How Your Thoughts Are Built & How You Can Shape Them | Dr. Jennifer Groh
Jennifer Groh: What goes on in our brains when we think might be that we're running simulations related to the thought, using that sensory-motor infrastructure of the brain.
Jennifer Groh：当我们思考时，我们的大脑中可能会发生什么，我们正在使用大脑的感觉运动基础设施来运行与该想法相关的模拟。
Andrew Huberman: Could you elaborate?
安德鲁·休伯曼：你能详细说明一下吗？
Jennifer Groh: So the theory is that maybe when you think about a cat, for example, or you think about the concept of a cat, the mental instantiation of that, or the brain mechanism instantiation of having that thought, is to run a little simulation in the visual cortex that kind of includes what a cat looks like.
Jennifer Groh：所以理论是，例如，当你想到一只猫，或者你想到猫的概念时，它的心理实例化，或者有这种想法的大脑机制实例化，就是在视觉皮层中进行一些模拟，其中包括猫的样子。
A simulation in the auditory cortex, what does a cat sound like?
听觉皮层的模拟，猫的声音是什么样的？
And as I'm telling you this, I've used the word cat.
当我告诉你这一点时，我使用了“猫”这个词。
What color cat are you thinking?
你在想什么颜色的猫？
Andrew Huberman: I'm thinking of a gray cat, but I keep smelling kitty litter.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我想到了一只灰猫，但我一直闻到猫砂的味道。
Jennifer Groh: Okay.
詹妮弗·格罗：好的。
Andrew Huberman: Because my sister had cats, and it drove me...
安德鲁·休伯曼：因为我姐姐养猫，这驱使我......
The smell of kitty litter is just so aversive to me.
猫砂的气味让我感到非常厌恶。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
And so, you had no hesitation in telling me the color and adding an additional sensory quality.
因此，您毫不犹豫地告诉我颜色并添加额外的感官质量。
It provides an explanation for why you might be driving on the freeway and having to merge into difficult traffic, and telling your passenger, "Okay, be quiet, I have to pay attention now." Like, why would speech impair you from visual-motor if it wasn't all part of a kind of cognitive system that's in operation, and maybe you need to shift some resources away from processing the conversation and towards actually dealing with the here-and-now sensory-motor task?
它解释了为什么您可能在高速公路上行驶并不得不汇入拥堵的交通，并告诉您的乘客：“好吧，安静，我现在必须集中注意力。”比如，如果言语不是正在运行的认知系统的一部分，为什么言语会损害你的视觉运动，也许你需要将一些资源从处理对话转移到实际处理此时此地的感觉运动任务？
Andrew Huberman: Hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
Andrew Huberman：欢迎来到 Huberman 实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
Andrew Huberman: I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，我是斯坦福大学医学院的神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. Jennifer Groh.
今天我的嘉宾是詹妮弗·格罗博士。
Dr. Jennifer Groh is a professor of psychology and neuroscience at Duke University.
Jennifer Groh 博士是杜克大学心理学和神经科学教授。
Her laboratory studies how our brain represents the world around us.
她的实验室研究我们的大脑如何代表我们周围的世界。
Andrew Huberman: In particular, how our different senses are merged in the brain so that we can focus and learn more effectively, including how our eye movements fundamentally shape not just what we pay attention to, but how they dynamically control what our brain is capable of.
Andrew Huberman：特别是，我们的不同感官如何在大脑中融合，以便我们能够更有效地集中注意力和学习，包括我们的眼球运动如何从根本上塑造我们所关注的内容，以及它们如何动态控制我们大脑的能力。
What she shares is fundamental to understanding how your brain works and also how best to focus on and learn different types of information.
她分享的内容对于理解大脑如何工作以及如何最好地关注和学习不同类型的信息至关重要。
Not just information that you might read on a page, although including that, but also what you hear, what you remember, and the very thoughts you have about your life experiences.
不仅仅是您可能在页面上读到的信息（尽管包括这些），还包括您听到的内容、您记住的内容以及您对生活经历的想法。
Andrew Huberman: We also discuss thinking itself.
Andrew Huberman：我们还讨论思维本身。
In fact, we discuss what thoughts really are.
事实上，我们讨论的是想法到底是什么。
And there, Dr. Groh shares with us what is perhaps the clearest and most useful definition of what thoughts are and how you can control them.
在那里，格罗博士与我们分享了关于什么是思想以及如何控制它们的最清晰、最有用的定义。
As someone who has been in the field of neuroscience for nearly three decades, I must say that her explanation of what thinking is at the neural level, at the psychological level, and at the experiential level is the most compelling and useful one I've ever come across.
作为一个在神经科学领域工作了近三十年的人，我必须说，她对什么是神经层面、心理层面和经验层面的思维的解释是我见过的最引人注目和最有用的解释。
Andrew Huberman: Today, Dr. Groh explains how to use your experiences, the information you encounter, and knowledge of how thoughts are built up in the brain to become a better thinker and indeed smarter.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：今天，格罗博士解释了如何利用你的经验、你遇到的信息以及关于思想如何在大脑中建立的知识来成为一个更好的思考者，甚至更聪明。
I'm certain that the information you'll learn from Dr. Groh today is not like any other discussion you've heard about the brain or psychology.
我确信您今天从格罗博士那里学到的信息与您听过的有关大脑或心理学的任何其他讨论都不一样。
I'm also certain that it will be extremely useful for anyone wishing to better understand how the brain works, how their thoughts and emotions arise, and anyone who wants to get better at learning, thinking more deeply, or simply experiencing life with more richness.
我还确信，对于任何希望更好地了解大脑如何工作、思想和情绪如何产生的人，以及任何想要更好地学习、更深入地思考或只是简单地体验更丰富的生活的人来说，这都将非常有用。
Andrew Huberman: Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
Andrew Huberman：在我们开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Jennifer Groh.
现在我与 Jennifer Groh 博士进行了讨论。
Andrew Huberman: Dr. Jennifer Groh, welcome.
安德鲁·休伯曼：詹妮弗·格罗博士，欢迎。
Jennifer Groh: Thank you.
詹妮弗·格罗：谢谢。
It's great to be here.
很高兴来到这里。
Andrew Huberman: We've never had a proper conversation on this podcast about sensory integration.
Andrew Huberman：我们从未在这个播客上就感觉统合进行过适当的对话。
We've talked about vision, talked a little bit about hearing, a little bit about touch, smell, and taste, but we've never talked about how the senses come together, and that's critical to everyday life, critical to perception.
我们讨论过视觉，讨论过一点听觉，讨论过一点触觉、嗅觉和味觉，但我们从未讨论过感官如何结合在一起，而这对于日常生活、感知至关重要。
Jennifer Groh: Absolutely.
詹妮弗·格罗：当然。
Andrew Huberman: I know you've focused perhaps mainly on the auditory system, but you really are an auditory-visual integration person.
Andrew Huberman：我知道您可能主要关注听觉系统，但您确实是一个听觉视觉整合的人。
I know this because I've followed your work for a number of years.
我知道这一点是因为我多年来一直关注你的工作。
So where in the brain do our eyes and our ears first come together to impact our perception of life?
那么，我们的眼睛和耳朵首先在大脑的哪个位置共同影响我们对生活的感知呢？
Like, the tea kettle is whistling, or we hear a knock on the door.
比如，茶壶在吹口哨，或者我们听到敲门声。
We know where the door is, and we know where the tea kettle ought to be, but where do these things first collide?
我们知道门在哪里，也知道茶壶应该在哪里，但是这些东西首先在哪里发生碰撞呢？
Jennifer Groh: The story that is triggered by that question is a little bit long, so maybe I can start at the beginning of when I first got interested in this question.
Jennifer Groh：这个问题引发的故事有点长，所以也许我可以从我第一次对这个问题感兴趣的时候开始。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: And so I was a college student.
Jennifer Groh：所以我是一名大学生。
I was interested in neuroscience, but we didn't have a neuroscience major, so a couple of us talked a professor into offering a seminar in neuroethology, and kind of what he thought were sort of the coolest findings in neuroscience.
我对神经科学感兴趣，但我们没有神经科学专业，所以我们几个人说服一位教授举办神经行为学研讨会，他认为这是神经科学领域最酷的发现。
And in that class, I learned about a study showing that...
在那堂课上，我了解到一项研究表明......
And I'm going to begin with the neuroscience nerdy lingo, and then we'll unpack it.
我将从神经科学的书呆子行话开始，然后我们将解开它。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: That there's a brain structure called the superior colliculus that's responsive to both visual and auditory stimuli, and that the responses to auditory stimuli depended on where the eyes were looking.
詹妮弗·格罗：有一种叫做上丘的大脑结构，它对视觉和听觉刺激都有反应，而对听觉刺激的反应取决于眼睛看向哪里。
If you moved the eyes, the neurons' receptive field, the region in space where they were responsive to, would shift as the eyes moved.
如果你移动眼睛，神经元的感受野（它们反应的空间区域）会随着眼睛的移动而变化。
And that blew my mind.
这让我大吃一惊。
I could not get that out of my head, and it kind of set me on the track that I've been on ever since then.
我无法摆脱这一点，这让我走上了从那时起就一直走的轨道。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: One of the things that was really interesting to me about it is that figuring out where a sound is with respect to where the eyes are looking is something that would be easy for us to do with a pencil and paper.
Jennifer Groh：对我来说真正有趣的一件事是，我们用铅笔和纸就可以轻松地找出声音相对于眼睛所看位置的位置。
You know, it's very simple math.
你知道，这是非常简单的数学。
If you know that the sound is located, say, 10 degrees to the right, and your eyes are looking 10 degrees to the left, then that tells you that the sound is 20 degrees to the right of where your eyes are.
如果您知道声音位于右侧 10 度，并且您的眼睛向左看 10 度，那么就告诉您声音位于您眼睛所在位置右侧 20 度。
Really not that hard to do.
确实没那么难做到。
Jennifer Groh: But from what I knew at that point about how the brain represents this kind of spatial information, it seemed a big puzzle for how the brain might actually create these kinds of moving representations of where the sound is located.
詹妮弗·格罗：但根据我当时对大脑如何表示这种空间信息的了解，大脑如何真正创建这些声音所在位置的移动表示似乎是一个很大的谜题。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, because what you're talking about are dynamic maps.
Andrew Huberman：是的，因为你所说的是动态地图。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Like, I think most people probably appreciate that we have a map of our body's surface, a so-called homunculus.
安德鲁·休伯曼：就像，我想大多数人可能会意识到我们有一张身体表面的地图，即所谓的小人。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Jennifer Groh: Yep.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And so if one were to stimulate a given region of the brain, you would have the illusion of being touched at that location on the body.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：因此，如果刺激大脑的某一特定区域，你就会产生一种错觉，感觉身体的那个位置被触摸了。
People perhaps have seen that the more sensitive an area of the body, like the fingertips or lips or face or feet, the larger the representation in the brain.
人们也许已经发现，身体的某个区域越敏感，比如指尖、嘴唇、脸部或脚，在大脑中的表征就越大。
But what you're talking about is shifting maps depending on where the eyes move, and the eyes move quite a lot.
但你所说的是根据眼睛移动的位置来移动地图，而且眼睛移动的次数相当多。
Jennifer Groh: They move quite a lot, exactly, and mostly we're not aware of this.
詹妮弗·格罗（Jennifer Groh）：他们确实移动了很多，而且大多数情况下我们都没有意识到这一点。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Right?
詹妮弗·格罗：对吗？
But if you think about it, every time your eyes move, the visual scene is shifting massively on the retina.
但如果你仔细想想，每次你的眼睛移动时，视网膜上的视觉场景都会发生巨大的变化。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: But we don't even notice this.
Jennifer Groh：但我们甚至没有注意到这一点。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: And this is an indication that the brain is doing a ton of computation under the hood to give us that perceptual experience.
Jennifer Groh：这表明大脑正在幕后进行大量计算，为我们提供感知体验。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Because if we were just representing reality, the reality would be these massively shifting, smeared visual scenes.
詹妮弗·格罗：因为如果我们只是代表现实，那么现实将是这些巨大变化、模糊的视觉场景。
Andrew Huberman: One thing that's so intriguing to me about the auditory system and the visual system, is the extent to which they can contract and dilate so fast.
Andrew Huberman：关于听觉系统和视觉系统，令我如此感兴趣的一件事是它们能够如此快速地收缩和扩张的程度。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: So for instance, if I'm walking to get on public transportation of some sort, like a light rail or a subway, there's sound going by me, it may or may not be relevant, but at some point, I sit down.
Andrew Huberman：例如，如果我步行去乘坐某种公共交通工具，例如轻轨或地铁，有声音从我身边经过，它可能相关，也可能不相关，但在某些时候，我会坐下来。
Chances are, I open up a book or a computer, or these days, people go into their phone.
很可能，我打开一本书或一台电脑，或者现在，人们打开他们的手机。
And we say "into the phone" because there's a lot of sensory information there, but our visual world and our auditory world just go into a small box.
我们说“进入手机”是因为那里有很多感官信息，但我们的视觉世界和听觉世界只是进入一个小盒子。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: And we expect whatever we're looking at to relate to the sounds that we're hearing in that small box.
Andrew Huberman：我们希望我们看到的任何东西都与我们在那个小盒子里听到的声音相关。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: But if somebody says, "Excuse me, do you have a ticket?" You know to look up.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但是如果有人说：“对不起，你有票吗？”你知道要抬头看。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: We take this for granted.
Andrew Huberman：我们认为这是理所当然的。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Like most people might think, "Of course you look up." Like, the sound is coming from over there.
安德鲁·休伯曼：就像大多数人可能想的那样，“你当然会抬头看。”好像，声音是从那边传来的。
It's now a person.
现在是一个人了。
But all of a sudden, we can remap our visual-auditory world and all the context in milliseconds.
但突然之间，我们可以在几毫秒内重新映射我们的视觉听觉世界和所有背景。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: So is that all happening, and we've been talking about the superior colliculus in this structure, the superior colliculus, below our neocortex, meaning is it below our kind of conscious awareness?
Andrew Huberman：那么这一切都发生了吗？我们一直在谈论这个结构中的上丘，上丘位于我们的新皮质下方，这意味着它位于我们的意识之下吗？
Jennifer Groh: You know, gosh, I wish we knew where conscious awareness was.
Jennifer Groh：你知道，天哪，我希望我们知道意识在哪里。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: I think that's an open question.
Jennifer Groh：我认为这是一个悬而未决的问题。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: And the superior colliculus is important in this story because that's where the research began.
Jennifer Groh：上丘在这个故事中很重要，因为那是研究的起点。
It's not that that's where the binding of visual and auditory space is necessarily fully contained there and only there.
这并不是说视觉和听觉空间的结合必然完全包含在那里并且仅在那里。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: I think it's a much bigger problem, and I think what you're describing is kind of another version of this kind of capturing of or integrating or connecting the information from one sensory system to another.
Jennifer Groh：我认为这是一个更大的问题，我认为你所描述的是这种捕获或集成或连接从一个感觉系统到另一个感觉系统的信息的另一种版本。
That kind of shifting your resources around is something that happens in a few different contexts, like what you're describing.
这种资源转移会在几种不同的情况下发生，就像你所描述的那样。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: And I think one of the things that's really interesting about the phone, or really any screen where you're watching a video, is that the sound was never coming directly from the screen where you're looking at the visual image.
詹妮弗·格罗：我认为手机或任何您正在观看视频的屏幕真正有趣的事情之一是，声音永远不会直接来自您正在观看视觉图像的屏幕。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: You know, it's coming from somewhere else.
Jennifer Groh：你知道，它来自其他地方。
Maybe you've got earbuds in, and it's coming from the earbuds.
也许您已经戴上了耳塞，并且声音来自耳塞。
Maybe the earbud signal is simulating what the location should be if it was really coming from the screen, but it's a simulation.
如果耳机信号真的来自屏幕，也许耳机信号正在模拟位置应该是什么，但这只是模拟。
It's not actually reality.
这实际上不是现实。
Andrew Huberman: Oh, yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哦，是的。
That's so interesting.
那太有趣了。
So yeah, let's unpack this a bit.
所以，是的，让我们稍微解开一下。
So we merge what we see with what we hear if it makes sense to merge them.
因此，如果合并有意义的话，我们会将所看到的与所听到的合并起来。
Jennifer Groh: Yep.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: Like, lips are moving.
安德鲁·休伯曼：就像，嘴唇在动。
Jennifer Groh: Lips are moving.
Jennifer Groh：嘴唇在动。
Andrew Huberman: And that's in our hand, about a foot in front of us.
Andrew Huberman：它就在我们手中，距离我们大约一英尺。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: But the sounds are coming in elsewhere.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但是声音来自其他地方。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: This is very different than, say, if somebody's mouth were moving and the sounds coming out of it were offset by even the tiniest bit of time.
Andrew Huberman：这与某人的嘴巴在移动并且发出的声音被哪怕是最微小的时间所抵消是非常不同的。
It looks weird.
看起来很奇怪。
Jennifer Groh: It looks totally weird.
Jennifer Groh：看起来很奇怪。
Andrew Huberman: It looks totally weird.
安德鲁·休伯曼：看起来很奇怪。
Like, this video-
比如这个视频——
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: It's uncomfortable.
詹妮弗·格罗：这很不舒服。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, somebody ripped this video from the internet, and there's a time delay.
Andrew Huberman：是的，有人从互联网上盗取了这段视频，并且有时间延迟。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: But we easily merge what we see with sounds.
Andrew Huberman：但是我们很容易将所看到的与声音融合在一起。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: That's right.
詹妮弗·格罗：没错。
Andrew Huberman: But maybe talk about this, because now I'm realizing, if I sit and watch a movie in a movie theater or on a big screen or on my computer, the sound is not coming from the screen.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但也许可以谈谈这个，因为现在我意识到，如果我坐在电影院、大屏幕或电脑上看电影，声音不是来自屏幕。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: It's coming from a speaker, which is projecting vertically.
Andrew Huberman：它来自一个垂直投影的扬声器。
Jennifer Groh: Yes.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: How does that work?
安德鲁·休伯曼：这是如何运作的？
Jennifer Groh: Well, not only that, but the sound is jumping around in your perception as different people on the screen from different locations on the screen are speaking.
Jennifer Groh：嗯，不仅如此，当屏幕上不同位置的不同人在说话时，声音会在你的感知中跳跃。
Andrew Huberman: Right, and they're both coming in through your ears or through the speaker.
Andrew Huberman：是的，它们都是通过你的耳朵或扬声器传入的。
Jennifer Groh: Whatever means the sound is being delivered to you is not changing as the different people are speaking.
Jennifer Groh：无论声音传递给你意味着什么，都不会随着不同的人说话而改变。
Andrew Huberman: Right, so let's say a dialogue on a screen between two characters and then maybe there's an explosion in the background, or another character walks in the room, that the source of the sound for us, whether it's a computer or speakers in the room or a movie theater or earbuds, is always constant, but we can quickly move the sound with our eyes, or our eyes move the sound with our ears?
Andrew Huberman：对，假设两个角色在屏幕上进行对话，然后背景中可能发生爆炸，或者另一个角色在房间里走动，那么我们的声音来源，无论是房间里的电脑、扬声器、电影院还是耳塞，总是恒定的，但我们可以用眼睛快速移动声音，或者我们的眼睛用耳朵移动声音？
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Let me amend a little bit here because it depends a lot on how the sound is mixed.
让我在这里稍微修改一下，因为这很大程度上取决于声音的混合方式。
They can put in some spatial cues, but if they haven't done that, then what we just said applies.
他们可以放入一些空间线索，但如果他们没有这样做，那么我们刚才所说的就适用。
And I think some of my favorite videos for really appreciating this are videos of actual ventriloquists working with their puppets.
我认为我最喜欢的一些真正欣赏这一点的视频是真正的口技表演者与他们的木偶一起工作的视频。
Jennifer Groh: Because there they are, the puppeteer is speaking, and they're making it seem like the puppet is speaking, and they're making our perception switch back and forth from their own face to the puppet face, back and forth, depending on what they're actually saying.
詹妮弗·格罗：因为他们在那里，木偶师在说话，他们让木偶看起来像是在说话，他们让我们的感知从他们自己的脸来回切换到木偶脸，来回切换，这取决于他们实际上在说什么。
Andrew Huberman: So this is a ventriloquist that says, "Hey, Cornelius, how are you?" And then Cornelius says...
安德鲁·胡伯曼：所以这是一个口技表演者说：“嘿，科尼利厄斯，你好吗？”然后科尼利厄斯说……
But the same person says, "I'm doing great," you know?
但同一个人却说：“我做得很好，”你知道吗？
Jennifer Groh: Yes.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
So one of these days I've got to learn to do this.
所以有一天我必须学会这样做。
Andrew Huberman: And they probably move their lips a little less when they do that?
Andrew Huberman：当他们这样做时，他们的嘴唇移动可能会少一些？
Jennifer Groh: Yeah, they try to speak like this without moving their lips too much.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的，他们试图像这样说话，但嘴唇不会移动太多。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: And they sometimes will do a trick of, like...
詹妮弗·格罗：他们有时会做一些把戏，比如……
There are certain sounds that you just cannot make without closing your lips in front, and that's really hard to fool people about.
有些声音是你不闭上嘴唇就无法发出的，而且这真的很难欺骗别人。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: So, for example, if it's a word that begins with a B or has a B in it, they might subtly just cover their mouth a little bit while they're making that B sound so that it's a kind of misdirection like a magician would do to sort of keep you from attending too much to the ventriloquist and throw your attention over to the puppet.
詹妮弗·格罗：举个例子，如果这是一个以 B 开头或其中有 B 的单词，他们在发出 B 音时可能会巧妙地稍微捂住嘴，这样就像魔术师那样进行误导，以防止您过多关注口技表演者并将注意力转移到木偶上。
Jennifer Groh: So our perception can switch back and forth between where our brains are telling us, "This is the most likely candidate for the source of this sound, so I'm going to override what my ears are telling me to perceive the sound as coming from here versus here."
詹妮弗·格罗：所以我们的感知可以在大脑告诉我们的位置之间来回切换，“这是最有可能的声音来源，所以我将忽略我的耳朵告诉我的声音是来自这里还是这里。”
Andrew Huberman: Is this something we learn during development?
Andrew Huberman：这是我们在开发过程中学到的东西吗？
Jennifer Groh: Partly, yes.
Jennifer Groh：部分是的。
Andrew Huberman: Like, do kids come into the world understanding how to merge sight and sound, or is that a learned phenomenon?
安德鲁·休伯曼：比如，孩子们来到这个世界时是否了解如何融合视觉和声音，或者这是一种习得的现象？
Jennifer Groh: Absolutely.
詹妮弗·格罗：当然。
Jennifer Groh: It has to be learned, and it has to be continuously updated during the course of development until you reach your adult body size.
Jennifer Groh：它必须学习，并且必须在发育过程中不断更新，直到达到成年体型。
So let me back up a little bit and talk about how we localize sound, especially when we're not talking about screens and videos and movies and whatnot, but just out there in the real world.
因此，让我稍微回顾一下我们如何定位声音，特别是当我们谈论的不是屏幕、视频和电影之类的东西，而是现实世界中的声音时。
Jennifer Groh: The way we tell where a sound is coming from is by the physics of the world causing differential delays for the sound to arrive at one ear versus the other.
Jennifer Groh：我们判断声音来自何处的方式是通过世界的物理原理导致声音到达一只耳朵与另一只耳朵的延迟差异。
So sound takes a certain amount of time.
所以声音需要一定的时间。
You know, a sound coming from over here will get to this ear before it gets to this ear, and it'll be slightly louder in this ear than in this one.
你知道，从这边传来的声音会在到达这只耳朵之前到达这只耳朵，而且这只耳朵中的声音会比这只耳朵中的声音稍大一些。
Andrew Huberman: Because it's just closer to that ear.
Andrew Huberman：因为它离那只耳朵更近。
Jennifer Groh: It's closer, but also there's a kind of acoustic shadow cast by the head.
Jennifer Groh：更近了，但头部也有一种声学阴影。
Andrew Huberman: Mm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Jennifer Groh: So the sound wave has to kind of come and then go around, and there's a little sort of dip in the sound intensity cast by the shadow of the head.
詹妮弗·格罗（Jennifer Groh）：所以声波必须先来后绕行，头部的阴影投射的声音强度会略有下降。
I like to think about the timing cues because they're really easy to calculate.
我喜欢考虑时间线索，因为它们很容易计算。
So if you know how far apart your ears are, and you know what the speed of sound is, then you can figure out what the delay is for the sound to reach this ear after this ear.
因此，如果您知道您的耳朵相距多远，并且您知道声速是多少，那么您就可以算出声音在经过此耳之后到达此耳的延迟是多少。
Andrew Huberman: Mm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Jennifer Groh: I often take off my glasses to measure the distance between my two ears that way.
Jennifer Groh：我经常摘下眼镜来测量两耳之间的距离。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: And it's something like about a half a millisecond, is the largest delay you can experience.
Jennifer Groh：大约半毫秒左右，是您可以经历的最大延迟。
Andrew Huberman: Half a millisecond.
安德鲁·休伯曼：半毫秒。
Jennifer Groh: Half a millisecond.
Jennifer Groh：半毫秒。
So this is tiny, and that is for the difference between a sound here versus a sound here.
所以这是很小的，这是这里的声音和这里的声音之间的区别。
Andrew Huberman: So something from your right versus from your left.
Andrew Huberman：所以有些东西来自你的右边，有些东西来自你的左边。
Jennifer Groh: Exactly.
詹妮弗·格罗：没错。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Jennifer Groh: We can obviously detect much smaller sound separations than just totally left versus totally right.
Jennifer Groh：我们显然可以检测到比完全左与完全右更小的声音分离。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: So it's an incredible feat of computational power by the brain.
Jennifer Groh：所以这是大脑计算能力的一项令人难以置信的壮举。
I think maybe we should tell the audience why your brow is furrowed, and I'm excited about this.
我想也许我们应该告诉观众为什么你皱着眉头，我对此感到很兴奋。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Because half a millisecond is less than the duration of a single action potential.
Jennifer Groh：因为半毫秒小于单个动作电位的持续时间。
Andrew Huberman: Right, and we should just remind people, action potentials are the electrical signals that neurons use to communicate with one another.
Andrew Huberman：是的，我们应该提醒人们，动作电位是神经元用来相互交流的电信号。
These are the fundamental ways in which our brain works.
这些是我们大脑工作的基本方式。
Without these, we're dead.
没有这些，我们就死定了。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Jennifer Groh: It's the fundamental medium of communication in the nervous system, as you say.
Jennifer Groh：正如你所说，它是神经系统中沟通的基本媒介。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: So it would seem totally weird for us to be able to process sensory information that is faster than the duration of that minimum increment of firing.
詹妮弗·格罗（Jennifer Groh）：因此，对于我们来说，能够处理比最小放电增量持续时间更快的感官信息似乎是完全奇怪的。
You know, there's some research about how exactly this can be done, and it involves things like lots of neurons firing together and really precise synapses that cause minimal delay and very high temporal precision as the signals are going from one neuron to the next.
你知道，有一些研究是关于如何准确地做到这一点的，它涉及大量神经元一起放电和真正精确的突触，当信号从一个神经元传递到下一个神经元时，这些突触会产生最小的延迟和非常高的时间精度。
Andrew Huberman: Glucose is a key player in how our body functions, not just in the long term, but in every moment of our lives.
Andrew Huberman：葡萄糖是我们身体机能的关键角色，不仅从长远来看，而且在我们生命中的每时每刻。
That's because it is the major fuel for our cells, especially our brain cells.
那是因为它是我们细胞，尤其是脑细胞的主要燃料。
Glucose directly impacts our brain function, mood, and energy levels, and it may even affect our levels of tenacity and willpower.
葡萄糖直接影响我们的大脑功能、情绪和能量水平，甚至可能影响我们的坚韧和意志力水平。
This is why I use the continuous glucose monitor (CGM) from Lingo.
这就是我使用 Lingo 的连续血糖监测仪 (CGM) 的原因。
I absolutely love it, and I'm thrilled to have them as a sponsor of the podcast.
我非常喜欢它，我很高兴他们成为播客的赞助商。
Andrew Huberman: Lingo helps me track my glucose in real time to see how the foods I eat and the actions I take impact my glucose.
Andrew Huberman：Lingo 帮助我实时跟踪我的血糖，以了解我吃的食物和我采取的行动如何影响我的血糖。
When glucose in your body spikes or crashes, your cognitive and physical performance do, too.
当您体内的葡萄糖激增或崩溃时，您的认知和身体表现也会随之上升或下降。
In fact, large glucose peaks and valleys lead to brain fog, fatigue, irritability, and hunger.
事实上，大的葡萄糖峰值和谷值会导致脑雾、疲劳、烦躁和饥饿。
What you eat, of course, plays a major role in your glucose.
当然，你吃的东西对你的血糖起着重要作用。
Some foods cause sharp spikes and big crashes, and others do not.
有些食物会导致急剧的峰值和严重的崩溃，而另一些则不会。
But not everyone is the same in terms of how they respond to particular foods.
但并不是每个人对特定食物的反应都是一样的。
Andrew Huberman: Seeing your glucose in real time helps you build eating and other habits that support metabolic health, mental clarity, and sustained energy.
Andrew Huberman：实时查看您的血糖可以帮助您养成饮食和其他习惯，从而支持代谢健康、思维清晰和持续精力充沛。
Lingo has helped me to better understand what foods to eat, when to eat, and how things like a brief walk after a meal can help keep my glucose stable, and much more.
Lingo 帮助我更好地了解该吃什么食物、何时吃以及饭后短暂散步等活动如何帮助我保持血糖稳定等等。
If you'd like to try Lingo, Lingo is offering Huberman Podcast listeners in the US 10% off a four-week Lingo plan.
