How to Enhance Your Immune System | Dr. Roger Seheult
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. Roger Seheult.
今天我的嘉宾是 Roger Seheult 博士。
Dr. Roger Seheult is a board-certified medical doctor in pulmonology, which is the understanding and treatment of conditions that impact the respiratory system, such as colds, flus, and other viruses, mold infections, asthma, and more.
Roger Seheult 博士是经过委员会认证的肺病学医生，该领域致力于了解和治疗影响呼吸系统的疾病，例如感冒、流感和其他病毒、霉菌感染、哮喘等。
Dr. Seheult is also board-certified in sleep medicine.
Seheult 博士还获得了睡眠医学领域的委员会认证。
He does his clinical work in the intensive care unit at Loma Linda University, and he is actively involved in medical and public health education through his terrific online channel called MedCram.
他在洛马琳达大学的重症监护室从事临床工作，并通过他出色的在线渠道 MedCram 积极参与医疗和公共卫生教育。
Today, we discuss how to avoid getting colds, flus, and other viruses, and how to treat them to minimize discomfort, accelerate healing, and avoid long-term consequences.
今天，我们讨论如何避免感染感冒、流感和其他病毒，以及如何治疗它们以最大程度地减少不适、加速愈合并避免长期后果。
During today's episode, we discuss long COVID, as well as the use of sun and red light to stimulate mitochondrial, and therefore metabolic health across the entire brain and body.
在今天的节目中，我们讨论了长期的新冠肺炎，以及使用阳光和红光刺激线粒体，从而刺激整个大脑和身体的代谢健康。
That opens up a broader discussion about phototherapy, which is the use of light to control health, and temperature and other levers for improving brain and bodily function.
这引发了关于光疗的更广泛讨论，光疗是利用光来控制健康，以及利用温度和其他手段来改善大脑和身体功能。
Dr. Seheult emphasizes that sun and red light therapy have a long and well-established medical history, and their mechanisms of action are known, and therefore, it's not just biohacking as many people think.
Seheult 博士强调，太阳光和红光疗法有着悠久而完善的医学历史，而且它们的作用机制是已知的，因此，它并不像许多人想象的那样只是生物黑客攻击。
We also discuss the sometimes controversial topic of the flu shot and if and when you should get one.
我们还讨论了有时有争议的流感疫苗话题，以及是否以及何时应该接种流感疫苗。
Dr. Seheult, as you'll soon hear, is world-class at making medical concepts and the actionable items related to health exceptionally clear.
正如您很快就会听到的那样，Seheult 博士在使医学概念和与健康相关的可操作项目变得异常清晰方面是世界一流的。
As a consequence, I'm certain that you'll truly appreciate the knowledge that he shares in your efforts to be and stay healthy at any age.
因此，我确信您会真正感激他在您为任何年龄的健康而付出的努力中所分享的知识。
In fact, by the end of today's episode, you'll be armed with the real knowledge on how to best get over nasty infections of the sinuses, lungs, and throat faster, should you happen to get one, and even better, how to avoid them altogether.
事实上，在今天的节目结束时，您将掌握真正的知识，了解如何最好地更快地克服鼻窦、肺部和喉咙的严重感染（如果您碰巧感染了），甚至更好地了解如何完全避免它们。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, this episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，这一集确实有赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Roger Seheult.
现在我与 Roger Seheult 博士进行讨论。
Dr. Roger Seheult, welcome.
罗杰·塞休博士，欢迎光临。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Thank you so much, Andrew, for having me.
非常感谢你邀请我，安德鲁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I discovered you because you were putting out and continue to put out incredible information about how to stay healthy amidst infectious diseases, airborne infectious diseases, skin contact based infectious diseases, and on and on.
我发现你是因为你一直在发布并将继续发布关于如何在传染病、空气传播传染病、基于皮肤接触的传染病等中保持健康的令人难以置信的信息。
And nobody likes to be sick, and you've provided me tremendously valuable information about how to avoid getting sick and in many cases, how to accelerate the progression from sick to healthy again.
没有人喜欢生病，你为我提供了非常有价值的信息，告诉我如何避免生病，以及在许多情况下如何加速从生病到健康的再次发展。
It's been tremendously helpful for getting me back into life, as it were.
可以说，这对我恢复正常生活非常有帮助。
Let's talk about some of the things that one can do to avoid getting sick when in the presence of airborne viruses, in particular, colds and flus, and other viruses, as it were.
让我们谈谈在存在空气传播病毒（尤其是感冒和流感以及其他病毒）时可以采取的一些措施来避免生病。
If you were to think about the major pillars of remaining healthy, especially when one is exposed to colds and flus from kids, in your case, also in the intensive care unit, where people are coming in specifically because they're sick, often with infections like colds and flus or worse.
如果你要考虑保持健康的主要支柱，特别是当一个人接触到孩子的感冒和流感时，就你的情况而言，也是在重症监护室，人们专门因为生病而来到这里，通常患有感冒和流感等感染或更严重的感染。
You need to take specific precautions to avoid getting sick.
您需要采取特定的预防措施以避免生病。
What do you think of as the fundamental layer of keeping a healthy immune system to avoid getting sick?
您认为保持健康的免疫系统以避免生病的基本层是什么？
And then we'll talk about how to get over and move through being sick more quickly.
然后我们将讨论如何更快地克服并摆脱疾病。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes.
是的。
Well, the question is, how do you avoid getting sick in terms of infectious diseases?
那么问题来了，如何避免感染传染病呢？
And as it turns out, the answer to that is actually the same in terms of avoiding getting sick for anything.
事实证明，这个问题的答案实际上是相同的，即避免因任何事情而生病。
And it sort of goes to the pillars, as you call it, in my mind.
在我看来，它有点像你所说的支柱。
There's actually a physician that I know very well just outside of Stanford, actually, in a place called Weimar, Weimar University, Dr. Neil Nedley, and he's actually coined this mnemonic called NEW START.
事实上，在斯坦福大学之外，在一个叫魏玛的地方，魏玛大学，有一位我非常熟悉的医生尼尔·内德利博士，他实际上创造了这个助记符，叫做“新的开始”。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
And each of those letters to me in my mind is something that I go to when I want to improve health in people in general.
当我想要改善一般人的健康时，我脑海中写给我的每一封信都是我写的。
So N starts for nutrition.
于是N开始补充营养。
And we can talk about nutrition and what that does to the human body.
我们可以讨论营养及其对人体的影响。
Obviously, as natural as possible, staying away from processed foods.
显然，尽可能自然，远离加工食品。
That's something there.
那是那里的东西。
Exercise is E.
运动是E。
And when I'm talking about exercise, I'm talking about the understanding that we have regarding exercise, not to build muscle necessarily, be stronger.
当我谈论锻炼时，我谈论的是我们对锻炼的理解，不一定是为了锻炼肌肉，而是为了变得更强。
I'm talking about exercise in terms of health, and that has more of a J-hook type of picture.
我谈论的是健康方面的锻炼，这更像是一个 J 钩类型的图片。
What I mean by J-hook is if you're not doing any exercise, you're going to have higher levels of inflammation.
我所说的 J 形钩的意思是，如果您不进行任何锻炼，您的炎症水平就会更高。
As soon as you start to do some exercise, even mild to moderate exercise, the amount of inflammation in your body starts to come down.
一旦你开始做一些运动，即使是轻度到中度的运动，你体内的炎症量就会开始下降。
But as you start to do more and more exercise, you do have to be careful in terms of your general health.
但当您开始进行越来越多的锻炼时，您必须注意自己的整体健康状况。
This is exactly kind of what happens with athletes.
这正是运动员身上发生的事情。
They have to be very careful that when they're doing that type of elite athletic exercise, that they're not sick on the day of performance.
他们必须非常小心，当他们进行那种精英运动锻炼时，他们在表演当天不会生病。
And so that's an issue.
所以这是一个问题。
So I'm referring to just mild to moderate exercise is good.
所以我指的是轻度到中度的运动就很好。
The next one will be W, water.
下一个是W，水。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
So this is something that's really interesting.
所以这是非常有趣的事情。
Obviously, it seems pretty obvious, but not only the use of internal water, but external water.
显然，看起来很明显，但不仅使用内部水，还使用外部水。
So in that area, we can talk about sauna, cold plunge, things of that nature that can actually help with our immune system.
因此，在这个领域，我们可以谈论桑拿、冷水浴等实际上可以帮助我们的免疫系统的东西。
That's a whole interesting area of discussion.
这是一个非常有趣的讨论领域。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
It involves the innate immune system.
它涉及先天免疫系统。
It involves interferon.
它涉及干扰素。
There's a lot of history and data that goes back over 100 years on how that's been used.
关于它的使用方式，有很多可以追溯到 100 年前的历史和数据。
START, S-T-A-R-T.
开始，S-T-A-R-T。
So S is sunlight.
所以S是阳光。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
I've been a real proponent of getting people outside into the sun, and we can talk a lot about that.
我一直是让人们到户外晒太阳的真正支持者，我们可以就此进行很多讨论。
There's a lot of interesting research, not only in terms of sunlight, in terms of influenza, but also COVID, and just about any natural disease.
有很多有趣的研究，不仅涉及阳光、流感，还涉及新冠病毒以及几乎任何自然疾病。
Lot of interesting information there.
那里有很多有趣的信息。
T.
T。
T stands for the old term called temperance, which you may recall is a term that we use to prevent us from taking in toxins into our body.
T代表旧术语“节制”，您可能还记得这个术语是用来防止我们将毒素摄入体内的。
That's a whole another discussion.
这完全是另一个讨论。
So staying away from things that would make you sick.
因此，远离那些会让你生病的事情。
A is air.
A是空气。
And when I talk about air, it's not just what we focus on, which is keeping bad things out of the air, so having fresh air.
当我谈论空气时，我们关注的不仅仅是排除空气中的有害物质，从而拥有新鲜空气。
But there's a whole discussion to be had in terms of air that has good qualities in it.
但是，对于具有良好品质的空气，还需要进行全面的讨论。
So there's a whole area of research that looks at, for instance, phytoncides, which are chemicals that come off of trees.
因此，有一整个研究领域着眼于植物杀菌剂，这是一种从树木上提取的化学物质。
You may have heard of forest bathing.
您可能听说过森林浴。
They've done a lot of research in Japan on this and getting out into nature.
他们在日本对此进行了大量研究并深入大自然。
There are actual chemicals that are in the air that you can breathe that actually have an impact on your innate immune system.
您可以呼吸的空气中存在一些实际的化学物质，它们实际上会对您的先天免疫系统产生影响。
Finally, R, and we'll get into R and T at the end.
最后是 R，最后我们将讨论 R 和 T。
R is rest.
R是休息。
Now, this goes without saying, but people who have good sleep habits are going to have much better immune systems.
现在，这是不言而喻的，但是拥有良好睡眠习惯的人将会拥有更好的免疫系统。
Whether you're talking about the antibody response after a vaccine, versus just the number of times per year you're sick, there's very good data, very good research that shows that getting seven, eight hours of sleep a night is going to be very beneficial for your immune system.
无论您谈论的是疫苗后的抗体反应，还是每年生病的次数，都有非常好的数据、非常好的研究表明，每晚睡七、八个小时对您的免疫系统非常有益。
It has to do with cortisol and beta receptors and all sorts of things.
它与皮质醇和β受体以及各种各样的东西有关。
And the last T, which is trust.
最后一个T，就是信任。
And for some, it is trust in a higher power, trust in God.
对于某些人来说，这是对更高权力的信任，对上帝的信任。
These are the sorts of things that can help us relieve stress.
这些都是可以帮助我们缓解压力的事情。
If someone else is helping you, if someone else is there.
如果有人在帮助你，如果有人在场。
T would also include community, people that are around you.
T 还包括社区、你周围的人。
These are some of the less tangible ways of measuring it.
这些是一些不太明显的衡量方法。
But when someone asks me a question, "What can I do to avoid getting sick?" And as you just asked me in terms of influenza, there's a lot of specific things we can talk about, but that's where I start out with the pillars of health.
但当有人问我一个问题：“我该怎么做才能避免生病？”正如你刚才问我关于流感的问题，我们可以讨论很多具体的事情，但这就是我从健康支柱开始的地方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and thank our sponsor, Joovv.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 Joovv。
Joovv makes medical-grade red light therapy devices.
Joovv 生产医疗级红光治疗设备。
Now, if there's one thing that I have consistently emphasized on this podcast, it is the incredible impact that light can have on our biology.
现在，如果我在这个播客中一直强调一件事，那就是光对我们的生物学产生的令人难以置信的影响。
Now, in addition to sunlight, red light and near-infrared light sources have been shown to have positive effects on improving numerous aspects of cellar and organ health, including faster muscle recovery, improved skin health and wound healing, improvements in acne, reduced pain and inflammation, even mitochondrial function, and improving vision itself.
现在，除了阳光之外，红光和近红外光源已被证明对改善细胞和器官健康的许多方面具有积极作用，包括更快的肌肉恢复、改善皮肤健康和伤口愈合、改善痤疮、减少疼痛和炎症，甚至线粒体功能，以及改善视力本身。
What sets Joovv lights apart and why they're my preferred red light therapy device is that they use clinically proven wavelengths, meaning specific wavelengths of red light and near-infrared light in combination to trigger the optimal cellar adaptations.
Joovv 灯的与众不同之处以及它们成为我首选红光治疗设备的原因在于它们使用经过临床验证的波长，这意味着特定波长的红光和近红外光相结合可以触发最佳的酒窖适应。
Personally, I use the Joovv whole body panel about three to four times a week, and I use the Joovv handheld light both at home and when I travel.
就我个人而言，我每周大约使用 Joovv 全身面板三到四次，在家和旅行时我都会使用 Joovv 手持灯。
If you'd like to try Joovv, you can go to Joovv, spelled J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Joovv，可以访问 Joovv，拼写为 J-O-O-V-V，.com/huberman。
Joovv is offering an exclusive discount to all Huberman Lab listeners with up to $400 off Joovv products.
Joovv 为所有 Huberman Lab 听众提供独家折扣，Joovv 产品最高可享受 400 美元的折扣。
Again, that's Joovv, spelled J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman to get up to $400 off.
同样，这是 Joovv，拼写为 J-O-O-V-V，.com/huberman 最高可享受 400 美元折扣。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Eight Sleep.
今天的节目也是八觉给我们带来的。
Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity.
August Sleep 生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。
Now, I've spoken before on this podcast about the critical need for us to get adequate amounts of quality sleep each night.
现在，我之前在这个播客上谈到过我们迫切需要每晚获得充足的优质睡眠。
Now, one of the best ways to ensure a great night's sleep is to ensure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct, and that's because in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees.
现在，确保一夜好眠的最佳方法之一是确保睡眠环境的温度正确，这是因为为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的体温实际上必须下降约一到三度。
And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase about one to three degrees.
为了醒来时感到神清气爽、精力充沛，您的体温实际上必须升高约一到三度。
Eight Sleep makes it very easy to control the temperature of your sleeping environment by allowing you to program the temperature of your mattress cover at the beginning, middle, and end of the night.
八睡眠让您可以轻松控制睡眠环境的温度，您可以在晚上开始、中间和结束时对床垫罩的温度进行编程。
I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for nearly four years now, and it has completely transformed and improved the quality of my sleep.
我已经睡在八睡眠床垫罩上近四年了，它彻底改变并改善了我的睡眠质量。
Eight Sleep recently launched their newest generation of the pod cover called the Pod 4 Ultra.
八睡眠最近推出了他们最新一代的 Pod 4 Ultra。
The Pod 4 Ultra has improved cooling and heating capacity.
Pod 4 Ultra 改进了制冷和制热能力。
I find that very useful because I like to make the bed really cool at the beginning of the night, even colder in the middle of the night, and warm as I wake up.
我发现这非常有用，因为我喜欢让床在夜刚开始时非常凉爽，在半夜更冷，而在我醒来时却很温暖。
That's what gives me the most slow-wave sleep and rapid eye movement sleep.
这就是给我最慢波睡眠和快速动眼睡眠的原因。
It also has snoring detection that will automatically lift your head a few degrees to improve your airflow and stop your snoring.
它还具有打鼾检测功能，可自动将您的头部抬起几度，以改善气流并停止打鼾。
If you'd like to try an Eight Sleep mattress cover, go to eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $350 off their Pod 4 Ultra.
如果您想尝试 8 Sleep 床垫套，请访问 foursleep.com/huberman，Pod 4 Ultra 最多可节省 350 美元。
Eight Sleep currently ships in the USA, Canada, UK, select countries in the EU, and Australia.
八睡眠目前在美国、加拿大、英国、欧盟部分国家和澳大利亚发货。
Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman.
再说一遍，这是八睡眠.com/huberman。
Let's start off with one of my favorite topics, would be the S in NEW START.
让我们从我最喜欢的主题之一开始，即《NEW START》中的 S。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's talk about sunlight.
我们来谈谈阳光。
Listeners of this podcast or anyone that's heard me on social media know that I'm as big a proponent of getting morning sunlight in one's eyes as one could possibly be without repeating himself 10 million times per year.
这个播客的听众或任何在社交媒体上听过我讲话的人都知道，我非常支持让早晨的阳光照射到眼睛里，就像一个人每年不重复 1000 万次一样。
It's a daily activity that we just know has such an outsized positive effect on the whole setting of the circadian rhythm and thereby improved daytime mood focus and alertness and nighttime sleep.
我们知道，这是一项日常活动，对整个昼夜节律具有巨大的积极影响，从而改善白天的情绪集中度和警觉性以及夜间睡眠。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the way you describe sunlight, it goes beyond just getting morning sunlight in one's eyes.
但你描述阳光的方式不仅仅是让早晨的阳光进入眼睛。
So if we want to parse this S, sunlight, in NEW START, how are you thinking about sunlight?
那么，如果我们想在《NEW START》中解析这个S，阳光，你是如何看待阳光的？
Is it sunlight on the skin?
是阳光照在皮肤上吗？
Is it also midday light, not just morning sunlight?
这也是正午的阳光，而不仅仅是早晨的阳光吗？
Is it a certain amount of sunlight?
是否有一定的日照量？
And then maybe we can also talk about some of the underlying mechanisms.
然后也许我们还可以讨论一些底层机制。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
So when you talk about sunlight, and I'm a big believer, I'm board certified in sleep medicine, and I'm cheering you on when you talk about these things because it's so important that light into the retina does have an effect on the circadian rhythm, suprachiasmatic nucleus.
因此，当你谈论阳光时，我是一个坚定的信徒，我获得了睡眠医学委员会的认证，当你谈论这些事情时，我为你欢呼，因为进入视网膜的光线确实对昼夜节律、视交叉上核产生影响，这一点非常重要。
It does have an effect on mood.
对心情确实有影响。
It goes to the perihabenular nucleus in the brain and has an effect there.
它到达大脑中的缰核周围核并在那里产生作用。
Those are well known and very important.
这些都是众所周知的并且非常重要。
What I'm talking about when I'm talking about sunlight is an aspect of light that is not very well known in terms of its visible effects.
当我谈论阳光时，我谈论的是光的一个方面，但就其可见效果而言，人们并不十分了解。
So we know about the visible effects of light.
所以我们了解光的可见效应。
These are photons that are coming into the eyes that we can see.
这些是进入我们眼睛的光子。
What I'm discussing and what I'm talking about is the effect of sunlight on the human body, the skin penetrating into the human body.
我现在讨论的和我讲的就是阳光对人体的影响，皮肤渗透到人体的情况。
Now, this at first sounds kind of woo-woo, I guess, we could say.
现在，我想，我们可以说，这乍一听起来有点令人惊叹。
But the point that I want to make here is understanding that when we look at the sun, we are seeing about 38% of that energy coming from the sun is in the visible spectrum.
但我想在这里指出的一点是，当我们观察太阳时，我们看到来自太阳的能量中大约 38% 位于可见光谱中。
There is a whole other 52% of the photons coming from the sun in the infrared spectrum.
红外光谱中还有另外 52% 的光子来自太阳。
And on the other end, on the ultraviolet side, this is the part we have no problem understanding because we know that ultraviolet B light comes into our skin, and it's high energy, so it's able to actually move the bonds on these cholesterol derivatives in order to make vitamin D.
另一方面，在紫外线方面，我们可以轻松理解这一部分，因为我们知道紫外线 B 会进入我们的皮肤，并且能量很高，因此它能够真正移动这些胆固醇衍生物上的键，从而生成维生素 D。
So we know that.
所以我们知道这一点。
So now what do we say?
那么现在我们说什么？
When I say, "Hey, I want to go outside to get some vitamin D," we know that we're going outside to get this light that we can't see, that's very imperative to giving us something called vitamin D, which is a hormone in our body, and it's very important.
当我说“嘿，我想出去获取一些维生素 D”时，我们知道我们要到外面去获取看不见的光线，这对于为我们提供一种叫做维生素 D 的物质非常重要，维生素 D 是我们体内的一种激素，非常重要。
On the other side of that, though, on the infrared side, is something that there's new science, new data that is coming out that is showing that it's actually very important.
但另一方面，在红外线方面，新科学、新数据的出现表明它实际上非常重要。
And for that, I would point to an article that really changed my thinking on this and really opened my eyes, no pun intended.
为此，我想引用一篇文章，它真正改变了我对此的看法，真正让我大开眼界，没有双关语的意思。
There was an article that was published in 2019 in "Melatonin Research" by Scott Zimmerman and Russell Reiter.
Scott Zimmerman 和 Russell Reiter 于 2019 年在《褪黑激素研究》上发表了一篇文章。
And the name of that article was "Melatonin: Optics of the Human Body." The optics of the human body.
那篇文章的名字是“褪黑激素：人体的光学”。人体的光学。
And what Scott Zimmerman and Russell Reiter set out to show is that, in fact, infrared light, because of its very long wavelength, it can penetrate through into the skin actually very deep.
Scott Zimmerman 和 Russell Reiter 想要证明的是，事实上，红外线由于其波长很长，实际上可以穿透到皮肤很深的地方。
And we're not talking about how long a path length goes through.
我们不是在谈论路径长度经过多长。
You have to remember that this type of long wavelength can scatter, and it can scatter throughout up to, they say, up to eight centimeters, according to this data.
你必须记住，这种类型的长波长可以散射，根据这些数据，它可以散射到八厘米。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A single photon.
单个光子。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
A single photon can bounce around.
单个光子可以反弹。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
It's a very low energy photon, but low energy photons, because they're very long in wavelength, can penetrate very deeply.
它是一种能量非常低的光子，但是低能量光子，因为它们的波长很长，所以可以穿透很深。
A good way of thinking about this is, you pull up to a stop sign, and a car pulls up next to you, and they're playing this really loud music.
思考这个问题的一个好方法是，你把车停在停车标志前，一辆车停在你旁边，他们正在播放非常吵闹的音乐。
What do you hear in your car?
你在车里听到什么？
It's very low frequency sound.
这是频率非常低的声音。
And the reason why that's what you hear is because low frequency sound is the only kind of sound coming out of that guy's radio that's able to penetrate not only his car, but go into your car and shake the steering wheel on your car.
你之所以听到这样的声音，是因为低频声音是从那个人的收音机中发出的唯一一种声音，它不仅能够穿透他的汽车，还能进入你的汽车并摇动你汽车上的方向盘。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
It's the same thing like, for instance, if you were to go to the Grand Canyon and there's a storm coming.
这就像，例如，如果你要去大峡谷，而暴风雨即将来临。
Storm very far away.
暴风雨很远。
What's the first thing that you're going to hear?
您首先听到的是什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Boom.
繁荣。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
It's low rumbling.
是低沉的隆隆声。
It's because that low frequency energy is able to penetrate very deeply.
因为低频能量能够穿透得很深。
There's an astrophysicist in Europe, in England actually, Bob Fosbury.
欧洲有一位天体物理学家，实际上是在英国，鲍勃·福斯伯里。
He sent me a photograph of his hand in front of an infrared light source, and it was almost like the first guy who took an X-ray of his hand, Roentgen, I guess is his name.
他给我发了一张他的手在红外光源前的照片，这几乎就像第一个给他的手拍 X 光片的人，伦琴，我猜这就是他的名字。
And he looked at his hand, he says, "I almost saw my own death." Because he could see the bones in his hand through the X-ray.
他看着自己的手，说道：“我几乎亲眼目睹了自己的死亡。”因为通过X光他可以看到自己手上的骨头。
Well, Bob Fosbury, who's at the European Space Agency and is well tuned into this type of understanding, he put his hand in front of an infrared light sensor or infrared light source and took an infrared light photograph, and the light comes through the hand.
欧洲航天局的鲍勃·福斯伯里（Bob Fosbury）非常了解这种理解，他将手放在红外光传感器或红外光源前，拍了一张红外光照片，光线穿过手。
It illuminates the entire hand.
它照亮了整个手。
And this was, of course, a lot more than a few millimeters.
当然，这远不止几毫米。
And the mind-blowing thing about it was you could not see any bones.
令人兴奋的是你看不到任何骨头。
It was either penetrating through the bone or it was going around the bone.
它要么穿透骨头，要么绕过骨头。
And very clearly you could see that infrared light is able to go much more than just skin deep.
您可以非常清楚地看到，红外光的穿透深度远不止于皮肤深处。
It penetrates through your clothes.
它会穿透你的衣服。
You can actually test this out on a summer day or even on a winter day if the sun is out.
实际上，您可以在夏天进行测试，甚至在没有阳光的冬日进行测试。
Wear a few layers of clothing, go outside, close your eyes, and move around and see if you can feel where the sun is.
穿几层衣服，到外面去，闭上眼睛，四处走动，看看是否能感觉到太阳在哪里。
You can.
你可以。
And the reason is because it's that infrared radiation that's able to penetrate through the clothes, penetrate through your skin, actually activate the heat sensors in your body and actually go much deeper than that.
原因是红外线辐射能够穿透衣服、穿透皮肤，实际上激活你体内的热传感器，并且实际上比这更深。
That's actually in a straight line.
这实际上是一条直线。
After it does that, it hits something, and then it bounces around a couple of more times, maybe a few hundred more times.
这样做之后，它会撞到某个东西，然后又弹跳几次，也许几百次。
And so the point of that paper, "The Optics of the Human Body," is that we have this understanding or this idea that light simply hits our skin and that's where it ends, and that's not the case.
因此，《人体光学》这篇论文的要点是，我们有这样的理解或想法，即光只是照射到我们的皮肤上，那就是它的终点，但事实并非如此。
Why that's important is because of the effect of this type of infrared light has on mitochondria, and that's really the mind-blowing aspect of this, is that mitochondria are like engines in your cells.
为什么这很重要，因为这种红外光对线粒体有影响，而这确实是令人兴奋的方面，线粒体就像细胞中的发动机。
They're like engines in your car.
它们就像汽车中的发动机。
The engine in your car burns fuel, makes locomotion, and in the process of making that locomotion, it creates heat.
汽车中的发动机燃烧燃料，进行运动，在运动过程中，它会产生热量。
And that heat, if not dealt with, can shut down your engine.
如果不处理这些热量，您的发动机可能会关闭。
Well, in the mitochondria, you've got this process occurring making ATP, which is basically the currency of energy in the cell.
好吧，在线粒体中，您会发生生成 ATP 的过程，ATP 基本上是细胞中的能量货币。
And in the process of doing this, it makes oxidative stress, reactive oxygen species.
在这个过程中，它会产生氧化应激，活性氧。
If you don't deal with those reactive oxygen species, that could shut down the mitochondria.
如果不处理这些活性氧，线粒体可能会关闭。
And quite truly, just about every single chronic disease that we have in this country, whether it's diabetes, hypertension, heart disease, dementia, all of those, they all have at the root of them Mitochondrial dysfunction.
确实，我们国家几乎每一种慢性疾病，无论是糖尿病、高血压、心脏病、痴呆症，所有这些疾病的根源都是线粒体功能障碍。
And this goes to a much bigger picture of the mitochondrial theory of aging.
这涉及到线粒体衰老理论的更大图景。
We know that after 40 years, the output of mitochondria, which is ATP, drops by about 70%.
我们知道，40年后，线粒体（即ATP）的产量下降了约70%。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Seven-zero?
七零？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Seven-zero.
七零。
Can you imagine being in your house and somehow the energy production to your house drops by 70%?
您能想象在您的房子里，您的房子的能源产量不知何故下降了 70% 吗？
Can you imagine what an impact that would have on just about every function that goes on in your house?
您能想象这会对您家里的几乎所有功能产生多大的影响吗？
This is exactly what's happening in the cell.
这正是细胞中发生的事情。
And so what does this have to do with sunlight?
那么这与阳光有什么关系呢？
Well, here's what they've shown, that the mitochondria actually make on-site melatonin in orders of magnitude higher concentration that is made in the pineal gland.
好吧，这就是他们所证明的，线粒体实际上现场产生的褪黑激素的浓度比松果体中产生的浓度高出几个数量级。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes.
是的。
So they've actually done the work where they have serotonin.
所以他们实际上是在有血清素的情况下完成了工作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
They are actually labeling the carbons in serotonin and showing that melatonin in orders of magnitude higher concentration are being made on-site in the mitochondria.
他们实际上标记了血清素中的碳，并表明线粒体中正在现场产生浓度高出几个数量级的褪黑激素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, I have to ask about this.
好吧，我得问一下这个问题。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Most people, including me, are familiar with melatonin secretion from the pineal gland-
大多数人，包括我，都熟悉松果体分泌的褪黑激素——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Correct
正确
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
being suppressed by light via some neural circuit pathways that go from eye to suprachiasmatic nucleus to, there's a circuitous loop to the brain stem and then up to the pineal.
通过从眼睛到视交叉上核的一些神经回路路径受到光的抑制，有一个迂回的回路到达脑干，然后到达松果体。
So light suppresses melatonin release from the pineal.
因此，光会抑制松果体释放褪黑激素。
We know that.
我们知道这一点。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In that context, melatonin is the hormone of darkness and causes sleepiness.
在这种情况下，褪黑激素是黑暗的激素，会导致困倦。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What is the role of melatonin in the context that you are describing?
在您所描述的背景下，褪黑激素的作用是什么？
Because if indeed infrared and other long wavelength light is causing the production of melatonin from the mitochondria in the rest of the body, I'm assuming that's not to increase our levels of sleepiness.
因为如果红外线和其他长波长光确实导致身体其他部位的线粒体产生褪黑激素，我假设这不会增加我们的困倦程度。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
That is correct.
这是正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I do know that melatonin is a powerful antioxidant.
我确实知道褪黑激素是一种强大的抗氧化剂。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I'm guessing that next you're going to tell me that it is combating the reactive oxygen species that are produced as a function of mitochondrial metabolism.
所以我猜接下来你会告诉我它正在对抗线粒体代谢产生的活性氧。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
So the mitochondria make melatonin on-site.
所以线粒体就地产生褪黑激素。
This is not being secreted into the blood.
这不会分泌到血液中。
It's being used on-site.
正在现场使用。
So this is not being used as a secondary messenger to tell the body anything about circadian rhythm.
因此，这并没有被用作告诉身体有关昼夜节律的任何信息的第二信使。
This is a, extremely powerful as you know, extremely powerful antioxidant.
如您所知，这是一种非常强大的抗氧化剂。
It's actually one of the most powerful antioxidants in the human body.
它实际上是人体内最强大的抗氧化剂之一。
It actually upregulates the glutathione system by regulation.
它实际上通过调节来上调谷胱甘肽系统。
So what this melatonin does is it's able to mop up these reactive oxygen species.
所以这种褪黑激素的作用是能够清除这些活性氧。
Let's back up a little bit there.
让我们稍微回顾一下。
Reactive oxygen species, what are they?
活性氧，它们是什么？
So let's get nerdy, let's get into the details.
所以，让我们变得书呆子，让我们进入细节。
In the mitochondria, the way it works is that you burn fuels.
在线粒体中，它的工作方式是燃烧燃料。
You burn carbohydrates, proteins, and fats.
你燃烧碳水化合物、蛋白质和脂肪。
And as a result of that, you make these very reduced agents, NADH, FADH2.
结果，你制造了这些非常还原的试剂，NADH，FADH2。
They go to the electron transport chain.
它们进入电子传输链。
And just as the Colorado River, as it goes down through various different dams and then dumps out into the Gulf of California, the same thing happens with these very highly charged and electronegative electrons.
就像科罗拉多河一样，当它流经各种不同的水坝，然后流入加利福尼亚湾时，这些带电性非常高的负电电子也会发生同样的情况。
As they start to fall down and get transferred from one enzyme to another, they cause the out production or the out transfer of protons into the intermembrane space.
当它们开始掉落并从一种酶转移到另一种酶时，它们会导致质子的产生或转移到膜间空间。
The problem is though, is when you finally get done with these electrons, they've been completely spent.
但问题是，当你最终用完这些电子时，它们已经完全耗尽了。
There's nothing else to accept them.
没有什么可以接受他们了。
And the only thing that can actually do that is something so electronegative that it would actually take these electrons, and that's oxygen.
唯一真正能做到这一点的是负电性很强的东西，它实际上会带走这些电子，那就是氧气。
And that's the reason why we breathe oxygen.
这就是我们呼吸氧气的原因。
It's because we need an electron acceptor for these spent electrons.
这是因为我们需要一个电子受体来容纳这些废电子。
It's very near and dear to my heart as a pulmonologist and critical care specialist.
作为一名肺科医生和重症监护专家，这对我来说是非常亲近的。
We need to have oxygen.
我们需要氧气。
If you don't have oxygen, things shut down very quickly.
如果没有氧气，一切很快就会停止。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For those that aren't familiar with these biochemical pathways, maybe one way for them to think about it is that free electrons are not a good thing-
对于那些不熟悉这些生化途径的人来说，也许他们思考的一种方式是自由电子不是一件好事——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in this system.
在这个系统中。
You don't want electrons floating around.
你不希望电子四处漂浮。
And in these biochemical steps that convert energy into the stuff that cells can use more readily to move and do everything that we do-
在这些将能量转化为细胞可以更容易地用来移动和完成我们所做的一切的物质的生化步骤中——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
electrons are kicked off.
电子被踢出。
Oxygen can work with those free electrons.
氧可以与这些自由电子一起作用。
I'm trying to use language here that-
我在这里尝试用这样的语言——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
divorces us from the-
让我们与——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Biochemical
生化
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the classic-
经典的——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
biochemical pathways so that more-
生化途径，以便更多-
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
people can grasp it, because it's really a beautiful mechanism.
人们能够掌握它，因为它确实是一个美丽的机制。
So if you have a positive charge to effectively work with the free negative charge, then the system is stabilized or at least isn't pushed in the direction of inflammation.
因此，如果你有正电荷可以有效地与自由负电荷一起工作，那么系统就会稳定，或者至少不会被推向炎症的方向。
Many people have heard of free radicals.
很多人都听说过自由基。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that's what we're referring to.
这就是我们所指的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You want to offset the free radicals.
你想要抵消自由基。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And to the biochemists out there and the biologists, I'm using the term offset loosely.
对于生物化学家和生物学家来说，我宽松地使用了“偏移”这个术语。
Okay, so melatonin in the context of how sunlight can activate melatonin within cells, maybe it's worth pointing out to people that when the pineal gland releases melatonin to make you sleepy, that's an endocrine or hormone type mechanism.
好的，所以褪黑激素在阳光如何激活细胞内的褪黑激素的背景下，也许值得向人们指出，当松果体释放褪黑激素让你昏昏欲睡时，这是一种内分泌或激素类型的机制。
Hormones act on local tissues and more distant tissues in the body.
激素作用于体内的局部组织和更远的组织。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Pheromones act between bodies.
信息素在身体之间起作用。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
In the context that you're describing, melatonin is acting within cell.
在您所描述的情况下，褪黑激素在细胞内发挥作用。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
So let's think of this dichotomy.
让我们考虑一下这种二分法。
The mitochondria always needs to have antioxidants, otherwise it's going to become damaged.
线粒体始终需要抗氧化剂，否则就会受损。
Like if these free radicals are produced, the very next molecule that they bump into, it's going to change it.
就像如果这些自由基产生了，它们遇到的下一个分子就会改变它。
And if that's the mitochondria, the mitochondria is going to be damaged.
如果那是线粒体，那么线粒体就会受损。
So it needs a cooling system.
所以它需要一个冷却系统。
Just like your car has a cooling system for heat, the mitochondria needs a cooling system for oxidative stress.
就像你的汽车有一个用于热量的冷却系统一样，线粒体也需要一个用于氧化应激的冷却系统。
What's the cooling system during the day?
白天的冷却系统是怎样的？
Sunlight comes in, activates these, it upregulates melatonin, which does that.
阳光进来，激活这些，它上调褪黑激素，从而做到这一点。
Well, when there is no sunlight, what is the cooling system then?
那么，当没有阳光时，冷却系统又是怎样的呢？
It's the system that we've always known about.
这是我们一直都知道的系统。
And the reason why we've always known about it is because we can draw blood samples.
我们之所以一直知道它是因为我们可以抽取血液样本。
It's much easier to detect melatonin in the blood because we've developed techniques first to detect things in the blood.
检测血液中的褪黑激素要容易得多，因为我们首先开发了检测血液中物质的技术。
But what we're talking about now is how do we detect things not only intracellular, but intraorganelle.
但我们现在讨论的是如何不仅检测细胞内的物质，而且检测细胞器内的物质。
That's much more sophisticated, yet now we do have the technology to show.
这要复杂得多，但现在我们确实拥有可以展示的技术。
And the amount of melatonin we're talking about is 20 times higher than we're picking up in the blood.
我们所说的褪黑激素含量比血液中的褪黑激素含量高 20 倍。
So at night, the system is melatonin is secreted from the pineal gland.
所以在晚上，褪黑激素系统是由松果体分泌的。
It goes into the blood, diffuses into the cell, diffuses into the mitochondria, and does the job.
它进入血液，扩散到细胞中，扩散到线粒体中，然后完成工作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you think that that role of melatonin from the pineal at night is part of the reason why sleep is so restorative?
您认为夜间松果体中褪黑激素的作用是睡眠如此恢复活力的部分原因吗？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's probably no coincidence then that when we fall asleep, it's at least correlated with, and in many ways caused by, the reduction in core body temperature.
当我们入睡时，它至少与核心体温的降低相关，并且在很多方面是由核心体温的降低引起的，这可能并非巧合。
It's very unusual for melatonin levels to be high when body temperature is high.
当体温高时，褪黑激素水平升高是非常不寻常的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
These things normally are coordinated at night.
这些事情通常是在晚上协调的。
I'm not aware that it actually drops body temperature, but it might.
我不知道它实际上会降低体温，但可能会。
I'm just not aware of the literature.
我只是不了解文学。
But what you're describing is amazing.
但你所描述的令人惊奇。
First of all, most people's minds, including mine, are going to be blown by the fact that long wavelength light can actually go through clothing-
首先，大多数人，包括我在内，都会被长波长光实际上可以穿透衣服的事实震惊——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and skin.
和皮肤。
And so you can imagine that if you have a minimum of clothing on, whatever's appropriate for that-
所以你可以想象，如果你穿了最少的衣服，无论什么合适的衣服——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
context, and you get some sunlight on your skin, even on a cloudy day-
即使在阴天，你的皮肤也会得到一些阳光-
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
some of this should be coming through.
其中一些应该会实现。
We could talk about that.
我们可以谈谈这个。
It's more UV light-
更多的是紫外线——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
short wavelength light, that's going to break through thick cloud cover.
短波长光，将突破厚厚的云层。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Correct.
正确。
Cloud cover, because it's water vapor, and water vapor does absorb infrared.
云层，因为它是水蒸气，而水蒸气确实吸收红外线。
It will be substantially less, but much more than being inside.
