How to Lose Fat & Gain Muscle With Nutrition | Alan Aragon

Andrew Huberman Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science, and science-based tools for everyday life.

Andrew Huberman 欢迎来到 Huberman 实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学以及基于科学的日常生活工具。

Andrew Huberman I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

安德鲁·胡伯曼 我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，我是斯坦福大学医学院的神经生物学和眼科教授。

Andrew Huberman My guest today is Alan Aragon.

安德鲁·胡伯曼 今天我的客人是艾伦·阿拉贡。

Alan Aragon is one of the most influential and respected figures in the fields of fitness and nutrition.

艾伦·阿拉贡 (Alan Aragon) 是健身和营养领域最有影响力和最受尊敬的人物之一。

The reason for that is because of his strict reliance on evidence-based information, and because he's co-authored some of the most highly cited and respected studies and reviews on nutrition and fitness.

原因是他严格依赖基于证据的信息，并且因为他与人合着了一些最被引用和最受尊敬的营养和健身研究和评论。

His expertise covers nutrition and training for women and for men, and for anyone who's seeking better health, fat loss, muscle and strength gain, or all of the above.

他的专业知识涵盖女性和男性的营养和训练，以及任何寻求更好健康、减肥、肌肉和力量增加或以上所有目标的人。

And in today's episode, we cover all of that, and much more.

在今天的节目中，我们将介绍所有这些内容，甚至更多。

Alan clarifies the myths, and the facts around things like seed oils, whether or not it's better to do your workouts fasted for sake of fat burning, low calorie and artificial sweeteners, sugar, alcohol, collagen, and more.

艾伦澄清了关于种子油等事物的误解和事实，无论是为了燃烧脂肪、低热量和人工甜味剂、糖、酒精、胶原蛋白等而禁食锻炼是否更好。

Alan also explains how to determine your actual protein needs.

艾伦还解释了如何确定您的实际蛋白质需求。

Despite all the discussion nowadays about protein, there's still a lot of confusion about this actually.

尽管现在有很多关于蛋白质的讨论，但实际上仍然存在很多困惑。

He covers the real science on meal timing, protein and carbohydrate intake relative to your training, how women's hormone cycles impact their training and nutrition needs, and eating and training for body composition changes for anyone.

他涵盖了有关进餐时间、与训练相关的蛋白质和碳水化合物摄入量、女性荷尔蒙周期如何影响其训练和营养需求以及任何人身体成分变化的饮食和训练等方面的真正科学知识。

Andrew Huberman There is just so much advice and information online, but also in the peer reviewed literature on nutrition and fitness nowadays, which makes it very challenging for anyone seeking to understand and implement what really matters toward their fitness and body composition goals.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）网上有太多的建议和信息，而且当今有关营养和健身的同行评审文献中也有很多建议和信息，这对于任何寻求理解和实施对其健身和身体成分目标真正重要的因素的人来说都非常具有挑战性。

If ever there was a voice of practical reason who is grounded in the peer review data, but who is also willing to acknowledge individual differences and preferences when it comes to fitness and nutrition, it's Alan Aragon.

如果说有一个基于同行评审数据的实际理性声音，但在健身和营养方面也愿意承认个体差异和偏好，那么这个人就是艾伦·阿拉贡(Alan Aragon)。

And today, he shares that information with us, and he also makes it clear and actionable as to what really works.

今天，他与我们分享了这些信息，并且他还明确说明了真正有效的方法，并且具有可操作性。

Thanks to Alan, by the end of today's episode, you will be armed with the latest and best knowledge on nutrition and fitness that you can apply.

感谢艾伦，在今天的节目结束时，您将掌握可以应用的最新、最好的营养和健身知识。

Andrew Huberman Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

Andrew Huberman 在我们开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是将有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息带给公众。

In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.

为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。

And now for my discussion with Alan Aragon.

现在我与艾伦·阿拉贡进行讨论。

Andrew Huberman Alan Aragon, welcome.

安德鲁·胡伯曼·艾伦·阿拉贡，欢迎。

Alan Aragon Andrew, it is awesome to be here.

艾伦·阿拉贡·安德鲁，来到这里真是太棒了。

Literally awesome.

简直太棒了。

It's no exaggeration.

一点也不夸张。

I'm super stoked, man.

我非常兴奋，伙计。

Thank you for having me on the show.

谢谢你邀请我参加这个节目。

Andrew Huberman Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼 是的。

Well, I've learned a ton from you through our online correspondence, and we've met once before in person.

嗯，通过我们的在线通信，我从你那里学到了很多东西，而且我们以前见过一次面。

Let's get down to some important topics that are very actionable, because this is what I love so much about your work.

让我们开始讨论一些非常可行的重要主题，因为这就是我非常喜欢你的工作的地方。

It clarifies so much of the confusion that exists out there.

它澄清了存在的许多混乱。

I think this is really one of the signatures of your work, is that it clarifies.

我认为这确实是你工作的标志之一，它澄清了。

Let's start off with something that many people have heard, which is that we can only assimilate 30 grams of protein per meal.

让我们从很多人都听说过的事情开始，那就是我们每餐只能吸收30克蛋白质。

Alan Aragon Mm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 M.

Andrew Huberman And the simple question is, what constitutes a meal?

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman） 简单的问题是，一顿饭是什么？

If I eat 30 grams of protein, and an hour later, I eat 30 grams of protein, did I just eat two meals?

如果我吃了30克蛋白质，一个小时后，我吃了30克蛋白质，我是不是只吃了两顿饭？

Can I assimilate 30 grams in each?

我可以每份吸收30克吗？

And can I assimilate more than 30 grams of protein under certain circumstances?

在某些情况下我可以吸收超过30克的蛋白质吗？

What's the deal with this protein assimilation thing?

这个蛋白质同化是怎么回事？

Alan Aragon Okay.

艾伦·阿拉贡 好的。

Well, you elucidated one of the issues right in the question.

嗯，您在问题中阐明了其中一个问题。

Are we talking about isolated, quickly digesting protein, or are we talking about a slower digesting protein, or are we talking about any one of those within the context of a mixed macro-nutrient meal with carbohydrate, fat, fiber?

我们是在谈论分离的、快速消化的蛋白质，还是在谈论消化较慢的蛋白质，或者我们是在与碳水化合物、脂肪、纤维混合的大量营养餐的背景下谈论其中任何一种蛋白质？

All of those conditions alter the behavior of what happens physiologically.

所有这些条件都会改变生理上发生的行为。

Alan Aragon And so the origin of the whole 25 grams of protein max is all you can use, is the confusion of two separate concepts.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）因此，“25克蛋白质最大量是你可以使用的全部”的起源，是两个独立概念的混淆。

There is digestion and utilization at the kind of entire body level, where protein has various metabolic fates for various systems, and just various homeostatic needs of the body.

在整个身体水平上存在消化和利用，其中蛋白质对于不同系统具有不同的代谢命运，并且只是身体的不同稳态需求。

And then there is the specific phenomenon of the muscle anabolic response, or muscle protein synthesis.

然后是肌肉合成代谢反应或肌肉蛋白质合成的特定现象。

So, we have to separate digestion and absorption in general, or muscle protein synthesis.

所以，我们必须将一般的消化和吸收，或者肌肉蛋白质的合成分开。

So, the 25, 30 gram cut off, it's usually listed at, some people say 20, that refers specifically to muscle protein synthesis, where there seems to be a plateau at 25-ish, 30-ish grams.

因此，25、30 克的截止量通常列在，有些人说 20，它特指肌肉蛋白质合成，在 25 克、30 克左右似乎有一个平台期。

And we thought this all the way from the late '90s, early 2000s, all the way up until 2016-ish or so.

从 20 世纪 90 年代末、2000 年代初，一直到 2016 年左右，我们一直这么认为。

Alan Aragon 2016, when McNaughton and colleagues compared 20 grams of protein, versus 40 grams of protein, but instead of doing what previous researchers did with the training routes being very low volume, like 8 to 12 sets, a couple different leg exercises, leg extensions, leg presses, 8 to 12 sets total.

Alan Aragon 2016，当时 McNaughton 和同事比较了 20 克蛋白质和 40 克蛋白质，但他们没有像以前的研究人员那样，训练路线的训练量非常小，比如 8 到 12 组，而是进行了几种不同的腿部练习，腿部伸展、腿部推举，总共 8 到 12 组。

And then you assess the muscle protein synthetic response to the protein dose.

然后评估肌肉蛋白质合成对蛋白质剂量的反应。

What McNaughton and colleagues did, they hit the subjects with a 24-ish set regimen, full body.

麦克诺顿和同事所做的是，他们用 24 种左右的全身疗法来攻击受试者。

So, it was a little bit more ecologically valid, in the sense that they tried to mirror what goes on in the real-world with training regimens, with people who are trying to build muscle and really elicit this anabolic response.

因此，这在生态上更有效，因为他们试图通过训练方案来反映现实世界中发生的情况，以及那些试图增强肌肉并真正引发这种合成代谢反应的人。

So, when they ran this experiment and they compared 20 versus 40 grams of protein, the 40 grams of protein actually had a greater muscle protein synthesis response than the 20 grams.

因此，当他们进行这个实验并比较 20 克和 40 克蛋白质时，40 克蛋白质实际上比 20 克蛋白质具有更大的肌肉蛋白质合成反应。

And it took us all the way to 2016 to figure that out.

直到 2016 年我们才弄清楚这一点。

And then, a series of studies just kind of progressed from there and proceeded to kind of debunk this idea that muscle protein synthesis plateaus at 20, 25 grams.

然后，一系列的研究就此展开，并进一步揭穿了肌肉蛋白质合成稳定在 20、25 克的观点。

And there's some interesting recent studies on that as well.

最近也有一些有趣的研究。

Andrew Huberman Up to 100 grams, as I recall.

Andrew Huberman 我记得最多 100 克。

Alan Aragon That's exactly the study I was going to bring up.

艾伦·阿拉贡：这正是我要提出的研究。

That's by Jorn Trommelen and colleagues, where they compared a 25-gram dose with a 100-gram dose, post-exercise.

这是 Jorn Trommelen 及其同事的研究成果，他们在运动后比较了 25 克剂量和 100 克剂量。

They used a slow digesting protein.

他们使用了一种缓慢消化的蛋白质。

They used milk protein, which is 80% casein, which is a slow digesting 20% whey, which is fast.

他们使用牛奶蛋白，其中 80% 是酪蛋白，而 20% 是消化缓慢的乳清，但消化速度很快。

So, mostly a slow digesting protein.

所以，主要是消化缓慢的蛋白质。

And there was significantly greater muscle protein synthesis with the 100-gram dose, compared to the 25-gram dose.

与 25 克剂量相比，100 克剂量的肌肉蛋白质合成显着增加。

But my big issue with that study is they really needed to include an intermediate dose, to see whether there would have been a plateau in MPS with something like, let's say, 40 or 50 grams.

但我对这项研究的一个大问题是，他们确实需要包括中间剂量，以观察 MPS 是否会在 40 或 50 克之类的剂量下达到稳定水平。

And that's because there's a lot of other research seeing that plateau somewhere between 30 and 50 grams.

那是因为有很多其他研究发现这个稳定值在 30 到 50 克之间。

So, I wish Jorn et al.

所以，我希望乔恩等人。

included an intermediate dose with that.

其中包括中间剂量。

Andrew Huberman Maybe a future study.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）也许是未来的研究。

Let me just pause you for a second and ask a couple questions.

让我暂停一下并问几个问题。

Alan Aragon Sure.

艾伦·阿拉贡 当然。

Andrew Huberman If you can give an across-the-board recommendation of how much protein people should consume post-resistance training.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）是否可以就人们在抗阻训练后应该摄入多少蛋白质给出全面的建议。

Let's just leave cardiovascular training separately for the moment.

我们暂时先把心血管训练分开吧。

Post-resistance training, what would that number be?

抗阻训练后，这个数字是多少？

Would it be 20, 30, 50, or 100?

是 20、30、50 还是 100？

Should it scale with body weight?

它应该与体重成比例吗？

And how long after training should one consume that protein, if the goal is muscle protein synthesis?

如果目标是肌肉蛋白质合成，训练后应该多长时间消耗该蛋白质？

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon To maximize muscle protein synthesis, regardless of whether it's post exercise, and MPS will be larger with the protein dosing post-exercise, than at resting or fasting.

Alan Aragon 为了最大限度地提高肌肉蛋白质合成，无论是否在运动后，运动后服用蛋白质剂量时的 MPS 都会比静息或禁食时更大。

To maximize MPS, we really haven't seen doses beyond 50-ish grams, 30 or so, to 50.

为了最大限度地提高 MPS，我们确实没有见过超过 50 克（30 克左右，到 50 克）的剂量。

My colleague, Brad Schoenfeld, and I, we scoured the literature, and we wrote this paper on 'What is the maximal anabolic dose of protein per meal for the goal of muscle building?' And we boiled it down to somewhere between 0.4 to roughly 0.6 grams per kilogram of body weight.

我和我的同事布拉德·舍恩菲尔德 (Brad Schoenfeld) 查阅了文献，并撰写了这篇论文，题为“为了增强肌肉的目标，每餐蛋白质的最大合成代谢剂量是多少？”我们将其降低到每公斤体重 0.4 到大约 0.6 克之间。

And so, in freedom units, we're talking 0.2 to 0.25 grams per pound, and that is what appears to max out muscle protein synthesis.

因此，在自由度单位中，我们所说的是每磅 0.2 至 0.25 克，这似乎可以最大限度地提高肌肉蛋白质的合成。

Andrew Huberman 0.2 to 0.5 grams per pound.

Andrew Huberman 每磅 0.2 至 0.5 克。

Alan Aragon 0.2 to 0.25.

艾伦·阿拉贡 0.2 至 0.25。

Andrew Huberman 0.25?

安德鲁·休伯曼 0.25？

Alan Aragon Yes.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Andrew Huberman Okay.

安德鲁·休伯曼 好吧。

Alan Aragon Yeah, so like about a quarter of your body weight in pounds, if you're looking at grams of protein, to maximize muscle protein synthesis.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）是的，如果你考虑的是蛋白质的克数，那么大约是你体重的四分之一（以磅为单位），以最大限度地提高肌肉蛋白质的合成。

Andrew Huberman Per meal?

安德鲁·休伯曼 每顿饭？

Alan Aragon Yes, per meal.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的，每餐。

Andrew Huberman Okay, sorry, because I think many people, including myself, are going to say, "Okay, but this is only in the meal post-workout?" I wake up in the morning and I try to work out before I eat, because I like to do that.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）好吧，抱歉，因为我想很多人，包括我自己，都会说，“好吧，但这只是在锻炼后的膳食中？”我早上起床后会尝试在吃饭前锻炼身体，因为我喜欢这样做。

Sometimes I'll have a little bit of protein.

有时我会吃一点蛋白质。

But let's assume two conditions, just for simplicity.

但为了简单起见，我们假设两个条件。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Alan Aragon Sure.

艾伦·阿拉贡 当然。

Andrew Huberman Somebody did resistance training in the previous two hours.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）有人在前两个小时内进行了阻力训练。

And they're trying to evaluate how much protein to eat at that meal in order to maximize muscle protein synthesis.

他们正在尝试评估这一餐应该吃多少蛋白质，以最大限度地提高肌肉蛋白质的合成。

Or they're eating a meal separate, on a day they're not resistance training.

或者他们在不进行阻力训练的一天单独吃一顿饭。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Andrew Huberman Right?

安德鲁·休伯曼 对吗？

Alan Aragon Yeah, yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的，是的。

Andrew Huberman And then, as just kind of a generic example of a meal that doesn't follow resistance training in the window of two hours or so, how much protein should be consumed at these two different meals?

Andrew Huberman 然后，作为一个在两小时左右的时间内不进行阻力训练的膳食的一般例子，这两顿不同的膳食应该消耗多少蛋白质？

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯

Alan Aragon The answer to that is so weird, Andrew, honestly.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）老实说，安德鲁，这个答案太奇怪了。

Andrew Huberman Really?

安德鲁·休伯曼 真的吗？

Why does it have to be so weird?

为什么一定要这么奇怪呢？

Alan Aragon It's freaking weird, and it's complicated.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon） 这太奇怪了，而且很复杂。

Andrew Huberman Oh.

安德鲁·休伯曼哦。

Alan Aragon Okay.

艾伦·阿拉贡 好的。

So, if we go all the way back to 2003, 2004, and then we walk forward 20 years.

所以，如果我们一直追溯到2003年、2004年，然后我们再向前走20年。

Alan Aragon So, John Ivy and Robert Portman put out this book called, 'Nutrient Timing', and they focused on this narrow post-exercise window of opportunity, they called it.

艾伦·阿拉贡·苏 (Alan Aragon So)、约翰·艾维 (John Ivy) 和罗伯特·波特曼 (Robert Portman) 出版了这本书，名为《营养时机》，他们将重点放在运动后这个狭窄的机会窗口上。

So, the anabolic window.

所以，合成代谢窗口。

The concept was you needed to consume protein, and quickly digesting carbs.

这个概念是你需要消耗蛋白质，并快速消化碳水化合物。

So, a fast-digesting protein, lightning fast, highly glycemic, highly insulinemic carb source, together within 30 to 60 minutes post-exercise, in order to maximize the anabolic response, maximize recovery, and then maximize your muscle gain.

因此，在运动后 30 至 60 分钟内摄入快速消化的蛋白质、快如闪电、高血糖、高胰岛素的碳水​​化合物来源，可以最大限度地提高合成代谢反应，最大限度地恢复，然后最大限度地增加肌肉。

So, that was their hypothesis.

所以，这就是他们的假设。

This was all based on subjects who were training after an overnight fast.

这一切都是基于在一夜禁食后进行训练的受试者。

And so, what happens when you consume a meal pre-exercise, or at any point, let's say, and a regular old mixed meal, medium size, the anabolic/anticatabolic effect of that meal is going to last anywhere from three to six hours, depending on the size of the meal.

因此，当你在运动前或任何时候吃一顿饭时，比如说，一顿普通的混合餐，中等份量，该餐的合成代谢/抗分解代谢作用将持续三到六个小时，具体取决于膳食的量。

Alan Aragon So, when you're somebody whose goal it is, above all the other goals, is to gain muscle at the quickest rate possible, you're almost never going to train fasted.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）所以，当你的目标是以尽可能快的速度增加肌肉（最重要的是其他目标）时，你几乎永远不会空腹训练。

You're going to have a pre-exercise meal at some point, at least a couple hours pre-exercise.

您将在某个时候吃一顿运动前餐，至少在运动前几个小时。

And so, when you're training, you actually still have these substrates in circulation through the exercise bout.

因此，当您进行训练时，实际上您仍然有这些基质在训练过程中循环。

And oftentimes, if somebody has a meal an hour pre-exercise, they're still absorbing that pre-exercised meal, post-exercise.

通常，如果有人在运动前一小时吃了一顿饭，他们在运动后仍然会吸收运动前的食物。

We looked at this whole post-exercise period as something that just doesn't necessarily have any external validity.

我们将整个运动后时期视为不一定具有任何外部有效性的东西。

It doesn't have relevance to real-world training conditions, where people are not training fasted.

它与现实世界的训练条件无关，因为人们没有空腹训练。

And so, what we did was a couple of things.

因此，我们做了几件事。

First, we wrote a narrative review criticizing the post-exercise anabolic window.

首先，我们写了一篇批评运动后合成代谢窗口的叙述性评论。

And this was in 2013.

那是在2013年。

We kind of p***ed off all the researchers who did the seminal work in that area.

我们有点赶走了所有在该领域做出开创性工作的研究人员。

Andrew Huberman Mm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 M.

Andrew Huberman I'm sensing a theme here.

安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）我在这里感受到了一个主题。

Just teasing.

只是逗弄而已。

Alan Aragon And we did a meta-analysis of the existing literature looking at the anabolic window thing.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）我们对现有文献进行了荟萃分析，研究合成代谢窗口的问题。

For the listeners, a meta-analysis is a study of the studies.

对于听众来说，荟萃分析是对研究的研究。

You collect all of the studies on a given question, and then you look at effect sizes, and you sort of see where the evidence leans, whether there's a significant or meaningful effect or not.

你收集针对给定问题的所有研究，然后查看效果大小，然后你可以了解证据的倾向，是否有显着或有意义的效果。

And so, we did this meta-analysis, and we collected studies that compared a protein timing condition, where protein was timed within an hour, either pre- or post-exercise.

因此，我们进行了荟萃分析，并收集了比较蛋白质计时条件的研究，其中蛋白质计时在一小时内，无论是运动前还是运动后。

And then the control group of the study would have to have protein, a minimum of two hours of nutrient neglect on both sides of the training bout.

然后，研究的对照组必须补充蛋白质，训练双方至少要忽视两个小时的营养。

So, we collected all the studies that compared these conditions.

因此，我们收集了所有比较这些条件的研究。

We had a brilliant stats guy, James Krieger.

我们有一位出色的统计人员，詹姆斯·克里格。

He ran the regression analysis.

他进行了回归分析。

And essentially, we found that as long as the total daily protein was about 1.66, 1.7 grams per kilogram of body weight, so about 0.7 grams per pound, as long as total daily protein was at that or more, then the timing relative to the training bout didn't make a difference.

本质上，我们发现，只要每日总蛋白质约为每公斤体重 1.66、1.7 克，即每磅体重约 0.7 克，只要每日总蛋白质等于或更多，那么相对于训练回合的时间安排就没有什么区别。

Andrew Huberman This is important for people to hear, because what this translates to in my ears is a very simple takeaway, which is that you don't need to obsess about the post-training anabolic window, especially if you're eating prior to training.

Andrew Huberman 这对人们来说很重要，因为这在我耳中意味着一个非常简单的收获，那就是你不需要痴迷于训练后的合成代谢窗口，特别是如果你在训练前吃东西的话。

Alan Aragon Yes.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Andrew Huberman Because you have nutrients circulating.

Andrew Huberman 因为你有营养物质循环。

Now, if you eat your last bite of food at 8:00 PM, and you wake up at 7:00 AM, and you're training at 10:00 AM, then perhaps by the time you finish your leg workout, or whatever resistance training workout, you would want to prioritize getting some protein and other nutrients into your system.

现在，如果您在晚上 8:00 吃完最后一口食物，早上 7:00 起床，并在上午 10:00 进行训练，那么也许当您完成腿部锻炼或任何阻力训练锻炼时，您会希望优先考虑将一些蛋白质和其他营养物质带入您的系统。

What you're saying, basically, it's so logical now that I hear it, which is that you have nutrients circulating in your body and stored in your glycogen, and so you're pulling from a reservoir.

你所说的，基本上，现在我听到它是非常合乎逻辑的，那就是你的体内有营养物质循环并储存在你的糖原中，所以你是从一个储存库中提取的。

If fasted doesn't necessarily mean starving.

禁食并不一定意味着挨饿。

Alan Aragon Sure.

艾伦·阿拉贡 当然。

Alan Aragon General rule of thumb, if you're burping your pre-exercise meal towards the end of your workout, then you don't need to run towards this-

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）一般经验法则，如果您在锻炼结束时在运动前打嗝，那么您不需要朝这个方向跑-

Andrew Huberman Oh, this is why I don't like to ingest anything prior to training.

Andrew Huberman 哦，这就是为什么我不喜欢在训练前摄入任何东西。

Alan Aragon Okay.

艾伦·阿拉贡 好的。

Andrew Huberman Besides caffeine, electrolytes, and water.

Andrew Huberman 除了咖啡因、电解质和水。

Alan Aragon The reason why there's a weird and complex answer with this is a single resistance training bout causes this interesting cascade of things where muscle protein synthesis will peak 24 hours after the resistance training bout.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）之所以有一个奇怪而复杂的答案，是因为单次阻力训练会导致一系列有趣的事情，其中​​肌肉蛋白质合成将在阻力训练后 24 小时达到峰值。

And it will take as long as 48 to 72 hours to come down to baseline levels to where you had not done the resistance training bout.

需要长达 48 到 72 小时的时间才能降至您未进行阻力训练的基线水平。

So, the anabolic window is actually not hours, but days.

所以，合成代谢窗口实际上不是几个小时，而是几天。

So, it's more a matter of making sure you are consuming.

所以，更重要的是确保你正在消费。

Well, the first in the order of importance is total daily protein.

嗯，按重要性排序，第一个是每日总蛋白质。

So, there's this hierarchy of importance.

所以，存在着重要性的等级制度。

If you get total daily protein right, then the timing of the constituent doses of the total are just a distant secondary concern.

如果你的每日总蛋白质摄入量正确，那么总摄入量的时间安排就只是一个遥远的次要问题了。

Andrew Huberman Hm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯。

Andrew Huberman Even if it's only distributed across two meals?

Andrew Huberman 即使它只分配在两顿饭中？

Like let's say, I train in the morning, maybe I have some caffeine, and a scoop of protein shake before, with some whey protein, maybe a few almonds to slow digestion down or whatever.

比如说，我早上训练，也许我会喝一些咖啡因，之前喝一勺蛋白质奶昔，再加上一些乳清蛋白，也许一些杏仁来减缓消化或其他什么。

Train, and then I don't get to eat until 3:00 PM.

训练，然后直到下午 3:00 才能吃饭。

And I only train for an hour, let's say.

比方说，我只训练一个小时。

And then at 3:00 PM I have a little bit of a chicken breast and a salad, maybe a slice of bread because I'm on the fly.

然后在下午 3:00，我吃了一点鸡胸肉和一份沙拉，也许还有一片面包，因为我很忙。

And then that night I get home and I'm hungry, and I eat two rib-eye steaks.

那天晚上我回到家，我饿了，我吃了两块肋眼牛排。

I'm exaggerating here.

我在这里夸张了。

I wouldn't do that.

我不会那样做。

I'd like to, but I don't.

我愿意，但我不这样做。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Mm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 M.

Alan Aragon Mm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 M.

Andrew Huberman Those two rib-eye steaks probably give you 75 or even 100 grams of protein and a bunch of other things too.

Andrew Huberman 这两块肋眼牛排可能为您提供 75 甚至 100 克蛋白质以及许多其他东西。

Can you use all of that for muscle protein synthesis?

您可以将所有这些用于肌肉蛋白质合成吗？

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon The short answer is yes.

艾伦·阿拉贡 (Alan Aragon) 简短的回答是肯定的。

The nuanced answer is, let me tell you about a couple studies.

微妙的答案是，让我告诉你一些研究。

Andrew Huberman Okay.

安德鲁·休伯曼 好的。

Well, as you do that, but, let me ask it a little differently.

好吧，当你这样做的时候，但是，让我问一个稍微不同的问题。

Not to shut down the emphasis on studies, because that's why you're here.

不要放弃对学习的重视，因为这就是你来这里的原因。

But is there anything wrong with consuming a high, or very high protein meal every once in a while?

但是偶尔吃一顿高蛋白或非常高蛋白的饭有什么问题吗？

Especially if you're not eating much or consuming much protein throughout the day.

特别是如果您全天吃得不多或摄入的蛋白质不多。

And the reason I ask, this is for practical reasons.

我之所以这么问，是出于实际原因。

Many people find it difficult to distribute their protein evenly through the day.

许多人发现很难在一天中均匀分配蛋白质。

Many people also find it difficult to get enough protein in the middle of the day meals, or the morning meals.

许多人还发现很难在中午或早餐中获取足够的蛋白质。

It can be done, and I know people will say, "Well, you have some eggs and some protein." There are ways to do it, sure.

这是可以做到的，我知道人们会说，“好吧，你有一些鸡蛋和一些蛋白质。”当然，有办法做到这一点。

But, at least in this country, most people tend to emphasize dinner as their largest meal, for better or worse.

但是，至少在这个国家，大多数人倾向于强调晚餐是他们最丰盛的一餐，无论好坏。

And you can usually order high quality, high protein foods in a restaurant, like a steak, chicken breast, fish, et cetera.

你通常可以在餐馆点高质量、高蛋白的食物，比如牛排、鸡胸肉、鱼等等。

So, a lot of people stack their protein heavily towards the end of the day.

因此，很多人在一天结束时会大量摄入蛋白质。

Assuming caloric load is appropriate, et cetera, is there anything fundamentally wrong or bad about doing that, from the perspective of body composition, and health?

假设热量负荷是适当的，等等，从身体成分和健康的角度来看，这样做有什么根本上的错误或坏处吗？

Alan Aragon Sure.

艾伦·阿拉贡 当然。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯

Alan Aragon Sure.

艾伦·阿拉贡 当然。

Alan Aragon I would say no. And then there's levels to it.

艾伦·阿拉贡 我会说不。然后还有层次。

What population are we looking at?

我们关注的是哪些人群？

Are we looking at guys who are trying to win a national competition in bodybuilding, for example?

例如，我们正在寻找那些试图赢得全国健美比赛的人吗？

Or professionally, or-

或者在专业上，或者——

Andrew Huberman No.

安德鲁·休伯曼 没有。

Andrew Huberman No. We're talking about men and women, teens up to 75 years old, who are trying to be fit by doing a combination of resistance training, and hopefully some cardiovascular training as well.

Andrew Huberman 不。我们谈论的是男性和女性，75 岁以下的青少年，他们试图通过结合阻力训练和心血管训练来保持健康。

Trying to get their steps in.

试图介入他们的脚步。

We're talking about the general population, not somebody who's trying to win a physique competition, or run a marathon or ultra.

我们谈论的是普通大众，而不是那些试图赢得体能比赛、跑马拉松或超级赛的人。

Alan Aragon Mm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 M.

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯

Alan Aragon Okay.

艾伦·阿拉贡 好的。

So, generally, no. And I want to qualify that a little bit.

所以，一般来说，不会。我想稍微限定一下这一点。

So, my colleagues and I did a study testing out this anabolic window thing.

因此，我和我的同事做了一项研究，测试了这种合成代谢窗口的情况。

This was 2014, where we tested immediate pre-exercise, 25 grams of whey protein versus immediate post-exercise, 25 grams of whey protein.

那是 2014 年，我们测试了运动前立即摄入 25 克乳清蛋白与运动后立即摄入 25 克乳清蛋白。

We ran the experiment for 10 weeks.

我们进行了 10 周的实验。

8 or 10, probably 10.

8个或10个，可能是10个。

And there was no significant advantage of either condition.

而且这两种情况都没有显着的优势。

And our thinking was, look, everybody's harping about this post-exercise anabolic window, so if there is this opportunity to consume nutrients at prime time to feed the hungry muscles, then you would want to focus on availability of nutrients in circulation, and not when you actually consume the nutrients, because there's this time course for the nutrients to peak in circulation.

