How to Achieve Inner Peace & Healing | Dr. Richard Schwartz
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. Richard Schwartz.
今天我的嘉宾是理查德·施瓦茨博士。
Dr. Richard Schwartz is the founder of Internal Family Systems Therapy, which is a unique form of therapy that's less centered on your relationship to other people, but instead focuses mainly on identifying the parts of yourself and your personality that tend to emerge in different situations and that tend to create anxiety, resent, or depression.
理查德·施瓦茨博士是内部家庭系统疗法的创始人，这是一种独特的疗法，不太关注你与他人的关系，而是主要关注于识别你自己和你的性格中在不同情况下容易出现并容易产生焦虑、怨恨或抑郁的部分。
Another key feature of Internal Family Systems Therapy is that it's not just focused on fixing challenges within us, it also teaches you how to grow your confidence, openness, and compassion.
内部家庭系统疗法的另一个关键特点是，它不仅仅专注于解决我们内部的挑战，它还教你如何增强你的自信、开放性和同情心。
Now, today's episode is different than any other episode of the podcast that we've done before, and that's for two reasons.
现在，今天的这一集与我们之前制作的播客的任何其他一集都不同，这有两个原因。
First, Dr. Schwartz takes me through a brief session of IFS therapy, so you can see exactly what it looks like in practice, and then he takes you, the listener, through it as well.
首先，施瓦茨博士向我介绍了 IFS 治疗的简短过程，以便您可以准确地看到它在实践中的样子，然后他也向您（听众）介绍了它。
So as you'll soon observe and experience, Internal Family Systems Therapy allows you to work through challenging sticking points, basically the parts or feelings within you that you don't like to have, and then it shows you how to convert those feelings into more functional aspects of yourself.
因此，正如您很快就会观察和体验到的那样，内部家庭系统疗法可以让您解决具有挑战性的症结，基本上是您内心不喜欢的部分或感觉，然后它向您展示如何将这些感觉转化为自己更实用的方面。
So as you'll soon see, Internal Family Systems Therapy is both super interesting and it's an incredibly empowering practice.
因此，您很快就会看到，内部家庭系统疗法非常有趣，而且是一种令人难以置信的赋权实践。
It's also a form of therapy that's now been studied and for which there's a lot of peer-reviewed science to support its efficacy.
这也是一种目前正在研究的治疗方法，并且有大量经过同行评审的科学来支持其功效。
By the end of today's episode, Dr. Dick Schwartz will have shown you that a lot of the negative reactions that we tend to have with different people and things tend to originate from a few basic patterns that once we understand, we can really transmute into more positive responses.
在今天的节目结束时，迪克·施瓦茨博士将向您展示，我们对不同的人和事的许多负面反应往往源于一些基本模式，一旦我们理解了这些模式，我们就可以真正转化为更积极的反应。
It's a really interesting practice.
这是一个非常有趣的实践。
It's one that you can apply today during the episode, and that you can return to in order to apply going forward in your life.
您今天可以在这一集中应用它，并且可以返回以在您的生活中继续应用。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, this episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，这一集确实有赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Richard Schwartz.
现在我与理查德·施瓦茨博士进行了讨论。
Dr. Dick Schwartz, welcome.
迪克·施瓦茨博士，欢迎光临。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Thank you, Andrew.
谢谢你，安德鲁。
It's delightful to be with you.
和你在一起很高兴。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I've heard so much about you and your work and internal family systems models.
我听说过很多关于你和你的工作以及内部家庭系统模型的事情。
I've had the opportunity to do a little bit of that work.
我有机会做一些这样的工作。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And to be honest, I don't know whether or not the person I did that work with was formally trained in it.
老实说，我不知道与我一起工作的人是否接受过正式的培训。
So-
所以——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I'd like to start off by just asking you what is internal family systems and what are the different components?
我想首先问您什么是内部家庭系统以及有哪些不同的组成部分？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And as we do that, I'm sure people are going to be thinking about these various components for their own life and the people in their lives.
当我们这样做时，我相信人们会考虑他们自己的生活以及他们生活中的人的这些不同组成部分。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Well, originally, I developed it as a form of psychotherapy, which is probably the way it's used most now.
嗯，最初，我将其开发为心理治疗的一种形式，这可能是现在最常用的方式。
But it's also become a kind of life practice, and just a paradigm for understanding the human mind and as an alternative to the culture's paradigm.
但它也成为一种生活实践，成为理解人类心灵的范式，并作为文化范式的替代。
So that's saying a lot.
这说明了很多。
And it's been quite a journey.
这是一段相当长的旅程。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know of Freudian psychoanalysis.
我知道弗洛伊德的精神分析。
I know of any number of different branches of psychology that have a clinical slant to them.
我知道许多不同的心理学分支都具有临床倾向。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's cognitive behavioral therapy.
有认知行为疗法。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What are the core components of internal family systems?
家庭内部系统的核心组成部分是什么？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So one basic assumption is that the mind isn't unitary, that actually we're all multiple personalities, not in the diagnostic sense.
因此，一个基本假设是，心灵不是单一的，实际上我们都是多重人格，这不是诊断意义上的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
But we all have these, what I call parts, other systems call subpersonalities, ego states, things like that.
但我们都有这些，我称之为部分，其他系统称之为次人格，自我状态，诸如此类的东西。
And that it's the natural state of the mind to be that way.
这是心灵的自然状态。
That we're born with them because they're all very valuable and have qualities and resources to help us survive and thrive.
我们生来就拥有它们，因为它们都非常有价值，并且拥有帮助我们生存和发展的品质和资源。
But trauma and what's called attachment injuries and the slings and arrows we suffer force these little naturally valuable parts into roles that can be destructive.
但是创伤和所谓的依恋伤害以及我们所遭受的弹弓和箭迫使这些小而自然有价值的部分扮演了可能具有破坏性的角色。
Often, they don't like it all, but because they're frozen often in time during the trauma, and they live as if it's still happening, they're in these protective roles that can be quite extreme and interfere in your life.
通常，他们并不喜欢这一切，但因为他们在创伤期间经常被及时冻结，而且他们的生活就好像创伤仍在发生，他们扮演的保护角色可能非常极端并干扰你的生活。
And yeah, so I just stumbled on the phenomena 40, now I think it's 41 years ago.
是的，所以我只是偶然发现了 40 的现象，现在我认为那是 41 年前了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
And it's been an amazing ride.
这是一次奇妙的旅程。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So at the time, were you already practicing as a clinical psychologist?
那么当时您已经从事临床心理学家工作了吗？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Actually, I have a PhD in marital and family therapy.
事实上，我拥有婚姻和家庭治疗博士学位。
So I was part of the movement in family therapy away from intrapsychic work.
因此，我参与了家庭治疗远离心灵工作的运动。
There was a polarization, and we thought we could reorganize families and heal all these symptoms just by doing that.
出现了两极分化，我们认为只要这样做就可以重组家庭并治愈所有这些症状。
We didn't have to muck around in the inner world.
我们不必在内心世界里胡闹。
And I went to prove that, and this was about 1983, by getting a group of bulimic kids together and their families, and tried to reorganize the families just the way the book said to and failed.
我去证明了这一点，大约在 1983 年，我把一群患有暴食症的孩子和他们的家人聚集在一起，试图按照书中所说的方式重组家庭，但失败了。
The kids didn't realize they'd been cured, and they kept binging and purging.
孩子们没有意识到自己已经痊愈了，他们不断地暴饮暴食。
So out of frustration, I began asking why, and they started talking this language of parts, and they would say some version of, "When something bad happens in my life, it triggers this critic who's calling me all kinds of names inside, and that goes right to the heart of a part that feels empty and alone and worthless.
所以出于沮丧，我开始问为什么，他们开始谈论这种部分语言，他们会说一些版本，“当我的生活中发生不好的事情时，它会触发这个批评家，他在内心对我发出各种各样的名字，这直击了我感到空虚、孤独和毫无价值的部分的核心。
And that's so distressing to feel that the binge part comes in and takes me out, takes me away from all that pain.
感觉暴饮暴食的部分进来并带我出去，带我远离所有痛苦，真是令人痛苦。
But the critic comes in and attacks me for the binge." And then the criticism goes right to the heart of that worthless part.
但评论家进来攻击我的狂欢。”然后批评就直指那个毫无价值的部分的核心。
So to me, as a family therapist, this sounded like what I'd been studying in external families, these circular sequences of interaction.
所以对我来说，作为一名家庭治疗师，这听起来就像我在外部家庭中研究的那样，这些互动的循环序列。
And so I just got curious and just started to explore.
所以我只是好奇并开始探索。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are these different parts that exist within each and all of us, are they represented by a clear and distinct voice from the other?
这些不同的部分是否存在于我们每个人的内心，它们是否由彼此清晰而独特的声音代表？
Or do people typically experience them as just the self, like my inner critic?
或者人们通常将他们视为自我，就像我内心的批评者一样？
You'll give us the other names and titles.
您将向我们提供其他姓名和头衔。
Or is this happening typically below people's conscious awareness?
或者这种情况通常发生在人们的意识之下？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Some of both.
两者都有一些。
So most people are aware of their critic, but other times you're not aware of these parts we call exiles that you've locked away because you didn't want to feel their feelings.
所以大多数人都知道他们的批评者，但其他时候你并没有意识到这些被我们称为流亡者的部分，你因为不想感受到他们的感受而将它们锁起来。
They're stuck in these bad trauma scenes, and to survive in your life, you had to push them away.
他们被困在这些糟糕的创伤场景中，为了在你的生活中生存，你必须把他们推开。
And so with those parts, a lot of people aren't really consciously aware of them until these protector parts give space and open the door to the exiles.
因此，对于这些部件，很多人并没有真正有意识地意识到它们，直到这些保护部件为流放者提供空间并打开大门。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, BetterHelp.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 BetterHelp。
BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online.
BetterHelp 提供由持证治疗师完全在线进行的专业治疗。
Now, I personally have been doing therapy weekly for well over 30 years.
现在，我个人每周进行治疗已有 30 多年了。
In fact, I consider doing regular therapy just as important as getting regular exercise, which of course I also do every week.
事实上，我认为定期治疗和定期锻炼一样重要，当然我每周都会这样做。
There are essentially three things that great therapy provides.
伟大的治疗本质上可以提供三件事。
First of all, it provides a good rapport with somebody that you can trust and talk to about pretty much any issue with.
首先，它与您可以信任的人建立了良好的融洽关系，并且可以与您谈论几乎任何问题。
Second of all, it can provide support in the form of emotional support and directed guidance.
其次，它可以以情感支持和定向指导的形式提供支持。
And third, expert therapy can provide useful insights.
第三，专家治疗可以提供有用的见解。
Insights that allow you to better not just your emotional life and your relationship life, but of course also the relationship to yourself and your professional life and to all sorts of goals.
这些见解不仅可以让您改善您的情感生活和人际关系生活，当然还可以改善您与自己、职业生活以及各种目标的关系。
BetterHelp makes it very easy to find an expert therapist with whom you resonate with and that can provide you those three benefits that come from effective therapy.
BetterHelp 让您可以轻松找到与您产生共鸣的专家治疗师，并且可以为您提供有效治疗带来的三大好处。
Also, because BetterHelp allows for therapy to be done entirely online, it's super time efficient and easy to fit into a busy schedule.
此外，由于 BetterHelp 允许完全在线进行治疗，因此它的时间效率非常高，并且很容易适应繁忙的日程。
If you'd like to try BetterHelp, you can go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month.
如果您想尝试 BetterHelp，可以访问 betterhelp.com/huberman，第一个月可享受 10% 的折扣。
Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman.
再说一次，这是 betterhelp.com/huberman。
Today's episode is also brought to us by David.
今天的节目也是大卫给我们带来的。
David makes a protein bar unlike any other.
大卫制作的蛋白质棒与众不同。
It has 28 grams of protein, only 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar.
它含有 28 克蛋白质，仅 150 卡路里，零克糖。
That's right, 28 grams of protein and 75% of its calories come from protein.
没错，28克蛋白质，其75%的热量都来自于蛋白质。
This is 50% higher than the next closest protein bar.
这比第二接近的蛋白质棒高出 50%。
David protein bars also taste amazing.
大卫蛋白棒的味道也很棒。
Even the texture is amazing.
就连质感也令人惊叹。
My favorite bar is the chocolate chip cookie dough, but then again, I also like the new chocolate peanut butter flavor and the chocolate brownie flavor.
我最喜欢的巧克力棒是巧克力饼干面团，但话又说回来，我也喜欢新的巧克力花生酱口味和巧克力布朗尼口味。
Basically, I like all the flavors a lot.
基本上，所有的口味我都很喜欢。
They're all incredibly delicious.
它们都非常美味。
In fact, the toughest challenge is knowing which ones to eat on which days and how many times per day.
事实上，最艰巨的挑战是知道哪一天吃哪些食物以及每天吃多少次。
I limit myself to two per day, but I absolutely love them.
我限制自己每天只能吃两个，但我绝对喜欢它们。
With David, I'm able to get 28 grams of protein in the calories of a snack, which makes it easy to hit my protein goals of one gram of protein per pound of body weight per day, and it allows me to do so without ingesting too many calories.
有了 David，我就能在一份零食的卡路里中获得 28 克蛋白质，这让我很容易达到每天每磅体重 1 克蛋白质的蛋白质目标，而且我可以在不摄入太多卡路里的情况下实现这一目标。
I'll eat a David protein bar most afternoons as a snack, and I always keep one with me when I'm out of the house or traveling.
大多数下午我都会吃大卫蛋白棒作为零食，当我出门或旅行时，我总是随身携带一根。
They're incredibly delicious, and given that they have 28 grams of protein, they're really satisfying for having just 150 calories.
它们非常美味，而且含有 28 克蛋白质，仅含 150 卡路里热量就已经很令人满意了。
If you'd like to try David, you can go to davidprotein.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 David，可以访问 david Protein.com/huberman。
Again, that's davidprotein.com/huberman.
同样，这是 david Protein.com/huberman。
I definitely want to go into what the various protector roles or titles are, labels, excuse me, and the exiles.
我确实想探讨一下各种保护者角色或头衔是什么、标签是什么，对不起，还有流放者。
Before we do that, since you brought up the topic of trauma, and this is a topic that I think many people are interested in, I'm just curious, how do you define a trauma?
在我们开始之前，既然你提出了创伤这个话题，我想这是一个很多人感兴趣的话题，我只是很好奇，你如何定义创伤？
And why do you think it is that traumas tend to lock us into a state that was representative of an earlier time?
您认为为什么创伤往往会将我们锁定在代表早期的状态中？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Why is it that it's so linked to this thing of time perception?
为什么它与时间感知这个东西如此相关？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
The why question I can't totally answer, but it definitely is.
为什么这个问题我无法完全回答，但确实如此。
And for me, traumas aren't necessarily traumatizing.
对我来说，创伤并不一定会造成创伤。
So something bad happens to you, and if you can access what you and Martha Beck were calling the Self, it's capitalized, and you go to the part of you that got hurt by what happened, instead of pushing it away and locking it up, and you embrace it, and you bring it closer to you, which means going to your suffering, which is counter to what most of us try to do.
所以，一些不好的事情发生在你身上，如果你能接触到你和玛莎·贝克所说的“自我”，它就被资本化了，你会走向你因所发生的事情而受伤的部分，而不是把它推开并锁起来，你拥抱它，让它离你更近，这意味着走向你的痛苦，这与我们大多数人试图做的相反。
But if you were to do that, and you could help it unload the feelings it got from the trauma, then you're not traumatized.
但如果你这样做，并且你可以帮助它摆脱创伤带来的感受，那么你就不会受到创伤。
What's traumatizing is something bad happens, these more vulnerable parts of us, the most sensitive parts of us, get hurt or feel worthless because of what happened, or get terrified, and then we lock them away because we don't want to feel that feeling anymore, and everybody around us tells us to just let it go, just move on, don't look back.
令人痛苦的是，发生了一些不好的事情，我们身上最脆弱的部分，我们最敏感的部分，因为发生的事情而受到伤害或感到毫无价值，或者感到害怕，然后我们把它们锁起来，因为我们不想再感受到那种感觉，而我们周围的每个人都告诉我们放手，继续前进，不要回头。
And so we wind up exiling our most sensitive parts simply because they got hurt.
因此，我们最终只是因为受伤而放逐了我们最敏感的部分。
And then when you have a lot of exiles, you feel more delicate.
当你有很多流放者时，你会感觉更加脆弱。
The world seems more dangerous because anything could trigger that.
世界似乎更加危险，因为任何事情都可能引发这种情况。
And when they get triggered, they'll blow up, they'll take over.
当它们被触发时，它们就会爆炸，它们就会接管。
So it's like these flames of raw emotion come popping out.
所以就像这些原始情感的火焰突然迸发出来。
So other parts are forced into these manager roles or these protective roles.
因此，其他部分被迫扮演这些管理者角色或这些保护角色。
And some of them are trying to manage your life so that you don't get triggered anymore, so that, for example, nobody gets close enough to you to trigger any of that, or so you You look really good, so you don't get rejected or perform at a really high level to counter the worthlessness.
他们中的一些人试图管理你的生活，这样你就不会再被触发，这样，例如，没有人离你足够近以触发任何事情，或者让你看起来非常好，这样你就不会被拒绝或表现出很高的水平来对抗无价值。
Many of those become the critics because in their effort to try to get you to look good, they're yelling at you to try and behave and do what they want so you look better.
其中许多人成为批评者，因为他们试图让你看起来更好，他们对你大喊大叫，让你尝试表现得更好，做他们想做的事，这样你看起来更好。
And then there are other, what we call manager protectors that are, for some people, particularly women, have these massive caretaking parts that don't let them take care of themselves and take care of everybody else.
还有其他的，我们称之为经理保护者，对于某些人，特别是女性来说，有大量的照顾部分，不允许他们照顾自己和照顾其他人。
And so I could go on and on.
这样我就可以继续说下去。
There's a lot of common manager roles.
有很多常见的经理角色。
And I want to make clear as I'm talking about this that these are not the essence of the parts, and that's a big mistake that most of the field has made, is to assume the critic is just an internalized critical parental voice instead of listening to it and hearing that it's desperately trying to protect you.
当我谈论这个时，我想澄清的是，这些并不是这些部分的本质，这是大多数领域所犯的一个大错误，就是假设批评者只是内在的批判性父母的声音，而不是倾听它并听到它拼命地试图保护你。
So none of these are what they seem.
所以这些都不是他们看起来的那样。
That's the role they've been forced into.
这就是他们被迫扮演的角色。
And the analogy, again, is to an external family.
这个类比又是针对外部家庭的。
Like kids in dysfunctional families are forced into these extreme roles that aren't who they are.
就像功能失调的家庭中的孩子被迫扮演这些与他们本不一样的极端角色一样。
It's the role they got forced into by the dynamics of the family.
It's the role they got forced into by the dynamics of the family.
So the same is true with this internal family.
这个内部家庭也是如此。
So most of us have a lot of what we call managers.
所以我们大多数人都有很多我们所说的管理者。
They got us here.
他们把我们带到了这里。
They help us in our careers, and other systems would call them the defenses or the ego.
它们在我们的职业生涯中帮助我们，其他系统将它们称为防御或自我。
And in spirituality, they get vilified, too.
在灵性方面，他们也受到诽谤。
But their whole MO is keep everything under control, please everybody, and you'll survive.
但他们的整个模式就是控制一切，取悦每个人，你就会生存下来。
The world has a way of breaking through those defenses, triggering an exile.
世界有办法突破这些防御，引发流放。
When that happens, it's a big emergency because, again, these flames of raw emotion are going to overwhelm you and make you have trouble functioning or even getting out of bed.
当这种情况发生时，这是一个很大的紧急情况，因为这些原始情绪的火焰将再次淹没你，让你无法正常工作，甚至无法起床。
So there are other parts that immediately go into action to deal with that emergency.
So there are other parts that immediately go into action to deal with that emergency.
And in contrast to these managers, they're impulsive, reactive, damn the torpedoes.
与这些经理相比，他们很冲动，反应迟钝，该死的鱼雷。
I don't care about the collateral damage to your body, to your relationships.
I don't care about the collateral damage to your body, to your relationships.
I just got to get you higher than those flames or douse them with some substance or distract you till they burn themselves out.
I just got to get you higher than those flames or douse them with some substance or distract you till they burn themselves out.
So we call those firefighters.
所以我们称这些消防员为消防员。
And again, these are just the roles.
再说一次，这些只是角色。
When released from these roles, they'll transform into being something very valuable.
When released from these roles, they'll transform into being something very valuable.
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the inner firefighter role is one of the exiles that surfaces-
So the inner firefighter role is one of the exiles that surfaces-
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Sometimes
有时
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
under conditions of a lot of emotion.
在很多情绪的情况下。
This is a beautiful description, and I'm completely on board this idea that we have multiple aspects of self or selves inside.
This is a beautiful description, and I'm completely on board this idea that we have multiple aspects of self or selves inside.
Jung said that, too, I think, right?
我想荣格也这么说过吧？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like you-
像你一样——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Jung had all this a long time ago.
荣格很久以前就拥有了这一切。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And what I like about this protectors/managers versus, again, not versus because they're combative, but as a distinct category, the exiles, it just feels very true to me.