它会少得多，但比在里面要多得多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And on a clear day or partially cloudy day, we're getting a lot of red light, long wavelength light, and infrared, and near-infrared light coming through.
在晴朗的日子或部分阴天，我们会收到大量的红光、长波长光、红外线和近红外光。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think a lot of people don't realize that because in this age of red light devices and infrared light devices, of which I own one and I love and I use, but people forget that the primordial and arguably, I'll say the best source of red light and near-infrared light and infrared light of the sort that we're talking about right now is going to come from the sun, right?
我认为很多人没有意识到这一点，因为在这个红光设备和红外光设备的时代，我拥有一个，我喜欢并且使用它们，但人们忘记了原始的，可以说，我会说我们现在正在讨论的那种红光、近红外光和红外光的最佳来源将来自太阳，对吗？
There's-
有——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
100%
100%
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
no device that can replace the sun.
没有任何设备可以取代太阳。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
100%.
100%。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
100%, yeah.
100%，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, great.
好的，太好了。
So how does this keep us safe from infection?
那么这如何保证我们免受感染呢？
As long as we're here-
只要我们还在这里-
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
what else is it doing to offset the 70% reduction in mitochondrial function?
它还能做什么来抵消线粒体功能 70% 的下降？
Because what we're talking about now is the role of melatonin within cells to lower temperature and reduce these reactive oxygen species.
因为我们现在讨论的是细胞内褪黑激素降低温度和减少这些活性氧的作用。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Does that somehow offset the reduction in mitochondria that normally occurs?
这是否以某种方式抵消了通常发生的线粒体减少？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
It does.
确实如此。
And so the increase in melatonin from infrared radiation going into the mitochondria is one aspect.
因此，进入线粒体的红外线辐射导致褪黑激素的增加是一方面。
There's a whole host of other aspects that occur.
还发生了许多其他方面。
There is cytochrome four oxidase.
有细胞色素四氧化酶。
Again, one of those enzymes in the electron transport chain can absorb infrared light.
同样，电子传递链中的其中一种酶可以吸收红外光。
There's nitric oxide.
有一氧化氮。
What the whole effect of this is, and the bottom line is, is that when you have red light to near-infrared light getting in that deep, there is a increase in the efficiency of the mitochondria.
其整体效果是，最重要的是，当红光到近红外光进入那么深的地方时，线粒体的效率就会增加。
So this is the key point because if, in fact, with the theory of mitochondrial aging, that we're having a decrease in the efficiency of the mitochondria as we get older, if there is something that we can do to reverse that or to at least prevent that from happening, that can have a tremendous impact in our health overall.
所以这是关键点，因为事实上，根据线粒体衰老理论，随着年龄的增长，我们的线粒体效率会下降，如果我们可以采取一些措施来扭转这种情况，或者至少防止这种情况发生，那么这会对我们的整体健康产生巨大影响。
So two points.
所以有两点。
One point about infrared light and its characteristic, and then number two, let's actually get to some data.
关于红外光及其特性的一点，然后第二点，让我们实际获取一些数据。
Because we're saying a bunch of things, but what we really need is evidence-based stuff.
因为我们说了很多东西，但我们真正需要的是基于证据的东西。
Okay, so the first thing, there's one other thing that I should mention about the effect of infrared light, especially in nature.
好的，首先，我还应该提到关于红外光的影响的另一件事，尤其是在自然界中。
And that is, is that not only can it penetrate through clothes, you may remember the Sony cam night vision thing back in the '90s, where Sony came up with a night vision camera that you could take pictures at night, and some enterprising youth, probably a man, figured out that you could use it during the day, and you could see through clothes.
也就是说，它不仅可以穿透衣服，你可能还记得90年代的索尼夜视相机，当时索尼推出了一款可以在晚上拍照的夜视相机，一些有进取心的年轻人，可能是一个男人，发现你可以在白天使用它，你可以看穿衣服。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And presumably, they took that off the market.
据推测，他们将其从市场上撤下了。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
They took it off the market pretty quick, yeah.
他们很快就把它从市场上撤下来了，是的。
But there's one other thing that's really important to understand, too, and that is, is that, believe it or not, but the leaves on trees and grass, anything with chlorophyll, is highly reflective of infrared light.
但还有一件事也非常重要，那就是，无论你相信与否，树木和草地上的叶子，任何含有叶绿素的东西，都高度反射红外光。
What that means is that if you go outside on a sunny day versus going outside on a sunny day surrounded by green spaces, you're going to get probably two, three, four times more infrared light in that environment than you would without that environment.
这意味着，如果您在阳光明媚的日子外出，而不是在周围有绿色空间的阳光明媚的日子外出，您在该环境中获得的红外光可能是没有该环境时的两倍、三倍、四倍。
You can check this out.
你可以检查一下。
You go to Google and just type in infrared photography and click images, and you will see any kind of infrared filtered light.
你去谷歌，只需输入红外摄影并点击图像，你就会看到任何类型的红外过滤光。
When it shows a tree or grass, it looks like it's lit up like it's got snow on it.
当它显示一棵树或一棵草时，它看起来就像被照亮了，就像上面有雪一样。
It's bright white.
它是亮白色的。
It's very reflective.
这是非常具有反思性的。
On a hot summer day, if you go outside and touch some object that's in the sun, it's going to be extremely hot.
在炎热的夏天，如果你走到外面，触摸到阳光下的某个物体，就会非常热。
Touch a leaf.
触摸一片叶子。
It's not hot at all.
一点也不热。
It's because it's reflecting that light.
这是因为它反射了光。
In fact, the coolest place in a garden on a hot summer day is where?
事实上，炎热的夏日花园里最凉爽的地方是哪里？
It's under a tree because all of that infrared light is being reflected off.
它位于树下，因为所有红外光都被反射掉。
So, and just to jump ahead here, but we know from years and decades of data that people who live in green spaces have reduced diabetes, reduced hypertension, reduced mortality, just living in green spaces.
因此，我们从多年和数十年的数据中得知，居住在绿色空间的人们只要生活在绿色空间，就能减少糖尿病、高血压和死亡率。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is it possible to tease away the effect from the other things associated with living-
是否有可能消除与生活相关的其他事物的影响——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in green spaces?
在绿色空间？
Because fortunately, our audience is trained to think scientifically, and they'll know, well, it's not necessarily causal.
因为幸运的是，我们的观众接受过科学思考的训练，他们会知道，这不一定是因果关系。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
People who live in green spaces tend to walk more.
居住在绿色空间的人们倾向于步行更多。
They tend to perhaps eat more fruits and vegetables, and on and on.
他们可能倾向于吃更多的水果和蔬菜，等等。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Correct.
正确。
So getting onto that, there was a study that was just done in Louisville, Kentucky.
因此，我们刚刚在肯塔基州路易斯维尔进行了一项研究。
Four square miles They measured everybody in that four square miles HSCRP.
四平方英里 他们测量了这四平方英里 HSCRP 中的每个人。
What's HSCRP?
什么是 HSCRP？
It's basically a surrogate marker for inflammation in the body.
它基本上是体内炎症的替代标志物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
And then they did this, they did something incredible.
然后他们做到了，他们做了一些令人难以置信的事情。
They brought in 8,000-plus trees, mature trees, and they planted those trees in that four square mile area.
他们引进了 8,000 多棵成熟的树木，并将这些树木种植在这四平方英里的区域内。
Took them about a year.
他们花了大约一年的时间。
Two to three years later, they went out.
两三年后，他们就出去了。
The income of these people living in this four square mile area did not change.
居住在这四平方英里地区的这些人的收入没有变化。
Presumably, they did not do any exercise programs in this area.
想必，他们并没有做过这方面的锻炼计划。
Everything was the same.
一切都一样。
The only thing they did was plant trees.
他们唯一做的就是植树。
And they went out and they rechecked everybody's highly sensitive CRP levels.
他们出去重新检查了每个人高度敏感的 CRP 水平。
They dropped by 13%.
他们下降了 13%。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
And that's about almost on the order of doing exercise three times a week.
这几乎相当于每周锻炼三次。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I should mention that CRP, C-reactive protein, has been associated with a number of blinding eye diseases, associated with inflammation, and basically everything bad you can imagine in every organ of the body, heart attack-
我应该提一下，CRP，即 C 反应蛋白，与许多致盲眼病、炎症以及基本上你能想象到的身体每个器官中的所有不良疾病（心脏病发作）有关。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Stroke
行程
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
ischemia.
缺血。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, this kind of thing.
是的，这种事。
Incredible.
极好的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So let's actually look at some data.
那么让我们实际看一些数据。
So we've talked about any astute person listening to this is like, "Okay, so you talked about a lot of observational stuff.
所以我们谈到任何精明的人听到这个都会说，“好吧，所以你谈论了很多观察性的东西。
Is there any interventional stuff?" So I turned to Glen Jeffery, who's in the Department of Ophthalmology, you know him well actually, at University College London.
有没有什么介入的东西？”所以我求助于伦敦大学学院眼科系的格伦·杰弗里（Glen Jeffery），你实际上很了解他。
And he's done some really interesting experiments in the last two to three years looking at red light.
在过去的两三年里，他针对红光做了一些非常有趣的实验。
The first one he did was he took older subjects who had difficulty with color sensitivity in their vision, and he exposed them to 670 nanometer, which is red, it's visible light, for just three minutes in the morning.
他做的第一个实验是，他让那些视力对色彩敏感度有困难的老年受试者，在早上将他们暴露在 670 纳米（红色、可见光）下仅三分钟。
It only worked in the morning in this case, which is interesting.
在这种情况下，它只在早上起作用，这很有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
And he showed that there was a 17% increase in color sensitivity that lasted for days.
他还表明，颜色敏感度提高了 17%，并持续数天。
Now why would that be?
为什么会这样呢？
Again, you should know that the retina is the one tissue in the human body that has the highest concentration of mitochondria.
同样，您应该知道，视网膜是人体中线粒体浓度最高的组织。
And if you understand what's going on in light, and I know you do, but our audience might not, is when you have visible light coming in to the retina, it is causing a photochemical reaction that requires a tremendous amount of energy.
如果你了解光中发生了什么，我知道你了解，但我们的观众可能不了解，当可见光进入视网膜时，它会引起需要大量能量的光化学反应。
Vesicles budding off, things diffusing, electrical conductions, and it has to happen very, very quickly, otherwise what you see is going to be there as a blur.
囊泡萌芽、物质扩散、导电，这些都必须非常非常快地发生，否则你看到的东西将会变得模糊。
So this is constantly being updated.
所以这个是不断更新的。
So it's no surprise that mitochondria is so concentrated there.
因此，线粒体如此集中在那里也就不足为奇了。
So what's actually going on there?
那么到底发生了什么？
What we believe is going on is that this red light is actually stimulating these mitochondria to produce more ATP, and it's improving the sensitivity.
我们相信，这种红光实际上是在刺激这些线粒体产生更多的 ATP，并且提高了灵敏度。
But the coup de grâce or the pièce de la résistance was his next study which he did, where he took 30 subjects, he gave them 75 grams of glucose, and in a blinded way, so they couldn't tell if the light was on or off, he exposed their backs to the same 670 nanometer light, and he monitored their glucose over time, over the next two hours, basically, multiple points.
但最致命的一击是他的下一项研究，他对 30 名受试者进行了研究，给他们 75 克葡萄糖，以一种盲法，让他们无法分辨灯是开还是关，他将他们的背部暴露在同样的 670 纳米光下，并在接下来的两个小时内，基本上是多点监测他们的血糖。
And what did he find?
他发现了什么？
He found that those that were exposed to red light and didn't know it had lower glucose concentrations.
他发现那些暴露在红光下但不知道红光的人的葡萄糖浓度较低。
So he surmised that the mitochondria were working more efficiently, they were using up more energy, and this is the reason why the glucose didn't peak as high.
因此他推测线粒体工作效率更高，消耗了更多能量，这就是葡萄糖没有达到那么高峰值的原因。
But he couldn't be sure unless he also monitored for the output of metabolism.
但他无法确定，除非他还监测新陈代谢的输出。
So what happens when the mitochondria is working?
那么当线粒体工作时会发生什么呢？
It's making carbon dioxide, so he also measured carbon dioxide.
它会产生二氧化碳，所以他也测量了二氧化碳。
And sure enough, those subjects that had the intervention of the red light had statistically significantly higher carbon dioxide levels on exhalation.
果然，那些接受红光干预的受试者呼气时的二氧化碳水平在统计上显着较高。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Awesome.
太棒了。
Too bad the guy's in England.
可惜这家伙在英国。
That's a joke for my British friends.
这对我的英国朋友来说是一个笑话。
Yeah, it tends to be very overcast there, but the sun-
是的，那里往往是阴天，但是阳光——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes, yeah
是的，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
does come out in England as well.
在英国也出现了。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
So here we have, basically, this is a randomized controlled intervention trial, which showed that red light's doing this.
所以，基本上，这是一项随机对照干预试验，表明红灯可以做到这一点。
And there's a whole host of other trials that show the same thing.
还有大量其他试验也表明了同样的情况。
So when I started to see this in my patients, and what caused me to even do this, you might ask, what's a pulmonary critical care doc talking about mitochondria in the eye?
因此，当我开始在我的患者身上看到这种情况时，以及是什么原因导致我这样做时，您可能会问，肺部重症监护医生谈论眼中的线粒体是什么？
What really spurred me on to look at this was when I was in the middle of something called the COVID pandemic, and I was seeing patients in my ICU that were dying.
真正促使我关注这个问题的是当我正处于新冠疫情大流行期间，我看到重症监护室里的病人正在死去。
And what were they dying of?
他们又是因什么而死的呢？
COVID.
冠状病毒。
But what were they in there for?
但他们在那里干什么？
They had things like diabetes, hypertension, dementia, all of these things which have at the root of them mitochondrial dysfunction.
他们患有糖尿病、高血压、痴呆症，所有这些疾病的根源都是线粒体功能障碍。
So what we have is an epidemic, I believe, of mitochondrial dysfunction, and how are we going to repair that?
我认为，我们现在面临的是线粒体功能障碍的流行病，我们该如何修复它呢？
I think sunlight is one of the ways to do it, so I started looking around at the evidence.
我认为阳光是实现这一目标的方法之一，所以我开始四处寻找证据。
There was a study that was done, Oxford and the University of Leiden in the Netherlands, where they looked at about 10,000 subjects.
牛津大学和荷兰莱顿大学进行了一项研究，他们调查了大约 10,000 名受试者。
They just drew their blood and they said, "Let's just check triglycerides and insulin sensitivity." And then what they did was they looked over the previous 10 days at the weather report, and they were able to show that by the hour, the more sunlight that there was in the previous seven days, that actually predicted an improvement in insulin sensitivity and a reduction in triglycerides.
他们只是抽了血，然后说：“让我们检查一下甘油三酯和胰岛素敏感性。”然后他们所做的是查看过去 10 天的天气预报，他们能够显示，按小时计算，过去 7 天的阳光越多，实际上预示着胰岛素敏感性的改善和甘油三酯的降低。
That fast, over a seven-day period of time.
这么快，足足有七天的时间。
There was another study that was done.
还进行了另一项研究。
This was in Sweden.
这是在瑞典。
So this was an epidemiological study, but maybe actually showed some causation.
所以这是一项流行病学研究，但也许实际上显示了一些因果关系。
They looked at Swedish women, it was about 30,000 Swedish women living in Sweden at the time, of course, and they divided them into three groups, those that avoided the sun, those that got moderate sun exposure And those that got a lot of sun exposure.
他们观察了瑞典女性，当然，当时居住在瑞典的瑞典女性大约有 3 万名，他们将她们分为三组，一组避免阳光照射，一组受到适度阳光照射，一组受到大量阳光照射。
And what they showed after following them for 20 years, so a long period of time, was that those women that were out in the sun not only had lower all-cause mortality, but they also had lower cardiovascular mortality.
经过 20 年（这么长的一段时间）的跟踪研究，他们发现，那些经常晒太阳的女性不仅全因死亡率较低，而且心血管死亡率也较低。
And what's really interesting is they had lower cancer mortality, and it was in a dose-response curve, which suggests, Bradford Hill criteria, that there is maybe some causation here.
真正有趣的是，他们的癌症死亡率较低，而且处于剂量反应曲线中，这表明，布拉德福德希尔标准，这里可能存在某种因果关系。
What was really interesting about that study is that they looked at smoking.
这项研究真正有趣的是他们研究了吸烟。
So what was the difference here?
那么这里有什么区别呢？
It wasn't a small difference.
这差别不小。
It was actually such a large difference that the sunlight made that they were able to show that those women in Sweden who were in this study, who went out into the sun avidly and smoked, had the same mortality as those women who avoided the sun and didn't smoke.
事实上，阳光造成的差异是如此之大，以至于他们能够证明，参与这项研究的瑞典女性，那些热衷于晒太阳并吸烟的女性，与那些避免阳光照射且不吸烟的女性的死亡率相同。
The first thing that hit my mind was is what do we do to people here in this country that want to smoke?
我想到的第一件事是我们该如何对待这个国家想要吸烟的人？
We tell them to go outside.
我们告诉他们到外面去。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not encouraging people to smoke.
我并不是鼓励人们吸烟。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Me-
我-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Clearly the best outcomes-
显然最好的结果是——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
are going to be from not smoking-
将会来自不吸烟-
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Of course
当然
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and from getting sunlight.
并避免受到阳光照射。
But it is-
但它是——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a remarkable study.
一项非凡的研究。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Certainly.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Smoking would be under the T for temperance.
为了节制，吸烟将在 T 之下。
That would be where I would put a new start.
那将是我新的开始的地方。
We would not want to do that.
我们不想那样做。
But that same study was repeated basically again, University of Edinburgh.
但爱丁堡大学基本上再次重复了同样的研究。
They did a biobank study.
他们做了一项生物样本库研究。
Ten times the amount of people, 400,000.
十倍的人数，四十万。
Repeated the study, showed exactly the same, both men and women.
重复研究，结果显示完全相同，无论男性还是女性。
Except this time, they actually measured UVA.
只不过这一次，他们实际上测量了 UVA。
So they used ultraviolet A radiation as a surrogate for infrared and for sunlight in general.
因此，他们使用紫外线 A 辐射作为红外线和一般太阳光的替代品。
They found exactly the same thing, reduction in mortality.
他们发现了完全相同的事情：死亡率降低。
Such so is the evidence that even dermatologists are starting to rethink.
证据表明，就连皮肤科医生也开始重新思考。
There was an article that was published in "The Journal of Investigative Dermatology" by Richard Weller, and the name of that article was published last year.
Richard Weller 在《The Journal of Investigative Dermatology》上发表了一篇文章，这篇文章的名字是去年发表的。
It was titled "Sunlight: Time for a Rethink."
它的标题是“阳光：重新思考的时候了”。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
And he said, "Look, there are societies that are seeing this, and they're already saying that there's a potential benefit for getting out into the sun."
他说，“看，有些社会已经看到了这一点，他们已经说，晒太阳有潜在的好处。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
The dermatologist that I hosted on this podcast, Dr. Tio Soleimani, also happens to be a derm oncologist, so his specialty is skin cancers.
我在这个播客中主持的皮肤科医生 Tio Soleimani 博士也恰好是皮肤肿瘤学家，所以他的专长是皮肤癌。
And I was surprised to learn, but we've talked about it several times now offline as well, Tio and I.
我很惊讶地得知，但我们已经在线下讨论过好几次了，Tio 和我。
I was surprised to learn that the sunlight-induced cancers of the skin, while they do exist, that's real, right?
我很惊讶地发现阳光诱发的皮肤癌虽然确实存在，但这是真实存在的，对吧？
You get too much UV-
你受到了太多的紫外线——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Of course
当然
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
exposure, you're going to age your skin more rapidly.
暴露在外，你的皮肤会加速老化。
You're going to increase the likelihood that you'll get a skin cancer.
你会增加患皮肤癌的可能性。
However, this was really surprising to me.
然而，这确实让我感到惊讶。
According to him, there is no evidence that sunlight induces the deadly types of cancers like melanoma.
据他介绍，没有证据表明阳光会诱发黑色素瘤等致命癌症。
Those are more genetically determined.
这些更多是由基因决定的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's not to say that sunlight can't damage skin, but it is really interesting that more and more data, and clinical trials included, are pointing to exactly what you're saying, which is that more sunlight exposure is beneficial.
这并不是说阳光不会损害皮肤，但有趣的是，越来越多的数据，包括临床试验，都准确地指出了你所说的，即更多的阳光照射是有益的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the risks of sunlight exposure can largely be offset by limiting your exposure to excessive UV.
通过限制过多的紫外线照射，可以在很大程度上抵消阳光照射的风险。
And it's pretty easy nowadays with any app, a lot of zero-cost apps out there.
如今，使用任何应用程序都非常容易，有很多零成本应用程序。
I can put links to one or two in the show note captions that I like that have no affiliation to whatsoever, by the way, will tell you when the UV index is highest.
我可以在节目注释标题中添加一两个链接，这些标题与我喜欢的没有任何关系，顺便说一句，它会告诉您紫外线指数何时最高。
It's in the middle of the day, typically.
通常是在中午。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so it's possible to get plenty of sunlight on your skin without exposing yourself to excessive UV.
因此，您的皮肤可以获得充足的阳光，而不会暴露在过多的紫外线下。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah, and I'd even take it a step further because we know that a single layer of clothing is pretty good at blocking ultraviolet lights, right?
是的，我什至会更进一步，因为我们知道单层衣服可以很好地阻挡紫外线，对吧？
But remember we talked about infrared.
但请记住我们谈论的是红外线。
Infrared can penetrate through.
红外线可以穿透。
So if someone is fair-skinned and they're concerned about getting skin damage, wear a broad-rimmed hat.
因此，如果某人皮肤白皙并且担心皮肤受损，请戴一顶宽边帽子。
Put a long-sleeved shirt on, but get outside because that's where the infrared, especially if you're around green shrubs and leaves and things, because those get a lot of infrared light.
穿上长袖衬衫，但要到外面去，因为那里有红外线，特别是当你周围有绿色灌木和树叶之类的东西时，因为它们会吸收大量的红外线。
We know that green spaces are beneficial in terms of that.
我们知道绿色空间在这方面是有益的。
And we've talked about Louisville, Kentucky, that there's a benefit there just by putting the tree there.
我们已经讨论过肯塔基州路易斯维尔，只要把树放在那里就有好处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love those data.
我喜欢这些数据。
I'd like to take a quick break and thank our sponsor, AG1.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。
AG1 is an all-in-one vitamin, mineral, probiotic drink with adaptogens.
AG1 是一种含有适应原的一体化维生素、矿物质、益生菌饮料。
I've been taking AG1 daily since 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring this podcast.
自 2012 年以来，我每天都服用 AG1，所以我很高兴他们赞助这个播客。
The reason I started taking AG1, and the reason I still take AG1, is because it is the highest quality and most complete foundational nutritional supplement.
我开始服用 AG1 的原因，以及我仍然服用 AG1 的原因，是因为它是最高品质和最完整的基础营养补充剂。
What that means is that AG1 ensures that you're getting all the necessary vitamins, minerals, and other micronutrients to form a strong foundation for your daily health.
这意味着 AG1 可确保您获得所有必需的维生素、矿物质和其他微量营养素，为您的日常健康奠定坚实的基础。
AG1 also has probiotics and prebiotics that support a healthy gut microbiome.
AG1 还含有支持健康肠道微生物群的益生菌和益生元。
Your gut microbiome consists of trillions of microorganisms that line your digestive tract and impact things such as your immune system status, your metabolic health, your hormone health, and much more.
您的肠道微生物组由数万亿微生物组成，这些微生物排列在您的消化道中，并影响您的免疫系统状态、代谢健康、激素健康等。
So I've consistently found that when I take AG1 daily, my digestion is improved, my immune system is more robust, and my mood and mental focus are at their best.
因此，我一直发现，当我每天服用 AG1 时，我的消化能力得到改善，我的免疫系统更加强大，我的情绪和精神集中度也处于最佳状态。
In fact, if I could take just one supplement, that supplement would be AG1.
事实上，如果我只能服用一种补充剂，那么该补充剂就是 AG1。
If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。
They'll give you five free travel packs plus a year's supply of vitamin D3 K2 with your order of AG1.
您订购 AG1 时，他们将赠送您五个免费旅行包以及一年的维生素 D3 K2。
Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim this special offer.
请再次访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 领取此特别优惠。
Today's episode is also brought to us by LMNT.
今天的节目也是LMNT给我们带来的。
LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need, but nothing you don't.
LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您所需的一切，但没有您不需要的。
That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar.
这意味着电解质、钠、镁和钾的比例都正确，但不含糖。
Proper hydration is critical for optimal brain and body function.
适当的水合作用对于大脑和身体的最佳功能至关重要。
Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish cognitive and physical performance.
即使是轻微程度的脱水也会降低认知和身体表现。
It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes.
获得充足的电解质也很重要。
The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are vital for the functioning of all the cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells.
电解质（钠、镁和钾）对于体内所有细胞（尤其是神经元或神经细胞）的功能至关重要。
Drinking LMNT dissolved in water makes it extremely easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes.
饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT 可以非常轻松地确保您获得足够的水分和电解质。
To make sure that I'm getting proper amounts of hydration and electrolytes, I dissolve one packet of LMNT in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I wake up in the morning, and I drink that basically first thing in the morning.
为了确保我获得适量的水合作用和电解质，当我早上醒来时，我将一包 LMNT 溶解在大约 16 至 32 盎司的水中，并且我基本上早上第一件事就是喝它。
I also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot, and therefore losing a lot of water and electrolytes.
我还会在进行任何体育锻炼时饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT，尤其是在炎热的日子里，当我大量出汗时，会损失大量的水和电解质。
They have a bunch of different great-tasting flavors of LMNT.
他们有多种不同口味的 LMNT。
They have watermelon, citrus, et cetera.
他们有西瓜、柑橘等。
Frankly, I love them all.
坦白说，我爱他们所有人。
If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with the purchase of any LMNT drink mix.
如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman，购买任何 LMNT 混合饮料即可领取免费 LMNT 样品包。
Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.
再次强调，请访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman 索取免费样品包。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
In terms of your original question, which is getting back to influenza or flus or things.
就你最初的问题而言，回到流感或流感之类的问题。
So there's a great study that I always love to talk about in terms of this, and it was actually done by Harvard.
因此，我一直喜欢谈论一项很棒的研究，它实际上是由哈佛大学完成的。
It was a Harvard Kennedy School, which is not the medical school.
那是哈佛大学肯尼迪学院，而不是医学院。
This is the public policy politics school.
这是公共政策政治学校。
And what they did was they looked at this very question of influenza, and why do we always get it in the wintertime, and what's potentially beneficial for it.
他们所做的就是研究流感这个问题，为什么我们总是在冬天感染流感，以及什么可能对其有益。
And the problem is, is that we always have this influenza season, which is in the wintertime.
问题是，我们总是有流感季节，这是在冬天。
We can talk about why that might be.
我们可以谈谈为什么会这样。
I would suggest to you that it's because that's when we have the shortest day of the year.
我建议你这是因为那是我们一年中白天最短的时候。
But we also have other things that happen at that time, right?
但当时我们还发生了其他事情，对吧？
What else is happening?
还有什么事情发生？
We're having parties at that time.
那时我们正在举办聚会。
There's Thanksgiving.
还有感恩节。
There's New Year's.
有新年了。
It's cold.
是冷的。
Does the temperature have anything to do with it?
跟温度有关系吗？
We're also inside because it's cold.
我们也在里面，因为天气很冷。
So what is it that's actually doing it?
那么到底是什么在做这件事呢？
Well, 2009 was a banner year because 2009 was the year that we had the H1N1 pandemic, and that was a boon for us.
嗯，2009 年是标志性的一年，因为 2009 年我们发生了 H1N1 大流行，这对我们来说是一个福音。
The reason is, is because, not because of the deaths that we had, but from a scientific standpoint, this epidemic actually peaked in the summertime, and it was in areas where the humidity was sometimes high and sometimes it was low, and sometimes the temperature was high, sometimes the temperature was low.
原因是因为,不是因为我们的死亡人数,而是从科学的角度来看,这个疫情实际上是在夏季达到高峰,而且是在湿度有时高有时低、有时气温有时高、有时气温低的地区。
Sometimes the sun was out.
有时太阳出来了。
Sometimes it was cloudy.
有时是阴天。
In other words, we uncoupled the influenza virus in 2009 from it being in the wintertime and all of those things that were associated.
换句话说，我们将 2009 年的流感病毒与冬季的流感病毒以及所有相关的事情分开了。
So now we have all of these data points.
现在我们有了所有这些数据点。
And so Harvard went to work at looking at all these data points.
因此，哈佛大学开始研究所有这些数据点。
They looked at solar radiation data at that time, and they were actually able to look specifically where that person came from and what was the solar radiation in that particular area.
他们查看当时的太阳辐射数据，实际上能够具体查看那个人来自哪里以及该特定区域的太阳辐射是多少。
And what they came up with was absolutely.
他们想出的绝对是。
They said, quote, "Sunlight strongly protects against getting influenza."
他们说，“阳光可以有效预防流感。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
It was an amazing study.
这是一项了不起的研究。
I'm reminded of a study that was published in COVID.
我想起了《新冠肺炎》杂志上发表的一项研究。
This was published in 2021, and it was looking at this very question.
这篇文章发表于 2021 年，正是针对这个问题。
Is it temperature?
是温度吗？
Is it humidity?
是湿度吗？
Or is it sunlight?
还是阳光？
So what they did was they looked at the autumn surge of COVID in the wintertime in Europe, in autumn actually.
因此，他们所做的就是观察欧洲冬季（实际上是秋季）新冠病毒秋季激增的情况。
And they asked this question.
他们问了这个问题。
When there was the surge date in this country, whatever country it was in Europe, when did it happen, and what were the things that caused it to happen?
当这个国家出现激增日期时，无论是在欧洲哪个国家，它是什么时候发生的，以及是什么原因导致它发生的？
So they put all the data out there for temperature, and it was a flat line.
所以他们把所有的温度数据都放在那里，结果是一条平线。
Temperature did not predict which country, how the country got COVID-19 when the surge started to happen.
当激增开始发生时，温度并不能预测哪个国家、该国家如何感染 COVID-19。
They did the same thing for humidity.
他们对湿度做了同样的事情。
Flat line.
平线。
When they got to latitude, it was a perfect correlation.
当他们到达纬度时，这是一个完美的相关性。
In other words, as the sun in the wintertime started to peel back off of the northern hemisphere and started to sink below the equator, and when there was a critical period of time that the day shortened to the point where at first Finland got the shortest day, or a short enough day, and then Germany, and then further on.
换句话说，当冬季的太阳开始从北半球剥落并开始沉入赤道以下时，当出现白昼缩短的关键时期时，首先是芬兰获得了最短的白昼，或者说白昼足够短，然后是德国，然后再进一步。
What it showed was latitude actually perfectly predicted when the surge dates would happen.
它显示的是纬度实际上完美地预测了激增日期的发生时间。
Starting off with Finland and ending up with Greece at the bottom.
从芬兰开始，到垫底的希腊结束。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Do you see influenza at the equator?
你在赤道看到流感吗？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
You do see certainly influenza at the equator.
你确实在赤道上看到了流感。
But what's really interesting about that is that if you look at, for instance, the influenza mortality in the United States, obviously in the northern hemisphere, what you will see is you will see it peak generally one to three weeks after the shortest day of the year.
但真正有趣的是，例如，如果你看看美国（显然是在北半球）的流感死亡率，你会发现它通常会在一年中最短的一天之后一到三周达到峰值。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Which is around now in December and January.
现在大约是十二月和一月。
Now, if you look at Australia, what do you think you'd see?
现在，如果你看看澳大利亚，你认为你会看到什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The inverse.
反之。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
It's actually in Australia, the influenza season peaks late June, early July.
实际上在澳大利亚，流感季节在六月底七月初达到高峰。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
So if you now go look at something like Singapore.
所以如果你现在去看看像新加坡这样的国家。
Singapore is, I think, within 100 miles of the equator.
我认为新加坡距赤道不到 100 英里。
You will see that in Singapore, there's influenza peaks and troughs, but it's not seasonal.
你会发现在新加坡，流感有高峰和低谷，但它不是季节性的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
It's just almost random.
这几乎是随机的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is it not the case that in hospitals and other recovery wards, as it were, that there used to be classically there was a ...
难道不是在医院和其他康复病房里，过去传统上有一个......
a habit of putting people out into the sun, like sun decks on the roof of hospitals and things of that sort.
将人们放在阳光下的习惯，例如医院屋顶上的阳光甲板之类的东西。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
I'm smiling because you're absolutely correct.
我微笑是因为你完全正确。
And as I started to go through this and look at this, I started saying to myself, "We need to get people out in the sun." And then I realized not only am I not the only one saying this, but certainly this was being done 100 years ago, 150 years ago.
当我开始经历并审视这一点时，我开始对自己说：“我们需要让人们出去晒太阳。”然后我意识到，不仅我不是唯一一个这么说的人，而且 100 年前、150 年前肯定有人这样做过。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just as a speculation-
就如猜测一样——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
why do you think we've migrated away from this, frankly, basic biochemical cellular understanding of how the sun can benefit us?
坦率地说，您认为为什么我们已经偏离了对太阳如何使我们受益的基本生化细胞理解？
I feel like so much attention has been paid to how the sun can damage our skin and, quote-unquote, "give us skin cancer," that perhaps we overshot the mark.
我觉得人们对太阳如何损害我们的皮肤以及“导致我们皮肤癌”的关注如此之多，以至于我们可能有些过分了。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
I think it has to do with scientific reductionism.
我认为这与科学还原论有关。
And what I mean to say by that is we've had a lot of data that shows that ultraviolet light can cause cancer, and so we've assumed that anything that has ultraviolet light can cause cancer.
我的意思是说，我们有大量数据表明紫外线会导致癌症，因此我们假设任何含有紫外线的东西都会导致癌症。
There's this complete dismissal of the fact that this ultraviolet light is packaged for the entire existence of human nature along with infrared light.
人们完全否认了这样一个事实：紫外线与红外线一起存在于整个人性中。
And it's a beautiful thing when you start to look at this, because you start to realize that we never get blue light or ultraviolet light ever without the presence of infrared light.
当你开始看到这一点时，这是一件很美好的事情，因为你开始意识到，如果没有红外线的存在，我们永远不会得到蓝光或紫外线。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Unless it comes from an artificial source.
除非它来自人工来源。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So this is really the first time-
所以这真的是第一次——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Exactly
正是如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in human history that we've had this preponderance of short wavelength, AKA blue and green light in the absence of red light.
在人类历史上，我们在没有红光的情况下拥有短波长的优势，即蓝光和绿光。
In fact-
事实上——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
maybe we should just spend a couple of moments talking about what kind of sunlight exposures you recommend for people, depending on time of year.
也许我们应该花一些时间讨论一下您建议人们接受什么样的阳光照射，具体取决于一年中的不同时间。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then after that, I'd like to talk to you briefly about this shift away from incandescent bulbs-
然后，我想和大家简单谈谈白炽灯泡的转变——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Oh, yes
哦，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to indoor lighting with LEDs.
到 LED 室内照明。
But just to make sure that I don't move us along before providing some of the key takeaways-
但为了确保在提供一些关键要点之前我不会让我们继续前进——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
how much sunlight should we get each day in the shorter days of winter and in the fall, and when should this be done?
在白天较短的冬季和秋季，我们每天应该接受多少阳光？应该何时进行？
In the Jeffrey study, it was clear that there was circadian regulation, as you mentioned, getting that red light, infrared light into one's eyes early in the day was important.
在杰弗里的研究中，很明显存在昼夜节律调节，正如您提到的，在一天早些时候将红光、红外光射入眼睛非常重要。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If I'm living a standard life of work and job, and people are managing kids and all sorts of things, sometimes it's hard to get into the sunlight because you're just following a schedule.
如果我过着标准的工作和工作生活，而人们要照顾孩子和各种各样的事情，有时就很难接触到阳光，因为你只是遵循时间表。
How much time each day do you recommend, independent of anything related to getting sunlight in one's eyes for circadian rhythm setting?
您建议每天花多少时间（与设置昼夜节律时让阳光照射眼睛无关）？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So how much time, what time of day-
那么多少时间，一天中的什么时间-
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and what frequency across the week?
一周的频率是多少？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Excellent question, and you've hit on exactly the issue.
很好的问题，你已经切中了这个问题。
Based on Glenn Jeffrey's studies, based on another study that was actually done in Brazil, it was actually an interventional study in COVID that showed that just 15 minutes a day for seven days was enough to actually get people with COVID out of the hospital faster.
根据格伦·杰弗里 (Glenn Jeffrey) 的研究，基于另一项在巴西实际进行的研究，这实际上是一项针对新冠病毒的干预研究，该研究表明，每天只需 15 分钟，持续 7 天就足以让新冠病毒感染者更快地出院。
This was a randomized, placebo, controlled, double-blinded, amazing study.
这是一项令人惊叹的随机、安慰剂、对照、双盲研究。
940 nanometers.
940纳米。
So when I talk to Glenn Jeffrey about this, he says he sees it in humans, he sees it in bees, he sees it in insects.
因此，当我与格伦·杰弗里谈论这一点时，他说他在人类、蜜蜂和昆虫身上看到了这一点。
It's all the same.
都是一样的。
The mitochondria behave exactly the same.
线粒体的行为完全相同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When you say 940 nanometers, you're talking about long wavelength light coming from an artificial source?
当您说 940 纳米时，您是在谈论来自人造光源的长波长光吗？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
That was 940, and it was actually very low.
那是940，实际上很低。
It was about 2.9 milliwatts per square centimeter.
约为每平方厘米 2.9 毫瓦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So lower energy.
所以能量较低。
Most people-
大多数人——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
are not going to own a red, a far-red, or an infrared light.
不会拥有红光、远红光或红外光。
So-
所以——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I just want to emphasize again for people, you can get that wavelength and all the other relevant wavelengths from the sun.
我只是想再次向人们强调，你可以从太阳获得该波长和所有其他相关波长。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's your red light therapy, folks.
伙计们，这就是你们的红光疗法。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
And this is what I'm trying to say, this is not some powerful laser that they were using.
这就是我想说的，这不是他们使用的强大激光。
This is 2.9 milliwatts.
这是2.9毫瓦。
Sunlight, all sunlight is about 100 milliwatts per centimeter squared.
阳光，所有阳光大约为每平方厘米100毫瓦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
By the time it reaches at-
当它到达-
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Through the atmosphere.
穿过大气层。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Through the atmosphere.
穿过大气层。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So 130 when it hits the atmosphere.
当它进入大气层时是130。
By the time it hits you, it's about 100.
当它击中你时，它大约是100。
If you're looking at just infrared light, we're talking about 20 milliwatts per square centimeter.
如果您只观察红外光，我们谈论的是每平方厘米 20 毫瓦。
And so this was 2.9 at a very specific wavelength, so something that's completely doable.
所以在一个非常特定的波长下这个值是 2.9，所以这是完全可行的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Okay?
好吧？
And so what they did, it was 15 minutes a day for seven days.
所以他们就是这么做的，每天 15 分钟，持续 7 天。
And what Glenn Jeffrey was telling me is that, he says, "Roger, it doesn't matter if it's in insects, if it's in bees, if it's in humans.
格伦·杰弗里告诉我的是，他说：“罗杰，无论是昆虫、蜜蜂还是人类，都没关系。
Once you hit a certain point, 15, 20 minutes, diminishing marginal utility." The improvement after that point is so minimal that you only need about 15 to 20 minutes.
一旦达到某个点，15、20 分钟，边际效用就会递减。”此后的改善非常小，您只需要大约 15 到 20 分钟。
That's why he was able to do his experiment in the eye, about three minutes was all that was necessary.
