How to Improve Your Memory & Cognitive Function at Any Age | Dr. Alan Castel
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Good learning happens through making mistakes.
好的学习是通过犯错误来实现的。
Just seeing something many times doesn't mean you'll remember it well.
仅仅看到某件事多次并不意味着你会记住它。
You've seen the Apple logo so many times, of course you know all the features, but then when you quiz people and test them, and I do this in my class, people aren't sure, is the bite on the left or the right-hand side?
你已经多次看到苹果的标志，当然你知道所有的功能，但是当你对人们进行测验并测试它们时，我在课堂上这样做，人们不确定，咬伤是在左边还是右边？
Is there a stem or a leaf?
有茎或叶吗？
The best way to remember something is to, again, failures.
记住某件事的最好方法就是再次失败。
I'll have you draw it without looking at it, and you struggle, and you wait, is it on the left or right?
我让你不看就画出来，你挣扎，你等待，是在左边还是在右边？
And say, is it a stem or a leaf?
并说，它是茎还是叶？
And you're starting to question all of these things.
你开始质疑所有这些事情。
Then when you look at the logo again, you're going to engage in better learning than if you hadn't done that error-full kind of trial beforehand.
然后，当您再次查看徽标时，您将比之前没有进行那种充满错误的尝试进行更好的学习。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到胡伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. Alan Castel.
今天我的客人是艾伦·卡斯特尔博士。
Dr. Alan Castel is a professor of psychology at the University of California, Los Angeles.
艾伦·卡斯特尔博士是加州大学洛杉矶分校的心理学教授。
He is one of the world's foremost experts on human memory and cognitive aging.
他是世界上人类记忆和认知衰老方面最重要的专家之一。
Today, we discuss what determines if we remember something, like a name or an event, or how to do something, and we discuss how to improve our ability to remember information of all kinds at any age.
今天，我们讨论什么决定了我们是否记住某件事，比如名字或事件，或者如何做某事，我们讨论如何提高我们在任何年龄段记住各种信息的能力。
We also discuss how any time we plan or imagine something about our future, we are always building that on memories of our past, and what that means for our ability to come up with new ideas and plans for our lives.
我们还讨论了每当我们计划或想象未来时，我们总是将其建立在过去的记忆之上，以及这对我们为生活提出新想法和计划的能力意味着什么。
And we discuss how our memory changes across the lifespan, and why some people retain exceptional cognitive abilities well into their 80s and 90s and even beyond, and what any of us can do to improve our chances of maintaining or even getting better at memory as we age.
我们还讨论了我们的记忆力在一生中是如何变化的，为什么有些人在 80 多岁、90 多岁甚至更晚的时候仍能保持出色的认知能力，以及随着年龄的增长，我们每个人可以做些什么来提高我们保持甚至改善记忆力的机会。
Indeed, while most people assume that memory decline is an inevitable consequence of getting older, Dr. Castel explains research that tells us the story is far more nuanced and more optimistic.
事实上，虽然大多数人认为记忆力下降是衰老的必然结果，但卡斯特尔博士解释说，研究告诉我们这个故事更加细致和乐观。
In fact, we cover one of the more powerful and perhaps surprising influences on our rate of cognitive aging, which is your beliefs about aging itself.
事实上，我们涵盖了对我们的认知衰老速度更强大、或许令人惊讶的影响之一，那就是你对衰老本身的信念。
And finally, we discuss so-called superagers, which is the name given to older adults whose memory performance rivals that of people decades younger.
最后，我们讨论所谓的超级老人，这是对记忆力可与年轻数十岁的人相媲美的老年人的称呼。
He explains which superager protocols are accessible to anyone and how they can be incorporated into everyday life to benefit our mental and our physical health.
他解释了哪些超级老人协议可供任何人使用，以及如何将它们纳入日常生活中以有益于我们的身心健康。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Alan Castel.
现在我与艾伦·卡斯特尔博士进行讨论。
Dr. Alan Castel, welcome.
艾伦·卡斯特尔博士，欢迎光临。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Nice to be here.
很高兴来到这里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're going to tell us how to build up and keep our memory.
你将告诉我们如何建立和保持我们的记忆。
But let's start by asking, what is memory, or rather, how do you conceptualize memory?
但让我们首先问，什么是记忆，或者更确切地说，你如何概念化记忆？
From the standpoint of we move through life, we experience things, let's call it passively, or we try to remember certain things.
从我们生活的角度来看，我们经历一些事情，我们称之为被动的，或者我们试图记住某些事情。
What determines what information we hold on to, how long, and so on?
是什么决定了我们保留哪些信息、保留多长时间等等？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
It's a great question, and memory is really a mental representation of the past, and by its very nature, it's reconstructive.
这是一个很好的问题，记忆实际上是过去的心理表征，就其本质而言，它是可重构的。
It's never always accurate, and I think that's why it's so mysterious and fascinating that you and I can see the same event and then remember it differently a week or a day later.
它并不总是准确的，我认为这就是为什么它如此神秘和迷人，以至于你和我可以看到相同的事件，然后在一周或一天后以不同的方式记住它。
And it starts kind of almost at the sensory level, and sometimes our mind plays tricks on us, and that's how I got interested in this field.
它几乎从感官层面开始，有时我们的大脑会欺骗我们，这就是我对这个领域感兴趣的原因。
That how can I think I know something and yet not know it as well as I do?
那我怎么能认为我知道某件事，但实际上却并不了解它呢？
And this is something that's called metacognition, our awareness of our own cognition.
这就是所谓的元认知，即我们对自己认知的认识。
And as a personal anecdote, when I was in fifth or sixth grade, I had one line in the play "The Wizard of Oz." It's a line I practiced again and again.
作为我个人的轶事，当我上五年级或六年级时，我在戏剧《绿野仙踪》中有一句台词。这是我反复练习的台词。
"Listen, everyone, there's a cyclone on the way.
“大家听着，飓风正在路上。
Hurry and get into the cellar." And of course, on opening night, "Listen, everyone, there's a cellar on the way.
赶紧进地窖去吧。”当然，在开幕之夜，“大家听着，路上有一个地窖。
Hurry and get into the cyclone."
快点进入旋风之中吧。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Nice.
不错。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And I was thinking, how did I manage that, having memorized this line?
我在想，记住这句话后，我是如何做到这一点的呢？
Most of the audience probably didn't even notice.
大多数观众可能都没有注意到。
But that, to me, was an early exposure to memory is not always kind of a function of what you do with the information.
但对我来说，早期接触记忆并不总是取决于你如何处理信息。
And then, in high school, I had another exposure to memory where I just memorized a lot of things, and that got me pretty far in algebra and chemistry.
然后，在高中时，我再次接触到记忆，我记住了很多东西，这让我在代数和化学方面取得了很大的进步。
In fact, I almost memorized the entire periodic table.
事实上，我几乎记住了整个元素周期表。
But this was using mnemonics, little rhymes or songs.
但这是使用助记符、小韵律或歌曲。
And I realized in my first year of college that I really didn't have a strong understanding of chemistry, even though I could use all these terms.
我在大学第一年意识到，尽管我可以使用所有这些术语，但我对化学确实没有很强的理解。
And thankfully, I took an introductory psychology class, and I realized people studied learning and memory and kind of false memories and why memory can and cannot be accurate, and I was hooked.
值得庆幸的是，我参加了心理学入门课程，我意识到人们研究学习和记忆以及虚假记忆以及为什么记忆可以或不可以准确，我被迷住了。
I found that so fascinating, and I still do today.
我发现这非常令人着迷，直到今天我仍然如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm both impressed and intrigued to ask more about memorization of the periodic table.
我既印象深刻又好奇，想询问更多关于元素周期表的记忆的问题。
First question is about mnemonics and ways that we try and batch and learn information by pairing it to other things.
第一个问题是关于助记符以及我们尝试通过将信息与其他事物配对来批处理和学习信息的方法。
Trying to remember a room full of people's names, and you could pair the first letter of their name with a fruit or what.
试图记住一个满屋子的人的名字，你可以将他们名字的第一个字母与水果或其他东西配对。
People do these things.
人们做这些事情。
To me, that seems like a very inefficient way to learn because you're adding more information that you need to store away.
对我来说，这似乎是一种非常低效的学习方式，因为您添加了更多需要存储的信息。
So the first question is, is that the best way to learn large batches of information?
所以第一个问题是，这是学习大量信息的最佳方法吗？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
I think it's almost a workaround, and that's the first kind of problem people say is, "I can't remember names." And by their nature, names used to be descriptive of a person's occupation.
我认为这几乎是一种解决方法，人们说的第一类问题是“我记不住名字了”。就其本质而言，名字过去常常用来描述一个人的职业。
Someone's a baker, we call them Mr. Baker.
有人是面包师，我们称他们为贝克先生。
But that's, of course, evolved with time.
但这当然是随着时间的推移而演变的。
And names, I tell people, if you can't remember someone's name, that's probably a natural forgetting, but you remember if you had an interesting conversation, or you remember if you can trust them.
至于名字，我告诉人们，如果你记不起某人的名字，那可能是自然遗忘，但你会记得是否有过一次有趣的谈话，或者你记得是否可以信任他们。
That's probably more important.
这可能更重要。
So then to engage our kind of knowledge base so that we can remember names, we need to make this arbitrary link.
因此，为了利用我们的知识库以便我们能够记住名字，我们需要建立这个任意链接。
And so I tell people my last name is Pastel, Castel.
所以我告诉人们我的姓是 Pastel，Castel。
Castel rhymes with Pastel, and my grandfather used pastels, let's say.
Castel 与 Pastel 押韵，比方说，我的祖父也用过 Pastel。
And so people can then make this link.
这样人们就可以建立这个链接。
But like you say, that's effortful.
但就像你说的，这很费力。
It takes time.
这需要时间。
It takes time away from the essence of something else we could talk about.
这会占用我们一些时间来讨论我们可以谈论的其他事情的本质。
And it also leads to these predictable memory errors.
它还会导致这些可预测的记忆错误。
So people say, "Oh, I remember his name was Pastel," when in fact it's Castel.
所以人们会说，“哦，我记得他的名字叫帕斯特”，而事实上它是卡斯特尔。
So I think we have to almost trick our memory into remembering things that might be somewhat arbitrary, and that becomes more pronounced as we get older.
所以我认为我们几乎必须欺骗我们的记忆来记住一些可能有些随意的事情，而且随着年龄的增长，这种情况会变得更加明显。
There's more Davids, there's more Andrews, and it's just more interference.
有更多的戴维斯，有更多的安德鲁斯，只是更多的干扰。
And so to get around that, we have to use deliberate practice, retrieval practice, use the name several times.
因此，为了解决这个问题，我们必须进行刻意练习、检索练习，多次使用这个名字。
But I tell my students, whose names I often forget but I'll still remember topics we've talked about or, how they felt about something, and I think that's more important than sometimes just remembering a name.
但我告诉我的学生，我经常忘记他们的名字，但我仍然会记得我们谈论过的话题，或者他们对某件事的感受，我认为这比有时只记住一个名字更重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
To remember chemistry or some other subject that involves nomenclature and not everyday terms, unless you're a chemist, but to really understand the deeper mechanics of that thing and remember that, what are some better tools?
要记住化学或其他涉及术语而不是日常术语的学科，除非您是化学家，但要真正理解该事物的更深层机制并记住这一点，有哪些更好的工具？
I want to say, and I'm not a memory researcher, that it might be helpful to think in terms of verbs, not labels.
我想说，我不是记忆研究者，从动词而不是标签的角度思考可能会有所帮助。
So rather than thinking about a particular element just in terms of its name, but think about how it interacts with something else, or how it gives or receives a charge in certain conditions.
因此，不要仅仅根据名称来考虑特定元素，而是要考虑它如何与其他元素相互作用，或者在某些条件下它如何给出或接收电荷。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
I think that's what you're looking for is deeper learning, deeper semantic learning.
我认为这就是你正在寻找的更深层次的学习，更深层次的语义学习。
And this has been referred to as levels of processing.
这被称为处理级别。
So I was working at a very low level of processing when I'm making up Happy Henry for hydrogen and helium.
因此，当我为氢和氦制作快乐亨利时，我的处理水平非常低。
But if you can start to visualize things or interact with them, and that's why we want to have chemistry labs or places where-- I found chemistry very abstract.
但如果你能开始想象事物或与它们互动，这就是为什么我们想要有化学实验室或地方——我发现化学非常抽象。
I think that's why I didn't really engage with it.
我想这就是为什么我没有真正参与其中。
But I found psychology to be something that we were interacting with every day.
但我发现心理学是我们每天都会接触到的东西。
I was making these memory errors.
我犯了这些记忆错误。
I saw my parents and grandparents remembering and forgetting things, and I thought, "How does that happen?" And the brain is so complex that I don't think we'll ever completely understand why this memory error might happen.
我看到我的父母和祖父母记住和忘记事情，我想：“这是怎么发生的？”大脑是如此复杂，我认为我们永远无法完全理解为什么会发生这种记忆错误。
But I think this awareness is really important.
但我认为这种意识非常重要。
And a lot of good learning happens through making mistakes.
许多好的学习都是通过犯错误来实现的。
I play piano and I struggle, but I know when I make a mistake, I'm going to have to work on this.
我弹钢琴，我很挣扎，但我知道当我犯错时，我必须改正。
And I see that with my children.
我在我的孩子身上也看到了这一点。
You learn a lot by making these mistakes.
通过犯这些错误你可以学到很多东西。
And I think that illustrates also how our memory works, that just seeing something many times doesn't mean you'll remember it well.
我认为这也说明了我们的记忆是如何运作的，仅仅多次看到某件事并不意味着你会记得很好。
And this is a classic demonstration that you've seen a penny many times, and you don't remember all the features on the penny.
这是一个经典的演示，你已经多次见过一分钱，但你不记得一分钱上的所有特征。
I've updated that to the Apple logo.
我已将其更新为 Apple 徽标。
You've seen the Apple logo so many times, of course, you know all the features.
您已经多次看到 Apple 徽标，当然，您也了解所有功能。
But then when you quiz people and test them, and I do this in my class, people aren't sure.
但当你对人们进行测验并测试他们时，我在课堂上这样做，人们就不确定了。
Is the bite on the left or the right-hand side?
咬伤是在左边还是右边？
Is there a stem or a leaf?
有茎或叶吗？
But if you make people draw it while they're looking at it, they're going to remember it better.
但如果你让人们一边看一边把它画下来，他们就会更好地记住它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
While they're looking at the actual logo?
当他们查看实际徽标时？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
While they're looking at it, or actually the best way to remember something is to, again, failures.
当他们看着它时，或者实际上记住某件事的最好方法就是再次失败。
I'll have you draw it without looking at it, and you struggle, and wait, is it on the left or right?
我让你看都不看就画出来，你挣扎着，等等，是在左边还是在右边？
And is it a stem or a leaf?
它是茎还是叶？
And you're starting to question all of these things.
你开始质疑所有这些事情。
Then when you look at the logo again, you're going to engage in better learning than if you hadn't done that error-full trial beforehand.
然后，当您再次查看徽标时，您将比之前没有进行完全错误的尝试进行更好的学习。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Even if you don't redraw it correctly?
即使你没有正确地重新绘制它？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Yeah.
是的。
So this sort of thing is in an academic setting, we don't want failure.
所以这种事情是在学术环境中发生的，我们不希望失败。
We want people to do well.
我们希望人们做得好。
But I think this sort of retrieval failure with some corrective feedback is really beneficial.
但我认为这种带有一些纠正反馈的检索失败确实是有益的。
And that's kind of how you learn through life.
这就是你在生活中学习的方式。
You make mistakes, and then you correct them.
你犯错误，然后纠正它们。
But if you're constantly just doing it the right way, you're not really noticing these features.
但如果您一直以正确的方式进行操作，您就不会真正注意到这些功能。
And we've tried to extend this to other domains.
我们尝试将其扩展到其他领域。
It's called habituation.
这就是所谓的习惯。
You stop noticing things around you, like where the nearest fire extinguisher is, let's say.
您不再注意到周围的事物，例如最近的灭火器在哪里。
And I guarantee you, hopefully, there's one somewhere nearby, and you've probably walked by it many times, but you stop noticing it.
我向你保证，希望附近某个地方有一个，你可能已经走过它很多次了，但你不再注意到它。
And it's only until you'll need it you'll realize, wait, where is it?
只有当你需要它时，你才会意识到，等等，它在哪里？
And so we've done this study where instead of me telling you where it is, you have to get up and find it.
所以我们做了这项研究，不是我告诉你它在哪里，而是你必须站起来找到它。
And so now you're engaging with the environment.
所以现在你正在与环境接触。
You're going to go look for it and be like, "Gosh, it's been there the whole time.
你会去寻找它，然后说：“天哪，它一直都在那里。
I've walked by it so many times.
我已经走过它很多次了。
I've never noticed it." And I think that's the difference between seeing something and noticing it.
我从来没有注意到这一点。”我认为这就是看到某事和注意到它之间的区别。
So as someone who studies vision, we know a lot of information reaches the retina, but then how much of it reaches our more conscious level?
因此，作为研究视觉的人，我们知道很多信息到达视网膜，但其中有多少信息到达我们更有意识的水平呢？
And not all of it does, and I think that's what makes psychology interesting.
但并非所有的事情都是如此，我认为这就是心理学的有趣之处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In today's financial landscape of constant market shifts and chaotic news, it's easy to feel uncertain about how to save and invest your money.
在当今市场不断变化、新闻混乱的金融环境中，人们很容易对如何储蓄和投资感到不确定。
Wealthfront is the solution that helps you take control of your money while managing risk.
Wealthfront 是帮助您在管理风险的同时掌控资金的解决方案。
For nearly a decade, I've trusted Wealthfront to navigate this volatility.
近十年来，我一直相信 Wealthfront 能够应对这种波动。
With the Wealthfront Cash Account, I can earn 3.3% annual percentage yield, or APY, on my cash from program banks.
通过 Wealthfront 现金账户，我可以从计划银行获得 3.3% 的现金年收益率 (APY)。
And I know my money is growing until I'm ready to spend it or invest it.
我知道我的钱会不断增长，直到我准备好花钱或投资为止。
One of the features I love about Wealthfront is that I have access to instant, no-fee withdrawals to eligible accounts 24/7.
我喜欢 Wealthfront 的功能之一是我可以 24/7 即时、免费提款到符合条件的账户。
That means I can move my money where I need it without waiting.
这意味着我可以将资金转移到需要的地方，而无需等待。
And when I'm ready to transition from saving to investing, Wealthfront lets me seamlessly transfer my funds into one of their expert-built portfolios.
当我准备好从储蓄过渡到投资时，Wealthfront 可以让我无缝地将资金转移到他们专家构建的投资组合之一。
For a limited time, Wealthfront is offering the Huberman Lab audience an exclusive 0.75% APY boost over the base rate for three months, meaning you can get up to 4.05% variable APY on up to $150,000 in deposits.
在有限的时间内，Wealthfront 为 Huberman Lab 受众提供为期三个月的独家年利率比基本利率高 0.75% 的优惠，这意味着您最多可在 150,000 美元的存款中获得高达 4.05% 的可变年利率。
Over one million people already trust Wealthfront to save more, earn more, and build long-term wealth with confidence.
超过一百万人已经相信 Wealthfront 能够充满信心地储蓄更多、赚取更多并建立长期财富。
If you'd like to try Wealthfront, you can go to wealthfront.com/huberman to receive the boost offer and start earning 4.05% variable APY today.
如果您想尝试Wealthfront，您可以访问wealthfront.com/huberman 获取提升优惠，并立即开始赚取4.05% 的可变年利率。
That's wealthfront.com/huberman to get started.
请从 Fortunefront.com/huberman 开始。
This is a paid testimonial of Wealthfront.
这是 Wealthfront 的付费推荐。
Client experiences will vary.
客户体验会有所不同。
Wealthfront brokerage is not a bank.
Wealthfront 经纪公司不是银行。
The base APY is as of January 30th, 2026, and subject to change.
基本 APY 截至 2026 年 1 月 30 日，可能会发生变化。
For more information, please see the episode description.
欲了解更多信息，请参阅剧集描述。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Helix Sleep.
今天的节目也是由 Helix Sleep 为我们带来的。
Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep needs.
Helix Sleep 生产根据您独特的睡眠需求定制的床垫和枕头。
Now, I've spoken many times before on this and on other podcasts about the fact that getting a great night's sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance.
现在，我之前曾多次在这个播客和其他播客上谈到这样一个事实：睡个好觉是心理健康、身体健康和表现的基础。
When we aren't getting great sleep on a consistent basis, everything suffers, and when we are sleeping well and enough, our mental health, physical health, and performance in all endeavors improve markedly.
当我们不能持续获得良好的睡眠时，一切都会受到影响，而当我们睡眠良好且充足时，我们的心理健康、身体健康和所有努力的表现都会显着改善。
Now, the mattress you sleep on makes a huge difference in the quality of sleep that you get each night.
现在，您所睡的床垫会对您每晚的睡眠质量产生巨大影响。
How soft it is or how firm it is all play into your comfort and need to be tailored to your unique sleep needs.
它的柔软度或硬度都会影响您的舒适度，并且需要根据您独特的睡眠需求进行定制。
If you go to the Helix website, you can take a brief two-minute quiz, and it will ask you questions such as, do you sleep on your back, your side, or your stomach?
如果你访问 Helix 网站，你可以做一个两分钟的简短测验，它会问你一些问题，比如你是仰卧、侧卧还是俯卧？
Maybe you know, maybe you don't.
也许你知道，也许你不知道。
Do you tend to run hot or cold during the night?
你晚上容易感到热还是冷？
Things of that sort.
诸如此类的事情。
You answer those questions, and Helix will match you to the ideal mattress for you.
您回答这些问题，Helix 将为您匹配理想的床垫。
For me, that turned out to be the Dusk, D-U-S-K, mattress.
对我来说，这就是 Dusk、D-U-S-K 床垫。
I've been sleeping on a Dusk mattress for more than four years now, and it's been far and away the best sleep that I've ever had.
我已经在 Dusk 床垫上睡了四年多了，这无疑是我睡过的最好的睡眠。
If you'd like to try Helix, you can go to helixsleep.com/huberman, take that two-minute sleep quiz, and Helix will match you to a mattress that's customized for you.
如果您想尝试 Helix，可以访问 helixsleep.com/huberman，参加两分钟的睡眠测验，Helix 将为您匹配专为您定制的床垫。
Right now, Helix is giving up to 27% off their entire site.
目前，Helix 整个网站提供高达 27% 的折扣。
Helix has also teamed up with TrueMed, which allows you to use your HSA, FSA dollars to shop Helix's award-winning mattresses.
Helix 还与 TrueMed 合作，允许您使用 HSA、FSA 美元购买 Helix 屡获殊荣的床垫。
Again, that's helixsleep.com/huberman to get up to 27% off.
再次强调，helixsleep.com/huberman 提供高达 27% 的折扣。
The big revelation for me when learning about neuroplasticity, and it was such an obvious one once I heard it, was that if you can perform a mental or physical task, there's no reason for your brain to change.
当我学习神经可塑性时，对我来说最大的启示是，如果你能够执行一项精神或身体任务，你的大脑就没有理由改变，一旦我听到它，它就非常明显。
You clearly already have the circuit.
显然你已经有了电路。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's the gap between desired performance and current performance that actually triggers the opportunity for plasticity.
因此，理想绩效与当前绩效之间的差距实际上触发了可塑性的机会。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah, and those can be uncomfortable positions, right?
是的，这些姿势可能会让人不舒服，对吧？
Where it's like, I don't know this.
好像在哪里，我不知道这个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Am I going to be able to learn it?
我能学会吗？
And I think that's this metacognitive aspect of-
我认为这就是元认知方面——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
...
...
when are you aware of that?
你什么时候意识到这一点的？
And a lot of learning now is unsupervised learning.
而现在很多学习都是无监督学习。
It's not that you're going in classrooms and teachers are telling you what to do.
这并不是说你走进教室，老师告诉你该怎么做。
You want to learn a new instrument, you might do a lot of it on YouTube, right?
如果您想学习一种新乐器，您可能会在 YouTube 上进行很多练习，对吧？
You're going to try and figure it out.
你要尝试找出答案。
You want to learn a new language.
您想学习一门新语言。
You want to learn how to communicate with people.
您想学习如何与人沟通。
There's going to be a lot of trial and error, and I think kind of the best learners are the ones who persist, who are curious, because that's how you're going to get a lot of feedback.
将会有很多尝试和错误，我认为最好的学习者是那些坚持不懈、充满好奇的人，因为这样你才能得到很多反馈。
Asking not just lots of questions, but the right questions.
不仅要问很多问题，还要问正确的问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, and I think that frustration and agitation, I do believe that's the release of catecholamines, epinephrine, norepinephrine, and those change the milieu around synapses and let them change.
是的，我认为沮丧和激动，我确实相信那是儿茶酚胺、肾上腺素、去甲肾上腺素的释放，这些物质改变了突触周围的环境，让它们发生变化。
All the things that-
所有的事情——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
we want to avoid.
我们想避免。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All the things that actually allow us to learn.
所有真正让我们学习的东西。
It could be that people that are very good at learning and have this willingness to embrace so-called beginner's mind, like-
那些非常善于学习并且愿意拥抱所谓初学者心态的人可能会这样——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
okay, they're excellent in one domain, and they're perfectly happy to be a raw beginner in a different domain.
好吧，他们在一个领域非常出色，并且他们非常高兴成为另一个领域的初学者。
I always wonder if they experience agitation the same way that anyone else would, but that they don't have the same relationship to it.
我总是想知道他们是否会像其他人一样经历焦虑，但他们与焦虑的关系却不同。
Like, oh-
就像，哦-
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
here's that autonomic arousal again, here it is.
自主神经又被唤醒了，就在这里。
And maybe they don't conceptualize it as frustration.
也许他们并没有将其视为挫败感。
So in terms of-
所以就而言——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
getting better at learning and remembering things- ...
更好地学习和记住事物 - ...
have you or any other laboratories parsed kind of people's framework around it?
您或任何其他实验室是否解析过人们围绕它的框架？
I know there's a vast literature around growth mindset, but-
我知道有大量关于成长心态的文献，但是——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I'm thinking more in terms of how people think about their own levels of frustration.
我更多地考虑人们如何看待自己的挫败程度。
Because if you go, "Oh, here I am, frustrated again."
因为如果你说，“哦，我在这里，又沮丧了。”
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"Awesome.
“太棒了。
Let's go."
我们走吧。”
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"Now's the opportunity," versus, "Ugh, I'm terrible at this.
“现在是机会”，而不是“呃，我在这方面很糟糕。
I know I should push through." I just wonder whether or not mindset can actually make a difference.
我知道我应该挺过去。”我只是想知道心态是否真的能带来改变。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
I think it can.
我认为可以。
I think our goals can play a big role.
我认为我们的目标可以发挥重要作用。
A lot of the learning we do is sometimes learning to take a test or learning something because it'll be on a test.
我们所做的很多学习有时是学习参加考试或因为考试而学习一些东西。
But as we get through life, we realize if you're interested in bird watching or music or skateboarding, a lot of this is going to be observational learning.
但随着我们的生活，我们意识到，如果你对观鸟、音乐或滑板感兴趣，其中很多都将是观察性学习。
It's going to be talking to other people.
它将与其他人交谈。
So I think it comes down to curiosity, which is almost closing this knowledge gap where here I am, but I want to be here.
所以我认为这可以归结为好奇心，这几乎弥合了我在这里的知识差距，但我想留在这里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
How can I get from here to here?
我怎样才能从这里到达这里？
And some of it is there's a strong motivation there, and that's something we've started to study with older adults as well because we know memory declines happen with age, but not all things change equally.
其中一些是有强烈的动机，这也是我们开始对老年人进行研究的东西，因为我们知道记忆力会随着年龄的增长而下降，但并非所有事情都会发生同样的变化。
And in fact, there are certain memory systems that might actually remain stable or even improve, and I think some of the keys here are curiosity, being interested in listening to a podcast, talking to someone else, closing that knowledge gap, and then kind of extending that and going further.
事实上，某些记忆系统实际上可能保持稳定甚至改进，我认为这里的一些关键是好奇心，对听播客感兴趣，与其他人交谈，缩小知识差距，然后扩展并进一步发展。
And I sometimes find there's topics that I'm not so interested in, but then there's some that I will almost become obsessive about, that it's like, I'm going to watch that YouTube video and the next one and the next one-
有时我会发现有些话题我不太感兴趣，但有些话题我几乎会着迷，就像，我要观看 YouTube 视频以及下一个和下一个 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
...
...
and then it's 45 minutes later.
45分钟后。
And I think that can be kind of a waste of time in some ways, but it shows that our brain is craving this information, and that's something that I'm really curious about how that will change as we get older.
我认为这在某些方面可能是浪费时间，但这表明我们的大脑渴望这些信息，这就是我真的很好奇随着我们年龄的增长，这种情况会如何改变。
And some of our research suggests that as we get older, we're more selective about what we focus on, and I think that can be beneficial.
我们的一些研究表明，随着年龄的增长，我们对自己关注的事情会更有选择性，我认为这可能是有益的。
So maybe you don't waste as much time on trying to learn everything, but you're more focused on the things you want to learn about.
因此，也许您不会浪费太多时间尝试学习所有内容，但您会更专注于您想学习的内容。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do we know that it's important to continue to seek out new information as we get older in order to maintain our memory, or is it sufficient to just make some effort to remember the past, what we need to do to get through our day?
我们是否知道，随着年龄的增长，为了保持记忆力，继续寻找新的信息很重要，或者仅仅努力记住过去，我们需要做什么来度过这一天就足够了？
I think this gets down to this question people think, I really should be striving to keep my memory.
我认为这归结为人们认为的这个问题，我真的应该努力保留我的记忆。
Everyone wants to keep their memory.
每个人都想保留自己的记忆。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
That makes sense.
这是有道理的。
But how hard should people push to learn new information as opposed to maintaining what they've got?
但是人们应该多努力地学习新信息而不是维持现有信息呢？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
It's a great question.
这是一个很好的问题。
I think it's a little bit of both, and you want to have that sort of balance.
我认为两者兼而有之，你想要达到这种平衡。
So if you play piano, my father in his 80s and 90s still plays piano.
所以如果你弹钢琴的话，我80、90多岁的父亲还在弹钢琴。
I don't think he's learning new pieces, but he's strengthening the pieces he knows, and that keeps him sharp.
我不认为他正在学习新的作品，但他正在加强他所知道的作品，这让他保持敏锐。
On the other hand, being exposed to new things, if you're traveling, if you're talking to different people, that can be really important for things like even neurogenesis.
另一方面，接触新事物，如果你在旅行，如果你与不同的人交谈，这对于神经发生等事情来说非常重要。
You want to develop new brain cells, which we know doesn't just stop as we reach a certain age.
你想要开发新的脑细胞，我们知道，新的脑细胞不会随着我们达到一定年龄而停止。
So it's probably a bit of both.
所以可能两者兼而有之。
And people ask me, "What's the best thing to keep my brain sharp?" Is it crossword puzzles?
人们问我：“让我的大脑保持敏锐的最好方法是什么？”是填字游戏吗？
And that's interesting because I think as we get older, our actual verbal knowledge is maintained, if not improved.
这很有趣，因为我认为随着年龄的增长，我们实际的语言知识即使没有得到改善，也能得到维持。
So in a way, you're strengthening a strength, and I think that can be beneficial, but probably the other things to do are do new things.
因此，在某种程度上，你正在增强自己的优势，我认为这可能是有益的，但其他要做的事情可能就是做新的事情。
Go outside and appreciate the birds, or talk to someone who has a different perspective, or you go to a different restaurant, even.
