How to Improve Motivation & Overcome Procrastination | Dr. Masud Husain

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Almost every drug of addiction, whether we go from nicotine to alcohol to heroin to cocaine to amphetamine, almost every drug of addiction hijacks that dopamine system we were talking about.

几乎每一种成瘾药物，无论是尼古丁、酒精、海洛因、可卡因还是安非他明，几乎每一种成瘾药物都会劫持我们所说的多巴胺系统。

We find when that circuitry is not working, that you can get profound loss of motivation, apathy.

我们发现，当该电路无法正常工作时，您可能会严重丧失动力、变得冷漠。

When that circuitry is on overdrive, because it's been hijacked by these drugs, you get states of hyper-motivation.

当该电路因被这些药物劫持而超速运转时，您就会处于过度激励的状态。

So, of course, this is going to be overly simplistic to think dopamine levels are the only factor that affect our motivation, but it certainly turns out to be a very important factor in graduating the level of motivation we have to seek particular outcomes.

因此，当然，认为多巴胺水平是影响我们动机的唯一因素就过于简单化了，但事实证明，它确实是我们追求特定结果的动机水平的一个非常重要的因素。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

My guest today is Dr. Massood Hussain, who is a neurologist and neuroscientist at Oxford, making key discoveries about the relationship between motivation and pleasure.

今天我的嘉宾是马苏德·侯赛因博士，他是牛津大学的神经学家和神经科学家，在动机和快乐之间的关系方面做出了重要发现。

Today, we discuss what really determines our level of drive and determination to do everything from getting up to go to school or work, to pursuing long, hard challenges that last many years.

今天，我们讨论什么真正决定了我们做每件事的动力和决心，从起床去学校或工作，到追求持续多年的长期、艰巨的挑战。

We start off by talking about the opposite of motivation, which, of course, is apathy.

我们首先讨论动机的反面，当然，就是冷漠。

And as you'll learn, perhaps surprisingly, apathy is separate from one's desire for something.

也许令人惊讶的是，正如您将了解到的那样，冷漠与一个人对某事的渴望是分开的。

We also discuss something very useful, which is how you can change your own perception of your own effort level.

我们还讨论了一些非常有用的事情，那就是如何改变你对自己努力水平的看法。

Today's discussion really gets to the heart of motivation and procrastination, and how anyone, healthy or otherwise, can leverage that understanding to their benefit.

今天的讨论真正触及了动机和拖延的核心，以及任何人，无论健康与否，都可以如何利用这种理解为自己谋取利益。

As you'll soon hear, Dr. Massood Hussain is a remarkable scientist, neurologist, and communicator.

您很快就会听说，马苏德·侯赛因博士是一位杰出的科学家、神经学家和传播者。

Indeed, he's the author of a spectacular book.

事实上，他是一本精彩的书的作者。

I've read it.

我读过。

It's entitled "Our Brain, Ourselves," and it's a terrific read if you want to learn more about how your brain works, how it can change over time, and how it makes you who you are.

这本书的标题是《我们的大脑，我们自己》，如果你想更多地了解你的大脑如何工作、它如何随时间变化以及它如何塑造你，这本书是一本很棒的读物。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。

In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.

为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。

And now for my discussion with Dr. Massood Hussain.

现在我与马苏德·侯赛因博士进行讨论。

Dr. Massood Hussain, welcome.

马苏德·侯赛因博士，欢迎。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Thank you for having me.

谢谢你有我。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You've worked on a huge variety of topics: Alzheimer's, attention, apathy.

您研究过各种各样的主题：阿尔茨海默病、注意力、冷漠。

We're definitely going to talk about apathy.

我们肯定会谈论冷漠。

Spatial neglect, which I'm guessing most of our audience probably doesn't know exactly what that is.

空间忽视，我猜我们大多数观众可能并不确切知道那是什么。

I'd like to start with the one that sounds like a bit of a downer, but as a window into understanding motivation-

我想从听起来有点令人沮丧的一个开始，但作为理解动机的一个窗口——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and these states of excitement that most of us would like to be in.

以及我们大多数人都希望处于的兴奋状态。

But let's talk about and really define through your lens, what is apathy?

但让我们通过你的镜头来讨论并真正定义一下，什么是冷漠？

How does the brain bring about this thing that we call apathy?

大脑是如何产生我们所说的冷漠的？

And is apathy just a lack of motivation?

冷漠只是缺乏动力吗？

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

These are big questions, and I think the way we've approached them is somewhat serendipitous in the sense that, 15 years ago, I wasn't studying apathy or motivation.

这些都是大问题，我认为我们处理这些问题的方式有些偶然，因为 15 年前我并没有研究冷漠或动机。

Like many people, I might think someone's lazy or they're highly motivated, but that's a sort of psychological state.

和很多人一样，我可能会认为某人很懒，或者他们很有动力，但这是一种心理状态。

It's a personality.

这是一种个性。

And it was only about 15 years ago, I started beginning to be aware that there may be an important biology underlying motivation, and when that biology goes wrong, it can lead to loss of motivation and even pathological apathy.

大约 15 年前，我开始意识到动机背后可能存在一种重要的生物学因素，当这种生物学因素出现问题时，可能会导致动力丧失，甚至病态冷漠。

And the way this happened was completely out of the blue.

而这件事发生的方式完全出乎意料。

I was then working in London at the National Hospital for Neurology in Queen Square at UCL, and we received a letter from a doctor describing a guy in his 30s.

当时我在伦敦大学学院皇后广场的国家神经病学医院工作，我们收到了一封医生的来信，描述了一个 30 多岁的男人。

And this guy had been a highly productive person.

这个人是一个非常有生产力的人。

He was in finance.

他从事金融工作。

He was also really liked socially, had a wide network of friends.

他在社交上也很受欢迎，拥有广泛的朋友网络。

But suddenly, he had become completely different.

但突然之间，他就变得完全不同了。

From being highly motivated, he went to, "I'm not interested.

他从非常积极的态度转变为：“我不感兴趣。

I can't be bothered." And that was both at work as well as with his friends.

我不能被打扰。”这既是在工作中，也是在与朋友相处时。

So people began to think, "This is something really different in this guy, David.

于是人们开始思考：“大卫这个人确实与众不同。

What's happening?" They wondered if he had become depressed, that's why he wasn't really functioning.

发生什么事了？”他们想知道他是否变得抑郁，这就是他无法真正发挥作用的原因。

And he went to see his doctor, who started him on an antidepressant, but it made no difference.

他去看了医生，医生给他开了抗抑郁药，但没有什么作用。

He was still the same.

他还是一样。

So he lost his job.

于是他丢了工作。

He got fired because he had lost motivation, and he was so apathetic that he couldn't be bothered to get Social Security benefit.

他被解雇是因为他失去了动力，而且他是如此冷漠，以至于他懒得去领取社会保障福利。

So his friend said, "Okay, come and stay with us." And they regretted it almost immediately because David did nothing.

于是他的朋友说：“好吧，来和我们一起住吧。” And they regretted it almost immediately because David did nothing.

He just sat there in a chair all day long, waiting for his friends to come back, do the cooking, clean.

他整天坐在椅子上，等待他的朋友们回来，做饭，打扫卫生。

They needed to prompt him to have a shower because he literally just sat there.

他们需要提示他去洗澡，因为他实际上只是坐在那里。

His level of motivation was almost zero.

他的积极性几乎为零。

When we got to see him, and it was difficult because he'd never come to his appointments.

当我们见到他时，情况很困难，因为他从来没有来过他的约会。

I had to phone him up to say, "Look, I am going to be here tomorrow.

I had to phone him up to say, "Look, I am going to be here tomorrow.

Please come." And he grudgingly said, "Okay, I'll try and make it." And he was, of course, late.

请过来。” And he grudgingly said, "Okay, I'll try and make it."当然，他迟到了。

He came, and there was this very sad guy.

他来了，还有一个非常悲伤的人。

He's disheveled, really not looking after himself, stains on his shirt.

他衣冠不整，根本不照顾自己，衬衫上有污渍。

But the one thing he wasn't was unhappy.

但他唯一不高兴的是。

He was absolutely happy about life, which was the perplexing thing.

他对生活感到绝对幸福，这是令人困惑的事情。

He'd lost his job.

他丢了工作。

He'd lost his apartment because he wasn't paying the rent, couldn't be bothered to get Social Security.

He'd lost his apartment because he wasn't paying the rent, couldn't be bothered to get Social Security.

But there he was, really happy about what was happening in life, looking forward to something that he didn't know what, but he was still looking forward to good things in life.

但他对生活中发生的事情感到非常高兴，期待着一些他不知道是什么的事情，但他仍然期待着生活中美好的事情。

So when I asked him, "Why aren't you doing anything when you're At home, what would you normally do?

So when I asked him, "Why aren't you doing anything when you're At home, what would you normally do?

"I would listen to some music." "So why aren't you listening to music?" "Because it would take me some time to put my music system together." "How long would it take?" "Five minutes." So this was really sort of revelatory for me.

“我会听一些音乐。” “那你为什么不听音乐呢？” "Because it would take me some time to put my music system together." “需要多长时间？” “五分钟。”所以这对我来说确实是一种启示。

The effort of putting the cables together for his music system, taking out the loudspeakers, was too much in terms of the pleasure he could obtain from listening to music.

为他的音乐系统安装电缆、拆除扬声器的工作量对于他从听音乐中获得的乐趣来说是太多了。

It turned out that David had a very unusual neurological problem.

It turned out that David had a very unusual neurological problem.

His MRI brain scans revealed that he had two tiny little strokes in the basal ganglia.

His MRI brain scans revealed that he had two tiny little strokes in the basal ganglia.

These are deep nuclei in the brain, which are evolutionarily well conserved.

这些是大脑深处的核，在进化上得到了很好的保存。

They go back to the earliest vertebrate that we still have, the lamprey, 360 million years old.

They go back to the earliest vertebrate that we still have, the lamprey, 360 million years old.

And the key thing that we've discovered from the neurophysiology of the lamprey is the basal ganglia are important in linking motivation signals to action.

我们从七鳃鳗的神经生理学中发现的关键是基底神经节对于将动机信号与行动联系起来很重要。

Some people call it motivation to act.

有些人称之为行动动机。

So in an organism like the lamprey, motivation signals might be hunger or sex that lead to action to fulfill those goals.

因此，在像七鳃鳗这样的生物体中，动机信号可能是饥饿或性，从而导致采取行动来实现这些目标。

In David, these strokes in the ventral striatum, what's called the nucleus accumbens in animals, led to no motivation signals leading to action.

In David, these strokes in the ventral striatum, what's called the nucleus accumbens in animals, led to no motivation signals leading to action.

Nothing happened.

什么也没发生。

But if you prompted him, "Go take a shower.

但如果你提示他：“去洗澡吧。

Come on," he would do it.

来吧，”他会这么做的。

But of his own volition, he wasn't motivated to act.

但出于他自己的意愿，他并没有采取行动的动力。

And that was really something that was extraordinary for us, because here was a man who'd been highly motivated, and that motivation had been extinguished by these two tiny little strokes, which didn't affect him physically, but affected his behavior.

这对我们来说确实是一件非同寻常的事情，因为这是一个非常有动力的人，而这种动力已经被这两次微小的中风所浇灭了，这并没有影响他的身体，但影响了他的行为。

And the studies that we performed with David to try and understand this led us to the concept that we might be able to deconstruct this nebulous thing called motivation.

我们与大卫一起进行的研究试图理解这一点，这让我们想到了一个概念，即我们也许能够解构这个称为动机的模糊事物。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

May I ask a question?

我可以问一个问题吗？

It's fascinating, and I'm sure everyone, including myself, is also wondering what became of David.

It's fascinating, and I'm sure everyone, including myself, is also wondering what became of David.

But before you tell us, was it the case that he would feel overwhelmed?

但在你告诉我们之前，他会感到不知所措吗？

Like, I want to listen to music, but that five minutes feels like a huge effort.

Like, I want to listen to music, but that five minutes feels like a huge effort.

That's a long effort.

这是一个长期的努力。

Or was it the case that he didn't really want it either?

Or was it the case that he didn't really want it either?

Because the way you've described these lesions is a severing of the wanting from the engagement in the process to have.

Because the way you've described these lesions is a severing of the wanting from the engagement in the process to have.

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But of course, as you and I know, neural circuits are never that simple.

But of course, as you and I know, neural circuits are never that simple.

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

No, of course not.

不，当然不是。

Yeah.

是的。

And he never expressed it unless we asked him, but he would say that it's too much effort to put this system together.

除非我们问他，否则他从来不会表达出来，但他会说把这个系统放在一起需要太多的努力。

So even if he was asked, "What would you like to do?" He might say, "I'd like to listen to music." "Why aren't you doing it?" "Because it's too much effort to do it." Right?

所以即使他被问到：“你想做什么？”他可能会说：“我想听音乐。” “你为什么不这么做？” “因为做起来太费力了。”对吗？

And that became a real insight into how our brains work when we make decisions about, is this potential action worth the effort in terms of the reward that will arise from it?

当我们做出决定时，这成为我们大脑如何工作的真正洞察，从由此产生的奖励来看，这种潜在的行动是否值得付出努力？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Hmm.

嗯。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Because it turns out that if we look at apathy across many different neurological disorders, one common trait that we found when we asked people, is this particular option worth the reward if it was requiring this much physical effort?

因为事实证明，如果我们观察许多不同神经系统疾病的冷漠现象，这是我们在询问人们时发现的一个共同特征，如果这个特殊的选择需要这么多的体力劳动，它是否值得奖励？

We find that everyone is willing to work for high rewards, but the difference between motivated people and apathetic people is at the level of the low rewards.

我们发现，每个人都愿意为高回报而工作，但积极的人和冷漠的人之间的区别就在于低回报的水平。

Apathetic people are more inclined to say, "Nah, I don't think this is worth the effort, so I won't do that option." That's a really interesting signature that we found when people make bad decisions.

Apathetic people are more inclined to say, "Nah, I don't think this is worth the effort, so I won't do that option."当人们做出错误决定时，我们发现这是一个非常有趣的特征。

But in someone extreme like David, almost nothing incentivized him to put in effort to act unless he was prompted to do so.

但对于像大卫这样极端的人来说，除非有人提示他，否则几乎没有什么能激励他努力采取行动。

But going back to what happened to him, one of the things we've learnt from the neuroscience of the basal ganglia and motivation to act is that dopamine is a key neurotransmitter, a key chemical in the brain, which is important in the neural circuitry.

但回到他身上发生的事情，我们从基底神经节和行动动机的神经科学中学到的一件事是，多巴胺是一种关键的神经递质，是大脑中的一种关键化学物质，在神经回路中很重要。

And that's when we thought, okay, is there anything we can do for this guy to improve his motivation?

那时我们就想，好吧，我们能为这个人做些什么来提高他的积极性吗？

So initially, we tried levodopa, L-DOPA, which is the drug that Oliver Sacks describes in "Awakenings," and many people have seen the film, and it's used a lot in Parkinson's disease for treatment.

所以最初，我们尝试了左旋多巴，L-DOPA，这是奥利弗·萨克斯在《觉醒》中描述的药物，很多人都看过这部电影，它大量用于治疗帕金森病。

We slowly ramped up that drug, but seemed to make absolutely no difference behaviorally to David or on our tests of reward sensitivity.

我们慢慢地增加了这种药物的剂量，但似乎对大卫的行为或我们的奖励敏感性测试没有任何影响。

We developed some ways of measuring that.

我们开发了一些衡量这一点的方法。

So we were about to give up, and then I suddenly thought, look, let's use the other drug that we use for the dopamine system, and that class of drugs acts directly on dopamine D2 and D3 receptors, rather than being a precursor to making dopamine in the brain, like levodopa.

所以我们正要放弃，然后我突然想，看，我们使用另一种用于多巴胺系统的药物，这类药物直接作用于多巴胺 D2 和 D3 受体，而不是像左旋多巴那样作为大脑中产生多巴胺的前体。

And this drug, ropinirole, latches onto dopamine receptors directly and stimulates the dopamine circuitry.

这种药物罗匹尼罗直接锁定多巴胺受体并刺激多巴胺回路。

So we slowly ramped up this drug, thinking, is it going to be any different or not?

所以我们慢慢地加大了这种药物的用量，思考它是否会有所不同？

But three months after we started this medication, he came back.

但在我们开始这种药物治疗三个月后，他回来了。

David came back to see us, and I did not recognize this guy in the waiting room because, first of all, he'd had a shower, he'd had a haircut, he was wearing a suit, he had a new job, and most impressively, he had a new girlfriend.

大卫回来看我们，我在候诊室里没有认出这个人，因为首先，他洗了个澡，理了发，穿着西装，找到了新工作，最令人印象深刻的是，他有了一个新女朋友。

Because in the state he'd been in, he was seeing nobody.

因为在他所处的状态下，他没有见到任何人。

But he'd obviously been motivated to get out there and see if he could find a new partner.

但他显然有动力出去看看是否能找到新的合作伙伴。

I was absolutely delighted for him, but so astonished that we could go in a human biological system where someone has tiny lesions in the basal ganglia and has their motivation extinguished.

我为他感到非常高兴，但也令我惊讶的是，我们可以进入人类生物系统，其中某人的基底神经节有微小病变，并且他们的动机消失了。

We could go from that To recovering motivation by using a drug that we already have that affects the dopamine circuitry.

我们可以通过使用我们已有的影响多巴胺回路的药物来恢复动力。

And of course, David is really rare, this kind of bilateral in both sides of the basal ganglia being affected, tiny little strokes.

当然，大卫确实很少见，这种双侧基底神经节受到影响的、微小的中风。

This is extremely rare.

这是极其罕见的。

It's reported, and it leads to pathological apathy.

据报道，这会导致病态的冷漠。

But it turns out that apathy is really common across neurological disorders.

但事实证明，冷漠在神经系统疾病中确实很常见。

And the way we've thought about it is if a pathological process, whether it's a stroke or whether it's Alzheimer's disease or whether it's Parkinson's disease or even some inflammatory disorder affecting the nervous system like multiple sclerosis, if that pathological process is affecting this circuitry, it can lead to loss of motivation.

我们思考的方式是，如果一个病理过程，无论是中风、阿尔茨海默病、帕金森病，甚至是影响神经系统的炎症性疾病，如多发性硬化症，如果该病理过程影响了该回路，就会导致动力丧失。

And that's what we're really interested in, is to think about the circuits that are affected and also trying to deconstruct motivation in terms of what's actually going on in the brain.

这就是我们真正感兴趣的，就是思考受影响的回路，并尝试根据大脑中实际发生的情况来解构动机。

What is this circuit really doing for us that leads to this behavior we call motivated behavior?

这个回路到底为我们做了什么，导致了我们称之为动机行为的行为？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a quick break to acknowledge one of our sponsors, David.

我想稍微休息一下，向我们的赞助商之一大卫表示感谢。

David makes protein bars unlike any other.

大卫制作的蛋白质棒与众不同。

Their newest bar, the Bronze Bar, has 20 grams of protein, only 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar.

他们最新的 Bronze Bar 含有 20 克蛋白质，仅 150 卡路里，零克糖。

I have to say, these are the best-tasting protein bars I've ever had, and I've tried a lot of protein bars over the years.

我不得不说，这些是我吃过的味道最好的蛋白质棒，这些年来我尝试过很多蛋白质棒。

These new David bars have a marshmallow base and they're covered in chocolate coating, and they're absolutely incredible.

这些新的大卫巧克力棒有一个棉花糖底座，上面覆盖着巧克力涂层，它们绝对令人难以置信。

I, of course, eat regular whole foods.

当然，我经常吃天然食品。

I eat meat, chicken, fish, eggs, fruits, vegetables, et cetera.

我吃肉、鸡肉、鱼、鸡蛋、水果、蔬菜等等。

But I also make it a point to eat one or two David bars per day as a snack, which makes it easy to hit my protein goal of one gram of protein per pound of body weight, and that allows me to take in the protein I need without consuming excess calories.

但我也强调每天吃一到两块大卫棒作为零食，这使得我很容易达到每磅体重一克蛋白质的蛋白质目标，并且使我能够摄入所需的蛋白质而不消耗过多的热量。

I love all the David Bronze Bar flavors, including Cookie Dough, Caramel Chocolate, Double Chocolate, Peanut Butter Chocolate.

我喜欢大卫青铜棒的所有口味，包括饼干面团、焦糖巧克力、双重巧克力、花生酱巧克力。

They all actually taste like candy bars.

它们实际上尝起来都像棒棒糖。

Again, they're amazing.

再说一次，他们太棒了。

But again, they have no sugar, and they have 20 grams of protein with just 150 calories.

但同样，它们不含糖，并且含有 20 克蛋白质，只有 150 卡路里热量。

If you'd like to try David, you can go to davidprotein.com/huberman.

如果您想尝试 David，可以访问 david Protein.com/huberman。

Right now, David is offering a deal where if you buy four cartons, you get the fifth carton for free.

现在，大卫正在提供一项优惠，如果您购买四箱，您可以免费获得第五箱。

You can also find David on Amazon or in stores such as Target, Walmart, and Kroger.

您还可以在亚马逊或 Target、沃尔玛和克罗格等商店找到 David。

Again, to get the fifth carton for free, go to davidprotein.com/huberman.

同样，要免费获得第五箱，请访问 david Protein.com/huberman。

Today's episode is also brought to us by BetterHelp.

今天的节目也是由 BetterHelp 为我们带来的。

BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online.

BetterHelp 提供由持证治疗师完全在线进行的专业治疗。

I've been doing therapy for a long time, and while it's not always easy, every time I do a therapy session, I come away feeling better and knowing that the time was well spent.

我已经做治疗很长时间了，虽然这并不总是那么容易，但每次我做治疗时，我都会感觉更好，并且知道时间花得值。

And that's because whenever I finish a therapy session, I come away with a valuable insight or new perspective on something I'm working through, whether that's with work, with relationships in my personal life, or with my relationship to myself.

这是因为每当我完成治疗课程时，我都会对我正在经历的事情产生宝贵的见解或新的视角，无论是工作、个人生活中的关系还是我与自己的关系。

With BetterHelp, they make it extremely easy to find an expert therapist who can help provide the benefits that come through effective therapy.

通过 BetterHelp，他们可以非常轻松地找到可以帮助提供有效治疗带来的好处的专家治疗师。

They have a short questionnaire that helps match you to a therapist, and while BetterHelp has an industry-leading match rate, if you aren't happy with your match, you can switch to a different therapist at any time.

他们有一份简短的调查问卷，可以帮助您为您匹配治疗师，虽然 BetterHelp 拥有行业领先的匹配率，但如果您对匹配不满意，您可以随时更换为其他治疗师。

Also, because BetterHelp is done entirely online, it's extremely time efficient.

此外，由于 BetterHelp 完全在线完成，因此非常省时。

There's no driving to a therapist's office, looking for parking, et cetera.

无需开车去治疗师办公室、寻找停车位等。

If you would like to try BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month.

如果您想尝试 BetterHelp，请访问 betterhelp.com/huberman，第一个月可享受 10% 的折扣。

Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman.

