How to Set & Achieve Massive Goals | Alex Honnold
Andrew Huberman: Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
Andrew Huberman：欢迎来到 Huberman 实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
Andrew Huberman: I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，我是斯坦福大学医学院的神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Alex Honnold.
今天我的客人是亚历克斯·霍诺德。
Alex Honnold is a professional rock climber.
亚历克斯·霍诺德 (Alex Honnold) 是一名专业攀岩运动员。
Andrew Huberman: He's best known for successfully free soloing, meaning climbing with no ropes or latching on of any kind, El Capitan, also called El Cap, which is a nearly 3,000-foot climb in Yosemite National Park.
Andrew Huberman：他以成功的自由独奏而闻名，这意味着无需绳索或任何形式的攀爬，El Capitan，也称为 El Cap，是约塞米蒂国家公园内近 3,000 英尺的攀登。
It was also, of course, the topic and focus of the incredible movie "Free Solo," which if you haven't seen, you absolutely should watch.
当然，这也是令人难以置信的电影“Free Solo”的主题和焦点，如果您还没有看过，您绝对应该观看。
I've wanted to talk to Alex for a long time now.
我想和亚历克斯谈谈已经很久了。
I'm not a rock climber.
我不是攀岩运动员。
I've tried it a few times.
我已经尝试过几次了。
But I've been extremely curious to understand Alex's mental frame around learning and training and his broader philosophy on life.
但我非常想了解亚历克斯关于学习和培训的心理框架以及他更广泛的人生哲学。
Andrew Huberman: My interest stems from the fact that Alex's free solo of El Cap, and his other climbs make him one of the most accomplished and innovative athletes in all of history.
Andrew Huberman：我的兴趣源于这样一个事实：Alex 自由攀登 El Cap 峰以及他的其他攀登使他成为历史上最有成就和创新的运动员之一。
And of course, the free solo of El Cap is extremely high-risk and high-consequence.
当然，El Cap 的徒手攀岩风险极高，后果也非常严重。
Today, we discuss how to envision and make progress towards your goals and how to merge the demands of daily work and family life with incremental training for spectacularly big or long challenges of any kind.
今天，我们讨论如何设想并朝着您的目标取得进展，以及如何将日常工作和家庭生活的需求与增量训练结合起来，以应对任何类型的巨大或长期挑战。
Andrew Huberman: Alex makes clear that it's essential and possible to build your capacity to exert effort and how to do that in a regimented way so as to bring seemingly impossible goals within your reach.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：亚历克斯明确表示，培养努力的能力是必要且可能的，以及如何以有条理的方式做到这一点，以便将看似不可能的目标变为现实。
We also discuss how coming to terms with one's own mortality is actually one of the best motivators for building a great life and why most people hide from that reality, and as a result, end up living much smaller lives than they otherwise would.
我们还讨论了如何接受自己的死亡实际上是建设美好生活的最佳动力之一，以及为什么大多数人会逃避这一现实，并因此最终过着比原本要小得多的生活。
We also discuss training, literally what to do to build strength and endurance, not just for sake of rock climbing, but just generally.
我们还讨论了训练，实际上是如何增强力量和耐力，不仅仅是为了攀岩，而是一般性的。
Andrew Huberman: And that takes us into discussions about weight training, body weight training, running, hiking, and a bunch of other things that you can apply.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：这让我们讨论了重量训练、体重训练、跑步、徒步旅行以及许多其他可以应用的事情。
Even if you have zero interest in rock climbing, today's conversation with Alex Honnold will definitely change the way that you think about your life, what you can make of it, and how to go about that.
即使您对攀岩的兴趣为零，今天与 Alex Honnold 的对话也肯定会改变您思考生活的方式、您可以如何度过以及如何度过。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是将有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息带给公众。
In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Alex Honnold.
现在我与亚历克斯·霍诺德进行讨论。
Andrew Huberman: Alex Honnold, welcome.
安德鲁·休伯曼：亚历克斯·霍诺德，欢迎。
Alex Honnold: Thanks for having me.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：谢谢你邀请我。
Andrew Huberman: I think Free Solo is remarkable for a ton of reasons, but as a good friend of mine, who I think you know, Michael Muller, photographer, he said, before I'd seen the film, he said, "It's wild because you're terrified as an observer the entire time, but you also know that Alex survives from the very beginning." Which is a very unusual-
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我认为《徒手攀爬》之所以引人注目，有很多原因，但作为我的好朋友，我想你认识的摄影师迈克尔·穆勒，在我看这部电影之前，他说，“这很疯狂，因为你作为一个观察者一直感到害怕，但你也知道亚历克斯从一开始就活了下来。”这是一个非常不寻常的——
Alex Honnold: But I think some people don't know that.
Alex Honnold：但我认为有些人不知道这一点。
Andrew Huberman: Oh, really?
安德鲁·休伯曼：哦，真的吗？
Alex Honnold: Some people watch the movie and they literally have no idea what it's about or what's going on, and they spend the whole movie being like, "Oh, my God, what's going to happen?"
亚历克斯·霍诺德：有些人看这部电影时，他们根本不知道它是关于什么或发生了什么，他们在整部电影中都在想，“哦，天哪，会发生什么？”
Andrew Huberman: Okay, so I just spoiled it.
Andrew Huberman：好吧，我只是破坏了它。
Alex Honnold: I think-- Oh, yeah, yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：我想——哦，是的，是的。
Well, at this point, I'm like, "Nobody cares.
好吧，在这一点上，我想，“没人关心。
It's old news."
这已经是旧闻了。”
Andrew Huberman: Well, it's a spectacular feat, and we can go into that feat, but I'd actually like to drill in a little bit to just your process in general.
Andrew Huberman：嗯，这是一项了不起的壮举，我们可以深入探讨这一壮举，但我实际上想稍微深入了解一下您的总体流程。
I'm sure that's changed over time, and feel free to talk about that.
我相信随着时间的推移，情况会发生变化，请随意谈论这一点。
But, you know, I'm very curious about sort of notions of intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation, right?
但是，你知道，我对内在动机与外在动机的概念很好奇，对吧？
And I think Free Solo is also remarkable because you had cameras on you.
我认为 Free Solo 也很了不起，因为你的镜头对准了你。
It was obviously to be recorded, and you knew you had cameras on you.
这显然是要被记录下来的，而且你知道你有摄像机在盯着你。
Andrew Huberman: And yet, I always thought of climbing as kind of a solitary sport, or things that people do in small groups kind of off the grid.
Andrew Huberman：然而，我一直认为攀岩是一项孤独的运动，或者是人们在脱离网格的小团体中进行的事情。
Things have changed now with social media, the way everything can be posted very quickly or even run live.
现在社交媒体已经改变了一切，一切都可以很快发布，甚至可以实时运行。
But when you think about sort of the work that you're doing in terms of progressing and goals and kind of milestones for yourself, how do you envision that?
但是，当您考虑自己正在做的工作的进展、目标和里程碑时，您对此有何看法？
Is this in like a-- Do you have a diary?
这就像——你有日记吗？
Do you have a process where you sit back and you think, you know, "What would be awesome for me to experience?
你是否有一个过程，让你坐下来思考，“对我来说，体验什么是很棒的事情？
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Would people like to see it?" What's the sort of balance between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation for you?
安德鲁·休伯曼：人们愿意看吗？”对你来说，内在动机和外在动机之间的平衡是怎样的？
Alex Honnold: So basically, I think climbing is always intrinsically motivated.
Alex Honnold：所以基本上，我认为攀登总是有内在动机的。
I mean, I started climbing when I was a child.
我的意思是，我小时候就开始爬山。
I've always loved climbing.
我一直很喜欢攀岩。
I love the movement of climbing, I love the feeling of it, I love the whole experience, you know, and just everything about it's great.
我喜欢攀岩的运动，我喜欢它的感觉，我喜欢整个体验，你知道，一切都很棒。
But then, you know, now as a professional climber, obviously there is that extrinsic motivation as well where you're like, "Oh, this is how I make a living." And so I think with the film "Free Solo," it was a really interesting balance of the two where it's like, this is something that I'd love to do for myself and even if no one else in the world existed, I'd want to do this thing.
但是，你知道，现在作为一名职业登山者，显然也存在外在动机，你会说，“哦，这就是我谋生的方式。”所以我认为通过电影《Free Solo》，这是两者之间非常有趣的平衡，就像，这是我喜欢为自己做的事情，即使世界上没有其他人存在，我也想做这件事。
Alex Honnold: But then you also know that if the film turns out well, which it did, you know, it's going to be great for your career, it's going to be great for whatever.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：但你也知道，如果这部电影效果很好，它确实如此，你知道，这对你的职业生涯会有很大帮助，对任何事情都会有好处。
And so, like, there is that extrinsic motivation as well.
因此，也有外在动机。
And so then you're always trying to parse out, like, which part is which, and, you know, because you don't want to...
所以你总是试图解析出哪个部分是哪个，而且，你知道，因为你不想......
particularly with free soloing, you don't want to be too extrinsically motivated because you don't want to get pushed into something that you're not prepared for or that you shouldn't be doing.
特别是在徒手攀登时，您不想受到太多外在的激励，因为您不想被迫去做一些您没有准备好或不应该做的事情。
Alex Honnold: Of course, you know, even being intrinsically motivated, you can do something you shouldn't.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：当然，你知道，即使是出于内在动机，你也可以做一些你不应该做的事情。
I don't know, I mean, but you're just constantly thinking about those things as a climber.
我不知道，我的意思是，但作为一名登山者，你只是不断地思考这些事情。
Andrew Huberman: In order to free solo El Cap, did you memorize sequences or is it more sort of like motifs where you kind of know that you're going to do any number of different things in a given pitch?
Andrew Huberman：为了自由独奏 El Cap，你是否记住了序列，或者它更像是你知道你将在给定音调中做许多不同事情的主题？
Alex Honnold: It depends.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：这要看情况。
So for the hardest parts, I memorized, like for sure, memorized every aspect of it.
因此，对于最难的部分，我记住了，当然，记住了它的各个方面。
But that's only the hardest part, so that was maybe like a third of the route.
但这只是最难的部分，所以这可能是路线的三分之一。
And then for the easiest third, and some of it is actually quite easy.
然后是最简单的第三个，其中一些实际上非常简单。
Some of it's like even a non-climber could climb small sections of the wall.
有些就像即使是不会攀爬的人也可以攀爬墙壁的一小部分。
Like, there are parts that are quite easy here and there.
就像，有些部分到处都很简单。
You know, it's like not the bulk, but so for the easy parts, you just know that you can do it and you don't have to stress it.
你知道，这不像是大块的，但对于简单的部分，你只知道你可以做到，你不必强调它。
Alex Honnold: And then the medium parts, kind of, like, the remaining third of the wall, you sort of remember, kind of like you said, motifs.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：然后是中间部分，就像墙的剩余三分之一，你记得，就像你说的，图案。
You might know the hardest part and you just kind of know that it's going to be fine, but you don't have to memorize it per se.
你可能知道最难的部分，你只是知道它会没问题，但你不必记住它本身。
But certainly, I knew the route very, very well.
但当然，我非常非常熟悉这条路线。
You know, you just know all the things that you have to know.
你知道，你只知道你必须知道的所有事情。
Andrew Huberman: You recognize not just holds, but, like, visceral sensations, like this feels different or-- Because I imagine conditions change, right?
安德鲁·休伯曼：你不仅认识到握持，而且认识到内脏感觉，就像这种感觉不同，或者--因为我想象条件会改变，对吧？
I mean, weather conditions, heat on the rock shadows on the rock.
我的意思是，天气条件、岩石上的热量、岩石上的阴影。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, but not as much as you might think because I was only climbing it in shade.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，但没有你想象的那么多，因为我只是在阴凉处攀登。
Like, in the springtime, that whole west side of the wall stays in the shade until 11:00 or noonish in the morning.
就像春天的时候，整个西侧的墙一直处于阴凉处，直到 11:00 或早上中午。
So, you go at 4:00 in the morning and then you have sort of eight hours of solid shade.
所以，你早上 4:00 去，然后你就有八个小时的阴影。
So normally, the temperature and the conditions feel relatively stable.
所以通常情况下，温度和条件感觉相对稳定。
And you spend the whole season working on it, so you kind of know that tomorrow's going to feel the same as it did today, roughly, you know?
你花了整个赛季的时间来努力，所以你知道明天的感觉会和今天一样，大致上，你知道吗？
And so, it's all within a relatively narrow band.
因此，这一切都在一个相对狭窄的范围内。
Alex Honnold: Particularly in the spring, which is why I did it in the springtime.
Alex Honnold：特别是在春天，这就是我在春天这样做的原因。
In the fall and the autumn, it's a little bit different because the sun is lower in the sky, so it gets sun much earlier and it actually is way hotter, counterintuitively.
在秋天和秋天，情况有点不同，因为太阳在天空中较低，所以太阳晒得更早，而且实际上更热，这与直觉相反。
It's, like, colder when it's in the shade but then hotter when it's in the sun.
就像在阴凉处比较冷，但在阳光下则比较热。
And anyways, that makes it harder for climbing, obviously.
不管怎样，这显然会让攀登变得更加困难。
But when I free soloed El Cap, I was spending three or four months a year in Yosemite every year.
但当我徒手攀登 El Cap 峰时，我每年都会在优胜美地待上三四个月。
You know, a month or two every spring and every autumn.
你知道，每年春天和秋天都会有一两个月。
And so you're spending four months a year in a place, you just know how it feels, you know?
所以你每年在一个地方呆四个月，你就知道那是什么感觉，知道吗？
It's like you're used to getting up that early, you're used to climbing on the wall and you're just kind of like, "Oh, it's going to be another beautiful day on the rock."
就好像你习惯了那么早起床，你习惯了爬上岩壁，你就会想，“哦，这将是岩石上又一个美好的一天。”
Alex Honnold: And actually, the day that I did the free solo of El Cap, it was actually a little more humid and a little warmer than I maybe...
Alex Honnold：事实上，我在 El Cap 进行自由攀登的那天，实际上比我想象的更潮湿、更温暖一点……
than would have been optimal.
比本来是最佳的。
Like, it's not what I would have chosen.
就像，这不是我会选择的。
But that's just the way it was that day and I was kind of like, "Well, this is my day," you know?
但这就是那天的情况，我有点像，“好吧，这是我的一天，”你知道吗？
You kind of just have to do the thing.
你只需要做这件事。
But it'd been, like, overcast that night.
但那天晚上，天气阴沉沉的。
And you know when it's cloudy at night, the lows don't drop as low?
你知道晚上多云时，最低气温不会降得那么低吗？
And so I woke up and it was, like, kind of muggy-ish feeling.
然后我就醒了，感觉有点闷热。
I was like, "It's not great for being 4:00 in the morning." It feels kind of gross.
我当时想，“凌晨 4:00 不太好。”感觉有点恶心。
But I was like, "This is my day," and it was fine.
但我当时想，“这是我的一天”，一切都很好。
Andrew Huberman: So you form a relationship with the rock, you kind of like learn to recognize its different states.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以你与岩石建立了关系，你有点像学会识别它的不同状态。
When you did it and completed it, because I know you set out one day and then you called it off.
当你做到并完成它时，因为我知道你有一天出发了，然后你取消了。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, that was in the autumn.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，那是在秋天。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
Alex Honnold: That was the season before.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：那是前一个赛季。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: And, basically the season was ending, like, storms were coming in the next week type deal, and it was like, the season was winding down.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：基本上，赛季即将结束，就像下周类型的交易中即将到来的风暴一样，赛季即将结束。
It was kind of like, "Well, I should at least take a shot," because I'd done a lot of prep and I felt mostly ready.
这有点像，“好吧，我至少应该尝试一下”，因为我做了很多准备，而且我感觉已经准备好了。
And it turns out I just wasn't ready-ready, and so I wound up bailing.
事实证明我还没有做好准备，所以我最终放弃了。
But that was kind of my end of the season, like, "I think I can squeak this in," knowing that if I couldn't squeak it in then, then I'd have to wait six more months.
但这就是我赛季的结束，就像，“我想我可以勉强做到这一点”，因为我知道如果我当时不能勉强做到这一点，那么我就必须再等六个月。
And with the pressure of the film crew and all that stuff, knowing that there are all these people, like, working and waiting for you, you're kind of like, "Well, I ought to at least try to get this done." because like all these people are waiting on me.
面对摄制组和所有这些事情的压力，知道有这么多人在工作和等待你，你会有点像，“好吧，我至少应该尝试完成这件事。”因为就像所有这些人都在等我一样。
But as it turns out, I just didn't quite have it yet.
但事实证明，我只是还没有完全拥有它。
And then when I ultimately did do it in the spring, I was much better prepared, felt way better, the whole experience worked out better.
当我最终在春天做到这一点时，我准备得更好，感觉更好，整个体验效果更好。
So now in retrospect, I'm like, "Oh, I'm glad that it played out that way," because it was better.
所以现在回想起来，我想，“哦，我很高兴事情是这样的，”因为这样更好。
But at the time it was, you know, I was like, "Oh, God, I failed on this thing.
但当时，你知道，我当时想，“哦，上帝，我在这件事上失败了。
All these people are watching, it's embarrassing." You know, it was all very stressful at the time.
所有这些人都在看着，这很尴尬。”你知道，当时压力很大。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, the external pressures have to be, you know pretty mighty especially when they're your friends.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，外部压力一定是，你知道，特别是当他们是你的朋友时。
I guess one could imagine, like when it's just business, you can just be like, "Well, it's just business." But yeah, you had a lot of friends up there with you.
我想人们可以想象，就像当这只是生意时，你可以说，“好吧，这只是生意。”但是，是的，你有很多朋友和你在一起。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: For me, the thing is that if I'm going to go climb the wall, you know, I start climbing at 4:30 in the morning or 5:00 or something.
Alex Honnold：对我来说，问题是如果我要去爬墙，你知道，我会在早上 4:30 或 5:00 左右开始攀爬。
So that means some of my friends, to get in position at the top of the wall, are getting up at, like, 1:00 in the morning and then hiking to the top of the mountain with a heavy backpack.
所以这意味着我的一些朋友，为了到达山顶的位置，大约在凌晨 1:00 起床，然后背着沉重的背包徒步到山顶。
And if you're asking a bunch of your buddies to go hiking at 1:00 in the morning, like, you better live up to your end of the thing, you know?
如果你邀请一群朋友在凌晨 1:00 去徒步旅行，你最好完成这件事，知道吗？
Like, if you say you're going to do something, you better actually do the thing because your friends...
就像，如果你说你要做某事，你最好实际去做，因为你的朋友......
Obviously, no one's complaining.
显然，没有人抱怨。
No one is pressuring me, no one's-- But at the same time, you don't want to bail.
没有人向我施加压力，没有人—— 但与此同时，你又不想保释。
Andrew Huberman: Sure.
安德鲁·休伯曼：当然。
Alex Honnold: Like, it's pretty embarrassing if you tell someone you're going to do something and then you just can't do it.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：就像，如果你告诉某人你要做某事，但你就是做不到，那是非常尴尬的。
Andrew Huberman: Well, they certainly wanted the outcome to be only one way and-
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯，他们当然希望结果只有一种，而且——
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
And they were all super positive and supportive and it's all great, but you still can't help but feel that pressure.
他们都非常积极和支持，这一切都很棒，但你仍然情不自禁地感受到压力。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Sure.
安德鲁·休伯曼：当然。
Well, it certainly worked out.
嗯，这确实成功了。
I'm curious, on a scale of one to 10, 10 being a total certainty along that trajectory, when you completed it, were there any phases where you felt you had to improvise against the original plan?
我很好奇，按照从 1 到 10 的等级，10 是沿着这条轨迹的完全确定性，当你完成它时，是否有任何阶段你觉得你必须根据最初的计划即兴发挥？
Alex Honnold: You mean on the day of the actual free solo?
亚历克斯·霍诺德：你是说在真正的自由独奏当天？
Andrew Huberman: On the day of the actual completion of the free solo on El Cap.
Andrew Huberman：在 El Cap 峰真正完成自由独奏的那天。
Alex Honnold: No, on the day I was 100 percent.
Alex Honnold：不，那天我百分百状态。
Everything was perfect, I knew exactly what to do, it was all amazing.
一切都很完美，我清楚地知道该怎么做，这一切都太棒了。
But it took a really long time to get there.
但花了很长时间才到达那里。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: You know, it was like, literally years of building up to it and then months of preparation and everything.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：你知道，这就像是几年的准备，然后是几个月的准备和一切。
But no, on the day, it was perfect.
但不，那天，它是完美的。
Andrew Huberman: I'd like to take a quick break and thank our sponsor, Joovv.
Andrew Huberman：我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 Joovv。
Joovv makes medical grade red light therapy devices.
Joovv 生产医疗级红光治疗设备。
Now, if there's one thing that I have consistently emphasized on this podcast, it is the incredible impact that light can have on our biology.
现在，如果我在这个播客中一直强调一件事，那就是光对我们的生物学产生的令人难以置信的影响。
Andrew Huberman: Now, in addition to sunlight, red light and near infrared light sources have been shown to have positive effects on improving numerous aspects of cellular and organ health, including faster muscle recovery, improved skin health and wound healing, improvements in acne, reduced pain and inflammation, even mitochondrial function, and improving vision itself.
Andrew Huberman：现在，除了阳光之外，红光和近红外光源已被证明对改善细胞和器官健康的许多方面具有积极作用，包括更快的肌肉恢复、改善皮肤健康和伤口愈合、改善痤疮、减少疼痛和炎症，甚至线粒体功能，以及改善视力本身。
What sets Joovv lights apart and why they're my preferred red light therapy device, is that they use clinically proven wavelengths.
Joovv 灯的与众不同之处以及它们成为我首选红光治疗设备的原因在于它们使用经过临床验证的波长。
Meaning specific wavelengths of red light and near infrared light in combination to trigger the optimal cellular adaptations.
这意味着特定波长的红光和近红外光结合起来可以触发最佳的细胞适应。
Personally, I use the Joovv whole body panel about three to four times a week, and I use the Joovv handheld light both at home and when I travel.
就我个人而言，我每周大约使用 Joovv 全身面板三到四次，在家和旅行时我都会使用 Joovv 手持灯。
If you'd like to try Joovv, you can go to Joovv, spelled J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Joovv，可以访问 Joovv，拼写为 J-O-O-V-V，.com/huberman。
Joovv is offering an exclusive discount to all Huberman Lab listeners with up to $400 off Joovv products.
Joovv 为所有 Huberman Lab 听众提供独家折扣，Joovv 产品最高可享受 400 美元的折扣。
Andrew Huberman: Again, that's Joovv, spelled J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman to get up to $400 off.
Andrew Huberman：再说一遍，这是 Joovv，拼写为 J-O-O-V-V，.com/huberman，最高可享受 400 美元折扣。
Today's episode is also brought to us by BetterHelp.
今天的节目也是由 BetterHelp 为我们带来的。
BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online.
BetterHelp 提供由持证治疗师完全在线进行的专业治疗。
I've been doing weekly therapy for well over 30 years.
三十多年来我每周进行一次治疗。
Initially, I didn't have a choice.
最初，我别无选择。
It was a condition of being allowed to stay in school.
这是被允许留在学校的一个条件。
But pretty soon I realized that therapy is an extremely important component to overall health.
但很快我就意识到治疗对于整体健康来说是极其重要的组成部分。
Andrew Huberman: There are essentially three things that make up great therapy.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：基本上，伟大的治疗由三件事组成。
First of all, it provides the opportunity to have a really good rapport with somebody that you can really trust and talk to about essentially any issue that you want.
首先，它提供了与您真正信任的人建立良好关系并谈论您想要的任何问题的机会。
Second of all, it can provide support in the form of emotional support or directed guidance, or of course, both.
其次，它可以以情感支持或定向指导的形式提供支持，当然也可以两者兼而有之。
And third, expert therapy should provide you useful insights, insights that can help you improve in your work life, your relationships, and in your relationship with yourself.
第三，专家治疗应该为您提供有用的见解，这些见解可以帮助您改善工作生活、人际关系以及与自己的关系。
With BetterHelp, they make it very easy for you to find an expert therapist who you resonate with and that can provide those three benefits that come from expert therapy.
通过 BetterHelp，您可以轻松找到与您产生共鸣的专家治疗师，并且可以提供专家治疗带来的这三个好处。
Andrew Huberman: Also, because BetterHelp therapy is done entirely online, it's very time efficient and easy to fit into a busy schedule.
Andrew Huberman：此外，由于 BetterHelp 治疗完全在线完成，因此非常节省时间，并且很容易适应繁忙的日程。
There's no commuting to a therapist's office or sitting in a waiting room looking for parking, any of that.
无需通勤到治疗师办公室或坐在候诊室寻找停车位等。
You just hop online and you do your session.
您只需上网并进行会话即可。
If you'd like to try BetterHelp, you can go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month.
如果您想尝试 BetterHelp，可以访问 betterhelp.com/huberman，第一个月可享受 10% 的折扣。
Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman.
再说一次，这是 betterhelp.com/huberman。
Andrew Huberman: When you climb, I'm curious where your mental horizon is.
Andrew Huberman：当你攀爬时，我很好奇你的心理视野在哪里。
I can make up a story as a non-climber that your mental horizon is always on just the next maneuver, just getting further up or further over.
我可以以一个非登山者的身份编造一个故事，说你的心理地平线总是在下一个动作上，只是爬得更高或更远。
Sometimes, of course, you have to go down and up.
当然，有时候你必须先走下坡路再走上坡路。
But that your sort of time-bending and your space-bending is very, very close.
但你的时间弯曲和空间弯曲非常非常接近。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: But do you ever go into states where you're sort of in automaticity?
Andrew Huberman：但是你是否曾经进入过某种自动化的状态？
I mean, we hear about flow, right?
我的意思是，我们听说过“心流”，对吗？
But where you find yourself kind of maneuvering as opposed to being hyper-strategic about what's happening in the next five seconds, 10 seconds?
但是你会发现自己对接下来五秒、十秒内发生的事情采取的是机动性，而不是过度战略性的？
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: Well, I think the aspiration is to be in that, you know, flow state, whatever you want to call it.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯，我认为我们的愿望是处于那种心流状态，无论你怎么称呼它。
But, actually, I think even in the film, there's some quotes from me saying autopilot and things.
但实际上，我认为即使在电影中，也有一些我说过的自动驾驶仪之类的话。
Like, you know, I'm aspiring to be on autopilot.
就像，你知道，我渴望成为自动驾驶仪。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: So, I'm aspiring to not be thinking too much about it.
Alex Honnold：所以，我希望不要想太多。
And that's, for me at least, why it required so much practice, was to be able to just do something almost by rote, through repetition, just to do the thing that you've practiced without having to think about it.
至少对我来说，这就是为什么它需要如此多的练习，就是能够通过重复几乎死记硬背地做某件事，只是为了做你已经练习过的事情而不必思考它。
Because I think once you start thinking about it too much, you're just more prone to not just make errors, but just, like, get too...
因为我认为一旦你开始想得太多，你不仅会更容易犯错误，而且会变得太过……
get caught up in your own mind.
陷入自己的想法中。
And I don't know.
我不知道。
I mean, the aspiration was just to do the thing.
我的意思是，愿望只是去做这件事。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: Like, no thinking about it, no hesitation, you know, no emotional affect around it, to just do it.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：就像，没有思考，没有犹豫，你知道，没有任何情感影响，就去做。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Is the kinesthetic aspect of it big?
它的动觉方面大吗？
In other words, are you feeling your way through it, as well as using vision?
换句话说，你是否在使用视觉的同时，也通过感觉来解决问题？
I mean, I imagine that these things start to blend.
我的意思是，我想这些事情开始融合在一起。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, I've actually never been asked something quite like that.
Alex Honnold：是的，实际上我从来没有被问过类似的问题。
And in some ways, I mean, the kinesthetic aspect is maybe the whole thing.
我的意思是，在某些方面，动觉方面可能就是全部。
I mean, it is kind of like dancing or something, where you are just flowing over stone.
我的意思是，这有点像跳舞之类的，你只是在石头上流动。
I mean, obviously, you're looking around and you're looking at your footholds, and you're sort of placing your feet correctly that way.
我的意思是，显然，你正在环顾四周，正在查看你的立足点，并且你正在以这种方式正确地放置你的脚。
But really, you're just doing sequences.
但实际上，你只是在做序列。
You're just flowing.
你只是流动。
Like, your body is moving.
就像，你的身体在移动。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: I mean, I think when you climb well, and particularly when you've rehearsed something and you know the climb really well, it feels like jogging or swimming or sort of other elemental movement patterns, where it's just, like, your body doing what it's meant to do, and it feels great, you know?
亚历克斯·霍诺德：我的意思是，我认为当你爬得很好时，特别是当你排练过一些东西并且你非常了解攀爬时，感觉就像慢跑或游泳或其他基本运动模式，就像你的身体在做它应该做的事情，感觉很棒，你知道吗？
It's like, it's really nice.
就好像，真的很好。
Andrew Huberman: Do you ever surprise yourself still, like, that in training things, you know, "I'm surprised that worked out," and then stick with that kinesthetic sense?
安德鲁·休伯曼：你是否仍然对自己感到惊讶，比如在训练中，你知道，“我很惊讶它成功了”，然后坚持那种动觉？
I've been listening to an amazing book by Twyla Tharp.
我一直在听 Twyla Tharp 写的一本很棒的书。
She's a choreographer.
她是一名编舞家。
She was a ballerina.
她是一名芭蕾舞演员。
She's a choreographer, and she said that what distinguishes, you know, sort of virtuosity from mastery is that when you start to surprise yourself.
她是一名编舞家，她说，精湛技艺与精通的区别在于，当你开始给自己带来惊喜时。
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And I think you're certainly in that category of virtuoso.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为你肯定属于这一类艺术大师。
How often does surprise come about?
惊喜多久出现一次？
Alex Honnold: For me personally, that's maybe my favorite moment in climbing, is when you surprise yourself.
Alex Honnold：就我个人而言，这可能是我在攀岩中最喜欢的时刻，就是当你给自己带来惊喜的时候。
And this isn't so much with free soloing, because with free soloing, you don't want to be surprised.
这对于徒手攀登来说并不是那么重要，因为对于徒手攀登来说，你不想感到惊讶。
But with a rope on, you know, you have moments all the time where you're sure you're about to fall because you're up against your physical limits or whatever, and then you stick a move that you were sure you weren't going to.
但是，如果有绳子，你知道，你总会有这样的时刻，你确信自己即将跌倒，因为你遇到了身体极限或其他什么，然后你坚持了一个你确信你不会做的动作。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: And, you know, it doesn't happen that often, but when it does, you're like, "Oh, I exceeded my own expectations." It's like the best feeling, you know?
亚历克斯·霍诺德：而且，你知道，这种情况并不经常发生，但当它发生时，你会说，“哦，我超出了自己的预期。”这就像最好的感觉，你知道吗？
It happens from time to time.
