How to Find & Be a Great Romantic Partner | Lori Gottlieb

如何找到并成为一个伟大的浪漫伴侣|洛瑞·戈特利布

2025-04-07 | 官方页面 YouTube 官方音频

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

My guest today is Lori Gottlieb.

今天我的客人是洛里·戈特利布。

Lori Gottlieb is a psychotherapist and best-selling author, and is considered one of the world's leading experts on relationships, how to find relationships, how to be in relationships effectively, how to leave relationships if necessary, how to grieve them after they're gone, and how to renew them, all from the perspective of looking inward at ourselves and the stories about ourselves and others that we tell ourselves that can lead us to what we want and what's best for us, or that lead us away from those things.

During today's episode, we discuss how the feelings we experience when we're with certain people are the absolute best guide of how poorly or how well those people are suited for us as partners, and the ways in which we miss key signals, both good and bad, in relationships by not paying attention to how we feel.

Lori explains how to better our communication skills, how to determine if somebody's critique of us is valid or not, that certainly is important for everybody, and how texting and technology has changed relationships, and how to navigate all of that by leaning into our own sense of agency, the things that we can control.

And last but not least, Lori explains how we can all access more vitality and enjoyment of life, and how so many people don't allow themselves to do that because the familiarity of their present circumstances overrides their willingness to move forward.

最后但并非最不重要的一点是，洛里解释了我们如何才能获得更多的活力和生活的乐趣，以及为什么有这么多人不允许自己这样做，因为他们对当前环境的熟悉程度压倒了他们前进的意愿。

This was a really eye-opening episode, and one that I'm certain will help you better understand yourself and what your needs really are, and how you can be happier in or out of a relationship.

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。

In keeping with that theme, this episode does include sponsors.

为了与这个主题保持一致，这一集确实有赞助商。

And now for my discussion with Lori Gottlieb.

现在我与 Lori Gottlieb 进行讨论。

Lori Gottlieb, welcome.

洛瑞·戈特利布，欢迎。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Thank you.

谢谢你。

Great to be here.

很高兴来到这里。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What's the first thing you ask a patient when you're meeting them for the first time?

当你第一次见到病人时，你问他们的第一件事是什么？

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Usually it's something like, "Tell me what's going on.

通常是这样的：“告诉我发生了什么事。

Tell me why you're here.

告诉我你为什么在这里。

Tell me what made you decide to come in."

告诉我是什么让你决定进来的。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And are you listening both to the content of their words and their tone, their physicality?

你是否在倾听他们的言语内容、语气和肢体动作？

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Everything.

一切。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

I think it's so interesting because sometimes people will say, "I'm here because of..." And they'll talk about something very difficult, but they're smiling through it.

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

I think it's very nerve-wracking to come in and see a therapist, and you don't know this person, and you're about to share some very personal information that maybe you haven't told anyone in this way.

And so you want to make somebody comfortable.

所以你想让某人感到舒服。

You want to make sure that you feel like they are not being rushed to share something that they're not ready to share.

你要确保你觉得他们不会急于分享他们还没有准备好分享的东西。

So it's just the process.

所以这只是过程。

I think it's a very human interaction.

我认为这是一种非常人性化的互动。

Therapy to me is not like expert and this other person, and then it feels very asymmetrical.

对我来说，治疗不像专家和其他人，而且感觉非常不对称。

Of course, we're using our training and that's why they're coming to us, but I feel like it's very much a human-to-human interchange.

当然，我们正在使用我们的培训，这就是他们来找我们的原因，但我觉得这很大程度上是人与人之间的交流。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Do you think, because I've heard, but I don't know if it's true, do you think that some people tend to create a lot of internal and perhaps external narrative about what happened, who they are, how people are in the world, how they're not in the world.

你是否认为，因为我听说过，但我不知道这是否属实，你是否认为有些人倾向于创造很多内部的，也许是外部的叙述，关于发生的事情，他们是谁，人们如何在世界上，他们如何不在世界上。

A lot of words to their experience, either spoken or internally, versus people who maybe experience life a little bit differently.

他们的经历有很多话，无论是口头的还是内心的，与那些生活经历可能有点不同的人相比。

Once somebody said in a comment on Instagram, and I still think about this, they said, "I don't think in words, I think in feels." And my first reaction was like, "Yeah, I'm from Northern California and people talk that way sometimes." So I thought, that's interesting.

有一次有人在 Instagram 上发表评论，我至今仍在思考这一点，他们说：“我不会用语言来思考，我会用感觉来思考。”我的第一反应是，“是的，我来自北加州，人们有时也这么说话。”所以我想，这很有趣。

Maybe there are a lot of people for whom language isn't the primary mode of understanding what's going on around them.

也许对很多人来说，语言并不是理解周围发生的事情的主要方式。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

I think that as humans, we try to make sense of our feelings through stories.

我认为作为人类，我们试图通过故事来理解我们的感受。

That we tell ourself a story about why we're feeling a certain way.

我们给自己讲一个故事，讲述为什么我们会有某种感觉。

And sometimes we aren't that skilled, because nobody taught us this, to access our feelings.

有时我们并不那么熟练，因为没有人教我们这一点来了解我们的感受。

And that happens because kids are often talked out of their feelings.

发生这种情况是因为孩子们经常被谈论他们的感受。

So when you're young, for example, and say you say to your parent, "I'm really worried about this," and your parent will say, "Oh, don't worry about that.

That's nothing to worry about." Or, "I'm really mad about this." "You're so sensitive." Right?

这没什么好担心的。”或者，“我对此真的很生气。” “你真是太敏感了。”正确的？

Or because parents are really uncomfortable when their kids are feeling sad because they feel like it's my responsibility to make sure they're not sad, which is not your responsibility as a parent.

You're there to sit with your child and be present for them.

您在那里与您的孩子坐在一起并陪伴在他们身边。

So if your child says, "I'm really sad that so and so sat with so and so at lunch today," and the parent will say, "Well, here's what you can do," or, "That's terrible." Right?

因此，如果你的孩子说，“今天午餐时某某和某某坐在一起，我真的很难过”，而家长会说，“好吧，这就是你能做的”，或者，“那太糟糕了。”正确的？

Instead of like, "Oh, tell me more." And I think that as a parent or even as a partner, when your partner comes to you or your friend comes to you or a family member comes to you and tells you something, often what we do is we try to talk them out of the feeling that they're having or help them get rid of the feeling because we think it's a negative feeling.

而不是“哦，告诉我更多”。 And I think that as a parent or even as a partner, when your partner comes to you or your friend comes to you or a family member comes to you and tells you something, often what we do is we try to talk them out of the feeling that they're having or help them get rid of the feeling because we think it's a negative feeling.

When feelings are all positive because they're like a compass.

当感觉都是积极的，因为它们就像一个指南针。

They tell us what direction to go in if we can access them.

它们告诉我们，如果我们能够访问它们，该往哪个方向走。

So when you say to someone, "Tell me more," then the kid might say, "Well, yeah, it was really hard." And then they'll talk about maybe like why the person might have sat at a different table or what might have happened.

因此，当你对某人说“告诉我更多”时，孩子可能会说：“嗯，是的，这真的很难。”然后他们会谈论为什么这个人可能坐在不同的桌子上或者可能发生了什么。

And we really do have a lot of answers inside if we listen to the feelings, but we're talked out of the feelings, and then we grow up thinking, "If I'm feeling sad or angry or anxious, then I need to get rid of the feeling," as opposed to, "I need to use that feeling." And so instead what we do is we come up with all these stories, like the problem is out there, as opposed to, oh, I have some really good information in here.

And we really do have a lot of answers inside if we listen to the feelings, but we're talked out of the feelings, and then we grow up thinking, "If I'm feeling sad or angry or anxious, then I need to get rid of the feeling," as opposed to, "I need to use that feeling."因此，我们所做的就是提出所有这些故事，就像问题就在那里一样，而不是，哦，我这里有一些非常好的信息。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I had a now ex-girlfriend, we're still on great terms, who we had an agreement that served us super well and that I try and apply going forward, which is nobody tries to shift anyone else.

我现在有一个前女友，我们的关系仍然很好，我们达成了一项对我们非常有利的协议，我尝试并继续应用，没有人试图改变其他人。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Hmm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In my mind, I was the one that came up with that, but I think in reality, she was the one that came up with it.

在我看来，是我想出了这个主意，但我认为实际上，是她想出了这个主意。

Because now I'm like, there's no way I would've come up with that.

因为现在我想，我不可能想出这个。

But I think it came about through a couple different interactions where I would get off work, and sometimes the initial 20 minutes of interacting was much more difficult than it needed to be.

但我认为这是通过我下班时的几次不同的互动而实现的，有时最初 20 分钟的互动比需要的要困难得多。

And then I remember we just came up with this plan where we just decided no one's going to shift the other person unless they're like, "Shift me, please." Like, "Help me relax," or, "Help me get excited about this," which we would never do, right?

And then I remember we just came up with this plan where we just decided no one's going to shift the other person unless they're like, "Shift me, please."就像，“帮助我放松”，或者“帮助我对此感到兴奋”，我们永远不会这样做，对吧？

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So, a policy of not trying to shift anybody, or somebody trying to shift our emotions, I think felt really liberating.

因此，我认为不试图改变任何人或试图改变我们情绪的人的政策真的让人感到解放。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right.

对。

I think what you're talking about is self-regulation versus co-regulation.

我认为你所说的是自我监管与共同监管。

So self-regulation is when you're having some kind of internal experience, you have choices.

所以自我调节就是当你有某种内在体验时，你就有选择。

Like, I'm really angry about this.

就像，我对此真的很生气。

Okay, how do I self-regulate?

好吧，我该如何自我调节？

Not to ignore the anger, because the anger is telling me that maybe a boundary was broken, or maybe somebody is treating me in a way that I don't want to be treated, or maybe I'm upset with myself for the way that I acted.

不要忽视愤怒，因为愤怒告诉我，也许界限被打破了，或者也许有人以我不想被对待的方式对待我，或者也许我对自己的行为方式感到不安。

So it's good information, but then what do you do with it?

这是很好的信息，但是你用它做什么呢？

Can you self-regulate?

你能自我调节吗？

Can you find ways to look at the anger without screaming, yelling, self-sabotaging, whatever people do that's not a productive use of their anger, or your anxiety, or your sadness.

你能否找到一种方法来看待愤怒，而不是尖叫、大喊大叫、自我破坏，无论人们做什么，都不能有效地利用他们的愤怒、焦虑或悲伤。

Co-regulation is important, though.

不过，共同监管很重要。

And that's something that you see, again, you can see it with parent-child, where if the parent can stay calm when the child is not calm, that helps the child to learn to self-regulate.

这是你可以看到的，你可以在亲子身上看到这一点，如果父母能在孩子不冷静的时候保持冷静，这有助于孩子学会自我调节。

And with a partner, say you had a really hard day at work, and you come home and you're just not in a good mood.

和伴侣一起，假设你工作了一天非常辛苦，但你回到家却心情不好。

It's not your partner's responsibility to help you through that.

你的伴侣没有责任帮助你解决这个问题。

You need to self-regulate.

你需要自我调节。

But it sure helps if your partner is regulated, and they can help co-regulate you just because they happen to be regulated.

但如果您的合作伙伴受到监管，这肯定会有所帮助，并且他们可以帮助共同监管您，因为他们碰巧受到监管。

You want two adults in the room, or at least one adult in the room.

您希望房间里有两名成人，或至少一名成人。

If you have two children in the room, like grown children, adults, then everybody gets dysregulated.

如果房间里有两个孩子，比如成年孩子、成年人，那么每个人都会失调。

So it's really important that at least one person is being the adult in the room, and one person is regulated.

因此，至少有一个人是房间里的成年人，并且一个人受到监管，这一点非常重要。

If both people, like you're in an argument, both people are dysregulated, nothing good is going to come from that.

如果两个人，就像你在争论中一样，两个人都失调，那么不会有任何好处。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In which case, is the best option to just pause it until somebody returns to adulthood?

在这种情况下，最好的选择是暂停它直到某人回到成年期吗？

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yes.

是的。

And that happens so often.

这种情况经常发生。

It's such an easy fix for couples because sometimes they think, "We have to deal with this right now." And it feels urgent to deal with it right now because I feel hurt right now.

对于夫妻来说，这是一个很容易解决的问题，因为有时他们会想，“我们现在必须处理这个问题。”现在我觉得处理这件事很紧迫，因为我现在感到受伤了。

Or, "I can't believe you said that," or, "We need to resolve this right now." That can be the worst possible thing.

或者，“我不敢相信你这么说”，或者，“我们现在需要解决这个问题。”这可能是最糟糕的事情。

So it's not like, let's forget about it.

所以这并不是说，让我们忘记它吧。

It's, "I'm going to go take a walk," or, "I'm going to go to the gym," or, "I'm going to go read for a few minutes," or, "I'm going to go relax," whatever that is.

它是，“我要去散步”，或者“我要去健身房”，或者“我要去读书几分钟”，或者“我要去放松一下”，无论是什么。

And then, "Let's talk in an hour about it." Or, "Let's talk tonight." Right?

然后，“我们一个小时后讨论这个问题。”或者，“我们今晚谈谈吧。”正确的？

And you can stay connected during that time.

在此期间您可以保持联系。

So what are you going to do in the intervening time?

那么这段时间你打算做什么呢？

If you're just making up stories about the other person, "They're insensitive, they don't care about me, they don't prioritize me," then that's not helpful.

如果你只是编造关于对方的故事，“他们麻木不仁，他们不关心我，他们不优先考虑我”，那么这是没有帮助的。

But in that intervening time, if you can say, "If I were telling this story from the other person's perspective, what would their version of this story be?

但在那段时间里，如果你可以说：“如果我从对方的角度讲述这个故事，他们的故事版本会是什么？

And is there a nugget of overlap?

是否存在重叠部分？

And is there a nugget of something that feels really genuine to me that I can understand and even have compassion for?" And that's going to help you come back when you have the conversation, but you have to be regulated.

有没有什么东西让我感觉很真实，让我能够理解，甚至产生同情心？”这会帮助你在谈话时回来，但你必须受到监管。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Helix Sleep.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 Helix Sleep。

Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep needs.

Helix Sleep 生产根据您独特的睡眠需求定制的床垫和枕头。

Now, I've spoken many times before on this and other podcasts about the fact that getting a great night's sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance.

现在，我之前已经在这个播客和其他播客中多次谈到这样一个事实：睡个好觉是心理健康、身体健康和表现的基础。

Now, the mattress you sleep on makes a huge difference in the quality of sleep that you get each night.

现在，您所睡的床垫会对您每晚的睡眠质量产生巨大影响。

How soft it is or how firm it is, how breathable it is, all play into your comfort and need to be tailored to your unique sleep needs.

它的柔软程度、硬度、透气程度都会影响您的舒适度，并且需要根据您独特的睡眠需求进行定制。

If you go to the Helix website, you can take a brief two-minute quiz, which will ask you questions such as, do you sleep on your back, your side, or your stomach?

如果你访问Helix网站，你可以做一个两分钟的简短测验，它会问你一些问题，比如你是仰卧、侧卧还是俯卧？

Do you tend to run hot or cold during the night?

你晚上容易感到热还是冷？

Things of that sort.

诸如此类的事情。

Now, maybe you know the answers to those questions, maybe you don't.

现在，也许您知道这些问题的答案，也许您不知道。

Either way, Helix will match you to the ideal mattress for you.

无论哪种方式，Helix 都会为您匹配理想的床垫。

For me, that turned out to be the Dusk mattress.

对我来说，那是黄昏床垫。

I started sleeping on the Dusk mattress about three and a half years ago, and it's been far and away the best sleep that I've ever had.

大约三年半前，我开始睡在 Dusk 床垫上，这无疑是我睡过的最好的睡眠。

So much so that when I travel and I'm not on my Dusk mattress, I really miss it, and when I get home, I just find that I sleep so much better because of that mattress.

以至于当我旅行时，如果我不在 Dusk 床垫上，我真的很想念它，当我回到家时，我发现因为那个床垫我睡得更好了。

If you'd like to try Helix, you can go to helixsleep.com/huberman, take that two-minute sleep quiz, and Helix will match you to a mattress that's customized for you.

如果您想尝试 Helix，可以访问 helixsleep.com/huberman，参加两分钟的睡眠测验，Helix 将为您匹配专为您定制的床垫。

Right now, Helix is giving up to 20% off on all mattress orders.

目前，Helix 对所有床垫订单提供高达 20% 的折扣。

Again, that's helixsleep.com/huberman to get up to 20% off.

再次强调，helixsleep.com/huberman 提供高达 20% 的折扣。

Today's episode is also brought to us by BetterHelp.

今天的节目也是由 BetterHelp 为我们带来的。

BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online.

BetterHelp 提供由持证治疗师完全在线进行的专业治疗。

Now, I personally have been doing therapy weekly for well over 30 years.

现在，我个人每周进行治疗已有 30 多年了。

Initially, I didn't have a choice.

最初，我别无选择。

It was a condition of being allowed to stay in school.

这是被允许留在学校的一个条件。

But pretty soon I realized that therapy is an extremely important component to one's overall health.

但很快我就意识到治疗对于一个人的整体健康来说是极其重要的组成部分。

There are essentially three things that great therapy provides.

伟大的治疗本质上可以提供三件事。

First of all, it provides a good rapport with somebody that you can trust and talk to about pretty much any issue with.

首先，它与您可以信任的人建立了良好的融洽关系，并且可以与您谈论几乎任何问题。

Second of all, it can provide support in the form of emotional support and directed guidance.

其次，它可以以情感支持和定向指导的形式提供支持。

And third, expert therapy can provide useful insights.

第三，专家治疗可以提供有用的见解。

Insights that allow you to better not just your emotional life and your relationship life, but of course, also the relationship to yourself and your professional life and to all sorts of goals.

这些见解不仅可以让您改善您的情感生活和人际关系生活，当然还可以改善您与自己、职业生活以及各种目标的关系。

BetterHelp makes it very easy to find an expert therapist with whom you resonate with and that can provide you those three benefits that come from effective therapy.

BetterHelp 让您可以轻松找到与您产生共鸣的专家治疗师，并且可以为您提供有效治疗带来的三大好处。

Also, because BetterHelp allows for therapy to be done entirely online, it's super time efficient and easy to fit into a busy schedule.

此外，由于 BetterHelp 允许完全在线进行治疗，因此它的时间效率非常高，并且很容易适应繁忙的日程。

If you'd like to try BetterHelp, you can go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month.

如果您想尝试 BetterHelp，可以访问 betterhelp.com/huberman，第一个月可享受 10% 的折扣。

Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman.

再说一次，这是 betterhelp.com/huberman。

One thing that I've observed, I don't have any formal data on this, is that some of the happiest couples I know-

我观察到的一件事，我没有任何正式数据，是我认识的一些最幸福的夫妇-

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

are couples where I would refer to one person in the relationship as more emotive and expressive, and the other person as a little bit on the spectrum.

在夫妻关系中，我会认为关系中的一个人更情绪化、更善于表达，而另一个人则有点自闭症谱系障碍。

And my observation is that part of the reason those couples seem so harmonious is that the little things don't seem to bother the person on the spectrum, because they don't register them.

我的观察是，这些夫妻看起来如此和谐的部分原因是，这些小事情似乎不会困扰自闭症患者，因为他们没有记录下来。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They don't get entangled in the other person's downs or ups, which I guess could be problematic in theory, but just seems like they get along really well.

他们不会卷入对方的起起落落，我想这在理论上可能会有问题，但看起来他们相处得很好。

Because, and I won't stereotype the labels, but these couples that I know, it does happen to be the male who is a little bit on the spectrum, and the woman who's a little more emotive, and it just seems like there's so much harmony there.

因为，我不会刻板的标签，但我认识的这些夫妇，确实是男性有点在谱系上，而女性则更情绪化，而且似乎那里有很多和谐。

And when I talk to him, I'm generally more closer to the man in the relationship, although not always.

当我和他交谈时，我通常与关系中的男人更加亲近，尽管并非总是如此。

They say, "Yeah.

他们说：“是的。

Doesn't bother me.

不打扰我。

I just will listen, or if there's something, a request, I'll respond to the request." There isn't this entanglement of-

我只是会听，或者如果有什么事情、一个请求，我会回应这个请求。”不存在这样的纠葛——

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

"She's upset, so I have to respond," or, "This is really painful to listen to." It's more of a matter of fact.

“她很沮丧，所以我必须回应，”或者，“听着这真的很痛苦。”这更关乎事实。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And, I just think it's an interesting dynamic.

而且，我只是认为这是一个有趣的动态。

It's obviously not one that people can pre-program themselves for.

这显然不是人们可以预先编程的。

But I do think it's an interesting dynamic, as opposed to what you're describing, where emotions can ratchet together like gears.

但我确实认为这是一种有趣的动态，与你所描述的相反，情绪可以像齿轮一样啮合在一起。

And that can be wonderful when people are in ecstatic states or happy, or that there's the banter-

当人们处于欣喜若狂或快乐的状态，或者有戏谑的时候，这可能是美妙的——

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

of certain couples that seem pretty-

某些看上去很漂亮的情侣——

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

emotive is something I'm also familiar with observing.

情绪化也是我很熟悉的观察方式。

But those couples also seem more volatile, like when somebody's upset, the other person gets upset.

但这些夫妻似乎也更加不稳定，就像当一个人不高兴时，另一个人也会不高兴。

And it just starts to deteriorate pretty quickly.

而且它很快就开始恶化。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

You don't want two highly reactive people to be together.

你不希望两个反应强烈的人在一起。

You also, I think, need to think about, there's a saying, "We marry our unfinished business." Right?

我认为，你也需要考虑一下，有句话说，“我们嫁给了我们未完成的事业。”正确的？

So let's say that there's somebody who had a parent who was very avoidant or withdrawn.

假设有人的父母非常回避或孤僻。

That person, if they haven't processed that, will be drawn to the partner who is more avoidant, but not because it feels good, but because it's familiar.

如果那个人没有处理好这一点，就会被更回避的伴侣所吸引，但不是因为感觉良好，而是因为熟悉。

And so sometimes in the kind of couple that you're describing, and I don't know the experience of your friends, but I've seen a lot of couples where it looks like that would be a good match because one person is more in the emotional sphere and one person is less so.

所以有时在你所描述的那种夫妻中，我不知道你朋友的经历，但我见过很多夫妻，看起来这会是一个很好的匹配，因为一个人在情感领域更多，而另一个人则较少。

But sometimes what that is, is one person gets very lonely because they're not really getting that kind of emotional interaction that they want.

但有时，一个人会变得非常孤独，因为他们没有真正获得他们想要的那种情感互动。

So it can be a solution for some people because they don't know how to be with a different kind of person.

因此，对于某些人来说，这可能是一个解决方案，因为他们不知道如何与不同类型的人相处。

But I also feel like you want to make sure that you have figured out your unfinished business, that you don't just have radar for the kind of person who hurt you.

但我也觉得你想确保你已经弄清楚了你未完成的事情，你不只是对伤害你的人有雷达。

So what often happens is people haven't processed whatever it was that they wanted more of or less of when they were growing up, and then they go out into the world and they're looking for a partner, and they literally have radar for a person who is exactly like the person who hurt them, but doesn't look like that.

所以经常发生的情况是，人们在成长过程中没有处理过他们想要的更多或更少的事情，然后他们走向世界，他们正在寻找伴侣，他们实际上有雷达发现一个与伤害他们的人一模一样的人，但看起来不像那样。

So it's like, "I'm going to choose someone who is the opposite of the parent who hurt me." And then you find this person, and after you get to know them a little bit, you're like, "Wow, that person drinks a lot, too.

所以这就像是，“我要选择一个与伤害我的父母相反的人。”然后你找到这个人，在你稍微了解他们之后，你会说，“哇，那个人也喝很多酒。

I didn't realize that." Or, "That person is really withholding, too.

我没有意识到这一点。”或者，“那个人也确实有所保留。

I didn't see that at first." Or, "That person yells a lot.

我一开始并没有看到这一点。”或者，“那个人大喊大叫。

I didn't notice that at first." And you're like, "How did I get into this exact situation that hurt me as a child?" And that's because your unconscious is saying, "You look familiar.

一开始我没有注意到这一点。”你会想，“我是怎么陷入这种让我小时候受到伤害的境地的？”那是因为你的潜意识在说：“你看起来很眼熟。

Come closer." Because what we're trying to do is we're trying to win.

靠近一点。”因为我们正在努力做的是我们正在努力赢得胜利。

We're trying to master a situation where we felt helpless as a child.

我们正在努力克服小时候感到无助的情况。

We couldn't control the situation with our parents when we were growing up.

在我们成长的过程中，我们无法控制与父母的关系。

And now we think, again, this is completely outside of our awareness, "I'm going to win this time.

现在我们再次认为，这完全超出了我们的意识，“这次我会赢。

I'm going to master this.

我要掌握这个。

I'm going to get love from that kind of person." And it doesn't work out.

我会从那样的人那里得到爱。”但这是行不通的。

So I think that you really want to make sure that you are choosing someone for healthy reasons and not because there's some unfinished business that you're trying to work out with this person who is not going to meet your needs.

所以我认为你真的想确保你选择某人是出于健康的原因，而不是因为你试图与这个不能满足你需求的人一起解决一些未完成的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

To go a little bit further into this idea, which by the way, I fully subscribe to based on your explanation of this and my belief that our unconscious mind is driving a lot of our choices.

为了进一步探讨这个想法，顺便说一句，基于你对此的解释以及我的信念，我完全同意这个想法，即我们的无意识思维正在推动我们的很多选择。

My understanding is that what you just described doesn't adhere to mom, dad, male, female compartmentalization.

我的理解是，你刚才所描述的不符合妈妈、爸爸、男性、女性的划分。

And what I mean by that is that I think a lot of people will hear what you just said and assume, "Okay, if my dad hurt me in the following ways, then..." And let's say it's a woman.

我的意思是，我认为很多人会听到你刚才所说的话并假设，“好吧，如果我爸爸以下列方式伤害了我，那么......”假设这是一个女人。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And she said, "My dad hurt me in the following ways.

她说：“我爸爸在以下方面伤害了我。

Maybe he was a drinker, withdrawn, or he was violent," or whatever.

也许他酗酒、性格孤僻，或者他很暴力，”或者其他什么。

Then that woman will seek out men that mimic that.

然后那个女人就会寻找模仿这一点的男人。

Here, I'm assuming heterosexual relationship.

在这里，我假设异性关系。

But if her mother was the one that was the drinker, violent, and/or withdrawn, and she's heterosexual, my understanding is based on the dynamics that you described, she will find those traits in a man.

但如果她的母亲是个酗酒、暴力和/或孤僻的人，而且她是异性恋，我的理解是基于你所描述的动态，她会在男人身上找到这些特征。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because she's heterosexual, she's seeking men for romantic partners, and I think that's very important.

因为她是异性恋，所以她正在寻找男性作为浪漫伴侣，我认为这非常重要。

I think that sometimes we put the mom, dad labels on top of the attraction to, again, staying in the heterosexual framework here, the opposite sex framework.

我认为有时我们把妈妈、爸爸的标签放在吸引力之上，再次停留在异性恋框架中，异性框架中。

And then people say, "Well, why is it that this woman always seeks out these what end up being really terrible guys?

然后人们会说，“好吧，为什么这个女人总是寻找这些最终成为真正可怕的家伙？

She had such a great dad."

她有一个如此伟大的父亲。”

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

"But she had a dreadful mom."

“但她有一个可怕的妈妈。”

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

That is absolutely correct.

这是绝对正确的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

And I think it's so interesting because I think that people think that having One parent that gave you what you needed is protective.

我认为这很有趣，因为我认为人们认为有一位父母可以给你所需的东西是一种保护。

And in some ways it is, but the thing that hurts is the thing that gets the most attention inside of our bodies.

从某些方面来说确实如此，但造成伤害的东西是我们身体内部最受关注的东西。

So we don't necessarily think it, but we felt it, we internalized it.

所以我们不一定这么想，但我们感觉到了，我们内化了。

It lives inside of us.

它住在我们体内。

And so, yes, having a good parent, one of the two, if you have two parents, one of the two is important.

所以，是的，有一个好的父母，两者之一，如果你有两个父母，两者之一很重要。

But it's interesting that it's not like we seek out the person like the good parent always.

但有趣的是，我们并不总是像好父母那样寻找那个人。

Sometimes, again, because we're trying to work something out, we seek out someone like the parent who really hurt us.

有时，因为我们想解决一些问题，我们会寻找像父母这样真正伤害过我们的人。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Such a flaw in our wiring.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Well, I think that's where therapy is really helpful.

嗯，我认为这就是治疗真正有帮助的地方。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

I think that's where people are like, "Well, what is therapy really for?" And I think it's really about, what are the things that are outside of your awareness but that are sort of driving the car?

我认为这就是人们会问的问题：“那么，治疗的真正目的是什么？”我认为这实际上是关于，哪些事情超出了你的意识，但却在某种程度上推动了汽车的发展？

So it's like we think we're the driver of our own car, but often someone else is driving the car, and we don't realize it, and we think, "Why does this keep happening?" Or, "What is happening in my life that I'm not getting what I want in whatever dimension it is," whether it's professionally or personally.

所以这就好像我们认为自己是自己汽车的司机，但通常是其他人在驾驶汽车，而我们没有意识到这一点，然后我们想：“为什么这种情况不断发生？”或者，“我的生活中发生了什么，无论是在职业方面还是个人方面，我都没有得到我想要的东西”。

And so often it's because there's some force that you are acting out that you don't even realize.

很多时候，这是因为你在表现出某种你甚至没有意识到的力量。

And I think the role of therapy is to kind of hold up a mirror to people and help them to see something about themselves that they haven't been willing or able to see.

我认为治疗的作用是为人们举起一面镜子，帮助他们看到自己不愿意或无法看到的东西。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You said that people will pick the person who's exactly wrong for them, who feels exactly right-

你说人们会选择那些完全不适合他们、感觉完全正确的人——

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

at least at first, that it has this kind of come here, this summoning aspect to it.

至少在一开始，它有这种来到这里，有这种召唤的一面。

Like, we feel drawn to it, it feels drawn to us.

That's how relationships start, after all.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

One would hope.

人们会希望。

But in this case, you said that people come to find that that person harbors some of the exact same traits, I'm calling them that, behaviors, traits-

但在这种情况下，你说人们会发现那个人拥有一些完全相同的特征，我称之为行为、特征-

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

whatever it is, that hurt them-

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

in the context of their child-parent relationship.

在他们的子女与父母关系的背景下。

Why do you think initially it presents as the opposite?

为什么你认为最初它呈现出相反的情况？

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

I think it's about the familiarity, that there's something so visceral about this feels like childhood, and even if childhood was not optimal or even miserable, it still feels familiar.

我认为这是一种熟悉感，有一种发自内心的感觉，就像童年一样，即使童年不是最好的，甚至是痛苦的，它仍然感觉很熟悉。

And humans, in general, are very afraid of uncertainty.

总的来说，人类非常害怕不确定性。

They're very afraid of the unfamiliar.

I remember when I was in therapy, my therapist said to me, "You remind me of this cartoon," and it's of a prisoner shaking the bars, desperately trying to get out.

我记得当我接受治疗时，我的治疗师对我说，“你让我想起了这部动画片”，它是一个囚犯摇晃着铁栏，拼命想逃出去的故事。

But on the right and the left, it's open.

No bars, right?

没有酒吧吧？

So why do we stay in this prison?

Why don't we even see that it's open?

And why don't we walk around the bars?

And it's because with freedom comes responsibility and uncertainty.

这是因为自由伴随着责任和不确定性。

We know what it's like to be in prison.

That's been our experience.

这就是我们的经验。

So that feels comfortable, even though we say we desperately want to get out.

所以这感觉很舒服，尽管我们说我们非常想离开。

And then if we choose the uncertain path, we're responsible for our lives now.

如果我们选择了不确定的道路，我们现在就要对自己的生活负责。

We can't blame it on Mom or Dad or this situation or that situation.

我们不能将其归咎于妈妈或爸爸或这种情况或那种情况。

I'm not saying those situations weren't impactful, of course they were.

我并不是说这些情况没有影响，当然它们是有影响的。

But we have choices as an adult.

We have freedom as an adult that we didn't have as a child, and sometimes it's really hard for us to say, "I'm going to have to be responsible for my life." That's terrifying, because we feel like we don't have the tools to do that.

作为成年人，我们拥有小时候没有的自由，有时我们真的很难说：“我必须对自己的生活负责。”这太可怕了，因为我们觉得我们没有工具来做到这一点。

We feel like, again, the uncertainty, we'd rather have the certainty of, like, "I know what it's like in prison.

我们再次感受到不确定性，我们宁愿有确定性，比如，“我知道监狱里的感觉。

At least I know what that's like, and I know the devil you know." And again, that's outside of our awareness.

至少我知道那是什么样子，而且我了解你所知道的那个魔鬼。” And again, that's outside of our awareness.

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I think what you're describing is a pervasive feature of being human.

我认为你所描述的是人类的普遍特征。

If I may, there's this kid, he's now a young adult, but who I've watched grow up from a very young age who got into college.

如果可以的话，有一个孩子，他现在是一个年轻人，但我从小就看着他长大，后来进入了大学。

He was doing really well, then he fell in love.

He made the decision to leave school.

The relationship ended, and I was talking to him recently, and he's kind of in this kind of dizzying spin of thinking about how great things were, how he blew it.

这段关系结束了，我最近和他聊天，他有点晕眩地思考着事情有多么美好，他是如何搞砸的。

And he's young.

而且他很年轻。

I'm like, "Listen, you're good.

You didn't drop out.

你没有退学。

He just withdrew.

他刚刚就退出了。

He can go back-

他可以回去了——

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

and he'll find another relationship." And I empathize with him.

But I passed something along to him that was actually discussed by a former guest on this podcast, Josh Waitzkin, who was a former child chess prodigy, he's gone on to do a number of things.

但我向他传递了一些内容，实际上这个播客的一位前嘉宾乔什·维茨金（Josh Waitzkin）曾讨论过，他是一位前国际象棋神童，他继续做了很多事情。

And he said exactly what you're saying, which is, in a different context, he said, "We get so attached to our current identity and our past identity and trying to resolve those, that we're more willing to stay in that state of discomfort than we are to step into a path of potential success."

他说的正是你所说的，也就是说，在不同的背景下，他说，“我们如此执着于我们当前的身份和过去的身份，并试图解决这些问题，以至于我们更愿意保持这种不适的状态，而不是踏上潜在的成功之路。”

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It makes no sense, right?

And so I passed this along.

We'll see what he does with that knowledge.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yes.

是的。

It's kind of like the misery of uncertainty.

