How to Rewire Your Brain & Learn Faster | Dr. Michael Kilgard
Andrew Huberman: Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
Andrew Huberman：欢迎来到 Huberman 实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
Andrew Huberman: I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，我是斯坦福大学医学院的神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. Michael Kilgard.
今天我的客人是迈克尔·基尔加德博士。
Dr. Michael Kilgard is a professor at the University of Texas at Dallas, and he is one of the world's leading experts in neuroplasticity, which is the brain's ability to change in response to experience.
迈克尔·基尔加德博士是德克萨斯大学达拉斯分校的教授，他是神经可塑性方面世界领先的专家之一，神经可塑性是大脑根据经验而变化的能力。
Andrew Huberman: Since the beginning of the field of neuroscience, meaning for well over 100 years, it was understood that the young brain can change.
Andrew Huberman：自从神经科学领域诞生以来，也就是一百多年来，人们就知道年轻的大脑是可以改变的。
Kids can learn things.
孩子们可以学到东西。
They can learn languages, new skills.
他们可以学习语言、新技能。
And young adults can learn.
年轻人可以学习。
But that the adult brain was less capable of learning.
但成人大脑的学习能力较差。
Then in the late '90s, it was Dr. Kilgard, in collaboration with his colleagues, that discovered that indeed, the adult brain can change massively if the right conditions are set.
然后在 20 世纪 90 年代末，基尔加德博士与他的同事合作发现，如果设定了正确的条件，成人的大脑确实可以发生巨大的变化。
Andrew Huberman: His work showed that if specific neuromodulators; meaning acetylcholine, norepinephrine, serotonin, or dopamine, are triggered to be released in the adult brain, you can achieve massive rewiring of brain circuits and learning, even as an adult.
Andrew Huberman：他的工作表明，如果特定的神经调节剂；这意味着乙酰胆碱、去甲肾上腺素、血清素或多巴胺被触发在成人大脑中释放，即使作为成年人，您也可以实现大脑回路和学习的大规模重新布线。
This opened up an entire new field within neuroscience, and of course, has profound implications for health and disease.
这在神经科学领域开辟了一个全新的领域，当然，对健康和疾病具有深远的影响。
It's also completely changed the way that we think about learning, longevity, and brain health.
它还彻底改变了我们对学习、长寿和大脑健康的看法。
More recently, Dr. Kilgard's research has focused on vagus nerve stimulation to precisely control the timing of neuromodulator release.
最近，基尔加德博士的研究重点是迷走神经刺激，以精确控制神经调节剂释放的时间。
Andrew Huberman: As you may know, the vagus nerve connects the body with the brain, and the brain with the body, and by stimulating a particular branch of the vagus nerve pathway, his laboratory has shown that people can overcome debilitating conditions such as tinnitus, stroke, and even restore mobility to people who have suffered spinal cord injuries.
安德鲁·休伯曼：正如你所知，迷走神经将身体与大脑、大脑与身体连接起来，通过刺激迷走神经通路的特定分支，他的实验室表明，人们可以克服耳鸣、中风等衰弱症状，甚至可以让脊髓损伤的人恢复活动能力。
During today's episode, we discuss the specific actionable strategies that you or anyone can use to rewire your brain at any stage of life.
在今天的节目中，我们将讨论您或任何人可以在人生任何阶段用来重新连接大脑的具体可行策略。
Andrew Huberman: So, as you'll soon see, Dr. Kilgard has an exceptionally clear and practical understanding of how to apply what we know about neuroplasticity, so that you can learn better and improve your brain health.
Andrew Huberman：所以，正如您很快就会看到的那样，Kilgard 博士对于如何应用我们对神经可塑性的了解有非常清晰和实用的理解，以便您可以更好地学习并改善您的大脑健康。
Andrew Huberman: Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
Andrew Huberman：在我们开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however; part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，事实确实如此；我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本信息。
In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。
Andrew Huberman: I have a brief announcement to make about my upcoming book, 'Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body.' I've completed the book now, several times, and yet, it's not quite ready for release, and I'll tell you why.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我有一个关于我即将出版的书《协议：人体操作手册》的简短公告。我现在已经完成了这本书，好几次了，但是，它还没有完全准备好发布，我会告诉你原因。
Andrew Huberman: Some years ago, somebody I highly respect in the research science field, that I was working with on a project, said to us as a group, "If you have the opportunity to make something better, you do it." Now, I realize that runs counter to what we all so often hear, which is, "Never let perfect get in the way of completed." But I must say, when it comes to providing the public health protocols, I absolutely insist that you have the most up-to-date science and information in the 'Protocols' book.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：几年前，一位我在研究科学领域非常尊敬的人，与我一起参与一个项目，对我们团队说：“如果你有机会做得更好，你就去做。”现在，我意识到这与我们经常听到的“永远不要让完美妨碍完成”背道而驰。但我必须说，在提供公共卫生方案时，我绝对坚持要求您在“方案”书中拥有最新的科学和信息。
Andrew Huberman: And so that's the reason why I've decided to go through and basically revise each and every chapter, adding some things based on new research, and improving the protocols overall.
Andrew Huberman：这就是为什么我决定仔细阅读并基本上修改每一章，根据新研究添加一些内容，并整体改进协议的原因。
I strongly feel that's my obligation to the data, and to all of you.
我强烈地感到这是我对数据以及对你们所有人的义务。
I confess, part of the delay is also because I've decided to do all the illustrations for the book myself.
我承认，延迟的部分原因也是因为我决定自己为这本书绘制所有插图。
As a consequence, my book is now going to be released in September 2026.
因此，我的书将于 2026 年 9 月发行。
If you'd like to pre-order the book, it's available in English and other languages, and yes, it will be available in audio form.
如果您想预订这本书，它有英语和其他语言版本，是的，它将以音频形式提供。
If you'd like to pre-order, go to protocolsbook.com.
如果您想预订，请访问protocolbook.com。
Andrew Huberman: Thank you for your patience.
安德鲁·休伯曼：感谢您的耐心等待。
I'm excited to share the book with you next year.
我很高兴明年与您分享这本书。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Michael Kilgard.
现在我与迈克尔·基尔加德博士进行了讨论。
Andrew Huberman: Dr. Michael Kilgard, welcome.
安德鲁·休伯曼：迈克尔·基尔加德博士，欢迎。
Michael Kilgard: Nice to be here.
迈克尔·基尔加德：很高兴来到这里。
Andrew Huberman: You and I both share a fascination with neuroplasticity, the ability for our nervous system to change itself for better or worse.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你和我都对神经可塑性着迷，神经可塑性是我们的神经系统自我改变的能力，无论是好是坏。
Andrew Huberman: So, to start off, let's just talk about plasticity, what it is, how plasticity in childhood differs from plasticity in adulthood.
安德鲁·休伯曼：首先，我们来谈谈可塑性，它是什么，童年的可塑性与成年的可塑性有何不同。
I know how I think about these topics.
我知道我如何看待这些话题。
I'd love to know how you think about neuroplasticity, and why you've essentially devoted your professional life to studying it.
我很想知道您如何看待神经可塑性，以及为什么您将自己的职业生涯投入到研究它上。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
I mean, I don't love the word.
我的意思是，我不喜欢这个词。
'Plastic' makes it seem like something artificial and uninteresting.
“塑料”让它看起来像是人造的、无趣的东西。
But, the idea that the brain can change is a new idea.
但是，大脑可以改变的想法是一个新想法。
We used to think everything was hardwired, and you are the way they are, and nothing can change.
我们曾经认为一切都是硬连线的，你就是他们的样子，没有什么可以改变。
Michael Kilgard: Now we know that you're making new connections every day, every time you learn something new.
迈克尔·基尔加德：现在我们知道，每当你学到新东西时，你每天都会建立新的联系。
And that change in our way of thinking about things has implications up and down the aisle on how we interact, and everything we do.
我们思考事物方式的这种变化对我们的互动方式以及我们所做的一切都会产生影响。
The science of it is so exciting.
它的科学原理是如此令人兴奋。
Michael Kilgard: The types of experiments that have been done, the ways that you can literally see these new connections.
迈克尔·基尔加德：已经完成的实验类型，你可以从字面上看到这些新联系的方式。
Our forefathers, 100 years ago, could only look at dead tissue and imagine all the changes and excitement that was going on, Ramon y Cajal and others.
100 年前，我们的祖先拉蒙·卡哈尔 (Ramon y Cajal) 等人只能看着死去的组织，想象正在发生的所有变化和兴奋。
Michael Kilgard: But now we can, real time, watch these new connections and imagine that there's not hundreds of them, there's not thousands of them, there's not millions of them, there's not billions, but there's trillions of new connections every second of your day; are trying to decide, should I strengthen this one, should I weaken this one, or should I leave them the same?
迈克尔·基尔加德：但现在我们可以实时观察这些新连接，并想象它们不是数百个、不是数千个、不是数百万个、不是数十亿个，而是每天每秒都有数万亿个新连接；正在尝试决定，我应该加强这一点，我应该削弱这一点，还是应该保持不变？
Michael Kilgard: And that idea that your brain is as active as you feel is so different than what we were told.
迈克尔·基尔加德：大脑的活跃程度取决于你的感觉，这一想法与我们所听到的非常不同。
We were told, "You've got this brain.
我们被告知，“你有这个大脑。
It's very dangerous.
这是非常危险的。
You should wear a helmet, and you should not mess with it." And the fact that it's alive and moving, to me, is just much more consistent with my experience with my own inner life, and interacting with other people.
你应该戴头盔，不应该乱动它。”事实上，对我来说，它是活生生的、令人感动的，这与我对自己内心生活以及与其他人互动的体验更加一致。
Michael Kilgard: So, the fact that the science matches the everyday experience, I think is one of the most enlightening parts of those experiments.
迈克尔·基尔加德：所以，我认为科学与日常经验相匹配的事实是这些实验中最具启发性的部分之一。
Andrew Huberman: So, when you think about developmental plasticity, which would have been from birth up to about age 25, is what we always hear.
Andrew Huberman：所以，当你想到发育可塑性时，即从出生到 25 岁左右，我们总是听到这样的说法。
"Oh, you know, up until age 25, the brain is ultra-plastic, and then after 25, it's much harder to change, but it can be done." You have kids.
“哦，你知道，直到25岁，大脑都是超可塑的，25岁之后，改变就困难得多，但这是可以做到的。”你有孩子。
When you were raising your kids, given what you know about neuroplasticity, what were some of the thoughts going on in your mind about things that you should do or shouldn't do?
当您抚养孩子时，根据您对神经可塑性的了解，您脑海中对于应该做或不应该做的事情有哪些想法？
Andrew Huberman: I know you're not giving parenting instructions, but I think there are many parents out there, all of us were children once, or perhaps still are, and are curious.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我知道你没有给出育儿指导，但我认为有很多父母，我们所有人都曾经是孩子，或者也许仍然是孩子，并且很好奇。
How does a neuroscientist who works on neuroplasticity think about learning in general, and also just passive exposure to life?
研究神经可塑性的神经科学家如何看待一般学习以及被动接触生活？
Because as a child, every day is new learning.
因为作为一个孩子，每一天都是新的学习。
Michael Kilgard: I mean, they always tell you, "Don't sweat the small stuff," and then you learn every little thing matters, and you start sweating the small stuff.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我的意思是，他们总是告诉你，“不要为小事操心”，然后你就会知道每件小事都很重要，你就开始为小事操心。
You start realizing that the kinds of mobile you got matters.
您开始意识到您拥有的手机类型很重要。
That it's interesting.
这很有趣。
We had a mobile, and the mobile would go around in a circle, and it was just boring.
我们有一部手机，手机会绕一圈，这很无聊。
I thought it was uninteresting, and so I'd move it so that it would bump into something and do something a little more interesting from time to time.
我觉得它没什么意思，所以我会移动它，让它时不时地碰到一些东西，做一些更有趣的事情。
My kids spent a lot of time looking out into the natural world, so there were birds flying and coming and going in not-predictable kinds of patterns, and again, I tried to avoid some TV.
我的孩子们花了很多时间观察自然世界，所以鸟儿以不可预测的方式飞来飞去，我再次试图避免看电视。
Michael Kilgard: But the idea that; we're kind of in a hurry.
迈克尔·基尔加德：但是这个想法；我们有点着急。
You've got to hook up all these neurons.
你必须连接所有这些神经元。
Being an adult's going to happen fast, and you've got trillions of connections to make.
成年的过程很快，你需要建立数万亿的联系。
Every experience is contributing to that.
每一次经历都为此做出了贡献。
So, bedtime stories, and songs, and walks in the park are all making those changes.
因此，睡前故事、歌曲和公园散步都在带来这些改变。
That's surprising.
这太令人惊讶了。
It's surprising that all that stuff matters.
令人惊讶的是所有这些事情都很重要。
But it does.
但确实如此。
Michael Kilgard: And so, from my point of view, the fact that the young brain is a sponge, and that every little background sound, little clicking sound, road noise, all those things, have the potential to impact the way the brain is wired; is a cautionary tale.
迈克尔·基尔加德：因此，从我的角度来看，年轻的大脑是一块海绵，每一个微小的背景声音、微小的咔哒声、道路噪音，所有这些东西，都有可能影响大脑的连接方式；这是一个警示故事。
It makes you worried about having the wrong sounds in the wrong place.
它让您担心在错误的地方发出错误的声音。
But, of course, you don't really know exactly what the best sounds are going to be, the best sights, the best friendships, and all the rest.
但是，当然，你并不真正知道最好的声音、最好的景色、最好的友谊以及其他所有的一切。
Michael Kilgard: So, neuroplasticity is a gift to all of us, and it makes the point that the details matter.
迈克尔·基尔加德：所以，神经可塑性是给我们所有人的一份礼物，它表明细节很重要。
But it also makes the point that there's lots of details, lots and lots of experiences.
但这也表明有很多细节、很多很多的经验。
No one formative experience is going to ruin some kid's life.
没有任何一种形成性经历会毁掉孩子的一生。
And I think that's a little bit relieving as well.
我认为这也让人松了一口气。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, there's plasticity in both directions, I suppose.
Andrew Huberman：是的，我认为两个方向都具有可塑性。
You can wire things in one direction, and if you don't like it, or if your parents don't like it, you can wire it back in another direction.
您可以沿一个方向连接东西，如果您不喜欢它，或者如果您的父母不喜欢它，您可以将其连接到另一个方向。
Although, as we both know, there's a little bit of an asymmetry to that.
不过，正如我们都知道的那样，这存在一点不对称。
It's kind of easier to get negative experiences wired into the brain, and a little bit harder, or a lot harder as the case may be, to undo those.
将负面经历植入大脑比较容易，但要消除这些经历则有点困难，或者更困难（视情况而定）。
So, I guess it was the early '90s when we heard a lot about the so-called first six years.
所以，我猜是在 90 年代初期，我们听到了很多关于所谓的前六年的事情。
Andrew Huberman: There was this emphasis on zero to six years of age, as being so critical.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：人们对零到六岁的年龄非常重视，因为这一点非常关键。
And this had parents who, understandably, were interested and concerned with their kids having the most knowledge, the most capability in life, the best life, it had parents playing classical music to kids while they were asleep.
可以理解的是，父母对自己的孩子拥有最多的知识、最有能力、最好的生活感兴趣并关心他们的孩子，父母在孩子睡觉时给他们播放古典音乐。
It had them doing multiple sports.
它让他们做多种运动。
There was this idea that you have six years to cram everything in there.
有这样的想法，你有六年的时间把所有东西都塞进去。
Andrew Huberman: I think we now understand that's not the case, that those first six years are critical, but there's a long window for plasticity.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为我们现在明白情况并非如此，前六年至关重要，但可塑性还有很长的一段时间。
Would you agree?
你同意吗？
Michael Kilgard: Absolutely.
迈克尔·基尔加德：当然。
No, I mean, I think we worry about doors slamming shut.
不，我的意思是，我认为我们担心门会砰地关上。
We worry about every little sight being the thing, that's going to define a child for the rest of their lives, and that's just not the case, right?
我们担心每一个小景象都会决定孩子的余生，但事实并非如此，对吧？
Lots and lots of hours.
很多很多个小时。
We always talk about 10,000 hours to be good at anything, and you realize you get a lot of 10,000 hours.
我们总是谈论 10,000 小时才能擅长任何事情，而你会意识到你得到了很多 10,000 小时。
I mean, you really do.
我的意思是，你确实这么做了。
And not just your language abilities.
不仅仅是你的语言能力。
Each person knows 100,000 words.
每个人认识10万个单词。
Imagine.
想象。
You don't have to sit and teach the kids every little word.
您不必坐下来教孩子们每一个小单词。
They're going to pick them up.
他们要去接他们。
Michael Kilgard: They're just in an environment, and 100,000 is a lot of words to imagine, knowing their definitions, knowing their meanings, and all the rest.
Michael Kilgard：他们只是在一个环境中，100,000 个单词需要想象，知道它们的定义，知道它们的含义，等等。
And the same thing of finger movements.
手指的动作也是如此。
Again, whether they're going to be a violin player, or a soccer player, all the dexterous movements that have to go with that.
再说一遍，无论他们是要成为小提琴手还是足球运动员，所有灵巧的动作都必须与之相伴。
We, as coaches and parents, try to train that, but really the kid is training themselves.
作为教练和家长，我们试图训练这一点，但实际上孩子正在训练自己。
They're figuring out how to do all that by practicing, seeing what works and what doesn't work.
他们正在通过练习找出如何做到这一切，看看什么有效，什么无效。
We can just set an environment where that's possible and where they can succeed and not quit.
我们可以设置一个环境，使之成为可能，让他们能够成功而不放弃。
That's really one of the big challenges.
这确实是巨大的挑战之一。
Michael Kilgard: Like I said, a kid gets exposed to food, then gets sick, and now their brain has figured out that food might be poison.
迈克尔·基尔加德：就像我说的，一个孩子接触到食物，然后生病了，现在他们的大脑已经发现食物可能有毒。
But it might be wrong, and they might end up with a plastic event in their brain that turns off a pathway for a long period of time, and it can really be hard to undo that kind of work.
但这可能是错误的，他们最终可能会在大脑中发生可塑性事件，从而在很长一段时间内关闭一条通路，而且这种工作确实很难撤销。
Andrew Huberman: I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, 'Eight Sleep'.
Andrew Huberman：我想稍微休息一下，并向我们的赞助商“Eight Sleep”表示感谢。
Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep-tracking capacity.
八睡眠公司生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。
One of the best ways to ensure a great night's sleep is to make sure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct.
确保一夜好眠的最佳方法之一是确保睡眠环境的温度正确。
And that's because in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees.
这是因为为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的体温实际上必须下降约一到三度。
And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees.
为了醒来时感觉神清气爽、精力充沛，您的体温实际上必须升高约一到三度。
Andrew Huberman: Eight Sleep automatically regulates the temperature of your bed throughout the night according to your unique needs.
Andrew Huberman：Eight Sleep 会根据您的独特需求自动调节整个晚上的床温。
'Eight Sleep' has just launched their latest model, the Pod 5, and the Pod 5 has several new important features.
“Eight Sleep”刚刚推出了他们的最新型号 Pod 5，Pod 5 有几个新的重要功能。
One of these new features is called Auto Pilot.
这些新功能之一称为自动驾驶仪。
Auto Pilot is an AI engine that learns your sleep patterns to adjust the temperature of your sleeping environment across different sleep stages.
Auto Pilot 是一款人工智能引擎，可以学习您的睡眠模式，从而调整不同睡眠阶段的睡眠环境温度。
It also elevates your head if you're snoring, and it makes other shifts to optimize your sleep.
如果您打鼾，它还会抬高您的头部，并进行其他转换以优化您的睡眠。
Andrew Huberman: The base on the Pod 5 also has an integrated speaker that syncs to the Eight Sleep app and can play audio to support relaxation and recovery.
Andrew Huberman：Pod 5 的底座还配有一个集成扬声器，可与八睡眠应用程序同步，并可以播放音频以支持放松和恢复。
The audio catalog includes several NSDR, non-sleep deep rest scripts that I worked on with Eight Sleep to record.
音频目录包括几个 NSDR、非睡眠深度休息脚本，是我与“八睡眠”合作录制的。
If you're not familiar, NSDR involves listening to an audio script that walks you through a deep body relaxation, combined with some very simple breathing exercises.
如果您不熟悉，NSDR 包括聆听音频脚本，引导您进行深度身体放松，并结合一些非常简单的呼吸练习。
It's an extremely powerful tool that anyone can benefit from the first time and every time.
这是一个极其强大的工具，任何人第一次和每次都可以从中受益。
Andrew Huberman: If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, go to EightSleep.com/huberman to get up to $350 off the new 'Pod 5'.
Andrew Huberman：如果您想尝试“Eight Sleep”，请访问EightSleep.com/huberman，新“Pod 5”可享受高达 350 美元的优惠。
Eight Sleep ships to many countries worldwide, including Mexico and the UAE.
八号睡眠船运往世界各地的许多国家，包括墨西哥和阿联酋。
Again, that's EightSleep.com/huberman to save up to $350.
同样，EightSleep.com/huberman 最多可节省 350 美元。
Andrew Huberman: Today's episode is also brought to us by 'Wealthfront'.
Andrew Huberman：今天的节目也是由“Wealthfront”为我们带来的。
I've been using Wealthfront for my savings and my investing for nearly a decade, and I absolutely love it.
近十年来，我一直使用 Wealthfront 进行储蓄和投资，我非常喜欢它。
At the start of every year, I set new goals, and one of my goals for 2025 is to focus on saving money.
每年年初，我都会设定新的目标，2025 年的目标之一就是专注于省钱。
Andrew Huberman: Since I have Wealthfront, I'll keep that savings in my Wealthfront cash account where I'm able to earn 4% annual percentage yield on my deposits, and you can as well.
Andrew Huberman：由于我拥有 Wealthfront，我会将这笔储蓄保留在我的 Wealthfront 现金账户中，这样我就可以通过存款赚取 4% 的年收益率，您也可以。
With 'Wealthfront', you can earn 4% APY on your cash from partner banks until you're ready to either spend that money or invest it.
通过“Wealthfront”，您可以从合作银行赚取 4% 的现金年化收益，直到您准备好花掉这些钱或进行投资。
With Wealthfront, you also get free instant withdrawals to eligible accounts every day, even on weekends and holidays.
通过Wealthfront，您还可以每天免费即时提款到符合条件的账户，即使在周末和节假日也是如此。
The 4% APY is not a promotional rate, and there's no limit to what you can deposit and earn.
4% 年利率并非促销利率，您可以存款和赚取的金额没有限制。
Andrew Huberman: And you can even get protection for up to $8 million through FDIC insurance, provided through Wealthfront's partner banks.
Andrew Huberman：您甚至可以通过 Wealthfront 合作银行提供的 FDIC 保险获得高达 800 万美元的保护。
Wealthfront gives you free instant withdrawals, where it takes just minutes to transfer your money to eligible external accounts.
Wealthfront 为您提供免费即时提款，只需几分钟即可将您的资金转入符合条件的外部账户。
It also takes just minutes to transfer your cash from the cash account to any of Wealthfront's automated investment accounts when you're ready to invest.
当您准备好投资时，只需几分钟即可将现金从现金账户转移到 Wealthfront 的任何自动投资账户。
There are already a million people using Wealthfront to save more, earn more, and build long-term wealth.
已有一百万人使用 Wealthfront 来储蓄更多、赚取更多并建立长期财富。
Earn 4% APY on your cash today.
今天就用现金赚取 4% 年化收益。
Andrew Huberman: If you'd like to try Wealthfront, go to wealthfront.com/huberman to receive a free $50 bonus with a $500 deposit into your first cash account.
Andrew Huberman：如果您想尝试Wealthfront，请访问wealthfront.com/huberman，在您的第一个现金账户中存入500美元即可获得免费的50美元奖金。
That's wealthfront.com/huberman to get started now.
现在就开始吧：www.realityfront.com/huberman。
This has been a paid testimonial of Wealthfront.
这是 Wealthfront 的付费推荐。
Wealthfront Brokerage isn't a bank.
Wealthfront Brokerage 不是银行。
The APY is subject to change.
APY 可能会发生变化。
For more information, see the episode description.
有关更多信息，请参阅剧集描述。
Andrew Huberman: What are your thoughts about when a kid has a particular love for one activity, perhaps to the exclusion of everything else because time is limited?
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：当一个孩子特别喜欢一项活动，甚至可能因为时间有限而排除其他一切活动时，您有何想法？
Assuming that activity isn't outwardly destructive, like they're not harming themselves or others, it doesn't involve the use of, you know, chemical substances, that kind of thing.
假设这些活动没有表面上的破坏性，就像他们没有伤害自己或他人一样，它不涉及使用化学物质之类的东西。
But let's say a kid just loves to read, and unless forced not to, would just use every possible moment to read, or play video games, or do any number of different things; then the self-directed learning that they're doing, the plasticity, is being fed by these things that I know we're going to talk a lot about today, neuromodulators, right?
但是，假设一个孩子只是喜欢阅读，除非被迫不这样做，否则他会利用一切可能的时间来阅读，或玩电子游戏，或做许多不同的事情；然后他们正在做的自我导向学习，可塑性，是由这些我知道我们今天要讨论很多的东西，神经调节剂，对吧？
We know these as dopamine, norepinephrine, epinephrine, serotonin, acetylcholine.
我们知道它们是多巴胺、去甲肾上腺素、肾上腺素、血清素、乙酰胆碱。
These things amplify, in many cases, the activity of certain circuits.
在许多情况下，这些东西会放大某些电路的活动。
Andrew Huberman: Like, if one of your kids was doing something at, say, age 8, 9, 10, 12; was doing one thing, almost to the exclusion of everything else, when they had the opportunity to do something, like free time hits, they're doing that, would that excite or concern you in terms of what you know about plasticity?
Andrew Huberman：比如，如果你的一个孩子在 8、9、10、12 岁时做某事；正在做一件事，几乎排除其他一切，当他们有机会做某事时，比如空闲时间的热门歌曲，他们正在这样做，这会让你兴奋或担心你对可塑性的了解吗？
Michael Kilgard: My kids know that it would depend upon whether I viewed, in my judgmental nature, the experience as a real experience, an adventure, something that's happening, or an artificial or a fake one.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我的孩子们知道，这取决于我是否将这种经历视为真实的经历、冒险、正在发生的事情，或者是人造的或虚假的。
My concerns about video games and other things like that are these could be really detrimental, because they don't have the statistics of the natural world.
我对电子游戏和其他类似事物的担忧是，这些可能真的有害，因为它们没有自然世界的统计数据。
If you're engaged, as my daughter was, with people and you just want to hear people talking.
如果你像我女儿一样与人交往，而你只想听人说话。
She was infinitely fascinated by, "What are they talking about?
她无限着迷：“他们在说什么？
What are they thinking about?" And there was no end to her interest in people.
他们在想什么？”她对人的兴趣永无止境。
People are interesting.
人们很有趣。
People are complicated.
人很复杂。
Michael Kilgard: On the flip side, if you're talking about a video game, I won't name any particular one, where it's an artificial currency, where you're sort of constrained to be interested in it, similar to what would happen in Vegas where you'd say, "I'm going to let you win at first, so that you can get hooked on it, and then I'm going to adjust it," where you're being manipulated actively.
迈克尔·基尔加德：另一方面，如果你谈论的是电子游戏，我不会说出任何特定的游戏，它是一种人造货币，你有点被迫对它感兴趣，类似于在维加斯发生的情况，你会说，“我会让你一开始就赢，这样你就可以迷上它，然后我要调整它”，你会被积极操纵。
Most experiences kids are interested in, they're not being manipulated.
孩子们感兴趣的大多数经历都不是被操纵的。
It's a game.
这是一场游戏。
50% of the time you win, 50% of the time you lose; if you're playing football or soccer.
50%的时间你赢，50%的时间你输；如果你正在踢足球或踢足球。
But there are some experiences where someone is actively messing with you in a way that can be negative.
但在某些经历中，有人会以一种消极的方式积极地扰乱你。
Michael Kilgard: So, we would always distinguish between that.
迈克尔·基尔加德：所以，我们总是会区分这一点。
Kids would share they had this great experience on a video game, or a great video they saw, and I would just point out, "That wasn't an experience you actually had.
孩子们会分享他们在电子游戏中的精彩体验，或者他们看到的精彩视频，我只是指出，“那不是你真正拥有的体验。
That was an experience you watched online, or something else, or that was a video." And we just kept emphasizing that there's something different about real experiences.
那是你在网上观看的体验，或者其他东西，或者是视频。”我们只是不断强调真实体验是有不同的。
And for me, that's about the statistics.
对我来说，这就是统计数据。
That's about the pattern in the natural world.
这就是自然界的模式。
You're working the visual system.
你正在使用视觉系统。
There's spatial frequencies.
有空间频率。
There's distributions.
有分布。
There's a peripheral vision.
有余光。
In the auditory system, there's reverberations.
在听觉系统中，存在混响。
Michael Kilgard: There's all these things that you can remove, if you want to, and simplify the world down.
Michael Kilgard：如果你愿意的话，你可以删除所有这些东西，并简化世界。
But we evolved in an environment where there were risks.
但我们是在一个充满风险的环境中进化的。
There were opportunities.
有机会。
There were ways for us to explore our smell, our touch, our taste, and they were all integrated together.
我们有很多方法可以探索我们的气味、触觉、味觉，而且它们都整合在一起。
When they all get separated, and the touch doesn't have anything to do with the sound, and the sound doesn't have anything to do with the sight or the smell, there's a potential for them all to sort of drift off on their own and not be integrated in a way that I think is most helpful.
当它们全部分开时，触摸与声音没有任何关系，声音与视觉或气味没有任何关系，它们有可能会自行消失，而不会以我认为最有帮助的方式整合起来。
Michael Kilgard: So, for me, it was just, is it real?
迈克尔·基尔加德：所以，对我来说，这只是，这是真的吗？
Would my grandparents recognize this as a good way to spend a day?
我的祖父母会认为这是度过一天的好方法吗？
And if it wasn't, I'd at least take some time to think about whether or not there might be some negative consequences of that artificial environment.
如果不是，我至少会花一些时间考虑一下这种人工环境是否会产生一些负面后果。
Andrew Huberman: I think it's really interesting that you say certain experiences aren't really experiences because they don't include the full array, or as large an array of the, quote-unquote, 'statistics of the natural environment'.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为很有趣的是，你说某些体验并不是真正的体验，因为它们不包括完整的数组，或者大量的“自然环境统计数据”。
And I think for us as neuroscientists, we're used to using this language, statistics of the natural environment.
我认为对于我们神经科学家来说，我们习惯于使用这种语言，即自然环境的统计数据。
And you pointed this out, but I just want to go into this a little bit more deeply.
你指出了这一点，但我只想更深入地探讨这一点。
Andrew Huberman: You know, in a three-dimensional world like the one we're in now, sitting across the table having a conversation, or people listening to this and watching it, or both, there's a lot of information that we're not aware of.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你知道，在像我们现在所处的三维世界中，坐在桌子对面进行对话，或者人们在听并观看它，或者两者兼而有之，有很多我们不知道的信息。
The depth information, motion information, lack of motion information, right?
深度信息，运动信息，缺少运动信息，对吧？
If I suddenly start waving my arms around, that's going to pop out because nothing else really is moving that much.
如果我突然开始挥舞手臂，那件事就会突然出现，因为没有其他东西能真正移动那么多。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I think people probably need to hear it from you in order to really appreciate how a developing brain is really a template for wiring all that capability in.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为人们可能需要听听你的说法，才能真正理解发育中的大脑如何真正成为连接所有能力的模板。
You know, this time from birth until about 25 is really when all the predictions about the world are being formed, and I think we hear so often about, "Okay, make sure they learn an instrument, play a sport, they're reading, maybe learn another language." By the way, learn another language.
你知道，从出生到 25 岁左右，这段时间实际上是对世界的所有预测正在形成的时期，我想我们经常听到这样的话：“好吧，确保他们学习一种乐器，参加一项运动，他们正在阅读，也许学习另一种语言。”顺便，再学一门语言。
You can learn other languages without an accent up until a particular age, and then it becomes very, very difficult.
你可以在没有口音的情况下学习其他语言，直到某个特定的年龄，然后它就变得非常非常困难。
I wish I had learned another language.
我希望我能学另一种语言。
That's why I say that.
这就是我这么说的原因。
Andrew Huberman: We hear about all the things that ought to make kids more, quote-unquote, 'functional adults' once they get to adulthood, but what you're describing is a pretty kind of like, low-level but foundational aspect to just building a brain that can do a lot of stuff, and that wants to forage for interesting real-world experiences as an adult.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我们听说过所有的事情都应该让孩子们在成年后成为“有功能的成年人”，但你所描述的是一个非常低层次但基础的方面，只是构建一个可以做很多事情的大脑，并且想要作为一个成年人寻找有趣的现实世界体验。
So, when you were raising your kids, did either of them like video games particularly?
那么，您在养育孩子的过程中，有没有特别喜欢电子游戏的呢？
Michael Kilgard: Yep.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yep?
安德鲁·休伯曼：是吗？
Michael Kilgard: My son liked video games.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我儿子喜欢电子游戏。
My daughter did not.
我女儿没有。
Andrew Huberman: Uh-huh.
安德鲁·休伯曼： 嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Michael Kilgard: It didn't end up becoming a significant problem, but it was certainly an interesting agility still.
Michael Kilgard：这最终并没有成为一个重大问题，但它无疑仍然是一个有趣的敏捷性。
You know, I grew up playing video games as well with one joystick, one button.
你知道，我从小就玩电子游戏，也用一根操纵杆、一个按钮。
Now, it's much more complicated and elaborate, and I appreciate the beauty of it.
现在，它变得更加复杂和精致，我欣赏它的美丽。
I appreciate the finesse, the dexterity, the complexity.
我欣赏这种技巧、灵巧和复杂性。
I think it's fantastic.
我认为这太棒了。
All the things they can do to be running through a complex environment, navigating a map, looking at a certain direction, walking out, watching out for low contrast threats, and prizes.
他们能做的所有事情都是在复杂的环境中奔跑、导航地图、看着某个方向、走出去、留意低对比度的威胁和奖品。
So, there's a richness to it that is just undeniable.
所以，它的丰富性是不可否认的。
It's really rewarding and satisfying.
这确实是一种收获和满足。
Michael Kilgard: The question is just how well does that generalize to other skills you might need in your life?
迈克尔·基尔加德：问题是这对你生活中可能需要的其他技能的推广效果如何？
How well prepared are you?
你准备得怎么样？
And are you able to turn that off at the end of the day, and go on to study for your tests, you know, do the dishes, mow the lawn, whatever else needs to be done?
你能在一天结束时关掉它，然后继续学习考试，洗碗，修剪草坪，或者其他需要做的事情吗？
And I think there are certain situations where it's really helpful, and there are certain situations where it's overblown.
我认为在某些情况下它确实很有帮助，但在某些情况下它却被夸大了。
And the same is true of reading.
阅读也是如此。
I mean, I think, my grandfather was a head librarian at Arizona State University, and it seemed like there's no end to reading.
我的意思是，我认为我的祖父是亚利桑那州立大学的图书管理员，阅读似乎永无止境。
Couldn't we just all do more reading?
难道我们就不能多读书吗？
Michael Kilgard: And reading is great, but there's also restrictions from reading.
迈克尔·基尔加德：阅读很棒，但阅读也有限制。
Ralph Waldo Emerson's one of my heroes, and he says, "Books well-used are among the best of things, and poorly used among the worst." And the idea is, if you could be coming up with your own ideas, maybe you shouldn't need to be following someone else's story and their own adventure.
拉尔夫·沃尔多·爱默生是我心目中的英雄之一，他说：“使用得当的书籍是最好的东西，而使用不当的书籍则是最糟糕的东西。”这个想法是，如果你能提出自己的想法，也许你不需要跟随别人的故事和他们自己的冒险。
Maybe you should go out and do your own a little bit.
也许你应该出去做一点自己的事。
And the question of proportions is a challenging one.
比例问题是一个具有挑战性的问题。
When it's raining and you can't go outside, maybe that's a good time for reading.
下雨天不能出门的时候，也许正是读书的好时机。
When it's a nice day outside, you could be going outside.
当外面天气好的时候，你可以出去。
Maybe that's a better time to go, find friends and work on dexterity and skills, and get some sunlight.
也许这是一个更好的时间去寻找朋友，锻炼灵活性和技能，并获得一些阳光。
Andrew Huberman: Thanks for mentioning sunlight, by the way.
Andrew Huberman：顺便说一下，谢谢你提到阳光。
That's a big theme on this podcast across episodes.
这是这个播客各集的一个大主题。
So, are you telling me that Emerson himself suggested that the technology of books not be overused?
那么，你是在告诉我艾默生本人建议不要过度使用书籍技术吗？
Michael Kilgard: He did.
迈克尔·基尔加德：他做到了。
He absolutely did.
他绝对做到了。
Andrew Huberman: Which is a wild thought in this day and age.
Andrew Huberman：在当今时代，这是一个疯狂的想法。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Michael Kilgard: No, it really is.
迈克尔·基尔加德：不，确实如此。
And that's what I mentioned about sort of our grandfathers, the wisdom that people knew from a long time ago.
这就是我提到的关于我们的祖父的智慧，人们很久以前就知道的智慧。
He had an intuition about how we follow into habits.
他对我们如何养成习惯有一种直觉。
He would find out that as I walk, I make paths, and the paths you just see, I keep doing the same way, and he would look at that and kind of intuitive that that's a habit that I'm forming, that may be helpful, but maybe I should try to take a different way the next day.
他会发现，当我走路时，我会划出路径，而你刚才看到的路径，我会一直以同样的方式做，他会看着它，并直觉地认为这是我正在形成的习惯，这可能会有所帮助，但也许第二天我应该尝试采取不同的方式。
He talked about the idea that consistency is overrated.
他谈到了一致性被高估的想法。
Michael Kilgard: He had this line from "The American Scholar." "Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds," that you feel like whatever I said, I have to keep saying that, keep being right.
迈克尔·基尔加德：他引用了《美国学者》中的这句话。 “一致性是小头脑的妖精”，你觉得无论我说什么，我都必须一直说，保持正确。
And the real world will teach you no. If you're wrong, the world will teach you.
而现实世界会告诉你不。如果你错了，世界会教导你。
If you think you're right about something, all your friends will teach you that you're not.
如果你认为自己在某件事上是正确的，那么你所有的朋友都会告诉你，你错了。
If you think this is the best way to kick the ball, you'll find out someone else has a different way of doing it, or play the instrument, or whatever it is.
如果您认为这是最好的踢球方式，您会发现其他人有不同的踢球方式，或者弹奏乐器，或者其他任何方式。
Michael Kilgard: So, I think that idea that there's some humility about there is no optimal, there's no perfect way, there's always some new way of learning; is something that I appreciated in reading books.
迈克尔·基尔加德：所以，我认为谦虚的想法是没有最佳的、没有完美的方法，总是有一些新的学习方法；这是我在读书中欣赏的东西。
And it's awkward that here's someone writing a book, telling you not to listen to people in books.
尴尬的是，有人写了一本书，告诉你不要听书里的人的话。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Kilgard: And go out and live the real world.
迈克尔·基尔加德：走出去，生活在现实世界中。
And I think a lot of us are coming around to that, that we need to have our own real experiences, and that there's value to that, not just reading about someone else's.
我认为我们很多人都意识到了这一点，我们需要拥有自己的真实经历，并且这很有价值，而不仅仅是阅读别人的经历。
Andrew Huberman: I forget where it appeared, but recently there was some photo or article published, where an artist had taken real-world images of humans out in the world, and had deleted the phone from the image in any case where there was a phone in the image.
Andrew Huberman：我忘记它出现在哪里了，但最近发表了一些照片或文章，其中一位艺术家拍摄了现实世界中人类的图像，并且在图像中存在手机的情况下从图像中删除了手机。
And what you basically see is that people are out in the world staring at their palms all the time.
你基本上看到的是，人们在外面的世界一直盯着他们的手掌。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And these are, you know, images from the last six months or so.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你知道，这些是过去六个月左右的图像。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Michael Kilgard: Mm-hmm.
迈克尔·基尔加德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: So, these aren't paintings, they're not drawings, and you really get the impression that people are removing themselves from their natural environment almost entirely.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，这些不是绘画，它们不是图画，你真的会得到这样的印象：人们几乎完全将自己从自然环境中移开。
Within the phone, there's something very interesting that I'm curious what you think of, for sake of understanding plasticity and what this might be doing to our brains.
在手机中，有一些非常有趣的东西，我很好奇你的想法，为了了解可塑性以及这可能对我们的大脑产生什么影响。
A picture's worth a thousand words.
一张图胜过一千个字。
A video is worth a billion pictures.
一个视频胜过十亿张图片。
Andrew Huberman: And I know you're not on social media, but if I scroll through an Instagram feed, or a Twitter feed, X feed that is, I can see 50 videos, 100 videos inside of 10 minutes, easily from disparate contexts.
Andrew Huberman：我知道你不在社交媒体上，但如果我滚动浏览 Instagram feed、Twitter feed、X feed，我可以在 10 分钟内轻松地从不同的上下文中看到 50 个视频、100 个视频。
Andrew Huberman: It can be sports, dogs, this, that.
Andrew Huberman：可以是运动、狗、这个、那个。
I mean, and the algorithm's obviously deciding what I see.
我的意思是，算法显然决定了我看到的内容。
But I don't think there's ever been an instance in human evolution where that was the case.
但我认为人类进化中从未有过这样的例子。
I mean, even with television with 200 channels, you can flip between channels.
我的意思是，即使电视有 200 个频道，您也可以在频道之间切换。
Okay, I guess you could keep looping, but that doesn't tend to be the case.
好吧，我想你可以继续循环，但情况往往并非如此。
People eventually would settle on a show or navigate a menu to a show.
人们最终会选择某个节目或通过菜单导航到某个节目。
What do you think this means in terms of the processing capacity of young brains in particular?
您认为这对于年轻大脑的处理能力意味着什么？
Andrew Huberman: Like if your son, I don't know how old he is, but if he's still in the developmental window of plasticity, or if he was at one point, or your daughter, if they are seeing 50 videos that are not really linked to one another in any particular way, that feels like a university experiment where they came into my lab, or your lab, and we're measuring brain activity and we're trying to see what random videos presented rapidly does to the brain or something.
安德鲁·休伯曼：就像你的儿子，我不知道他多大了，但如果他仍然处于可塑性的发育窗口，或者如果他在某一时刻，或者你的女儿，如果他们看到 50 个视频，这些视频彼此之间没有任何特定的联系，感觉就像他们来到我的实验室或你的实验室进行大学实验，我们正在测量大脑活动，我们试图看看快速呈现的随机视频对大脑有何影响。
Andrew Huberman: It doesn't seem like a healthy thing.
Andrew Huberman：这似乎不是一件健康的事情。
And I'm not trying to pass judgment without even understanding what it does, but I can't feel that that would be a good thing for the brain.
我并不是在不了解它的作用的情况下试图做出判断，但我不认为这对大脑来说是一件好事。
The brain's never experienced that before.
大脑以前从未经历过这种情况。
Michael Kilgard: Well, let's talk about what the brain does.
迈克尔·基尔加德：好吧，我们来谈谈大脑的作用。
So, we know these different areas which you've talked about, locus coeruleus releasing norepinephrine in the brain.
所以，我们知道你谈到的这些不同区域，蓝斑在大脑中释放去甲肾上腺素。
When something new and exciting happens, someone claps their hands, or pokes your ear, you know, a bug flies in your face, the neurons fire.
当一些新的、令人兴奋的事情发生时，有人拍手，或者戳你的耳朵，你知道，一只虫子飞到你的脸上，神经元就会放电。
They're surprised that that happened.
他们对发生这样的事感到惊讶。
If it keeps happening, then the neurons stop firing.
如果这种情况持续发生，神经元就会停止放电。
Michael Kilgard: So, one of the things that's most surprising to me, and interesting to me is there are experiments by Richardson, DeLong, and others, recording from these areas, nucleus basalis releasing acetylcholine, locus coeruleus, even dorsal raphe releasing serotonin, is that they're excited the first time, and then they quickly get used to it.
迈克尔·基尔加德：所以，最让我惊讶、最让我感兴趣的事情是理查森、德隆等人的实验，从这些区域记录，基底核释放乙酰胆碱，蓝斑，甚至中缝背释放血清素，他们第一次很兴奋，然后很快就习惯了。
And so, they're always waiting for what the new thing is.
因此，他们总是在等待新事物。
What's the thing that's going to be informative?
提供信息的东西是什么？
What's the thing that's going to have the most rewards?
获得最多奖励的事情是什么？
What's the thing that's going to have the most risk?
风险最大的事情是什么？
And the problem is, we don't know what the long-term consequences are of having over and over and over activation of that pathway.
问题是，我们不知道一遍又一遍地激活该通路会产生什么长期后果。
Michael Kilgard: We know that if you take a child and just sit them in orphanages for years upon years, they don't come out well.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我们知道，如果你把一个孩子放在孤儿院里年复一年，他们的成长不会很好。
That's pretty clear with animals, or humans, that deprivation is not good.
对于动物或人类来说，很明显，剥夺是不好的。
But what happens on the flip side when you stimulate and then you over-stimulate?
但当你刺激然后过度刺激时，另一面会发生什么？
We don't really know.
我们真的不知道。
At least, I don't know of any clear-cut, well-designed experiments.
至少，我不知道有什么明确的、精心设计的实验。
The suggestion, as you know, is maybe it increases depression and anxiety among adolescents.
如您所知，这个建议可能会增加青少年的抑郁和焦虑。
Michael Kilgard: That appears to be what's happening, but there's no causal link, because everyone is doing this experiment together.
迈克尔·基尔加德：这似乎就是正在发生的事情，但没有因果关系，因为每个人都在一起做这个实验。
My children watched lots of videos, are exposed to lots of things.
我的孩子看了很多视频，接触了很多东西。
It's very difficult to get rid of it.
想要摆脱它是非常困难的。
It's sort of in the water.
有点像在水里。
It's in the culture, having a phone and having that restricted view.
这是在文化中，拥有一部手机并且视野受到限制。
On the flip side, this generation is great.
另一方面，这一代人很棒。
They got a million things they know about because they were able to time travel and look at things in the distant past, look at things in the future, look at things in other countries.
他们得到了一百万件他们知道的事情，因为他们能够进行时间旅行，看看遥远的过去的事情，看看未来的事情，看看其他国家的事情。
Their awareness of people who are different from them is so exciting.
他们对与自己不同的人的认识是如此令人兴奋。
So, it's hard to balance those two.
所以，很难平衡这两者。
Michael Kilgard: But in general, the concern for me would be if you max out that neuromodulator release, if you do things all the time, including illicit drugs, that push that up, it's intuitive to me that that would then push down all your other experiences.
迈克尔·基尔加德：但总的来说，我担心的是，如果你最大限度地释放神经调节剂，如果你一直在做一些事情，包括非法药物，这会推高神经调节剂的释放，对我来说直觉是，这会压低你所有其他的经历。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Kilgard: So, I've had the great pleasure of taking my face from the desert world of the Sinai Peninsula and putting it down into the water of the Red Sea.
迈克尔·基尔加德：所以，我非常高兴能将自己的脸从西奈半岛的沙漠世界中取出并放入红海的水中。
It's miraculous.
太神奇了。
I mean, the level of colors, and movement, and textures.
我的意思是，颜色、运动和纹理的层次。
And you pull your head back up, and you're recalibrated.
然后你抬起头，你就重新校准了。
Like, this is the moon.
比如说，这就是月亮。
There's all this rock.
这里全是石头。
Put your face back down.
把脸放回去。
That contrast to me is real and very exciting.
这种对比对我来说是真实的，而且非常令人兴奋。
Others have told me that they have taken illicit drugs and had very similar experiences.
其他人告诉我，他们服用过非法药物并且有非常相似的经历。
Michael Kilgard: And I'm not going to say that my experience of real colors, and real life forms, and real waves and patterns is superior.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我不会说我对真实色彩、真实生命形式、真实波浪和图案的体验是优越的。
It's just my preference.