再说一次，这是 betterhelp.com/huberman。

I'd like to drill into motivated behavior and the dopamine system, and thank you for sharing what became of David, because always nice when medicine can deliver a victory story.

我想深入研究动机行为和多巴胺系统，并感谢您分享大卫的遭遇，因为当药物可以提供胜利的故事时总是很好。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Absolutely, yeah.

绝对是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because as some people may recall, the L-DOPA for the treatment of Parkinson's had these transient improvements that sometimes can be dismaying for people, right?

因为有些人可能还记得，用于治疗帕金森氏症的左旋多巴有这些短暂的改善，有时可能会让人们感到沮丧，对吧？

People get better, and then they get worse again.

人们变得更好，然后又变得更糟。

And I'm sure there's additional progress being made there.

我确信那里正在取得更多进展。

We still need to do an episode all about Parkinson's, but we'll reserve that for another time.

我们仍然需要制作一个关于帕金森氏症的剧集，但我们会保留到另一个时间。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In thinking about motivation and the fact that there's really one system for most types of motivation, this is kind of what the David story suggests, right?

考虑到动机以及大多数类型的动机确实有一个系统这一事实，这就是大卫的故事所暗示的，对吧？

That these basal ganglia nuclei, nucleus accumbens, are underlying all sorts of motivations, to listen to music, to shower, to find a romantic partner, to work, to take care of oneself, as opposed to distributed networks for motivation.

这些基底神经节核，伏隔核，是各种动机的基础，比如听音乐、洗澡、寻找浪漫伴侣、工作、照顾自己，而不是分布式网络的动机。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's interesting in its own right, I think.

我认为这本身就很有趣。

But many people are probably familiar with feeling really motivated to do certain things but not others, even if there isn't a pain point associated with doing, I don't know, maybe somebody likes arithmetic, but they don't like literature or vice versa.

但很多人可能都熟悉这种感觉：真正有动力去做某些事情，而不是其他事情，即使没有与做相关的痛点，我不知道，也许有人喜欢算术，但他们不喜欢文学，反之亦然。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Putting aside individual variation based on family history, psychology, traumatic experiences, is it true that certain people, by virtue of the way that their dopamine system is kind of tuned up, like how willing these neurons are to fire or not fire under different circumstances-

抛开基于家族史、心理、创伤经历的个体差异，某些人是否真的会凭借多巴胺系统的调节方式，比如这些神经元在不同情况下是否愿意放电——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yep

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

are just motivated people?

只是有动机的人吗？

You see this sometimes, I've had two different bulldogs.

有时你会看到这一点，我有两只不同的斗牛犬。

The first one was like, "Let's go," and it's like and you have to really coax him along.

第一个就像，“我们走吧”，就像你必须真正哄他一起走。

The other one, "Let's go," "Okay," and just go.

另一个是“我们走吧”，“好吧”，然后就走。

Some people are like this.

有些人就是这样。

"Hey, let's go." They pop up, they go.

“嘿，我们走吧。”他们突然出现，他们走了。

Other people, more reluctant.

其他人，更不愿意。

But I think most of us are somewhere in between.

但我认为我们大多数人都处于两者之间。

So clinically and outside of the clinic, do you think that some people's dopaminergic neurons are just more willing to fire in response to everyday activities, novel activities, and the super exciting stuff?

那么，在临床和诊所之外，您是否认为某些人的多巴胺能神经元更愿意对日常活动、新奇活动和超级令人兴奋的东西做出反应？

And I have a very specific reason for asking this, but I'll keep it quiet for now because I really want to understand, is there a continuum of motivation?

我问这个问题有一个非常具体的原因，但我现在会保持沉默，因为我真的想了解，是否存在连续的动机？

And if so, can it exist both between individuals and within individuals?

如果是这样，它是否可以同时存在于个体之间和个体内部？

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

So taking your first question, it turns out that this circuitry we're talking about, it's called the mesolimbic circuitry, that links the basal ganglia to the frontal lobes, is almost like a final common pathway for motivation signals to engage with the action systems of the brain.

因此，就你的第一个问题而言，事实证明，我们正在谈论的这个电路，它被称为中脑边缘电路，将基底神经节连接到额叶，几乎就像动机信号与大脑动作系统交互的最终共同路径。

So it could be hunger, it could be thirst, it could be sex.

所以这可能是饥饿，可能是口渴，也可能是性。

These are primary motivation signals that many animals have.

这些是许多动物都具有的主要动机信号。

But as you said, there are other motivating signals that we may also want to engage with.

但正如您所说，我们可能还想参与其他激励信号。

We may have other goals, whether it's arithmetic, or to learn a new language, or to go out into the park, whatever it is.

我们可能有其他目标，无论是算术，还是学习一门新语言，或者去公园，无论是什么。

Now, how those different types of motivation signals are weighted or valued within our brains to engage or not engage this circuitry to lead to action is actually a very, very interesting area.

现在，如何在我们的大脑中对这些不同类型的动机信号进行加权或评估，以参与或不参与该电路以导致行动，这实际上是一个非常非常有趣的领域。

So one thing that we've learnt is even apathy might be in different domains.

所以我们了解到的一件事是，冷漠也可能存在于不同的领域。

The research in this area started with behavioral apathy.

该领域的研究始于行为冷漠。

What we can measure.

我们可以衡量什么。

Is someone inert or are they active doing something?

某人是惰性的还是积极地做某事？

Then other kinds of work suggested there might also be social apathy.

然后其他类型的研究表明也可能存在社交冷漠。

We might know colleagues who seem to be very, very motivated at work, but they don't want to engage with other people or do things like go to a party or something like that.

我们可能认识一些同事，他们在工作中似乎非常非常有动力，但他们不想与其他人交往或做诸如参加聚会之类的事情。

There may also be emotional apathy.

也可能存在情感冷漠。

So there are people who seem to have very blunted responses to things that you and I might either find, something that we want to congratulate people for or feel sad about if they had an issue.

因此，有些人似乎对你和我可能发现的事情反应非常迟钝，我们想要祝贺人们，或者在他们遇到问题时感到悲伤。

These people seem to not have that kind of range of motivational responses.

这些人似乎没有那种广泛的动机反应。

And some people argued that there's also cognitive apathy.

有些人认为还有认知冷漠。

So whereas someone might be apathetic to do something physical, they might not necessarily be apathetic for doing something cognitive, being curious about the world, reading the newspaper, finding out what's going on in the world.

因此，尽管有人可能对做体力活动漠不关心，但他们不一定对做一些认知活动、对世界感到好奇、阅读报纸、了解世界上正在发生的事情漠不关心。

And there may be dissociations.

并且可能会出现分裂。

So someone could be socially apathetic but cognitively very highly motivated.

因此，某人可能在社交上冷漠，但在认知上却非常积极。

So how does that happen?

那么这是怎么发生的呢？

How do these different domains vary if there's one final common system?

如果有一个最终的通用系统，这些不同的领域有何不同？

And of course, this is where we have to think about the fact that brain circuits are complicated, and the kinds of signals that are being developed for behavior, cognition, social interaction, or emotion are being formulated in different parts of the brain, even though they might funnel through this basal ganglia system to engage the action systems in the frontal lobe.

当然，这就是我们必须考虑这样一个事实：大脑回路是复杂的，并且正在为行为、认知、社交互动或情感而开发的各种信号正在大脑的不同部分中形成，尽管它们可能会通过基底神经节系统来参与额叶的动作系统。

And even more granular, if we want to get to that, whether you want to learn a new language or you want to do arithmetic or go to the park or whatever it is, how do you weight these different motivation signals?

更具体地说，如果我们想要做到这一点，无论你是想学习一门新语言还是想做算术或去公园或其他什么，你如何权衡这些不同的动机信号？

So one way we've thought about this is, let's imagine today, it's a beautiful day out there.

所以我们思考这个问题的一种方式是，让我们想象一下今天，这是美好的一天。

What are the things you could do?

你可以做哪些事情？

And I'm sure, Andrew, you could give me 20 things you could do.

我确信，安德鲁，你可以给我 20 件你能做的事情。

But you can't do them all at once.

但你不能一次完成所有这些。

So somehow you have to prioritize what's the thing that you value most.

因此，你必须以某种方式优先考虑你最看重的事情。

And the way we conceive of this is a sort of a neuroeconomic decision-making, where you look at those 20 things and you go, "Okay, how rewarding do I think each of these things are?" And then you also think, "Well, how effortful is that going to be?" And it could be physical effort, it could be cognitive effort, social effort, emotional effort, whatever it is.

我们的构想方式是一种神经经济决策，你会看到这 20 件事，然后你会想，“好吧，我认为每件事有多大回报？”然后你也会想，“那么，这需要付出多大的努力呢？”它可以是体力上的努力，也可以是认知上的努力、社交上的努力、情感上的努力，无论是什么。

And out of that kind of system where you do a calculation, you will find the thing for you that you will value most given the level of effort required.

在你进行计算的那种系统中，你会找到你最看重的东西，考虑到所需的努力程度。

And that's what emerges as your motivated behavior at that time.

这就是你当时的动机行为。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Do you think people do that computation consciously?

你认为人们有意识地进行计算吗？

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

I don't think they have to do it.

我认为他们不必这样做。

We could do it consciously, right?

我们可以有意识地做到这一点，对吗？

If I-

If I-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because I don't wake up, I look at my schedule and I go, "I have to do this, this, and this." I actually schedule my workouts.

因为我没有醒来，所以我看了看我的日程安排，然后说：“我必须做这个，这个，还有这个。”我实际上安排了我的锻炼。

I schedule time with others and things.

我安排时间与他人和事物相处。

But it's sort of the constellation of things in my life.

但这是我生活中的一系列事情。

I'm not doing a very conscious weighting of this versus that.

我并没有非常有意识地权衡这个与那个。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

No.

不。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Although occasionally when there's a conflict in scheduling, I have to select-

虽然偶尔当日程安排发生冲突时，我必须选择-

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Of course

当然

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

this is more valuable to me than that.

这对我来说比那更有价值。

But it's not something that I generally sit back and think, and I probably should, we probably all should, sit back and think, "Okay, what is the best use of my time?

但这不是我通常会坐下来思考的事情，我可能应该，我们可能都应该坐下来思考，“好吧，最好地利用我的时间是什么？

Effort, reward, payoff."

Effort, reward, payoff."

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But we sort of just go about life.

但我们只是继续生活。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

And I think what you're really getting me towards discussing is the fact that each behavior has a kind of activation hill that we have to cross to think, "Yeah, I could start this." So for some people, let's say learning a new language is a mountain.

我认为你真正让我讨论的是这样一个事实，即每种行为都有一种激活山，我们必须跨越它才能思考，“是的，我可以开始这个。”因此，对于某些人来说，学习一门新语言是一座大山。

That's a huge kind of effort to put in.

这是一个巨大的努力。

Whereas for other people, it's barely a mound.

而对于其他人来说，这只是一个土堆。

I don't think of that as a big burden, a big activation hill that I've got to cross before I get there.

我不认为这是一个很大的负担，也不是我到达那里之前必须跨越的一个大的激活山。

So there's the activation barrier before I even think of starting, and these things are not necessarily consciously being considered.

所以在我想开始之前就存在激活障碍，而这些事情不一定有意识地被考虑到。

It's just you have these biases because you've got experiences.

只是你有这些偏见，因为你有经验。

The fact, "Hey, I wasn't that good at learning Spanish.

事实上，“嘿，我不太擅长学习西班牙语。

Do I really want to spend a lot of energy in learning French?" Those biases add up and affect the way you do that calculation we were talking about, reward versus effort.

我真的要花很多精力学习法语吗？”这些偏见加起来会影响你进行我们正在讨论的计算（奖励与努力）的方式。

And essentially, that's a very important way, I think, that we make a decision, and much of that could be subconscious.

从本质上讲，我认为这是我们做出决定的一种非常重要的方式，其中大部分可能是潜意识的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'll tell two brief anecdotes-

我要讲两个简短的轶事——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

if I may, to set the texture for the next question.

如果可以的话，为下一个问题设置纹理。

Years ago, I was at a PhD thesis at Stanford.

几年前，我在斯坦福大学写博士论文。

A student, I'll just name her because she did a wonderful job in her thesis.

作为一名学生，我只称呼她为她，因为她的论文做得非常出色。

Her name was Lauren Case.

她的名字叫劳伦·凯斯。

She was not my student.

She was not my student.

I attended because she was working on neural regeneration, and she had screened an enormous number of molecules for their ability to inhibit or promote neural regeneration.

我参加是因为她正在研究神经再生，她筛选了大量分子抑制或促进神经再生的能力。

Super important problem, as you and I both know, that still hasn't been solved.

正如你我都知道的，超级重要的问题仍然没有得到解决。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it was really striking how many molecules she had evaluated.

她评估的分子数量之多确实令人震惊。

And I will never forget her advisor's introduction.

我永远不会忘记她导师的介绍。

He said, "One of the best things about Lauren Is that she has very low activation energy.

他说：“劳伦最好的事情之一就是她的激活能非常低。

Meaning there's the opportunity to do an experiment, she'd get up and do the experiment and say, "Ah, that was an interesting molecule," move to the next one.

这意味着有机会做一个实验，她会站起来做实验并说，“啊，那是一个有趣的分子，”然后转向下一个。

And it occurred to me then that having low activation energy, provided the thing that you do doesn't get you injured or killed, is really a spectacular thing in life, because you just get a lot more life out of days lived.

然后我突然想到，如果你所做的事情不会让你受伤或死亡，那么拥有低激活能确实是生活中一件了不起的事情，因为你会在生活中获得更多的生命。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So you kind of wonder about the Lauren cases of the world.

所以你有点想知道世界各地的劳伦案例。

Are these the people where somebody says, "Hey, we need to do this thing," like take out the recycle and it's a ton with the roommate, something back when.

这些人是不是有人会说，“嘿，我们需要做这件事”，比如拿出回收品，然后和室友一起做很多事情，回到过去。

And it's like, "Okay, I'll do that later." There's so much energy lost in the deliberation-

就像，“好吧，我稍后再做。”在深思熟虑中损失了太多精力——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

in the feeling like the effort-reward trade-off.

感觉像是努力与回报的权衡。

You don't want to waste your time doing things, but you also don't want to waste your time thinking about whether or not you're wasting your time.

你不想浪费时间做事，但你也不想浪费时间思考自己是否在浪费时间。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

So let me take you up on that, because after seeing David, we thought about exactly this problem, and we got a bunch of Oxford students.

所以让我来谈谈这个问题，因为在见到大卫之后，我们思考了这个问题，我们有一群牛津学生。

And believe it or not, at Oxford, just like Stanford, I'm sure, there's a whole range of motivation amongst the students.

不管你相信与否，我确信在牛津大学，就像斯坦福大学一样，学生们有着各种各样的动力。

There are people who are highly motivated, the Laurens, and then there are people who are actually surprisingly apathetic.

有些人工作积极性很高，比如劳伦夫妇，但也有些人实际上出奇地冷漠。

They might be very smart people, but they have high activation energy levels.

他们可能是非常聪明的人，但他们的活化能水平很高。

They need to cross that barrier to do something.

他们需要跨越这个障碍来做某事。

And we put them into the MRI scanner, and we looked at their brain activity when they were given these choices.

我们将他们放入核磁共振扫描仪中，观察他们在做出这些选择时的大脑活动。

Is this option, with this much reward, worth this much physical effort?

这个选择，有这么多的回报，值得付出这么多的体力吗？

You just say yes or no. Would you do it or not?

You just say yes or no. Would you do it or not?

We could then look across this neuroeconomic space by parametrically changing the level of reward that we're offering and parametrically changing the level of effort.

然后，我们可以通过参数化地改变我们提供的奖励水平和参数化地改变努力水平来审视这个神经经济空间。

And it turned out, just as we'd found in patients, the apathetic students were all willing to work for high rewards, but they weren't willing to work for low rewards.

事实证明，正如我们在病人身上发现的那样，冷漠的学生都愿意为高回报而工作，但他们不愿意为低回报而工作。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Interesting.

有趣。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Now, in the brain, what we find is that the ventral parts of the basal ganglia, ventral striatum nucleus accumbens, is active, as well as the parts medial frontal areas, frontal lobe areas, in these healthy students when they're simply making the decision, is this option worth the reward for this much effort?

现在，在大脑中，我们发现基底神经节的腹侧部分，伏隔核腹侧纹状体，以及额叶内侧区域、额叶区域，在这些健康的学生中，当他们只是简单地做出决定时，这个选择值得付出如此多的努力吗？

So they're not doing anything.

所以他们什么也没做。

They're just thinking about it.

他们只是在思考而已。

And we thought, great.

And we thought, great.

This is really fantastic because now we have convergence from the stroke patient that we saw with the basal ganglia lesions who lost motivation, and now we can see that healthy individuals, when they're having to make this decision, show activation in the same area that was lost in David, as well as the frontal lobes.

这真是太棒了，因为现在我们看到中风患者的基底神经节病变失去了动力，现在我们可以看到健康的人在必须做出这个决定时，在大卫失去的同一区域以及额叶中表现出激活。

But the paradox here was that we found greater activity in those regions in the students who are apathetic compared to the students who are motivated.

但这里的悖论是，我们发现与积极主动的学生相比，冷漠的学生的这些区域更活跃。

And we were not expecting that.

我们没想到会这样。

We thought if you lack motivation, your brain activity when you're being asked to do this would just be lower.

我们认为，如果你缺乏动力，当你被要求这样做时，你的大脑活动就会降低。

So the way we have resolved this problem is to think, actually, this is showing us something very important.

所以我们解决这个问题的方法是思考，实际上，这向我们展示了一些非常重要的东西。

It's showing us that apathetic people use more brain energy when they're making this decision.

它向我们表明，冷漠的人在做出决定时会使用更多的大脑能量。

They have a bigger activation energy barrier to overcome because when they're making that decision, the brain is consuming more energy.

他们需要克服更大的激活能量障碍，因为当他们做出决定时，大脑会消耗更多的能量。

It's consuming more glucose when it's doing that.

当它这样做时，它会消耗更多的葡萄糖。

Now, of course, in the scanner, in this sort of experimental situation, everyone's willing to do the task.

当然，现在在扫描仪中，在这种实验情况下，每个人都愿意完成这项任务。

They're making those decisions.

他们正在做出这些决定。

But imagine these people at home.

但想象一下这些人在家里。

If you're confronted with, "Oh my goodness, I'm going to have to work hard just to decide whether I should do this option or not," maybe I just won't do it.

如果你面临着“天哪，我必须努力工作才能决定是否应该做这个选择”，也许我就不会这样做。

And that's, I think, a really important insight into what you might do to energize motivation in people who might be apathetic.

我认为，这是一个非常重要的见解，可以帮助你了解如何激发那些可能冷漠的人的积极性。

Because it's showing us that that activation barrier that I was talking about, in a way, exists in the brain.

因为它向我们展示了我所说的激活屏障在某种程度上存在于大脑中。

Physiologically, you can show that these people are working harder to make the same decision compared to motivated people.

从生理上来说，你可以证明，与积极主动的人相比，这些人为了做出同样的决定更加努力。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Fascinating experiment, by the way.

顺便说一句，这是一个令人着迷的实验。

So elegant in its simplicity, but the paradoxical piece-

简约中如此优雅，但矛盾的是——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

of more activity in these dopaminergic circuits in the apathetic folks-

冷漠的人的这些多巴胺能回路有更多的活动-

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

tells me, and correct me if I'm wrong, that there's a cost to thinking about the effort required, plus the cost of the actual effort required.

告诉我，如果我错了，请纠正我，考虑所需的努力是有成本的，再加上所需的实际努力的成本。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That compounds-

That compounds-

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and puts some people out of the game.

并将一些人排除在游戏之外。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Exactly.

正是如此。

So, Lauren, the student you were talking about, has low activation energy.

所以，劳伦，你所说的学生，活化能很低。

She obviously doesn't need to burn a lot of brain fuel in terms of thinking, "I can do this.

她显然不需要消耗大量的脑力来思考“我能做到这一点。

I'm going to do it." And she reminds me of something that happened to me.

我会这么做的。”她让我想起了发生在我身上的一件事。

When I was a PhD student, I was in Oxford, and we would sit around having tea, thinking about great studies we could do.

当我还是一名博士生时，我在牛津，我们会坐在一起喝茶，思考我们可以做的伟大研究。

Nothing really happened.

真的什么都没发生。

And then I came to be a postdoc at MIT and was surrounded by these highly motivated people.

然后我成为麻省理工学院的博士后，周围都是这些积极进取的人。

And I can remember we'd have the same kind of discussion, and then one of them would go, "Yeah.

我记得我们进行了同样的讨论，然后其中一个人会说：“是的。

Well, let's do that tonight." And I'd go, "Tonight?" And that was the level of difference.

好吧，我们今晚就这么做吧。”我会说，“今晚？”这就是差异的程度。

It just blew my mind that there were people who could just go, "Right.

让我大吃一惊的是，有人可以直接说：“对。

Let's do it."

让我们开始吧。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

And I think that's been a real lesson for me, that you can achieve things if you think in this way.

我认为这对我来说是一个真正的教训，如果你以这种方式思考，你就能取得成就。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, the other anecdote, I'll keep this brief, is a slightly humorous one, but it's designed to illustrate a point, which is I try not to spend too much time on social media unless I'm actively learning on there, because I do find things that are really interesting and educate me.

好吧，我会简短地讲另一件轶事，它有点幽默，但它旨在说明一点，那就是我尽量不要在社交媒体上花太多时间，除非我在那里积极学习，因为我确实发现了真正有趣并教育我的东西。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Sometimes just for entertainment.

有时只是为了娱乐。

But there's a post I came across, and it's a little parody skit where a woman walks into the room and her husband or boyfriend is playing a video game, and she says, "Hey, do you mind hanging up those pictures that are in the hall?

但我看到了一篇帖子，这是一个滑稽的小品，一个女人走进房间，她的丈夫或男朋友正在玩电子游戏，她说：“嘿，你介意把大厅里的那些照片挂起来吗？

They've been there for a few days." And he's like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." And then she walks out, she shakes her head, and she has an idea.

他们已经在那里呆了几天了。”他说，“是啊，是啊，是啊。”然后她走了出去，摇摇头，然后她有了一个主意。

She walks back in and she says, "Hey, do you mind showing me how to hang those pictures in the hallway?

她走回来说道：“嘿，你介意教我如何把这些照片挂在走廊上吗？

I'd love to learn how." And he's like, boom, and he launches into...

我很想知道怎么做。”然后他就说，砰，然后他就开始了……

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So she's tapped into a component of his motivational circuitry-

所以她利用了他激励回路的一个组成部分——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

where the opportunity to teach clearly gets him around this activation energy thing.

教学的机会显然让他绕过了激活能量的事情。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Right, yeah.

对，是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

All of a sudden, the activation energy required to do the same thing just drops to zero.

突然之间，做同样的事情所需的活化能就降到零。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

And it's a very good example, because one thing you got to think about is how can you change that barrier for people?