如果您想尝试 Lingo，Lingo 将为美国的 Huberman 播客听众提供为期 4 周的 Lingo 计划 10% 的折扣。
Terms and conditions apply.
条款和条件适用。
Visit hellolingo.com/huberman for more information.
请访问 hellolingo.com/huberman 了解更多信息。
Andrew Huberman: Today's episode is also brought to us by Wealthfront.
Andrew Huberman：今天的节目也是由 Wealthfront 为我们带来的。
In today's financial landscape of constant market shifts and chaotic news, it's easy to feel uncertain about where to keep your money.
在当今市场不断变化、新闻混乱的金融环境中，人们很容易不确定该把钱放在哪里。
However, saving and investing does not have to be complicated.
然而，储蓄和投资并不一定很复杂。
There's a solution that can help you take control of your finances while still managing risk, and that's Wealthfront.
有一种解决方案可以帮助您控制财务，同时仍然管理风险，这就是 Wealthfront。
I've trusted Wealthfront with my finances for nearly a decade.
近十年来，我一直信任 Wealthfront 来管理我的财务。
Andrew Huberman: With the Wealthfront cash account, I can earn 3.5% annual percentage yield, or APY, on my cash from program banks, and I know my money is growing until I'm ready to spend it or invest it.
Andrew Huberman：通过 Wealthfront 现金账户，我可以从计划银行获得 3.5% 的年收益率 (APY)，而且我知道我的钱会不断增长，直到我准备好消费或投资。
One of the features I love about Wealthfront is that I have access to instant, no-fee withdrawals to eligible accounts 24/7.
我喜欢 Wealthfront 的功能之一是我可以 24/7 即时、免费提款到符合条件的账户。
That means I can move my money where I need it without waiting, and when I'm ready to transition from saving to investing, Wealthfront lets me seamlessly transfer my funds into one of their expert-built portfolios.
这意味着我可以将资金转移到需要的地方，而无需等待，当我准备好从储蓄过渡到投资时，Wealthfront 可以让我无缝地将资金转移到他们专家构建的投资组合之一。
Andrew Huberman: For a limited time, Wealthfront is offering new clients an additional .65% boost over the base rate for three months, meaning you can get up to 4.15% variable APY on up to $150,000 in deposits.
Andrew Huberman：在有限的时间内，Wealthfront 为新客户提供三个月内比基本利率额外 0.65% 的提升，这意味着您最多可在 150,000 美元的存款中获得高达 4.15% 的可变年利率。
More than one million people already trust Wealthfront to save more, earn more, and build long-term wealth with confidence.
已有超过一百万人相信 Wealthfront 能够满怀信心地储蓄更多、赚取更多收入并建立长期财富。
If you'd like to try Wealthfront, go to wealthfront.com/huberman to receive the boosted APY offer and start earning 4.15% variable APY today.
如果您想尝试 Wealthfront，请访问 Wealthfront.com/huberman 获取提升 APY 优惠，并立即开始赚取 4.15% 的可变 APY。
Andrew Huberman: That's wealthfront.com/huberman to get started.
Andrew Huberman：请从 Fortunefront.com/huberman 开始。
This is a paid testimonial of Wealthfront.
这是 Wealthfront 的付费推荐。
Client experiences will vary.
客户体验会有所不同。
Wealthfront brokerage is not a bank.
Wealthfront 经纪公司不是银行。
The base APY is as of November 7th, 2025, and is subject to change.
基本 APY 截至 2025 年 11 月 7 日，可能会发生变化。
For more information, please see the episode description.
欲了解更多信息，请参阅剧集描述。
Andrew Huberman: So, if my finger snaps with my right hand, which is what I just did, intuitively, I know that it's my right hand because I did it.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：所以，如果我的右手打响了手指（这就是我刚才所做的），直觉上我知道那是我的右手，因为我做到了。
But my brain expects that sound to arrive more quickly to my right ear than my left ear.
但我的大脑预计声音会比左耳更快地到达我的右耳。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: And yet, for things directly in front of me, right at my nose, the idea that it's right in front of me, let's say, with my eyes closed, I know to look in front of me.
安德鲁·休伯曼：然而，对于直接在我面前、就在我鼻子旁的事物，它就在我面前的想法，让我们说，闭上眼睛，我知道看着我的面前。
I know to expect it in front of me once I open my eyes.
我知道，一旦我睁开眼睛，它就在我面前。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: Are there conditions where we think we hear something from one location, but it's actually arising from another location that's outside an experimental context?
Andrew Huberman：是否存在这样的情况：我们认为我们从一个位置听到了一些声音，但实际上它是从实验环境之外的另一个位置产生的？
Jennifer Groh: Absolutely.
詹妮弗·格罗：当然。
So if you have hearing loss in one ear only, then it's very difficult to localize sound.
因此，如果您只有一只耳朵有听力损失，那么很难定位声音。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Jennifer Groh: It's not completely impossible.
Jennifer Groh：这并非完全不可能。
You would imagine that it would be completely impossible if the hearing loss was complete and if this timing difference and level difference were the only cues that we use.
你可能会想象，如果听力完全丧失，并且时间差异和电平差异是我们使用的唯一线索，那么这将是完全不可能的。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: But actually, the ear has these little folds in them, and the folds filter the sound as it comes in and in particular, it alters the frequency content of the sound.
Jennifer Groh：但实际上，耳朵里有这些小褶皱，这些褶皱会过滤进入的声音，特别是它会改变声音的频率内容。
Andrew Huberman: Really?
安德鲁·休伯曼：真的吗？
So these little dimples inside my ears are useful for something.
所以我耳朵里的这些小酒窝是有用的。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: They're useful, and your ears are different than my ears.
Jennifer Groh：它们很有用，而且你的耳朵和我的耳朵不同。
Andrew Huberman: Hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Jennifer Groh: And so you are going to be expecting a slightly different kind of fingerprint of what the sound sounds like as a function of location than I would be.
Jennifer Groh：所以你会期待一个与我所期待的声音指纹作为位置函数略有不同的指纹。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Do people with damage to their ears have issues hearing?
Andrew Huberman：耳朵受损的人会出现听力问题吗？
Jennifer Groh: Have issues with that?
Jennifer Groh：对此有疑问吗？
Andrew Huberman: I mean, it sounds like they sort of must.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我的意思是，听起来他们有点必须。
But like the people I know that roll jiu-jitsu, the wrestlers, their ears are always beat up.
但就像我认识的柔术选手、摔跤手一样，他们的耳朵总是被打肿。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Oh.
詹妮弗·格罗：哦。
Jennifer Groh: They're mashed.
Jennifer Groh：它们被捣碎了。
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman: They basically don't have these folds.
Andrew Huberman：他们基本上没有这些褶皱。
It's just kind of-
这只是有点-
Jennifer Groh: Flattened?
詹妮弗·格罗：扁平化？
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Interesting.
詹妮弗·格罗：有趣。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Jennifer Groh: I don't know of any studies, but I think we can predict from first principles that they would have an initial deficit, and that very likely they would learn to adapt, and they would kind of learn their new set of ears and what particular frequency pattern to expect from that.
詹妮弗·格罗：我不知道有什么研究，但我认为我们可以从第一原理预测他们会有最初的缺陷，而且他们很可能会学会适应，他们会学习他们的新耳朵以及从中期望什么特定的频率模式。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: If the auditory system is so sensitive, why is it that I don't really hear my own voice?
Andrew Huberman：如果听觉系统如此敏感，为什么我听不到自己的声音？
Jennifer Groh: Mm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Or if I talk out one side of my mouth, I sort of know I'm doing it, but it doesn't throw me off.
安德鲁·休伯曼：或者，如果我用一侧嘴说话，我就知道我在这么做，但这并不会让我失望。
Jennifer Groh: Okay.
詹妮弗·格罗：好的。
Jennifer Groh: Doesn't sound quite right.
Jennifer Groh：听起来不太对劲。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
Andrew Huberman: Doesn't throw me off.
安德鲁·休伯曼：不会让我失望。
Andrew Huberman: And yet, most people have the experience of watching themselves or hearing themselves speak, and it feels awkward.
安德鲁·休伯曼：然而，大多数人都有过看着自己或听到自己说话的经历，感觉很尴尬。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: We don't really like it.
Andrew Huberman：我们不太喜欢它。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I suppose there are some people on the planet that like to hear themselves speak, but most people don't.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我想这个星球上有一些人喜欢听自己说话，但大多数人不喜欢。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Most people are not...
安德鲁·休伯曼：大多数人都不是……
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: It's like we cancel ourselves out while we speak.
Andrew Huberman：这就好像我们在说话时就取消了自己。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: But then when it's coming at us from the front, it's odd.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但是当它从前面向我们袭来时，这就很奇怪了。
Jennifer Groh: It's weird.
詹妮弗·格罗：这很奇怪。
Jennifer Groh: Do you like listening to this podcast, or do you-
Jennifer Groh：你喜欢听这个播客吗，或者你-
Andrew Huberman: Well, I listen to all the podcasts to see ways that I can improve.
Andrew Huberman：嗯，我听所有的播客来看看我可以改进的方法。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And I like the content that my guests bring on, and I like the topics.
Andrew Huberman：我喜欢我的嘉宾带来的内容，我喜欢这些话题。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: But it's an awkward feeling, isn't it?
Jennifer Groh：但这感觉很尴尬，不是吗？
Andrew Huberman: Oh, it's always awkward.
Andrew Huberman：哦，这总是很尴尬。
Jennifer Groh: To listen to yourself is very awkward.
Jennifer Groh：倾听自己的声音是非常尴尬的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, it's uncomfortable.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，这很不舒服。
Jennifer Groh: It's uncomfortable.
詹妮弗·格罗：这很不舒服。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah, yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的，是的。
Andrew Huberman: It's uncomfortable.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这很不舒服。
Jennifer Groh: Before I answer that question, which is a really interesting question, I want to loop back to the, 'Do we have to learn this?' The other thing to say about learning how to interpret the timing difference cues and the level difference cues, is that a baby's head is about half the width of an adult's head.
Jennifer Groh：在回答这个非常有趣的问题之前，我想回到“我们必须学习这个吗？”关于学习如何解释时间差异线索和水平差异线索的另一件事是，婴儿的头部大约是成人头部宽度的一半。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: So that means that that half-millisecond for me is a quarter of a millisecond for a baby, and it's going to change as they grow.
詹妮弗·格罗：这意味着对我来说半毫秒对婴儿来说就是四分之一毫秒，而且随着他们的成长，它会发生变化。
So that's why you have to do all this learning.
这就是为什么你必须进行所有这些学习。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: With respect to the question you just asked about why our voices sound weird, I can say more about why they sound weird and less about why we experience it as kind of unpleasant.
詹妮弗·格罗：关于你刚才问的为什么我们的声音听起来很奇怪的问题，我可以更多地谈论为什么它们听起来很奇怪，而不是为什么我们会感到不愉快。
Jennifer Groh: Maybe that weird and unpleasant connection is because we're just so used to the way we experience it, that to hear it recorded is going to be unfamiliar and strange.
詹妮弗·格罗：也许这种奇怪和不愉快的联系是因为我们已经习惯了我们体验它的方式，听到录音会感到陌生和陌生。
I think there are going to be three things.
我认为将会有三件事。
Number one, the recording is not going to capture the full spectrum of frequency content of your voice.
第一，录音不会捕获您声音的全部频率内容。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Number two, your brain has an active mechanism for manipulating the transduction of sound in your ears.
Jennifer Groh：第二，你的大脑有一个活跃的机制来操纵耳朵中的声音传导。
That is to say, the conversion of sound into a neural signal that's going to go into the brain.
也就是说，将声音转换成进入大脑的神经信号。
So your brain actually controls that process.
所以你的大脑实际上控制着这个过程。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: And there's some thinking that it's turning down the volume just before you speak so that you don't get blasted by the sound of your own voice.
Jennifer Groh：有人认为它会在你说话之前调低音量，这样你就不会被自己的声音震耳欲聋。
Andrew Huberman: Hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Jennifer Groh: If you think about it, if I were speaking at this volume with my mouth this far away from my ear, like if I was speaking at this volume from here, or somebody else was speaking at this volume from here, it'd be too loud.
詹妮弗·格罗（Jennifer Groh）：如果你想一想，如果我用距离耳朵这么远的音量说话，就像我从这里用这个音量说话，或者其他人从这里用这个音量说话，那就太大声了。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Right.
安德鲁·休伯曼：对。
Andrew Huberman: Got it.
安德鲁·休伯曼：明白了。
So for those just listening, Jenny's referring to...
所以对于那些只是听的人来说，珍妮指的是……
So the distance between your mouth and your ear is a very short one, and if someone were to speak into your ear at that distance, I suppose, unless they were telling you something you really wanted to hear, you would probably feel like, "Hey, get out of my personal space."
所以你的嘴和耳朵之间的距离非常短，如果有人在这个距离对着你的耳朵说话，我想，除非他们告诉你一些你真正想听的事情，否则你可能会觉得，“嘿，滚出我的个人空间。”
Jennifer Groh: You would want somebody to speak a little more softly.
Jennifer Groh：你会希望有人说话轻一点。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, and yet we're doing it all the time.
Andrew Huberman：是的，但我们一直在这样做。
Jennifer Groh: All the time.
詹妮弗·格罗：一直都是。
Andrew Huberman: It's just that we're projecting it outward.
Andrew Huberman：只是我们将其向外投射。
Jennifer Groh: Well, we're projecting it outward, and our brain is turning down the volume in anticipation of what we're saying.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯，我们正在向外投射它，我们的大脑正在调低音量以期待我们所说的内容。
Andrew Huberman: Hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Got it.
安德鲁·休伯曼：明白了。
Jennifer Groh: So potentially, it could be a very precisely timed volume knob that is going with each little word that I say.
Jennifer Groh：因此，它可能是一个非常精确定时的音量旋钮，与我所说的每个小词相匹配。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: So when the psychologists say that we can't speak and hear at the same time, they're 100% accurate?
Andrew Huberman：所以当心理学家说我们不能同时说和听时，他们是 100% 准确的吗？
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Probably.
詹妮弗·格罗：可能吧。
Andrew Huberman: We can't speak and hear correctly.
Andrew Huberman：我们不能正确地说话和听。
Jennifer Groh: We cannot.
詹妮弗·格罗：我们不能。
And then the third thing is that, this maybe goes back to the first point about the recording doesn't capture all of it, is that some of what we are picking up is actually through bone conduction.
第三件事是，这可能回到第一点，关于录音并没有捕获所有内容，我们拾取的一些内容实际上是通过骨传导的。
You may have bone conduction headphones.
您可能有骨传导耳机。
I certainly do.
我当然知道。
These are headphones that don't go over the ears.
这些是不戴在耳朵上的耳机。
They don't go in the ears.
它们不会进入耳朵。
Jennifer Groh: They're usually positioned right in front of the ears, delivering the vibration signals to the bone right in front of your ear, and that can get transmitted into your ears as well.
Jennifer Groh：它们通常位于耳朵前面，将振动信号传递到耳朵前面的骨头，并且振动信号也可以传输到您的耳朵中。
Andrew Huberman: You have these headphones?
安德鲁·休伯曼：你有这些耳机吗？
Jennifer Groh: I have these-
Jennifer Groh：我有这些-
Andrew Huberman: Why do you use these instead of in-ear earbud-
Andrew Huberman：你为什么使用这些而不是入耳式耳塞 -
Jennifer Groh: In-ear?
Jennifer Groh：入耳式？
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Because it leaves my ears open, so I can hear something else.
Jennifer Groh：因为它让我的耳朵张开，所以我可以听到其他声音。
So it's safer if you're out exercising somewhere where there might be traffic or something like that.
因此，如果您在可能有交通或类似情况的地方锻炼，会更安全。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I get a lot of questions about headphones and safety, and one thing that we resolved recently on the podcast, we had a guest on who is our chair of otolaryngology at Stanford, and she said that if your headphones are loud enough that somebody besides you can hear that there is a sound, not even the specific sounds, you are inflicting hearing damage.
Andrew Huberman：我收到了很多关于耳机和安全的问题，我们最近在播客上解决了一件事，我们邀请了一位嘉宾，她是我们斯坦福大学耳鼻喉科的主席，她说，如果你的耳机声音足够大，以至于除了你之外的人都可以听到有声音，甚至是特定的声音，那么你就会造成听力损伤。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: Probably permanent hearing loss at some level, that she sets a pretty low threshold for, kind of like, be careful, but it seems important given that we now know hearing loss is correlated with dementia.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：可能在某种程度上是永久性的听力损失，她设定了一个相当低的阈值，有点像，小心，但考虑到我们现在知道听力损失与痴呆症相关，这似乎很重要。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: It makes sense.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：这是有道理的。
Less sensory information comes in, the brain probably says, "Oh, well, there's less stuff coming in," and starts turning off circuits, and then memory goes, and attention goes, and there are other things, obviously, that can impact dementia.
传入的感觉信息较少，大脑可能会说，“哦，好吧，传入的东西较少”，然后开始关闭电路，然后记忆消失，注意力消失，显然还有其他因素会影响痴呆症。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: So it's interesting.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这很有趣。
The other question I get a lot is about the Bluetooth earphones.
我经常收到的另一个问题是关于蓝牙耳机的。
People want to know, are they safe?
人们想知道，他们安全吗？
Is it safe to have this Bluetooth arc in your ears?
将蓝牙弧带入您的耳朵安全吗？
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: In your ear.
Jennifer Groh：在你耳边。
Andrew Huberman: And we had a guest on here, Matt MacDougall, who is a neurosurgeon at Neuralink.
Andrew Huberman：我们这里有一位客人，Matt MacDougall，他是 Neuralink 的神经外科医生。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: They're big on Bluetooth at Neuralink.
Andrew Huberman：Neuralink 非常重视蓝牙技术。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: But he said that the amount of radiation coming from those Bluetooth headphones is considerably lower than the sort of radiation that you're exposed to all day, every day, so he wasn't concerned.
Andrew Huberman：但他说这些蓝牙耳机的辐射量远低于你每天整天接触的辐射量，所以他并不担心。
Jennifer Groh: Mm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Are you aware of any impact of heat?
Andrew Huberman：您知道热量的影响吗？
I'm not looking to go after EMF here if there isn't anything there.
如果那里没有任何东西，我不想在这里追寻 EMF。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: But of heat or of just having EMF around your ears.
Andrew Huberman：但是热量或者只是你耳朵周围有电磁场。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Around your ears.
Jennifer Groh：在你的耳朵周围。
Andrew Huberman: Given the sensitivity of the bone, I mean, I'm just amazed that you can pick up sound from the bone vibrations.
Andrew Huberman：考虑到骨骼的敏感性，我的意思是，我很惊讶你可以从骨骼振动中拾取声音。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I mean, this is a very sensitive neurosensory space, is what I'm realizing.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我的意思是，这是一个非常敏感的神经感觉空间，这是我所意识到的。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah
詹妮弗·格罗：是的
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
I do think that there are concerns about just how much sound exposure people are accumulating.
我确实认为人们对人们积累的声音暴露量感到担忧。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: If we live long enough, 80% of us will get hearing loss at some point in our lives.
Jennifer Groh：如果我们活得足够长，80% 的人都会在生命中的某个时刻出现听力损失。
Andrew Huberman: Bummer.
安德鲁·休伯曼：真糟糕。
Jennifer Groh: So it's a big problem.
Jennifer Groh：所以这是一个大问题。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: There's certainly concerns that young people are farther along on that trajectory to hearing loss than people from older generations were at a comparable age.
詹妮弗·格罗：当然有人担心，与同龄的老一代人相比，年轻人在听力损失方面走得更远。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Just because the earbuds are in from morning to night, and the volume is turned up loud enough to block out surrounding sound if you're in a loud environment.
Jennifer Groh：只是因为耳塞从早到晚都戴着，并且如果您处于嘈杂的环境中，音量会调到足够大以阻挡周围的声音。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: I would encourage people to give some consideration to noise-canceling headphones and to not have the volume be turned up too loud.
Jennifer Groh：我鼓励人们考虑使用降噪耳机，并且不要将音量调得太大。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
I'd like to talk about the experience of listening to something, music, let's say, through headphones versus in the room.
我想谈谈通过耳机听音乐和在房间里听音乐的体验。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: We don't think about it too often, but it's a totally different experience.
Andrew Huberman：我们不会经常考虑这个问题，但这是一种完全不同的体验。
In one case, you're hearing the sound in your head.
在一种情况下，您会听到脑海中的声音。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah, right.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的，对。
Andrew Huberman: Or even your phone on speaker versus wearing your earphones.
Andrew Huberman：或者甚至是使用扬声器与佩戴耳机的手机。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: The person's voice or the music is in your head as opposed to in the room.
Andrew Huberman：人的声音或音乐在你的脑海中，而不是在房间里。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: And once you think about this difference, I simply can't go back.
Andrew Huberman：一旦你想到这种差异，我就无法回头。
Jennifer Groh: Uh-huh.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: It's like a-
安德鲁·休伯曼：这就像-
Jennifer Groh: You like the full, actual speakers, or-
Jennifer Groh：你喜欢完整的、真实的扬声器，或者-
Andrew Huberman: No. Well, now I try to listen to music in the room.
Andrew Huberman：不。好吧，现在我尝试在房间里听音乐。
Jennifer Groh: Or you like it in your head?
Jennifer Groh：或者你心里喜欢它？
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I find that to be a better experience for me.
Andrew Huberman：我发现这对我来说是更好的体验。
Jennifer Groh: Yep.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: But when I hear things with headphones, I now feel like, "Oh, the sound is coming from inside my head," and it's a little weird.
Andrew Huberman：但是当我用耳机听到东西时，我现在感觉，“哦，声音来自我的脑袋”，这有点奇怪。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah, yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的，是的。
Andrew Huberman: I don't like it so much.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我不太喜欢它。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah, right.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的，对。
It is possible to make sound that is coming from headphones sound like it is coming from outside, but to do that, you have to use all three of these sound localization cues.
可以使来自耳机的声音听起来像来自外部，但要做到这一点，您必须使用所有这三个声音定位提示。
Things have to have an appropriate timing difference and an appropriate level difference across the two ears, and to use the frequency filtering properties of the ear.
两只耳朵之间必须有适当的时间差和适当的电平差，并利用耳朵的频率过滤特性。
And since everybody's ears are a little bit different, that last step is really hard.
由于每个人的耳朵都有点不同，所以最后一步真的很难。
Andrew Huberman: But there is 3D sound, right?
Andrew Huberman：但是有 3D 声音，对吧？
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Like, three-dimensional vision is simple for people to think about.
Andrew Huberman：就像，三维视觉对于人们来说很容易思考。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: As long as they're sighted, you understand that you expect things that are closer to you to be larger than if they were far away.
Andrew Huberman：只要你能看到它们，你就会明白，你期望离你较近的东西比离你较远的东西要大。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: We learn this without-
Andrew Huberman：我们无需-
Jennifer Groh: Wow, you've got so many wonderful cues to distance in vision, right?
Jennifer Groh：哇，你有很多关于视觉距离的美妙线索，对吧？
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Yeah, things in the distance are harder to resolve as opposed to things up close, which you can see all the detail.
是的，远处的事情比近距离的事情更难解决，近距离的事情你可以看到所有的细节。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: And there are all these cues, right, that we could talk about.
Andrew Huberman：我们可以讨论所有这些线索。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: But since we're talking about hearing, the sounds that we hear at a given level, we know are coming from objects that are actually close or far away, usually based on what we see.
Andrew Huberman：但是既然我们谈论的是听力，我们在给定级别听到的声音，我们知道来自实际上很近或很远的物体，通常基于我们所看到的。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Right?
安德鲁·休伯曼：对吗？
So what is 3D sound?
那么什么是3D声音呢？
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: How do I know the difference between a sound that's right in front of my face versus far away with my eyes closed?
Andrew Huberman：闭上眼睛时，我如何知道眼前的声音和远处的声音之间的区别？
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: How do I know?
安德鲁·休伯曼：我怎么知道？
Jennifer Groh: This is a computational process in the brain that we don't fully understand, and it's worth thinking about, what are the available pieces of information that you could use?
Jennifer Groh：这是大脑中的一个计算过程，我们还没有完全理解，值得思考的是，你可以使用哪些可用的信息？
Sound is much more bendy than light is.
声音比光更容易弯曲。
Andrew Huberman: Bendy.
安德鲁·休伯曼：本迪。
Jennifer Groh: Bendy, like it bends, right?
Jennifer Groh：Bendy，就像它弯曲一样，对吧？
Andrew Huberman: Goes around things.
Andrew Huberman：绕过事物。
Jennifer Groh: It goes around things, whereas light is just kind of like a straight shot, you know?
Jennifer Groh：它绕着物体移动，而光有点像直射，你知道吗？
You don't have the opportunity to use the same kind of information for sound depth that you do for vision.
您没有机会使用与视觉相同的信息来获取声音深度。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Even though you have two ears, you can't form an image and check to see whether or not the images line up, which is what stereo vision is.
Jennifer Groh：即使你有两只耳朵，你也无法形成图像并检查图像是否对齐，这就是立体视觉。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: You don't have occlusion cues.
Jennifer Groh：你没有遮挡提示。
That is to say, one thing being in front of the other blocks your ability to see the thing that's behind.
也就是说，一件事在另一件事前面会阻碍您看到后面的事情。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: So, the sound can go around objects.
Jennifer Groh：所以，声音可以绕过物体。
So there are a few different cues that we can use.
所以我们可以使用一些不同的线索。
One is simply how loud is the sound?
一是声音有多大？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Things that are farther away are going to sound quieter, but you have to know what the sound volume was out there in the world in order to interpret whether or not that is quiet or loud.
Jennifer Groh：距离越远的事物听起来就越安静，但你必须知道世界上的音量是多少，才能判断是安静还是响亮。
Andrew Huberman: Let's use thunder as an example, because thunder sounding very loud predicts lightning that might hit you.
安德鲁·休伯曼：让我们以雷声为例，因为雷声听起来很大，预示着闪电可能会击中你。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: Thunder that sounds way off in the distance, if you have an understanding of thunder and lightning, predicts a lower probability of you getting hit by lightning.
安德鲁·休伯曼：如果你对雷声和闪电有所了解，那么在远处听起来很遥远的雷声，预示着你被闪电击中的可能性较低。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: I had this experience recently.
Andrew Huberman：我最近有过这样的经历。
I got caught in a sudden thunder-lightning storm in Austin, Texas, and it was coming down in sheets, and then the thunder gets louder and louder, and you're like, "Wow!" And then the lightning gets brighter and brighter, and you think, "I could get electrocuted." And it seems like a low-probability event.
我在得克萨斯州奥斯汀遭遇了一场突如其来的雷电风暴，雷雨成片地落下，然后雷声越来越大，你会说，“哇！”然后闪电变得越来越亮，你会想，“我可能会触电。”而且这似乎是一个低概率事件。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Depending on where you grew up, you might have learned as a child some basics of how to tell when it's a good idea to get to shelter.
根据您长大的地方，您可能在小时候就已经学会了一些基本知识，如何判断何时该去避难所。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: So, for example, I was taught growing up you count one-one-thousand, two-one-thousand, whatever.
Jennifer Groh：举个例子，我从小就被教导要数一一千，二一千，等等。
As long as you can count to five seconds, you're probably okay.
只要你能数到五秒，就可能没问题。
But once you're getting to that level, you should maybe go inside.
但一旦你达到了那个水平，你也许应该进去。
Andrew Huberman: There, take that one in, folks, from somebody who grew up with them.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：好了，伙计们，从和他们一起长大的人那里接受这一点。
You see the flash of lightning-
你看到闪电——
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: One-one-thousand, two-one-thousand, three-one-thousand, four-one-thousand, five-one-thousand.
Jennifer Groh：一千，二千，三千，四千，五千。
And if it takes longer than that before you hear the thunder, you're okay.
如果您需要更长的时间才能听到雷声，那就没关系。
But at that point, I would go inside.
但那时我会进去。
Andrew Huberman: You may have saved some lives.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你可能拯救了一些生命。
Yeah.
是的。
Growing up in California, we didn't learn anything about it.
我们在加利福尼亚长大，对此一无所知。
Jennifer Groh: You didn't get that, and people who grew up in cities wouldn't have gotten this.
Jennifer Groh：你不明白这一点，在城市长大的人也不会明白这一点。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: I think in cities, it's actually very hard to see the connection between the lightning and the thunder.
Jennifer Groh：我认为在城市中，实际上很难看出闪电和雷声之间的联系。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: But I grew up in rural Vermont, and it was, like, very obvious.
Jennifer Groh：但我在佛蒙特州乡村长大，这一点非常明显。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: You know?
詹妮弗·格罗：你知道吗？
Andrew Huberman: I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area, and I've been through so many earthquakes, and one of the things that people don't realize if they've never been in a major earthquake is that it's extremely loud.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我在旧金山湾区长大，经历过很多次地震，如果人们从未经历过大地震，他们不会意识到的一件事是地震的声音非常大。
It starts with sound, not shaking.
它从声音开始，而不是震动。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Sure.
詹妮弗·格罗：当然。
Andrew Huberman: So people are always saying, "California earthquakes," and with the '89 quake, the Embarcadero Freeway pancaked, and the Bay Bridge, actually, a segment fell out.
Andrew Huberman：所以人们总是说“加州地震”，89 年的地震使内河码头高速公路变成了薄饼，而海湾大桥实际上也有一部分脱落了。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: People forget this, during the World Series.
