How Your Immune System Works & How to Improve It | Dr. Max Krummel
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
A famous immunologist in the 1970s drew this parallel in wartime and said in World War II, submarines had two sets of books.
20世纪70年代的一位著名免疫学家在战时做了这样的比喻，他说，在二战中，潜艇有两套书。
One of them was a book that gave them the sound profile of all the US submarines.
其中一本书为他们提供了所有美国潜艇的详细资料。
And so they could listen to the whir of the engines, and if they heard a whir of the engine that had the certain cycle of a General Motors engine, they wouldn't fire.
这样他们就可以听到发动机的呼呼声，如果他们听到具有通用汽车发动机特定周期的发动机的呼呼声，他们就不会点火。
So that's the sort of like self, I know what self is.
这有点像自我，我知道自我是什么。
And then they had another book that was the engine sounds of the known diesel engines of whatever engines of the German submarines.
然后他们还有另一本书，是德国潜艇的已知柴油发动机的发动机声音。
And if they heard that, then they absolutely would fire.
如果他们听到了，那么他们绝对会开枪。
And that's a self versus non-self-discrimination problem, just like the immune system has to do.
这是一个自我与非自我歧视的问题，就像免疫系统必须做的那样。
But what I bring you with it aging is this concept that as you get weirder and different, and your body is getting more complex, than as those books start to have every possible, possibly every possible permutation of every biomolecule could be made by your body at that point.
但随着年龄的增长，我给你带来的是这样一个概念：随着你变得越来越奇怪、越来越不同，你的身体也变得越来越复杂，比那些书开始拥有每一个生物分子的每一种可能、可能每一种可能的排列都可以由你的身体在那时做出。
And then a virus doesn't necessarily have anything unique about it.
然后病毒不一定有任何独特之处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. Max Krummel, a professor and leading expert in immunology and cancer biology at the University of California, San Francisco.
今天我的嘉宾是马克斯·克鲁梅尔 (Max Krummel) 博士，他是旧金山加利福尼亚大学免疫学和癌症生物学领域的教授和领先专家。
Today, we discuss your immune system, how it works, what it needs to function at its best, and how things like aging, vaccines, sleep, and even your thoughts and emotions shape immune function.
今天，我们讨论您的免疫系统，它是如何工作的，它需要什么才能发挥最佳功能，以及衰老、疫苗、睡眠等因素如何影响免疫功能。
For instance, most everybody knows that being sleep-deprived makes you more prone to getting sick.
例如，大多数人都知道睡眠不足会让你更容易生病。
But why?
但为什么？
Meaning mechanistically why?
从机械角度来说是为什么？
Well, it turns out there's a specific set of cells that need to migrate in a particular way during sleep, and we talk about how you can reinforce that process in ways other than sleep.
好吧，事实证明，有一组特定的细胞需要在睡眠期间以特定的方式迁移，我们讨论如何以睡眠以外的方式强化这一过程。
We also discuss incredible findings that certain brain states and memories can be associated with an immune system status you had when those memories formed, and evidence that just recalling those memories, thinking about where you were, what you were feeling at those times when the memories formed, can activate your immune system in the same way, which is remarkable.
我们还讨论了令人难以置信的发现，即某些大脑状态和记忆可能与这些记忆形成时的免疫系统状态有关，并且有证据表明，只要回忆这些记忆，想想你在哪里，当记忆形成时你的感受是什么，就能以同样的方式激活你的免疫系统，这是值得注意的。
We also have a very candid discussion about vaccines and medications more broadly.
我们还就更广泛的疫苗和药物进行了非常坦诚的讨论。
You'll notice that Dr. Krummel is incredibly balanced throughout today's conversation, and yet he's also willing to state his views very clearly.
您会注意到，克鲁梅尔博士在今天的谈话中非常平衡，但他也愿意非常清楚地表达自己的观点。
So it provides a very rich discussion about vaccines and all the rest.
因此，它提供了有关疫苗和其他所有内容的非常丰富的讨论。
Indeed, thanks to Max's incredible breadth of understanding of immunology and much more, and his ability to break down complex topics and make them accessible, plus his genuine care for public education and science, today's is a truly special and important episode to educate and inform you in actionable ways.
事实上，由于马克斯对免疫学等方面有着令人难以置信的广度理解，以及他分解复杂主题并使之易于理解的能力，再加上他对公共教育和科学的真正关心，今天的节目是一个真正特别和重要的节目，以可行的方式教育和告知您。
I should also mention that Dr. Krummel has an incredible zero-cost Substack.
我还应该提到 Krummel 博士有一个令人难以置信的零成本子堆栈。
It's called The Immune Beyond.
它被称为“超越免疫”。
You can access it by going to theimmunebeyond, all one word, .substack.com, and there he teaches about science and more.
您可以通过访问 theimmunebeyond（统称为 .substack.com）来访问它，他在那里教授科学等知识。
Again, it's awesome, it's free, so definitely check it out.
再说一次，它太棒了，而且是免费的，所以一定要检查一下。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Max Krummel.
现在我与马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士进行了讨论。
Dr. Max Krummel, welcome.
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士，欢迎光临。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Thanks.
谢谢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Most everybody, including me, has heard of this thing we call the immune system, and most people just think, "Okay, this is the thing that when I'm rested, it keeps me from getting sick, and when I'm not as well rested, I tend to get more sick, and there are these airborne things, and we can get sick, and there's funguses and viruses." And I think that's probably what most people understand.
大多数人，包括我，都听说过这个我们称之为免疫系统的东西，大多数人只是想，“好吧，当我休息时，它可以防止我生病，当我休息不好时，我往往会生病更严重，空气中存在这些东西，我们可能会生病，还有真菌和病毒。”我想这可能是大多数人的理解。
And they probably also understand that there are cells and T cells and B cells, but if we want to think about a little bit of the history of our understanding of the immune system and what we understand now, maybe you could orient us, because in reading your work prior to this discussion, I'm realizing that this is a very recent field, and also there's still a lot that we do not understand.
他们可能也明白有细胞、T细胞和B细胞，但如果我们想思考一下我们对免疫系统的理解历史以及我们现在所理解的内容，也许你可以引导我们，因为在这次讨论之前阅读你的工作，我意识到这是一个非常新的领域，而且还有很多我们不理解的地方。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
When I started in immunology, sort of 30 years ago, I was rotating in labs at Berkeley, I think you were at Berkeley as well, and one of the transcription factor biologists, mentor said, "Why do you want to work in immunology?
大约 30 年前，当我开始从事免疫学工作时，我在伯克利的实验室轮转，我想你也在伯克利，一位转录因子生物学家导师说，“你为什么想从事免疫学工作？
It's not really a field." And so at the time, it was true.
这并不是一个真正的领域。”所以在当时，这是真的。
Everything was about DNAs, cloning.
一切都与DNA、克隆有关。
It's obviously still a lot about molecular biology, what we do, but at the time it was pretty simple.
显然，我们所做的仍然与分子生物学有关，但当时它非常简单。
We thought of the immune system as something that on the one hand, it had to come into play when you saw a virus or something foreign, and otherwise it generally had to be quiescent and leave you alone.
我们认为免疫系统一方面，当你看到病毒或异物时，它必须发挥作用，否则它通常必须保持静止，让你独自一人。
I think cancer immunotherapy changed that a lot, that gave us the idea that you could tune its reactivity so that you could get to the point where if you gave an immunotherapy, what it was actually doing was raising the threshold of when a T cell would activate and allowing T cells that might be just letting the tumor get by, they'd be able to go and go after that tumor and kill it.
我认为癌症免疫疗法改变了很多，这给了我们这样的想法：你可以调整它的反应性，这样你就可以达到这样的程度：如果你进行免疫疗法，它实际上所做的是提高T细胞激活的阈值，并允许那些可能只是让肿瘤通过的T细胞能够去追踪肿瘤并杀死它。
I think that changed the spectrum a certain degree, where we suddenly thought, "Okay, this isn't just a foreign versus self thing," because a tumor is not exactly self, but it's also not foreign.
我认为这在一定程度上改变了光谱，我们突然想到，“好吧，这不仅仅是外来物与自身的问题”，因为肿瘤并不完全是自身的，但它也不是外来的。
It was once you.
曾经是你。
It's a cell that's evolved.
这是一个进化的细胞。
So I think tumor immunology really changed our perspective on that, to the point where we now think of it as a tuneable system.
所以我认为肿瘤免疫学确实改变了我们对此的看法，以至于我们现在将其视为一个可调节的系统。
But then I think a lot has happened in the last 20 years.
但我认为过去 20 年发生了很多事情。
There's been a lot of excitement about cancer immunotherapy because, well, we're curing people with cancer, which really wasn't done before.
人们对癌症免疫疗法感到非常兴奋，因为我们正在治愈癌症患者，这在以前确实是没有做过的。
You're now in the space where the immune system is showing all these other roles.
现在，免疫系统正在发挥所有其他作用。
You know it in the nervous system, in the brain, there's microglia that do various functions, cleaning up, et cetera, but it's in your gut.
你知道，在神经系统中，在大脑中，有小胶质细胞执行各种功能，清理等等，但它在你的肠道中。
It's allowing microbes to live in you, but it's titrating them.
它允许微生物在你体内生存，但它会滴定它们。
It's keeping them there in the right quantity.
它将它们保持在适当的数量。
So it's guarding yourself.
所以这是在保护自己。
It sits in your liver Regulating how much you metabolize.
它位于您的肝脏中，调节您的代谢量。
There's a collection of cells there.
那里有一组细胞。
It's in your heart.
它在你心里。
It's regulating cardiomyocyte function.
它调节心肌细胞功能。
Those are the muscle cells of your heart.
这些是心脏的肌肉细胞。
They have to be cleaned up from time to time, so there's a set of immune cells that will help get rid of their byproducts in the heart.
它们必须不时地被清理，所以有一组免疫细胞可以帮助清除它们在心脏中的副产品。
So it has all these additional functions that before were lost in the foreign, battle against the foreign.
所以它具有所有这些以前在对外、与外国的战斗中失去的附加功能。
And now we have this perspective of this system that measures us all the time.
现在我们对这个系统有了这样的视角，它一直在衡量我们。
It measures everything about us, and it exists in some ways, I think it's to help us be who we are.
它衡量我们的一切，它以某些方式存在，我认为它可以帮助我们成为我们自己。
Hopefully that's you as a healthy person.
希望这就是作为一个健康人的你。
In chronic disease, unfortunately, it can be part of the problem, where it becomes part of the things that's letting the chronic thing, whether that's a tumor or kidney disease or what have you, it can actually help perpetuate it because, well, in some ways it's trying its best.
不幸的是，在慢性疾病中，它可能是问题的一部分，它成为导致慢性疾病的一部分，无论是肿瘤、肾脏疾病还是其他什么疾病，它实际上可以帮助它长期存在，因为，嗯，在某些方面它正在尽最大努力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
But it's applying the wrong program to the wrong situation.
但这是在错误的情况下应用了错误的程序。
So yeah, it's changed a ton.
所以是的，它发生了很大的变化。
I'll give you another little funny story, which is that when I first came into immunology, again, we had this story, like a mentor who says, "This isn't really a field." The year was, I came into the field in 1989, and that's right at the peak of AIDS.
我再给你讲另一个有趣的小故事，当我第一次进入免疫学领域时，我们又听到了这个故事，就像一位导师说的那样：“这并不是一个真正的领域。”那一年，我是 1989 年进入这个领域的，当时正值艾滋病流行的高峰期。
And AIDS was, as a biologist, was really interesting because the HIV virus infects T cells.
作为一名生物学家，艾滋病确实很有趣，因为 HIV 病毒会感染 T 细胞。
So your body is filled with 10 to the 11th or so T cells, like a ton of different kinds of T cells.
所以你的身体充满了 10 到 11 个左右的 T 细胞，就像大量不同种类的 T 细胞。
And you have a subset of T cells that are called CD4 T cells.
T 细胞的一个子集称为 CD4 T 细胞。
They're a flavor of T cells.
它们是 T 细胞的一种。
And the virus gets rid of those.
病毒会消除这些。
So HIV virus will infect the CD4 T cells, and then you end up with not having them.
所以 HIV 病毒会感染 CD4 T 细胞，然后你就失去了它们。
And the manifestations of AIDS, for those that weren't around during it, was just a ton of different opportunistic infections.
对于那些不在艾滋病期间的人来说，艾滋病的表现只是大量不同的机会性感染。
So soil bacteria that you and I fight off without even thinking about it would kill people.
因此，你我想都没想就消灭的土壤细菌会杀死人。
But so too you saw people with carcinosarcoma, you saw a opportunistic virus where a cancer's emerging.
但你也看到了患有癌肉瘤的人，你看到了一种机会性病毒，其中癌症正在出现。
And you just saw all these manifestations of where the immune system was important, dementias in people with HIV as well.
您刚刚看到了免疫系统重要性的所有这些表现，以及艾滋病毒感染者的痴呆症。
It was an early accent at the time on how many different things the immune system might be important for.
当时人们很早就强调免疫系统可能对许多不同的事情很重要。
So regardless of whether it was a field or not, it was clearly important.
所以无论它是否是一个领域，它显然都很重要。
And it was all these things we didn't know about it that fueled the discoveries that have led to where we are right now.
正是所有这些我们不知道的事情推动了我们的发现，使我们达到了现在的水平。
And some of those, I think it's worth pointing out, were just these curiosity questions.
我认为值得指出的是，其中一些只是出于好奇的问题。
Like, "What are these cells like?" They were hard to study at the beginning.
就像，“这些细胞是什么样的？”他们一开始学习很困难。
Sometimes it's hard to keep cells out of a human body alive.
有时很难让细胞离开人体存活。
So, there's issues about how do you keep these things alive in the very first place?
那么，首先存在的问题是如何让这些东西保持活力？
And then, what kinds of things trigger them to do stuff?
那么，什么样的事情会触发他们做某事呢？
And you've got to make reagents to test those ideas you might have about what they might do.
你必须制造试剂来测试你可能有的关于它们可能做什么的想法。
It was a long haul, I think, to get ourselves together, where we now have a pretty good understanding of all the molecules and the cell types and the behaviors that they can engage in.
我认为，我们花了很长时间才聚集在一起，现在我们对所有分子和细胞类型以及它们可以参与的行为有了很好的了解。
And it just gets more complex and more rich as we understand that they're basically every single T cell in your body is like a free agent, and they're part of a sensory system.
当我们知道它们基本上是你体内的每一个 T 细胞就像一个自由个体，并且它们是感觉系统的一部分时，它就会变得更加复杂和丰富。
Each one can measure the concentration of a set of biomolecules, proteins, in the form of peptides.
每个都可以测量一组肽形式的生物分子、蛋白质的浓度。
They can measure that, and each one then can say that's out of range or that's in range.
他们可以测量这一点，然后每个人都可以说它超出了范围或在范围内。
So it's like you have 10 to the 11th little sensors going around you, curating you, making sure you're the right thing.
就好像你周围有 10 到 11 个小传感器，它们在指导你，确保你做的是正确的事。
And if they see something that's out of range, they can do something about it.
如果他们看到超出范围的东西，他们可以采取措施。
The whole thing is magnificent.
整个事情是宏伟的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It is magnificent.
真是太壮观了。
Do you mind if we take a developmental perspective on this for a second?
您介意我们从发展的角度来看待这个问题吗？
And then I have a basic health question.
然后我有一个基本的健康问题。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The developmental perspective is, I think most of us either remember or have observed that when humans are young, they get sick a lot more.
从发展的角度来看，我认为我们大多数人都记得或观察到，当人类年轻时，他们生病的次数会更多。
Presumably that's because their immune system isn't as well developed.
据推测，这是因为他们的免疫系统尚未发育完善。
But kids tend to get sick and then get over being sick pretty quickly.
但孩子们往往会生病，然后很快就会康复。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe you could describe what's going on there.
也许你可以描述一下那里发生了什么。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it also is the case that as we get older, much older in fact, last quarter of life, let's say, people tend to get sick more.
事实上，随着我们年龄的增长，事实上，在生命的最后四分之一，人们往往会生病更多。
What's going on in terms of immune system function?
免疫系统功能发生了什么？
Or is there something more broadly happening at level of just energetics, mitochondrial function?
或者在能量学、线粒体功能层面上是否发生了更广泛的事情？
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very curious about this.
对此非常好奇。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
If I can take a step even further back, I will ask you a question of who are you?
如果我可以退一步，我会问你一个问题：你是谁？
And I don't mean that in a personal sense, but we can talk about that too if you want.
我并不是指个人意义上的，但如果你愿意的话我们也可以讨论这个问题。
But the moral of the question is, at some point, where does your body end and where does the world outside start?
但问题的寓意是，在某些时候，你的身体在哪里结束，外面的世界从哪里开始？
And one of the things that you start to realize if you look in a microscope is that we're covered with microbes all over our surface.
如果你用显微镜观察，你会开始意识到，我们的表面布满了微生物。
We're covered with microbes all the way in our gut.
我们的肠道里一直布满了微生物。
In fact, you've probably heard this before, but you can't digest animal fats if it weren't for the bugs, the bacteria in your gut.
事实上，您以前可能听说过这一点，但如果没有肠道中的细菌，您就无法消化动物脂肪。
They make some of the key components of bile acids that allow you to digest animal fats.
它们产生胆汁酸的一些关键成分，可以帮助您消化动物脂肪。
So you need this system that's around you.
所以你需要这个在你身边的系统。
So you aren't just the cell, if you learn biology, again, we're going to go way back.
所以你不仅仅是细胞，如果你学习生物学，我们会再回到过去。
There's the egg and the sperm.
那里有卵子和精子。
And they fertilize, and now you got this cell that starts to divide and gives rise to every other cell in our body.
它们受精，现在这个细胞开始分裂并产生我们体内的所有其他细胞。
So you might say that your body is just that collection of cells.
所以你可能会说你的身体就是细胞的集合。
But in fact, it's absorbed a lot of viruses and bacteria from our environment.
但事实上，它吸收了我们环境中的大量病毒和细菌。
And to go into that really briefly, that's really important because we only have 20,000 genes in our genome.
简单来说，这非常重要，因为我们的基因组中只有 20,000 个基因。
So there's only so much in a given life that we can do with those genes.
因此，在特定的生命中，我们能利用这些基因做的事情是有限的。
And so by absorbing all kinds of other species onto us, we get their genomes.
因此，通过吸收各种其他物种到我们身上，我们获得了它们的基因组。
So like I was saying, the bacteria in your gut can now help you absorb nutrients that you wouldn't otherwise.
正如我所说，肠道中的细菌现在可以帮助您吸收原本无法吸收的营养物质。
If you eat sushi, you've heard this probably, right?
如果你吃过寿司，你可能听说过这个，对吧？
You get bacteria in your gut that can help you absorb the seaweed, nutrients from seaweed.
肠道内的细菌可以帮助您吸收海藻和海藻中的营养物质。
So, taking this into your question, when you're first born, you've never really seen anything.
所以，考虑到你的问题，当你第一次出生时，你从未真正见过任何东西。
And so two things are I think worth pointing out at the early phase of life.
因此，我认为在生命的早期阶段有两件事值得指出。
One of them is, for the first six months or so, your immune system is pretty poor at being trained on things.
其中之一是，在最初六个月左右的时间里，您的免疫系统在接受事物训练方面表现不佳。
And we presume that for those six months that's because your body's developing so fast that if you were to have a super active immune system, you might actually find yourself attacking yourself.
我们推测，在这六个月里，这是因为您的身体发育得太快，如果您拥有超级活跃的免疫系统，您实际上可能会发现自己在攻击自己。
You might think that you're a foreign, because some genes turn on during development, and then all of a sudden your immune system's like, "Oh, I see something different, and now I need to react." So that's well-known, and that's one of the reasons why some childhood vaccinations that are really important to protect kids over life, why they aren't given until you're six months or older.
你可能会认为自己是外国人，因为一些基因在发育过程中开启，然后突然你的免疫系统会说，“哦，我看到了一些不同的东西，现在我需要做出反应。”这是众所周知的，这就是为什么一些儿童疫苗接种对于保护孩子的一生非常重要，也是为什么直到六个月或以上才接种疫苗的原因之一。
But I think to your point, one of the things that's happening with kids is that then as they go into their like until they're 10, and you're talking about they get sick a lot, they just haven't seen a lot of these bugs before.
但我认为，就你的观点而言，孩子们身上发生的事情之一是，当他们到 10 岁的时候，他们就会生病，你说的是他们经常生病，他们只是以前没有见过很多这样的虫子。
So they don't have an immune system that knows what flu is, because they've never seen it.
所以他们没有知道什么是流感的免疫系统，因为他们从未见过流感。
That body, like kid's body, has never seen flu before.
那身体，就像孩子的身体一样，以前从未患过流感。
So every single virus and pathogen that hits it is going to elicit some amount of illness.
因此，每一种攻击它的病毒和病原体都会引发一定程度的疾病。
But then they have a very strong immune system.
但他们有非常强大的免疫系统。
It reacts and gets rid of that, with the exception of the ones that are those certain viruses and bacterias, mumps, measles, rubella, that are lethal.
它会做出反应并消除这些病毒，但某些致命的病毒和细菌、腮腺炎、麻疹、风疹除外。
And that's why we immunize, as we say.
正如我们所说，这就是我们免疫的原因。
Well, those are things that your immune system, if they get too much of those, kids will die.
嗯，这些都是你的免疫系统的东西，如果它们摄入太多，孩子就会死亡。
And so it's better to protect them with a vaccine.
因此最好用疫苗来保护他们。
All right.
好的。
So that's the front end, right?
这就是前端，对吧？
The front end has this initial immunosuppression, then just exposure to all these things that are in our environment, and you and I take on as part of our genomes.
前端有这种最初的免疫抑制，然后暴露于我们环境中的所有这些东西，你和我就成为我们基因组的一部分。
But we have to reach a detente with some of them.
但我们必须与其中一些国家达成缓和关系。
We have to get to the point where the immune system can kind of like fire back when they show up, if they're bad, and allow them to live in us if they're good with us.
我们必须达到这样的程度：当它们出现时，如果它们是坏的，免疫系统可以进行反击；如果它们对我们有好处，则允许它们生活在我们体内。
And so I think that's what's happening a lot in those first years of life.
所以我认为这就是生命最初几年经常发生的事情。
And you can see that both in the form of kids getting sick a lot, but you'll also see that their guts develop way diverse microbiome.
你可以看到，孩子们经常生病，但你也会看到他们的肠道发展出多样化的微生物组。
They allow a whole bunch of things that come in from the outside and are acceptable and are quite good for you.
它们允许一大堆从外部进来的东西，并且是可以接受的，对你来说非常有好处。
So that's the front end.
这就是前端。
And the back end of life, it's a little bit more complicated, but I'll tell you two things that I think are important.
生活的后端，有点复杂，但我会告诉你两件事，我认为很重要。
On the one hand is the fact that a lot of your cells in general become less functional, including immune cells.
一方面，您的许多细胞（包括免疫细胞）的功能总体上会降低。
And you get less cells produced, and that might just be because we were never selected as organisms to live as long as we do right now.
而且产生的细胞更少，这可能只是因为我们从未被选为能像现在这样长寿的有机体。
That's one idea of aging right here.
这就是这里的老龄化理念之一。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do we know that?
我们知道吗？
That we just were supposed to be dead by 70?
我们本来应该在 70 岁之前就死掉吗？
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Well, no, but we do know that we can reproduce and pass on our genes successfully already when we're 16.
嗯，不，但我们确实知道，当我们 16 岁的时候，我们就可以成功地繁殖和传递我们的基因。
So, the selective pressure to pass on your genes, if you imagine that's how genetic evolution happens, is that you pass on your genes as being successful.
所以，如果你想象这就是基因进化发生的方式，那么传递你的基因的选择性压力就是你成功地传递了你的基因。
You can already do that at 16, and anything after that is just cream on the crop.
你在 16 岁时就可以做到这一点，之后的任何事情都只是锦上添花。
But, at some point, maybe there's no selection.
但是，在某些时候，也许没有选择。
So we don't know that, but it's a reasonable hypothesis to say there wasn't any real selective pressure for passing on genes that do anything past when you're actually having kids.
所以我们不知道这一点，但这是一个合理的假设，即当你真正生孩子时，不存在任何真正的选择性压力来传递过去做任何事的基因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The psychologists would tell us that the wisdom of people 60, 70, 80, and beyond is useful for groups of humans that live in villages of 100 or so people because they can give information to younger-
心理学家会告诉我们，60、70、80 岁及以上的人的智慧对于生活在 100 人左右的村庄的人类群体很有用，因为他们可以向年轻人提供信息——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Right.
对。
Agreed
同意
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
people that is on the periodicity of like every five to 10 years, maybe every 30 years.
人们的周期大约是每五到十年，也许每三十年一次。
But that's a just so story.
但这只是一个故事。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
I mean, it's a nice just so story.
我的意思是，这是一个很好的故事。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
I like it, too.
我也喜欢它。
And I think the geneticists will refer to that as like the grandfather effect, where genes may be selected for, and maybe they're mostly about genes that make us social for the elderly, that they're going to have effects on the fitness of their grandchildren, which is their genes.
我认为遗传学家会将此称为祖父效应，基因可能会被选择，也许它们主要是让我们与老年人进行社交的基因有关，它们将对孙辈的健康产生影响，这就是他们的基因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
And so, I think there's something to be said for that in conceptual space.
因此，我认为在概念空间中有一些话要说。
I don't know if I can prove it to you that that's-
我不知道我能否向你证明那是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a tough experiment to do.
这是一个艰难的实验。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
It's a really tough experiment to have two villages where the grandparents are eliminated or like kept, both non-ethical and also not useful.
这是一个非常艰难的实验，让两个村庄的祖父母被淘汰或保留，既不道德，也没有用处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
But we were talking about the aging immune system, and I think there's two things that, again, come to this question that I was asking, like, who are you?
但我们谈论的是衰老的免疫系统，我认为有两件事再次涉及到我问的这个问题，比如，你是谁？
And I was saying, okay, well, in aging, you have this issue that the immune system is tapering in its efficacy, many of the cells that you've been holding your whole life start to literally die off.
我说，好吧，好吧，在衰老过程中，你会遇到这样的问题：免疫系统的功效正在逐渐减弱，你一生所拥有的许多细胞开始真正死亡。
But there's another thing, which is I think a lot of people don't realize when basic biology will say that sperm fertilizes the egg, so you've got your mom's genes and your dad's genes.
但还有一件事，我认为很多人没有意识到基础生物学何时会说精子使卵子受精，所以你拥有你妈妈的基因和你爸爸的基因。
So you've got 23 chromosomes from your mom, 23 chromosomes from your dad.
所以你有 23 条染色体来自你的妈妈，23 条染色体来自你的爸爸。
And at least when you're first born, every cell is a clone, it has exactly the same information.
至少当你刚出生时，每个细胞都是一个克隆，它具有完全相同的信息。
But DNA replication and DNA sort of like fidelity isn't perfect.
但 DNA 复制和 DNA 保真度一样并不完美。
Like they say that on your skin, the cells of your skin may have somewhere between 10,000 and 30,000 mutations per cell per day, just from like basic sun exposure.
就像他们说的，在你的皮肤上，你的皮肤细胞每天每个细胞可能会有 10,000 到 30,000 个突变，就像基本的阳光照射一样。
And that's higher than some of the other organs, but the basic idea is that your DNA is susceptible to UV radiation.
这比其他一些器官要高，但基本思想是您的 DNA 容易受到紫外线辐射。
That's one of the reasons we put on sunscreen.
这就是我们涂防晒霜的原因之一。
But what it practically means, no matter what number you put in there, whether it's 10,000 mutations per day or...
但它实际上意味着什么，无论你输入什么数字，无论是每天 10,000 个突变还是......
Remember, the genomes are huge, right?
请记住，基因组很大，对吗？
So 10,000 mutations out of terabytes of information still is only a certain number.
因此，TB 级信息中的 10,000 个突变仍然只是一个确定的数字。
But do that over years, and the main thing that that means is that every cell in your body is no longer identical to the one next to it, because this one got different mutations on day one, this one got some mutations on day two, and slowly but surely, you are becoming like a mosaic.
但多年来，这意味着你体内的每个细胞都不再与旁边的细胞相同，因为这个细胞在第一天发生了不同的突变，这个细胞在第二天发生了一些突变，慢慢地但肯定地，你变得像马赛克一样。
And I say mosaic because like the tile that you see in Morocco, very intricate designs, because if you actually start to look into tissue, you'll find that certain clones, certain mutations, do make certain cells more fit.
我说马赛克是因为就像你在摩洛哥看到的瓷砖一样，非常复杂的设计，因为如果你真正开始研究组织，你会发现某些克隆、某些突变确实使某些细胞更适合。
And they're the ones that if you scratch yourself and some new cell has to form, they might be the fittest to fill that void.
如果你抓伤自己并且必须形成一些新细胞，它们可能是最适合填补这一空白的细胞。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
And one of the other clones over here that got a different mutation may not be fit to fill that clone in.
这里的其他克隆之一具有不同的突变，可能不适合填补该克隆。
So you end up with this pastiche of who you are.
所以你最终会得到这个关于你是谁的模仿。
So now again, I ask you, who are you now?
那么现在我再问你一次，你现在是谁？
So if I want to defend against something that looks different What if everything looks different?
因此，如果我想防御看起来不同的东西，如果一切看起来都不同怎么办？
What if every cell is different from every other cell?
如果每个细胞都与其他细胞不同怎么办？
Okay.
好的。
You want another analogy?
你想要另一个类比吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I would like another analogy.
我想再打个比方。
The only exception that I can think of to this, and I could be wrong, is that our neurons, our central nervous system neurons, our brain and spinal cord, most all of them are the same ones that we were born with.
我能想到的唯一例外（我可能是错的）是我们的神经元，我们的中枢神经系统神经元，我们的大脑和脊髓，它们大多数都是我们与生俱来的。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
They're the same cells, but the DNA-
它们是相同的细胞，但 DNA-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Same cells, but so you're saying mutations are constantly accruing in the neurons as well.
相同的细胞，但你是说神经元中也不断产生突变。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
In the DNA.
在DNA中。
So it is fascinating, by the way, that neurons live that long, and hair cells, they say that the proteins in the hair cells of our ear are the same exact molecules, atoms as we had when we were born.
顺便说一句，令人着迷的是，神经元和毛细胞的寿命如此之长，他们说我们耳朵的毛细胞中的蛋白质与我们出生时的分子、原子完全相同。
So there's some cells that are long dead, but in their nuclei, the DNA that's encoding who they are, who those cells are, is subject to mutation ongoing.