这是一个非常好的例子，因为你必须考虑的一件事是如何改变人们的障碍？

Either you make the effort less, let's say you got a task to do, you could break it down into subcomponents, so the activation level doesn't seem quite so formidable, or you could change the incentive And this is what happened in your example, right?

要么减少工作量，假设您有一项任务要做，您可以将其分解为子组件，这样激活级别看起来就不那么强大，或者您可以改变激励措施这就是您的示例中发生的情况，对吗？

The incentives change because now the guy is thinking, "Ah, now the reward here is to show her how I do this.

激励措施发生了变化，因为现在这个人在想，“啊，现在这里的奖励是向她展示我是如何做到这一点的。

That's the thing I will get the pleasure from, the reward from." Right?

这就是我将从中得到的快乐、回报。”对吗？

So I think that's the other insight we got, is how do you change people's motivation in a practical way?

所以我认为这是我们得到的另一个见解，即如何以实际的方式改变人们的动机？

Well, you have to think, if this is really happening in the brain, that you're making decisions about whether this reward is worth the effort, you can either increase the reward or change it in some way in terms of something that's meaningful for the person, or you change the effort required to accomplish maybe part of the task or perhaps start, just initiate the task.

好吧，你必须想一想，如果这真的发生在大脑中，你正在决定这个奖励是否值得付出努力，你可以增加奖励或以某种方式改变它对人有意义的事情，或者你改变完成任务的一部分或开始，只是启动任务所需的努力。

And often, starting can be a huge motivational pull.

通常，开始可以产生巨大的动力。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This gets to some sticky territory around the actual versus the perceived utility of lots of things that are on the internet, including in the health and, dare I say, wellness space, which is the following.

这涉及到互联网上许多事物的实际效用与感知效用之间的一些棘手领域，包括健康领域，以及我敢说的健康领域，如下所示。

There's this idea that if you do, for instance, a hard run or a hard workout, that you are teaching yourself how to do hard things that can translate to doing hard things in other domains.

有一种观点认为，如果你进行艰苦的跑步或艰苦的锻炼，那么你就是在教自己如何做困难的事情，这些事情可以转化为在其他领域做困难的事情。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So as psychologists, neuroscientists, clinicians, we talk about the domain specificity, but that's just nerdy speak for like-

因此，作为心理学家、神经科学家、临床医生，我们谈论领域特异性，但这只是书呆子的说法——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

does one thing translate to another circumstance?

一件事会转化为另一种情况吗？

Are you teaching yourself an algorithm of, I did a hard thing this morning, I did the cold shower I don't like, I did the workout I may or may not have wanted to do, so now I'm more empowered.

你是否在教自己一个算法：今天早上我做了一件困难的事情，我洗了我不喜欢的冷水澡，我做了我可能想做也可能不想做的锻炼，所以现在我更有力量了。

Or, and I've thought about this quite a bit, or do we have a finite amount of energy and the most rational approach is to think, okay, what's actually going to provide me the most benefit today?

或者，我已经思考了很多这个问题，或者我们的精力是有限的，最理性的方法是思考，好吧，今天什么实际上会给我带来最大的好处？

Like, can we really get momentum and understanding of our underlying motivational circuitries, or is it the case that we're deluding ourselves?

比如，我们真的能获得动力并理解我们潜在的动机回路吗？还是我们在欺骗自己？

I'm not attempting to undercut a lot of content I've done previously, but I've had plenty of hard workouts and then gotten to the other thing I needed to do and went like, "I don't want to do this.

我并不是试图削弱我之前做过的很多内容，但我进行了大量艰苦的锻炼，然后开始做我需要做的另一件事，然后说道：“我不想这样做。

I'm tired from that workout this morning." But we are also familiar with the fact that if something really intriguing or exciting to us is presented to us, suddenly it's like we're a different human being.

今天早上的锻炼让我很累。”但我们也熟悉这样一个事实：如果我们看到一些真正有趣或令人兴奋的东西，突然间我们就像是一个不同的人。

It's a complete state change.

这是一个完整的状态变化。

So I'm curious, I'm not asking you to editorialize about the health and wellness space, but more globally, can we teach ourselves to lower our activation energy in a way that can serve us well across the board?

所以我很好奇，我不是要求你对健康和保健领域进行社论，而是在全球范围内，我们能否教会自己以一种可以全面服务于我们的方式降低我们的激活能？

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

I think we can because it turns out, obviously, some of these things that people use psychologically to improve their motivation can be framed in exactly the way I put it to you, that what we're doing here is trying to either increase the reward or change the nature of the incentive.

我认为我们可以，因为事实证明，很明显，人们在心理上用来提高动机的一些东西可以完全按照我告诉你的方式来构建，我们在这里所做的就是试图增加奖励或改变激励的性质。

If it's something novel and salient that you think, oh, this is really interesting, it's rewarding to me, or we reduce the effort.

如果你认为这是一些新颖而突出的东西，哦，这真的很有趣，这对我来说是有益的，或者我们减少努力。

So just using this simple principle might be enough for someone to think about how to do it.

因此，仅仅使用这个简单的原则就足以让人们思考如何去做。

Planning out your day or week in advance, for some people, makes life better because every time they're having to make a decision on the fly, if they're just doing it without planning it out, means that it's costing, right?

对于某些人来说，提前计划好一天或一周可以让生活变得更好，因为每次他们必须匆忙做出决定时，如果他们只是在没有计划好的情况下做决定，就意味着要付出代价，对吗？

Every decision has a cost in terms, as we've seen, the brain having to put in, invest fuel to make that decision.

正如我们所见，每个决定都有成本，大脑必须投入精力才能做出决定。

So if you're having to do that every time you make a decision, that can seem very burdensome.

因此，如果您每次做出决定时都必须这样做，那可能会显得非常繁重。

Whereas if you did it once in a big way, where you planned it out for the day or the week, maybe the costs in terms of the activation energy required for the brain is much lower for you if you do that.

然而，如果你大规模地做了一次，你计划了一天或一周，那么如果你这样做的话，大脑所需的激活能量的成本可能会低得多。

So it's a simple thing to do.

所以这是一件简单的事情。

Dividing up a task.

Dividing up a task.

Let's say you're given a project by your manager.

假设你的经理给了你一个项目。

It's going to take you three months to accomplish.

你需要三个月的时间才能完成。

It seems absolutely formidable because you have no idea of where to start.

这看起来绝对令人畏惧，因为你不知道从哪里开始。

What if you could break it down into smaller tasks which bring down that mountain, the activation energy required to get that small thing done?

如果你能把它分解成更小的任务，从而降低完成那件小事所需的激活能量，会怎么样？

Let's say, first of all, let's research one area of this and get a handle on that.

首先，让我们研究一下这个领域并掌握它。

And if we get that done, this is a sort of if-then kind of construct.

如果我们做到了这一点，这就是一种“如果-那么”的结构。

If we get that done, we can then move on to a second piece of work.

如果我们完成了这一点，我们就可以继续进行第二项工作。

It would also help if your manager said, "Well done for getting that bit done." Right?

如果你的经理说：“干得好，完成了这一点，也会有帮助。”对吗？

That's also a motivation pull to think, yeah, actually, I don't need to get the whole piece done to get the reward of somebody identified that as a positive thing to have done.

这也是一种动力，让我思考，是的，实际上，我不需要完成整个工作才能获得某人认为这是一件积极的事情的奖励。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I would love to see an experiment done where the perception of one's effort to do something can be separated from the actual effort and really get to the meat of whether overthinking or even thinking at all about the effort takes us away from having more, quote-unquote, motivation or even better performance.

我很乐意看到这样一个实验：对一个人做某事的努力的看法可以与实际的努力分开，并真正了解过度思考或什至根本不思考努力是否会让我们失去更多、动力甚至更好的表现。

And I haven't had time to think this through, but as you were describing David and his transformation and this experiment on the undergraduates of valuing different outcomes, I wonder if you could put somebody on a stationary bike and put them in a virtual environment and measure the effort required to climb a hill.

我还没有时间仔细思考这一点，但当你描述大卫和他的转变以及对本科生重视不同结果的实验时，我想知道你是否可以让某人骑上固定自行车并将他们置于虚拟环境中并测量爬山所需的努力。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And you could adjust the difficulty.

而且你可以调整难度。

But you change the perception of how steep that hill is, right?

但你改变了对那座山有多陡的看法，对吧？

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

If we could translate that to the real world, like to learn something, to learn how to tango, for instance.

如果我们可以将其转化为现实世界，比如学习一些东西，例如学习如何探戈。

I have Argentine relatives.

我有阿根廷亲戚。

It'd be nice to learn how to tango.

学习如何探戈就好了。

That's a pretty cool skill, right?

这是一个很酷的技能，对吧？

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There's a lot required.

There's a lot required.

You've got to go to the class.

你必须去上课。

You've got to drive there, find the teacher.

你必须开车去那里找到老师。

If you're the one who's supposed to lead, then it's especially embarrassing if you can't do it.

如果你是应该领导的人，那么如果你做不到，那就特别尴尬。

So there's a-

So there's a-

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

It sounds like you've already started.

听起来你已经开始了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, I've started this process.

是的，我已经开始这个过程了。

But That's very different than the actual work involved in doing it, which in most cases turns out to be much lower than the perceived effort.

但这与执行此操作所涉及的实际工作有很大不同，在大多数情况下，实际工作量远低于感知的工作量。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So is there a way to tease these things apart?

那么有没有办法把这些东西分开呢？

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

I think not in exactly the way you suggested about the treadmill and changing the perception of the gradient, let's say, that's coming.

我认为不完全是你建议的跑步机和改变梯度感知的方式，比方说，这即将到来。

But wouldn't that be interesting?

但这不是很有趣吗？

Because what we would then get is subjective value of effort versus the real effort, the physiological effort, whatever it is, oxygen consumption, the glucose required, the lactic acid that's building up, all of those parameters, and seeing how that diverges.

因为我们将得到的是努力的主观价值与真实努力、生理努力，无论是什么，耗氧量，所需的葡萄糖，正在积累的乳酸，所有这些参数，并看看它们如何变化。

But I bet you we would find that there's a huge variation in subjective valuation.

但我敢打赌，我们会发现主观估值存在巨大差异。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it could go either way.

两种情况都可能发生。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

It could, yeah.

It could, yeah.

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We have a good friend, Ken Rideout, who's a very famous, within the marathoning community, endurance athlete, and he does this mind game on his opponents when he runs, and he wins races in the Gobi Desert at age 50 plus.

我们有一个好朋友，肯·赖德奥特（Ken Rideout），他是马拉松界非常有名的耐力运动员，他在跑步时对对手进行心理游戏，并在 50 多岁的时候在戈壁沙漠中赢得了比赛。

He'll run up next to his competitors, this is an actual event, and he'll take his earbuds out and he'll say, "I don't know what it is.

他会跑到他的竞争对手旁边，这是一场真实的比赛，他会拿出耳机，然后说：“我不知道这是什么。

I never get tired." And then he wins.

我永远不会疲倦。”然后他就赢了。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And these are guys that he couldn't catch up to, barely, until then, and he dominates them.

直到那时他才勉强赶上这些人，但他统治了他们。

So there's a psychological thing happening in both of them, right?

所以他们两个身上都发生了心理上的事情，对吗？

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Sure.

当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I think he does it as much for himself as he does for them.

我认为他这样做既是为了自己，也是为了他们。

And many competitive athletes have talked about when they see a great competitor starting to fail, how it gives them this sense that they have a booster pack.

许多竞技运动员都谈到，当他们看到一个伟大的竞争对手开始失败时，这如何让他们感觉自己有一个补充包。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it's not the nicest example, because I'm not big on motivating through competition, per se, but it says something about our perceived effort of our own, whether or not we're overcoming the challenge.

这不是最好的例子，因为我本身并不热衷于通过竞争来激励，但它说明了我们自己的感知努力，无论我们是否克服了挑战。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And if we see someone else falling into a psychological trap like that-

如果我们看到其他人陷入这样的心理陷阱——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

presumably it allows us to access the inverse of that psychological trap.

据推测，它可以让我们进入那个心理陷阱的反面。

It's like we get a boost.

就好像我们得到了提升。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

And I think what you've said is within the individual, you can change your subjective valuation of the same effort.

我认为你所说的是在个人内部，你可以改变你对同样努力的主观评价。

You're running on the Gobi Desert, right?

你是在戈壁滩上奔跑吧？

It's the same effort you've been putting in for miles and miles, and suddenly you have subjectively valued this thing as less effort-

这与你已经付出了很多英里的努力一样，突然你主观上认为这件事不那么费力——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

...

...

and you're going to now get that booster.

现在你将获得那个助推器。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Wild, right?

狂野吧？

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Well-

嗯-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It shouldn't work in terms of the laws of physics and chemistry and biology.

从物理、化学和生物学定律来看，它不应该起作用。

The hill is the hill.

The hill is the hill.

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And of course, it speaks to the brain's critical role.

当然，它也说明了大脑的关键作用。

It suggests that there's a cost all along that you weren't acknowledging.

这表明存在着您一直没有承认的成本。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Like you're removing some additional effort as opposed to getting more-

就像你正在消除一些额外的努力而不是获得更多-

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

energy from the sky.

energy from the sky.

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

You're not going to get that.

你不会明白的。

So it is also the way you framed it for yourself, right?

所以这也是你为自己设计的方式，对吗？

The activation energy required to do this, to get that little bit more from this.

执行此操作所需的活化能，以便从中获得更多的能量。

So I think this simple principle actually takes us quite a long way.

所以我认为这个简单的原则实际上让我们走了很长的路。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You had a book that was tremendously successful.

你的书非常成功。

We'll put a link to it in the show note captions.

我们将在节目注释标题中放置指向它的链接。

And it was tremendously successful because it's an awesome book.

它取得了巨大的成功，因为它是一本很棒的书。

Tons of learning there, super interesting.

那里有很多知识，超级有趣。

The first book of its kind in a long while to really educate people on the brain and its workings.

这是很长一段时间以来第一本真正教育人们了解大脑及其运作原理的书。

There have been others, but yours really did spectacularly well for its content.

还有其他的，但你的内容确实做得非常好。

But you also won a big award for this, right?

但你也因此获得了大奖，对吧？

Do you ever think about that in terms of how hitting the pinnacle of something impacts our perception of the next effort and the next potential outcome?

你有没有想过，达到某件事的顶峰会如何影响我们对下一步努力和下一个潜在结果的看法？

We think of this as, quote-unquote, "reward prediction error," but this has broad implications for whether constant scrolling on social media is actually adjusting dopamine circuits in a way that makes rewards in the real world less enticing, or whether success in one domain truly leads to confidence and success and lower activation energy in another domain, or whether or not it puts a certain pressure on us because the rewards might not feel as great.

我们认为这就是“奖励预测错误”，但这对社交媒体上的持续滚动是否实际上是在调整多巴胺回路，从而使现实世界中的奖励变得不那么诱人，或者在一个领域的成功是否真正会带来信心和成功以及在另一个领域的较低激活能量，或者它是否给我们带来一定的压力，因为奖励可能感觉不那么好，具有广泛的影响。

I'm not trying to undercut any of your own relationship to this book, but what is the relationship between prior rewards or failures, memory, and motivation?

我并不是想削弱你与这本书的关系，但是之前的奖励或失败、记忆和动机之间有什么关系？

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

So we've talked about this calculation about reward and effort.

我们已经讨论了关于奖励和努力的计算。

We've gone into that in some detail.

我们已经对此进行了一些详细讨论。

Once the behavior is initiated, it's not just initiation, it's also persevering to make sure we get to the end.

一旦行为开始，这不仅仅是开始，而且是坚持下去，以确保我们能够到达终点。

And then at the end, if we get to the outcome of what we wanted to achieve, we can have a hedonic, pleasureful experience.

最后，如果我们达到了我们想要实现的结果，我们就能获得一种享乐、愉快的体验。

That's what we wanted.

That's what we wanted.

Or we could have an aversive response.

或者我们可能会产生厌恶的反应。

We put all this effort in, and actually it's turned out it was an terrible decision.

我们付出了所有的努力，但事实证明这是一个糟糕的决定。

And we've all made those, right?

我们都做到了，对吧？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

Not me.

不是我。

Oh, of course.

哦，当然。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Right.

对。

And the outcome, whether it's a great pleasureful, hedonic response or whether it turned out to be absolutely awful and very aversive, obviously is graded.

而结果，无论是一种非常愉快、享乐的反应，还是结果是绝对可怕和非常令人厌恶的，显然都是分级的。

But that graded outcome is important for learning, what neuroscientists call reinforcement learning.

但这种分级结果对于学习很重要，神经科学家称之为强化学习。

And that learning comes back to affect the way we make that decision I was talking about.

这种学习又会影响我们做出我所说的决定的方式。

Which of the 20 things I could do today do I prioritize?

今天我可以做的 20 件事中，我优先考虑哪一件？

Because if it turned out that I prioritized one which turned out to be absolutely awful, next time it's coming up in my menu of things I could do, I am going to devalue that.

因为如果我优先考虑了一件绝对糟糕的事情，那么下次它出现在我可以做的事情菜单中时，我就会贬低它的价值。

So my subjective evaluation of that particular choice would be much lower.

所以我对那个特定选择的主观评价会低得多。

The learning mechanism is really important for choices in the future.

学习机制对于以后的选择确实很重要。

You were talking about how previous experiences affect your motivation to do things.

您正在谈论以前的经历如何影响您做事的动力。

Well, my motivation to do that terrible thing is really going to be low next time it comes up.

好吧，下次再出现那件可怕的事情时，我做这件事的动力真的会很低。

So I might pick something completely new, perhaps something which gives me something novel and salient that I haven't experienced before.

所以我可能会选择一些全新的东西，也许能给我一些我以前从未经历过的新颖和显着的东西。

It might turn out to be a bad thing, but I don't know.

这可能会是一件坏事，但我不知道。

I'm going to give it a go.

我要尝试一下。

So I think learning is a really important mechanism in motivation.

所以我认为学习是一个非常重要的激励机制。

And of course, guess what?

当然，你猜怎么着？

The evidence suggests that dopamine is not only important in terms of this decision-making about whether this is worth the effort or not, it's also very important in the human brain and in animal brains for learning from previous actions.

有证据表明，多巴胺不仅对于决定是否值得付出努力很重要，而且对于人类大脑和动物大脑从以前的行为中学习也非常重要。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。

I'm excited to share that AG1 has just launched their newest formulation, AG1 Pro.

我很高兴与大家分享，AG1 刚刚推出了他们的最新配方 AG1 Pro。

AG1 Pro takes the clinically backed AG1 formula, which is a blend of vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and adaptogens, and adds three important new ingredients, creatine monohydrate, calcium HMB, and zinc carnosine.

AG1 Pro 采用经过临床支持的 AG1 配方，该配方是维生素、矿物质、益生菌和适应原的混合物，并添加了三种重要的新成分：一水肌酸、HMB 钙和肌肽锌。

Each serving has five grams of creatine monohydrate to support muscle strength and performance, as well as brain health, calcium HMB to support muscle recovery and reduce muscle breakdown, and zinc carnosine to support and improve the lining of your gut.

每份含有 5 克一水肌酸，可支持肌肉力量和性能，以及大脑健康；HMB 钙可支持肌肉恢复并减少肌肉分解；肌肽锌可支持和改善肠道内壁。

All three of these ingredients have compelling science to support them, and therefore, I love seeing them added to the existing AG1 formula.

所有这三种成分都有令人信服的科学支持，因此，我喜欢看到它们添加到现有的 AG1 配方中。

As most of you know, I've been taking AG1 every day for nearly 14 years now.

正如你们大多数人所知，我每天服用 AG1 已有近 14 年了。

I started taking it long before I even knew what a podcast was.

早在我知道什么是播客之前我就开始服用它了。

It's a great product, and it's now made even better with the new AG1 Pro formula.

这是一款很棒的产品，现在新的 AG1 Pro 配方让它变得更好。

If you would like to try AG1 Pro, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a special offer.

如果您想尝试 AG1 Pro，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 获取特别优惠。

AG1 is giving away a free bottle of omega-3 coenzyme Q10 with your first subscription.

AG1 首次订阅即可免费赠送一瓶 omega-3 辅酶 Q10。

Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a free bottle of omega-3 coenzyme Q10 with your first AG1 subscription.

同样，请访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman，首次订阅 AG1 即可免费获得一瓶 omega-3 辅酶 Q10。

Today's episode is also brought to us by Eight Sleep.

今天的节目也是八觉给我们带来的。

Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep-tracking capacity.

八睡眠公司生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。

One of the best ways to ensure you get a great night's sleep is to make sure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct.

确保您睡个好觉的最佳方法之一是确保睡眠环境的温度正确。

And that's because in order to fall asleep and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees.

这是因为为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的体温实际上必须下降约一到三度。

And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees.

为了醒来时感觉神清气爽、精力充沛，您的体温实际上必须升高约一到三度。

Eight Sleep automatically regulates the temperature of your bed throughout the night according to your unique needs.

八睡眠会根据您的独特需求自动调节整个晚上的床温。

I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for nearly five years now, and it has completely transformed and improved the quality of my sleep.

我已经睡在八睡眠床垫罩上近五年了，它彻底改变并改善了我的睡眠质量。

The latest Eight Sleep model is the Pod 5.

最新的八睡眠型号是 Pod 5。

This is what I'm now sleeping on, and I absolutely love it.

这就是我现在睡觉的地方，我非常喜欢它。

It has so many incredible features.

它有很多令人难以置信的功能。

For instance, the Pod 5 has a feature called Autopilot, which is an AI engine that learns your sleep patterns and then adjusts the temperature of your sleeping environment across different sleep stages.

例如，Pod 5有一个名为Autopilot的功能，这是一个人工智能引擎，可以学习你的睡眠模式，然后在不同的睡眠阶段调整你的睡眠环境温度。

It'll even elevate your head if you're snoring, and it makes other shifts to optimize your sleep.

如果您打鼾，它甚至会抬高您的头部，并进行其他转换以优化您的睡眠。

If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, go to eightsleep.com/huberman to get up to $350 off the new Pod 5.

如果您想尝试八睡眠，请访问八睡眠.com/huberman，新款 Pod 5 最高可享受 350 美元优惠。

Eight Sleep ships to many countries worldwide, including Mexico and the UAE.

八号睡眠船运往世界各地的许多国家，包括墨西哥和阿联酋。

Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $350.

同样，访问八睡眠.com/huberman 最多可节省 350 美元。

Seems to me that the most advantageous approach would be to have a lot of generalizability about the process of overcoming activation energy and just getting into action toward a goal.

在我看来，最有利的方法是对克服活化能并采取行动实现目标的过程具有很大的概括性。

Like if you do the hard workout that morning or maybe write a certain passage, let's take it out of exercise.

就像如果你那天早上做了艰苦的锻炼或者写了一段话，让我们把它从锻炼中解放出来。

Exercise is always kind of a cliché example by now.