我们的想法是，看，每个人都在谈论这个运动后的合成代谢窗口，所以如果有机会在黄金时间消耗营养来喂养饥饿的肌肉，那么你会想要关注循环中营养的可用性，而不是当你实际消耗营养时，因为营养在循环中达到峰值有一个时间过程。

It's usually somewhere between one and two hours after you ingest the stuff.

通常是在摄入这些物质后一到两个小时。

So, how about we consume protein immediately pre, and then it'll be peaking in the blood an hour-ish later, and then you'll be right in the anabolic window.

那么，我们可以在饭前立即摄入蛋白质，然后大约一个小时后血液中的蛋白质会达到峰值，然后您就进入了合成代谢窗口。

So, we didn't see any advantage to the immediate pre-protein versus the immediate post-protein.

因此，我们没有发现立即前蛋白与立即后蛋白相比有任何优势。

That was in 2014.

那是在2014年。

Alan Aragon So, fast forward to 2024-ish, '23, '24.

艾伦·阿拉贡 (Alan Aragon) 那么，快进到 2024 年左右，'23、'24。

One of my colleagues, Yassin Lak, he took our pre-post model, and he ran his own randomized control trial version of it, but he wanted to kind of exploit the possibility of further protein neglect on both sides of the training bout.

我的一位同事 Yassin Lak 采用了我们的前后模型，并运行了自己的随机对照试验版本，但他想利用训练双方进一步忽视蛋白质的可能性。

So, he compared an immediate pre and post 25 grams of protein, sandwiching the resistance training bout, with a group that neglected all nutrients for three hours on both sides of the resistance training bout.

因此，他将阻力训练期间前后摄入 25 克蛋白质的组与在阻力训练期间两侧均忽略所有营养素三个小时的一组进行了比较。

Total daily protein was optimized close to a gram per pound, two-ish grams per kilogram of body weight.

每日蛋白质总量优化为接近每磅一克，即每公斤体重两克左右。

No significant difference.

无显着差异。

No meaningful difference in muscle size and strength gains at the end of the, I believe it was a 10 or 12-week study.

我相信这是一项为期 10 或 12 周的研究，在结束时肌肉大小和力量增益没有显着差异。

Andrew Huberman That's very reassuring to me, because I have a busy schedule, as do many people, and sometimes I'm a little hungry before I train and I'll want a scoop of protein powder, and I'll think, "Oh, is it better?" We'll talk about whether or not it's better to train fasted, for all sorts of reasons.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）这让我很放心，因为我和很多人一样，日程安排很忙，有时在训练前我有点饿，我会想要一勺蛋白粉，然后我会想，“哦，这样更好吗？”我们将讨论出于各种原因禁食训练是否更好。

Sometimes people don't like to train fasted.

有时人们不喜欢空腹训练。

Sometimes people don't like to eat immediately after they train.

有时人们不喜欢在训练后立即吃饭。

Sometimes you have to shower up and head to dinner after you train, or shower up and head to a meeting, and you don't have the opportunity to ingest in the "anabolic window."

有时，你必须在训练后冲个澡去吃晚饭，或者冲个澡去开会，而你没有机会在“合成代谢窗口”摄取食物。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Yeah

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的

Alan Aragon Yes.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Andrew Huberman So, what I'm hearing through all these answers, correct me if I'm wrong, is that there's tremendous flexibility as to when you consume the protein that we all need, but the overall protein requirement seems to center somewhere around 0.7 to 1 gram per pound of body weight, somewhere in there, total per day.

Andrew Huberman 所以，我从所有这些答案中听到的是，如果我错了，请纠正我，当你摄入我们都需要的蛋白质时，有很大的灵活性，但总的蛋白质需求量似乎集中在每磅体重 0.7 到 1 克左右，每天的总量。

If the amount in a given meal is a bit higher than 20 or 30 grams, you're fine.

如果一顿饭中的摄入量略高于 20 或 30 克，那就没问题。

If it's a bit lower, you're probably fine.

如果它低一点，你可能没问题。

But the thing that also I believe needs highlighting, that most people don't talk about is distinguishing between what's in circulation, versus when one ingests something.

但我认为还需要强调的是，大多数人不谈论的事情是区分流通中的东西和摄入东西的时间。

We love to think that we drink 30 grams of protein, or eat the chicken breast, or the piece of steak, or have the eggs, and suddenly those amino acids are available.

我们喜欢认为我们喝了 30 克蛋白质，或者吃鸡胸肉，或者一块牛排，或者吃鸡蛋，突然间这些氨基酸就可用了。

And it makes so much more rational sense now that you describe it, that eating first makes those amino acids available for the muscles a couple hours later.

现在你所描述的更合理了，先吃东西可以让这些氨基酸在几个小时后被肌肉所利用。

And we just don't learn about it that way.

我们只是不以这种方式了解它。

So, I'm very grateful that you're bringing it up that way.

所以，我非常感谢你这样提出来。

Alan Aragon Sure.

艾伦·阿拉贡 当然。

Alan Aragon Yeah

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon It appears.

艾伦·阿拉贡 出现了。

Right

右

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Andrew Huberman I realize we could probably drill into protein requirements ad nauseum, but yeah.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）我意识到我们可能可以深入研究蛋白质需求，但是是的。

Alan Aragon Think about it this way.

艾伦·阿拉贡这样想吧。

The way I like to put it is, total daily protein is the cake.

我喜欢说的是，每日总蛋白质就是蛋糕。

The specific timing of protein relative to the training bout, that is the icing on the cake, and it's a very thin layer of icing on the cake.

蛋白质的具体时机相对于训练回合而言，那就是锦上添花，而且是非常薄的一层锦上添花。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Carbon.

Andrew Huberman 我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Carbon。

Carbon is a diet coaching app built by nutrition expert, Dr. Layne Norton.

Carbon 是一款由营养专家 Layne Norton 博士开发的饮食指导应用程序。

I've used Carbon for more than three years now.

我已经使用 Carbon 三年多了。

And I have to say, having been interested in fitness and in my nutrition for more than three decades, it's among the most powerful tools for nutrition coaching and effective weight management that I've ever encountered, especially if your goal is like mine, which is to maintain or build muscle while also losing fat.

我不得不说，三十多年来我一直对健身和营养感兴趣，它是我遇到过的最强大的营养指导和有效体重管理工具之一，特别是如果您的目标像我一样，即保持或增强肌肉，同时减掉脂肪。

Andrew Huberman Now, I'm turning 50 years old this September, and even though I consider myself in pretty good shape, and I've been training for a long time, and trying to eat right, one of my goals is to hit 50 in the absolute best shape of my life.

Andrew Huberman 现在，我今年九月就满 50 岁了，尽管我认为自己的身体状况相当好，而且我已经训练了很长时间，并努力饮食正确，但我的目标之一就是以一生中绝对最好的状态达到 50 岁。

To do that, I'm dialing in my nutrition using Carbon, with the goals of increasing my muscle mass, increasing my strength, while also decreasing my body fat.

为此，我使用碳调整营养，目标是增加肌肉质量、增强力量，同时减少体内脂肪。

I've been raving about the Carbon app to friends, and to family, and to members of my Huberman Lab team over the last few years, and everyone who's joined me in using it has found it to be tremendously useful.

在过去的几年里，我一直对朋友、家人以及我的 Huberman 实验室团队的成员们赞不绝口，每个和我一起使用它的人都发现它非常有用。

In fact, some of those people are going to join me in my approaching 50 fitness goals, and body composition goals.

事实上，其中一些人将与我一起实现接近 50 个健身目标和身体成分目标。

My birthday is September 26th, and so I'd like to invite you to join, if you would like to improve your body composition and fitness, to also use the Carbon app.

我的生日是 9 月 26 日，所以我想邀请您加入，如果您想改善身体成分和健身，也可以使用 Carbon 应用程序。

Andrew Huberman Now, there are a lot of apps out there that are focused on fitness and nutrition, but what makes Carbon different is that it doesn't just hand you a one-size-fits-all plan.

Andrew Huberman 现在，有很多专注于健身和营养的应用程序，但 Carbon 的不同之处在于，它不仅仅为您提供一刀切的计划。

It actually learns your metabolism over time, and it adapts your program based on your results.

它实际上会随着时间的推移了解您的新陈代谢，并根据您的结果调整您的计划。

It also allows you total flexibility in how you eat.

它还可以让您完全灵活地选择饮食方式。

If you're plant-based, or you're keto, high carb, low carb, anything in between, or even if you switch back and forth between different diets, Carbon works around your preferences.

如果您以植物为基础，或者您是酮类、高碳水化合物、低碳水化合物，或者介于两者之间的任何饮食，或者即使您在不同的饮食之间来回切换，碳也会根据您的喜好发挥作用。

Andrew Huberman The other thing I love about Carbon, is that it easily adapts to whether you're the type of person who likes to put in the specific brand and the exact number of ounces or grams of food that you ate, or if you tend to be a little bit looser about that, like you ate half a handful of almonds or something like that.

Andrew Huberman 我喜欢 Carbon 的另一件事是，它很容易适应你是否是那种喜欢输入特定品牌和你吃的食物的确切数量的盎司或克的人，或者你是否倾向于宽松一点，比如你吃了半把杏仁或类似的东西。

It can learn and adapt to that and still give you accurate recommendations.

它可以学习并适应这一点，并仍然为您提供准确的建议。

So, if you're looking to take a smarter, more personalized approach to your nutrition, I can't recommend the Carbon app enough.

因此，如果您希望采取更智能、更个性化的营养方法，我强烈推荐 Carbon 应用程序。

To try Carbon, you can go to joincarbon.com/huberman.

要尝试 Carbon，您可以访问 joincarbon.com/huberman。

While Carbon does not typically offer trials or promotions, they've agreed to give a free seven-day trial to all Huberman Podcast listeners.

虽然 Carbon 通常不提供试用或促销，但他们同意向所有 Huberman 播客听众提供为期 7 天的免费试用。

Again, that's joincarbon.com/huberman to get a seven-day free trial.

再次强调，请访问 joincarbon.com/huberman 以获得 7 天免费试用。

Andrew Huberman Today's episode is also brought to us by Wealthfront.

Andrew Huberman 今天的节目也是由 Wealthfront 为我们带来的。

I've been using Wealthfront for my savings and my investing for nearly a decade, and I absolutely love it.

近十年来，我一直使用 Wea​​lthfront 进行储蓄和投资，我非常喜欢它。

At the start of every year, I set new goals, and one of my goals for 2025 is to focus on saving money.

每年年初，我都会设定新的目标，2025 年的目标之一就是专注于省钱。

Since I have Wealthfront, I'll keep that savings in my Wealthfront Cash Account, where I'm able to earn 4% annual percentage yield on my deposits, and you can as well.

由于我拥有 Wealthfront，我会将这笔储蓄保留在我的 Wealthfront 现金账户中，在那里我可以通过存款赚取 4% 的年收益率，您也可以。

Andrew Huberman With Wealthfront, you can earn 4% APY on your cash from partner banks until you're ready to either spend that money or invest it.

Andrew Huberman 通过 Wealthfront，您可以从合作银行获得 4% 的现金年化收益，直到您准备好花掉这笔钱或进行投资。

With Wealthfront, you also get free instant withdrawals to eligible accounts every day, even on weekends and holidays.

通过Wealthfront，您还可以每天免费即时提款到符合条件的账户，即使在周末和节假日也是如此。

The 4% APY is not a promotional rate, and there's no limit to what you can deposit and earn.

4% 年利率并非促销利率，您可以存款和赚取的金额没有限制。

And you can even get protection for up to $8 million through FDIC insurance provided through Wealthfront's partner banks.

您甚至可以通过 Wealthfront 合作银行提供的 FDIC 保险获得高达 800 万美元的保护。

Wealthfront gives you free instant withdrawals, where it takes just minutes to transfer your money to eligible external accounts.

Wealthfront 为您提供免费即时提款，只需几分钟即可将您的资金转入符合条件的外部账户。

It also takes just minutes to transfer your cash from the Cash Account to any of Wealthfront's automated investment accounts when you're ready to invest.

当您准备好投资时，只需几分钟即可将现金从现金账户转移到 Wealthfront 的任何自动投资账户。

Andrew Huberman There are already a million people using Wealthfront to save more, earn more, and build long-term wealth.

Andrew Huberman 已有一百万人使用 Wea​​lthfront 来储蓄更多、赚取更多并建立长期财富。

Earn 4% APY on your cash today.

今天就用现金赚取 4% 年化收益。

If you'd like to try Wealthfront, go to wealthfront.com/huberman to receive a free $50 bonus with a $500 deposit into your first Cash Account.

如果您想尝试Wealthfront，请访问wealthfront.com/huberman，在您的第一个现金账户中存入500美元即可获得免费的50美元奖金。

That's wealthfront.com/huberman to get started now.

现在就开始吧：www.realityfront.com/huberman。

This has been a paid testimonial of Wealthfront.

这是 Wealthfront 的付费推荐。

Wealthfront Brokerage isn't a bank.

Wealthfront Brokerage 不是银行。

The APY is subject to change.

APY 可能会发生变化。

For more information, see the episode description.

有关更多信息，请参阅剧集描述。

Andrew Huberman Let's talk about fasted training.

Andrew Huberman 让我们谈谈禁食训练。

Alan Aragon Okay.

艾伦·阿拉贡 好的。

Andrew Huberman And whether or not it indeed burns more body fat.

安德鲁·休伯曼 以及它是否确实燃烧更多的身体脂肪。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman And here, let's expand the conversation to include cardiovascular training, and, of course, that's a vast space.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）在这里，让我们将话题扩大到心血管训练，当然，这是一个广阔的空间。

Could be long slow distance, could be high-intensity interval training.

可能是长距离慢距离训练，也可能是高强度间歇训练。

Anything that gets your heart rate elevated deliberately for 12 minutes or more, is kind of how I'd put it.

任何能让你的心率故意升高 12 分钟或更长时间的事情，都是我的说法。

So, let's be broad with what we're calling training.

因此，让我们广泛讨论一下我们所说的培训。

Could be resistance training, circuit training, whole body, body part split, whatever.

可以是阻力训练、循环训练、全身训练、身体部位分割训练等等。

Let's take all that, and let's define the fast as not having eaten either for four hours during the middle of the day, or for 8 hours to 12 hours, including sleep the night before, right?

让我们把所有这些都考虑在内，让我们将禁食定义为中午四个小时不吃东西，或者八小时到十二小时不吃东西，包括前一天晚上睡觉，对吧？

Because people then say, "Wait, but I'm fasted because I don't eat lunch, and then I tr-" Okay.

因为人们会说，“等等，但我禁食了，因为我不吃午餐，然后我就……”好吧。

It gets really murky and then we could spend 26 hours here and we don't want to do that.

天气变得非常阴暗，然后我们可以在这里度过 26 个小时，但我们不想这样做。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Sure.

艾伦·阿拉贡 当然。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Andrew Huberman So, assuming that one trains fasted, does one burn more stored body fat, in particular, or just more dietary fat, if there's dietary fat circulating and available?

Andrew Huberman 那么，假设一个人禁食训练，如果有膳食脂肪循环并且可用的话，一个人是否会燃烧更多储存的身体脂肪，或者只是燃烧更多的膳食脂肪？

Let's just say lipids.

就说脂质吧。

I think when we hear the word "fat," people think body fat but there's also dietary fat.

我认为当我们听到“脂肪”这个词时，人们会想到身体脂肪，但也有膳食脂肪。

So, could you please discriminate between those two?

那么，你能区分一下这两者吗？

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Okay.

好的。

So, picture this.

那么，想象一下这个。

Picture two people eating the exact same diet, identical diet.

想象一下两个人吃着完全相同的饮食，相同的饮食。

By the end of the day, same macronutrition, same food selection, everything is identical.

到一天结束时，相同的宏观营养、相同的食物选择，一切都是一样的。

Let's say we're running a study, okay?

假设我们正在进行一项研究，好吗？

One of the groups trains in a genuinely post-absorptive fasted state, eight to 10 hours-ish, eating nothing.

其中一组在真正的吸收后禁食状态下进行训练，训练时间为八到十个小时左右，不吃任何东西。

They will burn more fat during the training bout.

他们在训练过程中会燃烧更多的脂肪。

Andrew Huberman Body fat?

安德鲁·休伯曼 身体脂肪？

Alan Aragon Yes.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

They will burn more body fat.

他们会燃烧更多的身体脂肪。

They will burn more intramuscular fat.

他们会燃烧更多的肌内脂肪。

Their net fat oxidation will be higher than the group that has a breakfast.

他们的净脂肪氧化会高于吃早餐的人。

And the group that has the breakfast will essentially be burning their breakfast during the training.

吃早餐的小组基本上会在训练期间烧掉早餐。

So, yes, during the training, there is greater fat burning in the fasted group.

所以，是的，在训练过程中，禁食组的脂肪燃烧量更大。

But once again, we're looking at two groups who are consuming the exact same diet.

但我们再次观察了两组饮食完全相同的人。

So, the group who consumed their breakfast is going to consume less stuff, less food, one less meal in the later part of the day.

因此，吃早餐的人会在当天晚些时候吃更少的东西、更少的食物、更少一顿饭。

So, their fat oxidation is going to be higher in the later part of the day.

因此，他们的脂肪氧化在一天的晚些时候会更高。

And so, it all comes out even by the end of the day.

所以，到了最后，一切都会水落石出。

So that is the kind of the big issue and the big principle with fasted training.

这就是禁食训练的大问题和大原则。

Yes, it does burn more fat during training, but you're looking at a snapshot of time within the course of the day.

是的，它确实在训练期间燃烧更多的脂肪，但您看到的是一天中的时间快照。

You're not looking at the course of the day.

你没有关注当天的进程。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon But you know what?

艾伦·阿拉贡 但你知道吗？

This was a huge idea that persisted throughout the late '80s and early '90s.

这是一个伟大的想法，贯穿了整个 80 年代末和 90 年代初。

And even into the 2000s when Bill Phillips came out with 'Body For Life' and stuff, he was big on the fasted cardio and stuff.

甚至到了 2000 年代，当比尔·菲利普斯 (Bill Phillips) 推出《Body For Life》之类的作品时，他仍然热衷于禁食有氧运动之类的东西。

This kind of lore is really cool, if you know scientists who are able to rope you in and help you investigate this stuff.

如果你认识能够拉拢你并帮助你研究这些东西的科学家，那么这种知识真的很酷。

Alan Aragon So, once again, I got to give Brad Schoenfeld a lot of credit.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon） 所以，我再次对布拉德·舍恩菲尔德（Brad Schoenfeld）给予了很大的信任。

He wanted to test this hypothesis out, and so we took college-age subjects, women, and we compared fasted cardio with fed cardio.

他想验证这个假设，所以我们选取了大学年龄的女性受试者，并将空腹有氧运动与进食有氧运动进行比较。

And the predominant lore at the time was the fat burning zone.

当时的主要知识是脂肪燃烧区。

So, we're talking low, moderate intensity cardio, which they carried out for little less than an hour.

所以，我们谈论的是低强度、中等强度的有氧运动，他们进行了不到一个小时。

And we compared an immediate pre cardio meal, which was standardized.

我们还比较了标准化的立即有氧运动前餐。

It was a meal replacement type of thing.

这是一种代餐食品。

With the same meal consumed post-cardio.

有氧运动后吃同一顿饭。

And then we measured body composition over- People criticized the study for being four weeks, but look-

然后我们测量了身体成分——人们批评这项研究持续了四个星期，但是你看——

Andrew Huberman It's hard to run human studies.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）进行人体研究很困难。

I've done it.

我已经做到了。

I've done a clinical trial in humans.

我已经在人体中进行了一项临床试验。

It's very hard to run long-term studies, especially in humans, especially when it involves nutrition and training.

进行长期研究非常困难，尤其是在人类身上，特别是当它涉及营养和训练时。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Yes.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Alan Aragon Yes.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Andrew Huberman It's brutal.

安德鲁·休伯曼 这太残酷了。

So, hat tip to you for tackling it at all.

所以，向你致敬，感谢你解决了这个问题。

You're not going to catch any heat from me on the four-week thing.

你不会因为这四个星期的事情而对我产生任何不满。

Alan Aragon Good, good.

艾伦·阿拉贡 好，好。

Andrew Huberman But I appreciate that you mentioned the duration of the study because, in thoroughness, which you're characterized for, people should know it.

Andrew Huberman：但是我很欣赏你提到了研究的持续时间，因为从你的特点来看，人们应该知道它的彻底性。

Alan Aragon Yep.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼 是的。

Okay.

好的。

Alan Aragon So, this is one of the only existing studies that looked at this question and controlled hypocaloric conditions.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）所以，这是现有的仅有的研究这个问题并控制低热量条件的研究之一。

I actually put together all the studies by hand for each of the subjects, kind of customizing it to their needs and making sure things were hypocaloric, making sure protein was optimized.

实际上，我为每个受试者手工整理了所有研究，根据他们的需求进行定制，并确保低热量，确保蛋白质得到优化。

Interestingly, there was no resistance training involved with this study.

有趣的是，这项研究没有涉及阻力训练。

They were just doing their cardio.

他们只是在做有氧运动。

Subjects in both groups maintained their lean body mass, but both groups lost a significant amount of body fat.

两组受试者都保持了瘦体重，但两组都失去了大量的身体脂肪。

No difference in body fat reduction between groups by the end of the study, whether they did their cardio fed, or whether they did it fasted.

到研究结束时，无论是进行有氧运动还是禁食，各组之间的体脂减少量没有差异。

And that's because we equated the total nutrition between the groups.

那是因为我们将各组之间的总营养等同起来。

And-

还有——

Andrew Huberman And you said, again, the subjects were college-age women.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）你又说过，研究对象是大学年龄的女性。

Alan Aragon College-age women, yes.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）大学年龄的女性，是的。

Andrew Huberman And what was the cardio?

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman） 那什么是有氧运动？

What was the workout?

锻炼的内容是什么？

And the reason I'm asking is that it's impressive that they all lost body fat, as long as they ate the appropriate amount of calories, didn't matter when they distributed those calories relative to the exercise, and they maintained lean body mass.

我问这个问题的原因是，令人印象深刻的是，他们都减掉了体内脂肪，只要他们摄入适量的卡路里，相对于运动的卡路里分配时间并不重要，并且他们保持了瘦体重。

And if they weren't doing resistance training, I'm impressed that the cardiovascular training was sufficient to allow them to maintain lean body mass.

如果他们不进行阻力训练，我印象深刻的是，心血管训练足以让他们保持瘦体重。

What was the cardiovascular workout?

心血管锻炼是什么？

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon It was low-moderate intensity, what might be called zone two type of cardio, where you can still hold a conversation but, it's not necessarily a waltz.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）：这是低中等强度，可以称为第二区有氧运动，您仍然可以进行对话，但不一定是华尔兹。

And so, the whole idea was to be in the fat burning zone.

因此，整个想法就是处于脂肪燃烧区。

We wanted to exploit the whole fat burning zone concept, to keep the intensity low-moderate, so we can give the fasted cardio condition a chance to show whatever magic it might have.

我们想要利用整个脂肪燃烧区的概念，保持低至中等的强度，这样我们就可以给禁食的有氧运动条件一个机会来展示它可能具有的魔力。

And so, we didn't see that magic by the end of the trial.

因此，在试验结束时我们并没有看到这种魔力。

Alan Aragon The practical takeaway from that is, number one, we didn't see a bunch of lean mass loss in the fasted cardio group, because there's this lore saying that, "Hey, you better not train fasted no matter what.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）的实际收获是，第一，我们在禁食有氧运动组中没有看到大量瘦肉质量损失，因为有这样的传说说：“嘿，无论如何，你最好不要禁食训练。

You better not do cardio fasted because you're going to lose muscle." Well, they didn't lose any lean body mass.

你最好不要空腹做有氧运动，因为你会失去肌肉。”嗯，他们并没有失去任何瘦体重。

And when you form practical takeaways from the findings, we can say that if you prefer to train fasted, and you just feel better, doing your cardio in a fasted state, great.

当您从研究结果中得出实际结论时，我们可以说，如果您喜欢禁食训练，并且您感觉更好，那么在禁食状态下进行有氧运动，那就太好了。

Do it fasted.

禁食时进行。

If you can't stand doing fasted cardio and you'd rather have a breakfast beforehand, then go ahead and do that.

如果您无法忍受空腹有氧运动，并且希望提前吃早餐，那就继续吧。

Just know that that's not going to necessarily hinder your fat loss efforts, as long as you're net hypocaloric by the end of the day, or the end of the week.

只要知道，只要您在一天结束或一周结束时达到净低热量，这不一定会阻碍您的减脂努力。

Alan Aragon Those recommendations can change with the type of cardio you do, especially higher intensity stuff, or certainly competitive types of sports that involve endurance performance elements and stuff.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）这些建议可能会随着您所做的有氧运动的类型而变化，尤其是高强度的运动，或者当然是涉及耐力表现元素等的竞技运动类型。

But that's the takeaway from our study, that fasted versus fed cardio doesn't matter.

但这是我们研究的结论，空腹与进食有氧运动并不重要。

Do it based on personal preference.

根据个人喜好来做。

Andrew Huberman I love it.

安德鲁·休伯曼，我喜欢它。

After so many years of trends coming through, train fasted, don't train fasted, it seems like as with protein, what I'm learning from you is that there's a lot more flexibility in time than we might have once thought.

经过这么多年的趋势，空腹训练，不要空腹训练，就像蛋白质一样，我从你那里学到的是，时间上的灵活性比我们曾经想象的要大得多。

But that the absolute calories, of course, matter.

但绝对卡路里当然很重要。

Prioritizing protein matters.

优先考虑蛋白质问题。

And you still have to train.

而且你仍然需要训练。

You got to do something.

你必须做点什么。

Alan Aragon And can I add this?

艾伦·阿拉贡 我可以添加这个吗？

Because I know you'll appreciate this.

因为我知道你会感激这一点。

I'm not going to cherry-pick our study and say that this is the end-all result that is gospel.

我不会挑选我们的研究并说这是福音的最终结果。

So, there's actually a later meta-analysis a few years later by, I think it's Hagstrom and Hackett, who looked at fasted versus fed training, and they overall found no significant differences or significant advantages in terms of body comp improvement, fat loss in the fasted versus the fed conditions, as long as total nutrition is equated between the groups.

因此，实际上几年后，我认为是 Hagstrom 和 Hackett 进行了一项荟萃分析，他们研究了禁食与进食训练，他们总体上发现，只要各组之间的总营养相等，在禁食与进食条件下的身体成分改善、脂肪减少方面就没有显着差异或显着优势。

Andrew Huberman Love it.

安德鲁·休伯曼喜欢它。

This is music to my ears, and I'm sure it's going to be music to everybody's ears because it just says there's flexibility.

这对我来说是美妙的音乐，我相信这对每个人来说都是美妙的音乐，因为它只是表明了灵活性。

And life is complicated, so more flexibility is good.

生活很复杂，所以更多的灵活性是好的。

Alan Aragon But it's disappointing though, too.

艾伦·阿拉贡 但这也令人失望。

If you're looking for magic, if you're looking for that special little thing you can do that ugh.

如果你正在寻找魔法，如果你正在寻找那个特别的小东西，你就可以做到哦。

Andrew Huberman Well, maybe the magic is in the training consistently, the nutrition, including protein, and the knowledge that there's flexibility.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）嗯，也许神奇之处在于持续的训练、包括蛋白质在内的营养，以及对灵活性的了解。

I have this saying in my mind lately that the things that make 90% of the difference, so sleep, exercise, nutrition, light, stress management, relationships, et cetera, in our health, are the things we have to do 90% of the days of our lives.

最近我脑子里有这样一句话，对我们的健康来说，90%的影响是在睡眠、锻炼、营养、光线、压力管理、人际关系等等方面，这些事情是我们一生中90%的日子必须做的事情。

And that's why there can continue to be so much discussion around them.

这就是为什么围绕它们的讨论会继续如此多。

This is why it isn't just like, "Here are the basics.

这就是为什么它不仅仅是“这是基础知识。

Okay, you're done." It's because the things that we have to do every day, we often have to be reminded to do every day.

好吧，你已经完成了。”这是因为我们每天要做的事情，我们经常需要每天被提醒去做。

Andrew Huberman But along those lines, why is it, in your opinion, that protein is so critical?

Andrew Huberman 但沿着这些思路，在您看来，为什么蛋白质如此重要？

That protein be treated as the cornerstone of good nutrition, especially if one is attempting to consume calories to maintain, or perhaps even lose a little bit of body fat, maybe simultaneously maintaining or gaining muscle.

这种蛋白质被视为良好营养的基石，特别是当一个人试图消耗卡路里来维持或什至减掉一点身体脂肪，同时维持或增加肌肉时。

But let's set aside muscle gain for the moment, and let's just say maintain muscle, but many people want to lose a few percentages of body fat.

但我们暂时先把增肌放在一边，我们就说维持肌肉吧，但很多人都想减掉一些百分比的身体脂肪。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman Why is it that protein is so critical to that process?

Andrew Huberman 为什么蛋白质对于这个过程如此重要？

Why is it that indeed calories in versus calories out reigns true, law of thermodynamics, but that protein is so crucial?

为什么热量摄入与热量消耗确实是热力学定律，但蛋白质却如此重要？

Alan Aragon It's mainly just a couple of things to keep in mind, and potentially a third little thing.

Alan Aragon：主要有几件事需要记住，可能还有第三件小事。

So, the big thing about protein and body comp is, number one, protein directly supports lean body mass.

因此，蛋白质和身体成分的最重要的一点是，第一，蛋白质直接支持去脂体重。

It directly supports all the lean tissues in the body, skeletal muscle especially.

它直接支持体内所有的瘦肉组织，尤其是骨骼肌。

And skeletal muscle is basically our metabolic engine that we can control.

骨骼肌基本上是我们可以控制的代谢引擎。

It manages our body's fuel use, and so it's super critical to support skeletal muscle.

它管理我们身体的燃料使用，因此支持骨骼肌非常重要。

Protein does that directly.

蛋白质可以直接做到这一点。

And protein is more satiating than carbohydrate and fat, and so it's the most satiating macronutrient.

蛋白质比碳水化合物和脂肪更能产生饱腹感，因此它是最有饱腹感的常量营养素。

The third little detail, well, it's got the highest cost of metabolism, or cost of processing within the body.

第三个小细节，嗯，它的新陈代谢成本或体内处理成本最高。

So, it's the most energetically or calorically expensive macronutrient to process within the body.

因此，它是体内处理能量或热量最昂贵的常量营养素。

So, it has a higher so-called thermic effect.