安德鲁·休伯曼：在世界职业棒球大赛期间，人们忘记了这一点。
If that happened now, there would be so many casualties, but it was a lot less busy in the Bay Area back then.
如果现在发生的话，伤亡人数会很多，但当时湾区可没那么热闹。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: The first thing that happens in an earthquake is it sounds like a train is about to come through the room.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：地震时发生的第一件事是听起来好像有火车即将穿过房间。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah, sure.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的，当然。
Andrew Huberman: And then the shaking starts shortly thereafter.
Andrew Huberman：不久之后震动就开始了。
Jennifer Groh: Uh-huh.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: But the sound always comes first.
Andrew Huberman：但声音永远是第一位的。
Jennifer Groh: Huh.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I always tell people this when they're afraid of earthquakes.
Andrew Huberman：当人们害怕地震时，我总是告诉他们这一点。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Like, you'll hear it before you'll feel it.
Andrew Huberman：就像，在你感觉到它之前你就会听到它。
Jennifer Groh: Before you feel it, yeah.
Jennifer Groh：在你感觉到之前，是的。
Andrew Huberman: So if it sounds like a train is going to come through the room, you're probably about to have an earthquake.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，如果听起来像是火车要穿过房间，那么你可能即将发生地震。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Jennifer Groh: I think elephants use sound to communicate over long distances.
Jennifer Groh：我认为大象使用声音进行长距离交流。
Andrew Huberman: That's cool.
安德鲁·休伯曼：那很酷。
They stomp?
他们跺脚？
Jennifer Groh: Yeah, I think so, or they can hear things, and I think they have sensors in their feet that can pick up these vibrations that we might call sound.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的，我想是的，或者他们可以听到东西，我认为他们脚上有传感器，可以拾取这些我们可以称之为声音的振动。
Andrew Huberman: Oh, that's cool.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哦，那很酷。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: That's like that scene in "Stand By Me" where they're crossing the train tracks on a bridge.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这就像《伴我同行》中的场景，他们在桥上穿过铁轨。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And all the kids are just kind of moving along, and then Gordie, who's arguably one of the smarter in the bunch.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：所有的孩子都在进步，然后是戈迪，他可以说是这群孩子中最聪明的一个。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: He's reaching down and holding the tracks, and he feels the tracks shakes before he-
安德鲁·休伯曼：他伸手握住铁轨，他感觉到铁轨在摇晃——
Jennifer Groh: He's feeling the...
詹妮弗·格罗：他感觉……
Jennifer Groh: He feels it.
詹妮弗·格罗：他感觉到了。
Andrew Huberman: ...
安德鲁·休伯曼：...
hears the horn, and then, of course, the smoke rounds the corner, the train rounds the corner.
听到喇叭声，然后，当然，烟雾绕过拐角，火车拐过拐角。
Jennifer Groh: Hears it.
詹妮弗·格罗：听到了。
Yep.
是的。
Jennifer Groh: Yep.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Interesting.
詹妮弗·格罗：有趣。
Interesting.
有趣的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Jennifer Groh: And with the elephants, I'm not sure.
Jennifer Groh：对于大象，我不确定。
I think maybe it's not sensors in the feet, but bone conduction from the feet to the ear.
我想也许不是脚上的传感器，而是从脚到耳朵的骨传导。
Andrew Huberman: Hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Jennifer Groh: And that's where it's being picked up.
Jennifer Groh：这就是它被采用的地方。
So, okay, your question was, if I can go back to your question, it was about distance, and how do we know how far away a sound is coming from?
那么，好吧，你的问题是，如果我可以回到你的问题，那就是关于距离，我们如何知道声音来自多远？
Andrew Huberman: Interesting.
安德鲁·休伯曼：有趣。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: So, the loudness cue requires you to know something about how loud the original stimulus at the source is.
Jennifer Groh：因此，响度提示要求您了解源处的原始刺激有多大。
Andrew Huberman: Hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Jennifer Groh: And so, thunder's a wonderful example of this because we do have quite a bit of experience with thunder, so we can kind of use how loud it is as a good cue, and it also works great because we're talking about really long distances, right?
詹妮弗·格罗：所以，雷声就是一个很好的例子，因为我们确实有相当多的雷声经验，所以我们可以用它的响度作为一个很好的提示，而且它也很有效，因为我们谈论的是非常长的距离，对吧？
There's another pretty cool cue that you and I are probably using right now, and that is that the sound in this room is bouncing off of all the different surfaces.
你和我现在可能正在使用另一个非常酷的提示，那就是这个房间里的声音从所有不同的表面反弹。
Jennifer Groh: So, the shortest path copy of the sound is coming straight from your mouth to my ears.
Jennifer Groh：所以，声音的最短路径副本是直接从你的嘴传到我的耳朵。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: But in addition, there's a copy that's bouncing off of the table that's between us.
Jennifer Groh：但除此之外，我们之间的桌子上还跳出了一份副本。
That has a longer path length, so it'll be slightly delayed.
它的路径长度较长，因此会稍微延迟。
There'll be another copy that's hitting the ceiling and coming down to my ears.
将会有另一份副本冲击到天花板并落入我的耳中。
Andrew Huberman: Oh, this is weird.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哦，这很奇怪。
Jennifer Groh: And that is going to have an even longer delay.
Jennifer Groh：这将会有更长的延迟。
I'm completely unaware of this, but my brain is probably using the slight differences and the kind of pattern of slight differences to figure out that you're about seven feet away from me.
我完全没有意识到这一点，但我的大脑可能正在利用这些细微的差异和细微差异的模式来计算出你离我大约七英尺远。
Jennifer Groh: If we were closer to each other, the difference between that straight path copy and the copy bouncing off of the table would be greater than it is right now.
Jennifer Groh：如果我们彼此距离更近，直线路径副本和从桌子上弹起的副本之间的差异会比现在更大。
Because at this angle, with this geometry, there's really not that much difference, so the bounced off copy and the straight path copy are pretty similar.
因为在这个角度，在这个几何形状下，实际上没有太大的区别，所以反弹的副本和直线路径的副本非常相似。
Andrew Huberman: Hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I never thought about this.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我从来没有想过这个。
Jennifer Groh: It's incredible, right?
Jennifer Groh：这太不可思议了，对吧？
Andrew Huberman: This is a way that vision is so different.
Andrew Huberman：这就是愿景如此不同的方式。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I came up through vision science, mostly.
Andrew Huberman：我主要是通过视觉科学成长起来的。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah, so did I.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的，我也是。
Andrew Huberman: And right, I mean, there are certain wavelengths of light that can pass through our body, like long-wavelength light.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，我的意思是，某些波长的光可以穿过我们的身体，比如长波长光。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: That's relatively new findings.
Andrew Huberman：这是相对较新的发现。
I think it's really interesting, and it's very healthy for us, it turns out, mitochondrial health, et cetera.
我认为这真的很有趣，而且事实证明，它对我们非常健康，线粒体健康等等。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: But, in general, we're not used to thinking about light and wavelengths of light going through things, unless they're translucent or transparent, like a window.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但是，一般来说，我们不习惯考虑穿过物体的光和光的波长，除非它们是半透明或透明的，比如窗户。
Sound is constantly bouncing off everything.
声音不断地从一切物体上反射出来。
Jennifer Groh: We're in a hall of mirrors for sound all the time.
Jennifer Groh：我们一直在一个充满声音的镜子大厅里。
Andrew Huberman: But you experience me, and I experience you during this conversation as one coherent sound.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：但是在这次谈话中，你体验到了我，我也体验到了你，就像一个连贯的声音。
Even though we are biologically poised to detect half a millisecond differences in the arrival time of the two ears, there are much greater differences in the arrival time of my voice bouncing off the table versus the walls versus the ceiling versus the direct path, but you integrate them.
尽管我们在生物学上准备好检测两只耳朵的到达时间有半毫秒的差异，但我的声音从桌子、墙壁、天花板、直接路径反射的到达时间存在更大的差异，但你将它们整合起来。
Jennifer Groh: And I don't hear you as saying the same thing five different times, right?
Jennifer Groh：我没听你说过同一件事五次不同，对吧？
Andrew Huberman: Right.
安德鲁·休伯曼：对。
Jennifer Groh: You know, it's one integrated whole.
Jennifer Groh：你知道，这是一个完整的整体。
Andrew Huberman: And closing one's eyes doesn't change that.
Andrew Huberman：闭上眼睛并不能改变这一点。
If I close my eyes, and you speak, I can register the direct path.
如果我闭上眼睛，你说话，我就能记录直接路径。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: I infer that you're right in front of me.
Andrew Huberman：我推断你就在我面前。
Of course, I know that because my eyes were open a second ago.
我当然知道，因为我的眼睛前一秒才睁开。
But all the versions of your voice arriving, bouncing off the different surfaces, are arriving at my ears, and it's not confusing, and it's not jarring.
但你的声音的所有版本，从不同的表面反射而来，都到达了我的耳朵，这并不令人困惑，也不刺耳。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: Like, if somebody came over and touched my arm, and I felt it on my arm, but also a little bit on the back of my neck, and a little bit on my knee, that would be weird.
安德鲁·休伯曼：就像，如果有人走过来摸我的手臂，我感觉到它在我的手臂上，但也有一点在我的脖子后面，还有一点在我的膝盖上，那会很奇怪。
That would be odd.
那会很奇怪。
You know, and we can get these sensations.
你知道，我们可以获得这些感觉。
There are certain places on the back, for instance, that you can feel a subtle kind of phantom touch in your foot because of the way the neural circuits are organized.
例如，在背部的某些地方，由于神经回路的组织方式，你可以感觉到脚上有一种微妙的幻觉。
And with pain, we talk about this as referenced pain.
对于疼痛，我们将其称为参考疼痛。
Andrew Huberman: You know, for internal organs, there are branches of the nerves such that...
安德鲁·休伯曼：你知道，对于内脏器官来说，有神经分支，这样......
And this shows up in Eastern medicine, but also Western medicine, like someone with liver pain will register that in their shoulder, you know?
这不仅出现在东方医学中，也出现在西医中，就像患有肝痛的人会在他们的肩膀上注意到这一点，你知道吗？
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And we think, "Oh, this is crazy."
Andrew Huberman：我们想，“哦，这太疯狂了。”
Andrew Huberman: No, it's not crazy.
安德鲁·休伯曼：不，这并不疯狂。
There's actually branches that support that referenced pain.
实际上有一些分支支持所提到的疼痛。
But we don't do this with hearing.
但我们不是通过听觉来做到这一点的。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: We shut it all down, and we just draw a conclusion.
Andrew Huberman：我们将其全部关闭，然后得出结论。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: Wild.
安德鲁·休伯曼：狂野。
Jennifer Groh: It's wild, isn't it?
Jennifer Groh：这很疯狂，不是吗？
Andrew Huberman: It's totally wild.
Andrew Huberman：这太疯狂了。
Are you about to tell me that our voices are also causing vibrations in the objects around us, and that we just can't detect them?
你是要告诉我，我们的声音也会引起我们周围物体的振动，而我们只是无法察觉到它们吗？
Why are we not like the elephants?
为什么我们不像大象？
How come we-
怎么我们——
Jennifer Groh: Maybe we are like the elephants.
Jennifer Groh：也许我们就像大象一样。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Andrew Huberman: Is it the case that low-frequency sounds can travel further with respect to our ability to detect them?
Andrew Huberman：就我们检测低频声音的能力而言，低频声音是否可以传播得更远？
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: So, I don't want to get into a conversation about frequency of sound and intensity, and high versus low frequency, because that's really about the physics of sound.
Andrew Huberman：所以，我不想讨论声音的频率和强度，以及高频与低频，因为这实际上是关于声音的物理学。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Right, right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对，对。
Andrew Huberman: But ultimately, we filter the physics of sound through our nervous system.
Andrew Huberman：但最终，我们通过神经系统过滤声音的物理特性。
So, if I want to signal to somebody far away, I would probably want a big bass drum or a gong.
所以，如果我想向远处的人发出信号，我可能需要一个大的低音鼓或锣。
I would not try to whistle to them far away.
我不会试图向远处的他们吹口哨。
Or if I could pick a horn that was a deep, like, "awwng" versus, "eeee."
或者如果我可以选择一个深沉的号角，比如“awwng”和“eeee”。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I'd want bass.
Andrew Huberman：我想要贝斯。
Jennifer Groh: So, there are a few things wrapped up here.
Jennifer Groh：所以，这里有一些事情。
One is that the lower frequencies bend more easily, so they can go around these objects better.
一是较低的频率更容易弯曲，因此它们可以更好地绕过这些物体。
So, if you're talking really long distances, you know, the odds that there's something in the path that you want the sound to go around go up.
所以，如果你说话的距离很远，你知道，路径中存在你希望声音绕过的东西的可能性就会增加。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Another thing that's wrapped up here is that we tend to lose high-frequency hearing before we lose low-frequency hearing.
Jennifer Groh：这里涉及的另一件事是，我们往往会在失去低频听力之前先失去高频听力。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: And so, the lower frequencies are audible to more people and are louder to people than the higher frequencies.
Jennifer Groh：因此，较低的频率可以被更多的人听到，并且比较高的频率对人们来说更响亮。
Andrew Huberman: So, you're saying it's because it can bend around objects?
Andrew Huberman：所以，你是说这是因为它可以围绕物体弯曲？
Jennifer Groh: Well, I don't really know what the choices that are being made are by the people whose job it is to figure these kinds of things out.
Jennifer Groh：嗯，我真的不知道那些负责解决这些问题的人会做出什么选择。
But I'm sure that there's some thought being given to the receiver, you know, the people, and what they can perceive.
但我确信，我们会考虑到接收者、人们以及他们的感知。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: So, let's take a couple of other examples of warning systems that humans use.
Jennifer Groh：那么，让我们举几个人类使用的警告系统的其他例子。
The gas in a gas stove doesn't have an intrinsic odor to it.
燃气灶中的燃气本身没有气味。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: There's an odorant that's been added.
Jennifer Groh：添加了一种气味剂。
Andrew Huberman: That rotten egg, sulfur smell.
安德鲁·休伯曼：那种臭鸡蛋的硫磺味。
Jennifer Groh: That rotten egg, yeah, exactly.
Jennifer Groh：是的，就是那个臭鸡蛋。
And so, you know, that was chosen a long time ago to be added, and it turns out to be a good thing because it doesn't really smell like anything else.
所以，你知道，这是很久以前就选择添加的，事实证明这是一件好事，因为它闻起来不像其他东西。
It's not pleasant, but everybody can detect it.
这并不令人愉快，但每个人都能察觉到。
I don't know of any cases of people who can't smell that, unless they have a generalized anosmia, where they can't smell anything.
我不知道有谁闻不到这种气味的人，除非他们患有全身性嗅觉丧失症，他们什么也闻不到。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Traffic lights are maybe a little bit of a less of a win, because you've got red versus green.
Jennifer Groh：交通灯可能有点不太成功，因为有红色和绿色之分。
And 6% of the population is red/green color blind, which operationally means not that you can't see a red stimulus or a green stimulus, but that you can't tell the difference, you know, whether or not something is red or green.
6% 的人是红/绿色盲，这在操作上并不是说你看不到红色刺激物或绿色刺激物，而是你无法区分，你知道，某物是红色还是绿色。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I should just say that most red/green color blind people tend to be males, just because of where the gene mutation is in the genome, and they don't see...
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，我应该说，大多数红/绿色盲人往往是男性，只是因为基因突变位于基因组中，而他们看不到......
Jennifer Groh: Yes.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: People always want to know, like, what does red look like to them?
Andrew Huberman：人们总是想知道，比如，红色对他们来说是什么样子？
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Red and green look kind of more orange-ish, burnt brown, orange color, and dogs see the world that way all the time.
Andrew Huberman：红色和绿色看起来更像橙色、焦棕色、橙色，狗一直都是这样看世界的。
Jennifer Groh: Right, so if you do a color-matching experiment, my understanding is something along the lines of people with red/green color blindness will map both red and green onto yellow.
Jennifer Groh：是的，所以如果你做一个颜色匹配实验，我的理解是，红/绿色盲的人会将红色和绿色映射到黄色。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: And not be able to tell the difference.
Jennifer Groh：并且无法区分。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, that's right.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，没错。
Jennifer Groh: It's not the kind of cartoon view of, like, it looks black and white.
詹妮弗·格罗（Jennifer Groh）：这不是那种卡通观点，比如，它看起来是黑白的。
Andrew Huberman: There are people who are completely monochromatic, but it's very rare.
Andrew Huberman：有些人是完全单色的，但这种情况非常罕见。
Jennifer Groh: Very rare.
詹妮弗·格罗：非常罕见。
Andrew Huberman: Very, very rare.
安德鲁·休伯曼：非常非常罕见。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And there are other forms of color blindness that are more subtle.
安德鲁·休伯曼：还有其他形式的更微妙的色盲。
And we'll put a link to this.
我们将放置一个链接。
Jay and Maureen Neitz, up at the University of Washington, have a terrific...
华盛顿大学的杰伊·内茨 (Jay Neitz) 和莫琳·内茨 (Maureen Neitz) 夫妇有一个很棒的……
They run a color vision lab.
他们经营一个色觉实验室。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: She's a molecular biologist, he's more of a psychophysicist.
安德鲁·休伯曼：她是一位分子生物学家，他更像是一位心理物理学家。
And they have some really great color vision tests there that people can take, and many people find that they have subtle color vision deficits.
他们在那里有一些非常好的色觉测试可供人们进行，许多人发现他们有轻微的色觉缺陷。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的，是的，完全正确。
Andrew Huberman: But they don't consider themselves fully color blind.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但他们并不认为自己是完全色盲。
But every once in a while...
但每隔一段时间...
Monochromats usually know that they're seeing the world in black and white.
单色者通常知道他们看到的世界是黑白的。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah, monochromats...
Jennifer Groh：是的，单色者……
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Jennifer Groh: And a lot of what is under this heading is really more an anomaly than a complete absence of an ability to distinguish red from green.
Jennifer Groh：这个标题下的很多内容实际上更多的是一种异常现象，而不是完全缺乏区分红色和绿色的能力。
But back to our traffic lights.
回到我们的交通灯。
So, you got your red versus green signaling something very different.
所以，红色和绿色发出的信号非常不同。
And most places have those lights oriented vertically, which gives you a second cue to what needs to be conveyed here.
大多数地方的灯光都是垂直的，这给了你第二个提示，让你知道这里需要传达什么信息。
Andrew Huberman: Not the same light switching.
Andrew Huberman：不一样的灯开关。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
It's not the same light switching, and one is on top, and the other's on the bottom.
这不是同一种灯开关，一个在顶部，另一个在底部。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: It's more of a problem when in some intersections, the set of three lights is oriented horizontally.
Jennifer Groh：在某些十字路口，三个灯组水平放置时，问题就更大了。
Andrew Huberman: We've known for a long time that there are things that we can do to improve our sleep, and that includes things that we can take, things like magnesium threonate, theanine, chamomile extract, and glycine, along with lesser-known things like saffron and valerian root.
Andrew Huberman：我们很早就知道我们可以采取一些措施来改善睡眠，其中包括我们可以服用的东西，例如苏糖酸镁、茶氨酸、洋甘菊提取物和甘氨酸，以及一些不太为人所知的东西，例如藏红花和缬草根。
These are all clinically supported ingredients that can help you fall asleep, stay asleep, and wake up feeling more refreshed.
这些都是经过临床支持的成分，可以帮助您入睡、保持睡眠状态，并且醒来时感觉更加神清气爽。
I'm excited to share that our longtime sponsor, AG1, just created a new product called AGZ, a nightly drink designed to help you get better sleep and have you wake up feeling super refreshed.
我很高兴与大家分享，我们的长期赞助商 AG1 刚刚创造了一款名为 AGZ 的新产品，这是一种夜间饮料，旨在帮助您获得更好的睡眠，让您醒来时感觉神清气爽。
Andrew Huberman: Over the past few years, I've worked with the team at AG1 to help create this new AGZ formula.
Andrew Huberman：在过去的几年里，我与 AG1 的团队合作，帮助创建了这个新的 AGZ 公式。
It has the best sleep-supporting compounds in exactly the right ratios in one easy-to-drink mix.
它在一种易于饮用的混合物中以完全正确的比例含有最好的睡眠支持化合物。
AGZ is, to my knowledge, the most comprehensive sleep supplement on the market.
据我所知，AGZ 是市场上最全面的睡眠补充剂。
I take it 30 to 60 minutes before sleep.
我在睡前 30 到 60 分钟服用。
It's delicious, by the way.
顺便说一句，它很好吃。
And it dramatically increases both the quality and the depth of my sleep.
它极大地提高了我的睡眠质量和深度。
I know that both from my subjective experience of my sleep and because I track my sleep.
我知道这一点，既来自我对睡眠的主观体验，也因为我跟踪了我的睡眠。
Andrew Huberman: I'm excited for everyone to try this new AGZ formulation, and to enjoy the benefits of better sleep.
Andrew Huberman：我很高兴每个人都能尝试这种新的 AGZ 配方，并享受更好睡眠的好处。
If you'd like to try AGZ, go to drinkagz.com/huberman to get a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AGZ，请访问 Drinkagz.com/huberman 以获得特别优惠。
Again, that's drinkagz.com/huberman.
再说一遍，这是 Drinkagz.com/huberman。
Andrew Huberman: Today's episode is also brought to us by Our Place.
Andrew Huberman：今天的节目也是由 Our Place 为我们带来的。
Our Place makes my favorite pots, pans, and other cookware.
我们的地方生产我最喜欢的锅、平底锅和其他炊具。
Surprisingly, toxic compounds such as PFAS or forever chemicals, are still found in 80% of non-stick pans, as well as utensils, appliances, and countless other kitchen products.
令人惊讶的是，80% 的不粘锅以及餐具、电器和无数其他厨房产品中仍然含有 PFAS 或永久化学物质等有毒化合物。
As I've discussed before on this podcast, these PFAS or forever chemicals like Teflon, have been linked to major health issues such as hormone disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems.
正如我之前在这个播客中讨论过的那样，这些 PFAS 或永久性化学物质（如特氟隆）与激素紊乱、肠道微生物群破坏、生育问题和许多其他健康问题等重大健康问题有关。
So, it's very important to avoid them.
因此，避免它们非常重要。
This is why I'm a huge fan of Our Place.
这就是为什么我是《我们的地方》的超级粉丝。
Andrew Huberman: Our Place products are made with the highest quality materials and are all PFAS and toxin-free.
Andrew Huberman：我们的产品采用最优质的材料制成，并且全部不含 PFAS 和毒素。
I particularly love their Titanium Always Pan Pro.
我特别喜欢他们的 Titanium Always Pan Pro。
It's the first non-stick pan made with zero chemicals and zero coating.
这是第一个采用零化学品和零涂层制成的不粘锅。
Instead, it uses pure titanium.
相反，它使用纯钛。
This means it has no harmful forever chemicals and does not degrade or lose its non-stick effect over time.
这意味着它不含永久有害的化学物质，并且不会随着时间的推移而降解或失去其不粘效果。
It's also beautiful to look at.
看起来也很漂亮。
I cook eggs in my Titanium Always Pan Pro almost every morning.
我几乎每天早上都会用 Titanium Always Pan Pro 煮鸡蛋。
The design allows for the eggs to cook perfectly without sticking to the pan.
该设计使鸡蛋能够完美烹饪而不会粘在锅上。
Andrew Huberman: I also cook burgers and steaks in it, and it always puts a really nice sear on the meat.
Andrew Huberman：我还用它来做汉堡和牛排，它总是能让肉有很好的烤焦效果。
But again, nothing sticks to it, so it's really easy to clean, and it's even dishwasher safe.
但同样，没有任何东西粘在上面，所以它非常容易清洁，甚至可以用洗碗机清洗。
I love it, and I use it constantly.
我喜欢它，并且经常使用它。
Our Place now has a full line of "Titanium Pro" cookware that uses the first-of-its-kind titanium non-stick technology.
我们的地方现在拥有全系列的“Titanium Pro”炊具，采用首创的钛不粘技术。
So, if you're looking for non-toxic, long-lasting pots and pans, go to fromourplace.com/huberman and use the code "Huberman."
因此，如果您正在寻找无毒、耐用的锅碗瓢盆，请访问 fromourplace.com/huberman 并使用代码“Huberman”。
Andrew Huberman: Right now, Our Place is having their biggest sale of the year.
Andrew Huberman：现在，Our Place 正在进行今年最大的促销活动。
You can get up to 35% off all products now through January 12th, 2026.
即日起至 2026 年 1 月 12 日，所有产品均可享受高达 35% 的折扣。
With a one hundred-day risk-free trial, free shipping, and free returns, you can try Our Place with zero risk, and you can see why more than one million people have made the switch to Our Place kitchenware.
通过一百天无风险试用、免费送货和免费退货，您可以零风险试用 Our Place，您就会明白为什么超过一百万人已改用 Our Place 厨具。
Again, that's fromourplace.com/huberman to get up to 35% off.
同样，来自ourplace.com/huberman 的折扣高达 35%。
Andrew Huberman: So, really what we're talking about, that I'd like to drill into even deeper, cross-senses, but primarily with sound, is, you know, how space, how the physical environment shapes our perception of things.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，我们真正谈论的是，我想深入探讨更深入的跨感官，但主要是声音，你知道，空间、物理环境如何塑造我们对事物的感知。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: And I'm also very interested in the relationship between vibration and sound, given that our ears contain the apparatus to detect sound frequency, but also, have to do with balance and vibration.
Andrew Huberman：我对振动和声音之间的关系也很感兴趣，因为我们的耳朵包含检测声音频率的装置，而且还与平衡和振动有关。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Most of us have had the experience of someone pulling up next to us in a car, blasting bass really loud, and our windows start shaking, and their windows start shaking.
Andrew Huberman：我们大多数人都有过这样的经历：有人把车停在我们旁边，大声地吹出低音，我们的窗户开始摇晃，他们的窗户也开始摇晃。
Jennifer Groh: Oh, yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：哦，是的。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: Could we talk just about how objects have a resonant frequency?
Andrew Huberman：我们能谈谈物体如何具有共振频率吗？
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: I think this is pretty interesting, and then people will inevitably want to know about how humans have a resonant frequency, and we do.
Andrew Huberman：我认为这非常有趣，然后人们不可避免地想知道人类如何具有共振频率，而我们确实这样做了。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: I believe that certain frequencies of sound can shape our emotional state.
Andrew Huberman：我相信某些频率的声音可以塑造我们的情绪状态。
Jennifer Groh: Oh, sure.
詹妮弗·格罗：哦，当然。
I mean, that's music, right?
我的意思是，这就是音乐，对吗？
Andrew Huberman: For example, right.
安德鲁·休伯曼：例如，对。
Jennifer Groh: For example.
詹妮弗·格罗：例如。
Andrew Huberman: It just, for some reason, when we break it down to one frequency, and it's not packaged in music, people somehow think it's, like, "woo" or mysticism, and it's not.
安德鲁·休伯曼：出于某种原因，当我们将其分解为一种频率，并且它没有包装在音乐中时，人们会以某种方式认为它是“求爱”或神秘主义，但事实并非如此。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I mean, I'm fascinated by this, like, the "gongs" as an ancient tool for trying to orient people's emotional state or signal.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我的意思是，我对此很着迷，就像“锣”一样，它是一种试图引导人们情绪状态或信号的古老工具。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Like, if we hear "dong, dong, dong," it sounds ominous, right?
Andrew Huberman：就像，如果我们听到“咚、咚、咚”，听起来很不祥，对吧？
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: If we hear chirping of birds, we know they're birds, but if we hear light, you know, in the Disney movies...
安德鲁·休伯曼：如果我们听到鸟儿的鸣叫，我们就知道它们是鸟，但如果我们听到光，你知道，在迪士尼电影中......
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: It's been a long time since I've seen a Disney movie, but the kind of the stuff of fluttering is high frequency.
Andrew Huberman：我已经很久没有看过迪士尼电影了，但是那种飘动的东西出现的频率很高。
High-frequency movement tends to be high-frequency sound.
高频运动往往是高频声音。
So, how do you think about the relationship between frequency and emotion and resonant frequency?
那么，您如何看待频率与情绪、共振频率之间的关系呢？
I mean, it's a vast landscape, but I'd love your thoughts on this.
我的意思是，这是一片广阔的风景，但我很想听听你对此的想法。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: So, can we go into the music realm to talk about this?
Jennifer Groh：那么，我们可以进入音乐领域来谈谈这个吗？
Andrew Huberman: Please, I think that's intuitive for many people.
Andrew Huberman：拜托，我认为这对很多人来说都是直观的。
Yeah.
是的。
Jennifer Groh: Okay.
詹妮弗·格罗：好的。
Jennifer Groh: Okay, good.
詹妮弗·格罗：好的，很好。
So, one of the things that I think is fascinating about music is that it's universal, and nobody really knows what it's for.
所以，我认为音乐的迷人之处之一是它是普遍的，而且没有人真正知道它的用途。
Like, it's pretty clear that language is useful to us.
就像，很明显语言对我们很有用。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Right?
詹妮弗·格罗：对吗？
It helps us exchange information.
它帮助我们交换信息。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: So, pretty obvious that language is a benefit, a survival benefit for individuals and for the species as a whole.
詹妮弗·格罗：很明显，语言是一种好处，对个人和整个物种来说都是一种生存好处。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: We don't really have as clear a view of why music...
詹妮弗·格罗（Jennifer Groh）：我们对于音乐为何......
You know, what role did music play in our success in evolution, natural selection?
你知道，音乐在我们进化、自然选择的成功中扮演了什么角色？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: You know, music really is universal.
Jennifer Groh：你知道，音乐确实是普遍的。
Every human culture has it.