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

The certainty of misery is sometimes more palatable to people than the misery of uncertainty.

有时候，确定性的痛苦比不确定性的痛苦更容易让人接受。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

So you can be certain that you're going to stay miserable if you stay in jail.

所以你可以肯定，如果你留在监狱里，你会一直痛苦不堪。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

But the misery of uncertainty is worse.

So it's really interesting that people will make that trade-off.

因此，人们会做出这种权衡，这真的很有趣。

And the other thing about this attraction question that you're asking about, it's like I had this therapy client, and she would pick people who were exactly like one or both of her parents, and she would be so attracted to those guys.

关于你问的这个吸引力问题的另一件事，就像我有一个治疗客户，她会选择与她父母之一或双方完全相同的人，她会被这些人所吸引。

She would always go for them, and she'd say, "Men are terrible.

她总是会支持他们，她会说：“男人是可怕的。

Guys are terrible." It's like, "No, no, no. The men you're choosing are terrible to you.

伙计们太可怕了。”就像是，“不，不，不。你选择的男人对你来说很糟糕。

But then you go out on dates with these great guys," and she's like, "Yeah, no chemistry." No chemistry.

但后来你和这些很棒的男人出去约会，”她说，“是的，没有化学反应。”没有化学反应。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, let's talk about that.

是的，我们来谈谈这个吧。

What is the flip side of this, the lack of interest in somebody that doesn't overtly or covertly harbor the painful thing that you're so used to?

这的另一面是什么，对一个没有公开或秘密地怀有你已经习惯的痛苦事情的人缺乏兴趣？

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right.

对。

So that's the thing.

就是这样。

She was working out this way of, she hadn't separated yet from her childhood.

她就这样锻炼着，还没有脱离童年。

So she was trying to kind of reenact her childhood with these men, and she didn't realize she was doing that.

所以她试图与这些男人一起重演她的童年，但她没有意识到自己正在这样做。

She'd just be like, "Oh, I'm so attracted to this person," or things like, "I like this guy so much.

她只会说，“哦，我对这个人很感兴趣”，或者类似的话，“我非常喜欢这个人。

I don't know why he doesn't call when he says he will." Right?

我不知道为什么他说会打电话的时候却不打电话。”正确的？

And it's like, well, who is that like?

Who does that remind you of?

When have you felt that before, that like, I never know where I stand with this parent, with this boyfriend?

你以前什么时候有过这样的感觉，就像，我永远不知道我和这个父母、这个男朋友的立场是什么？

And then the people who are really reliable, who by the way, it wasn't about their physical traits.

然后是那些真正可靠的人，顺便说一句，这与他们的身体特征无关。

These men were all physically attractive.

It was she felt no sort of, again, that word chemistry, because there's something very threatening about like, "Oh, there's no friction." It's a frictionless thing where he says he's going to call, and he does.

她再次感觉不到“化学反应”这个词，因为有一种非常具有威胁性的东西，比如“哦，没有摩擦。”他说他要打电话，他就打电话了，这是一件毫无摩擦的事情。

He's reliable.

他很可靠。

He does what he says he's going to do.

I don't know what to do with that.

我不知道该怎么办。

It doesn't light her up in that way because she's not having that big emotional reaction to it, because it doesn't feel like the thing that would give her a big emotional reaction.

它不会以那种方式照亮她，因为她对此没有那么大的情感反应，因为它感觉起来不会给她带来很大的情感反应。

And so once she sort of works that through, by the end of the therapy, she became very attracted to the kinds of guys who would treat her the way she wanted to be treated.

因此，一旦她完成了这项工作，在治疗结束时，她就会被那些愿意以她希望的方式对待她的男人所吸引。

And she was no longer attracted to the guys that she-- So she'd get that initial kind of like, "Oh, I feel something when I'm in the presence of a guy like that, but I'm not really interested in a relationship with that kind of guy."

她不再被那些她所喜欢的男人所吸引，所以她会得到最初的那种感觉，“哦，当我在这样的男人面前时，我有某种感觉，但我对与那种男人的关系并不真正感兴趣。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

So that's, I think, what therapy can do for people.

我认为这就是治疗可以为人们做的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

One of the things that I've noticed in my own life is that as I've gotten older, I'll be 50 later this year, been looking forward to that.

我在自己的生活中注意到的一件事是，随着年龄的增长，我今年晚些时候将年满 50 岁，对此我一直很期待。

I feel great.

我感觉很棒。

But some of the things that I assumed for so many years, like slow is low.

但我多年来一直认为的一些事情，比如慢就是低。

Like when things are-

就像事情是这样的时候——

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

really slow, for many years, it felt kind of depressive.

真的很慢，很多年了，感觉有点压抑。

Now, I love slow, mellow.

Peace is the thing that I savor so much.

But for so many years, I think what you're describing, that sort of activation state-

但这么多年了，我想你所描述的，那种激活状态——

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

of excitement.

的兴奋。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I had a pretty wild youth and then, I mean, I like adventure and I've taken on, at times, dangerous adventures that I shouldn't have, lived, told myself I wouldn't do them again, picked a different adventure.

我有一个非常狂野的青年时代，然后，我的意思是，我喜欢冒险，有时我会进行一些我不应该进行的危险冒险，生活，告诉自己我不会再这样做，选择了不同的冒险。

But even in my scientific career or podcasting, things that feel at times like a bit of a tightrope walk-

但即使在我的科学生涯或播客中，有时也感觉有点像走钢丝——

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

just given the number of variables that I can't control, just by virtue of what they are, and the challenge of long cycles of trying to publish peer-- They're kind of scary at some level.

只是考虑到我无法控制的变量数量，仅仅凭借它们的本身，以及尝试发布同行的长周期的挑战——它们在某种程度上有点可怕。

It's your profession, after all.

But I did the same thing in a lot of my relationships.

但我在很多人际关系中也做了同样的事情。

Lovely people, in some cases.

Some cases not, but in most cases, fortunately for me, lovely people.

有些情况不是，但在大多数情况下，对我来说幸运的是，可爱的人们。

But there was this sense that if something felt like a little bit of an upstate, kind of like a bit more of autonomic arousal, or a lot more autonomic arousal, that it had this kind of magnetic quality to it.

但有一种感觉，如果某件事感觉有点北部，有点像更多的自主唤醒，或者更多的自主唤醒，那么它就具有这种磁性。

Whereas I think, and I'm not joking or lying here, I think owning a bulldog taught me how to really savor relaxing.

然而我认为，我不是在开玩笑或撒谎，我认为拥有一只斗牛犬教会了我如何真正享受放松。

I'm not saying this just to highlight Costello again.

我这么说并不是为了再次强调科斯特洛。

I observed his relationship to the world, and the bulldog's contract with its owner is an amazing one that I think I learned a lot from.

我观察了他与世界的关系，斗牛犬与其主人的合同是一份令人惊奇的合同，我想我从中学到了很多东西。

The contract is, "I will die for you.

I will literally give up my life to protect you, Andrew.

我真的会放弃我的生命来保护你，安德鲁。

But if that's not on the line, I'm not going to do anything."

但如果这不可行，我就不会做任何事情。”

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

"We're just going to sit here and enjoy the sunshine."

“我们只是坐在这里享受阳光。”

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

"We're just going to breathe, and we're going to eat food."

“我们只是要呼吸，我们要吃食物。”

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

"Friends are coming over, and I'll get excited." And I'm not trying to make too much of this.

I really noticed, I was like, wow, he needs so little to be blissful.

我真的注意到了，我当时想，哇，他需要这么少的东西就能幸福。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And yet, I know that if push came to shove, he's on my side.

然而，我知道，如果到了紧要关头，他会站在我这边。

We've got each other's backs.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

As opposed to, let's talk about a more human contract of this picture or story of a couple that they have about themselves.

相反，让我们来谈谈这对夫妇关于自己的照片或故事的更人性化的契约。

Ride or die is something people say a lot nowadays.

要么骑，要么死，这是现在人们经常说的一句话。

It's a beautiful concept, right?

Loyalty.

忠诚。

You're in it together no matter what.

But there's a calm version of that-

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

like ride or die.

喜欢骑或死。

And then there's ride or die, like we'll take on anything.

然后就是要么骑行，要么死亡，就像我们会承担任何事情一样。

We'll bring in chaos.

我们会带来混乱。

We'll be the chaos, and we just don't quit.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Very different activation states.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Oh, absolutely.

哦，绝对是。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it took me 49 years to learn this.

I see it in professional relationships, too.

People want the exciting thing, the big build, and then they're like, it's the chaos of like, oh, this founder left and this person.

人们想要令人兴奋的东西，大型建筑，然后他们会想，这是混乱的，哦，这位创始人离开了，这个人。

It's like, well, of course it started in drama.

It's going to end in drama.

Does some of this resonate?

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah, absolutely.

是的，绝对是。

Two things.

有两件事。

One is that there's this concept of cherophobia, which is kind of fear of joy.

其一是存在“恐惧恐惧症”的概念，即对快乐的恐惧。

And so many people, because they grew up in a way where whenever, let's say the parent was reliable in moments, right, at certain times, and then they were unreliable, or they were really calm, but then they would blow up, and you never knew what was going to happen.

很多人，因为他们在成长过程中，每当父母在某些时候是可靠的，对吧，在某些时候，然后他们就变得不可靠，或者他们真的很平静，但随后他们就会爆发，你永远不知道会发生什么。

It was like you were walking on eggshells the whole time, right?

一直以来你都如履薄冰，对吧？

So you're very afraid of anything that goes well.

所以你非常害怕任何进展顺利的事情。

You think the other shoe is going to drop at any moment.

你认为另一只鞋随时都会掉下来。

So you don't want to pick something that, and again, outside of your awareness, you don't pick the calm partner because it feels too good, like something's going to go wrong.

所以你不想选择一些在你意识之外的东西，你不会选择冷静的伴侣，因为它感觉太好了，就像会出问题一样。

So I'll pick the volatile partner because I'm prepared.

所以我会选择不稳定的合作伙伴，因为我已经做好了准备。

I'm prepared for that level of volatility, right?

我已经准备好应对这种程度的波动了，对吗？

And so people sabotage all the time, whether it's about a job or a partner or whatever they want.

所以人们总是在破坏，无论是为了工作、伴侣还是他们想要的任何东西。

They think, "I am not going to go there because it's not safe to feel joy." Because something will go wrong, and I will be crushed, and it will be harder to have the experience of joy and to have it crushed than to never feel the joy.

他们想：“我不会去那里，因为感受快乐是不安全的。”因为有些事情会出问题，我会被压垮，拥有快乐的体验并被压垮比从未感受到快乐更难。

So there was a woman that I wrote about in my book who she wouldn't let herself feel any joy or get excited about a partner or excited about she wanted to be an artist and doing her art, and things were going really well, and then she'd self-sabotage.

我在书中写到了一位女士，她不让自己感受到任何快乐，也不会对伴侣感到兴奋，也不会对自己想成为一名艺术家并从事自己的艺术感到兴奋，事情进展得很顺利，然后她就会自我破坏。

It's like, "You can't fire me, I quit." Right?

It's like, "You can't fire me, I quit."正确的？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

It's like I'm going to create the bad thing to happen to myself, because if it happens from the universe, it's going to feel even worse.

就好像我要创造出发生在自己身上的坏事，因为如果它发生在宇宙中，那感觉会更糟。

So I think we need to kind of really be aware there are lots of people out there who are terrified of good things happening, even though they say they desperately want good things to happen, and so they make bad things happen, or they make sure good things don't happen to them because it feels so uncomfortable to sit in that space of the other shoe's going to drop at any moment, and I can't deal with that.

所以我认为我们需要真正意识到有很多人害怕好事发生，即使他们说他们迫切希望好事发生，所以他们让坏事发生，或者他们确保好事不会发生在他们身上，因为坐在另一只鞋随时会掉下来的空间里感觉很不舒服，我无法处理这一点。

But the other thing I want to say about this slow burn type of thing is there was a study that was done that I wrote about in one of my books where they did a longitudinal study, and they looked at people over 20 years, and they followed up with them every five years from the first date to where they are later.

但关于这种缓慢燃烧类型的事情，我想说的另一件事是，我在一本书中写了一项研究，他们进行了一项纵向研究，他们观察了 20 多年的人，从第一次约会到后来的情况，每五年对他们进行一次跟踪。

And they had them, instead of historically saying when you ask people in relationships and you say, "What was it like when you first met?" And they'll tell you some story, but it's retrospective.

他们拥有这些，而不是像历史上那样，当你问恋爱中的人时，你会说：“你们第一次见面时感觉怎么样？”他们会告诉你一些故事，但都是回顾性的。

It's not like you weren't there at the time.

You're sort of telling it through the lens of where you are now.

你可以通过你现在所在的镜头来告诉它。

What was great about this study was people wrote down at the time, "Here's how I feel." So people who were, let's say, got married and were happy would say almost unilaterally, like, "There was so much chemistry.

这项研究的伟大之处在于当时人们写下了“这就是我的感受”。所以，比如说，那些结婚了并且幸福的人几乎会单方面地说，“有很多化学反应。

We had such a good time on the first date.

It was amazing." Whereas at the time they might've said, "Yeah, it was okay.

太棒了。”而当时他们可能会说：“是的，没关系。

Maybe I'll see this person again.

Fine." Like, no butterflies or whatever.

好吧。” Like, no butterflies or whatever.

But that's not the story they're telling themselves about it.

但这并不是他们向自己讲述的故事。

Now, people who either are unhappily together or no longer together would say, "Yeah, there was nothing there.

现在，那些在一起不愉快或不再在一起的人会说：“是的，那里什么也没有。

There was no chemistry.

没有化学反应。

I didn't really like the person." But at the time, they might've said, "Wow, I'm really interested in this person.

I didn't really like the person."但当时，他们可能会说：“哇，我对这个人真的很感兴趣。

It was like we had so much chemistry." So we change our stories based on our present experience, and we think we're telling an accurate version of what actually happened.

It was like we had so much chemistry."因此，我们根据目前的经验改变我们的故事，我们认为我们正在讲述实际发生的事情的准确版本。

And the reason I bring this up is because since people who are sort of happy couples tell these stories to other people, we think in our culture that if you go on a first date and you don't have that immediate spark, that it's not worth it.

我之所以提出这个问题是因为，既然幸福的情侣都会向其他人讲述这些故事，我们认为在我们的文化中，如果你第一次约会时没有立即产生火花，那就不值得。

Like, don't go on a second date.

And what happens is sometimes a lot of the time when you have that immediate spark, it doesn't mean what you think it means.

有时发生的事情是，很多时候当你立即产生火花时，它并不意味着你认为它意味着什么。

It's not that a spark is bad.

It means that you really need to see what it means.

这意味着您确实需要了解它的含义。

And it's not that not having a spark is bad.

If you go on a date and you feel like, "It was a nice conversation, and I had a good enough time," go spend another hour with this person.

如果你去约会时感觉“这是一次愉快的谈话，我度过了一段愉快的时光”，那就再和这个人待一个小时吧。

Just go on another date with them and see what happens.

和他们再去一次约会，看看会发生什么。

But we don't do that because we have this illusion that you can just go back on an app, or there's so many people out there.

但我们不这样做，因为我们有这样的错觉，认为你可以返回某个应用程序，或者那里有很多人。

And so we try to optimize as opposed to saying, "What would it be like?

因此，我们尝试优化，而不是说“那会是什么样子？

I felt good when I was with this person.

I didn't feel that rush, but I felt pretty good.

So I think I'll go see what that's like again." And that should be our bar, not like, do I feel this rush?

So I think I'll go see what that's like again."那应该是我们的酒吧，而不是，我感觉到这种匆忙吗？

Do I feel like this is amazing?

But did I have a good enough time?

Sure.

当然。

Let me go see what that's like.

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

One certainly wouldn't want to be bored in somebody else's presence, but calm seems like a good touchpoint-

人们当然不想在别人面前感到无聊，但平静似乎是一个很好的接触点——

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

to look for as opposed to this activation state.

Maybe it's the neurobiologist in me, and I'm guilty of also working on this autonomic arousal thing for so many years.

也许这就是我身上的神经生物学家的魅力，多年来我一直在研究自主神经唤醒问题，对此我感到内疚。

This seesaw in us of being up states that can either be stress or bliss, and down states, which can either be depression and fatigue or can just be pleasant relaxation.

我们体内的这种跷跷板状态，可以是压力或幸福，也可以是低落状态，可以是抑郁和疲劳，也可以只是愉快的放松。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The label becomes critical, right?

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Alert and stressed versus alert and elated is-

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Very different

非常不同

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

same level of alertness, two very different things.

同样的警觉程度，是两种截然不同的东西。

Same-

同样-

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

depressed versus peaceful when relaxed.

And looking for or trying to figure out what sorts of interactions bring about that kind of even seesaw-

寻找或试图弄清楚什么样的互动会带来这种均匀的跷跷板——

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

might be best.

可能是最好的。

Not one or the other.

不是其中之一。

Maybe erring even a little bit more towards peace.

也许在和平方面会犯更多的错误。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yes.

是的。

And when I see couples who come in, and they've been married for a long time now, and they say, when I'll say, "What is the origin story?

当我看到进来的夫妇，他们已经结婚很长时间了，他们说，当我说，“起源故事是什么？

How did you meet?

你们是怎么认识的？

What was that like?

那是什么样子的？

What were you attracted to in the other person?" And so often I'll hear words like, "It was so exciting.

What were you attracted to in the other person?"我经常听到这样的话：“这太令人兴奋了。

I found this person so exciting." And it's like that's the very thing that what you thought was excitement was actually volatility or was actually sort of anxiety as opposed to that sense of you can be calm and feel excited about the other person.

I found this person so exciting."就好像你所认为的兴奋实际上是波动性或实际上是某种焦虑，而不是你可以冷静并对他人感到兴奋的感觉。

So we're talking about a neurological state, right?

所以我们谈论的是神经状态，对吗？

Your nervous system, and then we're talking about your interpretation of what that means.

你的神经系统，然后我们讨论你对其含义的解释。

So sometimes calmness is exciting.

Sometimes excitement is anxiety-provoking.

And so you have to be able to tell the difference between the two.

所以你必须能够区分两者之间的区别。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, I'll just say yes and yes to both those statements.

是的，我只会对这两个说法说“是”和“是”。

I think peace is, it's not everything, but it's necessary but not sufficient-

我认为和平是，它不是一切，但它是必要的，但还不够——

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

as we say.

正如我们所说。

If I may, I'd like to get kind of a little deep and abstract along this dimension of why people are so much more willing to stay in a state that doesn't feel good versus risk the unknown And the opportunity to win in relationship, in life, in career, et cetera, because I do believe that.

如果可以的话，我想从这个维度进行一些深入和抽象的探讨，即为什么人们更愿意留在一种感觉不好的状态，而不是冒着未知的风险，以及在关系、生活、职业等方面赢得胜利的机会，因为我确实相信这一点。

I happen to be reading, it's a hard book, a genuinely difficult book, but I'm really enjoying it.

我碰巧正在读，这是一本很难的书，一本真正困难的书，但我真的很喜欢它。

I'm reading Ernst Becker's "The Denial of Death."

我正在读恩斯特·贝克尔的《否认死亡》。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I highly recommend it to everyone.

Won a Pulitzer, after all.

You don't need my endorsement.

And the central thesis of the book, right, is that we're a weird species because we understand that we're going to die at some point.

这本书的中心论点是，我们是一个奇怪的物种，因为我们知道我们会在某个时候死亡。

We're all going to die.

我们都会死。

And that humans go through these very complicated gymnastics related to ego and symbols, and we create notions of meaning and story to try and distract us basically from this-

人类经历了这些与自我和符号相关的非常复杂的体操，我们创造了意义和故事的概念，试图从根本上分散我们的注意力——

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

really scary reality.

真是可怕的现实。

It's terrifying, right?

太可怕了，对吧？

It's terrifying.

太可怕了。

Nobody really understands or knows what happens next.

没有人真正理解或知道接下来会发生什么。

We can't be sure.

我们不能确定。

And I have this idea in mind as you're telling me that indeed, people are willing to stay in a set of circumstances that don't work for them, even ruminating on the mistakes that got them there for a very long time willingly, when all they need to do is make some new choices that they're fully capable of making.

当你告诉我时，我心里有这个想法，事实上，人们愿意呆在一系列不适合他们的环境中，甚至愿意反思很长一段时间导致他们陷入困境的错误，而他们所需要做的就是做出一些他们完全有能力做出的新选择。

And I wonder whether or not it's because they're alive now, they know they're, quote unquote, "safe now." They're not dead.

我想知道是否是因为他们现在还活着，他们知道自己“现在安全了”。他们没有死。

The number of people I know who stayed in circumstances that didn't work for them for so long, professionally, relationally, it's like how do they do that?

我认识的很多人长期处于不适合他们的环境中，无论是在职业上还是在人际关系上，他们是如何做到这一点的？

And I understand sometimes there's kids, sometimes there's financial issues, but it's always the case that they've eventually gotten out, thank goodness, and they always say, "I wish I had done it so much earlier."

我知道有时会有孩子，有时会出现财务问题，但谢天谢地，他们最终都会摆脱困境，他们总是说：“我希望我早点这么做就好了。”

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I wonder whether or not as a biological and psychological being, we do this because we're thinking, "Well, I'm alive now.

我想知道，作为一个生物和心理存在，我们这样做是否是因为我们在想，“好吧，我现在还活着。

I'm breathing now.

我现在有呼吸了。

I'm," quote unquote, "safe now, but I don't know what's going to happen if I make this other choice." It defies logic, but at the same time, if one just assumes that our biggest fear deep down in our unconscious is fear of death, we'll pretty much stay anywhere where we're continuing to be alive and not in the moment of fearing death.

我现在安全了，但我不知道如果我做出其他选择会发生什么。”这违背了逻辑，但与此同时，如果我们假设我们潜意识深处最大的恐惧是对死亡的恐惧，那么我们几乎会留在任何我们继续活着的地方，而不是在害怕死亡的那一刻。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Sorry to get a little philosophical here, but-

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

No, I love this

不，我喜欢这个

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

but I think this unconscious thing, a lot has been made of it.

但我认为这种无意识的事情，很多都是由它造成的。

The word means, okay, well, it's happening, but we don't know it's happening.

这个词的意思是，好吧，好吧，它正在发生，但我们不知道它正在发生。

But what are we really afraid of?

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I do think ultimately we're all just really afraid of death.

我确实认为最终我们都只是真的害怕死亡。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

I don't think we're afraid of death.

I think we're afraid of not having lived.

So what I mean by that is I think we deny death.

We're all sort of death deniers.

We know it's out there somewhere, but we don't know when or how it's going to happen, and so we just pretend because there's no real, no pun intended, but deadline.

我们知道它就在某个地方，但我们不知道它何时或如何发生，所以我们只是假装，因为没有真正的、没有双关语的意思，只有最后期限。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right?

对吗？

And so we just think sort of we know intellectually we don't have forever, but we kind of think we do.

所以我们只是认为我们在理智上知道我们不会永远，但我们认为我们有。

And so when you think about the stages of psychosocial development, you start with these conflicts that you have to work through at every stage of life, and the one where you're sort of the last stage is integrity versus despair.

因此，当你思考社会心理发展的各个阶段时，你会从这些在人生每个阶段都必须解决的冲突开始，而你所处的最后一个阶段就是正直与绝望。

So integrity is if you have lived a life where you don't have a lot of regret, you feel like you lived the kind of life that you wanted, you accomplished the things that you wanted to accomplish for the most part, whether that's relationally, professionally, or some combination there, you have this sense of integrity at the end of your life.

所以，正直是指如果你的生活没有太多遗憾，你感觉自己过的是你想要的生活，你完成了大部分你想要完成的事情，无论是在人际关系上、职业上还是某种组合上，那么你在生命的尽头就有了这种正直感。

If you didn't, you have this sense of despair.

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

People who work through that and have integrity are not afraid of death.

那些经历过这一过程并且正直的人不会害怕死亡。

The people who are in despair are very afraid of death because they have so many regrets, and they can't go back.

绝望的人非常害怕死亡，因为他们有太多的遗憾，无法回头。

You don't get a redo.

你不会得到重做。

And so I like to, in psychotherapy, really remind people that they need to keep death awareness sitting on one shoulder, not to be morbid, but to actually make you live more fully.

因此，我喜欢在心理治疗中真正提醒人们，他们需要将死亡意识放在一个肩膀上，不是病态的，而是真正让你生活得更充实。

If you are aware of death, if you really look death right in the eye, you have more intentionality when you wake up every day.

如果你意识到死亡，如果你真的直视死亡，那么当你每天醒来时，你就会有更多的意向性。

You say, "I don't have forever." So it's not like sometime in the future I might die.

You say, "I don't have forever."所以我不会在未来的某个时候死去。

It's like you could die today, tomorrow.

Anything could happen.

任何事情都可能发生。

And I think when I write about this in my book where I was seeing this woman who was in her early 30s, and she was diagnosed with cancer, and everyone thought she was going to be fine, and then there was this sort of rare recurrence.

我想，当我在书中写到这一点时，我看到了一位 30 岁出头的女士，她被诊断出患有癌症，每个人都认为她会好起来，然后就出现了这种罕见的复发。

And she was newly married, and her whole life was turned upside down, and she really made me, as the therapist, look death in the eye in that way.

她刚刚结婚，她的整个生活发生了翻天覆地的变化，她真的让我，作为治疗师，以这种方式直视死亡。

You know how you want to say something like, she was talking about the things that people would say to her because we all have this death denial, and they would say, "Did you get a second opinion?" As if, no, she's not going to get a second opinion about whether she's going to die, right?

你知道你有多想说这样的话，她正在谈论人们会对她说的话，因为我们都否认死亡，他们会说，“你有第二意见吗？”好像，不，她不会就她是否会死而得到第二个意见，对吧？

They'll say things like, "Well, these experimental treatments might work." Anything to deny the reality that she was going to die and very soon, and nobody wanted to sit with her in that, and it was my job to do that.

他们会说，“好吧，这些实验性治疗可能有效。”任何否认她即将死去的现实，没有人愿意和她坐在一起，而这就是我的工作。

Even her husband had trouble sort of sitting with her in that in the beginning, right?

就连她的丈夫一开始也很难和她坐在一起，对吧？

And there was this one moment, this beautiful moment between them that she came in and told me about where he was doing something and trying to relax, and he was a great, incredibly supportive of her.

他们之间有这样一个时刻，一个美好的时刻，她进来告诉我他正在做什么并试图放松，他非常支持她。

And she came in and said, "Hey, there's this thing, and I read about this, and I want to talk to you about this." And he said, "Can't we just have one night off from cancer?" And she said, "I don't get any nights off from cancer.

她进来说：“嘿，有这样的事情，我读到了这件事，我想和你谈谈这件事。”他说：“我们就不能远离癌症一晚吗？”她说：“我没有一个晚上能摆脱癌症。

There's no nights off." Right?

And I understand both perspectives on that, but it brought up this beautiful conversation between them that really helped them to think about how much do we let death in, and how much do we let sort of life or whatever's left in, and how do we let death inform the aliveness that we still have?

我理解这两种观点，但这引发了他们之间的这段美妙的对话，这确实帮助他们思考我们到底让死亡进入了多少，我们让生命或剩下的东西进入了多少，以及我们如何让死亡告诉我们仍然拥有的活力？

So I think it's really important that-- Why do people stay in relationships too long?

所以我认为非常重要的是——为什么人们会在一段关系中维持太久？

Why do they stay in jobs too long?

Why do they make choices that are not serving them and that they will later regret?

为什么他们会做出不利于他们并且事后会后悔的选择？

It's because they are in full-blown death denial.

这是因为他们完全否认死亡。

And I think when people really acknowledge their mortality, it's one of the most healthy, invigorating things that they can bring into their lives.

我认为，当人们真正承认自己的死亡时，这是他们可以带入生活的最健康、最有活力的事情之一。

When people say what is the opposite of depression, it's not happiness, it's vitality.

当人们说抑郁症的反面是什么时，它不是幸福，而是活力。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

And where do we get vitality?

From knowing that we have a limited time here, and we get to choose how we spend it.

因为我们知道我们在这里的时间有限，所以我们可以选择如何度过它。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I agree 100%.

我100%同意。

This is something I think about constantly, although I've never looked at it through the lens that you just presented it, and I love what I just learned from you, which is that vitality is the state of being.

这是我不断思考的事情，尽管我从未通过你刚才呈现的镜头来看待它，而且我喜欢我刚刚从你那里学到的东西，那就是活力就是存在的状态。

Vitality is so key.

活力是如此关键。

I think about death probably more than I should.

Because for a kid who wasn't from the inner city or in the military, I've just had a lot of friends die.

因为对于一个既不是来自内城区也不是在军队的孩子来说，我有很多朋友去世了。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

A lot of suicides, a lot of drug stuff, unfortunately, and all three of my scientific advisors, suicide, cancer, cancer.

不幸的是，很多人自杀，很多人吸毒，还有我的三位科学顾问，自杀，癌症，癌症。

I was very close with all of them, and I only got to say goodbye to the second one.

我和他们所有人都非常亲密，我只得和第二个人说再见。

That was a rough conversation.

Anyone that's ever had a conversation with somebody where it's a goodbye conversation.

任何曾经与某人进行过告别谈话的人。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I had to do the like, "This is it."

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it was brutal, but I don't want to well up.

I've cried before on this podcast.

I don't feel like doing it today.

I don't have a problem with crying from time to time on camera, but I don't want the plot line here to shift too much.

我不介意时不时地在镜头前哭泣，但我不希望这里的情节发生太大变化。

But I started, after that conversation, to adopt a practice.

但在那次谈话之后，我开始采取一种做法。

I do this Yoga Nidra non-sleep deep rest thing every day for about 10 to 30 minutes, and there's this moment right at the beginning where you're supposed to take a deep breath and then a long exhale to relax your body, and then you go into listening to the script.

我每天都会做这种瑜伽休息术，不睡觉深度休息，持续大约10到30分钟，在开始的时候，你应该深呼吸，然后长呼气，放松你的身体，然后你开始听剧本。

And ever since that conversation, I've insisted on doing that, and as I do it, I remind myself, "If I'm awake, or if it's not an accident that happens very fast, this is probably what it's going to feel like to die."

自从那次谈话之后，我就一直坚持这样做，当我这样做的时候，我提醒自己，“如果我醒着，或者如果这不是一场发生得很快的事故，这可能就是死亡的感觉。”

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And so I like this idea of readying myself for death every day as a means to access what you're talking about, which is trying to live better.

所以我喜欢每天为死亡做好准备的想法，以此作为理解你所说的——努力活得更好——的一种方式。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Again, not to be morbid, just try to like yes, I'm a biological vessel.

再说一次，不要病态，只是试着喜欢是的，我是一个生物容器。

At some point, my body, my brain, or both will just give out, or I'll get bullet buster cancer is kind of what I always say.

在某些时候，我的身体、我的大脑或两者都会衰竭，或者我会患上子弹克星癌症，这是我经常说的。

Something will take me out.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And there'll be this final

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And that's it.

就是这样。

And the closer that I feel like that we can get to that understanding and be like, "Okay, super scary, and I'm not there now, so I'm going to go back into the world and do the best I can."

我觉得我们越接近这种理解，就会说，“好吧，超级可怕，我现在不在那儿了，所以我要回到这个世界，尽我所能。”

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

And it doesn't have to be scary.

It sounds like you're aiming toward an acceptance of death.

听起来你的目标是接受死亡。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Which is, I think, the way that we get motivated to live.

我认为，这就是我们获得生活动力的方式。

So it's not fear of death.

That's not what I'm suggesting at all.

I don't think we should be afraid of death.

I think we should say we get this precious time, however long we get.

我想我们应该说我们得到了这段宝贵的时间，无论我们得到的时间有多长。

Everybody gets their own amount of time in this life.

每个人在这一生中都有自己的时间。

And so it's an acceptance of that.

It's not a fear of that.

这不是害怕这个。

And I think about how when people are afraid of death, they do things that are counterproductive.

Like a lot of affairs happen in the wake of a death.

So a parent dies, and somebody then feels like, "Oh, I don't have a lot of time left.

Am I really happy in this relationship?

Am I really alive?

我真的还活着吗？

Am I really living?" And then they go and do something like have an affair because they want that sense of vitality because they're doing it out of fear, not out of, "Oh, I accept that death is a part of our existence, and if I'm not feeling alive, is it because of my relationship or my marriage?

我真的还活着吗？”然后他们去做一些事情，比如发生外遇，因为他们想要那种活力，因为他们这样做是出于恐惧，而不是出于，“哦，我承认死亡是我们存在的一部分，如果我感觉不到活着，是因为我的关系还是我的婚姻？

Or is it because I am not actively doing things in my life to create that sense of vitality?" So very often in the wake of some kind of brush with death, like some kind of closeness, like maybe you had a brush with death, or maybe a parent died, or someone close to you died, or a friend, or a sibling.

或者是因为我在生活中没有积极地做一些事情来创造那种活力感？”所以经常是在某种与死亡擦肩而过的时候，比如某种亲密关系，比如也许你与死亡擦肩而过，或者可能是父母去世了，或者是与你关系密切的人去世了，或者是一个朋友，或者是一个兄弟姐妹。

So often people act out, and they do these things to create this sense of, "I'm alive," as opposed to saying, "Wait, what do I need to look at in my life that will make me feel more alive that is not self-sabotaging?"

人们常常表现出来，他们做这些事情是为了营造一种“我还活着”的感觉，而不是说“等等，我的生活中需要注意什么，才能让我感觉更有活力，而不是自我破坏？”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。

AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also contains adaptogens.

AG1 是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮料，还含有适应原。

I started taking AG1 way back in 2012, long before I even knew what a podcast was.

I started taking it, and I still take it every single day because it ensures that I meet my quota for daily vitamins and minerals, and it helps make sure that I get enough prebiotics and probiotics to support my gut health.

我开始服用它，并且仍然每天服用，因为它可以确保我满足每日维生素和矿物质的配额，并且有助于确保我获得足够的益生元和益生菌来支持我的肠道健康。

Over the past 10 years, gut health has emerged as something that we realize is important not only for the health of our digestion, but also for our immune system and for the production of neurotransmitters and neuromodulators, things like dopamine and serotonin.

在过去的十年里，我们认识到肠道健康不仅对消化系统的健康很重要，而且对我们的免疫系统以及神经递质和神经调节剂（如多巴胺和血清素）的产生也很重要。

In other words, gut health is critical for proper brain function.

Now, of course, I strive to eat healthy whole foods from unprocessed sources for the majority of my nutritional intake, but there are a number of things in AG1, including specific micronutrients, that are hard or impossible to get from whole foods.

