How to Overcome Social Anxiety | Dr. Nick Epley
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Social anxiety is something we really can help people with.
社交焦虑是我们真正可以帮助人们解决的问题。
Essentially, the strategy is very simple.
本质上，该策略非常简单。
If you are afraid of talking with a stranger or having a deep conversation, the way to get over that is not to simulate it or to imagine.
如果你害怕与陌生人交谈或进行深入的交谈，克服这种恐惧的方法不是模拟它或想象。
It's not like you get up and you give a pretend speech.
这并不是说你站起来就发表假装演讲。
That's what psychologists were doing for years.
这就是心理学家多年来一直在做的事情。
It doesn't work because it's still pretending.
它不起作用，因为它仍然是假装的。
It has to be real.
它必须是真实的。
You send people out in the world and to do the thing for real.
你派人到世界各地去做真正的事情。
You're worried about getting rejected, go out and start asking people for help, and you'll learn that your fear is misplaced, that you get accepted more often than you might guess.
你担心被拒绝，走出去开始向人们寻求帮助，你会发现你的恐惧是多余的，你被接受的次数比你想象的要多。
Exposing people to that thing that they're anxious of when the belief is misplaced, and with social anxiety, it is usually wildly misplaced.
当信念错误时，就会让人们接触到他们所焦虑的事情，而在社交焦虑中，信念通常会严重错误。
That's what we find over and over again, is a mistaken barrier to connecting with other people.
这就是我们一次又一次发现的，这是与其他人联系的错误障碍。
That's how you ease that social anxiety and get rid of it.
这就是缓解并摆脱社交焦虑的方法。
Not because you dull your anxiety so much.
不是因为你减轻了你的焦虑。
It's because you change your beliefs about what other people are like.
这是因为你改变了对其他人的看法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. Nick Epley.
今天我的客人是尼克·艾普利博士。
Dr. Nick Epley is a behavioral scientist at the University of Chicago and an expert researcher on the science of social connection.
尼克·艾普利博士是芝加哥大学的行为科学家，也是社会关系科学的专家研究员。
What's different about today's conversation in the context of social connection is that it doesn't just center on improving relationships with friends or family or coworkers.
今天在社交联系背景下的对话的不同之处在于，它不仅仅集中于改善与朋友、家人或同事的关系。
We do talk about that, but we also talk about the smaller, everyday conversations that we have with people that we don't know so well, and the positive impact that that can have on mental and physical health.
我们确实谈论这一点，但我们也谈论我们与不太熟悉的人进行的较小的日常对话，以及这可能对身心健康产生的积极影响。
Now, I want to be clear.
现在，我想澄清一下。
We're not talking about engaging in small talk for small talk's sake.
我们并不是为了闲聊而闲聊。
We're talking about taking opportunities to connect with people once or several times per day, and the tremendous benefits that can have for people's mental and physical health, including yours.
我们谈论的是每天利用机会与人接触一次或几次，以及这对人们（包括您自己）的身心健康带来的巨大好处。
We also talk a lot about the assumptions that we tend to make about other people, both in real life and online, and how those actually match up with reality.
我们还谈论了很多我们在现实生活和网上对其他人做出的假设，以及这些假设如何与现实相匹配。
We also talk about Nick Epley himself, because his life strongly has informed his research.
我们还谈论尼克·埃普利本人，因为他的生活极大地影响了他的研究。
We talk about his biological and his adopted children, raising a child with additional needs, and the incredible joy and growth those choices have brought him and his family by virtue of the sorts of social connections that they've brought.
我们谈论他的亲生孩子和他收养的孩子，抚养一个有额外需要的孩子，以及这些选择通过他们带来的各种社会关系给他和他的家人带来了令人难以置信的快乐和成长。
I must say, today's conversation went a lot of places that I did not anticipate, and it certainly inspired me to look differently at everyday interactions as far from trivial, and in fact, key to the fabric of social connection and our mental and physical health.
我必须说，今天的谈话涉及了很多我没有预料到的地方，这无疑激发了我以不同的方式看待日常互动，远离琐碎的事情，事实上，它们是社会联系结构以及我们身心健康的关键。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Nick Epley.
现在我与尼克·艾普利博士进行讨论。
Dr. Nick Epley, welcome.
尼克·艾普利博士，欢迎。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Thank you so much for having me.
非常感谢你邀请我。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We make a lot of assumptions about other people, and in my case, because I have a new puppy, about animals.
我们对其他人做出了很多假设，就我而言，因为我有一只新小狗，所以我们对动物做出了很多假设。
We're always thinking that we know what other beings are thinking.
我们总是认为我们知道其他人在想什么。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But as you pointed out, and as a colleague of mine in neurosciences, Dr. Karl Deisseroth, has pointed out, most of the time we don't even know what we're thinking.
但正如你所指出的，以及我的神经科学同事 Karl Deisseroth 博士所指出的，大多数时候我们甚至不知道自己在想什么。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's stuff going on in there, but-
里面有事情发生，但是——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
we're not that good at thinking, "Oh, that last thought was a complete sentence that means blank." That's not how the human mind works.
我们不太擅长思考，“哦，最后一个想法是一个完整的句子，意味着空白。”人类的思维不是这样运作的。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So usually, when we hear the word anthropomorphism, we're talking about humans making assumptions about other animals.
因此，通常，当我们听到拟人化这个词时，我们谈论的是人类对其他动物做出的假设。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But humans are animals.
但人类是动物。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We just happen to be the curators of the planet.
我们只是碰巧是这个星球的管理者。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So why and how do we anthropomorphize about other people, and how does it hurt us, and how does it help us?
那么，我们为什么以及如何将他人拟人化，这对我们有何伤害，又如何帮助我们呢？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So I think the way to think about anthropomorphism is that what we are doing is we're trying to understand what's going on within another agent, essentially.
所以我认为思考拟人化的方法是，我们正在做的是我们试图理解另一个代理内部正在发生的事情，本质上。
And so anything that acts independently, right?
所以任何独立行动的东西，对吗？
You got a ball rolling across the table.
你有一个球滚过桌子。
If something else bumps into it and it moves in perfect deflection off of it, you don't need anything to explain why that ball moved as it did.
如果有其他东西撞到它并且它以完美的偏转方式移动，那么您不需要任何东西来解释为什么该球会这样移动。
But if this ball is coming across the table, another one hits it, and it just keeps going or it goes some other direction, well, then it seems like there's something going on inside that thing that might be driving it, right?
但是，如果这个球穿过桌子，另一个球击中它，它会继续前进或朝其他方向移动，那么看起来那个东西内部正在发生一些事情，可能会驱动它，对吧？
And that thing that's inside that ball might be a mind.
那个球里面的东西可能就是一个思想。
Right?
正确的？
Might be a set of thoughts or beliefs or attitudes, some kind of psychology that's pushing it.
可能是一系列想法、信念或态度，某种推动它的心理学。
At least that's the way we interpret what an independent agent might be doing.
至少这是我们解释独立代理人可能做的事情的方式。
We do this when we think about other people, right?
当我们想到其他人时，我们就会这样做，对吗？
You're nodding your head now.
你现在正在点头。
I think you're thinking about something, right?
我想你正在思考一些事情，对吗？
You move this way or that.
你这样或那样移动。
You wanted to do this thing or that thing.
你想做这件事或那件事。
We do that same kind of mind reading, right, with non-human agents, animals, gods sometimes, the planet, even ourselves, right?
我们对非人类主体、动物、有时是神、地球，甚至我们自己也进行同样的读心术，对吧？
We reflect on ourselves.
我们反思自己。
We have experience, at least, with having certain mental states come to mind, and we use that experience as a guide to what's going on in other people, too.
至少，我们有过脑海中浮现出某些心理状态的经验，并且我们也用这种经验来指导其他人正在发生的事情。
That kind of anthropomorphism, that kind of mind reading, right, where we infer others' thoughts or beliefs or attitudes, that's helpful to us for at least two reasons.
这种拟人化，那种读心术，我们推断他人的想法、信仰或态度，这对我们有帮助，至少有两个原因。
One is it gives me some sense of why you're doing what you're doing now.
一是它让我对你为什么要做现在所做的事情有了一些了解。
It allows me to understand what you're doing right now.
它让我了解你现在在做什么。
Are you trying to be kind?
你想表现得友善吗？
You trying to be aggressive?
你想表现得咄咄逼人吗？
Are you trying to be friendly?
你想表现得友好吗？
But it also is pretty good at allowing me to predict what you're likely to do next.
但它也非常适合让我预测你下一步可能会做什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
So if I think you feel hungry, well, you're going to go try to eat something.
所以如果我认为你感到饿了，那么你就会去尝试吃点东西。
If I think you don't like me very well, you're going to behave a particular way towards me.
如果我认为你不太喜欢我，你就会对我采取特定的行为方式。
So this kind of mental state inference, this kind of mind reading, serves us pretty well for getting around in a social world.
因此，这种心理状态推断、这种读心术对于我们在社交世界中的出行非常有帮助。
Don't always get it right, but in general, it's better than not doing it at all.
并不总是做对，但总的来说，这比根本不做要好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So as we make assumptions about others and their intentions and their past-
因此，当我们对他人、他们的意图以及他们的过去做出假设时——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
choices in some cases, right, like if somebody hits somebody else, we make an assumption about the certain things might have led up to that.
在某些情况下的选择，对吧，比如如果有人打了别人，我们就会对某些可能导致这种情况的事情做出假设。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes, right.
是的，没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are we mainly paying attention to behavior?
我们主要关注的是行为吗？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And/or are we paying attention to What they seem to be paying attention to.
和/或我们是否关注他们似乎正在关注的内容。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So-called theory of mind.
所谓心智理论。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So it depends a lot on what kind of environment we're in.
所以这在很大程度上取决于我们所处的环境。
We think about the minds of others in lots and lots of different contexts.
我们在很多不同的背景下思考他人的想法。
My wife right now is back home in Illinois.
我的妻子现在回到了伊利诺伊州的家中。
I can think about what she might want for dinner, or what she's feeling at any given time.
我可以考虑她晚餐想吃什么，或者她在任何特定时间的感受。
We can think about people when they're not present.
当人们不在场时，我们可以考虑他们。
We can think about strangers, people we know nothing about.
我们可以思考陌生人、我们一无所知的人。
I write a book.
我写一本书。
I'm trying to think about how will people understand this book, right?
我在思考人们会如何理解这本书，对吗？
These are all cases where there's not somebody in front of us at all.
这些都是我们前面根本没有人的情况。
And when we're doing that, particularly with strangers, people we know nothing about, things we know nothing about, then the one thing we have at our disposal is ourselves.
当我们这样做时，尤其是面对陌生人、我们一无所知的人、我们一无所知的事情时，我们唯一可以支配的就是我们自己。
We can use our own minds.
我们可以用自己的头脑。
So if I walk into a classroom and I think it's kind of cold in here, well, I can assume that other people will think it's cold too.
因此，如果我走进教室，我觉得这里有点冷，那么，我可以假设其他人也会觉得这里很冷。
I'm using myself as a guide.
我以自己为指导。
Once I know a little more maybe about you, I learn that you're a PhD from Stanford, I learn that somebody is an athlete or whatever.
一旦我对你有了更多的了解，我就会知道你是斯坦福大学的博士，我会知道某人是一名运动员或其他什么。
I learn something about you.
我了解到一些关于你的事情。
You're a doctor or you're a lawyer.
你是一名医生或者你是一名律师。
Then I can use that information, my beliefs about groups of people as a guide.
然后我可以使用这些信息，我对人群的信念作为指导。
That's stereotyping.
这就是刻板印象。
And stereotypes contain a fair bit of accuracy to them.
刻板印象对他们来说包含相当多的准确性。
If I know that you're a Democrat or a Republican, I can make some reasonable inferences about other thoughts you might have, other beliefs you might have.
如果我知道你是民主党人还是共和党人，我就可以对你可能有的其他想法、你可能有的其他信念做出一些合理的推断。
Not perfect, but better than chance guessing.
并不完美，但比偶然猜测要好。
And then once I see you, like what we're doing right now, if I can see you, then I'm watching your behavior, and then behavior dominates.
一旦我看到你，就像我们现在正在做的那样，如果我能看到你，那么我就会观察你的行为，然后行为就会占主导地位。
Behavior, though, is tricky.
然而，行为却很棘手。
I'm watching you.
我在看着你。
You could have two people kissing.
可以让两个人接吻。
They seem delightfully in love.
他们看起来非常相爱。
They seem just so nice together.
他们在一起看起来真好。
And you can make one set of inferences when you see that happening based on that.
当你看到基于此的情况发生时，你可以做出一组推论。
You can infer what's going on behind that based on what you're seeing.
您可以根据您所看到的情况推断出其背后发生的情况。
And when we can see the behavior in front of us, that's then what we're paying most attention to.
当我们看到眼前的行为时，这就是我们最关注的。
But each of these different mechanisms, egocentrism, stereotyping, and behaviorism, when we might think about working backwards from your behavior, they all give us some accuracy, but they also create some error.
但是，每一种不同的机制，自我中心主义，刻板印象和行为主义，当我们考虑从你的行为中逆推时，它们都会给我们带来一些准确性，但它们也会产生一些错误。
Egocentrism creates egocentric biases.
自我中心主义会产生以自我为中心的偏见。
I assume that you think more like I do than you actually do.
我认为你的想法比你的实际想法更像我的想法。
Stereotyping tends to create a different set of mistakes.
刻板印象往往会造成一系列不同的错误。
I tend to think that groups are more distinct and different from each other than they actually are because stereotypes are about the defining features of groups, which tends to exaggerate the differences between groups.
我倾向于认为群体之间比实际情况更加独特和不同，因为刻板印象是关于群体的定义特征，这往往会夸大群体之间的差异。
And when it comes to behavior, I tend to assume a simpler, more simplistic mind behind that behavior than actually exists.
当谈到行为时，我倾向于假设该行为背后的想法比实际存在的更简单。
Psychologists refer to this as the correspondence bias.
心理学家将此称为对应偏差。
I tend to infer an intention or set of beliefs or attitudes that corresponds with your behavior as I see it.
我倾向于推断与我所看到的你的行为相对应的意图或一套信念或态度。
So if I see you hit somebody, I might assume you are an aggressive person.
所以如果我看到你打别人，我可能会认为你是一个有攻击性的人。
That's how I interpret right away.
我马上就是这么解释的。
Had I known it was in self-defense, then I would interpret it very differently.
如果我知道这是出于自卫，那么我的解释就会大不相同。
But we tend to leap to mental states or intentions from behavior.
但我们倾向于从行为跳到精神状态或意图。
Sometimes that can get us into trouble when the relationship between intentions or thoughts and behavior is a little complicated.
有时，当意图或思想与行为之间的关系有点复杂时，这会给我们带来麻烦。
So each of those gets us some accuracy, but each of them also creates some error.
因此，每一个都为我们带来了一定的准确性，但它们也都产生了一些错误。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you are willing, I'd like to return to the example you gave at the beginning of a ball rolling on a table and another ball striking it-
如果你愿意的话，我想回到你开头给出的例子，一个球在桌子上滚动，另一个球击中它——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or not.
或不。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In the second example you gave, the ball simply takes off on a different trajectory, and you said that we're going to make some assumption that the ball has something like a mind.
在你给出的第二个例子中，球只是沿着不同的轨迹起飞，你说我们将做出一些假设，即球有类似思想的东西。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Some agency.
一些机构。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Something controlling its decisions.
有东西控制着它的决定。
What I'm about to say reflects a strong bias, which is that I've long been interested in the visual system-
我要说的反映了一个强烈的偏见，那就是我长期以来对视觉系统很感兴趣——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of non-human and human primates-
非人类和人类灵长类动物-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Uh-huh
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because we are so visual, and the eyes are two pieces of the brain.
因为我们的视觉能力很强，而眼睛是大脑的两部分。
They're the only pieces of the brain in healthy individuals that are outside the cranial vault, and they give us a lot of information.
它们是健康个体大脑中唯一位于颅顶之外的部分，它们为我们提供了大量信息。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think people know that-
我想人们都知道——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but I don't think they appreciate just how much information they give us.
但我认为他们并不欣赏他们为我们提供的大量信息。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not just pupil size and whether or not our gaze is locked with theirs.
不仅仅是瞳孔大小以及我们的目光是否与他们的目光锁定。
All that's true too, but if I could just alter your experiment for a second.
这些都是真的，但如果我能稍微改变一下你的实验就好了。
Let's say that first ball had eyes.
假设第一个球有眼睛。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's rolling forward-
而且还在滚滚向前——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but then the eyes shift to the left-
但随后眼睛转向左边——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and then the ball goes to the left.
然后球向左移动。
Now I have additional information.
现在我有更多信息。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have a window, literally, into the brain where I can say, "What's over there that might have motivated that decision?"
从字面上看，我有一个进入大脑的窗口，我可以在这里说：“那里是什么可能促使我做出这个决定？”
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think with humans, we do this.
我认为对于人类来说，我们就是这样做的。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
For sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
If somebody's going down the street just swinging their arms wildly and hitting people, we think, "This person's out of control.
如果有人在街上疯狂地挥舞手臂并打人，我们会想：“这个人失控了。
They're crazy." Whereas if they see somebody, then they orient their gaze toward them, now we start making all sorts of assumptions about the operations of that mind.
他们疯了。”然而，如果他们看到某人，就会将目光转向他们，而现在我们开始对该思维的运作做出各种假设。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And in my worldview, no pun intended, the eyes are the best source of information about intent, about goals, et cetera.
在我的世界观中，没有双关语的意思，眼睛是有关意图、目标等信息的最佳来源。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So limiting the conversation to conditions where we can see the other person and what they see-
因此，将对话限制在我们可以看到对方以及他们所看到的情况下-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
are there any examples of our judgments about other people's thoughts and behavior, et cetera, improving by virtue of that?
有没有例子表明我们对其他人的思想和行为等的判断会因此而改善？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Oh, for sure.
哦，当然。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the eyes do provide-
所以眼睛确实提供了——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Oh, the eyes have a lot
哦，眼睛有很多东西
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
valid information.
有效信息。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Oh, absolutely.
哦，绝对是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
The voice also contains an awful lot.
声音里还蕴含着很多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
So that's the other thing we spend a lot of time studying.
这是我们花费大量时间研究的另一件事。
But we are the most socially sophisticated primate species on the planet.
但我们是地球上社交能力最强的灵长类动物。
We have a brain uniquely equipped for connecting with the minds of others, and that means that we are hypersensitive to certain things.
我们有一个独特的大脑，可以与他人的思想联系，这意味着我们对某些事情非常敏感。
The eyes are one of them.
眼睛就是其中之一。
There's this great paper in 2008 on the cultural intelligence hypothesis, it's a science paper, where they compared, they tried to assess what is it that makes humans sort of unique on this planet.
2008 年有一篇关于文化智力假说的伟大论文，这是一篇科学论文，他们进行了比较，试图评估是什么让人类在这个星球上变得独一无二。
And they compared a little over 100 2-year-old toddlers.
他们对 100 多名 2 岁幼儿进行了比较。
Imagine running this experiment, if you would.
如果你愿意的话，想象一下进行这个实验。
A little over 100 2-year-old toddlers.
超过 100 名 2 岁幼儿。
This was done at the Max Planck Institute in Germany, one of the Max Plancks.
这是在德国马克斯·普朗克研究所（马克斯·普朗克研究所之一）完成的。
Over 100 chimpanzees, and then just for good measure, another 36 orangutans who apparently had nothing better to do.
超过 100 只黑猩猩，另外还有 36 只猩猩，它们显然没有更好的事情可做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What a fun experiment.
多么有趣的实验啊。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Isn't it crazy?
是不是很疯狂？
Yeah.
是的。
It's crazy.
太疯狂了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Exhausting, but-
筋疲力尽，但是——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Man, I can't...
伙计，我不能...
Yeah.
是的。
I would like to know the background of details of this, how it was actually done and how long it took.
我想知道这个细节的背景、具体是如何完成的以及花了多长时间。
But what they did essentially is ran Each of these groups through two different kinds of IQ tests you might think of them as One was an IQ test involving physical objects.
但他们所做的本质上是让每个小组都进行两种不同类型的智商测试，你可能会认为其中一种是涉及物理对象的智商测试。
So things like tracking where a reward was placed under a shell game or using a tool to solve some kind of problem.
例如跟踪空壳游戏中奖励的放置位置或使用工具来解决某种问题。
Psychologists once believed, biologists once believed that tool use was what made humans unique until Jane Goodall watched the chimpanzees using twigs to get termites out of a termite mound.
心理学家曾经相信，生物学家曾经相信工具的使用使人类独一无二，直到简·古道尔（Jane Goodall）看到黑猩猩使用树枝将白蚁从白蚁丘中救出来。
On the physical IQ test problems, the human toddlers, the adult chimps, and the orangutans performed equally well.
在身体智商测试问题上，人类幼儿、成年黑猩猩和猩猩的表现同样出色。
There wasn't a difference.
没有什么区别。
It's not reasoning about physical things in space that make us unique.
并不是对太空中的物理事物进行推理才使我们变得独一无二。
The other group of IQ problems were social problems, where it required reasoning about the mind of another person.
另一组智商问题是社会问题，需要推理另一个人的想法。
And this involved doing things like tracking where someone's eyes are looking in order to monitor what somebody is thinking, because we tend to look at things we're thinking about and think about things we're looking at.
这涉及到跟踪某人的眼睛在看哪里，以监视某人在想什么，因为我们倾向于看我们正在思考的事情并思考我们正在看的事情。
If I want to know what's on your mind, what's governing your attention, I want to be really good at tracking your eyes.
如果我想知道你在想什么，什么在控制你的注意力，我想非常擅长追踪你的眼睛。
And we are amazing at this as human beings.
作为人类，我们对此感到惊讶。
I can tell whether you're looking at me right now or looking at my right ear from this far away without any trouble.
我可以毫不费力地分辨出你现在是在看我，还是在这么远的地方看我的右耳。
I can tell from 50 feet away whether you're looking at me or looking at 10 feet above me.
我可以从 50 英尺外看出你是在看我还是在看我上方 10 英尺。
We're amazingly good at this.
我们在这方面非常擅长。
Super sensitive to this.
对此超级敏感。
I couldn't calculate the angle on a roof if you gave me a month and an arm load of protractors to do it, but I can detect the angle in your eyes in an instant.
如果你给我一个月的时间和一臂量角器，我无法计算出屋顶上的角度，但我可以立即检测出你眼中的角度。
Also involve things like being able to understand somebody's intentions from their actions.
还包括能够从某人的行为中了解他们的意图之类的事情。
So if I reach out for this glass of water and I miss it, you can infer I'm thirsty and I want a drink.
因此，如果我伸手去拿这杯水却没有喝到，你就可以推断我渴了，想要喝一杯。
You could hand me the glass, Nick, if I wanted a drink.
如果我想喝一杯，尼克，你可以把杯子递给我。
Because you could read my mind, essentially.
因为本质上你可以读懂我的想法。
You could infer my thoughts.
你可以猜出我的想法。
When they tested the two-year-old toddlers, the chimps, and the orangutans in these social IQ tests, that's where the two-year-old toddlers were shining.
当他们在社交智商测试中对两岁幼儿、黑猩猩和猩猩进行测试时，两岁幼儿的闪光点就在于此。
That's where we were crushing the competition on those social IQ problems.
这就是我们在社交智商问题上击败竞争对手的地方。
You can do this in front of a chimpanzee all day long, and they will do nothing for you.
你可以整天在黑猩猩面前这样做，它们不会为你做任何事。
Nothing for you.
没有什么适合你的。
I do that in front of you, and you can hand me the glass of water super easily.
我在你面前这样做，你就可以非常轻松地将一杯水递给我。
So yes, the eyes give us a lot, and we are extremely sensitive to all of those social cues that might convey what's on the mind of another person, because it allows me to anticipate what you're doing before you do it.
所以，是的，眼睛给了我们很多东西，而且我们对所有可能传达另一个人的想法的社交暗示都非常敏感，因为它让我能够在你做之前预测你在做什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In today's financial landscape of constant market shifts and chaotic news, it's easy to feel uncertain about how to save and invest your money.
在当今市场不断变化、新闻混乱的金融环境中，人们很容易对如何储蓄和投资感到不确定。
Wealthfront is the solution that helps you take control of your money while managing risk.
Wealthfront 是帮助您在管理风险的同时掌控资金的解决方案。
For nearly a decade, I've trusted Wealthfront to navigate this volatility.
近十年来，我一直相信 Wealthfront 能够应对这种波动。
With the Wealthfront cash account, I can earn 3.3% annual percentage yield, or APY, on my cash from program banks.
通过 Wealthfront 现金账户，我可以从计划银行获得 3.3% 的年化收益率 (APY)。
And I know my money is growing until I'm ready to spend it or invest it.
我知道我的钱会不断增长，直到我准备好花钱或投资为止。
One of the features I love about Wealthfront is that I have access to instant, no-fee withdrawals to eligible accounts 24/7.
我喜欢 Wealthfront 的功能之一是我可以 24/7 即时、免费提款到符合条件的账户。
That means I can move my money where I need it without waiting.
这意味着我可以将资金转移到需要的地方，而无需等待。
And when I'm ready to transition from saving to investing, Wealthfront lets me seamlessly transfer my funds into one of their expert-built portfolios.
当我准备好从储蓄过渡到投资时，Wealthfront 可以让我无缝地将资金转移到他们专家构建的投资组合之一。
For a limited time, Wealthfront is offering the Huberman Lab audience an exclusive 0.75% APY boost over the base rate for three months, meaning you can get up to 4.05% variable APY on up to $150,000 in deposits.
在有限的时间内，Wealthfront 为 Huberman Lab 受众提供为期三个月的独家年利率比基本利率高 0.75% 的优惠，这意味着您最多可在 150,000 美元的存款中获得高达 4.05% 的可变年利率。
Over one million people already trust Wealthfront to save more, earn more, and build long-term wealth with confidence.
超过一百万人已经相信 Wealthfront 能够充满信心地储蓄更多、赚取更多并建立长期财富。
If you'd like to try Wealthfront, you can go to wealthfront.com/huberman to receive the boost offer and start earning 4.05% variable APY today.
如果您想尝试Wealthfront，您可以访问wealthfront.com/huberman 获取提升优惠，并立即开始赚取4.05% 的可变年利率。
That's wealthfront.com/huberman to get started.
请从 Fortunefront.com/huberman 开始。
This is a paid testimonial of Wealthfront.
这是 Wealthfront 的付费推荐。
Client experiences will vary.
客户体验会有所不同。
Wealthfront brokerage is not a bank.
Wealthfront 经纪公司不是银行。
The base APY is as of January 30th, 2026, and subject to change.
基本 APY 截至 2026 年 1 月 30 日，可能会发生变化。
For more information, please see the episode description.
欲了解更多信息，请参阅剧集描述。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Eight Sleep.
今天的节目也是八觉给我们带来的。
Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity.
August Sleep 生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。
One of the best ways to ensure you get a great night's sleep is to make sure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct.
确保您睡个好觉的最佳方法之一是确保睡眠环境的温度正确。
And that's because in order to fall asleep and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees.
这是因为为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的体温实际上必须下降约一到三度。
And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees.
为了醒来时感觉神清气爽、精力充沛，您的体温实际上必须升高约一到三度。
Eight Sleep automatically regulates the temperature of your bed throughout the night according to your unique needs.
八睡眠会根据您的独特需求自动调节整个晚上的床温。
I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for nearly five years now, and it has completely transformed and improved the quality of my sleep.
我已经睡在八睡眠床垫罩上近五年了，它彻底改变并改善了我的睡眠质量。
The latest Eight Sleep model is the Pod 5.
最新的八睡眠型号是 Pod 5。
This is what I'm now sleeping on, and I absolutely love it.
这就是我现在睡觉的地方，我非常喜欢它。
It has so many incredible features.
它有很多令人难以置信的功能。
For instance, the Pod 5 has a feature called Autopilot, which is an AI engine that learns your sleep patterns and then adjusts the temperature of your sleeping environment across different sleep stages.
例如，Pod 5有一个名为Autopilot的功能，这是一个人工智能引擎，可以学习你的睡眠模式，然后在不同的睡眠阶段调整你的睡眠环境温度。
It'll even elevate your head if you're snoring, and it makes other shifts to optimize your sleep.
如果您打鼾，它甚至会抬高您的头部，并进行其他转换以优化您的睡眠。
If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, go to eightsleep.com/huberman to get up to $350 off the new Pod 5.
如果您想尝试八睡眠，请访问八睡眠.com/huberman，新款 Pod 5 最高可享受 350 美元优惠。
Eight Sleep ships to many countries worldwide, including Mexico and the UAE.
八号睡眠船运往世界各地的许多国家，包括墨西哥和阿联酋。
Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $350.
同样，访问八睡眠.com/huberman 最多可节省 350 美元。
And you mentioned voice.
你提到了声音。
I'm going to make an assumption, I'm sure it's wrong, or at least partially wrong, that voice offers a lot of information about autonomic tone, how stressed or how relaxed somebody is.
我要做一个假设，我确信这是错误的，或者至少是部分错误的，声音提供了很多关于自主语气、某人的压力有多大或有多放松的信息。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'd be curious to know, A, if that's true, what else it conveys, and also how much prior exposure to voice matters.
我很想知道，A，如果这是真的，它还传达了什么，以及之前接触声音的重要性。
Today's the first time I've met you.
今天是我第一次见到你。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know what your voice normally sounds like in this context.
我不知道在这种情况下你的声音通常听起来是什么样的。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I'm just operating off what I've got.
所以我只是用我所拥有的来运作。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what's in voice?
那么声音里有什么呢？
What's not in voice?
什么是语音中没有的？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And what are we aware of?
我们知道什么？
What are we not aware of?
我们不知道什么？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah, so there are lots of things contained in the voice because it is very closely connected to your mind.
是的，所以声音中包含了很多东西，因为它与你的思想密切相关。
You notice that your eyes are.
你注意到你的眼睛是。
Your eyes are close.
你的眼睛很闭。
But your voice is also very closely connected to your online conscious experience.
但你的声音也与你的在线意识体验密切相关。
You are speaking while you are thinking.
你一边说话一边思考。
And as you're having thoughts, your voice can reflect authentically what's going on in your mind.
当您有想法时，您的声音可以真实地反映您的想法。
So when I speed up, you can tell I'm kind of excited about something.
所以当我加速时，你可以看出我对某件事感到有点兴奋。
When my voice varies in pitch, you can tell if I'm enthusiastic or not, or kind of sad about something.
当我的声音音调变化时，你可以看出我是否热情，或者对某事感到悲伤。
You can pick up a lot about what's actually going on in the mind by listening to a person's voice.
通过倾听一个人的声音，你可以了解到很多关于他内心真实想法的信息。
And there are a couple of things that we've studied in our research.
我们在研究中研究了一些事情。
One is voice just contains a lot of information that allows us to understand other people better.
一是语音包含大量信息，使我们能够更好地理解他人。
Right?
正确的？
So if you compare typing to somebody versus talking to them, the voice allows you to determine things like intentionality, to differentiate when you're telling a joke or being sarcastic than when you're not.
因此，如果您将与某人打字和与他们交谈进行比较，声音可以让您确定诸如意图之类的事情，从而区分您何时在讲笑话或讽刺，什么时候没有。
Right?
正确的？
"Well, typed is..." "This is so funny." Right?
“嗯，打字的是……”“这太有趣了。”正确的？
We think when we're sending off an email to somebody.
当我们向某人发送电子邮件时，我们会思考。
Seems funny to us because we know this is meant to be a joke.
对我们来说这似乎很有趣，因为我们知道这是一个笑话。
Person on the other end doesn't realize the comment about this person's aunt or brother or whatever was meant to be a joke and they're all offended, right?