这种情况时有发生。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: In some ways, actually, I was telling one of my friends, I think that that might be one of the ways in which I see aging.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：实际上，在某些方面，我告诉我的一位朋友，我认为这可能是我看待衰老的方式之一。
You know, like, as I'm getting older as a climber, I think I surprise myself less often.
你知道，随着我作为一名登山者年龄的增长，我想我不再经常给自己带来惊喜。
I think, as, like, a 24-year-old, you just don't know your own limitations that much, and you frequently surprise yourself, where I'm like, "Wow, I really outdid myself.
我认为，作为一个 24 岁的人，你不太了解自己的局限性，你经常让自己感到惊讶，我会想，“哇，我真的超越了自己。
I really did something that I was sure I couldn't do, but I managed to do it." And now, as a recent 40-year-old, you know, like, that happens from time to time, for sure, but not all the time, you know?
我确实做了一些我确信自己做不到的事情，但我还是做到了。”现在，作为一个刚刚 40 岁的人，你知道，这种情况肯定会时不时地发生，但并非总是如此，你知道吗？
It's like...
这就像...
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: And now occasionally, I have things where I was like, "Oh, I was sure I could do that," and then I failed, you know?
亚历克斯·霍诺德：现在偶尔，我会想，“哦，我确信我能做到这一点，”然后我失败了，你知道吗？
And you're kind of like, oh, you can blame conditions, you can blame whatever, but you're kind of like, "Oh, I really thought I would do that, and I fell off anyway," and you're like, "Damn it."
你会说，哦，你可以责怪条件，你可以责怪任何事情，但你会说，“哦，我真的以为我会这么做，但无论如何我都摔倒了，”然后你会说，“该死的。”
Andrew Huberman: What is the role of aging in climbing, traditionally and how you're experiencing it?
Andrew Huberman：传统上，衰老在攀岩中扮演着什么角色？您是如何体验这一过程的？
There are fields of science, like mathematics, where the stereotype is, you know, it's a young person's game, and then there are fields like biology, which is a bit more incremental, and people can have fantastic discoveries and long careers.
在科学领域，比如数学，人们的刻板印象是，这是年轻人的游戏；而在生物学等领域，这是一个渐进的领域，人们可以有奇妙的发现和长期的职业生涯。
Those are academic cerebral endeavors.
这些都是学术上的脑力活动。
But, you know, we have our understanding of this for every sport.
但是，你知道，我们对每项运动都有这一点的理解。
For climbing, what's the lure for climbing and for free soloers in particular?
对于攀岩来说，攀岩尤其是自由攀岩者的吸引力是什么？
That it's an old man's game, it's a young man's game?
这是老年人的游戏，还是年轻人的游戏？
Woman's game, excuse me.
女人的游戏，对不起。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: I don't think anybody calls free soloing an old man's game.
亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）：我认为没有人认为自由独奏是老人的游戏。
But, no it could be.
但是，不可以。
But no, I think in general, climbing has more longevity than most sports, just because it's relatively low-impact on your body.
但不，我认为总的来说，攀岩比大多数运动的寿命更长，只是因为它对身体的影响相对较小。
It's very technique and, like, movement focused, and so it's not just pure physical strength.
这非常注重技术，就像注重运动一样，所以它不仅仅是纯粹的体力。
That said, I mean, climbing is in the Olympics now, and the people winning the Olympics are all sort of 18 to 23-ish, you know, sort of same as gymnastics type of range.
也就是说，我的意思是，攀岩现在已成为奥运会项目，赢得奥运会冠军的人都在 18 岁到 23 岁左右，你知道，与体操类型的范围有点相同。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: So I think at the most elite levels of climbing performance, it's kind of similar to gymnastics probably.
Alex Honnold：所以我认为在最精英的攀岩表现水平上，这可能有点类似于体操。
But then to do interesting, new things on real rock outdoors, I think there's a much wider latitude.
但要在户外真正的摇滚上做有趣的新事情，我认为有更广泛的自由度。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: You know, it's like-- And then even into your 50s and 60s, there are plenty of climbers who are leading expeditions to new places, developing new climbs, you know, doing things that are noteworthy and sort of meaningful for the climbing community, even though they're not necessarily cutting edge physically.
亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）：你知道，就像——甚至到了 50 多岁和 60 多岁，还有很多登山者正在带领探险队前往新的地方，开发新的攀登，你知道，做一些对攀岩界值得注意且有意义的事情，尽管他们不一定是身体上最先进的人。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: So, I think there's a lot of opportunity for climbing, more than most sports.
Alex Honnold：所以，我认为攀岩有很多机会，比大多数运动都多。
And I think actually, and the other big thing with climbing is that in so many other sports, like, think ball sports, you know, NBA, NFL, baseball, whatever, it's kind of like if you don't make the team, then you're done playing forever.
我认为实际上，攀岩的另一件大事是，在许多其他运动中，比如球类运动，你知道，NBA、NFL、棒球等等，就像如果你没有入选球队，那么你就永远不再踢球了。
Like, you'll literally never play football again if you're not a professional football player.
就像，如果您不是职业足球运动员，您实际上将永远不会再踢足球。
Whereas with climbing, even if you're not playing at the highest level, you can still go climb all the time, and you can still do cool climbs.
而对于攀岩，即使你没有达到最高水平，你仍然可以一直攀爬，而且仍然可以进行很酷的攀爬。
You can still do things that matter.
您仍然可以做重要的事情。
You can help teach.
你可以帮忙教书。
You can do whatever.
你可以做任何事。
And so you can kind of, like, stay in the game much, much longer.
这样你就可以在游戏中停留更长时间。
Andrew Huberman: You mentioned that climbing's in the Olympics now.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你提到攀岩现在已成为奥运会项目。
We see a lot of sports like skateboarding and climbing now in the Olympics, and these were sports that traditionally were done...
我们现在在奥运会上看到了很多运动，比如滑板和攀岩，这些都是传统上进行的运动……
you know, people just go to where these things were done and it wasn't always recorded because there wasn't social media back then.
你知道，人们只是去了这些事情发生的地方，而且并不总是被记录下来，因为当时没有社交媒体。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: More that there weren't smartphones, there weren't cameras.
Alex Honnold：更重要的是，当时没有智能手机，也没有相机。
It's like, it's not even about the social, it's about whether or not you can record it easily.
就像，这甚至不是社交的问题，而是你能否轻松记录的问题。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: But-
亚历克斯·霍诺德：但是——
Andrew Huberman: So, I'm guessing there's a big influx of young kids getting into this now.
Andrew Huberman：所以，我猜现在有大量的孩子涌入这个领域。
Do you see the sport progressing faster?
您认为这项运动进展得更快吗？
And I'm also curious about the culture, whether or not...
我也对这种文化很好奇，无论...
You know, any time a sport is in the Olympics, the thing is like, oh, it's kind of quote unquote "sold out now." It's going to change, it's going to become more commercial.
你知道，每当一项运动进入奥运会时，事情就像是，哦，这有点像“现在已经卖完了”。它将会改变，它将变得更加商业化。
So, what's the culture within climbing about this big expansion?
那么，这次大规模扩张的攀岩文化是怎样的呢？
What are your thoughts?
你有什么想法？
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Alex Honnold: I mean, personally, I'm way into it.
Alex Honnold：我的意思是，就我个人而言，我很喜欢它。
I mean, I was a kid that got into climbing in the climbing gym, and, and it's changed my life for the better, you know.
我的意思是，我还是个孩子的时候，就在攀岩馆里开始攀岩，这让我的生活变得更好，你知道。
Like, I love climbing, I think it's great.
就像，我喜欢攀岩，我认为这很棒。
You know, I can certainly see the sort of commercial influx from the Olympics are sort of like more mainstream adoption of climbing.
你知道，我当然可以看到奥运会带来的商业涌入有点像攀岩的更主流采用。
But that's kind of great, because I mean, most of my friends are sort of climbing industry adjacent professionals in some ways.
但这很好，因为我的意思是，我的大多数朋友在某种程度上都是攀岩行业相邻的专业人士。
You know, like, they make...
你知道，就像，他们让...
They're like coaches or dieticians or setters.
他们就像教练、营养师或传球手。
Like, they make the climbs that people climb on.
就像，他们建造了人们攀爬的攀爬设施。
Alex Honnold: And so basically, the bigger the industry gets, the more people like that can make a living doing the thing that they love to do, even if they're not necessarily sponsored professionals at the highest level.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：基本上，行业规模越大，就越多的人可以通过做自己喜欢做的事情谋生，即使他们不一定是最高级别的赞助专业人士。
So, I'm kind of like, you know, a broadening industry is kind of good for everybody.
所以，我觉得，你知道，一个不断扩大的行业对每个人都有好处。
And mostly, I mean, climbing's awesome.
我的意思是，最重要的是，攀岩非常棒。
Like, if people enjoy-- You know, it's like, why not get into climbing?
就像，如果人们喜欢——你知道，就像，为什么不去攀岩呢？
It's like certainly...
这就像肯定...
I mean, I think it's better than most other fitness modalities, you know.
我的意思是，我认为它比大多数其他健身方式更好，你知道。
It's like, oh, why do CrossFit when you can go rock climbing?
就像，哦，既然你可以去攀岩，为什么还要进行 CrossFit？
It's way cooler.
凉爽多了。
Andrew Huberman: I mean, it certainly seems-
安德鲁·休伯曼：我的意思是，看起来确实-
Alex Honnold: It's way more fun.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：这更有趣。
That's for sure.
这是肯定的。
Andrew Huberman: And you can do it indoors or outdoors.
Andrew Huberman：你可以在室内或室外进行。
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: There are probably certain aspects you wouldn't want to do alone for safety reasons, but-
Andrew Huberman：出于安全原因，您可能不想在某些方面单独进行，但是-
Alex Honnold: I think when people ask, like, what do you worry about with climbing culture and all that kind of stuff, like with the Olympics and the mainstream appeal, I'm kind of like, you know, if somebody wants to be a climber and only go to the climbing gym in a major city for their entire life, like, that's great.
亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）：我认为，当人们问，比如，你对攀岩文化和所有类似的东西，比如奥运会和主流吸引力，有什么担心时，我会说，你知道，如果有人想成为一名攀岩者，并且一生只去大城市的攀岩馆，那就太好了。
If they just want to climb plastic the rest of their life, that's still better than going to CrossFit or doing whatever else.
如果他们只想在余生中攀爬塑料，那仍然比去 CrossFit 或做其他任何事情要好。
I'm like, "That's cool." Like, you don't have to go climb El Cap to be a climber.
我想，“那太酷了。”就像，你不必去攀登 El Cap 峰才能成为一名登山者。
I'm kind of like, people can do whatever they want, and I think that's great for the sport.
我觉得，人们可以做任何他们想做的事，我认为这对这项运动来说很棒。
Alex Honnold: And you are seeing standards rise very quickly right now sort of as a result.
亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）：因此，你现在会看到标准迅速提高。
Just, like, better access to gyms, more kids getting into it.
就像，更好地进入健身房，更多的孩子加入其中。
You just see talent rise faster.
你只会看到人才上升得更快。
Andrew Huberman: I come across social media accounts of parkour kids every once in a while doing absolutely insane stuff in urban terrains usually.
Andrew Huberman：我偶尔会在社交媒体上看到跑酷孩子们在城市里做一些绝对疯狂的事情。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: What's the crossover, if any, between parkour and climbing of the sort that you do?
Andrew Huberman：您从事的跑酷运动和攀岩运动之间有什么交叉点（如果有的话）？
Alex Honnold: There's a little bit.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：有一点。
Not that much, but climbers often...
没那么多，但登山者经常...
Competition climbing, like bouldering, which is in the Olympics, has definitely taken a slight turn towards parkour-ish sorts of moves, like big run and jumps and, crazy swings and things like that.
竞技攀岩，就像奥运会上的抱石一样，肯定已经稍微转向了跑酷式的动作，比如大跑、跳跃、疯狂的摇摆等等。
And so some old school climbers complain that it's, like, gotten a little too jumpy, that type of bouldering.
因此，一些老派攀岩者抱怨说，这种抱石运动有点太紧张了。
But I'm kind of into it.
但我有点喜欢它。
I mean, I don't know.
我的意思是，我不知道。
This is all very, like, inside baseball.
这一切都非常像棒球内部的事情。
Like, how do you separate...
比如，如何分开...
Like, basically at the highest level, competitors are all very, very strong, so then how do you separate these different competitors who are all climbing at an elite level?
就像，基本上在最高级别，竞争对手都非常非常强大，那么你如何区分这些不同的竞争对手，他们都在精英级别攀登呢？
And one of the ways is complicated movement like that, like run and jumps and coordination and things like that.
其中一种方法就是像这样的复杂运动，比如跑、跳、协调等等。
So, I don't know.
所以，我不知道。
I mean, I think it's cool.
我的意思是，我觉得这很酷。
I've actually met like a couple of professional parkour athletes who also climb.
事实上，我遇到过一些也会攀爬的专业跑酷运动员。
And they are really good at very particular sorts of things, where you're like...
他们真的很擅长非常特殊的事情，你就像......
I mean, it's amazing to see.
我的意思是，这真是令人惊奇。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I mean, I find a lot of what they do terrifying, but also awesome.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，我的意思是，我发现他们所做的很多事情都很可怕，但也很棒。
I can't help myself but watch.
我情不自禁地看着。
And, just the motivation to work it out too, like you know, because some of these are truly make or break or make or die, at least in the form they put to social media.
而且，正如你所知，这也是解决问题的动力，因为其中一些确实是成败成败，至少以他们在社交媒体上的形式呈现。
So, I'm always curious, like, what goes into that.
所以，我总是很好奇，比如，其中到底发生了什么。
Andrew Huberman: And, you know, having grown up skateboarding, I mean, you go around a city and you see stuff, and you're like, "Oh, that would be awesome." And so, I mean, just looking at a landscape, natural or urban landscape in a completely different way, I see a lot of parallels with climbing and parkour.
Andrew Huberman：而且，你知道，我是玩滑板长大的，我的意思是，你在城市里走一圈，看到一些东西，你就会想，“哦，那太棒了。”所以，我的意思是，只要以完全不同的方式观察风景，无论是自然景观还是城市景观，我都会发现攀岩和跑酷有很多相似之处。
Alex Honnold: Totally.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：完全可以。
Alex Honnold: Totally.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：完全可以。
Andrew Huberman: And also, you know, I think of you at certainly at the level and kind of parallel with a guy like Tony Hawk, who's been in the sport of skateboarding for a very long time.
Andrew Huberman：而且，你知道，我认为你的水平和水平与托尼·霍克（Tony Hawk）这样的人相当，他已经从事滑板运动很长时间了。
He's an amazing ambassador for the sport as it's gone through its various, like, you know, peaks and valleys, now in the Olympics.
他是这项运动的一位了不起的大使，因为它经历了各种各样的，比如，你知道的，高峰和低谷，现在进入了奥运会。
So, I think climbing and sports like skateboarding and surfing have a lot in common in this way.
所以，我认为攀岩和滑板、冲浪等运动在这方面有很多共同点。
Subculture, but then also gets popular.
亚文化，但随后也变得流行。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, where they're kind of niche and then they become kind of mainstream.
亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）：是的，他们是小众，然后成为主流。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: But then even once they're mainstream, they're still kind of cool, you know.
Alex Honnold：但即使它们成为主流，它们仍然很酷，你知道。
Like skateboarding.
就像滑板一样。
It's definitely not, like, full punk rock anymore, but you're like, "It's pretty cool, you know, like, skateboarding still." And it's not that common still, you know.
它绝对不再是完全的朋克摇滚，但你会说，“这很酷，你知道，就像滑板一样。”你知道，这种情况还不太常见。
And that's the thing with climbing is I'm kind of like, yeah, climbing's growing, it's becoming more mainstream.
这就是攀岩的问题，我有点像，是的，攀岩正在发展，它变得更加主流。
It's just never going to be, you know, soccer or something.
你知道，这永远不会是足球什么的。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
It's always going to be slightly niche, slightly counter-cultural because it's just, you know, it's just a smaller thing.
它总是会有点小众，有点反文化，因为它只是，你知道，它只是一个较小的东西。
It's just not playing basketball or something.
这只是不打篮球什么的。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I'm intrigued by the training aspects and some of the fitness aspects.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：是的，我对训练方面和一些健身方面很感兴趣。
I agree that it-- Having only done it a little bit.
我同意这一点——只做了一点点。
I mean, I've been to a climbing gym once or twice.
我的意思是，我去过攀岩馆一两次。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, I was going to ask.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，我正想问。
So, you've gone to the gym and stuff.
所以，你去了健身房之类的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I've gone up and down the wall a few times.
Andrew Huberman：是的，我在墙上爬了好几次。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, cool.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，酷。
Andrew Huberman: I've belayed for people a few times.
Andrew Huberman：我曾为人们做过几次保护。
But I am by no means skilled at it.
但我对此并不熟练。
It'd be fun to get into because I-- Happy birthday, by the way.
加入会很有趣，因为我——顺便说一句，生日快乐。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: Oh, thanks, man.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：哦，谢谢，伙计。
Andrew Huberman: I just turned 40.
Andrew Huberman：我刚满 40 岁。
I'm turning 50 soon, and I think more about...
我马上就50岁了，我想的更多...
I'm happy with my strength and endurance, but I think more about mobility now.
我对自己的力量和耐力感到满意，但现在我更多地考虑的是灵活性。
Alex Honnold: Mm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And also-
安德鲁·休伯曼：还有——
Alex Honnold: Climbing is great for that.
Alex Honnold：攀岩对此很有帮助。
Andrew Huberman: Climbing's great for that.
Andrew Huberman：攀岩对此很有帮助。
And there's a lot of interesting literature on brain longevity and just maintaining your cognition and the strength of your distal body.
有很多关于大脑寿命以及维持认知和远端身体力量的有趣文献。
So, toes and fingers, believe it or not.
所以，不管你信不信，脚趾和手指。
It's a correlate.
这是一个关联。
Like the toe strength-
就像脚趾的力量一样——
Alex Honnold: Yeah, isn't that...
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，那不是……
I've always thought that's just a correlation thing.
我一直认为这只是一个相关性问题。
But that's not...
但那不是...
Yeah, like, because grip strength is just a proxy for all...
是的，就像，因为握力只是所有人的代表......
It means that you use your body a lot, and so therefore you're probably...
这意味着你经常使用你的身体，因此你可能......
Andrew Huberman: It's just a correlation.
Andrew Huberman：这只是一种相关性。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: You know, when I read those things about, like, if you have strong grip it means this and this and this.
亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）：你知道，当我读到这些事情时，比如，如果你有很强的抓地力，那就意味着这个、这个和这个。
I'm like, "No, if you have a strong grip, it means that you do stuff all the time."
我想，“不，如果你有很强的握力，那就意味着你一直在做事情。”
Andrew Huberman: Right.
安德鲁·休伯曼：对。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: And so, as a result of doing stuff all the time, you're probably sharper than somebody who doesn't do stuff all the time.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：所以，由于一直在做事情，你可能比那些不一直做事情的人更敏锐。
Andrew Huberman: That's right.
安德鲁·休伯曼：没错。
So, it's a correlate.
所以，这是一个相关性。
At the same time, the motor neurons that control trunk movements and contraction of the trunk muscles, like, as you go out from the midline, they're in layers in the spinal cord, so they literally, like, the motor neurons that control, like, the core sit closer to the...
与此同时，控制躯干运动和躯干肌肉收缩的运动神经元，就像，当你从中线出去时，它们位于脊髓的各层中，所以它们实际上就像控制核心的运动神经元一样，更靠近......
Sit closer in the spinal cord to the midline.
坐在靠近脊髓中线的位置。
And then, you know, across evolution, we evolved from animals with fins and wings, and some of the same genes are used.
然后，你知道，在进化过程中，我们是从有鳍和翅膀的动物进化而来的，并且使用了一些相同的基因。
And eventually, you get motor neurons that control, like, fine motor movements like this.
最终，你会得到控制像这样的精细运动的运动神经元。
Alex Honnold: Right?
亚历克斯·霍诺德：对吗？
Alex Honnold: I'm, like, sitting up straighter.
Alex Honnold：我好像坐直了。
I'm like, "Which ones?"
我想，“哪些？”
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And it is true that for some reason, the motor neurons that control the distal body, so toes and fingers, calves and forearms, are more vulnerable to age-related degeneration than the ones for the core.
Andrew Huberman：确实，出于某种原因，控制身体远端（例如脚趾和手指、小腿和前臂）的运动神经元比控制核心的运动神经元更容易受到与年龄相关的退化的影响。
Alex Honnold: Interesting.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：有趣。
Andrew Huberman: So, it is possible, we don't know yet, that by maintaining strength of the distal body that you can actually preserve motor neuron and cognitive function, right?
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，我们还不知道，通过保持远端身体的力量，你实际上可以保留运动神经元和认知功能，对吗？
It's more of a-
这更像是一个——
Alex Honnold: Then I fricking, I'm psyched.
Alex Honnold：然后我他妈的，我很兴奋。
Andrew Huberman: Then you're set, right?
Andrew Huberman：那你就准备好了，对吧？
Alex Honnold: Yeah, yeah, I'm doing it.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，是的，我正在这样做。
Andrew Huberman: And that's why I was curious how climbers, provided they don't fall and kill themselves, how they age.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这就是为什么我很好奇登山者如果不摔倒自杀的话，他们会如何变老。
And there's other things here too, because in some sports, like football and rugby, people are getting their head hit a lot, so they don't tend to age well.
这里还有其他的事情，因为在某些运动中，比如足球和橄榄球，人们的头部经常受到撞击，所以他们往往不会很好地变老。
But I always thought of climbers, you know, in my time up in Yosemite, I'd see young guys like you, and then I'd see these old climbers and I was like, "Man, these guys are in incredible shape."
但我总是想到登山者，你知道，在我在优胜美地的时候，我会看到像你这样的年轻人，然后我会看到这些老登山者，我就想，“伙计，这些人的状态令人难以置信。”
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, that doesn't help.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，那没有帮助。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: They're lean, they're lithe, they seem cognitively fresh.
Andrew Huberman：他们很瘦，他们很柔软，他们看起来认知新鲜。
So it seems like it's a sport where people hold onto their faculties pretty well.
所以看起来这是一项人们能很好地保持自己能力的运动。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, I think so.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，我想是的。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: I mean, I think, you know, it's hard to say because there just aren't that many super old climbers, and then a lot of the ones that come to mind, like sort of famous old climbers, I mean, they die the same ways that everybody dies, you know, like cancer or heart disease or whatever, but in their late 80s or whatever.
Alex Honnold：我的意思是，我想，你知道，这很难说，因为没有那么多超级老登山者，然后我想到了很多人，比如著名的老登山者，我的意思是，他们的死亡方式与每个人的死亡方式相同，你知道，比如癌症或心脏病或其他什么，但都是在 80 多岁或其他什么时候。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: No, I think climbing is a great way to age.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：不，我认为攀岩是一种很好的变老方式。
I mean, I have a bunch of friends who are sort of 50s and 60s who are very fit.
我的意思是，我有一群 50 多岁和 60 多岁的朋友，他们非常健康。
Actually, I mean, it comes to mind, there's this friend of mine who's a philosophy professor at UNLV, at the university, but he's incredibly jacked and I think he's 64 now.
事实上，我的意思是，我想到了，我的一个朋友，他是内华达大学拉斯维加斯分校的哲学教授，但他非常兴奋，我想他现在已经 64 岁了。
I think he just became the oldest person to climb a certain grade, like 5.14, which is like kind of an elite rock climbing grade.
我认为他刚刚成为攀登某个级别（例如 5.14）的最年长的人，这就像精英攀岩级别一样。
But I think he's maybe the oldest person to have done that now.
但我认为他可能是现在做到这一点的最年长的人。
Alex Honnold: But, he once told me this anecdote that he was at some hotel pool, like, in middle America at some conference or something, and some kid asked if he could touch his abs because he'd never seen...
亚历克斯·霍诺德：但是，他曾经告诉我这个轶事，他在某个酒店的游泳池里，比如在美国中部的某个会议或其他什么地方，有一个孩子问他是否可以触摸他的腹肌，因为他从未见过......
He was like, "Are they real?" You know, like real, because he's like-
他说：“它们是真的吗？”你知道，就像真的一样，因为他就像——
Andrew Huberman: Because he's only seen action figures.
安德鲁·休伯曼：因为他只看过动作玩偶。
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Well, yeah, he's like a 48-year-old professor who's, like, shredded and some kid in the pool is like, "Can I touch those?
嗯，是的，他就像一位 48 岁的教授，被撕碎了，泳池里的某个孩子会说，“我可以摸那些吗？
Is that real?" You know, like I've never seen a thing like that.
这是真的吗？”你知道，就像我从未见过这样的事情一样。
And so-
所以——
Andrew Huberman: It says a lot about him and about the state of our country right now.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：这充分说明了他和我们国家现在的状况。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, exactly, middle America.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，没错，美国中部。
Andrew Huberman: We are in this crisis of obesity, that's very serious.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我们正处于这场非常严重的肥胖危机中。
It goes beyond aesthetics.
它超越了美学。
Yeah, I've thought about getting into climbing.
是的，我曾经想过要从事攀岩运动。
The problem I had is I tried to just raw strength it.
我遇到的问题是我试图增强它的原始强度。
I just tried to pull up my way.
我只是试图拉我的路。
Alex Honnold: A lot of people do that.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：很多人都这样做。
Andrew Huberman: And obviously that's foolish.
Andrew Huberman：显然这是愚蠢的。
And you gas out really fast.
而且你的排气速度很快。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, that's a very common thing for adults.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，这对成年人来说是很常见的事情。
I mean, especially men, especially somebody like you who's already fit, and so you try to bring the tool you already have to it, and you're like, "No, you've got to drive with your legs, you can go technique, mobility." I like to say that anybody that tries climbing should think of it as climbing a really, really steep staircase, where it's like you're still walking up the stairs and you're using the handrail for balance but you're not pulling yourself up the handrail.
我的意思是，尤其是男人，尤其是像你这样已经很健康的人，所以你尝试使用你已经拥有的工具，你会说，“不，你必须用你的腿开车，你可以依靠技术和灵活性。”我想说的是，任何尝试攀登的人都应该将其视为攀登一个非常非常陡峭的楼梯，就像您仍在走上楼梯一样，您正在使用扶手来保持平衡，但您并没有将自己拉上扶手。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: And most of climbing is basically a steep staircase, you know?
Alex Honnold：大多数攀登基本上都是陡峭的楼梯，你知道吗？
I mean, especially outdoors.
我的意思是，尤其是在户外。
In climbing gyms, it's a little bit different, because the wall's actually vertical.
在攀岩馆里，情况有点不同，因为墙实际上是垂直的。
But outdoors, the wall is almost always a little bit less than vertical.
但在室外，墙壁几乎总是稍微低于垂直度。
So it's like basically you're on a very, very steep and technical staircase, and then you're using the handrail, like the handholds to keep you balanced on the wall.
所以基本上就像你在一个非常非常陡峭和技术性的楼梯上，然后你使用扶手，比如把手来让你在墙上保持平衡。
But your legs should always be driving you.
但你的双腿应该始终驱动你。
Andrew Huberman: Got it.
安德鲁·休伯曼：明白了。
Andrew Huberman: I still haven't done Half Dome and-
Andrew Huberman：我还没拍完《半圆顶》，而且-
Alex Honnold: Never?
亚历克斯·霍诺德：从来没有？
You've done Clouds Rest a bunch and not Half Dome?
你已经做过很多次《Clouds Rest》了，但没有做过《Half Dome》？
Andrew Huberman: No.
安德鲁·休伯曼：不。
Andrew Huberman: Done Clouds Rest a bunch of times, run Clouds Rest, rucked Clouds Rest, but Half Dome has those cables.
Andrew Huberman：多次完成 Clouds Rest，运行 Clouds Rest，破坏 Clouds Rest，但 Half Dome 有这些电缆。
Yeah, yeah, I never was organized enough to do the sign up early enough in the season.
是的，是的，我从来没有组织得足够好，无法在赛季尽早进行报名。
Alex Honnold: That's weird.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：这很奇怪。
Alex Honnold: No, but just do it after the permits.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：不，但只要获得许可就可以了。
Andrew Huberman: Oh-
安德鲁·休伯曼：哦-
Alex Honnold: You know the cables stay up all year.
亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）：你知道电缆全年都保持着。
So when it's out of season, they take the uprights down, but the cables just sit there and you can do it any time.
因此，当淡季时，他们会将立柱拆下，但电缆就放在那里，您可以随时进行。
It's actually way better to do it post, like after the season, because there's no permitting, there are no people, and it's, like, super chill.
实际上，最好在赛季结束后进行，因为没有许可，没有人，而且非常寒冷。
Andrew Huberman: Okay, I definitely want to do it.
Andrew Huberman：好的，我绝对想这么做。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, just do it, do it off season.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，就这么做，在淡季就这么做。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, because my biggest concern is not that I'm going to fall, it's that someone above me is going to fall.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：是的，因为我最担心的不是我会跌倒，而是我上面的人会跌倒。
I mean, there are a lot of-
我的意思是，有很多——
Alex Honnold: Way better.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：好多了。
Alex Honnold: Well, you're strong enough to just glance them off, you know?
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯，你足够强大，可以看一眼他们，知道吗？
Just, like, shrug them aside.
只是，就像，耸耸肩把它们放在一边。
Andrew Huberman: Possibly.
安德鲁·休伯曼：有可能。
I did hear about it-
我确实听说过——
Alex Honnold: Or ideally, stop them.
Alex Honnold：或者理想情况下，阻止他们。
Right?
正确的？
You know?
你知道？
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, ideally stop them, but, yeah, I'd love to do it.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，最好阻止他们，但是，是的，我很乐意这样做。
I've been going to Yosemite since I was in my teens.
我从十几岁起就一直去优胜美地。
I love it up there.
我喜欢那里。
I wouldn't say it's my second home, but it's heaven.
我不会说这是我的第二个家，但它是天堂。
I mean, as you know, and actually one of the reasons I'm excited to talk to you among others is that I would like more people to get into the national parks, and really enjoy them, because they're...
我的意思是，正如你所知，实际上我很高兴与你交谈的原因之一是我希望更多的人进入国家公园，并真正享受它们，因为它们......
We have so many gems in Yosemite, the High Country and Tuolumne Meadows to me is like, is heaven on earth.
优胜美地、高地和图奥勒米草甸有很多宝石，对我来说就像是人间天堂。
The-
该-
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: Oh, Yosemite, I mean, is a crown jewel.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：哦，我的意思是，优胜美地是皇冠上的宝石。
I think it's the best national park in the country.
我认为这是该国最好的国家公园。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, people forget it's only about a four-hour drive from the Bay Area or from Los Angeles.