出去欣赏鸟类，或者与有不同观点的人交谈，或者甚至去不同的餐厅。
All of these things I find, as I get older, that I have a lot of routines.
所有这些事情我发现，随着年龄的增长，我有很多例行公事。
But it's when I start to violate these routines, take a different way to work, or try something different at a restaurant, I can almost feel like, wow, that was a different experience today.
但当我开始违反这些惯例，采取不同的工作方式，或者在餐厅尝试不同的东西时，我几乎可以感觉到，哇，今天这是一种不同的体验。
I did something else.
我做了别的事。
And I think both are really important.
我认为两者都非常重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We do get set in our ways.
我们确实按自己的方式行事。
That's a real thing.
这是真实的事情。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Habits can be healthy, and we can talk more about that because those routines, I drove this way and I didn't get into a car accident.
习惯可以是健康的，我们可以更多地谈论这一点，因为这些习惯，我就是这样开车的，而且我没有遇到车祸。
Or I even notice my students in my classes, after the first couple of weeks, they all sit in the same seats.
或者我什至注意到我班上的学生，在最初的几周后，他们都坐在同一个座位上。
I'm always like, "Why is that?" And it's like, well, I didn't get attacked by a snake here, so it's safe.
我总是想，“这是为什么？”就好像，嗯，我在这里没有被蛇袭击，所以很安全。
Maybe evolutionarily it makes sense.
也许从进化的角度来说这是有道理的。
But I'll sometimes, halfway through the quarter, say, "Okay, I want everyone to get up and switch sides and sit somewhere else." And students are like, "This is terrible.
但有时我会在季度进行到一半时说：“好吧，我希望每个人都站起来，换边坐在其他地方。”学生们会说：“这太糟糕了。
I have to move." But there are some benefits to having a different perspective, both physically and possibly mentally, that you're going to then remember things differently.
我得走了。”但拥有不同的视角有一些好处，无论是在身体上还是在精神上，你都会以不同的方式记住事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And I know if I've taken a class in a different classroom every year, I can almost revisit each of those rooms and try and recall what I learned.
我知道，如果我每年在不同的教室上课，我几乎可以重新访问每个房间并尝试回忆我学到的东西。
But if you learn all in the same spot, there's a lot of interference.
但如果你在同一个地方学习所有内容，就会出现很多干扰。
So I think there can be benefits to changing our habits.
所以我认为改变我们的习惯是有好处的。
But it can be uncomfortable, especially at first.
但这可能会让人感到不舒服，尤其是一开始。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I went to a lot of scientific meetings early in my career, and I would change seats after every break.
在我职业生涯的早期，我参加了很多科学会议，每次休息后我都会换座位。
It was the only way I could-
这是我唯一能做到的方法——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
stay awake through all the talks.
在所有的谈话中保持清醒。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some talks would naturally keep me awake, and some just wouldn't.
有些谈话自然会让我保持清醒，有些则不会。
They don't tell you this, but there are a lot of great talks at meetings, and there are often a lot of boring ones, too.
他们不会告诉你这一点，但会议上有很多精彩的演讲，但也常常有很多无聊的演讲。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Sure.
当然。
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you feel obligated to stay.
你觉得有义务留下来。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Later in my career, I gave myself permission to get up and-
在我职业生涯的后期，我允许自己站起来——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
take a walk, but-
散步，但是——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
so I do think that one learns differently, even if you just change the novelty of-
所以我确实认为人们的学习方式会有所不同，即使你只是改变了——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
seat position.
座位位置。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
And I think that's a great example of, as you've gotten older and more experienced, first of all, you give yourself the leeway like, hey, I can get up if this isn't working for me, or I want to see something else.
我认为这是一个很好的例子，随着你年龄的增长和经验的增加，首先，你给自己留有余地，比如，嘿，如果这对我不起作用，或者我想看看其他东西，我可以站起来。
But I've also learned I learn better if I sit over here, and then over here.
但我也了解到，如果我坐到这里，然后再坐到这里，我会学得更好。
Those are some principles of memory that I think when you have this metacognitive insight, you can use it effectively.
我认为，这些是记忆的一些原则，当你拥有这种元认知洞察力时，你就可以有效地使用它。
And I've learned and I've seen my children learn, sometimes through mistakes or sometimes this works better for me.
我已经学会了，我也看到我的孩子们在学习，有时是通过错误，有时这对我来说更有效。
And I think that's fascinating that we can do that.
我认为我们能做到这一点真是令人着迷。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It is interesting that almost everybody has an experience of a gaffe, like saying something stupid or- ...
有趣的是，几乎每个人都有过失态的经历，比如说了一些蠢话或者——……
getting the wrong answer publicly, and the shame and the arousal that comes with that means, A, we're never going to forget the right answer, but we tend to remember the experience of embarrassment more-
公开得到错误答案，以及随之而来的羞耻和兴奋意味着，A，我们永远不会忘记正确的答案，但我们倾向于更多地记住尴尬的经历——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
than the, it sort of swamps the information- ...
比，它有点淹没了信息-......
somehow.
不知何故。
And it just raises this question for me, is there a slight to severe emotional tag on every memory we have?
这只是向我提出了这个问题，我们的每一段记忆中是否都带有轻微到严重的情感标签？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
I think part of our brain, like the amygdala, that's involved in processing emotions is very active and is maintained throughout age.
我认为我们大脑中负责处理情绪的部分，比如杏仁核，非常活跃，并且会随着年龄的增长而保持活跃。
Its other parts of the brain tend to decline.
大脑的其他部分往往会衰退。
So I think you're right that there can be an emotional attachment to a lot of our memories.
所以我认为你是对的，我们的很多记忆都可能存在情感依恋。
Some of them are bittersweet.
其中一些是苦乐参半的。
Some of them are things we go back to for comfort.
其中一些是我们为了安慰而回顾的事情。
Sometimes we even change them a little bit, so they fit the way we might have thought they happened.
有时我们甚至会稍微改变它们，让它们符合我们想象的发生方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think that happens-
我认为这会发生——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And that can be-
那可以是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
writ large.
写得很大。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Sure.
当然。
And that's part of our emotional tuning.
这是我们情绪调整的一部分。
Like what makes-
就像是什么让-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
...
...
us feel good.
我们感觉很好。
Some memories we don't want to revisit.
有些回忆我们不想重温。
Some PTSD, there's a lot of research on how we can try and help people.
对于一些创伤后应激障碍（PTSD），有很多关于我们如何尝试帮助人们的研究。
So I think memory can be tuned that way, and a lot of it can have an emotional valence.
所以我认为记忆可以通过这种方式进行调整，而且很多记忆都可以具有情感效价。
And those are usually the memories that we cherish.
这些通常是我们珍惜的回忆。
They're the ones that we might be afraid of.
他们是我们可能害怕的人。
I still remember, even though I'm not sure I remember it accurately, this "Wizard of Oz." And now when my daughter was in "Wizard of Oz," I was like, oh, this is such a great play.
我仍然记得，尽管我不确定我是否记得准确，这个“绿野仙踪”。现在，当我女儿出演《绿野仙踪》时，我就想，哦，这真是一部很棒的剧。
So I was thinking positively about it, even though at that time-
所以我正在积极地思考这件事，尽管当时——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Of getting the line wrong.
弄错线路。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Of getting the line wrong.
弄错线路。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What do you think happened there?
你认为那里发生了什么？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
I was probably just distracted.
我可能只是心烦意乱。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
You do a lot of these dress rehearsals.
你做了很多这样的彩排。
Clearly I'm not an actor, but you do a lot of these rehearsing and you don't see the audience.
显然我不是演员，但你做了很多这样的排练，但你看不到观众。
You don't appreciate what's going on, especially when you're young.
你不会欣赏正在发生的事情，尤其是当你年轻的时候。
All of a sudden like, oh, there's all these people watching me, and I know what I'm supposed to say, but I kind of...
突然间，哦，所有这些人都在看着我，我知道我应该说什么，但我有点……
I'm not convinced most people even remembered it.
我不相信大多数人还记得它。
I'm not even sure my parents were there.
我什至不确定我的父母是否在那里。
So I think we then think of it as a very strong emotional memory, but it guides us.
所以我认为我们会认为它是一种非常强烈的情感记忆，但它指导着我们。
And to me, that's a lasting memory in a sense, because it kind of forced me to think, how does memory really work?
对我来说，从某种意义上说，这是一个持久的记忆，因为它迫使我思考，记忆到底是如何运作的？
I thought I knew how it worked.
我以为我知道它是如何运作的。
And I see a lot of people studying in ways that aren't always as effective.
我看到很多人的学习方式并不总是那么有效。
We know some of the work, this is colleagues at UCLA who've studied desirable difficulties.
我们知道一些工作，这是加州大学洛杉矶分校的同事，他们研究了理想的困难。
How can you make learning kind of uncomfortable, but that you'll remember things better?
如何才能让学习变得有点不舒服，但又能更好地记住事情呢？
And it goes against a lot of our intuitions.
这违背了我们的很多直觉。
A lot of teachers will want to say, "How can we make learning easier?" And I think that's probably the first problem is you don't want it to be easy.
很多老师会问：“怎样才能让学习变得更容易呢？”我认为这可能是第一个问题是你不希望它变得容易。
You want it to be not a struggle, but a challenge so that you can appreciate just how difficult it is.
你希望它不是一场斗争，而是一场挑战，这样你就能体会到它有多么困难。
So if I learned nothing else from that "Wizard of Oz" is now when I do a presentation or talk to other people, I love to see the room I'm going to be working in-
因此，如果我从《绿野仙踪》中没有学到任何东西，那么当我现在做演示或与其他人交谈时，我喜欢看到我将要工作的房间——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
...
...
or maybe a scientific presentation, maybe you've done this, too.
或者也许是一个科学演示，也许你也做过这个。
The night before you're like, oh, this is the auditorium.
前一天晚上你会说，哦，这是礼堂。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And probably raises your arousal level, but it makes you feel more comfortable than the day of.
可能会提高你的唤醒水平，但它会让你感觉比当天更舒服。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't have a photographic memory.
我没有过目不忘的记忆力。
I wish I did, or maybe I wish I'd-
我希望我这么做了，或者也许我希望我-
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I didn't.
我没有。
But a long time ago, I decided, I was in a really cool circumstance.
但很久以前，我决定，我处于一个非常酷的环境中。
I was on a picnic, it was with my first girlfriend, and I remember thinking like, "Gosh, she's so beautiful."
当时我和我的第一个女朋友去野餐，我记得我当时想，“天哪，她太漂亮了。”
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"I'm just going to take a picture." We were just sitting at this park that's up in the hills behind where I used to live, and I just went and I-
“我只是去拍张照片。”我们就坐在我以前住的地方后面山上的这个公园里，我就去了，然后我-
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Oh
哦
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
decided, okay, like I remember the picture now.
决定了，好吧，就像我现在还记得这张照片一样。
Of course, in my mind now, it's blurry.
当然，现在在我的脑海里，已经很模糊了。
Like I don't remember-
好像我不记得了——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
specific details, but I remember more or less, I think I remember the angle.
具体细节，不过我记得多多少少，我想我记得角度。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was that.
就是这样。
And then like a year and a half ago, I was in Manhattan.
然后大约一年半前，我在曼哈顿。
I was in an Uber, and I just was like, maybe I could just do that for a like a trivial
我当时乘坐 Uber，我当时就想，也许我可以为了一个微不足道的事情而做到这一点
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
street scene.
街景。
So I just like, look, there was one of those scaffolds for construction, and I just decided, yeah, I'll just do that.
所以我只是喜欢，看，有一个用于施工的脚手架，我就决定，是的，我就这样做。
And there was a guy walking by and I'm like, "I wonder if I'll remember it." And I still remember it.
有一个人走过，我想，“我不知道我是否会记得它。”我仍然记得它。
Now, the question I have is-
现在，我的问题是——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
do I actually remember the content of what I saw?
我真的记得我所看到的内容吗？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Besides just they're crude, the scaffold, the guy.
除此之外，他们的脚手架和那家伙都很简陋。
In one case, my girlfriend, we were sitting on this nice big lawn above, there's just this lake there.
在一个例子中，我的女朋友，我们坐在上面这个漂亮的大草坪上，那里只有一个湖。
It's a beautiful spot in Palo Alto.
这是帕洛阿尔托一个美丽的地方。
It's still there.
它还在那里。
Or is what's stamped in my decision to do that, and the sort of conscious collection of it.
或者说是我决定这样做的印记，以及有意识地收集它的方式。
These weren't like big emotionally salient events.
这些不像是重大的、情感上显着的事件。
The difference between these visual memories and other visual memories is that the emotional load wasn't that high.
这些视觉记忆与其他视觉记忆的区别在于，情感负荷没有那么高。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I made the decision to do it.
但我决定这么做。
It was coming from me.
这是我发出来的。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I'm not just trying to remember like, we also went to, well, it was her senior, my junior prom.
所以我不仅仅是想记住，我们还参加了，嗯，那是她的高年级舞会，我的初三舞会。
I remember a few things from that prom, but I don't have a visual picture of the prom.
我记得那次舞会的一些事情，但我没有舞会的视觉图片。
But the prom was also a lot more emotionally laden than anything I've just described.
但舞会的情感也比我刚才描述的任何事情都要沉重得多。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Does that make sense?
这有道理吗？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
It's a fascinating question because I think selection is the important thing here.
这是一个有趣的问题，因为我认为选择在这里很重要。
That you're making a conscious decision like, "This is a special moment.
你正在做出一个有意识的决定，比如“这是一个特殊的时刻。
Can I just take a picture of it?" And the work on visual memory is interesting.
我可以拍张照片吗？”关于视觉记忆的工作很有趣。
We are very visual people, but the research on photographic memory does show that even people who have very strong visual memory will make memory errors.
我们都是视觉记忆力很强的人，但对照相记忆的研究确实表明，即使视觉记忆力很强的人也会犯记忆错误。
So it's not that it's exactly photographic-
所以这并不是说它完全是摄影-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
...
...
but their visual memory is exceptional.
但他们的视觉记忆却异常出色。
I think what's interesting here, and this is something I think is important, is the selection process that you're choosing.
我认为这里有趣的，也是我认为重要的，是你所选择的选择过程。
This is a special moment.
这是一个特殊的时刻。
I'm going to timestamp it and remember it.
我会给它加上时间戳并记住它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
You're not doing anything special other than realizing a lot is going on.
除了意识到发生了很多事情之外，你没有做任何特别的事情。
Now, there's probably some emotional valence there versus taking this random picture in New York City.
现在，与在纽约随意拍摄这张照片相比，这里可能有一些情感价值。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And it would be interesting to kind of test your memory later, because we know sometimes we think we remember something well, and in fact we misremember things or details and hopefully, you got the right girlfriend, of course, but maybe the hill looks a little bit different.
稍后测试你的记忆力会很有趣，因为我们知道有时我们认为自己记得很好，但事实上我们记错了事情或细节，当然，希望你找到了合适的女朋友，但也许山看起来有点不同。
Or sometimes people are like, "Of course, it was spring because we went to the prom." But it's like, no, actually, now that, it was a different season entirely.
或者有时人们会说，“当然，那是春天，因为我们去了舞会。”但这就像，不，实际上，现在，这是一个完全不同的季节。
That was fall.
那是秋天。
I'm confusing it with the other picnic I took.
我把它和我参加的另一次野餐搞混了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
But I think that's important, especially as we get older, that there are some memories.
但我认为这很重要，尤其是当我们变老时，有一些记忆。
These days, we have our phones for everything.
如今，我们有了手机就能搞定一切。
So you probably couldn't then, but you could've pulled out your phone and actually taken a picture.
所以你可能不能，但你可以拿出手机并实际拍照。
And you see a lot of people offloading information now.
现在你会看到很多人在转移信息。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
You know, I'm not going to remember this.
你知道，我不会记住这件事。
I'll take a picture.
我会拍张照片。
There is some research showing that that act of deciding to take the picture actually improves your own memory.
有一些研究表明，决定拍照的行为实际上可以提高你自己的记忆力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For the event.
为了这次活动。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
For the event.
为了这次活动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Now, it can also make your memory worse because you're realizing, I'm taking this photo, so I don't need to remember it later.
现在，它也会让你的记忆力变差，因为你意识到，我正在拍这张照片，所以我以后不需要记住它。
And so you could see it going both ways.
所以你可以看到它是双向的。
But that selection process is important.
但这个选择过程很重要。
So sometimes you're choosing, this is mundane, I'm going to offload it and take a picture.
所以有时你会选择，这很平常，我要把它卸下来拍张照片。
Or this is a special moment, I want to take this picture.
或者这是一个特殊的时刻，我想拍这张照片。
And I see it, when I take pictures of my family, this is a special moment.
我发现，当我为家人拍照时，这是一个特殊的时刻。
I want to take this photo.
我想拍这张照片。
But there are times when I'm like, I don't have my camera.
但有时我会想，我没有相机。
I don't want to interfere.
我不想干涉。
This is going to be like an internal memory that I can take.
这就像我可以带走的内部记忆。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And hopefully it lasts forever.
希望它永远持续下去。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I tell myself that my mindset at the time was, this is a special moment.
我告诉自己，我当时的心态是，这是一个特殊的时刻。
I never want to forget this.
我永远不想忘记这一点。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I hope I never forget it.
我希望我永远不会忘记它。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Well, memory is reconstructive, and I think, the more you retrieve it and go back there, the more you'll have this feeling of remembering it.
嗯，记忆是可重构的，我想，你越多地检索它并回到那里，你就越有这种记住它的感觉。
And our brain does a lot of interesting things in terms of reconstructing the past also has a similar brain signature as imagining the future.
我们的大脑在重建过去方面做了很多有趣的事情，也有与想象未来类似的大脑特征。
Which, in some ways makes sense.
这在某些方面是有道理的。
We shouldn't have separate parts of the brain for thinking about the past and thinking about the future.
我们不应该用大脑的不同部分来思考过去和未来。
But that can kind of then predict why you might misremember something, why your imagination has to be based, surely, on the experiences you've had already.
但这可以预测为什么你可能会记错某些东西，为什么你的想象力必须基于你已经有过的经历。
Right?
正确的？
Or, if I say, what would it be like to go to Mars?
或者，如果我说，去火星会是什么样子？
Well, you've never been to Mars, but you've seen movies in the past about it.
好吧，你从未去过火星，但你过去看过有关火星的电影。
So if I said, "Imagine a space alien," you and I, being similar age, are probably going to think of the ET version of one.
因此，如果我说“想象一个太空外星人”，年龄相仿的你和我可能会想到外星人版本。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Whereas someone who's younger than us might have a very different kind of representation of that.
而比我们年轻的人可能对此有一种非常不同的表述。
So it's interesting to think of memory as kind of a reconstruction of the past, but also imagining the future involves our past experiences.
因此，将记忆视为对过去的重建是很有趣的，但想象未来也涉及我们过去的经历。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Never thought about it that way.
从来没有这样想过。
It's the perfect time, I think, to raise the quote that a former guest on this podcast put on social media the other day.
我认为，现在是引用该播客的一位前嘉宾前几天在社交媒体上发表的言论的最佳时机。
They weren't his words, but this Morgan Housel, who did a really wonderful episode on the psychology of money, and I really love his first book, but also his second book, "The Art of Spending Money." He said it's a Russian quote, "The past is more unpredictable than the future."
这不是他的话，而是摩根·豪塞尔（Morgan Housel），他在金钱心理学方面做了非常精彩的一集，我真的很喜欢他的第一本书，也很喜欢他的第二本书，《花钱的艺术》。他说这是一句俄语，“过去比未来更难以预测。”
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Goodness.
善良。
That raises questions about eyewitness testimony, spousal arguments.
这就引发了有关目击者证词、配偶争论的问题。
I occasionally will get an email, my wife and I have a debate-
我偶尔会收到一封电子邮件，我和我的妻子有一场辩论-
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or my husband and I are debate, and I have a rule.
或者我和老公正在争论，我有一个规矩。
I don't get into spousal- ...
我不结婚-...
debates or arguments of any kind.
任何形式的辩论或争论。
So do we remember things the way they happened, or do we confabulate?
那么，我们会记住事情发生的方式，还是会闲聊？
Do we muck it all up?
我们把这一切都搞砸了吗？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
I don't think we muck it all up, and I don't think we do it intentionally either.
我不认为我们把这一切搞砸了，我也不认为我们是故意这样做的。
But as a result of all the information we have in our memory, we're constantly interpreting the future and our current state.
但由于我们记忆中的所有信息，我们不断地解释未来和当前的状态。
And you spoke a little bit about eyewitness memory.
你谈到了目击者记忆。
I think that's a really good example of that, where something horrible might have happened and like your experience, where you think you're taking a picture and you're going to remember everything, and it feels like you will.
我认为这是一个很好的例子，可能发生了一些可怕的事情，就像你的经历一样，你认为你正在拍一张照片，你会记住一切，而且感觉你会的。
I can remember the shirt, I can remember the smell, I can remember the weather.
我可以记得那件衬衫，我可以记得气味，我可以记得天气。
And sometimes that can be accurate, but a lot of research shows that sometimes we misremember these things.
有时这可能是准确的，但大量研究表明，有时我们会记错这些事情。
In some of these classic cases, unfortunately, now that there's DNA evidence, you can determine that maybe they got the wrong person.
不幸的是，在一些经典案例中，现在有了 DNA 证据，你就可以确定他们抓错人了。
And when that happens, you want to look back and say, "How could that happen?" And some of it comes down to faulty eyewitness identification.
当这种情况发生时，你想回顾并说：“这怎么可能发生？”其中一些归结于错误的目击证人识别。
And these are not cases where people are lying or intentionally changing ...
这些并不是人们撒谎或故意改变的情况......
things, but they'll identify someone.
的东西，但他们会识别某人。
They'll say, "That's the person." And as a result of identifying that person in a lineup, that person then replaces what they actually saw.
他们会说：“就是这个人。”当识别出阵容中的那个人后，那个人就会替换掉他们实际看到的东西。
So our memory can be contaminated just like any form of evidence could be contaminated.
因此，我们的记忆可能会被污染，就像任何形式的证据都可能被污染一样。
And then when you replay it again, you're replaying the person you identified, not the person you actually saw.
然后，当您再次重播时，您重播的是您所识别的人，而不是您实际看到的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
So it's almost like as we become more familiar with this person that we identified, quote unquote, our knowledge about them, facial features, et cetera, is elaborated in our brain, and we superimpose that on the actual experience?
那么，这几乎就像是，当我们对我们所识别的这个人变得更加熟悉时，我们对他们的了解、面部特征等等，都会在我们的大脑中得到详细阐述，然后我们将其叠加在实际体验上？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
And this is one of the most famous cases, Ronald Cotton case, where a really horrible event happened, and the woman made a point of trying to remember her attacker.
这是最著名的案件之一，罗纳德·科顿案，发生了一件非常可怕的事件，这名妇女特意试图记住袭击她的人。
So it wasn't just she got a quick glance, but she had a long interaction with him and a traumatic event, and she said, "If I survive this, I want to remember his face so I can identify him later." So this is the perfect situation where your memory should be sharp.
所以这不仅仅是她匆匆看了一眼，而是她与他进行了长时间的互动以及一次创伤性事件，她说：“如果我幸存下来，我想记住他的脸，这样我以后就能认出他。”所以这是你记忆力应该敏锐的完美情况。
And it was cross-race identification, which we know is not as reliable as identifying someone of your own race.
这是跨种族识别，我们知道这并不像识别自己种族的人那么可靠。
And when she saw a lineup, she identified, she took her time and said, "This feels like it's a multiple choice test, and I studied hard for it." She took her time, and she identified the person, and she thought in her mind, "This is the person who was inches from my throat." And she identified him, and he had an alibi that didn't stand up, and he was then found guilty.
当她看到阵容时，她认出了，她慢慢地说，“这感觉就像是一个选择题测试，我很努力地学习。”她慢慢地认出了这个人，她在心里想：“这就是离我喉咙只有几英寸的人。”她指认了他，而他的不在场证据站不住脚，然后他被判有罪。
And it was only decades later that DNA evidence exonerated him, and she felt horrible.
几十年后，DNA 证据证明他无罪，她感觉很糟糕。
And there's a lot of reasons why this could happen, whether it's leading questions or how the identification process was conducted, but she was trying to do what she felt was her job and take someone who she thought was guilty off the street.
发生这种情况的原因有很多，无论是引导性问题还是身份识别过程是如何进行的，但她正在努力做她认为是她的工作，并将一个她认为有罪的人带离街头。
And later they got to meet, in fact, and she could apologize to him.
事实上，后来他们见面了，她可以向他道歉。
She felt terrible.
她感觉很糟糕。
And so this is one case study, and I wouldn't draw any conclusions, but it had a lot of the principles that we've talked about where you feel like you're taking a photo.
这是一个案例研究，我不会得出任何结论，但它有很多我们已经讨论过的原则，让你感觉自己正在拍照。
It's a cross-race identification where your confidence might be high for a good reason, but accuracy might not be.
这是一种跨种族识别，您的信心可能有充分的理由很高，但准确性可能并不高。
And then this kind of changing of the face, whereas once you identify the face, that's what you start to remember.
然后这种面孔的变化，而一旦你认出了那张面孔，你就开始记住它。
And so I think there's a lot of interesting memory principles at play here.
所以我认为这里有很多有趣的记忆原理在起作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How does the legal system deal with this kind of thing?
法律系统如何处理这种事情？
Nowadays, there are so many more cameras and phones which can track location.
如今，有越来越多的相机和手机可以跟踪位置。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I like to think those things have improved the courtroom scenarios, that it's harder for people to make genuine mistakes.
我认为这些事情改善了法庭场景，人们更难犯真正的错误。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah, I think memory should be treated as one source of evidence, just like DNA, just like any sort of evidence.
是的，我认为记忆应该被视为证据来源之一，就像 DNA 一样，就像任何类型的证据一样。
But also, we need to be aware that it can be contaminated, just like any other source of evidence as well.
但我们也需要意识到它可能会被污染，就像任何其他证据来源一样。
So we can't just say, "Oh, well, DNA evidence is perfect." Well, it can also be contaminated in predictable ways.
所以我们不能只是说，“哦，好吧，DNA 证据是完美的。”嗯，它也可能以可预测的方式受到污染。
And I think, coming back to this idea of metacognition, most people feel like they have a pretty good understanding of how memory works.
我认为，回到元认知这个概念，大多数人都觉得他们对记忆的运作方式有很好的理解。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
But it's not always accurate.
但它并不总是准确的。
And sometimes confidence, high confidence doesn't necessarily mean high accuracy.
而且有时候置信度高，置信度高并不一定意味着准确性高。
And I think part of the reason we're fooled is usually, the more you see something, the better you'll remember it, just like the Apple logo.
我认为我们被愚弄的部分原因通常是，你看到的东西越多，你就越记得它，就像苹果标志一样。
But that's not always the case.
但情况并非总是如此。
And there's predictable reasons why the more you see something, the more you might stop attending to the features, or you don't need to use it.
并且有可预见的原因，为什么您看到的东西越多，您可能就越会停止关注这些功能，或者您不需要使用它。
And so that is a more kind of predictable memory principle.
所以这是一种更可预测的记忆原理。
But we don't have this always accurate metacognitive insight, and I think that's interesting.
但我们并没有这种始终准确的元认知洞察力，我认为这很有趣。
I think that's both concerning in the eyewitness memory case, but it's also important for learning.
我认为这不仅与目击者记忆案例有关，而且对于学习也很重要。
How can we be kind of effective and maximize our learning?
我们如何才能有效并最大化我们的学习？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have a question about what I want to call medium term memory.
我有一个关于中期记忆的问题。
I don't even know if that's a real term.
我什至不知道这是否是一个真正的术语。
Short-term memory, working memory, listeners of this podcast may or may not be familiar, but working memory is like keeping a phone number online in your head or a string of numbers until you need it, and then you may or may not remember it long term.
短期记忆，工作记忆，这个播客的听众可能熟悉也可能不熟悉，但工作记忆就像在你的脑海中保留一个在线电话号码或一串数字，直到你需要它，然后你可能会或可能不会长期记住它。
Long-term memory, obviously, long-term memory.
显然，长期记忆是长期记忆。
But there's this thing that I do.
但我正在做这件事。
Today's a bit of a confessional, so.
今天有点忏悔，所以。
When I check into hotels I always look at the map of how to get out in a fire because once, staying at a hotel in San Francisco for a donor event- ...
当我入住酒店时，我总是会查看如何在火灾中逃生的地图，因为有一次，住在旧金山的一家酒店参加捐赠活动 - ...
the alarm went off in the middle of the night.
半夜闹钟响了。
Everyone, of course, stuck their head out to look to see if anyone was leaving, and everyone was like, "We're not leaving." And then they called everyone's room.
当然，每个人都伸出头看看是否有人要离开，每个人都说：“我们不会离开。”然后他们给每个人的房间打电话。
It was an actual fire, which taught me, when the alarm goes, go.
这是一场真实的火灾，它告诉我，当警报响起时，就走。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it was pretty confusing.
这很令人困惑。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wide hallways.
宽阔的走廊。
Wasn't clear.
不清楚。
Exit sign was not to the actual stairwell.
出口标志并不指向实际的楼梯间。
It was not a good situation, but of course, got out fine.
这不是一个好情况，但当然，一切顺利。
But from now on, before I go to sleep, I go, and I look at the where you are here.
但从现在开始，在我睡觉之前，我会去看你在这里的地方。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I look for the exit.
我寻找出口。
I occasionally walk the hall.
我偶尔会在大厅里走动。
I don't want to be in this situation again, especially in a high-rise.
我不想再遇到这种情况，尤其是在高楼里。
I just do not want to be in a situation where I can't get out of a building that's on fire.
我只是不想陷入无法逃离着火建筑物的境地。
I figure it takes five minutes.
我估计需要五分钟。
People laugh at me, and I do this, but I make a mental map.
人们嘲笑我，我这样做，但我做了一张心理地图。
Okay, so let's assume it's smoky.
好吧，我们假设它是冒烟的。
I do the same.
我也这样做。
Okay, which is the closer door?
好吧，哪扇门更近？
I would go right, then left, right, then left, then right.
我会向右走，然后向左走，向右走，然后向左走，然后向右走。
Okay, so I drill it in my head.
好吧，那我就把它记在脑子里了。
Good.
好的。
Now I go to sleep.
现在我去睡觉了。
I never remember the maps, but it's not working memory.
我从来不记得地图，但这不是工作记忆。
It's not short-term memory.
这不是短期记忆。
I couldn't tell you for the life of me what the last hotel map looked like in my head.
我一辈子都无法告诉你最后一张酒店地图在我脑海中是什么样子。
It had a you are here red dot.
它有一个“你在这里”红点。
It had doors.
它有门。
It had exits.
它有出口。
So it had these component parts, but what term memory is that?
所以它有这些组成部分，但那是什么术语记忆呢？
And thank goodness I don't remember because it's going to change every time I'm in a different hotel.
谢天谢地，我不记得了，因为每次我住在不同的酒店时，它都会改变。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what are the mechanisms that allow for selective forgetting that's healthy?
那么，有哪些机制可以实现健康的选择性遗忘呢？
And also, is medium-term memory an actual thing?
而且，中期记忆是真实存在的吗？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Well, I think when you're saying medium-term, that's your everyday basic memory function where you're like, "I need to remember things, but I don't think I need to remember them that long, but I really need to remember them today or tonight, and it makes me sleep better at night." And I've had a similar experience.