因此，它具有较高的所谓热效应。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Those are basically the three main reasons why protein is so critical to things like body comp improvement, high-quality weight loss, fat loss.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）基本上，这就是蛋白质对于改善身体素质、高质量减肥、减脂等至关重要的三个主要原因。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman Those are great reasons.

安德鲁·休伯曼 这些都是很好的理由。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman And what about the hierarchy of protein quality?

Andrew Huberman 那么蛋白质质量的等级又如何呢？

I think of protein quality in terms of quality of protein, meaning the type and ratios of amino acids, the availability of those amino acids relative to the amount of calories one has to ingest to get them.

我认为蛋白质质量是指蛋白质的质量，即氨基酸的类型和比例，这些氨基酸的可用性相对于人们必须摄入的卡路里量。

Because frankly, I've grown tired and slightly irritated at the, "Oh, these plant-based foods have a ton of quality protein in them." And I go, "Really?

因为坦率地说，我已经厌倦了，并且对“哦，这些植物性食物含有大量优质蛋白质”感到有点恼火。我说：“真的吗？

You have to consume 2,000 calories of that plant or grain in order to get the equivalent amino acid profile from a four-ounce piece of steak, for instance." And this is not an argument that animal proteins are better ethically.

例如，你必须消耗 2,000 卡路里的植物或谷物才能从 4 盎司的牛排中获得同等的氨基酸成分。”这并不是说动物蛋白在道德上更好。

I'm just saying at a quality, as a function of calories ingested, I feel like animal proteins are superior.

我只是说，从质量上看，作为摄入卡路里的函数，我觉得动物蛋白更优越。

But tell me what the data says.

但请告诉我数据怎么说。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Sure, sure.

艾伦·阿拉贡 当然，当然。

Man, this is a lightning rod of a topic here, this-

伙计，这是这里的一个话题的避雷针，这个-

Andrew Huberman We have a strong audience.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）我们有很多观众。

They can handle it.

他们可以处理它。

Alan Aragon They can handle it?

艾伦·阿拉贡 他们能应付得来吗？

All right, guys, buckle up.

好吧，伙计们，系好安全带。

Brace yourselves, please.

请做好准备。

Andrew Huberman They can handle it.

安德鲁·胡伯曼 他们能处理好。

Andrew Huberman Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼 是的。

Alan Aragon So, gram for gram, as a group, animal proteins are higher quality.

艾伦·阿拉贡 (Alan Aragon) 所以，从一克到一克，作为一个整体，动物蛋白的质量更高。

They're more anabolic.

他们的合成代谢更强。

They have a higher proportion of essential amino acids.

它们的必需氨基酸比例较高。

They have a higher amount and proportion of the most anabolic-driving amino acids, the branched-chain amino acids, leucine specifically.

它们具有较高数量和比例的最具合成代谢驱动性的氨基酸，即支链氨基酸，特别是亮氨酸。

And, in the majority of the literature, when you compare animal versus plant proteins head-to-head, you see greater muscle protein synthesis.

而且，在大多数文献中，当你将动物蛋白与植物蛋白进行正面比较时，你会发现肌肉蛋白的合成更多。

Now, with muscle protein synthesis being sort of the short-term indicator of what might indicate a growth trajectory over time, we have to see if we can corroborate that with these longitudinal trials.

现在，由于肌肉蛋白质合成是可能表明一段时间内生长轨迹的短期指标，我们必须看看是否可以通过这些纵向试验来证实这一点。

Where you drag the experiment out for weeks and months to see if there's any superiority with the animal versus the plant protein, for kind of where the rubber meets the road, which is increasing muscle mass and/or strength.

你将实验拖了数周和数月，看看动物蛋白与植物蛋白相比是否有任何优势，在橡胶与道路的接触处，这会增加肌肉质量和/或力量。

Alan Aragon So, there have been a lot of studies comparing animal versus plant proteins.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）因此，已经有很多研究比较动物蛋白和植物蛋白。

Okay, so the animal proteins do have the edge in that department, and that's been reported in a couple meta-analyses now.

好吧，动物蛋白确实在这方面具有优势，现在的一些荟萃分析已经报道了这一点。

One of them compared whey and soy, and didn't find a staggering difference between the two, anabolically.

其中一位比较了乳清和大豆，并没有发现两者在合成代谢方面存在惊人的差异。

So, we can call soy actually a high-quality protein.

所以，我们可以称大豆实际上是一种优质蛋白质。

But when you look at the individual studies, whey still has an edge, because meta-analyses just take the data and cram it all together into a single conclusion.

但当你看个别研究时，乳清仍然具有优势，因为荟萃分析只是获取数据并将其全部整合到一个结论中。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

It's also important to look at the individual studies too.

查看个别研究也很重要。

So, here’s where the story gets interesting.

所以，这就是故事变得有趣的地方。

There are 2 studies now, that compared a- And this is what's been missing from the literature.

现在有两项研究比较了-而这正是文献中所缺失的。

Usually, we take two groups of omnivores, and we supplement them with, let's say, whey protein, and then we supplement the other group with some sort of a plant protein.

通常，我们选择两组杂食动物，然后给他们补充乳清蛋白，然后给另一组补充某种植物蛋白。

Andrew Huberman Like pea protein or something.

安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）喜欢豌豆蛋白什么的。

Alan Aragon Yeah, pea protein, and interesting thing about pea protein, it actually outperformed whey in one study.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）是的，豌豆蛋白，关于豌豆蛋白的有趣之处在于，在一项研究中它实际上优于乳清。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon So in this 2015 study where pea protein supplementation outperformed whey, for increasing muscle thickness.

Alan Aragon So 在 2015 年的这项研究中发现，在增加肌肉厚度方面，豌豆蛋白补充剂的效果优于乳清。

I was really sad to see that because I was weighing it up, and I was like, "Oh, God, yeah.

看到这一点我真的很难过，因为我正在权衡它，我想，“哦，上帝，是的。

What are we doing here?"

我们在这里做什么？”

Andrew Huberman Oh, it is what it is.

安德鲁·休伯曼 哦，就是这样。

Alan Aragon That study has not been replicated.

艾伦·阿拉贡 (Alan Aragon) 这项研究尚未被重复。

But, okay, so the interesting part.

但是，好吧，这是有趣的部分。

We finally have studies where we're looking at completely vegan regimen.

我们终于进行了研究，研究完全素食疗法。

A group who's totally vegan, no animal products at all in the diet, versus an omnivore group.

完全素食的群体，饮食中完全不含动物产品，与杂食群体相对。

And put them on a resistance training regimen, 12 weeks.

让他们接受为期 12 周的阻力训练。

This was done by Lorraine and colleagues.

这是洛林和同事完成的。

This was a few years back.

这是几年前的事了。

And so they optimized protein, or at least made it at the bottom of optimal, at 1.6 grams per kilogram of body weight per day, in both groups, okay?

因此，他们优化了蛋白质，或者至少使其处于最佳水平的底部，两组的蛋白质摄入量均为每天每公斤体重 1.6 克，好吗？

But the unique thing about this study, it was the first time ever we're comparing vegans with omnivores.

但这项研究的独特之处在于，这是我们第一次将素食主义者与杂食动物进行比较。

So, there were no significant differences between groups in muscle size and strength gains by the end of the 12 weeks, where they were put on a progressive resistance training program.

因此，在进行渐进式阻力训练计划的 12 周结束时，各组之间的肌肉大小和力量增益没有显着差异。

Andrew Huberman It was isocaloric?

安德鲁·休伯曼 这是等热量的吗？

So both groups-

所以两组——

Alan Aragon Isocaloric.

艾伦·阿拉贡等热量。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman Meaning, for those that don't know what that means, is total number of calories ingested per day, same in the vegan versus omnivore group.

安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman） 对于那些不知道这意味着什么的人来说，它的意思是每天摄入的卡路里总数，纯素食组与杂食组的情况相同。

Alan Aragon Yes, that's right, isocaloric.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）是的，没错，等热量。

Iso macronutritional, isoproteic.

等常量营养，等蛋白。

Everything is equated between the groups, macronutrition-wise.

从宏观营养角度来看，各群体之间的一切都是平等的。

No significant differences in the size and strength gains.

尺寸和力量增益没有显着差异。

Oh, and by the way, the vegan group, their protein intake was boosted up to 1.6 grams per kilo or 0.7 grams per pound.

哦，顺便说一下，纯素食组的蛋白质摄入量增加到每公斤 1.6 克或每磅 0.7 克。

It was boosted up by soy protein supplementation.

补充大豆蛋白可以提高这一水平。

So apparently, we're beginning to see that at a dose, a total daily protein at 1.6 grams per kilogram of body weight, the totally vegan group was able to hang in there against the omnivore group for muscle size and strength gains, at least within the conditions of the study, and at least for those 12 weeks, and at least for the subjects that were used, who weren't necessarily these high-level athletes or whatever.

显然，我们开始看到，在每日总蛋白质摄入量为每公斤体重 1.6 克的情况下，完全素食组在肌肉大小和力量增长方面能够与杂食组相比，至少在研究条件下，至少在这 12 周内，至少对于所使用的受试者来说，他们不一定是这些高水平运动员或其他什么人。

Andrew Huberman So, if you construct it properly, you can follow a vegan diet, as long as you get 0.7 grams per pound of body weight.

Andrew Huberman 所以，如果你构造得当，你就可以遵循纯素饮食，只要每磅体重摄入 0.7 克即可。

Alan Aragon Grams per pound

艾伦阿拉贡 克每磅

Alan Aragon And the weird thing, man, is the vegan diet overall had significantly less essential amino acid content.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon） 奇怪的是，伙计，纯素饮食总体上的必需氨基酸含量明显较少。

Andrew Huberman Hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯。

Alan Aragon And significantly less branch chain amino acid content.

Alan Aragon 且支链氨基酸含量明显较少。

But apparently, the resistance training stimulus is robust enough to make protein effects almost secondary.

但显然，阻力训练的刺激足以使蛋白质的影响几乎成为次要的。

Andrew Huberman Interesting.

安德鲁·休伯曼 有趣。

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Andrew Huberman Getting right back to exercise probably being the major lever in everything.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman） 立即恢复锻炼可能是一切的主要杠杆。

Oh, well, sleep I would argue is the major lever over time.

哦，好吧，我认为睡眠是随着时间的推移的主要杠杆。

Alan Aragon I would agree, man.

艾伦·阿拉贡 我同意，伙计。

Andrew Huberman Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼 是的。

Yeah.

是的。

But I will say this, because then people think if they get one bad night's sleep to not train.

但我会这么说，因为人们会认为如果他们睡了一晚不好就不会训练。

I don't know if you're familiar with these recent studies showing that you can offset the inflammation that arrives from getting five or fewer hours of sleep the previous night.

我不知道你是否熟悉最近的这些研究，这些研究表明你可以抵消因前一天晚上睡眠五个或更少小时而产生的炎症。

Alan Aragon With training?

艾伦·阿拉贡 有训练吗？

Andrew Huberman With exercise.

安德鲁·休伯曼 锻炼身体。

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman You just don't want to get into a habit of it.

Andrew Huberman：你只是不想养成这种习惯。

But if you're on the-

但如果你在-

Alan Aragon Easier said than done.

艾伦·阿拉贡 说起来容易做起来难。

Andrew Huberman I know.

安德鲁·休伯曼我知道。

If you're on the fence about whether or not to train because you're sleep-deprived, train, but don't do that more than one to two days per week ideally.

如果你因为睡眠不足而犹豫是否要训练，那就训练吧，但每周最好不要超过一到两天。

And even better would be to get great sleep and train.

更好的是获得良好的睡眠和训练。

But-

但是——

Alan Aragon I know you're gearing up to hit the next thing.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）我知道你正准备迎接下一个目标。

I want to mention that this study I just talked about was not a one-off.

我想说的是，我刚才谈到的这项研究并不是一次性的。

A couple years later, Montien and colleagues did the same thing, but they used mycoprotein for the vegan group.

几年后，蒙蒂恩和同事做了同样的事情，但他们在纯素食组中使用了真菌蛋白。

Andrew Huberman Mycoprotein?

安德鲁·休伯曼 菌蛋白？

Alan Aragon It's a fungus-based protein.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）这是一种基于真菌的蛋白质。

Alan Aragon So, you've seen that.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）所以，你已经看到了。

I think it's on- Is it on Netflix or HBO, 'The Last of Us', where that fungus makes people anabolic?

我想是在 Netflix 或 HBO 的《最后生还者》中，真菌使人合成代谢吗？

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman I haven't seen that.

安德鲁·休伯曼 我还没有看到。

That's what this is?

这就是这个啊？

It's based on this?

是基于这个吗？

Alan Aragon I'm doing a joke about a fictional show.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）我正在讲一个关于虚构节目的笑话。

Some of the audience will chuckle or just think I just busted the most terrible dad joke ever.

有些观众会咯咯地笑，或者只是认为我刚刚打破了有史以来最可怕的爸爸笑话。

But it's a fungus-based protein.

但它是一种基于真菌的蛋白质。

Commercially, it's called Quorn, so Q-U-O-R-N.

在商业上，它被称为 Quorn，即 Q-U-O-R-N。

Andrew Huberman Okay.

安德鲁·休伯曼 好的。

Alan Aragon It's one of these weird types of products that is unfortunately expensive.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）这是一种奇怪的产品，不幸的是价格昂贵。

Andrew Huberman Hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯。

Alan Aragon And so, the plant-based, or the animal-free group, their protein intake was boosted with this mycoprotein.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）因此，无论是植物性组还是非动物性组，他们的蛋白质摄入量都因这种真菌蛋白而增加。

And then they were compared against omnivores with mixed protein sources.

然后将它们与混合蛋白质来源的杂食动物进行比较。

And by the end of the study, I believe it was a 12-week study, no significant differences in increases in muscle size and strength.

在研究结束时，我相信这是一项为期 12 周的研究，肌肉大小和力量的增加没有显着差异。

And progressive resistance training regimen.

以及渐进式阻力训练方案。

And once again, not necessarily highly trained people, but we basically saw the same thing.

再说一遍，不一定是训练有素的人，但我们基本上看到了同样的事情。

As long as total daily protein is where it needs to be, then apparently, the animal-free group can hang with the omnivores at least for the conditions of that study.

只要每日总蛋白质达到需要的水平，那么显然，至少在该研究的条件下，无动物组可以与杂食动物保持一致。

So, I always look at these things skeptically.

所以，我总是以怀疑的态度看待这些事情。

Alan Aragon But the mycoprotein also outperformed milk protein for muscle protein synthesis in this acute study that preceded this longitudinal study.

但在这项纵向研究之前的这项急性研究中，真菌蛋白在肌肉蛋白合成方面也优于牛奶蛋白。

And so there's some weird stuff that we can look at aside from animal protein that could be just as anabolic.

因此，除了动物蛋白之外，我们还可以研究一些可能具有合成代谢作用的奇怪物质。

So yeah, that's the story with animal versus plant and/or fungus-based protein.

是的，这就是动物与植物和/或真菌蛋白的故事。

So yeah, I just had to throw in the Montien study.

所以，是的，我只需要加入蒙天研究即可。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman No, it's very interesting.

安德鲁·休伯曼：不，这很有趣。

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Andrew Huberman I think when people hear soy, there has been this kind of assault on soy for years.

安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）我认为，当人们听到大豆时，多年来一直存在对大豆的这种攻击。

And I've avoided it not for any specific reason, but because I prefer other sources of calories.

我避免食用它并不是出于任何特定原因，而是因为我更喜欢其他卡路里来源。

I like meat and berries and eggs, and this kind of thing.

我喜欢肉、浆果和鸡蛋，以及这类东西。

But it's interesting that some of these engineered proteins, and soy protein, and pea protein, when you really put them to the test under the right conditions, gram for gram, they seem to perform just as well as the animal proteins.

但有趣的是，其中一些工程蛋白质，大豆蛋白和豌豆蛋白，当你真正在正确的条件下对它们进行一克一克的测试时，它们的性能似乎与动物蛋白一样好。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman You did mention, however, that satiety is a key factor.

然而，安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）您确实提到，饱腹感是一个关键因素。

So, I'd be curious in this study, I don't know if they measured this, whether the people in the vegan group felt that they were happy with what they were eating, as compared to the animal protein group.

所以，我在这项研究中很好奇，我不知道他们是否对此进行了测量，与动物蛋白组相比，纯素食组的人是否对自己所吃的东西感到满意。

At the end of the day, are they still craving more food?

一天结束时，他们是否仍然渴望更多食物？

Do they feel like they desperately want a rib eye steak?

他们是否觉得自己非常想要一份肋眼牛排？

In order to follow a fairly strict diet of any kind, but in particular plant-based, one has to have a good reason.

为了遵循任何一种相当严格的饮食习惯，尤其是植物性饮食，必须有一个充分的理由。

Alan Aragon Sure.

艾伦·阿拉贡 当然。

Andrew Huberman I think that otherwise, you just kind of fall into the availability issue.

Andrew Huberman 我认为否则的话，你就会陷入可用性问题。

It's a lot easier to eat an omnivore diet.

吃杂食饮食要容易得多。

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Yeah.

是的。

That wasn't measured in either of the studies.

这两项研究都没有测量这一点。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯

Alan Aragon And I always look at these things skeptically when you use essentially untrained subjects.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon） 当你使用基本上未经训练的受试者时，我总是以怀疑的态度看待这些事情。

Because untrained subjects are always going to kind of incur this newbie gains effect for the training regimen, where the gains that you get from the resistance training alone are going to just mask any potential advantage of either protein type.

因为未经训练的受试者总是会在训练方案中产生这种新手增益效应，而仅从阻力训练中获得的增益只会掩盖任何一种蛋白质类型的任何潜在优势。

Stu Phillips will argue with me on that all day long.

斯图·菲利普斯会整天和我争论这个问题。

We did a two-day-long Twitter argument about that, and-

我们为此在 Twitter 上进行了为期两天的争论，然后——

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman You spent two days on an argument on X?

Andrew Huberman 你花了两天时间就 X 问题进行争论？

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Stu is a fricking legend, man.

斯图真是个传奇人物，伙计。

He is a legend in the protein research area, but he will argue with two to three days on Twitter.

他是蛋白质研究领域的传奇人物，但他会在推特上争论两到三天。

And so, we always end up at the same spot where, look, we need more research to see whether- And this wasn't about plant versus animal proteins, this was about just total daily protein intake, period.

因此，我们总是会遇到同样的情况，看，我们需要更多的研究来看看是否-这不是关于植物与动物蛋白质的问题，这只是关于每日蛋白质摄入总量的问题。

We just need more research on highly resistance-trained subjects to see whether in fact, a completely plant-based protein regimen that's optimized calorically and total daily protein amount-wise, can really run with the animal-based stuff, like the high-quality animal-based proteins.

我们只需要对高度抵抗训练的受试者进行更多研究，看看事实上，一种完全基于植物的蛋白质疗法，在热量和每日总蛋白质含量方面进行了优化，是否真的可以与基于动物的东西一起运行，比如高质量的动物性蛋白质。

Alan Aragon And so, it almost depends on where you want to place your bets and where you want to take your risks.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）因此，这几乎取决于您想在哪里下注以及您想在哪里承担风险。

So, if gold is on the line, if first place at a professional or national level is on the line, yeah, I don't know if I would.

所以，如果金牌有危险，如果职业或国家级别的第一名有危险，是的，我不知道我是否愿意。

But everybody's ideology is what it is, and some people are just kind of governed by what they want to stick to.

但每个人的意识形态都是如此，有些人只是受到他们想要坚持的东西的控制。

So, it really depends on the population and what the goal is.

因此，这实际上取决于人口和目标是什么。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.

Andrew Huberman 我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。

AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens.

AG1 是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮料，还包含益生元和适应原。

As somebody who's been involved in research science for almost three decades, and in health and fitness for equally as long, I'm constantly looking for the best tools to improve my mental health, physical health, and performance.

作为一个从事科学研究近三十年的人，并且在健康和健身领域也有同样长的时间，我一直在寻找最好的工具来改善我的心理健康、身体健康和表现。

I discovered AG1 back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since.

我早在 2012 年就发现了 AG1，那时我还没有播客，从那时起我就每天都在服用它。

I find it improves all aspects of my health, my energy, my focus, and I simply feel much better when I take it.

我发现它改善了我的健康、精力、注意力的各个方面，而且服用它后我感觉好多了。

AG1 uses the highest quality ingredients in the right combinations, and they're constantly improving their formulas, without increasing the cost.

AG1 使用最优质的成分进行正确的组合，并且在不增加成本的情况下不断改进其配方。

In fact, AG1 just launched their latest formula upgrade.

事实上，AG1刚刚推出了他们最新的配方升级。

This next gen formula is based on exciting new research on the effects of probiotics on the gut microbiome, and it now includes several clinically studied probiotic strains shown to support both digestive health, and immune system health, as well as to improve bowel regularity, and to reduce bloating.

这种下一代配方基于关于益生菌对肠道微生物组影响的令人兴奋的新研究，它现在包含几种经过临床研究的益生菌菌株，这些益生菌菌株显示出支持消化健康和免疫系统健康，以及改善肠道规律性和减少腹胀。

Andrew Huberman Whenever I'm asked if I could take just one supplement, what that supplement would be, I always say, "AG1." If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to DrinkAG1.com/Huberman.

Andrew Huberman 每当有人问我是否可以只服用一种补充剂时，我总是说“AG1”。如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 DrinkAG1.com/Huberman。

For a limited time, AG1 is giving away a free one-month supply of omega-3 fish oil, along with a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2.

AG1 限时免费赠送一个月的 omega-3 鱼油，以及一瓶维生素 D3 加 K2。

As I've highlighted before on this podcast, omega-3 fish oil and vitamin D3 K2 have been shown to help with everything from mood and brain health, to heart health, to healthy hormone status, and much more.

正如我之前在此播客中强调的那样，omega-3 鱼油和维生素 D3 K2 已被证明对改善情绪和大脑健康、心脏健康、健康激素状态等各个方面都有帮助。

Again, that's DrinkAG1.com/Huberman to get a free one-month supply of omega-3 fish oil, plus a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2 with your subscription.

再次强调，您可以在 DrinkAG1.com/Huberman 上订阅，免费获得一个月的 omega-3 鱼油，以及一瓶维生素 D3 和 K2。

Andrew Huberman Today's episode is also brought to us by David.

安德鲁·休伯曼 今天的节目也是由大卫为我们带来的。

David makes a protein bar unlike any other.

大卫制作的蛋白质棒与众不同。

It has 28 grams of protein, only 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar.

它含有 28 克蛋白质，仅 150 卡路里，零克糖。

That's right, 28 grams of protein and 75% of its calories come from protein.

没错，28克蛋白质，其75%的热量都来自于蛋白质。

This is 50% higher than the next closest protein bar.

这比第二接近的蛋白质棒高出 50%。

David Protein Bars also taste amazing.

大卫蛋白棒的味道也很棒。

Even the texture is amazing.

就连质感也令人惊叹。

My favorite bar is the chocolate chip cookie dough, but then again, I also like the new chocolate peanut butter flavor, and the chocolate brownie flavor.

我最喜欢的巧克力棒是巧克力饼干面团，但话又说回来，我也喜欢新的巧克力花生酱口味和巧克力布朗尼口味。

Basically, I like all the flavors a lot.

基本上，所有的口味我都很喜欢。

They're all incredibly delicious.

它们都非常美味。

In fact, the toughest challenge is knowing which ones to eat on which days and how many times per day.

事实上，最艰巨的挑战是知道哪一天吃哪些食物以及每天吃多少次。

I limit myself to two per day, but I absolutely love them.

我限制自己每天只能吃两个，但我绝对喜欢它们。

Andrew Huberman With David, I'm able to get 28 grams of protein in the calories of a snack, which makes it easy to hit my protein goals of one gram of protein per pound of body weight per day, and it allows me to do so without ingesting too many calories.

Andrew Huberman 和 David 一起，我可以在一份零食的卡路里中获取 28 克蛋白质，这让我很容易实现每天每磅体重 1 克蛋白质的蛋白质目标，而且我可以在不摄入太多卡路里的情况下实现这一目标。

I'll eat a David Protein Bar most afternoons as a snack, and I always keep one with me when I'm out of the house or traveling.

大多数下午我都会吃大卫蛋白棒作为零食，当我出门或旅行时，我总是随身携带一根。

They're incredibly delicious, and given that they have 28 grams of protein, they're really satisfying for having just 150 calories.

它们非常美味，而且含有 28 克蛋白质，仅含 150 卡路里热量就已经很令人满意了。

If you'd like to try David, you can go to DavidProtein.com/Huberman.

如果您想尝试 David，可以访问 DavidProtein.com/Huberman。

Again, that's DavidProtein.com/Huberman.

再说一遍，这是 DavidProtein.com/Huberman。

Andrew Huberman I'd like to talk a little bit about body recomposition.

Andrew Huberman 我想谈谈身体重组。

Simple question to start off.

简单的问题开始。

Is it possible to "Gain muscle while at the same time losing fat?"

是否有可能“增肌的同时减脂”？

Alan Aragon Yes.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Andrew Huberman Great.

安德鲁·休伯曼 太棒了。

That will be reassuring to people.

这样人们才会放心。

Alan Aragon Yes.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Andrew Huberman Does it require a caloric deficit?

Andrew Huberman 它需要热量赤字吗？

Alan Aragon This is the weird part.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon） 这是奇怪的部分。

No. No, and just super interesting, man.

不，不，而且非常有趣，伙计。

My friend and colleague, Chris Barakat, he collected all the studies that witnessed this recomposition phenomenon with a recomposition, we call it recomp, a simultaneous gain in lean mass and loss in fat mass.

我的朋友兼同事克里斯·巴拉卡特（Chris Barakat）收集了所有见证这种重组现象的研究，我们称之为重组，即瘦体重的同时增加和脂肪量的减少。

So, he collected all the studies.

于是，他收集了所有的研究成果。

He collected 10 studies, and this review was put out 5 years ago.

他收集了 10 项研究，这篇综述是 5 年前发表的。

So, you can imagine there's probably a few more studies that have shown recomp now.

所以，你可以想象现在可能还有更多的研究表明了重组。

So, we can say about at least a dozen studies have shown this phenomenon, which we didn't necessarily think was possible 10 years ago.

因此，我们可以说至少有十几项研究已经证明了这种现象，而 10 年前我们认为这种现象是不可能的。

We thought, "Okay, you need a caloric surplus to gain muscle," and "Oh, you need a caloric deficit to lose fat." But what happened in these studies is the recomposition phenomenon, I think 7 out of the 10 studies was a lean mass gain dominant recomposition.

我们想，“好吧，你需要热量盈余才能增加肌肉”，而“哦，你需要热量赤字才能减掉脂肪”。但这些研究中发生的是重组现象，我认为 10 项研究中有 7 项是瘦体重增加占主导地位的重组。

Alan Aragon So, in other words, more lean mass was gained than fat was lost.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon） 所以，换句话说，增加的瘦体重比减少的脂肪多。

So, there were net gains in body mass by the end of these trials, which would at least very strongly imply that fat was lost in a caloric surplus.

因此，在这些试验结束时，体重出现了净增加，这至少强烈表明脂肪在热量盈余中减少了。

Andrew Huberman If you were going to suggest to somebody the best way to approach this.

安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）如果你要向某人建议解决这个问题的最佳方法。

Let's say somebody, loosely speaking, this is not a competitive athlete.

假设某人，宽泛地说，他不是一名竞技运动员。

This could be man or a woman, assuming that the same advice would pertain to both.

这可能是男人或女人，假设同样的建议适用于两者。

Is willing to do resistance training three to four times per week.

愿意每周进行三到四次阻力训练。

Let's say three times per week.

假设每周三次。

Do some cardio three times per week, for about an hour each session for those.

每周做三次有氧运动，每次大约一个小时。

And they are willing to eat maintenance calories or slightly over, and their goal is to gain some muscle and lose some fat.

而且他们愿意吃维持热量或稍微过量，他们的目标是增加一些肌肉并减掉一些脂肪。

Where would you set the calories relative to their needs?

您会根据他们的需求将卡路里设置在哪里？

Would it be an extra two to 500 calories?

会额外增加2到500卡路里热量吗？

I realize that's hard to say because we should talk in percentages.

我意识到这很难说，因为我们应该用百分比来讨论。

But let's just keep it broad for sake of a broad audience.

但为了更广泛的受众，我们还是要保持广泛的范围。

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Alan Aragon Sure.

艾伦·阿拉贡 当然。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Sure.

艾伦·阿拉贡 当然。

Alan Aragon Sure, sure.

艾伦·阿拉贡 当然，当然。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman How much more than maintenance should somebody ingest?

安德鲁·休伯曼 (Andrew Huberman) 人们应该摄入比维持物质更多的东西吗？

And let's assume that when they go in the gym, they know what they're doing.

让我们假设当他们去健身房时，他们知道自己在做什么。

They warm up for 5, 10 minutes, and then they train hard.

他们热身5、10分钟，然后开始刻苦训练。

They take the sets close to failure.

他们的比赛几近失败。

They're doing three to six sets per body part.

他们每个身体部位都会做三到六组。

They're training with meaningful effort.

他们正在以有意义的努力进行训练。

And when they do their cardio, they're somewhere between zone two, and maybe they throw in a max heart rate workout once a week.

当他们做有氧运动时，他们处于第二区之间，也许他们每周进行一次最大心率锻炼。

They do some sprints in the middle of their zone two and go back to...

他们在第二区中间进行一些冲刺，然后返回……

This, I think, is pretty typical of what a lot of people are willing to do or are currently doing.

我认为，这是很多人愿意做或目前正在做的事情的典型例子。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon I would say, sort of the simple and direct answer is you try to keep the caloric surplus pretty judicious.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon） 我想说，简单而直接的答案是你尽量保持热量盈余相当明智。

So, 10% ish above maintenance conditions, which could be for somewhere between 200, possibly 300 calories above what you see as maintenance.

因此，比维护条件高 10% 左右，这可能比您认为的维护条件高 200 到 300 卡路里之间。

And the common thread amongst these recomposition studies was that protein was very high.

这些重组研究的共同点是蛋白质含量非常高。

Protein was somewhere between a gram to a gram and a half per pound of body weight.

每磅体重的蛋白质含量在一克到一克半之间。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman Interesting.

安德鲁·休伯曼 有趣。

So now we've upped the protein intake.

所以现在我们增加了蛋白质的摄入量。

Alan Aragon Yes.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Andrew Huberman Could we even say that the caloric, this 10% above maintenance, should come from quality protein?

Andrew Huberman 我们是否可以说，高于维持量 10% 的热量应该来自优质蛋白质？

Alan Aragon Exactly.