Andrew Huberman：是的，人们忘记了这里距湾区或洛杉矶仅约四个小时车程。
It's pretty quick.
速度相当快。
You go through a bunch of different landscapes and then boom, suddenly you're there.
你经历了一堆不同的风景，然后突然间你就在那里了。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, and it's like paradise.
Alex Honnold：是的，就像天堂一样。
It's incredible.
太不可思议了。
Andrew Huberman: I'm curious about things in free soloing that, as a uninformed spectator, we think, oh, you know, that's the hardest part, that's the most difficult thing.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我对自由独奏中的事情很好奇，作为一个不知情的观众，我们认为，哦，你知道，这是最难的部分，这是最困难的事情。
But I imagine, inside of the sport, like that there are things that are very difficult and maybe even perilous that we're not aware of, like what's some of the non-obvious aspects of free soloing, if they exist?
但我想，在这项运动中，有些事情是非常困难的，甚至可能是危险的，我们没有意识到，比如自由独奏的一些不明显的方面，如果它们存在的话？
Because I always think, okay, you know, if...
因为我总是想，好吧，你知道，如果...
I can imagine, oh, that's super tough, but that might be the easier or less tough.
我可以想象，哦，这非常困难，但这可能更容易或更不困难。
Usually there are these kind of hidden, I don't want to call them hidden dangers, but hidden dangers in a sport.
通常都会有这样一些隐患，我不想称之为隐患，而是一项运动中的隐患。
What are some things that the observer wouldn't be aware of?
有哪些事情是观察者不会意识到的？
Alex Honnold: Hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, I'm not sure.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，我不确定。
I'm not sure what the hidden dangers are.
不知道其中隐藏着什么危险。
I would say, though, that the obvious visual dangers, like, for a non-climber just watching free soloing, I think they generally misperceive all the dangers and risks involved.
不过，我想说的是，明显的视觉危险，例如，对于仅观看自由独奏的非登山者来说，我认为他们通常会误解所涉及的所有危险和风险。
You know, they just see it and they're like, "That's crazy.
你知道，他们只是看到了，然后就会说：“这太疯狂了。
That's what I..." You know, and whatever they're bringing to it is probably not the actual case.
这就是我……”你知道，无论他们带来什么，都可能不是实际情况。
Just because it's hard to visually tell what's challenging in climbing, you know?
只是因为很难从视觉上看出攀岩中的挑战是什么，你知道吗？
You're like, "That's a vertical wall!" But if it's, like, a nice crack going over a vertical wall, that's actually quite easy and secure climbing.
你会说，“那是一堵垂直的墙！”但如果它是垂直墙壁上的一条漂亮裂缝，那实际上是相当容易和安全的攀爬。
But then some of the other stuff, you know, if there are really small holds, you're trusting your feet, I don't know, I mean, it's just really hard to judge that stuff visually.
但其他一些东西，你知道，如果有很小的抓地力，你就相信你的脚，我不知道，我的意思是，很难从视觉上判断这些东西。
Like, you have to do it to experience it.
就像，你必须这样做才能体验它。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: But I think that honestly the whole perception of risk around free soloing is maybe slightly misperceived by people.
亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）：但老实说，我认为人们对自由独奏风险的整体看法可能略有误解。
So with climbing in general, like if you go climbing with a rope, like if you're traditional climbing, like if you're climbing with a rope and gear and you're going to climb Half Dome, let's say.
所以对于一般的攀岩来说，就像你用绳子去攀岩一样，就像你在传统攀岩中一样，就像你用绳子和装备攀岩一样，并且你要攀登半圆顶，比方说。
When you start climbing from the ground, you go some distance before you put your first piece of gear in, because that's just kind of the nature of climbing, you go for a ways and then you put in some gear, you clip your rope into it, and then you're protected.
当你开始从地面攀爬时，你会先走一段距离，然后再戴上你的第一件装备，因为这就是攀登的本质，你会走一段路，然后戴上一些装备，把绳子夹进去，然后你就受到了保护。
And then for whatever distance you're going, you're essentially free soloing to that point.
然后，无论你要走多远，你基本上都是自由攀登到那一点。
You know, like, there's always risk involved in climbing, because even if you have a rope on, depending how far you're going above your last piece of gear and, you know, what the terrain is like and whether or not the rock is good and all these other factors, you're more or less safe.
你知道，攀岩总是存在风险，因为即使你身上有绳子，取决于你在最后一件装备上走了多远，你知道，地形是什么样的，岩石是否良好以及所有这些其他因素，你或多或少是安全的。
And so I think people look at free soloing as this binary, like if you don't have a rope, that's dangerous.
所以我认为人们将自由独奏视为二元，就像如果你没有绳子，那是危险的。
And you're kind of like, "Well, any time you're climbing there are dangers, or there could be." And you're constantly evaluating those and trying to mitigate them.
你会说，“好吧，任何时候你攀爬都会有危险，或者可能会有危险。”您会不断评估这些问题并尝试减轻它们。
And so I think that's the big misperception.
所以我认为这是一个很大的误解。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: Because easy free soloing is probably-- If I'm somebody, you know, who's like an expert rock climber or whatever, I've been climbing 30 years, if I'm on an easy free solo, that's almost certainly safer than a very hard, certain types of hard climbing with a rope on.
Alex Honnold：因为简单的徒手攀登可能——如果我是一个像专家攀岩者之类的人，我已经攀岩 30 年了，如果我进行简单的徒手攀登，那几乎肯定比非常困难的、某些类型的带绳索攀登更安全。
You know, and most of my scariest experiences as a climber actually have been with a rope on.
你知道，作为一名登山者，我最可怕的经历实际上大部分都是在有绳子的情况下发生的。
Alex Honnold: Because with a rope, you're much more willing to push yourself into unknown terrain, because you're kind of like, "Surely there'll be something good just around the corner." And so you keep going around the corner and you keep not getting into good gear, and you're like, "Holy shit, it's getting scarier and scarier" Are we allowed to curse?
亚历克斯·霍诺德：因为有了绳子，你更愿意把自己推向未知的地形，因为你会想，“肯定会有一些好事就在拐角处。”所以你一直在拐角处，你一直没有进入良好的状态，你就像，“天哪，它变得越来越可怕”我们可以咒骂吗？
Andrew Huberman: Sure, yeah, yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：当然，是的，是的。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, good.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，很好。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
So you know, like-
所以你知道，就像-
Andrew Huberman: Even at each other, if you want to curse at me.
Andrew Huberman：即使是互相骂，如果你想骂我的话。
Yeah.
是的。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, perfect.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，完美。
But so a lot of my scariest experiences have been with a rope on, because you're kind of like, "I'm sure it'll get better.
但我的很多最可怕的经历都是在绳子上度过的，因为你会说，“我相信情况会好起来的。
I'm sure it'll get better," and it keeps getting worse and worse.
我确信情况会变得更好”，而且情况会变得越来越糟。
And then pretty soon, you're in some position where you're definitely going to die if you fall.
然后很快，你就会处于一个如果摔倒就肯定会死的位置。
But you never would have climbed into that position if you didn't have a rope on, because you're just so much more conservative when you're ropeless.
但如果你没有绳子，你永远不会爬到那个位置，因为当你没有绳子时，你会更加保守。
And when you're ropeless, you're kind of like if something seems wrong, you just go down.
当你没有绳索时，你会觉得如果出现问题，你就会下去。
You know, because you're just not going to push that far.
你知道，因为你不会走那么远。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I saw the movie "Meru."
安德鲁·休伯曼：我看了电影《梅鲁》。
Alex Honnold: Hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: That was pretty intense.
安德鲁·休伯曼：那是相当激烈的。
Alex Honnold: I mean, that's an example of pushing really fricking far with a rope on.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：我的意思是，这是一个用绳子把绳子推得很远的例子。
You know, it's like because you have a rope, you're willing to just keep pushing into the unknown.
你知道，这就像因为你有一根绳子，你愿意继续推进未知的事物。
But then you wind up in a position where you're like, "This is pretty fricking extreme." You know, it's like...
但你最终会陷入这样的境地：“这真是太极端了。”你知道，这就像...
I mean, you saw the film.
我的意思是，你看过这部电影。
It's all totally insane.
这一切都太疯狂了。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯，嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, it is insane.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，这太疯狂了。
And I feel like ice and snow bring a whole other dimension.
我觉得冰和雪带来了完全不同的维度。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I think that in your sport, in free soloing, like the idea from the spectator side is, you know, like, "These guys, like one fall and they're dead," right?
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，我认为在你的运动中，在自由独奏中，观众的想法是，你知道，就像，“这些家伙，就像一次摔倒，他们就死了，”对吗？
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I've heard you say before that's actually not true.
Andrew Huberman：我以前听你说过这实际上不是真的。
Alex Honnold: I mean, yeah, it's kind of true in that-
亚历克斯·霍诺德：我的意思是，是的，这确实是——
Andrew Huberman: I mean, you don't want to fall, but-
安德鲁·休伯曼：我的意思是，你不想摔倒，但是-
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Like yeah, it's true that at most places, if you fall off, you're going to die.
是的，确实在大多数地方，如果你掉下来，你就会死。
But like, when I started free soloing as a kid, not that I like started and then only did that, but on my first free solos when I was young, in the back of my mind, it would always be like, "If you slip, you'll die." You know, and the reality is that there are tons of places where your foot can slip and nothing else moves.
但是就像，当我小时候开始自由独奏时，并不是我喜欢开始然后才这样做，而是当我年轻时第一次自由独奏时，在我的脑海里，总是会这样，“如果你滑倒，你就会死。”你知道，现实是，有很多地方你的脚可能会打滑，而其他地方都无法移动。
You know, like your hands are locked on, you're holding on tight, and your foot slipped, and you're just kind of like, "Oh, my foot slipped," and then you keep climbing, and it's no big deal.
你知道，就像你的双手被锁住一样，你紧紧抓住，然后你的脚滑倒了，你就会说，“哦，我的脚滑倒了，”然后你继续攀登，这没什么大不了的。
I mean, there are also some places where if your foot slips, you're going to die for sure.
我的意思是，有些地方如果你脚一滑，你肯定会死。
Alex Honnold: And the key is differentiating between those.
Alex Honnold：关键是区分它们。
But I think when I started, you know, it was like, "If anything happens, you'll die." And as you do it more, you're actually like, "No, I mean, a lot of things can happen and it'll be fine.
但我想当我开始的时候，你知道，就像是，“如果发生任何事情，你就会死。”当你做得更多时，你实际上会说，“不，我的意思是，很多事情都可能发生，但一切都会好起来的。
You just have to make sure that the wrong thing doesn't happen at the wrong time."
你只需要确保错误的事情不会在错误的时间发生。”
Andrew Huberman: I was surprised to hear you say that, yes, free soloists die, but oftentimes they die not free soloing.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我很惊讶地听到你说，是的，徒手攀爬者会死，但通常他们不是因徒手攀爬而死。
They die doing other things.
他们在做其他事情时死去。
I'm fascinated by this, not through a morbid fascination, but for a number of reasons.
我对此着迷，并不是出于病态的迷恋，而是出于多种原因。
So, maybe you could elaborate on that a little bit.
所以，也许你可以详细说明一下。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, there's a quote in the film "Free Solo," where a friend of mine, Tommy Caldwell, who's a very well-known climber, says something like, "All the people who were big free soloists are dead now." And it kind of implies like, you know, free soloing is dangerous and they all died soloing.
亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）：是的，电影《徒手攀岩》中有一句话，我的一个朋友汤米·考德威尔（Tommy Caldwell）是一位非常著名的攀岩者，他说过这样的话：“所有伟大的徒手攀登者现在都死了。”这有点暗示，你知道，徒手攀登是危险的，他们都死于独攀。
But the reality is that basically none of them died soloing.
但现实是，基本上没有一个人是独自死去的。
Like, one or two soloists have died soloing.
就像，一两个独奏者因独奏而死亡。
Though my preferred statistic is that no one has ever died doing something cutting edge.
尽管我更喜欢的统计数据是，没有人因为做一些前沿的事情而死去。
So no one has ever died pushing the envelope, like doing something extreme.
因此，没有人因挑战极限而死去，比如做一些极端的事情。
Alex Honnold: There have been a couple free soloists who have died free soloing easy terrain, like just out doing something casual, and maybe a hold breaks or maybe something happens.
亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）：有几位自由独奏运动员在简单的地形中自由独奏死亡，就像只是出去做一些休闲的事情，也许会发生故障或者发生什么事情。
Like, it's impossible to know what because they die.
就像，不可能知道是什么，因为他们死了。
But then the bulk of other people who are sort of known for free soloing have died either in parachuting accidents, like wingsuiting or BASE jumping, or one got swept out to sea by a rogue wave.
但其他以自由独奏而闻名的人要么死于翼装飞行或定点跳伞等跳伞事故，要么被汹涌的海浪卷入大海。
That's kind of a freak thing.
这真是一件奇怪的事情。
One died in a car accident.
其中一人死于车祸。
You know, just like things like, you know, it's basically just ways that people die.
你知道，就像诸如此类的事情一样，这基本上就是人们死亡的方式。
Alex Honnold: So all that to say, it's not clear that free soloing is the most dangerous.
Alex Honnold：综上所述，目前尚不清楚徒手攀登是否是最危险的。
Andrew Huberman: We have a friend who unfortunately is dead now, Ken Block, who was a famous rally car driver and with our photographer here at the podcast, Mike Blabac, and film crews with DC, he developed...
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我们有一个不幸去世的朋友，肯·布洛克，他是一位著名的拉力赛车手，与我们播客的摄影师迈克·布拉巴克以及 DC 的电影摄制组一起，他开发了......
he was one of the founders of DC, like DC Shoes, DC Skateboarding, et cetera.
他是DC的创始人之一，像DC Shoes、DC Skateboarding等等。
Rally car.
拉力车。
Unfortunately died in a snowmobiling accident.
不幸在雪地摩托事故中丧生。
So something very like kind of conventional for his daily life.
所以这对于他的日常生活来说非常传统。
He lived out in Utah, and you know, obviously a huge tragedy.
他住在犹他州，你知道，这显然是一场巨大的悲剧。
And then you go look at kind of people who do, quote unquote "extreme sports," for lack of a better term.
然后你去看看那些做“极限运动”的人，因为缺乏更好的术语。
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And you find that it's fairly common for people who are at the peak of a field, of a sport, to die doing something else that they really enjoy.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：你会发现，对于那些处于某个领域、一项运动的巅峰的人来说，死于做他们真正喜欢的其他事情是很常见的。
And you kind of wonder like, are they pushing themselves or is it that they're just a little too relaxed?
你可能会想，他们是在逼迫自己，还是只是太放松了？
Because as you said, rarely do free soloists die like in the most difficult aspects of the climb.
因为正如你所说，自由独奏者很少会像在攀登中最困难的方面那样死去。
So maybe it's that letting go of the mental engagement.
所以也许这就是放弃精神投入。
Like, there's a change in the threshold of what they consider dangerous.
比如，他们认为危险的阈值发生了变化。
So unless they need to be locked in, there's just some lack of attention to detail.
因此，除非他们需要被锁定，否则只是缺乏对细节的关注。
This is my way of trying to save your life, basically, saying anything you're doing besides free soloing, be very, very careful, please.
这就是我试图拯救你生命的方式，基本上，除了徒手攀登之外，你所做的任何事情，请务必非常非常小心。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯，嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: Totally.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：完全可以。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, no, I appreciate that.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，不，我很欣赏这一点。
Alex Honnold: Rein it in.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：控制住它。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, we need you.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，我们需要你。
Alex Honnold: No, I mean, I also would suspect that all of the people that we're talking about are all just a little...
亚历克斯·霍诺德：不，我的意思是，我也会怀疑我们正在谈论的所有人都只是有点......
they're just bigger risk-takers in general.
一般来说，他们只是更大的冒险家。
They're just more willing to do things like drive quickly and, you know, do whatever.
他们只是更愿意做一些事情，比如开快车，或者做任何事情。
Just more willing to take risk in their life, and I suppose sooner or later those things catch up with you, or they can.
只是更愿意在生活中冒险，我想这些事情迟早会追上你，或者他们可以。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Alex Honnold: Though that said, with free soloing, two of the world's best free soloists from the previous generations are still alive.
亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）：尽管如此，在自由独奏方面，前几代世界上最好的自由独奏运动员仍然活着。
You know, older men just living their best lives, doing their thing.
你知道，年长的男人只是过着最好的生活，做自己的事情。
Andrew Huberman: Still free soloing?
Andrew Huberman：还在自由攀登吗？
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Maybe not a super high level, maybe not pushing themselves hard, but yeah, certainly could.
也许不是一个超高的水平，也许没有给自己很大的压力，但是，是的，当然可以。
So, a man named Peter Croft, he's a Canadian but has lived in the US forever.
彼得·克罗夫特 (Peter Croft) 是加拿大人，但一直居住在美国。
He was like my childhood hero growing up, and he's an incredible solo...\'a0
他就像我儿时的英雄一样成长，他是一个令人难以置信的独奏者......\'a0
Alex Honnold: Actually, there's a film with him, or a scene with him in the film, "Free Solo." He's kind of like a...
Alex Honnold：实际上，有一部电影里有他，或者电影《Free Solo》中有他的一个场景。他有点像一个...
They kind of frame him as a mentor figure, though honestly, he wasn't a mentor, because I was too afraid to ever even talk to him, because he was such a personal hero.
他们把他塑造成一个导师的形象，尽管说实话，他不是一个导师，因为我太害怕了，甚至不敢和他说话，因为他是一个个人英雄。
But I mean, he's incredible.
但我的意思是，他太不可思议了。
But he's a super nice guy.\'a0
但他是一个超级好人。\'a0
Alex Honnold: And so, we're both sponsored by The North Face now, so we're friends.
Alex Honnold：所以，我们现在都是 The North Face 的赞助商，所以我们是朋友。
We're on the same team, and so I've hung out with him at events and things.
我们在同一个团队，所以我和他一起参加活动和活动。
And I was having dinner with him once, and I was kind of like, "Oh, at what point did you, kind of, end the cutting-edge free soloing?" And he was like, "Oh, actually, I did a couple of my hardest solos, in terms of grades, not necessarily the most cutting-edge, but kind of the hardest grades, within the last several years." And I was like, "Really?" And he's still just kind of doing stuff and fit, and he's psyched.
有一次我和他一起吃晚饭，我有点想，“哦，你在什么时候结束了尖端的徒手攀登？”他说，“哦，实际上，我在过去几年里做了一些最难的独奏，就成绩而言，不一定是最前沿的，但也是最难的。”我当时想，“真的吗？”他仍然在做一些事情并且保持健康，而且他很兴奋。
And he's got to be...
而他必须是...
I don't know, I don't want to offend him, but he's got to be like mid-50s or maybe 60.
我不知道，我不想冒犯他，但他应该有 50 多岁或者 60 多岁。
Andrew Huberman: It's awesome.
安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, and he's just still incredible.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，他仍然令人难以置信。
He's still climbing all the time.
他仍然一直在攀登。
And even on his rest days, he goes down into the same climbing areas to hang out with his friends and chit-chat and like, take his dog to the cliff and stuff.
即使在休息日，他也会去同样的攀岩区和朋友们一起闲逛，闲聊之类的，带着他的狗去悬崖之类的。
So, I look at somebody like him, who's basically made an entire life of free soloing.
所以，我关注的是像他这样的人，他基本上一生都在自由攀登。
I'm kind of like, if you do it carefully, you make good decisions, I don't think it has to be sketchy.
我觉得，如果你仔细做，你就会做出正确的决定，我不认为它必须是粗略的。
Andrew Huberman: How awesome is it that you're friends and coworkers with one of your childhood heroes?
安德鲁·休伯曼：你能和你儿时的英雄之一成为朋友和同事，这有多棒？
Alex Honnold: Oh, it's the best.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：哦，这是最好的。
That was actually, I think, one of the best things about being a professional climber, is so many of the people that I looked up to as a kid now are friends and peers and things, and you're like, "Oh, it's so great."
我认为，这实际上是作为一名职业登山者最好的事情之一，就是我小时候尊敬的很多人现在都是朋友、同龄人等等，你会说，“哦，这太棒了。”
Andrew Huberman: It's wild, right?
Andrew Huberman：这很疯狂，对吧？
Alex Honnold: Yeah, yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，是的。
You get to hang out with your heroes, and you're like, "Not sure I would have..."
你可以和你的英雄一起出去玩，然后你会想，“不确定我是否会……”
Andrew Huberman: You never would have imagined.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：你绝对想不到。
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
No, it's amazing.
不，这太神奇了。
Andrew Huberman: There's some young kid out there now, thinking the same.
Andrew Huberman：现在有一些年轻人也有同样的想法。
He's like, "I'm too afraid to go up to Alex and say hello."\'a0
他就像是，“我太害怕了，不敢走到亚历克斯跟前打招呼。”\'a0
Alex Honnold: They should just say hello.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：他们应该打个招呼。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
And some day you may be working together.
有一天你们可能会一起工作。
Right?
正确的？
Alex Honnold: I don't I mean, in the same way that I...
Alex Honnold：我不是说，就像我...
Yeah, totally.
是的，完全可以。
I mean, in the same way that I was so afraid to ever talk to Peter when I was young, and then ultimately, now he's just another nice guy, and we're friends.
我的意思是，就像我年轻时非常害怕和彼得说话一样，最终，现在他只是另一个好人，我们是朋友。
We climb together.
我们一起爬。
It's great.\'a0
太棒了。\'a0
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: Sort of like, yeah, anybody should just say "Hi." You know, it's like if we're at the cliff, come chat.
Alex Honnold：有点像，是的，任何人都应该说“嗨”。你知道，这就像我们在悬崖边，来聊天。
You know, it's like we're all doing the same thing.
你知道，就好像我们都在做同样的事情。
Andrew Huberman: I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.
Andrew Huberman：我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。
AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens.
AG1 是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮料，还包含益生元和适应原。
As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 for more than 13 years now.
你们很多人都知道，我服用 AG1 已经超过 13 年了。
I discovered it way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been drinking it every day since.
我早在 2012 年就发现了它，那时我还没有播客，从那时起我就每天都喝它。
For the past 13 years, AG1 has been the same original flavor.
13年来，AG1始终如一的原味。
They've updated the formulation, but the flavor has always remained the same.\'a0
他们更新了配方，但味道始终保持不变。\'a0
Andrew Huberman: And now, for the first time, AG1 is available in three new flavors: berry, citrus, and tropical.
Andrew Huberman：现在，AG1 首次推出三种新口味：浆果、柑橘和热带口味。
All the flavors include the highest quality ingredients in exactly the right doses, to together provide support for your gut microbiome, support for your immune health, and support for better energy and more.
所有口味均包含最优质的成分和正确的剂量，共同为您的肠道微生物群提供支持，支持您的免疫健康，并支持更好的能量等等。
So, now you can find the flavor of AG1 that you like the most.
所以，现在你可以找到你最喜欢的AG1口味了。
While I've always loved the AG1 original flavor, especially when I mix it with water and a little bit of lemon or lime juice, that's how I've been doing it for basically 13 years, now I really enjoy the new berry flavor in particular.
虽然我一直很喜欢 AG1 原味，尤其是当我将它与水和一点柠檬或酸橙汁混合时，这就是我基本上 13 年的做法，现在我真的特别喜欢新的浆果味。
It tastes great, and I don't have to add any lemon or lime juice.
味道很好，而且我不需要添加任何柠檬或酸橙汁。
I just mix it up with water.\'a0
我只是将它与水混合。\'a0
Andrew Huberman: If you'd like to try AG1 and these new flavors, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.
Andrew Huberman：如果您想尝试 AG1 和这些新口味，您可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。
Right now, AG1 is giving away an AG1 welcome kit that includes five free travel packs and a free bottle of vitamin D3+K2.
目前，AG1 正在赠送 AG1 迎宾礼包，其中包括五个免费旅行包和一瓶免费维生素 D3+K2。
Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim the special welcome kit of five free travel packs and a free bottle of vitamin D3+K2.
再次访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 领取特别欢迎套装，其中包括五个免费旅行包和一瓶免费维生素 D3+K2。
Andrew Huberman: Today's episode is also brought to us by Maui Nui Venison.
Andrew Huberman：今天的节目也是由 Maui Nui Venison 为我们带来的。
Maui Nui Venison is the most nutrient-dense and delicious red meat available.
毛伊努伊鹿肉是营养最丰富、最美味的红肉。
It's also ethically sourced.
它也是有道德来源的。
Maui Nui hunts and harvests wild axis deer on the island of Maui.
毛伊努伊 (Maui Nui) 在毛伊岛上狩猎和收获野生轴鹿。
This solves the problem of managing an invasive species while also creating an extraordinary source of protein.\'a0
这解决了管理入侵物种的问题，同时还创造了非凡的蛋白质来源。\'a0
Andrew Huberman: As I've discussed on this podcast before, most people should aim for getting one gram of quality protein per pound of body weight each day.
Andrew Huberman：正如我之前在这个播客中讨论过的那样，大多数人的目标应该是每天每磅体重摄入一克优质蛋白质。
This allows for optimal muscle protein synthesis while also helping to reduce appetite and support proper metabolic health.
这可以实现最佳的肌肉蛋白质合成，同时还有助于降低食欲并支持适当的代谢健康。
Given Maui Nui's exceptional protein-to-calorie ratio, this protein target is achievable without having to eat too many calories.
鉴于毛伊努伊岛卓越的蛋白质与卡路里比率，无需摄入太多卡路里即可实现这一蛋白质目标。
Their venison delivers 21 grams of protein with only 107 grams per serving, which is an ideal ratio for those of us concerned with maintaining or increasing muscle mass while supporting metabolic health.\'a0
他们的鹿肉提供 21 克蛋白质，每份仅 107 克，对于我们这些关心维持或增加肌肉质量同时支持代谢健康的人来说，这是一个理想的比例。'a0
Andrew Huberman: They have venison steaks, ground venison, and venison bone broth.
Andrew Huberman：他们有鹿肉排、鹿肉末和鹿骨汤。
I personally love all of them.
我个人很喜欢他们所有人。
In fact, I probably eat a Maui Nui venison burger pretty much every day, and if I don't do that, I eat one of their steaks, and sometimes I also consume their bone broth.
事实上，我可能几乎每天都会吃毛伊努伊鹿肉汉堡，如果我不这样做，我就会吃他们的一份牛排，有时我也会喝他们的骨头汤。
And if you're on the go, they have Maui Nui venison sticks, which have 10 grams of protein per stick with just 55 calories.
如果您在旅途中，他们还提供毛伊努伊鹿肉棒，每棒含有 10 克蛋白质，仅含有 55 卡路里热量。
I eat at least one of those a day to meet my protein requirements.\'a0
我每天至少吃其中一种来满足我的蛋白质需求。\'a0
Andrew Huberman: Right now, Maui Nui is offering Huberman podcast listeners a limited collection of my favorite cuts and products.
Andrew Huberman：现在，Maui Nui 正在为 Huberman 播客听众提供我最喜欢的剪辑和产品的有限集合。
It's perfect for anyone looking to improve their diet with delicious, high-quality protein.
对于那些希望通过美味、优质蛋白质来改善饮食的人来说，它是完美的选择。
Supplies are limited, so go to mauinuivenison.com/huberman to get access to this high-quality meat today.
供应有限，因此请立即访问 mauinuivenison.com/huberman 获取这种高品质肉类。
Again, that's mauinuivenison.com/huberman.\'a0
再说一次，这是 mauinuivenison.com/huberman。\'a0
Andrew Huberman: Do most climbers, as they're coming up, if they have aspirations to be great free soloists or other types of climbers, do they tend to work and do other things?
Andrew Huberman：大多数登山者，当他们即将成长时，如果他们渴望成为伟大的自由独奏者或其他类型的登山者，他们会倾向于工作和做其他事情吗？
Or is this like a, you're all in, it's a lifestyle, you live in a van?
或者这就像，你都在，这是一种生活方式，你住在一辆货车里？
I mean, you can also do that after achieving some degree of financial success.
我的意思是，在取得一定程度的财务成功后，您也可以这样做。
We know you've done that.
我们知道你已经这么做了。
We can talk about that.
我们可以谈谈这个。
But is it the kind of thing where you have to give up other aspects of life in order to get really good at it?
但这是那种你必须放弃生活的其他方面才能真正擅长的事情吗？
Alex Honnold: That's an interesting question.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：这是一个有趣的问题。
I'm not totally sure, because in some ways, it depends on what you mean by achieving success as a climber.
我不完全确定，因为在某些方面，这取决于你作为一名登山者取得成功的含义。
Because if you're trying to climb the hardest grades or go to the Olympics or things like that, in some ways, you're almost better off being a university student or something, like having a structured schedule, that in some ways limits the amount that you can climb, because...
因为如果你想攀登最难的成绩或参加奥运会或类似的事情，在某些方面，你最好还是成为一名大学生或其他什么，比如有一个结构化的时间表，这在某种程度上限制了你可以攀登的数量，因为......
I don't know enough about other sports, but I suspect this is akin to powerlifting or something, where it's like if you're trying to be really, really strong, you only need to do a little bit every couple of days, and then recover.\'a0
我对其他运动了解不够，但我怀疑这类似于举重或其他运动，就像如果你想变得非常非常强壮，你只需要每隔几天做一点，然后恢复。'a0
Alex Honnold: And so, for sort of elite physical training for climbing, you really only need, say, three or four hour sessions, four or five days a week.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：因此，对于攀岩的精英体能训练，你实际上只需要，比如说，每周四到五天、三到四个小时的训练。
And then it's like, what do you do with the rest of your time?
然后就会想，你剩下的时间都做什么？
And so, you might as well have a job or...
所以，你最好有一份工作或者......
And so, a lot of my friends who write code for a living or do things like that are very, very strong climbers because of the schedule that it allows, the structure.\'a0
因此，我的很多以编写代码为生或做类似事情的朋友都是非常非常强大的攀登者，因为它允许的时间表和结构。\'a0
Alex Honnold: That said, I think if you want to be a great free soloist or a big adventure climber, you're probably better off living in a van and just doing the thing nonstop, because for that, you're not trying to have that peak muscular performance.
亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）：也就是说，我认为如果你想成为一名出色的自由独奏者或大冒险登山者，你可能最好住在一辆货车里，不停地做这件事，因为为此，你并不试图拥有巅峰的肌肉表现。
You're trying to just learn a skill and do something all the time.
你一直在努力学习一项技能并做一些事情。
And so then, hours of practice, I think, matter more in a way.
因此，我认为，在某种程度上，练习时间更重要。
Andrew Huberman: Maybe we can talk a little bit about recovery, as long as we're talking about the number of hours that one puts in.
安德鲁·休伯曼：也许我们可以谈谈恢复，只要我们谈论的是一个人投入的时间。
I'm sure your recovery looks different than it used to.