因此，有些细胞早已死亡，但在它们的细胞核中，编码它们是谁、这些细胞是谁的 DNA 正在发生突变。
And it depends on how deep they are.
这取决于它们有多深。
We tend to think that one of the reasons that immune stem cells live in our bone marrows, our long bones are hollow, and in there is the source of the immune system's revitalization.
我们倾向于认为免疫干细胞存在于我们的骨髓中的原因之一是，我们的长骨是空心的，那里是免疫系统复兴的源泉。
It's the stem cells that make more white blood cells.
干细胞可以产生更多的白细胞。
We'd like to think that they live in there because it protects them from radiation.
我们认为他们生活在那里是因为它可以保护他们免受辐射。
They hang out, and the bone actually serves not only a structural purpose in our body, but it's a cavity in which things can live.
它们闲逛，骨头实际上不仅在我们的身体中起着结构作用，而且是物体可以生存的空腔。
And there's-
还有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Keep it away from solar radiation
使其远离太阳辐射
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Solar radiation.
太阳辐射。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Keep it away from chemical cues in the environment that can mutate.
使其远离环境中可能变异的化学线索。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Sequester your stem cells.
隔离您的干细胞。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
And-
还有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Don't burn them.
不要烧掉它们。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That kind of thing.
那种事。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Likewise, the neurons in the inside of the skull-
同样，头骨内部的神经元 -
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and the spinal cord-
和脊髓——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Are protected
受到保护
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
they're protected.
他们受到保护。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that's interesting.
这很有趣。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I would like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Joovv.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Joovv。
Joovv makes medical grade red light therapy devices.
Joovv 生产医疗级红光治疗设备。
Now, if there's one thing that I have consistently emphasized on this podcast, it is the incredible impact that light can have on our biology and our health.
现在，如果我在这个播客中一直强调一件事，那就是光对我们的生物学和健康产生的令人难以置信的影响。
Now, in addition to sunlight, which I've talked about a lot on this podcast, red light, near-infrared, and infrared light have been specifically shown to have positive effects on improving numerous aspects of cellular and organ health.
现在，除了我在这个播客中多次谈论的阳光之外，红光、近红外光和红外光已被具体证明对改善细胞和器官健康的许多方面具有积极作用。
These include faster muscle recovery, improved skin health, wound healing, improvements in acne, reduced pain and inflammation, improved mitochondrial function, and even improvements in vision.
这些包括更快的肌肉恢复、改善皮肤健康、伤口愈合、改善痤疮、减少疼痛和炎症、改善线粒体功能，甚至改善视力。
Nowadays, there are a lot of red light devices out there.
现在市面上有很多闯红灯的装置。
But what sets Joovv lights apart, and why they're my preferred red light therapy device, is that they use clinically proven wavelengths.
但 Joovv 灯的与众不同之处以及它们成为我首选红光治疗设备的原因在于它们使用经过临床验证的波长。
Meaning they use the specific wavelengths of red light, near-infrared, and infrared light in combination to trigger the optimal cellular adaptations.
这意味着它们结合使用特定波长的红光、近红外光和红外光来触发最佳的细胞适应。
Personally, I use the Joovv whole body panel about three to four times a week, usually for about 10 to 20 minutes per session, and I use the Joovv handheld light both at home and when I travel.
就我个人而言，我每周使用 Joovv 全身面板大约三到四次，通常每次大约 10 到 20 分钟，并且我在家和旅行时都使用 Joovv 手持灯。
If you would like to try Joovv, they're offering up to $400 off select products for listeners of this podcast.
如果您想尝试 Joovv，他们将为该播客的听众提供精选产品高达 400 美元的折扣。
To learn more, visit Joovv, spelled J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman.
要了解更多信息，请访问 Joovv，拼写为 J-O-O-V-V，.com/huberman。
Again, that's J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman.
再说一次，这是 J-O-O-V-V，.com/huberman。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Eight Sleep.
今天的节目也是八觉给我们带来的。
Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity.
August Sleep 生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。
One of the best ways to ensure you get a great night's sleep is to make sure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct.
确保您睡个好觉的最佳方法之一是确保睡眠环境的温度正确。
And that's because in order to fall asleep and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees.
这是因为为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的体温实际上必须下降约一到三度。
And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees.
为了醒来时感觉神清气爽、精力充沛，您的体温实际上必须升高约一到三度。
Eight Sleep automatically regulates the temperature of your bed throughout the night according to your unique needs.
八睡眠会根据您的独特需求自动调节整个晚上的床温。
I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for nearly five years now, and it has completely transformed and improved the quality of my sleep.
我已经睡在八睡眠床垫罩上近五年了，它彻底改变并改善了我的睡眠质量。
The latest Eight Sleep model is the Pod 5.
最新的八睡眠型号是 Pod 5。
This is what I'm now sleeping on, and I absolutely love it.
这就是我现在睡觉的地方，我非常喜欢它。
It has so many incredible features.
它有很多令人难以置信的功能。
For instance, the Pod 5 has a feature called Autopilot, which is an AI engine that learns your sleep patterns and then adjusts the temperature of your sleeping environment across different sleep stages.
例如，Pod 5有一个名为Autopilot的功能，这是一个人工智能引擎，可以学习你的睡眠模式，然后在不同的睡眠阶段调整你的睡眠环境温度。
It'll even elevate your head if you're snoring, and it makes other shifts to optimize your sleep.
如果您打鼾，它甚至会抬高您的头部，并进行其他转换以优化您的睡眠。
If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, go to eightsleep.com/huberman to get up to $350 off the new Pod 5.
如果您想尝试八睡眠，请访问八睡眠.com/huberman，新款 Pod 5 最高可享受 350 美元优惠。
Eight Sleep ships to many countries worldwide, including Mexico and the UAE.
八号睡眠船运往世界各地的许多国家，包括墨西哥和阿联酋。
Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $350.
同样，访问八睡眠.com/huberman 最多可节省 350 美元。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Sometimes I tend to think the immune system, you want to defend it like you want to defend a nation, and you want to defend it from outsiders.
有时我倾向于认为免疫系统，你想保卫它，就像你想保卫一个国家一样，你想保卫它免受外来者的侵害。
And I've just told you a story that if you want to take a political statement from it, it's pro-immigration because all these bacteria that live on us are actually bringing us goods, and they do a lot of work for us.
我刚刚给你们讲了一个故事，如果你想从中获取政治声明，那就是支持移民，因为所有这些生活在我们身上的细菌实际上都在给我们带来货物，它们为我们做了很多工作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We just lost half the audience.
我们刚刚失去了一半的观众。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
I'm sorry.
对不起。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I'm just kidding.
不，我只是开玩笑。
I'm totally joking.
我完全是在开玩笑。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
I'm sorry.
对不起。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We're a bipartisan audience.
我们是两党观众。
I'm totally joking.
我完全是在开玩笑。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Take it how you want, but-
你想怎样就怎样吧，但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm totally joking
我完全是在开玩笑
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
...
...
by analogy-
以此类推——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm joking
我开玩笑的
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
...
...
it's the argument for why certain influx of, in this case, organisms onto us create a more robust person than we were before.
这是关于为什么某些有机体（在这种情况下）涌入我们身上会创造出比以前更强壮的人的论点。
But I want to give you this story that a famous immunologist in the 1970s drew this parallel in wartime and said in World War II, submarines would be underneath the ocean, and they'd be traveling around, and if they heard another submarine, they would scuttle the missiles, the torpedoes, because that could be the enemy, and the enemy could fire at them.
但我想给你们讲一个故事，一位20世纪70年代著名的免疫学家在战时做了这样的类比，他说在第二次世界大战中，潜艇会在海底，它们会四处航行，如果它们听到另一艘潜艇的声音，它们就会击沉导弹、鱼雷，因为那可能是敌人，敌人可能会向它们开火。
And so they had two sets of books that they used.
所以他们使用了两套书。
One of them was a book that gave them the sound profile of all, let's say it's a US, of all the US submarines.
其中之一是一本书，其中介绍了所有美国潜艇的健全概况，假设这是一艘美国潜艇。
And so they could listen to the whir of the engines, and if they heard a whir of the engine that had the certain cycle of a General Motors engine, they wouldn't fire.
这样他们就可以听到发动机的呼呼声，如果他们听到具有通用汽车发动机特定周期的发动机的呼呼声，他们就不会点火。
So that's the sort of self, I know what self is.
这就是自我，我知道自我是什么。
And then they had another book that was the engine sounds of the known diesel engines of whatever engines of the German submarines.
然后他们还有另一本书，是德国潜艇的已知柴油发动机的发动机声音。
And if they heard that, then they absolutely would fire.
如果他们听到了，那么他们绝对会开枪。
And that's a self versus non-self-discrimination problem, just like the immune system has to do.
这是一个自我与非自我歧视的问题，就像免疫系统必须做的那样。
But what I bring you with it aging is this concept that as you get weirder and different and your body is getting more complex, then as those books start to have every possible, possibly every possible permutation of every biomolecule could be made by your body at that point.
但随着年龄的增长，我给你带来的是这样一个概念：随着你变得越来越奇怪、越来越不同，你的身体也变得越来越复杂，那么当这些书开始拥有每一种可能的、可能每一种生物分子的每一种可能的排列时，你的身体就可以在这一点上进行排列。
And then a virus doesn't necessarily have anything unique about it.
然后病毒不一定有任何独特之处。
A virus is also going to make proteins, and that's your immune system can see the viral proteins and say, "Oh, a new thing has come in, and that's out of range, and now I need to mount that T cell response against this.
病毒也会产生蛋白质，你的免疫系统可以看到病毒蛋白质，然后说：“哦，有一种新东西进来了，这超出了范围，现在我需要启动 T 细胞针对它的反应。
I need to bring in the troops." But with aging, we have this us diverging problem, so that this system that's supposed to sense us-
我需要调动军队。”但随着年龄的增长，我们遇到了这个我们分歧的问题，所以这个应该感知我们的系统-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
...
...
it has a lot of cosmic background, it has a lot of noise in it.
它有很多宇宙背景，里面有很多噪音。
And so I think that's one of the reasons why we also have issue when we're aging.
所以我认为这就是我们在衰老时也会遇到问题的原因之一。
And I think it's also one of the reasons why cancer is more prevalent in later life.
我认为这也是癌症在晚年更加普遍的原因之一。
There's two parts to that.
这有两个部分。
One is, of course, you've accumulated mutations in your cells that could be cancerous, but also the immune system has been seeing those and all the various different accumulations of them and ones like them over these years to the point where the weird doesn't look that weird anymore.
当然，其中之一是，你的细胞中已经积累了可能致癌的突变，但这些年来，免疫系统也一直在观察这些突变以及它们以及类似突变的各种不同积累，以至于奇怪的事情看起来不再那么奇怪了。
Something like a cancer that is different than you, it's not that much different than another cell over here that's gone, and it's just happily making skin and isn't cancerous, but it's got some differences.
就像癌症一样，它与你不同，它与这里已经消失的另一个细胞没有太大不同，它只是快乐地制造皮肤并且不会癌变，但它有一些差异。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What about the argument that there's so much cellular turnover that the cells that accumulate these mutations are being eliminated?
关于细胞更新率如此之高以至于积累这些突变的细胞正在被淘汰的论点又如何呢？
You're saying because they're clonal, they become different, they produce cells that are also different, then they die.
你是说因为它们是克隆的，所以它们变得不同，它们产生的细胞也不同，然后它们就死了。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that the way it works?
是这样的吗？
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah, and I think you are bringing something up that's also true, which is that all the time, I think the immune system is defending us against mutations.
是的，我认为你提出的观点也是正确的，那就是我认为免疫系统一直在保护我们免受突变的侵害。
So one example that everybody sees when they get to be about 40 or 50 is little these white spots in your skin.
因此，每个人在 40 岁或 50 岁时都会看到的一个例子就是皮肤上出现这些小白点。
And we think that those are places where the immune system has sensed a collection of cells that were pre-cancerous, maybe they were even beginning of cancer, and has wiped them out.
我们认为，在这些地方，免疫系统感知到了一组癌前细胞，甚至可能是癌症的开始，并将它们消灭掉。
And so a lot of the origin of cancers in skin is melanin-producing cells like melanoma, is what we call skin cancer.
因此，许多皮肤癌症的起源是产生黑色素的细胞，例如黑色素瘤，就是我们所说的皮肤癌。
Those melanocytes, that white area, they've been wiped of a whole collection of melanocytes, and that's why it's white instead of as dark as the rest of your skin.
那些黑色素细胞，那个白色区域，它们已经被清除了整个黑色素细胞集合，这就是为什么它是白色的，而不是像你皮肤的其他部分一样黑。
So to that extent, the idea that the immune system is pruning you all the time, it looks like there's pretty good evidence for that.
因此，从这个意义上说，免疫系统一直在修剪你的想法，似乎有很好的证据证明这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
And the question is, when does something become dangerous?
问题是，什么时候某些事情会变得危险？
That's fundamentally the question with cancer and these sorts of things.
从根本上来说，这就是癌症和此类问题的问题。
If you said, "I want to actually have the fittest cells in my skin to fill in a gap if I scratch myself.
如果你说：“如果我抓伤自己，我实际上希望皮肤中有最适合的细胞来填补缺口。
I would like to have cells that quickly replicate," just like maybe in kids.
我希望细胞能够快速复制，”就像孩子们一样。
Kids heal so ridiculously quickly, right?
孩子们康复得这么快，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because they have an abundance of these cells that-
因为它们有大量的这些细胞——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
I think their wound healing, there's a group out of Stanford that studies this, but essentially, wound healing in young is quite a bit faster and more efficient, and there's many levels of that.
我认为他们的伤口愈合，斯坦福大学有一个小组正在研究这个问题，但本质上，年轻人的伤口愈合更快、更有效，而且有很多层次。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's remarkable.
这很了不起。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
There's many levels of that.
这有很多层次。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
But, yeah, remarkably faster.
但是，是的，速度快得多。
And if you're a parent, you've seen this.
如果你是父母，你就会看到这一点。
You cut yourself on the same day as your kid cut yourself, and three days later, you can't even find it on them, and four weeks later, you still got a scab or something.
你在你孩子割伤自己的同一天割伤了自己，三天后，你甚至在他们身上找不到它，四个星期后，你仍然结痂什么的。
But I was just coming to the point that if you do that, you maybe want that to fill back in because certainly out in the wild, having an open wound is a bad thing, so you'd like to heal quickly.
但我只是想说，如果你这样做，你可能希望它能重新填满，因为在野外，有开放性伤口肯定是一件坏事，所以你希望尽快愈合。
Well, if a mutation has happened that fills that cell in more quickly, that is almost by definition a mutation that's let that cell divide faster.
好吧，如果发生了一种突变，可以更快地填充该细胞，那么从定义上来说，这几乎就是一种让该细胞分裂得更快的突变。
Well, what is cancer?
那么，什么是癌症？
It's cells that divide faster.
细胞分裂得更快。
So in some sense, all these events in your life where winners win by filling in the space left by cells that die is selecting for cells that get a little out of range with growth, that they may be a little bit better at growing.
因此，从某种意义上说，在你生活中的所有这些事件中，获胜者通过填补死亡细胞留下的空间来获胜，都是在选择那些稍微超出生长范围的细胞，这样它们的生长能力可能会更好一些。
And then again, the question, it's like, well, how much better do you want that?
再说一次，问题是，好吧，你想要这样更好吗？
You want it to help you, but at some point, you don't want it to basically form a lesion and grow, and go other places and grow, which is called metastasis in cancer, which is how most people die.
你希望它能帮助你，但在某些时候，你不希望它基本上形成病变并生长，然后去其他地方生长，这称为癌症的转移，这就是大多数人的死亡方式。
To me, the issue of self and non-self is one of the ones that's been with immunology for a very long time.
对我来说，自我和非自我的问题是免疫学长期以来关注的问题之一。
And again, it's way richer than we thought about, I think, in the 1990s or 2000s.
再说一次，我认为它比我们在 20 世纪 90 年代或 2000 年代想象的要丰富得多。
And then at the same time, the idea of what you can do with that information is also, I call this the new immunity.
与此同时，你可以用这些信息做什么的想法也是，我称之为新的免疫力。
Immunity used to be like a fuel gauge.
免疫力曾经就像一个电量计。
You'd say it was low for self, then it was really high against viruses, and it was like a fuel gauge.
你会说它对自我来说很低，那么对病毒来说它真的很高，它就像一个燃油表。
Now it's really hot.
现在真的很热。
And what we originally thought we were doing with cancer immunotherapy was making it just hotter generally.
我们最初认为我们对癌症免疫疗法所做的只是让它变得更热。
But now you realize that in between immune system not caring about something at all and going and releasing all its fury on something, are all these other things it can do with the information it gathers in there.
但现在你意识到，在免疫系统根本不关心某些东西和对某些东西释放所有愤怒之间，它可以利用它在那里收集的信息做所有其他事情。
And that's where I was saying, it can quarantine bacteria.
这就是我所说的，它可以隔离细菌。
It's not going to kill them.
它不会杀死他们。
It's in that zone.
就在那个区域。
Bacteria, as long as they're in the right zone, there's not too many of them, there's not too few of them, immune system can actually help them be there.
细菌，只要它们在正确的区域，它们的数量不会太多，也不会太少，免疫系统实际上可以帮助它们在那里。
It can produce things that either titters them out of circulation or keeps them there.
它可以生产出一些东西，要么让它们不再流通，要么让它们留在流通中。
In all these other settings, like you say, in the heart, and you can go to almost any organ, and the immune system is consistently present, and it's consistently measuring you.
在所有这些其他环境中，就像你说的，在心脏中，你几乎可以到达任何器官，并且免疫系统始终存在，并且它始终在测量你。
And the you, again, is this complex you.
而你，又是一个复杂的你。
It's not just what came from the egg, it's the you that's you right now, including all the mutations that you might have accrued and all the bacteria and the viruses.
这不仅仅是来自鸡蛋的东西，而是现在的你，包括你可能产生的所有突变以及所有细菌和病毒。
We have a lot of viruses in our bodies that we tend to think that at the end of a illness, that we've gone back to our pure state.
我们体内有很多病毒，我们倾向于认为疾病结束后，我们已经回到了纯净的状态。
This maybe came from religion.
这也许来自于宗教。
We were born pure, and if God made us correctly, then we would be pure at the end of things.
我们生来是纯洁的，如果上帝正确地创造了我们，那么我们在事情结束时也会是纯洁的。
And that would be pure immunity, which would purify us of things.
那将是纯粹的免疫力，它将净化我们的事物。
But the more we look, the more we find that every virus leaves a little evidence of it, a little bit of itself.
但我们观察得越多，就越发现每种病毒都会留下一点证据，一点点它自己。
And then there's the goal for the immune system to quarantine that, to say, maybe we don't want to kill every one of our cells to get rid of every virus that's infected one of our cells.
然后免疫系统的目标是隔离，也就是说，也许我们不想杀死我们的每一个细胞来清除感染我们细胞的每一种病毒。
We need to leave some of those alive.
我们需要让其中一些人活着。
Like for example, herpes virus infection infects the nerves, and when people have emergence, they get nerve pain and worse.
例如，疱疹病毒感染会感染神经，当人们苏醒时，他们会出现神经疼痛，甚至更严重。
A lot of that is caused by the immune system reacting to the virus trying to get out and then killing off neurons.
其中很大一部分原因是免疫系统对病毒做出反应，试图逃脱病毒，然后杀死神经元。
So it's immunopathology.
所以这是免疫病理学。
The immune system is causing as much of the damage and problem as the virus is, and it's the failure of that detente.
免疫系统造成的损害和问题与病毒一样多，而这正是缓和机制的失败。
And when certain viruses are just sitting in us, we're perfectly fine.
当某些病毒只存在于我们体内时，我们就完全没有问题。
We have viruses sitting around, and as long as they're laying dormant, our immune system can say, "Okay, I'm going to just hang out here, and if anything bad happens, I'm going to squelch that." But it's not like we've been purified.
我们周围有病毒，只要它们处于休眠状态，我们的免疫系统就会说：“好吧，我就在这里闲逛，如果发生任何不好的事情，我就会压制它。”但我们并没有被净化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
That's a reality that's a little bit too bad, but it's also one where you say, again, if the goal of us is to make it to 30, let's say you get an early liver infection of HCV or HPV.
这是一个有点太糟糕的现实，但你也会再次说，如果我们的目标是活到 30 岁，假设你患有 HCV 或 HPV 的早期肝脏感染。
If the immune system can just let that be, you're not going to destroy your own liver, and you'll live to produce, and your genes will get passed on.
如果免疫系统可以顺其自然，你就不会破坏自己的肝脏，你就能活着生产，你的基因也会被传递下去。
On the other hand, if you mounted a massive immune response, you went all the way in the fuel gauge to the right, your immune system can kill you.
另一方面，如果你发起了大规模的免疫反应，你的电量计一直向右，你的免疫系统就会杀死你。
It absolutely can.
绝对可以。
It can kill any cell it wants.
它可以杀死任何它想要的细胞。
So, again, that idea that the space in between is the one that we actually are starting to understand, that it has all these specialized roles that are not always about getting rid of things at all cost.
所以，再一次，我们实际上开始理解中间的空间，它具有所有这些专门的角色，并不总是意味着不惜一切代价摆脱东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This raises a question for me, and obviously I'm not an immunologist, but it seems like one-
这给我提出了一个问题，显然我不是免疫学家，但似乎是——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
You're going to be one by the end of today.
到今天结束你就会成为其中一员。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I hope so.
是的，我希望如此。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
I'm going to...
我要去...
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I like the sound of that, as will the audience.
我喜欢这种声音，观众也喜欢。
One potentially useful strategy the immune system could have, perhaps, would be rather than to decide to launch an attack on a particular cell because it's mutated and different-
免疫系统可能拥有的一种潜在有用的策略可能是，而不是决定对特定细胞发起攻击，因为它发生了突变且不同——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
enough to assess how many cells throughout the body, or even just get a local average of how many cells have similar mutations or just are different.
足以评估全身有多少细胞，甚至只是获得有多少细胞具有相似突变或只是不同的局部平均值。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So that if we are indeed born pure-
因此，如果我们确实生来纯洁——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the biological sense.
从生物学意义上来说。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's just keep it there for sake of today's discussion.
为了今天的讨论，我们就将其保留在那里。
And by time we are 32 years old, we are a mosaic of mutations-
当我们 32 岁的时候，我们已经是突变的镶嵌体了——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as it appears we are.
看来我们确实如此。
If the immune system could surveil multiple regions in the body-
如果免疫系统可以监视身体的多个区域——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
maybe compare organs or maybe keep it within organ system and say, the number of mutated cells or not pure me cells-
也许比较器官，或者也许将其保留在器官系统内，然后说，突变细胞的数量或非纯细胞的数量-
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
would be one way to do it more simply, perhaps, has exceeded a certain threshold measured.
也许是一种更简单的方法，已经超过了所测量的某个阈值。
I don't know, like enough receptors have something in them that the cell goes, "Okay, you know what?
我不知道，就像足够多的受体中含有某种东西一样，细胞会说：“好吧，你知道吗？
I'm going to fight."
我要去战斗。”
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In the same way that soldiers might hear a shot whiz by, but then do they necessarily reveal their location and launch an attack?
就像士兵可能会听到枪声呼啸而过，但他们是否一定会暴露自己的位置并发动攻击？
No.
不。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But if it's enough of an attack, they'll fight back.
但如果攻击足够，他们就会反击。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It seems like there should be some way that the immune system could quantify either body-wide or local organ, or over some period of time, they could integrate over time.
似乎应该有某种方式让免疫系统可以量化全身或局部器官，或者在一段时间内，它们可以随着时间的推移进行整合。
I have to imagine that such a mechanism exists.
我不得不想象这样的机制是存在的。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
You're coming from neurobiology, as I know, and so there is that in neurobiology of accommodation, right?
据我所知，你来自神经生物学，所以调节神经生物学中有这个，对吗？
I always tell the story of I went to this little village in France called Époisses.
我总是讲我去了法国一个叫埃普瓦塞斯的小村庄的故事。
If you know the name, Époisses is a kind of a famous cheese that they make in this town, and it's super stinky.
如果你知道名字的话，Époisses 是他们在这个小镇制作的一种著名的奶酪，而且非常臭。
And they make it only in that town, and they make a lot of it in that town.
他们只在那个镇上生产，而且他们在那个镇上生产了很多东西。
And so when you drive into that town, it's like somebody has the worst foot odor.
所以当你开车进那个小镇时，就好像有人的脚臭最严重。
It's striking.
太引人注目了。
It really hits you.
真的很打击你。
But after being in the town for like an hour-
但在城里待了大约一个小时后——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
...
...
you don't notice it.
你没有注意到它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
And that's neuronal accommodation, where your nervous...
这就是神经元调节，你的紧张...
The same kind of thing you're talking about, where the sensors in your nose can become, they're like, "Okay, I've seen it, I've seen it.
就像你所说的一样，你鼻子里的传感器可以变成，“好吧，我已经看到了，我已经看到了。
Now it's not anymore, and so I'm going to tune that out," because then your nose has the potential to smell other dangers or other stuff, right?
现在不再是这样了，所以我要把它排除在外，”因为这样你的鼻子就有可能闻到其他危险或其他东西，对吗？
So that's the nervous system.
这就是神经系统。
I think you're exactly right where you're going with this is, and we think this is true, that the immune system, for danger, it's looking for something that you would call, it's how it's seeing the signal over time.
我认为你的观点是完全正确的，我们认为这是真的，免疫系统，对于危险，它正在寻找你会调用的东西，这就是它随着时间的推移看到信号的方式。
So let's say you're a T cell that recognized a virus.
假设您是识别病毒的 T 细胞。
Well, you're looking for something that you've had nothing of before, and then all of a sudden, the virus comes in and starts replicating, and you have a lot of it.
好吧，你正在寻找一些你以前从未有过的东西，然后突然间，病毒进来并开始复制，你就拥有了很多病毒。
And then at some point, if you get rid of it, it'll come back down to next to nothing.
然后在某个时候，如果你摆脱它，它就会变得几乎为零。
And in that period, you mount an immune response, and you learn it, and so the next time around, you'll be faster to respond to it and keep you from getting sick.
在那段时间里，你会产生免疫反应，并且你会学会它，所以下一次，你会更快地对其做出反应并防止你生病。
That's one kind of signal.
这是一种信号。
But self can have either one of two signals, I think.
但我认为 self 可以有两个信号之一。
One of them is that you've had it your entire life.
其中之一是你一生都在经历这种情况。
So that amount of protein, maybe it's insulin, which we think in general it has a little bit of signal up and down as you have a trigger, but there's a range for that.
因此，一定量的蛋白质，也许是胰岛素，我们认为一般来说，当你有触发因素时，它会产生一点上下信号，但这是有一个范围的。
And so your body gets used to that range, and the T cells that see insulin, they're going to only be very low reactive to that, and there's a whole story behind that.
所以你的身体会习惯这个范围，而看到胰岛素的 T 细胞只会对此反应非常低，这背后有一个完整的故事。
But basically, they're going to see that level.
但基本上，他们会看到这个水平。
But you can also have things that the immune system is going to want to treat like self, that maybe do a slow rise.
但你也可以有一些免疫系统想要像对待自己一样对待的东西，这可能会缓慢上升。
They don't have this peak that you have with viruses.
它们没有病毒那样的峰值。
And so, like a mutant cell, and maybe it's just a tiny bit above normal for months, and then it makes two copies of itself, and now it's a little bit higher than normal.
因此，就像一个突变细胞一样，也许几个月来它只比正常值高一点点，然后它会复制自己的两个副本，现在它比正常值高一点点。
And the immune system has, I think, one of the deficits with cancer is exactly that, that things that you do, and this is sort of like I try to live my life a little bit this way, but it's not validated by any experimental stuff, is the idea that whatever you are is what the immune system is going to help you be.
我认为，免疫系统对癌症的缺陷之一就是你所做的事情，这有点像我试图以这种方式生活，但没有得到任何实验的验证，即无论你是什么样的人，免疫系统都会帮助你成为什么样的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
If it's a slow direction this way, it's going to be okay with that.
如果这是一个缓慢的方向，那就没问题了。
What it doesn't like is big spikes, and that's maybe the signal that you're asking about, could you actually get to the point where you'd be reactive?
它不喜欢的是大的尖峰，这可能就是你要问的信号，你真的能达到做出反应的程度吗？
The problem with cancer is that it is slow and it grows over time, and I think we're made to absorb slow change.
癌症的问题在于它的进展缓慢，而且会随着时间的推移而增长，我认为我们生来就需要接受缓慢的变化。
Because if it's not causing us to be sick yesterday, and a little bit more of it isn't causing us to be sick today, then it's probably just a developmental change.
因为如果它昨天没有导致我们生病，并且稍微多一点也没有导致我们今天生病，那么它可能只是一个发育变化。
Maybe it's a new bacteria, maybe it's a new-- that's commensal.
也许它是一种新细菌，也许它是一种新的——这是共生的。
So as long as it doesn't accompany-- Again, viruses have two features in common.
因此，只要它不伴随—— 再次强调，病毒有两个共同特征。
One is the spike of appearance, but they also cause damage in that window.
一种是外观上的尖刺，但它们也会对该窗口造成损坏。
And so you have these cues that I think the immune system...
所以你有这些线索，我认为免疫系统......
And I say the immune system because some cells are going to see the damage, and some cells are going to see the additional proteins that come in, and then they exchange information just like your brain.
我说免疫系统是因为有些细胞会看到损伤，有些细胞会看到进入的额外蛋白质，然后它们就像你的大脑一样交换信息。
You can talk about the fact that the brain has this wired set of cells that are wired in space.
你可以谈论这样一个事实：大脑有一组在空间中连线的细胞。
They're across your body from your brain all the way to a muscle, let's say.
比方说，它们遍布你的身体，从你的大脑一直到肌肉。
The immune system has this collection of cells that are literally crawling around us right now.
免疫系统拥有这些细胞的集合，它们现在确实在我们周围爬行。
We still do a lot of imaging.
我们仍然做了很多成像。
If you look in a piece of skin, you can see the cells.
如果你观察一块皮肤，你可以看到细胞。
The immune system are really, really surveying us.
免疫系统确实非常非常地在调查我们。
They're crawling around.
他们到处爬行。
But they get together like neurons, and they can form synapses, and one can say to another one, "This is what I saw." And the other one says, "Oh, you saw that?
但它们像神经元一样聚集在一起，可以形成突触，一个人可以对另一个人说：“这就是我所看到的。”另一个说：“哦，你看到了吗？
Well, I'm just seeing this." And they can form a cluster of cells that basically get together like a neural little mini brain in our tissue, and they can say, "This is bad.