每个人类文化都有它。
There is some variation as to whether or not a culture embraces melody, embraces harmony, but every culture has rhythm.
一种文化是否拥抱旋律、拥抱和声存在一些差异，但每种文化都有节奏。
You can't have melody or harmony without rhythm.
没有节奏就不可能有旋律或和声。
It doesn't make any sense, right?
这没有任何意义，对吧？
Like, imagine a familiar tune like "Happy Birthday," but the duration of the notes was completely arbitrary, you know?
就像，想象一下像“生日快乐”这样熟悉的曲调，但音符的持续时间完全是任意的，你知道吗？
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, it would sound crazy.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，这听起来很疯狂。
Jennifer Groh: It would sound crazy.
詹妮弗·格罗：这听起来很疯狂。
It would not be recognizable to us as "Happy Birthday," but you can play it fast, you can play it slow, you can pitch shifted up or pitch shifted down, musical terms, in a different key, and we would recognize that as a particular song.
我们不会将其识别为“生日快乐”，但您可以快速播放它，您可以缓慢播放它，您可以调高或调低音调，音乐术语，用不同的调，我们会识别出这是一首特定的歌曲。
So, that's what I mean about rhythm being really critical.
所以，这就是我所说的节奏非常重要的意思。
Jennifer Groh: And the criticality of rhythm offers up the following, kind of, wild theory.
Jennifer Groh：节奏的重要性提出了以下一种疯狂的理论。
This is not my theory.
这不是我的理论。
I wish I could quote who's ever theory it is.
我希望我能引用谁的理论。
But it is that perhaps what music and rhythm is for, is to help us act in concert with one another, and be louder than any of us could be by ourselves, and to scare off predators and competitors.
但也许音乐和节奏的目的是帮助我们彼此协调行动，比我们任何人单独发出的声音更大，并吓跑掠食者和竞争对手。
Andrew Huberman: Hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Jennifer Groh: So, for example, imagine a pack of hyenas are surrounding a kill from a lion.
詹妮弗·格罗：举个例子，想象一下一群鬣狗围着狮子猎杀的猎物。
The lion has long since sated and has gone away, but now a bunch of scrawny humans want to scare off the hyenas.
狮子早已吃饱并离开了，但现在一群骨瘦如柴的人类想要吓跑鬣狗。
Jennifer Groh: If they go after the hyenas, all stomping their feet together and shouting together, it's going to be a lot louder than any one person could do by themselves.
詹妮弗·格罗：如果他们去追鬣狗，所有人一起跺脚，一起喊叫，声音会比任何一个人单独发出的声音大得多。
Andrew Huberman: Oh, I like this theory.
Andrew Huberman：哦，我喜欢这个理论。
Jennifer Groh: It's kind of nice, right?
Jennifer Groh：这很好，对吧？
Andrew Huberman: I'll tell you why in a moment, but please continue.
Andrew Huberman：我稍后会告诉你原因，但请继续。
Jennifer Groh: And then, that kind of concerted working together as a group, and you could sort of see that once you have the basics of...
詹妮弗·格罗：然后，作为一个团队协同工作，一旦你掌握了……的基础知识，你就可以看到......
And here I'm talking, when I say once you have...
我在这里说的是，当我说一旦你...
I'm really imagining on an evolutionary scale that for anything to come about and endure, requires that it increase our fitness at every stage of the way.
我确实在进化的层面上想象，任何事物的发生和持久，都需要它在每个阶段提高我们的适应性。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: So initially, you might get that rhythm thing going on, but then, that would be satisfying to people.
詹妮弗·格罗：所以一开始，你可能会得到节奏的东西，但随后，这会让人们感到满意。
Like, if you had a mutation that made acting together feel good for some reason, and then it would come along with this benefit of competing with the hyenas for the lion kill.
就像，如果你有一种突变，出于某种原因让一起行动感觉良好，那么它就会带来与鬣狗竞争猎杀狮子的好处。
And then it would kind of potentially feed on itself of like, well, even more cooperative action, feeling good together, allows us to then do other things together that we can't do individually.
然后它可能会自我滋养，比如，甚至更多的合作行动，在一起感觉良好，让我们能够一起做其他我们无法单独做的事情。
Andrew Huberman: Have you ever seen the...
安德鲁·休伯曼：你见过……
It's a song, and I don't exactly know what to call it.
这是一首歌，我不知道该怎么称呼它。
The chanting and the song of Maori in New Zealand?
新西兰毛利人的口号和歌曲？
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: They'll do this before rugby games.
Andrew Huberman：他们会在橄榄球比赛之前这样做。
Jennifer Groh: Oh, right, the-
Jennifer Groh：哦，对了，那个-
Andrew Huberman: Because the All Blacks are one of the best rugby teams in the world.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：因为全黑队是世界上最好的橄榄球队之一。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: There's an incredible video that a friend of mine, she always sends this to me when I'll say something like, "Oh, you know, what do you think of something that was on the news or something?"
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我的一个朋友有一个令人难以置信的视频，当我说“哦，你知道，你对新闻或其他事情有什么看法？”时，她总是把这个视频发送给我。
Jennifer Groh: Uh-huh.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And she'll send...
安德鲁·休伯曼：她会发送...
There's an incredible case in the government in New Zealand.
新西兰政府有一个令人难以置信的案例。
I don't know whether they use parliament or what.
我不知道他们是利用议会还是什么。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: There's an example of...
安德鲁·休伯曼：有一个例子......
So okay, I'll just say it how it is.
好吧，我就说一下它是怎么回事。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Some white politician reads out some proclamation, maybe that's up for a vote, and then all of a sudden, it will start in one corner of this very majestic, government building.
安德鲁·休伯曼：一些白人政治家宣读了一些公告，也许需要投票，然后突然间，它将在这座非常雄伟的政府大楼的一个角落开始。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Yes.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Looks sort of like our Congress, but it's different.
Andrew Huberman：看起来有点像我们的国会，但又有所不同。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: And she'll start chanting, and then it's, like, wide eyes.
安德鲁·休伯曼：她会开始吟诵，然后就睁大眼睛。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: There's no blinking.
安德鲁·休伯曼：没有眨眼。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: It's very interesting, and there's stomping, and there's clapping, and then all of a sudden, other people start joining in with her.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：这非常有趣，有人跺脚，有人鼓掌，然后突然间，其他人开始加入她的行列。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: And you're like-
安德鲁·休伯曼：你就像-
Jennifer Groh: And it gets really loud when they're together.
Jennifer Groh：当他们在一起时，声音会变得非常响亮。
Andrew Huberman: You know a number of things immediately.
Andrew Huberman：你立刻就知道了很多事情。
A, they're pissed.
答：他们很生气。
Two, they're not going to stand for this.
第二，他们不会容忍这一点。
Three, there are a lot of them.
三、数量很多。
And four, like, they're not to be messed with.
还有四个，就像，他们不能被搞乱。
Jennifer Groh: They're united.
詹妮弗·格罗：他们团结一致。
Andrew Huberman: They're united.
安德鲁·休伯曼：他们团结一致。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Admittedly, I had to have someone look this up.
Andrew Huberman：不可否认，我必须让人查一下这个。
It's called "Haka." And it's incredible because you immediately understand how these people feel.
它被称为“哈卡”。这是令人难以置信的，因为你立刻就能理解这些人的感受。
And it's a, "No, we're not going take that," kind of stance, at least in the context of this government example.
这是一种“不，我们不会采取这种立场”的立场，至少在这个政府例子的背景下是这样。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: In terms of pre-rugby match, it's really a display of vigor, and we are primates, after all.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：就橄榄球前的比赛而言，这确实是一种活力的展示，毕竟我们是灵长类动物。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Right.
正确的。
Andrew Huberman: We are Old World primates.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我们是旧大陆灵长类动物。
Jennifer Groh: Yep.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And vigor displays, run through all the Old World primate species, including us.
安德鲁·休伯曼：活力的表现贯穿于所有旧大陆灵长类物种，包括我们。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: I think it's definitely a vigor display.
Jennifer Groh：我认为这绝对是一种活力的展示。
Andrew Huberman: Like stomping, making one's body big.
Andrew Huberman：就像跺脚一样，使人的身体变大。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: And the lack of blinking is something that, as a vision scientist, I caught onto early.
Andrew Huberman：作为一名视觉科学家，我很早就意识到了不眨眼的问题。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Like, no one's doing this and blinking a lot.
Andrew Huberman：就像，没有人这样做并且经常眨眼。
They're showing that they will not break their attention, until this is complete.
他们表明，在这一切完成之前，他们不会分散他们的注意力。
And somebody not blinking while staring directly at you, is a command for your attention as well.
有人直视你时不眨眼，也是一种引起你注意的命令。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: And it's even in our language, isn't it?
Jennifer Groh：甚至是用我们的语言，不是吗？
So-and-so didn't blink.
某某没有眨眼。
Andrew Huberman: That's right.
安德鲁·休伯曼：没错。
They don't blink.
他们不眨眼。
They're not afraid.
他们不害怕。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: You know, these days, because of the craziness of the political socio-landscape with assassinations and very strong personalities in government and online, and because, in media now, to at least some extent, different form of media, not politics.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你知道，现在，因为政治社会景观的疯狂、暗杀以及政府和网络上非常强烈的个性，而且因为现在的媒体，至少在某种程度上，是不同形式的媒体，而不是政治。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: But, you know, I'm so intrigued by the idea that some people are capturing people's attention and loyalty, not just by virtue of what they say, but the certainty with which they say it.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但是，你知道，我对这样一个想法很感兴趣：有些人吸引人们的注意力和忠诚度，不仅仅是因为他们所说的话，而是因为他们说话时的确定性。
Now, that's not a new theme, but also, the timbre of their voice, the refusal to entertain dissenting voices.
现在，这不是一个新主题，而且，他们声音的音色，拒绝接受不同的声音。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: But also, how a lot of voices are just not the right timbre and frequency, and delivered in the way that these people have obviously mastered their ability to command other people's attention.
安德鲁·休伯曼：而且，很多声音的音色和频率都不合适，而且这些人显然已经掌握了吸引他人注意力的能力。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Because this stuff hits at a primitive level, right?
Andrew Huberman：因为这些东西处于原始水平，对吧？
People aren't necessarily just voting on issues.
人们不一定只是对问题进行投票。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah, yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的，是的。
Andrew Huberman: They're voting on feeling.
Andrew Huberman：他们根据感觉投票。
We've known this.
我们已经知道这一点。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: So in any case, the "Haka" is a beautiful example of what you're describing.
Andrew Huberman：所以无论如何，“哈卡舞”是您所描述的一个很好的例子。
Jennifer Groh: Well, and the other thing is that music plays a role in say, the military and in war.
Jennifer Groh：嗯，另一件事是音乐在军事和战争中发挥着作用。
I read somewhere that the military is the largest employer of musicians in this country.
我在某处读到，军队是这个国家最大的音乐家雇主。
Andrew Huberman: Interesting.
安德鲁·休伯曼：有趣。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Makes sense.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：有道理。
Jennifer Groh: Well, you know, it was a surprise to me when I first heard it.
Jennifer Groh：嗯，你知道，当我第一次听到它时，我感到很惊讶。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, surprising to me, but, I mean, somebody's got to play Taps.
Andrew Huberman：是的，这让我感到惊讶，但是，我的意思是，总得有人玩 Taps。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Usually, that's one one horn, though.
Andrew Huberman：不过，通常情况下，那是一只一只的号角。
Jennifer Groh: Right, you get one-
詹妮弗·格罗：对，你得到一个——
Andrew Huberman: Right.
安德鲁·休伯曼：对。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
So, I think the other possible angle for all of this is there are things in many species that are not obviously beneficial.
所以，我认为所有这一切的另一个可能的角度是，许多物种中存在一些并不明显有益的东西。
Take the peacock, for example, that enormous investment in plumage, in very colorful tail feathers, is not something that is directly adding to the survival skills of the male peacock.
以孔雀为例，对羽毛、色彩鲜艳的尾羽的巨大投资并不能直接提高雄孔雀的生存技能。
But rather, it's something the female peacocks like.
相反，这是雌孔雀喜欢的东西。
And so, that tends to feed on itself, too.
因此，这也往往会自食其力。
Jennifer Groh: So, that's another way that music could get into our panoply of human characteristics, without necessarily directly leading to something like being able to get more food.
詹妮弗·格罗：所以，这是音乐进入我们人类全部特征的另一种方式，而不一定直接导致诸如能够获得更多食物之类的事情。
Like, the rhythm thing gives us more food.
就像，节奏能给我们更多的食物。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: People who are good at music might end up with more offspring than people who weren't good at music.
Jennifer Groh：擅长音乐的人最终可能比不擅长音乐的人拥有更多的后代。
That would be the sort of general idea behind that part of the theory.
这将是该部分理论背后的一般思想。
Andrew Huberman: In many, now, older movies, typically, it was a man singing to a woman, or in the movie "Say Anything," John Cusack simply used a boom box, right?
安德鲁·休伯曼：在许多现在的老电影中，通常是一个男人给女人唱歌，或者在电影《说吧》中，约翰·库萨克只是使用了音箱，对吧？
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah, with his big-
Jennifer Groh：是的，他的大-
Jennifer Groh: Yeah, right.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的，对。
Andrew Huberman: Or poetry, creative works, but expressed out loud, were the way that courtship took place.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：或者诗歌，创造性的作品，但大声表达出来，是求爱发生的方式。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Erich Jarvis was on this podcast.
安德鲁·休伯曼：埃里希·贾维斯参加了这个播客。
Jennifer Groh: Okay.
詹妮弗·格罗：好的。
Andrew Huberman: I don't know if you know Erich.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我不知道你是否认识埃里希。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: The Rockefeller.
安德鲁·休伯曼：洛克菲勒。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: He's a very accomplished dancer.
安德鲁·休伯曼：他是一位非常有成就的舞者。
I don't know if you know this, but he was supposed to be in the Alvin Ailey Dance Company.
我不知道你是否知道这一点，但他应该是阿尔文·艾利舞蹈团的成员。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: He decided to become a neuroscientist instead.
安德鲁·休伯曼：他决定成为一名神经科学家。
But as I understand, he's still a good dancer.
但据我了解，他仍然是一位优秀的舞者。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And he was saying that he thought that perhaps primitive vocalizations evolved first.
安德鲁·休伯曼：他说他认为也许原始发声首先进化出来。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: So, vocalizations of disgust, or pleasure, or fear, or excitement.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，厌恶、快乐、恐惧或兴奋的声音。
Then he thought perhaps, came song and dance.
然后他想，也许，歌舞来了。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: So, song and body movement, to signal what one was feeling or what their intention was.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，歌曲和身体动作可以表达一个人的感受或他们的意图。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And then, perhaps, spoken language came after that.
安德鲁·休伯曼：也许，口语是在那之后出现的。
It makes sense.
这是有道理的。
I just think we don't know.
我只是认为我们不知道。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah, we don't know, and I think it's kind of interesting.
Jennifer Groh：是的，我们不知道，但我认为这很有趣。
There are maybe sort of two-- Like, I think with the songbird, they are signaling things like vigor, and fitness, and territoriality, and things like that.
可能有两种——就像，我认为鸣禽，它们发出诸如活力、健康、领地性之类的信号。
They're not conveying something symbolic, whereas the vocalizations in the primate tend to mean something specific.
它们并不传达某种象征性的东西，而灵长类动物的发声往往意味着某种特定的东西。
Andrew Huberman: Hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Jennifer Groh: You know, sometimes I wish I could have a time machine, and I could go back and look at what happened in earlier stages of evolution, and just kind of see, "Well, what is the lineage?"
詹妮弗·格罗：你知道，有时我希望我能有一台时间机器，我可以回去看看进化的早期阶段发生了什么，然后就看到，“嗯，谱系是什么？”
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: What is the sequence of events that led us to have language, that led us to have music?
Jennifer Groh：导致我们拥有语言、导致我们拥有音乐的事件顺序是什么？
Did it come from the same process as songbirds, or did it come from a completely parallel process?
它与鸣禽来自同一过程，还是来自完全并行的过程？
Jennifer Groh: I mean, I think we do see that evolution can arrive at similar characteristics through different means, in different places, and at different times.
Jennifer Groh：我的意思是，我认为我们确实看到进化可以通过不同的方式、在不同的地点和不同的时间达到相似的特征。
So, it could be a kind of convergent, parallel process, or it could be something different.
因此，它可能是一种收敛、并行的过程，也可能是不同的过程。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I feel like music conveys intention.
Andrew Huberman：我觉得音乐传达意图。
Music can tell a story.
音乐可以讲故事。
And music, because of the way that it organizes language, provided there's lyrics into, like, riffs, and motifs, and melodies, and choruses, that it makes it very easy to remember things.
而音乐，由于它组织语言的方式，只要有歌词、即兴重复、主题、旋律和合唱，它就很容易记住事情。
I'd like to talk a little bit about the possible neural underpinnings of this.
我想谈谈这可能的神经基础。
Two things come to mind.
我想到两件事。
First of all, you mentioned the ABCs.
首先，您提到了 ABC。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: You know, "A, B, C, D, E, F, G." Almost everybody knows that melody.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你知道，“A、B、C、D、E、F、G。”几乎每个人都熟悉这个旋律。
And it's probably easier to remember all those letters in that form as opposed to A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I.
与 A、B、C、D、E、F、G、H、I 相比，这种形式的所有字母可能更容易记住。
Jennifer Groh: Oh, sure.
詹妮弗·格罗：哦，当然。
Andrew Huberman: Because you break it up.
安德鲁·休伯曼：因为你把它打破了。
And I'm almost certain this is true, because I have a good friend, and he's a very accomplished musician, and he's an incredible songwriter and lyricist.
我几乎可以肯定这是真的，因为我有一个好朋友，他是一位非常有成就的音乐家，也是一位令人难以置信的歌曲作者和作词家。
He's written lyrics for a number of other artists, not just himself.
他为许多其他艺术家写过歌词，而不仅仅是他自己。
And he has several bands.
他有几个乐队。
He writes a song a day.
他每天写一首歌。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Jennifer Groh: Uh-huh.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: It's crazy.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这太疯狂了。
He released a song a day during the pandemic.
疫情期间，他每天发布一首歌曲。
Jennifer Groh: Woah.
詹妮弗·格罗：哇哦。
Jennifer Groh: Whoa!
詹妮弗·格罗：哇！
Andrew Huberman: Great songs.
安德鲁·休伯曼：很棒的歌曲。
And occasionally, because I'm such a fan of his music, I'll say, "There's that one song, like, what's that lyric?"
有时，因为我非常喜欢他的音乐，我会说，“有一首歌，比如，那句歌词是什么？”
Jennifer Groh: Uh-huh.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And he'll say, "Oh, yeah, no, I don't remember." And then, he'll start, and then he'll remember it.
安德鲁·休伯曼：他会说，“哦，是的，不，我不记得了。”然后，他就会开始，然后他就会记住这件事。
And, I mean, he's got thousands of songs in his library of songs he's written and sings.
而且，我的意思是，他的歌曲库中有数千首他创作和演唱的歌曲。
Jennifer Groh: Uh-huh.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And I said, "So when you're on stage, how does it work?" He said, "As long as I can remember the first two words or three words of a verse, the rest just kind of spills out of me."
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我说，“那么当你在舞台上时，它是如何运作的？”他说：“只要我能记住一首诗的前两个词或三个词，其余的词就会从我的脑海中溢出。”
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Yes.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I think that's how song organizes language.
Andrew Huberman：我认为这就是歌曲组织语言的方式。
Because it's very hard to memorize a speech.
因为记住演讲稿非常困难。
But you can memorize a song, no problem.
但你可以记住一首歌，没问题。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah, and that's my experience, too, that if I know the first couple of words of a verse, I've got the rest of the verse.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的，这也是我的经验，如果我知道一首诗的前几个单词，我就知道这节诗的其余部分。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Yeah, it's so interesting.
是的，这太有趣了。
So in the brain...
于是脑子里...
We haven't talked too much about brain structures yet, but maybe we can do that.
我们还没有过多讨论大脑结构，但也许我们可以做到这一点。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah, right.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的，对。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: And not to fill people's minds with names of things, because I always say, like, it doesn't matter if it's called the superior colliculus or the superior schminliculus.
安德鲁·休伯曼：不要让人们的头脑充满事物的名称，因为我总是说，无论它被称为上丘还是上丘脑，都没有关系。
Andrew Huberman: It doesn't matter, unless...
安德鲁·休伯曼：没关系，除非……
Jennifer Groh: It doesn't matter.
詹妮弗·格罗：没关系。
Andrew Huberman: But what's interesting are the properties of these different brain structures.
Andrew Huberman：但有趣的是这些不同大脑结构的特性。
Jennifer Groh: Right, right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对，对。
Andrew Huberman: So, I think about the ears as, you know, separating different frequencies of sound, and then there's a bunch of other important stuff.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，我认为耳朵是分离不同频率的声音，然后还有很多其他重要的东西。
No disrespect to the auditory neuroscientists.
没有对听觉神经科学家的不尊重。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: But, as you said, in the superior colliculus is where hearing, and vision, and the other senses come together.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但是，正如你所说，上丘是听觉、视觉和其他感官聚集的地方。
They're mapped onto one another.
它们相互映射。
Jennifer Groh: It turns out that the story is more complicated and more interesting than that.
Jennifer Groh：事实证明，这个故事比这更复杂、更有趣。
I got hooked on that particular study that I mentioned at the beginning.
我对我在开头提到的这项特定研究着迷。
So, this was auditory signals in the superior colliculus being affected by the position of the eyes at the time the sound was presented.
因此，这是上丘中的听觉信号受到声音呈现时眼睛位置的影响。
And now, our audience knows about how sound is localized.
现在，我们的观众知道声音是如何定位的。
We haven't talked that much about how visual information is localized.
我们还没有过多讨论视觉信息如何本地化。
Jennifer Groh: I think because mostly that's fairly obvious, that your eye is kind of a little camera, and light hits a particular location on the retina, and that retinal location tells us what the location of the visual stimulus is.
Jennifer Groh：我认为这是相当明显的，你的眼睛就像一个小相机，光线照射到视网膜上的特定位置，视网膜位置告诉我们视觉刺激的位置是什么。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: But it tells us the location of the visual stimulus with respect to the direction the eyes are pointing.
Jennifer Groh：但它告诉我们视觉刺激相对于眼睛指向的方向的位置。
But our sound localization cues are with respect to, where's the sound with respect to the head.
但我们的声音定位线索是关于声音相对于头部的位置的。
So, this finding that neurons were responsive to sound but cared very much about the position of the eyes was really a startling finding when it first came about.
因此，神经元对声音有反应但非常关心眼睛的位置这一发现在刚出现时确实是一个令人震惊的发现。
Jennifer Groh: When I set up my own lab, I basically set out to find out, "Well, where does this computation happen?
Jennifer Groh：当我建立自己的实验室时，我基本上是想弄清楚，“那么，这个计算在哪里发生？
Where is the brain incorporating information about eye movements into the processing of sound?" We knew from the literature was, "Okay, the superior colliculus is one of the places, but does it happen in the superior colliculus, or does it happen in a different brain area?"
大脑在哪里将眼球运动的信息融入到声音的处理中？”我们从文献中知道，“好吧，上丘是其中之一，但它是发生在上丘，还是发生在不同的大脑区域？”
Jennifer Groh: And so we kind of marched along the auditory pathway in brain areas that, I call them part of the auditory pathway, because they're much more closely connected to the ear than to anything else, and because at the time, nobody thought there were visual signals in these areas.
詹妮弗·格罗：所以我们沿着大脑区域的听觉通路前进，我称它们为听觉通路的一部分，因为它们与耳朵的联系比其他任何东西都紧密得多，而且因为当时没有人认为这些区域存在视觉信号。
We thought it was just auditory.
我们以为这只是听觉。
That, too, turned out not to be true.
事实证明这也不是真的。
But they're definitely much more auditory than visual.
但它们绝对更多的是听觉而非视觉。
Jennifer Groh: And what we found was that in each of these areas, eye movements affect the auditory signals there, too, even though they weren't in this convergent structure of the superior colliculus.
Jennifer Groh：我们发现，在这些区域中，眼球运动也会影响那里的听觉信号，尽管它们并不位于上丘的会聚结构中。
So, we decided that it would take a long time to march through every brain area, and that it might be worth sort of jumping over a few brain areas and looking in the ear itself.
因此，我们认为遍历每个大脑区域需要很长时间，并且可能值得跳过一些大脑区域并查看耳朵本身。
Jennifer Groh: So, I need to give the audience a little bit more information about what is possible in the ear and why that seemed like a reasonable thing to do.
Jennifer Groh：所以，我需要向观众提供更多关于耳朵中可能发生的事情以及为什么这看起来是合理的事情的信息。
It has some little muscles in it.
它里面有一些小肌肉。
There are two muscles that control the bones of the middle ear.
有两块肌肉控制中耳的骨骼。
And then, inside the cochlea, there are cells called "outer hair cells" that can actually expand and contract, just the way a little muscle could.
然后，在耳蜗内部，有一些称为“外毛细胞”的细胞，它们实际上可以扩张和收缩，就像小肌肉一样。
Andrew Huberman: We should explain.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我们应该解释一下。
The cochlea is this snail-shaped structure that has, essentially, we call them neurons, but these sensory cells, that vibrate according to the frequency of the sound, and this is critical for our perception of sound.
耳蜗是一种蜗牛形状的结构，本质上我们称之为神经元，但这些感觉细胞根据声音的频率振动，这对于我们对声音的感知至关重要。
Jennifer Groh: Yes.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Exactly.
詹妮弗·格罗：没错。
Andrew Huberman: And you have one on each side.
Andrew Huberman：两边各有一个。
Jennifer Groh: You have one on each side.
Jennifer Groh：两边各有一个。
It's snail-shaped, and it's connected.
它是蜗牛形状的，并且是相连的。
The vestibular, your balance structures, are also connected to this as well.
前庭，即你的平衡结构，也与此有关。
And to just describe the flow of information, you have got your outer ear, you've got your ear canal, you have your eardrum, you've got these little bones that connect the eardrum to the cochlea.
为了描述信息的流动，你有你的外耳，你有你的耳道，你有你的鼓膜，你有这些连接鼓膜和耳蜗的小骨头。
And so, there's muscles that affect the motion of those little bones, and then there's cells inside the cochlea that can also act like muscles.
因此，有一些肌肉会影响这些小骨头的运动，然后耳蜗内的细胞也可以像肌肉一样发挥作用。
Jennifer Groh: These structures get input from the brain.
Jennifer Groh：这些结构从大脑获取输入。
So, we thought, well, if they're getting top-down input from the brain, are they getting a top-down input from the brain that carries information about the position of the eyes?
所以，我们想，如果他们从大脑获得自上而下的输入，他们是否从大脑获得自上而下的输入，其中包含有关眼睛位置的信息？
It seemed kind of like a wild possibility, but not completely out of left field.
这似乎是一种疯狂的可能性，但也并非完全超出了人们的想象。
Like, there was a possible mechanism here that we could imagine.
就像，这里有一个我们可以想象的可能机制。
Jennifer Groh: And the neat thing about this is that we didn't have to do something, like, stick an electrode into these muscles, because they're attached to the bones and attached to the eardrum.
Jennifer Groh：这方面的巧妙之处在于，我们不必做任何事情，比如将电极插入这些肌肉，因为它们附着在骨骼和耳膜上。
And so, if they were being manipulated by a top-down signal from the brain, they would tug these bones, and that would tug the eardrum.
因此，如果它们被来自大脑的自上而下的信号操纵，它们就会拉动这些骨头，从而拉动耳膜。
Jennifer Groh: And when the eardrum moves, normally it moves in response to sound, but if it moves in the absence of sound, it's going to make a sound.
Jennifer Groh：当耳膜移动时，通常它会响应声音而移动，但如果它在没有声音的情况下移动，它就会发出声音。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: So, you could put a microphone in the ear canal to see whether or not anything was happening in connection with eye movements.
Jennifer Groh：所以，你可以在耳道中放置一个麦克风，看看是否发生了与眼球运动有关的事情。
And this, too, wasn't out in left field to do this, because there's already kind of known signals generated by these kinds of structures that are measured by clinicians, by audiologists, and otolaryngologists.
这也不是左领域要做的事情，因为临床医生、听力学家和耳鼻喉科医生已经测量了此类结构产生的已知信号。
You can put a microphone in the ear, and you can measure things called otoacoustic emissions.
您可以将麦克风放入耳朵中，然后可以测量称为耳声发射的东西。
Andrew Huberman: The base of your ears are making sounds, folks.
Andrew Huberman：各位，你们的耳朵底部正在发出声音。
Jennifer Groh: Your ears are making sounds, folks.
Jennifer Groh：各位，你们的耳朵正在发出声音。
Andrew Huberman: I know.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我知道。
I know, it's weird.
我知道，这很奇怪。
Jennifer Groh: It's kind of wild.
Jennifer Groh：这有点疯狂。
Andrew Huberman: Some people make more of them than others.
Andrew Huberman：有些人比其他人制造更多。
Yeah.
是的。
Jennifer Groh: Some people make more of them than others, exactly.
Jennifer Groh：确实，有些人比其他人制造更多。
Jennifer Groh: So, we wanted to know if any of these little sounds were being generated with eye movements.
Jennifer Groh：所以，我们想知道这些小声音是否是由眼球运动产生的。
And I wouldn't be here telling you this story if it didn't turn out that, yes, they do.
如果事实并非如此，我就不会在这里告诉你们这个故事，是的，他们确实做到了。
So, we were able to measure that the eardrum is basically moving in connection with every eye movement, every saccadic eye movement.