我确信你的康复情况与以前有所不同。
But what do you do to recover between sessions?
但是在两次训练之间你会做什么来恢复呢？
Are you a big believer in sauna, cold?
您是桑拿、冷疗的忠实信徒吗？
Or is it just basically sleep?
或者只是基本上睡觉？
Alex Honnold: No, I just...
亚历克斯·霍诺德：不，我只是……
Alex Honnold: No, I push my three-year-old on the swings, you know?
亚历克斯·霍诺德：不，我推着我三岁的孩子荡秋千，你知道吗？
That's how I recover, is like I play with the kids on the swings.
这就是我恢复的方式，就像我和孩子们一起荡秋千一样。
I mean, I try to eat relatively well.
我的意思是，我尽量吃得相对好一些。
I try to sleep enough.
我试着睡够。
I do all the basics for recovery.
我做了所有恢复的基础工作。
But no, I mean, I basically just survive in between.
但不，我的意思是，我基本上只是在两者之间生存。
Alex Honnold: I was actually just joking with somebody that I think, as a 24-year-old living by myself in a van, I would have crazy days of climbing, and then on a rest day, I would like binge-watch an entire season of some show while eating an entire flat of Oreos, and just never even leave the bed of my van, and then the next day go out and do a speed record on something or just be like, "Ah, I'm so psyched."
Alex Honnold：我实际上只是和某人开玩笑说，作为一个独自生活在货车里的 24 岁年轻人，我会度过疯狂的攀爬日子，然后在休息日，我会一边吃一整块奥利奥，一边狂看一季的节目，甚至永远不会离开我的货车床，然后第二天出去做一些速度记录，或者只是说，“啊，我太兴奋了。”
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: And now, I'm definitely not doing that now, or at least...
亚历克斯·霍诺德：现在，我绝对不会这样做，或者至少......
No, I haven't done that in forever, because I just don't have the time and don't have...
不，我从来没有这样做过，因为我只是没有时间，也没有......
Yeah, so I think now it takes a little more effort to recover, and it's just a little slower, probably.
是的，所以我认为现在需要多一点努力才能恢复，而且可能会慢一点。
Andrew Huberman: So, all this...
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，这一切......
Alex Honnold: But it's hard to say, though, because a lot of that is just having kids and just having different demands of time and life.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：但这很难说，因为很多只是生孩子，对时间和生活有不同的要求。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: But it sounds like climbers are pretty grassroots in their training and techniques.
Andrew Huberman：但听起来登山者的训练和技术都相当草根。
Like, in a lot of other areas...
就像，在很多其他领域......
Alex Honnold: Yeah, I mean, I was living in a van.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，我是说，我住在一辆货车里。
I was basically super low overhead, no team, no support.
我基本上是超低开销，没有团队，没有支持。
I'm just living in a car doing the thing nonstop for a decade.
我就住在车里，十年来不停地做着这件事。
And so, that's a pretty scrappy approach.
所以，这是一个相当斗志旺盛的方法。
And I think that in the years since then, climbing has professionalized a little bit.
我认为从那以后的几年里，攀岩已经变得更加专业化了。
And there's a little more money.
而且还有一点钱。
There's a little more support.
还有一点支持。
And there's just a higher level of competition.
而且竞争水平更高。
I think it'd be harder to achieve things doing just that now.
我认为现在这样做会更难实现目标。
I think you'd have to have a little more of a plan.\'a0
我认为你必须有更多的计划。\'a0
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I can't help but sense that hyperbaric chambers and red light and massage guns and all that are going to be making their way into the climbing culture.
Andrew Huberman：是的，我不禁感觉到高压舱、红灯和按摩枪以及所有这些都将进入攀岩文化。
Alex Honnold: Well, massage guns for sure are there.
Alex Honnold：嗯，按摩枪肯定在那里。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.\'a0
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。\'a0
Alex Honnold: Yeah, massage guns are there.\'a0
Alex Honnold：是的，按摩枪就在那里。\'a0
Andrew Huberman: Yep.\'a0
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。\'a0
Andrew Huberman: Yep.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Alex Honnold: I try to roll out every once in a while.\'a0
Alex Honnold：我每隔一段时间就会尝试推出一次。\'a0
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: Even when I was living in my van, I would stretch and roll out and do those types of things because you just kind of have to stay supple.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：即使当我住在我的货车里时，我也会伸展、滚动并做这些类型的事情，因为你必须保持柔软。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, how do you feel?
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，你感觉怎么样？
How's your body feel?
你的身体感觉怎么样？
Alex Honnold: Well, I mean, right now, I think pretty good.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯，我的意思是，现在，我认为很好。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: I don't know.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：我不知道。
Yeah, I live in Las Vegas.
是的，我住在拉斯维加斯。
When I'm at home, I try to see this body worker in town once a week, Pat.
当我在家时，我会尝试每周去城里见见这位身体工作人员一次，帕特。
Sweet Pat.
甜蜜的帕特。
He's the man.
他就是那个男人。
And so, I think of that as kind of a basic, just taking care of...
所以，我认为这是一种基本的，只是照顾......
It's like an oil change.
这就像换油一样。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: It's like making sure the engine runs smoothly.
Alex Honnold：这就像确保发动机平稳运行一样。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: And I think as a result of body work like that, I haven't had any major overuse injuries in years.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：我认为由于这样的身体锻炼，我多年来没有遭受过任何严重的过度使用伤害。
And so, that's pretty good for me.
所以，这对我来说非常好。
Andrew Huberman: Awesome.
安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。
Yeah, maybe it's just because historically it was what I knew, but I'm seeing so many parallels with skateboarding, where there was this time when no skateboarders lifted weights or did any kind of fitness.
是的，也许这只是因为历史上这是我所知道的，但我看到了很多与滑板的相似之处，曾经有一次没有滑板运动员举重或进行任何形式的健身。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, yeah, totally.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，是的，完全如此。
Andrew Huberman: Then that started to happen.
Andrew Huberman：然后这种情况就开始发生了。
Actually, Danny Way, who jumped the Great Wall of China, he was kind of the first person in skateboarding to like...
事实上，跳过中国长城的 Danny Way，他是滑板运动中第一个喜欢……的人。
He would do neck training because he had broken his neck surfing in Newport.
他会做颈部训练，因为他在纽波特冲浪时摔断了脖子。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And he was doing these, like where you swing the ball above your head.
安德鲁·休伯曼：他正在做这些，就像你将球挥过头顶一样。
He was doing core work.
他正在做核心工作。
And I remember back then thinking I'd sort of left skateboarding at that point.
我记得当时我想我应该离开滑板了。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, it was on the fringe.
Alex Honnold：是的，它位于边缘。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
You're like, "That's weird."
你会说，“这很奇怪。”
Andrew Huberman: And I was thinking, skateboarders are going to really have a problem with this, because it wasn't consistent with the culture.
Andrew Huberman：我在想，滑板运动员确实会遇到这个问题，因为这与文化不符。
Now, there are a lot of guys who work out and are taking care of their bodies.\'a0
现在，有很多人锻炼身体并照顾自己的身体。\'a0
Alex Honnold: Totally.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：完全可以。
Andrew Huberman: But there are still a lot of guys who absolutely kill it.
Andrew Huberman：但是仍然有很多人完全杀死了它。
They're incredible, and their energy drink is a beer.
他们太棒了，他们的能量饮料是啤酒。
And their quote, unquote, "nootropic" is cigarettes, and they murder it.
他们引用的，不引用的，“促智”是香烟，他们谋杀了它。
They're super good.
他们超级好。
And so, I like these sports where it's like, you can't get around just investing a massive number of hours doing it, and then you can either take the kind of rock and roll track into it, or you can take the kind of self-care track.
所以，我喜欢这些运动，因为你不能仅仅投入大量的时间来做它，然后你可以选择摇滚乐的方式，或者你可以选择自我保健的方式。
And sometimes people cross over, but you know, it works either way.\'a0
有时人们会跨越，但你知道，无论哪种方式都会起作用。\'a0
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: It really does.
安德鲁·休伯曼：确实如此。
Alex Honnold: Climbing still has that exact same thing going on, where you can kind of go either way.
Alex Honnold：攀岩仍然存在同样的情况，你可以选择任何一种方式。
I do think, though, that the self-care track will obviously win out long term.
不过，我确实认为，从长远来看，自我保健显然会胜出。
I mean, that's the thing with climbing being in the Olympics and just the professionalism, all that.
我的意思是，这就是攀岩进入奥运会的意义所在，以及专业精神，所有这些。
I mean, obviously, self-care is better for you long term.
我的意思是，显然，从长远来看，自我保健对你来说更好。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: Because, like, everybody knows that.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：因为，每个人都知道这一点。
That said, you still see a lot of very proficient climbers who, yeah, exactly, just kind of party, go hard.
也就是说，你仍然会看到很多非常熟练的登山者，是的，确切地说，只是一种聚会，努力奋斗。
I mean, because so much of climbing just comes down to effort when you're doing the thing.
我的意思是，因为很多攀登都取决于你在做这件事时的努力。
Like, if you go climbing several days a week, and you try your absolute hardest every time you're climbing, you're going to get pretty freaking good, you know, whether you do red light therapy or any of the weird other stuff or not.\'a0
就像，如果你每周去攀岩几天，并且每次攀岩时你都尽最大努力，你就会变得非常好，你知道，无论你是否进行红光疗法或任何奇怪的其他东西。\'a0
Andrew Huberman: \'a0Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：“嗯嗯。”
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: So, it's like, I mean, it really just comes down to your effort doing the thing.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：所以，我的意思是，这实际上取决于你做这件事的努力。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: And so, yeah, I mean, you could live...
亚历克斯·霍诺德：所以，是的，我的意思是，你可以活下去……
And I mean, a lot of climbers, especially in the past, lived on a diet of cigarettes and coffee and fricking beer.
我的意思是，很多登山者，尤其是过去的登山者，靠香烟、咖啡和啤酒为生。
And you can get by that way.
你可以通过那条路。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, the 1970s-'80s approach.
Andrew Huberman：是的，1970 年代至 80 年代的方法。
Alex Honnold: It's not ideal.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：这并不理想。
Andrew Huberman: It's not ideal.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这并不理想。
A friend of mine, Tom Bilyeu, he is very successful in business.
我的一个朋友，Tom Bilyeu，他在商业上非常成功。
He also has a podcast, and he was saying to me the other day, he goes...
他也有一个播客，有一天他对我说，他...
Yeah, basically, when young people ask him how to get good at whatever, business or anything, he just tells them, "Work as if smartphones didn't exist." Meaning, when you're bored, go work on the thing.
是的，基本上，当年轻人问他如何擅长做生意或任何事情时，他只是告诉他们，“就像智能手机不存在一样工作。”意思是，当你无聊的时候，就去做这件事。
When you don't have anything...\'a0
当你什么都没有的时候...\'a0
Alex Honnold: Totally.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：完全可以。
Andrew Huberman: Like, if you get rid...
安德鲁·休伯曼：就像，如果你摆脱......
I'm not encouraging people get rid of their smartphone, but I'm curious about your relationship to technology because I think nowadays, even though there are people training for the Olympics and whatnot, it is very hard to disengage from pressures of sponsors, pressures of just sheer communications, right?
我并不是鼓励人们摆脱智能手机，但我很好奇你与技术的关系，因为我认为现在，即使有人为奥运会等进行训练，也很难摆脱赞助商的压力，纯粹沟通的压力，对吗？
Alex Honnold: Totally.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：完全可以。
Alex Honnold: Mm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And if you're coming up, this idea that you always have to be in contact with people, it limits the total number of reps that you get physically, but also mentally.
安德鲁·休伯曼：如果你要上来，你总是必须与人接触，这会限制你在身体上和精神上得到的代表总数。
Alex Honnold: Totally.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：完全可以。
Andrew Huberman: Because I imagine there was a lot of time sitting back in bed and thinking about climbing.
安德鲁·休伯曼：因为我想有很多时间坐在床上思考攀登。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Just like I used to sit back in bed and think about experiments when I was in graduate school.
Andrew Huberman：就像我在读研究生时经常坐在床上思考实验一样。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Now I'd probably...
安德鲁·休伯曼：现在我可能......
If that...
如果那...
If phones didn't exist...
如果手机不存在的话...
I'd probably be on my phone.
我可能会在打电话。
Alex Honnold: Now that time would be full of something.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：现在那个时间会充满一些东西。
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I used to think about experiments and figures and what would this work, and that work.
Andrew Huberman：我曾经思考过实验和数据，以及这个和那个会起到什么作用。
So, what are your thoughts on kind of a mental engagement separate from climbing?
那么，您对于攀岩以外的精神投入有何看法？
Alex Honnold: No, I think that's definitely a big thing.
Alex Honnold：不，我认为这绝对是一件大事。
I mean, I think...
我的意思是，我认为...
I've thought in the past that, in some ways, I feel kind of lucky that I came up when I did in climbing, where it's like sort of pre-smartphone, pre-social.
我过去曾认为，在某些方面，我觉得自己很幸运，因为我在攀岩中成长起来，这就像前智能手机、前社交时代。
You know, you just live in your car, and you do the thing, and that's it, and that's your whole lifestyle.
你知道，你只是住在你的车里，你做事，就是这样，这就是你的整个生活方式。
I mean, currently, I have all the social media accounts and things, but I don't have any of the apps on my phone.
我的意思是，目前我拥有所有社交媒体帐户和其他东西，但我的手机上没有任何应用程序。
I have a friend that manages it for me.
我有一个朋友帮我管理它。
I send all the content to her, but she'd post stuff.
我将所有内容发送给她，但她会发布内容。
And so, it's a nice way to sort of disconnect myself from scrolling aimlessly.
因此，这是一种让自己摆脱漫无目的地滚动的好方法。
I don't really have the time anymore anyway.
反正我真的没有时间了。
You know, it's like I'd rather play with my kids than scroll.\'a0
你知道，就像我宁愿和我的孩子们一起玩，也不愿滚动。\'a0
Andrew Huberman: Sure.
安德鲁·休伯曼：当然。
Alex Honnold: But no, I mean, that's tough.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：但是不，我的意思是，这很难。
I mean, I think it'd be hard to be a kid now growing up, like thinking that that's the norm, that you have to be connected, that you have to be capturing everything, documenting it, and then sharing it and posting it, and just all the stuff.
我的意思是，我认为现在作为一个成长中的孩子很难，就像认为这是常态，你必须保持联系，你必须捕捉一切，记录它，然后分享和发布它，以及所有的东西。
I've always felt like the thing about being a professional climber is that you just have to be a good climber.
我一直觉得成为一名职业登山者的关键在于你必须成为一名优秀的登山者。
Like, first and foremost, the key to being a professional climber is being able to climb really well.
首先，成为一名职业登山者的关键是能够很好地攀爬。
And the most important thing is doing the thing.
而最重要的是把事情做好。
And I just think when you get caught up in all the posting, sharing, streaming, all the whatever, that's not doing the thing, you know?
我只是认为，当你沉迷于所有的发布、分享、流媒体等所有事情时，那不是在做事情，你知道吗？
But it's easy to conflate them, and it's...
但很容易将它们混为一谈，而且......
I don't know.
我不知道。
Yeah.
是的。
No, I think it'd be really hard.
不，我认为这真的很难。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I agree completely.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，我完全同意。
And the hidden secret is that if you want something interesting to show on social media, the key is to not be on social media so you have something to bring to it.
隐藏的秘密是，如果你想在社交媒体上展示一些有趣的东西，关键是不要出现在社交媒体上，这样你就可以带来一些东西。
Alex Honnold: Totally.\'a0
亚历克斯·霍诺德：完全可以。\'a0
Alex Honnold: It's just so hard to actually be good at something, and it's...\'a0
Alex Honnold：真正擅长某件事实在是太难了，而且......\'a0
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: And this goes back to what we were just talking about with free soloing and perceived risk and all that kind of stuff, is, it is really easy to make something look rad, soloing-wise.\'a0
亚历克斯·霍诺德：这又回到了我们刚才谈论的自由独奏和感知风险以及所有类似的东西，那就是，让一些东西看起来很酷，独奏明智的。\'a0
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.\'a0
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。\'a0
Alex Honnold: Like, I could climb the outside of this building, and it would look insane.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：就像，我可以爬到这座建筑物的外面，这看起来很疯狂。
It would get tons of likes.
它会得到很多人的喜欢。
People would think it's cool.
人们会认为这很酷。
But it's not cutting edge.
但这并不是最前沿的。
It's not cool.
这不酷。
It's not even hard.
这并不难。
Like, it's not...
比如说，这不是...
It's whatever.
随便吧。
But to actually do something that's cutting edge or newsworthy in climbing is pretty freaking hard.
但要真正做一些攀岩领域前沿或有新闻价值的事情是非常困难的。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: You know?
亚历克斯·霍诺德：你知道吗？
And the challenge with social and with public, all that kind of stuff, is that it's just so easy to...
社交和公众的挑战，所有这些东西，是很容易......
I don't want to say to fake it, because it's not like people are out there trying to be duplicitous or to trick you.
我不想说假装，因为这不像人们试图欺骗或欺骗你。
But it's just you can get the same splash with none of the effort through social stuff, I think.
但我认为，你不需要通过社交活动付出任何努力就能获得同样的轰动。
You're like, "Oh, I just did something easy, and people thought it was amazing.
你会说，“哦，我只是做了一些简单的事情，人们认为这太棒了。
Let's call that good." And you're like, "Well, that's just not good because it's easy." It's freaking...
我们就说这很好吧。”你会说，“好吧，这不太好，因为它很容易。”太吓人了...
You know, it's not cutting edge.
你知道，这不是最前沿的。
It's not rad.
这不是拉德。
Andrew Huberman: I mean, you clearly go after big, big goals.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我的意思是，你显然追求很大很大的目标。
I mean, it's a giant goal.
我的意思是，这是一个巨大的目标。
I think it really stands...
我觉得还真的是站得住...
And I know you've been told this many times before, so, if it embarrasses you in a positive way, then great.
我知道你之前已经被告知过很多次了，所以，如果它以积极的方式让你感到尴尬，那就太好了。
I mean, it stands as perhaps at least one of the most impressive physical feats in history, because the risk consequence scenario there was, you fall, you can potentially die.
我的意思是，这可能至少是历史上最令人印象深刻的身体壮举之一，因为存在风险后果场景，你跌倒，你可能会死亡。
There may have been moments along the climb where...
在攀登过程中可能有一些时刻......
Alex Honnold: Few brief moments, yeah.
Alex Honnold：是的，只有几个简短的时刻。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, brief moments.
Andrew Huberman：是的，短暂的时刻。
Alex Honnold: Where you're right above a ledge.
Alex Honnold：你就在壁架上方。
You're like, "Oh, wow."
你会说，“哦，哇。”
Andrew Huberman: Right.
安德鲁·休伯曼：对。
Yeah.
是的。
So, okay, and it's so like you to point out those moments as opposed to all the other moments.
所以，好吧，你很喜欢指出那些时刻而不是所有其他时刻。
It really speaks to your mindset.
它真的很符合你的心态。
But I think that going after big things, I mean, building rockets to go to the moon.
但我认为追求伟大的事情，我的意思是，建造火箭去月球。
I remember when I was a kid, Danny Way decided to jump the Great Wall of China, to do it live.
我记得当我还是个孩子的时候，Danny Way 决定现场跳过中国长城。
Someone had died trying it on a mountain bike.
有人在山地自行车上尝试时死亡。
I remember thinking...
我记得我当时想...
I watched it on a little screen this big, and it was like I've known that guy since...
我在这么大的小屏幕上观看了它，就好像我从那时起就认识那个人了......
We're out of touch now, for the most part, but since I was 13, and he was always going after big things, jumping out of helicopters, jumping the Great Wall of China, you know.\'a0
我们现在大部分时间都失去了联系，但从我 13 岁起，他总是在追求伟大的目标，从直升机上跳下来，跳过中国的长城，你知道。\'a0
Andrew Huberman: And then there are people who just push themselves.
安德鲁·休伯曼：有些人只是自我鞭策。
And so, what I wonder is, on a daily basis, when you climb, do you ever just climb for fun?
所以，我想知道的是，每天，当你攀爬时，你是否只是为了好玩而攀爬？
When you climb, are you always working on something?
当你攀登时，你总是在做某件事吗？
And there's this famous scene in "Free Solo," more or less immediately after you got down from the climb, you're fingerboarding again, and you're training, and you're enjoying your routine, which, by the way, is consistent with keeping the dopamine flowing for process as opposed to the postpartum depression that many people experience after a big feat is completed.
《Free Solo》中有一个著名的场景，或多或少在你从攀爬下来后，你再次开始指板，你正在训练，你正在享受你的例行公事，顺便说一句，这与保持多巴胺流动以进行过程是一致的，而不是许多人在完成一项伟大壮举后经历的产后抑郁症。
Selling a big company, et cetera.\'a0
出售一家大公司等等。\'a0
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: You avoid all that by doing exactly what you're doing.
Andrew Huberman：通过准确地做你正在做的事情，你可以避免这一切。
But then how quickly did your mind pivot to like, "Okay, what's next?" In the domain of climbing, because I realize you've had two children.
但你的思维很快就会转向“好吧，接下来做什么？”在攀登领域，因为我知道你有两个孩子。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: You've got other aspects of your life.
Andrew Huberman：你还有生活的其他方面。
But where's your mind in terms of where you want to take your life and your climbing?
但对于你想要的生活和攀登，你的想法在哪里？
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
On the one hand, I set big goals, I guess, something like El Cap.
一方面，我设定了远大的目标，我想，像 El Cap 之类的。
But the thing is, I would actually say that's more the outgrowth of setting consistent little goals like all the time.
但问题是，我实际上想说，这更多的是像一直以来设定一致的小目标的结果。
I basically always have a running to-do list of, "What am I doing tomorrow?
我基本上总是有一个不断运行的待办事项清单，“明天我要做什么？
What am I doing today?
我今天在做什么？
What am I trying to do this week?" And that extends to climbing as well, with what are all the little things I can be doing?
这周我想做什么？”这也延伸到攀登，我能做的所有小事有哪些？
What are the little things I can tick this week?\'a0
这周我可以勾选哪些小事情？\'a0
Alex Honnold: You know, I have my climbing journal that goes back to 2005 or 2006 or something.
Alex Honnold：你知道，我的攀登日记可以追溯到 2005 年或 2006 年之类的。
So, basically, everything I've ever climbed is logged with difficulty and times and whatever.
所以，基本上，我攀爬过的所有东西都记录了难度、时间等等。
And so, I'm constantly trying to tick things as a climber, just like to do new climbs that I haven't done before.
所以，作为一名登山者，我不断地尝试去完成一些事情，就像做我以前没有做过的新攀登一样。
And so, I mean, I think actually, my day of climbing yesterday could be a good example of this.
所以，我的意思是，我认为实际上，我昨天的攀登可能就是一个很好的例子。
So, yesterday, my wife and I dropped off our older daughter at school, went to the cliff, did a day of sport climbing, and then picked up our daughter on the way home.
所以，昨天，我和妻子把我们的大女儿送到学校，去了悬崖，进行了一天的运动攀岩，然后在回家的路上接了我们的女儿。
It's like a perfect day like that, where you can kind of make it all work.\'a0
这就像那样完美的一天，你可以让一切顺利进行。\'a0
Alex Honnold: And I'm not going to be able to go to that cliff very often this season just because of travel and work, and life, basically.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：这个赛季我不会经常因为旅行、工作和生活而去那个悬崖。
So, I don't want to have any big project there, because I just won't have time to do it.
所以，我不想在那里有任何大项目，因为我没有时间去做。
You know, I'm trying to set my goals appropriately, where I'm like, "Oh, there's no point in trying to do something that would take me a month or two to achieve if I only have three days."\'a0
你知道，我试图适当地设定我的目标，我会想，“哦，如果我只有三天的时间，那么尝试做一些需要一两个月才能实现的事情是没有意义的。”\'a0
Alex Honnold: And so, I had a goal for that day of trying to do this very particular little combination of routes that I hadn't done before.
亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）：所以，那天我的目标是尝试做这个我以前从未做过的非常特别的小路线组合。
It's just something new, something interesting.
这只是一些新的、有趣的东西。
It's not that hard.
这并不难。
But then we got there, and it was like the worst condition.
但当我们到达那里时，情况就像是最糟糕的。
It was like 86 degrees when we parked the car.
我们停车的时候气温大概是86度。
And so, it's like you're trying to work out in horrendously hot.
所以，就像你试图在酷热的天气里锻炼一样。
Alex Honnold: And it was also that kind of monsoony, so it was very humid.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：而且也是那种季风，所以非常潮湿。
So, we got to the wall, and it's disgusting.
所以，我们到了墙边，这很恶心。
And I was kind of like, "Well, you know, it's a training day." Like, whatever.
我有点想，“好吧，你知道，这是训练日。”喜欢，无论如何。
And so, I tried to do this new combination of routes.
因此，我尝试了这种新的路线组合。
Ultimately I failed on it.
最终我失败了。
I fell at the very freaking top of the wall.
我摔在了非常可怕的墙顶上。
I was so maxxed and didn't do it.
我太兴奋了，所以没有这么做。
I'll probably get a chance to go back on Monday and I'll for sure do it then.\'a0
我可能会在周一有机会回去，然后我一定会这么做。\'a0
Alex Honnold: But you know, it's like a very small goal.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：但你知道，这就像一个非常小的目标。
Like, this isn't cutting edge, like big.
就像，这不是尖端技术，而是大的。
This isn't even cool at all.
这根本就不酷。
Like, my friends won't even care.
就像，我的朋友根本不会关心。
Like, they'll think it's stupid.
就像，他们会认为这是愚蠢的。
But it's nice for me to have a reason to try my hardest for that particular day of climbing.
但对我来说，有理由在攀登的那一天竭尽全力是件好事。
And I think that the big goals come as a result of all those little things.
我认为大目标是所有这些小事情的结果。
Like, if day-by-day, you're constantly doing something that's a little bit new, a little bit different, a little bit harder, you know, whatever seems like the appropriate challenge for that day, I think that looking back at 20 years of climbing outside non-stop, that the big things have just come as a natural outgrowth of all those little things.
就像，如果日复一日，你不断地做一些有点新、有点不同、有点难的事情，你知道，无论什么看起来适合当天的挑战，我认为回顾 20 年不间断的户外攀登，大事只是所有这些小事的自然产物。
You do enough little things all the time, and then every once in a while, something big happens.
你一直在做足够多的小事，然后每隔一段时间，就会发生一些大事。
Alex Honnold: And so, I don't know.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：所以，我不知道。
You know, but I have to-do lists going back years of like goals and all these aspirations.
你知道，但我有待办事项清单，可以追溯到多年前的类似目标和所有这些愿望。
And some years, I only do half of them.
有些年份，我只做了一半。
Some years, I do a third of them.
有些年头，我会做其中的三分之一。
And then, something like free soloing El Cap sat on a list like that literally for years, and it kept floating to the next year, to the next year.
然后，像徒手攀登 El Cap 这样的项目在这样的名单上已经存在了很多年，而且它一直飘到下一年，下一年。
Because you get into Yosemite, and you look at the wall, and you're like, "No, that's not..." You're like, "It's totally out of the question." And so, you just punt to the next year.
因为你进入优胜美地，看着墙壁，你会想，“不，那不是……”你会想，“这完全不可能。”所以，你只需把赌注押到明年。
And so, yeah, I mean, sometimes the goals don't happen, sometimes they do.
所以，是的，我的意思是，有时目标不会实现，有时却会实现。
But you kind of just have to let it play out.
但你必须让它发挥出来。
It's more like the day-to-day little challenges.
这更像是日常的小挑战。
Andrew Huberman: I love how matter-of-fact you are about it.
Andrew Huberman：我喜欢你的实事求是态度。
You are wired different.
你是不同的。
Alex Honnold: You think?
亚历克斯·霍诺德：你认为？
I mean...
我的意思是...
Andrew Huberman: Well, maybe not.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：嗯，也许不是。
I mean, because...
我的意思是，因为...
And this is a vastly less high-risk, high-consequence endeavor, but public speaking doesn't make me...
这是一项风险低得多、后果严重的努力，但公开演讲并不会让我……
It doesn't raise my level of cortisol or autonomic arousal at all, because I've done so much of it, right?
它根本不会提高我的皮质醇或自主神经唤醒水平，因为我已经做了这么多，对吧？
Alex Honnold: Yeah, because you're super well-practiced, yeah.
Alex Honnold：是的，因为你训练得非常好，是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I mean, just...
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，我的意思是，只是......
Yeah.
是的。
So, sometimes I'll think like, "Oh, I'm a little more keyed up than I want to be," and I know how to calm myself down.
所以，有时我会想，“哦，我比我想要的更紧张了一点，”我知道如何让自己平静下来。
Alex Honnold: Totally.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：完全可以。
Alex Honnold: Well, I'm actually...\'a0
Alex Honnold：嗯，我实际上...\'a0
Andrew Huberman: Yeah?
安德鲁·休伯曼：是吗？
Alex Honnold: I feel the same way with public speaking now, but that's after years of practice because it used to be so stressful for me.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：我现在对公开演讲也有同样的感觉，但那是经过多年的练习，因为它曾经对我来说压力很大。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Oh, yeah?
安德鲁·休伯曼：哦，是吗？
Alex Honnold: Like, so...
亚历克斯·霍诺德：就像，所以......
Yeah.
是的。
No, I was so shy.
不，我太害羞了。
Andrew Huberman: Proof that your amygdala does work like everybody else's.
Andrew Huberman：证明你的杏仁核确实像其他人一样工作。
Yeah.
是的。
Alex Honnold: But totally.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：但完全是这样。
Alex Honnold: No, I mean, exactly.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：不，我的意思是，完全正确。
That's why I hate all this stuff.
这就是为什么我讨厌所有这些东西。
It's like, "Oh, you're just wired differently." Because I'm like, no. I know that, you know, yeah, public...
就像是，“哦，你只是线路不同而已。”因为我想，不。我知道，你知道，是的，公共......
Like, speaking in front of a class in school was mortifying.
就像在学校里在全班同学面前讲话一样令人羞愧。
But now, after years of doing keynote speeches to giant groups, I'm sort of like, no, now it's super chill.
但现在，在对大型团体进行了多年的主题演讲之后，我有点想，不，现在太冷了。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: But you know, that's all learned.
Alex Honnold：但是你知道，这都是学到的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Forgive me for saying you're wired different.
请原谅我说你与众不同。
I think that when you did "Free Solo," there were a number of news programs that took advantage of the fact that they put you in a brain scanner, you know, this is my field, the neuroscience, you know, his amygdala might not be activated the same way as other people's.\'a0
我认为当你做“Free Solo”时，有很多新闻节目利用了这样一个事实，他们把你放在脑部扫描仪中，你知道，这是我的领域，神经科学，你知道，他的杏仁核可能不会像其他人那样被激活。\'a0
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: But I would have thought, and I think it's the case now you confirmed, that it's really domain-specific.