我喜欢这些保护者/管理者的地方，再次强调，不是因为他们好斗，而是作为一个独特的类别，流亡者，这对我来说非常真实。
And I like the directness of the language.
我喜欢这种语言的直接性。
So maybe we could just create a mental grid for people.
So maybe we could just create a mental grid for people.
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's say I came to you as a patient, and I said, "Listen, I'm..." I'll be honest.
Let's say I came to you as a patient, and I said, "Listen, I'm..." I'll be honest.
Why not?
为什么不呢？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Let's do it.
让我们开始吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's do it.
让我们开始吧。
All right.
好的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Let's do it.
让我们开始吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Secretly, I brought you here to get therapy.
我偷偷地带你来这里接受治疗。
No. But okay, so I'm somebody who for a very long time has been able to organize his life.
No. But okay, so I'm somebody who for a very long time has been able to organize his life.
I tend to have smooth interactions with my coworkers, great friendships.
我倾向于与同事互动顺利，友谊深厚。
I now have a very good relationship with my immediate family.
I now have a very good relationship with my immediate family.
Very good, in fact.
事实上，非常好。
I'm still working on a few things with a few people, but I'm living in a mode of great joy and appreciation these days.
我仍在与几个人一起做一些事情，但这些天我生活在一种极大的快乐和感激之中。
However, I'm not going to give the details of this for sake of privacy, but the other day, I was in a discussion with a family member.
However, I'm not going to give the details of this for sake of privacy, but the other day, I was in a discussion with a family member.
They had a grievance with me that I felt we had already addressed, and it became a very high friction conversation very quickly to the point where we tabled as an idea that maybe we just take some serious space.
他们对我有不满，我觉得我们已经解决了，这很快就变成了一场非常摩擦的对话，以至于我们提出了一个想法，也许我们只是需要一些严肃的空间。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which was not reflective of how deeply I love this person or they love me.
Which was not reflective of how deeply I love this person or they love me.
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was just a feeling of both of us just being in this high tension place, like, "Ugh." And fortunately, the conversation ended well with a path forward that involved more contact, not less.
It was just a feeling of both of us just being in this high tension place, like, "Ugh." And fortunately, the conversation ended well with a path forward that involved more contact, not less.
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That both of us feel really good about.
我们俩都感觉很好。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But in that moment where I'm feeling overwhelmed-
But in that moment where I'm feeling overwhelmed-
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and they're feeling overwhelmed-
他们感到不知所措——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
what's going on there?
那里发生了什么事？
We're both adults.
我们都是成年人了。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
So overwhelmed with anger at each other or-
彼此都充满愤怒，或者——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Frustration.
沮丧。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Frustration, yeah.
沮丧，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Frustration, like that previous conversations, I felt I was saying things, they were saying things, but I feel like there was so much underlying tension based on-
沮丧，就像之前的谈话一样，我觉得我在说什么，他们也在说什么，但我觉得有太多潜在的紧张基于——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a history of poor communication nested on top of the kind of an intensity of emotion that we both tend to carry.
沟通不畅的历史是建立在我们双方都倾向于承受的强烈情感之上的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And somehow we just couldn't parse things from that state.
不知何故，我们无法从该状态解析事物。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so I sat in my chair, and I just told myself, "Okay, I'm going to not say anything-
于是我坐在椅子上，告诉自己，“好吧，我什么也不说——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for five minutes because I know myself."
五分钟，因为我了解我自己。”
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not that I thought I would say something really barbed wire, but I just thought, "This is not going to work.
我并不是想说一些真正的铁丝网的话，但我只是想，“这行不通。
I'm slamming my head against a wall."
我正在用头撞墙。”
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"They're not hearing me.
“他们没有在听我说话。
I'm clearly not hearing them."
我显然没有听到他们的声音。”
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the thing that helped me through that was just because it was what was taught to me, I just decided to surrender.
帮助我度过难关的事情只是因为这是教给我的，我决定投降。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the word surrender used to mean to me letting go of truth.
投降这个词曾经对我来说意味着放弃真理。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it felt really scary because when you say surrender, it's almost like saying one context is surrender means you're right, no matter, and you're right.
这感觉真的很可怕，因为当你说投降时，几乎就像说一种情况是投降意味着你是对的，无论如何，你是对的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
I was just going to say, that's right.
我只是想说，没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I've come to realize that surrender to me is just a, it's surrender in the moment-
但我开始意识到，对我来说，臣服只是一种，那一刻的臣服——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
so that I can get better optics.
这样我就能获得更好的光学效果。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Internal and external optics.
内部和外部光学器件。
So to me, the thing of embracing surrender in those types of moments, very uncomfortable.
所以对我来说，在那种时刻拥抱投降是非常不舒服的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I now have learned it's a great way to get perspective.
但我现在了解到这是获得观点的好方法。
But even as I describe it, the whole situation was so heavy.
但即使正如我所描述的，整个情况也是如此严峻。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I came out of that call, even though it ended well, and was like, "Ugh."
尽管结局很好，但我从那通电话中走出来后就觉得，“呃。”
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like, "Ugh." That was like, I'd never run a marathon, but I'd rather run a marathon than do two of those a week.
就像，“呃”。就像，我从来没有跑过马拉松，但我宁愿跑马拉松也不愿每周跑两次。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Totally agree, and-
完全同意，并且——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
...
...
I had one of those with my wife a few days ago.
几天前我和我的妻子一起吃了其中一份。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, okay.
哦，好吧。
All right.
好的。
Well.
出色地。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
And yeah, very similar.
是的，非常相似。
Just caught that part and said, "Okay, let's just let it go for now, and we'll talk later."
刚刚抓住了那部分，就说：“好吧，我们先把这件事先放一边，稍后我们再谈。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
So I could give you my take on what happened-
所以我可以告诉你我对发生的事情的看法-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
...
...
but if you wanted to, we could just go in and do a little exploring.
但如果你愿意的话，我们可以进去做一些探索。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah?
是吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Okay.
好的。
Should we start with the frustrated, angry part?
我们应该从沮丧、愤怒的部分开始吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
All right.
好吧。
You ready?
你准备好了吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I believe so, yeah.
我相信是的，是的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Okay.
好的。
So remember that feeling.
所以记住那种感觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
And then focus on it and find it in your body or around your body.
然后集中注意力，在你的身体里或者你的身体周围找到它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Where do you find it?
你在哪里找到它？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's somewhere between the middle of my midsection and up, like right behind my forehead.
它位于我的腹部中部和上方之间的某个位置，就像我的额头后面一样。
There's pressure-
有压力——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
That's great
太好了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in both places.
在这两个地方。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
It's great you have such clarity about it.
你能这么清楚地了解这一点真是太好了。
So as you focus there, how do you feel toward this part of you?
那么当你专注于那里时，你对自己的这一部分感觉如何？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know.
我不知道。
It's very unpleasant.
这是非常不愉快的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
So you don't like it?
所以你不喜欢它？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I don't like it.
不，我不喜欢它。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Which makes sense-
这是有道理的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
...
...
because it does sometimes escalate things with your friend, and doesn't leave you feeling good.
因为有时这确实会让你和朋友之间的事情升级，而且不会让你感觉良好。
So I understand why you don't like it.
所以我明白你为什么不喜欢它。
But we're going to ask the parts that don't like it to give us the space to just get curious about it, and see if that's possible.
但我们会要求那些不喜欢它的部分给我们空间来对它感到好奇，看看这是否可能。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
So how do you feel toward it now?
那么你现在对此感觉如何？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I feel a little bit of relaxation in the head part of it.
我感觉头部有一点放松。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It's funny how when you asked me to localize it, it's so clear.
有趣的是，当你要求我对其进行本地化时，它是如此清晰。
It's like this thing inside me.
就像我内心的这个东西。
It's about the size of a teddy bear that's just like, "Oh!"
它大约有泰迪熊那么大，就像“哦！”
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it's not a good thing.
但这不是什么好事。
It's pushed up there.
它被推到那里了。
But then when you said to get curious about it, it feels like it kind of drops down a little bit and kind of-
但当你说要对此感到好奇时，感觉它有点下降了，有点——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
That's great
太好了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
moves in a little, maybe softens a little bit.
稍微移动一点，也许软化一点。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
So you do feel curious toward it?
那么你对此感到好奇吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
All right.
好吧。
So go ahead and ask it what it wants you to know about itself.
因此，请继续询问它希望您了解其自身的哪些信息。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Silently?
默默地？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Up to you.
由你决定。
Either way.
无论哪种方式。
Whichever is more comfortable.
哪个更舒服。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, since this is a podcast and none of this is comfortable anyway for me to do in public- ...
好吧，因为这是一个播客，而且对我来说在公共场合做这些都不舒服——......
to be, if I'm quite honest.
是的，如果我很诚实的话。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah, just ask inside.
是的，进去问一下。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
No, I'll do it out loud.
不，我会大声说出来。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so what do you want me to know about you?
好吧，那你想让我知道关于你的什么信息？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
You.
你。
Yeah.
是的。
And just wait for the answer.
等待答案。
Don't think.
别想了。
I know you've got a big cognitive part, so we're going to ask that one to relax.
我知道你的认知部分很重要，所以我们要请那个部分放松。
And just whatever comes in terms of the answer-
无论答案是什么——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
...
...
just wait for it.
等等吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Well, my answer is based on the feeling that occurred immediately after asking it-
嗯，我的回答是基于提问后立即出现的感觉——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which was, the answer was, "I can dissipate." And then I kind of felt it dissipate.
答案是：“我可以消散。”然后我感觉它消散了。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it feels like an energy, that when condensed, sucks.
所以感觉就像是一种能量，当浓缩时，会很糟糕。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But when I look at it, softened a little bit-
但当我看到它的时候，我的心情又变得柔和了一些——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and then it asked the question you asked, and then it feels like it just kind of went into the rest of my body.
然后它问了你问的问题，然后感觉它就进入了我身体的其他部分。
But not poisoning the rest of my body, just kind of mixing in with-
但并没有毒害我身体的其他部分，只是混合在一起——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Okay
好的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of course, we're speaking in completely mystical terms here, but-
当然，我们在这里用的是完全神秘的术语，但是——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
So it relaxed.
于是就放松了。
It may not have dissipated in the way we think about that.
它可能并没有以我们思考的方式消失。
It might have just relaxed more.
可能只是放松了一些。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
But just keep asking it, what's it afraid would happen if in that context it didn't try to take over in the way that it did?
但继续问它，如果在这种情况下它不尝试以它所做的方式接管，担心会发生什么？
Just ask that question.
就问这个问题吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That if it didn't try to take over?
如果它不尝试接管呢？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
What's it afraid would happen if it hadn't tried to take over?
如果它不尝试接管的话，担心会发生什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh.
哦。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Just wait for the answer.
请等待答案。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, that's a good question.
是的，这是一个好问题。
Okay, so what would happen if you didn't take over my system that way?
好吧，如果你不那样接管我的系统会发生什么？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Condense from my stomach up to my head when I'm feeling that way.
当我有这种感觉时，从我的胃到我的头凝结。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Don't think.
别想了。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, the answers are coming really quick.
哦，答案来得真快。
That I wouldn't be able to discern the truth.
以至于我无法辨别真相。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Okay.
好的。
So the truth is really important to this part of you.
所以真相对于你的这一部分来说非常重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Because it tends to surface when I'm hearing something that I-
因为当我听到一些我-
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
That you know is wrong
你所知道的是错误的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that I believe to be fundamentally untrue, typically about my thoughts or feelings, right?
我认为这根本上是不真实的，通常是关于我的想法或感受，对吧？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've come, maybe with age-
我来了，也许随着年龄的增长——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I've come to the conclusion that two people can look at the same interaction or same thing and have two very different versions of it.
我得出的结论是，两个人可以看到相同的交互或相同的事物，并且有两个截然不同的版本。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm okay with that.
我对此表示同意。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The part that I'm very sensitive to, people in my life know this, is when someone else tells me how I feel.
我非常敏感的部分是当别人告诉我我的感受时，我生活中的人都知道这一点。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What my motives are or how I feel.
我的动机是什么或者我的感受如何。
That to me is like that's a kind of a hard, fast way to engage this thing.
对我来说，这就像是一种艰难而快速的方式来参与这件事。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Okay.
好的。
So just stay with this thing.
所以就留在这件事上吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Just stay with it.
就这样吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
And let it know you get that, that having people misinterpret your motives is really hard for it.
让它知道你明白，让人们误解你的动机对它来说真的很难。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
And ask it more about that.
并就此询问更多。
Just, again, don't think, but ask why that's so hard.
只是，再次强调，不要思考，而要问为什么这么难。
Why does that bother it so much?
为什么它这么困扰呢？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
What's it afraid would happen if it let that go?
如果放手的话，害怕会发生什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So why are you afraid to-- or why do you have to step in-
那么你为什么害怕——或者为什么你必须介入——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
when that happens?
什么时候发生？
My answer is not going to be very satisfying for the listeners or for me.
我的回答不会让听众或我自己非常满意。
But it's saying because if you can't hold on to your truth, then nothing will make sense.
但这是因为如果你不能坚持你的真理，那么一切都没有意义。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
So there's something about making sense or nothing making sense that it's really scared of.
因此，它真正害怕的是有意义的事情或没有意义的事情。
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I decided to become a biologist, and to try and understand the meat inside our heads and body that is the nervous system because I felt, and I still feel that it can reveal some fundamental facts or truths as-
我决定成为一名生物学家，并尝试了解我们头部和身体内部的肉，即神经系统，因为我觉得，而且我仍然觉得它可以揭示一些基本事实或真理，例如：
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
understanding reality, as it were, is really important to me because I feel like humans, including myself, of course, are so prone to misinterpretation.
理解现实对我来说真的很重要，因为我觉得人类，当然包括我自己，很容易被误解。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the truth as a thing out there, I'm willing to let go of completely.
所以真相就在那里，我愿意完全放弃。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like completely.
完全喜欢。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The truth as it exists for knowing for certain what my motivations were-
事实的存在是为了确定我的动机是什么——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or what did or didn't happen, but typically it's about motivation.
或者发生了什么或没有发生什么，但通常与动机有关。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What did or didn't happen, you usually can parse with somebody.
发生了什么或没有发生什么，你通常可以与某人一起解析。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's something I feel I need to protect at all costs.
这是我觉得我需要不惜一切代价保护的东西。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So speaking of protect, and so this is a protector part, right?
说到保护，这是保护器部分，对吧？
Ask it if it's protecting other parts of you that are vulnerable and get hurt when someone misattunes to what your motive is.
问问它是否在保护你其他脆弱的部分，并在有人不理解你的动机时受到伤害。
Just ask that question.
就问这个问题吧。
Don't think.
别想了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
That's an easy, that's a fast one.
这是一个简单的过程，也是一个快速的过程。
Not easy, but it's a fast one.
这并不容易，但速度很快。
Yeah, the part of me that feels injured-
是的，我感觉受伤的部分——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
by that is the fact that I believe that I, at least at the beginning and throughout most of a relationship, and even if a relationship ends for whatever reason, that I know it's my nature to try and imagine as much goodness in the intent of the other person as possible.
事实上，我相信，至少在一段关系的开始和整个关系的大部分时间里，即使一段关系因某种原因而结束，我知道我的本性是尝试并想象对方的意图尽可能多的善意。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So if I were to let go of this response, the-
所以如果我放弃这个回应，那么——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
keep going.
继续前进。
In my mind, I'm calling it like this, it's like a titanium teddy bear-shaped thing, but it doesn't feel like a ted-- it's like a titanium block there.
在我看来，我这样称呼它，它就像一个钛泰迪熊形状的东西，但它感觉不像泰迪熊——它就像一个钛块。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I would potentially move into a mode of judgment-
我可能会进入一种判断模式——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of them.
其中。
It's interesting because there are many people from my past and maybe even a few from my present, that people close to me who are pretty well qualified tell me, like I should dislike them or-
这很有趣，因为有很多我过去的人，甚至可能有一些我现在的人，那些与我关系密切、非常有资格的人告诉我，就像我应该不喜欢他们，或者-
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
cut them out of my life and there are a few, maybe one or two instances of people I've cut out of my life.
把他们从我的生活中剔除掉，有一些人，也许是一两个例子，我已经从我的生活中剔除掉了。
But it's my inclination always to just try and see what can-
但我总是倾向于尝试看看能-
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
exist.
存在。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that part feels important to me.
这部分对我来说很重要。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know why it's important now that I've come to think about it.
我不知道为什么现在我开始思考它很重要。
Like-
就像-
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Well, we can ask.
嗯，我们可以问问。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
But-
但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
...
...
so what I'm hearing is this guy, this titanium guy-
所以我听到的是这个人，这个钛金属的人-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
...
...
is keeping at bay another part that can be very judgmental of the other person.
避免对他人做出非常挑剔的另一部分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I don't like feeling that.
我不喜欢那种感觉。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It feels energetically wasteful.
感觉精力很浪费。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And more than that, it feels incredibly sad.
更重要的是，它让人感到非常悲伤。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's sort of like, I think to accept that part of myself is to kind of give up on some fantasy, which is probably an unrealistic fantasy, which is why I'm calling it a fantasy, I realize.
这有点像，我认为接受自己的一部分就是放弃一些幻想，这可能是一个不切实际的幻想，这就是为什么我称其为幻想，我意识到。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Because I look at, and I always have since I was a kid, I look at people as we are among the animals.
因为我看人，而且从我还是个孩子的时候起，我就一直这样看人，就像我们在动物中一样。
We're the curators of the Earth because we're good at technology development.
我们是地球的管理者，因为我们擅长技术开发。
But aside from that, and just like you wouldn't-- I can't imagine that a raccoon looks at another raccoon, and it's like, "That's a bad raccoon."
但除此之外，就像你不会那样——我无法想象一只浣熊看着另一只浣熊，就像是，“那是一只坏浣熊。”
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's just a rabid raccoon.
这只是一只发狂的浣熊。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they just, I sort of yearn for the same-
他们只是，我也有同样的渴望——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
sensitivity to our own species.
对我们自己物种的敏感性。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
I get that.
我明白了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Like, I don't hate anybody.
比如说，我不恨任何人。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Well, there might be parts of you that do, but-
好吧，你的某些部分可能会这样做，但是-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I hate behaviors.
我讨厌行为。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I hate things that people have said or done.
我讨厌人们所说或所做的事情。
Certainly mostly to other people, not to me.
当然主要是对其他人而言，而不是对我而言。
But, yeah, really being angry at someone in a pervasive way, not just in the moment-
但是，是的，确实以一种普遍的方式对某人生气，而不仅仅是在那一刻——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is something that's very difficult for me.
这对我来说是非常困难的事情。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
But what I'm hearing, what we heard from this part, it's afraid if it doesn't do this, a part that judges the other, probably in a not-so-nice way-
但我所听到的，我们从这部分听到的，恐怕如果它不这样做，一个评判对方的部分，可能以一种不太好的方式——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
...
...
would be released.
将被释放。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Does that sound right?
听起来对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
So there is that part in there.
所以那里有那部分。
It's just that you've been able to kind of exile it.
只是你已经能够将它放逐了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I'm comfortable with the idea that you take the appropriate amount of distance, could be zero or could be near infinite, but that I should take the appropriate amount of distance from things and people so that I can be in the most loving stance-
我很乐意接受适当的距离，可以是零，也可以接近无限，但我应该与事物和人保持适当的距离，这样我才能处于最有爱的立场-
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
toward them-
向他们——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or that.
或者那个。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not trying to sound technical here with all the parallel constructions, but I've thought this through a lot.
我并不是想用所有的并行结构来表达技术性，但我已经对此进行了很多思考。
Like, there's some people that I There's no limit to the extent to which I want to interact with them.
就像，有一些人，我想与他们互动的程度是没有限制的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We have other things to do.
我们还有其他事情要做。
We're not going to spend all our time together.
我们不会把所有的时间都花在一起。
And then there are other people that I love them, but I know that I have to keep a certain amount of distance in order to continue to love them.
还有一些我爱他们的人，但我知道我必须保持一定的距离才能继续爱他们。
This is the same thing.
这是同样的事情。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So in that moment, it's almost like, but it's coming up without my conscious thing.
所以在那一刻，它几乎就像，但它是在我无意识的情况下出现的。
It's not like saying, "Listen, that's the kind of person I can talk to once a month or something." And I'll just add, in professional settings, not now, but in the distant past, when I was in a very hierarchical structure of-- I'm still in academia, I still teach, but not running research anymore formally.
这并不是说，“听着，我可以每月和这样的人交谈一次之类的。”我只想补充一点，在专业环境中，不是现在，而是在遥远的过去，当我处于一个非常等级化的结构中时——我仍在学术界，我仍在教书，但不再正式进行研究。
I had a couple senior colleagues that I really loved and respected, but they would say or do things that I thought were frankly unethical-
我有几位我非常喜爱和尊敬的资深同事，但他们会说或做一些我认为坦白说不道德的事情——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to other people.
给其他人。
And to me, I felt them as kind of abrasive.
对我来说，我觉得它们有点磨人。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, the physical manifestation of this is I would make it a point to walk past their office door quickly so that they didn't say, "Hey" because I don't want to interact.