另一端的人没有意识到关于这个人的阿姨或兄弟的评论或任何本来是开玩笑的东西，他们都被冒犯了，对吗？
But if you say this in your voice, sarcasm is crystal clear.
但如果你用你的声音说出这句话，讽刺就很明显了。
Interestingly, what we find, and this is because of egocentrism in part, we're not always so sensitive to how our own communication is interpreted by another person.
有趣的是，我们发现，这在一定程度上是由于自我中心主义，我们并不总是对别人如何解释我们自己的沟通如此敏感。
Because we know what we're thinking when we're conveying something, we tend to think we'll be understood equally well whether we're typing or talking, but of course, on the receiving end, it varies a lot.
因为我们知道在传达某些内容时我们在想什么，所以我们倾向于认为无论我们是打字还是说话，我们都会同样被理解，但当然，在接收端，情况有很大差异。
So voice contains a lot of information and allows us to understand what somebody's saying better.
因此，语音包含大量信息，使我们能够更好地理解某人所说的内容。
But what we also find, which I think is, at least from my perspective, also interesting, is that the voice also conveys the presence of mind.
但我们还发现，至少从我的角度来看，我认为这也很有趣，那就是声音也传达了思想的存在。
I don't have access to your thinking, to your reasoning, to what's going on between your ears.
我无法了解你的想法、你的推理、你耳朵之间发生的事情。
I can only watch from the outside, right?
我只能在外面看，对吗？
And I get cues.
我得到了线索。
I can see your visual gaze, but I can also hear you.
我可以看到你的目光，但我也可以听到你的声音。
The voice contains a lot of cues to the presence of mind.
声音中包含很多关于心神安定的暗示。
When you're really thinking hard about something, your voice slows down and you deliberate.
当你真正认真思考某件事时，你的声音会放慢，你会变得深思熟虑。
And that variability in the pace of your voice kind of tells me that your mind is alive.
你声音节奏的变化告诉我你的思想是活跃的。
Just like I can tell that you're biologically alive because you're moving, your voice also moves, and it tells me you got a lively mind.
就像我可以说你在生物学上是活的，因为你在移动，你的声音也在移动，这告诉我你有一个活跃的头脑。
It conveys the presence of emotion.
它传达了情感的存在。
It can convey the presence of thinking.
它可以传达思维的存在。
So when we have partisans, for instance.
例如，当我们有党派时。
We did this with Juliana Schroeder, who was one of my amazing PhD students from years ago.
我们和朱莉安娜·施罗德一起做了这件事，她是我几年前最出色的博士生之一。
She's now on the faculty at Berkeley at Haas.
她现在在伯克利哈斯大学任教。
We had people, this was on the eve of the 2016 election between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton.
我们有人，那是 2016 年唐纳德·特朗普和希拉里·克林顿大选前夕。
We had people who were voting for Trump or Clinton say why they were voting for the candidate they were voting for, and they gave a verbal pitch.
我们让投票给特朗普或克林顿的人说出他们为什么投票给他们所投票的候选人，并进行了口头宣传。
And we could get a few different cues from this.
我们可以从中得到一些不同的线索。
We could get an audio recorded clip, so we could see and hear the person.
我们可以获得一段录音片段，这样我们就可以看到并听到这个人的声音。
We could just get their voice.
我们可以听到他们的声音。
And we could also strip out their voice and just see the content of their text, right, to see the words they were saying.
我们还可以去掉他们的声音，只看到他们的文字内容，对吧，看看他们说的话。
They also wrote a pitch about an explanation for why they were voting for this particular candidate.
他们还写了一篇文章，解释为什么他们投票给这个特定的候选人。
Okay?
好的？
What we then did is we had people watch and listen, listen, read the transcript, or read the written explanation and say, essentially, how mindful is this person?
然后我们所做的就是让人们观看、聆听、聆听、阅读文字记录，或者阅读书面解释，然后说，本质上，这个人有多专心？
How thoughtful are they?
他们的心思有多周到？
How thoughtful, how intelligent, how rational, how capable of experiencing emotions are they?
他们有多么深思熟虑、多么聪明、多么理性、多么有能力体验情感？
Essentially, they're asking, are you a mindful, intelligent person, or are you kind of just like a mindless idiot?
本质上，他们问的是，你是一个有思想、聪明的人，还是有点像一个没有思想的白痴？
Are you human-like, or are you kind of not human-like, more like a rock?
你是像人一样，还是不像人，更像一块石头？
And what we found was that when people could hear what the person had to say, either while also seeing them or just with their voice, they rated the person, particularly when they disagreed with them, when there was a person on the other side, as more thoughtful, more intelligent, more rational.
我们发现，当人们能够听到对方所说的话时，无论是同时看到他们还是仅仅通过他们的声音，他们都会评价这个人，尤其是当他们不同意他们的观点时，当对方有一个人时，他们会认为这个人更有思想、更聪明、更理性。
This tendency to dehumanize the other side, to think of them as mindless idiots, was dramatically reduced when you actually heard what the other person has to say.
当你真正听到对方所说的话时，这种非人化对方、将他们视为无意识白痴的倾向就会大大减少。
So I think the voice, along with the eyes, along with eye gaze, but the voice gives us a lot of information, allows us to understand what's on somebody's mind, and it also allows us something deeper.
所以我认为声音，连同眼睛，还有眼神，但声音给了我们很多信息，让我们了解某人的想法，也让我们了解更深层次的东西。
It allows me to tell you that you've got a mind, that you have one.
它让我可以告诉你，你有一个想法，你有一个想法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's very interesting.
这很有趣。
The vision piece I'm familiar with for reasons I stated before.
由于我之前说过的原因，我对这个愿景作品很熟悉。
The physical behavior piece makes a lot of sense.
身体行为部分很有意义。
The voice piece as a reflection of an active mind is something I really haven't considered.
声音片段作为活跃思维的反映是我真正没有考虑过的。
We'll hear sometimes that the content of people's words is less informative than-
有时我们会听到人们言语的内容不如-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the timbre of their voice-
他们声音的音色——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or something like that.
或类似的东西。
I don't know that I completely believe that.
我不知道我是否完全相信这一点。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think that's a '90s, it's like an '80s, '90s pop psychology-ism.
我认为那是 90 年代，就像 80 年代、90 年代的流行心理学主义。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
That is a highly stylized experimental result.
这是一个高度程式化的实验结果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Right?
对吗？
So you will sometimes hear in this pop psych world that 80% of what's communicated is communicated through paralinguistic.
所以你有时会在这个流行心理学世界中听到这样的话：80% 的交流内容是通过副语言进行交流的。
That obviously is not true.
这显然不是真的。
I'm not going to be able to tell you about my book just by using the tone of my voice.
我无法仅通过语气向您介绍我的书。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
So that is that certain-
所以这是肯定的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Words matter.
言语很重要。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
The words certainly do matter.
这些话确实很重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
But above and beyond that, there are other things that matter in a person's voice that at least we find people aren't so sensitive to.
但除此之外，一个人的声音还有其他一些重要的因素，至少我们发现人们对这些因素并不那么敏感。
So when we ask, for instance, when we ask our MBA students to give an elevator pitch, as Juliana and I did in one of our experiments.
因此，当我们提出要求时，例如，当我们要求 MBA 学生进行电梯演讲时，正如朱莉安娜和我在一项实验中所做的那样。
Give an elevator pitch for their desired job, the job they want most, right?
为他们想要的工作、他们最想要的工作进行电梯推销，对吧？
Why should this company hire you?
这家公司为什么要雇用你？
They can give it with their voice, so we do the audio and visual.
他们可以用他们的声音来表达，所以我们做音频和视频。
We do just the audio.
我们只做音频。
We pull out the transcript, just get the words.
我们拿出文字记录，只得到文字。
Or they type their pitch.
或者他们输入他们的音调。
We then have people watch and listen, listen, or read these pitches and say, "How intelligent does this person seem to be?
然后我们让人们观看、聆听、聆听或阅读这些推介并说：“这个人看起来有多聪明？
How hireable does this person seem to be?" And we've done this both with people who imagine working for companies and also with Fortune 500 recruiters, too.
这个人看起来有多值得雇用？”我们已经对那些想为公司工作的人以及财富 500 强的招聘人员做到了这一点。
The person seems more intelligent, more rational, more thoughtful, more hireable when you hear what they have to say.
当你听到他们所说的话时，他们看起来更聪明、更理性、更体贴、更值得雇用。
And yet the MBA students themselves think they'll be judged equally on those two.
然而 MBA 学生自己却认为他们会在这两者上得到同等的评价。
They're not.
他们不是。
And when we ask a separate group of people, "If you wanted to communicate with somebody in a way that would make you seem most intelligent Overwhelmingly, people say, "I'd rather write."
当我们问另一群人时，“如果你想以一种让你看起来最聪明的方式与某人交流，人们会说，”我宁愿写作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
And the thinking behind that, I think, is that people think they can edit and such.
我认为这背后的想法是人们认为他们可以编辑等等。
But what they're missing is that the sound of your voice conveys a lot more.
但他们缺少的是你的声音传达的信息要多得多。
It conveys the fact that you have a mind.
它传达了一个事实：你有思想。
Because I can't see it, and I can't read it in your dead text, right?
因为我看不到，也读不到你的死文，对吧？
Your dead text has none of the paralinguistic cues or features.
你的死文本没有任何副语言线索或特征。
Really talented writers, novelists can do this.
真正有才华的作家、小说家都能做到这一点。
But mostly, your text is dead.
但大多数情况下，你的文字已经死了。
It doesn't have intonation.
它没有语调。
It doesn't change its pitch.
它不会改变音调。
It doesn't show me thinking while it's actually happening, and people don't seem to realize that.
它并没有让我在实际发生的时候思考，人们似乎也没有意识到这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What does this reveal to us about AI?
这向我们揭示了人工智能的什么？
Because people are spending more and more time with AI on AI.
因为人们在人工智能上花费越来越多的时间。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And what comes back is text.
返回的是文本。
There are versions of it.
有它的版本。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And soon, I imagine there will be elaborated versions-
我想很快就会有详细的版本——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of it with-
其中与-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
avatars or even video-
头像甚至视频-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah, for sure
是的，当然
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
AI.
人工智能。
Are you generally enthusiastic about what that could bring in terms of better understanding other humans?
您是否热衷于这样做可以更好地理解其他人？
Because I could imagine a world where I can't reach you, but I could go on AI and say, "Hey, Nick." I would just do it directly.
因为我可以想象一个我无法联系到你的世界，但我可以通过人工智能说：“嘿，尼克。”我会直接这样做。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"Hey, Nick.
“嘿，尼克。
I'm really curious.
我真的很好奇。
I'm going to the Midwest, where you're from, and I'm super interested in culturally, what's the best way that I could connect with someone around this, this, and this?"
我要去中西部，你来自那里，我对文化非常感兴趣，我可以与围绕这个、这个、这个的人建立联系的最佳方式是什么？”
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Given the content on the internet-
鉴于互联网上的内容——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the LLM should be able to have a video of you deliver to me what you would say.
法学硕士应该能够通过视频向我传达您要说的话。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We're pretty close to it.
我们已经非常接近了。
That can be better than a bullet point list?
这比要点列表更好吗？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
It will, yeah.
会的，是的。
So people will find it more believable, I think.
所以我认为人们会觉得它更可信。
But a lot of the things that people turn to AI for now are for facts, for actual information, for text.
但人们现在求助于人工智能的很多东西都是为了事实、实际信息、文本。
But I do think increasingly it's going to be used for social stuff.
但我确实认为它将越来越多地用于社交活动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
People feel lonely, disconnected.
人们感到孤独、孤立。
They need a friend.
他们需要一个朋友。
I'm friends with Liz Dunn, who's a fabulous psychologist at the University of British Columbia, and she told me that they're starting to do research about allowing people to practice having conversations with AI before they actually have a conversation with another person, like a conflict.
我的朋友莉兹·邓恩 (Liz Dunn) 是不列颠哥伦比亚大学的一位出色的心理学家，她告诉我，他们正在开始研究，让人们在与另一个人真正进行对话（例如冲突）之前练习与人工智能对话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
I can see ways in which AI could be used to do lots of things.
我可以看到人工智能可以用来做很多事情的方法。
I can also see obvious problems with it.
我也可以看到它的明显问题。
If I'm connecting with the AI and I'm not connecting with other humans, I can see problems with it.
如果我与人工智能连接但不与其他人连接，我就能看到它的问题。
But I think in terms of the presence versus absence of voice, I do think voice will allow us, to the extent that it's good and perfect, sounds like a human voice.
但我认为就声音的存在与不存在而言，我确实认为声音将让我们在良好和完美的程度上听起来像人类的声音。
My prediction would be that you can trust it more when you hear what it has to say, as long as it mimics, really well, a human voice.
我的预测是，当你听到它所说的内容时，只要它能很好地模仿人的声音，你就可以更加信任它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Because you'd anthropomorphize it just like you do another person.
因为你会把它拟人化，就像你对待另一个人一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't want to spend too much time on politics, but I can't help but ask this next question.
我不想在政治上花太多时间，但我忍不住要问下一个问题。
Way back when Bush was president-
早在布什担任总统时——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
second one.
第二个。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I recall there was a lot of discussion around people who voted for him saying, "He's the kind of guy you'd want to have a beer with."
我记得投票给他的人进行了很多讨论，他们说：“他是那种你想和他一起喝啤酒的人。”
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which I interpreted as there's something about his style of speech-
我将其解读为他的讲话风格有些问题——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which was very everyday.
这很日常。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we don't have to talk about current candidates and politicians.
我们不必谈论当前的候选人和政客。
Not to avoid it.
不是为了避免它。
I don't tap dance around anything these days.
这些天我不再围绕任何东西跳踢踏舞。
But I think that nowadays we have a lot of access to people talking on video.
但我认为现在我们有很多机会通过视频与人们交谈。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When you and I were growing up, I think we're more or less the same age.
当你和我一起成长的时候，我想我们的年龄差不多。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There would be a presidential address, or there'd be a campaign, and you'd hear from people, but it was very limited.
会有总统讲话，或者有一场竞选活动，你会听到人们的声音，但数量非常有限。
You didn't get so much-
你并没有得到那么多——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
exposure to people.
暴露于人。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So now we have more and more information-
所以现在我们有越来越多的信息——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
about voice, about behavior, about decision-making, depending on the resolution, where their eyes are going.
关于声音、关于行为、关于决策，这取决于分辨率和他们的视线。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you think that we're getting better at assessing public figures, or are we getting worse at assessing public figures?
您认为我们在评估公众人物方面是变得更好了，还是在评估公众人物方面变得更差了？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
That's a good question.
这是个好问题。
I think that'll take me too far out on a limb.
我想这会让我太过分了。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't know the answer to that.
我不知道答案。
There's so much information that we have-
我们掌握的信息太多了——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
...
...
now.
现在。
But the other thing, too, is that the way we evaluate other people, and this is central to a lot of our research, other people are ambiguous.
但另一件事是，我们评价他人的方式是模棱两可的，这也是我们许多研究的核心。
They're not crystal clear.
它们并不清晰。
That same thing that I say to you that I mean to be a joke can sound really hostile or violent to another person.
我对你说的“我想开个玩笑”这句话听起来对另一个人来说确实充满敌意或暴力。
It can sound really awful and be taken as offensive.
这听起来真的很糟糕并且被认为是无礼的。
So I think that's what makes my work as a psychologist so interesting.
所以我认为这就是我作为心理学家的工作如此有趣的原因。
In the early 1900s, when social psychology, my field in cognitive psychology, started, it came out of basically biology and vision sciences and basic sensory perception, thinking that we could understand human thinking and measure it, measure our judgments about each other in the same way that we measure how people evaluate hot and cold and stuff like that.
1900 年代初，当社会心理学（我的认知心理学领域）开始时，它基本上源于生物学、视觉科学和基本感官知觉，认为我们可以理解人类思维并对其进行测量，以与我们测量人们如何评估热和冷之类的方式相同的方式来测量我们对彼此的判断。
But it turns out that other people are very ambiguous.
但事实证明，其他人的态度很暧昧。
It's not always so crystal clear.
它并不总是那么清晰。
And so two people with a different set of beliefs or attitudes or perspectives on the situation can look at the very same stimulus and see totally different things.
因此，对情况有不同信念、态度或观点的两个人可能会看到相同的刺激并看到完全不同的事物。
A lot of our judgment is not happening out there coming to us.
我们的很多判断并不是外面发生的。
It's happening in here interpreting what we're seeing.
它正在发生在这里解释我们所看到的。
And in the world of politics, everyone who's listening to this podcast knows just how ambiguous things are.
在政治世界中，每个听这个播客的人都知道事情有多么模棱两可。
Somebody says something, and the right will interpret it this way, the left will interpret it that way.
有人说了些什么，右派会这样解释，左派也会这样解释。
It's known as my side bias.
这就是我的侧面偏见。
Even the very same stimulus.
即使是完全相同的刺激。
So there is this sense that if we get more and more and more information, then we'll understand people better.
所以有一种感觉，如果我们获得越来越多的信息，那么我们就会更好地了解人们。
That's not necessarily true.
这不一定是真的。
If we come into these perceptions, into viewing these things with very different starting points or very different perspectives to begin with.
如果我们开始产生这些看法，以非常不同的起点或非常不同的视角来看待这些事物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You've worked a lot on this notion of under-socialization.
您在社会化不足的概念上做了很多工作。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If I may, I'd like to invert it for today's conversation and talk a little bit less through the lens of how bad it is if we're under-socialized and explore instead how good it is if we do socialize.
如果可以的话，我想在今天的谈话中颠倒过来，少谈论一下如果我们社交不足的话会有多糟糕，而去探讨如果我们进行社交会有多好。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not because I have to make things positive-
不是因为我必须让事情变得积极-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but because ultimately, I think actions to socialize more are going to be useful.
但因为最终，我认为更多社交活动将会是有用的。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm tempted to set this up as an experiment
我很想把它作为一个实验
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Ah.
啊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So as with the example of the balls you gave before
就像你之前给出的球的例子一样
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the most deprived condition, a human is in total isolation.
在最贫困的情况下，人处于完全孤立的状态。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
So, another condition is they can, let's just say, text with somebody else
所以，另一个条件是他们可以，比方说，与其他人发短信
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but they can't see them, they've never seen them.
但他们看不到它们，他们从未见过它们。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Then we can ratchet that up.
然后我们可以加大力度。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They've seen them before, they can make a phone call, they can do video chat, they're in person.
他们以前见过他们，他们可以打电话，他们可以进行视频聊天，他们是面对面的。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I can see a million excellent arguments for why in-person interaction is good
我可以看到一百万个精彩的论据来解释为什么面对面的互动是好的
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but what is the evidence that the other forms of social interaction are good also?
但有什么证据表明其他形式的社交互动也有好处呢？
We hear so much about how they're bad
我们听到很多关于他们有多糟糕的事情
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but we also hear about the isolation crisis.
但我们也听说了孤立危机。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so we've sort of, I've lumped-
所以我们有点，我已经混为一谈了-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the more deprived versions of socialization in with isolation.
更贫困的社会化版本是与孤立相结合的。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm not sure that I accept that.
我不确定我是否接受这一点。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not trying to counter your work.
我并不是想反对你的工作。
I don't know enough about it to do it-
我对此了解不够，无法做到这一点-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I'm not qualified to anyway.
反正我没资格。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But is texting with a friend healthy?
但和朋友发短信健康吗？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As opposed to spending time alone?
而不是花时间独处？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
For sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
For sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In-person time clearly being the best.
面对面的时间显然是最好的。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
It's a little better, although going from no contact to some contact is the big leap.
虽然从不接触到有接触是一个很大的飞跃，但还是好一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Tell me more.
告诉我更多。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
So being isolated, so spending a day alone is pretty miserable.
所以孤立无援，独自一人度过一天是非常痛苦的。
So when psychologists look at this, this comes from a famous paper by Danny Kahneman and Angus Deaton, both Nobel Prize winners in economics, neither of them economists, that looked at the Gallup daily wellbeing poll.
因此，当心理学家看待这一问题时，这来自丹尼·卡尼曼和安格斯·迪顿的一篇著名论文，他们都是诺贝尔经济学奖获得者，但都不是经济学家，该论文研究了盖洛普每日福祉民意调查。
And they call people up every day and they ask them how you're feeling today, in a number of different ways.
他们每天都会打电话给人们，以多种不同的方式询问他们今天感觉如何。
They actually ask you about the day before.
他们实际上会问你前一天的情况。
"Yesterday.
“昨天。
Did you enjoy yesterday?
昨天玩得开心吗？
Did you feel enjoyment yesterday?
昨天你感觉很享受吗？
Did you smile yesterday?
昨天你笑了吗？
Did you experience sadness yesterday?
昨天你经历过悲伤吗？
Did you experience stress yesterday?" So they ask about these different measures of wellbeing.
你昨天有压力吗？”因此他们询问了这些不同的幸福衡量标准。
They also ask about all kinds of other things, like how much money you're making, are you religious or not, they know how much insurance you have, whether you're surveyed on a weekend or a weekday.
他们还会询问各种其他问题，例如您赚了多少钱，您是否有宗教信仰，他们知道您有多少保险，无论您是在周末还是工作日接受调查。
They also ask you, "Did you spend yesterday entirely alone or not?" And when they do that, you can compare the effects of things like social isolation, being alone versus not, against these other things.
他们还会问你：“你昨天是一个人度过的吗？”当他们这样做时，你可以将社会孤立、独处与独处等因素与其他因素的影响进行比较。
It turns out the difference between spending yesterday alone versus somebody else, the difference in your wellbeing on these other measures, is about seven times bigger than being relatively high or low on their income measure, which is about a $60,000 difference between these two groups.
事实证明，昨天独自消费与其他人消费之间的差异，即您在其他衡量标准上的幸福感差异，大约比收入相对较高或较低的衡量标准大七倍，这两组之间的差异约为 60,000 美元。
That being alone is bad.
独自一人是不好的。
That's a bad day.
这真是糟糕的一天。
Okay?
好吧？
And having connections with other people improves it pretty dramatically.
与其他人建立联系可以显着改善这一点。
Above and beyond that, it does matter.
除此之外，它确实很重要。
It is better, those interactions, but now you're adding good things to what was already somewhat a good thing.
这些互动更好，但现在你在已经是好事的基础上添加了好东西。
Plus, we also need to unpack a little bit what these different media do.
另外，我们还需要稍微了解一下这些不同媒体的作用。
They're good for different things, and we don't always use them in the ways that are right, but I think, in many ways, we do.
它们有不同的用途，我们并不总是以正确的方式使用它们，但我认为，在很多方面，我们都是这样做的。
Like if I send you a text or I send my wife a text.
就像我给你发短信或者我给我妻子发短信一样。
She's back in Illinois today.
她今天回到伊利诺伊州。
We've been married for nearly 30 years.
我们结婚已经快30年了。
It'll be 30 years in August this year.
今年8月就满30周年了。
We know a ton about each other.
我们彼此了解很多。
I can send her a heart when I'm feeling love, and I'm going to send her to let her know that, and that's going to lift her up a little bit.
当我感受到爱的时候，我可以寄给她一颗心，我会寄给她，让她知道这一点，这会让她精神振奋一点。
That's going to feel good.
那感觉会很好。
We already have a relationship.
我们已经建立了关系。
That's establishing just some contact.
这只是建立一些联系。
Texting is great for that.
发短信对此非常有用。
It can allow us to stay in contact with somebody.
它可以让我们与某人保持联系。
It is not good for building a relationship necessarily over time.
随着时间的推移，这不一定有利于建立关系。
Like if we're going to spend a half hour typing to each other, it's not a good way to spend that half hour.
就像如果我们要花半个小时互相打字一样，这不是一个花半个小时的好方法。
I'd be much better at picking the phone and talking to you to help establish that relationship.
我会更好地接电话并与您交谈以帮助建立这种关系。
But absolutely, the ability to reach out and connect with other people frequently, as texting is used out in the world, can allow us to stay connected.
但绝对的是，随着短信在世界上的广泛使用，经常与其他人联系和联系的能力可以让我们保持联系。
Now, if that's the only thing we're doing, if we're not actually spending time developing more meaningful relationships with people, that's not going to be as good as it could be.
现在，如果这是我们唯一做的事情，如果我们没有真正花时间与人们建立更有意义的关系，那么事情就不会那么好。
But you started this by asking about sociality more generally, and why is being social good for us?
但您首先询问了更广泛的社交问题，以及为什么社交对我们有好处？
The fact of the matter is, even with our imperfections in thinking about the minds of others, we are highly social.
事实上，即使我们在考虑他人想法方面存在缺陷，我们仍然具有高度的社交性。
Just the ability to think in the level of sophistication that we do about the minds of other people shows how important sociality is for us, and you see the importance of sociality just almost everywhere you look.
仅仅像我们对他人思想的复杂程度进行思考的能力就表明了社交性对我们来说有多么重要，而且你几乎在任何地方都能看到社交性的重要性。
The way our brain is organized.
我们大脑的组织方式。
So our neocortex is massive relative to the rest of our brain, compared to our nearest primate relatives, the chimpanzees.
因此，与我们最近的灵长类亲戚黑猩猩相比，我们的新皮质相对于大脑的其他部分来说是巨大的。
A lot of that stuff is good for social stuff.
其中很多东西对于社交都有好处。
For theory of mind use, for keeping track of who knows what and who you should trust and who you should avoid.
用于心理理论的使用，用于跟踪谁知道什么以及您应该信任谁以及您应该避免谁。
Living in large social groups is complicated.
生活在大型社会群体中是很复杂的。
And the size of our brain reflects that complication.
我们大脑的大小反映了这种复杂性。
If you look across primate species, the size of the neocortex relative to the rest of the brain is correlated with, this is work on the social brain hypothesis.
如果你观察灵长类动物，就会发现新皮质相对于大脑其他部分的大小是相关的，这是关于社会大脑假说的研究。
The size of the neocortex relative to the rest of the brain is correlated with the social complexity of the group the primate species lives in.
新皮质相对于大脑其他部分的大小与灵长类动物所生活的群体的社会复杂性相关。
Our brains are built to be social.
我们的大脑生来就是为了社交而生的。
Also, for most of human history, being alone and isolated is a death sentence.
而且，在人类历史的大部分时间里，孤独和孤立就等于被判了死刑。
You can't live on your own.
你不能独自生活。
We depend on each other for survival.
我们相互依赖才能生存。
That also means that we have a neural architecture that is desperately trying to keep us connected with other people.
这也意味着我们有一个神经架构，拼命地试图让我们与其他人保持联系。
And so when you spend a day alone, the reason why it feels like crap, as my late colleague and friend John Cacioppo, who was at the University of Chicago, studied loneliness, really was the world's expert on loneliness, noted that your neural architecture is screaming at you when you are alone to reach out and connect with other people.
因此，当你独自度过一天时，为什么会感觉很糟糕，正如我在芝加哥大学研究孤独的已故同事兼朋友约翰·卡西奥波（John Cacioppo）所指出的那样，他确实是世界上孤独问题的专家，他指出，当你独自一人时，你的神经结构正在向你尖叫，想要与其他人接触并联系。
That's why loneliness feels bad.
这就是为什么孤独感觉不好。
And that's why the opposite of loneliness feels so good.
这就是为什么孤独的反面感觉如此美好。
Like getting a hug, that feels good.
就像得到一个拥抱一样，感觉很好。
Your brain is trying to tell you, "Get out there and connect with other people." So when you're lonely, you get spikes in cortisol in your bloodstream that compromises your cardiovascular functioning, that compromises your immune system.
你的大脑试图告诉你，“走出去，与其他人联系。”因此，当你感到孤独时，你的血液中皮质醇就会激增，从而损害你的心血管功能，从而损害你的免疫系统。
That's why being lonely can make you sick, and why it can shorten your life.
这就是为什么孤独会让你生病，也会缩短你的寿命。
You also see that the opposite of loneliness, connecting with other people, just feels darn good.
你还会发现，与孤独相反，与他人交流，感觉非常好。
That's your brain telling you, that's your body telling you, "Yeah, do this a little more often.
这是你的大脑在告诉你，这是你的身体在告诉你，“是的，多做一点。
This is really good." So when you have that little conversation with a stranger, like I did coming in, I had this amazing- ...
这真的很好。”所以当你和一个陌生人进行短暂的交谈时，就像我进来时一样，我有一个令人惊奇的——......
conversation.
谈话。
It was actually a very deep, hard conversation with my Uber driver, who was Iranian.
这实际上是与我的 Uber 司机（伊朗人）进行的一次非常深入、艰难的对话。
Had lost a son in a protest.
在抗议中失去了一个儿子。
Shot in the neck years ago-
几年前颈部中枪——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In Iran
在伊朗
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
...
...
in there.
在那里。
In Iran, yeah.
在伊朗，是的。
Very painful, but also very meaningful.
很痛苦，但也很有意义。
Connected us to each other.
将我们彼此联系在一起。
Felt a very strong bond with each other in the moment.
那一刻感受到彼此之间的联系非常牢固。
That's your brain telling you that's the kind of thing that we're built for, right?
这是你的大脑告诉你我们就是为此而生的，对吧？
Because living alone for most of human history was a bad thing.
因为在人类历史的大部分时间里，独居是一件坏事。
So we are hyper-social agents interested in connecting with other people.
所以我们是超级社交代理，有兴趣与其他人建立联系。
It doesn't always mean we know exactly how to do it or that we get it right, but going from nothing to something is a huge leap for us, and texting can sometimes help us do that.
这并不总是意味着我们确切地知道如何去做或我们做得对，但从无到有对我们来说是一个巨大的飞跃，而短信有时可以帮助我们做到这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One comment, one question.
一条评论，一个问题。
Sometimes I like a day alone.
有时我喜欢独处一天。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah, for sure.
是的，当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't often get it-
我不经常明白-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Everybody does.
每个人都这样做。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but that's because I don't spend time around lots of people, but I spend a lot of time around a certain set of people.
但那是因为我不会花时间和很多人在一起，但我会花很多时间和一群特定的人在一起。
I adore them, but-
我很喜欢他们，但是——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
sometimes it's nice to get that space.
有时获得这样的空间是件好事。
But one thing that I've noticed, because when I was a graduate student, I'd run these experiments often during the holidays, because I worked on developmental neurobiology.
但我注意到一件事，因为当我还是一名研究生时，我经常在假期进行这些实验，因为我研究的是发育神经生物学。
I didn't have a choice if the-
我别无选择，如果——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
if my experimental subjects were a certain postnatal age, I was working -
如果我的实验对象达到了一定的产后年龄，我正在工作 -
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that day.
那天。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was my...
这是我的...
After all.
毕竟。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there's this kind of interesting idea that I'm not sure I subscribe to, but...
有一种有趣的想法，我不确定我是否同意，但是......
Well, that I do subscribe to, forgive me, that there's something about us as humans that we really like to create action at a distance.
好吧，我确实同意，请原谅我，作为人类，我们真的很喜欢在远处创造行动。
And I don't know if there's a sex difference here, but I think it's like young boys like to create rockets or remote control car.
我不知道这里是否存在性别差异，但我认为这就像年轻男孩喜欢制造火箭或遥控汽车一样。
You have boys-
你有男孩——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Or fire a gun
或者开枪
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you know.
你知道。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
You fire a gun.
你开枪。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or see something happen over there-
或者看到那边发生了什么事——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that you controlled in a-
你控制在-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in a meaningful way.
以一种有意义的方式。
And it doesn't have to be violent, right?
而且它不一定是暴力的，对吧？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We did rockets and guns-
我们做了火箭和枪支-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but it could've, could be something else.