嗯，我认为当你说中期时，这就是你日常的基本记忆功能，你会说，“我需要记住一些事情，但我认为我不需要记住它们那么久，但我今天或今晚确实需要记住它们，这让我晚上睡得更好。”我也有过类似的经历。
I was staying in a hotel with my family and the fire alarm went off, and we're like, "What do we do?" Well, we know we don't take the elevator.
我和家人住在一家酒店，火警警报响了，我们就想，“我们该怎么办？”好吧，我们知道我们不乘电梯。
That's what you're always told.
人们总是这么告诉你。
And I don't think I looked at the map, but I looked down the hall and I swear when I looked down the hall, I saw smoke.
我想我没有看地图，但我朝大厅下方看去，我发誓当我朝大厅下方看时，我看到了烟雾。
And so I'm like, "Let's not go that way." So we went down the other way, we rushed down the stairs, we got outside, and the kids were pretty traumatic.
所以我想，“我们不要走那条路。”所以我们从另一条路走下去，冲下楼梯，跑到外面，孩子们受到了很大的创伤。
And actually, one of our children was like eight stories ahead of us going down the stairs.
事实上，我们的一个孩子在我们前面八层楼的位置下楼。
But what's interesting is I thought I saw smoke, and maybe I didn't have my glasses on, but that's my mind playing tricks on me.
但有趣的是，我以为我看到了烟雾，也许我没有戴眼镜，但那是我的思想在欺骗我。
So maybe that was my concern.
所以也许这就是我关心的问题。
But I think that this everyday memory is really relevant.
但我认为这种日常记忆确实很重要。
And when you're studying that map, you're making notes of like, "Okay, it's close by, it's down the hall.
当你研究那张地图时，你会做笔记，“好吧，它就在附近，就在大厅的下面。
I have to go down here." And that can be very informative and useful for survival.
我必须到这里下去。”这对于生存来说非常有用。
And there's some research saying that that's basically what our brain is tuned towards is surviving.
有一些研究表明，我们的大脑基本上就是为了生存而调整的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Where am I going to eat?
我要去哪里吃饭？
How am I going to sleep?
我要怎么睡觉？
How am I going to-- So when you say everyday memory, I think that's probably the most important thing.
我该怎么办——所以当你说日常记忆时，我认为这可能是最重要的事情。
And part of that memory formation is also then forgetting it and updating it.
然后，记忆形成的一部分就是忘记它并更新它。
It's as simple as you need to know your hotel room number when you're staying there.
就像您入住时需要知道您的酒店房间号码一样简单。
But if I ask you your hotel room number a week later, it's gone.
但如果一周后我再问你酒店的房间号，你的房间号就不见了。
But that's good in a way, because you're going to have other numbers to remember and other hotel room numbers to remember.
但这在某种程度上是件好事，因为您将需要记住其他号码以及其他酒店房间号码。
So there's benefits of forgetting.
所以遗忘是有好处的。
So I think that's an interesting insight.
所以我认为这是一个有趣的见解。
You're doing some processing to remember something, but then you need to update it and forget it.
你正在做一些处理来记住一些东西，但随后你需要更新它并忘记它。
And it's the same thing, I think the best thing you can do in that case is studying the map is one thing, but some people aren't great with maps and where am I in the hotel, is doing that active learning of actually walking the halls of like, "Well, I go down here and there's the elevator, so I can't go there.
这是同样的事情，我认为在这种情况下你能做的最好的事情就是研究地图是一回事，但有些人不擅长地图，而我在酒店的什么地方，就是主动学习实际在大厅里行走，就像，“好吧，我从这里下去，那里有电梯，所以我不能去那里。
Oh, there are the stairs.
哦，还有楼梯。
I'll remember that." And then you can kind of encode it.
我会记住这一点。”然后你可以对其进行编码。
So that sort of active learning is like us with the fire extinguisher.
所以这种主动学习就像我们使用灭火器一样。
We made people get up and find it instead of telling people where it was.
我们让人们站起来找到它，而不是告诉人们它在哪里。
And when you're on a flight, they'll always say, "There's six emergency exits on this plane." And then I think they do the wrong thing.
当你乘坐飞机时，他们总是会说：“这架飞机上有六个紧急出口。”然后我认为他们做错了事。
They tell you where they are.
他们告诉你他们在哪里。
I think the best thing would be to say, "There's six emergency exits on this plane."
我认为最好的办法是说：“这架飞机上有六个紧急出口。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not going to tell you where they are.
我不会告诉你他们在哪里。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Well, I'm not going to say not where they are, but go find them.
好吧，我不会说他们在哪里，但去找他们。
And I notice, maybe it's just myself being anxious, as soon as they say that, I'm looking behind me.
我注意到，也许只是我自己感到焦虑，他们一这么说，我就回头看去。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
I'm making sure I know where they all are.
我确保我知道他们都在哪里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Whereas most people are like, "Oh, they pointed here, here, and here."
而大多数人会说，“哦，他们指的是这里，这里，还有这里。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And I'll even say sometimes the nearest one is behind you.
我什至会说有时最近的人就在你身后。
And I'm like, "Well, I want to see where it is behind me." And so I think that sort of active learning, whether you call it everyday memory, is really important.
我想，“好吧，我想看看它在我身后的位置。”所以我认为这种主动学习，无论你称之为日常记忆，都非常重要。
And I think when we talk about memory, people are like, "I can't remember names." I'm like, "Hmm, that's kind of a common thing."
我认为当我们谈论记忆时，人们会说，“我记不起名字了。”我想，“嗯，这是很常见的事情。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
But you need to sometimes remember what medication are you taking or how did you react the last time you saw this person and those sorts.
但有时你需要记住你正在服用什么药物，或者你上次见到这个人时的反应如何。
I think it's really important to be in tune with what you're calling this kind of everyday average memory.
我认为与这种日常平均记忆保持一致非常重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。
AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens.
AG1 是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮料，还包含益生元和适应原。
I discovered AG1 way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since.
我早在 2012 年就发现了 AG1，那时我还没有播客，从那时起我就每天都在服用它。
The reason I started taking AG1 and the reason I still take it every day is because AG1 is, to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market.
我开始服用 AG1 并仍然每天服用的原因是，据我所知，AG1 是市场上质量最高、最全面的基础营养补充剂。
AG1 is designed to support things like gut health, immune health, and overall energy, and it does so by helping to fill any gaps that you might have in your daily nutrition.
AG1 旨在支持肠道健康、免疫健康和整体能量等方面，它通过帮助填补您日常营养中可能存在的任何缺口来实现这一目标。
I get asked pretty much all the time, if I could only take one supplement, what should that supplement be?
我经常被问到，如果我只能服用一种补充剂，那么该补充剂应该是什么？
And my answer is always AG1.
我的答案始终是AG1。
It has just been so helpful for supporting all aspects of physical health, mental health, and performance.
它对于支持身体健康、心理健康和表现的各个方面都非常有帮助。
If you would like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 以获得特别优惠。
For a limited time, AG1 is giving away a free bottle of their new omega-3 coenzyme Q10 product.
AG1 限时免费赠送一瓶新的 omega-3 辅酶 Q10 产品。
Omega-3 and coenzyme Q10 are known to support cardiovascular health, cellular health, and energy generally, brain health, and much more.
众所周知，Omega-3 和辅酶 Q10 可支持心血管健康、细胞健康、能量、大脑健康等。
I personally take them both every day.
我个人每天都会服用它们。
Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a free bottle of the new omega-3 coenzyme Q10 with your first AG1 subscription.
同样，请访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman，首次订阅 AG1 即可免费获得一瓶新型 omega-3 辅酶 Q10。
Thank you for that, and I'm going to use that as weaponry when I get teased for walking the fire exits.
谢谢你，当我因走过消防出口而被嘲笑时，我会用它作为武器。
But it was in part because the first time people were asking, "Hey, do you know if we should leave?
但这部分是因为人们第一次问：“嘿，你知道我们是否应该离开吗？
Do you know which way to go?" And I realized, okay, next time it might as well be me.
你知道该走哪条路吗？”我意识到，好吧，下次也可能是我。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'll be the guy that knows which way to go.
我将成为那个知道该走哪条路的人。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Certainly for myself, and then I can tell other people which way to go.
当然是为了我自己，然后我可以告诉其他人该走哪条路。
Nobody else here knows where to go, and most likely they're not going to know the next time.
这里没有其他人知道该去哪里，很可能他们下次也不会知道。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I do the thing on the plane, too.
我在飞机上也做这件事。
I think, okay, I should read the thing of how to-
我想，好吧，我应该读一下如何-
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
take it out, because I figure, well, I've experienced how under conditions of very high arousal, you just default to what almost feel like whatever was trained, whatever reflexes you have.
把它拿出来，因为我想，好吧，我经历过在非常高的唤醒条件下，你只是默认了几乎感觉就像是受过训练的东西，无论你有什么反应。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, I had a scuba diving accident years ago, and-
我是说，几年前我发生过一次水肺潜水事故，而且-
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I don't like to say came close to the end, but it was an air failure, and it was a whole mess, and you just default to, yeah, we had to do the whole share air thing.
我不想说已经接近尾声了，但这是一次空气故障，而且一团糟，你只是默认，是的，我们必须做整个共享空气的事情。
It was a precarious situation to begin with.
一开始情况就很不稳定。
And you just default to these routines.
而你只是默认这些例程。
Actually, recently, I watched what I think is a spectacular documentary about Dean Potter.
事实上，最近，我观看了一部关于迪恩·波特的精彩纪录片。
He was a free solo climber, a predecessor to Alex Honnold.
他是一名自由攀登者，是亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）的前辈。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He was kind of the guy to beat, and Honnold passed him up pretty early.
他是那种值得击败的人，霍诺德很早就超越了他。
And he got into wingsuiting and BASE jumping and the whole thing.
他开始学习翼装飞行和定点跳伞等等。
There's a scene where, so be warned if you watch this amazing four-part series, there's a scene where people who are doing BASE jumping in Yosemite are advocating for It being legal in Yosemite, it's illegal.
有一个场景，所以如果你观看这个令人惊叹的四部分系列，请注意，有一个场景，在优胜美地进行定点跳伞的人们提倡在优胜美地这是合法的，这是非法的。
And so there were a bunch of spectators there, and they were doing this big demonstration jump.
所以那里有一群观众，他们正在做这个大型的示范跳跃。
And a woman who was a very seasoned BASE jumper, she didn't want to use her own gear because they were confiscating people's gear at the bottom.
一位经验丰富的定点跳伞运动员，她不想使用自己的装备，因为他们在底部没收了人们的装备。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So she borrowed someone else's gear.
于是她借了别人的装备。
And she jumps, and she's used to pulling from a leg, a leg pull, I guess it is.
她跳了起来，她习惯了用腿拉，我想是这样。
And you just see her the whole way down.
你只能从头到尾看到她。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The whole way down.
一路下来。
And she's got a parachute on.
她还带着降落伞。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And just, not to give it away, but I guess, gave it away that she dies.
只是，不是为了泄露出去，但我想，是泄露了她的死。
But the whole way down, you can see her just doing this routine movement.
但一路下来，你可以看到她只是在做这个例行动作。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And she put on a different pack.
她穿上了不同的包。
She knew that it was a different pull location.
她知道这是一个不同的拉动位置。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So under conditions of very high arousal-
所以在非常高的唤醒条件下——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
even highly trained people, for that condition, they just default-
即使是训练有素的人，对于这种情况，他们也会默认-
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to whatever it is that they're used to doing.
无论他们习惯做什么。
And if you don't know what to do, you default to not knowing what to do.
而如果你不知道该做什么，那么你就默认了不知道该做什么。
If you know what to do, you default to what you think you need to do in one situation.
如果您知道该怎么做，您就会默认在一种情况下执行您认为需要执行的操作。
And I've had that experience scuba diving.
我也有过水肺潜水的经历。
It's very clear from this documentary.
从这部纪录片中可以非常清楚地看出。
And I think we're all a little naive in thinking that, oh, no, when the alarm goes and everything is crazy, I'm going to sort through this in a regimented way.
我认为我们都有点天真地认为，哦，不，当警报响起并且一切都变得疯狂时，我将以一种有条理的方式来解决这个问题。
Or I'll be so keyed up, I'll have to figure it out.
不然我会很紧张，我得想办法。
This is not quite the case.
事实并非如此。
The brain seems to not work that way.
大脑似乎不是这样运作的。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah, I think we discover that in these extreme situations, but also even in some simple situations, there's a really concerning thing that happens that people will leave children, infants in the back of their car unattended, and these infants will die because-
是的，我认为我们发现，在这些极端的情况下，甚至在一些简单的情况下，都会发生一件非常令人担忧的事情，人们会把孩子、婴儿留在车后座无人看管，而这些婴儿会死亡，因为-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
On hot days
在炎热的日子里
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
...
...
on hot days.
在炎热的日子里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And when you look at these investigations, the reason this happens is, these are very responsible, very intelligent parents who will put their child in the car and then get in the car, and then you just get in this mode of, I'm going to work.
当你看这些调查时，会发现这种情况发生的原因是，这些都是非常负责任、非常聪明的父母，他们会把孩子放在车里，然后上车，然后你就进入这种模式，我要去工作。
I'm going to do my job.
我要做我的工作了。
And you're in this routine.
而你就在这个例行公事中。
The baby falls asleep.
宝宝睡着了。
You drive to work.
你开车去上班。
You go upstairs.
你上楼吧。
You do it, and then you get this phone call of like, "Where's your infant?" Or, "Why haven't they been dropped off?" And you're thinking, "What are you talking about?"
你这样做了，然后你接到这样的电话，“你的婴儿在哪里？”或者，“为什么他们还没有被送走？”你会想：“你在说什么？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Whoa.
哇哦。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm sure many people listening to this are like, "There's no way."
相信很多人听到这句话都会说“没办法”。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Well, I think there's like, "There's no way that could happen to me.
嗯，我想，“这不可能发生在我身上。
This must be some person who's super distracted or has this..." Sadly, it happens too often to people-
这一定是某个超级心烦意乱的人，或者有这个……”可悲的是，这种情况经常发生在人们身上——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow
哇
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
...
...
all sorts of people, and I think that's part of the issue is like you're saying, she's going to grab the strap where it normally is.
各种各样的人，我认为这就是问题的一部分，就像你说的，她会抓住通常所在的带子。
You drive to work 100 times this way, but it's this one day where it was your turn to take the infant to daycare.
您以这种方式开车去上班 100 次，但就在这一天，轮到您带婴儿去托儿所了。
And you just get into this mode, this habit, this routine.
你就进入了这种模式、这个习惯、这个惯例。
And now we have to have our car talking to us.
现在我们必须让汽车与我们对话。
Some cars will even say, "Have you checked the backseat for an infant?" And it's like, gosh, have we come to that level where we need to be reminded of these things?
有些汽车甚至会问：“您检查过后座是否有婴儿吗？”就像，天哪，我们已经到了需要提醒这些事情的程度了吗？
So I think that's where you're right.
所以我认为你是对的。
It becomes lethal, that sometimes it's talked about in terms of prospective memory, of remembering to do something in the future.
它变得致命，有时它会从前瞻性记忆、记住未来做某事的角度来谈论。
We think of memory as usually as remembering to do something from the past, right?
我们通常认为记忆就是记住过去做过的事情，对吧？
But a lot of it is, what do you have to do today?
但很多问题是，你今天要做什么？
Are you meeting this person?
你正在遇见这个人吗？
We offload this to our phones and get reminders, but we're prone to forgetting, and especially under, you were talking about high arousal, this person's falling, but it's even as simple as when you're in the car, and you're probably aware when you're in the car, you start mind-wandering, you're thinking of a million other things, and all of a sudden you've arrived somewhere or you missed your turn.
我们把这些信息转移到手机上并得到提醒，但我们很容易忘记，尤其是在你谈论高度兴奋、这个人跌倒的情况下，但这甚至就像你在车里一样简单，你可能意识到当你在车里时，你开始走神，你正在思考一百万件其他事情，突然间你已经到达某个地方或者你错过了轮到你的时间。
So our brain kind of takes over in ways that we might not be sure about.
所以我们的大脑以我们可能不确定的方式接管。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, one of the things that spooks me about scuba diving, and I love scuba diving, is I got my PADI certification because it's a bit more involved, but it worries me that you actually don't have to update, and if you do, not very often.
是的，让我对水肺潜水感到害怕的一件事是我获得了 PADI 认证，因为它涉及的内容更多一些，而且我喜欢水肺潜水，但让我担心的是你实际上不需要更新，即使更新了，也不会经常更新。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's been, gosh, it's been four or more, five years since I went scuba diving last time.
天哪，自从我上次去水肺潜水已经过去四五年了。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I've got my card, I have my gear.
但我有我的卡，我有我的装备。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And if somebody wants to go scuba diving tomorrow-
如果有人明天想去水肺潜水-
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I can do it legally.
我可以合法地做。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But there's a lot involved.
但这涉及很多事情。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You need to brush up, and so-
你需要刷刷刷，所以——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
here in the United States, we have all this, people can sue each other, there are all these legal protections, but there's still a lot of ways in which we can do damage to ourselves or others just by virtue of the fact that we don't have to brush up on driving skills.
在美国，我们拥有这一切，人们可以互相起诉，有所有这些法律保护，但我们仍然有很多方法可以仅仅因为我们不需要提高驾驶技能而对自己或他人造成伤害。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's kind of a shock to me that we don't have more problems related to forgetting.
让我感到震惊的是，我们没有遇到更多与遗忘有关的问题。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
It's true.
这是真的。
I think the more you think about it, it's amazing how much we do remember, especially under some circumstances.
我想你想得越多，你就会惊奇地发现我们确实记得这么多，尤其是在某些情况下。
But I agree that a lot of this, scuba diving too, because you're underwater with buoyancy, you have to figure things out, and I got certified too when I was 20.
但我同意很多这样的事情，水肺潜水也是如此，因为你在水下有浮力，你必须弄清楚事情，我在 20 岁时也获得了认证。
I wouldn't trust myself to do it again.
我不相信自己会再这样做。
I'd want to probably take the entire course again.
我可能想再次参加整个课程。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
But when you're 30, maybe you feel confident and especially drivers, like new drivers, you give very little training to younger drivers, and then you're like, "You're on your own." I've seen it with my children learning to drive.
但当你30岁的时候，也许你会感到自信，尤其是车手，比如新车手，你对年轻车手的培训很少，然后你会说，“你只能靠自己了。”我在孩子们学开车的时候就看到过这样的情况。
I also realize I'm not as good a driver as I thought I was.
我也意识到我并不像我想象的那么好。
I'm certainly passing on some habits that I probably should be more aware of, and they're more rule-based.
当然，我正在传承一些我可能应该更加注意的习惯，而且它们更加基于规则。
They're aware of how to do things.
他们知道如何做事。
But I have this feeling, like this wisdom, well, you don't need to do that, or that's the rule, but I do it this way.
但我有这种感觉，就像这种智慧，嗯，你不需要这样做，或者这是规则，但我这样做。
So I think you're right.
所以我认为你是对的。
I think revisiting these things more often and being more cognizant probably would make us safer.
我认为更频繁地重新审视这些事情并更加了解可能会让我们更安全。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
On the lighter side, many people who are concerned about their memory as they age will ask about forgetting.
从乐观的角度来看，随着年龄的增长，许多担心自己记忆力的人会询问遗忘的问题。
I want to know why as people get older, they tell the same stories over and over again, same jokes over and over again.
我想知道为什么随着年龄的增长，人们会一遍又一遍地讲同样的故事，一遍又一遍地讲同样的笑话。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Have they forgotten that they've said the joke, or are they just doing it for their own entertainment?
他们是否忘记了自己说过这个笑话，或者他们只是为了自己的娱乐而这样做？
Or I don't know.
或者我不知道。
Like what-
就像什么-
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is this about?
这是关于？
I feel like someone needs to do that study.
我觉得有人需要做这项研究。
Like why-
比如为什么-
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
do people tell the same stories as they get older?
随着年龄的增长，人们会讲同样的故事吗？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Well, I think there's a lot of reasons, and a lot of memories do change with age, and some forms of memory, like source memory, tends to decline with age.
嗯，我认为有很多原因，很多记忆确实会随着年龄的增长而改变，某些形式的记忆，比如源记忆，往往会随着年龄的增长而衰退。
You can't remember where you saw the headline or who you told the joke to.
您不记得在哪里看到标题或给谁讲过这个笑话。
And sometimes I'll even say, "Have I told you this before?" But sometimes it's just such a good joke or such a good memory, I'm like, "I don't really care because I'm going to tell it to you again because I'm enjoying this." And my kids will be like, "Yeah, we've heard that so many times." I'm like, "Yeah, but it's so good." So it's probably a little bit of both, but I think there's also some nostalgia.
有时我什至会说：“我以前告诉过你吗？”但有时这只是一个很好的笑话或一个很好的回忆，我想，“我真的不在乎，因为我会再告诉你一次，因为我很享受这个。”我的孩子们会说，“是的，我们已经听过很多次了。”我想，“是啊，但是太好了。”所以可能两者都有一点，但我认为还有一些怀旧之情。
We do share family histories this way.
我们确实以这种方式分享家族史。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And I think when families get together for Thanksgiving, there's this rehashing of, "Do you remember when this happened?" It's like, "Yep, we tell that story every time." A lot of our histories used to be oral histories, where we're telling stories and reminding people, and it's how we determine what foods were safe.
我认为当家人聚在一起过感恩节时，人们会重复这样的问题：“你还记得这件事是什么时候发生的吗？”就像，“是的，我们每次都讲这个故事。”我们的很多历史过去都是口述历史，我们在其中讲述故事并提醒人们，这就是我们确定哪些食物是安全的方式。
But yeah, I can see it's certainly frustrating, and I think we think, "Gosh, I'm talking to this older person.
但是，是的，我可以看到这确实令人沮丧，我想我们会想，“天哪，我正在和这个老人说话。
They're telling me the same thing again," and you're nodding.
他们又告诉我同样的事情了，”你点点头。
But I take a certain amount of enjoyment from it.
但我从中获得了一定的享受。
There's a nostalgia.
有一种怀旧之情。
There's also a feeling of familiarity.
还有一种熟悉的感觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And so probably it's a collection of things.
所以它可能是一些东西的集合。
But you do see more pathological aging that people will completely forget.
但你确实会看到更多人们会完全忘记的病理性衰老。
They'll say the same things.
他们会说同样的话。
They'll ask what's for dinner again, five minutes later, what's for dinner again, what's for dinner again?
他们又会问晚饭吃什么，五分钟后，又问晚饭吃什么，又问晚饭吃什么？
And that's where it's probably more concerning.
这可能就是更令人担忧的地方。
But it is an interesting thing to note that as we get older, we might engage in that sort of behavior.
但有趣的是，随着年龄的增长，我们可能会出现这种行为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What is the consensus now on Alzheimer's and memory loss generally, meaning is it inevitable that people lose some amount of memory and conditions like Alzheimer's are just a more rapid downward trajectory?
现在人们对阿尔茨海默氏症和记忆丧失的普遍共识是什么？这意味着人们不可避免地会失去一定程度的记忆，而像阿尔茨海默氏症这样的疾病只是一个更快的下降轨迹？
And we could talk about superagers, these people that seem to maintain cognition well better than their peers anyway.
我们可以谈论超级老人，这些人的认知能力似乎比同龄人更好。
Are there people who just are sharp till the day they take their last breath, and that last breath comes in their 90s or even past 100?
有没有人直到咽下最后一口气的那一天仍然很敏锐，而最后一口气是在他们90多岁甚至100多岁的时候？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah, I think just the diversity that accompanies aging is really interesting.
是的，我认为伴随衰老而来的多样性真的很有趣。
You could look at a 100-year-old who's doing really well and a 60-year-old who's not doing so well.
你可以看看一个 100 岁的老人表现得很好，而一个 60 岁的老人则表现不佳。
So we can't just use biological age as the marker.
所以我们不能仅仅用生理年龄作为标志。
And as a psychologist, of course, I'm interested in psychological aspects.
作为一名心理学家，我当然对心理学方面感兴趣。
And there's an old study on nuns who...
有一项关于修女的古老研究......
It's interesting to see how you can test different people, but nuns are very committed to their profession.
看看如何测试不同的人很有趣，但修女们非常致力于她们的职业。
And you found that these nuns, how they age, some of them certainly when they passed away, their brains had these hallmark signs of dementia, plaques, and tangles.
你发现这些修女，她们如何衰老，其中一些人在去世时，她们的大脑出现了痴呆、斑块和缠结等标志性迹象。
But behaviorally, they were still high functioning.
但在行为上，他们的功能仍然很高。
So it's really interesting that the hardware shows what we see as dementia and specifically Alzheimer's disease, but their behavior was that of a fairly healthy cognitive person.
因此，非常有趣的是，硬件显示了我们所看到的痴呆症，特别是阿尔茨海默病，但他们的行为却是一个相当健康的认知人的行为。
So something else has to be going on and it could be, some people say it's having a sense of purpose.
所以必须有其他事情发生，有些人说这可能是有一种使命感。
It could be having social connections.
它可能有社会关系。
We know that's incredibly important.
我们知道这非常重要。
I think we do have a certain amount of control over it, and some of it might be based on physical exercise and sleep.
我认为我们确实对其有一定程度的控制，其中一些可能是基于体育锻炼和睡眠。
So I know things you've talked about before.
所以我知道你之前谈论过的事情。
And some of it is having a positive attitude about aging.
其中一些是对衰老持积极态度。
Some people say, "Well, it's all genetic, so what do I have to do?" Well, if you go on a walk, some really good research shows that walking three, four times a week can enhance hippocampal function, the part of the brain that's very involved in declarative memory.
有些人说：“好吧，这都是遗传的，那我该怎么办呢？”嗯，如果你去散步，一些非常好的研究表明，每周步行三到四次可以增强海马体功能，海马体是大脑中与陈述性记忆密切相关的部分。
And that part of the brain, having turned 50 recently, tends to decline by about 1 to 2% a year in terms of volume.
大脑的这一部分最近刚满 50 岁，其体积往往每年减少约 1% 至 2%。
So this is physical shrinkage of the brain.
所以这是大脑的物理萎缩。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
But in the walking group, the group that was randomly assigned to walk three, four times a week for 40 minutes, compared to a stretching group, who's still engaging in exercise but not cardiovascular exercise, the walking group, their hippocampus actually increased in volume by 1%.
但在步行组中，被随机分配每周步行三、四次，每次 40 分钟的那组，与仍在进行运动但不进行心血管运动的拉伸组相比，步行组的海马体体积实际上增加了 1%。
So you're changing the brain, but you're also changing the behavior.
所以你正在改变大脑，但你也在改变行为。
Their memory was much better a year later.
一年后，他们的记忆力好多了。
So I think if you saw a doctor and said, "I'm having some memory problems.
所以我想如果你去看医生并说：“我有一些记忆问题。
What can I do?" Most people are looking for a pill, or sometimes it's eat this or do that.
我能做什么？”大多数人都在寻找药丸，或者有时是吃这个或做那个。
But I think physical exercise can be so important.
但我认为体育锻炼非常重要。
And probably the mechanism we don't know exactly, but it probably trickles down to things like improvements in sleep as well.
也许我们并不确切知道其中的机制，但它可能也会影响睡眠的改善等。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
If you're getting exercise maybe earlier in the day, you're going to have a better mood.
如果您在一天早些时候进行锻炼，您的心情就会更好。
You're going to sleep better.
你会睡得更好。
We know a lot of memory formation happens when you're sleeping.
我们知道很多记忆的形成是在睡觉时发生的。
We know as we get older, our sleep quality tends to decline, even if our quantity tends to increase.
我们知道，随着年龄的增长，我们的睡眠质量往往会下降，即使我们的睡眠数量往往会增加。
So I think just knowing that there are some things we can do, and I'm using physical exercise as the example, and it doesn't have to be the extreme version.
所以我认为只要知道我们可以做一些事情，我以体育锻炼为例，它不一定是极端的版本。
Walking, dancing, a lot of people enjoy being outside.
散步、跳舞，很多人喜欢户外活动。
That can be incredibly important to offset some of the things we do know can lead to dementia.
这对于抵消我们所知道的一些可能导致痴呆症的因素非常重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Was the walking vigorous?
走路的时候力度大吗？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
In this group, I think it's really 30 to 40 minutes, and there's nothing special certainly about walking, but it's something where you can randomly assign people to either walk or engage in stretching.
在这个小组中，我认为实际上是 30 到 40 分钟，步行确实没有什么特别的，但你可以随机分配人们步行或进行伸展运动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
So if you're biking, if you're swimming, if you're dancing, any of these things can be beneficial.
因此，如果您骑自行车、游泳、跳舞，这些事情中的任何一个都可能是有益的。
But here you can randomly assign people to walk, and it should be at a rate where you're...
但在这里你可以随机分配人走路，而且应该以你所在的速度......
There's research showing that the people who walk slightly faster actually live longer.
有研究表明，走得稍快的人实际上寿命更长。
So you're not sure exactly.
所以你不确定。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So reverse causality there?
那么因果关系颠倒了吗？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Could certainly be that.
肯定是这样的。
And a lot of this research, it's tough to do aging research because it's hard to randomly assign people to certain conditions.
很多研究都很难进行衰老研究，因为很难将人们随机分配到某些条件下。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
But I think as a psychologist, knowing that you have a little bit of control over the process is important.
但我认为作为一名心理学家，知道你对这个过程有一点控制权很重要。
And I think most people when they talk about aging, they're so worried about dementia and Alzheimer's disease as a specific form.
我认为大多数人在谈论衰老时，都会非常担心痴呆症和阿尔茨海默病作为一种特殊形式。
But balance is even more important, I think, and most people aren't even aware of their balance.
但我认为平衡更为重要，而大多数人甚至没有意识到自己的平衡。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
So one in four people over the age of 65 will experience a fall, and that fall can be very detrimental.
因此，65 岁以上的人中有四分之一会经历跌倒，而这种跌倒可能非常有害。
You can break your hip, your collarbone.
你可能会折断你的臀部、你的锁骨。
Often, you're getting up at night more frequently.
通常，您夜里起床的频率会更高。
You trip over a carpet or a rug.
您被地毯或地毯绊倒。
And if you're in bed, if recovering from these falls, you're not walking.
如果你躺在床上，如果从跌倒中恢复过来，你就无法行走。
Your hippocampus is shrinking.
你的海马体正在萎缩。
If you ask people, "How's your balance?" Most people are like, "Well, it's fine.
如果你问人们“你的平衡怎么样？”大多数人都会说：“好吧，没关系。
I haven't had a fall." But there's a very simple test, we could do it now if you wanted, where you just stand up and see if you can balance on one leg for at least 10 seconds.
我没有摔倒过。”但有一个非常简单的测试，如果您愿意，我们现在就可以做，您只需站起来，看看您是否可以用一条腿保持平衡至少 10 秒钟。
And when I do presentations, I do this ideally 30, 40 minutes into the presentation.
当我做演示时，我最好在演示开始 30、40 分钟后进行。
We shouldn't be sitting for so long.
我们不应该坐这么久。
And most people do pretty well.
大多数人都做得很好。
It's a younger group, and sometimes it's older adults I'm speaking to.
这是一个年轻的群体，有时我正在和老年人交谈。
And you can tell, I'm like, "Make sure you have something you can hold onto." And you can tell that balance changes considerably with age.
你可以看出，我会说，“确保你有一些可以抓住的东西。”您可以看出，平衡随着年龄的增长而发生很大变化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And then I say, "Okay, now try doing it with your eyes closed."
然后我说：“好吧，现在试着闭着眼睛做。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And I actually usually don't do this with my older adult group because then you see the younger people start to tip.