这只是我的偏好。
And I think we know people for thousands of years have had these kinds of experiences, looking at mountains, and streams, and groups of people.
我想我们知道几千年来人们都有过这样的经历，看山、看溪流、看人群。
What we don't know is what happens when you take a lot of fentanyl, a lot of methamphetamine, a lot of cocaine, or even nicotine at high levels.
我们不知道的是，当你服用大量芬太尼、大量甲基苯丙胺、大量可卡因，甚至高浓度尼古丁时会发生什么。
We don't know.
我们不知道。
But the worry is Ben Franklin's 'all things in moderation'.
但令人担忧的是本·富兰克林的“凡事都要适度”。
Probably better to take it slow and make sure you didn't overdo this one.
也许最好慢慢来，并确保你没有做得太过分。
But I don't know what the negative consequences are going to be other than the potential increase in depression and anxiety.
但我不知道除了可能增加抑郁和焦虑之外，还会产生什么负面后果。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: You were snorkeling on a coral reef in the Dead Sea.
Andrew Huberman：您当时正在死海的珊瑚礁上浮潜。
Is that the experience you were describing?
这就是你所描述的经历吗？
Michael Kilgard: That's right.
迈克尔·基尔加德：没错。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
I love aquaria.
我喜欢水族馆。
I have some at home, and I love snorkeling, and done some scuba diving.
我家里有一些，我喜欢浮潜，也做过一些水肺潜水。
And I agree.
我同意。
When you see the richness of a coral reef, and then you pop up, it's like the contrast is a big part of that experience.
当你看到丰富的珊瑚礁，然后你突然出现时，就好像对比是这种体验的重要组成部分。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: But it stays with you, right?
Andrew Huberman：但它一直伴随着你，对吧？
I mean, you're out of your element down there.
我的意思是，你已经不适应了。
You know, if you're doing scuba, you're more or less like a fish.
你知道，如果你在潜水，你或多或少就像一条鱼。
If you're snorkeling, you're a pseudo fish.
如果你浮潜，你就是一条伪鱼。
But when you come back, those experiences stay with you as an enriching experience.
但当你回来时，这些经历会成为你丰富的经历。
Watching a video of a coral reef, well, that can be relaxing.
观看珊瑚礁的视频，嗯，这可以让人放松。
It's a completely different experience, as you pointed out.
正如您所指出的，这是一种完全不同的体验。
Andrew Huberman: I have to be careful because I want...
安德鲁·休伯曼：我必须小心，因为我想……
I'm almost 50, and I want to believe that real-world experiences are better than virtual ones.
我快 50 岁了，我愿意相信现实世界的体验比虚拟体验更好。
And now with the huge arrival of AI, which is only going to expand, everyone's asking the same sorts of questions.
现在，随着人工智能的巨大到来（而且只会不断扩大），每个人都在问同样类型的问题。
At what point is it true sensory deprivation?
什么时候才是真正的感觉剥夺？
I mean, on the one end of the continuum, as you pointed out, sensory deprivation is bad, especially for a developing brain.
我的意思是，正如您所指出的，在连续体的一端，感觉剥夺是不好的，特别是对于发育中的大脑而言。
The other end of the continuum, sensory gluttony is also bad, and we could be talking about food here, right?
连续体的另一端，感官暴食也不好，我们可以在这里谈论食物，对吧？
Starvation is bad, and gluttony is bad.
饥饿是不好的，暴食也是不好的。
Both make you sick.
两者都会让你生病。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: One kills you faster.
安德鲁·休伯曼：一个人会更快地杀死你。
Starvation kills you faster.
饥饿会更快地杀死你。
But as we've now seen with the rates of obesity in this country, gluttony is...
但正如我们现在看到的这个国家的肥胖率，暴饮暴食是……
I'm not calling people gluttons to be disparaging of them, but let's face it, people are consuming more calories than they burn for whatever reason.
我称人们为贪吃者并不是为了贬低他们，但让我们面对现实吧，无论出于何种原因，人们消耗的卡路里比燃烧的卡路里多。
Andrew Huberman: So, I think when it comes to sensory input, I have a feeling we're going to arrive at a similar place in a few years where we're going to realize that we need to set upper limits on how much sensory input, and set quality standards for sensory input.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，我认为，当谈到感官输入时，我有一种感觉，几年后我们将到达类似的境地，我们将意识到我们需要设定感官输入的上限，并设定感官输入的质量标准。
Right now, we're just kind of drinking from the fire hose.
现在，我们只是从消防水带里喝水。
Michael Kilgard: Well, and how you interact with it, and the ways you interact with it are.
迈克尔·基尔加德：嗯，以及你如何与它互动，以及你与它互动的方式是什么。
If the only way to interact with it is flipping the screen, that's pretty limited.
如果与其交互的唯一方式是翻转屏幕，那么这是非常有限的。
The human body does a lot of amazing things.
人体可以做很多令人惊奇的事情。
The way we can navigate, whether it's skateboards, or paragliding, or whatever, people can do fantastic things with their bodies.
我们导航的方式，无论是滑板、滑翔伞还是其他什么，人们可以用自己的身体做出奇妙的事情。
But if you're not required to do it, we know this principle of use it or lose it.
但如果你不需要这样做，我们知道这个“用进废退”的原则。
If you don't have that exposure to the sounds of Swedish vowels...
如果您没有接触过瑞典元音的声音......
When we were born, we could hear all the Swedish vowels, and then we weren't raised in a culture that used them, and they just disappeared.
当我们出生时，我们可以听到所有瑞典元音，然后我们没有在使用它们的文化中长大，它们就消失了。
Michael Kilgard: And the worry is that that ability, the natural predisposition of our brains to handle those kinds of inputs, that over time when we don't use it, we'll say, "I guess you don't need this.
迈克尔·基尔加德：令人担忧的是，我们的大脑处理此类输入的自然倾向，随着时间的推移，当我们不使用它时，我们会说，“我猜你不需要这个。
I guess swimming is not something that you're going to need to do." And a lot of people don't swim, which is fine.
我想游泳不是你需要做的事情。”而且很多人不游泳，这很好。
But how many of those experiences get turned off, especially at a young age where they're easier to pick up?
但有多少这些经历会被关闭，尤其是在年轻的时候，因为这些经历更容易获得？
That's one of the big questions.
这是最大的问题之一。
I don't know.
我不知道。
But it makes sense that the kinds of training, the inputs in, you know, junk in, junk out.
但训练的种类和投入，你知道，垃圾进，垃圾出，这是有道理的。
We used to think, again, that bodies just grew.
我们曾经再次认为，身体只是生长而已。
Babies just got bigger.
婴儿刚刚长大。
That's all that happened.
这就是所发生的一切。
And then we started realizing the things that they saw mattered.
然后我们开始意识到他们看到的事情很重要。
Michael Kilgard: At first, we thought, 'Well, let's find what they like.
迈克尔·基尔加德：起初，我们想，‘好吧，让我们找到他们喜欢的东西。
What do they like the most?' You may remember these old experiments where they found that if you give a baby a face, and then you give it a cartoon face, it'll look more strongly at the cartoon face, the exaggerated black and white face.
他们最喜欢什么？你可能还记得这些古老的实验，他们发现，如果你给一个婴儿一张脸，然后你给它一张卡通脸，它会更强烈地看到卡通脸，即夸张的黑白脸。
And some babies had trouble disengaging from it.
有些婴儿很难摆脱它。
The attention mechanisms were so cued to two black circles and a mouth.
注意力机制被提示为两个黑色圆圈和一张嘴。
And people sold baby mobiles that were these very engaging things that the babies couldn't get their eyes off of.
人们出售婴儿手机，这些东西非常吸引人，让婴儿无法移开目光。
Now when you go to Babies "R" Us, or whatever store, you don't see those anymore.
现在，当您去 Babies“R”Us 或任何商店时，您将不再看到这些。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Kilgard: You see much more naturalistic kinds of things.
迈克尔·基尔加德：你会看到更多自然主义的事物。
But there was a moment when we thought, 'Well, if the babies like it, give it to them.' And then we sort of thought, 'Maybe just because they like it, is not sufficient.
但有一段时间我们想，“好吧，如果婴儿们喜欢，就给他们吧。”然后我们想，‘也许仅仅因为他们喜欢它是不够的。
Maybe we should try to do a longer-term read.
也许我们应该尝试进行更长期的阅读。
Not that short term immediate gratification, but the longer term.
不是短期的即时满足，而是长期的满足。
What does it do, that the face I've seen is an extreme face, an exaggerated face?' And again, we think back to individual neurons, whether retinal ganglion cells or cells in fusiform face area, these are parts of the brain that are involved in visual processing.
我所看到的这张脸是一张极端的脸、一张夸张的脸，这意味着什么？再次，我们回想单个神经元，无论是视网膜神经节细胞还是梭状面部区域的细胞，这些都是大脑中参与视觉处理的部分。
If those areas are wired normally, appropriately, then we pay attention to the right cues.
如果这些区域的接线正常、适当，那么我们就会注意正确的提示。
Michael Kilgard: It's typical when I'm looking at you when you're talking, to look at your eyes, not look at your mouth.
迈克尔·基尔加德：当你说话时我看着你，这是典型的，看你的眼睛，而不是看你的嘴。
But there are a number of people who will be more interested in the movement of the mouth, because it's larger than the eye movements.
但有很多人会对嘴巴的运动更感兴趣，因为它比眼睛的运动更大。
And that's a less effective way; to look is to look at the mouth instead of looking at the eyes.
这是一种不太有效的方法；看就是看嘴而不是看眼睛。
These are very subtle things, but some of the microaggressions, microgestures that are critical, not just in our culture, but in monkeys where gritting your teeth might mean one thing, and winking or looking away might mean another thing.
这些都是非常微妙的事情，但一些微侵犯、微手势至关重要，不仅在我们的文化中，而且在猴子中，咬紧牙关可能意味着一件事，而眨眼或移开视线可能意味着另一件事。
We want our children to pick those things up and know about how to interact with humans.
我们希望我们的孩子能够学会这些东西并了解如何与人类互动。
Michael Kilgard: On the flip side, social media and online culture is part of our culture now too.
迈克尔·基尔加德：另一方面，社交媒体和在线文化现在也是我们文化的一部分。
And so, depriving them of that and having them be blocked, deprived of what their culture now is, has also seemed harmful.
因此，剥夺他们的这一点并让他们受到封锁，剥夺他们现在的文化，似乎也是有害的。
So, for me and my wife, thinking about it, I don't want them to know nothing about the internet, but I don't want them to jump in with both feet and have all of their experiences.
所以，对于我和我的妻子来说，想一想，我不想让他们对互联网一无所知，但我也不希望他们双脚跳进去，拥有所有的经历。
So, what proportion is that?
那么，这个比例是多少呢？
You know, 20% of your day on the internet?
你知道吗，你一天有 20% 的时间都在上网？
That seems reasonable maybe.
这似乎很合理。
Many people are at 80%, 90% sometimes.
很多人有时是80%，有时是90%。
Michael Kilgard: I think it might be better to be at 5%, only when you're needing it to reach out or do things.
Michael Kilgard：我认为 5% 可能会更好，只有当你需要它来伸出援手或做事时。
But I don't know the answer to that.
但我不知道答案。
We're doing this big experiment.
我们正在做这个大实验。
But we've done these experiments before.
但我们之前已经做过这些实验。
We did these experiments, like you said, with television, 200 channels.
正如您所说，我们用 200 个频道的电视进行了这些实验。
We did this experiment with the radio.
我们用收音机做了这个实验。
We did this experiment with the printing press, when suddenly you could go into a library and just there were books everywhere.
我们用印刷机做了这个实验，突然你可以走进图书馆，到处都是书。
What would that do to people?
这会对人们造成什么影响？
And I'm generally an optimist, you can probably already tell.
我通常是一个乐观主义者，你可能已经知道了。
Humanity's done pretty good so far.
到目前为止，人类做得很好。
The last 100 technologies didn't end things, whether it was machine guns or nuclear war or weapons.
最后 100 项技术并没有结束一切，无论是机关枪、核战争还是武器。
Michael Kilgard: So, I'm cautiously optimistic, but I think we will rebalance, and it won't necessarily be someone telling us.
Michael Kilgard：所以，我持谨慎乐观的态度，但我认为我们会重新平衡，而且不一定是有人告诉我们。
It'll be people figuring out, "I don't feel good when I use this." So, both my son and daughter routinely mention to me when they turn off apps, remove, pick your social media.
人们会发现，“当我使用这个时，我感觉不太好。”因此，我的儿子和女儿在关闭应用程序、删除、选择社交媒体时都会经常提到我。
They just need a break.
他们只是需要休息一下。
And I think that's again, a sign that people individually have enough autonomy to figure out for themselves, what's working and what's not.
我认为这再次表明人们有足够的自主权来自己弄清楚什么有效，什么无效。
But it would be good to have a body of knowledge to reinforce that and make it feel okay.
但最好有一套知识来强化这一点并让人感觉良好。
You're not missing out.
你没有错过。
You're not punished because you turned this off for a few days or weeks.
您不会因为关闭此功能几天或几周而受到惩罚。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, the algorithms punish you for turning it off for a while.
Andrew Huberman：是的，算法会惩罚你暂时关闭它。
It favors a pretty consistent cadence of posting and interaction.
它有利于保持一致的发帖和互动节奏。
I'm very surprised that somebody had the good sense to steer parents away from buying mobiles.
我很惊讶竟然有人明智地引导父母不要购买手机。
We should probably explain, these are, like, things that you hang above the baby's crib, of course, and they spin around.
我们或许应该解释一下，当然，这些东西就像你挂在婴儿床上方的东西，它们会旋转。
They have kind of like branches on a tree.
它们有点像树上的树枝。
They're colorful.
它们色彩缤纷。
They have motion.
他们有运动。
Babies can interact with them safely, this kind of thing.
婴儿可以安全地与他们互动，这种事情。
Andrew Huberman: I'm quite surprised, pleased but surprised to hear that when the ideal mobile for getting babies to attend with just the simple faces was discovered, that somebody intervened and said, "Hey, just because they like it doesn't mean it's good for them." I mean, everything else in sort of a commercial industry runs exactly the opposite way until we discover it's actually harming us.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我很惊讶，很高兴，但很惊讶的是，当发现让婴儿只用简单的面孔参加的理想移动设备时，有人介入并说：“嘿，仅仅因为他们喜欢它并不意味着它对他们有好处。”我的意思是，商业行业中的其他一切都以完全相反的方式运行，直到我们发现它实际上正在伤害我们。
So, I'm positively surprised.
所以，我非常惊讶。
Andrew Huberman: I don't know who made that decision.
Andrew Huberman：我不知道是谁做出的决定。
But I'm relieved to hear that if you go buy a mobile now, it's not the one that would maximally cause the baby to attend.
但听到如果你现在去买一部手机，这并不是最能促使宝宝参加的手机，我感到很欣慰。
It's the one that's best for their development of the visual system.
这是最有利于视觉系统发育的一种。
And I immediately think of iPads.
我立刻就想到了 iPad。
Michael Kilgard: Mm-hmm.
迈克尔·基尔加德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I mean, if you give a baby an iPad, they will just be there all day.
Andrew Huberman：我的意思是，如果你给婴儿一台 iPad，他们就会整天呆在那里。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And we think, 'Oh, well, they like it'.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我们想，‘哦，好吧，他们喜欢它’。
We sort of know it's not good for them, and yet it's become the digital babysitter that the television used to be.
我们知道这对他们没有好处，但它已经成为电视曾经的数字保姆。
Now, I'm not anti-technology.
现在，我并不反对技术。
I mean, I grew up in Silicon Valley, after all.
我的意思是，毕竟我是在硅谷长大的。
And I use technology, including social media.
我使用科技，包括社交媒体。
But I guess I'm concerned and struck by, you know, this question of where to draw the line.
但我想我对如何划清界限的问题感到担忧和震惊。
So, in this instance, somebody had the good sense.
所以，在这种情况下，有人有很好的判断力。
But, I mean, the food equivalent would be, sure, I'm sure kids would prefer ice cream.
但是，我的意思是，当然，我确信孩子们会更喜欢冰淇淋。
They'd eat it all day long, as opposed to things that are more nutritious for them.
他们整天都在吃它，而不是对他们来说更有营养的东西。
Michael Kilgard: Right.
迈克尔·基尔加德：对。
Michael Kilgard: Right, that's right.
迈克尔·基尔加德：对，没错。
Michael Kilgard: But there are consequences.
迈克尔·基尔加德：但也会产生后果。
Andrew Huberman: But someone had to intervene.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但必须有人干预。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah, yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的，是的。
Michael Kilgard: I mean, there's a bunch of things that brings to mind.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我的意思是，我想起了很多事情。
One is, how studying the brain informs how we should use our brains.
一是，研究大脑如何告诉我们应该如何使用我们的大脑。
One idea, as you mentioned, was early language development.
正如您提到的，一个想法是早期语言发展。
Alison Gopnik and other people have looked into there's contrasts in sounds that we can't hear.
艾莉森·戈普尼克和其他人研究了我们听不到的声音之间的对比。
And so, when my kids were young, we said, 'Oh, we should expose them to all those sounds.' And so, there's that company called Baby Einstein, and they play, you know, Spanish or French or...
因此，当我的孩子还小的时候，我们说，“哦，我们应该让他们接触所有这些声音。”因此，有一家名为“小爱因斯坦”的公司，他们演奏西班牙语、法语或……
Michael Kilgard: But we don't really know how much of these languages should they be exposed to.
Michael Kilgard：但我们真的不知道他们应该接触多少这些语言。
What is the right mix to make them better world citizens, better learners, smarter, more resistant to disorders or whatever?
什么是正确的组合，可以让他们成为更好的世界公民、更好的学习者、更聪明、更能抵抗疾病或其他什么？
We don't know the answer to that, so we're just running the natural experiment.
我们不知道答案，所以我们只是进行自然实验。
I tell everybody that being a neuroscientist is way easier than being a parent.
我告诉大家，成为一名神经科学家比成为一名父母容易得多。
There's just too many choices, and there's no control group.
选择太多，而且没有对照组。
There's no way to run it again until you find out the actual answer.
在找到实际答案之前，无法再次运行它。
Michael Kilgard: What's interesting was that it turns out exposing babies passively to the sounds from other languages really doesn't change very much at all, because there's no interaction.
迈克尔·基尔加德：有趣的是，事实证明，让婴儿被动地接触其他语言的声音实际上并没有太大变化，因为没有互动。
So, the Chinese tones or the Swedish vowels, these different sounds, when they're not really interacting with you, when they're just on the screen, you don't pick them up.
所以，汉语声调或瑞典语元音，这些不同的声音，当它们没有真正与你互动时，当它们只是出现在屏幕上时，你不会听到它们。
Which is really fascinating, that your brain already knows, 'That's a TV.' And how does it know that?
这真的很有趣，你的大脑已经知道，“那是一台电视。”它是怎么知道的？
It knows it because your interactions with it are so limited.
它知道这一点，因为你与它的互动非常有限。
Michael Kilgard: I took Spanish as a kid, and they said, "You should watch telenovelas and learn Spanish, and you'll learn the culture, and you'll pick it all up.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我小时候学过西班牙语，他们说，“你应该看电视剧，学习西班牙语，你会学到文化，你会学会一切。
You'll get the humor and the jokes." I didn't learn that much from it, because no one was talking to me.
你会得到幽默和笑话。”我没有从中学到很多东西，因为没有人跟我说话。
I was watching passively.
我就被动地看着。
And so, we now know that when you're actively engaged, you're going to have better neuroplasticity, better generalization.
所以，我们现在知道，当你积极参与时，你将拥有更好的神经可塑性和更好的概括能力。
You're gonna better connect it than when you just sit back and watch.
你会更好地连接它，而不是袖手旁观。
Here, swiping is not exactly no interaction.
在这里，滑动并不完全是没有交互。
You have some, but it's pretty impoverished, pretty limited.
你有一些，但非常贫困，非常有限。
So, I suspect a lot of it isn't that bad.
所以，我怀疑很多事情并没有那么糟糕。
Michael Kilgard: It just kind of comes in one ear and goes out the other.
迈克尔·基尔加德：它只是一只耳朵进来，另一只耳朵出去。
But that also means those hours aren't spent doing something else.
但这也意味着这些时间不会花在做其他事情上。
Playing in the mud, getting your immune system developed, interacting with children, hitting things with a ball.
玩泥巴、锻炼免疫系统、与孩子互动、用球击打物体。
You maybe aren't taking as many risks.
您可能不会冒那么多风险。
Maybe that's a good thing.
也许这是一件好事。
Maybe you're not getting as many head injuries as we used to get.
也许你的头部受伤不像我们以前那么多。
Maybe that's a good thing.
也许这是一件好事。
So, I think we got to take the good with the bad.
所以，我认为我们必须兼顾好与坏。
But in general, the idea that neuroscience is accessible and that we learn that our experiences really matter, I think that's the exciting part.
但总的来说，神经科学是易于理解的，而且我们知道我们的经历确实很重要，我认为这是令人兴奋的部分。
Michael Kilgard: Why is ChatGPT so smart?
Michael Kilgard：为什么 ChatGPT 如此智能？
We train it on every word we ever wrote, the whole species, and then that went into these billions of connections, and those billions of connections produce something that's relatively sophisticated.
我们用我们写过的每一个单词、整个物种来训练它，然后将其输入到这数十亿个连接中，而这些数十亿个连接会产生相对复杂的东西。
The same thing for a child.
对于孩子来说也是如此。
Here's a child.
这是一个孩子。
The experiences they have matter.
他们的经历很重要。
All the kids are going to learn to walk, or almost all of them, by a year, but a lot of things happen during that year, a lot of falls, a lot of tumbles, a lot of whats, a lot of stairs.
所有的孩子，或者说几乎所有的孩子，到一年后都会学会走路，但是这一年里会发生很多事情，很多摔倒，很多摔倒，很多事情，很多楼梯。
Michael Kilgard: And so I think, for me, having those large fraction of experiences be what I call real, having the statistics of the natural world, things that our grandparents would have recognized and been familiar, that's likely to be something that's good for your brain both as a youth, as well as a full-grown adult.
迈克尔·基尔加德：所以我认为，对我来说，拥有我所说的真实经历的大部分，拥有自然世界的统计数据，我们的祖父母会认识和熟悉的东西，这可能对你的大脑无论是作为年轻人还是成年后都有好处。
Then you ask the question, how about at the end of life?
然后你问一个问题，在生命的尽头呢？
At the end of life, is it now okay?
生命的尽头，现在还好吗？
My brain's already done.
我的脑子已经好了。
Can I swipe to my heart's consent?
可以刷我心同意吗？
Can I watch 'Wheel of Fortune' or whatever I want all day long?
我可以整天看“命运之轮”或任何我想看的节目吗？
The evidence suggests it also causes depression and anxiety.
有证据表明它还会导致抑郁和焦虑。
Michael Kilgard: If your day doesn't involve other people communicating, if there aren't surprises, someone knocks on the door.
迈克尔·基尔加德：如果你的一天没有与其他人交流，如果没有惊喜，就会有人敲门。
When I was a kid, people knocked on the door a lot.
当我还是个孩子的时候，经常有人敲门。
It was a big surprise.
这是一个很大的惊喜。
That's not a surprise children have that much anymore, someone just randomly knocking, because they would have texted.
孩子们不再有这么多，这并不奇怪，有人只是随意敲门，因为他们会发短信。
And so, the surprises are now coming from, I got a text.
所以，惊喜来自于，我收到了一条短信。
Oh, Bill wants to come over.
哦，比尔想过来。
Michael Kilgard: As the population ages, many people are likely to find out that having too many experiences that are disconnected from reality, that are just a show that's made to be engaging and interesting, isn't as good as getting on a boat and driving someplace, visiting some location, getting on a bus, driving, flying, whatever it is.
迈克尔·基尔加德：随着人口老龄化，许多人可能会发现，拥有太多与现实脱节的体验，这些体验只是为了吸引人、有趣而制作的节目，不如乘船开车去某个地方、参观某个地方、上公共汽车、开车、飞行，无论是什么。
So, travel gives you different experiences.
所以，旅行给你带来不一样的体验。
You smell different smells.
你闻到不同的气味。
You hear different things.
你听到不同的事情。
And those engage, again, those neuromodulators.
这些又会影响神经调节剂。
Michael Kilgard: Those neuromodulators then help make changes because the vast majority of inputs we take in, we just throw away.
迈克尔·基尔加德：这些神经调节剂有助于做出改变，因为我们接受的绝大多数输入都被丢弃了。
We're not memorizing every place I ever was, every place I ever set my keys, every word everyone ever said.
我们不会记住我去过的每一个地方、我放过钥匙的每一个地方、每个人说过的每一句话。
I mean, none of us are tape recorders.
我的意思是，我们都不是录音机。
We're picking which moments are the moments that are useful.
我们正在选择哪些时刻是有用的时刻。
And that's hard to know, because we don't know what the future looks like.
这很难知道，因为我们不知道未来会是什么样子。
Michael Kilgard: But we're making guesses based on what the past looks like.
迈克尔·基尔加德：但我们是根据过去的情况做出猜测。
And so when the past is abnormal, robotic, exaggerated in its novelty, we make changes assuming the future's going to look like that, and the future may not be.
因此，当过去异常、机械化、夸大新奇时，我们就会做出改变，假设未来会是这样，但未来可能不是这样。
The future may be a job, and it may not be this exciting.
未来可能是一份工作，但可能不会那么令人兴奋。
And it may be hard to stay focused for eight hours a day if you're used to something exciting happening every two and a half seconds and then I have to do a job.
如果你习惯了每两秒半就会发生一些令人兴奋的事情，然后我就必须做一份工作，那么你可能很难每天保持八个小时的专注。
Michael Kilgard: For me, it's writing, where I have to sit and stay focused for hours at a time trying to put a handful of ideas together in a way that other people understand, or try to develop a new treatment for someone who's suffering from a serious neurological psychiatric disorder.
迈克尔·基尔加德：对我来说，这就是写作，我必须坐下来，一次集中注意力几个小时，试图以其他人理解的方式将一些想法组合在一起，或者尝试为患有严重神经精神疾病的人开发一种新的治疗方法。
It just takes hours and hours of focus.
只需要几个小时的专注。
And for me, fishing was helpful for that.
对我来说，钓鱼对此很有帮助。
Sit there with your dad and you just fish for hours.
和你爸爸坐在那儿，你就可以钓鱼几个小时。
And you go, "What are you doing?" "We're not catching.
然后你就问：“你在做什么？” “我们不抓。
We're fishing." It just means we have a line in the water, and there might be a fish.
我们正在钓鱼。”这只是意味着我们在水中有一条线，并且可能有一条鱼。
There might not be.
可能没有。
And it may only be 1% of the time you're catching a fish.
而且这可能只占你钓到鱼的 1% 的时间。
Michael Kilgard: It might be one-tenth of a percent of your time you're catching a fish.
迈克尔·基尔加德：你抓鱼的时间可能只有十分之一。
But that's enough, because the time spent in anticipation, and waiting, and preparation, those were meaningful times as well.
但这就足够了，因为期待、等待、准备的时间，也是有意义的时光。
So, I think there's a little bit of a shift toward; what are the key parts?
所以，我认为有一点转变：关键部分是什么？
Is it the dopamine hit, the exciting, the novelty part, or is it all the other stuff?
是多巴胺的刺激、令人兴奋、新奇的部分，还是其他的东西？
And we're now learning from the training of these networks, all of it matters.
我们现在正在从这些网络的训练中学习，所有这些都很重要。
Michael Kilgard: All of those inputs, all of those syllables, all the junk words matter.
迈克尔·基尔加德：所有这些输入、所有音节、所有垃圾词都很重要。
And so, I think that shift toward thinking we know what's important, the stuff we think of as important, that may not be all of it.
因此，我认为这种转变认为我们知道什么是重要的，我们认为重要的东西，这可能还不是全部。
All the rest probably plays an important role too.
其余的可能也发挥着重要作用。
Andrew Huberman: I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, 'AG1'.
Andrew Huberman：我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商“AG1”。
AG1 is a vitamin-mineral-probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens.
AG1 是一种维生素-矿物质-益生菌饮料，还含有益生元和适应原。
As somebody who's been involved in research science for almost three decades, and in health and fitness for equally as long, I'm constantly looking for the best tools to improve my mental health, physical health, and performance.
作为一个从事科学研究近三十年的人，并且在健康和健身领域也有同样长的时间，我一直在寻找最好的工具来改善我的心理健康、身体健康和表现。
I discovered AG1 back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since.
我早在 2012 年就发现了 AG1，那时我还没有播客，从那时起我就每天都在服用它。
Andrew Huberman: I find it improves all aspects of my health, my energy, my focus, and I simply feel much better when I take it.
Andrew Huberman：我发现它改善了我的健康、精力、注意力的各个方面，而且服用它后我感觉好多了。
AG1 uses the highest-quality ingredients in the right combinations, and they're constantly improving their formulas without increasing the cost.
AG1 使用最优质的成分进行正确的组合，并且在不增加成本的情况下不断改进其配方。
In fact, AG1 just launched their latest formula upgrade.
事实上，AG1刚刚推出了他们最新的配方升级。
Andrew Huberman: This next-gen formula is based on exciting new research on the effects of probiotics on the gut microbiome, and it now includes several clinically studied probiotic strains, shown to support both digestive health, and immune system health, as well as to improve bowel regularity and to reduce bloating.
Andrew Huberman：这种下一代配方基于益生菌对肠道微生物组影响的令人兴奋的新研究，它现在包含几种经过临床研究的益生菌菌株，这些菌株被证明可以支持消化健康和免疫系统健康，并改善肠道规律性和减少腹胀。
Whenever I'm asked if I could take just one supplement, what that supplement would be, I always say, "AG1." If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman.
每当我被问到是否可以只服用一种补充剂时，我总是说“AG1”。如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman。
Andrew Huberman: For a limited time, AG1 is giving away a free one-month supply of omega-3 fish oil, along with a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2.
Andrew Huberman：在有限的时间内，AG1 将免费赠送一个月的 omega-3 鱼油，以及一瓶维生素 D3 加 K2。
As I've highlighted before on this podcast, omega-3 fish oil and vitamin D3-K2 have been shown to help with everything from mood and brain health, to heart health, to healthy hormone status, and much more.
正如我之前在此播客中强调的那样，omega-3 鱼油和维生素 D3-K2 已被证明对改善情绪和大脑健康、心脏健康、健康激素状态等各个方面都有帮助。
Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman to get a free one-month supply of omega-3 fish oil plus a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2 with your subscription.
再次强调，通过 Drinkag1.com/huberman 订阅，即可免费获得一个月的 omega-3 鱼油以及一瓶维生素 D3 和 K2。
Andrew Huberman: Today's episode is also brought to us by 'Carbon'.
Andrew Huberman：今天的节目也是由“Carbon”给我们带来的。
Carbon is a diet coaching app built by nutrition expert, Dr. Layne Norton.
Carbon 是一款由营养专家 Layne Norton 博士开发的饮食指导应用程序。
Now, I've used Carbon for more than three years now, and I have to say; it's among the most powerful tools for nutrition coaching and effective weight management that I've ever encountered, especially if your goal is like mine, which is to maintain or build muscle while also losing fat.
现在，我已经使用 Carbon 三年多了，我不得不说；它是我遇到过的最强大的营养指导和有效体重管理工具之一，特别是如果您的目标和我一样，即保持或增强肌肉，同时减少脂肪。
Andrew Huberman: Now, I'm turning 50 years old this September, and even though I consider myself in pretty good shape, and I've been training for a long time and trying to eat right, one of my goals is to hit 50 in the absolute best shape of my life.
Andrew Huberman：现在，我今年九月就满 50 岁了，尽管我认为自己的身体状况相当好，而且我已经训练了很长时间并尝试正确饮食，但我的目标之一是以一生中绝对最好的状态达到 50 岁。
To do that, I'm dialing in my nutrition, using Carbon, with the goals of increasing my muscle mass, increasing my strength, while also decreasing my body fat.
为了做到这一点，我正在调整我的营养，使用碳，目标是增加我的肌肉质量，增强我的力量，同时减少我的身体脂肪。
I've been raving about the Carbon app to friends, and to family, and to members of my Huberman Lab team over the last few years, and everyone who's joined me in using it has found it to be tremendously useful.
在过去的几年里，我一直对朋友、家人以及我的 Huberman 实验室团队的成员们赞不绝口，每个和我一起使用它的人都发现它非常有用。
Andrew Huberman: In fact, some of those people are going to join me in my approaching 50 fitness goals and body composition goals.
Andrew Huberman：事实上，其中一些人将与我一起实现我即将实现的 50 个健身目标和身体成分目标。
My birthday is September 26th, and so I'd like to invite you to join if you would like to improve your body composition and fitness, to also use the Carbon app.
我的生日是 9 月 26 日，所以如果您想改善身体成分和健身，并使用 Carbon 应用程序，我想邀请您加入。
Now, there are a lot of apps out there that are focused on fitness and nutrition, but what makes Carbon different is that it doesn't just hand you a one-size-fits-all plan.
现在，有很多专注于健身和营养的应用程序，但 Carbon 的不同之处在于，它不仅仅为您提供一刀切的计划。
It actually learns your metabolism over time, and it adapts your program based on your results.
它实际上会随着时间的推移了解您的新陈代谢，并根据您的结果调整您的计划。
Andrew Huberman: It also allows you total flexibility in how you eat.
Andrew Huberman：它还可以让您在饮食方式上完全灵活。
So, if you're looking to take a smarter, more personalized approach to your nutrition, I can't recommend the Carbon app enough.
因此，如果您希望采取更智能、更个性化的营养方法，我强烈推荐 Carbon 应用程序。
To try Carbon, you can go to joincarbon.com/huberman.
要尝试 Carbon，您可以访问 joincarbon.com/huberman。
While Carbon does not typically offer trials or promotions, they've agreed to give a free seven-day trial to all Huberman podcast listeners.
虽然 Carbon 通常不提供试用或促销，但他们同意向所有 Huberman 播客听众提供为期 7 天的免费试用。
Again, that's joincarbon.com/huberman to get a seven-day free trial.
再次强调，请访问 joincarbon.com/huberman 以获得 7 天免费试用。
Andrew Huberman: You and I both come from lineages of neuroscientists that focus on neuroplasticity.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你和我都来自专注于神经可塑性的神经科学家。
My lineage, through Hubel and Weasel, were really about the developmental plasticity piece.
我的血统，通过休贝尔和黄鼠狼，实际上是关于发育可塑性的。
Your lineage, through Mike Merzenich, and others, it's really about the adult plasticity piece.
你的血统，通过迈克·梅泽尼奇（Mike Merzenich）和其他人，实际上是关于成人可塑性的。
So, I'm hoping that as we move forward, you'll be willing to do a little bit of an experiment with me.
所以，我希望随着我们的进展，你会愿意和我一起做一些实验。
Andrew Huberman: As you were talking just now, what I realized is my real wish, not just for this conversation, but in life, is to come up with some real understanding of what the requirements for plasticity are, in a way that regardless of how the world changes, AI, social media, love, scuba diving, snorkeling, et cetera, regardless of the inputs, that we can make the best informed choices.
Andrew Huberman：正如你刚才所说，我意识到我真正的愿望，不仅仅是为了这次谈话，而是在生活中，就是对可塑性的要求是什么有一些真正的理解，无论世界如何变化，人工智能、社交媒体、爱情、水肺潜水、浮潜等等，无论输入如何，我们都可以做出最好的明智选择。
Understanding, of course, that not all of life is about rewiring ourselves.
当然，我们要明白，生活并非全部都是为了重新连接自己。
Andrew Huberman: Some of life is about enjoying ourselves.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：生活的一部分就是享受自己。
So, if I may, I'm going to just put up a couple of things on the nonexistent whiteboard here to frame in peoples' minds.
因此，如果可以的话，我将在不存在的白板上放置一些内容，以供人们记住。
I think we understand, just by observation for thousands of years, but also now from science, that from the time we're born until about 25, there's a lot of passive experience that helps reorganize the brain.
我认为，仅通过数千年的观察，而且现在也通过科学，我们就知道，从我们出生到 25 岁左右，有很多被动的经历可以帮助重组大脑。
Negative experiences get kind of stamped down.
负面经历会被压制。
Andrew Huberman: They can be undone through work like talk therapy, and maybe some neural augmentation that we'll talk about later for PTSD.
Andrew Huberman：它们可以通过谈话疗法等工作来消除，也许还有一些我们稍后将讨论的针对 PTSD 的神经增强疗法。
This is also true in adulthood.
成年后也是如此。
But it's clear that there are at least two things that are required for plasticity at all stages of life.
但很明显，在生命的各个阶段，可塑性至少需要满足两件事。
One is some degree of focus, right?
一是一定程度的专注，对吗？
It just can't be stuff in the room.
它不可能是房间里的东西。
It can't be classical music playing in the room.
房间里不能放古典音乐。
You're not going to build a Mozart, or even somebody that can play even a fraction of an instrument.
你不会建造一个莫扎特，甚至不会演奏任何乐器的一小部分。
But if a kid learns an instrument, they can do it.
但如果孩子学了一门乐器，他们就能做到。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: If an adult really focuses and tries to learn an instrument, they can do it.
Andrew Huberman：如果一个成年人真正集中精力并尝试学习一种乐器，他们就能做到。
It's just slower in adulthood, in most cases.
在大多数情况下，成年后的速度会变慢。
The other piece that I'm aware of, and tell me if I'm off here, is sleep is required.
我知道的另一件事是，如果我离开这里，请告诉我，睡眠是必需的。
A lot of the rewiring of neural connections actually occurs during rapid eye movement sleep and deep sleep.
许多神经连接的重新布线实际上发生在快速眼动睡眠和深度睡眠期间。
You can't just focus and just work infinitum.
你不能只是专注并且无休止地工作。
You need sleep.
你需要睡眠。
You need rest for the rewiring to occur.
您需要休息才能重新布线。
But as you're telling me about these experiments...
但当你告诉我这些实验时...
And by the way, I was not aware of this experiment that kids will attend more to a kind of a cartoon face than to a real face.
顺便说一句，我不知道这个实验表明孩子们会更多地关注卡通面孔而不是真实的面孔。
I was not aware of that.
我不知道这一点。
Andrew Huberman: As you're telling me about that, or fishing, or we're talking about music learning, or language learning, I believe the best way to learn a language is to place yourself into an environment where it's critical that you learn it, like go to a foreign country.
安德鲁·休伯曼：正如你告诉我的那样，或者钓鱼，或者我们正在谈论音乐学习或语言学习，我相信学习语言的最佳方法是将自己置于一个对学习至关重要的环境中，比如去国外。
And if you need to learn how to navigate by virtue of understanding and speaking some remnants of that language, you're going to learn it much more quickly than sitting in Spanish class back in the United States.
如果您需要学习如何通过理解和说出该语言的一些残余内容来进行导航，那么您将比坐在美国的西班牙语课堂上更快地学习它。
Andrew Huberman: So, I'm wondering if in my mental model of how to change one's brain, that in addition to focus, which requires alertness, right?
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，我想知道在我的如何改变大脑的心理模型中，除了注意力之外，还需要警觉性，对吧？
In addition to focus and periods of sleep for the rewiring to occur, maybe I can...
除了重新布线所需的注意力和睡眠时间之外，也许我可以……
If you have a better word, let me know, but I want to introduce this, an element of friction.
如果你有更好的词，请告诉我，但我想介绍一下这个，摩擦的一个因素。
That there needs to be focus and friction, right?
需要有焦点和摩擦，对吧？
Because with the kid looking at the face, the cartoon face, there's focus but there's no friction to get there.
因为当孩子看着那张卡通脸时，他的注意力就会集中，但到达那里时不会有任何阻力。
With friction, like, there's some element of self-generated work.
就像摩擦一样，有一些自我产生的工作元素。
Like with the snorkeling, you have to get wet.
就像浮潜一样，你必须全身湿透。
You have to go under the water.
你必须潜入水下。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: You have to put the mask on.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你必须戴上面具。
It's kind of weird to breathe through a snorkel the first time you do it.
第一次用通气管呼吸的时候感觉有点奇怪。
It's kind of uncomfortable.
有点不舒服。
There are a bunch of things that go with it that make that experience so much more enriching in terms of how it rewires the brain.
伴随着它的还有很多东西，使得这种体验在如何重新连接大脑方面变得更加丰富。
And traumatic events, unfortunately, engage focus and friction.
不幸的是，创伤事件会引起焦点和摩擦。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: So, it meets this requirement.
Andrew Huberman：所以，它满足这个要求。
So, I'm trying to come up with a table here.
所以，我想在这里拿出一张桌子。
And, as scientists, we should try and disprove what we're putting up, right?
而且，作为科学家，我们应该尝试反驳我们所提出的观点，对吗？
But I feel like what one wants is just enough friction, a lot of focus, and then a period of rest in order for plasticity to occur.
但我觉得一个人想要的只是足够的摩擦，大量的注意力，然后一段时间的休息，以便发生可塑性。
And maybe in a video game, there isn't enough friction.
也许在电子游戏中，没有足够的摩擦。
Your daughter being involved; very interested rather in real-world human experiences, it's a pseudo-random walk.
你的女儿参与其中；对现实世界的人类经历非常感兴趣，这是一种伪随机游走。
Andrew Huberman: I mean, there's some regularities about how humans interact, but it's kind of a near infinite space.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我的意思是，人类的互动方式有一些规律性，但它是一个近乎无限的空间。
And it certainly is valuable to have social-emotional intelligence.
拥有社交情商当然很有价值。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: We know this.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我们知道这一点。
So, what are your thoughts about needing to work, in addition to focus, in order to get meaningful...
那么，除了专注之外，为了变得有意义，您对需要工作有何想法......
And when I say meaningful, I mean really adaptive plasticity.
当我说有意义时，我指的是真正的适应性可塑性。
Stuff that makes us smarter, makes us better people, makes us feel more fulfilled.
让我们变得更聪明、让我们成为更好的人、让我们感到更满足的东西。
I mean, it's not all about, you know, test scores.
我的意思是，这不仅仅与考试成绩有关。
But a really good life is one in which, you know, you feel like the things you're doing have meaning.
但真正美好的生活是，你知道，你觉得自己所做的事情是有意义的。
Michael Kilgard: Mm-hmm.
迈克尔·基尔加德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: You don't look back on the past year and go, 'Yeah, that was just a bunch of shmooey experiences.'
安德鲁·胡伯曼：当你回顾过去的一年时，你不会说，“是的，那只是一堆令人震惊的经历。”
Michael Kilgard: Yeah, I mean, to start on the part you ended on, I mean, I really think reflection on these topics...
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的，我的意思是，从你结束的部分开始，我的意思是，我真的认为对这些主题的反思......
This is another one that was a big surprise, is that thinking about it later also rewires your brain, not just the sleeping part when you're clearly thinking about it and turning it over in your mind.
这是另一个令人大吃一惊的事情，那就是，稍后思考它也会重新连接你的大脑，而不仅仅是当你清楚地思考它并在脑海中翻来覆去时的睡眠部分。
Andrew Huberman: That's a very good point.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这是一个非常好的观点。
Michael Kilgard: But as you're on the way home from the game;
迈克尔·基尔加德：但是当你从比赛回家的路上；
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Kilgard: As you're planning to drive to the game, or the date, or the business appointment, or whatever it might be, that idea that all the learning doesn't happen at this one moment, but there was some preparation that went into it.
迈克尔·基尔加德：当你计划开车去看比赛、约会、商务约会或其他任何事情时，你会想到所有的学习都不会在这一刻发生，但需要做一些准备。
There was the actual event, which often has the friction you're describing, where there's some engagement, and decisions are being made, where there's information being transmitted, and information being gained.
有实际的事件，通常有你所描述的摩擦，有一些参与，正在做出决定，有信息被传输，并且信息被获取。
And then this period of reflection where you're wondering about it, you're thinking about it.
然后在这段反思时期，你会想知道它，你会思考它。
Michael Kilgard: For me, often, looking back over my pictures, either of having a child, or going on vacation, is helpful in reorganizing it and reframing it.
迈克尔·基尔加德：对我来说，经常回顾我的照片，无论是生孩子还是去度假，都有助于重新组织和重新构建它。
For me, those are helpful things to do.
对我来说，这些都是有用的事情。
But the idea that this is all happening at one snapshot, that's how we used to think of it.
但这一切都发生在一个瞬间，这就是我们过去的想法。
We used to think of it as light bulbs went off, you memorize the picture, and you're done.
我们过去认为它就像灯泡熄灭一样，你记住了图片，然后你就完成了。
But that's not how any of the idea is.
但任何想法都不是这样的。
It's not how math is viewed.
这不是看待数学的方式。
It's not how language is organized in our brain as a series of these memorization events.
这并不是语言在我们大脑中作为一系列记忆事件的组织方式。
We're trying to make use of it.
我们正在尝试利用它。
Michael Kilgard: And what's going to be useful is hard to anticipate, hard to predict.
迈克尔·基尔加德：什么是有用的是很难预料的，很难预测。
So, I like to think of it sort of from an information point of view.
所以，我喜欢从信息的角度来思考它。
How many bits of information?
有多少位信息？
So, a bit of information is just a yes or a no. And we now live in a world where a floppy drive doesn't have a kilobit.
所以，一点信息只是一个“是”或“否”。我们现在生活在一个软盘驱动器没有千位的世界。
You know, they're not a megabit-
你知道，它们不是兆比特-
Andrew Huberman: Some people won't even know what a floppy drive is.
Andrew Huberman：有些人甚至不知道软盘驱动器是什么。
But we're dating ourselves.
但我们正在和自己约会。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
You could get gigabits.
你可以获得千兆位。
You can get terabits.
您可以获得太比特。
So, we're talking about billions, trillions of bits.
所以，我们谈论的是数十亿、数万亿比特。
And you wonder how much did you learn when you were going up to the plate and you were going to hit the ball?
你想知道当你走向本垒并准备击球时你学到了多少东西？
Well, this pitcher makes a particular look when he's going to give a slider.
好吧，当这位投手要投出滑球时，他的表情会很特别。
This person gives a particular glint in their eye when they're about to say something mean.
当这个人要说一些刻薄的话时，他们的眼睛里会发出特别的光芒。
Each way you watch that person is giving you information about what's happening in the future.
你观察那个人的每一种方式都在向你提供有关未来发生的事情的信息。
But you have to be there, and you have to see that person having that experience.
但你必须在那里，你必须看到那个人有那种经历。
Michael Kilgard: Now as the ball is traveling down to you, or as the person is about to, you know, pull the ball away from you in the Charlie Brown analogy, or whatever the experience is, having that sequence of events, you have a prediction.
迈克尔·基尔加德：现在，当球向你下方移动时，或者当那个人即将，你知道，在查理·布朗的类比中将球从你身边拉开时，或者无论经历是什么，经历了这一系列事件，你就有了一个预测。
It's pretty low reliability that this is going to be a slider.
这将是一个滑块，可靠性相当低。
Then I start to see, 'Hey, it looks like a slider.' Then I swing at it, and I miss, and I say, "That was a slider.
然后我开始看到，“嘿，它看起来像一个滑块。”然后我向它挥杆，但没击中，我说：“那是一个滑块。
I missed that one." Then I think about it at the end of the day, and I go back, and for many of us, you dream about it.
我错过了那个。”然后我在一天结束时思考它，然后我回去，对于我们许多人来说，你会梦想它。
Michael Kilgard: What is all that about?
迈克尔·基尔加德：这是怎么回事？
My original interest in neuroplasticity actually came because something happened to me, and not something I chose to happen.
我最初对神经可塑性的兴趣实际上是因为发生在我身上的事情，而不是我选择发生的事情。
I worked in a lab, in college, squeezing the salivary glands of Drosophila.
我在大学的实验室里工作，挤压果蝇的唾液腺。
So, the little maggots in the fruit flies.
所以，果蝇里的小蛆。
If you squeeze them, they have these banded patterns, which is where all their DNA and their chromatin, the organization of the DNA is organized.