但它也可能是别的东西。
But this is somewhat philosophical more than it's scientific, but could it be that if we spend too much time alone, we've got all this stuff in our mind, and it's very hard to create some sort of reverberation or action at a distance that we know reflects us.
但这更多地是哲学性的，而不是科学性的，但如果我们花太多时间独处，我们的脑海里就会出现所有这些东西，并且很难在我们知道反映我们的距离处产生某种回响或行动。
And I wonder if our unconscious mind actually gets to the question, like, do I even exist?
我想知道我们的潜意识是否真的会思考这样的问题：我存在吗？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now, of course, we know we exist.
现在，当然，我们知道我们存在。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Huh.
呵呵。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We can touch our limbs-
我们可以触摸我们的四肢——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and, but the social isolation fear, if I've got fridge full of food and I've got music and I've got audiobooks, that's all incoming.
而且，但是社交隔离的恐惧，如果我的冰箱里装满了食物，我有音乐，我有有声读物，这些都会传入。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But at some point, you do get a little...
但在某些时候，你确实会得到一点...
I know because I've spent days upon days doing experiments back when by myself, but you get a little weird.
我知道，因为当我独自一人时，我花了好几天的时间做实验，但你会觉得有点奇怪。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Your thoughts get a little distorted.
你的想法有点扭曲。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's almost like you know there's stuff out there, but if you spend enough time away from it, it kind of messes with your head a little bit.
就好像你知道外面有东西一样，但如果你花足够的时间远离它，你的头脑就会有点混乱。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then, of course, we think of the Ted Kaczynski types-
然后，当然，我们想到了特德·卡辛斯基类型——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and these extremes of people-
而这些极端的人——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that have gone into isolation.
已经进入隔离状态。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's that movie about the true story, the guy that goes into the wilderness.
有一部关于真实故事的电影，一个走进荒野的人。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Right.
正确的。
Yeah, Eddie Vedder wrote the soundtrack to that movie.
是的，埃迪·维德为那部电影写了配乐。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I love it.
我喜欢它。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
"Into the Wild."
“进入荒野。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's right.
没错。
And-
还有——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
McKenna's, right?
麦肯纳的吧？
McKenna's?
麦肯纳的？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think he wrote at the end, the connection with people is the thing.
我认为他在最后写道，与人的联系才是最重要的。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He had this romantic view-
他有这样浪漫的看法——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of going out into-
出去进入-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the wilderness by himself, or we think of-
荒野独自一人，或者我们想到-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
"Walden Pond" and-
《瓦尔登湖》和——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
we romanticize-
我们浪漫化——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
this thing about being alone for extended amounts of time.
这就是长时间独处的事情。
But I think it raises real questions about whether or not we're even there.
但我认为这提出了关于我们是否在那里的真正问题。
It's sort of the most existential version of like, if a tree falls in the woods-
这有点像最存在主义的版本，如果一棵树倒在树林里——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and no one's there, did it make a sound?
那里没人，有声音吗？
It's sort of like, if we have thoughts and emotions and experiences, and there's no one else around-
有点像，如果我们有想法、情感和经历，而周围没有其他人——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to reflect those, for them to have impact on, do we even exist?
为了反映这些，为了让它们产生影响，我们是否存在？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this might be some hardwiring here.
这可能是一些硬连线。
I'm getting almost Freudian, and so forgive me, I'm not a psychologist.
我已经接近弗洛伊德了，所以请原谅我，我不是心理学家。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I...
我...
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I'm curious what your thoughts are about the relationship between the fear of isolation, our need for our thoughts and desires and behaviors to have some sort of reverberation-
但我很好奇你对孤立的恐惧与我们对思想、欲望和行为产生某种影响的需要之间的关系有何看法——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
out there.
在那里。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Some responsiveness to us or something.
对我们的一些反应或者其他什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, some confirmation that we're actually here.
是的，有些确认我们确实在这里。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I think the closest research to this, to the extent that there is research on this, is what happens to people, prisoners who are put in solitary confinement.
我认为与此最接近的研究，就这方面的研究而言，是被单独监禁的人、囚犯身上发生的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
It is not good for their mental health.
这对他们的心理健康不利。
It's not good for their sense of selves, for who they are.
这对他们的自我意识和他们是谁都不好。
They do lose a sense of themselves.
他们确实失去了自我意识。
There's not great research on this because you can't randomly assign people to be isolated for long periods of time, right?
这方面还没有很好的研究，因为你不能随机分配人们进行长时间的隔离，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank goodness.
感谢上帝。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes, thank goodness.
是的，谢天谢地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
That's why we have IRBs, right?
这就是我们设立 IRB 的原因，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
But that experience, I think, is very real.
但我认为这种经历是非常真实的。
When you were talking about this, it made me think of research in the early 1900s, these theories from sociologists, that the way we understand ourselves is through other people.
当你谈论这个时，这让我想起了 1900 年代初期的研究，社会学家的这些理论，我们了解自己的方式是通过其他人。
The way I know who I am, what I'm like as a person, who Nick is, is from talking with you, Andrew, and when we are in conversation, that's when I'm learning about myself.
我知道我是谁、我作为一个人是什么样的、尼克是谁，都是通过与你交谈，安德鲁，当我们交谈时，那就是我了解自己的时候。
You're telling me about myself.
你在告诉我关于我自己的事情。
I'm having thoughts that I'm sharing with you.
我有一些想法要与你分享。
And that's what gives me a sense of self, this looking glass self.
这就是给我一种自我意识的东西，这个镜子里的自我。
And our sense of self-esteem, in fact, is highly tied.
事实上，我们的自尊感是高度相关的。
Am I a valuable person?
我是一个有价值的人吗？
Is highly tied to how well we're getting along with other people.
与我们与他人相处的融洽程度密切相关。
Psychologists believe that it is a monitor, in fact, for how well you're getting along with people, your very sense of self-worth.
心理学家认为，它实际上是一个监视器，可以监控你与人相处的情况以及你的自我价值感。
And so when there is nobody out there, I think you're absolutely right, that you can lose your sense of who you are.
因此，当外面没有人时，我认为你是绝对正确的，你可能会失去你是谁的感觉。
And people who go out to the woods, I remember when I was a kid, I actually wrote this up.
那些去树林里的人，我记得当我还是个孩子的时候，我实际上写下了这个。
I won an early career award from APA, which is a great honor for me, but in the bio that they ask you to write, I wrote in that about my childhood dream.
我获得了 APA 的早期职业奖，这对我来说是一个巨大的荣誉，但是在他们要求你写的简历中，我写了关于我童年的梦想。
Before I was nine years old, I believed I was going to be a mountain man.
在我九岁之前，我相信我会成为一名山民。
I grew up in the woods in Iowa, hunting and fishing, being outdoors.
我在爱荷华州的树林里长大，在户外打猎、钓鱼。
All my extended family were farmers.
我所有的大家庭都是农民。
Watching Grizzly Adams on TV.
在电视上观看灰熊亚当斯。
I thought that was a legit job.
我认为那是一份合法的工作。
Like I could actually go do this, right?
就像我实际上可以去做这件事一样，对吗？
And I was about nine years old when, I don't remember quite how this happened, but I learned that this was not a real job.
我大约九岁的时候，我不太记得这是怎么发生的，但我知道这不是一份真正的工作。
Like this was not a legit thing that I could do, right?
好像这不是我能做的合法事情，对吧？
But yes, I had romanticized it as well, that this was going to be a wonderful thing to be able to do.
但是，是的，我也把它浪漫化了，这将是一件很棒的事情。
But when people actually go out and do that, they mostly go insane.
但当人们真正出去这样做时，他们大多会发疯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
It is very, well
非常非常好
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 for nearly 15 years now.
你们很多人都知道，我服用 AG1 已有近 15 年了。
I discovered it way back in 2012, long before I had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since.
我早在 2012 年就发现了它，那时我还没有播客，从那时起我就每天都在听它。
AG1 is, to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market.
据我所知，AG1 是市场上质量最高、最全面的基础营养补充剂。
It combines vitamins, minerals, prebiotics, probiotics, and adaptogens into a single scoop that's easy to drink and tastes great.
它将维生素、矿物质、益生元、益生菌和适应原结合到一勺中，易于饮用且味道极佳。
It's designed to support things like gut health, immune health, and overall energy, and it does so by helping to fill any gaps that you might have in your daily nutrition.
它旨在支持肠道健康、免疫健康和整体能量等，并通过帮助填补您日常营养中可能存在的任何缺口来实现这一目标。
And of course, we should all eat high-quality whole foods, but most of us are probably not getting enough prebiotics, vitamins, and minerals, and AG1 ensures that those gaps are filled.
当然，我们都应该吃高质量的天然食品，但我们大多数人可能没有摄入足够的益生元、维生素和矿物质，而 AG1 可确保填补这些空白。
I get asked all the time by people if they were to take just one supplement, what would my recommendation for that supplement be?
人们总是问我，如果他们只服用一种补充剂，我对该补充剂的建议是什么？
And my answer is always AG1, because it's just been so critical for supporting all aspects of my physical health, mental health, and performance by covering those nutritional, what we call foundational bases.
我的答案始终是 AG1，因为它通过涵盖这些营养（我们称之为基础），对于支持我的身体健康、心理健康和表现的各个方面非常重要。
And I know from my own experience, and from everyone I've heard that I recommended it to, that they simply feel much better in a number of different ways when they take it regularly.
从我自己的经验以及我听说过我推荐的每个人那里我知道，当他们定期服用它时，他们在许多不同的方面都会感觉好多了。
If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 以获得特别优惠。
For a limited time, AG1 is giving away a week's supply of AGZ, which is their sleep supplement, and a free bottle of vitamin D3+K2 with your subscription.
在有限的时间内，AG1 将赠送一周的 AGZ（这是他们的睡眠补充剂），以及一瓶免费的维生素 D3+K2。
AGZ is something that I helped design.
AGZ是我帮忙设计的。
It tastes great, and it's the only sleep supplement I take.
味道很好，也是我唯一服用的睡眠补充剂。
It has a collection of different things in it that has dramatically improved my sleep, both my slow-wave deep sleep and my rapid eye movement sleep, and I absolutely love it.
它里面有一系列不同的东西，极大地改善了我的睡眠，包括我的慢波深度睡眠和快速眼动睡眠，我非常喜欢它。
Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman to get a week supply of AGZ and a bottle of D3+K2 with your subscription.
再次强调，通过 Drinkag1.com/huberman 订阅即可获得一周的 AGZ 和一瓶 D3+K2。
Social media, which I spend a decent amount of time on because I teach there and I learn there, we know has healthy aspects and unhealthy aspects.
我在社交媒体上花费了大量时间，因为我在那里教书，在那里学习，我们知道社交媒体有健康的一面，也有不健康的一面。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A bunch of variables there, age, what people are looking at, et cetera, how much time they're spending on it.
那里有很多变量，年龄，人们在看什么，等等，他们在上面花了多少时间。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
What they're doing on it, yeah.
他们正在做什么，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, but social media offered people this opportunity to get out of aloneness through a different form of connection.
是的，但是社交媒体为人们提供了通过不同形式的联系摆脱孤独的机会。
And so if we just kind of hypothesize that having our words or our thoughts have a visible, a known impact on somebody else's words or thoughts, provide some sort of confirmation that we're there.
因此，如果我们只是假设我们的言语或想法对其他人的言语或想法产生可见的、已知的影响，请提供某种确认我们在那里。
It-
它——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
kind of explains why-
有点解释了为什么-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
taking the most aggressive or outrageous thought and putting a comment, and then somebody responds, or other people dog pile, or they respond.
采取最激进或最无耻的想法并发表评论，然后有人回应，或者其他人狗屎，或者他们回应。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then you're like, "I'm having an effect out there," also safely behind a wall, right?
然后你会想，“我在外面产生了影响”，而且还安全地躲在墙后，对吧？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's no...
没有...
I think we're critical of that safely behind a wall piece, the stereotype that you hear online.
我认为我们对“安全地躲在墙后”的做法持批评态度，即您在网上听到的刻板印象。
It's like Apple7689 in his mom's basement trolling people.
这就像 Apple7689 在他妈妈的地下室里恶搞别人一样。
But then we forget, that person's alone in their basement.
但后来我们忘记了，那个人独自一人在地下室里。
Why are they doing it?
他们为什么这么做？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Why is it so satisfying to them?
为什么他们这么满意？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't actually believe that most of these people are evil.
我实际上并不相信这些人中的大多数都是邪恶的。
Some of them might be, but probably they want to see their words and thoughts have an effect.
他们中的一些人可能是这样，但他们可能希望看到自己的言语和想法产生影响。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Have some impact.
有一定的影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the best way to do that is to poke or to say something outrageous.
最好的方法就是戳戳或者说一些令人难以容忍的话。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so I'm hoping that whoever runs these platforms will try to create incentives for more positive interactions, because I think ultimately what most people want is the interaction, to feel that their thoughts and their feelings matter out there.
因此，我希望无论谁运营这些平台，都会尝试为更积极的互动创造激励，因为我认为最终大多数人想要的是互动，感觉到他们的想法和感受很重要。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
So if we can go to something even a little more concrete, if we just think about conversation, right, the back and forth.
因此，如果我们可以做一些更具体的事情，如果我们只考虑对话，对吧，来来回回。
Why is it that conversation is often such a pleasant thing?
为什么谈话常常是一件令人愉快的事情？
It is because there is back-and-forth responsiveness in the conversation that allows me to detect that you're paying attention to me.
这是因为谈话中有来回的反应，让我能够察觉到你在关注我。
Right now you're looking at me, right?
现在你正在看着我，对吗？
And you're nodding at me as I'm speaking, and you'll give a "Mm-hmm," or a "Right," or a "Yeah," as I'm going along, and that allows me to recognize my thoughts are having an effect on you in a way that's having a positive effect in return on me.
当我说话时，你会向我点头，当我说话时，你会发出“嗯嗯”或“对”或“是”的声音，这让我认识到我的想法正在对你产生影响，从而对我产生积极的影响。
And so I think very much that action at a distance, as you put it, psychologists talk about that as responsiveness or being in synchrony with another person, is part of what makes conversation feel so good.
所以我非常认为，正如你所说，心理学家将其称为反应能力或与另一个人的同步，远距离行动是使谈话感觉如此良好的一部分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have some friends who are recording artists, and the only reason they still tour-
我有一些朋友是唱片艺术家，他们仍然巡演的唯一原因是——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Oh, yeah
哦，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's not for the money.
这不是为了钱。
Believe that the money's, in some cases, is good, but it's not as good as money they can make doing other things.
相信在某些情况下，钱是好的，但不如做其他事情赚的钱好。
It's a huge hassle.
这是一个很大的麻烦。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Takes them away from families.
让他们远离家人。
There's security issues.
存在安全问题。
There's all this stuff.
有所有这些东西。
But they get to experience the apex of collective human action at a distance based on their-
但他们能够在远处体验人类集体行动的顶峰，因为他们——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Their doing
他们的所作所为
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
their inflections, their-
他们的语调变化，他们的——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
things.
的事情。
You mentioned Eddie Vedder, right?
你提到了埃迪·维德，对吧？
And then there are stories or whatever, at some concert, right, he scaled up and the microphone got stuck up above.
然后有一些故事或者其他什么，在一些音乐会上，对吧，他放大了，麦克风卡在了上面。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah .
哦，是啊，是啊，是啊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then he actually...
然后他其实...
I actually watched it.
我确实看过。
It was pretty dangerous.
这非常危险。
And then he actually rappelled down on the microphone wire.
然后他实际上沿着麦克风线绳索下降。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Oh, my goodness.
哦，天哪。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
This was all spontaneous.
这都是自发的。
So he's doing these things.
所以他正在做这些事情。
I don't know how much he's conscious of the fact that he's exciting people and...
我不知道他在多大程度上意识到他是一个令人兴奋的人，而且……
But recording artists love to do this.
但唱片艺术家喜欢这样做。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They don't just love to sing.
他们不只是喜欢唱歌。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They love to see the response of-
他们喜欢看到以下的回应——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the people they sing to.
他们唱歌给的人。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And people go to concerts-
人们去听音乐会——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I believe, because whether they understand it or not, they're having an impact on what's happening up on stage.
我相信，因为无论他们是否理解，他们都会对舞台上发生的事情产生影响。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
And are in synchrony with each other.
并且彼此同步。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That they understand that reciprocity.
他们理解这种互惠。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I think we're just driven to do this.
所以我认为我们只是被迫这样做。
I have to believe that this is part of our core wiring.
我必须相信这是我们核心线路的一部分。
When we're kids and we round up in preschool, like when they, "All right, everyone round up," and everyone tries to sit still, and the girls generally can, and the boys generally can't-
当我们还是孩子的时候，我们在幼儿园里聚集在一起，就像他们说“好吧，大家都聚集起来”，每个人都试图安静地坐着，女孩通常可以，男孩通常不能-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for a little at least until a later age.
至少直到晚年。
There's a lot of learning to let others speak, to kind of hold things in.
让别人说话、克制自己的事情需要很多学习。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So as a human psychologist, if you were to play primatologist for a moment-
因此，作为一名人类心理学家，如果你暂时扮演灵长类动物学家——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and we're human-
我们是人类-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
old world primates-
旧世界灵长类动物-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
what are the sort of core components that social connection are built on?
社交联系建立在哪些核心组成部分之上？
We talked about dialogue.
我们讨论了对话。
We talked about vision.
我们谈论了愿景。
We talked about sharing.
我们讨论了分享。
But we don't get a whole lot of training in this, if you really think about it.
但如果你认真思考的话，我们并没有在这方面接受过大量的培训。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We just kind of go through school.
我们只是完成了学校的学业。
We learn to sit.
我们学习坐下。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We learn to listen.
我们学会倾听。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're not supposed to hit people.
你不应该打人。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're not supposed to yell at people.
你不应该对人大喊大叫。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You run around at recess-
你在课间休息时跑来跑去——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and so on, and-
等等，还有——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you do what other people do.
你做别人做的事。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What is the socialization in human primates?
人类灵长类动物的社会化程度如何？
What are the core features that make somebody able to function really well socially or not?
使一个人能够很好地进行社交活动或不能很好地进行社交活动的核心特征是什么？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
I think the thing to keep in mind, at least, is the reason why we think social connection matters so much, why it's so important, is that it allows us to coordinate with other people.
我认为至少要记住的是，为什么我们认为社交联系如此重要，为什么它如此重要，是因为它使我们能够与其他人协调。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
And if I can coordinate with you, then you and I are better able to survive and to exist and pass along our genes than if we can't coordinate with each other.
如果我能与你协调，那么你和我比彼此不能协调时更能够生存、存在并传承我们的基因。
And that groups that are able to coordinate with each other, collectively cooperate with each other in ways that are good for the common good, those groups outperform groups where people are just at each other's throat and nobody's cooperating.
那些能够相互协调、以有利于共同利益的方式相互合作的团体，这些团体的表现要优于人们互相争斗、无人合作的团体。
Right?
正确的？
This is why corporations function effectively.
这就是公司有效运作的原因。
You get a collection of individuals all operating as a single unit, all oriented towards one common goal, and you can get a collection of people, of individuals then doing things that are way more advanced and way bigger than any individual would do on their own.
你会得到一群人，他们作为一个整体运作，所有的人都以一个共同的目标为导向，你可以得到一群人，一群人，然后做比任何个人单独做的更先进、更伟大的事情。
This is why the East Indian Trading Company was able to send ships all around the world, because they had resources tied up in corporations so that they could send ships out into the world, and if one went down, you wouldn't lose all of your resources, you wouldn't lose all your riches as an investor.
这就是为什么东印度贸易公司能够向世界各地发送船只，因为他们有企业捆绑的资源，这样他们就可以将船只发送到世界各地，如果一艘船沉没了，你不会失去所有的资源，也不会失去作为投资者的所有财富。
So all of social connection, at least evolutionarily speaking, this is the idea, is pushing us toward cooperation and coordination, particularly with non-kin.
因此，所有的社会联系，至少从进化的角度来说，就是这个想法，正在推动我们走向合作和协调，特别是与非亲属的合作和协调。
That's what makes us truly social on this planet, is our ability to cooperate and to care for non-kin.
这就是我们在这个星球上真正具有社会性的原因，是我们合作和照顾非亲属的能力。
You don't need coordination with family members.
您不需要与家人协调。
You don't need any special evolutionary mechanism to get coordination with family members.
你不需要任何特殊的进化机制来与家庭成员协调。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's hardwired.
它是硬连线的。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
They have your genes.
他们有你的基因。
So that makes perfect sense, you're leaving genetic offspring.
所以这是完全有道理的，你会留下遗传后代。
But you need something else to explain why I'm so friendly with you and why we coordinate so well out there in the world.
但你需要其他东西来解释为什么我对你如此友好以及为什么我们在世界上协调得如此之好。
We drive on the right side of the road, we befriend people who we're not related to, and that's where I think all of this-- That's what social connection is ultimately trying to serve, is that coordination function.
我们在路的右侧行驶，我们与那些与我们无关的人交朋友，这就是我认为所有这一切的原因——这就是社会联系最终试图服务的，就是协调功能。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you think there are hardwired mechanisms that set us up for cooperation with our genetic offspring and siblings and so forth, more so-
你是否认为存在一些硬连线机制可以让我们与我们的遗传后代和兄弟姐妹等合作，更重要的是——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
than with non-genetic.
与非遗传性相比。
I know you have adopted kids.
我知道你收养了孩子。
We have adopted kids in our family-
我们家收养了孩子——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as well, and it's sort of weird to say this because it's kind of a duh, but for people that don't have adopted family members, the notion that they're not really part of your family is insane.
这么说也有点奇怪，因为这有点废话，但对于那些没有收养家庭成员的人来说，认为他们不是真正的家庭成员的想法是疯狂的。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For privacy reasons, I don't want to disclose who these people are, but I can tell you that I have a younger family member who was adopted, and I never, ever, ever think for a moment that she's not part of our family.
出于隐私原因，我不想透露这些人是谁，但我可以告诉你，我有一个被收养的年轻家庭成员，我从来没有想过她不是我们家庭的一部分。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Right.
对。
Of course.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd lay down in traffic for her-
我会为了她而堵车-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes, of course
是的，当然
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the same way I would for-
就像我会用同样的方式-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Of course you would
你当然会
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
any other member of my family.
我家庭的任何其他成员。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Of course you would.
你当然会的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I wasn't the one that raised her.
而且我也不是抚养她长大的人。
Do you think there's something hardwired about our genetic offspring, and the other stuff fortunately develops?
你认为我们的遗传后代有一些与生俱来的东西，而其他东西幸运地发展起来了吗？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Adopted children, close friends-
收养的孩子，亲密的朋友——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
community members.
社区成员。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I don't know the answer to that exactly.
我不知道确切的答案。
That's not what I study, per se.
这本身不是我研究的内容。
What I can tell you, though, as a social psychologist, is that what we study is the power of context and roles to drive behavior, and the thing that you are speaking to, and the thing that we have experienced as parents, we have three adopted children, what really matters is the role you play.
不过，作为一名社会心理学家，我可以告诉你的是，我们研究的是环境和角色驱动行为的力量，以及你正在交谈的事物，以及我们作为父母所经历的事情，我们有三个领养的孩子，真正重要的是你扮演的角色。
Right?
正确的？
And that is magical.
这很神奇。
When we adopted our first two children from Ethiopia, we made a decision to do this.
当我们从埃塞俄比亚收养头两个孩子时，我们做出了这样做的决定。
And when you adopt, there's a point where you move from this being hypothetical to being this being real.
当你采用时，你就会从假设转变为真实。
Okay?
好的？
And the way this worked for us was that we were shown pictures of these children who we could adopt, and of course, once you're in on it, you're all in.
这对我们有用的方式是，我们看到了这些我们可以收养的孩子的照片，当然，一旦你参与其中，你就全参与了。
You're not really making a choice.
你并没有真正做出选择。
"Hmm, I'm not sure." We called up the agency, we said we were ready to go, and they said, "How about these?" And they put a picture up for us.
“嗯，我不确定。”我们打电话给该机构，我们说我们准备好了，他们说：“这些怎么样？”他们为我们贴了一张照片。
And when we first making this decision, it was hypothetical, and the pictures looked different to us.
当我们第一次做出这个决定时，这是假设的，而且图片对我们来说看起来不一样。
Our kids have come from very, very hard places in life.
我们的孩子来自生活非常非常艰难的地方。
You don't end up in an orphanage in another part of the world unless you've come through hard places.
除非你经历过艰难的处境，否则你不会最终进入世界另一个地方的孤儿院。
They had come through very hard places.
他们经历了非常艰难的时期。
They were in the second and third percentile on the WHO heightened weight charts.
他们在世界卫生组织体重增加图表上处于第二和第三百分位。
They were in tough shape.
他们的状态很艰难。
As soon as Jen and I said, "Yeah, we can do this," I so vividly remember this, they just looked better.
当珍和我说：“是的，我们可以做到这一点，”我清楚地记得这件事，他们看起来更好了。
You just felt more love.
你只是感受到了更多的爱。
They looked different-
他们看起来不一样——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
...
...
the second we decided, "Yes, this is it.
第二次我们决定，“是的，就是这样。
Here we go.
我们开始吧。
We have committed."
我们已经承诺了。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
And then once you bring people into your family, anybody who's done this knows the huge effect is your dad or your mom, and that's what matters.
一旦你把人带入你的家庭，任何做过这件事的人都知道巨大的影响是你的爸爸或你的妈妈，这才是最重要的。
We will sometimes, I don't know if your family has done this, but I will sometimes very gently note to people, they will sometimes talk to me as another father of my kids and not my kids, right, as if the biological and adopted children are different.
我们有时会，我不知道你们的家人是否这样做了，但我有时会非常温和地告诉人们，他们有时会以我孩子的另一个父亲而不是我的孩子的身份来谈论我，对吧，就好像亲生孩子和领养孩子是不同的。
And I very try to gently say, "They are all our children, and you don't feel different." So I think what's interesting, not as if is there any subtle difference that's left, is how almost completely imperceptible or completely imperceptible it actually is.
我试着温柔地说：“他们都是我们的孩子，你不会觉得有什么不同。”所以我认为有趣的不是是否存在任何细微的差别，而是它实际上是几乎完全难以察觉或完全不可察觉的。
That's what makes us remarkable as human beings, that we can do that.
这就是我们作为人类的非凡之处，我们可以做到这一点。
There is no other species we know of that does that kind of thing, that loves beyond their kin in the way that we can.
据我们所知，没有其他物种能像我们一样做这种事，比它们的亲缘关系更能表达爱。
In fact, it's led to a total reshaping in many ways of the field of economics even.
事实上，它甚至导致了经济学领域许多方面的彻底重塑。
Economists believe that humans are fundamentally self-interested.
经济学家认为，人类本质上是自利的。
They only care about themselves.
他们只关心自己。
The only rub is when you actually look at the data People are just a lot nicer to each other than standard models of economics would predict.
唯一的问题是，当你实际查看数据时，人们之间的关系比标准经济学模型预测的要友善得多。
We give money away to charity.
我们把钱捐给慈善机构。
We give away kidneys to random strangers.
我们将肾脏赠送给随机的陌生人。
We care.
我们关心。
Like if I give you $10 in an experiment and tell you you can divide it with another person however you want, you can keep all of it, give none of it, or give it all away, the standard prediction from economic theory is you'll be purely self-interested.
就像如果我在一个实验中给你 10 美元，并告诉你你可以将它与另一个人分享，无论你想要什么，你可以保留所有它，不给它，或者全部放弃，经济理论的标准预测是你将纯粹是自利的。
You won't care anything about this person you know nothing about.
你不会关心这个你一无所知的人。
You'll give them nothing.
你不会给他们任何东西。
That's not what real people do.
那不是真正的人所做的。
They give something, 30%, 50%, typically depending on the context that you're in, and that's the thing that I think is remarkable in this particular case.
他们会给出一些东西，30%、50%，通常取决于你所处的环境，这就是我认为在这个特殊情况下值得注意的事情。
Not is there any bit left of this biological hardwiring, but how much of it is about the role that you play and how much our love for another, our ability to connect with another person is a function of the role that we play in their lives.
并不是这种生物硬连线还剩下什么，而是其中有多少是关于你扮演的角色，以及我们对另一个人的爱有多少，我们与另一个人联系的能力是我们在他们生活中扮演的角色的函数。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Incredible example, that the moment you and your wife made the decision that these were the children you were going to adopt, that your visual perception of them changed.
令人难以置信的例子是，当您和您的妻子决定这些孩子是您要收养的孩子时，您对他们的视觉感知就发生了变化。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
They looked different.
他们看起来不同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It's almost like two circuits merged in that moment, and I can attest from a parallel experience, although I'm not the parent of this family member, that it's an instant and you never go back.
那一刻几乎就像两个电路合并了，我可以从平行的经历中证明，尽管我不是这个家庭成员的父母，但那只是一瞬间，你永远不会回去。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
It is.
是的。
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's never a reconsideration.
从来没有重新考虑过。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think some people assume that-
我认为有些人认为——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
well, in especially hard times, it kind of just leaves the room.
好吧，在特别困难的时期，它就会离开房间。
The question of-
问题是——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
It leaves the room.
它离开了房间。
It's immaterial
这无关紧要
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's a fascinating and reassuring aspect of-
这是一个令人着迷且令人放心的方面——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Exactly
正是如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
our brain wiring.
我们的大脑线路。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Other people might imagine that you think this.
其他人可能会想象你也这么想。
It just doesn't.
事实并非如此。
You're just a parent.
你只是一个父母。
That's it.
就是这样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wild, and very cool.
狂野，而且非常酷。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
It is very cool, and I think an underappreciated aspect of our sociality is how much we...
这非常酷，我认为我们社会性的一个未被充分重视的方面是我们......
And we often take it for granted.
我们常常认为这是理所当然的。
People are mean to each other and so on.
人们互相刻薄等等。
Yeah, people can be mean to each other, but we also love each other way beyond what we should in some way based on just pure kinship relationships and biological offspring would predict we would, and that's because we're highly social.
是的，人们可以彼此刻薄，但我们也以某种方式彼此相爱，超出了我们应该以某种方式基于纯粹的亲属关系和生物学后代所预测的，这是因为我们具有高度的社交性。
We got to cooperate with each other in order to get along successfully in life.
我们必须互相合作才能在生活中顺利相处。
And so we've got these really hardwired kind of circuitry to care and love and connect with each other when we try.
因此，当我们尝试时，我们就有了这些真正硬连线的电路来关心、爱护并相互联系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What I'm about to describe might be different now-
我现在要描述的可能会有所不同-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Hmm
嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but a good portion of my family's in South America, and I'll never forget when I was in my probably late teens, early 20s, I went down there, and I went out with my cousins to a bar.
但我家人的很大一部分都在南美，我永远不会忘记当我十几岁、二十岁出头的时候，我去了那里，和我的表兄弟姐妹一起去了一家酒吧。
It was like a club, right?
这就像一个俱乐部，对吧？
And it was so interesting because they spoke to their friends.
这很有趣，因为他们与朋友交谈。
We met up with their friends there.
我们在那里见到了他们的朋友。
People danced, people drank, did all the things that we were also doing back in-
人们跳舞，人们喝酒，做我们以前也在做的所有事情——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
California.
加利福尼亚州。
But there was no communication with other people at this club or this bar that they didn't already know.
但在这个俱乐部或这个酒吧里，没有他们不认识的其他人的交流。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This may have changed.
这可能已经改变了。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Huh.
呵呵。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But then and there, the culture was one where you go out with the people you already know, and you have a really good time, but people weren't exchanging numbers, hitting on people, looking at other people across.