所以，这种情况的具体表现是，我会特意快速走过他们的办公室门，这样他们就不会说“嘿”，因为我不想互动。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not familiar with cutting people out of my life.
我不习惯将人们从我的生活中剔除。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm just not familiar with doing that.
我只是不熟悉这样做。
I sort of don't believe in it as a value.
我有点不相信它的价值。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Let's pause for a second, and I'll give you a little overview of where we are.
让我们暂停一下，我将向您简要介绍一下我们目前的情况。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
So we started with this guy who came up with your friend-
所以我们从这个提出你朋友的人开始 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
...
...
and is trying to protect that relationship, because if you continue to be misunderstood in terms of your motives, it would have an impact.
并试图保护这种关系，因为如果你的动机继续被误解，就会产生影响。
Does that sound right?
听起来对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
The only thing, it's a family member.
唯一的一点是，这是一个家庭成员。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Not that it matters, but close family member.
这不重要，重要的是亲密的家庭成员。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Got it.
明白了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
And in exploring this part, asking what it's afraid would happen if it didn't do that.
在探索这一部分时，问问如果不这样做的话，担心会发生什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
So there's this other part that might come out-
所以还有其他部分可能会出现——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
...
...
that would be very judgmental of that family member-
这对家庭成员来说是非常挑剔的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
...
...
and really might have a bad influence on your relationship with that person.
确实可能会对你和那个人的关系产生不良影响。
Does that sound right?
听起来对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's correct.
这是正确的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Okay.
好的。
So we have these two.
所以我们有这两个。
Well, we have you, who's noticing all this, which we should talk more about.
好吧，我们有你，你注意到了这一切，我们应该更多地谈论这一点。
And then we have these two parts that are sort of polarized, but one, the judgmental one, you really don't like.
然后我们有这两部分，有点两极分化，但其中之一，即评判性的部分，你真的不喜欢。
And so you really go to lengths to keep at bay.
所以你真的会竭尽全力阻止。
And you kind of admire this guy, but you also know that he can get in the way at times, too.
你有点钦佩这个人，但你也知道他有时也会妨碍你。
Does all that sound right?
这一切听起来正确吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, that's right, because I'm describing a recent situation where the presence of this titanium teddy bear sorry.
是的，没错，因为我正在描述最近的情况，这只钛泰迪熊的存在令人遗憾。
I don't know why that's amusing to me to say that.
我不知道为什么我这么说很有趣。
The shape of a teddy bear.
泰迪熊的形状。
I'm not seeing a teddy bear in there, but roughly that size and shape.
我在那里没有看到泰迪熊，但大小和形状大致如此。
It creates a protection, but a pressure internally-
它产生了一种保护，但内部却产生了压力——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that's super uncomfortable.
这太不舒服了。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's actually taken me a couple of days to dissipate this.
实际上我花了几天时间才消除这个问题。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I do think, somewhat counter to the way I'm describing it, it doesn't prevent me from saying something.
我确实认为，与我描述的方式有些相反，这并不妨碍我说些什么。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If it's too much, it's almost like that's when words start coming out-
如果太多的话，几乎就像是当话开始出现时——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and they're not kind.
他们并不友善。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's not a real protector in the sense, like it's preventing me from a course of action I don't want to take.
所以从某种意义上说，它并不是一个真正的保护者，就像它阻止我采取我不想采取的行动一样。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It feels like it's kind of extruding all this stuff, and obviously, I'm responsible for my words and actions.
感觉就像是在挤压所有这些东西，显然，我对我的言语和行为负责。
I know that, but it does feel like it creates kind of a-
我知道这一点，但感觉它确实创造了一种——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
It kind of takes over.
它有点接管了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It takes over.
它接管了。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
That's the way to put it.
就是这样说的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
So let's go through that again.
让我们再回顾一遍。
So first of all, I'm so grateful that you're willing to be this vulnerable and expose these parts.
首先，我非常感激你愿意表现得如此脆弱并暴露这些部分。
So this guy, actually, they're both probably what we call firefighters.
所以这个人，实际上，他们可能都是我们所说的消防员。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Very reactive.
非常反应。
There may be some other very vulnerable part that is involved here we haven't heard about.
这里可能还涉及一些我们没有听说过的其他非常脆弱的部分。
But if we continue to work together, I would work to get permission to go to the judgmental guy, too.
但如果我们继续合作，我也会努力获得许可去见那个挑剔的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
And what you would find is he's a protector, too.
你会发现他也是一个保护者。
He's not just a bunch of negative thoughts about people.
他不仅仅是一堆对人的负面想法。
And as I was hearing earlier, you've spent a lot of time in your life trying to be fair to people and to not judge them and to see them.
正如我之前听到的，你一生中花了很多时间试图公平地对待人们，而不是评判他们并看待他们。
What they do is just their behaviors and not who they are.
他们所做的只是他们的行为，而不是他们是谁。
Which is great, but in the process of doing that, sometimes we wind up having to push away the parts that want to judge and want to hate and so on.
这很好，但在这样做的过程中，有时我们最终不得不推开那些想要评判、想要仇恨的部分等等。
And what I find is if we can go there and get to know them, they're just protectors too, and they're young, and when they are able to unload the hate they might carry, or the judgment, they'll transform.
我发现，如果我们能够去那里了解他们，他们也只是保护者，而且他们很年轻，当他们能够卸下可能携带的仇恨或判断时，他们就会转变。
So this is a model of transformation in that sense.
所以从这个意义上来说，这是一个转型模型。
And there are no bad parts.
而且没有坏的部分。
You go to everybody in there-
你去找那里的每个人——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
...
...
regardless of how bad you think they are, and you get curious about them, and you learn how they're trying to protect.
无论你认为他们有多糟糕，你都会对他们感到好奇，并且了解他们如何努力保护。
And then we help them out of their protective roles and help them trust there's a you, who you talked about with Martha, who can run things, that they don't have to do it, because most of them are young.
然后我们帮助他们摆脱保护角色，帮助他们相信有一个你，你和玛莎谈论过的那个人，他可以管理事情，他们不必这样做，因为他们大多数人都很年轻。
And get them to trust this you to handle your family member, rather than they have to take over or try to take over in the way they did.
让他们相信你可以处理你的家庭成员，而不是他们必须以他们的方式接管或试图接管。
Is this making any sense?
这有意义吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it makes total sense.
是的，这完全有道理。
What you said at the beginning, permission to go to the judgmental part, my mind, when I hear that flits to two possibilities.
你一开始所说的，允许进入判断部分，当我听到这会跳到两种可能性时，我的想法。
One's a novel possibility, one's a familiar possibility.
一个是新奇的可能性，一个是熟悉的可能性。
The familiar possibility is if I were to really feel the disappointment that I'm feeling when this pattern in the other person shows up again, because at least I'm very familiar with the pattern.
熟悉的可能性是，当对方的这种模式再次出现时，我是否真的感受到了失望，因为至少我对这种模式非常熟悉。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Then it would fundamentally change the way that I feel about them.
然后它将从根本上改变我对他们的看法。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm trying to hold on to the goodness-
我试图抓住美好——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
The relationship
关系
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in it.
在其中。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
That's right.
没错。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But of course, I want to be very clear, not just for anyone listening, but for myself too, that clearly the protecting role of this titanium teddy bear has created something where the times when things have broken through from my side, they're not kind.
但当然，我想非常清楚地表明，不仅是对任何听众，也是对我自己，这只钛泰迪熊的保护作用显然创造了一些东西，当事情从我这边突破时，它们并不友善。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And/or they're spoken in a way that just is not constructive.
和/或他们的说话方式根本没有建设性。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
So yeah.
所以是的。
And then the second possibility is that I hadn't considered this possibility, but the second possibility is that, were I to let myself feel that disappointment-
那么第二种可能就是我没有考虑过这种可能，但是第二种可能就是，如果我让自己感受到那种失望的话——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that maybe the relationship could persist.
也许这种关系可以持续下去。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've been looking at those things as mutually-
我一直将这些事情视为相互-
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Exclusive
独家
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
exclusive.
独家。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And as I say all this, I also realize that, well, the honest disclaimer is I don't want to give the impression that I don't judge people.
当我说这一切时，我也意识到，诚实的免责声明是我不想给人留下我不评判别人的印象。
I'm human, and I certainly do.
我是人类，我当然也是。
I'm just saying that when there's a relationship that I wish to maintain-
我只是说，当我想维持一段关系时——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I'll go to great lengths to push aside knowledge of my own experience.
我将竭尽全力抛开我自己的经历的知识。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And/or just judgment.
和/或只是判断。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've engaged in this pattern in ways that ended up being extremely destructive to me by completely putting the blinders on to things that were right in front of me.
我采用这种模式的方式最终对我造成了极大的破坏，因为我完全对眼前的事情视而不见。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
And that's what I'm talking about.
这就是我所说的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Consciously.
有意识地。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
That's what I'm talking about.
这就是我要说的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because I adored the person so much-
因为我太爱这个人了——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in other dimensions.
在其他维度。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And, it's not a, for lack of a better word, a holistic way to approach things.
而且，由于缺乏更好的词，这并不是一种处理事物的整体方法。
But I also will say that in contrast to those types of relationships, the relationships where the titanium teddy bear is not required-
但我也要说，与那些类型的关系相反，不需要钛泰迪熊的关系——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
feel to me, so by comparison, but also in the absolute scale, feel to me like the best possible relationships one could have.
对我来说，所以通过比较，而且在绝对范围内，对我来说，感觉就像是一个人可以拥有的最好的关系。
They're like pinch me type of relationships.
他们就像捏我的关系。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like my friendships, some of my relationships to family, like my coworkers and there are others too.
就像我的友谊，我与家人的一些关系，比如我的同事，还有其他一些。
Certainly had romantic relationships like that.
当然有这样的浪漫关系。
My relationship to my dog.
我和我的狗的关系。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As trivial as people might think that seems.
尽管人们可能认为这看起来微不足道。
The contrast of that, where there's no need for this protector part-
相比之下，不需要这个保护部件——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's like the best thing because it feels completely safe and uninhibited.
这就像是最好的事情，因为它感觉完全安全且不受约束。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I never have to worry that I'm going to be taken over from the inside.
我永远不必担心我会被内部接管。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Nor do I ever worry that I'm going to really screw up.
我也不担心我会真的搞砸。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I hope that if I do screw up, they'll tell me.
我希望如果我搞砸了，他们会告诉我。
But it's the complete absence of fear.
但这是完全没有恐惧。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
So let me check in and just see how this has been to discuss and focus and so on.
让我来看看讨论和关注的情况如何等等。
What's it been like to do this process?
完成这个过程感觉如何？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a lot in the sense that I don't like feeling that titanium thing.
从某种意义上说，我不喜欢那种钛金属的感觉。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Teddy bear.
泰迪熊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Teddy bear.
泰迪熊。
It's been very informative, so it's balanced by that.
它的信息量很大，所以它是平衡的。
And maybe that's why I went into a little riff about the pleasant relationships-
也许这就是为什么我会重复一些愉快的关系——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and how-
以及如何-
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
How he feels
他感觉如何
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
outsized positive they are for me.
它们对我来说是巨大的积极影响。
They're like a salve and an elixir for me.
它们对我来说就像是一剂药膏和灵丹妙药。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That maybe I gave myself a little wash over with that because it's pretty uncomfortable.
也许我给了自己一点洗礼，因为这很不舒服。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it's really informative.
但它确实内容丰富。
And it also tells me that the internal family systems work that I did with someone else was an attempt at this, but so very different, which makes sense because-
它还告诉我，我与其他人一起进行的内部家庭系统工作是对此的尝试，但非常不同，这是有道理的，因为-
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
this is your art and science.
这是你的艺术和科学。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, I'm grateful.
所以，我很感激。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it feels good.
是的，感觉很好。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
What I was saying earlier is if we were to pursue it, we could get to the point where the teddy bear guy could unload the feelings he carries that makes it so uncomfortable, and he would transform.
我之前所说的是，如果我们要追求它，我们可以达到这样的地步：泰迪熊家伙可以卸下他所携带的让他如此不舒服的感觉，然后他就会改变。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How would we go about doing that?
我们该如何去做呢？
Just to-
只是为了——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
You would focus on him again.
你会再次把注意力集中在他身上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
We would explore more of what he's protecting.
我们会更多地探索他所保护的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Either we would go to the guy he's trying to keep at bay that would ruin a relationship, or often these parts are protecting something much more vulnerable from your past.
要么我们去找他试图阻止的那个会破坏一段关系的人，要么这些部分通常会保护一些更容易受到你过去伤害的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Some young part that stuck somewhere in the past that has a big issue about being misunderstood in terms of motives or something.
一些年轻的部分停留在过去的某个地方，在动机或其他方面存在被误解的大问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Not that I need clarity on this right now, but it's more that it protects the possibility of a relationship at all.
并不是说我现在需要澄清这一点，但更重要的是它可以保护建立关系的可能性。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah, I get that.
是的，我明白了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think the fear is if I were to look through my lens of truth at what's happened or is happening in the moment, if I were a quote unquote better boundaried person-
我认为恐惧在于，如果我通过真理的镜头来看待已经发生或正在发生的事情，如果我是一个有界限的人——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it'd be done yesterday.
昨天就完成了。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's sort of like a desire to live out a fantasy.
所以这有点像实现幻想的愿望。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Got it.
明白了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If I'm honest.
如果我诚实的话。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
So that would be the part that we would go to, that it protects, that has this fantasy of what a relationship should be or could be.
因此，这将是我们要去的部分，它会保护它，对关系应该是什么或可能是什么有这种幻想。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Who might be stuck somewhere in the past.
谁可能被困在过去的某个地方。
And we would witness, you talked with Martha about compassionate witness.
我们会见证，你和玛莎谈到了富有同情心的见证。
We would witness where he's stuck and what was happening back then.
我们会见证他被困在哪里以及当时发生了什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
And then I would have you go in and get him out of that time period.
然后我会让你进去把他带出那段时间。
Then we'd have him unload the desire for that fantasy that keeps you getting hurt.
然后我们会让他摆脱对让你受伤的幻想的渴望。
And then I would have the teddy bear see it doesn't have to protect him anymore.
然后我会让泰迪熊看到它不再需要保护他了。
And then we would help the teddy bear unload the feelings he carries.
然后我们会帮助泰迪熊释放他所承受的感情。
And then he could relax, and they would all start to trust you, which we should talk about a little bit now.
然后他就可以放松下来，他们都会开始信任你，我们现在应该谈谈这一点。
Who is you who's separate from these others?
与其他人不同的是，你是谁？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For the record, I never owned a teddy bear as a kid.
根据记录，我小时候从未拥有过泰迪熊。
I had a stuffed frog.
我有一只青蛙标本。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
I had a teddy bear.
我有一只泰迪熊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I'm not embarrassed to...
嗯，我并不感到尴尬...
I had a stuffed frog that I loved.
我有一只我很喜欢的毛绒青蛙。
It was Freddy the Frog.
那是青蛙弗雷迪。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I don't know where the teddy bear thing came up, but the shape is so very clear.
所以我不知道泰迪熊的东西是从哪里来的，但形状非常清晰。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
But let me just elaborate on what I was just saying.
但让我详细说明一下我刚才所说的内容。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Because when you separated from him and you found him here, and I asked you how you felt towards him, and you had an attitude about him at first, remember?
因为当你和他分开的时候，你发现他在这里，我问你对他的感觉如何，你一开始对他有一个态度，还记得吗？
And we got that to relax and got curious about him.
我们放松下来并对他感到好奇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Then you started to access more of what I call yourself with a capital S.
然后你开始接触更多我用大写S称为你自己的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it comes through curiosity.
所以它来自好奇心。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Well, it often starts with curiosity.
嗯，这往往始于好奇心。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
And just to backtrack a little bit, so when I would have these clients in the early days starting to work with these parts, like the critic and so on, once I got hip to the fact they weren't what they seemed, and they deserved to be listened to rather than fought with-
稍微回溯一下，所以当我在早期让这些客户开始使用这些部分时，比如评论家等等，一旦我意识到他们并不像他们看起来的那样，他们应该被倾听而不是与之争斗——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
...
...
so I would help the parts that hated them step out, and clients could do that pretty readily.
所以我会帮助那些讨厌他们的部分走出去，客户可以很容易地做到这一点。
And then I would say, "Now how do you feel toward this critic?" And spontaneously people would say, "I'm just curious about why it calls me names all day." Or even would say, "I feel sorry for it that it has to do this.
然后我会说，“现在你对这位批评家感觉如何？”人们会自然而然地说：“我只是好奇为什么它整天骂我。”或者甚至会说：“我为它必须这样做感到遗憾。
I want to help it." And when they were in that state and I would ask, "What part of you is that?
我想帮助它。”当他们处于那种状态时，我会问：“那是你的哪一部分？
That's great.
太好了。
Let's keep that around," they'd say, "That's not a part like these others.
让我们保留它，”他们会说，“这与其他部分不同。
That's me.
那就是我。
That's my essence.
这就是我的本质。
Or that's my self." So I came to call that the Self with a capital S.
或者说，这就是我自己。”所以我把它称为“自我”，大写的“S”。
Forty years later, thousands of people doing this all over the world, turns out that that self is in everybody just beneath the surface of these parts, so that when they open space, you can access it quickly.
四十年后，世界各地成千上万的人这样做，结果发现，每个人的自我就在这些部分的表面之下，所以当他们打开空间时，你可以快速访问它。
It has all these great qualities, what I call the eight C's.
它具有所有这些优秀品质，我称之为 8 个 C。
So curious, but also calm, confident, compassionate, courageous, clear, creative, and connected.
如此好奇，但也冷静、自信、富有同情心、勇敢、清晰、富有创造力和联系。
And that person knows how to heal these parts.
那个人知道如何治愈这些部位。
So once I get somebody in a lot of what we call self, I'll just say, "Okay, what do you want to say to this part?
所以一旦我让某人参与了很多我们称之为自我的事情，我就会说，“好吧，你想对这部分说什么？
And how does it react?
它有何反应？
And now what do you want to do with the part?" I can kind of get out of the way.
现在你想用这个部分做什么？”我可以避开。
And one of the hallmarks of IFS, as opposed to a lot of other therapies, is that it's not so much about me becoming that good attachment figure to these hurting parts of you, these inner children.
与许多其他疗法相反，IFS 的标志之一是，它并不是让我成为对你这些受伤的部分、这些内在的孩子的良好依恋人物。
You become that.
你就变成那样了。
You become the good attachment figure yourself.
你自己就会成为良好的依恋对象。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Or the good inner parent, or the good internal leader for these parts, and they come to trust you as a leader.
或者是优秀的内在父母，或者是这些部分的优秀内部领导者，他们会开始信任你作为领导者。
And then you get into it with your family member, and you just remind the part, "No, I can handle this.
然后你和你的家人一起讨论，你只是提醒那部分，“不，我可以处理这个。
Just let me stay." And now, when that happens with my wife, sometimes, not on a good day-
让我留下来吧。”现在，当这种事发生在我妻子身上时，有时，不是在美好的一天——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
...
...
I can stay in the C word qualities and have a totally different conversation with her than if that protector took over.
我可以保持 C 字品质，与她进行与保护者接管时完全不同的对话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and thank our sponsor, AG1.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。
AG1 is an all-in-one vitamin mineral probiotic drink with adaptogens.
AG1 是一种含有适应原的一体化维生素矿物质益生菌饮料。
I've been taking AG1 daily since 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring this podcast.
自 2012 年以来，我每天都服用 AG1，所以我很高兴他们赞助这个播客。
The reason I started taking AG1, and the reason I still take AG1, is because it is the highest quality and most complete foundational nutritional supplement.
我开始服用 AG1 的原因，以及我仍然服用 AG1 的原因，是因为它是最高品质和最完整的基础营养补充剂。
What that means is that AG1 ensures that you're getting all the necessary vitamins, minerals, and other micronutrients to form a strong foundation for your daily health.
这意味着 AG1 可确保您获得所有必需的维生素、矿物质和其他微量营养素，为您的日常健康奠定坚实的基础。
AG1 also has probiotics and prebiotics that support a healthy gut microbiome.
AG1 还含有支持健康肠道微生物群的益生菌和益生元。
Your gut microbiome consists of trillions of microorganisms that line your digestive tract and impact things such as your immune system status, your metabolic health, your hormone health, and much more.
您的肠道微生物组由数万亿微生物组成，这些微生物排列在您的消化道中，并影响您的免疫系统状态、代谢健康、激素健康等。
So I've consistently found that when I take AG1 daily, my digestion is improved, my immune system is more robust, and my mood and mental focus are at their best.
因此，我一直发现，当我每天服用 AG1 时，我的消化能力得到改善，我的免疫系统更加强大，我的情绪和精神集中度也处于最佳状态。
In fact, if I could take just one supplement, that supplement would be AG1.
事实上，如果我只能服用一种补充剂，那么该补充剂就是 AG1。
If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。
They'll give you five free travel packs plus a year's supply of vitamin D3 K2 with your order of AG1.
您订购 AG1 时，他们将赠送您五个免费旅行包以及一年的维生素 D3 K2。
Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim this special offer.
请再次访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 领取此特别优惠。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Wealthfront.
今天的节目也是由 Wealthfront 为我们带来的。
I've been using Wealthfront for my savings and my investing for nearly a decade, and I absolutely love it.