嗯，我只是看到这个。”它们可以形成一群细胞，这些细胞基本上聚集在一起，就像我们组织中的神经小迷你大脑一样，它们可以说：“这很糟糕。
We've got to do something about that." But I think the slow burn doesn't do that.
我们必须为此做点什么。”但我认为缓慢燃烧并不能做到这一点。
The slow burn is one of the ones where the cells are like, "Yeah, it's not that bad."
缓慢燃烧是细胞会说“是的，没那么糟糕”的情况之一。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I realize this perhaps is not your immediate area of research, but recently I've been seeing a lot more interest in the thymus.
我意识到这可能不是您直接研究的领域，但最近我发现人们对胸腺更加感兴趣。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This organ that we have when we're young and it disappears as we get older, and there's-
这个器官是我们年轻时拥有的，随着年龄的增长它会消失，还有——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a lot of interest in the-
对 - 很感兴趣
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
thymus.
胸腺。
Maybe because we've never covered the thymus on this podcast in any amount of detail, if you could just educate us a bit, what it is, what it does, and why it might be interesting as a-
也许是因为我们从来没有在这个播客上详细介绍过胸腺，如果你能告诉我们一点，它是什么，它有什么作用，以及为什么它可能会很有趣——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
For therapeutic?
为了治疗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe in a few years, we'll all be banking our thymic cells.
也许几年后，我们都会储存胸腺细胞。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know some people are already injecting non-FDA-approved peptides that come from the thymus.
我知道有些人已经在注射未经 FDA 批准的来自胸腺的肽。
I'm not recommending anyone do that, but people are already doing it because that's the internet in 2026.
我不建议任何人这样做，但人们已经在这样做了，因为那是 2026 年的互联网。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
That's the fad, yeah.
这就是时尚，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's the thymus?
什么是胸腺？
What does it do?
它有什么作用？
Why this interest?
为什么有这个兴趣？
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, I can back up one step, and I've used the word T cell before.
好吧，我可以退一步，我以前用过 T 细胞这个词。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
And T cell originally was thymus cell.
而T细胞本来就是胸腺细胞。
So for those that maybe have gone to have blood taken, if you have blood taken in a hospital, whatever, you'll get red blood cells, and those are the cells that carry oxygen around your body.
因此，对于那些可能已经去采血的人来说，如果您在医院采血，无论如何，您都会得到红细胞，这些细胞是在您的身体周围携带氧气的细胞。
And then you have white blood cells that come in two flavors.
白细胞有两种类型。
Well, they come in multiple flavors, but for the moment, we'll talk about two.
嗯，它们有多种口味，但目前我们只讨论两种。
One are called B cells, and one are called T cells.
一种称为 B 细胞，一种称为 T 细胞。
And T cells were named because of the thymus.
而T细胞则因胸腺而得名。
So the thymus is this funny organ, and it has a funny history.
所以胸腺是一个有趣的器官，它有一个有趣的历史。
In fact, I'm writing these Substacks these days, and I'm writing one that's supposed to be released tomorrow about the thymus because it really should've gotten the Nobel Prize.
事实上，这些天我正在写这些子堆栈，我正在写一个关于胸腺的内容，预计明天发布，因为它真的应该获得诺贝尔奖。
There's a guy who's alive, he's 97 years old in Australia, who did this remarkable experiment.
澳大利亚有一个 97 岁高龄的人还活着，他做了这个了不起的实验。
There was this time when kids that had heart issues would come in for surgeries, and they would discover this enormous whitish organ as a growth near the heart as they were taking the body, as they were cutting open.
曾经有一次，患有心脏问题的孩子来接受手术，当他们取出尸体并切开尸体时，他们会发现这个巨大的白色器官在心脏附近生长。
And all the autopsies up to that point had been done mostly with adults.
到目前为止，所有尸检大部分都是针对成年人进行的。
And in adults, there's only this small little thing there.
而对于成年人来说，只有这个小东西。
And so they were like, "Oh my God, part of the heart thing is this overgrown thing." They didn't really know what it did.
所以他们就像，“天哪，心脏的一部分就是这个杂草丛生的东西。”他们真的不知道它做了什么。
And so they would remove it.
所以他们会把它删除。
And the kids then go home, and it was usually exploratory heart surgery, but kids would go home.
然后孩子们回家，这通常是探索性心脏手术，但孩子们会回家。
And far from dying of heart disease, many of them would die from opportunistic infections.
他们中的许多人非但不会死于心脏病，反而会死于机会性感染。
They would get all these infections.
他们会受到所有这些感染。
They'd get flu, and et cetera.
他们会得流感等等。
And so there was this hint that maybe this removal had taken out a critical part of your immune system, had made it so you were super susceptible to bacteria.
所以有这样的暗示，也许这种去除已经去除了你免疫系统的一个关键部分，使你对细菌非常敏感。
And so this guy named Jacques Miller, who's this 97-year-old codger in Australia, at the time, he was in England, and he basically took a bunch of mice, and when they were newborn, he'd remove their thymus, the same little whitish organ.
这个名叫雅克·米勒（Jacques Miller）的人，是澳大利亚的 97 岁老人，当时他在英国，他基本上养了一群老鼠，当它们新生时，他会切除它们的胸腺，同样的白色小器官。
And sure enough, those mice, they basically grew up okay, but then they all would succumb to bacterial infections.
果然，那些老鼠基本上都长大了，但随后它们都会死于细菌感染。
And in fact, a few of them even got tumors, which was kind of noted at the time but forgot.
事实上，他们中的一些人甚至患有肿瘤，当时人们注意到了这一点，但后来忘记了。
And the reason why that is, is because the thymus is the place that makes all your T cells.
之所以如此，是因为胸腺是制造所有 T 细胞的地方。
And it comes from a convoluted path, but you remember how we were talking about how the stem cells of your immune system lives in your bone?
它来自一条复杂的路径，但您还记得我们如何谈论免疫系统的干细胞如何生活在您的骨骼中吗？
Well, there are stem cells that live in their bone, and they travel through your blood to the thymus and become T cells.
嗯，骨骼中存在干细胞，它们通过您的血液到达胸腺并变成 T 细胞。
And the reason they need to do that is that the thymus is this super special place that is able to present to them, to show them all of the genes in your genome in various different ways.
他们需要这样做的原因是，胸腺是一个超级特殊的地方，能够以各种不同的方式向他们展示你基因组中的所有基因。
And so the T cells that come in there, the T cells are developing, and they each have a possible 10 to the 11th different kinds of receptors that smell different things.
因此，T 细胞进入那里，T 细胞正在发育，它们每个都可能有 10 到 11 种不同的受体，这些受体可以闻到不同的东西。
And you don't want any of these to come out that are too reactive to you.
而且您不希望出现任何对您过于敏感的内容。
So you don't want to produce T cells that are going to go off and kill your pancreas or kill your big toe or anything.
所以你不想产生会杀死你的胰腺或大脚趾或其他东西的 T 细胞。
You want to maintain tolerance.
你想保持宽容。
So you want to make sure that you don't make the immune system that's too harsh.
所以你要确保你的免疫系统不会变得过于严厉。
So this thymus has the role of producing T cells, but also of educating them in some ways, of only letting the ones that come out that have sensors that are correctly tuned to let you be you in that way.
因此，胸腺具有产生 T 细胞的作用，但也以某种方式对它们进行教育，只让那些拥有正确调整传感器的细胞出现，让你成为那样的人。
Now, to the point about the story, and you were asking about aging, is that in kids, those are really big because at that point, we were talking about the developing immune system.
现在，关于这个故事的要点，你问的是关于衰老的问题，对于孩子来说，这些真的很大，因为那时我们正在谈论正在发育的免疫系统。
It has to go from living under the veil of your mother's immunity, and then it needs to let some development happen, and then it needs to burst out and start to be able to react against whatever bacteria and viruses you're going to see over life.
它必须从生活在你母亲的免疫力的面纱下开始，然后它需要让一些发展发生，然后它需要爆发并开始能够对你一生中会看到的任何细菌和病毒做出反应。
So your thymus has this huge output, so as between really from three to six months old and into your four or five years of age, but tapering, your body makes tons of T cells.
所以你的胸腺有如此巨大的产量，所以从三到六个月大到四五岁之间，你的身体会产生大量的 T 细胞。
And it's because of probably what you're talking about.
这可能是因为你正在谈论的事情。
You're getting exposed to all kinds of different bacteria and viruses, and so you need to make that collection of immune cells that both some of them see self at low levels, but then they also can maybe react against different things in the environment, including the ones you need to defend against.
你会接触到各种不同的细菌和病毒，所以你需要建立免疫细胞集合，其中一些细胞在低水平上看到自己，但它们也可能对环境中的不同事物产生反应，包括你需要防御的那些。
Then what happens is, because again, I think we're not needing that later and maybe we don't even want that, the thymus involutes.
然后发生的事情是，因为我想我们以后不需要它，也许我们甚至不想要它，胸腺退化。
It gets super, super small, so that in aged people it's like tiny.
它变得超级非常小，所以对于老年人来说它就像很小一样。
And so it's not putting out new T cells.
所以它不会产生新的 T 细胞。
And so the reason why there's interest in like these peptides, but all these other approaches to like revitalize the thymus is that like in cancer, for example, wouldn't you like to have a whole bunch of new T cells that could come into you, flood in there with exactly the specificity for the tumor?
因此，人们对这些肽感兴趣的原因是，所有这些其他方法都可以使胸腺恢复活力，就像在癌症中一样，例如，您难道不希望有一大堆新的 T 细胞可以进入您体内，以针对肿瘤的特异性涌入其中吗？
The tumor has managed to teach all your normal cell, your other T cells in your body that it's normal.
肿瘤已经成功地告诉你所有的正常细胞，以及你体内的其他 T 细胞，它是正常的。
Maybe you need a source of new material to come in and do that.
也许你需要新的材料来源才能做到这一点。
And there's really two ways.
实际上有两种方法。
I think you mentioned you talked to Alex Marson not too long ago, and I'm sure he would've talked about engineering cells that you can engineer on the outside and give them specificity.
我想你提到不久前你和亚历克斯·马森谈过，我相信他会谈论你可以在外部设计并赋予它们特异性的工程细胞。
But the sort of like, if you will, the more natural route to them might be to let the thymus make use of more T cells and make sure that as they come out, you make sure that they can react against this tumor or whatever it is you need to defend against.
但是，如果你愿意的话，更自然的途径可能是让胸腺利用更多的 T 细胞，并确保当它们出来时，你确保它们能够对这种肿瘤或你需要防御的任何东西做出反应。
It's always been a fascinating organ from the sense that it's the origin of all the cell types that we care about, the T cells in that case.
它一直是一个令人着迷的器官，因为它是我们关心的所有细胞类型（即 T 细胞）的起源。
But it does have this like aging hit, this sort of aging effect that seems to make us a little bit more susceptible to things later in life.
但它确实有衰老的影响，这种衰老效应似乎让我们更容易受到晚年生活的影响。
And, again, we could argue about whether there was a big evolutionary design behind doing that or whether it just wasn't needed.
而且，我们还可以争论这样做背后是否有一个重大的进化设计，或者是否只是不需要。
Because if you got to 30 and you died of an arrow wound, you know, but you've given new genes.
因为如果你到了 30 岁，你死于箭伤，你知道，但你已经赋予了新的基因。
You're a winner in the evolutionary sense.
从进化意义上来说，你是胜利者。
You know?
你知道？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love this stance on, well, if you've already reproduced.
我喜欢这个立场，好吧，如果你已经复制了。
I'll just give a brief vignette.
我只提供一个简短的小插曲。
We were introduced by our mutual friend, David Feldheim, who's a phenomenal developmental biologist from-
我们是由我们共同的朋友大卫·费尔德海姆（David Feldheim）介绍认识的，他是一位杰出的发育生物学家，来自——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
He is
他是
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
UC Santa Cruz, and his wife, Sophie Salama is also a phenomenal biologist, a mutual friend.
加州大学圣克鲁斯分校和他的妻子索菲·萨拉马也是一位杰出的生物学家，也是我们共同的朋友。
And years ago, I was in Dave's lab because we are longtime collaborators and published a bunch of papers together, and, he was doing some injections.
几年前，我在戴夫的实验室里，因为我们是长期合作者，一起发表了很多论文，而且他正在做一些注射。
I'm going to get you in trouble, Dave.
我会给你带来麻烦的，戴夫。
He doesn't do this any longer.
他不再这样做了。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I'm going to join him to get you in trouble because we-
我要和他一起给你惹麻烦，因为我们——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He was doing some injections
他正在做一些注射
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
...
...
we both love you a lot.
我们都非常爱你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And he might have been using carbocyanine dyes.
他可能使用了羰花青染料。
This was kind of a conventional tool back.
这是一种传统的工具背。
You put a little crystal in a piece of tissue that's fixed tissue, so it's not a live animal or anything.
你把一点晶体放在一块固定组织中，所以它不是活体动物或任何东西。
And then you put it in the fridge, and then the fluorescent dye would label a set of neurons in a pathway.
然后你把它放进冰箱，然后荧光染料就会标记通路中的一组神经元。
And, I walked over and I saw Dave doing this, and he wasn't wearing any gloves.
然后，我走过去，看到戴夫正在这样做，而且他没有戴手套。
And I thought, "These are carbocyanine dyes."
我想，“这些是碳花青染料。”
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
With cyanide being the-
氰化物是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Cyanide being the-
氰化物是——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
The key
关键
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I said, "Dave, don't you want to put on gloves?" And he literally looked up from the microscope at me, I'll never forget, and he said, "I've already successfully reproduced." And he went back to doing it.
我说：“戴夫，你不想戴上手套吗？”他从显微镜下抬头看着我，我永远不会忘记，他说：“我已经成功繁殖了。”然后他又回去做了。
And it's his lab, so.
这是他的实验室，所以。
And everyone else was following a safety protocol.
其他人都遵循安全协议。
Don't go after him.
别去追他。
He doesn't do this any longer, folks.
伙计们，他不再这样做了。
But, there's an interesting mindset-
但是，有一个有趣的想法——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Hmm
嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
among you because he comes from cell biology.
在你们中间，因为他来自细胞生物学。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Randy Schekman's lab.
兰迪谢克曼的实验室。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You both trained in Nobel Prize winning laboratories as graduate students.
你们都在诺贝尔奖获奖实验室接受过研究生培训。
So I find it remarkable that this stance of, well, if you've already successfully reproduced, we really aren't needed.
所以我发现这种立场很值得注意，如果你已经成功复制了，我们真的不需要。
But, his kids are now graduated or in college.
但是，他的孩子们现在已经毕业或上大学了。
So there is this thing about raising the young, too.
所以养育年轻人也有这个问题。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And not just creating them and then dying.
而不仅仅是创造它们然后死去。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Agreed.
同意。
I think there's a fitness associated with being older than that.
我认为年龄越大，身体素质就越强。
And again, when I say that this, it is maybe just taking this from a purely like, what would have been the source of what we are today?
再说一次，当我这么说时，可能只是纯粹从一个类似的角度来看，我们今天的根源是什么？
What would have been the selective pressures on them?
他们面临的选择压力是什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
And it would've been a little bit like Dave is saying, the selective pressure is, for my genes to be passed on, my offspring have to be born and then have to get to some age because most humans are born pretty incapable for a period.
这有点像戴夫所说的，选择压力是，为了让我的基因得以传承，我的后代必须出生，然后必须达到某个年龄，因为大多数人生来在一段时间内相当无能力。
It's not like giraffes where they drop off and they drop out and within an hour they're running.
这不像长颈鹿，它们会掉下来，然后在一小时内就开始奔跑。
So that period of raising children, I think creates more pressure in humans to successfully be healthy longer.
因此，我认为抚养孩子的那段时期会给人类带来更大的压力，要求他们成功地保持更长久的健康。
But I guess there may be a negative viewpoint, but that concept that maybe there isn't as much pressure for you to be healthy.
但我想可能会有一种消极的观点，但这种观点认为你的健康可能没有那么大的压力。
And going with this is the idea that some of the things that we want to be super efficient early on might actually be bad for us as we get-
随之而来的想法是，我们希望尽早实现超级高效的一些事情实际上可能对我们不利，因为我们得到了-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
...
...
like, I think this issue that I brought up with our mosaics is a real confounder to everything, because that creates something that is quite hard to defend against, I think.
就像，我认为我在马赛克中提出的这个问题对一切来说都是一个真正的混淆，因为我认为这会产生一些很难防御的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
That aging backdrop.
那个老化的背景。
And some of the immune system that is really going to be important to just be super reactive early on may have some compensatory problems when faced with that new reality of a 50-year-old or 70-year-old or whatever.
当面对 50 岁或 70 岁或其他什么的新现实时，一些对于早期反应非常重要的免疫系统可能会出现一些代偿性问题。
It looks quite more complex.
它看起来相当复杂。
But you would've definitely wanted, in gene space, what genes you have to select for an immune system, let's say, or even just your body system that makes sure that you get to 30, let's say, are you.
但你肯定会想要，在基因空间中，你必须为免疫系统选择哪些基因，或者甚至只是你的身体系统，以确保你活到 30 岁，比如说，是你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
And, again, that isn't to say that we can't overcome some of those deficiencies if we understand them, but here's my plug for basic research, is that to understand them, we have to ask some questions that are almost 90% of them are going to be dead ends.
再说一次，这并不是说如果我们理解了这些缺陷，我们就无法克服它们，但这是我对基础研究的建议，即要理解它们，我们必须提出一些问题，而这些问题几乎 90% 都是死胡同。
You know, you cannot hypothesize it's one thing.
你知道，你不能假设这是一回事。
Well, you've got to do the experiment to eliminate that.
好吧，你必须做实验来消除它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
And this is one of the things that people I don't think always understand about science, is that for all the discoveries that I've made or other people have made, there are hundreds and hundreds of disappointments.
我认为人们并不总是理解科学的一件事，那就是，对于我或其他人所做的所有发现，都有成百上千的失望。
And you'll recognize this, where you just go home from the lab at the end of the day and you've done everything right, but the answer isn't the right one.
你会认识到这一点，当你一天结束从实验室回到家时，你已经做对了一切，但答案并不正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
One control experiment can nuke your whole project.
一项对照实验就可以毁掉你的整个项目。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Well, there's that.
嗯，就是这样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One good control.
一是控制得好。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
There's obviously that you have to do the experiment well and have it controlled, but the answer just could be not the one you thought.
显然，你必须做好实验并控制它，但答案可能不是你想象的那样。
And we can only imagine stuff and then try and see if it's true or more importantly, try to prove that it's not true.
我们只能想象一些东西，然后尝试看看它是否是真的，或更重要的是，尝试证明它不是真的。
And so the better experiments, we call them killer experiments, right?
所以更好的实验，我们称之为杀手实验，对吧？
The ones that kill the idea if they're wrong, if the idea is wrong, but it's killer because if it turns out the way you hope it will Again, when we get to some of these aging things, there's a lot of intuition that we all can put into this, whether we're professional scientists or at-home scientists, but it's really hard to say that intuition, like your idea about how the way the world should work is, in fact, the way the world does work.
那些如果他们错了，如果这个想法是错误的，就会扼杀这个想法，但它是致命的，因为如果结果像你希望的那样，同样，当我们遇到一些老化的事情时，我们所有人都可以投入很多直觉，无论我们是专业科学家还是家庭科学家，但很难说直觉，就像你关于世界应该如何运转的想法一样，实际上是世界运转的方式。
That I wish that because of age, certain things would happen.
我希望由于年龄的原因，某些事情会发生。
That's lovely, but it could be super, the word was baroque.
这很可爱，但也可能是超级的，这个词是巴洛克式的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
The whole system could be configured in a completely weird way that doesn't really initially make intuitive sense to us.
整个系统可以以一种完全奇怪的方式进行配置，这对我们来说最初并没有直观的意义。
And that's also why some of those discoveries are so big to us.
这也是为什么其中一些发现对我们来说如此重要。
We're like, "Oh my God, I didn't realize that this system that seems like it might be quite simple is so complicated.
我们就像，“天啊，我没有意识到这个看起来可能很简单的系统竟然如此复杂。
The world is so strange."
世界就是这么奇怪。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, when I started in neurobiology, the brain, actually the entire central nervous system, was considered an immune privileged organ.
嗯，当我开始研究神经生物学时，大脑，实际上是整个中枢神经系统，被认为是一个免疫特权器官。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There weren't supposed to be immune cells there.
那里不应该有免疫细胞。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And thanks to the beautiful work of Carla Schatz-
感谢 Carla Schatz 的精美作品——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with the major histocompatibility complex work-
与主要的组织相容性复杂的工作-
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and Ben Barres-
和本·巴雷斯-
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
And Ben Barres
还有本·巴雷斯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and I'm failing to mention all their scientific offspring, Beth Stevens, Cagla Eroglu-
我没有提及他们所有的科学后代，贝丝·史蒂文斯（Beth Stevens）、卡格拉·埃罗格鲁（Cagla Eroglu）——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and on and on.
等等。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It would take the rest of the episode to name all of Ben's scientific offspring.
要用这一集剩下的时间才能说出本的所有科学后代的名字。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And Carla's, too.
还有卡拉的。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
And being you, one of them.
而你，就是他们中的一员。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
I didn't work on those issues, but I was in those labs when it was happening.
我没有研究这些问题，但当事情发生时我就在那些实验室里。
We now know that the immune system is active-
我们现在知道免疫系统是活跃的-
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Definitely
绝对
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and alive in the central nervous system throughout the whole lifespan, serving critical roles.
并且在整个生命周期中都存在于中枢神经系统中，发挥着关键作用。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There are two things that, well, three really, that are somewhat practical questions.
有两件事，嗯，实际上是三件事，是一些实际问题。
I'll start with the most basic one.
我将从最基本的开始。
Why is it, at a mechanistic level, that if you miss a night or two of sleep, that your immune system seems so less effective in fighting off infections?
从机械层面上来说，为什么如果你错过了一两个晚上的睡眠，你的免疫系统在抵抗感染方面似乎就那么不那么有效呢？
Do we know what's happening?
我们知道发生了什么事吗？
Is it like you've got so much adenosine, which is the sleepy molecule-
是不是你有这么多腺苷，这是一种令人昏昏欲睡的分子-
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and that adenosine inhibits T cell function or something?
腺苷会抑制 T 细胞功能还是什么？
Do we actually know?
我们真的知道吗？
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because I think all of us are familiar with the fact that if we don't sleep well or enough for a couple of nights, we're much more susceptible to getting sick.
因为我认为我们所有人都熟悉这样一个事实：如果我们连续几个晚上睡眠质量不好或睡眠不足，我们就更容易生病。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is there a mechanistic understanding of why that's so?
对于为什么会这样有一个机械的理解吗？
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
I think there are bits and pieces of it.
我认为其中有一些点滴。
I think some really nice work shows that at night, when you're asleep, a few what you might have thought would be wacky things happen, and one of them is that a lot of your immune cells clear back to the bone marrow, and your tissues become populated with a bunch of neutrophils that come out of the bone marrow and seem to be depositing collagen around your body.
我认为一些非常好的工作表明，在晚上，当你睡着时，一些你可能认为奇怪的事情会发生，其中之一是你的许多免疫细胞会清除回骨髓，你的组织会充满一堆从骨髓中出来的中性粒细胞，似乎在你的身体周围沉积胶原蛋白。
And so there's a lot of things that I think are reparative about sleep.
所以我认为睡眠有很多修复作用。
I've thought about this a lot in my own life as probably you have with sleep as to, one of the questions, of course, is why do we bother to have sleep?
我在自己的生活中思考过很多这个问题，就像你对睡眠的思考一样，当然，问题之一是我们为什么要费心去睡觉？
And I guess I can only imagine it's because we've created these bodies of ours are so capable, and they're so energetically and consumptive, and they make all these byproducts during the day that at some point you just need a cleanup phase, and that's one interpretation of sleep.
我想我只能想象这是因为我们创造的这些身体是如此有能力，它们是如此精力充沛和消耗，它们在白天产生所有这些副产品，在某些时候你只需要一个清理阶段，这就是对睡眠的一种解释。
It just needs a reset.
它只需要重置。
So the immune system is definitely resetting and as I said, there's evidence that a lot of the cells go quiescent into the tissues, and they may leave you alone for those reparative processes and actually allow those.
因此，免疫系统肯定会重置，正如我所说，有证据表明许多细胞进入组织中处于静止状态，它们可能会让您独自进行这些修复过程，并且实际上允许这些过程。
In terms of the data on there, there's a lot of studies that are being done and I can't say that I've come to a conclusion about that.
就那里的数据而言，正在进行大量研究，但我不能说我已经得出了结论。
This comes into question of, is it known or do I not know it?
这就产生了一个问题：它是已知的还是我不知道的？
Or does nobody know it?
还是没有人知道？
And I'd say this might be one of these areas where about 10 factions of people know it, but they don't agree.
我想说，这可能是大约 10 个派别的人知道但他们不同意的领域之一。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
So there's variations on things, but I think the data, for example, that immune cells dive into the bone marrow at night is pretty solid.
因此，事情存在差异，但我认为数据，例如，免疫细胞在夜间潜入骨髓，是相当可靠的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That makes sense.
这是有道理的。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
What they're doing and why that's important in the long sense of what you're talking about, everything from...
他们正在做什么以及为什么从你所谈论的长远意义上来说这很重要，一切都来自......
Well, but I think it's the things that happen overnight, definitely your cognition improves.
嗯，但我认为这是一夜之间发生的事情，你的认知肯定会提高。
Is that immune or is that neuronal or both?
这是免疫性的还是神经性的，或者两者兼而有之？
I think it's both.
我认为两者都是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Something in the lymph plumbing, immune system.
淋巴管、免疫系统中的东西。
One thing that's just striking, that is undeniable, is probably the best way to put it, is everybody has bags under their eyes and looks like shit when they are sleep deprived.
有一件事是引人注目的，不可否认的，这可能是最好的说法，那就是每个人的眼袋都有，当他们睡眠不足时，看起来就像屎一样。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They sleep for a night or two and it goes away.
他们睡一两个晚上，这种感觉就会消失。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's clearly accumulation of lymph.
这显然是淋巴液的积聚。
We actually know that.
我们实际上知道这一点。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's just lymph fluid that's not being cleared, and it might not even be the brain's glymphatic clearance system.
那只是未被清除的淋巴液，甚至可能不是大脑的类淋巴清除系统。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's a bunch of lymph pooling under your eyes.
你的眼睛下面有一堆淋巴液。
That's why you look like shit.
这就是为什么你看起来像屎一样。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then you sleep for two nights well, and then you look better again.
然后你睡了两个晚上，你看起来又好起来了。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the eyes get glassy.
而且眼睛变得呆滞。
We know that the eyes get glassy when we're sleep deprived.
我们知道，当我们睡眠不足时，眼睛会变得呆滞。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's also a lymphatic clearance issue.
这也是淋巴清除问题。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is well established.
这是众所周知的。
So there's some things that are just like plumbing works better when we sleep and get up again.
所以有些事情就像当我们睡觉和再次起床时水管工作得更好一样。
There's something literally about lying down and getting up, but that to me can't explain the immune thing entirely because the lymphatic system is, among other things, immune surveillance.
从字面上看，躺下和站起来确实有一定的关系，但对我来说，这并不能完全解释免疫问题，因为淋巴系统除其他外还负责免疫监视。
But one night, lousy sleep, and the person coughing across the room-
但有一天晚上，我睡得很糟糕，房间另一边有人咳嗽——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
gets you sick-
让你生病-
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
often.
经常。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But when you're well-rested, you actually feel this robustness like, "Man, okay, I might wash my hands or just avoid them," and you're good.
但当你休息良好时，你实际上会感觉到这种稳健，就像，“伙计，好吧，我可能会洗手或者只是避免洗手，”然后你就很好了。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's an incredible effect-
这真是令人难以置信的效果——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
one way or the other.
以一种方式或另一种方式。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Again, I don't know the degree to which we can nail down which part of things that are happening is which.
再说一次，我不知道我们能在多大程度上确定正在发生的事情的哪一部分是哪一部分。
I always like the story that there's macrophages, immune cells in your eye that are basically clearing the lens.
我总是喜欢这样的故事：你的眼睛里有巨噬细胞和免疫细胞，它们基本上可以清除晶状体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
So there's all these places where it's doing little cleanup that you can imagine that if the thing it's trying to get rid of is granularity, that you need to have sleep where you just aren't making more granularity so that it can, sort of like when you wash your car windshield, you do it completely at that point.
因此，在所有这些地方，它几乎没有做任何清理工作，你可以想象，如果它试图消除的东西是粒度，那么你需要在不做更多粒度的地方睡觉，这样它就可以，有点像当你清洗汽车挡风玻璃时，你就可以在那时彻底完成它。
But you can't be driving with Fly City or you'll never clear it.
但你不能驾驶 Fly City，否则你永远无法通过它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a great analogy.
这是一个很好的类比。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
So I think there's certain elements of some of these cleanup processes that happen best when you're not getting things dirty or, again, I think a lot of what we're talking about is byproducts of our energetics that leave some damage behind it.
所以我认为，当你不弄脏东西时，这些清理过程中的某些元素会发生得最好，或者，我认为我们正在谈论的很多东西都是我们能量的副产品，会留下一些损害。
I think we just use a lot of ATP, and we do a lot of stuff as our bodies in the sleep is this time where you cannot be producing more of that and get ahead of the curve on cleaning things up a bit.
我认为我们只是使用了大量的 ATP，并且我们做了很多事情，因为我们的身体在睡眠中，此时你无法产生更多的 ATP，也无法在清理方面领先一步。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Like pulling into a gas station, cleaning off your windshield.
就像把车开进加油站，清理挡风玻璃一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。
I'm excited to share that AG1 has just launched their newest formulation, AG1 Pro.
我很高兴与大家分享，AG1 刚刚推出了他们的最新配方 AG1 Pro。
AG1 Pro takes the clinically backed AG1 formula, which is a blend of vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and adaptogens, and adds three important new ingredients, creatine monohydrate, calcium HMB, and zinc carnosine.
AG1 Pro 采用经过临床支持的 AG1 配方，该配方是维生素、矿物质、益生菌和适应原的混合物，并添加了三种重要的新成分：一水肌酸、HMB 钙和肌肽锌。
Each serving has five grams of creatine monohydrate to support muscle strength and performance, as well as brain health, calcium HMB to support muscle recovery and reduce muscle breakdown, and zinc carnosine to support and improve the lining of your gut.
