How Nature & Other Physical Environments Impact Your Focus, Cognition & Health | Dr. Marc Berman
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. Mark Berman.
今天我的客人是马克·伯曼博士。
Dr. Mark Berman is a professor of psychology at the University of Chicago, where he directs the Environmental Neuroscience Laboratory.
马克·伯曼博士是芝加哥大学的心理学教授，领导环境神经科学实验室。
His research focuses on how our physical environments, particularly natural environments, impact our brain function, mental health, and cognitive performance.
他的研究重点是我们的物理环境，特别是自然环境，如何影响我们的大脑功能、心理健康和认知表现。
During today's episode, we discuss the fascinating and actionable science of how your physical surroundings indoors, and in particular, your relationship and interactions with nature, can shape your biology and your cognitive abilities.
在今天的节目中，我们将讨论令人着迷且可操作的科学，即您的室内物理环境，特别是您与自然的关系和互动，如何塑造您的生物学和认知能力。
Dr. Berman explains how exposure to very common features in nature, such as fractal patterns, increase your ability to focus, reduce your stress, and improve your mental and physical health metrics.
伯曼博士解释了接触自然界中非常常见的特征（例如分形图案）如何提高您的专注能力、减轻压力并改善您的身心健康指标。
And not just while you're in nature, but after you return indoors for many hours and even days afterwards.
不仅是在您身处大自然时，而且是在您返回室内数小时甚至数天之后。
During today's episode, you'll learn about something called attention restoration theory, which turns out to be very important for understanding how different types of indoor and outdoor environments either deplete or restore your cognitive resources.
在今天的节目中，您将了解一种称为注意力恢复理论的知识，该理论对于理解不同类型的室内和室外环境如何耗尽或恢复您的认知资源非常重要。
We also discuss practical science-based strategies that anyone can implement, regardless of where you live.
我们还讨论了任何人都可以实施的基于科学的实用策略，无论您住在哪里。
So if you're in an apartment or a house, if you have ready access to nature or if you don't, today's episode explains how to design your indoor space, the optimal duration and timing of nature exposure, and the specific visual and auditory elements that will provide you with the greatest cognitive and health benefits.
因此，如果您住在公寓或房屋中，无论您是否可以随时接触大自然，今天的节目将解释如何设计您的室内空间、接触大自然的最佳持续时间和时机，以及将为您提供最大认知和健康益处的特定视觉和听觉元素。
So whether you're a student or a professional looking to enhance your learning capacity, focus, and reduce your burnout, or you're simply interested in optimizing your mental and physical health through exposure to different elements of nature, today's episode provides clear, actionable protocols based on rigorous scientific research.
因此，无论您是希望提高学习能力、注意力和减少倦怠的学生还是专业人士，或者您只是想通过接触不同的自然元素来优化身心健康，今天的节目都提供了基于严格科学研究的清晰、可操作的方案。
By the end of today's episode, you'll have a toolkit of evidence-based strategies that will transform your relationship with your indoor environment and outdoor environments, and you'll learn to harness those to improve your brain and body.
在今天的节目结束时，您将拥有一个基于证据的策略工具包，它将改变您与室内环境和室外环境的关系，并且您将学习利用这些策略来改善您的大脑和身体。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Mark Berman.
现在我与马克·伯曼博士进行讨论。
Dr. Mark Berman, welcome.
马克·伯曼博士，欢迎光临。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Great to be here, Andrew.
很高兴来到这里，安德鲁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love being out in nature, so I'm excited about today's conversation, which is taking place indoors.
我喜欢户外大自然，所以我对今天在室内进行的谈话感到很兴奋。
But we're going to talk about the relationship between the mind, the brain, nature, stress, rumination, and this incredible power that interactions with the natural world can have on our brain.
但我们要讨论思想、大脑、自然、压力、沉思之间的关系，以及与自然世界的相互作用对我们大脑产生的不可思议的力量。
As we wade into this, I'd like to start with this issue of recapturing our attentional abilities, because I think nowadays, everybody, whether they're clinically diagnosed with ADHD or they are just a human being on the planet, feels as if their attention is being pulled in different directions, sometimes without our awareness, sometimes with our awareness.
当我们深入讨论这个问题时，我想从重新获得我们的注意力能力这个问题开始，因为我认为现在，每个人，无论他们是被临床诊断为多动症还是只是地球上的一个人，都会感觉他们的注意力被拉向不同的方向，有时我们没有意识到，有时我们有意识。
What is this notion of recapturing attention?