近十年来，我一直使用 Wealthfront 进行储蓄和投资，我非常喜欢它。
At the start of every year, I set new goals, and one of my goals for 2025 is to focus on saving money.
每年年初，我都会设定新的目标，2025 年的目标之一就是专注于省钱。
Since I have Wealthfront, I'll keep that savings in my Wealthfront cash account, where I'm able to earn 4% annual percentage yield on my deposits, and you can as well.
由于我拥有 Wealthfront，我会将这笔储蓄保留在我的 Wealthfront 现金账户中，在那里我可以通过存款赚取 4% 的年收益率，您也可以。
With Wealthfront, you can earn 4% APY on your cash from partner banks until you're ready to either spend that money or invest it.
通过 Wealthfront，您可以从合作银行获得 4% 的现金年化收益，直到您准备好花掉这些钱或进行投资。
With Wealthfront, you also get free instant withdrawals to eligible accounts every day, even on weekends and holidays.
通过Wealthfront，您还可以每天免费即时提款到符合条件的账户，即使在周末和节假日也是如此。
The 4% APY is not a promotional rate, and there's no limit to what you can deposit and earn.
4% 年利率并非促销利率，您可以存款和赚取的金额没有限制。
And you can even get protection for up to $8 million through FDIC insurance provided through Wealthfront's partner banks.
您甚至可以通过 Wealthfront 合作银行提供的 FDIC 保险获得高达 800 万美元的保护。
Wealthfront gives you free instant withdrawals, where it takes just minutes to transfer your money to eligible external accounts.
Wealthfront 为您提供免费即时提款，只需几分钟即可将您的资金转入符合条件的外部账户。
It also takes just minutes to transfer your cash from the cash account to any of Wealthfront's automated investment accounts when you're ready to invest.
当您准备好投资时，只需几分钟即可将现金从现金账户转移到 Wealthfront 的任何自动投资账户。
There are already a million people using Wealthfront to save more, earn more, and build long-term wealth.
已有一百万人使用 Wealthfront 来储蓄更多、赚取更多并建立长期财富。
Earn 4% APY on your cash today.
今天就用现金赚取 4% 年化收益。
If you'd like to try Wealthfront, go to wealthfront.com/huberman to receive a free $50 bonus with a $500 deposit into your first cash account.
如果您想尝试Wealthfront，请访问wealthfront.com/huberman，在您的第一个现金账户中存入500美元即可获得免费的50美元奖金。
That's wealthfront.com/huberman to get started now.
现在就开始吧：www.realityfront.com/huberman。
This has been a paid testimonial of Wealthfront.
这是 Wealthfront 的付费推荐。
Wealthfront Brokerage isn't a bank.
Wealthfront Brokerage 不是银行。
The APY is subject to change.
APY 可能会发生变化。
For more information, see the episode description.
有关更多信息，请参阅剧集描述。
I'm struck by a couple of things that I think people will be, if I may, wise to think about.
有几件事令我震惊，我认为如果可以的话，人们应该明智地考虑一下这些事情。
One is in the classic psychodynamic or CBT model of therapy, it's clear that the client or patient, sometimes it's called-
一种是经典的心理动力学或 CBT 治疗模型，很明显，客户或患者，有时被称为-
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Patient
病人
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
patient-therapist relationship is one where it takes on certain components that exist in the outside world with other people.
患者与治疗师的关系是一种具有外部世界与其他人存在的某些组成部分的关系。
And it's always slightly bothered me/concerned me that that's the structure.
这总是让我有点困扰/担心，这就是结构。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And as you said, in IFS, internal family systems, you become your own-
正如你所说，在 IFS、内部家庭系统中，你成为你自己的——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
kind of therapist, if you will-
某种治疗师，如果你愿意的话——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Done
完成
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for lack of a better way to put it.
因为缺乏更好的表达方式。
I like that because there's so much discussion nowadays about parenting yourself-
我喜欢这一点，因为现在有很多关于养育自己的讨论——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and this kind of thing, and learning to mother yourself and father yourself, and I actually think there's great value in that.
这种事情，以及学会为自己做母亲、为自己做父亲，我实际上认为这很有价值。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I learned by living alone how to cook for myself-
我独自生活学会了如何自己做饭-
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and clean for myself.
并为自己打扫干净。
These are, I'm mapping to stereotypes here, but also to protect myself-
这些是，我在这里映射到刻板印象，但也是为了保护自己-
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and to organize myself and be very disciplined and actually running a laboratory was a great teaching there because you're basically a single academic parent to all these people.
组织起来，非常自律，实际上管理一个实验室是一个很好的教学，因为你基本上是所有这些人的单身学术家长。
So you have to quickly realize where you lack maternal instincts and where-
所以你必须很快认识到自己哪里缺乏母性本能，哪里——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you may lack or over-emphasize or have hypertrophied paternal instincts.
你可能缺乏或过分强调或有过度的父性本能。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So that was a good forum to see my weaknesses-
所以这是一个很好的论坛来看到我的弱点-
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and hopefully some strengths, too.
希望也有一些优势。
So I like this idea that one can play those roles for oneself.
所以我喜欢这个想法，即一个人可以自己扮演这些角色。
How is IFS typically done if somebody doesn't have access to a therapist who's expert in it?
如果某人无法接触到 IFS 方面的专家治疗师，通常如何进行 IFS？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or is that really the only proper gateway into it?
或者这真的是进入其中的唯一正确途径吗？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
No. So-
不，所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because I'm sitting here with the master, the founder, and I'm very grateful, by the way, for the work we just did.
因为我和大师、创始人坐在一起，顺便说一下，我非常感谢我们刚刚所做的工作。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Good.
很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So thank you.
所以谢谢你。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
You're welcome.
不客气。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It feels good.
感觉很好。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
It was a privilege.
这是一种特权。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Yeah, likewise.
是的，同样。
But most people won't have direct one-on-one access to you.
但大多数人无法直接与您进行一对一的接触。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's very experiential.
所以这是非常有经验的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I imagine in books and courses, people can learn how to do this.
我想人们可以通过书籍和课程学习如何做到这一点。
And by the way, this was not preconceived as a pitch for books and courses.
顺便说一句，这并不是先入为主的书籍和课程宣传。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
No, it's good.
不，这很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I'm wondering, can somebody do this on their own the very first time?
但我想知道，有人可以第一次自己做这件事吗？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's what I want to know.
这就是我想知道的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So for a long time, I resisted trying to take this directly to the public because I learned the hard way that some systems, particularly people with huge amounts of trauma, are quite delicate.
因此，很长一段时间，我一直拒绝尝试将其直接向公众公开，因为我惨痛地了解到，某些系统，尤其是遭受巨大创伤的人，是相当脆弱的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
And if you start going to these, the part we talked about that's vulnerable inside, that has this view of relationships, this kind of idealized view of relationships, of yours, would be what I call an exile that if we were to go to it, and we won't today because it requires a lot of vulnerability, but if we were to, a lot of extreme protectors might come out and then people start to get scared.
如果你开始走向这些，我们谈到的内心脆弱的部分，有这种关系观，这种理想化的关系观，你的，将是我所说的流亡者，如果我们要走向它，我们今天不会，因为它需要很多脆弱性，但如果我们这样做，很多极端保护者可能会出来，然后人们开始感到害怕。
So it took a long time to figure out how we might bring it to the public in a safer way, and so we just put out a workbook for people, and it doesn't involve necessarily going to those places.
所以我们花了很长时间才弄清楚如何以更安全的方式将其带给公众，所以我们只是为人们提供了一本工作手册，并不一定需要去那些地方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
But there's a huge amount you can do just by working the way we started to with these protectors and getting to know them and know that they're not you.
但是，只要按照我们开始与这些保护者一起工作的方式，了解他们并知道他们不是你，你就可以做很多事情。
They're just a part trying their best.
他们只是尽力而为的一部分。
And no, it's not anything negative.
不，这不是什么负面的事情。
That judgmental part you've got such an attitude about or fear of, if you were just to begin getting curious about it and getting to know it a bit, you'd find out that it's a very valuable part that has a lot of discernment, like you said, and wants desperately to keep you from getting in these relationships where you get hurt and gets so judgmental because you don't listen to it.
你对这个批判性的部分抱有这样的态度或恐惧，如果你只是开始对它感到好奇并稍微了解一下它，你会发现这是一个非常有价值的部分，有很多洞察力，就像你说的，并且拼命地阻止你进入这些关系，在这些关系中你会受到伤害，并因为你不听它而变得如此批判。
Do you follow what I'm saying?
你听懂我说的了吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I do.
我愿意。
In fact, something pops to mind.
事实上，有些事情突然浮现在脑海中。
Maybe I could just ask you about it.
也许我可以问问你。
My mind's right on what you're saying, but something occurred to me as you said it Which is, if I were to, for instance, really feel the feeling of like, "Hey, that's really screwed up," or like actually feel the disappointment or judgment that this titanium teddy bear is trying to protect against, I realize it leads to a lot of role confusion and identity confusion.
我的想法是正确的，但当你说的时候，我突然想到了一些事情，例如，如果我真的感受到了这样的感觉，“嘿，那真是搞砸了”，或者实际上感受到了这只钛泰迪熊试图防止的失望或判断，我意识到这会导致很多角色混乱和身份混乱。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'll just be very blunt.
我会非常直言不讳。
It's probably not the best thing to do on a podcast, but I'm going to do it anyway, which is, this is how I feel about modern politics.
这可能不是在播客上做的最好的事情，但无论如何我都会这样做，也就是说，这就是我对现代政治的感受。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see things on the left-
我看到左边的东西——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that make sense to me, and things that are, to me, just absolutely ludicrous, inappropriate-
对我来说有意义的事情，以及对我来说绝对可笑、不合适的事情——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Me too, yeah
我也是，是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and offensive, and just badly wrong.
而且令人反感，而且是严重错误的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see things on the right that make a ton of sense to me, and also things that are inappropriate, offensive, and wrong.
我看到右边的东西对我来说很有意义，但也有不恰当的、冒犯性的和错误的东西。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And as a consequence, I'm trying to see the goodness in both sides-
因此，我试图看到双方的优点——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and just kind of create this kind of Swiss cheese model of the world.
并创造了这种瑞士奶酪世界模型。
I'm talking about politics because it's just simpler to do, and people at least know the groups we're talking about.
我谈论政治是因为这样做更简单，而且人们至少知道我们正在谈论的群体。
But then it leaves me in a place of no affiliation.
但随后它让我处于一个没有归属感的地方。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm then between one of two stances.
然后我就处于两种立场之一。
One of just kind of standing there and being like, "Yeah.
一种只是站在那里，然后说：“是的。
Well, there's no real position in the middle that is an official position in the middle." But it also makes me just want to put up the middle finger to both and say, "I'm a double hater." But of course, I'm an adult and a citizen who cares about people in the country.
嗯，中间没有真正的位置是官方的中间位置。”但这也让我只想对两人竖起中指并说：“我是一个双重仇恨者。”但当然，我是一个成年人和一个关心这个国家人民的公民。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so I feel like to be an adult, I can't opt out, but I feel unaffiliated.
所以我觉得自己想成为一个成年人，我无法选择退出，但我感到不依附。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I feel like there's no option for me.
我觉得我别无选择。
And this maps pretty well to, I think, the identity and role confusion-
我认为这很好地反映了身份和角色的混乱——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that I feel when I place my, again, understanding the truth is a complicated thing, but my judgment on things and people.
当我再次理解真相时，我感到这是一件复杂的事情，但我对事物和人的判断却是一件复杂的事情。
It's like, well, then, what is my role as a son?
就好像，那么，作为儿子，我的角色是什么？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What is my role as a partner?
作为合作伙伴，我的角色是什么？
What is my role if this thing is true?
如果这件事是真的，我的角色是什么？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so it's a way I'm realizing of protecting the simplicity of a role.
所以这是我意识到保护角色简单性的一种方式。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I did grow up in a home where the roles were like, you're a son, you do certain things.
我确实是在一个家庭中长大的，那里的角色就像，你是一个儿子，你会做某些事情。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I also have a rebellious side to me.
但我也有叛逆的一面。
So the role confusion is something that I imagine a lot of people are familiar with.
所以我想很多人都熟悉角色混乱。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I also believe that when you just really say, "Well, they did something bad, therefore all bad, therefore I'm part of the opposite team."
我也相信，当你真的说：“好吧，他们做了一些坏事，因此都是坏事，因此我是反对派的一员。”
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That, to me, is an unlived life.
对我来说，那是一种未曾经历过的生活。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I see a lot of people do it, and actually-
但我看到很多人这样做，而且实际上——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
sometimes I'm envious of people that have that ability.
有时候我很羡慕有这种能力的人。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because they seem so unconflicted.
因为他们看起来很不冲突。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's a tough thing to be a thinking, feeling person-
所以，成为一个有思想、有感情的人是一件很难的事情——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
It is
它是
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
at the level of nuance.
在细微差别的层面上。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It kind of sucks sometimes.
有时有点糟糕。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd rather do that than be a double hater or just cleanly opt in.
我宁愿这样做，也不愿成为双重仇恨者或干脆选择加入。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Does that make sense?
这有道理吗？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Totally makes sense.
完全有道理。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
And what I'm hearing is that when you're looking at a person or a political party or issue in the world, you'll hear from these conflicted parts.
我听到的是，当你观察世界上的一个人、一个政党或一个问题时，你会听到这些相互冲突的部分的声音。
They each have perspective, just like our country now.
他们各有各的观点，就像我们现在的国家一样。
Hears from these conflicted parts.
听到这些冲突部分的声音。
But you don't have a lot of access to what I'm calling self in those contexts.
但在这些情况下，你没有太多机会接触到我所说的自我。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Because one of the C words is clarity.
因为 C 词之一是清晰度。
So again, as I was listening to you and Martha, you were talking about how there are times where you just have this sense in your body of what's right or what's true.
再说一次，当我听你和玛莎讲话时，你正在谈论有时你的身体里有这种感觉，什么是正确的或什么是真实的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
That's what I'm calling self.
这就是我所说的自我。
Self has that clarity, and self sees injustice.
自我有那种清晰度，自我看到不公正。
Some of those C words are courage, confidence, and clarity.
其中一些 C 词是勇气、自信和清晰。
So there's an impulse also to act to correct imbalance, to correct injustice, too.
因此，人们也有一种采取行动纠正不平衡、纠正不公正的冲动。
So self isn't a kind of passive witness as it is in a lot of spiritual traditions in IFS.
因此，自我并不是一种被动的见证者，就像 IFS 的许多精神传统中那样。
It's an active inner leader.
这是一个积极的内部领导者。
It's an active external leader.
这是一个积极的外部领导者。
And too often, our actions are driven by these protective parts, and that's true in our politics now, too.
很多时候，我们的行动是由这些保护性部分驱动的，现在我们的政治也是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
So one of my goals is to try to bring more self-leadership to the world, to all these conflicts.
因此，我的目标之一就是努力为世界、所有这些冲突带来更多的自我领导力。
But to do that, people have to unburden.
但要做到这一点，人们必须卸下负担。
They have to release these extreme beliefs and emotions they got from their traumas in the past.
他们必须释放从过去的创伤中获得的极端信念和情绪。
We have a concept we call legacy burdens.
我们有一个称为遗留负担的概念。
So many people have inherited these extreme beliefs and emotions that came down through their ancestors and drive their parts, drive their extremes.
许多人继承了祖先传下来的极端信念和情感，驱动着他们的部分、驱动着他们的极端。
And many conflicts in the world are driven by these legacy burdens.
世界上许多冲突都是由这些遗留负担引发的。
And we've gotten good at helping people unload these things.
我们已经很擅长帮助人们卸下这些东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, we've seen this in the Middle East recently.
是的，我们最近在中东看到了这一点。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Totally.
完全可以。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
We're doing a lot of work in the Middle East, so we have training programs there.
我们在中东做了很多工作，所以我们在那里有培训项目。
And one of my visions is to have large-scale legacy unburdenings, where large groups of people come together, and we help them unload the Holocaust legacy burdens on the one side and the 1941 legacy burdens on the Palestinian side.
我的愿景之一是进行大规模的遗产负担，让大批人聚集在一起，我们帮助他们一方面卸下大屠杀遗产负担，另一方面帮助巴勒斯坦一方卸下 1941 年遗产负担。
And have more self accessible to each side.
并让双方有更多的自我接触。
And when we do couples therapy, we do other kinds of negotiated conflict.
当我们进行夫妻治疗时，我们会进行其他类型的谈判冲突。
If people's parts start getting into it, you just say, "Timeout." You sort of did this on your own with your family member.
如果人们的部分开始陷入困境，你只需说“暂停”。你和你的家人一起做了这件事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Just say, "Timeout.
只需说：“超时。
I want both of you to go inside, find the parts that have been doing the speaking Don't come back until you can speak for them, but not from them.
我希望你们俩都进去，找到一直在说话的部分，直到你可以为他们说话，但不能从他们那里说话，然后才回来。
And come back in these C-word qualities, in that state of psy.
然后以这些 C 字的品质，在那种精神状态中回来。
If we can hold people in that, it's really easy to get out of the conflict.
如果我们能够让人们陷入其中，那么就很容易摆脱冲突。
If their protectors are going at it all the time, conflicts never change.
如果他们的保护者一直在努力，冲突就永远不会改变。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you think that people who have the reflex or the ability to kind of somaticize a bit...
你认为那些有反射能力或有能力将身体化的人吗？
I don't think of myself as somebody who's psychosomatic.
我不认为自己是一个有心身问题的人。
I don't have stomach aches and headaches and stuff unless I caught a virus.
除非感染了病毒，否则我不会出现胃痛、头痛之类的症状。
But I can feel where certain things are in my body-
但我能感觉到我身体里的某些东西——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
pretty quickly-
很快-
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and always have.
并且一直如此。
Do you think that IFS lends itself better to people who feel things somatically versus people that are really cognitive and in their head?
你认为 IFS 是否更适合那些通过身体感受事物的人，而不是那些真正通过头脑进行认知的人？
Because I have that component, too.
因为我也有这个组件。
I can actually feel the switch.
我确实能感觉到这个开关。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'll go into a narrative, and then-
我先讲一个故事，然后——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I start to see the structure up here.
我开始看到这里的结构。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And-
还有——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah, that happened several times when we were working together.
是的，我们一起工作时，这样的事情发生过好几次。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
I would have you stay with something, and then the narrator part would kick in.
我会让你留下来做点什么，然后旁白部分就会开始。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
And then I would try to refocus you.
然后我会尝试重新集中你的注意力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
But I lived in Boston for 10 years, so I worked with lots of cognitive people who didn't know their bodies, who just were in that rat race to try and get tenure, and so on.
但我在波士顿住了 10 年，所以我和很多有认知能力的人一起工作，他们不了解自己的身体，只是在激烈的竞争中试图获得终身职位，等等。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Been there.
去过那里。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yes.
是的。
Me too.
我也是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Tenure's nice, but one should tend to their emotional selves-
终身教职很好，但一个人应该照顾自己的情感——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Exactly
正是如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
while they're pursuing it.
当他们在追求它的时候。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
But just to answer your question, they can do it, but we first have to start with that thinking part-
但只是为了回答你的问题，他们可以做到，但我们首先必须从思考部分开始——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
...
...
and get it on board, and get it to step out, and to stay out long enough that they can feel their bodies.
然后让它上船，让它走出去，并在外面停留足够长的时间，让他们能够感觉到自己的身体。
So yeah.
所以是的。
It lends itself to anybody, but with people like that, it takes a while for that thinking part to trust that it's safe to let them into their bodies.
它适合任何人，但对于这样的人，思考部分需要一段时间才能相信让他们进入自己的身体是安全的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So if we were to just step back for a moment and do sort of a top contour summary of the process.
因此，如果我们退后一步，对整个过程做一个概要总结。
Someone brings forward a memory, a recent or a distant memory of something that made them feel not good, and you try and localize some sensation in the body.
有人提出了一段记忆，最近或遥远的记忆，让他们感觉不好，然后你尝试定位身体中的某些感觉。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Get a sense of its location.
了解它的位置。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Let me pause there.
让我暂停一下。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
I'll tell you why.
我会告诉你原因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Because if they find it in their body-
因为如果他们在自己的体内发现了它——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
...
...
and they direct the question there, and they wait for the answer to come from there-
他们在那里提出问题，然后等待答案——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
...
...
they're less likely to be in their head.
他们不太可能在他们的头脑中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
...
...
it sort of short-circuits that thinking part.
它有点短路了思考部分。
And so many people come to therapy, and that thinking part thinks it's supposed to do the therapy.
很多人来接受治疗，思考部分认为它应该进行治疗。
It's CBT or whatever.
这是 CBT 或其他什么。
Even a lot of the more psychodynamic therapies, the thinking part is really trying to explain why they feel stuff.
即使是很多更多的心理动力学疗法，思考部分实际上是在试图解释为什么他们有这种感觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
So this is getting them out of that and getting them to actually listen inside into what they think is their body, but it's really these parts that live down there-
所以这让他们摆脱了困境，让他们真正倾听他们认为是他们身体的内部，但实际上这些部分生活在那里 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
...
...
that they haven't had access to because the thinking part is running things so much.