当然，现在我努力吃来自未加工来源的健康天然食品作为我摄入的大部分营养，但 AG1 中有很多东西，包括特定的微量营养素，很难或不可能从天然食品中获取。

So by taking AG1 daily, I get the vitamins and minerals that I need, along with the probiotics and prebiotics for gut health, and in turn, brain and immune system health, and the adaptogens and critical micronutrients that are essential for all organs and tissues of the body.

因此，通过每天服用 AG1，我可以获得所需的维生素和矿物质，以及有益于肠道健康、大脑和免疫系统健康的益生菌和益生元，以及对身体所有器官和组织至关重要的适应原和关键微量营养素。

So anytime somebody asks me if they were to only take one supplement what that supplement should be, I always say AG1 because AG1 supports so many different systems in the brain and body that relate to our mental health, physical health, and performance.

因此，每当有人问我是否只服用一种补充剂时，我总是说 AG1，因为 AG1 支持大脑和身体中与我们的心理健康、身体健康和表现相关的许多不同系统。

If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman.

如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman。

For this month only, April 2025, AG1 is giving away a free one-month supply of omega-3 fish oil, along with a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2.

As I've highlighted before on this podcast, omega-3 fish oil and vitamin D3 plus K2 have been shown to help with everything from mood and brain health to heart health and healthy hormone production and much more.

正如我之前在本播客中强调的那样，omega-3 鱼油和维生素 D3 加 K2 已被证明有助于改善从情绪和大脑健康到心脏健康和健康激素产生等各个方面。

Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman to get the free one-month supply of omega-3 fish oil plus a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2 with your subscription.

再次强调，您可以通过 Drinkag1.com/huberman 订阅，免费获得一个月的 omega-3 鱼油以及一瓶维生素 D3 和 K2。

Today's episode is also brought to us by David.

今天的节目也是大卫给我们带来的。

David makes a protein bar unlike any other.

大卫制作的蛋白质棒与众不同。

It has 28 grams of protein, only 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar.

它含有 28 克蛋白质，仅 150 卡路里，零克糖。

That's right, 28 grams of protein and 75% of its calories come from protein.

没错，28克蛋白质，其75%的热量都来自于蛋白质。

This is 50% higher than the next closest protein bar.

这比第二接近的蛋白质棒高出 50%。

David protein bars also taste amazing.

大卫蛋白棒的味道也很棒。

Even the texture is amazing.

就连质感也令人惊叹。

My favorite bar is the chocolate chip cookie dough, but then again, I also like the new chocolate peanut butter flavor and the chocolate brownie flavor.

我最喜欢的巧克力棒是巧克力饼干面团，但话又说回来，我也喜欢新的巧克力花生酱口味和巧克力布朗尼口味。

Basically, I like all the flavors a lot.

基本上，所有的口味我都很喜欢。

They're all incredibly delicious.

它们都非常美味。

In fact, the toughest challenge is knowing which ones to eat on which days and how many times per day.

事实上，最艰巨的挑战是知道哪一天吃哪些食物以及每天吃多少次。

I limit myself to two per day, but I absolutely love them.

我限制自己每天只能吃两个，但我绝对喜欢它们。

With David, I'm able to get 28 grams of protein in the calories of a snack, which makes it easy to hit my protein goals of one gram of protein per pound of body weight per day, and it allows me to do so without ingesting too many calories.

有了 David，我就能在一份零食的卡路里中获得 28 克蛋白质，这让我很容易达到每天每磅体重 1 克蛋白质的蛋白质目标，而且我可以在不摄入太多卡路里的情况下实现这一目标。

I'll eat a David protein bar most afternoons as a snack, and I always keep one with me when I'm out of the house or traveling.

大多数下午我都会吃大卫蛋白棒作为零食，当我出门或旅行时，我总是随身携带一根。

They're incredibly delicious, and given that they have 28 grams of protein, they're really satisfying for having just 150 calories.

它们非常美味，而且含有 28 克蛋白质，仅含 150 卡路里热量就已经很令人满意了。

If you'd like to try David, you can go to davidprotein.com/huberman.

如果您想尝试 David，可以访问 david Protein.com/huberman。

Again, that's davidprotein.com/huberman.

同样，这是 david Protein.com/huberman。

Gosh, so much to go into here.

This thing about vitality is so key.

A friend recently said to me something.

I was talking about how, gosh, there's these certain interactions in life that are like, "Ugh, I feel like they pull me in.

I don't like them, and then it just really takes away from what I know I should be doing." And he said, "You know, you have to do things that energize you."

我不喜欢它们，然后它真的剥夺了我知道我应该做的事情。”他说，“你知道，你必须做那些让你充满活力的事情。”

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And immediately I thought, yes, and be very careful about the things that activate us.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There's this difference between being activated versus being energized.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's a little bit semantic, right?

But I feel like something that energizes me is I love cephalopods.

I used to have cuttlefish in my lab.

I love octopuses, and by the way, it's octopuses is the plural, folks.

Not octopi.

不是章鱼。

We'd go into a whole thing here, but I won't.

And looking at one of those guys or gals solving a puzzle, that just energizes me in a way.

I feel it in my body.

我感觉到它在我的身体里。

It's energy that I can use for other things.

It's like an inspiration for me.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And there are many other things that do that.

And then there are things that activate us, like where it's like a stress response.

It's arousal, but it's negative valence.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right.

对。

It's draining.

它正在流失。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's like pulling and it's taking from these things that energize us.

And I feel like being able to notice those subtleties is hard in real time, but I feel like vitality is about the things that energize us.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right.

对。

And so when you talk about that draining kind of activation, sometimes what we do when that happens is we go numb, right?

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

So we don't want to feel anything.

So there's this great expression that the scrolling through the internet when people mindlessly do that-

因此，当人们无意识地在互联网上滚动时，就有这样一个很棒的表达——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

...

a colleague of mine said it's the most effective non-prescription painkiller out there.

我的一位同事说这是目前最有效的非处方止痛药。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Can you repeat that?

你能再说一遍吗？

Because I want people to understand this.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

So yeah.

所以是的。

So it's the most effective non-prescription painkiller out there, right?

所以它是最有效的非处方止痛药，对吧？

And so it's interesting when you think about numbness, because people think that numbness is the absence of feelings, but actually numbness is the sense of being overwhelmed by too many feelings, and so you're shutting down.

所以当你想到麻木时，这很有趣，因为人们认为麻木是没有感觉，但实际上麻木是被太多感觉压倒的感觉，所以你正在关闭。

So when people say, "Oh, I'm numb.

I'm not feeling anything," actually, you're feeling so much and you're feeling flooded.

我没有任何感觉，”事实上，你的感觉如此之多，你感觉被淹没了。

You're feeling overwhelmed.

你感觉不知所措。

And so we need to figure out what are you feeling.

所以我们需要弄清楚你的感受。

So it's actually a state of arousal that you can't handle, and so then you're shutting down.

所以这实际上是一种你无法应对的兴奋状态，所以你就会关闭。

But it's not that you're not having feelings.

You're having so many feelings that you can't tolerate it.

你的感受太多了，你无法忍受。

People say, "Oh, I'm feeling numb.

I'm feeling nothing." No. We need to figure out what is so overwhelming to your nervous system right now.

我没有任何感觉。” 不。我们需要弄清楚现在是什么让你的神经系统如此难以承受。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

My gosh, that's so important.

I hope people will listen to that 100 times.

Because we've heard so much about dopamine hits that I think people have lost sight of the fact that when you're online and you're just awash in all this information and videos, you're not getting those hits.

因为我们已经听说了太多关于多巴胺的点击，我认为人们忽视了这样一个事实：当你上网时，你只是沉浸在所有这些信息和视频中，你并没有得到这些点击。

You're in the post-dopamine hit trough.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And we've been there for a long period of time unless we're judicious about our use of social media, an hour or 30 minutes or 15 minutes, whatever it is.

我们已经在那里呆了很长一段时间了，除非我们明智地使用社交媒体，一小时、30 分钟或 15 分钟，无论是什么。

But hours upon hours, there's no dopamine hit anymore.

但几个小时过去了，多巴胺不再起作用了。

The peak is gone.

巅峰已经过去了。

You're in the trough.

你正处于低谷。

And that's why it feels kind of like, how did all that time go by?

这就是为什么感觉有点像，这段时间是怎么过的？

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The importance of this really can't be overstated.

这一点的重要性怎么强调都不为过。

I think that we hear so much about fight or flight-

我想我们听过很多关于“战斗或逃跑”的事情——

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

and the stress response that I think people forget that another component of the stress response, of drama, of being awash in all this information, and movies, and politics, and violence, and sex, and all that stuff coming at us at once as we just scroll our thumbs, is this thing of bradycardia.

我认为人们忘记了压力反应的另一个组成部分，压力反应的另一个组成部分，戏剧，淹没在所有这些信息、电影、政治、暴力、性，以及所有当我们滚动拇指时立即向我们袭来的东西，就是心动过缓。

There's this phenomenon where when we're stressed, our heart rate actually slows down.

有一种现象，当我们感到压力时，我们的心率实际上会减慢。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Freezes.

冻结。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And that's the kind of numbing, and you're just kind of blanking out.

And I think that's a lot of what people are starting to experience with a lot of high drama input.

我认为这就是人们通过大量的戏剧投入开始经历的事情。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

I see that in couples a lot, where they come in and one person is saying, "I feel nothing.

我在情侣中经常看到这样的情况，他们进来时，其中一个人会说：“我什么感觉都没有。

I don't know what this other person's so upset about." Right?

我不知道这个人到底在生气什么。”是吗？

And then when you really get into it, it's like this person's feeling all kinds of things.

And it's really important that we understand when we are shut down versus when we are calm.

Those are two very different states.

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Could you go into that a little bit further?

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

Well, here's an example.

嗯，这是一个例子。

So a couple comes in, let's say it's a heterosexual couple, but it could be any couple.

Often it is the woman in the couple who will say something to her partner like, "I just feel like I can't reach you.

I feel like we're very disconnected.

I'd want you to tell me how you feel." And because of our cultural stigma around men showing emotion He has told himself, "Yeah, this bothers me," or, "That bothers me," or, "I'm unhappy in this way, but I don't feel anything.

我想让你告诉我你的感受。”由于我们对男人表达情感的文化耻辱，他告诉自己，“是的，这让我烦恼，”或者，“这让我烦恼，”或者，“我这样不开心，但我没有任何感觉。

I'm fine.

我很好。

Our marriage is good." So he doesn't even understand why he's there, and he thinks he's there for her because she insisted on it.

And so when we finally get to maybe something that he's feeling and he finally does open up, it's so interesting because maybe he's sharing something very vulnerable, or maybe he tears up a little bit, so you can tell, your body will tell you what you're feeling, even if you aren't aware of it.

因此，当我们最终了解他的感受并且他终于敞开心扉时，这非常有趣，因为也许他正在分享一些非常脆弱的东西，或者也许他有点流泪，所以你可以说，你的身体会告诉你你的感受，即使你没有意识到。

You see, okay, there's some moisture there in his eyes, or maybe a tear falls, or maybe he actually starts crying.

And her reaction and her whole reason for bringing him in was, "I need you to open up to me.

I want to feel connected to you.

I want to understand your inner life more." Well, he does it, and she then looks at me like a deer in headlights, like, "Oh, wow.

我想更多地了解你的内心生活。”好吧，他做到了，然后她像头灯下的鹿一样看着我，就像，“哦，哇。

I don't feel safe when he doesn't open up to me, but I also don't feel safe when he's being vulnerable in this way." And these are gender stereotypes that we think we might not fall prey to, but we do.

当他不向我敞开心扉时，我感觉不安全，但当他以这种方式表现出脆弱时，我也感觉不安全。”这些是性别刻板印象，我们认为我们可能不会陷入其中，但我们确实如此。

And so it's so interesting that often men are the ones who seem numb or calm, right, which are two, again, very different things, in the relationship.

因此，很有趣的是，男人往往看起来麻木或冷静，对吧，在关系中，这又是两个非常不同的东西。

But that's not really the case.

但事实并非如此。

It's that there's no room for him to express anything, so he has to push everything down, probably, again, outside of his awareness.

And then the couple feels disconnected, and both of them are unhappy.

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This idea that more words means more emotional- ...

I don't buy it.

我不买。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah, exactly.

是的，完全正确。

It's interesting because men will come in if I'm seeing them alone, and they'll often say something like, "I've never told anyone this before." And they literally mean, "I've never told anyone this before." Because when men hang out, it's not the same sort of level of let's talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, right?

Women will come in and say something like, "I've never told anyone this before except for my mother, my sister, my best friend."

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

So they've told maybe one, two, or three people, but they feel like they haven't told anyone-

所以他们可能告诉了一个、两个或三个人，但他们觉得自己没有告诉任何人——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Noted

注意到

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

...

because for women, that's kind of not telling anyone.

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, now you have people concerned.

So if a woman says to me, "I didn't tell anyone," that means she only told four people?

那么，如果一个女人对我说，“我没有告诉任何人”，那就意味着她只告诉了四个人？

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

I don't mean secrets.

我的意思不是秘密。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No, I'm just kidding.

不，我只是开玩笑。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

I don't mean secrets.

我的意思不是秘密。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm just kidding.

我只是开玩笑。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

I mean something about themselves-

我的意思是关于他们自己的一些事情-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah

是啊

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

...

where they feel maybe hesitant to share that, or they feel ashamed about that, or they're not sure about something.

So you can see that difference.

所以你可以看到这种差异。

But I also think it happens very early.

但我也认为这发生得很早。

So I'm the mom of a boy, he's now a teenager, but it's interesting because I didn't notice this till I was raising a boy, and I grew up with a brother, but I didn't notice it, that when he, let's say, he would fall on the playground, right, at two or three years old.

所以我是一个男孩的妈妈，他现在十几岁了，但这很有趣，因为我没有注意到这一点，直到我抚养一个男孩，我和一个兄弟一起长大，但我没有注意到，当他，比方说，他会在操场上摔倒，对，在两三岁的时候。

Everybody would say to him or the boys around him, "Oh, it's fine.

每个人都会对他或他周围的男孩说：“哦，没关系。

Brush it off.

把它刷掉。

You're good, you're good." Right?

你很好，你很好。”正确的？

Even if he was in pain.

即使他很痛苦。

And if a girl falls and she's in pain, they're like, "Oh, honey, come here.

如果一个女孩摔倒并且感到疼痛，他们会说：“哦，亲爱的，来这里。

How are you?

你好吗？

Let's see.

让我们看看。

How are you feeling about this?

你对此感觉如何？

Are you hurt?

你受伤了吗？

Are you okay?" So very early on, they get these messages like girls can talk about it, boys can't talk about it.

你还好吗？”所以很早就，他们得到了这些信息，就像女孩可以谈论它，男孩不能谈论它。

I remember when my son was a basketball player in high school, and this was in actually middle school, and in a practice, he got pushed down, and his arm was not right.

我记得我儿子高中的时候是篮球运动员，那是中学，在一次训练中，他被推倒了，他的手臂不对劲。

And everyone was like, "Get back up.

每个人都说：“站起来。

It's fine." Well, his arm is hanging off, right?

没关系。”嗯，他的手臂垂下来了，对吗？

And so I was like, "No, I think he needs to go to the ER." And of course, he was mortified that I said that.

But in fact, he had broken his arm.

但事实上，他的手臂已经骨折了。

So that's the difference.

这就是区别。

If a girl had fallen down and her arm was like that, people would say, "Oh, why don't you get it checked out?" So what happens when these people get into adult relationships, and this was what they were told about words and talking about things?

If a girl had fallen down and her arm was like that, people would say, "Oh, why don't you get it checked out?"那么，当这些人进入成人关系时会发生什么，这就是他们被告知的言语和谈论事物的方式？

You really see those differences.

你确实看到了这些差异。

But the other thing I want to say about words is women are brought up to think that whenever you have a feeling, you should share it.

但关于言语，我想说的另一件事是，女性从小就认为，只要有感觉，就应该分享。

And my response to that is no. And people say, "What do you mean?

我对此的回答是否定的。人们说：“你是什么意思？

You're a therapist.

你是一名治疗师。

What do you mean don't share your feelings?" You don't need to share every thought or feeling that crosses your mind unfiltered with your partner.

不表达你的感受是什么意思？”你不需要与你的伴侣分享你脑海中未经过滤的每一个想法或感受。

That is not healthy communication.

这不是健康的沟通。

Healthy communication means we have filters, and we get to think about, and we call it mentalizing, how will what I'm about to say land on the other person?

健康的沟通意味着我们有过滤器，我们要思考，我们称之为心理化，我要说的话将如何传达给对方？

It's not like you're regurgitating all of your thoughts onto the other person, and they're just supposed to deal with them.

这并不是说你把所有的想法都反省到对方身上，他们只是应该处理这些问题。

It's about relationally thinking, how will this person respond to that?

这是关于关系思考，这个人会如何回应？

Not like you have to take care of their feelings, but is it kind?

不是说要照顾他们的感受，但是这样好吗？

Is it true?

这是真的吗？

Is it useful?

有用吗？

Does it meet those three criteria?

它满足这三个标准吗？

And if it doesn't, why am I talking?

如果没有，我为什么要说话？

Why am I sharing this?

我为什么要分享这个？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You said it, not me.

你说的，不是我说的。

But I'll wager a theory-

但我敢打赌一个理论——

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

that I think that some people, when they feel something, the relief that comes from evacuating-

我认为有些人，当他们感受到某种东西时，疏散带来的解脱——

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

that feeling or trying to evacuate it with words feels reflexively better to them than sitting with it internally.

对他们来说，这种感觉或试图用语言来排解这种感觉，比在内心坐在那里感觉更好。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So I think people, when they feel an emotion, I think sometimes they feel like if they just talk about it or evacuate it, then they get rid of it.

所以我认为，当人们感受到一种情绪时，我想有时他们会觉得如果他们只是谈论它或疏散它，然后他们就会摆脱它。

But they forget that it has an impact.

但他们忘记了它会产生影响。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right?

对吗？

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yes.

是的。

And what you're talking about is projective identification, so projection ...

你所说的是投射识别，所以投射……

is when you're feeling angry about something.

是当你对某事感到愤怒时。

Say your boss did something to you at work and they upset you in some way, or they were unkind, and you're angry about, or they going to make you work all night, and you're really pissed about that.

假设你的老板在工作中对你做了什么，他们以某种方式让你心烦意乱，或者他们不友善，你很生气，或者他们让你工作一整夜，你真的很生气。

So you're angry, so you come home and you end up yelling at your partner.

所以你很生气，所以你回到家，最终对你的伴侣大喊大叫。

So you're projecting.

You're really mad at your boss, but all of a sudden you're yelling at your partner.

你真的很生老板的气，但突然间你又对你的伴侣大喊大叫。

You're angry at your partner.

你对你的伴侣很生气。

That's projection.

这就是投影。

You're projecting one feeling about someone onto a different person that had nothing to do with the situation.

你将对某人的一种感觉投射到另一个人身上，而这种感觉与当时的情况无关。

Projective identification is a psychological process where you actually insert your feeling into the other person.

投射性认同是一种心理过程，你实际上将自己的感觉植入到对方身上。

So you're angry about something that happened at work.

所以你对工作中发生的事情感到生气。

It's not that you are now angry at your partner, it's that you make your partner angry.

并不是你现在对你的伴侣生气，而是你让你的伴侣生气了。

It's like a hot potato.

You take your feelings and you toss them to someone else because you can't tolerate the discomfort of that feeling.

你把自己的感受抛给别人，因为你无法忍受这种感觉的不适。

So I don't want to deal with the feeling, so I'm going to say something to you that's going to make you angry.

所以我不想处理这种感觉，所以我要对你说一些会让你生气的话。

And now they have to hold all the anger.

现在他们必须忍住所有的愤怒。

You feel great.

你感觉棒极了。

You're fine because you're not holding the anger anymore.

你很好，因为你不再压抑愤怒了。

And now they're the ones who can't sleep.

现在他们是睡不着的人。

They're the ones who are upset.

他们才是心烦意乱的人。

They're the ones who have to deal with what you couldn't tolerate.

他们是那些必须处理你无法忍受的事情的人。

So again, we have to think about why are we saying what we're saying?

那么，我们必须再次思考，我们为什么要说这些话？

Can we be more intentional about how we communicate?

我们能否更加用心地对待我们的沟通方式？

Which doesn't mean you have to walk through a minefield.

这并不意味着您必须穿过雷区。

It just means that you have to be more aware of your feeling state and owning your feeling state and making sure that you aren't using other people in your environment to release your feeling state to something else.

这只是意味着您必须更加了解自己的感觉状态并拥有自己的感觉状态，并确保您不会利用环境中的其他人将您的感觉状态释放到其他事物上。

That you need to learn how you can shift your own feeling state to one that feels better for you.

您需要学习如何将自己的感觉状态转变为对您来说感觉更好的状态。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love that.

我喜欢那个。

I realized recently that thinking is something that we can practice.

我最近意识到，思考是我们可以练习的。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

For all the tools and protocols that I've talked about on this podcast and elsewhere, like physiological size and morning sunlight and working out and zone two cardio and cold and all the things, I realized recently, spending five minutes just thinking about something-

对于我在这个播客和其他地方谈论过的所有工具和协议，比如生理尺寸和早晨的阳光、锻炼和第二区有氧运动和感冒以及所有的事情，我最近意识到，花五分钟只是想一件事——

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

and really trying to work through it linearly, like a challenge, like a life challenge, is so valuable.

真正尝试线性地解决它，就像一个挑战，就像一个生活挑战，是非常有价值的。

And I didn't come up with this on my own.

这并不是我自己想出来的。

I now have a practice of when something feels irritating or activating, I'll just stop, put everything away, and I'll just sit and think, "What's going on here?" And inevitably, there's some growth and understanding at the end of that.

我现在有一个习惯，当某些事情让人感到恼火或活跃时，我会停下来，把所有东西都收起来，然后坐下来思考，“这里发生了什么事？”最终不可避免地会有一些成长和理解。

But it's hard work to think, "What's going on here?

但思考“这里发生了什么事？

Am I activated because it's true?

我被激活是因为这是真的吗？

Am I activated because it's false?"

我被激活是因为它是假的吗？”

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Having to sort all that, you might think, "Well, who has the time for this?" But actually, I would argue you don't have the time to not do it.

必须对所有这些进行排序，您可能会想：“好吧，谁有时间做这个？”但实际上，我认为你没有时间不这样做。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

I think that's the difference between reacting and responding.

我认为这就是反应和回应之间的区别。

So often what we do is we react to something, and that's not processed, not thought through.

我们常常对某些事情做出反应，而这并没有经过处理，没有经过深思熟虑。

And again, like you're saying, it doesn't have to take a long time to just even count to five and breathe and see.

再说一次，就像你说的，数到五、呼吸和观察并不需要花很长时间。

Because reacting means acting again.

因为反应意味着再次行动。

So you are normally, when you're reacting, and it's like that zero to 60, you're acting on something that happened in the past, and you're layering it on to whatever's happening in the present.

So you're having a big reaction to something.

所以你对某件事有很大的反应。

We like to say if it's hysterical, it's historical.

我们想说，如果它是歇斯底里的，那么它就是历史的。

Meaning, and by hysterical, I mean if you're having a big reaction, there's probably something from your past, some reaction that is visceral to you that you're having that is getting layered on to this current situation, experience, problem, and you don't realize it.

我所说的歇斯底里，是指如果你有很大的反应，可能是你过去的一些反应，一些对你来说是本能的反应，这些反应与当前的情况、经历、问题有关，而你却没有意识到。

So that's reacting.

You're acting again.

You're acting on something that happened in the past.

你正在对过去发生的事情采取行动。

If it's hysterical, it's historical.

如果它是歇斯底里的，那就是历史性的。

Responding is, "I'm going to take a breath.

回答是：“我要喘口气。

I'm having a big reaction.

我的反应很大。

I'm going to sit for a minute," again, regulating your nervous system, "and now I can kind of think about this differently." So we need space between...

我要坐一分钟，”再次调节你的神经系统，“现在我可以以不同的方式思考这个问题。”所以我们之间需要空间...

There's that famous Viktor Frankl quote of, "Between stimulus and response, there is a space, and in that space lies our choice and our freedom." That's a paraphrase of it.

There's that famous Viktor Frankl quote of, "Between stimulus and response, there is a space, and in that space lies our choice and our freedom."这是它的一个释义。

But you need that space between the stimulus, whatever the thing is that activated you, and your response.

但你需要在刺激（无论激活你的是什么）和你的反应之间留有空间。

So that's the difference between reacting and responding.

这就是反应和回应之间的区别。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I totally agree, and yet life happens in real time.

我完全同意，但生活是实时发生的。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Parents with kids, they got to pick them up, and they're working, and there's stuff coming through on the phone.

有孩子的父母，他们必须去接孩子，他们正在工作，而且电话里有事情要处理。

My question is, do you think nowadays there's too much communication bombardment through text, social media, phone, and real life that we've eliminated all the space?

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

I think what we've eliminated is there's so much more space in a face-to-face conversation.

我认为我们消除的是面对面交谈中更多的空间。

So when I have young therapy clients who are maybe in their early 20s, and I had one client who was telling me this story in therapy a while ago, and now I understand what this means, but this was several years ago, and she was telling it like this.

She had her thumbs in the air, and she said, "And then I said, and then he said, and then I said," and I'm thinking, "What is she doing?" And then I realized, I said, "Wait, you had this conversation on text?" And she said, "Yes, and it was a really important conversation." And I was trying to explain to her why they were missing certain cues.

她把拇指举在空中，说：“然后我说，然后他说，然后我说，”我在想，“她在做什么？”然后我意识到，我说：“等等，你们是通过短信进行对话的吗？”她说：“是的，这是一次非常重要的谈话。”我试图向她解释为什么他们错过了某些线索。

They were missing what it feels like to be in the space together.

他们怀念一起在太空中的感觉。

They were missing the experience of looking in each other's eyes, of seeing facial expressions and body language.

他们错过了注视对方眼睛、观察面部表情和肢体语言的体验。

And she said, "Oh, no, but we also used emojis." And I had to explain to her why an emoji does not replace face-to-face interaction.

她说：“哦，不，但我们也使用了表情符号。”我必须向她解释为什么表情符号不能取代面对面的互动。

Face-to-face interaction slows you down.

面对面的互动会减慢你的速度。

You can just text anything, and you don't realize there's another person at the other side of this on their phone who is reacting to your reaction.

And I think that this is when we go back to comment sections, we don't realize that there's another person out there.

我认为当我们回到评论部分时，我们没有意识到还有另一个人在那里。

We know that.

我们知道这一点。

But when there are so many times that we would have a very different kind of conversation with our partner, with family members, with friends, in our workplace, in comment sections, if we could remember that there's a human there.

And the easiest way to do that is to see someone like this, looking across the table at you.

最简单的方法就是看到这样的人，看着桌子对面的你。

We can't always do that, but I think when you're having important conversations, that we should remember, wait, this probably isn't appropriate to talk about on text, even though people think that, well, of course, it's so much more efficient.

Actually, it's not, because now you're going to have conflict, now you're going to have misunderstandings, and now you're going to spend all this time trying to repair the rupture that just happened because you had the conversation on text.

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I refuse to argue over text.

我拒绝就文字争论。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I just won't have an argument over text.

我只是不会因为文字而争论。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

And I'll say to people, because I have a client and he says, "Well, I just get pulled into it with my girlfriend." And I'm like, "Really?

我会对人们说，因为我有一个客户，他说，“好吧，我只是和我的女朋友一起被拉进去了。”我想，“真的吗？

Does somebody have a gun to your head?" Right?

有人拿枪指着你的头吗？”正确的？

And this is where I think change-- We talk about what we want to accomplish in therapy, and it's change.

这就是我认为改变的地方——我们谈论我们想要在治疗中实现的目标，这就是改变。

It's not just coming in and downloading the problem of the week and leaving, and downloading the problem of the week again and leaving.

这不仅仅是进来并下载本周的问题然后离开，然后再次下载本周的问题然后离开。

I like to say that insight is the booby prize of therapy, that you can have all the insight in the world, but if you don't make change out in the world, the insight is useless.

So someone will say, "Oh, I got into that argument with my," whoever, "my partner over the weekend." And I'll say, "Well, did you do something different?" And they'll say, "Well, no, but I understand why." Great.

所以有人会说，“哦，我周末和我的伴侣发生了争吵。”我会说，“那么，你做了一些不同的事情吗？”他们会说：“嗯，不，但我明白为什么。”伟大的。

That's good that you understand why, but you need to do something different, because we're all doing this dance with someone else, right?

很好，你明白为什么，但你需要做一些不同的事情，因为我们都在和别人一起跳这支舞，对吧？

And if you change your dance steps...

如果你改变你的舞步......

So people say, "I want the other person to change." And I say, "Well, you can't change the other person, but you can influence the other person by making changes yourself." So if you change your dance steps, the other person will either have to change their dance steps, too, because you're not doing that old dance with them anymore, or they'll leave the dance floor.

所以人们说：“我希望对方改变。”我说：“好吧，你无法改变别人，但你可以通过自己做出改变来影响别人。” So if you change your dance steps, the other person will either have to change their dance steps, too, because you're not doing that old dance with them anymore, or they'll leave the dance floor.

And people are so afraid the person will leave the dance floor, and it's like, well, if they're not going to dance with you in a way that is the kind of relationship that you want, it's okay that they leave the dance floor.

Go find someone who will dance with you in the way you want to dance.

去找一个能以你想要的方式和你一起跳舞的人。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

When it comes to behavioral change-

当谈到行为改变时——

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

are you a fan of small one-degree turns?

您喜欢小度转弯吗？

Or I'll propose an alternative, not as a counter, but just to explore next.

或者我会提出一个替代方案，不是作为计数器，而是为了接下来的探索。

But do you encourage your clients-- Do you call them patients or clients, by the way?

但是你会鼓励你的客户吗——顺便说一句，你称他们为病人还是客户？

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Either.

要么。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

I don't think either is a good word.

我认为这都不是一个好词。

I think it's so interesting because I think that we're just humans, and I don't mean to sound all woo-woo about this, but I really feel like the relationship that you have in that room, it's so unique, and I have not figured out a way to describe it, and I don't think client or patient quite does it, but for simplicity's sake, we use either.

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Thank you.

谢谢。

I've always wondered about that.

我一直想知道这一点。

Do you recommend that your clients make specific subtle changes, behavioral changes after they have an insight, or maybe even before they have an insight?

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

I think the reason that people have so much trouble changing is because the step that they've chosen is too big of a step to take at once, that you need small, manageable steps.

And I think people also forget, this is why New Year's resolutions tend not to last very long, because change is a process.

我认为人们也忘记了，这就是为什么新年决心往往不会持续很长时间，因为改变是一个过程。

And there's a chapter in my book called "How Humans Change," and I think it's so important for people to understand that there are stages of change.

And it starts with pre-contemplation, where you don't even realize that you're thinking about making a change.

它从预先考虑开始，你甚至没有意识到你正在考虑做出改变。

You think something's not right, but I don't really need to change.

你觉得有些事情不对，但我真的不需要改变。

Something's just not right in the world.

世界上有些事情不太对劲。

It's my partner, it's my child, it's my whoever, right?

这是我的伴侣，这是我的孩子，这是我的任何人，对吗？

Then there's contemplation, which is, oh, maybe I could make a change, but I'm not quite ready to do it.

然后是沉思，哦，也许我可以做出改变，但我还没有准备好这样做。

And that's when people usually, they come to therapy somewhere around pre-contemplation.

人们通常会在这个时候在预想的某个地方进行治疗。

They're kind of between pre-contemplation and contemplation.

它们介于预思考和沉思之间。

Something's not right.

有什么不对劲。

They come to therapy.

We get them to contemplation, which is like, "Oh, maybe I'm contemplating making some changes." And then there's preparation, which is you're taking some steps to prepare for the change.

我们让他们沉思，就像，“哦，也许我正在考虑做出一些改变。”然后是准备，即你正在采取一些步骤来为改变做好准备。

So it's not like I'm going to dive into the deep end of the pool.

所以我不会潜入泳池的最深处。

It's like, oh, maybe I need to take some swimming lessons, or maybe I need to get a swimsuit, or maybe I need whatever it is.

就像，哦，也许我需要上一些游泳课，或者也许我需要买一件泳衣，或者也许我需要任何东西。

I need to prepare to make this change.

我需要做好做出这个改变的准备。

And then there's action, where you actually make the change.

然后是行动，你真正做出改变。

And people think that's the last step.

人们认为这是最后一步。

That's action.

这就是行动。

No. The last stage is maintenance.

不，最后一个阶段是维护。

And maintenance is how do you maintain the change?

而维护就是如何维护变更？

And maintenance does not mean that you are perfectly maintaining the change.

并且维护并不意味着您完美地维护了更改。

It's more like Chutes and Ladders, if you remember that game, where you go up and then you go down.

如果你还记得那个游戏的话，它更像是滑道和梯子，你先上升，然后下降。

You can make mistakes during this time because you're forming a new habit.

这段时间你可能会犯错误，因为你正在养成一种新习惯。

You're forming a new way of being.

你正在形成一种新的生活方式。

And until it becomes familiar, going back to our discussion about how the familiar feels really good to us and the unfamiliar feels really scary, the new thing will take a while to feel familiar.

So let's say that you say, "I'm going to eat healthy, and that means that I'm not going to eat an entire Häagen-Dazs or something when I'm sad, that I'm going to do something different." Well, sometimes when you're sad, you might do that again.

假设你说：“我要吃得健康，这意味着我不会在悲伤的时候吃掉一整瓶哈根达斯或其他东西，我会做一些不同的事情。”好吧，有时候当你悲伤的时候，你可能会再次这样做。

But then you don't self-flagellate.

但这样你就不会自责了。

So it's not like, "Oh, it failed, so forget it.

所以它不像，“哦，它失败了，所以忘记它吧。

I failed, and I'm not able to make this change." No. Or you don't say, "Oh, I'm so terrible, and that was awful, and I'm so weak." Self-flagellation is not helpful.

我失败了，我无法做出这种改变。”不。或者你不会说：“哦，我太糟糕了，那太糟糕了，而且我太虚弱了。”自虐是没有帮助的。

Imagine if your kid came to you, and they said, "I did really poorly on this test." Are you going to say, "You're so stupid.

想象一下，如果您的孩子来找您，他们说：“我在这次测试中表现得很差。”你会不会说：“你真傻。

What's wrong with you?" No. You're going to say, "Well, let's talk about what happened." And they might say, "I needed help, and I was embarrassed to ask," or, "I didn't understand it," or, "I didn't study.

你怎么了？”不，你会说：“好吧，我们来谈谈发生了什么。”他们可能会说，“我需要帮助，但我不好意思开口”，或者“我不明白”，或者“我没有学习。

I messed up.

