How to Improve Your Vitality & Heal From Disease | Dr. Mark Hyman

Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。

Thanks, Andrew.

谢谢，安德鲁。

It's so good to be here.

来到这里真是太好了。

Great to see you.

很高兴见到你。

We go back a few years.

我们回到几年前。

Yeah, like almost 10.

是的，差不多有10个。

Yeah.

是的。

It's been awesome to see your arc, and you were at it long before I met you.

看到你的弧线真是太棒了，早在我遇见你之前你就已经做到了。

I think to kick things off, probably best if you explain to people what functional medicine is and what your orientation towards health and medicine is, because I think there are a few misconceptions out there, both about functional health and you.

我认为，首先，最好向人们解释什么是功能医学以及您对健康和医学的定位是什么，因为我认为对于功能健康和您来说，存在一些误解。

But I think also you provide a very unique perspective.

但我认为你也提供了一个非常独特的视角。

Yeah, thank you, Andrew.

是的，谢谢你，安德鲁。

And I would say that I didn't choose what I'm doing, it chose me.

And I would say that I didn't choose what I'm doing, it chose me.

I was super healthy, fit, riding my bike 100 miles a day.

I was super healthy, fit, riding my bike 100 miles a day.

I was 36 years old and then wham, I got really sick.

我当时 36 岁了，然后突然，我病得很厉害。

And I went from being able to memorize 30 patients in a day and dictate their notes and ride my bike 100 miles to not knowing where I was at the end of a sentence, and not being able to barely walk up the stairs, and I got hit with chronic fatigue syndrome.

我从每天能够记住 30 个病人、听写他们的笔记、骑自行车 100 英里，到在句子结束时不知道自己在哪里，甚至无法勉强走上楼梯，我患上了慢性疲劳综合症。

And I tried to figure out what it was.

我试图弄清楚那是什么。

I went to doctors at Harvard, at Columbia, here and everywhere.

I went to doctors at Harvard, at Columbia, here and everywhere.

And they all like, you're depressed, take some Prozac, this and that.

他们都喜欢，你很沮丧，吃点百忧解，这个那个。

And I realized that traditional medicine wasn't having the answers.

And I realized that traditional medicine wasn't having the answers.

And even though I sort of came from the perspective of a yoga teacher before I was a doctor, I studied Buddhism.

尽管在成为医生之前我是从瑜伽老师的角度出发的，但我还是研究了佛教。

A yoga teacher?

瑜伽老师？

I was.

我是。

It was back in the '80s.

那是在 80 年代。

You're a tall guy, long mat.

你是个高个子，长垫子。

They didn't have yoga mats when I was doing yoga.

They didn't have yoga mats when I was doing yoga.

You put a towel on the ground.

你把毛巾放在地上。

There was no Lululemon.

没有露露柠檬。

It was on top of the East West Bookstore in New York City.

它位于纽约市东西方书店的楼顶。

There was like one yoga class in the early '80s.

八十年代初有一堂瑜伽课。

That was it.

就是这样。

And I studied Buddhism in college, but I also studied systems thinking and systems theory, and Gregory Bateson and the nature of the network effect of life and biology and everything else.

我在大学里学习了佛教，但我也研究了系统思维和系统理论、格雷戈里·贝特森以及生命和生物学的网络效应的本质以及其他一切。

And so I went through medical school, but when I came out, I was pretty straight, traditional medicine doctor.

所以我读了医学院，但当我出来时，我是一个非常正直的传统医学医生。

Things are changing.

事情正在发生变化。

Things are changing.

事情正在发生变化。

Slowly, but they're changing.

慢慢地，但他们正在改变。

I think, which sort of dovetails with the question I was going to ask, which is how did the medical establishment view this stuff?

我想，这与我要问的问题相吻合，即医疗机构如何看待这个问题？

These days it's so complicated without taking off on a tangent here.

如今，事情变得如此复杂，没有切线。

The word expert is gated politically.

专家这个词是受到政治限制的。

Like one side feels like you can only be called expert if you're with their camp.

一方面感觉好像只有你站在他们的阵营中才能被称为专家。

The other side is now associated with more of a wellness aspect.

另一面现在更多地与健康方面相关。

And I don't even have to say which side I'm referring to here.

我什至不必说我在这里指的是哪一方。

And it's become a real clash of we only believe in randomized control trials or there's clearly evidence that nutrition matters.

我们只相信随机对照试验，还是有明确证据表明营养很重要，这已经成为真正的冲突。

And it's like, of course, both things are important.

当然，这两件事都很重要。

And so what you're describing here is that you--

所以你在这里描述的是你——

This intersection.

这个路口。

This intersection.

这个路口。

And there really isn't a political home for the intersection unfortunately.

不幸的是，这个十字路口确实没有政治归宿。

Maybe in these new--

也许在这些新的——

I didn't know cells had a political ideology.

我不知道细胞有政治意识形态。

That's right.

这是正确的。

That's right.

这是正确的。

No that's right.

不，没错。

They got the red cell and the blue cell.

他们得到了红细胞和蓝细胞。

Exactly.

确切地。

And that's what I love about you, is that you have friends in both camps, and you're willing to trudge forward.

这就是我喜欢你的一点，那就是你在两个阵营都有朋友，而且你愿意艰难前行。

What did the medical establishment think?

医疗机构怎么想的？

And how many of you are there now?

你们现在有多少人？

Yeah.

是的。

It's a great question.

这是一个很好的问题。

I mean, I remember talking about leaky gut almost 30 years ago and talking to allergist and immunologist.

我的意思是，我记得大约 30 年前谈论过肠漏症，并与过敏症专家和免疫学家交谈过。

People thought you were crazy.

人们认为你疯了。

And people thought I was a loony tune.

人们认为我是一首疯狂的曲子。

Same thing with chronic fatigue, by the way.

顺便说一句，慢性疲劳也是如此。

I remember when chronic fatigue syndrome was considered a psychosomatic, people are crazy if they think they have this.

我记得当慢性疲劳综合症被认为是一种心身疾病时，如果人们认为自己患有这种疾病，他们就会发疯。

And we now know like fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, and leaky gut, this all used to be-- for those that are listening and a little bit younger than Mark and I-- that that was considered pseudoscience, just the whole notion.

我们现在知道，就像纤维肌痛、慢性疲劳和肠漏一样，对于那些比马克和我年轻一点的人来说，这一切过去都被认为是伪科学，只是整个概念。

There are now departments at major university medical centers devoted to each one of these.

现在主要大学医疗中心都设有专门负责其中每一项的部门。

That's right.

这是正确的。

Maybe not whole departments, but sectors within departments.

也许不是整个部门，而是部门内的部门。

Yeah, I think it's crazy how things have changed.

是的，我认为事情的变化真是太疯狂了。

And so now you have people who are talking about mitochondria in medicine, people like Christopher Palmer, who's a Harvard professor, a psychiatrist who's studying psychiatric disease and the application of diet and nutrition to treat bipolar disorder and schizophrenia, or--

现在有人在谈论医学中的线粒体，比如克里斯托弗·帕尔默（Christopher Palmer），他是哈佛大学教授，也是一位精神病学家，研究精神疾病以及饮食和营养在治疗双相情感障碍和精神分裂症中的应用，或者——

I will say, Stanford-- sorry to cut you off-- now has a division within our Department of Psychiatry on metabolic psychiatry.

我想说，斯坦福大学——很抱歉打断你的话——现在我们精神病学系内有一个代谢精神病学部门。

In large part thanks to Chris's work.

这在很大程度上要归功于克里斯的工作。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

And yeah.

是的。

And so metabolic psychiatry is about the role of insulin resistance and inflammation in the brain as causing depression and causing anxiety and more severe things like bipolar disease and schizophrenia.

因此，代谢精神病学研究的是胰岛素抵抗和大脑炎症在导致抑郁、焦虑以及双相情感障碍和精神分裂症等更严重疾病中的作用。

And these are the things that I saw in my patients.

这些是我在病人身上看到的事情。

So I wasn't an academic, but I would just look at their story and listen to it.

所以我不是学者，但我只是看看他们的故事并听听。

And I would look at the underlying biology because you talk about this intersection of the biohacking wellness in medical community.

我会研究基础生物学，因为你谈到了医学界生物黑客健康的交叉点。

Lee Hood has a term for this.

Lee Hood对此有一个术语。

He calls it scientific wellness.

他称之为科学健康。

I'd like to take a quick break and thank our sponsor, Joovv.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 Joovv。

Joovv makes medical grade red light therapy devices.

Joovv 生产医疗级红光治疗设备。

Now, if there's one thing that I have consistently emphasized on this podcast, it is the incredible impact that light can have on our biology.

现在，如果我在这个播客中一直强调一件事，那就是光对我们的生物学产生的令人难以置信的影响。

Now, in addition to sunlight, red light and near-infrared light sources have been shown to have positive effects on improving numerous aspects of cellular and organ health, including faster muscle recovery, improved skin health and wound healing, improvements in acne, reduced pain and inflammation, even mitochondrial function, and improving vision itself.

现在，除了阳光之外，红光和近红外光源已被证明对改善细胞和器官健康的许多方面具有积极作用，包括更快的肌肉恢复、改善皮肤健康和伤口愈合、改善痤疮、减少疼痛和炎症，甚至线粒体功能，以及改善视力本身。

For example, can I tell you a quick story?

例如，我可以给你讲一个简短的故事吗？

Please?

请？

I want to tell a story about a patient I had at Cleveland Clinic, which actually, by the way, was amazing that Toby Cosgrove, who's one of the most renowned figures in medicine was the CEO of Cleveland Clinic for years, invited me to come start a center for functional medicine there.

我想讲一个关于我在克利夫兰诊所的一位患者的故事，顺便说一句，托比·科斯格罗夫（Toby Cosgrove）是医学界最著名的人物之一，多年来担任克利夫兰诊所的首席执行官，他邀请我在那里创办一个功能医学中心，这真是太神奇了。

And been 10 years now, we've done a ton of research.

十年过去了，我们已经做了大量的研究。

This one patient came to see me and she had a whole list of problems.

这位病人来找我，她有一系列的问题。

And that's why I jokingly call myself a holistic doctor, because I take care of people with a whole list of problems.

这就是为什么我开玩笑地称自己为一名整体医生，因为我照顾患有一系列问题的人。

I want to know everything.

我想知道一切。

And functional medicine is inclusive rather than exclusive.

功能医学是包容性的而不是排他性的。

It's like rather than discarding things that don't fit your diagnosis, we want to know everything about you of how you're born, whether you're breastfed, whether you took antibiotics, any traumas, any toxins you're exposed to, whether you eat fish, like, we want to know everything.

这就像我们不想丢弃不符合您的诊断的东西，而是想了解您的一切，例如您是如何出生的，您是否母乳喂养，您是否服用抗生素，任何创伤，您接触过的任何毒素，您是否吃鱼，例如，我们想知道一切。

Right, right.

对，对。

But she was on Stelara, which cost costs $50,000 a year.

但她使用的是 Stelara，每年费用为 5 万美元。

It's a biologic.

这是一种生物制剂。

She was on a host of other drugs from her psychiatrist, from her migraine doctor, for her irritable bowel, for her reflux.

她还服用了精神科医生和偏头痛医生提供的许多其他药物来治疗肠易激和反流。

I mean, it was like a whole pile of pills.

我的意思是，它就像一大堆药丸。

She was off everything, and she had no symptoms, and she was all better, and she lost 20 pounds.

她戒掉了一切，没有任何症状，而且一切都好多了，而且体重减轻了 20 磅。

And it wasn't an anomaly or a miracle.

这并不是异常现象，也不是奇迹。

It was just following the principles of how the body works.

它只是遵循身体运作的原理。

And in that textbook "Network Medicine," they talk about how we need to understand mechanisms and causes, not just symptoms and diagnoses.

在教科书《网络医学》中，他们讨论了我们如何需要理解机制和原因，而不仅仅是症状和诊断。

And we need to understand that there's multi causality for different problems.

我们需要明白，不同的问题存在多种因果关系。

Well, and a lot of physicians, unlike you, frankly, don't look very healthy, which people can say, OK, well, it shouldn't be about looks.

嗯，坦率地说，很多医生，与你不同，看起来不太健康，人们可能会说，好吧，这不应该是关于外表的。

But if I was at the dentist and I look up and my dentist is snaggle-toothed and decaying teeth, doesn't bring me a lot of confidence.

但如果我去看牙医，抬头一看，我的牙医牙齿参差不齐，而且牙齿已经腐烂，这并不会给我带来很大的信心。

I look pretty good for 100, huh?

100分我看起来还不错吧？

You look great.

你看起来棒极了。

And you're super vital.

而且你非常有活力。

I think, this idea of systems biology and health is really important for people to understand because I always say-- well, there are two sayings, I didn't say the first.

我认为，系统生物学和健康的概念对于人们理解非常重要，因为我总是说——嗯，有两种说法，我没有说第一种。

The first one was taught to me when I was a graduate student, which is, a drug is a substance that, when injected into an animal or human, produces a scientific paper.

第一个是我在读研究生时学到的，即药物是一种物质，当注射到动物或人类体内时，会产生一篇科学论文。

So you're saying the scientific process itself precludes us from really understanding things, because we can't study things in the way that need to be studied?

所以你是说科学过程本身阻碍了我们真正理解事物，因为我们无法以需要研究的方式研究事物？

Well, yeah.

嗯，是的。

Let's say you come into my lab and I want to study how increasing L-carnitine, for instance, impacts your mood, immune system function and sleep.

例如，假设您来到我的实验室，我想研究增加左旋肉碱如何影响您的情绪、免疫系统功能和睡眠。

I can do that study, but even that is just an infinitely complex study.

我可以做这项研究，但即便如此，这也只是一项无限复杂的研究。

I could do dose response, I could probably do oral versus injectable, and then unless it's in laboratory animals on a same genetic background, I can't control whether or not one person's having a Snickers and the other person is having a Snickers and telling me, and then one person's lying.

我可以做剂量反应，我可能可以做口服与注射，然后除非是在具有相同遗传背景的实验动物中进行，否则我无法控制一个人是否在喝士力架，而另一个人在喝士力架并告诉我，然后一个人在撒谎。

I mean, it is so hard to do controlled science.

我的意思是，进行受控科学非常困难。

Great question.

很好的问题。

Where do you start?

你从哪里开始？

You start with how you're sleeping, how you're eating, skin tone.

首先从你的睡眠方式、饮食方式和肤色开始。

I imagine you can look at somebody and get a sense of their vibrancy at the level of their eyes.

我想你可以通过观察某人的眼睛来感受到他们的活力。

Where do you start?

你从哪里开始？

I can tell people's blood work sometimes just by looking at them.

有时我只需观察就能知道人们的血液工作情况。

There you go.

就这样吧。

So where do you start?

那么你从哪里开始呢？

When we look in the mirror in the morning, what are we looking for?

当我们早上照镜子时，我们在寻找什么？

I think that's a great question.

我认为这是一个很好的问题。

I think that just to back up one second, I think you talked about putting high dose of something in or a lack of sleep.

我想，只是为了支持一秒钟，我想你谈到了服用高剂量的东西或缺乏睡眠。

Functional medicine is about understanding the answer to very simple questions, and then designing a treatment model based on the answers to those questions.

功能医学是关于理解非常简单问题的答案，然后根据这些问题的答案设计治疗模型。

And the questions are one, what are you exposed to that's interrupting your normal function?

问题是，您遇到了什么干扰了您的正常功能？

Hence functional medicine.

因此功能医学。

What is this bugging you?

这到底是怎么回事？

What's pissing your system off?

是什么让你的系统生气了？

And there's a short list Andrew.

还有一个简短的名单安德鲁。

It's toxins, and it can be internal endogenous toxins or external toxins, like heavy metals or pesticides or glyphosate or a million other things.

它是毒素，它可以是内部的内源性毒素或外部毒素，例如重金属或杀虫剂或草甘膦或一百万种其他物质。

It's infections or microbes.

这是感染或微生物。

No, not yet.

不，还没有。

We haven't had Gabor on.

我们还没有让加博上场。

No, but we've had a number of people talking about the relationship between mind and body and stress, and certainly it's a profound connection.

不，但我们已经有很多人谈论了身心与压力之间的关系，当然这是一种深刻的联系。

So you have this list of five things that interacts with your genome and is really what we call the exposome.

因此，您列出了与您的基因组相互作用的五种事物，这实际上就是我们所说的暴露体。

What your genes are exposed to is far more predictive than your genome.

你的基因所接触到的东西比你的基因组更具预测性。

Your exposome includes sum total of everything you're exposed to on the positive and the negative.

您的暴露组包括您所接触到的所有阳性和阴性物质的总和。

All the things I just listed but also all the ingredients for health.

我刚才列出的所有东西，还有所有有益于健康的成分。

So I identify what are the impediments for health and then what are the ingredients for health.

因此，我确定了健康的障碍是什么，然后健康的成分是什么。

And the ingredients for health are not that complicated.

而健康的成分并没有那么复杂。

We're biological organisms.

我们是生物有机体。

Despite trying to live outside of our biological constraints, we need the right kind of food.

尽管我们试图摆脱生物限制，但我们仍然需要正确的食物。

What does that look like?

那看起来像什么？

Michael Pollan said eat food, mostly plants, not too much.

迈克尔·波伦说吃食物，主要是植物，不要太多。

Or not too much, mostly plants, something like that.

或者不要太多，主要是植物之类的。

And it's basically eating foods that's as close to nature as you can find it.

它基本上就是吃尽可能接近自然的食物。

Grew out of the ground or had a pulse.

从地里长出来或者有脉搏。

Yeah, basically right.

是的，基本上是对的。

He says, eat food that's grown in a plant not made in a plant.

他说，吃植物生长的食物，而不是植物制造的食物。

And I used to lecture at these churches, and I'd say it's really simple to figure out what to eat.

我曾经在这些教堂演讲，我想说，弄清楚吃什么真的很简单。

Ask yourself, did God make it or did man make it?