艾伦·阿拉贡 没错。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

And there's a series of studies done by Joey Antonio and colleagues, where they fed the subjects four to 800 calories above and beyond their habitual intakes, just in protein.

Joey Antonio 及其同事进行了一系列研究，他们给受试者喂食的热量超出了他们的习惯摄入量 4 到 800 卡路里，其中仅含蛋白质。

And either recomposition happened, or no significant change in body composition happened.

要么发生重组，要么身体成分没有发生显着变化。

The pro-

亲

Andrew Huberman Were they training?

安德鲁·胡伯曼 他们在训练吗？

Alan Aragon They were resistance training.

艾伦·阿拉贡 他们正在进行阻力训练。

And so what protein apparently does when you consume very high amounts of it, up to a gram, a gram and a half per pound of body weight, is it just sort of spontaneously does some magical things.

因此，当你摄入大量蛋白质（每磅体重一克、一克半）时，蛋白质显然会发挥作用，它会自发地发挥一些神奇的作用。

It'll drive down your intake of the other macros.

它会减少你对其他宏的摄入量。

It will potentially increase your exercise energy expenditure and/or your non-exercise energy expenditure.

它可能会增加您的运动能量消耗和/或非运动能量消耗。

It will do odd things.

它会做奇怪的事情。

I talked to Joey Antonio when he got some feedback from the subjects on his very high protein study, where he subjected them to two grams per pound for an eight-week period.

当乔伊·安东尼奥从受试者那里得到一些关于他的高蛋白质研究的反馈时，我与他进行了交谈，他在八周内让受试者每磅摄入两克蛋白质。

And he had subjects coming to him saying, "Hey, I'm sweating while I'm sleeping."

有人来找他说：“嘿，我睡觉时出汗了。”

Andrew Huberman When you say two grams of protein per pound of body weight, are we talking about increasing total caloric intake, or just using more of one's daily caloric needs, devoting more of that to quality protein?

Andrew Huberman 当你说每磅体重两克蛋白质时，我们是在谈论增加总热量摄入，还是只是利用更多的日常热量需求，将更多的热量用于优质蛋白质？

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Alan Aragon See, that's the super interesting and kind of mysterious part.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon） 看，这就是超级有趣且神秘的部分。

They're literally saying, "Okay, maintain your usual dietary habits, and then just add 50 to 100 grams of protein on top."

他们的字面意思是：“好吧，保持平常的饮食习惯，然后添加 50 到 100 克蛋白质即可。”

Andrew Huberman So, you're eating an extra chicken breast and a couple scoops of whey protein, or maybe some eggs as well and- So you're just adding more quality protein, on top of what you're already eating.

安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）所以，你要多吃一块鸡胸肉和几勺乳清蛋白，或者可能还有一些鸡蛋，而且——所以你只是在你已经吃的东西的基础上添加更多优质蛋白质。

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Alan Aragon Adding more quality protein.

艾伦·阿拉贡 (Alan Aragon) 添加更多优质蛋白质。

Alan Aragon On top of what you already eat.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon） 在你已经吃过的东西之上。

Andrew Huberman And we already learned that we can distribute that pretty much wherever we want.

Andrew Huberman 我们已经了解到，我们几乎可以将其分发到任何我们想要的地方。

Alan Aragon Right.

艾伦·阿拉贡 对。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman Just do what's most comfortable for you, relative to your training and other needs.

Andrew Huberman 根据您的训练和其他需求，做最适合您的事情。

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Andrew Huberman And you're saying then, "But they're sweating in their sleep."

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）然后你会说，“但他们在睡觉时出汗了。”

Alan Aragon They're sweating in their sleep.

艾伦·阿拉贡：他们在睡梦中出汗。

An extra 80 to 100 grams of protein, just add it.

额外的80到100克蛋白质，补充一下就可以了。

Look, it's a free-living study, so we're not surveilling people in a metabolic ward.

看，这是一项自由生活的研究，所以我们不是在代谢病房里监视人们。

So, the increase in protein could have translated to greater energy expenditure through a number of pathways, non-exercise pathways or exercise pathways.

因此，蛋白质的增加可能通过多种途径、非运动途径或运动途径转化为更大的能量消耗。

It could put more power to the ground during their training.

它可以在训练期间为地面提供更多动力。

There could have been some sort of some magic thermic stuff going on.

可能发生了某种神奇的热效应。

Who knows?

谁知道？

And also, we can't discount the fact that, when you're telling people to add, let's say, 80 or 100 grams of protein to their habitual intake, the weird thing about subject self-reporting is they tend to over-report the healthy stuff that you assign them, and under-report the unhealthy stuff.

而且，我们不能忽视这样一个事实：当你告诉人们在习惯摄入量中添加 80 或 100 克蛋白质时，受试者自我报告的奇怪之处在于，他们往往会多报你分配给他们的健康食物，而少报不健康的食物。

Andrew Huberman The thermic effect.

安德鲁·休伯曼 热效应。

Andrew Huberman The good pupil phenomenon.

安德鲁·休伯曼 好学生现象。

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Exactly.

确切地。

And so, there could be some misreporting going on there.

因此，那里可能存在一些误报。

But over a series of five-ish studies now, just stack the protein on top, nobody gains fat, and some people lose fat.

但现在经过一系列五项左右的研究，只要将蛋白质堆放在上面，没有人会增加脂肪，有些人会减掉脂肪。

Andrew Huberman Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼 是的。

Andrew Huberman Awesome.

安德鲁·休伯曼 太棒了。

Alan Aragon Yeah, it is pretty freaking awesome.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）是的，这真是太棒了。

Now, here's the thing that needs to be said.

现在，这是需要说的事情。

There was a metabolic ward study done in 2013-ish by Bray and colleagues, where they subjected the participants to escalating amounts of protein.

Bray 和他的同事在 2013 年左右进行了一项代谢病房研究，他们让参与者摄入的蛋白质含量不断增加。

And it was a protein overfeeding study.

这是一项蛋白质过量喂养的研究。

There were three levels of protein intakes.

蛋白质摄入量分为三个水平。

There was a 5% protein diet, a 15% protein diet, and a 30-ish% protein diet.

有 5% 蛋白质饮食、15% 蛋白质饮食和 30% 左右蛋白质饮食。

The total calories escalated too.

总热量也随之增加。

There was no exercise involved with this metabolic ward study.

这项代谢病房研究没有涉及任何运动。

And the subjects gained both lean mass and fat mass with the escalating protein amounts.

随着蛋白质含量的增加，受试者的瘦体重和脂肪质量都增加了。

So, there's different stuff going on.

所以，有不同的事情发生。

Alan Aragon When you lock people up in a metabolic ward and they can't train, and then you're escalating their protein intakes and calories, they will gain fat and lean mass.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon） 当你把人们关在代谢病房并且他们无法训练时，然后你增加他们的蛋白质摄入量和卡路里，他们就会增加脂肪和瘦体重。

But, in free living conditions with resistance training, if you just over-protein the subjects, they actually have a tendency to lose fat.

但是，在进行阻力训练的自由生活条件下，如果你给受试者提供过多的蛋白质，他们实际上有减脂的趋势。

And it's a really interesting phenomenon, because it's been seen repeatedly.

这是一个非常有趣的现象，因为它已经被反复看到。

Andrew Huberman With men and women?

安德鲁·休伯曼 与男人和女人？

Alan Aragon With men and women, yes.

艾伦·阿拉贡 对于男人和女人来说，是的。

Andrew Huberman The message I'm getting is, if you're going to add calories, add quality protein.

Andrew Huberman 我得到的信息是，如果你要增加卡路里，就添加优质蛋白质。

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Andrew Huberman Make sure you're resistance training.

Andrew Huberman 确保您正在进行阻力训练。

Here, I'm building on the previous things we talked about.

在这里，我是在我们之前讨论过的事情的基础上进行的。

The distribution of the protein probably doesn't matter as much, as just getting the total protein, correct?

蛋白质的分布可能并不重要，重要的是获得总蛋白质，对吗？

Alan Aragon Yep.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Andrew Huberman And I find it very reassuring that I can train fasted or not fasted, mostly because very few of us have total control of our schedule.

Andrew Huberman 我发现我可以禁食或不禁食训练，这让我非常放心，主要是因为我们中很少有人能够完全控制自己的日程安排。

So, sometimes we need to train first thing in the morning, then we got to catch a flight or head to work, and sometimes people only have time in the evening, this kind of thing.

所以，有时我们需要早上第一件事就是训练，然后我们必须赶飞机或去上班，有时人们只有晚上才有时间，这种事情。

I want to make sure that we talk about some of the other macronutrients.

我想确保我们谈论一些其他常量营养素。

Alan Aragon Sure.

艾伦·阿拉贡 当然。

Andrew Huberman Because carbohydrates do exist.

安德鲁·休伯曼 因为碳水化合物确实存在。

Andrew Huberman We won't talk about fiber just now.

Andrew Huberman：我们现在不讨论光纤。

Can we actually put fiber onto the shelf quickly by saying, fiber's good, right?

我们真的可以通过说“纤维很好吗？”来快速将纤维上架，对吗？

Alan Aragon Yes.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Andrew Huberman Okay.

安德鲁·休伯曼 好的。

Fiber's good.

纤维很好啊

Get fiber.

获取纤维。

Alan Aragon The short answer is it's good.

Alan Aragon 简短的回答是它很好。

Andrew Huberman Get fiber, and get it through fruits and vegetables.

Andrew Huberman 获取纤维，通过水果和蔬菜获取。

And if you're not doing that, get it through some supplement, but ideally through fruits and vegetables, right?

如果你不这样做，可以通过一些补充剂来补充，但最好是通过水果和蔬菜，对吧？

Alan Aragon Fruits, vegetables, legumes, grains.

Alan Aragon 水果、蔬菜、豆类、谷物。

Grains are a double-edged sword.

谷物是一把双刃剑。

Andrew Huberman Right.

安德鲁·休伯曼 对。

Because they're high calorie.

因为它们热量高。

Alan Aragon You got the refined grains, the flour foods, and then you have the whole grains.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）：你有精制谷物、面粉食品，然后还有全谷物。

But even some of the whole grains, there's such thing as whole grain goldfish crackers.

但即使是一些全谷物，也有全谷物金鱼饼干之类的东西。

A bit of a treacherous little area there for people who are trying to economize on the junk, and the calories that they consume.

对于那些试图节省垃圾和卡路里消耗的人来说，这是一个危险的小区域。

You could still have a whole grain diet that has just a bunch of crap.

你仍然可以吃全麦饮食，但里面只有一堆垃圾。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman Right.

安德鲁·休伯曼 对。

So, fruits, vegetables, but get your fiber.

所以，水果、蔬菜，但要摄入纤维。

Fiber's key.

纤维的关键。

But when we talk about carbohydrates, let's divide them crudely into starchy carbohydrates, so stuff that basically will melt in your mouth.

但是当我们谈论碳水化合物时，让我们将它们粗略地分为淀粉类碳水化合物，这样的东西基本上会在你的嘴里融化。

That's the way I think about it, right?

我就是这么想的，对吗？

A piece of cooked potato, a piece of cooked yam.

一块煮熟的土豆，一块煮熟的山药。

Yes, if you put a piece of cooked pasta in your mouth long enough, or even uncooked pasta, it'll eventually dissolve as opposed to-

是的，如果你把一块煮熟的意大利面放在嘴里足够长的时间，甚至是未煮熟的意大利面，它最终会溶解，而不是-

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Alan Aragon Get fiber.

艾伦·阿拉贡 获取纤维。

Alan Aragon Sure

艾伦·阿拉贡 当然

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Okay.

艾伦·阿拉贡 好的。

Yeah.

是的。

Alan Aragon Or you just inhale it.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）或者你只是吸入它。

Andrew Huberman Right.

安德鲁·休伯曼 对。

Or it- Well, don't do that.

或者它——好吧，别那样做。

Or a piece of broccoli, which most of it is not going to melt in your mouth.

或者一片西兰花，其中大部分不会在你嘴里融化。

You'll be waiting several weeks.

你要等几个星期。

It's because there's a lot of fiber there.

这是因为那里有很多纤维。

So, this is the crude way of distinguishing between fibers and non-fibers.

所以，这是区分纤维和非纤维的粗略方法。

So starchy and non-starchy carbohydrates.

所以淀粉类和非淀粉类碳水化合物。

Starches in some sense are a great fuel.

从某种意义上说，淀粉是一种很好的燃料。

They put glycogen in our liver and muscles.

他们将糖原放入我们的肝脏和肌肉中。

They can fuel things like resistance training.

它们可以促进阻力训练等活动。

They can help us think.

他们可以帮助我们思考。

All the ketogenic folks are being like, "I think best fasted," or "I think best keto," but brain likes glucose.

所有生酮人士都说，“我认为最好禁食”或“我认为最好生酮”，但大脑喜欢葡萄糖。

What is your take on carbohydrates with respect to maintaining or losing body fat?

您对碳水化合物在维持或减少体内脂肪方面的看法如何？

Meaning, do carbohydrates make it harder to do that if one is doing everything else equally?

意思是，如果一个人同等地做其他所有事情，碳水化合物是否会使做到这一点变得更困难？

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Sure.

艾伦·阿拉贡 当然。

Alan Aragon Sure.

艾伦·阿拉贡 当然。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman ...

安德鲁·休伯曼...

meaning you're getting exercise, and you're not exceeding your daily caloric intake.

这意味着您正在锻炼，并且没有超过每日的热量摄入量。

Are starches inherently bad?

淀粉本身就不好吗？

Alan Aragon That's a great question.

艾伦·阿拉贡 这是一个很好的问题。

I defer to the evidence, and of course, evidence is its own thing.

我尊重证据，当然，证据本身就是事情。

You've got research here, and then you have observations and anecdotes here.

你在这里进行研究，然后你在这里进行观察和轶事。

Right?

正确的？

Andrew Huberman Well, let's talk primarily about research.

Andrew Huberman 好吧，我们主要谈谈研究。

Anecdotes are great.

轶事很棒。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman But it generally tends to circle around to what people find has worked best for them.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）但它通常倾向于围绕人们认为最适合他们的东西。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman And I'm happy to talk about that.

Andrew Huberman 我很高兴谈论这个。

I'm sure you're happy to talk about that.

我相信你很高兴谈论这个。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman But I think what I like to emphasize on this podcast, and what you do so beautifully is to talk about, what does the best possible set of controlled studies say when kind of lumped together?

安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）但我想我想在这个播客中强调的是什么，而你做得如此出色的是谈论，当最好的对照研究集中在一起时会说些什么？

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman Unless there's one study that kind of rises above the rest because it was done so well.

安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：除非有一项研究能够超越其他研究，因为它做得非常好。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman I think it's so hard to do quality studies in humans, so we have to have that caveat.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）我认为在人类身上进行高质量的研究非常困难，所以我们必须有这样的警告。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman The more you control, the less natural the conditions are.

安德鲁·休伯曼 (Andrew Huberman) 你控制得越多，情况就越不自然。

Right?

正确的？

The more natural the conditions are, the less can be controlled.

条件越自然，可控制的就越少。

Alan Aragon Yes.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Andrew Huberman This is why there will always be jobs for people in nutrition and fitness because ultimately, you bring people into a metabolic ward, it's very unnatural.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman） 这就是为什么营养和健身领域的人总会有工作机会的原因，因为最终，你把人们带进代谢病房，这是非常不自然的。

Alan Aragon Sure.

艾伦·阿拉贡 当然。

Andrew Huberman You let them free range and just tell you what they ate.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman） 你让它们自由放养，然后告诉你它们吃了什么。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman They lie, or they forget, and they cheat.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）他们撒谎，或者他们忘记，他们欺骗。

Alan Aragon Absolutely.

艾伦·阿拉贡 绝对的。

Andrew Huberman They sneak some Starburst, and they don't tell you about it.

Andrew Huberman 他们偷偷地偷了一些 Starburst，但他们不会告诉你。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman So, that's just life.

安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，这就是生活。

Alan Aragon Even clients who are paying you a lot of money, you can't necessarily trust 100% of what they're reporting to you, much less a group of subjects in a study.

Alan Aragon 即使客户付给你很多钱，你也不一定能 100% 相信他们向你报告的内容，更不用说研究中的一组受试者了。

So, yeah.

所以，是的。

The carbohydrate thing, whether it's starches, whether it's sugars, either one.

碳水化合物，无论是淀粉，还是糖，都可以。

So, the body of research on carbohydrate and fat loss, you can distill it down like this.

所以，碳水化合物和减脂的研究主体，你可以这样提炼出来。

As long as you have equated total calories and you've equated protein intake between the two groups, then body fat reduction by the end of every well-controlled trial in existence basically, shows no significant difference in fat loss between the groups.

只要你将两组之间的总热量和蛋白质摄入量相等，那么在现有的每一个良好控制的试验结束时，基本上，两组之间的脂肪减少没有显着差异。

So, protein is kind of the great equalizer, as well as total calories.

因此，蛋白质和总热量一样，是一种很好的均衡剂。

Alan Aragon Now here's the little wrinkle to that answer.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）：现在这个答案有一个小问题。

If you take somebody who's on a standard Western diet, and you put them on a ketogenic diet, or if you control the experiment with kind of a high carb, low fat type of regular, run-of-the-mill controlled diet versus a ketogenic diet, and you don't equate protein, then the ketogenic diet will beat the crap out of the control diet every time with fat loss and weight loss because it has more protein.

如果你让一个接受标准西方饮食的人接受生酮饮食，或者如果你用一种高碳水化合物、低脂肪类型的常规、普通控制饮食与生酮饮食来控制实验，并且你不将蛋白质等同起来，那么生酮饮食每次都会在减脂和减肥方面击败对照饮食，因为它含有更多的蛋白质。

Andrew Huberman Mm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 M.

Alan Aragon And in some cases, if you go as extreme as a carnivore-type diet and stuff like that, then you're looking at a narrowing of your options.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）在某些情况下，如果你采取极端的肉食性饮食和类似的饮食方式，那么你的选择范围就会缩小。

So, the reduction in variety and possibilities also leads to less total caloric intake.

因此，品种和可能性的减少也会导致总热量摄入减少。

So, with ketogenic diets, there routinely is, when it is an ad libitum ketogenic diet that you put the subjects on-

因此，对于生酮饮食，当它是一种随意的生酮饮食时，你通常会让受试者——

Andrew Huberman Can you maybe explain 'ad libitum' to people whose Latin is lacking or haven't worked in a lab, yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：你能否向那些缺乏拉丁语或没有在实验室工作过的人解释一下“随意”，是的。

Alan Aragon Sure.

艾伦·阿拉贡 当然。

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Okay.

好的。

No, thanks for that.

不，谢谢你。

So, ad libitum means that you are not consciously calculating or restricting, you are just eating as desired.

所以，随意吃意味着你没有有意识地计算或限制，你只是想吃就吃。

Andrew Huberman What you want?

安德鲁·休伯曼 你想要什么？

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon And so, when you assign somebody a ketogenic diet where you say, "Hey, avoid this, and that carb food, avoid carbs, and you can eat as much as you feel like with the proteins and the fats.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）所以，当你给某人分配生酮饮食时，你会说：“嘿，避免这个和那个碳水化合物食物，避免碳水化合物，你可以随心所欲地吃蛋白质和脂肪。

Go do it." What happens when you assign somebody that, is they spontaneously eat across the range of studies, somewhere between 400 and all the way to 900 calories less per day compared to their habitual intakes or compared to the control diet intakes.

去做吧。”当你指定某人时，会发生什么，他们在研究范围内自发地吃东西，与他们的习惯摄入量或对照饮食摄入量相比，每天少吃 400 到 900 卡路里。

That's just what happens.

这就是发生的事情。

Andrew Huberman That's interesting, right?

安德鲁·胡伯曼 这很有趣，对吧？

Because they could eat more if they want; they're not being restricted.

因为如果他们愿意的话，他们可以吃更多；他们没有受到限制。

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Andrew Huberman I think this speaks to how satiating protein is.

安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）我认为这说明了蛋白质的饱腹感。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman And especially how satiating protein and fats are in combination.

Andrew Huberman 尤其是蛋白质和脂肪的组合如何产生饱腹感。

If I'm hungry on a long drive, and I can only eat one thing, I'm assuming I have water, which I would want with me...

如果我在长途驾驶中感到饥饿，而我只能吃一种东西，我假设我有水，我会想要随身携带水......

If I'm out on the road on Interstate 5, I've got no food with me, everything's closed because it's Christmas Day, but there's an In-N-Out Burger, (they're probably closed too), and I can get two hamburger patties, that's my pick.

如果我在 5 号州际公路上，我没有带食物，一切都关门了，因为今天是圣诞节，但有一个 In-N-Out 汉堡（他们可能也关门了），我可以买两个汉堡肉饼，这是我的选择。

Not the French fries.

不是炸薯条。

Even though calorie for calorie out, they are probably landing about the same place, more or less, because there's just something so inherently satiating about protein.

即使卡路里消耗殆尽，它们也可能或多或少地落在同一个地方，因为蛋白质本身就具有令人满足的东西。

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman So, that makes sense, the keto diet makes sense.

安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）所以，这是有道理的，生酮饮食是有道理的。

The issue I have with the keto diet is that until pretty recently, it was tougher to remain in the general social context of life.

我对生酮饮食的问题是，直到最近，要留在一般的社会生活背景中还是比较困难的。

You can't have a cracker.

你不能吃饼干。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman I don't like crackers, but you can't have a piece of sourdough bread.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）我不喜欢饼干，但你不能吃一块酵母面包。

Alan Aragon That's rough.

艾伦·阿拉贡 太粗糙了。

Andrew Huberman That's rough, right?

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman） 这很粗糙，对吧？

Alan Aragon We love sourdough around here.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon） 我们喜欢这里的酵母。

Andrew Huberman Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼 是的。

And then, people struggle a lot with holidays.

然后，人们在假期中遇到很多困难。

Right?

正确的？

I think keto is tough for people around the holidays.

我认为假期期间的人们很难吃酮。

As long as we're in this category of discussion, what are your thoughts about inflammation?

既然我们在这一类讨论中，您对炎症有何看法？

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Andrew Huberman And here's why I ask, and I ask it this way.

安德鲁·休伯曼：这就是我问的原因，我这样问。

Alan Aragon Right.

艾伦·阿拉贡 对。

Andrew Huberman I know many people who struggled with their weight for a very long time.

安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）我认识很多人，他们长期与体重作斗争。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman A lot of male friends, some female friends, who, when they adopt a diet of the following things: meat, fish, eggs, Parmesan cheese as the only category of dairy...

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）很多男性朋友，一些女性朋友，当他们采用以下食物的饮食时：肉，鱼，鸡蛋，帕尔马干酪作为唯一的乳制品类别......

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman So hard cheese, fruit and vegetables, olive oil, butter, coffee and tea fine, but no sodas or anything except diet sodas...

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）所以硬奶酪，水果和蔬菜，橄榄油，黄油，咖啡和茶都可以，但没有苏打水或除无糖苏打水之外的任何东西......

They lose significant amounts of body fat.

他们失去了大量的身体脂肪。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman Probably some water too.

安德鲁·休伯曼 可能还有一些水。

So, they're not eating any starches: no rice, no oatmeal, no bread, no pizza, nothing.

所以，他们不吃任何淀粉类食物：不吃米饭，不吃燕麦片，不吃面包，不吃披萨，什么都没有。

This is anecdotal, but they've all managed to lose anywhere from 25 to 50 or even 60 pounds.

这是传闻，但他们都成功减掉了 25 到 50 磅甚至 60 磅。

They're exercising typically.

他们通常都在锻炼身体。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman Sometimes just cardio.

安德鲁·休伯曼 有时只是有氧运动。

So, significant amounts of body weight and they keep it off.

因此，体重很大，但他们却保持住了。

And a number of their health challenges seem to resolve themselves, perhaps secondarily to the weight loss.

他们的许多健康挑战似乎都得到了解决，或许继体重减轻之后也得到了解决。

But I often wonder whether or not this, what some people call a "low inflammation diet," because there are so few processed and highly processed foods in this regimen, has additional benefits that start to synergize with the fat loss.

但我经常想知道，这种被一些人称为“低炎症饮食”的饮食方案是否具有与减脂协同作用的额外好处，因为这种饮食方案中的加工食品和高度加工食品很少。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman And it's remarkable how much better they look, how much better they feel, and they can maintain that pretty well.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman） 令人惊奇的是，他们看起来好多了，感觉好多了，而且他们可以很好地保持这些。

Because you can say, "You know, I'll pass on the bread and the pie, but you know, I'm going to have double servings of turkey and Brussels sprouts." It's kind of remarkable what can be accomplished with what I just described, and yet I don't know a name for that diet.

因为你可以说，“你知道，我会把面包和馅饼递给你，但你知道，我会吃双份火鸡和球芽甘蓝。”通过我刚才描述的方法可以实现的效果是非常了不起的，但我不知道这种饮食的名称。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman And it's not what I follow.

Andrew Huberman 这不是我所遵循的。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman I eat starches.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）我吃淀粉。

But what are your thoughts on inflammation and how certain macronutrient profiles, perhaps, are pro-inflammatory or anti-inflammatory, or something people rarely talk about, which is inflammatory neutral, which kind of keeps you in a neither high nor low inflammation state but just kind of normal fluctuations in inflammation?

但是你对炎症的看法是什么？某些常量营养素的成分可能是促炎或抗炎的，或者人们很少谈论的东西，它是炎症中性的，这会让你处于既不高也不低的炎症状态，而只是炎症的正常波动？

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman Long question, but I feel like it's one I've wanted to ask for a while, and you're the guy to ask.

安德鲁·休伯曼 (Andrew Huberman) 这是一个很长的问题，但我觉得我已经想问这个问题有一段时间了，而你就是那个要问的人。

Alan Aragon Okay.

艾伦·阿拉贡 好的。

So, I'm going to speculate a little bit.

所以，我要稍微推测一下。

I think that any diet that facilitates substantial fat loss is going to lower the amount of inflammatory cytokines circulating and emanating from the adipose tissue.

我认为任何有助于大量减少脂肪的饮食都会降低脂肪组织循环和散发的炎症细胞因子的数量。

And so, if you can get that body fat down, then you can get chronic low-grade inflammation down.

因此，如果你能降低体内脂肪，那么你就能减少慢性低度炎症。

If that body fat is reduced from everywhere, the subcutaneous space, especially the visceral space, then you're going to do a lot of good things for long-term health.

如果身体各处的脂肪都减少了，皮下空间，尤其是内脏空间，那么你将为长期健康做很多好事。

The reason why the diet that you described is so effective at this, is because it lacks hyper-palatability.

你所描述的饮食之所以如此有效，是因为它缺乏超适口性。

And so, the way that you create hyper-palatability...

所以，创造超适口性的方式......

Hyper-palatability is basically the tendency for food to be very flavorful, very delicious, and very easy to passively overconsume.

超适口性基本上是指食物非常美味、非常美味并且很容易被动过度消费的倾向。

Alan Aragon And so the formula for hyper-palatability is basically refined carbs, fat, mixed together, salt it and/or make it sweet.

艾伦·阿拉贡 因此，超适口性的配方基本上是精制碳水化合物、脂肪，混合在一起，加盐和/或使其变甜。

And there's your formula for food that is easily passively overconsumed.

还有你的食物配方很容易被动过度消耗。

And the diet that you described doesn't have these ultra-processed, highly engineered refined carb and fat combo foods that we are just kind of driven to just inhale down.

你所描述的饮食中没有这些经过超加工、高度工程化的精制碳水化合物和脂肪组合食物，我们只是被迫吸入这些食物。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon And so, I think that my view could possibly be a little bit too simplistic, but I think the inflammation issue is really tied to an excess body fat issue.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）因此，我认为我的观点可能有点过于简单化，但我认为炎症问题确实与体内过多的脂肪问题有关。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

I'm very grateful for that answer.

我非常感谢这个答案。

And again, I've seen so many friends that lose significant amounts of body fat and stick with this diet.

再说一次，我见过很多朋友减掉了大量的身体脂肪并坚持这种饮食。

It's also one that if one were to have a slice of cake or a piece of pizza, you're not really deviating that far from the total contour of the nutritional plan.

还有一个问题是，如果一个人吃一块蛋糕或一块披萨，你并没有真正偏离营养计划的总体轮廓那么远。

It's not like you're suddenly out of keto or something.

这并不是说你突然失去了酮或其他东西。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman And they don't tend to cascade into binges and things of that sort.

安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：他们不会陷入暴饮暴食之类的事情。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman I will say that most of these people also quit drinking alcohol at the same time, which probably has its own benefits.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）我会说，这些人中的大多数人同时戒酒，这可能有其自身的好处。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Andrew Huberman We'll return to alcohol a little bit later.

安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：我们稍后再回到酒精话题。

Alan Aragon And there are some nutrients that are directly anti-inflammatory, like Omega-3 fatty acids.

Alan Aragon 还有一些营养素可以直接抗炎，比如 Omega-3 脂肪酸。

Andrew Huberman Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼 是的。

Alan Aragon Huge literature on their anti-inflammatory effects.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）关于其抗炎作用的大量文献。

Andrew Huberman Do you supplement with those personally?

Andrew Huberman 你个人会补充这些吗？

Alan Aragon I do.

艾伦·阿拉贡 我愿意。

Andrew Huberman You take fish oil?

安德鲁·休伯曼 你吃鱼油吗？

Alan Aragon I do.

艾伦·阿拉贡 我愿意。

And I know that there's some controversy and some infighting with the idea of supplementing with fish oil.

我知道补充鱼油的想法存在一些争议和内讧。

Now people are afraid of atrial fibrillation and things like that.

现在人们害怕心房颤动之类的事情。

But, eh, I've been doing it, and if you look at the literature, especially the randomized control trials, it is mostly good stuff, man.

但是，呃，我一直在这样做，如果你看一下文献，特别是随机对照试验，你会发现它大多都是好东西，伙计。

You could find negative literature on almost anything that you do.

你几乎可以找到关于你所做的任何事情的负面文献。

Andrew Huberman Sure.

安德鲁·休伯曼 当然。

Alan Aragon But on balance, I am still comfortable with supplementing with fish oil at this point in time, regardless of the mounting evidence that, "Oh, it might not do anything," or "Oh, it might have this or that potentially adverse effect." I kind of think it's a no-brainer if you're not somebody who eats fatty fish regularly through the week.

艾伦·阿拉贡 (Alan Aragon) 但总的来说，我仍然对目前补充鱼油感到满意，尽管越来越多的证据表明，“哦，它可能没有任何作用”，或者“哦，它可能会产生这样或那样的潜在不利影响。”我认为如果你不是一个每周经常吃富含脂肪的鱼的人，这是理所当然的。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Yeah.