但当时的文化是，你和你已经认识的人出去玩，你们会度过一段非常愉快的时光，但人们不会交换电话号码，不会搭讪，也不会看着对面的其他人。
There were these little pockets-
有这些小口袋——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Nice.
不错。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
across the room, so it wasn't this idea that, oh, when you go out in public, you go to a club, or you drink or something, you might meet somebody else.
房间的另一边，所以并不是这样的想法，哦，当你去公共场合，你去俱乐部，或者你喝酒什么的，你可能会遇到其他人。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Interesting.
有趣的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There wasn't a fear of other people.
没有对其他人的恐惧。
That wasn't the reason you go out.
这不是你出去的原因。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You go out to see your friends.
你出去见见你的朋友。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the interesting thing also was that many of these friendships had been lifelong friendships.
有趣的是，这些友谊中有许多是终生的友谊。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So in some sense, I wonder, is this one version of how humans evolved?
所以从某种意义上说，我想知道，这是否是人类进化的一种版本？
Because we always think about this village-
因为我们总是想着这个村庄——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Hmm, yeah
嗯，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of 100 people.
100 人。
Bob Sapolsky talks about this, and we evolved in these culture of 100 or 200 folks, and you knew everyone, and everyone's in each other's business, and that's how our species evolved.
鲍勃·萨波尔斯基（Bob Sapolsky）谈到了这一点，我们在 100 或 200 人的文化中进化，你认识每个人，每个人都在彼此的事务中，这就是我们物种的进化方式。
At the same time, we have different examples of sociality.
同时，我们也有不同的社交例子。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
And that strangers weren't around as much-
而且周围没有那么多陌生人-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
...
...
was the idea.
这就是我的想法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It's hard to say.
很难说。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Certainly today, if you look around the world, there is and always has been some anxiety about connecting with strangers, and it can vary depending on where.
当然，今天，如果你环顾世界，就会发现与陌生人交往总是存在一些焦虑，而且这种焦虑可能因地点而异。
There's some places where there's more sociability than in others.
有些地方比其他地方更适合社交。
But there's always been some anxiety about the other, the one you don't know, right?
但总是对另一个你不认识的人感到焦虑，对吗？
Because you don't know necessarily if I can trust you or not at this moment, whether that comes from our evolutionary heritage or not, or just unfamiliar with anything, right?
因为你不一定知道我此刻是否可以信任你，无论这是否来自我们的进化遗产，或者只是不熟悉任何东西，对吗？
So, if you give me something to drink here and I don't know what's in it, I'm going to be a little nervous, and I want to find out before I drink it.
所以，如果你给我这里喝的东西，而我不知道里面是什么，我就会有点紧张，我想在喝之前弄清楚。
And if I trust you, I'll drink it, but if I don't, I'm not so sure.
如果我相信你，我就会喝它，但如果我不相信，我就不太确定了。
I'm going to want to see what's in there first.
我想先看看里面有什么。
There's always some anxiety about the unknown or uncertainty, and it could be a lot of stuff about strangers, a reluctance to connect with other people, a desire to keep with the folks we already know come simply from that, right?
人们总是对未知或不确定的事物感到焦虑，这可能是因为很多关于陌生人的事情，不愿意与其他人联系，渴望与我们已经认识的人保持联系，这些都源于此，对吗？
Which also would apply to non-human interactions, too, or non-human objects as well.
这也适用于非人类交互或非人类物体。
We just like what's familiar because we know it, and we trust it, and we're comfortable with it as a result.
我们只是喜欢熟悉的东西，因为我们了解它，我们信任它，因此我们对它感到满意。
Everything else, by comparison, is a little bit riskier.
相比之下，其他一切的风险都更大一些。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I can't say I'm particularly outgoing or not, but I was taught manners that had me ask how people's day was going.
我不能说我特别外向，但我被教导要学会礼貌，让我问别人今天过得怎么样。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like if I'm checking out at the grocery store-
就像我在杂货店结账一样-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's like, "How's your day going?"
就像“你今天过得怎么样？”
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm interested.
我很感兴趣。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not just an icebreaker of some, like, "How's your day going?"
这不仅仅是一些人的破冰之道，比如“你今天过得怎么样？”
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You hold the door for people.
你为人们把门。
You say please and thank you.
你说请并谢谢你。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think a lot of people assume that manners equates to small talk equates to superficial-
我认为很多人认为礼貌等同于闲聊等同于肤浅——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Hmm
嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and that it's all a bunch of fluff-
而且这都是一堆绒毛-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Hmm
嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that it's not about deep connection.
这与深层联系无关。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But when I'm moving through the checkout line at Whole Foods, I don't have a lot of options.
但当我在全食超市排队结账时，我没有太多选择。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If I say nothing, okay, these days, no one would-
如果我什么也不说，好吧，现在没有人会——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
notice.
注意。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They could be on their phone.
他们可能正在打电话。
No one would call that abnormal.
没有人会认为这是不正常的。
If I say, "How's your day going?" And they go, "Pretty good." If I say, "What'd you do before you got here?" That's getting a little bit further down the line, right?
如果我说：“你今天过得怎么样？”他们说：“很好。”如果我说：“你来这里之前做了什么？”这有点进一步了，对吧？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If I say, "What's the hardest thing that ever happened to you?" They're going to look at me like I'm crazy, right?
如果我说：“你遇到过的最困难的事情是什么？”他们会用异样的眼神看着我，就像我疯了一样，对吗？
So, what I wonder is When we talk about manners and etiquette-
所以，我想知道的是，当我们谈论礼仪时——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which I believe there's been a real kind of erosion of-
我相信这是一种真正的侵蚀-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
at the level of what is standard, for whatever reason.
无论出于何种原因，都处于标准水平。
We just don't have an etiquette everyone follows.
我们只是没有一个人人都遵守的礼仪。
It used to be all men wore jackets and ties-
以前都是男人穿夹克打领带——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or at least ties to work.
或者至少与工作有联系。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now you show up in whatever, right?
现在你什么都出现吧？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I do think that as manners have become less common, or common manners have become less common, that the opportunities for casual low-level exchange have evaporated.
我确实认为，随着礼仪变得不那么常见，或者常见的礼仪变得不那么常见，随意的低级别交流的机会已经消失了。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so there's less of a stepping stone to deeper exchange.
因此，更深层次交流的垫脚石就更少了。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So I would think about manners kind of as habits, right?
所以我认为礼仪有点像习惯，对吗？
That's kind of what they are.
他们就是这样。
And some sensibilities about other people, being kind and decent to other people.
还有一些对其他人的敏感性，对他人友善和正派。
But understanding how those manners might be affecting day-to-day behavior is a little bit tricky.
但了解这些礼仪如何影响日常行为有点棘手。
So one of the things, for instance, we find in a lot of public spaces, people are reluctant to engage with other people because they don't want to interrupt.
例如，我们在很多公共场所发现，人们不愿意与其他人交往，因为他们不想打扰。
They don't want to be impolite.
他们不想变得无礼。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
There's a version of that, that is about manners, right?
有一个版本，是关于礼仪的，对吧？
And sometimes we're getting signals of that.
有时我们会收到这样的信号。
Tech gives us signals that somebody doesn't want to be bothered, perhaps.
也许科技给我们发出了某人不想被打扰的信号。
Like we put earbuds in or we look at our phone, right?
就像我们戴上耳机或者看手机一样，对吗？
And so some of that could be coming from what you might think of as manners.
因此，其中一些可能来自您可能认为的礼仪。
In the UK, for instance, one of the reasons we find, well, this is true in the US too, but even a little more so in the UK, there's this norm of politeness, that it's not okay for me to get into your business.
例如，在英国，我们发现的原因之一，在美国也是如此，但在英国更是如此，有一种礼貌规范，我不可以介入你的生意。
In Japan, it's even stronger, right?
在日本，它更强大，对吗？
I don't want to...
我不想...
And that's seen as being polite.
这被视为有礼貌。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Right?
对吗？
In those contexts.
在这些情况下。
I am with you, though, that this general norm of saying hello or hi to people has gotten diminished a little bit, in part because people, I think, are getting out of the habit because you've got these phones on you all the time.
不过，我同意你的观点，这种向人们打招呼或嗨的普遍规范已经有所减少，部分原因是人们，我认为，正在戒掉这个习惯，因为你一直带着这些手机。
But I think it's a little trickier.
但我认为这有点棘手。
It's a little harder to say maybe that manners have eroded because they're complicated out in the world.
很难说礼仪是否已经受到侵蚀，因为它们在世界上变得很复杂。
Stuff that looks like could be a lack of manners in one context could, in people's own minds, be, "No, I'm being polite to you by not interrupting." It's tricky.
在某种情况下，看起来可能是缺乏礼貌的事情，在人们自己看来，可能是，“不，我不打断你是对你有礼貌。”这很棘手。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I hear from a lot of podcast listeners that the challenges with finding a romantic partner nowadays center largely around people not wanting to be seen as creepy-
是的，我从很多播客听众那里听说，如今寻找浪漫伴侣的挑战主要集中在人们不想被视为令人毛骨悚然的地方——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but also people not wanting strangers to talk to them.
但也有人不希望陌生人与他们交谈。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Right.
对。
It's impossible.
这是不可能的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We're at a little bit of an impasse right now.
我们现在有点陷入僵局。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah, it's impossible.
是的，这是不可能的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I also hear from people who wonder why guys aren't asking them out just kind of randomly or asking them for a coffee-
我也听到有人想知道为什么男人不随机约他们出去或者请他们喝咖啡——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or for a number or something like that.
或者一个数字或类似的东西。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think there's a lot of fear right now, is what I hear.
我认为现在有很多恐惧，这是我所听到的。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that fear is probably...
而这种恐惧可能是……
Well, it certainly is on both sides.
嗯，这肯定是双方的。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You said you had an in-depth conversation with your Uber driver-
你说你和你的 Uber 司机进行了深入的交谈——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Amazing
太棒了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
on the way over here.
正在来这里的路上。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Amazing.
太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It used to be that I would get into deep conversations on airplanes.
以前我会在飞机上进行深入的交谈。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It just seems like we're stuck in this-
看来我们陷入了困境——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
I did last night coming-
我昨晚来了-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You know?
你知道吗？
Did you?
你有吗？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
I did last night coming out to talk to you.
我昨晚确实出来和你说话了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The only downside being sometimes, if your neck is turned to one side-
唯一的缺点是有时，如果你的脖子转向一侧-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you can get off that plane with a-
你可以用-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with a stiff neck.
脖子僵硬。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But in all seriousness, so are you one to just open up conversation with people at random?
但说实话，你是一个会随意与人交谈的人吗？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah?
是吗？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
In part because we could go back a long way to start, but I'll start at the beginning of our research-
部分原因是我们可以追溯到很长一段路要开始，但我将从我们研究的开始开始——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
...
...
but I'll keep this simple.
但我会保持简单。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
毫米。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
I've interpreted reaching out and connecting with other people differently.
我对与他人接触和联系有不同的理解。
We find in our work that people underestimate how interested others are in engaging with them.
我们在工作中发现，人们低估了其他人与他们交往的兴趣。
So you're sitting next to somebody on a plane or on a train, and people, if you're not already talking, you assume this person doesn't want to talk to you.
所以，在飞机或火车上，你坐在某人旁边，而人们，如果你还没有说话，你就会认为这个人不想和你说话。
But that person is more likely to say they're interested in talking to you than you would guess.
但那个人更有可能说他们有兴趣与你交谈，比你想象的要多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
But if you've got two people that aren't talking to each other, this gets back to our earlier conversation, how I can use somebody's behavior as a guide to their thoughts.
但是，如果两个人没有互相交谈，这就回到了我们之前的谈话，我如何利用某人的行为来指导他们的想法。
In this case, making a mistake, I can infer you're not interested in talking to me if you're not, and you could be thinking, "Well, Nick's not talking to me.
在这种情况下，犯了一个错误，如果你没有兴趣，我可以推断你对和我说话不感兴趣，你可能会想，“好吧，尼克不和我说话。
He's not interested in it either." We can both then sit there, both be interested in talking to each other, but nobody's saying a word because we misunderstand what silence is like.
他对此也不感兴趣。”然后我们都可以坐在那里，都有兴趣互相交谈，但没有人说一句话，因为我们误解了沉默的含义。
Right?
正确的？
Or we assume that people don't want to have meaningful conversations, when in fact, most people say that's actually what they want.
或者我们假设人们不想进行有意义的对话，而事实上，大多数人说这正是他们想要的。
So I've adopted a different way to think about manners here in a way that I think attends more to both my own well-being and the person who I'm connecting with.
因此，我采取了一种不同的方式来思考这里的礼仪，我认为这种方式更多地关注我自己的福祉和与我交往的人。
I think about social connection as an opportunity or an invitation to connect with somebody.
我认为社交联系是与某人联系的机会或邀请。
And to your point about fear, we find over and over again, people are overly pessimistic, overly afraid about how positively other people will respond to them when you reach out to them in a positive way.
至于你关于恐惧的观点，我们一次又一次地发现，人们过于悲观，过于害怕当你以积极的方式与他们接触时，其他人会对他们做出积极的反应。
So, like with the Uber driver on the way here today, he was Iranian.
所以，就像今天来这里的优步司机一样，他是伊朗人。
I asked him, "How do you feel about the war?
我问他：“你对战争有什么看法？
Can you tell me about it?" And it was clear that I was not wanting some superficial response.
你能告诉我这件事吗？”很明显，我不想得到一些肤浅的回应。
I cared.
我关心。
I was taking an interest in him, and he recognized I was taking an interest in him.
我对他感兴趣，他也意识到我对他感兴趣。
And he responded by taking an interest then in me and feeling comfortable sharing.
他的回应是对我产生了兴趣，并愿意与我分享。
And he shared that his son died in a protest in Iran, and that he had been imprisoned in Iran.
他还透露，他的儿子在伊朗的抗议活动中死亡，并在伊朗被监禁。
And we were crying, but together at the end of that ride.
我们哭了，但在那次旅程结束时我们一起哭了。
It was 23 minutes to get here.
到这里花了23分钟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The fact that you're able to connect for a short while.
事实上，您可以连接一小段时间。
I'm assuming you didn't exchange numbers.
我假设你没有交换号码。
You're not going to be in touch.
你不会再联系了。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
We didn't, no.
我们没有，不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So the point is not to create a lasting relationship.
所以重点不是建立持久的关系。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The point is to connect.
重点是要连接。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
To make that moment better.
为了让那一刻变得更好。
Yeah.
是的。
And I think actually this is a really important way to rethink how you think about well-being.
我认为实际上这是重新思考如何看待幸福的非常重要的方式。
Well-being is not just about the intense, the really impactful moments in your life.
幸福不仅仅指生活中那些紧张、真正有影响力的时刻。
Happiness and well-being is a little more like a leaky tire.
幸福和安康有点像漏气的轮胎。
You just got to keep pumping it up because you adapt to things, right?
你必须继续打气，因为你适应了事情，对吗？
You go on this amazing trip out into the beautiful Sonoran Desert or something, right?
您将前往美丽的索诺兰沙漠或其他地方进行这次奇妙的旅行，对吧？
And that's great, and you come back the next day, and then you got traffic coming to work, and that sucks, right?
那太好了，第二天你回来，然后你上班的时候交通堵塞了，这很糟糕，对吧？
You're right back to where you were before.
你又回到了之前的位置。
It doesn't last.
它不会持久。
Nothing really lasts for that long.
没有什么能真正持续那么久。
Well, obviously relationships can last, but moments come and go, right?
嗯，显然关系可以持续，但时刻来来去去，对吗？
And what that means, I think, for our well-being, is that we want to start paying attention to creating good moments, right?
我认为，为了我们的福祉，这意味着我们要开始关注创造美好的时刻，对吧？
Positive moments that can lift us up and the people around us as well.
积极的时刻可以让我们和我们周围的人振奋。
And I could have gone 23 minutes here, to talk with you today and had a perfectly boring ride, or I could have heard one of the most amazing stories about somebody's life where he opens his heart up to me in this car ride in 23 minutes and made that 23 minutes way better and connect with another human being-
我今天可以在这里呆 23 分钟，和你聊聊，度过一次完全无聊的旅程，或者我可以听到关于某人一生中最令人惊奇的故事之一，他在 23 分钟的车程中向我敞开了心扉，让这 23 分钟变得更好，并与另一个人建立了联系 -
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
More deeply than you might imagine would be possible in that short time, and make that moment better.
在那短短的时间内，可能会比你想象的更深入，并使那一刻变得更好。
My day is better because that moment was better.
我的一天更美好，因为那一刻更美好。
And if you start thinking about happiness and connection in terms of moments rather than some sort of illusion of some lasting long-term impact, well, then you start seeing opportunities to connect all over the place, right?
如果你开始从瞬间的角度思考幸福和联系，而不是某种持久的长期影响的幻觉，那么你就会开始看到到处联系的机会，对吗？
On my plane flight in last night, did that, right?
在我昨晚的飞机上，是这样的，对吧？
In the grocery store checkout line, you got an opportunity.
在杂货店收银台排队时，您有机会。
I now keep an eye out.
我现在留意一下。
I just pay attention.
我只是注意一下。
I take an interest in other people.
我对其他人很感兴趣。
The research that I've done here on social connection has fundamentally changed the way that I live my life.
我在这里所做的关于社交关系的研究从根本上改变了我的生活方式。
I take an interest in other people, so I notice stuff that I didn't use to notice.
我对其他人感兴趣，所以我注意到了以前没有注意到的事情。
I'll throw out compliments.
我会扔掉赞美。
Any kind thought, I will share with somebody.
任何善意的想法，我都会与某人分享。
I just don't have anxiety about that.
我只是对此并不焦虑。
Keep moving on.
继续前进。
If from passing, I'll shout out...
如果路过，我会大声喊出来……
Like this morning, I got breakfast at the hotel I was at.
就像今天早上，我在酒店吃早餐。
Guy's wearing a killer hat.
这家伙戴着一顶杀手帽子。
And I'm walking by.
而我正路过。
"Hey, man.
“嘿，伙计。
I love your hat.
我喜欢你的帽子。
That's awesome." And I walk by and he says, "I love it, too." Right?
太棒了。”我走过时他说：“我也喜欢它。”正确的？
And I just kept going.
我就继续前进。
But that moment was a little brighter, right?
但那一刻有点光明，对吧？
And what's a good day if not to string along a few good moments?
如果不记录一些美好的时刻，那又算什么美好的一天呢？
And what's a good week if not to string along a few days that have some good moments in them?
如果不是连续几天度过一些美好时光，那么一周又算什么呢？
And what's a good month, a good year-
什么是美好的月份，美好的一年-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
...
...
a good life?
美好的生活？
It's about those moments.
这是关于那些时刻。
And we got lots of those moments, and if we start thinking about them in terms of opportunities to connect, to be decent to another person in a way that'll really use the skill we have to connect with other people instead of being held back by misplaced fear, changes the way you live your life.
我们有很多这样的时刻，如果我们开始考虑与他人建立联系的机会，以一种真正利用我们与他人建立联系的技能而不是被错误的恐惧所阻碍的方式对待他人的机会，就会改变你的生活方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Function.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 Function。
Function provides over 160 advanced lab tests to give you a clear snapshot of your bodily health.
功能提供超过 160 项高级实验室测试，让您清晰了解自己的身体健康状况。
This snapshot gives you insights into your heart health, your hormone health, autoimmune function, nutrient levels, and much more.
通过此快照，您可以深入了解心脏健康状况、激素健康状况、自身免疫功能、营养水平等。
They've also recently added access to advanced MRI and CT scans.
他们最近还增加了先进的 MRI 和 CT 扫描的访问权限。
Function not only provides testing of over 160 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, it also analyzes these results and provides recommendations for improving your health from top doctors.
Function 不仅提供对您身心健康至关重要的 160 多种生物标记物的测试，还分析这些结果并提供顶级医生改善您健康的建议。
For example, in a recent test with Function, I learned that some of my blood lipids were slightly out of range.
例如，在最近的一次 Function 测试中，我发现我的一些血脂稍微超出了范围。
As a result, I decided to start supplementing with nattokinase, which can naturally help reduce LDL cholesterol.
因此，我决定开始补充纳豆激酶，它自然可以帮助降低低密度脂蛋白胆固醇。
And it did.
确实如此。
In a follow-up test, I could confirm that this strategy worked.
在后续测试中，我可以确认这个策略是有效的。
My blood lipids are now back exactly where I want them.
我的血脂现在完全回到了我想要的水平。
Comprehensive lab testing of the sort that Function offers is just so important for health.
Function 提供的全面实验室测试对于健康非常重要。
I mean, how else are you going to know what's going on under the hood?
我的意思是，你还怎么知道幕后发生了什么？
And while I've been doing blood work for years, it used to be time-consuming, complicated, and expensive.
虽然我从事血液检查已有多年，但它过去非常耗时、复杂且昂贵。
In fact, I used to spend thousands of dollars per year trying to get this kind of data, and the data, frankly, were not all that good.
事实上，我曾经每年花费数千美元试图获得此类数据，但坦率地说，这些数据并不那么好。
But now with Function, it's extremely easy and affordable.
但现在有了 Function，它变得非常简单且经济实惠。
A Function membership is only a dollar a day, $365 a year.
Function 会员每天仅需 1 美元，每年 365 美元。
And if you think about the information it provides, and the health challenges it helps you avoid, and the proactive things that it can do for you to enhance your health, I truly look at it as a savings.
如果您考虑一下它提供的信息，它可以帮助您避免的健康挑战，以及它可以为您增强健康所做的积极主动的事情，我确实将其视为一种节省。
To learn more, visit functionhealth.com/huberman and use the code Huberman for a $50 credit towards your membership.
要了解更多信息，请访问 functionhealth.com/huberman 并使用代码 Huberman 获得 50 美元的会员积分。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman.
同样，这是 functionhealth.com/huberman。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
Yeah.
是的。
I'm listening to you and I'm thinking some of the best moments of my life, and I've had many, many, are really at this kind of level of in passing.
我正在听着你的讲话，我正在思考我一生中最美好的一些时刻，我有过很多很多这样的时刻。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
You mentioned, in my mind I was saying, never underestimate the good feeling that comes from a good fist bump with someone that you exchange no words with.
你提到，在我心里，我想说的是，永远不要低估与一个与你没有任何言语的人碰拳所带来的良好感觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You bet.
你打赌。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
And I live in a very crowded area, and so I don't go out much, but when I do, occasionally you just pass someone on the sidewalk and you just put out a fist and you feel a kinship.
我住在一个非常拥挤的地区，所以我不怎么出去，但当我出去的时候，偶尔你只是在人行道上经过某人，你只要伸出拳头，你就会感到一种亲切感。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
The other day also, I have a very niche but a very deep relationship to a certain genre of music, so just walking down the boardwalk and someone shouted out...
前几天，我与某种音乐流派有着非常小众但又非常深厚的关系，所以当我走在木板路上时，有人大声喊道……
I was wearing a Minor Threat shirt.
我穿着一件轻微威胁衬衫。
I'm a big Ian MacKaye fan, Minor Threat, Fugazi.
我是 Ian MacKaye、Minor Threat、Fugazi 的忠实粉丝。
And someone goes, "Minor Threat!" And I go, "Minor Threat!" I don't even know where they were.
有人说：“轻微威胁！”我说：“轻微威胁！”我什至不知道他们在哪里。
And I'm dating myself here by saying that, but still an amazing band, right?
我是这么说的，但仍然是一支很棒的乐队，对吧？
No matter how old you are, check it out.
不管你多大年纪，都请检查一下。
But you feel a kinship to other members of your species-
但你会感觉到与你的物种的其他成员有一种亲缘关系——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
...
...
that way.
那样。
I don't know who these people are.
我不知道这些人是谁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
It's interesting.
这很有趣。
It's a whole other level of human connection that I hadn't thought of, and as with manners and etiquette and that kind of superficial small talk piece, I kind of assumed that this stuff didn't matter.
这是我没有想到的完全不同层次的人际关系，就像礼仪和礼仪以及那种肤浅的闲聊一样，我有点认为这些东西并不重要。
That it was-
那是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
...
...
kind of like, ah, well, okay-
有点像，啊，好吧，好吧-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
...
...
that's like-
那就像-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Small
小号
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
...
...
that's not nourishment.
那不是营养。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
That's not a nice elk steak.
那不是一块美味的麋鹿牛排。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
Or a beautiful-
或者是一个美丽的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
...
...
vegetable spread.
蔬菜传播。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
That's like a cracker.
这就像一块饼干。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
But the comparison isn't fair-
但这样的比较并不公平——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
...
...
because ultimately, like you said, our life is a series of moments.
因为最终，就像你说的，我们的生活是由一系列的时刻组成的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
And the feeling that our species has a kinship that isn't based on anything else.
以及我们人类之间有一种不以任何其他为基础的血缘关系的感觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes.
是的。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
There was no exchange of-
没有交换——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
...
...
money or opportunities-
金钱或机会——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
...
...
or any of that, is pretty awesome.
或其中任何一个，都非常棒。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some sense that we're connected.
有些感觉我们是有联系的。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
Yeah, it's pretty awesome.
是的，这太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We're in this together in some way.
我们在某种程度上是在一起的。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
Yeah.
是的。
There's a hypothesis that many of my PhD students and postdocs over the years have suggested and that we've talked about, but we have never figured out a way to actually test it.
多年来我的许多博士生和博士后都提出了一个假设，我们也讨论过这个假设，但我们从未找到实际测试它的方法。
But some sense that when you interact with a stranger, a member of a group of some kind, but a stranger's a good example.
但有些人感觉，当你与陌生人互动时，某个群体的成员，但陌生人就是一个很好的例子。
It doesn't just make you feel connected to that person, it kind of changes your sense of connection to the entire group.
它不仅让你感觉与那个人有联系，而且还改变了你与整个群体的联系感。
You just feel a little better about humanity when you see that moment.
当你看到那一刻时，你对人性的感觉会好一点。
You deliver a compliment to somebody.
你向某人表示赞美。
I was walking down the sidewalk just a little bit ago on my way to the train, and there was a woman standing next to a car, and she just had these awesome red glasses on.
不久前，我在去火车的路上走在人行道上，有一个女人站在汽车旁边，她戴着这副很棒的红色眼镜。
They just looked fabulous.
他们看起来棒极了。
And I said to her as I were going by, "I love those glasses.
当我经过时，我对她说：“我喜欢那副眼镜。
You are killing it today." And she took them off
今天你就杀了它。”她把它们脱下来
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Almost, she wasn't going to cry, but she stopped, and she said, "Thank you so much for telling me that.
她几乎不想哭，但她停了下来，她说：“非常感谢你告诉我这些。
I really needed that today."
我今天真的需要这个。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Right?
对吗？
I had met her in a moment where she had a bad day.
我是在她心情不好的时候遇见她的。
And my sense is she just felt uplifted just by people in general-
我的感觉是，她只是因为普通人而感到振奋——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
...
...
by the world.
由世界。
Just had a more favorable-
刚刚有一个更优惠的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
...
...
view of what the world was like, a different view of what human nature was like-
对世界的看法，对人性的不同看法——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
...
...
in that moment-
在那一刻——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
...
...
than she otherwise would've had.
比她本来会拥有的。
Yesterday, on my train ride into University of Chicago before I got on a flight to come here to see you, sit down next to a young man on the train.
昨天，在我乘坐火车前往芝加哥大学的途中，在我乘飞机来这里看你之前，我在火车上坐在一个年轻人旁边。
He's got his earbuds in, looking at his phone, easy stereotype, young man disconnected from the world.
他戴着耳机，看着手机，一副简单的刻板印象，一个与世隔绝的年轻人。
I sit down, and I sat right next to him, I said, "Hi." I reached out, "I'm Nick." To shake his hand.
我坐下来，坐在他旁边，我说：“嗨。”我伸出手：“我是尼克。”去握他的手。
He came back with a fist bump rather than a handshake.
他回来时不是握手，而是碰拳。
But then he took out his right earbud, and I started talking to him.
但后来他拿出了右耳塞，我开始和他说话。
I said, "What are you up to today?
我说：“你今天有什么事吗？
What are you going into town for?" And he said, "Well, I'm going to this culinary program downtown." And what was so crystal clear right away was how proud he was that he was doing this.
你进城来做什么？”他说：“好吧，我要去市中心参加这个烹饪项目。”显而易见的是，他为自己所做的事情感到多么自豪。
He'd come from LA, actually.
事实上，他来自洛杉矶。
And he was just getting into this training program, this trade school, to get him into this culinary union where he was going to work as a chef maybe for a hotel or a big restaurant.
他刚刚参加这个培训计划，这个贸易学校，让他进入这个烹饪联盟，在那里他可能会在一家酒店或一家大餐厅担任厨师。
He pulled out his book, his little three-ring binder that had his lessons for it.
他拿出他的书，他的三环小活页夹，里面有他的课程。
I actually took a picture of it.
我真的给它拍了一张照片。
I have a son who's entering a trade program right now.
我有一个儿子现在正在参加贸易项目。
I've never seen him happier in his life than when he's doing this.
我一生中从未见过他比做这件事更快乐的时候。
And he was flipping through, showing me what they were doing today.
他正在翻阅，向我展示他们今天在做什么。
He was just so proud of what he was doing, so ready to talk with me about this.
他对自己所做的事情感到非常自豪，所以准备和我谈论这件事。
His name was Gustavo.
他的名字叫古斯塔沃。
Delightful young man.
令人愉快的年轻人。
And I remember leaving that conversation just feeling better about my kids, and just about kids in general.
我记得在结束这次谈话时，我对我的孩子们以及整个孩子们感觉更好了。
Like, here is a kid who's really trying to make it, and that felt good.
就像，这是一个真正努力做到这一点的孩子，这感觉很好。
Not just about this young man, Gustavo, who I felt fortunate to spend 30 minutes that made that 30 minutes much better, but kind of uplifting about the entire category that he was from.
不仅仅是关于古斯塔沃这个年轻人，我觉得他很幸运能够度过 30 分钟，这让这 30 分钟变得更好，而且对于他所属的整个类别来说有点令人振奋。
And what's interesting is how easy it is, to your point about manners, say, to avoid that out of fear.
有趣的是，就你关于礼仪的观点而言，出于恐惧而避免这种行为是多么容易。
He doesn't want to talk to me.
他不想和我说话。
He's not that interested in having a meaningful conversation with me.
他对与我进行有意义的谈话不太感兴趣。
He doesn't want to go there, right?
他不想去那里，对吗？
But in fact, that's the thing we're all dying for.
但事实上，这就是我们都渴望的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's super interesting.
超级有趣。
I'd never thought about this aspect of social dynamics.
我从来没有考虑过社会动态的这个方面。
Yes, manners.
是的，礼仪。
Both my parents are very polite.
我的父母都很有礼貌。
They taught us to be polite.
他们教我们要有礼貌。
My girlfriend comes from the South, so she's very polite.
我女朋友来自南方，所以她很有礼貌。
Manners are-
礼仪是——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
like a big thing.
就像一件大事。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And she's a genuinely kind person.
而且她是一个真正善良的人。
That's why I think people hear manners and kindness, and they think, oh, it's fake.
这就是为什么我认为人们听到礼貌和友善时，他们会认为，哦，这是假的。
But it's not.
但事实并非如此。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a real, it's part of the social fabric.
这是真实的，是社会结构的一部分。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Not that I'm the data point that matters, but I assure anyone who aspires to be a public-facing person, the thing you give up when you're a public-facing person is this.
并不是说我是重要的数据点，但我向任何渴望成为面向公众的人的人保证，当你成为面向公众的人时，你放弃的就是这个。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Oh, really?
哦，真的吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It's interesting.
这很有趣。
And for somebody like me, it's compensated for by the other things you gain, right?
对于像我这样的人来说，这是通过你获得的其他东西来补偿的，对吗？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But that disappears, right?