每份含有 5 克一水肌酸，可支持肌肉力量和性能，以及大脑健康；HMB 钙可支持肌肉恢复并减少肌肉分解；肌肽锌可支持和改善肠道内壁。
All three of these ingredients have compelling science to support them, and therefore I love seeing them added to the existing AG1 formula.
所有这三种成分都有令人信服的科学支持，因此我喜欢看到它们添加到现有的 AG1 配方中。
As most of you know, I've been taking AG1 every day for nearly 14 years now.
正如你们大多数人所知，我每天服用 AG1 已有近 14 年了。
I started taking it long before I even knew what a podcast was.
早在我知道什么是播客之前我就开始服用它了。
It's a great product, and it's now made even better with the new AG1 Pro formula.
这是一款很棒的产品，现在新的 AG1 Pro 配方让它变得更好。
If you would like to try AG1 Pro, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1 Pro，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 获取特别优惠。
AG1 is giving away a free bottle of omega-3 coenzyme Q10 with your first subscription.
AG1 首次订阅即可免费赠送一瓶 omega-3 辅酶 Q10。
Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a free bottle of omega-3 coenzyme Q10 with your first AG1 subscription.
同样，请访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman，首次订阅 AG1 即可免费获得一瓶 omega-3 辅酶 Q10。
This thymus thing is really intriguing, and I know a lot of people who opted to bank their child's umbilical cord-
胸腺这个东西真的很有趣，我知道很多人选择储存孩子的脐带-
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the hopes that the stem cells from the umbilical cord will someday be useful.
希望脐带干细胞有一天能派上用场。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How invasive is it, and/or should we be banking thymic cells?
它的侵入性有多大，和/或我们应该储存胸腺细胞吗？
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because these seem like incredibly valuable cells for their ability to immune surveil and create kind of the perfect situation using our own endogenous T cells to battle infections.
因为这些细胞看起来非常有价值，因为它们具有免疫监视能力，并利用我们自己的内源性 T 细胞来对抗感染，创造了一种完美的环境。
I kind of wish I had a little chunk of my thymus-
我有点希望我有一小块胸腺-
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in a minus 80 freezer someplace so that when I'm 85 years old-
在某个零下 80 度的冰箱里，这样当我 85 岁的时候-
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
You might be able to expand that
你也许可以扩展它
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I might be able to exploit that.
我或许可以利用这一点。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, I'll say that the umbilical cord one is pretty straightforward.
嗯，我想说的是，脐带是非常简单的。
The umbilical cord is being essentially discarded anyway, and it contains a lot of, as you know, bone marrow stem cells that the utility of those is a little different than the thymus.
无论如何，脐带基本上都会被丢弃，正如你所知，它含有大量的骨髓干细胞，它们的用途与胸腺略有不同。
The utility of banking that material, and banking just means you put it into a small little vial with the right media, and you set it in a very cold environment for whenever you might need it.
储存该材料的实用性，储存只是意味着您将其与正确的介质一起放入一个小小瓶中，然后将其放置在非常寒冷的环境中，以备不时之需。
Is that if you need to have a bone marrow transplant, so for example, if you have a tumor of the bone marrow system, you can subject yourself to radiation and wipe out all that tumor cells, but you'll wipe out all the stem cells.
如果你需要进行骨髓移植，例如，如果你患有骨髓系统肿瘤，你可以让自己接受辐射并消灭所有肿瘤细胞，但你会消灭所有干细胞。
But if you get this vial here, you've got a little replacement.
但如果你在这里买到这个小瓶，你就有了一点替代品。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Has that ever been done successfully?
这曾经成功过吗？
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
You can do-
你可以这样做——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So are there-
那么还有——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Autologous-
自体-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are there kids that-- Are there kids or adults that are alive today because they banked their umbilical cords?
有没有孩子——有没有孩子或成年人因为储存脐带而活到今天？
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
But certainly, companies sell access to that.
但可以肯定的是，公司会出售其使用权。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, and those have to pay to keep the freezers-
好吧，那些人必须付费才能保留冰箱-
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Freezers
冰柜
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
on backup generators-
在备用发电机上-
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and things like that.
诸如此类的事情。
So people invest time and money into this idea.
因此人们投入时间和金钱来实现这个想法。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is there a walking, talking, breathing human who would be otherwise dead, would otherwise be dead, excuse me, because they paid money to bank their umbilical cord?
是否有一个会走路、会说话、会呼吸的人，否则他就会死，对不起，因为他们付了钱来储存脐带，否则他就会死吗？
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
It's a really good question.
这是一个非常好的问题。
I don't know the answer to that question.
我不知道这个问题的答案。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I guess the parents paid.
估计是父母付钱了。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
I can tell you, and this is the depths to which you're describing Dave Falta injecting a mouse, is that in mice, this is true.
我可以告诉你，这就是你所描述的戴夫·法尔塔（Dave Falta）给老鼠注射的深度，在老鼠身上，这是真的。
That if you take bone marrow stem cells, you can reconstitute a mouse with a blood cancer, and you can do that.
如果你采用骨髓干细胞，你就可以重建患有血癌的老鼠，你可以做到这一点。
I'm sure you can do it in humans, too.
我相信你也可以在人类身上做到这一点。
I have zero doubt that it also works.
我毫不怀疑它也有效。
I don't know whether those companies have done that.
不知道那些公司有没有这么做。
That's just actually something where I-
这实际上就是我——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because this-
因为这个——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
...
...
whole of my knowledge
我的全部知识
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
this is offered en masse now.
现在这是集体提供的。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you want to keep the umbilical cord?
你想保留脐带吗？
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Honestly, I would do it because it's one of those situations where if it's not too...
老实说，我会这样做，因为这是一种情况，如果不是太......
Well, I don't know.
嗯，我不知道。
It depends on how much money you have to spend, because the cost is not-
这取决于你要花多少钱，因为成本不是-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Assuming it's within-
假设它在——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the noise.
噪音。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So it's one of those ones where you, particularly when you have kids, there's this whole aspect of I would like to protect them from anything that could come their way, and I think this would.
所以这是其中之一，特别是当你有孩子的时候，我想保护他们免受任何可能发生的事情的影响，我认为这会的。
If they happen to have a childhood leukemia, this would cure it.
如果他们碰巧患有儿童白血病，这就能治愈它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is an incredible statement if you think about it.
如果你仔细想想，这是一个令人难以置信的说法。
Even if it hasn't been done successfully yet.
即使还没有成功。
You didn't say it might be able to lead to a cure-
你并没有说它可能能够治愈——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
by virtue of a new technology.
凭借一项新技术。
You said it would cure it.
你说它能治愈它。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a big statement.
这是一个很大的声明。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can tell I'm ratcheting up from sleep to banking thymus and umbilical cord.
你可以看出我正在从睡眠状态逐渐进入储存胸腺和脐带的状态。
Now I'm going to go to the sort of next level, which is not just in the Bay Area.
现在我要进入下一个层次，这不仅仅是在湾区。
A lot of people, however, are starting to think about, "Oh, maybe I make some induced pluripotent stem cells from a fibroblast from one of my skin cells, put the so-called Yamanaka factors on, revert that to stemness, and then I might be able to grow a new pancreas or study my whatever organs in the so-called organoids or-
然而，很多人开始思考，“哦，也许我可以用我的一个皮肤细胞的成纤维细胞制造一些诱导多能干细胞，加入所谓的山中因子，将其恢复为干细胞，然后我也许能够生长出一个新的胰腺，或者在所谓的类器官中研究我的任何器官，或者——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
whatever they're referred to.
无论他们提到什么。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I learned today from you that if I take that fibroblast now, that fibroblast might not be completely Andrew Huberman as I know him to be genetically.
但我今天从你那里得知，如果我现在取出该成纤维细胞，该成纤维细胞可能不完全是安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman），因为我从基因上知道他是这样的。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It actually could have some mutations.
它实际上可能有一些突变。
That seems important to compare against a sort of standard cell.
与某种标准单元相比，这似乎很重要。
I don't want to grow organoids from an IPS environment that carries mutations.
我不想在带有突变的 IPS 环境中培养类器官。
That seems like a bad idea.
这似乎是个坏主意。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because then anything I would...
因为那时我会做任何事...
I'm not talking about transplanting in those organoids.
我不是在谈论移植那些类器官。
I'm talking about studying them, thinking I'm getting information about them.
我正在谈论研究它们，认为我正在获取有关它们的信息。
People are doing this.
人们正在这样做。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And thinking, "Oh, I'm seeing what drugs are effective in treating a liver disease or a heart disease." But if those are mutant cells, that's a lousy experiment.
并想：“哦，我正在看看什么药物可以有效治疗肝脏疾病或心脏病。”但如果这些是突变细胞，那就是一个糟糕的实验。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I wouldn't say they're likely to be mutant cells for that reason.
出于这个原因，我不会说它们可能是突变细胞。
I think the biggest question would be whether your induction of them to become the organ that you want was successful, was replicating the actual organ itself.
我认为最大的问题是你诱导它们成为你想要的器官是否成功，是否复制了实际的器官本身。
So you're referencing these things called organoids, which are collections of cells from a body, a human, for example, that are induced with various different factors to grow to resemble maybe an organ, a particular organ.
所以你指的是称为类器官的东西，它们是来自身体（例如人类）的细胞的集合，这些细胞被各种不同的因素诱导成长为类似于一个器官，一个特定的器官。
I think all of us have little doubt, and this is the source of the California Institute for Regenerative Medicine, that making stem cells that can become particular organs will at someday happen.
我想我们所有人都毫无疑问，这是加州再生医学研究所的来源，有一天会发生使干细胞能够成为特定器官的事情。
We will figure all these things out.
我们会解决所有这些问题。
And I believe in science.
我相信科学。
I believe in our ability to sort of test, learn, test, learn, test, learn.
我相信我们有能力测试、学习、测试、学习、测试、学习。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
How soon that becomes useful is a bigger question.
它多久才能发挥作用是一个更大的问题。
If you take out your fibroblasts today, that might only cure you someday in the future.
如果你今天取出你的成纤维细胞，也许将来有一天就能治愈你。
And meanwhile, you may die of that thing that you wish you had the stem cells, I mean, because it's not yet ready, the technology and the understanding isn't yet ready.
与此同时，你可能会死于你希望拥有干细胞的事情，我的意思是，因为它还没有准备好，技术和理解还没有准备好。
But the other problem with those is you probably will die of something else, or you'll get hit by a car.
但另一个问题是你可能会死于其他原因，或者你会被车撞到。
It won't help you that you've got those things banked.
你把这些东西存入银行对你没有任何帮助。
So I think in some of these cases, over-emphasizing, this might be your point about the storage of umbilical cords, is at what point is that a high odds situation where your kid needs it and you have it stored away, versus all the other things, fates that can befall us as humans that have nothing to do with stem cells from the bone marrow.
所以我认为在某些情况下，过分强调，这可能是你关于脐带储存的观点，在什么时候你的孩子需要它而你把它储存起来的可能性很高，与所有其他事情相比，我们人类的命运与骨髓干细胞无关。
And to me, that's a point where you could spend your life worrying about how you're going to die, and maybe that's not a good way to live.
对我来说，到了这个阶段，你可能会花一生的时间担心自己将如何死去，也许这不是一个好的生活方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, it's certainly not how I live.
嗯，这当然不是我的生活方式。
Right now there's a lot of kind of excitement and attention around so-called longevity and-
现在人们对所谓的长寿充满了兴奋和关注，而且——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
at the extremes of never dying or living to be 120, which seems to be perhaps the genetic limit currently.
永远不死或活到 120 岁这两个极端，这似乎是目前的基因极限。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not my fascination.
这不是我的魅力。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm more interested in living in the years I've got-
我对活在我所拥有的岁月里更感兴趣-
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as it seems you are, too.
看来你也是。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Healthy living.
健康生活。
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Vital, healthy, being able to move, sense, and think-
充满活力、健康、能够移动、感知和思考——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it seems like.
看起来像。
And remember.
请记住。
Those seem like the critical ones.
这些似乎是关键的。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
And a moment ago you mentioned the concept of removing a bit of thymus, and I think that the issues for me with that are it's an invasive surgery, and if you were to take out thymus, it's not clear to me that it's the thymus that you need.
刚才你提到了切除一点胸腺的概念，我认为对我来说问题是这是一种侵入性手术，如果你要切除胸腺，我不清楚这就是你需要的胸腺。
In fact, you can make thymic...
事实上，你可以让胸腺...
So the thymus is both the cells that come into it from the bone marrow, so as an organ, it has contents.
所以胸腺是从骨髓进入胸腺的细胞，所以作为一个器官，它有内容物。
But its structure are some thymic epithelial cells, a kind of cell that make a matrix that all those cells live in, and they get educated in.
但它的结构是一些胸腺上皮细胞，一种形成所有这些细胞都生活在其中并接受教育的基质的细胞。
And there's definitely pretty strong work that says that you can create a sort of a thymic epithelium that will do some of this work.
肯定有相当有力的工作表明你可以创建一种胸腺上皮来完成其中的一些工作。
But whether a guy at home could hold onto the thymic cells, and we would be in a position to do something important for longevity in our lifetime, I don't know.
但我不知道家里的一个人是否可以保留胸腺细胞，而我们是否能够在我们的一生中做一些对长寿重要的事情。
I just don't know.
我只是不知道。
And I think that's true of a lot of these things.
我认为很多事情都是如此。
Say, oh, we seem to be right on the cusp right now, for example, in cancer therapy, we've been on the cusp for 10 or 15 years of these things called CAR-Ts, Alex will have told you about these, where you engineer your T cells and you give them special receptors that can get them to go in to eliminate tumors.
比如说，哦，我们现在似乎正处于风口浪尖，例如，在癌症治疗方面，我们已经在 CAR-T 的风口浪尖上工作了 10 或 15 年，Alex 会告诉你这些，你对你的 T 细胞进行改造，你给它们特殊的受体，可以让它们进入消除肿瘤。
But for whatever reason, they haven't worked in patients.
但无论出于何种原因，它们都没有在患者身上发挥作用。
They haven't worked.
他们还没有工作。
And T cell, the immune system gets turned off.
T 细胞、免疫系统被关闭。
These cells don't make it.
这些细胞无法生存。
They fail to eliminate the tumor.
他们未能消除肿瘤。
We will figure that out, but we've been thinking we'd figure it out sort of for five or 10 years, and that gets frustrating.
我们会解决这个问题，但我们一直认为我们会解决这个问题五年或十年，这让人沮丧。
And I think it gets frustrating for people that are waiting for it, too, on the outside like, "Why can't you solve this?" And you're like, "Well, because the universe isn't always configured how we think it is." And that's discovery.
我认为，对于那些在外面等待的人来说，这也会令人沮丧，比如“你为什么不能解决这个问题？”你会说，“好吧，因为宇宙并不总是按照我们想象的方式配置。”这就是发现。
That's the problem of discovery.
这就是发现的问题。
If we knew what we needed to do, we would engineer it and it would work.
如果我们知道需要做什么，我们就会设计它并且它会起作用。
But we don't.
但我们不这样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
This is an important discussion that we haven't spent enough time on in this podcast that I think is very important for people to hear.
这是一个重要的讨论，我们在这个播客中没有花足够的时间，我认为这对人们来说非常重要。
And I have some thoughts about it, but I'd love for any disagreements.
我对此有一些想法，但我很乐意接受任何不同意见。
I'm not looking for just agreements, but-
我不只是寻求协议，而是——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
so my observation from a couple decades or more doing science and then mainly shifting to podcasting, but this is what I do.
所以我的观察是几十年或更长时间从事科学研究，然后主要转向播客，但这就是我所做的。
I talk with great scientists.
我与伟大的科学家交谈。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So that's the podcast.
这就是播客。
So I'm very immersed in what's happening right at the cutting edge and because of great guests like you.
因此，由于像您这样的伟大客人，我非常沉浸在最前沿发生的事情中。
My sense is that in every field, there's been this kind of steady pressure, like water on rock pressure, like okay, we're going to understand, like salamanders regenerate.
我的感觉是，在每个领域，都存在这种稳定的压力，就像水对岩石的压力，好吧，我们会理解的，就像蝾螈的再生一样。
Wouldn't it be great if we could do that, too?
如果我们也能做到这一点，岂不是很好？
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Cut off a limb, it could grow back.
砍掉肢体，还能长回来。
Okay, amazing.
好吧，太棒了。
I think it's like Eli Tanaka's work has just shown that.
我认为 Eli Tanaka 的作品刚刚表明了这一点。
You're like, "Wow, this would be incredible for amputees and brain regeneration and-"
你会想，“哇，这对于截肢者和大脑再生来说真是不可思议，而且——”
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But then it never really transfers.
但它永远不会真正转移。
So we're like, oh, we're going to figure out ways to get genes into cells.
所以我们想，哦，我们要找到将基因导入细胞的方法。
We're going to electroporate liposomes.
我们要电穿孔脂质体。
We're going to use calcium phosphate.
我们将使用磷酸钙。
Great research tools.
很棒的研究工具。
Tons of things happen.
发生了很多事情。
And it's like we're going to modify genes, zinc-finger nuclease, all this.
就像我们要修改基因、锌指核酸酶等等。
Okay, CRISPR, boom.
好吧，CRISPR，繁荣。
And one thing just breaks through and goes so much further.
有一件事刚刚突破并走得更远。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And even though the ethics are questionable, there are babies that have deliberately induced gene alterations with CRISPR, sickle cell anemia treatments as well-
尽管道德值得怀疑，但还是有一些婴儿故意用 CRISPR 诱导基因改变，还有镰状细胞贫血治疗——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is a more benevolent example, but then the person who went rogue and just kind of did this in humans in China.
这是一个更仁慈的例子，但后来那个人变得无赖，在中国的人类身上做了这种事。
But CRISPR just kind of broke through it all.
但 CRISPR 却突破了这一切。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The excitement about stem cells led to even initiatives at the legislative level and all these labs working on things.
对干细胞的兴奋甚至导致了立法层面的倡议和所有这些致力于干细胞研究的实验室。
And then, as you said, it's kind of like run up against the dam.
然后，正如你所说，这有点像撞上大坝。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I feel like in 10 years, some or all of that information will be extremely relevant when, boom, one thing will just leap out of bacteria or grasshoppers, no pun intended with the grasshoppers.
但我觉得十年后，当细菌或蚱蜢中突然出现一种东西时，部分或全部信息将变得非常相关，这对蚱蜢来说不是双关语。
But the last example would be for years it was like the country's getting fatter.
但最后一个例子是多年来这个国家变得越来越胖。
The country's getting obese.
这个国家正在变得肥胖。
What are we going to do?
我们要做什么？
Do calories matter?
卡路里重要吗？
Of course calories matter, this kind of thing.
当然，卡路里很重要，这种事情。
Laws of thermodynamics still apply.
热力学定律仍然适用。
And then all of a sudden This freaking Gila monster biologist-
然后突然间这个该死的希拉毒蜥生物学家——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
tells people what they already knew because the GLPs were already being used as a drug, just not at significantly high levels.
告诉人们他们已经知道的事情，因为 GLP 已经被用作药物，只是含量不高。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And all of a sudden, we have a imperfect but very important, more or less, dare I say, cure-
突然之间，我们有了一个不完美但非常重要的治疗方法，我敢说，或多或少——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for obesity.
对于肥胖。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's got problems.
它有问题。
There's muscle wasting, there could be other issues, apathy, et cetera.
有肌肉萎缩，可能还有其他问题，冷漠等等。
I'm not trying to discount any of that.
我并不是想贬低其中任何一个。
But I feel like that's the way science works.
但我觉得这就是科学的运作方式。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's like steady pressure, steady pressure, steady pressure, frustration, and something comes out of nowhere, and it almost seems prerequisite to have all those years of frustration and failure.
就像持续的压力、持续的压力、持续的压力、挫折感，不知从何而来，而这似乎是经历这些年的挫折和失败的先决条件。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you say, "Well, couldn't we have just gotten CRISPR first or the GLPs first?
你会说：“好吧，我们不能先获得 CRISPR 或先获得 GLP 吗？
Why did we go through all these billions of dollars of expenditures, time, energy?"
为什么我们要花费数十亿美元的开支、时间和精力？”
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know.
我不知道。
I feel like there's some natural order to this, and I just would like your thoughts on it.
我觉得这有一些自然的顺序，我只是想听听你对此的看法。
I feel like it's necessary but not sufficient to have lots and lots and lots of failures.
我觉得有很多很多的失败是必要的，但还不够。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And I think it's necessary, absolutely necessary, to study things that are just, at some point, curiosities.
我认为有必要，绝对有必要研究一些在某种程度上只是好奇心的东西。
And that sounds like science is about trivia, but you gave a good example, clip one.
这听起来像是科学是关于琐事的，但你举了一个很好的例子，剪辑一。
Somebody was just curious as to why Gila monsters, the feature was that Gila monsters can go into dormancy for 10 months, not eat, and then come out.
有人只是好奇为什么吉拉毒蜥，特点是吉拉毒蜥可以休眠10个月，不吃东西，然后就出来了。
And how do they manage that?
他们是如何做到这一点的？
And so that was just like, what is that?
所以这就像是，那是什么？
What causes that?
是什么原因造成的？
CRISPR.
CRISPR。
People were studying, how do bacteria defend against other bacteria?
人们在研究，细菌是如何防御其他细菌的？
Well, they use this.
嗯，他们用这个。
It turns out there's this enzyme, and it remembers the sequence of this one bacteria that has come and invaded you before and then can modify the genome and get rid of it and kill it.
事实证明，有这种酶，它会记住以前入侵过你的这种细菌的序列，然后可以修改基因组，摆脱它并杀死它。
Well, that same enzyme then, which we now use for all this human engineering, came out of a basic, how do bacteria defend themselves?
好吧，我们现在用于所有人类工程的同一种酶，来自于细菌如何保护自己？
It's not anything about modifying sickle cell anemia.
这与改变镰状细胞性贫血无关。
It was about how does the world work.
这是关于世界如何运作的。
My career is exactly as long as the lifespan of this field we call cancer immunotherapy.
我的职业生涯与我们称之为癌症免疫治疗的这个领域的寿命一样长。
I did the first immunotherapy experiment.
我做了第一个免疫治疗实验。
I injected a mouse with an antibody that I had made.
我给小鼠注射了我制备的抗体。
It was against molecules on T cells.
它针对的是 T 细胞上的分子。
And I'd shown already in the lab that that molecule caused the T cells to get more activated when you blocked it.
我已经在实验室中证明，当你阻断该分子时，它会导致 T 细胞更加活跃。
And we did a series of other mouse experiments of all kinds of diseases, and it kept jamming up the T cells.
我们还对各种疾病进行了一系列其他小鼠实验，它不断堵塞 T 细胞。
And then Jim, my PhD, said, "We got some tumors in the fridge." And so we set up that experiment, and injected this antibody, and the tumors melted.
然后我的博士吉姆说：“我们冰箱里有一些肿瘤。”所以我们进行了实验，注射了这种抗体，肿瘤就融化了。
Well, that was the start of cancer immunotherapy.
嗯，这就是癌症免疫疗法的开始。
That's the origin-
这就是起源——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is the experiment for which, let's just be direct here-
这就是实验，让我们直接在这里 -
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
your advisor won the Nobel Prize.
你的导师获得了诺贝尔奖。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Did you at least get to attend the ceremony?
你至少参加了仪式吗？
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, well, that was-
哦，好吧，那是——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah, so it was a little thing
是的，所以这是一件小事
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
this is how science works, folks.
伙计们，科学就是这样运作的。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Got to-
必须——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Doesn't matter who did the experiment.
谁做实验并不重要。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It matters what lab you're in.
你在哪个实验室很重要。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
You got to go to the after-parties were good.
你必须去参加余兴派对，这很好。
But I guess, and I'll take you back.
但我想，我会带你回去的。
We weren't trying to cure cancer when we started this.
当我们开始这项工作时，我们并没有试图治愈癌症。
The thesis project, when I went into Jim, this was my mentor at that point, the discussion was like, "Well, there's some molecules on T cells." And I said we knew from AIDS and a few other things that T cells were important, so that was the attraction, even though you had people say, "Why would you do immunology?" Well, they seem to be interested.
在论文项目中，当我找到吉姆时，他是我当时的导师，讨论的内容就像是，“好吧，T 细胞上有一些分子。”我说我们从艾滋病和其他一些事情中知道 T 细胞很重要，所以这就是吸引力，即使你有人说，“你为什么要做免疫学？”嗯，他们似乎很感兴趣。
And there was a molecule, and it was like, "Well, yeah, let's just see what it does." And once you saw you could turn things off, then everything became possible, right?
有一个分子，就像，“好吧，是的，让我们看看它能做什么。”一旦你看到你可以把东西关掉，那么一切都变得可能了，对吗？
Now you suddenly have an immune system that you could dial up.
现在你突然有了一个可以拨打的免疫系统。
You could say, "Well, if I could dial up, what will happen to vaccination?" Well, it got better.
你可以说，“好吧，如果我可以拨打电话，疫苗接种会怎样？”嗯，情况好转了。
What will happen to multiple sclerosis?
多发性硬化症会发生什么？
The disease got worse.
病情变得更严重了。
What will happen to cancer?
癌症会发生什么？
Ooh, we can start to have an effects on it.
哦，我们可以开始对其产生影响了。
And the X-ray.
还有X光片。
The people were studying physics, and then it turns out to be that they were like, "Oh, I can measure bone." And that's how we use X-rays now.
人们正在研究物理学，然后结果是他们说，“哦，我可以测量骨骼。”这就是我们现在使用 X 射线的方式。
So there's all these examples that everything, the big things often come from these orthogonal directions, and then we realize what it might mean.
因此，所有这些例子表明，一切、大事往往都来自这些正交方向，然后我们意识到这可能意味着什么。
And I think you have to start there.
我认为你必须从这里开始。
Otherwise, you'll just plow this direction, and you'll hit those walls because you don't have the workaround that comes with some orthogonal piece of information.
否则，你只会朝这个方向努力，然后就会碰壁，因为你没有一些正交信息带来的解决方法。
Orthogonal meaning at right angles, right?
正交的意思是直角，对吗？
So again, CRISPR came from bacteria, but it's really useful in us as an engineering tool.
再说一遍，CRISPR 来自细菌，但它作为一种工程工具对我们来说确实很有用。
But we wouldn't have known that if somebody hadn't been out there sort of saying, "Okay, well, how do bacteria do it?
但如果没有有人说“好吧，细菌是怎么做到的？”，我们就不会知道这一点。
How do they defend themselves?" Oh, they use this enzyme.
他们如何保卫自己？”哦，他们使用这种酶。
And I think that's a really important message that dispels this idea that everything is sort of basically just easy for us to engineer.
我认为这是一个非常重要的信息，它消除了这样一种想法，即一切对于我们来说基本上都很容易设计。
Yes, once you have the CRISPR tool, it becomes actually kind of easy to do some really cool things with it, and it's still creative.
是的，一旦你有了 CRISPR 工具，用它做一些非常酷的事情实际上变得很容易，而且它仍然具有创造性。
But the fundamental leap that you're describing, I don't think in many of those cases that people were kind of conceiving when they were in the first dregs of doing it, that this would become an industry.
但你所描述的根本性飞跃，我认为在很多情况下，人们在刚开始做这件事时并没有想到这会成为一个行业。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
This would become a whole thing.
这将成为一个整体。
And maybe that's important because you need to foster that.
也许这很重要，因为你需要培养这一点。
If everybody always thought they were doing it to build a company and sell a product or something, then I don't think we would do the things that get us new.
如果每个人总是认为他们这样做是为了建立一家公司并销售产品或其他东西，那么我认为我们不会做那些让我们焕然一新的事情。
That's all kind of what we already know.
这就是我们已经知道的一切。
That's human knowledge.
这就是人类的知识。
We want to build human knowledge, and to build human knowledge, we got to go off-piste.
我们想要建立人类知识，而为了建立人类知识，我们必须走出滑雪道。
You can't ski on the slope.
你不能在斜坡上滑雪。
You got to be in the trees, and maybe you'll bonk your head a bunch of times.
你必须在树上，也许你会撞到很多次头。
I think that's the reality, and it's like you got a lot of people out there that have decided to do that for a life because it's a chance to solve a puzzle.
我认为这就是现实，就像有很多人决定一生都这样做，因为这是解决难题的机会。
It's like there's puzzles about how the world works.
这就像关于世界如何运作的谜题。
And if you've ever done a jigsaw puzzle with your family, there's always like the, oh, you get in, and especially in the end, you're like, what pieces come together to do it?
如果你曾经和家人一起玩过拼图游戏，你总是会想，哦，你进去了，尤其是最后，你会想，哪些部分组合在一起才能完成？
I think that's what makes this whole science thing really fun.
我认为这就是整个科学事情真正有趣的原因。
That's the reward is that you get the puzzle piece in, and you're like, "Oh, it makes sense.
这就是奖励，就是你把拼图放进去，然后你会想，“哦，这是有道理的。
That now I know what I've been building.
现在我知道我一直在建造什么了。
I've been building this puzzle." And then you go back, and you do it again because that's really satisfying at the end of it, even though, again, with the family puzzle, the first parts are so hard.
我一直在构建这个谜题。”然后你回去，再做一遍，因为最后真的很令人满意，尽管家庭谜题的前一部分是如此困难。
Thousand pieces, and maybe you find the edge.
几千块，也许你就能找到优势。
But the intervening, where there's all clouds, super hard.
但中间全是云，非常困难。
And I think that is what science is a lot about, is doing that and then realizing what the picture is.
我认为这就是科学的意义所在，就是这样做，然后意识到图片是什么。
What is that picture of it?
那张图片是什么？
And then all the brakes are off.
然后所有刹车都关闭。
I often tell people that if an experiment you'll do in lab has a 10% chance of yielding anything interesting, you got to do at least 10 to even meet fundamental stats.
我经常告诉人们，如果你在实验室做的实验有 10% 的机会产生有趣的结果，那么你就必须至少做 10 次才能满足基本统计数据。
You actually have to do quite a few more.
实际上你还需要做很多事情。
So that's where it's not a cost-effective thing.
所以这并不是一件划算的事情。
It's really difficult to be a scientist because there's no quid pro quo.
成为一名科学家真的很困难，因为没有交换条件。
There's nothing to say if you put in five hours, that you'll get five units of goodness, of knowledge out of it.
没有什么可说的，如果你投入五个小时，你就会从中获得五个单位的善意和知识。
A lot of times you get zero.
很多时候你会得到零。
But then sometimes you put five and you get 500.
但有时你投入 5 个，就会得到 500 个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
And those are the jackpot moments where you're like-
那些是中大奖的时刻，你会这样——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's like life.
这就像生活。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
It's like life.