如果你挤压它们，它们就会有这些带状图案，这是它们所有 DNA 和染色质（DNA 组织）的组织结构。
And my job was to look and find, it looked like barcodes.
我的工作就是寻找并发现它看起来像条形码。
So, it'd be a thick line, thick line, thin line, thin line, thick line, thick line.
所以，它是一条粗线，粗线，细线，细线，粗线，粗线。
Andrew Huberman: Like in the saliva?
Andrew Huberman：就像在唾液中一样？
Michael Kilgard: It's actually in the cells.
迈克尔·基尔加德：它实际上在细胞中。
It's a syncytium, so about 900 cells all fused together to make one cell.
它是一个合胞体，大约 900 个细胞融合在一起形成一个细胞。
All the DNA then aligns when you stain it.
当你染色时，所有的 DNA 都会对齐。
This is in Ron Davis' lab at Baylor College of Medicine.
这是在贝勒医学院罗恩·戴维斯的实验室里。
But when I would close my eyes, I didn't see what I normally saw.
但当我闭上眼睛时，我就看不到平常看到的东西了。
What I saw were these bands, because I'd been staring every day at these patterns.
我看到的是这些带子，因为我每天都盯着这些图案。
And that happened to me several more times.
这种事在我身上又发生了好几次。
When I spent a lot of time with that focus and that friction you're talking about, suddenly you start thinking about it differently.
当我花了很多时间关注你所说的焦点和摩擦时，突然你开始以不同的方式思考它。
Michael Kilgard: I had a conversation with a young man a few days ago.
迈克尔·基尔加德：几天前我和一个年轻人交谈过。
His native language is Spanish, but he told me, "I think my native language is English, because I only think in English.
他的母语是西班牙语，但他告诉我，“我认为我的母语是英语，因为我只用英语思考。
And when I talk to my mom, I have to translate." And they told me when I took Spanish, you'd eventually dream in Spanish.
当我和妈妈说话时，我必须翻译。”他们告诉我，当我学习西班牙语时，你最终会用西班牙语做梦。
And I did a few times, but I never quite got good enough.
我也做了几次，但我从来都不够好。
So, that idea that when you have a really significant experience, you can close your eyes and see it.
所以，当你有一次真正重要的经历时，你可以闭上眼睛看到它。
Michael Kilgard: I believe that baseball pitchers are seeing the balls being thrown, the signs being given.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我相信棒球投手正在看到球被投掷，所发出的信号。
I believe that someone who's playing violin really well, or a neuroscientist who's doing surgery, they see those things.
我相信小提琴拉得很好的人，或者正在做手术的神经科学家，他们会看到这些东西。
And that's a repetition.
这是一个重复。
We now know from Olympic skiers that if you do all your time skiing, you're gonna wreck your knees.
我们现在从奥运会滑雪运动员那里知道，如果你一直在滑雪，你的膝盖就会受伤。
So, they spend a lot of time in visualization.
因此，他们花了很多时间在可视化上。
They spend a lot of time imagining what's going on, stepping through the motions, because it's too dangerous to go down the hill at that speed too many times.
他们花很多时间想象正在发生的事情，一步步走过场，因为以这样的速度下山太多次太危险了。
You'll eventually wreck your knees or break your back.
你最终会弄伤你的膝盖或折断你的背部。
Michael Kilgard: But practicing it can be done offline, and that practicing, the neurons don't know.
迈克尔·基尔加德：但是练习可以离线进行，而神经元并不知道练习的情况。
So long as you're engaged, so long as you're modified by it, that's sufficient.
只要你投入其中，只要你被它改变，那就足够了。
The problem is you're not learning anything new if you're just visualizing it.
问题是，如果你只是想象它，你就不会学到任何新东西。
Where's the feedback from the world?
世界的反馈在哪里？
There's not.
没有。
But you get the repetitions.
但你会得到重复。
And so, that idea that we can combine...
所以，我们可以结合的想法......
And again, many, many traditions for thousands of years have had these kinds of notions, you should go back and repeat these aspects to us.
再说一遍，几千年来很多很多的传统都有这样的观念，你应该回去向我们重复这些方面。
We need that extra benefit.
我们需要额外的好处。
Certainly that we should sleep.
当然，我们应该睡觉。
Michael Kilgard: There are no cultures that say don't sleep.
迈克尔·基尔加德：没有任何文化规定不睡觉。
These are well-received, good ideas.
这些都是很受欢迎的好主意。
We're now learning, how does that work?
我们现在正在学习，这是如何运作的？
And I'm personally excited about the idea that it's about the connections.
我个人对它与联系有关的想法感到兴奋。
We had this idea from thousands of years ago.
我们在几千年前就有了这个想法。
There are four or five things that could be in balance or out of balance.
有四五件事可能处于平衡或不平衡。
They were famously blood, phlegm, black bile, and yellow bile.
它们是著名的血液、痰、黑胆汁和黄胆汁。
And they could be in different levels, and the levels were all that were needed.
它们可以处于不同的级别，而级别就足够了。
Michael Kilgard: And that made a lot of categories.
迈克尔·基尔加德：这产生了很多类别。
Because with four things at several different levels, you can make lots of categories.
因为有四个不同级别的事物，您可以进行很多类别。
And the Myers-Briggs personality test, you take a few dimensions and you can kind of explain anything.
迈尔斯-布里格斯性格测试，你可以从几个维度来解释任何事情。
But whether that's really how we work, where we really are too much blood, too much bile, too much phlegm, or even too much serotonin, too much norepinephrine, too much dopamine, maybe there's more to us.
但无论这真的是我们的工作方式，我们真的有太多的血液、太多的胆汁、太多的痰，甚至太多的血清素、太多的去甲肾上腺素、太多的多巴胺，也许我们还有更多的东西。
Well, what could it be besides that?
嗯，除此之外还能是什么？
Michael Kilgard: And the answer is, I think, the experiments from our forefathers, Ramón y Cajal, Camillo Golgi said, "It's the connections." And we went, "What do you mean connections?
迈克尔·基尔加德：我认为，答案是我们的祖先拉蒙·卡哈尔、卡米洛·高尔基所说的实验：“这就是联系。”我们接着问：“你说的联系是什么意思？
What would the connections do?"
这些联系会起什么作用？”
Michael Kilgard: And now we know from some beautiful studies come out recently, it's 150 trillion of these things, inside my brain, inside your brain, inside each of our listeners' brains.
Michael Kilgard：现在我们从最近发表的一些精彩研究中得知，在我的大脑中、在你的大脑中、在我们每个听众的大脑中，有 150 万亿个这样的东西。
And how did they get to be the way they are?
他们是怎么变成现在这个样子的？
Did the genes make them?
基因造就了它们吗？
The genes?
基因？
There's only three billion base pairs in the genes.
基因中只有三十亿个碱基对。
Not nearly enough.
还远远不够。
We only have 20,000 proteins.
我们只有 20,000 种蛋白质。
How could 20,000 make 150 trillion?
2万怎么能赚到150万亿呢？
They couldn't.
他们不能。
Michael Kilgard: Genes are critical.
迈克尔·基尔加德：基因至关重要。
They set us up to learn, but they're not enough to tell us how we work.
它们帮助我们学习，但不足以告诉我们如何工作。
And I think that's true.
我认为这是真的。
But the genes are interacting with our experiences.
但基因正在与我们的经历相互作用。
As we listen, as we hear, our brain is being rewired, whether it's for Japanese, or English, or Swedish, whatever it might be.
当我们聆听时，我们的大脑正在被重新连接，无论是日语、英语还是瑞典语，无论是什么。
Our brains can learn anything.
我们的大脑可以学习任何东西。
We can fly the space shuttle.
我们可以驾驶航天飞机。
You and I can fly the space shuttle.
你和我可以驾驶航天飞机。
We can do brain surgery.
我们可以做脑部手术。
All of us can.
我们所有人都可以。
Just takes practice.
只需要练习即可。
That's the miraculous nature of the way our neurons work.
这就是我们神经元工作方式的神奇本质。
Michael Kilgard: And what's surprising to me is, I think we're close to figuring it out.
迈克尔·基尔加德：令我惊讶的是，我认为我们已经接近解决这个问题了。
How do the neurons work?
神经元如何工作？
1949, this guy Donald Hebb said, "Fire together, wire together." That's it.
1949 年，唐纳德·赫布 (Donald Hebb) 说道：“一起开火，一起布线。”就是这样。
A lot of us went, "Does that make any sense?
我们很多人都说：“这有意义吗？
If all of the neurons who fired, all wire together, wouldn't everything just fire together and everything just wire together and you'd have a seizure?" And the answer is that's exactly what happens.
如果所有放电的神经元都连接在一起，那么不是所有的东西都一起放电，所有的东西都连接在一起，你就会癫痫发作吗？”答案正是如此。
Michael Kilgard: So, his intuition, though partly right, that the covariance, the co-occurring of these events is an important aspect of learning, it's not so simple.
迈克尔·基尔加德：所以，他的直觉虽然部分正确，但协方差、这些事件的同时发生是学习的一个重要方面，但事情并不那么简单。
We found out that the neuron that fires a little late, they both fire together, but the neuron that fires a little bit late, instead of long-term potentiation, strengthening the connection, we get long-term depression, weakening.
我们发现，发射得晚一点的神经元，它们一起发射，但是发射得晚一点的神经元，不是长期增强，加强连接，而是长期抑制，减弱。
We've been working on the brain a hundred years, but we really only figured this out about 25 years ago.
我们对大脑的研究已经有一百年了，但我们直到大约 25 年前才真正弄清楚这一点。
Michael Kilgard: And then the fact that none of that happens, no firing together, wiring together, no out of sync, fail to link, none of that happens if the neuromodulators don't arrive.
迈克尔·基尔加德：事实上，如果神经调节器没有到达，这些都不会发生，不会一起发射，不会连接在一起，不会不同步，不会连接失败，这些都不会发生。
And the neuromodulators arrive a couple seconds later.
几秒钟后神经调节剂到达。
So, the timing, whether to strengthen or weaken, is a millisecond, a thousandth of a second, says strong or weak?
那么，加强或减弱的时机，是毫秒、千分之一秒，是说强还是弱？
Which way should I go with it?
我应该走哪条路呢？
And then I've got this two-second window that says sometime within a couple seconds, did it work?
然后我得到了这个两秒的窗口，在几秒钟内的某个时间，它起作用了吗？
Was that a win or a loss?
那是赢还是输？
Michael Kilgard: And if nothing happens, if it just wasn't important at all, then it all just gets flushed.
迈克尔·基尔加德：如果什么都没发生，如果它根本不重要，那么一切都会被冲淡。
In one ear, out the other.
一只耳朵进，另一只耳朵出。
You just forget it.
你只是忘了它。
But when something exciting happens, you get release of acetylcholine, norepinephrine.
但当令人兴奋的事情发生时，你就会释放乙酰胆碱和去甲肾上腺素。
These things go into the brain.
这些东西进入大脑。
They bind to receptors.
它们与受体结合。
They change what's happening inside the cell.
它们改变细胞内发生的事情。
And that computation is really sophisticated, and we don't have 100 billion things making that computation.
这种计算非常复杂，我们没有 1000 亿个东西来进行这种计算。
We have a thousand trillion running that computation.
我们有一千万亿来运行这个计算。
Michael Kilgard: And that computation is much more sophisticated than the computation that's happening when you train a large language network.
Michael Kilgard：这种计算比训练大型语言网络时发生的计算要复杂得多。
Most of your listeners will have heard of artificial intelligence, machine learning, have some basic idea, but we know how that works because we built it.
大多数听众都听说过人工智能、机器学习，有一些基本的想法，但我们知道它是如何工作的，因为我们构建了它。
And it doesn't work how you and I work.
你我的工作方式并不行。
It's a big, giant global learning signal and we just keep running around feeding it back in, and everybody learns, this is the right answer, and it threads through the entire network.
这是一个巨大的全球学习信号，我们不断地反馈它，每个人都知道，这是正确的答案，并且它贯穿整个网络。
Right and wrong is told to every single neuron in the network.
网络中的每个神经元都被告知是非对错。
It's something called gradient descent.
这就是所谓的梯度下降。
Michael Kilgard: And that process of improving the network, making it better and better and better at predicting has led to the revolution we've seen in artificial intelligence.
迈克尔·基尔加德：改进网络、使其预测能力越来越强的过程引发了我们在人工智能领域看到的革命。
What's cool is that our network is cooler.
很酷的是我们的网络更酷。
It's way bigger.
它更大了。
ChatGPT has 540 billion weights.
ChatGPT 有 5400 亿个权重。
We are 150 trillion.
我们有150万亿。
So, that makes each of us, 500 times bigger in scale.
所以，这使得我们每个人的规模都扩大了 500 倍。
And instead of requiring huge amounts of energy, a light bulb is all it takes.
而且不需要大量的能量，只需要一个灯泡就可以了。
Michael Kilgard: Eat a hamburger a day, you have plenty of food, you can learn all day long with that amount of energy.
迈克尔·基尔加德：每天吃一个汉堡，你就有足够的食物，你可以用那么多的精力学习一整天。
There's not that much energy in a hamburger.
汉堡里没有那么多能量。
Michael Kilgard: And that's miraculous.
迈克尔·基尔加德：这太神奇了。
And so, I think there's a lot of worry that when we learn about the brain, it will devalue humanity.
因此，我认为人们非常担心，当我们了解大脑时，它会贬低人类的价值。
We'll be less impressive.
我们会变得不那么令人印象深刻。
We'll be less exciting.
我们会变得不那么令人兴奋。
I've just seen the opposite my whole career.
我在整个职业生涯中都看到了相反的情况。
If we were just genes, then you'd have eugenics, you'd have all these problems, you'd have people who are valued based on whether their genes are right or wrong.
如果我们只是基因，那么就会有优生学，就会遇到所有这些问题，就会有根据基因正确与否来评价人们的人。
Turns out the 20,000 genes doesn't explain us.
事实证明，20,000 个基因并不能解释我们。
The hundreds of cell types don't explain us.
数百种细胞类型并不能解释我们。
Michael Kilgard: It's the synapses.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是突触。
I think for a long time, we were hoping there'd be an easy fix.
我想很长一段时间以来，我们都希望能有一个简单的解决方案。
If someone had a problem, it'd be nice.
如果有人遇到问题，那就太好了。
If they just had too much blood, we can give them some leeches, drain the blood out, they'd be back to good, right?
如果他们血太多了，我们可以给他们一些水蛭，把血排掉，他们就会恢复正常，对吧？
That's how George Washington died.
乔治·华盛顿就是这样去世的。
But now we're learning, most people don't have four or five things that are right or wrong.
但现在我们了解到，大多数人并没有四五件事情是对的或错的。
They've got billions, but they're all changeable at any stage in life.
他们拥有数十亿美元，但在人生的任何阶段都可能发生变化。
They get really hard, don't disagree.
他们真的很难，不要不同意。
To lose an accent, for example, or to get over a traumatic event.
例如，失去口音，或者克服创伤事件。
It could be really difficult.
这可能真的很困难。
Michael Kilgard: But the fact is, the brain is plastic until the very day you die.
迈克尔·基尔加德：但事实是，直到你死的那一天，大脑都是可塑的。
And that ability now to get our head around; what does billions of connections mean?
现在我们有能力保持头脑清醒；数十亿连接意味着什么？
What is all this information for?
所有这些信息有什么用？
It's informing me.
它在通知我。
Not just to make us better to beat someone else on a test or anything else like that, but it's just part of who I am.
不仅仅是为了让我们更好地在测试或类似的事情上击败别人，但这只是我的一部分。
When I look at a cloud, I've never seen that cloud before.
当我看云时，我以前从未见过那朵云。
When I hear a baby coo, or I pet a cat, all those experiences are really information rich, right?
当我听到婴儿的咕咕叫声，或者抚摸一只猫时，所有这些经历都包含着丰富的信息，对吗？
Michael Kilgard: Different cats feel different, different clouds look different, different babies make different sounds.
迈克尔·基尔加德：不同的猫感觉不同，不同的云看起来不同，不同的婴儿发出不同的声音。
And the fact that I get my unique experience, you get your unique experience, is what our great, great, great, great grandfathers told us, that we were unique and special.
事实上，我得到了我独特的经历，你也得到了你独特的经历，这就是我们的曾曾祖父告诉我们的，我们是独一无二的。
And then a lot of people looked at the clockwork universe and said, "No, no, no. It's all very deterministic.
然后很多人看着发条宇宙并说：“不，不，不。这一切都是确定性的。
It's all very fixed.
一切都是非常固定的。
It's all very rigid.
一切都非常僵化。
You're just a machine that does what it's told." It doesn't really seem right.
你只是一台按照指令行事的机器。”看起来确实不太对劲。
Michael Kilgard: The math guys now tell us as soon as you put three things together in a non-linear way, it's hard to predict what it's going to do.
迈克尔·基尔加德：数学家现在告诉我们，一旦你以非线性方式将三件事放在一起，就很难预测它会发生什么。
And the computer scientists in the world, my brother's one of them, have finally admitted; we don't fully understand what it's doing.
世界上的计算机科学家，我哥哥就是其中之一，终于承认了；我们并不完全理解它在做什么。
We don't even know how you could understand it.
我们甚至不知道你如何理解它。
It's so rich and complicated, and we're now okay with that.
它是如此丰富和复杂，但我们现在已经接受了。
That kind of humility about what computers are doing, and how they're working, can reflect back on our own bodies where I don't know exactly why I make every decision.
这种对计算机正在做什么以及如何工作的谦逊态度可以反映在我们自己的身体上，因为我不知道为什么我会做出每一个决定。
Michael Kilgard: I say lots of things I regret and go, "Oh, I shouldn't have said that." All of us do.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我说了很多让我后悔的话，然后说：“哦，我不应该这么说。”我们所有人都这样做。
But the idea that I can change it, and I can make amends for that, I can say, "That wasn't what I meant to say.
但我可以改变它，我可以弥补这一点，我可以说，“那不是我想说的。
I apologize for that," that's really exciting that there's a biological basis for it.
我对此表示歉意，”这确实令人兴奋，因为它有生物学基础。
And it's this four factor learning rule, where there's some proteins, receptors that are having binding of glutamate, and serotonin, and norepinephrine, all these words you've talked about before, but they add up to something.
这就是这个四因素学习规则，其中有一些蛋白质、与谷氨酸、血清素和去甲肾上腺素结合的受体，所有这些词你之前都谈到过，但它们加起来就构成了一些东西。
Michael Kilgard: They don't eliminate me, they add up to me.
迈克尔·基尔加德：他们并没有消灭我，而是将我加起来。
And I think that's something we can really be proud of.
我认为这是我们真正值得自豪的事情。
And I think your getting this information out to audiences is really exciting, because people have the right to know this.
我认为你向观众传达这些信息真的很令人兴奋，因为人们有权知道这一点。
Your taxpayer money has paid for all this knowledge.
您的纳税人的钱已经支付了所有这些知识。
We've learned all this stuff, and it has real implications, whether it's for how we treat people with disability, how we treat our elders, how we treat people who've committed crimes.
我们已经学到了所有这些东西，它具有真正的影响，无论是我们如何对待残疾人，我们如何对待我们的老年人，我们如何对待犯罪的人。
All these things have implications.
所有这些事情都有影响。
And I'm not saying everyone needs to become a neuroscientist by any means, but it's not just a curiosity.
我并不是说每个人都需要以任何方式成为一名神经科学家，但这不仅仅是一种好奇心。
Michael Kilgard: It's not just a laboratory trick we wanted to work out.
Michael Kilgard：我们想要解决的不仅仅是实验室技巧。
This understanding has implications, and we've been building, as our forefathers did in other fields, physics and all the rest.
这种理解是有影响的，我们一直在努力建设，就像我们的祖先在其他领域、物理学和其他领域所做的那样。
They've built all the way where their model of physics is pretty good.
他们已经建立了非常好的物理模型。
Our model of the brain is not there yet.
我们的大脑模型还不存在。
We're not at that level of understanding everything, but moving in that direction, toward eventually being able to find some child, or some older person who's got a real problem, they just can't do it.
我们还没有达到理解一切的水平，但朝着这个方向前进，最终能够找到一些有真正问题的孩子或老人，他们只是做不到。
Michael Kilgard: We can switch from a mode of just labeling them, diagnose and adios, to a new mode of how can we assist you?
迈克尔·基尔加德：我们可以从仅仅给它们贴标签、诊断和再见的模式切换到我们如何帮助您的新模式？
And it might be changing lifestyles, changing diet, changing experiences, changing rhythms, changing friendships.
它可能会改变生活方式、改变饮食、改变经历、改变节奏、改变友谊。
But it might also be, in some cases, there's a real problem.
但在某些情况下，也可能存在真正的问题。
Dopamine cells in the substantia nigra have died.
黑质中的多巴胺细胞已经死亡。
We're going to need to make this change.
我们需要做出这个改变。
We need to put a stimulating electrode in.
我们需要放入刺激电极。
Or if the hair cells in your ears all die, you can't hear.
或者如果你耳朵里的毛细胞全部死亡，你就听不到声音。
We now know why that is.
我们现在知道这是为什么了。
They're not punished by God.
他们没有受到上帝的惩罚。
Michael Kilgard: They can't hear because the little vibrations in the air that we can't see aren't getting into their brain.
迈克尔·基尔加德：他们听不见，因为我们看不到的空气中的微小振动没有进入他们的大脑。
So, we take a cochlear implant, we take a microphone, we record the vibrations, we put it into the brain in the right way, and now many people can hear.
所以，我们植入人工耳蜗，带麦克风，记录振动，以正确的方式将其放入大脑，现在很多人都能听到。
That was a miracle not too long ago.
不久前这还是一个奇迹。
Now it's a technology you can just go buy.
现在这是一项你可以直接购买的技术。
And moving that progress of neuroscientists; some things, like schizophrenia, we've made very little progress on.
推动神经科学家的进步；有些事情，比如精神分裂症，我们在这方面进展甚微。
It's very hard to figure out what we would do, but at least we understand the nature of the disease.
很难弄清楚我们会做什么，但至少我们了解这种疾病的本质。
It's not that they've got a germ, or a bacteria, or a virus.
这并不是说它们有病菌、细菌或病毒。
Michael Kilgard: It's not that their one gene is big and bad and broken.
迈克尔·基尔加德：这并不是说他们的一个基因很大、很糟糕、很破碎。
It's not contagious.
它不具有传染性。
But there's some wiring challenges, and that most days someone with schizophrenia is perfectly normal.
但存在一些接线挑战，而且大多数时候患有精神分裂症的人是完全正常的。
Most people with neurological and psychiatric disorders spend large periods of time normal between periods of migraines or depression.
大多数患有神经和精神疾病的人在偏头痛或抑郁症发作期间都会有很长一段时间保持正常状态。
They are acting totally reasonable.
他们的行为完全合理。
And we want to spend more time, push them more toward those times of health, and satisfaction, and reward, and away from those times of disability, engagement limitations.
我们希望花更多的时间，推动他们更多地走向健康、满足和奖励的时代，远离残疾、参与限制的时代。
And I think we're moving in that direction instead of labeling and putting people off in homes, more to engaging, understanding and then eventually intervening.
我认为我们正在朝这个方向前进，而不是给人们贴上标签，让他们待在家里，而是更多地参与、理解，然后最终进行干预。
Andrew Huberman: I agree that progress is happening fast, and while sometimes it might seem that we're not moving in the right direction, I think neuroscience, in particular, is striving very hard.
Andrew Huberman：我同意进步正在迅速发生，虽然有时我们似乎没有朝着正确的方向前进，但我认为神经科学正在非常努力地努力。
Andrew Huberman: I say in particular because other fields like immunology, in particular, and physics have experienced great advances, as you've pointed out before, over the previous 100 years.
Andrew Huberman：我之所以这么说，是因为正如您之前指出的那样，在过去的 100 年里，其他领域，尤其是免疫学和物理学，都经历了巨大的进步。
Andrew Huberman: Whereas, you know, any time there's been a, you know, pathogen that we've wanted to deal with and humans have put a lot of time and energy toward it, done a pretty good job of dealing with that pathogen.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：然而，你知道，任何时候我们想要对付一种病原体，人类都投入了大量的时间和精力，在处理这种病原体方面做得相当不错。
Andrew Huberman: The same can't be said for neurologic diseases, like Alzheimer's.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：对于阿尔茨海默氏症等神经系统疾病来说，情况并非如此。
I mean, progress is coming, but it's been much more slow, and we don't have cures.
我的意思是，进展正在到来，但进展要慢得多，而且我们没有治愈方法。
We don't have pure solutions.
我们没有纯粹的解决方案。
Andrew Huberman: I want to get into the neuromodulators in some degree of depth as it relates to neuroplasticity, and certainly the incredible work that you're doing with devices, vagal nerve stimulation, and so forth, for treatment of everything from PTSD, to tinnitus.
Andrew Huberman：我想在一定程度上深入探讨神经调节剂，因为它与神经可塑性有关，当然还有你在设备、迷走神经刺激等方面所做的令人难以置信的工作，用于治疗从创伤后应激障碍到耳鸣的各种疾病。
You have a beautiful paper that came out recently in 'Nature.' Congratulations.
你最近在《自然》杂志上发表了一篇漂亮的论文。恭喜。
We'll provide a link to that paper, as well as some of the others relating to restoration of motor function for people that have restricted motor function for various reasons.
我们将提供该论文的链接，以及其他一些与因各种原因运动功能受限的人恢复运动功能相关的文章。
Andrew Huberman: Before I do that, I can't help but raise once again this sort of mental model of plasticity that I'm trying to build out as we go along here, whereby focus and friction seem to be prerequisites.
安德鲁·休伯曼：在我这样做之前，我忍不住再次提出这种可塑性的心理模型，当我们在这里讨论时，我试图建立这种模型，其中焦点和摩擦似乎是先决条件。
Andrew Huberman: And I mentioned sleep.
Andrew Huberman：我提到了睡眠。
You added to that, reflection.
你补充说，反思。
And I just really want to underscore that, and certainly add it to this list that I'm building here.
我真的想强调这一点，并且肯定会将其添加到我在这里构建的列表中。
Because about six months ago, I did an episode on how best to study and learn.
因为大约六个月前，我制作了一集关于如何最好地学习和学习的节目。
Michael Kilgard: Mm-hmm.
迈克尔·基尔加德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And I went into the literature.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我进入了文学领域。
I know what my study habits and tools are, and what I've used over the years.
我知道我的学习习惯和工具是什么，以及这些年来我使用过什么。
But I went into the literature, the peer-reviewed literature, and there were a number of takeaways, but perhaps the most salient one was that students who self-test learn much faster, and the information they learn is much more durable over time, they forget a lot less of it than any other method.
但我查阅了文献，经过同行评审的文献，得到了很多结论，但也许最突出的一点是，自测的学生学得更快，而且他们学到的信息随着时间的推移更持久，他们忘记的信息比任何其他方法都要少得多。
Andrew Huberman: So, tests are not just a way for others to evaluate us, but for us to evaluate ourselves.
Andrew Huberman：所以，测试不仅是别人评估我们的一种方式，也是我们评估自己的一种方式。
And it created a whole different picture of learning and memory for me, because a simple statement made by a psychologist, not a neuroscientist, was when something like, you know, self-testing protects against...
它为我创造了一幅完全不同的学习和记忆图景，因为心理学家而不是神经科学家所做的一个简单声明是，自我测试之类的东西可以防止......
It's anti-forgetting.
这是反遗忘的。
Michael Kilgard: Mm-hmm.
迈克尔·基尔加德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And most of learning is just intervening in the forgetting process.
Andrew Huberman：大多数学习只是干预遗忘过程。
Just like there are a number of stimuli in this particular interaction that, unfortunately, I will forget, or fortunately, perhaps.
就像在这种特定的互动中存在许多刺激一样，不幸的是，我会忘记，或者幸运的是，也许。
So, the irrelevant stimuli I won't remember.
所以，不相关的刺激我不会记得。
Andrew Huberman: And so, so much of what we learn is really about what we don't forget.
Andrew Huberman：所以，我们学到的很多东西实际上都是我们不会忘记的东西。
It might seem like a trivial distinction to kind of flip it that way, but self-testing being key.
以这种方式翻转它似乎是一个微不足道的区别，但自我测试是关键。
And I think this element of reflection and mental rehearsal is so key.
我认为反思和心理演练的要素非常关键。
Andrew Huberman: I think, again, I don't want to demonize social media, but I think that one of the downsides of smartphones and social media is that after we leave a lecture or a movie or a social interaction, in the past, prior to 2010 say, the tendency was to walk to one's car, drive home, maybe think about that interaction, think about what was good, think about what was bad, maybe let it kind of stew in us a bit.
Andrew Huberman：我想再说一遍，我不想妖魔化社交媒体，但我认为智能手机和社交媒体的缺点之一是，在我们结束一场讲座、一场电影或一次社交互动后，过去，在 2010 年之前，我们的趋势是步行到自己的车旁，开车回家，也许会考虑一下这种互动，想想什么是好的，什么是坏的，也许让它在我们心里有点炖。
And now we tend to look at our phone and start getting additional stimuli that I think collides with, and occludes the learning that would have occurred.
现在，我们倾向于看手机并开始接受额外的刺激，我认为这些刺激会发生冲突，并阻碍本来会发生的学习。
So, we don't get a lot of opportunity for reflection.
所以，我们没有太多反思的机会。
Andrew Huberman: There's a lot of sensory input.
Andrew Huberman：有很多感官输入。
Some of it's deprived, some of it's rich, but there's not a lot of time for reflection.
有些是匮乏的，有些是富有的，但没有太多时间反思。
So, reflection and self-testing, kind of falling into the same bin and reinforcing learning and plasticity.
因此，反思和自我测试，有点落入同一个垃圾箱，并加强学习和可塑性。
Andrew Huberman: The other one was that you talked about visualization, and these skiers who, to avoid harming themselves, they'd use visualization, as opposed to just more and more runs down the slope.
安德鲁·休伯曼：另一个是你谈到了可视化，这些滑雪者为了避免伤害自己，他们会使用可视化，而不是越来越多地沿着斜坡奔跑。
Andrew Huberman: We've heard before, all of us, that, you know, when you imagine an experience, the brain doesn't know the difference between that experience and a real-world experience.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我们所有人以前都听说过，当你想象一种体验时，大脑不知道这种体验与现实世界的体验之间的区别。
But, of course, a real-world experience includes other things.
但是，当然，现实世界的体验还包括其他内容。
Andrew Huberman: There's, you know, vestibular feedback.
Andrew Huberman：你知道，有前庭反馈。
There's gravity feedback, you know, feedback with our relationship to gravity, to put it in common terms.
通俗地说，就是重力反馈，即我们与重力关系的反馈。
There's all sorts of stuff.
有各种各样的东西。
The wind in our ears.
我们耳边的风。
Andrew Huberman: And you said, and I find this very interesting and very useful, that visualization and mental rehearsal can be useful for reinforcing things that we've already done in the real world, but it's probably not the best way to learn new things that we haven't done in the real world.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你说，我发现这非常有趣且非常有用，可视化和心理演练对于强化我们在现实世界中已经做过的事情很有用，但这可能不是学习我们在现实世界中尚未做过的新事情的最佳方式。
So, we can pick any number of different examples, but I think people are smart enough to just leap to those on their own.
所以，我们可以选择任意数量的不同例子，但我认为人们足够聪明，可以自己跳到这些例子。
Andrew Huberman: So, if they're trying to learn something, and they're doing that in the real world, dancing, maybe it's a physical skill, maybe it's a cognitive skill, maybe it's an emotional skill, mental rehearsal is useful, is what I hear you saying, provided that you're rehearsing something that you actually did, as opposed to just imagining something and expecting that you're going to be able to do that something.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，如果他们想学习一些东西，并且他们在现实世界中这样做，比如跳舞，也许这是一种身体技能，也许是一种认知技能，也许是一种情感技能，心理排练是有用的，这就是我听到你说的，前提是你正在排练你实际做过的事情，而不是仅仅想象一些事情并期望你能够做到这一点。
Do I have that right?
我有这个权利吗？
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
No, I think that's exactly right.
不，我认为这是完全正确的。
I mean, if you know you're not going to need it, biology would have said, "You don't need this." It's a leaf that's wiggling in the air.
我的意思是，如果你知道你不需要它，生物学就会说，“你不需要这个。”这是一片在空中摇曳的叶子。
I don't need to know where that leaf is.
我不需要知道那片叶子在哪里。
Michael Kilgard: But this is the thing that cues me to where I'm going to find my next meal.
迈克尔·基尔加德：但这就是提示我去哪里寻找下一顿饭的东西。
That's going to be something I'm going to be interested in.
这将是我感兴趣的事情。
If this is going to help me get a mate, I'm going to learn that.
如果这能帮助我找到伴侣，我就会学习。
If this is going to be an irrelevant fact about a cloud, I'm not going to.
如果这将成为与云无关的事实，我不会这样做。
Michael Kilgard: And I think children have a lot of trouble with that at the stage in childhood where they'll see a plane up there and they'll say, "Oh my God, there's a little plane up there." That plane has no interaction with you at all, but they're fascinated by it.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我认为孩子们在童年阶段会遇到很多麻烦，他们会看到那里有一架飞机，他们会说，“天哪，那里有一架小飞机。” 那架飞机与你完全没有互动，但他们却对此着迷。
They're cued into it.
他们被暗示了。
They're interested in it.
他们对此很感兴趣。
We all the time have to figure out, what are the things we're going to be tested on?
我们一直都必须弄清楚，我们要测试的是什么？
What are the things you're going to need to know?
您需要了解哪些事情？
And one of the ways you do that as educators, we both do, is you give them tests.
作为教育工作者，我们所做的方法之一就是给他们进行测试。
And a lot of people say, "I can't wait to have the last test." Really?
很多人说，“我迫不及待地想进行最后一次测试。”真的吗？
You want to have no more time when someone judges and determines, how'd you do?
你不想再有时间让别人评判和决定，你怎么做？
What is your evaluation?
您的评价是什么？
Michael Kilgard: I think a lot of times, many of us become lifelong learners, and we're comfortable knowing that someone else knows more than me.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我想很多时候，我们中的许多人都成为终身学习者，并且我们很高兴知道别人比我懂得更多。
I'm not going to win, but that I'll be able to find out, how much did I do, that I know what's possible, and testing is good for us.
我不会赢，但我将能够发现，我做了多少，我知道什么是可能的，测试对我们有好处。
Michael Kilgard: Educators do it not just to assign, and rank, and distribute, and give Bs, and Cs, and Ds, but someone says, "You could do better than that.
迈克尔·基尔加德：教育工作者这样做不仅仅是为了分配、排名、分配和给予 B、C 和 D，但有人说，“你可以做得更好。
If you got a D, you could have done better." I'm not saying you're flawed.
如果你得了D，你本来可以做得更好。”我并不是说你有缺陷。
I'm saying you didn't put in whatever was needed.
我是说你没有投入任何需要的东西。
And maybe that person does need to put more work in to get the B, or even the A.
也许那个人确实需要付出更多的努力才能获得 B，甚至 A。
But it's not my opinion that they can't get it, it's that they didn't get it.
但我认为不是他们得不到，而是他们没有得到。
Michael Kilgard: Explaining what's real.
迈克尔·基尔加德：解释什么是真实的。
What percent did you know?
你知道百分之几？
What did you actually learn?
你实际上学到了什么？
How good are you at throwing the tomahawk, at shooting the arrow, at doing rock climbing?
您投掷战斧、射箭、攀岩的能力如何？
Michael Kilgard: The visualization I'm thinking about is, like, from 'Free Solo,' when he's imagining doing this.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我正在考虑的可视化是来自“Free Solo”，当他想象这样做时。
He's already done it, but he's now going through imagining it again.
他已经做到了，但现在他又开始想象了。
All of us do that.
我们所有人都这样做。
Michael Kilgard: My children did martial arts, so they're both black belts in Taekwondo, and they would practice these forms.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我的孩子们练习武术，所以他们都是跆拳道黑带，他们会练习这些形式。
I took it at Berkeley when I was a student there, and I just really enjoyed it.
当我还是伯克利的学生时，我在伯克利学习了它，我真的很喜欢它。
Is it useful?
有用吗？
I've never been in a street fight.
我从来没有参加过街头斗殴。
I've never needed to apply these skills.
我从来不需要应用这些技能。
But there was a beauty to it, there was a usefulness to it, and someone came and tested me.
但它有它的美，它的用处，有人来测试我。
I made it to yellow belt, full disclosure.
我已经达到黄带了，完全公开。
But I was going to need to know it, and so I knew I would stand in front of other people and admit, "I didn't learn it.
但我需要知道它，所以我知道我会站在其他人面前承认：“我没有学过。
I wanted to learn it, but I didn't learn it."
我想学，但没学好。”
Michael Kilgard: Knowing that someone, a mentor you respect, a peer you value, a spouse who cares about you, whatever it is, is going to look and say, "How'd you do?" I don't think that's harmful, judgmental, negative.
迈克尔·基尔加德：知道有人，你尊敬的导师，你重视的同伴，关心你的配偶，无论是什么，都会看着并说，“你怎么样？”我不认为这是有害的、批判性的、消极的。
It's not part of the culture of exceptionalism and meritocracy.
它不是例外论和精英文化的一部分。
That's just, "Give me some feedback.
那只是，“给我一些反馈。
How am I doing?" And a lot of times we can do extraordinary things when people do raise the bar on us a little bit, and that can be very self-fulfilling.
我怎么样？”很多时候，当人们稍微提高我们的标准时，我们就可以做出非凡的事情，这可以是非常自我实现的。
Michael Kilgard: Certainly an over test-focused culture.
迈克尔·基尔加德：当然是一种过度注重测试的文化。
My mom was a master primary education educator.
我的妈妈是一位小学教育大师。
She didn't really care very much for all of the testing focused stuff.
她不太关心所有以测试为重点的东西。
She thought, "I've got to get this kid to learn how to interact well with others and put away his crayons.
她想：“我必须让这个孩子学会如何与他人良好互动，并收起他的蜡笔。
I don't need to worry about these particular flashcard-based skills."
我不需要担心这些基于抽认卡的特定技能。”
Michael Kilgard: But we go back and forth.
迈克尔·基尔加德：但我们会来来回回。
With the times table, is that really important, memorizing how multiplication works?
有了乘法表，记住乘法的原理真的很重要吗？
Or should you spend your time with all the states, 50 states and all their state capitals?
或者您应该把时间花在所有州、50 个州及其所有州首府吗？
I don't have an answer.
我没有答案。
I'm not here to tell you that I know what the right thing to do is.
我来这里并不是要告诉你我知道什么是正确的做法。
I don't know all the state capitals.
我不知道所有州的首府。
My children do.
我的孩子们就是这样。
Is that useful?
那有用吗？
I don't know whether that's going to come out valuable.
我不知道这是否会有价值。
And that's one of the exciting things about life.
这就是生活中令人兴奋的事情之一。
You don't know what's going to be helpful.
你不知道什么会有帮助。
Michael Kilgard: Maybe playing a lot of video games is going to turn out to be really helpful.
迈克尔·基尔加德：也许玩很多电子游戏会非常有帮助。
Have to have enough humility.
要有足够的谦虚。
I think certainly one of the things I know you've experienced as a scientist is just the incredible humility that comes from recognizing this thing is way more complicated than how I'm thinking about it.
我想当然，我知道你作为一名科学家所经历的一件事就是认识到这件事比我想象的要复杂得多而产生的令人难以置信的谦逊。
It just is.
确实如此。
We start there.
我们从那里开始。
We know that.
我们知道这一点。
And we're okay with that.
我们对此表示同意。
We make our best model, our best explanation of what we've got, the explanation that fits the data that we have now that's as simple as possible.
我们制作最好的模型，对我们所拥有的内容进行最好的解释，与我们现在拥有的数据相匹配的解释尽可能简单。
And the reason we choose the simplest one is it's the easiest to prove wrong when it's inevitably wrong, and we just make this incremental progress.
我们选择最简单的一个的原因是，当它不可避免地错误时，它最容易被证明是错误的，而我们只是不断取得进展。
Michael Kilgard: Life's a lot like that too.
迈克尔·基尔加德：生活也很像这样。
Certainly parenting's a lot like that.
当然，养育子女也很像这样。
I think this is going to be good for the kid, and then, no, this is not good for the kid.
我认为这对孩子有好处，但不，这对孩子不好。
I think this is going to be bad for the kid.
我认为这对孩子来说是不好的。
Oh, that turned out to be a really good learning experience, when they're in tears and there's some big crisis.
哦，事实证明这是一次非常好的学习经历，当他们流泪并且遇到一些大危机时。
So, understanding that we don't know it all, that things are typically neither as bad as they seem or as good as they seem, and that maximizing something, that's kind of one of the key concepts I worry about a little bit.
因此，要明白我们并不了解一切，事情通常既不像看起来那么糟糕，也不像看起来那么好，而最大化某些东西，这是我有点担心的关键概念之一。
Min maxima, min maximizing.
最小最大，最小最大化。
Minimizing all the bad things, and maximizing all the good things assumes you know which things are bad and should be minimized, which things are good and should be maximized.
最小化所有坏事并最大化所有好事假设您知道哪些事情是坏事并且应该最小化，哪些事情是好的并且应该最大化。
Michael Kilgard: And a lot of times, we come to recognize later in life, oh, many of those things that I really worked hard not to have happen, those are really valuable experiences, because they taught me either how to interact with other people who've had those experiences, or taught me some skill that I didn't know I would need to do.
迈克尔·基尔加德：很多时候，我们会在以后的生活中认识到，哦，很多我真的很努力才没有发生的事情，这些都是非常宝贵的经历，因为它们教会了我如何与其他有过这些经历的人互动，或者教会了我一些我不知道自己需要做的技能。
How to change a tire, or whatever else it is.
如何更换轮胎，或者其他什么。
You don't want your tire to go flat, but then you learn how to change a tire, and now you learn how a scissor jack works, or whatever thing that later comes in handy.
你不希望你的轮胎瘪了，但后来你学会了如何更换轮胎，现在你学会了剪式千斤顶的工作原理，或者任何后来派上用场的东西。
Michael Kilgard: So, to me, it's more the diversity of experiences than the better experiences.
迈克尔·基尔加德：所以，对我来说，更多的是体验的多样性，而不是更好的体验。
And I think right now we're a little bit at a time where there's enough judgment about which experiences should you be having.
我认为现在我们已经对你应该拥有哪些体验有了足够的判断。
Michael Kilgard: I just returned from Yellowstone National Park, and there's a little platform you can look down on Grand Prismatic Spring, and there's people who are just like, "You are looking at a 700-foot-across hot spring on top of a super volcano with rings of different colors of thermophilic bacteria and algae," and you go, "Take my picture and go." And it's just difficult to say, "Stop.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我刚从黄石国家公园回来，那里有一个小平台，你可以俯视大棱镜温泉，有人会说，“你正在看一座超级火山顶部的 700 英尺宽的温泉，上面有不同颜色的嗜热细菌和藻类环，”然后你就说，“拍下我的照片然后走吧。”很难说：“停下来。
Look at how big this is.
看看这有多大。
It will take more time."
这需要更多时间。”
Michael Kilgard: So, I assume that the time you put into it, this is back to your friction idea, the time you put into it is probably proportional to the lasting impact it's going to have on your life.
迈克尔·基尔加德：所以，我认为你投入的时间，这又回到了你的摩擦想法，你投入的时间可能与它将对你的生活产生的持久影响成正比。
Michael Kilgard: And so, when you're checking boxes, looking for things, it's probably not going to have much impact.
迈克尔·基尔加德：所以，当你勾选复选框、寻找东西时，它可能不会产生太大影响。
When you're playing violin for the hundredth hour...
当你拉小提琴第一百个小时时...
I'm not a violin player, but there's a point where you eventually have changed who you are.
我不是小提琴手，但到了某个时刻，你最终会改变自己。
You're now a violinist.
你现在是一名小提琴家。
Michael Kilgard: I'm a neuroscientist.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我是一名神经科学家。
I don't think it's something that's hard to do.
我不认为这是一件很难做到的事情。
Anyone can do it.
任何人都可以做到。
Just spend all day doing experiments.
就花一整天的时间做实验。
Michael Kilgard: And that's what's neat about reading books, or being a skier, or being a parent.
迈克尔·基尔加德：这就是读书、滑雪或为人父母的好处。
Everybody can get good at it, but you only have so many hours.
每个人都可以擅长，但你的时间有限。
And so, I always think about the pie chart.
因此，我总是会想到饼图。
You only get 100%.
你只能得到100%。
Coaches always say, "110%." There's no 110%.
教练总是说“110%”。没有110%。
There's only 100%.
只有100%啊
Michael Kilgard: How are you going to spend your time?
迈克尔·基尔加德：你打算如何度过你的时间？
Here I'm talking about the waking hours, because I'm not going to cut corners on the sleeping hours.
这里我谈论的是清醒时间，因为我不会在睡眠时间上偷工减料。
And so, you just look, how am I going to spend it?
所以，你只要看看，我要怎么花它？
Michael Kilgard: Some time spent working, paying the bills, getting the job done, some time in leisure and recreation, some time with spiritual activities, and trying to make that balance.
迈克尔·基尔加德：一些时间花在工作、支付账单、完成工作上，一些时间花在休闲和娱乐上，一些时间花在精神活动上，并努力保持这种平衡。
I find it looks a lot like it looked for my grandparents.
我发现它看起来很像我的祖父母。
Michael Kilgard: But the proportions of that pie chart do not look like I just want to disengage and spend all my time streaming on social media, just me personally.
迈克尔·基尔加德：但从饼图的比例来看，我并不只是想脱离并把所有时间都花在社交媒体上，只是我个人。
People who have done that look a lot like you'd think someone who's addicted would look.
这样做的人看起来很像你想象的上瘾的人。
They eventually realize, "It's just not doing it for me anymore.
他们最终意识到，“这不再适合我了。
I don't get much satisfaction."
我没有得到太多满足。”
Michael Kilgard: Gilbert at Harvard did this great experiment looking at what made people happy, had these little things pop up, you may know about this experiment, and ask, "How are you feeling?" And, like, people were happy when they were getting eggs.
迈克尔·基尔加德：哈佛大学的吉尔伯特做了一个伟大的实验，着眼于什么让人们快乐，如果出现这些小事情，你可能会知道这个实验，并问，“你感觉怎么样？”而且，就像人们在得到鸡蛋时很高兴一样。
It was just like, "I'm at the store.
就像，“我在商店。
My wife said get eggs.
我老婆说买鸡蛋。
I'm getting eggs." "How are you doing?" "I'm pretty good.
我去拿鸡蛋。” “你好吗？” “我很好。
I got eggs." That idea that you're happiest when you're accomplishing some simple goal, not some Olympic level impossible goal, but just some simple thing that needs to be done.
我有鸡蛋。”当你完成一些简单的目标时，你会感到最快乐，而不是一些奥林匹克水平的不可能的目标，而只是一些需要完成的简单的事情。
Michael Kilgard: What was surprising from that study was that when people were daydreaming, which for years we thought the pursuit of happiness, our forefathers thought if you could just sit and contemplate your naval and, you know, have the examined life, you'd be most happy.
迈克尔·基尔加德：这项研究令人惊讶的是，当人们做白日梦时，多年来我们认为这是对幸福的追求，我们的祖先认为，如果你能坐下来思考你的海军，你知道，审视生活，你就会最幸福。
Not so.
并非如此。
Michael Kilgard: Oftentimes, contemplating our own life leads us to find someone who's got a better version of it, leads us to realize we're not accomplishing every goal.
迈克尔·基尔加德：很多时候，反思自己的生活会让我们找到比自己生活更好的人，让我们意识到我们并没有实现每一个目标。
And so maybe humans evolved or created so that they would be actively engaged in doing something.
因此，也许人类的进化或创造是为了让他们能够积极地从事某事。
That appears to be the case.
情况似乎确实如此。
Michael Kilgard: And when we disengage, it appears that things happen that are not good.
迈克尔·基尔加德：当我们脱离接触时，似乎会发生不好的事情。
What are those?