锻炼现在一直是一个陈词滥调的例子。

You're trying to learn violin or you're trying to learn a language, and it's hard, but you do a little bit of that before going to work, that it does set you up to be able to engage in effortful things throughout the day.

你正在尝试学习小提琴或你正在尝试学习一门语言，这很困难，但是你在上班之前做了一点，它确实让你能够全天从事艰苦的事情。

Some things you like to do, some things you don't want to do.

有些事你喜欢做，有些事你不想做。

Okay, let's assume that one could achieve that.

好吧，我们假设一个人可以实现这一目标。

But in terms of failures, you want a ton of domain specificity, because if the person says, "You know what?

但就失败而言，你需要大量的领域特异性，因为如果这个人说：“你知道吗？

I'm going to go after this athletic goal or cognitive goal or scholastic goal," and they fail.

我要追求这个运动目标、认知目标或学术目标，”但他们失败了。

If they attach the effort process-

如果他们附加努力过程-

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and not the specific goal to their memory in some broad way, then it could be, "I try things and I fail."

而不是以某种广泛的方式记忆的具体目标，那么它可能是，“我尝试了一些事情，但我失败了。”

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Things being like everything.

事情就像一切一样。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And that's how you described David.

这就是你描述大卫的方式。

So I'm struck by the potential for an asymmetry in the way that this reward motivation circuitry works.

因此，我对这种奖励激励电路的工作方式可能存在的不对称性感到震惊。

On the one hand, it's very generic.

一方面，它非常通用。

On the other hand, we have a lot of ability to say, well, I put in a ton of work, and I'm talking about myself now, to try and learn a musical instrument as a kid.

另一方面，我们有很多能力说，好吧，我投入了大量的工作，我现在谈论的是我自己，在小时候尝试学习乐器。

Total failure.

彻底失败。

Dogs howled.

Dogs howled.

Parents cringed.

Parents cringed.

Everyone cringed.

Everyone cringed.

I was happy to put it away.

我很高兴把它收起来。

But I've put effort towards other things, and it's worked out fabulously.

但我在其他事情上付出了努力，而且效果非常好。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's good to know that it wasn't just effort.

很高兴知道这不仅仅是努力。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right?

对吗？

But if you don't obey punishment and failure, you're also setting yourself up for a very hard life.

但如果你不服从惩罚和失败，你也会让自己过上非常艰难的生活。

No one wants to be the person with low activation energy who's kind of an idiot because they're always trying things and they never work out.

没有人愿意成为激活能量低的人，就像个白痴，因为他们总是在尝试一些事情，但从来没有成功。

That's, I think, what keeps a lot of people in the chair, so to speak-

我认为，这就是让很多人坐在椅子上的原因，可以这么说——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

wondering if they should put effort towards this or that, and that's why they, dare I say, watch too many videos about motivation, right?

想知道他们是否应该为此或那个付出努力，这就是为什么他们，我敢说，观看了太多关于动机的视频，对吧？

You want to watch the right ones, but you get the point.

你想看正确的，但你明白了。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

So this is generic in the sense that this pathway we've been talking about is, if you like, a final common pathway where all of these signals converge.

因此，如果您愿意的话，我们一直在讨论的这条路径是所有这些信号汇聚的最终共同路径，从某种意义上说，这是通用的。

So in David, it took out this final common pathway.

所以在大卫身上，它去掉了这条最后的共同途径。

The strokes took out the final common pathway, and therefore, we saw no motivation signal really was prompting him in any way of his own accord volitionally to do something.

这些动作取消了最后的共同路径，因此，我们没有看到任何动机信号真正促使他以任何方式自愿去做某事。

Now, the other point you make about the fact that you don't want this to be something that generalizes to all kinds of decision-making.

现在，您提出的另一点是，您不希望这成为所有类型决策的普遍现象。

Otherwise, you'd think you're a failure if every time you did something and it didn't work, you'd say, "Oh, I generalized everything." So it doesn't seem to be like that, and we can understand that.

否则，如果每次你做了某件事但没有成功，你就会说：“哦，我概括了一切。”你会认为自己是个失败者。所以好像不是这样的，我们也可以理解。

If this is the final common pathway, the signals for decisions about playing violin or learning a new language, whatever it is, are being computed elsewhere in the brain.

如果这是最终的共同路径，那么决定拉小提琴或学习新语言（无论是什么）的信号将在大脑的其他地方进行计算。

To engage this system, this is just the final common pathway to get you that vigorous energy over the activation energy barrier to initiate the action.

要参与该系统，这只是让您获得旺盛的能量越过激活能量屏障以启动行动的最终常见途径。

And then, of course, you're not going to be any good at the violin or salsa dancing or tango if you don't persevere.

当然，如果你不坚持下去，你就不会擅长小提琴、萨尔萨舞或探戈。

You have to persevere, and that's the other really important part of motivation.

你必须坚持下去，这是动力的另一个非常重要的部分。

We know a lot of people who start things, and then we also know the non-completers, the people who are always so energetic but actually don't finish, right?

我们认识很多开始做事的人，然后我们也认识一些未完成者，那些总是充满活力但实际上没有完成的人，对吗？

So it's almost as important to be able to finish and complete as initiate actions.

因此，能够完成和完成几乎与发起行动一样重要。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Perhaps it should be required learning to do some things that you're very passionate about but intentionally do things that you maybe even loathe just a little bit, even if provided they're not damaging to self or others or something.

也许应该要求学习做一些你非常热衷的事情，但故意做一些你可能甚至有点讨厌的事情，即使它们不会损害自己或他人或其他东西。

Because there's a real value in just what I call chop wood, carry water.

因为我所说的砍柴、挑水具有真正的价值。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Where you just...

你刚刚在哪里...

And I have this mode sometimes where I just really don't want to do something, and I say, like, "All right, chop wood, carry water.

有时我有这种模式，我真的不想做某事，我会说，“好吧，砍柴，挑水。

I'm doing it just to do it." And you finish and you feel pretty good about the effort and the thing, you're kind of like, "Ugh, all right, got it done.

我只是为了做而做。”当你完成后，你对自己的努力和事情感觉非常好，你会有点像，“呃，好吧，完成了。

I'm just glad to have it done." But to be a functional human being, generally you need both.

我很高兴能完成这件事。”但要成为一个有功能的人，通常两者都需要。

And I'm asking this on behalf of the many, many questions I get about motivation, or how do you find your passion?

我问这个问题代表了我收到的很多关于动机的问题，或者你如何找到你的激情？

And I always say, "Well, you find your passion by getting good at effort in things that you're not passionate about, so that when you eventually find your passion, you can just get there much faster." You can't just sit around waiting to be passionate.

我总是说，“好吧，你可以通过在你不热衷的事情上做好努力来找到你的激情，这样当你最终找到你的激情时，你就能更快地到达那里。”你不能只是坐着等待充满激情。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

No.

不。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And that's sort of what David was doing.

这就是大卫正在做的事情。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it wasn't pulling him forward.

这并没有拉他前进。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Exactly.

正是如此。

No, that's right.

不，没错。

And obviously there are different ways of getting your passion, but as you say, if you're just waiting for it to happen, it may not happen.

显然，激发激情的方法有多种，但正如你所说，如果你只是等待它发生，它可能不会发生。

The other thing that is important about what we were just speaking about is if you do, for some reason, generalize maladaptively to thinking, "This didn't work, and I tried this, this didn't work, and I tried this, and I'm really bad at this," that can lead not only to loss of motivation, but what we might call clinical depression.

关于我们刚才谈论的另一件重要的事情是，如果你出于某种原因，不适应地概括为这样的想法，“这不起作用，我尝试了这个，这不起作用，我尝试了这个，但我真的很糟糕”，这不仅会导致动力丧失，还会导致我们所谓的临床抑郁症。

Because one of the things that happens in depression is you think you're not good at anything, even though that might be an unreliable objective measure of your performance.

因为抑郁症中发生的事情之一是你认为自己不擅长任何事情，尽管这可能是衡量你表现的不可靠的客观衡量标准。

Everything you do seems bad.

你所做的一切看起来都很糟糕。

It had a terrible outcome.

结果很糟糕。

And one of the areas that we're really getting into is trying to work out the difference between depression and apathy.

我们真正进入的领域之一是试图找出抑郁症和冷漠之间的区别。

It turns out it's quite complicated, but there are some people who have pure apathy, no depression, like David, and there are other people who can be depressed, they can be sad, they can be hopeless about the future, but they don't necessarily lose motivation.

事实证明，情况相当复杂，但有些人有纯粹的冷漠，没有抑郁症，就像大卫一样，还有其他人可能会抑郁，他们可能悲伤，他们可能对未来感到绝望，但他们不一定会失去动力。

They can have pure depression.

他们可能患有纯粹的抑郁症。

And to make life really complicated, there are people who would fulfill the criteria for both apathy and depression.

让生活变得非常复杂的是，有些人同时满足冷漠和抑郁的标准。

They fit in the overlap between those two syndromes.

它们符合这两种综合症之间的重叠。

And trying to understand the biology of what separates depression from loss of motivation, as we see in apathy, is one of the important areas of research at the moment.

试图理解抑郁症与动力丧失（正如我们在冷漠中看到的那样）的生物学区别，是目前重要的研究领域之一。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

None of us want to be the person who just doesn't motivate to do anything, none of us want to be the person who motivates to do everything, and none of us want to be the person who invests lots and lots of time and energy in lots of things, and underneath it all, doesn't really want the things they're going after.

我们谁都不想成为一个没有动力去做任何事情的人，我们谁都不想成为一个有动力做所有事情的人，我们都不想成为一个在很多事情上投入大量时间和精力的人，而在这一切的背后，我们并不真正想要他们所追求的东西。

It's sort of the tapestry of the internet, self-help, motivation.

这有点像互联网、自助、激励的挂毯。

And there's so much-- I really have to say this.

还有很多——我真的不得不说。

I've wanted to say this for a long time, and it's the appropriate time, I think.

我想说这句话很久了，我想现在正是时候。

There's so much BS about, oh, is something pulling you forward or are you pushing yourself to it?

有很多废话，哦，是有什么东西在推动你前进，还是你在推动自己前进？

You should do things out of love.

你应该出于爱而做事。

No, you should do things to serve others.

不，你应该做一些为他人服务的事情。

Both wonderful in principle and practice, but there's this idea, and I think it's a false idea, that there's some specific thing, working on behalf of others, knowing what the purpose of what you're doing, that is somehow going to unlock this circuitry.

原则上和实践上都很棒，但是有一个想法，我认为这是一个错误的想法，即有一些特定的事情，代表他人工作，知道你正在做的事情的目的是什么，这会以某种方式解锁这个电路。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What I'm realizing today is the circuitry is the same.

我今天意识到电路是相同的。

The learning about what engages that circuitry-

了解该电路的作用-

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

is based on our historical understanding and probably the messages that we hear in our family, et cetera.

是基于我们的历史理解以及我们在家庭等中听到的信息。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Of course.

当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

"This is a worthwhile pursuit."

“这是一个值得的追求。”

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

"It's hard.

“这很难。

Keep going."

继续。”

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

"Trust me, it's going to work out in the end-"

“相信我，最终一定会成功的——”

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

even if it doesn't work out the way you think."

即使事情并不像你想象的那样。”

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Exactly.

正是如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Those are very valuable messages to hear.

这些都是非常有价值的信息。

But my question is this: For any of us, we've also seen the person who is very, very excited to try everything.

但我的问题是：对于我们任何人来说，我们也见过这样的人，他非常非常兴奋地尝试一切。

Every idea is something that they take action on, and they seem resilient to the fact that it never really goes anywhere.

他们会对每一个想法采取行动，而且他们似乎对这个想法从来没有真正取得任何进展这一事实有弹性。

It's almost like their self-concept is divorced from the outcomes.

就好像他们的自我概念与结果脱节了。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Hmm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Other people have it in the opposite direction, where, like you said, they're trying things, they're getting a reasonable amount of success, certainly against the backdrop of averages.

其他人则处于相反的方向，就像你说的，他们正在尝试一些事情，他们获得了相当程度的成功，当然是在平均水平的背景下。

But maybe they have one big failure or a couple, and then suddenly their whole self-perception is altered.

但也许他们经历了一次或几次重大失败，然后他们的整个自我认知突然改变了。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Where does self-perception come into all of this?

自我认知在这一切中从何而来？

Like, one's beliefs about themselves-

就像，一个人对自己的信念——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and their ability to do hard things, both for reward and just for the sake of getting good at hard work, seems like an immensely valuable feature of the human psyche, and I don't think we have a name for that.

他们做困难事情的能力，无论是为了奖励还是为了在努力工作中表现出色，似乎是人类心理的一个非常有价值的特征，我认为我们没有为此命名。

But, like, the self-concept piece-

但是，就像自我概念部分一样——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

in my mind, is really important.

在我看来，这真的很重要。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

I don't think we have a mechanistic explanation for the differences you've just suggested.

我认为我们对您刚才提出的差异没有机械解释。

Psychologically, we could think there are many reasons for that.

从心理学上来说，我们可以认为造成这种情况的原因有很多。

Some people don't have high ambitions.

有些人没有远大的志向。

They're happy to sit at the 50% level, maybe 51%, 52%, in terms of where they sit in the population.

就他们在人口中的地位而言，他们很乐意处于 50% 的水平，也许是 51%、52%。

And other people are not happy with that.

其他人对此并不满意。

That's not what they were brought up in this world to do.

这不是他们在这个世界上长大的目的。

They want to be at the top 2%, if possible, at the 1%.

他们希望成为前 2% 的人，如果可能的话，成为 1% 的人。

I don't think we have, at the moment, a good idea of the neuroscience that distinguishes between those two types of individuals.

我认为目前我们对区分这两类人的神经科学还没有很好的了解。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Of ambition.

出于野心。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Of ambition, yeah.

野心勃勃，是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, I don't know why I'm obsessing about this at the moment.

是的，我不知道为什么我现在对这个很着迷。

I feel like a lot of the pain of the world is about people trying to understand what they should strive for.

我觉得世界上很多痛苦都是因为人们试图理解他们应该争取什么。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

A friend long ago, she said to me something.

很久以前，一个朋友对我说了一些话。

She goes, "Flow, don't fight." And I was like, "What do you mean?" She's like, "Everything with you is this intense pursuit." And I said, "But I'm in love with the things I'm doing." And she said, "Well, it's just a lot." And then I realized, like, oh yeah, she really flows through life.

她说：“随波逐流，别打架。”我当时想，“你是什么意思？”她就像是，“和你在一起的一切都是这种强烈的追求。”我说：“但我热爱我正在做的事情。”她说：“好吧，只是很多。”然后我意识到，哦，是的，她真的在生活中流动。

She's accomplished, but it's just kind of in flow.

她已经取得了成就，但还只是顺其自然。

Like, there isn't this push energy.

就像，没有这种推动能量。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And in the Eastern medicine and philosophy, they talk about, like, it gets interesting right at the level of neuroanatomy.

在东方医学和哲学中，他们谈论的是，在神经解剖学的层面上它变得很有趣。

They talk about sort of like whether or not you're pushing yourself from the back of your body versus being pulled from the front.

他们谈论的话题有点像你是从身体后面推自己还是从前面拉自己。

I mean, it's mystical and vague to somebody like me trained in Western science, but I think they're onto something.

我的意思是，对于像我这样受过西方科学训练的人来说，这是神秘而模糊的，但我认为他们是有道理的。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Hmm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Like, whether or not you're expending extra energy kind of- Forcing yourself to do things.

就像，无论你是否消耗额外的能量——强迫自己做事。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In your undergraduate students, your patients-

在你的本科生中，你的病人——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

I'm assuming you see the full range

我假设您看到了完整的范围

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

I do, yeah.

我愿意，是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

If you were to editorialize a little bit, what do you think is the key to both satisfaction from work, realistic satisfaction from outcomes, and kind of peace, like a good life?

如果你要发表一点社论，你认为工作满意度、结果现实满意度以及和平（比如美好生活）的关键是什么？

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Well, it's interesting, isn't it?

嗯，这很有趣，不是吗？

Because there is some research on this.

因为有一些这方面的研究。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Good.

很好。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

The Harvard Study of Aging looked at these people, these men who I think were in their late teens, and followed them up to their 60s and 70s.

哈佛老龄化研究观察了这些人，这些人我认为是十几岁的人，并跟踪他们一直到 60 多岁和 70 多岁。

And my recollection of that data is really interesting, that there are some people who lived a kind of average life and they had an average family, they had average income, they had an average house.

我对这些数据的回忆真的很有趣，有些人过着普通的生活，他们有一个普通的家庭，他们有平均的收入，他们有一个普通的房子。

And then there are other people who really looked like they were going to soar, and something happened to those people along the way.

还有一些人看起来真的要飞升了，但一路上那些人发生了一些事情。

They didn't soar, they fell.

他们没有飞升，而是跌倒了。

And then finally, there was another group who actually did soar and were right up here.

最后，还有另一群人确实飞升了，就在这里。

But when they looked at the happiness levels of these people, it was the average person who actually would self-report the highest levels of happiness.

但当他们观察这些人的幸福水平时，发现实际上自我报告幸福水平最高的是普通人。

So ambition doesn't necessarily equate with happiness, which I think many people would agree with that.

所以野心并不一定等于幸福，我想很多人都会同意这一点。

But on the other hand, it seems to be such an important thing for humans, right?

但从另一方面来说，这对于人类来说似乎又是一件多么重要的事情吧？

For so many humans, it's not sufficient just to be at the 50%.

对于很多人来说，仅仅处于 50% 是不够的。

We really want to propel ourselves, whether we're pushed or pulled, whatever it is, we want to get there.

我们真的想推动自己，无论是被推还是被拉，无论是什么，我们都想到达那里。

So it would be a great area of research, wouldn't it?

所以这将是一个很好的研究领域，不是吗？

To find out how ambition is encoded in the brain and how does it work, because there's also the question of realistic ambition.

找出野心是如何在大脑中编码的以及它是如何运作的，因为还有现实野心的问题。

So if someone had told me when I was younger, "Don't be stupid, be realistic.

所以，如果有人在我年轻的时候告诉我，“别傻了，要现实一点。

You're never going to get to Oxford as an undergraduate, and you're never going to have a career where you're going to be doing clinical neurology as a clinically qualified person, doing neuroscience research, editing a journal, writing a book.

你永远不会以本科生的身份进入牛津大学，你也永远不会拥有一个以临床合格人员的身份从事临床神经病学、进行神经科学研究、编辑期刊、写书的职业。

That's not going to happen." If I had thought in those ways, it probably wouldn't have happened.

这不会发生。”如果我以这种方式思考，这可能就不会发生。

I just didn't think that we should have these boundaries to what you can do.

我只是认为我们不应该对你能做的事情有这些界限。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, the early messaging is key.

是的，早期的消息传递是关键。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

I think it is, yeah.

我想是的，是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, I'm the son of a scientist, and I was born and raised in Silicon Valley, and I realize only now that it completely shaped my brain in terms of, like, you want to do something, you go try it-

是的，我是一位科学家的儿子，我在硅谷出生和长大，直到现在我才意识到它完全塑造了我的大脑，就像，你想做某事，你就去尝试一下——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and there's a good chance you can succeed.

你很有可能成功。

And I mean, even friends that went the way of athletics, if they didn't succeed there, they started companies that succeeded.

我的意思是，即使是从事体育运动的朋友，如果他们没有成功，他们也会创办成功的公司。

And some crashed and burned, mind you, in all these domains.

请注意，在所有这些领域中，有些都崩溃了。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In academia, too.

In academia, too.

We see it, right?

We see it, right?

Ambition doesn't protect against disease or poor judgment-

野心并不能预防疾病或错误的判断力——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

No

否

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

in a lot of times either.

很多时候。

But it is fascinating, and maybe our species needs a distribution of motivational circuitries in the way you describe.

但这很有趣，也许我们的物种需要像你所描述的那样分布激励电路。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Certainly developing new technologies that transform-

当然，开发新技术可以改变-

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

medicine.

药。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Someone needs to do that.

需要有人这样做。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They can't be happy with just the scalpel and the-

他们不能只满足于手术刀和——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

current surgical mask and the current questionnaire that you ask patients in psychiatry.

当前的外科口罩以及您向精神病学患者询问的当前问卷。

I mean, we need tool builders, and that takes a vision of something that doesn't exist.

我的意思是，我们需要工具构建者，而这需要对不存在的东西的愿景。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Or a kind of sense that there's something else.

或者是一种感觉还有别的东西。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And so, God bless the people that do that.

所以，上帝保佑那些这样做的人。

But also, it's nice to have members of society that are just happy living their lives.

而且，社会成员过着幸福的生活也是件好事。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Of course.

当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because otherwise, what else is all that technology for?

否则的话，这些技术还有什么用呢？

Right?

正确的？

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

No, I'm not making any judgements here.

不，我不会在这里做出任何判断。

I'm just saying it's a really intriguing thing if you could get any kind of handle on what makes this happen, this range of ambition.

我只是说，如果你能以某种方式了解是什么导致了这种情况的发生，那么这真是一件有趣的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I didn't think we were going to discuss psychedelics, and we don't have to if you don't want to, but these days, there's growing interest in what are essentially...

我不认为我们会讨论迷幻药，如果你不愿意的话我们也不必讨论，但现在，人们对本质上的东西越来越感兴趣……

And let's talk about classic psychedelics.

我们来谈谈经典迷幻药。

Let's forget, MDMA is not a psychedelic, folks.

伙计们，让我们忘记一下，MDMA 不是迷幻药。

It's an empathogen.

It's an empathogen.

Ketamine is not a psychedelic.

氯胺酮不是迷幻药。

It's a dissociative anesthetic.

这是一种解离麻醉剂。

So people lump these things together-

所以人们把这些东西混在一起——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and we'll move ibogaine and LSD and those are different in the realm of psychedelics.

我们将转移伊博加因和LSD，它们在致幻剂领域是不同的。

But psilocybin is one that's increasingly being used in clinical trials, and-

但裸盖菇素是一种越来越多地用于临床试验的药物，而且——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

it's not a cure-all, but many people who are in these clinical trials come through talking about a more connected sense of self to the world.

这并不是包治百病的灵丹妙药，但许多参与这些临床试验的人都通过谈论自我与世界的联系更加紧密。

And it seems to take the edge off of the hyper-ambitious, miserable person.

这似乎让那些野心勃勃、悲惨的人不再那么生气。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's my observation, anyway.

无论如何，这是我的观察。

And it also seems to take some people with major depression to a place of, like, "Oh, I actually could change.

这似乎也让一些患有重度抑郁症的人陷入这样的境地：“哦，我实际上可以改变。

I could get a different outcome."

我可能会得到不同的结果。”

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Which is simply plasticity.

这就是可塑性。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So what is your thought about our ability to radically change our self-perception-

那么你对我们从根本上改变自我认知的能力有何看法——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

in terms of our ability to do things in the world, accomplish things in the world?

就我们在世界上做事、完成世界上的事情的能力而言？

Because that's really what getting over depression is about.

因为这才是克服抑郁症的真正意义所在。

It's about imagining a different outcome for oneself.