事实上，我通常不会对我的老年人群体这样做，因为这样你就会看到年轻人开始给小费。
And we get a lot of cues from our visual environment for balance.
我们从视觉环境中获得了很多平衡的线索。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The older people tip?
老年人要给小费吗？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Everyone.
大家。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
You'll see the younger people-
你会看到年轻人——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, I see.
哦，我明白了。
Okay
好的
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
...
...
start to tip.
开始给小费。
That's why it's even more surprising.
正因如此，才更令人惊讶。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's like a field sobriety test.
这就像一场现场清醒测试。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
It very much is.
确实如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
But it's, again, from this metacognitive standpoint, where you think your balance is fine because you haven't had a fall, but you could be close to falling at any given point.
但同样，从元认知的角度来看，你认为你的平衡很好，因为你没有跌倒，但你可能在任何给定点都接近跌倒。
And so, the cerebellum, the almost very primitive part of the brain, is involved in a lot of this.
因此，小脑，即大脑中几乎非常原始的部分，参与了很多事情。
What's interesting with balance is it's very trainable.
平衡的有趣之处在于它非常容易训练。
And so, there's parts of balance that involve visual, inner ear, but if you engage in some training, it can be as simple as standing on one leg or doing yoga or tai chi, you can improve your balance considerably within a month or two.
因此，平衡的某些部分涉及视觉、内耳，但如果你进行一些训练，可以像单腿站立或做瑜伽或太极拳一样简单，你可以在一两个月内显着提高你的平衡能力。
And so I think when I talk to older adults who sometimes are even middle-aged, worried about their memory, I think balance is often overlooked, and it's something that's trainable.
所以我认为，当我与有时甚至是中年的老年人交谈时，担心他们的记忆力，我认为平衡经常被忽视，而这是可以训练的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
So I've started to do it a little bit, and I've noticed changes in my balance.
所以我开始做了一点，我注意到我的平衡发生了变化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Sometimes good.
有时很好。
I also notice when I don't sleep well, my balance isn't as good.
我还注意到，当我睡眠不好时，我的平衡能力就会较差。
And I think that's probably the most important thing to be on the lookout for because these things are related.
我认为这可能是最需要注意的事情，因为这些事情是相关的。
If you lose your balance and you have a fall, you're not going to be engaging in physical exercise.
如果您失去平衡并跌倒，您将无法进行体育锻炼。
Your memory's going to decline.
你的记忆力会下降。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
The old skiers and the old surfers look to be in pretty awesome shape.
老滑雪者和老冲浪者看起来身材都很棒。
There are a million compounds there.
那里有一百万种化合物。
The sunlight, the social connection-
阳光、社交——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the water, the cold.
水，冷。
There are a bunch of things.
有很多事情。
Obviously, it's not just the skiing or the surfing.
显然，这不仅仅是滑雪或冲浪。
But there are certain sports where you look at the people and you say, "Okay, they're not the biggest and strongest, nor are they the ones with the most endurance, but on balance-
但在某些运动项目中，你看着那些人，你会说：“好吧，他们不是最大、最强的人，也不是最有耐力的人，但总的来说——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
they seem strong.
他们看起来很坚强。
Their posture looks good."
他们的姿势看起来不错。”
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They seem relatively happy.
他们看上去比较幸福。
Who knows?
谁知道？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
I'm intrigued by the fact that I look at a lot of these videos of superagers and athletes in their 70s, 80s, 90s, who are doing remarkably well.
我很感兴趣的是，我看了很多 70 多岁、80 多岁、90 多岁的超级老人和运动员的视频，他们都表现得非常好。
It's very rare to see a video of athletes or non-athletes past 80 where they're breathing through their nose with their mouth shut.
很少有视频显示 80 岁以上的运动员或非运动员闭着嘴用鼻子呼吸。
Almost always you see .
几乎总能看到。
Now, I'm not saying it's causal.
现在，我并不是说这是因果关系。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But there does seem to be a shift in the way that people breathe as they get older.
但随着年龄的增长，人们的呼吸方式似乎确实发生了变化。
Just look at some of the, I forget his name now, he's a television personality who's been around a while.
看看其中的一些，我现在忘记他的名字了，他是一位已经存在了一段时间的电视名人。
He's in his 100s, and he's been on YouTube and news programs recently.
他已经 100 多岁了，最近经常出现在 YouTube 和新闻节目中。
But at rest, it's like a mouth-open breathing pattern.
但在休息时，这就像张嘴呼吸模式。
You kind of wonder whether or not they're getting enough oxygen to their brain.
你有点想知道他们的大脑是否获得了足够的氧气。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I do think that the shift in how we breathe, spontaneous movement, these things all go together.
我确实认为我们呼吸方式的转变、自发运动，这些都是相辅相成的。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I do think each component part needs to be looked at individually.
我确实认为每个组成部分都需要单独考虑。
So, okay, so it's the movement, it's the exercise, the novelty, the social connection, but ultimately, there's a lot of other things going on.
所以，好吧，所以这是运动、锻炼、新奇、社交联系，但最终，还有很多其他的事情在发生。
Like we know older people just don't move spontaneously very much.
正如我们所知，老年人不太会自发地活动。
We had Twyla Tharp in here, the-
我们这里有特怀拉·撒普，那个——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
world-famous choreographer, and she's somewhere in her 80s.
世界著名编舞家，她已经80多岁了。
She can deadlift twice her body weight.
她可以硬拉两倍于体重的重量。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Works out at 5:00 a.m.
早上 5:00 锻炼
every morning for two hours.
每天早上两个小时。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
She boxed for a while.
她打了一会儿拳击。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But actual boxing, because she's Twyla.
但真正的拳击，因为她是特怀拉。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
She's really got a lot of spirit.
她确实很有精神。
But she doesn't sit like I'm sitting, like kind of lazing back.
但她的坐姿并不像我那样，是一种懒洋洋的坐姿。
She's-
她是——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
she's fully active, and she's moving, and she's nasal breathing unless she's speaking.
她非常活跃，她在移动，除非她说话，否则她都是用鼻呼吸。
Like she's-
就像她——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
her nervous system is turned on.
她的神经系统被打开了。
I notice that and I go, "God willing, I'll be like that." But I notice with each passing year, I take a few more opportunities to lean against things as opposed to standing up, not leaning against them.
我注意到了这一点，然后我说：“上帝保佑，我会像那样的。”但我注意到，随着时间的推移，我会花更多的机会去依靠事物，而不是站起来，不依靠它们。
Or I'm starting to resemble the bulldogs I've owned.
或者我开始变得像我养的斗牛犬。
There's an opportunity to lie down, they lie down.
有机会躺下，他们就躺下。
If there's an opportunity to sleep, they...
如果有机会睡觉，他们...
And I don't know that that's good.
我不知道这有什么好处。
Maybe we need to nudge ourselves to be a little more active than we're comfortable.
也许我们需要督促自己变得比我们感到舒服的更加活跃一些。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
No, I think the insight is so important to be like, "I notice I'm doing more of this," or "I'm looking a lot like this, and I'm surprised." So things starting in like posture or even breathing, and I think, I'm not an expert in this area, but just getting more oxygen to the brain is so important.
不，我认为这种洞察力非常重要，比如“我注意到我做了更多这样的事情”，或者“我看起来很像这样，我很惊讶”。所以事情从姿势甚至呼吸开始，我想，我不是这方面的专家，但为大脑提供更多氧气非常重要。
And I think that's probably the mechanism, for physical exercise, you're getting more oxygen to your brain, which really as you get older, it's harder to do that.
我认为这可能就是体育锻炼的机制，你的大脑会获得更多的氧气，随着年龄的增长，做到这一点会变得更加困难。
And so exercise might be kind of the mechanism that does that.
因此，锻炼可能是实现这一目标的一种机制。
And maybe with the advances, we're going to find other ways to do that.
也许随着技术的进步，我们将找到其他方法来做到这一点。
But I think that insight is really important, and it's also we have age-based stereotypes of what happens.
但我认为洞察力非常重要，而且我们对所发生的事情也有基于年龄的刻板印象。
Like, oh, as you get older, let's say my knee hurts, and some people-
就像，哦，随着年龄的增长，假设我的膝盖受伤了，有些人-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
...
...
are like, "Oh, well, you're just getting older." Well, my other knee is the same age, and it feels fine.
就像，“哦，好吧，你只是变老了。”嗯，我的另一个膝盖也有同样的年龄，感觉还不错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Good point.
好点。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
So something's going on.
所以有些事情正在发生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hey.
嘿。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Maybe there's some trauma.
也许有一些外伤。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How about if there's something?
如果有的话怎么办？
Yeah.
是的。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
There's something.
有东西。
But it-
但它——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
...
...
it does give you this feeling like, hey, there's something I can do.
它确实会给你这样的感觉，嘿，我可以做点什么。
Or maybe, I'm a firm believer like in physical therapy.
或者也许，我是物理疗法的坚定信徒。
Like a lot of the exercises we do, if you keep doing the same thing, that's great, but then you lose a lot of the other muscle mass.
就像我们做的很多练习一样，如果你继续做同样的事情，那很好，但是你会失去很多其他肌肉质量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And I think exercise, even walking, people will say it's really like a controlled form of losing your balance and regaining it.
我认为锻炼，甚至步行，人们会说这实际上就像是一种失去平衡并重新获得平衡的受控形式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And losing your balance and regaining it.
失去平衡又恢复平衡。
And so you add that into hiking, which has unpredictable surfaces, and all these muscles that you're not using too often now have to be engaged.
所以你把它添加到徒步旅行中，因为徒步旅行的路面是不可预测的，所有这些你不经常使用的肌肉现在都必须投入使用。
And so I think that coming back to like challenging yourself can be very important, putting yourself in uncomfortable positions.
所以我认为重新开始喜欢挑战自己是非常重要的，让自己处于不舒服的境地。
It's great to be on this podcast, but there's a time where I'm like, "I'm not sure I want to do this." Right?
很高兴能参加这个播客，但有时我会想，“我不确定我是否想这样做。”正确的？
How do you get that-
你怎么得到那个-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You feeling that way now?
你现在有这样的感觉吗？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
No. Now I feel fine.
不，现在我感觉很好。
But I think as we put ourselves in these uncomfortable-
但我认为当我们把自己置于这些不舒服的境地时——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
...
...
positions and I remember when I first started teaching, like, gosh, 300 people, this is an uncomfortable situation.
我记得当我第一次开始教学时，天哪，有 300 个人，这是一个不舒服的情况。
And one of my mentors said, "You know what?
我的一位导师说：“你知道吗？
There's only one thing you need to do, and that's breathe."
你只需要做一件事，那就是呼吸。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Because you start to forget that-
因为你开始忘记——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
...
...
that is the most primitive thing, to get oxygen to your brain, that then you can do what you probably can do quite well.
这是最原始的事情，让氧气进入你的大脑，然后你就可以做你可能做得很好的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And that's a psychological oversight where we just kind of start, I don't know if it's just mouth breathing, but as we get older, or there's more stress, we stop being aware of the things that can really help us.
这是一种心理疏忽，我们刚刚开始，我不知道这是否只是用嘴呼吸，但随着年龄的增长，或者压力越来越大，我们就不再意识到那些真正可以帮助我们的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I notice with each passing year, I get a little more difficult with myself about the little things.
是的，我注意到，随着时间的推移，我对自己的一些小事变得更加困难。
Just like, so I try to this day, I have to push myself to take the stairs a little bit faster than I want to.
就像，所以我今天一直在努力，我必须强迫自己走得比我想要的快一点。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't take escalators unless there's no stairs available.
除非没有楼梯，否则我不会乘坐自动扶梯。
When I travel, I find I have to push.
当我旅行时，我发现我必须推动。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Perhaps a collateral advantage of doing this podcast is I say things like that and now I don't want to get spotted in an airport on an escalator.
也许做这个播客的一个附带好处是我说了类似的话，现在我不想在机场的自动扶梯上被发现。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The other day, I normally train at a home gym, but I was in a commercial gym, and I was listening to music on my phone, and this kid came up to me and he taps.
有一天，我通常在家庭健身房训练，但我在商业健身房里，我正在手机上听音乐，这个孩子向我走来，他敲击着。
He goes, "I thought you don't use your phone when you work out."
他说：“我以为你锻炼时不会使用手机。”
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Busted.
被抓了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I was like, "Sometimes I listen to things.
我当时想，“有时我会听一些东西。
I'm not texting and sending messages." And he's like, "Okay"
我不会发短信和发送消息。”他说：“好吧”
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's like, wow, well-
就像，哇，好吧——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I have to be careful what I say.
我必须小心我所说的话。
But it's nice.
但这很好。
It actually has a forcing function, right?
它实际上有一个强制功能，对吗？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think that as we get older, there are a lot of things where we're not being observed.
我认为随着年龄的增长，有很多事情我们不会被观察到。
We know we should do them, but then we don't do them.
我们知道我们应该这样做，但我们却不这样做。
And I think the injury thing, and the pain thing, is a big one.
我认为受伤和疼痛是一件大事。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I hear this all the time.
我一直听到这个。
Like, "Yeah, I would exercise more, but I got this shoulder thing." And I think that's why there's so much excitement about these peptides, and it's still very unclear what's-
就像，“是的，我会多锻炼，但我的肩膀有问题。”我认为这就是为什么这些肽如此令人兴奋，但目前还不清楚是什么-
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
going to be useful or not.
是否有用。
Actually, there's a study out of Helen Blau's lab at Stanford on mice and humans where they found an inhibitor of the molecule that inhibits cartilage regeneration.
事实上，斯坦福大学海伦·布劳 (Helen Blau) 实验室对小鼠和人类进行了一项研究，他们发现了一种抑制软骨再生的分子抑制剂。
They knock out this inhibitor, or they have a drug kind of analog that can do this in humans, and they observe regeneration of knee cartilage.
他们敲除这种抑制剂，或者他们有一种药物类似物可以在人类身上做到这一点，并且他们观察膝软骨的再生。
I'm sure this is going to be sourced to pharma.
我确信这将采购给制药公司。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's going to be the path, because that's the typical path for labs at Stanford if they have a discovery like that.
这将是一条路径，因为如果斯坦福大学的实验室有这样的发现，这就是他们的典型路径。
But how cool would that be?
但那有多酷呢？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right now, knock on wood-
现在，敲木头——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I have no joint issues.
我没有关节问题。
But how cool would that be?
但那有多酷呢？
Because I think a lot of people just think, well, the body wears out.
因为我认为很多人只是想，好吧，身体会疲惫不堪。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The hip wears out.
臀部磨损了。
The knee wears out.
膝盖磨损了。
And so when they have that pain, they don't think they could overcome it by movement.
因此，当他们感到疼痛时，他们认为无法通过运动来克服它。
They assume, well, the chassis' kind of going and then...
他们假设底盘会正常运转，然后……
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, a lot of this comes down to habits, and some of it is motivation, right?
嗯，这很大程度上取决于习惯，其中一些是动机，对吧？
It's hard to get motivated to go to the gym.
很难有动力去健身房。
And as you get older, more aches and pains, it's harder to get up.
随着年龄的增长，疼痛会越来越多，起床也越来越困难。
It's easier to sit down.
坐下来比较容易。
But I think knowing you have some control over it, that a lot of, especially in midlife, people have back pain.
但我认为知道你可以控制它，很多人，特别是在中年，都会有背痛。
It's probably the most common thing, and it's probably from sitting.
这可能是最常见的事情，而且可能是由于坐着造成的。
We work a lot, and especially in midlife, it's not always a linear decline with age.
我们工作很多，尤其是在中年，工作并不总是随着年龄的增长而线性下降。
And in fact, there's some interesting work on happiness being more curvilinear.
事实上，有一些有趣的研究让幸福变得更加曲线化。
Midlife is actually some of the lowest levels of happiness and life satisfaction.
中年实际上是幸福感和生活满意度最低的时期。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Like our age?
和我们这个年纪一样吗？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
50?
50？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
So I hope in some ways, actually-
所以我希望在某些方面，实际上——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, no.
哦，不。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Well, in some ways it can make-
嗯，在某些方面它可以使——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I feel great, but-
我感觉很好，但是——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, it can make you feel good because a lot of people who might not feel great at 40 or 50, if you said, well, actually, that's the lowest point in the graph, and it can actually get better with age.
嗯，它可以让你感觉良好，因为很多人在 40 岁或 50 岁时可能感觉不太好，如果你说，好吧，实际上，这是图表中的最低点，而且随着年龄的增长，情况实际上会变得更好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
The title of my book.
我的书的标题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
But it makes you realize that as we get older, there are more aches and pains.
但它让你意识到，随着年龄的增长，会有更多的疼痛。
And yet, why are older adults, some of them, who are fairly healthy and active, are doing really well?
然而，为什么老年人（其中一些相当健康和活跃）却表现得很好呢？
Whereas when you're younger and your body's in decent shape, we're doing things like sitting, we're working a lot, we're stressed, we're not handling our emotions as well as we could.
而当你年轻、身体状况良好时，我们会做诸如坐着之类的事情，我们工作很多，我们压力很大，我们不能很好地处理我们的情绪。
And so I think that's why aging is an interesting thing, that we think when we're young, that's the best times in our lives.
所以我认为这就是为什么衰老是一件有趣的事情，我们认为年轻时是我们生命中最美好的时光。
It actually might be some of the most confusing times.
这实际上可能是最令人困惑的时期。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are you happier at 50 than you were at 40?
你50岁时比40岁时更快乐吗？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
I think I am.
我想我是。
I think I'm more content.
我想我更满足了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
But when I was at 20 or 30, I could do whatever I want.
但当我20岁或30岁的时候，我可以做任何我想做的事。
I could scuba dive, I could play basketball, I'd bounce back from an injury way quicker.
我可以水肺潜水，我可以打篮球，我可以更快地从伤病中恢复过来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But were you happier?
但你更快乐吗？
Was your internal landscape more peaceful or more hectic?
你的内心是更平静还是更忙碌？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Absolutely not.
绝对不是。
And I actually see it in a lot of undergraduates-
事实上我在很多本科生身上都看到了这一点——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
...
...
who are like, it's a confusing time.
谁是这样的，这是一个令人困惑的时刻。
You're trying to figure out what you want to do.
你正在努力弄清楚你想做什么。
You're in a different place.
你在另一个地方。
You have different partners.
你们有不同的伙伴。
And yet we say, we almost romanticize that college is the best time in your life.
然而我们说，我们几乎浪漫化了大学是你一生中最美好的时光。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh my God, no.
天哪，不。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'll say, even though I am very happy, 40 was rough.
我想说，虽然我很幸福，但40岁还是很艰难的。
My 40th birthday, I was like, "This is rough." And coming up in sciences, I loved doing it.
我 40 岁生日的时候，我当时想，“这太粗糙了。”当我进入科学领域时，我喜欢这样做。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Loved the experience, but it was very stressful.
很喜欢这种经历，但压力很大。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Raising money for your lab.
为你的实验室筹集资金。
A postdoc is a very uncertain time.
博士后是一个非常不确定的时期。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A lot of uncertainty, lot of stress.
很多不确定性，很多压力。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And now, I have stressors, but I view them differently.
现在，我有压力源，但我对它们的看法不同。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I feel completely differently about stress in general.
总的来说，我对压力的感受完全不同。
I do a lot of things, but I don't think teen years, certainly not for me, or 20s or 30s are the best years of your life.
我做了很多事情，但我不认为青少年时期，当然不适合我，或者二十多岁或三十多岁是人生中最美好的时光。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I can attest.
我可以证明。
It didn't suck, but it was rough.
它并不糟糕，但很粗糙。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
There's fun parts to it, and there's a lot of novelty, and you did things then that you probably wouldn't do now.
它有有趣的部分，有很多新奇的东西，你当时做了一些你现在可能不会做的事情。
But I think when we talk about aging, we're talking about how negative it can be and all these things that can happen physically.
但我认为，当我们谈论衰老时，我们谈论的是它的负面影响以及所有这些可能发生在身体上的事情。
But a lot of the older adults I talk to and I've interviewed for my book are saying, "Actually, 60 or 70 was probably the best time in my life."
但我交谈过的以及为我的书采访过的许多老年人都说：“实际上，60 岁或 70 岁可能是我一生中最美好的时光。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Nice.
不错。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not kidding then.
那我不是在开玩笑。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
That makes me feel, it's a select group who I'm talking to, but it's not like it's the best time in terms of my aches and pains or, sure, I wish I was 40 for some reasons, but those times can be very challenging and stressful.
这让我觉得，我正在和一个经过挑选的群体交谈，但就我的疼痛而言，这并不是最好的时光，或者，当然，出于某些原因，我希望自己是 40 岁，但那些时候可能非常具有挑战性和压力。
So from a psychological standpoint, it's interesting to look at these kind of nonlinear dynamics.
因此，从心理学的角度来看，研究这种非线性动力学很有趣。
It's not a linear decline.
这不是线性下降。
It's not that happiness just gets better with age.
这并不是说幸福感会随着年龄的增长而变得更好。
There can be this midlife dip.
中年时期可能会出现衰退。
And I'm not a clinical psychologist.
我不是临床心理学家。
Some people call this midlife.
有些人称之为中年。
Well, of course, there's a conflict at midlife.
嗯，当然，中年时会有冲突。
Well, there's really conflicts at every stage.
嗯，每个阶段确实都有冲突。
Some of Erikson's work said every decade there's a conflict, and it's how you resolve it allows you to kind of move on to the next stage of life.
埃里克森的一些著作指出，每十年就会出现一次冲突，解决冲突的方式可以让你进入人生的下一个阶段。
And I think sometimes we don't think about midlife as much as, well, this is what happens when you're young, and this is what happens when you're old.
我认为有时我们对中年的思考并不多，而是，年轻时会发生这种情况，年老时也会发生这种情况。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And it's probably how you deal with what happens in the middle, which allows you to age well.
这可能就是你如何处理中间发生的事情，让你能够很好地变老。
So when I talk about aging, most of the older adults I talk to, I'm not educating them on how to age well.
因此，当我谈论衰老时，我采访的大多数老年人，我并没有教育他们如何更好地衰老。
They're there and they're doing it.
他们在那里并且正在做。
It's often middle-aged people who are like, "Well, I have older parents." Most people, when they're 20 or 30, they're not thinking, "What's my life going to be like when I'm 70 or 80?"
中年人通常会说：“好吧，我有年迈的父母。”大多数人在 20 岁或 30 岁的时候，不会想：“当我 70 岁或 80 岁的时候，我的生活会是什么样子？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Even now, that's hard for me to conceptualize.
即使现在，我也很难概念化。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Sure, yeah.
当然，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I just try and do the best I can to take care of myself every day so that hopefully I'll hit 60, 70 feeling great.
我只是每天尽我所能照顾好自己，希望我能在 60、70 岁的时候感觉很棒。
I actually feel better physically now than I did in my 40s and 30s, but I was working so much then.
事实上，我现在的身体感觉比 40 多岁和 30 多岁的时候好多了，但那时我工作量太大了。
I'm not boasting.
我不是在吹嘘。
It's actually probably should be more of a point of shame.
事实上，这可能更应该是一种耻辱。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know that I recommend it for most people.
我不知道我是否向大多数人推荐它。
I worked non-stop.
我马不停蹄地工作。
And I don't know that I'd wish that on anyone.
我不知道我会希望任何人这样。
I think a little more balance would've been healthy.
我认为多一点平衡会更健康。
Now I work a lot, but I definitely take time to meditate, to pray, spend time with people in my life.
现在我工作很多，但我肯定会花时间冥想、祈祷、与生活中的人共度时光。
I really try and savor things a bit more.
我真的尝试更多地品味事物。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The problem with academic science, as you know, is there's always a deadline, a revision or-
如你所知，学术科学的问题是总是有最后期限、修改或-
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or something.
或者什么的。
There's always something.
总有一些东西。
So once you realize there's always something-
所以一旦你意识到总有一些事情——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
I think it's in a lot of professions, people are very driven early.
我认为在很多职业中，人们都很早就有动力。
They have to prove themselves.
他们必须证明自己。
You're trying to survive, make money, make a name for yourself, and that puts a lot of stress on you.
你试图生存、赚钱、为自己出名，这给你带来了很大的压力。
And as you get further along, you might realize maybe it's not worth it, or maybe I need to backtrack, or maybe there's more important things.
随着你的进一步发展，你可能会意识到也许这不值得，或者也许我需要回溯，或者也许还有更重要的事情。
And I think it really does come down to balance.
我认为这确实归结为平衡。
And, John Wooden, the UCLA basketball coach, I got to interview him.
而且，约翰·伍登，加州大学洛杉矶分校的篮球教练，我采访了他。
He was in his 90s, and he said it really comes down to two things.
他已经 90 多岁了，他说这实际上可以归结为两件事。
And I thought, "Oh, this is great.
我想：“哦，这太棒了。
Coach Wooden is going to tell me the two things." And he thought of himself as a teacher, not just a coach, so he did a very effective thing.
伍登教练会告诉我这两件事。”而且他认为自己是一名老师，而不仅仅是一名教练，所以他做了一件非常有效的事情。
He had me guess those two things.
他让我猜这两件事。
The two most important words in the English language is how he said it.
英语中最重要的两个词就是他的说法。
And here I am, a student again, and I'm thinking, "Gosh, he's a coach, so I don't know.
我又在这里，再次成为一名学生，我在想，“天哪，他是一名教练，所以我不知道。
Success, teamwork, what is it?" And he said, "The most important thing is love.
成功、团队合作，是什么？”他说：“最重要的是爱。
Be around the people you love, do the things you love." And he lost his wife well before he passed away.
和你爱的人在一起，做你爱的事。”他在去世前就失去了妻子。
He wouldn't sleep on her side of the bed.
他不会睡在她这边的床上。
He would write her a letter every month.
他每个月都会给她写一封信。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
He had report cards from his grandchildren on the wall right next to letters from presidents.
墙上挂着他孙子们的成绩单，旁边是总统的信。
So he's really surrounded by a great community, former players calling.
所以他周围确实有一个很棒的社区，有前球员的电话。
His former players were by his bedside when he passed away.
当他去世时，他以前的球员都在他的床边。
And then the second most important word is something I think a lot of people struggle with, we were talking about, is balance.
然后第二个最重要的词是我认为很多人都在努力解决的问题，我们正在谈论的是平衡。
And it's partly physical balance.
这部分是身体平衡。
He did have a fall like we were talking about.
他确实像我们所说的那样摔倒了。
And it's interesting because he had a life alert that he could press around his neck.
这很有趣，因为他有一个生命警报，他可以按在他的脖子上。
And this is why I think technology is great.
这就是为什么我认为技术是伟大的。
Maybe there's ways we can prevent falls or...
也许我们可以采取一些方法来防止跌倒或者...
But he fell in the middle of the night, and he broke his collarbone and his wrist, and he had this life alert button, but he didn't press it.
但他半夜摔倒了，锁骨和手腕都骨折了，而他有这个生命警报按钮，但他没有按下。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because of pride?
因为骄傲？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Exactly.
正是如此。
He didn't want to bother anyone.
他不想打扰任何人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's that Y chromosome.
那就是Y染色体。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
But you give people all this technology, and then you realize there's a psychological part to it as well.
但是当你向人们提供所有这些技术时，你就会意识到它也有心理作用。
He waited until the morning.
他一直等到早上。
His caretaker arrived, rushed him to the hospital.
看护人赶到，将他送往医院。
Thankfully, he survived.
值得庆幸的是，他活了下来。
But that's pride, guilt, shame, didn't want to bother someone.
但那是骄傲，内疚，羞耻，不想打扰别人。
So that's the physical balance.
这就是身体平衡。
And then I think the mental balance, as he said, like you were saying, is he was a very driven person.
然后我认为心理平衡，正如他所说，就像你所说的那样，他是一个非常有动力的人。
He was very successful with his coaching, but it meant a lot of time traveling, a lot of time away from his family, not focusing on the things that he found incredibly important.
他的执教非常成功，但这意味着需要大量时间旅行，大量时间远离家人，而不是专注于他认为非常重要的事情。
And as he got older, he felt like he could achieve more balance, spend more time doing the things he wanted, be around the people he wanted.
随着年龄的增长，他觉得自己可以实现更多的平衡，花更多的时间做他想做的事情，和他想要的人在一起。
And I think that's a struggle for a lot of people.
我认为这对很多人来说都是一场斗争。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
We get really into something, and we forget about it.
我们真正投入某件事，却忘记了它。
We're having a conversation.
我们正在交谈。
It's hard to stand up.
很难站起来。
You get focused on things.
你会专注于事情。
But as you get older, maybe you're a little bit better at finding that balance and finding that peace.
但随着年龄的增长，也许你会更好地找到平衡和平静。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Function.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 Function。
Function provides over 160 advanced lab tests to give you a clear snapshot of your bodily health.
功能提供超过 160 项高级实验室测试，让您清晰了解自己的身体健康状况。
This snapshot gives you insights into your heart health, your hormone health, autoimmune function, nutrient levels, and much more.
通过此快照，您可以深入了解心脏健康状况、激素健康状况、自身免疫功能、营养水平等。
They've also recently added access to advanced MRI and CT scans.
他们最近还增加了先进的 MRI 和 CT 扫描的访问权限。
Function not only provides testing of over 160 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, it also analyzes these results and provides recommendations for improving your health from top doctors.
Function 不仅提供对您身心健康至关重要的 160 多种生物标记物的测试，还分析这些结果并提供顶级医生改善您健康的建议。
For example, in a recent test with Function, I learned that some of my blood lipids were slightly out of range.
例如，在最近的一次 Function 测试中，我发现我的一些血脂稍微超出了范围。
As a result, I decided to start supplementing with nattokinase, which can naturally help reduce LDL cholesterol, and it did.
因此，我决定开始补充纳豆激酶，它自然可以帮助降低低密度脂蛋白胆固醇，而且确实如此。
In a follow-up test, I could confirm that this strategy worked.
在后续测试中，我可以确认这个策略是有效的。
My blood lipids are now back exactly where I want them.
我的血脂现在完全回到了我想要的水平。
Comprehensive lab testing of the sort that Function offers is just so important for health.
Function 提供的全面实验室测试对于健康非常重要。
How else are you going to know what's going on under the hood?
否则你怎么知道幕后发生了什么？
And while I've been doing blood work for years, it used to be time-consuming, complicated, and expensive.
虽然我从事血液检查已有多年，但它过去非常耗时、复杂且昂贵。
In fact, I used to spend thousands of dollars per year trying to get this kind of data, and the data, frankly, were not all that good.
事实上，我曾经每年花费数千美元试图获得此类数据，但坦率地说，这些数据并不那么好。
But now with Function, it's extremely easy and affordable.
但现在有了 Function，它变得非常简单且经济实惠。
A Function membership is only a dollar a day, $365 a year.
Function 会员每天仅需 1 美元，每年 365 美元。
And if you think about the information it provides and the health challenges it helps you avoid and the proactive things that it can do for you to enhance your health, I truly look at it as a savings.
如果您考虑一下它提供的信息、它可以帮助您避免的健康挑战以及它可以为您增强健康所做的积极主动的事情，我确实将其视为一种节省。
To learn more, visit functionhealth.com/huberman and use the code Huberman for a $50 credit towards your membership.
要了解更多信息，请访问 functionhealth.com/huberman 并使用代码 Huberman 获得 50 美元的会员积分。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman.
同样，这是 functionhealth.com/huberman。
Yeah, the notion of having to prove to oneself, or even to others, that one can do something, that's a hallmark of being younger.
是的，必须向自己甚至向他人证明一个人可以做某事，这是年轻的标志。
Yeah, I suppose some people escape that, but I think most people struggle with that social comparison thing.