因此，我们能够测量到鼓膜基本上是与每次眼球运动、每次眼跳运动相关的运动。
These are the fast, jerky eye movements.
这些是快速、不稳定的眼球运动。
There's other kinds of eye movements, and we haven't yet tested them.
还有其他类型的眼球运动，我们尚未对其进行测试。
Jennifer Groh: The signal is very precisely time-locked to the onset of the eye movement.
Jennifer Groh：该信号与眼球运动的开始时间非常精确地锁定。
And the effect is different in the two ears, so that if your eyes are moving to the left, the eardrum on the right is going to kind of bulge inward, then outward, then inward.
两只耳朵的效果是不同的，所以如果你的眼睛向左移动，右侧的耳膜就会向内凸出，然后向外凸出，然后向内凸出。
I might have this backwards, but whatever the right ear is doing, the left ear is doing the opposite, so that the eardrums are going to be moving in the same direction.
我可能会把这个倒过来，但无论右耳在做什么，左耳都会做相反的事情，这样耳膜就会朝同一方向移动。
One is going to be inward when the other is going outward.
当一个人向外时，一个人会向内。
Andrew Huberman: Like a wave.
安德鲁·休伯曼：就像波浪一样。
Jennifer Groh: Like a wave, exactly.
Jennifer Groh：就像波浪一样。
Like a wave, not like a-
像波浪，而不是像-
Andrew Huberman: Not like flapping.
Andrew Huberman：不像扑动。
Jennifer Groh: Not like flapping.
Jennifer Groh：不像扑动。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Exactly.
詹妮弗·格罗：没错。
You know, we're still actually at pretty early days in understanding this process and what it's for.
你知道，我们实际上还处于了解这个过程及其用途的早期阶段。
But it's a very precise signal.
但这是一个非常精确的信号。
It turns out to carry information about how far the eyes are moving to the left or to the right, as well as a bit less, but some information about vertical movements as well.
事实证明，它携带了有关眼睛向左或向右移动多远的信息，以及少量但也有一些有关垂直移动的信息。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: And we think that this may be kind of the first step in that integration of visual and auditory information.
Jennifer Groh：我们认为这可能是视觉和听觉信息整合的第一步。
Andrew Huberman: Which would be the critical first step if the major goal of this integration of visual and auditory is for localization of sounds.
Andrew Huberman：如果视觉和听觉整合的主要目标是声音定位，那么这将是关键的第一步。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: Because, you know, as a neuroscientist there's so many different areas of neuroscience.
安德鲁·休伯曼：因为，你知道，作为一名神经科学家，神经科学有很多不同的领域。
I used to marvel at-- You know, you go to a meeting, you got people saying consciousness and working on consciousness.
我曾经惊叹于——你知道，你去参加一个会议，有人谈论意识并致力于意识。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: You have people trying to figure out how a single photoreceptor works or a single hair cell works.
Andrew Huberman：人们试图弄清楚单个光感受器或单个毛细胞的工作原理。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And so, when I think about a sensory system, I think about layers of sophistication and how they likely evolved.
Andrew Huberman：所以，当我想到感觉系统时，我会想到复杂的层次以及它们可能如何进化。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Like, very briefly, I mean, the visual system first evolved to detect light and dark on the order of 24-hours, so you know the difference between nighttime and daytime, which means even with the total inability to see objects, you are safer if you know when to stay in and when to go out.
Andrew Huberman：简单来说，我的意思是，视觉系统首先进化为以 24 小时为单位检测光明和黑暗，因此你知道夜间和白天之间的差异，这意味着即使完全看不到物体，如果你知道何时留在家里以及何时出去，你会更安全。
Andrew Huberman: And then at some point, we evolved the ability to...
Andrew Huberman：然后在某个时候，我们进化出了……的能力。
probably motion detection came before the ability to see detail, because it's way more important to know if something's big, and coming at you big and moving away.
也许运动检测出现在查看细节的能力之前，因为更重要的是知道某物是否很大，并且向你袭来并离开。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Or help you stay oriented, like with respect to knowing what's up and what's down, and staying upright.
或者帮助您保持方向，例如知道什么是上、什么是下，并保持直立。
Andrew Huberman: Or-
安德鲁·休伯曼：或者-
Andrew Huberman: Right.
安德鲁·休伯曼：对。
Andrew Huberman: That's right.
安德鲁·休伯曼：没错。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And just like the falling reflex is probably the most important reflex in the vestibular system to brace yourself, so you have a lesser chance of dying if you fall.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：就像跌倒反射可能是前庭系统中支撑自己的最重要的反射一样，所以如果您跌倒，您死亡的机会就会较小。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Right?
安德鲁·休伯曼：对吗？
Everyone...
大家...
you know.
你知道。
If your visual world suddenly goes up very quick, you know you're falling.
如果你的视觉世界突然快速上升，你就知道你正在下降。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Right, right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对，对。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: And then comes, you know, additional layers of sophistication, like fine detail, color vision.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：然后，你知道，还有额外的复杂层次，比如精细的细节、色彩视觉。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Color vision probably evolved last.
安德鲁·休伯曼：色觉可能是最后进化的。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: At least trichromatic color vision.
Andrew Huberman：至少有三色视觉。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And then, so in the auditory system, I think the same thing.
安德鲁·休伯曼：然后，在听觉系统中，我认为也是同样的事情。
You need to be able to know probably, which direction a sound is coming from.
您需要能够大概知道声音来自哪个方向。
Is it low or high frequency?
是低频还是高频？
And on and on.
不断地。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: You know, and so I think about that, like in the motor system, that the oldest we know the evolutionary history of the genes that are expressed in, like, the motor neurons that move the trunk are the same ones that undulating fish use.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你知道，所以我认为，就像在运动系统中一样，我们知道的最古老的基因的进化历史，例如，移动躯干的运动神经元与起伏的鱼使用的运动神经元相同。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Mm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Fish.
詹妮弗·格罗：鱼。
Jennifer Groh: Uh-huh.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And, actually, this will get us back to sound, I promise.
安德鲁·休伯曼：实际上，我保证，这将使我们恢复正常。
Jennifer Groh: Uh-huh.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And then these additional layers of motor neurons that have been added through evolution, the ones that flap the fins.
安德鲁·休伯曼：然后是通过进化添加的这些额外的运动神经元层，即拍动鳍的层。
Andrew Huberman: And then the final addition are the motor neurons that control fine movement of the fingers.
Andrew Huberman：最后添加的是控制手指精细运动的运动神经元。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: So I have this kind of obsession with this, because if you look at music that's very primitive, right?
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以我对此很着迷，因为如果你看音乐，那是非常原始的，对吧？
Like, you just look historically speaking, I'm not casting judgment on music, just historically.
就像，你只是从历史的角度来看，我不是对音乐做出判断，只是从历史的角度来看。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: It's rich in bass tones relative to high-frequency tones, and dance that we assign as primitive tends to involve a lot of movement of the trunk.
Andrew Huberman：相对于高频音调，它的低音音调丰富，而我们认为原始的舞蹈往往涉及大量躯干运动。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: People aren't just, like, flapping their fingers and toes out there, right?
Andrew Huberman：人们不只是拍打手指和脚趾，对吧？
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
Andrew Huberman: Now, so as you go from low to high frequency, there's a body map of low to high frequency.
Andrew Huberman：现在，当你从低频到高频时，就会有一个从低频到高频的身体图。
Jennifer Groh: Mm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And actually, when people are making a very detailed point, they'll often point with their fingers, they'll move their fingers.
安德鲁·休伯曼：实际上，当人们提出非常详细的观点时，他们经常会用手指指出，他们会移动手指。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: But when we want to emphasize a big point, we use our whole body.
Andrew Huberman：但是当我们想要强调一个重点时，我们会使用我们的整个身体。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: We put our whole body into it.
Andrew Huberman：我们全身心投入其中。
So, I actually believe that all the sensory systems are mapped to one another in a way that goes from low frequency to high frequency.
所以，我实际上相信所有的感觉系统都以一种从低频到高频的方式相互映射。
Jennifer Groh: Uh-huh.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Intensity is important, and direction is important.
Andrew Huberman：强度很重要，方向也很重要。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: Me pointing at you, which even feels funny to do because we're on good terms.
Andrew Huberman：我指着你，这甚至感觉很有趣，因为我们关系很好。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: As far as I'm concerned, we're on good terms.
Andrew Huberman：就我而言，我们关系很好。
Jennifer Groh: I didn't blink.
詹妮弗·格罗：我没有眨眼。
Andrew Huberman: You know, is very different than me standing back.
Andrew Huberman：你知道，这和我站在后面有很大不同。
And if I come at you with my whole body, it's very different than if I point a finger, for instance.
例如，如果我用我的整个身体来攻击你，这与我用手指指着你是非常不同的。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Right?
安德鲁·休伯曼：对吗？
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: So.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以。
I feel like these things probably evolved from this in parallel, and as you pointed out before, they serve an adaptive role.
我觉得这些东西可能是从这个平行演变而来的，正如你之前指出的，它们发挥着适应性作用。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: So, the fact that position of the eyes can change the way I hear seems wild, and that's a wild thing.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，眼睛的位置可以改变我听到的方式这一事实似乎很疯狂，这真是一件疯狂的事情。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Is the inverse also true?
Andrew Huberman：反之亦然吗？
Is where I listen affecting, how my eye...
是我聆听的地方，我的眼睛如何影响……
Yeah, where I hear something typically directs my head movement and my eye movement.
是的，当我听到某些声音时，通常会引导我的头部运动和眼球运动。
So this is just the same thing in reverse.
所以这只是相反的事情。
Jennifer Groh: I think it's all part of an integrated system.
Jennifer Groh：我认为这都是一个集成系统的一部分。
You know, we talked about the top-down control over the ear, but there's a lot of top-down control over vision, too.
你知道，我们讨论了对耳朵的自上而下的控制，但对视觉也有很多自上而下的控制。
And some of it is a little easier to understand than what I just described, because blinking is top-down control over vision.
其中一些比我刚才描述的更容易理解，因为眨眼是对视觉的自上而下的控制。
Eye movement's top-down control over vision.
眼球运动对视觉的自上而下的控制。
Focusing the lens of your eye, right?
聚焦你眼睛的晶状体，对吗？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: That's also top-down control.
Jennifer Groh：这也是自上而下的控制。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: There are descending connections from the brain to the retina itself that nobody understands.
詹妮弗·格罗：从大脑到视网膜本身存在着递减的联系，但没有人理解。
Apologies to the people working on this.
向从事此工作的人员致歉。
I really want you to keep working on this, but I feel like there isn't a clear theory yet about what exactly these descending connections might be doing.
我真的希望你继续研究这个问题，但我觉得目前还没有一个明确的理论来解释这些下降的连接到底会做什么。
Jennifer Groh: From what I know about it, they are pretty diffuse connections, pretty broad branching of neurons throughout the retina, or not throughout the whole retina, but probably not well-suited to manipulating fine spatial detail, but could very well be suited to incorporating some kind of circadian influence to the retina itself, or something else that you want the same signal to be broadly available throughout the retina.
Jennifer Groh：据我所知，它们是相当分散的连接，整个视网膜或不整个视网膜的神经元分支相当广泛，但可能不太适合操纵精细的空间细节，但很可能非常适合将某种昼夜节律影响纳入视网膜本身，或者您希望相同的信号在整个视网膜上广泛使用的其他东西。
Andrew Huberman: I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Helix Sleep.
Andrew Huberman：我想稍微休息一下，并向我们的赞助商 Helix Sleep 表示感谢。
Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep needs.
Helix Sleep 生产根据您独特的睡眠需求定制的床垫和枕头。
Now, I've spoken many times before on this podcast about the fact that getting a great night's sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance.
现在，我之前在这个播客上多次谈到过这样一个事实：睡个好觉是心理健康、身体健康和表现的基础。
When we aren't doing that on a consistent basis, everything suffers, and when we are sleeping well and enough, our mental health, our physical health, and our performance in all endeavors improves markedly.
当我们不能始终如一地做到这一点时，一切都会受到影响，而当我们睡眠良好且充足时，我们的心理健康、身体健康以及我们在所有努力中的表现都会显着改善。
Andrew Huberman: Now, the mattress you sleep on makes a huge difference in terms of the quality of sleep that you get each night.
Andrew Huberman：现在，您所睡的床垫会对您每晚的睡眠质量产生巨大影响。
How soft that mattress is, how firm it is, how breathable it is, all play into how well you'll sleep, how much deep sleep you get, how much rapid eye movement sleep, and it needs to be tailored to your unique sleep needs.
床垫的柔软程度、硬度、透气程度，都会影响您的睡眠质量、睡眠深度、快速眼动睡眠时间，并且需要根据您独特的睡眠需求进行定制。
So if you go to the Helix website, you can take a brief two-minute quiz, and it will ask you questions such as, "Do you sleep on your back, your side, or your stomach?
因此，如果你访问 Helix 网站，你可以做一个两分钟的简短测验，它会问你诸如此类的问题：“你睡的是仰卧、侧卧还是俯卧？
Do you tend to run hot or cold during the night?" Things of that sort.
你晚上容易发热还是怕冷？”诸如此类的事情。
Maybe you know the answers to those questions, maybe you don't.
也许您知道这些问题的答案，也许您不知道。
Andrew Huberman: Either way, Helix will match you to the ideal mattress for you.
Andrew Huberman：无论哪种方式，Helix 都会为您匹配理想的床垫。
For me, that turned out to be the Dusk mattress, D-U-S-K.
对我来说，这就是 Dusk 床垫，D-U-S-K。
I started sleeping on a Dusk mattress about three and a half years ago, and it's been far and away the best sleep that I've ever had.
大约三年半前，我开始睡在 Dusk 床垫上，这无疑是我睡过的最好的睡眠。
So if you'd like to try Helix, you can go to helixsleep.com/huberman, take that two-minute sleep quiz, and Helix will match you to a mattress that is customized for your unique sleep needs.
因此，如果您想尝试 Helix，可以访问 helixsleep.com/huberman，参加两分钟的睡眠测验，Helix 将为您匹配专为您独特的睡眠需求定制的床垫。
Right now, Helix is giving a special offer to Huberman podcast listeners of up to 27 percent off sitewide.
目前，Helix 正在为 Huberman 播客听众提供全站最高 27% 的特别优惠。
Again, that's helixsleep.com/huberman.
再说一遍，这是 helixsleep.com/huberman。
Andrew Huberman: I want to talk a little bit about physical spaces.
Andrew Huberman：我想谈谈物理空间。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Recently, I was in New York, and someone took me to Grand Central, where there are these incredible arches in one of the hallways there.
安德鲁·休伯曼：最近，我在纽约，有人带我去了中央车站，在那里的一个走廊里有这些令人难以置信的拱门。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: People should check this out.
Andrew Huberman：人们应该检查一下。
It's really, really cool.
这真的非常非常酷。
Jennifer Groh: It is beautiful.
詹妮弗·格罗：很漂亮。
Andrew Huberman: It's beautiful.
安德鲁·休伯曼：很漂亮。
I mean, you have this high-ceiling, main kind of chamber room of Grand Central.
我的意思是，你有中央车站的这种高天花板的主要房间。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And there's also a hallway off to one side where you can go into a corner.
Andrew Huberman：一侧还有一条走廊，你可以从那里进入一个角落。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Do you know about this?
安德鲁·休伯曼：你知道吗？
And you can face into the corner, like you are going to...
你可以面向角落，就像你将要......
Jennifer Groh: Uh-huh.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Like you're facing the corner in shame, but you're not, and whoever you're with can go to the opposite diagonal corner.
Andrew Huberman：就像你羞愧地面对角落，但你不是，无论你和谁在一起都可以去对面的对角。
Jennifer Groh: Oh, yeah, yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：哦，是的，是的。
Andrew Huberman: The ceiling is shaped like a somewhat of a dome.
Andrew Huberman：天花板的形状有点像圆顶。
Jennifer Groh: Uh-huh.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: It's contoured, but it's more or less a small dome.
Andrew Huberman：它是有轮廓的，但它或多或少是一个小圆顶。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: But you are easily 25 feet away from this person that you're there with.
Andrew Huberman：但是你很容易就距离和你在一起的那个人 25 英尺远。
Jennifer Groh: Yep.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Again, diagonal corner, and if you speak at a very, very low volume, they can hear you on the opposite side.
Andrew Huberman：再说一次，对角线，如果你说话的音量非常非常低，他们就能在对面听到你的声音。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah, yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的，是的。
Andrew Huberman: And if they speak, you can hear them, and what's wild is there's a lot of noise in the environment.
Andrew Huberman：如果他们说话，你就能听到他们的声音，而令人疯狂的是环境中有很多噪音。
This is Grand Central Station.
这是中央车站。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah, yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的，是的。
Andrew Huberman: And we played with this a little bit.
Andrew Huberman：我们对此进行了一些尝试。
Like, if high-frequency sounds do seem to travel a little bit better in this environment, because if one person laughs, you can hear it very clearly.
例如，如果高频声音在这种环境中确实传播得更好一些，因为如果一个人笑，你可以很清楚地听到它。
Jennifer Groh: Okay.
詹妮弗·格罗：好的。
Jennifer Groh: In that particular setting.
Jennifer Groh：在那个特定的环境中。
Yeah.
是的。
Jennifer Groh: Uh-huh.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: But you can whisper, and they'll hear you, and they're 25 feet away in a major city with a ton of city noise.
Andrew Huberman：但是你可以低声说话，他们会听到你的声音，而且他们在 25 英尺外的大城市，有大量的城市噪音。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: And so obviously, the sound waves are traveling along the ceiling.
安德鲁·休伯曼：很明显，声波沿着天花板传播。
Jennifer Groh: On that parabola.
Jennifer Groh：在那条抛物线上。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: And, it's a...
安德鲁·胡伯曼：而且，这是一个......
You know, no pun intended, it's a mind bend to experience sound coming from a distance far away, not through a device, that is clearly being spoken at a low level, like a whisper, but you can hear it.
你知道，没有双关语的意思，体验来自很远距离的声音是一种思维弯曲，而不是通过设备，这显然是低声说话的，就像耳语一样，但你可以听到它。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: In the same way that it always weirds me out when I'm in San Diego in the winter, and the days are short, but it's, like, 80 degrees.
Andrew Huberman：就像我冬天在圣地亚哥时总是感到很奇怪一样，白天很短，但温度大约是 80 度。
Like, when days are short, it's supposed to be colder.
就像，白天短的时候，天气应该会更冷。
Jennifer Groh: Yes.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Love San Diego.
安德鲁·休伯曼：爱圣地亚哥。
Jennifer Groh: Yes.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Great tacos, great people, but they're always talking about tacos down there.
Andrew Huberman：很棒的炸玉米饼，很棒的人，但他们总是在那里谈论炸玉米饼。
But it's so strange to be in a short day where it's hot.
但在这么短的一天里却很热，这真是太奇怪了。
Jennifer Groh: Yes.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Because even if I go visit my relatives in Argentina, who experience Christmas in the summer, the days are long, and it's hot.
安德鲁·休伯曼：因为即使我去阿根廷探望在夏天过圣诞节的亲戚，白天也很长，而且很热。
And it's Christmas, and Santa Claus is supposed to be on a sleigh in the snow, but that's a whole different thing.
今天是圣诞节，圣诞老人应该在雪地里坐着雪橇，但那是完全不同的事情。
Jennifer Groh: Okay, yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：好的，是的。
Andrew Huberman: But there's something about the way our nervous system is mapped, where we expect soft sounds to not travel very far.
Andrew Huberman：但是我们的神经系统的映射方式存在一些问题，我们预计柔和的声音不会传播很远。
Jennifer Groh: Sure.
詹妮弗·格罗：当然。
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman: The opposite would be, like, shouting, and your voice just disappears even though the person's right in front of you.
Andrew Huberman：相反的情况是，比如大喊大叫，即使那个人就在你面前，你的声音也会消失。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: It is so weird, and I feel like people should experience this naturally occurring experiment.
Andrew Huberman：这太奇怪了，我觉得人们应该体验这个自然发生的实验。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah, yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的，是的。
Andrew Huberman: Because you walk away from that understanding sound intensity and frequency and localization completely differently.
Andrew Huberman：因为你对声音强度、频率和定位的理解完全不同。
Jennifer Groh: Uh-huh.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Uh-huh.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: It changed the way I think about this, and it has nothing to do with being a neuroscientist.
Andrew Huberman：它改变了我对此的看法，这与神经科学家的身份无关。
Like, that's crazy.
就像，这太疯狂了。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I can hear a whisper from 25 feet away, and I wondered, "Is this what it's like to be a wolf?" That would be really cool.
Andrew Huberman：我可以听到 25 英尺外的低语声，我想知道，“这就是狼的感觉吗？”那真是太酷了。
It would also be really irritating, because you don't want to hear all the things that people are saying all the time.
这也会让人非常恼火，因为你不想听到人们一直在说的所有事情。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Jennifer Groh: Right, I mean, this is one of the problems with hearing aids.
Jennifer Groh：是的，我的意思是，这是助听器的问题之一。
They amplify everything.
他们放大一切。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: It's not replacing what your brain does.
Jennifer Groh：它并不能取代你大脑的功能。
It's not replacing what your ear normally does.
它不会取代您耳朵的正常功能。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
It's such a mind bend.
这真是一个思维弯曲。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And it's so cool, and it-- Provided you're in New York, it costs nothing to do it.
Andrew Huberman：这太酷了，而且——只要你在纽约，就不需要花费任何费用。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: It's just that you just have to wait your turn.
Andrew Huberman：只是你必须等待轮到你。
People are catching on to this or it's been known for a while.
人们正在意识到这一点，或者说它已经众所周知了一段时间了。
I'd like to get your thoughts on the opposite example, where if you go into, like a high-ceiling cathedral church.
我想了解您对相反的例子的想法，如果您进入一个高天花板的大教堂。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: What do high ceilings do for our perception of sound, given that there's a lot of space for the sound to travel?
Andrew Huberman：考虑到声音传播的空间很大，高高的天花板对我们对声音的感知有什么影响？
Jennifer Groh: I'm not sure that I can add something that's really specific to that particular circumstance, but to say more generally that the sounds that we experience in a particular setting are really the combination of all of the reflective surfaces that are in that setting.
Jennifer Groh：我不确定我是否可以添加一些针对特定情况的内容，但更一般地说，我们在特定环境中体验到的声音实际上是该环境中所有反射表面的组合。
And so, if you have a carpeted room, that's going to absorb sound on the floor, and so it's going to take out one part of what you would be hearing in a room that is not carpeted.
因此，如果您的房间铺有地毯，它就会吸收地板上的声音，从而消除您在没有铺地毯的房间中听到的声音的一部分。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: And the high ceilings, I would imagine that would kind of depend on what the surfaces are on the ceiling.
Jennifer Groh：高高的天花板，我想这取决于天花板上的表面。
One thing that'll happen in that kind of setting is that the sounds that go up that way, if it's a hard surface, they'll probably bounce off and come back down, but with a long delay.
在这种环境中会发生的一件事是，如果是坚硬的表面，那么以这种方式上升的声音可能会反弹并返回，但会有很长的延迟。
And once the delays get pretty long, then you do start to hear it as a whole separate sound.
一旦延迟变得相当长，你就会开始听到它作为一个整体独立的声音。
Andrew Huberman: Almost like an echo.
Andrew Huberman：几乎就像回声。
Jennifer Groh: Not even almost like an echo, but actually an echo.
Jennifer Groh：甚至不像回声，但实际上是回声。
Andrew Huberman: Do you think this is used to amplify aspects of the music?
Andrew Huberman：你认为这是用来放大音乐的各个方面吗？
Jennifer Groh: Yeah, maybe that's why some of the older genres of music can be a little slower.
Jennifer Groh：是的，也许这就是为什么一些较旧的音乐流派可能会慢一些。
A lot more-
还有很多-
Andrew Huberman: Like Gregorian chants?
安德鲁·休伯曼：就像格里高利圣歌一样？
Jennifer Groh: Yeah, longer sustained notes, because you don't want to have too many transitions from one note to the next.
Jennifer Groh：是的，持续时间较长的音符，因为你不想从一个音符到下一个音符有太多的过渡。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Gregorian chant is a wonderful example of really kind of long, slow, sustained, many different voices blending together, versus a much faster, like Mozart, minuet or something like that.
詹妮弗·格罗：格里高利圣歌是一个很好的例子，它是一种长的、缓慢的、持续的、许多不同的声音混合在一起的声音，而不是更快的声音，比如莫扎特、小步舞曲或类似的东西。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Like, those notes would just jumble together with the kind of delay that we're talking about.
Jennifer Groh：就像，这些音符会与我们正在谈论的那种延迟混在一起。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I mean, I think that the ability to localize sound, we talked about.
Andrew Huberman：是的，我的意思是，我认为我们谈到了声音本地化的能力。
We talked about quality of sound based on high and low frequency.
我们讨论了基于高频和低频的声音质量。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And I confess, I'm a little fixated on this idea that when people join together in sound, that you're communicating something very...
安德鲁·休伯曼：我承认，我有点执着于这样一个想法：当人们用声音聚集在一起时，你正在传达一些非常......
That's the most effective way to communicate a feeling.
这是传达感情最有效的方式。
And people will say, "Well, of course, you go to a concert, and you feel something," but in a concert, right, you have the performers, but the audience is often singing with them.
人们会说，“嗯，当然，你去听音乐会，你会感觉到一些东西，”但是在音乐会上，对吧，你有表演者，但观众经常和他们一起唱歌。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
I know, which is one of the most wonderful things.
我知道，这是最美妙的事情之一。
Andrew Huberman: I recently wondered if...
安德鲁·休伯曼：我最近想知道是否......
I was trying to think back to the '90s, and what created effective movements, and I thought, maybe what we need in America right now is we need, like, music that actually brings people together.
我试图回想 90 年代，以及是什么创造了有效的运动，我想，也许我们现在在美国需要的是真正将人们聚集在一起的音乐。
Jennifer Groh: Uh-huh.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah, yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的，是的。
Andrew Huberman: Sounds really corny, but I really believe this.
Andrew Huberman：听起来很老套，但我真的相信这一点。
Jennifer Groh: No, I do think that would be helpful.
Jennifer Groh：不，我确实认为这会有帮助。
Andrew Huberman: Maybe there are just too many different musical tastes now.
Andrew Huberman：也许现在有太多不同的音乐品味。
Jennifer Groh: So we should start by telling people, "You can't have that taste."
Jennifer Groh：所以我们应该首先告诉人们，“你不能有那种品味。”
Andrew Huberman: Well, or there should be a new one, right?
Andrew Huberman：嗯，或者应该有一个新的，对吧？
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And maybe it should be very primitive.
Andrew Huberman：也许它应该非常原始。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I mean, the haka thing that we talked about earlier is a kind...
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我的意思是，我们之前谈到的哈卡战舞是一种......
it's an angry intention.
这是一种愤怒的意图。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Right?
安德鲁·休伯曼：对吗？
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And this is, I guess, where people will think...
安德鲁·休伯曼：我想，这就是人们会想到的......
Like, my East Coast relatives would be like, "Oh, so you want us all to kumbaya?"
就像，我东海岸的亲戚会说，“哦，所以你想让我们都去昆巴亚？”
Jennifer Groh: Mm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I have relatives from Jersey, so they're like, "I know out there in California, you're all kumbaya." But I think that the...
安德鲁·休伯曼：我有来自泽西岛的亲戚，所以他们会说，“我知道在加利福尼亚州，你们都是库巴亚人。”但我认为...
We're sort of half-joking here.
我们在这里有点半开玩笑。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: So, given the links between the emotion system and sound, and joining in sound...
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，考虑到情感系统和声音之间的联系，以及加入声音......
I mean, maybe this isn't too crazy an idea.
我的意思是，也许这并不是一个太疯狂的想法。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Maybe it's crazy, but who cares?
Andrew Huberman：也许这很疯狂，但谁在乎呢？
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: We have some advantages in science, that we have a comfort with argumentation, you know, with disagreeing about things, but agreeing fundamentally that we're going to go where the facts lead us.
詹妮弗·格罗：我们在科学上有一些优势，我们可以轻松地进行争论，你知道，对事物有不同意见，但从根本上同意我们将走向事实引导我们的方向。
Do you know what I mean?
你知道我的意思吗？
So the disagreement is about what the facts are, but we agree that if we can come to agreement about facts, then we can proceed from there.
因此，分歧在于事实是什么，但我们同意，如果我们能够就事实达成一致，那么我们就可以从那里开始。
Jennifer Groh: But there's a feeling, and I have come to appreciate maybe isn't present in other domains, other kind of, you know, academic domains or areas of the occupations that people have, that may be a little different from what we have in science.
詹妮弗·格罗：但是有一种感觉，我开始意识到，这种感觉可能不存在于其他领域，其他类型的学术领域或人们所从事的职业领域，这可能与我们在科学领域所拥有的有所不同。
Jennifer Groh: You know, and I don't want to make science seem all perfect in all regards, but I think there's a sense of like, "Well, you may not want to hear that I think you're wrong, but we know those kinds of things have to be said."
詹妮弗·格罗：你知道，我不想让科学在各方面看起来都很完美，但我认为有一种感觉，“好吧，你可能不想听到我认为你错了，但我们知道必须说这些事情。”
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: That you're going to have to defend your work in a peer review.
Jennifer Groh：你必须在同行评审中为你的工作辩护。
When you try to get your work published, you're going to have to deal with peer review comments that you may not...
当您尝试发表您的作品时，您将不得不处理您可能不会处理的同行评审意见......
You know, I certainly have had my moments where I've been like, "I cannot believe somebody thought that when I wrote this." You know what I mean?