这是为自己想象不同的结果。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

It's a very important question, and I'm not an expert on psychedelics, but I think there is some emerging research on the effect of psychedelics on what is called anhedonia, lack of pleasure that you could get from something.

这是一个非常重要的问题，我不是迷幻药方面的专家，但我认为有一些新兴的研究表明迷幻药对所谓的快感缺乏症的影响，即缺乏从某事中获得的快乐。

So, we talked about changing effort, but it could be that one variable that happens in people with low mood is that they devalue the reward.

因此，我们讨论了改变努力，但情绪低落的人可能会出现一个变量，那就是他们贬低了奖励。

Everything seems bland.

Everything seems bland.

It doesn't seem pleasureful anymore.

看起来不再那么愉快了。

So psychedelics seem to have an effect on the self.

所以迷幻药似乎对自我有影响。

That principle is really interesting because the kind of patients that I study, the kind of patients that I describe in the book, are people in whom there was a change in the self.

这个原则真的很有趣，因为我研究的那种病人，我在书中描述的那种病人，都是自我发生改变的人。

There was a change in the way they portrayed themselves to the world, their social identity, but also in their personal identity.

他们向世界描绘自己的方式、他们的社会身份以及他们的个人身份都发生了变化。

And this is a really big area.

这是一个非常大的区域。

I mean, what makes the self?

我的意思是，什么构成了自我？

But the key thing here is that the self can change.

但这里的关键是自我是可以改变的。

The self is not set in stone.

自我并不是一成不变的。

We talked about psychedelics, but even simple things, like if you have too much thyroxine, thyroid hormone, floating around in your body- You're in hyperthyroid state.

我们谈论了致幻剂，但即使是简单的事情，比如如果你体内漂浮着过多的甲状腺素、甲状腺激素——你就处于甲状腺功能亢进状态。

People might be surprised to hear that that can cause not only irritability but cognitive impacts on your processing.

人们可能会惊讶地发现，这不仅会导致烦躁，还会影响您的处理认知。

It can also be the same sometimes if you have lack thyroxine, if you're hypothyroid, your cognitive functions may go so low that sometimes people wonder if you're developing dementia.

有时，如果您缺乏甲状腺素，如果您患有甲状腺功能减退症，您的认知功能可能会如此低下，有时人们会怀疑您是否患有痴呆症。

It can be that bad.

It can be that bad.

Now, most people wouldn't think thyroxine, why would that affect the self?

现在，大多数人不会想到甲状腺素为什么会影响自我？

It's a hormone that affects metabolism, for example.

例如，它是一种影响新陈代谢的激素。

But of course, thyroxine also affects neurons.

当然，甲状腺素也会影响神经元。

And I'm just using this as an example to show that something that seems as simple as having too much or too less of a particular hormone that we all need can alter the self, the way the self is.

我只是用这个例子来说明，看似简单的事情，比如我们都需要的某种特定激素过多或过少，就可以改变自我，改变自我的本来面目。

In people with brain disorders from stroke, from Alzheimer's disease, from Parkinson's disease, from traumatic brain injury, the self can change remarkably.

对于患有中风、阿尔茨海默病、帕金森病、脑外伤等脑部疾病的人来说，自我可能会发生显着变化。

And what I try to illustrate in the book is that you can have one domain of cognitive function affected.

我在书中试图说明的是，你的认知功能的一个领域可能会受到影响。

It could be memory, it could be perception, it could be attention, it could be your understanding of concepts.

它可能是记忆，可能是感知，可能是注意力，可能是你对概念的理解。

It could be your representation of your body or the way you control your behavior.

它可能是你对自己身体的表现，也可能是你控制自己行为的方式。

Someone may become very impulsive.

有些人可能会变得非常冲动。

Each of those domains, in and of themselves, contribute to our perception of the self.

这些领域中的每一个领域本身都有助于我们对自我的认知。

Marvin Minsky, one of the pioneers of AI, called this the society of mind.

人工智能先驱之一马文·明斯基（Marvin Minsky）将其称为“心灵社会”。

The self emerges from the interplay and the activity of this society of mind.

自我是从这个心灵社会的相互作用和活动中产生的。

If we take one of the modules out of that society, memory, attention, language, whatever it is, the self is changed.

如果我们从那个社会中取出其中一个模块，记忆、注意力、语言，无论是什么，自我就会改变。

It's not that you've deleted the self.

并不是你删除了自我。

The self is changed, and it's observable.

自我改变了，而且是可以观察到的。

Someone's personal identity can change.

某人的个人身份可能会改变。

Their social identity can change.

他们的社会身份可以改变。

So I think the key point here is the self is not immutable.

所以我认为这里的关键点是自我并不是一成不变的。

It's something that can change.

这是可以改变的。

People might think, "My personality is this way.

人们可能会想：“我的性格就是这样。

It can never change." Well, your personality is the product of your society of mind, the cognitive processes that are going on all the time, of which we are consciously aware of only a fraction.

It can never change."嗯，你的个性是你的心智社会的产物，是一直在进行的认知过程，而我们有意识地只意识到其中的一小部分。

Under the hood, 95% of the stuff is going on without us consciously being aware of these processes.

在幕后，95% 的事情都是在我们没有意识到这些过程的情况下发生的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It seems, and I'm not trying to play psychologist here, that fulfilling roles in our daily lives is an important part of our self-concept.

看来，我并不是想在这里扮演心理学家，在我们的日常生活中履行角色是我们自我概念的重要组成部分。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm a student, I'm a teacher, I'm a husband, I'm a wife, I'm a whatever it happens to be-

我是一个学生，我是一个老师，我是一个丈夫，我是一个妻子，我是一个无论是什么-

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

feeds back heavily on our notions of self.

对我们的自我概念有很大的反馈。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Are we fulfilling this role well or less well?

我们是否很好地履行了这个角色？

But there's another piece, and I know this exists more in Eastern philosophy, and I am not versed in that, where we wake up each day, and we know who we are.

但还有另一件事，我知道这更多地存在于东方哲学中，而我对此并不精通，我们每天醒来，我们知道我们是谁。

We don't forget who we are.

我们不会忘记我们是谁。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We're carrying our prior life experience to that day.

我们将之前的生活经历带到了那一天。

And I love the idea that we can change ourselves at the level of optimism or anything.

我喜欢这样的想法：我们可以在乐观或其他方面改变自己。

To me, that's like the apex of neuroplasticity.

对我来说，这就像神经可塑性的顶峰。

But of course, we want to hold on to something consistent.

但当然，我们希望坚持一些一致的东西。

We don't want to wake up and not know where we are or who we are.

我们不想醒来时不知道自己在哪里，也不知道自己是谁。

That's super scary, too.

That's super scary, too.

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So is it the case that when we take on a new role, that we are fundamentally changing?

那么，当我们承担新的角色时，我们是否正在发生根本性的改变呢？

And it also seems that unless we're very young, most people don't add new roles over time.

而且，除非我们非常年轻，否则大多数人似乎都不会随着时间的推移添加新的角色。

They might become a parent or a grandparent, have some friends, but you sort of have a limited number of roles in life.

他们可能会成为父母或祖父母，有一些朋友，但你在生活中扮演的角色数量有限。

And so it seems like doing new things could actually change the self, and that seems exciting, and I think it's not a depressing thought to me that many people probably would like to change themselves somewhat or a lot.

因此，似乎做新事物实际上可以改变自我，这似乎令人兴奋，而且我认为对我来说，很多人可能想稍微或很大地改变自己，这并不是一个令人沮丧的想法。

They want to feel like a different person.

他们想要感觉自己像一个不同的人。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But not so different that they lose touch with the prior person, so they can look at the-

但不会有太大不同，以至于他们与前一个人失去联系，这样他们就可以看到——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Okay

好的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

is this catching?

is this catching?

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

I understand where you're coming from.

我明白你来自哪里。

So on the one hand, of course, our ideas of who we are, ourselves, rely on our embodied self.

因此，一方面，我们对自己是谁、我们自己的看法当然依赖于我们的具体自我。

We occupy a body.

We occupy a body.

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

My body, the one I occupy, is different from yours, and so we have different physical identities in that respect.

我的身体，我所占据的身体，与你的不同，因此我们在这方面有不同的身体身份。

But we also have different perspectives, experiences, and those experiences give us our first-person experiences.

但我们也有不同的观点、经历，这些经历给了我们第一人称的体验。

If I put my hand in the fire, I'm the one who's going to feel the pain.

如果我把手伸进火里，我就会感受到痛苦。

If I pick up this cup, I have agency of what I do.

如果我拿起这个杯子，我就可以代理我所做的事情。

Those are my first-person experiences.

这些是我的第一人称经历。

And the physical identity in terms of both the body that I occupy and the first-person experiences that I have stretch back over time.

以及我所占据的身体和我随着时间的推移所获得的第一人称体验的物理身份。

And therefore, I have more confidence that this is me.

因此，我更有信心这就是我。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

I've occupied this body.

I've occupied this body.

It's grown up.

它长大了。

It's also aging, and I've had these experiences that make me me.

也随着年龄的增长，我也经历过这些经历，让我成为了我。

I've made these choices.

I've made these choices.

I made these decisions.

I made these decisions.

I have these memories.

I have these memories.

That's what contributes to my personal identity.

这就是我个人身份的贡献。

And the other bit you mentioned was really related to social identity, my roles.

你提到的另一点确实与社会身份、我的角色有关。

When someone asks you, "Who are you?

当有人问你：“你是谁？

Tell me a little bit about yourself," it's inevitable that we'd say, "Well, I grew up in San Francisco in the Bay Area.

告诉我一些关于你自己的事，”我们不可避免地会说，“嗯，我在旧金山湾区长大。

I did this.

我这样做了。

I went as an undergraduate to here.

我作为一名本科生来到这里。

I had these experiences." If you're religious, you might say, "This is my faith." If you follow a particular sporting team, you might say, "I'm a big fan of this particular team." If you were influenced by some very important people in your field, you might say, "I am part of that school of thinking in this way." That defines your social identity, and that's a really important part of who you are.

我有过这些经历。”如果你有宗教信仰，你可能会说：“这是我的信仰。”如果您关注一支特定的运动队，您可能会说：“我是这支特定球队的忠实粉丝。”如果你受到你所在领域一些非常重要的人的影响，你可能会说，“我在这方面是那个思想流派的一部分。”这定义了你的社会身份，这是你是谁的一个非常重要的部分。

So there's the personal identity, the body, the first-person experiences, and there's the social identity.

所以有个人身份、身体、第一人称体验，还有社会身份。

And again, social identity over time is very important.

再说一遍，随着时间的推移，社会认同非常重要。

To change from these things which we have grown up with these identities is possible.

改变我们伴随着这些身份长大的这些东西是可能的。

As we've said, it's possible through something hormonal, like changes in thyroxine, it's possible through brain disorders but these principles suggest that it's possible through what we do

正如我们所说，通过某种荷尔蒙（例如甲状腺素的变化），这是可能的，通过大脑疾病，这是可能的，但这些原理表明，通过我们所做的事情，这是可能的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

And interestingly, I think there is an evidence base for this.

有趣的是，我认为这是有证据基础的。

So as we grow older for example, as you're coming to retirement your network of friends your social connections often shrinks.

例如，随着我们年龄的增长，当你即将退休时，你的朋友网络你的社交关系往往会缩小。

People may have moved away, you're going to no longer have the colleagues that you interacted with because you're going to retire, your family is now old, your children have moved away.

人们可能已经搬走了，你将不再有与你交往的同事，因为你即将退休，你的家人现在已经老了，你的孩子已经搬走了。

The network is shrinking.

网络正在缩小。

But it turns out that the data show across many studies that people who keep relationships, increase or maintain the number of social relationships they have, they have a far less risk of developing dementia than those who don't, if we correct for all other confounding factors.

但事实证明，许多研究的数据显示，如果我们纠正所有其他混杂因素，那些保持人际关系、增加或维持社交关系数量的人，他们患痴呆症的风险比那些不这样做的人要低得多。

People who have a sense of curiosity who are open-minded, want to engage in something new, perhaps a new hobby, a new pursuit, whatever it is, they also have a far lower risk of developing dementia.

具有好奇心、思想开放、想要从事新事物的人，也许是新的爱好、新的追求，无论是什么，他们患痴呆症的风险也会低得多。

And you mentioned this term sense of purpose, so that's used or misused in various ways in different places.

您提到了“目的感”这个术语，因此它在不同的地方以各种方式被使用或误用。

But if we take sense of purpose as thinking, I get up in the morning with a sense of, I need to do this, I have a purpose in life.

但如果我们把目标感当作思考，我早上起床时就会有一种感觉，我需要这样做，我的人生有一个目标。

Those people who say that are also more resilient to cognitive decline over time.

那些这么说的人也更能适应随着时间的推移认知能力下降。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Which is a remarkable thing.

这是一件了不起的事情。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

It's incredible, yeah.

It's incredible, yeah.

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it makes me wonder if the key to evolving the self is about verbs not labels

这让我想知道自我进化的关键是否在于动词而不是标签

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Which sounds like a very California, new agey, like let's be about verbs not labels.

这听起来像是一个非常加州的新时代，就像让我们关注动词而不是标签。

But I mean it because if you're a scientist, people will say, "I'm a scientist" Okay, so you get a degree in science, awesome, as an undergraduate.

但我是认真的，因为如果你是一名科学家，人们会说，“我是一名科学家”好吧，所以你作为本科生获得了科学学位，太棒了。

Somebody does that it means they learned a lot of science.

有人这样做意味着他们学到了很多科学知识。

But if you're a doctor, a physician, you're a physician and a scientist and many other things too, it's really about the things that you did and do in those roles that really shape your brain.

但如果你是一名医生、一名医生、一名医生和一名科学家以及许多其他事情，那么真正塑造你大脑的就是你在这些角色中所做的事情和所做的事情。

Just having a PhD, I can promise you, doesn't do anything for you

我可以向你保证，仅仅拥有博士学位对你没有任何帮助

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And no one really cares after a short while.

不久之后就没有人真正关心了。

But the things you learn, the failures, your strivings, your successes, those really shape your self-concept.

但你学到的东西、失败、努力、成功，这些确实塑造了你的自我概念。

It goes back to what we were talking about before, about they shape our thinking about what we could do or potentially not do if we were to strive.

这又回到了我们之前讨论的话题，它们塑造了我们的思维，让我们思考如果我们努力奋斗的话，我们可以做什么或不可以做什么。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Which raises a very specific question.

这就提出了一个非常具体的问题。

What does David now think about apathetic David?

大卫现在对冷漠的大卫有何看法？

And what does David now think about David before he became apathetic?

在大卫变得冷漠之前，大卫现在对他有何看法？

His memory of self is as interesting to me as the transformation.

我对他的自我记忆和转变一样感兴趣。

Although the transformation is clinically remarkable and awesome, and I just want to tip my hat to it again.

尽管这种转变在临床上是显着且令人敬畏的，但我只想再次向它致敬。

I mean, you saved a life, basically.

我的意思是，基本上你救了一条命。

It's so cool.

太酷了。

And physicians do this.

医生就是这样做的。

This is my admiration for physicians.

这是我对医生的敬佩。

But what does he think?

但他怎么想？

Is he like, "Oh, yeah, I was in a state.

他是不是会说，“哦，是的，我当时处于一种状态。

I need more dopamine.

I need more dopamine.

I take this drug, I have more dopamine, and now I'm good"?

我服用这种药物，我有更多的多巴胺，现在我很好了”？

And how has that evolved over time?

随着时间的推移，这种情况是如何演变的？

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

No, I think after he improved, he certainly looked back on the situation he was in and could not believe that he couldn't create that effort.

不，我认为在他进步之后，他肯定会回顾自己所处的情况，并且无法相信自己无法做出这样的努力。

That-

那——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So disbelief.

So disbelief.

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Like a disconnect.

Like a disconnect.

Like, how could that-

Like, how could that-

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

How could I not have done that?

我怎么可能不这么做呢？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Because all he had to do was put the cables together to listen to music, right?

因为他所要做的就是将电缆放在一起来听音乐，对吧？

It's such a simple thing.

就是这么简单的事情。

He didn't have to do a huge amount.

他不需要做很多事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But this is like somebody who has a skill telling somebody else, "Hey, you just dunked the basketball." And you're like, "Yeah, but..."

但这就像一个有技能的人可以告诉别人：“嘿，你刚刚扣篮了。”你会说，“是的，但是……”

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

But if it's you-

But if it's you-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right

右

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

...

...

telling yourself-

telling yourself-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right

右

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

...

...

how could I be like that?

我怎么会这样？

Because obviously he has memories of-

因为显然他有记忆——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

...

...

what he used to be like before those strokes hit him, that he was this highly productive, very socially engaged person.

在中风之前，他是一个多么富有成效、非常热衷于社交的人。

So I guess you can see it afterwards, but at the time you don't necessarily have the insight.

所以我想你以后可以看到，但是当时你不一定有洞察力。

It's interesting, this week I was reading that Carly Simon was speaking about the fact she's developed Parkinson's disease.

有趣的是，本周我读到卡莉·西蒙正在谈论她患有帕金森病的事实。

But she mentioned that one of the biggest problems is her apathy.

但她提到，最大的问题之一是她的冷漠。

She can't believe that she's become apathetic.

她不敢相信自己竟然变得冷漠起来。

Now she obviously has insight into the problem, that she's developed apathy, but nevertheless, can't necessarily change that because if circuits that affect motivation are not firing as they should be, no matter what you think, you're not necessarily going to be able to change things.

现在她显然已经洞察到了这个问题，她已经变得冷漠了，但尽管如此，也不一定能改变这一点，因为如果影响动机的回路没有按应有的方式启动，无论你怎么想，你都不一定能够改变事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

It's like if anyone has ever had transcranial magnetic stimulation, it's like they can inhibit your ability to move a finger and it's like-

就好像如果有人接受过经颅磁刺激，它们就会抑制你移动手指的能力，就像——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

you can will that finger to move with everything you've got-

你可以用那根手指来移动你所拥有的一切——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and it doesn't move.

它不动。

And then they take the coil off your head, and you can tap your finger.

然后他们把线圈从你头上取下来，你就可以用手指敲击。

It's a remarkable thing-

It's a remarkable thing-

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

It is, yeah

是的，是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

to feel that.

to feel that.

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's painful in a psychological way, very painful.

从心理上来说这是痛苦的，非常痛苦。

We've all heard of mania.

我们都听说过躁狂症。

I'm not an expert in mania-

我不是狂热专家-

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

but it seems that when people are manic, they have tons of energy, tons of motivation-

但似乎当人们狂躁时，他们就会有大量的能量、大量的动力——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

to do everything.

做一切事情。

Everything is a good idea, and it's mostly about them.

一切都是好主意，而且主要是关于他们的。

Same if you see people on methamphetamines.

如果你看到有人吸食甲基苯丙胺，情况也是如此。

It's not a very empathic state.

这不是一种非常共情的状态。

It's not about, what can I do for society with all this extra energy?

这不是关于，我可以用所有这些额外的精力为社会做些什么？

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's a very me state.

It's a very me state.

You see this cocaine, amphetamines, manic states.

你可以看到可卡因、安非他明、躁狂状态。

It's every idea is a great one, and there's billions of ideas.

每一个想法都是伟大的，而且有数十亿个想法。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So much so that people are doing trivial things thinking it's interesting, or even damaging themselves or others.

以至于人们做着一些自认为有趣的琐事，甚至损害了自己或他人。

Are all of those hyperdopaminergic states?

所有这些都是多巴胺能亢进状态吗？

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is it just this motivational circuitry, just gas pedal to the floor?

仅仅是这个激励电路，只是油门踏板到地板吗？

And what does it tell us about motivational states?

它告诉我们关于动机状态的什么信息？

Because I do think the extremes are interesting.

因为我确实认为极端很有趣。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

So I don't know much about mania, but it turns out, when I was having to present a lecture On motivational disorders.

所以我对躁狂症了解不多，但事实证明，当我不得不做一场关于动机障碍的讲座时。

I thought I would dip into the neuroscience of addiction.

我想我应该深入研究成瘾的神经科学。

I'm not an addiction expert, and to my surprise, almost every drug of addiction, whether we go from nicotine to alcohol to heroin to cocaine to amphetamine, almost every drug of addiction hijacks that dopamine system we were talking about, this circuitry that goes from the basal ganglia to the frontal lobes.

我不是成瘾专家，令我惊讶的是，几乎所有成瘾药物，无论是尼古丁、酒精、海洛因、可卡因还是安非他明，几乎所有成瘾药物都会劫持我们所说的多巴胺系统，即从基底神经节到额叶的回路。

And I don't think that's a coincidence that we find when that circuitry is not working, as in David, that you can get profound loss of motivation, apathy.

我不认为这是巧合，我们发现当电路不起作用时，就像大卫一样，你会严重丧失动力，变得冷漠。

When that circuitry is on overdrive because it's been hijacked by these drugs, you get states of hyper motivation.

当该电路因被这些药物劫持而超速运转时，您就会处于过度激励的状态。

So of course, this is going to be overly simplistic to think dopamine levels are the only factor that affect our motivation, but it certainly turns out to be a very important factor in the sort of graduating the level of motivation we have to seek particular outcomes.

当然，认为多巴胺水平是影响我们动机的唯一因素就过于简单化了，但事实证明，它确实是我们寻求特定结果的动机水平分级的一个非常重要的因素。

And of course, in the drug addiction literature, that's really become what do you find incentively salient to act in order to try and get that outcome?

当然，在吸毒成瘾文献中，这确实成为您认为为了尝试获得该结果而采取行动的重要因素？

But it's the same circuitry, and isn't that an amazing thing that neuroscience has stumbled on?

但这是相同的电路，这难道不是神经科学偶然发现的一件令人惊奇的事情吗？

People who study apathy like me would not necessarily study the addiction literature, but when you do, you find that there's absolute convergence between this circuitry on the one hand being hypoactive and leading to apathy, on the other hand, being hyperactive and leading to addictive states.

像我这样研究冷漠的人不一定会研究成瘾文献，但当你这样做时，你会发现这个回路之间存在绝对的趋同性，一方面是低活跃并导致冷漠，另一方面是过度活跃并导致上瘾状态。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There's a lot that's been said about, are we constantly getting dopamine hits with online behavior?

人们已经讨论了很多，我们是否不断地通过在线行为获得多巴胺的刺激？

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Platforms are incentivized to keep us scrolling.

平台会激励我们继续滚动。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This is certainly true.

这当然是真的。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It seems almost compulsive more than it feels rewarding.

这看起来几乎是强迫性的，而不是感觉上的回报。

It's an interesting thing to observe oneself engaging in a behavior where the reward is gone.

观察自己从事一种奖励消失的行为是一件有趣的事情。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The subjective sense of the reward is gone, but we-

奖励的主观感觉消失了，但我们——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

perseverate.

坚持下去。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

There are two things here.

这里有两件事。

One is, yes, I agree with you that this sort of behavior, doom scrolling, et cetera, occurs, but I think the evidence that there are dopamine hits when you're doing this isn't really very strong.