这就像生活。
It really is.
确实如此。
It's like-
这就像——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I have to say-
我不得不说——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
anyone who's considering a PhD, we had a call in from audience recently, and someone said they're finishing graduate school.
对于任何正在考虑攻读博士学位的人，我们最近接到了观众的电话，有人说他们即将完成研究生学业。
Should they go the research route?
他们应该走研究路线吗？
They want to do a postdoc.
他们想做博士后。
And I'm like, "Yes, yes, and yes." Rather than answer publicly, I decided to just have a call with this individual-
我说：“是的，是的，是的。”我没有公开回答，而是决定与此人通电话-
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because it's a rather niche question.
因为这是一个相当小众的问题。
But, also just in training your reward system to work for five years on something-
但是，也只是训练你的奖励系统在某件事上工作五年——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is so valuable, especially in this day and age.
是如此宝贵，尤其是在当今时代。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because everything else feels like it comes at warp speed.
因为其他一切感觉都以惊人的速度发生。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It clicks.
它发出咔嗒声。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And to just put steady pressure on something with all the failures and all the things, and then to finally complete something, a lot of people think it'll be underwhelming.
不断地对某件事施加压力，经历所有的失败和所有的事情，然后最终完成某件事，很多人认为这会让人印象深刻。
I think quite the opposite.
我认为恰恰相反。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's like anyone that's done a triathlon or-
就像任何参加过铁人三项比赛的人一样，或者——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Well, yeah
嗯，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
raised a kid or done anything, you're like, "Oh, my goodness."
抚养一个孩子或做了任何事情，你会说，“哦，天哪。”
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that never ends, right?
这永远不会结束，对吧？
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's nothing better than these long-term investments.
没有什么比这些长期投资更好的了。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Nothing.
什么也没有。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
When they break through, your analogy, when you break through that dam, or when you realize sometimes that you've broken through the dam.
当它们突破时，你的比喻是，当你突破那座大坝时，或者当你有时意识到你已经突破了大坝时。
That's one of the funny things about, I think, science, and maybe it's true in triathlons and stuff too, where you've realized that you've all of a sudden got somewhere.
我认为这是科学的有趣之处之一，也许在铁人三项赛和其他运动中也是如此，你突然意识到自己已经取得了进步。
You-
你——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I haven't done a triathlon, so I have to be fair.
我没有参加过铁人三项，所以我必须公平。
Rob, our producer sitting-
罗布，我们的制作人坐在 -
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Has done
已完成
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to our left, he has done many Ironmans.
在我们左边，他完成了许多铁人三项比赛。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And he has that mindset-
他有这样的心态——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of just steady pressure.
只是稳定的压力。
His relationship to work and effort is remarkable because he burns so little energy worrying about things that we refer to as in the left column, like the stuff you can't impact, and just-
他与工作和努力的关系非常出色，因为他很少花精力去担心我们在左栏中提到的事情，比如那些你无法影响的事情，而且只是——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
focusing on what you can impact.
专注于你可以影响的事情。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so a lot of it is about learning energetic control.
所以很多都是关于学习能量控制。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Doing science, that is, or anything is about what not to think about, what to force yourself not to do-
做科学，也就是说，或者任何事情都是关于不去想什么，强迫自己不做什么——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or think about.
或者想想。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If I may, I'd like to shift us to this very interesting area of immunology and biology, which you refer to as spatial biology.
如果可以的话，我想把我们转移到免疫学和生物学这个非常有趣的领域，你称之为空间生物学。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm going to pose a question that may or may not fit with-
我将提出一个可能适合也可能不适合的问题——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
this framework, but either way, I'd like you to educate us on it.
这个框架，但无论如何，我希望你能对我们进行教育。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Go.
走吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm fascinated by these old barbaric experiments in medicine.
我对这些古老而野蛮的医学实验很着迷。
Wonderful book, by the way, folks, is "The Prince of Medicine" about Galen, if you ever want to learn about how we learned about medicine back when it was truly barbaric.
顺便说一句，伙计们，如果你想了解当医学还很野蛮的时候我们是如何学习医学的，这本书就是一本关于盖伦的《医学王子》。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was surgeries done on warriors and without anesthesia.
这是对战士进行的手术，没有麻醉。
And we've known for a long time that if somebody, God forbid, has a finger lopped off or a hand lopped off, that it might actually be a worthwhile investment to make an incision in the gut and stuff that thing in the gut to keep it warm and keep the tissue viable for regeneration once you try and put it back on.
我们很早就知道，如果有人（上帝禁止）被砍掉了一根手指或一只手，那么在肠道上做一个切口并将其塞进肠道以保持温暖并在您尝试将其放回去时保持组织可再生实际上可能是一项值得的投资。
Turns out that's true.
事实证明这是真的。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Is that true?
这是真的吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, there's a bunch of juicy stuff in the gut that maybe it's the warmth, maybe it's the immune system.
是的，肠道里有一堆多汁的东西，也许是温暖，也许是免疫系统。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe it's the lack of infection from being inside as opposed to outside the body.
也许这是因为体内与体外相比缺乏感染。
Who knows?
谁知道？
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Gut, you mean the intestine, or you mean the stom-
Gut，你的意思是肠道，或者你的意思是胃-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Within the stomach
胃内
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
...
...
stomach.
胃。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
The stomach itself.
胃本身。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I'm not suggesting anyone do this experiment.
我并不是建议任何人做这个实验。
As I started reading into this, I discovered that there are a lot of really cool experiments, not just in limb or tissue preservation and restoration.
当我开始阅读本文时，我发现有很多非常酷的实验，不仅仅是在肢体或组织的保存和修复方面。
Like for instance, I've talked many times on this podcast about the fact that above the roof of our mouth, we have this small cluster of neurons, a suprachiasmatic nucleus, organizes the circadian rhythms of every cell in our body, from the genetic to the transmitter level, peptides, et cetera.
例如，我在这个播客中多次谈到这样一个事实：在我们的上颚上方，我们有一小群神经元，即视交叉上核，组织我们体内每个细胞的昼夜节律，从遗传到递质水平、肽等。
Keeps us sleep-wake cycles, does all the organization that we need-
保持我们的睡眠-觉醒周期，我们需要的所有组织-
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for circadian rhythms.
对于昼夜节律。
So much so that you can take just one subpopulation of these neurons, the calbindin expressing suprachiasmatic nucleus neurons.
如此之多以至于你只能取这些神经元的一个亚群，即表达钙结合蛋白的视交叉上核神经元。
It's like 5% of the total neurons in this already tiny cluster of neurons, and you can transplant them pretty much anywhere, and certainly in the brain, and you'll restore the circadian rhythm of an arrhythmic animal.
它相当于这个已经很小的神经元簇中总神经元的 5%，你可以将它们移植到几乎任何地方，当然也可以移植到大脑中，这样你就可以恢复心律失常动物的昼夜节律。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So that tells you a lot of cool things.
这告诉你很多很酷的事情。
It says, okay, there's probably something that's secreted or...
它说，好吧，可能有什么秘密或......
But these cells are that important, and it doesn't really matter where they are-
但这些细胞是如此重要，它们在哪里并不重要——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Hmm
嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
at least in the brain.
至少在大脑中。
They can do what they need to do, which is super cool.
他们可以做他们需要做的事情，这太酷了。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then I started reading about, oh, you could actually take perhaps a little bit of pancreatic tissue and stuff it under the skin-
然后我开始读到，哦，你实际上可以取一点胰腺组织并将其塞到皮肤下-
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Into your Encapsules.
进入你的胶囊。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and that's not ideal, but-
这并不理想，但是-
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you get some function back.
你会恢复一些功能。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I'm fascinated by this because we like to think that the organization of our organs is so critical.
所以我对此很着迷，因为我们喜欢认为我们器官的组织是如此重要。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But maybe they just need to be there.
但也许他们只是需要在那里。
Now, no one should test this hypothesis unless they have to, but when we think about the immune system-
现在，除非必要，否则没有人应该检验这一假设，但是当我们考虑免疫系统时——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Hmm
嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you described the function of the thymus beautifully.
您完美地描述了胸腺的功能。
You talked about the bone marrow, but you also talked about the massive migration of these cells that are working in this network.
您谈到了骨髓，但您也谈到了在该网络中工作的这些细胞的大规模迁移。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How important is spatial compartmentalization of these cells, or is the rule eliminate spatial compartmentalization in order to make the immune system function at its best?
这些细胞的空间分区有多重要，或者规则是否消除了空间分区以使免疫系统发挥最佳功能？
And there's a very specific practical question-
还有一个非常具体的实际问题 -
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Okay
好的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for which I'm asking this, but I'm just going to tuck that away to pique people's interest, and I'll get to it.
我问这个是为了这个，但我只是想把它藏起来以激起人们的兴趣，然后我就会开始讨论它。
But this is relevant to important decisions that we make-
但这与我们做出的重要决定有关-
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I believe.
我相信。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Well, the answer is yes and yes.
嗯，答案是肯定的。
It's both.
两者都是。
So although I described the immune system in the earlier part of this discussion as super migratory and hitches a ride in the blood, gets into tissues, it travels through your lymphatics.
因此，尽管我在本次讨论的前面部分将免疫系统描述为“超级迁移”，并且会在血液中搭便车，进入组织，但它会通过淋巴管传播。
There are these things called lymph nodes, down to lymphatic tubing, which for those who don't know, lymphatics are like drainage.
有些东西叫做淋巴结，一直到淋巴管，对于那些不知道的人来说，淋巴管就像排水管。
It's how you drain the fluid back out of your tissue.
这就是将液体从组织中排出的方式。
So although there's this mass migration of cells, there's also even just in T cells, there's T cells that lodge in particular settings, and they act to protect that tissue, and they're resident cells of those tissues.
因此，尽管存在大量细胞迁移，但甚至仅存在于 T 细胞中，T 细胞驻留在特定环境中，它们的作用是保护该组织，并且它们是这些组织的常驻细胞。
They never leave.
他们永远不会离开。
And so both are true, that you have parts of your immune system that are protective or nurturing of particular areas, and then there's ones that are circulating and can hit any spot.
所以两者都是正确的，你的免疫系统有一部分可以保护或培育特定区域，然后还有一些正在循环并且可以攻击任何部位。
Going back to your idea of organs and such being moved, I think there's two components to that that you might be thinking about.
回到您对器官及其移动的想法，我认为您可能会考虑两个组成部分。
One of them is the question of whether the organ can survive in the new space.
其中之一是器官能否在新空间中生存的问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Does it have the growth factors and the blood flow and the lymphatic outflow and maybe even some neuronal activity that makes that tissue work?
它是否具有生长因子、血流和淋巴流出，甚至可能有一些使该组织发挥作用的神经元活动？
So that's where if you take the pancreas, you can famously put it underneath the kidney capsule.
因此，如果你取出胰腺，你可以把它放在肾囊下面。
A kidney has kind of like a skin around it.
肾脏有点像它周围的皮肤。
You can tuck some pancreatic cells in there, and they're super happy.
你可以把一些胰腺细胞塞进去，它们会非常高兴。
They love that.
他们喜欢这样。
They get all the blood flow they need, and it seems to be just right for them.
他们获得了所需的所有血液流动，而且这似乎正好适合他们。
But if you've got somebody with diabetes, for example, and you try to put new pancreatic cells in anywhere in their body, the immune system will attack it, just as it did the first.
但是，例如，如果某人患有糖尿病，并且您尝试将新的胰腺细胞放入他们体内的任何位置，那么免疫系统就会攻击它，就像它对第一个细胞所做的那样。
Diabetes, for those who don't know, type 1 diabetes, is caused by the immune system that gets too active against the pancreas.
对于那些不知道的人来说，糖尿病是 1 型糖尿病，是由免疫系统对胰腺过于活跃而引起的。
It's autoimmunity.
这是自身免疫。
It's where it's now saying the pancreas is not self, it's something foreign, and it wipes it out.
现在它说胰腺不是自己的，它是外来的东西，并且它把它消灭了。
And that's the source of what I said earlier, your immune system can be quite dangerous.
这就是我之前所说的，你的免疫系统可能非常危险。
So when you talk about this concept of spatial, there's a few things to bring in.
因此，当您谈论空间概念时，需要引入一些内容。
One is, can the organ get what it needs?
一是，器官能得到它需要的东西吗？
And then does the immune system accept it in some ways in that environment?
那么免疫系统在该环境中是否会以某种方式接受它？
And that's where some of your immune system that lives spatially in certain areas is going to be very defensive against whatever it's specific against in that area, but may not care what's happening elsewhere, because those cells just aren't...
这就是你的一些免疫系统，居住在某些区域的空间中，会对该区域特定的任何东西具有很强的防御能力，但可能不关心其他地方发生的事情，因为这些细胞只是不......
It's not like the brain, where if I do something here, it's sensed in my brain.
它不像大脑，如果我在这里做某事，我的大脑就会感觉到。
The immune system, if the cells don't migrate, they don't have really a lot of ways to communicate.
免疫系统，如果细胞不迁移，它们就没有很多交流方式。
They can hitch some signals on neurons, and that's a really interesting thing we could talk about, the capacity for your brain and the insular cortex.
它们可以在神经元上传递一些信号，这是我们可以谈论的一件非常有趣的事情，即大脑和岛状皮层的容量。
There's a great set of stories emerging about how your insular cortex can program your immune state into organs and can, via the vagus, can essentially program immune states.
有很多关于岛状皮层如何将免疫状态编程到器官中的故事，并且可以通过迷走神经从本质上编程免疫状态。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
By levels of calm or stress, or by thoughts themselves?
是通过平静或压力的程度，还是通过想法本身？
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Well, the latter one is the one that gets me super excited about the possibility that you could have triggers for thoughts.
嗯，后一种让我非常兴奋，因为你可能会触发思考。
So the insular cortex, as I understand it, it's a source of some of our moral decision-making.
因此，据我所知，岛叶皮层是我们一些道德决策的来源。
It's also thought to be the part of our brain where if you cut your hand and I see it bleeding, I can feel it in my hand.
它也被认为是我们大脑的一部分，如果你割伤了你的手，我看到它流血，我就能感觉到它在我的手上。
I go, "Oh, ow." It can sense and it sense each other's pain.
我说：“噢，噢。”它能感觉到，也能感觉到彼此的痛苦。
It's a set that this very nice Israeli group, Roy's lab, did this very nice study where they induced into the guts of mice inflammatory bowel disease.
这是一个非常好的以色列团队，罗伊的实验室，做了一项非常好的研究，他们在小鼠的肠道中诱导了炎症性肠病。
They fed them a really kind of weird sugar that causes the bowel to puncture, and then they get a really bad stomach ache.
他们给它们喂了一种非常奇怪的糖，这种糖会导致肠子刺破，然后它们就会胃痛得很厉害。
Not stomach ache, inflammatory bowel disease, diarrhea.
不是胃痛、炎症性肠病、腹泻。
And in that period, they used what threads are, so they marked for the crowds, they used a way to mark all the neurons that were firing during that period in the insular cortex.
在那个时期，他们使用了线程是什么，所以他们为人群进行了标记，他们使用了一种方法来标记岛状皮层中那个时期所有放电的神经元。
And then later, they could fire them, after the mouse had recovered.
然后，等老鼠康复后，他们就可以开枪了。
And they saw evidence that the immune system was resetting up itself in the gut as if it had just been punctured.
他们发现有证据表明免疫系统正在肠道中进行自我重置，就像刚刚被刺穿一样。
And the cues for that, in that case, were a drug, but we know that we can cue the insular cortex, like me watching you do things.
在这种情况下，暗示是一种药物，但我们知道我们可以暗示岛叶皮质，就像我看着你做事一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
So it's made me wonder whether some of the things we smell cut grass and we can instantly take us back to a whole bunch of thoughts about how we were-
所以这让我想知道，我们闻到的一些东西是否会立即让我们回想起我们过去的样子——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
...
...
when we were kids and maybe even make you feel a little like that, whether there's aspects to this to which our-
当我们还是孩子的时候，甚至可能让你有一点像那样的感觉，是否有一些方面我们——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
...
...
ability of our thoughts to control that region are going to be revealed to have potential that you could train yourself to bring up an immune state in a particular tissue.
我们的思想控制该区域的能力将被揭示，您可以训练自己在特定组织中调出免疫状态。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
And just so we make sure everyone's on board what you just described, because there's a lot there.
正是为了确保每个人都同意您刚才描述的内容，因为那里有很多内容。
If I understand correctly, we know that the nervous system can do contextual learning.
如果我理解正确的话，我们知道神经系统可以进行情境学习。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like if an animal or human-
就像动物或人类一样——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
let's just keep it to humans-
让我们把它留给人类吧——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
gets shocked, scared, or traumatized in a given region.
在特定区域感到震惊、害怕或受到创伤。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or even I've had friends visit San Francisco and get their cars broken into and their computers stolen.
或者甚至我有朋友访问旧金山时，他们的汽车被闯入，电脑被盗。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can develop a context-dependent or place-dependent memory where you kind of don't like San Francisco as much, even though the rest of the trip was awesome.
您可能会形成一种与环境相关或与地点相关的记忆，其中您不太喜欢旧金山，尽管旅行的其余部分很棒。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a pretty broad interpretation.
这是一个相当宽泛的解释。
Or you have a great experience someplace.
或者你在某个地方有过很棒的经历。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you actually really love San Francisco because you met your future spouse there.
你实际上真的很喜欢旧金山，因为你在那里遇到了你未来的配偶。
You just had a particularly awesome experience there.
您刚刚在那里度过了一次特别棒的经历。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Even if it was just in one part, you might feel better about your computer getting stolen anyway.
即使只是一部分，您的计算机被盗可能会感觉更好。
Okay.
好的。
Insula seems like a, let's take the positive example.
岛岛看起来像一个，让我们举个正面的例子。
Let's keep it positive for a moment.
让我们暂时保持积极的态度。
I think what you're describing is that if we remember the positive thing, if there was a positive immune status associated with that-
我认为你所描述的是，如果我们记得积极的事情，如果有与之相关的积极的免疫状态-
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Certainly with that
当然是这样
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the immune system is also part of that contextual memory.
免疫系统也是情境记忆的一部分。
And so merely by recalling the positive or negative, but in this case, positive memory, we recall not just the memory, but also the body state, and the body state includes the immune status that accompanied the positive or negative event.
因此，仅仅通过回忆积极或消极的事情，但在这种情况下，积极的记忆，我们不仅回忆起记忆，还回忆起身体状态，而身体状态包括伴随积极或消极事件的免疫状态。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
That's what these studies are starting to emerge in.
这就是这些研究开始出现的内容。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
That's cool.
这很酷。
That's really cool.
这真的很酷。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because we've heard for so long that we know that chronic stress impedes immunity.
因为我们早就听说慢性压力会阻碍免疫力。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We also know that acute stress boosts it.
我们还知道，急性压力会加剧这种情况。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that's something that, with all due respect to my colleagues who've focused on the ill effects of chronically elevated cortisol, the immune-enhancing effects of acute cortisol and stress are really important.
恕我直言，我的同事们一直关注皮质醇长期升高的不良影响，但急性皮质醇和压力的免疫增强作用确实很重要。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think they've been overlooked.
我认为他们被忽视了。
But I love this because one of the problems/luxuries that I have is I sit sort of at the interface between real science and biology and what most people perceive as complete nonsense wackiness.
但我喜欢这个，因为我遇到的问题/奢侈之一是我处于真正的科学和生物学之间的界面，而大多数人认为这是完全无意义的古怪行为。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But more and more, we're finding that within the complete nonsense wackiness, there are kernels of truth.
但我们越来越发现，在完全无稽之谈的古怪中，也有真理的内核。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like that you can actually meditate your way into a better state, which helps serve your immune system, and so on and so on.
就像这样，你实际上可以通过冥想进入更好的状态，这有助于为你的免疫系统服务，等等。
And that's seeming less and less wacky, even outside California-
即使在加州以外的地方，这似乎也越来越不古怪了——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because of studies like the one you described.
因为像你所描述的那样的研究。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
One of my friends who's a faculty, Dan Levitin at NYU, we were talking about the same study, and he was like, "That may be what meditation is doing." Because it may be allowing your brain to communicate and reset less inflammatory states-
我的一位朋友，纽约大学的丹·莱维汀（Dan Levitin），是一名教师，我们正在谈论同一项研究，他说：“这可能就是冥想的作用。”因为它可能会让你的大脑进行交流并重置较少的炎症状态 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
...
...
across your body because of this axis.
因为这个轴而穿过你的身体。
And the study was really, I think there's still work to be done, but the fundamentals of it was in the actual event, there were certain cells that would accumulate in there.
这项研究确实，我认为还有工作要做，但它的基本原理是在实际事件中，某些细胞会在那里积累。
And then in the induced event, when you made the brain fire again of this mouse, you would see not as profound, but you saw this evidence of these same sorts of cells accumulating there as if they're ready for that inflammation.
然后在诱导事件中，当你再次让这只老鼠的大脑放电时，你会看到不那么深刻，但你看到这些相同类型的细胞在那里积累的证据，就好像它们已经准备好应对炎症一样。
And I think what we're talking about is the idea that you could have that go both directions, and that
我认为我们正在讨论的是你可以双向使用的想法
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Again, the concept of, I'm sure you've talked about this before, of meditation, where the idea is that it's one of the ways you can control your autonomous nervous system is through your breath.
再说一次，我相信你之前已经讨论过冥想的概念，其中的想法是，它是你控制自主神经系统的方法之一，就是通过你的呼吸。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
That happens with meditation.
冥想会发生这种情况。
I think that to me, there's something intuitive about that.
我认为对我来说，这有一些直觉。
But I just an hour ago warned you about the problem of science being intuitive, that some things that make-- They sort of make a great story in our minds that don't turn out to be true.
但就在一个小时前，我警告过你们科学的直觉性问题，有些事情在我们的脑海中编造了一个伟大的故事，但结果却并非如此。
But the data on this insular cortex thing is starting to look like it's a real thing.
但有关岛状皮层的数据开始看起来像是真实存在的。
Like there's a real connection between some of the peripheral states and like regions of the brain.
就像一些外围状态和大脑的类似区域之间存在真正的联系一样。
And however those are triggered now, maybe again, I've often thought, well, maybe when you're healthy, you should smell like mint.
不管这些现在被触发，也许再次被触发，我经常想，好吧，也许当你健康时，你应该闻起来像薄荷。
And then when you want to be healthy again, like, there's kind of crazy thoughts.
然后当你想再次健康时，就会有一些疯狂的想法。
But again, there's an element of that that's intuitive, too, where we say, "Oh, that seems to be the case.
但同样，其中也有一个直观的因素，我们会说，“哦，似乎是这样。
My mom makes me a comfort meal." Is it really the meal settling in or is it just the sensations that make me feel like less stressed in one sense- Mm-hmm ...
我妈妈给我做了一顿舒适的饭菜。”这真的是一顿安顿下来的饭菜，还是只是一种感觉让我在某种意义上感觉压力减轻了——嗯嗯……
but maybe also to this point in literally resetting your tissue?
但也许也到了这一步，从字面上重置你的组织？
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Function.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 Function。
Function provides over 160 advanced lab tests to give you a clear snapshot of your bodily health.
功能提供超过 160 项高级实验室测试，让您清晰了解自己的身体健康状况。
This snapshot gives you insights into your heart health, your hormone health, autoimmune function, nutrient levels, and much more.
通过此快照，您可以深入了解心脏健康状况、激素健康状况、自身免疫功能、营养水平等。
They've also recently added access to advanced MRI and CT scans.
他们最近还增加了先进的 MRI 和 CT 扫描的访问权限。
Function not only provides testing of over 160 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, it also analyzes these results and provides recommendations for improving your health from top doctors.
Function 不仅提供对您身心健康至关重要的 160 多种生物标记物的测试，还分析这些结果并提供顶级医生改善您健康的建议。
For example, in a recent test with Function, I learned that some of my blood lipids were slightly out of range.
例如，在最近的一次 Function 测试中，我发现我的一些血脂稍微超出了范围。
As a result, I decided to start supplementing with nattokinase, which can naturally help reduce LDL cholesterol, and it did.
因此，我决定开始补充纳豆激酶，它自然可以帮助降低低密度脂蛋白胆固醇，而且确实如此。
In a follow-up test, I could confirm that this strategy worked.
在后续测试中，我可以确认这个策略是有效的。
My blood lipids are now back exactly where I want them.
我的血脂现在完全回到了我想要的水平。
Comprehensive lab testing of the sort that Function offers is just so important for health.
Function 提供的全面实验室测试对于健康非常重要。
How else are you going to know what's going on under the hood?
否则你怎么知道幕后发生了什么？
And while I've been doing blood work for years, it used to be time-consuming, complicated, and expensive.
虽然我从事血液检查已有多年，但它过去非常耗时、复杂且昂贵。
In fact, I used to spend thousands of dollars per year trying to get this kind of data, and the data, frankly, were not all that good.
事实上，我曾经每年花费数千美元试图获得此类数据，但坦率地说，这些数据并不那么好。
But now with Function, it's extremely easy and affordable.
但现在有了 Function，它变得非常简单且经济实惠。
A Function membership is only a dollar a day, $365 a year.
Function 会员每天仅需 1 美元，每年 365 美元。
And if you think about the information it provides and the health challenges it helps you avoid and the proactive things that it can do for you to enhance your health, I truly look at it as a savings.
如果您考虑一下它提供的信息、它可以帮助您避免的健康挑战以及它可以为您增强健康所做的积极主动的事情，我确实将其视为一种节省。
To learn more, visit functionhealth.com/huberman and use the code Huberman for a $50 credit towards your membership.
要了解更多信息，请访问 functionhealth.com/huberman 并使用代码 Huberman 获得 50 美元的会员积分。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman.
同样，这是 functionhealth.com/huberman。
I'm always struck by extremes of personality, but in both directions.
我总是被极端的个性所震惊，但是双向的。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
So there are these people who just say, like, "I don't get sick." Mm-hmm.
所以有些人只是说，“我没有生病。”嗯嗯。
And they don't get sick, and it's super frustrating- Mm-hmm ...
而且他们没有生病，这真是太令人沮丧了——嗯嗯……
because I'm not one of these people that's very sickly, but I occasionally get like a sniffle or a cold or something.
因为我不是病得很重的人之一，但我偶尔会流鼻涕或感冒之类的。
Less and less with each year because I do feel I pay more attention to the sleep piece- Mm-hmm ...
一年比一年少，因为我确实觉得我更注重睡眠部分——嗯嗯……
certainly than I did when I was a graduate student, postdoc, or junior professor.
当然比我当研究生、博士后或初级教授时更是如此。
Yeah.
是的。
But there does seem to be this quote unquote "positive," or let's just call it a reinforced mindset- Mm-hmm ...
但似乎确实有这句话没有引用“积极的”，或者我们就称之为强化心态——嗯嗯……
as opposed to like an immune reinforcement associated with the mindset.
而不是像与心态相关的免疫强化。
Because some people will say, like, "I just always get sick," and I believe them.
因为有些人会说，“我总是生病”，我相信他们。
They always seem sick.
他们总是看起来生病了。
But it could be that you get sick in a given environment once, and then you just decide that you're sickly.
但也有可能你在某个特定的环境中生病了一次，然后你就决定自己生病了。
So then it could be that the immune system is listening to these thoughts, but not in the form of words.
因此，免疫系统可能正在聆听这些想法，但不是以言语的形式。
I think this is where it gets hokey for people.
我认为这就是人们变得做作的地方。
Like real biologists and physicians are like, "Yeah, you got to be kidding me." Because immune cells don't listen to thoughts, they listen to brain states.
就像真正的生物学家和医生一样，“是的，你一定是在跟我开玩笑。”因为免疫细胞不听思想，而是听大脑状态。
Triggers of some sort.
某种触发器。
Triggers of some sort, right?
某种触发器，对吧？
Yeah.
是的。
And then as humans, we have this obsession with language that makes it seem like you can write affirmations, and then it's the word content.
然后作为人类，我们对语言有这种痴迷，这使得你看起来可以写出肯定语，然后就是单词内容。
But it's the feeling state associated with that, that- Probably does ...
但这是与此相关的感觉状态，可能是……
at a biological level, makes total sense.
在生物学层面上，这是完全有道理的。
Yeah.
是的。
So we were talking about spatial biology and the fact that you can tuck some pancreas in the kidney, and unless someone has type 1 diabetes- Mm-hmm ...
所以我们谈论的是空间生物学以及你可以将一些胰腺塞进肾脏的事实，除非有人患有 1 型糖尿病 - 嗯嗯......
a lot of the functions of the pancreas can- Can still function ...
胰腺的很多功能仍然可以发挥作用...
can persist or transplantation of these clock neurons.
可以持续或移植这些时钟神经元。
And clearly there are limits to this, but in the context of the immune system, I'm wondering, can we take a little bit of thymic tissue, bank it, and then just later put it in a slow-release capsule under our skin of our hand?
显然这有其局限性，但在免疫系统的背景下，我想知道，我们是否可以取一点胸腺组织，将其储存起来，然后将其放入手部皮肤下的缓释胶囊中？
And that might sound crazy, but I have friends, one of whom might be at Neuralink now, who actually embedded a little radio receiver under his hand to be able to open his locks at his home- Yeah ...
这听起来可能很疯狂，但我有朋友，其中一个现在可能在 Neuralink，他们实际上在手下嵌入了一个小型无线电接收器，以便能够打开他家的锁 - 是的......
and his car, and his wife might have one also.
和他的车，他的妻子可能也有一辆。
And that might sound really Bay Area, like future tech, kind of wacky biohacking.
这听起来可能真的是湾区，就像未来的科技一样，有点古怪的生物黑客。
Yeah.
是的。
But if I knew that I could be much healthier by taking a few thymic cells in a sterile capsule and sliding it under the skin.
但如果我知道，通过将一些胸腺细胞放入无菌胶囊中并将其滑入皮下，我可以变得更健康。
People get their ears pierced with- Right.
人们在耳朵上打洞——对。
...
...
less invasive procedures.
侵入性较小的手术。
Why not?
为什么不呢？
Well, the question is is that likely to work?
好吧，问题是这可能有效吗？
You remember how we were just talking about if I do 10 experiments, one might work.
你还记得我们刚才说过，如果我做 10 个实验，其中一个可能会起作用。
Yours isn't a bad idea, but it's more than likely one of the nine out of 10, I would guess.
你的想法不错，但我猜这很可能是十分之九之一。
Sure.
当然。
But is there a correlate from any studies on animals?
但对动物的研究是否存在相关性呢？
We know that in a lot of studies of cancer and tumors, I used to see these mice down in the vivarium.