这就是为什么他能够在眼睛上做实验，大约三分钟就够了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So is this 15 minutes outside in the first three hours of your conventional day, as I call it?
那么这 15 分钟是我所说的传统一天的前三个小时中的户外活动吗？
Because people will say, well, the sun comes up later this hour.
因为人们会说，好吧，太阳在这个小时晚些时候升起。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Conventional day, meaning after the sun has crossed the horizon, has risen.
传统日，即太阳越过地平线后，即已升起。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
I don't think it matters.
我认为这并不重要。
I don't really think it matters.
我真的认为这并不重要。
I think what would matter is if there's a lot of ultraviolet light, which would be when the sun is high, and for people who are skin sensitive, that could be an issue.
我认为重要的是如果有很多紫外线，那就是在太阳很高的时候，对于皮肤敏感的人来说，这可能是一个问题。
But if you're covering up, it doesn't matter.
但如果你掩盖了，那也没关系。
And here's the issue.
这就是问题所在。
The issue is that when you need it the most in the wintertime is when it's the hardest to get.
问题是，冬天你最需要它的时候，也是最难得到它的时候。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
So you really have to make a concerted effort.
所以你真的必须齐心协力。
And for a lot of people, and this is what happens probably right after November and probably going through to mid-January, is this is what happens.
对于很多人来说，这可能会在 11 月之后发生，并且可能会一直持续到 1 月中旬，这就是所发生的情况。
People get up in the morning, they go to their car, they get into their car, they drive to work.
人们早上起床，上车，上车，开车去上班。
The sun's not up yet.
太阳还没有升起。
They get to their work.
他们开始工作。
The sun comes up, but they're inside.
太阳出来了，但他们还在里面。
Then what happens is they get done with work.
然后发生的事情就是他们完成工作。
The sun is already down.
太阳已经落山了。
They come home from work.
他们下班回家。
And so there literally is weeks on end that occur where they're not even getting 15 minutes of sunlight, and I think this is the reason why we have the influenza surge at this time.
因此，实际上连续几周他们甚至都没有得到 15 分钟的阳光，我认为这就是我们此时流感激增的原因。
If you look to see, the EPA did a study, and they looked at Americans.
如果你仔细观察，美国环保局做了一项研究，他们以美国人为对象。
93% of our time is spent inside.
我们93%的时间都在室内度过。
86% inside a building, 6% to 7% inside of a vehicle.
86% 在建筑物内，6% 到 7% 在车辆内。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this is a relatively new thing.
这是一个相对较新的事情。
Certainly when I was growing up-
当然，在我成长的过程中——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
if I came home and had a snack after school, I was getting kicked out of the house-
如果我放学后回家吃零食，我就会被赶出家门——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to go outside.
到外面去。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was routine for parents to tell kids they had to go outside.
父母告诉孩子们必须出去是例行公事。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think it's also the case, as you mentioned, that we're working later, or at least on devices later into the evening.
我认为，正如您提到的，我们会在晚些时候工作，或者至少在晚上晚些时候在设备上工作。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which means there's more exposure to short wavelength light from devices and artificial sources.
这意味着人们会更多地接触来自设备和人造光源的短波长光。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
So my recommendation, which is what the original question was, is take your lunch break outside.
所以我的建议，也就是最初的问题，是在外面吃午饭。
It's something as simple as getting outside, even if it's at lunchtime.
这就像出去一样简单，即使是在午餐时间。
Yes, the ultraviolet is probably the highest at that point, but if that's the only time that you're going to get sunlight, take it.
是的，此时紫外线可能是最高的，但如果这是您唯一能接触到阳光的时间，那就接受吧。
Now, I can say this, I live in Southern California.
现在，我可以这么说，我住在南加州。
I'm blessed by 300 and some odd days of sunlight every year.
我每年都有 300 天和一些奇怪的阳光照射。
What do you do when you're in Boston?
当你在波士顿时你会做什么？
What do you do if you're in New York?
如果你在纽约，你会做什么？
What do you do if you're in England, in Sweden, and these places where there isn't a lot of light?
如果你在英国、瑞典这些光线不足的地方，你会怎么做？
Well, there's a study that was done looking at infrared lamps, right?
嗯，有一项针对红外灯的研究，对吗？
So you've got to be careful there, because if the infrared lamps are too high in amplitude, this result from infrared light in the body is something known as a biphasic response, and that's really important to understand.
所以你必须小心，因为如果红外灯的振幅太高，红外光在体内产生的结果就是所谓的双相反应，理解这一点非常重要。
Don't come into this if you're going to get a red light therapy and think that more is better, because more may not be better.
如果您要接受红光治疗并认为越多越好，请不要参与其中，因为更多可能并不更好。
You actually could do detriment if you have the red light at too high of a level.
如果红灯亮度太高，实际上可能会造成损害。
So I would match it to what we're getting from the sun.
所以我会把它与我们从太阳得到的东西相匹配。
As you said, the sunlight is your best infrared or red lamp.
正如您所说，阳光是最好的红外线或红光灯。
So there was a study that was done looking at wellbeing, and they did a red light lamp, infrared light, so it was coupled with 850, I think was the nanometer.
所以有一项关于健康的研究，他们做了红光灯、红外线，所以它与 850 结合在一起，我认为是纳米。
So that is definitely in the infrared spectrum.
所以这肯定是在红外光谱中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, you can't see that.
是的，你看不到这一点。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Cannot see it.
看不到它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
And they had it set up at a desk that some guy was sitting in front of for four hours a day for eight weeks, and they did this study, and they did it in the summertime, and they did it in the wintertime, and this is really telling.
他们把它放在一张桌子上，有人在桌子前坐了八个星期，每天四个小时，他们做了这项研究，他们在夏天做，他们在冬天做，这真的很有说服力。
There was no effect on the subject when they looked at those that had it in the summertime.
当他们观察那些在夏季有这种现象的人时，并没有对这个主题产生任何影响。
I would say probably because they were getting plenty of infrared light-
我想说可能是因为他们获得了大量的红外线-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
...
...
elsewhere.
其他地方。
They only showed a statistically significant effect in the wintertime.
它们仅在冬季表现出统计上显着的效果。
And so if you look at influenza, or even go beyond that, look at a chart of the United States throughout the entire year and look at all of the natural causes of death, not just influenza and pneumonia.
因此，如果你看流感，甚至更进一步，看一下美国全年的图表，看看所有自然死亡原因，而不仅仅是流感和肺炎。
Look at cardiac disease, look at kidney disease, Alzheimer's disease.
看看心脏病，看看肾病，阿尔茨海默病。
All of those deaths go up all at the same time, and they all go up about one to three weeks after the shortest day of the year, and they all come down, and they all are at the nadir about one to three weeks after the longest day of the year.
所有这些死亡人数都同时上升，在一年中最短的一天之后大约一到三周，它们都上升，并且在一年中最长的一天之后大约一到三周，它们都下降到最低点。
When you see that and you just start to just digest what you're seeing there, and then you start to understand that infrared light from the sun, which we have filtered out with LEDs and all this, and we can get to that, all of that's gone.
当你看到它时，你开始消化你在那里看到的东西，然后你开始理解来自太阳的红外光，我们已经用 LED 和所有这些过滤掉了它，我们可以做到这一点，所有这些都消失了。
That we're spending 93% of our time indoors.
我们 93% 的时间都在室内度过。
Put that all together, and the fact that infrared light helps the mitochondria, and the fact that the mitochondria is at the core of all of these chronic diseases that we're battling, it really wakes you up, and you start to realize that maybe the lowest hanging fruit that we can do right now today, for literally no money, is simply to just work on getting more sun exposure in the wintertime.
综上所述，红外线对线粒体有帮助，而线粒体是我们正在对抗的所有这些慢性疾病的核心，它真的让你警醒，你开始意识到，也许我们现在能做的最容易实现的目标，实际上不需要钱，就是努力在冬天获得更多的阳光照射。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Two questions.
两个问题。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One, it's hard to attach a single number to this, but what fraction of the obesity epidemic that we observe in the United States do you think is caused by altered interactions with sunlight or artificial light and its consequences?
第一，很难用一个单一的数字来说明这一点，但是您认为我们在美国观察到的肥胖流行病中，有多少是由于与阳光或人造光的相互作用及其后果的改变引起的？
Or put differently, let me phrase the question differently.
或者换句话说，让我以不同的方式表达这个问题。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If we were designing an experiment and I wanted to wager the hypothesis that exposure to 15 minutes a day of sunlight could help reduce adipose tissue, et cetera, independent of caloric intake.
如果我们正在设计一个实验，并且我想打赌，每天暴露在阳光下 15 分钟可以帮助减少脂肪组织等，而与热量摄入无关。
I know this is kind of a heretical idea.
我知道这是一种异端思想。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Independent of additional exercise and all that.
独立于额外的锻炼等等。
And I designed the experiment with you, and we said, "Okay, people are going to go outside for 15 minutes a day.
我和你一起设计了这个实验，我们说：“好吧，人们每天要出去 15 分钟。
They're going to wear short sleeves if they can, or just simple long sleeve clothing.
如果可以的话，他们会穿短袖衣服，或者只穿简单的长袖衣服。
They're going to get this long wavelength light from the sun, 15 minutes a day."
他们将从太阳获取这种长波长的光，每天 15 分钟。”
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Based on what you told us about the light shown on the back and the-
根据您告诉我们的背面显示的灯光以及-
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
lower glucose response-
降低葡萄糖反应-
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
independent of all other variables, what percentage improvement in the overall metrics of obesity and metabolic disease do you think you would predict?
独立于所有其他变量，您认为肥胖和代谢疾病的总体指标改善的百分比是多少？
If we were just going to bet a sushi dinner, for instance.
例如，如果我们只是赌一顿寿司晚餐。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You know?
你知道吗？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
I guess another way of asking the question is this, at what level would I be really sur-- If it was 50%, I would be surprised.
我想问这个问题的另一种方式是，我真正满意的水平是多少——如果是 50%，我会感到惊讶。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Same.
相同的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
If it was 20% to 30%, I think that would probably be where it is, but that's significant.
如果是 20% 到 30%，我认为可能就是这样，但这很重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's still significant.
这仍然很重要。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so that's very helpful.
好的，这非常有帮助。
I think a lot of people hearing about the role of sunlight and long wavelength light in particular, its potential influence on improving overall immune system function, metabolic health, et cetera, might think that this sounds a little bit kind of biohacky because the moment we get into red lights, that sort of light cold plunges, it's kind of immediately associated with-
我想很多人听说阳光和长波长光的作用，特别是它对改善整体免疫系统功能、代谢健康等的潜在影响，可能会认为这听起来有点像生物黑客，因为当我们进入红灯时，那种光冷骤降，它会立即与-相关联。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
biohacking.
生物黑客。
People say it's bro science, this kind of thing.
人们说这是兄弟科学，诸如此类的事情。
I just wanted to remind people that in the early 1900s, a Nobel Prize was given for the use of phototherapy, which is what we're describing for the treatment of lupus.
我只是想提醒人们，在 1900 年代初，诺贝尔奖因光疗的使用而获得，这就是我们所描述的狼疮治疗方法。
So the idea that Specific wavelengths of light can be used in order to treat cellular health or offset cellular disease is not a new idea at all.
因此，可以使用特定波长的光来治疗细胞健康或抵消细胞疾病的想法根本不是一个新想法。
And you mentioned this earlier, but I just wanted to underscore that for people.
你之前提到过这一点，但我只是想向人们强调这一点。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The other way of looking at all this is that it's primitive.
从另一种角度来看，这一切都是原始的。
So some people will say, "Oh, this is biohacking," right?
所以有些人会说，“哦，这是生物黑客，”对吗？
Other people say, "Well, this is just primitive, like get sunlight, of course."
其他人说：“嗯，这只是原始的，当然就像获得阳光一样。”
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But you made a very key point, which is that the way we interact with light, and in particular with sunlight nowadays, is so disrupted compared to how it was just 10, 15, especially 20 years ago.
但你提出了一个非常关键的观点，那就是我们与光，特别是与阳光互动的方式，与 10、15、尤其是 20 年前相比，已经发生了很大的变化。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I would just encourage people to pay attention for one week to how much time you're actually getting outside.
我只是鼓励人们花一周的时间关注一下你实际外出的时间。
Now, a few people will already be getting a lot of time outside, but just pay attention.
现在，一些人已经有很多时间在外面了，但请注意。
How much time each day do you actually get outside?
您每天实际上有多少时间外出？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Without sunglasses on.
没有戴墨镜。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And just measure your total exposure to outdoor time-
只需测量您在户外的总暴露时间即可 -
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
let alone sunlight.
更不用说阳光了。
I think that's just an important experiment for people to do, and because when one does that, you start to realize, "My goodness, I'm hardly getting outside at all."
我认为这对人们来说是一项重要的实验，因为当一个人这样做时，你会开始意识到，“天哪，我根本不敢出去。”
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
There was a study that was done looking at just this, except they actually used watches-
有一项研究就是针对这个问题进行的，只不过他们实际上使用了手表——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
...
...
that was able to detect how much light, and it wasn't infrared light, but just total light.
它能够检测到有多少光，而且不是红外光，而是总光。
And the name of the study was basically "Dark Days and Bright Nights."
这项研究的名称基本上是“黑暗的白天和明亮的夜晚”。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
And that is associated with higher mortality.
这与较高的死亡率相关。
We know, of course, about bright nights not being good, so not having a dark room to sleep in.
当然，我们知道明亮的夜晚并不好，所以不要在黑暗的房间里睡觉。
These are things that can impair melatonin.
这些都会损害褪黑激素。
That's associated with all sorts of bad things.
这与各种不好的事情有关。
But the dark days was something that we really had not seen, and it was very interesting.
但那些黑暗的日子是我们真正没有见过的，而且非常有趣。
They actually could show by the hour that if you were having light coming in, exactly what that did to your mortality.
他们实际上可以按小时显示，如果你有光进来，这对你的死亡率到底有什么影响。
And mortality went up dramatically as you were still in daylight about midnight.
当午夜时分仍处于白天时，死亡率急剧上升。
But right around 7:00 in the morning, 8:00 in the morning, if you were out there and you're getting light now, instead of light being a liability, it was now a benefit.
但就在早上 7:00、早上 8:00 左右，如果您在外面并且现在已经有光了，那么光不再是一种负担，而是一种好处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Incredible.
难以置信。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
And it dropped dramatically.
而且它急剧下降。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I also want to point out that when it's raining out-
我还想指出的是，当下雨时——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or when it's very cold out, even when it's dark and cloudy, quote-unquote, "dark and cloudy", there's far more photons coming through the cloud cover during the day than at night.
或者当天气非常冷时，即使是在黑暗和多云的情况下，引用不引用，“黑暗和多云”，白天穿过云层的光子比晚上多得多。
People, I can't tell you, if I had a dollar for every time somebody said to me online and in person, "There's no sunlight where I live."
各位，我无法告诉你们，如果每次有人在网上或当面对我说“我住的地方没有阳光”，我就能赚到一美元。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Listen, go outside on the shortest day of the year.
听着，在一年中白天最短的时候出去走走。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Go outside, folks, and look at how bright it is at 10:00 AM or even 2:00 PM.
伙计们，到外面去看看上午 10:00 甚至下午 2:00 有多亮。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Compare that to the middle of the night.
与半夜相比。
There is sunlight.
有阳光。
Unless you live in a cave there's sunlight all year round.
除非你住在山洞里，否则一年四季都有阳光。
It's just striking.
这真是太引人注目了。
So this morning, for Southern California, it's pretty overcast today.
所以今天早上，对于南加州来说，今天天气很阴。
It's a misty rain, a little bit more, and I didn't want to go outside and get my sunlight this morning, but I know I was going to be in the studio all day, and so I went downstairs, and I put on a beanie cap and a hoodie, and I just got outside with no sunglasses and got some sunlight in my eyes.
雾雨，有点大，今天早上我不想出去晒太阳，但我知道我要在工作室待一整天，所以我下楼，戴上无檐小便帽和连帽衫，然后我没有戴墨镜就到了外面，让一些阳光照射到我的眼睛里。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's really bright outside even when it's raining.
即使下雨，外面也很亮。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's really bright outside even when it's storming.
即使下着暴风雨，外面也很亮。
And I think people somehow they think that if it's not a clear, sunny day, there's no sunlight to be had.
我认为人们不知何故认为，如果不是晴朗、阳光灿烂的日子，就没有阳光。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there are many gems that you're providing us today, but one key takeaway is I want people to understand there is sunlight all year round.
您今天为我们提供了许多宝贵的信息，但一个关键的收获是我希望人们了解全年都有阳光。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I guess unless you live truly a subterranean life, that you are underground, there is sunlight during the daytime.
我想除非你真的过着地下生活，否则你在地下，白天就有阳光。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah, and if there is, we have to work on that.
是的，如果有的话，我们必须努力解决。
To your point about it being primitive, I was looking at the history of this, and it was actually very interesting to me.
对于你所说的它是原始的观点，我正在研究它的历史，它实际上对我来说非常有趣。
We used to have tuberculosis sanitariums at very high altitude, and part of that treatment was getting out into the sun.
我们曾经在非常高的海拔地区设有结核病疗养院，治疗的一部分就是到阳光下晒太阳。
At very high altitude, you have less atmosphere, more ultraviolet light coming in, more light in general coming in.
在海拔非常高的地方，大气层较少，进入的紫外线较多，一般来说进入的光线也较多。
And when I started to look at this, I found it was very interesting what people started to say and what these people were actually saying at the time about sunlight.
当我开始研究这个问题时，我发现人们开始谈论的以及这些人当时实际上谈论的关于阳光的内容非常有趣。
In terms of these people, these physicians and these healthcare providers back in the 1800s, they didn't have all of the scientific accoutrements that we have today.
对于 1800 年代的这些人、这些医生和这些医疗保健提供者来说，他们并不拥有我们今天所拥有的所有科学装备。
They didn't have X-rays and things of that nature, but one thing that they were very, very good at, probably better than we are good at, is their power of observation.
他们没有X射线和类似的东西，但他们非常非常擅长的一件事，可能比我们更擅长，就是他们的观察力。
They were able to get a stethoscope, put it on the chest, listen to the space between the second heart sound and the opening snap, and be able to say, "This person's got severe mitral stenosis.
他们能够拿到听诊器，将其放在胸部，听第二心音和室壁破裂声之间的空间，然后能够说：“这个人有严重的二尖瓣狭窄。
This is the one you need to operate on."
这就是你需要进行手术的地方。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
And they would do that.
他们会那么做。
And sure enough, when they opened it up, sure enough, this is the one that had...
果然，当他们打开它时，果然，这就是……
So the power of observation was probably better back in the 1800s.
所以 1800 年代的观察力可能更好。
So what do you have?
那么你有什么？
You have people like Florence Nightingale, who is the founder of modern nursing, and she was there during the Crimean War, taking care of British soldiers.
像弗洛伦斯·南丁格尔这样的人，她是现代护理的创始人，她在克里米亚战争期间在那里照顾英国士兵。
And she wrote down, I'm paraphrasing basically what she said.
她写下了，我基本上是在解释她所说的话。
She said, "Look, when it comes to treating the whole patient, the one thing that more than anything else is beneficial for these soldiers to recover is fresh air." "But," she said, "A very close second is direct sunlight, getting them out into sunshine, getting them out into direct sunlight." When I was looking, the Smithsonian Institute, a couple of years ago, a few years ago, put out their top 100 most influential Americans of all time.
她说：“你看，在治疗整个病人时，对这些士兵康复最有利的一件事就是新鲜空气。” “但是，”她说，“紧随其后的是阳光直射，让它们暴露在阳光下，让它们暴露在阳光直射下。”当我在寻找的时候，史密森学会，几年前，几年前，推出了有史以来最有影响力的 100 名美国人。
Well, one of them was this lady.
嗯，其中之一就是这位女士。
She's the most translated female author in the world.
她是世界上翻译作品最多的女作家。
Her name is Ellen G.
她的名字叫艾伦·G.
White, and she had a third-grade education, but she was also very interested in health reform.
怀特女士受过三年级教育，但她对医疗改革也很感兴趣。
And she wrote at that time in the 1800s that we ought to be getting out into the sunlight, that that makes a big difference.
她在 1800 年代的那个时候写道，我们应该走到阳光下，这会带来很大的不同。
Interestingly, something else that she said that I found really amazing, and they're writing this before we understand circadian rhythm, before we understand melatonin.
有趣的是，她说的另一件事让我觉得非常神奇，他们在我们了解昼夜节律、了解褪黑激素之前就写下了这篇文章。
She wrote down, she's like, "Hey, this idea of keeping the lights on after 9:00, it's a wretched, health-destroying habit.
她写道，“嘿，9:00 后还开着灯的想法，这是一种糟糕的、有损健康的习惯。
Every light should be extinguished," she said, "after 9:00." So I know about her sayings a little bit because she was the founder of Loma Linda University, which is where I went to school.
每盏灯都应该在 9:00 之后熄灭，”她说。所以我对她的话有一点了解，因为她是洛马琳达大学的创始人，也是我就读的学校。
But we had this knowledge.
但我们有这些知识。
As you said, we had hospitals that were designed specifically to get people out of the hospital and into the sunlight.
正如你所说，我们的医院是专门为让人们走出医院并接受阳光而设计的。
You could see the architecture was designed for this.
您可以看到该架构是为此设计的。
Why don't we do this today?
我们今天为什么不这样做呢？
I think we ought to, but I kind of have the sense-- You asked the question, why don't we do this today?
我认为我们应该这样做，但我有一种感觉——你问了这个问题，我们今天为什么不这样做呢？
I have patients that I take care of now that I understand this.
现在我明白了这一点，我正在照顾一些病人。
I have patients that I have in the intensive care unit that I want to get outside in the sunlight.
我的重症监护室里有一些病人，我想到外面去晒晒太阳。
I actually try to get them out.
我实际上试图把它们弄出来。
It's difficult to do.
这很难做到。
These people are critical.
这些人很挑剔。
The people that we admit to the hospitals today are far sicker than the people that we admitted to sanitariums and hospitals in the 1800s.
今天我们医院收治的病人比 1800 年代疗养院和医院收治的病人病情严重得多。
You have to make sure that they don't desaturate.
你必须确保它们不会饱和。
You got to take the oxygen tank out there with them.
你得把氧气瓶和他们一起带到那里。
You've got to make sure that they don't have a code.
您必须确保他们没有代码。
You're outside.
你在外面。
So you're outside of the bowels of the hospital where your support system is.
所以你不在医院内部，那里是你的支持系统。
It's a little bit of a risk to get those patients out there.
把这些病人送出去是有一点风险的。
Nevertheless, I've convinced some of my hospital staff to do that, and I've had a number of success stories where we've had patients that were ready to be intubated, and we got them outside in the sunlight, and they steadily improved dramatically after days of getting worse.
尽管如此，我还是说服了我的一些医院工作人员这样做，而且我有很多成功的案例，我们让病人准备好插管，我们把他们带到外面阳光下，他们在病情恶化几天后稳步显着改善。
And they got better.
他们变得更好了。
There was a lady that actually contacted me.
确实有一位女士联系了我。
Her name is Amy Honmyhr.
她的名字叫艾米·洪米尔。
H-O-N-M-Y-H-R, if you want to look her up.
H-O-N-M-Y-H-R，如果你想找她的话。
She's on social media.
她在社交媒体上。
This is a really amazing story.
这真是一个奇妙的故事。
Her son basically at the age of 15, got leukemia, got put on chemotherapy, and this was in Minnesota.
她的儿子基本上在 15 岁时得了白血病，接受了化疗，这是在明尼苏达州。
Fortunately, it was in the summertime.
幸运的是，当时正值夏季。
And he got admitted to the hospital with what they call neutropenic fever.
他因所谓的中性粒细胞减少症入院。
Very high fevers, very low white counts as a result of the chemotherapy.
化疗导致发烧非常高，白细胞计数非常低。
And his immune system was completely shot, and unfortunately, he developed a very severe fungal infection in his lung called mucor.
他的免疫系统完全崩溃了，不幸的是，他的肺部出现了一种非常严重的真菌感染，称为毛霉。
It just basically eats up the lung, goes right to the blood vessels.
它基本上只是吞噬肺部，直接进入血管。
He got so bad that there was only one solution that they had at the time, and that was to take out the left lung.
他的情况非常糟糕，当时他们只有一种解决办法，那就是切除左肺。
So they took out the left lung, and he continued to get worse.
于是他们取出了左肺，他的病情继续恶化。
The right lung became infected.
右肺被感染。
He started to get worse, had higher fevers.
他的病情开始恶化，发烧更高。
They had a meeting with the family.
他们与家人举行了一次会议。
15 years old, completely with it, realizing that he's dying, and they have to tell him that he's dying.
15 岁，完全沉浸其中，意识到自己快要死了，他们必须告诉他他快要死了。
So they made him what they called no code or DNR, and the staff came to him.
于是他们给他做了所谓的“无代码”或“DNR”，工作人员就来找他。
And you can imagine, and I've been in this position before, where you're trying to do everything you possibly can, and you can't do anything else.
你可以想象，我以前也经历过这样的情况，你试图尽你所能，但你不能做其他任何事情。
So they came to him, the 15-year-old, and they said, "This is it.
于是他们来到他身边，这个 15 岁的年轻人说：“就是这样了。
Do you have any basically last wishes?" And Amy, his mom, told me that he'd like to play outside.
你有什么基本的遗愿吗？”他的妈妈艾米告诉我他想出去玩。
So he told them, without any knowledge about what we've just been talking about.
所以他告诉了他们，但他对我们刚才谈论的内容一无所知。
This is his dying wish.
这是他的遗愿。
"Take me outside.
“带我出去。
I just want to go outside." And you know that nursing staff will move heaven and earth to do something that the patient requests to do even though it's not going to benefit them.
我只是想出去走走。”你知道，护理人员会竭尽全力去做病人要求做的事情，即使这不会给他们带来好处。
This is a dying wish.
这是临死前的愿望。
They're going to do it.
他们会这么做的。
So they hooked up oxygen tanks.
所以他们连接了氧气罐。
They got this 15-year-old boy in a hospital bed outside on BiPAP with oxygen tanks for five hours a day.
他们让这名 15 岁的男孩躺在外面医院的病床上，每天使用 BiPAP 和氧气瓶接受五个小时的治疗。
His mom was telling me they were also using something called a Firefly device, where they were just basically shining a light onto him to see if it would work.
他妈妈告诉我，他们也在使用一种叫做萤火虫装置的东西，他们只是用光照射他，看看它是否有效。
You know how this story ends.
你知道这个故事的结局。
He did not die in two days like they told him.
他并没有像他们告诉他的那样两天后就死了。
He got better.
他好多了。
His fever went away.
他的烧退了。
His oxygen requirements came down.
他的氧气需求量下降了。
And I'm not telling you this as proof that this is what happens, but you have to realize that he was in the hospital for six weeks underneath LED lighting, and as soon as he got outside, fever went away, and make a long story short, after five days, he came back inside.
我告诉你这些并不是为了证明这就是发生的事情，但你必须意识到，他在 LED 照明下在医院呆了六个星期，他一出去，发烧就消失了，长话短说，五天后，他回到了医院。
They repeated the CT scan.
他们重复了 CT 扫描。
And she sent me the CT scans.
她给我发了 CT 扫描结果。
I've seen them.
我见过他们。
We actually did a little thing on our MedCram channel on it, and the disease was almost gone.
事实上，我们在 MedCram 频道上做了一点事情，疾病几乎消失了。
There's no explanation.
没有解释。
To this day, they don't have an explanation.
直到今天，他们还没有给出解释。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He's still alive today?
他今天还活着吗？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
He's still alive.
他还活着。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fantastic.
太棒了。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
He's getting chemotherapy.
他正在接受化疗。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Of course, he's missing a lung.
当然，他少了一个肺。
But he still has that lung.
但他还有那个肺。
He's getting the antifungal medication.
他正在服用抗真菌药物。
There's no sign of the fungus anywhere.
任何地方都没有真菌的迹象。
So this is an anecdotal story.
所以这是一个轶事故事。
It doesn't prove anything, and I don't present it as proof.
它不能证明任何事情，我也不会把它作为证据。
The things that I present as proof is randomized control trials, epidemiological trials with dose response curves.
我提供的证据是随机对照试验、带有剂量反应曲线的流行病学试验。
These are things that we can actually show the science with.
这些是我们实际上可以用来展示科学的东西。
The reason why I bring it up is because it shows what is it that we would need to do to get this type of treatment.
我之所以提出这个问题，是因为它表明我们需要做什么才能获得这种治疗。
It's not easy to do, but if there is a will, there's a way to do it.
这并不容易做到，但只要有意愿，就有办法做到。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。
Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.
去年，在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我成为了 Function 成员。
Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health.
Function 提供 100 多项高级实验室测试，为您提供整个身体健康状况的关键快照。
This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more.
此快照为您提供有关心脏健康、激素健康、免疫功能、营养水平等方面的见解。
They've also recently added tests for toxins, such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics, and tests for PFAS, or forever chemicals.
他们最近还增加了毒素测试，例如有害塑料中的 BPA 暴露，以及 PFAS 或永久化学物质的测试。
Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas.
Function 不仅提供对您的身心健康至关重要的 100 多种生物标记物的测试，而且还分析这些结果并提供相关领域专家的顶级医生的见解。
For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood.
例如，在我第一次使用 Function 进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量升高。
Function not only helped me detect that but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification.
功能不仅帮助我发现了这一点，还提供了如何最好地降低汞含量的见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼消费，我一直在吃大量金枪鱼，同时还努力多吃绿叶蔬菜并补充 NAC、N-乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒。
And I should say, by taking a second Function test, that approach worked.
我应该说，通过进行第二次功能测试，这种方法奏效了。
Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important.
全面的血液检测至关重要。
There's so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test.
有很多与您的心理和身体健康相关的事情只能通过血液检查来检测。
The problem is blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated.
问题是血液检测一直非常昂贵且复杂。
In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost.
相比之下，Function 的简单性和成本水平给我留下了深刻的印象。
It is very affordable.
这是非常实惠的。
As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.
因此，我决定加入他们的科学顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。
If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Function，可以访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。
Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman Podcast listeners.
Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等候名单，但他们正在为 Huberman 播客听众提供早期访问服务。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.
同样，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。
It's a spectacular story, by any account.
无论如何，这都是一个精彩的故事。
I wanted to just touch on the fact that there's no replacement for sunlight.
我只想谈谈阳光是无可替代的事实。
Getting patients outside is hard.
把病人送到外面是很困难的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And at the same time, most people listening to this, fortunately, are not patients.
与此同时，幸运的是，大多数听到这个消息的人都不是病人。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank goodness.
感谢上帝。
Many people, however, have relatives, or themselves are elderly.
然而，许多人有亲戚，或者他们自己已经年老了。
As people get older, they tend to slow down, get outside less.
随着年龄的增长，人们往往会放慢脚步，减少外出活动。
There are many fortunate exceptions to this, but one of the setups that I created for myself, that I think is certainly feasible for a lot of people, is the following.
有很多幸运的例外，但我为自己创建的设置之一，我认为对很多人来说肯定是可行的，如下所示。
Well, first of all, I always make it a point to get outside and get sunlight in my eyes.
嗯，首先，我总是强调要到外面去，让阳光照射到眼睛里。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Rain or shine.
下雨或晴天。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And regardless of where I'm traveling, et cetera, I do that every single day.
无论我去哪里旅行，等等，我每天都会这样做。
If I miss a day, it's only because of something like a flight where I happen to be on a plane at the time of sunrise or something like that.
如果我错过了一天，那只是因为我碰巧在日出时乘坐飞机之类的事情。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In any case.
无论如何。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I have a setup that I constructed for myself that is basically a 10,000 lux light.
但我为自己构建了一个基本上是 10,000 勒克斯灯的装置。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
These are available.
这些都是可用的。
I don't have any relationship to 10,000 lux light sources.
我与 10,000 勒克斯光源没有任何关系。
Those 10,000 lux light sources tend to be short wavelength shifted.
那些 10,000 勒克斯光源往往会发生短波长偏移。
They tend to be very blue.
它们往往是非常蓝色的。
They're white light, but I don't think they have power across the visible spectrum.
它们是白光，但我认为它们在可见光谱范围内没有能量。
I think they're very red light and infrared diminished.
我认为它们的红光和红外线减弱了。
They tend to be very blue and green light enriched.
它们往往富含蓝光和绿光。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it shows up as very bright white light.
它显示为非常明亮的白光。
So that's what I put in front of me when I first wake up if the sun isn't out yet.
这就是当我第一次醒来时（如果太阳还没有出来的话）我放在我面前的东西。
But now I've started putting a red light, near-infrared light next to it, and I'll spend the first couple minutes of my day, usually as I journal or do something like that, or sometimes just with my eyes closed, just pleasantly facing in the direction of the 10,000 lux white light and the red light, near-infrared light.
但现在我开始在它旁边放一盏红灯，近红外光，我会花一天的前几分钟，通常是在写日记或做类似的事情时，或者有时只是闭上眼睛，只是愉快地面向 10,000 勒克斯白光和红光，近红外光的方向。
And I must say, again, this is anecdotal, but the combination of the two, not only does it certainly wake you up, the white light will do that alone.
我必须再说一遍，这是轶事，但两者的结合，不仅肯定会唤醒你，而且白光单独也能做到这一点。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We know the biological basis for that.
我们知道其生物学基础。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I have noticed a tremendous improvement in energy, mood, focus, et cetera, that comes from the addition of this red light, near-infrared light.
但我注意到，由于添加了这种红光、近红外光，能量、情绪、注意力等方面有了巨大的改善。
This is not an advertisement for red light, near-infrared light.
这不是红光、近红外光的广告。
I promise.
我保证。
Although, this podcast does have a relationship to medical-grade red light devices.
尽管如此，这个播客确实与医疗级红光设备有关。
But I mention this because what I'm trying to simulate there is sunlight, but I still get outside and get sunlight.
但我提到这一点是因为我试图模拟阳光，但我仍然到外面去接受阳光。
So I just mention this setup because it seems to me that hospitals should be able to create this setup for a minimum of cost.
所以我只是提到这个设置，因为在我看来，医院应该能够以最低的成本创建这个设置。
Certainly less cost than it takes to maintain a patient for one day.
当然，这比维持一名病人一天所需的费用要低。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The cost of maintaining a patient for inpatient care is so high.
维持病人住院治疗的费用是如此之高。
Medical staff, the disposables, the actual disposing of the disposables, the janitorial staff, the cafeteria.
医务人员、一次性用品、一次性用品的实际处理、清洁人员、自助餐厅。
Hospital costs are outrageously high.
医院的费用高得离谱。
Now, of course, people will hear this and think, well, that's exactly what hospitals want, right?
当然，现在人们听到这句话后会想，这正是医院想要的，对吗？
The longer you stay, it's like a hotel, the longer you stay, the longer they can charge you or your insurance.
您停留的时间越长，就像酒店一样，您停留的时间越长，他们向您或您的保险收取费用的时间就越长。
And I'm not a conspiracy theory type.
而且我不是阴谋论类型。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it is interesting that for many people, they associate going to a hospital with staying a long time and getting sicker.
但有趣的是，对于很多人来说，去医院就意味着住院时间长、病情加重。
Sometimes they get better and go home, thank goodness.
有时他们会好起来并回家，谢天谢地。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're certainly a well-meaning doctor.
您确实是一位好心的医生。
The nursing staff are well-meaning people.
护理人员都是好心人。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Put simply, why don't hospitals include light therapy given the abundance of data on circadian rhythms and light therapy?
简而言之，既然有大量关于昼夜节律和光疗的数据，为什么医院不包括光疗呢？
And I'll just attach one more thing.
我再附上一件事。
My audience always gets upset at the duration of these questions/editorials.
在这些问题/社论的持续时间里，我的听众总是感到不安。
But this is my wheelhouse, this whole light thing, so I can't help myself.
但这是我的驾驶室，这整个轻的东西，所以我无法控制自己。
There's also something known as ICU psychosis.
还有一种称为 ICU 精神病的疾病。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is when people who are perfectly mentally healthy go into a hospital.
这是心理完全健康的人去医院的时候。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because of the relationship to light and the disruption in circadian rhythm from the overhead lights, the checking of the patient in the middle of the night, the disruption in sleep, et cetera, people literally develop psychosis-
由于与光的关系以及头顶灯对昼夜节律的干扰、半夜对病人的检查、睡眠的干扰等等，人们确实会患上精神病——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that resolves itself the moment they get home and get onto a normal schedule.
当他们回到家并开始正常的日程安排时，这个问题就会自行解决。
And it's well known that the patients that are in a hospital bed next to a window don't experience this to the same degree, if at all.
众所周知，躺在靠近窗户的医院病床上的病人即使有这种经历，也不会经历同样程度的经历。
So it's sort of like I feel like we're sitting under an avalanche, not a waterfall, but an avalanche of data telling us what we need to do.
所以我感觉我们正坐在一场雪崩之下，不是瀑布，而是大量的数据告诉我们需要做什么。
And forgive me, but what the hell is going on?
请原谅我，但这到底是怎么回事？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
So I can tell you that not only do you have less likely to get this type of ICU psychosis, but the data actually shows that people who are in a two-bed room that are next to the window actually discharge from the hospital faster.
所以我可以告诉你，不仅你患上这种类型的 ICU 精神病的可能性较小，而且数据实际上表明，住在靠近窗户的两床房间的人实际上出院速度更快。
And you say, ah, well maybe that's the reason.
你说，啊，也许这就是原因。
Well, it's interesting because the financial incentives with hospitals is not monolithic.
嗯，这很有趣，因为医院的经济激励措施并不是单一的。
Some hospitals, and their relationship to the insurance companies, are at a situation where when a patient comes into the hospital and the physician diagnoses them, the insurance will pay the hospital a certain amount of money for that diagnosis, and that's that.
有些医院，以及他们与保险公司的关系，是这样一种情况：当病人来到医院，医生给他诊断时，保险公司会为该诊断向医院支付一定的费用，仅此而已。
And also there's something called subcapitative arrangements where the hospital has a contract with an insurance company to take care of 30,000 people per member per month, and if that patient gets admitted to the hospital, that hospital has to take care of that patient, whatever the costs are.
还有一种称为次人头安排的安排，即医院与保险公司签订合同，每个成员每月照顾 30,000 人，如果该患者入院，该医院必须照顾该患者，无论费用如何。
So it basically takes the risk now and puts it from the insurance company onto the healthcare provider.
因此，它现在基本上承担了风险，并将风险从保险公司转移到了医疗保健提供者身上。
So in those situations, you'll see a hospital having an army of case managers.
因此，在这种情况下，您会看到医院拥有一支病例经理队伍。
They come down every day.
他们每天都会下来。
What are we doing for this patient?
我们正在为这位患者做什么？
What do we need to do to get this patient out of the hospital?
我们需要做什么才能让这个病人出院？
So they're motivated to get people out.
所以他们有动力让人们离开。
And so when I say that, I'm even more bewildered than when you said at the beginning, well, if we have good data that shows that light therapy and getting people out into the sun actually can improve the discharge.
所以当我这么说时，我比你一开始说的更困惑，好吧，如果我们有充分的数据表明光疗法和让人们到阳光下实际上可以改善放电。
We had that, as I said, that study from Brazil Where there was a randomized controlled trial, and they used 15 minutes of-- They actually made this jacket that they put on the patients, and they flipped it on with some patients, and they didn't flip it on with others.
正如我所说，我们进行了来自巴西的研究，那里有一项随机对照试验，他们用了 15 分钟的时间——他们实际上制作了这件夹克，给病人穿上，他们给一些病人穿上了它，而他们没有给其他病人穿上它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The jacket was a light jacket?