一是，是的，我同意你的观点，这种行为、厄运滚动等等都会发生，但我认为当你这样做时会产生多巴胺的证据并不是很强。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I agree, and I'm grateful that you said that.

我同意，我很感激你这么说。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because people say, "I'm doing this for dopamine."

因为人们说，“我这样做是为了多巴胺。”

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

"I'm doing this for dopamine."

“我这样做是为了多巴胺。”

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Certain platforms and certain content does take us into drama and high arousal.

某些平台和某些内容确实会让我们陷入戏剧性和高度兴奋。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I don't know if there's dopamine associated with it.

我不知道是否与多巴胺有关。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We could explore that perhaps.

也许我们可以探讨一下。

It's an area I'm very interested in, but a lot of it is sort of, if I may, mindless, numbing out type behavior.

这是我非常感兴趣的领域，但如果可以的话，其中很多都是盲目的、麻木的行为。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It doesn't feel good.

感觉不太好。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It doesn't feel bad.

感觉还不错。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

People do often report that when they put the thing away, they're like, "Oh, my God, I wasted some more time." But they're not really so down in the trough that they don't do it again.

People do often report that when they put the thing away, they're like, "Oh, my God, I wasted some more time." But they're not really so down in the trough that they don't do it again.

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So there must be something somewhere in between.

所以一定有介于两者之间的东西。

I agree.

我同意。

I don't think of it as like dopamine hits.

我不认为这就像多巴胺的刺激。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's something else.

这是另一回事。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

It can be something else.

它可以是别的东西。

But the second point that you're making here is you may not actually like it, what you're doing.

但你在这里提出的第二点是，你可能并不真正喜欢你正在做的事情。

You may even be aware that you don't like it.

您甚至可能意识到自己不喜欢它。

And of course, in drug addiction, that's also sometimes a paradox, that addicts seek this thing they want, but they don't necessarily like it.

And of course, in drug addiction, that's also sometimes a paradox, that addicts seek this thing they want, but they don't necessarily like it.

They don't necessarily get pleasure from it if they consume it.

如果他们食用它，他们不一定会从中得到乐趣。

And of course, there is this dissociation in the neuroscience literature between wanting, the motivation to go and try and find that rewarding outcome, versus liking, the hedonic pleasure from getting it.

当然，在神经科学文献中，“想要”（去尝试寻找奖励结果的动机）与“喜欢”（获得结果所带来的享乐）之间存在着分离。

And the evidence suggests that wanting, pursuit of a goal, is mediated or modulated, at least, by dopamine.

And the evidence suggests that wanting, pursuit of a goal, is mediated or modulated, at least, by dopamine.

Whereas actually the liking, the pleasure you might get from an outcome is not.

Whereas actually the liking, the pleasure you might get from an outcome is not.

That seems to be related to opioid neurotransmitters in the brain.

That seems to be related to opioid neurotransmitters in the brain.

I think there's quite a lot of nice work by Kent Berridge and his colleagues on this in rodent models, but the principles still apply.

I think there's quite a lot of nice work by Kent Berridge and his colleagues on this in rodent models, but the principles still apply.

There can be a dissociation between wanting to do something and actually liking it.

There can be a dissociation between wanting to do something and actually liking it.

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You're the first person to say that online scrolling probably doesn't lead to a ton of dopamine release.

You're the first person to say that online scrolling probably doesn't lead to a ton of dopamine release.

It seems the experiment should be done.

看来这个实验应该做一下。

It's not hard to get people to scroll while in a scanner, look at nucleus accumbens, and adjust the content.

It's not hard to get people to scroll while in a scanner, look at nucleus accumbens, and adjust the content.

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

So there was an old experiment, and it was done with a PET scanner many years ago in the Hammersmith Hospital in London when the original scanning experiments were being done.

所以有一个古老的实验，它是多年前在伦敦哈默史密斯医院用 PET 扫描仪完成的，当时正在进行最初的扫描实验。

And they used a dopamine receptor ligand, something that will light up when this dopamine receptor drug attaches to dopamine receptors.

And they used a dopamine receptor ligand, something that will light up when this dopamine receptor drug attaches to dopamine receptors.

And in an indirect way, you can work out how much binding of dopamine receptors is occurring endogenously with this technique.

And in an indirect way, you can work out how much binding of dopamine receptors is occurring endogenously with this technique.

And they found that when someone was playing a video game, there was evidence that there was certainly more dopamine release in the ventral striatum-

他们发现，当有人玩电子游戏时，有证据表明腹侧纹状体肯定会释放更多的多巴胺——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

...

...

in the basal ganglia.

在基底神经节。

But the parsing out, the sort of deconstructing whether that dopamine release is due to the motivation you're getting when you're playing that game versus the liking that you're getting, the pleasure you're getting, is not so straightforward, especially with PET, which doesn't have the sort of temporal resolution of doing this.

但解析、解构多巴胺的释放是否是由于你玩游戏时获得的动力与你所获得的喜好、你所获得的快乐，并不是那么简单，特别是对于 PET，它没有这样做的时间分辨率。

So in some ways, it sounds straightforward to do the experiment, but actually, the subjective experience of liking and pleasure you're getting has to be temporarily dissociated-

所以从某些方面来说，做实验听起来很简单，但实际上，你所获得的喜欢和愉悦的主观体验必须暂时游离——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

...

...

from the motivation to act.

来自行动的动机。

And that's not so straightforward.

但这并不是那么简单。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Function.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 Function。

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功能提供超过 160 项高级实验室测试，让您清晰了解自己的身体健康状况。

This snapshot gives you insights into your heart health, your hormone health, autoimmune function, nutrient levels, and much more.

通过此快照，您可以深入了解心脏健康状况、激素健康状况、自身免疫功能、营养水平等。

They've also recently added access to advanced MRI and CT scans.

他们最近还增加了先进的 MRI 和 CT 扫描的访问权限。

Function not only provides testing of over 160 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, it also analyzes these results and provides recommendations for improving your health from top doctors.

Function 不仅提供对您身心健康至关重要的 160 多种生物标记物的测试，还分析这些结果并提供顶级医生改善您健康的建议。

For example, in a recent test with Function, I learned that some of my blood lipids were slightly out of range.

例如，在最近的一次 Function 测试中，我发现我的一些血脂稍微超出了范围。

As a result, I decided to start supplementing with nattokinase, which can naturally help reduce LDL cholesterol.

因此，我决定开始补充纳豆激酶，它自然可以帮助降低低密度脂蛋白胆固醇。

And it did.

确实如此。

In a follow-up test, I could confirm that this strategy worked.

在后续测试中，我可以确认这个策略是有效的。

My blood lipids are now back exactly where I want them.

我的血脂现在完全回到了我想要的水平。

Comprehensive lab testing of the sort that Function offers is just so important for health.

Function 提供的全面实验室测试对于健康非常重要。

How else are you going to know what's going on under the hood?

否则你怎么知道幕后发生了什么？

And while I've been doing blood work for years, it used to be time-consuming, complicated, and expensive.

虽然我从事血液检查已有多年，但它过去非常耗时、复杂且昂贵。

In fact, I used to spend thousands of dollars per year trying to get this kind of data, and the data, frankly, were not all that good.

事实上，我曾经每年花费数千美元试图获得此类数据，但坦率地说，这些数据并不那么好。

But now with Function, it's extremely easy and affordable.

但现在有了 Function，它变得非常简单且经济实惠。

A Function membership is only a dollar a day, $365 a year.

Function 会员每天仅需 1 美元，每年 365 美元。

And if you think about the information it provides, and the health challenges it helps you avoid, and the proactive things that it can do for you to enhance your health, I truly look at it as a savings.

如果您考虑一下它提供的信息，它可以帮助您避免的健康挑战，以及它可以为您增强健康所做的积极主动的事情，我确实将其视为一种节省。

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要了解更多信息，请访问 functionhealth.com/huberman 并使用代码 Huberman 获得 50 美元的会员积分。

Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman.

同样，这是 functionhealth.com/huberman。

I think of dopamine, of course, being involved in movement.

当然，我想到的是多巴胺参与运动。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Which is why when it's depleted-

这就是为什么当它耗尽时——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yep

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

people get Parkinson's or Parkinsonian-like symptoms.

people get Parkinson's or Parkinsonian-like symptoms.

But also it seems that dopamine, in an indirect or a direct way, is involved in thought movement.

But also it seems that dopamine, in an indirect or a direct way, is involved in thought movement.

Like it's involved in moving thoughts and ideas forward-

Like it's involved in moving thoughts and ideas forward-

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

which is sort of a piece of motivation.

这是一种动力。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's not the whole thing, but...

这不是事情的全部，但是……

And so in these hyperdopaminergic states, like people take amphetamines or they're manic, it's like everything's about the future.

因此，在这些多巴胺能亢进的状态下，就像人们服用安非他明或躁狂一样，一切都与未来有关。

It's from now forward.

就是从现在开始。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I don't know if people reflect on the past at all in those states, but-

I don't know if people reflect on the past at all in those states, but-

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

having seen...

见过...

I've never tried methamphetamine.

我从未尝试过甲基苯丙胺。

Fortunately, I don't have mania, but it seems like people are all about what could happen next.

幸运的是，我没有躁狂症，但似乎人们都关心接下来会发生什么。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's where they get themselves into trouble, is it's kind of-

这就是他们给自己带来麻烦的地方，是不是——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

a fire hose of that stuff.

那种东西的消防水带。

Social media is an interesting one because you're constantly updating the stimulus.

社交媒体是一个有趣的媒体，因为你可以不断更新刺激。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Right.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You're giving likes.

你就点个赞呗

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

It's a novelty seeking.

这是一种新奇的追求。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You might be receiving likes.

您可能会收到点赞。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You can make comments, and so if you think about it, it's like the perfect video game that goes in a infinite loop.

你可以发表评论，所以如果你仔细想想，它就像一个无限循环的完美视频游戏。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You just keep going and going and going, and you're never going anywhere.

你只是一直走啊走啊走，你永远不会去任何地方。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But all the proper bells and whistles are getting tapped on.

但所有适当的花里胡哨的东西都被利用了。

At least when I go to Vegas, which I do from time to time-

至少当我去维加斯时，我时常这样做——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

I like gambling a little bit.

我有点喜欢赌博。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You could walk out with some or a lot more money, or you could lose some or a lot of money.

你可能会带着一些或更多的钱离开，或者你可能会损失一些或很多钱。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I generally break even or win a little bit-

我通常会收支平衡或赢一点-

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

like most people, because I'm tempered in it.

像大多数人一样，因为我对此有脾气。

But at least there's a potential outcome you can take elsewhere.

但至少有一个潜在的结果可以带到其他地方。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right?

对吗？

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So I think about this all the time.

所以我一直在思考这个问题。

Like, what video game are you playing on social media?

例如，您在社交媒体上玩什么视频游戏？

Not as a creator, but as a consumer.

不是作为创造者，而是作为消费者。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What game are you playing?

你在玩什么游戏？

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

What video game are we playing in reality, in this environment?

在现实中，在这种环境下，我们正在玩什么视频游戏？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Now, that's the big one.

现在，这是最重要的。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

That's a-

那是一个——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

Well, you're from Oxford, I'm from California- ...

好吧，你来自牛津，我来自加利福尼亚——......

so you ask the big questions.

所以你问了一些大问题。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

No, but just coming back-

不，但刚回来-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah

是啊

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

...

...

to some of the points you made.

您提出的一些观点。

Dopamine depletion, of course, can lead to Parkinson's disease.

当然，多巴胺耗竭会导致帕金森病。

But interestingly, a lot of researchers are thinking, is it really just action or is it motivation to action?

但有趣的是，很多研究人员都在思考，这真的只是行动还是行动的动机？

So, the classical thing they describe is if a Parkinson's patient is in a house and they've just realized it's burning, they will be able to run out of that house.

因此，他们描述的经典情况是，如果帕金森病患者在一所房子里，并且他们刚刚意识到房子正在燃烧，他们将能够跑出那所房子。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

So that's what they will say, is that the motivation signal has suddenly ramped up to a level where it engages the action system.

所以他们会说，动机信号突然上升到了参与行动系统的水平。

So it's a different way of framing why is there a reduction of action?

那么，这是一种不同的框架方式，为什么行动会减少？

Why is there bradykinesia, a slowing of movement in people with Parkinson's disease?

为什么帕金森病患者会出现运动迟缓（运动减慢）？

That's really interesting.

这真的很有趣。

It doesn't just have to be about motor control.

它不仅仅涉及电机控制。

It could be the motivation to act, just as we said with David, right?

这可能是采取行动的动力，就像我们对大卫所说的那样，对吗？

Because the Parkinson's pathology affects the basal ganglia.

因为帕金森病的病理影响基底神经节。

Basal ganglia is important for action, but it also has these motivation signals that link those motivations, like there's a burning house here, I've got to run out, to action, to the outcome.

基底神经节对于行动很重要，但它也有这些动机信号，将这些动机联系起来，就像这里有一座着火的房子，我必须跑出去，去行动，去结果。

And the second piece you mentioned, I think brings up the other question.

你提到的第二件事，我认为提出了另一个问题。

Dopamine in the human brain isn't all about motivation to action.

人脑中的多巴胺并不完全与行动动机有关。

There's dopamine in other parts of the brain.

大脑的其他部分也有多巴胺。

We know from some really classical work by Patricia Goldman-Rakic, for example, that dopamine's important for working memory, short-term memory.

例如，我们从帕特里夏·戈德曼-拉基奇（Patricia Goldman-Rakic）的一些非常经典的著作中知道，多巴胺对于工作记忆和短期记忆很重要。

It's important for holding memories in mind.

记住记忆很重要。

And it's probably very important for executive function, the kinds of things that we might think of as either initiating action or stopping it, inhibiting it.

它对于执行功能可能非常重要，我们可能认为执行功能是启动行动或停止行动、抑制行动。

Stopping our impulsive thoughts from getting out.

阻止我们冲动的想法外流。

We might think someone is dressed inappropriately, but you and I wouldn't say that to them.

我们可能会认为某人穿着不合适，但你我不会对他们这么说。

But someone who might have a change in their dopamine system affecting, let's say, the frontal lobe, can somehow lose that control and become disinhibited.

但是，如果一个人的多巴胺系统发生了变化，比如说影响了额叶，那么他可能会以某种方式失去这种控制并变得不受抑制。

So initiation of action, stopping action, possibly switching from one goal to another, and also those higher order things, planning ahead, being able to think about planning ahead.

因此，开始行动、停止行动、可能从一个目标切换到另一个目标，以及那些更高阶的事情，提前计划，能够提前考虑计划。

Dopamine might also be important for those aspects of executive control.

多巴胺对于执行控制的这些方面也可能很重要。

So I wouldn't want your audience to think all that dopamine does is this motivation to action.

所以我不希望你的观众认为多巴胺所做的一切就是这种行动动机。

There's a lot of evidence it does other stuff.

有很多证据表明它还有其他作用。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The Parkinson's person in the burning home is a remarkable result.

帕金森氏症患者在着火的房子里是一个了不起的结果。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Remarkable result.

成果显着。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Completely changes the conceptual framework around Parkinson's and what it is at a circuit level.

彻底改变帕金森病及其电路层面的概念框架。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

We've also done some more, I guess, constrained experimental studies, research studies in Parkinson's disease, where my colleague, Sanjay Manohar, and I were looking at eye movements.

我想，我们还做了更多一些关于帕金森病的有限实验研究，我和我的同事桑杰·马诺哈尔（Sanjay Manohar）正在研究眼球运动。

And eye movements are very ballistic.

而且眼球运动非常剧烈。

They're pre-programmed, they have a particular velocity.

它们是预先编程的，有特定的速度。

And what we've managed to show is If you increase the incentive, the reward you get if you make a rapid eye movement, you can find that the velocity of eye movements in Parkinson's disease can increase, just as it can increase in you and me.

我们已经成功地证明，如果你增加激励，即你进行快速眼球运动时获得的奖励，你会发现帕金森病患者的眼球运动速度会增加，就像你我的眼球运动速度会增加一样。

But if you add dopamine to a patient with Parkinson's disease, that velocity increases even further.

但如果你给帕金森病患者添加多巴胺，这个速度会进一步增加。

You've increased the vigor of a simple thing like an eye movement.

你增加了像眼球运动这样简单的事情的活力。

So that goes along with this idea that it's not just inaction.

因此，这与“这不仅仅是无所作为”的想法是一致的。

You need incentives for action, and dopamine is important for those incentives.

你需要行动的激励，而多巴胺对于这些激励很重要。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In some sense, the person with mild Parkinson's, while we wouldn't wish this on anybody-

从某种意义上说，患有轻度帕金森氏症的人，虽然我们不希望这种情况发生在任何人身上——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

is hyper-rational.

是超理性的。

They're not going to initiate action unless there's really a potential payoff.

除非确实有潜在的回报，否则他们不会采取行动。

Many people have an excess of energy, so they can afford to move about-

许多人精力充沛，所以他们有能力四处走动——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and do all sorts of things and pick things up and put them down, and a lot of wasted energy out there.

做各种各样的事情，把东西捡起又放下，浪费了很多精力。

I'm not saying that people should give themselves Parkinson's by any stretch, but there does seem to be a kind of built-in feature/flaw of this dopaminergic system that it's so subject to learning.

我并不是说人们应该无论如何都让自己患上帕金森氏症，但这种多巴胺能系统似乎确实有一种内置的特征/缺陷，它非常需要学习。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So prior experience can really bias us towards or away from things.

因此，先前的经验确实会让我们对事物产生偏见或远离。

That's good and bad, right?

这有好有坏，对吧？

But also, the person with Parkinson's, just the mere fact that they need an elevated motivation to hit some threshold for action, I think it reveals a lot about people without Parkinson's.

而且，对于患有帕金森氏症的人来说，仅仅因为他们需要更高的动力来达到行动​​的某个门槛，我认为这揭示了很多关于没有帕金森氏症的人的情况。

We're wasting a lot of energy all day long.

我们一整天都在浪费大量的精力。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

You might say it would be efficient just to do nothing.

你可能会说，什么都不做就会更有效率。

Maybe David was very efficient.

也许大卫非常有效率。

He didn't do anything.

他什么也没做。

But-

但是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

His roommates definitely took care of a lot it sounds like.

听起来，他的室友确实照顾了很多事情。

It's not functional-

它没有功能-

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

for an adult to be like that after a while.

成年人过了一段时间就会变成这样。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Exactly.

正是如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But society sort of operates on this.

但社会就是以此为基础运作的。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There's largely been made some room for people who are just not going to contribute-

基本上已经为那些不打算做出贡献的人留出了一些空间-

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and other people who over-contribute, and then it's a distribution-

以及其他过度贡献的人，然后就是分配-

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Sure

当然可以

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and sort of what allows us to function.

以及让我们能够发挥作用的东西。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

At risk of going into really high level territory here, you said something.

冒着进入真正高层领域的风险，你说了一些话。

You said, "What game are we playing here after all?" It's an important one, I think, to ask.

你说：“我们到底在玩什么游戏？”我认为这是一个重要的问题。

We don't want to go down that rabbit hole too often or too deeply because we can get lost.

我们不想经常或太深地陷入那个兔子洞，因为我们可能会迷路。

We have our roles to carry out in life, after all.

毕竟，我们在生活中有自己的角色要履行。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But I think about this a lot.

但我对此思考了很多。

I do think the first third to half of one's life, assuming people live somewhere between 70 and 100 years of age, is about learning all these contingencies, developing social skills, what works, what doesn't work, hopefully avoiding traumas, but if you have some, eventually overcoming those, seeing that not everything has to end that way in that domain.

我确实认为，假设人们生活在 70 岁到 100 岁之间，人生的前三分之一到一半的时间就是学习所有这些意外情况，发展社交技能，什么有效，什么无效，希望避免创伤，但如果你有一些创伤，最终克服这些创伤，看到在那个领域并不是所有事情都必须以这种方式结束。

And then you hit the middle of your life and you do a few more rounds of learning and extending oneself and building oneself and family and culture.

然后你就到了人生的中年，你又进行了几轮学习、扩展自己、建立自己、家庭和文化。

But then there does seem to be something that happens to all humans, is they start reflecting a little or a lot-

但似乎所有人类都会发生一些事情，他们开始反思一点还是很多——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

like, what game are we playing here?

比如，我们在这里玩什么游戏？

Were we just leveraged by all these evolutionarily constrained circuits and drives, or is there something that we're-

我们是否只是被所有这些进化受限的电路和驱动器所利用，或者我们是否-

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

supposed to focus on or aspire to?

应该关注或渴望什么？

And then I think most people just shelve it.

然后我想大多数人都会把它搁置起来。

It's just way too much to think about.

实在是太多了，需要思考。

It's really heavy to think that maybe there is really no purpose in this.

想想也许这真的没有任何目的，真的很沉重。

And then it's also fun and can really lift you up to think like, "Oh, this is cool.

而且它也很有趣，真的可以让你振奋起来，这样想：“哦，这太酷了。

This game we call life is actually a really amazing gift."

这个我们称之为生命的游戏实际上是一份非常了不起的礼物。”

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Which is sort of where I live these days.

这就是我这些天住的地方。

I think, "I'm so grateful my parents made me." Like that alone, I have no gripes about anything else anymore because they made me.

我想：“我很感激我的父母创造了我。”仅此而已，我就不再对其他任何事情抱怨，因为是他们创造了我。

I'm here.

我在这儿。

So many people didn't make it here.

这么多人没能来到这里。

It's a great place to start-

这是一个很好的起点——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

one's day, and then you have to go do stuff.

一天过完了，然后你就得去做事了。

So how do you conceptualize what we're going after?

那么您如何概念化我们要追求的目标？

And for each of us, I think it is important to step back and ask these high-level questions, especially after age about 35, 40.

对于我们每个人来说，我认为重要的是退后一步，提出这些高层次的问题，尤其是在 35 岁、40 岁左右之后。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because the early part, you really are just trying to acquire the skills to navigate life.

因为在早期，你实际上只是想获得驾驭生活的技能。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

I think your background makes a huge difference.

我认为你的背景有很大的不同。

And as you were speaking, I was thinking, of course, this also speaks to culture, right?

当你说话时，我在想，当然，这也与文化有关，对吗？

The culture in which you grew up also defines some of the goals, the aspirations, the ambitions you have.

你成长的文化也决定了你的一些目标、愿望和抱负。

It could be the larger culture, growing up in the United States versus growing up in the culture of your family as well.

这可能是更大的文化，在美国长大与在你的家庭文化中长大。

Those are obviously important aspects.

这些显然是重要的方面。

So when you are growing up, I think a lot of it is dominated by the environment, you call them contingencies, the culture in which you're growing up.

所以当你成长的时候，我认为很多都是由环境决定的，你称之为偶然事件，你成长的文化。

But in a way, of course, as we're growing up, we are also contributing to that culture.

但在某种程度上，当然，随着我们的成长，我们也在为这种文化做出贡献。

If we have kids, we are also transmitting this information.