你知道，我确实也有过这样的时刻：“我不敢相信当我写这篇文章时有人这么想。”你知道我的意思？
Andrew Huberman: Mm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Jennifer Groh: You know, but you go through that emotional period of time, and you're like, "Oh, well, actually, it's kind of...
詹妮弗·格罗：你知道，但你经历了那个情绪化的时期，你会想，“哦，好吧，实际上，这有点......
I can see how it's actually my fault for how I wrote it," you know?
我可以看出这实际上是我写的方式的错，”你知道吗？
That it didn't actually say what I wanted, or it didn't set up the reader to understand the point I was making, so I need to fix this.
它实际上并没有说出我想要的内容，或者它没有让读者理解我的观点，所以我需要解决这个问题。
Jennifer Groh: And yes, you're right that there is a hole in the data here, that it doesn't fully support the hypothesis the way I thought it did, and that's okay.
Jennifer Groh：是的，你说得对，这里的数据有一个漏洞，它没有像我想象的那样完全支持这个假设，但这没关系。
Like, it's okay not to have the story complete.
就像，故事不完整也没关系。
It's okay not to have every detail of it right.
即使每个细节都不正确也没关系。
Just acknowledge that you don't...
只要承认你不...
You know, acknowledge what you think the weaknesses are.
你知道，承认你认为的弱点是什么。
Jennifer Groh: And I kind of don't see people acknowledging weakness in, let's say, the political domain right now.
詹妮弗·格罗：我认为人们目前并没有承认政治领域的弱点。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Like, to acknowledge, "Well, you know, I'd like such and such a thing, but I can see that there's a counterargument to that.
Jennifer Groh：就像承认，“嗯，你知道，我想要这样那样的东西，但我可以看到对此有一个反驳。
How can I address that, or should I change my mind?"
我该如何解决这个问题，或者我应该改变主意吗？”
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I think in science, we have agreements on how to evaluate strength of evidence.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，我认为在科学领域，我们就如何评估证据的强度达成了一致。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And, like, we can't just have one data point and draw a conclusion from that.
Andrew Huberman：而且，我们不能只拥有一个数据点并从中得出结论。
We won't convince anyone, even if we're convinced, and if we should check ourselves.
即使我们被说服了，并且我们是否应该检查自己，我们也不会说服任何人。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Jennifer Groh: Right, right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对，对。
Andrew Huberman: I do have a question about the auditory system again, which is, a number of people, including myself, are obsessed with trying to find what is the optimal thing to listen to, perhaps it's nothing in order to be able to focus.
Andrew Huberman：我确实再次有一个关于听觉系统的问题，那就是，很多人，包括我自己，都痴迷于试图找到最适合听的东西，也许这对于能够集中注意力来说没什么。
Jennifer Groh: Yes.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Mm, mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯，嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Mm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And the data, as I see them, are basically pointing to silence...
安德鲁·休伯曼：据我所知，数据基本上表明沉默......
is best.
是最好的。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And so I have a question about silence, and the voice in our head.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以我有一个关于沉默和我们头脑中的声音的问题。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Uh-huh.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I have a question about that.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我有一个问题。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: But also, it's very clear, based on what we've discussed up until now, that certain frequencies of sound actually play a role in our emotion and cognition.
安德鲁·休伯曼：而且，根据我们迄今为止所讨论的内容，很明显，某些声音频率实际上在我们的情感和认知中发挥着作用。
I will sometimes listen to white noise.
我有时会听白噪音。
There are a number of companies now that put out free content of it's not necessarily binaural beats, but different frequencies that oscillate.
现在有许多公司推出免费内容，这些内容不一定是双耳节拍，而是不同的振荡频率。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: It could be totally placebo, but I don't think so, because they reference a number of studies.
Andrew Huberman：这可能完全是安慰剂，但我不这么认为，因为他们参考了许多研究。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: It looks like you can get some cognitive enhancement or focus enhancement.
Andrew Huberman：看起来你可以获得一些认知增强或注意力增强。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And I use these.
Andrew Huberman：我用这些。
There's some great, you know, study-with-me channels online, where you sit there, and you work while they work.
你知道，有一些很棒的在线跟我学习频道，你可以坐在那儿，在他们工作的时候你也可以工作。
What are your thoughts on the use of sound as a way to change brain state?
您对于使用声音来改变大脑状态有何看法？
Jennifer Groh: Okay, so I want to back up on this question because I think you're asking a pretty deep question.
Jennifer Groh：好的，我想支持这个问题，因为我认为你问的是一个非常深刻的问题。
One might wonder, why would that matter?
人们可能会想，为什么这很重要？
Like, what is actually going on in our brain that that kind of pairing would have an effect, regardless of what might turn out to be sort of the best option?
就像，我们的大脑中到底发生了什么，这种配对会产生影响，无论什么可能是最好的选择？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: And so, one theory that I like to think about a lot is the theory of thought, and what is actually going on in our brains when we think.
Jennifer Groh：所以，我经常思考的一个理论是思想理论，以及当我们思考时我们大脑中实际发生的事情。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: And this theory is that what goes on in our brains when we think might be that we're running simulations related to the thought, using that sensory motor infrastructure of the brain.
詹妮弗·格罗：这个理论是，当我们思考时，我们的大脑可能会使用大脑的感觉运动基础设施来运行与该想法相关的模拟。
Andrew Huberman: Could you elaborate?
安德鲁·休伯曼：你能详细说明一下吗？
Jennifer Groh: So the theory is that, like, maybe when you think about a cat, for example, or you think the concept of a cat, that the mental instantiation of that or the brain mechanism instantiation of having that thought is to run a little simulation, and visual cortex that kind of includes what a cat looks like, a simulation and auditory cortex, that what does a cat sound like?
詹妮弗·格罗：所以理论是，例如，当你想到一只猫时，或者你想到猫的概念时，那个想法的心理实例化或具有这种想法的大脑机制实例化就是运行一些模拟，视觉皮层包括猫的样子，模拟和听觉皮层，猫的声音是什么样的？
And as I'm telling you this, I've used the word cat.
当我告诉你这一点时，我使用了“猫”这个词。
What color cat are you thinking?
你在想什么颜色的猫？
Andrew Huberman: I'm thinking of a gray cat, but I keep smelling kitty litter.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我想到了一只灰猫，但我一直闻到猫砂的味道。
Jennifer Groh: Okay.
詹妮弗·格罗：好的。
Andrew Huberman: Because my sister had cats, and it drove me...
安德鲁·休伯曼：因为我姐姐养猫，这驱使我......
The smell of kitty litter is just so aversive to me.
猫砂的气味让我感到非常厌恶。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
And so you had no hesitation in telling me the color and adding an additional sensory quality.
所以你毫不犹豫地告诉我颜色并添加额外的感官品质。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: So it's a bit of a just-so story, but I think that it's a plausible possibility that that's, in fact, what's happening when we think.
詹妮弗·格罗：所以这有点平淡无奇，但我认为这可能是我们思考时所发生的事情。
And some of what kind of tangentially supports this is that we have many more sensory areas of the brain than monkeys do, than more distant mammalian relatives do.
从侧面支持这一点的是，我们的大脑比猴子和更远的哺乳动物亲戚拥有更多的感觉区域。
Jennifer Groh: As if what might have happened to allow us to become so smart is to, you know, make extra copies of some of these sensory areas of the brain.
詹妮弗·格罗：就好像让我们变得如此聪明的原因是，你知道，对大脑的一些感觉区域进行额外的复制。
And then when you have an extra copy, you're no longer so constrained, right?
然后当你有一个额外的副本时，你就不再那么受限了，对吧？
We don't really see or hear any better than monkeys do.
我们的视力和听力并不比猴子更好。
So what's this extra tissue doing for us?
那么这些额外的组织对我们有什么作用呢？
Possibility is that we're using it to generate these simulations, and that running these simulations is kind of what thought is.
可能性是我们使用它来生成这些模拟，并且运行这些模拟就像思想一样。
Andrew Huberman: Interesting.
安德鲁·休伯曼：有趣。
Is it helpful?
有帮助吗？
Is it adaptive?
是否具有适应性？
Jennifer Groh: Well, it might just be the only game in town.
Jennifer Groh：嗯，这可能是镇上唯一的游戏。
It provides an explanation for why you might be driving on the freeway and having to merge into difficult traffic, and telling your passenger, "Okay, be quiet.
它解释了为什么您可能在高速公路上行驶并不得不汇入拥堵的交通，并告诉您的乘客：“好吧，安静点。
I've got to pay attention now."
我现在必须注意了。”
Andrew Huberman: Hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Why would speech impair you from visual motor, if it wasn't all part of a kind of cognitive system that's in operation?
Jennifer Groh：如果言语不是正在运行的认知系统的一部分，为什么言语会损害你的视觉运动呢？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: And maybe you need to shift some resources away from processing the conversation and towards some...
Jennifer Groh：也许你需要将一些资源从处理对话转移到一些......
You know, actually dealing with the here and now sensory motor task.
你知道，实际上是在处理此时此地的感觉运动任务。
Andrew Huberman: Mm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I like this a lot, and I want to continue down this thread because we've never talked about what thought is on this podcast.
Andrew Huberman：我非常喜欢这个，我想继续这个话题，因为我们从未讨论过这个播客的想法。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And I've wondered, like, why is it that so many of our thoughts are incomplete sentences, they're so fractured?
安德鲁·休伯曼：我想知道，为什么我们的许多想法都是不完整的句子，它们如此支离破碎？
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And if you really just track your thoughts for a moment, you realize they jump around even if they're around some coherent framework or subject.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：如果你真的只是跟踪一下你的想法，你就会意识到它们会跳来跳去，即使它们围绕着一些连贯的框架或主题。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
It's predictable.
这是可以预见的。
Like, you can see the train of thought sometimes.
就像，有时你可以看到思路。
Like, they rarely jump completely in some totally new-
就像，他们很少完全跳入一些全新的——
Andrew Huberman: Sorry, I'm laughing.
安德鲁·休伯曼：抱歉，我在笑。
For some people, they really do.
对于某些人来说，他们确实如此。
Jennifer Groh: Do they really?
詹妮弗·格罗：真的吗？
Andrew Huberman: They do.
安德鲁·休伯曼：确实如此。
Jennifer Groh: Okay.
詹妮弗·格罗：好的。
Andrew Huberman: They do.
安德鲁·休伯曼：确实如此。
Sort of like the liminal state between awake and sleep.
有点像清醒和睡眠之间的阈值状态。
Jennifer Groh: Uh-huh.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I like to lie there right as I'm waking up, and try and stay on a thought thread.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我喜欢在醒来时躺在那里，并尝试保持思绪。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: And things just-
Jennifer Groh：事情只是——
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And then I'll just chuckle to myself 30 seconds later, it's someplace completely...
Andrew Huberman：30 秒后我就会暗自笑起来，这完全是在某个地方......
Jennifer Groh: Gone somewhere.
詹妮弗·格罗：去了某个地方。
Andrew Huberman: Because in that liminal state, you're still in a pseudo-dream state.
安德鲁·休伯曼：因为在那种阈限状态下，你仍然处于伪梦状态。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: One time in my class, one of my undergraduate classes, I asked people to try to without thinking too much, come up with a word that was totally and completely unrelated to anything that we had just been talking about.
詹妮弗·格罗：有一次，在我的本科课程中，我要求人们在不考虑太多的情况下尝试想出一个与我们刚才谈论的任何事情完全无关的词。
Andrew Huberman: Ooh.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哦。
Jennifer Groh: I'm going to give you a moment, but not too long.
Jennifer Groh：我会给你一点时间，但不会太久。
Andrew Huberman: Mm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Okay.
詹妮弗·格罗：好的。
Andrew Huberman: It's really tough.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这真的很难。
Jennifer Groh: Isn't it hard?
詹妮弗·格罗：这不难吗？
Andrew Huberman: The first word that leapt to mind was cacophony, and it's like, "No, that's directly in the framework of what we're talking about."
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：第一个跳入脑海的词是刺耳的声音，就像是，“不，这直接在我们正在谈论的框架内。”
Jennifer Groh: It is, right, right.
Jennifer Groh：是的，对，对。
Andrew Huberman: I'm like, "Damn it."
安德鲁·休伯曼：我想，“该死。”
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And then I looked at the paneling on the wall, and I thought maybe it's something about...
安德鲁·休伯曼：然后我看着墙上的镶板，我想也许是关于......
Jennifer Groh: And it's like.
Jennifer Groh：就像。
Andrew Huberman: And like, now I could do it.
Andrew Huberman：现在我可以做到了。
Like, I'd say like lacquer or something like that.
就像，我会说像漆或类似的东西。
Jennifer Groh: Right, yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：对，是的。
But again, it's going to be related, right?
但话又说回来，这还是有关联的，对吧？
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, it's really, really tough.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，这真的非常非常困难。
Jennifer Groh: And these are kids that probably have a 30,000-word vocabulary, right?
Jennifer Groh：这些孩子可能拥有 30,000 个单词的词汇量，对吧？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: That's a typical psy vocabulary.
Jennifer Groh：这是典型的心理词汇。
Andrew Huberman: And young brains, so-
安德鲁·休伯曼：还有年轻的大脑，所以-
Jennifer Groh: Young brains.
詹妮弗·格罗：年轻的大脑。
And I had, like, 15 students in the class.
我班上大概有 15 名学生。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Interesting.
安德鲁·休伯曼：有趣。
Jennifer Groh: I think two of them came up with the word elephant, and three of them came up with the word banana.
Jennifer Groh：我认为其中两个人想出了大象这个词，三个人想出了香蕉这个词。
You know, they were clearly not random words.
你知道，它们显然不是随意的词。
Andrew Huberman: So I think we're talking about something extremely important now that I would like your thoughts on.
Andrew Huberman：所以我认为我们现在正在讨论一些非常重要的事情，我想听听您的想法。
Because this is really about how the brain works, right?
因为这实际上是关于大脑如何工作的，对吧？
Jennifer Groh: Okay.
詹妮弗·格罗：好的。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And I love the auditory system, and we'll get back to it, but it's part of this larger question of how our brains work.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我喜欢听觉系统，我们会回到它，但它是我们的大脑如何工作这个更大问题的一部分。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I'm asking about binaural beats or white noise or pink noise or brown noise, in order to enhance focus.
Andrew Huberman：我问的是双耳节拍、白噪声、粉红噪声或棕色噪声，以增强注意力。
There's a lot of interest in that.
人们对此很感兴趣。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: But what we're really talking about is what our thoughts, how we think, and how to anchor our thinking and align it with action.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但我们真正讨论的是我们的想法是什么、我们如何思考以及如何锚定我们的思维并将其与行动结合起来。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: And so I'm obsessed with this notion of attractor states, and the way I think about this, tell me if I have this wrong, is I think about brain states as very context-dependent.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：所以我对吸引子状态的概念很着迷，我思考这个问题的方式，告诉我我是否错了，我认为大脑状态非常依赖于上下文。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Especially nowadays, with the amount of information we're being bombarded with through our phones.
Andrew Huberman：尤其是现在，我们通过手机受到大量信息的轰炸。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And because a walk from the car to your desk, or a walk from the car to your first meeting is a very different experience with a phone than it was, like, 20 years ago.
Andrew Huberman：因为使用手机从汽车步行到办公桌，或者从汽车步行到第一次会议的体验与 20 年前截然不同。
Jennifer Groh: Oh, totally.
詹妮弗·格罗：哦，完全可以。
Andrew Huberman: And people who are younger than me won't know what we're talking about.
Andrew Huberman：比我年轻的人不会知道我们在说什么。
They're going to be like, "What are you talking about?
他们会说，“你在说什么？
You were always in communi..." No, that's not how it was.
你们总是处于交流之中……”不，事实并非如此。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: But the way I think about the brain is that my thinking is more or less like a ball bearing on a flat surface.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但我对大脑的看法是，我的思维或多或少就像平面上的滚珠轴承。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And the more fatigued I am, the more unbalanced that surface is.
Andrew Huberman：我越疲劳，表面就越不平衡。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: But assuming I've slept well, and I'm hydrated, and caffeinated, and satisfied, I don't have some basic need, like having to go to the bathroom, or gnawing hunger, or need for a coffee.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：但是假设我睡得很好，水分充足，含有咖啡因，而且很满足，那么我就没有一些基本需求，比如必须去洗手间，或者忍饥挨饿，或者需要一杯咖啡。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I'm like a ball bearing on a flat surface.
Andrew Huberman：我就像平面上的滚珠轴承。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: And that flat surface is relatively stable.
Andrew Huberman：那个平坦的表面相对稳定。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Now, as I move into something like a discussion on this podcast, or I'm reading something, the dimples start to form on that surface, and so that ball bearing can rest, but you can still nudge it out pretty easily.
Andrew Huberman：现在，当我开始在这个播客上进行讨论时，或者我正在阅读一些内容时，表面上开始形成凹痕，因此滚珠轴承可以休息，但您仍然可以很容易地将其推出。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: But that as I go further and further into an activity, it becomes a trench, and that ball bearing sinks to the bottom of that trench.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但是当我越来越深入地进行一项活动时，它就变成了一条沟渠，而滚珠轴承就会沉入沟渠的底部。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And Christof Koch, who was here recently, said, "The flow state that we all want so badly is where we actually forget about ourselves because we're so deeply in that state of doing." I think he's right, and I think that many people think that they have ADHD.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：克里斯托夫·科赫最近来到这里，他说：“我们都非常想要的心流状态是我们实际上忘记了自己的地方，因为我们深深地处于这种状态中。”我认为他是对的，而且我认为很多人都认为自己患有多动症。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Many people think that they can't concentrate.
Andrew Huberman：很多人认为他们无法集中注意力。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I actually believe there are some people with clinically diagnosable ADHD, but that most people are just not allowing themselves a narrow enough set of sensory inputs and context to drop into that trench, and yet it's the thing that feels so good.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我实际上相信有些人患有临床上可诊断的多动症，但大多数人只是不允许自己有一组足够窄的感官输入和背景落入那个沟渠，但这种感觉是如此美好。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Jennifer Groh: It does.
詹妮弗·格罗：确实如此。
It feels-
感觉——
Andrew Huberman: When we're in it, and when we emerge from it, we're like, "Oh!" Like, that's what we're supposed to do.
Andrew Huberman：当我们身处其中，以及从中走出来时，我们会说，“哦！”就像，这就是我们应该做的。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And so what you described in the classroom, where your students can't even come up with a word unrelated to the conversation, is one of these attractor states.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以你在课堂上所描述的，你的学生甚至无法想出与对话无关的单词，这就是吸引子状态之一。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Is that...
安德鲁·休伯曼：那是……
I mean, where does that sit with you?
我的意思是，你坐在哪里？
Jennifer Groh: Yeah, I think that sounds good to me, and I think I too share an interest in how to get myself into that flow state, and what to do when I have sort of bottomed out in, like, one particular...
詹妮弗·格罗：是的，我认为这对我来说听起来不错，而且我想我也对如何让自己进入那种流动状态感兴趣，以及当我触底时该怎么做，比如，一个特定的......
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: I might be in flow and making good progress on something, and then I get stuck, and I stop.
Jennifer Groh：我可能处于心流状态，在某件事上取得了良好的进展，然后我陷入困境，然后我就停下来了。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: And I find that changing my immediate environment is a good way to get out of that little rut.
詹妮弗·格罗：我发现改变我周围的环境是摆脱这种小习惯的好方法。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: So for example, if I'm working on a difficult piece of writing, I might get to the end of what I can achieve in one particular cafe, but if I go to another cafe, you know?
詹妮弗·格罗：举个例子，如果我正在写一篇困难的文章，我可能会在一家特定的咖啡馆完成我能达到的目标，但如果我去另一家咖啡馆，你知道吗？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Now, this is a very smart strategy.
Andrew Huberman：现在，这是一个非常明智的策略。
Actually, a neuroscientist whose work I really admire, and I also really enjoy as a person, is Marla Feller at UC Berkeley.
事实上，加州大学伯克利分校的玛拉·费勒 (Marla Feller) 是一位神经科学家，我非常钦佩她的工作，而且我个人也非常喜欢她的工作。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And I think she was the one that told me that at scientific conferences, which can go on for two or three days, and sometimes the sessions are very long.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为她是在科学会议上告诉我这一点的人，会议可以持续两到三天，有时会议会很长。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: You have morning, afternoon, evening sessions.
Andrew Huberman：有上午、下午、晚上的课程。
It's a lot.
很多。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: It's a lot.
詹妮弗·格罗：很多。
Andrew Huberman: Lots to pay attention to, a lot of sitting.
Andrew Huberman：需要注意很多事情，需要经常坐着。
She would move seats around the auditorium because she swore that it...
她会在礼堂周围移动座位，因为她发誓……
Jennifer Groh: Uh-huh.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: I do that, too.
詹妮弗·格罗：我也这样做。
Andrew Huberman: I think it was Marla.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为是玛拉。
Marla, if it wasn't you, forgive me.
玛拉，如果不是你，请原谅我。
But I think it was Marla.
但我认为是玛拉。
She would move seats so that she could always anchor her attention for each talk or set of talks.
她会移动座位，以便始终能够集中注意力于每次演讲或一组演讲。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Not necessarily, you know, moving every moment, but every hour or so.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你知道，不一定每时每刻都在移动，但大约每小时都会移动。
I think this is absolutely right.
我认为这是完全正确的。
And so, I wonder whether or not some of these effects of binaural beats or other frequencies improving focus, has to do with just needing to fill the auditory sensory space.
因此，我想知道双耳节拍或其他频率改善注意力的某些效果是否与只需要填充听觉感官空间有关。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: That could be.
詹妮弗·格罗：可能是这样。
Andrew Huberman: Like, if I go...
安德鲁·休伯曼：就像，如果我去……
I work in my basement now.
我现在在地下室工作。
I've set up my basement as, like, the ideal work environment.
我把我的地下室设置成理想的工作环境。
No phones, no internet.
没有电话，没有互联网。
Jennifer Groh: Uh-huh.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Don't allow it.
安德鲁·休伯曼：不允许。
Jennifer Groh: Uh-huh.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: When I go down there, it's just me and my thoughts.
Andrew Huberman：当我去那里时，只有我和我的想法。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
Andrew Huberman: I do allow some music, but when I get down there, the first 10, 15 minutes are excruciating.
Andrew Huberman：我确实允许放一些音乐，但是当我到达那里时，前 10、15 分钟是令人痛苦的。
Like, you can hear every distracting thought.
就像，你可以听到每一个分散注意力的想法。
I can think of a million things that could just pop to mind.
我能想到一百万个可能突然浮现在脑海中的事情。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: But after about 10, 15 minutes, that all fades away, and I can work down there for hours.
Andrew Huberman：但是大约 10、15 分钟后，一切都会消失，我可以在那里工作几个小时。
Like, no one can find me down there.
就像，没人能在下面找到我。
I love it.
我喜欢它。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I've had to create this physical space because nowadays, there's just so much infiltration through devices.
Andrew Huberman：我必须创建这个物理空间，因为如今，通过设备进行的渗透太多了。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: So I wonder, for some people, they think they can't focus, but there's a sensory space that needs filling.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以我想知道，对于某些人来说，他们认为自己无法集中注意力，但有一个感官空间需要填充。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah, they maybe haven't figured out how they need to hack themselves.
Jennifer Groh：是的，他们可能还没有弄清楚如何攻击自己。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: And I think that one reason why I haven't specifically answered your question yet is because I think the answer may be specific to the individual.
Jennifer Groh：我认为我还没有具体回答你的问题的原因之一是因为我认为答案可能因人而异。
So for me, for music, I like to listen to music while I work, but I do it sometimes but not other times.
所以对我来说，对于音乐，我喜欢在工作时听音乐，但有时会听，但其他时候不会。
But as a musician myself, the music can't be too interesting to me.
但作为一名音乐家我自己，音乐对我来说不会太有趣。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Like, it has to be either stuff I know really well already, so that it's not, like, grabbing my attention to actually listen to the song, or it should be classical music or something that doesn't have lyrics, so I don't have that language intrusion to my thoughts.
Jennifer Groh：比如，它必须是我已经非常了解的东西，这样就不会吸引我的注意力去真正听这首歌，或者它应该是古典音乐或没有歌词的东西，这样我的思想就不会受到语言的干扰。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Sometimes I find it useful to make a playlist for a particular project, so that those songs start to become a cue for working on that project.
Jennifer Groh：有时我发现为特定项目制作播放列表很有用，这样这些歌曲就开始成为该项目工作的提示。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: So I don't think there's going to be one answer that fits all circumstances, but to maybe have an understanding of what works for the particular person, the particular project.
Jennifer Groh：所以我认为不会有一个适合所有情况的答案，但也许要了解什么对特定的人、特定的项目有效。
Andrew Huberman: There's some very interesting data coming out of Mark D'Esposito's lab.
Andrew Huberman：Mark D'Esposito 的实验室提供了一些非常有趣的数据。
Jennifer Groh: Okay.
詹妮弗·格罗：好的。
Andrew Huberman: We've had him on the podcast before about dementia and ways to improve working memory, which seems to be more of a dopamine thing.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：我们之前曾在播客上介绍过他关于痴呆症和改善工作记忆的方法，这似乎更多是与多巴胺有关。
Jennifer Groh: Okay.
詹妮弗·格罗：好的。
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: But if you can augment acetylcholine, you can improve attention.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但是如果你能增加乙酰胆碱，你就可以提高注意力。
It's just so clear that these four brain structures, like nucleus basalis, that are releasing acetylcholine, they're necessary but not sufficient to establish an attentional spotlight.
很明显，这四种大脑结构，如基底核，会释放乙酰胆碱，它们对于建立注意力焦点是必要的，但还不够。
Andrew Huberman: The reason I was going to mention this context is, the cortex is rich with the nerve endings of these acetylcholine-releasing neurons.
Andrew Huberman：我之所以要提到这种情况，是因为皮质中富含这些释放乙酰胆碱的神经元的神经末梢。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: The colliculus has acetylcholine input, and it seems like any multisensory area of the brain, where you need to integrate vision and sound and context and thinking and all this stuff and intention and action, you have norepinephrine to raise overall alertness in the brain and body.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：丘有乙酰胆碱输入，它看起来像大脑的任何多感觉区域，在那里你需要整合视觉、声音、背景、思维以及所有这些东西、意图和行动，你有去甲肾上腺素来提高大脑和身体的整体警觉性。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: That seems to be its general function.
Andrew Huberman：这似乎是它的一般功能。
Dopamine does many different things in different areas, as you know, but it seems like acetylcholine is the thing that really creates this ability for attentional spotlighting, that being able to anchor one's thoughts and actions towards a specific set of sensory combinations.
正如你所知，多巴胺在不同的领域有许多不同的作用，但乙酰胆碱似乎真正创造了这种注意力集中的能力，能够将一个人的思想和行动锚定到一组特定的感官组合。
Andrew Huberman: And so when we talk about listening to music, or not listening to music, or one particular space or another space that one works in, I think so much of it is trying to...
安德鲁·胡伯曼：所以当我们谈论听音乐，或不听音乐，或一个人工作的一个特定空间或另一个空间时，我认为其中很大一部分是试图......
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: You know, we're trying to create these spheres of attention that are very compact.
Andrew Huberman：你知道，我们正在尝试创建这些非常紧凑的注意力范围。
And I don't think that people really appreciate just how hard that problem becomes when you take a device, I'm not anti-phones, and you're bringing in another sphere of, what, 25,000 different spheres of attention that you can scroll through?
我不认为人们真正意识到当你拿起一个设备时这个问题会变得多么困难，我不是反电话者，你带来了另一个领域，什么，25,000 个不同的注意力领域，你可以滚动浏览？
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: It makes perfect sense why we wouldn't be able to focus.
Andrew Huberman：我们无法集中注意力的原因是完全有道理的。
Because acetylcholine is like a resource that we spend out, and it can be replenished in sleep.
因为乙酰胆碱就像是一种我们消耗掉的资源，而它可以在睡眠中得到补充。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: You said you'll hit a flow state or a focus state, and then we have to switch, yeah, or you hit a wall.
Andrew Huberman：你说过你会进入心流状态或专注状态，然后我们必须切换，是的，否则你就会碰壁。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I feel like it's a currency.
Andrew Huberman：我觉得它是一种货币。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: It's not something that we should be able to just use, you know, infinitum.
Andrew Huberman：这不是我们应该能够无限使用的东西。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: So, I think a theme of some of your podcast episodes involves, you know, physical exercise and workouts, and what's the best routine for this, that, or the other aspect of the workout.
詹妮弗·格罗：所以，我认为你的一些播客节目的主题涉及身体锻炼和锻炼，以及这个、那个或锻炼的其他方面的最佳例程是什么。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: And generally, interval training, I think, comes up as a pretty effective strategy.
Jennifer Groh：我认为，总的来说，间歇训练是一种非常有效的策略。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯，嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: I sometimes think about that in the context of more mental work, because I have not had good luck screening out all the distractions to get going on deep writing.
詹妮弗·格罗：我有时会在更多脑力工作的背景下思考这个问题，因为我没有运气好排除所有干扰因素来进行深度写作。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: For me, it's more like I can push out a sentence, and that's so effortful that then I need to take a break.
Jennifer Groh：对我来说，这更像是我可以说出一句话，这太费力了，所以我需要休息一下。
Andrew Huberman: Oh, well, I feel much better now because...
安德鲁·休伯曼：哦，好吧，我现在感觉好多了，因为......
Well, I think this is where you're going.
嗯，我想这就是你要去的地方。
You may find comfort in the fact that we've had some just phenomenal physical coaches on here.
您可能会感到安慰，因为我们这里有一些非常出色的体能教练。
I mean, people who are degreed in physiology, and teach super high-level athletes.