问问自己，是上帝创造的还是人创造的？

Did God make a Twinkie?

上帝创造了Twinkie吗？

No. Did he make an avocado?

不，他做了鳄梨吗？

Yes.

是的。

Would our ancestors recognize it?

我们的祖先会认识到这一点吗？

Yeah like, would your great grandmother know what a Lunchable was or a Go-Gurt was?

是的，你的曾祖母知道什么是 Lunchable 或 Go-Gurt 吗？

So this generally means eating foods that are single ingredient foods or foods that combine--

所以这通常意味着吃单一成分的食物或组合的食物——

Combine single ingredients.

混合单一成分。

Single ingredient foods.

单一成分食品。

Like you look at the label.

就像你看标签一样。

I read the labels.

我读了标签。

You look at it, do I recognize this?

你看一下，我认得这个吗？

Would I have this in my kitchen?

我会把这个放在厨房里吗？

Do I have butylated hydroxytoluene in my kitchen or red dye number 3?

我的厨房里有丁基羟基甲苯或 3 号红色染料吗？

Probably not.

可能不会。

Right?

正确的？

Unless you're a grandma making cupcakes that are really red.

除非你是一位奶奶，制作的纸杯蛋糕非常红。

But so food--

但食物——

Fruit, vegetables, meat, fish--

水果、蔬菜、肉类、鱼类——

Fruit, vegetables.

水果、蔬菜。

Yeah.

是的。

Quality dairy.

优质乳制品。

Yeah.

是的。

I mean, I've written so many books on this.

我的意思是，我已经写了很多这方面的书。

"The Pegan Diet," "Food-- What the Heck Should I Eat?" I wanted to call it food-- what the fuck should I eat?

“佩根饮食”、“食物——我到底应该吃什么？”我想称之为食物——我到底该吃什么？

But my publisher wouldn't let me.

但我的出版商不让我这么做。

Nowadays they probably would.

现在他们可能会的。

I feel like they curse everywhere.

我感觉他们到处咒骂。

So there's like-- we can dive into nutrition, but just assume depending on your age and your sex and what you're doing with your life, you need the right nutrition of whole, real food.

所以，我们可以深入研究营养，但假设根据你的年龄、性别以及你的生活，你需要完整、真正的食物的正确营养。

Can I just ask you-- we'll just quickly double click into there-- what's your view on seed oils?

我可以问你——我们只需快速双击那里——你对种子油有何看法？

Oi.

哎呀。

Just, you know, I mean, I'll say mine.

只是，你知道，我的意思是，我会说我的。

I like olive oil and butter.

我喜欢橄榄油和黄油。

Coconut oil and things like avocados and some Brazil nuts and walnuts and stuff.

椰子油和鳄梨之类的东西以及一些巴西坚果和核桃之类的东西。

So since I don't count calories, I kind of have an intuitive sense of what I'm taking in, how much fat, how much protein, how much starch, how much fibers, carbs, et cetera.

因为我不计算卡路里，所以我对自己摄入的东西有一种直观的感觉，有多少脂肪、多少蛋白质、多少淀粉、多少纤维、碳水化合物等等。

So for me, I wouldn't pick canola oil because I could pick olive oil.

所以对我来说，我不会选择菜籽油，因为我可以选择橄榄油。

And I make sure it's real olive oil.

我确保它是真正的橄榄油。

But I don't think seed oils necessarily will kill me.

但我不认为种子油一定会杀了我。

But guess why I know they won't kill me, because I don't eat them.

但猜猜为什么我知道它们不会杀我，因为我不吃它们。

We should be eating whole food fats as much as possible.

我们应该尽可能多地吃全食物脂肪。

Avocados, coconut, nuts and seeds, omega 3 fats from fish, olive oil, which is the most minimally processed oil you can get-- extra virgin olive oil.

鳄梨、椰子、坚果和种子、来自鱼的 Omega 3 脂肪、橄榄油，这是您可以获得的加工程度最低的油——特级初榨橄榄油。

And we're eating nuts and seeds.

我们正在吃坚果和种子。

We're getting a lot of omega 6.

我们摄入了大量的欧米伽 6。

So the big theory behind seed oils is that it's omega 6 rich, it's imbalanced with omega 3, it causes inflammation, the way they're produced and grown is problematic.

因此，种子油背后的重要理论是，它富含欧米伽 6，与欧米伽 3 不平衡，会引起炎症，而且它们的生产和生长方式存在问题。

They're usually GMO crops like canola oil.

它们通常是转基因作物，如菜籽油。

They spray lots of chemicals on them.

他们向他们喷洒大量化学物质。

Those chemicals get in the oil.

这些化学物质会进入油中。

And what it's replacing.

以及它正在取代什么。

Sorry to interrupt here, but I'll see the data that seed oils are better for people than butter.

抱歉打扰一下，但我会看到数据表明种子油比黄油对人们更好。

OK, I like grass-fed butter, but I don't eat it in excess.

好吧，我喜欢草饲黄油，但我不会吃过量。

I once joked about that, and they're like-- I made some jokes early on on having a podcast, not realizing the implications.

我曾经开过玩笑，他们就像——我在播客的早期开了一些玩笑，但没有意识到其中的含义。

But anyway, I'm very careful now.

但无论如何，我现在非常小心。

I have some butter in moderation.

我有适量的黄油。

But so I could imagine that if you're eating a lot of lard and butter and bacon fat and you replace it with seed oils, you'll get healthier.

但我可以想象，如果你吃了很多猪油、黄油和培根脂肪，然后用种子油代替，你会变得更健康。

Maybe.

或许。

Maybe.

或许。

But you could imagine-- I guess it depends on what else you're ingesting, because the starch, fat combination is the one that gets people, in my opinion.

但你可以想象——我想这取决于你还摄入了什么，因为在我看来，淀粉和脂肪的组合才是最能吸引人的。

That's right.

这是正确的。

But somebody could be eating a lot of meat and fruit.

但有人可能会吃很多肉和水果。

No, don't eat your butter with a bagel, put it on your broccoli, because the saturated fat, refined starch combo is what's killing us.

不，不要把黄油和百吉饼一起吃，而是把它放在西兰花上，因为饱和脂肪和精制淀粉的组合正在杀死我们。

I wish people would really hear you on this.

我希望人们能真正听到你的声音。

It's not fat, per se.

本身并不胖。

It's not starches, per se.

它本身不是淀粉。

It's the combination of fat and starch and in particular fat, starch and sugar.

它是脂肪和淀粉的组合，特别是脂肪、淀粉和糖的组合。

Yeah.

是的。

Well starch and sugar, below the neck your body can't tell if it's a bowl of sugar or a bowl of cornflakes or a bagel or a bowl of sugar.

好吧，淀粉和糖，在脖子以下，您的身体无法分辨这是一碗糖还是一碗玉米片或百吉饼还是一碗糖。

If I put a pat of butter on a bowl of white rice, is it that bad?

如果我在一碗白米饭上放一点黄油，有那么糟糕吗？

No, not really.

不，不是真的。

OK.

好的。

But if I put a pad of butter on a muffin, it's bad news bears.

但如果我在松饼上放一块黄油，那对熊来说就是个坏消息。

Yeah, you're doubling down on the sugar.

是的，你加倍加糖。

And I think to answer your question about the seed oil, the data is not really completely answering this.

我认为要回答你关于种子油的问题，数据并没有真正完全回答这个问题。

And that's part of the problem with nutrition.

这就是营养问题的一部分。

There's not enough nutrition science.

营养科学还不够。

The one large randomized controlled trial that was done on 9,000 people, not on 90 people or 50 people or 30 people, which a lot of these studies are, but on 9,000 people that were randomized in a psychiatric hospital, it would be unethical to do today.

这是一项针对 9,000 人进行的大型随机对照试验，而不是针对 90 人、50 人或 30 人（很多此类研究都是针对 9,000 人），而是在精神病院随机分配的 9,000 人进行，今天这样做是不道德的。

It was done by Ancel Keys.

这是安塞尔·凯斯（Ancel Keys）完成的。

It was the Minnesota coronary experiment, funded by the NIH, where they basically gave half the group butter and half the group corn oil.

这是明尼苏达州的冠状动脉实验，由美国国立卫生研究院资助，他们基本上给了一半的黄油和一半的玉米油。

Now, corn oil is a pure omega 6 oil.

现在，玉米油是纯欧米伽 6 油。

As opposed to soybean, which makes omega 3, canola makes omega 6 oils.

与大豆产生欧米伽 3 不同，菜籽油产生欧米伽 6 油。

Yeah, well, we evolved under the major constraint of sunrise and sunset.

是的，我们是在日出和日落的主要限制下进化的。

That's right.

这是正确的。

And artificial lighting is a wonderful thing, but I think there's highly processed light.

人工照明是一件很棒的事情，但我认为这是经过高度处理的光。

It's devoid of long wavelengths.

它没有长波长。

The eradication, basically, of incandescent bulbs and all these LEDs--

基本上，消灭白炽灯泡和所有这些 LED——

Highly processed light--

经过高度加工的光——

--and daylight savings times.

——以及夏令时。

It's really messing people up.

实在是太坑人了。

And then you say, oh, it's just an hour.

然后你说，哦，只有一个小时。

No, actually, it's your mental health.

不，实际上，这是你的心理健康。

When it comes to the seed oil thing, I actually predict that seed oils will lose.

当谈到种子油的时候，我实际上预测种子油将会失败。

I think in the end it's just obvious.

我认为最终这是显而易见的。

Like, why wouldn't people just say, you know what?

就像，为什么人们不直接说，你知道吗？

This seed oil thing may or may not be a problem.

这种种子油可能是问题，也可能不是问题。

I'm just going to eat olive oil and a little bit of butter.

我只吃橄榄油和一点黄油。

Yeah, that's kind of my view.

是的，这就是我的观点。

It seems so simple to me.

对我来说这似乎很简单。

That's my view.

这是我的观点。

My view is if you have a new to nature kind of compound or an unnaturally high amount of something that we're having in our diet, I mean, sugar was always around.

我的观点是，如果我们的饮食中有一种新的天然化合物或异常大量的东西，我的意思是，糖总是存在的。

We would get honey, whatever, but we'd have 22 teaspoons a year as hunter-gatherers.

我们会得到蜂蜜，无论如何，但作为狩猎采集者，我们每年会得到 22 茶匙。

Now, we have that every day for every American.

现在，我们每天都为每个美国人提供这样的东西。

If you had a magic wand and you could get rid of seed oils, or you could get rid of highly refined sugars in modern American diet, which one--

如果你有一根魔杖，你可以摆脱种子油，或者你可以摆脱现代美国饮食中的高度精制的糖，哪一个——

Yeah, no contest.

是的，没有比赛。

It's starch and sugar that's driving our metabolic crisis by huge factor.

淀粉和糖是导致我们代谢危机的重要因素。

By huge factor.

通过巨大的因素。

Does that mean no pasta?

这是否意味着没有面食？

No bread?

没有面包吗？

It doesn't mean no anything.

并不意味着什么都没有。

It just means the volume of stuff we're eating.

它只是意味着我们正在吃的东西的数量。

It's like we're eating pharmacologic doses.

这就像我们正在吃药理剂量一样。

It's 152 pounds of sugar and 133 pounds of flour, which has a higher glycemic index than sugar.

它含有 152 磅糖和 133 磅面粉，其血糖指数比糖更高。

Really?

真的吗？

Yeah.

是的。

Well, that's how it's set.

嗯，就是这么设定的。

It's set at white bread as 100 and then sugar is 80 because it's fructose and glucose.

白面包设置为 100，糖设置为 80，因为它是果糖和葡萄糖。

So you have to break that apart, and so your glycemic load which is how it affects your blood sugar.

所以你必须将其分开，以及你的血糖负荷，这就是它如何影响你的血糖。

Fructose doesn't raise your blood sugar, glucose raises your blood sugar.

果糖不会升高血糖，葡萄糖会升高血糖。

So where did we go wrong?

那么我们到底错在哪里呢？

Because I was a teen in the '90s.

因为我是 90 年代的青少年。

Until I discovered fitness, I didn't eat poorly at home.

在我发现健身之前，我在家吃得并不差。

My mom cooked whole food.

我妈妈煮全食物。

Pop Tarts, Kraft Macaroni and Cheese.

馅饼、卡夫通心粉和奶酪。

We weren't allowed that stuff.

我们不允许那些东西。

Tang, Fleischmann's margarine.

唐，弗莱施曼的人造黄油。

We weren't allowed that, but we had our Honey Nut Cheerios.

我们不被允许这样做，但我们有蜂蜜坚果麦片。

preserved.

保存下来。

We had our Honey Nut Cheerios and things like that, but we ate mostly whole foods.

我们吃了蜂蜜坚果麦片和类似的东西，但我们吃的大部分是天然食品。

And then not from-- there wasn't a Whole Foods Market back then, but whole, unprocessed, or minimally processed foods.

然后不是来自——当时没有全食市场，而是完整的、未加工的或最低限度加工的食品。

But I ate my fair share of pizza slices and burritos in college and stuff like that.

但我在大学里吃了相当多的披萨片和墨西哥卷饼之类的东西。

And I was active, but I wasn't a serious athlete.

我很活跃，但我不是一个认真的运动员。

But then somewhere around 2010 forward, I feel like everything-- again, just to be very direct, there was probably one kid or two kids in my school that were obese.

但到了 2010 年左右，我感觉一切都一样——再说一次，非常直接地说，我的学校里可能有一两个孩子肥胖。

Now, depending on where you live, you see 60, 70, 80% of kids are obese.

现在，根据您居住的地方，您会发现 60%、70%、80% 的孩子患有肥胖症。

I mean, what happened?

我的意思是，发生了什么事？

I want to answer that, and then I want to come back to the loop of what I was trying to complete on the big thought of, how does the body work and how do you create health and what do you do?

我想回答这个问题，然后我想回到我试图完成的大循环，即身体如何工作、如何创造健康以及你会做什么？

Because you asked me that question.

因为你问了我这个问题。

I didn't want to lose that question.

我不想失去这个问题。

What happened was there was this rise in cardiovascular disease in America.

发生的事情是美国心血管疾病的增加。

And there was this thought that saturated fat and fat was the bad guy.

有人认为饱和脂肪和脂肪是坏人。

And this was the McGovern Report in the '70s that went on to be the dietary guidelines, that went on to be the food pyramid.

这就是 70 年代的麦戈文报告，后来成为饮食指南，后来成为食物金字塔。

And the food pyramid essentially told us that fat was the enemy.

食物金字塔本质上告诉我们，脂肪是敌人。

So it's only at the very tippy top, fats and oils sparingly.

所以它只在最顶端，脂肪和油很少。

Bottom of the pyramid was 6 to 11 servings of bread, rice, cereal and pasta a day.

金字塔底层是每天 6 到 11 份面包、米饭、麦片和面食。

Which sounds like a recipe for being hungry all the time.

这听起来像是一直饥饿的秘诀。

And being obese.

并且肥胖。

Now, we didn't know at the time, but it became really clear that that was a bad idea pretty quick.

现在，我们当时并不知道，但很快就很清楚这是一个坏主意。

And the hockey stick rise in obesity, type 2 diabetes tracks perfectly with that information.

肥胖症、2 型糖尿病的发病率上升与该信息完美吻合。

The American public trusted the government.

美国公众信任政府。

They trusted the scientists.

他们信任科学家。

And when they said, fat's bad, carbs are good, everybody listened.

当他们说“脂肪不好，碳水化合物好”时，每个人都听了。

Eggs are bad.

鸡蛋不好。

Eggs are bad, fat's bad, cholesterol is bad, red meats.

鸡蛋不好，脂肪不好，胆固醇不好，红肉也不好。

So people ate less red meat, they ate less eggs, they ate less fat, and then we got SnackWell cookies.

所以人们少吃红肉，少吃鸡蛋，少吃脂肪，然后我们就得到了 SnackWell 饼干。

We got low fat ice cream and like.

我们吃了低脂冰淇淋之类的。

And the sugar just went through the roof.

糖刚刚冲破了屋顶。

And so that's when you see this explosive rise.

这就是你看到这种爆炸式增长的时候。

And there's other factors.

还有其他因素。

Our microbiome affects our weight.

我们的微生物群影响我们的体重。

Environmental toxins affect our metabolism.

环境毒素影响我们的新陈代谢。

So there's a whole bunch of things happened in tandem.

所以有很多事情同时发生。

But that probably is the single biggest thing.

但这可能是最重要的事情。

So if someone asking from me, should I worry about soybean oil or sugar and starch, it's 100% sugar and starch.

所以如果有人问我，我应该担心大豆油还是糖和淀粉，我说的是100%糖和淀粉。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。

I recently became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.

在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我最近成为了 Function 成员。

While I've long been a fan of blood testing, I really wanted to find a more in-depth program for analyzing my blood, urine, and saliva to get a fuller picture of my heart health, my hormone status, my immune regulation status, my metabolic function, my vitamin and mineral status, and other critical areas of my overall health and vitality.

虽然我长期以来一直热衷于血液检测，但我真的很想找到一个更深入的程序来分析我的血液、尿液和唾液，以更全面地了解我的心脏健康、我的激素状态、我的免疫调节状态、我的代谢功能、我的维生素和矿物质状态以及我整体健康和活力的其他关键领域。

Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors.

Function 不仅提供对身心健康至关重要的 100 多种生物标志物的测试，而且还分析这些结果并提供顶级医生的见解。

Yeah.

是的。

Was a disaster.

真是一场灾难。

Was a disaster.

真是一场灾难。

And I wrote a book called "Eat Fat, Get Thin," where I cataloged the whole history of how we got there and what the problems were and what the science is telling us about what we should be eating, about reconsidering saturated fat being bad.

我写了一本名为《吃胖，变瘦》的书，我在其中记录了我们如何达到这一目标的整个历史，问题是什么，以及科学告诉我们应该吃什么，以及重新考虑饱和脂肪是有害的。

It's bad if you're eating it in the context of starch and sugar.