这件夹克是一件轻薄的夹克？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
It was an LED jacket that was giving light out at 940 nanometers, infrared light.
这是一件 LED 夹克，可以发出 940 纳米的红外光。
So you can't even tell if it's on, and as I said, the milliwatts per square centimeter was like 2.9, so you wouldn't even feel it.
所以你甚至无法判断它是否开启，正如我所说，每平方厘米的毫瓦约为 2.9，所以你甚至感觉不到它。
But yet these patients, when they were done, seven days, 15 minutes a day, they had better oxygen saturation.
但这些患者在完成 7 天、每天 15 分钟后，血氧饱和度有所改善。
They could take deeper breaths, longer breaths.
他们可以更深、更长的呼吸。
Their heart rates, their respiratory rates improved.
他们的心率、呼吸频率都有所改善。
Even their lymphocytes improved, the ones that are very important for fighting off COVID-19.
甚至他们的淋巴细胞也得到了改善，而这些细胞对于抵抗 COVID-19 非常重要。
And so at the very end of all of this, the average length of stay in the control group was 12 days, about 12 days.
所以最后，对照组的平均停留时间是 12 天，大约 12 天。
In the intervention group, it was eight days.
在干预组中，这一时间为八天。
How much does it cost to spend four days in a hospital?
在医院住四天要花多少钱？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It can be outrageously expensive.
它可能非常昂贵。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
It's outrageous.
太离谱了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
And it's potentially possible, and this is why I think really people need to understand this, not just people who are wanting for their own care, but people who are in charge of hospitals, people who are in charge of healthcare in this country, is understanding that I believe-- Why I'm happy to talk about this is I think that the lowest hanging fruit potentially, if you look at that graph of deaths throughout the year, is encouraging sunlight in people, especially in those that are hospitalized and sick.
这是有可能的，这就是为什么我认为人们真的需要理解这一点，不仅是那些想要自己照顾的人，而且是负责医院的人，负责这个国家医疗保健的人，都明白我相信——为什么我很高兴谈论这个，因为我认为，如果你看看全年的死亡图表，最容易实现的目标是鼓励人们，特别是那些住院和生病的人，享受阳光。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
I don't know why, but I think if somebody were to pick up the baton and decide to do a very simple study, you would have to hire some nurses that would actually-- I've actually thought about doing this study myself, is having a unit outside in the sun where people go for literally 20 to 30 minutes, and they come back.
我不知道为什么，但我认为，如果有人拿起接力棒并决定进行一项非常简单的研究，你就必须雇用一些护士，实际上我自己也考虑过进行这项研究，在外面的阳光下有一个单位，人们在那里呆上 20 到 30 分钟，然后他们就会回来。
You have a whole bunch of nurses there with monitoring so that you can make sure the patients are stable, and then you send them right back up.
你那里有一大群护士负责监控，这样你就可以确保病人情况稳定，然后你就把他们送回去。
We send people down to the CAT scanner all the time.
我们总是派人到 CAT 扫描仪前。
It takes 15 to 20 minutes.
需要 15 到 20 分钟。
This is not something that we don't do.
这不是我们不做的事情。
The difference is you're just sending them outside.
不同的是你只是把他们送到外面。
Hopefully, it's warm, it's not too cold.
希望天气温暖，不要太冷。
There's nothing that bad that happens.
没有什么那么糟糕的事情发生。
And you send them right back up.
然后你立即将它们发送回来。
That would be a very easy study to do.
这将是一项非常容易完成的研究。
You could randomize them and then see what happens to their length of stay.
您可以将他们随机化，然后看看他们的停留时间会发生什么变化。
In my experience, and it's only anecdotal, I have not done this study, it's a world of difference.
根据我的经验，这只是轶事，我没有做过这项研究，这是一个天壤之别。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's for sick people.
那是给病人用的。
If we're thinking about health maintenance and health improvement in healthy people who are not in the hospital-
如果我们考虑不在医院的健康人的健康维护和健康改善-
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which fortunately is most people, it's very clear, 15 minutes a day of sunlight exposure.
这对于大多数人来说是幸运的，它是非常清晰的，每天暴露15分钟的阳光。
And if you absolutely can't get sunlight exposure, think about some artificial light arrangement that might be beneficial.
如果您绝对无法接受阳光照射，请考虑一些可能有益的人造光布置。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I want to make sure that we talk about not just sunlight exposure and long wavelength light exposure from artificial sources, but the flip side of all this, which is the importance of darkness-
我想确保我们谈论的不仅仅是阳光照射和人造光源的长波长光照射，还有这一切的另一面，即黑暗的重要性——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
at night.
晚上。
I'm aware of a study published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences where they basically had kids sleep in either a completely black room or a room that had 100 lux, this is very dim light, folks-
我知道《美国国家科学院院刊》上发表的一项研究，他们基本上让孩子们睡在一个全黑的房间或一个 100 勒克斯的房间里，这是非常昏暗的光线，伙计们——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
100 lux light source down in the corner, kind of like a nightlight.
100 lux 光源位于角落，有点像夜灯。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then looked at morning blood glucose levels, and there was a significant difference in the direction of you don't want any light in the room that you're sleeping.
然后观察早晨的血糖水平，发现您不希望睡觉的房间里有任何光线的方向存在显着差异。
Now, that's hard to do, especially if you're traveling, hotels.
现在，这很难做到，尤其是当你旅行、住酒店的时候。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But eye masks, in particular-
但眼罩，尤其是——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
silk or even faux silk eye masks, which are very comfortable, can essentially provide that.
非常舒适的丝绸甚至人造丝眼罩基本上可以提供这一点。
It's very clear that it's the light exposure to the eyes.
很明显，是眼睛受到的光线照射。
What, if anything, do you recommend for people who are basically living in an environment that's too bright at night?
对于基本上生活在夜间太亮环境中的人们，您有什么建议（如果有的话）？
Do you yourself use blackout curtains?
您自己使用遮光窗帘吗？
I find that this is the one that's a little bit harder for people.
我发现这对人们来说有点困难。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
It is.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You have kids.
你有孩子。
How should we work with these data?
我们应该如何处理这些数据？
And what are your thoughts about the importance of getting things really dark at night?
您对夜间变黑的重要性有何看法？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
That is the same question and the same problem that I have with people that do night shift because they go home, and they're supposed to sleep, and it's daylight outside.
这与我对那些上夜班的人有同样的问题和问题，因为他们回家了，他们应该睡觉，而外面是白天。
So what do you do?
那么你做什么呢？
That's where you get the aluminum foil around the windows.
这就是窗户周围贴铝箔的地方。
You basically have to block out all of that light.
基本上你必须挡住所有的光线。
And then the eye patch, of course, is a nice thing to do as well.
当然，眼罩也是一件不错的事情。
Realizing, though, that even when you close your eyes, if there's a light source in the room, people think, "Well, I'll just close my eyes." Those photons can go through the eyes, just like we talked about with infrared light can go through the skin.
但要意识到，即使你闭上眼睛，如果房间里有光源，人们也会想：“好吧，我就闭上眼睛。”这些光子可以穿过眼睛，就像我们谈到的红外线可以穿过皮肤一样。
And I don't know if this is true or not, but I've heard even one or two photons of light hitting the back of the retina can cause enough signal to go to the suprachiasmatic nucleus that shut down melatonin production, or at least impair it-
我不知道这是否属实，但我听说即使是一两个光子撞击视网膜后部也会引起足够的信号到达视交叉上核，从而关闭褪黑激素的产生，或者至少损害它 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
...
...
in some way.
以某种方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
In experimental conditions, that's definitely true.
在实验条件下，这绝对是正确的。
The sensitivity of the human visual system is extraordinary.
人类视觉系统的敏感性是非凡的。
Your rods, the higher sensitivity photoreceptors in the back of your eye, can detect a single photon.
您的视杆细胞是眼睛后部灵敏度较高的感光器，可以检测到单个光子。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One photon.
一个光子。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Most people aren't familiar with thinking in photon quantities, so that might not mean anything to them.
大多数人不熟悉光子数量的思考，因此这对他们来说可能没有任何意义。
Put differently, and these are wild data from Chuck Czeisler's lab at Harvard Medical School, light suppresses melatonin.
换句话说，光会抑制褪黑激素，这些都是来自哈佛医学院查克·蔡斯勒实验室的野生数据。
The question is, how much light do you need?
问题是，你需要多少光？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because of the increase in sensitivity of the eye at night-
因为夜间眼睛的敏感度增加——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
this rod system and these specialized cells that send signals to the circadian clock, 15 seconds, 15 seconds of artificial light exposure will significantly quash your melatonin.
这个杆系统和这些向生物钟发送信号的特殊细胞，15秒，15秒的人造光暴露会显着抑制你的褪黑激素。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
That's a whiz at night.
这真是夜里的神机妙算啊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
15.
15.
Yeah, right.
是的，对。
So if you go to the bathroom-- So then people say, "Well, what am I supposed to do?
所以如果你去洗手间——那么人们会说：“好吧，我该怎么办？
How do I navigate at night, and how do I make sure I'm peeing in the toilet?" Especially for men, right?
晚上我该如何导航，以及如何确保我在厕所里撒尿？”尤其是对于男人来说，对吧？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And how do I not trip and fall?
我怎样才能不绊倒？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This kind of thing en route to the bathroom or getting a glass of water.
这种事情发生在去浴室或喝水的路上。
It's funny.
很有趣。
The answer turns out to be so logical, but you almost have to hear it before you kind of go, "Oh, that makes sense." So perfectly fine to use your phone as a flashlight.
答案是如此合乎逻辑，但你几乎必须先听过它，然后才能说：“哦，这是有道理的。”非常适合将手机用作手电筒。
And then people say, "Well, a flashlight's really bright." But you're not shining the light into your eyes.
然后人们会说：“嗯，手电筒真的很亮。”但你并没有将光照射到你的眼睛里。
So looking at your screen dimmed way down in the middle of the night-
所以看着你的屏幕在半夜变暗——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is going to be very detrimental to the melatonin system, right at the time where you want melatonin high, and other things too.
这对褪黑激素系统非常有害，尤其是在您需要褪黑激素和其他物质的高水平的时候。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But looking at a flashlight shone into the hallway so that you can navigate.
但是看着手电筒照进走廊，这样你就可以导航了。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very different scenario than it shining directly into your eyes.
与直接照进你眼睛的场景截然不同。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Makes sense, yeah.
有道理，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then there are a number of different red light sources that are pretty good, like little red light lamps that are effective.
还有许多不同的红色光源都非常好，例如有效的小红光灯。
Or you can just turn your phone to red light mode.
或者您可以将手机调至红灯模式。
There's a way to do that.
有一种方法可以做到这一点。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Well, I remember a podcast that you had probably a couple of years ago where you had someone, I forgot his name, but he said his house was very dark at night, and people would be afraid to go over-
嗯，我记得几年前你可能有一个播客，里面有一个人，我忘记了他的名字，但他说他的房子晚上很黑，人们不敢过去-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, yeah
哦，是的
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
...
...
because they'd be tripping all
因为他们会绊倒所有人
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's my good friend, Dr. Samer Hurtart.
那是我的好朋友，Samer Hurtart 博士。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now, keep in mind that Samer is the head of the chronobiology unit at the National Institutes of Mental Health, so he literally lives and breathes this stuff.
现在，请记住，萨默尔是美国国立心理健康研究所时间生物学部门的负责人，所以他确实生活和呼吸着这些东西。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The other thing about Samer, which is interesting, is when I first met Samer, he was very, very overweight.
关于萨默尔的另一件事很有趣，当我第一次见到萨默尔时，他非常非常超重。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What Samer may have relayed on that podcast, perhaps not, is that by changing his relationship to light, sunlight, and getting sunlight during the day and darkness at night, and by the way, he lived in Baltimore at that time, so it's not trivial to do that.
萨默在该播客上可能传达的内容（也许不是）是，通过改变他与光、阳光的关系，白天享受阳光，晚上享受黑暗，顺便说一句，他当时住在巴尔的摩，所以这样做并不是小事。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And changing his sleep schedule to one of getting into bed around 9:00 or 10:00 p.m.
并将他的睡眠时间表更改为晚上 9:00 或 10:00 左右上床睡觉。
and waking up earlier as opposed to staying up late and sleeping the equivalent amount into later in the morning.
早起，而不是熬夜并在早上晚些时候睡同样的时间。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He lost over 80 pounds.
他减掉了 80 多磅。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Effortlessly.
毫不费力。
His appetite just adjusted because he finally got in tune with his natural circadian cycles.
他的食欲刚刚调整，因为他终于适应了他的自然昼夜节律。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
And Glenn Jeffries' work has made me think in my mind, because of the presence of light in that study and the fact that the glucose was less, it makes me wonder whether or not we really shouldn't be eating only when the sun is up.
格伦·杰弗里斯的工作让我思考，因为该研究中存在光，而且葡萄糖含量较少，这让我想知道我们是否真的不应该只在太阳升起时才进食。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I agree that we probably should only be eating when the sun is up.
我同意我们可能只应该在太阳升起时吃饭。
I like dinner somewhere around 6:00, 6:30.
我喜欢在 6:00、6:30 左右的某个地方吃晚饭。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's tough for me.
这对我来说很难。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
I mean-
我的意思是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I totally agree.
但我完全同意。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If people were willing to meet me for dinner earlier, I'm good.
如果人们愿意早点和我一起吃晚饭，我很好。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now, it is true that sleep is vastly improved when you haven't eaten in the previous couple of hours.
现在，确实，如果您在过去几个小时内没有进食，睡眠会大大改善。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's also true that trying to fall asleep and stay asleep when you have gnawing hunger in your belly-
当你肚子里的饥饿在折磨你时，试图入睡并保持睡眠状态也是事实——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
It's not easy
这并不容易
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is not easy.
并不容易。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
No. Yeah.
不，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And I would say the other thing is too is making sure that these rules that we're coming up with here based on physiology aren't laws.
我想说的另一件事也是确保我们在这里根据生理学提出的这些规则不是法律。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
So that we get so anxious about following them that they actually become a detriment.
因此，我们对追随他们感到如此焦虑，以至于他们实际上成为了一种损害。
There's a point where we just have to do well enough and then move on to the next day.
到了某个阶段，我们就必须做得足够好，然后继续第二天的工作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, we're human.
是的，我们是人类。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
And try to do it the next day.
并尝试第二天去做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We're human.
我们是人类。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I want to talk about the other aspects of NEW START: nutrition, exercise, trust, rest, et cetera.
我想谈谈新起点的其他方面：营养、锻炼、信任、休息等等。
But before we do that, I want to touch on something that I've been curious about for a long time.
但在此之前，我想谈谈我长期以来一直好奇的事情。
It's somewhat controversial.
这有点争议。
I've stated my stance on this previously, took some heat for it, but maybe I'll revise my stance.
我之前已经表达了我的立场，为此受到了一些批评，但也许我会修改我的立场。
You see a lot of patients in the ICU with flu.
你在重症监护病房里看到很多患有流感的病人。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Obviously, the flu can be deadly in some circumstances.
显然，流感在某些情况下可能致命。
But for most people that are healthy, generally healthy, first of all, how concerning is flu?
但对于大多数健康的人，总体上健康的人来说，首先，流感有多令人担忧？
Should I really be concerned about flu this winter season, even though I feel robust?
尽管我感觉很健康，但今年冬天我真的应该担心流感吗？
And then the second question is, do you personally get the "flu shot"?
第二个问题是，您个人是否接种了“流感疫苗”？
I said on a previous podcast that I don't get it.
我在之前的播客中说过我不明白。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I took a lot of heat for that.
为此我承受了很大的压力。
I understand that the flu shot does protect against certain forms of flu, not all of them.
我知道流感疫苗确实可以预防某些形式的流感，但不能预防所有流感。
That statement was kind of pushed out there by folks saying that I was going against CDC guidelines.
那些人说我违反了疾病预防控制中心的指导方针，所以发表了这一声明。
I'm not going against CDC guidelines.
我不会违反疾病预防控制中心的指导方针。
People should do as they choose.
人们应该按照自己的选择去做。
They should just know what they're doing.
他们应该只知道自己在做什么。
I've never gotten a flu shot.
我从未注射过流感疫苗。
I don't know if I've ever gotten the flu.
我不知道我是否曾经得过流感。
But that's my personal choice.
但这是我个人的选择。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's not based on any specific fear of the flu shot.
这并不是基于对流感疫苗的任何特定恐惧。
It's because it's never been an issue for me, and I'm okay with getting a cold or a flu every couple of years, feeling miserable for a week or two-
这是因为这对我来说从来都不是问题，而且我可以接受每隔几年患一次感冒或流感，在一两周内感到痛苦-
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and bouncing back.
并反弹。
I feel like that's good to develop my own antibodies.
我觉得开发自己的抗体很好。
But maybe I'm thinking about this completely irrationally.
但也许我的思考完全是非理性的。
So do you get the flu shot?
那么你注射流感疫苗了吗？
Do you recommend the flu shot for healthy people?
您推荐健康人注射流感疫苗吗？
Do you recommend the flu shot for people that are metabolically challenged?
您是否建议新陈代谢有问题的人注射流感疫苗？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It's a good question.
这是一个好问题。
And the approach that I take is the approach that I take with any intervention in medicine.
我采取的方法就是我对医学干预采取的方法。
Every intervention in medicine has a benefit, and every intervention has a risk, no matter what it is.
医学上的每项干预措施都有好处，每项干预措施都有风险，无论它是什么。
So for me, because I work in an intensive care unit around sick patients all the time, I'm exposed to a lot of flu.
所以对我来说，因为我一直在重症监护室工作，周围都是病人，所以我接触过很多流感。
You literally walk in, and the next day they say, "Oh, by the way, that guy, yeah, he had the flu." So you find out after the fact.
你真的走进去，第二天他们就会说，“哦，顺便说一句，那个人，是的，他得了流感。”所以你事后才知道。
So for me, since I've been a physician, I've always gotten the flu shot every single year.
所以对我来说，自从我成为一名医生以来，我每年都会注射流感疫苗。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you get it multiple times per season?
每个赛季你会多次得到它吗？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
No, just once.
不，就一次。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so at the beginning of the flu season when they say-
好吧，在流感季节开始时，他们说——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
"Flu shot available now."
“现在可以注射流感疫苗了。”
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's a mix of antibodies against known strains of the flu.
所以它是针对已知流感病毒株的抗体的混合物。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Interesting.
有趣的。
The way that they try to figure out or guess the way it is, because that's what it is, it's a guess, is they look six months earlier to see what happened in the Southern Hemisphere.
他们试图弄清楚或猜测事情的真相，因为事情就是这样，这是一种猜测，他们会提前六个月看看南半球发生了什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
And they see what was circulating there, and then they believe that's what's going to be circulating in the Northern Hemisphere.
他们看到那里正在传播什么，然后他们相信这就是北半球将要传播的东西。
And they do the same in the South.
他们在南方也做同样的事情。
They look and see what's circulating up here, and they try to figure out what it's going to be there.
他们观察这里流通的是什么，并试图弄清楚那里会发生什么。
So there's usually about three or four different ones that they try to put in there.
因此，他们通常会尝试将大约三到四种不同的东西放入其中。
Ever since 2009, they've tried to put one in there about 2009 because that was a really bad year.
自 2009 年以来，他们一直试图在 2009 年左右放一个，因为那是非常糟糕的一年。
We mentioned that in terms of that study on sunlight.
我们在关于阳光的研究中提到过这一点。
But in terms of the side effects as a result of that, it's been pretty bad.
但就由此产生的副作用而言，情况非常糟糕。
To give you an example, I had a patient recently in the intensive care unit.
举个例子，我最近在重症监护室接诊了一位病人。
This patient came in, very poorly controlled diabetes, hemoglobin A1c of like 16, 17.
这位患者进来时，糖尿病控制得很差，糖化血红蛋白约为 16、17。
It was very bad.
情况非常糟糕。
And she got the flu, and her immune system was not well.
她得了流感，免疫系统也不好。
She actually also got a very bad fungal infection that was Near fatal.
事实上，她还感染了非常严重的真菌感染，几乎致命。
And so that's the typical patient that we're going to see who's going to have that type of a bad reaction to the flu.
这就是我们要观察的典型患者，他们会对流感产生这种不良反应。
People who are immunocompromised, people who are not metabolically healthy, these are the ones that are wide open.
免疫功能低下的人、代谢不健康的人，这些都是敞开的。
And so a flu virus is going to do a lot of damage there.
因此，流感病毒会在那里造成很大的损害。
So what does the flu vaccine do?
那么流感疫苗有什么作用呢？
It gives the immune system an advanced notice of what this antigen is, and that has two effects.
它让免疫系统提前知道这种抗原是什么，这有两个作用。
What a lot of people believe is that it's going to protect you from ever getting infected.
很多人相信它会保护您免受感染。
That's not the case.
事实并非如此。
You can still get infected, but what happens is that the symptomatology or the side effects of that infection will be greatly diminished.
您仍然可能被感染，但所发生的情况是该感染的症状或副作用将大大减少。
So instead of you being hospitalized perhaps, maybe you're only coming down with the flu and you stay at home.
因此，您可能不会住院，而可能只是患了流感，就待在家里。
A lot of people would say, "I got the flu shot, and it didn't help.
很多人会说：“我注射了流感疫苗，但没有帮助。
I got the flu anyway." What we don't know is how severe that infection would have been in the first place.
无论如何，我还是得了流感。”我们不知道这种感染最初会有多严重。
So that's why for people who are immunocompromised, I generally recommend it to get the flu shot.
这就是为什么对于免疫功能低下的人，我通常建议注射流感疫苗。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or people that are exposed to a lot of flu.
或者经常接触流感的人。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like you.
就像你一样。
You work in the ICU.
你在重症监护室工作。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And if I may, do your kids get the flu shot?
如果可以的话，你的孩子接种流感疫苗了吗？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah, we give them the flu shot as well.
是的，我们也给他们注射流感疫苗。
It's more because they're the kids of doctors who might bring home the flu-
更重要的是因为他们是医生的孩子，可能会把流感带回家——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it
明白了
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
...
...
and more than anything else.
最重要的是。
But there was a point where we were not doing it.
但有一个点我们没有这样做。
When they're in their teenage years, that's when we start actually giving them the flu shot.
当他们十几岁的时候，我们就开始给他们注射流感疫苗。
That was just a personal opinion, even though I know it's approved up down to six months of age, I believe.
这只是个人意见，尽管我知道它在六个月内已获得批准，我相信。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you started your kids once they were in their teen years.
所以你在孩子十几岁的时候就开始了。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
I remember one year, our son, Ryan, he got some virus.
我记得有一年，我们的儿子瑞安（Ryan）感染了病毒。
I don't know what it was, but he had very bad diarrhea, and we had to take him to the emergency room to actually get an IV and get fluids into him.
我不知道那是什么，但他腹泻得很严重，我们不得不带他去急诊室，进行静脉注射并给他输液。
He was very dehydrated.
他非常脱水。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
I don't know what that was.
我不知道那是什么。
I don't know if it was rotavirus, but something was going around that year.
我不知道是否是轮状病毒，但那一年发生了一些事情。
And he's perfectly healthy.
而且他非常健康。
So this is something that can happen, and you just have to look at the risks and benefits.
所以这是可能发生的事情，你只需要考虑风险和收益。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
While I am telling you that I've never gotten a flu shot-
虽然我告诉你我从未接种过流感疫苗-
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
am I being irresponsible as a citizen?
我作为一个公民是不是不负责任？
I go places.
我去一些地方。
I go to restaurants.
我去餐馆。
I go to the gym.
我去健身房。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've remained healthy, for the most part.
在大多数情况下，我一直保持健康。
I mean, an occasional sniffle here and there.
我的意思是，时不时地抽鼻子。
Every couple of years, I'll get-
每隔几年，我就会得到——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's been a long time, actually, now that I think about it.
其实已经过去很久了，现在想起来。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
I think irresponsible is probably too strong of a word.
我认为“不负责任”这个词可能太重了。
The way I look at things is through what I call the Swiss cheese model.
我看待事物的方式是通过我所说的瑞士奶酪模型。
I don't know if you've ever heard of the Swiss cheese model.
不知道大家有没有听说过瑞士奶酪模式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love Swiss cheese.
我喜欢瑞士奶酪。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Okay.
好的。
So the Swiss cheese model says this.
瑞士奶酪模型是这么说的。
If I cut up a bunch of pieces of Swiss cheese, you'll know that every piece has a hole in it, right?
如果我切一堆瑞士奶酪，你就会知道每块奶酪上都有一个洞，对吗？
Or maybe a couple holes.
或者也许有几个洞。
And if you line up those pieces of Swiss cheese, those holes might be in different places.
如果你把这些瑞士奶酪块排列起来，这些洞可能会在不同的地方。
Let's say you're on one end of those multiple slices of Swiss cheese, and little particles are coming through.
假设您位于多片瑞士奶酪的一端，并且有小颗粒穿过。
If you have enough pieces of those Swiss cheese, no particles are going to get through.
如果你有足够多的瑞士奶酪，就不会出现任何颗粒。
And that's really what we look at in medicine.
这确实是我们在医学中所看到的。
We don't just depend on one slice of Swiss cheese.
我们不仅仅依赖于一片瑞士奶酪。
Like in the operating room, for instance, we don't want to have infections.
例如，就像在手术室里一样，我们不想感染。
So what do we do?
那么我们该怎么办呢？
We sterilize the instruments.
我们对仪器进行消毒。
But we don't just leave it there.
但我们不会把它留在那里。
We sterilize the skin that we're going to incise.
我们对要切开的皮肤进行消毒。
We make sure that the room is the right temperature, the right humidity because that has an effect.
我们确保房间有合适的温度和湿度，因为这会产生影响。
We make sure it's under positive pressure.
我们确保它处于正压力下。
The surgeon is wearing a mask.
外科医生戴着口罩。
He's also wearing sterile gloves.
他还戴着无菌手套。
So we go through and we try to do everything that we can possibly do so that if there is a breakdown in one place, we still have a bunch of other Swiss cheese slices in place.
因此，我们会仔细检查并尝试尽我们所能，以便如果某个地方出现故障，我们仍然可以保留一堆其他瑞士奶酪片。
It's the same thing with the flu.
流感也是如此。
And new start, so nutrition, exercise, water, all of those things.
新的开始，营养、锻炼、水，所有这些东西。
And then at the end, when you've done that for yourself, if you want to have extra protection, you want to add on another piece of Swiss cheese, well, you can talk to your doctor, see what the risks and the benefits are, and then make that decision if that's something that's right for you.
最后，当你为自己做到这一点时，如果你想获得额外的保护，你想添加另一块瑞士奶酪，那么，你可以和你的医生谈谈，看看风险和好处是什么，然后做出决定，如果这适合你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are there any known risks of the so-called flu shot?
所谓的流感疫苗有任何已知的风险吗？
And if so, what's the percentage risk?
如果是这样，风险百分比是多少？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, definitely there are risks in terms of allergies.
嗯，过敏方面肯定存在风险。
So they should be asking you when you get it, "Have you ever been allergic to the flu shot before?" You can have anaphylactic shock.
因此，当您接种疫苗时，他们应该问您：“您以前对流感疫苗过敏吗？”您可能会出现过敏性休克。
That's one possibility.
这是一种可能性。
Of course, you can have that with anything.
当然，你可以用任何东西来做到这一点。
But specifically to the flu, there was actually, interestingly, one year, and I can't remember which year it was, but I think it was in Europe, and we actually never got it in the United States, but there was a rash of narcolepsy that was occurring.
但有趣的是，具体到流感，实际上有一年，我不记得是哪一年了，但我认为是在欧洲，实际上我们在美国从未感染过它，但正在发生一波发作性睡病。
So something about the flu vaccine was causing a reaction that was causing an autoimmune response, and the antibodies, they believe, were acting against where hypocretin is-
因此，流感疫苗中的某些物质引起了一种反应，从而引起了自身免疫反应，而他们认为，这些抗体正在针对下丘脑分泌素发挥作用——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
...
...
made in the brain, hypothalamus.
在大脑、下丘脑中产生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
And so they noticed that there was an association.
所以他们注意到存在关联。
I don't know if they actually determined that it was causal, but they stopped that brand.
我不知道他们是否真的确定这是因果关系，但他们停止了这个品牌。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Whew.
呼。
I would not want narcolepsy.
我不想患上嗜睡症。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I used to work in a laboratory-
我曾经在实验室工作过——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for a summer studying narcolepsy.
花了一个夏天研究发作性睡病。
It was the laboratory of Emmanuel Mignot's lab at Stanford School of Medicine.
这是斯坦福大学医学院伊曼纽尔·米尼奥特实验室的实验室。
He and his colleague Seiji Nishino identified the hypocretin orexin-
他和他的同事 Seiji Nishino 发现了下丘脑分泌素 orexin-
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
mutation as the source of narcolepsy.
突变是发作性睡病的根源。
And people with narcolepsy, people think it's just excessive daytime sleepiness, but in the extreme examples, when people with narcolepsy have any kind of emotional activation, they fall asleep.
对于患有嗜睡症的人，人们认为这只是白天过度嗜睡，但在极端的例子中，当患有嗜睡症的人有任何形式的情绪激活时，他们就会睡着。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they have cataplexy too, so they can't drive.
而且他们也患有猝倒症，所以他们不能开车。
They become essentially paralyzed, like a sleep atonia.
他们基本上变得瘫痪，就像睡眠缺乏症一样。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Pretty devastating disease.
相当毁灭性的疾病。
So it sounds like that particular strain of the flu shot-
所以这听起来像是流感疫苗的特殊菌株——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in Europe-
在欧洲-
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
That was the one
就是那个
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
was neurotoxic in some way.
在某种程度上具有神经毒性。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
There was one particular strain.
有一种特殊的菌株。
We'd never seen it before, never seen it since.
我们以前从未见过它，此后也从未见过它。
And so yeah.
所以是的。
There are these one-offs.
有这些一次性的事情。
But everything has risks.
但凡事都有风险。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
And so the example that I give is, look, I'm in the ICU all day, and I'm seeing people occasionally with head bleeds.
所以我举的例子是，看，我整天都在重症监护室里，我偶尔会看到有人头部流血。
And they're on a blood thinner.
他们正在服用血液稀释剂。
But I don't go back to my clinic in the pulmonary office and then take everybody off of blood thinners because we know that blood thinners epidemiologically, in the long run, actually save lives because they prevent strokes, heart attacks, things of that nature.
但我不会回到肺科诊所，然后让所有人停止使用血液稀释剂，因为我们知道，从流行病学角度来看，从长远来看，血液稀释剂实际上可以挽救生命，因为它们可以预防中风、心脏病等类似疾病。
So what we try to do is figure out What's the right individual for this medication?
因此，我们要做的就是弄清楚什么人适合使用这种药物？
Or what's the right medicine for this type of situation?
或者说对于这种情况有什么好的药物可以治疗呢？
And that requires training and that requires, sometimes you have calculators that can figure out these risks.
这需要培训，有时需要有可以计算出这些风险的计算器。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In the winter months when flu levels are high, are you wearing a mask from the moment you walk into the clinic in the morning until when you leave?
在流感高发的冬季，您从早上走进诊所到离开诊所都戴着口罩吗？
When you walk up to a new patient, if you know they have a flu or if you know they don't have the flu, are you masked up?
当你走向一位新病人时，如果你知道他们患有流感或者你知道他们没有患流感，你会戴上口罩吗？
This became a big issue around the-
这成为了一个大问题——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the COVID discussion, but to what extent does wearing a conventional mask or even an N95 actually protect you from flu?
关于 COVID 的讨论，但是佩戴传统口罩甚至 N95 能在多大程度上真正保护您免受流感侵害呢？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So the regular surgical masks are very good at preventing things from coming out of your mouth and going to other people or coming onto your mouth if you happen to have one on.
因此，普通外科口罩可以很好地防止东西从你的嘴里流到其他人身上，或者如果你碰巧戴着的话，也能防止东西进入你的嘴里。
So in our clinic where we work, we actually look at the flu incidents, and then we see if it's rising, everybody that comes into that place, physicians, patients, everybody puts a mask on to reduce that.
因此，在我们工作的诊所，我们实际上会关注流感事件，然后我们会看看它是否在上升，每个进入该地方的人，医生，患者，每个人都戴上口罩以减少这种情况。
N95s are a little different in that they don't prevent viruses from coming out of somebody.
N95 略有不同，因为它们不能防止病毒从某人体内传播出来。
You may notice when you put an N95 mask on, they may even have a valve that pops open and gas can come out, respiratory air can come out, or comes out the sides.
您可能会注意到，当您戴上 N95 口罩时，它们甚至可能有一个突然打开的阀门，气体可以流出，呼吸空气可以流出，或者从侧面流出。
It's when you take a breath in and it seals, now it's filtering that air.
当你吸气时它就会密封，现在它正在过滤空气。
So N95s are very good for people who don't want to get infection and don't have respiratory issues because you're now having to breathe air in through a filter.
因此，N95 对于那些不想受到感染且没有呼吸道问题的人来说非常有用，因为您现在必须通过过滤器呼吸空气。
That takes a little bit more work.
这需要更多的工作。
If someone has COPD or, which is a obstructive lung disease or other lung diseases, that might not be the best thing to have in those situations.
如果有人患有慢性阻塞性肺病或阻塞性肺病或其他肺部疾病，那么在这种情况下这可能不是最好的选择。
So, yeah, I do wear a mask.
所以，是的，我确实戴着口罩。
I was very careful.
我非常小心。
I know I was coming on your show this wintertime, and it's like, there's no way I want to get the flu-
我知道今年冬天我会来参加你的节目，我不想得流感——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, yeah
哦，是的
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
...
...
and miss getting on to see you.
并想念去看你。
So yeah, I wore a mask.
所以是的，我戴了面具。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, thank you for not-
好吧，谢谢你没有——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for avoiding bringing the flu here.
以避免将流感带到这里。
It's wild because ever since I started this podcast, we put out now two episodes a week, the full-length episodes on Mondays and the shorter essential episodes on Thursdays.
这很疯狂，因为自从我开始这个播客以来，我们现在每周发布两集，周一发布完整的剧集，周四发布较短的基本剧集。
So, I can't afford to get sick.
所以，我不能生病。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, and I haven't been sick in years.
是的，我已经很多年没有生过病了。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I take care to not get sick, but I'm going to think real carefully about this flu shot thing.
我会小心不要生病，但我会认真考虑流感疫苗的事情。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What about hand washing?
洗手怎么样？
So a friend-- Let me give a little bit of backstory.
所以，朋友——让我讲一些背景故事。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The guy I worked for as a postdoc was an MD PhD, and he used to joke about the fact that hand washing did nothing because in his prior life, he was a surgeon.
我作为博士后工作的那个人是一名医学博士，他经常开玩笑说洗手没有任何作用，因为在他的前世，他是一名外科医生。
I think he did a surgery rotation.
我认为他做了轮换手术。
He eventually became a neurologist-
他最终成为一名神经科医生——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Okay
好的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
then a researcher.
然后是研究员。
And I used to say, "What do you mean the hand washing does nothing?" And he's like, "Well, have you ever seen what a physician does before surgery?
我常常说：“你说洗手没有任何作用是什么意思？”他说：“那么，你见过医生在手术前会做什么吗？
They wash up basically their shoulders.
他们基本上清洗肩膀。
They've got Betadine.
他们有聚维酮碘。
They glove in properly and that's how you prevent infection.
他们正确戴上手套，这就是预防感染的方法。
Washing your hands does nothing.
洗手没有任何作用。
It's a formality." And I thought, "There's no way that could be true." Then I started digging around in the literature about this-
这是一种形式。”我想：“这不可能是真的。”然后我开始深入研究有关此的文献-
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and it's kind of mixed.
这是一种混合的。
So to what extent does washing our hands actually help us avoid getting infection?
那么洗手到底能在多大程度上帮助我们避免感染呢？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
It's a good question, and I think it probably comes down to some of the studies are probably not good data or heterogeneous enough to do a meta-analysis.
这是一个很好的问题，我认为这可能归结为一些研究可能没有好的数据或异质性足以进行荟萃分析。
But what's really interesting is how many times a day, if you were to watch yourself, that you touch your nose, you touch your face, and these are the portals for viruses to come into your body.
但真正有趣的是，如果你观察自己，每天有多少次触摸你的鼻子、你的脸，这些都是病毒进入你身体的门户。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Eyes.
眼睛。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Eyes, nose, mouth.
眼睛、鼻子、嘴巴。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
That's where they come in.
这就是他们进来的地方。
We touch them all the time.
我们一直在触摸它们。
You touch handles.
你触摸手柄。
If you think about it, it's almost creepy.
如果你仔细想想，这几乎是令人毛骨悚然的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It is creepy.
真是令人毛骨悚然。
And flu and cold can survive out on surfaces for how long?
流感和感冒可以在表面存活多久？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
I'd have to look up the numbers, but it's longer than you might think.
我得查一下数字，但它比你想象的要长。
I know that when we looked at COVID, I know we went crazy at the beginning of the COVID pandemic about wiping things down, and really that's not the way it seems to spread, for COVID and more airborne things.
我知道，当我们研究新冠病毒时，我知道我们在新冠病毒大流行开始时疯狂地想把东西抹掉，但实际上，对于新冠病毒和更多空气传播的东西来说，这并不是它的传播方式。
But for influenza droplets, that is rotavirus, C.
但对于流感飞沫来说，那就是轮状病毒，C.
diff, that's Clostridium difficile infection of the bowel.
diff，这是肠道艰难梭菌感染。
That's the primary way that it actually spreads.
这是它实际传播的主要方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Our Place.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商“我们的地方”。
Our Place makes my favorite pots, pans, and other cookware.
我们的地方生产我最喜欢的锅、平底锅和其他炊具。
Surprisingly, toxic compounds such as PFAS or forever chemicals are still found in 80% of non-stick pans, as well as utensils, appliances, and countless other kitchen products.
令人惊讶的是，80% 的不粘锅以及餐具、电器和无数其他厨房产品中仍然含有 PFAS 或永久化学物质等有毒化合物。
Now, I've talked before on this podcast about these PFAS or forever chemicals like Teflon, which have been linked to major health issues such as hormone disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems.
现在，我之前在这个播客中谈到过这些 PFAS 或特氟龙等永久性化学物质，它们与激素破坏、肠道微生物组破坏、生育问题和许多其他健康问题等重大健康问题有关。
So it's really important to avoid them.
因此，避免它们非常重要。
This is why I'm a huge fan of Our Place.
这就是为什么我是《我们的地方》的超级粉丝。
Our Place products are made with the highest quality materials and are all PFAS and toxin-free.
我们的 Place 产品采用最优质的材料制成，不含 PFAS 和毒素。
I particularly love their Titanium Always Pan Pro.
我特别喜欢他们的 Titanium Always Pan Pro。
It's the first non-stick pan made with zero chemicals and zero coating.
这是第一个采用零化学品和零涂层制成的不粘锅。
Instead, it uses pure titanium.
相反，它使用纯钛。
This means it has no harmful forever chemicals, and it also doesn't degrade or lose its non-stick effect over time.
这意味着它不含永久有害的化学物质，并且不会随着时间的推移而降解或失去不粘效果。
It's extremely durable, and it's also beautiful to look at.
它非常耐用，而且看起来也很漂亮。
I cook eggs in my Titanium Always Pan Pro almost every morning.
我几乎每天早上都会用 Titanium Always Pan Pro 煮鸡蛋。
The design allows for the eggs to cook perfectly without sticking to the pan.
该设计使鸡蛋能够完美烹饪而不会粘在锅上。
I also cook burgers and steaks in it, and it puts a really nice sear on the meat.