但那消失了，对吗？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not with everyone, right?
不是每个人都这样，对吧？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it disappears.
但它消失了。
And so as you're saying this, I actually realized I have a little bit of nostalgia about just being able to go out and interact with people.
所以当你这么说时，我实际上意识到我对能够出去与人互动有一点怀念。
And sometimes it happens, but-
有时它会发生，但是-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a lot of times, things revert back to-
很多时候，事情又会回到——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to the podcast or things like-
播客或类似的东西-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
They know you.
他们认识你。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which I really love.
我真的很喜欢。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love it when people roll up and have questions, and-
我喜欢人们聚集在一起提出问题，而且——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
everyone knows me that I'll give a podcast right there.
每个人都知道我，我会在那里做一个播客。
If someone has a question, I'm going to give an answer.
如果有人有问题，我会给出答案。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Sit down for two hours, please.
请坐两个小时。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I always say, I'm genuinely interested in them.
嗯，我总是说，我真的对它们感兴趣。
And I'll be like, "Where are you from?
我会说：“你来自哪里？
What's your name?" I'm genuinely interested.
你叫什么名字？”我真的很感兴趣。
I'm not asking it to deflect.
我并不是要求它偏转。
I'm really interested.
我真的很感兴趣。
But the anonymous, brief exchange that reinforces our and their understanding.
但匿名、简短的交流加强了我们和他们的理解。
It's not like a belief.
这不像是一种信仰。
It's like an understanding.
这就像一种理解。
It's a feeling-
这是一种感觉——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that we're part of the same species.
我们是同一物种的一部分。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That is an incredibly powerful and reinforcing thing, I think.
我认为这是一件非常强大和强化的事情。
Especially for me, I'm very affiliative.
尤其是对我来说，我非常有归属感。
I can imagine, and I'll just table this possibility, that there are some people who are not as affiliative.
我可以想象，并且我只是提出这种可能性，有些人并不那么有亲和力。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know one or two people whose names I won't mention, who don't really...
我认识一两个人，我不会提及他们的名字，他们实际上并不......
It's not that they dislike people, but unless it's their family, they're not really interested in other people.
并不是他们不喜欢人，而是除非是他们的家人，否则他们对其他人并不真正感兴趣。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're just not.
他们只是不是。
And I can't say that they're unhappy.
我不能说他们不高兴。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They like their family, they like their books, they like their movies.
他们喜欢他们的家庭，他们喜欢他们的书，他们喜欢他们的电影。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we could say that they would be better off if they were different, but they don't seem to really like other people.
我们可以说，如果他们与众不同，他们会过得更好，但他们似乎并不真正喜欢其他人。
They don't-
他们不-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
dislike them.
不喜欢他们。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But they've got their people, and then there's everyone else.
但他们有他们的人，然后还有其他人。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the idea that they would interact with these other people, except in professional-
他们会与其他人互动，除了专业方面的交流——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
circumstances, I think to them is kind of foreign.
我认为这种情况对他们来说有点陌生。
But I'm making a lot of assumptions here, too.
但我在这里也做出了很多假设。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So you can find situations where everybody seems to act that way.
所以你会发现每个人似乎都这样做的情况。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Right?
对吗？
Like on my train coming into Chicago every morning, where nobody's talking with each other.
就像我每天早上去芝加哥的火车上一样，那里没有人互相交谈。
It looks like nobody cares about other people.
看起来没人关心别人。
They don't have any interest in talking to other people.
他们没有兴趣与其他人交谈。
In those kinds of situations, when you ask people to connect with somebody else, everybody kind of gets lifted up.
在这种情况下，当你要求人们与其他人建立联系时，每个人都会感到振奋。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
If you look across, say, introversion and extroversion, a common hypothesis is that extroverts get their energy and their enjoyment from connecting with other people, whereas folks who are more introverted get their energy and enjoyment from keeping to themselves, right?
如果你纵观内向和外向，一个常见的假设是，外向的人从与他人的联系中获得能量和享受，而内向的人则从独处中获得能量和享受，对吗？
That's what they want.
这就是他们想要的。
The data just don't support that.
数据并不支持这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
So this we've known for a long time.
所以这我们很早就知道了。
So extroversion is correlated with wellbeing, with happiness.
因此，外向性与幸福感和幸福感相关。
Going back to 1980, one of the very first studies that ever tested is personality related to wellbeing, an easy hypothesis is no, it's not.
回到 1980 年，最早测试的研究之一就是人格与幸福感相关，一个简单的假设是否定的，事实并非如此。
It can't be.
不可能。
Because, right, people get what they want out of their lives, right?
因为，人们从生活中得到了他们想要的东西，对吗？
And everybody's equally happy because extroverts connect with other people.
每个人都同样快乐，因为外向的人与其他人交往。
They reach out, they care about other people.
他们伸出援手，关心他人。
Introverts don't care as much about other people, or they have other preferences to keep to themselves or have deeper, meaningful conversations, right?
内向的人不太关心其他人，或者他们有其他的偏好要保留在自己身上，或者进行更深入、有意义的对话，对吗？
But everybody's getting what they want.
但每个人都得到了他们想要的。
So theoretically, there should be no correlation at all between personality and wellbeing.
因此从理论上讲，性格和幸福感之间不应该存在任何相关性。
And that just isn't true.
但这不是真的。
Correlation between happiness, positive affect day to day, and extroversion is .5 That's huge.
幸福感、日常积极情绪和外向性之间的相关性为 0.5，这是巨大的。
That is big.
那是很大的。
That's like the correlation between the heights of fathers and sons.
这就像父亲和儿子身高之间的相关性。
That is a big correlation.
这是一个很大的相关性。
Right?
正确的？
It's a little weaker with things like satisfaction with life, it's a little more like .3, but that correlation is big, and it shows up around the world.
对于诸如生活满意度之类的事情，它的相关性稍弱一些，更像是 0.3，但这种相关性很大，并且在世界各地都存在。
Right?
正确的？
In 1996, Ed Diener, one of the founding figures in the science of happiness or well-being, stated, "The foundational result in personality science is that extroversion is correlated with well-being or happiness." The more outgoing and extroverted you are, the more you connect with others, the happier you are.
1996年，幸福或幸福科学的奠基人之一埃德·迪纳（Ed Diener）表示：“人格科学的基本结果是，外向性与幸福或幸福相关。”你越外向，与他人的联系越多，你就越快乐。
Lots of reasons why that could be.
可能有很多原因。
There's a third variable.
还有第三个变量。
Maybe extroverts are just happier than introverts to begin with, say.
比如说，也许外向的人一开始就比内向的人更快乐。
But it raises question, maybe it's something about the choices they're making, the habits they're developing, how they're actually behaving, and so that makes a easy prediction that, well, what happens if we just ask people to reach out and connect more with other people, to act a little more extroverted?
但这提出了一个问题，也许这与他们所做的选择、他们正在养成的习惯、他们实际上的行为有关，因此我们可以很容易地预测，如果我们只是要求人们伸出援手，与其他人建立更多联系，表现得更外向一点，会发生什么？
Does it affect their well-being?
这会影响他们的福祉吗？
Could this be like a well-being intervention?
这可以算是一种健康干预吗？
And it turns out it is.
事实证明确实如此。
Will Fleeson, a psychologist at Wake Forest University, was one of the very first people to do this.
维克森林大学的心理学家威尔·弗利森（Will Fleeson）是最早这样做的人之一。
Half-hour lab study, asked people to act more extroverted or more introverted.
半小时的实验室研究，要求人们表现得更外向或更内向。
When people acted more extroverted, they reported feeling more positive in that experiment.
当人们表现得更加外向时，他们在实验中感觉更加积极。
When you asked people to act more introverted, they felt less positive, regardless of where they fell on this personality scale to begin with.
当你要求人们表现得更加内向时，无论他们一开始在这个人格量表上处于什么位置，他们都会感到不那么积极。
Over the course of a person's day, extroverts and introverts report feeling better alike when they're spending time with other people than when they're alone.
在一个人的一天中，外向的人和内向的人报告说，当他们与他人共度时光时，他们的感觉比独处时感觉更好。
You ask both to spend more time connecting with other people, being extroverted over the course of a day, a week, or more.
你要求双方花更多的时间与其他人交流，在一天、一周或更长时间的时间内变得外向。
Sonja Lyubomirsky, a psychology professor at UC Riverside, has done some of the best research on this.
加州大学河滨分校的心理学教授索尼娅·柳博米尔斯基（Sonja Lyubomirsky）对此进行了一些最好的研究。
Over the course of two weeks, you shift the positive affect meter up across the entire extroversion scale when people are connecting with others compared to when they're acting introverted.
在两周的时间里，与表现内向时相比，当人们与他人交往时，你会在整个外向量表中提高积极情绪。
I think what differs here between the folks you're describing who don't seem to get along well with others or like other people, or don't seem to care as much about other people, and folks who do, are the habits that they have developed.
我认为你所描述的那些似乎与他人相处不好或不像其他人，或者似乎不太关心别人的人与关心别人的人之间的区别在于他们养成的习惯。
A little like exercise, I think, is the way to think about it.
我认为，思考这个问题的方式有点像锻炼。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Some of us choose to exercise a lot.
我们中的一些人选择大量锻炼。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
You choose to exercise a lot, clearly.
显然，你选择大量锻炼。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
I don't like I-
我不喜欢我-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But you're a former athlete.
但你以前是一名运动员。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
I'm a former athlete.
我是一名前运动员。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You played football and you wrestled, competitively.
你踢足球，也摔跤，很有竞争力。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Basketball.
篮球。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Basketball, sorry.
篮球，对不起。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
I played basketball and football.
我打篮球和踢足球。
Yeah.
是的。
No, I avoided wrestling because-
不，我避免摔跤，因为——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, okay
哦，好吧
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
...
...
I wanted my ears to keep looking good.
我希望我的耳朵保持良好状态。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊。
Your ears look good.
你的耳朵看起来不错。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah, but I struggle to find the time for it, so I don't choose to exercise as much as I should now, right?
是的，但是我很难找到时间，所以我没有选择像现在这样锻炼身体，对吧？
But we all would feel better if we exercised a little more, regardless of what our habits are.
但无论我们的习惯如何，如果我们多运动一点，我们都会感觉更好。
So what the data on this suggests is that, yeah, if people open themselves up a little bit more to other people, try to reach out and connect in positive ways with other people.
因此，这方面的数据表明，是的，如果人们向其他人敞开心扉，尝试以积极的方式与其他人接触并建立联系。
The porcupines in our lives are not making themselves happier by keeping their quills out and keeping to themselves.
我们生活中的豪猪并没有因为把刺伸出来、独来独往而让自己更快乐。
They're not living quite as good a life as they could live if they chose to live a little differently.
如果他们选择稍微改变一下生活，他们的生活就不会那么好。
Now whether they choose to or not, right, whether you exercise or not is not like a necessarily a moral virtue.
现在无论他们选择与否，对，无论你锻炼与否，并不一定是一种道德美德。
Somebody doesn't exercise, you can't say, "You have to exercise." But if you wanted to lift your life up a little bit, reach out and engage a little more often is what the data suggests, regardless of where you are on that spectrum.
有人不锻炼，你就不能说“你必须锻炼”。但数据表明，如果你想提高自己的生活质量，就应该多接触、多参与，无论你处于哪个阶段。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I realize it's not your specific area of work, but what about for people with social anxiety?
我知道这不是您的具体工作领域，但是对于患有社交焦虑症的人来说又如何呢？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My first impulse is to say, as long as you have the resources and the time, get a dog I'm not a big fan of dog parks-
我的第一反应是，只要你有资源和时间，养只狗吧，我不太喜欢狗公园——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for all sorts of-
对于各种 -
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
health reasons and, but when I lived in San Diego, I would take my bulldog mastiff puppy to the dog park.
健康原因，但当我住在圣地亚哥时，我会带着我的斗牛犬獒小狗去狗公园。
I made lots of friends.
我交了很多朋友。
He made friends.
他交了朋友。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah, for sure.
是的，当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And a dog is better than bumming a cigarette, which nobody does anymore, right?
养只狗比抽烟更好，现在已经没有人这样做了，对吧？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Met tons of people that way.
就这样认识了很多人。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
So what's interesting about that is that creates an excuse to have a conversation.
有趣的是，这为谈话创造了借口。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Well, I'm not suggesting anyone do this, but in the old days, you would ask for a cigarette, and you would then smoke side-
好吧，我并不是建议任何人这样做，但在过去，你会要一支烟，然后你会一边抽烟——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Whether you needed it or not.
无论你是否需要它。
But yeah.
但是是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Then you would smoke side by side with somebody, and you'd talk.
然后你会和某人并肩抽烟，然后聊天。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And sometimes there was a romantic interest, sometimes it was just a friendly interest, but you shared a brief experience.
有时有浪漫的兴趣，有时只是友好的兴趣，但你们分享了一段短暂的经历。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You got some nicotine in your system-
你的系统中有一些尼古丁-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which no doubt helped it.
这无疑有帮助。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
And they gave something to you, right?
他们给了你一些东西，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
So they share resources with you-
所以他们与你分享资源-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There was a trust piece
有一个信任的碎片
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
...
...
and so there's trust that's being-
所以就有了信任——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, that was a very common-
是的，这是一个很常见的——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
mode of exchange-
交换方式——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
until about, people really stopped doing that kind of in the-
直到大约，人们真的不再这样做了——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
mid-'90s-
90年代中期-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is when smoking really dropped off.
是吸烟真正减少的时候。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
So what's interesting about that, I think those tokens, the dog or the cigarette, are serving to work our way around our anxiety a little bit-
所以有趣的是，我认为这些象征物，狗或香烟，正在帮助我们稍微缓解我们的焦虑——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
...
...
that we have about connecting with other people.
我们与其他人联系的能力。
I don't think they're necessary.
我认为它们没有必要。
Right?
正确的？
They're not necessary, but they do help to get around that anxiety.
它们不是必需的，但它们确实有助于解决这种焦虑。
But to people who have social anxiety, it's a painful thing, of course, and it's hard.
但对于有社交焦虑的人来说，这当然是一件痛苦的事情，而且很难。
We all have it to some extent, are nervous about reaching out and engaging with other people in varying degrees.
我们都在某种程度上有这种情况，对与他人接触和交往都不同程度地感到紧张。
Some of that just being a function of how often we do it.
其中一些只是我们这样做的频率的函数。
When I was in graduate school, for instance, I was terrified of public speaking.
例如，当我在读研究生时，我害怕公开演讲。
Before my first job interview, which is my fourth year of graduate school at Princeton, I got super lucky to get this job interview.
在我第一次工作面试之前，也就是我在普林斯顿研究生院读四年级时，我非常幸运地得到了这次工作面试。
I was terrified.
我很害怕。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
I was terrified.
我很害怕。
My job-
我的工作——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because you seem so facile with it now.
因为你现在看起来很轻松。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Now I am.
现在我是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Now I am, right?
现在我就是了，对吧？
This is 25 years of practice and experience and exposure.
这是25年的实践、经验和接触。
And if you have social anxiety disorder, and you want to take care of it, this is something psychologists, clinicians can really take care of.
如果你患有社交焦虑症，并且你想治疗它，那么心理学家、临床医生可以真正解决这个问题。
There are lots of things that as psychologists we can't really deal with behaviorally.
作为心理学家，有很多事情我们无法真正用行为来处理。
Social anxiety is something we really can help people with.
社交焦虑是我们真正可以帮助人们解决的问题。
For this book, "A Little More Social" that I just wrote, I had a conversation with the guy who is responsible for really developing exposure therapy to treat anxiety disorders.
对于我刚刚写的这本书《多一点社交》，我与负责真正开发治疗焦虑症的暴露疗法的人进行了交谈。
Stefan Hofmann is his name.
斯特凡·霍夫曼是他的名字。
And essentially, the strategy is very simple.
从本质上讲，该策略非常简单。
If you are afraid of talking with a stranger or having a deep conversation, the way to get over that is not to simulate it or to imagine it.
如果你害怕与陌生人交谈或进行深入的交谈，克服这种恐惧的方法就是不要模拟它或想象它。
It's not like you get up and you give a pretend speech.
这并不是说你站起来就发表假装演讲。
That's what psychologists were doing for years.
这就是心理学家多年来一直在做的事情。
It doesn't work because it's still pretending.
它不起作用，因为它仍然是假装的。
You're not a real audience.
你不是真正的观众。
It has to be real.
它必须是真实的。
And that was Stefan Hofmann's real innovation, is you send people out in the world and to do the thing for real You're worried about getting rejected.
这就是斯特凡·霍夫曼真正的创新，你派人到世界各地，真正做这件事，你担心会被拒绝。
Go out and start asking people for help, and you'll learn that your fear is misplaced, that you get accepted more often than you might guess.
走出去，开始向人们寻求帮助，你会发现你的恐惧是多余的，你被接受的次数比你想象的要多。
Exposing people to that thing that they're anxious of.
让人们接触他们所焦虑的事情。
When the belief is misplaced, and with social anxiety, it is usually wildly misplaced.
当信念错位时，加上社交焦虑，它通常会严重错位。
That's what we find over and over again, is a mistaken barrier to connecting with other people.
这就是我们一次又一次发现的，这是与其他人联系的错误障碍。
That's how you ease that social anxiety and get rid of it.
这就是缓解并摆脱社交焦虑的方法。
Now, exposure therapy doesn't work for everything.
现在，暴露疗法并不适用于所有情况。
If you're afraid of bullets, you're afraid of getting shot by bullets.
如果你害怕子弹，你就害怕被子弹射中。
Repeated exposure to being shot by bullets is not going to make you less afraid of that.
反复遭受子弹射击并不会让你不再那么害怕。
That's going to be one trial learning, and that's going to be the end of it.
这将是一次尝试性的学习，然后就结束了。
But when your fears are misplaced, like it is with social stuff, exposure is what takes care of it.
但当你的恐惧被放错了地方时，就像社交场合一样，曝光就能解决它。
Not because you dull your anxiety so much.
不是因为你减轻了你的焦虑。
It's because you change your beliefs about what other people are like.
这是因为你改变了对其他人的看法。
You learn, oh, wait, other people are nicer than I think.
你会发现，哦，等等，其他人比我想象的要好。
When I say hi to somebody, they tend to say hi back.
当我向某人打招呼时，他们往往会回应我。
When I take an interest in somebody, they tend to take an interest in me.
当我对某人感兴趣时，他们往往也会对我感兴趣。
When I ask somebody for a cigarette, and they have one, they tend to give me one when I ask for it, and it makes this nice conversation.
当我向某人要一支烟时，他们有一支，当我向他们要烟时，他们往往会给我一支，这使得这次谈话很愉快。
Changes your beliefs.
改变你的信念。
That's why exposure therapy works.
这就是暴露疗法有效的原因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's really interesting and a bit surprising.
这真的很有趣，也有点令人惊讶。
I completely believe it as you say it, but that exposure therapy doesn't reduce your anxiety, per se.
我完全相信你所说的，但暴露疗法本身并不能减少你的焦虑。
It changes your beliefs about how other people are going to react.
它改变了你对其他人将如何反应的信念。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which indirectly-
这间接地——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
feeds back-
反馈-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and changes how you feel.
并改变你的感受。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Let me give you a story about somebody who I got connected to a little bit while I was writing this book.
让我给你讲一个关于我在写这本书时与我有一点联系的人的故事。
Jia Jiang is his name.
贾江是他的名字。
And Jia lives up in the Bay Area, well, at least he did at the time.
贾住在湾区，至少他当时是这样。
I think that's still where he is.
我想他仍然在那个地方。
He was an aspiring entrepreneur.
他是一位有抱负的企业家。
You can find him at rejectiontherapy.com, which is his website where he put this together.
您可以在rejectiontherapy.com 上找到他，这是他将这些内容整合在一起的网站。
He's got all these videos.
他有所有这些视频。
They're amazing.
他们太棒了。
He decided he was an aspiring entrepreneur, but he was afraid of rejection.
他认为自己是一名有抱负的企业家，但他害怕遭到拒绝。
And he decided he was going to cure himself of this fear of rejection by subjecting himself to exposure therapy.
他决定通过暴露疗法来治愈自己对拒绝的恐惧。
And he'd heard of this, that you do this for a month, the Stefan Hoffman work.
他听说过这个，你要做一个月，斯蒂芬·霍夫曼的工作。
He's going to try to make some outlandish request every day for a month and get rejected every day.
他将尝试在一个月内每天提出一些奇怪的要求，但每天都会被拒绝。
But because his anxiety was so bad, he needed more than a month.
但由于他的焦虑太严重，他需要一个多月的时间。
He needed 100 days.
他需要100天。
So he was 100 days in a row, he was going to ask somebody some ludicrous request so that he would get rejected, and then he was going to develop thick skin.
所以他连续100天，他会向某人提出一些可笑的要求，这样他就会被拒绝，然后他就会变得厚起来。
He was going to become immune to rejection.
他将对拒绝免疫。
He was going to toughen himself up.
他要让自己坚强起来。
He was going to desensitize himself.
他要让自己变得麻木。
First day, he goes up to a security guard, and he videotapes all these.
第一天，他去找保安，并录下了所有这些。
So you can find these online.
所以你可以在网上找到这些。
They're beautiful.
她们很漂亮。
He goes up to somebody at a bank, like a security guard outside of a bank, and he asks him, "Can I borrow $100 from you?" And the security guard says "That's not how this works, buddy." And so Jia walks away, "Ah, success.
他走到银行的某个人面前，就像银行外面的保安一样，然后问他：“我可以向你借 100 美元吗？”保安说：“伙计，事情不是这样的。”于是贾就走开了，“啊，成功了。
I got rejected." But then he says, "But it actually wasn't that bad." He thought the rejection was going to be harsh.
我被拒绝了。”但他随后说道：“但实际上并没有那么糟糕。”他认为拒绝会很严厉。
Middle fingers blazing, swear words coming, somebody punch him in the face, whatever.
中指在燃烧，脏话不断，有人打他的脸，等等。
He thought it was going to be harsh.
他认为这会很严厉。
It wasn't that bad.
事情并没有那么糟糕。
By the third day, he starts to fail.
到了第三天，他开始失败。
He goes into a Krispy Kreme donut store in Atlanta, goes up to the desk.
他走进亚特兰大的一家 Krispy Kreme 甜甜圈店，走到柜台前。
A woman named Jackie Braun is kind of managing the shift there that day.
那天，一位名叫杰基·布劳恩（Jackie Braun）的女士在那里负责值班。
She comes up, and he comes to the counter, and he says, "Can I get Krispy Kreme donuts in the shape of the Olympic rings?" Shape and color of the Olympic rings.
她走过来，他来到柜台前，说道：“我可以买奥运五环形状的 Krispy Kreme 甜甜圈吗？”奥林匹克五环的形状和颜色。
And he's thinking, oh, they're going to say, "Uh, we don't do that here." And instead, Jackie sits down, gets in her thinker pose, and starts drawing on a piece of paper what the Olympic rings are.
他在想，哦，他们会说，“呃，我们在这里不这样做。”相反，杰基坐下来，摆出她思考的姿势，开始在一张纸上画出奥运五环是什么。
What colors are they?
它们是什么颜色的？
We don't know.
我们不知道。
They're trying to figure this out.
他们正在努力解决这个问题。
Says, "Just wait a minute." Jia goes and sits down.
说：“等一下。”贾去坐。
15 minutes later, she comes out with a box of donuts, a little sheepishly because she thought she could've done better.
15 分钟后，她拿着一盒甜甜圈出来，有点不好意思，因为她认为自己可以做得更好。
And there are these Olympic rings that are amazing.
还有这些令人惊叹的奥运五环。
The voiceover on his video is something to the effect of, "And this is why humanity is worth saving." Over the course of his 100 days, he doubles up a few days.
他视频中的画外音大意是“这就是为什么人类值得拯救。”在他的 100 天里，他有几天加倍。
He ends up with, like, 106 requests.
他最终收到了大约 106 个请求。
We, Don Lyons, who was my lab manager at the time, went through and evaluated all of those requests that he posted, and we just asked, how often was he actually rejected?
我们，唐·莱昂斯，当时是我的实验室经理，仔细检查并评估了他发布的所有请求，我们只是问，他实际上被拒绝的频率有多少？
Walks up to a house in Texas and asked the guy at the house, "Would you take a picture of me playing soccer in your backyard?" Yeah.
走到德克萨斯州的一所房子前，问房子里的人：“你能给我拍一张我在你后院踢足球的照片吗？”是的。
Yes is the answer.
答案是肯定的。
There he is playing soccer.
他正在那里踢足球。
He walks up to a Southwest Airlines gate.
他走到西南航空公司的登机口。
He's getting on a plane.
他要上飞机了。
He says, "Can I do the security briefing at the beginning?" They says, "Well, you can't do that, but you can address the entire plane if you want." So there he is standing in front of the entire plane addressing this plane.
他说：“我可以先做安全简报吗？”他们说：“好吧，你不能这样做，但如果你愿意的话，你可以对整个飞机讲话。”所以他站在整个飞机前面，对这个飞机讲话。
He goes to another airport, a private airport, never flown a plane in his life.
他去了另一个机场，一个私人机场，他一生中从未驾驶过飞机。
He asked, "Can I co-pilot a plane?
他问道：“我可以当副驾驶飞机吗？
Can I do that?" Yeah, he does.
我可以这样做吗？”是的，他确实如此。
He gets it done.
他完成了。
Walks up to a woman's house.
走到一个女人的家里。
He's got a potted rose, pink rose.
他有一盆玫瑰，粉红玫瑰。
"Can I plant this in your front yard?" "Oh, I love roses.
“我可以把这个种在你的前院吗？” “哦，我喜欢玫瑰。
You bet.
你打赌。
Put it right there." He actually is rejected less often than he is accepted.
就放在那儿吧。”事实上，他被拒绝的次数比被接受的次数要少。
And we coded the videos for how negative they are.
我们根据视频的负面程度对视频进行编码。
Mostly not negative at all.
大多数情况下根本不是消极的。
Only about seven out of those 100 times is there any negativity whatsoever, and if anything, it's just slight.
这 100 次中只有大约 7 次有任何负面情绪，即使有的话，也只是轻微的。
Sometimes people can't do it.
有时人们做不到。
So he's accepted 51 times, if I remember right, and rejected 48 times.
如果我没记错的话，他接受了 51 次，拒绝了 48 次。
And then there are a few that are ambiguous, where he can't do the thing he asked for, but they do something else.
还有一些是模棱两可的，他不能做他要求的事情，但他们做了其他的事情。
But out of all those, only a few times is there any negativity.
但其中只有少数几次是消极的。
And when I was talking to him about this, he said, "I went into this thinking I was going to develop thicker skin.
当我和他谈论这件事时，他说：“我一开始就认为我的脸皮会变得更厚。
I lost my fear of rejection, but it was because I changed how I think about other people.
我不再害怕被拒绝，但这是因为我改变了对其他人的看法。
Other people are way kinder than I expect." And he talked about this now, this belief that he has as being a kind of superpower.
其他人比我想象的要友善得多。”他现在谈到了这一点，他相信自己拥有某种超能力。
Because he realizes that if you ask people for help, they are much more interested in trying to help you than you'd imagine.
因为他意识到，如果你向人们寻求帮助，他们比你想象的更愿意帮助你。
And that's why exposure to mistaken beliefs like our social anxiety works, because you learn that your beliefs are wrong.
这就是为什么接触诸如社交焦虑之类的错误信念会起作用，因为你知道你的信念是错误的。
But if you never test them, you never find out you'd be wrong.
但如果你从不测试它们，你永远不会发现你错了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How persistent was he?
他到底有多执着呢？
For instance, if he asked a question and the person said, "Mm, listen, you can't come in my backyard and play soccer." But maybe the front yard.
例如，如果他问一个问题，对方说：“嗯，听着，你不能到我的后院踢足球。”但也许是前院。
Would he say, "Backyard, please?"
他会说：“请问后院吗？”
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or if they said no outright-
或者如果他们直接拒绝——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
You know, he wa-
你知道，他是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Would he push?
他会推吗？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
He wasn't that persistent in these things.
他对这些事情并没有那么执着。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
And Jia's experience is very consistent with what we find in the research literature as well.
贾的经历也与我们在研究文献中发现的非常一致。
There's a phenomena, Frank Flynn and Vanessa Bohns, Franks is at Stanford, Vanessa is at Cornell, both fabulous researchers, documented this phenomena known as the underestimation of compliance effect, which is you ask people to predict what percentage of people, or how many people will agree to some request, and the very robust tendency is that they overestimate how many people they'll have to ask in order to get some number to agree to a request.
有一种现象，弗兰克·弗林（Frank Flynn）和凡妮莎·博恩斯（Vanessa Bohns），弗兰克斯在斯坦福大学，瓦妮莎在康奈尔大学，这两位出色的研究人员记录了这种被称为低估服从效应的现象，即你要求人们预测有多少人会同意某个请求，或者有多少人会同意某个请求，而非常明显的趋势是，他们高估了他们需要询问多少人才能让一定数量的人同意某个请求。
People are just much more likely to agree than you think.
人们同意的可能性比你想象的要大得多。
We find in our research that not only are they more willing to agree to the request, they also feel much better when they agree to help you than you would guess.
我们在研究中发现，他们不仅更愿意同意您的请求，而且当他们同意帮助您时，他们的感觉也比您想象的要好得多。
You ask somebody to take a picture of you down along the boardwalk in LA, right?
你要求有人在洛杉矶的木板路上给你拍一张照片，对吧？
You think you're pestering somebody, right?
你认为你在纠缠别人，对吗？
You're being a burden to them.
你正在成为他们的负担。
They're usually happier to have helped you, because we are happier when we are being kind to other people.
他们通常会更高兴帮助你，因为当我们善待他人时我们会更高兴。
So, Jia's result is consistent with all of this work.
所以，贾的结果与所有这些工作是一致的。
In his videos, he was not that persistent, but he would often accept other alternatives.
在他的视频中，他并不那么执着，但他经常会接受其他选择。
So he goes into Costco one time, goes up to the manager, he says, "I love Costco.
有一次他走进好市多，走到经理面前，他说：“我喜欢好市多。
It's just my favorite store.
这只是我最喜欢的商店。
Can I go on the intercom and tell the entire store how much I love Costco and how fabulous I think you all are?" And the manager says, "Well, I can't let you do that, but we can go get lunch over here at the pizza shop that's in Costco, and we can spend some time talking." And so he comps him a lunch, and he gets a free lunch out of it.
我可以通过对讲机告诉整个商店我有多爱 Costco，以及我认为你们有多棒吗？”经理说：“好吧，我不能让你这么做，但我们可以去 Costco 的披萨店吃午饭，我们可以花点时间谈谈。”所以他给了他一顿午餐，他从中得到了一顿免费的午餐。
That's what he does.
这就是他所做的。
So there were a few...
于是就有了几...
And like on the Southwest Airlines thing, he couldn't do the security briefing.
就像西南航空公司的事情一样，他无法进行安全简报。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
But he could just address the whole plane flight, which is what he did.
但他可以在整个飞机飞行过程中发表讲话，这就是他所做的。
Right?
正确的？
So he would accept those, and those were the few cases where it wasn't outright accepted.
所以他会接受这些，而这些是少数没有被完全接受的情况。
But if he got a no, he said thank you, and that was it.
但如果他得到了拒绝，他就会说谢谢，仅此而已。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't want to give anyone social anxiety- ...
我不想给任何人带来社交焦虑-...
because you just provided a wonderful, or I don't want to discourage anyone from doing what you just described, because it's a really both entertaining and beautiful example of the goodness of humanity-
因为你刚刚提供了一个精彩的，或者我不想阻止任何人做你刚才描述的事情，因为这确实是一个既有趣又美丽的人性善良的例子-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
really being a fundamental feature of most-
确实是大多数的基本特征
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Or surprisingly fundamental.