如果你在含有淀粉和糖的情况下吃它，那就不好了。

For most people it's not.

对于大多数人来说并非如此。

And if you're obese or metabolically unhealthy, it actually can be better for you.

如果您肥胖或代谢不健康，它实际上可能对您更好。

There's a lower risk of diabetes and epidemiological studies with butter and milk fat.

流行病学研究显示，黄油和乳脂的患糖尿病风险较低。

So I think we have to-- I know nutrition is a very complicated subject, but--

所以我认为我们必须——我知道营养是一个非常复杂的话题，但是——

Or not.

或者不是。

Right?

正确的？

I don't know.

我不知道。

I'm beginning to think that nutrition is a very straightforward subject.

我开始认为营养是一个非常简单的主题。

It should be.

应该是的。

It should be.

应该是的。

Yeah.

是的。

I confess I've had some pretty diametrically opposed views from guests on this podcast.

我承认我在这个播客上听到了一些截然相反的观点。

We had Robert Lustig on the podcast.

我们的播客中有罗伯特·勒斯蒂格。

We had Layne Norton on the podcast.

我们的播客中有莱恩·诺顿。

You get those two on separate podcasts and they are like at loggerheads with one another.

你在不同的播客上看到这两个人，他们就像彼此不和。

Now, Layne's correct in that total caloric load matters.

现在，莱恩认为总热量负荷很重要，这是正确的。

It's not everything, but it matters.

这不是一切，但很重要。

I would say many people have a hard time limiting their intake of starchy carbohydrates, especially if you put a little bit of fat on there.

我想说，很多人都很难限制淀粉类碳水化合物的摄入量，尤其是如果你在那里放了一点脂肪的话。

It just becomes a different food entirely.

它只是完全变成了一种不同的食物。

Eating a bowl of white rice is pretty tasty.

吃一碗白米饭还是蛮好吃的。

Eating a bowl of white rice with a pat of butter and a little bit of salt on there is a completely different experience.

吃一碗白米饭，上面撒上一点黄油和一点盐，是一种完全不同的体验。

A piece of sourdough bread is one thing.

一块酵​​母面包是一回事。

A piece of sourdough bread soaked in a little bit of olive oil with some salt.

一块酵​​母面包，浸泡在少许橄榄油和一些盐中。

I'm eating half the loaf.

我正在吃一半的面包。

Pretty good.

不错。

And I have pretty good self-control.

而且我的自控力也很好。

So this is where I think the debates have become almost silly.

所以我认为这就是争论变得几乎愚蠢的地方。

And I appreciate that you're being very direct with us here.

我很感激你在这里对我们非常直接。

So take us back.

所以带我们回去吧。

So you said, there are ingredients for health and there impediments to health.

所以你说，有健康的成分，也有健康的障碍。

So the ingredients for health are again, not a long list, because we're human beings.

因此，健康的要素并不是一长串，因为我们是人类。

We need the right food, we need the right amount of nutrients, and it's different for different people.

我们需要正确的食物，需要适量的营养，这对于不同的人来说是不同的。

Or you might not know this, but Bruce Ames did an incredible paper, who recently died, one of the giants of science, saying that one third of our entire DNA codes for enzymes.

或者你可能不知道这一点，但最近去世的科学巨人之一布鲁斯·艾姆斯 (Bruce Ames) 发表了一篇令人难以置信的论文，他说我们整个 DNA 的三分之一编码酶。

All enzymes require cofactors.

所有酶都需要辅因子。

Most cofactors are vitamins and minerals, and there's a huge genetic variability in how much different people need.

大多数辅助因子是维生素和矿物质，不同的人需要多少存在巨大的遗传变异。

Some people need 1,000 units of vitamin D, some people need 5,000, some people need 400 micrograms of folate, some people need 4,000 micrograms of folate.

有些人需要 1,000 单位的维生素 D，有些人需要 5,000 单位，有些人需要 400 微克叶酸，有些人需要 4,000 微克叶酸。

And so he explained that very carefully.

所以他非常仔细地解释了这一点。

The mind is incredible.

头脑是不可思议的。

I have a colleague at Stanford who works in the sleep division, sleep medicine, and he said, and I shouldn't tell people this because everyone's supposed to get enough sleep, right?

我在斯坦福大学的一位同事在睡眠医学部门工作，他说，我不应该告诉人们这一点，因为每个人都应该得到足够的睡眠，对吗？

But he said, if you positively-- they've done studies-- he has a study that shows that if you positively anticipate next day events, your sleep need is actually reduced pretty substantially.

但他说，如果你积极地——他们已经做了研究——他的一项研究表明，如果你积极地预期第二天的事件，你的睡眠需求实际上会大大减少。

That's good.

那挺好的。

And the quality of sleep that you get is remarkable.

您获得的睡眠质量非常出色。

Well, that's why I slept so good last night.

嗯，这就是我昨晚睡得这么好的原因。

I was looking forward to this.

我很期待这个。

Exactly.

确切地。

Well, these small things.

嗯，这些小事。

Because we all know the experience of, like, I only slept five hours, but I got this thing today, I'm really looking forward to.

因为我们都知道这样的经历，比如，我只睡了五个小时，但我今天得到了这个东西，我真的很期待。

You feel great.

你感觉棒极了。

And so I don't think people should only sleep five hours.

所以我认为人们不应该只睡五个小时。

Most people need more than that.

大多数人需要的还不止这些。

So the idea is basically with functional medicine, you take out the bad stuff and you put in the good stuff.

所以这个想法基本上是功能医学，你去掉坏的东西，然后放入好的东西。

And each person has a different set of bad stuff and a different set of good stuff, and you have to be detective.

每个人都有不同的坏事和不同的好事，你必须成为侦探。

And it's the opposite of traditional medicine, which is just use a single drug to treat a single mechanism with a single disease and a single outcome.

这与传统医学相反，传统医学只是使用单一药物来治疗单一疾病和单一结果的单一机制。

Like you have high blood pressure, take a high blood pressure drug to lower your blood pressure.

就像您患有高血压一样，服用高血压药物来降低血压。

We need multimodal treatments for multi-causal diseases.

我们需要针对多病因疾病的多模式治疗。

And so what in English that means is we need to do a lot of different things.

所以在英语中这意味着我们需要做很多不同的事情。

Like if you want to garden, you don't just say, I'm going to put the plant in the air and not water it and not give it soil.

就像如果你想园艺一样，你不能只是说，我要把植物放在空气中，不浇水，不给它土壤。

Or you say, I'm just going to plant it in the soil, but no light and no water.

或者你说，我只是要把它种在土里，但没有光，没有水。

I mean, and this is the way science is.

我的意思是，科学就是这样。

Before we move to health metric monitoring, I do want to ask about ingredients for health.

在我们进行健康指标监测之前，我确实想问一下健康成分。

You talk about them.

你谈论他们。

They're your protocols.

它们是您的协议。

You don't use that framing, but that's the framing, is take out the bad stuff, put in the good stuff, the body knows what to do.

你不用那个框架，但这就是框架，去掉坏的东西，放入好的东西，身体知道该怎么做。

It's got an innate healing system, just give it a chance.

它有天生的治疗系统，只要给它一个机会。

I think what's so terrible about traditional medicine-- it has many wonderful features-- is that at least the way it's communicated in this country is that it assumes that people are lazy and uninterested in their own health.

我认为传统医学的可怕之处在于——它有许多奇妙的特点——至少它在这个国家的传播方式是它假设人们是懒惰的，对自己的健康不感兴趣。

And I fundamentally disagree, hence this podcast, your podcast, et cetera.

我从根本上不同意，因此有这个播客，你的播客等等。

I agree too.

我也同意。

I believe people want and are willing to take care of themselves if they know how.

我相信，如果人们知道如何照顾自己，他们就想要并且愿意照顾自己。

So let's just assume the pillars of health, like sleep, sunlight, exercise, nutrition, social connections, stress modulation, microbiome, et cetera.

因此，让我们假设健康的支柱，如睡眠、阳光、运动、营养、社会关系、压力调节、微生物组等。

Assuming that people are making some effort to do those things correctly or a lot of effort, what are some of the things that you believe cannot be accessed through diet and behaviors that warrant supplementation?

假设人们正在努力或付出很多努力来正确地做这些事情，那么您认为哪些东西不能通过饮食和行为来获得，而需要补充？

Great question.

很好的问题。

I thought you were going somewhere else.

我以为你要去别的地方。

I thought you were going, what are the things that if you did everything perfectly and you're still sick, what do you do?

我以为你要走了，如果你把一切都做得很完美，但你仍然生病，你会做什么？

Oh, well, we'll get to that.

哦，好吧，我们会解决这个问题的。

We'll get to that.

我们会解决这个问题的。

There's a list of the things that--

有一份清单，上面写着——

We will get to that.

我们会做到这一点。

80% of it you can take care of, and there's some things you need help, we can talk about that.

80%的事情你可以处理，还有一些事情你需要帮助，我们可以谈谈。

I think because of how dramatically our diets changed after the Industrial Revolution and because of urbanization and our disconnection from nature, we have a lower nutrient intake than we did as hunter-gatherers.

我认为，由于工业革命后我们的饮食发生了巨大的变化，并且由于城市化和我们与自然的脱节，我们的营养摄入量比狩猎采集者要低。

I just came back from Africa, I went to the Hadza tribe, which is one of the last hunter-gatherer tribes, and I got to spend a few days with them, and the nutrient density of the diet was so much higher.

我刚从非洲回来，去了哈扎部落，这是最后的狩猎采集部落之一，我和他们呆了几天，饮食的营养密度要高得多。

Omega 3s, vitamin D, you're outside running around in a loincloth.

欧米伽 3、维生素 D，你在外面裹着腰带到处跑。

Or if you're not, you're living in some coastal area, we're eating extremely fatty fish, which is one of the great sources of vitamin D in the food.

或者，如果您不是，那么您生活在一些沿海地区，我们正在吃脂肪含量极高的鱼，而鱼是食物中维生素 D 的重要来源之一。

You needed magnesium citrate?

您需要柠檬酸镁吗？

Yeah.

是的。

And he was like, oh, that's really interesting.

他说，哦，这真的很有趣。

I didn't know that.

我不知道。

He wrote it down.

他把它写下来。

I have a lot of friends who are physicians.

我有很多朋友都是医生。

And I'll tell you, they come to me for health advice.

我会告诉你，他们来找我寻求健康建议。

So that tells you something.

这告诉了你一些事情。

I'm not an M.D.

我不是医学博士

Yeah, folks, magnesium citrate, great laxative-- malate for muscles, glycinate and threonate for brain and sleep.

是的，朋友们，柠檬酸镁是一种很好的泻药——苹果酸对肌肉有益，甘氨酸和苏糖酸对大脑和睡眠有益。

Yeah, and glycinate for also, if you tend to be constipated, it's one that you can tolerate and not be constipated.

是的，还有甘氨酸，如果你有便秘的倾向，它是一种你可以忍受并且不会便秘的药物。

It also helps with detoxification and sleep and other things.

它还有助于排毒和睡眠等。

and so those are the big ones.

这些都是大问题。

And I think, I've been diagnostically testing people for decades with nutritional testing.

我认为，几十年来我一直在通过营养测试对人们进行诊断测试。

With Function we do deep nutritional testing, including omega 3 testing and homocysteine, looking at methylation, which is a really important thing you've talked about in the podcast.

通过功能，我们进行深度营养测试，包括 omega 3 测试和同型半胱氨酸，以及甲基化，这是您在播客中谈到的非常重要的事情。

B12, folate, B6, we do vitamin D testing, and we see over 67% are deficient.

B12、叶酸、B6，我们做了维生素 D 测试，发现超过 67% 的人都缺乏。

Most people won't.

大多数人不会。

It's not easy, no.

这并不容易，不。

So it sounds like magnesium-- getting a gram of EPA omega-3, 3,000 IU minimum of D3 per day, some iron, some zinc, selenium-- sounds like the basics.

因此，听起来像镁——每天摄入一克 EPA omega-3、至少 3,000 国际单位的 D3、一些铁、一些锌、硒——听起来像是基础知识。

Yeah, yeah.

是啊是啊。

And would that be true for teens?

对于青少年来说也是如此吗？

Well, for example, you're an older guy.

嗯，举个例子，你是个老家伙了。

You don't want to take a lot of iron because you're not getting rid of it, and you can get iron toxicity.

你不想摄入大量铁，因为你没有摆脱它，而且你可能会产生铁中毒。

So if you're a menstruating woman, you need more iron.

因此，如果您是经期女性，则需要更多的铁。

But what I think is the key is figuring out what's right for you.

但我认为关键是弄清楚什么适合你。

Test don't guess.

测试不要猜测。

Most people don't know.

大多数人不知道。

And some people may need 10,000 units of vitamin D to get the same blood level as somebody else with 1,000.

有些人可能需要 10,000 单位的维生素 D 才能达到与其他人 1,000 单位相同的血液水平。

And that's because there's different vitamin D receptors, and they're genetically determined.

这是因为维生素 D 受体不同，而且它们是由基因决定的。

And you can't know by just guessing.

而且仅仅靠猜测是无法知道的。

Right.

正确的。

I totally agree.

我完全同意。

But I also totally know that a lot of people won't blood test.

但我也完全知道很多人不会验血。

So the argument against supplements has always been, you just are creating expensive urine, which is a silly one because that's based on water-soluble vitamins only, right?

因此，反对补充剂的论点一直是，你只是在产生昂贵的尿液，这是一个愚蠢的观点，因为它仅基于水溶性维生素，对吧？

And, by the way, it's a stupid argument.

顺便说一句，这是一个愚蠢的论点。

Because you're like, why drink water?

因为你想，为什么要喝水？

I just pee the rest out.

我只是把剩下的尿出来。

ANDREW HUBERMAN: It's silly.

安德鲁·休伯曼：这很愚蠢。

It's a silly one.

这是一件愚蠢的事。

But the list that we just talked about-- D3, omega, magnesium, maybe some iron if you're not an older guy, zinc, selenium-- it seems to me those would be good things for most everybody to add to their already healthy diet that has enough prebiotic, postbiotic fiber, that sort of thing.

但我们刚才谈到的清单——D3、欧米茄、镁，如果你不是老年人的话，也许还有一些铁、锌、硒——在我看来，这些对于大多数人来说都是好事，可以添加到他们本已健康的饮食中，其中含有足够的益生元、后生元纤维等。

And we're seeing iodine-- interesting.

我们看到了碘——很有趣。

Because people are eating the iodized salt or having sea salt and Himalayan salt.

因为人们正在吃加碘盐或海盐和喜马拉雅盐。

We got too fancy with our salt.

我们对盐太着迷了。

And so--

所以——

We need table salt.

我们需要食盐。

--we're not eating iodized salt.

——我们不吃加碘盐。

Now, iodine is not normally found in salt, but it was added to salt as a fortification to prevent goiters or thyroid problems.

现在，盐中通常不含有碘，但它被添加到盐中作为预防甲状腺肿或甲状腺问题的强化剂。

But a lot of people have thyroid issues.

但很多人都有甲状腺问题。

One in five women and 1 in 10 men have low thyroid function.

五分之一的女性和十分之一的男性甲状腺功能低下。

And 50% are not diagnosed.

50% 的人没有被诊断出来。

And sometimes just a little iodine supplementation can help.

有时只需补充一点碘就能有所帮助。

Or you can eat seaweed fish.

或者你可以吃海带鱼。

But a lot of people don't eat seaweed or fish.

但很多人不吃海藻或鱼。

We hear a lot nowadays about methylated B12.

如今我们经常听到有关甲基化 B12 的信息。

I decided to just start taking methylated B12.

我决定开始服用甲基化维生素 B12。

Is there a danger to taking methylated B12 if you, quote unquote, "don't need it," if you're not a poor methylator?

如果您“不需要”，如果您不是一个糟糕的甲基化者，那么服用甲基化维生素 B12 是否有危险？

It depends on what you're taking-- mostly not.

这取决于你服用的是什么——大多数情况下不是。

But you can over-methylate or under-methylate.

但甲基化可能会过度或不足。

And so you don't want to be doing too much one or the other.

因此，您不想在其中一项上做太多事情。

And there's genetics that are involved in actually assessing how your methylation pathways work-- so the genetics around B12, around B6, around folate.

遗传学会实际评估您的甲基化途径如何发挥作用，例如维生素 B12、维生素 B6 和叶酸周围的遗传学。

And you have multiple genes that regulate all these different pathways.

你有多个基因来调节所有这些不同的途径。

Yeah.

是的。

I want to make sure that we talk about the impediments-- things like mold, air, water cleanliness, things of that sort.

我想确保我们谈论障碍——比如霉菌、空气、水的清洁度等等。

But I want to spend just a little bit longer on this supplement thing, maybe because it's so near and dear to my heart, and because it has sparked a lot of confusion for me-- not supplements per se but the reaction to them.

但我想在这个补充剂上多花一点时间，也许是因为它离我的心如此之近，也因为它给我带来了很多困惑——不是补充剂本身，而是对它们的反应。

By traditional medicine or--

通过传统医学或——

Yeah.

是的。

Why is it that supplementation has received so much pushback from the medical community?

为什么补充剂受到医学界如此强烈的反对？

And yet, I would argue that since 2020, you're going to find vitamin D3 and omegas, essential fatty acids, and magnesium in many, many more people's kitchens-- meaning they're taking it-- than prior to that.

然而，我认为自 2020 年以来，与之前相比，更多人的厨房中会发现维生素 D3 和欧米伽、必需脂肪酸和镁——这意味着他们正在服用它们。

Yeah.

是的。

Well, it was interesting-- when I got to Cleveland Clinic in 2014, I said, let's do a survey of 3,000 physicians.

嗯，这很有趣——2014 年我到达克利夫兰诊所时，我说，让我们对 3,000 名医生进行一项调查。

Let's do a survey of the physicians about their beliefs, practices, desires, goals, needs around supplements.