那些是什么？
Typically, in psychiatry, they're called anxiety and depression.
通常，在精神病学中，它们被称为焦虑和抑郁。
They're different things, but they may be very similar sides of a coin, where this is not working for me.
它们是不同的东西，但它们可能是硬币的两面非常相似，这对我不起作用。
And I think we can work back to, how about we go do the laundry?
我想我们可以回去，我们去洗衣服怎么样？
How about we go to the grocery store?
我们去杂货店怎么样？
And find out that that is, in fact, a satisfying activity, even though it's pedestrian.
并发现这实际上是一项令人满意的活动，尽管它是平淡无奇的。
It's not something you're going to put an Instagram post on.
这不是你要在 Instagram 上发布帖子的东西。
You know, making good pancakes.
你知道，煎饼很好吃。
I'm pretty good at making pancakes.
我很擅长做煎饼。
I flip it over.
我把它翻过来。
It's just brown all along.
一直都是棕色的。
I go, "That's a good pancake." Some people are not as good as me.
我说：“这煎饼真好吃。”有些人不如我。
I take a little pride in that.
我对此感到有点自豪。
But I'm not beating them.
但我不会打败他们。
I'm not better at pancake-making.
我不擅长做煎饼。
I flip it over and go, "It's a pancake." I serve it to the kid.
我把它翻过来，说：“这是煎饼。”我把它给孩子吃。
The kid goes, "Good pancake, Dad," you're sort of done.
孩子说：“爸爸，煎饼不错。”你就差不多完成了。
Michael Kilgard: I think we devalue that by thinking, "I could just go to International House of Pancakes and they make a better pancake." I did it myself.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我认为我们通过这样的想法贬低了这一点：“我可以去国际煎饼屋，他们会做更好的煎饼。”我自己做的。
A lot of people during COVID found out, making it yourself...
很多人在新冠疫情期间发现了这一点，于是自己做了……
I'd never made a bagel in my life, and suddenly we're locked down for two whole weeks and it's like, "Let's go make bagels, kids." And I went and made a bagel.
我这辈子从来没有做过百吉饼，突然间我们被封锁了整整两周，就像，“孩子们，我们去做百吉饼吧。”我去做了一个百吉饼。
It wasn't a good bagel.
这不是一个好的百吉饼。
I can get a better bagel any place.
我可以在任何地方买到更好的百吉饼。
But I made that bagel.
但我做了那个百吉饼。
I learned a little bit about it, and I appreciate better those people who master that.
我学到了一些知识，并且我更欣赏那些掌握这些知识的人。
And now when I taste a bagel, I go, "Now I see why your bagel is better than my bagel."
现在，当我品尝百吉饼时，我会说：“现在我明白为什么你的百吉饼比我的百吉饼更好了。”
Michael Kilgard: And so, I think those experiences are all coming into my brain.
迈克尔·基尔加德：所以，我认为这些经历都进入了我的大脑。
I still remember, obviously, or I wouldn't have mentioned it, this thing six years ago, when I'm sitting in my kitchen with my kids, and a pot of water and some flour, trying to figure out what I'm going to do with myself.
显然，我仍然记得六年前的这件事，否则我不会提到这件事，当时我和孩子们坐在厨房里，拿着一壶水和一些面粉，试图弄清楚我要做什么。
I didn't want the whole world shut down, but I got that gift from it, that I have that better appreciation now of bagels.
我不想让整个世界都关闭，但我从中得到了一份礼物，那就是我现在对百吉饼有了更好的欣赏。
Michael Kilgard: And I just think that's a world view that we really could have gone down a path where studying the brain made us unimportant.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我只是认为这是一种世界观，我们真的可以走上一条研究大脑使我们变得不重要的道路。
It made computers good, and humans bad.
它让计算机变好，让人类变坏。
I'm not seeing that at all.
我根本没有看到这一点。
Michael Kilgard: I'm super proud of all my friends.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我为我所有的朋友感到非常自豪。
I wouldn't rather hang out with a chatbot than with my friends.
我宁愿和聊天机器人一起出去玩，也不愿和我的朋友们一起出去玩。
And I think that's going to continue to happen.
我认为这种情况将会继续发生。
I don't expect there's going to be a major revolution in that.
我不认为这会发生重大革命。
And that's a surprise.
这是一个惊喜。
It's a surprise that discovery keeps leading to good things, not bad things.
令人惊讶的是，发现总是带来好事，而不是坏事。
Michael Kilgard: There are a lot of dangerous things, as I mentioned, machine guns and nuclear weapons, but we mostly haven't used those things.
迈克尔·基尔加德：正如我提到的，有很多危险的东西，机枪和核武器，但我们大多没有使用过这些东西。
We've made all this good stuff.
我们已经做了所有这些好东西。
So, you can see I'm an optimist, and it partly comes from studying the brain.
所以，你可以看到我是一个乐观主义者，这部分来自于对大脑的研究。
Michael Kilgard: I get to study the brain while it's alive, and listen to neurons while they're actually firing.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我可以在大脑还活着的时候研究它，并在神经元实际放电时聆听它们的声音。
Other people looked at it while it was in dead tissue under a microscope, but they were both able to see, "This thing is alive," and that was reflective of how I feel as a live person, not as a machine, not as a pawn, not as a, you know, one vote in a democracy, but as a real person.
其他人在显微镜下观察它在死亡组织中的情况，但他们都能够看到，“这个东西是活的”，这反映了我作为一个活生生的人的感受，不是作为一台机器，不是作为一个棋子，不是作为一个民主国家的一票，而是作为一个真实的人。
Michael Kilgard: And neuroscience is supporting that.
迈克尔·基尔加德：神经科学也支持这一点。
And that's been the history of science.
这就是科学的历史。
We didn't ruin things when we found out that the sun's not revolving around us.
当我们发现太阳不再绕着我们转时，我们并没有毁掉一切。
It made it better when we found out we're revolving around the sun.
当我们发现我们绕着太阳转时，情况变得更好了。
We're not the only galaxy.
我们不是唯一的星系。
All those things were good for us.
所有这些事情对我们都有好处。
Michael Kilgard: But at first, people were really nervous about having the answer.
迈克尔·基尔加德：但一开始，人们对得到答案感到非常紧张。
I've just been surprised that finding the answer keeps being the good thing.
我只是很惊讶找到答案仍然是件好事。
You'd rather have the answer.
你更愿意得到答案。
There are no answers we don't want.
没有我们不想要的答案。
Michael Kilgard: That's really surprising to me, because it could have turned out we're all bad, and there's nothing here, and all the nihilist philosophies and all the rest would be right.
迈克尔·基尔加德：这对我来说真的很令人惊讶，因为结果可能是我们都是坏人，这里什么都没有，所有的虚无主义哲学和所有其他的哲学都是对的。
But that doesn't appear to be the case.
但事实似乎并非如此。
Michael Kilgard: And all that comes from this sort of friction, this reflection, all these issues, learning about how the brain works, all the way down at the biological level, all the way up to societies and groups of people who continue to be mostly pro-social, mostly taking care of each other, mostly not destroying the Earth, figuring things out, making adjustments.
迈克尔·基尔加德：所有这些都来自于这种摩擦，这种反思，所有这些问题，了解大脑是如何工作的，一直到生物层面，一直到社会和人群，他们仍然主要是亲社会的，主要是互相照顾，主要不是破坏地球，解决问题，做出调整。
The ozone layer had a hole in it.
臭氧层上有一个洞。
We made some changes.
我们做了一些改变。
That seems very reasonable.
这看起来很有道理。
Michael Kilgard: We may not be fast about it all the time, but we tend to make the right path, both in science, as well in our species, and I think that's because they're both using the same mechanism.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我们可能并不总是很快，但我们倾向于走正确的道路，无论是在科学方面，还是在我们的物种中，我认为这是因为它们都使用相同的机制。
We get feedback from the world.
我们从世界各地获得反馈。
Michael Kilgard: When we make the wrong choices, we see it.
迈克尔·基尔加德：当我们做出错误的选择时，我们就会看到它。
That's true as a parent, true as a scientist.
作为父母、作为科学家都是如此。
When things don't work, you're going to find out.
当事情不起作用时，你就会发现。
And I like that feedback from the world.
我喜欢来自世界的反馈。
Andrew Huberman: I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function.
Andrew Huberman：我想稍微休息一下，并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。
Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.
去年，在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我成为了 Function 成员。
Andrew Huberman: Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health.
Andrew Huberman：Function 提供 100 多项高级实验室测试，让您全面了解整个身体健康状况。
This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more.
此快照为您提供有关心脏健康、激素健康、免疫功能、营养水平等方面的见解。
Andrew Huberman: They've also recently added tests for toxins, such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics, and tests for PFAS, or forever chemicals.
Andrew Huberman：他们最近还增加了毒素测试，例如有害塑料中的 BPA 暴露，以及 PFAS 或永久化学物质的测试。
Andrew Huberman: Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas.
Andrew Huberman：Function 不仅提供对您的身心健康至关重要的 100 多种生物标记物的测试，而且还分析这些结果并提供相关领域专家的顶级医生的见解。
Andrew Huberman: For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood.
Andrew Huberman：例如，在我第一次使用 Function 进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量升高。
Andrew Huberman: Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens, and supplementing with NAC, N-acetyl cysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification, and I should say, by taking a second Function test, that approach worked.
Andrew Huberman：功能不仅帮助我发现了这一点，而且还提供了如何最好地降低汞含量的见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼消费，我一直在吃大量金枪鱼，同时也努力吃更多的绿叶蔬菜，并补充 NAC、N-乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒，我应该说，通过进行第二次功能测试，这种方法有效。
Andrew Huberman: Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important.
Andrew Huberman：全面的血液检测至关重要。
There's so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test.
有很多与您的心理和身体健康相关的事情只能通过血液检查来检测。
Andrew Huberman: The problem is, blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated.
Andrew Huberman：问题是，血液检测一直非常昂贵且复杂。
In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity, and at the level of cost.
相比之下，Function 的简单性和成本水平给我留下了深刻的印象。
It is very affordable.
这是非常实惠的。
Andrew Huberman: As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.
安德鲁·休伯曼：因此，我决定加入他们的科学顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。
If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Function，可以访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。
Andrew Huberman: Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to 'Huberman Podcast' listeners.
Andrew Huberman：Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等待名单，但他们正在为“Huberman Podcast”听众提供早期访问服务。
Andrew Huberman: Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.
Andrew Huberman：再次强调，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。
Andrew Huberman: I share and love your sense of optimism.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我分享并喜欢你的乐观精神。
I was thinking about default settings that we arrive into the world with, and it seems, at least to me, that our default setting is to learn.
我在思考我们来到这个世界时的默认设置，至少对我来说，我们的默认设置似乎是学习。
The young brain is poised to learn.
年轻的大脑已经做好了学习的准备。
And then as we learn, perhaps the only thing we need to be cautious of with respect to technology is how technologies might be kind of nudging our default settings in terms of behavior.
然后，根据我们的了解，也许我们在技术方面唯一需要警惕的是技术可能会如何推动我们的行为默认设置。
Andrew Huberman: I thought a lot about this recently, and I thought, you know, 'How much time per day am I on my phone versus working on my book edits, versus, you know, preparing for a solo podcast?' All of which, I love preparing for podcasts, and I love being here doing podcasts, and I love writing.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：我最近对此想了很多，我想，你知道，“我每天花多少时间在手机上，而不是在编辑书籍上，或者，你知道，为个人播客做准备？”所有这些，我喜欢准备播客，我喜欢在这里做播客，我喜欢写作。
Andrew Huberman: And it's hard.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这很难。
But this focus and friction thing together, plus reflection, I'm not trying to play psychologist here, but in my mind I have this very simple mathematical formula that says that, you know, focus, plus friction, plus reflection, and sleep not only give you neuroplasticity, but those things combined are also, what I'm hearing from you, is that they contribute to this thing called meaning.
但是，把注意力和摩擦力加上反思，我不想在这里扮演心理学家，但在我的脑海里，我有一个非常简单的数学公式，它说，你知道，注意力，加上摩擦力，加上反思和睡眠，不仅给你神经可塑性，而且这些东西结合在一起，我从你那里听到的，是它们有助于所谓意义的东西。
Andrew Huberman: Like, the pancake experience has meaning because there was some friction, because it wasn't as good as perhaps you could go buy from International House of Pancakes.
安德鲁·休伯曼：就像，煎饼体验很有意义，因为存在一些摩擦，因为它不如你从国际煎饼屋购买的那么好。
Which, by the way, their pancakes are not that good.
顺便说一下，他们的煎饼不太好吃。
I'm just going to put that out there.
我只是要把它放在那里。
Yeah, come after me, but like, the pancakes, they don't taste...
是的，跟我来，但是就像煎饼一样，它们味道不怎么样……
They're a deprived pancake experience in my view.
在我看来，这是一种被剥夺的煎饼体验。
Michael Kilgard: Sure.
迈克尔·基尔加德：当然。
Andrew Huberman: Step it up, guys.
Andrew Huberman：加油，伙计们。
But that friction of the...
但这种摩擦...
You know, your bagel, I agree.
你知道，你的百吉饼，我同意。
The bagel you made, even though I didn't taste it, was probably not as good as the bagel you can get in Manhattan.
你做的百吉饼，虽然我没尝过，但可能不如你在曼哈顿吃到的百吉饼。
They make pretty good bagels in Manhattan.
他们在曼哈顿制作非常好的百吉饼。
Michael Kilgard: That's what I thought.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我就是这么想的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: But the effort that you put into it, and the thought and the fact that it came from a mild deprivation, you couldn't go out and buy bagels, is, you know, that's the friction.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但是你为此付出的努力，以及来自轻微剥夺的想法和事实，你不能出去买百吉饼，你知道，这就是摩擦。
There's some focus.
有一些重点。
There's a reflection.
有反映。
It's still with you, and you extract meaning from it one way or the other.
它仍然在你身边，你可以通过某种方式从中提取意义。
Or you discard the experience and you decide there was no meaning there, and the meaning was no meaning, and you just kind of go to the next thing.
或者你放弃了这段经历，你认为那里没有意义，而意义也没有意义，你就转向下一件事。
Andrew Huberman: But I think that the human brain, as you said, it's interesting.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但我认为，正如你所说，人脑很有趣。
Earlier you were talking about yellow bile, black bile, what's the other one?
刚才你说的是黄胆汁、黑胆汁，另外一种是什么？
Phlegm, and...
痰，还有...
Michael Kilgard: Blood.
迈克尔·基尔加德：血。
Andrew Huberman: And blood.
安德鲁·休伯曼：还有血。
Those are the four components that for many years people in medicine thought were, like, the critical elements of human experience, and biology, and health, or lack of health.
多年来，医学界人士认为这四个组成部分是人类经验、生物学、健康或缺乏健康的关键要素。
Andrew Huberman: And then we shifted, as you pointed out, to serotonin, norepinephrine, acetylcholine, and dopamine.
安德鲁·休伯曼：正如你所指出的，然后我们转向了血清素、去甲肾上腺素、乙酰胆碱和多巴胺。
We'll go there in a moment.
我们一会儿就去那里。
But ultimately, those are just the substrates by which we make bagels, or we have a lasting experience of meaning with an advisor or, more importantly, a parent.
但最终，这些只是我们制作百吉饼的底材，或者我们与顾问或更重要的是与父母一起获得了持久的意义体验。
Right.
正确的。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: This is like the alchemy of life.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这就像生命的炼金术。
And neuroplasticity is really the process, right?
神经可塑性确实是这个过程，对吧？
I always have to emphasize to people that these things have names, but they're not nouns, they're verbs.
我总是要向人们强调这些东西有名字，但它们不是名词，而是动词。
Plasticity is a process that brings it together.
可塑性是将其结合在一起的过程。
That's the cooking of sorts.
这就是烹饪之类的。
Andrew Huberman: So, in any case, I'm not trying to do philosophy here, but there's so much richness in what you're offering, in terms of these real world, very basic examples, but they have real meaning because of what the context was, and how you reflect on them now still.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，无论如何，我不想在这里做哲学，但是就这些现实世界而言，你提供的内容非常丰富，非常基本的例子，但它们具有真正的意义，因为背景是什么，以及你现在仍然如何反思它们。
Andrew Huberman: So, let's talk about those four elements.
Andrew Huberman：那么，我们来谈谈这四个要素。
Not yellow bile, black bile, phlegm, and blood.
不是黄胆汁、黑胆汁、痰和血。
Gross.
总的。
Bile just sounds gross, even though I'm sure it does useful things.
胆汁听起来很恶心，尽管我确信它确实有用。
I know it does useful things.
我知道它确实有用。
Andrew Huberman: Let's talk about serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, and acetylcholine, in particular.
Andrew Huberman：让我们特别谈谈血清素、多巴胺、去甲肾上腺素和乙酰胆碱。
Andrew Huberman: These are neuromodulators.
Andrew Huberman：这些是神经调节剂。
They modulate the activity of neurons.
它们调节神经元的活动。
They make them typically more active, but sometimes less active.
它们通常会使他们更加活跃，但有时也会变得不那么活跃。
You mentioned a few of the hubs in the brain that release these different neuromodulators.
您提到了大脑中释放这些不同神经调节剂的一些中枢。
Andrew Huberman: I'm familiar with those.
Andrew Huberman：我对这些很熟悉。
But maybe you could step us through the way that you think about them, and educate us on them, because I'm learning so much from you already today, and I want to learn how you think about neuroplasticity, and what these four kind of macro nutrients of neuroplasticity are.
但也许你可以引导我们了解你对它们的看法，并教育我们，因为今天我已经从你那里学到了很多东西，我想了解你如何看待神经可塑性，以及神经可塑性的这四种宏观营养素是什么。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
I mean, they remind me of the sort of four fundamental forces of nature, and that we're looking for the grand unified theory, right?
我的意思是，它们让我想起了自然的四种基本力量，而且我们正在寻找大统一理论，对吧？
So, in physics, you've got electromagnetism, gravity is strong, nuclear force, and weak nuclear force.
所以，在物理学中，有电磁力、强引力、核力和弱核力。
We're trying to put them all together.
我们正在努力将它们整合在一起。
We know they all exist, but what do they all do individually?
我们知道它们都存在，但是它们各自都做什么呢？
How do they all work together?
他们如何一起工作？
They make tables.
他们做桌子。
I mean, that's what all this stuff does.
我的意思是，这就是所有这些东西的作用。
Michael Kilgard: For me, those four neurotransmitters began as a simple experiment searching for an explanation.
迈克尔·基尔加德：对我来说，这四种神经递质最初是一个寻找解释的简单实验。
Michael Kilgard: My story of this is easy in the beginning.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我的故事一开始很简单。
I heard about one experiment done by Gregg Recanzone in the early '90s, and a monkey is reaching out and having a vibration on the tip of his finger, and if he pays attention to it enough, he can double the number of neurons in his brain, or triple, or sometimes five times more neurons that respond to a touch of the finger.
我听说格雷格·雷坎佐恩 (Gregg Recanzone) 在 90 年代初做过一个实验，一只猴子伸出手，指尖产生振动，如果他足够注意，他的大脑中对手指触摸做出反应的神经元数量可以增加一倍，或者三倍，有时甚至五倍。
That's amazing.
太棒了。
Michael Kilgard: That monkey was also listening to a sound that happened just as often, but his auditory cortex did not change because he wasn't listening to the tone.
迈克尔·基尔加德：那只猴子也在听同样经常发生的声音，但他的听觉皮层没有改变，因为他没有听声音。
Michael Kilgard: What was useful to him was the touch.
迈克尔·基尔加德：对他来说有用的是触摸。
He'd pull his hand away and get a pellet reward based on the touch.
他会把手抽开，并根据触摸获得颗粒奖励。
And the other, the sound was a distraction, so his brain learned touch, not sound.
另一方面，声音会分散他的注意力，所以他的大脑学会了触摸，而不是声音。
Michael Kilgard: One of the other monkeys was randomized to be in the other group.
迈克尔·基尔加德：其中一只猴子被随机分到另一组。
That monkey was also getting his finger vibrated, but that vibration was a distraction, and now the sounds mattered.
那只猴子的手指也在振动，但这种振动会分散注意力，现在声音很重要。
When the sound made a tiny change, he had to pull his hand away, not because of the vibration, because of the sound.
当声音产生微小的变化时，他不得不把手抽开，不是因为震动，而是因为声音。
And that monkey had no change in the way his brain processed the sense of touch on his finger, but quadrupled the number of neurons in his brain that responded to that particular pitch, because that particular pitch had information.
那只猴子的大脑处理手指触觉的方式没有变化，但他大脑中对特定音调做出反应的神经元数量增加了四倍，因为特定音调包含信息。
Michael Kilgard: At the time I was a biochemistry major, and I thought, 'Wait, I know the cellular basis of life.' There's all these cells.
迈克尔·基尔加德：当时我主修生物化学，我想，“等等，我知道生命的细胞基础。”都是这些细胞。
This is kind of the big idea from the last century, life is made of cells.
这是上个世纪的一个伟大想法，生命是由细胞组成的。
Why?
为什么？
Who knows.
谁知道呢。
But that's a core idea, and it's true.
但这是一个核心想法，也是事实。
DNA is one of the other core ideas, how proteins work.
DNA 是蛋白质如何运作的其他核心思想之一。
Michael Kilgard: But how does a cell, one 100 billionth of me, how does it know which I'm paying attention to?
迈克尔·基尔加德：但是一个细胞，即我的千亿分之一，它如何知道我在关注哪个？
It can't know everything.
它不可能知道一切。
Michael Kilgard: With ChatGPT, it does know everything.
Michael Kilgard：通过 ChatGPT，它确实知道一切。
We send a signal to every cell, we have a broadcast system, every cell knows everything because that's how it's built.
我们向每个细胞发送信号，我们有一个广播系统，每个细胞都知道一切，因为它就是这样构建的。
But with us, a cell, I didn't know of a way, there was no biology then or now, where one cell could know what is happening about everything.
但对于我们，一个细胞，我不知道有什么办法，无论是当时还是现在，都没有生物学可以让一个细胞知道一切正在发生的事情。
Michael Kilgard: The closest thing that was available was release of acetylcholine.
迈克尔·基尔加德：最接近的方法是释放乙酰胆碱。
Michael Kilgard: We knew that if you took a drug, for 100 years we've known, that blocks all the acetylcholine, you won't remember anything.
Michael Kilgard：我们知道，如果你服用一种我们 100 年来都知道的药物，它可以阻断所有的乙酰胆碱，你就不会记得任何事情。
Nothing you're hearing on this podcast will be remembered if you took a drug that blocked acetylcholine.
如果您服用了阻断乙酰胆碱的药物，您在这个播客中听到的任何内容都不会被记住。
You just won't remember anything.
你只是不会记得任何事情。
It's an amnestic.
这是一种记忆删除剂。
Michael Kilgard: People used to give it to patients when they'd have surgery so they wouldn't remember all the horrible pain.
迈克尔·基尔加德（Michael Kilgard）：人们过去常常在病人接受手术时把它给他们，这样他们就不会记得所有可怕的疼痛。
Andrew Huberman: What is the drug?
安德鲁·休伯曼：这是什么药？
Michael Kilgard: The drug's anticholinergics like scopolamine, atropine.
迈克尔·基尔加德：这种药物的抗胆碱能药物如东莨菪碱、阿托品。
These are drugs that block acetylcholine just by preventing the neurotransmitter from binding to the receptor.
这些药物只是通过阻止神经递质与受体结合来阻断乙酰胆碱。
These are now date rape drugs, these kinds of things.
这些现在是约会强奸药物，诸如此类的东西。
They're really bad, because they block our memories, and we need our memories.
它们真的很糟糕，因为它们封锁了我们的记忆，而我们需要我们的记忆。
And we knew acetylcholine was responsible, but that doesn't really explain how it works.
我们知道乙酰胆碱是罪魁祸首，但这并不能真正解释它是如何起作用的。
The fact that you need it doesn't say what it's doing.
您需要它的事实并没有说明它在做什么。
Michael Kilgard: So, the hypothesis was maybe the animal's paying attention doesn't matter.
迈克尔·基尔加德：所以，我们的假设是动物的注意力可能并不重要。
Maybe it's simpler than that.
也许比那更简单。
And maybe what's really happening is each time the animal tries, pays attention, focuses with that friction, with that attention, that at that moment, there's a burst acetylcholine being released.
也许真正发生的事情是，每次动物尝试、注意、集中注意力时，那种摩擦、那种注意力，在那一刻，乙酰胆碱就会突然释放出来。
Michael Kilgard: So, I mentioned Mahlon DeLong recorded from those neurons, and sure enough, when an animal's doing this task, those neurons fire.
迈克尔·基尔加德：所以，我提到了从这些神经元记录下来的马隆·德隆，果然，当动物执行这项任务时，这些神经元会放电。
So, the question was, if I flipped it around and said let me put an electrode in those neurons, now there is no task.
所以，问题是，如果我翻转它并说让我在这些神经元中放置一个电极，那么现在就没有任务了。
Michael Kilgard: I'm going to activate just those neurons while a tone happens.
Michael Kilgard：当出现音调时，我将只激活那些神经元。
Can I also quadruple the number of neurons that respond to that tone?
我是否可以将响应该音调的神经元数量增加四倍？
And it doesn't mean anything to the animal at all.
这对动物来说根本没有任何意义。
Like, I know it doesn't mean anything, because there is no reward.
就像，我知道这没有任何意义，因为没有奖励。
The animal's not hungry.
动物不饿。
Nothing is happening.
什么也没发生。
Michael Kilgard: So, that was the work I did with Mike Merzenich.
迈克尔·基尔加德：这就是我和迈克·梅泽尼奇一起做的工作。
And the answer is it worked, which was just incredible.
答案是它有效，这真是令人难以置信。
Michael Kilgard: The brain, the proportion of neurons that respond to your finger, or to a particular smell, or to a particular orientation of light, all those can be changed based on the relative timing of the release of neurotransmitters, including acetylcholine, and the activity in your brain, which is a very rich data source, lots of information about sights and sounds and smells.
迈克尔·基尔加德：大脑，对手指、特定气味或特定光方向做出反应的神经元比例，所有这些都可以根据神经递质（包括乙酰胆碱）释放的相对时间以及大脑中的活动而改变，而大脑是一个非常丰富的数据源，有很多关于视觉、声音和气味的信息。
It has to happen a lot of times.
它必须发生很多次。
How many?
多少？
Hundreds of times per day for many, many days.
每天数百次，持续很多很多天。
That's what happened to me when I was squashing those flies.
这就是我在压死那些苍蝇时发生的事情。
Michael Kilgard: Every day I'd go in and look at the same pattern, and I'd close my eyes, and I'd see it.
迈克尔·基尔加德：每天我都会进去看同样的图案，然后我闭上眼睛，我就会看到它。
It didn't happen once.
一次也没有发生过。
It required that spaced repetition we know from psychology and neuroscience is required to change the brain.
它要求我们从心理学和神经科学中知道，改变大脑需要间隔重复。
Michael Kilgard: And so, okay, I can change the brain with this one thing.
迈克尔·基尔加德：所以，好吧，我可以用这一件事改变大脑。
Michael Kilgard: Others came along and said, "What if instead of doing acetylcholine, I stimulated instead of nucleus basalis releasing acetylcholine, I stimulated locus coeruleus releasing norepinephrine?" Same thing happens.
迈克尔·基尔加德：其他人走过来说，“如果我不刺激基底核释放乙酰胆碱，而是刺激蓝斑释放去甲肾上腺素，那会怎样？”同样的事情也会发生。
Wait a minute.
等一下。
It's a totally different brain area.
这是一个完全不同的大脑区域。
Doesn't matter.
没关系。
I release these neurotransmitters.
我释放这些神经递质。
I also can quadruple it.
我也可以把它翻四倍。
All right?
好的？
What if I did dopamine?
如果我服用多巴胺怎么办？
You also get an increase.
你也会得到提升。
So, the idea is I'm just labeling these things, all these events.
所以，我的想法是我只是给这些东西、所有这些事件贴上标签。
I'm awash in information.
我被信息淹没了。
Michael Kilgard: Everything I look, every leaf that wiggles, every breath of air, wind against my face, every bit of my shirt, most that I ignore because it doesn't matter.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我看到的一切，每一片摆动的叶子，每一次呼吸的空气，吹过我脸的风，我衬衫的每一点，大部分我都忽略了，因为它们并不重要。
But I'm learning what matters and what doesn't matter.
但我正在学习什么是重要的，什么是不重要的。
Michael Kilgard: And a baby is doing it by fumbling around with their fingers and hitting themselves and trying to get the bottle.
迈克尔·基尔加德：婴儿通过用手指摸索、打自己并试图拿到瓶子来做到这一点。
We're doing it by trying to figure out what gets us social cues, what gets us reward, or prestige, or mating opportunities, or safety, or security.
我们这样做的方法是试图找出什么给我们带来社交线索，什么给我们带来奖励、声望、交配机会、安全或保障。
Michael Kilgard: And the way the neurons know, the tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of me, is this little release.
迈克尔·基尔加德：神经元知道的方式，我的微小、微小、微小的部分，就是这个小小的释放。
And this release is very transient.
而且这个版本的发布非常短暂。
It's not about how much there is.
这不是有多少的问题。
It's about the timing of it.
这是关于它的时机。
And the psychologists knew this.
心理学家知道这一点。
Michael Kilgard: You ring a bell, you feed the dog, the dog starts to salivate.
迈克尔·基尔加德：你按响铃，喂狗，狗就开始流口水。
So, these classic experiments by Ivan Pavlov simply show that the brain can change.
所以，伊万·巴甫洛夫的这些经典实验只是表明大脑可以改变。
Michael Kilgard: Why does the salivation change because of a ringing bell?
迈克尔·基尔加德：为什么唾液会因为铃声而改变？
Because that's the thing that leads to this event being useful.
因为这就是导致此事件有用的原因。
It's useful to the dog to prepare for this activity, and so you condition this particular synapse to be strengthened, where normally bells just ring.
对狗来说，为这项活动做准备是很有用的，因此你可以调节这个特定的突触，使其得到加强，而通常情况下，铃铛只会响个不停。
Dogs don't care about bells.
狗不关心铃声。
Bells don't matter.
钟声并不重要。
It's just a church...
这只是一座教堂...
Just the end of the hour.
刚刚结束一个小时。
Ignore it.
忽略它。
But if over time you repeatedly teach, then you make this change.
但如果随着时间的推移，你不断地教导，那么你就会做出这种改变。
Michael Kilgard: When we teach undergraduates, 'What does acetylcholine do,' we will sometimes say it's the memory neurotransmitter.
迈克尔·基尔加德：当我们教本科生“乙酰胆碱有什么作用”时，我们有时会说它是记忆神经递质。
And when we say, 'What does norepinephrine do,' we'll sometimes say it's the attention one.
当我们说“去甲肾上腺素有什么作用”时，我们有时会说它是注意力的作用。
And when we say, 'What does dopamine do," we'll sometimes say it's the reward one.
当我们说“多巴胺有什么作用”时，我们有时会说它是奖励。
And when we say, 'What does serotonin do,' we'll sometimes say it's the mood one.
当我们说“血清素有什么作用”时，我们有时会说它是调节情绪的。
And there's reasons for that.
这是有原因的。
And they have a lot to learn, and making it simple is a good idea.
他们有很多东西要学，让事情变得简单是个好主意。
Michael Kilgard: But the chance that any given word in English has a biological basis, one molecule, one cell type, one rhythm, is zero.
迈克尔·基尔加德：但是英语中任何给定的单词具有生物学基础（一种分子、一种细胞类型、一种节奏）的可能性为零。
There's an infinite number of words we could've made.
我们可以造出无数个单词。
There's a lot of complex biology.
有很多复杂的生物学。
There isn't likely, in my opinion, this is a rare opinion, there isn't likely to be an attention thing.
在我看来，这是一个罕见的观点，不太可能引起关注。
It's just a word we made up to describe a series of phenomenon.
它只是我们为了描述一系列现象而编造的一个词。
Michael Kilgard: There doesn't have to be a gene for that.
迈克尔·基尔加德：不一定有基因。
We think there does.
我们认为确实有。
There's a gene for everything.
一切都有基因。
There's lots of genes for everything.
一切事物都有很多基因。
Michael Kilgard: So, the way it works, to bring this all together, these forces all coming together, is called the synaptic eligibility trace.
迈克尔·基尔加德：因此，它的工作方式是将所有这些力量聚集在一起，称为突触资格痕迹。
This is Alfredo Kirkwood's work, and many others.
这是阿尔弗雷多·柯克伍德和许多其他人的作品。
He's at Johns Hopkins.
他在约翰·霍普金斯大学。
But many people have contributed to this.
但很多人为此做出了贡献。
Michael Kilgard: The synapse has learned, 'I need to strengthen long-term potentiation, because there's a presynaptic input releasing typically glutamate onto the postsynaptic cell, the cell that's receiving it, and because the order was right, release glutamate, and then respond, I should strengthen.
迈克尔·基尔加德：突触已经了解到，“我需要加强长期增强，因为突触前输入通常将谷氨酸释放到突触后细胞上，即接收它的细胞，并且因为顺序是正确的，释放谷氨酸，然后做出反应，我应该加强。
But 99.99999 times out of 100, I don't do it.
但100次中有99.99999次我不会这么做。
I just let it go.
我就放手了。
I was going to strengthen it, but then that wasn't important.
我本来想加强它，但这并不重要。
I just let it go.'
我只是放手了。
Michael Kilgard: A handful of seconds each hour matter, and we're trying to pick which ones matter.
迈克尔·基尔加德：每小时有几秒钟很重要，我们正在努力选择哪些是重要的。
Maybe it's 100, but it's not every second matters.
也许是 100，但并不是每一秒都很重要。
Some small fraction.
一些小部分。
Michael Kilgard: And what we discovered is by triggering this release, we're using the same way biology always works, it's how you learn to play a violin, I made a squeaky note.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我们发现，通过触发这个版本，我们使用了生物学总是起作用的相同方式，这就是你学习拉小提琴的方式，我做了一个吱吱作响的音符。
I go, "Something there was wrong.
我说：“出了点问题。
I need to make an adjustment." And what's weird is it's the same cocktail when it's a good thing or a bad thing.
我需要做出调整。”奇怪的是，无论是好事还是坏事，都是同样的鸡尾酒。
Acetylcholine, norepinephrine, serotonin, dopamine, of course, changes negatively when it's bad, and positively when it's good.
当然，乙酰胆碱、去甲肾上腺素、血清素、多巴胺在不好的时候会发生负面变化，在好的时候会发生积极的变化。
But all of these things dump onto the cell.
但所有这些东西都会倾倒在细胞上。
Michael Kilgard: And that postsynaptic cell spine is trying to figure out, 'Should I strengthen or weaken?' And they all work together in a very bizarre way to create that spike timing-dependent plasticity, and so it's a four-factor learning rule.
迈克尔·基尔加德：突触后细胞脊柱正在试图弄清楚，“我应该加强还是削弱？”它们以一种非常奇怪的方式一起工作，创造出依赖于峰值时间的可塑性，所以这是一个四因素学习规则。
Michael Kilgard: Relative timing, pre-post, thousandth of a millisecond is two of them.
Michael Kilgard：相对时间、前后、千分之一毫秒是其中两个。
Then arrival on two G protein-coupled receptors.
然后到达两个 G 蛋白偶联受体。
That's just the name they were given.
这只是他们的名字。
It's not a good name, I don't think.
我不认为这不是一个好名字。
There's not an H protein-coupled receptor that I know of.
据我所知，没有 H 蛋白偶联受体。
Michael Kilgard: But these G protein-coupled receptors are running this computation, super sophisticated computation, way better than what AI's got.
Michael Kilgard：但是这些 G 蛋白偶联受体正在运行这种计算，超复杂的计算，比人工智能的计算要好得多。
Michael Kilgard: And that computation means I can play pool, or I can learn to swim, or I can learn to walk, or I could speak French if I wanted to.
迈克尔·基尔加德：这种计算意味着我可以打台球，或者我可以学习游泳，或者我可以学习走路，或者如果我愿意的话，我可以说法语。
And the fact that these neurotransmitters are working together in consort is a surprise.
这些神经递质协同工作的事实令人惊讶。
Michael Kilgard: It seemed like they would likely do different things.
迈克尔·基尔加德：看起来他们可能会做不同的事情。
Michael Kilgard: And my understanding of why we keep thinking that is because when I look inside my car, everything in the car has a different purpose.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我对为什么我们一直这样想的理解是因为当我看我的车里面时，车里的所有东西都有不同的用途。
The brakes have nothing to do with the transmission.
刹车与变速箱无关。
The transmission has nothing to do with power steering.
变速箱与动力转向无关。
The power steering has nothing to do with the muffler.
动力转向与消声器无关。
But that's because a human designed it, and the way we think about things is to make one thing that does one job, one thing that does another job, one thing that does another job.
但这是因为它是人类设计的，而我们思考事物的方式是制造一件东西来做一项工作，一件事情做另一件工作，一件事情做另一件工作。
Michael Kilgard: Biology, evolution is a tinkerer, and it just makes up live and die.
迈克尔·基尔加德：生物学、进化论是一个修补匠，它只是构成了生与死。
Sometimes the wolf lives, sometimes the wolf doesn't live.
有时狼活着，有时狼不活。
And we end up with this very messy thing where all these pieces work together really well.
我们最终得到了这个非常混乱的东西，所有这些部分都很好地协同工作。
Michael Kilgard: But when we try to give them labels, what is the thing that's causing Alzheimer's?
迈克尔·基尔加德：但是当我们试图给它们贴上标签时，是什么导致了阿尔茨海默氏症呢？
What's the thing that's causing schizophrenia?
是什么导致了精神分裂症？
What's the thing that's causing stroke?
到底是什么东西导致中风呢？
Sometimes it's easy.
有时这很容易。
For stroke, it's a blood clot causes damage to the brain.
对于中风来说，血栓会导致大脑受损。
Michael Kilgard: But for the vast majority of things, it's a whole bunch of nature-nurture mumbo jumbo, where a bunch of experiences, stress, anxiety, plus a bunch of genes, interacted.
迈克尔·基尔加德：但对于绝大多数事情来说，这是一大堆先天后天的胡言乱语，一堆经历、压力、焦虑，加上一堆基因相互作用。
But the part we have control over are these synapses.
但我们可以控制的部分是这些突触。
Michael Kilgard: The brain, as you know, is mostly not going to get very many new neurons.
迈克尔·基尔加德：正如你所知，大脑基本上不会获得太多新的神经元。
You get some new neurons, but not very many.
你会得到一些新的神经元，但数量不是很多。
Most of your neurons you got now, you're going to die with.
你现在拥有的大部分神经元都将随之死去。
But all those spines are turning over all the time, just like all the cells in your face are turning over every few weeks.
但所有这些刺一直在翻转，就像你脸上的所有细胞每隔几周就会翻转一样。
Michael Kilgard: Those spines are turning over, and changing, and reprocessing your memories, and by understanding now how this works, we think we can help people who are stuck.
迈克尔·基尔加德：这些脊柱正在翻转、改变和重新处理你的记忆，通过现在了解它是如何运作的，我们认为我们可以帮助那些陷入困境的人。
Michael Kilgard: So, there's a large number of people in our society, maybe because of social media, but maybe that happened before social media, who are really broken, have really bad traumatic events, fear of death, and they just can't get over it.
迈克尔·基尔加德：所以，我们社会中有很多人，也许是因为社交媒体，但也许这发生在社交媒体之前，他们真的很崩溃，有非常严重的创伤事件，对死亡的恐惧，他们就是无法克服它。
They're stuck in a way that's not helpful.
他们陷入了一种无益的方式。
It's called post-traumatic stress disorder.
这被称为创伤后应激障碍。
Michael Kilgard: And we're now switching this from the exciting knowledge, learning in the lab how fruit flies, and worms, and sea slugs work, and finding out there's a lot of similarity to how the mouse works, and a lot of similarity to how the monkey works, and a lot of similarity to how we work, mostly the same, the genes.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我们现在正在从令人兴奋的知识转向这一点，在实验室中学习果蝇、蠕虫和海蛞蝓如何工作，并发现它们与老鼠的工作方式有很多相似之处，与猴子的工作方式有很多相似之处，与我们的工作方式有很多相似之处，大部分是相同的，基因。
Michael Kilgard: Certainly the ones we've been talking about so far, all the identical genes in all these species.
迈克尔·基尔加德：当然是我们到目前为止一直在谈论的那些，所有这些物种中的所有相同基因。
Can we then make use of it?
那么我们可以利用它吗？
Michael Kilgard: And it's kind of scary, because you think, 'I don't want someone coming around and changing my brain.' But if I asked you, and I said I was stuck, just like if I said my bone is broken, of course I want a doctor to put those two bones together, put that cast on, and help the healing process.
迈克尔·基尔加德：这有点可怕，因为你会想，“我不希望有人过来改变我的大脑。”但如果我问你，我说我被卡住了，就像我说我的骨头断了一样，我当然希望医生将这两块骨头放在一起，打上石膏，帮助愈合过程。
Michael Kilgard: Most ways we get injured, we don't need a doctor.
迈克尔·基尔加德：在大多数情况下，我们受伤时，我们不需要医生。
Scratch a wound, you know, get a cold, doctor's not going to help you.
抓伤伤口，你知道，感冒，医生不会帮助你。
But for many of them, you need someone to set that bone, put it right.
但对于他们中的许多人来说，你需要有人来固定这根骨头，把它摆正。
Michael Kilgard: And we're just now moving to this stage, where first psychologists, and lately now neuroscientists, are learning how to reset those.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我们现在正进入这个阶段，首先是心理学家，最近是神经科学家，正在学习如何重置这些。
Many people have a great fear of heights, which is a smart thing to have.
许多人都有恐高症，这是一件明智的事情。
You don't want to fall off a cliff.
你不想从悬崖上掉下来。
It's super bad.
真是太糟糕了。
You could die.
你可能会死。
Michael Kilgard: But for some people, they can't work at a building they need to work at because their fear is so great.
迈克尔·基尔加德：但对于某些人来说，他们无法在他们需要工作的大楼里工作，因为他们的恐惧是如此之大。
My psychologist friends who have been mastering this arcane art of cognitive behavioral therapy now claim 100% cure rate for severe fear of heights.
我的心理学家朋友们一直掌握着这种神秘的认知行为疗法，现在他们声称严重恐高症的治愈率是 100%。
Michael Kilgard: People who are really debilitated, not just afraid of a height.
迈克尔·基尔加德：那些真正虚弱的人，不仅仅是恐高的人。
Everyone's afraid of a height.
每个人都恐高。
You should be.
你应该是的。
It's a smart thing.
这是一件聪明的事情。
That's adaptive.
那是自适应的。
Michael Kilgard: But for maladaptive, which is produced by some bad experiences, typically, they think, it's not my field, after decades of research doing it slightly differently, they can make it worse, which you don't want to do, but they've now found a path to rewire the brain and restore people.
迈克尔·基尔加德：但是对于由一些不良经历产生的适应不良，他们通常认为，这不是我的领域，经过几十年的研究，略有不同，他们可能会让情况变得更糟，这是你不想做的，但他们现在找到了一条重新连接大脑和恢复人们的途径。
Michael Kilgard: People can now go on an airplane safely, if you go get the therapy.
迈克尔·基尔加德：如果你接受治疗，人们现在可以安全地乘坐飞机。
It costs some money.
这要花一些钱。
You've got to work with a therapist.
你必须与治疗师合作。
But you can change your brain back.
但你可以改变你的大脑。
And if you don't do it right, you'll have that fear for the rest of your life.
如果你做得不对，你的余生都会带着这种恐惧。
Michael Kilgard: That'll be part of your personality.
迈克尔·基尔加德：这将成为你个性的一部分。
Now we learn you can make that change.
现在我们了解到您可以做出改变。
Michael Kilgard: For people with post-traumatic stress disorder, a similar therapy, cognitive processing therapy, or prolonged exposure therapy, will cure about 40% of people.
Michael Kilgard：对于患有创伤后应激障碍的人来说，类似的疗法、认知处理疗法或长期暴露疗法可以治愈大约 40% 的人。
That's fantastic.
太棒了。
Sexual assault, a war, go get therapy.
性侵犯，战争，去接受治疗。
Michael Kilgard: You got a good chance of being cured and never having this problem again.
迈克尔·基尔加德：你很有可能被治愈，并且再也不会出现这个问题。
That's fantastic.
太棒了。
That didn't use to be the case.
过去并非如此。
It used to be 20%.
以前是20%。
They made some changes and bumped it up to 40%.
他们做了一些改变，并将其提高到了 40%。
Michael Kilgard: For military, it's about 20% chance.
Michael Kilgard：对于军事来说，大约有 20% 的机会。
It's a little bit worse.
还差一点点。
It works less well in military populations, for a reason we don't really understand yet.
它在军事人群中效果较差，原因我们还不太清楚。
But the idea that a cure is possible, that's amazing.
但治愈是可能的想法真是太神奇了。
If we could have a cure, that's what people want.
如果我们能找到治愈方法，那就是人们想要的。
They want cures.
他们想要治愈方法。
They don't want to get a little better.
他们不想变得更好一点。
They want a cure.
他们想要治愈方法。
Michael Kilgard: And so, for some of the mental health conditions, not the ones we chose necessarily, but some of the ones we stumbled upon, we found out that that rewiring of the brain is so possible that you can take symptoms and push them all the way to zero.
迈克尔·基尔加德：因此，对于一些心理健康状况，不是我们必然选择的那些，而是我们偶然发现的一些，我们发现大脑的重新布线是可能的，以至于你可以采取症状并将它们一直推到零。
Michael Kilgard: But what happens if you're in that group where you're in the 60%?
Michael Kilgard：但是如果你属于 60% 的群体，会发生什么呢？
Michael Kilgard: You go to the therapy.
迈克尔·基尔加德：你去接受治疗。
You relive, you work with the therapist, you go through all the stuff, you do all the work, and you still have intrusive nightmares.
你重温生活，与治疗师一起工作，经历所有的事情，做所有的工作，但你仍然会做侵入性的噩梦。
You still have great fear of this.
你对此仍然有很大的恐惧。
You still have a pounding heart, hypervigilance, avoidant behavior, all of the hallmark signs of post-traumatic stress disorder.
你仍然心跳加速、高度警惕、回避行为，这些都是创伤后应激障碍的标志性症状。
What do you do there?
你在那里做什么？
And you can't blame the psychologist.
你不能责怪心理学家。
You can't blame the patient.
你不能责怪病人。
They've done what they can do.
他们已经做了他们能做的事情。
Michael Kilgard: We now come to neuroscience and say, 'Well, what are the new avenues?
迈克尔·基尔加德：我们现在谈到神经科学并说，‘那么，新的途径是什么？
What do you guys understand?
大家明白什么？
How could it get stuck?
怎么会卡住呢？
How could it be broken?'
它怎么能被打破呢？
Michael Kilgard: And we used to think it was demons.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我们曾经认为那是恶魔。
Then we thought it was humors that are wrong, high or low.
然后我们认为幽默感是错误的，无论高低。
Now we think it's wires.
现在我们认为它是电线。
And the answer is those wires are hard to change.
答案是这些电线很难改变。
Andrew Huberman: Neuronal wires.
安德鲁·休伯曼：神经元线。
Michael Kilgard: The neuronal wires, these synaptic connections.
迈克尔·基尔加德：神经元线，这些突触连接。
It's hard to find the right one.
很难找到合适的。
How is that?
怎么样？
There's 150 trillion of them.
其中有 150 万亿。
Which ones are that sexual assault?
哪些是性侵犯？
Which ones are that IED attack?
哪些是简易爆炸装置攻击？
I don't know.
我不知道。
You don't know.
你不知道。
But can we go through and develop a process to help work through it?
但是我们可以经历并开发一个流程来帮助解决这个问题吗？
Michael Kilgard: And that's what we've been doing, developing the tools where we use what we've learned in the lab, not with a deep brain stimulating electrode as I did before, but now switching and saying, 'Is there any other way we could trigger a brief burst, not of one neurotransmitter, but of a bunch of neurotransmitters?'