或者说是令人惊讶的根本性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
So it's not the case that everybody's always nice to you.
所以并不是每个人都对你总是好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Of course not.
当然不是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
But it tends to go, he thought he'd be rejected-
但事情往往会这样，他以为自己会被拒绝——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
...
...
100 days in a row.
连续100天。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yep.
是的。
Yep.
是的。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
He wasn't.
他不是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You have data.
你有数据。
I just have an anecdote.
我只是有一个轶事。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the fact that I'm going to tell you that a piece of that anecdote comes from a neurologist does not mean it has any more validity than-
因此，我要告诉你的这个轶事的一部分来自神经科医生，这一事实并不意味着它比——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Okay
好的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
maybe even less.
也许甚至更少。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That was a joke against my neurology.
这是对我的神经病学的一个玩笑。
I have great jokes about neurologists, by the way.
顺便说一句，我有关于神经科医生的好笑话。
I could do an entire podcast about the jokes against the different divisions of medicine.
我可以制作一个关于针对不同医学部门的笑话的完整播客。
Maybe I'll do that sometime.
也许有一天我会这么做。
We should do that, Rob.
我们应该这样做，罗布。
So I had a postdoc advisor.
所以我有一个博士后顾问。
Unfortunately, he passed, but that's not the point here.
不幸的是，他通过了，但这不是重点。
He was a neurologist, and he was an extremely friendly person.
他是一名神经科医生，而且是一个非常友好的人。
His name was Ben Barris.
他的名字叫本·巴里斯。
He used to walk down the hall.
他常常沿着大厅走。
He'd say, "Hi," to the janitors.
他会对看门人说“嗨”。
He'd say-
他会说——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
he was always very good about bringing things to the admins up front.
他总是很擅长将事情提前告知管理员。
You and I both know they are underpaid-
你和我都知道他们的工资过低-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
at all universities.
在所有大学。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They are truly...
他们确实是...
People always say, "Oh, all the administrators." Well, you got high-level administrators-
人们总是说：“哦，所有的管理员。”好吧，你有高级管理人员-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I'm not going to comment on what they make.
我不会评论他们所做的事情。
I don't know.
我不知道。
But-
但是——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
A lot
很多
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but all the administrators at the level of the front office, et cetera, they're underpaid, they're overworked.
但所有前台级别的管理人员等等，他们的薪水过低，而且工作过度。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He was just an extremely kind person.
他只是一个非常善良的人。
He was just very outgoing and...
他只是非常外向而且...
But he was a neurologist in addition to being a scientist, and he pointed something out, which was that there would be some people that he would interact with on campus, and we were adjacent to the hospital, so this plays in, who you'd be friendly to.
但他除了是一名科学家之外，还是一名神经科医生，他指出了一些事情，那就是他会在校园里与一些人互动，而我们毗邻医院，所以这会影响你对谁友好。
Like, "Hey, how's it going?" And they'd say, "Hey, what do you do here?" And you'd say, "Oh, well, we work on neuronal-glial interactions, activity-dependent development of myelination." And they go, "Oh, cool." Like, "What's that?" And you'd have a little exchange, then move on.
就像，“嘿，怎么样？”他们会说：“嘿，你在这里做什么？”你会说，“哦，好吧，我们研究神经元-胶质细胞相互作用，活动依赖性髓鞘形成的发育。”他们说：“哦，太酷了。”就像，“那是什么？”你们会进行一些交流，然后继续前进。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Healthy.
健康。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're learning.
他们正在学习。
They realize academics-
他们意识到学术界——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
aren't just trying to hide their information-
不仅仅是试图隐藏他们的信息-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
no matter how busy they are.
不管他们有多忙。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Somebody just taking time out of their busy pace to stop and have an interaction with you.
有人只是从忙碌的节奏中抽出时间停下来与您互动。
This is something that I grew up observing in my mom, and it's something that I just naturally do and enjoy.
这是我从小到大在我妈妈身上观察到的事情，也是我自然而然地做和享受的事情。
So it's a lot of what you described before.
所以这就是你之前描述的很多内容。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I'll never forget Ben once telling me, he said, "See this guy coming down the hall?
但我永远不会忘记本有一次告诉我，他说：“看到这个人从大厅走过来了吗？
He's sticky." And I said, "What's sticky?" And he said- ...
他很粘人。”我说：“什么是粘性的？”他说——...
"That's neurologist speak for the person that takes that kind of casual exchange and makes the assumption that you're a lot closer than you actually are."
“这是神经学家对那些进行这种随意交流并假设你们比实际情况更接近的人的说法。”
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And as somebody with a sister, you grow up hearing stories of like, you hear through the wall, like, "Oh, some good-looking guy asked for her number," excited about that.
作为一个有姐妹的人，你长大后会听到这样的故事，你透过墙壁听到，比如，“哦，某个好看的男人要了她的电话号码，”对此感到兴奋。
But some other guy, he was pretty persistent-
但另外一个人，他却相当执着——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and he wouldn't go away.
他不会离开。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes, right, yes.
是的，对的，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not talking about full stalker situation.
我不是在谈论完全跟踪者的情况。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Right.
对。
No, I understand.
不，我明白。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That exists, too.
这也是存在的。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I think a lot of social anxiety comes from some people just don't know where the line is between normal, healthy, casual social exchange-
所以我认为很多社交焦虑来自于一些人不知道正常、健康、随意的社交交流之间的界限在哪里——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah, yeah
是啊是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and being too sticky.
而且太粘了。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this takes us back to the eyes.
这让我们回到眼睛。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'll never forget freshman year of college, forgive me for weaving in a second anecdote.
我永远不会忘记大学一年级，请原谅我编织了第二个轶事。
I had a roommate.
我有一个室友。
We were triple room, but I had a roommate, and feedback from people around us, they're like, "What's wrong with your roommate?" I'm like, "What do you mean?
我们是三人间，但我有一个室友，我们周围人的反馈是，“你的室友怎么了？”我说：“你什么意思？
He's a perfectly nice guy.
他是一个非常好的人。
He's super nice." And they're like, "No, he stares at people." And I thought, "Oh." And he was very, very tall.
他超级好。”他们就像，“不，他盯着别人看。”我想，“哦。”而且他非常非常高。
And I'm reasonably tall, but he was like really, really tall.
我相当高，但他真的非常非常高。
And so I started noticing when we would stand in groups, he would just beam people.
所以我开始注意到，当我们站在一起时，他只会向人们微笑。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so I pulled him aside and I said, "Hey, listen, Dave.
于是我把他拉到一边说：“嘿，听着，戴夫。
You can't stare at people." He goes, "I'm just looking at them." And I'm like, "I know, but you can't stare at people."
你不能盯着人看。”他说：“我只是看着他们。”我说：“我知道，但你不能盯着别人看。”
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
It's too much, yeah.
太多了，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"You're creeping people out."
“你让人们感到害怕。”
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, where should I look?
好吧，我该看哪里？
Now, he might've been a little bit on the spectrum.
现在，他可能已经有点陷入困境了。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We didn't have that language or understanding-
我们没有那种语言或理解-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
about spectrum back then.
关于当时的频谱。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I explained to him, I was like, "Just keep your gaze moving-
但我向他解释说，我想，“只要保持你的目光移动——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and stop." And we all loved him.
然后停下来。”我们都爱他。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And he became part of our social circle.
他成了我们社交圈的一部分。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Right.
对。
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But in those first weeks of-
但在最初几周——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
he was a little bit-
他有点——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
he was giving people-
他正在给人们——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
an uneasy feeling.
一种不安的感觉。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I think for a lot of people who have social anxiety, their concern is that they're going to be perceived as kind of creepy-
所以我认为对于很多有社交焦虑的人来说，他们担心的是他们会被认为有点令人毛骨悚然——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or sticky, and no one wants to be that person.
或者粘人，没有人想成为那样的人。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Right.
正确的。
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so it is an art.
所以它是一门艺术。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It is a-
它是一个-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
For sure
当然
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a learning to-
学习-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
For sure
当然
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
understand that a fist bump is one thing-
明白碰拳是一回事——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but just because you see that person again the next day, you remember their name, you're not best friends.
但仅仅因为你第二天再次见到那个人，你就记住了他们的名字，你们就不是最好的朋友。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you're not even really friends.
而且你们甚至都不是真正的朋友。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're being friendly.
你很友善。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm not trying to contaminate the positive waters here.
我并不想污染这里的积极水域。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I think a lot of people don't know how to develop this skill as a honed skill.
但我认为很多人不知道如何将这项技能发展为一项磨练技能。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they're really afraid, and I think it's not about someone calling the police because somebody's-
他们真的很害怕，我认为这不是有人报警，因为有人——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
being too sticky, but-
太粘了，但是——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
yeah, if somebody doesn't call you back, they probably don't want you to ping them a third time.
是的，如果有人没有给你回电话，他们可能不希望你第三次给他们打电话。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Or text you again.
或者再给你发短信。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think it always seems to sort of immediately deflect to men doing this to women.
我认为男性对女性做这种事似乎总是会立即转移到男性身上。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I can tell you, a lot of women do this, too.
我可以告诉你，很多女性也这样做。
So it's independent of sex, right?
所以它与性别无关，对吗？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If somebody doesn't respond a third time, and it was a first-time meeting, and regardless of what the exchange was, translation, they don't want to continue the exchange for whatever reason.
如果有人第三次没有回复，而且这是第一次会议，无论交流是什么，翻译，他们都不想继续交流，无论出于何种原因。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so how do you reconcile that when giving advice for people to be more outgoing?
那么，在为人们提供更加外向的建议时，您如何协调这一点呢？
How do you keep people from being sticky?
如何让人们不粘人？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
I guess there's another way to think about it, too, is that a lot of sensitivity or concern about social anxiety is about running into sticky people.
我想还有另一种思考方式，那就是，对社交焦虑的很多敏感性或担忧都是因为遇到了粘人。
And there, I think, there probably is a gender difference, a sex difference, that women are likely to be more nervous about men misinterpreting something in a way that might become problematic or threatening for them.
我认为，这可能存在性别差异，女性可能会更紧张，因为男性会误解某些事情，从而可能对她们造成问题或威胁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Well, because of physical danger.
嗯，因为身体危险。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
And so I'm super sensitive to that.
所以我对此非常敏感。
And our data don't suggest that you should be ignoring risks or your senses about what's risky.
我们的数据并不表明您应该忽视风险或您对风险的感觉。
But our data suggests that your sense about risk is off a little bit, and there are times where you might want to test some of those beliefs, and you might find some places where you're mistaken.
但我们的数据表明，您对风险的感觉有点偏差，有时您可能想要测试其中一些信念，并且您可能会发现一些地方是错误的。
I think the important thing from my perspective on this is that if you're really pessimistic about other people, it never gets corrected.
我认为从我的角度来看，重要的是，如果你对其他人真的很悲观，那么它永远不会得到纠正。
You never get to find the great people to have a conversation with, right?
你永远找不到可以交谈的好人，对吧？
But it does also mean that you will sometimes run into the people who aren't so great to have a conversation with, and you need to learn how to move on from those people, right?
但这也意味着你有时会遇到那些不太适合交谈的人，你需要学习如何摆脱这些人，对吗？
We're not friends with everybody.
我们不是每个人的朋友。
Certainly, that is true.
当然，这是真的。
But the other thing that you mentioned was the importance of this being a skill.
但你提到的另一件事是这项技能的重要性。
It is something that you learn to do as you practice.
这是你在练习时学会做的事情。
I have become a better conversationalist.
我变得更健谈了。
I've become a better public speaker.
我已经成为一名更好的公共演讲者。
I've become better at doing this because I do it for a living, right?
我变得更擅长做这件事，因为我以此为生，对吗？
And I choose to try to do it and try to become better.
我选择尝试去做并努力变得更好。
And I try to be, when I'm interacting with other people, to be sensitive to them as well.
当我与其他人互动时，我也尝试对他们保持敏感。
Our data don't suggest that you should be reaching out to other people in order to make yourself feel good.
我们的数据并不表明您应该与其他人接触以使自己感觉良好。
Our data suggests that what feels good is when you take an interest in other people, and you open them up to you in a way that you would've avoided or missed before, and you'll just have a lot more positive experiences that way.
我们的数据表明，当你对其他人感兴趣，并以你以前避免或错过的方式向你敞开心扉时，感觉良好，这样你就会获得更多积极的体验。
But it does mean being sensitive to how they respond.
但这确实意味着对他们的反应保持敏感。
And you do learn to do this over time with practice.
随着时间的推移，你确实会通过练习学会做到这一点。
Just like anything, you get better with practice, right?
就像任何事情一样，通过练习你会变得更好，对吧？
And so for folks who are concerned about starting or trying, my suggestion is just like when you're starting anything that you're nervous about or hard, you never exercised.
因此，对于那些担心开始或尝试的人来说，我的建议就像当你开始任何你感到紧张或困难的事情时，你从来没有锻炼过一样。
The prescription is always to start small.
处方总是从小处开始。
Pick a little thing that's easy and safe.
选择一件既简单又安全的小事。
You know that person in the office who you've seen for years, but you don't know their name?
您认识办公室里那个已经见过多年的人，但您不知道他们的名字？
Just go and say hi to them.
去跟他们打个招呼吧。
Just see how that goes.
看看情况如何。
And then try that with somebody else.
然后和其他人一起尝试一下。
Those are easy.
这些都很容易。
Those are safe.
那些是安全的。
That's not that difficult.
那并不是那么困难。
And you'll get better at this over time, including figuring out how to do things like end conversations with somebody who's too sticky or to move along or like your advisor did, to recognize the person that's sticky, and then you can manage that a little bit differently.
随着时间的推移，你会在这方面做得更好，包括弄清楚如何做一些事情，比如结束与太粘性的人的对话，或者像你的顾问那样继续前进，识别粘性的人，然后你可以稍微不同地处理它。
Those are skills you develop by approaching.
这些是你通过接近而发展的技能。
You don't develop them by avoiding, and you miss a lot of people who are wonderful.
你不会通过回避来发展它们，你会错过很多很棒的人。
My Uber driver, right?
我的优步司机，对吗？
The young man, Gustavo, on my train ride yesterday morning.
昨天早上我乘坐火车时的那个年轻人，古斯塔沃。
Brian on my flight here, to speak with you today on my plane last night.
布莱恩在我的航班上，昨晚在我的飞机上与您交谈。
You miss a lot of great people, too, and that's what we find in our research that I think is perhaps the bigger cost.
你也会错过很多伟大的人，这就是我们在研究中发现的，我认为这可能是更大的成本。
And just like Jia found, he missed opportunities to get help from other people and even to allow people to feel better for helping him because he was too afraid to ask.
正如贾发现的那样，他错过了获得其他人帮助的机会，甚至错过了让人们因帮助他而感觉更好的机会，因为他太害怕而不敢提出请求。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, LMNT.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 LMNT。
LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.
LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。
That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar.
这意味着电解质、钠、镁和钾的比例都正确，但不含糖。
Proper hydration is critical for brain and body function.
适当的水合作用对于大脑和身体功能至关重要。
Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish your cognitive and physical performance.
即使是轻微程度的脱水也会降低您的认知和身体表现。
It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes.
获得充足的电解质也很重要。
The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are vital for the functioning of all cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells.
电解质（钠、镁和钾）对于体内所有细胞（尤其是神经元或神经细胞）的功能至关重要。
Drinking LMNT makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes.
饮用 LMNT 可以轻松确保您获得足够的水分和电解质。
My days tend to start really fast, meaning I have to jump right into work or right into exercise.
我的日子往往开始得很快，这意味着我必须立即投入工作或立即锻炼。
So to make sure that I'm hydrated and I have sufficient electrolytes, when I first wake up in the morning, I drink 16 to 32 ounces of water with an LMNT packet dissolved in it.
因此，为了确保我有足够的水分和足够的电解质，当我早上第一次醒来时，我会喝 16 至 32 盎司的水，其中溶解有 LMNT 包。
I also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes.
我还会在进行任何体育锻炼时饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT，尤其是在炎热的日子里，当我大量出汗并失去水和电解质时。
LMNT has a bunch of great-tasting flavors.
LMNT 有很多美味的口味。
In fact, I love them all.
事实上，我爱他们所有人。
I love the watermelon, the raspberry, the citrus, and I really love the lemonade flavor.
我喜欢西瓜、覆盆子、柑橘，而且我真的很喜欢柠檬水的味道。
So if you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with any purchase.
因此，如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman，购买任意商品即可领取免费的 LMNT 样品包。
Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.
再次强调，请访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman 索取免费样品包。
A lot of people are on their phones texting with people they already know.
很多人都在用手机与他们认识的人发短信。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They have an established relationship.
他们已经建立了关系。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Presumably, they're continuing to maintain, if not build those relationships-
据推测，他们将继续维持（如果不是建立）这些关系——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
by doing that.
通过这样做。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
For sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think that, going back to this eye gaze thing from earlier, eyes down into a little box-
我认为，回到之前的眼神凝视，眼睛向下看向一个小盒子——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
thicker shell to break through.
更厚的外壳才能突破。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
It is.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
I don't think any of us really feel comfortable interrupting somebody texting or on a call.
我认为我们中的任何人都不愿意打扰别人发短信或打电话。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Right.
对。
Correct.
正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, I wouldn't do that.
我的意思是，我不会那样做。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
You would think of it as bad manners, impolite.
你会认为这是不礼貌、不礼貌的行为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, they're clearly in a conversation with somebody else.
是的，他们显然正在与其他人交谈。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The same way I wouldn't just-
同样的，我不会只是-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
For sure
当然
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
walk up and interrupt.
走上前去打断。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Actually, yesterday I was at a social gathering, there was like three people talking, and these guys all knew each other.
事实上，昨天我在一个社交聚会上，好像有三个人在说话，而且这些人都互相认识。
I was the stranger in the group, and you sort of learn, you have to quickly assess what is this conversation?
我是小组中的陌生人，你必须快速评估这次谈话是什么？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I said, "Sorry, I don't know if I'm interrupting something critical-"
所以我说，“抱歉，我不知道我是否打扰了一些重要的事情——”
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
"but if so, I'm going to stand right here." No, I just said, "If I'm interrupting, I..." And they're like, "No, no, no." You have to be able to know how to-
“但如果是这样，我就站在这里。”不，我只是说，“如果我打扰了，我……”他们就像，“不，不，不。”你必须能够知道如何-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
break into a conversation.
插话。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's very hard when people are on their phones.
当人们使用手机时，这非常困难。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
It can be.
可以的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
The way I think of it is you're giving people an invitation.
我的想法是你向人们发出邀请。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
I got off the train one morning, there was this guy, came up behind me.
一天早上我下了火车，有一个人出现在我身后。
I remember this very distinctly.
这件事我记得很清楚。
He was a little taller than I was.
他比我高一点。
So I'm about 6 foot.
所以我大约6英尺。
He was probably 6 foot 3.
他大概身高 6 英尺 3 英寸。
Looks like an Orthodox monk, right?
看起来像一个东正教僧侣，对吧？
He's got this big long beard, graying beard, long hair.
他留着又大又长的胡子，灰白的胡子，长长的头发。
Looks like the last thing he would want to do is talk to another person.
看起来他最不想做的事情就是和另一个人说话。
A very stern, kind of dead, off-to-work face.
一张非常严肃、死气沉沉、下班后的脸。
And, I saw him come up, sidle up next to me.
然后，我看到他走过来，侧身靠近我。
He had already put his left earbud in, and he was putting his right earbud in at the same time, right?
他已经把左耳机塞进去了，同时也在把右耳机塞进去吧？
It would've been easy for me to infer that he didn't want to talk to me, right?
我很容易推断出他不想和我说话，对吗？
But of course, nobody was talking to him either.
当然，也没有人跟他说话。
Nobody's talking.
没人说话。
And so that signal was a little ambiguous.
所以这个信号有点模糊。
What does it mean?
这是什么意思？
Does he want to talk to me?
他想和我说话吗？
It's not clear.
目前还不清楚。
He could be putting his earbud in because nobody's talking to him.
他可能会戴上耳机，因为没有人与他说话。
He doesn't think other people want to talk to him, so he's just going to get off to work, right?
他觉得其他人不想和他说话，所以他就去上班吧？
Get away from all these jerks.
远离所有这些混蛋。
I turned to him, I said, "Hi, I'm Nick." Most powerful words you have in your life.
我转向他，说道：“嗨，我是尼克。”你生命中最有力的话语。
"Hi, I'm whoever you are.
“嗨，无论你是谁，我都是。
I'm Nick." He took out his earbud, and he turned to me, and he just came alive like I was flipping a switch on his back.
我是尼克。”他拿出耳塞，转向我，他就像我在按动他背上的开关一样活跃起来。
Huge smile.
灿烂的笑容。
"Hi, I'm Thibault." Turns out he was French, very strong French accent.
“嗨，我是蒂博。”原来他是法国人，法国口音很重。
We became friends over the years, right?
这么多年我们成了朋友，对吗？
We walked down four blocks to my office there.
我们沿着四个街区步行到我在那里的办公室。
And so sometimes these cues can be ambiguous, and you don't know what the cue means until you test it.
因此，有时这些提示可能是不明确的，除非您进行测试，否则您不知道这些提示的含义。
So the way I think about reaching out to connect with other people, to test our fears, right, our anxiety, our interpretations of other people, knowing that we can make mistakes with each other, is to think of it as an invitation, right?
因此，我认为与其他人建立联系，测试我们的恐惧，对吧，我们的焦虑，我们对他人的解释，知道我们可能会彼此犯错误，我认为这是一种邀请，对吗？
When I turned to Gustavo yesterday, Brian last night, my Uber driver this morning, I wasn't demanding anything.
当我昨天向古斯塔沃、昨晚向布莱恩求助、今天早上向我的优步司机求助时，我并没有提出任何要求。
I was offering up an opportunity and invitation to connect if they wanted to, right?
如果他们愿意的话，我会提供一个联系的机会和邀请，对吗？
Didn't have to pull their earbud out.
不必拔出耳塞。
Brian last night had a little video game player in front of him, right?
昨晚布莱恩面前有一个小电子游戏玩家，对吧？
I thought maybe he wanted to play video games.
我想也许他想玩电子游戏。
No, he was happy to talk, right?
不，他很高兴说话，对吗？
We kind of went in and out.
我们有点进进出出。
I had a manuscript review I had to do.
我必须进行手稿审阅。
But if you start thinking of these opportunities as potential places where you might be misunderstanding somebody, and don't take your beliefs about another person for granted, but treat them as bets that might be wrong, well, then you start to see places where maybe you'd made a mistake, and you give people an opportunity to show you, no. Thibault would've been happy to talk to me.
但是，如果你开始将这些机会视为你可能会误解某人的潜在机会，并且不要将你对另一个人的信念视为理所当然，而是将它们视为可能是错误的赌注，那么你就会开始看到你可能犯了错误的地方，并且你给人们一个机会向你表明，不。蒂博会很乐意与我交谈。
We became friends over years, just because I was willing to test that initial belief I had, which was mistaken, that he didn't want to talk to me.
我们多年来成为朋友，只是因为我愿意检验我最初的信念，即他不想和我说话，这是错误的。
And the problem that at least we find over and over again in our social lives is all too often we infer immediately, we have overly pessimistic expectations about how other people will respond to us when we try, and we just miss opportunities to connect with other people that we could have across the moments of our days, weeks, months, years of our lives that would just enrich our lives in lots of ways if we were willing to test those barriers that were keeping us from connecting with other people to see if, are they made out of steel or is it a pasta noodle?
至少我们在社交生活中一再发现的问题是，我们常常会立即推断，当我们尝试时，我们对别人会如何回应我们抱有过于悲观的期望，我们只是错过了与其他人建立联系的机会，而这些机会是我们在生命中的每一天、几周、几个月、几年的时刻都可以拥有的，如果我们愿意测试那些阻碍我们与他人建立联系的障碍，看看它们是用钢铁做的还是用钢做的，这些障碍就会在很多方面丰富我们的生活。面条？
Sometimes they're pasta noodles.
有时它们是意大利面。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The data I've seen suggests that more and more people are going to church.
我看到的数据表明越来越多的人去教堂。
They're attending other religious gatherings.
他们正在参加其他宗教聚会。
It seems that-
看来——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
In just recent years-
就在最近几年——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Recently
最近
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
...
...
specifically.
具体来说。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, yeah, it's really on the upswing.
哦，是的，确实是在上升。
And my guess is there are a number of reasons for that.
我的猜测是有很多原因。
People want to meet people with a certain set of values.
人们希望结识具有特定价值观的人。
Maybe they are drinking less.
也许他们喝得少了。
Who knows?
谁知道？
I think a component of those types of gatherings are that people generally are pretty friendly.
我认为这类聚会的一个组成部分是人们通常都非常友好。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's pretty inviting, right?
这很吸引人，对吧？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, people still go to festivals, too.
我的意思是，人们仍然会去参加节日。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I didn't go, but Coachella was recently.
我没去，但科切拉音乐节最近去了。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And people tend to be in a good mood at festivals.
而且在节日里人们往往心情很好。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
I was at TED last week.
上周我参加了 TED。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
And it was very friendly.
而且非常友好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A very good example.
一个很好的例子。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, so we could pepper with different examples, and I think it is important to do so.
是的，所以我们可以举出不同的例子，我认为这样做很重要。
I didn't want to imply it was just churches.
我不想暗示这只是教堂。
But these kinds of common gatherings where people are there-
但人们在那里的这些常见聚会——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for their own reasons, but also to interact with others-
为了自己的原因，也为了与他人互动——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Absolutely
绝对
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
including strangers.
包括陌生人。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think this, in my mind, can be pretty well explained by the fact that people were indoors during the pandemic.
我认为，在我看来，这可以通过人们在大流行期间呆在室内这一事实得到很好的解释。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A lot of people were anyway, and-
无论如何，很多人都是这样的，而且——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
everyone's on their phones more and devices.
每个人都更多地使用手机和设备。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So attending venues where there's clearly an impulse towards interacting with strangers.
因此，去那些明显有与陌生人互动冲动的场所。
Actually, sauna gatherings are really big-
其实桑拿聚会真的很大——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in major cities.
在主要城市。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People not just sitting in a sauna-
人们不只是坐在桑拿房里——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
facing out like on bleachers-
面朝外，就像在露天看台上一样——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but in a round-
但在一轮中——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and doing breathwork, and-
做呼吸练习，然后-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
so and on and on.
如此等等。
So, it's interesting.
所以，这很有趣。
I think people really crave this.
我认为人们真的很渴望这个。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Earlier, we talked a little bit about your family and adoption.
早些时候，我们谈论了一些关于你的家庭和收养的事情。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And, I've heard you say in a previous podcast that you have a child or children who are particularly outgoing.
而且，我听你在之前的播客中说过，你有一个或多个特别外向的孩子。
And so-
所以——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
Our youngest.
我们最小的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, so if you're willing, would you share a little bit about that?
是的，如果你愿意的话，你能分享一下吗？
It's a very-
这是一个非常-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
interesting and I think important example into, well, differences among humans.
有趣，我认为这是了解人类差异的重要例子。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And sometimes we think of differences as good/bad.
有时我们认为差异是好是坏。
In this case, it was clearly an example of how some people, by virtue of being more outgoing, having less fear, actually afford themselves and others a uniquely wonderful experience of life.
在这个例子中，这显然是一个例子，说明一些人如何凭借更外向、更少的恐惧，实际上为自己和他人提供了独特的美好生活体验。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
So our youngest daughter, Lindsay, has Down syndrome.
我们最小的女儿林赛患有唐氏综合症。
And we adopted Lindsay from China The research that I've been doing over the last 15 or so years with my collaborators, where we're finding over and over again how overly pessimistic we are about how other people will respond to us when we reach out to connect with them, has just really changed the way I live my life.
我们采用了来自中国的 Lindsay 的研究，在过去 15 年左右的时间里，我和我的合作者一直在进行这项研究，我们一次又一次地发现，当我们主动与他人联系时，我们对别人的反应过于悲观，这确实改变了我的生活方式。
It is sometimes hard to take behavioral science research and apply it to individual lives, but in my own life, I've seen ways to do this over and over again by testing some of these barriers and just being more open to reaching out and connect, realizing it's going to be more positive than I might imagine.
有时很难进行行为科学研究并将其应用到个人生活中，但在我自己的生活中，我已经找到了一遍又一遍地做到这一点的方法，通过测试其中一些障碍，并更加开放地接触和联系，意识到这将比我想象的更积极。
So, about 10 years ago, my wife-- this is how this all got us to Lindsay in the end, and it came right through our research.
所以，大约 10 年前，我的妻子——这就是我们最终找到 Lindsay 的原因，它是通过我们的研究得出的。
I remember this so vividly.
这件事我记得很清楚。
My wife, we were three months into a pregnancy.
我的妻子，我们怀孕三个月了。
We had named our daughter Sophie at that point.
那时我们给女儿取名为索菲。
We had had four kids by that time.
那时我们已经有四个孩子了。
We were open to more life, and Jen was open.
我们对更多的生活持开放态度，珍也持开放态度。
And three months into the pregnancy, we learned our daughter had Down syndrome.
怀孕三个月后，我们得知女儿患有唐氏综合症。
And my response to that was to be very pessimistic.
我对此的反应是非常悲观的。
I was uncertain.
我不确定。
I didn't know how this-- This was not where my mind was.
我不知道这是怎么回事——这不是我的心思所在。
I wasn't thinking that we'd be raising a child when we're in our 40s with Down syndrome.
我没想到我们在 40 多岁患有唐氏综合症的时候还要抚养孩子。
This was going to be hard.
这会很难。
I know, though, how easy it is to misunderstand how you'd respond in a situation you're not in.
但我知道，在你不在的情况下，你很容易误解自己的反应。
And so my wife and I, and I'm not speaking for my wife's thoughts.
所以我和我的妻子，我并不是代表我妻子的想法。
My wife Jen is an angel.
我的妻子珍是一个天使。
She's an amazing human being.
她是一个了不起的人。
As my college football coach said when he learned that I was going to ask her to marry me when I was a junior in college, he said, "Nick, you're marrying up." And he was absolutely right about that, marrying up.
正如我的大学橄榄球教练所说，当他得知我要在大学三年级时向她求婚时，他说：“尼克，你要结婚了。”他在结婚这件事上绝对是对的。
But for me, I was nervous about this.
但对我来说，我对此感到紧张。
We started calling families who were raising kids with Down syndrome, every one of those families, trying to get their perspective, to learn what it would be like to be in the situation we weren't in.
我们开始给抚养患有唐氏综合症的孩子的家庭打电话，试图了解他们的观点，了解如果我们没有处于这种情况会是什么样子。
To a person, those families referred to their children with Down syndrome as a blessing.
对于一个人来说，这些家庭将患有唐氏综合症的孩子视为一种祝福。
It was almost like they were reading off of a script.
这几乎就像他们在朗读剧本一样。
It was amazing to hear their stories about how their children, who did not have much social anxiety, were very open and loving and were like magnets in their family that everybody flocked around.
听到他们的故事真是太棒了，他们的孩子没有太多的社交焦虑，非常开放和充满爱心，就像家里的磁石一样，每个人都聚集在一起。
They just brought joy and love and a broader view of what humanity could do with each other than they'd ever imagined before.
他们带来了欢乐和爱，以及对人类可以如何相处的更广阔的视野，这是他们以前从未想象过的。
Just enriched their lives, broadened their worldview in ways they couldn't have anticipated, was a blessing.
仅仅以他们无法预料的方式丰富了他们的生活，拓宽了他们的世界观，就是一种祝福。
Six months into our pregnancy, Sophie died.