我搞砸了。

I should've studied, and I didn't study." Okay, well, what are you going to do differently next time?

我应该学习，但我没有学习。”好吧，那么下次你打算采取什么不同的做法？

Let's come up with a plan.

我们来制定一个计划吧。

So you need to have, just like you'd have some compassion for your child and hold them accountable Both.

所以你需要有，就像你对你的孩子有一些同情心并让他们负起责任一样。

It's hard to hold yourself accountable when you self-flagellate.

当你自责时，很难让自己承担责任。

In the short term, you can, but it doesn't last because it feels so unpleasant.

在短期内，你可以，但它不会持久，因为它感觉很不愉快。

You're just sort of bathing in shame.

你只是沐浴在羞耻之中。

What you need is self-compassion, and actually, if you have more compassion for yourself, you're more able to hold yourself accountable.

你需要的是自我慈悲，事实上，如果你对自己有更多的慈悲，你就更有能力对自己负责。

So you can say, "Oh, you know what happened?

所以你可以说：“哦，你知道发生了什么吗？

I was feeling really sad.

我感到非常难过。

I had this whole pint of Häagen-Dazs, but it's okay that I was sad, and there's another way to do this.

我喝了一整品脱哈根达斯，但我难过没关系，还有另一种方法可以做到这一点。

So next time when I'm sad, I didn't have enough support, so I'm going to call a friend next time." Oh, self-compassion with accountability.

所以下次当我难过的时候，我没有足够的支持，所以下次我会打电话给朋友。”哦，自我同情和责任感。

Or, "I'm not going to keep the Häagen-Dazs in the house because I know that when I'm sad, I'm susceptible to that.

或者，“我不会把哈根达斯放在家里，因为我知道当我悲伤时，我很容易受到影响。

Maybe one day I'll be able to do it, but right now I'm not going to keep that." But there's something else I can do, which is, I really feel like for me, self-compassion is related to, I'm going to give myself a treat.

也许有一天我能做到，但现在我不会保留它。”但我还能做点别的事情，那就是，我真的觉得对我来说，自我同情与我要犒劳一下自己有关。

So maybe my treat is I'm going to have a healthy snack that I like, or maybe my treat is I'm going to go to a movie, or whatever it is.

所以也许我的款待是我要吃我喜欢的健康零食，或者也许我的款待是我要去看电影，或者其他什么。

But you have to figure out what works for you, and what works for other people might not work for you.

但你必须弄清楚什么对你有用，对别人有用的东西可能不适合你。

So it takes a little bit of experimenting.

所以需要进行一些实验。

So maintenance is this kind of experimentation, but having self-compassion with accountability until you find a system that works for you and the new thing becomes a habit, it becomes familiar, and the thing that you used to do becomes unfamiliar and doesn't feel good anymore.

所以维护就是一种实验，但要具有自我同情和责任感，直到你找到一个适合你的系统，新的事物成为一种习惯，它变得熟悉，而你以前做的事情变得不熟悉，不再感觉良好。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, LMNT.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 LMNT。

LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need but nothing you don't.

LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，但没有您不需要的。

That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar.

这意味着电解质、钠、镁和钾的比例都正确，但不含糖。

Proper hydration is critical for optimal brain and body function.

适当的水合作用对于大脑和身体的最佳功能至关重要。

Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish cognitive and physical performance.

即使是轻微程度的脱水也会降低认知和身体表现。

It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes.

获得充足的电解质也很重要。

The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are vital for the functioning of all the cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells.

电解质（钠、镁和钾）对于体内所有细胞（尤其是神经元或神经细胞）的功能至关重要。

Drinking LMNT dissolved in water makes it extremely easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes.

饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT 可以非常轻松地确保您获得足够的水分和电解质。

To make sure that I'm getting proper amounts of hydration and electrolytes, I dissolve one packet of LMNT in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I wake up in the morning, and I drink that basically first thing in the morning.

为了确保我获得适量的水合作用和电解质，当我早上醒来时，我将一包 LMNT 溶解在大约 16 至 32 盎司的水中，并且我基本上早上第一件事就是喝它。

I also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot, and therefore losing a lot of water and electrolytes.

我还会在进行任何体育锻炼时饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT，尤其是在炎热的日子里，当我大量出汗时，会损失大量的水和电解质。

They have a bunch of different great-tasting flavors of LMNT.

他们有多种不同口味的 LMNT。

They have watermelon, citrus, et cetera.

他们有西瓜、柑橘等。

Frankly, I love them all.

坦白说，我爱他们所有人。

If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with the purchase of any LMNT drink mix.

如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman，购买任何 LMNT 混合饮料即可领取免费 LMNT 样品包。

Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.

再次强调，请访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman 索取免费样品包。

Yeah, for so many years, the field of popular psychology was obsessed with, how long does it take to make a change?

是啊，这么多年，大众心理学领域的痴迷，需要多长时间才能做出改变？

It was like 28 days, and then it was like 90.

大概是28天，然后是90天。

As somebody who studies neuroplasticity, I can tell you that there's one-trial learning, you'll never go back, and there's stuff that takes years.

作为研究神经可塑性的人，我可以告诉你，有些东西是一次性学习的，你永远不会回去，有些东西需要数年时间。

It just depends on the intensity and the consequences, right?

这仅取决于强度和后果，对吧？

And even with consequences, anyone that's seen somebody relapse from drugs so many times over, clearly they're working with more complicated dynamics there.

即使有后果，任何看到某人多次吸毒复发的人，显然他们正在处理更复杂的动态。

I think that this notion of reinforcing change is super key.

我认为这种加强变革的概念非常关键。

I'm really glad you raised that.

我真的很高兴你提出这个问题。

I want to ask, I don't know how to phrase this.

我想问一下，我不知道该怎么表达。

As a counterpoint or as an alternative?

作为对比还是作为替代？

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There we go.

我们开始吧。

As an alternative to one-degree shifts or-

作为一度转变的替代方案或-

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm somebody that always benefited from deadlines.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love deadlines.

我喜欢截止日期。

A deadline is how I get things done.

截止日期是我完成工作的方式。

If there's a grant deadline, a paper deadline, deadlines work.

如果有拨款截止日期、论文截止日期，那么截止日期就有效。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And even if you don't meet them, it's great to see how far off you were, if you did your absolute best and the mistakes you made to lead to the place where you didn't complete things in time.

即使你没有见到他们，也很高兴看到你离他们有多远，如果你尽了最大努力，以及你所犯的错误导致你没有及时完成事情。

I love deadlines and I love rules.

我喜欢截止日期，也喜欢规则。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And so I've become a pretty strict rule enforcer for myself in my life.

所以我在生活中成为了一个非常严格的规则执行者。

And I think one of the rules that's really helped me in recent times with vis-à-vis relationships has been no drama.

Just none.

只是没有。

None.

没有任何。

I don't tolerate any drama.

我不能容忍任何戏剧性的事情。

But that's rigid, I realize, but it's helpful.

但我意识到，这很严格，但很有帮助。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Far happier than I've ever been, truly, in large part because of that.

No drama.

没有戏剧。

But the thing that I had to accept with a hard rule like that is that I'm going to lose people.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So earlier you said that this patient-client, maybe he doesn't have to put up, maybe there's somebody better for him.

There's someone else out there that they don't have to deal with.

I think that one of the things that I notice in my own past and with others that I know struggling with a dynamic with people, typically it's romantic relationships, but could be anything, is you have to be willing to let go.

我认为，我在自己的过去以及我认识的其他人中注意到的一件事是，你必须愿意放手，通常是浪漫关系，但也可以是任何东西。

You can't always resolve the conflict.

你不可能总是解决冲突。

And I find that a lot of people, maybe it's this childhood thing, they feel like they have to remain on great terms, or they have to stay friends, or they have to put a bow on it.

我发现很多人，也许这是童年的事情，他们觉得他们必须保持良好的关系，或者他们必须保持朋友，或者他们必须对此鞠躬。

And I so admire the people in life that are like, "Yeah, that didn't work.

Done." Because I look at the time wasted-

完成了。”因为我看到浪费的时间-

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

and I think that in our desire to make everything kind of okay in the end-

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

we burn valuable life energy and incredibly valuable time.

我们燃烧宝贵的生命能量和极其宝贵的时间。

And so some people might hear no drama and think, well, you're going to lose a bunch of people.

And I will.

我会的。

I certainly will.

我当然会的。

Or they'll rise to the occasion or whatever you want to call it.

或者他们会挺身而出，或者随便你怎么称呼它。

But I have a full life of many people with whom I have zero drama and wonderful relationships.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So I'm full.

所以我吃饱了。

My dance card's full.

我的舞蹈卡满了。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But I'd rather, I feel so firm about this, given the peace that it's brought me-

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

that I realized like, yeah, I may never talk to that person again.

我意识到，是的，我可能再也不会和那个人说话了。

I might, I might not.

我可能会，也可能不会。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But at the first hint of drama, I'm done.

但一看到戏剧性的迹象，我就完了。

And I think it's because I forced so much suffering on myself for so long of trying to resolve these things that clearly wouldn't work, and I don't know, I feel immense freedom from it.

我认为这是因为我在很长一段时间里给自己施加了太多的痛苦，试图解决这些显然行不通的事情，我不知道，我从中感受到了巨大的自由。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But I think I hear this with other people like, "Oh yeah, but they're going to change," or, "He's going to stop drinking," or, not referring to me, I'm not a drinker, but there's a hard and fast-- I quit drinking.

但我想我听到其他人这样说，“哦，是的，但他们会改变，”或者，“他会停止喝酒，”或者，不是指我，我不是一个喝酒的人，但有一个艰难而快速的 - 我戒酒了。

Didn't have a problem with it, but I just was like-

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

I'm done with alcohol.

我已经喝完了酒。

Just like that, relationship's over.

就这样，关系结束了。

And they just cling to this thing that it's got to-- They just won't let go.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And what is that about?

那是关于什么的？

Why do we hold onto the thing that doesn't work, even if we know we're not going to stay with it?

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What is this obsession?

这种痴迷是什么？

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

It's interesting.

这很有趣。

So, I'm thinking about how when you say no drama, what does that actually mean?

And it's really important because when you look at why people who are most satisfied with their lives, what is it about their lives?

这真的很重要，因为当你了解为什么人们对自己的生活最满意时，他们的生活是什么？

They're surrounded by people that they feel good about.

他们周围都是让他们感觉良好的人。

Now, let me be clear about what that means.

现在，让我澄清一下这意味着什么。

So, we talk about this concept of idiot compassion versus wise compassion.

因此，我们讨论白痴同情心与明智同情心的概念。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Idiot compassion?

白痴同情心？

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Idiot compassion.

白痴的同情心。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love that phrase.

我喜欢这句话。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Idiot compassion-

白痴的同情心——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I don't even know what it means, and I love it already.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

So idiot compassion is what if you surround yourself with people who are only going to validate your experience.

所以，如果你周围的人只是想验证你的经历，那么愚蠢的同情心就会发生。

When you say no drama, that's not necessarily a great thing.

当你说没有戏剧性时，这不一定是一件好事。

So like for example, let's say that someone says to her friends like, "I don't understand why he broke up with me," or, "I don't understand why this keeps happening to me," and your friend's like, "No, you go girl.

举例来说，假设有人对她的朋友说，“我不明白他为什么要和我分手”，或者“我不明白为什么这种事总是发生在我身上”，而你的朋友会说，“不，你去吧，女孩。

He's wrong, you're right," whatever, or, "My partner's doing this," and we tend to kind of feel like our job as a friend is to support the position of our friends.

他错了，你是对的，”无论如何，或者，“我的伴侣正在这样做”，我们倾向于觉得作为朋友我们的工作就是支持我们朋友的立场。

That's idiot compassion.

这就是白痴的同情心。

Wise compassion is what you get in therapy, where we say, "What might be going on here?" It's kind of like if a fight breaks out in every bar you're going to, maybe it's you.

明智的同情心是你在治疗中得到的，我们会说，“这里可能发生了什么？”这有点像如果你去的每个酒吧都爆发打架，也许是你干的。

We don't say that to our friends in idiot compassion.

我们不会出于白痴的同情心对我们的朋友这么说。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Okay?

好吧？

So think about that.

所以想一想。

So is it that you want no drama, meaning you want your friends to kind of back up everything you're saying?

那么你是不是不想闹剧，也就是说你希望你的朋友支持你所说的一切？

You're not going to grow as a person.

作为一个人，你不会成长。

You're not going to hear what you need to hear.

你不会听到你需要听到的。

The friends you want to surround yourself with are people who will tell you the truth in a kind, respectful way, and that you're willing to hear it.

你希望身边的朋友会以友善、尊重的方式告诉你真相，并且你愿意听。

So some people think that it would be drama if their friends kind of called them on their bullshit, right?

所以有些人认为，如果他们的朋友骂他们胡说八道，那就太戏剧化了，对吧？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

That's not drama.

那不是戏剧。

So that's a healthy, communicative, open, honest relationship.

所以这是一种健康、沟通、开放、诚实的关系。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

I agree, by the way.

顺便说一下，我同意。

I think that my definition of drama is when challenging things are presented in a way that's not an effort to resolve.

我认为我对戏剧的定义是当具有挑战性的事情以一种不努力解决的方式呈现时。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What I'm talking about is evacuative expression.

我所说的是疏散表达。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I'm sort of chuckling on the inside, too, about this thing about friends.

对于朋友这件事，我内心也有些好笑。

I would say my group of friends is, they're amazing.

我想说我的一群朋友，他们非常棒。

I'm blessed with incredible friends and friendships.

我很幸运拥有令人难以置信的朋友和友谊。

I'm so blessed.

我真是太幸运了。

I only wish I had more time for all of them.

我只希望我有更多的时间陪伴他们所有人。

We're pretty hard on each other in terms of being very blunt, very like, "That was dumb." This may be more male specific kind of language.

我们对彼此非常严厉，非常直率，就像“那太愚蠢了”。这可能是男性特有的语言。

Like, "That was dumb."

就像，“那太愚蠢了。”

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Like, "Why'd you do that?

就像，“你为什么这么做？

That was super stupid." Or, "Yeah, don't be an idiot.

那真是太愚蠢了。”或者，“是的，别犯傻了。

Don't do it again." Or, "No, I totally disagree." That's a lot of the exchange in-

不要再这样做了。”或者，“不，我完全不同意。”这是很多交换——

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

my friend group.

我的朋友组。

I would say maybe it's just the culture I grew up in, in academia, very little validation.

我想说，也许这只是我成长的文化，在学术界，很少得到验证。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Validation isn't a big part of it.

验证并不是其中的重要部分。

But I am also surrounded by people that are very self-critical.

但我周围也有一些非常自我批评的人。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So it's sort of inherent to the way they work-

所以这是他们工作方式固有的——

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

in their work, in their relationships, in their life, in their fitness.

在他们的工作、人际关系、生活、健身中。

Like pretty much everyone's pretty get after it.

就像几乎每个人都在追求它一样。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right.

对。

What I'm talking about is when people say no drama, what they mean is, "Don't bring anything up." Right?

我想说的是，当人们说不要闹剧时，他们的意思是“不要提出任何事情”。正确的？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

"Don't challenge anything.

“不要挑战任何事情。

Don't bring anything to my attention that maybe needs to be brought to my attention because I could be better in this relationship."

不要让我注意任何可能需要引起我注意的事情，因为我可以在这段关系中做得更好。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

To me, I think what you're talking about is volatility, which is drama, right?

对我来说，我认为你所说的是波动性，这是戏剧性的，对吧？

Like, can you express the thing you want to express in a way that feels like an invitation or like it comes from a place of curiosity as opposed to blame?

比如，你能否以一种邀请的方式表达你想要表达的事情，或者感觉它来自好奇而不是责备？

So often people will come at the person and say, "You did this," as opposed to, "I was confused by what happened back there.

人们常常会走到那个人面前说：“你做了这件事”，而不是“我对那里发生的事情感到困惑。

What happened?

发生了什么事？

Why did you make that choice?" Or, "What happened between us here?

你为什么做出这样的选择？”或者，“我们之间发生了什么？

Can we talk about that?" So you're being curious about the other person's experience as opposed to blaming the other person and assuming their intentions or why they did something or something about their character.

我们可以谈谈这个吗？” So you're being curious about the other person's experience as opposed to blaming the other person and assuming their intentions or why they did something or something about their character.

So drama tends to be from all the assumptions.

所以戏剧往往来自于所有的假设。

Like, "I know that my truth is the right story." That's how you would come at that, right?

就像，“我知道我的故事是正确的。”你就是这样想的，对吧？

"And yours, you were wrong." And I think it's so interesting because people come to therapy with these faulty narratives.

“而你的，你错了。”我认为这很有趣，因为人们用这些错误的叙述来接受治疗。

We're all storytellers.

我们都是讲故事的人。

We all try to make sense of something, and we all believe that our story is the absolute accurate version of the story.

我们都试图理解某些事情，并且我们都相信我们的故事是故事的绝对准确版本。

And it's actually, it's so funny when you see couples, and they were part of the same experience, and they have wildly different versions, and then there's some part where the Venn diagram overlaps, and then finally they can see, oh, that person's not a bad person.

事实上，当你看到情侣时，这很有趣，他们是相同经历的一部分，他们有截然不同的版本，然后维恩图有一些重叠的部分，最后他们可以看到，哦，那个人不是坏人。

They were coming at it because in their story, they believed this.

他们之所以这么做是因为在他们的故事中，他们相信这一点。

And that's so important.

这非常重要。

So drama happens when assumptions are made.

因此，当做出假设时，戏剧就会发生。

People characterize the other person's story as inaccurate, their own story as accurate, and then there's no space for curiosity or connection.

人们认为对方的故事不准确，而自己的故事准确，这样就没有好奇心或联系的空间。

It's all rupture, no repair.

全部破裂，无法修复。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

As you're saying this, I realized what I mean by drama-

当你这么说的时候，我意识到我所说的戏剧是什么意思了——

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

because it's a very broad term.

因为这是一个非常广泛的术语。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I come from a background where my dad's from South America, my mom's from New York.

我的父亲来自南美，母亲来自纽约。

So, emotive expression is not what I'm referring to, right?

所以，情感表达不是我指的，对吗？

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

People being passionate about something or even angry about something, or even having a problem like, "Hey, that didn't feel good."

人们对某事充满热情，甚至对某事感到愤怒，甚至有诸如“嘿，这感觉不太好”之类的问题。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's not what I'm referring to.

我指的不是这个。

I realized, as you were saying it, what it is that gets me.

正如你所说，我意识到是什么让我着迷。

It's when, that I put under the category-

就在那时，我将其归入类别-

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

of drama, for which I have zero tolerance for, unless you can convince me otherwise, is when people dynamite the mine on the way out.

戏剧性的事情，我对此是零容忍的，除非你能说服我，否则，就是人们在出去的时候炸毁地雷。

It's-

这是——

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

"I'm telling you how much this sucks.

“我告诉你这有多糟糕。

This is how I feel," or, "This is what you did," and then I'm inaccessible.

这就是我的感受”，或者“这就是你所做的”，然后我就无法接近了。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And-

还有——

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

so they're not really interested.

所以他们并不真正感兴趣。

It's this evacuative expression-

就是这个疏散的表情——

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

or projection-

或投影-

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

as you said.

正如你所说。

That's what I'm defining as drama.

这就是我对戏剧的定义。

That, to me, is far and away different than saying, "Hey, listen, this sucked.

对我来说，这与说“嘿，听着，这很糟糕。

Can you think about this?

你能考虑一下吗？

Can we talk about this?

我们可以谈谈这个吗？

Andrew, you screwed up." Like, "Okay, great.

安德鲁，你搞砸了。”就像，“好吧，太好了。

Let's figure it out."

我们来想办法吧。”

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

But it's this, I'm rolling a grenade in the door, and I'm out of here.

但就是这样，我在门上扔了一颗手榴弹，然后我就离开了这里。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That, to me, is the one that I'm like, I'm too old for that shit.

对我来说，这就是我喜欢的人，我已经太老了，不能再做这种事了。

Yeah.

是的。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

The silent treatment is actually incredibly aggressive and hostile.

沉默的对待实际上是令人难以置信的攻击性和敌意。

People think that the loud one is the problem in the relationship.

人们认为大声的声音是关系中的问题。

Sometimes the silent one-

有时沉默的人——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

毫米

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

...

is the one who's the problem.

就是有问题的人。

Is the person who smiles through everything and doesn't really say anything, but they're being so passive-aggressive.

是那种对一切都微笑着，什么也没说的人，但他们却表现得如此消极攻击。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Or the person who then, as you said, detonates the bomb and then goes silent, and that's their punishment.

或者像你说的那样，引爆炸弹然后沉默的人，这就是他们的惩罚。

They're punishing you by not talking to you for a day or two or three.

他们会一两天或三天不和你说话，以此来惩罚你。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

That's incredibly hostile.

这真是令人难以置信的敌意。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

And the other way that people do that is you bring up something in a nice way to someone, and here's how they create drama, and that they're shutting something down.

人们这样做的另一种方式是，你以一种友好的方式向某人提出一些事情，这就是他们如何制造戏剧性，然后他们关闭一些事情。

They're shutting down any possibility of communication, is every time you bring up something to them, they cry.

他们正在关闭任何沟通的可能性，每次你向他们提起某些事情时，他们都会哭泣。

Now, people don't like it when I say this.

现在，人们不喜欢我这么说。

They say, as a therapist, they should be able to feel sad or hurt when someone brings up something, and they should be able to cry.

他们说，作为治疗师，当有人提起某事时，他们应该能够感到悲伤或受伤，并且应该能够哭泣。

And I'm saying, no, sometimes crying is a manipulation.

我想说的是，不，有时候哭泣是一种操纵。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Hmm.

嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

You can manipulate someone.

你可以操纵某人。

So I'll see a couple, and one person will bring up something, let's say, like, "When you do this," or, "This hurts me," or, "I don't like this," or, "I need more help with this," and the person cries.

Like, "You're hurting my feelings.

就像，“你伤害了我的感情。

This is..." As opposed to saying, this person is trying to communicate with you.

这是......”而不是说，这个人正在尝试与你沟通。

You're going to have feelings about it, but there's a manipulative way in which people will cry every time or many times, and it shuts down any possibility of communication.

And so we have to say, "What are you doing here?" Every time you cry, then the other person feels like, well, I can't bring this up because I'm hurting my partner, and now we can never have communication because if I bring something up, I'm in a catch-22.

所以我们必须说：“你在这里做什么？” Every time you cry, then the other person feels like, well, I can't bring this up because I'm hurting my partner, and now we can never have communication because if I bring something up, I'm in a catch-22.

If I don't bring it up, we have a problem.

如果我不提出来，我们就有问题了。

If I bring it up, you're going to say I'm hurting your feelings, and then I have to stop, so I have to be extra careful, and I don't know.

如果我提出来，你会说我伤害了你的感情，然后我必须停下来，所以我必须格外小心，我不知道。

There's no way to move forward here.

这里已经没有办法继续前进了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So what do you do in that instance?

那么在这种情况下你会做什么呢？

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

We have to talk about the functionality of the crying.

我们必须谈谈哭泣的功能。

Why is it so hard for you to hear something that your partner is saying?

为什么你很难听到伴侣说的话？

Do you feel blamed?

你觉得受到责备吗？

Do you feel shame?

你感到羞耻吗？

Shame is something that we avoid at all costs, right?

羞耻感是我们不惜一切代价避免的，对吗？

No one wants to feel that.

没有人愿意感受到这种感觉。

Do you feel like this person is making a global statement when they're not, that they're saying you're a bad person, as opposed to what you did here was bad?

So there's a difference between who you are and what you did.

所以你是谁和你做了什么是有区别的。

And often we paint with a big brush when we're trying to communicate with our partners.

当我们试图与合作伙伴沟通时，我们常常会用大画笔进行绘画。

Like, you're bad, as opposed to that thing that you did, that was not good.

就像，你很坏，与你所做的那件事相反，那件事不好。

That thing you did was bad, but you inherently are not a bad person.

你做的事情虽然不好，但你本质上并不是一个坏人。

And we tend to tell our partners in all kinds of ways that they're bad people when they do something that displeases us.

当我们的伴侣做了令我们不高兴的事情时，我们倾向于以各种方式告诉他们，他们是坏人。

We have to be really careful about separating what they did from who they are, and we need to do that with ourselves.

我们必须非常小心地将他们的所作所为与他们的身份分开，而且我们自己也需要这样做。

So often we do something, and then we feel so much shame around what we did, and we say, "Oh, I'm a terrible person," as opposed to, "I did something that doesn't align with who I want to be.

It doesn't align with actually who I am." And that's good that you feel bad about it, because if we didn't have guilt, right?

这与我的实际身份不相符。”你对此感到难过是件好事，因为如果我们没有内疚，对吗？

So guilt is a good, positive feeling.

所以内疚是一种好的、积极的感觉。

Shame, nothing comes from shame.

羞耻，没有任何东西来自羞耻。

We just tend to sort of retreat from shame.

我们只是倾向于逃避羞耻感。

Guilt is great.

罪孽是巨大的。

Guilt is saying you're not a sociopath.

内疚是说你不是一个反社会者。

Guilt is saying, "What I did did not align with the person that I am.

内疚是说：“我所做的与我本身不符。

So I am a good person.

所以我是一个好人。

I did something that felt not aligned with that, and so I need to be aware that it's good that I feel guilt.

我做了一些感觉与此不一致的事情，所以我需要意识到我感到内疚是件好事。

If I didn't feel guilt, that would say something about my character.

如果我不感到内疚，那就说明了我的性格。

But the fact that I do feel guilt means that I'm willing to look at myself, and I'm willing to do something different, and I'm willing to make a change."

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And here I'm making a bunch of assumptions.

在这里我做了很多假设。

I wonder if the crying is pre-programmed in some people because it's what was able to elicit sympathy and protect them.

我想知道哭泣是否是某些人的预设程序，因为它能够引起同情并保护他们。

Like if they didn't do it, that they'd get hit, or if they didn't do it, the bombardment would continue.

就像如果他们不这样做，他们就会被击中，或者如果他们不这样做，轰炸就会继续。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah, absolutely.

是的，绝对是。

Everything we do is for self-preservation, and we're just not aware of it.

我们所做的一切都是为了自我保护，只是我们没有意识到而已。

We want to avoid pain at all costs.

我们希望不惜一切代价避免痛苦。

And so even though a lot of what we do to avoid pain creates more pain, but that's not our intent.

因此，尽管我们为避免痛苦所做的很多事情会造成更多的痛苦，但这并不是我们的意图。

So anything that, when people-- There's somebody that I write about in my book who comes off as very unlikable at the beginning of the book, and people say, "Why did you even take him into your practice?

Why did you work with him?

你为什么和他一起工作？

Why did you treat him?" And when they get to the end of the book, not to spoil everything, but he's probably the person they love the best.

你为什么要这样对待他？”当他们读到书的结尾时，并不是要剧透一切，但他可能是他们最爱的人。

And it's because I'm looking at that person's actions as they're coming from a place of he's protecting himself from pain.

这是因为我正在观察那个人的行为，因为他们来自他正在保护自己免受痛苦的地方。

So he's an asshole to everybody because it doesn't let anybody in.

所以他对每个人来说都是个混蛋，因为它不让任何人进来。

It doesn't let him have the possibility of being hurt again because he was terribly hurt.

这不让他有再次受伤的可能，因为他伤得很重。

And so, we say hurt people hurt people.

所以，我们说伤害人伤害人。

What are they doing?

他们在做什么？

They're protecting themselves from more pain because if they let themselves be vulnerable, they're exposed to the possibility of pain, and they don't want that.

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Are there some people for whom therapy just ain't going to help?

是否有一些人的治疗根本没有帮助？

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yes.

是的。

People who are not willing to self-reflect.

不愿意自我反省的人。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

And it's hard, right?

这很难，对吧？

I think a lot of people come to therapy, and they say, "I want something to change," but what they want to change is something else or someone else.

And you, again, can influence that.

而你，同样可以影响这一点。

You can't change another person.

你无法改变另一个人。

Before people come to couples therapy with me, I ask them to each separately come up with the one thing that they want to work on about themselves.

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

So it's not what do you want to change in your partner, it's if you were going to be the best possible version of yourself in a relationship, what is the one thing that you really want to work on in our couples work together?

"Well, no, I want to work on things, but I really need the other person..." No, wait a minute.

“嗯，不，我想做一些事情，但我真的需要另一个人……”不，等一下。

I won't even see them in the room until they each have a very clear sense of, "This is the thing that I want to work on." Now, that might change over time, depending on what we uncover, but they need to come in with a goal.

我什至不会在房间里看到他们，直到他们每个人都有一个非常清晰的感觉：“这就是我想要做的事情。”现在，这可能会随着时间的推移而改变，具体取决于我们发现的内容，但他们需要带着目标而来。

We all know that there's something about ourselves that we could do better at in a relationship.

我们都知道，我们自己在某些方面可以在人际关系中做得更好。

And so what is that thing?

那么那东西是什么？

What do you want to work on?

你想从事什么工作？

And if the other person happens to change, great.

如果对方碰巧发生了改变，那就太好了。

If they don't, that's good information, too.

如果他们不这样做，这也是一个很好的信息。

But you're not coming in because you think the other person's going to change.

但你加入并不是因为你认为对方会改变。

You're coming in to grow on your own, and you're growing in the context of this relationship, but you are doing some personal growth in the couples.

I happen to think couples therapy moves us along faster individually than individual therapy does.

我碰巧认为夫妻治疗比个体治疗更能让我们个人进步得更快。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Interesting.

有趣。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Because in individual therapy, you're telling a story.

因为在个体治疗中，你是在讲一个故事。

It's your perspective.

这是你的观点。

I have to, as the therapist, intuit what else might be going on out there.

作为治疗师，我必须凭直觉了解那里可能发生的其他事情。

In couples therapy, I see how this person reacts with other people.

在夫妻治疗中，我观察这个人与其他人的反应。

Now, I can see that in the therapeutic relationship individually.

现在，我可以在单独的治疗关系中看到这一点。

This is a microcosm of how they interact out there.

这是他们如何互动的缩影。

But I'm different from the people they interact with out there because of the nature of the therapeutic relationship.

但由于治疗关系的性质，我与他们接触的人不同。

So there will be what we call transference, where they transfer some of their feelings about other people into the relationship with the therapist, and that gives me a really good idea of how they interact out there.

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Could you give me an example of transference-

你能给我举一个移情的例子吗？

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

positive and negative?

积极和消极？

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

So, let's say that I say something, and it turns out that they felt criticized.

那么，假设我说了一些话，结果他们感到受到批评。

Well, it could be that I said something in a critical way, maybe.

嗯，也许我以批评的方式说了一些话。

Entirely possible.

完全有可能。

It could be that they have kind of transferred feelings about a parent onto me, if I happen to be the age of their parent, or similar to, or if there's enough of an age difference between us.

And they heard something that was meant to be compassionate, but it was also true and something they need to look at, but they heard it as criticism.

Sometimes you transfer, there's romantic transference.

有时你会转移，这是浪漫的转移。

People get romantically attached to their therapist, and you have to be able to talk about that.

人们会对他们的治疗师产生浪漫的依恋，而你必须能够谈论这一点。

Obviously, you have very clear boundaries.

显然，你们有非常明确的界限。

Nothing can ever happen, all that.

一切都不会发生。

But it's okay to bring that up.

但提出这个问题也没关系。

People think I'm not allowed to say that, "I have these feelings." And then we deal with them, and we see how we can talk through that.

人们认为我不可以说“我有这些感受”。然后我们处理它们，看看如何解决这个问题。

And it's generally not that the person wants to get with you.

一般来说，这个人并不是想和你在一起。

It's really more about what it means to feel romantically loved-

这实际上更多的是感受到浪漫的爱意味着什么——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

毫米

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

...

or what it means to be loved in general, and that they put a romantic veneer over that.

或者说被爱意味着什么，他们给它披上了浪漫的外衣。

So, love is so complicated, and it's so multifaceted.

所以说，爱情是多么的复杂，也是多么的多面。

So there's that kind of transference that happens.

所以就会发生这种转移。

But I think with couples, when I say you need to be able to work on something that if you were to be the best possible version of yourself in this relationship, what would you want to work on?

但我认为对于夫妻来说，当我说你需要能够做一些事情时，如果你想在这段关系中成为最好的自己，你会想做什么？

It might be, "I need to self-regulate better." It might be, "I need to be less needy of the other." In other words, a lot of people think that their partner needs to be everything.

可能是，“我需要更好地自我调节。”可能是，“我需要减少对他人的需要。”换句话说，很多人认为他们的伴侣需要成为一切。

"You need to telepathically read my mind, and if you don't, you don't care.

“你需要通过心灵感应读懂我的想法，如果你不这样做，你也不在乎。

You need to intuit what I wanted to do for my birthday.

你需要凭直觉知道我想为我的生日做什么。

And if you didn't, then you don't really know me." And these sound like kind of extreme, almost immature examples, but these are the kinds of things that people get caught up in.

如果你不这样做，那么你就不是真正了解我。”这些听起来有点极端，几乎不成熟的例子，但这些都是人们陷入其中的事情。

And I'm giving the highest level of that, but they can be much more nuanced and much deeper.

我给出的是最高水平的内容，但它们可以更细致、更深入。

And so, I think that people, you asked who cannot be helped, people who are not willing to self-reflect and look at themselves.

所以，我认为那些人，你问谁是无能为力的，那些不愿意自我反省和审视自己的人。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love that statement you made, which is if people are coming to therapy, they need to ask about the change they want to make in themselves.

我喜欢你所说的，那就是如果人们来接受治疗，他们需要询问他们想要对自己做出的改变。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

And what their role is and what is not going the way they want in their lives.

他们的角色是什么，以及生活中哪些事情没有按照他们想要的方式发展。

And this isn't about blaming them for the problem at all.

这根本不是为了把问题归咎于他们。

It's about saying there might be some truly difficult situations out there.

这是说外面可能存在一些真正困难的情况。

You might have a parent with mental health issues, and what are you going to do about that?

您的父母可能有心理健康问题，您会采取什么措施？

You probably aren't going to change the fact that they have mental health issues.

你可能不会改变他们有心理健康问题的事实。

But your reaction can change.

但你的反应可能会改变。

So you can do something different.

所以你可以做一些不同的事情。

We can talk about what that might look like.

我们可以讨论那可能是什么样子。

You can not engage in that dance.

你不能参加那种舞蹈。

You can set boundaries.

您可以设定界限。

There are different ways to make choices about that.

有不同的方法可以对此做出选择。

There are sort of societal things that we can't change, but what can you do so that you feel like you have agency in the world?