迈克尔·基尔加德：这就是我们一直在做的事情，开发工具，使用我们在实验室学到的东西，而不是像我以前那样使用深部大脑刺激电极，但现在转而说，“有没有其他方法可以触发短暂的爆发，不是一个神经递质，而是一堆神经递质？”
Michael Kilgard: And one way we came upon is this way of using an electrode placed on the vagus nerve to trick the brain into thinking you're having a heart attack.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我们想到的一种方法是使用放置在迷走神经上的电极来欺骗大脑认为您患有心脏病。
We only activate a few cells.
我们只激活少数细胞。
It's a very tiny current.
这是一个非常微小的电流。
Michael Kilgard: But normally your brain receives a signal saying, 'My heart beat, my heart beat, my heart beat, my heart beat.
迈克尔·基尔加德：但通常情况下，你的大脑会收到一个信号：“我的心跳，我的心跳，我的心跳，我的心跳。”
My lungs expanded, my lungs expanded, my lungs expanded.' And we say, "Oh, they didn't do that."
我的肺扩大了，我的肺扩大了，我的肺扩大了。我们说：“哦，他们没有那样做。”
Michael Kilgard: Turns out that sends a powerful subconscious, you're not aware of it when it happens, but a very transient, brief arousal signal.
迈克尔·基尔加德：事实证明，这会发出一种强大的潜意识，当它发生时你并没有意识到它，而是一种非常短暂的、短暂的唤醒信号。
If you've got sleep apnea, it'll wake you up.
如果您患有睡眠呼吸暂停，它会叫醒您。
If you're not breathing, someone says, "Hey, wait, you're not breathing.
如果你没有呼吸，有人会说：“嘿，等等，你没有呼吸。
We should wake you up." You can wait for the hypoxia to set in, or you can do it quicker.
我们应该叫醒你。”你可以等待缺氧发生，或者你可以做得更快。
Michael Kilgard: This is a much faster signal, and when we trigger a brief burst, just half a second long, that makes three out of four of those neurotransmitters active.
迈克尔·基尔加德：这是一个更快的信号，当我们触发一个短暂的爆发时，只有半秒长，这使得四分之三的神经递质变得活跃。
Andrew Huberman: Which ones?
安德鲁·休伯曼：哪些？
Michael Kilgard: Norepinephrine, acetylcholine, and serotonin are all released.
迈克尔·基尔加德：去甲肾上腺素、乙酰胆碱和血清素都会被释放。
Interestingly, dopamine is not even activated.
有趣的是，多巴胺甚至没有被激活。
Rats don't like it, or avoid it.
老鼠不喜欢它，或者避免它。
Humans don't like it, or avoid it.
人类不喜欢它，或者避免它。
It just doesn't matter, because it's all subconscious.
这并不重要，因为这都是潜意识的。
Michael Kilgard: Knowing what your guts are doing, your heart and lungs, who cares?
迈克尔·基尔加德：知道你的内脏、你的心和肺在做什么，谁在乎呢？
So, that one is not connected to a rewarding pathway.
因此，该途径与奖励途径无关。
We're not aware of it.
我们不知道这一点。
But the combination of releasing those three neurotransmitters activates the appropriate chemistry.
但是释放这三种神经递质的结合会激活适当的化学反应。
Michael Kilgard: It's the signal that the neuron is looking for.
Michael Kilgard：这是神经元正在寻找的信号。
And no, it's not any one signal.
不，这不是任何一个信号。
It's a cocktail, as most things in the immune system are, or bone formation, or even regulating your hunger.
它是一种鸡尾酒，就像免疫系统中的大多数东西一样，或者是骨骼形成，甚至是调节饥饿感。
Michael Kilgard: There's not one factor for anything.
Michael Kilgard：任何事情都不是单一因素造成的。
There's 10 factors for everything.
一切都有 10 个因素。
Now that we're learning that and embracing it, we can send the signal in.
现在我们正在学习并接受它，我们可以发送信号了。
Michael Kilgard: And at first, it was just a dumb experiment repeating the one we had done with deep brain stimulation, showing we could quadruple the number of neurons that produced a response to a given tone.
迈克尔·基尔加德：一开始，这只是一个愚蠢的实验，重复了我们通过深层大脑刺激所做的实验，表明我们可以将对给定音调产生反应的神经元数量增加四倍。
That's a neat laboratory curiosity, but what's it useful for?
这是一个巧妙的实验室好奇心，但它有什么用呢？
Michael Kilgard: Well, let's take our time.
迈克尔·基尔加德：好吧，让我们慢慢来。
Can we make more neurons for a low tone or a high tone?
我们可以制造更多的神经元来处理低音或高音吗？
Yes, we can.
是的，我们可以。
Can we make neurons get faster or slower?
我们能让神经元变得更快或更慢吗？
Yes, we can.
是的，我们可以。
We even played speech sounds to rats.
我们甚至给老鼠播放语音。
Rats don't care about English.
老鼠不关心英语。
Doesn't matter to them.
对他们来说并不重要。
It's not relevant to them.
这与他们无关。
Michael Kilgard: But if you repeatedly pair the word 'dad' or the word 'sad,' the neurons will shift to favor responding to a human saying dad, or a human saying sad.
迈克尔·基尔加德：但是如果你反复将“爸爸”或“悲伤”这个词配对，神经元就会转向对人类说“爸爸”或人类说“悲伤”做出反应。
Just makes sense.
有道理。
That's the statistical probability.
这就是统计概率。
It matters to them.
这对他们很重要。
Michael Kilgard: My dog understands some English.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我的狗懂一些英语。
Not all of it, but the ones that are walk, and treat, and dinner, and bed, all those, or sit, those are all things that she knows.
不是全部，但是走路、请客、吃饭、睡觉，所有这些，或者坐着，这些都是她知道的事情。
Michael Kilgard: We saw the neurons making those same changes.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我们看到神经元做出了同样的变化。
And this began to get us more and more optimistic that you could use it to treat some condition.
这开始让我们越来越乐观地认为你可以用它来治疗某些疾病。
Michael Kilgard: We've now shown, in humans, that you can use physical therapy, occupational therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy, and sensory therapy, all of which activate neurons, but they don't make enough change to get people to lose their diagnosis.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我们现在已经在人类身上证明，你可以使用物理疗法、职业疗法、认知行为疗法和感觉疗法，所有这些疗法都会激活神经元，但它们并没有做出足够的改变来让人们失去诊断。
Michael Kilgard: We're still not there yet, but we've now gone all the way through animal studies showing that animals with stroke benefit from physical therapy, but they don't make a complete recovery.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我们还没有做到这一点，但我们现在已经进行了动物研究，表明中风的动物可以从物理治疗中受益，但它们并没有完全康复。
When we add this brief burst, they make recoveries they couldn't otherwise make.
当我们加上这个短暂的爆发时，他们就能恢复原本无法恢复的状态。
Michael Kilgard: We did it with hemorrhagic stroke, we did it with ischemic stroke, we did it with peripheral nerve injury, we did it with spinal cord injury, and we finally said, "This is working so well, we should go try this in humans," fully expecting it not to work.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我们对出血性中风、缺血性中风、周围神经损伤、脊髓损伤进行了实验，最后我们说，“这很有效，我们应该在人类身上尝试一下”，完全预计它不会起作用。
Michael Kilgard: Why would it not work?
迈克尔·基尔加德：为什么它不起作用？
Because it usually doesn't work.
因为它通常不起作用。
Lots of things work under careful laboratory conditions, and you show up in the real world, and you're stymied.
很多事情都是在仔细的实验室条件下进行的，而当你出现在现实世界中时，你就会受到阻碍。
You can't figure this out.
你无法弄清楚这一点。
Michael Kilgard: And one reason for that is because in the lab, we can adjust the condition to be just bad enough, and the treatment can be very powerful, and there's no side effects and all that stuff.
迈克尔·基尔加德：原因之一是因为在实验室中，我们可以将病情调整到足够糟糕的程度，并且治疗方法可以非常有效，而且没有副作用之类的东西。
Michael Kilgard: Doctors get patients who show up.
迈克尔·基尔加德：医生会招收前来就诊的患者。
They get in a car accident, they get what they get.
他们遭遇车祸，他们得到了他们得到的。
They don't get to make it, and adjust it.
他们无法做到并调整它。
So, it was very humbling to try to ask the first participants, first ones actually had tinnitus or tinnitus, the ringing of the ears.
因此，尝试询问第一批参与者是非常令人谦卑的，第一批参与者实际上有耳鸣或耳鸣，耳鸣。
Later participants had stroke, now spinal cord injury, and post-traumatic stress disorder.
后来的参与者患有中风，现在是脊髓损伤和创伤后应激障碍。
In each case, it's super scary, because we start off with a 99% chance of failure.
在每种情况下，这都非常可怕，因为我们一开始就有 99% 的失败机会。
That's the chance a given new idea in neuroscience works.
这就是神经科学领域某个新想法发挥作用的机会。
Don't worry, we've got lots of ideas.
别担心，我们有很多想法。
Michael Kilgard: So, we keep testing them, and luckily the public has been very supportive of us.
Michael Kilgard：所以，我们不断测试它们，幸运的是公众一直非常支持我们。
"Just keep trying.
“继续努力吧。
Keep trying.
继续努力。
That amyloid thing's not working so good for you.
淀粉样蛋白对你的作用不太好。
Keep trying.
继续努力。
Don't give up." My grandmother died of Alzheimer's.
不要放弃。”我的祖母死于阿尔茨海默氏症。
So, don't give up just because something's not working.
因此，不要仅仅因为某些事情不起作用而放弃。
Michael Kilgard: Maybe it's going to work tomorrow.
迈克尔·基尔加德：也许明天就会起作用。
These are really hard problems.
这些都是非常困难的问题。
And now we're at a point, with FDA approval three years ago of vagus nerve stimulation for the treatment of ischemic stroke, that people can make gains they couldn't have otherwise made.
三年前，FDA 批准迷走神经刺激治疗缺血性中风，现在我们正处于一个这样的时刻，人们可以取得原本无法取得的成果。
Michael Kilgard: They could try all they want, and they just can't get those fingers to work.
迈克尔·基尔加德：他们可以尝试所有他们想要的，但他们就是无法让这些手指工作。
Now they make gains.
现在他们有所收获。
Michael Kilgard: Are they cured?
迈克尔·基尔加德：他们痊愈了吗？
No. You can still tell they've got a stroke.
不，你仍然可以看出他们中风了。
But what's interesting is the gains they made in a double-blind and placebo-controlled trial, published in 'Lancet,' is only in 18 days.
但有趣的是，他们在《柳叶刀》上发表的双盲安慰剂对照试验仅用了 18 天就取得了成果。
Eighteen days.
十八天。
You can't play violin very well in 18 days.
18天内你不可能把小提琴拉得很好。
You can't bowl very well in 18 days.
18天内你不可能打得很好。
In 18 days, they're restoring their function of their hand.
18 天后，他们的手部功能就恢复了。
Michael Kilgard: And now we send them home, and we enable them to activate their own vagus nerve while they're doing gardening activities, or fishing activities, or doing the dishes.
迈克尔·基尔加德：现在我们把他们送回家，让他们在做园艺活动、钓鱼活动或洗碗时激活自己的迷走神经。
Michael Kilgard: And what we're seeing now is although it's slower, they're continuing to make progress day on, day on by activating this network, and telling the brain, "This is really important." The answer is, it's not really important.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我们现在看到的是，虽然速度较慢，但他们通过激活这个网络并告诉大脑“这真的很重要”，日复一日地继续取得进展。答案是，这并不重要。
It's just gardening.
这只是园艺。
Michael Kilgard: But we have to kind of lie to the brain a little bit and say, "Look, you're never going to get over this," because the brain is very conservative.
迈克尔·基尔加德：但我们必须对大脑撒一点谎，说：“听着，你永远无法克服这个问题”，因为大脑非常保守。
It does not want to forget all of your memories.
它不想忘记你所有的记忆。
Michael Kilgard: It doesn't want to forget your childhood.
迈克尔·基尔加德：它不想忘记你的童年。
It doesn't want to forget your language.
它不想忘记你的语言。
It doesn't want to forget all your skills.
它不想忘记你所有的技能。
So, it's very conservative of what it changes.
因此，它对改变的内容非常保守。
Michael Kilgard: And after injury, in this case a stroke, there's a hole in your head.
迈克尔·基尔加德：受伤后，在这种情况下是中风，你的头上有一个洞。
Neurons are dead.
神经元死了。
There's a problem.
有问题。
I've got to make big changes, but I wasn't expecting this, because in evolution, if you get a hole in your head, you just die.
我必须做出重大改变，但我没想到会这样，因为在进化中，如果你的头上有一个洞，你就会死。
There's no ICU.
没有重症监护室。
No one is coming to save you.
没有人会来救你。
You just die.
你就死吧。
Michael Kilgard: And so, we never had the chance to practice getting good at recovering.
迈克尔·基尔加德：所以，我们从来没有机会练习如何恢复。
We now know we could make better gains.
我们现在知道我们可以取得更好的收益。
Michael Kilgard: And the paper you mentioned in 'Nature,' same thing happened with spinal cord injuries.
迈克尔·基尔加德：你在《自然》杂志上提到的那篇论文，同样的情况也发生在脊髓损伤上。
Michael Kilgard: People who have had, years ago, spinal cord injuries.
迈克尔·基尔加德：多年前曾遭受脊髓损伤的人。
They could barely move it.
他们几乎无法移动它。
We only pick people who have some movement.
我们只挑选有一定活动能力的人。
If there's no movement, we have nothing to reward, nothing to condition, nothing to strengthen.
如果没有运动，我们就没有什么可以奖励，没有什么可以调节，没有什么可以加强。
Michael Kilgard: So, we chose people who had incomplete injuries, meaning they still have some function, but they are obviously impaired.
迈克尔·基尔加德：所以，我们选择了不完全损伤的人，这意味着他们仍然有一些功能，但他们明显受损。
Then we repeatedly paired, with the physical therapists, they're the real experts, they said, "This is the right muscle you should be practicing with."
然后我们反复配对，与物理治疗师，他们是真正的专家，他们说，“这就是你应该练习的正确肌肉。”
Michael Kilgard: There's different muscles in your hand that do different things.
迈克尔·基尔加德：你手上有不同的肌肉，可以做不同的事情。
They measure what you can't do, but you can kind of do, and we practice that.
他们衡量你不能做什么，但你可以做什么，我们会实践这一点。
Michael Kilgard: And then we, the neuroscientists, come in with an engineering approach.
迈克尔·基尔加德：然后我们，神经科学家，提出了一种工程方法。
Rob Rennaker built the tiny vagus nerve stimulator.
罗布·雷纳克 (Rob Rennaker) 制造了微型迷走神经刺激器。
And then we found physicians and clinicians who were like-minded and said, "Let's give this a shot." And we didn't think it would work.
然后我们找到志同道合的医生和临床医生说：“让我们试一试。”我们认为这行不通。
Michael Kilgard: It happens to have worked, and now there's a vagus nerve stimulator.
迈克尔·基尔加德：它恰好有效，现在有迷走神经刺激器。
Full disclosure, I'm an inventor of, and shareholder, and my university requires me to disclose that, so I'll disclose that now, in a company called MicroTransponder.
全面披露，我是该公司的发明者和股东，我的大学要求我披露这一点，所以我现在将在一家名为 MicroTransponder 的公司披露这一点。
A little spinoff from my university, University of Texas at Dallas.
这是我的大学德克萨斯大学达拉斯分校的一个小衍生品。
Michael Kilgard: And now you can go to your doctor, and he can write a prescription for you to get an implant to help your physical therapist do their job.
迈克尔·基尔加德：现在你可以去看医生，他可以为你开处方植入植入物，以帮助你的物理治疗师完成他们的工作。
And it's not like the physical therapist wasn't trying.
物理治疗师并不是没有尝试。
They're working hard.
他们正在努力工作。
It's not like the person didn't want to get better.
这并不是说这个人不想变得更好。
Michael Kilgard: But the idea that you could just practice your way out of something, sometimes true, many people make a complete recovery from injuries, but many people don't.
迈克尔·基尔加德：但是，你可以通过练习来摆脱某些事情，有时这是真的，很多人都能从伤病中完全康复，但也有很多人没有。
Michael Kilgard: And we now have this little boost, this little tool.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我们现在有了这个小小的推动力，这个小工具。
I think of it like a screwdriver.
我认为它就像一把螺丝刀。
If you're trying to fix your car and you don't have a screwdriver, all the knowledge in the world won't do any good.
如果您想修理汽车而没有螺丝刀，那么世界上所有的知识都没有任何用处。
Michael Kilgard: It doesn't do the fixing, but it gives you a new tool in the toolbox.
Michael Kilgard：它不进行修复，但它为您提供了工具箱中的新工具。
So, now physical therapists and occupational therapists can give that extra boost, because physical therapy is fundamentally kind of boring.
所以，现在物理治疗师和职业治疗师可以提供额外的推动，因为物理治疗从根本上来说有点无聊。
Michael Kilgard: Move your fingers, move your fingers, move your fingers.
迈克尔·基尔加德：移动你的手指，移动你的手指，移动你的手指。
It's not really life or death.
这并不是真正的生或死。
We're adding this boost so that the neurons don't give up on it.
我们添加这种增强是为了让神经元不会放弃它。
It's going to take thousands of repeats, and it needs to feel important.
这需要重复数千次，并且需要让人感觉很重要。
Michael Kilgard: And when you're learning to ski, if you don't do it right, you're going to go tumbling down the mountain.
迈克尔·基尔加德：当你学习滑雪时，如果你做得不对，你就会从山上滚下来。
When you're a baby and you're trying to walk, you're going to hit your face.
当你还是个婴儿的时候，当你试图走路时，你可能会撞到自己的脸。
Michael Kilgard: We're doing therapy safely, so no one's actually in any danger, but by tricking the system, hacking the vagus nerve, just these small number of stretch receptors from the heart and lungs, activating those, which people don't typically feel, by activating those, we send the signal, release this cocktail of these three neurotransmitters, and now the synaptic eligibility trace, instead of letting that potential strengthening go away, it just keeps building it, building and building it.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我们正在安全地进行治疗，所以实际上没有人处于任何危险中，但是通过欺骗系统，侵入迷走神经，只是来自心脏和肺部的少量牵张感受器，激活人们通常感觉不到的那些，通过激活它们，我们发送信号，释放这三种神经递质的混合物，现在突触资格跟踪，而不是让潜在的强化消失，它只是不断地构建它，构建和构建它。
Michael Kilgard: And we're now seeing, even years later, after people have been implanted, they're still making continual gains.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我们现在看到，即使是在几年后，在人们被植入之后，他们仍然在不断取得进步。
Michael Kilgard: And that's surprising.
迈克尔·基尔加德：这令人惊讶。
It seemed like they had a sentence, 'No more progress.
好像他们有一句话，‘没有更多的进展。
You're an adult.
你是一个成年人了。
No more plasticity.' But that's inconsistent with what we know.
不再有可塑性。但这与我们所知的不一致。
I can learn new things anytime.
我可以随时学习新东西。
Andrew Huberman: Sure.
安德鲁·休伯曼：当然。
Michael Kilgard: But why couldn't you get better from stroke?
迈克尔·基尔加德：但是为什么你不能从中风中康复呢？
The hole in your head was too great.
你头上的洞太大了。
Evolution didn't prepare you for that kind of injury.
进化并没有让你为这种伤害做好准备。
Now we're finding we can make progress even with stroke, spinal cord injury, tinnitus, and post-traumatic stress disorder.
现在我们发现，即使是中风、脊髓损伤、耳鸣和创伤后应激障碍，我们也能取得进展。
Andrew Huberman: Amazing.
安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。
And I have many questions.
我有很多问题。
So, I want to first just briefly rewind to the topic of neuromodulators and just clear one thing up for myself.
因此，我想首先简单回顾一下神经调节剂的主题，并为自己澄清一件事。
It's really a question.
这确实是一个问题。
Andrew Huberman: I have to say, I'm fascinated and surprised by the fact that whether you stimulate the release of acetylcholine, or dopamine, or serotonin, or norepinephrine, you get the same effect, which is essentially you get more plasticity from fewer effort trials.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我不得不说，我着迷和惊讶的是，无论你刺激乙酰胆碱、多巴胺、血清素还是去甲肾上腺素的释放，你都会得到相同的效果，这本质上是你从更少的努力试验中获得更多的可塑性。
Andrew Huberman: Basically, you get the kind of learning, the changes in the brain and learning that would occur over the course of many weeks or months, you can condense down to days.
安德鲁·休伯曼：基本上，你会得到那种学习，大脑的变化和学习会在几周或几个月的过程中发生，你可以压缩到几天。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Even one day.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哪怕有一天。
And I must say, and I'm not saying this just because you're sitting across from me, I have 10 favorite papers in all of science, and your science paper, stimulating nucleus basalis while exposing animals to a eight kilohertz tone, I believe it was, and showing this massive rewiring of the adult auditory cortex to over-represent that tone, when I saw those images, I can still see them in my mind, they're blue and purple and, like, I know exactly what they look like, and it's just like, wow.
我必须说，我这么说并不是因为你坐在我对面，我在所有科学领域有 10 篇最喜欢的论文，还有你的科学论文，刺激基底核，同时将动物暴露在八千赫兹的音调中，我相信是这样，并展示了成人听觉皮层的大规模重新布线以过度代表该音调，当我看到这些图像时，我仍然可以在我的脑海中看到它们，它们是蓝色和紫色的，就像，我确切地知道它们看起来是什么就像，就像，哇。
Michael Kilgard: Mm-hmm.
迈克尔·基尔加德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: It went against everything we had learned in our neuroscience textbooks.
Andrew Huberman：这违背了我们在神经科学教科书中学到的一切。
This wasn't supposed to be possible, right?
这本来是不可能的，对吧？
Critical periods are over.
关键时期已经过去了。
These are adult animals.
这些是成年动物。
It shouldn't happen.
这不应该发生。
Andrew Huberman: And then when I learned about the Recanzone and Merzenich work, that you were talking about of whatever the subjects are attending to, either touch or hearing, that's where the plasticity occurred.
Andrew Huberman：然后，当我了解到 Recanzone 和 Merzenich 的作品时，你谈论的是受试者所关注的任何事物，无论是触觉还是听觉，这就是可塑性发生的地方。
Michael Kilgard: Mm-hmm.
迈克尔·基尔加德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And just to this day, blows my mind.
Andrew Huberman：直到今天，这仍然让我大吃一惊。
Andrew Huberman: I assumed it was all governed by acetylcholine.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为这一切都是由乙酰胆碱控制的。
And I have a bunch of pet theories in my mind now about why nature, as a tinkerer, might have come up with different circuits that could do that.
我现在脑子里有一堆可爱的理论，关于为什么大自然作为一个修补匠可能会想出不同的电路来做到这一点。
Andrew Huberman: But we'll save that for, you know, over a coffee offline discussion, because it would just be a wandering discussion.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：但是我们会把这个留到，你知道，通过咖啡线下讨论，因为这只是一个漫无目的的讨论。
However, there is this parallel universe to the one that you exist in with neurostimulation, which is that many, many people are interested in taking drugs, prescription or otherwise, that they can use to open the door to, and enhance neuroplasticity.
然而，存在一个与神经刺激存在的平行宇宙，即许多人对服用药物、处方或其他药物感兴趣，他们可以用它们来打开大门并增强神经可塑性。
Andrew Huberman: And I've been positively struck by the data on psychedelics.
Andrew Huberman：迷幻药的数据给我留下了深刻的印象。
Traditionally, the psychedelics are LSD, lysergic acid diethylamide, and psilocybin, both of which augment serotonin, act through specific receptors.
传统上，致幻剂是LSD、麦角酸二乙酰胺和裸盖菇素，这两种药物都可以增强血清素，通过特定受体发挥作用。
Andrew Huberman: And the data there from the clinical trials speak to pretty impressive results in some trials in relieving major depression.
Andrew Huberman：临床试验的数据表明，一些缓解重度抑郁症的试验取得了令人印象深刻的结果。
MDMA, methylenedioxymethamphetamine.
MDMA，亚甲二氧基甲基苯丙胺。
Methamphetamine, we have to remind people these are illegal drugs.
甲基苯丙胺，我们必须提醒人们这些是非法药物。
Schedule I drugs, at least currently.
附表一药物，至少目前是这样。
Andrew Huberman: Pretty impressive results for treatment of PTSD, provided in all these cases that you have proper therapeutic support going into these sessions, during, and afterwards.
Andrew Huberman：创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）的治疗效果非常令人印象深刻，前提是在所有这些情况下，您在这些疗程中、期间和之后都得到适当的治疗支持。
We're not talking about people just taking these recreationally.
我们并不是在谈论人们只是为了娱乐而进行这些活动。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: When I saw those data, I just kind of went, "Okay, well, it's neuromodulators opening the window to plasticity." When I think about neurostimulation now, the way you're describing it, I think, okay, if it's an electrode or a microelectrode or whatever it is, stimulating plasticity.
Andrew Huberman：当我看到这些数据时，我就想，“好吧，好吧，这是神经调节剂打开了可塑性的窗口。”当我现在考虑神经刺激时，按照你描述的方式，我想，好吧，如果它是电极或微电极或其他任何东西，可以刺激可塑性。
Andrew Huberman: And when I think of somebody working as hard as they possibly can without it, ingesting any psychedelics or any neurostimulator in the therapist's office week after week, or these people who have a stroke, or a spinal cord injury just doing their physical therapy, just working as hard as they can to try and recover any kind of movement.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：当我想到有人在没有它的情况下尽可能努力地工作，在治疗师办公室里一周又一周地服用任何致幻剂或任何神经刺激器，或者这些中风或脊髓损伤的人只是在进行物理治疗，只是尽最大努力尝试恢复任何类型的运动。
I think of the same thing, they're just neuroplasticity.
我也有同样的想法，它们只是神经可塑性。
They're trying to get that little squirt of acetylcholine out in their brain.
他们试图将那一点点乙酰胆碱喷入大脑。
Michael Kilgard: Yep.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And then, of course, there's this other parallel universe of people who augment acetylcholine through now oral nicotine, right?
安德鲁·休伯曼：当然，还有另一个平行宇宙的人通过现在口服尼古丁来增加乙酰胆碱，对吗？
Stimulate nicotinic acetylcholine receptor, and on and on.
刺激烟碱乙酰胆碱受体，等等。
Andrew Huberman: And so, it seems to me that the requirements, this is an AND gate type arrangement, you need neuromodulator present, you need a particular pattern of firing in the neurons so that there's a chance that they wire together, or wire apart, whatever you're trying to drive the circuit to do, and you need a strong intention.
Andrew Huberman：所以，在我看来，要求是一个“与”门类型的安排，你需要存在神经调节器，你需要神经元中的特定发射模式，以便它们有机会连接在一起或分开，无论你试图驱动电路做什么，你需要一个强烈的意图。
You need that friction and focus from the person.
你需要对方的摩擦和关注。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: So, on the one hand, it seems like we need specificity, and that's where we're going to go next, talking about the vagal stimulators that you work on, and are getting such incredible results with.
Andrew Huberman：所以，一方面，我们似乎需要特异性，这就是我们下一步要做的，谈论您正在研究的迷走神经刺激器，并获得了如此令人难以置信的结果。
Andrew Huberman: But on the other side of the coin, it's like you just need these chemicals present.
Andrew Huberman：但从另一方面来说，你只需要这些化学物质就可以了。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: So, for instance, if I want to learn something, and I'm going to focus as hard as I can on it, I will occasionally take, you know, these are very low dosages, 2 milligrams of nicotine.
Andrew Huberman：所以，举例来说，如果我想学习一些东西，并且我要尽我所能地集中精力，我偶尔会服用，你知道，这些剂量非常低，2毫克尼古丁。
I don't do this lately.
我最近不做这个了。
I just did an experiment last year.
我去年刚刚做了一个实验。
I didn't like it, because it made my throat spasm a little bit when I wasn't taking the gum.
我不喜欢它，因为当我不吃口香糖时，它会让我的喉咙有点痉挛。
Michael Kilgard: Hmm.
迈克尔·基尔加德：嗯。
Michael Kilgard: Mm-hmm.
迈克尔·基尔加德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: The muscarinic receptor business explains that.
Andrew Huberman：毒蕈碱受体业务解释了这一点。
So, I stopped.
所以，我停了下来。
But yeah, it provides a stimulant effect.
但是，是的，它提供了兴奋作用。
Andrew Huberman: But here's my question, if we just globally raise acetylcholine by taking a drug, do you get the opposite effect as you get from globally decreasing acetylcholine activity by taking a drug, which you said makes you forget?
安德鲁·休伯曼：但我的问题是，如果我们通过服用药物在全球范围内提高乙酰胆碱，你会得到与通过服用药物在全球范围内降低乙酰胆碱活性相反的效果吗？你说这会让你忘记？
Andrew Huberman: If you just globally raise acetylcholine by taking, I don't know, what's a good example of a drug that will do that for an Alzheimer's patient or for...
安德鲁·休伯曼：如果你只是通过服用来在全球范围内提高乙酰胆碱，我不知道，有什么药物可以为阿尔茨海默氏症患者或......
Michael Kilgard: I mean, all of the drugs of abuse will increase-
迈克尔·基尔加德：我的意思是，所有滥用药物的情况都会增加——
Andrew Huberman: Nicotine.
安德鲁·休伯曼：尼古丁。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
All of the drugs of abuse will increase acetylcholine, as well as increasing dopamine.
所有滥用的药物都会增加乙酰胆碱以及多巴胺。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Michael Kilgard: So, there's a lot.
迈克尔·基尔加德：所以，有很多。
Andrew Huberman: Or dopamine apomorphine.
Andrew Huberman：或多巴胺阿扑吗啡。
Michael Kilgard: Yep.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Apomorphine, you know, people take apomorphine for various reasons.
Andrew Huberman：阿扑吗啡，你知道，人们出于各种原因服用阿扑吗啡。
It improves the working memory, we know this, at least in the short term for people that have modest to low dopamine going in.
我们知道，它可以改善工作记忆，至少在短期内对于多巴胺水平中等或较低的人来说是这样。
If you already have high dopamine, probably not going to do much.
如果你的多巴胺水平已经很高，可能不会做太多事情。
Andrew Huberman: But it sounds like you just need to boost a neuromodulator, or some small cocktail of these four neuromodulators, and the opportunity for plasticity does indeed expand, regardless of the entry point that you take.
Andrew Huberman：但听起来你只需要增强一种神经调节剂，或者这四种神经调节剂的一些小混合物，无论你采取什么切入点，可塑性的机会确实会扩大。
Andrew Huberman: Is that your view as well?
安德鲁·胡伯曼：这也是你的观点吗？
Because you're working in an area where...
因为你工作的地区...
And by the way, I brought along one of these stimulators to this recording.
顺便说一句，我在录音中带了其中一个刺激器。
Michael was kind enough to give me one.
迈克尔很友善地给了我一张。
I don't know, did you gift this to me, or are you taking it back to Texas with you?
我不知道，这是你送给我的礼物，还是你要把它带回德克萨斯州？
Okay.
好的。
This thing is smaller.
这东西比较小。
This is a little chip that is smaller than my pinky nail.
这是一个比我的小指指甲还要小的碎片。
I'll hold it up for the camera.
我会把它举起来拍照。
We can provide a link to an image of it in the show note captions for those of you who are listening.
我们可以在节目注释标题中为正在收听的人提供指向该图像的链接。
It's tiny, tiny.
它很小，很小。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: This would be inserted about three centimeters deep in an outpatient thing, in and out of the clinic.
Andrew Huberman：这将被插入诊所内外的门诊设备中约三厘米深。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Probably less painful than a dental cleaning.
安德鲁·休伯曼：可能比洗牙更痛苦。
Michael Kilgard: Yep.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Especially if you like going to the dentist as little as I do.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：特别是如果你像我一样不喜欢去看牙医。
This thing is all about specificity.
这一切都与特殊性有关。
It's all about not having to take a drug.
这一切都是为了不必服用药物。
Michael Kilgard: Yep.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Where's the trade-off?
Andrew Huberman：权衡在哪里？
What are the benefits?
有什么好处？
What are the drawbacks of going with a microstimulator versus, I don't know, I'm not saying people should run out and take psilocybin or apomorphine, but by the logic that you just need an increase in a neuromodulator, it works.
我不知道使用微刺激器有什么缺点，我并不是说人们应该跑出去服用裸盖菇素或阿朴吗啡，但按照你只需要增加神经调节剂的逻辑，它是有效的。
Michael Kilgard: My background was in biochemistry, my degree from Berkeley is in biochemistry.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我的背景是生物化学，我在伯克利获得的学位是生物化学。
I just thought, 'Let's get the biochemistry right, and people will get better.'
我只是想，‘让我们把生物化学搞清楚，人们就会变得更好。’
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Kilgard: And then I had to learn about the brain, and the brain says it's the timing.
迈克尔·基尔加德：然后我必须了解大脑，大脑说现在是时候了。
The psychologists have told us from the very beginning, "Timing, timing, timing, timing, timing." Just back to Pavlov, you can ring the bell, you can feed the dog, but they have to happen at the same time.
心理学家从一开始就告诉我们，“时机，时机，时机，时机，时机”。回到巴甫洛夫，你可以按铃，你可以喂狗，但它们必须同时发生。
Michael Kilgard: And if you just reward everything, that's similar to rewarding nothing.
迈克尔·基尔加德：如果你只奖励一切，那就类似于不奖励任何东西。
So, the real issue...
那么，真正的问题...
And I actually spent more than five years of my life trying to do this without a device.
事实上，我花了五年多的时间尝试在没有设备的情况下做到这一点。
Michael Kilgard: So, I had had success using the deep brain stimulator, and I said, "I don't want to put deep brain stimulators.
迈克尔·基尔加德：所以，我成功地使用了深部大脑刺激器，我说，“我不想放置深部大脑刺激器。
I can't imagine putting hundreds of thousands of people with deep brain stimulators." It seemed like too much, too many.
我无法想象让数十万人接受深度脑刺激器。”看起来太多了，太多了。
Neurosurgeons say, "It's safe, no problem." But I just thought, 'There's got to be an easier way.'
神经外科医生说：“很安全，没问题。”但我只是想，“一定有一种更简单的方法。”
Michael Kilgard: And so I did exactly what you said.
迈克尔·基尔加德：所以我完全按照你说的做了。
I said, "What are the ways to increase acetylcholine, norepinephrine, serotonin?" Microdialysis made it clear which things do it.
我说：“有什么方法可以增加乙酰胆碱、去甲肾上腺素、血清素？”微透析明确了哪些物质可以发挥作用。
Amphetamine, of course, nicotine, all these things, it's very easy.
安非他明，当然还有尼古丁，所有这些东西，都很容易。
Cocaine, all these things do it.
可卡因，所有这些东西都会起作用。
And I did experiment, after experiment, after experiment, after experiment.
我做了一次又一次的实验，一次又一次的实验，一次又一次的实验。
I still feel bad for the graduate students who did all of those experiments.
我仍然为做所有这些实验的研究生感到难过。
Andrew Huberman: Adderall?
安德鲁·休伯曼：阿得拉？
Did they...
他们有没有...
Michael Kilgard: Did Adderall, did all of them, paired with a tone, and it just didn't change anything.
迈克尔·基尔加德（Michael Kilgard）：加了阿得拉（Adderall），做了所有这些，并搭配了一种语气，但它并没有改变任何东西。
And that's because the tone only comes on once in a while, and there's just ongoing activity.
这是因为声音只会偶尔出现一次，而且只有持续的活动。
Neurons are firing.
神经元正在放电。
If you record neurons, they're firing all the time.
如果你记录神经元，它们一直在放电。
Michael Kilgard: Only one action potential is the tone action potential.
迈克尔·基尔加德：只有一种动作电位是音调动作电位。
The neuron's firing at 4 or 5 hertz, sometimes 20 hertz, just popping along all the time, and then you get one more spike when you record these neurons, when a drift in gradient goes by, or a scene, or whatever.
神经元以 4 或 5 赫兹（有时是 20 赫兹）的频率发射，一直在弹出，然后当您记录这些神经元时，当梯度漂移或场景发生时，您会得到另一个尖峰。
It's not much more.
也仅此而已。
Andrew Huberman: Spike is action potential, electrical firing of neurons.
Andrew Huberman：尖峰是动作电位，即神经元的电放电。
We should just clarify that.
我们应该澄清这一点。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Michael Kilgard: And so how does the brain know which thing?
迈克尔·基尔加德：那么大脑如何知道哪件事呢？
There's 150 trillion connections.
有 150 万亿个连接。
Which one am I asking for more of?
我对哪一项要求更多？
You've got to tell me which.
你必须告诉我是哪一个。
Everything.
一切。
Make more of everything.
让一切变得更多。
That doesn't help the network work very well.
这无助于网络正常运行。
Michael Kilgard: So, my understanding of the world that I live in is sort of a post-Aristotle four humors idea that, it's not that there's too little or too much of these things, it's the timing that matters.
迈克尔·基尔加德：所以，我对我生活的世界的理解有点像后亚里士多德的四种幽默观念，并不是这些东西太少或太多，重要的是时机。
Michael Kilgard: And when I watch a really good coach, they're really into that.
迈克尔·基尔加德：当我看到一位非常优秀的教练时，他们真的很喜欢。
They're going, "That was it.
他们会说：“就是这样。
That thing right there, that's what I want you to pay attention to." And back to the reflection thing, like, let's think back.
就在那里，这就是我希望你注意的事情。”回到反思的事情，比如，让我们回想一下。
That was the part where you were at ease there, or whatever it was.
那是你在那里感到轻松的部分，或者无论是什么。
Michael Kilgard: There were these moments of learning.
迈克尔·基尔加德：有一些学习的时刻。
And, of course, there's an hour of heavy working out, you know, whatever it is, on Spanish verbs, or on rock climbing.
当然，还有一个小时的高强度锻炼，你知道，不管是什么，西班牙语动词，或者攀岩。
But there's these moments where you're figuring out that was the connection.
但有时你会发现这就是联系。
Michael Kilgard: We sometimes call them aha moments, and we think maybe the neuromodulator is being released at that aha moment.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我们有时称其为“顿悟时刻”，我们认为神经调节剂可能在那个“顿悟时刻”被释放。
They are.
他们是。
Michael Kilgard: I can tell you, a lot of experiments have been done when you're having a, 'Oh my god, something just happened,' those neurons are having exposure to those neurotransmitters.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我可以告诉你，当你有“天哪，刚刚发生了一些事情”时，已经做了很多实验，这些神经元正在接触那些神经递质。
Michael Kilgard: So, then the question is, why doesn't it work if the brain rewires for that particular tone?
迈克尔·基尔加德：那么问题是，如果大脑针对特定的音调进行重新连接，为什么它不起作用？
It kind of does.
确实如此。
It's not that it doesn't work at all.
并不是说它根本不起作用。
Michael Kilgard: And as you said, some conditions are so bad that you can do very non-selective things.
迈克尔·基尔加德：正如你所说，有些条件非常糟糕，你可以做非常非选择性的事情。
And the classic example would be if you have major depressive disorder and you do electroconvulsive therapy.
典型的例子是，如果您患有重度抑郁症并接受电休克治疗。
We're not pushing your brain toward any particular goal.
我们不会推动你的大脑走向任何特定的目标。
We're triggering a seizure in the brain.
我们正在引发大脑癫痫发作。
It's going to change the brain, but we're not telling it which way to go.
它会改变大脑，但我们不会告诉它该走哪条路。
Michael Kilgard: And somehow, people tend to recover from that in a better state than they went into it, because it was so bad to begin with.
迈克尔·基尔加德：不知何故，人们往往会以比刚开始时更好的状态恢复，因为一开始就很糟糕。
Andrew Huberman: What are the statistics on electroconvulsive therapy?
Andrew Huberman：电休克治疗的统计数据是什么？
I mean, some of us are familiar with the end of, you know, 'One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest,' where Jack Nicholson's getting, you know, he's bite barred into the process, and coming out like a vegetable.
我的意思是，我们中的一些人都熟悉《飞越疯人院》的结局，杰克·尼科尔森在这个过程中被咬住了，然后像蔬菜一样出来。
Michael Kilgard: Mm-hmm.
迈克尔·基尔加德：嗯嗯。
Michael Kilgard: Mm-hmm.
迈克尔·基尔加德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: But that's not what happens, right?
Andrew Huberman：但事实并非如此，对吧？
Most people emerge from it pretty intact, and you're saying much better in terms of their overall mood.
大多数人都完好无损地摆脱了困境，而且你说他们的整体情绪要好得多。
What percentage go into remission?
有多少百分比进入缓解期？
What percentage feel significantly better?
感觉明显好转的比例是多少？
Michael Kilgard: So, we don't know the answer to that, because the randomized control trials were not done at that time.
迈克尔·基尔加德：所以，我们不知道答案，因为当时还没有进行随机对照试验。
My colleagues, who are psychiatrists, say it's the most effective thing we have for people who are treatment-resistant to all the other treatments.
我的精神科医生同事说，对于那些对所有其他治疗方法都耐药的人来说，这是我们拥有的最有效的方法。
So, I don't have an answer for you.
所以，我没有办法给你答案。
Michael Kilgard: Normally, we do a sham control, and these people are anesthetized when it happens, so they would never know which one happened.
迈克尔·基尔加德：通常情况下，我们会进行假对照，这些人在发生时会被麻醉，所以他们永远不会知道发生了哪一件事。
The study's easy to do, it's just you can't do it in rats, because rats don't have depression.
这项研究很容易做，只是你不能在老鼠身上做，因为老鼠没有抑郁症。
And right now, no one is signing up.
而现在，没有人报名。
Michael Kilgard: If you have a sign-up for actual therapy, or a 50% chance of getting a therapy, people tend not to sign up.
Michael Kilgard：如果您报名参加实际治疗，或者有 50% 的机会获得治疗，人们往往不会报名。
So, the answer's not known.
所以，答案还不得而知。
Michael Kilgard: If we did, we'd get a responder rate in both groups.
Michael Kilgard：如果我们这样做，我们就会得到两组的响应率。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Kilgard: We'd say, let's say, it's 60% or 50% response rate, where they're better, and we get a sham response rate, let's say it's 25% get better, even when you don't do it.
Michael Kilgard：我们会说，比方说，有 60% 或 50% 的反应率，他们更好，而我们得到一个假反应率，比方说，有 25% 的反应率变得更好，即使你不这样做。
Michael Kilgard: You'd subtract those two, which is 25%, take the inverse of that, and you'd get a number needed to treat a four.
Michael Kilgard：你减去这两个，即 25%，取其倒数，你就会得到处理 4 所需的数字。
That's how we now work on these medications.
这就是我们现在研究这些药物的方式。
Michael Kilgard: We think about, what's the difference in the percent that you're going to get better with a double-blind placebo control?
Michael Kilgard：我们想一想，使用双盲安慰剂对照后，病情好转的百分比有什么不同？
That data's not available.
该数据不可用。
But the general idea is the symptoms are clear.
但总的想法是症状很明显。
People, the day before that happens, all those memories are gone.
人们，在那件事发生的前一天，所有的记忆都消失了。
You'll have no memories whatsoever.
你将没有任何记忆。
So, if people do this 20 times, as they typically do, they'll lose 20 days of their life, which they never get back.
因此，如果人们像通常那样这样做 20 次，他们就会失去 20 天的生命，而且永远无法挽回。
Andrew Huberman: Twenty times they have to go through the ECT?
Andrew Huberman：他们必须经过二十次 ECT？
Michael Kilgard: Many people will do it on a regular basis.
迈克尔·基尔加德：很多人都会定期这样做。
Andrew Huberman: Doing electric shock therapy, EST, 20 times?
Andrew Huberman：进行 EST 电击疗法 20 次？
Michael Kilgard: Yes.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Oh, I thought they just go in once.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哦，我以为他们只进去一次。
Michael Kilgard: They're typically sessions of three is my understanding.
Michael Kilgard：据我了解，这些会议通常由三人组成。
Again, I'm not a practicing psychiatrist, so take this, talk with your own physician.
再说一遍，我不是执业精神科医生，所以请接受这个，与您自己的医生交谈。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Kilgard: Typically, you do a sequence of them.
迈克尔·基尔加德：通常，你会做一系列的事情。
People, as you know, in major depression have sort of a cycling pattern, as most neurological disorders and psychiatric disorders do.
如您所知，患有重度抑郁症的人有某种循环模式，就像大多数神经系统疾病和精神疾病一样。
So, they'll go in during a time when they're bad.
所以，他们会在状态不好的时候介入。
Michael Kilgard: Now, if you do nothing, they'll tend to be better later, because you went in when they were worse.
迈克尔·基尔加德：现在，如果你什么都不做，他们以后往往会变得更好，因为你在他们更糟糕的时候介入了。
But the evidence, experience from colleagues I trust, is this is really working.
但我信任的同事的证据和经验表明，这确实有效。
We've tried everything else.
我们已经尝试了其他一切。
Michael Kilgard: And I don't know, because the studies have not been done, we don't have the answer what the exact probabilities are, unlike the other studies where we've done lots of randomized control trials with cognitive behavioral therapy.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我不知道，因为这些研究还没有完成，我们不知道确切的概率是什么，这与我们用认知行为疗法进行了大量随机对照试验的其他研究不同。
But the idea is you get a benefit.
但我们的想法是你会得到好处。
Michael Kilgard: But it's just suggestive, this is still a pretty crude technology, and practitioners of it, they're more than happy to acknowledge that.
迈克尔·基尔加德：但这只是暗示性的，这仍然是一项相当粗糙的技术，而它的实践者，他们非常乐意承认这一点。
They want the seizure to not be too bad, because if it's too bad...
他们希望癫痫发作不要太严重，因为如果太严重......
So, they have ways to start the seizure, and then stop the seizure.
因此，他们有办法开始癫痫发作，然后停止癫痫发作。
They've optimized it, so it's more effective now than it was in the Jack Nicholson days.
他们已经对其进行了优化，因此现在比杰克·尼克尔森时代更有效。
Michael Kilgard: It's not painful anymore, because people are anesthetized when it happens.
迈克尔·基尔加德：它不再痛苦了，因为当它发生时人们会被麻醉。
You don't need to be awake, you don't need to experience it.
你不需要醒来，你不需要经历它。
That wasn't an active ingredient.
那不是活性成分。
Michael Kilgard: What was an active ingredient is the seizure, which is a storm of brain signals.
迈克尔·基尔加德：活性成分是癫痫发作，这是大脑信号的风暴。
It's called a brain attack, where neurons are firing synchronously all over the brain, and releasing massive amounts of neurotransmitters at the same time.
这被称为脑攻击，整个大脑的神经元同步放电，并同时释放大量神经递质。
Michael Kilgard: That's generally something you don't want.
Michael Kilgard：这通常是你不想要的。
If you had a choice to have a seizure or not have a seizure, you would choose not to have a seizure.
如果您可以选择癫痫发作或不癫痫发作，您会选择不癫痫发作。
If you had a child, you'd rather not have a seizure.
如果您有孩子，您宁愿不要癫痫发作。
Michael Kilgard: But if someone is really stuck in a severe state, and they're at risk harming themselves, it's been determined by the powers that be that it's better to try this.
迈克尔·基尔加德：但是，如果有人真的陷入了严重的状态，并且他们面临着伤害自己的风险，那么权力决定最好尝试这个。
Michael Kilgard: And many people voluntarily do it, lose a few days, get better for months, and then come back, and cycle, and do it again.
迈克尔·基尔加德：很多人自愿这样做，休息几天，几个月好转，然后回来，循环，再做一次。
Andrew Huberman: Hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Interesting.
安德鲁·休伯曼：有趣。
Michael Kilgard: So, that idea is not a ringing endorsement.
迈克尔·基尔加德：所以，这个想法并不是一个响亮的认可。
The fact that you have to do it again, it's not a cure.
事实上你必须再做一次，这并不是治愈方法。
It wasn't pushing toward any particular thing.