是的。

The high-quality sources of fatty fish tend to be very expensive.

优质的多脂鱼来源往往非常昂贵。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman And they're harder and harder to find.

Andrew Huberman：而且它们越来越难找到。

And talk about controversy, you get into this debate about whether different sources of salmon...

谈论争议，你会陷入关于不同来源的鲑鱼是否......的争论。

It gets really messy.

它变得非常混乱。

I'm sure there are great sources out there, but that's a whole discussion unto itself.

我确信那里有很好的资源，但这本身就是一个完整的讨论。

I take fish oil; I also have for many years.

我服用鱼油；我也有很多年了。

I plan to continue doing it, and so I'm grateful to hear that you do as well, because you're the expert.

我计划继续这样做，所以我很高兴听到你也这样做，因为你是专家。

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

We're both on that train.

我们都在那趟火车上。

We're rebels.

我们是叛逆者。

Andrew Huberman Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼 是的。

So, the anti-inflammation effect, if nothing else, seems to warrant that.

因此，如果不考虑其他因素，抗炎作用似乎是有道理的。

I'd like to talk about sugar.

我想谈谈糖。

Alan Aragon Hmm?

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯？

Andrew Huberman I've had people on this podcast sit where you're sitting and basically paint a picture of sugar that it is not quite as bad as crack cocaine and meth, but not too far from that.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）我在这个播客上让人们坐在你坐的地方，基本上描绘了一幅关于糖的画面，它不像强效可卡因和冰毒那么糟糕，但也相差不远。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman Kind of exaggerating.

安德鲁·休伯曼有点夸张。

And I've had people who land in the more, kind of tempered response to sugar.

我遇到过一些人对糖的反应比较温和。

But let's define sugar.

但让我们来定义一下糖。

Alan Aragon Sure.

艾伦·阿拉贡 当然。

Andrew Huberman When I say sugar, I'm not talking about fructose in fruit, because in fruit you've got fructose, but you've got fiber and there's a high-water content and sure, some fruits have higher fructose content than others.

Andrew Huberman 当我说糖时，我不是在谈论水果中的果糖，因为水果中含有果糖，但也含有纤维，而且水分含量高，当然，有些水果的果糖含量比其他水果更高。

Mangoes versus apples, for instance, or something of that sort.

例如，芒果与苹果之类的。

But when I'm talking about sugar, I'm talking about if one looks at a package or a label and sees added sugars.

但当我谈论糖时，我指的是人们在查看包装或标签时是否发现添加糖。

How bad are added sugars?

添加糖有多糟糕？

Because those are really the ones that tend to fall into this bin of "bad sugar" in a lot of people's minds.

因为在很多人的心目中，这些糖确实属于“坏糖”。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Okay.

艾伦·阿拉贡 好的。

So, they dilute the nutritive value of the diet, and they contribute to hyper-palatability, if you're talking about extrinsic sugars added to the diet.

因此，如果您谈论的是添加到饮食中的外来糖，它们会稀释饮食的营养价值，并且会导致适口性过高。

Really, only two sources of intrinsic sugars are in fruit and in milk.

事实上，内在糖只有两种来源：水果和牛奶。

Everything else, you're just pretty much adding it, with the exception of maybe agave.

其他一切，你几乎都只是添加它，除了龙舌兰。

But that's kind of a rare, esoteric thing.

但这是一种罕见的、深奥的事情。

But added sugars to the diet should be consumed judiciously.

但饮食中添加的糖分应谨慎食用。

The working recommendation is to try to limit added sugars to the diet to 10% of total calories.

工作建议是尽量将饮食中的添加糖限制在总热量的 10% 以内。

Alan Aragon So, if you're somebody who likes to put maple syrup on whatever you might do, or somebody who likes to put honey on whatever you might do, then you may want to limit that to a typical, let's say, 2,000 calorie diet, and you might want to limit it to a maximum of 40 to 50 grams a day.

Alan Aragon 所以，如果你喜欢在任何你可能做的事情上添加枫糖浆，或者喜欢在你可能做的任何事情上添加蜂蜜，那么你可能想要将其限制在典型的，比方说，2,000 卡路里的饮食中，并且你可能希望将其限制在每天最多 40 到 50 克。

Andrew Huberman That still seems high.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman） 这似乎仍然很高。

Alan Aragon It does.

艾伦·阿拉贡 确实如此。

Andrew Huberman 40 to 50 grams?

安德鲁·休伯曼 40 到 50 克？

Who's eating that much sugar?

谁吃那么多糖？

Alan Aragon Me.

艾伦·阿拉贡 我。

Andrew Huberman Oh, really?

安德鲁·休伯曼 哦，真的吗？

You have a sweet tooth?

你爱吃甜食吗？

Alan Aragon No. I love honey, and I love maple syrup.

艾伦·阿拉贡 不。我喜欢蜂蜜，也喜欢枫糖浆。

Andrew Huberman Ah.

安德鲁·休伯曼 啊。

See, I have a savory tooth.

看，我有一颗咸味的牙齿。

I have to try and not eat the entire block of Parmesan cheese.

我必须尽量不要吃掉整块帕尔马干酪。

Alan Aragon I have both, man.

艾伦·阿拉贡 我两者都有，伙计。

I always joke that I have an inner fat boy within me, but I actually have been technically obese by BMI standards, around 10 years back.

我总是开玩笑说我内心有一个胖男孩，但实际上，按照 BMI 标准，大约 10 年前，我实际上已经是肥胖了。

Andrew Huberman You're how old now?

安德鲁·休伯曼 你现在多大了？

Alan Aragon 53.

艾伦·阿拉贡 53。

Andrew Huberman Great.

安德鲁·休伯曼 太棒了。

Well, you seem to be in great shape.

嗯，看来你的状态很好。

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Andrew Huberman No hormone augmentation.

安德鲁·休伯曼 (Andrew Huberman) 无激素增强。

We clarified that earlier, I asked.

我问，我们之前澄清过这一点。

This is what guys ask each other nowadays, "Are you doing any hormone augmentation?" "No." So, Alan says, "No," and I believe him completely.

这就是现在人们互相问的问题：“你在做激素增强治疗吗？” “不。”所以，艾伦说：“不。”我完全相信他。

But yeah, you're in great shape at 53.

但是，是的，你 53 岁了，身体状况很好。

Alan Aragon Thank you.

艾伦·阿拉贡 谢谢。

Andrew Huberman And you have a sweet tooth and a savory tooth.

安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：你既爱吃甜食，又爱吃咸味。

So, how do you contend with it?

那么，你如何应对呢？

Alan Aragon I do, man.

艾伦·阿拉贡 我愿意，伙计。

Alan Aragon Oh, okay, so that's a great question because I can dish out something practical here.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）哦，好吧，这是一个很好的问题，因为我可以在这里提出一些实用的东西。

Protein powder.

蛋白粉。

Protein powder satisfies the heck out of my sweet tooth.

蛋白粉满足了我对甜食的渴望。

And I actually don't have the full 50 grams of added sugar.

而且我实际上没有添加足量的 50 克糖。

I might add a tablespoon of maple syrup to my coffee.

我可能会在咖啡中加入一汤匙枫糖浆。

Andrew Huberman To your coffee?

安德鲁·休伯曼 喝咖啡吗？

Alan Aragon In the day, yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 在这一天，是的。

Andrew Huberman Sorry, I'm just laughing-

安德鲁·休伯曼 抱歉，我只是在笑-

Alan Aragon Dude...

艾伦·阿拉贡 老兄...

Okay, so you know those moka pot thingies?

好吧，你知道那些摩卡壶的事吗？

Andrew Huberman Oh, moka pot?

安德鲁·休伯曼 哦，摩卡壶？

Sorry.

对不起。

Alan Aragon It's called moka pot.

艾伦·阿拉贡 它的名字叫摩卡壶。

It's like some...

这就像一些...

Andrew Huberman It's a piece of hardware?

Andrew Huberman：这是一个硬件？

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Andrew Huberman Oh, okay.

安德鲁·休伯曼 哦，好吧。

Alan Aragon It's the thing where you...

艾伦·阿拉贡 这是你...

It's this odd, hourglass steel thing.

这是一个奇怪的沙漏钢东西。

Andrew Huberman Oh, right, it's like an hourglass-shaped coffee pot.

Andrew Huberman 哦，对了，它就像一个沙漏形的咖啡壶。

Alan Aragon Yes.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Andrew Huberman Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼 是的。

Okay.

好的。

Alan Aragon So, I have that.

艾伦·阿拉贡 所以，我有这个。

And what I'm trying to do, is I'm trying to duplicate the Thai coffee.

我想做的是复制泰国咖啡。

Is it Thai?

是泰国的吗？

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon What is it?

艾伦·阿拉贡 这是什么？

It's really freaking good coffee that either-

这真是一杯好喝的咖啡——

Andrew Huberman Thai iced tea?

安德鲁·休伯曼泰国冰茶？

Andrew Huberman Oh, Vietnamese-

安德鲁·休伯曼哦，越南人-

Alan Aragon Vietnamese.

艾伦·阿拉贡 越南人。

Vietnamese coffee.

越南咖啡。

Andrew Huberman Vietnamese coffee?

安德鲁胡伯曼越南咖啡？

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Andrew Huberman Yeah, I love Vietnamese food.

安德鲁·休伯曼 是的，我喜欢越南菜。

I don't drink the Vietnamese coffee.

我不喝越南咖啡。

It's too sweet for me.

对我来说太甜了。

Alan Aragon Dude.

艾伦·阿拉贡 老兄。

Andrew Huberman But-

安德鲁·休伯曼但是——

Alan Aragon I'm trying to do a version of that with the moka pot, and if I put maple syrup in that, a tablespoon, it's freaking awesome.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）我正在尝试用摩卡壶做一个版本，如果我在里面放一汤匙枫糖浆，那就太棒了。

And I have that with half-and-half.

我有一半的。

It's really good.

真的很好。

Andrew Huberman So, you got a fat-sugar combination, plus caffeine.

安德鲁·胡伯曼 所以，你得到了脂肪-糖的组合，再加上咖啡因。

Alan Aragon Right.

艾伦·阿拉贡 对。

Andrew Huberman You do this in the morning before you train?

Andrew Huberman 你早上训练前会做这个吗？

Alan Aragon I've been doing it.

艾伦·阿拉贡 我一直在这么做。

I go through these phases.

我经历了这些阶段。

Andrew Huberman Mm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 M.

Alan Aragon But I have that.

艾伦·阿拉贡 但我有那个。

And so, the extent of added sugar in my diet is that tablespoon of maple syrup.

所以，我的饮食中添加糖的程度就是那汤匙枫糖浆。

So, I do agree with you, 50 grams could be a little bit up there.

所以，我确实同意你的观点，50 克可能有点高。

Andrew Huberman Oh, listen, I'm not here to judge.

安德鲁·休伯曼 哦，听着，我不是来评判的。

Like I said, if I had a sweet tooth...

就像我说的，如果我爱吃甜食......

What's interesting, I used to have one.

有趣的是，我以前也有过一个。

I lost it over the course of about a decade.

我在大约十年的时间里失去了它。

Alan Aragon Mm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 M.

Andrew Huberman I used to love Sour Patch gummies and gummies, and I love fruity tastes and that kind of thing.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）我曾经很喜欢酸味软糖和软糖，而且我喜欢水果味之类的东西。

I lost it by doing something that probably has no scientific basis.

我因为做了一些可能没有科学依据的事情而失去了它。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman But I heard years ago that if I took a teaspoon of L-glutamine, and put it in high fat, in half-and-half, in cream basically, and took a shot of that twice a day, that it would kill my sugar cravings.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）但我几年前听说，如果我服用一茶匙L-谷氨酰胺，并将其放入高脂肪中，基本上是奶油中，每天服用两次，它就会消除我对糖的渴望。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯。

Andrew Huberman And I did that, and it weaned me off sugar.

安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）我就这么做了，这让我戒掉了糖。

And then I increased my protein intake.

然后我增加了蛋白质摄入量。

So, it could've been any combination of things, or it could be total placebo.

所以，它可能是任何事物的组合，也可能是完全的安慰剂。

So, I want to acknowledge that.

所以，我想承认这一点。

Although, I've recommended this to some self-professed sugar addicts.

尽管如此，我还是向一些自称是糖瘾者的人推荐了这个。

Alan Aragon Mm, okay.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯，好的。

Andrew Huberman And they say, "Yeah, it kills the sugar craving," but then they always add the, "But I still miss my..." whatever.

安德鲁·胡伯曼 他们说，“是的，它消除了对糖的渴望，”但他们总是加上，“但我仍然想念我的……”无论如何。

They long for the sugary thing.

他们渴望含糖的东西。

I don't any longer.

我不再这样了

Alan Aragon See, this is where I headed off the sweet stuff.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon） 看，这就是我摆脱甜食的地方。

I make protein smoothies, and they're artificially sweetened, so it satisfies that dessert craving, if you will.

我制作蛋白质冰沙，它们是人工甜味剂，所以如果你愿意的话，它可以满足你对甜点的渴望。

Andrew Huberman Well, along the lines of artificial sweeteners, if you want something sweet, why wouldn't you just replace the honey with Stevia?

Andrew Huberman 嗯，按照人工甜味剂的思路，如果你想要甜的东西，为什么不直接用甜叶菊代替蜂蜜呢？

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman Because it doesn't create the same satiety that the maple syrup does for you?

安德鲁·休伯曼：因为它不会像枫糖浆那样产生同样的饱腹感？

Alan Aragon Oh, man.

艾伦·阿拉贡 哦，伙计。

Okay, so maple syrup aside...

好吧，先把枫糖浆放在一边……

You get caloric savings if your protein powder is artificially sweetened, let's say, with Stevia, or sucralose, or monkfruit, or whatever is being used in the product.

如果你的蛋白粉是人工增甜的，比如说用甜叶菊、三氯蔗糖、罗汉果或产品中使用的任何东西，你就会节省热量。

You get caloric savings and you just kind of get the macro savings, if you will, as well.

你会节省热量，如果你愿意的话，你也能节省宏观的热量。

And so, protein powders are, in my opinion, just such a breakthrough because they significantly augment the protein requirements, and they take care of essentially having something that is the experience of a dessert, to me anyway.

因此，在我看来，蛋白粉就是这样一个突破，因为它们显着增加了蛋白质需求，而且无论如何对我来说，它们本质上都照顾到了甜点的体验。

I make some really good fruit smoothies.

我做了一些非常好的水果冰沙。

I use frozen fruit, protein powder.

我用的是冷冻水果、蛋白粉。

Sometimes I do a mocha type of smoothie.

有时我会做摩卡类型的冰沙。

Sometimes I do a tropical fruit type of smoothie.

有时我会做热带水果类型的冰沙。

Andrew Huberman It's like a milkshake.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）这就像奶昔。

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

It is like a milkshake, right.

它就像奶昔，对吧。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Andrew Huberman So, you mentioned artificial sweeteners.

安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）那么，你提到了人工甜味剂。

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Andrew Huberman So, let's double click there.

Andrew Huberman 那么，让我们双击那里。

Alan Aragon Sure.

艾伦·阿拉贡 当然。

Andrew Huberman I've seen some literature that points to the possibility that they might be, "bad for the gut microbiome." Those are animal data.

安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）我看过一些文献，指出它们可能“对肠道微生物组有害”。这些是动物数据。

There are some human data.

有一些人类数据。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman But I think nowadays, saying 'artificial sweeteners' is too broad.

安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）但我认为现在说“人造甜味剂”太宽泛了。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman As we say in science, there are lumpers and splitters, and I think we need to split that, because there are low-calorie sweeteners like stevia, right, that are not artificial.

Andrew Huberman 正如我们在科学中所说的那样，有结块剂和分裂剂，我认为我们需要将其分开，因为有像甜叶菊这样的低热量甜味剂，对吧，它们不是人造的。

They're sort of technically plant-derived.

从技术上讲，它们是植物衍生的。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Sure.

艾伦·阿拉贡 当然。

Andrew Huberman And then there are artificial sweeteners like aspartame, sucralose, saccharin.

Andrew Huberman 还有人工甜味剂，如阿斯巴甜、三氯蔗糖、糖精。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman And my understanding is that sucralose and saccharin have some bad properties if consumed in excess.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）我的理解是，如果过量食用，三氯蔗糖和糖精会产生一些不良特性。

What is the deal with artificial sweeteners?

人工甜味剂有什么关系？

So, we're talking aspartame, sucralose, saccharin.

所以，我们谈论的是阿斯巴甜、三氯蔗糖、糖精。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman Let's just focus on those.

Andrew Huberman：让我们专注于这些。

Alan Aragon Sure.

艾伦·阿拉贡 当然。

Andrew Huberman And let's leave aside monkfruit, Stevia, et cetera, for the time being.

Andrew Huberman 我们暂时把蒙克果、甜叶菊等放在一边。

Alan Aragon Okay.

艾伦·阿拉贡 好的。

You can pretty much simplify it by saying out of all the sweeteners that we study, whether they're the natural kind or whether they're the artificial kind, it's saccharin that is showing a lot of the adverse potential.

您可以简单地说，在我们研究的所有甜味剂中，无论它们是天然甜味剂还是人工甜味剂，糖精都表现出了很多不利的潜力。

So, for example, the negative effects on gut microbiome that have led to impaired glucose tolerance in humans over a short period of time...

例如，对肠道微生物组的负面影响导致人类在短时间内糖耐量受损......

Of course, the dose is debatable that they're flooding these humans with.

当然，他们向这些人灌输的剂量是有争议的。

But nevertheless, it's saccharin that showed these effects.

但尽管如此，糖精却表现出了这些效果。

With even body weight gain, comparing saccharin, sucralose, and I believe it could have been one of the others, aspartame, for the saccharin group, apparently maybe appetite was dysregulated, and actually gained weight.

即使体重增加，比较糖精、三氯蔗糖，我相信它可能是其他糖精之一，阿斯巴甜，对于糖精组来说，显然可能是食欲失调，实际上体重增加了。

Alan Aragon And so, there is something about saccharin that is not great as far as the range of low-calorie sweeteners go.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）因此，就低热量甜味剂的范围而言，糖精有些东西并不是很好。

But thankfully, saccharin is almost commercially extinct.

但值得庆幸的是，糖精在商业上几乎绝迹。

It's hard to find saccharin unless you go to a Denny's, or some sort of greasy spoon place and you get those little pink packets.

很难找到糖精，除非你去丹尼店或某种油腻的勺子店，然后你会得到那些粉红色的小包装。

So, now we've got this other range of low-calorie sweeteners to choose from, and it's a little bit of a mystery of which of these low-calorie sweeteners has the best health and body comp proposition to it.

所以，现在我们有其他系列的低热量甜味剂可供选择，但这些低热量甜味剂中哪一种具有最好的健康和身体成分，这有点神秘。

But they're all pretty much in the same boat.

但他们几乎都在同一条船上。

You can find a bunch of good stuff with Stevia.

您可以通过甜叶菊找到很多好东西。

Like the dirt on artificial sweeteners, you can find a bunch of potential dirt on aspartame.

就像人造甜味剂上的污垢一样，您也可以在阿斯巴甜上找到一堆潜在的污垢。

You can find a bunch of potential dirt on sucralose.

您可以在三氯蔗糖上发现一堆潜在的污垢。

Stevia, it's a little bit harder to.

甜叶菊，有点难。

Andrew Huberman Maybe even some benefits of stevia.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）也许甜叶菊还有一些好处。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman Right?

安德鲁·休伯曼 对吗？

Alan Aragon Yes, benefits too.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）是的，也有好处。

Andrew Huberman Improved glucose tolerance and things of that sort.

安德鲁·胡伯曼 (Andrew Huberman) 改善了葡萄糖耐量等。

So, I'm not afraid of Stevia.

所以，我不怕甜叶菊。

Alan Aragon Yes.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Andrew Huberman I always called it 'STEE-vee-uh', but now it's 'STEV-ee-uh.'

Andrew Huberman 我一直称其为“STEE-vee-uh”，但现在它是“STEV-ee-uh”。

Alan Aragon That's me.

艾伦·阿拉贡 这就是我。

'STEV-ee-uh' is a me thing.

“STEV-ee-uh”是我的事。

Andrew Huberman Okay.

安德鲁·休伯曼 好的。

So, I'll call it 'STEV-ee-uh' for this conversation.

因此，我将本次对话称为“STEV-ee-uh”。

Alan Aragon Thank you.

艾伦·阿拉贡 谢谢。

Andrew Huberman So, tomato, tomato.

安德鲁·休伯曼 所以，番茄，番茄。

I've heard it's potentially good for us.

我听说这对我们可能有好处。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman No good evidence that it's bad for us.

安德鲁·休伯曼：没有充分的证据表明这对我们有害。

Alan Aragon Right.

艾伦·阿拉贡 对。

Andrew Huberman So, if you don't mind the taste, and I happen to like the taste, Stevia seems like a perfectly fine thing to include in one's diet.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）所以，如果你不介意它的味道，而我恰好喜欢它的味道，那么甜叶菊似乎是一个非常适合包含在饮食中的东西。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

I tend to be amenable to all artificial sweeteners, honestly, even aspartame.

老实说，我倾向于接受所有人造甜味剂，甚至是阿斯巴甜。

The sheer amounts that you would have to consume of these things, even hypothetically, to incur negative health outcomes are just absurd amounts.

你必须消耗这些东西的绝对数量，即使是假设的，也会产生负面的健康结果，这只是荒谬的数量。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon It's probably more dangerous to step outside and breathe in the LA air than engage in some aspartame or sucralose on a regular basis, that one or two cans a day.

艾伦·阿拉贡 (Alan Aragon) 走出去呼吸洛杉矶的空气可能比定期喝一些阿斯巴甜或三氯蔗糖（每天一两罐）更危险。

Andrew Huberman Certainly now.

安德鲁·胡伯曼 当然是现在。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon I don't think that can affect people in the course of a lifetime.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon） 我认为这不会影响人们的一生。

Andrew Huberman Thank you for that clarification.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）感谢您的澄清。

Alan Aragon Very hard to study though.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）虽然学习非常努力。

It's not like you can find out definitively.

这不是你能确定地查出来的。

Andrew Huberman Right.

安德鲁·休伯曼 对。

Andrew Huberman Although my read of the literature, of people that drink artificially sweetened soda or stevia sweetened soda as an augment to their efforts to consume fewer than needed calories per day in order to lose body weight, body fat in particular, is that diet sodas can actually be a great assistance to people.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）虽然我读到的文献显示，人们喝人工加糖苏打水或甜叶菊加糖苏打水，以减少每天消耗的热量，以减轻体重，特别是身体脂肪，但无糖苏打水实际上对人们有很大帮助。

Alan Aragon Yes.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Andrew Huberman And I went back and forth on this literature because I thought, "No, water would be better." But they compared water, two liters a day or a liter or more per day of diet soda, and it seems like it's a pretty good weight loss tool for people that would otherwise be drinking soda, or would otherwise be drinking just water, which really surprised me.

Andrew Huberman 我反复研究这些文献，因为我想，“不，水会更好。”但他们比较了水、每天两升或每天一升或更多的无糖汽水，对于那些原本喝汽水或只喝水的人来说，这似乎是一个相当好的减肥工具，这真的让我感到惊讶。

I'd love to say, "Water's the best," but for weight loss, maybe diet sodas actually provide an important role for people.

我很想说，“水是最好的”，但对于减肥来说，也许无糖汽水实际上为人们提供了重要的作用。

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

That was an interesting finding.

这是一个有趣的发现。

I do think that most, if not all of the controlled intervention trials show positive effects of artificially sweetened or low-calorie sweetened beverages on weight loss and all of the metabolic consequences of what happens with weight loss, and they're all positive.

我确实认为，大多数（如果不是全部）对照干预试验都显示了人工甜味剂或低热量甜味饮料对减肥以及减肥过程中发生的所有代谢后果的积极影响，而且它们都是积极的。

There's some observational literature that casts some doubt on whether diet sodas are a good thing or not, but then we have the issue of, "reverse causality," where people who are in poor health are sort of seeking out these diet sodas rather than the diet sodas causing the poor health.

有一些观察性文献对无糖汽水是否是一件好事提出了一些质疑，但我们遇到了“反向因果关系”的问题，即健康状况不佳的人会寻找这些无糖汽水，而不是导致健康状况不佳的无糖汽水。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon So, on balance, artificially sweetened beverages tend to be a net positive for health.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）因此，总的来说，人工甜味剂饮料往往对健康有净积极作用。

But I know that a lot of people have a lot of issues with that because people have just sort of this natural hippie streak within them that would want to preach only water.

但我知道很多人对此有很多问题，因为人们内心有一种天生的嬉皮士倾向，只想宣扬水。

And you know what?

你知道吗？

I think it's a good idea to practice drinking plain water to get that experience of it being a positive thing.

我认为练习喝白开水是个好主意，以获得积极的体验。

And I encourage it, but sort of the vilifying of artificially sweetened beverages is just not necessarily founded in especially the controlled intervention literature.

我鼓励这样做，但对人工甜味剂饮料的诽谤并不一定在特别是受控干预文献中成立。

Andrew Huberman I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function.

Andrew Huberman 我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。

Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.

去年，在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我成为了 Function 成员。

Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health.

Function 提供 100 多项高级实验室测试，为您提供整个身体健康状况的关键快照。

This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more.

此快照为您提供有关心脏健康、激素健康、免疫功能、营养水平等方面的见解。

They've also recently added tests for toxins such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics, and tests for PFASs or forever chemicals.

他们最近还增加了毒素测试，例如有害塑料中的 BPA 暴露，以及 PFAS 或永久化学物质的测试。

Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are experts in the relevant areas.

Function 不仅提供对您的身心健康至关重要的 100 多种生物标志物的测试，还分析这些结果并提供相关领域专家顶级医生的见解。

Andrew Huberman For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood.

例如，安德鲁·胡伯曼 (Andrew Huberman) 在我的第一个 Function 测试中发现，我的血液中汞含量升高。

Function not only helped me detect that but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-Acetyl Cysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification.

功能不仅帮助我检测到这一点，还提供了如何最好地降低汞含量的见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼消费，我一直在吃大量金枪鱼​​，同时还努力多吃绿叶蔬菜并补充 NAC、N-乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒。

And I should say, by taking a second Function test, that approach worked.

我应该说，通过进行第二次功能测试，这种方法奏效了。

Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important.

全面的血液检测至关重要。

There are so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test.

有很多与您的心理和身体健康相关的事情只能通过血液检查来检测。

The problem is, blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated.

问题是，血液检测一直非常昂贵且复杂。

In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost.

相比之下，Function 的简单性和成本水平给我留下了深刻的印象。

It is very affordable.

这是非常实惠的。

As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.

因此，我决定加入他们的科学顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。

If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman.

如果您想尝试 Function，可以访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。

Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman Podcast listeners.

Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等候名单，但他们正在为 Huberman 播客听众提供早期访问服务。

Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.

同样，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。

Andrew Huberman Is there any evidence that coffee or other caffeinated drinks have a thermic effect that allows you to burn more fat?

Andrew Huberman 有没有证据表明咖啡或其他含咖啡因的饮料具有热效应，可以让您燃烧更多脂肪？

I'm a yerba mate fan, so if I drink cold brew yerba mate or hot brew yerba mate before working out, let's forget fasting, I happen to do it fasted, and then train, am I going to mobilize more body fat by ingesting a stimulant like caffeine prior to working out?

我是马黛茶粉丝，所以如果我在锻炼前喝冷泡马黛茶或热泡马黛茶，别忘了禁食，我碰巧禁食，然后训练，我会在锻炼前通过摄入咖啡因等兴奋剂来动员更多的体内脂肪吗？

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Yes.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

And yeah, it's a pretty consistent finding.

是的，这是一个非常一致的发现。

The issue is whether the amount that occurs is something meaningful, that would be durable enough over time for us to be able to say, "Hey, we can use coffee and/or caffeine as an agent to enhance fat loss." I'm not sure if we're there yet, but the literature on balance shows a modest effect, a modest advantage on fat loss with caffeinated beverages like tea and coffee.

问题是所发生的量是否有意义，随着时间的推移，这种量是否足够持久，让我们能够说，“嘿，我们可以使用咖啡和/或咖啡因作为促进减脂的剂。”我不确定我们是否已经做到了这一点，但关于平衡的文献表明，茶和咖啡等含咖啡因饮料对减肥有一定的效果和一定的优势。

Andrew Huberman Great.

安德鲁·休伯曼 太棒了。

I don't think that's discussed very often these days.

我认为现在人们不经常讨论这个问题。

That was kind of more in the '90s, but I think it's a great thing for people to hear because 90% of adults worldwide consume caffeine every single day.

这种情况在 90 年代比较多，但我认为这对人们来说是一件很棒的事情，因为全世界 90% 的成年人每天都会摄入咖啡因。

It's the most widely used drug in the world.

它是世界上使用最广泛的药物。

Alan Aragon Man, I just looked at this huge umbrella review on coffee and health effects.

艾伦·阿拉贡·曼（Alan Aragon Man），我刚刚看了这篇关于咖啡和健康影响的大型评论。

It's net positive.

这是净积极的。

I was very happy to see that.

我很高兴看到这一点。

Andrew Huberman On what sorts of metrics?

Andrew Huberman 采用什么样的指标？

Alan Aragon A range of clinical outcomes: cardiovascular health, different effects on sort of intermediate markers.

Alan Aragon 一系列临床结果：心血管健康、对中间标记物的不同影响。

Mortality, even.

甚至死亡。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon So, almost everything that we can think of that most people generally care about, coffee either has a neutral or positive effect on it, but the threshold of benefits sort of cuts off at three to four cups a day.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）所以，几乎我们能想到的大多数人普遍关心的一切，咖啡要么对它有中性或积极的影响，但好处的门槛在每天三到四杯左右。

So, much more than that, or after that threshold, then we're looking at a potential detriment.

因此，远不止于此，或者在该阈值之后，我们正在考虑潜在的损害。

Andrew Huberman I suppose the only thing is to remind people to not consume caffeine too close to bedtime, because even if you can fall asleep, it's going to disrupt the architecture of your sleep.

安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）我认为唯一的事情是提醒人们不要在睡前太接近摄入咖啡因，因为即使你可以入睡，它也会扰乱你的睡眠结构。

Alan Aragon Sure.

艾伦·阿拉贡 当然。

Alan Aragon Agreed.

艾伦·阿拉贡同意了。

Andrew Huberman But I, and I am sure so many people are so relieved, even delighted to hear that coffee and other forms of caffeine are healthy for us, maybe even pro-longevity.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）但是我，我相信很多人都松了一口气，甚至很高兴听到咖啡和其他形式的咖啡因对我们健康，甚至可能有利于长寿。

Alan Aragon Coffee and tea, yes.