我的意思是，那些拥有生理学学位并教授超高水平运动员的人。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And more than one of them has said that the attention span of the athlete, in terms of ability to focus on cognitive information, tutorial, and learning, even conversation, directly maps onto the duration of their event.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：他们中不止一位说过，运动员的注意力广度，即专注于认知信息、辅导和学习，甚至对话的能力，直接映射到他们的赛事持续时间。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Like, the sprinters can pay attention for about the duration of their sprint.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：就像，短跑运动员可以关注他们冲刺的持续时间。
Jennifer Groh: About 10 seconds?
Jennifer Groh：大约 10 秒？
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Well, for the 100-meter, right?
嗯，100米，对吧？
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: But they can repeat that because the sprinter will sprint, and then walk, and then repeat, right?
安德鲁·胡伯曼：但是他们可以重复这个，因为短跑运动员会冲刺，然后步行，然后重复，对吧？
Jennifer Groh: Uh-huh.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Jennifer Groh: And then sprint again.
Jennifer Groh：然后再次冲刺。
Jennifer Groh: Exactly.
詹妮弗·格罗：没错。
Andrew Huberman: So it's a training.
Andrew Huberman：所以这是一次培训。
Jennifer Groh: So it's like I'll write a sentence, then I'll check one news site, then I'll write another sentence, and I'll check another news site.
Jennifer Groh：就像我会写一个句子，然后我会检查一个新闻网站，然后我会写另一个句子，然后我会检查另一个新闻网站。
Andrew Huberman: Love it.
安德鲁·休伯曼：喜欢。
Jennifer Groh: And if I try to just write one sentence and then another sentence, and then another sentence, I get frustrated with myself.
Jennifer Groh：如果我尝试只写一个句子，然后写另一个句子，然后再写另一个句子，我会对自己感到沮丧。
It seems like it's...
看起来好像是...
I don't know.
我不知道。
I can't necessarily do it.
我不一定能做到。
Sometimes I can, but I've let go of working efficiently as a goal in and of itself.
有时我可以，但我已经放弃了将高效工作本身作为目标。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Was it always the case, or do you think the advent of phones has made it such that you have this sort of step function?
Andrew Huberman：情况总是如此，还是您认为手机的出现使您拥有了这种步进功能？
Jennifer Groh: No, I've always had a problem with the internet.
Jennifer Groh：不，我一直对互联网有疑问。
The phone is just the way in.
电话只是入口。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Jennifer Groh: But the phone actually can be helpful to me, because I can close all the tabs on my laptop, and just have my phone be the way that I access the internet, for example.
Jennifer Groh：但是手机实际上对我很有帮助，因为我可以关闭笔记本电脑上的所有选项卡，然后让手机成为我访问互联网的方式。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: And that allows for a kind of a mental and physical separation, where I can kind of be like, "Okay, now I'm doing this.
詹妮弗·格罗：这允许一种精神和身体上的分离，我可以说，“好吧，现在我正在这样做。
Okay, now I'm doing that," and keep them kind of separated.
好吧，现在我就这么做了，”并将它们分开。
Andrew Huberman: I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, LMNT.
Andrew Huberman：我想稍微休息一下，并向我们的赞助商之一 LMNT 表示感谢。
LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.
LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。
That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar.
这意味着电解质、钠、镁和钾的比例都正确，但不含糖。
Proper hydration is critical for brain and body function.
适当的水合作用对于大脑和身体功能至关重要。
Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish your cognitive and physical performance.
即使是轻微程度的脱水也会降低您的认知和身体表现。
It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes.
获得充足的电解质也很重要。
Andrew Huberman: The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are vital for the functioning of all cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells.
Andrew Huberman：电解质、钠、镁和钾对于体内所有细胞的功能至关重要，尤其是神经元或神经细胞。
Drinking LMNT makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes.
饮用 LMNT 可以轻松确保您获得足够的水分和电解质。
My days tend to start really fast, meaning I have to jump right into work or right into exercise.
我的日子往往开始得很快，这意味着我必须立即投入工作或立即锻炼。
So, to make sure that I'm hydrated and I have sufficient electrolytes, when I first wake up in the morning, I drink 16 to 32 ounces of water with an LMNT packet dissolved in it.
因此，为了确保我有足够的水分和足够的电解质，当我早上第一次醒来时，我会喝 16 至 32 盎司的水，其中溶解有 LMNT 包。
Andrew Huberman: I also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot, and losing water and electrolytes.
Andrew Huberman：在进行任何体育锻炼时，我也会饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT，尤其是在炎热的日子里，当我大量出汗并失去水和电解质时。
LMNT has a bunch of great-tasting flavors.
LMNT 有很多美味的口味。
In fact, I love them all.
事实上，我爱他们所有人。
I love the watermelon, the raspberry, the citrus, and I really love the lemonade flavor.
我喜欢西瓜、覆盆子、柑橘，而且我真的很喜欢柠檬水的味道。
So if you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with any purchase.
因此，如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman，购买任意商品即可领取免费的 LMNT 样品包。
Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.
再次强调，请访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman 索取免费样品包。
Andrew Huberman: I love that you're sharing this.
Andrew Huberman：我喜欢你分享这个。
Many people will find comfort in hearing that.
很多人听到这个消息都会感到安慰。
You know, my podcast producer, Rob Moore, he's done multiple triathlons, and he's an endurance guy.
你知道，我的播客制作人罗布·摩尔（Rob Moore），他参加过多次铁人三项比赛，而且他是一个耐力型运动员。
At one point in his past, he had carried a lot more muscle.
在他过去的某个时刻，他的肌肉要多得多。
He's still very fit and strong, but he shifted over to endurance events.
他仍然非常健康和强壮，但他转向了耐力项目。
And this guy can work like nobody's business.
这个家伙可以像别人一样工作。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: He can work for hours and hours and hours and hours.
安德鲁·休伯曼：他可以工作几个小时。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And I feel like that's how I was in graduate school and as a postdoc.
Andrew Huberman：我觉得这就是我在研究生院和博士后的经历。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And I suppose I'm more of an endurance athlete with my mental work.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我想我更像是一名耐力运动员，需要脑力劳动。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I think maybe we should start thinking about cognition in these terms.
Andrew Huberman：我认为也许我们应该开始从这些角度思考认知。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Because after all, we're not just two people talking about work habits.
Andrew Huberman：因为毕竟，我们不仅仅是两个人谈论工作习惯。
You're a neuroscientist, and you study sensory integration and brain states, and I still consider myself a neuroscientist even though I haven't gotten my hands dirty in the lab in a while.
你是一名神经科学家，你研究感觉统合和大脑状态，而我仍然认为自己是一名神经科学家，尽管我已经有一段时间没有在实验室里动手了。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I think this is very important because I think people flagellate themselves over the fact that they couldn't pay attention to write one paragraph.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为这非常重要，因为我认为人们会因为无法集中注意力写一段话而自我鞭挞。
And they think that therefore that means they shouldn't write or that they can't write more than one paragraph, but it sounds like they need to create a system.
他们认为这意味着他们不应该写，或者他们不能写超过一个段落，但听起来他们需要创建一个系统。
Jennifer Groh: I come out of the little mini internet break knowing what the next sentence needs to say.
詹妮弗·格罗（Jennifer Groh）：我在短暂的网络休息后就知道下一句话要说什么。
Andrew Huberman: Interesting.
安德鲁·休伯曼：有趣。
So, you're really like an interval athlete when it comes to mental work.
所以，在脑力劳动方面，你真的很像一名间歇运动员。
Jennifer Groh: With the hard stuff.
Jennifer Groh：有困难的事情。
With the easy stuff, I can just, you know, do it, right?
有了简单的事情，我就可以做到，你知道，对吧？
Andrew Huberman: Very interesting.
安德鲁·休伯曼：非常有趣。
Jennifer Groh: But it's this sense of effortful cognition that takes its own time, and it just takes its time.
詹妮弗·格罗：但正是这种努力认知的感觉需要时间，而且只是需要时间。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: And I don't control that.
Jennifer Groh：我无法控制这一点。
I do try to set myself up to allow the mental work to happen when I'm in the shower or in the car or whatever.
我确实尝试让自己在洗澡、车里或其他什么时候进行脑力工作。
So, for example, if I'm going to work on a grant application with somebody, and we're sharing, you know, the writing, and I know I can't start until I've had a conversation with the collaborator about who's doing what, and what we think this grant is going to be about, I might set up that meeting when there's going to be downtime afterwards.
因此，举例来说，如果我要与某人一起处理拨款申请，并且我们正在共享写作，并且我知道在我与合作者就谁在做什么以及我们认为这笔拨款将涉及什么进行对话之前我无法开始，我可能会在之后有停机时间时安排该会议。
Jennifer Groh: I did this just yesterday, where I had a meeting yesterday morning, knowing that then I was going to be on an airplane for quite a while, knowing that without my having to do anything about it, the ideas are going to marinate.
詹妮弗·格罗：我昨天就这么做了，昨天早上我开了一个会议，知道然后我要在飞机上待很长一段时间，知道不需要我做任何事情，这些想法就会被腌制。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Stuff is going to be happening that I'm not aware of, and that when I come out of that, I'll probably know what I want at least the first couple of sentences to say.
Jennifer Groh：我不知道的事情将会发生，当我走出困境时，我可能会知道我想要说什么，至少在前几句话中。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, you trust the sort of process of brain state shifting back and forth.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，你相信大脑状态来回变化的过程。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: You don't fight it.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你不反抗。
You trust it.
你相信它。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah, I have to.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的，我必须这么做。
I mean, I don't see any other way to do it.
我的意思是，我看不到任何其他方法可以做到这一点。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: But I think it's a little like, you know, you need rest and recovery for physical exercise, and honestly, it's not like the brain and muscles are all that different from each other, right?
詹妮弗·格罗：但我认为这有点像，你知道，你需要休息和恢复才能进行体育锻炼，老实说，大脑和肌肉并没有那么不同，对吧？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Well, I always think of all nerve action as motor, and we could talk about that.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯，我一直认为所有神经活动都是运动，我们可以讨论这一点。
I mean, Sherrington said, right?
我的意思是，谢林顿说，对吗？
The final common path.
最终的共同路径。
The Nobel Prize winner, Sherrington.
诺贝尔奖获得者谢林顿。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: The final common path is movement.
Andrew Huberman：最后的共同路径是运动。
I mean, that's what we evolved to do first, and thinking is a form of movement.
我的意思是，这就是我们进化首先要做的事情，而思考是一种运动形式。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: It is hard for people to grasp sometimes.
Andrew Huberman：有时人们很难理解。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: And people perhaps can grasp it more easily in the context of song.
Andrew Huberman：人们也许可以在歌曲的背景下更容易地理解它。
Certain songs sound like they're moving forward.
有些歌曲听起来像是在向前迈进。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Like, it feels like a physical progression.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：就像，感觉就像是身体上的进步。
They make you want to move.
它们让你想要搬家。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Right?
安德鲁·休伯曼：对吗？
They actually inspire movement.
它们实际上激发了运动。
Actually, there are very few sounds that inspire stillness.
事实上，很少有声音能让人安静下来。
They tend to be the slow, oscillatory sounds, ocean waves, things that don't have a structure.
它们往往是缓慢的、振荡的声音、海浪、没有结构的东西。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: They're very fractal, to the point where you don't see that fractal structure.
Andrew Huberman：它们非常分形，以至于你看不到分形结构。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: It just kind of breaks up, and then your mind just goes into drift.
安德鲁·休伯曼：它只是有点破裂，然后你的思想就开始漂移。
The only other person I've ever met who has described embracing their mental process the same way that you have is my good friend in the...
我见过的唯一一个像你一样拥抱自己的心理过程的人是我在...的好朋友。
You know, he's this world-renowned producer, Rick Rubin.
要知道，他就是这位世界知名的制作人，Rick Rubin。
He just trusts that there are certain times of day when things are going to come to him, that certain things aren't ready, and they just need to marinate in sleep or in dreams.
他只是相信一天中的某些时候事情会降临到他身上，某些事情还没有准备好，它们只需要浸泡在睡眠或梦中。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And he doesn't even really try and assign it to sleep and dreams.
安德鲁·休伯曼：他甚至没有真正尝试将其分配给睡眠和梦。
Jennifer Groh: Yep.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: He just understands the process.
Andrew Huberman：他只是了解这个过程。
It eventually is going to emerge.
它最终会出现。
He's not like, "Why can't I get this thing out?" And so, he's very much in flow with his own, you know, peaks and valleys and attention.
他不会说“为什么我不能把这个东西拿出来？”所以，他非常适应自己的高峰、低谷和注意力。
Jennifer Groh: Being blocked can mean you don't know yet what needs to come next.
Jennifer Groh：被阻止可能意味着您还不知道接下来需要做什么。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Yeah, so important for people to hear because I think most everyone is trying to drop into that deep trench attractor state as quickly as possible.
是的，这对人们来说非常重要，因为我认为大多数人都在试图尽快进入深沟吸引子状态。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: And yet, there are ways that we can do that, and maybe we can talk about that for a few moments.
Andrew Huberman：然而，我们可以通过一些方法来做到这一点，也许我们可以讨论一会儿。
I'd be remiss if I didn't ask about your experience as a musician.
如果我不询问你作为音乐家的经历，那就是我的失职。
What instrument do you play?
你演奏什么乐器？
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Well, I started off with flute, you know, starting in fifth grade.
Jennifer Groh：嗯，我从五年级开始学长笛。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Now, I play the banjo, and I sing.
Jennifer Groh：现在，我弹班卓琴，我唱歌。
Andrew Huberman: Nice.
安德鲁·休伯曼：很好。
When you're doing that, do you find that your attention is anchored for the duration of the performance or practice?
当你这样做时，你是否发现你的注意力集中在表演或练习的过程中？
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Yes, especially when performing.
Jennifer Groh：是的，尤其是在表演时。
There's a certain...
有一定...
Like, I feel that the singing, in particular, can come out better in performance than it does in practice.
比如，我觉得尤其是唱歌，在表演中比在实践中表现得更好。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Not always, unfortunately.
Jennifer Groh：不幸的是，并非总是如此。
The more technically challenging playing of the banjo is a little hard.
班卓琴的演奏技术上更具挑战性，有点难。
You know, the adrenaline helps with the singing and hurts with the banjo, let's put it that way.
你知道，肾上腺素对唱歌有帮助，对班卓琴有伤害，这么说吧。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Interesting.
安德鲁·休伯曼：有趣。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Because adrenaline...
安德鲁·休伯曼：因为肾上腺素......
What, it's like this inverted U-shaped thing?
什么，就像这个倒U形的东西？
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Like, at very low levels, we can't focus, at higher levels, we can focus, and if it gets too high, we're discombobulated.
Andrew Huberman：就像，在非常低的水平上，我们无法集中注意力，在较高的水平上，我们可以集中注意力，如果水平太高，我们就会感到混乱。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Jennifer Groh: I mean, it's just the shaking of the fingers that can be problematic.
Jennifer Groh：我的意思是，手指的颤抖可能会带来问题。
Andrew Huberman: Mm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Jennifer Groh: But the other problem is, you know, from an attention music performance standpoint, I would much prefer to sing a given song only once in a rehearsal than to go over it more than once, because I can't remember the words the second time through.
詹妮弗·格罗：但另一个问题是，你知道，从注意力音乐表演的角度来看，我更愿意在排练中只唱一首给定的歌曲，而不是多次演唱，因为我第二次就记不住歌词了。
Andrew Huberman: Interesting.
安德鲁·休伯曼：有趣。
Jennifer Groh: And I think it's this mental checklist of, "Did I already sing that?
詹妮弗·格罗：我认为这是一个心理清单，“我已经唱过那首歌了吗？
I remember singing that.
我记得唱过这首歌
But no, wait a second, but now I have to sing it again?" You know, and just kind of keeping track of where I'm at gets harder the second time through.
但不，等一下，但现在我必须再唱一次？”你知道，在第二次的时候，要记住我现在的处境就变得更加困难了。
Andrew Huberman: Pressure is an interesting thing to explore in this context of brain states, because it sounds like you've embraced this kind of oscillatory flow of your attention.
Andrew Huberman：在大脑状态的背景下探索压力是一件有趣的事情，因为听起来你已经接受了这种注意力的振荡流。
Like, in one context, it works this way, and you're not pressuring yourself to do something.
就像，在某种情况下，它是这样运作的，你不会强迫自己做某事。
There was a really interesting paper recently about the neural basis of choking.
最近有一篇关于窒息的神经基础的非常有趣的论文。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And not physically choking, but when something really critical is on the line, what happens?
Andrew Huberman：并不是身体上的窒息，但是当真正关键的事情发生时，会发生什么？
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Did you see that paper?
安德鲁·休伯曼：你看到那篇论文了吗？
I thought it was...
我以为那是...
Jennifer Groh: I have not, but like...
Jennifer Groh：我没有，但喜欢......
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: It's really cool.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这真的很酷。
They record from motor cortex and a bunch of other areas, but the basic finding is that, if there's the potential for a low payoff if you get something right...
他们从运动皮层和许多其他区域进行记录，但基本发现是，如果你做对了事情，可能会获得低回报……
Jennifer Groh: Uh-huh.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Well, let's just say it's like throwing darts, which the analogous experiment would be like throwing darts.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好吧，我们就说这就像扔飞镖一样，类似的实验就像扔飞镖一样。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: You say, well, let's say if you get on the dartboard, you get a dollar.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你说，好吧，假设你上了飞镖，你就会得到一美元。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: If you get within a certain distance of the bullseye, you get, I don't know, 1,000 dollars.
Andrew Huberman：如果你到达靶心一定距离内，我不知道你会得到 1,000 美元。
Pretty good.
不错。
If you bullseye, you get 10 million dollars.
如果你看中了靶心，你将获得 1000 万美元。
What ends up happening is that the performance on the high-stakes condition is always worse, but just in terms of just even the basic mechanics.
最终发生的情况是，高风险条件下的表现总是更差，但只是就基本机制而言。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And so choking turns out to be a recruitment of too many motor units.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：所以窒息原来是因为招募了太多的运动单位。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: You basically overinvest motor effort as opposed to staying chill and staying in the zone.
Andrew Huberman：基本上，你过度投入了运动精力，而不是保持冷静并保持专注。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Try too hard.
太努力了。
Andrew Huberman: Where, you still might not bullseye.
Andrew Huberman：在哪里，你可能仍然没有瞄准目标。
This wasn't the exact experiment, but again, it's analogous to what they really did.
这不是确切的实验，但它再次类似于他们真正所做的。
But you stand a much greater chance if you stay within your ability...
但如果你在自己的能力范围内，你的机会就会更大......
You already know how to do this thing.
你已经知道如何做这件事了。
And subjects choke when the stakes go way up because they just overinvest too much motor activity.
当风险大幅增加时，受试者会感到窒息，因为他们过度投入了太多的运动活动。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Perfectionism.
詹妮弗·格罗：完美主义。
Andrew Huberman: Yep.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Jennifer Groh: It's a trap.
詹妮弗·格罗：这是一个陷阱。
Andrew Huberman: You have to almost mentally convince yourself that the stakes are lower, but you can't really lie to yourself.
Andrew Huberman：你几乎必须在精神上说服自己，赌注较低，但你不能真正对自己撒谎。
Anyway, it's pretty interesting.
无论如何，这很有趣。
It's pretty interesting.
这很有趣。
I love that we're talking about brain states and sensory inputs.
我喜欢我们谈论大脑状态和感官输入。
In this case, it's knowledge about potential outcomes.
在这种情况下，它是关于潜在结果的知识。
I want to talk about chickens.
我想谈谈鸡。
Jennifer Groh: Yes.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: You have chickens.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你有鸡。
Jennifer Groh: I do.
詹妮弗·格罗：我愿意。
Andrew Huberman: And so, first, I'll ask you about chickens and what you find so interesting about them, and then I want your thoughts about a really wild, wild finding about chickens and vision and attention, that anyone who's ever raised chickens on a farm probably knows, but only a couple of neuroscientists know.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，首先，我会问你关于鸡的问题，以及你对它们有何兴趣，然后我想听听你对关于鸡、视觉和注意力的一个非常疯狂的发现的看法，任何在农场养过鸡的人可能都知道，但只有少数神经科学家知道。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Okay.
詹妮弗·格罗：好的。
Andrew Huberman: You'll probably know it, but anyway.
Andrew Huberman：你可能会知道，但无论如何。
What kind of chickens do you have?
你们养的是什么品种的鸡？
Jennifer Groh: I have Bantam Mille Fleurs.
Jennifer Groh：我有 Bantam Mille Fleurs。
Andrew Huberman: So, Bantam means little guys?
Andrew Huberman：那么，Bantam 的意思是小家伙？
Jennifer Groh: They're little guys.
Jennifer Groh：他们都是小家伙。
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Mille Fleurs.
安德鲁·休伯曼：Mille Fleurs。
Jennifer Groh: Mille Fleur.
詹妮弗·格罗：Mille Fleur。
It's...
这是...
Andrew Huberman: How big are the eggs?
安德鲁·休伯曼：鸡蛋有多大？
Jennifer Groh: They're half the size of a standard grade A large egg from the supermarket.
Jennifer Groh：它们的大小只有超市里标准 A 级大鸡蛋的一半。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Are they tasty?
安德鲁·休伯曼：它们好吃吗？
Jennifer Groh: Very tasty.
詹妮弗·格罗：非常好吃。
Andrew Huberman: Okay, how many does it take to make a decent-sized omelet?
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的，制作一个大小合适的煎蛋卷需要多少个？
Jennifer Groh: Well, double the number that you would normally put in, and that would be-
Jennifer Groh：嗯，将你通常输入的数字加倍，那就是——
Andrew Huberman: Okay, so for me, it would be, like, eight.
Andrew Huberman：好的，对我来说，大概是八个。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
So, when did you start raising chickens?
那么，您是什么时候开始养鸡的呢？
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: So, I had Bantams when I was a kid.
Jennifer Groh：所以，我小时候就吃过 Bantams。
I live in Chapel Hill, and around 2012 or so, maybe 2011, the town changed its zoning laws to allow chickens in the kind of neighborhood that I live in.
我住在教堂山，大约在 2012 年左右，也许是 2011 年，该镇更改了分区法，允许在我居住的社区养鸡。
So I'm like, "Okay, this is what we're going to do."
所以我想，“好吧，这就是我们要做的。”
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: My husband's allergic to dogs and cats and anything with fur, so, you know, chickens were kind of the option.
詹妮弗·格罗：我丈夫对狗、猫和任何有毛皮的东西过敏，所以，你知道，鸡是一种选择。
I suppose we could have gotten rabbits and kept them outside.
我想我们可以养兔子并将它们放在外面。
Andrew Huberman: Or a hairless cat.
安德鲁·休伯曼：或者是一只无毛猫。
Jennifer Groh: You know, I won't say that we didn't have that discussion but it didn't go anywhere.
詹妮弗·格罗：你知道，我不会说我们没有进行过这样的讨论，但它没有取得任何进展。
Andrew Huberman: Sorry.
安德鲁·休伯曼：抱歉。
Andrew Huberman: They're pretty funny.
安德鲁·休伯曼：它们非常有趣。
Jennifer Groh: You know, you're committing...
Jennifer Groh：你知道，你正在承诺......
Andrew Huberman: I got a friend with one.
Andrew Huberman：我有一个朋友有一个。
They're sweet.
他们很甜蜜。
They're like little monkeys.
他们就像小猴子一样。
They're always crawling up people.
它们总是往人身上爬。
Yeah.
是的。
Jennifer Groh: Well, they really...
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯，他们真的......
I have met a hairless cat, and I do think that they have lovely personalities, you know, extrapolating from this N of one.
我遇到过一只无毛猫，我确实认为它们有可爱的个性，你知道，从这 N 个猫中推断出来。
You know, because they don't look so great, so they can't get by on their looks.
你知道，因为他们长得不怎么样，所以他们靠外表过不去。
Andrew Huberman: Oh, my goodness.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哦，天哪。
This is funny.
这很有趣。
Jennifer Groh: Oh, dear.
詹妮弗·格罗：哦，亲爱的。
Andrew Huberman: No, no, no, no. I totally buy it.
安德鲁·休伯曼：不，不，不，不。我完全相信。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Jennifer Groh: So they're a very pleasant personality, I think.
Jennifer Groh：所以我认为他们的性格非常令人愉快。
And the warmth of them, because you really feel the warmth of their skin.
还有他们的温暖，因为你真切地感受到他们皮肤的温暖。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: But anyway, so chickens it was, and is, and I like the Bantams because they really have a lot of personality.
詹妮弗·格罗：但无论如何，鸡过去是，现在也是，我喜欢矮脚鸡，因为它们真的很有个性。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: You know, they haven't been bred to be egg layers.
Jennifer Groh：你知道，它们并不是被培育成产蛋的。
They've been bred to be pets.
它们是被当作宠物饲养的。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: And so, they have a certain pleasing personality and interest in interacting with people that I think might be different from standard kind of farm chickens.
詹妮弗·格罗：所以，他们有一种令人愉悦的性格和与人互动的兴趣，我认为这可能与标准的农场鸡不同。
Andrew Huberman: Well, I have a non-invasive experiment for you to try.
Andrew Huberman：嗯，我有一个非侵入性实验供你尝试。
Jennifer Groh: Okay.
詹妮弗·格罗：好的。
Andrew Huberman: Some years ago, I got very interested in the relationship between vision and brain states.
Andrew Huberman：几年前，我对视觉和大脑状态之间的关系非常感兴趣。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And there's some interesting literature about the fact that when we view horizons, especially from a vista, that it relaxes our autonomic nervous system.
安德鲁·休伯曼：有一些有趣的文献表明，当我们观看地平线时，尤其是从远景来看，它会放松我们的自主神经系统。
We go into a more parasympathetic mode.
我们进入一种更加副交感神经的模式。
Jennifer Groh: Okay.
詹妮弗·格罗：好的。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And it turns out when we view horizons, our eyes naturally go into panoramic vision.
安德鲁·休伯曼：事实证明，当我们观看地平线时，我们的眼睛自然会进入全景视野。
We're not foveating to one...
我们不是专注于一个人...
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: That's nerd speak, by the way.
Andrew Huberman：顺便说一句，这是书呆子的说法。
Neuroscience nerd speak.
神经科学书呆子讲话。
We're not focusing on one particular point.
我们不关注某一特定点。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: If you track one particular point, you obviously do a smooth pursuit of that point with your eyes.
Andrew Huberman：如果你追踪一个特定的点，你显然会用眼睛平滑地追踪该点。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: But then you just go to a vista, you look at a horizon, your eyes naturally just dilate as we say, right?
安德鲁·休伯曼：但是当你看到远景时，你看着地平线，你的眼睛自然会像我们所说的那样放大，对吗？
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: But it's panoramic vision.
Andrew Huberman：但这是全景视野。
Whereas when we do a vergence eye movement, bring our eyes together at a particular point, there's this really interesting increase in the output of areas like locus coeruleus that are involved in attention, norepinephrine.
然而，当我们进行眼球聚散运动时，将我们的眼睛集中在一个特定的点上，像蓝斑这样与注意力、去甲肾上腺素有关的区域的输出会出现非常有趣的增加。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I thought, "This is really wild."
安德鲁·休伯曼：我想，“这真的很疯狂。”
Andrew Huberman: And I was interested in respiration and brain states, and I was like, "Oh, cool, like, maybe we're just staring into little boxes too much, and that's why we feel so attentionally exhausted and depleted."
安德鲁·休伯曼：我对呼吸和大脑状态感兴趣，我想，“哦，酷，就像，也许我们只是盯着小盒子看太多了，这就是为什么我们感到注意力如此疲惫和耗尽。”
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Makes sense.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：有道理。
Attention's a resource.
注意力是一种资源。
Okay, I think there's some evidence now to support every one of those statements, although we need more brain recordings from humans to really get to the nitty-gritty.
好吧，我认为现在有一些证据支持这些陈述中的每一项，尽管我们需要更多人类的大脑记录才能真正了解事实真相。
Andrew Huberman: But then my graduate advisor, who unfortunately has passed away, had told me some time ago, she said, "You know, you can hypnotize chickens." And I said, "Really?" Because that's a lyric in an Iggy Pop song, "I'm hypnotizing chickens," and I thought, "Wait, what?" And she said, "Yeah, you can hypnotize chickens, but they're not really hypnotized.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：但是我的研究生导师不幸去世了，她前段时间告诉我，她说：“你知道，你可以催眠鸡。”我说：“真的吗？”因为这是伊基流行歌曲中的歌词，“我正在催眠鸡，”我想，“等等，什么？”她说：“是的，你可以催眠鸡，但它们并没有真正被催眠。
They're just hyper-focused."
他们只是高度专注。”
Andrew Huberman: And I was like, "Isn't that what hypnosis is?" And she's like, "Yeah, I guess.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我当时想，“这不是催眠吗？”她说：“是的，我想。
I always thought hypnosis was like a dream." Hypnosis is a state of hyper-focus.
我一直认为催眠就像一场梦。”催眠是一种高度专注的状态。
I have a colleague who does clinical hypnosis, David Spiegel.
我有一位从事临床催眠工作的同事，大卫·斯皮格尔。
It's approved by the American Psychiatric Association.
它得到了美国精神病学协会的批准。
Hyper-focus.
超专注。
Here's what you do, and you can find this.
这就是你要做的，你可以找到这个。
People who grew up on farms do this.
在农场长大的人都会这样做。
And there are videos of this on YouTube.