Andrew Huberman：但我本以为，而且我认为现在您已经证实了这种情况，它确实是特定于领域的。
Like, you've done so much climbing, you have so many reps there, that you're familiar with the contingencies.
就像，你已经完成了如此多的攀登，你在那里进行了如此多的代表，你已经熟悉了突发事件。
And so, it's not that you can't experience fear, it's that you're not placing yourself into truly fearful circumstances, climbing.
所以，并不是说你不能体验恐惧，而是你没有将自己置于真正可怕的环境中去攀登。
But the fact that public speaking was an issue means that your threat sensors and the amygdala and related circuits work perfectly fine.
但公开演讲是一个问题的事实意味着你的威胁传感器、杏仁核和相关电路工作得很好。
Alex Honnold: With that particular scanning in the fMRI, they show you a bunch of black-and-white pictures, and it's like, whether or not that triggers the fear response.
亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）：通过功能磁共振成像的特殊扫描，他们向你展示一堆黑白图片，无论这是否会引发恐惧反应。
And I was like, "Well, obviously, looking at pictures isn't going to trigger my fear response." But I'm like, "Had they thrown a snake into the fMRI with me, that would have triggered my fear response."\'a0
我当时想，“嗯，显然，看照片不会引发我的恐惧反应。”但我想，“如果他们把一条蛇和我一起扔进功能磁共振成像，那会引发我的恐惧反应。”\'a0
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: You know, if there were, like, giant spiders, crawling over me, that probably would too.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：你知道，如果有像巨型蜘蛛一样的东西在我身上爬过，那也可能会发生。
And so, I was like, "No, obviously, I feel fear.
所以，我想，“不，显然，我感到恐惧。
I'm just not afraid of black-and-white photos, you know?"
我只是不怕黑白照片，你知道吗？”
Andrew Huberman: Right.
安德鲁·休伯曼：对。
Alex Honnold: I was like...
亚历克斯·霍诺德：我当时想……
Andrew Huberman: That's what they used?
Andrew Huberman：这就是他们用的？
Andrew Huberman: Oh, like, angry faces and that kind of...
安德鲁·胡伯曼：哦，比如，愤怒的面孔和那种......
The faces?
面孔？
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
It was...
这是...
Alex Honnold: It wasn't even faces.
Alex Honnold：甚至不是面孔。
It was random stuff, like, I don't know, a gun and then a light socket.\'a0
这是随机的东西，比如，我不知道，一把枪，然后是一个灯插座。\'a0
Andrew Huberman: Okay, yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的，是的。
Alex Honnold: You know, some things that are neutral, some things that are whatever.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：你知道，有些东西是中性的，有些东西是任何东西。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
I should have designed the experiment.
我应该设计这个实验。
My lab used to work on fear.
我的实验室曾经致力于研究恐惧。
Alex Honnold: Well, I think it was a standardized thing, I think.
Alex Honnold：嗯，我认为这是一个标准化的事情。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
No, it's a...
不，这是一个...
Alex Honnold: I think it was some battery, then gave us the...
亚历克斯·霍诺德：我认为这是一些电池，然后给了我们......
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
I'm not trying to be disparaging of the research.
我并不是想贬低这项研究。
My lab used to work on fear.
我的实验室曾经致力于研究恐惧。
We used VR.\'a0
我们使用了 VR。\'a0
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: That's how I met Michael Muller, our friend in common.\'a0
安德鲁·休伯曼：我就是这样认识迈克尔·穆勒的，他是我们的共同朋友。\'a0
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: He took me down to Guadalupe.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：他带我去了瓜达卢佩。
We did two times...
我们做了两次...
So, we went down there in 2016 and 2017, doing cage exit diving with great whites, filming to get the VR.
所以，我们在 2016 年和 2017 年去了那里，与大白鲨一起进行笼出口潜水，并拍摄 VR。
And I'll tell you, in real life, it's a hell of a lot scarier than it is...
我会告诉你，在现实生活中，这比实际情况可怕得多......
Alex Honnold: Yeah, totally, than in VR.
Alex Honnold：是的，完全如此，比 VR 更是如此。
Andrew Huberman: But along the lines of dying when you're doing the other thing, not the main thing, the cage exit part ended up being a lot safer.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但是，当你在做另一件事而不是主要事情时，沿着死亡的路线，笼子出口部分最终会安全得多。
I had an air failure while in the cage.
我在笼子里时发生了空气故障。
I was on that hookah line, and I was alone in the cage when it happened.
事情发生时，我就在那条水烟线上，而我独自一人在笼子里。
And I'll tell you, that was a lot more terrifying than being out of the cage with the sharks, because when you're out of the cage, you're on scuba, and you have some degree of control over...
我会告诉你，这比与鲨鱼一起离开笼子要可怕得多，因为当你离开笼子时，你就在潜水，并且你可以在一定程度上控制......
You can shoot for the surface.\'a0
你可以射击表面。\'a0
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: When you're in the cage, and you run out of air, and you're alone, you're just terrified, and you're hosed.\'a0
安德鲁·休伯曼：当你在笼子里，空气耗尽，孤身一人时，你会感到害怕，然后被浇水。\'a0
Alex Honnold: Yeah, you're just caged underwater.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，你只是被关在水下。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: No pun intended.
安德鲁·休伯曼：没有双关语的意思。
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: You're not hosed enough.
Andrew Huberman：你的冲洗还不够。
Alex Honnold: You're unhosed, yeah, yeah.
Alex Honnold：你没穿软管，是的，是的。
Andrew Huberman: So, you know, it speaks to this thing that, when there's this big, scary thing and you're really locked in, you often miss the more trivial-seeming, but real danger that's close up.
安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：所以，你知道，这说明了这一点，当发生这种巨大而可怕的事情并且你真的被困在其中时，你常常会错过那些看似微不足道但真正接近的危险。
Alex Honnold: Hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯。
Alex Honnold: But this is, I think, one of the real values of climbing is I think that as a climber, you spend all your time thinking about risk and managing risk and mitigating risk and all those kinds of things.
亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）：但我认为，攀岩的真正价值之一是，我认为作为一名攀岩者，你会花所有的时间思考风险、管理风险、减轻风险以及诸如此类的事情。
And so, I think that...
所以，我认为...
I don't want to toot my own horn too much, but I do feel good at evaluating risks like that, you know.
我不想过多地自吹自擂，但我确实很擅长评估这样的风险，你知道。
Like, what is the actual dangerous thing?
比如，真正危险的事情是什么？
What's sketchy about this situation?
这种情况有什么粗略的？
And it just often isn't the thing that people are looking at, you know?\'a0
而且它通常不是人们关注的东西，你知道吗？\'a0
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: And that's what I was talking about earlier with people watching videos of free soloing or whatever else.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：这就是我之前与观看自由独奏或其他视频的人们谈论的内容。
They're like, "That's sketchy." And I'm like, "Well, you know, might be in some ways, but probably not for all the reasons that you're thinking." You know what I mean?
他们会说，“这太粗略了。”我想，“嗯，你知道，可能在某些方面是这样，但可能不是出于你所想的所有原因。”你知道我的意思？
Like, the obvious visual thing is probably not the big challenge.
就像，明显的视觉事物可能不是很大的挑战。
Andrew Huberman: And it sounds a little clich\'e9, but you're doing what you love, you know.
Andrew Huberman：这听起来有点陈词滥调，但你知道，你正在做你喜欢的事情。
It's interesting.
这很有趣。
I think one of the biggest risks that I think about now, as I get older, is the non-daily lethal risk of grinding it out in a job you don't like, and then, one day, you wake up and you're like, "Wow, there's no time machine.
我认为，随着年龄的增长，我现在想到的最大风险之一是，在一份你不喜欢的工作中苦苦挣扎的非日常致命风险，然后，有一天，你醒来，你会想，“哇，没有时间机器。
Like, I can't go back and get that vitality and that time."
就像，我无法回去获得那种活力和时间。”
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Alex Honnold: Like, what should I have been doing?
亚历克斯·霍诺德：比如，我应该做什么？
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
And that's where I think this idea of doing what you love really counts, whether or not you have to live in a van and do nothing else, or whether or not you can also go to school, but doing something that you love very, very much.
这就是我认为做你喜欢的事情的想法真正重要的地方，无论你是否必须住在货车里而不做其他事情，或者你是否也可以去学校，但做你非常非常喜欢的事情。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Either way, you're going to die.
不管怎样，你都会死。
Andrew Huberman: Either way you're going to die.
Andrew Huberman：无论哪种方式你都会死。
Alex Honnold: And you may as well die having done a lot of things you're really excited about, than die regretting all the things you didn't do.
亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）：你还不如在做了很多你真正兴奋的事情后死去，而不是为你没有做的所有事情而后悔。
Andrew Huberman: Totally.
安德鲁·休伯曼：完全可以。
Alex Honnold: I mean, I think that that actually, that exact mindset really helped inform my whole climbing journey in a way, is like, my father died when I was 19.
Alex Honnold：我的意思是，我认为实际上，这种确切的心态确实在某种程度上帮助我的整个攀岩之旅，就像我父亲在我 19 岁时去世一样。
And he died of a heart attack unexpectedly, just a freak thing, running through an airport, at age 55.
他在机场跑步时意外死于心脏病，享年 55 岁。
And you know, and I think for a teenager, that makes an impression, where you're sort of like, "Oh, this could end at any moment." And actually, both my grandfathers had just died at roughly the same time.
你知道，我认为对于一个青少年来说，这会给人一种印象，你会有点像，“哦，这随时可能结束。”事实上，我的两个祖父几乎在同一时间去世。
So, I think for an impressionable teen, you're sort of like, "Oh, everybody dies." Like, do you get to do all the things that you want to do before you go?\'a0
所以，我认为对于一个易受影响的青少年来说，你会有点像，“哦，每个人都会死。”比如，你走之前可以做所有你想做的事情吗？\'a0
Alex Honnold: And I think my father...
亚历克斯·霍诺德：我认为我的父亲......
My father was a community college professor, taught language, and he ostensibly lived a risk-free life, relatively sedentary.
我的父亲是一名社区大学教授，教授语言，他表面上过着无风险的生活，相对久坐。
I mean, he traveled widely.
我的意思是，他去过很多地方。
Like, he was great.
就像，他很棒。
But by any risk perception thing, you'd be like, "Oh, he's a professor.
但从任何风险认知的角度来看，你都会说，“哦，他是一位教授。
Like, he's fine." And yet he still died young and probably would've preferred to do a lot of other things before he went.
比如说，他很好。”然而他仍然英年早逝，并且可能更愿意在去世之前做很多其他事情。
I'm sort of like, you know, it's just a reminder that you got to do all those things.
我有点像，你知道，这只是提醒你必须做所有这些事情。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I want to talk to you about your philosophy on death and time, and kind of life arc.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，我想和你谈谈你对死亡和时间以及生命弧线的哲学。
And you've already started.
而你已经开始了。
So, thank you for that.
所以，谢谢你。
Because I would say most of my friends who started families young are people who...
因为我想说，我的大多数年轻时就开始组建家庭的朋友都是这样的人……
These are male friends whose dads died young.
这些是父亲早年去世的男性朋友。
And so, they had this very keen sense of the finite duration of life.
因此，他们对生命的有限性有着非常敏锐的认识。
And, you know, Steve Jobs talked about this.
而且，你知道，史蒂夫·乔布斯谈到了这一点。
So, you're very...
那么，你很...
And he died young.
而且他英年早逝。
He seemed to have some sense of how long he was going to live, and really wanted to pack things in.
他似乎知道自己还能活多久，也很想收拾东西。
And I don't know why that was.
我不知道为什么会这样。
He was adopted, so I don't know if he even knew how long his parents lived, et cetera.
他是被收养的，所以我不知道他是否知道他父母活了多久等等。
But barring accident or injury, we don't really know when we're going to die.
但除非发生事故或受伤，我们真的不知道什么时候会死。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: But sometimes I think, we get the sense based on relatives.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但有时我认为，我们是根据亲戚来理解的。
And I can remember a time in my life when I...
我还记得我生命中的某个时刻，当时我...
Of course, I knew I was going to die, but I lived in a way that I just felt like I had all the time in the world, despite pursuing things.\'a0
当然，我知道我会死，但我的生活方式让我感觉自己拥有世界上所有的时间，尽管我在追求事物。\'a0
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And I think with each passing year, I'm like, "Oh, wow, like, the wall's coming."
安德鲁·休伯曼：我想，随着时间的推移，我会想，“哦，哇，就像，墙来了。”
Alex Honnold: You're like, "It's winding down.".
亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）：你会说，“一切都结束了。”
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, like, "We gotta get the show on the road."
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，就像，“我们必须让演出上路。”
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Totally, totally.
完全，完全。
Andrew Huberman: And I've done things I wanted to do, but it's interesting that, you know, it does seem that having a parent die has a profound impact on where you set that horizon.\'a0
Andrew Huberman：我已经做了我想做的事情，但有趣的是，你知道，父母去世似乎确实会对你设定的地平线产生深远的影响。\'a0
Alex Honnold: Yeah, galvanizing effect for sure.
Alex Honnold：是的，肯定有激励作用。
Andrew Huberman: You realize, like, today is part of an arc that has an endpoint.\'a0
Andrew Huberman：你意识到，今天是有终点的弧线的一部分。\'a0
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And we know that, but we often don't live into that realization.
Andrew Huberman：我们知道这一点，但我们常常没有意识到这一点。
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
No, I totally agree with that.
不，我完全同意这一点。
I mean, you say we know that, but I actually think that we don't talk about that enough.
我的意思是，你说我们知道这一点，但实际上我认为我们对此讨论得还不够。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
I think most people live with a little too much open ended.
我认为大多数人的生活都有点过于开放。
Because nobody wants to talk about death.
因为没有人愿意谈论死亡。
Nobody wants to talk about the consequences of like...
没有人愿意谈论类似的后果...
Because people think this is morbid, or it's just not...
因为人们认为这是病态的，或者根本不是……
Alex Honnold: But the thing is like, we're all going to freaking die.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：但事情就像是，我们都会死掉。
You know?
你知道？
It's like, are we going to be proud of what we did before we died?
就像，我们会为我们死前所做的事情感到自豪吗？
Like, I don't know.
就像，我不知道。
I mean, yeah.
我的意思是，是的。
We'll see.
我们拭目以待。
It's kind of clich\'e9 to be like, "Oh, better to die young and burn brightly," and all that kind of stuff.
类似这样的陈词滥调是“哦，最好是英年早逝并燃烧得明亮”之类的东西。
But to some extent, I think there's a middle ground where you're like, it's better to try hard and do things that you're proud of.
但在某种程度上，我认为有一个中间立场，你会喜欢，最好努力尝试，做你引以为傲的事情。
And either way, you're going to die.
不管怎样，你都会死。
Andrew Huberman: I agree.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我同意。
I mean, I think there is something interesting to this 27 effect.
我的意思是，我认为这个 27 效应有一些有趣的地方。
So many rock and roll musicians die at 27.
很多摇滚音乐家在 27 岁时就去世了。
Alex Honnold: Hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯。
It's their quarter-life crisis.
这是他们的四分之一人生危机。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Quarter-life crisis.
青年危机。
I haven't heard of the quarter-life crisis.
我没听说过四分之一人生危机。
Alex Honnold: You never heard of quarter-life...
亚历克斯·霍诺德：你从来没有听说过四分之一人生......
Like, all my friends have gone through a quarter-life crisis.
就像，我所有的朋友都经历过四分之一人生危机。
Andrew Huberman: No.
安德鲁·休伯曼：不。
Andrew Huberman: Oh, really?
安德鲁·休伯曼：哦，真的吗？
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Kind of.
有点儿。
Andrew Huberman: And when does that happen?
Andrew Huberman：那什么时候发生？
Alex Honnold: Well, like 25 or 27, whatever.
Alex Honnold：嗯，比如 25 或 27，无论如何。
Andrew Huberman: Interesting.
安德鲁·休伯曼：有趣。
No, I was just so focused on becoming a neuroscientist that I didn't know what else I would do besides that at 25.
不，我只是太专注于成为一名神经科学家，以至于 25 岁时我不知道除了这个我还能做什么。
I think I was just so locked in.
我想我只是被锁在里面了。
But I've always been a little bit obsessive.
但我总是有点执着。
Have you always been a little bit like, whatever you're into, you're into?
你是否总是有点喜欢，无论你喜欢什么，你都喜欢？
I guess it's been climbing.
估计是爬升了
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
I was just lucky to get into climbing when I was 10.
我很幸运在10岁的时候就开始攀岩。
So, this is something that I've just been into forever.
所以，这是我一直热衷的事情。
Andrew Huberman: So, did you play LEGOs as a kid or anything?
Andrew Huberman：那么，你小时候玩过乐高积木吗？
Alex Honnold: Yeah, and I was psycho about my LEGOs.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，我对我的乐高积木很着迷。
Andrew Huberman: You were psycho about LEGOs.
Andrew Huberman：你对乐高积木很着迷。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，是的。
Psycho.
精神病。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Alex Honnold: Like, I didn't have a bed in my room because I had LEGOs covered across the whole floor, basically.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：就像，我的房间里没有床，因为基本上整个地板上都铺满了乐高积木。
I slept in a corner, and I just had LEGOs all over.
我睡在一个角落里，身上只有乐高积木。
Andrew Huberman: Awesome.
安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。
Alex Honnold: It was kind of psycho.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：这有点精神病。
Andrew Huberman: Do you see some of this in your kids?
安德鲁·休伯曼：你在你的孩子身上看到了一些这样的现象吗？
Alex Honnold: Not quite that yet, but they're pretty young, so it's hard to tell.
Alex Honnold：还不完全是这样，但他们还很年轻，所以很难说。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: But yeah, we'll see.\'a0
Alex Honnold：但是，我们拭目以待。\'a0
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.\'a0
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。\'a0
Alex Honnold: We'll see.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：我们拭目以待。
I kind of think it's all about having personality.
我觉得这一切都与个性有关。
Like, do a thing, do it well.
就像做一件事，把它做好。
Like, get excited about things.
比如，对事情感到兴奋。
I mean, there are just so many people on earth, and they all do different things.
我的意思是，地球上有那么多人，他们都做着不同的事情。
Like, you might as well be the person to do that one particular thing and just really do it.
就像，你也可能是那个做某件事的人，并且真正去做。
Andrew Huberman: No, I agree.
安德鲁·休伯曼：不，我同意。
That's the juice.
这就是果汁。
I mean, I think for some of us, I just know from my own life experience, I thought I was certainly going to just get into skateboarding.
我的意思是，我认为对于我们中的一些人来说，我从自己的生活经历中知道，我认为我肯定会进入滑板领域。
Many of my friends became professional skateboarders, got really good at it, or worked in the industry.
我的许多朋友都成为了职业滑板运动员，或者非常擅长滑板，或者在这个行业工作。
And early on, I was getting hurt, and I realized, "I'm not very good at this." And then when I finally plugged into academics and learning, I was like, "This is the thing." And I loved it.
早些时候，我受伤了，我意识到，“我不太擅长这个。”然后，当我最终投入学术和学习时，我想，“就是这样。”我喜欢它。
Alex Honnold: Hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And then eventually, I pivoted to this thing, which I didn't anticipate.
Andrew Huberman：最终，我转向了这件事，这是我没有预料到的。
But I do think that going all in on something, it provides a really wonderful feedback loop that one can...
但我确实认为，全力以赴做某事，它提供了一个非常美妙的反馈循环，人们可以......
Like, you feel, it makes you feel alive to progress.
就像，你感觉，它让你感到充满活力，不断进步。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, you're doing a thing.
Alex Honnold：是的，你正在做一件事。
You're psyched.
你很兴奋。
Yeah, yeah.\'a0
是啊是啊。\'a0
Andrew Huberman: Especially when it's hard.
安德鲁·休伯曼：尤其是在困难的时候。
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Especially when it's hard.
安德鲁·休伯曼：尤其是在困难的时候。
Alex Honnold: I've literally spent my whole life basically, all in on climbing, and I'm still...
亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）：我基本上把我的一生都花在了攀登上，而且我仍然......
I just love going rock climbing, you know?
我只是喜欢攀岩，你知道吗？
It's like, I mean, I think that's really the goal of parenting, is to help your kid find something that they're that psyched about, like something that they can commit to, and something that will drive them, something they're passionate about.
我的意思是，我认为这确实是养育孩子的目标，就是帮助你的孩子找到他们感兴趣的事情，比如他们可以承诺的事情，以及能够驱动他们的事情，他们充满热情的事情。
And so, I mean, we'll see with our kids, but it's like, the idea is just to let them experience enough things that they can find whatever they...
所以，我的意思是，我们会和我们的孩子一起看看，但这个想法只是让他们体验足够的东西，以便他们可以找到任何他们......
whatever gets them out of bed every day.
每天让他们起床的任何事情。
Andrew Huberman: They certainly are in the right environment to flourish with it.
Andrew Huberman：他们确实处于合适的环境中，可以蓬勃发展。
You mentioned that climbing is in the Olympics.
你提到攀岩是奥运会项目。
I could see, and I've observed in other sports where the parents are kind of more obsessive than the kid, and then the kid burns out on it.\'a0
我可以看到，而且我在其他运动中观察到，父母比孩子更着迷，然后孩子就会精疲力竭。\'a0
Andrew Huberman: I read Andre Agassi's book, "Open," which is basically a story of his dad pushing him to play a game he did not want to play.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我读过安德烈·阿加西的书《Open》，这基本上是一个他父亲强迫他玩他不想玩的游戏的故事。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Yeah, that's like the...
是的，这就像...
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
That may be the best sports memoir ever.\'a0
这可能是有史以来最好的体育回忆录。\'a0
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: That's a great book.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：那是一本很棒的书。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Great book.
很棒的书。
Yeah, his dad was a boxer and basically trained him in tennis like a boxer.
是的，他的父亲是一名拳击手，基本上像拳击手一样训练他打网球。
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
The psycho, yeah.
精神病人，是的。
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, so sort of like the light-handed approach of like...
Andrew Huberman：是的，有点像轻松的方法......
I think kids know.
我想孩子们都知道。
I mean, you kind of let them forage, right?
我的意思是，你让它们觅食，对吗？
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Alex Honnold: No, we're taking the light-handed approach for sure.
Alex Honnold：不，我们肯定会采取轻松的方法。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: I mean, our kids will obviously know how to climb, because that's what we do all the time and...\'a0
亚历克斯·霍诺德：我的意思是，我们的孩子显然会知道如何攀爬，因为这就是我们一直在做的事情......\'a0
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: But so far, we just go hiking.
Alex Honnold：但到目前为止，我们只是去徒步旅行。
Like, we haven't forced them to climb.
就像，我们没有强迫他们攀爬。
We have a little bit of a home gym at home, like a little climbing garage.
我们家里有一个小型的家庭健身房，就像一个小型攀岩车库。
And so the girls can play on the wall whenever they want to.
这样女孩们就可以随时在墙上玩耍。
But there's certainly never any pressure to do anything.
但绝对不会有任何做任何事情的压力。
Andrew Huberman: I read, and please correct me if this is inaccurate, but that it was during college that you had some family members pass away, and when you really leaned into just climbing more.
Andrew Huberman：我读过，如果这不准确，请纠正我，但正是在大学期间，你的一些家庭成员去世了，当你真正倾向于更多地攀岩时。
I think it's somewhere on the internet that you were climbing out in Indian Rock, which is interesting to me because I went to graduate school in Berkeley and lived in Berkeley for a long time.
我认为你在互联网上的某个地方攀登了印第安岩石，这对我来说很有趣，因为我在伯克利读研究生并在伯克利生活了很长一段时间。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: You went to Cal?
亚历克斯·霍诺德：你去了加州大学？
Andrew Huberman: I went to Cal for my master's.
Andrew Huberman：我去加州攻读硕士学位。
Alex Honnold: Oh, yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：哦，是的。
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman: And then, I lived in Berkeley even when I was a postdoc at Stanford.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：然后，即使我在斯坦福大学做博士后，我也住在伯克利。
I love Berkeley.
我爱伯克利。
Alex Honnold: I was like, "You went from Cal to Stanford?" Are you even allowed to do that?
亚历克斯·霍诺德：我当时想，“你从加州大学去了斯坦福大学？”你甚至被允许这样做吗？
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Right.
正确的。
Yeah, the enemy, the enemy.
是的，敌人，敌人。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, it's like did they take you?
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，就像他们带走了你一样？
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Born at Stanford, trained at Stanford, and still spent a lot of time in Berkeley.
出生于斯坦福大学，在斯坦福大学接受训练，并且仍在伯克利度过了很多时间。
Alex Honnold: Wow.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：哇。
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman: I liked the culture in Berkeley then, and I liked the food.
Andrew Huberman：当时我喜欢伯克利的文化，也喜欢这里的食物。
So, I used to take pizzas from The Cheeseboard up to Indian Rock.
所以，我经常从 The Cheeseboard 到 Indian Rock 买披萨。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: Hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And so while you were climbing Indian Rock, I was eating and picnicking on Indian Rock.\'a0
Andrew Huberman：所以当你攀登印第安岩时，我正在印第安岩上吃饭和野餐。\'a0
Alex Honnold: \'a0Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：'a0是的。
Andrew Huberman: It's amazing.
安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。
So would you just pull little solo journeys out there?
那么你会去那里进行一些单独的旅行吗？
This is, by the way, folks, a big steep rock, but on one face it's gradual.
顺便说一句，伙计们，这是一块陡峭的大岩石，但它的一面是平缓的。
It literally has like rock couches where couples go on dates, and you eat some pizza and hang out, and get an amazing view.
它实际上有像岩石沙发一样的情侣去约会，你吃一些披萨并闲逛，并欣赏令人惊叹的景色。
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Alex Honnold: And beautiful view overlooking the city.
Alex Honnold：俯瞰城市的美丽景色。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, so you were climbing up the back of it, which is anything but...
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，所以你爬到了它的后面，这绝对不是......
Alex Honnold: Well, actually, I was mostly traversing the bottom of it.
Alex Honnold：嗯，实际上，我大部分时间都在探索它的底部。
There's tons of like...
有很多类似的...
Basically, you can contour the whole base of the rock.
基本上，您可以勾勒出整个岩石底部的轮廓。
And so, you can climb for a couple of hundred feet basically, without touching the ground.
因此，您基本上可以在不接触地面的情况下攀爬数百英尺。
So, you just go back and forth doing laps and, yeah.
所以，你只需来回跑几圈，是的。
Andrew Huberman: Really cool.
安德鲁·休伯曼：真的很酷。
Alex Honnold: I mean, from where I was living at Berkeley, there's only, I don't know, like a 30-minute walk to Indian Rock or something.
Alex Honnold：我的意思是，从我住在伯克利的地方，我不知道，步行 30 分钟就能到达印第安岩之类的地方。
So, I basically wasn't going to class.\'a0
所以，我基本上不去上课。\'a0
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: I was just strolling to Indian Rock and traversing the wall back and forth.
Alex Honnold：我只是漫步到印第安岩并来回穿越墙壁。
And then, that's why I dropped out after one year at Berkeley.\'a0
然后，这就是我在伯克利一年后退学的原因。\'a0
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: It's just kind of like I don't know why I'm at university if I'm not actually...
Alex Honnold：这有点像我不知道为什么我要上大学，如果我实际上不是......
Actually, it's more complicated than that, because that year, I got into the Youth Worlds, just like an international thing.
其实比这更复杂，因为那一年，我进入了青年世界，就像国际比赛一样。
And so, I was going to take the semester off to go to Worlds and travel and climb a little bit.
所以，我打算休个学期去参加世界赛，去旅行和攀岩。
And so, now I've just taken whatever, like 35 semesters off or something.
所以，现在我已经休了 35 个学期之类的假期。
Andrew Huberman: You're on leave of absence still?
Andrew Huberman：你还在休假吗？
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
No, I think after some point they were like, "You're done."
不，我想过了一段时间他们就会说，“你完成了。”
Andrew Huberman: They closed the hatch.
安德鲁·休伯曼：他们关闭了舱门。
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Yeah, I think they closed that.\'a0
是的，我认为他们关闭了。\'a0
Andrew Huberman: Well, it worked out.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯，成功了。
It certainly worked out.
确实成功了。
Yeah, the thing that we find ourselves doing when we should be doing something else, in the positive sense of it, like, I mean, that often is the thing, like it's that you obsess over.
是的，当我们应该做其他事情时，我们发现自己正在做的事情，从积极的意义上来说，就像，我的意思是，通常就是这样的事情，就像你痴迷的那样。
Right.
正确的。
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
I mean, it's just hard to know with that stuff, though, because obviously, for most people, they probably should get an education and get a job of some kind.
我的意思是，尽管如此，很难了解这些东西，因为显然，对于大多数人来说，他们可能应该接受教育并找到某种工作。
Like, even if you're a really passionate climber, I mean, most people probably aren't going to make a living as a professional climber because it's just too small an industry, and you know, it depends on your level and everything.
就像，即使你是一个非常热情的登山者，我的意思是，大多数人可能不会以专业登山者的身份谋生，因为这是一个太小的行业，而且你知道，这取决于你的水平和一切。
I mean, I think I got kind of lucky.\'a0
我的意思是，我想我有点幸运。\'a0
Alex Honnold: I mean, in a lot of ways, I got lucky, also just because I like soloing, and it's like such a niche and not that many people do it, and the level just wasn't that high.
Alex Honnold：我的意思是，在很多方面，我很幸运，也只是因为我喜欢独奏，而且它就像一个利基市场，没有多少人这样做，而且水平也没有那么高。
And so, I sometimes joke, it's easy to be the best if you're the only one doing it.
因此，我有时会开玩笑说，如果你是唯一一个这样做的人，那么很容易成为最好的。
You know, it's like, it's easy to compete as the only person in the field, and you're kind of like, "Well, that makes it chill." And so, you know, I think I got lucky in a lot of ways like that.
你知道，就像，作为该领域唯一的人来竞争是很容易的，而你有点像，“嗯，这让人很冷。”所以，你知道，我认为我在很多方面都很幸运。
And so, yeah, most people probably should finish university and climb, as they can.\'a0
所以，是的，大多数人可能应该完成大学学业并攀登，因为他们可以。\'a0
Alex Honnold: That said, I mean, if you love doing a thing, it makes sense to maybe build your life around how you can do that thing as much as possible, just because it keeps you energized and fired up and makes the rest of your life better.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：也就是说，我的意思是，如果你喜欢做一件事，那么围绕如何尽可能地做这件事来建立你的生活是有意义的，因为它能让你保持活力和激情，让你的余生变得更好。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I think it was Ryan Holiday that said that, "If you don't know what to do with your life and you're still trying to figure it out, definitely stay in college."