艾伦·阿拉贡 咖啡和茶，是的。

Sure.

当然。

Andrew Huberman Whereas it's been debated, and it continues to be debated whether alcohol is good or bad for longevity.

安德鲁·休伯曼 (Andrew Huberman) 然而，酒精对于长寿到底是好还是坏一直存在争议，并且仍在继续争论。

Last week, another study was saying that champagne was good for longevity, I think it was, but plenty of studies are recently showing that alcohol increases cancer risk so much that the federal government now is talking about putting this on the label of any alcohol-containing drink.

上周，另一项研究称香槟有益于长寿，我认为确实如此，但最近大量研究表明酒精会大大增加癌症风险，以至于联邦政府现在正在讨论将其添加到任何含酒精饮料的标签上。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon I have an issue with that.

艾伦·阿拉贡 我对此有疑问。

Andrew Huberman Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼 是的。

About putting that on the label?

把它写在标签上？

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Andrew Huberman Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼 是的。

Please share.

请分享。

Alan Aragon So, we can't lump alcoholic beverages into this single bucket.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）因此，我们不能将酒精饮料集中到一个桶中。

The literature on red wine specifically, man, you would be hard-pressed to find carcinogenic effects from red wine, either epidemiologically, or interventionally, and even down to the mechanistic in vitro stuff, like tumorigenesis, anything like that.

特别是关于红酒的文献，伙计，你很难发现红酒的致癌作用，无论是流行病学上的还是干预性的，甚至是体外机制的东西，比如肿瘤发生，类似的东西。

It actually has anti-cancer effects.

它实际上具有抗癌作用。

And even the brain-shrinking threat of alcohol intake, red wine consumers actually, in at least one controlled trial, showed improvements in neuropsychological tests.

即使酒精摄入会导致大脑萎缩，但实际上，在至少一项对照试验中，红酒消费者的神经心理学测试也有所改善。

And so I don't think we can say alcohol as a group.

所以我认为我们不能把酒精作为一个整体来讨论。

Alan Aragon We have to sort of look at the individual drinks, because I'm sure there are differences between red wine versus some other alcoholic beverage.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）：我们必须对每种饮料进行分类，因为我确信红酒与其他酒精饮料之间存在差异。

But people study the crap out of red wine, and there's almost nothing but good stuff that comes out of the red wine literature.

但人们研究红酒中的垃圾，而红酒文献中几乎除了好东西之外什么也没有。

Who knows how biased it might be, commercially or otherwise?

谁知道它在商业或其他方面可能有多大偏见？

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon But that's another thing.

艾伦·阿拉贡 但这是另一回事。

I don't like to dismiss studies based on funding source, but the red wine literature is almost all positive.

我不想根据资金来源而驳回研究，但红酒文献几乎都是积极的。

Andrew Huberman I feel like I have to push on this a little bit.

安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）我觉得我必须推动这一点。

Assuming everything about those studies is intact and not biased, et cetera, I do think that when people are consuming alcohol and thinking about the potential longevity effects of red wine that there are some questions that come to mind.

假设这些研究的所有内容都完好无损且没有偏见等等，我确实认为当人们饮酒并思考红酒对长寿的潜在影响时，会想到一些问题。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Okay.

艾伦·阿拉贡 好的。

Andrew Huberman First of all, what is the caloric trade-off?

Andrew Huberman 首先，什么是热量权衡？

So, if you're drinking a glass of wine, you're consuming calories.

所以，如果你喝一杯酒，你就会消耗卡路里。

Perhaps not a problem?

也许不是问题？

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman Perhaps that's taking up room for quality nutrients that could come from other sources.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）也许这占用了其他来源的优质营养物质的空间。

I have a theory, which is that the controversies around the alcohol literature and longevity, in my mind, could boil down to something as simple as sleep disruption.

我有一个理论，在我看来，围绕酒精文献和长寿的争议可以归结为像睡眠中断这样简单的问题。

For instance, drinkers have more inflammation.

例如，饮酒者的炎症更严重。

But in those particular studies, perhaps, I'm speculating here, they are drinking with dinner, and we know that disrupts sleep architecture, reduces REM sleep, deep sleep.

但在那些特定的研究中，也许，我在这里推测，他们在晚餐时喝酒，我们知道这会扰乱睡眠结构，减少快速眼动睡眠和深度睡眠。

This has just been shown over and over again.

这一点刚刚被一次又一次地展示过。

And chronically, over time, especially on a backdrop of a high-stress lifestyle, perhaps leads to more systemic inflammation and poorer health outcomes.

长期来看，随着时间的推移，尤其是在高压力生活方式的背景下，可能会导致更多的全身炎症和更差的健康结果。

Andrew Huberman In another culture, maybe in Sardinia or something, or in one of these, dare I say, blue zones, people perhaps are eating, and drinking, and living longer, and have lower inflammation, because they might drink just as close to sleep, but they have a smoother, lower stress entrance into the next day.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）在另一种文化中，也许在撒丁岛或其他地方，或者在其中一个，我敢说，蓝色区域，人们可能会吃、喝、活得更长，并且炎症程度较低，因为他们可能会在睡前喝酒，但他们可以更顺利、更轻松地进入第二天。

And so, the disruption of sleep might not be a problem.

因此，睡眠中断可能不是问题。

There's an afternoon nap in many of those cultures.

在许多这样的文化中都有午睡。

So, when I look at sleep as kind of the foundation of mental health and physical health, which it's clear that it's at least one of the layers of the foundation, I then wonder whether or not the alcohol studies can be evaluated just strictly on the basis of the measures that are being taken.

因此，当我将睡眠视为心理健康和身体健康的基础时（很明显，它至少是基础的一层），我想知道是否可以严格根据正在采取的措施来评估酒精研究。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman And that if we start to think about the context in which alcohol consumption is occurring, social context, sleep hours, stress and lifestyle, genetic predisposition to cancers, et cetera, high-processed food, and on and on, I wonder whether or not some of this is going to shake out in the noise, as we say.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）如果我们开始思考饮酒发生的背景、社会背景、睡眠时间、压力和生活方式、癌症遗传倾向等、高加工食品等等，我想知道其中一些是否会像我们所说的那样在噪音中消失。

Alan Aragon I need to qualify...

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）我需要获得资格......

I agree with all of that.

我同意所有这些。

And here's the thing, like my statements on alcohol mainly had to do with red wine and cancer.

事情是这样的，就像我关于酒精的陈述主要与红酒和癌症有关。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon So, if we look at what would be considered a moderate amount of drinking, one to two glasses a day for little people, and then let's say, two to three glasses a day for larger people.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon） 那么，如果我们看看什么才被认为是适量的饮酒量，小个子的人每天喝一到两杯，然后让我们说，大的人每天喝两到三杯。

That is sort of the moderation models for those two.

这就是这两者的调节模型。

Regardless of whether it's red wine or not, or something else, there is a degree of disinhibition that occurs with drinking, that can make you say, "Ah, screw it," and potentially have you just wipe out the entire pasta plate, for example.

不管是红酒还是其他酒，饮酒时都会出现一定程度的抑制解除，这会让你说，“啊，管它的”，例如，可能会让你把整个意大利面盘子都擦掉。

And so, there's the disinhibition piece, and there's also the inherent calories piece, to where, I don't know a whole lot of guys who I am aspiring to become like body comp-wise, who are regular, significant drinkers.

因此，有去抑制部分，也有固有卡路里部分，我不知道很多我渴望成为身体健康的人，他们是经常大量饮酒的人。

Most of them barely drink.

他们中的大多数人几乎不喝酒。

Okay, so that's sort of the observational side of things.

好的，这就是事物的观察方面。

Alan Aragon And then there's the addiction side of things, where you read the stats on the percentage of the general population that has some degree of alcohol use disorder.

艾伦·阿拉贡 (Alan Aragon) 然后是成瘾方面，您可以阅读有关患有某种程度的酒精使用障碍的总人口百分比的统计数据。

It's a staggering percent: 10%.

这是一个惊人的百分比：10%。

So, in a room of 10 people, chances are one of them is going to have alcohol use disorder.

因此，在一个有 10 个人的房间里，很可能其中一人患有酒精使用障碍。

That's gnarly.

那太粗糙了。

Andrew Huberman Well, it's the easiest addiction to mask, because alcohol is so freely available.

安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：嗯，这是最容易上瘾的面具，因为酒精很容易获得。

It's everywhere, and people don't-

它无处不在，但人们却没有——

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon It's glamorized.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon） 它被迷住了。

Andrew Huberman Alcohol intake, at least until recently...

安德鲁·胡伯曼 (Andrew Huberman) 酒精摄入量，至少直到最近......

Things are changing.

事情正在发生变化。

It's the one drug, because alcohol is a drug, then again, caffeine's a drug...

这是唯一的药物，因为酒精是一种药物，那么咖啡因也是一种药物......

It's the one drug that if you don't consume it as an adult, people often are put off by that.

这是一种如果成年后不服用的药物，人们往往会因此而推迟服用。

Alan Aragon Do you get shamed?

艾伦·阿拉贡 你感到羞耻吗？

Andrew Huberman Right?

安德鲁·休伯曼 对吗？

They say, "Hey, what's wrong with you?" kind of thing.

他们说：“嘿，你怎么了？”之类的事情。

Or "I thought real men drink," or something like that.

或者“我以为真正的男人会喝酒”，或者类似的话。

So, I quit drinking a long time ago, and I didn't have alcohol use disorder, but I didn't like it, because I wouldn't sleep well, and I like to train in the morning.

所以，我很早就戒酒了，我也没有酒精使用障碍，但是我不喜欢这样，因为我会睡不好，而且我喜欢早上训练。

So, when people would say, "You don't drink, what's wrong with you?" I would say, "No, I train in the morning while you're sleeping, and then let's check in at..." In my 30s, I was kind of cocky, so at meetings, they'd say, "Oh, you're going home at 9:00 PM on the first night?" I'd say, "Yeah, but let's check in on Wednesday of this five-day meeting, let's look at how you're hanging in there versus how I'm hanging in there."

所以，当人们说：“你不喝酒，你有什么问题吗？”我会说，“不，我早上在你睡觉的时候训练，然后我们去……”在我 30 多岁的时候，我有点骄傲，所以在会议上，他们会说，“哦，你第一晚晚上 9:00 回家？”我会说，“是的，但是让我们在周三查看这个为期五天的会议，让我们看看你的坚持程度与我的坚持程度。”

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman And so I was always interested in the long arc of things.

安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）所以我总是对事物的长弧感兴趣。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman How I could maintain eight or nine out of 10 performance, maybe even 10 out of 10 performance, day after day.

Andrew Huberman 我如何能够日复一日地保持十分之八或九的表现，甚至可能十分之十的表现。

Not necessarily a healthy mentality, but this is what happens if you have my mentality, and I think it's typical of many people.

不一定是健康的心态，但如果你有我的心态，就会发生这种情况，我认为这是很多人的典型情况。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman So, for me, drinking was a hindrance to life performance.

安德鲁·胡伯曼 所以，对我来说，饮酒是生活表现的障碍。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman I think for many people, alcohol is the way that they mesh with the people around them, and I respect the fact that that exists.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）我认为对很多人来说，酒精是他们与周围的人交往的方式，我尊重这种存在的事实。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman That it's hard to be the odd person out.

Andrew Huberman 很难成为一个奇怪的人。

It can be socially isolating, and social connection is important.

它可能会导致社交孤立，但社交联系很重要。

Alan Aragon Here's what I found with quitting alcohol, a couple of funny things.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）这是我在戒酒过程中发现的一些有趣的事情。

Number one, I did get shamed.

第一，我确实感到羞耻。

I was in the Dominican Republic, at the dinner table, and I like pina coladas.

我在多米尼加共和国，在餐桌上，我喜欢冰镇果汁朗姆酒。

Virgin pina coladas.

初榨冰镇果汁朗姆酒。

So, I ordered a virgin pina colada, and the server just cracked up, and laughed at me, and made fun of me for doing a virgin drink.

所以，我点了一杯初榨果汁朗姆酒，服务员就笑了，嘲笑我，取笑我做了一杯初榨饮料。

So, I actually have gotten shamed for ordering a virgin pina colada.

所以，我实际上因为点了一杯初榨冰镇果汁朗姆酒而感到羞愧。

But one of the reasons that I was afraid to quit is because I thought that events would lose their fun.

但我害怕退出的原因之一是因为我认为活动会失去乐趣。

I felt like I would sort of lose my ability to be social, and have fun, and have the same degree of...

我觉得我会失去社交、享受乐趣的能力，以及同样程度的……

It's a weird thing.

这是一件很奇怪的事情。

You don't know until you quit drinking that things are just as fun.

直到你戒酒之后，你才会知道事情原来也同样有趣。

Obviously, you're lucid.

显然，你是清醒的。

Alan Aragon And you take a lot more in, and you can enjoy everything moment-to-moment.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon），你会吸收更多，你可以时时刻刻享受一切。

There are no lost patches of time.

没有丢失的时间片段。

And the interesting and positive thing about quitting drinking for me, and I haven't drank not one drink in almost seven years now, come August, is that it taught me how to sit in my feelings, and cope with the stress, and come up with solutions.

对我来说，戒酒的有趣和积极的事情是，到了八月，我已经近七年没有喝过一杯酒了，它教会了我如何静观自己的感受，应对压力，并想出解决方案。

Whereas prior to that, "Oh, I know the solution.

而在此之前，“哦，我知道解决方案。

Put the alcohol Band-Aid on it." But I think that that impairs character building.

把酒精创可贴贴在上面。”但我认为这会损害品格建设。

It impairs problem-solving capabilities.

它会削弱解决问题的能力。

It impairs coping capabilities, and I think those are super important for just basically being an adult.

它会损害应对能力，我认为这些对于基本上成为一个成年人来说非常重要。

Alan Aragon And so those were kind of the hidden benefits that I experienced from quitting alcohol, on top of having better training sessions, having better training recovery, consuming almost a thousand calories less per day, improvements in body composition, and just mental health.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）所以，这些都是我从戒酒中体验到的隐性好处，除了有更好的训练课程、更好的训练恢复、每天少消耗近千卡路里、改善身体成分以及心理健康之外。

All departments of life just kicked up and improved after I quit drinking.

我戒酒后，生活的各个方面都开始改善。

But see, I was one of those one in 10 who got into the drinking routine.

但是你看，我是那些养成喝酒习惯的十分之一的人之一。

And I'm one of those guys, if I like something, I'll have it every day.

我就是其中之一，如果我喜欢某样东西，我就会每天都拥有它。

I'll do it every day.

我每天都会这样做。

I'm probably going to have either coffee and/or eggs every day for the rest of my life.

我可能会在余生中每天都喝咖啡和/或鸡蛋。

Same thing happened with alcohol.

酒精也发生了同样的情况。

But the thing with alcohol is that you have to try to maintain the buzz, which increases overtime because of tolerance, as you know.

但酒精的问题是你必须努力保持兴奋状态，正如你所知，这会因为耐受性而增加加班时间。

So that was the issue, with me and alcohol.

这就是我和酒精的问题。

Andrew Huberman Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼 是的。

Andrew Huberman Well, thanks for sharing that.

安德鲁·胡伯曼 好的，谢谢你的分享。

Again, we're not here to ram anything down anyone's throat.

再说一遍，我们不是来强行强行灌输任何人的。

But I think there are many-

但我认为有很多——

Alan Aragon And I think that many people can do alcohol in moderation.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon） 我认为很多人都可以适量饮酒。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon I just was one of them who was much better off quitting.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）我就是其中之一，戒烟会更好。

Andrew Huberman Great.

安德鲁·休伯曼 太棒了。

Well, I appreciate you sharing that, very much so.

嗯，我非常感谢你分享这一点。

Alan Aragon Sure.

艾伦·阿拉贡 当然。

Andrew Huberman Let's talk about seed oils.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）让我们来谈谈种子油。

The dreaded seed oil debate.

可怕的种子油争论。

Should we fear them or not fear them?

我们应该害怕他们还是不害怕他们？

Let's assume somebody is going to maintain calories.

让我们假设有人要维持卡路里摄入量。

They're not adding seed oils as a source of additional calories above what they would normally be taking in.

他们不会添加种子油作为额外卡路里的来源，超出他们通常摄入的热量。

But let's say they have the choice.

但假设他们有选择。

They can consume a seed oil like canola oil or soybean oil, or they can consume olive oil in place of it.

他们可以食用菜籽油或大豆油等种子油，也可以食用橄榄油来代替。

And let's just compare, which one is better, if either?

我们来比较一下，哪个更好？

And is there anything inherently bad about seed oils?

种子油有什么本质上的坏处吗？

And I want to make sure that we talk about the processing, because people will say, "Ah, the seed oils aren't bad if they come from a quality source." But most of the seed oils are through this high pressure, high temperature refinement process, and that's the problem.

我想确保我们谈论加工过程，因为人们会说，“啊，如果种子油来自优质来源，那么它们也不错。”但大多数种子油都是经过这种高压、高温精炼过程的，这就是问题所在。

So, what's the deal with seed oils?

那么，种子油有什么用呢？

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Okay.

艾伦·阿拉贡 好的。

The big picture is that people over-vilify seed oils.

总体情况是人们过度诋毁种子油。

One side over-vilifies seed oils, just like the other side over-vilifies, let's say, your standard land animal fats, like beef tallow, butter, lard.

一方过度诋毁种子油，就像另一方过度诋毁标准陆地动物脂肪，如牛脂、黄油、猪油。

But when you compare those two, like seed oils versus the butter, beef tallow, lard, and you compare the evidence base of those two things, you can find more dirt as far as adverse health outcomes from the land animal fats compared to the seed oils.

但是，当你比较这两者时，例如种子油与黄油、牛脂、猪油，并且比较这两种物质的证据基础，你会发现与种子油相比，陆地动物脂肪对健康产生的不利影响更多。

And that is the reality of the matter.

这就是事情的真相。

It's really weird that seed oils are being vilified right now, because that's not the scientific consensus.

种子油现在遭到诽谤，这真的很奇怪，因为这不是科学共识。

People who have their nose in the literature are just kind of scratching their heads at the whole seed oil scare thing.

那些对文献感兴趣的人只是对种子油的恐慌感到摸不着头脑。

Alan Aragon And there are some people on the fringe who laser in on their philosophies and ideologies about seed oils.

艾伦·阿拉贡 (Alan Aragon) 还有一些处于边缘的人，他们对种子油的哲学和意识形态进行了激光攻击。

But then all you need to do is ask a short set of questions.

但随后您所需要做的就是提出一系列简短的问题。

Okay.

好的。

And you specified the seed oils in the question, which is great.

您在问题中指定了种子油，这很好。

You're ahead of everybody else.

你领先于其他人。

So, what seed oil are we talking about?

那么，我们所说的种子油是什么？

What kind of dosage are we talking about?

我们所说的剂量是多少？

And what health outcome are you concerned with?

您关心什么健康结果？

And then what trial do you find most compelling that supports your fear of the seed oil?

那么，您认为哪项试验最有说服力，足以支持您对种子油的恐惧呢？

And so, everybody, or around nine out of ten people, immediately will say, "Ah, okay, you want to know what seed oil?

因此，每个人，或者大约十分之九的人，都会立即说：“啊，好吧，你想知道什么种子油吗？

Canola oil." Okay, great.

菜籽油。”好的，太好了。

Let's look at the canola oil literature.

让我们看一下菜籽油文献。

And one of the hardest things to do is find dirt on canola oil amidst all of the positive effects.

最难做的事情之一就是在菜籽油的所有积极作用中找到污垢。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon It's in almost every trial of canola oil.

艾伦·阿拉贡 (Alan Aragon) 几乎在每次菜籽油试验中都会出现这种情况。

There is even a meta-analysis comparing directly the effect of canola oil versus olive oil on blood lipid profile.

甚至有一项荟萃分析直接比较菜籽油与橄榄油对血脂的影响。

And maybe, unsurprisingly to some, but surprisingly to most, canola oil outperforms olive oil for improving blood lipids, in the sense of lowering LDL cholesterol.

也许，对某些人来说并不奇怪，但对大多数人来说却令人惊讶的是，菜籽油在改善血脂（降低低密度脂蛋白胆固醇）方面优于橄榄油。

Andrew Huberman That's surprising to me, because I assumed that olive oil can do no wrong.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）这让我感到惊讶，因为我认为橄榄油不会有错。

Alan Aragon You know what?

艾伦·阿拉贡 你知道吗？

I was taken aback by that, too.

我也被这一幕吓了一跳。

I would have been just fine with seeing there's no damn difference, one of these anti-climactic results.

如果看到没有什么该死的差异，我会很高兴，这是这些反高潮的结果之一。

But when you take a look at canola oil's composition, it has kind of an extraordinarily high proportion of omega-3 fatty acids compared to olive oil, and compared to the rest of the seed oils, for that matter.

但当你观察菜籽油的成分时，会发现与橄榄油以及其他种子油相比，它的 omega-3 脂肪酸比例异常高。

Andrew Huberman Omega-3?

安德鲁·休伯曼 Omega-3？

I thought it was high in omega-6.

我认为它的 omega-6 含量很高。

Alan Aragon It does contain omega-6.

Alan Aragon 它确实含有 omega-6。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon And that is the predominant fatty acid in canola.

Alan Aragon 这是双低油菜籽中的主要脂肪酸。

But it has a high omega-3 content as well.

但它的 omega-3 含量也很高。

It has a high proportion of omega-3.

它含有高比例的omega-3。

I don't know the exact proportion of omega-3, but what makes canola kind of special, as far as the vegetable oils go, is its omega-3 content.

我不知道 omega-3 的确切比例，但就植物油而言，菜籽油的特殊之处在于它的 omega-3 含量。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman Wow.

安德鲁·休伯曼 哇。

Okay.

好的。

That's going to surprise a number of people, including me.

这会让很多人感到惊讶，包括我。

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman My sense is that any ill effects to come from seed oils are because of who seed oils hang out with.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）我的感觉是，种子油带来的任何不良影响都是因为种子油与谁在一起。

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Andrew Huberman Right?

安德鲁·休伯曼 对吗？

This is sort of the old, if you're old enough like me to remember, I'm 49, turning 50 in September, so I'm not quite 53, but we're of the same generation, and there was this-

这有点老了，如果你像我一样年纪大的话还记得的话，我今年 49 岁，九月份就满 50 岁了，所以我还不到 53 岁，但我们是同一代人，而且有这样的——

Alan Aragon We grew up without the internet.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon） 我们是在没有互联网的情况下长大的。

Andrew Huberman Right.

安德鲁·休伯曼 对。

Well, there was a discussion around cannabis, for instance.

嗯，例如，有关于大麻的讨论。

We've done several episodes about it.

我们已经制作了几集相关内容。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman We didn't paint it as good or bad, although I do believe that young people, especially young males, smoking high THC cannabis can predispose to psychosis.

Andrew Huberman：我们并没有将其描述为好或坏，尽管我确实相信年轻人，尤其是年轻男性，吸食高 THC 大麻可能会导致精神病。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman There is a bunch of debate around this.

安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）围绕这个问题存在很多争论。

But back in the day, it was, "If you use cannabis, soon you'll be using crack cocaine." That was kind of like the argument, right?

但在过去，“如果你使用大麻，很快你就会使用强效可卡因。”这有点像争论，对吧？

And over time, people realized that cannabis has its own potential benefits, and its own potential risks.

随着时间的推移，人们意识到大麻有其潜在的好处，也有其潜在的风险。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman Right?

安德鲁·休伯曼 对吗？

Depending on a number of things.

取决于很多事情。

It seems that people who consume a lot of seed oils, consume them in conjunction with a lot of starches, and perhaps with added sugars as well.

似乎食用大量种子油的人会同时食用大量淀粉，也许还添加糖。

And when you lump those together, you end up with a pro-inflammatory, often hypercaloric set of conditions, and people aren't getting enough quality protein.

当你把这些因素放在一起时，你最终会出现促炎、通常是高热量的情况，而且人们无法获得足够的优质蛋白质。

And then we know what that picture looks like.

然后我们就知道那张照片是什么样子了。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman It looks like the United States of America.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）看起来像美利坚合众国。

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Andrew Huberman Right?

安德鲁·休伯曼 对吗？

Or most of the United States of America.

或者美利坚合众国的大部分地区。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman And so I do think that there's something about who olive oil, and grass-fed butter hang out with, that has the opposite effect.

安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）所以我确实认为橄榄油和草饲黄油与谁在一起会产生相反的效果。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman People who go, "Oh, this is really high-quality olive oil," generally in my mind, are the sort of people who are thinking about the quality of the salad ingredients.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：在我看来，那些会说“哦，这确实是高品质橄榄油”的人通常是考虑沙拉原料质量的人。

They're thinking about the sourdough bread, as opposed to maybe a more refined sugar containing bread.

他们正在考虑酵母面包，而不是更精制的含糖面包。

And the people who talk about grass-fed butter are thinking about the quality of the meat sources, and they're not eating other protein sources that are laden with other preservatives.

谈论草饲黄油的人考虑的是肉类来源的质量，他们没有吃富含其他防腐剂的其他蛋白质来源。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman So, to me, I think a lot of this, "seed oil debate," will be resolved when we start pulling apart the individual components.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）所以，对我来说，我认为当我们开始分解各个组成部分时，很多“种子油争论”都会得到解决。

Alan Aragon Sure.

艾伦·阿拉贡 当然。

They're riding in the wrong vehicle.

他们坐错车了。

Andrew Huberman Right.

安德鲁·休伯曼 对。

And I think that from a cost perspective...

我认为从成本角度来看......

This hadn't occurred to me until I started voicing a little bit of this online, in which case you learn a lot, quickly.

直到我开始在网上发表一些言论之前，我并没有想到这一点，在这种情况下，你很快就能学到很多东西。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman And what I learned was that there were a number of people who said, "Yeah, I'm hearing all this great stuff about grass-fed butter and olive oil," but there are people for whom the cost margins are just too high to consume all organic or olive oil.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）我了解到，有很多人说，“是的，我听到了所有关于草饲黄油和橄榄油的好东西”，但有些人的成本利润太高，无法消费所有有机或橄榄油。

And you have to listen to that, and say, "Okay, well, for people needing to feed an entire family, perhaps some of these other fat sources are more affordable, and therefore, what are the real health risks with those?"

你必须听听这个，然后说：“好吧，对于需要养活整个家庭的人来说，也许其他一些脂肪来源更便宜，因此，这些真正的健康风险是什么？”

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman So, anyway, I did a bit of editorializing there, but I have a feeling some of this is going to shake out in the fine parsing of these different diets.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）所以，无论如何，我在那里做了一些社论，但我有一种感觉，其中一些内容将在这些不同饮食的精细解析中得到体现。

Alan Aragon I think people oversimplify it.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon） 我认为人们过于简单化了。

What people do with seed oils, is what people do with dairy.

人们对种子油的处理方式，就是人们对乳制品的处理方式。

They say 'dairy' as if it's some monolithic thing.

他们说“乳制品”就好像它是某种整体的东西一样。

With dairy, you've got the hard cheeses.

对于乳制品，你会得到硬奶酪。

You've got butter.

你有黄油。

You've got yogurt.

你有酸奶。

You've got milk of varying fat levels.

你有不同脂肪含量的牛奶。

You're kind of hard pressed to find negative stuff on yogurt.

你很难在酸奶中找到负面的东西。

You'd be kind of hard pressed actually to find negative stuff on hard cheeses.

事实上，你很难在硬奶酪上找到负面的东西。

Of all the range of dairy foods, butter is the one that you can find the dirt on.

在所有乳制品中，黄油是最容易发现污垢的一种。

It's a similar story with seed oils.

种子油的情况也类似。

Try to find some negative stuff on flaxseed, chia seed, sesame seed.

尝试在亚麻籽、奇亚籽、芝麻中寻找一些负面的东西。

You can't.

你不能。

Yeah, if you dig hard enough you can.

是的，只要你足够努力，就可以。

Try to find some negative stuff on canola.

尝试在油菜籽中找出一些负面的东西。

It's very tough, too.

这也非常艰难。

Even things like soybean oil and corn oil.

甚至像大豆油和玉米油之类的东西。

You can look at the literature, and it doesn't paint this sinister picture either.

你可以看看文献，它也没有描绘出这种险恶的景象。

Alan Aragon And so I think people are missing the forest for the trees in general, when they're focused on, honestly, the cooking oils.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）所以我认为，老实说，当人们关注食用油时，他们往往只见树木不见森林。

You shouldn't be drowning or deep-frying your stuff on a regular basis anyway.

无论如何，你不应该经常淹没或油炸你的东西。

So, yeah, and beyond that, when you look at the effects of seed oil that are examined in the literature for various outcomes, everything from the intermediate outcomes like biomarker effects, all the way to the “hard endpoints," like mortality, heart attack, cardiac events, and heart disease.

所以，是的，除此之外，当你观察文献中研究的种子油对各种结果的影响时，从生物标志物效应等中间结果，一直到死亡率、心脏病发作、心脏事件和心脏病等“硬终点”。

So, the hard endpoints, as well as the intermediate or soft endpoints, they're all superior with the seed oils, compared to butter, lard, beef tallow, on the whole.

因此，总体而言，与黄油、猪油、牛脂相比，种子油的硬端点以及中间或软端点都更优越。

Alan Aragon So, there is a severe misunderstanding, and falsely founded scaremongering with respect to seed oils, to the point where I just think it's incredibly silly.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）因此，对于种子油存在严重的误解和虚假的危言耸听，以至于我认为这是非常愚蠢的。

People just have to get ahold of themselves and focus on the overall quality of the diet and not really get into these absolute death matches over what oils they use to cook their foods.

人们只需要控制住自己，关注饮食的整体质量，而不是真正陷入这些绝对的死亡竞赛，因为他们用什么油来烹饪食物。

I am a huge extra virgin olive oil fan.

我是特级初榨橄榄油的超级粉丝。

That is my go-to.

这是我的首选。

That's what I love.

这就是我所爱的。

Honestly, I could do shots of the stuff.

老实说，我可以拍摄这些东西。

I love it that much.

我非常喜欢它。

Andrew Huberman It's delicious.

安德鲁·休伯曼 真好吃。

Yeah.

是的。

Alan Aragon And I love sesame oil.

艾伦·阿拉贡 我喜欢芝麻油。

Sesame is a seed oil.

芝麻是一种种子油。

Sesame oil has been consumed by very healthy populations throughout Asia for the last 5,000 years.