我还用它来做汉堡和牛排，它给肉带来了非常好的烤焦效果。
But again, nothing sticks to the pan, so it's really easy to clean, and it's even dishwasher safe.
但同样，锅上不会粘任何东西，因此非常容易清洁，甚至可用洗碗机清洗。
I love it, and I use it every day.
我喜欢它，并且每天都使用它。
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Our Place 限时提供 Titanium Always Pan Pro 20% 的独家折扣。
If you go to the website fromourplace.com/huberman and use the code SAVEHUBERMAN20, you can claim the offer.
如果您访问网站 fromourplace.com/huberman 并使用代码 SAVEHUBERMAN20，则可以领取优惠。
With a 100-day risk-free trial, free shipping, and free returns, you can experience this fantastic cookware with absolutely zero risk.
通过 100 天无风险试用、免费送货和免费退货，您可以在绝对零风险的情况下体验这款出色的炊具。
Again, that's fromourplace.com/huberman to get 20% off.
再次强调，来自ourplace.com/huberman 可以享受 20% 的折扣。
Let's talk about water and air I think I, like many people, am curious as to how much water I drink.
让我们谈谈水和空气吧，我想我和很多人一样，很好奇我喝了多少水。
Is that influencing my susceptibility to infections, et cetera?
这是否会影响我对感染等的易感性？
Water on the body, water we get into, this kind of thing.
身体上的水，我们进入的水，诸如此类的东西。
And then air, humidity, temperature, ozone.
然后是空气、湿度、温度、臭氧。
Anything interesting in those?
其中有什么有趣的事情吗？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Let's talk about water.
我们来谈谈水吧。
So the most obvious one is the internal use of water, and what's interesting about that is that we actually can do a blood test on people, and it's called the sodium concentration.
所以最明显的一个是水的内部使用，有趣的是我们实际上可以对人进行血液测试，它被称为钠浓度。
One of the first things you learn as a medical student is that the sodium concentration in somebody has very little to do with how much sodium they take into their body.
作为一名医学生，您首先要了解的事情之一是，某人体内的钠浓度与他们摄入体内的钠量关系不大。
It has much more to do with how much water they take into their body.
这与他们摄入体内的水量有很大关系。
So the more water they take in, the lower the sodium concentration goes, but it's very well-regulated.
因此，它们摄入的水越多，钠浓度就越低，但它的调节非常好。
There's a study that was done a number of years ago that looked at the chances of death, so mortality, and sodium concentration, and as sodium concentration went up, so did the chances of dying.
几年前进行了一项研究，考察了死亡机会、死亡率和钠浓度，随着钠浓度的上升，死亡的机会也随之增加。
So it's important to drink water.
所以喝水很重要。
How much water?
多少水？
There's this old eight glasses of water thing.
有一个古老的八杯水的东西。
It's probably not that much, but it certainly is important.
它可能不是那么多，但它确实很重要。
So internal use of water is well known.
因此水的内部使用是众所周知的。
It's a substrate that allows your kidneys to dump toxins, and you need to flush those things out.
它是让你的肾脏排出毒素的底物，你需要将这些东西排出体外。
And you sweat, especially if you're exercising, you're going to need to take more water in because you're sweating, you're breathing faster, you have something called insensible losses of water.
你会出汗，尤其是在运动时，你需要摄入更多的水，因为你出汗了，你的呼吸加快了，你有一种叫做“无意识的水分流失”的现象。
But I think the other part of water that I'd like to talk about is not the internal use of water, which is pretty obvious and the data's there, but the external use of water.
但我认为我想谈论的水的另一部分不是水的内部使用，这是非常明显的并且有数据，而是水的外部使用。
And the reason why I bring that up is in the context of what we're talking about, which is illnesses in flus and viruses.
我之所以提出这个问题是在我们正在讨论的背景下，即流感和病毒疾病。
One of the properties of water that is very, very important is its high enthalpy.
水非常非常重要的特性之一是它的高焓。
What does that mean?
这意味着什么？
It means it takes a lot of energy to raise water, the substance, one degree Celsius.
这意味着将水这种物质升高一摄氏度需要大量能量。
And the opposite is also true.
反之亦然。
So if you put warm water on someone, it can transfer a lot of energy into that person without losing temperature.
因此，如果你把温水放在某人身上，它可以将大量能量转移到那个人身上，而不会失去温度。
Why is that important?
为什么这很重要？
If you want to increase someone's body temperature, water is a very good way of doing it.
如果你想提高某人的体温，水是一个很好的方法。
If you've ever gone into a sauna and it's a dry sauna, you haven't yet put the little ladle onto the heating, you can tolerate 170, 180 degree sauna pretty well.
如果你曾经去过桑拿房，而且是干桑拿房，你还没有把小勺放在暖气上，你就可以很好地忍受170、180度的桑拿房。
As soon as you put that water on, the heat just starts to come down on you, and that's because water is such a very good way of transmitting that heat.
一旦你放上水，热量就会开始传到你身上，这是因为水是传递热量的一种非常好的方式。
So why is that important?
那么为什么这很重要呢？
Let's put that away for a little bit and I'll explain why that's important.
让我们先把它放在一边，我会解释为什么这很重要。
Let's switch gears and talk about viruses in the immune system.
让我们换个话题来谈谈免疫系统中的病毒。
So your immune system is divided into two components, an innate immune system and an adaptive immune system.
因此，您的免疫系统分为两个部分：先天免疫系统和适应性免疫系统。
The adaptive immune system is what we've all learned about in terms of vaccines and antibodies and all the things, the discussion that we've had the last four or five years.
适应性免疫系统是我们在疫苗和抗体等方面所了解的，也是我们过去四五年进行的讨论。
You see something very specific, your immune system does, and it makes an antibody directly against that.
你看到一些非常具体的东西，你的免疫系统看到了，它会产生直接针对它的抗体。
If it's slightly different, the antibody response is not going to be as effective.
如果略有不同，抗体反应就不会那么有效。
So it's very highly tuned, very specific.
所以它是非常高度调整的，非常具体的。
That's the adaptive immune system.
这就是适应性免疫系统。
The innate immune system, on the other hand, is the one that goes out first, gobbles things up, and presents it to the adaptive immune system.
另一方面，先天免疫系统是第一个出去的系统，吞噬东西并将其呈现给适应性免疫系统。
But there's also something else in the innate immune system that's very important, and that is the system that has to do with recognizing damaged molecules and recognizing pathological molecules.
但先天免疫系统中还有一些非常重要的东西，那就是与识别受损分子和识别病理分子有关的系统。
There are certain pathological patterns, PAMPs, pathological-associated molecular patterns, that the innate immune system recognizes without ever having seen it, and it can take those things out.
先天免疫系统在未曾见过的情况下就能识别出某些病理模式（PAMP）、病理相关分子模式，并且可以将这些模式剔除。
And the greatest tool that the innate immune system has to take those things out is something called interferon.
先天免疫系统清除这些物质的最好工具是干扰素。
Interferon's an extremely important molecule.
干扰素是一种极其重要的分子。
It has a very wide-ranging ability to take out viruses.
它具有非常广泛的消灭病毒的能力。
Something that's important to understand is that with all of the variants that we've been talking about with COVID, with all of the different strains that we have of influenza, none of that matters with interferon.
需要了解的重要一点是，对于我们一直在谈论的新冠病毒的所有变种，以及我们拥有的所有不同的流感病毒株，这些都与干扰素无关。
And that's why it's such an important molecule.
这就是为什么它是一个如此重要的分子。
It's been said that the immune system is so well designed that there are no viruses that can infect it unless they have countermeasures.
据说免疫系统设计得非常好，除非有对策，否则任何病毒都无法感染它。
And that is absolutely true.
这是绝对正确的。
This was first seen when SARS-CoV-2 came out.
这是在 SARS-CoV-2 出现时首次出现的。
They looked at SARS-CoV-1, the original one that came out in 2002, and sure enough, that virus, SARS-CoV-1, if you want to call it that, or just SARS, had a mechanism contained within it to neutralize and to suppress the secretion of interferon.
他们研究了 SARS-CoV-1，即 2002 年首次出现的病毒，果然，这种病毒，SARS-CoV-1，如果你想这么称呼它，或者只是 SARS，其中包含一种中和和抑制干扰素分泌的机制。
They did some searching, and they looked at SARS-CoV-2, and sure enough, Mac-1, which is a gene in SARS-CoV-2, is a gene that is specifically, I don't want to say designed, but it's there to get around interferon.
他们做了一些搜索，研究了 SARS-CoV-2，果然，Mac-1（SARS-CoV-2 中的一个基因）是一个专门设计的基因，我不想说是设计的，但它的存在是为了绕过干扰素。
That should tell you how important interferon is.
这应该告诉你干扰素有多重要。
So with that in mind, let's go back to our talk about water and temperature.
考虑到这一点，让我们回到关于水和温度的讨论。
There was a number of studies that had been done looking at temperature, interferon, and what they showed.
已经进行了许多研究，着眼于温度、干扰素及其显示的结果。
This was an in vitro study where they took lymphocytes, they put it into a medium, and they bathed it in LPS.
这是一项体外研究，他们提取淋巴细胞，将其放入培养基中，然后将其浸入 LPS 中。
LPS is basically a molecule that is seen in bacteria that usually sets off the immune system.
LPS 基本上是细菌中常见的一种分子，通常会引发免疫系统。
So you have lymphocytes, you have LPS, and then what they did was they slowly increased the temperature, and they measured interferon.
所以你有淋巴细胞，有脂多糖，然后他们所做的就是慢慢升高温度，并测量干扰素。
Once it hit 39 degrees Celsius There was a tenfold increase in interferon secretion from the lymphocytes.
一旦达到39摄氏度，淋巴细胞分泌的干扰素就会增加十倍。
Thirty-nine degrees for those who are on the Fahrenheit system, that's about 102.2.
对于采用华氏温度系统的人来说，三十九度约为 102.2 度。
Okay, so-
好吧，那么——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Slight fever
轻微发烧
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
...
...
slight fever, yeah.
轻微发烧，是的。
Or a good fever.
或者发烧就好了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah, a good fever.
是的，发烧很好。
So what does this mean?
那么这意味着什么呢？
This means that, and this gets into the whole discussion philosophically about fevers in general.
这意味着，这涉及到关于发烧的整个哲学讨论。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Should you block them?
你应该阻止他们吗？
Should you not?
你不应该吗？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
And I'll tell you, in the hospital I'll get so many calls, "Hey, Doctor, this patient has a fever." And the idea is that the fever is part of the problem-
我告诉你，在医院里我会接到很多电话，“嘿，医生，这个病人发烧了。”这个想法是发烧是问题的一部分——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
...
...
and we need to fix the fever because it's part of the problem.
我们需要解决发烧问题，因为这是问题的一部分。
By the way, that was the same thought process in the 1918 Spanish flu pandemic that we had.
顺便说一句，这与我们在 1918 年西班牙流感大流行时的思维过程相同。
Aspirin had just been discovered, Bayer Aspirin, 1899, and it was great it seemed, because aspirin took away fever, it took away the body aches, it took away the pain, and all of that was subscribed to the virus that was going on.
阿司匹林刚刚被发现，拜耳阿司匹林，1899年，看起来很棒，因为阿司匹林消除了发烧，消除了身体酸痛，消除了疼痛，而所有这一切都与正在发生的病毒有关。
They didn't even know it was a virus, just the influenza disease.
他们甚至不知道这是一种病毒，只知道流感疾病。
And so it was being used almost excessively.
因此它几乎被过度使用。
In fact, in many cases, probably toxically.
事实上，在很多情况下，可能是有毒的。
In these army hospitals in 1918, people were coming in with the flu, young people were coming in with the flu, and they were getting high doses of aspirin.
1918 年，在这些陆军医院里，人们都感染了流感，年轻人也感染了流感，他们服用了大剂量的阿司匹林。
They thought this was the way to treat it, and the case fatality rate was, like, 6%.
他们认为这就是治疗方法，病死率大概是 6%。
It might have been even higher than that.
它可能比那还要高。
So getting back to water, external use of water.
所以回到水，外用水。
Here is a way to deliver large amounts of energy that can be stored in water as a substance to the patient to elevate, to actually help elevate body temperature to see whether or not we can improve the innate immune system to actually help out in that type of a situation.
这是一种提供大量能量的方法，这些能量可以作为一种物质储存在水中，供患者升高，实际上有助于提高体温，看看我们是否可以改善先天免疫系统，从而在这种情况下真正提供帮助。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So we're talking about hot baths?
那么我们谈论的是热水澡吗？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Hot baths, sauna.
洗热水澡，桑拿。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hot shower?
热水淋浴吗？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Hot showers.
热水淋浴。
Probably the most effective way of doing it is, and the old term, and again, something that was used 100 years ago, is hydrotherapy or hot fomentations is the term that you'll find if you look at the old literature.
Probably the most effective way of doing it is, and the old term, and again, something that was used 100 years ago, is hydrotherapy or hot fomentations is the term that you'll find if you look at the old literature.
This is where they would get hot towels, linen towels.
这是他们拿到热毛巾、亚麻毛巾的地方。
They would soak it in water.
他们会把它浸泡在水中。
They would heat it up, usually in a stove, but you could do the same thing in a microwave.
他们通常会在炉子中加热它，但你也可以在微波炉中做同样的事情。
The big thing is that you have to make sure you don't burn yourself.
最重要的是你必须确保不会烧伤自己。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or the house down.
或者房子倒了。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
And so you would put a protective layer of batting or cloth on the patient, and this would go on top of them, and you would basically cover them up until you started to see them sweat, and you do that for about 20 minutes.
And so you would put a protective layer of batting or cloth on the patient, and this would go on top of them, and you would basically cover them up until you started to see them sweat, and you do that for about 20 minutes.
Once you start to see them sweat, you know that you're elevating the body temperature above the set point.
一旦你开始看到他们出汗，你就知道你的体温已经升高到设定点以上。
And what that's supposed to do is to activate the immune system to secrete interferon.
其作用是激活免疫系统分泌干扰素。
Look, we have studies.
瞧，我们有研究。
There was a study that was published a couple of years ago looking at COVID.
几年前发表了一项针对新冠病毒的研究。
Giving exogenous interferon to people with COVID-19 reduced hospitalizations by 50%.
给 COVID-19 患者服用外源干扰素可减少 50% 的住院率。
So you're getting around-
所以你四处走动-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can take exogenous interferon?
可以服用外源干扰素吗？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can take it as a pill?
可以当药丸吃吗？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
It's an infusion.
这是输液。
You would digest it in the stomach.
你会在胃里消化它。
So this was an infusion that they gave to patients.
这是他们给病人注射的输液。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm surprised that I haven't heard of peptide clinics selling interferon.
我很惊讶我没有听说过肽诊所有卖干扰素。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can you inject interferon subcutaneously?
可以皮下注射干扰素吗？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
You can, and this was actually published in "The New England Journal of Medicine." It was interferon lambda, I believe, and it was a phase III trial looking at getting FDA approval.
你可以，这实际上发表在《新英格兰医学杂志》上。我相信这是干扰素 lambda，这是一项旨在获得 FDA 批准的 III 期试验。
I think probably because of the fact that we weren't having as many hospitalized patients, it probably hasn't gone through.
我想可能是因为我们没有那么多住院病人，所以它可能还没有完成。
But in that study, it reduced hospitalizations by 50%.
但在那项研究中，它使住院率减少了 50%。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
For those that don't have access to interferon infusions-
对于那些无法获得干扰素输注的人 -
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or a sauna or even a bath, so what is it, a 5- to 10-minute hot shower, then get under the blankets, this kind of thing?
或者桑拿，甚至洗澡，那是什么呢，洗个5到10分钟的热水澡，然后盖上毯子，这种事？
I mean, this is kind of good old-
我的意思是，这有点老了——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
good old mom's advice-
老妈妈的好建议——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Absolutely
绝对
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
kind of stuff.
之类的东西。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Isn't it interesting?
是不是很有趣？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
So I'll tell you what the protocol was.
所以我会告诉你协议是什么。
And actually, this is quite interesting historically.
事实上，这在历史上是相当有趣的。
There were a number of sanitariums in the Northeast of the United States back at that time of the century, and they were run by the Adventist Church, and their way of dealing with the pandemic was different.
There were a number of sanitariums in the Northeast of the United States back at that time of the century, and they were run by the Adventist Church, and their way of dealing with the pandemic was different.
They were not using drug medications.
他们没有使用药物。
They were using hydrotherapy and sunlight, some of the things that we've been talking about here.
他们使用水疗和阳光，这是我们在这里讨论的一些方法。
And there was a guy by the name of Wells Ruble, who was the medical director of the New England Sanitarium, and he said, "Let's just take a look and see what's going on here.
And there was a guy by the name of Wells Ruble, who was the medical director of the New England Sanitarium, and he said, "Let's just take a look and see what's going on here.
Let's pool the 10 sanitariums in this area, see what's gone on in terms of the way we treat the patients, and then look at the published data from the army hospitals." And there was a stark difference.
Let's pool the 10 sanitariums in this area, see what's gone on in terms of the way we treat the patients, and then look at the published data from the army hospitals."并且存在明显的差异。
He divided it into two sections.
他把它分成两部分。
The first phase of influenza is the early phase, and the major endpoint of that early phase was did they get pneumonia, okay?
流感的第一阶段是早期阶段，早期阶段的主要终点是他们是否得了肺炎，好吗？
And then from pneumonia, the second endpoint after that was the second phase, and the question was did they die?
然后是肺炎，第二个终点是第二阶段，问题是他们死了吗？
So where the sanitarium seemed to do a much better job than in the army hospitals was in that first phase.
因此，在第一阶段，疗养院似乎比军队医院做得更好。
They had one-sixth of the people actually go to the pneumonia phase.
他们有六分之一的人实际上进入了肺炎阶段。
So what were they doing?
那么他们在做什么呢？
Immediately, they were doing hydrotherapy.
他们立即进行水疗。
Immediately, they were doing, which was basically increasing body temperature, doing fever types of treatments, getting them out into the sunlight.
Immediately, they were doing, which was basically increasing body temperature, doing fever types of treatments, getting them out into the sunlight.
You can remember, maybe in your mind's eye, these photographs of these army hospitals or these army camps, and the tents were outside-
也许在你的脑海里，你还记得这些军队医院或军营的照片，帐篷就在外面——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
...
...
because they didn't have any place to put them in some of these cases.
因为在某些情况下他们没有任何地方可以放置它们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
So the sunlight was good, but the thing that they weren't doing was the hydrotherapy.
所以阳光很好，但他们没有做水疗。
Once they got to the pneumonia stage, there was no difference between what the sanitariums were doing and the army hospitals.
一旦到了肺炎阶段，疗养院的做法和部队医院就没有什么区别了。
The mortality was 50%.
死亡率为50%。
Remember, this is prior to penicillin.
请记住，这是青霉素之前的情况。
This is 1918.
这是1918年。
This is before 1928 when we discovered penicillin.
这是1928年我们发现青霉素之前的事。
So once you hit pneumonia, it was really difficult to treat.
所以一旦得了肺炎，治疗起来就非常困难。
So he actually wrote this up, and someone directed it to me.
所以他实际上写了这个，然后有人把它交给了我。
They actually showed it to me.
他们实际上向我展示了它。
It wasn't even in a scientific journal that he published it in.
他甚至没有在科学期刊上发表过它。
It was some sort of periodical called "Life and Health," May 1st, 1919.
这是一本名为《生命与健康》的期刊，1919 年 5 月 1 日出版。
I still remember it in my head, and he says, "Hey, this is what we did.
我仍然记得在我的脑海里，他说：“嘿，这就是我们所做的。
This is what they did." They had one-sixth of the mortality in their institution, and this was repeated multiple times.
这就是他们所做的。”他们的机构有六分之一的死亡率，而且这种情况已经重复了多次。
This is not done in isolation.
这不是孤立完成的。
Let's lead you up to the big thing here.
让我们带领您了解这里的大事。
There was a Nobel Prize that was given for this.
为此颁发了诺贝尔奖。
In 1927, Jules Wagner-Jauregg was a Austrian psychiatrist who noticed that in his patients that had neurosyphilis, that when they had a fever, their symptoms improved.
In 1927, Jules Wagner-Jauregg was a Austrian psychiatrist who noticed that in his patients that had neurosyphilis, that when they had a fever, their symptoms improved.
So this is, again, prior to penicillin.
所以这又是在青霉素之前出现的。
He actually took patients with malaria, and he took the blood from these patients and carefully infected his neurosyphilis patients with malaria.
He actually took patients with malaria, and he took the blood from these patients and carefully infected his neurosyphilis patients with malaria.
And of course, you know that malaria causes very, very high fevers.
当然，你知道疟疾会引起非常非常高的发烧。
He cured neurosyphilis by causing fevers from malaria.
他通过引起疟疾发烧来治愈神经梅毒。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wild.
狂野。
And all he really had to do was heat them up.
他真正要做的就是把它们加热。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
There was many ways of doing it at the time, heat closets, sometimes they would inject foreign proteins to create a fever.
当时有很多方法，加热衣柜，有时他们会注入外来蛋白质来产生发烧。
This was another way of doing it with malaria.
这是治疗疟疾的另一种方法。
Of course, at the time, they had the treatment for malaria, right?
当然，当时他们有治疗疟疾的方法，对吗？
Quinine.
奎宁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, and LPS will do this.
好吧，LPS 会做到这一点。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
LPS, as you mentioned, is-
正如你提到的，LPS 是-
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
lipid polysaccharide.
脂质多糖。
I think they get it from yeast cell wall or something.
我认为他们从酵母细胞壁或其他东西中获取它。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes.
是的。
It's a foreign antigen.
这是外来抗原。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It's a contaminant in a lot of gray market peptides and things that I suggest people don't take.
它是许多灰色市场肽和我建议人们不要服用的东西中的污染物。
There are a lot of people now who are interested in peptides, and they buy them on the gray market, and it says, "Not for human or animal use.
现在有很多人对肽感兴趣，他们在灰色市场上购买它们，上面写着：“不适用于人类或动物。
Research purposes only." And people often say, "Well, why not use those?
仅供研究用途。”人们经常说：“那么，为什么不使用这些呢？
Why do people have to go through a physician and a compounding pharmacy if they're going to explore that territory at all?"
如果人们要探索那个领域，为什么必须经过医生和复方药房呢？”
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the reason is, it's very clear that most of the gray market peptides have LPS in them.
原因是，很明显，大多数灰色市场的肽都含有脂多糖。
Small amounts, but injected repeatedly over time, people start getting the systemic inflammation and fever response.
少量但随着时间的推移反复注射，人们开始出现全身炎症和发烧反应。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
There you go.
就这样吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a little bit of a tangent, but it gets to the same mechanism.
这有点偏离，但它达到了相同的机制。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So when you say the use of water in this context, it's really about trying to heat up the core temperature of the body.
因此，当您在这种情况下提到使用水时，实际上是在尝试加热身体的核心温度。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
And so when we think about Russian banyas, which I'm a huge fan of, there's a bunch of them in different cities.
因此，当我们想到我非常喜欢的俄罗斯浴场时，我发现不同的城市都有很多这样的浴场。
Whenever I'm in New York, I go to this place down on Wall Street, Spa 88.
每当我在纽约时，我都会去华尔街的这个地方，Spa 88。
I have no relation to them.
我和他们没有任何关系。
And they have a medium hot sauna.
他们有一个中等温度的桑拿浴室。
For Russians-
对于俄罗斯人来说——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
medium hot is very hot.
中热非常热。
It's like spice in certain restaurants.
它就像某些餐馆里的香料。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You have to calibrate to the local ethnicity.
你必须适应当地的种族。
And then they have very hot sauna.
然后他们有非常热的桑拿。
And what they do there, even when they're not sick, is they'll go from a moderately hot to hot to steam, and then back to a hot sauna, then into cold water.
And what they do there, even when they're not sick, is they'll go from a moderately hot to hot to steam, and then back to a hot sauna, then into cold water.
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So they're doing heat cold contrast therapy, and the Eastern Europeans and Russians and Scandinavians have been doing this for centuries.
所以他们正在做热冷对比疗法，东欧人、俄罗斯人和斯堪的纳维亚人已经这样做了几个世纪。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Here we think of it as biohacking and this new-
在这里，我们将其视为生物黑客，而这种新的-
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
domain of health, but this has been going on for a very long time.
健康领域，但这种情况已经持续了很长时间。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
So in my mind, anthropologically, I'm wondering, those cultures that don't have access to the sunlight that we have here, maybe they use this as a way of supplementing that.
So in my mind, anthropologically, I'm wondering, those cultures that don't have access to the sunlight that we have here, maybe they use this as a way of supplementing that.
Because we don't see-
因为我们看不到——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In winter.
在冬天。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
In winter, right.
冬天的话，对吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
So we don't see that.
所以我们没有看到这一点。
We don't see a lot of sauna use near the equator in any kind of culture.
在任何一种文化中，我们都没有看到赤道附近有很多桑拿浴的使用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I'm sure they exist down there, but I feel like Brazil in the summertime probably feels like a sauna.
我确信它们就在那里，但我觉得夏天的巴西可能感觉就像桑拿房。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you don't need a sauna.
所以你不需要桑拿。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Whereas-
鉴于——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
Siberia in winter-
冬天的西伯利亚——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
probably feels a lot like the way I imagine Siberia in winter.
可能感觉很像我想象的冬天的西伯利亚。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
If you look at probably the biggest purveyor of this type of therapy that we're talking about, hydrotherapy, was at the Battle Creek Sanitarium in Battle Creek, Michigan.
If you look at probably the biggest purveyor of this type of therapy that we're talking about, hydrotherapy, was at the Battle Creek Sanitarium in Battle Creek, Michigan.
And they had whole protocols for this.
他们对此有完整的协议。
And when I looked it up, the general protocol for this was 20 minutes of hot, followed by a very short, probably a minute, of cold that involved some sort of physical rubbing or sort of abrasion on the chest.
And when I looked it up, the general protocol for this was 20 minutes of hot, followed by a very short, probably a minute, of cold that involved some sort of physical rubbing or sort of abrasion on the chest.
Okay?
好的？
And when I saw that, it's like I immediately thought of what they do in Finland, where they hit themselves with-
当我看到这个时，我立刻想到了他们在芬兰所做的事情，他们在那里用——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
The Russians use these eucalyptus branches.
俄罗斯人使用这些桉树枝。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Eucalyptus?
桉树？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It is.
是的。
It's eucalyptus branches.
这是桉树枝。
I think it's called platza or something like that.
我认为它被称为广场或类似的东西。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And yeah, it costs a little bit more, but if you go to one of these Russian banyas, you can pay someone who's skilled in this.
是的，它的成本有点高，但如果你去这些俄罗斯浴场之一，你可以付钱给擅长这方面的人。
They basically make you lie down, you cover your face and groin, and then they hit you with these- ...
他们基本上会让你躺下，遮住你的脸和腹股沟，然后他们用这些东西打你——......
eucalyptus branches.
桉树枝。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not to smack you with them.
不是用它们打你。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now the idea is that in the sauna, you're going to bring some of the additional vasodilation to the surface of the skin, so you're getting more blood flow to the periphery, is the idea.
Now the idea is that in the sauna, you're going to bring some of the additional vasodilation to the surface of the skin, so you're getting more blood flow to the periphery, is the idea.
I don't know if there's any truth to it, but-
我不知道这是否属实，但是——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
My understanding from what I've heard and read is that obviously the heat part is to heat up the core body temperature.
根据我所听到和读到的，我的理解是，显然热量部分是为了加热核心体温。
And that has a whole host of responses, which I'll touch on after this.
这有很多回应，我将在这之后谈到。
I read a recent article that was just amazing.
我最近读了一篇文章，真是太棒了。
But the cold part of it is going to cause vasoconstriction.
但它的寒冷部分会引起血管收缩。
And we know this in medicine.
我们在医学上知道这一点。
We're actually taught this in medical school, that a cold shower, vasoconstriction causes demargination of the white blood cells that are actually attached to the inside of your blood vessels, and it knocks them into circulation.
We're actually taught this in medical school, that a cold shower, vasoconstriction causes demargination of the white blood cells that are actually attached to the inside of your blood vessels, and it knocks them into circulation.
So if you think about this, what is it that you're doing?
所以如果你想一想，你在做什么？
When you're doing the heat aspect and the fever goes up and the temperature is basically a non-hormonal signal to the entire body to start up regulation and transcription, and then the very last thing is the cold.
当你进行热方面时，发烧会升高，温度基本上是向整个身体发出的非激素信号，以启动调节和转录，然后最后一件事就是寒冷。
Now what does that do?
那有什么作用呢？
Number one, it knocks those cells into circulation to go wherever they need to go.
第一，它让这些细胞进入循环，去往它们需要去的地方。
That's number one.
这是第一。
And number two, vasoconstriction peripherally, which is what you will see, prevents that heat that you've just built up from going out to the periphery and being lost.
第二，你将看到的外周血管收缩，可以防止你刚刚积聚的热量散发到外周并散失。
So it kind of locks the heat in, in a sense, allowing that heat to last longer.
So it kind of locks the heat in, in a sense, allowing that heat to last longer.
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing.
太棒了。
Could you just repeat one more time, even though you said it incredibly clearly-
尽管你说得非常清楚，但你能再重复一遍吗——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
this phenomenon of how the White blood cells are liberated by cold and constriction?
白细胞是如何因寒冷而收缩而释放出来的这种现象呢？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So imagine a tube that's lined with white blood cells.
想象一下一个衬有白细胞的管子。
They all have little podocytes, little things that attach.
They all have little podocytes, little things that attach.
And what happens when you have vasoconstriction is it causes vasoconstriction, it shrinks down because of the smooth muscle in the wall, and you have release of these white blood cells into the circulation.
当您发生血管收缩时，会发生什么，它会导致血管收缩，由于血管壁中的平滑肌而收缩，并且您将这些白细胞释放到循环中。
And that's called demargination.
这就是所谓的取消边界。
So after a cold shower, you will actually be able to see, and this is kind of a trick question, does one's white blood cell count go up after a cold shower?
所以洗完冷水澡后，你实际上就能看到，这是一个棘手的问题，洗完冷水澡后，白细胞计数会上升吗？
The answer is, technically you have the same number of white cells, but now they're just more of them in the circulation.
答案是，从技术上讲，你的白细胞数量是相同的，但现在循环中的白细胞数量更多了。
So yes, the number that you get back on the lab test shows that it's gone up.
所以，是的，你在实验室测试中得到的数字表明它已经上升了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the white blood cells, for those that aren't familiar, they essentially go out and-
And the white blood cells, for those that aren't familiar, they essentially go out and-
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
These are the macrophages, the neutrophils, these are all different branches, if you will, of the armed forces of your body that go out to try to find things and neutralize them.
这些是巨噬细胞、中性粒细胞，如果你愿意的话，这些都是你身体武装力量的不同分支，它们出去试图寻找事物并消灭它们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this is part of the innate immune response.
这是先天免疫反应的一部分。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is not-
这不是——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Both, actually.
实际上两者都是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
White blood cells, right.
白细胞，对吧。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
White blood cells are involved in the adaptive immune response as well.
White blood cells are involved in the adaptive immune response as well.
Amazing.
惊人的。
I've never heard of deliberate cold exposure being used to liberate white blood cells in that way, but it makes perfect sense.
我从来没有听说过故意冷暴露被用来以这种方式释放白细胞，但这是完全有道理的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It sounds like it's largely mechanical.
听起来这很大程度上是机械的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
It is.
是的。
And it also may seem to be mechanical in terms of locking that heat in.
And it also may seem to be mechanical in terms of locking that heat in.
So, one of the things that I always was puzzled about is I don't know how many people are able to really get their core body temperature up to 102.2.
所以，我一直困惑的一件事是，我不知道有多少人能够真正让核心体温达到102.2。
It's possible.
这是有可能的。
You'd have to really try to do it.
你必须真正尝试去做。
And then I came across a paper that was incredible.
And then I came across a paper that was incredible.
And this was a paper where they actually looked at mice, which by the way, I looked this up, they actually have the same target temperatures that humans have.
在这篇论文中，他们实际上观察了小鼠，顺便说一句，我查了一下，它们实际上具有与人类相同的目标温度。
And also hamsters, and again, same target temperature.
还有仓鼠，同样的目标温度。
And what they showed in this, they looked at the innate immune system and the signaling that's required for the secretion of interferon.
他们在此展示的是，他们研究了先天免疫系统和干扰素分泌所需的信号传导。
And they looked at STAT and Jak.
他们看着 STAT 和 Jak。
These were the two areas or signaling.
这是两个区域或信号。
And what they showed was essentially that whereas before I had told you that you had to go up to 39 degrees Celsius to get a tenfold increase in interferon secretion, what they did was they looked at 36, 37, 38, and 39, and they saw a jump going from 37 to 38.
他们所展示的基本上是，虽然我之前告诉过你，你必须升高到 39 摄氏度才能使干扰素分泌增加十倍，但他们所做的是他们观察了 36、37、38 和 39，他们看到了从 37 到 38 的跳跃。
So in other words, at 38 degrees, which is only 100.4 Fahrenheits, there was a dramatic increase in the signaling in probably six or seven different areas of the STAT and the Jak system signaling.
换句话说，在 38 度（仅为 100.4 华氏度）时，STAT 和 Jak 系统信号传导的大约六到七个不同区域的信号传导急剧增加。
When they did further analysis, they said, "What's going on here?
When they did further analysis, they said, "What's going on here?
Is it the lack of breakdown of mRNA?
是因为 mRNA 缺乏分解吗？
What's actually happening?" This is the conclusion that they came to after they did all the molecular studies.
究竟发生了什么？” This is the conclusion that they came to after they did all the molecular studies.
It was simply just the increase in temperature that was causing an increase in transcription in the nucleus.
It was simply just the increase in temperature that was causing an increase in transcription in the nucleus.
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Transcription of?
转录?
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Of the proteins.
蛋白质。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Leading to more interferon.
导致更多的干扰素。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Correct.
正确。
So we're talking about not the transcription of the protein interferon, but the transcription of the factors that regulate the increase in interferon.
因此，我们讨论的不是干扰素蛋白的转录，而是调节干扰素增加的因子的转录。
Yeah.
是的。
So it was basically transcription in the nucleus is actually upregulated itself by nothing else other than temperature.
所以基本上，细胞核中的转录实际上除了温度之外没有其他任何因素上调。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love it.
我喜欢它。
One thing that people might want to play with a little bit, although they should be careful.
One thing that people might want to play with a little bit, although they should be careful.
If you're pregnant, forget the sauna for a while.
如果您怀孕了，请暂时忘记桑拿。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Everyone has different thresholds for heat tolerance and cold tolerance.
Everyone has different thresholds for heat tolerance and cold tolerance.
But spend a little time in a Russian banya and you'll soon realize that they all wear these wool hats.
但在俄罗斯浴场呆上一段时间，你很快就会发现他们都戴着这些羊毛帽子。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you might think, "Oh, well, that's just going to heat you up more." No, it insulates you against the heat.
And you might think, "Oh, well, that's just going to heat you up more."不，它可以让你隔热。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so you can stay in much longer because the signal to get out, that it's going too hot, is a brain signal first.
And so you can stay in much longer because the signal to get out, that it's going too hot, is a brain signal first.
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Oh, wow.
哦，哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which makes sense.
这是有道理的。
Your brain basically evokes something analogous to the gasp reflex when you're not getting enough oxygen, right?
Your brain basically evokes something analogous to the gasp reflex when you're not getting enough oxygen, right?
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So if you go in there with a towel on your head or you cover your head, what you find is that you can sit comfortably at much hotter temperatures in the sauna.
因此，如果你头上盖着毛巾或者盖住头进去，你会发现你可以在桑拿房的高温下舒服地坐着。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Got it.
明白了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That could be a problem because you don't want to burn your skin.
这可能是一个问题，因为您不想烧伤皮肤。
But the sauna actually provides a lot more degrees of freedom and exploration safely than does hot bath.
但桑拿实际上比热水浴提供了更多的自由度和安全的探索。
Because if you get into a bath that's truly too hot, you'll burn your skin.
因为如果你进入太热的浴缸，你的皮肤就会被灼伤。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Whereas in the sauna, you might go into a very hot sauna.
而在桑拿浴室中，您可能会进入非常热的桑拿浴室。
I'm very heat tolerant.
我非常耐热。
I don't like the cold so much, but I do it anyway.
我不太喜欢寒冷，但我还是这么做了。
But I'm very heat tolerant, but when I first hit a 210-degree sauna, which is very warm sauna, if your head isn't covered, your heart starts racing, you feel like you want out of there.
但我很耐热，但是当我第一次去210度的桑拿，这是非常温暖的桑拿时，如果你的头没有被盖住，你的心跳就会开始加速，你感觉你想离开那里。
If you go in there wearing a wool beanie cap-
如果你戴着羊毛无檐小便帽进去-
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you're fine.
你很好。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're fine because the brain signal doesn't get kicked off for a while.
You're fine because the brain signal doesn't get kicked off for a while.
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
So that's interesting because I've seen some old photographs of when they used to do this in mass in the big hospitals back east 100 years ago.
这很有趣，因为我看过一些 100 年前他们在东部大医院大规模这样做的旧照片。
And there was these treatment rooms, and each of the treatment rooms had a little hole in-- not a little hole, but a hole enough to put your head.
还有这些治疗室，每个治疗室都有一个小洞——不是一个小洞，而是一个足以放进你的头的洞。
And so it was kind of funny because you see this long hallway and all of these humans' heads sticking out of a hole.
And so it was kind of funny because you see this long hallway and all of these humans' heads sticking out of a hole.
While the treatment was going on inside the room, their heads were outside the room.
当治疗在房间内进行时，他们的头却在房间外面。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It's so amazing how humans find the same solutions through different portals.
人类如何通过不同的门户找到相同的解决方案，真是太神奇了。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
It is true.
这是真的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm fascinated by this.
我对此很着迷。
Every once in a while, I sit back from the information that we touch on in this podcast since we launched in 2021, and I think there are so many different tools and protocols, and you're providing additional ones today.
自 2021 年推出以来，我每隔一段时间就会停下来回顾一下我们在这个播客中谈到的信息，我认为有很多不同的工具和协议，而你们今天提供了更多的工具和协议。
They almost all fall into about six to 10 batches.
它们几乎都分为六到十批左右。
And whether one comes through the portal of traditional Western medicine or Eastern medicine or what the Fins or the Russians do or what they do, it's so interesting that we're talking light-
无论是通过传统西方医学还是东方医学的门户，还是芬兰人或俄罗斯人所做的事情，或者他们所做的事情，这都很有趣，我们正在轻松地谈论——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
temperature, and these things obviously relate.
温度，和这些东西显然有关系。
Hydration, which I'm sure we'll talk about.
保湿，我相信我们会讨论这个问题。
Mitochondria, cellular metabolism.
线粒体，细胞代谢。
There isn't an infinite number of conceptual themes, and they tend to sort of batch into them.
概念性主题的数量并不是无限的，它们往往是批量化的。
And I think understanding those themes helps people make decisions.
我认为理解这些主题有助于人们做出决定。
Like if you're on the road and you're feeling run down after getting off the plane and you're thinking you might be coming down with something, you get that little throat tickle-
就像如果你在路上，下飞机后感到精疲力尽，你认为自己可能感染了什么东西，你就会感到喉咙发痒——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You only have access to a hot shower, that's your best bet.
你只能洗个热水澡，这是你最好的选择。
Do that.
这样做。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You don't need a sauna.
你不需要桑拿。
Ideally, you're getting sunlight.
理想情况下，你会得到阳光。
You don't have sunlight, you can take some of the other measures that we were talking about before.
你没有阳光，你可以采取我们之前讨论过的其他一些措施。
Yeah, I find it fascinating that humans eventually converge on the same answers.