它并没有推动任何特定的事情。
Michael Kilgard: I've got a number of things in my house that work kind of well, and if you give them a good whack across the top of it, it'll start up, a motor that kind of sticks.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我家里有很多东西运转得很好，如果你用力敲击它们的顶部，它就会启动，就像一个粘着的马达。
You give it a kind of whack.
你给它一种重击。
But I'm not really fixing it.
但我并没有真正修复它。
Michael Kilgard: I need to grease some bearing or something.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我需要润滑一些轴承或其他东西。
But whacking it will also work.
但敲打它也会起作用。
So, I think of, this will again date me, the 'Gilligan's Island' thing, a coconut would fall on your head, and you'd suddenly be better.
所以，我想，这将再次与我约会，“吉利根岛”的事情，一个椰子会落在你的头上，你会突然好起来。
That's the level of sophistication.
这就是复杂程度。
Michael Kilgard: But the proof of concept is it's the plasticity that's making them better.
迈克尔·基尔加德：但概念的证明是可塑性使它们变得更好。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Kilgard: We used to think that selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors worked by increasing serotonin, therefore we concluded people's serotonin was low with depression, and yet, behold, they don't have low serotonin.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我们过去认为选择性血清素再摄取抑制剂通过增加血清素起作用，因此我们得出结论，抑郁症患者的血清素水平较低，然而，你看，他们的血清素水平并不低。
Andrew Huberman: Right, it's a plasticity tool.
Andrew Huberman：是的，它是一种可塑性工具。
Andrew Huberman: This is so important for people to hear, because I think SSRIs have been demonized, and they do indeed have side effects.
Andrew Huberman：这对人们来说非常重要，因为我认为 SSRI 已被妖魔化，而且它们确实有副作用。
They've also helped a lot of people with OCD.
他们还帮助了很多患有强迫症的人。
Michael Kilgard: Right.
迈克尔·基尔加德：对。
Andrew Huberman: But they are a tool to induce plasticity.
Andrew Huberman：但它们是诱导可塑性的工具。
And then it becomes a question of, like, what other things are you doing to try and promote plasticity in a particular direction?
然后就变成了一个问题，比如，你还做了哪些其他事情来尝试促进特定方向的可塑性？
Andrew Huberman: I actually think it's an unresolved question as to whether or not things like psilocybin and other psychedelics, MDMA is not really a psychedelic, it's an empathogen, but whether or not the experience that one has during the so-called journey or trip is actually the source of the change, or whether it's the augmentation in serotonin, and then the things that happen afterwards.
Andrew Huberman：我实际上认为这是一个悬而未决的问题，比如裸盖菇素和其他致幻剂、MDMA 是否真的是致幻剂，它是一种移情剂，但一个人在所谓的旅程或旅途中所经历的经历是否实际上是变化的根源，或者是否是血清素的增强，以及之后发生的事情。
Andrew Huberman: My guess is it's probably both, because those sessions tend to be very emotionally laden, and so there's a lot of talk therapy work that can be done with a qualified therapist, that carries an immense emotional load, and it definitely includes the components of focus and friction.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我的猜测可能是两者兼而有之，因为这些治疗往往充满了情感负担，因此有很多谈话治疗工作可以由合格的治疗师完成，这些工作承载着巨大的情感负担，并且它肯定包括焦点和摩擦的成分。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: So, in any case.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，无论如何。
Michael Kilgard: And reprocessing later.
Michael Kilgard：稍后再处理。
We're talking about that reflection.
我们正在谈论这种反思。
I think many people after one of these experiences, they're now thinking about it in a way they weren't.
我想很多人在经历过这些经历之后，现在会以一种以前没有的方式思考它。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Kilgard: They're putting it away and we're not talking about that.
迈克尔·基尔加德：他们正在把它收起来，我们不谈论这个。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯，嗯嗯。
Michael Kilgard: So, for PTSD in particular, avoidance is a defining hallmark.
迈克尔·基尔加德：所以，特别是对于创伤后应激障碍来说，回避是一个明确的标志。
It's a criteria you have to have in the manual that defines what this is.
这是您必须在手册中定义的标准。
So, avoiding it is a problem, and now you've freed people from that.
所以，避免它是一个问题，现在你已经把人们从这个问题中解放出来了。
The work though being done, the rewiring is probably really work they're doing.
虽然工作已经完成，但重新布线可能确实是他们正在做的工作。
Michael Kilgard: It's now they're reentering that environment, they're reengaging with that relationship, they're not avoiding it, in part because they believe that they can do it, and it isn't harmful.
迈克尔·基尔加德：现在他们正在重新进入那种环境，他们正在重新建立这种关系，他们没有回避它，部分原因是他们相信自己可以做到，而且这没有害处。
That's true.
确实如此。
It isn't harmful.
它没有害处。
These are pathological avoidances that people are doing.
这些都是人们正在做的病态回避。
Michael Kilgard: The question is, can we come up with something better?
迈克尔·基尔加德：问题是，我们能想出更好的办法吗？
What are the active ingredients?
活性成分是什么？
The experiment's not yet been done, is to appropriately blind people.
实验还没有做，就是要适当地让人们失明。
So, there are many drugs that make people have a trip.
所以，有很多药物可以让人产生旅行的感觉。
Michael Kilgard: It's possible to enroll people who've never had a psychedelic before, and then they won't know.
迈克尔·基尔加德：有可能招募以前从未服用过迷幻剂的人，然后他们就不会知道。
You can give them a lot of caffeine, they might think, "I guess that's what, you know, peyote's like." They wouldn't know.
你可以给他们大量的咖啡因，他们可能会想，“我想这就是仙人掌的味道。”他们不会知道。
But that's not yet been done.
但这还没有完成。
I think it can be done.
我认为这是可以做到的。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Kilgard: Usually when people say experiments can't be done properly, I get nervous.
迈克尔·基尔加德：通常当人们说实验无法正确完成时，我会感到紧张。
We're too smart for that.
我们太聪明了，不会这么做。
We made it to the moon and back.
我们成功到达月球并返回。
We can do an experiment.
我们可以做一个实验。
So, finding out, we'll know the answer.
所以，找出答案，我们就会知道。
Michael Kilgard: On stroke, which we talked about before, enhancing plasticity, you mentioned Prozac, fluoxetine is the name of the agent, selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitor increases serotonin, and has effects on brain-derived neurotrophic factor and all the rest.
迈克尔·基尔加德：关于中风，我们之前谈到了增强可塑性，您提到了百忧解，氟西汀是药物的名称，选择性血清素再摄取抑制剂会增加血清素，并对脑源性神经营养因子和其他所有因素产生影响。
It looked really promising in animals.
它在动物身上看起来确实很有前途。
Michael Kilgard: Many, many published studies did the same thing we did, which is why we didn't think our thing was going to work.
迈克尔·基尔加德：很多很多已发表的研究都做了与我们相同的事情，这就是为什么我们认为我们的东西不会起作用。
We took the therapy, which we know is helpful, practice using your paw that's injured, and then add the selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitor, and the animals made progress.
我们采取了这种疗法，我们知道这种疗法很有帮助，用受伤的爪子进行练习，然后添加选择性血清素再摄取抑制剂，动物们取得了进步。
Michael Kilgard: And we did it again and again.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我们一次又一次地这样做。
We did it in monkeys, we did it in cats, we did it in rats, and then we did it in people.
我们在猴子身上做到了这一点，我们在猫身上做到了这一点，我们在老鼠身上做到了这一点，然后我们在人身上做到了这一点。
And lo and behold, the people got better.
你瞧，人们变得更好了。
And then we did a large scale randomized trial, and it didn't do anything.
然后我们做了一个大规模的随机试验，但没有起到任何作用。
Michael Kilgard: So, it was 1,500 people with stroke.
Michael Kilgard：所以，有 1,500 人患有中风。
We gave them Prozac.
我们给了他们百忧解。
Michael Kilgard: And you will not be surprised that the new onset of depression was slightly lower than the group who had active antidepressant.
迈克尔·基尔加德：你不会感到惊讶的是，抑郁症的新发病率略低于服用活性抗抑郁药的组。
That makes sense.
这是有道理的。
Michael Kilgard: You may or may not be surprised that the group who got the Prozac also had more hip fractures, because of course, serotonin is critically involved in laying down bone.
迈克尔·基尔加德（Michael Kilgard）：您可能会或可能不会感到惊讶的是，服用百忧解的人群也有更多的髋部骨折，因为当然，血清素在骨骼生长过程中发挥着至关重要的作用。
And so, this is really bad if you're an old person, to have a hip fracture.
所以，如果你是一个老人，髋部骨折真的很糟糕。
So, taking Prozac has off target effects.
因此，服用百忧解会产生偏离目标的效果。
Andrew Huberman: I didn't know that it diminishes bone strength.
Andrew Huberman：我不知道它会降低骨骼强度。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah, yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的，是的。
So, serotonin is really important.
所以，血清素非常重要。
The chondrocytes are the cells in the body that make bone.
软骨细胞是体内形成骨骼的细胞。
And when you mess with serotonin, you mess with those.
当你扰乱血清素时，你就会扰乱那些。
Michael Kilgard: This is a newly discovered thing for me I didn't know about is that Ritalin has effects on growth, right?
Michael Kilgard：这对我来说是一个新发现的事情，我不知道利他林对生长有影响，对吗？
So, most people now are aware if you take Ritalin, you'll end up being about an inch shorter.
所以，现在大多数人都知道，如果服用利他林，你最终会矮一英寸左右。
Michael Kilgard: This is just an off target effect.
迈克尔·基尔加德：这只是脱靶效应。
Many, many positive benefits, but there are some negative, and you have to weigh the pros and cons.
正面的好处很多很多，但也有一些负面的，你必须权衡利弊。
Michael Kilgard: So, in this case, we saw all the things we knew that Prozac did.
迈克尔·基尔加德：所以，在这种情况下，我们看到了百忧解所做的所有我们所知道的事情。
I mean, they took the drug.
我的意思是，他们服用了药物。
But their functional ability, their ability to move their hand, it wasn't any different.
但他们的功能能力，他们移动手的能力，并没有什么不同。
And why is that?
这是为什么呢？
It's because the range of problems people have is so diverse.
这是因为人们面临的问题多种多样。
Michael Kilgard: People have all kinds of other insults.
迈克尔·基尔加德：人们还有各种各样的其他侮辱。
The rats are all perfectly situated in the cage, they got exactly the lesion and all the rest.
老鼠都完美地待在笼子里，它们准确地找到了病变部位和其他部位。
Why do the first few trials work?
为什么前几次试验有效？
Because they were small, randomized trials with some, you know, confirmation bias, or some other things implicit to them.
因为它们是小型随机试验，存在一些确认偏差或其他隐含的因素。
Michael Kilgard: The Food and Drug Administration is serious.
迈克尔·基尔加德：食品和药物管理局是认真的。
Michael Kilgard: Will this really work when no one knows?
迈克尔·基尔加德：当无人知晓时，这真的会起作用吗？
None of the investigators get to see the data.
没有一个调查人员能够看到这些数据。
No one gets to look at anything.
没有人可以看任何东西。
When you run a phase three pivotal trial, it's no joke, and we usually fail.
当你进行第三阶段的关键试验时，这不是开玩笑，我们通常会失败。
And that's sad for us, because we want it to work.
这对我们来说是可悲的，因为我们希望它能够发挥作用。
But it's the truth, and we just accept it.
但这是事实，我们只能接受。
Michael Kilgard: Sometimes we go back through and say, "Maybe it worked for a subset," and we're still doing that.
迈克尔·基尔加德：有时我们会回顾并说，“也许它对一个子集有效”，我们仍然在这样做。
Maybe some people did get a benefit, but if that's true, that means some subset might have gotten worse.
也许有些人确实得到了好处，但如果这是真的，那就意味着某些人可能会变得更糟。
Good, let's select these people.
好，我们来选择这些人。
Michael Kilgard: So, I think there's a lot of failed trials we can go back to and try to figure out, maybe we didn't pick the right people.
迈克尔·基尔加德：所以，我认为我们可以回顾很多失败的试验并试图找出答案，也许我们没有选择合适的人。
Michael Kilgard: Drug companies hope that the market is as large as possible, but what we find in our animal studies is there's a narrow range.
Michael Kilgard：制药公司希望市场尽可能大，但我们在动物研究中发现市场范围很窄。
You've done some beautiful experiments looking at how to get retinal ganglion cells to regrow, and the conditions need to be just right, not too much crushed, not too little crushed.
你已经做了一些漂亮的实验，研究如何让视网膜神经节细胞重新生长，并且条件需要恰到好处，不能被太多压碎，也不能太少压碎。
You got to get it just right.
你必须把它做得恰到好处。
Michael Kilgard: I think there are a lot of things we found really do work.
Michael Kilgard：我认为我们发现很多事情确实有效。
It's just we hoped they worked as a panacea, and they don't.
我们只是希望它们能起到灵丹妙药的作用，但事实并非如此。
They might work for 10%.
他们可能只为 10% 的人工作。
Michael Kilgard: The only other therapy for stroke is called constraint-induced motor training, CIMT, and the idea is you just put a glove over the good hand, and you force someone to use their bad hand.
迈克尔·基尔加德：治疗中风的唯一另一种疗法称为约束诱导运动训练，CIMT，其想法是你只需在好的手上戴上手套，然后强迫某人使用他们的坏手。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, this is Timothy Schallert's work from years ago.
Andrew Huberman：是的，这是 Timothy Schallert 多年前的作品。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah, yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的，是的。
Andrew Huberman: You know, I love that work, because it fits nicely with what we know about recovery from visual deprivation.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你知道，我喜欢这项工作，因为它非常符合我们对视力剥夺恢复的了解。
Michael Kilgard: Exactly, you got to force movement.
迈克尔·基尔加德：没错，你必须强迫运动。
Andrew Huberman: You injure one eye, you lose vision in the pathways that that eye governs.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：你伤了一只眼睛，你就失去了那只眼睛所控制的路径的视力。
Once the eye is healthy again, you can open it up, but you have to close the other eye.
一旦眼睛恢复健康，你就可以睁开它，但你必须闭上另一只眼睛。
Recovery from any kind of injury, you have to be careful you don't over-rely on the healthy limb.
从任何类型的伤害中恢复时，您必须小心不要过度依赖健康的肢体。
So, this is also true in the context of stroke?
那么，对于中风来说也是如此吗？
Michael Kilgard: Yeah, I love the Hubel and Wiesel experiment.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的，我喜欢休贝尔和威塞尔的实验。
I think things in neuroscience are only useful if they're counterintuitive.
我认为神经科学中的东西只有在违反直觉的情况下才有用。
If they were obvious, why do we need neuroscience?
如果它们是显而易见的，为什么我们需要神经科学？
Michael Kilgard: And the idea that a kid gets a big scrape over his eye, and he's three years old, and he's got a patch on his eye for three weeks, and after the patch comes off and the eye is fine, you need to tell his mom, "Hey Mom, what I want you to do is put a patch on the other eye." She will doubtless say, "But that's not the eye that was hurt." And you'll say, "I know, but I have to reverse patch to rebalance the eyes." That's counterintuitive.
迈克尔·基尔加德：一个孩子的眼睛被严重擦伤，他已经三岁了，他的眼睛上贴了眼罩三个星期，眼罩脱落后眼睛就没事了，你需要告诉他的妈妈，“嘿妈妈，我想让你做的是在另一只眼睛上贴上眼罩。”她无疑会说：“但受伤的不是那只眼睛。”你会说，“我知道，但我必须扭转眼罩来重新平衡眼睛。”这是违反直觉的。
Michael Kilgard: These guys did experiments in cats and monkeys, figured out what it was, and they now saved untold number of people's vision, at least in one of their eyes.
迈克尔·基尔加德：这些人在猫和猴子身上做了实验，弄清楚了它是什么，现在他们挽救了无数人的视力，至少是他们一只眼睛的视力。
But it was counterintuitive to do that.
但这样做是违反直觉的。
Now, we don't reverse patch anymore.
现在，我们不再进行反向补丁。
We give some drops.
我们给一些滴。
The eyedrops make it a little bit blurry.
眼药水让它有点模糊。
You don't have to block the eye entirely.
您不必完全挡住眼睛。
You could just do a drop that slightly blurs the eye by opening the pupil up, and now the eye that was sort of behind catches up.
你可以通过打开瞳孔来稍微模糊眼睛，现在后面的眼睛就会赶上。
Michael Kilgard: That is super practical, super cost-effective.
Michael Kilgard：那就超级实用，超级划算。
Atropine costs pennies, it's super safe, it's just an eye drop.
阿托品花费几分钱，超级安全，只是一个眼药水而已。
Just full disclosure, I had my own amblyopia experience as a kid, and when I was a very young person, I sat and tried popsicle sticks.
坦白说，我小时候也有过弱视的经历，当我很小的时候，我就坐下来尝试过冰棒棒。
I had lazy eyes for business, and then that ended up causing me double vision and trouble reading when I was a very young child.
我对生意有惰性，这最终导致我在很小的时候就出现了复视和阅读困难。
Andrew Huberman: Your eyes are well-aligned now.
Andrew Huberman：你的眼睛现在已经对齐了。
Michael Kilgard: My eyes are now well-aligned.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我的眼睛现在已经对齐了。
Andrew Huberman: I'm sitting across from you, so I know.
Andrew Huberman：我坐在你对面，所以我知道。
Michael Kilgard: It was many, many ophthalmologists, ophthalmology department's point of view.
Michael Kilgard：这是很多很多眼科医生、眼科部门的观点。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Kilgard: There was a...
迈克尔·基尔加德：有一个……
This is a little bit telling too much about me, but it's mostly about my mother.
这有点太多关于我的事情了，但主要是关于我的母亲。
It was originally believed that only adults would go through this much therapy.
最初人们认为只有成年人才会经历这么多的治疗。
There's actually a paper written, I'm told; on me as someone who would go through this therapy and completely resolve the symptoms.
有人告诉我，实际上已经写了一篇论文；我作为一个愿意接受这种治疗并完全解决症状的人。
It just takes a lot of time, following popsicle sticks.
只是需要花很多时间，跟着冰棍棒。
I had little lenses at, I don't know, I guess I was six years old, put little lenses in that would make it harder.
我戴着小镜片，我不知道，我猜我当时六岁，戴上小镜片会让事情变得更困难。
It was like eye building for the eye.
这就像以眼还眼。
The doctor told me, "You don't have to do all this.
医生告诉我：“你不必做这一切。
We can just take your eye out, and we'll stretch one muscle, and we'll strengthen another one, and we'll pop it back in." And I was six, I went, "I don't think so."
我们可以把你的眼睛挖出来，我们会伸展一块肌肉，我们会加强另一块肌肉，然后我们会把它放回去。”当时我六岁，我说，“我不这么认为。”
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, that sounds pretty scary.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，这听起来很可怕。
Michael Kilgard: "I'll do this one."
迈克尔·基尔加德：“我会做这个。”
Andrew Huberman: How's your binocular vision now?
安德鲁·休伯曼：你的双眼视力现在怎么样？
Michael Kilgard: Totally fine.
迈克尔·基尔加德：完全没问题。
Totally fine.
完全没问题。
Andrew Huberman: You were able to play sports requiring depth perception?
Andrew Huberman：你能够参加需要深度感知的运动吗？
Michael Kilgard: Still within the critical period; still within the critical period early enough because of those experiments.
Michael Kilgard：仍处于关键期；由于这些实验，仍然处于足够早的关键时期。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Kilgard: Those handful of animals made the ultimate sacrifice so that we now know how to treat things.
迈克尔·基尔加德：那些少数动物做出了最终的牺牲，所以我们现在知道如何对待事物。
Michael Kilgard: So, now, getting back to these counterintuitive ideas, how are you going to intervene?
迈克尔·基尔加德：那么，现在回到这些违反直觉的想法，你将如何干预？
When you've got a kid with Down syndrome, or someone with Alzheimer's, and they're slipping into dementia, what are you supposed to do?
当你有一个患有唐氏综合症的孩子，或者患有阿尔茨海默氏症的人，并且他们正在陷入痴呆症时，你应该做什么？
We don't know.
我们不知道。
Michael Kilgard: If psilocybin is the answer, let's use it.
迈克尔·基尔加德：如果裸盖菇素是答案，我们就使用它。
It's certainly counterintuitive.
这当然是违反直觉的。
But it may or may not be.
但可能是也可能不是。
We got to run the experiments and find out.
我们必须进行实验并找出答案。
So, for fluoxetine, it looked really promising.
因此，对于氟西汀来说，它看起来确实很有前途。
There was a big initiative on stem cells.
有一项关于干细胞的重大举措。
Stem cells looked incredibly promising.
干细胞看起来非常有前途。
Andrew Huberman: For stroke.
安德鲁·休伯曼：针对中风。
Michael Kilgard: For stroke.
迈克尔·基尔加德：针对中风。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Michael Kilgard: That's right.
迈克尔·基尔加德：没错。
That's a 1,300-person set.
这是一个 1,300 人的集合。
It's a meta-analysis.
这是一项荟萃分析。
It just didn't help or hurt.
它只是没有帮助或伤害。
It just didn't do anything.
它只是没有做任何事情。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Kilgard: We wanted it to work.
Michael Kilgard：我们希望它能发挥作用。
I wanted it to work.
我想让它发挥作用。
I'm a molecular biologist.
我是一名分子生物学家。
I want the cells to go in there and do the good stuff, release the good juices.
我希望细胞能够进入那里，做有益的事情，释放有益的汁液。
But it's a practical matter.
但这是一个实际问题。
And that's what I love about working with patients is; they're just very practical.
这就是我喜欢与患者一起工作的原因；它们非常实用。
They don't have a dog in the race.
他们没有狗参加比赛。
Michael Kilgard: This, that, or the other thing, what is the pro and con?
迈克尔·基尔加德：这个、那个或其他的东西，优点和缺点是什么？
And we're now getting to the point where we can, partly because of your work, have people really understand how they work.
我们现在已经达到了这样的程度：我们可以（部分归功于您的工作）让人们真正了解他们是如何工作的。
Don't take an antidepressant because it's an antidepressant.
不要服用抗抑郁药，因为它是抗抑郁药。
That's just what we called it.
我们就是这么称呼它的。
It doesn't mean that that's what it evolved for or something like that.
这并不意味着这就是它进化的目的或类似的东西。
That's a label.
那是一个标签。
Michael Kilgard: You can say anti-PTSD, and say this must be anti-PTSD, because it's called anti-PTSD.
迈克尔·基尔加德：你可以说反PTSD，并且说这一定是反PTSD，因为它被称为反PTSD。
We have to be careful about these labels.
我们必须小心这些标签。
Antidepressants typically are selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, but some, selective norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors.
抗抑郁药通常是选择性血清素再摄取抑制剂，但也有一些是选择性去甲肾上腺素再摄取抑制剂。
Some are both.
有些两者都是。
Some have kind of complex off-target effects.
有些具有复杂的脱靶效应。
But they're all lumped because of what they do.
但他们都因为自己的所作所为而被归为一类。
And as you said, whether it's in pathogens or psychedelics, these are given names because of the things we see.
正如你所说，无论是病原体还是致幻剂，它们都是因为我们看到的东西而被命名的。
And the things we see are real.
而我们看到的东西都是真实的。
People see them, and this is the effect that they have on mood, on whatever.
人们看到它们，这就是它们对情绪或其他事物的影响。
They all happen.
它们都会发生。
Michael Kilgard: The question is a practical one.
迈克尔·基尔加德：这是一个实际问题。
What will the long-term outcome be?
长期结果会是什么？
And we often don't know that.
而我们常常不知道这一点。
For many, many years, we think things that are very valuable initially turn out not to be so valuable.
很多很多年来，我们认为最初非常有价值的东西其实并不那么有价值。
I always think of the Pope with a flask of God knows what, but I think it was cocaine, or Sigmund Freud, or whatever else, taking these substances just fully convinced, 'I found the right thing.'
我总是想起教皇拿着一瓶天知道是什么的东西，但我认为那是可卡因，或者西格蒙德·弗洛伊德，或者其他什么，服用这些物质完全相信，“我找到了正确的东西。”
Andrew Huberman: Wait, the Pope took cocaine?
安德鲁·休伯曼：等等，教皇吸食了可卡因？
Michael Kilgard: It is my understanding.
迈克尔·基尔加德：这是我的理解。
Again, this is one of the things I learned in Catholic school, but, yeah, there were many people who thought many of these elixirs were really, really powerful agents that were going to be useful.
再说一次，这是我在天主教学校学到的东西之一，但是，是的，有很多人认为这些长生不老药中的许多是非常非常强大的药剂，将会很有用。
And later, people just said, "It's not working for me." Most people learn, yeah, you can drink your way out of a bad relationship, but it's not really going to solve the problem.
后来，人们只是说：“这对我不起作用。”大多数人都知道，是的，你可以通过喝酒来摆脱糟糕的关系，但这并不能真正解决问题。
I got to do other real work.
我必须做其他真正的工作。
So, there's a lot of short-term solutions, is my point.
所以，我的观点是，有很多短期解决方案。
And the question now is, how is it going to work in long term?
现在的问题是，从长远来看，它将如何发挥作用？
Michael Kilgard: For getting through a crisis where someone is immediately suicidal, we got to get them through that point, and we will do whatever it takes to get them through that point.
迈克尔·基尔加德：为了度过一个有人立即有自杀倾向的危机，我们必须帮助他们度过那个阶段，我们将尽一切努力让他们度过那个阶段。
Now we're in the intermediate phase.
现在我们正处于中间阶段。
But a year later, how are we doing?
但一年后，我们的表现如何？
It remains to be seen.
这还有待观察。
We're not yet years post-trying these agents.
我们在尝试这些药物后还没有几年。
We're only now trying them because they're listed as Schedule I.
我们现在才尝试它们，因为它们被列为附表 I。
They cannot possibly be used, because we tried them in the '50s.
它们不可能被使用，因为我们在 50 年代就尝试过它们。
Andrew Huberman: You mean the psychedelics.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你指的是致幻剂。
Michael Kilgard: The psychedelics.
迈克尔·基尔加德：迷幻剂。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I mean, I'm encouraged by the results of the trials on psychedelics and empathogens, like psilocybin and MDMA, in particular.
Andrew Huberman：是的，我的意思是，我对致幻剂和移情剂（尤其是裸盖菇素和 MDMA）的试验结果感到鼓舞。
I'm not just being politically correct here.
我在这里不仅仅是政治正确。
I think people need to be very aware that the therapeutic support going in, the therapeutic support during, and the therapeutic support afterwards, especially for this reflection piece, what's typically called integration in the psychedelic journey space, is vital.
我认为人们需要非常清楚，开始时的治疗支持、期间的治疗支持以及之后的治疗支持，特别是对于这个反思作品，通常被称为迷幻旅程空间中的整合，是至关重要的。
Michael Kilgard: Reflection.
迈克尔·基尔加德：反思。
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: And there are a few or more examples of very high-functioning people who have crashed their mind, and their life, with psychedelics, using them.
安德鲁·休伯曼：有一些或更多的例子表明，功能非常高的人因使用致幻剂而崩溃了他们的思想和生活。
I don't know how they were using them, but, you know, in an unguarded way.
我不知道他们是如何使用它们的，但是，你知道，以一种毫无防备的方式。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: You know, I think they hold great promise, because of their ability to augment neuromodulators.
Andrew Huberman：你知道，我认为它们前景广阔，因为它们能够增强神经调节剂。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Again, the question about what happens in the journey is a separate matter, and I'm not qualified to answer that anyway, but I just find it amazing that these four chemicals, serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, and acetylcholine, alone, or in combination, are not the only path to plasticity, but they are necessary.
安德鲁·休伯曼：再说一次，关于旅程中发生的事情的问题是一个单独的问题，无论如何我都没有资格回答这个问题，但我只是发现令人惊奇的是，这四种化学物质，血清素，多巴胺，去甲肾上腺素和乙酰胆碱，单独或组合，并不是通向可塑性的唯一途径，但它们是必要的。
They're not sufficient, but they're necessary.
它们还不够，但却是必要的。
And you know, if a small little, pinky nail-sized stimulator...
你知道，如果有一个小指指甲大小的刺激器……
I realize I'm holding up something that looks a little bit larger, like the size of a...
我意识到我拿着的东西看起来有点大，就像......
It reminds me of that like lip balm stuff there that you put on when you go skiing, like that Carmex stuff.
它让我想起了你去滑雪时涂的润唇膏之类的东西，就像 Carmex 的东西。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah, Carmex.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的，Carmex。
Andrew Huberman: It's about that big.
Andrew Huberman：大约有那么大。
But the chip itself is the size of my pinky nail.
但芯片本身有我小指指甲那么大。
And if that can be implanted, and it can stimulate my vagus nerve in a way that the brain thinks I'm having a heart attack...
如果它可以被植入，它可以刺激我的迷走神经，让大脑认为我心脏病发作......
I think we might scare people with that discussion.
我认为我们的讨论可能会吓到人们。
But as you pointed out, you're not aware of that, right?
但正如您所指出的，您没有意识到这一点，对吗？
Michael Kilgard: Right.
迈克尔·基尔加德：对。
Andrew Huberman: Basically, it's taking advantage of a pathway that signals something's going on in the body, but you're not inducing a heart attack, obviously, and you're getting a burst of neuromodulator release.
Andrew Huberman：基本上，它利用了一条发出体内正在发生的信号的信号通路，但显然，你并没有诱发心脏病发作，而且你正在释放大量的神经调节剂。
And then there's a window that opens where you can learn stuff better, whether or not it's new movement, new knowledge.
然后会打开一个窗口，您可以在其中更好地学习东西，无论它是否是新运动、新知识。
How do I...
我该如何...
I want to be a subject in an experiment where, obviously, I don't have a stroke.
我想成为实验对象，显然我没有中风。
Well, maybe it's not obvious I don't have a stroke, but I don't want a stroke.
好吧，也许我没有中风并不明显，但我不想中风。
But I would love to be in an experiment where you're using this for more rapid learning.
但我很乐意参与一个实验，用它来实现更快速的学习。
Michael Kilgard: Mm-hmm, mm hmm.
迈克尔·基尔加德：嗯嗯，嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Do you have any intention of doing those kinds of studies?
Andrew Huberman：您有兴趣进行此类研究吗？
Michael Kilgard: We have done a bunch of those experiments.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我们已经做了很多这样的实验。
Much of this work is funded by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, DARPA, and they're looking for ways to enhance learning.
这项工作的大部分由国防高级研究计划局 (DARPA) 资助，他们正在寻找加强学习的方法。
It was called the TNT program.
它被称为 TNT 计划。
They like it to sound exciting.
他们喜欢听起来令人兴奋。
It was targeted neuroplasticity training.
这是有针对性的神经可塑性训练。
And so, under some circumstances you can improve learning, but under the majority of conditions, you're already so smart.
因此，在某些情况下你可以提高学习能力，但在大多数情况下，你已经很聪明了。
The rats we studied are already so smart, they just didn't help, didn't help or hurt.
我们研究的老鼠已经很聪明了，它们只是没有帮助，没有帮助或伤害。
Andrew Huberman: Doesn't it help you focus more?
Andrew Huberman：这不会帮助你更加集中注意力吗？
Michael Kilgard: Didn't help focus more.
迈克尔·基尔加德：没有帮助我们更加集中注意力。
Didn't make it worse, didn't make it better.
没有让情况变得更糟，也没有让情况变得更好。
Now, you can always wonder, maybe we didn't do the conditions right.
现在，你总是会想，也许我们没有满足正确的条件。
We did hundreds and hundreds of experiments.
我们做了成百上千次的实验。
So, it's possible, though I don't know this for sure, it's possible; this is one of the few technologies that helps those who are least capable among us, and does not help those who are most capable.
所以，这是可能的，虽然我不确定，但这是可能的；这是为数不多的能够帮助我们当中能力最弱的人而不帮助能力最强的人的技术之一。
And the idea is, the way we're activating this is still pretty crude.
我们的想法是，我们激活它的方式仍然相当粗糙。
Like I'm blasting this whole thing.
就像我要毁掉这整件事一样。
This used to be called the reticular activating system, this arousal network that releases all these neurotransmitters, and it was viewed as one system back in the day.
这曾经被称为网状激活系统，这种释放所有这些神经递质的唤醒网络，在当时被视为一个系统。
Michael Kilgard: We later found molecular biology, and divided it into these different neurotransmitters.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我们后来发现了分子生物学，并将其分为这些不同的神经递质。
But they all kind of get activated a lot.
但它们都被激活了很多。
They're highly covariant when they fire in relation to these arousing signals.
当它们与这些唤醒信号相关时，它们会高度协变。
But the way we're doing it's still pretty crude, right?
但我们这样做的方式仍然很粗糙，对吧？
I'm not activating individual fibers.
我没有激活单个纤维。
I'm activating the whole kit and caboodle.
我正在激活整个工具包和一堆东西。
Andrew Huberman: Where does it get inserted?
Andrew Huberman：它插入哪里？
Michael Kilgard: The left vagus nerve on the cervical branch, just right here.
迈克尔·基尔加德：颈支上的左迷走神经，就在这里。
You find a little crease in your skin, open that up, put it in, close it up.
你发现你的皮肤上有一个小折痕，把它打开，放进去，然后合上。
If you feel your jugular, your carotid artery, it's running right there.
如果你感觉到你的颈静脉，你的颈动脉，它就在那里运行。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: How long from when I walk into the clinic to when I walk out with the stimulator?
Andrew Huberman：从我走进诊所到带着刺激器走出诊所需要多长时间？
And again, no wires, right?
再说一次，没有电线，对吧？
It's wireless.
它是无线的。
How long is that procedure?
那个程序要多长时间？
Michael Kilgard: You're anesthetized for 35 minutes.
Michael Kilgard：你会被麻醉 35 分钟。
So, from open to close, that part of it is half an hour.
所以，从开门到关门，这段时间就是半个小时。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
Michael Kilgard: Typically people, you know how it is.
迈克尔·基尔加德：通常情况下，你知道这是怎么回事。
You got to get in there.
你必须进入那里。
Andrew Huberman: So, shorter than a haircut.
Andrew Huberman：所以，比理发还短。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Is the actual, you know, part where you're opening...
你知道，你要打开的部分是实际的吗？
Andrew Huberman: I have short hair, but, yeah, shorter than a haircut.
Andrew Huberman：我有一头短发，但是，是的，比理发还短。
Michael Kilgard: Right.
迈克尔·基尔加德：对。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
Michael Kilgard: But the actual showing up, and getting checked in and checked out, it does take, you know, two hours or whatever it is.
迈克尔·基尔加德：但实际出现、登记入住和退房，确实需要两个小时或其他时间。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
Michael Kilgard: I don't actually know.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我实际上不知道。
That's a good question.
这是个好问题。
I should look into it.
我应该调查一下。
Andrew Huberman: But you do it once.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但你只做一次。
Michael Kilgard: You do it once, and you're done.
迈克尔·基尔加德：你做一次，就完成了。
And when it's off, it's off.
当它关闭时，它就关闭了。
Like the medications are maybe lingering in your body, having effects.
就像药物可能会残留在您的体内并产生影响一样。
You're talking about specificity, which I want to go back to.
你正在谈论特异性，我想回到这个话题。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Kilgard: The specificity, it doesn't activate any other nerves than the one that it's on.
迈克尔·基尔加德（Michael Kilgard）：特殊性，它不会激活除了它所在的神经之外的任何其他神经。
It's a tiny bit of current.
这是一点点电流。
Andrew Huberman: And how do I activate it?
Andrew Huberman：我该如何激活它？
Michael Kilgard: So, we put a band around your neck, looks like Bose headphones or, you know, Beats headphones around it, that has got a coil.
Michael Kilgard：所以，我们在你的脖子上戴了一条带子，看起来像 Bose 耳机，或者你知道，Beats 耳机，它有一个线圈。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Kilgard: There's a coil in that device.
迈克尔·基尔加德：那个装置里有一个线圈。
The two coils are aligned, just like your phone.
两个线圈对齐，就像您的手机一样。
When you put your phone on it, you don't plug it in.
当您将手机放在上面时，您无需将其插入。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Kilgard: The coils align.
迈克尔·基尔加德：线圈对齐。
That now turns it on, because the device has no battery.
现在它就打开了，因为该设备没有电池。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Kilgard: The next generation, the experimental device, the device that's FDA approved does have a battery, and that's how it's powered.
Michael Kilgard：下一代实验设备，FDA 批准的设备确实有电池，这就是它的供电方式。
Our new device is much smaller, because we're giving it the power, and we're also signaling now.
我们的新设备要小得多，因为我们正在给它供电，而且我们现在也在发出信号。
The way we do that is we measure the forces someone's making with their fingers or their hand.
我们这样做的方法是测量某人用手指或手施加的力。
We'll make a handle, and we'll measure the forces.
我们将制作一个手柄，然后测量力。
Every person's different.
每个人都是不同的。
You got to meet them where they are.
你必须在他们所在的地方见到他们。
Every educator knows this.
每个教育者都知道这一点。
Where is this kid?
这孩子在哪儿？
Let's get them into their best zone.
让我们让他们进入最佳状态。
Michael Kilgard: So, if we're taking a person, this is all they can turn, it's all the rotation they've got of their wrist, five degrees, that's fine.
迈克尔·基尔加德：所以，如果我们要带一个人，这就是他们所能转动的，这是他们手腕的所有旋转，五度，这很好。
I can easily measure five degrees.
我可以轻松测量五度。
You can do 90 degrees, 100 degrees, right?
你可以做90度、100度，对吗？
But they can only do five.
但他们只能做五个。
When they're doing five, sometimes they do six just for whatever reason.
当他们做五次时，有时他们会因为某种原因而做六次。
I don't know why.
我不知道为什么。
That's when I hit the stimulator.
就在那时我按下了刺激器。
Andrew Huberman: Who hits the stimulator?
安德鲁·休伯曼：谁按下了刺激器？
Michael Kilgard: The computer does it itself.
迈克尔·基尔加德：计算机自己做。
It's closed loop.
这是闭环的。
Just like your air conditioning unit.
就像您的空调装置一样。
When the temperature goes up, it automatically turns it on.
当温度升高时，它会自动打开。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: So, they can be at home doing this.
Andrew Huberman：所以，他们可以在家里做这件事。
They don't need to be walking around with a researcher following them all the time.
他们不需要一直有研究人员跟着他们走来走去。
Michael Kilgard: That's right.
迈克尔·基尔加德：没错。
The nature paper was done in a clinic supervised, but really, the therapy is being delivered by the computer measuring their performance, tracking each individual person, looking back for the last few minutes of their activities, seeing what they can produce, and looking to see what's in their top 10%.
自然论文是在诊所监督下完成的，但实际上，治疗是由计算机提供的，测量他们的表现，跟踪每个人，回顾他们最后几分钟的活动，看看他们能产生什么，并看看他们的前 10% 中有什么。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: What about tinnitus?
安德鲁·休伯曼：耳鸣怎么办？
By the way, is that the way it's pronounced, or is it tinnitus?
顺便问一下，是这个发音还是耳鸣？
Michael Kilgard: Most people say tinnitus.
迈克尔·基尔加德：大多数人说是耳鸣。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
Michael Kilgard: Emphasizing the 'itis,' the inflammatory part of it.
迈克尔·基尔加德：强调“炎”，即其中的炎症部分。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Kilgard: There's actually nothing inflamed.
迈克尔·基尔加德：实际上没有什么发炎的。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
Michael Kilgard: I like tinnitus, but it's most often called tinnitus.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我喜欢耳鸣，但它最常被称为耳鸣。
Andrew Huberman: Tinnitus.
安德鲁·休伯曼：耳鸣。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
Andrew Huberman: I get so many questions about tinnitus.
Andrew Huberman：我收到了很多关于耳鸣的问题。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Clearly people suffer from it when they have it.
Andrew Huberman：显然，人们在患有这种疾病时就会遭受痛苦。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And I've seen a few papers out there that maybe, low dose melatonin before sleep can help a little bit with certain forms of tinnitus.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我看过一些论文，也许睡前服用低剂量的褪黑激素可以对某些形式的耳鸣有所帮助。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Maybe, it's just the consequence of improved sleep, and this kind of thing.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：也许，这只是改善睡眠之类的结果。
In anticipation of today's discussion, I put out the call for questions about brain stimulation.
为了迎接今天的讨论，我呼吁大家提出有关大脑刺激的问题。
Tons of questions about tinnitus.
关于耳鸣的问题有很多。
Andrew Huberman: When you treat tinnitus using this little stimulator, how successful is it, and also how common is tinnitus, and how do you do those experiments?
Andrew Huberman：当你使用这个小刺激器治疗耳鸣时，它有多成功，耳鸣有多常见，你是如何进行这些实验的？
So, how common is it?
那么，这种情况有多常见？
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Because it seems very common, based on the number of questions.
Andrew Huberman：因为从问题的数量来看，这似乎很常见。
How successful is your treatment?
您的治疗有多成功？
And then what does the experimental manipulation look like?
那么实验操作是什么样的呢？
Michael Kilgard: That entails, yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的，这需要。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
So, how common is it?
那么，这种情况有多常见？
Very common.
很常见。
I mean, hearing loss is common.
我的意思是，听力损失很常见。
It's, of course, highly correlated with growing old, which is a good thing.
当然，它与变老高度相关，这是一件好事。
Andrew Huberman: Wait, are those the same thing?
Andrew Huberman：等等，这些是同一件事吗？
Michael Kilgard: No, they're not the same thing.
迈克尔·基尔加德：不，它们不是同一件事。
A lot of things accumulate to cause damage to the hair cells in your ear.
许多物质的积累会对耳朵中的毛细胞造成损害。
Taking a lot of antibiotics, having a viral infection, traumatic insults, all those things.
服用大量抗生素、病毒感染、创伤性侮辱等等。
But the number one is just growing old.
但第一名刚刚变老。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Kilgard: So, if you grow old enough, things start falling apart.
迈克尔·基尔加德：所以，如果你足够老，事情就会开始崩溃。
And one of the things that falls apart are these hair cells.
崩溃的因素之一就是这些毛细胞。
These are incredibly precise.
这些都非常精确。
The vibration these things are doing are the width of one atom.
这些东西所做的振动只有一个原子的宽度。
Like, that's how tiny, the smallest vibration you can detect, the hair cell's only moving back and forth by an atom.
就像，这就是你能检测到的最小振动，毛细胞仅以一个原子的速度来回移动。
I mean, it's incredibly precise.
我的意思是，它非常精确。
Michael Kilgard: And so, they get damaged.
迈克尔·基尔加德：因此，它们受到了损坏。
They're just super sensitive.
他们只是超级敏感。
When they get damaged, it's typically the high frequencies that get damaged, whether you're going to rock concerts, or shooting a gun, or playing your horn loud.
当它们受损时，通常是高频受损，无论您是去听摇滚音乐会、开枪还是大声吹喇叭。
It's the high frequencies, where the things vibrate the fastest, that get most injured.
高频是物体振动最快的地方，受伤最严重。
And people start noticing they can't hear as well in a crowded restaurant, or whatever else.
人们开始注意到，在拥挤的餐厅或其他地方，他们的听力不太好。
Michael Kilgard: You go and get an audiogram with an audiologist and they'll tell you, "Yes, above eight kilohertz, or above four kilohertz, you now need 20 times more sound pressure to hear it." Okay, you can still hear, just not as good.
Michael Kilgard：你去找听力学家做听力图，他们会告诉你，“是的，超过 8 kHz，或者超过 4 kHz，你现在需要 20 倍的声压才能听到。”好吧，你还是能听到，只是没那么好。
The thing is, the brain is plastic, as we've been saying is such a good thing.
问题是，大脑是可塑的，正如我们一直所说的，这是一件好事。
But the brain being plastic means if nobody high frequency ever happens, and low frequency things keep happening, your brain is going to shift from the high frequencies to the mid frequencies.
但大脑是可塑的，这意味着如果没有高频发生，而低频事情不断发生，你的大脑就会从高频转向中频。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Kilgard: And you're now going to end up with too many neurons in the mid frequencies.
迈克尔·基尔加德：现在你最终会在中频产生太多的神经元。
Right at the edge of where you can hear, you get too many neurons.
在你能听到的地方的边缘，你有太多的神经元。
The same thing happens after an amputation.
截肢后也会发生同样的情况。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Kilgard: So, you end up with too many neurons responding to the stump, because the hand's not there anymore.
迈克尔·基尔加德：所以，最终会有太多的神经元对残肢做出反应，因为手已经不在那里了。
So, if the hand's not there anymore, I'm not going to keep doing that.
所以，如果那只手不再存在，我就不会继续这样做。
The neurons find something else to do, just like the smart little neurons that they are.
神经元会找到其他事情去做，就像它们本身聪明的小神经元一样。
The problem is, if you exceed some threshold, if I take this microphone and put it next to a speaker, you'll get feedback.
问题是，如果你超过某个阈值，如果我把这个麦克风放在扬声器旁边，你就会得到反馈。
Because the number one input to neurons in the cortex are other neurons in the cortex, not the outside world, neurons in the brain mostly talk to themselves, not the world.
因为皮层神经元的第一输入是皮层中的其他神经元，而不是外部世界，所以大脑中的神经元大多与自己对话，而不是与世界对话。
There's very few neurons in the eye.
眼睛里的神经元很少。
Michael Kilgard: You know this, but most people are surprised.
迈克尔·基尔加德：你知道这一点，但大多数人都感到惊讶。
You don't have megapixels of resolution.
你没有百万像素的分辨率。
You got kind of a smallish number, but you're moving around and you're using and sampling.
你的数量有点少，但你正在四处走动，你正在使用和采样。
Here we have a situation, where the way the brain is processing is over-focused, and you start to get oscillations.
这里我们遇到一种情况，大脑的处理方式过度集中，你开始出现振荡。
The neurons start to fire together, they start to wire together.
神经元开始一起放电，它们开始连接在一起。
Then you start to pay attention to it.
然后你就开始关注它。
Most of us have heard it.
我们大多数人都听说过。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Kilgard: My advice for everyone is, try to ignore it.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我对每个人的建议是，尽量忽略它。
Because when you're paying attention to it, you're listening to it, you're fretting about it, you're worrying about it.
因为当你关注它时，你在听它，你在为它烦恼，你在为它担心。
Andrew Huberman: The tinnitus.
安德鲁·休伯曼：耳鸣。
Michael Kilgard: You're releasing neurotransmitters.
迈克尔·基尔加德：你正在释放神经递质。
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: I see.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我明白了。
So, people self-amplify their own tinnitus by paying attention to it.
因此，人们通过关注耳鸣来自我放大自己的耳鸣。
Michael Kilgard: That's right.
迈克尔·基尔加德：没错。
And the more anxious they are about it, because they think, "I'm dying.
他们越担心，因为他们想：“我快要死了。
I need to go to the doctor." Which is smart.
我需要去看医生。”这很聪明。
You should look out for new symptoms.
您应该留意新的症状。
Totally true.
完全正确。
Andrew Huberman: They think they're dying?
安德鲁·胡伯曼：他们认为自己快死了？
Michael Kilgard: They think they've got a brain tumor.
迈克尔·基尔加德：他们认为自己患有脑瘤。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Kilgard: And people are relieved, after four months of worrying about it, to realize, get a brain scan, you don't have a brain tumor.
迈克尔·基尔加德：经过四个月的担心之后，人们意识到，进行脑部扫描，你没有脑肿瘤，这让人们松了一口气。
Some people do, but that's pretty rare.
有些人这样做，但这种情况非常罕见。
The vast majority don't.
绝大多数人没有。
But that worrying is the food to this particular cancer.
但这种担忧正是这种特殊癌症的根源。
Andrew Huberman: Oh, wow.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哦，哇。
Michael Kilgard: That worrying, in the same way that avoiding going back to the site of an assault, is the thing that produces PTSD.
迈克尔·基尔加德：这种担忧，就像避免回到袭击现场一样，是产生创伤后应激障碍的原因。
Avoiding peanuts can create a severe allergy, a dangerous allergy to peanuts.
避免花生会引起严重过敏，这是对花生的危险过敏。
We need the exposure.
我们需要曝光。
We need the diversity.