我们怀孕六个月后，索菲去世了。
So children with Down syndrome face a much higher risk of miscarriage or stillbirth.
因此，患有唐氏综合症的儿童面临更高的流产或死产风险。
Six months was a stillbirth.
六个月是死产。
July 11th, 2016, our daughter died.
2016年7月11日，我们的女儿去世了。
It was horrible.
太可怕了。
It was the worst experience in our marriage we had ever had.
这是我们婚姻中最糟糕的经历。
We mourned that loss for a good long stretch.
我们为这次损失哀悼了很长一段时间。
It was about a year.
大约有一年了。
One morning, I went into the sunroom.
一天早上，我走进日光浴室。
My wife was sitting there.
我的妻子坐在那里。
We had two chairs there.
我们那里有两把椅子。
She was sitting in this chair where she always sits.
她坐在这张她常坐的椅子上。
And I said, "Honey, we were ready to have another baby.
我说：“亲爱的，我们已经准备好再生一个孩子了。
We could do this again.
我们可以再做一次。
There are children out there who need parents.
外面有一些孩子需要父母。
We've adopted two before.
我们之前领养过两只。
We know how this goes.
我们知道这是怎么回事。
We can do this again." We were ready.
我们可以再做一次。”我们准备好了。
We were in the starting blocks.
我们处于起跑线上。
We were ready to go.
我们准备出发了。
And she turned to me and she said, "Would you be open to adopting a child with Down syndrome?" Had not even occurred to me that that was something we could do.
她转向我说：“你愿意收养一个患有唐氏综合症的孩子吗？”我什至没有想到这是我们可以做的事情。
I hadn't thought about it.
我没有想过。
My head was not there.
我的头不在那儿。
All over again, I was back where I was three months before, thinking, "I don't know that we can do this.
再次，我又回到了三个月前的状态，心想：“我不知道我们能做到这一点。
This is going to be super hard." And then, if you're a researcher, you do think about your data all the time.
这将非常困难。”然后，如果您是一名研究人员，您确实会一直考虑您的数据。
I started thinking again about where we were three months ago, calling all these families who talked about their kids as blessings.
我再次开始思考三个月前我们的处境，称所有这些谈论自己孩子的家庭都是祝福。
All this data, thousands and thousands of data points.
所有这些数据，成千上万的数据点。
By this point, as I'm talking to you now, we've run over 30,000 people in over 120 experiments, people reaching out to others, documenting ways in which they're underestimating how positively others will respond.
到目前为止，正如我现在与您交谈的那样，我们已经对 30,000 多人进行了 120 多项实验，人们与他人接触，记录了他们低估他人反应积极程度的方式。
They're making the choice to hold back too often rather than reaching out and engaging, connecting with other people too much.
他们经常选择退缩，而不是伸出援手和参与，与其他人联系太多。
And here we had this choice right in front of us.
在这里，我们面临着这个选择。
My wife was offering it.
我的妻子提供了它。
Do we reach out and bring this child into our lives, this stranger, or not?
我们是否伸出援手，将这个陌生的孩子带入我们的生活？
And I was full of doubt here, all the same kind of doubt.
我对此充满了怀疑，都是同样的怀疑。
How would she respond to us?
她会怎样回应我们呢？
Our data, though, gave me some courage here, like data-driven courage.
不过，我们的数据给了我一些勇气，比如数据驱动的勇气。
Like, Nick, you are in the same position that all of your participants are in over and over again.
就像尼克一样，你和所有参与者都处于同样的境地。
And it gave me courage to go where my wife was and to say, "Yeah, we can do this.
这给了我勇气去我妻子所在的地方并说：“是的，我们可以做到。
Honey, you and I can do this together." Now, Jen and I are in a position that's different from lots of other families.
亲爱的，你和我可以一起做这件事。”现在，珍和我的处境与许多其他家庭不同。
We have resources.
我们有资源。
She's a fabulous human being.
她是一个了不起的人。
We have a strong marriage.
我们有牢固的婚姻。
Raising a child with intellectual disability is challenging, but we could do this.
抚养一个智力障碍的孩子是一项挑战，但我们可以做到。
And my data really made me feel comfortable that it wouldn't just be good, it would be surprisingly good.
我的数据确实让我感到放心，它不仅会好，而且会好得令人惊讶。
About a year after that, Jen and I boarded a flight with our four other kids.
大约一年后，我和珍与其他四个孩子一起登上了航班。
We're like a traveling circus show on our way to China.
我们就像一场前往中国的巡回马戏表演。
Folks had not seen a family like ours to adopt Lindsay, who's two years old.
人们还没有见过像我们这样的家庭收养两岁的林赛。
She was abandoned in China by a woman who we will never meet, whose thoughts about how hard this might have been or how little support she had to raise a child like Lindsay, we don't know.
她在中国被一个我们永远不会见面的女人抛弃，我们不知道她对这可能有多困难以及她抚养像林赛这样的孩子所需的支持有多么少有什么想法。
Lindsay had beautiful brown eyes, relentless smile, despite a really, really hard start in life.
林赛有着美丽的棕色眼睛和无情的微笑，尽管生活的开始非常非常艰难。
And that was how that started.
事情就是这样开始的。
And she has been amazing.
她真是太棒了。
She has been flat out amazing.
她简直太棒了。
Not without difficulty.
并非没有困难。
Raising a child with an intellectual disability is really, really, really hard.
抚养一个智力障碍的孩子真的真的真的很难。
At the same time, she has been what every other family has said that raising a child with Down syndrome would be like a blessing to us in so many ways.
与此同时，正如其他家庭所说，抚养一个患有唐氏综合症的孩子在很多方面对我们来说都是一种祝福。
And to watch her go around the world, she gets frustrated and she's stubborn and she gets angry at people, but she also lives without the same kind of social anxiety that many of us has.
看着她环游世界，她感到沮丧、固执、对人生气，但她也没有像我们许多人那样有社交焦虑。
She has no filter on her hello.
她的打招呼没有任何过滤。
Taking her grocery shopping is super fun.
带她去杂货店买东西超级有趣。
Goes up and down the aisles.
在过道上走来走去。
She says hello to everybody.
她向大家打招呼。
Everybody.
大家。
And it's just like with my friend Tebo, who I flip the switch on his back, and he gives this big hello to me.
就像我的朋友特博一样，我打开他背上的开关，他向我打了个大大的招呼。
She flips the switch on so many people's backs.
她打开了很多人背后的开关。
Their faces light up when she says hello to them.
当她向他们打招呼时，他们的脸都亮了起来。
And she walks around the world this way, open, hello to everybody.
她就这样走遍世界，敞开心扉，向每个人问好。
It's amazing.
太棒了。
It's amazing.
太棒了。
And I think about how close we could've been, I could've been to saying, "I don't think I can do this," because we failed to appreciate just how well things would go when we reach out to love someone, bring them into our lives when we could.
我想我们本来可以有多亲密，我可以说，“我认为我做不到”，因为我们没有意识到，当我们伸出援手去爱一个人，尽可能地将他们带入我们的生活时，事情会进展得多么顺利。
And she's amazing.
她很棒。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What an incredible story.
多么令人难以置信的故事啊。
If you don't mind me asking, what is the relationship between your youngest daughter and the other children in your family?
如果您不介意我问一下，您的小女儿和您家里的其他孩子是什么关系？
Because you described a beautiful set-
因为你描述了一个美丽的场景-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of examples with people-
与人相处的例子-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
outside your family, and obviously-
在你的家庭之外，显然——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you and your wife have an incredible connection to her.
你和你的妻子与她有着不可思议的联系。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But what is her relationship to the other siblings?
但她和其他兄弟姐妹是什么关系呢？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
She is the magnet in the family.
她是家里的磁石。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
I mean, she's the baby.
我的意思是，她是孩子。
If you are in a family with a youngest sibling, you all glom around that youngest one.
如果你的家庭有一个最小的兄弟姐妹，那么你们都会围着那个最小的兄弟姐妹。
She is like that too for the siblings, too.
对于兄弟姐妹来说，她也是如此。
Now, it's also hard.
现在，也很难了。
They need some time alone.
他们需要一些独处的时间。
But when you come home and Lindsey is there, I get a, "Hi, Dad," that's of a volume that every dad should hear when they come home.
但当你回到家，林赛就在那里时，我会听到一句“嗨，爸爸”，这是每个爸爸回家时都应该听到的声音。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
It is wonderful.
太棒了。
The sisters and the brothers all get that, too.
兄弟姐妹们也都明白这一点。
It's great.
这很棒。
It's great.
这很棒。
She is very connected to everybody in a way that I think even the other siblings aren't, potentially.
她与每个人的联系都非常紧密，我认为即使是其他兄弟姐妹也可能没有。
They get older, they go their own ways, but everybody loves Lindsey.
他们变老了，各走各的路，但每个人都爱林赛。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is it the case that children with Down are given up for adoption more?
唐氏儿童被遗弃的情况是否更多？
I mean, you described what I assume is a somewhat unique situation in China.
我的意思是，你描述了我认为在中国有些独特的情况。
Somebody, you said, abandoned her.
你说有人抛弃了她。
She was given to an orphanage.
她被送到孤儿院。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know anything about this.
我对此一无所知。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
I actually had a colleague that studied GABA transmission in the brain, in Down, but I have zero-
事实上，我有一位同事在唐氏研究大脑中的 GABA 传输，但我的知识为零——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
minus infinity knowledge of this.
减去对此的无限知识。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes, you can adopt a child with Down syndrome today in the United States, and there's a waiting list for these kids in most places.
是的，您今天可以在美国收养患有唐氏综合症的孩子，并且在大多数地方都有这些孩子的等候名单。
The other thing that happens, though, is what could've happened to us at three months, and I think this is more common now as genetic testing allows you to tell whether your child has any number of different kind of genetic differences, the diversity on that dimension.
然而，发生的另一件事是我们三个月后可能发生的事情，我认为这种情况现在更常见，因为基因测试可以让你判断你的孩子是否有任何数量的不同类型的遗传差异，即该维度上的多样性。
And look, there's some conditions that are just very, very hard to manage or that aren't conducive to life.
瞧，有些条件非常非常难以管理，或者不利于生命。
Down syndrome is just not one of those.
唐氏综合症并不是其中之一。
But many families at that three-month period, because they're skeptical or pessimistic about how well they can handle this, they don't know the supports that are available.
但许多家庭在这三个月期间，因为对自己处理此事的能力持怀疑或悲观态度，所以不知道可以获得哪些支持。
They don't realize the strength that they have or the amount of love that they will feel for this child once it becomes yours.
他们没有意识到自己拥有的力量，也没有意识到一旦这个孩子成为你的孩子，他们会对这个孩子产生多少爱。
Hardships notwithstanding, it is harder, no doubt about it, will end those pregnancies when, like us, might have found it to be a massive blessing in their lives.
尽管困难重重，但毫无疑问，结束这些怀孕会更困难，因为像我们一样，她们可能会发现这对她们的生活来说是一个巨大的祝福。
I don't know what to tell people to do with that other than telling our own story.
除了讲述我们自己的故事之外，我不知道该告诉人们做什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
I think people have strength that they might not realize, and there are lots of very challenging conditions.
我认为人们有自己可能没有意识到的力量，并且有很多非常具有挑战性的条件。
Down syndrome is one that is not as challenging as you might imagine.
唐氏综合症并不像您想象的那么具有挑战性。
These kids are amazing.
这些孩子太棒了。
Amazing.
惊人的。
And our kids are our kids.
我们的孩子就是我们的孩子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Even across, as we were talking earlier, however kids have come into your life, once they're your kids...
即使是跨越，正如我们之前所说，无论孩子如何进入你的生活，一旦他们是你的孩子......
I mean, the fact that she has Down syndrome is something that is always kind of on our minds because it governs lots of things we do, but it also fades very quickly.
我的意思是，她患有唐氏综合症这一事实一直在我们的脑海中，因为它控制着我们所做的很多事情，但它也很快消失。
Lindsey's just Lindsey, right?
林赛只是林赛，对吧？
She's got her own personality.
她有自己的个性。
She does her own things.
她做她自己的事。
The intellectual disability becomes almost like a background thing.
智力障碍几乎变成了一个背景问题。
It is not what defines her.
这不是她的定义。
She loves playing with dolls and Disney characters.
她喜欢玩洋娃娃和迪士尼人物。
She loves listening to stories.
她喜欢听故事。
She loves reading books with you.
她喜欢和你一起读书。
She loves, loves, loves playing on the trampoline and playing in our outdoor kitchen.
她非常非常喜欢在蹦床上玩耍，在我们的户外厨房里玩耍。
She loves playing with the neighbor kids, Demi and Delilah.
她喜欢和邻居的孩子黛米和黛利拉一起玩耍。
They are her closest friends.
他们是她最亲密的朋友。
She loves all those things.
她喜欢所有这些东西。
She has a huge personality, and that's what defines her and our lives day to day, not the diagnosis.
她有巨大的个性，这就是定义她和我们日常生活的因素，而不是诊断结果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Well, I've only known you a short while, and I'm in no position to psychoanalyze you, but I have to assume that something very powerful about you, and I'm also assuming about your wife, Chen-
好吧，我认识你才不久，我没有资格对你进行心理分析，但我必须假设你身上有一些非常强大的东西，而且我也假设你的妻子陈——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that your very clear, complete lack of shame about the fact that she has Down has to be a positive force here in this.
你对她患有唐氏综合症的事实非常清楚、完全不感到羞耻，这在这方面一定是一种积极的力量。
I'm not trying to take anything away-
我并不是想夺走任何东西-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
from who Lindsey is-
Lindsey 是谁——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as an individual.
作为个人。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But, I don't know if I want to darken the conversation with a contrast story, but I will.
但是，我不知道我是否想用对比故事来加深对话，但我会的。
I won't reveal who this person is, but there's a very, very famous neuroscientist.
我不会透露这个人是谁，但有一位非常非常著名的神经科学家。
It was pretty well known that he had a son who had epileptic seizures.
众所周知，他有一个患有癫痫发作的儿子。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, what's the shame in that?
我的意思是，这有什么可耻的？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
But he was ashamed of his son.
但他却为自己的儿子感到羞耻。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He wouldn't bring him to events.
他不会带他参加活动。
He wouldn't bring him to things.
他不会带他去做事。
I'm actually aware of several high-level scientists, and I have to be careful because I don't want to paint a negative view of scientists.
我实际上认识几位高水平的科学家，我必须小心，因为我不想给科学家留下负面的印象。
I could tell you 1,000-
我可以告诉你 1,000-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
stories about wonderful scientists doing wonderful-
关于出色的科学家做出色的事情的故事——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
things for every bad story.
每个坏故事的东西。
But I remember hearing this and thinking, "This is crazy." Someone who worked in his lab said, "Yeah, he's got a Nobel Prize, but he's incredibly ashamed of his son." I thought, "That's nuts." I have a good friend, in the positive side, my good friend Eddie Chang, who's the chair of neurosurgery at UCSF, and he works on epilepsy.
但我记得听到这个并想：“这太疯狂了。”在他的实验室工作的一个人说：“是的，他获得了诺贝尔奖，但他对他的儿子感到非常羞耻。”我想：“这太疯狂了。”我有一个好朋友，从积极的角度来看，我的好朋友艾迪·张（Eddie Chang）是加州大学旧金山分校神经外科的主任，他从事癫痫研究。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you can treat various forms-
而且你可以治疗各种形式——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of epilepsy.
癫痫症。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This wasn't intractable-
这并不棘手——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
epilepsy.
癫痫。
So I think when parents have a shame about-
所以我认为当父母感到羞耻时——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a child's, what do you call it, condition-
一个孩子的，你怎么称呼它，条件-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that has to impact the way that the child moves-
这必须影响孩子移动的方式——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the world.
在世界上。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think it's really awesome- That there is like zero minus infinity shame detected.
我认为这真的很棒——检测到了零减无穷的羞耻感。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Just have a-
只要有一个-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I hear only glowing things and pride.
我只听到发光的东西和骄傲。
And, I also don't detect any hints of like, "We're doing this really hard thing, and therefore we're amazing." But like you said, "She's just our daughter."
而且，我也没有发现任何类似的暗示，“我们正在做这件非常困难的事情，因此我们很棒。”但就像你说的，“她只是我们的女儿。”
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"And we have this relationship.
“我们有这种关系。
We're her parents, she's our daughter, and we're just living life."
我们是她的父母，她是我们的女儿，我们只是过着生活。”
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which I think is awesome.
我认为这很棒。
I think it's a real testament to who you are, and I think it's a real...
我认为这是对你是谁的真正证明，我认为这是真正的......
And your wife and Lindsay, and I think it's a testament to what's possible when we get out of what do people think.
还有你的妻子和林赛，我认为这证明了当我们摆脱人们的想法时，一切皆有可能。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It just seems like every, all goodness just emerges from it.
似乎所有的美好都从中涌现出来。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Now to be clear, it's been a struggle for me, too.
现在要明确的是，这对我来说也是一场斗争。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
I don't want to certainly-
我不想当然-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
...
...
paint myself as not having concerns about this or being worried what people-
把自己描绘成不担心这个或担心人们-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Her safety
她的安全
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
...
...
will think about us.
会想到我们。
Or even our other kids-
甚至我们其他的孩子——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
...
...
when they're going through difficult stretches in their lives.
当他们经历人生中的困难时期时。
They're not doing the kinds of things that maybe I did, right?
他们没有做我可能做过的事情，对吗？
I have to make myself okay with that and come to accept that, and when I do that...
我必须让自己接受这一点并接受这一点，当我这样做时......
So, I have another son who we just love dearly, who college just wasn't for him.
所以，我还有另一个儿子，我们深爱着他，但他不适合上大学。
I'm a third-generation PhD.
我是第三代博士。
One on my mom's side, and my dad is a PhD as well, and college is just the route, right?
我妈妈那边有一个，我爸爸也是博士，上大学只是一条路，对吧？
I've been in academic life for my whole...
我一生都在学术生活中...
College was just the route, but it just wasn't for him.
大学只是一条路，但它不适合他。
And he just wasn't engaging with it.
而他只是没有参与其中。
And I kept, and I'm saying this with some shame myself right now, that we kind of kept him in this path thinking this is the right way to go, and it would've been clearer outside that this isn't what he wants to be doing.
我一直在说，我自己现在带着一些羞愧地说，我们让他走这条路，认为这是正确的道路，而且外面会更清楚，这不是他想做的事。
He finally came to us very clearly and said that, "You know, Dad, this is just not what I want to keep doing." And when we finally let go of that and just let him do what he wanted to do, which is now he's in a trade school, I've never seen him happier.
他最终非常清楚地对我们说：“你知道，爸爸，这不是我想继续做的事情。”当我们最终放手让他做他想做的事时，现在他在一所贸易学校，我从未见过他如此高兴。
We're just so proud of him.
我们为他感到骄傲。
Now, like Gustavo, who I met on the train yesterday morning taking this culinary class, he's so proud of what he's doing.
现在，就像我昨天早上在火车上遇到的古斯塔沃（Gustavo）一样，他对自己所做的事情感到非常自豪。
Just made me feel so good about him and also about my son, to let go of those things and just to love him for who he is.
让我对他和我的儿子感觉很好，让我放下这些事情，只爱他本来的样子。
Every parent struggles with that.
每个父母都为此苦苦挣扎。
Every parent struggles with loving their kids for who they are, and that takes some practice, too, and also some deliberate, careful thought and attention.
每个父母都在努力爱自己的孩子，这也需要一些练习，也需要一些深思熟虑、仔细的思考和关注。
Um, and it's worth challenging yourself to do, because, of course, it makes the world of difference for them, and we all struggle to do that somewhat.
嗯，这值得挑战自己去做，因为，当然，这会让他们的世界变得不同，而我们都在某种程度上努力做到这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
With Lindsay, she's a ray of sunshine.
和林赛在一起，她就是一缕阳光。
We refer to her sometimes as a unicorn because there aren't too many out there.
我们有时称她为独角兽，因为那里的独角兽并不多。
And we learned a little while ago, I don't know how true this is, I don't know who comes up with these things, but it turns out a collection of unicorns, do you know what it is ostensibly called?
不久前我们了解到，我不知道这有多真实，我不知道谁想出了这些东西，但结果是独角兽的集合，你知道它表面上叫什么吗？
A blessing.
一个祝福。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Really.
真的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's awesome.
太棒了。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Who'd have guessed?
谁能想到呢？
Look, I'm not...
你看，我不是...
I don't, I...
我不，我...
Yeah.
是的。
I won't put that to some sort of factual test.
我不会对此进行某种事实测试。
That is what they're apparently called is a blessing, and that certainly has been what she's been for us.
这显然就是他们所谓的祝福，这当然也是她为我们带来的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A lot of lessons in there and a lot of things for people to think about in terms of who they are and how they relate to people.
那里有很多教训，也有很多事情可以让人们思考自己是谁以及如何与人相处。
If you don't mind, I just would like to peel back another layer-
如果你不介意的话，我只是想再剥一层——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
on relationships with, I'll use the example of children, but it could be with other family member where that person is not typical of the-
关于与人的关系，我会用孩子的例子，但也可能是与其他家庭成员的关系，而这个人不是典型的-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
average population.
平均人口。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you describe Lindsay in this beautiful way.
你用这种美丽的方式描述了林赛。
I almost feel like she's a bit in the room, right?
我几乎感觉她有点在房间里，对吧？
You know, the way you describe her.
你知道，你描述她的方式。
And I think when I'm out and about, and I see a parent or parents with a kid who has an, I don't know what the diagnoses are, right?
我想当我出去走动时，我看到一位或多位父母带着孩子，我不知道诊断是什么，对吗？
How could I?
我怎么能呢？
An intellectual or some sort of atypical behavior.
智力或某种非典型行为。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The way you describe her is very delightful.
你描述她的方式非常令人愉快。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sometimes, the behavior of children with these challenges are disruptive.
有时，面临这些挑战的儿童的行为具有破坏性。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's hard to not feel the shame of the parent.
很难不感受到父母的羞耻。
Like, if a kid's being really loud or throwing a tantrum, and this isn't a small child, for instance, or saying things that clearly don't make sense, and I don't expect you to be the ambassador for all these people.
例如，如果一个孩子非常大声或发脾气，而这不是一个小孩子，或者说一些明显没有意义的话，我不希望你成为所有这些人的大使。
I think we as sentient, well-meaning people around, we don't quite know how to react to that.
我认为我们作为周围有感情、善意的人，我们不太知道如何对此做出反应。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you want to say, "Gosh, I'm so sorry?" No, of course not.
你想说“天哪，我很抱歉？”不，当然不是。
That's their life.
这就是他们的生活。
Who are you-
你是谁-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you also don't want to perhaps ignore them, but you also don't want people to feel like you're calling attention to them.
你也不想忽视他们，但你也不希望人们觉得你在引起他们的注意。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you have any ideas or suggestions?
您有什么想法或建议吗？
It must be an odd experience to move through life that way, um, and I'm so glad they don't isolate their kid.
以这种方式度过一生一定是一种奇怪的经历，嗯，我很高兴他们没有孤立他们的孩子。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I think we've all been in this circumstance.
但我想我们都曾经历过这种情况。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we don't quite know how to react.
我们不太知道如何反应。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So, I think a good analog to this is with stuttering, and I think we all know how to deal with stuttering.
所以，我认为口吃是一个很好的类比，我想我们都知道如何处理口吃。
Somebody who has a stutter is you wait patiently.
口吃的人是你耐心等待。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
And you don't call attention to it.
而且你没有引起人们的注意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
You just wait patiently for them to express what they want to express, and then you carry on, right?
你就耐心地等他们表达出来，然后你就继续吧？
And maybe sometime if you get to know somebody, you can ask more specifically about, "How would you like me to help in this particular case?
也许有时候，如果你认识某人，你可以更具体地询问：“在这种特殊情况下，你希望我如何提供帮助？
Is there anything I can do to be of assistance?
有什么我可以帮忙的吗？
How would you like me to respond?" We can ask people that directly, right?
你希望我如何回应？”我们可以直接问别人，对吗？
Um, and often somebody, a caretaker, will be able to tell you that.
嗯，通常有人，一个看守人，能够告诉你这一点。
But patience is, I think, the way to deal with it, just to wait until whatever they're trying to do becomes clear.
但我认为，耐心是解决问题的方法，只是等待，直到他们想要做的事情变得清楚为止。
And I think we can all do that with stuttering.
我认为我们都可以通过口吃来做到这一点。
I think that's kind of understood, and maybe that's the way I would think about it.
我想这是可以理解的，也许这就是我思考的方式。
But yes, some differences are harder than others, for sure.
但确实，有些差异确实比其他差异更困难。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Having grown up in a town, Palo Alto, where there are many, many professors and high-achieving parents, and I could list off a dozen or more examples of where the kids either didn't follow the traditional track.
我在帕洛阿尔托的一个小镇长大，那里有很多很多的教授和有成就的父母，我可以列出十几个或更多的例子来说明孩子们没有遵循传统的轨道。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You could say, oh, they didn't follow the traditional track, but they became like a Pulitzer winning writer-
你可以说，哦，他们没有走传统的轨道，但他们变得像普利策获奖作家一样——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or something like that.
或类似的东西。
I'm not talking about that.
我不是在谈论这个。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
I think it's so cool, by the way, that your son is in trade school.
顺便说一句，我觉得你儿子在贸易学校上学真是太酷了。
I have friends from all walks of life, and fulfillment is-
我有来自各行各业的朋友，而满足感就是——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I've never seen our son happier.
我从未见过我们的儿子如此快乐。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
And it's wonderful.
这太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We're two academics.
我们是两个学者。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My dad's an academic, and I can say that, I actually think I would've been happy doing any number of things.
我父亲是一名学者，我可以说，我实际上认为我会很高兴做很多事情。
At one point, I wanted to join the fire service.
有一次，我想加入消防队。
My dad every once in a while, sorry dad, he'll say like- ...
我爸爸每隔一段时间，对不起爸爸，他会说——......
"Oh, I don't think that would've been fulfilling." I think it would be awesome.
“哦，我认为这不会令人满意。”我认为那会很棒。
Like, work out.
比如，锻炼身体。
The dog.
狗。
I love serving others.
我喜欢为别人服务。
Get out and do things, and I'm friends with the local fire department when they come through.
出去做点事，当当地消防部门过来时我就是他们的朋友。
Like I certainly don't know what it is to do that profession-
就像我当然不知道从事这个职业是什么一样-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but I think fulfillment can be found in a number of ways.
但我认为可以通过多种方式找到满足感。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
For sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For sure.
当然。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Fulfillment's about engagement, right?
成就感在于参与，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And people like firefighters.
人们喜欢消防员。
Being a cop is a little tricky because some people like you-
成为一名警察有点棘手，因为有些人喜欢你-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
For sure
当然
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and some people hate you, and the job is much more-
有些人讨厌你，而这份工作远不止——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
For sure
当然
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
from moment to moment is a lot less predictable.
每时每刻都难以预测。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
For sure.
当然。
I think one thing that we can do, and I haven't always been great at this in my family.
我认为我们可以做一件事，但我在家里并不总是擅长于此。
I told you, it took me a while with my son to encourage him more down that path, and I am just now realizing that's what I need to be doing, is I think kids often will feel like they are not following the right path and won't feel good about the path they're going down, and that's where parents can really be helpful.
我告诉过你，我花了一段时间和我的儿子一起鼓励他更多地走这条路，我现在才意识到这就是我需要做的，我认为孩子们常常会觉得他们没有走正确的道路，并且对他们正在走的路感觉不好，而这就是父母真正可以提供帮助的地方。
We have right outside my office window is the University of Chicago Laboratory School, which is a very elite private high school, and it goes all the way through down to preschool as well.
我办公室窗外就是芝加哥大学实验学校，这是一所非常精英的私立高中，也一直延伸到学前班。
And the kids come out of there with a very clear expectation about what the right path is for them, and a lot of kids struggle with that.
孩子们从那里出来时，对什么是适合他们的正确道路有着非常明确的期望，但很多孩子都为此苦苦挣扎。
I just had a faculty member in my office yesterday before I left to get on a flight with you describing how their children are struggling, I think, with expectations for what they ought to be doing that just don't fit with who they are.
昨天，在我离开和你一起上飞机之前，我的办公室里刚刚有一位教职员工描述了他们的孩子是如何挣扎的，我想，他们对他们应该做的事情的期望与他们的身份不符。
And I think that's where parents can be really helpful for their kids, is loving them for who they are and helping them find what's going to make them the happiest and making sure the kids know that any path is okay.
我认为这就是父母真正可以为孩子提供帮助的地方，就是爱他们本来的样子，帮助他们找到让他们最快乐的事情，并确保孩子们知道任何道路都是可以的。
You want to be a carpenter, great.
你想成为一名木匠，太好了。
That job won't be AI'd at least, right?
那份工作至少不会是人工智能的，对吧？
Or you want to get a PhD, fabulous.
或者你想获得博士学位，太棒了。
Whatever field, go for it, right?
不管什么领域，都去努力吧？
Trying to encourage kids with their passions and encouraging them to feel like it's okay.
尝试用孩子们的热情来鼓励他们，并鼓励他们感觉一切都好。
That's important.
这很重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You have another side of you that most people aren't aware of-
你还有大多数人不知道的另一面——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that we somehow landed on-
我们以某种方式降落在-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes, we did
是的，我们做到了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
walking in here somewhat randomly, which is-
有点随机地走进这里，那就是——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you enjoy as much time as possible in the out of doors.
您可以尽可能多地享受户外活动。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're a hunter and a fisherman-
你是一个猎人和一个渔夫-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
I am, yes
我是，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
an outdoorsman.
一个户外活动家。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you wanted to be Grizzly Adams.
所以你想成为灰熊亚当斯。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
When I was a kid.
当我还是个孩子的时候。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But in some sense, you play him from time to time.
但从某种意义上说，你时不时地扮演他。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Sort of.
有点像。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But not out on your own.
但不是自己一个人出去。
So you-
所以你-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and your sons and daughters-
还有你的儿子和女儿——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
go get out into the wilderness.
到旷野去吧。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I grew up in rural Iowa, out in the country.
我在爱荷华州的乡村长大。
My dad and I went hunting and fishing all the time when I was a kid.
当我还是个孩子的时候，我和爸爸一直去打猎和钓鱼。
I was four years old the first time I went deer hunting with my dad, and I loved that time.
我四岁时第一次和爸爸一起去猎鹿，我很喜欢那次。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Four?
四个？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Four, yeah.
四个，是的。
I walked along, because we would-
我一路走着，因为我们会——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Shorter than the rifle.
比步枪短。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
No, I remember years where the snow would feel like it was up to my hips hunting deer in Iowa in early December.
不，我记得十二月初在爱荷华州猎鹿时，雪已经漫过我的臀部了。
And I wouldn't carry a gun until I was 12, or a bow.
我直到 12 岁才带枪，也不带弓。
I started bow hunting when I was 12.
我12岁时就开始弓箭狩猎。
But before then, you would push the deer.
但在那之前，你要推鹿。
You'd walk through the woods with other guys, with my dad, or with the friends that we'd have.
你会和其他人、和我爸爸、或者和我们的朋友一起穿过树林。
It was a real community of people.
这是一个真正的人们社区。
The social connection there was great.
那里的社会联系非常好。
We used to go hunting with a guy when I was a kid, Lane McDowell, who was friends with my dad.
当我还是个孩子的时候，我们经常和一个叫莱恩·麦克道尔的人一起去打猎，他是我父亲的朋友。
He was a football player for the University of Iowa, and he played for the Detroit Lions.
他是爱荷华大学的橄榄球运动员，并为底特律雄狮队效力。
He was this big monster of a man.
他是个大怪物。
Fabulous guy.