让我们对医生进行一项调查，了解他们对补充剂的信念、实践、愿望、目标和需求。

And I was shocked.

我很震惊。

We got a lot of answers.

我们得到了很多答案。

And I'm not remembering the exact percentages, but I'll give you the ballpark.

我不记得确切的百分比，但我可以告诉你大概的情况。

It does say a lot.

它确实说了很多。

And I think we're entering an era where I think there's more and more science.

我认为我们正在进入一个科学越来越多的时代。

We're understanding more about the complexity of individuality and biochemical individuality.

我们对个性和生化个性的复杂性有了更多的了解。

And this was this personalized precision medicine.

这就是个性化精准医疗。

This is where we're all headed.

这就是我们大家要去的地方。

And one of the fathers of the thinking in functional medicine was Roger Williams, who discovered pantothenic acid, or vitamin B5.

功能医学思想之父之一是罗杰·威廉姆斯 (Roger Williams)，他发现了泛酸或维生素 B5。

He wrote a book called biochemical individuality.

他写了一本书叫《生化个性》。

And actually, his book was the one that got me interested in college, because I lived with a nutrition PhD student who was talking about, basically, the gut flora of cows, which he was studying to understand fiber and the microbiome.

事实上，他的书让我对大学产生了兴趣，因为我和一位营养学博士生住在一起，他基本上在谈论牛的肠道菌群，他正在研究牛的肠道菌群，以了解纤维和微生物组。

There's a whole generation of physicians and scientists that I do think in the current shift in funding for science-- different conversation entirely-- are going to retire.

我确实认为，在当前科学资助的转变中，整整一代的医生和科学家——完全不同的谈话——将会退休。

And I'm not sure it's a bad thing.

我不确定这是一件坏事。

I don't mind saying this.

我不介意说这个。

I don't mind saying it.

我不介意说出来。

I think they've done a really wonderful job, and now it's time to pass the baton.

我认为他们做得非常出色，现在是时候传递接力棒了。

Nuts and seeds and olive oil and--

坚果、种子、橄榄油以及——

--and you're there?

——你在吗？

Yeah.

是的。

And if you look at the cost of buying food out versus that, you're probably coming out ahead.

如果你比较一下外出购买食物的成本，你可能会领先。

Because I'm thinking about the college student.

因为我在想那个大学生。

I'm thinking about me in college or as a postdoc or a graduate student.

我正在考虑我在大学、博士后或研究生的情况。

So I think for people that have more disposable income, it makes sense.

所以我认为对于拥有更多可支配收入的人来说，这是有道理的。

You eat as well as you can, organic.

你吃得尽可能好，有机的。

You supplement.

你补充一下。

You blood test.

你抽血化验一下。

And I want to talk about those things.

我想谈谈这些事情。

Yeah, maybe in the mountains in Colorado.

是的，也许在科罗拉多州的山区。

OK, so the air is dirty.

好吧，所以空气很脏。

I think, Compared to what?

我想，与什么相比？

is the answer.

就是答案。

If you go to India or China or some of these developing nations or-- not even developing anymore-- the air is so bad.

如果你去印度或中国或其中一些发展中国家，或者甚至不再是发展中国家，空气就会非常糟糕。

They have all kinds of petrochemical products they burn.

他们拥有燃烧的各种石化产品。

They have coal factories.

他们有煤炭工厂。

It's really bad.

真的很糟糕。

So in America, I think the air quality in general is much, much higher.

所以在美国，我认为总体空气质量要高得多。

Fiberglass.

玻璃纤维。

--and plastics.

——还有塑料。

You've got PFAS chemicals.

你有 PFAS 化学品。

And we actually found that those chemicals go up on their function testing in people who live in LA who've actually been in the fires.

事实上，我们发现这些化学物质在居住在洛杉矶、经历过火灾的人们身上进行了功能测试。

Yeah.

是的。

I need to get tested again because I haven't been tested since the fires.

我需要再次接受测试，因为火灾发生后我还没有接受过测试。

I feel fine.

我感觉很好。

But I got out of town.

但我出城了。

I drove up to San Luis Obispo, parked myself at a big, pink hotel called the Madonna Inn and looked at the horses and worked on my book,

我开车到圣路易斯奥比斯波，把车停在一家叫麦当娜旅馆的粉红色大酒店里，一边看马一边写我的书，

That's good.

那很好。

The air felt clean.

空气感觉很干净。

But is the air clean when there isn't a fire?

但没有火灾时空气干净吗？

Not necessarily.

未必。

For example, just to help people understand-- air moves.

比如说，只是为了帮助人们理解——空气的移动。

It's not like there's just LA air or Colorado air.

并不是只有洛杉矶的空气或科罗拉多的空气。

In Seattle, they had a big mercury problem in the air because of China.

在西雅图，由于中国的原因，他们的空气中存在严重的汞问题。

Because Northeast China-- like Beijing and Harbin-- in the winters, they just burn huge amounts of coal.

因为中国东北地区——比如北京和哈尔滨——在冬天会燃烧大量的煤炭。

And it goes up in the air.

它升到空中。

And it goes across in the Gulf Streams and the air streams or whatever they call them.

它穿过墨西哥湾流和气流或无论他们如何称呼它们。

And it gets all the way to Seattle, and it rains heavy-metal rain.

一直到西雅图，还下着重金属雨。

So is this is a separate unit air filter--

这是一个独立的空气过滤器吗——

Yeah.

是的。

--or not--

——或者不——

You can get one for your house, which most houses have.

你可以为你的房子买一个，大多数房子都有。

And make sure you change the filters.

并确保更换过滤器。

Or you can get a special HEPA air filter If you live in a more urban area or more environmentally toxic area.

或者，如果您居住在城市地区或环境污染更严重的地区，您可以购买特殊的 HEPA 空气过滤器。

I love to exercise outside.

我喜欢在外面锻炼。

Is running and breathing harder outside?

在外面跑步和呼吸会更困难吗？

In LA?

在洛杉矶？

Well--

嗯——

Or in general?

还是一般情况下？

Well, I like to do that wherever I go.

嗯，无论我走到哪里，我都喜欢这样做。

But when I'm in New York City, I love to run along the freeway.

但当我在纽约时，我喜欢沿着高速公路跑步。

I'm probably breathing in a lot of junk.

我可能吸入了很多垃圾。

You are.

你是。

Yeah.

是的。

And the question is, what's going to be a problem for you?

问题是，什么对你来说是个问题？

Like, all of us are toxic soups, right?

就像，我们所有人都是有毒的汤，对吧？

So it's just the amount over time that builds up.

所以这只是随着时间的推移而积累的数量。

And then, eventually, sometimes things can happen.

然后，最终，有时事情会发生。

It causes cardiovascular disease.

它会导致心血管疾病。

It causes dementia.

它会导致痴呆症。

It causes cancer.

它会导致癌症。

It causes diabetes.

它会导致糖尿病。

So toxins are direct causes of these things, among other things-- diet and other things.

所以毒素是这些事情的直接原因，其中包括饮食和其他事情。

Iceland is looking pretty nice.

冰岛看起来很不错。

Iceland's looking good.

冰岛看起来不错。

Yeah.

是的。

Like, Greenland seemed to be the 51st state, maybe.

就像，格陵兰岛似乎是第 51 个州，也许吧。

Is that going to happen?

这会发生吗？

I don't know.

我不知道。

I'm just joking.

我只是开玩笑。

I'm making fun of it.

我正在开玩笑。

But there are places.

但也有一些地方。

But I think for most of us, we have to just manage it.

但我认为对于我们大多数人来说，我们必须管理它。

And like, we filter our water.

就像我们过滤水一样。

I wouldn't drink tap water.

我不会喝自来水。

There's an average of 37 or 38 wastewater contaminants, including drugs, including pesticides, including glyphosate in hormones.

废水中平均有37、38种污染物，包括药物，包括农药，包括激素中的草甘膦。

And that's chicken liver.

那就是鸡肝。

Chicken liver, yeah.

鸡肝可以啊

Oh.

哦。

Chopped liver-- what are you going to say?

切碎的肝脏——你想说什么？

But--

但是——

Chicken liver, not for me.

鸡肝，不适合我。

--there's been studies that it may cost the same or maybe $0.50 extra a day to eat well.

——有研究表明，每天要花同样的钱或者多花 0.5 美元才能吃得好。

And there's a guide from the Environmental Working Group called good food on a tight budget, which is how to eat well for you and for your wallet and the planet.

环境工作组有一份指南，名为“预算紧张的好食物”，它介绍了如何为您、您的钱包和地球吃得好。

And we grew up-- we have borscht.

我们长大了——我们有罗宋汤。

It was short ribs, which is the cheapest cut of meat, onions, cabbage, carrots, a can of tomatoes.

那是小排骨，这是最便宜的一块肉，洋葱，卷心菜，胡萝卜，一罐西红柿。

It's pretty darn cheap.

这真是太便宜了。

And you could a family of, like, six for a few bucks.

你可以花几块钱养活一个六口之家。

Do you think that one of the reasons food and nutrition is so complicated in this country is that, with the exception of the hamburger, the hot dog, apple pie, and ice cream, that there isn't really an American cuisine?

您是否认为这个国家的食物和营养如此复杂的原因之一是，除了汉堡包、热狗、苹果派和冰淇淋之外，没有真正的美国美食？

What's wrong with all that?

这一切有什么问题吗？

Years ago--

几年前——

Hot dogs, hamburgers, apple pies.

热狗、汉堡包、苹果派。

--yeah.

- 是的。

Right.

正确的。

Well, years ago, I had a girlfriend who was from the South of France.

嗯，几年前，我有一个来自法国南部的女朋友。

She grew up very modestly, did not have wealth at all.

她从小就非常谦虚，没有任何财富。

But her family ate very well.

但她一家人吃得很好。

They put a lot of effort into food.

他们在食物上投入了很多精力。

They had gardens.

他们有花园。

They put a lot of time into food.

他们在食物上投入了大量的时间。

They had animals.

他们有动物。

And she knew about-- she was in her early 20s.

她知道——她才 20 岁出头。

I was in my mid 20s then.

那时我20多岁。

She knew probably 200 recipes--

她大概知道 200 种食谱——

Wow--

哇——

--for soups and souffles.

——用于汤和蛋奶酥。

And it was amazing.

这太棒了。

I ate very well.

我吃得很好。

So I feel like one of the things that's really missing in this country is a sense of pride in the healthy food that we can produce here.

所以我觉得这个国家真正缺少的事情之一就是对我们在这里生产的健康食品的自豪感。

And there's never really been a history of it.

而且从来没有真正的历史。

We have kind of a picture of the farmer and the rancher.

我们有一张农民和牧场主的照片。

And then on the West Coast, you have more of the natural food movement, the healthy food movement, Alice Waters and Michael Pollan and that kind of thing.

然后在西海岸，有更多的天然食品运动、健康食品运动、爱丽丝·沃特斯和迈克尔·波伦等等。

It's true.

这是真的。

And what would happen, Andrew, was after the World War II-- because my mother and grandparents were pre that generation.

安德鲁，二战之后会发生什么——因为我的母亲和祖父母是那一代人之前的人。

So they had an incredible food culture of real food.

所以他们拥有令人难以置信的真正食物的饮食文化。

My grandmother tells me stories-- or told me stories.

我的祖母给我讲故事——或者说给我讲故事。

She died-- of plucking chickens at the local butcher so she could get a nickel to go to the movies.

她死于在当地屠宰场拔鸡毛，这样她就可以得到五分钱去看电影。

But I feel like that came by way of people's ethnic past because they were first- and second-generation immigrants.

但我觉得这是由于人们的种族历史造成的，因为他们是第一代和第二代移民。

Maybe.

或许。

Fair enough, fair enough.

够公平，够公平。

But still, what happened was the industrialization of the American food system.

但仍然发生的是美国食品体系的工业化。

So after World War II, there was all these bombmaking factories and all these biochemical, biological warfare factories.

第二次世界大战后，出现了所有这些炸弹制造工厂和所有这些生化、生物战工厂。

So they got turned into bomb factories, got turned into fertilizer, which was nitrogen.

所以它们变成了炸弹工厂，变成了肥料，也就是氮。

And the biological weapons were pesticides and herbicides.

生物武器是杀虫剂和除草剂。

So basically, pesticides are biological weapons.

所以基本上，农药是生物武器。

They're neurotoxins.

它们是神经毒素。

That's how they kill the insects.

这就是他们杀死昆虫的方法。

Or sterilize them.

或者对它们进行消毒。

Yeah.

是的。

And then we thought, everything industrial is good.

然后我们想，一切工业化的东西都是好的。

Remember, in the '60s-- you probably remember-- they had, like, Better Living through Chemistry through DuPont and didn't realize it was killing everybody, right?

请记住，在 60 年代——您可能还记得——他们通过杜邦公司推出了“通过化学改善生活”，但没有意识到它正在杀死所有人，对吧？

And the World's Fair-- I grew up in Queens, and the World's Fair was in Queens in 1965.

还有世界博览会——我在皇后区长大，1965 年世界博览会在皇后区举行。

And I went.

我去了。

And I didn't, obviously, remember that skit, but I've seen things about it.

显然，我不记得那个短剧，但我见过有关它的事情。

Ugh.

啊。

So they insinuated that.

所以他们暗示了这一点。

And there were TV dinners.

还有电视晚餐。

And I grew up in that area.

我是在那个地区长大的。

And then there was the food of astronauts, like Tang, and Fleischmann's margarine-- better than butter.

还有像唐这样的宇航员的食物，以及弗莱施曼的人造黄油——比黄油更好。

And so it was--

事情就是这样——

And there was cup of noodles.

还有一杯面条。

Yeah, yeah.

是啊是啊。

And so we basically got this whole culture of convenience and then You Deserve a Break Today from McDonald's.

所以我们基本上得到了整个便利文化，然后你今天应该从麦当劳休息一下。

And we basically disenfranchise people from their kitchens.

我们基本上剥夺了人们使用厨房的权利。

We have whole generations of Americans who don't know how to cook, who don't know anything about shopping or where vegetables come from.

我们有整整一代美国人不知道如何做饭，不知道购物或蔬菜来自哪里。

Jamie Oliver did a whole television show series in West Virginia, where kids didn't know what a tomato was.

杰米·奥利弗在西弗吉尼亚州做了一整套电视连续剧，那里的孩子们不知道西红柿是什么。

And they saw a tomato or a carrot.

他们看到了西红柿或胡萝卜。

Or they couldn't name a vegetable because they had never seen one.

或者他们无法说出一种蔬菜的名称，因为他们从未见过这种蔬菜。

And now most of America is like that.

现在美国大部分地区都是这样。

And so they have succeeded in disenfranchising ourselves from our kitchen.

因此，他们成功地剥夺了我们对厨房的权利。

And it's a lot less than a latte.

而且比拿铁要少很多。

Yeah.

是的。

And we do $15,000 for the test for $499 a year.

我们每年的测试费用为 15,000 美元，费用为 499 美元。

And you get a panel of tests that tells you what's really happening.

然后你会得到一组测试，告诉你到底发生了什么。

And people can own their data and own their biology and be proactive and preventive and actually understand what's happening way before they get into real trouble.

人们可以拥有自己的数据，拥有自己的生物学，并采取主动和预防措施，在遇到真正的麻烦之前真正了解正在发生的事情。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。

AG1 is a vitamin-mineral probiotic drink that also contains adaptogens.

AG1 是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮料，还含有适应原。

I started taking AG1 way back in 2012, long before I even knew what a podcast was.

早在 2012 年，我就开始学习 AG1，当时我什至还不知道什么是播客。

I started taking it-- and I still take it every single day-- because it ensures that I meet my quota for daily vitamins and minerals, and it helps make sure that I get enough prebiotics and probiotics to support my gut health.

我开始服用它——而且现在仍然每天服用——因为它可以确保我达到每日维生素和矿物质的配额，并且有助于确保我获得足够的益生元和益生菌来支持我的肠道健康。

No, we are already.

不，我们已经是了。

Well, we're going to continue to be, right?

好吧，我们会继续这样，对吧？

But there's this thing that happens when you start taking care of your health.

但当您开始照顾自己的健康时，就会发生这种情况。

And I know this because in college, I decided to stop drinking as much as everyone else around me drank.

我知道这一点是因为在大学里，我决定像我周围的其他人一样戒酒。

It was insane.

这太疯狂了。

It was unbelievable, the amount of binge drinking and just the frequency-- like, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday.

令人难以置信的是，酗酒的数量和频率——比如周三、周四、周五。

I was like, this is crazy.

我当时想，这太疯狂了。

And I got really into working out and sleep and studying.

我真的很喜欢锻炼、睡觉和学习。

And I had to be a bit lonely in order to preserve that life.

为了维持这种生活，我必须有点孤独。

But I got teased a lot for being healthy.

但我因为健康而经常被嘲笑。

Know people who know people who know people.

认识人，认识人，认识人。

Yeah.

是的。

I know people who know people.

我认识认识人的人。

And I am in discussions with them.

我正在与他们讨论。

They've asked questions.

他们提出了问题。

I've provided answers where I could provide answers.

我已经在我能提供答案的地方提供了答案。

But the pushback on MAHA is what I'd like to understand.

但我想理解的是对 MAHA 的抵制。

Because you and I sit from a unique vantage point-- and you in particular, where you have a lot of colleagues and understanding of the traditional medical community.

因为你和我处于一个独特的有利位置——尤其是你，你有很多同事并且对传统医学界有了解。

God forbid if everybody--

上帝保佑，如果每个人——

--they don't want to take Ozempic.

——他们不想服用 Ozempic。

--did push-ups.

——做了俯卧撑。

And so maybe-- because I see you, Mark, as somebody who can potentially bridge this divide.

所以也许——因为我认为你，马克，是一个有可能弥合这一分歧的人。

Knowing people on both sides, I really see you as somebody who can do that.

我了解双方的人，我真的认为你是能做到这一点的人。

I'm not saying that just because you're sitting here.