我们知道，在许多癌症和肿瘤研究中，我曾经在动物园里看到过这些小鼠。
They would slide tumors under the skin- Yep ...
他们会将肿瘤滑到皮肤下——是的……
and study them.
并研究它们。
Yeah.
是的。
And give animals drugs or give animals stuff.
并给动物药物或给动物东西。
Very common, yeah.
很常见，是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Tumors are happy to thrive in novel environments.
肿瘤很乐意在新的环境中茁壮成长。
Sure.
当然。
Yeah.
是的。
So why wouldn't healthy cells?
那么为什么健康细胞不能呢？
No, I think you can.
不，我想你可以。
I think one of the things that comes into play a little bit about that's more about replacing an organ with one that might be better is that at some point if you come in...
我认为，其中一个更重要的事情是，用一个可能更好的器官替换一个器官，在某个时候，如果你进来……
So one of the challenges of tissue engineering is if you want to bring in new genes
所以组织工程的挑战之一是如果你想引入新基因
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
The vector, the material, the surrounding, whether you bring it using a virus to bring it into those cells that you're going to now put into the person, whether it's a virus or a small piece of DNA called plasmid, you effectively are giving that a new bit of identity.
载体、材料、周围环境，无论你是用病毒将其带入你现在要放入人体的细胞中，无论是病毒还是一小段称为质粒的 DNA，你实际上都在赋予它新的身份。
And when you go to transplant that organ back in, it's seen as foreign.
当你把那个器官移植回去时，它会被视为外来的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
And it's just like you just put an infected cell in you.
这就像你刚刚将一个受感染的细胞放入你体内一样。
As far as the immune system knows, all of a sudden, there's a cell with a huge number of new things being expressed, and some of them viral, literally.
据免疫系统所知，突然间，有一个细胞表达了大量新事物，其中一些是病毒性的。
So, that represents an issue, I think, when we talk about any kind of engineering at the moment is if you engineer a system to be maybe better, the immune system isn't necessarily going to want better.
所以，我认为，这代表了一个问题，当我们现在谈论任何类型的工程时，如果你设计一个系统可能更好，那么免疫系统不一定会想要更好。
And so you have to overcome this issue of tolerance maybe at the same time.
所以你必须同时克服宽容的问题。
And again, that's why that particular experiment, depending on what you're putting under the kidney capsule or whatever, it matters what the immune state is and what that thing is as to whether your immune system's going to let it fly.
再说一遍，这就是为什么那个特定的实验，取决于你在肾囊下放的东西或其他什么，免疫状态是什么以及你的免疫系统是否会让它飞翔的东西是什么很重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not considering doing this.
我不考虑这样做。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know how old you are, but I can guess based on some mutual friends we have.
我不知道你多大了，但我可以根据我们共同的朋友来猜测。
But I'm guessing that a lot of people who are able to understand speech, they're old enough to understand speech, are thinking that in our lifetime, we are going to be able to use our own cells or peptides or synthetic versions of peptides from our own cells and so forth to overcome a lot of the issues that our parents and grandparents were not able to overcome.
但我猜想，很多能够理解语言的人，他们的年龄足以理解语言，都认为在我们的有生之年，我们将能够使用我们自己的细胞或肽或来自我们自己细胞的肽的合成版本等等来克服许多我们的父母和祖父母无法克服的问题。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
With regards to the peptide side of things, and even the cells, and this is maybe where you're going with space, is that context does matter for the immune system.
关于事物的肽方面，甚至细胞，这可能是你在空间中要去的地方，环境对免疫系统确实很重要。
And it matters for all biological systems.
这对所有生物系统都很重要。
I'll just give you an example.
我给你举个例子。
We did a study of wound healing some years ago, and if you have a wound in a mouse that's maybe just a...
几年前我们做了一项关于伤口愈合的研究，如果老鼠身上有伤口，那可能只是……
If you ever have a melanoma removed, they do a punch biopsy.
如果您切除了黑色素瘤，他们会进行穿刺活检。
It's a little circle.
这是一个小圆圈。
So you can do that in the back of a mouse, and then you can watch the wound healing happen.
所以你可以在老鼠的背部这样做，然后你可以看到伤口愈合的情况。
There's zones within there where certain biology is really important to be happening.
那里有一些区域，某些生物学的发生确实很重要。
So imagine the wound is like this, and it's open.
想象一下伤口是这样的，而且它是开放的。
The cells one layer back are doing certain things, but the other ones behind that are also induced to do so.
后面一层的细胞正在做某些事情，但后面的其他细胞也被诱导这样做。
The wound isn't just this area.
伤口不只是这个地方。
It's actually sensed all like a gradient almost-
它实际上感觉起来几乎就像一个渐变-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
...
...
like in the neurons.
就像在神经元中一样。
And so these cells need to do different things than these cells.
因此，这些细胞需要做与这些细胞不同的事情。
So if you wanted to administer a peptide or even just a cell type, you have to be a little bit conscious of where it's going to do the work you want it to do.
因此，如果您想施用一种肽，甚至只是一种细胞类型，您必须稍微意识到它将在哪里完成您想要的工作。
And the natural system does that naturally.
自然系统会自然地做到这一点。
The cells on the inside actually instruct the cells one layer back.
里面的细胞实际上指导后面一层的细胞。
But you don't necessarily want everybody getting the same signal.
但您不一定希望每个人都收到相同的信号。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
So, development happens that way.
所以，发展就是这样发生的。
You know about gradients.
你知道渐变。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
And we were talking about this earlier that there's gradients.
我们之前讨论过梯度。
So, I think one of the tricks that we don't really understand about this is when is something good for a process, and when is it only good when it's given in the right dose at the right time?
所以，我认为我们对此并没有真正理解的技巧之一是，什么时候对一个过程有好处，什么时候只有在正确的时间以正确的剂量给予它才有效？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
And I think that's one of the tricks about some of these things.
我认为这是其中一些事情的技巧之一。
And again, that's where both in the lab and I would say that more so than ever in our lives, we're seeing people experimenting with things on themselves.
再说一遍，在实验室里，我想说的是，在我们的生活中，我们比以往任何时候都更能看到人们在自己身上进行实验。
And one of the sad parts about this, we don't capture a lot of data therefore, because it's not seen as a study, and we can't say everybody that took this gets this result.
令人遗憾的是，我们没有捕获大量数据，因为它不被视为一项研究，我们不能说每个接受此研究的人都会得到这个结果。
And then you have this rise of things on the internet of anecdotes that become seen as data.
然后，互联网上的奇闻轶事开始兴起，这些轶事被视为数据。
Like, I took this thing, and this happened, and I could drink this drink, and something great happened to me or something bad happened to me, but it might have nothing to do with the drink, right?
就像，我拿着这个东西，这件事发生了，我可以喝这种饮料，我身上发生了一些伟大的事情或者发生了一些坏事，但这可能与饮料无关，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
That issue is one that I think is really critical in this window of time right now.
我认为这个问题在目前这个时间段内非常关键。
And honestly, I don't know what to think about the idea that people do experiments on themselves.
老实说，我不知道如何看待人们在自己身上做实验的想法。
I think we all want to improve ourselves.
我想我们都想提高自己。
We all do some kind of experiments on ourselves.
我们都会在自己身上做一些实验。
You read a book, you're trying to improve yourself, right?
你读一本书，你正在努力提高自己，对吗？
The physical one gets a bit tricky when you're not sure whether something's going to be dangerous or not, but-
当你不确定某件事是否危险时，身体上的事情会变得有点棘手，但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
And I'm not promoting that people do this.
我并不是提倡人们这样做。
I think that, of course, you would want to see preclinical, clinical, and other trials for this.
我认为，当然，您会希望看到这方面的临床前、临床和其他试验。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
I think I would personally.
我想我个人会的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
There are a few areas where I am a bit more adventurous, but for the most part, based on my training and background, I have to orient toward, let me put it this way, I'd like a bunch of other people to do it first.
有一些领域我更具冒险精神，但在大多数情况下，根据我的训练和背景，我必须面向，让我这样说，我希望其他人先这样做。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like who wouldn't?
谁不会呢？
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's fun to be first unless you're doing something really stupid and that can get you killed.
成为第一很有趣，除非你做了一些非常愚蠢的事情并且可能会导致你丧命。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In which case, let other people go first.
既然如此，那就让其他人先走吧。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Well, I think a good example of that right now is, and this is nationwide or even international, is vaccine hesitancy.
嗯，我认为现在的一个很好的例子是，这是全国性的，甚至是国际性的，就是对疫苗的犹豫。
And I know this is a touchy topic, so we can-
我知道这是一个敏感的话题，所以我们可以-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, but you can feel open.
不，但你可以感到开放。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Well, I'll just point out that one group that's completely, no matter whether they're hesitant against childhood vaccines and the number of them we get and the fact that the government makes you take them and these sorts of things, if those people have cancer, they're very interested in vaccines.
好吧，我只想指出，有一个群体完全是，无论他们是否对儿童疫苗和我们接种的疫苗数量犹豫不决，也不管政府让你接种疫苗等等，如果这些人患有癌症，他们对疫苗非常感兴趣。
Because there's really good data that you can promote more immune cells against the tumor by making a vaccine that consists of some of the proteins and peptides that are unique to the tumor and different from you.
因为确实有很好的数据表明，您可以通过制造由肿瘤特有且与您不同的一些蛋白质和肽组成的疫苗来促进更多的免疫细胞对抗肿瘤。
And you introduce those as if you would introduce a virus or anything in a childhood vaccine, similar concept, just different peptides.
你引入这些就像你在儿童疫苗中引入病毒或任何东西一样，类似的概念，只是不同的肽。
They're peptides from the tumor.
它们是来自肿瘤的肽。
And in those situations, it's context, right?
在这些情况下，这是上下文，对吧？
So if you and I had cancer, and the conventional cures are not going to work on us, there we know statistics really well.
因此，如果你我都患有癌症，而传统疗法对我们不起作用，那么我们就非常了解统计数据。
Chemo is not very good for a lot of cancers, and so that's the only thing we got.
化疗对于很多癌症来说效果不是很好，所以这是我们唯一能做的。
But if you have access to something that's relatively new, and particularly vaccines, despite what some people worry about, they're pretty safe.
但如果你可以获得相对较新的东西，特别是疫苗，尽管有些人担心，但它们是相当安全的。
And so the certain die versus try out a vaccine drives a lot of people to be interested in vaccines.
因此，与尝试疫苗相比，一定会死亡促使很多人对疫苗产生了兴趣。
And I would say, yeah, in that case, you can see where people's question about whether they're going to try something or not is very context dependent.
我想说，是的，在这种情况下，你可以看到人们关于是否要尝试某件事的问题是非常依赖于上下文的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very.
非常。
I think I don't want to go too deep into the vaccine debate, and I don't want to be a spokesperson for either side because that's not my role today, but-
我想我不想太深入地参与疫苗辩论，我也不想成为任何一方的发言人，因为这不是我今天的角色，但是——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I think that the The what you refer to as vaccine hesitancy actually comes back to an earlier issue that maybe you'd be willing to comment on.
我认为你所说的疫苗犹豫实际上可以追溯到之前的一个问题，也许你愿意对此发表评论。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is I think there are a very large number of people for whom they are neither anti-vaccine nor super pro, but they're asking about timing and combinations.
我认为有很多人既不是反对疫苗也不是超级支持者，但他们会询问时机和组合。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Agreed.
同意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're saying, okay, listen.
他们说，好吧，听着。
And we had Jay Bhattacharya on here, and I've had several others who said maybe there should be an investigation of the spacing of these things.
杰伊·巴塔查亚 (Jay Bhattacharya) 也来了，还有其他几个人说也许应该对这些东西的间距进行调查。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How many.
有多少。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How critical it is to do at a given age.
在特定的年龄做这件事是多么重要。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And on and on.
不断地。
We could pick any vaccine for that reason.
因此我们可以选择任何疫苗。
And as an immunologist, do any of those questions make sense to ask?
作为一名免疫学家，这些问题是否有意义？
I could see how bombarding the young immune system with a lot of vaccines is a very different thing than spacing out the delivery of those vaccines.
我可以看出，用大量疫苗轰炸年轻的免疫系统与间隔接种这些疫苗是非常不同的。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not saying don't give them all.
我并不是说不要全部提供。
I'm saying over what time window does one give them?
我是说给他们什么时间窗口？
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think a lot of people, many more people are asking that question.
我想很多人都在问这个问题。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's just a quieter murmur-
只是一声低沉的低语——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
than are saying, "Listen, we don't want to take any of these things."
而不是说：“听着，我们不想拿走任何这些东西。”
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or we don't want our kids to take any of these things.
或者我们不希望我们的孩子接受任何这些东西。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Well, I've heard that too, and I think there's some fair aspect to which most of these vaccines were not studied in the context when they were studied of what it does in combination and in these sorts of timings.
嗯，我也听说过，而且我认为，在研究这些疫苗的联合作用和在这些时间点上的作用时，大多数疫苗都没有在一定的背景下进行研究，这有一些公平的方面。
The fact is that the evidence that there's bad things happening doesn't look to me tremendously strong.
事实上，在我看来，有坏事发生的证据并不十分有力。
It's almost like anecdotal sort of information.
这几乎就像是轶事类信息。
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Unless it's your kid.
除非是你的孩子。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Unless it's your kid, in which case you're going to look for an explanation.
除非是你的孩子，在这种情况下你会寻找解释。
So I-
所以我-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
...
...
I don't know.
我不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just being fair, as long as we're admitting psychology as a factor.
公平地说，只要我们承认心理学是一个因素。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So there's fairness on both sides of that discussion, and I think that almost certainly where we are now, there's probably ways to put together vaccines and certainly more convenient ways.
因此，讨论双方都是公平的，我认为几乎可以肯定的是，我们现在所处的位置，可能有多种方法来组合疫苗，当然还有更方便的方法。
As a parent, I actually had something very similar where we delayed my first daughter's, one of her vaccines, partly because I know that there's a certain element to which when we design a protocol, like the protocol for immunotherapy of cancer for patients was actually based a little bit on the mouse work, a lot on the mouse work that I did.
作为一名家长，我实际上遇到了非常相似的情况，我们推迟了我第一个女儿的疫苗接种，部分原因是我知道，当我们设计方案时，有一定的因素，比如癌症患者的免疫治疗方案，实际上有一点基于小鼠的工作，很大程度上基于我所做的小鼠工作。
You can imagine that mice and humans are quite different, but that is the protocol.
你可以想象老鼠和人类有很大不同，但这就是协议。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
And protocol is protocol, and that's how it's done in medicine, and that's because you have a fairly good sense of the safety of it because of statistics.
协议就是协议，这就是医学上的做法，这是因为通过统计数据，你对它的安全性有相当好的认识。
But that isn't to say that it's the only protocol that would work, and I think you're getting at this concept of could there give you at least a more convenient one, and also one that's-
但这并不是说它是唯一可行的协议，我认为您正在理解这样的概念：是否可以为您提供至少一个更方便的协议，而且是-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or best or safest
或者最好或者最安全
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
...
...
Or safest or even one that is less disruptive to the lives of the children and the parents.
或者是最安全的，甚至是对孩子和父母的生活干扰较小的一种。
We delayed one of our kids' vaccines by just a month or something because she had not been feeling well.
我们把其中一个孩子的疫苗接种推迟了一个月左右，因为她感觉不舒服。
Just straight up.
直接说吧。
And it is true.
这是真的。
And I'd say that a couple of the vaccines that have come out that I've had recently, the shingles one is a good example.
我想说的是，我最近接种的几种疫苗，带状疱疹疫苗就是一个很好的例子。
I had it.
我有它。
It just knocked me completely out and it's very, very heavily adjuvanted, so it's clear that it's having a does it need to be?
它让我彻底崩溃了，而且它的佐剂含量非常非常高，所以很明显它有必要吗？
I actually don't know.
我其实不知道。
I don't know what studies were done.
不知道做了什么研究。
And there's an aspect to which I don't know that we're all being shielded from the information, but I don't know that we all know how to read the information about how these regimens were chosen.
在某种程度上，我不知道我们都被屏蔽了，但我不知道我们都知道如何阅读有关如何选择这些方案的信息。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Some of them were chosen by competing pharma companies that each make their own materials and again, I think there's a lot in this question.
其中一些是由相互竞争的制药公司选择的，这些公司各自生产自己的材料，我认为这个问题有很多内容。
I don't know how much of it also represents one problem of science that I could talk about is this issue that a lot of science treat science as a kind of a papacy.
我不知道其中有多少也代表了我可以谈论的一个科学问题，即许多科学将科学视为一种教皇制度。
Like, we know the language, we know the facts, and we probably don't have time to tell you why we think this and where the holes are.
就像，我们了解语言，我们了解事实，但我们可能没有时间告诉您我们为什么这么认为以及漏洞在哪里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Excuse me for interrupting, but a huge basis of this podcast is to counter exactly that.
抱歉打扰一下，但是这个播客的一个重要基础就是要反驳这一点。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
I know.
我知道。
I know.
我知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know all these incredibly smart, incredibly well-meaning people who have lives of their own, health lives of their own, health challenges of their own, kids of their own, and on and on, and no one was hearing from them.
我认识所有这些非常聪明、非常善意的人，他们有自己的生活、自己的健康生活、自己的健康挑战、自己的孩子等等，但没有人听到他们的消息。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And as things get more politicized, there's less incentive to give nuance.
随着事情变得更加政治化，人们就没有动力去关注细微差别。
I actually really appreciate you providing some nuance on the-- It's clear where you stand on vaccines generally based on what you've said-
我真的很感谢你提供一些细微差别——根据你所说的，你对疫苗的立场很清楚——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but you're offering perhaps the opportunity for better understanding and certainly delivery of the information.
但你也许提供了更好地理解和传递信息的机会。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It's a huge problem.
这是一个大问题。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, I guess it's one of those ones that I can only speak about what I did right, as a human.
好吧，我想这是我只能谈论我作为一个人做对的事情之一。
When I had kids, and I looked at the data, and I have probably better capacity than some anyways to read it and look at risk versus harm, the percentages of these things.
当我有了孩子时，我查看了数据，而且我可能比某些人有更好的能力来阅读数据并查看风险与伤害以及这些事情的百分比。
I absolutely vaccinated the kids, and it seems even now like a reasonable no-brainer.
我绝对给孩子们接种了疫苗，即使现在看来这也是理所当然的。
But I just told you, too, that I asked to go off protocol because at some point, I know these protocols have a little bit of like, again, they were designed on one study, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't work if you wait another month.
但我也刚刚告诉过你，我要求取消协议，因为在某些时候，我知道这些协议有点像，它们是根据一项研究设计的，但这并不意味着如果你再等一个月它就不起作用。
In fact, if you've done enough mouse experiments, as I have, you know that when you vaccinate on a slightly different schedule, you can still end up with the same outcome, that is protection, with slightly different schedules.
事实上，如果你像我一样做了足够多的小鼠实验，你就会知道，当你按照稍微不同的时间表接种疫苗时，你仍然可以得到相同的结果，即保护，但时间表略有不同。
It's not that convenient for doctors and hospitals and even sometimes for patients to get off on weird schedule, and then you forget a dose, and then it isn't as effective, right?
这对医生和医院来说不太方便，甚至有时患者会按照奇怪的时间表下班，然后忘记服药，然后就没有那么有效了，对吗？
So there's efficacy that comes with trying to follow the protocol, and because the protocol has some convenience built into it, that means you're going to do it.
因此，尝试遵循协议会带来功效，并且因为协议内置了一些便利性，这意味着您将这样做。
It's like brushing your teeth in the morning.
这就像早上刷牙一样。
You do it in the morning, the evening, it's when you do it, and so you'll do it twice a day.
你早上做，晚上做，都是你做的时候，所以你一天做两次。
So there's a lot in this.
所以这里面有很多内容。
There's a lot of politics, I think, involved in vaccine, too, that relates to the question of at what point can the government tell you what to do, which is a surrogate question to the vaccine one, where a vaccine is if there's a harm, who gets to choose what the harm-benefit, and then how resources are given out for schools.
我认为，疫苗也涉及很多政治问题，这涉及到政府在什么时候可以告诉你该做什么的问题，这是疫苗问题的一个替代问题，如果有危害，疫苗在哪里，谁可以选择危害与收益，以及如何为学校分配资源。
We know all these sort of nuances.
我们知道所有这些细微差别。
From the science standpoint, I don't think you want to wipe out the baby with the bathwater.
从科学的角度来看，我不认为你想用洗澡水浇灭婴儿。
I don't think you'd-- Personally, I wouldn't not immunize my kids.
我不认为你会——就我个人而言，我不会不给我的孩子接种疫苗。
Could there be additional studies about the combination of these into fewer shots?
是否可以对 t 的组合进行更多研究？他会减少镜头吗？
I think so.
我想是的。
I don't see why not.
我不明白为什么不。
Here's where you get the financial rise.
这就是你获得财务增长的地方。
What's the benefit to any pharma company of doing that?
这样做对制药公司有什么好处？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I think this is, again, I have to be careful that I don't place myself into an advocacy group that I'm not.
嗯，我想，我必须再次小心，不要让自己陷入一个我不属于的倡导团体中。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I look at everything-
我看着一切——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
on a case-by-case basis.
视具体情况而定。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
I try to do the same.
我也尝试做同样的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I really try to do that.
我真的尝试这样做。
And I've tried to be, in recent years, more open to at least understanding what the anti-big pharma stance is really about.
近年来，我一直试图更加开放地至少理解反大型制药公司的立场到底是什么。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It comes up a lot around SSRIs, but you talk to somebody with clinical grade OCD, and they will tell you that SSRIs saved their life.
SSRIs 经常出现这种情况，但如果你和患有临床级强迫症的人交谈，他们会告诉你 SSRIs 拯救了他们的生命。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So then you go, okay, well, so we can say all we want about pharma, are you talking about people taking insulin?
那么你就说，好吧，那么我们就可以说出我们对制药业的所有看法，你是在谈论人们服用胰岛素吗？
Or until recently, the GLPs were mostly available through pharma.
或者直到最近，GLP 大多可以通过制药公司获得。
Now they're sort of, it's kind of the Wild West.
现在他们有点像狂野西部。
People are microdosing them from all sorts of compounding pharmacies as their own issues, and so on.
人们从各种复合药房购买微剂量的药物，以此作为自己的问题，等等。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But my sense is that the frustration around the kind of dictatorial, like, "You're going to do this at this point because this, or else you're persona non grata."
但我的感觉是，围绕着那种独裁者的挫败感，比如，“你现在要做这件事，因为这个，否则你就是不受欢迎的人。”
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That kind of people being shunned in both directions, in either direction, rather, that's really the source of the problem.
那种人在两个方向上都被回避，无论哪个方向，确切地说，这才是问题的根源。
There really hasn't ever been a conversation quite like this.
确实从来没有过这样的对话。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I agree.
我同意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
At least not one I've seen publicly.
至少我没有在公开场合见过。
Yeah, there are not a lot of labs that are going to devote themselves to this.
是的，没有很多实验室愿意致力于此。
People will wage the argument that, and I don't know if this is actually true, but that the pharma companies are protected against lawsuits about vaccine injuries.
人们会提出这样的论点：我不知道这是否属实，但制药公司受到保护，免受有关疫苗伤害的诉讼。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think that probably is very frustrating to a parent whose kid seemed essentially fine, got a vaccine, and three days later started exhibiting symptoms that then set them off on a course that was really, really tragic.
我认为这对于父母来说可能是非常令人沮丧的，他们的孩子看起来基本上很好，接种了疫苗，三天后开始表现出症状，然后让他们走上真正非常悲惨的道路。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And those groups are the ones that have accumulated the most oomph out there.
这些群体是最有魅力的群体。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And if you think about those parents, it's totally understandable-
如果你想想那些父母，这是完全可以理解的——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
why they would feel that way.
为什么他们会有这样的感觉。
Whether or not the basis of their feelings is exactly right, I can't speak to.
无论他们的感受的基础是否完全正确，我都无法回答。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But you can understand if your kid is one way, walk out of the doctor's office is another way, and you can't do anything about it, that's got to be mad-
但你可以理解，如果你的孩子是一种方式，走出医生的办公室是另一种方式，而你对此无能为力，那一定很生气——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Super frustrating
超级令人沮丧
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
beyond maddening.
令人发狂。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
And the question is, what could you have done differently, I think is, in those situations, having been in them, not that exact situation where you said, "Oh, now it's done, and now I can't go backward."
问题是，我认为，在那些情况下，你可以采取什么不同的做法，而不是你说的那种情况，“哦，现在已经完成了，现在我不能倒退了。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you did that to them.
而你却对他们这么做了。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Well, yeah.
嗯，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is the thing, I think-
事情就是这样，我想——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that is not often discussed, is that the parents made that choice on the basis of what they thought-
不常被讨论的是，父母做出这样的选择是基于他们的想法——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Recommendation
推荐
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
was the best.
是最好的。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So there's a certain guilt/anger.
所以有一定的内疚/愤怒。
There's a whole psychology to it that's completely understandable.
其中有一种完全可以理解的心理。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The kid didn't wander into the clinic.
那孩子并没有溜进诊所。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, on the way over here, I was thinking about some of the things that are happening in medical space.
嗯，在来这里的路上，我正在思考医疗领域正在发生的一些事情。
And you guys have obviously from time to time talk about peptides and these sorts of things that people are using off late.
你们显然时不时地谈论肽和人们最近使用的这类东西。
Well, not even off label, they're just getting them from wherever, the internet.
好吧，甚至不是标签外的，他们只是从互联网上的任何地方获取它们。
And I was thinking, there's a funny thing there because the legitimacy of pharma companies has sort of fallen into even worse straits than before because I was thinking about this, a lot of it does relate to the fact that we are advertised to take a lot of things that often the side effects are worse than the symptoms that we're relieving.
我在想，这是一件有趣的事情，因为制药公司的合法性已经陷入了比以前更糟糕的困境，因为我在想这个，其中很多确实与这样一个事实有关：我们被广告宣传要服用很多东西，而这些东西的副作用往往比我们正在缓解的症状更严重。
And that sort of, again, I may find myself having a bunch of colleagues hate me for talking about this with you, but I do think it's kind of important at some point to surface where all this comes from.
再说一次，我可能会发现自己有一群同事讨厌我与你谈论这件事，但我确实认为在某些时候揭露这一切的来源是很重要的。
And the idea that we can do experiments on ourselves, on our own bodies, again, it's quite different to say read a book, although you can be infected by, we believe, by scripture and things and your behavior.
我们可以在自己身上做实验，在我们自己的身体上做实验，这和读书是完全不同的，尽管我们相信，你可以被经文、事物和你的行为所感染。
But somehow in here, this idea that we can be told to do things by people that aren't quite in our best interests, I think it opens up the idea that, well, why can't I choose my best interest?
但不知何故，这种想法是，我们可以被不完全符合我们最大利益的人告诉我们做一些事情，我认为这开启了一个想法：好吧，为什么我不能选择我的最大利益？
Who are these experts that I can't always trust?
这些我不能总是信任的专家是谁？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's more American than that, after all?
毕竟，还有什么比这更美国化的呢？
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, it is.
嗯，确实如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
It is part of the pioneering spirit.
这是开拓精神的一部分。
If the government's not going to protect my 40 acres, I got to have a gun and protect it myself.
如果政府不打算保护我的 40 英亩土地，我就必须拥有一把枪并自己保护它。
And that's been a part of our culture for a very long time.
很长一段时间以来，这一直是我们文化的一部分。
And I think this idea of individuality plays into this, but it could be exacerbated at the moment by the fact that there haven't always been good communication with somebody you're trying to work out and maybe even surfacing of these ideas that are hard to talk about, like should we trust pharma companies?
我认为这种个性的想法发挥了作用，但目前它可能会因以下事实而加剧：与你试图解决的人并不总是有良好的沟通，甚至可能会浮出这些难以谈论的想法，比如我们应该信任制药公司吗？
I know a lot of people that work for pharma, and they are doing good.
我认识很多在制药公司工作的人，他们做得很好。
They're like you and me.
他们就像你和我一样。
They really think, and they are treating disease.
他们真的在思考，他们正在治疗疾病。
They're making really good drugs, and they do really good things.
他们正在制造非常好的药物，并且做了非常好的事情。
But it's not always true.
但这并不总是正确的。
Just because a bunch of people do it, and it's not always true that the subtle best interest of a corporation is the same as the best interest of an individual.
仅仅因为一群人这样做，公司微妙的最大利益并不总是与个人的最大利益相同。
So we have to surface those things exist.
所以我们必须揭露那些存在的东西。
It's not like we have to say that it's right or wrong or whatever, but at some point, these kind of perverse incentives exist.
这并不是说我们必须说这是对还是错或其他什么，但在某些时候，这种不正当的激励措施是存在的。
And I wonder why pharma companies haven't gotten better tests for who's going to respond to these checkpoint drugs that we made.
我想知道为什么制药公司没有对谁会对我们制造的这些检查点药物产生反应进行更好的测试。
We've had a few papers that show who are the responders and who are not, but it's still the case that if you come in with melanoma, even though there's only a 50% chance you're going to be cured, which is great, it used to be zero with these drugs, 100% of the market takes that drug.
我们已经有几篇论文表明谁是反应者，谁不是，但情况仍然是，如果你患有黑色素瘤，即使你被治愈的机会只有 50%，这很好，这些药物的治愈率过去为零，但 100% 的市场都在服用这种药物。
Well, because the 50% that aren't going to respond, they don't know who they are, and so everybody takes it.
嗯，因为那 50% 的人不会做出回应，他们不知道自己是谁，所以每个人都接受它。
So the companies that sell those have no incentive to develop a test.
因此，出售这些产品的公司没有动力开发测试。
All they'll get, if they develop a test that shows who is and who isn't going to respond, they'll cut their market in half.
如果他们开发出一种测试来显示谁会做出反应，谁不会做出反应，那么他们所能得到的就是将市场削减一半。
So I don't think any pharma executives are out there going, "Eh." But there's no positive incentive to do that study, to study those things.
所以我认为没有任何制药公司高管会说“呃”。但没有积极的动力去做这项研究，研究那些东西。
And I think it's kind of true in some of these other drugs that we've brought forward, some of which are better and worse than others.
我认为我们提出的其他一些药物也是如此，其中一些比其他药物更好或更差。
We get told that this is going to be good for us, and we should take it.
我们被告知这对我们有好处，我们应该接受它。
And again, you're getting to the American kind of mentality, which is to say, well, at some point, if you fool me twice or I'm not going to believe it, and I might not believe it against an entire spectrum of things called science.