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我认为瑞安·霍勒迪说过这样一句话：“如果你不知道自己的人生该做什么，并且仍在努力弄清楚，那么一定要留在大学。”
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Because you know, there are all these tales of like Mark Zuckerberg leaving Harvard, and Steve Jobs dropping out of Reed College, and Alex Honnold leaving Berkeley, and eventually becoming the person that you are now.
安德鲁·休伯曼：因为你知道，有很多这样的故事，比如马克·扎克伯格离开哈佛，史蒂夫·乔布斯从里德学院退学，亚历克斯·霍诺德离开伯克利，并最终成为你现在的样子。
But you had a direction.
但你有一个方向。
There was another thing to lean into.
还有另一件事需要关注。
It wasn't just, "Oh, I don't like this.
这不仅仅是，“哦，我不喜欢这个。
I don't want to be here."
我不想呆在这里。”
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
I mean, if you have nothing, then you drop out, and you just go play video games in your basement or something, like that's obviously not better than going to school.
我的意思是，如果你什么都没有，那么你就会辍学，然后去地下室玩电子游戏之类的，这显然不比上学好。
Like, you're better off going to school and broadening your horizons and doing whatever.\'a0
就像，你最好去上学，拓宽你的视野，做任何事情。\'a0
Alex Honnold: But yeah, I mean, I thought I was just taking some time off, and I thought that eventually I'd become a mountain guide or something, or like teach at summer camps, or I don't know, because especially at the time, the climbing industry was so much smaller, there wasn't any money.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：但是，是的，我的意思是，我以为我只是休息一段时间，我以为最终我会成为一名登山向导或其他什么，或者在夏令营教书，或者我不知道，因为特别是在当时，攀岩行业规模小得多，没有任何钱。
Like, I didn't think you could make a living as a professional climber.
就像，我不认为你可以作为职业登山者谋生。
And so, I thought it was just kind of a fun thing I was doing in the van for a while before I'd find some kind of job or something.
所以，我认为在找到某种工作或其他东西之前，我在货车里做了一段时间是一件有趣的事情。
And then thankfully, the climbing industry has kind of scaled at the same rate that I did as a climber.
值得庆幸的是，攀岩行业的规模增长速度与我作为一名登山者的速度相同。
And so, it all worked out.
就这样，一切顺利了。
Andrew Huberman: Is it the case that you didn't have any monetary aspirations when you were doing it?
Andrew Huberman：您在做这件事时是否没有任何金钱愿望？
Like, it sounds like you didn't, but did you ever have the conversation with your mom, like, you know, "How are you going to make a living?" Or...
就像，听起来你没有，但是你有没有和你妈妈交谈过，比如，“你要如何谋生？”或者...
Alex Honnold: No. Well, so I mean, I mentioned that my dad died.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：不。嗯，所以我的意思是，我提到我父亲去世了。
So, my parents had just gotten divorced, and my dad had left enough for my sister and me to finish college.
所以，我的父母刚刚离婚，我父亲留下了足够的钱供我和妹妹完成大学学业。
And so, I took that money and put it in bonds, which I don't know what that is, but you know.
所以，我把这笔钱投入了债券，我不知道那是什么，但你知道。
So, I was making like a couple of hundred bucks a month in bonds.
所以，我每个月靠债券赚几百美元。
And then, I stole the family minivan.\'a0
然后，我偷了家里的小型货车。\'a0
Alex Honnold: Like I said, my two grandfathers had died before, so I basically...
亚历克斯·霍诺德：就像我说的，我的两个祖父以前去世了，所以我基本上......
My mom had inherited this little car that...
我妈妈继承了这辆小车...
So, she was driving my grandpa's car.
所以，她开的是我爷爷的车。
I took the family minivan.
我乘坐的是家庭小型货车。
I was making a couple of hundred bucks in bonds, and basically, that just kind of covered any of the pressure, like the financial pressure, whereas that gave me enough of a buffer that I was like, "Well, for several years at least, I could just kind of live in this minivan and see what happens."\'a0
我通过债券赚了几百美元，基本上，这只是覆盖了任何压力，比如财务压力，而这给了我足够的缓冲，我想，“好吧，至少几年，我可以住在这辆小型货车里，看看会发生什么。”\'a0
Alex Honnold: And then after a couple years, I was sponsored, I was getting free product.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：几年后，我得到了赞助，我得到了免费产品。
I was getting like a very, very small amount of money, but some amount of money, which is enough to sort of justify the whole thing, where you're like, "Oh, companies are paying me to do this thing.
我得到了一笔非常非常少的钱，但也有一定数量的钱，这足以证明整个事情是合理的，你会说，“哦，公司付钱给我做这件事。
I should see how well I can do it." And then, it all kind of took off from there.
我应该看看我能做得多好。”然后，一切都从那里开始。
But yeah, I mean, that's one of the ways in which I was very lucky as a climber, you know.
但是，是的，我的意思是，这是我作为一名登山者非常幸运的方式之一，你知道。
There was just enough financial cushion that I could try to do the thing as much as I wanted for a couple of years and see how it played out, and it just happened to work out well.
有足够的财务缓冲，我可以在几年内尝试尽可能多地做这件事，看看结果如何，而结果恰好很好。
Andrew Huberman: I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function.
Andrew Huberman：我想稍微休息一下，并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。
Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.
去年，在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我成为了 Function 成员。
Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health.
Function 提供 100 多项高级实验室测试，为您提供整个身体健康状况的关键快照。
This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more.\'a0
此快照为您提供有关心脏健康、激素健康、免疫功能、营养水平等方面的见解。\'a0
Andrew Huberman: They've also recently added tests for toxins such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics, and tests for PFASs, or forever chemicals.
Andrew Huberman：他们最近还增加了毒素测试，例如有害塑料中的 BPA 暴露，以及 PFAS 或永久性化学物质的测试。
Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are experts in the relevant areas.
Function 不仅提供对您的身心健康至关重要的 100 多种生物标志物的测试，还分析这些结果并提供相关领域专家顶级医生的见解。
For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood.
例如，在我第一次使用 Function 进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量升高。
Function not only helped me detect that, but also offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification.
功能不仅帮助我发现了这一点，还为我提供了如何最好地降低汞含量的见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼摄入量，我一直在吃大量金枪鱼，同时还努力多吃绿叶蔬菜并补充 NAC、N-乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒。
And I should say, by taking a second Function test, that approach worked.\'a0
我应该说，通过进行第二次功能测试，这种方法有效。\'a0
Andrew Huberman: Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important.
Andrew Huberman：全面的血液检测至关重要。
There are so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test.
有很多与您的心理和身体健康相关的事情只能通过血液检查来检测。
The problem is, blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated.
问题是，血液检测一直非常昂贵且复杂。
In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost.
相比之下，Function 的简单性和成本水平给我留下了深刻的印象。
It is very affordable.
这是非常实惠的。
As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.\'a0
因此，我决定加入他们的科学顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。\'a0
Andrew Huberman: If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman.
Andrew Huberman：如果您想尝试 Function，可以访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。
Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman podcast listeners.
Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等待名单，但他们正在为 Huberman 播客听众提供早期访问服务。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.
同样，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。
Andrew Huberman: It's going to sound like an odd question, but I'm very curious about this.
Andrew Huberman：这听起来像是一个奇怪的问题，但我对此很好奇。
You've been in beautiful places, like just-- And you get a very different view of those places than most people.
你去过美丽的地方，比如——你对这些地方的看法与大多数人截然不同。
There's a really great YouTube Short of you hanging on by one arm during a climb, which itself is impressive to the observer.
YouTube 上有一段非常精彩的短片，展示了你在攀爬过程中用一只手臂抓住的场景，这本身就给观察者留下了深刻的印象。
But then you take some moments, and you look around, and you're just like checking out the scene.
但然后你花了一些时间，环顾四周，你就像在查看现场一样。
Andrew Huberman: You're clearly not looking at the rock.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你显然没有在看岩石。
That I know even as a non-expert.
即使作为非专家我也知道这一点。
Alex Honnold: Hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯。
Alex Honnold: Hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯。
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And so I'm wondering this.
Andrew Huberman：所以我想知道这个。
I have reasons to ask.
我有理由问。
Do you ever snap photos with your mind, your mind's eye?
你是否曾经用你的心灵、你的心灵之眼来拍摄照片？
Like, do you have a clear recollection of like, "Oh, I'm going to snap a shot of this.
就像，你是否清楚地记得，“哦，我要拍一张照片。
Like, keep this one in the memory bank?"
比如，把这个存入记忆库？”
Alex Honnold: No, I can't remember.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：不，我不记得了。
Andrew Huberman: No?
安德鲁·休伯曼：没有？
Alex Honnold: I mean, to me it's more the living there day in and day out.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：我的意思是，对我来说，更多的是日复一日地生活在那里。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: Like, you know, with free soloing El Cap, let's say, I mean, I spent months on the wall, and it's like just every day, you're going up before sunrise a lot of the time, so you're watching the sunrise over Half Dome, and it's super beautiful.
亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）：就像，你知道，在自由独攀埃尔卡普峰时，我的意思是，我在墙上呆了几个月，就像每天，你很多时候都会在日出之前上升，所以你正在观看半圆顶上的日出，它非常美丽。
And then you're going down at sunset, and you're watching the moon, and it's just day in and day out.
然后你在日落时下山，看着月亮，就这样日复一日。
It's the most beautiful place on earth in all these amazing conditions.
在所有这些令人惊叹的条件下，它是地球上最美丽的地方。
Alex Honnold: You know, sometimes it starts snowing, sometimes it's raining.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：你知道，有时会下雪，有时会下雨。
It's like there are clouds swirling and mist or whatever, and you're just like, "Oh, it's amazing." But I don't really remember any specific like a snapshot of that.
就好像云朵在旋转，薄雾什么的，你就会说，“哦，太棒了。”但我真的不记得任何具体的事情，比如快照。
It's more just the overall.
这更只是整体。
You're like, "Oh, it's just this amazing place."
你会说，“哦，这真是个神奇的地方。”
Andrew Huberman: It's pretty awesome existence.
Andrew Huberman：这是非常棒的存在。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, like the freaking-- What is it?
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是啊，就像那该死的——那是什么？
With Yosemite Falls the-- Have you ever seen the moon rainbow thing?
优胜美地瀑布——你见过月亮彩虹吗？
Andrew Huberman: The firelight thing, where...
安德鲁·休伯曼：火光的事情，在那里......
Alex Honnold: No, the Firefall is a different thing.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：不，火瀑布是另一回事。
That's with the moon in-- That's a different time of year.
那是月亮在——那是一年中的不同时间。
In May or June, if you get a full moon.
五月或六月，如果有满月。
Oh, the moonbow.
哦，月虹。
That's what it is.
就是这样。
Andrew Huberman: The moonbow.
安德鲁·休伯曼：月弓。
Alex Honnold: It's like when Yosemite Falls will cast a moonbow.
Alex Honnold：就像优胜美地瀑布会施展月弓一样。
Like, you'll be able to see a rainbow from the moonlight in the waterfall when it's at peak water.
就像，当水位最高时，你可以在月光下看到瀑布中的彩虹。
It's totally insane.
这完全是疯了。
My wife and I went for a romantic walk to go look at the moonbow one season because you're just there and you're like, "That's pretty cool." You know, it's like it's a rainbow at night.
有一个季节，我和妻子去浪漫地散步，去看月虹，因为你就在那里，你会说，“那太酷了。”你知道，这就像夜晚的彩虹。
Andrew Huberman: Amazing.
安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。
Alex Honnold: It's really cool.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：这真的很酷。
Andrew Huberman: We're going to send a lot of people to Yosemite by virtue of Clouds Rest, and for the non-climbers or hikers.
Andrew Huberman：我们将利用 Clouds Rest 派遣很多人前往优胜美地，以及非登山者或徒步旅行者。
Alex Honnold: I still think it's crazy that you've climbed Clouds Rest more than once and never climbed Half Dome.
Alex Honnold：我仍然认为你不止一次攀登过 Clouds Rest 而从未攀登过 Half Dome，这太疯狂了。
Because Clouds Rest, like-
因为云歇息，就像——
Andrew Huberman: No, I've run Clouds Rest, rucked it, I've done it-- I've probably done Clouds Rest at least a dozen times.
Andrew Huberman：不，我已经运行过 Clouds Rest，搞砸了，我已经做到了——我可能已经运行过 Clouds Rest 至少十几次了。
Alex Honnold: That is crazy.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：这太疯狂了。
Andrew Huberman: And I love that hike.
Andrew Huberman：我喜欢那次徒步旅行。
Alex Honnold: Because you have to go past Half Dome, and Half Dome is the much more famous cousin that's closer and easier and kind of more spectacular.
亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）：因为你必须经过半圆顶，而半圆顶是更有名的表亲，更近、更容易、更壮观。
Andrew Huberman: Well, you have to drive past it.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯，你必须开车经过它。
So to be clear, I'm starting from sunrise.
需要明确的是，我是从日出开始的。
Alex Honnold: Oh, you've been doing it-- Oh, you're going from Tuolumne.
Alex Honnold：哦，你一直在这么做——哦，你要从图奥勒米出发。
Andrew Huberman: I'm starting from-- I'm going from Tuolumne.
Andrew Huberman：我将从图奥勒米出发。
Alex Honnold: Oh, I'm way less impressed.
Alex Honnold：哦，我不太印象深刻。
Andrew Huberman: Oh, okay, good, okay, good.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哦，好吧，好吧，好吧，好吧。
Alex Honnold: Oh, I thought you were coming from the valley floor.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：哦，我以为你来自谷底。
Andrew Huberman: Okay, all right, good.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：好的，好的，很好。
Because I was thinking to myself, I was like, Clouds Rest is 15 miles up and back.
因为我心里想，Clouds Rest 往返 15 英里。
It's not gnarly.
这并不粗糙。
Alex Honnold: No, but going from the valley floor is really hard.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：不，但是从谷底走下去真的很困难。
Andrew Huberman: Going from the valley floor, sorry.
Andrew Huberman：抱歉，我是从谷底过来的。
Alex Honnold: Okay.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：好的。
Andrew Huberman: I actually don't know many people who come up from the valley floor anymore.
Andrew Huberman：实际上，我已经不认识很多从谷底爬上来的人了。
Alex Honnold: I've only done it from the valley floor.
Alex Honnold：我只在谷底做过。
Andrew Huberman: People tend to start at sunrise and then go down Clouds Rest, kind of go down the spine a bit toward Half Dome, and then-- I know this because then recently-
安德鲁·休伯曼：人们倾向于从日出开始，然后沿着云歇地走下去，有点沿着脊椎向半圆顶走，然后——我知道这一点是因为最近——
Alex Honnold: Yeah, there are trails between them and it's not easy.
Alex Honnold：是的，他们之间有一些线索，这并不容易。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是啊，是啊，是啊，是啊。
Alex Honnold: That's so funny because you were talking about rucking a heavy bag up there, and I was like, "Man, that is a hard walk from the valley floor."
亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）：这太有趣了，因为你正在谈论将一个沉重的袋子推到那里，而我当时想，“伙计，从谷底步行过来真是太艰难了。”
Andrew Huberman: No, no, no, no.
安德鲁·休伯曼：不，不，不，不。
Alex Honnold: Because I'm thinking everything from the valley floor because I spent so much time in Yosemite.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：因为我在谷底思考一切，因为我在优胜美地度过了很多时间。
Like, in the valley.
比如，在山谷里。
Andrew Huberman: I'm starting at about 8,000 feet, finishing at about 10,000 feet.
Andrew Huberman：我从大约 8,000 英尺的高度开始，在大约 10,000 英尺的高度结束。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，是的，是的，好的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，是的。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
Alex Honnold: I'm so much less impressed.
Alex Honnold：我对此印象不太深刻。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, your daughters do this.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，你的女儿们就是这样做的。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, well, not quite yet, but...
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，好吧，还没有，但是......
Andrew Huberman: Your three and a half year old daughter.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你三岁半的女儿。
That's what I was saying.
我就是这么说的。
I was like, "Wow, he's right." Okay.
我当时想，“哇，他是对的。”好的。
I mean, it's tough.
我的意思是，这很难。
I mean, 2,000-
我的意思是，2,000-
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
No, no, it's still tough.
不不不，还是很难。
Andrew Huberman: I mean, it's like a workout.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我的意思是，这就像一次锻炼。
Alex Honnold: But going from the valley floor is really tough.
Alex Honnold：但是从谷底走下去真的很困难。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, that's brutal.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，这太残酷了。
Alex Honnold: Because I had one season in Yosemite where, for whatever reason, I wasn't really motivated for climbing goals, and I called it.
亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）：因为我在优胜美地度过了一个赛季，无论出于何种原因，我对攀登目标并没有真正的动力，我称之为。
I said that I retired, and I was on a trail running season.
我说我退役了，我正处于越野跑季节。
Though it's funny because I supported a bunch of my friends on things, and I was bouldering with all my friends.
虽然这很有趣，因为我在事情上支持了一群朋友，而且我和所有朋友一起抱石。
And so, I said that I have a climbing journal.
所以，我说我有一本登山日记。
Alex Honnold: And so, by the end of the season, if you look through the journal, it would look like a normal season where almost every day I was climbing with somebody, I was doing something.
Alex Honnold：所以，到了赛季结束时，如果你翻阅日记，就会发现这看起来就像一个正常的赛季，几乎每天我都在和某人一起攀登，我都在做一些事情。
And then by the end of the season, I actually did a couple of things I was kind of proud of.
然后到赛季结束时，我实际上做了一些让我感到自豪的事情。
But the mindset going into it was like, "I don't care.
但当时的心态是：“我不在乎。
I'm just here having fun.
我只是在这里玩得开心。
I'm trail running, and I'm supporting my friends on things, and that's it."
我在越野跑，在一些事情上支持我的朋友，仅此而已。”
Alex Honnold: And one of my big things that season was that I ran Clouds Rest from the valley floor.
Alex Honnold：那个赛季我最重要的事情之一就是我在谷底经营了 Clouds Rest。
But to me, that was like a triumph of trail running, because that's, like, pretty big.
但对我来说，这就像越野跑的胜利，因为那是相当大的。
It was like really-
真的就像——
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, how long is that?
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，那有多长？
Alex Honnold: I don't know.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：我不知道。
It's like 5,000 feet over or 6,000.
大约是 5,000 英尺或 6,000 英尺。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: It's like so far.
Alex Honnold：到目前为止是这样。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Let's see, because-
让我们看看，因为——
Alex Honnold: It was the hardest thing I'd ever run, for sure.
Alex Honnold：毫无疑问，这是我跑过的最困难的事情。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, you're probably going at least 3 to 4,000 feet from the valley floor up to the meadows and then another 2,000 up to Clouds Rest.
Andrew Huberman：是的，您可能要从谷底到草地至少 3 到 4,000 英尺，然后再到 Clouds Rest 2,000 英尺。
Alex Honnold: Well, no, the valley floor is four and the top of Clouds Rest is 10 something.
Alex Honnold：嗯，不，谷底有四层，云歇山顶有 10 层左右。
Andrew Huberman: It's about 10?
Andrew Huberman：大约 10 点吧？
Alex Honnold: So you're doing six, yeah.
Alex Honnold：所以你要做六次，是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Alex Honnold: So it's like-
亚历克斯·霍诺德：所以这就像-
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
Alex Honnold: For me, I was like, "Oh, that's a lot." But, anyway.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：对我来说，我当时想，“哦，太多了。”但是，无论如何。
Andrew Huberman: That's a trail runner.
安德鲁·休伯曼：那是一名越野跑运动员。
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And you're carrying water, or you grab water along the way.
Andrew Huberman：你要运水，或者沿途抓水。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, I just had a little bottle and fill in the rivers and...
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，我只是喝了一个小瓶子，然后倒入河流中......
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I mean, I don't consider myself a serious trail runner or mountaineer, certainly, but ever since I got my driver's license, it was like Yosemite.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，我的意思是，我当然不认为自己是一个认真的越野跑者或登山者，但自从我拿到驾照后，它就像优胜美地一样。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Yeah, it's the best.
是的，这是最好的。
Andrew Huberman: And Glacier is amazing.
Andrew Huberman：冰川太棒了。
You know, and I swear I'm not sent here by the National Parks Service, but I think Glacier's got some incredible scenery that everyone should make it to.
你知道，我发誓我不是国家公园管理局派到这里的，但我认为冰川有一些令人难以置信的风景，每个人都应该去看看。
Have you done a lot of climbing in Glacier?
您在冰川里攀爬过很多次吗？
Alex Honnold: No. Actually, I don't think there is that much climbing in Glacier National Park.
Alex Honnold：没有。实际上，我认为冰川国家公园没有那么多攀岩活动。
But I've actually biked past it on the way to Alaska for this random journey I did.
但实际上，我在去阿拉斯加的途中骑车经过了它，进行了这次随机旅行。
Andrew Huberman: Just biking, you know.
Andrew Huberman：你知道，只是骑自行车。
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
But, no, I haven't done much in there.
但是，不，我在那里没有做太多事情。
Andrew Huberman: What are the-- if any cultural differences or climbing in the United States versus in Europe?
Andrew Huberman：美国与欧洲的攀登文化或攀登方面是否存在差异？
It seems like guys get training in the Alps.
看起来就像人们在阿尔卑斯山接受训练一样。
I keep saying "guys," but I want to be fair, not for politically people.
我一直说“伙计们”，但我想公平，而不是针对政治人物。
Alex Honnold: People, anybody.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：人们，任何人。
Andrew Huberman: I'm not saying this for politically correct reasons, but there's a movie out very soon, actually an IMAX movie.
Andrew Huberman：我这么说并不是出于政治正确的原因，但很快就会有一部电影上映，实际上是一部 IMAX 电影。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I saw the trailer, too.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我也看了预告片。
It was a friend of yours.
那是你的一个朋友。
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: A woman who's-- What did she climb?
Andrew Huberman：一个女人——她攀爬了什么？
She's climbed the El Cap?
她爬上了El Cap？
Alex Honnold: Yeah, she's climbed El Cap in a day, like free in a day, this route called Golden Gate.
Alex Honnold：是的，她在一天之内就攀登了 El Cap，就像一天免费一样，这条路线称为金门。
Andrew Huberman: Uh-huh.
安德鲁·休伯曼： 嗯。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, actually, surprisingly, I'm in that film much more than I thought because I supported her on each of her attempts.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，实际上，令人惊讶的是，我在那部电影中的参与程度比我想象的要多得多，因为我支持她的每一次尝试。
We're talking about Emily Harrington, who's also a professional climber who, yeah, freed this route called Golden Gate in a day.
我们谈论的是艾米丽·哈林顿 (Emily Harrington)，她也是一名专业登山者，是的，她在一天之内就释放了这条名为金门 (Golden Gate) 的路线。
And the film's called "Girl Climber," and I think it comes out-
这部电影的名字叫《女孩攀登者》，我想它的结局是——
Andrew Huberman: The 24th.
安德鲁·休伯曼：24 号。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, isn't that soon?
Alex Honnold：是啊，不是很快吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Soon.
安德鲁·休伯曼：很快。
Andrew Huberman: It's one day in an IMAX, but then presumably it will be released.
Andrew Huberman：有一天 IMAX 上映，但之后可能就会上映。
Alex Honnold: And then some kind of theatrical release.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：然后是某种影院上映。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
Alex Honnold: But I think it'll be a relatively small theatrical release and then eventually stream and whatever.
亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）：但我认为这将是一个相对较小的影院版本，然后最终会流媒体播放等等。
But anyway, this film, "Girl Climber," Yeah, it's funny because she worked on this goal for a long time, and I'd kind of forgotten that I basically supported her on each of her attempts.
但无论如何，这部电影《女孩攀登者》是的，这很有趣，因为她为这个目标努力了很长时间，而我有点忘记了我基本上支持她的每一次尝试。
Alex Honnold: Because when you support somebody, I mean, this is kind of like crewing somebody's race or something.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：因为当你支持某人时，我的意思是，这有点像参加某人的比赛或其他什么。
You know, when you support somebody, it's basically a rest day for you.
你知道，当你支持某人时，这基本上就是你的休息日。
You're having a nice day.
你今天过得很愉快。
You're supporting a friend.
你正在支持一个朋友。
It's like no pressure.
就好像没有压力一样。
It's all really chill.
这一切真的很冷。
And so the days that I supported her were all like...
所以我支持她的日子就像...
Alex Honnold: You know, I mean, I remember them, but they were just one day throughout a big season where I'd be working on other climbing goals, like all the things that I'm working on.
亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）：你知道，我的意思是，我记得它们，但它们只是整个大赛季中的一天，我会在其中努力实现其他攀登目标，就像我正在努力的所有事情一样。
And it's just like a fun day supporting a friend.
这就像支持朋友的有趣的一天。
But then I went and watched the movie, and it's like, "Oh, every time she tries the wall, I'm there supporting her." And I was like, "Oh God, I kind of forgot about all these things a couple of years ago." And I don't know.
但后来我去看了电影，感觉就像是，“哦，每次她尝试撞墙时，我都会在那里支持她。”我当时想，“天啊，几年前我都忘了所有这些事情了。”我不知道。
Andrew Huberman: That's awesome.
安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, it's funny seeing the film.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，看这部电影很有趣。
It's really inspiring.
这真的很鼓舞人心。
Andrew Huberman: Is the route that she took particularly difficult?
Andrew Huberman：她走的路特别难吗？
What's the milestone that she achieves there?
她在那里取得的里程碑是什么？
Alex Honnold: Yeah, it's like she was the first woman to do that route in a day, free in a day.
Alex Honnold：是的，就像她是第一个在一天内完成这条路线的女性，一天免费。
That route's like a harder version of the Free Rider, the thing that I free soloed in the film "Free Solo." But yeah, I mean, honestly, I think the film does a good job of not trying to portray it as anything more than it is.
这条路线就像是搭便车的难度版本，我在电影《Free Solo》中徒手攀登的就是这条路线。但是，是的，我的意思是，老实说，我认为这部电影做得很好，没有试图将其描绘成更多的东西。
I mean, it's a very difficult climbing achievement, but it's not the hardest thing ever done.
我的意思是，这是一项非常困难的攀登成就，但这并不是有史以来最困难的事情。
It's not the first time that, you know?
这不是第一次了，你知道吗？
But it's very hard.
但这很难。
Alex Honnold: And if you watch the film, you see what makes it meaningful is the level of effort that she puts into it.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：如果你观看这部电影，你会发现它的意义在于她付出的努力。
It's like, it's hard for her.
就好像，这对她来说很难。
She's a great climber, and she puts a lot into it, a lot of herself into it, and eventually, I don't want to spoil it, but eventually overcomes and manages to do this thing that's really hard for her.
她是一位出色的登山者，她投入了很多，投入了很多自己的精力，最终，我不想破坏它，但最终克服并成功完成了这对她来说真的很难的事情。
And I think, which in a lot of ways is, I mean, that's climbing in a nutshell.
我认为，在很多方面，我的意思是，简而言之，这就是攀登。
It's like, none of it really matters because even free soloing El Cap, I mean, you can walk around the back.
就好像，这一切都不重要，因为即使是徒手独攀 El Cap，我的意思是，你也可以绕着后面走。
You know, it's like, why put in years of effort into climbing the face when you can walk around the back?" Like, all of climbing is relatively meaningless.
你知道，这就像，当你可以绕着后面走的时候，为什么要花多年的精力去攀登正面呢？”就像，所有的攀登都相对没有意义。
Alex Honnold: And so, ultimately, it's the effort that we put into it that has value.
Alex Honnold：因此，最终，我们投入的努力才有价值。
And so, I think that's what the film "Girl Climber" does a really good job of, is that you're sort of like, "Oh, wow," she puts a lot into it and therefore gets a lot out of it for herself.
所以，我认为这就是电影《女孩攀登者》做得很好的地方，你会觉得，“哦，哇，”她投入了很多，因此自己也从中得到了很多。
Andrew Huberman: Awesome.
安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。
And I haven't seen it yet, but clearly for the observer too, I mean, I find it amazing that humans love to see other humans accomplish great feats.
我还没有看到它，但对于观察者来说显然也是如此，我的意思是，我发现人类喜欢看到其他人完成伟大的壮举是令人惊奇的。
You know?
你知道吗？
Alex Honnold: Well, I think they love to see the effort.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯，我认为他们喜欢看到这种努力。
I mean, the accomplishment, of course, but you love seeing somebody work really hard at something, try really hard, like face their fears, overcome, and then ideally achieve something.
我的意思是，当然是成就，但你喜欢看到有人在某件事上非常努力，非常努力，比如面对他们的恐惧，克服，然后理想地实现某些事情。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: But I think it's the effort that's so inspiring.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：但我认为正是这种努力才如此鼓舞人心。
Like, I mean, at least personally, I love to see other people try that hard because it's a reminder that I can try that hard if I want to.
就像，我的意思是，至少就我个人而言，我喜欢看到其他人那么努力，因为这提醒我，如果我愿意，我可以那么努力。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
No, I completely agree.
不，我完全同意。
I had made this little list before we started, and trying to just let my unconscious mind guide it more than really scripting it out carefully.
在我们开始之前，我已经列出了这个小清单，并试图让我的潜意识引导它，而不是仔细地编写它。
And it says, "Evel Knievel," because when I was growing up, like, everything was Evel Knievel.
上面写着“Evel Knievel”，因为在我成长的过程中，一切都是 Evel Knievel。
Turned out there were many of them.
结果发现有很多。
It's a whole family.
这是一家人。
Alex Honnold: Oh, yeah?
亚历克斯·霍诺德：哦，是吗？
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, a bunch of Evel Knievels.
Andrew Huberman：是的，一群 Evel Knievels。
Alex Honnold: The Knievels?
亚历克斯·霍诺德：克尼维尔一家？
Andrew Huberman: The Knievels, yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：克尼维尔一家，是的。
Alex Honnold: Huh.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And you know, jumping whatever 50, maybe not 50 length to length, but semi-trucks, and I think, you know, there's the element of danger.
Andrew Huberman：你知道，跳任何 50 米，也许不是 50 米，而是半卡车，我认为，你知道，存在危险因素。
It's super impressive.
真是太令人印象深刻了。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Danny Way growing up, because I knew that kid who's now a full-grown man doing all sorts of crazy stuff to the point where he was starting to go after things that for skateboards just felt a little bit, kind of outside the box, like land speed records and things like that, you know, but jumping out of helicopters and certainly grump- jumping the Great Wall of China, just engineering it from scratch, was super impressive.
Andrew Huberman：丹尼·韦（Danny Way）长大了，因为我知道那个孩子现在已经是一个成年人了，做着各种疯狂的事情，以至于他开始追求那些对滑板来说感觉有点、有点打破常规的东西，比如陆地速度记录之类的东西，你知道，但从直升机上跳下来，当然脾气暴躁地跳过中国的长城，从头开始设计，真是太令人印象深刻了。
Alex Honnold: Hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And then I've got you here, and then Hunter Thompson, like the guy, was just all about how many drug experiences he could have.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：然后我请你来了，然后亨特·汤普森（Hunter Thompson），就像那个人一样，只是关心他可以有多少吸毒经历。
Alex Honnold: Hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And then at his funeral was actually-- He loved the town of Aspen.