我并不是因为你坐在这里才这么说的。

In large part, you're sitting here because of that.

在很大程度上，你坐在这里就是因为这个。

So how do you change millions of people's mindset about health when now MAHA has become a red label thing?

那么，当 MAHA 现在已成为红色标签时，如何改变数百万人对健康的看法呢？

How do you do it?

你怎么做？

It's crazy.

太疯狂了。

Either Republicans are going to get healthy, and Democrats aren't.

要么共和党人会变得健康，而民主党人则不会。

It's crazy to me.

这对我来说太疯狂了。

Or there's an opportunity here.

或者说这里有一个机会。

And I do think that they're-- I know they're drawing you in for this, and I'm so glad they are.

我确实认为他们——我知道他们正在吸引你这么做，我很高兴他们这么做。

Because I do think that you're somebody who really believes in inclusivity in the real sense of the word.

因为我确实认为您是一个真正相信真正意义上的包容性的人。

So what do you think it's going to take to make America healthy?

那么你认为如何才能让美国变得健康呢？

And this is not MAHA propaganda.

这不是 MAHA 的宣传。

This is just, can MAHA do it?

只是，MAHA能做到吗？

What do they need to do better?

他们需要在哪些方面做得更好？

What can you do?

你能做什么？

What can we all do?

我们大家能做什么？

Great question.

很好的问题。

And you know what's funny to me?

你知道我觉得什么好笑吗？

I was thinking as you were talking about how when Michelle Obama started her Let's Move campaign, it was a blue issue.

当你谈论米歇尔·奥巴马开始她的“让我们行动”运动时，我在想，这是一个蓝色问题。

A lot of the people who were pushing this agenda was Chellie Pingree, who's a Democrat from Maine, or Jim McGovern, who's from Massachusetts, or Cory Booker-- introduced all these bills about food safety in the last Congress.

许多推动这一议程的人是来自缅因州的民主党人切莉·平格里(Chellie Pingree)、来自马萨诸塞州的吉姆·麦戈文(Jim McGovern)或科里·布克(Cory Booker)——他们在上届国会提出了所有这些有关食品安全的法案。

And all of a sudden, it's like it flipped and became a Republican issue, which is staggering to me.

突然之间，事情就发生了转变，变成了共和党的问题，这让我感到震惊。

And we now see bills in a few dozen states-- or more, actually.

我们现在在几十个州——实际上甚至更多——看到了法案。

Now every day, I hear about new bills that are helping push forward an agenda to fix our food system.

现在，我每天都会听到新的法案，这些法案正在帮助推动修复我们粮食系统的议程。

And before you dive in, I just want to see this answer with one thing.

在你深入探讨之前，我只想通过一件事来看看这个答案。

Forgive me, audience.

请原谅我，观众。

They don't like it when I interrupt.

他们不喜欢我打断他们。

But the goal of the left, if I may, seems to be to make anyone associated with health and MAHA on the right a jock, not a scientist.

但左派的目标，如果可以的话，似乎是让任何与健康和右翼 MAHA 有关的人成为运动员，而不是科学家。

That's what I'm seeing.

这就是我所看到的。

They're trying to take away their science credential and make them a jock.

他们试图剥夺他们的科学证书，让他们成为一名运动员。

Yeah.

是的。

These aren't jocks.

这些不是运动员。

No.

不。

These are people that may or may not lift weights.

这些人可能会也可能不会举重。

But there seems to be this effort to say, we're going to strip MAHA of its power by making it a bro-science, biohacking, jock thing.

但似乎有人在努力说，我们将通过使其成为兄弟科学、生物黑客、运动员的东西来剥夺 MAHA 的力量。

Real science is about reductionist stuff.

真正的科学是关于还原论的东西。

And I just say, listen, it's all valuable.

我只是说，听着，这一切都很有价值。

And so I'm fundamentally frustrated, and it hasn't even begun.

所以我从根本上感到沮丧，而且它甚至还没有开始。

No, it is.

不，是的。

Yeah.

是的。

So educate us.

所以教育我们。

Listen.

听。

My friend, Rick Warren, said, I'm not left wing or right wing.

我的朋友里克·沃伦（Rick Warren）说，我既不是左翼，也不是右翼。

I'm for the whole bird.

我是为了整只鸟。

Otherwise, you'll fly around in circles.

否则，你就会原地打转。

I like that.

我喜欢这样。

Who said that?

谁说的？

Rick Warren.

里克·沃伦.

Who's Rick Warren?

里克·沃伦是谁？

should I know?

我应该知道吗？

Rick Warren is the head of Saddleback Church, which is an evangelical church in Southern California.

里克·沃伦 (Rick Warren) 是南加州福音派教会马鞍峰教会 (Saddleback Church) 的负责人。

We did a whole program with this church, where we got 15,000 people to lose a quarter million pounds in a year by doing health together in groups.

我们和这个教会一起做了一个完整的计划，通过小组一起进行健康运动，我们让 15,000 人在一年内减掉了 25 万磅。

And it was--

那是——

I love that.

我喜欢那个。

--amazing, actually.

——实际上，太棒了。

Well, I love that quote.

嗯，我喜欢这句话。

It was a great quote.

这是一个很棒的引言。

And health isn't red or blue or purple.

健康不是红色、蓝色或紫色。

It's a human issue.

这是一个人的问题。

And to make it partisan-- it doesn't make any sense to me.

而且让它带有党派色彩——这对我来说没有任何意义。

And yet, we live in a partisan world.

然而，我们生活在一个党派之争的世界。

And anything the Democrats do, the Republicans are going to hate.

民主党人所做的任何事情都会遭到共和党人的憎恨。

Anything the Republicans do, the Democrats are going to hate.

共和党所做的任何事情，民主党都会讨厌。

It's like, hey, guys, can we just talk to each other and have civil discourse and agree on the things we can agree on and disagree on the things we're going to disagree on?

就像，嘿，伙计们，我们可以互相交谈并进行文明对话，就我们可以同意的事情达成一致，对我们将不同意的事情达成一致吗？

And I know behind the scenes, there's collaboration-- bipartisan-- on these issues.

我知道在幕后，两党在这些问题上进行了合作。

There's bipartisan caucus that--

两党核心小组——

Well, on the psychedelic issue, I was at a meeting where, former Governor Rick Perry of Texas, who describes himself as a knuckle-dragging Republican-- those are Rick's words, by the way.

好吧，关于迷幻剂的问题，我参加了一次会议，德克萨斯州前州长里克·佩里（Rick Perry）将自己描述为一个顽固的共和党人——顺便说一句，这是里克的话。

Rick's a very nice guy.

瑞克是一个非常好的人。

And there were several members of the Dems there.

那里有几名民主党成员。

And he got Rick Doblin, who was a counterculture, conscientious objector during the Vietnam War.

他还找到了里克·多布林（Rick Doblin），他是越南战争期间的反主流文化、依良心拒服兵役者。

And they're all up there, being proponents for psychedelics for the treatment of PTSD and veterans.

他们都是用迷幻药治疗创伤后应激障碍和退伍军人的支持者。

No.

不。

It's not happening on this thing of get exercise.

这并没有发生在锻炼这件事上。

Those have become red labels.

那些已经成为红色标签。

Yeah.

是的。

It's unfortunate because Americans are suffering.

这是不幸的，因为美国人正在受苦。

Americans are really suffering.

美国人真的很痛苦。

93% of us have some metabolic dysfunction.

93% 的人都有一定的代谢功能障碍。

Psychiatric illness is on the rise in both kids and adults.

儿童和成人的精神疾病都在增加。

Autoimmune diseases are skyrocketing.

自身免疫性疾病正在急剧上升。

Obviously, obesity is a huge problem.

显然，肥胖是一个大问题。

Diabetes is a huge problem.

糖尿病是一个大问题。

Heart disease deaths are going down, but the incidence is going up, meaning there's more people getting it.

心脏病死亡人数正在下降，但发病率却在上升，这意味着有更多的人患有心脏病。

But because we have better treatments, they don't die from it-- same thing with cancer.

但因为我们有更好的治疗方法，他们不会因此而死亡——癌症也是如此。

If insurance is private, how does that work?

如果保险是私人的，那么它是如何运作的？

How is it that my money is going to take care of somebody who has, for example, heart disease?

我的钱怎么能用来照顾患有心脏病等疾病的人呢？

For example, if you get on to Medicare Advantage-- that's a government program, but it's administered by Humana or by Cigna or by-- these insurance companies kind of deploy federal resources to deliver health care.

例如，如果您参加 Medicare Advantage——这是一项政府计划，但由 Humana 或 Cigna 或这些保险公司管理——这些保险公司会部署联邦资源来提供医疗保健。

But if you actually look at the end to end with Medicare, Medicaid, Indian Health Service, federal employees, children's health program-- you just add up all the things that the government pays for-- it's almost $2 trillion a year for health care.

但如果你真正从头到尾地看一下医疗保险、医疗补助、印第安人医疗服务、联邦雇员、儿童健康计划——你只要把政府支付的所有费用加起来——每年的医疗保健费用几乎是 2 万亿美元。

High-fructose corn syrup.

高果糖玉米糖浆。

They have it there, but it's limited, more limited.

他们在那里有它，但它是有限的，更有限的。

The toxins-- there's 10,000 additives to food in America.

毒素——美国的食品中有 10,000 种添加剂。

There's 400 that are allowed in Europe.

欧洲允许携带 400 架飞机。

OK, let me ask you a question about toxins, because I've been watching this very closely online And folks who are more of the traditional science background, who like to spend a lot of their time trying to debunk folks like you or people that talk about food additives, say that these are infinitesimally small amounts of these dyes, that the amount required to kill a rat is 3,000 times higher.

好吧，让我问你一个关于毒素的问题，因为我一直在网上非常密切地关注这个问题。那些更具有传统科学背景的人，喜欢花大量时间试图揭穿像你这样的人或谈论食品添加剂的人，他们说这些染料的量微乎其微，杀死一只老鼠所需的量要高出 3,000 倍。

It's dose, frequency, and duration.

它是剂量、频率和持续时间。

But if you're going through it multiple times per month or year and it's compounding with other things-- so it's, like you said, dose, frequency, and duration.

但如果你每个月或每年都要经历多次，而且它与其他事情混合在一起——所以，就像你说的，剂量、频率和持续时间。

And the interactions-- like, when these things are studied, they might be studying one at a time.

还有相互作用——比如，当研究这些东西时，他们可能一次研究一个。

But what if you put thousands of them together, whether it's environmental chemicals or food additives?

但如果你把数千种物质放在一起，无论是环境化学品还是食品添加剂呢？

And I don't think the food additive themselves-- although, there are many that are problematic that are linked to cancer, linked to allergy, linked to ADD.

我不认为食品添加剂本身——尽管有很多问题与癌症、过敏、ADD有关。

I think there are a lot of data about this.

我认为这方面有很多数据。

Right.

正确的。

They're not creating--

他们不是在创造——

It's not like--

这不像是——

--orange steaks .

——橙子牛排。

Yeah.

是的。

You're not getting these chemicals when you order broccoli at a restaurant.

当您在餐馆点西兰花时，您不会获得这些化学物质。

So how do you tease out all of it?

那么你如何梳理出所有这些呢？

How do you do human trials on this?

你们如何对此进行人体试验？

It's very hard.

这很难。

But in Europe, they have the precautionary principle.

但在欧洲，他们有预防原则。

It was, you have to prove it's safe before we add it to the food supply.

是的，在我们将其添加到食品供应中之前，您必须证明它是安全的。

Crisco is a great example.

克里斯科就是一个很好的例子。

Crisco was invented in 1911.

Crisco 于 1911 年发明。

It was shortening because there was a butter shortage.

由于黄油短缺，时间缩短了。

And so they basically created this product, which is blowing hydrogen atoms into liquid vegetable oil that makes it act like an animal fat, like lard or butter.

因此，他们基本上创造了这种产品，将氢原子吹入液体植物油中，使其起到动物脂肪的作用，如猪油或黄油。

I remember a tub of that in our cupboard when I was a kid.

我记得小时候我们的橱柜里有一桶这样的东西。

Yeah.

是的。

I grew up on Fleischmann's margarine.

我是靠弗莱施曼的人造黄油长大的。

And.

和。

And it wasn't until the scientists who've been studying this for 50 years-- it was 90 years old at the time-- sued the FDA and forced them to really do something about it that it got taken off the Generally Recognized As Safe list, which is called the GRAS list.

直到研究这个药物 50 年的科学家们——当时它已经 90 岁了——起诉 FDA 并迫使他们真正采取行动，它才被从公认安全名单（即 GRAS 名单）中删除。

Now, you asked about MAHA.

现在，你问到了 MAHA。

Well, one of the first things Robert F.

嗯，首先要做的事情之一是罗伯特·F.

Kennedy did-- and I helped advise him on-- this was to help address the GRAS problem.

肯尼迪这样做了——我也为他提供了建议——这是为了帮助解决 GRAS 问题。

Because there's something called the GRAS loophole.

因为有一个叫做 GRAS 的漏洞。

The other day I saw something on X that, if true-- and I'll put a link to it-- was probably the most troubling thing I've ever seen in public health discourse.

有一天，我在 X 上看到了一些内容，如果属实的话——我会放一个链接——可能是我在公共卫生讨论中见过的最令人不安的事情。

OK.

好的。

What?

什么？

And I want that to lead to a question for you.

我希望这能向你提出一个问题。

This was an example of a hearing in Washington, where a young woman-- I believe she's from Austin-- who's a kind of like, health, health-food--

这是华盛顿举行的一次听证会的一个例子，一位年轻女士——我相信她来自奥斯汀——她是一种健康食品——

Influencer.

影响者。

--advocate.

- 提倡。

Yeah, advocate, but with training from a university down there-- was lobbying against soda in the government-funded lunch program.

是的，倡导者，但经过那里一所大学的培训，正在游说政府资助的午餐计划中反对汽水。

Lunch or food stamp?

午餐还是食品券？

SNAP program.

快照计划。

SNAP is the food stamp.

SNAP 是食品券。

It's called Supplemental Nutrition Assistance program, but there's no N in there.

它被称为补充营养援助计划，但里面没有“N”。

OK.

好的。

Our goal is to put the N back in SNAP.

我们的目标是让 N 重新回到 SNAP 状态。

Got it.

知道了。

OK.

好的。

Because-- just to clarify .

因为——只是为了澄清。

Yeah, please.

是的，请。

Food security is having enough calories.

粮食安全就是有足够的热量。

Nutrition security is having enough nutrients.

营养安全就是有足够的营养。

We provided for food security, meaning you can get all your calories from soda and sugar.

我们提供食品安全，这意味着您可以从苏打水和糖中获取所有卡路里。

But that doesn't mean you have nutrition security.

但这并不意味着你有营养保障。

And we see many of the people who receive these federal aid programs are the ones who are most sick and the most using our healthcare system.

我们看到许多接受这些联邦援助计划的人是病情最严重且最常使用我们的医疗保健系统的人。

Thanks for that clarification.

感谢您的澄清。

This young woman advocating for healthier food was arguing for getting a sugary soda-- this wasn't diet soda-- sugary soda out of the SNAP program.

这位倡导更健康食品的年轻女性主张从 SNAP 计划中获取含糖汽水——这不是无糖汽水——含糖汽水。

And she made her case.

她提出了自己的理由。

It was a terrific case, well articulated, I think, and was well received by both the blue side and the red side of the room.

我认为这是一个很棒的案例，表达得很好，并且受到了房间里的蓝色方和红色方的好评。

Do you know why?

你知道为什么吗？

I thought, OK, this has got to either be AI generated-- it's fake.

我想，好吧，这要么是人工智能生成的——它是假的。

But then one of the women on the panel who was listening, one of the people making decisions-- or, at least, running it up the flagpole for decisions-- said, wait, do you realize what you're saying?

但随后，小组中一位正在倾听的女性、一位做出决定的人——或者至少是在旗杆上做决定的人——说，等等，你意识到你在说什么吗？

And he just kept repeating this like a broken record.

他就像一张破唱片一样不断地重复着这句话。

And I thought, OK.

我想，好吧。

If it was the American Soda Association or Beverage Association-- or Hydration Association, even-- I would have thought, OK, maybe there's something here.

如果是美国汽水协会或饮料协会——甚至是水合协会——我会想，好吧，也许这里有什么东西。

But he was there representing the American Heart Association.

但他代表美国心脏协会出席了会议。

I can answer that question.

我可以回答这个问题。

And I was shocked.

我很震惊。

And I will provide a link to this in the show-note captions.

我将在演示说明标题中提供指向此内容的链接。

I was--

我当时——

You shouldn't be.

你不应该这样。

--shocked.

——震惊。

You shouldn't be.

你不应该这样。

You shouldn't be.

你不应该这样。

And I thought to myself, this guy's arguing for sugary soda on behalf of the American Heart Association.

我心想，这家伙代表美国心脏协会主张含糖汽水。

And these are sugary sodas that the American taxpayer is paying to try and help some of the least healthy and lowest-income people in the country drink more soda.

这些是美国纳税人支付的含糖苏打水，旨在帮助该国一些最不健康和收入最低的人喝更多的苏打水。

And it wasn't like, take away soda and don't replace it with anything.

这并不是说，拿走苏打水，不要用任何东西代替。

It was, replace it with some other food.

是的，用其他食物代替它。

Or double bucks for fruits and vegetables.

或者双倍的价格购买水果和蔬菜。

Right, or even water.

对了，甚至是水。

So I was shocked.

所以我很震惊。

I verified it's real.

我验证了这是真的。

OK.

好的。

So I'd like your thoughts on that, but I'm guessing what they are already.

所以我想听听你对此的想法，但我猜它们已经是什么了。

But here's what I want to know.

但这就是我想知道的。

Is the FDA and our government so strongly impacted by these food companies?