是的，我想有些人逃避了这一点，但我认为大多数人都在与社会比较的事情作斗争。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it can be very useful as a lever.
它作为杠杆非常有用。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can generate a lot of hard work, great work through competition, even competitions in one's own head.
通过竞争，甚至是自己头脑中的竞争，可以产生很多艰苦的工作、伟大的工作。
But You know eventually you realize like you're the only one in this fight.
但你知道最终你会意识到你是这场战斗中唯一的人。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I don't know.
我不知道。
This podcast has a very broad audience in terms of age ranges, and so it's interesting.
这个播客的受众群体非常广泛，因此很有趣。
The younger crowd, let's just say 35 and younger, tend to have questions about how to pick direction, what direction to go.
年轻的人群，比如说35岁及以下的人，往往会对如何选择方向、走什么方向有疑问。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the older crowd generally is asking about things related to keeping their memory, their health, and these days, asking a lot of questions about whether they should revise their notions of what age appropriate physical ability or mental ability should be.
老年人通常会询问与保持记忆力、健康有关的问题，而现在，他们会问很多问题，是否应该修改自己对于适合年龄的身体能力或心理能力的观念。
I think that's a big shift-
我认为这是一个很大的转变——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
out there right now, because 20 years ago, it was assumed people would hit 70 or 80 and start to slow down.
现在就在那里，因为20年前，人们认为人们会在70岁或80岁的时候开始放慢脚步。
And now people are like, "Well, if I feel great at 50, maybe I could feel great at 60.
现在人们会说，“好吧，如果我在 50 岁时感觉很好，也许我在 60 岁时也会感觉很好。
If I could feel great at 60, maybe I could feel great at 90."
如果我能在 60 岁时感觉很好，也许我在 90 岁时也能感觉很好。”
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The possibility feels real, and I'm not talking about living longer.
这种可能性感觉是真实的，而且我并不是在谈论活得更长。
I actually don't consider myself a longevity person.
其实我并不认为自己是一个长寿的人。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sometimes I'll get lumped there.
有时我会被困在那里。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's like I've never actually focused on that.
就好像我从来没有真正关注过这一点。
Yes, I think it's great to live as long as you can at a vibrant life.
是的，我认为在充满活力的生活中尽可能长寿是件好事。
But what do you think about the messaging that we could go longer or could make more of our time?
但是，对于我们可以走得更远或可以花更多时间的信息，您有何看法？
Do you think it's net positive, or do you think that's creating a pressure for people to not live into the reality that, hey, they're like 70 and maybe slowing down and maybe telling those stories two or three times.
你认为这是净积极的，还是你认为这会给人们带来压力，让他们不要生活在现实中，嘿，他们已经70岁了，可能会放慢脚步，可能会讲这些故事两三遍。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That maybe they're supposed to shed wisdom and not supposed to be jogging around the block.
也许他们应该分享智慧，而不是在街区慢跑。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
It's so interesting to see these age-related differences, but also to see how that's shifting.
看到这些与年龄相关的差异非常有趣，而且也看到这种差异是如何变化的。
And we're certainly living longer or for the most part, if you look at our history, and there's a variety of reasons for that.
如果你看看我们的历史，我们肯定会活得更久，或者说在很大程度上，我们的寿命会更长，这有多种原因。
But you want to make sure those years that we're adding are healthy ones, because the longer you live, the greater the chance of developing dementia.
但您要确保我们添加的那些年份是健康的，因为寿命越长，患痴呆症的机会就越大。
I think from a psychological perspective, it's interesting because if you ask someone, how old do you feel?
我认为从心理学角度来看，这很有趣，因为如果你问某人，你觉得自己多大了？
That's very different than your biological age.
这与你的生理年龄有很大不同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Let's say you didn't have access to your birth cer-- Your parents actually said, "Sorry, we can't actually remember how old you are." How would you figure that out?
假设您无法访问您的出生证明 - 您的父母实际上说：“抱歉，我们实际上不记得您的年龄。”你会如何解决这个问题？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We're actually not your parents.
其实我们不是你的父母。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Surprise.
惊喜。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm joking.
我在开玩笑。
I'm sure they're my parents.
我确信他们是我的父母。
Yeah.
是的。
That's an interesting question.
这是一个有趣的问题。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And this is known as subjective age.
这就是所谓的主观年龄。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And there's a physical feeling.
还有一种身体上的感觉。
There's also this mental feeling.
还有这种心理感受。
So how do we assign that?
那么我们如何分配呢？
And actually, after the age of 40, most people feel about 20% younger than their actual age.
事实上，40岁以后，大多数人感觉自己比实际年龄年轻20%左右。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And so I don't know if it's deceptive, but if you're 70, we just turned 50, and I'm like, "Wow, that sounds old."
所以我不知道这是否具有欺骗性，但如果你已经 70 岁了，我们刚刚满 50 岁，我会想，“哇，这听起来很老。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sounds old.
听起来很旧。
Yeah, it sounds old, right?
是的，听起来很老，对吧？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Because I feel about 40.
因为我感觉自己快40了。
Forty seemed more recent, but yeah, I can see some things.
四十岁似乎是最近的事，但是，是的，我可以看到一些东西。
But as you get further along, it's like, gosh, I'm in this age group.
但随着时间的推移，你会发现，天啊，我就属于这个年龄段了。
Am I supposed to do this now or behave like that?
我现在应该这样做还是那样？
But my parents are different than I was, and so I think it's interesting.
但我的父母和我不同，所以我觉得这很有趣。
It's also interesting that that subjective age is a better predictor of how long you'll live than your biological age.
同样有趣的是，主观年龄比生物年龄更能预测你的寿命。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's fascinating.
这很有趣。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
So you go to the doctor, and you're told like, "So give me how old are you?" Well, that all of a sudden, it's like, well, I guess I should behave like a 75-year-old or an 80-year-old.
所以你去看医生，医生告诉你，“那么告诉我你多大了？”嗯，突然间，我想我应该表现得像一个 75 岁或 80 岁的老人。
The doctor's not going to say, "How old do you feel?" And in some ways, people do feel their age.
医生不会说：“你感觉自己多大了？”在某些方面，人们确实能感觉到自己的年龄。
I certainly feel my age when I have an injury or when I'm like, "I'm tired," or, "Why am I getting up at 5:00 in the morning now and I can't get back to sleep?" But there's some times when it's like, no, I feel young.
当我受伤或者当我想“我累了”或者“为什么我现在早上 5:00 起床却无法入睡？”时，我当然会感觉到自己的年龄。但有时候我会想，不，我感觉自己很年轻。
And I'm not saying I'm running marathons, but I know when I coach my son's baseball team, I feel young.
我并不是说我在跑马拉松，但我知道当我执教我儿子的棒球队时，我感觉很年轻。
I feel old in some ways, but I'm like, oh, I remember how much fun this can be.
在某些方面我感觉自己老了，但我想，哦，我记得这有多有趣。
And it's nice to be around kids.
和孩子们在一起真是太好了。
And when I'm on a college campus, I'm like, this is nice to be around younger people.
当我在大学校园时，我想，和年轻人在一起真是太好了。
And I'm learning a lot from younger groups, and I'm seeing how they're confused in different ways.
我从年轻群体身上学到了很多东西，我看到他们是如何以不同的方式感到困惑的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
So I think there's a lot of age-related stereotypes that are sometimes accurate, but we don't need to necessarily subscribe to them at all times.
所以我认为有很多与年龄相关的刻板印象有时是准确的，但我们不一定总是认同它们。
And in some ways you can have also, and this is partly the motivation for my book, kind of like mentors for aging.
在某些方面，你也可以拥有，这也是我写这本书的部分动机，有点像衰老的导师。
And I think when I ask my class, "Who are some people that you really look up to who've aged well or successful aging?" A lot of it comes down to a grandparent or a parent or an aunt or an uncle.
我想，当我问我的班级时，“你们真正敬佩的人是谁，他们的年龄很好，或者成功地老龄化了？”很多都归结于祖父母、父母、阿姨或叔叔。
And that's really interesting because you share some genetic overlap with them, but the stories, the reasons are really impressive.
这真的很有趣，因为你与他们有一些基因重叠，但这些故事和原因确实令人印象深刻。
And not that they're running marathons, but like, oh, we have this recipe, or every holiday they do this, or they're still walking and doing this, and sometimes it's a public figure.
并不是说他们在跑马拉松，而是说，哦，我们有这个食谱，或者每个假期他们都会这样做，或者他们仍然在散步并这样做，有时这是一个公众人物。
But having these role models is really important, and oftentimes it is a parent.
但拥有这些榜样确实很重要，而且通常是父母。
So probably my favorite podcast that I've watched recently of yours was with your father.
所以我最近看过的你最喜欢的播客可能是和你父亲一起播客。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Right?
对吗？
Because you can see this dynamic, and you can see like, gosh, this is an older person, and this is the younger version, but they're different in so many ways.
因为你可以看到这种动态，你可以看到，天哪，这是一个年长的人，这是一个年轻的版本，但他们在很多方面都有所不同。
And some people can retire, and some people clearly can't.
有些人可以退休，有些人显然不能。
And so I don't think there's any secret to successful aging like you have to do this or that, but there's certainly some people, and I've seen it in my family, who can't retire, or they have a career shift.
所以我不认为成功变老有什么秘诀，就像你必须这样做或那样做，但肯定有一些人，我在我的家人中看到过，他们无法退休，或者他们有职业转变。
I saw my dad go from being a theoretical physics professor to being an editor of a literary arts journal, and it's like such a shift, but I think it revived him and allowed him to kind of like you've gone from being a professor to kind of more public outreach, and that keeps people going.
我看到我父亲从一名理论物理学教授变成了一名文学艺术期刊的编辑，这就像一个转变，但我认为这让他重新焕发了活力，让他有点像从一名教授转向了更多的公众宣传，这让人们继续前进。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And that can happen again at 60 or 70.
这种情况可能会在 60 岁或 70 岁时再次发生。
And so I hope there's certainly age discrimination.
所以我希望确实存在年龄歧视。
You're not going to hire a 70-year-old to run your IT department.
您不会雇用一位 70 岁的老人来管理您的 IT 部门。
But I think there are things that older adults can and want to do that will kind of lead to this sense of purpose, which is really important as you get older.
但我认为老年人可以并且想要做的一些事情会带来这种使命感，随着年龄的增长，这非常重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you map out your future?
你规划好自己的未来了吗？
Do you have a three or a five-year plan?
您有三年或五年计划吗？
I find that academics tend to operate on the three to five-year plan because grants generally are somewhere between three and five years.
我发现学术界倾向于执行三到五年计划，因为资助期限通常在三到五年之间。
That's pretty much all we can reasonably predict about where we're going to go with our ideas.
这几乎就是我们能够合理预测我们的想法将走向何方的全部内容。
We update as we discover things and so on.
我们会根据发现的情况进行更新等等。
But do you ever recall having a plan Currently, do you plan where you're going?
但是您是否记得有过计划？目前，您计划要去哪里吗？
This is just really about you-
这真的只是关于你——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but as a-
但作为一个——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as a template for people to ask themselves the same question.
作为人们问自己同样问题的模板。
I don't think I was ever sat down and said, "Listen, you want to focus on day to day, but you got to have a plan, and the plan should be put the horizon at three years-
我想我从来没有坐下来说过：“听着，你想专注于每一天，但你必须有一个计划，而这个计划应该把期限定为三年——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or five years." I sort of defaulted to that because of academics.
或者五年。”由于学术原因，我有点默认了这一点。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's very hard for me to think past five years.
我很难回想过去的五年。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
No, I think people often will say in business, too, the plan you have, and I think plans are important because they can motivate you.
不，我认为在商业中人们也经常会说，你有计划，我认为计划很重要，因为它们可以激励你。
And when I first got this job at UCLA, I was thrilled to leave the cold weather of Toronto and live on the West Coast.
当我第一次在加州大学洛杉矶分校找到这份工作时，我很高兴能够离开寒冷的多伦多，住在西海岸。
But I also said, "If it doesn't work out, let's see in three to five years." So I don't think I had this specific plan of I have to do this, but I also had a plan like, hey, I'd love to write a book that is accessible and can kind of capture the lessons I've learned.
但我也说了，如果不行的话，三五年后再看吧。所以我不认为我有这个特定的计划，我必须这样做，但我也有一个计划，比如，嘿，我很想写一本易于理解的书，并且可以捕捉我所学到的教训。
And I didn't put a timeline on that, but when I first met my wife, I told her I was really interested in doing this, and she was very encouraging.
我没有为此设定时间表，但当我第一次见到我的妻子时，我告诉她我对此非常感兴趣，她非常鼓励我。
And 10 years later, that book finally comes out.
10年后，这本书终于问世了。
So I think when you articulate plans, there's definitely research saying that you can realize them.
所以我认为当你阐明计划时，肯定有研究表明你可以实现它们。
And when other people are thinking that's something you can or should do, I think it's beneficial.
当其他人认为这是你可以或应该做的事情时，我认为这是有益的。
But yeah, in the academic world, there can be pressures to get grants and publish, but I think that can also hamper some creative outputs.
但是，是的，在学术界，可能存在获得资助和发表的压力，但我认为这也会阻碍一些创造性的产出。
I don't have a plan of like, in three to five years, I need to do this and this, and it sure would be nice to get another grant, but maybe if you don't have a grant, you can have a little more freedom and flexibility.
我没有这样的计划，在三到五年内，我需要做这个和这个，获得另一笔资助肯定会很好，但也许如果你没有资助，你可以有更多的自由和灵活性。
I'm really interested in how, it's a concern now with AI, how people are subjected to a lot of information, and a lot of this can be used for scams and fraud.
我真的很感兴趣的是，这是人工智能现在关注的一个问题，人们如何受到大量信息的影响，而其中很多信息可以用于诈骗和欺诈。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And so I'm interested in how older adults can be kind of aware of these scams that can be devastating, and how we can make the world better for older adults.
因此，我感兴趣的是老年人如何能够意识到这些可能具有毁灭性的骗局，以及我们如何为老年人创造更美好的世界。
And when I say older, it's like we're not that far away from why can that self-driving car be so appealing to a younger person but not an older person?
当我说“年纪大”时，我们似乎离这个问题并不遥远：为什么自动驾驶汽车对年轻人如此有吸引力，但对老年人却没有吸引力？
And if we can make technology more accessible to older people, it can certainly help.
如果我们能让老年人更容易接触到技术，那肯定会有所帮助。
And I think there's simple ways to do it.
我认为有一些简单的方法可以做到这一点。
Some, it starts with attitudes about how do I engage with this?
有些，首先是关于我如何参与这件事的态度？
Will it work?
它会起作用吗？
Will I break it?
我会打破它吗？
Whereas younger people will just, they get a new iPhone and there's no instruction manual.
而年轻人只会买新 iPhone，但没有使用说明书。
They're just playing around with it.
他们只是在玩弄它。
So I'm interested in that.
所以我对此很感兴趣。
I don't think that has a publication that I'm going to get out of it.
我不认为我会从中发表任何出版物。
And maybe there's a grant, maybe there's consulting, but I think it's having a broader kind of approach might be beneficial.
也许有拨款，也许有咨询，但我认为采用更广泛的方法可能会有所帮助。
So these are more abstract goals, and hopefully some of them can be realized, but it's not as tied to like when I was younger, yeah, I wanted to get tenure at UCLA, right?
所以这些都是更抽象的目标，希望其中一些目标能够实现，但这并不像我年轻时那样紧密相连，是的，我想在加州大学洛杉矶分校获得终身教职，对吗？
I was happy to have children and have a house where we could be centrally located without a long commute.
我很高兴有孩子，并拥有一所房子，我们可以位于市中心，而无需长途通勤。
So I think those were the practical goals.
所以我认为这些是实际目标。
But I think as I get older, I feel fortunate that I've achieved some of these goals that make my life more comfortable.
但我认为，随着年龄的增长，我感到很幸运，因为我已经实现了其中一些目标，使我的生活更加舒适。
But there's still things out there that I'm like, are we really ever going to know how memory works?
但我仍然想知道，我们真的能知道记忆是如何运作的吗？
Maybe, maybe not, but maybe we can make things easier to use.
也许，也许不是，但也许我们可以让事情变得更容易使用。
Or now that we know memory sort of works this way, maybe we can make this technology geared to help us in some meaningful way.
或者现在我们知道记忆是这样工作的，也许我们可以让这项技术以某种有意义的方式帮助我们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, a comment and then a question.
好吧，先评论，然后提问。
And my comment is, if anyone needs self-driving cars, it's older folks.
我的评论是，如果有人需要自动驾驶汽车，那就是老年人。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
If you look at the accident data, look at the visual data.
如果您查看事故数据，请查看视觉数据。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There are people who are, I don't want to say legally blind, but their peripheral vision is really lousy, and they're driving, and most of driving is peripheral vision.
我不想说有些人在法律上是盲人，但他们的周边视力真的很糟糕，而且他们在开车，而且大部分驾驶都是周边视力。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So for everybody's sake, but of course, very young people with new licenses, they're all- It's not a linear distribution of accidents by age.
因此，为了每个人的利益，当然，对于拥有新驾照的年轻人来说，他们都是——这不是按年龄排列的事故的线性分布。
It's a U-shaped function.
这是一个U形函数。
But the other is nested in my question about whether you set goals is the question of whether setting goals helps us stay alive.
但另一个隐藏在我关于是否设定目标的问题中的是设定目标是否有助于我们生存的问题。
I covered before some of the data on these SuperAgers, more of the neurosciences, anterior midcingulate cortex, which seems to maintain or increase volume as SuperAgers-
我之前介绍过一些关于这些超级老年人的数据，更多的神经科学，前中扣带皮层，它似乎维持或增加了超级老年人的体积-
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
age, and they hold onto their memory, et cetera.
年龄，他们保持记忆等等。
And what we understand of that structure, it's involved in pushing into friction, pushing oneself to do something that's hard or not desirable for oneself.
我们对这种结构的理解是，它涉及推动摩擦，推动自己去做一些对自己来说困难或不想要的事情。
It seems to come up on more and more episodes of the podcast.
它似乎出现在越来越多的播客剧集中。
And I think I teach neuroanatomy to medical students.
我想我向医学生教授神经解剖学。
When I started teaching neuroanatomy, we didn't know what the anterior midcingulate cortex does, but my colleague Joe Parvizi probed it with electrodes in humans, and every single one that got stimulated, they'd say, "Feels like a big storm is coming.
当我开始教授神经解剖学时，我们不知道前中扣带皮层的作用，但我的同事乔·帕尔维兹（Joe Parvizi）用人体电极对其进行了探测，每一个受到刺激的皮层都会说：“感觉就像一场大风暴即将来临。
There's a challenge.
有一个挑战。
I want to lean into it." They would-
我想投入其中。”他们会——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
kind of come up in their chair.
有点坐在他们的椅子上。
They're in a halo.
他们处于光环之中。
They're getting surgery.
他们正在接受手术。
But they would get physically and mentally activated, like, "I can take this.
但他们的身体和精神都会被激活，比如，“我能接受这个。
I can do this." And it's very clear that that's the brain structure that grows.
我能做到这一点。”很明显，这就是大脑结构的生长。
And so I feel like going after a goal, having goals, something to look forward to, I wonder whether or not this is the basic evolutionarily hardwired circuitry for if you're striving, it means you're trying to get someplace.
所以我想要追求一个目标，有目标，有一些期待，我想知道这是否是基本的进化硬连线电路，因为如果你正在努力，这意味着你正在努力到达某个地方。
If you're trying to get someplace, there's a concept of a future.
如果你想到达某个地方，就会有一个未来的概念。
If there's a concept of a future, well, then you plan to be there, or you want to leave something behind, but-
如果有一个未来的概念，那么你计划去那里，或者你想留下一些东西，但是-
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that it might activate literally this kind of will to live, and I don't want to sound mystical here, but kind of at a cellular level.
它可能会真正激活这种生存意愿，我不想在这里听起来很神秘，而是在细胞水平上。
Because when people don't have-
因为当人们没有-
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
plans, then there's really no-- You could just enjoy the smell of the roses, but that becomes-
计划，那就真的没有了——你可以只是享受玫瑰的香味，但那变成了——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a bit of a closed loop.
有点闭环。
I don't know many people, maybe monks or something, who are really tapped into something that they just want to live in the bliss of the moment constantly.
我不知道有多少人，也许是僧侣之类的人，真正热衷于某些事情，只是想不断地生活在当下的幸福之中。
A lot of life is about what comes next and trying to make that thing happen.
生活的很多内容都是关于接下来会发生什么，并努力让这件事发生。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
It's so interesting to look at cellular, and then anterior cingulate, and then superagers, and then sense of purpose.
观察细胞，然后是前扣带回，然后是超级老人，然后是使命感，这是非常有趣的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
If you look at all those different levels.
如果你看看所有这些不同的级别。
And then what we look at in a Western culture, too, is very different than some cultures that age much better than Western cultures.
我们所看到的西方文化也与一些比西方文化更古老的文化有很大不同。
And maybe there's lessons to be learned there.
也许那里有值得吸取的教训。
Because a lot of it is, like you're saying, goal-setting and motivation, but the goal is not just to live forever, it's to make the most of these moments and have this sense of purpose.
因为正如你所说，很多都是目标设定和动力，但目标不仅仅是永远活着，而是充分利用这些时刻并拥有这种使命感。
And a lot of older adults do want to have this connection to younger people or connection to a hobby or an interest, and it's not as professionally driven as it is in midlife.
许多老年人确实希望与年轻人建立这种联系，或者与一种爱好或兴趣建立联系，而且这并不像中年那样受到职业驱动。
And I think the superagers is really interesting because I've read about that and I've seen this, and these are not people who said, "I want to live forever, and I'm going to." That's not their goal.
我认为超级老人真的很有趣，因为我读过相关内容，也见过这个，而这些人并不是说“我想永远活下去，而且我会这么做。”那不是他们的目标。
And a lot of them are not people who are like, "I went to the gym four times a week." They built into their...
他们中的很多人都不会说“我每周去健身房四次”。他们建立在他们的...
And it's the same with blue zones.
蓝色区域也是如此。
It's built into their daily life of they eat well because that's the food that they enjoy and that they can find.
他们吃得好已经融入到他们的日常生活中，因为这是他们喜欢并且可以找到的食物。
They exercise, not from going to the gym, but from having to walk uphill or on uneven surfaces.
他们不是通过去健身房锻炼身体，而是通过步行上坡或在不平坦的地面上锻炼。
So I think, I don't want to say it's an American focus on goals and motivation and biohacking and longevity, but if you can build this into your daily life, it's so much easier, right?
所以我想，我不想说这是美国人对目标、动力、生物黑客和长寿的关注，但如果你能把它融入你的日常生活，那就容易多了，对吧？
And then it just becomes, I saw my father bike to work every day.
然后就变成了，我每天都看到父亲骑自行车去上班。
In fact, he wouldn't even call it work because he didn't want to make it think like it was work.
事实上，他甚至不称其为工作，因为他不想让它被认为是工作。
And I don't know why.
我不知道为什么。
I bike to work, too, in Los Angeles, which is probably not the best thing to do, but I've been able to set up my life that I bike two miles uphill to work and then two miles downhill.
我也在洛杉矶骑自行车上班，这可能不是最好的选择，但我已经能够安排自己的生活，骑车上坡两英里上班，然后下坡两英里。
It's probably, sometimes it's the best time of my day.
也许，有时这是我一天中最美好的时光。
Sometimes it's when the best ideas come to me.
有时我会想到最好的想法。
I also have to be vigilant, you know?
我也必须保持警惕，你知道吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I just think the only thing-
我只是觉得唯一的一件事——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
I do wear a helmet.
我确实戴头盔。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I only met you today, but I feel like something's coming out where I'm thinking, just having lived in LA a while, it's just doors-
我今天才见到你，但我感觉有些东西正在从我的想法中浮现出来，只是在洛杉矶生活了一段时间，这只是门-
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
cars opening.
车开。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's just the simple-
这只是简单的——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Other cities, too.
其他城市也一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
In Toronto, it's even worse.
在多伦多，情况更糟。
But I think with the superagers, it's also resilience.
但我认为对于超级老人来说，这也是韧性。
And these are people, when you look at their lives, sometimes they've had easier lives, and that can be beneficial in some ways, having wealth and health.
这些人，当你观察他们的生活时，有时他们过着更轻松的生活，这在某些方面是有益的，拥有财富和健康。
But often there's a lot of resilience.
但往往会有很大的韧性。
You've bounced back.
你已经反弹了。
We saw this during COVID.
我们在新冠疫情期间看到了这一点。
We at first thought, oh, COVID is going to be terrible for older people, right?
我们一开始想，哦，新冠病毒对老年人来说会很可怕，对吗？
Because they're going to be socially isolated.
因为他们将在社会上被孤立。
They don't know how to use technology.
他们不知道如何使用技术。
And there's certainly reasons why older adults could be more vulnerable.
当然，老年人更容易受到伤害是有原因的。
But what we found, at least at the psychological level, we did some of this research, older adults were much more resilient than younger adults.
但我们发现，至少在心理层面上，我们做了一些研究，老年人比年轻人更有弹性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And I think we've learned, younger adults went through a lot of difficult times, being socially isolated, being through probably their first major kind of situation where they can't behave the way they're normally doing it.
我认为我们已经了解到，年轻人经历了很多困难时期，被社会孤立，可能经历了他们第一次无法按照正常方式行事的主要情况。
And the older adults were the ones who were like, "Eh, I've lived through X, Y, and Z, wars, financial meltdowns, changes in family structure, deaths of close people." And older adults seem to show a lot more resilience here.
老年人会说，“呃，我经历过 X、Y 和 Z、战争、金融崩溃、家庭结构的变化、亲密之人的死亡。”老年人似乎在这里表现出更强的适应力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And when I've interviewed people for this book, it's sometimes the most interesting people lived through the Holocaust, who are like, "I appreciate every day." I think the best advice I got from one person was like, "When you're going up or down stairs, think, I'm going up or down stairs." They're very present, right?
当我为这本书采访人们时，有时是那些经历过大屠杀的最有趣的人，他们会说，“我感激每一天。”我认为我从一个人那里得到的最好建议是，“当你上下楼梯时，想想，我正在上下楼梯。”他们非常在场，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
They know, if I'm mind-wandering or doing something else, something can happen.
他们知道，如果我走神或做其他事情，就会发生一些事情。
So maybe I shouldn't be mind-wandering on my bike ride.
所以也许我不应该在骑自行车时走神。
I should be like, "That's my..."
我应该说：“那是我的……”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, but you're considerably younger and clearly you're mentally aware to be able to use that time.
嗯，但你还年轻，而且显然你在精神上意识到能够利用这段时间。
I have a friend, he was actually a guest on this podcast.
我有一个朋友，他实际上是这个播客的嘉宾。
His name is Ryan Suave.
他的名字叫瑞安·苏阿夫。
He's a trauma therapist.
他是一名创伤治疗师。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He also treats addiction in a number of people.
他还治疗许多人的毒瘾。
And he said occasionally he'll get a patient who was suicidal or tried to attempt suicide, or who attempted suicide, excuse me, because of a breakup, like in high school or in their 20s.
他说，偶尔他会遇到有自杀倾向或试图自杀的病人，或者因为分手而试图自杀的病人，比如在高中或 20 多岁的时候。
And he said at first when he would get these people coming through his clinic, he would think, "Listen, you want to sit this person down and just say, 'Look, you got your whole life ahead of you.
他说，一开始当他让这些人来他的诊所时，他会想，“听着，你想让这个人坐下来，然后说，‘看，你的一生都在等着你。
You're going to have other opportunities.
你还会有其他的机会。
There are other fish in the sea.'" But he quickly came to realize that to these, what by all arguments are still like kids, young adults, to them, it feels like a loss of the entire future because they haven't had that future yet.
海里还有其他鱼。’”但他很快意识到，对于这些无论如何都仍像孩子、年轻人的人来说，感觉就像失去了整个未来，因为他们还没有拥有那样的未来。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And when he started approaching it through that lens, he was able to be more effective clinically.
当他开始通过这个镜头来处理这个问题时，他能够在临床上更加有效。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
To just really acknowledge, like, yeah, it really feels like the whole world is coming to an end.
真正承认，就像，是的，真的感觉整个世界即将终结。
They just don't have the perspective of having-
他们只是没有这样的观点——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
had some relationship challenges and-
遇到了一些关系方面的挑战并且——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
found someone else.
找到了别人。
And so it really feels like their whole life is over.
所以真的感觉他们的一生都结束了。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And because their whole life is up to that point.
因为他们的一生都到了这一点。
It's interesting to think.
想想很有趣。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I remember thinking like, "Oh, yeah, that makes total sense when you say it." Obviously not the suicidality.
我记得我当时想，“哦，是的，当你这么说时，这是完全有道理的。”显然不是自杀。
One hopes that wouldn't be where people would go with a breakup.
人们希望这不会成为人们分手时的去向。
But as we get older, yeah, we can integrate over, oh, I've had my ups, I've had my downs.
但随着年龄的增长，是的，我们可以融入，哦，我有过成功，也有过失败。
I'm still here.
我还在这里。
I'm hard to kill, as I-
我很难被杀死，因为我——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
sometimes tell myself.
有时告诉自己。
I go, I've had some ups and downs.
我走了，我也经历过一些坎坷。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If I'm taking some heat, I just go, "Okay, well, I know one thing is I'm hard to kill."
如果我感到有些紧张，我就会说：“好吧，好吧，我知道一件事就是我很难被杀死。”
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You know?
你知道吗？
I'm not-
我不是——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And that's resilience.
这就是韧性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
And then you go, okay-
然后你就走，好吧-
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
You've been through more
你已经经历了更多
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
like, cool.
喜欢，酷。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What did I learn?
我学到了什么？
I'm just going to apply the same principles here again.
我将在这里再次应用相同的原则。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then 10 years later, you go, "I'm still here."
十年后，你会说：“我还在这里。”
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
It's just too bad you have to, in some ways, you have to go through those struggles to realize that, oh, I'm still here, or in retrospect, it was bad, but now I'm onto something else, and-
太糟糕了，在某些方面，你必须经历这些挣扎才能意识到，哦，我还在这里，或者回想起来，这很糟糕，但现在我正在做别的事情，而且-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Or in some cases, it's the best parts of life.
或者在某些情况下，这是生活中最美好的部分。
This I don't understand.
这我不明白。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And maybe this is a more memory disruption than it is accurate experience, whatever that is.
也许这更多的是一种记忆破坏，而不是准确的体验，无论是什么。
But I feel like our emotional selves integrate in the way that we compare, like things really, really sucked at a moment, which makes the moments afterwards that just don't suck a little bit-
但我觉得我们的情感自我以我们比较的方式融为一体，就像事情在某一时刻真的非常糟糕，这使得之后的时刻不再那么糟糕了——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
so much better.
好多了。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's some adaptation or habituation or whatever, and then you look back and you go, like, "Things are so good because things don't completely suck," which is a very different perspective than, I need a bunch of stuff.
有一些适应或习惯或其他什么，然后你回头看，你会说，“事情之所以如此好，是因为事情并不完全糟糕”，这与我需要一堆东西是一个非常不同的观点。
It's maybe just the absence of suck, and you can really savor that.
也许只是没有糟糕的感觉，你可以真正品味这一点。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
No, I think there's a memory component to that as well.
不，我认为这也有一个记忆成分。
And some people have studied this, looking at what's called the positivity bias, that as you get older, you're more likely to focus on positive things, positive information, positive events.
有些人对此进行了研究，着眼于所谓的积极偏见，随着年龄的增长，你更有可能关注积极的事情、积极的信息、积极的事件。
But when you're younger, you're more likely to focus on negative things.