安德鲁·休伯曼：然后在他的葬礼上，实际上——他喜欢阿斯彭镇。
He had his ashes exploded over the town of Aspen in a firework show.
他的骨灰在阿斯彭镇上空的烟花表演中爆炸。
So that's going out the way you lived, you know?
这就是你的生活方式，你知道吗？
Alex Honnold: That is fitting.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：这很合适。
Andrew Huberman: Right.
安德鲁·休伯曼：对。
So I think you're absolutely right, however, that we love to touch into the amount of effort and training that's required.
所以我认为你是绝对正确的，我们喜欢讨论所需的努力和培训。
I mean, that's the Rocky movies.
我的意思是，那是洛基电影。
That's pretty much everything.
这几乎就是一切。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And that's really where the work is.
Andrew Huberman：这才是真正的工作所在。
Like, that should be the inspiring part.
就像，这应该是鼓舞人心的部分。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Right?
安德鲁·休伯曼：对吗？
Because that's the part that one can adopt.
因为那是人们可以采用的部分。
Alex Honnold: I mean, the Rocky training montage, that's the best part of the movie.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：我的意思是，洛基训练蒙太奇，这是电影中最好的部分。
I mean, a lot of those films, the best part is the training montage where it's like cuts to the person working really, really hard for a long time getting swole, and then you get to the actual them doing the thing.
我的意思是，很多这样的电影，最好的部分是训练蒙太奇，就像剪辑一个人在很长一段时间内非常非常努力地工作而变得臃肿，然后你就可以看到他们实际做的事情。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: And them doing the thing is cool.
Alex Honnold：他们做这件事很酷。
But them getting ready to do the thing is often the part that you're like, "That's so awesome.
但当他们准备好做这件事时，你常常会觉得，“这太棒了。
I'm all fired up."
我整个人都兴奋起来了。”
Andrew Huberman: Totally.
安德鲁·休伯曼：完全可以。
It's the chasing chickens and all the weird stuff.
这是追鸡和所有奇怪的事情。
Andrew Huberman: Speaking of which, for the non-climber, what would be the strangest aspect to your training?
Andrew Huberman：说到这里，对于非登山者来说，你的训练中最奇怪的方面是什么？
Do you train your feet?
你练脚吗？
Do you train your hands in ways that are...
您是否以以下方式训练双手？
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Alex Honnold: No feet.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：没有脚。
Alex Honnold: But it's probably the dangling from your fingertips that I think a non-climber would...
亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）：但我认为非攀岩者可能会……
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: I mean, I think that's the type of thing that a non-climber just can't even interface with.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：我的意思是，我认为这是一种非登山者甚至无法接触的东西。
Like, they just can't hang from an edge, you know, as like from a small-- It's like the training-your-fingertip type of stuff.
就像，它们只是不能悬挂在边缘，你知道，就像悬挂在一个小东西上一样——这就像训练你的指尖类型的东西。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, man, I think the-- Though I mean, now there have been so many mainstream climbing things that I think people have a sense that that's what it is.
亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）：是的，伙计，我认为——虽然我的意思是，现在已经有很多主流的攀登事物，我认为人们有一种感觉，那就是它的本质。
You dangle on tiny edges and do pull-ups and all that kind of stuff.
你在微小的边缘上晃来晃去，做引体向上之类的事情。
Andrew Huberman: Well, I think I follow an Instagram account that's actually informative.
Andrew Huberman：嗯，我想我关注的 Instagram 帐户实际上提供了丰富的信息。
It's a former army guy.
这是一个前军人。
He's a rock climber.
他是一名攀岩运动员。
And so it's mainly focused on pull-ups and things like that, and touching into how if you change the speed of the initial one-arm pull-up, like I learned to blast through the bar, through and above the bar, and let go, and then catch it again generates a completely different sort of motor neuron adaptation response than just doing a bunch of pull-ups or a slow one-arm pull-ups.
所以它主要集中在引体向上和类似的事情上，并探讨如果你改变最初的单臂引体向上的速度，就像我学会了冲过杠铃，穿过杠铃并在杠铃上方，然后放手，然后再次抓住它，会产生一种与仅仅做一堆引体向上或缓慢的单臂引体向上完全不同的运动神经元适应反应。
Alex Honnold: Hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯。
Alex Honnold: Hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: Hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Like, the ability to be ballistic and then also the eccentric catch yourself and lower.
安德鲁·休伯曼：就像，有弹道的能力，然后还有古怪的人抓住自己并降低。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And it seems to have a lot of parallels with climbing.
Andrew Huberman：这似乎与攀岩有很多相似之处。
Maybe I should just go on a wall and climb, it sounds like.
听起来，也许我应该爬到墙上去爬。
So I imagine if you're bouldering, you end up doing all this stuff in the process of bouldering.
所以我想如果你在抱石，你最终会在抱石过程中做所有这些事情。
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Actually, I was immediately like, "So should I be going faster when I do pull-ups?" Because I've been doing one-arms at the end of a session, but my one-arms are pretty slow, you know?
事实上，我立刻就想，“那么我做引体向上时应该走得更快吗？”因为我在训练结束时一直在做单臂训练，但我的单臂训练相当慢，你知道吗？
You just grab the bar, and you just struggle until you do a-
你只要抓住杠铃，然后你就会挣扎，直到你做到——
Andrew Huberman: Well, I mean, he talks about a lot of people can do a lot of pull-ups in a full range, slow, concentric, and eccentric, but that they rarely ever get to, like, muscle-ups or to one-arm pull-ups at the kind of level that he's pulling a ton of weight because there are a number of things that he suggests.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：嗯，我的意思是，他谈到很多人可以做很多全方位的引体向上，缓慢的，同心的，偏心的，但他们很少能达到像他拉大量重量的水平的双力臂或单臂引体向上，因为他建议了很多事情。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: We can link to this account.
Andrew Huberman：我们可以链接到该帐户。
There's some training of forearms, brachialis, and hands that's required.
需要对前臂、肱肌和手进行一些训练。
But he said that not being able to generate enough force at the beginning is the reason a lot of people don't get to the muscle-up, because with the muscle-up, there's a little bit of a kip involved, at least when one's first learning it.
但他表示，一开始无法产生足够的力量是很多人无法进行双力臂举重的原因，因为双力臂举重会涉及到一些小动作，至少在刚开始学习时是这样。
Alex Honnold: Hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And so people are used to kind of dragging themselves in low gear out of the bottom.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以人们习惯于以低速将自己拖出谷底。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: It's going to be a long while before they have the strength to do a muscle-up.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：他们需要很长时间才能有力量做双力臂。
Whereas if you can blast yourself out of the bottom, you sort of end up almost above the bar at some point.
然而，如果你能把自己从谷底冲出来，那么你最终会在某个时刻几乎高于酒吧。
Yeah.
是的。
Alex Honnold: Totally.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：完全可以。
Alex Honnold: I actually just started doing muscle-ups again, like a couple of months ago, in my little home gym.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：实际上，我刚刚又开始做双力臂，就像几个月前一样，在我的小家庭健身房里。
And I was like, "I haven't done a muscle-up since I was a teenager." You know, I was like, as a kind of gym feat when you're a kid, just to see if you can.
我当时想，“我从十几岁起就没有做过双力臂了。”你知道，我就像小时候的一种健身壮举，只是为了看看你是否可以。
And as an adult also living in a van, obviously, you can't do muscle-ups because there's nothing to muscle up on.
作为一个也住在货车里的成年人，显然，你不能做双力臂，因为没有什么可以双力臂的。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Right, right, right, right, right.
安德鲁·休伯曼：对，对，对，对，对。
Alex Honnold: You're like hanging from a little bar inside the van.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：你就像挂在货车内的一个小酒吧里一样。
But yeah, I started doing them again.
但是，是的，我又开始这样做了。
I was like, "Oh wow, it's so explosive."
我当时想，“哇哦，太爆炸了。”
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: I was kind of like, "Wow, what a dude." I was so psyched I could still do them.
亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）：我当时想，“哇，真是个家伙。”我太兴奋了，我仍然可以做到。
Andrew Huberman: Well, yeah, then you don't need his help.
Andrew Huberman：嗯，是的，那么你就不需要他的帮助了。
But I'll send you the discount so you can take a look.
但我会把折扣寄给你，这样你就可以看看。
He's got some interesting progressions.
他有一些有趣的进展。
Alex Honnold: Well, I did want to-- I mean, I was like, "Oh, I'm going to chat with Huberman." I was like, "So what am I supposed to be doing?" You know what I mean?
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯，我确实想——我的意思是，我当时想，“哦，我要和休伯曼聊天。”我当时想，“那我应该做什么？”你知道我的意思吗？
Andrew Huberman: Oh, we can talk about that, but-
安德鲁·休伯曼：哦，我们可以谈谈这个，但是-
Alex Honnold: But that's the thing, it's like, well, because I've just been doing all the same training stuff for 30 years.
Alex Honnold：但事情就是这样，嗯，因为 30 年来我一直在做同样的训练。
And obviously, I read all the books and all my friends are professional climbers.
显然，我读了所有的书，我所有的朋友都是职业登山者。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: So, we talk about this kind of stuff all the time.
Alex Honnold：所以，我们一直在谈论这类事情。
But there are a lot of things where you're always kind of like, as a self-trained, self-coached athlete to some extent, you're kind of like, "Should I be doing this more?
但在很多事情上，作为一名自我训练、自我教练的运动员，在某种程度上，你总是会想，“我应该多做一些吗？
Should I be doing this less?" Like, I was training a bunch this summer and was really motivated, and then I've kind of just the pendulum has kind of just swung back to being like, "Do I need to do trainee stuff like the calisthenics, the extra workout stuff?
我应该少做一些吗？”比如，今年夏天我训练了很多人，并且非常有动力，然后我的态度又回到了“我需要做一些实习生的事情，比如健美操、额外的锻炼吗？
Or should I just go pure climbing?" Because to some extent, climbing, if you want to be a good climber, you just climb.
还是我应该纯粹去攀岩？”因为从某种程度上来说，攀岩，如果你想成为一名优秀的攀岩者，你就只需要攀爬。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: Like, if you have energy left over, you should just climb harder or climb more.
亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）：就像，如果你还有剩余的能量，你应该爬得更努力或更爬得更多。
You don't necessarily need to save it for workout stuff and training stuff.
您不一定需要将其保存用于锻炼和训练。
So I don't know, but yeah.
所以我不知道，但是是的。
What do you think?
你怎么认为？
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
Well, I'm not going to tell-
好吧，我不会告诉——
Alex Honnold: Even though you're not a climber.
Alex Honnold：即使你不是登山者。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: I'll how to change his training, especially before you take on a big milestone.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我会告诉你如何改变他的训练，特别是在你实现一个重大里程碑之前。
I mean, all I can say is "What?" And I don't have a degree in exercise physiology.
我的意思是，我只能说“什么？”我没有运动生理学学位。
What I do have a degree in is 35 years of trying to get stronger.
我所拥有的学位是 35 年努力变得更强的经历。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, of like strength training, yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，就像力量训练一样，是的。
Andrew Huberman: I'm naturally pretty, I would say, like, medium joints.
Andrew Huberman：我天生就很漂亮，我想说的是，中等关节。
I'm not real thick joints, like my bulldog.
我不像我的斗牛犬那样关节粗。
You know, like some of those guys that just have naturally, their joints.
你知道，就像那些天生就有关节的人一样。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: But I manage to keep in some endurance and some degree of explosivity.
Andrew Huberman：但我设法保持一定的耐力和一定程度的爆发力。
But mostly, strength and endurance have been the two main things.
但最重要的是，力量和耐力是两个主要因素。
Andrew Huberman: To me, the thing that has just been the most beneficial is what Pavel Tsatsouline taught me when he came here, which is take a weight that you can maybe do six or seven, maybe eight reps with and do three repetitions.
Andrew Huberman：对我来说，最有益的事情是 Pavel Tsatsouline 来到这里时教给我的，那就是举一个你可以做六到七次，也许八次的重量，然后重复三次。
Set it down and just do many more sets and rest a long period of time, if you have time to do that.
如果你有时间的话，放下它，多做几组，休息很长一段时间。
That really works those fast-twitch motor units.
这确实对那些快肌单位有效。
Alex Honnold: You mean do the do the reps faster?
亚历克斯·霍诺德：你的意思是做次数更快吗？
Andrew Huberman: Well, no, not necessarily.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯，不，不一定。
So if you take a weight that you could do maximum eight, like you'd fail somewhere between seven and eight repetitions.
因此，如果你选择的重量最多可以做八次，那么你就会失败七到八次。
Alex Honnold: Okay.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：好的。
Andrew Huberman: You take the weight, maybe even add a little bit, and you just do three repetitions.
Andrew Huberman：你承受重量，甚至可能增加一点重量，然后只需重复三次。
You don't go to failure, but you do many more sets.
你不会失败，但你会做更多组。
Alex Honnold: Hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: So you might do, let's say, some sort of push-pull, so like a shoulder press of some sort or-- And then if you could get eight, you do three or four, but then you go do your pull-ups.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以你可能会做某种推拉动作，比如某种肩部推举或者——然后如果你能做到八个，你就做三到四个，然后你就去做引体向上。
You might do your, you know, sort of ballistic pull-ups that we were talking about before.
你可能会做我们之前讨论过的弹道引体向上。
I'm actually getting a lot of progress from those.
事实上，我从这些方面取得了很大的进步。
Those like trying to blast through and past the bar and kind of catch it below.
那些人喜欢尝试冲破并越过横杆，然后在下面接住它。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: Can you do a muscle-up?
亚历克斯·霍诺德：你能做双力臂吗？
Andrew Huberman: I'm almost there.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我就快到了。
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I'm kipping too much when I do it.
Andrew Huberman：当我这样做的时候，我跳得太多了。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: So I'm doing it, but I'm kind of like throwing myself up there.
Andrew Huberman：所以我正在这样做，但我有点想把自己扔在那里。
I'm not doing, like, a super controlled muscle-up yet.
我还没有做超级控制双力臂之类的动作。
Soon.
很快。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: That's the goal.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这就是目标。
But not training to failure seems to be really beneficial if you don't want to eat into your recovery too much.
但如果您不想对恢复造成太大影响，那么不进行力竭训练似乎确实有益。
There's something about hitting muscular failure that's great for generating hypertrophy, but it really, according to Pavel, and I'm finding this too, it sort of teaches your nervous system to reach that static point where you can't move any longer, and it really eats into your recovery ability.
肌肉衰竭对于产生肌肉肥大有很大帮助，但根据帕维尔的说法，我也发现了这一点，它确实会教会你的神经系统达到你无法再移动的静态点，这确实会影响你的恢复能力。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: So I'm able to now train muscle groups that I used to only be able to recover if I train them once or twice a week.
Andrew Huberman：所以我现在能够训练以前只有每周训练一两次才能恢复的肌肉群。
I can train them like three or four days a week.
我每周可以训练他们三到四天。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And I'm making much more progress overall.
Andrew Huberman：总体而言，我取得了更大的进步。
But there's no single set where I'm like grinding out that last final rep.
但没有任何一组动作能让我完成最后的最后一次动作。
Alex Honnold: That's interesting.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：这很有趣。
So bench pressing for example.
例如卧推。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: So like that's actually the only weight that I move around is I bench...
亚历克斯·霍诺德：所以实际上我移动的唯一重量就是我的板凳......
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: When I'm at home and have my own little home gym, I bench press like twice a week, let's say.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：当我在家并拥有自己的小型健身房时，我每周会进行两次卧推。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: And I feel like it's good for shoulder stability, health.
Alex Honnold：我觉得这对肩膀的稳定性和健康都有好处。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, definitely.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，当然。
Definitely.
确实。
Alex Honnold: It's like nice to balanced because as a climber you're always pulling.
Alex Honnold：保持平衡很好，因为作为一名登山者，你总是在拉力。
Andrew Huberman: Sure.
安德鲁·休伯曼：当然。
Alex Honnold: So it's like, that's my only pushing basically.
Alex Honnold：所以这基本上是我唯一的推动力。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Yeah, I know something about that.
是的，我对此有所了解。
Yeah.
是的。
Alex Honnold: So I can do like...
亚历克斯·霍诺德：所以我可以这样做......
I normally do three sets of five or six.
我通常做三组，每组五六次。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: It's just kind of like a basic something.
Alex Honnold：这有点像一个基本的东西。
So you're saying I should do like six sets or like eight?
所以你是说我应该做六组还是八组？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Six.
安德鲁·休伯曼：六。
Alex Honnold: Eight sets of three or something.
Alex Honnold：八组，每组三人之类的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Maybe eight sets of three to four with slightly more weight, but don't go to failure.
也许可以做八组，每组三到四次，重量稍重一些，但不要失败。
And obviously have a spotter.
显然还有一个观察员。
Alex Honnold: Huh.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: There are these horrible instances where people are benching at home, and they don't have a spotter.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：有一些可怕的情况，人们坐在家里的板凳上，却没有观察员。
Alex Honnold: Hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯。
Alex Honnold: Well, I only have dumbbells anyway, so...
Alex Honnold：嗯，反正我只有哑铃，所以......
yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Okay, perfect.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的，完美。
That's the best way to do it.
这是最好的方法。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, like that's the type of thing, too.
Alex Honnold：是的，好像也是这样的事情。
Also, I kind of like the dumbbells because it seems more like, so much of what I care about is shoulder stability and whatever, and I'm kind of like, "Oh, it seems like dumbbells are good for that."
另外，我有点喜欢哑铃，因为它看起来更像是，我最关心的是肩膀的稳定性等等，我有点像，“哦，看起来哑铃对此很有好处。”
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Barbell bench, I'm going to catch a lot of shit for this, but barbell bench press, there's a lot of ego involved for people.
杠铃卧推，我会为此抓到很多狗屎，但是杠铃卧推，人们涉及很多自我。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, it's too showy.
Alex Honnold：是的，太艳丽了。
I'm like, "I don't need that shit."
我想，“我不需要那些狗屎。”
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
I've never actually done a single rep max for barbell bench press.
我从来没有真正做过一次杠铃卧推的最大次数。
Alex Honnold: Oh.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：哦。
Andrew Huberman: Never been curious enough.
安德鲁·休伯曼：从来没有足够的好奇心。
Alex Honnold: Because you don't have enough friends to help spot that much weight, yeah?
亚历克斯·霍诺德：因为你没有足够的朋友来帮助发现那么大的重量，是吗？
Andrew Huberman: Don't have enough friends.
安德鲁·休伯曼：没有足够的朋友。
Exactly.
确切地。
Alex Honnold: You need like six guys to hold the bar.
亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）：你需要六个人来保持平衡。
Andrew Huberman: I'm all alone, I'm studying, and I'm bench pressing alone in my basement.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我独自一人，我正在学习，我独自在地下室做卧推。
Andrew Huberman: Another reason to use dumbbells.
Andrew Huberman：使用哑铃的另一个原因。
But yet, taking a weight that you could do seven or eight repetitions and doing three or four or maybe five, and then just setting it down and going doing something else, maybe for an opposing muscle group, and then coming back to it so that your total rest is somewhere in between.
但是，选择一个可以重复七八次的重量，然后重复三四次或五次，然后放下它，去做其他事情，也许是针对相反的肌肉群，然后再回到原来的重量，这样你的总休息时间就介于两者之间。
Alex Honnold: I might try that, particularly for the benching, because I do actually get kind of sore from like, you know, it's kind of hard.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：我可能会尝试一下，特别是在板凳上，因为我确实感到有点酸痛，你知道，这有点难。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Being sore sucks.
安德鲁·休伯曼：疼痛很糟糕。
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And you get really strong.
Andrew Huberman：你会变得非常坚强。
I never would've thought this because I came up in the lineage of-- I learned from Mike Mentzer.
我从来没有想到过这一点，因为我是从迈克·门泽 (Mike Mentzer) 那里学到的。
He was an ex-bodybuilder, but then he trained Dorian Yates, who won the Olympia many times.
他曾是一名健美运动员，但后来他训练了多里安·耶茨(Dorian Yates)，后者多次赢得了奥林匹亚比赛的冠军。
Alex Honnold: Huh.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯。
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And that whole philosophy was around doing one or two sets to absolute failure with forced reps and drop sets and all the stuff that builds a lot of muscle but makes you very sore.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：整个理念就是通过强迫次数和递减组以及所有可以增强肌肉但让你感到非常酸痛的东西，做一到两组到绝对失败。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And so, Pavel sat right where you're sitting, and he was just like, "Try this.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：所以，帕维尔坐在你坐的地方，他就像，“试试这个。
Find movements you can do safely, load up the bar, and do far fewer reps, many more sets.
找到你可以安全完成的动作，加载杠铃，并做更少的次数，更多的组数。
Alex Honnold: Hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And perhaps even divide those sets across two days during the week, as you're already doing."
Andrew Huberman：甚至可能将这些组划分为一周中的两天，就像您已经在做的那样。”
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: As opposed to just training a muscle group once per week.
Andrew Huberman：而不是每周只训练一次肌肉群。
Alex Honnold: Do people do that?
亚历克斯·霍诺德：人们会这样做吗？
Doing something once a week?
每周做一次某事？
Andrew Huberman: I only train my legs once a week, and I'm getting stronger most every workout.
Andrew Huberman：我每周只训练一次腿部，而且每次训练我都会变得更强壮。
Alex Honnold: Really?
亚历克斯·霍诺德：真的吗？
Andrew Huberman: But I sprint on a separate day.
Andrew Huberman：但我在另一天进行冲刺。
So that's kind of a leg workout.
这就是腿部锻炼。
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
That seems like a leg workout.
这看起来像是腿部锻炼。
Andrew Huberman: I don't have great recovery ability.
Andrew Huberman：我没有很强的恢复能力。
Never have.
从来没有。
Alex Honnold: And you know, pushing 50 and...
Alex Honnold：你知道，推到 50 岁之后......
Andrew Huberman: What's that?
安德鲁·休伯曼： 那是什么？
And I'm pushing 50.
我正在推动50。
Alex Honnold: And you're pushing 50, yeah.
Alex Honnold：是的，你正在推动 50 岁。
Andrew Huberman: And I didn't run from the valley floor.
Andrew Huberman：我并没有从谷底跑出来。
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊，是啊。
Exactly.
确切地。
Andrew Huberman: Right.
安德鲁·休伯曼：对。
You know, clouds...
你知道，云...
You know?
你知道吗？
Andrew Huberman: Exactly.
安德鲁·休伯曼：没错。
I definitely have found that if I avoid going to momentary muscular failure, as it's called, far less soreness, far better recovery, and you get really strong.
我确实发现，如果我避免出现所谓的暂时性肌肉衰竭，酸痛就会少得多，恢复也会好得多，而且你会变得非常强壮。
Which is crazy.
这太疯狂了。
You would think the opposite.
你可能会认为相反。
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Do you think once a week is enough?
你觉得一周一次就够了吗？
Stimulus basically to build?
刺激基本建设？
Andrew Huberman: If you do enough sets, but probably twice-- You know that the data seem to show that the muscle protein synthesis is initiated after those workouts, and then it takes anywhere from 48 to 72 hours before it subsides.
Andrew Huberman：如果你做了足够多的组数，但可能是两次——你知道数据似乎表明肌肉蛋白质合成是在这些训练后开始的，然后需要 48 到 72 小时才能消退。
I just personally find if I train my legs once a week, but then I sprint four or five days later, that's sort of two leg workouts.
我个人发现，如果我每周训练一次腿部，但四五天后冲刺，那就是两条腿的训练。
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: You know?
安德鲁·休伯曼：你知道吗？
Alex Honnold: That makes sense.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：这是有道理的。
Andrew Huberman: So it's really twice a week.
Andrew Huberman：所以实际上是每周两次。
And then I do a push-pull day, and then I do a separate day for my arms and extremities, and that ends up training chest and shoulders and back again.
然后我会进行一天的推拉训练，然后我会单独进行一天的手臂和四肢训练，最后再次训练胸部、肩膀和背部。
So it's really twice per week, once directly, once indirectly.
所以实际上每周两次，一次直接，一次间接。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, so you're doing all your stuff basically twice a week.
Alex Honnold：是的，所以你基本上每周两次做所有的事情。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, but everything heavy.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，但一切都很重。
Alex Honnold: That makes sense.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：这是有道理的。
Andrew Huberman: Like, really heavy, never going-- I don't think I've done above eight reps this year.
安德鲁·休伯曼：就像，真的很重，永远不会——我认为今年我没有完成超过八次的次数。
Andrew Huberman: I'm stronger than ever, and I can run really far.
Andrew Huberman：我比以往任何时候都更强壮，而且我可以跑很远。
Alex Honnold: Mm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯。
Alex Honnold: Mm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Which is so the two things I set those-
Andrew Huberman：这就是我设置的两件事-
Alex Honnold: Do you do a long run during the week or something?
亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）：你在一周内会进行长跑吗？
Andrew Huberman: I do one, for me, very long run, which means an hour to an hour and a half of just running with a 10-pound weight vest.
Andrew Huberman：对我来说，我会做一次很长的跑，这意味着穿着 10 磅重的背心跑一个小时到一个半小时。
Alex Honnold: Huh.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯。
Alex Honnold: Really?
亚历克斯·霍诺德：真的吗？
Alex Honnold: Oh, why is that?
亚历克斯·霍诺德：噢，这是为什么？
Andrew Huberman: Just to make sure that the small stabilizing muscles are strong, and also because I want to be able to just show up to Clouds Rest and just do it.
Andrew Huberman：只是为了确保小稳定肌肉很强大，也因为我希望能够出现在 Clouds Rest 并做到这一点。
Alex Honnold: Uh-huh.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I don't want to have to train for things in life.
Andrew Huberman：我不想为了生活中的事情而训练。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, I can do that.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，我能做到。
Andrew Huberman: And also, I love running.
安德鲁·休伯曼：而且，我喜欢跑步。
I mean, just that slow pace at first, it sucks.
我的意思是，一开始就这么慢的节奏，很糟糕。
And then after about 20 minutes, you're just like, "I could go all day.
大约 20 分钟后，你就会说：“我可以走一整天。
This is awesome."
这太棒了。”
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I don't know.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我不知道。
That's been my regimen now for almost 35 years, to train each muscle group once a week, directly, indirectly a long run, and I try and do one sprint run.
近 35 年来，这一直是我的养生之道，每周训练每个肌肉群一次，直接或间接长跑，我尝试做一次短跑。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: But again, I'm not going to tell Alex Honnold how to train, but you might find if you-
安德鲁·胡伯曼：但是，我不会告诉亚历克斯·霍诺德如何训练，但你可能会发现，如果你-
Alex Honnold: I'm always looking for ideas.
Alex Honnold：我一直在寻找想法。
Andrew Huberman: If you don't like getting sore and you want to get stronger-
Andrew Huberman：如果你不喜欢酸痛并且想变得更强-
Alex Honnold: Yeah, that makes sense to me.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，这对我来说很有意义。
Andrew Huberman: You're hearing it from me, but it's really Pavel Tsatsouline that deserves the credit for this.
Andrew Huberman：您是从我这里听到的，但真正值得称赞的是 Pavel Tsatsouline。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, no, I'll try that for sure.
Alex Honnold：是的，不，我肯定会尝试。
Because, particularly with something like benching, where it's like I don't really care about pushing muscles, but when your pec or whatever this muscle is connecting your shoulder, it's like-
因为，特别是像卧推这样的事情，我并不真正关心推动肌肉，但是当你的胸肌或任何连接肩膀的肌肉时，就像——
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Your shoulder, upper back region.
你的肩膀、上背部区域。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, it's so sore, and then that kind of affects all your pulling as well.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，太疼了，这也会影响你所有的拉力。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Alex Honnold: And so you're kind of like, "Oh, you just don't need to get that sore doing something that's like a side activity anyway."
亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）：所以你有点像，“哦，你只是不需要做一些类似于副业的事情而感到疼痛。”
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
And I'm guessing you're already getting it from your climbing, but I've found that anytime I'm doing pushing, which is basically all the time, making sure that I train, like some rear deltoid type thing where you're pulling, getting that smaller muscle on the back of the shoulders.
我猜你已经从攀登中得到了它，但我发现每当我做推的时候，基本上是所有的时间，确保我训练，就像你拉的三角肌后部类型的东西一样，让肩膀后面的小肌肉得到锻炼。
Because a lot of peopl-- You don't have this problem, but if you look at a lot of people who lift weights, they just stand passively, their thumbs kind of point towards their groin.
因为很多人——你没有这个问题，但是如果你看看很多举重的人，他们只是被动地站立，他们的拇指指向腹股沟。
Like, they're kind of internally rotated.
就像，它们有点内部旋转。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, rolling in, yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，滚过来，是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, whereas if you look at people who kind of do the Fonzie thing, you want your shoulder-- You want your thumbs, like if you were just standing or sitting naturally, your thumbs pointing straight forward.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，而如果你看看那些做方齐那样的人，你想要你的肩膀——你想要你的拇指，就像你只是自然地站着或坐着，你的拇指笔直指向前方。
So you're looking like-- Like, I've met Mike Tyson, and he's like this, but he spent his whole life in this peekaboo stance, right?
所以你看起来就像——就像，我见过迈克·泰森，他就是这样，但他一生都在这种躲猫猫的姿势中度过，对吗？
Alex Honnold: Yeah, yeah, totally.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，是的，完全如此。
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Then you meet people like you or people who practice yoga regularly, or the really most impressive postures and physiques are the dancers.
Andrew Huberman：然后你会遇到像你这样的人，或者经常练习瑜伽的人，或者真正令人印象深刻的姿势和体格是舞者。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Right?
安德鲁·休伯曼：对吗？
Like Erich Jarvis was on this podcast, he's a neuroscientist, but he was accepted into the Allen-- Is it Allen Ailey Dance Company?
就像埃里希·贾维斯在这个播客中所说的那样，他是一名神经科学家，但他被艾伦——是艾伦·艾利舞蹈团录取了吗？
It was like an elite dance company, or you see a Twyla Tharp who's in her 80s.
这就像一个精英舞蹈团，或者你会看到一个 80 多岁的 Twyla Tharp。
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, right, right.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，对，对。
Andrew Huberman: She doesn't look like she's rigidly upright.
安德鲁·休伯曼：她看起来并不像一板一眼的直立人。
She's just upright.
她只是直立着。
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And that's how I want to be when I'm in my 80s.
Andrew Huberman：这就是我 80 岁时想要成为的样子。
Alex Honnold: But that's so hard.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：但这太难了。
Andrew Huberman: Well, it's just she spends two hours a day in the gym seven days a week.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯，只是她每周 7 天每天花两个小时在健身房。
Alex Honnold: Wow.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：哇。
Andrew Huberman: From 5:00 AM to 7:00 AM.