再说一遍，你正在陷入美国人的心态，也就是说，好吧，在某些时候，如果你愚弄我两次，或者我不会相信它，而且我可能不会相信它反对整个称为科学的事物。
And the problem is that there's people like you and me that are trying to actually do, and most of us, I'd say 99.9% of us, are working our asses off to figure things out and discover stuff that's important for mankind.
问题是，像你我这样的人正在尝试真正去做，而我们大多数人，我想说我们中的 99.9%，都在竭尽全力地解决问题并发现对人类重要的东西。
And then you have these sort of issues that arise and you're like, well, then should you distrust, as a species, should you distrust the entire class of science?
然后你会遇到这类问题，你会想，那么，作为一个物种，你是否应该不信任整个科学类别？
Probably not.
可能不会。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
You just need to maybe make it so that knowledge is freer and knowledge is better communicated and that you do watch out for those situations where there should be...
你可能只需要做到这一点，以便知识更加自由，知识能够更好地交流，并且你确实要注意那些应该出现的情况......
And maybe vaccines are one, we just need to do something sensible like what you're describing and just to do a study and say, "Let's do that study and make that very public that we do it and say we're going to do that." And, obviously people can sign up for, you know, via you can have this regimen or the old regimen or the new regimen.
也许疫苗就是其中之一，我们只需要做一些像你所描述的明智的事情，只是进行一项研究并说，“让我们进行这项研究，并公开我们所做的事情，并说我们将这样做。”而且，显然人们可以注册，你知道，通过你可以有这个养生法、旧养生法或新养生法。
And again, I may be speaking out.
再说一遍，我可能会说出来。
I don't do vaccines.
我不做疫苗。
It's not what my lab studies, but there could be some sense to saying, well, maybe science as a whole could take this on and say, what would be...
这不是我的实验室研究的内容，但是说，好吧，也许整个科学可以接受这个并说，会是什么……可能是有道理的。
Maybe the answer isn't just say, "No vaccines." And we think they do, there's good evidence that they're protective.
也许答案不仅仅是说“没有疫苗”。我们认为它们确实如此，有充分的证据表明它们具有保护作用。
But to the extent that you're coming out, could we make it less...
但就你出来的程度而言，我们能不能减少一点……
Let's do it and let's just do it.
让我们去做吧，让我们去做吧。
Let's do that experiment.
我们来做一下这个实验吧。
But I don't see that, that's one of the things that's not happening right now is that nobody's actually describing an experiment.
但我不认为，现在没有发生的事情之一是没有人真正描述一个实验。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
What would be the experiment?
实验会是什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, the discussions haven't happened, and I should say a couple of things.
好吧，讨论还没有发生，我应该说几件事。
First of all, thank you for being willing to venture into this area.
首先，感谢您愿意涉足这一领域。
I seriously doubt that any of your colleagues are going to be upset that you're having this conversation.
我严重怀疑你的任何同事都会因为你正在进行这次谈话而感到不安。
I will make sure that anything we put out is in context.
我会确保我们发布的任何内容都符合上下文。
And if anyone cuts a clip, I will be the first to dive in there and say, "This is taken out of context." But, to any people, colleagues or otherwise, that would say, "Hey, actually, this is the wrong stance.
如果有人剪辑剪辑，我将第一个跳进去并说：“这是断章取义的。”但是，对于任何人、同事或其他人来说，这都会说：“嘿，实际上，这是错误的立场。
You don't want to be talking about nuance in a time when there's so much threat to traditional medicine and vaccines," et cetera.
在传统医学和疫苗面临如此大威胁的时代，你不想谈论细微差别，”等等。
I will say this, the idea that you need to push back with just a fire hose of do this or else-
我要说的是，你需要用一根消防水龙带来反击，否则——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
did not work.
没有用。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The pandemic proved that.
这次疫情证明了这一点。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That in fact, I think one of the biggest mistakes was to have one individual as opposed to a panel of people with more nuance communicating public health information at that time.
事实上，我认为最大的错误之一是让一个人而不是一群人在当时更细致地传达公共卫生信息。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Any person, scientist, doctor or otherwise, who thinks that the way to convince people to change their behavior around vaccines or anything else is to just ram it down the public's throat and say, "Or else you're whatever, you're political this or you're a fascist," or whatever.
任何人，科学家，医生或其他人，如果认为说服人们改变他们在疫苗或其他任何事情上的行为的方法就是将其强行灌输给公众并说，“否则你就是什么，你是政治性的，或者你是法西斯主义者，”或者其他什么。
Okay?
好的？
That is proven to be wrong.
事实证明这是错误的。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the path forward is really this kind of conversation.
前进的道路实际上就是这种对话。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's highly educated people like yourself, educated in the immune system, who understand this, who have children, who've made certain choices, saying, "Yes, and I can understand why you would be considering the following questions, and we should do a study."
像你这样受过高等教育、接受过免疫系统教育的人明白这一点，他们有孩子，他们做出了某些选择，他们说：“是的，我可以理解为什么你会考虑以下问题，我们应该做一项研究。”
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And in the meantime, you're not preventing anyone from getting vaccines.
与此同时，你并没有阻止任何人接种疫苗。
There's now a hunger for more nuanced conversation around these things.
现在人们渴望围绕这些事情进行更细致的对话。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think it's the right time to have it when we're not in the throes of a pandemic.
我认为，当我们还没有陷入大流行的痛苦时，现在正是拥有它的最佳时机。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yet.
然而。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yet.
然而。
There's some things that are on the rise.
有些事情正在上升。
It is scary.
这很可怕。
I'll be quite blunt, the rise in measles is scary.
我会很直言不讳，麻疹的增加是可怕的。
People say, "Well, measles, they used to have measles parties." Talk to somebody who had massive inflammation-
人们说：“好吧，麻疹，他们曾经举办过麻疹派对。”与患有严重炎症的人交谈-
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and brain inflammation from measles.
和麻疹引起的脑部炎症。
Not a pretty picture.
不是一幅漂亮的图画。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not a pretty picture.
不是一幅漂亮的图画。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I think it's great that these conversations are starting, and it won't be taken out of context.
所以我认为这些对话的开始很好，而且不会断章取义。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, on the vaccination front, I just wrote a little sub-cycle so about the origins of small vaccination.
嗯，在疫苗接种方面，我刚刚写了一个关于小规模疫苗接种的起源的小子周期。
And I think what's lost in those stories is if you look on the internet, that's a terrible disease.
我认为这些故事中丢失的是，如果你在互联网上查看，那是一种可怕的疾病。
The reality of what we're protecting against, it's really hard to also have the conversation without doing a little bit of reading into your history.
我们要防范的现实是，如果不稍微阅读一下你的历史，就很难进行对话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
And I don't think the history books are pulling the wool over our eyes by saying some of these things were really horrendous.
我不认为历史书说其中一些事情真的很可怕，从而蒙蔽了我们的双眼。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, smallpox was dreadful.
嗯，天花很可怕。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
So there's an element of that, though, that I think, that we have to make sure that the conversation focuses on what are we trying to achieve here?
因此，我认为其中有一个要素是，我们必须确保对话的重点是我们想要在这里实现什么？
And sometimes that question can get lost.
有时这个问题可能会被迷失。
But I think, man, if my kid got smallpox or got measles or got mumps, and as we know, measles is not a theoretical.
但我想，伙计，如果我的孩子得了天花、麻疹或腮腺炎，正如我们所知，麻疹并不是理论上的。
Again, it's certain.
再说一次，这是肯定的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
That concept is enough to say, well, there is a risk of that, and that's one where you...
这个概念足以说明，嗯，存在这种风险，而这就是你......
It's like you're not teaching your kid how to cross the street properly.
就像你没有教你的孩子如何正确过马路一样。
If you didn't do that and then the kid got hit by a car, you'd just be decimated.
如果你不这样做，然后孩子被车撞了，你就会被消灭。
So, just because we haven't seen these things for a while doesn't mean that they're not still real.
因此，仅仅因为我们有一段时间没有看到这些东西并不意味着它们仍然不真实。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
And I think that's also an important, again, that's me as a parent saying, look, I did look at the history of these things, and they really are bad.
我认为这也很重要，作为一名家长，我说，看，我确实研究了这些事情的历史，它们确实很糟糕。
And so we are defending against something, but, is there a better way to do it?
所以我们正在防御某些东西，但是，有更好的方法吗？
Propose experiment.
提出实验。
I think there's a, cutting off the concept of human curiosity and science at the legs is probably not the way to figure something out from my experience.
我认为，从腿上切断人类好奇心和科学的概念可能不是从我的经验中找出答案的方法。
You dive in, you think of the experiment that will answer the question, and you say, "Well, is that the killer experiment for this thing?" Again, I think you look at the numbers, and the numbers from my, this is me as a parent looking at the numbers of the danger of bad stuff happening versus the odds of an adverse effect.
你深入思考，想到可以回答这个问题的实验，然后你说：“嗯，这是这个东西的杀手级实验吗？”再说一遍，我想你看看这些数字，这些数字是我作为父母看到的，坏事发生的危险数字与不利影响的几率。
They weren't all that high, but again, if you're one of the people that even if it is that, even if it is caused by a vaccine, which I don't, by the way...
它们并没有那么高，但同样，如果你是这样的人之一，即使是这样，即使它是由疫苗引起的，顺便说一句，我不这样做......
Can I tell you a little story?
我可以告诉你一个小故事吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Please.
请。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Maybe you know this already, but if you want to induce autism in mice, people do it by injecting a bacterial infection into the mom when she's pregnant.
也许你已经知道这一点，但如果你想诱发小鼠自闭症，人们可以通过在怀孕时向小鼠体内注射细菌感染来实现。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Which tells you that an immune challenge can affect the neurons of a developing pup.
这告诉你，免疫挑战会影响发育中的幼崽的神经元。
So it's not outside the realm to say that in some situations, in an adjuvant situation, again, I may regret saying this because it's going to open up a conversation to have this, but it's not outside the bounds to say that an immune insult will have influence on neural development, period.
因此，在某些情况下，在辅助情况下，我可能会后悔这么说，因为这会引发一场对话，这并不是超出范围的说法，但说免疫损伤会对神经发育产生影响也并非超出范围。
Is it the source of autistic children, or was it in fact that the mom had infection during pregnancy?
是自闭症儿童的根源，还是妈妈在怀孕期间感染了病毒？
It's not absolutely wacko to think, and you should think this as a neurobiologist, I think you'll probably agree, to think that inflammation, some of the molecules of inflammation will affect the-
这并不完全是疯狂的想法，你应该作为神经生物学家来思考这一点，我想你可能会同意，认为炎症，一些炎症分子会影响-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure
当然可以
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
...
...
the cells of the brain.
大脑的细胞。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
In fact, one of the best experiments that I looked along these lines, it's not about autism at all, but it's about when you get a flu, you tend to feel like you want to socially isolate yourself.
事实上，我沿着这些思路进行的最好的实验之一，它根本不是关于自闭症，而是关于当你患上流感时，你往往会觉得你想要在社交上孤立自己。
At least I do, and most people do, I think.
至少我是这样，我想大多数人也是如此。
They kind of want to crawl in a hole.
他们有点想钻进洞里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
It's that crawl in a hole feel.
就是那种在洞里爬行的感觉。
There's an experiment that was done that involved injecting gamma interferon, which is one of the things your immune system makes when it's fighting off an infection, into the bloodstream of a mouse, and then just watching it.
有一项实验涉及将伽玛干扰素（这是免疫系统抵抗感染时产生的物质之一）注射到小鼠的血液中，然后观察它。
And they become socially isolating from just the molecule that's made by the immune response during an infection.
他们在社交上与感染期间免疫反应产生的分子隔离。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not even from being sick.
甚至不是因为生病。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Not even being sick.
连生病都没有。
They're not sick.
他们没有生病。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
They just are given this cue that's part of the systemic immune response, and then they show the signs of social isolation.
他们只是得到了系统免疫反应一部分的提示，然后他们就表现出了社会孤立的迹象。
And the lab that did this also showed that the brain has receptors for these immune molecules.
这样做的实验室还表明，大脑具有这些免疫分子的受体。
And the simple conclusion of that paper is, there's still always work to be done, but simple conclusion was that the brain could sense infection and it would affect behavior, even in mature, in us as mature.
这篇论文的简单结论是，仍然有很多工作要做，但简单的结论是，大脑可以感知感染，它会影响行为，即使是成熟的人，也包括成熟的我们。
So again, these ideas that there's something that...
再说一遍，这些想法认为有一些东西......
Scientists use that infection of a mom to lead to neuronal changes that lead us to be able to study autism in later mice.
科学家利用母亲的感染导致神经元变化，使我们能够研究后来小鼠的自闭症。
So there's definitely potential there.
所以那里绝对有潜力。
I don't know that the vaccines and all of them, or whether there's a circumstance or whether it's, again, the mom actually had a fever before and the vaccine now just triggered or it didn't, or just circumstance because you give vaccines at two years of age, which is when autism appears.
我不知道疫苗和所有这些疫苗，或者是否存在某种情况，或者是否是，再一次，妈妈以前真的发烧了，而疫苗现在刚刚触发或没有，或者只是情况，因为你在两岁的时候接种了疫苗，这是自闭症出现的时候。
There's all kinds of options, and those sort of anecdotes-
有各种各样的选择，还有那些轶事——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
...
...
of that.
的。
And I just think that that fact that the way that we study autism is by giving a pregnant female mouse an infection is sort of like, okay, that's important to know.
我只是认为，我们研究自闭症的方法是让怀孕的雌性小鼠感染，这一点有点像，好吧，知道这一点很重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
That work is still ongoing by laboratories to understand autism.
实验室仍在进行这项工作，以了解自闭症。
They want to understand the origins of it.
他们想了解它的起源。
And maybe it will not turn out to be vaccines at all.
也许它根本就不是疫苗。
Again, we need data.
同样，我们需要数据。
And we're in this-
而我们就在这个——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We definitely need data
我们确实需要数据
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
...
...
we're almost in a COVID situation.
我们几乎处于新冠疫情的境地。
I describe the COVID situation now in retrospect as one that is data sparse.
现在回想起来，我将新冠疫情的情况描述为数据稀疏的情况。
And this is why I've been trying to work on, I was telling you about this project of trying to work on the publishing problem.
这就是我一直在努力工作的原因，我告诉你们这个试图解决出版问题的项目。
But it's not just the publishing problem, it's how we synthesize knowledge.
但这不仅仅是出版问题，更是我们综合知识的方式问题。
That under data sparse circumstances to make decisions, I think we're not very good at that societally.
在数据稀疏的情况下做出决策，我认为我们在社会上不太擅长。
When we have tons of data and it says absolutely if you have cancer and you take immunotherapy, then there's a 50% chance you're going to revive, great.
当我们有大量数据并且绝对表明如果您患有癌症并且接受免疫治疗时，那么您有 50% 的机会复活，这很好。
Those stats are solid, they're very good, and I would take that drug every time.
这些数据很可靠，非常好，我每次都会服用这种药物。
But if it's sort of a case where you're like, "Oh, there's some things that are happening and there's some other things that are happening we don't know." You remember at the beginning of COVID, we were talking about it amongst ourselves in lab roles, and we were coming in to analyze blood, and it was sort of unsafe because we didn't know what was safe.
但如果在这种情况下，你会说，“哦，有些事情正在发生，还有一些其他事情正在发生，我们不知道。”你记得在新冠病毒爆发之初，我们在实验室里讨论过这个问题，我们进来分析血液，这有点不安全，因为我们不知道什么是安全的。
We didn't know how it was transmitted.
我们不知道它是如何传播的。
We didn't know anything about it.
我们对此一无所知。
Could we get it from blood?
我们可以从血液中获取它吗？
And that kind of went on for a while, right?
这种情况持续了一段时间，对吗？
And this was the source of a lot of confusion that came from the medical...
这就是医学上许多混乱的根源......
It was seen as confusion in that matter of fact.
事实上，这被视为混乱。
It's like, do you mask, do you not mask?
就像，你戴口罩，不戴口罩吗？
Do you touch, do you not touch?
你摸，你不摸吗？
I think that's a data sparse situation.
我认为这是数据稀疏的情况。
The data that we had was sparse.
我们拥有的数据很少。
It wasn't a lot of information.
这并不是很多信息。
And so, how do you make a decision when you don't have a lot of data?
那么，当你没有大量数据时，你如何做出决定呢？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I think that's the major argument.
嗯，我认为这是主要的论点。
When there are people that will critique people saying, "Okay, your experience is anecdata, it's correlative," with regard to vaccines and autism and other issues.
当有人批评人们说，“好吧，你的经历只是轶事，它是相关的”，涉及疫苗、自闭症和其他问题。
But then the pushback is, well, this vaccine, et cetera, was directionally guided by sparse information to begin with-
但随之而来的阻力是，这种疫苗等等，一开始就受到稀疏信息的指导——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
under times of pressure, there's financial incentives.
在压力时期，有经济激励。
So it's just this ping pong that goes back and forth.
所以这只是来回的乒乓球。
But many thousands of parents write to me and say, "Should I wait on certain vaccines?" And I'm like, "Listen, I am not the person to answer that question."
但成千上万的家长写信给我说：“我应该等待某些疫苗吗？”我说：“听着，我不是回答这个问题的人。”
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But you have every right to ask your doctor.
但您完全有权询问您的医生。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
But they're not asking because they're extremists.
但他们之所以这么问，并不是因为他们是极端分子。
They're not anti-vaxxers.
他们不是反疫苗者。
They're asking because they love their kids-
他们这样问是因为他们爱他们的孩子——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and they've seen enough things to call into question the incentives, and they just know that the conversation cannot be as polarized as it's presented to them in reality.
他们已经看到足够多的事情来质疑激励措施，他们只知道对话不可能像现实中呈现的那样两极分化。
The data cannot be as polarized as it's been presented.
数据不可能像所呈现的那样两极分化。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Certainly in media, some of these things get presented quite inflammatory.
当然，在媒体中，其中一些事情的呈现相当具有煽动性。
And again, if newspapers want to sell a newspaper, they show a plane crash.
再说一遍，如果报纸想卖报纸，他们就会展示飞机失事的情况。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
So it's not happening every day, but-
所以这不是每天都会发生，但是-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe they'll show you an airline ad in the same issue.
也许他们会在同一期向您展示航空公司广告。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Well, there's that too.
嗯，还有那个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
I think one of the interesting things that we could get into too is that in a lot of these studies, scientists are, there's a motivation to make the most of your result.
我认为我们也可以参与的有趣的事情之一是，在很多这样的研究中，科学家们有动机充分利用你的结果。
And we've talked about why that's important, is that if you find something orthogonal, CRISPR, checkpoint blockade, X-rays, you look for that orthogonal use for it, right?
我们已经讨论过为什么这很重要，那就是如果你发现一些正交的东西，比如 CRISPR、检查点封锁、X 射线，你就会寻找它的正交用途，对吗？
Or that orthogonal meaning.
或者说正交的意思。
Sometimes we call it extensibility.
有时我们称之为可扩展性。
Like I see that if I drop coffee cup on the thing, that gravity pulls it down.
就像我看到的，如果我把咖啡杯放在那个东西上，重力就会把它拉下来。
Well, then I can learn that I can drop all kinds of things.
好吧，然后我就能知道我可以放弃各种各样的东西。
I can make gravity work for me.
我可以让重力为我服务。
It becomes a tool.
它成为一种工具。
And I think one of the things that is lost sometimes is that some things are not extensible.
我认为有时会丢失的事情之一是有些东西是不可扩展的。
So you can imagine that if I had something that makes a cell move, that that might screw up the whole system forever.
所以你可以想象，如果我有某种东西可以让细胞移动，那可能会永远搞砸整个系统。
But humans and our bodies turn out to be remarkably resilient.
但事实证明，人类和我们的身体具有非常强的适应能力。
We can go from minus 20 degrees to 110 degrees.
我们可以从负 20 度到 110 度。
We can not eat for a long time.
我们不能长时间吃东西。
All these things don't cause us to fall apart.
所有这些事情都不会导致我们崩溃。
So if we didn't have resilience, I think our species wouldn't exist because there's all these pressures and all these varieties of life under which we lead.
因此，如果我们没有复原力，我认为我们的物种就不会存在，因为我们面临着所有这些压力和所有这些不同的生活。
And I think a lot of science sometimes doesn't, and from the outsider, even as an insider, you can read a paper and they point to why it might be important, but they're really doing that to garner interest for their story, and then say, "This might be important for this, but I haven't shown that it's important for it." They don't say that it's important, they say it might be important, and they're trying to look for that orthogonal or that extensibility of it.
我认为很多科学有时不会，从局外人来看，即使作为内部人士，你可以阅读一篇论文，他们指出为什么它可能很重要，但他们这样做实际上是为了吸引人们对他们的故事的兴趣，然后说，“这可能对此很重要，但我还没有表明它对此很重要。”他们没有说这很重要，他们说这可能很重要，并且他们正在尝试寻找它的正交性或可扩展性。
And I think that's kind of important also just to go a little bit off this topic for a moment in how we think about drugging diseases as we go forward.
我认为，在我们前进的过程中，暂时偏离这个主题，思考如何对疾病进行药物治疗，这一点也很重要。
And that is to say, we've looked for these one-and-done drugs that you take a pill, and it cures everything, forever.
也就是说，我们一直在寻找这些一劳永逸的药物，只要服用一粒药丸，它就能永远治愈一切。
That's sort of fountain of youth-ish.
这有点像青春之泉。
And we found a few of those.
我们发现了其中一些。
I would say checkpoint blockade is one of those, that you can take it, and in 50% of melanomas, the tumor goes away and everything's great.
我想说检查点封锁就是其中之一，你可以接受它，在 50% 的黑色素瘤中，肿瘤消失了，一切都很好。
But most biological systems, if you have one button to push, they're super non-resilient.
但大多数生物系统，如果你按下一个按钮，它们就会非常缺乏弹性。
A virus can exploit that button.
病毒可以利用该按钮。
That can cause it to collapse.
这可能会导致它崩溃。
And so most things are wired, like in these really complicated ways.
所以大多数东西都是有线的，就像这些非常复杂的方式一样。
And I think what a few of us are thinking, this is for cancer in particular, where you want to get the immune state from like, remember we had our little concept of a fuel gauge.
我想我们中的一些人在想，这尤其是针对癌症，你想从中获得免疫状态，记住我们有关于电量计的小概念。
You want to get it from one position to another position.
你想把它从一个位置移动到另一个位置。
It may not just be about a push here.
这可能不仅仅是推动这里的事情。
You may have to push some cells that way, create some new environment that looks like development.
你可能必须以这种方式推动一些细胞，创建一些看起来像开发的新环境。
Your cells develop through states.
你的细胞通过状态而发展。
And you push the biological systems to reach this new state in a way that doesn't look like they're linear between low immune reactivity and high reactivity.
你推动生物系统达到这种新状态，其方式看起来在低免疫反应性和高反应性之间并不呈线性关系。
You might have to push it in a serious way because the resiliency, the systems, even in chronic disease, but even in health, we're pretty resilient.
你可能必须认真地推动它，因为弹性，系统，即使在慢性疾病中，但即使在健康方面，我们也相当有弹性。
You can stand up to a lot of stuff.
你可以承受很多事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can humans do that even in the context of abundant funding for basic research?
即使在基础研究资金充足的情况下，人类也能做到这一点吗？
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can what you just described actually be tested to the point where we can develop things?
您刚才描述的内容是否可以实际测试到我们可以开发东西的程度？
And the analogy here is, I had my dad on the podcast, he's a theoretical physicist, and he explained to me that one of the most important things you learn in physics is that you can't really understand quantum mechanics using your logical brain.
这里的类比是，我的爸爸在播客上，他是一位理论物理学家，他向我解释说，你在物理学中学到的最重要的事情之一是，你无法用你的逻辑大脑真正理解量子力学。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You need the math to prove it.
你需要数学来证明这一点。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He also warned whenever somebody says they understand quantum stuff, you have to ask them to demonstrate it for you.
他还警告说，每当有人说他们了解量子知识时，你就必须要求他们为你演示。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because people talk quantum because-
因为人们谈论量子是因为——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and we make all these assumptions, they talk about quantum fields, so we think they're smart.
我们做出所有这些假设，他们谈论量子场，所以我们认为他们很聪明。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the theoretical physicists, and therefore engineers, develop all sorts of incredible theorems and real experiments, and then technologies based on all of that.
但是理论物理学家以及工程师开发了各种令人难以置信的定理和真实的实验，然后基于所有这些提出了技术。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because the math works, not because we can conceptualize it.
因为数学有效，而不是因为我们可以将其概念化。
And I wonder, given the complexity of biological systems-
我想知道，考虑到生物系统的复杂性——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
perhaps in 2026, we're running up against this barrier where by virtue of the sociology of science, that papers need to have one, maybe two take-home messages.
也许到 2026 年，我们将遇到这一障碍，根据科学社会学，论文需要有一个、也许两个重要信息。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
By virtue of the fact that there's a limited amount of funding, people need to sleep at night, and on and on, that doing the kinds of experiments like you described, like pushing the cells this way, nudging them that way, and then drugging the outcome in a way that is beneficial but not detrimental, is this a place where machines are going to be better or at least helpful in doing these experiments?
由于资金有限，人们需要在晚上睡觉，不断地进行像你所描述的那种实验，比如以这种方式推动细胞，以那种方式推动细胞，然后以有益但无害的方式对结果进行药物治疗，这是机器在做这些实验中会更好或至少有帮助的地方吗？
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
I take the standpoint that AIs, and I think, this is back to talking to AI experts, it's really quite good at producing stuff that is in the corpus.
我认为人工智能的立场是，我认为这又回到了与人工智能专家的交谈，它确实非常擅长生成语料库中的内容。
The corpus is the knowledge that we already have.
语料库是我们已经拥有的知识。
Almost by definition, when you're coming at that with something discovery, you're discovering something, it doesn't exist in the corpus.
几乎根据定义，当你发现一些东西时，你正在发现一些东西，它不存在于语料库中。
You might have hints of it there, but you still have to do experiments at some point.
您可能会在那里得到一些提示，但您仍然需要在某些时候进行实验。
So if I'm going to answer the question you're trying to raise, if I get a tumor from a patient, and I take apart all the cell and I look at all the genes that are expressed in all the different cell types, I can build in silico a network where I can look at how all those cells are wired together now.
因此，如果我要回答你想提出的问题，如果我从病人身上得到肿瘤，我拆开所有细胞，观察所有不同细胞类型中表达的所有基因，我可以在计算机中建立一个网络，在其中我可以观察所有这些细胞现在是如何连接在一起的。
And I can ask, what would be the possible consequence of clipping this molecule's ability to touch that cell?
我可以问，如果限制该分子接触该细胞的能力，可能会产生什么后果？
That's now doable, but it relies on an area of math that's not really AI.
现在这是可行的，但它依赖于一个并非真正人工智能的数学领域。
It's called machine learning, and sometimes these things are conflated.
这就是所谓的机器学习，有时这些东西会被混为一谈。
But machine learning is basically looking to say, what are some of the relationships that I can discover about the relationship between this feature of the cell and this other feature of the cell?
但机器学习基本上是在说，关于细胞的这个特征和细胞的另一个特征之间的关系，我可以发现哪些关系？
So it's learning about it, and then it allows you to propose a bunch of experiments.
所以它正在学习它，然后它允许你提出一堆实验。
But you still kind of have to choose and select which ones you're going to do.
但你仍然必须选择你要做什么。
Some experiments are just really expensive.
有些实验确实非常昂贵。
And that's where you have to have, I think, still human judgment that comes into that and say, "Am I going to spend a year studying this question, or am I going to study a little bit more and try to understand some things in a greater detail than maybe the machine learning gave me?" But it's not clear to me that anywhere right now we can say the corpus of knowledge doesn't have a bunch of examples of cures across from treatments and say, "Oh, all I need to do is match those up," which is kind of what AI does when it comes to a large language model.
我认为，这就是你必须做出人类判断的地方，并说：“我是要花一年时间研究这个问题，还是要多研究一点，并尝试比机器学习给我的更详细地理解一些事情？”但我不清楚现在在任何地方我们都可以说知识库中没有一堆与治疗相反的治疗方法的例子，然后说，“哦，我需要做的就是将它们匹配起来”，这就是人工智能在处理大型语言模型时所做的事情。
You query it, it looks statistically and says what are the relationships between what you queried and what I give you back as an answer.
你查询它，它看起来是统计性的，并说明你查询的内容和我给你的答案之间的关系是什么。
In a discovery space, we don't have examples of the other end.
在发现空间中，我们没有另一端的示例。
Sure, I can tell you all the things you could do, but knowing which one is going to be orthogonal big hit is in there.
当然，我可以告诉你所有你可以做的事情，但知道哪一个会成为正交的大热门就在那里。
But what I'm talking about a little bit is to take a problem apart and say, if I have something like I want to change something, in anything, this could be if I want to change the world.
但我要说的是把问题拆开来说，如果我有一些事情，比如我想改变什么，在任何事情上，这可能是如果我想改变世界。
It's unlikely that any one act will do it.
任何一项行动都不可能做到这一点。
Also, the world is pretty, political systems, despite what we think, are somehow semi-stable.
此外，世界是美丽的，政治体系，不管我们怎么想，在某种程度上都是半稳定的。
But a series of these nudges can create the condition where the last one takes you across the border, and I think that's what we're going to have to do in disease, where we say, look, nature doesn't necessarily want us banging on it.
但一系列的这些推动可以创造出最后一个推动你跨越边界的条件，我认为这就是我们在疾病方面必须要做的，我们说，看，大自然并不一定希望我们去撞击它。
It'll bang back.
它会反弹回来。
What in effect we need to do is if we want this tumor to get cured, we need to first let it not look like it's a wound that's healing, so don't give it the power of the immune system, the positive power, and then get to the point where we can say, well, now we want it to teach the immune system to kill it.
实际上，我们需要做的是，如果我们希望这个肿瘤得到治愈，我们首先需要让它看起来不像是正在愈合的伤口，所以不要给它免疫系统的力量，积极的力量，然后我们可以说，好吧，现在我们希望它教免疫系统杀死它。
But we might not be able to do that until we kind of dissemble some of its defenses.
但除非我们瓦解了它的一些防御措施，否则我们可能无法做到这一点。
And that's a way of, again, in this kind of deep computational space, we end up with a lot of feature of tissue cells and how they're organized and what genes they're expressing that start to look like Magellan's map of the world.
再次，在这种深度计算空间中，我们最终得到了组织细胞的许多特征以及它们的组织方式以及它们表达的基因，这些特征开始看起来像麦哲伦的世界地图。
That in its early phase, it only had parts, and then as you explore and you add things to it, I think when we start to think about how tissues are configured, we're starting to be able to see these really complicated states where the immune system is doing this, and fibroblasts, certain cells are doing this, and epithelial cells are doing this, and that's a- We call them archetypes.