如果我们有孩子，我们也会传输这些信息。

And perhaps one of the most important things that people do between generations is transmit the culture.

也许人们在代际之间所做的最重要的事情之一就是传播文化。

The culture, the local culture of the home, the domestic home, the wider culture in terms of the values shared by the tribe you happen to be a member of.

文化，家庭的当地文化，家庭文化，以及您碰巧所属的部落所共享的价值观的更广泛的文化。

All of those things shape what we do.

所有这些都影响了我们的工作。

And perhaps a generation ago, even a generation or two ago, people didn't have the luxury of reflecting back on, what on earth are we doing this for?

也许一代人之前，甚至一两代人之前，人们还没有机会反思，我们这样做到底是为了什么？

They were surviving.

他们幸存下来。

They were just surviving.

他们只是生存而已。

And of course, there are many people in the world today who are also surviving.

当然，当今世界上还有很多人幸存下来。

They're going, "What are you on about?

他们会说：“你在说什么？

I just have to survive.

我只需要生存下去。

This is not a game of anything else." We've got to a point as humans, though, where we have the luxury, some of us, that we can have time to even consider what this is all about.

这不是其他任何游戏。”然而，作为人类，我们已经到了一个地步，我们中的一些人可以有足够的时间来考虑这到底是怎么回事。

And one of those things, I think, is where our culture is going.

我认为其中之一就是我们的文化的发展方向。

That's really important.

这真的很重要。

It's a very big question in the US at the moment in terms of what is the culture, what are the values we consider to be part of the tribe?

目前在美国，这是一个非常大的问题，即什么是文化，什么是我们认为是部落一部分的价值观？

How big is the tribe, actually?

部落到底有多大？

How many tribes are there?

有多少个部落？

That's so important, I think, in influencing my answer to that question, is thinking, yeah, what game are we playing?

我认为，在影响我对这个问题的回答时，思考非常重要，是的，我们在玩什么游戏？

Well, we're playing a game that's been played for centuries and generations And that has led to human culture as we know it.

好吧，我们正在玩一个已经玩了几个世纪、几代人的游戏，它导致了我们所知的人类文化。

Highly successful in so many ways but also capable of dysfunctional activity as we know.

正如我们所知，它在很多方面都取得了巨大的成功，但也可能会出现功能失调的情况。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

As a physician, I'm sure there are many reasons you go to work each day.

作为一名医生，我确信您每天上班有很多原因。

But just you personally, if you're willing, where does your mind go when you reflect on your career, past, present, and future?

但就你个人而言，如果你愿意的话，当你反思你的职业生涯、过去、现在和未来时，你的思绪会去哪里？

Do you think about making a specific type or size of contribution?

您是否考虑做出特定类型或规模的贡献？

Like, what's deeply satisfying for you?

比如，什么让你深深满足？

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

I've got to the point where if I have to make decisions or choices about things to do, I am going to make what I would call my deathbed decision here.

我已经到了这样的地步：如果我必须对要做的事情做出决定或选择，我将在这里做出我所谓的临终决定。

I want to think that when I am passing away on my deathbed, I can look back on this decision and think that was a valuable thing to do for me.

我想，当我在临终时去世时，我可以回顾这个决定，并认为这对我来说是一件有价值的事情。

I take pride in it.

我为此感到自豪。

I did something useful.

我做了一些有用的事情。

It could be for me, it could be for my family, it could be for somebody else.

它可能是为了我，可能是为了我的家人，也可能是为了其他人。

But I can look back on that and think that was worth it.

但我可以回顾一下，并认为这是值得的。

So if someone gives me an option of doing something that I would say, no, that really would not be something I would be proud of or value in any way esteem, I just say no. So the juice for me is do only the things, if you can, if you have that option, do only the things that you think will be valuable in time to come.

因此，如果有人让我选择做某件事，我会说，不，这真的不会是我感到自豪或以任何方式尊重的事情，我只是说不。所以对我来说，重点就是只做那些你认为在未来有价值的事情，如果可以的话，如果你有这个选择的话。

I think I've got to that point where I can think like that.

我想我已经到了可以这样思考的地步了。

Now, obviously, there are some things we just cannot avoid.

现在，显然，有些事情我们无法避免。

What did you call it?

你叫它什么？

Wood?

木头？

What was your-

什么是你的-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, chop wood, carry water.

哦，砍柴，挑水。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Chop wood, carry water.

砍柴，挑水。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

A friend of mine who came from a blue-collar background-

我的一个来自蓝领背景的朋友——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

now he's an academic and a clinician, and he just said there's some things, when you grow up in a farm-ish community, it wasn't like farm per se-

现在他是一名学者和临床医生，他只是说有些事情，当你在一个农场社区长大时，它本身就不像农场——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

but it was rural community.

但那是农村社区。

There's certain times of year where you just chop wood, carry water.

一年中的某些时候，你只需要砍柴、挑水。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's no fun.

这并不好玩。

Like, you don't necessarily want to do it, but the pleasure at the end of the day is in having chopped a lot of wood and carried a lot of water.

就像，你不一定想这样做，但一天结束时的乐趣在于砍了很多木头并运了很多水。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

And sometimes, as you said, you got to do that-

有时，正如你所说，你必须这样做-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

...

...

to make the other things happen.

使其他事情发生。

So I understand that.

所以我明白了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

I'm just giving you the extreme view.

我只是给你极端的观点。

So for me, the juice is try and focus such that you do the stuff you really think is valuable.

所以对我来说，最重要的是尝试并专注，这样你就可以做你真正认为有价值的事情。

That's really important to me.

这对我来说真的很重要。

I understand that that may not be an option for many people.

我知道这对很多人来说可能不是一个选择。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, I think almost everybody, not everyone, but almost everybody has the option to read book A or book B.

嗯，我认为几乎每个人，不是每个人，但几乎每个人都可以选择阅读书 A 或书 B。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Listen to podcast A or B, or episode A or B.

收听播客 A 或 B，或者剧集 A 或 B。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I don't think we put quite as much thought into the decision-making around those these days.

我认为我们现在并没有对这些日子的决策投入太多考虑。

I try and do more of it.

我尝试做更多这样的事情。

And I appreciate your answer because I think for people who hear conversations with folks like you who are very accomplished, they assume that they're just sort of on a locomotive of achievement.

我很欣赏你的回答，因为我认为，对于那些听到与像你这样非常有成就的人交谈的人来说，他们认为自己只是在取得成就的火车头上。

Work, achieve, work, achieve-

工作，成就，工作，成就——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

I wish.

我希望。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and you have it all.

而你拥有这一切。

Right.

正确的。

Exactly.

确切地。

But I know based on the short time we've had the opportunity to interact and the way you answer your questions, that you think carefully about what to work on next, because it's a huge investment to work-

但我知道，基于我们有机会互动的时间很短，以及你回答问题的方式，你会仔细考虑下一步要做什么，因为这是一项巨大的工作投资——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

on a David versus...

大卫对...

You could work on anything.

你可以做任何事情。

You're a neurologist.

你是一名神经科医生。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You could quit neurology probably and just write.

你可能可以放弃神经病学而直接写作。

You could do any number of different things.

你可以做许多不同的事情。

So as you have more skills and more agency, the choice-making process becomes increasingly important, not less.

因此，当你拥有更多的技能和更多的代理权时，选择过程就会变得越来越重要，而不是变得越来越重要。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to talk a bit about your work on the way we sometimes can get dissociated from our environment, but not necessarily dissociative disorders.

我想谈谈你的工作，关于我们有时会与环境分离的方式，但不一定是分离性障碍。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But if we could do a little experiment with the audience.

但如果我们可以对观众做一个小实验。

I think everyone is familiar with the idea of closing their eyes and being inside of themselves, then opening their eyes and still feeling yourself, but also sensing the outside world.

我想每个人都熟悉这样的想法：闭上眼睛，进入自己的内心，然后睁开眼睛，仍然感受自己，同时也感知外面的世界。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And then moving through the world in a way where you're...

然后以你所在的方式穿越世界......

They're kind of going back and forth quickly.

他们来来回回的速度很快。

You're sort of out there, but in here, out there.

你有点在外面，但在这里，在那里。

Of course, we're always in here.

当然，我们一直都在这里。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's all an abstract construction in our brain.

这都是我们大脑中的抽象结构。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But you've studied patients where they're not seeing big swaths of the outside world.

但你研究过的病人，他们看不到外面世界的大片区域。

Maybe you could explain what that's called and what it is, and how it changes their perception of experience on the inside.

也许你可以解释一下这叫什么，它是什么，以及它如何改变他们对内部体验的看法。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because this is something that I hope I'll never truly understand, although maybe you have an experiment where I can shut down some stuff and do it.

因为这是我希望我永远不会真正理解的事情，尽管也许你有一个实验，我可以关闭一些东西并执行它。

But this is a really important aspect of being a human that we've never discussed on this podcast and hardly anyone talks about.

但这是人类的一个非常重要的方面，我们从未在这个播客上讨论过，也几乎没有人谈论过。

We can go in here, we can be out there, but usually we're somewhere in between.

我们可以进去，也可以出去，但通常介于两者之间。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

How does all this stuff work?

所有这些东西是如何工作的？

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

So the way many people would think about this is either internal attention or external attention.

所以很多人思考这个问题的方式要么是内部关注，要么是外部关注。

I mean, attention is just a term we use, and most of the audience will be very familiar with the idea of attention to things in the outside world.

我的意思是，注意力只是我们使用的一个术语，大多数观众都会非常熟悉关注外部世界事物的想法。

Why do we have a system for attention?

为什么我们有一个注意力系统？

And the way that many neuroscientists would put this is that the brain has limited capacity, right?

许多神经科学家的说法是大脑的能力有限，对吧？

It doesn't have capacity to process all the information in the outside world.

它没有能力处理外界的所有信息。

It's coming at us in our eyes, it's coming at us in our ears, it's coming at us in our touch receptors in our skin.

它从我们的眼睛里射向我们，从我们的耳朵里射向我们，从我们皮肤上的触觉感受器射向我们。

So if we were to upload all that information, which is coming out at millisecond basis, it would be storing terabytes of information every minute or so.

因此，如果我们要上传所有以毫秒为单位的信息，那么每分钟左右就会存储数 TB 的信息。

We don't have that capacity, nor should we, because we don't want to have neural space devoted to stuff that isn't important.

我们没有这种能力，也不应该有这种能力，因为我们不想让神经空间专门用于不重要的事情。

Do you remember Google Glasses?

你还记得谷歌眼镜吗？

They were supposed to record everything that you saw through the day.

他们应该记录你这一天所看到的一切。

They weren't successful when they came out because most people realized that actually, most of the things that are happening during the day are boring.

他们出来时并不成功，因为大多数人意识到，实际上，白天发生的大多数事情都很无聊。

They're not very interesting.

它们不是很有趣。

They shouldn't be things we pay attention to.

它们不应该是我们关注的事情。

So the first point is the brain has limited capacity, so some process has to be there to select the stuff that is important for you, and that process we call attention.

所以第一点是大脑的能力有限，所以必须有一些过程来选择对你来说重要的东西，这个过程我们称之为注意力。

And how does that work, right?

这是如何运作的，对吧？

One way that many people think that works for the external deployment of attention is that items are competing For the selection of processing.

许多人认为对注意力的外部部署有效的一种方式是项目竞争处理的选择。

That sounds a bit of a nebulous thing, but imagine you're walking down the street, and suddenly you see a bit of a building is falling off and coming towards you.

这听起来有点模糊，但想象一下你正走在街上，突然你看到一座建筑物正在倒塌并向你而来。

That grabs your attention, and neuroscientists call that bottom-up attention.

这会吸引你的注意力，神经科学家称之为自下而上的注意力。

Right?

正确的？

It's a sensory stimulus that's really important.

这是一种非常重要的感官刺激。

It's grabbed your attention.

它吸引了你的注意力。

You've got to move.

你必须行动起来。

But you can also have goal-directed, top-down attention.

但你也可以有目标导向、自上而下的关注。

You go to a busy railway station, you're going to meet a friend, and she said, "I'm going to be wearing a red dress." So you can filter out everything else apart from all the people who are wearing something red, and that gets you to a faster state of finding the person you're going to meet.

你去一个繁忙的火车站，你要去见一个朋友，她说：“我要穿一件红色的裙子。”因此，您可以过滤掉除所有穿着红色衣服的人之外的所有其他人，这可以让您更快地找到您要见到的人。

So we've got bottom-up attention, we've got top-down goal-directed attention, but where do we normally deploy this?

所以我们有自下而上的注意力，我们有自上而下的目标导向的注意力，但我们通常在哪里部署它？

I mean, so if there's something very important bottom up, like a bit of a building falling towards you, that will grab your attention because the system is designed, our systems are designed to devote all the resources that we have to that very important threat.

我的意思是，如果有一些非常重要的自下而上的东西，比如一座建筑物向你倒下，这会引起你的注意，因为系统是经过设计的，我们的系统旨在将我们拥有的所有资源投入到这个非常重要的威胁中。

Now, in terms of goal-directed attention, that might also include internal thoughts.

现在，就目标导向的注意力而言，这可能还包括内部想法。

So if I'm in a lecture and I'm listening to somebody, I may fade in and out of attending externally, and then I might be captured by internal thoughts.

因此，如果我在听某人演讲，我可能会逐渐淡出外部参与，然后我可能会被内部思想所捕获。

I might be thinking, "Yeah, I should have really made some plans for this evening because I haven't really done that.

我可能会想，“是的，我真应该为今晚制定一些计划，因为我还没有真正做到这一点。

Now, what can I do this evening?" Right?

那么，今天晚上我能做什么呢？”正确的？

"Should I make a booking for a restaurant or something like that?

“我应该预订餐厅之类的吗？

I should have done that earlier." I'm now thinking my attention is captured by these internal thoughts.

我应该早点这么做的。”我现在认为我的注意力被这些内心的想法吸引了。

So one way that we have tried to understand this stuff is that items are competing for our attention.

因此，我们试图理解这些东西的一种方式是，项目正在争夺我们的注意力。

Either external items or internal thoughts are competing for where we are focusing our resources.

外部事物或内部思想都在争夺我们的资源集中位置。

So attention is really just a way of explaining the fact that we're devoting our brain resources to this particular location in space or this thought.

因此，注意力实际上只是解释我们将大脑资源投入到空间中的这个特定位置或这个想法这一事实的一种方式。

So closing your eyes, thinking internally, is really just an extreme form of putting all your resources into a particular thought.

所以闭上眼睛，内心思考，实际上只是将所有资源投入到特定思想中的一种极端形式。

But that happens, as I said, even with your eyes open.

但正如我所说，即使你睁着眼睛，这种情况也会发生。

You can be distracted by this thought in your head, even though your eyes are open and there are things going out, because in this competition for selection, at that moment, that thought has captured your neural processing.

即使你睁着眼睛，有事情发生，你也可能会被头脑中的这个想法分散注意力，因为在这场选择竞争中，在那一刻，那个想法已经捕获了你的神经处理。

And that's happening because the brain has limited capacity.

发生这种情况是因为大脑的能力有限。

Things are competing for selection because of that limited capacity.

由于容量有限，事物正在竞争选择。

So you can only focus your processing on a small number of items at a time, perhaps even just one.

因此，您一次只能将处理集中在少量项目上，甚至可能只有一个。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I think if you polled most people, they would say that they experience too much inner, what's been called chatter.

我想如果你对大多数人进行民意调查，他们会说他们经历了太多的内心，也就是所谓的喋喋不休。

We had Ethan Kross on the podcast.

我们的播客中有伊森·克罗斯 (Ethan Kross)。

He's a psychologist at University of Michigan, and he wrote a book about chatter.

他是密歇根大学的心理学家，写了一本关于聊天的书。

And people would love to turn off their thoughts because most of what people report as their inner chatter is not pleasant.

人们很乐意关掉自己的想法，因为大多数人所说的内心喋喋不休都是不愉快的。

It's not necessarily unpleasant.

这不一定是不愉快的。

It's not like you're a terrible person.

你并不是一个可怕的人。

What are you doing with yourself?

你自己在做什么？

Or it's a nuisance.

或者说是一件麻烦事。

I do think that some of the more effective people I've known in life have low activation energy, and they seem to think, make a decision.

我确实认为，我在生活中认识的一些效率较高的人的激活能量较低，他们似乎会思考、做出决定。

Once they make the decision, and there could be some contemplative time first, to be fair, they make a decision, and then they are able to be fully engaged in the thing, and they're able to turn down the volume on their inner landscape.

一旦他们做出决定，首先可能会有一些沉思的时间，公平地说，他们做出决定，然后他们能够完全投入到事情中，他们能够降低内心景观的音量。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Their attention drifts out.

他们的注意力分散了。

Maybe it's in themselves only insofar as it's required to do the thing really well.

也许它本身只是为了把事情做好而需要的。

I actually think this might be the flow state-

我其实觉得这可能就是心流状态——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

ish.

等等。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Dare I say.

我敢说。

Flow is a whole thing, as you know, and it gets bastardized a lot, and I don't want to do that.

如你所知，心流是一个完整的东西，它经常被破坏，我不想这样做。

But there's a real cost, an energetic cost to being in a conversation and being somewhat in one's head, except if you're me, only as required to think about where we could go next, this kind of thing.

但是，在谈话中和在头脑中思考是有真正的成本的，这是一种精力成本，除非你是我，只有在需要考虑我们下一步可以去哪里的时候，这种事情。

It's just not helpful to be in one's head very often unless you're contemplating or making decisions.

除非你正在思考或做出决定，否则经常陷入困境是没有帮助的。

It's great to just turn that stuff off.

把这些东西关掉真是太好了。

I think most people would feel that way.

我想大多数人都会有这样的感觉。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

It must vary an awful lot, I think, because we're usually so attentive to external cues, events, right?

我想，它一定有很大的差异，因为我们通常非常关注外部线索、事件，对吧？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Whether it's an appointment, something coming in email, text, or conversation, whatever.

无论是约会、电子邮件、短信还是对话等。

Sometimes we also do need that space.

有时我们也确实需要那个空间。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I think that there's a hypothesis we could wager would be that one of the things that's so enticing about high-arousal media or social media-

我认为我们可以打赌的一个假设是，高唤醒媒体或社交媒体如此诱人的事情之一是——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

is that it takes people out of their heads.

是它让人们失去了理智。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm just throwing this out there for sake of discussion.

我只是为了讨论而把它扔在那里。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Why not?

为什么不呢？

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Maybe it's not about what they're seeing as much as what they're not having to think about.

也许重要的不是他们看到了什么，而是他们不必思考什么。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I know a lot of people that listen to audiobooks.

我认识很多人听有声读物。

I have a friend, she tells me that she has to be really careful that she doesn't listen to certain types of audiobooks.

我有一个朋友，她告诉我她必须非常小心，不要听某些类型的有声读物。

She'll just use that as a way to detach from a bunch of other stuff that she just doesn't want to think about.

她只是用它来摆脱其他她不想去想的事情。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Right.

对。

Okay.

好的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There's a whole market for distraction and numbing and arousal and-

有一个完整的市场可以分散注意力、使人麻木、使人兴奋，而且——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

thinking in a structured way internally is not easy.

在内部以结构化的方式思考并不容易。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

I was about to say it's hard, right?

我本来想说这很难吧？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's hard.

这很难。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

So it's like this thing we were talking about.

就像我们正在谈论的这件事一样。

Making a decision can be hard for some people.

对于某些人来说，做出决定可能很困难。

Thinking through a problem and the potential solutions.

思考问题和潜在的解决方案。

There are some people who love it.

有一些人喜欢它。

They love the permutations.

他们喜欢排列。

Here's the problem.

问题就在这里。

How many ways could I solve it?

有多少种方法可以解决？

And they'll go down one route and think in a branching tree.

他们会沿着一条路线走，在一棵分支树上思考。

Ah, yeah, if you go down this route, you could do A, B, or C On the other hand, if you go down this route, you could do D and F, and they love that.

啊，是的，如果你沿着这条路走，你可以做 A、B 或 C，另一方面，如果你沿着这条路走，你可以做 D 和 F，他们喜欢这样。

They love the fact that there are these permutations whereas for me, I'd rather narrow it down very quickly and go down, "This is my favored route, and okay, there are one or two choices to be made here." So there are different styles of thinking in your head.

他们喜欢这些排列，而对我来说，我宁愿很快缩小范围并继续下去，“这是我最喜欢的路线，好吧，这里可以做出一两个选择。”所以你的头脑里有不同的思维方式。

And maybe for some people who don't necessarily love the permutations but end up thinking there are so many permutations, that's a big thing to do.

也许对于一些不一定喜欢这些排列但最终认为有这么多排列的人来说，这是一件大事。

There are too many choices here, so I'd rather just listen to the audiobook.

这里的选择太多了，所以我宁愿只听有声读物。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I have a colleague at Stanford, I'm sure you've heard of him, Karl Deisseroth-

我在斯坦福大学有一位同事，我相信你听说过他，Karl Deisseroth-

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

psychiatrist, developer, co-developer with several others of optogenetics, and when he came on the podcast, he was actually our first guest.

精神病学家、开发人员、与其他几位光遗传学专家的共同开发人员，当他出现在播客上时，他实际上是我们的第一位客人。

He said that he spends time every night after his then young kids went to sleep, and now still he'll spend an hour or two just forcing himself to think in complete sentences.

他说，他每天晚上都会在孩子们入睡后花一些时间，现在他仍然会花一两个小时强迫自己思考完整的句子。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Hm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's no small task.

这可不是一件小事。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

What discipline.

什么纪律。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right?

对吗？

I think most of us who like to think and think about permutations will often write and do flow charts because it's a little bit out there.

我认为我们大多数喜欢思考和思考排列的人经常会编写和制作流程图，因为它有点不存在。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's a little easier than structuring everything in here.

这比在这里构建所有内容要容易一些。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Well, you have to have such a great working memory system if you've got it all in here.

好吧，如果你已经拥有了这一切，那么你必须拥有如此出色的工作记忆系统。

And as we know, the more you put into that working memory system, the bigger the burden, right?

我们知道，你投入工作记忆系统的越多，负担就越大，对吗？

Capacity limits mean that you can't hold, most of us can't hold lots and lots of permutations.

容量限制意味着你无法容纳，我们大多数人都无法容纳很多很多的排列。

We may be limited, and maybe that's what I'm expressing in myself, is I like to keep it really focused and have two or three alternatives in my working memory system.

我们可能是有限的，也许这就是我自己所表达的，我喜欢保持真正的专注，并在我的工作记忆系统中有两到三个替代方案。

Whereas if you're confronted with 15, 20 possible solutions, that's quite a hard thing for the working memory system to hold onto.

然而，如果你面临 15 种、20 种可能的解决方案，那么工作记忆系统就很难坚持下去。

And our own work in memory has suggested the quality of the information you have for the stuff you hold is diluted.

我们自己的记忆研究表明，你所拥有的东西的信息质量被稀释了。

The more you add into the working memory system, the quality with which you remember each bit of information is reduced.