但当你年轻时，你更有可能关注消极的事情。
And that might be for survival.
这可能是为了生存。
It might not benefit your mental health, but as you say, these are big events that happen when you're 20, 25, and you're like, "This is horrible.
它可能对你的心理健康没有好处，但正如你所说，这些都是你 20 岁、25 岁时发生的大事件，你会想，“这太可怕了。
How am I ever going to get through this?" Well, people do.
我要怎样才能度过这个难关呢？”嗯，人们确实如此。
Look at all these 70, 80-year-olds who've gone through breakups and horrible things that have happened.
看看这些 70、80 岁的人，他们都经历过分手和发生过可怕的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Financial losses.
财务损失。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Financial.
金融。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You hear about people in the tech and business world, they went from so high to so low-
你听说过科技界和商业界的人们，他们从如此高的地位到如此低的地位——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and then back again, and you just go, "Oh, most people would just be devastated." And they're like, "Well, this is the rhythm."
然后再回来，你就会说，“哦，大多数人都会被摧毁。”他们就像，“好吧，这就是节奏。”
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
And it's tough, but I think as we get older, we might focus more on the positive things to enhance our mood, and maybe that's what leads to this kind of uptick in happiness as we get older.
这很难，但我认为随着年龄的增长，我们可能会更多地关注积极的事情来增强我们的情绪，也许这就是随着年龄的增长幸福感上升的原因。
It's not just rose-colored glasses, but it's also saying, I'm going to focus on the things that are positive or be around the people that make me feel good.
这不仅仅是玫瑰色的眼镜，它还告诉我，我要关注积极的事情，或者关注那些让我感觉良好的人。
I've also heard a lot of older adults will say, "As I get older, I just don't have time for that anymore.
我还听到很多老年人会说：“随着年龄的增长，我再也没有时间做这些了。
I don't want to focus on these negative things or talking to people who bring me down."
我不想关注这些消极的事情，也不想和那些让我失望的人交谈。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
But when we're young, we're all around different people and might complain about things, and maybe that's beneficial, so you can see the bad things and rise above that.
但当我们年轻的时候，我们周围都是不同的人，可能会抱怨一些事情，也许这是有益的，所以你可以看到不好的事情并超越它。
But again, it's interesting to see these nonlinear changes.
但同样，看到这些非线性变化很有趣。
And I think there is definitely a memory component.
我认为肯定有一个记忆成分。
And getting back to that, why do older adults tell the same stories several times?
回到这个问题，为什么老年人会多次讲述同样的故事？
Well, sometimes it's a negative story, like, "I had to walk this far to school," but it usually has a positive spin to it.
嗯，有时这是一个负面的故事，比如“我不得不走这么远去学校”，但它通常有积极的一面。
And so maybe we do this is because we have this positivity bias where we want to relay this positive information, kind of to wash out some of the negative things that probably happened.
所以也许我们这样做是因为我们有这种积极的偏见，我们想传递这些积极的信息，从而消除一些可能发生的消极事情。
Some of the happier older adults I spent time with in South Florida lived through some of the worst times in Eastern Europe, let's say.
比方说，我在南佛罗里达州度过的一些快乐的老年人经历了东欧最糟糕的时期。
And I'm like, "How is this possible?" And their brain changes in ways that might make them look like they're not as sharp as they used to be, but they're telling jokes.
我想，“这怎么可能？”他们的大脑发生了变化，可能会让他们看起来不像以前那么敏锐，但他们却在讲笑话。
They're less inhibited.
他们较少受到抑制。
I learned some of the dirtiest jokes from these individuals, and I think that these people are really interesting to talk to.
我从这些人那里学到了一些最下流的笑话，我认为与这些人交谈真的很有趣。
And I love teaching at UCLA and being around students, but it's very different than talking to older adults.
我喜欢在加州大学洛杉矶分校教书，喜欢和学生在一起，但这与与老年人交谈有很大不同。
And every once in a while, we have this senior scholars program that allows older adults to take these undergraduate classes, and to me, that's probably the most enriching thing.
每隔一段时间，我们就会有一个高级学者计划，允许老年人参加这些本科课程，对我来说，这可能是最丰富的事情。
I teach a class on the psychology of aging, and here in the classroom, there's four older adults.
我教一门关于衰老心理学的课程，教室里有四个老年人。
This is a case study.
这是一个案例研究。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And this year, several of them were therapists.
今年，其中几位是治疗师。
They had a lot of information to share, but they're even told, and the part of it is that they're not supposed to ask questions.
他们有很多信息要分享，但他们甚至被告知，其中一部分是他们不应该提出问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And I thought, that's so strange.
我想，这太奇怪了。
In my class, I want them-- I assume if they're in astronomy or art history, they could be asking tons of questions, but I think this is such a great way to have this kind of intergenerational component.
在我的课堂上，我想要他们——我想如果他们研究天文学或艺术史，他们可能会问很多问题，但我认为这是拥有这种代际成分的好方法。
And a lot of the students, I tell the students that I have two tests, but I don't have a final exam.
对很多学生来说，我告诉学生我有两次考试，但没有期末考试。
And I tell them the final exam is the test of life.
我告诉他们期末考试是人生的考验。
I know it sounds a little kind of corny or hokey, but I'm like, everything you learned about aging, you're hopefully going to use in the future.
我知道这听起来有点老套或做作，但我想，你学到的关于衰老的一切，你希望将来能派上用场。
Your parents, it might not be relevant when you're 20, you're not thinking about it.
你的父母，当你20岁时，这可能不重要，你不会考虑它。
But it was the older adults in the class that they often said were-- I like to think I'm a good professor, but they learn the most from these older adults.
但他们经常说的是班上的老年人——我喜欢认为自己是一名好教授，但他们从这些老年人身上学到的东西最多。
And so I think having more of this intergenerational interaction is really important.
所以我认为更多的代际互动非常重要。
And in different cultures, that's built into the community.
在不同的文化中，这一点已融入社区。
In the Western culture, not so much.
在西方文化中，情况并非如此。
Some people grow up with their grandparents in the same household.
有些人与祖父母在同一个家庭长大。
I didn't, but the times I did have with my grandparents were very informative.
我没有，但我和祖父母在一起的时光让我受益匪浅。
And you share genetic overlap with these individuals, yet they also have wisdom and knowledge.
你与这些人有遗传重叠，但他们也有智慧和知识。
Some it is dated, but I think that can be very beneficial, being around older adults.
有些已经过时了，但我认为这对于老年人来说是非常有益的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Lingo.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 Lingo。
Lingo is an everyday wearable that tracks your glucose 24/7.
Lingo 是一款日常可穿戴设备，可 24/7 跟踪您的血糖。
Glucose drives a lot of key processes that support energy, body composition, and long-term health.
葡萄糖驱动许多支持能量、身体成分和长期健康的关键过程。
When glucose is constantly spiking and crashing, that's where we can start to see metabolic dysfunction.
当血糖不断上升和下降时，我们就可以开始看到代谢功能障碍。
And over time, that can even progress to prediabetes.
随着时间的推移，甚至可能发展为糖尿病前期。
Right now, about 115 million adults in the US have prediabetes.
目前，美国约有 1.15 亿成年人患有糖尿病前期。
Most don't know it, and a higher percentage of men have it than women do.
大多数人不知道这一点，而且男性患有此病的比例高于女性。
Often, there aren't clear symptoms of prediabetes early on, so people don't tend to look into it.
通常，糖尿病前期并没有明显的症状，因此人们往往不会对其进行调查。
But the fact is that metabolic health is shaping how your body functions every day, whether you feel it or not.
但事实是，无论您是否感觉到，代谢健康正在塑造您身体的日常运作方式。
Tracking your glucose with Lingo can help you see how food, activity, and stress impact your glucose throughout the day.
使用 Lingo 跟踪您的血糖可以帮助您了解食物、活动和压力如何影响您全天的血糖。
I personally have used Lingo, and it's been an invaluable tool for improving my metabolic health.
我个人使用过 Lingo，它是改善我的代谢健康的宝贵工具。
If you would like to try Lingo, Huberman Lab listeners in the US and UK can save 10% on a four-week plan.
如果您想尝试 Lingo，美国和英国的 Huberman Lab 听众可以在为期 4 周的计划中节省 10%。
Just visit hellolingo.com/huberman for more information.
请访问 hellolingo.com/huberman 了解更多信息。
Terms and conditions apply.
条款和条件适用。
Again, that's hellolingo.com/huberman.
再说一次，这是hellolingo.com/huberman。
There's a really cool course at Stanford Medical School that I sat in on years ago about neural regeneration, which was a topic of study for my lab for a while, and they had a young person.
几年前，我在斯坦福医学院参加了一门非常酷的课程，内容是关于神经再生的，这曾是我实验室的一个研究主题，他们有一个年轻人。
That year, it was a guy in his 20s who had a spinal cord injury.
那一年，有一个20多岁的小伙子脊髓受伤。
He came in, talked about his spinal cord injury, talked about what life was like for him before and after, how he's thinking about things.
他进来了，谈论了他的脊髓损伤，谈论了他之前和之后的生活，以及他如何思考事情。
And then on a separate lecture, there was an older individual who also had a spinal cord injury, and it was striking to see the divergence in attitude You could look at this as tragic or redeeming, depending on how you think about these things.
然后在另一场演讲中，有一位老年人也患有脊髓损伤，令人震惊的是态度上的差异。你可以将其视为悲剧或救赎，具体取决于你如何看待这些事情。
But the older gentleman was saying that he had this injury, he knows he's never going to walk again, but he's lived a lot of life, and he's done a lot of things, and here he is.
但那位年长的先生说他受了伤，他知道自己再也不能走路了，但他已经活了很多年，做了很多事，而他就在这里。
And so he's going to focus on what he can do.
所以他将专注于他能做的事情。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He's going to focus on what he can do.
他将专注于他能做的事情。
And he actually noted, this was some years ago, that he wasn't that much worse off compared to his peers, unless he let himself become a pessimist.
他实际上指出，这是几年前的事了，与同龄人相比，他的处境并没有差多少，除非他让自己成为悲观主义者。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, if he was an optimist, then he actually was still doing better than a lot of his walking, able peers.
所以，如果他是一个乐观主义者，那么他实际上仍然比许多行走、能干的同龄人做得更好。
Whereas the younger gentleman was talking about how there's just so many things in the horizon that he hasn't done that he really wanted to do, that he doesn't have access to.
而年轻的绅士却在谈论如何在地平线上有那么多他真正想做的事情他没有做，他无法接触到。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is really heartbreaking to hear.
听到这真是令人心碎。
But it was a very honest discussion, and this was, of course, mainly focused on the biology and limitations of biology to try and overcome regeneration.
但这是一次非常诚实的讨论，当然，主要集中在生物学和生物学的局限性上，以尝试克服再生。
But they brought these people in because they really wanted to highlight the differences in terms of patient need and-
但他们引入这些人是因为他们真的想强调患者需求方面的差异，并且-
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Hmm
嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I thought this comes to mind now in this conversation, like-
我想在这次谈话中我现在会想到这一点，就像-
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I think if you accrue enough experiences, good and bad, we kind of bucket list life.
我认为，如果你积累了足够的经验，无论好坏，我们的生活就可以列入遗愿清单。
We're like, "Okay, I did this, and I did that, and maybe I would've liked more of that, but I can't do that anymore, and-"
我们就像，“好吧，我做了这个，我做了那个，也许我会喜欢更多，但我不能再这样做了，而且——”
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
..."I definitely didn't want more of that."
……“我绝对不想再有这样的事了。”
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We can kind of bucket list life.
我们可以列出人生愿望清单。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I never had a bucket list growing up.
我的成长过程中从来没有一个愿望清单。
It would've been very useful.
这会非常有用。
Sit down, and at any age, I guess, and just write out what are the things you absolutely don't want to leave this life not having done, and try and make those happen.
我想，无论在什么年龄，坐下来，写下哪些事情是你绝对不想在没有完成的情况下离开此生的，并尝试让这些事情发生。
Because God forbid, if you have one of these injuries, or you stroke out and die, or have a heart attack, not to sound morbid, but then you've done the things.
因为上帝禁止，如果你有这些伤害之一，或者你中风死亡，或者心脏病发作，不要听起来病态，但你已经做了这些事情。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think that's the real tragedy of when people are limited early on, and I don't know what became of the younger guy.
我认为这才是真正的悲剧，人们在早期就受到限制，我不知道年轻人后来怎么样了。
Hopefully, he figured it out, because I know a lot of people, because of that work, that are blind or paralyzed, who live very enriched lives with families and all that.
希望他能明白这一点，因为我认识很多人，因为这项工作而失明或瘫痪，但他们与家人一起过着非常丰富的生活。
But it's curious.
但这很好奇。
I didn't think we'd get to the meaning of life here or purpose in life, but we should probably plan and carry out on those plans, and not just live by default.
我不认为我们会在这里找到生命的意义或生命的目的，但我们应该计划并执行这些计划，而不仅仅是默认地生活。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wait till we're older, and then try and figure out how we can go longer with a little less pain, and a few more memories.
等我们长大了，然后试着想办法怎样才能活得更长久，少一点痛苦，多一些回忆。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
It's an interesting case study when you compare those two individuals and then say, "What do you want to get out of life?" And it's kind of a big picture question.
当你比较这两个人然后问“你想从生活中得到什么？”时，这是一个有趣的案例研究。这是一个大问题。
But a lot of older adults will say they have pretty good life satisfaction, happiness, life satisfaction could be similar and related.
但很多老年人会说他们有很好的生活满意度、幸福感、生活满意度可能是相似且相关的。
And again, it's the midlife people who seem to be lacking.
再说一遍，中年人似乎缺乏这种能力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And I don't know if we're at that stage, but I feel like maybe I'm on the uptick.
我不知道我们是否正处于那个阶段，但我觉得我可能正在上升。
I don't know if I have a bucket list, but I certainly would like to do more things like, "Hey, I really enjoyed that trip to Sedona, Arizona.
我不知道我是否有一个愿望清单，但我当然想做更多的事情，比如，“嘿，我真的很喜欢去亚利桑那州塞多纳的那次旅行。
I'd like to do that again."
我想再做一次。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sedona's amazing.
塞多纳太棒了。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Amazing.
太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I just went for the first time.
我刚刚第一次去。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
It's a-
这是一个——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, my girlfriend and I went out there, and we were like-
是的，我和我女朋友出去了，我们就像——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
"This place is awesome."
“这个地方太棒了。”
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
It's awesome.
太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's so beautiful.
真是太漂亮了。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The air feels so good.
空气感觉真好。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The light is amazing.
光线太棒了。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And I'd definitely go back.
我肯定会回去。
My son and I climbed up rocks that we-
我和我儿子爬上岩石，我们-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, you're a climber.
哦，你是一名登山者。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Well, I'm not a climber.
好吧，我不是登山者。
I climbed then.
我当时就爬了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
But we went there five years ago when he was too young to do that.
但我们五年前去了那里，当时他还太年轻，无法做到这一点。
He wanted to go back, and I was like, "These are the sorts of moments I really enjoy." And it doesn't necessarily have to be Sedona.
他想回去，我当时想，“这些都是我真正喜欢的时刻。”而且不一定非得是塞多纳。
You can go up the coast here in California and get it.
你可以到加利福尼亚州的海岸去得到它。
So, I feel like those are the moments that I'm like, I'm not sure whether it has to be in Costa Rica or Matador Beach, but I feel like those are the moments that I really enjoy.
所以，我觉得这些都是我喜欢的时刻，我不确定是否必须在哥斯达黎加或斗牛士海滩，但我觉得这些是我真正喜欢的时刻。
Before it was like, "Yeah, I want to fly an airplane.
之前就像是，“是的，我想开飞机。
That would be really cool."
那真是太酷了。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
But I have friends who fly airplanes, and I'm like, "You know, I have a family now.
但我有开飞机的朋友，我想，“你知道，我现在有一个家庭了。
I don't need to fly an airplane anymore."
我不再需要开飞机了。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Price for it, yeah.
就它的价格来说，是的。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
I think we look at these, maybe I shouldn't be riding my bike either in LA, but I think we start to look at what really captures you and matters.
我想我们看看这些，也许我也不应该在洛杉矶骑自行车，但我想我们开始看看什么真正吸引了你并且重要。
And some are even some simple hobbies.
有的甚至是一些简单的爱好。
We were talking about drawing earlier.
我们之前讨论过绘画。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Something I wouldn't have time for when I was 20 or 30.
当我 20 岁或 30 岁的时候，我不会有时间做这些事。
I could be spending that time programming a computer or writing something.
我可能会把这些时间花在电脑编程或写东西上。
And now those are very important moments and times that I enjoy.
现在这些都是我喜欢的非常重要的时刻和时刻。
So yeah, having a sense of purpose, I think sharing information.
所以，是的，有目标感，我认为共享信息。
A lot of older adults will say it's really nice to be a mentor.
很多老年人会说成为导师真的很好。
They don't want to go back and go through the grunt work of their job, but they'd love to share experiences or be an educator.
他们不想回去继续繁重的工作，但他们愿意分享经验或成为一名教育家。
And you see big benefits for older adults who volunteer.
您会看到志愿服务对老年人有很大的好处。
Again, it's correlational, but older adults who are engaged in some sort of generativity, like influencing the next generation, feel very connected and useful.
再说一遍，这是相关的，但是从事某种生育活动的老年人，比如影响下一代，会感到非常有联系和有用。
And that's something some older adults will say is, "I'm retired, but I still feel like I'm useful."
一些老年人会说，“我退休了，但我仍然觉得自己有用。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And I think, certainly.
我认为，当然。
That'll be us, God willing, one day, that we'll be older and be like, "Well, what are we supposed to do now?"
上帝保佑，有一天，我们会长大，然后会想：“好吧，我们现在应该做什么？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe that's what grandkids are about.
也许这就是孙子的意义。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Perhaps, yeah.
也许，是的。
The connection.
连接。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because then you can be really useful to-
因为这样你就能真正有用到——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
almost everyone in a family has some unique skill set they can contribute.
几乎家庭中的每个人都拥有一些可以贡献的独特技能。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like my stepdad is a really impressive carpenter and with tools, and he built my niece's dollhouses when she was younger.
就像我的继父是一个非常令人印象深刻的木匠和工具，他在我侄女年轻的时候建造了她的玩具屋。
If there's something to fix-
如果有什么需要解决的话——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
he's the man.
他就是那个男人。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or something to build.
或者要建造一些东西。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
His tool shed is insane.
他的工具棚太疯狂了。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's incredible.
太不可思议了。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
I think grandchildren, it's family.
我认为孙子，就是家人。
People will often say when they're close to their end of life, what were the most important things, and they'll say family rituals.
人们经常会说，当他们接近生命的尽头时，什么是最重要的事情，他们会说家庭仪式。
So, there's Thanksgiving or Passover when everyone got together and got to doing something.
因此，感恩节或逾越节是每个人聚在一起做某事的时候。
And so those are some very important memories, and I think if you realize you can also influence the next generation in a meaningful way.
所以这些都是一些非常重要的记忆，我认为如果你意识到你也可以以有意义的方式影响下一代。
I think some research, again, it's correlational, shows that people who spend five hours a week with their grandchildren have improved memory.
我认为一些研究表明，每周花五个小时与孙辈在一起的人的记忆力有所改善，这是相关的。
So, we don't know if it's causal, but it's interesting that those who spend more than 20 hours a week don't show this benefit.
所以，我们不知道这是否是因果关系，但有趣的是，那些每周花费超过 20 小时的人并没有表现出这种好处。
In fact, might show the opposite.
事实上，情况可能恰恰相反。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're exhausted.
他们已经筋疲力尽了。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
They're exhausted, or they're in an unfortunate situation where they're forced into childcare.
他们精疲力尽，或者处于被迫托儿所的不幸境地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got you.
明白你了。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
There's a single parent-
有一个单亲父母——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
...
...
or someone's incarcerated.
或者有人被监禁。
So it's interesting to get that insight that, yes, being around younger people or doing some meaningful interaction, whether it's mentoring, whether it's grandchildren, can be-- And I think it's bidirectional.
因此，获得这样的见解是很有趣的，是的，与年轻人在一起或进行一些有意义的互动，无论是指导，无论是孙辈，都可以——而且我认为这是双向的。
That the children learn from it.
让孩子们从中学习。
I didn't spend a lot of time with my grandparents, but I have very vivid memories of one grandfather showing me how you can clean a penny in Coca-Cola.
我和祖父母在一起的时间不多，但我对一位祖父向我展示如何清洗可口可乐中的一分钱有非常清晰的记忆。
That's like science, and it was like, "That's crazy.
这就像科学，就像，“这太疯狂了。
Should I be drinking this?" There's all sorts of questions I had.
我应该喝这个吗？”我有各种各样的问题。
And so I think that sort of interaction can be very useful for the grandparent and the grandchild, so...
所以我认为这种互动对于祖父母和孙子女来说非常有用，所以......
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think about what really enriches one's life, in addition to deliberately trying to build memories.
我思考除了刻意地建立记忆之外，什么才能真正丰富一个人的生活。
The decision to not fly planes, but maybe to get out to Sedona or Matador or Big Sur or something like that.
决定不坐飞机，但也许会去塞多纳、斗牛士或大苏尔或类似的地方。
Yosemite.
优胜美地。
I'm putting a strong vote for Yosemite.
我强烈投票给优胜美地。
You want to have an amazing experience in life?
您想在生活中拥有一次奇妙的经历吗？
It's very low cost.
成本非常低。
If you can get yourself to Yosemite, drive up to the high country and hike Clouds Rest.
如果您可以前往约塞米蒂国家公园，可以驾车前往高地，徒步前往云歇地 (Clouds Rest)。
It's the-
这是——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's the best thing-
这是最好的事情——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
All right
好吧
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you'll ever do.
你会做的。
But-
但是——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
That's on my bucket list there, yeah
那在我的愿望清单上，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
get there early because you'll be coming down in the dark if you don't.
早点到那里，否则你就会天黑下来。
And bring water, because there's no water along the way.
还要带水，因为一路上没有水。
Amazing place.
很棒的地方。
I'm putting a big plug for national parks because I love Yosemite.
我大力支持国家公园建设，因为我喜欢优胜美地。
The discussion you had with Wooden, you said the two takeaways that he offered were love and balance, and then ironically, he got harmed and eventually died from a fall because his pride got in the way.
你和伍登的讨论中，你说他提供的两个要点是爱和平衡，然后讽刺的是，他受伤了，最终因为他的骄傲而摔倒而死。
Was there anything else in that conversation that didn't get into your book or that maybe was more subtle that you think about?
在那次谈话中是否还有其他事情没有进入你的书，或者可能比你想象的更微妙？
If not, no big deal.
如果没有，也没什么大不了的。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
First of all, it wasn't the fall that led to his death.
首先，导致他死亡的不是坠落。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
He had a fall.
他摔倒了。
He didn't press his leg.
他没有压他的腿。
He was resilient.
他很有弹性。
He bounced back.
他弹回来了。
And eventually, I think nearly 99 is when he passed away, so several years after the fall.
最终，我认为他去世的时候已经快 99 岁了，也就是堕落之后的几年。
That was such an inspiring interview, and I remember when I first got my job at UCLA.
那是一次非常鼓舞人心的采访，我还记得我第一次在加州大学洛杉矶分校找到工作时的情景。
Growing up in Canada, I'll admit the reason I knew UCLA was the basketball team and the football team.
我在加拿大长大，我承认我知道加州大学洛杉矶分校的原因是篮球队和橄榄球队。
I remember watching the Rose Bowl.
我记得看过玫瑰碗比赛。
It's-
这是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, many people throughout the world think that UCLA is a basketball team.
好吧，全世界很多人都认为加州大学洛杉矶分校是一支篮球队。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not sure that they know that-
我不确定他们是否知道——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
And they've had their ups and downs
他们也经历过起起落落
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
there's a school there.
那里有一所学校。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
But I also thought, gosh, that place sure looks nice in the winter.
但我也想，天哪，那个地方冬天看起来确实不错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And so I was thankful to be connected to Coach Wooden, who actually used to lecture in a leadership class once a year.
因此，我很高兴能与伍登教练取得联系，他实际上每年都会在领导力课程上讲课。
And he was very interested in serving as a coach, but also as a teacher.
他对担任教练和教师非常感兴趣。
So I think this sort of generativity, he was so kind and thoughtful, and then you come into his two-bedroom condo in Encino.
所以我认为这种创造力，他是如此善良和体贴，然后你走进他在恩西诺的两居室公寓。
This is not how a famous basketball coach would live now.
这不是一个著名篮球教练现在的生活。
And he had no problem with that.
他对此没有任何问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He wasn't interested in wealth or anything like that.
他对财富之类的东西不感兴趣。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
I think partly he didn't have and-
我认为部分他没有并且-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
...
...
led a very fulfilling life in the absence of that.
在没有这些的情况下，我过着非常充实的生活。
Whereas now, you see in professional sports and all, the wealth can lead to all sorts of problems.
而现在，你在职业体育运动中看到，财富可能会导致各种各样的问题。
But-
但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
...
...
so I was impressed with that and just all the pride he had and sharing the love and balance quote, I thought was helpful.
所以我对此印象深刻，他所拥有的所有自豪感以及分享爱与平衡的名言，我认为都是有帮助的。
And I tried to distill it in the book to capture not just what Wooden said, but others, that what I call the ABCs of successful aging.
我试图在书中提炼出它，不仅要捕捉伍登所说的话，还要捕捉其他内容，即我所说的成功老龄化的ABC。
It's kind of an easier way to...
这是一种更简单的方法...
And A is an attitude, having a positive attitude about what can happen as you get older.
A 是一种态度，对随着年龄的增长可能发生的事情抱有积极的态度。
And actually, more recent research shows that those who have a positive attitude live longer, are less likely to develop dementia, and so it's probably maybe less stress, better behavior.
事实上，最近的研究表明，那些拥有积极态度的人寿命更长，患痴呆症的可能性更小，因此可能压力更小，行为更好。
But more recent research shows that if you have a more negative attitude overall of what can happen as you get older, but a more positive attitude about what you can do, your own personal kind of agency over the process, that leads to a longer life.
但最近的研究表明，如果你对随着年龄的增长可能发生的事情持更消极的态度，但对你能做的事情持更积极的态度，在这个过程中你自己的个人代理，这会导致更长的寿命。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's that friction again.
又是这样的摩擦。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
It's the friction.
这就是摩擦力。
It's the balance.
这就是平衡。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's something about that.
确实有这样的事。
You don't want it-
你不想要它-
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
things too easy.
事情太容易了。
You don't want them too hard.
你不希望它们太难。
Like-
就像-
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
landscape too easy or too hard.
风景太容易或太难。
Again and again, I've just been tracking during our conversation.
一次又一次，我一直在我们的谈话中进行追踪。
It's the delta.
这是三角洲。
It's the difference between where you're at versus where you'd like to be-
这就是你现在所处的位置与你想要达到的位置之间的差异——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and not letting that turn you into a cynic or a curmudgeon, but like-
不要让这让你变得愤世嫉俗或脾气暴躁，而是——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but feeling that friction.
但感觉到那种摩擦。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We can't just kick our feet up and-
我们不能只是抬起脚然后-
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
all the time.
一直。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Right.
对。
And I think if you notice, look, bad things can happen as you get older, but I'm going to have to rise above it by doing these things.
我想如果你注意到的话，看，随着年龄的增长，不好的事情可能会发生，但我必须通过做这些事情来超越它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
That's the adapt component.
这就是适应组件。
So, attitudes, but also adapting, because a lot are not going to have an easy time.
所以，态度，但也要适应，因为很多人都不会过得轻松。
And a lot of the older adults I've talked to said, "I've had to adapt to changes," whether it's physical, whether it's mental.
我采访过的很多老年人都说，“我必须适应变化”，无论是身体上的还是精神上的。
So I think I may call A adapt, and also attitude is very psychological.
所以我觉得我可以叫A适应，而且态度也很心理化。
And then B is balance, which is what we talked about already.
然后B是平衡，这就是我们已经讨论过的。
These superagers are not extremists.
这些超级老人并不是极端分子。
They're not running marathons and eating only blueberries.
他们不跑马拉松，也不只吃蓝莓。
I think it's usually something like, "Yeah, I just do this or that, and it works out."
我认为通常是这样的：“是的，我只是做了这个或那个，然后就成功了。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That suggests some sort of genetic component.
这表明存在某种遗传成分。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
I think there is a genetic component, but I also think it's not the extreme.
我认为有遗传因素，但我也认为这并不是极端的。
It's not like you need four cups of coffee a day to prevent dementia.
这并不是说您需要每天喝四杯咖啡来预防痴呆症。
It's probably having some level of balance and some genetic component.
它可能具有某种程度的平衡和某些遗传成分。
But, and then C is often overlooked from a psychological standpoint is connection.
但是，从心理学的角度来看，C经常被忽视，那就是联系。
And that's also what Wooden was emphasizing.
这也是伍登所强调的。
Be around the people you love, do the things you love.
和你爱的人在一起，做你爱的事。
Social connection, I think we learned during COVID, all of a sudden, people were like, "Oh my gosh, I can't be around people," or, "I can see them on Zoom, but it's different." All of a sudden, it hits home that social connection is important.
社交联系，我想我们在新冠疫情期间了解到，突然间，人们会说，“天哪，我不能和人在一起”，或者“我可以在 Zoom 上看到他们，但这是不同的。”突然间，人们意识到社交联系的重要性。
Now, it's different for different people, how they want to engage in it.
现在，对于不同的人来说，他们想要如何参与其中是不同的。
But I think that's often lost, sadly, because of technology.
但可悲的是，我认为由于技术的原因，这一点经常消失。
You can have tons of Facebook friends, but how many friends could you call up once a week to ask how their day is or their week has gone is probably limited.
你可以拥有大量的 Facebook 好友，但你每周可以给多少朋友打电话询问他们今天过得怎么样或一周过得怎么样，这可能是有限的。
And as we get older, our social circle tends to shrink.
随着年龄的增长，我们的社交圈子往往会缩小。
People move away, people pass away.
人们离开，人们逝去。
But some research shows the quality of those fewer relationships can actually be improved.
但一些研究表明，这些较少的关系的质量实际上可以得到改善。
And I think that's, again, an interesting kind of nonlinear change that when we're young, we know lots of people, and we're interacting a lot in a social way.
我认为这又是一种有趣的非线性变化，当我们年轻时，我们认识很多人，并且我们以社交方式进行很多互动。
But as we get older, it's those more meaningful kind of relationships that are important.
但随着年龄的增长，那些更有意义的关系才变得重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The connection piece comes up again and again.
连接件一次又一次地出现。
I think as we talk about all this, it must be kind of daunting for people in their 20s and 30s now.
我想当我们谈论这一切时，对于现在20多岁和30多岁的人来说一定有点令人畏惧。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because there's all this stuff that you can do to make-
因为你可以做所有这些东西-
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
yourself better that, frankly, what we weren't aware of back when.
坦率地说，我们当时并没有意识到这一点。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's like, oh, I like running, so I ran.
就像，哦，我喜欢跑步，所以我就跑了。
I wanted to get stronger, so I lifted weights.
我想变得更强壮，所以我举重。
I wanted a PhD in neuroscience, so I did it.
我想获得神经科学博士学位，所以我就这么做了。
I just sort of followed my interest.
我只是跟随我的兴趣。
There wasn't this idea that you could fundamentally transform how long you were going to live or how great you were going to feel at a given age.
没有人认为你可以从根本上改变你的寿命，或者你在特定年龄的感觉有多好。
But, so I kind of wonder if it's both good and bad.