是的，我发现人类最终会趋于相同的答案，这很有趣。
It just sort of varies in terms of what you call these things.
只是你对这些东西的称呼有所不同。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You call it hydrotherapy.
你称之为水疗。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I call it deliberate heat exposure-
我称之为故意热暴露-
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
deliberate cold exposure in some cases.
在某些情况下故意暴露在寒冷中。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
And people from all over the world in different cultures have talked to me.
来自世界各地不同文化背景的人们都跟我交谈过。
In Asia, in the Middle East, and they say, "You know what?
在亚洲、在中东，他们说：“你知道吗？
My grandmother, my mother, they used to do this to us all the time.
我的祖母，我的母亲，他们过去总是这样对我们。
They put us in the hot sand." I remember someone telling me from Iraq.
他们把我们置于热沙之中。”我记得有人在伊拉克告诉我。
They said, "If we were sick, they would put us into the hot sand to heat us up." And then you talk to somebody from the 1950s, grandma would say, "Oh, they put us to bed and make sure we're all warm with the covers and-"
他们说：“如果我们生病了，他们就会把我们放到热沙里取暖。”然后你和 20 世纪 50 年代的人说话，奶奶会说，“哦，他们让我们上床睡觉，并确保我们都盖上被子暖和——”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hot water bottle.
热水瓶。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Hot water bottle.
热水瓶。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
In Asia, they would do something different.
在亚洲，他们会做一些不同的事情。
I've heard them tell it.
我听他们说过。
It's interesting to me how all of these cultures that really haven't connected necessarily have come up with the same answers for a lot of these things.
对我来说有趣的是，所有这些真正没有联系的文化都必然对很多事情给出相同的答案。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That said, there are things that purportedly we can take to accelerate our progression through an illness should we get one-
也就是说，据称，如果我们得了一种疾病，我们可以采取一些措施来加速疾病的进展——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and to help avoid illness.
并帮助避免疾病。
One of the things I'm most interested in is your thoughts on NAC, N-acetylcysteine.
我最感兴趣的事情之一是您对 NAC（N-乙酰半胱氨酸）的看法。
My understanding is that a few years ago in this country, there was an FDA ban on N-acetylcysteine, but that the people who had already been taking N-acetylcysteine were so bullish about it that they fought back.
我的理解是，几年前在这个国家，FDA 禁止使用 N-乙酰半胱氨酸，但那些已经服用 N-乙酰半胱氨酸的人对此非常看好，以至于他们进行了反击。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it has remained freely available without a prescription.
而且它一直免费提供，无需处方。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My understanding is that N-acetylcysteine requires a prescription in some countries.
我的理解是，N-乙酰半胱氨酸在某些国家需要处方。
Could you tell us what the various uses of N-acetylcysteine are, and what its potential role is for avoiding or even accelerating the progression through a viral or other type of infection?
您能否告诉我们 N-乙酰半胱氨酸的各种用途是什么，以及它在避免甚至加速病毒或其他类型感染的进展方面的潜在作用是什么？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So the N-acetyl-- I sometimes say N-acetylcysteine.
所以 N-乙酰基——我有时说 N-乙酰基半胱氨酸。
It may be just my Canadian accent coming through.
这可能只是我的加拿大口音的问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm guessing.
我猜。
Oh, I didn't realize you were Canadian.
哦，我不知道你是加拿大人。
I'm guessing you are correct, and I'm incorrect.
我猜你是对的，而我是错的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
No, I think you are correct because people have corrected me.
不，我认为你是对的，因为人们已经纠正了我。
So I think if I say it, if I slip up, that's what happens, so.
所以我想如果我说出来了，如果我说错了，那就会发生这样的事情，所以。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mum, mom.
妈妈，妈妈。
Ninth grade, grade nine.
九年级，九年级。
These are all Canadian.
这些都是加拿大人。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
That is true.
确实如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
So probably the most obvious one to start with is the one that actually we use all the time in the hospital, and it's for Tylenol overdose.
因此，最明显的一开始可能就是我们在医院里一直使用的药物，它是用于治疗泰诺过量的药物。
And that's because the metabolism of Tylenol depletes the liver of these reducing agents, glutathione, things of that nature.
这是因为泰诺的代谢会消耗肝脏中的这些还原剂、谷胱甘肽等类似物质。
So N-acetylcysteine is going to replace that, and that's one of the things that's well-known.
因此，N-乙酰半胱氨酸将取代它，这是众所周知的事情之一。
We actually have dosing protocols.
我们实际上有剂量方案。
We have nomograms to tell us when we should use it, when we shouldn't use it, and it's very well documented.
我们有列线图告诉我们何时应该使用它，何时不应该使用它，并且它有很好的记录。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it supports liver metabolism.
因此它支持肝脏代谢。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
It supports liver metabolism and prevents the liver from going into failure.
它支持肝脏新陈代谢并防止肝脏衰竭。
So people could literally die if we didn't give them this medication.
因此，如果我们不给他们这种药物，人们实际上可能会死亡。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Does it also effectively treat liver failure due to other things like alcohol?
它是否也能有效治疗因酒精等其他原因引起的肝衰竭？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
That's an excellent question.
这是一个很好的问题。
I would say if you asked me that question 20 to 25 years ago, I would've said, "No, there's no evidence." But now, if you talk to some GI specialists, they'll say, "Yeah, there's some data that it actually may be beneficial.
我想说，如果你在 20 到 25 年前问我这个问题，我会说：“不，没有证据。”但现在，如果你与一些胃肠道专家交谈，他们会说，“是的，有一些数据表明它实际上可能是有益的。
It's certainly not going to hurt." And so in patients who have liver failure from one thing or another, they may actually recommend using that medication as well, N-acetylcysteine.
这当然不会造成伤害。”因此，对于因某种原因导致肝功能衰竭的患者，他们实际上可能会建议使用这种药物，即 N-乙酰半胱氨酸。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So NAC is a glutathione precursor.
所以NAC是谷胱甘肽的前体。
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
It is one that it's recharging.
这是一个正在充电的东西。
So if you want to think about it in terms of redox, this is a good way to think about it, is think about a sulfur element with a hydrogen attached to it.
因此，如果你想从氧化还原的角度来思考它，这是一个很好的思考方式，就是考虑一个带有氢的硫元素。
That is the reduced form because it can donate that proton off, and it'll be in a reduced situation.
这是还原形式，因为它可以捐出质子，并且它会处于还原状态。
So it can reduce something that was oxidized.
所以它可以还原被氧化的东西。
However, when it reduces something that was oxidized, and it does that in a good way, it itself becomes oxidized.
However, when it reduces something that was oxidized, and it does that in a good way, it itself becomes oxidized.
And instead of having an SH, it's now SS.
现在不再是 SH，而是 SS。
So now it's oxidized.
所以现在已经氧化了。
That's really important in a lot of places because of that SS bond.
由于党卫军债券，这在很多地方都非常重要。
So you'll know that the SS bonds occurs in amino acids.
So you'll know that the SS bonds occurs in amino acids.
It's the reason why you can perm your hair.
这就是为什么你可以烫头发的原因。
You may not know that, but the way your hair is is because of SS bonds.
You may not know that, but the way your hair is is because of SS bonds.
And then what you do is you reduce all of those SS bonds, in other words, basically disconnecting them, and then you can curl it however you want.
然后你要做的就是减少所有这些 SS 键，换句话说，基本上断开它们，然后你可以随心所欲地卷曲它。
And then when you take it away, those SS bonds clamp down, and you have a perm.
然后当你把它拿走时，那些党卫军债券就会被夹住，你就可以烫发了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All right.
好吧。
Next episode, I'll show up looking like a Chia Pet.
Next episode, I'll show up looking like a Chia Pet.
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
That's the reason why when you go to get a perm, that stuff smells like rotten eggs is because that's the sulfur group.
这就是为什么当你去烫发时，那东西闻起来像臭鸡蛋，因为那是硫磺基团。
Yeah.
是的。
So that's also, by the way, the same reason why, and this gets into a little bit other discussion about why I think NAC maybe, I'll just call it NAC, is used in other areas, is this is also the main reason why we get thrombosis of platelets.
顺便说一句，这也是同样的原因，这进入了一些其他讨论，关于为什么我认为 NAC 可能，我简称为 NAC，被用于其他领域，这也是我们血小板血栓形成的主要原因。
So pulmonary artery, if you have the endothelial lining, which makes sure that the red blood cells as they're going through the pulmonary artery are not causing clots.
因此，肺动脉，如果有内皮细胞，可以确保红细胞在通过肺动脉时不会引起血栓。
If that endothelial lining would become damaged, it would release underneath it and expose a huge collection of something called von Willebrand factor.
如果内皮层受损，它会在其下方释放并暴露出大量称为冯·维勒布兰德因子的物质。
Von Willebrand factor is a monomer, but it quickly becomes a polymer, and the way it does that is in forming SS bonds.
冯维勒布兰德因子是一种单体，但它很快就会变成聚合物，其方式是形成 SS 键。
So that's a quick polymerization.
所以这是一个快速聚合。
Then, of course, the next step that happens is that these polymers will then trap platelets and cause them to clump, and you will get something called a white clot.
当然，下一步是这些聚合物会捕获血小板并导致它们凝结，你会得到一种叫做白色凝块的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So for those that aren't familiar with monomers and polymers and this kind of thing, basically you're taking a bead and you're creating the polymer, which is more like beads on a string.
因此，对于那些不熟悉单体和聚合物以及此类事物的人来说，基本上您正在使用珠子并创建聚合物，这更像是绳子上的珠子。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that can capture more things, like a big clumpy, sticky molecules-
它可以捕获更多的东西，比如大块状、粘性的分子——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Correct
正确
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
aren't quote unquote "bad or good," but in this context, they're definitely bad.
并不是“坏或好”，但在这种情况下，它们绝对是坏的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
They would be, yeah.
他们会的，是的。
So imagine now, if you will, the pulmonary artery in somebody who becomes infected.
So imagine now, if you will, the pulmonary artery in somebody who becomes infected.
With either influenza or COVID-19.
患有流感或 COVID-19。
And that causes an oxidative stress situation where you have the cell having more oxidative stress than it should, causes dysfunction of the cell, the cell becomes damaged, peels back, releases some of the von Willebrand factor, and now you have clots in the pulmonary artery.
这会导致氧化应激情况，细胞氧化应激超过应有的水平，导致细胞功能障碍，细胞受损，脱落，释放一些冯维勒布兰德因子，现在肺动脉中出现血栓。
This is something actually that we did see with COVID.
这实际上是我们在新冠疫情中看到的。
When they did the autopsies, they found many times more of these specific white clots in these patients.
当他们进行尸检时，他们在这些患者身上发现了很多倍的这种特定的白色凝块。
And so I don't know if that's the mechanism that's occurring in influenza, but there was a lot of papers that were published in COVID.
所以我不知道这是否是流感中发生的机制，但在新冠病毒中发表了很多论文。
And the interesting thing about that is that, do you remember when they had a paper that was published looking at blood types-
And the interesting thing about that is that, do you remember when they had a paper that was published looking at blood types-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
...
...
and COVID.
和新冠病毒。
And they said, "You know what?
他们说：“你知道吗？
What we're finding is that those with type O blood are just slightly less susceptible to getting COVID.
What we're finding is that those with type O blood are just slightly less susceptible to getting COVID.
They have a slightly less mortality."
他们的死亡率略低。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, that was a relief to me because I'm O blood.
Yeah, that was a relief to me because I'm O blood.
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Well, the interesting thing about that it's well-known, is that people with type O blood have slightly less von Willebrand factor.
众所周知，有趣的是，O 型血的人的血管性血友病因子略少。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
So does that mean in general that we clot less?
那么这是否意味着我们总体上凝血较少？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
If that clotting is related to von Willebrand factor and platelets, then yes.
If that clotting is related to von Willebrand factor and platelets, then yes.
There's other ways of causing clotting cascade, but yes.
There's other ways of causing clotting cascade, but yes.
So I found it really interesting.
所以我觉得这真的很有趣。
There was two independent points that sort of connected each other.
There was two independent points that sort of connected each other.
The other thing that was actually really interesting about this, and this will lead to the conversation about NAC and why I was using it in actually patients with COVID-19 and influenza, and we'll talk about that study too, is the ACE2.
另一件非常有趣的事情是 ACE2，这将引发关于 NAC 的讨论，以及为什么我在实际患有 COVID-19 和流感的患者中使用它，我们也会讨论这项研究。
So ACE2 is the receptor for the spike protein for SARS-CoV-2.
因此 ACE2 是 SARS-CoV-2 刺突蛋白的受体。
True.
真的。
But let's take it one step further.
但让我们更进一步。
That ACE2, what is it actually there for?
那个ACE2，它到底有什么用呢？
Why is it even there?
为什么它还在那里？
It's not there to be a receptor for spike protein.
它不存在刺突蛋白的受体。
The actual job that ACE2 does is it converts angiotensin II, which is a pro-oxidant, into angiotensin 1-7, which is an antioxidant.
The actual job that ACE2 does is it converts angiotensin II, which is a pro-oxidant, into angiotensin 1-7, which is an antioxidant.
So let's go back to the beginning of our discussion again.
So let's go back to the beginning of our discussion again.
Here's the mitochondria.
这是线粒体。
The mitochondria's doing what it needs to do, and it's producing oxidative stress.
The mitochondria's doing what it needs to do, and it's producing oxidative stress.
And it's got all these different enzymes that are there to lessen the heat from that engine.
它含有所有这些不同的酶，可以减少发动机产生的热量。
Catalase, glutathione peroxidase, superoxide dismutase, melatonin, as we discussed at the beginning, and angiotensin 1-7.
过氧化氢酶、谷胱甘肽过氧化物酶、超氧化物歧化酶、褪黑激素（正如我们在开始时讨论的那样）和血管紧张素 1-7。
So now what happens?
那么现在会发生什么呢？
You've got these patients that have obesity.
这些患者患有肥胖症。
You have these patients that have cancer, heart disease, dementia.
You have these patients that have cancer, heart disease, dementia.
These are people whose engines are running hot.
这些人的引擎正在热转。
They're barely making it because of all of the oxidative stress damage that has occurred.
由于氧化应激损伤的发生，他们几乎无法做到这一点。
Now what happens, this virus comes in, spike protein, hits the ACE2 receptor, and now that thing that was in balance is now out of balance because you're no longer taking a pro-oxidant and making an antioxidant.
现在会发生什么，这种病毒进来，刺入蛋白质，攻击 ACE2 受体，现在平衡的东西现在失去平衡，因为你不再服用促氧化剂并制造抗氧化剂。
So now the analogy is that you're in a car, and the heat in the engine's barely-- It's coming up.
所以现在的类比是，你在一辆汽车里，发动机中的热量几乎没有上升。
You're barely making it, and now you approach a hill called COVID-19, and you're going up that hill.
你差一点就成功了，现在你接近了一座名为 COVID-19 的小山，并且你正在爬上那座山。
You're going to burn out.
你会精疲力竭的。
Your engine's going to overheat.
你的引擎会过热。
And that's what was happening with these patients.
这就是这些患者身上发生的事情。
Remember they were coming in happy hypoxics, they were calling them.
请记住，他们是带着幸福的缺氧而来的，他们这样称呼他们。
They were there.
他们就在那里。
They looked they were fine, but they were severely hypoxic.
They looked they were fine, but they were severely hypoxic.
What I believe what was happening, and there's some data to show this is the case, is that as the virus went into the lungs, and I believe this also happens with influenza, the virus was getting into the pulmonary circulation, and as it was going down, it was binding to the very rich ACE2 receptors on all of these pulmonary endothelial cells.
我相信正在发生的事情，并且有一些数据表明这种情况，是当病毒进入肺部时，我相信流感也会发生这种情况，病毒进入肺循环，当它下降时，它与所有这些肺内皮细胞上非常丰富的 ACE2 受体结合。
And it was causing these enzymes to stop working, and now the oxidative balance was being knocked out.
它导致这些酶停止工作，现在氧化平衡被破坏。
These cells were becoming damaged.
这些细胞正在受损。
They were peeling off.
它们正在剥落。
Von Willebrand's factor was coming into circulation, and this polymerization was occurring, and these white clots were occurring, and that was leading to hypoxemia.
冯·维勒布兰德因子进入循环，这种聚合正在发生，这些白色凝块正在发生，这导致了低氧血症。
How do we stop that from happening?
我们如何阻止这种情况发生？
Well, certainly one way of doing it is to make sure that the redox balance in these cells are maintained.
嗯，当然，做到这一点的一种方法是确保维持这些细胞中的氧化还原平衡。
And one way of doing that is light and melatonin and all the things that we just talked about.
做到这一点的一种方法是光和褪黑激素以及我们刚才谈到的所有东西。
But another way of doing it, in addition, would potentially be in preventing those sulfide bonds from forming and causing polymerization.
但除此之外，另一种方法可能是防止这些硫键形成并引起聚合。
And that's where you have NAC, which is basically, it would go through to those S-S bonds that are causing the polymerization and break them off.
这就是 NAC 的所在，基本上，它会穿过那些引起聚合的 S-S 键并将其断裂。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
So I started taking NAC at, I think at 600 milligrams or even 900 milligrams three to four times per day, which is a very high dose.
所以我开始服用 NAC，我认为是 600 毫克甚至 900 毫克，每天三到四次，这是一个非常高的剂量。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But restricted to times when I felt like I might be coming down with an infection, or I was traveling in the winter months.
但仅限于我觉得自己可能感染了，或者在冬季旅行的时候。
I still do this.
我仍然这样做。
Or if I had any kind of low-level congestion.
或者如果我有任何低程度的拥堵。
And my understanding is that it's a mucolytic.
我的理解是它是一种粘液溶解剂。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes.
是的。
Because mucus, again, the reason why mucus is so thick is because of those S-S bonds.
因为粘液，粘液之所以如此粘稠，是因为那些 S-S 键。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
So when you put NAC in there, it breaks it off and now it's liquidy.
因此，当您将 NAC 放入其中时，它会将其分解，现在它变成了液体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
It's used to treat cystic fibrosis-
它用于治疗囊性纤维化 -
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and to counteract the buildup of fluid in the lungs, as I understand.
据我所知，还可以抵消肺部积液。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it will make your nose run-
所以它会让你流鼻涕-
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a bit if you have a low, low-level congestion.
如果拥堵程度很低的话，会稍微有点。
But what I love about it, and to be clear, folks, I don't have any relationship to any company that sells NAC.
但我喜欢它的原因是，各位，要明确的是，我与任何销售 NAC 的公司没有任何关系。
I'm not paid by the big NAC- ...
我没有得到大型 NAC 的报酬-...
or anything similar.
或类似的东西。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Or Big Mac.
或者巨无霸。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, or Big Mac.
不，还是巨无霸。
Certainly not by Big Mac, but by big NAC either.
当然不是巨无霸，而是大NAC。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I don't like conventional decongestants.
但我不喜欢传统的减充血剂。
I like steam.
我喜欢蒸汽。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I don't like taking over-the-counter decongestants of the sort of conventional commercial type because they tend to be very drying.
但我不喜欢服用传统商业类型的非处方减充血剂，因为它们往往非常干燥。
They sometimes have a little bit of a stimulant quality to them.
他们有时有一点兴奋的品质。
I just don't like them.
我只是不喜欢他们。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I find that NAC, in addition to increasing glutathione, which can only be a good thing-
我发现NAC除了增加谷胱甘肽之外，这只能是一件好事-
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is a great decongestant.
is a great decongestant.
You do have to keep blowing your nose quite a lot.
你确实必须经常擤鼻涕。
If you take it right before you go to sleep and you sleep on your back-
如果您在睡觉前服用并且仰卧睡觉 -
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you can wake up feeling more congested.
您可能会醒来时感觉更加充血。
So you have to kind of-
所以你必须-
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
understand what it's doing.
了解它在做什么。
That's why we're talking about it in this way.
这就是我们这样谈论它的原因。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I find that it's helped me move through periods of exposure to colds, maybe flus, but certainly colds, much faster.
但我发现它帮助我更快地度过了感冒（也许是流感，但肯定是感冒）的时期。
And actually, there are data to support that it can-
事实上，有数据支持它可以——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
prevent contracting the flu virus.
防止感染流感病毒。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Well, not necessarily contracting it, but certainly having the symptoms of it.
嗯，不一定感染它，但肯定有它的症状。
So this is the best study you could ever imagine.
所以这是你能想象到的最好的研究。
So this is a multi-centered, double-blinded, placebo-controlled trial.
所以这是一项多中心、双盲、安慰剂对照试验。
So you're eliminating a lot of the confounders.
所以你消除了很多混杂因素。
And what they did was, in a winter season, so I think it was over three to six months-
他们所做的是在冬季，所以我认为这已经超过三到六个月了-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
...
...
people were taking 600 milligrams of NAC twice a day.
人们每天两次服用 600 毫克 NAC。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
And what they did was they looked to see how many people got infected and what their symptoms were.
他们所做的就是观察有多少人被感染以及他们的症状是什么。
And while it did not reduce the number of infections from influenza, there was a significant reduction in the symptoms of influenza.
虽然它没有减少流感感染的数量，但流感的症状显着减轻。
So infections, no, it doesn't reduce, but symptoms dramatically.
所以感染，不，它并没有减少，但症状却显着减少。
And which symptoms specifically?
具体有哪些症状？
It's the most annoying symptoms.
这是最烦人的症状。
So the one that dropped the most was the runny nose-
所以掉得最多的就是流鼻涕了——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
...
...
and the sore throat.
and the sore throat.
That was what it was best at reducing.
这就是它最擅长减少的。
There's been some question about NAC because it's so good for cells.
人们对 NAC 存在一些疑问，因为它对细胞非常有益。
Because it replenishes.
因为它可以补充。
There are some studies in vitro, in cells that are designed to be models for cancer, that NAC can actually cause the propensity for some of these cells to grow and expand.
有一些体外研究，在被设计为癌症模型的细胞中，NAC 实际上可以导致其中一些细胞生长和扩张的倾向。
I think that probably needs to be taken with a little bit of grain of salt, because these were in models that are designed for cancer cells to grow.
我认为这可能需要半信半疑，因为这些模型是为癌细胞生长而设计的。
So the same thing would happen if you were to give nutrition to cancer cells on a Petri dish.
因此，如果你为培养皿上的癌细胞提供营养，也会发生同样的事情。
That doesn't necessarily mean that nutrition causes cancer.
这并不一定意味着营养会导致癌症。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Yeah, you raise a really important point around this.
是的，你对此提出了一个非常重要的观点。
The joke that was told to me years ago is a drug or a compound is a substance that, when injected into an animal, creates a scientific paper.
几年前有人告诉我的一个笑话是，一种药物或一种化合物是一种物质，当注射到动物体内时，会产生一篇科学论文。
Meaning it's very easy to see things change when you add-
这意味着当您添加时很容易看到事情发生变化-
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
when you do a dose response curve of just about anything.
当你做任何事情的剂量反应曲线时。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And some people might say, "Well, thank goodness.
有些人可能会说：“好吧，谢天谢地。
Are any compounds doing anything that's real, or is it all placebo?" I think there are real effects of compounds.
是否有任何化合物有真正的作用，还是只是安慰剂？”我认为化合物确实有效果。
The context is really important.
背景确实很重要。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you take NAC continuously given your job, or do you increase your dosage when you know you're coming into contact with flu patients?
您在工作中是否会持续服用 NAC，或者当您知道自己将与流感患者接触时，您是否会增加剂量？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
I do exactly as this paper was doing.
我完全按照这篇论文做的。
In a winter season, when I know that things are going to be elevated and high, and I'm going to be seeing a lot of influenza patients, I do take 600 milligrams twice a day.
在冬季，当我知道情况会变得越来越严重，而且我会去看很多流感患者时，我确实每天两次服用 600 毫克。
But I try not to do it for more than three months.
但我尽量不这样做超过三个月。
I don't know the long-term effects, but I think three months is probably good enough.
我不知道长期影响，但我认为三个月可能就足够了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I know people take it continuously.
是的，我知道人们不断地接受它。
I've never taken it continuously.
我从来没有连续服用过。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I sort of enjoy the fact that there are certain compounds out there, like NAC, that I personally can observe a benefit from if I take it for short periods in slightly higher doses, and then I stop.
我有点喜欢这样的事实：有一些化合物，比如 NAC，我个人可以观察到，如果我短时间服用稍高剂量的药物，然后停止服用，就会从中受益。
And I have the unfounded theory that it helps punctuate the effectiveness.
我有一个毫无根据的理论，即它有助于增强有效性。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because there is downregulation of pretty much every mechanism-
因为几乎所有机制都有下调——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Oh, yeah
哦，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you could possibly imagine.
你可以想象。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
There's so many redundancies that are built into the system.
系统中内置了很多冗余。
But in this situation, I don't know what the mechanism is, but I believe that with influenza, there is a tilting of the scale toward oxidative stress, and NAC, in that sense, can be very helpful.
但在这种情况下，我不知道其机制是什么，但我相信对于流感，天平会向氧化应激倾斜，从这个意义上说，NAC 可能非常有帮助。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And as I recall in the study that you described, where people took this 600 milligrams of NAC twice a day, the reduction in severe symptoms, or was it the number of people that experienced severe symptoms went from somewhere in the high 70s-
我记得在你所描述的研究中，人们每天服用两次 600 毫克的 NAC，严重症状的减少，或者是经历严重症状的人数从 70 多岁的某个地方减少了——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
percent, maybe 78% or something like that?
百分比，也许 78% 或类似的数字？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not quite exact on the numbers here, folks.
伙计们，我对这里的数字不太准确。
To about 28%?
To about 28%?
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So that's about a 50% absolute risk reduction, which if you do the math, it's a number needed to treat of two, which is extremely low and very amazing.
因此，这大约降低了 50% 的绝对风险，如果你算一下，你会发现这是一个需要治疗两个的数字，这个数字非常低，而且非常惊人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you're getting-
And you're getting-
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
an increasing glutathione to boot.
增加谷胱甘肽。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Wonderful.
精彩的。
Other things that have been shown to improve symptomology or perhaps even immune system function, maybe we could talk about zinc.
其他已被证明可以改善症状甚至免疫系统功能的物质，也许我们可以谈谈锌。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I take what most people would consider very high levels of zinc, and I've been doing it for a long time, and I'm going to continue to do it.
我服用大多数人认为含量非常高的锌，我已经这样做很长时间了，而且我将继续这样做。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because I do my blood work, and it works for me.
因为我做血液检查，这对我有用。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
I think there is actually good data for zinc.
我认为锌实际上有很好的数据。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Some people might disagree, but I think the studies that I've seen seem to show that zinc supplementation can be beneficial.
有些人可能不同意，但我认为我所看到的研究似乎表明补充锌是有益的。
The theoretical, of course, and I'm sure you're familiar with it, is the copper deficiency, and if you're checking that, then that's fine.
当然，理论上，我相信你很熟悉，就是缺铜，如果你检查一下，那就没问题了。
The recommendations that I have seen is 40 milligrams of elemental zinc.
我看到的建议是40毫克元素锌。
So you have to be careful when you look up zinc on your bottles to tell you how many milligrams, but it's the entire molecule that they're measuring.
因此，当您查看瓶子上的锌含量以告诉您有多少毫克时，您必须小心，但他们测量的是整个分子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
It'll also say how many milligrams of elemental zinc that is equivalent to.
它还会说明相当于多少毫克元素锌。
And the recommendation that I've heard from people is 40 milligrams, but if you're checking your copper levels, then you should be fine, yeah.
我从人们那里听到的建议是 40 毫克，但如果你检查你的铜含量，那么你应该没问题，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, it's never charted out by body weight either.
嗯，它也从来没有按照体重来绘制。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I weigh 215 pounds.
So I weigh 215 pounds.
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Sure.
当然。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what's the risk of copper depletion?
那么铜枯竭的风险是什么？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Blood deficiencies and things of that nature.
血虚之类的东西。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I want to get my copper levels checked.
我想检查一下我的铜含量。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It's a great blood work.
It's a great blood work.
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I believe it's in my blood panel.
我相信它在我的血液检查中。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It is in my blood panel, and I don't have a flag there, but I'll keep an eye on it.
它在我的血液面板中，我那里没有旗帜，但我会密切关注它。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Liver, I believe, also is involved with copper as well.
我相信肝脏也与铜有关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what is zinc doing to improve immune system function?
那么锌在改善免疫系统功能方面有何作用呢？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
There's a couple of enzymes that use zinc as a cofactor, and I believe that that's what it's related to.
有几种酶使用锌作为辅助因子，我相信这就是与之相关的。
I can't remember exactly which ones they are, but zinc is used as a cofactor in some of the enzymatic reactions of the immune system.
我记不清它们到底是什么，但锌在免疫系统的一些酶促反应中被用作辅助因子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Why doesn't somebody market an interferon inhaler or nasal spray?
为什么没有人销售干扰素吸入器或鼻喷雾剂？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Actually, they are looking at that.
事实上，他们正在关注这一点。
When I was researching this for the intravenous interferon, I remember seeing something about interferon in terms of a nasal spray.
当我研究静脉注射干扰素时，我记得看到过一些关于干扰素鼻喷雾剂的信息。
I haven't seen that yet, though.
不过我还没有看到。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Someone out there who's industrious can-
一个勤奋的人可以——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
can create one.
can create one.
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
It doesn't make you feel very nice.
它不会让你感觉很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
When these patients, for instance-- Well, this might be material to understand, too.
例如，当这些患者——嗯，这也可能是值得理解的。
For many years, we had hepatitis C that was incurable, and interferon actually is the cure.
多年来，我们的丙型肝炎一直无法治愈，而干扰素实际上可以治愈。
There was a point where we used to give infusions of interferon to cure people with hepatitis C.
曾经有一段时间，我们曾经通过注射干扰素来治疗丙型肝炎患者。
But when we gave them the treatment, they felt horrible, felt like they had the flu.
但当我们给他们治疗时，他们感觉很糟糕，感觉就像得了流感。
And it's for good reasons, because when you have high levels of interferon, you do have the flu.
这是有充分理由的，因为当你的干扰素水平很高时，你确实会患上流感。
It feels like that.
感觉就是这样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's worth touching on this, that-
值得一提的是——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
so much of the symptomology when we have a flu or a cold or what have you, is the immune system doing its thing.
当我们患上流感或感冒或其他什么疾病时，很多症状都是免疫系统在发挥作用。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The fever, the congestion, or-
发烧、充血，或者——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Correct
正确
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and we think of that as the illness, but it's often the byproduct of the body trying to extrude or kill this.
我们认为这是一种疾病，但它通常是身体试图挤出或杀死它的副产品。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Nobody likes congestion, so I don't mind treating that.
没有人喜欢拥堵，所以我不介意解决这个问题。
But I think out of all of those symptoms that you mentioned there, the one that I think is probably the most beneficial to keep is the fever.
但我认为，在你提到的所有这些症状中，我认为保持最有益的可能是发烧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What about these cocktails that I see of eucalyptus oil, oregano oil, all this stuff?
我看到的这些含有桉树油、牛至油等成分的鸡尾酒怎么样？
Is it completely worthless?
是不是完全没有价值了？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
No, it's not completely worthless.
不，它并不是完全没有价值。
So let's talk about the science.
那么我们来谈谈科学吧。
Let's talk about the actual data.
我们来谈谈实际数据。
I don't have a randomized control trial to give you like I did with light.
我没有像我对光所做的那样进行随机对照试验。
But there was a study that was done, and the reason why they were looking at this was a bunch of oncologists that were looking to see if there was something that could improve the immune system when people were getting chemotherapy.
但已经完成了一项研究，他们之所以关注这个问题是因为一群肿瘤学家正在寻找是否有某种东西可以在人们接受化疗时改善免疫系统。
And they did an in vitro study, so this is in vitro, but they were able to show that just a very small amount of eucalyptus oil had a tremendous impact on phagocytosis on the innate immune system.
他们做了一项体外研究，所以这是在体外，但他们能够证明，只需极少量的桉树油就能对先天免疫系统的吞噬作用产生巨大影响。
They actually did-
他们实际上做到了——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Phagocytosis, folks-
吞噬作用，各位——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
sorry for interrupting, but-
抱歉打扰了，但是——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Sorry, yeah
抱歉，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is a gobbling up of-
是吞噬-
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
bad stuff by good cells.
好细胞带来的坏东西。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
So they had these beads, and the paper showed these beads, and they were fluorescent.
所以他们有了这些珠子，纸上显示了这些珠子，它们是荧光的。
And you could see in the cells that had not yet gotten the eucalyptus oil, that there was a number of beads outside, and these cells were just kind of mosing around, and they had both light microscopy and electron microscopy.
你可以看到在尚未获得桉树油的细胞中，外面有许多珠子，这些细胞只是在周围徘徊，并且它们同时具有光学显微镜和电子显微镜。
And a few of these beads had gotten eaten up inside.
其中一些珠子已经被里面吃掉了。
And then they showed the next slide it was like a transformation with the eucalyptus oil.
然后他们展示了下一张幻灯片，这就像桉树油的转变。
So instead of these nice rounded cells, they were all of these things just coming out, like little podocytes reaching for things.
因此，它们不是这些漂亮的圆形细胞，而是所有这些刚刚长出来的东西，就像小足细胞伸手去拿东西一样。
And then a few hours later, it showed all of the beads that were outside were now inside.
几个小时后，它显示外面的所有珠子现在都在里面了。
So there was something in the eucalyptus oil itself that was stimulating the innate immune system to gobble this stuff up.
因此，桉树油本身含有某种物质，可以刺激先天免疫系统吞噬这些物质。
And again, we go back to the folksy type of old stuff.
再次，我们回到了民间风格的旧东西。
The main ingredient in Vicks VapoRub is eucalyptus oil.
Vicks VapoRub 的主要成分是桉树油。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have a theory-
我有一个理论——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that it's not going to be very kind to eucalyptus trees or koalas or anything related to eucalyptus, which is that maybe the eucalyptus oil is a mild irritant-
这对桉树、考拉或任何与桉树有关的东西来说不会很友善，也就是说，桉树油可能是一种温和的刺激物——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
at the cellular level.
在细胞水平上。
You inhale it, you get this menthol like or the odorant.
你吸入它，你会得到这种薄荷醇或气味剂。
It's kind of caustic.
有点腐蚀性。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the immune system reacts to it by activating phagocytes to go gobble up more stuff.
免疫系统会通过激活吞噬细胞来应对它，以吞噬更多的东西。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
It could very well be.
很可能是这样。
In that line of discussion, it's very imperative to understand that eucalyptus oil is never recommended to be taken internally.
在这一讨论中，非常有必要了解的是，绝对不建议内服桉树油。
There's actually been reported deaths from taking too much eucalyptus oil.
事实上，有报道称因服用过量桉树油而死亡。
So I would just put that out there, that if people think that it's going to work and more is better.
所以我只想说，如果人们认为它会起作用，而且越多越好。
Usually the way it's used and the way it has been used historically is, and for instance, in hydrotherapy, they would put maybe a few drops of that or rub it onto the skin and allow it to sink in.
通常它的使用方式和历史上的使用方式是，例如，在水疗中，他们可能会滴几滴或将其擦到皮肤上并让它渗入皮肤。
It's extremely potent.
它非常有效。
If you go online to buy eucalyptus essential oil, that should not really be taken internally.
如果您在网上购买桉树精油，那么不应该真正内服。
It's not designed for that.
它不是为此而设计的。
It's extremely potent, and sometimes I'll do that, put it on the upper lip, so I'm inhaling it.
它非常有效，有时我会这样做，把它放在上唇上，这样我就会吸入它。
It actually can be very soothing.
它实际上可以非常舒缓。
In fact, one of the things that I found very soothing, and there are actually some data in the literature on this, is if you get a cold and you're congested, is just heating up some hot water on the stove, putting a towel over your head, and just inhaling that steam.
事实上，我发现非常舒缓的事情之一，并且文献中实际上有一些关于这方面的数据，就是如果你感冒并且鼻塞，只需在炉子上加热一些热水，在头上放一条毛巾，然后吸入蒸汽即可。
It tends to open things up and decrease the congestion, and I've been known to put a couple of drops of eucalyptus oil into that, and that's actually been beneficial as well.
它往往会打开通道并减少拥堵，众所周知，我在其中滴了几滴桉树油，这实际上也是有益的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Don't ingest eucalyptus oil, folks.
伙计们，不要摄入桉树油。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'll take it as a personal insult- ...
我会把它视为个人侮辱-...
but I'm not going to take responsibility if you do it anyway.
但如果你这么做的话我不会承担责任。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a great segue to air.
这是一个很棒的转播。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've heard conflicting things vis-à-vis should we sleep with an air humidifier?
我听说过关于我们应该带着空气加湿器睡觉的相互矛盾的事情吗？
Should we sleep with a cold room under warm blankets?
我们应该在寒冷的房间里盖着温暖的毯子睡觉吗？
Lowering core body temperature definitely helps us fall asleep, but that's under conditions where we're not-
降低核心体温肯定有助于我们入睡，但那是在我们无法入睡的情况下——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
combating an illness.
与疾病作斗争。
I have had the experience several times now, to the extent that I really believe it's a real effect, where if a room is extremely cold, even if I'm under warm blankets, breathing that cold air at night, I'll often get some-
我已经有过好几次这样的经历了，以至于我真的相信这是一个真实的效果，如果一个房间非常冷，即使我盖着温暖的毯子，在晚上呼吸着寒冷的空气，我经常会得到一些——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Oh
哦
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
respiratory stuff going on, probably because of a drying out of the respiratory pathways.
呼吸道疾病正在发生，可能是因为呼吸道干燥。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah, that's very possible.
是的，这很有可能。
So let's talk about air.
那么我们来谈谈空气吧。
30,000-foot level.
30,000 英尺高度。
First of all, don't inhale anything that's not either a medicine designed for your lungs or air itself.
首先，不要吸入任何不是专为肺部设计的药物或空气本身的东西。
So It goes without saying, but smoking-
所以不言而喻，但是吸烟-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Vaping
电子烟
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
...
...
cigar smoking, vaping.
抽雪茄，抽电子烟。
Exactly.
确切地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sorry, folks.
抱歉，各位。
Vaping might be better for you than smoking, but it's still terrible for your lungs.
吸电子烟可能比吸烟对你更好，但它对你的肺部仍然很糟糕。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The vaping community hates me because they want me to say it's not carcinogenic, but the data show that it can cause popcorn lung.
电子烟界讨厌我，因为他们想让我说它不致癌，但数据显示它会导致爆米花肺。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's just not good.
这只是不好。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
No. Right before COVID hit, I can't tell you how many young kids were being admitted to my ICU on ventilators.
不。就在新冠肺炎爆发之前，我无法告诉你有多少小孩被送进我的重症监护室，需要呼吸机。
It was a little different at that time because it was so expansive that people were making vitamin E oil to cut the nicotine in, and they were making basically out of their garage brand vapes and selling it, and these kids were ending up in the ICU.
当时情况有点不同，因为它的范围如此之广，人们正在生产维生素 E 油来减少尼古丁的含量，他们基本上是用车库品牌的电子烟来生产并出售它，而这些孩子最终都住进了重症监护室。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is totally unrelated to COVID?
这和新冠病毒完全无关？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
This is totally unrelated to COVID.
这与新冠病毒完全无关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
And to be fair, totally unrelated to the brand of vaping, the brand names.
公平地说，这与电子烟品牌、品牌名称完全无关。
So this was off-label stuff, people making their own thing and selling it.
所以这是标签外的东西，人们自己制作并出售它。
It was crazy.
太疯狂了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
But let's talk about briefly the brand.
但让我们简单地谈谈这个品牌。
So yeah, we're starting to understand now that vaping doesn't have as many toxins that smoking does, but it's not a healthy choice.