您向工作记忆系统添加的内容越多，您记住每一位信息的质量就会降低。

So there is also a cost from holding everything in mind.

因此，把一切都牢记在心也是有代价的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I don't know if these studies still hold, but my last read of the studies on working memory and dopamine suggested that some people have a low, others medium, and others, quote-unquote, "high level of baseline dopamine." This is a tricky term, and our science colleagues-

我不知道这些研究是否仍然成立，但我上次阅读的有关工作记忆和多巴胺的研究表明，有些人的基线多巴胺水平较低，其他人中等，而另一些人则“基线多巴胺水平较高”。这是一个棘手的术语，我们的科学同事——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

they're going to go, might roll their eyes a little bit at the way I'm describing it, but for sake of discussion, low, medium, or high baseline dopamine, and that if you give somebody a drug to increase the amount of dopamine in their system and they are in the low or medium baseline group-

他们会去，可能会对我描述的方式稍微翻白眼，但为了讨论，低、中或高基线多巴胺，如果你给某人一种药物来增加他们系统中的多巴胺含量，而他们属于低或中基线组——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

they experience a boost in working memory, their ability to keep thoughts online for short periods of time, make use of that information.

他们的工作记忆力得到了提升，他们能够在短时间内保持思想在线，并利用这些信息。

But that somebody who's already ceilinged out-

但那个已经走出天花板的人——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

on dopamine doesn't afford them a benefit, maybe even degrades their ability.

多巴胺不会给他们带来任何好处，甚至可能会降低他们的能力。

I find those studies fascinating, especially given the fact that so many people take stimulants.

我发现这些研究很有趣，特别是考虑到这么多人服用兴奋剂。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Whereas a few years ago, there were some people taking Adderall, Ritalin, and most every 90% of adults drink caffeine worldwide.

几年前，有些人服用阿得拉、利他林，而全世界几乎每 90% 的成年人都会喝咖啡因。

It's incredible.

太不可思议了。

Now, nicotine is everywhere.

现在，尼古丁无处不在。

Oral nicotine use in women, men, young people, and dopamine's a big part of the nicotine story.

女性、男性、年轻人都口服尼古丁，而多巴胺是尼古丁故事的重要组成部分。

Acetylcholine as well.

还有乙酰胆碱。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So these people who are now addicted to nicotine, I don't care what people say, you're not necessarily robbing people to get money for your pouches of nicotine, but tell them to stop, and then it's like, "I'm not going to stop." They go from one pouch to three to eight to a canister every couple of days or even day.

所以这些现在对尼古丁上瘾的人，我不在乎人们怎么说，你不一定是为了买尼古丁袋而抢劫别人，而是告诉他们停止，然后就像是，“我不会停止。”每隔几天甚至一天，它们就会从一个袋子变成三到八个到一个罐子。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This is happening.

这正在发生。

I'm not judging it, but chances are they're not getting a cognitive benefit, right?

我不是在评判它，但他们很可能没有获得认知上的好处，对吗？

That they're just able to hang in there with their normal baseline.

他们能够以正常的基线坚持下去。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

My reading of that literature, the psychopharmacology literature in terms of cognitive enhancement, is absolutely what you said.

我阅读的那些文献，关于认知增强方面的精神药理学文献，绝对是你所说的。

If you start from a low baseline of performance, you might get some positive boost.

如果你从较低的绩效基线开始，你可能会得到一些积极的提升。

It's quite small, but you might get it.

它很小，但你可能会得到它。

But if you are actually quite a high performer, then you risk getting worse-

但如果你实际上是一个表现相当出色的人，那么你就有可能变得更糟——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

...

...

with, this is called the inverse U-shaped curve for dopamine.

这被称为多巴胺的倒 U 形曲线。

And so I tell the students that I teach about this sort of stuff, "You're probably not going to be in that low baseline state given where you're here at this university, so just think twice about taking some stimulant that you want to get a better grade, because actually, the evidence would be that you might get worse-

所以我告诉学生，我教授这类东西，“考虑到你在这所大学的位置，你可能不会处于那种低基线状态，所以在服用一些你想要获得更好成绩的兴奋剂时要三思而后行，因为实际上，证据表明你可能会变得更糟——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

...

...

from doing it." So yeah, you have to be very careful with this.

从这样做。”所以是的，你必须非常小心这一点。

There seem to be real individual differences which depend on our intrinsic chemistry, neurochemistry.

似乎存在真正的个体差异，这取决于我们内在的化学反应，神经化学反应。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The history of nicotine is fascinating.

尼古丁的历史非常有趣。

It's almost as if ever since humans discovered it, they find some way to get it into their system.

就好像自从人类发现它以来，他们就找到了某种方法将其输入到他们的系统中。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And once they figure out that that way is really bad for them, like it can kill them from lung cancer, takes a couple of years and they figure out another way.

一旦他们发现这种方法对他们来说真的很糟糕，就像它可以杀死他们死于肺癌一样，需要几年的时间，他们才会想出另一种方法。

And then it's almost like humans love to eat and consume plant alkaloids.

这几乎就像人类喜欢吃和消耗植物生物碱一样。

Like, they just have to do it.

就像，他们只需要这样做。

They just got to feel different than their natural chemistry will allow them to.

他们只是需要感受到与自然化学所允许的不同的感觉。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

This is our culture, right?

这就是我们的文化，对吧？

That's what's happened over years.

这就是多年来发生的事情。

As you say, if we look back, let's say, in South America, cultures of how people use stimulants in various ways, that goes back thousands of years.

正如你所说，如果我们回顾一下，比如说在南美洲，人们如​​何以各种方式使用兴奋剂的文化可以追溯到几千年前。

It's not something new.

这不是什么新鲜事。

So this is what our brains are used to in terms of stimulation in some way.

这就是我们的大脑在某种程度上习惯于接受刺激的方式。

And many of the drugs of addiction, okay, not the more modern things, but have that propensity, have been around because the culture has allowed that to happen in some way.

许多成瘾药物，好吧，不是更现代的东西，但有这种倾向，已经存在，因为文化以某种方式允许这种情况发生。

So this is really important, I think, in terms of how our neurochemistries sort of interfaces with our cultures.

所以我认为，就我们的神经化学如何与我们的文化相互作用而言，这非常重要。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I have to imagine that given you work on attention, and you work on motivation and apathy, that you get a lot of emails from parents or even kids and young people about ADHD.

我必须想象，如果你努力提高注意力，努力提高动机和冷漠，你会收到很多来自父母甚至孩子和年轻人的关于多动症的电子邮件。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And many people think that they have attentional issues.

许多人认为他们有注意力问题。

Do you think there are a lot of people that Don't necessarily have attentional issues, they just haven't figured out how to stop and think and make a decision about what to do next.

你是否认为有很多人不一定有注意力问题，他们只是还没弄清楚如何停下来思考并决定下一步该做什么。

I'm not trying to be disparaging here.

我并不是想在这里贬低。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I think that as each of the psychiatric disorders has become more in the public discussion, like people will say, "OCD." They'll say, "Oh, on the spectrum." They'll say-

我认为，随着每种精神疾病越来越受到公众讨论，就像人们会说的“强迫症”一样。他们会说，“哦，在频谱上。”他们会说——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

"I have ADHD." And these are real clinical issues.

“我患有多动症。”这些都是真正的临床问题。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But I think there's kind of a feedback where people start to notice their lack of attention.

但我认为，人们开始注意到自己缺乏关注，这是一种反馈。

Maybe I have ADHD.

也许我患有多动症。

Maybe I should take stimulants.

也许我应该服用兴奋剂。

Do you get a lot of questions about ADHD, and do you think it's a real thing for many adults, for many kids, or do you think there's kind of a perception that we have an issue that we don't necessarily have, it's just lack of good old discipline?

您是否有很多关于多动症的问题？您认为这对于许多成年人、许多孩子来说是真实存在的吗？或者您是否认为我们有一个不一定存在的问题，这只是缺乏良好的旧纪律？

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

I do get a lot of questions.

我确实收到很多问题。

I think it is a real issue for some people.

我认为这对某些人来说是一个真正的问题。

Interestingly, the number of people who remain with the diagnosis of ADHD into adulthood, if they had it as children-

有趣的是，如果他们小时候患有多动症，那么有多少人在成年后仍被诊断为多动症——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm

毫米

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

...

...

can reduce, actually.

实际上可以减少。

The numbers reduce in terms of people who continue to have adulthood.

对于继续成年的人来说，这个数字会减少。

So that's interesting, that there is some plasticity in the brain.

有趣的是，大脑具有一定的可塑性。

But I also think that this is not mutually incompatible with the view that there's also over-diagnosis.

但我也认为这与过度诊断的观点并不矛盾。

And I think we need very careful ways of making diagnosis, because the conventional way is you take a history from a person about what the problem is.

我认为我们需要非常仔细的诊断方法，因为传统的方法是从一个人的病史中了解问题所在。

You may then do some degree of cognitive testing, and that degree of cognitive testing varies enormously between different specialists.

然后，您可以进行某种程度的认知测试，而不同专家之间的认知测试程度差异很大。

And then you have to decide where is normality.

然后你必须决定哪里是正常的。

Essentially, that's what you're asking.

本质上，这就是你要问的。

Because you and I also get attention lapses from time to time.

因为你和我也会时不时地出现注意力不集中的情况。

We also don't always perform well.

我们也并不总是表现出色。

We have difficulty in sustaining attention.

我们很难保持注意力。

So where do we put that marker of normality?

那么我们把正常的标记放在哪里呢？

It will always be a continuum, right?

它永远是一个连续体，对吗？

So we're going to have to place this marker in terms of diagnosis at some point.

因此，我们必须在某个时候将这个标记放在诊断中。

And often that might be a point where you think it's actually having a detrimental functional effect on somebody's performance, whether it's scholastic or whether it's in social ways or whatever it is.

通常，您可能会认为这实际上对某人的表现产生了有害的功能影响，无论是学术方面还是社交方面或其他方面。

And then it becomes more difficult because, that's a much more subjective thing to decide.

然后它就变得更加困难，因为这是一个更加主观的决定。

You've got your cognitive test, but now you have to make a decision about whether this is subjectively something that's having an impact on their everyday lives.

您已经进行了认知测试，但现在您必须决定这是否是主观上对他们的日常生活产生影响的事情。

That might be one of the places where some of the fuzziness in diagnosis comes.

这可能是诊断中出现一些模糊之处的地方之一。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Long ago, we had a guest on the podcast who's an expert in ADHD, who shared that kids and adults with ADHD actually can focus quite intensely on things they really-

很久以前，我们的播客上有一位嘉宾，他是多动症专家，他分享说，患有多动症的儿童和成人实际上可以非常专注于他们真正关注的事情——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

enjoy and are-

享受并且是-

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

curious about.

好奇。

Reminds me of the Parkinson's patient running out of the house.

让我想起帕金森病患者跑出家门的情景。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it raises the question of whether we should train to have better levels of attention, longer duration attention-

这就提出了一个问题：我们是否应该训练以获得更好的注意力水平、更长的注意力持续时间——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

by doing boring stuff-

做一些无聊的事情——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

as opposed to trying to find the thing that hooks us-

而不是试图找到吸引我们的东西——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

all the time.

一直。

That too, but maybe we should do more chop wood and carry water stuff.

也是如此，但也许我们应该多砍柴、运水。

You know?

你知道？

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

In the Second World War, there were these studies in Britain for radar operators.

第二次世界大战期间，英国对雷达操作员进行了这些研究。

Because they would look at this screen, it's a very boring screen, and they were looking out for German fighter planes or bombers coming over the channel.

因为他们会看这个屏幕，这是一个非常无聊的屏幕，他们正在寻找来自英吉利海峡的德国战斗机或轰炸机。

Most of the time, there isn't anything.

大多数时候，什么都没有。

But they could have false positives.

但他们可能会出现误报。

They could push the button because they think they saw a blip.

他们可以按下按钮，因为他们认为自己看到了一个信号点。

Or they might drift off, which was more the worry, is that they were drifting off.

或者他们可能会迷失方向，更令人担心的是他们正在迷失方向。

Their sustained attention was drifting off, and therefore they would miss a really important event on their radar screens.

他们持续的注意力正在分散，因此他们会错过雷达屏幕上真正重要的事件。

And it turns out that there is something we call a vigilance decrement.

事实证明，存在一种我们称之为警惕性降低的现象。

Over time, if you're doing something boring and dull, healthy brains, you will find a reduction in your ability to detect these boring, very infrequent events.

随着时间的推移，如果你在做一些无聊、沉闷、健康的大脑，你会发现你发现这些无聊、非常罕见的事件的能力下降了。

You can measure it.

你可以测量一下。

And one of the problems that's been found in ADHD is there can be a difficulty in sustaining attention over time, not necessarily because they miss things, but also the variability in response is something that's become a signature of people with ADHD.

在多动症中发现的问题之一是，随着时间的推移，可能很难保持注意力，不一定是因为他们错过了事情，而且反应的可变性已经成为多动症患者的标志。

They're far more variable than people who are not given that diagnosis, if we believe the diagnosis was made correctly at that time.

如果我们相信当时的诊断是正确的，那么他们比没有得到该诊断的人的变化要大得多。

And I think that's telling us something really important about this, because that variability might reduce if the motivation to do this was better.

我认为这告诉我们一些非常重要的事情，因为如果这样做的动机更好，那么可变性可能会减少。

So you mentioned intrinsic motivation in the sense that if they're doing something they're really interested in, they might be more focused in order to do that.

所以你提到的内在动机是指，如果他们正在做他们真正感兴趣的事情，他们可能会更加专注地做到这一点。

And the neuroscience, I'm not a specialist in ADHD, but the neuroscience that I have read about suggests that it's not only the parietal and frontal regions of the brain which are important in deploying attention to the external world.

在神经科学方面，我不是多动症方面的专家，但我读过的神经科学表明，不仅大脑的顶叶和额叶区域对于将注意力集中到外部世界很重要。

There may also be dysfunction in the basal ganglia in people with ADHD.

多动症患者的基底神经节也可能存在功能障碍。

That's been referred to in some ways as being involved in working memory, but it can also probably be involved in motivation.

这在某些方面被称为与工作记忆有关，但它也可能与动机有关。

So we're bringing these themes together here, that attention might also be related to motivation because you're more likely to pay attention to something that you think is intrinsically rewarding to you.

因此，我们在这里将这些主题结合在一起，注意力也可能与动机有关，因为你更有可能关注那些你认为本质上对你有益的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Maybe we could drill just a little bit further into the nucleus accumbens and this basal ganglia circuitry, because I think most everyone is familiar with the fact that some goals are very short-term.

也许我们可以进一步深入研究伏隔核和基底神经节回路，因为我认为大多数人都熟悉这样一个事实，即有些目标是非常短期的。

I'm going to make a cup of coffee, I'm going to drink-

我要去泡杯咖啡，我要喝——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

the coffee.

咖啡。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Some are long-term.

有些是长期的。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I always say, if nothing else, get a PhD because you'll teach yourself that you can work on things for long periods of time, sustain a lot of effort and-

我总是说，如果没有别的事的话，获得博士学位，因为你会告诉自己，你可以长时间从事某件事，保持大量的努力，并且——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

uncertainty, and provided you complete it-

不确定性，只要你完成它-

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and I trust you will, you get something at the end and you have this ability to say, well, I can do hard things, uncertain things over four to six years.

and I trust you will, you get something at the end and you have this ability to say, well, I can do hard things, uncertain things over four to six years.

That's not alone a reason to do it.

这并不是唯一这样做的理由。

Hopefully, you're interested in what you're doing and it really helps.

希望您对自己正在做的事情感兴趣并且它确实有帮助。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But do you think there are ways that this circuitry learns different time contingencies.

但你认为这个电路有办法学习不同的时间偶发事件吗？

It must, right?

一定是吧？

If the same circuitry is involved in motivating to make a cup of coffee because it feels worth it to me to get the caffeine and the taste, that's responsible for trudging through something over several years, an endeavor or relationship of any kind, and it's the same circuitry.

If the same circuitry is involved in motivating to make a cup of coffee because it feels worth it to me to get the caffeine and the taste, that's responsible for trudging through something over several years, an endeavor or relationship of any kind, and it's the same circuitry.

That suggests there's a really robust and dynamic dial on how it integrates time, right?

这表明它有一个非常强大和动态的表盘来整合时间，对吧？

It's a totally different game.

这是一个完全不同的游戏。

In one case, it's like a slot machine-

在一种情况下，它就像一台老虎机——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

that has a high probability of success, like making the coffee, right?

成功的可能性很高，就像煮咖啡一样，对吗？

It's almost every time you'd actually get the coffee.

几乎每次你真正喝咖啡的时候都是这样。

And then the other one, it's like we're talking years.

然后另一个，就好像我们已经谈论了很多年一样。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So the same neurons, they're clocking over vastly different timescales.

因此，相同的神经元，它们的时钟周期截然不同。

How does that work?

这是如何运作的？

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

So I think most of the studies that have been done are over very short timescales.

所以我认为大多数已经完成的研究都是在很短的时间内完成的。

They're what you're talking about, the slot machine type of study.

它们就是你所说的老虎机类型的研究。

We've also done some studies recently looking at perseverance, but again, they're not over years that we normally have to think about when we're making long-term goals.

我们最近还做了一些关于毅力的研究，但同样，当我们制定长期目标时，我们通常需要考虑的并不是多年。

I don't think it's necessarily timekeeping in the basal ganglia that's the issue here.

我认为这里的问题不一定是基底神经节的计时。

I think these are much higher level goals and plans that you might think are being constructed in the cortex, particularly the frontal cortex.

我认为这些是更高层次的目标和计划，你可能认为它们是在大脑皮层，特别是额叶皮层中构建的。

We talked about executive control and planning.

我们讨论了执行控制和规划。

Planning has not been studied in great detail except for some relatively simple problem-solving tasks that patients are given to do, which usually can be done within a few minutes.

除了让患者完成一些相对简单的解决问题的任务（通常可以在几分钟内完成）之外，计划尚未得到详细研究。

But this extended long-term planning and perseverance, I don't think that's something that the basal ganglia do.

但这种长期的规划和坚持，我不认为这是基底神经节所做的事情。

Those networks are there from the lamprey, right?

这些网络来自七鳃鳗，对吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

To solve getting my motivation signal to action.

解决将我的动机信号付诸行动的问题。

But this extended motivation to do something over years for a long-term goal, I think must be something which is different from what's going on just in the basal ganglia.

But this extended motivation to do something over years for a long-term goal, I think must be something which is different from what's going on just in the basal ganglia.

And of course, then it also brings into this issue about what's called temporal discounting.

当然，这也带来了所谓的时间折扣的问题。

So if I say to someone, "You will get this great rewarding outcome, but you have to persevere for one year," or I say to them, "You'll get this sort of mediocre outcome, and you'll get it within a week," people will differ in which ones they'll choose.

因此，如果我对某人说，“你会得到这种巨大的回报，但你必须坚持一年”，或者我对他们说，“你会得到这种平庸的结果，一周之内就会得到”，人们会选择不同的结果。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What are the current data on that?

目前这方面的数据是什么？

Does it divide in some sort of two-marshmallow experiment kind of way still?

它仍然以某种两棉花糖实验的方式进行划分吗？

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Well, the marshmallow experiments have obviously become very controversial-

嗯，棉花糖实验显然已经变得非常有争议了——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah

是啊

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

...

...

in terms of how-

就如何——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I heard they were debunked, then someone came on the podcast who works on these and said the debunk was debunked.

我听说它们被揭穿了，然后有人出现在播客上从事这些工作并说揭穿被揭穿了。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah, I'm not an expert on those studies.

是的，我不是这些研究的专家。

But I think the key thing I'm just trying to explain is that also people differ in their levels of how they will discount the reward that they're willing to take-

但我认为我想解释的关键是，人们在如何折扣他们愿意接受的奖励方面也存在差异——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

...

...

with time.

随着时间的推移。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

And that varies enormously between people.

人与人之间的差异很大。

So what is it that allows someone to say, "I'm going to wait for the bigger reward after a year rather than take this mediocre reward in a week"?

那么，是什么让有人说，“我会等待一年后更大的奖励，而不是在一周内接受这个平庸的奖励”？

I don't think we've really got the neuroscience of that.

我认为我们还没有真正掌握这方面的神经科学知识。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's tempting to say that to pursue long-term goals, you want to break it up into short-term goals.

人们很容易说，为了追求长期目标，你需要将其分解为短期目标。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But I always think about these asymmetries.

但我总是思考这些不对称。

Like if we said that, we said, okay, you have a five-year goal, and in order to get there, you're going to use the same reward circuitry and motivation circuitry, but you're really going to pay attention to the small wins along the way.

Like if we said that, we said, okay, you have a five-year goal, and in order to get there, you're going to use the same reward circuitry and motivation circuitry, but you're really going to pay attention to the small wins along the way.

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The incremental wins.

增量获胜。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Mm.

毫米。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The risk is that you also pay attention to the failures along the way, right?

风险在于你也会关注一路上的失败，对吗？

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because in the end, it's binary.

因为最终它是二元的。

You either get the thing or you don't-

你要么得到东西，要么得不到——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

in most cases.

在大多数情况下。

Certainly with a degree.

当然有学位。

But with wins and losses, they're graded, as we say.

但正如我们所说，胜利和失败是有等级的。

They're not zero or one-

它们不是零或一——

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

they're zero to 10, and it's very subjective.

它们是从 0 到 10，而且非常主观。

And so I feel like perseverance, for me, has a lot to do with making the pain a shorter experience than the win.

所以我觉得对我来说，坚持不懈可以让痛苦的经历比胜利的经历更短。

Like carrying forward our wins and our memories of being motivated, like if we kind of allow those to seep into our self-concept a little bit more, then it's sort of like, oh yeah, you can do hard things, but it's a little bit of self-delusion.

Like carrying forward our wins and our memories of being motivated, like if we kind of allow those to seep into our self-concept a little bit more, then it's sort of like, oh yeah, you can do hard things, but it's a little bit of self-delusion.

But it's a functional self-delusion, right?

但这是一种功能性的自我欺骗，对吗？

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah, of course.

是的，当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I don't know how one could get a medical degree without engaging in some amount of functional self-delusion.

我不知道一个人如何能够在不进行一定程度的功能性自我欺骗的情况下获得医学学位。

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right?

对吗？

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

I mean, it's tough.

我的意思是，这很难。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

You've worked on, as I mentioned earlier, a huge number of issues.

正如我之前提到的，您已经解决了大量问题。

I don't expect us to go into all of them today, but I know many people are interested in Alzheimer's disease-

我不希望我们今天讨论所有这些，但我知道很多人对阿尔茨海默病感兴趣 -

Dr. Masud Husain:

马苏德·侯赛因博士：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and the loss of memory due to aging.

以及因衰老而丧失记忆力。

What, in your mind, are some of the more interesting findings of past, present, and maybe anything that you did in particular that changed your notions of memory and Alzheimer's?

What, in your mind, are some of the more interesting findings of past, present, and maybe anything that you did in particular that changed your notions of memory and Alzheimer's?