FDA 和我们的政府是否受到这些食品公司的强烈影响？

You hear this, but it always sounds like a bunch of--

你听到这个，但听起来总是像一堆——

Yeah, let me --

是的，让我——

--conspiracy stuff.

——阴谋论的东西。

--roll it back .

--将其回滚。

Like, is General Mills really lobbying behind the scenes?

比如，通用磨坊真的在幕后进行游说吗？

Yes, yes, yes.

是的，是的，是的。

Is there really a network of people--

真的有一个人际网络吗——

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

是的，是的，是的，是的。

--trying to harm us--

——试图伤害我们——

100% yes.

100%是的。

--for profit?

——为了利益？

100% yes.

100%是的。

So I was telling the story about I was in my office, seeing patients with diabetes.

所以我讲述了我在办公室里看望糖尿病患者的故事。

I'm like, what caused the food policy?

我想，是什么导致了食品政策？

And then I started to go down that rabbit hole.

然后我开始进入那个兔子洞。

And I wrote a book called "Food Fix-- How to Save Our Health, Our Economy, Our Communities, and Our Planet, One Bite at a Time," where I mapped out, from field to fork, the problems with our food industry, how it's making us sick, how it's costing us trillions of dollars, and how to fix it.

我写了一本名为《食品修复——如何拯救我们的健康、我们的经济、我们的社区和我们的星球，一次一小口》的书，其中我从田间到餐桌，列出了我们食品行业的问题，它如何让我们生病，它如何让我们损失数万亿美元，以及如何解决它。

And then I started a nonprofit, where I'd been in Washington doing this work over the last five years, way before MAHA was a thing.

然后我创办了一家非营利组织，过去五年我一直在华盛顿从事这项工作，远早于 MAHA 出现之前。

Sounds conspiracy.

听起来有阴谋。

It sounds like it is.

听起来确实如此。

And it's kind of-- I wouldn't say it's a conspiracy.

这有点——我不会说这是一个阴谋。

It's just their business strategy, which is to circle the wagons.

这只是他们的商业策略，那就是绕着马车转。

OK.

好的。

They fund the American Heart Association.

他们资助美国心脏协会。

So the food and farm industry spent $192 million that they give to the American Heart Association.

因此，食品和农业行业向美国心脏协会捐赠了 1.92 亿美元。

What does the American Heart Association do with it?

美国心脏协会用它做什么？

They educate people about nutrition.

他们对人们进行营养教育。

They hold meetings.

他们举行会议。

They have scientific panels--

他们有科学小组——

But what is the basis for sugary soda?

但含糖汽水的基础是什么？

There's no single argument for sugary soda.

对于含糖汽水没有任何争议。

If you get $20 million from the soda industry-- I mean, it's like that, Andrew.

如果你从汽水行业获得 2000 万美元——我的意思是，就是这样，安德鲁。

I'm not--

我不是——

But maybe diet soda of all the-- and then we could argue artificial sweeteners, but at least we know it can help people lose weight.

但也许无糖汽水——然后我们可以争论人造甜味剂，但至少我们知道它可以帮助人们减肥。

They're ingesting less sugar.

他们摄入的糖越来越少。

And--

还有——

No. Like, 40% of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, which is the national nutrition organization, comes from the food industry-- the American Diabetes Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Family Practice--

不。比如，国家营养组织营养与饮食学会 40% 的成员来自食品行业——美国糖尿病协会、美国儿科学会、美国家庭诊所——

OK, this has to change.

好吧，这必须改变。

Coca-Cola gave a multi-million-dollar donation to the American Academy of Family Practice.

可口可乐向美国家庭医学学会捐赠了数百万美元。

And they were family doctors that quit in droves because of this.

而他们都是家庭医生，因此纷纷辞职。

When did this start?

这是从什么时候开始的？

I think it's been growing.

我认为它一直在增长。

And so there's multiple strategies they have.

所以他们有多种策略。

One is massive lobbying.

一是大规模游说。

Two is funding professional associations.

二是资助专业协会。

But was this in the '80s, the '90s?

但这是在80年代、90年代吗？

I think it's been slow creep over the last-- since probably the '70s is my guess.

我认为过去的发展一直很缓慢——因为我猜测可能是 70 年代。

Because you look in the '60s and the beach pictures-- there's nobody overweight, right?

因为你看看 60 年代的海滩照片——没有人超重，对吧？

When I was growing up, there were probably two fat kids in school.

当我长大的时候，学校里可能有两个胖孩子。

Yeah, yeah.

是啊是啊。

They've done all these strategic things around lobbying, around funding professional associations, funding academic research-- 12 times as much academic research on nutrition as the federal government spends.

他们围绕游说、资助专业协会、资助学术研究做了所有这些战略性的事情——营养方面的学术研究经费是联邦政府的 12 倍。

They co-opt social groups, like NAACP and Hispanic Federation, so they won't oppose things like things that they care about, or they'll oppose things they care about, like soda taxes.

他们拉拢全国有色人种协进会和西班牙裔联合会等社会团体，这样他们就不会反对他们关心的事情，或者他们会反对他们关心的事情，比如汽水税。

And they fund fake science groups, like the American Council on Science and Health that's attacked me, maybe attacked you too.

他们资助假科学团体，例如攻击我的美国科学与健康委员会，也许也攻击了你。

Not yet.

还没有。

I'm sure they will--

我确信他们会——

Like--

就像——

--after this episode, but I don't care.

——在这一集之后，但我不在乎。

--Unbiased Science and all these great-sounding organizations that are simply front groups for misinformation-- CropLife.

——《公正的科学》和所有这些听起来很伟大的组织，其实都是错误信息的幌子——《作物生命》。

And so they have a whole strategic approach that is very detailed.

所以他们有一个非常详细的整体战略方法。

And I map the whole thing out in my book and how it's so insidious and how it happened while everybody else was asleep.

我在我的书中描绘了整个事情，以及它是如何如此阴险以及它是如何在其他人都睡着的时候发生的。

Well, it's confusing, even as somebody who is fairly versed in health and nutrition.

好吧，即使对于一个相当精通健康和营养的人来说，这也是令人困惑的。

Like, I'm--

就像，我是——

I'll give you an example.

我给你举个例子。

I mean, it's--

我的意思是，这是——

It's not confusing.

这并不令人困惑。

I'll give you an example.

我给你举个例子。

So I was working on a bill that was with Andy Harris, who's a doctor in Congress, to do a pilot study to see the impact-- not to change policy, just to see the impact-- of what would happen if you took soda off the list of acceptable things you could buy with food stamp dollars-- just to do a pilot in a couple of states.

因此，我正在与国会医生安迪·哈里斯（Andy Harris）一起制定一项法案，进行一项试点研究，看看如果将苏打水从可以用食品券美元购买的可接受物品清单中删除，会产生什么影响，而不是改变政策，只是为了看看会发生什么，只是在几个州进行试点。

You think, well, let's just do a scientific study and see what happens.

你想，好吧，让我们进行一项科学研究，看看会发生什么。

The Democrats were completely opposed to it.

民主党对此表示完全反对。

They shut the whole thing down.

他们关闭了整个事情。

On what grounds?

依据什么？

The hunger groups.

饥饿群体。

It's based on this idea of, like, we're going to take care of the poor.

它基于这样的想法，比如我们要照顾穷人。

It's discriminatory.

这是歧视性的。

It's aggressive.

它很有侵略性。

It's going to hurt the poor.

这会伤害穷人。

And the hunger groups that are these big groups that try to deal with hunger in America are funded by-- and their boards of directors are staffed by-- people from Big Food.

饥饿组织是这些试图解决美国饥饿问题的大型组织，其资金来源是来自大食品公司的人员，其董事会成员也是由来自大食品公司的人员组成。

So if you just follow the money, you see how it all is connected and how it all flows together.

因此，如果你只关注资金，你就会看到这一切是如何相互联系以及如何流动在一起的。

And what are Big Food?

什么是大食品？

So what are the companies?

那么都有哪些公司呢？

OK, so they're are companies you know about.

好的，所以他们是您认识的公司。

There's even things like Primal Kitchen, which you think is like a great, natural brand and started by Mark Sisson.

甚至还有像 Primal Kitchen 这样的东西，你会认为它是一个伟大的、天然的品牌，由 Mark Sisson 创立。

And it's salad dressings and ketchup without high-fructose corn syrup-- and great product.

它是不含高果糖玉米糖浆的沙拉酱和番茄酱——而且是很棒的产品。

They're all bought up by the Big Food companies, like Mondelez or by Kraft.

它们都被亿滋或卡夫等大型食品公司收购。

Kraft Heinz, for example, bought that.

例如，卡夫亨氏就买了它。

Or Hu Chocolate, which-- thank god-- will stay the same forever because Jason Karp was a friend, made sure they would.

或者胡巧克力，谢天谢地，它将永远保持不变，因为贾森·卡普是朋友，确保他们会这样做。

But they bought Hu chocolate, which we think is a natural brand.

但他们买了胡巧克力，我们认为这是一个天然品牌。

It's the biggest-selling premium chocolate in America.

它是美国最畅销的优质巧克力。

If I take a step back from this-- I say, OK.

如果我退一步——我说，好吧。

Well, Mark, I haven't tried Primal Kitchen, but I hear good things.

嗯，马克，我还没有尝试过原始厨房，但我听说了一些不错的东西。

Mark seems like a very health-conscious guy-- so Mark Sisson, right?

马克看起来是一个非常注重健康的人——所以马克·西森，对吧？

Yeah, yeah.

是啊是啊。

So if his brand was bought up by one of these major companies, why aren't they promoting the healthier foods in their catalog?

那么，如果他的品牌被这些大公司之一收购，为什么他们不在他们的产品目录中推广更健康的食品呢？

Well, they do.

嗯，他们确实这么做了。

They do.

他们确实这么做了。

But also, like, Jason Karp with Hu chocolate made them, in the contract, promise they would never change the ingredients, ever.

而且，像杰森·卡普（Jason Karp）和胡巧克力一样，他们在合同中承诺永远不会改变成分。

I see.

我懂了。

And when you often get these other products that have been bought up by these big companies, they modify the recipes.

当你经常得到这些大公司收购的其他产品时，他们会修改配方。

They make it cheaper.

他们让它更便宜。

They squeeze their margins to be bigger.

他们挤压利润以获得更大的利润。

So it's not like you're going to get Amy's whatever pizza or whatever-- sounds like great, healthy pizza.

所以你不会去买艾米的任何披萨或其他东西——听起来很棒、健康的披萨。

But they modify it.

但他们修改了它。

I see.

我懂了。

And so I think, as a whole, they still get most of their profit margin from their legacy products of junk.

因此，我认为，总体而言，他们的大部分利润率仍然来自于他们的传统垃圾产品。

So they don't want to cannibalize that, but they also want to suck up the rest of the market so they have a monopoly.

因此，他们不想蚕食这一市场，但他们也想吸纳其余市场，从而获得垄断地位。

I see.

我懂了。

But there's probably a few dozen CEOs that are in control of everything, from what seeds are planted to what chemicals are sprayed, to the food companies that process the food, to the fast-food companies.

但可能有几十位首席执行官控制着一切，从种植什么种子到喷洒什么化学品，到加工食品的食品公司，再到快餐公司。

It's not that many companies.

这样的公司并不多。

And it's a few dozen CEOs that control the biggest industry on the planet that employs more than everybody else because everybody eats.

几十位首席执行官控制着这个地球上最大的行业，这个行业的就业人数比其他人都多，因为每个人都吃饭。

It's, like, $16 trillion.

大约是 16 万亿美元。

And are you and Bobby going to change the way that works?

你和鲍比会改变工作方式吗？

That's the goal.

这就是目标。

The idea is to raise awareness, to create transparency, to help people understand what's what, and to take the veil back and say, you can choose whatever you want to eat.

这个想法是为了提高认识，创造透明度，帮助人们了解什么是什么，并揭开面纱并说，你可以选择任何你想吃的东西。

We're not taking away your McDonald's.

我们不会拿走你们的麦当劳。

We're not taking away your soda.

我们不会拿走你的苏打水。

But at least you should know what's going on.

但至少你应该知道发生了什么。

If you go to South America-- you're from Argentina.

如果你去南美洲——你来自阿根廷。

I'm sure you've been there not too recent past.

我确信你不久前去过那里。

If you pick up something that's not good for you, it tells you on the label.

如果您选择了对您不利的东西，它会在标签上告诉您。

It's, like, black warning signs and hazard signs and stop signs and--

就像黑色警告标志、危险标志和停车标志——

Well, there, the opposite problem exists.

那么，存在相反的问题。

As the child of a first-generation immigrant, my dad always said, the United States is the one country where the poor are overweight because calories are cheap.

作为第一代移民的孩子，我父亲总是说，美国是一个穷人超重的国家，因为卡路里很便宜。

You go to Argentina, and you see these neighborhoods that are of immense poverty, and people are not overweight.

你去阿根廷，你会看到这些社区非常贫困，而且人们并不超重。

People are struggling to find food.

人们正在努力寻找食物。

Some are, and some aren't.

有些是，有些不是。

Like, if you look at-- there was a whole series in the "New York Times" a few years ago about how, for example, Nestlé went into the ghettos of, I think, Peru and Colombia, Brazil.

就像，如果你看一下——几年前《纽约时报》上有一个完整的系列，讲述雀巢如何进入秘鲁、哥伦比亚和巴西的贫民窟。

And they were just pushing through local-- community members and reps would drive around with little carts or push the carts around where there's not even a street to sell all this crappy processed food to people for pennies.

他们只是在当地推动——社区成员和代表会推着小推车到处走动，或者推着小推车到处走，那里甚至没有一条街道，可以以几美分的价格向人们出售所有这些蹩脚的加工食品。

And so that's what they've done.

这就是他们所做的。

They've infiltrated everywhere in the planet.

他们已经渗透到地球的各个角落。

Where they actually need quality.

他们真正需要质量的地方。

And it's often--

而且常常是——

Protein is what's scarce.

蛋白质是稀缺的。

It's often cheaper than water in many countries, like in Mexico.

在许多国家（例如墨西哥），它通常比水便宜。

So I think we have to face the fact that we've had this sort of unadulterated, uninhibited run from the industry.

所以我认为我们必须面对这样一个事实：我们已经受到了行业的这种纯粹、不受约束的控制。

And now there's somebody talking about why they need to think about doing things differently, how they need to reformulate, how they need to be partners.

现在有人谈论为什么他们需要考虑以不同的方式做事，他们需要如何重新制定，他们需要如何成为合作伙伴。

Yeah, it's intentionally confusing.

是的，这是故意混淆视听。

100%.

100%。

Well, single-ingredient or minimal-ingredient-foods solve that.

那么，单一成分或最少成分的食物可以解决这个问题。

I'd like to take us from one controversial topic-- and thank you, by the way-- I should say, before moving on from that-- for being involved and staying involved.

我想让我们离开一个有争议的话题——顺便说一句，谢谢你——在继续讨论之前我应该​​说——感谢你参与并继续参与。

I know your inherent goodness and your desire to keep things non-partisan and to do what's best for people and to keep it out of the politics as much as possible.

我知道你与生俱来的善良，也知道你不偏不倚地做事、做对人民最有利的事情、并尽可能不参与政治的愿望。

These are the things I've been working on for years.

这些是我多年来一直在努力的事情。

And so I'm just-- whether it's--

所以我只是——无论是——

You're just being you.

你只是你而已。

I'm just being me, whether it's medically tailored meals, or raising the awareness around chronic disease, or the effect of toxins in our environment, or the role of sugar and starch in our metabolic crisis.

我只是做我自己，无论是医学定制的膳食，还是提高人们对慢性疾病的认识，或者环境中毒素的影响，或者糖和淀粉在我们代谢危机中的作用。

Theses are things that are not new.

这些并不是什么新鲜事。

I've talked about these for decades.

我已经谈论这些几十年了。

Now, all of a sudden, it's a political issue.

现在，突然之间，这是一个政治问题。

I don't understand why.

我不明白为什么。

You're not putting on a new hat.

你没有戴上新帽子。

No.

不。

You're not putting on a new hat.

你没有戴上新帽子。

Government's putting on a new hat, getting involved in these things.

政府正在戴上新帽子，介入这些事情。

I'm hopeful.

我充满希望。

They've always been involved, but they just have been involved unknowingly, by allowing policies to be implemented that support things like soda and junk food.

他们一直参与其中，但他们只是在不知不觉中参与其中，允许实施支持苏打水和垃圾食品等产品的政策。

If you look at other countries' food assistance programs, you can't buy that shit.

如果你看看其他国家的粮食援助计划，你就买不到这些东西。

Right, right.

对，对。

Let's talk about something almost as controversial, something that I have kind of a neutral opinion on that I think is a beautiful scientific story, which is GLP-1 agonists, discovered on the basis of the Gila monster, which doesn't need to eat very much over-- or synthesizes a lot of this peptide, which limits its hunger.

让我们来谈谈一些几乎同样有争议的事情，我对此有一种中立的看法，我认为这是一个美丽的科学故事，它是 GLP-1 激动剂，是在吉拉毒蜥的基础上发现的，吉拉毒蜥不需要吃太多，也不需要合成大量这种肽，从而限制了它的饥饿感。

And it works at the level of the brain and at the level of the gut.

它在大脑和肠道层面发挥作用。

Although, you can't exercise your way out of a bad diet.

尽管如此，你无法通过锻炼来摆脱不良的饮食习惯。

Right, right.

对，对。

Do you think there are use cases for GLP-1 that warrant its prescription?

您认为 GLP-1 是否有值得开处方的用例？

And what's the controversy with GLP-1 all about?

GLP-1 的争议到底是什么？

Is it the dependence, the insurance?

是依赖、保险吗？

I mean, we don't have three hours to parse this, but--

我的意思是，我们没有三个小时的时间来解析这个，但是——

I can give you the quick down and dirty on it.

我可以给你快速介绍一下它的情况。

Yeah, what's your view on GLP-1?

是的，您对 GLP-1 有何看法？

Because I think some people have clearly benefited from it.