很棒的家伙。
And his son, Thad, who would go, who is also my same age.
他的儿子泰德也会去，他也和我同龄。
We played football together, against each other in high school.
我们在高中时一起踢足球，互相对抗。
But yeah, I grew up doing that.
但是，是的，我就是这样长大的。
And then, as I've gotten older, I've stayed connected to the outdoors.
然后，随着年龄的增长，我一直与户外活动保持联系。
I love being in the woods.
我喜欢呆在树林里。
I love doing conservation kind of work.
我喜欢做保护工作。
There's kind of an element of caring for other people that also extends to caring for the woodlands that are out there.
关心他人的元素也延伸到了关心外面的林地。
I do a lot of invasive species removal.
我做了很多入侵物种的清除工作。
We have enrolled 40 acres in the conservation reserve program, planted 9,000 trees on it, and I see a lot of opportunities to connect with people in places that other people wouldn't.
我们已经在保护区计划中登记了 40 英亩土地，在上面种植了 9,000 棵树，我看到了很多与其他人无法接触的地方的人们建立联系的机会。
I see the outdoors, hunting and fishing.
我看到户外、狩猎和钓鱼。
You almost never do that truly alone.
你几乎永远不会真正独自做到这一点。
Right?
正确的？
I always have somebody with me when I'm fishing.
我钓鱼时总是有人陪着我。
I always go out with the kids when I'm turkey hunting or hunting deers, and it's that social element that is really so important.
当我狩猎火鸡或狩猎鹿时，我总是和孩子们一起出去，这种社交元素真的非常重要。
And there was an element of this that just felt like it came right out of my research that happened last fall in Oregon.
其中有一个元素感觉像是来自我去年秋天在俄勒冈州进行的研究。
My oldest son, Ben, is a third-year PhD student at Oregon State, pursuing a PhD there.
我的大儿子本是俄勒冈州立大学三年级博士生，正在那里攻读博士学位。
And bless his heart, last spring, he asked his dad to do the thing that made me just the happiest he could have done.
祝福他的心，去年春天，他要求他的父亲做一件他能做的最让我高兴的事情。
He said, "Dad, would you like to come out here and go elk hunting with me?" I grew up in rural Iowa.
他说：“爸爸，你愿意出来和我一起去猎麋鹿吗？”我在爱荷华州农村长大。
The idea we'd be out in the mountains actually doing this just never was something that occurred to me that we could do, but he asked if we could do it, and I was so excited.
我们在山上实际做这件事的想法从来都不是我能做到的，但他问我们是否可以做到，我很兴奋。
We would get a week together out in the remote wilderness of Oregon, just the two of us, sitting around trees, looking for elk.
我们会在俄勒冈州偏远的荒野里待上一周，只有我们两个人，坐在树旁寻找麋鹿。
It doesn't matter if you get one or not, whatever.
不管你得到与否，都没关系。
That's not what it's about.
事情不是这样的。
It's about being out there and seeing what you see and being together, and it was going to be fabulous.
这是关于走出去，看到你所看到的，并在一起，这将是美妙的。
And I was so excited.
我很兴奋。
So last fall, this was October, November, can't quite remember the exact date, went into northeast Oregon, and we went out in the woods.
所以去年秋天，这是十月，十一月，不太记得确切的日期，进入俄勒冈州东北部，我们去了树林里。
We're miles away from the nearest road.
我们距离最近的道路有几英里远。
We hike in.
我们徒步进去。
It's really hard.
真的很难。
It's cold.
是冷的。
There's snow on the ground.
地上有雪。
We're not really prepared for this.
我们还没有真正做好准备。
First time we've ever done this.
我们第一次这样做。
We don't have any chairs with us or anything.
我们没有任何椅子或任何东西。
We got backpacking tents, freezing our butts off.
我们搭了背包帐篷，冻得屁股都凉了。
And the first day, we go out to scout.
第一天，我们出去侦察。
We don't know what we're doing here at all.
我们根本不知道自己在这里做什么。
We're just going to see, I don't know, where are the elk?
我们只是想看看，我不知道，麋鹿在哪里？
How do we do this?
我们该怎么做？
We go down into this valley, and we're not there for more than 20 minutes maybe, when our time alone suddenly becomes a little more social than it would've been otherwise.
我们走进这个山谷，可能待的时间不会超过 20 分钟，这时我们独处的时间突然变得比其他时候更具社交性。
We look behind us, three quarters of a mile up the valley, we got this group of guys coming in camo down the way.
我们向身后望去，在山谷上方四分之三英里处，我们看到这群穿着迷彩服的人正沿着这条路过来。
And my son, Ben, was a little nervous about this, right?
我的儿子本对此有点紧张，对吧？
A little anxiety about reaching out and connecting with other people, right?
对于与他人接触和联系有点焦虑，对吗？
A little like you'd have somebody sits down next to you on a train, "Well, maybe I'll just keep to myself," or on a plane, "Just keep to myself." Here we're out in the wilderness, and we got this group of hunters.
有点像在火车上有人坐在你旁边，“好吧，也许我会独处”，或者在飞机上“独处”。我们在荒野里，遇到了这群猎人。
It's like a gang of men coming down the valley towards us, all in camo.
就像一群穿着迷彩服的人从山谷向我们走来。
And so Ben's, "Let's move on, Dad.
于是本说：“我们继续前进吧，爸爸。
Let's get going." And I said, "No, let's stay and talk with these guys." And And wait, they come down, and we start talking.
我们走吧。”我说：“不，我们留下来和这些人谈谈吧。”等等，他们下来了，我们开始说话。
It turns out these guys have been hunting in this valley, in this area for years, for decades.
事实证明，这些家伙已经在这个山谷、这个地区狩猎了很多年、几十年了。
The older guy, Dennis, had been going with another older guy.
年长的丹尼斯一直在和另一个年长的人一起去。
I think they'd gotten connected through their church.
我认为他们是通过教堂建立联系的。
The other older guy had passed away recently.
另一位老人最近去世了。
But now they have another guy, Corey, who'd gotten connected to them, and the kids are all with them, Eric, and I think there were five at the time.
但现在他们有了另一个人，科里，他和他们有联系，孩子们都和他们在一起，埃里克，我想当时有五个。
And we just started talking, and then they start telling us how to do this, and where we could go, and how we could coordinate with each other to make sure we both had the best time that we could.
我们刚刚开始交谈，然后他们开始告诉我们如何做到这一点，我们可以去哪里，以及我们如何相互协调以确保我们都度过了最好的时光。
And they told us, "Well, there's a blind up here where you could hunt, and you could go down there and hunt in this other spot." And we just started working together, and they were delightful.
他们告诉我们，“好吧，这里有一个百叶窗，你可以在那里打猎，你可以到那里去另一个地方打猎。”我们刚刚开始合作，他们很愉快。
Just like it is when you reach out to connect with other people.
就像您伸出手与其他人联系一样。
They reach back to you.
他们会联系你。
They invited us to their tent for dinner.
他们邀请我们去他们的帐篷吃晚饭。
I'll just never forget, they got this huge, this amazing wall tent.
我永远不会忘记，他们有这么大、这么神奇的壁式帐篷。
They've got a camp stove.
他们有一个露营炉。
They've got a spring where they get fresh water.
他们有一个泉水，可以从那里获取淡水。
They got a bathroom where they are.
他们所在的地方有一间浴室。
We walk into their tent.
我们走进他们的帐篷。
It's heated.
天气很热。
We're freezing our tuchus off in the snow.
我们的图楚斯被冻在雪里了。
We walk into their tent, the first thing they say to us, "Would you like red or white?" They got wine in their cabin miles from it.
我们走进他们的帐篷，他们对我们说的第一句话是：“你想要红色还是白色？”他们在距离它几英里的小屋里买了酒。
These guys were fabulous.
这些家伙太棒了。
And it turned an event that was great for Ben and I into an even better event because we connected with these men who now, just yesterday, Corey sent me a text message saying, "It's time to apply for your elk tags.
这把对本和我来说很棒的活动变成了更好的活动，因为我们与这些人取得了联系，就在昨天，科里给我发了一条短信，说：“是时候申请麋鹿标签了。
This is when we're going to go and this is when we're going to come out, in case you want to do this with us again." And in fact, Corey got an elk the first day.
这是我们要走的时候，也是我们要出来的时候，以防你想再次和我们一起这样做。”事实上，科里第一天就得到了一只麋鹿。
He filled his bull tag.
他填满了他的公牛标签。
And we were coming back from hunting, Ben and I had seen one, but weren't able to get a shot at it.
我们打猎回来时，本和我看到了一个，但没能拍到它。
It was still amazing to see one.
看到一个还是很令人惊奇。
And we're walking back, and the young kids, Eric, is leading this group.
我们往回走，小孩子们，埃里克，正在带领这群人。
He says, "Get on down there and show Corey how to bone out that elk." I've boned out many, many deer, so it's the only red meat we eat are the venison that I get.
他说：“到那里去，教科里如何把那头麋鹿的骨头弄出来。”我已经剔除了很多很多鹿的骨头，所以我们吃的唯一红肉就是我得到的鹿肉。
And, so I know how to butcher these animals and prepare them to eat.
而且，所以我知道如何屠宰这些动物并准备它们食用。
And they had just been hauling out these big quarters of animals, like 100-pound ribcage.
他们刚刚拖出这些大块的动物，比如 100 磅重的胸腔。
There's a lot of bones that you don't need to be hauling out.
有很多骨头你不需要拔出来。
So I got to go down and help Corey and show him how to bone out the backstrap and the loins and all the meat that you actually eat, and leave the bones that are there for the cougars and stuff to get later.
所以我必须下去帮助科里，向他展示如何剔除背带、腰部和所有你实际吃的肉，然后把骨头留下来供美洲狮和其他东西稍后取用。
And it was fabulous.
这真是太棒了。
And the courage that I had to talk with them, to connect with them out there, again, I felt just came straight from my research.
我再次感受到，我必须与他们交谈、与他们建立联系的勇气直接来自我的研究。
That how easy it is to underestimate how positively other people will respond when you reach out to them.
当你向别人伸出援手时，你很容易低估他们的积极反应。
And here it would've been easy for us to be competitive or avoid this, and it was such a blessing to have connected with them.
在这里，我们很容易竞争或避免这种情况，与他们建立联系真是一件幸事。
And we've stayed connected with them since, and I hope we see them again in the fall out there in the woods.
从那以后我们就一直和他们保持着联系，我希望我们能在秋天的树林里再次见到他们。
It would be fabulous.
那将是美妙的。
Wonderful men.
很棒的男人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's awesome.
太棒了。
And thanks for putting in a strong, clear, ethical picture of hunters.
感谢您为猎人提供了一幅清晰、有力、合乎道德的图片。
I think a lot of people have a picture of hunters that is very different than what you just described.
我想很多人对猎人的印象与你刚才描述的非常不同。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My friend Cam Hanes is serious about preserving wildlands-
我的朋友卡姆·哈内斯（Cam Hanes）非常重视保护荒地——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and he's a very, very serious bow hunter.
他是一个非常非常认真的弓箭猎人。
And I mean, there are really shining examples.
我的意思是，确实有一些光辉的例子。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
There are.
有。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There are bad apples out there, too.
那里也有坏苹果。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
There are.
有。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I think people often have a certain stereotype of hunters.
但我认为人们常常对猎人有一定的刻板印象。
And yet most of those people also buy store-bought meat from factory farms.
然而，这些人中的大多数人也从工厂化农场购买商店购买的肉类。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so, not to guilt anybody, but there's a lot more to explore there.
所以，不要让任何人感到内疚，但还有很多东西需要探索。
So I appreciate not just the description of the beautiful social interaction and what grew from it, but also the context.
因此，我不仅欣赏对美好社交互动及其产生的描述，还欣赏其背景。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
There's a level of caring.
有一定程度的关怀。
I care about the woodlands, and I try to protect it as best I can.
我关心林地，并尽力保护它。
In terms of the deer are kind of a threat.
对鹿而言是一种威胁。
A lot of ecological damage that they cause in the woodlands in the Midwest because there are just a lot of them.
它们对中西部的林地造成了很多生态破坏，因为它们的数量太多了。
And so harvesting responsibly and respectfully.
因此，我们要负责任地、尊重地收获。
I only hunt with a crossbow now, for instance, because I can be much more accurate with it.
例如，我现在只用十字弓打猎，因为我用它可以更准确。
And so I can take an animal ethically and humanely and quickly, and that's why I do that.
这样我就可以道德地、人道地、快速地对待动物，这就是我这样做的原因。
And so most of the hunters that I've ever met are that way.
所以我见过的大多数猎人都是这样的。
They care about being outdoors.
他们关心户外活动。
They like being with each other.
他们喜欢和彼此在一起。
Getting an animal is part of it, but is not the main thing.
获得动物是其中的一部分，但不是主要的事情。
And, yeah, folks who don't hunt, I think, don't appreciate that care that people have, outdoorsmen have for the outdoors.
是的，我认为那些不打猎的人不会欣赏人们对户外活动的关心。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What a great lesson for your son.
这对你儿子来说真是一个很好的教训。
He's lucky to have you as a dad.
他很幸运有你这个爸爸。
I can say that-
我可以这么说——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
It was a wonderful week
这是美好的一周
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's awesome.
太棒了。
I was reflecting on a couple things which leads me to probably what is the final question in a minute or two.
我正在思考一些事情，这使我在一两分钟内可能会想到最后一个问题是什么。
But I was just sort of chuckling inside at one moment because, so you're describing that.
但我当时只是在心里咯咯地笑，因为，所以你正在描述这一点。
I'm thinking, okay, so my dad was a theoretical physicist.
我在想，好吧，所以我父亲是一位理论物理学家。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So bringing me to work was a little different.
所以带我去工作有点不同。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, we did a great many things together.
我的意思是，我们一起做了很多事情。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But he realized, and he's quite smart, and he realized that showing me a bunch of equations on a whiteboard wasn't going to cut it.
但他意识到，他很聪明，他意识到向我展示白板上的一堆方程式并不能解决问题。
So I'll never forget, he started off as an experimentalist.
所以我永远不会忘记，他一开始是一名实验学家。
And so my first go to work with Dad day was he took me into the lab, and they had all these fruit out.
所以我第一次和爸爸一起上班的那天，他带我去了实验室，他们把所有这些水果都拿出来了。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And a big tank of liquid nitrogen.
还有一个大罐液氮。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we spent the day dipping bananas-
我们花了一天时间浸香蕉-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Oh my goodness
天哪
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
into liquid nitrogen, smashing them on walls-
进入液氮，将它们砸在墙上——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Oh my goodness
天哪
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which, for a six-year-old kid was like pure delight.
对于一个六岁的孩子来说，这简直就是一种快乐。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Oh, that's the most awesome thing.
哦，这是最棒的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I went back to school telling all my friends-
我回到学校告诉我所有的朋友——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that I could shatter bananas and all this stuff.
我可以打碎香蕉和所有这些东西。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So wasn't quite what you described, but I have fishermen on my mom's side and-
所以并不完全是你所描述的那样，但我妈妈那边有渔民，而且——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
my girlfriend's family.
我女朋友的家人。
She's got a long line of hunters and farmers.
她有一长串的猎人和农民。
So I think they're going to put me to the test soon, but-
所以我想他们很快就会对我进行考验，但是-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Well, here's to parents doing great things with their kids
嗯，谨以此祝愿父母与孩子一起做伟大的事情
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
well, and that's the question I was going to ask.
好吧，这就是我要问的问题。
In fact, to do the opposite of trivialize older generations teaching younger generations about what proper social interactions are.
事实上，与贬低老一辈人相反，教导年轻一代什么是正确的社交互动。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The other thing I was thinking during your story is that this is how social dynamics and learning occurs in our species.
在你的故事中我想到的另一件事是，这就是我们物种的社会动态和学习的发生方式。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like if that series that was on Netflix, the "Chimp Empire" series.
就像 Netflix 上的《黑猩猩帝国》系列一样。
Did you watch it?
你看了吗？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Oh, I have not seen that, no.
哦，我没见过，没有。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, wow.
哦，哇。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fascinating because it's all about social dynamics in chimps.
很有趣，因为这全都与黑猩猩的社会动态有关。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Okay.
好的。
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Everything from covert gaze, and they're brutal to each other.
一切都来自秘密的凝视，而且他们对彼此都很残酷。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes, they are.
是的，他们是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They ostracize.
他们排斥。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's very intense.
非常激烈。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Rip each other's arms off almost.
几乎把彼此的手臂都扯断了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there's also a lot of beauty, but it's not just a bunch of happy chimps.
这里也有很多美丽的事物，但不仅仅是一群快乐的黑猩猩。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's intense.
很激烈。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Warring between-
之间的交战——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
troops and so forth.
部队等。
But it makes you think about our species.
但这会让你思考我们的物种。
And I'm raising a puppy right now, and I was telling my girlfriend because she's not raised a puppy before.
我现在正在养一只小狗，我告诉我的女朋友，因为她以前没有养过小狗。
She's better at it than I am already, of course.
当然，她已经比我更擅长了。
And I explained to her, I said, "The fastest way to train Strummer, our little bulldog mastiff, would be to get an older dog.
我向她解释说，“训练我们的小斗牛犬獒犬斯特鲁默的最快方法就是养一只老狗。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because here we are, teaching it these human cues and trying to...
因为我们在这里，教它这些人类暗示并试图......
But we really need to get into the mindset of a dog, and only a dog can really do that.
但我们确实需要进入狗的思维模式，而只有狗才能真正做到这一点。
They're so nose-led.
他们太被鼻子引导了。
They're great at sensing, literally, the autonomic tone of people around them.
从字面上看，他们非常擅长感知周围人的自主语气。
They're sensitive to space.
他们对空间很敏感。
Here we are saying, "Sit and stay," and do it like-
在这里，我们说，“坐下来，留下来”，然后这样做——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They hear it, but like-
他们听到了，但是喜欢——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
we're bringing them...
我们要带他们...
It'll be like us trying to learn how to use our noses to navigate.
这就像我们试图学习如何用鼻子导航一样。
So it is a fact that within every species, the older members of that species teach the younger members of that species how to socialize.
因此，事实上，在每个物种中，该物种的年长成员都会教导该物种的年轻成员如何社交。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I could rattle off lots of examples from my own life, but I won't, where I observed-
我可以列举很多我自己生活中的例子，但我不会，我观察到——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
my mom and dad doing certain things in certain situations.
我的妈妈和爸爸在某些情况下做某些事情。
And so, while on the one hand, until now, I feel like we've been talking to the young listeners and stuff.
因此，一方面，到目前为止，我觉得我们一直在与年轻的听众交谈。
The parents of kids or the to-be parents of kids or the siblings or the older, or people who don't even have kids, modeling really good-
孩子的父母或孩子的准父母或兄弟姐妹或年长的人，或什至没有孩子的人，模特真的很好-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
social interactions, I firmly believe, based on everything we've talked about today, that is every bit as critical as the person getting out there and pushing themselves past their anxiety to do the right things.
我坚信，根据我们今天所讨论的一切，社交互动与人们走出去并克服焦虑去做正确的事情一样重要。
We need to model better everyday social interactions.
我们需要建立更好的日常社交互动模型。
And so it's clear you did that in this example and in other examples.
很明显，您在本示例和其他示例中都做到了这一点。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So any ideas off the top of your head as to the, let's just call it the 40-and-up crowd.
因此，如果您有任何关于 40 岁及以上人群的想法，我们就将其称为 40 岁及以上人群。
It's kind of-
这有点-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
on us to model really good social-
让我们成为真正良好的社会榜样——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
interactions, because that's how, just like Strummer would learn better from a dog, learning from the internet is great, but a lot of kids don't have.
互动，因为这就是如何，就像斯特鲁默从狗那里学习得更好一样，从互联网上学习很棒，但很多孩子都没有。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe they have a single parent or they're-
也许他们有单亲父母或者他们-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
away from their parents or-
远离父母或——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the ship passed, or maybe-
船过去了，或者也许——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
maybe mom or dad was kind of a nasty person, unhappy person.
也许妈妈或爸爸是个令人讨厌的人，不快乐的人。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or overly outgoing, and it got them hurt.
或者过于外向，这让他们受伤了。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what do you recommend people do to model really good social interactions?
那么，您建议人们做什么来塑造真正良好的社交互动呢？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
So pay attention to your habits.
所以要注意自己的习惯。
That's the most important thing.
这是最重要的事情。
It's those little moments and, where I screw up, I'm prone to a quick temper and where I've made-- I still have the college football player inside me.
正是在那些小时刻，我搞砸了，我很容易发脾气，而我的内心仍然保留着大学橄榄球运动员的特质。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You like to hit things with your head?
你喜欢用头敲东西吗？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Well, I want to fix something, right?
嗯，我想解决一些问题，对吗？
And so if something's not going my way, I'll try to fix it in some way.
因此，如果有些事情不符合我的意愿，我会尝试以某种方式解决它。
And so I still have that inside me from time to time, and I have to actively try to create habits that don't do that.
所以我的内心仍然时不时地有这样的想法，我必须积极尝试养成不这样做的习惯。
So, get out of a situation if I'm getting frustrated rather than try to respond and correct it in that moment.
因此，如果我感到沮丧，请摆脱困境，而不是在那一刻尝试做出反应并纠正它。
But those little habits, that's where it shows up.
但这些小习惯，就体现出来了。
People are watching.
人们正在观看。
People are watching you in those moments.
那些时刻人们正在注视着你。
Those little things that you think aren't that important are what folks are paying attention to.
那些你认为不那么重要的小事，却是人们所关注的。
In our research, when I think about how you apply the stuff we're learning in our experiments about people being overly pessimistic about how others will respond to them, the way you apply that in your own life isn't that you learn how to behave differently from learning this.
在我们的研究中，当我思考如何应用我们在实验中学到的关于人们对其他人将如何回应他们过于悲观的东西时，你在自己的生活中应用这些东西的方式并不是要学习如何与学习这一点不同的行为。
It's that you take that, and you try to develop a little habit that then makes that something you do routinely over and over again.
就是你接受它，然后尝试养成一个小习惯，然后让它成为你一遍又一遍的例行公事。
So, for instance, one little thing that I have started doing with this routine little habit in mind is I've made a habit when I get into my office, and it's now expanded kind of beyond that, but I started at the office.
举例来说，我开始做的一件小事就是当我进入办公室时，我就养成了一个习惯，现在它已经超出了这个习惯，但我是从办公室开始的。
I was realizing one day that when I get to the office where the door is to get into the building, I've got maybe, I don't know, 150-yard walk through the atrium in the middle of the building to the elevators, up to the fourth floor, down my halls to my office.
有一天我意识到，当我到达通往大楼的办公室时，我可能需要步行 150 码（我不知道），穿过大楼中间的中庭到达电梯，上到四楼，沿着大厅到达我的办公室。
And I was usually making that walk with my head down, focused on getting to work as quickly as I could.
我通常低着头走路，专注于尽快上班。
And I was passing all these people by without saying hello or hi or whatever, and I was missing all these opportunities just to brighten my mood a little bit there.
我与这些人擦肩而过，没有打招呼或打招呼，我错过了所有这些机会，只是为了让我的心情稍微好一点。
And so I started doing a little happiness walk, a little hello walk when I'd go from the door to my office.
因此，当我从门口走到办公室时，我开始做一点快乐步行，一点你好步行。
Where now, when I walk in, I keep my head up, and I smile and say hello to almost everybody I pass if I can, right?
现在，当我走进去时，我会抬起头，微笑着，如果可以的话，几乎向我经过的每个人打招呼，对吧？
So this last quarter, Nigel's been sitting right here to my right when I walk in at the table.
所以上个季度，当我走进桌子时，奈杰尔就坐在我的右边。
And Keith, who's got the biggest smile in the building, one of our custodial staff, is delightful.
基思（Keith）是大楼里笑容最灿烂的人，他是我们的保管人员之一，他很令人愉快。
Mario's usually somewhere around the second floor.
马里奥通常在二楼附近的某个地方。
I can give him a shout-out on the way in.
我可以在进来的时候大声喊他。
Zya is often around the elevator when I walk in.
当我走进电梯时，Zya 经常在电梯周围。
Eric, Virginia, Jane, Emma, Joe, my colleagues, when I walk in, I give them a shout-out hello when I walk by their offices.
埃里克、弗吉尼亚、简、艾玛、乔，我的同事们，当我走进他们的办公室时，我会大声向他们打招呼。
And that whole thing, that just makes me a little brighter when I get to my office.
当我到达办公室时，这整件事让我变得更加聪明。
And it's also created a habit that I now just do without thinking, right?
这也养成了我现在不假思索就做的习惯，对吗？
And those little moments that become part of who you are, that's what people see.
那些成为你的一部分的小时刻，就是人们所看到的。
And I think as a parent, if you can think about how can you cultivate those habits to do these things routinely because your kids are watching all the time, that's what's going to matter.
我认为作为父母，如果你能考虑如何培养这些习惯来定期做这些事情，因为你的孩子一直在看，这才是重要的。
I had a colleague one time, I thought this was very wise.
有一次我有一个同事，我认为这是非常明智的。
He realized that he was sometimes swearing in class.
他意识到自己有时在课堂上说脏话。
And I sometimes am guilty of that, too.
有时我也会为此感到内疚。
That's my college football player coming out.
那是我的大学橄榄球运动员出来了。
I've got to be careful.
我必须小心。
I try not to do that.
我尽量不这样做。
But I had one colleague who was adamant, and this is really what got me started thinking about this years ago, just you never slip up in class because when you do that there, people see that, and they think that's who you are and what's appropriate in that context.
但我有一位态度坚定的同事，这确实是让我几年前开始思考的原因，只是你永远不会在课堂上犯错，因为当你在那里这样做时，人们会看到这一点，他们认为这就是你是谁，在那种情况下什么是合适的。
And that's just not the way you want to be.
但这并不是您想要的方式。
So he's made a habit of never doing that anywhere, in any part of his life, so that he also doesn't do it in class.
所以他养成了一种习惯，在他生活的任何地方、任何部分都不会这样做，所以他在课堂上也不会这样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I like the notion of classroom rules.
我喜欢课堂规则的概念。
It's actually one of the only ways I've survived social media is I don't get into exchanges that I wouldn't get into in a classroom.
实际上，这是我在社交媒体中幸存下来的唯一方法之一，就是我不会进行课堂上不会进行的交流。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Good for you.
对你有好处。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I also don't honor the presence of comments.
而且我也不尊重评论的存在。
People can say what they want about me, to a point.
在某种程度上，人们可以说出他们对我的看法。
But when they start attacking each other, I always think, if we were back in an undergraduate-
但当他们开始互相攻击时，我总是想，如果我们回到本科生——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
graduate or medical school classroom, I would never let this exchange-
研究生或医学院的课堂，我永远不会让这种交流-
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
You'd stop
你会停下来
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
occur.
发生。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this is my website, so.
这是我的网站，所以。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Blocked.
被封锁。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And people think, "Oh, you're blocking things, you're deleting." It's not to avoid criticism, it's like we're trying to keep a tone of education and respect.
人们会想，“哦，你在屏蔽一些东西，你在删除。”这并不是为了避免批评，而是我们试图保持教育和尊重的基调。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
And it can be heated, but so I fully appreciate what you just said.
而且它可以加热，所以我完全理解你刚才所说的。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
And I think the key to that is that it's not a huge thing, it's a small thing that you do routinely and over and over again.
我认为关键在于这不是一件大事，而是一件你经常做、一遍又一遍的小事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
And those small habits are important to keep in mind.
记住这些小习惯很重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've been told by some of the people that are regular kind of commenters and things that they feel safe to comment there.
一些经常发表评论的人告诉我，他们觉得在那里发表评论是安全的。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Nice.
不错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which tells me they feel-
这告诉我他们觉得——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
unsafe to comment elsewhere.
在其他地方评论不安全。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
On other places, yeah.
在其他地方，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the safe/unsafe thing, I'm not trying to use snowflake language.
安全/不安全的事情是，我不想使用雪花语言。
I think, who wants to go online just for people to be nasty, right?
我想，谁愿意上网只是为了让人讨厌，对吧？
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So there's a lot of goodness to be had by keeping classroom rules, I guess-
所以遵守课堂规则有很多好处，我想——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Correct
正确
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as we.
作为我们。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, Nick, thank you so much for coming here today and sharing.
好吧，尼克，非常感谢你今天来到这里分享。
I really appreciate you taking the time out of your schedule, and I also really appreciate the work you do.
我非常感谢您在百忙之中抽出时间，我也非常感谢您所做的工作。
Also, thank you for writing the book, 'A Little More Social: How Small Choices Create Unexpected Happiness, Health, and Connection', which comes out very soon.
另外，感谢您撰写《多一点社交：小选择如何创造意外的幸福、健康和联系》一书，该书很快就会出版。
I'm excited to read it.
我很高兴读到它。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Thank you, Andrew.
谢谢你，安德鲁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I have to say, of all the guests we've ever had on this podcast, I think you represent the kind of extreme example of somebody whose work has informed their life and life has informed their work.
我不得不说，在我们这个播客上的所有嘉宾中，我认为你代表了一种极端的例子，他们的工作影响了他们的生活，生活也影响了他们的工作。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that's somewhat straightforward to do when it always makes for kind of the easier, better, obvious choice.
当它总是能带来更容易、更好、明显的选择时，这在某种程度上是很简单的。
Like, oh, did research, discovered this style of cardiovascular exercise is better than that one, I'm going to do that one.
就像，哦，做了研究，发现这种心血管运动比那种更好，我要做那种。
But as you pointed out, it's brought many, many rewards than it has challenges.
但正如您所指出的，它带来的回报多于挑战。
But in your case, your sensitivity to the theme of your work, which is that there's goodness and untapped beauty to be had in the spaces that we don't reflexively step into, and that maybe even we initially are a little averse to-
但就你而言，你对作品主题的敏感度，即在我们不本能地踏入的空间中存在着善良和未开发的美，甚至可能我们一开始也有点反感——
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that that's where the real magic often lies.
这就是真正的魔力所在。
And you applied it in your own life in the realest of ways, and you benefit, too.
你以最真实的方式将它应用到自己的生活中，你也会受益。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that's the whole point.
这就是重点。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So thank you for being both a scholar and a shining example of what you've taught us today.
因此，感谢您既是一位学者，也是您今天所教给我们的光辉榜样。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Thank you so much, Andrew.
非常感谢你，安德鲁。
It's been wonderful being here.
来到这里真是太棒了。
I really appreciate it.
我真的很感激。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All right.
好吧。
Well, come back again.
嗯，再回来吧。
Dr. Nick Epley:
尼克·艾普利博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
I would love to.
我很乐意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Nick Epley.
感谢您参加今天与 Nick Epley 博士的讨论。
To learn more about his work and to find a link to his new book entitled 'A Little More Social: How Small Choices Create Unexpected Happiness, Health, and Connection', please see the links in the show note captions.
要了解有关他的作品的更多信息，并找到他题为“更多一点社交：如何微小的选择创造意外的幸福、健康和联系”的新书的链接，请参阅演出注释标题中的链接。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的关注按钮来关注播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review, and you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您可以给我们留下五星级的评论，现在您可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客或嘉宾有意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑的主题，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled 'Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body.' This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这本书是我花了五年多时间编写的，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验。
And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
它涵盖了从睡眠到运动再到压力控制的所有协议，以及与注意力和动机相关的协议，当然，我为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called 'Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body.' And if you're not already following me on social media, I am hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 hubermanlab。
So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。
Again, it's hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
再说一遍，所有社交媒体平台上都是 hubermanlab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries, as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要，以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available completely zero cost.
所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter and enter your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯并输入您的电子邮件即可。
And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Nick Epley.
再次感谢您参加今天与 Nick Epley 博士的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。