在早期阶段，它只有部分，然后当你探索并向其中添加东西时，我认为当我们开始思考组织如何配置时，我们开始能够看到这些非常复杂的状态，其中免疫系统正在执行此操作，成纤维细胞、某些细胞正在执行此操作，上皮细胞正在执行此操作，这就是 - 我们称之为原型。
They're like a way that biology organizes itself.
它们就像生物学组织自身的一种方式。
And to get from one to the next, we need to understand how it does it developmentally.
为了从一个到下一个，我们需要了解它是如何发展的。
That would be a really nice thing to follow.
这将是一件非常值得遵循的事情。
And then we need to give those cues in order.
然后我们需要按顺序给出这些提示。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
And that's where I was coming back, when you were talking about peptides earlier, I was saying, well, some of these drugs may well work, but I might imagine that they might work best if given in the right sequence, and the time, and the place, and that that's when you really want to hammer to get the system to go to that.
这就是我回来的地方，当你早些时候谈论肽时，我说，好吧，其中一些药物可能很有效，但我可能会想象，如果以正确的顺序、时间和地点给予它们，它们可能会发挥最好的作用，而那时你真的想努力让系统做到这一点。
But then it might be connected to another one.
但随后它可能会连接到另一个。
And we all want to find a one thing that like, the fountain of youth, the thing that cures a disease.
我们都想找到一种东西，比如青春之泉，可以治愈疾病的东西。
And it's been forever that we've looked for single hits, one and done.
我们一直在寻找单一的成功，一劳永逸。
But it may be a collection.
但它可能是一个集合。
And this is how I live my life for health, too.
这也是我为了健康而生活的方式。
There's collection of behaviors, and food you eat, and sleep you get, and-
这里有一系列的行为、你吃的食物、你的睡眠，还有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
...
...
all these things create, and partners, the loves of your life, the friends you have, they're all part of, I think, this.
所有这些东西创造了伴侣，你一生的挚爱，你拥有的朋友，我认为他们都是这个的一部分。
And that's getting a little away from immunology, obviously, but it-
显然，这与免疫学有些偏离，但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, but not-
不，但不是——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
This is an analogy
这是一个类比
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
when we think about the insula, not so much.
当我们想到脑岛时，就没有那么多了。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A good friend of mine who's a physician in the Bay Area says, "Better living through chemistry still requires better living."
我的一位好朋友是湾区的一名医生，他说：“通过化学实现更好的生活仍然需要更好的生活。”
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which I love because it says you should never abandon as much as one can, the foundational stuff of sleep, exercise, nutrition-
我喜欢这一点，因为它说你永远不应该尽可能地放弃睡眠、锻炼、营养的基本要素——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
circadian rhythm, light-
昼夜节律、光
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
social connection, stress mitigation, and on and on.
社交联系、缓解压力等等。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could I ask you a couple of additional questions about the immune system?
我可以问您一些有关免疫系统的其他问题吗？
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah, please.
是的，请。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Before we wrap, because I know many people are curious about autoimmune issues.
在我们结束之前，因为我知道很多人对自身免疫问题感到好奇。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
More and more, I hear about, I don't know if it's chronic fatigue considered an autoimmune issue by most.
我越来越多地听到，我不知道这是否是大多数人认为的自身免疫问题的慢性疲劳。
A lot of people seem to have chronic fatigue.
很多人似乎都有慢性疲劳。
There was a debate, does it really exist?
有人争论，它真的存在吗？
For someone who believes they have it, it absolutely exists.
对于那些相信自己拥有它的人来说，它绝对存在。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're tired.
他们累了。
I believe them.
我相信他们。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know someone who had a myalgia-
我认识一个患有肌痛的人——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Hmm
嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
recently.
最近。
Psoriasis is something that I maybe have known to be now autoimmune.
我现在可能知道牛皮癣是一种自身免疫性疾病。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Asthma.
哮喘。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
These are interesting conditions, not all of them life-threatening-
这些都是有趣的情况，并非所有情况都会危及生命-
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but some of them cause a lot of discomfort.
但其中一些会引起很多不适。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What is known about the formation of autoimmune conditions, either inheritance, lifestyle factors?
关于自身免疫性疾病的形成（遗传因素、生活方式因素），我们了解多少？
And then what excites you about some of the newer treatments that might be available or are currently available-
然后，是什么让您对可能可用或当前可用的一些较新的治疗方法感到兴奋 -
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for those and other things?
对于那些和其他事情？
It's a big question, but...
这是一个大问题，但是...
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah, it's a big question.
是的，这是一个大问题。
Well, fundamentally, again, this is, I think, where the immune system and our bodies have, I think they have playbooks, like a football team or something, that they can run, and they can put players in particular configurations.
好吧，从根本上讲，我认为，这就是免疫系统和我们的身体所拥有的地方，我认为它们有可以运行的剧本，例如足球队或其他东西，并且可以将球员置于特定的配置中。
And again, we call those archetypes.
再次，我们称这些为原型。
The immune system is trying to do a certain kind of thing.
免疫系统正在尝试做某种事情。
It's genetically and through history, it's wired to work with cells in certain ways.
从基因上和历史上看，它以某种方式与细胞一起工作。
And I think if you look at autoimmunities, there's a view of them that they represent a misplaced immune system that either thinks that it's under attack or it thinks that it's meant to be doing something that it really isn't.
我认为，如果你观察自身免疫，就会发现它们代表了一种错位的免疫系统，要么认为自己受到了攻击，要么认为自己应该做一些实际上不是的事情。
And so the origins of some of those are genetic, for sure.
因此，其中一些的起源肯定是遗传的。
There's in lupus, there's a familial mutation in a receptor that's on a B cell that normally helps turn off the immune system, and it's defective, and so those people are susceptible to getting, they're called autoantibodies.
在狼疮中，B 细胞上的受体存在家族突变，通常有助于关闭免疫系统，但它是有缺陷的，因此这些人很容易感染，它们被称为自身抗体。
That's where the B cells, we've talked a lot about T cells, but B cells are the ones that make antibodies, and they're the ones who you try to jazz up for COVID vaccines.
这就是 B 细胞，我们已经讨论了很多关于 T 细胞的问题，但 B 细胞是产生抗体的细胞，你可以通过它们来为新冠疫苗注入活力。
Those can be overactive, and they can be genetically overactive.
这些可能会过度活跃，而且可能是遗传性的过度活跃。
And one wonders why we'd ever have such genes and why they'd be propagated, except that maybe in some sort of circumstances you need it when there's a big pandemic or something, those people might have a particularly good response.
人们想知道为什么我们会有这样的基因，为什么它们会被传播，除了在某种情况下，当发生大流行病或其他什么情况时，这些人可能会有特别好的反应。
So there's definitely genetic origins of some of these things.
所以其中一些东西肯定有遗传起源。
I think what's interesting, to some extent, is something that you'd alluded to with asthma, where asthma was one of these things that historically would be called an allergy, and it still is an allergy, in where you have inciting things that are grass, pollen, these sorts of things.
我认为在某种程度上，有趣的是你提到的哮喘，哮喘是历史上被称为过敏的东西之一，而且它仍然是一种过敏，其中你有草、花粉等刺激物。
But in a lot of these settings, the concept that that is coming in part and parcel with the immune system recognizing self is a thing.
但在许多这样的环境中，免疫系统识别自我的重要部分是这一概念。
And to the degree that we don't understand some of the diseases as well as we should, given the tools we have today, there's actually work to be done in a lot of these areas where you say, "What is the immune system up to?" Like 10 years ago, we might have just said, I might have taken a lung of a asthmatic patient who died and cut it and look at it in a microscope and say, "Oh, yeah, I can really see that there's thickening of the airways and that's why they couldn't breathe." But like I'm saying, now we can go into those and we can look at every single cell and ask how those are wired together.
在某种程度上，我们对某些疾病的了解还不够充分，鉴于我们今天拥有的工具，在许多这些领域实际上还有很多工作要做，你会说“免疫系统在做什么？”就像十年前，我们可能会说，我可能会取出一个死亡的哮喘患者的肺，切开它，在显微镜下观察，然后说，“哦，是的，我真的可以看到气道增厚，这就是他们无法呼吸的原因。”但就像我说的，现在我们可以深入研究这些问题，我们可以查看每个单元并询问它们是如何连接在一起的。
Is there only one form of asthma?
哮喘只有一种形式吗？
No, there's actually definitely seven or eight.
不，实际上肯定有七八个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
And that's why some people can take the inhalers and it works, and other people can't.
这就是为什么有些人可以服用吸入器并且它有效，而其他人则不能。
Some people, they're very chlorine sensitive.
有些人对氯非常敏感。
They go to a pool and it initiates.
他们去了一个游泳池，它就开始了。
Or cold sensitive.
或者对冷敏感。
So there's variations on what sets up that inflammatory focus, and I would call it an archetype.
因此，引发炎症焦点的因素有多种，我将其称为原型。
Some of them have lots of cells called eosinophils.
其中一些有大量称为嗜酸性粒细胞的细胞。
Other ones have lots of cells called neutrophils.
其他细胞则含有大量称为中性粒细胞的细胞。
So asthma isn't just one disease.
因此，哮喘不仅仅是一种疾病。
It's one symptom, difficulty breathing, but it has many different sort of configurations.
呼吸困难是一种症状，但它有许多不同的表现形式。
And I guess I would just say that in a lot of this domain, we have a study right now that's looking at across a bunch of autoimmunities to figure out whether they have things in common with each other.
我想我只想说，在这个领域的很多方面，我们现在正在进行一项研究，正在研究一系列自身免疫性疾病，以找出它们之间是否有共同点。
And psoriasis is one where you start to see variations, and lupus for sure, and inflammatory bowel disease.
牛皮癣是一种开始出现变异的疾病，当然还有狼疮和炎症性肠病。
And you know this in the clinic because inflammatory bowel disease, you asked about drugs, is a good case where there's a couple different drugs that, for some patients, work really well.
你在诊所就知道这一点，因为炎症性肠病，你问过药物，是一个很好的例子，有几种不同的药物对某些患者来说效果非常好。
TNF therapy, for example, it blocks a cytokine.
例如，TNF 疗法会阻断细胞因子。
And in some people with IBD, it's just really bad diarrhea.
对于一些患有 IBD 的人来说，这只是非常严重的腹泻。
It manifests and very painful.
它表现得非常痛苦。
So there starts to be classes of patients that have responses to these things.
因此，开始有一些患者对这些事情有反应。
Those drugs are exciting because they say you can modulate this.
这些药物令人兴奋，因为他们说你可以调节这一点。
But a little bit like the checkpoint drugs, we don't really understand why one works in one patient and one doesn't.
但有点像检查点药物，我们并不真正理解为什么一种药物对一名患者有效而另一种则无效。
And inflammatory bowel disease as an autoimmunity is pretty tricky too, because people will respond to a drug for a while and then they'll stop.
炎症性肠病作为一种自身免疫性疾病也相当棘手，因为人们会对药物产生一段时间的反应，然后就会停止。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
And then the doctors just have to do this like whack-a-mole thing where they try one and it doesn't work, so they try the next and it doesn't work.
然后医生就必须像打地鼠那样做，他们尝试一种方法但不起作用，所以他们尝试下一种方法但不起作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sounds like psychiatry.
听起来像精神病学。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
It does.
确实如此。
Yeah, there's a lot.
是的，有很多。
It sounds like a-
听起来像是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No disrespect to the psychiatrist.
没有对心理医生的不尊重。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Psychiatrist, no. But you're trying-
心理医生，不。但你正在尝试——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They have a hard job, right?
他们的工作很辛苦，对吗？
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, drugs will work for a while, then they don't work.
我的意思是，药物会起作用一段时间，然后就不起作用了。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Don't work.
别工作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Side effects crop up that never existed before.
以前从未存在过的副作用突然出现。
It's a tough one.
这是一项艰难的任务。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah, agreed.
是的，同意。
So yeah, autoimmunity is a real thing.
所以，是的，自身免疫是真实存在的。
It has, I think it's similar to cancer where we're just with cancer starting to understand the fact that it comes in these different immune flavors.
我认为它与癌症类似，我们刚刚开始了解癌症有不同的免疫特征。
And so the drugs that you try to use, it's clear the immune system can do a lot of good work for us, but what you need to do to it in these different sort of archetypal immune systems is going to be different.
因此，您尝试使用的药物，很明显免疫系统可以为我们做很多好事，但是在这些不同类型的原型免疫系统中您需要做的事情将会有所不同。
You just got a different football team out there playing, or they're running a different play.
你只是有一支不同的足球队在那里比赛，或者他们正在进行不同的比赛。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If somebody has a mild autoimmune condition, like let's say mild psoriasis-
如果某人患有轻度自身免疫性疾病，例如轻度牛皮癣-
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
does that...
那样吗...
I've read, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.
我读过，但这并不一定意味着什么。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've read that that might confer, because it's autoimmune, that might confer them with a bit better viral and bacterial infection resistance.
我读到这可能会赋予它们更好的病毒和细菌感染抵抗力，因为它是自身免疫的。
So, there's a trade-off there.
所以，这里需要权衡。
Like okay, so scalps, the cells are like sloughing off and I think it's Interleukin-17 or something now-
好吧，头皮、细胞就像脱落了，我想是白细胞介素 17 之类的东西——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
like the treatment.
就像治疗一样。
They have some good shampoos for this or-
他们有一些很好的洗发水，或者-
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but-
但是——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
And it's anti-Interleukin-17.
它是抗白细胞介素 17 的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And anti-
并反
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
Interleukin-17, but that individual is maybe better at fighting out other infections.
Interleukin-17，但这个人可能更擅长抵抗其他感染。
So, given there's an anti-Interleukin-17 treatment that works-
因此，鉴于有一种有效的抗白细胞介素 17 治疗方法——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
cool.
酷。
Like no flaky, itchy scalp, and yet you're more resistant to infection.
就像没有头皮屑、发痒一样，但您对感染的抵抗力更强。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you could see how it's adaptive in the modern context.
所以你可以看到它如何适应现代环境。
And now severe psoriasis can be very disruptive for people.
现在，严重的牛皮癣对人们来说可能具有很大的破坏性。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And people might wonder, like are we really talking about psoriasis?
人们可能会想，我们真的在谈论牛皮癣吗？
But I think it's sort of an interesting case point for why autoimmunity could actually be useful.
但我认为这是一个有趣的案例，说明了为什么自身免疫实际上是有用的。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not always the case that it's there to give us asthma or-
它并不总是会导致我们哮喘或-
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Well, a lot of-
嗯，很多——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
flaky scalp.
头皮片状。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
You know, we could talk about there's a lot of disease states, the argument for why we would ever have a sickle cell gene, this is the one that causes people to have hemophilia, and it's a lot of sub-Saharan African gene, people from that origin have this, is that it's actually defensive against malaria, it seems to be the case.
你知道，我们可以谈论有很多疾病状态，关于为什么我们会有镰状细胞基因的争论，这是导致人们患有血友病的基因，它是很多撒哈拉以南非洲的基因，来自那个起源的人有这个，是它实际上可以防御疟疾，似乎是这样。
So having that, I think this is true a lot of these situations where the diversity of the human population over time, by having some of these things that make some people hypersensitive to maybe a viral infection at the cost of having things like psoriasis pop up or various other autoimmunities, is the only way that a billion strong population has to move forward.
因此，我认为在很多情况下都是如此，随着时间的推移，人口的多样性是十亿人口必须前进的唯一途径，因为其中一些因素使一些人对病毒感染过敏，而代价是出现牛皮癣或各种其他自身免疫性疾病。
And I always give this example because I think it's a really straightforward one.
我总是举这个例子，因为我认为这是一个非常简单的例子。
If you take a flask of bacteria and you put them in glucose, which is like sugar, like you put in your coffee, maybe sucrose, either one.
如果你拿一瓶细菌，把它们放入葡萄糖中，这就像糖，就像你放入咖啡中一样，也许是蔗糖，或者其中一种。
You put them in a simple sugar, and you watch the colony grow.
你把它们放入简单的糖中，然后观察菌落的生长。
You'll get these cells that grow really, really fast.
你会得到这些细胞，它们生长得非常非常快。
The bacteria becomes billions, trillions of individual cells.
细菌变成了数十亿、数万亿的单个细胞。
But there's almost always some just losers that are dividing slowly.
但几乎总是有一些失败者正在慢慢分裂。
And for whatever reason, the system always springs those off.
不管出于什么原因，系统总是会弹出这些。
You're like, "Why would you do that?
你会说，“你为什么要这么做？
Why wouldn't just the winners win?" But if you take a little bit of that culture and you put it into galactose, which is a milk sugar, often the ones that were winners don't win anymore, and it's from the loser pool that the new ones emerge.
为什么不只有胜利者才能获胜呢？”但如果你把这种文化的一点点放入半乳糖（一种奶糖）中，通常那些获胜者就不再获胜了，而新的胜利者就会从失败者池中出现。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
And this is a case of a crowd fitness that comes from diversity of genes.
这是一个来自基因多样性的人群适应性的例子。
And so some of these things that make some of us susceptible to disease are also, as you're pointing out, in other situations, going to be quite good for you.
因此，正如您所指出的，其中一些使我们中的一些人容易患病的因素在其他情况下也对您非常有好处。
And that seems unfair at the time, that you have these kind of bad genes, but a different day you would've been happy, right?
当时这似乎不公平，你有这些坏基因，但换一天你会很高兴，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
So I think there's a lot to be said.
所以我认为有很多话要说。
And that's also why a lot of the things that we look at anecdotally, somebody takes a supplement and it works for them.
这也是为什么我们观察到的很多事情，有人服用补充剂并且它对他们有效。
I don't know how much you know about this literature, but the differences in your and mine vitamin requirements is going to be quite profound because the metabolic enzymes we have for the vitamins that we might take in are going to be different between us.
我不知道您对这篇文献了解多少，但是您和我的维生素需求差异将非常巨大，因为我们可能摄入的维生素代谢酶会有所不同。
And so these FDA limits, these numbers, are averages.
因此，FDA 的这些限制、这些数字都是平均值。
Some people may need five times that amount of vitamin X, other people may need a fifth.
有些人可能需要五倍的维生素 X，而其他人可能需要五倍。
And that's-
那就是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I think this is super critical.
不，我认为这非常关键。
The supplement world is kind of like scattershot.
补充剂的世界有点像漫无目的。
While I appreciate the rational grounding in all of it, I think a thread throughout today's conversation, I think that I picked up on the fact that we covered things like peptides and things like that, and I'm not certain about the peptide question across the board.
虽然我很欣赏所有这些的理性基础，但我认为贯穿今天谈话的一个主线是，我认为我认识到我们涵盖了肽之类的东西这一事实，而且我不确定全面的肽问题。
It's clear some are beneficial.
很明显，有些是有益的。
It's clear some are still experimental.
很明显，有些仍处于实验阶段。
I'm just a big fan of more data.
我只是热衷于更多数据。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And more data collected the right ways and communicated the right ways, as the same way with the vaccines and all the rest.
更多的数据以正确的方式收集并以正确的方式传达，就像疫苗和其他所有数据一样。
You have an amazing Substack.
你有一个令人惊叹的子堆栈。
I know that because I've spent time there.
我知道这一点，因为我在那里度过了一段时间。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Oh, thanks.
哦，谢谢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Part of the reason we invited you here today is to learn about the immune system, and we barely talked about cancer, I realize.
我们今天邀请您来到这里的部分原因是为了了解免疫系统，我意识到我们几乎没有谈论癌症。
We're going to have to get you back to talk about that, but you've done an amazing job of educating us on the immune system.
我们得让你回来谈论这个问题，但你在免疫系统方面的教育做得非常出色。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Oh, thanks.
哦，谢谢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I really want to thank you-
我真的很想谢谢你-
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Thanks
谢谢
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and speak on behalf of many, many people for that.
并代表很多很多人为此发言。
Never before has somebody presented in the ways that you have.
以前从未有人以您这样的方式进行展示。
And, as somebody who thinks in analogy and likes to teach in analogy, I really appreciate that -
而且，作为一个用类比思维并喜欢用类比教学的人，我真的很欣赏 -
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Thanks
谢谢
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that stance.
那个立场。
What inspired you to get into-
是什么激励你进入——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
public education about science and health before coming on this podcast?
在参加这个播客之前先进行有关科学和健康的公共教育吗？
And by the way, everyone should check out Max's Substack.
顺便说一句，每个人都应该看看 Max 的 Substack。
We'll put a link to it in the show notes.
我们将在演出笔记中放置一个链接。
It's so thoughtful, so nuanced, so relevant to all the issues that we're talking about, if not directly, then in the general contour, and in some cases directly, and I imagine you're going to continue doing this.
它是如此深思熟虑，如此细致入微，与我们正在讨论的所有问题如此相关，如果不是直接的话，那么在总体轮廓上，在某些情况下是直接的，我想你会继续这样做。
So what inspired you to do it, and how can we make sure that you continue to do it?
那么是什么激励您这样做，我们如何确保您继续这样做？
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, thank you for the call-out.
嗯，谢谢你的来电。
It's something I've been trying to work on for about 10 years, and it really started when A group of us were hanging around after a conference, and we were talking about some of the issues with science in society.
这是我大约 10 年来一直在努力做的事情，它真正开始是当我们一群人在一次会议结束后闲逛，我们正在讨论一些社会科学问题时。
And there were many.
而且有很多。
There's many.
有很多。
We've surfaced a few of them today.
今天我们已经展示了其中的一些。
But I think something that you guys are working on is the capacity for everyone else to think as a scientist.
但我认为你们正在研究的是让其他人像科学家一样思考的能力。
You can ask yourself, "Oh, why don't people agree with this data that you show and take the action that seems logical?" But then you present it in such a way that they can't...
你可以问自己，“哦，为什么人们不同意你展示的这些数据并采取看似合乎逻辑的行动？”但你以一种他们无法...的方式呈现它
Two things are important about it.
有两件事很重要。
I think one of them is if you present the information in a format that isn't familiar, you're not going to be able to teach anybody anything about what's important.
我认为其中之一是，如果您以不熟悉的格式呈现信息，您将无法向任何人传授任何重要的信息。
But the other thing is that, we spent some time talking about this, and we consulted some other folks that are in science comms, and we realized the other thing is that if you say you're a scientist, it's not a neutral statement.
但另一件事是，我们花了一些时间讨论这个问题，并咨询了科学通讯领域的其他一些人，我们意识到另一件事是，如果你说你是一名科学家，这不是一个中立的声明。
Science has a history, and history is stronger than science, actually.
科学有历史，而历史实际上比科学更强大。
So the history, there's hesitancy among African American, for example, to take drugs because of things, the history of Tuskegee, which is like 80 years ago.
所以历史上，非裔美国人对吸毒有犹豫，因为一些事情，塔斯基吉的历史，大约是 80 年前。
However long ago, 60 years ago.
然而很久以前，60年前。
It's not in their lifetime, many of these people.
很多人的一生都没有这样的经历。
And so part of the realization was maybe part of what we really should be doing as scientists is part of our job should be to figure out how we relate to other humans.
因此，认识到这一点也许是我们真正应该做的事情的一部分，因为科学家的工作的一部分应该是弄清楚我们如何与其他人类建立关系。
And there's a painting of this in obviously the media, and things help this happen because it makes it interesting to have a nerdy scientist.
显然媒体上有一幅这样的图画，事情帮助了这一切的发生，因为它让有一个书呆子科学家变得有趣。
And you can be a nerdy scientist.
你也可以成为一名书呆子科学家。
I heard you.
我听到你了。
But also, you're a human.
但同时，你也是一个人。
You're a human being.
你是一个人。
There's even foibles to loves and hates and-
爱与恨甚至都有弱点——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Certainly foibles.
当然是缺点。
I have plenty of those.
我有很多这样的。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
We can get in that after this podcast.
我们可以在这个播客之后讨论这个问题。
But this concept of if we want to relate, if we want to have impact of the work you do, if you want it to be relevant, at some point, you have to...
但是这个概念是，如果我们想要建立联系，如果我们想要对你所做的工作产生影响，如果你希望它具有相关性，那么在某些时候，你必须......
Science as a field needs to make sure that it doesn't ostracize itself from people.
科学作为一个领域需要确保它不会排斥人类。
And I think one of the issues there, I'll just use the word ostracize, is separate, is this concept that we speak in our vocabulary that just gets very precise, and we forget that if you hear a foreign language, and you hear one word that you don't recognize, it throws you off for a few sentences.
我认为其中一个问题，我只用“排斥”这个词，是独立的，我们在词汇中所说的这个概念变得非常精确，我们忘记了，如果你听到一门外语，你听到一个你不认识的单词，它会让你迷失几句话。
And next thing you know, you don't know what people are talking about.
接下来你就会知道，你不知道人们在谈论什么。
And I think that concept that, and again, this is where I think bringing it down a level and saying, "Let's give it analogy.
我认为这个概念，再一次，这就是我认为将其降低一个层次并说：“让我们打个比方。
Let's give it..." That strikes me as really, really important to the impact that you can have with your science and that science can have in terms of teaching people what we could do better, which I think we all want to do.
让我们给它......”这让我印象深刻，这对于你的科学所能产生的影响非常非常重要，而且科学可以在教导人们我们可以做得更好方面发挥作用，我认为我们都想做。
But if you end up thinking that science is a distrusted, weird collection of people that have different motivations and designs, then you've lost.
但如果你最终认为科学是一群不信任的、奇怪的、有着不同动机和设计的人的集合，那么你就输了。
The potential for it to do good is gone.
它做好事的潜力已经消失了。
So the Substack came about it because I was like, well, I need to write as a person a little bit more and tell about some of the time that you spend on this and why it matters and what it's like to do this work, and in some respects, also, what it's like to lose in this, which happens way more often than the...
所以 Substack 之所以出现，是因为我想，好吧，我需要作为一个人多写一点，并讲述你在这方面花费的一些时间，为什么它很重要，以及做这项工作的感觉，以及在某些方面，还有，在这方面失去的感觉，这种情况比……发生得更频繁。
It's like a casino, right?
这就像赌场，对吧？
In science, you hear the bells, and some cool device comes out, but there's a bunch of people pulling the arm, and they're not winning.
在科学领域，你会听到钟声，一些很酷的设备出现了，但有一群人在拉动手臂，但他们没有获胜。
And so-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well put.
说得好。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
So I feel like that's an important part of this, that again, it's not the glory story always.
所以我觉得这是其中的重要组成部分，再说一次，这并不总是荣耀的故事。
Some of the best-selling books about science are the wins.
一些有关科学的畅销书是胜利者。
But it might be more relatable at some point to get all of it.
但在某些时候，获得所有这些可能会更有意义。
So that's what I was trying to put together, and at the same time, I think the immune system is also just so relevant and so important, and it's got all these different facets and these archetypes and these sorts of things that it's doing that we scratch the surface today.
这就是我试图整合的内容，同时，我认为免疫系统也非常相关和重要，它具有所有这些不同的方面和这些原型以及它正在做的事情，我们今天只触及表面。
So anyway, thanks for calling that.
不管怎样，谢谢你打来电话。
I've been-
我曾经-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
...
...
working on it for a bit.
努力一下。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I hope you continue to, and thank you so much for the work you've been doing in your laboratory and all the people in your laboratory doing-
好吧，我希望你继续这样做，并且非常感谢你在实验室所做的工作以及实验室里所有的人所做的工作——
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that work.
那个工作。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because now you're the one calling the shots while other people do experiments.
因为现在你是发号施令的人，而其他人则在做实验。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But for your advocacy for science and public education, it's huge.
但对于您对科学和公共教育的倡导来说，这是巨大的。
We need more people like you, but you've certainly put your own unique signature on it, and the Substack reflects that.
我们需要更多像您这样的人，但您肯定已经在上面加上了自己独特的签名，子堆栈反映了这一点。
It's an incredibly interesting set of reads, and people will really learn.
这是一套非常有趣的读物，人们会真正学到东西。
So that's essential, especially in this day and age, but even not in this day and age, science is just really cool, and with all the meaningless drivel out there, it's nice to go to a place like your Substack, and I'm speaking to the audience now.
所以这很重要，尤其是在当今时代，但即使不是在当今时代，科学也确实很酷，尽管有那么多毫无意义的胡言乱语，但很高兴能去像你们的 Substack 这样的地方，我现在正在对观众讲话。
You will learn if you read Max's Substack.
如果您阅读 Max 的 Substack，您就会了解。
You will be inspired by certain things, and I promise you, so I'm saying this intentionally, mark my words, at some point, somebody's going to contact you that they decided to study the immune system, or they learned something, or they explored a novel treatment with their physician in a given unfortunate or maybe even fortunate situation that bettered their lives.
你会受到某些事情的启发，我向你保证，所以我是故意这么说的，记住我的话，在某个时候，有人会联系你，他们决定研究免疫系统，或者他们学到了一些东西，或者他们在一个特定的不幸或什至幸运的情况下与他们的医生探索了一种新的治疗方法，改善了他们的生活。
It's incredible what Substacks and conversations like the one you've been willing to have today and going forward can really do.
像您今天和未来所愿意拥有的子堆栈和对话的真正作用是令人难以置信的。
So thank you so much.
非常感谢。
Definitely come back again and tell us about cancer and other things because I took us off course quite a lot, but I had a great time talking about all of this, and I'm going to be thinking about a lot of it and really appreciate you.
一定会再回来告诉我们关于癌症和其他事情，因为我让我们偏离了很多轨道，但我在谈论所有这些方面度过了一段愉快的时光，我会考虑很多，并且非常感谢你。
Dr. Max Krummel:
马克斯·克鲁梅尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, same here.
嗯，这里也一样。
Thanks so much.
非常感谢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Max Krummel.
感谢您参加今天与 Max Krummel 博士的讨论。
To learn more about his work and to find a link to his superb Substack, please see the links in the show note caption.
要了解有关他的工作的更多信息并找到他出色的 Substack 的链接，请参阅节目注释标题中的链接。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的关注按钮来关注播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。
And you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.
您现在可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客或嘉宾有意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑的主题，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这本书是我花了五年多时间编写的，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验。
And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
它涵盖了从睡眠到运动再到压力控制的所有协议，以及与注意力和动机相关的协议，当然，我为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." And if you're not already following me on social media, I am hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 hubermanlab。
So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。
Again, it's hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
再说一遍，所有社交媒体平台上都是 hubermanlab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available completely zero cost.
所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件即可。
And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Max Krummel.
再次感谢您参加今天与 Max Krummel 博士的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。