他们还没有机会接触到这些东西，因为思考的部分太多了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
And then one places some attention from the stance of curiosity to like, "What's there?
然后人们会出于好奇的态度而关注，“那儿有什么？
What's it trying to say?"
它想表达什么？”
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then you start to reveal the underlying layers of what's it protecting.
然后你开始揭示它所保护的底层内容。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What are those things that are protective trying to say?
那些保护性的言论到底想表达什么？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It's not even you're trying to reveal.
甚至你也不想透露。
It's just that you're asking these questions, and the answers start coming.
只是当你提出这些问题时，答案就开始出现。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
Oh, I love this because I'm a big believer in seeding the unconscious mind and then letting things surface, either in sleep or in meditative states or...
哦，我喜欢这个，因为我坚信在潜意识中播种，然后让事情浮出水面，无论是在睡眠中还是在冥想状态中，或者......
Has internal family systems been combined with some of the therapies that are now getting tested, still in clinical trial stage, around psychedelics?
内部家庭系统是否与一些目前正在测试、仍处于临床试验阶段的迷幻药疗法相结合？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
In fact, two days ago, we just completed a IFS and ketamine retreat.
事实上，两天前，我们刚刚完成了 IFS 和氯胺酮静修。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, wow.
哦，哇。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
And we're doing it more and more.
我们正在越来越多地这样做。
Like I said, I'm trying to bring this more out of the psychotherapy world.
就像我说的，我正在努力将这一点更多地带出心理治疗世界。
So we invited 32 leaders to come, of various kinds, and had three days where they do ketamine and then do IFS.
因此，我们邀请了 32 位不同类型的领导者，让他们用三天时间进行氯胺酮治疗，然后进行 IFS。
The nice thing about psychedelics is it puts those manager parts to sleep somehow a lot of the time.
迷幻药的好处在于，它在很多时候让那些经理部分以某种方式进入睡眠状态。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I've been open about the fact, and I always have to provide the disclaimer.
我一直对这一事实持开放态度，而且我总是必须提供免责声明。
I don't just say this to protect me, I say this to protect listeners, that I do think young people should avoid psychedelics.
我这样说不仅是为了保护我自己，也是为了保护听众，我确实认为年轻人应该避免迷幻剂。
The brain is already in a psychedelic state.
大脑已经处于一种迷幻状态。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
I do, too.
我也是。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The amount of plasticity, and this is really tremendous, and this is coming from somebody who regrets it, but I did psychedelics recreationally as a kid.
可塑性很大，这确实是巨大的，这是来自一个后悔的人，但我小时候玩迷幻药只是为了娱乐。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Me too.
我也是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I regret it.
我很后悔。
I returned to them later in a clinical setting and derived a lot of benefit, I think, from them.
后来我在临床环境中回到了他们，我认为从他们那里得到了很多好处。
Namely, high-dose psilocybin and MDMA.
即高剂量裸盖菇素和摇头丸。
But both of those are still very much illegal.
但这两者仍然非常非法。
You can get into a lot of trouble for-
你可能会遇到很多麻烦——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
taking them and/or certainly for selling them.
拿走它们和/或当然是为了出售它们。
So, that's the cautionary note there.
所以，这就是警告。
And the clinical trials are really impressive, in my opinion.
在我看来，临床试验确实令人印象深刻。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Impressive.
令人印象深刻。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Spectacularly impressive, especially for MDMA and for the treatment of PTSD.
令人印象深刻，尤其是对于 MDMA 和 PTSD 的治疗。
But the FDA, this last year, did not approve MDMA as a treatment for PTSD.
但 FDA 去年并未批准 MDMA 作为 PTSD 的治疗方法。
I think going forward in the new administration, it's likely that it will get approved.
我认为在新政府的领导下，它很可能会获得批准。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Who knows?
谁知道？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Who knows?
谁知道？
So anyway, that's a bunch of pseudo legalese jargon, but it's sincere.
无论如何，这是一堆伪法律术语，但它是真诚的。
If I were an 18 or 19-year-old person, or 30-year-old person listening to a conversation about psychedelics and how they can be helpful, I would want to also know that there are instances where people take them and they don't have the appropriate guidance in-
如果我是一个 18 岁或 19 岁的人，或者 30 岁的人，正在听一场关于迷幻药及其如何提供帮助的对话，我还想知道，在某些情况下，人们服用了迷幻药，但他们没有得到适当的指导——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Totally
完全
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and through it and out of it, and it leads to serious problems.
穿过它又走出它，它会导致严重的问题。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
And that's-
那就是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So this is a real thing that we're talking about
所以这是我们正在谈论的真实的事情
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
...
...
that's why these ketamine clinics where they just hand them the drugs and-
这就是为什么这些氯胺酮诊所只给他们药物，然后——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It's terrible
太可怕了
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
...
...
your medicine and just leave them on their own is scary to me.
你的药却让它们自行其是，这让我感到害怕。
I'm proud to say that IFS has been adopted as one of the primary models for psychedelics now.
我很自豪地说，IFS 现在已被采用为迷幻药的主要模型之一。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Because it's a really nice fit.
因为它真的非常合适。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
And as I was saying earlier, what I see happening often, not always, is these manager parts go offline, and that releases a lot of self.
正如我之前所说，我经常看到（但并非总是）发生的情况是这些经理部分离线，这释放了很多自我。
So you start to just feel those C word qualities emerging.
所以你开始感觉到那些 C 字品质正在显现。
And that's a big invitation to all these exiled parts to come and get attention.
这对所有这些被流放的部分来说是一个巨大的邀请，让他们前来获得关注。
And so as people come out of the ketamine experience, I can work with them for 15 minutes and do something that would take maybe five sessions, because they can get access to parts that they couldn't get, or it would take a long time to convince their protectors to let us go to.
因此，当人们从氯胺酮体验中恢复过来时，我可以与他们一起工作 15 分钟，并做一些可能需要五次会议的事情，因为他们可以获得他们无法获得的部分，或者需要很长时间才能说服他们的保护者让我们去。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
And we can unburden those exiles and then bring back their protectors, and so I love it.
我们可以减轻那些流亡者的负担，然后带回他们的保护者，所以我喜欢它。
And ketamine's the legal one, so that's why we do it.
氯胺酮是合法的，所以这就是我们这样做的原因。
And the other nice thing, and I don't know as a scientist how much you would go with this, but ketamine, again, because it opens the door with these protectors, you can also taste what I call the big self.
另一件好事，我不知道作为一名科学家你会对此有多少兴趣，但是氯胺酮，再次，因为它用这些保护器打开了大门，你也可以尝到我所说的大自我。
You taste this, what they call non-dual state, that can be quite blissful.
你尝到这个，他们称之为非二元状态，那会是相当幸福的。
And some people go, "God." And then as you come back, you have this sense of, I'm much more than this little body and this little ego, that there is something much bigger.
有些人会说“上帝”。然后当你回来时，你会感觉到，我不仅仅是这个小小的身体和这个小小的自我，还有更大的东西。
And that's why they're using it with end of life and why it, and psilocybin, has such a big impact on depression and because it sort of lifts you out of this little box your protectors have you in, to know that there's something much more, so.
这就是为什么他们在临终时使用它，以及为什么它和裸盖菇素对抑郁症有如此大的影响，因为它可以让你脱离你的保护者让你进入的这个小盒子，让你知道还有更多的东西，所以。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
I've never tried ketamine.
我从未尝试过氯胺酮。
A few years ago, and I've talked about this publicly as well, I started developing a pretty deep relationship to spirituality and God, and mostly through the path of giving up control.
几年前，我也公开谈论过这一点，我开始与灵性和上帝建立相当深厚的关系，而且主要是通过放弃控制的方式。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, there's just certain...
我的意思是，有一点是确定的...
Breaking news, folks, you can't control everything.
突发新闻，伙计们，你无法控制一切。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can control certain things, but most things, no. And the way you describe ketamine's very interesting because as a dissociative anesthetic, it works in such a fundamentally different way than, say, MDMA-
你可以控制某些事情，但大多数事情却不能。你描述氯胺酮的方式非常有趣，因为作为一种解离麻醉剂，它的作用方式与 MDMA 等药物根本不同——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which is an empathogen-
这是一种共情原——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which makes people feel so much more.
这让人们感触良多。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I sort of half joke that aside from the safety, legality stuff, the concern I have about MDMA is that if one is not in the eye mask-
我半开玩笑地说，除了安全性、合法性之外，我对 MDMA 的担忧是，如果眼罩中没有 MDMA——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
if you don't have somebody guiding you through it and taking-
如果你没有人指导你完成它并采取-
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
some notes, if you listen to a piece of jazz or classical music or your favorite rock and roll album, or you're there with your dog or cat or plants, you can spend the entire four hours bonding with the plant.
需要注意的是，如果你听一首爵士乐或古典音乐或你最喜欢的摇滚专辑，或者你和你的狗或猫或植物在一起，你可以花整整四个小时与植物建立联系。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're not going to run off and get married to a plant.
你不会逃跑并与植物结婚。
You're not going to try and fornicate with a plant.
你不会尝试与植物通奸。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One hopes .
一个希望。
But it's a very precious but very labile situation.
但这是一个非常宝贵但又非常不稳定的情况。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Totally agree.
完全同意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because it's such a strong empathogen that whatever you direct your attention to-
因为它是一种如此强大的共情剂，无论你将注意力集中在什么地方——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
internal or external, is going to hypertrophy.
内或外，都是要肥大的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So just have to be really careful.
所以一定要非常小心。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Totally agree.
完全同意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And given that the neurotoxicity issues seem worked out and that if it's actually MDMA and isn't other things...
鉴于神经毒性问题似乎已经解决，并且如果它实际上是摇头丸而不是其他东西......
By the way, the big study that showed neurotoxicity of MDMA-
顺便说一下，一项表明 MDMA 神经毒性的大型研究 -
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in non-human primates-
在非人类灵长类动物中——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
turned out they were injecting methamphetamine.
原来他们注射的是冰毒。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
What?
什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
That paper was retracted.
那篇论文被撤回了。
It was published in "Science." We'll provide a link to the paper and the retraction.
它发表在《科学》杂志上。我们将提供论文和撤回的链接。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
I had no idea.
我不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The retraction was not as publicized.
撤回的消息并未像公开的那样公开。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Methylenedioxymethamphetamine, MDMA, has not been shown to be neurotoxic, provided that's what people are taking.
亚甲二氧基甲基苯丙胺（MDMA）尚未被证明具有神经毒性，前提是人们服用的是这种物质。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And not taking some combination of other things.
并且不采取其他事物的某种组合。
Yeah.
是的。
It's a real tragedy the way that retractions don't get nearly the kind of popular press coverage that-
这是一个真正的悲剧，因为撤稿并没有得到大众媒体的报道——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
initial studies do.
初步研究确实如此。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Regardless of whether or not the initial study was positive or negative.
无论最初的研究是积极的还是消极的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In any case, I do believe there are other routes to calming down the forebrain-
无论如何，我确实相信还有其他方法可以让前脑平静下来——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the context of doing this kind of work that-
在进行此类工作的背景下——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I'd just like your thoughts on.
我只是想听听你的想法。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When I first wake up in the morning-
当我早上第一次醒来时——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I'm in kind of a liminal state.
我正处于一种阈限状态。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the thing that I don't want to think about comes to my brain.
但我的脑子里却浮现出了我不愿去想的事情。
I can't avoid it.
我无法避免它。
It's like the protectors are not available.
就好像保护器不可用一样。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're still asleep.
他们还在睡觉。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So that seems valuable.
所以这看起来很有价值。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've tried recently to keep my eyes closed.
我最近试着闭上眼睛。
Sometimes I'll get up and use the bathroom, but keep my eyes closed, stay in that still state, and explore the contours of that thing.
有时我会起身去洗手间，但闭上眼睛，保持静止状态，探索那个东西的轮廓。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Provided it's done safely and not anywhere near water, cyclic hyperventilation breathwork-
如果它是安全完成的并且不在靠近水的任何地方，循环过度换气呼吸-
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
done for a few minutes or cycles.
完成几分钟或一个周期。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
we think can change the brain activity so the forebrain kind of comes off of line a bit, so to speak.
我们认为可以改变大脑活动，因此前脑有点脱节，可以这么说。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
All these things just-
所有这些事情只是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do those-
做那些——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
...
...
put managers to sleep.
让经理们睡着了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Put managers to sleep.
让经理们睡觉。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Like when you go to sleep, your managers go to sleep.
就像当你睡觉时，你的经理也会睡觉一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
And then you have these weird dreams, and that's because your exiles have access to your mind now.
然后你就会做这些奇怪的梦，那是因为你的流放者现在可以进入你的思想了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
And they're trying to give you signals about what they want.
他们试图向你发出他们想要什么的信号。
The other thing I'll say about psychedelics and the breathing too, is that as your managers go to sleep and your exiles start coming in, it can seem really terrifying because these parts are stuck in horrible places often with a lot of terror.
关于迷幻剂和呼吸，我要说的另一件事是，当你的经理入睡，你的流亡者开始进来时，这看起来真的很可怕，因为这些部分经常被困在可怕的地方，充满了很多恐惧。
And so what's called bad trips is them trying to get attention.
所以所谓的糟糕旅行就是他们试图引起注意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
So they'll come in and they'll totally take over, and you'll look like you're having a panic attack.
所以他们会进来，他们会完全接管，你会看起来像是惊恐发作了。
But what we've learned, and this happened a few times last week, is instead of thinking of it as a panic attack or a bad trip, to welcome it.
但我们学到的是，上周发生过几次这种情况，不要将其视为恐慌发作或一次糟糕的旅行，而是要欢迎它。
Here's a part that needs a lot of attention.
这是需要高度关注的部分。
It's taken over entirely.
它完全被接管了。
But if I were to say, "Okay, Andrew, I see you're really scared, but how do you feel toward this really scared part that's here now?" And I could get you to say, "Well, I feel sorry for it," then I would have you start to get to know it and work with it and comfort it, rather than have a panic attack.
但如果我说：“好吧，安德鲁，我知道你真的很害怕，但是你对现在这个真正害怕的部分感觉如何？”我可以让你说，“好吧，我对此感到抱歉”，然后我会让你开始了解它，与它合作并安慰它，而不是惊恐发作。
You would access calm and those C words.
你会获得平静和那些C词。
And then it becomes a hugely useful healing of something that's in you that's stuck in a terrified place.
然后它就成为一种非常有用的治疗方法，可以治愈你内心深处被困在恐惧中的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。
Last year I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.
去年，在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我成为了一名功能成员。
Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health.
Function 提供 100 多项高级实验室测试，为您提供整个身体健康状况的关键快照。
This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more.
此快照为您提供有关心脏健康、激素健康、免疫功能、营养水平等方面的见解。
They've also recently added tests for toxins, such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics, and tests for PFAS, or forever chemicals.
他们最近还增加了毒素测试，例如有害塑料中的 BPA 暴露，以及 PFAS 或永久化学物质的测试。
Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas.
Function 不仅提供对您的身心健康至关重要的 100 多种生物标记物的测试，而且还分析这些结果并提供相关领域专家的顶级医生的见解。
For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood.
例如，在我第一次使用 Function 进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量升高。
Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification.
功能不仅帮助我发现了这一点，还为我提供了如何最好地降低汞含量的见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼摄入量，我一直在吃大量金枪鱼，同时还努力多吃绿叶蔬菜并补充 NAC、N-乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒。
And I should say, by taking a second Function test, that approach worked.
我应该说，通过进行第二次功能测试，这种方法奏效了。
Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important.
全面的血液检测至关重要。
There are so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test.
有很多与您的心理和身体健康相关的事情只能通过血液检查来检测。
The problem is blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated.
问题是血液检测一直非常昂贵且复杂。
In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost.
相比之下，Function 的简单性和成本水平给我留下了深刻的印象。
It is very affordable.
这是非常实惠的。
As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.
因此，我决定加入他们的科学顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。
If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Function，可以访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。
Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman Podcast listeners.
Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等候名单，但他们正在为 Huberman 播客听众提供早期访问服务。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.
同样，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。
What is so striking to me is that, and Martha taught me this practice of when we think about the things that create shame for ourselves, if we're able to go up and really look at those and-
让我印象深刻的是，玛莎教给我这种做法，当我们思考那些让自己感到羞耻的事情时，如果我们能够走上前去真正地审视这些事情，并且——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
own them not from the perspective of I'm proud of them, but own them as in us and not of us.
拥有它们不是出于我为它们感到骄傲的角度，而是拥有它们是因为我们拥有它们，而不是我们。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That it's incredibly freeing.
这是令人难以置信的自由。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And indeed, it is so freeing, right?
事实上，它是如此自由，对吧？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If there were a secret to life, it would at least include that.
如果生命有什么秘密的话，至少应该包括这一点。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because-
因为——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Let me riff off of that for a second.
让我简单说一下。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, please.
是的，请。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Just as an example, I've done workshops where I have people work with their racism.
举个例子，我举办过一些研讨会，让人们处理种族主义问题。
You're speaking of something very shameful.
你说的是一件非常可耻的事情。
And a lot of people say, "I'm not a racist.
很多人说：“我不是种族主义者。
I don't have any racism." But if I really convince them to look inside and check, they'll find there's a little part in there that does spout racist things when they meet somebody of a different skin color.
我没有任何种族主义。”但如果我真的说服他们审视内心并进行检查，他们会发现其中有一个小部分，当他们遇到不同肤色的人时，会喷出种族主义言论。
It has these white supremacy beliefs, and they're really ashamed of it.
它有这些白人至上的信念，他们真的为此感到羞耻。
So if I were to have you focus on that racist voice in there, we would have to get a lot of the parts that are ashamed of it to step out, and then I would have you get curious about it rather than ashamed of it, and ask it about where it picked up these beliefs.
因此，如果我要让你关注那里的种族主义声音，我们就必须让很多为此感到羞耻的部分走出来，然后我会让你对它感到好奇，而不是对它感到羞耻，并询问它从哪里获得了这些信念。
And it could tell you.
它可以告诉你。
And then I would ask, "Do you like having to carry this racist stuff?" Usually, they'll say no. If it's ready to unload it, we can just unload it.
然后我会问：“你喜欢背负这些种族主义的东西吗？”通常，他们会说不。如果已经准备好卸载了，我们就可以卸载它了。
So one of the key things to know is these parts are not the burdens they carry.
因此，要知道的关键事情之一是这些部分并不是它们所承载的负担。
They're all good.
他们都很好。
The little guy who's got the racist rant is a part that got stuck with these beliefs.
那些发出种族主义咆哮的小家伙就是被这些信念所束缚的一部分。
But when he releases those beliefs, he transforms into being a good.
但当他释放这些信念时，他就会变成一个好人。
And the mistake our culture makes, the mistake that most psychotherapies make, is to assume that he is that racist rant and to try to exile him.
我们的文化所犯的错误，大多数心理治疗所犯的错误，就是假设他是种族主义者，并试图驱逐他。
But it's a different way of understanding even very seemingly evil people, that they're dominated by these protectors, and they're so afraid of their exiles And they relate inside in the same way they relate outside.
但这是一种不同的理解方式，即使是看似邪恶的人，他们也被这些保护者所控制，他们非常害怕他们的流放者，他们内部的联系方式与外部的联系方式相同。
So if they hate parts of themselves, they'll hate people who resemble those parts of them.
因此，如果他们讨厌自己的某些部分，他们就会讨厌与他们这些部分相似的人。
They'll try to dominate those people.
他们会试图统治那些人。
Do you follow what I'm saying?
你听懂我说的了吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, and I'd like to really go into this a bit because we hear all the time that when we're upset about something, it's something in ourselves that we're really upset about.
是的，我真的很想深入探讨一下这个问题，因为我们总是听说，当我们对某件事感到不安时，我们真正对自己感到不安。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
And for me, that isn't always true, but that's sometimes true.
对我来说，这并不总是正确的，但有时确实如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So if I'm upset about the intolerance of good ideas from people in opposite groups-
因此，如果我对不容忍来自相反群体的人的好想法感到不安——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of each other's good ideas, this logic would say that I'm really just disapproving of that aspect of myself that is black and white judgmental.
彼此的好主意，这种逻辑会说，我真的只是不赞成自己非黑即白的判断力。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Which we already established.
我们已经建立了这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got me.
明白我了。
Then again, you're the therapist.
话又说回来，你是治疗师。
Right.
正确的。
So is this always true?
那么这总是正确的吗？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Not always.
并非总是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
But a lot of the time.
但很多时候。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
So if you can come to have compassion for that judgmental part of you and-
因此，如果你能够对自己的批判性部分抱有同情心，并且——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
...
...
not be embattled with it and actually see it as desperately trying to help you be more discerning, and help it unburden and get out of this role that it's in.
不要与它纠缠，实际上将其视为拼命地试图帮助你变得更有洞察力，并帮助它减轻负担并摆脱它所扮演的角色。
Because in the role that it's in, it can be destructive.
因为它所扮演的角色可能具有破坏性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
We're not trying to minimize that or say...
我们并不是想最小化这一点或者说……
When I say all parts are, there are no bad parts, there are no bad parts, but they can get into very destructive roles, and they can carry these burdens from the past that can drive them to be harmful.