因为我认为有些人显然从中受益。

Other people probably don't need it at all.

其他人可能根本不需要它。

I don't take it.

我不接受。

I wouldn't take it.

我不会接受。

But I'm pretty good at regulating what I put in my mouth.

但我很擅长控制自己放进嘴里的东西。

Look.

看。

Like you said, this is a molecule that the body naturally makes to regulate appetite.

就像你说的，这是身体自然产生的一种调节食欲的分子。

But it's been giving it doses that are far greater than that which our body naturally makes.

但它所给予的剂量远远大于我们身体自然产生的剂量。

And when you overdo something, there are downstream consequences.

当你做得过度时，就会产生下游后果。

Insulin is a peptide.

胰岛素是一种肽。

Ozempic is a peptide.

Ozempic 是一种肽。

GLP-1-- these are peptides.

GLP-1——这些是肽。

These are small miniproteins.

这些是小的微型蛋白质。

Think of that as what a peptide is.

可以将其视为肽。

And insulin, if you take too much of it, will kill you.

而胰岛素，如果你服用太多，就会杀死你。

Literally, you'll go into hypoglycemic shock.

从字面上看，你会陷入低血糖休克。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Yeah.

是的。

People who come off it gain the weight back?

戒掉它的人体重会反弹吗？

100%.

100%。

They just started eating more again?

他们又开始吃得更多了？

Yeah.

是的。

And they have lower muscle mass?

他们的肌肉质量较低？

And then you're in a worse situation because you have a lower muscle mass.

然后你的情况会更糟，因为你的肌肉质量较低。

So you could eat literally the same amount of calories as you were before you lost weight and gain weight because your metabolism was messed up.

因此，你吃的卡路里实际上与减肥之前和体重增加之前一样多，因为你的新陈代谢被搞乱了。

What if they exercise using resistance training to offset that?

如果他们通过阻力训练来抵消这一点怎么办？

I personally think it should be illegal to prescribe these drugs, unless they're combined with a nutrition consult to educate people about their protein requirements that are increased and with an exercise-- or a trainer, a physiologist or a trainer, to help them develop a strength-training program.

我个人认为开这些药物应该是非法的，除非它们与营养咨询结合起来，教育人们了解他们增加的蛋白质需求，并与训练师、生理学家或训练师结合起来，帮助他们制定力量训练计划。

And then I'd be more OK with it.

然后我就更能接受了。

And I think doses also-- do we need the doses that people are prescribed through pharmacologically approved drugs?

我认为剂量也是——我们是否需要通过药理学批准的药物给人们开出的剂量？

Or there's a whole black market of GLP-1 peptides you can buy for $20 a month, not $1,600 or $1,700 a month.

或者有一个完整的 GLP-1 肽黑市，您可以每月花 20 美元购买，而不是每月 1,600 美元或 1,700 美元。

People are starting to discover those.

人们开始发现这些。

They're very inexpensive.

它们非常便宜。

They're very inexpensive.

它们非常便宜。

And you have to know what you're doing.

而且你必须知道你在做什么。

And you have to probably get the guidance of a physician.

而且您可能必须得到医生的指导。

And there are doctors who do prescribe these subpharmacologic doses that are being given.

有些医生确实会开出这些亚药理剂量的处方。

And they work.

他们工作。

And they can be a useful tool, but they're a tool like anything else.

它们可以是一个有用的工具，但它们和其他工具一样。

Such as?

例如？

For example, if you look at the crisis in mental health in this country-- we have a severe mental health crisis.

例如，如果你看看这个国家的心理健康危机——我们面临着严重的心理健康危机。

And we've used ketogenic diets in neurologic conditions, like epilepsy, in medicine for decades.

几十年来，我们在医学上一直在神经系统疾病（如癫痫）中使用生酮饮食。

We now know, for example, that ketogenic diets can be very effective for schizophrenia, for things like autism, for Alzheimer's, for people with bipolar disease or depression or anxiety.

例如，我们现在知道，生酮饮食对于精神分裂症、自闭症、阿尔茨海默氏症、躁郁症、抑郁症或焦虑症患者非常有效。

And this has to do with its effect on the metabolism and the way it affects our brain and our mitochondria.

这与它对新陈代谢的影响以及它影响我们的大脑和线粒体的方式有关。

You've written a lot of books.

你写了很多书。

I've written, like, 20 books.

我已经写了大约 20 本书。

So it's--

所以这是——

I'm impressed.

我印象深刻。

Yeah.

是的。

You're working on one, I know.

我知道你正在开发一个。

Yeah, yeah.

是啊是啊。

I mean, it's big enough to serve as a workout for lifting-- no, it's not that thick.

我的意思是，它足够大，可以用作举重训练——不，它没有那么厚。

But--

但是——

It doubles as an advice book and a training--

它既可以作为建议书，也可以作为培训——

It's got a lot in there.

里面有很多东西。

It's got a lot.

它有很多。

But you have an impressive catalog of really terrific books.

但你有一个令人印象深刻的目录，里面有非常精彩的书籍。

But--

但是——

But Mayo Clinic just got funded over $3 million to do research on the role of ketogenic diets in serious mental illness.

但梅奥诊所刚刚获得超过 300 万美元的资助，用于研究生酮饮食在严重精神疾病中的作用。

You mentioned Stanford has a Department of Metabolic Psychiatry.

您提到斯坦福大学有一个代谢精神病学系。

At Harvard, they have a similar Department of Nutritional Psychiatry.

在哈佛大学，他们有一个类似的营养精神病学系。

What about other diets?

其他饮食呢？

So ketogenic, a lot of people think of that as high protein.

如此生酮，很多人认为它是高蛋白质。

It's really more high fat--

确实脂肪含量更高——

It's not.

事实并非如此。

It's high fat.

这是高脂肪。

--moderate protein, very low starch.

——适量的蛋白质，极低的淀粉。

What about for cancer and cancer avoidance?

那么对于癌症和避免癌症呢？

Again, when you look at the data, cancer rates are going up.

同样，当你查看数据时，癌症发病率正在上升。

And it's because our metabolic crisis is going up.

这是因为我们的新陈代谢危机正在加剧。

And many cancers are obesity related-- colon cancer, breast cancer, pancreatic cancer, many, many-- prostate cancer.

许多癌症都与肥胖有关——结肠癌、乳腺癌、胰腺癌，还有很多很多——前列腺癌。

And they're driven by insulin resistance.

它们是由胰岛素抵抗驱动的。

And we know that cancer has a metabolic capacity to only burn carbs.

我们知道癌症具有只燃烧碳水化合物的代谢能力。

It can't burn fat.

它不能燃烧脂肪。

So if you stop carbs and you eat fat, you can often change the trajectory of cancer .

因此，如果你停止摄入碳水化合物并吃脂肪，通常可以改变癌症的发展轨迹。

Is that true for all cancers?

所有癌症都是如此吗？

Are there any cancers that react negatively to--

是否有任何癌症会对——

Yeah, I don't think that's true for all cancer.

是的，我不认为所有癌症都是如此。

For lymphomas, I probably don't think it is.

对于淋巴瘤，我可能不这么认为。

But Siddhartha Mukherjee-- I don't know if you've had him on the podcast, but he's an incredible giant in the field of medicine, a brilliant scientist at Columbia who's actually an oncologist who wrote a book called "The Emperor of All Maladies." And he--

但是悉达多·慕克吉——我不知道你是否在播客上看过他，但他是医学领域的一位令人难以置信的巨人，哥伦比亚大学的一位杰出科学家，实际上是一位肿瘤学家，写了一本名为《万病之王》的书。而他——

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

He wrote that book?

那本书是他写的？

Yeah, he wrote that book.

是的，他写了那本书。

He wrote "The Cell." He wrote--

他写了《细胞》。他写道——

That was a book about cancer.

那是一本关于癌症的书。

Yeah, yeah.

是啊是啊。

He wrote a book called "The Gene," "The Cell." And he talks about his research on ketogenic diets for reversing stage 4 melanoma, stage 4 pancreatic cancer-- very impressive stuff.

他写了一本名为《基因》、《细胞》的书。他谈到了他关于生酮饮食逆转第四期黑色素瘤、第四期胰腺癌的研究——非常令人印象深刻的东西。

Yeah.

是的。

Probably, I could connect you to--

或许，我可以帮你联系——

Well, I remember "The Emperor of all Maladies." I read that and I read "The Eighth Day of Creation" in roughly the same time period.

嗯，我记得《万病之王》。我读到那本书和《创世第八天》几乎是在同一时间段读的。

Both are super impressive books.

两本都是超级令人印象深刻的书。

I didn't realize he was involved in a ketogenic diet.

我没有意识到他参与了生酮饮食。

Yeah, but there's a whole metabolic theory of cancer.

是的，但是癌症有一个完整的代谢理论。

So I think that's key.

所以我认为这是关键。

And certain cancers, like brain cancer, responds incredibly well.

某些癌症，如脑癌，反应非常好。

If you have a glioblastoma, which there's really no treatment for, it can be very effective.

如果您患有胶质母细胞瘤，而且确实无法治疗，那么它可能非常有效。

Yeah.

是的。

I'll tell you, having lost some friends to cancer, pancreatic cancer and glioblastoma are the two-- I mean, I don't want any cancer, but those are the two I really don't want to get.

我告诉你，我失去了一些朋友，因为癌症，胰腺癌和胶质母细胞瘤就是这两种——我的意思是，我不想要任何癌症，但那两种是我真的不想得到的。

Yeah, yeah.

是啊是啊。

These are all super important topics.

这些都是非常重要的话题。

It seems to come back over and over again to these pillars of health-- foods, circadian rhythm-- meaning sleep-wake cycles.

人们似乎一次又一次地回到健康的支柱——食物、昼夜节律——即睡眠-觉醒周期。

Obviously, the last 50 years in this country were characterized by, like, smoke less or don't smoke.

显然，这个国家过去 50 年的特点是少吸烟或不吸烟。

We now know alcohol is problematic for cancers and other things-- not to say that one can't enjoy a--

我们现在知道酒精会导致癌症和其他疾病——并不是说人们不能享受——

A drink once in awhile.

偶尔喝一杯。

--drink every once in a while.

——偶尔喝一杯。

But I don't personally drink, but I don't have a propensity for alcohol either.

但我个人不喝酒，但也没有喝酒的倾向。

So it's easy for me to say-- I've had to become a little bit softer on my stance on this.

所以对我来说很容易说——我必须在这方面的立场变得更加温和一些。

Because if you told me that caffeine was bad, I'd tell you, I'm drinking it.

因为如果你告诉我咖啡因不好，我会告诉你，我正在喝它。

I'd say, how long do I have?

我会说，我还有多久？

Yeah.

是的。

It's like Warren Buffett.

这就像沃伦·巴菲特。

He says, I don't care if I eat this shit if it makes me live a couple of years less.

他说，我不在乎吃这些东西，只要它能让我少活几年。

I'm still going to do it.

我还是会去做。

Right.

正确的。

So some people like a drink now and again.

所以有些人喜欢时不时地喝一杯。

And sure.

当然。

I always say, do as you want, but know what you're doing.

我总是说，做你想做的事，但要知道你在做什么。

But I'd like to talk a little bit about markers that are an outgrowth of this conversation about food-- so blood markers.

但我想谈谈一些标记物，这些标记物是关于食物的对话的产物——所以血液标记物。

So Apo B is one that gets a lot of attention nowadays.

因此，Apo B 是当今备受关注的一种。

For years, all we heard was, you want your HDL high.

多年来，我们听到的都是“你想要高 HDL”。

You want your LDL low.

您希望您的低密度脂蛋白水平较低。

Yeah.

是的。

It's a great question.

这是一个很好的问题。

And I learned that from Function.

我从 Function 中学到了这一点。

And, yes, they're a sponsor of this podcast.

是的，他们是这个播客的赞助商。

But I hadn't had an Apo B test.

但我没有进行 Apo B 测试。

And that was the problem.

这就是问题所在。

I'd go to the doctor, I'd get a blood panel, and it didn't include Apo B.

我去看医生，做了血液检查，结果不包括 Apo B。

No. You get, like, your 19 tests.

不，你会得到 19 项测试。

And they're the same old stuff.

而且它们都是同样的旧东西。

And you get your regular cholesterol count.

您会得到常规胆固醇计数。

It was like, height, weight, .

就像，身高、体重……。

The regular cholesterol panel is what most doctors use to manage cardiovascular risk, which is your total, your LDL, HDL, and triglyceride levels.

大多数医生用来管理心血管风险的常规胆固醇指标是您的总胆固醇、低密度脂蛋白、高密度脂蛋白和甘油三酯水平。

That's just so 20th century.

这就是20世纪的事了。

The way we look at cardiovascular risk now is way more complicated.

我们现在看待心血管风险的方式要复杂得多。

And we need to look at the quality of the cholesterol, which is the particle size and number.

我们需要关注胆固醇的质量，即颗粒大小和数量。

And we were talking earlier about sugar and starch, insulin resistance.

我们之前讨论过糖和淀粉以及胰岛素抵抗。

Insulin resistance is essentially a metabolic state where your body can't respond like it normally should to insulin, and you need more and more insulin to keep your blood sugar normal.

胰岛素抵抗本质上是一种代谢状态，您的身体无法像正常情况下那样对胰岛素做出反应，并且您需要越来越多的胰岛素来保持血糖正常。

And yet, they're trying to include soda?

然而，他们却想把苏打水包括在内？

Sorry, I had to go back to it.

抱歉，我不得不回去。

I know.

我知道。

And the way--

还有方式——

hypocrites.

伪君子。

--I think about Apo B-- because there's really cool tests now.

--我想到 Apo B--因为现在有非常酷的测试。

You can use mass spec to look at C-peptide and insulin to look at your insulin resistance, which is really cool.

您可以使用质谱来查看 C 肽，使用胰岛素来查看您的胰岛素抵抗，这真的很酷。

But if you can't get that, you can ask your doctor for an Apo B because it's sort of a surrogate marker for every non-good type of cholesterol particle, if that makes sense.

但如果您无法获得该结果，您可以向您的医生索要 Apo B，因为它可以作为每种不良胆固醇颗粒的替代标记（如果这有意义的话）。

So what do you advise somebody if their Apo B is 90 or above?

那么，如果某人的 Apo B 为 90 或以上，您有什么建议呢？

So you can test yourself.

所以你可以自己测试一下。

Everybody's n of 1.

每个人的 n 都是 1。

So the next thing I was going to say was that we treat all lipids as a uniform approach, which is, everybody should drive their LDL under 70.

所以我接下来要说的是，我们将所有脂质视为统一的方法，也就是说，每个人都应该将 LDL 控制在 70 以下。

That--

那——

Under 70?

70岁以下？

Under 70.

70岁以下。

That's what cardiovascular recommendations are.

这就是心血管建议。

How do you do that-- exercise, nutrition?

你是怎么做到的——运动、营养？

Can be diet, can be exercise, can be drugs.

可以是饮食，可以是运动，可以是药物。

Are you a fan of statins?

您是他汀类药物的粉丝吗？

Not a big fan, but they're a tool.

虽然不是忠实粉丝，但它们是一种工具。

It's like, am I a fan of hammers?

就像，我是锤子的粉丝吗？

Well.

出色地。

yeah, when I need one, but not for everybody.

是的，当我需要的时候，但不是每个人都适合。

And I think the key thing to understand is that if you're looking at your cardiovascular risk, you have to look at the quality of these cholesterol particles.

我认为要理解的关键是，如果您要检查心血管风险，则必须检查这些胆固醇颗粒的质量。

And there's also a large amount of variation or heterogeneity in the population in the response to the exact same food.

而且人群对完全相同的食物的反应也存在很大的差异或异质性。

Nick has great online content.

尼克有很棒的在线内容。

Folks should check out Nick Norwitz's X and Instagram handle--

人们应该看看 Nick Norwitz 的 X 和 Instagram 账号——

YouTube--

YouTube--

--very smart kid--

--非常聪明的孩子--

Very smart guy.

非常聪明的人。

--very smart kid, very spirited.

——非常聪明的孩子，非常有活力。

I've encouraged him from the first time I saw his content to keep going.

从我第一次看到他的内容时我就鼓励他继续下去。

Yeah, he's great.

是的，他很棒。

He's an Oxford PhD in metabolism.

他是牛津大学新陈代谢专业的博士。

Harvard--

哈佛——

He's got Harvard, MDs, graduating medical school this year.

他拥有哈佛大学医学博士学位，今年将从医学院毕业。

And then not afraid to go against the grain--

然后就不怕违背常规——

No.

不。

He just goes with his experience and the data.

他只是凭自己的经验和数据。

Yeah.

是的。

And you're speaking about different diets, different people.

你说的是不同的饮食、不同的人。

He had colitis and almost died.

他患有结肠炎，差点就死了。

He went on a carnivore slash keto diet and actually ended up curing it and is fit and healthy now.

他采取了肉食动物大幅酮饮食，实际上最终治愈了它，现在身体健康。

But his cholesterol, his LDL went up to 500.

但他的胆固醇、低密度脂蛋白却上升到了 500。

Is that where it sits now?

那是现在的位置吗？

Yeah.

是的。

And so there's a whole group of these people that have LDLs that are through the roof that would make most cardiologists have a heart attack just looking at the number.

因此，有一整群人的低密度脂蛋白含量都很高，大多数心脏病专家只要看这个数字就会心脏病发作。

So what do we do?

那么我们该怎么办呢？

Let's say someone takes an Apo B test--

假设有人进行了 Apo B 测试——

What we do--

我们做什么——

--Function or from their doctor.

——功能或来自他们的医生。

And they've got an Apo B that's, like, 110.

他们的 Apo B 大约是 110。

What do you do?

你做什么？

Well, the NIH basically is great.

嗯，NIH 基本上很棒。

They now have said that the n-of-1 research is among the highest-quality research.

他们现在表示，n-of-1 研究是最高质量的研究之一。

And that what that means is you compared to you, right?