所以，是的，我们现在开始明白，电子烟的毒素不像吸烟那么多，但这不是一个健康的选择。
And contrary to the thought process is that it really doesn't get people off of nicotine.
与思维过程相反的是，它确实无法让人们摆脱尼古丁。
In fact, there's higher concentrations of nicotine in the vape than in regular cigarettes.
事实上，电子烟中的尼古丁浓度比普通香烟更高。
Very high concentrations.
浓度非常高。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Incidentally, what are your thoughts on non-smoked, non-vaped, non-dipped, non-snuffed nicotine?
顺便问一下，您对非吸烟、非电子烟、非浸渍、非鼻吸尼古丁有何看法？
So nicotine gum, nicotine pouches.
所以尼古丁口香糖、尼古丁袋。
It will raise blood pressure, a vasoconstrictor, but definitely increases alertness while causing relaxation.
它会升高血压，是一种血管收缩剂，但在放松的同时肯定会提高警觉性。
I'll come clean.
我会坦白的。
I occasionally will take a milligram or two, which is very little, of nicotine gum.
我偶尔会服用一两毫克（很少）的尼古丁口香糖。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But never smoke or vape or dip or snuff it.
但切勿吸烟、吸电子烟、浸泡或吸灭它。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
I use it all the time in my patients who I'm trying to get off of smoking.
我一直在我试图戒烟的病人身上使用它。
And that's a safer alternative, especially for the lungs, right?
这是一个更安全的选择，特别是对于肺部来说，对吗？
Because these are not irritants that are going into the lungs.
因为这些不是进入肺部的刺激物。
So no problem with that, especially if it's used to get them off of smoking.
所以这没有问题，特别是如果它是用来让他们戒烟的话。
It's something that we use all the time.
这是我们一直在使用的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you use nicotine?
你使用尼古丁吗？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No.
不。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's a massive expansion in the number of people taking nicotine pouches now.
现在服用尼古丁袋的人数大幅增加。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And it's something that affects the brain, as you know.
正如你所知，它会影响大脑。
It affects the pregnant women, affects a number of aspects of the nervous system.
它影响孕妇，影响神经系统的多个方面。
And we have receptors called nicotinic receptors for a reason, because that's the neurotransmitter.
我们有称为烟碱受体的受体是有原因的，因为那是神经递质。
So, yeah, it has an effect.
所以，是的，它有效果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It is highly habit-forming/addictive.
它很容易让人上瘾/上瘾。
It does seem that at least in people 60 and older, there may be some mild cognitive sparing or enhancement due to nicotine use.
看来至少在 60 岁及以上的人中，由于尼古丁的使用，认知能力可能会有所减轻或增强。
I think that's an area that needs further exploration.
我认为这是一个需要进一步探索的领域。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I'm not familiar with that data, but certainly something to look into.
我不熟悉这些数据，但肯定值得研究。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I'm not going to try and convince you to get on nicotine.
我不会试图说服你吸食尼古丁。
I'll also say that it doesn't just hit the nicotinic receptors, it'll also hit the muscarinic-
我还要说，它不仅会击中烟碱受体，还会击中毒蕈碱-
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Absolutely
绝对
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
acetylcholine receptors.
乙酰胆碱受体。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that's one reason why if you do take nicotine gum or use nicotine gums or pouches, what you'll notice is when you don't use it, you'll feel as if your throat is a little mildly irritated, and then you take it, and it relaxes it.
这就是为什么如果您确实服用尼古丁口香糖或使用尼古丁口香糖或尼古丁袋，您会注意到，当您不使用它时，您会感觉喉咙有点轻微刺激，然后您服用它，它会放松它。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Ah.
啊。
Interesting.
有趣的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this is one of the more subtle but powerful ways in which it is habit-forming.
这是养成习惯的更微妙但更有效的方式之一。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Ah.
啊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that people feel like they're more verbally fluid, they can breathe easier when they're taking nicotine, but it's a vasoconstrictor.
当人们服用尼古丁时，他们会觉得自己的语言更加流畅，呼吸更容易，但尼古丁是一种血管收缩剂。
So that-
那么——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for those interested in performance-enhancing effects, it's pushing you in the opposite direction.
对于那些对提高表现感兴趣的人来说，它正在把你推向相反的方向。
Anyway.
反正。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
So in terms of air, we've talked about what should not be in the air.
那么在空气方面，我们已经讨论过空气中不应该有什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
But there's actually some data that's really surprising that I found during the pandemic that was interesting to me that should be in there that maybe isn't in there, and that's fresh air associated with going outside.
但实际上，我在大流行期间发现了一些令人惊讶的数据，这些数据对我来说很有趣，这些数据应该在那里，但也许不在那里，那就是与外出相关的新鲜空气。
So what is out there in the air?
那么空气中到底有什么呢？
What should be out there?
那里应该有什么？
Obviously, clean air.
显然，空气清新。
People who live next to freeways and pollution, those are bad things.
住在高速公路旁边和污染的人，这些都是坏事。
We've talked about that.
我们已经讨论过了。
But the Japanese seem to have a corner on this research.
但日本人似乎在这项研究上占据了一席之地。
It's really interesting stuff.
这真是有趣的事情。
You've heard of forest bathing.
你听说过森林浴。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
So there was a number of studies where they've taken these CEOs in Tokyo, and they took them up to the Hinoki cypress forests.
因此，他们对东京的这些首席执行官进行了多项研究，并把他们带到了扁柏树林。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sounds beautiful.
听起来很美。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
It is.
是的。
And what they found was they did actually very controlled research where they checked blood levels, and they did blood tests, and they had them walk around for three days in the forest, forest bathing.
他们发现他们实际上做了非常严格的控制研究，检查血液水平，进行血液测试，然后让他们在森林里走动三天，进行森林浴。
And they actually took air samples, and they found that there's these substances called phytoncides, which are given off by the trees.
他们实际上采集了空气样本，发现树木释放出一种叫做植物杀菌素的物质。
Not just Hinoki cypress trees, but just about any kind of tree.
不只是扁柏树，而是任何种类的树。
So fir trees, oak trees, all sorts of pine trees.
所以有冷杉树、橡树、各种松树。
And that these substances interact with our bodies, and specifically, again, the innate immune system.
这些物质与我们的身体相互作用，特别是与先天免疫系统相互作用。
They were actually able to look at chromogranin A, which is a substance that's in some of these white blood cells that fight infections.
他们实际上能够观察嗜铬粒蛋白 A，这种物质存在于一些抗感染的白细胞中。
And they were able to show that when they were in that environment, there were definite changes in the immune system toward the positive, and that these changes lasted for seven days.
他们能够证明，当他们处于那种环境中时，免疫系统发生了明显的积极变化，并且这些变化持续了 7 天。
So they did another aspect of this study.
所以他们做了这项研究的另一个方面。
So there was multiple publications that this group in Japan did.
日本这个团体发表了多篇论文。
They took these same guys, and they took them down to a hotel in Tokyo, out of the Hinoki cypress forests, and they infused these same phytoncides from these Hinoki cypress trees.
他们把这些人带到东京的一家旅馆，从扁柏树林里出来，然后从这些扁柏树中注入同样的植物杀菌素。
They basically took the oil from these trees and infused it in the hotel room.
他们基本上从这些树上提取油并将其注入酒店房间。
And they found very similar results to what they were getting out there when they were walking in the forest.
他们发现的结果与他们在森林中行走时得到的结果非常相似。
So that would seem to indicate that this was what was being made responsible.
所以这似乎表明这就是被追究责任的人。
The one difference, which was interesting, between when they were up there walking around in the forest and when they were down in Tokyo in the hotel room with the infuser, is the urinary cortisol levels were lower when they were walking in the forest than when they were in the hotel.
有趣的是，当他们在森林里散步时和在东京的酒店房间里带着输液器时，他们在森林里散步时的尿皮质醇水平比在酒店时要低。
And that's, as you know, a symbol of basically stress.
如您所知，这是基本压力的象征。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
So there is something that There is a je ne sais quoi, I guess the French would say.
所以我猜法国人会说“There is a je ne sais quoi”。
There is something, a gestalt about walking in the forest that's different than just infusing the Hinoki cypress.
在森林中漫步有一种不同于仅仅注入扁柏的感觉。
But I thought that was an interesting thing, and it kind of goes along, again, with what we were talking about at the beginning.
但我认为这是一件有趣的事情，而且它又与我们一开始谈论的内容相符。
When you're out there in nature, in the forestry, in the green, walking green spaces, we have this evidence.
当你身处大自然、森林、绿色、步行的绿色空间时，我们有这样的证据。
These leaves reflect a lot of infrared light, which we've already talked about, but there's also something else in the equation as well.
这些叶子反射大量的红外光，我们已经讨论过这一点，但方程中还有其他东西。
And it kind of leads just to bigger picture and a bigger philosophy of life, and that's the reductionism of science.
它会带来更大的图景和更大的人生哲学，这就是科学的还原论。
We're always trying to reduce something to an active ingredient to try to figure out what it is.
我们总是试图将某些东西还原为活性成分，以弄清楚它到底是什么。
But there is actually something to be said for getting these things in the environment that we would normally be getting them in.
但实际上，将这些东西放入我们通常放置它们的环境中是有道理的。
I think that's interesting.
我认为这很有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Someone made the comment recently that so much of modern health, or our attempts at being healthier in modern times is perhaps the better way to put it, is about trying to bring the out of doors indoors.
最近有人评论说，现代健康的大部分内容，或者我们在现代为变得更健康所做的尝试也许是更好的说法，就是试图将户外带入室内。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
That's correct.
这是正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We exercise in gyms, whereas we used to carry buckets of fruit and soil and-
我们在健身房锻炼，而我们过去常常提着一桶桶的水果和土壤，还有——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
we are talking about some artificial light.
我们正在谈论一些人造光。
There's no replacement, but ways to supplement sunlight with artificial light.
没有替代品，只有用人造光来补充阳光的方法。
We're just indoors a lot more.
我们只是更多地呆在室内。
And no one's suggesting that we all run around in loincloths outside all the time, but there really does seem to be many factors within outdoor environments, so many both known and unknown.
没有人建议我们总是穿着缠腰布在外面跑来跑去，但户外环境中似乎确实有很多因素，其中有很多已知的和未知的。
It seems that the reductionist approach to science, while I've made it my profession-
似乎科学的还原论方法，虽然我已经把它作为我的职业——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for many decades, it makes sense why no one thing seems to solve all the issues that we're after.
几十年来，似乎没有一件事能够解决我们所追求的所有问题，这是有道理的。
That we need to experience these things in combination.
我们需要结合起来体验这些事情。
Maybe nature is just the best way to do that.
也许大自然就是做到这一点的最佳方式。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah, and I can't help but think of some studies that have been done in the past where this has really highlighted it.
是的，我不禁想起过去所做的一些研究，这些研究确实强调了这一点。
There was some evidence they believe that people with lung cancer would do better, because they noticed that people with lung cancer did better when they had diets that were rich in vitamin E and vitamin A derivatives.
有一些证据表明，他们相信肺癌患者会表现得更好，因为他们注意到，当肺癌患者食用富含维生素 E 和维生素 A 衍生物的饮食时，他们的表现会更好。
So they said, "Oh, reductionist science.
所以他们说：“哦，还原论科学。
Let's go ahead and get vitamin E, vitamin A.
让我们继续获取维生素E、维生素A。
Let's package it.
我们把它打包吧。
Let's give them to them in high doses.
让我们给他们高剂量的药物。
Maybe this will solve lung cancer or help lung cancer." They had to stop the study early because they did worse than the control subjects.
也许这将解决肺癌或帮助肺癌。”他们不得不提前停止研究，因为他们的表现比对照组差。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Important to point that out.
重要的是要指出这一点。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That the high dose supplementation is not the same as ingesting something in the context of a food.
高剂量补充剂与在食物中摄入某些物质不同。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
And we didn't discuss it directly, but we kind of alluded to it with lights and indoor light and artificial light.
我们没有直接讨论它，但我们用灯光、室内光和人造光来暗示它。
So what do we get?
那么我们得到了什么？
The human body, since its existence, has always had blue light in the presence of red light, and altogether, the entire biological spectrum.
人体自存在以来，在红光以及整个生物光谱的存在下始终存在蓝光。
And now what we've done is we've essentially created an indoor environment where we have efficient lights, which are supposed to be-- More efficient would imply that it's equivalent.
现在我们所做的是，我们基本上创建了一个室内环境，其中我们有高效的灯光，这应该是——更高效意味着它是等效的。
But realize that LED lights, or the LED lights that are commercially available for us to buy, are energy efficient because they're not broadcasting, if you will, in the infrared or in the ultraviolet.
但请注意，LED 灯或我们在市场上购买的 LED 灯是节能的，因为它们不会传播（如果您愿意）红外线或紫外线。
It's a very specific, narrow range of visible light.
它是一种非常特殊、范围狭窄的可见光。
We alluded to this.
我们提到过这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oftentimes there's no red light in there either.
通常那里也没有红灯。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They are really blue, green, yellow, sometimes even UV light.
它们实际上是蓝色、绿色、黄色，有时甚至是紫外线。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The fluorescent lights in a department store, for instance, or in a pharmacy, I haven't done the spectral waveform analysis, but those who have, it's published, it's out there.
比如说百货商店里的荧光灯，或者药店里的荧光灯，我还没有做过光谱波形分析，但是那些做过的，它已经出版了，就在那里。
There are a lot of data about environmental, occupational health stuff, would show that the emission spectra are severely tilted toward short wavelengths, and there's hardly any red light in there.
有大量关于环境、职业健康方面的数据表明，发射光谱严重偏向短波长，而且那里几乎没有红光。
Whereas a candle, for instance, or a fire, roaring fire, roaring candle, people ask that, sorry to interrupt, is almost all orange and red light.
例如，蜡烛，或者火，熊熊的火焰，熊熊的蜡烛，人们会问，抱歉打断，几乎都是橙色和红色的光。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then people say, "Well, won't that wake me up at night?" And a lot of people are surprised to know this.
然后人们会说：“好吧，这不会在晚上吵醒我吗？”很多人知道这一点都感到惊讶。
I'll just ask you, and it's not a trick question, but how many lux do you think come from a really bright candle or a roaring fireplace?
我只是问你，这不是一个棘手的问题，但你认为一支真正明亮的蜡烛或熊熊燃烧的壁炉有多少勒克斯？
Or the brightest moonlit night on a full moon?
还是满月时最明亮的月夜？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Since you asked it that way, I'm going to try to guess the other direction and say, like, 50?
既然你这样问，我会尝试猜测另一个方向并说，比如，50？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So somewhere between one and 10 would be high level.
所以 1 到 10 之间的值就是高级别。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Okay.
好的。
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then I started, and I was like, there's no way that could be.
然后我开始了，我想，这不可能。
Right?
正确的？
How could it be?
怎么可能呢？
It's like this roaring fireplace or the moon that lights up.
就像熊熊燃烧的壁炉或照亮的月亮。
So it turns out that if you're at a campfire and we're facing one another around the campfire, I can see your face across the campfire.
所以事实证明，如果你在篝火旁，而我们在篝火周围面对面，我可以隔着篝火看到你的脸。
I can see the front of your body.
我可以看到你身体的正面。
And so it looks like it's so bright, it must wake me up.
所以看起来它是如此明亮，它必须把我吵醒。
But no, you have no trouble going back to your tent and falling asleep or your cabin.
但不，你可以毫无困难地回到帐篷或小屋入睡。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you turn away from that bright campfire, you need a flashlight to navigate even the shortest distance, which tells you that it's not very bright at all.
如果你转身离开明亮的篝火，即使是最短的距离，你也需要手电筒来导航，这告诉你它根本不是很亮。
It's very concentrated, but the fall-off of that brightness is really what indicates just how dim it really is.
它非常集中，但亮度的下降实际上表明了它到底有多暗。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But if we think about an LED coming off a wall panel to adjust temperature in a hotel room-
但如果我们考虑从墙板上安装一个 LED 来调节酒店房间的温度——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Ah
啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it has something like 100 to 400 lux.
它的亮度约为 100 至 400 勒克斯。
And yet we think of it as a dim nightlight.
然而我们却把它视为昏暗的夜灯。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Oh, okay.
哦，好吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so this is sneaky stuff.
所以这是偷偷摸摸的东西。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's really diabolical because that wall nightlight or thermostat light messes up our Glucose regulation, as shown in-
这真的很可怕，因为墙上的夜灯或恒温器灯会扰乱我们的血糖调节，如图所示-
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Oh, yeah
哦，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
really good peer-reviewed studies.
非常好的同行评审研究。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
And then the other aspect of it, and I think I learned this from you, is that the photoreceptors are in the lower portion of our retina.
然后它的另一个方面，我想我从你那里学到了这一点，那就是感光器位于我们视网膜的下部。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Or sorry, the-
或者抱歉，-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
...
...
yeah, the lower portion of our retina.
是的，我们视网膜的下部。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The retina.
视网膜。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
And so the type of light that's going to affect your circadian rhythm is going to be much more likely to do that if it's coming from up above or-
因此，如果光线来自上方或——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
...
...
at the same level than down below.
与下面相同的水平。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's right.
没错。
And the Scandinavians-
还有斯堪的纳维亚人——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
my stepmom is Scandinavian, understood this intuitively.
我的继母是斯堪的纳维亚人，直观地理解这一点。
And so in the evening, they don't have ceiling light.
所以到了晚上，他们没有顶灯。
They turn off the ceiling lights, and then they-
他们关掉天花板上的灯，然后——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Wow
哇
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
only use desk, sort of table level-
只使用桌子，某种桌子水平-
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or even floor lights.
甚至落地灯。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now, candles along the floor would be the ultimate, but it's super dangerous.
现在，地板上的蜡烛将是终极选择，但它非常危险。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we just had a bunch of fires here, and-
我们这里刚刚发生了一堆火灾，而且-
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Don't want to do that
不想那样做
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
those were outdoor fires, at first anyway.
无论如何，一开始这些都是室外火灾。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the reason we're kind of riffing in a kind of light bio improv here is that when you step back and you just look at it logically-
我们在这里重复一种轻生物即兴表演的原因是，当你退后一步，你只是逻辑地看待它时——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
we have dim days, as you pointed out before.
正如您之前指出的，我们的日子很暗淡。
We have bright evenings and nights, and it's all short wavelength-
我们有明亮的夜晚和夜晚，而且都是短波长-
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
at night.
晚上。
It's terrible.
太可怕了。
I'm beginning to think that many of the problems that we have in terms of our metabolic health, sure that has to do with food, certainly.
我开始认为我们在代谢健康方面遇到的许多问题肯定与食物有关。
Has to do with lack of exercise, and a number of things, screens, et cetera.
与缺乏锻炼以及许多因素、屏幕等有关。
But I'm convinced that the light piece is at least one of the top three, if not the top two major factors in determining the kind of obesity metabolic crisis.
但我确信，在决定肥胖代谢危机的因素中，轻的部分即使不是前两个，也至少是前三个主要因素之一。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
I completely agree with you.
我完全同意你的观点。
The one thing I was going to add to that, too, are the windows.
我还要添加的一件事是窗户。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
So you're aware, of course, in California, we need efficiency, and we have these windows called low-E glass, and they're specifically designed to filter out infrared light.
所以你当然知道，在加利福尼亚州，我们需要效率，我们有这些称为低辐射玻璃的窗户，它们是专门为滤除红外光而设计的。
So the way you can tell whether or not your window is filtering that out is just stand in it when the sun is on it.
因此，判断窗户是否过滤掉这些物质的方法是，当阳光照射到窗户上时，站在窗户里即可。
If you can feel the warmth of that sun, then you know that it's one of the old windows that's allowing that to come in.
如果你能感受到阳光的温暖，那么你就知道是其中一扇旧窗户让阳光照进来的。
If you don't feel it, that's a low-E glass.
如果感觉不到，那就是低辐射玻璃。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
And so what we've done is we've created this environment inside.
所以我们所做的就是在内部创建了这个环境。
We've gotten rid of the incandescent bulbs.
我们已经淘汰了白炽灯泡。
We have LED bulbs.
我们有 LED 灯泡。
We've gotten rid of the regular window.
我们已经摆脱了常规窗口。
It's all for energy efficiency, which is a reasonable thing to do.
这一切都是为了提高能源效率，这是合理的事情。
We need energy efficiency.
我们需要能源效率。
But no one's asked what the human collateral damage is to this type of efficiency.
但没有人问过这种效率对人类造成的附带损害是什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And we shouldn't have to take vacations to expensive sunny places to overcome this stuff.
我们不应该为了克服这些问题而去昂贵的阳光明媚的地方度假。
That's not the right way to think about it.
这不是正确的思考方式。
The way is to try and weave it into our lives at low expense or no expense.
方法就是尝试以低成本或免费的方式将其融入我们的生活。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Getting outside, for instance.
例如，外出。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Opening windows.
打开窗户。
In cars is the worst.
在汽车中是最糟糕的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what's wild is if you go to the Pacific Northwest in the fall or winter when it's really hard to get light at-- I think Seattle's the northernmost city in the contiguous US.
所以，如果你在秋天或冬天去太平洋西北地区，那会很疯狂，因为那里很难见到阳光——我认为西雅图是美国本土最北端的城市。
It's so dark up there.
那里太黑了。
And you get into an Uber, they have tinted windows.
当你坐上一辆 Uber 车时，他们的车窗是有色的。
It's so crazy.
太疯狂了。
It's so wild, especially since the research on this stuff is being pioneered largely out of the University of Washington in Seattle.
它是如此疯狂，特别是因为对这些东西的研究主要是由西雅图的华盛顿大学开创的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We've got a number of things exactly backwards, and light and our relationship to light is one of the ways in which we do.
我们已经把很多事情完全倒退了，而光以及我们与光的关系就是我们这样做的方式之一。
The problem, I think, is when we start talking like this, people think, "Oh, well, we're all supposed to have atriums and skylights and be outside all day." And it's like, yeah, actually, that would be great, and dimmer and darker at night.
我认为问题是，当我们开始这样说话时，人们会想，“哦，好吧，我们都应该有中庭和天窗，并且整天待在外面。”就好像，是的，实际上，那会很棒，而且晚上会更暗更暗。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So taking small steps towards adjusting toward bright days-
因此，采取一些小步骤来适应光明的日子-
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and very dim and dark nights is key.
非常昏暗和黑暗的夜晚是关键。
We didn't talk about incandescent bulbs.
我们没有谈论白炽灯泡。
It used to be, until about 15 years ago, that the, quote-unquote, "low-efficiency bulbs" that were present in all our homes, the bulbs that would burn out pretty often, were-- We know that the incandescent bulbs are more full spectrum.
直到大约 15 年前，我们所有家庭中都使用的是“低效灯泡”，这些灯泡经常烧坏，是——我们知道白炽灯泡的光谱更全。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They have a lot of red and orange emission.
它们发射大量红色和橙色光。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You see them as white or-- but they look a little warmer.
你看到它们是白色的或者——但它们看起来更温暖一些。
It has that warmth.
它有那种温暖。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Those are great.
那些都很棒。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Those are great.
那些都很棒。
They're harder to find now.
现在他们更难找到了。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Actually, they were illegal-
事实上，他们是违法的——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for a short while.
一会儿。
I don't think anyone was going to come to your house and arrest you, but you couldn't get them.
我不认为有人会来你家逮捕你，但你抓不到他们。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They were banned, and now they're available again is my understanding.
据我了解，它们被禁止了，现在又可以使用了。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Oh, I haven't seen them.
哦，我没见过他们。
But I know that in new constructions, they're not even putting in sockets.
但我知道在新建筑中，他们甚至没有安装插座。
They're putting in receptacles that can only be replaced with other LEDs.
他们安装的插座只能用其他 LED 灯替换。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
So in new constructions, that's what's going on.
所以在新建筑中，这就是正在发生的事情。
We'll see what happens.
我们会看看会发生什么。
I believe there is a movement right now, based on the new administration, to see if we can change some of those rules and maybe get some rule changes.
我相信现在有一个基于新政府的运动，看看我们是否可以改变其中一些规则，也许可以改变一些规则。
I believe it's with the Department of Energy, so.
我相信是能源部的事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you know who are really the smartest about this stuff?
你知道谁在这件事上真正最聪明吗？
That if you want to know where self-directed human health is going to be in five years, you know where you can look?
如果你想知道五年后自我导向的人类健康状况会怎样，你知道你可以去哪里寻找吗？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Tell me.
告诉我。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You talk to the people who are really good at maintaining aquaria and reptiles.
您与真正擅长维护水族箱和爬行动物的人交谈。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Ah.
啊。
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because those animals literally die under conditions of pure blue light.
因为这些动物在纯蓝光条件下确实会死亡。
If you've ever had fish tanks-
如果你曾经有过鱼缸——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I'm a fish ta-- You don't want to send me down this path.
我是一条鱼——你不想让我走上这条路。
But there's a very famous fish tank designer.
但有一位非常著名的鱼缸设计师。
I was a huge fan of his.
我是他的超级粉丝。
Unfortunately, he died of pneumonia when he was 60, Takashi Amano.
不幸的是，60岁的天野隆因肺炎去世。
There's museums in Japan about him.
日本有关于他的博物馆。
He developed this thing called aquascaping, which is about plants and lighting more than the fish, although there's fish in it.
他开发了一种叫做水族造景的东西，虽然里面有鱼，但它更多的是关于植物和照明而不是鱼。
And everyone-- I've been involved in aquascaping in one level or another for a while now.
大家——我已经参与了一个或另一个级别的水族造景有一段时间了。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Super geeky, I know, but the whole principle is that you're trying to create full spectrum light, plants, air.
我知道这太极客了，但整个原则是你试图创造全光谱的光、植物、空气。
You're trying to create the right conditions for these fish and other aquatic elements, like plants, to thrive.
您正在努力为这些鱼类和其他水生元素（例如植物）的繁衍生息创造合适的条件。
And anyone that understands how to maintain reptiles or understands how to-- which I'm not into, I don't like scaly things except fish-
任何懂得如何饲养爬行动物或懂得如何——我不感兴趣，我不喜欢除了鱼以外的有鳞的东西——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or aquaria, they know you can't have a dearth of long wavelength light, or all the fish get sick.
或者水族馆，他们知道不能缺少长波长光，否则所有的鱼都会生病。
The plants die.
植物死亡。
They just can't do it.
他们就是做不到。
Now, there are deep sea plants where the red light, long wavelength light doesn't get down to the bottom.
现在，深海植物中的红光、长波长光不会到达海底。
And forgive me for going off on this.
请原谅我在这件事上的失控。
Maybe I should-
也许我应该——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
just do a solo episode.
只做一个独奏集。
But-
但是——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
what's amazing is the intrinsically photosensitive cells of the eye that set our circadian rhythms and that do all this.
令人惊奇的是眼睛的固有光敏细胞决定了我们的昼夜节律并完成了这一切。
The- "reason" why the peak of the portion of the visible spectrum is where it is for those cells is because it's the wavelength of light that can go deep into water.
可见光谱部分的峰值位于这些细胞所在位置的“原因”是因为它是可以深入水中的光的波长。
If you've ever been snorkeling, you only see reds down to about-
如果你曾经浮潜过，你只能看到大约-
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
10 meters or so.
10米左右。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You swim down a little bit lower-
你游得更低一点——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and you need to bring a light with you.
你需要随身携带一盏灯。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now, of course, the fish that are red are still red down there.
当然，现在红色的鱼在下面仍然是红色的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You just can't see it because of the lack of reflectance of long wavelength light.
由于缺乏长波长光的反射率，您只是看不到它。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So we are walking around in the evening, basically being exposed to what our eye and brain think is daytime, just as our retinal sensitivity is going up.
因此，我们在晚上四处走动，基本上暴露在我们的眼睛和大脑认为是白天的环境中，就像我们的视网膜敏感度正在上升一样。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Ah.
啊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then all day we're in this and it's not bright enough.
然后一整天我们都待在里面，但光线不够亮。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So anyway, I'll stop now.
所以无论如何，我现在就停下来。
But it has me activated, as you can imagine, because you hear about all the mental health issues, the physical health issues.
但正如你可以想象的那样，它让我兴奋起来，因为你听说了所有的心理健康问题、身体健康问题。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think they're all downstream, as you pointed out, of mitochondrial dysfunction.
正如你所指出的，我认为它们都是线粒体功能障碍的下游。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Put differently, mitochondrial function is downstream of proper relationship to light.
换句话说，线粒体功能位于与光的适当关系的下游。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which you so beautifully illustrated, and I learned a ton that I hadn't known before about that.
你的插图非常精美，我学到了很多我以前不知道的东西。
Okay.
好的。
If I continued on aquaria, we won't do that.
如果我继续做水族馆，我们就不会这么做。
This will be the longest podcast episode ever.
这将是有史以来最长的播客剧集。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd love to talk a little bit about two more things.
我想再谈谈两件事。
We will return to NEWSTART.
我们将回到NEWSTART。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I want to know about long COVID.
但我想了解长期的新冠病毒。
Is long COVID a real thing?
长新冠病毒是真的吗？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And what is long COVID?
什么是长新冠病毒？
What can be done about long COVID?
对于长期的新冠肺炎我们能做什么？
Most people by now have had COVID at a high level or a low level.
到目前为止，大多数人的新冠病毒感染程度都处于高水平或低水平。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How do you know if you have long COVID?
如何知道自己是否患有长期新冠肺炎？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Long COVID is defined as having a number of different types of symptoms.
长期新冠肺炎被定义为具有多种不同类型的症状。
Typically, it's fatigue, could be headaches, could be all sorts of things, even loss of taste and smell, for more than 12 weeks after the infection.
通常，感染后 12 周以上会出现疲劳、头痛、各种症状，甚至味觉和嗅觉丧失。
So we're talking a good three months.
所以我们正在谈论美好的三个月。
The thing about long COVID, in my experience and what I've seen, is that it's very heterogeneous, and it can be due to many different things.
根据我的经验和所见，长期新冠肺炎的情况是，它是非常异质的，并且可能是由于许多不同的原因造成的。
So it's been very difficult to put together exactly what the issue is.
因此，很难准确地整理出问题所在。
But I'll tell you, as a physician, as a pulmonologist, one of the cardinal symptoms of long COVID is shortness of breath.
但我会告诉你，作为一名医生，作为一名肺科医生，长期感染新冠病毒的主要症状之一是呼吸急促。
And so because I'm a lung doctor and people believe that shortness of breath always has to do with the lungs, I get a lot of consults for people who have shortness of breath, long COVID, after they were infected months ago.
因为我是一名肺部医生，人们认为呼吸短促总是与肺部有关，所以我收到了很多在几个月前感染后呼吸短促、长期感染新冠病毒的人的咨询。
And so a lot of these people came to me, and one of the things I had to do was research this topic.
所以很多人来找我，我必须做的事情之一就是研究这个话题。
And as it turns out, not for everybody, but for many people with long COVID, guess what's at the center of long COVID?
事实证明，不是每个人，而是许多长期感染新冠病毒的人，猜猜长期感染新冠病毒的核心是什么？
And actually, we have research to show this.
事实上，我们有研究证明了这一点。
Mitochondrial dysfunction.
线粒体功能障碍。
The thing that gets them COVID is the thing that keeps them actually having long COVID.
导致他们感染新冠病毒的因素实际上是让他们长期感染新冠病毒的原因。
So there was a study that was done looking at metabolism, and it was one of these plots where they looked at upregulation and downregulation of metabolism in the mitochondria.
因此，有一项针对新陈代谢的研究，他们在其中一个图中观察了线粒体中新陈代谢的上调和下调。
And they looked at the enzymes of glycolysis, if you can remember back all those enzymes, and they looked at the enzymes of beta-oxidation, so fatty acid, basically, oxidation.
他们研究了糖酵解酶，如果你还记得所有这些酶的话，他们研究了β-氧化酶，所以脂肪酸，基本上是氧化。
And it was pretty well shown that there was a significant downregulation in people with long COVID versus people who had COVID that didn't have long COVID, that had a downregulation in beta-oxidation.
有充分证据表明，与未长期感染新冠病毒的人相比，长期感染新冠病毒的人的β-氧化水平显着下调。
So they were not able to very well utilize and metabolize fatty acids in the mitochondria.
因此他们无法很好地利用和代谢线粒体中的脂肪酸。
Why is this the case?
为什么会这样呢？
Well, based on what we talked about earlier, certainly one of the possibilities here is that they were infected with COVID.
嗯，根据我们之前谈到的情况，其中一种可能性肯定是他们感染了新冠病毒。
It downregulated for many of the systems in their body, oxidative stress mechanisms, caused damage to their mitochondria, and we don't know why, but perhaps the areas of the mitochondria that were damaged most had to do with beta-oxidation and fatty acids.
它下调了他们体内的许多系统，氧化应激机制，对他们的线粒体造成了损害，我们不知道为什么，但也许线粒体中受损最多的区域与β-氧化和脂肪酸有关。
So you'll talk to people who have been infected with COVID and they said, "We gained weight after we were infected with COVID and have all these symptoms." First of all, when someone comes to you like that as a physician, you have to make sure that you're ruling out all of the obvious things.
所以你会和感染了新冠病毒的人交谈，他们说：“我们感染新冠病毒后体重增加了，并出现了所有这些症状。”首先，当有人以医生的身份来找你时，你必须确保排除所有明显的事情。
So I'm getting an echocardiogram to make sure they didn't have some sort of cardiac issue.
所以我要做超声心动图，以确保他们没有某种心脏问题。
I'm getting pulmonary function tests to make sure they didn't get scarring in their lungs and to have restrictive lung disease.
我正在接受肺功能检查，以确保他们的肺部没有留下疤痕，也没有患有限制性肺部疾病。
So I'm ruling out all of these things.
所以我排除所有这些事情。
And so about a month or two later, I've got all these tests back and I'm going over it, and for the ones where everything is negative, because there were some where I actually discovered they had blood clots and we had to treat them for that.
大约一两个月后，我收到了所有这些测试，我正在对其进行检查，对于那些一切都是阴性的测试，因为有些地方我实际上发现他们有血栓，我们必须为此治疗他们。
But for people who have everything negative and they still complain-- I remember one gentleman in particular.
但对于那些一切都消极却仍然抱怨的人来说——我特别记得一位绅士。
He had eight out of 10 shortness of breath, and he couldn't sleep very well, and this had been going on for over a year, and we ruled out pulmonary embolism, we ruled out congestive heart failure, we ruled out interstitial lung disease with all of the tests.
他有十分之八的呼吸急促，而且他睡得不好，这种情况已经持续了一年多，我们通过所有检查排除了肺栓塞，我们排除了充血性心力衰竭，我们排除了间质性肺疾病。
And it was about this time that I was coming onto this idea about light and looking at these studies about the mitochondria, and I had this idea because there was nothing else left.
大约在这个时候，我开始有了关于光的想法，并查看了有关线粒体的这些研究，我有了这个想法，因为没有其他的了。
I had this idea that if there was some way we could regenerate the mitochondria, but instead of it being damaged, because when you have damaged mitochondria, that creates just more oxidative stress and damages it even more.
我有这样的想法，如果有某种方法我们可以再生线粒体，但它不会被损坏，因为当你损坏线粒体时，只会产生更多的氧化应激并对其造成更大的损害。
So in other words, we have to basically get his body into a situation where he was generating new mitochondria so we could get rid of these issues with metabolism.
换句话说，我们必须基本上让他的身体进入一种产生新线粒体的状态，这样我们就可以摆脱新陈代谢的这些问题。
So I had this idea, and I don't know if it worked this way, but I actually got him to do intermittent fasting, and this whole idea about how intermittent fasting allows the body to generate things at night.
所以我有了这个想法，我不知道这样是否有效，但我实际上让他进行间歇性禁食，以及间歇性禁食如何让身体在晚上产生东西的整个想法。
Because you're now The body knows what it needs to down-regulate and break up.
因为你现在的身体知道它需要下调和分解什么。
You just have to give it the opportunity.
你只需要给它机会。
This is how I understood it.
我是这样理解的。
The innate immune system, looking at pathological molecular patterns, and also damaged molecular patterns, so PAMPs and DAMPs, D-A-M-P.
先天免疫系统，着眼于病理性分子模式，并且还破坏分子模式，因此 PAMP 和 DAMP，D-A-M-P。
If we were to allow the immune system to do what it needs to do, it would find these areas that are not working well, tear them down, destroy those cells, and then allow regeneration of new cells with hopefully brand-new virgin mitochondria.
如果我们让免疫系统做它需要做的事情，它就会发现这些工作不正常的区域，将它们撕下来，破坏这些细胞，然后允许新细胞再生，并有望带来全新的原始线粒体。
So that was the first thing I did.
这就是我做的第一件事。
He vowed that he would never eat after 5:30, after I explained all this to him.
在我向他解释了这一切之后，他发誓5点30分之后他再也不吃饭了。
I took a clinic visit, and we explained all of this.
我去了诊所，我们解释了这一切。
The other thing I did was told him to get out in the sun.
我做的另一件事是告诉他出去晒太阳。
Now, this may sound dismissive.
现在，这听起来可能不屑一顾。
Can you imagine you've got long COVID, you've been suffering, and you go to a physician, and they tell you, "Well, I want you to stop eating after 5:30.
你能想象你已经感染了很长时间的新冠病毒吗？你一直在忍受痛苦，然后你去看医生，他们告诉你：“好吧，我希望你在 5:30 之后停止进食。
I want you to get outside more." Like, "Is he taking me seriously?
我希望你多出去走走。”就像，“他认真对待我吗？
Does he really believe that I have a condition?" But I took the time to explain why I was thinking about these things and going through the studies.
他真的相信我有条件吗？”但我花时间解释了为什么我正在思考这些事情并进行研究。
So he did it.
所以他做到了。
And I saw him back a month later.
一个月后我又见到他回来了。
He was amazed.
他很惊讶。
I was amazed.
我很惊讶。
He said that his gastroesophageal reflux disease completely went away after he stopped eating after 5:30.
他说，5点30分左右停止进食后，他的胃食管反流病就完全消失了。
His shortness of breath went from an eight out of 10 to a three out of 10.
他的呼吸急促从十分之八变为十分之三。
And he said it doesn't even bother him anymore.
他说这不再困扰他了。
This is after a year of having this type of symptoms.
这是出现此类症状一年后的情况。
So that really took me by pause.
所以这真的让我停顿了一下。
Now, I'll tell you the first thing, that that doesn't happen to all of my patients with long COVID, but it tells me that when you're dealing with long COVID, you're dealing with people who have had an infection that has caused damage to the system.
现在，我要告诉你第一件事，并不是所有长期感染新冠病毒的患者都会发生这种情况，但它告诉我，当你面对长期感染新冠病毒的人时，你面对的是那些已经感染并导致系统受损的人。
And some of the studies, from what I've reviewed, sometimes people have residual virus still in the system.
从我回顾的一些研究来看，有时人们的系统中仍然残留着病毒。
There was a study that was done looking at to see whether vaccination of COVID-19 would work after patients with long COVID.
有一项研究旨在观察长期感染新冠病毒的患者接种新冠病毒 (COVID-19) 疫苗是否有效。
There was some benefit.
有一些好处。
It wasn't big, but it was some.
虽然不大，但也有一些了。
And it may be that you're just stimulating the immune system again to fight off this remaining virus that's still in the system.
也许你只是再次刺激免疫系统来抵抗系统中残留的病毒。
But we have data that shows that the type of inflammation that we get with spike protein, it's actually a toll-like receptor four type of inflammation.
但我们有数据表明，我们用刺突蛋白得到的炎症类型，实际上是一种 Toll 样受体的四种炎症类型。
There's a study that looked at this.