有些社会事物是我们无法改变的，但你能做什么才能让你觉得你在这个世界上有代理权呢？

Because we all have agency to some degree.

因为我们都在某种程度上拥有代理权。

So where do we find that agency as opposed to going into this helpless, I'm the victim position?

那么，我们在哪里可以找到该机构，而不是陷入这种无助的、我是受害者的境地呢？

And people don't like to hear that.

人们不喜欢听到这个。

They say, "What kind of therapist are you, calling people victims?" I'm not saying people are victims.

他们说：“你算什么类型的治疗师，竟然称人们为受害者？”我并不是说人们是受害者。

I'm saying people have the mindset that they don't have agency, and then they become victims.

我是说人们有一种心态，认为他们没有代理权，然后他们就成为受害者。

But when you realize that you have agency, you realize, well, there are really difficult people, things, circumstances in the world, but I get to choose how to respond to them.

但当你意识到你有代理权时，你就会意识到，世界上确实有困难的人、事、环境，但我可以选择如何回应它们。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Going back to this thing about texting, how many of the challenges that people present to you in your office these days ...

回到关于发短信的问题，这些天人们在你的办公室向你提出了多少挑战......

incorporates or starts with, "Yeah, so I got this text" versus, "Somebody came to me or called me, and we had a hard interaction, or we had a conversation, or something happened at work." How much of it is in the digital world nowadays?

包含或开头为“是的，所以我收到了这条短信”与“有人来找我或打电话给我，我们进行了一次艰难的互动，或者我们进行了交谈，或者在工作中发生了一些事情。”如今，数字世界中有多少是这样的？

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

So here's what's interesting about texting, is so many times people will come in and they'll say, "We had this conversation on text." And I'll say, "Can you show me the conversation?" Which people think, why would you do that?

所以这就是发短信的有趣之处，很多时候人们进来后会说，“我们是通过短信进行对话的。”我会说：“你能给我看看这段对话吗？”人们认为，你为什么要这样做？

Why wouldn't you want to hear the narrative from that person?

为什么你不想听那个人的叙述？

Well, I just heard the narrative, but I want to see what was actually said, because they're like, "Well, I don't really know," or, "Let me read you what they said." But I want to see what both parts of that were.

嗯，我刚刚听到了叙述，但我想看看实际上说了什么，因为他们会说，“嗯，我真的不知道”，或者“让我读一下他们说的话。”但我想看看这两个部分是什么。

And then the person can see, oh, here's how I contributed to that, or here's a choice that I made in that moment.

然后这个人就可以看到，哦，这就是我为此做出的贡献，或者这是我在那一刻做出的选择。

Again, I prefer that these conversations that people have are face-to-face conversations when they're about something in the relationship.

再说一次，我更喜欢人们就关系中的某些事情进行面对面的对话。

Text is great for your dailiness of, "Hey, look what I had for lunch," or, "How you doing?" Or, "I love you," or whatever, right?

文字非常适合您的日常生活，“嘿，看看我午餐吃了什么”，或者“你好吗？”或者“我爱你”之类的，对吧？

Or, "Can you pick up the kid?" But when you're having some kind of, again, rupture or conflict between you, that's not a text conversation, but many people will do that on text.

或者，“你能去接孩子吗？”但是，当你们之间再次出现某种破裂或冲突时，这不是短信对话，但很多人会通过短信进行对话。

And then now we have a record.

现在我们有了记录。

So it's not just like what my client is saying to me, it's like this is how the conversation actually went down.

所以这不仅仅是我的客户对我说的话，而且这就是谈话的实际情况。

We have a transcript of it, and it's really helpful for people to be able to look at that transcript.

我们有一份文字记录，人们能够查看该文字记录确实很有帮助。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I agree.

我同意。

At the same time, I feel like breakups are much harder than they used to be because you can block someone on social media, but then the block itself becomes this-

与此同时，我觉得分手比以前更难了，因为你可以在社交媒体上屏蔽某人，但屏蔽本身就变成了这样——

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

A symbol

一个符号

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

thing.

事。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You can mute people.

您可以将其他人静音。

You can put your phone away, but unless you block their number, they can send you things.

你可以把手机收起来，但除非你屏蔽他们的号码，否则他们可以给你发东西。

You can go back and read texts if you're-

您可以返回并阅读文本，如果您-

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

an obsessive person.

一个有强迫症的人。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There are just so many venues for, or avenues, excuse me, for people to access our psyche when we're trying to move on.

对不起，当我们试图继续前进时，有太多的场所或途径可以让人们接触我们的心灵。

And in the old days, kids, you had a phone with an answering machine.

在过去，孩子们，你有一部带有答录机的电话。

You broke up.

你们分手了。

It sucked.

太糟糕了。

You looked at the photos.

你看了照片。

You put the photos in a box, or you burned them, and you put the box in a shelf, and then when you got into a new relationship, you either hid the box or you destroyed the box.

你把照片放在盒子里，或者烧掉它们，然后把盒子放在架子上，然后当你进入新的关系时，你要么把盒子藏起来，要么毁掉盒子。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And you moved on.

然后你继续前进。

And people's phone numbers changed, and it was so much easier.

人们的电话号码也变了，事情变得容易多了。

I noticed that one tended to just remember more good stuff because there wasn't other stuff coming in.

我注意到人们往往会记住更多好东西，因为没有其他东西进来。

The bad stuff tended to dissipate, or maybe it didn't.

不好的事情往往会消散，或者也许不会。

It was just so much easier.

事情变得简单多了。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You weren't being infiltrated by the past.

你并没有被过去渗透。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And because of the nature of electronic stuff, I just feel like it's the past trying to hold us back.

由于电子产品的本质，我只是觉得过去试图阻止我们前进。

And this is on both sides.

这是双方的。

It doesn't matter if the breakup was amicable, then you long for the person now and again, or the breakup was rough, and then you relive ele- There's so many variants on this that, I don't know, it just feels like breaking up's already one of the hardest things.

不管分手是友好的，然后你时不时地渴望这个人，还是分手很艰难，然后你重温电子-这有很多变体，我不知道，只是感觉分手已经是最困难的事情之一。

People, I think, don't acknowledge just how hard breakups are.

我认为，人们并没有意识到分手有多么困难。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right.

对。

They don't, and I think there's this hierarchy of pain that people have about certain things like, "Well, you only dated for this amount of time.

他们没有，我认为人们对某些事情有这样的痛苦等级，比如，“好吧，你只约会了这么长时间。

How can it be that painful this amount of time after the breakup?" There's this hierarchy.

分手后这段时间怎么这么痛苦？”有这样的层次结构。

But if it was a divorce, then people understand why a year later you're still dealing with it.

但如果是离婚，人们就会明白为什么一年后你还在处理这件事。

Or if you were only married for 5 years versus married for 20 years.

或者，如果您只结婚 5 年，而不是结婚 20 年。

There's some hierarchy of pain that we have around things.

我们对事物的痛苦有一定的等级制度。

Like, it was a miscarriage, but your child, your 8-year-old, didn't die.

就像，这是一次流产，但你的孩子，你 8 岁的孩子，并没有死。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Ooh, geez, sorry.

哦，天哪，抱歉。

Do people say that kind of thing?

人们会说这样的话吗？

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

No, no, no.

不，不，不。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

All right.

好吧。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

They don't say it, but that's how they treat people.

他们嘴上不说，但他们就是这样对待人的。

It's like-

这就像——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I see

我明白了

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

...

you had a miscarriage, what they say is, "Oh, it's okay.

如果你流产了，他们会说：“哦，没关系。

You'll get pregnant again." If your child dies, they're not like, "It's okay.

你会再次怀孕的。”如果你的孩子死了，他们不会说：“没关系。

You'll have another child." Right?

你还会有另一个孩子。”正确的？

But it feels to the person who had a miscarriage that they lost their child.

但对于流产的人来说，他们感觉自己失去了孩子。

It's very, very painful.

这是非常非常痛苦的。

But listen to how we talk to people who have these experiences, that we tend to think that some experiences are sort of higher on the hierarchy of pain than others are.

但听听我们如何与有这些经历的人交谈，我们倾向于认为某些经历在痛苦的等级上比其他经历更高。

And so we think a breakup is not as bad as-- Like a breakup in a non-marriage or a short marriage is not as hard as a breakup with a long marriage or whatever the hierarchy is.

所以我们认为分手并不那么糟糕——就像非婚姻或短暂婚姻的分手并不像长期婚姻或任何等级制度的分手那么困难。

Or even someone who, it's like, well...

或者甚至是某个人，就像，嗯......

And this is the reason that people don't actually get help for things, because they think, "Well, it's just this.

这就是人们实际上没有得到帮助的原因，因为他们认为，“好吧，就是这样。

It's not really that bad." Or, "I'm feeling kind of sad," or, "I can't sleep," or, "I'm having trouble in this relationship, but it's not that bad because I have a roof over my head and food on the table, so I don't need to go get help." But let's say you fall, and you clearly have broken your wrist.

情况其实并没有那么糟糕。”或者，“我感到有点悲伤”，或者，“我睡不着”，或者，“我在这段关系中遇到了麻烦，但这并没有那么糟糕，因为我有屋顶，桌子上有食物，所以我不需要去寻求帮助。”但假设你摔倒了，而且手腕明显骨折了。

You're not going to sit there and go, "I don't need to do anything about that because I don't have stage four cancer." You're going to be like, "I'm going because I need to get my wrist repaired." So we treat physical health and mental health as two separate entities, when of course, the mind and the body are all intertwined.

你不会坐在那里说：“我不需要对此做任何事情，因为我没有患第四期癌症。”你会说，“我要去是因为我需要修复手腕。”因此，我们将身体健康和心理健康视为两个独立的实体，当然，思想和身体都是交织在一起的。

And I think that with breakups, it's the same thing.

我认为分手也是一样的。

It's like people think, well, it's not that big of a deal after the first X amount of time.

就像人们认为的那样，在最初的 X 时间之后，这没什么大不了的。

And breakups can really mark you, depending on how they went down.

分手确实会给你留下深刻的印象，具体取决于分手的方式。

Like if it was really volatile, if it was one of these things where you got no sense of if you were cheated on, if you didn't understand why the breakup happened, like it was very surprising to you.

就像如果它真的很不稳定，如果它是其中之一，如果你不知道自己是否被欺骗，如果你不明白为什么分手会发生，就像这对你来说非常惊讶一样。

All those things.

所有这些事情。

It can really be a different kind of breakup than a breakup where A person, it might be very painful, but you understand why the breakup is happening.

这确实是一种与一个人的分手不同的分手，它可能会非常痛苦，但你明白为什么会发生分手。

It doesn't mean you don't feel the loss, but there's something different about the quality of the breakup.

这并不意味着你不会感到失落，但分手的质量有些不同。

And so then people tell stories about the breakup because they didn't get the real story.

于是人们就讲述分手的故事，因为他们不了解真实的故事。

So the story now becomes like you don't really understand why the person's breaking up with you, because they didn't communicate during the relationship that maybe they were unhappy.

所以现在的故事就变得好像你真的不明白为什么这个人要和你分手，因为他们在恋爱期间没有沟通，也许他们不开心。

And now you watch them on social media, so you're watching a story and you have this whole story in your mind of, "Look at them, they're on this vacation." Or they're not even with another person.

现在你在社交媒体上观看他们，所以你正在观看一个故事，你的脑海中浮现出整个故事，“看看他们，他们正在度假。”或者他们甚至没有和另一个人在一起。

They're just like, "Look, they look so happy." But it's social media, of course, they look happy.

他们就像，“看，他们看起来很高兴。”当然，这是社交媒体，他们看起来很高兴。

People are not posting on social media of, "I'm so sad about my breakup," generally.

一般来说，人们不会在社交媒体上发布“我对分手感到非常难过”之类的内容。

There's a whole sort of subculture of people who do that, but that's a different thing.

这样做的人有一种亚文化，但那是另一回事。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Very generational.

非常有世代相传。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

But in general, you want to move forward.

但总的来说，你想继续前进。

And by the way, about grief, it's not like moving on because we're sort of shaped by every experience that we have.

顺便说一句，关于悲伤，这并不像继续前进，因为我们的每一次经历都会塑造我们。

But it's about moving forward.

但这是为了前进。

So people always say about grief, "You need to move on." No, you need to move forward.

所以人们总是在谈到悲伤时说：“你需要继续前进。”不，你需要继续前进。

Let's just talk about that.

我们就谈谈这个吧。

So let's say you have to move forward.

所以假设你必须前进。

It's very hard to move forward when you're watching the other person's life.

当你看着别人的生活时，你很难继续前进。

You're not moving forward at all.

你根本没有前进。

They're moving forward, maybe.

也许他们正在前进。

You don't really know.

你真的不知道。

But why are you spending so much time watching someone else move forward?

但为什么你要花这么多时间看着别人前进呢？

Can we focus on how you might move forward, whatever that might look like?

我们能否专注于您将如何前进，无论是什么样子？

But it's really hard when you have this split screen of their life is happening and your life is happening.

但当你分屏显示他们的生活和你的生活时，这真的很难。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I definitely want to talk about grief.

我绝对想谈谈悲伤。

Before we do that, I'd like to double-click into this breakup thing.

在我们这样做之前，我想双击进入这个分手的事情。

In my observation and experience, one of the hardest things about breakups is this idea that we want to somehow come to a common narrative.

根据我的观察和经验，分手时最困难的事情之一就是我们希望以某种方式达成共同的叙述。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And there seems to be a lot of desire to understand where the other person's experience of what happened.

并且似乎非常渴望了解对方对所发生的事情的经历。

I don't think it's intentional, but I think people can be somewhat destructive in a breakup by changing this notion like it was all an illusion or something.

我不认为这是故意的，但我认为人们在分手时可能会通过改变这种观念来造成一定程度的破坏，就像这一切都是幻觉或其他什么一样。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I guess I've had enough relationships and breakups to realize that there's love that continues.

我想我已经经历了足够多的恋爱和分手，意识到还有爱在继续。

There's things that you thought were love that weren't.

有些东西你以为是爱，但其实不是。

There's love that doesn't continue, and there are all sorts of shapes and forms of this stuff.

有些爱不会持续下去，而且这种东西有各种各样的形状和形式。

But that good, well-meaning people that take divergent paths, I've learned it doesn't mean anything else sometimes.

但那些善良、善意的人走不同的道路，我知道有时这并不意味着什么。

It literally just means that.

它的字面意思就是这个意思。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That there isn't a need to rewrite the script like it wasn't what I thought.

不需要重写剧本，就像它不是我想的那样。

It actually was what I thought, and then it was something different, or just circumstances changed or things changed.

其实我是这么想的，然后情况就不同了，或者只是环境改变了或者事情改变了。

I'm not trying to make light of this.

我并不是想轻视这一点。

I would argue I'm probably one of the least skilled people at breakups, although I've gotten "better at it." It's always super painful.

我认为我可能是分手方面最不熟练的人之一，尽管我已经“做得更好了”。总是超级痛苦。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I've never had a breakup that didn't really hurt.

我从来没有经历过一次没有真正伤害过的分手。

It doesn't matter if I left or they left.

我离开还是他们离开并不重要。

That just didn't really hurt.

那并没有真正伤害。

And I think it's this idea of like, and this is why I think it's an interesting perhaps segue to grief, is that it's almost like as something ends, we look back and we evaluate the story-

我认为这就是类似的想法，这就是为什么我认为这是一个有趣的也许是悲伤的延续，因为它几乎就像某事结束时，我们回顾并评估这个故事-

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

and try and figure out, was that real?

并尝试弄清楚，这是真的吗？

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Was it not real?

难道不是真的吗？

How could that have been real?

那怎么可能是真的？

And then we're here.

然后我们就到了。

There was all this hope and expectation, and yeah, I think about this a lot.

充满了希望和期待，是的，我对此思考了很多。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

So sometimes what the loss is about isn't so much about the other person.

所以有时候，损失的原因并不在于其他人。

It's about the loss of what it feels like to be in a primary relationship.

这是关于失去主要关系的感觉。

So you're losing the primary relationship, and then it happens to be with this specific person.

所以你正在失去主要的关系，然后它恰好是与这个特定的人。

And so there were good qualities about that specific person and qualities that maybe weren't right for you, but what you're losing is the dailiness.

因此，那个特定的人有一些好的品质，也有一些品质可能不适合你，但你失去的是日常生活。

So, so much of what feels good about being in a primary relationship is you get to tell the person the minutiae of your day.

所以，在一段主要关系中感觉良好的地方就是你可以告诉对方你一天中的细节。

The little things.

小事。

The shared history and the shared experiences that become the shorthand and the inside jokes, and the routine of your flight landed.

共同的历史和共同的经历成为速记和内部笑话，以及您的航班降落的例行公事。

Who are you going to text?

你要给谁发短信？

Oh, text your partner.

哦，给你的伴侣发短信。

Just the built-in infrastructure of being in a primary relationship and someone who knows what kind of pizza you like, and all those little things that come from going through daily life together.

只是建立主要关系的内置基础设施，有人知道你喜欢哪种披萨，以及所有这些来自一起日常生活的小事情。

And you know all the things about their families, and you know all the things about the people in their lives and the people they're talking about, like this friend and this boss and whatever, their coworkers.

你知道关于他们家庭的所有事情，你知道关于他们生活中的人和他们正在谈论的人的所有事情，比如这个朋友和这个老板以及其他什么，他们的同事。

So it's this whole world that's been co-created, and then all of a sudden when that person isn't there anymore, the dailiness of your life changes drastically.

因此，整个世界都是共同创造的，然后突然间，当那个人不再存在时，你的日常生活就会发生巨大的变化。

You're not waking up with that person.

你不会和那个人一起醒来。

You're not eating meals with that person.

你没有和那个人一起吃饭。

You're not talking about what's for dinner with that person.

你不是在和那个人谈论晚餐吃什么。

You're wondering how that thing with their sister worked out.

你想知道他们姐姐的事情是如何解决的。

But you don't know now because, right?

但你现在不知道，因为，对吧？

And you're losing the side kind of shared people too.

而且你也会失去一些共同的人。

You might have liked that person's family a lot.

你可能非常喜欢那个人的家人。

Sometimes you stay in touch with the family, but sometimes you don't.

有时您会与家人保持联系，但有时则不然。

So your world changes so much in the day-to-day.

所以你的世界每天都在发生很大的变化。

You're not just losing that person.

你不只是失去那个人。

You're losing an entire world that you were living in.

你正在失去你所生活的整个世界。

And now your world looks so different, and you have nothing to replace it with yet.

现在你的世界看起来如此不同，而且你还没有任何东西可以取代它。

So it doesn't mean you have to replace it with another partner.

因此，这并不意味着您必须更换为其他合作伙伴。

You might replace it with things in your own life.

你可以用你自己生活中的东西来代替它。

But breakups tend to happen.

但分手往往会发生。

Maybe you saw the breakup coming, but you're not really imagining what it will be like after until you're in it.

也许你预见到了分手的到来，但在你真正陷入其中之前，你并没有真正想象分手后会是什么样子。

And you can't really understand what it's like until you're in that breakup phase.

除非你处于分手阶段，否则你无法真正理解它是什么样的。

So I think that makes it so hard because you're losing ...

所以我认为这让事情变得如此困难，因为你正在失败......

a lifestyle, right?

一种生活方式，对吗？

Like the dailiness of your life.

就像你的日常生活一样。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

And it's like when you're in a relationship, you're in the present, but you're also in the future.

就像当你处于一段关系中时，你处于现在，但你也处于未来。

So you imagined that the present was going to be the future.

所以你想象现在将是未来。

And now, mother of all plot twists, the future was just taken away along with the present.

而现在，最曲折的情节是，未来和现在一起被夺走了。

So it's not just you're losing the day-to-day, you're losing what you imagined next year was going to be like, and five years were going to be like.

所以，你不仅失去了日常生活，也失去了你想象的明年、五年的样子。

So it's a huge thing.

所以这是一件大事。

It's so interesting because in my most recent book, it starts with my breakup, and that's how I end up in therapy, and my whole thing is the idiot compassion, what we were talking about with my friends, of he's a jerk, and he's terrible, and you dodged a bullet.

这很有趣，因为在我最近的书中，它从我的分手开始，这就是我最终接受治疗的方式，我的整个事情就是白痴同情心，我们和我的朋友们谈论的，他是个混蛋，他很糟糕，而你躲过了子弹。

And my therapist, who I thought was going to validate this position, didn't for the better.

我以为我的治疗师会证实这个立场，但他的情况并没有好转。

And so by the end of the book, people even write in now, they're like, "Oh, I can't believe," I call him boyfriend in the book, "I can't believe he did that." And I'm like, "No, I was trying to say he's a good guy." You have to understand that I was seeing this through the lens of the breakup, and then over time, I see that I was responsible for this, too.

所以到了书的结尾，人们甚至现在写信说，“哦，我不敢相信，”我在书中称他为男朋友，“我不敢相信他这么做了。”我想，“不，我想说他是个好人。”你必须明白，我是通过分手的视角来看待这件事的，然后随着时间的推移，我发现我也对此负有责任。

I had a role in this, too.

我在这件事上也扮演了一个角色。

I chose not to see the things that I didn't want to see because I didn't want to live in that world of the breakup.

我选择不看那些我不想看的事情，因为我不想生活在那个分手的世界里。

Right?

正确的？

So I think it's wanting what you were saying earlier about wanting to have a shared narrative.

所以我认为它想要你之前所说的想要有一个共同的叙述。

We feel so wounded by the fact that the person, let's say that they broke up with us, or even if you break up with them, that they don't see the relationship the way you saw it.

我们感到非常受伤，因为这个人，比如说他们和我们分手了，或者即使你和他们分手了，他们也没有按照你的方式看待这段关系。

They had a different experience of it, and you feel like, well, they're not seeing it in the right way.

他们对此有不同的经历，你会觉得，嗯，他们没有以正确的方式看待它。

No, they are seeing it in the right way from their perspective.

不，他们从自己的角度以正确的方式看待这件事。

And I think that we have this way of wanting to heal the wound by their saying, "Oh, no, you were great in this relationship.

我认为我们有这种想要治愈伤口的方式，他们会说：“哦，不，你在这段关系中表现得很好。

It was me."

是我。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Or we were both great, and it just didn't work out.

或者我们都很棒，只是没有成功。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right.

对。

And we so want that, and the reality is that your partner's going to see things about you that maybe you don't agree with, or maybe they're true, and that's why they hurt.

我们非常希望这样，而现实是，你的伴侣会看到关于你的事情，也许你不同意，或者也许他们是真的，这就是他们受伤的原因。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

I always find I miss the person's smell.

我总是发现我想念这个人的气味。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm.

嗯。

Yes.

是的。

It's those little things, those-

就是那些小事，那些——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah

是啊

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

...

sort of intangibles.

某种无形资产。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I think that takes the longest.

我认为这需要最长的时间。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I have a really good audio memory, too.

我的音频记忆力也非常好。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I can close my eyes, I've been able to do this since I was a kid, and hear people's voices.

我可以闭上眼睛，我从小就可以这样做，听到人们的声音。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And yeah.

是的。

But smells, I think, we come to expect them.

但我想，气味是我们所期待的。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And then we don't notice they're there.

然后我们就没有注意到他们在那里。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And then the person's gone, and then we're like, "Well, it smells different here."

然后那个人就走了，然后我们就想，“好吧，这里闻起来不一样了。”

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

So there's this theory, it's from the Gottmans, who do this research on couples.

所以有这个理论，它来自戈特曼夫妇，他们对夫妻进行了这项研究。

And they talk about the bank of goodwill, that you need five deposits into the bank of goodwill for every one withdrawal.

他们谈论商誉银行，每一笔提款都需要向商誉银行存入五笔钱。

And so we tend to, when we're in a relationship and we don't like something about something that's happening in the relationship, we think about what's not working.

因此，当我们处于一段关系中并且我们不喜欢这段关系中发生的某些事情时，我们往往会思考哪些事情不起作用。

We're taking all these withdrawals from the bank of goodwill, but things like smell, that's a deposit.

我们从商誉银行提取所有这些款项，但像气味这样的东西，那就是存款。

Like, "You smell so good.

就像，“你闻起来真香。

I really like your smell." Do we say that enough?

我真的很喜欢你的味道。”我们说得够多了吗？

Do we focus on the things-- Like how many deposits are we actually making so that when we do make a withdrawal, it doesn't empty the bank account?

我们是否关注一些事情——比如我们实际存了多少存款，这样当我们提款时，银行账户就不会被清空？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

And it's usually when a breakup happens that all of a sudden we think about all those things that we didn't deposit, but now we miss, right?

通常，当分手发生时，我们会突然想起那些我们没有存入的东西，但现在我们想念了，对吗？

That were sitting in our bank account, and we don't have access to that account anywhere.

那是在我们的银行帐户中，我们无法在任何地方访问该帐户。

The account's closed.

帐户已关闭。

But when the account was open, we didn't look at what we had in there.

但当账户开设时，我们并没有查看里面有什么。

And I think that the people who are, what I see with couples who are most successful, are the people who do notice what's in the bank account, even if they have to take a withdrawal every now and again.

我认为，我在最成功的夫妇身上看到的那些人，是那些确实注意到银行账户里有什么的人，即使他们不得不时不时地提款。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm always struck by how people talk about their partners when their partners aren't around.

当伴侣不在身边时，人们谈论伴侣的方式总是让我感到惊讶。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Very important.

非常重要。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The other day, this kid came up to me in the gym.

有一天，这个孩子在健身房向我走来。

Kid.

孩子。

He was probably in his 30s, but there I go again.

他大概三十多岁了，但我又来了。

He was a podcast fan, and we were just chatting.

他是一个播客迷，我们只是聊天。

I like to ask people, "What do you do?" And he's in tech, I think.

我喜欢问别人：“你是做什么的？”我认为他从事科技行业。

Now I don't recall, but, and so I was like, "Where are you from?" And he's like, he's from Brazil.

现在我不记得了，但是，所以我就问，“你来自哪里？”他就像，他来自巴西。

Cool.

凉爽的。

And then we were talking about something, and he said, "My girlfriend..." And then we got into some discussion about travel and South America or something, and then at one point he said, "Oh, yeah.

然后我们正在谈论一些事情，他说，“我的女朋友……”然后我们开始讨论旅行和南美之类的事情，然后有一次他说，“哦，是的。

She's like my flower."

她就像我的花一样。”

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And the way he said it, I was like, wow, that's beautiful.

他说的方式，我就想，哇，那太美了。

Again, I'm half Latin, but I haven't heard that enough.

再说一次，我有一半拉丁血统，但我还没有听够。

And I was like, wow.

我当时想，哇。

And I said, "That's amazing that you just referred to her as a flower." He goes, "Yes, she's like the flower in my life."

我说：“你居然把她称为一朵花，真是太神奇了。”他说：“是的，她就像我生命中的花朵。”

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I was like, wow.

我当时想，哇。

You don't hear that that often.

你不常听到这样的话。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I also don't get into conversations like this very often.

我也不经常进行这样的对话。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But somehow he just shared that spontaneously.

但不知何故，他只是自发地分享了这一点。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And she wasn't there to hear it.

而她并不在那里听。

I can't remember the guy's name.

我不记得那人的名字了。

Forgive me.

对不起。

She'll never know that he referred to her that way, but it was really beautiful.

她永远不会知道他是这样称呼她的，但这真的很美丽。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And there are certain people, like I heard Rogan one day talking about his wife on a podcast, and he was like, "She's just so nice."

有些人，就像有一天我听到罗根在播客上谈论他的妻子，他说，“她真是太好了。”

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The appreciation he has for her in the small details of how he refers to her.

他对她的欣赏体现在他如何提及她的小细节上。

And those are just two examples.

这只是两个例子。

And then I could give a bunch of negative examples about people.

然后我可以举出一堆关于人们的负面例子。

Gosh.

天哪。

I don't want to put it on one or the other side of the male-female dynamic, but when people say like, "Oh, yeah.

我不想把它放在男女动态的一边或另一边，但是当人们说，“哦，是的。

They're a pain in my ass."

他们让我很痛苦。”

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Or referring to people as their old lady or their old man.

或者称人们为他们的老太太或他们的老人。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's an interesting, but kind of in my mind, not the sweetest way.

Maybe it could be.

也许可以。

Maybe it depends on the tone.

也许这取决于语气。

Anyway, I'm casting a lot of shadows and light where perhaps I shouldn't.

But that interaction was delightful, and I thought awesome for him and awesome for her.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

That's why I often start a couples session with how did you meet?

Because usually when people come to couples therapy, they think the first thing that's going to happen is you're going to say, "So what's going on?" Then they'll start with the problem.

因为通常当人们来接受夫妻治疗时，他们认为要做的第一件事就是你会说，“那么发生了什么事？”然后他们会从问题开始。

And then they're in that withdrawal from the bank account space.

然后他们就进入了从银行账户提款的空间。

So I like to say, "Well, tell me how you met." And immediately, usually, there's like, "Oh," and they have this great story, right?

所以我喜欢说：“好吧，告诉我你们是怎么认识的。”通常，人们会立即发出“哦”的声音，他们有一个很棒的故事，对吧？

And they remember what they love about the other person.

So we start with that, and you can see them sort of remembering who the person is that they fell in love with.

Like, "Oh, I thought he was so cute," or, "Oh, it was just really, we were friends for a year, and I didn't know if he liked me, and then this happened, and then I really admired this about him or her." Right?

比如，“哦，我觉得他很可爱”，或者，“哦，真的，我们做了一年朋友，我不知道他是否喜欢我，然后这件事发生了，然后我真的很钦佩他或她。”正确的？

And so they start in this different space, and I think about it like, and this is going to sound like a weird metaphor, but you think about non-stick pans versus a regular pan that you have to put something in so that the stuff doesn't stick to it.

所以他们从这个不同的空间开始，我想，这听起来像是一个奇怪的比喻，但你会想到不粘锅与普通锅，你必须在里面放一些东西，这样东西就不会粘在上面。

When I think about there are people for whom the good stuff, they're like Teflon pans.

The good stuff doesn't stick.

好东西是粘不住的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Hmm.

嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

But the bad stuff about the other person sticks like a pan that sticks, right?

So it's like, you think about what is sticking about your partner when you think about what they're putting in the pan, right?

Are you a Teflon pan for good things, or are you a different kind of pan for good things?

Because you have to think, what am I focusing on?

Where does my attention go?

我的注意力去哪儿了？

And so, why are you focusing on the things that are upsetting you so much?

And there are certain things that you're never going to change about your partner.

We don't get to order up our partners à la carte.

We don't get to say, "I'll take these qualities of my partner, but I'll take this thing that I don't like about them on the side." You don't get to do that.

We don't get to say, "I'll take these qualities of my partner, but I'll take this thing that I don't like about them on the side."你不能这么做。

People come, there are no substitutions.

人来了，没有替代品。

They come as a whole.

他们作为一个整体而来。

That's it.

就是这样。

That's what's offered on the menu.

这就是菜单上提供的内容。

And so people think, well, I can change the thing that I don't like, and I can make that person à la carte.

You can't do that.

你不能那样做。

You can't order them up that way.

你不能这样订购它们。

So there are always going to be things that irritate you or that are suboptimal in a perfect world about your partner.

Are you going to focus on that, or are you going to focus on the things that you really love about your partner?

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There's a saying from 12-step, which is identify, don't compare.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Which is, because you'll hear people outside of 12 step talking about, for instance, "Well, he's this, this, and this, and ambitious, and this and that, but he's kind of emotionally unavailable, but he's more available." And people will talk about male or female partners, right, or potential partners or people that they're dating as if you could kludge together the best of all people-

因为你会听到 12 步之外的人谈论，例如，“嗯，他是这个、这个、这个，而且雄心勃勃，还有这个那个，但他在情感上有点难以接近，但他更容易接近。”人们会谈论男性或女性伴侣，对吧，或者潜在的伴侣或他们正在约会的人，就好像你可以把所有人中最好的人拼凑在一起一样——

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

and get this perfect tapestry of the person that's got all the features you want.

Because yeah, some people are a little more easygoing, lighthearted, and sometimes, not always, less ambitious.

Those things, in my experience, tend to correlate, not always.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Some people are super hard driving.

有些人开车超级努力。

They get it done, and they have the capacity to be immense providers, but they have less time, and sometimes they're not as emotionally available.

他们完成了任务，并且有能力成为巨大的提供者，但他们的时间较少，有时他们在情感上也不太可用。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Again, stereotyping like crazy here.

再次，刻板印象在这里疯狂。

But people get this idea that through the comparison, they can arrive at the perfect person, when in fact, I think appreciation, not being Teflon about the positive stuff, comes from kind of shutting out the idea that there's an alternative.

但人们认为，通过比较，他们可以找到完美的人，而事实上，我认为欣赏，而不是对积极事物的特氟隆，来自于排除存在替代方案的想法。

But of course, you don't want to end up in a situation where the person is truly not good for you, right?

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Well, right.

嗯，对。

That's not what I'm talking about.

我说的不是这个。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

And I don't think you are.

我不认为你是。

But yeah, with that caveat, I think that accepting that people are complicated, and there is no kludging together of people.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

At some point, you make a choice.

在某些时候，你会做出选择。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

And this is when people cheat.

这就是人们作弊的时候。

What often happens is there's a specific quality about their partner, maybe.

Sometimes it has nothing to do with your partner, by the way, and I think this is so important to talk about when we talk about infidelity, that often it really has nothing to do with the partner.

顺便说一句，有时它与你的伴侣无关，我认为当我们谈论不忠时，谈论这一点非常重要，以至于通常它实际上与伴侣无关。

That somebody is expecting their partner, again, going back to vitality and aliveness, to provide that for them, and if the partner doesn't provide that for them, but your partner shouldn't be providing that for you.

有人期待他们的伴侣再次恢复活力和生机，为他们提供这些，如果伴侣没有为他们提供这些，但你的伴侣不应该为你提供这些。

They're additive.

它们是附加的。

They're not providing a lack or a deficit in you.

That sometimes that's why people cheat, but other times they say, like, "There's this quality about my partner that is really, I don't like it." Let's take, for example, "I wish that my partner were more," let's say, "ambitious." So they go and they cheat with someone who's more ambitious, but then the person isn't loving or isn't communicative or isn't whatever the other good qualities that the partner they have has.

That sometimes that's why people cheat, but other times they say, like, "There's this quality about my partner that is really, I don't like it." Let's take, for example, "I wish that my partner were more," let's say, "ambitious."所以他们去和一个更有野心的人欺骗，但这个人不爱或不善于沟通，或者不具备他们的伴侣所拥有的其他良好品质。

So they think that by replacing this one trait, that the other person's going to have all the other great traits that the existing partner already has.