我们需要多样性。
We need that context.
我们需要这样的背景。
That information is useful to us.
这些信息对我们有用。
When we shield ourselves, as we did from peanuts, many people got peanut allergies.
当我们保护自己时，就像我们对花生所做的那样，许多人都会对花生过敏。
Now that we've gone back to exposing children, you don't have that problem nearly as bad.
现在我们又回到了暴露儿童的问题上，这个问题就不再那么严重了。
I work with Boy Scouts, and so we have a big giant peanut allergy warning thing.
我与童子军一起工作，所以我们有一个巨大的花生过敏警告。
Andrew Huberman: Right, right, right.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：对，对，对。
Michael Kilgard: We don't want someone...
迈克尔·基尔加德：我们不想要某人……
Andrew Huberman: Oh, yeah, every time you board a plane now they tell you, "We got one person on here that has peanut allergies."
安德鲁·休伯曼：哦，是的，现在每次你登机时，他们都会告诉你，“我们这里有一个人对花生过敏。”
Michael Kilgard: Right.
迈克尔·基尔加德：对。
Andrew Huberman: "Don't eat anything containing peanuts." Earlier, however; you said that a major reason that PTSD persists is because people avoid reflection.
安德鲁·休伯曼：“不要吃任何含有花生的东西。”然而早些时候；你说创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）持续存在的一个主要原因是人们回避反思。
Here we're saying you want to avoid thinking about the ringing in your ears if you have tinnitus.
在这里，我们想说的是，如果您有耳鸣，请避免考虑耳鸣。
Michael Kilgard: That's right.
迈克尔·基尔加德：没错。
Andrew Huberman: Because that will amplify the circuits that underlie tinnitus.
安德鲁·休伯曼：因为这会放大耳鸣的电路。
In some cases, you need to go into the event and work with somebody to, you know, parse the event and uncouple the emotional load, such as treatment for PTSD.
在某些情况下，您需要深入事件并与某人合作，分析事件并消除情感负担，例如治疗创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）。
In other cases, focusing on the problem more and more becomes an issue.
在其他情况下，越来越关注问题就成为一个问题。
I guess there's probably also cases of PTSD where people are preoccupied by it.
我想也可能存在创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）的情况，人们对此很关注。
You know, it's running like a script in the background.
你知道，它像脚本一样在后台运行。
Michael Kilgard: That's right.
迈克尔·基尔加德：没错。
Or it just pops up randomly.
或者它只是随机弹出。
So for PTSD, cognitive behavioral therapists do five different things, because people say, "You're going to expose me to this, I'm going to get better?
因此，对于创伤后应激障碍（PTSD），认知行为治疗师做了五种不同的事情，因为人们会说，“你让我接触这个，我会好起来吗？
It doesn't make any sense.
这没有任何意义。
I'm already exposed to it.
我已经接触过它了。
I think about it all the time." But they're not thinking about it enough.
我一直在想这个问题。”但他们考虑得还不够。
They're thinking about it where they're losing control.
他们正在失去控制的地方思考这个问题。
So, control, as you know, from some classic neuroscience experiments, is really important.
所以，正如你所知，从一些经典的神经科学实验来看，控制非常重要。
Getting shocked is not bad for you.
感到震惊对你来说并不是坏事。
It's getting shocked in an uncontrollable way, where you're not in charge of it.
它会以一种无法控制的方式受到震惊，而你却无法控制它。
If you can influence it, have some agency over it, then I can make a story about it.
如果你能影响它，有一些代理权，那么我就可以写一个关于它的故事。
Michael Kilgard: When I can reflect on it, I know, hey, bad things happen, but I have a role to play in it.
迈克尔·基尔加德：当我能够反思时，我知道，嘿，糟糕的事情发生了，但我可以在其中发挥作用。
When I'm living in an abusive home and just random stuff happens, there's no agency, there's no control.
当我生活在一个充满虐待的家庭里，随机发生的事情时，没有代理，没有控制。
It's just random.
这只是随机的。
That is what is most damaging to people, their neurons, and their psyches.
这对人、他们的神经元和他们的心理伤害最大。
So, here we're having a similar situation, whether it's post-traumatic stress disorder, which is not tinnitus, right?
那么，我们这里有类似的情况，是否是创伤后应激障碍，这不是耳鸣，对吗？
They're totally different things, but there's a similarity, there's a commonality to them that your thing that you think is making you better, is making you worse.
它们是完全不同的东西，但有一个相似之处，有一个共同点：你认为会让你变得更好的事情，却让你变得更糟。
Michael Kilgard: And there are many ways.
迈克尔·基尔加德：方法有很多。
We call this the 'prevent defense' in football.
我们称之为足球中的“预防性防守”。
I'm from Texas, so we play a lot of that.
我来自德克萨斯州，所以我们经常玩这种游戏。
We're ahead of the game, let's change everything.
我们处于领先地位，让我们改变一切。
Wait a minute, bad idea.
等一下，坏主意。
Let's just keep playing the game that was working.
让我们继续玩那个有效的游戏吧。
Oftentimes teams will lose, because they'll change their strategy.
团队常常会失败，因为他们会改变策略。
Here, if you've got pain in your finger, we'll now switch to analogy to chronic pain, and I'll get back to your question about exactly how we're treating it, what the treatment is.
在这里，如果你的手指疼痛，我们现在将转向慢性疼痛的类比，我将回到你的问题，即我们到底如何治疗它，治疗方法是什么。
If your finger hurts, you want to do something about it.
如果你的手指受伤了，你就想做点什么。
Your mom taught you, find things, pay attention.
你妈妈教过你，寻找事物，集中注意力。
Doctors tell you, "Pay attention.
医生告诉你：“注意。
Let me know what the symptoms are." But sometimes that paying attention can become part of the cycle where you're feeding that.
让我知道症状是什么。”但有时这种注意力可能会成为你所喂养的循环的一部分。
Andrew Huberman: Got it.
安德鲁·休伯曼：明白了。
Michael Kilgard: And that is then this positive feedback loop where it gets worse and worse, and all the rest.
迈克尔·基尔加德：这就是这个积极的反馈循环，情况变得越来越糟，等等。
I'm not blaming people for paying attention to it.
我并不是责怪人们对此的关注。
It is damn near impossible to not pay attention to pain.
不关注疼痛几乎是不可能的。
It's damn near impossible not to pay attention to ringing sounds.
不去注意铃声几乎是不可能的。
They don't all sound like sound.
它们听起来并不都像声音。
One woman told me she heard the sounds of a bird chirping in a cave.
一位女士告诉我，她听到山洞里有鸟儿叽叽喳喳的声音。
That's just a very specific thing that her brain is producing the pattern of activity, and it's just super annoying.
这只是她的大脑正在产生的活动模式的一个非常具体的事情，这真是太烦人了。
Who wouldn't be?
谁不会呢？
Easy to say, "Oh, just ignore it." I understand how hard that is, because our attention goes to that.
很容易说：“哦，忽略它吧。”我理解这有多难，因为我们的注意力都集中在这一点上。
We need to make tools to help someone like that.
我们需要制造工具来帮助这样的人。
Some people can reach levels.
有的人可以达到这样的水平。
The commonality is like 10%, 20% of people are going to have tinnitus.
共性是10%、20%的人会出现耳鸣。
Almost everyone...
几乎每个人...
Andrew Huberman: 10% to 20%?
安德鲁·休伯曼：10% 到 20%？
That's a huge number of people.
这是一个巨大的数字。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah, chronic tinnitus.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的，慢性耳鸣。
It's a huge number.
这是一个巨大的数字。
It's one of the most common.
这是最常见的一种。
It's the number one...
这是排名第一的...
Andrew Huberman: And this is why I get so many questions about it.
Andrew Huberman：这就是为什么我收到这么多关于它的问题。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And they're worrying about it and focusing on it is exacerbating it.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：他们对此感到担忧，而专注于它只会加剧这种情况。
Michael Kilgard: It's the number one military disability.
迈克尔·基尔加德：这是头号军事障碍。
So, you get a 10% payment for the rest of your life.
因此，您将在余生中获得 10% 的付款。
So, it's a billion dollars per year that we pay for people with tinnitus.
因此，我们每年为耳鸣患者支付 10 亿美元。
You can't measure it objectively, just like chronic pain.
你无法客观地衡量它，就像慢性疼痛一样。
You can't see it.
你看不到它。
They don't want it, but you develop it if you're in a, you know, aircraft carrier launching planes, or you're blowing doors if you're a cop.
他们不想要它，但如果你在一艘发射飞机的航空母舰上，或者如果你是一名警察，你在敲门，你就会开发它。
Andrew Huberman: Playing headphones too loud.
Andrew Huberman：耳机播放声音太大。
Michael Kilgard: Playing headphones too loud.
迈克尔·基尔加德：耳机播放声音太大。
These things are really a problem.
这些事情确实是个问题。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Michael Kilgard: Those cells will get damaged.
迈克尔·基尔加德：这些细胞会受损。
The brain doesn't know.
大脑不知道。
If you're deaf in the natural world, you just die.
如果你在自然界中聋了，你就会死。
We didn't evolve to get used to loud sounds.
我们并没有进化到习惯大声的声音。
That didn't exist for thousands and thousands of years.
那已经不存在了数千年了。
That all came on with the Industrial Revolution.
这一切都是随着工业革命而来的。
You know, a thunder clap was like a loud sound.
要知道，一声雷鸣就像是一声巨响。
Nowadays, you can go to a concert and you would be at 120 decibels, 130 decibels for hours at a time.
现在，你去听一场音乐会，你会在 120 分贝、130 分贝的环境中连续几个小时。
Most people, interestingly, don't get tinnitus.
有趣的是，大多数人不会出现耳鸣。
We see the same thing in the rats.
我们在老鼠身上也看到了同样的情况。
Michael Kilgard: When we produce noise trauma, I can make everybody deaf, that's easy, but only half of them show signs of tinnitus.
迈克尔·基尔加德：当我们产生噪音创伤时，我可以让每个人都聋，这很容易，但只有一半的人表现出耳鸣的迹象。
So, the way the brain rewires itself depends upon the specifics of creating that positive feedback loop inside the brain.
因此，大脑重新连接的方式取决于在大脑内部创建正反馈循环的具体情况。
Similar things happen, Charlie Gilbert did these beautiful experiments with the retina, where you make dual lesions in the retina, and all the neurons will go, whoop, jump over to some crazy place.
类似的事情也发生过，查理·吉尔伯特用视网膜做了这些漂亮的实验，在视网膜上造成双重损伤，所有的神经元都会跳到一些疯狂的地方。
We now have computational models where we understand the neurons have no inputs.
我们现在有了计算模型，我们知道神经元没有输入。
They will tend to do dumb things.
他们往往会做出愚蠢的事情。
Michael Kilgard: They don't tend to do smart things, because you didn't tend to have simultaneously paired retinal lesions.
迈克尔·基尔加德：他们往往不会做聪明的事情，因为你不会同时出现配对的视网膜病变。
Michael Kilgard: So, trusting the network to do the right thing is a good idea.
Michael Kilgard：所以，相信网络会做正确的事情是一个好主意。
Brains are smart.
大脑很聪明。
But in the case of pathology, by definition, it's not doing the right thing or it would've fixed it.
但就病理学而言，根据定义，它没有做正确的事情，否则它会修复它。
So, the same thing is happening with cancer.
因此，癌症也发生同样的情况。
We get cancers all the time, and we fix them.
我们一直都会患上癌症，但我们会治愈它们。
Michael Kilgard: What's unique about cancers that cause problems, the two-hit hypothesis, is multiple things have gone wrong, and the normal tools that eliminate cancer don't work.
迈克尔·基尔加德（Michael Kilgard）：引起问题的癌症的独特之处在于，两次打击假说，是多种因素都出了问题，而消除癌症的常规工具不起作用。
Michael Kilgard: Same thing with epilepsy.
迈克尔·基尔加德：癫痫也是如此。
Normally, you have that little epileptic circle, fire together, wire together, and then you go, "Oh, let's get rid of this one." We make little epileptic foci, and get rid of them.
通常情况下，你会有那个小癫痫圈，一起点火，一起接线，然后你说，“哦，让我们摆脱这个。”我们制造一些癫痫病灶，然后将其去除。
We make little neuroses, we make little obsessive-compulsives all the time, and then we eliminate them.
我们总是会产生一些神经症，我们总是会产生一些强迫症，然后我们就消除它们。
Right?
正确的？
Just like my daughter saying, "I need to remove TikTok," or whatever it is.
就像我女儿说的，“我需要删除 TikTok”，或者其他什么。
We find it to be a problem, we find a solution.
我们发现这是一个问题，我们找到解决方案。
Sometimes we're aware of it, make a conscious decision, but more often our neurons are just doing it, our cells are doing it on our behalf behind the scenes.
有时我们会意识到这一点，做出有意识的决定，但更多时候我们的神经元只是在做这件事，我们的细胞在幕后代表我们做这件事。
Michael Kilgard: When you have flagrant cancer, it's going to kill the person, it's typically because multiple checkpoint inhibitors have been blocked.
迈克尔·基尔加德：当你患有公然的癌症时，它会致命，这通常是因为多个检查点抑制剂已被阻断。
There's a lot of problems.
有很多问题。
We think the same thing is true of brain diseases, whether it's mental health problems, or neurological, two things must have gone wrong at least, not just one thing.
我们认为脑部疾病也是如此，无论是心理健康问题，还是神经系统问题，至少肯定有两件事出了问题，而不仅仅是一件事。
Andrew Huberman: Perhaps, this is one of the reasons why more and more we're hearing from people like Chris Palmer out of Harvard, and others, who are saying, you know, nutrition and diet that supports metabolic health can help resolve, in some cases, all the symptoms but in most cases, some of the symptoms of mental health issues.
安德鲁·休伯曼：也许，这就是为什么我们越来越多地听到哈佛大学克里斯·帕尔默等人的声音，他们说，你知道，支持代谢健康的营养和饮食可以帮助解决某些情况下的所有症状，但在大多数情况下，可以解决心理健康问题的一些症状。
Schizophrenia, bipolar, depression, dementia, things of that sort.
精神分裂症、双向情感障碍、抑郁症、痴呆症等等。
Andrew Huberman: You know, there was even an attempt to create a type 3 diabetes nomenclature for Alzheimer's.
Andrew Huberman：您知道，甚至有人尝试为阿尔茨海默病创建 3 型糖尿病命名法。
That didn't really stick because it, you know, you can put people on a ketogenic diet, doesn't always improve their Alzheimer's, and it certainly doesn't cure it.
这并没有真正坚持下去，因为你知道，你可以让人们进行生酮饮食，但并不总能改善他们的阿尔茨海默病，而且当然也不能治愈它。
Andrew Huberman: But the notion that you have multiple things going on to give rise to dementia, you have multiple things going on to give rise to any mental health disorder, and so pushing or pulling on a neuromodulator, or changing your metabolic health in the way that neurons can use glucose or rely on ketones for fuel, it all kind of makes sense, now that we understand and we're observing this more and more.
Andrew Huberman：但是，有多种因素会导致痴呆症，有多种因素会导致任何精神健康障碍，因此推动或拉动神经调节剂，或者以神经元可以使用葡萄糖或依赖酮作为燃料的方式改变你的代谢健康，这一切都是有道理的，现在我们了解并且我们越来越多地观察这一点。
Where it gets tricky, for me, as a neuroscientist, is the goal, the hope was always specificity.
对于我来说，作为一名神经科学家，棘手的地方是目标，希望始终是特异性。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Right?
安德鲁·休伯曼：对吗？
The hope was this.
希望是这样的。
It was a little chip that you could put in that, okay; you have to spend the day at the clinic, but it's not 20 electric shock therapy treatments.
这是一个你可以放进去的小芯片，好吧；你必须在诊所待上一天，但这不是 20 次电击治疗。
Michael Kilgard: Right.
迈克尔·基尔加德：对。
Andrew Huberman: It's not a drug that makes your mood better, but, makes you up you know, kind of like, raises your levels of apathy, or nukes your libido, or changes your appetite in a direction you didn't want.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：这不是一种让你心情好起来的药物，而是一种让你兴奋的药物，你知道，有点像，提高你的冷漠程度，或者削弱你的性欲，或者改变你的食欲到你不想要的方向。
You know, the hope was specificity, the kind of specificity that we're seeing with...
你知道，希望是特异性，我们所看到的那种特异性......
you know, I'm going to get some flak for this.
你知道，我会因此受到一些批评。
I don't take these peptides, but I think a large number of people who could not lose weight any other way are seeing great success by taking Wegovy, and Ozempic, and related drugs.
我不服用这些肽，但我认为很多无法通过其他方式减肥的人通过服用 Wegovy、Ozempic 和相关药物取得了巨大成功。
Michael Kilgard: Mm-hmm.
迈克尔·基尔加德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I understand they still have to exercise, and some people feel like it's cheating, and there's a bunch of issues related to insurance, but let's face it, you know, sure, there's some nausea, but people who for years and years just struggled with their weight are finally bringing their weight down into a healthier range, and hopefully they'll do the behavioral things that support them as well.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我知道他们仍然需要锻炼，有些人觉得这是作弊，还有很多与保险相关的问题，但让我们面对现实吧，你知道，当然，有一些恶心，但多年来一直与体重作斗争的人们终于将体重降到了一个更健康的范围，希望他们也能做出支持他们的行为。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: So, as neuroscientists, we always wanted specificity.
Andrew Huberman：所以，作为神经科学家，我们一直想要特异性。
So, for someone with tinnitus who is, "Okay, I'm going to try not to think about it." But if I'm hearing birds in caves chirping in the background, and I'm just trying to write or read, I mean, it's already hard enough to focus on doing, you know, on focus and friction.
因此，对于患有耳鸣的人来说，“好吧，我会尽量不去想它。”但是，如果我听到山洞里的鸟儿在背景中叽叽喳喳，而我只是想写或读，我的意思是，专注于做事已经足够困难了，你知道，专注于焦点和摩擦。
Michael Kilgard: It's kind of hard.
迈克尔·基尔加德：这有点难。
Andrew Huberman: So, an impediment, like tinnitus, is something that one would hope you could really just, you know, delete out, like you cut a line of script in a Word document.
Andrew Huberman：所以，像耳鸣这样的障碍，是人们希望你真的可以删除的东西，就像你在 Word 文档中剪切一行脚本一样。
Michael Kilgard: Right, right.
迈克尔·基尔加德：对，对。
Andrew Huberman: So, when you stimulate the vagus nerve, using this device, and you want to get rid of tinnitus, what are the patients doing?
安德鲁·胡伯曼：那么，当你使用这个装置刺激迷走神经，并且你想摆脱耳鸣时，患者在做什么？
Are you capturing exactly what frequency the sound is?
您是否准确捕捉到声音的频率？
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
So, we ask them what their frequency is.
因此，我们询问他们的频率是多少。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Kilgard: We do an audiogram, we can tell what their frequency where they've lost are, but we don't know what their brain is rewired to play in their head.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我们做了听力图，我们可以知道他们失去的频率是多少，但我们不知道他们的大脑被重新连接以在他们的头脑中播放什么。
Andrew Huberman: But they're saying, "Wait, I hear it at that." It sounds like you're doing a tone matching.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但他们说，“等等，我听到了。”听起来您正在进行音调匹配。
Michael Kilgard: You match it to a tone.
迈克尔·基尔加德：你将它与语气相匹配。
Yeah, you do a tone matching.
是的，你进行音调匹配。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
So, you play like low, medium, high tones, and then they go, "Wait, it's kind of like the high tone."
所以，你演奏低音、中音、高音，然后他们会说，“等等，这有点像高音。”
Michael Kilgard: That's the one.
迈克尔·基尔加德：就是这个。
Andrew Huberman: And then you dial it in.
Andrew Huberman：然后你拨通它。
Okay.
好的。
Michael Kilgard: You first have to teach them about octave confusion.
迈克尔·基尔加德：你首先必须教他们有关八度混淆的知识。
If you're a music guy, you know.
如果你是一个音乐人，你就知道。
I'm not a music guy.
我不是音乐人。
Andrew Huberman: I'm not a music guy.
Andrew Huberman：我不是音乐人。
Michael Kilgard: But if you get the wrong octave, it's easy to confuse one octave higher, and then we don't know what tone they're actually hearing.
迈克尔·基尔加德：但是如果你弄错了八度，很容易混淆高一个八度，然后我们就不知道他们实际上听到的是什么音调。
So, it's a little bit...
所以，有点...
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Kilgard: You have to teach them about some tones sound the same, but they're just double the sound, is the point.
迈克尔·基尔加德：你必须教他们一些音调听起来是一样的，但它们只是声音的两倍，这就是重点。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Kilgard: But once you can figure out what they're hearing, we then want all the other neurons to be important.
迈克尔·基尔加德：但是一旦你能弄清楚他们听到的是什么，我们就希望所有其他神经元都很重要。
So, the idea we've talked about is, that set of neurons is too important.
所以，我们讨论的想法是，这组神经元太重要了。
It's doing something really important.
它正在做一些非常重要的事情。
Why?
为什么？
Because you're paying attention to it.
因为你在关注它。
Must be important, because you keep paying attention to it.
一定很重要，因为你一直在关注它。
So, I want to reward everybody but this set.
所以，我想奖励除了这组之外的所有人。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Kilgard: So, I play a low tone, lower than the thing, a high tone, higher than it.
迈克尔·基尔加德：所以，我演奏低音，比物体低，演奏高音，比物体高。
I'm trying to strengthen all the other neurons.
我正在努力强化所有其他神经元。
Back in that science paper back in the day, by playing multiple different tones, it narrows receptive fields.
回到当时的科学论文中，通过播放多种不同的音调，它可以缩小接受范围。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Kilgard: So, in this nature paper from 2011, which we first treated tinnitus in animals, what we saw that was most correlated, was actually receptive field size.
Michael Kilgard：所以，在 2011 年发表的这篇自然论文中，我们首先治疗了动物的耳鸣，我们看到最相关的实际上是感受野的大小。
The neurons become non-selective, which means they now all respond to the same input.
神经元变得没有选择性，这意味着它们现在都对相同的输入做出反应。
If you're really narrow, you only respond to one little bit of the cochlea.
如果你真的很窄，你只能对一小部分耳蜗做出反应。
If you're broad, which happens after damage, because you're trying to respond to something, now everybody responds to every wiggle and jiggle in the ear.
如果你的耳朵很宽，这种情况发生在受伤后，因为你试图对某些东西做出反应，那么现在每个人都会对耳朵里的每一次摆动和摇动做出反应。
All these neurons are now amplifying that.
所有这些神经元现在都在放大这一点。
The brain is a massive amplifier, and you get feedback.
大脑是一个巨大的放大器，你会得到反馈。
So, what we're trying to do is narrow receptive fields, and shift the map.
所以，我们要做的就是缩小感受野，并移动地图。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Kilgard: So, to find that big blue area where everything's the same way?
迈克尔·基尔加德：那么，要找到一切都一样的蓝色大区域吗？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Kilgard: Let's make diversity.
迈克尔·基尔加德：让我们实现多元化。
Andrew Huberman: So, you're trying to tune the piano and take out a few keys.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，你正在尝试给钢琴调音并取出一些琴键。
Michael Kilgard: That's right.
迈克尔·基尔加德：没错。
That's right.
这是正确的。
And this idea of diversity is something we didn't know about back in the day, the optimization and specificity idea.
这种多样性的想法是我们当时不知道的，即优化和特殊性的想法。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Kilgard: We had a culture of 'find the thing and get the thing'.
Michael Kilgard：我们有一种“找到东西并得到东西”的文化。
Now, mercifully, we're in a much more diverse idea, and we're learning that the training set matters.
现在，幸运的是，我们的想法更加多样化，并且我们了解到训练集很重要。
The stimuli are likely to be more complicated.
刺激可能更加复杂。
The idea that we wanted specificity, and we wanted treatments, and neuroscience hasn't provided that, I'll take exception with that.
我们想要特异性，我们想要治疗，而神经科学还没有提供这一点，我对此表示反对。
With phenylketonuria, we have a...
对于苯丙酮尿症，我们有...
Every baby born in this country gets a heel stick, and you measure the level of phenylalanine hydroxylase.
在这个国家出生的每个婴儿都会得到一根脚跟棒，然后你可以测量苯丙氨酸羟化酶的水平。
And if they don't have it, we put them on a special diet, so they avoid phenylalanine, and they don't have severe mental retardation.
如果他们没有苯丙氨酸，我们就会给他们特殊的饮食，这样他们就可以避免苯丙氨酸，而且他们也不会出现严重的智力障碍。
Problem solved.
问题解决了。
Andrew Huberman: Right.
安德鲁·休伯曼：对。
Michael Kilgard: Costs pennies.
迈克尔·基尔加德：花费几分钱。
Andrew Huberman: This is the warning that many people have seen on their Diet Coke cans, but they probably haven't explored as to what the meaning is, that PEA, right, for us is harmless.
Andrew Huberman：这是许多人在健怡可乐罐上看到的警告，但他们可能没有探究过其含义是什么，即 PEA 对我们来说是无害的。
Michael Kilgard: Yep.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Maybe even beneficial.
Andrew Huberman：也许甚至是有益的。
Confession here, I take 500 milligrams of it every morning.
在这里坦白说，我每天早上服用500毫克。
Makes you feel pretty good.
让你感觉非常好。
It's a little mild stimulant.
这是一种轻微的兴奋剂。
I've been doing that for years.
我已经这么做很多年了。
But if you don't have the enzyme to work with it, it can cause mental retardation.
但如果你没有与之合作的酶，就会导致智力低下。
Michael Kilgard: Right.
迈克尔·基尔加德：对。
And before, we just called everybody retarded, and now we go, "Wait, there's many different ways." Now the fact that we treated one, and it was a diet change, doesn't mean we've treated all of them.
以前，我们只是称每个人都是弱智，现在我们说，“等等，有很多不同的方式。”事实上，我们治疗了一个，而且是饮食改变，并不意味着我们已经治疗了所有人。
There's many other things that cause severe problems.
还有许多其他事情会导致严重问题。
Fragile X syndrome, FMR1, different gene causes a different set of thing, and you can't change your diet to fix it.
脆性 X 综合征，FMR1，不同的基因会导致不同的情况，并且您无法通过改变饮食来解决它。
That's not the nature of it.
这不是它的本质。
But the example we used from Hubel and Wiesel, where you now reverse suture, I've had lots of children, just working with kids, and point it out to their parents, "Do you see his eyes don't go right?" "I never noticed." And an ophthalmology professor in neuroscience is going to think, "Doesn't everybody notice eye movements?" No.
但我们使用 Hubel 和 Wiesel 的例子，你现在反向缝合，我有很多孩子，只是和孩子们一起工作，并向他们的父母指出，“你看到他的眼睛不正常吗？” “我从来没有注意到。”一位神经科学眼科教授会想：“难道不是每个人都注意到眼球运动吗？”不。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Michael Kilgard: Some people just don't pay attention to that.
迈克尔·基尔加德：有些人就是不注意这一点。
You point it out, and they go get treatment, whatever it might be, and they're better.
你指出这一点，他们就会去接受治疗，无论是什么，他们都会好起来。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, look, we should do a public health service announcement here, since we're reaching some people.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：是的，听着，我们应该在这里发布公共卫生服务公告，因为我们正在接触一些人。
If your child, regardless of age, but if your child has a, quote unquote, 'lazy eye,' or an eye that doesn't seem to align quite the same as the other when they're fatigued, or just naturally sits that way, it's very important to correct that early.
如果您的孩子，无论年龄大小，但如果您的孩子有“懒惰眼”，或者当他们疲劳时，一只眼睛似乎与另一只眼睛不太对齐，或者只是自然地坐成这样，那么尽早纠正这一点非常重要。
Once you get out past a certain age, there are components of the brain that can become permanently blind to it, which doesn't mean they're going to lose more vision.
一旦过了一定年龄，大脑的某些部分可能会永久失明，但这并不意味着他们会失去更多的视力。
It just means that they're probably only seeing correctly through one eye.
这只是意味着他们可能只能通过一只眼睛正确地看到。
And it's normal for babies actually, the development of the ocular muscles of the eyes, they don't always track so well, and fixate so well.
实际上，对于婴儿来说，这是正常的，眼睛的眼部肌肉的发育并不总是那么好，并且不能很好地注视。
Michael Kilgard: Mm-hmm.
迈克尔·基尔加德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Sometimes it's self-correcting, but they should really see a pediatric ophthalmologist.
安德鲁·休伯曼：有时这是自我纠正的，但他们真的应该去看儿科眼科医生。
Sorry, I can't help myself.
抱歉，我无法自拔。
Michael Kilgard: No, no, absolutely.
迈克尔·基尔加德：不，不，绝对。
Andrew Huberman: Half of my appointment is in ophthalmology.
Andrew Huberman：我的预约一半是在眼科。
So, if I don't say this, my colleagues will be angry.
所以，如果我不说出来，我的同事们会生气的。
But a lot of vision can be saved by a simple patch, or as you put eye drop interventions that only have to be done early in development.
但是，通过一个简单的补丁，或者只需在发育早期进行滴眼液干预，就可以挽救很多视力。
I have many friends whose kids have had these issues.
我有很多朋友的孩子都遇到过这些问题。
Michael Kilgard: It's amazing how few experiments were done.
迈克尔·基尔加德：令人惊讶的是，我们进行的实验如此之少。
I mean, they didn't do thousands of or...
我的意思是，他们没有做数千次或...
They did a handful.
他们做了一些。
It's the smallest number, and it had a very specific question, came up with a very specific answer.
这是最小的数字，它有一个非常具体的问题，给出了一个非常具体的答案。
So, I do think the specificity has worked.
所以，我确实认为这种特殊性已经发挥了作用。
On the molecular side, most people, and I'm not the one for saying this, many people, we looked for psychiatric disorders to mostly be caused by a single solution.
在分子方面，大多数人，我不是这么说的人，很多人，我们认为精神疾病主要是由单一解决方案引起的。
That's the smart thing to do.
这是明智之举。
If it's something simple, like in your car, usually it's something simple.
如果事情很简单，比如在你的车里，通常也是很简单的。
When your car is broken, there's usually one problem.
当你的车坏了时，通常会出现一个问题。
But in an economic system, there's probably 50 problems.
但在一个经济体系中，可能存在 50 个问题。
There's probably not one thing that's the bad thing.
可能没有一件事是坏事。
You got to fix a lot of things.
你必须解决很多事情。
Michael Kilgard: In an ecosystem, maybe somebody removed wolves and all you got to do is put wolves back, and it's an easy fix.
迈克尔·基尔加德：在一个生态系统中，也许有人消灭了狼，你所要做的就是把狼放回去，这是一个很容易解决的问题。
But typically, it's some big, messy situation you're trying to better understand.
但通常情况下，这是你试图更好地理解的一些大而混乱的情况。
And I think, I am a biologist, we talked about that, I read a book not too long ago on kelp, sea kelp, Macrocystis, and like, why does kelp live where it lives?
我想，我是一名生物学家，我们讨论过这一点，不久前我读了一本关于海带、海带、巨囊藻的书，比如，为什么海带生活在它生活的地方？
It's just incredible.
这真是令人难以置信。
There's hundreds of grazers, things adding to it.
这里有数百只食草动物，数量还在不断增加。
The story you've heard about sea urchins and otters is way too simple.
您听说过的关于海胆和水獭的故事太简单了。
Michael Kilgard: But it's okay.
迈克尔·基尔加德：但是没关系。
It's a way to think about it.
这是一种思考方式。
But we just come to understand, to take care of the natural world, it's complicated.
但我们才开始明白，照顾自然世界是很复杂的。
There's not going to be this one silver bullet, and that's the same of our brain.
不会有这一颗灵丹妙药，我们的大脑也是如此。
And I like that.
我喜欢这样。
I'm fine with that.
我对此很满意。
My health, my diet, my whatever, it's about diversity.
我的健康、我的饮食、我的一切，都与多样性有关。
Michael Kilgard: Try to eat a bunch of things.
迈克尔·基尔加德：尝试吃很多东西。
If someone is just eating potatoes, and tater tots, and chicken nuggets, if that's all they eat, yes, you're going to need to supplement something.
如果有人只吃土豆、土豆块和鸡块，如果他们只吃这些，是的，你需要补充一些东西。
They're going to have problems.
他们将会遇到问题。
And a lot of people are, because their socioeconomic status is a big one that we don't talk too much about.
很多人都是这样，因为他们的社会经济地位是一个我们不会谈论太多的重要地位。
Michael Kilgard: Like, the neuroscience are trying to understand, if you're poor, what things are worth it and what things aren't?
迈克尔·基尔加德：就像，神经科学试图了解，如果你很穷，哪些事情值得，哪些事情不值得？
It's just really hard to make these judgments.
做出这些判断真的很难。
Easy to be a parent when you've got lots of resources.
当你拥有大量资源时，成为父母很容易。
It's really hard when you're facing latchkey kids, and expensive food, and all the rest.
当你面对挂钥匙的孩子、昂贵的食物以及其他一切时，这真的很难。
So, that specificity thing, I think we've nailed it on choline.
所以，我认为我们已经将其特异性定在了胆碱上。
I think we've nailed it on a lot of these stories.
我想我们已经在很多这样的故事上做到了这一点。
But does that mean we've got blanket cures for most neurological psychiatric disorders?
但这是否意味着我们可以一刀切地治愈大多数神经精神疾病？
No. For tinnitus, we understood, we had a theory of what it was.
不。对于耳鸣，我们了解，我们有一个关于它是什么的理论。
Michael Kilgard: We ran animal studies.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我们进行了动物研究。
We reproduced it in animals, and then we cured it in animals.
我们在动物身上复制了它，然后在动物身上治愈了它。
And then we did the next step, and it was not as successful as we wanted to.
然后我们做了下一步，但并没有我们想要的那么成功。
Michael Kilgard: So, the answer was, 50% of people got 50% better.
Michael Kilgard：所以，答案是，50% 的人进步了 50%。
That is called 75% of the problem is still there, not very good.
也就是所谓的75%的问题仍然存在，不是很好。
In addition, we had something called sequestration, where the federal government shut down, and a large military trial we were going to run got canceled.
此外，我们还有一种叫做“隔离”的措施，联邦政府关闭了，我们要进行的一项大型军事审判也被取消了。
So, we just had...
所以，我们刚刚...
Andrew Huberman: Was that recently?
安德鲁·休伯曼：是最近吗？
Michael Kilgard: That was years ago.
迈克尔·基尔加德：那是几年前的事了。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
Michael Kilgard: We've been doing this a long time.
Michael Kilgard：我们已经这样做很长时间了。
But there's just hiccups along the way, political or whatever else.
但一路上总会遇到一些小问题，无论是政治上的还是其他方面的。
But we were going to invest in it, because it was the number one disability in the military, so we were going to invest in let's treat it, and then we got sidelined.
但我们打算投资它，因为这是军队中头号残疾，所以我们打算投资治疗它，然后我们就被边缘化了。
Stroke had the advantage that unlike chronic pain and tinnitus, we know exactly what causes it.
中风的优势在于，与慢性疼痛和耳鸣不同，我们确切地知道中风的病因。
So, my team switched to stroke, because there's no controversy about stroke.
所以，我的团队转向中风，因为中风没有争议。
No one's faking it.
没有人会造假。
I can measure it very easily.
我可以很容易地测量它。
I can see the hole in the head.
我可以看到头上的洞。
I can see their functions.
我可以看到它们的功能。
Michael Kilgard: With tinnitus and chronic pain, you can't know.
迈克尔·基尔加德：由于耳鸣和慢性疼痛，你无法知道。
Spinal cord injury, same thing.
脊髓损伤，同样的事情。
You know what causes spinal cord injuries.
您知道导致脊髓损伤的原因。
They had a fight, or car accident, or a fall, or boating accident.
他们打架了，或者出了车祸，或者跌倒了，或者划船了。
For PTSD, it's the only mental illness we know what causes it.
对于创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）来说，这是我们知道的唯一一种导致其病因的精神疾病。
The diagnostic criterion A, trauma is what causes you to have that thing, by definition.
诊断标准 A，根据定义，创伤是导致你出现这种情况的原因。
The others, schizophrenia, we got theories, we got genes, we got factors.
其他的，精神分裂症，我们有理论，我们有基因，我们有因素。
Michael Kilgard: So, we chose these first three very intentionally, and we're now sort of working our way back, saying, "If synaptic plasticity, rewiring of new connections in the brain, if that could be used therapeutically..." And we know it can.
迈克尔·基尔加德：所以，我们非常有意地选择了前三个，现在我们正在回过头来，说，“如果突触可塑性，大脑中新连接的重新布线，如果这可以用于治疗......”我们知道它可以。
I mean, that's how rehab works.
我的意思是，这就是康复的运作方式。
That's how people get better from drug addiction, or cutting, or whatever else they're doing.
这就是人们从毒瘾、戒毒或其他任何行为中康复的方法。
Someone talks to them.
有人跟他们说话。
It's just kind of inefficient, takes a lot of time, a lot of money.
这只是效率低下，需要大量时间和金钱。
Could we help the therapist be better?
我们可以帮助治疗师变得更好吗？
Therapists love neuroplasticity.
治疗师喜欢神经可塑性。
If you haven't talked to a therapist about neuroplasticity, they love them some neuroplasticity.
如果您还没有与治疗师谈论过神经可塑性，他们会喜欢一些神经可塑性。
Michael Kilgard: But then they're disappointed because it's like, "But I can't make everybody better.
迈克尔·基尔加德：但他们会感到失望，因为这就像，“但我不能让每个人都变得更好。
And I can't make anybody all the way better, most of the time." So, how can both be true?
大多数时候，我无法让任何人变得更好。”那么，两者怎么可能都是真的呢？
That's just how it is.
就是这样。
It's a hard problem we didn't evolve with, we don't have a great solution, but we could do something about it.
这是一个我们没有解决的难题，我们没有很好的解决方案，但我们可以做一些事情。
This was true of cancer 100 years ago.
100 年前的癌症就是如此。
We would just say, "Grandpa died of old age." We didn't know there were cells ravaging his body of prostate cancer, colon cancer, cervical cancer.
我们只会说：“爷爷老死了。”我们不知道前列腺癌、结肠癌、宫颈癌等细胞正在肆虐他的身体。
We didn't know that.
我们不知道这一点。
We just thought he got bad, his heart stopped, he died.
我们只是认为他病了，他的心脏停止了，他死了。
That's what happened.
这就是发生的事情。
Michael Kilgard: Now we took it apart, but it took decade after decade over decade.
迈克尔·基尔加德：现在我们把它拆开，但花了十多年的时间。
And we first thought there was one cell type.
我们首先认为存在一种细胞类型。
Now we know it's a whole living ecosystem of cancer cells feeding each other and alive, and you can't just attack it one way, you got to attack it multiple ways.
现在我们知道这是一个完整的活的癌细胞生态系统，它们互相喂养并且活着，你不能只用一种方式攻击它，你必须以多种方式攻击它。
That's how I'm coming to understand these brain disorders.
这就是我开始理解这些大脑疾病的方式。
They're really tricky bastards.
他们真是狡猾的混蛋。
When you look at HIV, you go, "Ooh, that's a good one." That's not just some virus, that's not just some bacteria with some polysaccharide you can attack.
当你看到艾滋病毒时，你会说，“哦，那是个好东西。”这不仅仅是一些病毒，也不仅仅是一些带有多糖的细菌，你可以攻击它们。
Michael Kilgard: That thing is really, really tricky, which is why we don't have an easy cure for this communicable disease, which we totally understand; HIV.
迈克尔·基尔加德：这件事真的非常棘手，这就是为什么我们没有一种简单的方法来治愈这种我们完全理解的传染病；艾滋病病毒。
It's just a particularly sneaky one.
这只是一个特别偷偷摸摸的。
But the specificity for all kinds of viruses, all kinds of bacteria, we have an amazing armamentarium.
但针对各种病毒、各种细菌的特异性，我们拥有令人惊叹的武器库。
For the brain, we've got a couple.
对于大脑，我们有几个。
I would say Parkinson's disease, we know what causes it, and the symptom is, you don't have enough output from your motor system, and so you can disinhibit the system with a deep brain stimulating nucleus, and people...
我想说的是帕金森病，我们知道它的病因，症状是，你的运动系统没有足够的输出，所以你可以用深部大脑刺激核来抑制该系统，人们......
Everyone's seen the videos.
大家都看过视频了。
If you haven't, go to YouTube, Parkinson's on and off, deep brain stimulator, and you'll see people who were golfing, and then can barely walk.
如果你还没有，去 YouTube，帕金森氏症时断时续的深层大脑刺激器，你会看到人们在打高尔夫球，然后几乎无法行走。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Kilgard: Now, you and I know, as many people do, those final neurons will eventually die, and that will eventually be a problem.
迈克尔·基尔加德：现在，你和我都知道，正如许多人所做的那样，那些最后的神经元最终会死亡，这最终将成为一个问题。
You're not changing the death that's happening in a person with Parkinson's, but you're giving them years of new life.
你并没有改变帕金森病患者的死亡，但你给了他们多年的新生命。
That's fantastic for relatively cost-effective tools.
这对于相对具有成本效益的工具来说非常棒。
Cochlear implant, same thing.
人工耳蜗，同样的事情。
People are stone deaf.
人们都是聋子。
They're not lipreading.
他们不是在读唇语。
They can pick up a phone just like you and I and have a conversation.
他们可以像你我一样拿起电话进行交谈。
They are fully restored to normal hearing and conversation.
他们完全恢复正常听力和谈话。
But it's a small subset.
但这只是一个很小的子集。
The list of things we've cured is small, but those are proof of concepts that if we understand it, we can cure more.
我们已经治愈的疾病清单很小，但这些都是概念的证明，如果我们理解它，我们就可以治愈更多。
Not just alleviate, not just treat, but cure.
不仅仅是缓解，不仅仅是治疗，而是治愈。
Andrew Huberman: Well, I hear a couple of things, and I'm in agreement with you.
Andrew Huberman：嗯，我听到了一些事情，我同意你的观点。
First, everyone needs to appreciate that brains are made up of circuits, and networks, and chemicals.
首先，每个人都需要认识到大脑是由电路、网络和化学物质组成的。
And it's very unlikely, except for rare case conditions, that there will be a one-pill, one-drug type solution, or that there will be a five-pill, five-drug type solution to any neurologic or psychiatric illness.
除了极少数情况外，对于任何神经或精神疾病，不太可能有一种药丸、一种药物类型的解决方案，或者五种药丸、五种药物类型的解决方案。
Sorry, folks.
抱歉，各位。
That's the reality.
这就是现实。
Andrew Huberman: I think, the last 50 years of research into these things has revealed that.
Andrew Huberman：我认为，过去 50 年对这些事情的研究已经揭示了这一点。
I'm also hearing that direct circuit stimulation holds great promise.
我还听说直接电路刺激前景广阔。
Your work, people with spinal cord injury, tinnitus, enhancement of learning in non-injured people; some of that work has been done not as much, for obvious reasons, treating disease is kind of the priority.
你的工作，脊髓损伤的人，耳鸣，非受伤的人的学习增强；由于显而易见的原因，其中一些工作尚未完成，治疗疾病是当务之急。
Andrew Huberman: Brain stimulation and neural pathway stimulation from the brain to body, AKA vagus stimulation, works.
Andrew Huberman：大脑刺激和从大脑到身体的神经通路刺激，又称迷走神经刺激，是有效的。
But it's not the whole picture.
但这还不是全部。
You also need very targeted training during the stimulation, to know exactly what patterns of neural firing you're trying to notch out, as we say, and which ones you're trying to exacerbate, to overtake the neural territory.
正如我们所说，你还需要在刺激过程中进行非常有针对性的训练，以准确地了解你想要消除哪些神经放电模式，以及你想要加剧哪些神经放电模式，以超越神经区域。
Michael Kilgard: Yep.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And then the third category, which is drugs, whether it's through a naturally occurring compound like a mushroom that grows out of the ground, or synthetically-derived psilocybin, or now a lot of the psychedelics, like LSD; they're trying to manufacture variations on them that don't carry the hallucinogenic properties, but perhaps can still work as plasticity agents.
安德鲁·休伯曼：然后是第三类，即毒品，无论是通过天然存在的化合物（例如从地里长出来的蘑菇），还是合成的裸盖菇素，或者现在的许多致幻剂，例如LSD；他们正在尝试制造不具有致幻特性的变体，但也许仍然可以用作可塑剂。
Michael Kilgard: Yep.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: So, all this is being worked on.
Andrew Huberman：所以，所有这些都正在进行中。
But drugs, I mean, maybe better ways to augment serotonin that are neither psychedelic nor SSRIs.
但药物，我的意思是，也许是增加血清素的更好方法，既不是致幻剂，也不是 SSRIs。
Seems like the tripartite approach is going to be best.
看来三方方法是最好的。
It's going to be devices, plus training, plus drugs.
这将是设备、培训和药物。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: So that someone can really boost the plasticity in the areas they want, and they can suppress neural circuit function in the areas they don't.
Andrew Huberman：这样人们就可以真正增强他们想要的区域的可塑性，并且他们可以抑制他们不需要的区域的神经回路功能。
And I think when we're talking about this, I think this is going to be in the context of stroke, spinal cord injury, dementia.
我认为当我们谈论这个问题时，我认为这将是在中风、脊髓损伤、痴呆症的背景下进行的。
Whenever you say autism, I always get a lot of comments saying, "Wait, why are we trying to cure autism?" We're talking about people with such serious degrees, so far on the spectrum that they need constant care from others.
每当你提到自闭症时，我总会收到很多评论说：“等等，我们为什么要试图治愈自闭症？”我们谈论的是那些拥有如此严肃学位的人，到目前为止，他们需要别人的持续照顾。
They're not functional.
它们没有功能。
Michael Kilgard: Self-injurious.
迈克尔·基尔加德：自残。
Andrew Huberman: They're self-injurious.
安德鲁·休伯曼：他们有自残行为。
Yeah, this kind of thing.
是的，这种事。
I'm not talking about people who are on the spectrum and functional.
我不是在谈论那些处于谱系和职能范围内的人。
I know many people, I work with many people that are on the spectrum and functional.
我认识很多人，我和很多不同类型、有职能的人一起工作。
So, and on and on.
所以，如此等等。
Andrew Huberman: So, I think that if I were in charge, and I'm not in charge, but if I were controlling the NIH budget for neuroscience research, I would be encouraging all three of these areas, as well as trying to parse the various circuitries.
Andrew Huberman：所以，我认为，如果我负责，或者我不负责，但如果我控制 NIH 的神经科学研究预算，我会鼓励所有这三个领域，并尝试解析各种电路。
Michael Kilgard: Yep.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I think it's all essential.
Andrew Huberman：我认为这都很重要。
I will say that I've been surprised how long it took for the adult plasticity work that you, and Merzenich, and Gregg Recanzone, and others did to really make it into medicine.
我想说的是，我很惊讶你、Merzenich、Gregg Recanzone 和其他人所做的成人可塑性研究花了多长时间才真正进入医学领域。
I feel like it took a while.
我感觉花了一段时间。
Not because you weren't busy working on it, but because it didn't seem like there was a big belief in brain-machine interface for a long time.
不是因为你不忙于研究它，而是因为很长一段时间以来人们似乎并没有对脑机接口抱有很大的信心。
Andrew Huberman: Now we have Neuralink, we have you, we've got folks like our friend Eddie Chang, who's doing remarkable work in taking people out of locked-in syndrome.
Andrew Huberman：现在我们有了 Neuralink，我们有了你，我们有了像我们的朋友 Eddie Chang 这样的人，他在帮助人们摆脱锁定综合症方面做出了出色的工作。
I think it's starting to happen.
我认为这已经开始发生了。
I'm very encouraged.
我很受鼓舞。
Michael Kilgard: I have, recently, a new explanation, because it was frustrating to me being raised by these fathers, like we both were, who studied neuroplasticity, and talked about it, and trained about it.
迈克尔·基尔加德：最近我有了一个新的解释，因为由这些父亲抚养长大让我感到沮丧，就像我们俩一样，他们研究神经可塑性，谈论它，并接受训练。
It was frustrating to me at first that people didn't get it.