过去 5000 年来，亚洲各地非常健康的人群一直食用芝麻油。

And so I don't necessarily like canola oil, as far as sort of the stickiness and the oddness about it, but I'll still acknowledge that the literature shows overwhelmingly positive stuff about it in the majority of trials.

因此，就其粘性和奇怪性而言，我不一定喜欢菜籽油，但我仍然承认，文献在大多数试验中显示了关于它的压倒性积极的东西。

But I prefer olive oil.

但我更喜欢橄榄油。

And I would almost feel more comfortable recommending that if you like olive oil, then that should be your go-to, rather than oils that are, I guess, maybe Frankensteined or engineered to a degree.

我几乎会觉得更舒服地推荐，如果你喜欢橄榄油，那么它应该是你的首选，而不是我猜可能是弗兰肯斯坦或在一定程度上经过改造的油。

And you mentioned the whole idea of how these oils are produced.

您提到了如何生产这些油的整个想法。

One of the concerns is hexane use to extract the oils from the seed cakes and stuff like that.

令人担忧的问题之一是使用己烷从种子饼和类似的东西中提取油。

Alan Aragon So, the use of solvents to get these oils out of their native source.

Alan Aragon So，使用溶剂将这些油从其天然来源中提取出来。

There's some interesting literature showing higher hexane levels in olive oil, than in, I forget, it was some other seed oil, whether it was canola or sunflower...

有一些有趣的文献显示，橄榄油中的己烷含量高于，我忘了，是其他一些种子油，无论是菜籽油还是向日葵......

But nevertheless, the hexane amounts were well below established safe thresholds.

但尽管如此，己烷的含量远低于既定的安全阈值。

And so I really do think that people are getting sort of lost in the weeds and kind of missing the forest for the trees, focusing on the little grains of sand and missing the big boulders.

所以我确实认为人们有点迷失在杂草中，只见树木不见森林，只关注小沙粒而忽略了大石头。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Thank you for that.

谢谢你。

I think it's going to clarify a number of things for a number of people.

我认为这将为很多人澄清很多事情。

I also love olive oil.

我也喜欢橄榄油。

Over the years, I've tried to consume less butter.

多年来，我一直尝试减少黄油的摄入。

I love the taste of butter.

我喜欢黄油的味道。

Alan Aragon Can I interrupt and let you know that I'm not anti-butter at all.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）我可以打断一下并让你知道我根本不反对黄油吗？

Andrew Huberman Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼 是的。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon When you look at the evidence, if you butter everything up in your diet and you really pound like the...

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）当你查看证据时，如果你把饮食中的所有东西都涂上黄油，你真的会像……

You're just eating sticks of butter, then you're hedging your bets in the direction of increased cardiovascular risk.

你只是在吃黄油棒，然后你就在心血管风险增加的方向上对冲你的赌注。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon And there's even a really interesting study comparing cream with butter, on blood lipids.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）甚至还有一项非常有趣的研究，比较了奶油和黄油对血脂的影响。

And so cream actually had a neutral effect on blood lipids, whereas butter kind of skewed things in an adverse direction.

因此，奶油实际上对血脂具有中性影响，而黄油则使血脂向相反的方向倾斜。

Usually, it's typically an increase in LDL.

通常，这通常是低密度脂蛋白（LDL）的增加。

The reason why cream had this neutral effect, what they're figuring, and this is based on other studies as well, is that it's got this component called milk fat globule membrane, MFGM, which gets churned out of butter.

他们认为，奶油之所以具有这种中性作用，也是基于其他研究，是因为它含有一种称为乳脂肪球膜（MFGM）的成分，它是从黄油中搅拌而成的。

And so even within the dairy category, you have very differently behaving types of foods.

因此，即使在乳制品类别中，也有不同类型的食品。

And once again, I'm not anti-butter, but we have to acknowledge that some foods within a given food category are a little bit riskier, and you should be a little bit more careful about just the sheer amounts you consume of it over a lifetime.

再说一遍，我并不反对黄油，但我们必须承认，特定食品类别中的某些食品风险较高，您应该更加小心一生中食用黄油的绝对数量。

Andrew Huberman Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼 是的。

Years ago when first starting the podcast, when I wasn't aware of frankly how big the podcast was going to grow to, I made a joke about, "I eat slabs of butter to increase my cholesterol, so I have higher testosterone." And man, did I pay for that one.

几年前，当我第一次开始播客时，坦白地说，当我不知道播客会发展到多大时，我开玩笑说：“我吃黄油块来增加胆固醇，所以我的睾酮水平更高。”伙计，我付钱了吗？

Alan Aragon That's pure gold.

艾伦·阿拉贡 那是纯金。

Andrew Huberman Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼 是的。

I've always tried to get a little bit of saturated fat in my daily diet, either through red meat, or through eggs, or through a tablespoon or two maybe of butter, depending on how hard I'm training and what my caloric needs are.

我一直试图在日常饮食中获取一点饱和脂肪，无论是通过红肉，还是通过鸡蛋，或者通过一两汤匙黄油，具体取决于我的训练强度和我的热量需求。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman So, I don't like to drop my saturated fat to zero, because I find that my skin gets dry, I don't feel as well, and my blood profiles actually suffer a little bit.

Andrew Huberman 所以，我不喜欢将我的饱和脂肪降到零，因为我发现我的皮肤变得干燥，我感觉不太好，而且我的血液状况实际上受到了一点影响。

So, that's just me.

所以，这就是我。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman But I just want to re-emphasize that I don't think people should consciously try and increase their butter intake.

Andrew Huberman 但我想再次强调，我认为人们不应该有意识地尝试增加黄油摄入量。

But between butter and olive oil, and the fats naturally occurring in nuts, and eggs, and red meat, consuming some omega-3s through fish oil, or through some fatty fish intake, you can get a pretty nice contour of the different lipids that include a bunch of micronutrients too, right?

但是，在黄油和橄榄油以及坚果、鸡蛋和红肉中天然存在的脂肪之间，通过鱼油或通过摄入一些富含脂肪的鱼摄入一些 omega-3，您可以得到不同脂质的漂亮轮廓，其中还包括一堆微量营养素，对吗？

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman I feel like the idea of just emphasizing tallow, and butter, and red meat to the exclusion of every plant-based fat or nuts, to me, seems nuts.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）我觉得只强调牛脂、黄油和红肉而排除所有植物性脂肪或坚果的想法对我来说似乎很疯狂。

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman And I'm friends with Paul Saladino, and I'll say that.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：我是保罗·萨拉迪诺（Paul Saladino）的朋友，我会这么说。

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Andrew Huberman I also think that if you eat a diet that's very low in saturated fat, like very, very low in saturated fat, most of the people that I know who've done that, and certainly myself, it leads to drier skin, brittle hair, and achy joints.

安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）我还认为，如果你的饮食中饱和脂肪含量非常低，比如饱和脂肪含量非常非常低，我认识的大多数人都这样做过，当然还有我自己，这会导致皮肤干燥、头发脆弱和关节疼痛。

I do think there's really something to including some saturated fat in one's diet in, I would say, low moderation, right?

我确实认为在饮食中加入一些饱和脂肪确实有好处，我想说的是，低适度，对吧？

Alan Aragon Sure.

艾伦·阿拉贡 当然。

Andrew Huberman Especially as one gets older.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）尤其是随着年龄的增长。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman And I know that all of the carnivore folks have probably left the conversation by now.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman） 我知道所有的肉食动物现在可能已经离开了谈话。

Alan Aragon The Mediterranean keto model is legit.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）地中海酮模型是合法的。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon It's got nothing but positive effects that have been seen in the literature.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）：除了文献中所见的积极影响之外，什么也没有。

So, if you wanted to go keto, but instead of eating a bunch of lard, or butter, or beef fat, you swap it out with nuts, avocado, extra virgin olive oil, some extra virgin coconut oil, then you have a much better cardiovascular risk profile.

所以，如果你想吃酮，但不是吃一堆猪油、黄油或牛油，而是用坚果、鳄梨、特级初榨橄榄油、一些特级初榨椰子油代替，那么你的心血管风险就会好得多。

And you can still be on keto, and you can still consume the range of protein sources, and you're sort of getting kind of a win-win there.

你仍然可以吃酮，你仍然可以消耗各种蛋白质来源，这在某种程度上是一种双赢。

Oddly, the U.S. government used to recommend, and they used to dish out this recommendation, of your fat intake, a third of it...

奇怪的是，美国政府曾经推荐，而且他们曾经提出这个建议，你的脂肪摄入量，其中三分之一......

So, the government has always been into low fat, so 30% fat.

所以，政府一直提倡低脂，所以脂肪含量为30%。

10% should be saturated.

10%应该饱和。

10% should be monounsaturated.

10%应该是单不饱和的。

10% should be polyunsaturated.

10%应该是多不饱和的。

And so, they kind of had the right idea there with kind of getting a variety of the fat types in there.

因此，他们的想法是正确的，在其中加入各种脂肪类型。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon And I'm familiar with the literature on saturated fat, and cholesterol, and testosterone levels.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon） 我熟悉有关饱和脂肪、胆固醇和睾酮水平的文献。

And as somebody who is not on exogenous testosterone, dude, I'm going to be grabbing for whatever dietary advantage I can get, as far as keeping my testosterone levels up.

作为一个不使用外源性睾酮的人，伙计，我将抓住我能获得的任何饮食优势，以保持我的睾酮水平。

And so, I personally would not engage a zero saturated fat diet either.

因此，我个人也不会采用零饱和脂肪饮食。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

I think that's great for people to hear.

我认为这对人们来说很好。

Are you aware of any female-specific nutrition advice, aside from adjusting for body weight?

除了调整体重之外，您是否知道任何针对女性的营养建议？

On average, women tend to be lower body weight than men.

平均而言，女性的体重往往低于男性。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman Not always, but...

安德鲁·休伯曼 并不总是如此，但是......

And so on, lower lean mass, et cetera.

等等，降低瘦体重等等。

Not always.

并非总是如此。

Is there anything specific about some of the topics that we've discussed thus far, from your experience, and I know your wife is extremely skilled in the department of training and nutrition, et cetera, for clients, that is truly female-specific?

根据您的经验，我们迄今为止讨论的一些主题有什么具体的内容吗？我知道您的妻子在培训和营养等部门非常熟练，对于客户来说，这是真正针对女性的？

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Andrew Huberman Something that they really benefit from doing certain things, or not doing certain things that men can get away with, or don't have to pay attention to?

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：他们从做某些事情中真正受益，或者不做某些男人可以逃脱或不必注意的事情？

Alan Aragon There's very little in that direction.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon） 在这方面几乎没有什么。

Almost nothing.

几乎什么都没有。

Almost no meaningful differences that you can sort of universalize about, "Women need to eat this way.

几乎没有任何有意义的差异可以普遍化，“女性需要这样吃。

Men need to eat that way." The only thing that I would concede to, is that if you have somebody with the goal of...

男人就需要这样吃。”我唯一要承认的是，如果有人的目标是……

You know what?

你知道吗？

Forget about the goal.

忘记目标。

If somebody is of childbearing age, she's going to have a monthly menstrual cycle, and during that monthly cycle, for about a week out of the month, her cravings are going to go through the roof.

如果某人处于育龄期，她每个月都会有一次月经周期，在每月的周期中，大约有一周的时间，她的渴望会达到顶峰。

She might have lethargy at the same time, and just feel generally like crap.

她可能同时感到昏昏欲睡，感觉很糟糕。

And even emotionally, things will be kind of dysregulated.

甚至在情感上，事情也会有点失调。

During that time, I don't think women should totally fight their cravings, especially if somebody is on a weight loss diet.

在那段时间里，我认为女性不应该完全抑制自己的渴望，特别是如果有人正在减肥。

Alan Aragon So, there's a tactic that we can use with clients called diet breaks.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon） 那么，我们可以对客户使用一种策略，称为节食休息。

So, if you're endeavoring weight loss, then you can go hard for three weeks, and then on the week of the menstrual cycle, kind of take it easy.

所以，如果你正在努力减肥，那么你可以努力减肥三周，然后在月经周期的那一周，放松一下。

And then give into your cravings, so to speak, for that week.

然后，可以说，在那一周，屈服于你的渴望。

And I'm not saying to use that week to undo the progress you made in the previous three weeks.

我并不是说用那一周来撤销你在前三周取得的进展。

But I think that if you're going to diet in a cyclical fashion, and this works quite well with women observationally, then your week off, or your higher calorie week, or your maintenance week, just coincide it with the menstrual cycle.

但我认为，如果你要以周期性的方式节食，并且观察到这对女性非常有效，那么你的休息周，或者你的高卡路里周，或者你的维持周，就与月经周期一致。

And that way, you're not fighting mother nature.

这样，你就不会与大自然作斗争。

You're kind of riding with mother nature, and you can have potentially an easier time improving body composition that way.

你就像与大自然一起骑行，这样你可能会更容易地改善身体成分。

Alan Aragon As far as the other claims that float around about the perimenopausal period, or the menopausal transition, and, "Women have to eat this way, they have to avoid this and that," and eating...

艾伦·阿拉贡 (Alan Aragon) 至于其他关于围绝经期或绝经过渡期的说法，以及“女性必须这样吃，她们必须避免这个和那个”，并且吃……

There are all kinds of claims being made.

人们提出了各种各样的主张。

They should be framed as speculations, honestly.

老实说，它们应该被视为猜测。

And with the menopausal transition...

随着更年期的过渡......

Menopause is a really hot thing right now amongst the influencers, and things like that.

更年期现在在影响者中是一个非常热门的事情，诸如此类的事情。

And there is some research showing that there is fat mass that's gained during the menopausal transition, and lean mass that's lost at a general population level.

有一些研究表明，在更年期过渡期间，脂肪量会增加，而瘦肉量在一般人群水平上会减少。

But there's a lot of scaremongering around that as well.

但围绕这一点也有很多危言耸听的说法。

And there's a study that was done, it's called the SWAN Study.

有一项研究已经完成，称为 SWAN 研究。

It's the longest, and largest study on this topic.

这是关于这个主题最长、规模最大的研究。

Alan Aragon And they looked at the four to eight-year menopausal transition, and that usually occurs in women from their mid-40s to mid-50s.

Alan Aragon 他们研究了四到八年的更年期过渡，这通常发生在 40 多岁到 50 多岁的女性身上。

And they looked at early menopause, mid-menopause, post-menopause, and they looked at the effects on body composition, or the relationship, at least, with menopausal transition and body composition.

他们研究了更年期早期、绝经中期、绝经后，并研究了对身体成分的影响，或者至少是与更年期过渡和身体成分的关系。

During a concentrated three-and-a-half-year period where most of the changes took place, the average body fat gained was 1.6 kilograms, so that's three and a half pounds.

在发生大部分变化的集中三年半期间，平均体脂增加了 1.6 公斤，即三磅半。

The average amount of lean mass lost was .2 kilograms, so about half a pound of lean mass lost.

平均损失的瘦体重为 0.2 公斤，因此大约损失了半磅的瘦体重。

So, yes, these things occur, but the magnitude of which they occur...

所以，是的，这些事情发生了，但它们发生的严重程度......

And this is in the general population.

这是在普通人群中。

This isn't in fitness people who are really meticulous about high enough protein, resistance training, et cetera.

对于那些真正注重足够高蛋白质、阻力训练等的健身人士来说，情况并非如此。

I don't think the scaremongering is warranted.

我认为危言耸听是没有道理的。

Alan Aragon I know that there are very real symptoms associated with the menopausal transition that make adhering to a fitness program, or a diet program very tough.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）我知道，与更年期过渡相关的一些非常真实的症状使得坚持健身计划或饮食计划变得非常困难。

The hot flashes, the lethargy, joint pain, changes in sexual function.

潮热、嗜睡、关节疼痛、性功能改变。

The combination of those things, how they affect sleep.

这些因素的结合，它们如何影响睡眠。

Poor sleep affects everything negatively.

睡眠不好会对一切产生负面影响。

And so, when you work with somebody, as a practitioner, who is going through the menopausal transition, I would grant that maybe you set their expectations at maybe 50% of the amount that you would with somebody who was not in the menopausal transition.

因此，当你作为一名从业者与正在经历更年期过渡的人一起工作时，我同意你将他们的期望设定为与未处于更年期过渡的人的期望值的 50%。

So, whereas you would maybe set somebody to expect around a pound a week loss if they're trying to lose body fat, then you should maybe set somebody in the perimenopausal period to be okay with around half of that.

所以，如果你想减掉身体脂肪，你可能会设定一个人每周减重一磅左右，那么你应该让处于更年期的人接受大约一半的体重。

Andrew Huberman Because of the other changes that are occurring that make the rest and recovery more difficult.

Andrew Huberman 因为正在发生的其他变化使休息和恢复变得更加困难。

Alan Aragon Oh, yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 噢，是的。

Yep.

是的。

Alan Aragon Absolutely.

艾伦·阿拉贡 绝对的。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Thank you for that answer.

谢谢你的回答。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman I know it's a topic that, as you mentioned, is more frequent these days.

安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman），正如您提到的，我知道这个话题现在越来越频繁。

I think it's important that it is; it's been a topic that hasn't received a lot of attention until fairly recently.

我认为这一点很重要；直到最近，这个话题才受到广泛关注。

I think because, A, the Women's Health Initiative studies weren't completed.

我认为是因为，A，妇女健康倡议研究尚未完成。

A lot of them were completed in recent years.

其中许多是近年来完成的。

And so the data, "were in." I think also the effects on brain, like the relationship between estrogen, testosterone, and brain function in males and females, is something that we're just now starting to really understand with modern imaging tools and so on.

所以数据“就在其中”。我认为对大脑的影响，比如雌激素、睾酮和男性和女性大脑功能之间的关系，是我们现在才开始通过现代成像工具等真正了解的。

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Andrew Huberman So, this is an area, of course, that's going to evolve quickly in the upcoming years.

Andrew Huberman：当然，这是一个在未来几年将会快速发展的领域。

Collagen.

胶原。

I've had a dermo-oncologist-

我有一位皮肤肿瘤科医生-

Alan Aragon Another death match fight.

艾伦·阿拉贡 另一场死亡竞赛。

Andrew Huberman Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼 是的。

I've had a dermo-oncologist on this podcast, we talked about collagen.

我在这个播客上邀请了一位皮肤肿瘤学家，我们讨论了胶原蛋白。

My read of the data on collagen is that the amino acid profile in collagen, which typically comes from fish, I believe, most collagen sources are fish-based, or bovine.

我读到的关于胶原蛋白的数据是，胶原蛋白中的氨基酸分布，通常来自鱼，我相信，大多数胶原蛋白来源都是鱼或牛的。

Alan Aragon Fish or bovine.

艾伦·阿拉贡 鱼或牛。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman The amino acid profile is not terrific, from the perspective of muscle protein synthesis.

Andrew Huberman 从肌肉蛋白质合成的角度来看，氨基酸谱并不是很好。

Low in leucine and other branch chain amino acids, higher in other amino acids.

亮氨酸和其他支链氨基酸含量低，其他氨基酸含量较高。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman But the amino acids that it is high in, comprise a significant fraction of what skin and other soft tissues are made of.

安德鲁·休伯曼 (Andrew Huberman) 但它富含的氨基酸在皮肤和其他软组织的构成成分中占很大一部分。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman So, ingesting 15 to 30 grams of collagen per day might be beneficial, independent and separate from dietary protein for the sake of muscle protein synthesis.

Andrew Huberman 因此，为了肌肉蛋白的合成，每天摄入 15 至 30 克胶原蛋白可能是有益的，并且独立于膳食蛋白，并且与膳食蛋白分开。

It also so happens, if you don't mind me saying, you have very nice skin.

如果你不介意我说的话，你的皮肤也非常好。

So, do you take collagen?

那么，你吃胶原蛋白吗？

Alan Aragon Thank you, sir.

艾伦·阿拉贡 谢谢您，先生。

Andrew Huberman He's 53 years old; you've got nice skin.

Andrew Huberman 他今年 53 岁；你皮肤很好。

Do you take collagen?

你服用胶原蛋白吗？

And what are your thoughts about people who want to take collagen, specifically to improve skin appearance and for no other reason?

您对那些想要服用胶原蛋白（特别是为了改善皮肤外观而没有其他原因）的人有何看法？

Alan Aragon Okay, so I want to start off by saying that fitness professionals in the “evidence-based community," they have almost a pathologically minimalist approach to supplementation.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）好吧，我首先想说的是，“循证社区”中的健身专业人士，他们几乎采用了一种病态的极简主义补充方法。

So, it's almost like if you can avoid a supplement, and dismiss it, and poo-poo it...

所以，这几乎就像你可以避免服用补充剂，然后放弃它，然后大便它......

Hey, great, we won.

嘿，太好了，我们赢了。

I'm not like that with a few supplements, and collagen is one of them.

我不是那种只吃几种补充剂的人，胶原蛋白就是其中之一。

And for one thing, of all the proteins in the body, collagen is the single most abundant.

一方面，在体内所有蛋白质中，胶原蛋白是最丰富的。

And collagen comprises about, gosh, 20 to 40% of the proteins in the body.

天哪，胶原蛋白约占体内蛋白质的 20% 至 40%。

It comprises a significant amount of bone tissue, and not just the joints, and ligaments, and tendons.

它包含大量的骨组织，而不仅仅是关节、韧带和肌腱。

Alan Aragon And so from a very kind of, no-brainer, troglodytic level, what is everybody's issue with providing the raw materials to the body that it can use to build these tissues?

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）因此，从一种非常简单的穴居人的角度来看，每个人在向身体提供可用于构建这些组织的原材料方面有什么问题？

And the pushback on that is the idea that the body takes any protein, breaks it down into its constituent amino acids, and the amino acids get shuttled to where they need to go depending on the homeostatic need of the body, or whatever need the body has at the moment.

对此的反对意见是，身体摄取任何蛋白质，将其分解为其组成氨基酸，然后氨基酸根据身体的稳态需要或身体当前的任何需要而穿梭到它们需要去的地方。

Okay.

好的。

Well, if we go with that logic, then we would say, "Okay, so then there's really no such thing as better proteins than others, as long as we have sort of a basic amount of the essential amino acids." No, that's just not true.

好吧，如果我们遵循这种逻辑，那么我们会说，“好吧，那么只要我们拥有基本数量的必需氨基酸，就真的没有比其他蛋白质更好的东西了。”不，那不是真的。

Alan Aragon And then beyond that, the interesting thing about collagen, and this is debated as well, is its resistance to full hydrolysis where you've got these collagen fragments that can float through circulation, and into the target tissues.

除此之外，胶原蛋白的有趣之处在于它对完全水解的抵抗力，这些胶原蛋白碎片可以通过循环漂浮并进入目标组织，这也引起了争议。

These di- and tri-peptides, right?

这些二肽和三肽，对吧？

They've been observed through isotopic tracer technology, and they make it into the chondrocytes or the joint cells, and they increase the activity in the chondrocytes.

通过同位素示踪技术观察到它们，它们进入软骨细胞或关节细胞，并增加软骨细胞的活性。

That has been documented and published.

这已被记录并发布。

But beyond that, nobody balks about consuming enough dietary calcium to maintain the integrity of the skeletal system.

但除此之外，没有人会拒绝摄入足够的膳食钙来维持骨骼系统的完整性。

But hey, you talk about consuming enough collagen to maintain the integrity of connective tissues throughout the body, including skin.

但是，嘿，你说的是消耗足够的胶原蛋白来维持整个身体结缔组织（包括皮肤）的完整性。

Alan Aragon Skin is 80% collagen by dry weight, then people lose their crap.

按干重计算，艾伦·阿拉贡 (Alan Aragon) 的皮肤含有 80% 的胶原蛋白，然后人们就失去了他们的粪便。

I kind of think it's a no-brainer to at least be optimistic about collagen supplementation if you're somebody who never eats the cartilage of the meat, the bone, the connective tissue parts.

我认为，如果你是一个从不吃肉、骨头、结缔组织部分的软骨的人，那么至少对胶原蛋白补充剂持乐观态度是理所当然的。

If you don't eat your animal foods nose to tail, and you're just eating muscle meats, I think the guy who does that but takes collagen as a supplement is going to have an edge on you throughout the life course.

如果你不从头到尾吃动物食品，而只吃肌肉，我认为这样做但服用胶原蛋白作为补充剂的人将在你的整个生命过程中占据优势。

And on a related note, I think that's one of the disadvantages that vegans might have until they find a genius way to manufacture a non-animal collagen molecule.

与此相关的是，我认为这是素食主义者可能面临的缺点之一，直到他们找到一种制造非动物胶原蛋白分子的天才方法。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon There are multiple systematic reviews showing the benefits of collagen on various skin outcomes, which are debated, of course.

艾伦·阿拉贡 (Alan Aragon) 有多项系统评论显示胶原蛋白对各种皮肤结果的益处，当然，这些评论还存在争议。

Whey protein always seems to kick collagen's ass for muscle-related outcomes, but that's not what we're taking collagen for.

乳清蛋白似乎总是在肌肉相关的结果上击败胶原蛋白，但这并不是我们服用胶原蛋白的目的。

So, back to your original question, yeah, I do take collagen.

所以，回到你原来的问题，是的，我确实服用胶原蛋白。

Andrew Huberman How much do you take?

安德鲁·休伯曼 你服用多少？

Alan Aragon About 15 grams a day.

艾伦阿拉贡每天大约15克。

Andrew Huberman Mm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 M.

Alan Aragon To me, it's kind of a no-brainer, just like getting enough...

艾伦·阿拉贡 (Alan Aragon) 对我来说，这是理所当然的事情，就像获得足够的……

You're providing the raw materials that the body is going to use and need anyway, and the debate is whether or not the bioavailability is meaningful.

你提供了身体将要使用和需要的原材料，争论的焦点是生物利用度是否有意义。

Ah, you know what?

啊，你知道吗？

I'm willing to just do the first world thing, and take that chance and take the collagen supplement.

我愿意做世界上第一件事，并借此机会补充胶原蛋白。

The downsides are basically nonexistent.

缺点基本不存在。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Great.

伟大的。

What other supplements do you take?

您还服用哪些其他补充剂？

Maybe we can establish a hierarchy of supplements or clusters.

也许我们可以建立一个补充品或集群的层次结构。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman Instead of the top one, let's talk which ones by disposable budget.

Andrew Huberman：我们不讨论最重要的一个，而是根据可支配预算来讨论哪些。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman I think this is a real-world perspective.

安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）我认为这是现实世界的视角。

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman So, let's agree that the main thing is to get enough sleep, exercise, eat well.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）所以，我们一致认为最重要的是获得充足的睡眠、锻炼和良好的饮食。

To eat well, you want to emphasize what you talked about, and to try and get the best quality sources that you can afford.

为了吃得好，你需要强调你所谈论的内容，并尝试获得你能负担得起的最优质的来源。

Let's assume that somebody has the amount of disposable income to be able to buy one or two supplements to take on an ongoing basis.

让我们假设某人有足够的可支配收入能够购买一两种补充剂并持续服用。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman And let's set aside food supplements, like whey protein from vitamins and performance supplements, and just kind of put them all out there.

Andrew Huberman：让我们把食品补充剂放在一边，比如维生素中的乳清蛋白和功能补充剂，然后把它们全部放在那里。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman Okay, let's say I've got...

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）好吧，假设我有......

It's just going to differ by country, but let's say, I've got $150 of disposable income.

只是因国家/地区而异，但假设我有 150 美元的可支配收入。

I could get one or two supplements that I can take ongoing.

我可以获得一两种可以持续服用的补充剂。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman What would you place into that category?

安德鲁·休伯曼 (Andrew Huberman) 您认为该类别中的什么内容？

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman If the goal is to keep lean tissue the same, or increase lean tissue, and keep body fat where it is, or lose some body fat, overall vigor, overall health, longevity.

Andrew Huberman 如果目标是保持瘦肉组织不变，或增加瘦肉组织，并将体内脂肪保持在现有水平，或减少一些身体脂肪，则整体活力、整体健康、长寿。

Alan Aragon Okay.

艾伦·阿拉贡 好的。

Got it.

知道了。

Andrew Huberman Yeah, the big picture.

安德鲁·休伯曼 是的，大局观。

Yeah.

是的。

Alan Aragon Okay, so my answer to this is going to be very bro-scientific, because it is so hard to study those outcomes, that we almost are just placing our bets when we do the supplement thing, beyond having a diet that is diverse across and within the food groups, and provides all the essential macro and micro nutrients, which it often doesn't, especially if we're dieting, especially if we're training, or a combination of both.

艾伦·阿拉贡：好的，所以我对此的回答将是非常科学的，因为研究这些结果是如此困难，以至于我们在做补充品时几乎只是在下注，除了饮食在食物组之间和内部多样化之外，并提供所有必需的宏观和微观营养素，而它通常不会，特别是如果我们正在节食，特别是如果我们正在训练，或者两者兼而有之。

Especially if we're caught out and not eating an optimal diet, traveling all over the place, which we often are.

特别是如果我们被发现没有采取最佳饮食，到处旅行（我们经常这样做）。

So, I personally see a multivitamin, and mineral as a no-brainer, a no-fricking-brainer.

因此，我个人认为复合维生素和矿物质是理所当然的选择。

Alan Aragon Who do you know that eats this pristine diet that just nails all of the micronutrients in optimal amounts?

艾伦·阿拉贡 (Alan Aragon) 您认识谁吃这种原始饮食，只以最佳量摄取所有微量营养素？

That's a very rare person, and that person would have to be covering the food groups, and eating a whole lot of calories across and within the different groups.

这是一个非常罕见的人，这个人必须涵盖食物类别，并在不同类别之间和内部摄入大量卡路里。

So, this is the bro-science part of me...

所以，这就是我的兄弟科学部分......

I take two multivitamins.

我服用两种复合维生素。

Andrew Huberman A double dose of the same one, or two different ones?

Andrew Huberman 相同剂量的双倍剂量，还是两种不同剂量的剂量？

Alan Aragon Two different ones.

艾伦·阿拉贡 两个不同的。

One of them does not have iron.

其中之一没有铁。

Andrew Huberman Okay.

安德鲁·休伯曼 好的。

Alan Aragon One of them does.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）就是其中之一。

Andrew Huberman You take them with meals?

Andrew Huberman 你把它们和饭一起吃吗？

Alan Aragon I take it with meals, yes.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon），是的，我随餐服用。

Andrew Huberman In the early part of the day, presumably?

安德鲁·休伯曼 (Andrew Huberman) 大概是在今天早些时候吧？

Alan Aragon I take it with dinner.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）我把它和晚餐一起吃。

Andrew Huberman Hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯。

Okay.

好的。

Alan Aragon That's usually my largest meal.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon） 这通常是我吃得最多的一餐。

Mm-hmm, yeah.