Andrew Huberman：早上 5:00 至早上 7:00。
Alex Honnold: That is a friggin' routine.
亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）：这真是一个该死的例行公事。
Andrew Huberman: And she's in her 80s.
Andrew Huberman：她已经 80 多岁了。
Andrew Huberman: And then three hard-boiled eggs, and then she gets to work.
安德鲁·休伯曼：然后是三个煮鸡蛋，然后她就开始工作了。
Alex Honnold: Huh.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Like, yeah.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：就像，是的。
Alex Honnold: I'm like, "That's a healthy lifestyle."
亚历克斯·霍诺德：我想，“这是一种健康的生活方式。”
Andrew Huberman: And cognitively, she's just so strong.
安德鲁·休伯曼：从认知上来说，她非常强大。
Alex Honnold: Huh.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: You know?
安德鲁·休伯曼：你知道吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, no, climbers definitely have issues with posture like that because if you spend your whole life just pulling, like climbing, if you just climb, you're just doing pulling things, and so you kind of like...
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，不，登山者肯定有这样的姿势问题，因为如果你一生都在拉，就像攀登一样，如果你只是攀登，你只是在做拉的事情，所以你有点喜欢......
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: So you're all bowed.
Andrew Huberman：所以你们都鞠躬了。
Andrew Huberman: Or, or they end up like this?
Andrew Huberman：或者，或者他们最终会变成这样？
Alex Honnold: But actually this you kind of wind up hunched.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：但实际上，你最终会驼背。
I think it's because you still use some of these muscles for pulling, and so you just wind up kind of tight in different ways.
我认为这是因为你仍然使用其中一些肌肉来拉动，所以你只是以不同的方式变得紧张。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Alex Honnold: But yeah, it's like the hunched back for fun.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：但是，是的，这就像为了好玩而驼背。
Andrew Huberman: So things like they put you in a bridge pose and in spinal extension.
Andrew Huberman：所以它们会让你处于桥式和脊柱伸展状态。
Those seem to be very useful.
这些似乎非常有用。
Again, I'm not an elite athlete or even a competitive athlete, but I find that doing things like a long slow run, a sprint day, training heavy with weights, but being able to run for 30 minutes.
再说一次，我不是一名精英运动员，甚至不是一名竞技运动员，但我发现做一些事情，比如长距离慢跑、冲刺日、大重量训练，但能够跑 30 分钟。
I mean, it's just I don't think I need a degree in exercise physiology to just...
我的意思是，我认为我不需要运动生理学学位就可以......
It didn't make sense.
这没有道理。
I'm trying to be upper-end of average at everything, but that's very different than what you're trying to do, obviously.
我试图在所有事情上都达到平均水平的高端，但这显然与你想要做的事情非常不同。
You're an elite athlete.
你是一名精英运动员。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, but some of the stuff, like running?
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，但是有些东西，比如跑步？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: Like, I went for a one-hour run yesterday.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：就像，我昨天跑步了一小时。
I've been trying to run one day a week, just like run for an hour once a week.
我一直在尝试每周跑步一天，就像每周跑一次一小时一样。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Great, yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼： 太好了，是的。
Alex Honnold: And then I try to do one kind of cardio adventure once a week, which is like climb a mountain or do something, you know?
亚历克斯·霍诺德：然后我尝试每周进行一次有氧运动，就像爬山或做某事，你知道吗？
Andrew Huberman: Awesome.
安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。
Alex Honnold: Anywhere from like two to four hours, let's say, but hopefully with 3000-plus feet of vert or something.
Alex Honnold：可以说，大概是两到四个小时，但最好是在 3000 多英尺的垂直高度或其他地方。
Just like go up a thing, kind of trot down.
就像往上走一样，然后小跑下来。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: And that's kind of enough to maintain cardio.
Alex Honnold：这足以维持有氧运动。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: I mean, this is kind of like a family lifestyle because the thing is, like, when I was living in a van by myself, you were just doing that stuff on rest days all the time because you're kind of like, "Oh, I'm going to summit this new peak."
亚历克斯·霍诺德：我的意思是，这有点像家庭生活方式，因为事情就像，当我独自住在一辆货车里时，你一直在休息日做这些事情，因为你有点像，“哦，我要登上这个新的高峰。”
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Right.
安德鲁·休伯曼：对。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: You're like, 'Check out this hike,' or 'Do whatever.' But now that I'm living in a place and, you know, taking kids to school and all that.
亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）：你会说，“看看这次徒步旅行”，或者“做任何事。”但现在我住在一个地方，而且，你知道，送孩子们去学校等等。
It's like I kind of have to be a little more structured with just, like, I'm going to go and...
就好像我必须更加结构化，就像，我要去......
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: But so yeah, now I'm definitely thinking about all this a little more.
Alex Honnold：但是，是的，现在我确实对这一切有了更多的思考。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: Just like, "Is this enough cardio?
亚历克斯·霍诺德：就像，“这足够有氧运动了吗？
You know, does this work?"
你知道，这有用吗？”
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: But I think that lays a good foundation to be able to do things.
Alex Honnold：但我认为这为能够做事奠定了良好的基础。
Like, I'm going to be in Yosemite this season, and you know, I'm aspiring to climb stuff on El Cap.
就像，这个季节我要去约塞米蒂国家公园，你知道，我渴望攀爬埃尔卡普峰。
Not free soloing necessarily, or not free soloing at all, but maybe some, like rope soloing, maybe some speed stuff, maybe whatever.
不一定是自由独奏，或者根本不是自由独奏，但也许有一些，比如绳索独奏，也许是一些速度的东西，也许什么。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: But either way, I just want to be able to climb 3000 feet relatively quickly without being that tired.
Alex Honnold：但不管怎样，我只是希望能够相对快速地爬升 3000 英尺而不那么累。
And so it seems like for running or for mountain climbing, it's like, "Oh, well, you just have to be able to do that kind of vertical without getting too fatigued."
因此，对于跑步或登山来说，就像是，“哦，好吧，你必须能够做那种垂直运动而不会太疲劳。”
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Alex Honnold: You know?
亚历克斯·霍诺德：你知道吗？
Andrew Huberman: I think one day a week a long run, one day a week a 30-minute run at a faster clip, and then one day a week sprint training.
Andrew Huberman：我认为每周有一天进行长跑，每周有一天进行 30 分钟的快速跑，然后每周有一天进行冲刺训练。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I mean, you're covering all bases there.
Andrew Huberman：我的意思是，你覆盖了那里的所有基地。
Alex Honnold: That's three days a week of running, though.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：不过，那是每周跑步三天。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Alex Honnold: And I'm like, "I don't love running that much."
亚历克斯·霍诺德：我想，“我不太喜欢跑步。”
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, but one of them is like 12 minutes long.
Andrew Huberman：是的，但其中一集大约有 12 分钟长。
You warm up for three minutes and then-
你热身三分钟，然后——
Alex Honnold: Is sprint training 12 minutes?
Alex Honnold：冲刺训练是 12 分钟吗？
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, because you warm up and then you run a 400 and then you walk a lap, you do a 200.
Andrew Huberman：是的，因为你先热身，然后跑 400 米，然后走一圈，跑 200 米。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, okay.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，好的。
Andrew Huberman: You walk a lap, you do a 100.
Andrew Huberman：你走一圈，你就跑了 100 米。
And you're going not all out, all out.
而且你不会全力以赴，全力以赴。
Alex Honnold: But close.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：但是很接近。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, you can hurt yourself sprinting all out, all out.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，全力冲刺可能会伤害自己。
We had Stu McMillan, who's an elite sprint coach, trains a lot of Olympians and gold medalists, and yeah, running full speed is how you hurt yourself.
我们有斯图·麦克米伦（Stu McMillan），他是一名优秀的短跑教练，训练过很多奥运会选手和金牌得主，是的，全速奔跑会伤害自己。
Alex Honnold: Mm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: You pop a hamstring or something, like you-
安德鲁·休伯曼：你会拉伤腿筋什么的，就像你一样——
Alex Honnold: Are you at a track?
亚历克斯·霍诺德：你在赛道上吗？
Andrew Huberman: I prefer doing it at the track.
Andrew Huberman：我更喜欢在赛道上进行。
Sometimes I'll do it in the soft sand.
有时我会在柔软的沙子上做。
And when I use a vest, I should say, and I have no sponsorship relationship with them.
而当我使用背心的时候，我应该说，我和他们没有赞助关系。
Amorpho makes these vests are like, it looks...
Amorpho 使这些背心就像，看起来......
Alex Honnold: Oh.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：哦。
Andrew Huberman: And it's kind of funny to call it this, but it looks more like a kind of vest that, you know, like a dress vest.
Andrew Huberman：这样称呼它有点有趣，但它看起来更像是一种背心，你知道，就像礼服背心。
Andrew Huberman: And it's got little ball bearings in it.
Andrew Huberman：里面有小滚珠轴承。
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Alex Honnold: Oh.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：哦。
Andrew Huberman: So it's not like one of those police-type vests.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以它不像那些警察型背心。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, it's not.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，不是。
Andrew Huberman: And so that 8 or 10 pounds that they make up to 12 pounds, I think, it is just enough to give you some extra work on that long run.
Andrew Huberman：我认为，8 或 10 磅的重量可以达到 12 磅，从长远来看，这足以让你做一些额外的工作。
And then on the day when you sprint, you feel like you have, you know, jet propulsion.
然后在你冲刺的那天，你会感觉自己拥有了喷气推进力。
Alex Honnold: Hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: You know, I feel like that.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你知道，我也有这样的感觉。
I realize I don't.
我意识到我不知道。
Alex Honnold: Interesting.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：有趣。
Andrew Huberman: But yeah, I realize I don't.
Andrew Huberman：但是，是的，我意识到我不知道。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, totally, totally.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，完全，完全。
Andrew Huberman: And then all the little stabilizer things, like you don't have any aching, like you're-
Andrew Huberman：然后所有的小稳定器，就像你没有任何疼痛，就像你-
Alex Honnold: Not really.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：并非如此。
Andrew Huberman: You seem very balanced in terms of your overall structure.
Andrew Huberman：您的整体结构看起来非常平衡。
That's one thing that I've really noticed about climbers.
这是我真正注意到登山者的一件事。
Like, you see guys that are in the gym, I've spent a fair amount of time in gyms, and there's this phenotype where they've got these big, wide shoulders, a wide back, and the whole thing, and then they've got this little head and a little neck.
就像，你看那些在健身房里的人，我在健身房里呆了相当多的时间，他们有这样的表型，他们有又大又宽的肩膀，宽阔的背部，等等，然后他们有这个小头和小脖子。
And you go, "Well, their upper spot..." And they're not training their neck, and it looks crazy.
你会说，“好吧，他们的上位……”他们并没有训练他们的脖子，这看起来很疯狂。
Alex Honnold: Mm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I mean, I don't know if anyone's told them this, but they're, like-- You know, I walk by, and I'm like, "Don't skip neck day." You know?
安德鲁·休伯曼：我的意思是，我不知道是否有人告诉过他们这一点，但他们就像——你知道，我路过时，我说，“不要跳过颈部日。”你知道？
But when a body is out of balance like that, like if you saw a giant dog with a tiny head and neck, you'd be like, "That dog is crazy-looking."
但是当身体像那样失去平衡时，就像你看到一只头和脖子很小的大狗一样，你会说，“那只狗看起来很疯狂。”
Alex Honnold: I mean, is there a neck day?
亚历克斯·霍诺德：我的意思是，有颈部日吗？
Alex Honnold: There are a lot of dog breeds like that where you're like, "That dog..."
亚历克斯·霍诺德：有很多这样的狗品种，你会说，“那只狗......”
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Alex Honnold: You're like, "Hard to believe it came from a wolf."
亚历克斯·霍诺德：你会说，“很难相信它来自狼。”
Andrew Huberman: Exactly.
安德鲁·休伯曼：没错。
Alex Honnold: You're like, "That's funny."
亚历克斯·霍诺德：你会说，“这很有趣。”
Andrew Huberman: They're so inbred.
安德鲁·休伯曼：他们是如此近亲繁殖。
So, right, the healthiest version of something can move best.
所以，对的，最健康的东西可以最好地移动。
It's always fairly balanced.
它总是相当平衡的。
It seems like climbers are very balanced across their whole body.
看起来登山者的整个身体都非常平衡。
Alex Honnold: No, I think climbing is one of the healthiest sports and lifestyles, and also, it's so fun.
Alex Honnold：不，我认为攀岩是最健康的运动和生活方式之一，而且它非常有趣。
Like, going to a gym, you hang out with your friends.
就像，去健身房，你和朋友一起出去玩。
It's mostly really chill.
主要是真的很冷。
You mostly hang out and chitchat.
你们大部分时间都是出去闲逛、闲聊。
And like, if you do a gym session, you feel like you just went and hung out with your friends the whole time.
就像，如果你去健身房锻炼，你会觉得你一直在和朋友一起出去玩。
But then you also wind up fit and mobile and pretty strong.
但最终你也会变得健康、行动自如、而且非常强壮。
And so much of climbing is strength-to-weight.
攀登的大部分内容都是力量与重量的比值。
And so, you just wind up kind of lean and not like a big gym bro kind of thing.
所以，你最终会变得苗条，而不是像一个大健身房的兄弟那样。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Which I think is healthier as one ages, too.
Andrew Huberman：我认为随着年龄的增长，这也更健康。
Like, you want to maintain muscle and hold onto muscle, but there's all sorts of things associated with being heavily muscled where people end up with some kind of sleep apnea or pseudo sleep apnea because the neck is thick and it blocks the airwaves.
就像，你想保持肌肉并保持肌肉，但是有各种各样的事情与肌肉发达有关，人们最终会患上某种睡眠呼吸暂停或假性睡眠呼吸暂停，因为脖子很粗并且会阻挡电波。
And sleep apnea is one of the biggest health risks.
睡眠呼吸暂停是最大的健康风险之一。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: Hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: You know, people, not just heart attacks during sleep, but you're basically clogging all the blood flow and cleaning out of your brain that happens during sleep.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：你知道，人们，不仅仅是在睡眠期间心脏病发作，而且你基本上会堵塞睡眠期间发生的所有血液流动和大脑清理。
It's very, very common in bigger people, either because they're fat or heavily muscled.
这种情况在身材高大的人身上非常非常常见，要么是因为他们很胖，要么是因为肌肉发达。
Alex Honnold: Oh my.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：天哪。
Andrew Huberman: But it's one of the reasons a lot of bodybuilders die.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但这也是许多健美运动员死亡的原因之一。
Alex Honnold: I'm like, "Thank goodness I've never put on that much muscle."
亚历克斯·霍诺德：我想，“谢天谢地，我从来没有长过那么多肌肉。”
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, well, you can clearly generate a lot of force doing what you're doing.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，嗯，你显然可以在做你正在做的事情时产生很大的力量。
I'm curious how you deal with cramps when you're on the rock.
我很好奇当你在岩石上时你是如何应对抽筋的。
Like, you don't have-
就像，你没有-
Alex Honnold: No, you just don't really cramp.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：不，你只是没有真正抽筋。
Andrew Huberman: You don't cramp?
安德鲁·胡伯曼：你不抽筋吗？
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Yeah, no, really.
是的，不，真的。
I've never-- I mean, sometimes, you know, if you're trying to climb El Cap in a day, like an 18-hour ascent or something like climbing with a rope, but free ascents.
我从来没有——我的意思是，有时，如果你想在一天之内攀登酋长岩，比如 18 小时的攀登，或者类似用绳子攀爬的东西，但是是自由攀登。
Like, basically, if you're doing really long climbs, some of my friends sometimes will cramp because you're late into a post 12 hours into an athletic activity, you're just a little more likely.
基本上，如果你正在进行很长的攀登，我的一些朋友有时会抽筋，因为你在体育活动中迟到了 12 小时，你的可能性就更大了。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: But I never have.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：但我从来没有。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: Pretty much in general, all my athletic performance is always a steady decline, where I start and I'm doing great, and then over the next 10 to 48 hours, I just slowly get worse at a relatively linear rate.
Alex Honnold：总的来说，我所有的运动表现总是在稳步下降，一开始我做得很好，然后在接下来的 10 到 48 小时内，我只是以相对线性的速度慢慢变得更糟。
Andrew Huberman: Hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Alex Honnold: Except that normally, before sunrise of the next day, it starts to drop quite a bit more.
Alex Honnold：除了通常情况下，在第二天日出之前，它会开始下降很多。
You know, like as you start getting close to 24 hours, you're like, "I'm pretty fucking tired."
你知道，当你开始接近 24 小时时，你会说，“我真他妈累了。”
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，是的。
Alex Honnold: But then when the sun comes up, you've really jolt, like boost back up again.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：但是当太阳升起时，你真的会震动，就像再次升起一样。
And so then you're pretty good again.
那么你又恢复得很好了。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: You just keep on the linear decline.
Alex Honnold：你只是继续线性下降。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
So these are all-night climbs?
那么这些都是通宵攀登吗？
Alex Honnold: Yeah, I mean, I've done quite a number of things now that are like more than 24-hour outings, you know?
Alex Honnold：是的，我的意思是，我现在已经做了很多事情，比如超过 24 小时的外出，你知道吗？
I mean, that's typically climbing a mountain, sort of you're like hiking and climbing and then hiking some more and climbing some more, doing whatever.
我的意思是，这通常是爬山，有点像徒步旅行和攀岩，然后再徒步旅行和攀岩，做任何事情。
But yeah, generally, by 24 to 36 hours, you're just a worse version of what you used to be.
但是，是的，一般来说，到了 24 到 36 小时，你就会变得比以前更糟糕了。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Right.
安德鲁·休伯曼：对。
Alex Honnold: You know, you're just tired.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：你知道，你只是累了。
Andrew Huberman: Right.
安德鲁·休伯曼：对。
Andrew Huberman: And risk goes up when you're sleep-deprived.
Andrew Huberman：当你睡眠不足时，风险就会增加。
I mean, that's-
我的意思是，那就是——
Alex Honnold: Well, like where, yeah, judgment gets worse.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯，就像判断力变得更差的地方一样。
Reflexes get worse.
反应能力变得更差。
Like, everything is worse.
就像，一切都变得更糟。
Andrew Huberman: Sleep is key.
安德鲁·休伯曼：睡眠是关键。
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: But yeah, that circadian clock phenomenon where you've been up all night but then you start waking up again, it's pretty incredible.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但是，是的，生物钟现象，你整夜没睡，然后又开始醒来，这真是令人难以置信。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, as soon as you see the sun.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，只要你看到太阳。
Alex Honnold: I mean, also some of it with outdoor stuff is that just when you can see again, you know?
亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）：我的意思是，户外的一些东西就是当你能再次看到的时候，你知道吗？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: Because you've been going by headlamp for so long, and typically by that point, your headlamp is kind of dying, you just don't see that well.
亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）：因为你已经使用头灯太久了，通常到了那个时候，你的头灯就快要熄灭了，你只是看不太清楚。
And then the sun comes up, and you're like, "Thank God." And it's not cold anymore.
然后太阳升起，你就会说：“感谢上帝。”而且现在已经不冷了。
You're just like, "The sun." So you get this breath of fresh air, and then you just keep grinding.
你就像“太阳”。所以你呼吸新鲜空气，然后你就继续磨砺。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Have you ever had or do you have any kind of leanings towards those mystical experiences?
你曾经有过或者对那些神秘的经历有任何倾向吗？
Like, do you believe in any of that?
就像，你相信这些吗？
Alex Honnold: No, I've always been a fierce atheist.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：不，我一直是一个激烈的无神论者。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: Technically, I was raised Catholic, so I know religion a bit.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：从技术上讲，我是天主教徒长大的，所以我对宗教有一点了解。
And I've just never-- I've always been like, "You know, it just doesn't make any sense to me." I'm like, "Yeah, I'm strongly unreligious." Though I mean, I've been in so many beautiful places on Earth and had so many of what some would characterize as spiritual experiences, like feeling a oneness with nature, like a connection, or just awe-inspiring beauty when you're just somewhere, and you look out, and you're like, "Oh, the universe is so incredible.
我从来没有——我一直都是这样的，“你知道，这对我来说没有任何意义。”我想，“是的，我非常不信教。”不过我的意思是，我去过地球上很多美丽的地方，经历过很多被一些人称为精神体验的东西，比如感受到与自然的一体性，比如一种联系，或者当你在某个地方，向外看时，你会想，“哦，宇宙是如此不可思议。
The world is a magical place." So I'm certainly open to general spiritualism, I suppose, or you know-- But, no, I'm very opposed to organized religion basically.
世界是一个神奇的地方。”所以我想，我当然对一般的唯灵论持开放态度，或者你知道——但是，不，我基本上非常反对有组织的宗教。
Andrew Huberman: Biology is awe-inspiring.
Andrew Huberman：生物学是令人敬畏的。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, well, that's the thing is, I think there's enough wonder in the world and in the universe without adding all the layers of dogma, basically.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，嗯，事情就是这样，我认为世界和宇宙中有足够的奇迹，基本上不需要添加所有层面的教条。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Alex Honnold: Like, all the weird things that you don't really need to believe.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：就像，所有你不需要相信的奇怪的事情。
Andrew Huberman: I can't help but tell you this because I find it fascinating, and I think you might find it interesting.
Andrew Huberman：我忍不住要告诉你这一点，因为我觉得它很有趣，而且我想你可能也会觉得有趣。
If not, then forgive me.
如果没有，那就原谅我吧。
Speaking of Berkeley, there was a laboratory at Berkeley that wanted to understand how geckos could walk up walls.
说到伯克利，伯克利有一个实验室想要了解壁虎如何爬墙。
Alex Honnold: Hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And for a long time, it was thought that it was, like, suction of some sort.
安德鲁·休伯曼：很长一段时间，人们认为这是某种吸力。
But then turns out they could do it in a vacuum, so it means that it can't be suction.
但事实证明他们可以在真空中做到这一点，所以这意味着它不能被抽吸。
Alex Honnold: Hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: It turns out they have these little paddles on their little fingertips.
安德鲁·休伯曼：原来他们的小指尖上有这些小桨。
Alex Honnold: Hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And they can push those pedals.
Andrew Huberman：他们可以推动这些踏板。
They're organized sort of like feathers.
它们的组织方式有点像羽毛。
They can push them so close to the surface that they're climbing that they use what are called van der Waal forces, which is the exchange of molecules between the surface and those pedals, and they're making and breaking those van der Waal forces as they climb.
他们可以将踏板推得离地面如此之近，以至于他们在攀爬时使用了所谓的范德华力，这是表面和踏板之间的分子交换，他们在攀爬时产生和破坏这些范德华力。
Alex Honnold: Hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯。
Alex Honnold: Really is a Spider-Man.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：真的是蜘蛛侠。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Alex Honnold: It's like magical sticking.
Alex Honnold：这就像神奇的粘贴。
Andrew Huberman: And so as they climb, they're exchanging molecules with the surface they're climbing, which I find absolutely amazing.
Andrew Huberman：因此，当它们攀爬时，它们会与攀爬表面交换分子，我觉得这绝对令人惊奇。
I realize that's not how you're climbing, but-
我意识到这不是你攀登的方式，但是-
Alex Honnold: That's cool.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：那很酷。
Alex Honnold: Hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯。
Alex Honnold: Well, I'm sweating all over the wall, so it's kind of the same idea, yeah.
Alex Honnold：嗯，我满头大汗，所以这是一样的想法，是的。
Andrew Huberman: There you go.
安德鲁·休伯曼： 就这样。
Right, right.
对，对。
Alex Honnold: It's like, yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：就像，是的。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, and I'm leaving skin behind.
Alex Honnold：是的，我要留下皮肤。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Alex Honnold: You're like, "Oh, my tips."
亚历克斯·霍诺德：你会说，“哦，我的建议。”
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Alex Honnold: "It hurts." You know, so it's-
亚历克斯·霍诺德：“很痛。”你知道，所以它是——
Andrew Huberman: Well, you may not feel a kinship to them, but I have a feeling they feel a kinship to you because they are world-class climbers.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯，你可能不会觉得与他们有血缘关系，但我有一种感觉，他们与你有血缘关系，因为他们是世界级的登山者。
And I just find it amazing that they've evolved some way to literally exchange molecules.
我只是发现它们已经进化出某种方式来真正交换分子，这真是太神奇了。
I mean, you spend a lot of time on the rock.
我的意思是，你花了很多时间在岩石上。
I'm sure that you're carrying some granite in you by now.
我确信你现在内心已经有了一些花岗岩。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，是的，当然，当然。
No, that's cool.
不，那很酷。
I mean, you see a lot of creatures on walls like that, you know?
我的意思是，你在墙上看到很多这样的生物，你知道吗？
You see little frogs wandering up and down.
你会看到小青蛙在上面走来走去。
I mean, even something like El Capitan looks like a 3,000-foot solid cliff.
我的意思是，即使像 El Capitan 这样的东西看起来也像是 3,000 英尺高的坚固悬崖。
There are rodents running up and down the cracks.
有啮齿动物在裂缝中爬来爬去。
There are frogs in there.
里面有青蛙。
There are all kinds of birds.
各种鸟都有。
There are bats.
有蝙蝠。
Alex Honnold: It's like you see all these creatures roaming around, and you're just kind of like, "Oh, they're just living.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：就像你看到所有这些生物在周围漫游，你就会想，“哦，它们只是活着。
They're just up here doing their thing." And climbing is so relatively hard for humans, and then you're up there, and it's just all part of the natural environment for all the other creatures.
他们只是在这里做他们的事情。”攀登对于人类来说相对困难，但当你到达那里时，对于所有其他生物来说，这只是自然环境的一部分。
Andrew Huberman: I didn't realize there were frogs up there.
Andrew Huberman：我没有意识到上面有青蛙。
I've seen birds go by.
我见过鸟儿飞过。
I think there were a couple of clips in "Free Solo" where birds go by.
我认为“Free Solo”中有几个片段是鸟儿经过的。
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Alex Honnold: Yeah, they live in all the cracks, so often when you put your hands in, birds will run down your arm and fly out of the cracks and things like that.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，它们生活在所有的裂缝里，所以通常当你把手伸进去时，鸟儿会顺着你的手臂跑下来，从裂缝里飞出来，诸如此类。
And you're like, "Whoa."
你会说，“哇。”
Andrew Huberman: Is it startling?
安德鲁·休伯曼：这令人震惊吗？
Alex Honnold: Yeah, it's startling.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的，这令人震惊。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Alex Honnold: Well, I mean, it's very startling the first time and then less startling the subsequent times.
亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）：嗯，我的意思是，第一次非常令人吃惊，但随后的次数就不那么令人吃惊了。
But you're always kind of like, "Oh, wow, a swift just ran down my arm."
但你总是会说，“哦，哇，一只雨燕刚刚从我的手臂上跑下来。”
Andrew Huberman: That's wild.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这太疯狂了。
Alex Honnold: And I was like, "It's cool."
亚历克斯·霍诺德：我当时想，“这很酷。”
Andrew Huberman: Well, Alex, you've inspired and continue to inspire so many people, and I think you hit the nail on the head when you said, "It's the effort involved." You know, I think that many people might think it's the summiting and standing on top of the rock, and those are moments that, thanks to you, we've been fortunate enough to share and experience, you know, indirectly.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯，亚历克斯，你已经激励并将继续激励很多人，我认为当你说“这就是所涉及的努力”时，你击中了要害。你知道，我认为很多人可能认为这是登顶并站在岩石顶上，而这些时刻，感谢你，我们有幸能够间接地分享和经历。
Andrew Huberman: But clearly it's the effort involved, and I actually think that's why people are so intrigued by what you do, in addition to the fact that it's in beautiful places and incredibly high risk, high consequence.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但显然这是所涉及的努力，我实际上认为这就是为什么人们对你所做的事情如此感兴趣，除了它在美丽的地方和令人难以置信的高风险、高后果这一事实之外。
It's so clear that you're regimented and that you love what you do and that you put a ton of effort into it.
很明显，你受到严格控制，热爱自己所做的事情，并且付出了巨大的努力。
Alex Honnold: Mm-hmm.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And the way you describe climbing with your friends, I think, is the best hook sales pitch for climbing ever.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：我认为，你描述与朋友一起攀岩的方式是有史以来最好的攀岩钩销售宣传。
Like, hanging out with your friends, talking, and getting better and physically healthier, and it puts you in a place to go have bigger adventures and experience life more richly.
比如，和朋友一起出去玩、聊天、变得更好、身体更健康，这会让你有机会去经历更大的冒险，更丰富地体验生活。
Andrew Huberman: Let's also get you back sometime after this next big feat.
Andrew Huberman：在下一个伟大的壮举之后，我们也让您回来。
We can't talk too much about it, so...
我们不能谈论太多，所以...
Alex Honnold: I'm sure it'll be amazing.
Alex Honnold：我相信这会很棒。
Andrew Huberman: Awesome.
安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。
Alex Honnold: Yeah.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: All right.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
Well, we'll see you after that climb.
好吧，我们爬完山后再见。
Alex Honnold: Cool.
亚历克斯·霍诺德：酷。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Andrew Huberman: Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Alex Honnold.
Andrew Huberman：感谢您参加今天与 Alex Honnold 的讨论。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the Follow button on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的“关注”按钮来关注播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review, and you can now leave us comments on both Spotify and Apple.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们留下五星级的评论，现在您可以给我们留下关于 Spotify 和 Apple 的评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
Andrew Huberman: If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast, or guests, or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
Andrew Huberman：如果您对我有任何疑问，或者对播客、嘉宾或您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑的主题有意见，请将这些内容放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
Andrew Huberman: For those of you who haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
安德鲁·休伯曼：对于那些还没有听说过的人，我有一本新书即将出版。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience, and it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这是我花了五年多时间编写的一本书，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验，涵盖了从睡眠、锻炼到压力控制、与注意力和动机相关的各个方面的方案。
And of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
当然，我还为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by pre-sale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There, you can find links to various vendors.
在那里，您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Andrew Huberman: Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." And if you're not already following me on social media, I am HubermanLab on all social media platforms.
安德鲁·休伯曼：同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 HubermanLab。
So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlap with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。
Again, it's HubermanLab on all social media platforms.
同样，所有社交媒体平台上都是 HubermanLab。
Andrew Huberman: And if you haven't already subscribed to our "Neural Network Newsletter," the "Neural Network Newsletter" is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, and deliberate cold exposure.
Andrew Huberman：如果您还没有订阅我们的“神经网络时事通讯”，那么“神经网络时事通讯”是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺和故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available at completely zero cost.
所有这些都可以完全零成本获得。
Andrew Huberman: You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email.
Andrew Huberman：您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件即可。
And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Alex Honnold.
再次感谢您参加今天与 Alex Honnold 的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。