但是，所以我有点想知道这是好事还是坏事。
I don't want to undercut the idea that we can strive for those things, but I also don't want to promote the idea that we should all be thinking about what it's going to be like when we're 70.
我不想削弱我们可以为这些事情而努力的想法，但我也不想宣扬这样的想法：我们都应该思考我们70岁时会是什么样子。
I mean, the unit of life being the day, I think is-
我的意思是，生命的单位是天，我认为是——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
true in the circadian sense.
从昼夜节律的意义上来说是正确的。
Our biology resets every 24 hours.
我们的生理机能每 24 小时重置一次。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Having recently pulled the first all-nighter in a while to-
最近一段时间以来第一次熬夜——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
finish some book edits, last-minute little nip-tuck stuff with my producer and friend Rob, we legitimately pushed through.
完成一些书籍编辑工作，和我的制作人兼朋友罗布一起完成最后一刻的小工作，我们合法地完成了任务。
It was like, "It's midnight.
就像是，“现在是半夜了。
Okay, we'll go to 2:00." And then at 2:00 it was like, then we're like, "Looks like we're going through." And been a while.
好吧，我们就去 2:00。”然后在 2:00 的时候，我们就说，“看起来我们正在经历。”已经有一段时间了。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was fun to just be able, as much as I talk about the benefits of sleep-
正如我谈论睡眠的好处一样，能够做到这一点很有趣-
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's like, that was cool.
就像，那很酷。
I haven't done that in a while.
我已经有一段时间没有这样做了。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Still got it.
还是明白了。
It hurt the next day.
第二天就疼了。
We get a nap, next day you sleep a little longer.
我们小睡一下，第二天你再睡一会儿。
You're not going to...
你不会...
Did I shorten my life?
我缩短了生命吗？
I don't know.
我不知道。
I feel like I got, I'll remember that.
我感觉我得到了，我会记住的。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
You'll remember it-
你会记住的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
...
...
and you're contributing to something that you think is important.
并且您正在为您认为重要的事情做出贡献。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
This is a book.
这是一本书。
This is something that you want to make sure it's accurate and thoughtful and I think when you work hard at something, it does make you feel good.
这是你想要确保它准确且周到的事情，我认为当你在某件事上努力工作时，它确实会让你感觉良好。
You're probably getting a lot of neurotransmitter reward mechanism kicking in.
你可能会启动很多神经递质奖励机制。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it was so much fun.
是的，太有趣了。
This is why I always say, the occasional late night out or all-nighter, as long as it's for the right reasons.
这就是为什么我总是说，偶尔深夜外出或通宵达旦，只要是出于正确的原因。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I wish that for people.
我希望人们也能这样。
Occasional.
偶然。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As you can tell, I'm really intrigued by this idea that there's something about pushing ourselves and, as Wooden pointed out, there's also something about coming off the gas and being able to lean back and forth into those things.
正如你所见，我对这个想法非常感兴趣，即推动自己是有道理的，正如伍登指出的那样，摆脱困境并能够在这些事情上来回倾斜也是有道理的。
Life is an oscillation.
生命是一种振荡。
It's a circadian oscillation, and then it's like this push, push, push, and then being able to come off the gas.
这是昼夜节律的振荡，然后就像这样用力、用力、用力，然后就能摆脱气体。
And-
还有——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's an art, it's not a science.
这是一门艺术，而不是一门科学。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's science there-
这里面有科学——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but it's not trivial.
但这并不是微不足道的。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it actually raises this question for me.
它实际上向我提出了这个问题。
You're an interesting guy.
你是个有趣的人。
You're young, in my opinion, but I'm 50 also.
在我看来你很年轻，但我也已经50岁了。
So you study memory, but you seem to have a genuine interest and care for the older generation, like how are we going to take care of them in the AI age?
所以你研究记忆，但你似乎对老一代人有真正的兴趣和关心，比如在人工智能时代我们如何照顾他们？
How are we going to take care of them?
我们要如何照顾他们？
Is that something that's always been intrinsic to you?
这是你一直以来固有的东西吗？
I don't want this to sound glib, but what's the obsession with older folks?
我不想让这听起来很油腔滑调，但是对老年人的痴迷是什么呢？
It's cool.
这很酷。
It's very nurturing, but it's not typical.
这非常有教养，但并不典型。
Most people aren't thinking about the older generation.
大多数人并没有想到老一辈。
It's natural for us as a species to think about the younger generation, right?
作为一个物种，我们很自然地会想到年轻一代，对吧？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We just have a, what I think is a healthy reflex to like, "How can we make things better for kids-
我认为我们只是有一种健康的本能反应，喜欢“我们怎样才能让孩子们的生活变得更好——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that are coming up?" Young people, make it better.
那些即将到来的事情？”年轻人，让自己变得更好吧。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But you're unique in this way.
但你在这方面是独一无二的。
You study memory-
你研究记忆——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the age cohort that-
在这个年龄段中——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
has arguably some of the worst memory.
可以说有一些最糟糕的记忆力。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
I think it's maybe growing up around a lot of older adults.
我想这可能是在很多老年人的周围长大的。
Again, I grew up in Canada partly, but also in Florida, and I was around a lot of very interesting older people, kind of in their prime of their retirement life, who'd spend a lot of time with me.
再说一次，我有一部分是在加拿大长大的，但也是在佛罗里达长大的，我周围有很多非常有趣的老年人，他们正处于退休生活的黄金时期，他们会花很多时间和我在一起。
And I have aging parents.
而且我还有年迈的父母。
I've seen that.
我见过那个。
So I don't know if it's also a respect for older adults, but it's also, maybe it's, I don't want to say egocentric, but in a good way, if we're lucky, we're going to be there one day.
所以我不知道这是否也是对老年人的尊重，但这也是，也许是，我不想说以自我为中心，但以一种好的方式，如果我们幸运的话，有一天我们会到达那里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you're making the discoveries that you will yourself benefit from.
因此，您正在做出的发现将使您自己受益。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
I hope so.
我希望如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, that's true.
不，确实如此。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
I hope so.
我希望如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And I think it's an investment.
我认为这是一项投资。
We invest a lot in our children, and that's incredibly important-
我们在孩子身上投入了大量资金，这一点非常重要——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure
当然可以
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
...
...
to be nurturing parents and have government that can help with education.
成为养育父母并拥有可以帮助教育的政府。
But I think we look the other way once people are, well, on Social Security or you're retired and I think culturally there's other cultures that treat older adults with more respect.
但我认为，一旦人们享受社会保障或退休，我们就会采取不同的方式，而且我认为从文化上看，还有其他文化更尊重老年人。
And so I don't know what the reason is, and I teach a class on aging at UCLA.
所以我不知道原因是什么，我在加州大学洛杉矶分校教授一门关于衰老的课程。
It's a popular class, but it's not as popular as the class on relationships or things that I think younger people would be interested in.
这是一门很受欢迎的课程，但它不像关于人际关系或我认为年轻人会感兴趣的事情的课程那么受欢迎。
But oftentimes after students take it, they say, "I never thought I'd be interested in aging, but I'm actually, now that I think about it, it's really interesting to see how my parents aged." And I'm like, "Well, give yourself 30 or 40 years, and I hope you'll remember something from this class." And I think maybe that's my early exposure made me think, this is really kind of an interesting thing that happens.
但学生们常常在参加完课程后说：“我从来没有想过我会对衰老感兴趣，但实际上，现在我想起来，看到我的父母如何变老真的很有趣。”我想，“好吧，给自己 30 或 40 年的时间，我希望你能记住这堂课的一些东西。”我想也许是我早期的经历让我觉得，这确实是一件有趣的事情。
And I remember, with my grandparents, they would forget, get my name confused with my brother's name, but they could remember the price of bananas.
我记得，和我的祖父母在一起，他们会忘记，把我的名字和我兄弟的名字混淆，但他们可以记住香蕉的价格。
Right?
正确的？
So how are they remembering this very detailed information versus forgetting things that are presumably important?
那么他们如何记住这些非常详细的信息而不是忘记可能重要的事情呢？
And I think it comes down to focus.
我认为这归根结底在于专注。
It comes down to the era you grew up in.
这取决于你成长的时代。
And so I don't see it as very different than older adults are not different than younger adults, and that they're like, "That's the old and this is the new," but it's this progressive change.
所以我不认为这与老年人和年轻人有什么不同，他们会说，“这是旧的，这是新的”，但这是一种渐进的变化。
And in some ways, I can see in my own children, I think, what are they going to be like when they're 80?
在某些方面，我可以从我自己的孩子身上看到，他们 80 岁时会是什么样子？
What habits are going to stay with them, and what things might change?
哪些习惯会保留下来，哪些事情可能会改变？
And I think in some ways, there's a lot of things that you could see it kind of as a seed that just gets more pronounced as we get older, but also that we're better at regulating emotions and doing things that when we're young, we're not so good at.
我认为在某些方面，有很多事情你可以将其视为种子，随着年龄的增长，它会变得更加明显，而且我们更擅长调节情绪，做一些我们年轻时不擅长的事情。
And we often think of like, how can we make older people better by making them look younger?
我们经常想，如何才能让老年人看起来更年轻，从而让他们变得更好？
And in fact, I sometimes think, gosh, how could we instill some of that, not just the wisdom, but make younger people feel like older people in some ways, kind of from a psychological standpoint, better at regulating emotions, less likely to take risks.
事实上，我有时会想，天哪，我们如何才能灌输一些这样的东西，不仅仅是智慧，而且让年轻人在某些方面感觉像老年人，从心理学的角度来看，更好地调节情绪，不太愿意冒险。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's the whole, if I knew then what I know now.
如果我当时知道我现在所知道的话，那就是全部了。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's interesting that Wooden said that the two most important words in life are love and balance.
有趣的是，伍登说，生命中最重要的两个词是爱和平衡。
I have a friend who's a psychologist, and he said the two most dangerous words in the English language are if and only-
我有一个心理学家朋友，他说英语中最危险的两个词是如果且仅——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Oh
哦
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and especially when they're next to each other.
尤其是当他们彼此相邻时。
And it's interesting to watch my mind.
观察我的想法很有趣。
I'm just going to like, if only this, or if only that.
我只是会喜欢，如果只是这个，或者如果只是那个。
It's like-
这就像——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
we can default there and it's-
我们可以在那里默认，它是-
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's dreadfully Useless-
这是非常无用的-
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and maybe even destructive.
甚至可能具有破坏性。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So-
所以——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I encourage myself to watch out for the "if only" thinking.
我鼓励自己提防“要是这样就好了”的想法。
It's maybe even deadly.
这甚至可能是致命的。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
We run a lot of simulations in our brain like, what if I did this, or what if I didn't do that?
我们在大脑中进行了很多模拟，例如，如果我这样做会怎样，或者如果我不这样做会怎样？
Or what if I met this person?
或者如果我遇到这个人怎么办？
Or what if I took this job?
或者如果我接受这份工作怎么办？
And I think at some point, when you're young, maybe that's helpful, trying to figure out what would work out best.
我认为在某些时候，当你年轻的时候，尝试找出最有效的方法也许会有所帮助。
But as you're older, it's like, well, these things have happened, and I've learned from them.
但随着年龄的增长，就像，好吧，这些事情已经发生了，我已经从中吸取了教训。
Um, and yeah, I think it's really interesting to think of that as what if?
嗯，是的，我认为将其视为“假设”真的很有趣？
What if this happened?
如果发生这种情况怎么办？
And you can get yourself into a lot of trouble thinking, what if that happens?
你可能会陷入很多麻烦，思考如果发生这种情况怎么办？
And what if...
如果...
The world can be an incredibly dreary place-
世界可能是一个令人难以置信的沉闷的地方——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
...
...
when you think of it that way.
当你这样想的时候。
But it's also amazing to see, and maybe that's why I'm interested in older adults, just like, look at these people who are 70, 80, 90.
但看到这一点也很令人惊奇，也许这就是为什么我对老年人感兴趣，就像看看这些 70、80、90 岁的人。
I'm not just looking at the 90-year-olds who are doing incredible things.
我不仅仅关注那些正在做着令人难以置信的事情的 90 岁老人。
I'm looking at the 90-year-olds who are perhaps at peace with themselves, feel comfortable talking about things that they want to talk about.
我看到的90岁老人也许内心平静，可以轻松地谈论他们想谈论的事情。
I enjoyed your father's podcast partly because I'm like, here's a guy who's not afraid of saying some things, and maybe-
我喜欢你父亲的播客，部分原因是我想，这是一个不害怕说一些话的人，也许——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I appreciate that you said that
我很感激你这么说
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
...
...
maybe it's not always what people would expect.
也许这并不总是人们所期望的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, he has an irreverence to him.
不，他对他有一种不敬。
I mean, he's very polite and believes in etiquette, but he doesn't let people constrain him.
我的意思是，他很有礼貌，很相信礼仪，但他不让人约束他。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
And you know what?
你知道吗？
I just found that a lot of these podcasts have a lot of science in them, but he had a lot of things that made me think, gosh, that's interesting.
我刚刚发现很多播客都有很多科学知识，但他有很多东西让我觉得，天哪，这很有趣。
Could we test that?
我们可以测试一下吗？
Is that really how...
真的是这样吗...
Curiosity, one of our more recent studies, has shown that as we get older, memory does decline in many ways.
好奇心是我们最近的一项研究，它表明，随着年龄的增长，记忆力确实会在很多方面下降。
But older adults can remember prices, let's say.
但比方说，老年人可以记住价格。
That makes sense.
这是有道理的。
So, the bananas being $2.99.
所以，香蕉的价格是 2.99 美元。
But as soon as we say bananas are $18.49, that just doesn't make sense.
但一旦我们说香蕉是 18.49 美元，那就没有道理了。
And older adults quickly forget that, and that's something we were talking about, the benefit of forgetting things that just don't fit your schemas, that just don't make sense.
老年人很快就会忘记这一点，这就是我们正在谈论的事情，忘记那些不符合你的模式、毫无意义的事情的好处。
With younger adults, a lot of undergraduates will be like, "I highlighted 80% of the textbook.
对于年轻人来说，很多本科生都会说，“我突出显示了教科书的 80%。
Why did I get a C on the exam?" It's this inability to kind of selectively focus on what's important.
为什么我考试得了C？”就是无法选择性地关注重要的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And I've seen that even in myself.
我什至在我自己身上也看到了这一点。
When I was younger, I'd be taking notes on everything.
当我年轻的时候，我会记下一切。
But by your fourth year, you realize, you know what?
但到了第四年，你意识到，你知道吗？
Let me sit back and look for the overarching themes that connect things.
让我坐下来寻找连接事物的总体主题。
And that's almost how I did well in psychology is I'm like, okay, some of these findings make sense.
这几乎就是我在心理学方面表现出色的原因，我想，好吧，其中一些发现是有道理的。
And so I can remember it that way, but some of them are counterintuitive.
所以我可以这样记住它，但其中一些是违反直觉的。
And a lot of this like people aren't always rational, and this Kahneman and Tversky, all these biases people have, well, that's fascinating.
很多人并不总是理性的，卡尼曼和特沃斯基，人们拥有的所有这些偏见，嗯，这很有趣。
So I just remember it that way, the things that made sense and the things that didn't make sense.
所以我只是这样记住，有意义的事情和没有意义的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And that's kind of how you can organize things.
这就是你组织事情的方式。
And I think that can be kind of a useful principle as you get older, is knowing what to overlook and kind of knowing what to focus on.
我认为随着年龄的增长，这可能是一个有用的原则，就是知道要忽略什么以及要关注什么。
And so, older adults, even though they'll say, "My memory's not as sharp as it used to be," as long as you can remember the things that are kind of critical, that's what's important.
所以，老年人，即使他们会说，“我的记忆力不像以前那么敏锐了”，只要你能记住一些关键的事情，那就是重要的。
And so in the study on curiosity, we found that older adults tend to remember the things that they're most curious about, but they're also really good at forgetting the things that they just didn't care about in the first place.
因此，在关于好奇心的研究中，我们发现老年人往往会记住他们最好奇的事情，但他们也很容易忘记他们一开始就不关心的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sounds great.
听起来很棒。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Honestly, it sounds great.
老实说，听起来很棒。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I can't wait.
我等不及了。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because I want to learn more about certain things, remember certain people and certain things, but there's a lot of stuff that rolls through my phone or through my email.
因为我想更多地了解某些事情，记住某些人和某些事情，但是有很多东西通过我的手机或电子邮件滚动。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Luckily, not through my daily experience, but that I don't want to think about that stuff.
幸运的是，不是通过我的日常经验，而是我不想考虑这些事情。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And it captures your attention, and all of a sudden, you're like, "Where did the last 10 minutes go?"
它吸引了你的注意力，突然间，你会想，“最后 10 分钟去哪儿了？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
I've been reading about this, now I'm remembering this useless thing.
我一直在读这篇文章，现在我想起了这个无用的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
So I think if you can prune these things, and as you get older, maybe you realize, I've even realized that, gosh, I forget this.
所以我想如果你能修剪这些东西，当你变老时，也许你会意识到，我什至意识到，天哪，我忘了这一点。
I need to focus more.
我需要更加集中注意力。
It's not just conscious focus, but it's like, I'm interested in this.
这不仅仅是有意识的关注，而且就像，我对此感兴趣。
Let's put more resources and time and energy into that.
让我们投入更多的资源、时间和精力。
It takes me longer to learn a piano piece than my daughter.
我学一首钢琴曲比我女儿花的时间更长。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You play piano?
你弹钢琴吗？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
I try.
我尝试一下。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
But I see my daughter picking these things up so quickly, and I'm like, I know I'm not going to be like that.
但我看到我女儿这么快就学会了这些事情，我就想，我知道我不会那样。
But I can be more selective about what I try and learn, what's in my wheelhouse, and what's just beyond it.
但我可以更有选择性地选择我尝试和学习的内容、我的驾驶室中的内容以及超出范围的内容。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Developmental plasticity is amazing, right?
发育的可塑性是惊人的，对吧？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
It's amazing.
太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know how old she is, but I know she's younger than you, so.
我不知道她多大了，但我知道她比你年轻，所以。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah, she's young.
是的，她很年轻。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
I have two daughters and a son, and I see them all excelling.
我有两个女儿和一个儿子，我看到他们都很优秀。
Like, my older daughter is like, wow, her cognitive skills are probably beyond mine in terms of speed of processing.
就像，我的大女儿说，哇，她的认知能力在处理速度方面可能超出了我。
She might even be a better driver than I am.
她甚至可能是比我更好的司机。
She's good at planning things.
她很擅长计划事情。
My daughter playing piano, it's like, gosh, if I could have those skills now, how I would practice more.
我女儿弹钢琴，天哪，如果我现在就能掌握这些技能，我会多练习。
My son will hurt himself in baseball, and I'm like, ugh, he's out for three weeks.
我儿子会在棒球比赛中受伤，我想，呃，他要缺席三个星期。
Three days later, he's pitching again.
三天后，他又开始投球了。
And so those are things where it's like, yes, aging sucks in some ways.
所以这些事情就像，是的，衰老在某些方面很糟糕。
I'll be upfront about it.
我会提前说明这一点。
But I think when you appreciate those things as you get 40, 50, 60, it's like, yeah, it's hard to recover from injuries.
但我认为，当你在 40 岁、50 岁、60 岁时欣赏这些事情时，就会感觉，是的，很难从伤病中恢复过来。
It takes you maybe longer to learn something.
你可能需要更长的时间才能学到东西。
But the things you really do care about, you can use all this kind of knowledge and wisdom and metacognition to focus on what matters the most.
但对于你真正关心的事情，你可以利用所有这些知识、智慧和元认知来关注最重要的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's almost as if, as we are able to do less with less pain or just do less, attitude starts to become more and more important.
因此，就好像我们能够以更少的痛苦做更少的事情，或者只是做更少的事情，态度开始变得越来越重要。
That's what I'm hearing, but I don't want to lead the witness, as they say.
这就是我所听到的，但正如他们所说，我不想引导证人。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah, I think that's definitely the perspective, and this is built on some developmental theories of social learning, but also selective optimization with compensation.
是的，我认为这绝对是这个观点，这是建立在社会学习的一些发展理论的基础上的，而且也是有补偿的选择性优化。
That as you get older, maybe you're not going to be doing all these things, like scuba diving and hiking, but you'll be like, "You know that one hike I really enjoy?
随着年龄的增长，也许你不会做所有这些事情，比如水肺潜水和徒步旅行，但你会说，“你知道我真正喜欢的一次徒步旅行吗？
I want to be able to do it once a week."
我希望能够每周做一次。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And so you're still doing the things you like, but you're not doing the wide range of them.
所以你仍然在做你喜欢的事情，但你没有做范围广泛的事情。
And another related theory is socioemotional selectivity theory, Laura Carstensen at Stanford.
另一个相关理论是社会情感选择性理论，由斯坦福大学的劳拉·卡斯滕森提出。
Another perspective saying that as we get older, our mindset shifts, that we don't have as much time to live, so we want to focus on the things that are important.
另一种观点认为，随着年龄的增长，我们的心态会发生变化，我们没有太多的时间来生活，所以我们想要专注于重要的事情。
Whereas when you're young, it's very abstract to say save for retirement, or what are you going to do when you're 60?
然而，当你年轻的时候，说为退休储蓄，或者当你60岁的时候你打算做什么，是非常抽象的？
It's like, what am I going to do next week, right?
就像，下周我要做什么，对吧？
But her work has shown that when you give people different time perspectives, they make different choices.
但她的研究表明，当你给人们不同的时间视角时，他们会做出不同的选择。
So if you unfortunately tell someone who's younger that they only have five to 10 years left to live, they're going to make choices very much like older adults do.
因此，如果你不幸地告诉某个年轻人，他们只剩下五到十年的生命，他们会像老年人一样做出选择。
So I don't know if it's conscious that we're thinking these things, but, as you get older, maybe you realize, I want to focus on the things that matter the most.
所以我不知道我们是否有意识地思考这些事情，但是，随着年龄的增长，也许你会意识到，我想专注于最重要的事情。
Maybe I won't worry so much about the things that I used to worry about all the time.
也许我不会再为那些以前一直担心的事情而担心了。
And that can be kind of a healthy way to approach life.
这可能是一种健康的生活方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This might sound a little mystical, but I've always wondered if barring accident or injury, whether people have some unconscious knowledge about how long they're going to live.
这听起来可能有点神秘，但我一直想知道，除非发生事故或受伤，人们是否对自己的寿命有一些无意识的了解。
I grew up near Steve Jobs.
我在史蒂夫·乔布斯附近长大。
He used to come into the skateboard shop that I worked to get rollerblade wheels and things like that, and he was around.
他曾经来我工作的滑板店买旱冰轮之类的东西，他就在附近。
He didn't have security.
他没有安全感。
When I was a postdoc, you'd still see him walking through downtown Palo Alto in the evenings.
当我还是一名博士后时，你仍然会在晚上看到他穿过帕洛阿尔托市中心。
My dad and I would walk about once a week.
我和爸爸大约每周散步一次。
We'd take-
我们会采取——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Hmm
嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a walk together and you'd see Steve.
一起散步你就会看到史蒂夫。
He passed away, I think, in 2015 or something like that.
我想他是在 2015 年或者类似的时间去世的。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That sound about right?
听起来差不多吧？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In any case, he was thinning out then.
无论如何，那时他已经瘦了。
He was going through his various treatments.
他正在接受各种治疗。
But if you listen to his biography with Walter Isaacson, written by Walter Isaacson, it was very clear that he had a mission, he was on it, that you had to maximize on your life, that you couldn't compromise, and okay, that led to some kind of high-friction personality traits in him, too.
但如果你听一下沃尔特·艾萨克森（Walter Isaacson）写的他与沃尔特·艾萨克森（Walter Isaacson）的传记，很明显他有一个使命，他正在执行这个使命，你必须最大限度地利用你的生活，你不能妥协，好吧，这也导致了他身上某种高摩擦的性格特征。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I don't think anyone would argue that he didn't do something super impressive in what he built, and it transformed the world.
但我认为没有人会说他在他所创造的东西中没有做出一些令人印象深刻的事情，而且它改变了世界。
I mean, most everyone listening to this has an Apple product in their vicinity as I say this, right?
我的意思是，正如我所说，大多数听到此消息的人附近都有苹果产品，对吗？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it almost seemed like he had some deeper knowledge he wasn't going to live that long.
看起来他似乎知道自己活不了那么久了。
And when I think about like the 27 Club of amazing artists dying at 27, and it's almost like there's a life energy that's either packed into a shorter period of time, a medium amount of time, or a longer time.
当我想到 27 俱乐部的杰出艺术家在 27 岁时去世时，就好像有一种生命能量要么被压缩在较短的时间、中等的时间或较长的时间内。
Now, of course, accidents, injuries, and things can happen too.
当然，现在事故、伤害等事情也可能发生。
But I wonder, if we have a sense based on our parents, our grandparents, our life notion of like, I'm going to be around a while.
但我想知道，如果我们有一种基于我们的父母、祖父母、我们的生活观念的感觉，那么我还会存在一段时间。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because it really seemed to benefit him to have this attitude about life.
因为这种生活态度似乎确实对他有益。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like, you get one life, you have to live it on your terms.
就像，你有一种生活，你必须按照自己的方式生活。
You don't want to compromise your soul and your heart, and you just go for it.
你不想妥协你的灵魂和心灵，你就去做吧。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then there are these people that sort of live life as if it's going to go on forever.
还有一些人的生活就好像它会永远持续下去一样。
And for them, it seems to go on a long time, and it seems to be kind of a lower, slower arc.
对他们来说，这似乎持续了很长一段时间，而且似乎是一种较低、较慢的弧线。
I'm not saying one is better than the other.
我并不是说其中一个比另一个更好。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's impossible to compare.
这是不可能比较的。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Except to compare objectively and just say, okay, one lived shorter, packed more in, one lived longer, maybe didn't have as intense a life.
除了客观地比较，然后说，好吧，一个人活得更短，装得更多，一个人活得更长，也许没有那么紧张的生活。
Do you think there could be something in our biology that we have some awareness based on our genetic fingerprint that, I've probably got about...
你认为我们的生物学中可能存在某种东西，我们根据我们的基因指纹有一些意识，我可能已经了解了......
If I think about my dad and mom, they're doing well in their 80s, but, I probably have about 90, 100 years if I take care of myself, so I'm going to live that way.
如果我想想我的爸爸和妈妈，他们在 80 多岁时过得很好，但是，如果我照顾好自己，我可能还有 90、100 年，所以我会那样生活。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
It's an interesting conjecture.
这是一个有趣的猜想。
In some ways, we probably do know our lifespan is about this.
在某些方面，我们可能确实知道我们的寿命与此有关。
But you're right, accidents can happen, things can happen, and I've seen from my own family, I can take the average age of my mother and father, and sadly, my mother passed away when she was young.
但你是对的，意外可能会发生，事情可能会发生，而且我从我自己的家庭中看到，我可以计算我父母的平均年龄，可悲的是，我的母亲在她年轻的时候就去世了。
My father's still alive.
我父亲还活着。
So I think I have this perspective of life can be short, and when people are like, "I'm 50, but I haven't done this, this, and this," part of me is like, "I'm 50 and I've made it this far.
所以我认为我对生命的看法是短暂的，当人们说，“我已经 50 岁了，但我还没有做过这个、这个、这个”，我的一部分就像是，“我已经 50 岁了，但我已经做到了这一步。
I'm pretty happy with things." But of course, your perspective could be different.
我对事情很满意。”但当然，您的观点可能会有所不同。
And I don't know, in the case of these high-performing individuals, maybe they lead every day like it could be their last, and they want to stay up all night and transform the world.
我不知道，对于这些表现出色的人来说，也许他们每天都像最后一天一样过着，他们想熬夜改变世界。
I think a lot of the SuperAgers are probably not doing that.
我认为很多超级老年人可能没有这样做。
They're probably getting good rest, just having some routines and habits.
他们可能得到了良好的休息，只是养成了一些常规和习惯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're more chill.
他们比较冷淡。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
They're more chill, but maybe it's not intentional.
他们比较冷淡，但也许不是故意的。
It's like, I just don't want to ruin tomorrow by not sleeping a lot tonight.
就像，我只是不想因为今晚没睡太多而毁了明天。
So, a lot of people say, "What's the secret to successful aging?" And, I think the secret is not to look for one thing, probably.
所以，很多人会问：“成功老龄化的秘诀是什么？”而且，我认为秘诀可能不是去寻找一件事。
We've talked a lot about exercise, sleep, and a lot of people say it's moderation.
我们已经谈论了很多关于锻炼、睡眠的问题，很多人说这是适度的。
Like, it doesn't mean don't drink coffee or drink seven cups a day.
就像，这并不意味着不喝咖啡或每天喝七杯。
It's like, if you want a cup of coffee, have one.
就像，如果你想喝杯咖啡，就喝一杯。
But as you kind of realize maybe you don't want it every day, get eight hours of sleep.
但正如您意识到的那样，也许您不想每天都睡，但要保证八小时的睡眠。
Well, not every night.
嗯，不是每天晚上。
Clearly, pulling an all-nighter might have been a benefit for you and even a good investment.
显然，熬夜可能对你来说是有好处的，甚至是一项很好的投资。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's fun.
很有趣。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And at this age-
而在这个年纪——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't want to do it again for a very long time, but-
我很长一段时间都不想再这样做了，但是——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And you've probably learned from that.
你可能已经从中吸取了教训。
You're like, "I don't want to be editing books late at night once a week." Right?
你会说，“我不想每周一次在深夜编辑书籍。”正确的？
But once every few years, especially if it might pay off-
但每隔几年一次，尤其是如果它能带来回报的话——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
...
...
that's part of the deal I've made with myself.
这是我与自己达成的协议的一部分。
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the friendship, I'm realizing as you say this, the fact that someone else was there-
至于友谊，当你这么说的时候我意识到，事实上还有其他人在那里——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is what kept me out of like-
是什么让我不喜欢-
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
swearing, like, "This sucks," or whatever.
咒骂，比如“这太糟糕了”之类的。
It's fun.
很有趣。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It reminds me of being in graduate school.
这让我想起了读研究生的情景。
We used to run physiology experiments all night or imaging experiments all night, and you get pretty loopy somewhere between 3:00 and 5:00 a.m.
我们曾经整夜进行生理学实验或整夜进行成像实验，在凌晨 3:00 到 5:00 之间的某个时间你会变得非常疯狂。
And you just acknowledge, like, "Oh, here we go again."
你只需承认，就像，“哦，我们又来了。”
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like mild psychosis.
就像轻度精神病一样。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because you are a little bit psychotic in-
因为你有点精神病——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a sleep-deprived state.
睡眠不足的状态。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you make it through and you're like, "Hey, we did that.
当你成功了，你会说：“嘿，我们做到了。
That was fun."
那很有趣。”
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Maybe that's why people say college is the best time, because you're going through a lot of things like that, staying up late, working hard, struggling through this, trying to figure out that, but there's a social component.
也许这就是为什么人们说大学是最好的时光，因为你会经历很多类似的事情，熬夜，努力工作，努力克服这个问题，试图弄清楚这一点，但其中有一个社会因素。
You're doing it with other people.
你正在和其他人一起做这件事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And even when I think like the Steve Jobs thing, or even when I talk to older adults, they're like, "I like this part of my work life when it was a challenge, and we had to travel here and do that.
即使当我像史蒂夫·乔布斯那样思考时，或者当我与老年人交谈时，他们也会说，“我喜欢我工作生活的这一部分，因为它是一个挑战，我们必须来这里做这件事。
It was exciting." They wouldn't say it was relaxing, and it's not something they want to revisit.