YouTube 上有这方面的视频。
Andrew Huberman: They take a chicken, and they'll hold the chicken, and they'll draw a line in the dirt, and they'll place the chicken's beak on the line, and the chicken will just stay there for many, many, many minutes.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：他们会抓起一只鸡，然后在泥土中画一条线，然后将鸡的喙放在线上，然后鸡会在那里停留很多很多很多分钟。
You actually have to pick them up and kind of get them to orient to the rest of their visual field.
实际上，你必须把它们捡起来，让它们适应视野的其余部分。
Turns out that any birds that eat off the ground have a very complex, like, sensory motor challenge that my colleague, the late...
事实证明，任何在地面上进食的鸟类都会面临非常复杂的感觉运动挑战，我的同事，已故的......
Jennifer Groh: Uh-huh.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: He died of old age.
安德鲁·休伯曼：他因年老而去世。
So, Harvey Karten told me about, which is, you know, they got this tiny beak, and a seed is small, and they...
所以，哈维·卡滕告诉我，你知道，他们有这个小喙，种子很小，他们......
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: You know, you and I could pick up things off a table pretty quickly.
Andrew Huberman：你知道，你和我可以很快地从桌子上拿起东西。
Jennifer Groh: Uh-huh.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: But they're doing this with this tiny beak, but their eyes are on the side of their head.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：但他们用这个小喙来做这件事，但他们的眼睛长在头的一侧。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: So in order to do that, as their head descends really fast, in order to not smash their beak into the surface, and make an accurate pickup of the seed or whatever it is, or bug, their eyes undergo a vergence eye movement.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：因此，为了做到这一点，当它们的头下降得非常快时，为了不将它们的喙撞到表面，并准确地拾取种子或任何东西，或者虫子，它们的眼睛会进行辐散眼球运动。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: They shift their eyes inward and they get a little cone of attention.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：他们将目光转向内部，并得到了一点关注。
Jennifer Groh: Uh-huh.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: A little cone of attention.
Jennifer Groh：一点点关注。
Andrew Huberman: So when you draw a line and you focus them down, they're literally stuck in that cone of attention.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以当你画一条线并将他们的注意力集中在他们身上时，他们实际上就被困在了那个注意力锥中。
Jennifer Groh: Staring at that...
詹妮弗·格罗：盯着那个……
Andrew Huberman: And then, I started looking at the literature on behavioral treatments for ADHD, or just for attention, and not in this country, but in China, many schoolroom classrooms begin before the lesson with the kids literally focusing on a single spot.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：然后，我开始研究有关多动症行为治疗的文献，或者只是为了引起注意，不是在这个国家，而是在中国，许多教室在上课前开始，孩子们实际上专注于一个地方。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Which seems a little bit, like, kind of military.
Andrew Huberman：这看起来有点像军事。
But they have embraced this relationship between visual attention and overall kind of ability to cognitively focus.
但他们已经接受了视觉注意力和整体认知聚焦能力之间的关系。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And chickens do it, kids in China are doing it, and it actually has been shown to work pretty well for improving attention in the subsequent, you know, 40 minutes to an hour.
Andrew Huberman：鸡会这样做，中国的孩子也在这样做，事实证明，它对于在接下来的 40 分钟到一个小时内提高注意力非常有效。
Jennifer Groh: That's really interesting.
詹妮弗·格罗：这真的很有趣。
Andrew Huberman: So, our attention tends to follow our vision, not necessarily the other way around.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，我们的注意力往往会跟随我们的愿景，而不一定相反。
Jennifer Groh: So, I've seen some of these chicken YouTube videos, but I haven't dug into it yet to try it with my own chickens, but now you're motivating me to try it.
Jennifer Groh：所以，我看过一些有关鸡的 YouTube 视频，但我还没有深入研究，用我自己的鸡尝试一下，但现在你激励我尝试一下。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, let me know what you find.
Andrew Huberman：是的，让我知道你发现了什么。
Jennifer Groh: As far as you know, is the drawing of the line an important part of this?
Jennifer Groh：据您所知，线条的绘制是其中的重要组成部分吗？
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, it is.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，确实如此。
Jennifer Groh: You can't just put a line down and then bring the chicken over?
Jennifer Groh：你不能先放下一条线，然后把鸡端过来吧？
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, so I have to look at these videos again.
Andrew Huberman：是的，所以我必须再次观看这些视频。
It's been a little while, but what they do is they place the chicken kind of beak facing down, but they're not pushing the bird down, and then they draw the line-
已经有一段时间了，但他们所做的是将鸡的喙朝下放置，但他们没有将鸟推下去，然后他们画了线-
Jennifer Groh: Beak down.
詹妮弗·格罗：喙朝下。
Jennifer Groh: Starting from the beak?
Jennifer Groh：从喙开始？
Andrew Huberman: Starting...
安德鲁·休伯曼：开始……
No, starting...
不，开始...
I can't remember if it's starting from the beak outward or outward toward the beak.
我不记得是从喙开始向外还是向外朝向喙。
Jennifer Groh: Okay.
詹妮弗·格罗：好的。
Andrew Huberman: But what it does is it...
安德鲁·休伯曼：但它的作用是......
Harvey was the one...
哈维就是那个...
Okay, Harvey, the late, great Harvey Karten, I should just mention, he's...
好吧，哈维，已故的、伟大的哈维·卡滕，我只想提一下，他……
Jennifer Groh: Harvey Karten.
詹妮弗·格罗：哈维·卡滕。
Andrew Huberman: I'll put a link to an obit I wrote.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我会放一个我写的讣告的链接。
Jennifer Groh: He was great.
詹妮弗·格罗：他很棒。
Andrew Huberman: He was one of history's and the world's most incredible comparative neuroscientists.
安德鲁·休伯曼：他是历史上乃至世界上最令人难以置信的比较神经科学家之一。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: He also was a fire hose of information.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：他也是信息的消防水龙带。
He used to walk into my lab, and just start talking about diving birds and...
他曾经走进我的实验室，然后开始谈论潜水鸟类，然后……
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, he was one of those.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，他就是其中之一。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: But he made me seem quiet.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但他让我看起来很安静。
And he explained that when the birds, which have eyes on the side of their head, do this vergence eye movement, they get locked there.
他解释说，当鸟类的眼睛长在头部的一侧时，当它们进行这种目光聚散运动时，它们就会被锁定在那里。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: So, maybe it has to be away from the beak towards the beak?
詹妮弗·格罗：所以，也许它必须从喙到喙？
Andrew Huberman: Probably.
安德鲁·休伯曼：可能吧。
Yeah.
是的。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And it's funny because I mentioned this a few places before I had a podcast, and people who grew up on farms were like: "Oh, yeah, we would do that."
安德鲁·胡伯曼：这很有趣，因为我在播客之前曾在几个地方提到过这一点，而在农场长大的人会说：“哦，是的，我们会这样做。”
Jennifer Groh: Oh, interesting.
詹妮弗·格罗：噢，有趣。
Andrew Huberman: You can actually then take the bird and flip it over.
Andrew Huberman：实际上，你可以把鸟拿过来，然后把它翻过来。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Aggressive roosters become very calm, or you can work with them, manageable.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：好斗的公鸡会变得非常冷静，或者你可以与它们一起工作，易于管理。
Jennifer Groh: Wow!
詹妮弗·格罗：哇！
Andrew Huberman: And so, the vision drives our brain states.
Andrew Huberman：因此，视觉驱动我们的大脑状态。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And I think about this a lot in the context of the phone where our vision is brought into this little box.
Andrew Huberman：我在手机的背景下思考了很多这个问题，我们的愿景被带入这个小盒子里。
Jennifer Groh: Sure.
詹妮弗·格罗：当然。
Andrew Huberman: But the number of different contexts within that box is infinite.
Andrew Huberman：但是这个盒子里的不同上下文的数量是无限的。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: I mean, do you find...
詹妮弗·格罗：我的意思是，你发现……
I mean, diving into the phone thing, I'm definitely going to try the chicken thing.
我的意思是，深入研究电话的事情，我肯定会尝试鸡肉的事情。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, let me know.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，请告诉我。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Maybe I'll make a video.
也许我会制作一个视频。
Andrew Huberman: I mean, blinders, like they put on horses.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我的意思是，眼罩，就像他们戴在马身上一样。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
To keep them focused.
让他们保持专注。
Andrew Huberman: Or they put on...
安德鲁·休伯曼：或者他们穿上了……
Yeah.
是的。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Falconers use these, right?
安德鲁·休伯曼：猎鹰者使用这些，对吧？
The idea is you're trying to literally-
这个想法是你试图从字面上——
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Jennifer Groh: To physically make you focus on one thing.
Jennifer Groh：从身体上让你专注于一件事。
Andrew Huberman: That's right.
安德鲁·休伯曼：没错。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And there are some funny pictures that you can find on X every once in a while of focusing tools from the 1930s, where they would literally put kids in these helmets with just two little eye portals, and it was supposed to keep the kids that couldn't pay attention focused on their work so they wouldn't see any other kids.
Andrew Huberman：你偶尔可以在 X 上找到一些 20 世纪 30 年代聚焦工具的有趣图片，他们实际上会把孩子们戴在只有两个小眼孔的头盔上，它应该让那些无法集中注意力的孩子专注于他们的工作，这样他们就不会看到任何其他孩子。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: We think about it, it seems so silly and so barbaric.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我们想一想，这看起来是如此愚蠢和野蛮。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Well, I think, too, it could be helpful to ponder why one's attention is being drawn to other things.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯，我认为，思考为什么一个人的注意力会被其他事情吸引也会有所帮助。
Because I think that, like, the most relaxed I can get these days is if I know someone else is monitoring the state of the world and will let me know if there's some major disaster.
因为我认为，这些天我能得到的最放松的就是如果我知道其他人正在监视世界的状况，并且如果发生重大灾难就会让我知道。
Andrew Huberman: I've had to do some of that outsourcing, too.
Andrew Huberman：我也必须进行一些外包。
Jennifer Groh: Right?
詹妮弗·格罗：对吗？
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Jennifer Groh: But having that outsourced is super helpful because it satisfies the need to have a warning system going on at all times.
Jennifer Groh：但是将其外包非常有帮助，因为它满足了始终运行警报系统的需求。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: And it allows me to kind of, you know, then focus in on what's in front of me right at the moment.
詹妮弗·格罗：你知道，它让我能够专注于目前我面前的事情。
I'll give you an example that's not really about attention, but it's about, like, what's the best way for me to achieve a state of relaxation?
我给你举一个例子，这个例子并不是真正关于注意力，而是关于，让我达到放松状态的最佳方法是什么？
So, I went on a lovely rafting trip in Idaho this past summer.
所以，去年夏天我在爱达荷州进行了一次愉快的漂流之旅。
I have a ZOLEO satellite communicator.
我有一个 ZOLEO 卫星通信器。
This is basically a thing that interacts with your phone and interacts with a satellite.
这基本上是一个与你的手机交互并与卫星交互的东西。
You can't make phone calls, but you can send and receive text messages.
您无法拨打电话，但可以发送和接收短信。
And I brought that along because I felt that I would probably be more relaxed knowing that if something really bad happened, people could reach me, than being completely out of touch.
我把它带来了，因为我觉得我可能会更放松，因为我知道如果发生了非常糟糕的事情，人们可以联系我，而不是完全失去联系。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: So for me, that sort of middle space of some contact, otherwise, I'm going to be, you know, a heightened state of arousal when I come back out from the remote wilderness.
詹妮弗·格罗：所以对我来说，那种接触的中间空间，否则，当我从偏远的荒野回来时，我会处于一种高度兴奋的状态。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: You know, I think about people like my niece's generation.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你知道，我想到了像我侄女那一代人这样的人。
She's, you know, late teens, about to hit her 20s, and to completely remove oneself from smartphone technology in that age bracket sets up a kind of return to communication with others that probably involves a lot of stress.
你知道，她已经十几岁了，即将步入 20 多岁，在这个年龄段完全脱离智能手机技术会导致一种回归与他人沟通的方式，这可能会带来很大的压力。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Uh-huh.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Like, what are you going to get?
安德鲁·休伯曼：比如，你会得到什么？
It's like opening your email after a two-month vacation.
这就像两个月假期后打开电子邮件一样。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Jennifer Groh: Exactly.
詹妮弗·格罗：没错。
Andrew Huberman: And you just can't do that when you're running a lab.
Andrew Huberman：当你运行一个实验室时，你就不能这样做。
Jennifer Groh: And then, the re-entry is so painful of that sort of onslaught of things and even emotional messages from people that if you read them in order, you know, and it's five or six days ago, and you're like, "Ugh!"
詹妮弗·格罗：然后，重新进入是非常痛苦的，这种事情的冲击，甚至是人们的情感信息，如果你按顺序阅读它们，你知道，那是五六天前的事，你会说，“呃！”
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Then you see follow-up messages, and things got resolved without you, usually.
Jennifer Groh：然后你会看到后续消息，通常情况下，没有你的帮助，事情就得到了解决。
Fingers crossed.
手指交叉。
Usually, that's what happens.
通常情况就是这样。
It so rapidly wipes out that state of calm that you can get from being out in the wilderness.
它如此之快地消除了你在荒野中所能获得的平静状态。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I will periodically go into the wilderness.
Andrew Huberman：是的，我会定期去荒野。
I did this recently, and I didn't notify enough people.
我最近这样做了，但没有通知足够多的人。
But I notified the critical ones.
但我通知了关键的人。
And people don't like it.
人们不喜欢它。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: No. Well, I wish we could set up an auto-reply for text messaging.
Jennifer Groh：不。好吧，我希望我们可以设置短信自动回复功能。
That would make me feel more calm.
这会让我感觉更平静。
Andrew Huberman: What I'm hearing from you is that you embrace the natural peaks and valleys in your attention.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我从你那里听到的是，你的注意力集中在自然的高峰和低谷上。
You've figured out what works for you in different contexts.
您已经找到了在不同情况下什么对您有用。
It's not like it's always one sentence, a break, one sentence...
并不总是一句话，一个休息，一句话......
It really depends.
这确实取决于。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And I think we hear a lot about how phones are the problem.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我想我们经常听到有关手机问题的说法。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: We had Jonathan Haidt on this podcast.
Andrew Huberman：乔纳森·海特 (Jonathan Haidt) 参与了这个播客。
He's the most vocal out there, and I really support his message, so I want to be clear about that.
他是最有发言权的人，我真的支持他的观点，所以我想澄清这一点。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: But for many people, it's just not feasible.
Andrew Huberman：但对于很多人来说，这是不可行的。
People with kids, people with jobs, people outside the elementary and high school classroom, people need to be accessible if something critical comes through, and I think that's really the thing, is it's just very unfiltered, and that's what is leading to so many challenges with getting real work done.
有孩子的人、有工作的人、小学和高中课堂之外的人，如果有重要的事情发生，人们需要能够接触到，我认为这确实是问题所在，它只是非常未经过滤的，这就是导致完成实际工作面临如此多挑战的原因。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
I think the movement to get them out of schools is good.
我认为让他们离开学校的运动是好的。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: I felt like we, as parents, had no choice, that our children were being...
Jennifer Groh：我觉得作为父母，我们别无选择，我们的孩子正在……
It was a required part of what they had to do in the classroom, was to have access to the internet on something.
这是他们在课堂上必须要做的事情的一部分，就是通过某些东西访问互联网。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: You know, at least recognizing that problem and being a little more thoughtful about it, and the cases where schools have decided to keep the phones all the way out of the classroom, I think, certainly that's worth trying, and let's see how it goes.
詹妮弗·格罗：你知道，至少认识到这个问题并对此进行更多思考，以及学校决定将手机完全排除在教室之外的情况，我认为这当然值得尝试，让我们看看情况如何。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: So I try to be aware, what am I getting from the phone at any particular moment in time or for any particular purpose?
Jennifer Groh：所以我试着意识到，在任何特定时刻或出于任何特定目的，我从手机中得到了什么？
So, I feel pretty good about texting with my friends and family.
因此，我对与朋友和家人发短信感到非常满意。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: I feel great about using it to have access to public transit in the cities that I'm not familiar with.
Jennifer Groh：在我不熟悉的城市使用它来乘坐公共交通让我感觉很棒。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Love that.
詹妮弗·格罗：喜欢这个。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Love it as a travel tool, love it for booking plane flights and things like that.
Jennifer Groh：喜欢将其作为旅行工具，喜欢用它来预订飞机航班之类的事情。
So convenient that I can do that.
太方便了，我可以这么做。
It frees up time that I would otherwise be at my computer doing some deeper work.
它节省了我在电脑前做一些更深层次工作的时间。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Okay, now, I can do that on my phone somewhere when I just have a free moment.
Jennifer Groh：好的，现在，当我有空的时候，我可以在手机上做这件事。
So I love that.
所以我喜欢这样。
I think it's useful for me to try to be aware of, what do I want to get out of my phone right now, and am I just bored?
我认为尝试了解一下我现在想从手机中得到什么以及我只是无聊吗？
You know, if I'm using it because I'm just bored, that's the thing that, okay, let me see if I can swap it out for something that might be a little healthier, like listening to a podcast, or listening to an audiobook, or reading a book on my phone, or reading an actual book.
你知道，如果我只是因为无聊而使用它，那么好吧，让我看看是否可以将其换成更健康的东西，比如听播客，或听有声读物，或在手机上读书，或阅读一本真正的书。
That can be good.
那很好。
I've tried to set myself up with some exit paths from being on my phone.
我尝试为自己设置一些退出方式，让自己不再使用手机。
Like, okay, yes, I will admit, it's one of the first things I do in the morning.
就像，好吧，是的，我承认，这是我早上做的第一件事。
I know I should go outside and touch grass and get some sun.
我知道我应该出去摸摸草地，晒晒太阳。
Andrew Huberman: Get some sunlight.
安德鲁·休伯曼：晒晒太阳吧。
Jennifer Groh: I know.
詹妮弗·格罗：我知道。
I know.
我知道。
Andrew Huberman: Set that circadian rhythm.
Andrew Huberman：设定昼夜节律。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Well, I often wake up before it's light out, so I have to wait for that anyway.
嗯，我经常在天亮之前就醒了，所以无论如何我都必须等待。
So, for example, I'll do my one or two hits on Duolingo, and one or two other language apps.
例如，我会在 Duolingo 和其他一两个语言应用程序上进行一两次点击。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: I'll do a couple of my favorite games on the New York Times Games site.
Jennifer Groh：我会在纽约时报游戏网站上制作一些我最喜欢的游戏。
But those are usually things that, like, there's a sense of satiety, there's a sense of being finished.
但这些通常是一些东西，比如，有一种饱足感，有一种完成的感觉。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Like, it's not an endless scroll.
Jennifer Groh：就像，这不是一个无尽的卷轴。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: I have completed one lesson, so there's a moment to get off the phone.
Jennifer Groh：我已经完成了一堂课，所以现在可以挂断电话了。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: I'd love to have an app that limited the endless scroll on social media, like an interface to social media that sort of served me maybe some designated number of posts, and then I would have to take some explicit action to get more, and that might help me get off.
Jennifer Groh：我希望有一个应用程序能够限制社交媒体上无休止的滚动，就像社交媒体的界面一样，它可以为我提供一些指定数量的帖子，然后我必须采取一些明确的行动才能获得更多帖子，这可能会帮助我摆脱困境。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, based on the dopamine literature and everything I know about the brain, I decided that any activity that has a seamless on-ramp to full attention, and that has no endpoint, you mentioned endpoint, is the thing to be really careful of.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，根据多巴胺文献和我对大脑的了解，我认为任何能够无缝进入全神贯注的活动，并且没有终点，你提到的终点，都是需要真正小心的事情。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: So, the seamless on-ramp to grabbing it, full attention.
Andrew Huberman：所以，无缝入口坡道抓住它，全神贯注。
It's like ball bearing from flat surface into the trench.
这就像滚珠轴承从平坦的表面进入沟槽。
There's no work involved.
不涉及任何工作。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: And then you're there, and you can stay there as long as you want.
Andrew Huberman：然后你就在那里，想呆多久就呆多久。
It doesn't kick you out.
它不会把你踢出去。
You have to kick yourself out, or life kicks you out because you didn't go do something or something happens.
你必须把自己踢出去，否则生活就会把你踢出去，因为你没有去做某事或发生了什么事。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: So, that's key.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，这是关键。
So that's the slot machine analogy.
这就是老虎机的类比。
It's very easy to play a slot machine.
玩老虎机非常容易。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And, it's very easy to spend out all your money on a slot machine.
Andrew Huberman：而且，很容易把所有的钱都花在老虎机上。
And so they created this thing, like, where you can go get more money out of a machine, right?
所以他们创造了这个东西，比如，你可以从机器中获得更多的钱，对吗？
So, you can continue playing on the other machine, and that's the same thing, but it's how seamless it is.
所以，你可以继续在另一台机器上玩，这是同样的事情，但它是多么的无缝。
Like, you don't even need to learn the card game to gamble.
就像，你甚至不需要学习纸牌游戏就可以赌博。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: You just have to know how to pull a lever, press a button.
Andrew Huberman：你只需要知道如何拉动杠杆，按下按钮。
Social media is a bit the same.
社交媒体也有一点相同。
My solution to the social media thing is I took an old phone.
我解决社交媒体问题的方法是拿一部旧手机。
I put X and Instagram on that phone.
我在那部手机上安装了 X 和 Instagram。
Jennifer Groh: Uh-huh.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Those are the only two social media platforms I use, and if somebody sends me something on my phone, like it's social media, I can't go to it.
Andrew Huberman：这是我使用的唯一两个社交媒体平台，如果有人通过我的手机向我发送一些内容，比如社交媒体，我就无法访问。
So, I have to segregate social media.
所以，我必须隔离社交媒体。
Jennifer Groh: Got it.
詹妮弗·格罗：明白了。
Andrew Huberman: I have a social media phone, and I only get a certain amount of time with it.
Andrew Huberman：我有一部社交媒体手机，但我只能在一定的时间内使用它。
Jennifer Groh: You can't get into your social media from a browser?
Jennifer Groh：您无法通过浏览器进入社交媒体？
Andrew Huberman: No.
安德鲁·休伯曼：不。
Jennifer Groh: Okay.
詹妮弗·格罗：好的。
Andrew Huberman: No. So, if someone sends me an Instagram post, I click on it, I can't see it.
Andrew Huberman：不。所以，如果有人向我发送 Instagram 帖子，我点击它，但我看不到它。
I get that error signal, "Sign in," and I'm not signed in.
我收到错误信号“登录”，但我尚未登录。
It's like-
这就像——
Jennifer Groh: Oh!
詹妮弗·格罗：哦！
You're not signed in.
您尚未登录。
Andrew Huberman: I don't even know my password.
Andrew Huberman：我什至不知道我的密码。
Jennifer Groh: Okay.
詹妮弗·格罗：好的。
Andrew Huberman: It's written someplace.
Andrew Huberman：它写在某个地方。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: But I have a password generator.
Andrew Huberman：但我有一个密码生成器。
It updates all the time anyway, so...
反正它一直在更新，所以...
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Okay, I see how you would do that.
好吧，我知道你会怎么做。
Andrew Huberman: So, the solution was to create-
Andrew Huberman：所以，解决方案是创建-
Jennifer Groh: To log out and then have a phone that just had those-
Jennifer Groh：注销然后拥有一部只有这些功能的手机-
Andrew Huberman: I don't even have the apps on that phone.
Andrew Huberman：我的手机上什至没有这些应用程序。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah, I have never-
Jennifer Groh：是的，我从来没有-
Andrew Huberman: I would have to install the apps.
Andrew Huberman：我必须安装这些应用程序。
I'd have to sign in.
我必须登录。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Andrew Huberman: I'd have to find my password, which my team knows that's never going to happen.
Andrew Huberman：我必须找到我的密码，但我的团队知道这永远不会发生。
I'd have to log in, so I just don't-
我必须登录，所以我不-
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Jennifer Groh: Too many keystrokes.
Jennifer Groh：击键太多。
Andrew Huberman: I just don't have access to it.
Andrew Huberman：我只是无权访问它。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Unless I'm on that phone, so-
Andrew Huberman：除非我在打电话，所以-
Jennifer Groh: That's great.
詹妮弗·格罗：那太好了。
I think that's perfect.
我认为这很完美。
Andrew Huberman: I mean, it works for me.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我的意思是，它对我有用。
Jennifer Groh: Works for you, yeah.
Jennifer Groh：对你有用，是的。
Great.
伟大的。
Andrew Huberman: Works for me.
安德鲁·休伯曼：为我工作。
But I think having systems like this is, like, going to be required for most people because I don't think anyone's going to create the app that you're looking for.
但我认为大多数人都需要拥有这样的系统，因为我认为没有人会创建您正在寻找的应用程序。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah.
詹妮弗·格罗：是的。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman: I hope they do, but I don't think they're going to.
Andrew Huberman：我希望他们这样做，但我认为他们不会这样做。
Jennifer Groh: Right.
詹妮弗·格罗：对。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: So, your lab is still super productive, so when you're in the lab, presumably, and interacting with students and writing grants and stuff, all this stuff falls away, right?
Andrew Huberman：所以，你的实验室仍然非常高效，所以当你在实验室里与学生互动并撰写补助金之类的东西时，所有这些东西都会消失，对吗？
Because inside the lab context, it's like your workshop.
因为在实验室环境中，它就像您的工作室。
I'm guessing that makes it much easier.
我猜这会让事情变得容易得多。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: That's true.
詹妮弗·格罗：确实如此。
That's true.
这是真的。
Yeah, when I'm interacting with people at work, or I'm in the actual lab, it does, it all falls away.
是的，当我在工作中与人互动，或者在实际的实验室中时，一切都会消失。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jennifer Groh: Yeah, the cues to stay focused are very strong.
Jennifer Groh：是的，保持专注的暗示非常强烈。
Andrew Huberman: I knew we were going to talk about the auditory system.
Andrew Huberman：我知道我们要讨论听觉系统。
Jennifer Groh: Mm-hmm.
詹妮弗·格罗：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And we did.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我们做到了。
I knew we were going to talk about the visual system, and we did, and I knew we were going to talk about their integration.
我知道我们要讨论视觉系统，我们确实这么做了，而且我知道我们要讨论它们的集成。
What I did not expect, but I'm so delighted happened, is that you brought us into the realm of true multi-sensory integration, and the extent to which our physical environment shapes the way that our brain works.
我没想到但我很高兴发生的是，你把我们带入了真正的多感官整合的领域，以及我们的物理环境在多大程度上塑造了我们大脑的工作方式。
And our brain is also creating its own internal environment, and that we have a lot more control over that than perhaps we think, unless we just leave it to circumstances, which is really the takeaway that, at least, I pulled from this last portion of our conversation.
我们的大脑也在创造自己的内部环境，我们对此的控制权可能比我们想象的要多得多，除非我们只是将其交给环境，这确实是至少我从谈话的最后部分得出的结论。
So, thank you so much for coming here and explaining this.
所以，非常感谢您来到这里并解释这一点。
We've not talked about multi-sensory integration before.
我们之前没有讨论过多感官整合。
Andrew Huberman: I started off by saying that, and now we have, and I'm so glad that you were the one to introduce it to us, because it's a fascinating aspect of how we work, and it's really the core mechanics of how we work.
Andrew Huberman：我一开始就这么说，现在我们做到了，我很高兴你是第一个向我们介绍它的人，因为这是我们工作方式的一个有趣的方面，而且它确实是我们工作方式的核心机制。
When we talk about thinking or working or focus, we're not just talking about vision or hearing.
当我们谈论思考、工作或注意力时，我们不仅仅是在谈论视觉或听觉。
We're talking about their merge, so...
我们正在谈论他们的合并，所以......
Jennifer Groh: Exactly.
詹妮弗·格罗：没错。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Andrew Huberman: It's really wonderful, and let me know how the experiment with the chickens go.
Andrew Huberman：这真的很棒，让我知道用鸡进行的实验进展如何。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Jennifer Groh: Thank you so much.
詹妮弗·格罗：非常感谢。
This has been great.
这太棒了。
Andrew Huberman: No, well, I really enjoyed it.
Andrew Huberman：不，嗯，我真的很喜欢它。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Jennifer Groh: Thank you.
詹妮弗·格罗：谢谢。
Andrew Huberman: Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Jennifer Groh.
Andrew Huberman：感谢您参加今天与 Jennifer Groh 博士的讨论。
To learn more about her laboratory's work and to find a link to her excellent book entitled "Making Space: How the Brain Knows Where Things Are," please see the show note captions.
要了解有关她实验室工作的更多信息，并找到她题为“创造空间：大脑如何知道事物在哪里”的优秀著作的链接，请参阅节目注释标题。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the Follow button on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的“关注”按钮来关注播客。
Andrew Huberman: And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review, and you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.
Andrew Huberman：在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们留下五星级的评论，现在您可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast, or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问或对播客有意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑嘉宾或主题，请将这些内容放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
Andrew Huberman: For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
安德鲁·休伯曼：对于那些还没有听说过的人，我有一本新书即将出版。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience, and it covers protocols for everything from sleep, to exercise, to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这是我花了五年多时间编写的一本书，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验，涵盖了从睡眠、锻炼、压力控制、与注意力和动机相关的各个方面的方案，当然，我还为所包含的方案提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body."
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。
Andrew Huberman: And if you're not already following me on social media, I am hubermanlab on all social media platforms, so that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
Andrew Huberman：如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 hubermanlab，包括 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。
Again, it's hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
再说一遍，所有社交媒体平台上都是 hubermanlab。
Andrew Huberman: And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.
Andrew Huberman：如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available completely zero cost.
所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email, and I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件，我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Andrew Huberman: Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Jennifer Groh.
Andrew Huberman：再次感谢您参加今天与 Jennifer Groh 博士的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。