因此，他们认为，通过替换这一特征，另一个人将拥有现有伴侣已经拥有的所有其他优秀特征。

And generally, you're trading one set of problems for another set of problems.

So it's interesting that people think, "I can fix this problem because this person has that thing that I really want." Now, if your partner doesn't have any of that, it's a degree.

It's on a spectrum.

它在一个范围内。

So is your partner not ambitious at all, or is your partner ambitious about different kinds of things?

那么，你的伴侣到底是根本没有雄心勃勃，还是你的伴侣对不同的事情都雄心勃勃？

Like, they want to be a really good parent, and they're really invested in that, or they want to do something philanthropic, and they're really invested in that, but it doesn't pay a lot.

比如，他们想成为一个真正的好父母，他们真的为此投入了很多，或者他们想做一些慈善事业，他们真的为此投入了很多，但回报并不多。

So what energizes them?

Where's their purpose?

Where's their meaning?

There's different kinds of ambition.

有不同种类的野心。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I feel like placing one's attention on the good things as much as possible and really letting those fill us up-

我想尽可能地将注意力放在美好的事物上，并真正让它们充满我们——

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

as much as possible is really key.

尽可能多的确实是关键。

I didn't say this.

我没说过这个。

I borrowed this, but that two of the most dangerous words in the English language are "if only." This idea, like if only this.

我借用了这个，但英语中最危险的两个词是“如果”。这个想法，如果只是这样就好了。

Because for two reasons.

因为有两个原因。

One is it's very unlikely that if only comes true, but the other one is it takes our attention away from seeing what's there.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right.

对。

So I like to say it's the difference between the what if and the what is.

所以我想说这是“假设”和“事实是什么”之间的区别。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Hmm.

嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

And people who focus too much on the what if, "What if this?" They lose sight of what is.

还有那些过于关注“如果”的人，“如果这样会怎样？”他们看不到真相。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

And usually, there's so much good ...

而且通常情况下，有很多好东西......

that they really don't want to give up in the what is.

他们真的不想放弃现状。

So if you're going to keep focusing on the what if, you blind yourself to the what is.

因此，如果你继续关注假设，你就会对事实视而不见。

And I think the what if is a big trap.

我认为“假设”是一个很大的陷阱。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

I think this notion of attention and appreciation just seems so fundamental.

我认为这种关注和欣赏的概念似乎非常重要。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Well, think of it, so I am sort of an amateur photographer, and I think about it like you can take a picture, you can focus on the same subject, you can focus on one part of it, or you can just move the camera slightly, and then you're focused on something entirely different.

好吧，想一想，我是一名业余摄影师，我认为你可以拍一张照片，你可以聚焦在同一个主题上，你可以聚焦在它的一部分上，或者你可以稍微移动相机，然后你就聚焦在完全不同的东西上。

But it's the same thing that I'm taking a picture of, right?

但这和我拍照的东西是一样的，对吧？

So I always say to people, "Your focus is always on this.

所以我总是对人们说：“你的注意力总是在这上面。

Can you move the camera slightly and find a different part to focus the camera on?" If you're always focusing on something that makes you unhappy, you're going to be unhappy.

你能稍微移动一下相机并找到一个不同的部分来对相机进行对焦吗？”如果你总是专注于让你不快乐的事情，你就会不快乐。

So why don't you just move the camera and focus on the other things?

那么为什么不移动相机并专注于其他事情呢？

You get to choose.

People think they have no choice in the matter, right?

人们认为他们在这件事上别无选择，对吗？

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

"Well, my brain just goes there.

“好吧，我的大脑就在那里。

My mind just goes there." It's like, no, you get to choose what you put your attention on.

我的心思就在那里。”就像，不，你可以选择你的注意力放在什么上。

You actually have a choice.

你实际上有一个选择。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What I love about what's coming through here is that you emphasize the role of these unconscious processes.

我喜欢这里所发生的事情，因为你强调了这些无意识过程的作用。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We default to people that aren't healthy for us sometimes, not always.

我们有时会默认那些对我们不健康的人，但并非总是如此。

And yet you also emphasize that we have a lot of agency.

但您也强调我们有很多代理机构。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

These days, it seems like there's a default toward looking outward.

如今，人们似乎默认向外看。

For all that's been said about meditation and reflection and journaling on this podcast and others, we all know these tools are available.

They basically just take time.

他们基本上只需要时间。

With meditation, you don't even need a pen and paper.

通过冥想，你甚至不需要笔和纸。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But we tend to look outward for answers.

但我们倾向于向外寻找答案。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Do you ever give homework to your patients to just think or journal, or does their work tend to be more behavioral?

您是否曾经给患者布置过家庭作业，让他们思考或记录，或者他们的工作是否倾向于行为？

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

It's kind of like I feel like the work that we do in the room is about understanding.

我觉得我们在房间里所做的工作就是为了理解。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

And understanding sort of where the gap is between what we say we want and what we actually do.

并了解我们所说的我们想要的和我们实际做的之间的差距在哪里。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

So usually it's all about what is in that gap, what is getting in the way, because we're very clear, by the way, about what we want, usually.

因此，通常情况下，问题的关键在于差距中存在什么、阻碍了什么，因为顺便说一句，我们通常非常清楚我们想要什么。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

And then there's some gap between our behavior that isn't moving in that direction, in fact, moves us often, either keeps us stuck or moves us in the opposite direction.

然后，我们的行为之间存在一些差距，这些差距并没有朝那个方向发展，事实上，它经常让我们感动，要么让我们陷入困境，要么让我们朝相反的方向发展。

So it's kind of out in the world between sessions, we're working on the behavior around what is getting in the way in that gap.

因此，这有点像在会议之间的世界，我们正在研究在这个间隙中阻碍的行为。

And then we're doing the thinking and the feeling in the session.

然后我们在会议中进行思考和感受。

I don't mean that people aren't thinking and feeling outside of session.

我并不是说人们在会议之外没有思考和感受。

It means they're using their feelings and their thoughts differently.

这意味着他们以不同的方式运用自己的感受和想法。

They're taking different actions with the feelings and thoughts outside of the session.

他们根据会议之外的感受和想法采取不同的行动。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Do you ever tell people, "Whenever you think that, just do the opposite?"

你是否曾告诉人们：“每当你这么想时，就做相反的事情？”

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

So it's really funny because so many people say, "Your gut knows," right?

所以这真的很有趣，因为很多人说，“你的直觉知道，”对吗？

"Listen to your gut." And for some people, because it's historical, right, what's in their gut, it's like, "No, no, no. Don't listen to your gut." And it sounds really strange for a therapist to say to somebody, "No, don't listen to your gut." But sometimes you literally have to say to people, "Whatever your first instinct is there, do the opposite.

"Listen to your gut."对于某些人来说，因为这是历史性的，对吧，他们的直觉就是，“不，不，不。不要听从你的直觉。”对于治疗师来说，对某人说“不，不要听从你的直觉”听起来真的很奇怪。但有时你确实必须对人们说：“无论你的第一直觉是什么，请做相反的事情。

Do the thing that feels uncomfortable." Because your gut is what feels comfortable.

做一些让你感觉不舒服的事情。”因为你的直觉让你感觉舒服。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

And the thing that feels comfortable, again, is the familiar, and the familiar isn't necessarily the thing that is going to lead you to where you want to go.

再次强调，感觉舒服的东西就是熟悉的东西，而熟悉的东西不一定会带你去你想去的地方。

So it's not like I want people to second-guess themselves or not trust themselves.

所以我不想让人们事后怀疑自己或不相信自己。

It's that sometimes you have to learn how to hear that very, very quiet voice inside you because your gut is the louder one, right?

有时候你必须学会如何听到你内心那个非常非常安静的声音，因为你的直觉是最响亮的，对吧？

Your gut is your first instinct, and it's the kind of the pre-programmed, the pattern, the automatic response.

你的直觉是你的第一本能，它是一种预先编程的、模式的、自动的反应。

If you think when we talk about sort of neurological pathways, there's this freeway that's been built with this one response.

Here's the input, right, and here's the map that follows.

这是输入，右边，这是下面的地图。

This person did this, and you're going to travel down that freeway because that's been the well-paved road because you've done it a million times, doesn't really work out for you.

这个人做到了这一点，而你将沿着那条高速公路行驶，因为那是一条铺好的路，因为你已经这样做了一百万次，但并不真正适合你。

I want people to create side roads and different roads and let's take a different path, and let's kind of dig out a new road, right?

我希望人们开辟支路和不同的道路，让我们走一条不同的道路，让我们挖一条新路，对吗？

That now, so your first instinct is still going to be like, "Let's get on the freeway." And I'm like, "No, let's take a side road.

现在，你的第一直觉仍然是，“我们上高速公路吧。” And I'm like, "No, let's take a side road.

Let's do something a little bit different.

让我们做一些不同的事情。

Let's take a different path." And that path will now become the new freeway because you're going to keep going down.

Let's take a different path."这条路现在将成为新的高速公路，因为你将继续向下行驶。

We're going to dig out that path.

The freeway is going to not be trafficked on.

高速公路上将不再有车辆通行。

We're going to shut down that freeway eventually, and you're going to have a new freeway that's your automatic path.

我们最终将关闭那条高速公路，而你将拥有一条新的高速公路，那就是你的自动路径。

So right now, you've got to do the opposite to build this new freeway.

所以现在，你必须做相反的事情来建造这条新的高速公路。

I just mixed 20 metaphors, but the point is that sometimes your gut is just taking you down a well-trodden path that is not the best path for you.

我只是混合了 20 个比喻，但要点是，有时你的直觉只会带你走上一条常人走过的路，但这条路对你来说并不是最好的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There's a great line in that movie, "High Fidelity," based on the Nick Hornby novel-

那部电影中有一句很棒的台词“高保真度”，改编自尼克·霍恩比的小说——

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

which I also highly recommend, where he's like, "People tell me that we should listen to our gut.

我也强烈推荐，他说，“人们告诉我，我们应该听从自己的直觉。

Well, after," whatever, "30 years, I've come to the conclusion that my gut has shit for brains."

好吧，不管怎么说，30 年后，我得出的结论是，我的肠道对大脑来说已经是屎了。”

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

That's right.

没错。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

He's just realizing that his reflex-

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

on what to do with his relationship life was just completely off.

该如何处理他的感情生活完全是错误的。

Some people will hear what we're talking about right now and will say, "Yeah, but my gut also tells me when I'm in danger." We're obviously not talking about when you can sense danger.

有些人听到我们现在正在谈论的内容后会说：“是的，但当我处于危险之中时，我的直觉也会告诉我。”我们显然不是在谈论什么时候你能感觉到危险。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

So here's the thing.

所以事情是这样的。

So what feels dangerous sometimes, so your gut is trying to protect you.

有时感觉很危险，所以你的直觉会试图保护你。

So what feels dangerous is going into this new situation.

因此，进入这种新情况会让人感到危险。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Because it's uncomfortable to do something different.

因为做一些不同的事情是不舒服的。

So your gut is saying, "Oh, let's do the comfortable thing that we've always done," even if the comfortable thing makes you miserable.

所以你的直觉会说，“哦，让我们做我们一直做的舒服的事情吧”，即使舒适的事情让你痛苦。

"Let's do the comfortable thing that we've always done because it feels very dangerous to try this new thing."

“让我们做我们一直做的舒服的事情，因为尝试这种新事物感觉非常危险。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

But sometimes Doing the thing that feels dangerous is actually less dangerous.

但有时做感觉危险的事情实际上危险性较小。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh my.

天哪。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

So, in other words, a lot of times people say, "I don't want to take a risk.

所以，换句话说，很多时候人们会说：“我不想冒险。

It's too risky." But sometimes the safest thing you can do is to take a risk.

这太冒险了。”但有时你能做的最安全的事情就是冒险。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Doing the safe thing is actually, you say it's too risky.

做安全的事其实你说风险太大。

The safest thing you can do is to take a risk because it's going to lead you closer to what you want to accomplish or the thing that you're trying to get toward.

你能做的最安全的事情就是冒险，因为它会让你更接近你想要完成的事情或你正在努力实现的目标。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I completely agree.

我完全同意。

Also in my life, I've had the experience of, I've taken big risks with my career-

在我的生活中，我也有过这样的经历，我在我的职业生涯中冒了很大的风险——

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

multiple times, and it's always worked out, thank goodness.

好几次了，总能成功，谢天谢地。

A lot of my teen years and 20s and 30s were spent learning to overcome the adrenaline response.

我十几岁、二十多岁和三十多岁的大部分时间都花在学习克服肾上腺素反应上。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I learned to take progressively more and more risk and ended up having an air failure scuba diving, cage exit diving with great white sharks.

我学会了逐渐承担越来越大的风险，最终因空气故障水肺潜水、与大白鲨一起进行笼出口潜水。

I don't say this to sound tough.

I say this because it's like, what was I thinking?

我这么说是因为我在想什么？

I took it too far.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So I think learning to overcome the adrenaline response and be calm, and adrenaline, I think, has its value.

I also took tremendous risk in my personal life, getting involved with people I never should've gotten involved with, and I blame myself.

我在个人生活中也冒了巨大的风险，与那些我不应该接触的人交往，我责怪自己。

I don't blame them.

我不怪他们。

I was in choice.

So I can imagine that some people are so averse to danger that they don't put themselves into circumstances in which they could really come to thrive.

所以我可以想象，有些人是如此厌恶危险，以至于他们不会将自己置于真正可以茁壮成长的环境中。

And some people are just wired to go into the fire-

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

to the point where it's destructive-

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

either with physical pursuits or in romantic relationships.

无论是身体追求还是浪漫关系。

I'll take it outside my own story.

I have a dear friend who was in an incredibly physically abusive relationship, number 12.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And she eventually came to the conclusion that her threat-sensing threshold was just way too high.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Did some really good work to understand why that was and realized that her fear response didn't kick in until it was like a nine-alarm fire.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And so she needed to listen to that, as you mentioned, that super quiet whisper early on, because anyone else who didn't have her history, which is sadly a very challenging history in her family, would've immediately been like, "Yeah, I'm out." But she was like, "This is normal."

所以，正如你提到的，她需要尽早听到那种超级安静的耳语，因为任何没有她的历史的人都会立即说，“是的，我出去了。” But she was like, "This is normal."

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

When I was in medical school, I remember the people who wanted to work in the ER, who were like, "I want to do emergency medicine," were people often who grew up in environments where danger was a part of it.

当我在医学院时，我记得那些想在急诊室工作的人，他们会说，“我想做急诊医学”，他们往往是在危险的环境中长大的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

So they're used to that, and it doesn't really strike them as their sense of danger, their barometer is different from maybe a different person's.

所以他们已经习惯了，而且他们并没有真正感受到危险，他们的晴雨表可能与其他人的不同。

I think of it as like a thermostat.

When you think about, let's say you want to set your thermostat at 72 degrees.

Some people, their thermostat is off because in their house, they did the slightest thing, and their parents treated it like it was a huge, horrible mistake, and they're bad, and it was an emergency.

有些人，他们的恒温器关闭了，因为在他们的房子里，他们做了最轻微的事情，他们的父母把它当作一个巨大的、可怕的错误，他们很糟糕，这是一个紧急情况。

So they don't know how to calibrate, like what does 72 actually feel like?

Or the opposite, some big thing happened, and their parents underreacted, and so they don't really know what does 72 feel like?

I don't really know what that good temperature is like.

So I think that there's a lot of people who stay in situations that are like, it's like other people would say, "Whoa, it's like 100 degrees in here.

所以我认为有很多人都处于这样的情况，就像其他人会说的，“哇，这里的温度就像 100 度。

Get out.

出去吧。

There's a fire." And this person's like, "No, it just feels like 72." They don't know.

There's a fire." And this person's like, "No, it just feels like 72."他们不知道。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

And so it's really about recalibrating, and I think when we talk about risk and danger, you have to learn how to calibrate your own thermostat, and I think that that's really important.

所以这实际上是关于重新校准，我认为当我们谈论风险和危险时，你必须学习如何校准你自己的恒温器，我认为这非常重要。

We talk about the difference between productive anxiety and unproductive anxiety.

So unproductive anxiety is there's some kind of danger, and I'm going to ruminate, and ruminate, and ruminate, and I'm thinking about it all the time, and somehow that's going to keep me safe because I'm thinking about it.

因此，非生产性焦虑是存在某种危险，我会反复思考，反复思考，反复思考，我一直在思考它，不知何故，这会保证我的安全，因为我正在思考它。

And then there's productive anxiety, which is, "Oh, it's good that I sense the danger because I'm going to do something about this.

I have a plan for how to deal with this." So it might be, I'm in this relationship, and it just doesn't feel right, and this person is acting this way toward me, and I know I shouldn't be treated this way, but I don't know.

I have a plan for how to deal with this."所以可能是，我处于这段关系中，感觉不太对劲，这个人对我这样做，我知道我不应该被这样对待，但我不知道。

Maybe it's okay.

也许没关系。

That's not productive.

这没有生产力。

That's just anxiety.

You're just circling, ruminating.

Productive anxiety would be like, something's wrong.

I shouldn't be treated this way, so my plan is I'm going to try to talk to my partner about this, or we're going to go to therapy about this and see if it improves, and if it doesn't, I'm going to leave to find a different relationship.

我不应该受到这样的对待，所以我的计划是我会尝试和我的伴侣谈论这件事，或者我们会去接受治疗，看看它是否有所改善，如果没有，我会离开去寻找不同的关系。

You're right.

你说得对。

You want to sense danger, but the question is, is it productive or is it unproductive?

What do we do with it?

我们用它做什么？

So people, when I say, "Trust your gut," somebody might say, "Well, my gut is that when things are really unpleasant, you stick with it because my parent stuck with my other parent when things were really unpleasant, and that's what you do." So that doesn't make sense.

所以人们，当我说“相信你的直觉”时，有人可能会说，“嗯，我的直觉是，当事情真的不愉快时，你会坚持下去，因为当事情真的不愉快时，我的父母会坚持我的另一位父母，这就是你所做的。” So that doesn't make sense.

So I think that do the opposite in that case.

It's like, oh, you think you're supposed to stay in this case because your parents did?

就像，哦，你认为你应该留在这种情况下，因为你的父母这样做了？

Do the opposite.

反其道而行之。

See what happens if you do something different.

看看如果你做一些不同的事情会发生什么。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We hear that there's value to being able to be on one's own.

我们听说能够独立是很有价值的。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Some people seem to always need to be in a relationship.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And some people probably don't.

有些人可能不这么认为。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But do you think there's value to people really understanding themselves first?

但你认为人们首先真正了解自己有价值吗？

I know some couples that got together in their first year of college that are still Together.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They have kids now in college-

他们现在有孩子上大学了

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

which is a trip.

这是一次旅行。

And they seem super happy.

他们看起来超级高兴。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They are super happy from what I know.

据我所知，他们非常高兴。

And I know people that have had many relationships and then find somebody, and some people take time on their own, some people don't.

我知道有些人有过很多关系，然后找到了某个人，有些人需要自己花时间，有些人则不会。

How important is this notion about knowing oneself, really?

了解自己的观念到底有多重要？

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

So when you look at what are the factors that determine the success of a relationship or a marriage, emotional maturity is number one.

因此，当你审视决定一段关系或婚姻成功的因素时，情感成熟度是第一位的。

Number two, by the way, is flexibility.

顺便说一下，第二点是灵活性。

That being with someone incredibly rigid is very hard.

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Define rigid.

定义刚性。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Rigid is things have to be this way.

刚性就是事情必须这样。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In the practical space, like toothpaste has to be on the right, not on the left kind of thing.

在实际空间中，就像牙膏必须在右侧，而不是在左侧之类的东西。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

And emotionally rigid, like this is wrong, this is right.

而且感情上僵化，像这样是错的，这是对的。

This is the way you do it, this is not the way you do it.

这是你做事的方式，这不是你做事的方式。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

You behave this way, you don't behave this way.

你这样做，你不这样做。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

As opposed to people have different personalities, they have different ways of communicating.

与人不同的性格相反，他们有不同的沟通方式。

And yes, the rigidity around the household, of course, too.

But just a rigid personality.

但只是性格刚硬而已。

Like, "I can't leave it this time.

就像，“这次我不能离开它。

I have to leave it this time.

这次我必须离开它。

We have to be here now." Like whatever.

我们现在必须在这里。”喜欢什么。

There's no flexibility around anything, or even flexibility around plans.

任何事情都没有灵活性，甚至计划也没有灵活性。

When you get married, you don't know what 5 years, 10 years down the line is going to be like.

当你结婚的时候，你不知道5年、10年后会是什么样子。

Are you flexible with how you're moving in whatever direction, the other person is moving in whatever direction?

你是否能够灵活地决定自己朝哪个方向移动，而其他人也朝哪个方向移动？

If you need things to be static, that's very rigid, and it's hard because people are not static.

如果你需要事物是静态的，那就非常僵化，而且很难，因为人不是静态的。

There are things about their core personality that tend to be static, but people evolve, and so you have to leave room for the evolution of their three entities.

他们的核心人格有些东西往往是静态的，但人是在进化的，所以你必须为他们的三个实体的进化留出空间。

There's you, there's the other person, and there's the relationship.

有你，有另一个人，还有关系。

And all three of those entities are going to evolve over time, and if you don't have flexibility and you insist that they stay exactly the same, that's going to be problematic.

所有这三个实体都会随着时间的推移而发展，如果你没有灵活性并且坚持让它们保持完全相同，那就会出现问题。

Going back to whether somebody needs to spend time alone before they get into a relationship or how much you need to know yourself before you get into a relationship, I think people have this misconception that they have to be fully formed before they can get into a relationship.

回到某人在建立关系之前是否需要独处，或者在建立关系之前你需要了解自己多少，我认为人们有这样的误解，认为他们必须完全成形才能建立关系。

And the thing is that you grow in connection with others.

问题是你会在与他人的联系中成长。

And so people, you're saying you're so surprised that these people met in college and they've been together all this time, and of course, they were so young.

所以大家，你们说你们很惊讶这些人是在大学里认识的，而且他们一直在一起，当然，他们还那么年轻。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, no, I'm not surprised.

哦，不，我并不感到惊讶。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Oh, you're not surprised?

哦，你不惊讶吗？

Okay.

好的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No, I'm envious.

不，我很羡慕。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Okay.

好的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In a light way, because they got their first jobs in parallel.

以一种轻松的方式，因为他们同时得到了第一份工作。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Sadly, their parents passed away in parallel.

不幸的是，他们的父母同时去世。

They went through a number of life evolutions together.

他们一起经历了许多人生的演变。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Their life story is a commingled story.

他们的人生故事是一个复杂的故事。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yes.

是的。

It reminds me of, I had a therapy client who was divorced, and she was talking about dating again, and she met someone great.

这让我想起，我有一个离婚的治疗客户，她正在谈论再次约会，她遇到了一个很棒的人。

And she said, "I love this person so much, and this person is actually a much better person for me," but there's a sadness that she said, "He will never have met my parents," because they had died.

她说，“我非常爱这个人，这个人对我来说实际上是一个更好的人，”但她说，“他永远不会见到我的父母”，因为他们已经去世了，这让她感到悲伤。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

"He will not know all these things about who I was when I was 25 or 35, or what it was like when I went through this particular thing in life." Or again, wasn't there with the birth of our children, didn't know our kids at that age.

“他不会知道我 25 岁或 35 岁时的所有这些事情，也不知道我在生活中经历这件事时的感受。”或者再说一遍，我们的孩子出生时我不在场，不认识我们那个年纪的孩子。

So it's true that there's something very important about having a shared history.

因此，拥有共同的历史确实非常重要。

It's not end-all be-all.

这不是最终的一切。

She's happier in that second marriage.

她在第二次婚姻中过得更幸福。

But there is something to be said about people think, "Well, I have to wait until I'm at this point before I can seriously consider dating someone who might become my life partner." And I think that you grow in connection with people.

但对于人们的想法，有一些话要说：“好吧，我必须等到这个时候，我才能认真考虑与可能成为我生活伴侣的人约会。”我认为你会与人建立联系。

Or people say, "I'm not ready to be in a relationship because I don't know enough about myself." You're going to learn so much more about yourself when you are with someone because you're forced to.

或者人们会说，“我还没有准备好建立恋爱关系，因为我对自己还不够了解。”当你和某人在一起时，你会更加了解自己，因为你被迫这样做。

Someone's holding up a mirror to you.

有人举起一面镜子给你看。

It's like how I was saying earlier, that when I see couples, people grow individually so much faster because they're in relationship with someone and really having that mirror held up to them.

You can sit there and think by yourself till you turn blue in the face, but the reality is no one's giving you feedback.

你可以坐在那里自己思考，直到你脸色发青，但现实是没有人给你反馈。

You're not interacting.

你们没有互动。

You're not pushing up against anything.

你没有反对任何事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, I totally agree.

是的，我完全同意。

Certainly, most of my evolution has been in relation to other things, and not just romantic relationships.

当然，我的大部分进化都与其他事物有关，而不仅仅是浪漫关系。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Like jobs that didn't feel right, that I eventually moved on to a different job.

就像感觉不合适的工作一样，我最终换了另一份工作。

You just learn so much-

你刚刚学到了很多东西-

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

based also on what didn't work.

还基于什么不起作用。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There's real information there.

那里有真实的信息。

I definitely want to go back to grief and talk about loss, but I feel like there's a hatch that we opened earlier that I'd like to peer into for a bit, which is this male/female distinction dynamic that nowadays is very prominent, especially in, I would say, people 40 and younger.

It's so different now in terms of the dynamics of what boys and men hear about boys and men generally, what girls and women hear about girls generally, and therefore-

现在，男孩和男人听到的有关男孩和男人的动态，以及女孩和女人听到的有关女孩的动态，现在已经非常不同了，因此——

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

how we think about ourselves.

我们如何看待自己。

But you have a son.

但你有一个儿子。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What do you think are some of the positive things that have evolved in this kind of landscape?

您认为在这种情况下发生的一些积极的事情是什么？

And then what do you think are some of the things that are creating problems?

那么您认为造成问题的因素有哪些？

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

For sake of romantic relationship, but also just relationship to self.

为了浪漫的关系，但也只是与自我的关系。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

I think romantically, it's very hard for young people in their teens and early 20s because they don't have an infrastructure around romantic relationships.

There's not the typical courting, because it feels old.

没有典型的求爱，因为感觉很老。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Guys don't ask girls out on dates anymore?

男生不再约女生出去了吗？

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

They do, but they don't really know how, or they do it on text, right?

他们确实这样做了，但他们真的不知道如何做，或者他们通过文字来做到这一点，对吗？

As opposed to just, there's something really profound about having to call someone on the phone and ask them out on a date.

与仅仅打电话相反，必须打电话给某人并约他们出去约会，这确实是一件意义深远的事情。

You grow so much as a person by doing that, and it kind of sets the stage for the relationship as well.

通过这样做，你作为一个人成长了很多，这也为这段关系奠定了基础。

Or asking someone out in person, it's hard.

You're really vulnerable.

你真的很脆弱。

So it's easy to kind of avoid vulnerability because you can do so many things on text and pretend that it's not a vulnerable act.

因此，避免漏洞很容易，因为您可以在文本上做很多事情，并假装这不是一个易受攻击的行为。

And people don't necessarily even call it a date.

人们甚至不一定称其为约会。

It's like, "Hey, you want to hang out?" Which is just kind of the language around it.

就像，“嘿，你想出去玩吗？”这只是一种围绕它的语言。

So there's not sort of the structure of we're going on a date.

所以我们没有约会的结构。

That's much less common.

这种情况不太常见。

Whereas in your era and my era, it was much more like you knew when you were being asked on a date.

而在你的时代和我的时代，当你被邀请约会时，你就知道了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Definitely.

绝对是。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

It was not so ambiguous.

并没有那么含糊。

And I think social media makes it really hard because any misstep, someone's going to post about it potentially, or they've got you on video, or things that are really embarrassing or scary when you're first getting into a relationship with someone.

That could become, if you're with the wrong person who's emotionally immature, and many young people, they're learning and growing.

如果你和一个情感不成熟的错误的人在一起，情况可能会变得如此，而且许多年轻人，他们正在学习和成长。

They do all kinds of things that humiliate the other person.

他们做各种羞辱他人的事情。

Like, "Here's a list of someone's red flags that I'm going to share with everybody." Can you imagine?

比如，“这是某人的危险信号列表，我将与大家分享。”你能想象吗？

And it's on social media.

而且它出现在社交媒体上。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So teens are doing this?

那么青少年正在这样做吗？

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

People in their 20s are doing this?

20多岁的人都这么干？

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yes.

是的。

Or, "Can you believe someone..." Like information that should remain private-

或者，“你能相信某人吗……”之类的信息应该保密——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

...

does not remain private.

不保持私密性。

I'm not talking about things that are bad that someone did that need to be reported.

我并不是在谈论某人所做的需要报告的坏事。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Sure.

当然。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

I'm talking about embarrassing things, or someone was socially unskilled.

我说的是令人尴尬的事情，或者某人不擅长社交。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Her breath was bad.

她的呼吸很糟糕。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

He smelled bad.

他闻起来很难闻。

That kind of thing.

那种事。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah, anything like, or this is what he did on the date that was embarrassing.

是的，类似的事情，或者这就是他在约会时所做的令人尴尬的事情。

He did this weird impression or whatever it is.

他做出了这种奇怪的印象或者其他什么。

But also just sexual encounters or nothing feels totally private.

但也只是性接触，或者没有什么感觉是完全私密的。

Just the level of trust that you have to have in your partner now that was just taken for granted.

现在你对伴侣的信任程度被认为是理所当然的。

Like sure, people might have said something to their best friend, but they also had better boundaries around that.

当然，人们可能会对他们最好的朋友说了些什么，但他们对此也有更好的界限。

You kind of knew in our society what was private and what was not.

在我们的社会中，你知道什么是私人的，什么不是。

And because people grow up on social media, they don't really have experience with this sort of there's a private sphere and there's a public sphere.

So it's all kind of blurred, and they don't really learn what is private and what is not.

所以这一切都很模糊，他们并没有真正了解什么是私人的，什么不是。

And I think it's really nerve-wracking for people, and so people don't take, we were talking about risk.

我认为这对人们来说真的很伤脑筋，所以人们不接受我们谈论的风险。

People don't take risks in relationships.

人们不会在人际关系中冒险。

They aren't really vulnerable because they're afraid that they will be humiliated.

他们并不是真的脆弱，因为他们害怕自己会受到羞辱。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So what do you think the need is to share that with the world?

那么您认为与世界分享这一点的必要性是什么？

Is it because then they don't have to acknowledge that it might have been, at least in part, them?

是因为这样他们就不必承认这可能是（至少部分是）他们造成的吗？

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Like if you paint red flags on somebody, then the person painting is not the one under scrutiny, right?

就像如果你在某人身上画出危险信号，那么画画的人就不是受到审查的人，对吗？

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

I think they just feel hurt-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

毫米

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

...

and so they feel like a dip in their self-esteem, and they want to feel validated.

所以他们感觉自尊心下降，他们想要得到认可。

And of course, if they make this list, their friends are going to say, "Yeah, you dodged a bullet."

当然，如果他们上了这个名单，他们的朋友会说：“是的，你躲过了子弹。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

"This person wasn't right for you.

“这个人不适合你。

You deserve better." And then they feel better about it.

你值得更好的。” And then they feel better about it.

But you don't grow from that.

So the thing is that if you can sit with that really hurts, and this person is not the arbiter of my self-worth, whoever broke up with me.

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

And for whatever reason, just because someone doesn't value you doesn't mean you don't have value.

无论出于何种原因，仅仅因为有人不重视你并不意味着你没有价值。

And I think that's a really important lesson for people to learn.

So, if I took some gold, right?

Like a brick of gold.

就像一块金砖。

And someone said, "I don't like that.

I like silver," or I like whatever I like, right?

我喜欢银子，”或者我喜欢任何我喜欢的东西，对吗？

Doesn't mean the gold inherently lost value.

It means that for that person, that block of gold didn't have value, but the gold has the same amount of value that it had.

And I think that we tend to kind of consider somebody else's opinion of us to be the arbiter of our worth, and it's not.

我认为我们倾向于将别人对我们的看法视为我们价值的仲裁者，但事实并非如此。

Like your worth is stable, and some people will value it, some people won't.

就像你的价值是稳定的，有的人会看重，有的人不会。

Find the people who value it because those are the people that you want to be with.

找到重视它的人，因为他们是你想与之在一起的人。

But it doesn't mean that you have less value because somebody doesn't value it, or you have more value because someone does value it.

You have the same amount of value either way.

But I think young people are not...

It always hurts.

总是很痛。

We talked about breakups earlier.

我们之前谈过分手的事。

They always hurt, and especially when you're young and you don't have experience.

But my concern is that they're not getting the experience of kind of sitting with it.

And yes, you want to have your friends support you and all of that, but I think once you start posting about it or once you start kind of vilifying the other person, you're not learning the lesson.

You're not learning how to deal with loss.

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In your adult clients, how much of the struggle that you hear about in terms of romantic relationships relates to, again, online aspects like apps and things like that?

Do you think they facilitated things or made relationships more challenging?

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Well, I think what the apps do is there's a phenomenon that Barry Schwartz talks about in his book, "The Paradox of Choice," and it's the idea that the more choice we have, the less happy we are.

So you need some choice, but it's kind of like think of like a fishbowl, an aquarium, and an ocean.

Fishbowl is not enough choice, just too constrained.

Ocean, too much choice.

海洋，选择太多。

You're like, "Yeah, there's no direction.

Oh my gosh." The aquarium is perfect.

哦天哪。”水族馆很完美。

It's a certain amount of choice, but it's manageable.

You don't get flooded.

你不会被淹没。

You don't get overwhelmed.

So they did these experiments where you'd be able to test out, like we have this new jam, and we have 10 different flavors, and which one do you like best and which one are you going to pick?

People would get so overwhelmed they didn't even want to try them.

They're like, "It's too much." Or, "We have two flavors.

Which one do you like better?" Right?

Which one do you like better?"正确的？

Manageable.

易于管理。

So there are people who are what we call satisficers and people who are maximizers.

So satisficers-- Well, let me tell you about maximizers first.

Maximizers are people, let's say you want to buy a sweater.

Okay?

好的？

You go into the store, you find a sweater that you like.

It's the right material, it's the right price, it fits you well, it's the right color.

It's good.

很好。

Great.

伟大的。

The maximizer says, "But maybe I can find something better.

So I'm going to take that sweater, I'm going to put it on the bottom of the pile so that nobody buys it.

I'm going to go to the store next door, and I'm going to see if they have something better." Maybe something's on sale.

Maybe it's slightly higher-end material, whatever it is, right?