起初，人们不明白这一点，这让我很沮丧。
I've come around in my way of thinking about this.
我已经开始思考这个问题了。
It was smarter to hope that it was going to be simple.
希望事情变得简单是更聪明的做法。
It was smarter to hope that drugs would work.
希望药物能起作用是更聪明的做法。
It was smarter to hope that a stem cell could be added, those one cell type.
更明智的做法是希望能够添加干细胞，即一种细胞类型。
That's actually not unreasonable.
这其实也不无道理。
If your car is broken, hope it's something simple.
如果你的车坏了，希望事情很简单。
Don't start off with the more complicated one.
不要从更复杂的开始。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Kilgard: It's sort of Occam's razor at a societal level.
迈克尔·基尔加德：这有点像社会层面的奥卡姆剃刀。
The question is, how long do you keep doing it?
问题是，你能坚持这样做多久？
And I think you're making this point.
我认为你正在强调这一点。
You got this one nice paper with adeno-associated virus gene therapy changing things.
你读到了一篇关于腺相关病毒基因疗法改变事物的好论文。
I mean, these are all on the table, all of them.
我的意思是，这些都在桌面上，全部。
Now, some of them are more safe than others, some are more challenging, but the combination therapy; we have a combination problem, and it's a pretty big problem, whether it's obesity problem, or degenerative disorders, neurodevelopmental disorders, anxiety disorders, mood disorders.
现在，其中一些比其他更安全，一些更具挑战性，但是联合疗法；我们有一个综合问题，这是一个相当大的问题，无论是肥胖问题，还是退行性疾病、神经发育障碍、焦虑症、情绪障碍。
Michael Kilgard: But we don't need to medicalize everything.
迈克尔·基尔加德：但我们不需要将一切都医学化。
If you're fine, you're fine.
如果你没事，那就没事。
But if you've got a serious problem, these are not subtle conditions.
但如果你有严重的问题，这些都不是微妙的情况。
These are people who are really, really, really struggling.
这些人真的、真的、真的在挣扎。
They're willing to try anything.
他们愿意尝试任何事情。
And we have this obligation to sort out what works, and throwing the kitchen sink at it is not so great.
我们有义务找出有效的方法，把厨房水槽扔到它上面并不是那么好。
The FDA is having to wrestle with, "What do you mean you're going to do four different therapy?" Let's just take a two-combination therapy.
FDA 不得不思考“你要进行四种不同的治疗是什么意思？”让我们采取两种联合疗法。
Do I now have to do a four-arm study, where I do one group who gets both, one who gets just this, one who gets just that, and one who gets neither?
我现在是否必须进行一项四臂研究，其中一组得到两者，一组只得到这个，一组只得到那个，一组什么都没有得到？
Michael Kilgard: Statistically, that really increases the cost.
Michael Kilgard：从统计数据来看，这确实增加了成本。
So, we say, "No, let's do it where you do all the things you think are going to need it, and then none of those things." So, even; are we doing science experiments?
所以，我们说，“不，让我们做你认为需要它的所有事情，然后什么都不做。”所以，甚至；我们在做科学实验吗？
No, we're trying to treat people.
不，我们正在努力对待人们。
So, I think the pieces of the puzzle are there.
所以，我认为拼图的碎片就在那里。
And to my mind, the animal literature is clear, it's complicated.
在我看来，动物文学很清楚，但也很复杂。
I mean, I think about the number of genes that had...
我的意思是，我想到了有多少基因......
for ocular dominance plasticity, the change in the visual system with two eyes.
对于眼睛优势可塑性，两只眼睛视觉系统的变化。
How many genes play a role in that?
有多少基因在其中发挥作用？
Many genes.
许多基因。
Michael Kilgard: Many times when we say, "Here's a new gene that plays a role.
迈克尔·基尔加德：很多时候，当我们说，“这是一个发挥作用的新基因。
There's a new gene that plays a role." It's complicated.
有一个新基因在发挥作用。”情况很复杂。
We didn't know that.
我们不知道这一点。
We really thought it was going to be like our designed world, where there's something simple, where you fix it.
我们真的认为它会像我们设计的世界一样，那里有一些简单的东西，你可以修复它。
This grindstone isn't working because the water's not flowing in right, turning this thing.
这块磨石不起作用，因为水没有正确流动，无法转动它。
And when you're fixing a car, cars are complicated.
当你修理汽车时，汽车很复杂。
Apologies to all my friends who are mechanics.
向所有机械师朋友致歉。
Michael Kilgard: But by comparison to the brain, where you're talking about 20,000 different genes, you're talking about billions of different inputs coming in every hour, and it's stored in a network of trillions of synapses, it's just really very complicated.
Michael Kilgard：但是与大脑相比，大脑有 20,000 个不同的基因，每小时都会有数十亿个不同的输入，并且它存储在由数万亿个突触组成的网络中，这真的非常复杂。
We didn't have enough humility, but I now think even if we had the humility, it was still smart to spend 50 years trying what we tried.
我们没有足够的谦逊，但我现在认为，即使我们有谦逊，花 50 年时间尝试我们尝试过的事情仍然是明智的。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Kilgard: It just didn't work.
迈克尔·基尔加德：这根本行不通。
And now the question is, what do we do next?
现在的问题是，我们下一步做什么？
And I think there will be investment.
我认为会有投资。
I think people who are enlightened...
我认为那些开明的人...
And it's interesting, patients really like the cochlear implant.
有趣的是，患者真的很喜欢人工耳蜗。
They know how it works.
他们知道它是如何运作的。
It's not just, "Take a pill." It's these 8 or 20 electrodes are on my nerve, which is organized like piano keys, and each one pushes a different button.
这不仅仅是“吃药”。这 8 或 20 个电极位于我的神经上，它的组织就像钢琴键一样，每个电极按下一个不同的按钮。
These are highs, these are lows.
这些是高点，这些是低点。
They kind of get it.
他们有点明白了。
They take ownership of it.
他们拥有它的所有权。
And you see kids at the pool now, I mean, they've got bright pink ones.
你现在看到游泳池里的孩子们，我的意思是，他们有亮粉色的孩子。
They're not bothered by it whatsoever.
他们对此一点也不介意。
That's how I hear.
我就是这么听说的。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Kilgard: And so I think that openness, the stigma's now gone.
迈克尔·基尔加德：所以我认为这种开放性和耻辱现在已经消失了。
Before, we had lots of stigma.
以前，我们有很多耻辱。
And for me, the chemical imbalance thing creates a lot of stigma.
对我来说，化学不平衡的事情造成了很多耻辱。
You're broken, the only person who can fix you is someone who has the ability to prescribe medications.
你已经崩溃了，唯一能修复你的人就是有能力开药的人。
Doctors don't want that therapy.
医生不想要这种疗法。
They're not looking to be the boss of the world.
他们并不希望成为世界的老大。
They're intimidated, bothered, humbled by it themselves, but that's the system that we were entertaining.
他们自己对此感到害怕、困扰和谦卑，但这就是我们所娱乐的系统。
Now that we have a situation where you're saying, "You have a brain.
现在我们遇到这样的情况，你说：“你有大脑。
I'm going to help you with it."
我会帮你的。”
Michael Kilgard: Whether you're a coach, a parent, spiritual guidance person, a therapist, let's work to be who you want to be.
迈克尔·基尔加德：无论你是教练、家长、精神指导者、治疗师，让我们努力成为你想成为的人。
I think that's just a much more healthy way.
我认为这是一种更健康的方式。
I think it's much more accurate.
我认为这更准确。
It's much more how economies, ecosystems work, these distributed complex networks.
更重要的是经济体、生态系统以及这些分布式复杂网络的运作方式。
There's not usually a one-size-fits-all.
通常没有一刀切的方法。
And what's nice is, our lived experiences really matter.
令人高兴的是，我们的生活经历确实很重要。
What you think is working for you really is valuable, and we're all really different.
你认为对你有用的东西确实很有价值，而且我们都是不同的。
You know, the kinds of fiber supplements someone uses or the kind of sleep regimen someone else needs.
您知道，某人使用的纤维补充剂种类或其他人需要的睡眠养生方式。
I had someone at UCSF who, God, she slept like four hours a night, and I was like, "This is impossible." She made amazing things happen.
我在加州大学旧金山分校有一个人，天啊，她每晚睡四个小时，我当时想，“这是不可能的。”她让奇妙的事情发生了。
I couldn't do it.
我做不到。
Andrew Huberman: Is she still alive?
安德鲁·休伯曼：她还活着吗？
Michael Kilgard: She is.
迈克尔·基尔加德：她是。
She's phenomenal person.
她是一个了不起的人。
Andrew Huberman: Some people need very little sleep.
Andrew Huberman：有些人需要很少的睡眠。
Michael Kilgard: It's amazing to me.
迈克尔·基尔加德：这对我来说太神奇了。
Andrew Huberman: I know some of those.
Andrew Huberman：我知道其中一些。
Or they learn to get by on it.
或者他们学会以此为生。
I must ask, because I can't help but ask.
我必须问，因为我忍不住要问。
There are a bunch of domains where brain-machine interface is being talked about and used, not to cure disease, but to increase or accelerate plasticity.
在很多领域，脑机接口正在被讨论和使用，不是为了治愈疾病，而是为了增加或加速可塑性。
Michael Kilgard: Mm-hmm.
迈克尔·基尔加德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Some years ago, there was a device, and I'm not trying to pick on any companies here.
Andrew Huberman：几年前，有一种设备，我并不是想在这里挑剔任何公司。
I have no stake in this.
我与此无关。
But people were excited about it.
但人们对此感到兴奋。
It looked like a headband that you could put over your motor cortex or sensory cortex while you were practicing your golf swing, or your baseball swing, or studying.
它看起来就像一个头带，当你练习高尔夫挥杆、棒球挥杆或学习时，你可以把它戴在你的运动皮层或感觉皮层上。
And the idea was that you were going to boost the levels of activity in the neurons sitting below that band, and that the rationale was, you're increasing the likelihood that those cells were going to fire together, wire together.
这个想法是，你将提高位于该带下方的神经元的活动水平，其基本原理是，你将增加这些细胞一起放电、连接在一起的可能性。
I mean, crudely speaking, the logic was sort of there.
我的意思是，粗略地说，逻辑就在那里。
There were a lot of pieces missing, like the critical spike-timing-dependent plasticity that you were talking about before.
有很多部分缺失，例如您之前讨论的关键的尖峰时间依赖性可塑性。
It's unclear if it impacted neuromodulation.
目前尚不清楚它是否影响神经调节。
I don't know whatever happened to those sorts of devices.
我不知道这些设备发生了什么。
Andrew Huberman: It seems like it just kind of went the way off; nobody uses them anymore.
Andrew Huberman：看起来好像有点不对劲；没有人再使用它们了。
I certainly don't see people using them.
我当然没有看到人们使用它们。
Nowadays, there are a number of things.
如今，有很多事情。
We get sent these from time to time, where the idea is that you're going to get vagal stimulation with a cuff that either goes around your midsection, so these are non-invasive things, or an anklet tool that provides feedback by vibration.
我们时不时会收到这些信息，其中的想法是，您将通过环绕您的腹部的袖带（因此这些是非侵入性的东西）或通过振动提供反馈的脚链工具来获得迷走神经刺激。
Andrew Huberman: I've also recently seen a growing number of companies that are developing visors for enhancing sleep.
Andrew Huberman：我最近还看到越来越多的公司正在开发用于改善睡眠的护目镜。
There, I actually think there's an opportunity, because some of them can engage eye movements.
我实际上认为这是一个机会，因为其中一些可以引起眼球运动。
Michael Kilgard: Mm-hmm.
迈克尔·基尔加德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: There's some very interesting literature about specific patterns of eye movements making it easier to fall asleep very quickly.
Andrew Huberman：有一些非常有趣的文献介绍了特定的眼球运动模式可以让我们更容易快速入睡。
I'll get to this in a future podcast.
我将在以后的播客中谈到这一点。
Michael Kilgard: Hmm.
迈克尔·基尔加德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: But this is interesting.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但这很有趣。
But what are your thoughts on non-invasive tools, commercial devices, to boost plasticity?
但是您对非侵入性工具、商业设备来提高可塑性有何看法？
And I'm talking about, in the absence of any pharmacology.
我说的是，在没有任何药理学的情况下。
Just put this thing over your head, put this helmet on.
只要把这个东西戴在头上，戴上这个头盔就可以了。
We're not just going to measure brain activity, we're going to improve learning and memory.
我们不仅要测量大脑活动，还要改善学习和记忆。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah, I mean, the key to the brain is information.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的，我的意思是，大脑的关键是信息。
The way ChatGPT got so smart is, it knows every word we ever wrote to each other, and every great book and all that.
ChatGPT 如此聪明的原因在于，它知道我们写给对方的每一个字，以及每一本伟大的书等等。
It just had a lot of information.
它只是有很多信息。
And so, the question's always, what information is being added to the network?
因此，问题始终是，哪些信息被添加到网络中？
And so, medications tend not to add a huge amount of information.
因此，药物往往不会添加大量信息。
They may bias, they may help.
他们可能会产生偏见，也可能会有所帮助。
But experiences you have, when you learn to play violin, you did a lot of stuff.
但根据你的经验，当你学习拉小提琴时，你做了很多事情。
Michael Kilgard: And that richness of information, which we, since the early days of information theory, Claude Shannon, we call it bits.
迈克尔·基尔加德：信息的丰富性，从信息论的早期开始，克劳德·香农，我们称之为比特。
How many bits of information is it providing?
它提供了多少位信息？
If something is always on, it can't be providing much information.
如果某些东西始终处于开启状态，则它无法提供太多信息。
There was a big thing, it was called transcranial direct current stimulation, TDCS.
有一个大东西，它叫经颅直流电刺激，TDCS。
There was transcranial magnetic stimulation, TMS.
有经颅磁刺激，TMS。
Michael Kilgard: Each of these things had lots of great advantages.
Michael Kilgard：这些东西都有很多很大的优点。
But the total amount of information they were providing to the neurons was relatively small, compared to listening to my voice.
但与听我的声音相比，它们向神经元提供的信息总量相对较小。
My voice, if I write this down, you're going to see, it's going to be megabytes.
我的声音，如果我把这个写下来，你会看到，它将是兆字节。
I record 20 minutes worth of me talking, it's going to take megabytes to write down all the vibrations if you want to hear my pitch intonation.
我录制了 20 分钟的谈话内容，如果你想听我的音高语调，需要花费兆字节才能写下所有振动。
If you just write down the letters, it could be much smaller, but there's still a lot of information.
如果你只写下字母，它可能会小得多，但仍然有很多信息。
Michael Kilgard: So I think, that's the way I think about it, is how much information is being provided is the key unit.
迈克尔·基尔加德：所以我认为，这就是我的思考方式，提供多少信息是关键单位。
So, if the thing is on all the time and not really feeding anything back, it's probably not helping much.
因此，如果这个东西一直在运行并且没有真正反馈任何东西，那么它可能没有多大帮助。
Andrew Huberman: It's just like taking nicotine.
Andrew Huberman：这就像服用尼古丁一样。
It's just like taking some nicotine gum.
这就像服用一些尼古丁口香糖一样。
It's raising acetylcholine, that's increasing the amount of firing, but there's not enough specificity there, in terms of timing.
它会提高乙酰胆碱，从而增加放电量，但就时间而言，还没有足够的特异性。
It sounds like it might slightly bias the probability that a learning event will occur.
听起来这可能会稍微偏差学习事件发生的概率。
But maybe one of the reasons these devices keep surfacing, these commercial devices keep surfacing and then disappearing, is that no one is raving about the results.
但也许这些设备不断出现、这些商业设备不断出现然后消失的原因之一是没有人对结果赞不绝口。
Michael Kilgard: That's right.
迈克尔·基尔加德：没错。
Andrew Huberman: You would think if something was truly awesome, it would take off.
Andrew Huberman：你会认为如果某件事真的很棒，它就会起飞。
Michael Kilgard: And that's why FDA decides not to regulate it.
Michael Kilgard：这就是 FDA 决定不对其进行监管的原因。
It's not dangerous.
这并不危险。
If you want to put a stimulator on, that activates your stuff, you want to wear pressure point bands, you want to do copper, these things come, they go, that's totally fine.
如果你想戴上刺激器，激活你的东西，你想戴压力点带，你想做铜，这些东西来了，它们走了，那完全没问题。
Just don't make medical claims.
只是不要提出医疗索赔。
If you're making medical claims, that's crossing a line.
如果你提出医疗索赔，那就越界了。
We now have to switch gears and say, "We're going to have to come down like a ton of bricks on this.
我们现在必须换个方向，说：“我们必须在这件事上付出很多努力。
You haven't shown that." And so, there've been claims about video games online, and companies have had to pay big fines, because they made claims that this video game will fix whatever it is.
你还没有表现出这一点。”因此，有人声称在线视频游戏，而公司不得不支付巨额罚款，因为他们声称这款视频游戏将解决任何问题。
Andrew Huberman: Stutter is a big one.
安德鲁·休伯曼：口吃是一个大问题。
Michael Kilgard: I have a friend down the street, he's got a serious stutter.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我在街上有一个朋友，他有严重的口吃。
Everyone's constantly asking, "What can we do?" We have a model, we think we understand, but everybody's different, right?
每个人都不断地问：“我们能做什么？”我们有一个模型，我们认为我们理解，但每个人都不同，对吧？
People stutter for different reasons, different times.
人们在不同时期因不同原因而口吃。
But clearly, there's something in the brain.
但很明显，脑子里有东西。
They'll tell you that.
他们会告诉你的。
You ask them that.
你问他们这个。
They don't think there's too much blood, too much bile, too much phlegm.
他们不认为有太多的血液、太多的胆汁、太多的痰。
That's not the problem.
那不是问题。
It's the wiring that's wrong.
就是接线错了
And I'm optimistic about that.
我对此持乐观态度。
That is something you can do something about, but it is not going to be easy.
这是你可以做点什么的事情，但这并不容易。
So, I would say, look for things that are closed-loop, that connect, that they're providing useful information that have sensors.
所以，我想说，寻找闭环的、相互连接的东西，它们提供带有传感器的有用信息。
Michael Kilgard: If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.
迈克尔·基尔加德：如果这听起来好得令人难以置信，那么它可能就是真的。
I think that's the sort of easiest way to say it.
我认为这是最简单的表达方式。
Electrically activating your skin, providing extra feedback, having a bar...
电激活你的皮肤，提供额外的反馈，有一个酒吧......
let's just take you're trying to learn to drive a standard, and you have a tachometer.
假设您正在尝试学习驾驶标准车，并且您有一个转速表。
Of course it's going to be easier if you can hear the sound of the engine revving.
当然，如果你能听到发动机转速的声音，那就更容易了。
That's more information.
这是更多信息。
I know what I'm doing when it stalls.
当它停滞时我知道我在做什么。
If I can give someone feedback, how fast was that ball spinning?
如果我可以给某人反馈，那个球旋转的速度有多快？
I've got a friend who owns a golf shop, and I mean, it's incredible, the tools they can give you of what your spin and slice is.
我有一个朋友拥有一家高尔夫商店，我的意思是，他们可以为您提供有关旋转和削球的工具，这真是令人难以置信。
That's really useful information.
这确实是有用的信息。
Michael Kilgard: If it's providing useful information about what you're doing, that just tends to be helpful.
Michael Kilgard：如果它提供了有关您正在做的事情的有用信息，那往往会有所帮助。
If it's not, it can be greatly distracting.
如果不是，它可能会极大地分散注意力。
And there are certain circumstances where adding extra stimulations, extra sounds, extra buzzers, extra whatever, whether you're trying a running app, or anything else, it could make you worse, because you're now focused on the running app instead of on the 'let's just run'.
在某些情况下，添加额外的刺激、额外的声音、额外的蜂鸣器、额外的任何东西，无论您是尝试运行应用程序还是其他任何东西，都可能会让您变得更糟，因为您现在专注于运行应用程序而不是“让我们跑步吧”。
So, I think people are trying to figure out when should we instrument it?
所以，我认为人们正在试图弄清楚我们什么时候应该使用它？
When should we add this extra stuff?
我们什么时候应该添加这些额外的东西？
When do you need the boost, and when do you not?
什么时候需要动力，什么时候不需要？
And I'm frankly pretty impressed by the consumer.
坦白说，消费者给我留下了深刻的印象。
Michael Kilgard: They tend to figure it out.
迈克尔·基尔加德：他们倾向于解决这个问题。
They tend to be pretty skeptical, as they should be.
他们往往非常怀疑，这是他们应该的。
And they tend to draw conclusions, "If it's working among a lot of my friends, let's try it." And they're pretty smart too.
他们倾向于得出结论：“如果它在我的很多朋友中有效，我们就尝试一下。”而且他们也很聪明。
There's no harm.
没有什么坏处。
Why not try it?
为什么不尝试一下呢？
They can tell what's dangerous and what's not.
他们可以分辨什么是危险的，什么不是。
"If it hurts, I probably shouldn't do that.
“如果受伤的话，我可能不应该这样做。
If it doesn't hurt, I'll try it for a while." But they tend to end up in the drawer.
如果不疼的话，我会尝试一段时间。”但它们往往最终会被放在抽屉里。
But even cochlear, or hearing aids, even hearing aids often end up in the drawer, because they're not...
但即使是人工耳蜗或助听器，甚至助听器也常常被放在抽屉里，因为它们不是......
They didn't get a really good one.
他们没有得到真正好的。
So, technology has to be really quite good to make it to that level of making a clinically detectable difference.
因此，技术必须非常好才能达到临床可检测到的差异的水平。
Andrew Huberman: Or habit-forming or addictive.
Andrew Huberman：或者是形成习惯或上瘾。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Because in the case of nicotine, I see a lot of people who start with one-three milligram pouch or gum per day, and then pretty soon they're up to six, and then they're half a canister.
Andrew Huberman：因为就尼古丁而言，我看到很多人一开始每天服用一袋三毫克的尼古丁或口香糖，然后很快就增加到六毫克，然后是半罐。
So, sometimes, in an attempt to get the boost in energy, or focus, or whatever, or neuroplasticity, people end up simply with a dependence on the tool, even if the tool didn't have much of an effect.
因此，有时，为了提高能量、注意力或神经可塑性，人们最终会简单地依赖该工具，即使该工具没有太大作用。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
We haven't talked about two things, just from evolutionary part.
我们还没有谈论两件事，只是从进化的角度来说。
Why do we get used to everything?
为什么我们会习惯一切？
Why if you take morphine, you just need more morphine?
为什么如果您服用吗啡，您只需要更多吗啡？
Why are we so good at that?
为什么我们这么擅长？
We live in lots of environments.
我们生活在很多环境中。
We're going to get exposed to a lot of things.
我们会接触到很多东西。
Our biology seems to have made us really pretty tough.
我们的生物学似乎让我们变得非常坚强。
We live in all kinds of environment.
我们生活在各种各样的环境中。
People live in Greenland, they live on...
人们生活在格陵兰岛，他们生活在......
I mean, it's amazing.
我的意思是，这太棒了。
It seems like in evolution, we were in lots of environments, and you might have been in an environment, where the only thing to eat was poppy flowers.
似乎在进化过程中，我们生活在很多环境中，而你可能生活在一个唯一能吃的东西就是罂粟花的环境中。
Michael Kilgard: And so, okay, I'm always surprised how not bad these things are.
迈克尔·基尔加德：所以，好吧，我总是很惊讶这些事情并不糟糕。
I mean, we had the crack epidemic, and it was clear that all these babies were going to be just a bunch of wandering zombies, and then, you know, they were impacted, but not nearly as bad as the worst doomsday scenario.
我的意思是，我们经历了强效流行病，很明显，所有这些婴儿都将成为一群游荡的僵尸，然后，你知道，他们受到了影响，但并不像最糟糕的世界末日场景那么糟糕。
So, I'm always telling parents, "Babies are tough.
所以，我总是告诉父母：“婴儿很坚强。
They're not as fragile as you might think." Things we do to ourselves, not as fragile, because evolution has prepared us for all these pushes and pulls, which is a big shock.
它们并不像你想象的那么脆弱。”我们对自己所做的事情并不那么脆弱，因为进化已经让我们为所有这些推拉做好了准备，这是一个巨大的冲击。
You don't want to get a bunch of traumatic brain injuries, but exposure to drugs, it's remarkable what we can tolerate and still be fine.
你不想遭受一系列脑外伤，但接触毒品，我们能够忍受并且仍然没事，这是很了不起的。
Michael Kilgard: There's an interesting idea that the psychologist first came up with, but we see this in neuroscience as well, the inverted U, where you got to get it just right, not too much.
Michael Kilgard：心理学家首先提出了一个有趣的想法，但我们在神经科学中也看到了这一点，即倒 U 形，你必须做到恰到好处，而不是太多。
So, more serotonin or norepinephrine enhances memories, but you give more, and now it degrades impairments.
因此，更多的血清素或去甲肾上腺素可以增强记忆力，但如果你给予更多，现在它会减轻损伤。
Why is that?
这是为什么？
Michael Kilgard: I've got a pet theory, no evidence for this whatsoever, that because we sometimes take an agent, let's say eat some berries or something like that, that then send us over the moon, we have all these mechanisms that then shut down and say, "Here are conditions where we don't want to change." Because rewiring your brain is dangerous, right?
迈克尔·基尔加德：我有一个宠物理论，但没有任何证据证明这一点，因为我们有时会采取一种代理人，比如说吃一些浆果或类似的东西，然后让我们飞越月球，我们拥有所有这些机制，然后关闭并说，“这是我们不想改变的条件。”因为重新连接你的大脑是危险的，对吗？
You might live through the food poisoning, but you might now have a rewired brain that would be bad.
你可能会经历食物中毒，但你现在的大脑可能会很糟糕。
Michael Kilgard: So, it seems like there's these mechanisms where you want to get, in our case, it's the alpha receptors, the norepinephrine, low-affinity receptors, the ones that are easiest to activate are the alpha receptors.
Michael Kilgard：所以，看起来你想要获得这些机制，在我们的例子中，是α受体、去甲肾上腺素、低亲和力受体，最容易激活的是α受体。
You want those, but you don't want the beta receptors.
你想要那些，但你不需要β受体。
And they're not very different.
而且它们并没有太大不同。
There's this sweet spot, this Goldilocks zone, and the biology's always pushing us to be right in that.
有一个最佳位置，这个金发姑娘区，而生物学总是推动我们在这一点上保持正确。
And everybody recognizes that.
每个人都认识到这一点。
Michael Kilgard: People who do meditation, mindfulness, they recognize this, trying to stay in this right sweet spot, which is back to that optimization we've talked a lot about.
迈克尔·基尔加德：进行冥想、正念的人们认识到这一点，试图保持在这个正确的最佳位置，这又回到了我们经常讨论的优化。
Why is that?
这是为什么？
That's how you're trying to figure out which is the most important thing.
这就是你试图找出最重要的事情的方式。
Not the max thing.
不是最大的事情。
That might be something that's just pathological and weird.
这可能是病态且奇怪的事情。
Not the minimum thing.
不是最起码的事情。
That's something you can just ignore.
这是你可以忽略的事情。
But this narrow range of things you're trying to pick out.
但你要挑选的东西范围很窄。
It's like shopping.
这就像购物。
You don't want to buy all the things in the grocery store.
你不想买杂货店里的所有东西。
I'm only looking for certain things.
我只是在寻找某些东西。
Andrew Huberman: Well, this is, essentially, if we're talking about psychedelics, I mean, you look at the counterculture of the '60s, and I grew up hearing a story, I was born in '75.
Andrew Huberman：嗯，本质上，如果我们谈论迷幻药，我的意思是，你看看 60 年代的反主流文化，我是听着一个故事长大的，我出生于 75 年。
I heard stories about people who took LSD, and stared at the sun, and burnt their retinas out.
我听说有人服用LSD并盯着太阳，结果视网膜被烧坏。
And I don't know if those stories are true or not.
我不知道那些故事是真是假。
There was a lot of fear-based messaging.
有很多基于恐惧的信息。
On the other hand, there were a number of people who took too many drugs.
另一方面，也有一些人服用了过量的药物。
And there were probably a number of people who should have taken more psychedelics.
可能有很多人应该服用更多迷幻药。
We could argue it both ways.
我们可以从两个方面来争论。
Michael Kilgard: Sure.
迈克尔·基尔加德：当然。
Andrew Huberman: I feel like now that we're sort of returning to this notion that plant-based compounds, in particular psilocybin, MDMA, MDMA is synthesized, it's not plant-based; could potentially be valuable therapeutics for psychiatry.
Andrew Huberman：我觉得现在我们有点回归植物性化合物的观念，特别是裸盖菇素、MDMA、MDMA 是合成的，它不是植物性的；它是合成的。可能是精神病学有价值的治疗方法。
The idea is not to give people just as much as they want, or to give them experiences.
我们的想法并不是要给人们提供他们想要的东西，或者给他们经验。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: The idea is that it's very targeted.
Andrew Huberman：这个想法非常有针对性。
It's dosage-targeted, it's therapeutically targeted, and so getting at that sweet spot.
它具有剂量目标、治疗目标，因此能够达到最佳效果。
I feel like what I keep hearing from you today is that there have been...
我觉得今天我不断从你那里听到的是……
By the way, I love your optimism.
顺便说一句，我喜欢你的乐观。
You're optimistic even about the mistakes we've made in the past, that they've led us to this place now that we need to embrace the complexity.
您甚至对我们过去所犯的错误也持乐观态度，因为它们将我们带到了现在的境地，而我们现在需要接受复杂性。
But the tools remain, in my mind, the same.
但在我看来，这些工具仍然是一样的。
Andrew Huberman: It's you've got, in no particular order, you've got devices to measure, and devices to alter neural circuits in the brain and body.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你有，没有特定的顺序，你有可以测量的设备，以及改变大脑和身体神经回路的设备。
You've got pharmacology, drive certain chemicals up, and certain chemicals down.
你有药理学，可以提高某些化学物质的含量，也可以降低某些化学物质的含量。
And you've got talking and thinking, reflecting.
你必须说话、思考、反思。
I mean, that's basically what we've got.
我的意思是，这基本上就是我们所拥有的。
That's the kit.
这就是套件。
And I can't imagine a world where there's an additional tool.
我无法想象一个有额外工具的世界。
Michael Kilgard: I would just mention gene therapy.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我只想提一下基因疗法。
I worked on genes and moved them around.
我研究基因并移动它们。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Good point.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好点。
Michael Kilgard: A long time ago, my mom asked me, "Are you sure we want that gene moved there?" Luckily we found out genes are moving all the time anyway.
迈克尔·基尔加德：很久以前，我妈妈问我，“你确定我们希望那个基因移到那里吗？”幸运的是，我们发现基因一直在移动。
That's not something we're doing, that's special.
这不是我们正在做的事情，而是很特别的事情。
But whether it's Duchenne's muscular dystrophy or Alzheimer's, if we have to do that, we'll do it.
但无论是杜氏肌营养不良症还是阿尔茨海默氏症，如果我们必须这样做，我们就会这样做。
I mean, if someone is going to lose all their memories, putting in a virus that's been genetically engineered, if that stops me from losing all my memories, and being a burden on society and my wife, I'll do that in a heartbeat.
我的意思是，如果有人要失去所有记忆，放入基因工程病毒，如果这能阻止我失去所有记忆，并成为社会和我妻子的负担，我会立刻这么做。
So, the toolbox we've created is just so rich.
所以，我们创建的工具箱非常丰富。
Michael Kilgard: I mean, we've got these places like Janelia Farms.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我的意思是，我们有像珍妮莉亚农场这样的地方。
They're just making up new things.
他们只是在编造新事物。
I mean, it's just such a 'Star Trek' world where you can't wait a week and someone hadn't invented some new thing.
我的意思是，这就是一个“星际迷航”的世界，你不能等一个星期，而有人还没有发明一些新东西。
But how to use them all together?
但如何一起使用它们呢？
That's the problem.
这就是问题所在。
You go look at a mechanic's shop, they don't have five tools.
你去看看机械店，他们没有五种工具。
They have 500 tools.
他们有 500 种工具。
I got a friend, there's so many drawers, I can't even pull open all the drawers to look.
我有一个朋友，抽屉太多了，我什至都无法拉开所有抽屉看。
He's just fixing one car.
他只是在修理一辆车。
How do they have 500 tools?
他们如何拥有 500 个工具？
And we're thinking we're going to need one, or two, or three, or four.
我们认为我们需要一个、两个、三个或四个。
So, I think you're right.
所以，我认为你是对的。
Michael Kilgard: Putting them in the right combinations, having that reflection, having that societal support, knowing when am I going to go into this, helping people make those decisions, it's complicated and hard.
迈克尔·基尔加德：将它们放在正确的组合中，进行反思，获得社会支持，知道我什么时候会进入这个领域，帮助人们做出这些决定，这是复杂而困难的。
We're getting better and better at it.
我们在这方面做得越来越好。
I really think we are.
我真的认为我们是。
Kid's got a dog phobia.
孩子有狗恐惧症。
Someone says, "Here's what we should do.
有人说：“这就是我们应该做的。
First, lock him away.
首先，把他锁起来。
Never show him the dog again." Okay.
永远不要再给他看那只狗了。”好的。
We tried that.
我们尝试过。
Didn't work.
没用。
And now your peer group's going to start telling you, "if you hide from it, that's not the way to get better from it." Whether it's abstinence, right?
现在你的同侪团体将开始告诉你，“如果你逃避它，那不是摆脱它的方法。”不管是禁欲吧？
That we had people in a lot of pain.
我们让人们承受很大的痛苦。
People didn't think that was a good idea.
人们认为这不是一个好主意。
Michael Kilgard: Doctors at UCSF and other places didn't think it was a good idea for people to be in pain, so they medicated them.
迈克尔·基尔加德：加州大学旧金山分校和其他地方的医生认为人们感到疼痛不是一个好主意，所以他们对他们进行了药物治疗。
No one knew there would be unintended consequences.
没有人知道这会产生意想不到的后果。
Certainly some people did, and there's lawsuits, and jail time, and all the rest for a few people.
当然有些人这样做了，而且有一些人面临诉讼、入狱，以及所有其他的事情。
But most people were just doing the right thing.
但大多数人只是在做正确的事。
In Catholic school, I also learned that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
在天主教学校，我还了解到通往地狱的道路是由善意铺成的。
We have to own that, right?
我们必须拥有它，对吗？
Thalidomide was a drug that we were going to prevent women from having nausea during first trimester.
沙利度胺是一种用于预防女性在妊娠早期出现恶心的药物。
We didn't know it was going to cause birth defects.
我们不知道它会导致出生缺陷。
But we learned that lesson.
但我们吸取了教训。
We processed it.
我们处理了它。
We took the humility from that.
我们从中获得了谦卑。
Michael Kilgard: You can't just do it the easy way out.
迈克尔·基尔加德：你不能只采取简单的方法。
The fact that it helps today doesn't mean you aren't going to later look back and regret it.
它今天有帮助的事实并不意味着您以后回顾时不会后悔。
And so, we don't make change fast in our society.
因此，我们的社会并没有快速改变。
Democracies don't make change fast.
民主国家不会很快做出改变。
They got all these built-in ways to change slow.
他们拥有所有这些内置的方法来缓慢改变。
So, we've got time to make sure it works.
所以，我们有时间确保它有效。
And I think it's frustrating to a lot of people who say, "My son went to war and needs a treatment.
我认为很多人会感到沮丧，他们说：“我的儿子参加了战争，需要治疗。
Give him what they need now." And there's all these people saying, "Hey, let's hold on.
给他他们现在需要的东西。”所有这些人都在说：“嘿，让我们坚持下去。
Let's wait and see." I'm comfortable with that, that we're waiting, taking our time.
让我们拭目以待吧。”我对此感到很满意，我们正在等待，慢慢来。
The process takes loads.
这个过程需要负载。
Michael Kilgard: It's frustrating to me, I'll be honest, how slow it is to do clinical trials.
Michael Kilgard：说实话，临床试验的速度有多慢，这让我很沮丧。
We're running a lot of trials with a lot of people I know with a lot of serious injuries.
我们正在对很多我认识的受过重伤的人进行大量试验。
And I can't move to the next thing, because the work on this one is so slow.
我无法继续下一件事，因为这件事的工作太慢了。
But better to be too slow than to take this lightly and think we're just going to do all these things, changing people's brains.
但最好是动作太慢，而不是掉以轻心，认为我们只是要做所有这些事情，改变人们的大脑。
I mean, this is literally who they are.
我的意思是，这就是他们的真实身份。
This is where their personality resides.
这就是他们的个性所在。
This is their experiences.
这是他们的经历。
So, I've been very pleased that the federal government's doing a great job of just saying, "Let's try all the things." Like you said, they're not against gene therapy.
所以，我很高兴联邦政府做得很好，只是说：“让我们尝试所有的事情。”正如你所说，他们并不反对基因疗法。
They're not against big pharma.
他们并不反对大型制药公司。
They're not in big pharma's pocket.
它们不在大型制药公司的口袋里。
Michael Kilgard: They're just saying, "Look, what's going to work?" We'll know when it works.
迈克尔·基尔加德：他们只是说，“看看，什么行得通？”我们会知道什么时候有效。
We'll all know when it works.
当它起作用时我们都会知道。
And for the things that it has worked, phenylketonuria and, you know, cochlear implants.
对于它有效的事情，苯丙酮尿症和人工耳蜗。
The government paid a ton of money on cochlear implants.
政府在人工耳蜗上花费了大量资金。
You just do the next thing, next thing, next thing, next thing, and now there's multiple companies that sell those, and you can have that.
你只需做下一件事，下一件事，下一件事，下一件事，现在有多家公司出售这些产品，你可以拥有它们。
They tried that for the retina, and so far, correct me if I'm wrong, there's still not an awesome...
他们在视网膜上进行了尝试，到目前为止，如果我错了，请纠正我，仍然没有一个很棒的......
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Kilgard: One of my first students is at Henry Ford working on the retinal prosthesis.
迈克尔·基尔加德：我的第一批学生之一在亨利·福特研究视网膜假体。
It's still hard.
还是很难。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Michael Kilgard: Why?
迈克尔·基尔加德：为什么？
Andrew Huberman: They'll get there.
Andrew Huberman：他们会到达那里。
Michael Kilgard: They'll get there.
迈克尔·基尔加德：他们会到达那里。
Andrew Huberman: E.J.
安德鲁·休伯曼：E.J.
Chichilnisky, Dan Palanker.
奇奇尔尼斯基，丹·帕兰克。
There are other people working on this.
还有其他人正在研究这个问题。
Neuralink's working on it as well.
Neuralink 也在研究这个问题。
Artificial retina, or maybe bypassing the retina and, quote unquote, 'curing blindness.' It's going to happen, because you know what you need.
人工视网膜，或者可能绕过视网膜，直接引用“治愈失明”。这将会发生，因为你知道你需要什么。
Michael Kilgard: Don't give up because it's hard.
迈克尔·基尔加德：不要放弃，因为这很难。
Just because it's hard doesn't mean we give up.
仅仅因为困难并不意味着我们放弃。
People are blind.
人们是盲目的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Andrew Huberman: You know what inputs you need.
Andrew Huberman：你知道你需要什么投入。
You know what's needed in the brain.
你知道大脑需要什么。
I think; also, I'm encouraged by the fact that some of the smartest people in neuroscience and engineering are working on it.
我认为;此外，令我感到鼓舞的是，神经科学和工程学领域一些最聪明的人正在研究这个问题。
Michael Kilgard: Yeah.
迈克尔·基尔加德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Certainly at Neuralink, but also in academia.
Andrew Huberman：当然是在 Neuralink，但在学术界也是如此。
I mean, these are some of the best minds on the planet.
我的意思是，这些都是地球上最优秀的人才。
These are really, like, the astronauts of science, and in lots of fields, but certainly in visual restoration.
他们确实是科学宇航员，涉及很多领域，但当然是视觉修复领域。
Michael Kilgard: And the miniaturization, the wireless coding; I mean, all the problems that we had back in the day, they're sort of just evaporated.
Michael Kilgard：还有小型化、无线编码；我的意思是，我们以前遇到的所有问题都消失了。
The chips get smaller and smaller.
芯片变得越来越小。
The power is better and better.
力量越来越好。
So, I too am optimistic.
所以，我也很乐观。
If you were blind today, you'd wish it was ready yesterday.
如果你今天是瞎子，你会希望它昨天就准备好了。
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Michael Kilgard: But it's going to take investment, and it's a hard problem.
迈克尔·基尔加德：但这需要投资，而且这是一个难题。
We don't know how long it's going to take, whether it's Alzheimer's or, you know, schizophrenia.
我们不知道这需要多长时间，无论是阿尔茨海默氏症还是精神分裂症。
We just keep investing, and our country keeps giving it to the entire world for free.
我们不断投资，我们的国家不断将其免费提供给全世界。
Secrets of the entire genome, we just gave it away.
整个基因组的秘密，我们刚刚泄露了。
Who does that?
谁这样做？
That's just what we do.
这就是我们所做的。
So, I think that kind of thing, when I see something like that, we can monetize it, we can patent it, we can say, "You can't use that gene.
所以，我认为这种事情，当我看到类似的东西时，我们可以将其货币化，我们可以为其申请专利，我们可以说，“你不能使用那个基因。
Well, I invented that gene." We said, "No, we're not going to do it that way." So, I just think we've learned some good lessons about how to just innovate and share.
好吧，我发明了那个基因。”我们说：“不，我们不会那样做。”所以，我认为我们已经学到了一些关于如何创新和分享的好教训。
And other countries are learning.
其他国家也在学习。
Let's do it together.
让我们一起来做吧。
Michael Kilgard: It's way better together than alone.
迈克尔·基尔加德：在一起比单独相处要好得多。
So, I'm optimistic, this brings us together.
所以，我很乐观，这让我们走到了一起。
I'm optimistic that the problems are not unsolvable.
我乐观地认为这些问题并非无法解决。
And once we understand that they're synapses, right, they're just connections, and that those things evolve to change.
一旦我们明白它们是突触，对吧，它们只是连接，并且这些东西会进化而改变。
We're not making them change.
我们不会让他们改变。
I'm not Frankensteining it.
我不是弗兰肯斯坦。
I'm not hacking it.
我没有破解它。
That's how it was built to do.
这就是它的构建目的。
If we need gene therapy, drugs, devices, counseling, therapy, if we need 5 or 10 things, that's how my normal life was.
如果我们需要基因治疗、药物、设备、咨询、治疗，如果我们需要 5 或 10 样东西，那就是我的正常生活。
My childhood was a lot like a lot of factors.
我的童年有很多因素。
Michael Kilgard: Diet, nutrition, exercise, all those things were shaping who I am.
迈克尔·基尔加德：饮食、营养、锻炼，所有这些都塑造了我。
And we hoped it was simple.
我们希望这很简单。
It wasn't simple.
这并不简单。
Would've been nice.
那就太好了。
And a few things were.
有几件事是。
But the vast majority now are complicated, and it seems like that humility, and that working with patients and letting them understand what are they doing, no one's trying to control anyone's brain.
但现在绝大多数情况都很复杂，似乎是谦虚的态度，与患者合作并让他们了解自己在做什么，没有人试图控制任何人的大脑。
No one is trying to put in chips and make you do things you don't want to do.
没有人试图投入筹码并让你做你不想做的事情。
That is not the future of this.
那不是这个的未来。
This is not that scary thing.
这并不是那么可怕的事情。
Find serious problems and see if we can help.
找到严重的问题，看看我们是否可以提供帮助。
Andrew Huberman: Well, I love your optimism, and I'm encouraged by what you've done already.
Andrew Huberman：嗯，我喜欢你的乐观态度，你所做的一切也让我深受鼓舞。
And I should've known that if I sat down with the author of one of my favorite papers in science, one of my top 10, maybe even my top 5, that it would be a discussion of the sort we just had.
我应该知道，如果我与我最喜欢的科学论文之一（我的前 10 篇，甚至是我的前 5 篇）的作者坐下来，这将是我们刚刚进行的那种讨论。
I've learned a ton from you.
我从你身上学到了很多。
You know, I went into this knowing a thing or two about plasticity.
你知道，我对可塑性略知一二。
I have some training there, indeed.
我确实在那里接受过一些培训。
But I learned so much, and I'm thinking about it completely differently now, to be honest.
但我学到了很多东西，说实话，我现在对它的看法完全不同了。
Andrew Huberman: This notion of needing focus and friction, the reflection piece that what mental rehearsal will and won't do, the value of a small device like this, for patients that are struggling with any number of different conditions, when paired with the appropriate training and rewiring stimuli.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：这种需要专注和摩擦的概念，反思什么是心理排练会做什么和不会做什么，像这样的小设备的价值，对于那些在各种不同条件下挣扎的患者，当与适当的训练和重新布线刺激相结合时。
You've also reframed the way I think about drugs that can modify neuromodulators, like nicotine.
您还重新构建了我对可以改变神经调节剂（如尼古丁）的药物的看法。
And, of course, everyone should make a choice that's best for them.
当然，每个人都应该做出最适合自己的选择。
But, you know, I could go on and on, but I think it's evident to anyone that's listened to this conversation now that you're really out there to help us, and to build things that are going to help humanity.
但是，你知道，我可以继续说下去，但我认为对于任何听过这次谈话的人来说，很明显，你真的在那里帮助我们，并建立了能够帮助人类的东西。
And you're doing that.
而你正在这样做。
I'm very excited about the recent paper, getting paralyzed people to access more movement.
我对最近的一篇论文感到非常兴奋，这篇论文让瘫痪的人能够进行更多的活动。
Once again, I'll provide links to those, and other resources in the show note captions.
我将再次在显示注释标题中提供这些资源和其他资源的链接。
Andrew Huberman: I know you have some open clinical trials as well.
Andrew Huberman：我知道你们也有一些开放的临床试验。
Maybe we can direct people to the possibility that they could be subjects, if that's appropriate.
如果合适的话，也许我们可以引导人们认识到他们可能成为受试者的可能性。
I want to thank you for the work that you've done, that you're doing, and that you continue to do, and for coming here today to contribute to public science education.
我要感谢你们所做的、正在做的和继续做的工作，感谢你们今天来到这里为公共科学教育做出贡献。
It's been wonderful for me, and I know for everyone listening.
这对我来说太棒了，我知道每个听我讲话的人都知道。
So, thank you ever so much.
所以，非常感谢你。
Michael Kilgard: Thanks for helping get this complicated information out to people.
迈克尔·基尔加德：感谢您帮助向人们传达这些复杂的信息。
Really appreciate it.
真的很感激。
Andrew Huberman: Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Michael Kilgard.
Andrew Huberman：感谢您参加今天与 Michael Kilgard 博士的讨论。
To learn more about his work, please see the links in the show note captions.
要了解有关他的作品的更多信息，请参阅演出注释标题中的链接。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的关注按钮来关注播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。
And you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.
您现在可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
Andrew Huberman: If you have questions for me, or comments about the podcast, or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab Podcast, please put those in the comment section on YouTube.
Andrew Huberman：如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客有意见，或者希望我在 Huberman 实验室播客中考虑嘉宾或主题，请将这些内容放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这本书是我花了五年多时间编写的，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验。
Andrew Huberman: And it covers protocols for everything from sleep, to exercise, to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation.
Andrew Huberman：它涵盖了从睡眠、锻炼到压力控制、与注意力和动机相关的所有协议。
And, of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
当然，我还为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by pre-sale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body."
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。
Andrew Huberman: And if you're not already following me on social media, I am hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
Andrew Huberman：如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 hubermanlab。
So, that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab Podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab Podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。
Again, it's hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
再说一遍，所有社交媒体平台上都是 hubermanlab。
Andrew Huberman: And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries, as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.
Andrew Huberman：如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要，以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available completely zero cost.
所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。
Andrew Huberman: You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to newsletter, and enter your email.
Andrew Huberman：您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的菜单选项卡，向下滚动到时事通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件即可。
And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Michael Kilgard.
再次感谢您参加今天与 Michael Kilgard 博士的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。