这很令人兴奋。”他们不会说这是令人放松的，也不是他们想重温的事情。
And it's interesting if you ask people, "What age would you want to go back to?" Not a lot of people will say 20 or 15.
如果你问人们“你想回到什么年龄？”，那就很有趣了。没有多少人会说20或15。
It's usually kind of closer to midlife, which is interesting, because maybe everything's kind of firing on all cylinders then.
它通常接近中年，这很有趣，因为那时可能一切都在全力以赴。
Your cognition's still pretty good.
你的认知还是不错的。
Your family's still around.
你的家人还在。
You have your job.
你有你的工作。
You're reinforced by a lot of things.
很多事情都让你更加坚强。
But it's not going back to this age, when you're like 20, 25.
但它不会回到这个年龄，当你20、25岁的时候。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Any experiments that your laboratory is doing now that you can even just tell us about the design of the experiment, if not the results?
您的实验室现在正在进行哪些实验，如果不能告诉我们结果，您甚至可以告诉我们实验的设计？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, we've done some work on curiosity, and I think that's something that from a lifespan perspective is interesting.
嗯，我们已经做了一些关于好奇心的工作，我认为从寿命的角度来看这是很有趣的事情。
We've been measuring different types of curiosity.
我们一直在衡量不同类型的好奇心。
One is known as state curiosity, and one is known as trait curiosity.
一种称为状态好奇心，一种称为特质好奇心。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And trait curiosity is just in general, are you a curious person?
而好奇心只是一般性特质，你是一个好奇的人吗？
Do you kind of get into things and have trouble if you don't learn the answer?
如果你不知道答案，你是否会陷入困境并遇到麻烦？
Which I think a lot of people can have.
我想很多人都可以拥有。
But as you get older, that tends to decline with age, which I thought was kind of perplexing because I have a lot of curious people.
但随着年龄的增长，这种感觉往往会随着年龄的增长而下降，我认为这有点令人困惑，因为我有很多好奇的人。
But we've found that levels of state curiosity, when I give you some interesting bit of information, but I don't give you the answer, if it's something you care about, that actually increases with age, your level of curiosity and learning.
但我们发现，当我给你一些有趣的信息，但我没有给你答案时，如果这是你关心的事情，那么好奇心的水平实际上会随着年龄、你的好奇心和学习水平而增加。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
We think this is interesting because it probably guides our memory.
我们认为这很有趣，因为它可能会引导我们的记忆。
As we get older, we're going to remember the things we care about, and if you're curious, especially so, and there's probably some neurochemical pathway that is still engaged, even though we know all sorts of things kind of decline with age.
随着年龄的增长，我们会记住我们关心的事情，如果你好奇的话，尤其是这样，可能有一些神经化学途径仍在发挥作用，尽管我们知道各种各样的事情都会随着年龄的增长而衰退。
So that's one.
这就是其中之一。
And we've been testing it with trivia questions, things we have experimental control over.
我们一直在用一些琐碎的问题来测试它，这些问题是我们可以通过实验控制的。
But I think it has implications for lifelong learning, that if you're really interested in hiking or bird watching or skateboarding, that might still percolate when you're 70 or 80, which I think is really interesting.
但我认为这对终身学习有影响，如果你真的对徒步旅行、观鸟或滑板感兴趣，那么当你 70 岁或 80 岁的时候，这些可能仍然会渗透进来，我认为这真的很有趣。
And the other thing we're looking at is the flip side of the curiosity, which could be a double-edged sword, is that I mentioned scams and fraud, right?
我们正在关注的另一件事是好奇心的另一面，这可能是一把双刃剑，那就是我提到了诈骗和欺诈，对吗？
It's almost like opening Pandora's box, right?
这就像打开潘多拉魔盒一样，对吧？
As soon as someone calls you with an offer that's too good to be true or limited time or something, it's that thing you always wanted, and now it's at this price.
一旦有人打电话给你提供好得令人难以置信的报价或有限的时间或其他什么东西，这就是你一直想要的东西，而现在就是这个价格。
Or worse, "We kidnapped your granddaughter, and you need to pay this amount of money." And she doesn't want you to call mom and dad, and all of a sudden, you hear her voice on the line, and she's saying, "Please help me." All of a sudden, you're wiring the money.
或者更糟糕的是，“我们绑架了你的孙女，你需要支付这笔钱。”她不想让你打电话给爸爸妈妈，突然，你在电话里听到她的声音，她说：“请帮助我。”突然之间，你就开始汇钱了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People are running those scams?
人们在进行这些骗局吗？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
People are running them.
人们正在运行它们。
That's an old one.
那是旧的了。
That was when younger people are posting things on Facebook, and all of a sudden, their voice is captured, and now their voice is played to a grandparent who's like, "Oh my gosh, I need to help this person, my loved one." And it's preying on socioemotional selectivity theory, that we focus on family and feelings and emotions, and older adults get caught by this.
那时年轻人在 Facebook 上发帖，突然间，他们的声音被捕捉到，现在他们的声音被播放给祖父母，他们会说：“天哪，我需要帮助这个人，我所爱的人。”它利用了社会情感选择性理论，让我们关注家庭、感受和情绪，而老年人就会被这一点所困扰。
And AI has just made this even worse, because you could get a phone call from Steve Jobs that sounds just like Steve Jobs right now, even though you know he's not around.
人工智能让情况变得更糟，因为你可能会接到史蒂夫·乔布斯打来的电话，听起来就像史蒂夫·乔布斯现在一样，即使你知道他不在身边。
And so we're looking at how, as we get older, are we able to distinguish between this fake information and what's real.
因此，我们正在研究随着年龄的增长，我们如何能够区分这些虚假信息和真实信息。
And it's not just older adults who are prone to this.
不仅仅是老年人容易出现这种情况。
It's younger people, too, who are in a rush, might not be paying attention to something, more likely to get identity theft.
年轻人也很匆忙，可能没有注意到某些事情，更有可能遭受身份盗窃。
Whereas older adults, they have more money, they have more to lose.
而老年人虽然拥有更多的钱，但他们也会失去更多的钱。
And so I think that's on the more practical side of being able to identify how scams and fraud target people.
因此，我认为这是更实际的方面，能够识别诈骗和欺诈如何针对人们。
But there's a psychological component, emotions, again, that might engage older adults more so, whereas younger people are more interested in, "Oh, my loan is going to be forgiven if I give some information?
但还有一个心理因素，即情绪，可能会更吸引老年人，而年轻人更感兴趣的是，“哦，如果我提供一些信息，我的贷款就会被免除？
Great." So it's kind of using psychological mechanisms in a very nefarious way.
太棒了。”所以这是一种以非常邪恶的方式利用心理机制。
So I'm interested in how we can try and prevent that.
所以我对我们如何尝试并防止这种情况感兴趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And I feel like there's a lot of amateur psychologists out there who are engaged in this form of fraud.
我觉得有很多业余心理学家正在从事这种形式的欺诈行为。
So that's another area of interest in trying to design experiments, but also look at more practical implications.
因此，这是尝试设计实验的另一个感兴趣的领域，但也着眼于更实际的影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's cool.
很酷。
You have a lot of care for the older generation.
你们对老一辈人非常关心。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Well.
好吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're a protector.
你是一个保护者。
That's really great.
那真是太棒了。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
It's respect.
这是尊重。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We've had a lot of discussions on this podcast about youth and everybody, every age, but I don't recall a conversation with anyone, much less a scientist who's interested in protecting older folks.
我们在这个播客上进行了很多关于年轻人和每个人、每个年龄段的讨论，但我不记得与任何人进行过对话，更不用说与对保护老年人感兴趣的科学家进行过对话了。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know you thought about, and maybe you can tell us what this wisdom thing is about, right?
我知道你想过，也许你可以告诉我们智慧是什么，对吧？
I feel like, I'm not trying to be facetious here when I say that there seems to be a kind of transformation of advice from just advice to wisdom after somebody dies.
我觉得，当我说有人死后，建议似乎从单纯的建议转变为智慧时，我并不是想开玩笑。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
It's like when they're still around, it sounds like advice.
就好像当他们还在的时候，这听起来像是建议。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then they die, and it's like wisdom.
然后他们就死了，这就像智慧一样。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm not trying to make light of it-
我并不是想轻视它-
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but it does seem like we look at knowledge from people that have passed away as different.
但我们似乎确实将已故之人的知识视为不同的。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I haven't read much about Wooden.
我没有读过太多关于伍登的书。
I like basketball, but I like track enough that I read-
我喜欢篮球，但我更喜欢田径运动，所以我读了-
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the book about Bowerman, the coach up at Oregon.
关于俄勒冈州教练鲍尔曼的书。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The Men of Oregon is a really-- He was another one of these amazing coaches that was much more of a mentor and teacher.
俄勒冈男子队是一位真正的——他是另一位出色的教练，更像是一位导师和老师。
He made all his runners get jobs-
他让所有的跑步者都找到了工作——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
outside of school, while in school, and running for this incredible track team.
在校外、在校期间以及为这支令人难以置信的田径队跑步。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And he would place them in not always manual labor jobs, but he made sure that they understood that the town that they were running in was much more than a university.
他并不总是让他们从事体力劳动，但他确保他们明白，他们所在的小镇不仅仅是一所大学。
He took the time to do this stuff.
他花时间做这件事。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
He was-
他是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And he was a hard-nosed guy.
他是个顽固的人。
But I often wonder as I read these things, when he was alive, was everyone revering him?
但我读到这些东西的时候常常想，他在世的时候，是不是所有人都尊敬他呢？
Because as soon as you die-
因为一旦你死了——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you're like a thing.
你就像一个东西。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Right.
对。
It puts you into different place.
它把你带到不同的地方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The one advantage of dying, your words move from advice to wisdom.
死亡的一个好处是，你的话从建议变成了智慧。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what is that?
那么那是什么？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
I think Wooden got a lot of play for his wisdom.
我认为伍登的智慧得到了很多发挥。
He retired at an earlier age than most people do.
他比大多数人退休的年龄都早。
He didn't need to.
他不需要。
I don't think he made as much money as coaches do now.
我不认为他现在赚的钱比教练多。
But I think you're right.
但我认为你是对的。
It's interesting how knowledge goes into wisdom.
知识如何转化为智慧，这很有趣。
And I think even when I was thinking of my own interest in wisdom and aging is I had an older math teacher who also was my basketball coach.
我想，即使当我想到自己对智慧和衰老的兴趣时，我也有一位年长的数学老师，他也是我的篮球教练。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
I think he was formative when I think of why I'm interested.
当我想到我为什么感兴趣时，我认为他对我的影响很大。
And he was older, and he said, "Listen, you're not going to be starting this year if you don't put the time into your calculus class that you're putting the time into basketball." And he was very clear about that.
他年纪大了，他说：“听着，如果你不把时间花在微积分课上，就像你把时间花在篮球上一样，你今年就不会开始。”他对此非常清楚。
And he said, "You have tremendous potential in calculus." He didn't say anything about basketball, but he's kind of saying, "You need to work harder." The motivation is there.
他说：“你在微积分方面有巨大的潜力。”他没有谈论任何关于篮球的事情，但他有点在说，“你需要更加努力。”动机就在那里。
I've had older rabbis who've given me advice growing up that, not even being religious then, still resonates with me.
在我成长的过程中，有一些年长的拉比给了我一些建议，即使当时我还没有宗教信仰，但这些建议仍然引起了我的共鸣。
And so I think even at the practical level, the wisdom, sometimes it's nice to hear it from the horse's mouth.
所以我认为即使在实践层面，智慧，有时从马口中听到它也很好。
You can read this ...
您可以阅读此...
cute little quote or something, and that's reasonable.
可爱的小引用什么的，这是合理的。
And then I think wisdom also has a very practical kind of application.
我认为智慧也有一种非常实际的应用。
So, Sully Sullenberger, the pilot.
苏利·萨伦伯格，飞行员。
The plane, I don't know if you've seen the movie, or if you remember the history, is that a plane takes off from New York City and both engines go out.
那架飞机，我不知道你是否看过这部电影，或者你是否还记得这段历史，就是一架飞机从纽约市起飞，两个引擎都熄火了。
And he's over New York City, and he has to engage in an emergency landing.
他正在纽约市上空，他必须紧急着陆。
And he has to-- So who do you want?
他必须——那么你想要谁？
Do you want a younger pilot who has faster reaction times, better memory, or do you want an older pilot who has more experience flying but has never landed a plane on water?
您想要一位反应速度更快、记忆力更好的年轻飞行员，还是想要一位拥有更多飞行经验但从未在水上降落过飞机的年长飞行员？
And we know how the story ends, thankfully.
谢天谢地，我们知道故事的结局。
But most people would probably...
但大多数人可能会...
I asked my class this, this is the dilemma.
我问我的班级，这就是困境。
Where is the wisdom?
智慧在哪里？
Where is the knowledge?
知识在哪里？
If you're the faster pilot, maybe you turn around and land at an airport, that makes more sense.
如果你是速度更快的飞行员，也许你会掉头降落在机场，这更有意义。
But Sully eventually decided that he had to make this water landing.
但萨利最终决定他必须进行这次水上着陆。
And he said the reason he knew he could pull this off is he used to fly gliders.
他说他之所以知道自己能成功，是因为他曾经驾驶过滑翔机。
And he said the principles are the same, but it's going to be very different physics and weight management.
他说原理是相同的，但物理和体重管理会非常不同。
But he said he felt like he'd made a number of investments over the years of kind of boosting his knowledge so that he could make one enormous withdrawal, basically landing this plane on the Hudson River, which is an amazing feat.
但他说，他觉得自己多年来进行了大量投资，以提高自己的知识，这样他就可以进行大规模撤资，基本上将这架飞机降落在哈德逊河上，这是一项了不起的壮举。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's wild.
那太疯狂了。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
And so I think it's a dramatic, Hollywood, and there's a movie about it as well, but I think it's a nice illustration of you can accumulate all this knowledge, not just so you apply what you've learned.
所以我认为这是一部戏剧性的好莱坞电影，也有一部关于它的电影，但我认为这是一个很好的例子，说明你可以积累所有这些知识，而不仅仅是应用你所学到的知识。
It's you're having to transform that knowledge and say, "Now I'm going to apply it in this one emergency situation." So maybe that's the difference between knowledge, which is like, "I know so much," and then wisdom of how to carry it out or when it's appropriate.
你必须转变这些知识并说：“现在我要把它应用到这个紧急情况中。”所以也许这就是知识（就像“我知道这么多”）和如何执行它或何时执行它的智慧之间的区别。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It does help when the coaches have played, right, like Steve Kerr.
当教练打球时，这确实有帮助，对吧，就像史蒂夫·科尔一样。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
But some of the best coaches are the ones who are the worst.
但一些最好的教练也是最差的。
Tommy Lasorda, all these people who struggled, and they've seen it, and now they're going to go into coaching.
汤米·拉索达（Tommy Lasorda），所有这些奋斗过的人，他们都看到了，现在他们要进入教练岗位。
And maybe that's the same with older adults.
也许老年人也是如此。
Again, these two older adults who took my class who are therapists, it's like, if you see a therapist, would you want to see a 20-year-old, or would you want to see a 50 or 60-year-old, right?
再说一遍，这两位上我课的老年人都是治疗师，就像，如果你去看治疗师，你会想见一个 20 岁的人，还是想见一个 50 岁或 60 岁的人，对吗？
It just seems like there's going to be a difference in what they bring to the table.
看起来他们带来的东西会有所不同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Nowadays, I think a lot of people are going to say ChatGPT.
现在，我想很多人都会说ChatGPT。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah, might be.
是的，可能是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which I've found great use of AI in the self-testing thing.
我发现人工智能在自我测试方面很有用。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not looking for knowledge, but having-
不是寻求知识，而是拥有——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
ChatGPT generate a self-test.
ChatGPT 生成自测试。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Test me on my knowledge of something.
测试我对某事的了解。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Awesome, because as we were talking about before we went on mic, self-testing is-
太棒了，因为正如我们在使用麦克风之前讨论的那样，自测试是-
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
one of the best ways to learn information, realize, "Ah, I got that wrong.
学习信息的最好方法之一是意识到，“啊，我错了。
I didn't know that." And that's the delta.
我不知道这一点。”这就是三角洲。
That's the difference between where you're at and where you want to be, as opposed to just reciting things or highlighting things or writing them down.
这就是你现在所处的位置和你想要达到的位置之间的区别，而不是仅仅背诵或突出显示或写下它们。
Although I do that also.
虽然我也这么做。
But I know a lot of people are going to the internet for answers.
但我知道很多人都会上网寻找答案。
And on the one hand, we could say, well, those answers are the synthesis of a lot of wise people, potentially.
一方面，我们可以说，这些答案可能是许多智者的综合。
But you could say-
但你可以说——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I would like the integrated advice of Mahatma Gandhi-
我想要圣雄甘地的综合建议-
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
Jane Goodall, and whoever, and for this particular situation, and make it wise.
珍·古道尔，无论是谁，对于这种特殊情况，要明智地做出决定。
I don't know what it would say.
我不知道它会说什么。
Someone should do that prompt.
应该有人做这个提示。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
It's a great question.
这是一个很好的问题。
I'm not of the era that my children are in terms of using AI, but I'd love to be like, "Answer this like an 80-year-old would."
我不属于我的孩子们使用人工智能的时代，但我很想“像 80 岁的老人一样回答这个问题”。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
How would you present it differently if you were older versus younger?
如果你是年长者和年轻者，你会如何以不同的方式呈现它？
Because a lot of it is just so much more information that I'm like, "Wow, that's great.
因为其中很多信息太多了，我会想，“哇，太棒了。
Can you summarize?" I don't use it often, but sometimes I'm like, "Can you summarize this?"
你能总结一下吗？”我不经常使用它，但有时我会想，“你能总结一下吗？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Sometimes it misses things, and sometimes it's good.
有时它会错过一些东西，有时它又是好的。
But yeah, it's really fascinating how that sort of synthesis can be so transforming.
但是，是的，这种综合如何能够带来如此巨大的变革，真是令人着迷。
And even my son's like, "Why do I have to learn this when I can just ask AI now?" And it used to be when I was a kid, "Why do I have to learn this when I can just look it up in an encyclopedia?", right?
甚至我儿子也会说，“我现在可以问人工智能了，为什么我还要学这个呢？”当我还是个孩子的时候，曾经有过这样的想法：“既然我可以在百科全书中查找它，为什么我必须学习这个？”，对吗？
It's like the information is always going to be there, but it's how you're going to use it kind of in an informed way.
就好像信息始终存在，但这取决于您如何以明智的方式使用它。
And I always say, could you imagine if the next president said, "I don't know our foreign policy with Mexico, but I could look it up." Well, it's like, well, you want to know a little bit about the foreign policy, like friend or foe or something.
我总是说，你能想象如果下一任总统说：“我不知道我们对墨西哥的外交政策，但我可以查一下。”嗯，就像，嗯，你想了解一些关于外交政策的信息，比如朋友或敌人之类的。
You have to have some basic level, and where would you look it up?
你必须有一些基础水平，你会在哪里查找它？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Do you have aides that you trust?
你有值得信赖的助手吗？
Do you have sources that you trust?
您有值得信赖的消息来源吗？
I don't think you need to know all of these details, but you need to know kind of some general knowledge.
我认为您不需要了解所有这些细节，但您需要了解一些常识。
And usually, that comes from learning all the details.
通常，这来自于了解所有细节。
Like you've learned all these details in neuroscience 20 years ago that you've probably forgotten, but it informs how you interpret neuroscience findings today.
就像 20 年前您已经了解了神经科学中的所有这些细节一样，您可能已经忘记了这些细节，但它告诉您如何解释今天的神经科学发现。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I'm admittedly such a nerd.
我承认我是个书呆子。
I have this textbook.
我有这本教科书。
There's a really great new textbook.
有一本非常棒的新教科书。
I didn't plan to plug this, but my colleague Li-Huei 很 不 wrote a "Principles of Neurobiology" textbook that, not as beefy as the "Principles of Neural Science" one-
我本来没打算把这个塞进去，但我的同事李辉很不写一本《神经生物学原理》教科书，它不像《神经科学原理》那样强大——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that is out of Columbia.
那是从哥伦比亚出来的。
But I'm a West Coast guy, so I like Li-Huei 很 不 's book.
但我是西海岸人，所以我很喜欢李惠的书。
And recently, I just started reading it.
最近，我刚刚开始阅读它。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I started flipping through it, reading it front to back, and of course, I recognize every line, right?
我开始翻阅它，从头到尾读，当然，我认得每一行，对吧？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because this is the area I've spent all these years in.
因为这是我这些年待过的地方。
But I had not thought about a lot of it-
但我没想太多——
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in a while, and I'm thinking about it a little differently, and maybe I'm lying to myself, but I tell myself there's some enrichment in this.
过了一会儿，我的想法有点不同，也许我在对自己撒谎，但我告诉自己这其中有一些丰富的东西。
I don't know what it is.
我不知道那是什么。
I'm not just brushing up.
我不只是在刷。
There's something that's going to come of this.
这将会带来一些事情。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know it.
我知道。
But maybe I'm just defaulting to the thing that's easiest, and maybe I should be looking, maybe I should be learning Latin or something like that instead.
但也许我只是默认了最简单的事情，也许我应该寻找，也许我应该学习拉丁语或类似的东西。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
It's almost like nostalgia.
这几乎就像怀旧之情。
You're going back to, you remember learning this.
你回过头来，你记得学过这个。
It's also-
这也是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it's beautiful
是的，很漂亮
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
...
...
it's more fun because now you're like, "I haven't thought about this in a while, but now I can connect it to the other things I've been thinking about." So it's like going back to a language you're familiar with or a city you're familiar with.
这更有趣，因为现在你会想，“我有一段时间没有考虑过这个问题了，但现在我可以将它与我一直在考虑的其他事情联系起来。”所以这就像回到你熟悉的语言或你熟悉的城市。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The big question is, are we deluding ourselves into thinking that the brain somehow gets better as we age?
最大的问题是，我们是否自欺欺人地认为，随着年龄的增长，大脑会以某种方式变得更好？
Is this a story we are telling ourselves so that we can- ...
这是我们告诉自己的故事吗，这样我们就可以-...
hold on to more p- Obviously, if we do the right things, which you've described in your book and today, get a bit more, maybe a lot more, meaning and experience, or in keeping with the Erikson stages of development, where there's a core conflict at every stage of life.
坚持更多——显然，如果我们做你在书中和今天所描述的正确的事情，就会获得更多，也许更多的意义和经验，或者与埃里克森的发展阶段保持一致，在生命的每个阶段都存在核心冲突。
Development doesn't stop when we become young adults.
当我们成为年轻人时，发展并不会停止。
Neuroplasticity continues throughout the lifespan.
神经可塑性贯穿整个生命周期。
Maybe, and I certainly prefer this answer, maybe our brains get better in certain ways that afford us access to life experience, internal feelings of well-being and peace, and things that are outsized in comparison to what we can experience when we're young.
也许，我当然更喜欢这个答案，也许我们的大脑在某些方面变得更好，让我们能够获得生活经验、幸福与平静的内心感受，以及与我们年轻时所能经历的相比更大的事情。
I like that.
我喜欢这样。
And maybe we do get better in certain ways as we age.
也许随着年龄的增长，我们在某些方面确实会变得更好。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
I like that perspective, too, of course, but maybe it's hard to say what's better or what's worse.
当然，我也喜欢这个观点，但也许很难说哪个更好，哪个更糟。
It's like this is a qualitative difference, and if your expectation of old age is quite low and you realize, "Wait, it doesn't have to be like that," or, "I'm not going to run as fast as I used to," or, "Maybe I won't be scuba diving, but hey, it can actually be very meaningful," it might encourage you to engage in behaviors that'll allow you to get there and be there in a mobile way, a way that you'll enjoy it.
这就像是一种质的差异，如果你对老年的期望很低，并且你意识到，“等等，它不必是那样的”，或者“我不会像以前那样跑得那么快”，或者“也许我不会水肺潜水，但是嘿，这实际上是非常有意义的”，它可能会鼓励你从事一些行为，让你能够以一种移动的方式到达那里并在那里，一种你会喜欢的方式它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So maybe instead of striving to be a superager, we should strive to be super content.
因此，也许我们不应该努力成为超级老人，而应该努力变得超级满足。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah sure.
是的，当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Something like that.
类似的事情。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know.
我不知道。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
I think there's a quote people say, "Aging is better than the alternative."
我想人们常说：“衰老比其他选择更好”。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is youth lost on the young, though?
然而年轻人就失去了青春吗？
We're going to fire back and forth cliches here.
我们将在这里来来回回地讨论陈词滥调。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
I definitely feel like there's times where I'm like, "Wow, maybe I shouldn't call the book 'Better With Age,' because let's revise that."
我确实觉得有时候我会想，“哇，也许我不应该把这本书称为“随着年龄的增长而更好”，因为让我们修改一下。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because of your son's shoulder?
因为你儿子的肩膀？
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Well, just all sorts of things you can do when you're younger and you don't even appreciate it.
好吧，你年轻时可以做各种各样的事情，但你甚至不欣赏它们。
You don't even think twice like, "Wow, it hurt yesterday, but it doesn't hurt today." It's like, "Oh, that's months for me."
你甚至不会三思而后行，“哇，昨天很痛，但今天就不痛了。”就像，“哦，这对我来说是几个月。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, but the social stuff is so stressful.
是的，但是社交压力太大了。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
It can be, but I'm not sure at that time it's relative to what.
可能是，但当时我不确定它与什么有关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
And I think there's a lot of challenges with younger people today, and going through COVID and so on, but I've also seen a more focus on mental health.
我认为当今的年轻人面临着很多挑战，正在经历新冠疫情等，但我也看到人们更加关注心理健康。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
I've seen with my daughters, they're like, "I'm going to go for a walk." When I was 17, I wasn't just going for a walk.
我和我的女儿们见过，她们会说，“我要去散步。”当我17岁的时候，我不只是去散步。
I was walking to get somewhere or running to get something.
我步行去某个地方或者跑步去拿东西。
But now there's this awareness of like, "Maybe I'll take care of myself," or, "Maybe I'll listen to that podcast while I'm walking." It's like, wow, that seems very wise .
但现在有人意识到，“也许我会照顾好自己”，或者“也许我会一边走路一边听播客”。就像，哇，这看起来非常明智。
And so I'm impressed, and I hope that those sorts of habits, as you develop them earlier, can stay with you and maybe buffer in this midlife, where it's like, "I always have to be busy.
所以我印象深刻，我希望这些习惯，当你更早养成它们时，能够伴随你，也许在你的中年时起到缓冲作用，就像，“我总是必须很忙。
I can't stop and think about things." And I think maybe that's why my interest or even obsession with aging is to be like, wow, there's this group of people that seem to be doing pretty well, and I really enjoy being around them.
我无法停下来思考一些事情。”我想也许这就是为什么我对衰老感兴趣甚至痴迷的原因是，哇，有一群人似乎做得很好，我真的很喜欢和他们在一起。
How can I be like them?
我怎样才能像他们一样？
And oh, it so happens they're older adults.
哦，碰巧他们都是老年人。
But if you went to a country and you're like, "This group of people are really cool and interesting and kind of quirky.
但如果你去了一个国家，你会想，“这群人真的很酷、很有趣，而且有点古怪。
Maybe I'll live here." And to me, that might be what older age can be.
也许我会住在这里。”对我来说，这可能就是老年的意义。
And sure, they're sometimes frail and have to rely on other people, but that's not always such a bad thing if you have the right structure in place.
当然，他们有时很脆弱，不得不依赖其他人，但如果你有正确的结构，这并不总是一件坏事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're doing important work, and I'm grateful that you would come here today and share your knowledge, your wisdom with us.
您正在做重要的工作，我很感激您今天来到这里与我们分享您的知识和智慧。
Your book, I didn't know you were going to give me a book today, "Better With Age." I'm going to read it, "The Psychology of Successful Aging." I'm going to encourage you to write more books because clearly you've gathered more knowledge since then.
你的书，我不知道你今天要送我一本书，《随着年龄的增长，更好》。我要读《成功老龄化的心理学》。我会鼓励你写更多的书，因为显然从那时起你已经收集了更多的知识。
But it's a rare find that somebody is doing really interesting science and their work is immediately applicable, and that it taps into a segment of our population that exists everywhere in the world, but that, frankly, doesn't get quite as much attention, research attention, as other areas.
但很少发现有人正在做真正有趣的科学，他们的工作可以立即应用，并且它利用了世界各地存在的一部分人口，但坦率地说，这并没有像其他领域那样得到那么多的关注和研究关注。
I know there's a big interest in longevity.
我知道人们对长寿很感兴趣。
There's a big interest in aging and preserving what we have.
人们对老化和保存我们所拥有的东西非常感兴趣。
But in addition to studying all those things, you clearly study other aspects of what's unique and great about people 50, dare I say, and above, and what we can all learn.
但除了研究所有这些事情之外，你还清楚地研究了 50 岁以上的人的独特和伟大的其他方面，我敢说，以及我们都可以学到什么。
Because if we're lucky enough to live into those decades, we're all going to be benefiting from this knowledge.
因为如果我们足够幸运能够活到这几十年，我们都将从这些知识中受益。
So thanks for coming here today.
感谢您今天来到这里。
Let's do it again as more comes off the mill from your lab.
当您的实验室生产出更多产品时，让我们再做一次。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Thanks for getting the word out.
感谢您的发言。
It's really wonderful to hear how to digest this, and it gives me new ideas of what we can pursue as we think about this.
听到如何消化这一点真是太棒了，它给了我新的想法，让我知道当我们思考这个问题时我们可以追求什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Well, it's been a pleasure.
嗯，很高兴。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Alan Castel:
艾伦·卡斯特尔：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Thanks.
谢谢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Alan Castel.
感谢您参加今天与艾伦·卡斯特尔博士的讨论。
To learn more about his research and to find a link to his book, "Better With Age: The Psychology of Successful Aging," please see the links in the show note caption.
要了解有关他的研究的更多信息并找到他的书《随着年龄的增长而更好：成功老龄化的心理学》的链接，请参阅节目注释标题中的链接。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的关注按钮来关注播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。
And you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.
您现在可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab Podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客、嘉宾或您希望我考虑在 Huberman 实验室播客中讨论的主题有意见，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这本书是我花了五年多时间编写的，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验。
And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
它涵盖了从睡眠到运动再到压力控制的所有协议，以及与注意力和动机相关的协议，当然，我为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." And if you're not already following me on social media, I am hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 hubermanlab。
So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab Podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab Podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。
Again, it's hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
再说一遍，所有社交媒体平台上都是 hubermanlab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available completely zero cost.
所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件即可。
And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Alan Castel.
再次感谢您参加今天与艾伦·卡斯特尔博士的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
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体验支持您通过美国运通商务白金卡进行建设的会员资格。
Unlock over $4,000 in business and travel value annually with statement credits on select purchases from brands like Dell, ChatGPT Business, Hilton, and Adobe, and other benefits.
通过从 Dell、ChatGPT Business、Hilton 和 Adobe 等品牌购买精选产品的账单积分以及其他福利，每年可解锁超过 4,000 美元的商务和旅行价值。
American Express Business Platinum, there's nothing like it.
美国运通商务白金卡，无与伦比。
Based on total potential value of statement credits on select purchases and other benefits.
基于特定购买和其他福利的报表积分的总潜在价值。
Enrollments required.
需要报名。
Monthly and other limits and terms apply.
每月和其他限制和条款适用。
Learn more at americanexpress.com/business-platinum.
如需了解更多信息，请访问 americanexpress.com/business-platinum。