But they keep going to stores, and they keep doing this, and then they think, "Oh, well, I found the greatest sweater ever, and I'm going to get that one." Guess what?

But they keep going to stores, and they keep doing this, and then they think, "Oh, well, I found the greatest sweater ever, and I'm going to get that one."你猜怎么着？

They are less satisfied with that purchase than the person who, the satisficer, who would've bought that first sweater in that first store and would've been super happy with that sweater.

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's all opportunity cost for them.

这对他们来说都是机会成本。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Okay.

好的。

Because all of the energy, the emotional and cognitive energy that went into maximizing something, for what kind of benefit?

Like what percent benefit?

比如收益百分比是多少？

Not much, compared to the amount of energy that they spent trying to maximize.

They're never satisfied because even when they get that great product, something better is going to come out.

There's going to be a new color that comes out like two weeks later that was in none of the stores.

So you're always kind of looking over, if you're a maximizer, you're always kind of looking over your shoulder for like, what if something better is out there?

In dating, that's what the apps are like.

在约会方面，应用程序就是这样的。

You go out with someone, you have a good time.

你和某人出去，你玩得很开心。

You think, "Well, no butterflies, no sparks.

你想，“好吧，没有蝴蝶，就没有火花。

Pretty good time, but I don't know.

很好的时光，但我不知道。

I can go back on the apps." You go back on the apps, look at all the people there.

我可以重新使用应用程序。” You go back on the apps, look at all the people there.

Maybe they're better on this dimension or that dimension, and so what it does is it turns everyone into maximizers because there's an illusion of choice.

Like, not everybody you see is going to be better, and again, we don't get the à la carte option with people, so there'll be different dimensions in which people are more aligned with what you're looking for.

But no one's going to be like perfect, right?

但没有人会是完美的，对吧？

So why are we looking for perfection?

那么我们为什么要追求完美呢？

Why don't we look for-- And by the way, the satisficers are not settling.

This isn't about like, "Eh, I'll just settle for something." It's like, that sweater was great.

This isn't about like, "Eh, I'll just settle for something."就像，那件毛衣很棒。

You liked everything about it.

你喜欢它的一切。

You don't need to look for anything more.

您不需要再寻找任何东西。

Will there be, if you pick a partner, will there be someone more attractive?

Of course.

当然。

Will there be someone less attractive?

会不会有一个人魅力较小？

Of course.

当然。

Right?

正确的？

And by the way, if we treat dating like shopping, we forget that in shopping, we're the choosers, but in dating, someone has to choose us, too.

And we, by the way, are not perfect.

顺便说一句，我们并不完美。

So an exercise that I like to do with clients is I want you to write down all the reasons that it would be difficult to date you.

因此，我喜欢与客户一起做的一个练习是，我希望你写下所有难以与你约会的原因。

So instead of making a list of all the qualities you want in a partner, like the partner has to be this, they have to be that, they have to have these interests, they have to have this amount of ambition.

They have to look a certain way.

他们必须以某种方式看待。

They have to have these interests, whatever it is.

I want you to write down everything that would make it difficult-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What a great exercise

多么棒的锻炼啊

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

...

to be with you.

和你在一起。

And some people, it's kind of like in a job interview when they say, "What are your weaknesses?" And we tend to say things that sound positive.

有些人，就像在工作面试中一样，他们会问：“你的弱点是什么？”我们倾向于说一些听起来积极的话。

Like, "My weakness is that I work too hard, that I'm too dedicated, that I can't let go."

就像，“我的弱点是我工作太努力，我太专注，我不能放手。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This is a non-answer.

这是一个没有答案的问题。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

It's a non-- Right.

这是一个非——权利。

So you have to be scrupulously honest with yourself.

所以你必须对自己非常诚实。

So what makes it hard to be with you?

那么是什么让和你在一起变得困难呢？

And if you're really honest with yourself, suddenly you're less of a maximizer, right?

如果你真的对自己诚实，你就会突然不再是一个最大化者，对吗？

Because suddenly you're like, "Oh, someone is thinking about the things that-- They're looking at me holistically as well." And overall, I'm a pretty good package, but there are things that maybe they could maximize if they really wanted to, but then they're going to have to give up some other qualities that I have that the other person might not have.

因为突然你会想，“哦，有人在思考这些事情——他们也在整体地看待我。” And overall, I'm a pretty good package, but there are things that maybe they could maximize if they really wanted to, but then they're going to have to give up some other qualities that I have that the other person might not have.

So I think it's really important not to think about dating as shopping, and I think that people who grew up on apps tend to treat dating like shopping, and they don't sit there and make the list of, "Oh, I can be this way, and that makes it hard for someone to be with me." And you could name a million reasons.

Oh, and by the way, I tell them that for all the traits you're looking for, whatever that number is, because they tend to have a lot, right?

哦，顺便说一句，我告诉他们，对于你正在寻找的所有特征，无论这个数字是多少，因为他们往往有很多，对吗？

It's not just like, "I need these three things." It's like, "I need these 20 things."

这不仅仅是“我需要这三样东西”。就像，“我需要这 20 样东西。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The list.

名单。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right?

对吗？

The list.

名单。

So I said, for every quality that you're looking for, whatever number that is, if it's 20, you need to name 20 things that make it hard to be with you.

So it can't be like there are two things that make it hard to be with you, but you have a list of 20 things that you want.

所以不可能有两件事让和你在一起变得困难，但你有一个你想要的 20 件事的清单。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Do you think that after people make that list that they might take a look at that list and make some effort to reduce or eliminate some things from that list?

Is that good self-work?

这样自力更生好吗？

Like, if somebody is super rigid about punctuality, anyone that knows me, clearly that's not me.

就像，如果有人对守时非常严格，那么任何认识我的人，显然都不是我。

I know some people that are so rigid about that.

我知道有些人对此非常严格。

Let's say someone identifies that as one of the things that can be really difficult.

假设有人认为这是一件非常困难的事情。

Like, they get really upset if somebody's five minutes late.

比如，如果有人迟到五分钟，他们会非常生气。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I've interacted with these people.

我和这些人有过互动。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You're very difficult to be around.

你很难在身边。

As an academic, everything starts 10 minutes late, and we end late.

作为一名学者，一切都晚了10分钟开始，我们也晚了10分钟结束。

That's how it works.

这就是它的工作原理。

But should they try to resolve that or reduce that feature, or should they look at the list and say, "You know what?

但他们是否应该尝试解决这个问题或减少该功能，或者他们应该查看列表并说：“你知道吗？

I'm not going to change that.

我不会改变这一点。

I mean, this thing, well, I should probably change that." What else can the list do for people?

我的意思是，这件事，嗯，我可能应该改变它。”该清单还能为人们做什么？

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Okay.

好的。

So relationships are like cement.

所以关系就像水泥一样。

So when you're first putting down the cement, it's wet and it's malleable.

因此，当您第一次铺设水泥时，它是湿的并且具有延展性。

When it dries, it's very hard, so then now you have to dig it up.

当它干燥时，它非常坚硬，所以现在你必须把它挖出来。

So let's say that punctuality is really important for someone.

因此，我们可以说，守时对于某人来说确实很重要。

And they think, well, I don't want to rock the boat.

他们认为，好吧，我不想破坏现状。

It's the beginning of the relationship, so yeah, this person comes late all the time, but I'm going to say nothing about it, and I'm going to be cool with that, even though I'm not, and I'm sitting there seething every time they come late, right?

And it's like in the first three months of a relationship, I think it was Chris Rock who said this, in the first three months of a relationship, you're not you, you're the ambassador of you.

So sometimes people who really are not punctual will be punctual, and then they'll change.

所以有时候真正不守时的人会守时，然后他们就会改变。

That's not what I'm talking about.

我说的不是这个。

I'm talking about someone who, they're just not a punctual person like you're saying you are.

我说的是这样的人，他们不像你所说的那样是一个准时的人。

So if you're dating someone and that person is telling themselves, "I'm not going to bring it up.

I don't want to rock the boat.

我不想惹事生非。

It's early in the relationship." The cement is wet.

It's early in the relationship."水泥是湿的。

This is when you need to bring it up.

Because if you don't, what happens is it's like six months down the line, the person is like, "I can't believe you're late.

You're always late.

你总是迟到。

You don't prioritize me." The person's like, "This is the first I'm hearing about this." The person has had, A, no opportunity to change it if they want to, but B, no opportunity to explain.

You don't prioritize me."这个人会说，“这是我第一次听说这个。”这个人有，A，没有机会改变它，如果他们想的话，但是B，没有机会解释。

So it might be that, as happened with one of my therapy clients, the person was always late, but it was because he was trying to please her because she wanted to have dinner.

He knew that she liked to eat on the earlier side.

他知道她喜欢吃早点的。

He worked really late, so he was trying to get his work done and get there, and he was always late because he was trying to be there when she wanted to have dinner.

So he said, "I'm late because I do prioritize you.

所以他说：“我迟到了，因为我确实优先考虑你。

I'm actually leaving work early to be with you, but I should've just said I can't be here at this time.

事实上我要早点下班去陪你，但我应该说我现在不能在这儿。

That's what I should've said, and I was worried you would get mad because it would be too late for you." So you see the assumption that she made was, you don't care about me.

这就是我应该说的，我担心你会生气，因为对你来说已经太晚了。”所以你看她做出的假设是，你不关心我。

I'm not important to you.

Your work is more important.

And he's saying, "No, I actually was leaving work to be with you, and I still couldn't get there on time, so we need to figure out how to work this out.

Can we have dinner later?

Because I'm just going to be late if we do it earlier, and what can we work out?" So that's an example of if you just bring it up early, you don't build up all these stories about the other person.

因为如果我们早点做就会迟到，我们能解决什么问题呢？”所以这是一个例子，如果你早点提出来，你就不会编造所有关于对方的故事。

This person doesn't care.

这个人不在乎。

They don't prioritize me, whatever the story is that you're making about that person.

他们不会优先考虑我，无论你对那个人的故事是什么。

And you have a chance to see, is the person willing to do something about it?

你有机会看看这个人是否愿意为此采取行动？

Or if they're not, are you willing to be flexible and say, you know what, this person, they just run late, and I like so many other things about them, and I'm going to adjust to the fact that this is one thing that in a perfect world I would like them to be more punctual, but there's so many great things that this is one thing that I'm going to adjust to.

或者如果他们不准时，你是否愿意灵活地说，你知道吗，这个人，他们只是迟到了，我喜欢他们的很多其他方面，我将适应这样一个事实，即在完美的世界中，我希望他们更加准时，但有很多伟大的事情，这是我要适应的一件事。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Weaving this with what we were talking about earlier about gut sense-

将其与我们之前讨论的有关直觉的内容编织起来-

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

and the validity or lack of validity of gut sense.

以及直觉的有效性或缺乏有效性。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I certainly have had the experience, and I know many other people have, that after a relationship ends or when it's ending, they think back and they go, there was that thing at the beginning- ...

and I knew it then-

我当时就知道了——

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

but I pushed it aside.

但我把它放在一边。

Is that just a story we tell ourselves?

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

I think that the most important question to ask yourself after you go on a first date or a second date or a third date is, how do I feel when I'm with this person?

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Because all the other stuff is just like a cognitive exercise, right?

因为所有其他的东西就像认知练习，对吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

So one of my clients, she said to herself, she was in her early 30s, and she said, "I want to have kids with a partner.

我的一位客户对自己说，她才 30 岁出头，她说：“我想和伴侣生孩子。

I'm 31 years old.

我今年31岁了。

I don't want to date anyone.

I'll date someone who's divorced, but I won't date someone who has kids." She met someone online.

我会和离婚的人约会，但不会和有孩子的人约会。”她在网上认识了一个人。

It didn't have the kid question in that particular app that she was using.

她使用的那个特定应用程序中没有儿童问题。

She went to meet him on the first date.

She's having such a good time, and it comes up that he has a kid.

她玩得很开心，结果他有了孩子。

And she was having such a good time that she really debated like, should I go out with him again?

她玩得很开心，以至于她真的在争论，我应该再和他出去吗？

Should I not go out with him again?

我不应该再和他出去吗？

This is not what I want.

这不是我想要的。

I don't want to deal with that.

我不想处理这个。

It's too messy, and it's not what I imagined.

If she had known on that dating app, it had asked if he had kids and he had put that, she would never have met him.

如果她知道那个约会应用程序问他是否有孩子并且他这么说了，她就永远不会遇见他。

That is her husband.

那是她的丈夫。

She is so happy.

她很高兴。

They've been married now for 15 years.

They have kids together.

他们有孩子在一起。

They have the other kid.

他们还有另一个孩子。

She's so happy.

她很高兴。

So I think that when we make that list, that you said, should you take things off the list?

所以我认为，当我们列出你所说的清单时，你应该把一些东西从清单上删除吗？

I think that you need to have flexibility about things that may not matter, but you have to be very inflexible about the things that do matter.

我认为你需要对那些可能不重要的事情保持灵活性，但对重要的事情你必须非常不灵活。

So character qualities, they matter.

所以性格品质很重要。

Values that align, that matters.

价值观一致，这一点很重要。

So those are things that don't be flexible on that.

所以这些都是不灵活的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So I just want to make sure I understand.

So we're talking about two different lists here.

One is a list about features about the other person.

其中一个是关于另一个人的特征的列表。

This is what we hear as the list.

这就是我们听到的列表。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The number of times that friends are like, "You have to make a list." I'll never get around to making a list.

朋友们说“你必须列一个清单”的次数。我永远不会抽出时间去列一个清单。

But I like this other list that you described, which is all the things about ourselves that would make us difficult to be with.

但我喜欢你所描述的另一个清单，它是关于我们自己的所有会让我们难以相处的事情。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Which list or both do we need to have rigidity versus flexibility on?

我们需要在哪一个清单上或两者上都保持刚性和灵活性？

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

I'm saying that when we think of that list, and by the way, a lot of people don't sit there and write a list, but they have it in their head.

我是说，当我们想到这个清单时，顺便说一句，很多人不会坐在那里写一个清单，而是把它记在脑子里。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

There's this process of I know what I'm looking for, whatever.

不管怎样，我知道我在寻找什么，这是一个过程。

Some people say, like, "I know it when I see it." But there's really a list in there-

有些人会说，“我一看到就知道了”。 But there's really a list in there-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

毫米

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

...

because you know what you're looking for and it matches this list in your head.

因为您知道自己在寻找什么，并且它与您脑海中的列表相匹配。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

So on that list, I'm saying you need to put more things like character qualities.

所以在这个清单上，我是说你需要添加更多的东西，比如性格品质。

Are they honest?

他们诚实吗？

Are they reliable?

他们可靠吗？

Can I trust them?

我可以相信他们吗？

Do we have the same vision of the kind of life that we want to lead?

我们对自己想要过的生活有同样的愿景吗？

Where are we aligned on those important things?

Because those things are hard to bridge those gaps.

因为这些事情很难弥合这些差距。

They're just going to keep coming up and be very difficult to deal with.

他们只会不断出现并且很难对付。

Things like, do we have to have all the same interests?

比如，我们必须有相同的兴趣吗？

No. Does the person have kids or not?

否。此人是否有孩子？

Well, that may not be the ideal choice, but look what happened to this other person.

好吧，这可能不是理想的选择，但看看另一个人发生了什么。

You don't know.

你不知道。

I think that question that I'm going back to of, how does this person make me feel, if the character qualities are there.

我认为我要回到的问题是，如果这个人的性格品质存在的话，他会让我感觉如何。

Because sometimes people who don't have the character qualities that you want are very charming, and they can make you feel great.

因为有时候不具备你想要的性格品质的人却非常有魅力，他们能让你感觉很棒。

But if they have the character qualities, do I feel calm around this person?

但如果他们有这些品质，我在这个人身边会感到平静吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Going back to this idea of peace and calm.

回到和平与平静的想法。

I like this idea somebody had mentioned that I love this metaphor of being able to bring your rough drafts to the other person, meaning that you don't have to be on all the time with this person, that you can bring sort of the rough draft of yourself, of this idea of your kind of imperfect draft, and they collaborate with you on that.

我喜欢这个想法，有人提到我喜欢这个比喻，能够把你的草稿带给别人，这意味着你不必一直和这个人在一起，你可以带来你自己的草稿，你的不完美草稿的想法，他们会在这方面与你合作。

And I think that's so beautiful, right?

我觉得那太美了，对吧？

What it means is you can be yourself.

这意味着你可以做你自己。

And yourself doesn't mean I can act in any way I want, I can have no boundaries, I can be abusive.

而你自己并不意味着我可以以任何我想要的方式行事，我可以没有界限，我可以虐待。

No, that's not the rough draft.

不，这不是草稿。

But it's kind of like I am working this through.

但这有点像我正在解决这个问题。

I'm trying to understand this.

我正在尝试理解这一点。

I'm not perfect.

我并不完美。

Sometimes I will make mistakes.

有时我会犯错误。

And can you be comfortable enough around each other to hold yourself accountable but still feel loved by the other person?

你们能在彼此相处时感到足够自在，让自己对自己负责，但仍然感到被对方爱着吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love, love, love the criteria, for lack of a better word, of how do I feel when I'm around this person.

我爱、爱、爱这个标准，因为找不到更好的词来形容当我在这个人身边时我的感受。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Peace being an anchor point or a place to look for.

和平是一个锚点或一个寻找的地方。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

And when I say how, I mean, do you feel calm?

当我说如何时，我的意思是，你感到平静吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Do you feel content?

你感到满足吗？

And so calmness is different from sort of the activation.

因此，平静与激活是不同的。

Contentment is different from out-of-your-mind happy.

知足与疯狂的快乐不同。

Of course, in the beginning, and hopefully throughout the relationship, there will be times when you feel this incredible energy around happiness and joy and being around the other person.

当然，在开始时，希望在整个关系中，有时你会感受到围绕着幸福和快乐以及与他人在一起的令人难以置信的能量。

But most of the time, what you're going to feel around your partner is a sense of safety, a safe place to land, contentment.

但大多数时候，你在伴侣身边感受到的是一种安全感、一个安全的落脚点和满足感。

I enjoy this person's sense of humor.

我喜欢这个人的幽默感。

I enjoy sitting with them, even through our silences.

我喜欢和他们坐在一起，即使我们保持沉默。

I enjoy sitting on the couch and watching a show with them.

我喜欢坐在沙发上和他们一起看节目。

I enjoy basically doing anything with them just because I like their presence.

我基本上喜欢和他们一起做任何事情，只是因为我喜欢他们的存在。

That's what I mean.

这就是我的意思。

Does their presence feel additive to you?

他们的存在对你来说有好处吗？

Does it feel like you just are happier with their presence than you would be without their presence?

你是否觉得他们的存在比没有他们的存在更快乐？

And sometimes people feel like, "Oh, we have such a strong relationship.

有时人们会觉得，“哦，我们的关系如此牢固。

We're so drawn to each other." But what you're drawn to is when you're with each other, the presence is volatile.

我们是如此被彼此吸引。”但吸引你的是，当你们在一起时，彼此的存在是不稳定的。

It's either the high highs and the low lows.

要么是高点，要么是低点。

I'm talking about that sense of contentment just being in the other person's presence, the dailiness of it.

我说的是那种每天都在对方面前的满足感。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There's so much made of these love languages.

这些爱的语言有很多。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Like they're acts of service, and I like gifts, all that kind of stuff.

就像它们是服务行为一样，我喜欢礼物，诸如此类的东西。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I've heard it said, "What's your love language?" And someone may say, "All of them." That person was me.

我听人说：“你的爱情语言是什么？”有人可能会说：“全部。”那个人就是我。

All of them.

所有的人。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Who doesn't like all of those?

谁不喜欢所有这些？

Both, I like to think I offer them, too.

我想我也提供这两者。

Who doesn't like all of those things?

谁不喜欢所有这些东西？

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But I realize that some people place more value on certain gestures and expressions.

但我意识到有些人更看重某些手势和表情。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I think that's all fine and good.

我认为这一切都很好。

What I love about what you're saying, however, is that it's more of like a, now we're sounding woo, but it's more of an energetic match.

然而，我喜欢你所说的是，它更像是，现在我们听起来很求爱，但它更像是一场充满活力的比赛。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This feeling of safety.

这种安全感。

The word peace to me just feels like holds so much value these days.

如今，“和平”这个词对我来说意义重大。

I feel like the two things that I've come to really value more and more are peace and self-respect.

我觉得我越来越重视的两件事是和平和自尊。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because it's hard to have peace without self-respect.

因为没有自尊就很难有平安。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Certainly hard to have self-respect without peace.

没有和平，当然很难有自尊。

Now, sometimes lack of peace can be from external things, but then we have to ask ourselves, do we have any control over these external things?

现在，有时候缺乏平安可能是来自于外在的事物，但我们必须问自己，我们对这些外在的事物有控制能力吗？

Yeah.

是的。

I'm curious what your reflections are on an energy match.

我很好奇你对能量匹配有何看法。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

So instead of love languages, I look at it as understanding each other's operating instructions.

所以我认为与其说是爱的语言，不如说是理解彼此的操作指令。

We don't get a manual, like when you buy a car or a piece of technology, right?

我们没有手册，就像您购买汽车或一项技术时一样，对吗？

It comes with operating instructions, so you know exactly how it works, like don't push this button, do push this button.

它附带操作说明，因此您可以确切地知道它是如何工作的，例如不要按此按钮，请按此按钮。

This makes it run more smoothly.

这使得它运行更加顺畅。

This will destroy it.

这会毁掉它。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right?

对吗？

So you understand those things.

所以你明白这些事情了。

So we don't know that about the other person.

所以我们不知道对方的情况。

We make so many assumptions.

我们做了很多假设。

If this person is coming to me to talk about this, here's what I would want in that situation.

如果这个人来找我谈论这件事，这就是我在这种情况下想要的。

So we do that, and the person's like, "No, no, no. I came to talk to you about it.

所以我们这样做了，那个人就像，“不，不，不。我是来和你谈谈这件事的。

I just wanted to vent.

我只是想发泄一下。

I didn't come for you to fix it." Right?

我不是来找你解决问题的。”正确的？

But maybe you like it when people fix it.

但也许你喜欢人们修复它。

So you have to learn the other person's operating instructions.

所以你要学习别人的操作说明。

So we talk about this idea of love languages.

所以我们谈论爱语言这个想法。

People like all those things, as you said.

正如你所说，人们喜欢所有这些东西。

Operating instructions is something so much deeper and more intimate, which is, I understand that being late means this to you, right?

操作说明是更深刻、更亲密的东西，也就是说，我明白迟到对你来说意味着这个，对吧？

I understand that it helps you when you're anxious if my voice gets quieter instead of, I understand that you need a hug in this moment.

我明白，当你焦虑时，如果我的声音变得小一点，这会对你有所帮助，而不是，我明白你此时需要一个拥抱。

I understand that when we're going on a trip, you like to pack this way, and I like to pack this way, and let's do it our own ways, right?

我理解，我们去旅行的时候，你喜欢这样收拾，我也喜欢这样收拾，我们各走各的吧？

Or just like, I understand these things about you, and you understand these things about me, and so if we understand them, we know how the other person operates, and we're going to operate ourselves with an eye toward that.

或者就像，我理解你的这些事情，你也理解我的这些事情，所以如果我们理解它们，我们就知道对方是如何运作的，我们也会以此为中心来运作自己。

And there's something so loving About understanding somebody's operating instructions and honoring them.

理解某人的操作说明并尊重他们是一件非常有爱的事情。

And we don't try to figure out the other person.

我们不会试图去了解对方。

We try to think, like, "Why are they acting that way?" We don't get curious and ask, "Hey, why are you acting that way?

我们试着思考，“他们为什么要那样做？”我们不会好奇地问：“嘿，你为什么这么做？

What's going on?"

发生什么事了？”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

And you learn then, oh, well, this is why.

然后你就会知道，哦，好吧，这就是原因。

And then now you know that in those situations, here's how they can go more smoothly.

现在您知道了，在这些情况下，可以通过以下方法让事情进展得更顺利。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I rarely ask guests on this podcast to editorialize about other guests, but here it feels appropriate.

我很少要求这个播客上的嘉宾对其他嘉宾发表评论，但在这里感觉很合适。

Bill Eddy was on this podcast.

比尔·艾迪参加了这个播客。

He's a therapist and lawyer, and he wrote the book, I think it was "Five Types of People That Will Ruin Your Life."

他是一名治疗师和律师，他写了这本书，我认为这是《会毁掉你生活的五种人》。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And one of the cardinal features of a person that he claimed will ruin your life is somebody, one of the early warning signs, let's not say cardinal features, but is somebody who has a story about their past failures that's always about how they were wronged by somebody else.

他声称会毁掉你生活的人的主要特征之一是某人，早期预警信号之一，我们不说主要特征，而是一个有关于他们过去失败的故事的人，这些故事总是关于他们如何被别人冤枉。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Like the victim stance.

就像受害者的立场一样。

There's no other word for it.

没有其他词可以形容它。

People who are constantly talking about how they were a victim of somebody else.

人们不断地谈论他们如何成为别人的受害者。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

There is a word for it.

有一个词可以形容它。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Hmm.

嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

It's called help-rejecting complainers.

这就是所谓的“拒绝帮助的抱怨者”。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Help-rejecting complainers.

拒绝帮助的抱怨者。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

So a help-rejecting complainer is a person who is always telling you, "This went wrong, and it was somebody else's fault," and they're seemingly coming to you for advice or guidance.

因此，拒绝帮助的抱怨者是一个总是告诉你“出了问题，这是别人的错”的人，他们似乎是来向你寻求建议或指导的。

And no matter what you say, like, "How about this?" Or, "Have you tried this?" Or, "Have you thought about this?" "No, that won't work because..."

不管你说什么，比如，“这个怎么样？”或者，“你试过这个吗？”或者，“你考虑过这个问题吗？” “不，那行不通，因为……”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

"No, I've tried that.

“不，我已经尝试过了。

That's not going to help.

那没有帮助。

No, because people are like this, and that won't help." So they don't actually want help.

不，因为人就是这样，那是没有帮助的。”所以他们实际上并不需要帮助。

It serves them in some way to complain and be the victim and be wronged.

在某种程度上，抱怨、成为受害者、受到委屈对他们来说是有好处的。

And so it's almost like that makes them feel better.

所以这几乎让他们感觉更好。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

They don't want to look at themselves.

他们不想看自己。

They don't want to look at their role in things.

他们不想审视自己在事物中的角色。

So beware of help-rejecting complainers because they're always going to come to you, and you're going to, at first, feel bad for them.

所以要小心那些拒绝帮助的抱怨者，因为他们总是会来找你，而你一开始会为他们感到难过。

You're going to be like, "Wow, they've really had a hard time.

你会说，“哇，他们真的很难过。

Wow.

哇。

I wonder if I could help them this way." And then you start to realize they don't want help.

我想知道我是否可以通过这种方式帮助他们。”然后你开始意识到他们不需要帮助。

They don't want to be helped.

他们不想被帮助。

They will reject any help that comes their way because if they get help, they can't complain anymore.

他们会拒绝任何向他们提供的帮助，因为如果他们得到帮助，他们就不能再抱怨了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm guessing you see this sometimes in therapy.

我猜你有时在治疗中会看到这种情况。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

And in the world.

而在世间。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yes, in the world.

是的，在世界上。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We've been making a fair number of assumptions about relationship structure.

我们已经对关系结构做出了相当多的假设。

There are so many different permutations these days that we don't have to explore them all, but do you think that some people are just not well-suited for romantic relationships?

如今有如此多不同的排列，我们不必一一探索，但你是否认为有些人不适合恋爱关系？

I've known a few people in my lifetime, a former advisor who, he passed away, as I mentioned earlier, but who had tried romantic relationships and decided they weren't for him.

我一生中认识一些人，一位前顾问，他去世了，正如我之前提到的，但他尝试过恋爱关系，但认为他们不适合他。

Most everyone I know in my life is either partnered or, yeah, pretty much.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Thank goodness, happily so.

谢天谢地，如此幸福。

But are there people for whom they just opt out of the game for reasons that are healthy as opposed to fear of rejection or otherwise?

但是否有人会因为健康原因而不是害怕拒绝或其他原因而选择退出游戏呢？

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

I think that we are wired to want to love and be loved, whatever that means.

我认为我们生来就想要爱和被爱，无论这意味着什么。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

There's all kinds of love.

各种各样的爱都有。

There's all kinds of ways to love.

爱的方式有很多种。

I think that people don't know how to love and be loved if they haven't seen it.

我想，人们如果没有亲眼目睹，就不知道如何去爱和被爱。

So generally, you learn that because you've had it modeled for you, or if you haven't had it modeled for you, you, by trial and error, start to learn these things.

所以一般来说，你会了解到，因为你已经为你建模了，或者如果你还没有为你建模，那么你通过反复试验，开始学习这些东西。

Maybe you go to therapy, and you learn more about it.

也许你去接受治疗，并且你会了解更多。

But I think no matter what people come to therapy for, no matter what we call the presenting problem, they're coming because whatever they want to say it is, deep down, something got kind of ruptured in the love or being loved area of their life.

但我认为，无论人们来寻求治疗的目的是什么，无论我们所说的出现的问题是什么，他们来是因为无论他们想说的是，在内心深处，他们生活中的爱或被爱的领域中有些东西破裂了。

And really, that's the core of it, and we have to solve that problem so that the problem they came in for-- It's like you're dealing with content, which is like, here's the problem, and process, which is what's going on underneath.

实际上，这就是它的核心，我们必须解决这个问题，以便他们解决问题——就像你正在处理内容，这就是问题和过程，这就是下面发生的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

And if we can solve the process, then you solve content in multiple areas of your life.

如果我们能够解决这个过程，那么你就能解决生活中多个领域的内容。

It's not just this one problem that you came in with, but generally, if you learn at the core what the issue is that gets in the kind of love or be loved area, you learn how to navigate through the world differently in your professional life, in your romantic life, in your platonic friendship life, in your family life.

这不仅仅是你遇到的这个问题，而且一般来说，如果你从根本上了解了爱或被爱领域的问题是什么，你就会学会如何在你的职业生活、浪漫生活、柏拉图式友谊生活和家庭生活中以不同的方式穿越世界。

So therapy isn't just about solving that one discrete problem.

因此，治疗不仅仅是解决一个离散的问题。

Sometimes it is, but many times it's about if we can get to the deeper process issue, then you will solve so many different problems simultaneously.

有时是这样，但很多时候，问题在于我们是否能够解决更深层次的流程问题，然后您将同时解决许多不同的问题。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Throughout today's conversation, I feel like what seems to be in contrast is our stories about ourselves and other people and life-

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

versus just really being present.

而不是仅仅真正存在。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This image of the Teflon pan is really looping in my head because this idea that a positive thing happens, it slips right off.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Negative thing sticks.

负面的东西会粘住。

What does that mean?

这意味着什么？

It's like we create a story about the negative thing and that the story about the positive thing was a very brief-

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

story.

故事。

It was like one of those three-sentence poems or something, and then it's gone.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Versus presence, like the more presence we can bring to something, the more positive, meaningful experience we can extract from it.

I really believe this.

我真的相信这一点。

I learned this in science, actually, because I had an absolutely spectacular neuroanatomy professor when I was an undergraduate, and he said, "When you look down the microscope, if you're looking for something, you'll find it, but you're going to miss all this context of the inputs to that structure, and you lose the pattern recognition that's going to serve you going forward."

事实上，我是在科学中学到这一点的，因为当我还是一名本科生时，我有一位非常出色的神经解剖学教授，他说，“当你俯视显微镜时，如果你在寻找某些东西，你会找到它，但你会错过该结构输入的所有背景，并且你会失去为你前进提供服务的模式识别。”

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So I learned I had so much time back then.

所以我知道那时我有很多时间。

I would just sit at night as a graduate student after I left my undergrad and went on to a lab, and I would just stare at brain tissue.

And you learn that And about it in conscious and unconscious ways.

And then later when you're doing an experiment, you see things like, oh, there's a deficit here.

There's a real effect here.

这里确实有效果。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And you learn that through presence, you're experiencing things so much differently than if you go looking for something.

In science, if you go looking for something-

在科学中，如果你去寻找一些东西——

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

it's actually bad science.

这实际上是糟糕的科学。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I've tried to transport that onto relationship in some ways.

Like in relation to things and people and dogs and all the things in life, if you're really present, like the story's writing itself, but you're not scripting it out.

就像与事物、人、狗以及生活中所有事物的关系一样，如果你真的在场，就像故事本身一样，但你并不是把它写出来。

I don't think I have a language for this.

我想我没有语言可以表达这个。

Rick Rubin's talked a little bit about this in his book, "The Creative Act." We need to be on the front end of the vehicle, experiencing space and time as it's happening, as opposed to sitting next to it or in it and kind of creating a narrative about what's happening around us.

Rick Rubin's talked a little bit about this in his book, "The Creative Act."我们需要站在车辆的前端，体验正在发生的空间和时间，而不是坐在车辆旁边或车内，对我们周围发生的事情进行叙述。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Does that make sense?

这有道理吗？

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right.

对。

So most of us, all of us, myself included, you, all of us, we're unreliable narrators because we're only telling the story through our own lens.

And so it's really important for people to kind of be expansive about what the story might be about themselves.

Like someone might have a story, "I'm unlovable," or, "I can't trust anyone," or, "Nothing will ever work out for me." That's their story that they're carrying around from childhood or from some experience that they had in life, and they don't realize that they're carrying that story around.

就像有人可能有一个故事，“我不可爱”，或者“我不能相信任何人”，或者“我永远不会有结果”。这是他们从童年或生活中的一些经历中流传下来的故事，但他们没有意识到他们正在传播这个故事。

So everything that they experience is viewed through that lens.

所以他们经历的一切都是通过这个镜头来看待的。

And so of course, they're not finding people they trust because their whole worldview is, "I can't trust anyone," even though the person might be trustworthy.

当然，他们找不到自己信任的人，因为他们的整个世界观是“我不能信任任何人”，即使这个人可能值得信任。

Or they feel unlovable, so of course, they can't take in the love that they're getting because, again, what are they paying attention to?

或者他们觉得不可爱，所以当然，他们无法接受他们所得到的爱，因为，再说一次，他们在关注什么？

This predominant storyline.

这个主要的故事情节。

So they need to rewrite the story.

所以他们需要重写这个故事。

I created this workbook that's a step-by-step guide.

我创建了这本分步指南工作簿。

I'm not sort of doing this to plug the workbook, I'm saying it's a very methodical process.

我这样做并不是为了插入工作簿，我是说这是一个非常有条理的过程。

You have to break down the story, and my background is that I come from a writing background.

你必须分解这个故事，而我的背景是我来自写作背景。

So I feel like I'm almost like an editor in the therapy room when people come in and they bring this story, and my job is to help them edit the story so that this faulty narrative that was never true, or whoever told them that story, whether they explicitly said, "You're not lovable," or showed them through their actions that they then felt not lovable, that story was told by another narrator.