当我说所有部分都是时，没有坏的部分，没有坏的部分，但是它们可以扮演非常具有破坏性的角色，并且它们可以承受过去的这些负担，这些负担可以使它们变得有害。
But part of my work is to help all that change.
但我工作的一部分就是帮助所有这些改变。
And, so if you were to start a new relationship with that judgmental part of you, then you would see past the judgmental parts of other people, and you could see the exiles that drive those protectors.
而且，因此，如果你要与自己的评判部分开始一种新的关系，那么你就会看穿其他人的评判部分，并且你可以看到驱使这些保护者的流放者。
And you would have compassion for them.
你会对他们产生同情心。
It wouldn't mean you wouldn't stop them or stand up to them, but you would do it with compassion rather than from these hateful protectors.
这并不意味着你不会阻止他们或反抗他们，但你会带着同情心而不是来自这些可恨的保护者。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think it's important that people hear that.
我认为让人们听到这一点很重要。
Namely, that if we get in touch with these parts of ourselves that are protectors, that it makes us less vulnerable, not more vulnerable-
也就是说，如果我们接触到自己的这些保护者部分，就会让我们变得不那么脆弱，而不是更脆弱——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Totally
完全
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
both to, quote-unquote, "attack." But that also, I guess put simply, that in understanding of ourselves and compassion for ourselves, one develops understanding and compassion for others.
两者都是“攻击”。但我想简单地说，在了解自己和同情自己的过程中，一个人就会发展出对他人的理解和同情心。
But that doesn't mean that you're opening yourself up for harm.
但这并不意味着你会让自己受到伤害。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the opposite is actually true.
而事实恰恰相反。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
The opposite is actually true because these protectors will generate often what they fear.
事实上恰恰相反，因为这些保护者常常会产生他们所害怕的东西。
So by being so protective, they'll create protectors in the other that will attack.
因此，通过如此保护，他们会为其他攻击者创造保护者。
Whereas if they could stay in self, self can be very protective with those C word qualities, very forceful, sometimes fierce.
然而，如果他们能够保持自我，自我就会非常具有保护性，具有那些 C 字品质，非常有力，有时甚至很激烈。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This idea of, I'm definitely following that we will sometimes create in others what we fear because it allows us to engage in this unhealthy dynamic.
我绝对相信，我们有时会在别人身上制造出我们所害怕的东西，因为它让我们参与到这种不健康的动态中。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It seems so counterintuitive, right?
这看起来很违反直觉，对吧？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe we take a kind of classic set of examples that I think are pretty common.
也许我们可以举一些我认为很常见的经典例子。
A person who's codependent with somebody who's a substance abuse addict.
与药物滥用成瘾者相互依赖的人。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or somebody who's very timid and always wants to pacify-
或者是一个非常胆怯并且总是想安抚的人-
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and somebody who's very dominant.
以及一个非常有统治力的人。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When I zoom out from the second case, it actually kind of makes me chuckle how crazy that is because if you think about it, a person who is very dominant doesn't need somebody very timid in order to feel dominant, right?
当我从第二个案例中缩小视野时，实际上让我咯咯地笑，这是多么疯狂，因为如果你仔细想想，一个非常有统治力的人不需要非常胆怯的人才能感到有统治力，对吧？
They could probably feel whatever power it is they need to feel with somebody who is less timid and maybe-
他们可能会感受到他们需要感受到的任何力量，和一个不那么胆怯的人在一起，也许——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the relationship would be healthier.
关系会更健康。
But that's not how people tend to other select.
但这并不是人们倾向于其他选择的方式。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Look, yeah.
瞧，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's kind of interesting.
这有点有趣。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it raises perhaps a bigger question.
因此，这或许提出了一个更大的问题。
Why do people select people that are fundamentally bad for them?
为什么人们会选择对他们根本不利的人？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Okay.
好的。
So I did a book called "You're The One You've Been Waiting For," and in it, I talked about this whole issue.
所以我写了一本书，叫《你就是你一直在等待的人》，在里面我谈到了整个问题。
And so for a lot of people, you get hurt by your parent, and there are parts that want to protect you from your parent, but there are other parts who are desperate, who took on the worthlessness from being rejected by your parent and are desperate for redemption.
所以对于很多人来说，你受到父母的伤害，有些人想要保护你免受父母的伤害，但也有其他人绝望，因为被父母拒绝而感到毫无价值，迫切需要救赎。
Do you follow this?
你遵循这个吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
And so, as you leave and you're looking for a partner, that part from a subconscious place can influence your decision to find somebody who resembles that parent in their effort to be redeemed again.
因此，当你离开并寻找伴侣时，潜意识中的那部分可能会影响你决定寻找与父母相似的人，以再次获得救赎。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Is this anything like the sort of repetition compulsion?
这类似于强迫性重复吗？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Exactly.
确切地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That we tend to repeat a pattern over and over again as an attempt to resolve-
我们倾向于一遍又一遍地重复一种模式，试图解决——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
not just a manifestation of dysfunction.
不仅仅是功能障碍的表现。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
That's a version of what I'm talking about.
这就是我所说的一个版本。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
And so you find somebody who does resemble that person, that parent, and unfortunately, they do resemble that parent.
所以你会找到一个确实像那个人、那个父母的人，不幸的是，他们确实像那个父母。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
And so they'll hurt you in the same way.
所以他们也会以同样的方式伤害你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
And then your protectors go into one of four modes.
然后你的保护者进入四种模式之一。
They'll say, "I've got to change that person back into who they're supposed to be." So they'll try to change the person's behavior.
他们会说：“我必须把那个人改回他们应该成为的样子。”所以他们会尝试改变这个人的行为。
Or they'll say, "I've got to change myself so they'll be who they're supposed to be." Or they'll say, "Oh, this wasn't the redeemer after all," and they'll go looking for the real redeemer who's still out there.
或者他们会说：“我必须改变自己，这样他们才能成为他们应该成为的人。”或者他们会说，“哦，这毕竟不是救赎者”，然后他们会去寻找仍然存在的真正的救赎者。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's always inside.
而且它总是在里面。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
And yeah, that's what I try to do is to help them see that that redeemer is inside of them itself.
是的，这就是我试图做的，就是帮助他们看到救赎者就在他们的内心。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
And if we can go to that exile who's got this thing for this parent-like person and help it connect to self and help it unburden, that whole repetition compulsion disappears.
如果我们能去找那个为这个像父母一样的人带来这个东西的流亡者，帮助它与自我联系并帮助它减轻负担，那么整个重复强迫就会消失。
Because now they can take care of themselves.
因为现在他们可以照顾自己了。
They trust self to do it.
他们相信自己能做到。
They don't need that from some other person like that.
他们不需要其他人那样的东西。
And so when we're working with couples, and you always find some version of that in couples, if we can get each of them to become their own good attachment figure, good caretaker inside, that frees up the partner.
因此，当我们与夫妻一起工作时，你总是会在夫妻中发现这种情况的某种版本，如果我们能让他们每个人都成为自己良好的依恋对象，良好的内心看护者，那就可以释放伴侣。
Because when this exile is leading the relationship, your partner feels a lot of demands or feels a lot like your partner has to take care of that young part of you, and can't fully do it.
因为当这个流亡者主导这段关系时，你的伴侣会感到很多要求，或者感觉你的伴侣必须照顾你年轻的那部分，但又不能完全做到。
So there's always this sense of, oh, a burden.
所以总是有一种，哦，负担的感觉。
You know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It's so interesting how romantic relationships are where these patterns get repeated.
有趣的是，浪漫关系中这些模式不断重复。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And at the same time, I have numerous examples in my life of healthy relationships.
与此同时，我的生活中也有很多健康人际关系的例子。
Is that usually the case because people have done the work before or because they had a minimum of trauma in their upbringing?
通常情况如此，是因为人们以前做过这项工作，还是因为他们在成长过程中受到的创伤最小？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Both.
两者皆有。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
What percentage of kids, adults as well, do you think had a minimum of trauma are just because of the way they're wired and the way the stuff is organized within them that they naturally attach to a good partner and are pretty healthy?
您认为有多少比例的儿童（包括成人）受到的创伤最小，只是因为他们的接线方式和内部物质的组织方式使他们自然地依附于一个好伴侣并且非常健康？
Is it like 25%, 30%?
是25%、30%之类的吗？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Does it-- I know.
是吗——我知道。
Let's see.
让我们来看看。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
I really can't say because my sample is very skewed.
我真的不能说，因为我的样本非常倾斜。
I'm working with psychotherapy patients who always have a lot of trauma.
我正在与那些总是遭受很多创伤的心理治疗患者一起工作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
So I really can't say.
所以我真的不能说。
I'm very biased.
我很有偏见。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, half of marriages in this country end in divorce.
嗯，这个国家有一半的婚姻以离婚告终。
And presumably, of the ones that don't, I'm guessing somewhere between a half and a quarter of those people are really unhappy.
据推测，在那些不这样做的人中，我猜有一半到四分之一的人真的不高兴。
Sounds so pessimistic, but if you just look at the numbers.
听起来很悲观，但如果你只看数字。
And I'm an optimist.
我是一个乐观主义者。
I already acknowledge that I don't like to think about bad stuff and I-
我已经承认我不喜欢想坏事而且我-
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, yeah, I'm guessing that a lot of people repeat these patterns.
所以，是的，我猜很多人都会重复这些模式。
But it seemed as if maybe 20, 30 years ago, because these ideas weren't discussed really-
但看起来好像是 20、30 年前，因为这些想法并没有被真正讨论过——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
so many fewer people were in any kind of analysis or personal exploration work.
从事任何类型的分析或个人探索工作的人少了很多。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That as a society, we defaulted to just sort of role execution.
作为一个社会，我们默认只是某种角色执行。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're a father and a husband, so you do certain things.
你是一个父亲和丈夫，所以你会做某些事情。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Right.
正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you don't do certain things.
而且你不做某些事情。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're a wife and a mother, so you do certain things and you don't do certain, and so on.
你是妻子和母亲，所以你会做某些事情，也不会做某些事情，等等。
And I think nowadays there's a lot of discussion about is there a resurgence of organized religion because we've drifted so far from these kind of core structures?
我认为现在有很多关于有组织宗教是否会复兴的讨论，因为我们已经远离了这些核心结构？
I'd love your thoughts on that.
我很想听听你对此的想法。
And also what you think doing this kind of internal work on oneself without requiring any input or participation from another, what the value of that is.
还有你认为在不需要他人任何投入或参与的情况下对自己进行这种内部工作，其价值是什么。
It sounds like there's tremendous value to just doing this work for oneself, maybe with someone trained in IFS.
听起来，仅仅为自己做这项工作就具有巨大的价值，也许与接受过 IFS 培训的人一起做。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Like I was saying, there's a lot you can do with working with your protectors and helping them get to know self.
就像我说的，与你的保护者合作并帮助他们了解自我，你可以做很多事情。
We didn't do it, but had you asked that titanium teddy bear how old it thought you were and just really waited for the answer-
我们没有这么做，但你是否问过那只钛泰迪熊，它认为你多大了，然后就真的在等待答案——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
...
...
most people will get a single digit.
大多数人都会得到个位数。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
It still thinks you're very young.
它仍然认为你很年轻。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
And it still thinks it has to protect you the way it did when you were very young.
它仍然认为它必须像你很小的时候那样保护你。
And just even updating it creates a huge amount of relief with these protectors.
即使只是更新它，这些保护器也会带来巨大的缓解。
So there's a lot that can be done just by working with protectors, introducing them to self, helping them see they don't have to keep doing this all the time.
因此，只需与保护者合作，向他们介绍自己，帮助他们认识到自己不必一直这样做，就可以做很多事情。
Some protectors, it's very hard for them to totally drop their weapons until what they protect has been healed.
有些保护者，在他们所保护的东西被治愈之前，他们很难完全放下武器。
So that's where the therapist comes in.
这就是治疗师发挥作用的地方。
So there are coaches doing this work, for example.
例如，有教练在做这项工作。
They'll work with some executive and they'll do great, and then they'll get to an exile, and then they'll have the person see a IFS therapist for a couple of sessions to heal the exile and then come back.
他们会与一些主管一起工作，他们会做得很好，然后他们会去流亡，然后他们会让这个人去看 IFS 治疗师几次，以治愈流亡者，然后再回来。
Because coaches aren't trained as therapists and-
因为教练没有接受过治疗师培训，而且——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
...
...
so yeah, there's still need for therapists.
所以是的，仍然需要治疗师。
But you can do a lot on your own.
但你可以自己做很多事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm struck by how experiential it is as opposed to just conceptual.
我对它的体验性而不仅仅是概念性感到震惊。
Obviously, the concepts are important, but I think Internal Family Systems was described for me previously, kind of mapped out for me on paper.
显然，这些概念很重要，但我认为之前已经为我描述了内部家庭系统，有点为我在纸上绘制了出来。
I got a sense of it actually with some objects placed out and these-
通过放置一些物体，我实际上感受到了它——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and it was helpful, but I think just having done a little bit of it today, only by actually feeling the sensations in the body associated with it-
这很有帮助，但我想今天只是做了一点点，只有通过实际感受身体中与之相关的感觉-
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Exactly
正是如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
does it actually really make sense to me.
这对我来说真的有意义吗？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It made sense cognitively, but that's so very different.
这在认知上是有道理的，但这是非常不同的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
It's very removed, yeah.
这是非常遥远的，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it's like me telling people, "Get out and get sunlight in your eyes in the morning to set your circadian rhythm."
是的，这就像我告诉人们，“早上出去，让阳光照射到你的眼睛里，以设定你的昼夜节律。”
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can know that, you can know the underlying mechanisms, the neurons, the pathways, the hormones, et cetera, but At some level, until you experience what that's like for two or three days in a row, you might as well be reading about, I don't know, titanium teddy bears.
你可以知道，你可以知道潜在的机制、神经元、通路、激素等等，但在某种程度上，直到你连续两三天体验到那种感觉，你可能还不如阅读有关，我不知道，钛泰迪熊的内容。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Exactly, and that's why I'm so grateful to you that you were willing to try it.
确实如此，这就是为什么我非常感谢你愿意尝试。
And because it's true, as I describe it to people, they don't really get it until they actually feel it, experience it.
因为这是真的，正如我向人们描述的那样，他们只有真正感受到它、体验到它，才能真正理解它。
And it is very different from many other therapies which are much more cognitively based, because we're trying to bypass that and actually get to this raw stuff in here.
它与许多其他更加基于认知的疗法非常不同，因为我们试图绕过它并真正接触到这里的原始内容。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In order to be deliberately repetitive, I wonder if it would be useful to the listeners to-- Would it be possible to just pose the questions-
为了故意重复，我想知道这对听众是否有用——是否可以只提出问题——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to them-
对他们来说——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as an exercise that they could do in real time?
作为他们可以实时进行的练习？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Totally.
完全可以。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you so much.
非常感谢。
I think that would be tremendously valuable.
我认为这将是非常有价值的。
So I'm going to have to erase myself here.
所以我必须在这里抹掉自己。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For once, I'm going to be quiet for a little while, folks.
伙计们，这一次我要安静一会儿。
And you are the lucky patient that gets to talk to Dr. Schwartz here, and he's going to pose a series of questions.
您是幸运的患者，可以在这里与施瓦茨医生交谈，他将提出一系列问题。
And we'll allow some moments of break or silence for you to be able to tap into the answers to these in real time.
我们将允许一些休息或沉默的时间，以便您能够实时找到这些问题的答案。
That way, you don't have to create a parallel construction of what we did earlier.
这样，您就不必创建我们之前所做的并行构造。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And let me lead by saying, please don't do this if you have fear about doing it.
首先我要说的是，如果您害怕这样做，请不要这样做。
But if you're interested in some inner exploration, then I'll lead you through some of the steps.
但如果您对一些内心探索感兴趣，那么我将引导您完成一些步骤。
So as you've been listening to our conversation, I'm speaking to the listeners, you may be thinking about some of your own parts, particularly your own protectors.
因此，当你一直在听我们的谈话时，我正在对听众讲话，你可能会想到你自己的一些部分，特别是你自己的保护者。
And if you can't think of any, most people have a kind of critic inside or part that makes them work too hard or a part that takes care of too many people.
如果你想不出任何一个，大多数人内心都有一种批评者，或者使他们工作太努力的部分，或者照顾太多人的部分。
So I'm going to invite you to pick a protective part to try to get to know for a few minutes, and just notice that inner voice or that emotion, that thought pattern, that sensation.
因此，我将邀请你选择一个保护部分，尝试了解几分钟，然后注意内心的声音或那种情绪、那种思维模式、那种感觉。
Just focus on it exclusively for a second.
只需专注于它一秒钟。
And as you do that, notice where it seems to be located in your body or around your body.
当您这样做时，请注意它似乎位于您身体或身体周围的位置。
And just take a second with that.
请稍等一下。
And some people don't find a location.
还有一些人找不到位置。
Some people, they still sense it, but it's not clear where it seems to be located.
有些人，他们仍然感觉到它，但不清楚它似乎位于哪里。
But if you do find it in or around your body, then just focus on it there.
但如果你确实在你的身体内或周围发现了它，那么就集中注意力在那里。
And as you focus on it, notice how you feel toward it.
当你专注于它时，注意你对它的感受。
And by that, I mean, do you dislike it and want to get rid of it?
我的意思是，你不喜欢它并想摆脱它吗？
Are you afraid of it?
你害怕吗？
Do you resent how it dominates?
你对它的统治方式感到不满吗？
Do you depend on it?
你依赖它吗？
So you have a relationship with this part of you.
所以你和你的这一部分有关系。
And if you feel anything except a kind of openness or curiosity or willingness to get to know it, then that's coming from other parts that have been trying to deal with it.
如果你除了一种开放性、好奇心或想要了解它的意愿之外还有什么感觉，那么这来自于其他一直在试图处理它的部分。
And we're just going to ask those other parts of you to relax back for just a few minutes so you can get to know it.
我们只是要求你的其他部分放松几分钟，这样你就可以了解它。
We're not going to have it take over more.
我们不会让它接管更多。
We're just going to get to know it better.
我们只是要更好地了解它。
So see if they're willing to let you open your mind to it.
所以看看他们是否愿意让你敞开心扉。
And if they're not, then we're not going to pursue this, and you can just get to know their fear about letting you get to know this target part.
如果他们不是，那么我们就不会追求这个，你可以了解他们对让你了解这个目标部分的恐惧。
But if you do get to that point of just being curious about it without an agenda, then ask it what it wants you to know about itself.
但如果你确实到了只是对它感到好奇而没有议程的地步，那就问问它想让你了解它自己什么。
Just a kind of nice, open-ended question.
只是一个很好的、开放式的问题。
And don't think of the answer.
并且不要思考答案。
Just wait and see what comes from that place in your body.
等着瞧，看看你身体那个地方会产生什么。
And don't judge what comes.
并且不要判断将会发生什么。
Just whatever comes, we'll go with it.
无论发生什么，我们都会顺其自然。
What does it want you to know about itself?
它想让你了解它自己的什么？
And what's it afraid would happen if it didn't do this inside of you?
如果它不在你体内这样做的话，担心会发生什么呢？
If you got an answer to that question about the fear, then it was telling you something about how it's been trying to protect you.
如果你得到了关于恐惧的问题的答案，那么它就告诉你它是如何试图保护你的。
And if that's true, then extend some appreciation to it for at least trying to keep you safe, even if it backfires or it doesn't work.
如果这是真的，那么请对它表示感谢，因为它至少试图保护你的安全，即使它适得其反或不起作用。
Let it know you appreciate that it's trying to protect you, and see how it reacts to your appreciation And then ask if you could go to what it protects and heal or change that so it didn't need to protect you so much, what might it like to do instead inside of you if it was released from this role?
让它知道你感激它试图保护你，看看它对你的感激有何反应，然后问你是否可以去它所保护的地方并治愈或改变它，这样它就不需要保护你那么多了，如果它从这个角色中释放出来，它会在你内心做什么？
And I'll repeat that.
我会重复一遍。
If you could go to what it protects and heal or change that so it was liberated from this protector role, what might it like to do instead inside of you?
如果你可以去它所保护的地方并治愈或改变它，使其从保护者的角色中解放出来，那么它可能会在你内心做什么？
And then ask it this kind of odd question.
然后问它这种奇怪的问题。
How old does this part think you are?
这部分认为您多大了？
Not how old is it, but how old does it think you are?
不是它有多大，而是它认为你多大了？
And again, don't think, just wait and see what comes.
再说一次，不要思考，只是等待，看看会发生什么。
And if it got your age wrong, then go ahead and update it and see how it reacts.
如果它把你的年龄弄错了，那就继续更新，看看它有什么反应。
And the last question for this part is, what does it need from you going forward?
这部分的最后一个问题是，接下来你需要做什么？
What does it need from you?
它需要你做什么？
And again, just wait for the answer.
再次，等待答案。
And when the time feels right, thank your parts for whatever they let you do in this, and then begin to shift your focus back outside and maybe take some deep breaths as you do that.
当感觉合适的时候，感谢你的部分让你在这件事上所做的一切，然后开始将你的注意力转移回外面，也许在做的时候做一些深呼吸。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for that.
谢谢你。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Awesome.
太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That was awesome.