这意味着你与你相比，对吗？

I don't want to compare myself to a 70-kilogram, white male from Kansas or a 5-foot-tall woman from-- I don't know-- Afghanistan.

我不想将自己与来自堪萨斯州的 70 公斤重的白人男性或来自（我不知道）阿富汗的 5 英尺高的女性进行比较。

We're all different.

我们都是不同的。

And so we need to see what happens to our biology.

所以我们需要看看我们的生物学发生了什么变化。

That's why I believe test, don't guess.

这就是为什么我相信测试，而不是猜测。

And do something, follow it up, and track it.

并做某事，跟进并跟踪它。

How often?

多常？

Depends on what you're doing.

取决于你在做什么。

Lipids change very quickly.

脂质变化非常快。

Typical person.

典型的人。

Lipids can change within a month.

血脂可能会在一个月内发生变化。

So I give people a month of changing a diet or changing a lifestyle or behavior to see what happens.

因此，我给人们一个月的时间来改变饮食、生活方式或行为，看看会发生什么。

Vitamin D can take longer.

维生素 D 可能需要更长的时间。

If you're low, it can take up to three months to rebuild.

如果你的水平较低，重建可能需要三个月的时间。

If your iron is low, it can take three months to rebuild your iron.

如果您的铁含量较低，则可能需要三个月的时间才能恢复铁含量。

So it depends on the test.

所以这取决于测试。

But you can quickly see changes in your insulin resistance and your insulin levels and your blood sugar levels and your lipid levels by changing diet.

但通过改变饮食，您可以很快看到胰岛素抵抗、胰岛素水平、血糖水平和血脂水平的变化。

And--

还有——

But you have to be systematic, right?

但你必须系统化，对吧？

You can't--

你不能——

Yeah, yeah.

是啊，是啊。

I had a patient who was-- I have a program called the 10-day detox diet, which essentially is a whole-foods diet which eliminates a lot of the inflammatory foods that are problematic for people.

我有一个病人，我有一个名为“10 天排毒饮食”的计划，该计划本质上是一种全食物饮食，可以消除许多对人们有问题的炎症食物。

And it creates an incredible, quick response.

它创造了令人难以置信的快速响应。

I call it setting your body back to its original factory settings.

我称之为将你的身体恢复到原始出厂设置。

And she was like, I want to check my blood after 10 days.

她说，我想在 10 天后检查我的血液。

I'm like, no, it's going to be a waste of money.

我想，不，这会浪费钱。

We shouldn't do it.

我们不应该这样做。

Your numbers aren't going to change that much.

你的数字不会有太大变化。

But she insisted.

但她坚持说。

Well, I started eating more tuna and eating a little bit less beef.

好吧，我开始多吃金枪鱼，少吃一点牛肉。

And then--

然后——

And then you get in trouble with mercury.

然后你就会遇到汞的麻烦。

--I did a Function test, and I discovered my mercury was elevated.

--我做了功能测试，发现我的汞含量升高了。

By the way, I learned something new the hard way also a few years prior to that, which is-- I know this sounds crazy, but check your dishwasher.

顺便说一句，在那之前的几年里，我也通过艰难的方式学到了一些新东西，那就是——我知道这听起来很疯狂，但是检查一下你的洗碗机。

Some of them have mercury thermometers that are leaky.

其中一些的水银温度计存在泄漏。

Now, I was told the mercury from the mercury thermometers in dishwashers is biologically inert.

现在，我被告知洗碗机中的水银温度计中的水银具有生物惰性。

But I'll tell you, it's not pleasant to see a bunch of little mercury beads floating around on your dishes.

但我会告诉你，看到一堆小水银珠漂浮在你的盘子上是不愉快的。

I mean, considering it's the most potent toxin known to humans other than plutonium, I would probably avoid all forms of mercury.

我的意思是，考虑到它是除钚之外人类已知的最有效的毒素，我可能会避免使用所有形式的汞。

So do you eat tuna?

那么你吃金枪鱼吗？

Rarely--

很少——

Oh, I love tuna sushi.

哦，我喜欢金枪鱼寿司。

--and rawly.

——而且是原始的。

OK.

好的。

But I actually have little hacks, where you can take a chelating drug after you go to a sushi restaurant.

但我实际上有一些小窍门，你可以在去寿司店后服用螯合药。

Like what?

比如什么？

What's a--

什么是——

DMSA.

二甲基SA。

It's FDA-approved drug for heavy metal chelation.

它是 FDA 批准的重金属螯合药物。

Prescription?

处方？

Prescription.

处方。

DMSA?

二甲基SA？

Yeah.

是的。

OK.

好的。

What dosage?

什么剂量？

Depends.

视情况而定。

You can do, like, 500 milligrams or 250--

你可以做，比如，500 毫克或 250——

You'll take that after you go out to sushi?

出去吃寿司后你会吃这个吗？

Yeah.

是的。

It's kind of like a doctor hack I can do, where you can ask your doctor for it.

这有点像我可以做的医生黑客，你可以向你的医生询问。

I don't recommend it.

我不推荐它。

It's like--

这就像——

Well, as long as we're on this, let's talk-- I love the range of topics we're touching into today, by the way.

好吧，只要我们讨论这个问题，我们就谈谈——顺便说一句，我喜欢我们今天讨论的一系列话题。

And--

还有——

Because, by the way, I almost died from mercury poisoning-- so I know how to manage it, how my body works.

因为，顺便说一句，我差点死于汞中毒——所以我知道如何控制它，我的身体如何运作。

I've checked my genes and why I don't detox.

我检查了我的基因以及为什么我不排毒。

This was from the China thing?

这是来自中国的事情吗？

Yeah.

是的。

I know how to upregulate my detox pathways through food, through supplements.

我知道如何通过食物和补充剂来上调我的排毒途径。

Are you a fan of sulforaphane?

您是萝卜硫素的粉丝吗？

Absolutely.

绝对地。

When I did the episode on microplastics and PFASes, I started taking sulforaphane and increasing my cruciferous vegetable intake.

当我拍摄有关微塑料和 PFAS 的节目时，我开始服用萝卜硫素并增加十字花科蔬菜的摄入量。

Upregulates glutathione, which is the body's main detoxifying compound.

上调谷胱甘肽，这是人体的主要解毒化合物。

So do you also take N-acetylcysteine?

那么你还服用N-乙酰半胱氨酸吗？

I do, yeah.

我愿意，是的。

Daily?

日常的？

Daily, yeah.

日常，是的。

How much?

多少？

600.

600。

600 milligrams?

600毫克？

, yeah.

， 是的。

OK.

好的。

I'll do 3 or 4 times that if I feel a cold coming on, but I don't take it daily.

如果我感觉感冒了，我会这样做 3 到 4 次，但我不会每天都这样做。

I should probably take it daily.

我可能应该每天服用。

Well, considering we live in a toxic soup, we just can't get away from it in--

好吧，考虑到我们生活在有毒的汤中，我们无法摆脱它——

So sulforaphane--

所以萝卜硫素——

--the air, the water, the food.

——空气、水、食物。

--N-acetylcysteine.

--N-乙酰半胱氨酸。

We already talked about the omegas and the basics-- magnesium, et cetera.

我们已经讨论过欧米茄和基础元素——镁等等。

What are some things that when people start to hit their 40s, 50s, 60s that you think they should add in for their health?

当人们开始步入 40 多岁、50 多岁、60 多岁时，您认为为了健康应该添加哪些东西？

And is there anything female specific or male specific?

有什么女性特有或男性特有的东西吗？

For sure.

一定。

What's really frightening, Andrew, is that because of the diet we have, which is hormonally regulating-- sugar and starch tend to screw up both men's and women's hormones.

安德鲁，真正可怕的是，由于我们的饮食具有荷尔蒙调节作用，糖和淀粉往往会破坏男性和女性的荷尔蒙。

It makes women more like men and men more like women.

它让女人变得更像男人，让男人变得更像女人。

So you get PCOS in women, which is hair growth on your face, loss of hair on your head, and androgens--

所以女性会患上多囊卵巢综合症，即脸上的毛发生长、头上的毛发脱落以及雄激素——

It's androgenetic.

这是雄激素。

Yeah.

是的。

And then for men, their testosterone goes down.

对于男性来说，他们的睾丸激素会下降。

The bigger your belly, the lower your testosterone.

你的肚子越大，你的睾丸激素就越低。

So when you eat start and sugar, you get belly fat.

所以当你吃起始物和糖时，你就会产生腹部脂肪。

So young men have low testosterone.

所以年轻人的睾丸激素水平较低。

If you asked me 20 years ago, I'd say, well, you start checking in your 40s and seeing the changes that happened.

如果你在 20 年前问我，我会说，好吧，你在 40 多岁的时候就开始审视发生的变化。

But now I think we got to start looking earlier.

但现在我认为我们必须更早开始寻找。

And a lot of guys are getting on TRT young.

很多人在年轻时就加入了 TRT。

I'm on a bit of a campaign now to discourage that.

我现在正在开展一项活动来阻止这种情况发生。

Yeah, I don't think it's a good idea.

是的，我不认为这是一个好主意。

I think that if they're doing everything right, like eating right and exercising-- and that doesn't mean overexercising.

我认为，如果他们做的一切都是正确的，比如正确饮食和锻炼——这并不意味着过度锻炼。

If you overtrain, like if you're running, running, running--

如果你训练过度，比如你跑步、跑步、跑步——

You're draining your .

你正在耗尽你的。

--your testosterone is going to be going to be diminished, for sure-- but encouraging them to do everything they can with behaviors, including nutrition and some supplementation, before getting on TRT because of the--

——你的睾丸激素肯定会减少——但鼓励他们在接受 TRT 之前尽其所能地进行行为，包括营养和一些补充品，因为——

Testosterone.

睾酮。

--reduction in sperm count that comes from TRT unless you offset it with hCG So I've said before in the podcast, I take 25 milligrams of cypionate every other day, staggered with hCG-- 600 IU every other day.

-- TRT 导致精子数量减少，除非用 hCG 来抵消。所以我之前在播客中说过，我每隔一天服用 25 毫克环丙酸，与 hCG 交错服用 - 每隔一天 600 IU。

I've been open about that from the beginning.

我从一开始就对此持开放态度。

But I started at age 45.

但我从45岁开始。

And I do free sperm every year, just because there's some age-related effects on sperm and, like, why not?

我每年都会进行游离精子，只是因为精子会受到一些与年龄相关的影响，为什么不呢？

It's very inexpensive to cryopreserve.

冷冻保存非常便宜。

But I think young guys-- it's scary that their testosterone is so low, especially if they're not overweight.

但我认为年轻人——他们的睾丸激素如此之低是可怕的，尤其是如果他们没有超重的话。

So what's going on?

那么到底是怎么回事呢？

Well, also, there's endocrine-disrupting chemicals, so heavy metals, pesticides.

嗯，还有干扰内分泌的化学物质，比如重金属、杀虫剂。

A lot of these what we call xenobiotics, meaning they're foreign compounds that are biologically active.

其中很多我们称之为异生素，这意味着它们是具有生物活性的外来化合物。

And there's a whole book on this that I read like almost 30 years ago called "Our Stolen Future" by Theo Colburn, which lays out-- it was like the Rachel Carson "Silent Spring" version of a few years ago, which talked about the reproductive effects of these petrochemical toxins that are everywhere-- in our food, in our water, in our air.

大约 30 年前，我读过一整本书，名叫《我们被偷走的未来》，作者是西奥·科尔伯恩 (Theo Colburn)，书中阐述了——就像几年前雷切尔·卡森 (Rachel Carson) 的《寂静的春天》版本一样，其中谈到了这些无处不在的石化毒素的繁殖影响——在我们的食物中、在我们的水里、在我们的空气中。

And they affect fertility rates.

它们会影响生育率。

They affect birth rates, in terms of male and female--

它们影响男性和女性的出生率——

Shanna Swan was on this podcast.

莎娜·斯旺 (Shanna Swan) 参加了这个播客。

And, gosh, if it wasn't for her and her incredible work and the fact that she's such a skeptic of any data, I don't think people would respect the data on pesticides as much as they do.

而且，天哪，如果不是因为她和她令人难以置信的工作，以及她对任何数据都持怀疑态度，我认为人们不会像他们一样尊重农药数据。

Because I think it took somebody with her frontfacing image to-- she talks a lot about the Environmental Working Group and the real hardcore science types, they're anti Environmental Working group.

因为我认为有人带着她的正面形象——她谈论了很多关于环境工作组和真正的核心科学类型，他们是反环境工作组的。

Just to answer your question about what you should be testing, I think most people should be testing-- depending on where you are and what age you are-- but your hormonal panels on a regular basis.

只是为了回答您应该测试什么的问题，我认为大多数人都应该测试（取决于您所在的位置和年龄），但定期测试您的荷尔蒙面板。

So sex hormones-- male would be free testosterone, total testosterone, estradiol--

所以性激素——男性会有游离睾酮、总睾酮、雌二醇——

DHT as well.

双氢睾酮也是如此。

DHEA, DHT.

脱氢表雄酮、双氢睾酮。

Sometimes you have hair loss.

有时你会脱发。

That can be treated for men.

这对于男性来说是可以治疗的。

For women, same thing-- they need, you know, FSH, LH, sex hormones like estradiol, progesterone, testosterone for women as well, DHEA sulfate, which can be an indicator of PCOS.

对于女性来说，同样的事情——她们需要 FSH、LH、雌二醇、黄体酮、睾酮等性激素（女性也需要 DHEA 硫酸盐），这可能是 PCOS 的指标。

And we're seeing with our Function-- we have about 150,000 members.

我们的职能部门拥有大约 150,000 名成员。

We have literally tens--

我们实际上有几十个——

150,000?

15万？

150,000.

150,000。

We have tens of millions of biological data points.

我们拥有数千万个生物数据点。

And we can see anonymized data showing the trends in the population.

我们可以看到显示人口趋势的匿名数据。

And it's not good.

这并不好。

And then the good news is, you can do something about it.

好消息是，你可以为此做点什么。

So--

所以——

Can insurance cover a blood test like Function's?

保险可以承保像 Function 那样的血液检查吗？

Yes, if you get your health savings account or your FSAs, you can use those for Function Health testing.

是的，如果您拥有健康储蓄账户或 FSA，您可以使用它们进行功能健康测试。

But if you don't have that and you can't use that, regular insurance doesn't cover it yet.

但如果您没有并且无法使用它，则常规保险尚不承保。

I'm hoping we're going to change that.

我希望我们能够改变这一点。

Yeah.

是的。

Is that in the cards?

是在卡片上吗？

That's in the roadmap, for sure.

当然，这在路线图中。

Because once we can prove that we create value-- and we're seeing this.

因为一旦我们能够证明我们创造了价值——我们就会看到这一点。

When people use Function, they get their lab tests done, and then we follow them for every six months.

当人们使用 Function 时，他们会完成实验室测试，然后我们每六个月跟踪一次。

And we can see the changes in the biomarkers toward the positive, how many people go from abnormal to normal.

我们可以看到生物标志物向积极的方向变化，有多少人从异常变为正常。

And it's not just by knowing their tests.

这不仅仅是通过了解他们的测试。

There's tens of thousands of pages of content that have been highly curated and scientifically referenced on what to do if you have this or that normal biomarker.

有数万页的内容经过精心策划和科学参考，告诉您如果有这种或那种正常的生物标志物该怎么办。

Are you a fan of using charcoal as a chelator?

您喜欢使用木炭作为螯合剂吗？

I don't think charcoal's great for heavy metals, no. I think it's good for binding anything.

我认为木炭对于重金属来说不是很好，不是。我认为它对于绑定任何东西都有好处。

So we use it--

所以我们用它——

How does one take charcoal?

如何服用木炭？

I've been a little bit cautious about taking charcoal.

我对服用木炭有点谨慎。

You can take it as capsules.

您可以将其作为胶囊服用。

When I was in the ER, though, we used to use it if people came with a drug overdose.

不过，当我在急诊室时，如果有人服药过量，我们就会使用它。

We'd make them drink a cup of charcoal, literally.

毫不夸张地说，我们会让他们喝一杯木炭。

Their teeth would turn black.

他们的牙齿会变黑。

It was awful.

太糟糕了。

So if I--

所以如果我——

If you try to kill yourself, then it's punishment for trying to kill yourself.

如果你试图自杀，那么这就是对试图自杀的惩罚。

ANDREW HUBERMAN: This is gallows humor that only a physician could laugh at.

安德鲁·休伯曼：这是只有医生才能嘲笑的残酷幽默。

I know a number of physicians, and they all have this gallows humor.

我认识很多医生，他们都有这种残酷的幽默。

I think it's a survival tactic.

我认为这是一种生存策略。

You have to.

你必须这样做。

You have to.

你必须这样做。

Because you're in situations that would make you otherwise go crazy.

因为你所处的情况会让你发疯。

Let's say I want to remove some heavy metals and toxins from the body.

假设我想清除体内的一些重金属和毒素。

I could take a charcoal tablet.

我可以服用一块木炭片。

No. You can take a tablet, but I wouldn't do that.

不。你可以服用平板电脑，但我不会这样做。

What I would say is, one, reduce your exposures-- number one.

我想说的是，第一，减少暴露——第一。

If you're eating tuna, big fish-- it's basically, the bigger the fish, the more the mercury.

如果你吃金枪鱼、大鱼——基本上，鱼越大，汞就越多。

Right.

正确的。

I don't eat much tuna anymore.

我已经很少吃金枪鱼了。

Yeah.

是的。

So small fish-- I call it the smashers-- small wild salmon, mackerel, anchovies, sardines, and herring-- all your favorite--

那么小的鱼——我称之为粉碎鱼——小型野生鲑鱼、鲭鱼、凤尾鱼、沙丁鱼和鲱鱼——所有你最喜欢的——

I hate all those.

我讨厌所有这些。

--fish, all your favorite fish.

--鱼，所有你最喜欢的鱼。

I hate all those.

我讨厌所有这些。