有一项研究对此进行了研究。
And they were actually able to show and demonstrate that infrared light, coming back to that again, can actually mitigate the inflammation from toll-like receptor-mediated inflammation, which is exactly the inflammation mediated in COVID-19.
他们实际上能够展示并证明红外光实际上可以减轻 Toll 样受体介导的炎症，这正是 COVID-19 中介导的炎症。
So short answer to your question, or that's a long answer, but the short answer is yes, I do believe that long COVID is something, and I believe people are suffering with it.
对你的问题的简短回答，或者这是一个很长的答案，但简短的答案是肯定的，我确实相信长期的新冠病毒是一种东西，我相信人们正在遭受它的痛苦。
It's a very heterogeneous disease, and it's hard to just pin one thing on everything and have it work for everything.
这是一种异质性非常强的疾病，很难将一种方法应用于所有疾病并使其适用于所有疾病。
That being said, I don't see a lot of downside in instituting some of these things that we think may work, sunlight as being one of those things.
话虽这么说，我认为建立一些我们认为可能有效的东西并没有太多的缺点，阳光就是其中之一。
People who are sick with COVID and long COVID tend to be sick, and they stay indoors, and so there may be an exacerbation of the process.
患有新冠病毒和长期感染新冠病毒的人往往会生病，并且他们呆在室内，因此病情可能会恶化。
So the last thing they want to do is to get outside, but it may actually be beneficial.
所以他们最不想做的就是出去，但这实际上可能是有益的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I would imagine that pretty much everything that you've shared with us today would be beneficial.
是的，我想您今天与我们分享的几乎所有内容都会有益。
My understanding is that some of the heterogeneity of even just the COVID response in various people who got it, in addition to the heterogeneity in long COVID symptoms, could be due to the fact that the distribution of ACE2 receptors is very widespread in the body.
我的理解是，除了长期的新冠症状的异质性之外，即使只是不同感染者的新冠反应也存在一些异质性，这可能是由于 ACE2 受体在体内的分布非常广泛。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
SARS-CoV-2 binds to the ACE2 receptor.
SARS-CoV-2 与 ACE2 受体结合。
It's a primary receptor site-
这是一个主要受体位点-
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as I understand.
据我了解。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I remember early in the pandemic asking on social media, "Are there ACE2 receptors in the brain and on neurons?" And people were like, "No, there's no ACE2 receptor." It turns out the olfactory-
我记得在大流行初期，我在社交媒体上提问：“大脑和神经元上有 ACE2 受体吗？”人们的反应是，“不，没有 ACE2 受体。”原来嗅觉——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the olfactory neurons are chock-a-block full of-
嗅觉神经元充满了——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
ACE2 receptor.
ACE2受体。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they are bona fide CNS neurons.
它们是真正的中枢神经系统神经元。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're brain neurons.
它们是大脑神经元。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you lose them.
然后你就会失去它们。
Fortunately, those can replenish-
幸运的是，这些可以补充——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
over time in an activity-dependent way.
随着时间的推移，以依赖于活动的方式。
But yeah, when I hear that some people got COVID and it was no big deal, other people got COVID and they felt like they had brain fog for six months and are still coping with it, probably has to do with the extent to which the virus was able to bind to ACE2 receptors in one person's brain versus someone else.
但是，是的，当我听说有些人感染了新冠病毒，这没什么大不了的，而另一些人感染了新冠病毒，他们感觉自己的脑雾已经持续了六个月，但仍在应对，这可能与病毒与一个人大脑中的 ACE2 受体结合的程度有关。
Maybe their blood-brain barrier, it didn't get in there at all.
也许是他们的血脑屏障，它根本没有进入那里。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Right.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
As I recall, and this is actually kind of interesting about olfactory, is that the nerve cells that are next to those neurons in the olfactory are the ones that have a lot of ACE2 receptors.
我记得，嗅觉的一个有趣之处是，嗅觉神经元旁边的神经细胞拥有大量 ACE2 受体。
And so what happened is these nerve supporting cells that were helping with whatever they do to support the neurons were dying off, and that's why they were losing a sense of smell.
所以发生的事情是，这些神经支持细胞正在死亡，这就是它们失去嗅觉的原因。
And so when the nerve cells came back and replenished, people didn't smell exactly the same because it didn't come back in the same way.
因此，当神经细胞回来并补充时，人们闻起来并不完全相同，因为它没有以同样的方式回来。
And this has been used for years in ear, nose, and throat circles, is something, this sounds kind of silly, but smelling sticks.
这已经在耳鼻喉领域使用了多年，这听起来有点傻，但闻起来很粘。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
There's actually a protocol that is used, that these markers that are manufactured in Europe, where they have a different-
实际上有一个使用的协议，这些标记是在欧洲制造的，在那里它们有不同的-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, orange-
是啊，橙色——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
lemon, chocolate.
柠檬，巧克力。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
And smelling these things actually over-- There was a randomized crossover placebo-controlled trial that actually showed that they were able to regain their sense of smell by training their sense of smell with these sticks.
闻这些东西实际上结束了——有一项随机交叉安慰剂对照试验实际上表明，他们能够通过用这些棍子训练他们的嗅觉来重新获得嗅觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It makes sense because the olfactory neurons are replenished, not just regenerate, but they turn over in an activity-dependent way.
这是有道理的，因为嗅觉神经元得到了补充，不仅仅是再生，而且它们以一种依赖于活动的方式更新。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so it requires electrical activity, and their electrical activity is dictated by smell.
因此它需要电活动，而它们的电活动是由气味决定的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Smell.
闻。
Got it.
知道了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so certain clusters of olfactory neurons and the brain neurons that they connect to, or reconnect to in this case, are going to be activated by different smells.
因此，某些嗅觉神经元簇和它们连接的或在这种情况下重新连接的大脑神经元将被不同的气味激活。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so the smell training-based protocols for bringing your sense of smell back intentionally includes a variety of smells.
因此，基于气味训练的方案旨在有意恢复嗅觉，其中包括多种气味。
You don't just want to smell lemon, you want to smell lemon, coffee, this.
你不只是想闻柠檬的味道，你还想闻柠檬、咖啡等等的味道。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People always say, "Do I need foul smells, too?" In an unfortunate way, the neurons that detect noxious odors and bad odors tend to not die off as readily.
人们总是说：“我也需要臭味吗？”不幸的是，检测有毒气味和难闻气味的神经元往往不会轻易死亡。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Oh, I see.
哦，我明白了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it makes sense, because those are the cells that actually preserve your innate aversion reflex.
但这是有道理的，因为这些细胞实际上保留了你与生俱来的厌恶反射。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Our ability to detect smoke in the air, something very relevant to the recent history here in LA, or ammonia, things that are potentially hazardous for us, the detection thresholds are incredibly low.
我们检测空气中的烟雾（与洛杉矶最近的历史非常相关）或氨（对我们有潜在危险的物质）的能力，检测阈值非常低。
We're just so sensitive.
我们只是太敏感了。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
This is the fifth cranial nerve, isn't it, that does that?
这是第五脑神经，不是吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, yeah.
嗯，是的。
So the trigeminal, it's involved in some of the protection of the nasal epithelium and the eye and whatnot.
所以三叉神经参与了对鼻上皮和眼睛等的一些保护。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But this is a direct line through the olfactory pathway to the amygdala.
但这是一条通过嗅觉通路到达杏仁核的直接线路。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A fairly direct line.
一条相当直接的线。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
It bypasses the thalamus.
它绕过丘脑。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
All of olfaction bypasses the thalamus, but the learning of odors is-- Your odor maps are going to be slightly different than mine based on your experience.
所有嗅觉都会绕过丘脑，但气味的学习是——根据您的经验，您的气味图将与我的略有不同。
But when it comes to the representation of smoke, vomit, feces- ...
但当谈到烟雾、呕吐物、粪便的表现时——......
and rotting bodies, all the dangerous stuff-
还有腐烂的尸体，所有危险的东西——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
our pathways look pretty similar.
我们的途径看起来非常相似。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Got it.
明白了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it, to be blunt.
明白了，直言不讳。
Given your expertise in lungs and-
鉴于您在肺部方面的专业知识以及-
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a number of people I know have mold issues.
我认识的很多人都有霉菌问题。
They claim or they believe that-
他们声称或者他们相信——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
mold has infiltrated their lungs.
霉菌已经侵入他们的肺部。
Some doctors tell them they're crazy.
一些医生告诉他们，他们疯了。
Some doctors tell them that they're not crazy about that idea.
一些医生告诉他们，他们并不热衷于这个想法。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is mold toxicity a real thing?
霉菌毒性是真的吗？
Can it be treated?
可以治疗吗？
Maybe we do an entire episode about this another time, but-
也许我们下次再做一整集，但是-
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is it a real thing, and what is the primary treatment for mold toxicity?
这是真的吗？霉菌毒性的主要治疗方法是什么？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
It is a real thing.
这是真实的事情。
And mold is a substance that can have multiple different effects on the body.
霉菌是一种可以对身体产生多种不同影响的物质。
Let me give you an example.
让我举个例子。
There's a fungus called Aspergillus.
有一种真菌叫做曲霉菌。
And there's two ways that Aspergillus can affect the human body.
曲霉菌可以通过两种方式影响人体。
One is if it just sets up shop in your lungs and doesn't invade, you could become allergic to it, and so the symptoms are allergic.
一是如果它只是在你的肺部停留而不侵入，你可能会对它过敏，所以症状就是过敏。
Actually, there's a condition called allergic bronchopulmonary aspergillosis.
事实上，有一种疾病叫做过敏性支气管肺曲霉病。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's kind of like an autoimmune-
所以这有点像自身免疫——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Exactly
正是如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
situation.
情况。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
And so you have symptoms of asthma, you have symptoms of inability to breathe.
所以你有哮喘的症状，你有无法呼吸的症状。
And the primary treatment, ironically, there is steroids, because you need to reduce the inflammation, but also antifungals to get rid of the thing that's inside you in the first place.
讽刺的是，主要的治疗方法是使用类固醇，因为你需要减少炎症，但也需要抗真菌药物来清除你体内的东西。
That's as opposed to invasive aspergillosis.
这与侵袭性曲霉病相反。
That's where the fungus comes in and starts to invade and create a cavitary lesion, usually with a fungus ball sitting in the middle of it.
这就是真菌进入并开始侵入并产生空洞病变的地方，通常中间有一个真菌球。
Oh yeah, it's pretty bad.
哦，是的，这很糟糕。
Sometimes it's so bad that you actually have to do surgery to cut out that thing because you can't cure it.
有时情况太糟糕了，你实际上必须做手术来切除那个东西，因为你无法治愈它。
The way that this often happens is mold and fungus are in the air all the time.
这种情况经常发生的原因是霉菌和真菌一直存在于空气中。
So here's this understanding of there's germ theory and there is terrain theory.
这就是对细菌理论和地形理论的理解。
And today, and I almost hate to even get into it, but people think it's one or the other.
今天，我几乎不想涉足其中，但人们认为这是其中之一。
And I can tell you as a physician, it's both.
作为一名医生，我可以告诉你，两者兼而有之。
There are certain diseases, it doesn't matter what your terrain is, like Neisseria meningitidis, if you get that, it's going to cause a bad meningitis, no matter how healthy you are, okay?
有些疾病，无论你所在的地形如何，比如脑膜炎奈瑟菌，如果你感染了它，无论你多么健康，它都会导致严重的脑膜炎，好吗？
I remember reading about a young Japanese star, I think, or Taiwanese star, just recently here that died of influenza.
我记得读到过一位年轻的日本明星，我想，或者台湾明星，最近刚刚在这里死于流感。
Forty-eight years old, no medical problems.
四十八岁，无健康问题。
So it's possible, no matter how good your terrain is, you could get a bad bug, a bad germ, and it could kill you.
所以，无论你的地形有多好，你都有可能感染坏虫子、坏细菌，它可能会杀死你。
On the other hand, there are certain bugs that are just sitting out there, and they will go in, and your immune system will just kick it out like it's nothing.
另一方面，有些细菌就在那里，它们会进去，你的免疫系统就会把它踢出去，就像它什么都没有一样。
Why?
为什么？
Because your terrain is good.
因为你的地形好。
So I can talk about different types of infections that could do that.
所以我可以谈谈可以做到这一点的不同类型的感染。
So that's where we are with molds.
这就是我们模具的现状。
So typically, you're breathing in all sorts of mold and fungus spores all the time, but if your immune system is good, it'll just kick it out, and it won't have a chance to survive.
因此，通常情况下，您一直吸入各种霉菌和真菌孢子，但如果您的免疫系统良好，它就会将其踢出，并且没有生存的机会。
Where you have a problem is if you have a situation where your immune system is compromised.
如果您的免疫系统受到损害，就会出现问题。
To give you an example of that practically, there are some biological medications that people get when they have rheumatoid arthritis.
举个实际的例子，人们在患有类风湿性关节炎时会服用一些生物药物。
If we get to that point where you have rheumatoid arthritis so bad that we have to put you on a biologic, that means there's an antibody there that's suppressing the immune system so that you don't have the symptoms of rheumatoid arthritis.
如果您的类风湿性关节炎非常严重，以至于我们必须让您服用生物制剂，那就意味着那里有一种抗体可以抑制免疫系统，这样您就不会出现类风湿性关节炎的症状。
That's actually suppressing your immune system.
这实际上是在抑制你的免疫系统。
In those patients, we'll always check them for tuberculosis because certain people walking in the population will have an inactivated tuberculosis.
在这些患者中，我们总是会检查他们是否患有结核病，因为人群中的某些人会患有灭活结核病。
They're infected, but their immune system has walled it off.
他们被感染了，但他们的免疫系统已经将其隔离开来。
Then we put them on a biologic, and the tuberculosis pops up.
然后我们给他们服用生物制剂，结核病就会出现。
So all of that to say that, yes, it is possible if you have mold in your house versus if you don't have mold in your house, that just increases the burden of mold that you're inhaling, and to the degree that it's going to match against your immune system, that could depend on whether or not it jumps in and actually causes a problem.
所以所有这些都表明，是的，如果你的房子里有霉菌，与你的房子里没有霉菌相比，这可能只会增加你吸入的霉菌负担，并且在某种程度上它会与你的免疫系统相匹配，这可能取决于它是否会跳入并真正引起问题。
So this is the time of year where we're coming up to the Super Bowl.
一年中的这个时候我们即将迎来超级碗比赛。
So it's the question about terrain theory versus germ theory.
所以这是关于地形理论与细菌理论的问题。
And the question is this, whoever wins the Super Bowl, did they win the Super Bowl, or did the other two lose the Super Bowl?
而问题是，无论谁赢得了超级碗，是他们赢得了超级碗，还是另外两人输了超级碗？
Who knows?
谁知道？
So this is where this thing, it's not or, it's and.
所以这就是这个东西，它不是或，它是和。
And really what determines whether or not you get infected is how good is your immune system and how virulent is the burden of pathogen that's going in.
真正决定你是否被感染的是你的免疫系统有多好，以及进入的病原体的毒性有多大。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The reason I asked is it a real thing is that people that I know who believe they have a mold infection or they did, do seem to have symptoms that last a long time.
我之所以问这是真的，是因为我认识的人相信自己感染了霉菌，或者确实感染了霉菌，但他们似乎确实有持续很长时间的症状。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There doesn't seem to be any general agreement about what specific treatment to use for this, unless maybe they need surgery or something.
对于使用什么具体治疗方法似乎没有达成任何普遍共识，除非他们可能需要手术或其他什么。
So do you give people antifungals?
那么你会给人们服用抗真菌药物吗？
Is there anything over the counter that can help?
柜台上有什么可以帮忙的吗？
Will the sauna protocols and steam protocols we were talking about earlier help?
我们之前讨论的桑拿方案和蒸汽方案会有帮助吗？
I would imagine a lot of warm, moist air is exactly what fungus loves.
我想大量温暖、潮湿的空气正是真菌所喜欢的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes, it does.
是的，确实如此。
If someone came to me with a mold complaint or thinking they had mold, there are a number of tests that you can do to see whether or not there's antibodies to those things, and you can see whether or not that may or may not be there.
如果有人向我提出霉菌投诉或认为自己患有霉菌，您可以进行许多测试来查看是否存在针对这些物质的抗体，并且您可以了解是否存在这种抗体。
It's not definitive.
这不是确定的。
But if somebody actually truly has mold growing in their lungs, we should be able to see that on a CAT scan.
但如果某人的肺部确实有霉菌生长，我们应该能够在 CAT 扫描中看到这一点。
We should be able to identify it.
我们应该能够识别它。
We should be able to go and biopsy it.
我们应该能够去进行活检。
We should be able to go and collect it.
我们应该能够去收集它。
And if that's exactly what grows out on the culture after we take a biopsy or a culture, then we can tailor antifungals for that particular thing.
如果这正是我们进行活检或培养后在培养物上生长的东西，那么我们就可以针对该特定物质定制抗真菌药物。
In the sense, though, that someone may be having symptoms of some sort of infection or something and there's nothing on the CAT scan, it's harder to really isolate exactly which one it would be and what would be the right treatment.
不过，从某种意义上说，如果某人可能出现某种感染或其他症状，而 CAT 扫描却没有任何结果，那么很难真正确定到底是哪一种感染，以及什么是正确的治疗方法。
Although, there are some syndromes known as RADs or reactive airways disease, where you can have an exposure to something that's so egregious that even though you don't get exposed to that thing again, it can still cause persistent difficulty with breathing.
不过，有一些称为 RAD 或反应性气道疾病的综合症，您可能会接触到某种非常严重的物质，即使您不再接触到这种物质，它仍然会导致持续的呼吸困难。
It's very similar, by the way, to asthma.
顺便说一下，它与哮喘非常相似。
So for instance, let's say someone's working in a vat and there's a chemical that's spilled, and they get an incredible amount of inhalation of that chemical.
举例来说，假设有人在一个大桶中工作，有一种化学物质溢出，他们吸入了大量的化学物质。
It's well known that these people can go on and have these types of problems, even though their lungs may image correctly and they may never be exposed to that chemical again.
众所周知，这些人可能会继续出现这些类型的问题，即使他们的肺部成像可能正确并且他们可能永远不会再接触到这种化学物质。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's talk about the T in NEWSTART.
我们来谈谈NEWSTART中的T。
Trust.
相信。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You talked about higher power.
你谈到了更高的权力。
You talked about community.
你谈到了社区。
You talked about connection generally and specifically.
您概括地和具体地谈到了联系。
I've always been struck by how the belief system can impact our physical health.
我一直对信仰体系如何影响我们的身体健康感到震惊。
We recently had Dr. Ellen Langer on the podcast from Harvard, who's done incredible studies really about how beliefs can shape our physical health in any number of different ways.
最近，我们邀请了哈佛大学的艾伦·兰格博士做播客，她做了令人难以置信的研究，研究了信念如何以多种不同的方式塑造我们的身体健康。
What is your clinical observation of people who are ill, severely ill, mildly ill, and the role that trust in fill in the blank-
您对病人、重病、轻病的临床观察是什么，以及信任的角色填空-
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you can fill in the blank, has in terms of the severity of their symptoms and the rate at which they recover and hopefully they do recover?
您可以填写空白，了解他们症状的严重程度以及他们康复的速度，希望他们能够康复吗？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes, they do.
是的，他们确实这么做了。
Some of the times.
有些时候。
Sometimes they don't, and we can't help that, but we do the best that we can.
有时他们不这样做，我们也无能为力，但我们会尽力而为。
No, it does help quite a bit.
不，它确实有很大帮助。
So people who have a network, people that have faith, people that have community, have that strength that allows them to get through those very difficult times.
因此，拥有网络的人、拥有信仰的人、拥有社区的人，拥有让他们度过那些非常困难的时期的力量。
There's been a number of studies that have looked at this.
有许多研究对此进行了研究。
You'd think that this area is kind of nebulous and hard to study.
你可能会认为这个领域有点模糊且难以研究。
No, there's actually some pretty good data on this.
不，实际上有一些关于这方面的很好的数据。
And I think back to a number of studies that have been done and where they looked at thankfulness and the mind-body connection.
我回想起已经进行的一些研究，以及他们研究感恩和身心联系的研究。
People who are more thankful have less somatic complaints, for instance, than those that are not.
例如，那些更感恩的人比那些不感恩的人有更少的躯体抱怨。
So they actually did an experiment where they had people write out letters.
所以他们实际上做了一个实验，让人们写信。
They had thought about some mentors in their past, and they wrote out letters to thank them.
他们想起了过去的一些导师，并写信感谢他们。
And it was interesting because not all of the people that wrote the letters were able to actually deliver those letters to those recipients, but it didn't matter.
这很有趣，因为并非所有写信的人都能真正将这些信件递送给收件人，但这并不重要。
What they found in the study was just simply the thought of writing out those letters actually had a change in the endpoints in those studies.
他们在研究中发现，只是简单地写出这些字母的想法实际上改变了这些研究的终点。
There was another study that was done that was very telling to me.
另一项研究对我来说非常有启发。
It was a survey that was done of 1,500 people.
这是一项针对 1,500 人的调查。
It was published out of Texas.
它是在德克萨斯州出版的。
In this particular case, they wanted to limit the population of the recipients.
在这种特殊情况下，他们希望限制接收者的人数。
So these were just Christians in this case, just because of the heterogeneity.
因此，在这种情况下，这些人只是基督徒，只是因为异质性。
They wanted to see if they can get an endpoint.
他们想看看是否能到达终点。
And what they did was they asked people in this survey, "How do you forgive?" Forgiveness has to do a little bit about faith and trust as well.
他们所做的是在这项调查中询问人们“你如何宽恕？”宽恕也必须对信仰和信任有所影响。
And there was basically two major types of forgiveness.
宽恕基本上有两种主要类型。
There was forgiveness that was conditional, and there was forgiveness that was unconditional.
宽恕有有条件的，也有无条件的宽恕。
And what I mean by that is that people that would forgive conditionally would be if someone did something to somebody, they might forgive them if they came back and apologized, or they showed some sort of remorse.
我的意思是，有条件原谅的人是，如果某人对某人做了什么，如果他们回来道歉，或者表现出某种悔恨，他们可能会原谅他们。
Those were the people that forgave conditionally.
这些人是有条件宽恕的人。
The other people who forgave unconditionally were the ones that would just forgive regardless of what that other person would do.
其他无条件宽恕的人是那些无论对方会做什么都会宽恕的人。
They would just forgive them, and it would be off their mind, and they would just go on their way.
他们只会原谅他们，然后他们就不会再想这件事了，然后继续他们的路。
What they found was really interesting between those two populations.
他们发现这两个人群之间的情况非常有趣。
Now, this was an associative study, but they found that when they looked at anxiety at the end of life in terms of anxiety, in terms of dying, well-being, somatosensory complaints, all sorts of-- A whole list of different things.
现在，这是一项联想研究，但他们发现，当他们从焦虑、死亡、幸福感、体感抱怨等各种角度来看待临终时的焦虑时——一整套不同的事情。
They found that people who forgave conditionally, the ones that would wait for someone to come back to them, had higher marks in those cases.
他们发现，那些有条件宽恕的人，那些愿意等待别人回到自己身边的人，在这些情况下得分更高。
In other words, they had more anxiety.
换句话说，他们有更多的焦虑。
They had more somato complaints.
他们有更多的躯体症状。
They were less feeling of well-being.
他们的幸福感较差。
And so they found that that was really interesting.
所以他们发现这真的很有趣。
Well, they didn't stop there.
好吧，他们并没有就此止步。
They wanted to figure out what was going on.
他们想弄清楚到底发生了什么事。
And they asked the question, "Okay, well, what is the biggest determinant that determines whether or not somebody forgives conditionally versus unconditionally?" And I think the odds ratio on this statement was a two or a three, which is getting up there.
他们问了一个问题：“好吧，决定某人是否有条件宽恕和无条件宽恕的最大决定因素是什么？”我认为这个声明的优势比是二或三，这个比例正在上升。
It's almost you could say that the likelihood ratios are high enough to say causation, but not quite, but it was high.
几乎你可以说似然比足够高，足以说明因果关系，但不完全是，但它很高。
And it came down to this statement And the statement was, "Do you feel like you have been forgiven by God?" If they felt like they were forgiven by God, they were much more likely to forgive unconditionally.
归结为这句话 这句话是，“你觉得你已经被上帝宽恕了吗？”如果他们觉得自己被上帝宽恕了，他们就更有可能无条件地宽恕。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If they had ever felt that they were forgiven by God.
如果他们曾经感到自己被上帝宽恕了。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
If they feel like they were forgiven by God, yes, for whatever it was that they had done.
如果他们觉得自己被上帝宽恕了，是的，无论他们做了什么。
So this was really interesting to me because oftentimes I will have patients in my intensive care unit who are very anxious.
所以这对我来说真的很有趣，因为我的重症监护室里经常会有非常焦虑的患者。
Anybody who gets admitted to the hospital starts to think about the mortality.
任何入院的人都会开始考虑死亡率。
Just imagine if you get admitted to the intensive care unit.
想象一下，如果你住进重症监护室。
A lot of my patients are not able to communicate.
我的很多病人都无法沟通。
They're mentally out, but there are a few that can, and those you can tell become very anxious.
他们精神错乱，但也有一些人可以，而且你可以看出，有些人变得非常焦虑。
So this is an area that I have to sort of delicately ask about because you don't know people's faith structure.
所以这是我必须谨慎询问的一个领域，因为你不知道人们的信仰结构。
You don't know who they are.
你不知道他们是谁。
I'm a graduate of Loma Linda University, and our motto, and it's a Christian institution, is to make man whole.
我是罗马琳达大学的毕业生，我们的座右铭（这是一所基督教机构）是让人类变得完整。
And part of that is not just the physical, not just the mental, but also the spiritual aspect of that.
其中一部分不仅仅是身体方面，不仅仅是精神方面，还有精神方面。
So we make no excuses about that.
所以我们对此没有任何借口。
But it's important to also understand that not everybody wants to have a spiritual component to their care.
但重要的是要明白，并不是每个人都希望自己的护理有精神成分。
So you have to approach it in a way that you're almost, "Do you give me permission to do this?" And you have to watch for things.
所以你必须以一种几乎是“你允许我这样做吗？”的方式来处理它。你必须注意一些事情。
It's not an easy thing to do, but you want to help if someone wants to be helped.
这不是一件容易的事，但如果有人需要帮助，你就想提供帮助。
So oftentimes I will talk to them about this very issue, and I will say, "Is there something on your mind that you need to get off your chest?" You would be surprised about how many times people have this issue.
很多时候我会和他们谈论这个问题，我会说，“你心里有什么事情需要说出来吗？”您会对人们遇到此问题的次数感到惊讶。
It's because they've done something to somebody in their past, and they don't feel like they're forgiven.
这是因为他们过去对某人做了一些事情，而他们觉得自己没有被原谅。
And if you have the opportunity to do that, to actually give them that ability in their belief structure, to tell them that they are forgiven, there's a world of difference.
如果你有机会这样做，在他们的信仰结构中真正赋予他们这种能力，告诉他们他们被宽恕了，那就有一个不同的世界了。
And actually, it's quite amazing.
事实上，这非常惊人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's interesting to me that in all hospitals, not just hospitals with an affiliation to a particular branch of religion, you have chaplains.
对我来说有趣的是，在所有医院，不仅仅是附属于某一特定宗教分支的医院，都有牧师。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You have different people associated often with different religions that people can call upon, which I find amazing, right in this "modern time" of modern medicine.
不同的人经常与不同的宗教联系在一起，人们可以求助于这些宗教，我觉得这很神奇，就在现代医学的“现代时代”。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As far as I know, every major hospital has this.
据我所知各大医院都有这个。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It doesn't matter how cutting edge or how small a community hospital, which by the way, many community hospitals are excellent.
不管社区医院有多先进或多小，顺便说一句，许多社区医院都是优秀的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I should point that out.
我应该指出这一点。
The words community hospital juxtaposed to cutting-edge research institution.
社区医院这个词与尖端研究机构并列。
There's actually a debate as to which one you would prefer to go to-
事实上，关于你更愿意去哪一个，存在着一场争论——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
depending on your needs.
根据您的需求。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They all, generally, as far as I know, have access to people with whom patients and family of patients and friends of patients can pray, and-
据我所知，一般来说，他们都可以接触到患者、患者家属和患者朋友可以一起祈祷的人，并且——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that's not a coincidence.
这并非巧合。
I think that there's a deep understanding of some sort of relationship there, and certainly there's good science to support everything you just said.
我认为人们对其中的某种关系有着深刻的理解，当然也有很好的科学来支持你刚才所说的一切。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And your clinical experience, in my mind, goes along with that.
在我看来，你的临床经验也是如此。
Science, as you said, is very reductionist, right?
正如你所说，科学是非常还原论的，对吗？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Put people in two groups.
将人们分成两组。
One prays, one doesn't.
一个人祈祷，一个人不祈祷。
That's the way science is done.
这就是科学的运作方式。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Of course.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But ultimately, the real-world clinical implications are what really resonate.
但最终，真正引起共鸣的是现实世界的临床意义。
So thank you.
所以谢谢你。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for that.
谢谢你。
I have one final question.
我还有最后一个问题。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it might get you in trouble.
这可能会给你带来麻烦。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I'm going to ask anyway.
但我还是要问一下。
Let's say I or someone that I care about is admitted to the hospital.
假设我或我关心的人住院了。
What are the things to do or ask that we're not told that can facilitate better care that are within bounds?
有哪些我们没有被告知要做或要求的事情可以在范围内促进更好的护理？
Now, I will go on record since these days I'm in the habit of just saying it all.
现在，我将记录下来，因为这些天我已经习惯了把一切都说出来。
I'm aware that families of donors to hospitals get special care.
我知道医院捐献者的家属会得到特殊照顾。
I will just tell you, you go to a hospital, there's a code language.
我就告诉你，你去医院，那里有密码语言。
I happen to know it for several hospitals.
我碰巧知道有几家医院。
There's a code language of this is a "special patient." This will anger some listeners, but it's true.
有一种暗语称这是“特殊病人”。这会激怒一些听众，但这是事实。
This is the way the world works.
这就是世界运转的方式。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Not only some listeners, but some physicians as well.
不仅有一些听众，还有一些医生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some physicians, too, right?
也有一些医生，对吗？
So there's a code language that differs by hospital, and I know it for several hospitals.
所以每个医院都有不同的代码语言，我知道几家医院都有这种代码语言。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I don't want to get into that.
我不想谈这个。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's one of the more complicated aspects of medicine and hospitals as businesses and things like that.
这是医学和医院作为企业和类似事物的更复杂的方面之一。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm going to get some angry calls about this.
我会接到一些关于此事的愤怒电话。
Now, the point of asking this is that most people are not donors to hospitals.
现在，问这个问题的重点是大多数人都不是医院的捐赠者。
They're not going to be flagged as a special patient that gets the room with the window, that gets sunlight in the morning, that gets the room alone without somebody next to them who's coughing all night.
他们不会被标记为一个特殊的病人，住在有窗户的房间里，早上有阳光，住在单独的房间里，旁边没有一个整夜咳嗽的人。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And on and on.
不断地。
So are there specific things that people should mention or ask for in order to get the best possible care when admitted to a hospital?
那么，为了在入院时获得最好的护理，人们应该提及或要求哪些具体事项呢？
Sorry, I got to put you on the spot.
抱歉，我得让你陷入困境。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
No, this is excellent.
不，这太棒了。
This is an excellent question.
这是一个很好的问题。
Some of the things you can control, some of the things you can't control.
有些事情你可以控制，有些事情你无法控制。
Getting a bed is just completely out of your control.
获得一张床完全超出你的控制范围。
So if you're in the emergency room, you can ask when you're going to go upstairs.
因此，如果您在急诊室，您可以询问您何时上楼。
You're going to get a bed when there's going to be a bed, and sometimes I can't even get patients upstairs, so.
有床位的时候就得有床位，有时我什至无法让病人上楼，所以。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they're triaging, right?
他们正在分类，对吗？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
They're triaging.
他们正在分类。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're saying, "This person's at risk of dying."
他们说：“这个人有死亡的危险。”
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This person is miserable.
这个人很惨。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you're less miserable.
而你也不再那么痛苦了。
You're going to wait.
你要等。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that how it works?
是这样的吗？
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Potentially.
有潜力。
I think in terms of where you are in the hospital and the care that you're going to get, I believe that the number one thing that you can do to make sure that you're getting the appropriate care is to, in as many ways as possible, communicate to the physician, usually not directly, that you are familiar with the disease that the patient is being admitted for, and you're going to ask some tough questions.
我认为，就您在医院的位置以及您将获得的护理而言，我认为，为了确保您获得适当的护理，您可以做的第一件事就是以尽可能多的方式（通常不是直接）与医生沟通，您熟悉患者入院的疾病，并且您将提出一些棘手的问题。
Yelling at the nurse is not going to help you.
对护士大喊大叫对你没有帮助。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Saying insulting things to the nurse or the doctor or the staff is not going to help.
对护士、医生或工作人员说侮辱性的话是没有帮助的。
It's going to make things worse.
这会让事情变得更糟。
I think the number one way-- I can tell you that in terms of me as a physician, if I'm speaking to a patient and we have a family member that is asking me intelligent questions about something, that's going to put me up on my game.
我认为第一个方式 - 我可以告诉你，就我作为一名医生而言，如果我正在与患者交谈并且我们有一位家庭成员向我询问有关某事的明智问题，这将使我能够继续我的比赛。
That's going to make sure that I know I've got to be ready for rounds because you're not going to be glossing over things.
这将确保我知道我必须为回合做好准备，因为你不会掩盖事情。
They're going to be asking some tough questions.
他们会问一些棘手的问题。
I got to know what I'm doing.
我必须知道我在做什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
And that's kind of what I've been doing for the last 10 years, 12 years, in terms of the teaching that I do.
就我所做的教学而言，这就是我过去 10 年、12 年一直在做的事情。
We have a website called MedCram.com where we put up-- If you go to your doctor and you get a CBC back, how do you interpret that CBC?
我们有一个名为 MedCram.com 的网站，我们在那里发布了——如果您去看医生并得到 CBC，您如何解释该 CBC？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can you explain CBC to people?
你能向人们解释一下 CBC 吗？
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
A CBC is a complete blood count, and it's the blood test that you get back when you get your blood test.
CBC 是全血细胞计数，是您进行血液检查时得到的血液检查结果。
There's a metabolic panel that you get back.
您会收到一个代谢面板。
How do you know what's going on with those things?
你怎么知道这些事情是怎么回事？
What about an EKG?
心电图怎么样？
You have these smartwatches that can actually measure your heart rate.
您拥有这些可以实际测量您心率的智能手表。
How can you interpret what's going on there?
你如何解释那里发生的事情？
We've put courses together to educate people.
我们将课程放在一起来教育人们。
We even have courses on diseases.
我们甚至还有疾病课程。
Congestive heart failure.
充血性心力衰竭。
What kind of questions do you need to ask in congestive heart failure?
对于充血性心力衰竭，您需要问哪些问题？
What are the things that you need to watch out for?
需要注意哪些事项？
What are the medicines they're going to put you on?
他们会给你开什么药？
What are the side effects of those medicines?
这些药物有哪些副作用？
And you don't have to be that educated, actually, or even know that much, but if you can show that you're asking the right questions to a physician, they're going to ask you, "Are you in the medical field?" You're like, "No, I just know about this disease, and I have these questions about when are you going to start to do this?
事实上，你不必受过那么多教育，甚至不需要知道那么多，但如果你能证明你向医生提出了正确的问题，他们就会问你，“你是在医学领域吗？”你会说，“不，我只知道这种疾病，我有这些问题，你什么时候开始做这个？
When are you going to start to do this?
你什么时候开始做这件事？
When is this happening?
这是什么时候发生的事？
And when's the next-- " I think that, more than anything, puts those people who are taking care of you on alert to know that you're intelligent, you're going to be asking some questions, and they're going to need to make sure that they focus on answering those questions effectively.
下一次是什么时候——”我认为，这最重要的是让那些照顾你的人保持警惕，知道你很聪明，你会问一些问题，他们需要确保他们专注于有效地回答这些问题。
I think that's the number one thing.
我认为这是第一件事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love it, and thank you for stepping right in the line of fire with that one-
我喜欢它，感谢你和那个人一起走进火线-
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Oh, yeah
哦，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and not trying to dodge it.
并且没有试图躲避它。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
No, no.
不，不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It speaks to the kind of person you are.
它说明了你是一个什么样的人。
It speaks to the spirit behind your work, which is so clearly in service to helping people.
它体现了你工作背后的精神，这种精神显然是为了帮助人们。
It's such a cliché thing we hear, helping people, I want to help people.
这是我们听到的陈词滥调，帮助人们，我想帮助人们。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it's very clear that you want to help people.
但很明显你想帮助别人。
You do this in your social media.
您可以在社交媒体中执行此操作。
You do this through your online teaching.
您可以通过在线教学来做到这一点。
We'll, by the way, provide links to all these sources, and you're doing this in so many ways and, of course, in your clinical practice.
顺便说一句，我们将提供所有这些来源的链接，您可以通过多种方式做到这一点，当然，在您的临床实践中。
And for all those reasons, and also for coming here today to take time out of your very busy professional and family schedule, and you have your own self-care.
出于所有这些原因，也为了今天来到这里从您非常繁忙的职业和家庭日程中抽出时间，并且您有自己的自我照顾。
If you're not healthy, you can't take care of other people's health.
如果你不健康，你就无法照顾别人的健康。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I just want to say on behalf of myself and everyone listening and watching, thank you so much.
我只想代表我自己以及所有聆听和观看的人说声，非常感谢你们。
I learned a ton, and I know everyone else listening did as well.
我学到了很多东西，我知道其他听的人也学到了很多东西。
It's all actionable in service to basic health and improving health-
这一切都是为了服务基本健康和改善健康而采取行动的——
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and in service to avoiding illness.
并有助于避免疾病。
Those are not the same thing necessarily, although they go hand-in-hand.
这些不一定是同一件事，尽管它们是齐头并进的。
And to moving through illness, should one contract an infection, and just a treasure trove of knowledge.
如果一个人感染了疾病，那么要度过疾病，这只是一个知识的宝库。
So thank you so much.
非常感谢。
I'd love to have you back again.
我很想让你再次回来。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
I would love to come back.
我很想回来。
Thanks.
谢谢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I look forward to seeing you online, but even more so in person.
我期待在网上见到您，但更期待面对面见到您。
So thank you so much, Dr. Shwelt.
非常感谢您，Shwelt 博士。
You're a real gem.
你真是一颗宝石。
Dr. Roger Seheult:
罗杰·瑟休博士：
Thank you so much.
非常感谢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Roger Shwelt.
再次感谢您参加今天与 Roger Shwelt 博士的讨论。
To learn more about his work and to find links to him on social media and YouTube, please see the show note captions.
要了解有关他的作品的更多信息并在社交媒体和 YouTube 上找到他的链接，请参阅演出说明文字。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific, zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳且零成本的方式。
In addition, please click follow for the podcast on both Spotify and Apple, and on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
另外，请在 Spotify 和 Apple 上点击关注该播客，在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们留下五星级的评论。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客或嘉宾有意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑的主题，请将这些内容放在 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience, and it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这是我花了五年多时间编写的一本书，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验，涵盖了从睡眠到运动到压力控制的各个方面的方案，以及与注意力和动机相关的方案，当然，我还为所包含的方案提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." If you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。
So that's Instagram, X, formerly known as Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Threads.
这就是 Instagram、X，以前称为 Twitter、Facebook、LinkedIn 和 Threads。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容不同。
Again, that's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
再说一次，这就是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available completely zero cost.
所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件即可。
And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Roger Shwelt.
再次感谢您参加今天与 Roger Shwelt 博士的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。