太棒了。
I also was able to get some, I think, good work done in the-
我认为，我还能够在以下方面完成一些出色的工作：
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Is that true?
这是真的吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Totally different location, totally different set of dynamics.
完全不同的位置，完全不同的动态。
Even though what you just took us through is very experiential, what, if any, value do you think there is to writing down sort of-
尽管你刚刚带领我们经历的事情是非常有经验的，但你认为写下来有什么价值（如果有的话）——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
A lot of value
很有价值
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
key takeaways?
关键要点？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So it's great to do the work session or this exercise.
因此，参加工作会议或这项练习非常棒。
But ideally, it's the beginning of a new relationship with this part.
但理想情况下，这是与这部分建立新关系的开始。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
And that takes work on your own.
这需要你自己努力。
So what I advise people is as you get that ball rolling in that good direction, it'll reverse if you don't stay with it for a while.
所以我建议人们，当你让球朝着好的方向滚动时，如果你不坚持一段时间，它就会逆转。
So every day, like you were saying, you wake up, rather than what am I going to do today or what problems do I have in my life?
所以每天，就像你说的，你醒来时，而不是我今天要做什么或者我的生活中有什么问题？
How's that part of me doing that I've been starting to work with?
我开始工作的那部分做得怎么样？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
What does it need from me today?
今天它需要我做什么？
What does it want me to know?
它想让我知道什么？
Is it still feeling better?
感觉还好点吗？
Do I still have compassion for it or appreciation for it?
我仍然对它有同情心或欣赏它吗？
So like I said earlier, this kind of becomes a life practice.
所以就像我之前说的，这成为一种生活实践。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
So I do that every morning.
所以我每天早上都会这样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Every morning?
每天早上？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Well, not every.
嗯，不是每个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, you're very familiar with these parts.
嗯，你对这些部分非常熟悉。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And to clarify for people, when Dr. Schwartz is saying parts, he's saying these personalities within us.
为了向人们澄清，当施瓦茨博士说“部分”时，他说的是我们内心的这些个性。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not necessarily the body part where it manifests.
不一定是它表现出来的身体部位。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But that provides a physical anchor-
但这提供了一个物理锚点——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Exactly
正是如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to look to.
去寻找。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Exactly right.
完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
So, yeah.
所以，是的。
I'll check in, not with all my parts because I've met many, but the ones I've been working with-
我会检查，不是我所有的部分，因为我见过很多人，而是那些我一直在工作的-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
...
...
just to see how they're doing.
只是为了看看他们做得怎么样。
And as I go through the day, I'll notice, am I in those C-word qualities?
当我度过这一天时，我会注意到，我是否具有那些 C 字品质？
Is my heart open?
我的心开放了吗？
Is my mind curious?
我的心好奇吗？
Do I have a big agenda?
我有一个大议程吗？
Any departures from that is the protector usually.
任何偏离这一点的行为通常都是保护者。
And I'll just have a little internal board meeting and say, "I get you feel like..." In preparing to come and be on this podcast, I had to work with the parts that were nervous, and my father was a big scientist, a big endocrinology researcher and-
我会召开一个小型的内部董事会会议并说，“我让你感觉......”在准备参加这个播客时，我不得不与那些紧张的部分一起工作，我的父亲是一位伟大的科学家，一位伟大的内分泌学研究员，而且 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, cool.
哦，酷。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great field.
伟大的领域。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Great field.
伟大的领域。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
My brother is a big shot endocrinology researcher.
我的兄弟是一位大人物内分泌学研究员。
So I have some issues put that way.
所以我有一些这样的问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I hope I didn't reinforce the negative ones.
我希望我没有强化负面的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Well, that was my parts' worries-
嗯，那是我的部分担心的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
...
...
coming in.
进来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
And so I worked on it and said, "Okay, I get it.
于是我就开始研究并说：“好吧，我明白了。
I get you're scared." I could feel them in my hands when I was taking a drink earlier.
我知道你很害怕。”当我早些时候喝酒时，我可以感觉到它们在我手中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Interesting.
有趣的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
But I just kept, "Okay, I get that.
但我只是继续说：“好吧，我明白了。
I get you're scared, but just trust me.
我知道你很害怕，但相信我。
Just step back.
退一步吧。
Just relax." And then I feel this shift, a literal shift.
放松点。”然后我感觉到了这种转变，真正的转变。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
And then I feel those C-words flooding, and then we have a much different kind of conversation.
然后我感觉到那些脏话如潮水般涌来，然后我们就进行了一场截然不同的对话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
So it's a life practice in that sense.
所以从这个意义上说，这是一种生活实践。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Love that.
喜欢那个。
Thanks for sharing that.
感谢您分享这一点。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I didn't detect any anxiety whatsoever, neither pre-recording nor during this discussion.
无论是在预录音中还是在讨论过程中，我都没有发现任何焦虑。
If you don't mind, could you describe or maybe even just list off some of the other labels of parts that people might encounter if they do this kind of work?
如果您不介意，您能否描述或什至列出人们在从事此类工作时可能会遇到的一些其他零件标签？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you describe them as protectors that manage, and then the exiles, which are the parts of us that the protectors and managers are protecting.
所以你把他们描述为管理的保护者，然后是流亡者，这是保护者和管理者正在保护的我们的一部分。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Correct?
对吗？
Okay.
好的。
Those are two different things, right?
这是两件不同的事情，对吗？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
So yeah, the big distinction is between parts that by dent of simply being hurt or terrified or made to feel shamed and worthless.
所以，是的，最大的区别在于那些仅仅受到伤害或害怕或感到羞耻和无价值的部分。
And usually, those are our most sensitive parts.
通常，这些是我们最敏感的部分。
They're the young inner children.
他们是年轻的内在孩子。
They get stuck with those burdens of worthlessness, terror, and emotional pain, and then we don't want anything to do with them because they can overwhelm us, and so we lock them away.
他们被那些毫无价值、恐惧和情感痛苦的负担所困，然后我们不想与他们有任何关系，因为他们会让我们不知所措，所以我们把他们锁起来。
And everybody tells us to do that.
每个人都告诉我们这样做。
So those are the exiles.
所以那些人就是流亡者。
And when you have a lot of exiles, these other parts are forced to become protectors.
当你有很多流放者时，这些其他部分就被迫成为保护者。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
So there are two classes of protectors.
所以有两类保护者。
One are the managers we've been talking about, and the other are the firefighters.
一个是我们一直在谈论的管理者，另一个是消防员。
So we mentioned a number of manager common roles, but there's just lots and lots of them.
我们提到了一些经理的常见角色，但它们的数量实在是太多了。
Firefighter common roles include addictions, dissociating, the kind of judgmental, rageful parts.
消防员常见的角色包括成瘾、分离、评判、愤怒的部分。
I could go on, but-
我可以继续说下去，但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
...
...
anything that is reactive-
任何反应性的东西-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
...
...
impulsive-
冲动——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
...
...
and is designed to protect those vulnerable parts, but in an impulsive way, as opposed to the managers who are all about control and pleasing.
旨在保护那些脆弱的部分，但是以一种冲动的方式，而不是那些注重控制和取悦的管理者。
These firefighters are all about, "If I don't get you away from these feelings right now, you're going to die." A lot of them believe that.
这些消防员的意思是，“如果我现在不让你摆脱这些感觉，你就会死。”他们中的很多人都相信这一点。
And some of them, it's true.
其中一些是真的。
So there's often a kind of hierarchy of firefighter activities.
因此，消防员的活动通常存在某种等级制度。
If the first one doesn't work, you go to the next one.
如果第一个不起作用，则转到下一个。
If that doesn't work, the top of the hierarchy for most people is suicide.
如果这不起作用，对于大多数人来说，最重要的选择就是自杀。
If things get painful enough-
如果事情变得足够痛苦的话——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
...
...
there's this exit strategy.
有这个退出策略。
It's actually very comforting to lots of people.
这实际上让很多人感到非常安慰。
And here we come along and get really scared of these suicidal parts.
在这里，我们真的很害怕这些自杀的部分。
So this is, again, it's one of the hallmarks of the difference with IFS.
因此，这又是与 IFS 不同的标志之一。
If you were to say you've got a suicidal part, say, "Let's go get to know it." I would have you find it and all those steps.
如果你说你有自杀倾向，就说：“我们去了解一下吧。”我想让你找到它以及所有这些步骤。
And I would have you, "What are you afraid would happen if you didn't kill Andrew?" What do you think the answer to that is most of the time?
我会让你问，“如果你不杀安德鲁，你担心会发生什么？”您认为大多数时候这个问题的答案是什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That it would just feel like too much to bear.
这感觉太难以承受了。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like I just couldn't take it anymore.
就像我再也无法忍受一样。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which, of course, is a crazy statement because it's not like my brain would explode.
当然，这是一个疯狂的说法，因为我的大脑不会爆炸。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
But these parts believe it.
但这些部分相信这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
They're not grounded in logic.
它们没有逻辑基础。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Well, my response to that part is, "If we could unload the pain that you're so afraid would overwhelm, would you have to kill him?"
好吧，我对此部分的回应是，“如果我们能够卸下你如此害怕的痛苦，你会不得不杀了他吗？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No.
不。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
"And would you let us do that?"
“那你会让我们这么做吗？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, fortunately, I don't feel suicidal.
嗯，幸运的是，我没有自杀的念头。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the answer would be yes.
但答案是肯定的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Okay.
好的。
Because we can prove to you that we can unload that pain.
因为我们可以向您证明我们可以减轻这种痛苦。
And if we could do that, what would you like to do instead of being the suicidal part?
如果我们能做到这一点，你想做什么而不是成为自杀者？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have to imagine that if somebody, forgive me for going into my head about this, but it's just hard for me to imagine being suicidal.
我必须想象，如果有人原谅我陷入这样的想法，但我很难想象自己会自杀。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
No, that's okay.
不，没关系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
But I have to imagine that if somebody is feeling suicidal in order to protect themselves against the enormity of the feelings that they would otherwise feel, and then they are offered the opportunity to be released from those feelings, I think the scary part would be, it's like wading into really cold water.
但我必须想象，如果有人有自杀倾向，以保护自己免受原本会感受到的巨大感受的影响，然后他们有机会从这些感受中释放出来，我认为可怕的部分是，这就像涉入非常寒冷的水中。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I always feel that way about negative feelings.
我对负面情绪总是有这样的感觉。
Once you get past your waist or so-
一旦你超过腰部左右——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you get your shoulders under-
你的肩膀在下面-
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
That's a good analogy
这是一个很好的比喻
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's a heck of a lot easier.
这要容易得多。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
It's a really nice analogy.
这是一个非常好的比喻。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because you realize there's an upper limit to this stuff-
因为你意识到这些东西有一个上限-
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and you passed it a little while ago.
你不久前就通过了它。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah, so that suicidal part often transforms into a part that wants to help you live, actually.
是的，实际上，自杀的部分常常会转变为想要帮助你生活的部分。
They're often in the role that's opposite of who they really are.
他们扮演的角色常常与他们的真实身份相反。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
So as you can hear, this is a totally different approach to suicide, for example.
正如您所听到的，这是一种完全不同的自杀方法。
And we do the same with addictive firefighters.
我们对上瘾的消防员也做了同样的事情。
Find that part that makes you so high.
找到让你如此兴奋的部分。
How do you feel toward, "I hate it.
你对“我讨厌它”有什么感觉？
I want to be in recovery.
我想康复。
I want to just lock it up." Just get all that to step out and just get curious about and ask it what it's afraid would happen if it didn't get you high all the time.
我想把它锁起来。”只要走出去，好奇一下，问问它，如果它不能一直让你兴奋，它担心会发生什么。
Same answer.
同样的答案。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
If we could heal all that pain or that shame, would you have to get them high all the time?
如果我们能够治愈所有的痛苦或耻辱，你是否需要一直让它们兴奋起来？
"No, but I don't think you can do that." Would you give us a chance to prove we can?
“不，但我认为你做不到。”您能给我们一个机会来证明我们可以吗？
Totally different approach to all these problems.
解决所有这些问题的方法完全不同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Something comes to mind.
我想到了一些事情。
For a number of years, not now, fortunately, I still work a lot, but I worked, I'll share the numbers, but it's not a goal that no one should try and exceed this.
多年来，不是现在，幸运的是，我仍然工作很多，但我工作了，我会分享这些数字，但这不是一个没有人应该尝试超越的目标。
There were times in graduate school where I, no joke, worked 80, 85 hours a week, slept under my desk.
在研究生院，我有时每周工作 80 到 85 个小时，这不是开玩笑，我睡在桌子底下。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I lived in my office as a junior professor.
我作为初级教授住在我的办公室里。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My students can attest to that.
我的学生可以证明这一点。
Brushed my teeth in work.
工作时刷牙。
Not every night, but if I had Deadlines.
不是每天晚上，但如果我有最后期限的话。
It was just all in with mind, body, heart, everything.
一切都与头脑、身体、心灵融为一体。
It's not healthy.
这不健康。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
And at some point, I had to take a look at it because it's not conducive to a lot of things.
在某些时候，我不得不看看它，因为它对很多事情都不利。
You can get a lot done.
你可以完成很多事情。
I won't lie.
我不会说谎。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can get a lot done, you can get a lot of degrees, you can get a lot of knowledge, and you can accomplish a lot.
你可以完成很多事情，你可以获得很多学位，你可以获得很多知识，你可以完成很多事情。
But I decided to take a look at it.
但我决定看一下。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like what would happen if I, I don't know, published five awesome papers in a year instead of 10 or something.
就像如果我，我不知道，一年内发表了 5 篇很棒的论文而不是 10 篇之类的，会发生什么。
I just started looking at it, and it seems crazy now, but I remember the genuine fear of backing off.
我刚开始看它，现在看起来很疯狂，但我记得真正害怕退缩。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I started to realize that I loved what I did, but that some of the work came from a-
我开始意识到我喜欢我所做的事情，但有些工作来自——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a desire to compete out other feelings.
渴望与其他感情竞争。
It's a form of dissociation.
这是一种分离形式。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Totally.
完全可以。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then what happened was I was able to adjust my hours, really pick the projects that held the most meaning for me, and then really savor them and enjoy them.
然后发生的事情是我能够调整我的时间，真正选择对我最有意义的项目，然后真正品味它们并享受它们。
And that's how I approached the podcast and other things I'm doing.
这就是我处理播客和我正在做的其他事情的方式。
So it was a tremendously useful-
所以这是一个非常有用的——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
exploration, but it was terrifying.
探索，但是却很可怕。
I didn't have to go to 12-step for work addiction or anything.
我不必因为工作成瘾或其他什么原因而去参加12步法。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It wasn't at that level.
那不是那个水平。
But-
但是——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
But you're giving an example of exactly what we do.
但你给出的例子正是我们所做的。
We go to that workaholic part.
我们进入工作狂的部分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
What are you afraid would happen if you didn't do this to them?
如果你不这样对待他们，你担心会发生什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So what I came to, it's interesting, it was literally a fear of annihilation.
所以我发现，很有趣的是，这实际上是一种对毁灭的恐惧。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Of disappearing.
消失的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then I thought, well, then you parsed it a little bit further.
然后我想，好吧，然后你再进一步解析一下。
Disappearing to who?
消失给谁？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not like there was an absence of positive feedback.
这并不是说没有积极的反馈。
So it wasn't actually to avoid disappearing from the outside world.
所以这实际上并不是为了避免从外界消失。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because I'll tell you, when you're working 80, 85 hours a week-
因为我会告诉你，当你每周工作 80、85 小时时-
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
You're already disappeared
你已经消失了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you're already gone.
你已经走了。
You just don't realize it.
你只是没有意识到。
It was actually some way of avoiding this thing that I've now come to really love.
这实际上是我现在真正喜欢的避免这种事情的某种方式。
I learned it from my bulldog.
我从我的斗牛犬那里学到的。
I used to have this assumption that slow is low.
我曾经有这样的假设：慢就是低。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like to slow down is depressive.
喜欢放慢脚步就是抑郁。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now I love slowing down.
现在我喜欢放慢脚步。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I did learn that from my bulldog, and a few people came into my life and their dogs as well.
我确实从我的斗牛犬那里学到了这一点，一些人和他们的狗也进入了我的生活。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I learned to really savor slow.
我学会了慢慢品味。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And not just so that I can bounce back into work.
不仅仅是为了让我能够重新投入工作。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That too, admittedly.
不可否认，这也是如此。
But also, and it came through, I just would like your thoughts on this.
而且，事情已经发生了，我只是想知道你对此的想法。
I realized right as I would go into or come out of a meditation or what I call non-sleep deep rest, this kind of yoga nidra like deep relaxation thing that listeners of this podcast will be familiar with hearing about, that there's this really terrifying moment where I realize someday, assuming I'm awake when it happens or it's not an accident or I don't get involved in an accident, I'm going to take my last breath.
当我进入或结束冥想或我所说的非睡眠深度休息时，这种像瑜伽休息术一样的深度放松的事情，这个播客的听众会熟悉听到的，有一个非常可怕的时刻，我意识到有一天，假设我醒着，当它发生时，或者这不是一场事故，或者我没有卷入一场事故，我将咽下最后一口气。
And it's absolutely terrifying-
这绝对是可怕的——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that concept.
那个概念。
And I realized that the fear of disappearing is actually a fear of death.
我意识到，对消失的恐惧实际上是对死亡的恐惧。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And what I was really afraid of-
而我真正害怕的是——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
was death.
就是死亡。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I was using work.
我正在使用工作。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's a long way from working 60 hours or 40 hours a week instead, or 30, whatever, but people choose as opposed to 85.
因此，距离每周工作 60 小时或 40 小时，或者 30 小时等等还有很长的路要走，但人们选择而不是 85 小时。
But what I realized what I was running from was the fear of my own mortality.
但我意识到我正在逃避的是对自己死亡的恐惧。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I didn't have to use any substances to realize this.
我不需要使用任何物质来实现这一点。
I just had to keep peeling back the layers of like-
我只需要不断地剥开层层像-
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
That's exactly right
完全正确
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
what are you really afraid of?
你真正害怕什么？
And now I've come to the conclusion that most addiction, having talked to a lot of addicts with process addictions and substance addictions, et cetera, that deep down, everyone, addict or no, is terrified of death.
现在我得出的结论是，在与许多患有过程成瘾和物质成瘾等的成瘾者交谈后，我得出的结论是，大多数成瘾者，在内心深处，每个人，无论是否成瘾，都害怕死亡。
It's just that some people are in touch with that terror and have worked through it.
只是有些人接触到了这种恐惧并克服了它。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But, and so-
但是，等等——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Well, you remember what I was saying earlier when we talked to these addict parts, what are you afraid would happen if you didn't make him high?
好吧，你还记得我刚才在我们与这些成瘾者交谈时所说的话，如果你不让他兴奋的话，你担心会发生什么吗？
He would die.
他会死的。
So that's a really common answer.
所以这是一个非常常见的答案。
And basically what you just described is you were doing IFS without knowing it.
基本上，您刚才所描述的是您在不知不觉中进行了 IFS。
Asking those questions, what are you really afraid of?
问这些问题，你真正害怕的是什么？
Till you get to the key answer, and then I don't know how you help that part that feared death, but somehow you helped it relax more.
直到你找到关键答案，然后我不知道你如何帮助那个害怕死亡的部分，但不知何故你帮助它放松了更多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I think, for better or worse, if I see or experience something that scares me a lot, I have to explore the contours of it.
是的，我认为，无论好坏，如果我看到或经历了一些让我非常害怕的事情，我必须探索它的轮廓。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's been a dangerous part of my life, and it's been a helpful-
那是我生命中危险的一部分，但也是有帮助的——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
To go toward it.
去走向它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
And it's been a helpful part of my life, too.
这也是我生活中很有帮助的一部分。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The ability to suppress one's reflex to avoid fear-
抑制自己的反射以避免恐惧的能力——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is such a complicated thing because on the one hand, it's necessary to navigate life.
这是一件如此复杂的事情，因为一方面，它是引导生活的必要条件。
On the other hand, people always say, "What would you tell your younger self if you could tell your younger self anything?"
另一方面，人们总是说：“如果你可以告诉年轻时的自己任何事情，你会告诉年轻时的自己什么？”
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I would have said, "Psst, hey dude, listen, if something makes you anxious, get out of there." Because my reflex has always been that if something gives me anxiety-
我会说，“嘿，伙计，听着，如果有什么事情让你焦虑，就离开那里。”因为我的本能反应一直是，如果有什么事情让我焦虑——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
You go toward it
你走向它
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
like, okay, here's a test of myself.
就像，好吧，这是对我自己的测试。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
I see, yeah.
我明白了，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I need to overcome it.
我需要克服它。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Okay.
好的。
So that's another part protecting.
这是保护的另一部分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So in any case, some people are the opposite.
所以无论如何，有些人是相反的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I've tended to touch the hot stove three times-
是的，我曾经三度碰过热炉子——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
when it should've been one trial learning.
当它应该是一次尝试学习时。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
That's right, yeah.
没错，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it hurt, excuse me, the first time.
对不起，第一次，很痛。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But that's just me.
但这只是我。
Everyone's got these things, but what I'm discovering, certainly through what you're telling us today, but also the exploration of these things is that so much of life is structured, especially nowadays with the phone, love the phone, love social media, but so much of life is structured to fill all the space between activities.