所以我觉得我几乎就像治疗室里的编辑，当人们进来并带来这个故事时，我的工作就是帮助他们编辑这个故事，这样这个错误的叙述就不是真的，或者无论是谁告诉他们这个故事，无论他们明确地说，“你不可爱”，还是通过他们的行为向他们表明他们随后感到不可爱，那个故事是由另一个叙述者讲述的。

So that narrator was unreliable, gave you this story that now you take as gospel, and you move through life with that story.

所以那个叙述者是不可靠的，给了你这个故事，现在你把它当作福音，你带着这个故事度过一生。

So let's examine that story, and can we look for counter examples of when that story is not true?

那么，让我们研究一下这个故事，我们能否寻找一下这个故事何时不真实的反例？

Because generally, there are stories of you being lovable.

因为一般来说，都有关于你可爱的故事。

There are stories of people being trustworthy.

有一些关于人们值得信赖的故事。

There are stories of things working out for you.

有一些适合您的故事。

So we have to really rewrite those narratives and say, what is true, and what is an artifact of somebody else's story that we're carrying around?

因此，我们必须真正重写这些叙述，并说，什么是真实的，什么是我们随身携带的别人故事的产物？

And why are we writing the next chapter with somebody else's narrative that we never owned anyway?

为什么我们要用我们从未拥有过的别人的叙述来写下一个章节？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

It seems that one of the challenges of being human is unless somebody is a narcissist, where they basically dismiss anything that doesn't make them feel good, in which case, they miss out on so much of life, and everyone can't stand them anyway.

似乎作为人类的挑战之一是，除非有人是自恋者，否则他们基本上会忽略任何让他们感觉不好的东西，在这种情况下，他们会错过很多生活，而且每个人都无法忍受他们。

If you're a permeable person, like you're paying attention to what people say, you're trying to integrate that, you're trying to do better, be better, the hard part is being semipermeable.

如果你是一个具有渗透性的人，就像你关注人们所说的话，你会尝试整合它们，你会尝试做得更好，变得更好，困难的部分是成为半渗透性的。

You have to know what to let in, what to reject, what to accept, what to work on.

你必须知道该放什么、该拒绝什么、该接受什么、该做什么。

It's a challenging thing, this process of being a person in relation to others, right?

成为一个人与他人的关系的过程是一件具有挑战性的事情，对吧？

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Well, right.

嗯，对。

And again, the story.

Think about how much we tell stories about ourselves and other people.

想想我们讲述了多少关于我们自己和他人的故事。

That example I gave you earlier about the person who said, "Well, he doesn't prioritize me because he comes late and work is more important to him." And in fact, he was prioritizing her.

That example I gave you earlier about the person who said, "Well, he doesn't prioritize me because he comes late and work is more important to him."事实上，他优先考虑的是她。

So we tell all kinds of stories, and we make meaning of interactions with people.

所以我们讲述各种各样的故事，我们让与人的互动变得有意义。

And generally, we don't have enough information, and we need to say, can we expand this story?

一般来说，我们没有足够的信息，我们需要说，我们可以扩展这个故事吗？

What would that story look like if I got curious and asked more about it?

如果我好奇并询问更多，这个故事会是什么样子？

Or even just things that happen in our own lives.

或者甚至只是我们自己生活中发生的事情。

Can I examine that story for myself?

我可以亲自检查一下这个故事吗？

Is that the story I want to tell myself about that experience that didn't go the way I wanted, or can I look at it a different way?

这就是我想告诉自己的关于那次经历的故事，但它并没有按照我想要的方式发展，或者我可以以不同的方式看待它吗？

Like, am I a failure, or am I actually growing?

比如，我是一个失败者，还是我真的在成长？

Right?

正确的？

You can look at the same story the same way.

你可以用同样的方式看待同一个故事。

"I'm a failure.

“我是个失败者。

That didn't work out," or, "Oh, that's really interesting.

但这没有成功，”或者，“哦，这真的很有趣。

I learned something really important, and I'm really a courageous person for trying that, and now I learned something." Totally different experiences of the same event.

我学到了一些非常重要的东西，我真的是一个勇敢尝试的人，现在我学到了一些东西。”同一事件的不同经历。

And I think sometimes the way we get to that story in the moment is to look at our senses.

我认为有时我们了解这个故事的方式就是观察我们的感官。

So we have five senses.

所以我们有五种感官。

We don't tend to pay much attention to them.

我们往往不太关注他们。

We just think through everything.

我们只是把一切都想清楚。

So can you say in a moment, right, like even about your partner, when you're upset with your partner.

所以，当你对你的伴侣感到不满时，你能不能马上说，对吧，甚至像谈论你的伴侣一样。

Can you say, with each sense, "Here's one thing I see about my partner that I really like, even though I'm upset about something they just did." Right?

你能用每种感觉说：“我在我的伴侣身上看到了我真正喜欢的一件事，尽管我对他们刚刚做的事情感到不安。”正确的？

"Here's something I hear.

“这是我听到的。

I like the tone of their voice," or, "I like the way they laugh.

我喜欢他们的语气，”或者，“我喜欢他们笑的方式。

I like the way they smell." Whatever it is.

我喜欢它们闻起来的味道。”不管是什么。

"I like the way..." You can just reach out.

“我喜欢这样……”你伸手就可以了。

By the way, touch is so important.

顺便说一下，触摸非常重要。

What I have couples do sometimes when things are getting a little bit escalated in the therapy room is I'll say, "Can you take each other's hands right now?" And it's the last thing they want to do in that moment.

有时，当治疗室里的事情变得有点升级时，我会让夫妻们做的是，我会说：“你们现在可以握住彼此的手吗？”这是他们在那一刻最不想做的事情。

I'll say, "Can you just take each other's hands?" Calmness, right?

我会说：“你们能握住彼此的手吗？”冷静，对吗？

Their nervous system is calming down, and all of a sudden, they feel, oh, yeah, I forgot what that touch feels like, and you feel connected now.

他们的神经系统正在平静下来，突然间，他们感觉，哦，是的，我忘记了那种触摸的感觉，你现在感觉有联系。

So can we use our other senses sometimes when we get really in our head And use it to expand the story and connect, whether it's connecting with yourself.

因此，当我们真正进入头脑时，有时我们可以使用其他感官并用它来扩展故事并建立联系，无论是与您自己联系。

Sometimes, with anxiety, we do that something I can see, hear, taste, touch-

有时，带着焦虑，我们会做一些我能看到、听到、尝到、触摸到的事情——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

...

smell.

气味。

We can do that with a partner, too.

我们也可以与合作伙伴一起这样做。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I feel like the whole landscape around relationships has changed so much in the last 20, 30 years.

我觉得在过去的 20、30 年里，人际关系的整个格局发生了很大的变化。

It seems like in some ways for the better, like there's a lot more discussion about the sorts of things that you're explaining-

在某些方面似乎变得更好了，就像对你正在解释的事情有更多的讨论一样——

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

and better understanding of self, how to show up better, better choice-making, and so on.

以及更好地了解自我、如何更好地表现、更好地做出选择等等。

I was thinking about at the same time, this example you mentioned before of someone in their teens or 20s, a couple will break up, and then somebody's posting all these things about them, that kind of, quote unquote, feedback, because it's not really feedback, it's more signaling and posturing about what they aren't as opposed to what the other person is-

我同时在想，你之前提到的这个例子，一个十几岁或二十多岁的人，一对情侣会分手，然后有人发布关于他们的所有这些事情，那种，引用不引用，反馈，因为这不是真正的反馈，这更多的是关于他们不是什么而不是另一个人是什么的信号和姿态-

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

has got to create pretty detrimental stories in the person that it's about, right?

必须在它所涉及的人身上创造出相当有害的故事，对吗？

Because they have the choice of either believing those things or disbelieving them, but it's not really an opportunity for growth in the same way that sitting down with somebody and saying, "Hey, these were some things that you did well, and here are some things that didn't go well." And I guess, how much of the story for young men and women nowadays, and older, do you think is being written through what we hear about the opposite sex, right?

In the last, I would say 10, 15 years, there hasn't really been a moment of really trying to prop young boys up and men of like, maleness is great.

在过去的 10 年、15 年里，还没有真正尝试过支持年轻男孩和类似的男人，男性气质是伟大的。

That's not something you hear very often.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I certainly understand why there was a need and an effort to balance opportunities, right?

我当然理解为什么需要并努力平衡机会，对吗？

But a lot of young guys grew up hearing that maleness, having a Y chromosome is a bad thing, that testosterone is bad or something like that.

但很多年轻人从小就听说男性、拥有 Y 染色体是一件坏事、睾丸激素是坏事等等。

And I've been asked to comment on this more and more recently in the press, and I only know my experience and what I observe, but you take any group and tell them that they're bad.

That hasn't really worked out well for any group or for society.

这对任何团体或社会来说都没有真正发挥作用。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

When my son was in preschool, there was a shirt that girls would wear, little preschool girls, and it said, "Boys are stupid.

当我儿子上学前班时，有一件女孩们会穿的衬衫，学前班的小女孩，上面写着：“男孩们都很愚蠢。

Let's throw rocks at them." And it was supposed to be somehow girl power, empowering, but you don't empower by putting down another group.

让我们向他们扔石头吧。”它应该是某种女孩的力量，赋予权力，但你不能通过压制另一个群体来赋予权力。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right?

对吗？

You lift up, but you don't bring down.

你举起，但你不放下。

And my son was so confused by that.

我儿子对此感到很困惑。

I remember he was like, "Why?

我记得他当时的反应是：“为什么？

What does that mean?" And can you imagine if some boy showed up at preschool that said, "Girls are stupid.

那是什么意思？”你能想象如果某个男孩出现在幼儿园并说：“女孩们都很愚蠢。

Let's throw rocks at them"?

我们向他们扔石头吧”？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, he'd be in a different preschool pretty quick.

是的，他很快就会去另一所幼儿园。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right.

对。

So I think it's interesting to think about how it became that it's very hard for young men to navigate what does masculinity in a positive way look like.

And they get all kinds of messages.

他们收到各种各样的消息。

All men are bad.

Men should be more like women.

男人应该更像女人。

Men need to be this way or that way.

男人需要这样或那样。

But no, if they are more communicative, then they're weak.

但不，如果他们更善于沟通，那么他们就很弱。

But if they aren't communicative-- There's no kind of right way to be, and I think it's very confusing for young men.

但如果他们不善于交流——就没有正确的方式，我认为这对年轻人来说非常令人困惑。

If a teenager or someone in college wants to kiss a girl on a date, and they don't do it because they don't know what to do.

如果一个青少年或大学生想在约会时亲吻一个女孩，但他们不会这么做，因为他们不知道该怎么做。

Do I need to say, "Can I kiss you?" Right?

我需要说“我可以吻你吗？”正确的？

Which feels a little bit like takes away from the moment.

这感觉有点像是远离了当下。

But at the same time, they don't want to assume that she wants to be kissed, but it seems pretty obvious to him that they're standing out in front of their cars in front of the restaurant, and maybe she wants a good night kiss.

It's just so confusing.

And I think that there's definitely, I think, a positive correction in what we call toxic masculinity, the ways that men didn't really assume the personhood of women.

But I also think that it's gotten to a place where it's so confusing for both young men and young women to understand sort of how can we be with each other, how can we relate to each other, where we won't be criticized, canceled.

We don't know what's right.

Do I put myself out there?

我把自己放在那里吗？

Do I not put myself out there?

我不是把自己摆在那里吗？

Will I get in trouble?

我会遇到麻烦吗？

And so, obviously, it's a good thing that people are having conversations and there's more communication around what is okay, what do you want?

因此，显然，人们进行对话是一件好事，并且围绕什么是可以的、你想要什么进行更多的沟通？

Is this okay?

这样可以吗？

But at a certain level, it becomes people are afraid to do anything.

但到了一定程度，人们就会害怕做任何事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Talk about lack of presence.

谈论缺乏存在感。

It sounds like they have to write the story all the way to the 10 different outcomes for a given action, evaluating if-- Then they're no longer reading the other person's signals.

It sounds incredibly complicated.

听起来非常复杂。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right.

对。

It is very complicated, and I think there's progress, too.

这是非常复杂的，但我认为也有进展。

I think it's much better than having these situations where men just assumed it was okay to do certain things, whether the woman consented or not.

But I also feel like the education that they're getting around this, which again is so complicated because it's positive that they're getting this education, but they don't know what it looks like in practice because even when you think of corporate training and you have to watch those videos, right, and what is okay and what is not okay.

They give the most obvious examples of what is not okay.

他们给出了最明显的例子来说明什么是不好的。

But then there's just sort of Like say you're at work and you're a woman and you're at work, and there's a guy that you're attracted to, because a lot of people meet at work, right?

Because where do you meet people when you're an adult?

因为当你成年后你会在哪里认识人呢？

Where do you spend all your time?

You spend a lot of your days, five days a week at work, so you might meet someone through work, and maybe it's not someone you directly report to or reports to you.

They're in a different department.

他们在不同的部门。

There's a cute guy.

有一个可爱的家伙。

What do you do?

你做什么工作？

People don't know.

人们不知道。

So women are confused, too.

所以女性也很困惑。

What is okay?

什么是好的？

What is not okay?

In the ways that organically people used to be able to say, "Hey, that guy, I'm going to go talk to him." Right?

人们过去常常会这样说：“嘿，那个家伙，我要去和他谈谈。”正确的？

But people don't know what to do.

但人们不知道该怎么办。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Wow.

哇。

Tricky landscape, but you're offering tools for people at least, not at least, but to communicate better, and certainly to understand themselves better so they know what they're bringing to the table.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Well, I think that it's about understanding that whatever we see in TVs and movies, it doesn't look like that.

嗯，我认为重要的是要明白，无论我们在电视和电影中看到什么，它看起来都不是那样的。

Somebody doesn't know what to do in a certain moment, or something doesn't go the way that you imagine it will go, or sex can be ridiculous at times and all these weird things happen.

I don't mean not consent.

我的意思不是不同意。

I'm talking about like-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Sure

当然可以

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

...

it doesn't look like it does in the movies all the time.

它看起来并不像电影中那样。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, and sometimes there's great chemistry, and guess what?

好吧，有时会有很棒的化学反应，你猜怎么着？

Sometimes there's not.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This chemistry thing's a real thing.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And sometimes it develops over time, and sometimes it doesn't.

有时它会随着时间的推移而发展，有时却不会。

The idea that there wouldn't be much room for healthy exploration, error, and adventure-

认为没有太多空间进行健康的探索、错误和冒险的想法——

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

kind of breaks my heart.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I guess that's what I was referring to about-

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

things.

的事情。

But young people are smart.

They can figure it out.

他们能弄清楚。

And they also like to throw off the rules and standards of the adult generation, so I trust they'll come up with a better alternative for themselves, right?

I want to make sure that I ask you about grief.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

When a client is grieving a breakup or a loss of some sort, do you tell them to feel their feelings, or do you tell them to compartmentalize and only feel their feelings certain times of day, or do you ever have to say, "Hey, listen, it's time to bury this thing"?

当客户因分手或某种损失而悲伤时，你会告诉他们感受自己的感受，还是告诉他们要分开，只在一天中的某些时候感受自己的感受，或者你是否不得不说，“嘿，听着，是时候埋葬这件事了”？

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

I'm laughing because there's no one way to grieve a loss.

我笑是因为没有一种方法可以让失去的人感到悲伤。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

And even the same loss.

甚至同样的损失。

Like siblings can lose a parent, and they'll have very different ways of grieving the loss of the exact same person.

就像兄弟姐妹可能会失去父母一样，他们也会以截然不同的方式来表达对失去同一个人的悲伤。

There's just no right way or one way, and I think you really have to honor that person's process.

没有正确的方法或一种方法，我认为你真的必须尊重那个人的过程。

And what I mean by that is it doesn't mean just spend the rest of your life dwelling and not living, right?

我的意思是，这并不意味着你的余生只是在居住而不是生活中度过，对吗？

But I think people have this misconception about grief that somehow you're going to get over it.

但我认为人们对悲伤有这样的误解，认为你会以某种方式克服它。

And often we carry those losses with us throughout our lives.

通常，我们的一生都伴随着这些损失。

Like you lose someone important to you, you're going to feel that loss, and you might feel it in different ways at different times.

就像你失去了对你来说很重要的人一样，你也会感受到这种失去，而且你可能会在不同的时间以不同的方式感受到这种损失。

If someone was important to you and you lost that person, and you hadn't thought about them in a while, and then you're in an elevator and you hear this music, this song, and all of a sudden it's like someone just stuck a knife in your heart even though you were doing fine.

如果某人对你很重要，而你失去了那个人，你已经有一段时间没有想起他了，然后你在电梯里，听到这首音乐，这首歌，突然之间，就像有人在你的心上插了一把刀，尽管你做得很好。

So, I think that we are the accumulation of all the different people who have been in our lives, for better or worse, and everybody makes some kind of impression on us that sticks with us.

所以，我认为我们是生命中所有不同人的积累，无论好坏，每个人都给我们留下了某种难以忘怀的印象。

So I think it's really important for people to understand what the loss is about because the loss can represent lots of different things.

所以我认为人们了解损失是什么非常重要，因为损失可以代表很多不同的事情。

You lose a parent, maybe it's the loss of your youth.

你失去了父母，也许就失去了青春。

You're like, "Oh, no, I'm now the older generation." So part of it is the parent, but part of it is this kind of, "I'm closer to death, and what does that mean?" You lose a marriage, and it could mean, "Oh, look, just like my parents, they got divorced and I failed," even though that's not necessarily the meaning of it.

你会说，“哦，不，我现在是老一代了。”所以一部分是父母的，但一部分是这样的，“我离死亡更近了，这意味着什么？”你失去了一段婚姻，这可能意味着，“哦，看，就像我的父母一样，他们离婚了，我失败了，”尽管这不一定是它的含义。

So we make meaning of the loss, too.

So it's what does this loss mean to you?

How do you make sense of it?

你怎么理解它？

How do you sit with the loss?

And then how do you, again, not move on, but move forward?

那么你又如何不继续前进，而是继续前进呢？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love that concept.

We integrate the things for better or worse into us.

我们将事物的好坏融入到我们之中。

But moving forward is something I think everyone would probably want, one would hope.

但我认为，向前迈进是每个人都希望的事情。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I know you're not here to promote anything, but you caught my attention with this workbook because I think I and a number of people probably want to think about how to put some of this into action.

我知道你来这里不是为了宣传任何东西，但你的这本工作簿引起了我的注意，因为我认为我和许多人可能想考虑如何将其中的一些付诸实践。

And you've given us a lot of great tools to do that and a lot of different ways to think about things.

您为我们提供了许多出色的工具来实现这一目标，并提供了许多不同的思考方式。

I certainly am taking notes.

Can you tell me about the notebook, and what the notebook is, and who can make use of it?

您能告诉我有关笔记本的信息吗？笔记本是什么？谁可以使用它？

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

By the way, folks, this wasn't preceded into the conversation.

顺便说一句，伙计们，这并不是在谈话之前发生的。

We'll talk about the notebook later.

稍后我们会讨论笔记本。

I just want to know for people who want to understand how to do good work-

我只是想知道那些想要了解如何做好工作的人-

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

it sounds like a great tool.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right.

对。

So the workbook came about because I wrote this book called "Maybe You Should Talk to Someone," and it's my story going to therapy, and then it's the story of these four other patients that I had and my working with them.

所以这本工作簿的出现是因为我写了一本名为《也许你应该和某人谈谈》的书，这是我接受治疗的故事，然后是我的其他四位患者的故事以及我与他们一起工作的故事。

And people said, "Wow, there was so much that made me think or feel or resonate with, but I need some structured sort of a step-by-step guide to how I can make those kinds of changes, too." And maybe they don't have access to therapy, or they don't want to go to therapy.

人们说，“哇，有很多东西让我思考、感受或产生共鸣，但我也需要某种结构化的分步指南来指导我如何做出这些改变。”也许他们无法获得治疗，或者他们不想接受治疗。

They want to work on it in a different way.

And I really wanted...

I feel like therapy is this thing where certain people, it's sort of one-on-one, or if you have a couple, it's three people in the room.

我觉得治疗是针对某些人的，是一对一的，或者如果你有一对，那就是房间里的三个人。

And how do you bring that out so other people can use those tools?

您如何将其拿出来以便其他人可以使用这些工具？

So I created basically a workbook that's a companion to "Maybe You Should Talk to Someone," and I really focused on stories, because I feel like the narratives that we carry around shape so much of how we think, feel, and act every day.

所以我基本上创建了一本工作簿，作为《也许你应该和某人谈谈》的配套，我真的专注于故事，因为我觉得我们随身携带的叙述在很大程度上塑造了我们每天的思考、感受和行为。

So it's a guide.

所以它是一个指南。

It's what I would do with someone in the therapy room if I were helping them to rewrite their story and to look at, is this a faulty narrative?

如果我帮助治疗室里的人重写他们的故事并看看，这是一个错误的叙述，我就会对他们做这样的事情吗？

What does this look like?

这看起来像什么？

What are the true stories?

What resonates with me now at this part of my life?

在我人生的这个阶段，什么引起了我的共鸣？

Where do these stories come from?

这些故事从何而来？

Who told me these stories?

谁告诉我这些故事的？

Can I try this out in real life?

我可以在现实生活中尝试一下吗？

Here's an exercise to do this week.

这是本周要做的练习。

So I think that more of us sometimes need that kind of guidance.

所以我认为我们中的更多人有时需要这种指导。

It's one thing to theoretically think about something, and as a therapist, I'm just very direct and active anyway.

从理论上思考某件事是一回事，作为一名治疗师，我无论如何都是非常直接和积极的。

As I said, the insight is the booby prize of therapy.

正如我所说，洞察力是治疗的诱饵奖。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

That I want people to have more than insight.

我希望人们拥有的不仅仅是洞察力。

I want them to have a plan with action, and I want them to have small, manageable steps, because I feel like if you get overwhelmed and the step is too big, that's really the only reason that people don't succeed at a change they want to make.

我希望他们有一个付诸行动的计划，我希望他们有小的、可管理的步骤，因为我觉得如果你不知所措并且步骤太大，这确实是人们无法成功实现他们想要的改变的唯一原因。

It's that you need the steps to be manageable.

而是您需要使这些步骤易于管理。

So I really break it down for people.

所以我真的把它分解给人们。

How can we do this?

我们怎样才能做到这一点？

It's kind of like weekly therapy.

It's like, how can we do this this week, and work on that, and then you can kind of reflect on it, and there's all these different exercises that take you at the pace that works for you.

就像，我们这周如何做这个，然后做那个，然后你可以反思一下，所有这些不同的练习可以让你按照适合你的节奏进行。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's great.

太棒了。

I'm a huge fan of workbooks, and online courses.

I'm taking an online course right now, just for my own enrichment.

我现在正在参加在线课程，只是为了丰富自己。

I'm going to get your notebook.

我去拿你的笔记本。

I think it's a fabulous idea.

我认为这是一个很棒的主意。

I think there's so many books about the changes we can make in any domain of health, wellness, psychology, fitness, whatever, and we read it, we might incorporate one or two little-

我认为有很多关于我们可以在健康、保健、心理学、健身等任何领域做出改变的书籍，我们读了它们，我们可能会加入一两点——

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

snippets, and then it goes on the shelf, and then we're proud to have it on our shelf because it says something about how we view life, and it's cool to see those books elsewhere.

然后我们很自豪能把它放在我们的书架上，因为它讲述了我们如何看待生活，而且在其他地方看到这些书很酷。

And all that's wonderful.

这一切都很棒。

But I think workbooks are a real thing.

但我认为练习册是真实存在的。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So we'll put a link to that.

所以我们会放一个链接。

Again, this came up spontaneously, but I know a number of people will want to know that.

同样，这是自发出现的，但我知道很多人会想知道这一点。

I have one more question.

我还有一个问题。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You write this column.

你写这个专栏。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is it a weekly column?

这是每周专栏吗？

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Every two weeks, I write "Ask the Therapist," yeah.

每两周，我都会写“询问治疗师”，是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Are there things thematically that are coming up more these days?

最近有更多主题性的事情出现吗？

Like you're getting 1,000 letters about blank, and then two about something else?

就像您收到 1,000 封关于空白的信件，然后收到两封关于其他内容的信件？

I mean, where are things batching these days?

我的意思是，这些天批处理的事情在哪里？

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And there can be more than one-

并且可以有不止一个——

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

bat, bin, excuse me.

蝙蝠，宾，对不起。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Bin to how it's batching.

Bin 到它的批处理方式。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

So I think the same things come up.

所以我认为同样的事情也会出现。

I've been doing this for so many years.

我已经这样做了很多年了。

I wrote it for six years at "The Atlantic," and now I'm writing it at "The New York Times," and it's interesting because people talk about the same issues differently, but it's the same issue.

我在《大西洋月刊》上写了六年，现在我在《纽约时报》上写了它，这很有趣，因为人们以不同的方式谈论相同的问题，但这是同一个问题。

So someone might say, a lot comes up around, "Should I cut off this person?"

所以有人可能会说，很多时候，“我应该和这个人断绝关系吗？”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Whether that's a family member or a friend.

无论是家人还是朋友。

This person did this, and boundaries are a big thing, and everyone thinks everyone's a narcissist, which they're not.

这个人这样做了，界限是一件大事，每个人都认为每个人都是自恋者，但他们不是。

Everyone thinks everyone is gaslighting them, which generally they're not.

每个人都认为每个人都在给他们加油，但事实通常并非如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's all dopamine.

这都是多巴胺。

I'm just kidding.

我只是在开玩笑。

They're these...

他们就是这些...

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

But the language is different, is what I'm saying.

但语言不同，这就是我所说的。

But I think that what they're really struggling with, and what we all struggle with, are relating.

但我认为他们真正面临的困境，以及我们所有人面临的困境，是相关的。

It's hard.

这很难。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Humans are unpredictable.

人类是不可预测的。

Well, in some ways they're very predictable, but I think they're hard for another person to understand in that way, going back to the operating instructions, that sometimes you think this is going to be the expected response, and you get something completely different.

嗯，在某些方面它们是非常可预测的，但我认为其他人很难以这种方式理解它们，回到操作说明，有时你认为这将是预期的响应，但你会得到完全不同的东西。

They can't understand why a friend or a family member or a coworker or whatever would do or say or think something.

他们无法理解为什么朋友、家人、同事或其他任何人会做、说或想某事。

I think at the end of the day, people really know what the answer to the question is, but they want permission.

我认为归根结底，人们确实知道问题的答案是什么，但他们想要获得许可。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

So many times people say like, "What do you think about this?" Or, "I really want to do this, but the people in my family think this." And so they're almost asking for permission that it's okay to want something.

很多时候人们会问：“你对此有何看法？”或者，“我真的很想这样做，但我家里的人这么认为。”所以他们几乎是在请求许可，想要一些东西是可以的。

It's okay.

没关系。

We are so cautious about desire in our culture-

在我们的文化中，我们对欲望非常谨慎——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

毫米

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

...

that sometimes we think that if I have a desire, it's indulgent.

有时我们认为如果我有欲望，那就是放纵。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

As opposed to, you should.

相反，你应该。

You have desires.

你有欲望。

Live a big life.

过着美好的生活。

I always say to people, "When you're making a decision, choose the bigger life.

That's how you make the decision." And I heard that somewhere.

这就是你做出决定的方式。”我在某处听说过。

It's not mine originally, but I think it's so true that it's okay to have these desires.

But then we get these messages from our culture or our friend group or our families that no, no, no, it's not okay.

And so a lot of people want permission that it's okay that you don't want to go to medical school.

所以很多人都希望得到许可，认为你不想上医学院也没关系。

It's okay.

没关系。

It's okay that you don't want to have children.

你不想生孩子也没关系。

That's okay.

没关系。

So I think sometimes people want permission, but I think what they're really, I think most of the letters are about, "I'm having trouble relating, and I don't know if I'm crazy, they're crazy, what's happening?" And so they need sort of that person who's going to zoom out and see it from a more objective place, and help them to see, again, going back to narrative, both sides of the narrative.

所以我认为有时人们想要获得许可，但我认为他们真正的意思是，我认为大多数信件都是关于，“我在联系上遇到困难，我不知道我是否疯了，他们疯了，发生了什么事？”因此，他们需要这样一个人，能够缩小范围，从更客观的角度看待事情，并帮助他们再次回到叙述中，看到叙述的两面。

So I'm not just in my column, I don't just say, "Here's what you should do." I do do that, but I first say, "I want you to have some context around this.

所以我不只是在我的专栏里，我不只是说，“这就是你应该做的。”我确实这么做了，但我首先会说：“我希望你了解一些相关的背景信息。

So here's how you're thinking about it, and that's understandable.

所以这就是你的想法，这是可以理解的。

Here's the other side of the story that you're not really paying attention to.

Now that you have this wider lens, here's how I think this might be managed."

现在你有了更广阔的视角，我认为这就是管理的方法。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Love it.

喜欢它。

I love this concept of make the choice that is going to bring the bigger life.

我喜欢这种做出选择会带来更美好生活的概念。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because as you pointed out, it's so easy for people to stay stuck-

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

in what is unpleasant, but hasn't killed them yet.

发生了令人不快的事情，但还没有杀死他们。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Or they're waiting for something.

或者他们在等待什么。

Like-

就像-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

毫米

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

...

I will buy a house when.

啥时候买房。

I will look for a partner when.

到时候我会找一个合作伙伴。

As if there are these prerequisites that need to happen because that's the conventional view of the order in which you should live your life.

Like, "I won't buy a house until I'm married," as opposed to, why?

比如，“我结婚之前不会买房子”，而不是为什么？

Why can't you buy a house that you like if you have the money to do that, right?

如果你有钱，为什么不能买自己喜欢的房子，对吧？

Why do you have to wait for marriage for that?

为什么一定要等到结婚才知道呢？

Or, "I won't look for a partner until I have this kind of job." That you have to have all these little pieces in this order, and there are so many different ways to live your life.

Or, "I won't look for a partner until I have this kind of job."你必须按照这个顺序拥有所有这些小碎片，而且你的生活有很多不同的方式。

And sometimes, by the way, you might want to live your life in that conventional order, but it just doesn't work out that way for you, so you might have to switch up the order, and that's okay.

顺便说一句，有时候，你可能想按照传统的顺序生活，但它并不适合你，所以你可能必须改变顺序，这没关系。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love a vote in favor of people enjoying their life more, and hopefully deriving more self-respect by doing it.

我喜欢投票支持人们更多地享受生活，并希望通过这样做获得更多的自尊。

This asceticism of we're going to deprive ourselves of things in order to respect ourselves.

Even though I value discipline, and I think learning to enjoy life is also important.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Right.

对。

And I think that when we talk about, we're not talking about hedonism, we're talking about reflecting on what will make a meaningful, purposeful life for you, and then being very intentional about going after that goal.

我认为，当我们谈论的时候，我们不是在谈论享乐主义，我们是在谈论反思什么能让你过上有意义、有目标的生活，然后非常有意识地追求这个目标。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So much here.

这里就这么多了。

Laurie, thank you so much for the work you do with your patients/clients/we don't have a better word for it, and also your willingness to get out and teach, and literally every two weeks, field questions from the general public.

劳里，非常感谢您为患者/客户所做的工作/我们没有更好的词来形容它，也感谢您愿意出去教学，并且实际上每两周回答公众提出的问题。

It's not easy to do, I imagine.

我想这并不容易做到。

And clearly, you're thinking about things past, present, and future, and people really need these tools, and not everyone will make it into your office, unfortunately, and have the experience of working one-on-one with you.

显然，您正在思考过去、现在和未来的事情，人们确实需要这些工具，但不幸的是，并不是每个人都会进入您的办公室，并拥有与您一对一工作的经验。

But I think that the workbook, I'm so glad that came up so that people have an opportunity to put these things into action.

And you've given us a ton to work with here.

你们为我们提供了大量的帮助。

I listed out many things.

我列出了很多东西。

I won't list them out here.

我不会在这里列出它们。

We'll timestamp this episode in detail so people can go back and find them.

But yeah, I've learned a ton.

但是，是的，我学到了很多。

I'm going to put this to action, and hopefully you'll come back again and talk with us about what's new, because I know this is an evolving field.

我将把它付诸行动，希望您能再次回来与我们讨论新内容，因为我知道这是一个不断发展的领域。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And as the landscape of society changes, we're going to need new tools.

But it sounds like the fundamentals are really in there.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It involves self-reflection.

它涉及自我反思。

I love this thing about a list of the things that make us difficult to be with-

我喜欢列出一些让我们难以相处的事情——

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

as opposed to the list of the things we want in other people.

And that Teflon pan is something I'm going to think about a lot.

我会经常思考那个特氟龙锅。

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Yeah.

是的。

Well, thanks so much for this conversation.

嗯，非常感谢这次谈话。

I love having these longer conversations and really exploring what it means to be human.

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, thank you.

嗯，谢谢。

You've certainly enriched my thinking about it, and I'm sure everyone listening as well.

Lori Gottlieb:

洛瑞·戈特利布：

Thanks so much.

非常感谢。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Laurie Gottlieb.

感谢您参加今天与 Laurie Gottlieb 的讨论。

I hope you found it to be as interesting and as actionable as I did.

我希望您能像我一样发现它有趣且具有可操作性。

To learn more about Laurie Gottlieb's work and to find links to her excellent book and other resources, please see the show note captions.

要了解有关 Laurie Gottlieb 作品的更多信息，并找到她的优秀书籍和其他资源的链接，请参阅节目注释标题。

If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.

如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。

That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.

这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。

In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple.

此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的关注按钮来关注播客。

And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.

在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。

And you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.

您现在可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。

Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.

另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。

That's the best way to support this podcast.

这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。

If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.

如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客或嘉宾有意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑的主题，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。

I do read all the comments.

我确实阅读了所有评论。

For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.

对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。

It's my very first book.

这是我的第一本书。

It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.

它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这本书是我花了五年多时间编写的，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验。

And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.

它涵盖了从睡眠到运动再到压力控制的所有协议，以及与注意力和动机相关的协议，当然，我为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。

The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.

该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。

There you can find links to various vendors.

在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。

You can pick the one that you like best.

您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。

Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." And if you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.

同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。

So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.

这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。

And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast.

在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。

Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.

同样，所有社交媒体平台上都是 Huberman Lab。

And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.

如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。

We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.

我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。

All of that is available completely zero cost.

所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。

You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email.

您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的菜单选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件。

And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.

我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。

Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Laurie Gottlieb.

再次感谢您参加今天与 Laurie Gottlieb 的讨论。

And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。