嗯嗯，是的。

Andrew Huberman Okay.

安德鲁·休伯曼 好的。

So, a good quality multivitamin?

那么，优质复合维生素吗？

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman Okay.

安德鲁·休伯曼 好的。

Alan Aragon I do that.

艾伦·阿拉贡 我就是这么做的。

Usually with multivitamins, it would have to be an absolute horse pill to get enough vitamin D, or vitamin D3 in that.

通常使用多种维生素时，必须是绝对的马丸才能获得足够的维生素 D 或维生素 D3。

So, I do take extra vitamin D3.

所以，我确实服用了额外的维生素 D3。

Andrew Huberman How many IU per day?

安德鲁·休伯曼 每天多少国际单位？

Alan Aragon Oh, that's where I get real bro-scientific on you, man.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）哦，这就是我对你真正的科学认识的地方，伙计。

I take quite a bit.

我花了很多。

The literature cuts off with benefits below a thousand IUs.

文献记载的益处低于 1000 个 IU。

I take 4000 IUs.

我服用 4000 个国际单位。

Andrew Huberman I don't think that's exceedingly high.

Andrew Huberman 我认为这个数字并不是很高。

Alan Aragon Yeah, well, you don't...

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的，好吧，你不...

You're a bro too.

你也是个兄弟啊

Andrew Huberman Yeah...

安德鲁·休伯曼 是的...

Listen, I have female family members who were having some health struggles, that for whom the only change was 5000 IU of vitamin D3 per day, and it made a significant positive effect on a number of different subjective metrics, and some objective metrics.

听着，我有一些女性家庭成员的健康状况不佳，对她们来说唯一的改变是每天服用 5000 IU 维生素 D3，这对许多不同的主观指标和一些客观指标产生了显着的积极影响。

And these were people that were getting their sunlight, and eating very high-quality food, and really putting time and effort into it.

这些人享受阳光，吃高质量的食物，并真正投入时间和精力。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman So, I'm a believer in D3.

Andrew Huberman 所以，我是 D3 的信徒。

Alan Aragon D3 is getting "PubMeded" right now in a similar way that fish oil is getting "PubMeded."

Alan Aragon D3 现在正在获得“PubMeded”，就像鱼油正在获得“PubMeded”一样。

Andrew Huberman I like that.

安德鲁·休伯曼 我喜欢这个。

We verbed PubMed.

我们称之为 PubMed。

Yeah.

是的。

Alan Aragon We did.

艾伦·阿拉贡 我们做到了。

Alan Aragon So, it's now a controversial thing to take vitamin D3.

Alan Aragon 那么，服用维生素 D3 现在是一个有争议的事情。

You have position statements rolling out, "Oh, well, we thought you need...

你有立场声明推出，“哦，好吧，我们认为你需要......

Now you don't really...

现在你真的不...

Ah."

啊。”

Andrew Huberman Mm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 M.

Andrew Huberman Okay, so a good multivitamin with iron, especially for women who menstruate, right?

Andrew Huberman 好吧，这是一种很好的含铁复合维生素，特别是对于月经期的女性来说，对吧？

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Andrew Huberman Especially you'll need that.

Andrew Huberman：你尤其需要它。

Vitamin D, D3?

维生素D、D3？

Alan Aragon I take vitamin D3.

艾伦·阿拉贡 (Alan Aragon) 我服用维生素 D3。

I take fish oil.

我吃鱼油。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon I take three grams of fish oil.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）我服用三克鱼油。

Not three grams combined EPA/DHA, but three grams in three one-gram capsules.

EPA/DHA 不是 3 克的组合，而是 3 个 1 克胶囊中的 3 克。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman That's a good amount, I would say.

Andrew Huberman：我想说，这是一个很好的数字。

Does that get you over the one gram per day of EPA?

这会让您每天摄入的 EPA 超过 1 克吗？

Alan Aragon It's right around there.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）就在那里。

Alan Aragon Yeah, it is.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的，确实如此。

Andrew Huberman Yeah, that's what I shoot for, too.

Andrew Huberman 是的，这也是我的目标。

It's one gram per day of EPA, which means taking about three grams total.

每天 1 克 EPA，这意味着总共摄入约 3 克。

Alan Aragon Yeah, it's about one gram a day of combined EPA/DHA, and the atrial fib literature is showing that anything much above that, okay, then you're incurring this risk.

Alan Aragon 是的，每天大约需要 1 克 EPA/DHA 的组合，心房纤维文献表明，任何高于这个数字的东西，好吧，那么你就会面临这种风险。

But you know what, man?

但你知道吗，伙计？

I don't believe everything I read.

我不相信我读到的一切。

Even in the peer-reviewed literature.

即使在同行评审的文献中也是如此。

Andrew Huberman You've been a scientist too long to believe everything you read.

安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：你当科学家太久了，无法相信你读到的一切。

Alan Aragon Yeah, dude.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的，伙计。

Andrew Huberman Right.

安德鲁·休伯曼 对。

That's how it works, yeah.

这就是它的工作原理，是的。

Alan Aragon There are just certain things you just take with a grain of salt.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon） 有些事情你只能持保留态度。

You recognize the literature evidence base, and then you make the judgment call.

您认识到文献证据基础，然后做出判断。

It's based on your own sensibilities, and how you respond individually.

它基于您自己的感受以及您个人的反应方式。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon The regular hierarchy of evidence is one way, but I think at the very tip is, how do you respond individually to protocol?

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon） 常规的证据层次是一种方法，但我认为最重要的是，你如何单独响应协议？

So, yeah.

所以，是的。

And so, Fish oil, I do take that.

所以，鱼油，我确实接受。

Another thing that would blow up the size of a multivitamin, is getting enough magnesium to show benefits, so I take magnesium.

另一件会增加复合维生素含量的事情是摄入足够的镁来显示其益处，所以我服用镁。

Andrew Huberman Which form of magnesium do you emphasize?

Andrew Huberman 您强调哪种形式的镁？

Alan Aragon Magnesium citrate.

艾伦阿拉贡柠檬酸镁。

Andrew Huberman Okay.

安德鲁·休伯曼 好的。

Alan Aragon I'm cool with pretty much anything except magnesium oxide.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon） 除了氧化镁之外，我对几乎任何东西都很酷。

Andrew Huberman Okay.

安德鲁·休伯曼 好的。

Alan Aragon Oxide is the low bioavailability form.

Alan Aragon Oxide 是低生物利用度形式。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon But yeah, magnesium citrate.

艾伦·阿拉贡：但是，是的，柠檬酸镁。

And I do take creatine, about five grams a day.

我确实服用肌酸，每天大约五克。

And I do take...

我确实采取...

Another bro-science maneuver which, boy, I'm really incriminating myself here.

又一个兄弟科学的策略，孩子，我真的是在自证其罪。

I take vitamin C.

我服用维生素C。

Extra vitamin C, a gram a day.

额外补充维生素C，每天一克。

Andrew Huberman What effect are you seeking with the vitamin C?

Andrew Huberman 您希望维生素 C 达到什么效果？

Alan Aragon Effects on immunity, plus kind of a potential synergy with the collagen.

艾伦·阿拉贡 (Alan Aragon) 对免疫力的影响，以及与胶原蛋白的潜在协同作用。

Andrew Huberman Oh, right, and there are some data on this.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）哦，对了，有一些这方面的数据。

I realize that you're framing all of this very cautiously under the umbrella of bro-science, but-

我知道你在兄弟科学的保护伞下非常谨慎地描述这一切，但是——

Alan Aragon And this is just me.

艾伦·阿拉贡 这就是我。

I wouldn't tell everybody to do this.

我不会告诉每个人都这样做。

You asked me what I'm taking.

你问我要吃什么。

Andrew Huberman Right.

安德鲁·休伯曼 对。

But I think there are good data on vitamin D, on D3, and combining 15 grams of collagen with vitamin C, at least in the studies looking at skin elasticity.

但我认为关于维生素 D、D3 以及 15 克胶原蛋白与维生素 C 的结合，有很好的数据，至少在皮肤弹性研究中是这样。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman So, you're not that far out on a limb.

Andrew Huberman：所以，你并没有那么孤立无援。

I'm realizing, and the audience is certainly realizing just how cautious and conservative you are with your words, which I believe everyone appreciates.

我意识到了，观众当然也意识到了你的言论是多么谨慎和保守，我相信每个人都欣赏这一点。

Alan Aragon Mm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 M.

Andrew Huberman So, the five grams of creatine, some vitamin C.

Andrew Huberman 那么，五克肌酸，一些维生素 C。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman Anything more esoteric than that?

Andrew Huberman 还有比这更深奥的吗？

Alan Aragon No, nothing beyond the multivitamin, D, fish oil, vitamin C, creatine, magnesium.

Alan Aragon 不，除了复合维生素、D、鱼油、维生素 C、肌酸、镁之外什么都没有。

Andrew Huberman How many days per week are you resistance training?

Andrew Huberman 您每周进行多少天阻力训练？

Alan Aragon About four to five.

艾伦·阿拉贡 (Alan Aragon) 大约四到五点。

Andrew Huberman And do you do cardio regularly?

Andrew Huberman 你经常做有氧运动吗？

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Okay, so here's the thing that a lot of people would ding me on, is that I try to make my resistance training cardio-y.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）：好吧，很多人都会嘲笑我的事情是，我试图让我的阻力训练成为有氧运动。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon So, my cardio, if you can call it cardio, would consist of just walks around the neighborhood on occasion, or just really light hikes on occasion, and maybe pacing around between sets.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）所以，我的有氧运动（如果你可以称之为有氧运动）将包括偶尔在附近散步，或者偶尔进行轻微的徒步旅行，也许在组之间来回踱步。

I enjoy resistance training.

我喜欢阻力训练。

I make it fun.

我让它变得有趣。

Everybody wants to wait two to three minutes between sets to move the maximal amount of loads.

每个人都希望在组间等待两到三分钟，以移动最大量的负荷。

But you know what?

但你知道吗？

You can do progressive resistance training, you can do progressive overload, even within a short rest paradigm.

你可以进行渐进式阻力训练，你可以进行渐进式超负荷训练，即使是在短暂的休息模式内。

As long as it's trending up, your net tonnage moved is trending up over time, it won't move up as quickly as if you were to freaking rest two to three minutes between sets.

只要它呈上升趋势，你的净吨位移动就会随着时间的推移而呈上升趋势，它的上升速度不会像你在组间休息两到三分钟那样快。

But I love short rests.

但我喜欢短暂的休息。

I love high rep.

我喜欢高代表。

Andrew Huberman You and I are not training together.

安德鲁·胡伯曼 你和我没有一起训练。

I like to lift heavy and slow, like three to five minutes between sets.

我喜欢缓慢地举重，每组之间三到五分钟。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman Now I'm in a two to five repetition range.

Andrew Huberman 现在我处于二到五次重复的范围内。

Anything more than six feels like cardio.

超过六次感觉就像有氧运动。

But I like to run, and I do other forms of cardio for cardio.

但我喜欢跑步，我还做其他形式的有氧运动来进行有氧运动。

But we should make sure that at some point, you and Cameron Hanes train together, because he does his run-lift-shoot thing that he does every day.

但我们应该确保在某个时候，你和卡梅伦·哈内斯一起训练，因为他每天都会做跑动投篮的事情。

He shoots arrows to practice his archery, he runs often 10 to 20 miles a day, but he lifts every day, and he does this circuit-style lifting training that I've done with him.

他射箭来练习射箭，他经常每天跑步 10 到 20 英里，但他每天都会举重，他会进行我和他一起进行的循环式举重训练。

Alan Aragon Awesome.

艾伦·阿拉贡 太棒了。

Andrew Huberman And for a guy like me, it's murder.

安德鲁·休伯曼 对于像我这样的人来说，这是谋杀。

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Andrew Huberman It is so hard.

安德鲁·休伯曼 这太难了。

I've never been so sore, I've never been so exhausted.

我从来没有这么痛过，我从来没有这么疲惫过。

But it sounds like it's very well-tuned to what you thrive on.

但听起来它非常适合你的发展方向。

Alan Aragon I've been messing around with cluster sets, and I want you to try this, okay?

Alan Aragon 我一直在摆弄集群集，我想让你尝试一下，好吗？

Andrew Huberman Can you explain for people what a cluster set is?

Andrew Huberman 你能为人们解释一下什么是簇集吗？

Alan Aragon A cluster set is where you're basically breaking up a set with rest periods that range anywhere from, gosh, five to around 20 seconds, within a single set, or within a set of sets.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon） 集群组是指你基本上将一组的休息时间分开，天哪，在一组或一组组内，休息时间范围从五秒到大约 20 秒不等。

Andrew Huberman So, like leg extension, leg press, and then squat as-

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）所以，就像腿伸展、压腿，然后蹲下一样——

Alan Aragon That would be more like a super set or a giant set.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon） 那更像是一个超级集合或一个巨型集合。

Andrew Huberman Okay.

安德鲁·休伯曼 好的。

Alan Aragon So, a cluster set is like a single...

Alan Aragon 所以，集群集就像一个单一的......

I'll explain it.

我会解释一下。

I want you to try this, I think you'll find it fun.

我想让你尝试一下，我想你会发现它很有趣。

Okay?

好的？

So, with a given lift, let's imagine...

所以，在给定的升力下，让我们想象一下......

What's your favorite...

你最喜欢什么...

I'm talking to you as if you're a bodybuilder.

我和你说话就像你是一个健美运动员一样。

What's your favorite body part to train?

你最喜欢训练的身体部位是什么？

Andrew Huberman I like to run, and I lift to stay strong enough and stable enough to run.

Andrew Huberman 我喜欢跑步，我会举重以保持足够的力量和稳定性来跑步。

What do I like to train the most?

我最喜欢训练什么？

Alan Aragon Yep.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

As far as just muscle groups.

就肌肉群而言。

Andrew Huberman These days, I've been doing a lot...

安德鲁·休伯曼 这些天，我做了很多......

I love leg day.

我喜欢腿部日。

I'm a huge fan of leg day, so I go very heavy on hack squats, or belt squats.

我是腿部日的超级粉丝，所以我非常喜欢哈克深蹲或腰带深蹲。

Alan Aragon Okay.

艾伦·阿拉贡 好的。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Are you a leg extension person?

艾伦·阿拉贡 (Alan Aragon) 你是腿部伸展运动爱好者吗？

Andrew Huberman Yep, I do those, too.

安德鲁·休伯曼 是的，我也这样做。

Alan Aragon Okay.

艾伦·阿拉贡 好的。

So, let's imagine that you pick a weight for leg extensions that you can do.

所以，让我们想象一下，您选择了一个可以做的腿部伸展重量。

Your first work set, after however you might warm up...

你的第一个工作组，但是之后你可能会热身......

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon Your first work set, pick a load that will enable you to fail out at about, let's say, 16 reps, okay?

Alan Aragon：你的第一个训练组，选择一个能让你在大约 16 次时力竭的负荷，好吗？

Andrew Huberman I don't think I've ever done more than 10.

Andrew Huberman 我想我从来没有做过超过 10 次。

Alan Aragon Or how about this?

艾伦·阿拉贡 或者这个怎么样？

Alan Aragon We'll do 12 reps.

Alan Aragon 我们将做 12 次。

Andrew Huberman Okay.

安德鲁·休伯曼 好的。

Alan Aragon 12 reps, okay?

艾伦·阿拉贡 (Alan Aragon) 12 次，好吗？

Andrew Huberman Fair enough.

安德鲁·休伯曼 够公平的。

Yep.

是的。

Alan Aragon Take it to failure.

艾伦·阿拉贡 (Alan Aragon) 走向失败。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon My colleagues would say, "Oh, okay, well, leave one rep in reserve and..." I like to train to failure all the freaking time.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon） 我的同事会说，“哦，好吧，好吧，留下一名代表作为后备，然后……”我喜欢一直训练到力竭。

It's more fun.

更有趣了。

I've been training for a long time.

我已经训练了很长时间了。

I don't hurt myself with training to failure, and I wouldn't train to failure with a fricking bench press, or a squat.

我不会因为训练到力竭而伤害自己，我也不会因为卧推或深蹲而训练到力竭。

But you can choose the exercises that you can take to failure.

但你可以选择可以失败的练习。

Leg extension is one of them that you can take to failure, you can take to partials.

腿部伸展是你可以尝试到力竭的动作之一，你可以尝试部分动作。

So, leg extensions.

所以，腿部伸展运动。

Choose a weight that you can do for 12 reps, take it to failure, and do five slow breaths.

选择一个可以重复 12 次的重量，直至力竭，然后缓慢呼吸 5 次。

That's one.

这是一个。

And take that five times and then go right back into the set.

重复五次，然后再回到集合中。

Don't change the weight.

不要改变重量。

Try to do half the amount of reps you did.

尝试做你所做的一半次数。

And you'll usually hit it, but sometimes you won't.

通常你会击中它，但有时你不会。

If you breathe fast enough, you kind of won't hit it.

如果你呼吸足够快，你就不会击中它。

But if your five slow breaths are slow enough, you'll hit the six reps in this case.

但如果你的五次缓慢呼吸足够慢，在这种情况下你就会完成六次。

Okay.

好的。

After that, 10 slow breaths.

之后，缓慢呼吸10次。

Alan Aragon Try to beat your previous set.

艾伦·阿拉贡 (Alan Aragon) 尝试击败您之前的一组。

If you can do six, great.

如果你能做六个，那就太好了。

If you can do seven, great.

如果你能做到七个，那就太好了。

And that's a cluster set with failure built into it a couple times.

这是一个内置了几次故障的集群集。

Andrew Huberman And how many cluster sets would you do per body part?

Andrew Huberman 对于每个身体部位，你会做多少组集群？

Two?

二？

Alan Aragon Yeah-

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的-

Andrew Huberman Because it's multiple sets.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）因为它是多组。

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman This seems like a great thing to do if one is low on time.

安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman） 如果一个人时间不够的话，这似乎是一件很棒的事情。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman And perhaps, if one has a nagging injury that you need to work around by avoiding heavy weights.

安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）也许，如果一个人受到了困扰，你需要通过避免大重量来解决这一问题。

I hope to never be in the position to have to do this workout.

我希望永远不会处于必须进行这项锻炼的境地。

Alan Aragon And you can add a drop set to the second exercise.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon） 你可以在第二个练习中添加递减组。

Andrew Huberman Okay.

安德鲁·休伯曼 好的。

Andrew Huberman Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼 是的。

Alan Aragon Cut the weight down by 25-ish% and go right into it and drop set.

艾伦·阿拉贡 (Alan Aragon) 将重量减轻了 25% 左右，然后直接进入减组训练。

So, kind of the point of that, and how I'm sort of defending my non-love for formal cardio, is with a lot of my resistance training, I sort of try to gamify it in that sense, and it ends up stimulating cardiorespiratory pathways to a greater degree than your typical resistance training.

所以，我如何捍卫我对正式有氧运动的不热爱，是通过我的大量阻力训练，我试图从这个意义上将其游戏化，它最终比典型的阻力训练更大程度地刺激心肺通路。

I would never deny the benefit of formal cardio.

我永远不会否认正式有氧运动的好处。

But it's just how I navigate my training and stick with what I enjoy.

但这就是我如何进行训练并坚持我喜欢的事情。

I do enough volume through the week to where, I would say that, look, whoever loves endurance adaptations, increases in VO2 max, pushing that in, great, good for you.

我一周做了足够的训练量，我会说，看，无论谁喜欢耐力适应，增加最大摄氧量，推动它，伟大，对你有好处。

Alan Aragon I just think that there's a limit to how much that will benefit cardiovascular health and/or longevity compared to just staying physically active, keeping good body composition, and just being consistent with that.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon） 我只是认为，与仅仅保持身体活动、保持良好的身体成分并保持一致相比，对心血管健康和/或长寿的益处是有限的。

And of course, the other lifestyle factors too.

当然，还有其他生活方式因素。

So, yeah.

所以，是的。

Different conversation, I guess.

我猜是不同的对话。

Andrew Huberman Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼 是的。

But I think it weaves very nicely into what we've been talking about up until now, which is a real-world scenario.

但我认为它很好地融入了我们迄今为止所讨论的现实世界场景。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman This is what works for you.

安德鲁·休伯曼 这对你有用。

I touched on what works for me, but this is what works for you, and you're able to kind of merge cardio and resistance training in a way that sounds very time efficient.

我谈到了对我有用的方法，但这就是对你有用的方法，你可以以一种听起来非常省时的方式将有氧运动和阻力训练结合起来。

Alan Aragon Well, I don't always do the cluster set thing.

Alan Aragon 嗯，我并不总是做集群设置的事情。

I love doing supersets.

我喜欢做超级组。

So, if I'm at a station where I can super set chest and back work, I'll super set with minimal rest, between sets.

所以，如果我在一个可以超级设定胸部和背部训练的位置，我会在组间休息最少的情况下进行超级设定。

Andrew Huberman Also very time efficient.

Andrew Huberman 也非常省时。

Alan Aragon Or bicep versus tricep work, or anything that you can do, sort of super-setting antagonistic muscles, I take advantage of that.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）或者二头肌与三头肌的训练，或者任何你能做的事情，某种超强对抗性肌肉，我都会利用这一点。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon I don't necessarily always do the cluster set thing.

Alan Aragon 我不一定总是做集群设置的事情。

Andrew Huberman You mentioned that your wife is a trainer.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）您提到您的妻子是一名教练。

Alan Aragon Yeah.

艾伦·阿拉贡 是的。

Andrew Huberman Does she train her female clients this way?

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）她会用这种方式训练她的女性客户吗？

And do you train your female clients this way?

你们也这样训练你们的女性客户吗？

The reason I ask, is that in my experience, I realize this is a generalization, but I've had female training partners before.

我之所以问这个问题，是因为根据我的经验，我意识到这是一个概括，但我以前也有过女性培训伙伴。

Some of the best training partners I've had, by the way, are female training partners.

顺便说一下，我遇到过的一些最好的训练伙伴是女性训练伙伴。

They worked hard, and they were also great athletes.

他们工作努力，而且也是伟大的运动员。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman They tended to view resistance training, at least at first, as something to limit the rest periods between sets.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）他们倾向于将阻力训练（至少在一开始）视为限制组间休息时间的方法。

They felt that if their heart rate wasn't up continuously, it wasn't exercise.

他们觉得如果心率不持续上升，就不是运动。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman Those people often were pleasantly surprised by doing lower repetition, longer rest work.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman） 这些人常常对重复次数较少、休息时间较长的工作感到惊喜。

Alan Aragon Mm-hmm.

艾伦·阿拉贡 嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman But in general, do you recommend what you just described more for your male or female training clients?

Andrew Huberman 但总的来说，您是否会向您的男性或女性培训客户推荐您刚才描述的更多内容？

Alan Aragon Being perfectly honest, it's just what I enjoy doing, and it is probably not the most efficient way to make muscle gains.

艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）说实话，这正是我喜欢做的事情，而且它可能不是增加肌肉的最有效方法。

But I just find it fun.

但我只是觉得很有趣。

Andrew Huberman Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯嗯。

Alan Aragon And I enjoy it.

艾伦·阿拉贡 我很喜欢它。

When I was training folks for the specific goal of hypertrophy, I would put them through kind of a standard, "Let's rest between sets, move the maximum amount of load, let's cover a spectrum of loading zones." I'm sort of with Brad Schoenfeld.

当我训练人们实现增肌的具体目标时，我会给他们制定一个标准，“让我们在组间休息，移动最大的负荷，让我们覆盖一系列的负荷区域。”我有点喜欢布拉德·舍恩菲尔德。

I think Brad has done the best work in the hypertrophy realm.

我认为布拉德在增肌领域做得最好。

And training for hypertrophy is one of the best ways to train for, I guess, optimizing metabolic health.

我认为，肌肥大训练是优化代谢健康的最佳训练方法之一。

So, there should be some hypertrophy training included in any program, in my opinion.

因此，我认为任何计划中都应该包含一些肌肥大训练。

So, yeah, it's just what I enjoy, man.

所以，是的，这正是我喜欢的，伙计。

And I realize that it does go against a lot of the typical consensus.

我意识到这确实违背了很多典型的共识。

Andrew Huberman Well, thank you for sharing that.

安德鲁·休伯曼 好的，谢谢您的分享。

I think it highlights, if nothing else, that doing what one enjoys in the realm of fitness and nutrition, is equally important to what's best.

我认为这至少强调了一点：在健身和营养领域做自己喜欢的事情与做到最好同样重要。

Because if you don't enjoy it, you're unlikely to stick to things.

因为如果你不喜欢它，你就不可能坚持下去。

Alan Aragon Big time.

艾伦·阿拉贡 伟大的时光。

Andrew Huberman So, find what you enjoy.

Andrew Huberman 所以，找到你喜欢的东西。

Listen, I want to extend a huge thank you for coming here today.

听着，我想对你们今天来到这里表示衷心的感谢。

This was a long time coming.

这是一个很长的时间。

I always knew from our first in-person meeting that we would do this at some point.

从我们第一次面对面的会议上我就知道我们会在某个时候这样做。

And I'm so glad we're doing this now.

我很高兴我们现在正在这样做。

I must say, you have an absolutely, staggeringly impressive command of the literature.

我必须说，你对文学的掌握绝对令人印象深刻。

Alan Aragon Thank you.

艾伦·阿拉贡 谢谢。

Andrew Huberman Anyone that's listened to this realizes that you don't just say stuff.

安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）任何听过此演讲的人都会意识到你不只是说说而已。

You always precede your statements with the origin of the information that you're about to convey.

你总是在陈述之前注明你要传达的信息的来源。

Whether or not it's your own personal experience and preference, whether it's from a meta-analysis, whether or not it's from a particular study...

无论它是否是您自己的个人经验和偏好，无论它是否来自荟萃分析，无论它是否来自特定研究......

And as an academic, I especially appreciate that you always credit the authors of the study.

作为一名学者，我特别感谢您始终相信该研究的作者。

I know people heard this, but I want to underscore the scholarly nature with which you present evidence and attribution to the original authors of the work.

我知道人们听到了这个，但我想强调您提供证据和归属于该作品的原作者的学术性质。

And it's so clear that you've got your mind wrapped around these massive topics that are of immense confusion to the general public, and importance.

很明显，你的注意力集中在这些对公众来说非常困惑和重要的重大主题上。

And to take us back to something I said at the beginning, when I think of Alan Aragon, I think of immense amounts of knowledge shared, and this immense property of clarifying things for people.

让我们回到我一开始所说的，当我想到艾伦·阿拉贡时，我想到了共享的大量知识，以及为人们澄清事物的巨大特性。

Andrew Huberman Today, you've taught us that protein is extremely important.

Andrew Huberman 今天，您告诉我们蛋白质极其重要。

What qualities of protein exist in different domains of the different food groups, timing of protein intake, timing relative to exercise, timing of exercise, type of exercise.

不同食物组的不同领域存在哪些蛋白质品质、蛋白质摄入时间、相对于运动的时间、运动时间、运动类型。

We talked about collagen, we talked about calorie surplus, deficit.

我们谈论了胶原蛋白，我们谈论了卡路里盈余和赤字。

Yes, you can gain muscle and lose fat simultaneously.

是的，您可以同时增加肌肉和减少脂肪。

And you make this information not just clear, but extremely practical.

您使这些信息不仅清晰，而且非常实用。

So, thank you for the immense amount of information you've provided us today, and that you continue to provide online and elsewhere.

因此，感谢您今天向我们提供的大量信息，以及您继续在网上和其他地方提供的信息。

We, of course, will provide links to where people can learn more about you and from you.

当然，我们将提供链接，人们可以通过这些链接了解有关您以及向您了解更多信息。

And I just want to say, keep going.

我只想说，继续吧。

I value you as a colleague and a friend, and I'm so grateful that you came out here today, and that I said the wrong thing on social media so that we had the opportunity to meet.

我将你视为同事和朋友，我非常感谢你今天来到这里，并且我在社交媒体上说错了话，所以我们有机会见面。

Alan Aragon It goes right back to you, Andrew.

艾伦·阿拉贡 这又回到你身上了，安德鲁。

It is an honor and a pleasure to be here, and I really think that this will bring a lot of value and just thank you for everything.

来到这里是一种荣幸和愉快，我真的认为这会带来很多价值，感谢你们所做的一切。

Andrew Huberman Well, you're most welcome.

安德鲁·休伯曼 嗯，不客气。

It's been a true pleasure.

这真是一种乐趣。

We'll have you back again.

我们会让你再次回来。

Andrew Huberman Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Alan Aragon.

Andrew Huberman 感谢您参加今天与 Alan Aragon 的讨论。

To learn more about Alan's work, and to find links to his articles, and various other resources, please see the show note captions.

要了解有关艾伦工作的更多信息，并查找他的文章和各种其他资源的链接，请参阅节目注释标题。

If you're learning from, and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.

如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。

That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.

这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。

In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple.

此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的关注按钮来关注播客。

And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review, and you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.

在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您可以给我们留下五星级的评论，现在您可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。

Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.

另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。

That's the best way to support this podcast.

这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。

If you have questions for me, or comments about the podcast, or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.

如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客有意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑嘉宾或主题，请将这些内容放在 YouTube 的评论部分。

I do read all the comments.

我确实阅读了所有评论。

For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.

对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。

It's my very first book.

这是我的第一本书。

It's entitled Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body.

它的标题是《协议：人体操作手册》。

This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.

这本书是我花了五年多时间编写的，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验。

Andrew Huberman And it covers protocols for everything from sleep, to exercise, to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation.

Andrew Huberman 它涵盖了从睡眠、锻炼、压力控制、与注意力和动机相关的各个方面的协议。

And of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.

当然，我还为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。

The book is now available by pre-sale at ProtocolsBook.com.

该书现已在 ProtocolsBook.com 上预售。

There, you can find links to various vendors.

在那里，您可以找到各个供应商的链接。

You can pick the one that you like best.

您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。

Again, the book is called Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body.

同样，这本书的名字是《协议：人体操作手册》。

And if you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.

如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。

So, that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.

这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。

And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast.

在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。

Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.

同样，所有社交媒体平台上都是 Huberman Lab。

Andrew Huberman And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries, as well as what we call protocols, in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.

Andrew Huberman 如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的协议，以一到三页的 PDF 形式，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、刻意冷暴露等所有内容。

We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training, and resistance training.

我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。

All of that is available completely zero cost.

所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。

You simply go to HubermanLab.com, go to the menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email.

您只需访问 HubermanLab.com，转到右上角的菜单选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件。

And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.

我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。

Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Alan Aragon.

再次感谢您参加今天与艾伦·阿拉贡的讨论。

And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。