每个人都有这些东西，但我发现，当然是通过你今天告诉我们的内容，而且是对这些东西的探索，生活的大部分内容都是结构化的，尤其是现在有了电话，热爱电话，热爱社交媒体，但生活的大部分内容都是结构化的，以填补活动之间的所有空间。
And I do want your thoughts on what you see in terms of things that are active impediments to doing good work of the sorts of ...
我确实希望您对您所看到的那些阻碍做好工作的事物发表看法……
work that you're describing today, self-work.
你今天所描述的工作，自我工作。
I would never ask, I guess, to be disparaging of the world just for its own sake, but I think people are now starting to develop an awareness of how certain technologies and lifestyle habits that are unique to the last five or 10 years are really exacerbating our problems-
我想，我永远不会要求仅仅为了世界本身而贬低世界，但我认为人们现在开始意识到过去五年或十年特有的某些技术和生活习惯实际上正在加剧我们的问题 -
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as they relate to ourselves, not just interpersonal dynamics.
因为它们与我们自己有关，而不仅仅是人际关系动态。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Very much, sure.
非常非常，当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You seem to be thinking about the big picture a lot, so I'm curious what your thoughts are.
你似乎经常考虑大局，所以我很好奇你的想法是什么。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So, all these little machines we have and all the ways we have of never spending any time by ourselves, or alone, or thinking, just feed these protective parts, these distractors, and leave in the dust more and more these exiled parts.
所以，我们拥有的所有这些小机器，以及我们从不花时间独处、独处或思考的所有方式，只是喂养这些保护性部件、这些干扰物，并将越来越多的这些被放逐的部件留在灰尘中。
So a lot of people's fear of not having something to do is because when they don't, or if they're not working in your case, then these exiled parts start to come forward.
因此，很多人担心无事可做，是因为当他们无事可做时，或者如果他们不在你的情况下工作，那么这些被流放的部分就会开始站出来。
They're not being distracted from.
他们没有被分散注意力。
In my case, I mentioned my father.
就我而言，我提到了我的父亲。
I'm the oldest of six boys.
我是六个男孩中最大的一个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, wow.
哦，哇。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
I was supposed to be a physician like him and a researcher, and I was spared that fate because I had undiagnosed ADD and wasn't a good student.
我本来应该像他一样成为一名医生和研究员，但我幸免于难，因为我患有未确诊的多动症，而且不是一个好学生。
And three of my brothers were physician research types.
我的三个兄弟都是医生研究类型。
But I was the oldest, so he was really hard on me in terms of lazy and worthless and so on.
但我是最大的，所以他对我真的很严厉，包括懒惰、不值钱等等。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
So I came out of my family with a lot of worthlessness, and actually the model wouldn't exist if I didn't have that because I had this part that had to prove him wrong and drive me, not to the extent you're talking about or sleeping in the office or anything, but would drive me to find this model and then take it in the face of a lot of attack to where it is now.
所以我带着很多无用的东西离开了我的家庭，实际上，如果我没有这个模型，这个模型就不会存在，因为我有这个部分，它必须证明他是错的，并驱使我，不是达到你在办公室里谈论或睡觉或其他什么的程度，而是驱使我找到这个模型，然后在面对很多攻击时将它带到现在的位置。
And if I wasn't working on it, if I wasn't getting the accolades, then that worthlessness would crop up, and then I'd have other firefighters to try and deal with that.
如果我不为此努力，如果我没有获得赞誉，那么这种毫无价值的感觉就会突然出现，然后我就会让其他消防员来尝试解决这个问题。
And I had not only the workaholic part, but I had a part that could close my heart and make me not care what people think.
而我不仅有工作狂的部分，还有可以关闭我的心，让我不在乎别人怎么想的部分。
And because I was attacked by traditional psychiatry and so on.
而且因为我受到了传统精神病学等的攻击。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For developing internal family systems?
为了发展内部家庭系统？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I was humiliated at Grand Rounds a couple of times, and I was in a department of psychiatry.
我在大查房中被羞辱过几次，当时我在精神病学系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What is with the field of psychiatry?
精神病学领域是什么？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
It's a good question.
这是一个好问题。
So point being that I was dominated as I developed this by these protectors, and it got me through all that, but it didn't serve me as a leader of a community.
所以重点是，当我开发这个时，我被这些保护者所支配，它让我经历了这一切，但它并没有让我成为一个社区的领导者。
And I was lucky to have some students who would confront my parts and would just say, "You can't keep going on like this if you're going to be any use to us." And I listened, and I went and worked with that worthlessness, and now I don't have it.
我很幸运，有一些学生会面对我的角色，并只会说：“如果你想对我们有任何用处，你就不能继续这样下去。”我听了，然后带着这种无价值去工作，但现在我没有了。
I don't have to work.
我不用工作。
I feel free because I'm not so afraid of that bubbling up if I'm not distracted.
我感到很自由，因为如果我不分心的话，我就不会那么害怕这种事情的发生。
And now we have more distractions than ever, as we're saying.
正如我们所说，现在我们的干扰比以往任何时候都多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
The pain point can potentially become the source of tremendous growth and value to the world-
这个痛点有可能成为世界巨大增长和价值的源泉——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
based on what you've developed.
基于您所开发的内容。
Keep in mind, I learned about your work not just through Martha Beck, although Martha as well, but several incredibly talented psychologists-
请记住，我不仅通过玛莎·贝克了解了你的工作，尽管玛莎也是如此，但还有几位非常有才华的心理学家——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
scholars in the field of research psychology-
研究心理学领域的学者——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and actually a psychiatrist as well.
实际上也是一位精神科医生。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah, there are some-
是的，有一些——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There are some good ones
有一些不错的
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
...
...
good psychiatrists.
好的精神科医生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe I'll just share.
也许我会分享。
So a psychiatrist that I think the world of said to me, I won't reveal who it is, but they said, "Do you know why there are so many lousy psychiatrists?" This isn't a joke, actually, even though it sounds like the setup for a joke.
所以我认为世界上的一位精神科医生对我说，我不会透露他是谁，但他们说，“你知道为什么有这么多糟糕的精神科医生吗？”事实上，这不是一个笑话，尽管它听起来像是一个笑话的设置。
I said, "No, why?" And they said, "Well, because if you're a cardiothoracic surgeon and 30% of your patients die, you're considered a pretty terrible cardiothoracic surgeon.
我说：“不，为什么？”他们说，“嗯，因为如果你是一名心胸外科医生，而你的病人有 30% 死亡，那么你就会被认为是一个非常糟糕的心胸外科医生。
If you're a psychiatrist, unless your patients kill themselves on a frequent basis, you can have a pretty, quote-unquote, successful career."
如果你是一名精神科医生，除非你的病人经常自杀，否则你可以拥有一个漂亮的、成功的职业生涯。”
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
That's interesting.
那很有意思。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And no one ever questions-
没有人质疑——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Challenges you
挑战你
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
whether or not you're good at your job or not.
无论你是否擅长你的工作。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because the field, A, has a dearth of tools, B, the kind of assumption is that a lot of things don't get better-
因为领域 A 缺乏工具 B，所以这种假设是很多事情都不会变得更好——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and on and on.
等等。
And they listed off all these reasons why the field of psychiatry is so replete with what they described as-
他们列出了精神病学领域如此充斥着他们所描述的所有这些原因——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
lousy psychiatrists.
糟糕的精神科医生。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I do believe there are some excellent psychiatrists out there, research and clinical, and both.
所以我确实相信那里有一些优秀的精神科医生，无论是研究还是临床，两者兼而有之。
I don't know if that does anything.
我不知道这是否有什么作用。
It sounds like you worked through your relationship to psychiatrists on your own.
听起来你和精神科医生的关系似乎是你自己解决的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
I have.
我有。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You don't need my statements.
你不需要我的陈述。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
And I agree with you entirely, yeah.
我完全同意你的观点，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
I tried to stay in psychiatry and just kept hitting the brick wall, and so I went grassroots for 30 years, and now it's started to come around into psychiatry, so-
我试图留在精神病学领域，但一直碰壁，所以我在基层工作了 30 年，现在它开始进入精神病学领域，所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
...
...
it feels good that way.
这样感觉很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's interesting how timing in a field is so important, and not just an academic field, but a clinical field, and the ethos.
有趣的是，时机在一个领域如此重要，不仅是学术领域，而且是临床领域和精神领域。
If anyone is interested in understanding where we are in the arc of medicine and culture, I highly recommend reading Oliver Sacks' book, "On the Move."
如果有人有兴趣了解我们在医学和文化弧线上的位置，我强烈建议阅读奥利弗·萨克斯的书《前进》。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He was obviously a neurologist and writer, but he describes coming up through medicine And being in these various fields, he worked on headache for a while.
他显然是一名神经科医生和作家，但他描述了自己是通过医学发展起来的，在这些不同的领域，他有一段时间致力于头痛。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's pretty interesting.
这很有趣。
He wrote a book about migraine.
他写了一本关于偏头痛的书。
He worked with kids on the autism spectrum and-
他与自闭症谱系儿童一起工作，并且——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a bunch of different fields, and in every single one of those fields was vehemently attacked-
一系列不同的领域，每一个领域都受到了猛烈的攻击——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
by some individual for whatever reason.
某些人出于某种原因。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Usually a superior.
通常是上级。
Kicked out of universities.
被大学开除。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Moved to another one.
搬到了另一处。
Now, he did have his own issues.
现在，他确实有自己的问题。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There was a time he was a methamphetamine addict and things like that, but he got over that and became the great Oliver Sacks that he was.
有一段时间，他对甲基苯丙胺成瘾或类似的事情，但他克服了这一点，成为了伟大的奥利弗·萨克斯。
But, he describes these fields as having a culture at the time of really trying to suppress new ideas and holding people down.
但是，他将这些领域描述为在真正试图压制新思想和压制人们的时候存在一种文化。
And then, toward the end of his career, several of the universities that essentially had fired him earlier-
然后，在他职业生涯即将结束时，几所早些时候解雇了他的大学——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
hospitals and universities, were trying to recruit him back with multiple appointments-
医院和大学，试图通过多次任命重新招募他——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because now he was this famous guy who had written the movie or worked on the movie "Awakenings" and like- ...
因为现在他是一位著名的人物，曾写过这部电影或参与过电影《觉醒》的制作，诸如此类——...
and it revealed the hypocrisy of these big institutions.
它暴露了这些大机构的虚伪。
And so it made me chuckle, and also realize that for those of us who are doing public health education at any level, and certainly on these more non-traditional things, approaches, that the time is right for sharing them and well, and the good news is nobody lives forever.
所以这让我咯咯笑起来，也意识到，对于我们这些在任何级别上进行公共卫生教育的人来说，当然是在这些非传统的事情和方法上，现在是分享它们的好时机，好消息是没有人可以永远活着。
So, the old guard dies or retires.
因此，老卫士要么去世，要么退休。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
That's true, and I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for that department of psychiatry to invite me back.
确实如此，我不会屏住呼吸等待精神病学部门邀请我回来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I won't ask which one it was.
我不会问那是哪一个。
We can have an offline discussion about that.
我们可以就这个问题进行线下讨论。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They just might.
他们只是可能。
A couple of more questions.
还有几个问题。
First of all, going back to this thing about the larger context-
首先，回到更大的背景——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of culture.
的文化。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love the optimism that's threaded through your view.
我喜欢你观点中的乐观情绪。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That we could get, God willing, Democrats and Republicans to come to some sort of common ground around the most important issues.
如果上帝保佑，我们可以让民主党人和共和党人就最重要的问题达成某种共识。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That we potentially could eradicate destructive racism.
我们有可能消除破坏性的种族主义。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Racism of all kinds.
各种种族主义。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But given the way you described it, certainly its implementation in the world is the first thing that needs to be dealt with, right?
但考虑到你所描述的方式，它在世界上的实施当然是首先需要处理的事情，对吧？
Certainly, if people can see those parts of themselves-
当然，如果人们能够看到自己的那些部分——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and work with them, that we stand a chance to do that.
并与他们合作，我们有机会做到这一点。
And given that trauma is near ubiquitous, that people could start to address their own traumas so that they can induce fewer in other people.
鉴于创伤几乎无处不在，人们可以开始解决自己的创伤，这样就可以减少对他人的伤害。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I guess that's basically the ultimate goal of humanity.
我想这基本上就是人类的最终目标。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Totally.
完全可以。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I, like so many people lately, by the way, not just in the last year or so, but for the last 10 years, have just been developing the sense like, goodness, it just seems like the number of problems just seems to be expanding exponentially.
顺便说一句，我和最近很多人一样，不仅仅是在过去一年左右，而是在过去十年里，我一直在发展一种感觉，天哪，问题的数量似乎正在呈指数级增长。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How do we get our heads around this?
我们如何解决这个问题？
And there's so much blame game going on of, well, it's because of this, and it's because of that, and that's not a solution at all.
存在如此多的指责游戏，嗯，是因为这个，也是因为那个，而这根本不是解决方案。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I love your sense of optimism that it's possible.
所以我喜欢你的乐观态度，因为这是可能的。
And then my question is, how do we get that going?
然后我的问题是，我们如何实现这一目标？
To be direct.
说得直接一点。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, that's what I've been working on the last several years, and what I can say is, for example, I spent 20 years.
那么这就是我这几年一直在做的事情，我可以说，比如说我花了20年。
I worked with bulimia, like I said, and I thought, "Okay, this really works with that population."
正如我所说，我与贪食症一起工作，我想，“好吧，这确实适合该人群。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You got people who were bulimic to essentially not be bulimic any longer?
你让那些患有暴食症的人基本上不再暴食了吗？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
And then I thought, "Okay, well, let's see if no bad parts is really true." And so I went to the toughest populations I could find.
然后我想，“好吧，让我们看看是否真的没有坏的部分。”所以我去了我能找到的最困难的人群。
And so for 20 years, I worked with DID, and I worked with-
就这样，我和 DID 一起工作了 20 年，我和——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
DID?
做了吗？
Sorry
抱歉
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
...
...
dissociative identity disorder-
分离性身份障碍——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Ah, thank you
啊，谢谢你
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
...
...
like multiple personality disorder.
就像多重人格障碍一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
And I worked with what's called borderline personality clients and-
我与所谓的边缘人格客户一起工作，并且-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, very common, right?
是的，很常见，对吧？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Before, when you talked about bulimia, bulimia is notoriously difficult to-
之前，当你谈到暴食症时，众所周知，暴食症很难——
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to treat, let alone cure.
去治疗，更不用说治愈了。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
It's because people fight with the symptoms.
这是因为人们与症状作斗争。
They try to get rid of the symptoms instead of listening to the part that's making them binge about what that's about.
他们试图摆脱这些症状，而不是去听那些让他们沉迷其中的部分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Moving from the one-on-one therapy model to a model where people can do this work on their own as well as in groups.
从一对一的治疗模式转变为人们可以自己或小组完成这项工作的模式。
But if I'm correct in thinking this, it seems like getting the work done with oneself is the first real step.
但如果我的想法是正确的，那么自己完成工作似乎才是真正的第一步。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That there's no replacement for that, right?
没有替代品，对吗？
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
And, in the activist world, there's always been a kind of, "You're wasting your time," but there's been a polarization between being in the activist mindset of really trying to change things in the outside world versus sitting around and just focusing inside and not being an activist.
而且，在激进主义者的世界里，总是有一种“你在浪费时间”的说法，但在真正试图改变外部世界的激进主义者心态与坐在那里只关注内部而不是成为一名激进主义者之间存在着两极分化。
But I'm working with a lot of the people you would recognize in terms of activists, and when they came to me, they were doing their activism from the sort of righteous, judgmental part.
但我正在与很多你会认识到的积极分子一起工作，当他们来找我时，他们是从正义的、批判性的角度进行活动的。
And if we can get that one to step back and have them do their activism from self, they have a totally different impact.
如果我们能让那个人退后一步，让他们从自我出发采取行动，他们就会产生完全不同的影响。
People are willing to listen to them, whereas when they're in that righteous place, nobody wants to listen to the shaming it does.
人们愿意听他们的，而当他们处于正义的地方时，没有人愿意听它所带来的羞辱。
It needs to be both.
两者都需要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
People need to do their work, access self, and then start to try to change the outside world.
人们需要做好自己的工作，接触自我，然后开始尝试改变外部世界。
Or not one before the other, but at least simultaneously.
或者不是一个在另一个之前，而是至少同时进行。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fantastic.
太棒了。
No, really fantastic.
不，真的太棒了。
I don't think we've ever done a podcast like this where the audience had a chance to do self-work in real time.
我认为我们从来没有做过这样的播客，让观众有机会实时进行自我创作。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Oh, I really appreciate you giving me the opportunity.
哦，我真的很感谢你给我这个机会。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I don't know that I've ever heard a discussion like it, to be honest, which is just a testament to you and your bravery.
是的，说实话，我不知道我曾经听过这样的讨论，这只是对你和你勇敢的证明。
It's very clear that your decision not to go into endocrinology was one that we all are grateful for.
很明显，我们都对您不从事内分泌学的决定表示感谢。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
It wasn't a decision.
这不是一个决定。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, my endocrinologist friends will have to just accept that we've got a lot of good endocrinologists.
好吧，我的内分泌学家朋友们必须承认我们有很多优秀的内分泌学家。
We needed you, Dr. Dick Schwartz, to find yourself in this business of discovering and creating a truly novel approach to therapy and self-work that goes all the way up to the potential to change culture and change the world.
迪克·施瓦茨博士，我们需要你在这个行业中找到自己，发现并创造一种真正新颖的治疗和自我工作方法，这种方法一直具有改变文化和改变世界的潜力。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
That's the goal.
这就是目标。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, those aren't just words.
是的，这些不仅仅是言语。
Those are real aspirational, possible things that could be accomplished if people do this work.
如果人们从事这项工作，这些都是真正有抱负的、可能实现的事情。
And in coming here today and sharing with us the structure of internal family systems and a demonstration of how it can work and offering people the opportunity to do it themselves in real time and giving us your perspective about the things that are around it as well as in it with incredible clarity and just a real beautiful sense of care for people that comes through.
今天来到这里，与我们分享内部家庭系统的结构，并演示它如何运作，并为人们提供实时亲自操作的机会，并以令人难以置信的清晰度向我们提供您对周围事物以及内部事物的看法，以及对所经历的人们的真正美好的关怀感。
But also I like the concreteness of it so very much.
但我也非常喜欢它的具体性。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
It's very concrete.
这是非常具体的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
It's not abstract.
这并不抽象。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I really appreciate that, and I'm certain that everyone else does as well.
我真的很感激这一点，并且我确信其他人也一样。
So I want to thank you for coming here today, for sharing this.
所以我要感谢你今天来到这里分享这个。
We will provide links to places where people can learn more through books and courses and-
我们将提供人们可以通过书籍和课程了解更多信息的链接，并且-
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
other resources that you've created and also just for the work that you've done and for being you.
您创建的其他资源，也只是为了您所做的工作和做您自己。
It's been a real pleasure, and I'm so very glad we did it.
这真是一种乐趣，我很高兴我们做到了。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Me too.
我也是。
Oh my God, my little nervous part's giving me a lot of trouble.
天哪，我那小小的神经质给我带来了很多麻烦。
But once we got going, I just felt connected, and I felt your appreciation and interest, and so we could have this kind of self-to-self exchange, which I love.
但一旦我们开始，我就感觉到了联系，我感受到了你的欣赏和兴趣，所以我们可以进行这种自我交流，我喜欢这种交流。
I love spending time in that energy.
我喜欢花时间在这种能量上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, likewise.
是的，同样。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
And you're a great interviewer, too.
你也是一位出色的面试官。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, thank you.
哦，谢谢。
Well, this whole thing is a labor of love and a free fall through just curiosity.
好吧，这整件事都是出于爱的劳动和好奇心的自由落体。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So.
所以。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Yeah, it's clear.
是的，很清楚。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I hope to continue the conversation.
我希望继续对话。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Would love to.
很乐意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wonderful.
太棒了。
Thanks so much.
非常感谢。
Dr. Richard Schwartz:
理查德·施瓦茨博士：
Thank you so much.
非常感谢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Richard Schwartz.
感谢您参加今天与理查德·施瓦茨博士的讨论。
To learn more about his work and to find links to his many excellent books, please see the show note captions.
要了解有关他的作品的更多信息并找到他的许多优秀书籍的链接，请参阅节目注释标题。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please click follow for the podcast on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请点击关注 Spotify 和 Apple 上的播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab Podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客或嘉宾有意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman 实验室播客考虑的主题，请将这些内容放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这本书是我花了五年多的时间编写的，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验。
And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
它涵盖了从睡眠到运动再到压力控制的所有协议，以及与注意力和动机相关的协议，当然，我为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." If you're not already following me on social media, I am hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 hubermanlab。
So that's Instagram, X, formerly known as Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Threads.
这就是 Instagram、X，以前称为 Twitter、Facebook、LinkedIn 和 Threads。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab Podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content on the Huberman Lab Podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容不同。
Again, that's hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
再说一次，这就是所有社交媒体平台上的 hubermanlab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available completely zero cost.
所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件即可。
And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Richard Schwartz.
再次感谢您参加今天与理查德·施瓦茨博士的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。