重新吸引注意力的概念是什么？
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah, I think it's a really fundamental concept, and we think that attention, maybe on the surface of it, people just think about, oh, it's kids trying to pay attention in school, or, oh, it's trying to pay attention at work, but it's actually deeper than that.
是的，我认为这是一个非常基本的概念，我们认为注意力，也许从表面上看，人们只是想，哦，这是孩子们试图在学校集中注意力，或者，哦，这是试图在工作中集中注意力，但实际上比这更深层次。
We think that elements of attention are sort of involved in controlling all of our behaviors.
我们认为注意力元素在某种程度上参与了我们所有行为的控制。
And when our attention is depleted, we don't have as much impulse control.
当我们的注意力耗尽时，我们就无法控制冲动。
We might behave more aggressively.
我们可能会表现得更加激进。
We may not be able to achieve our goals.
我们可能无法实现我们的目标。
And with a lot of things in the modern world, our attention is just being fatigued and we're depleted, and it's really hard to recharge the battery or know what to do to recharge the battery.
现代世界的很多事情，我们的注意力都在疲劳和耗尽，而且很难给电池充电或知道如何给电池充电。
And I think that's kind of the entry point why I sort of got interested in this and one of my mentors, Steve Kaplan, would talk about this directed attention fatigue problem that a lot of us are facing.
我认为这就是我对此感兴趣的切入点，我的导师之一史蒂夫·卡普兰（Steve Kaplan）会谈论我们很多人都面临的定向注意力疲劳问题。
Our ancestors thousands of thousands of years ago were not bombarded with so much information like we are now.
几千年前，我们的祖先并没有像我们现在一样受到如此多的信息轰炸。
Now, the modern human has to sort of pick and choose what to pay attention to, and it's kind of overwhelming.
现在，现代人必须挑选要关注的内容，这有点让人不知所措。
And Steve Kaplan had this idea that humans have two different kinds of attention.
史蒂夫·卡普兰（Steve Kaplan）认为人类有两种不同的注意力。
So one kind of attention is called directed attention, and that's kind of the attention that I've been talking about just recently here, and that's the kind of attention where you, as the individual person, are deciding what to pay attention to.
因此，一种注意力称为定向注意力，这就是我最近在这里谈论的注意力，这就是你作为个人决定要注意什么的注意力。
So presumably, Andrew, you're deciding to pay attention to what I'm saying even though there's many other things you could find that might be more inherently interesting than what I'm saying.
因此，安德鲁，你可能决定关注我所说的内容，尽管你可能会发现许多其他事情可能比我所说的更有趣。
And this is a very unique human capability.
这是人类非常独特的能力。
There might be other species that can decide what to pay attention to, but we're really good at it.
可能还有其他物种可以决定要注意什么，但我们真的很擅长。
Humans are really, really good at being able to focus on this lecture or focus on reading this paper or focus on trying to finish this math problem, but we can't do it forever.
人类真的非常擅长能够专注于这场讲座或专注于阅读这篇论文或专注于尝试完成这个数学问题，但我们不能永远这样做。
And I think everybody has had that sensation where at the end of a long workday, maybe 3 or 4 o'clock, you might be just staring at the computer screen and you can't focus anymore.
我想每个人都有过这样的感觉，在漫长的工作日结束时，也许是下午 3 点或 4 点，你可能只是盯着电脑屏幕，再也无法集中注意力。
And we call that a directed attention fatigue state, where you can't really control your attentional focus anymore.
我们称之为定向注意力疲劳状态，在这种状态下，你无法真正控制自己的注意力焦点。
And I see this all the time when I'm lecturing at the University of Chicago, and I think I'm a decent lecturer.
当我在芝加哥大学授课时，我一直看到这一点，我认为我是一位不错的讲师。
First five minutes of class, all the students' eyes are on me.
上课的前五分钟，所有学生的目光都集中在我身上。
They're engaged.
他们订婚了。
I see they're nodding along with me.
我看到他们也在跟我一起点头。
And 45 minutes into my lecture, I kind of see people nodding back like this.
在我演讲 45 分钟后，我看到人们像这样点头回应。
They're getting tired.
他们累了。
It's just hard for people to direct their attention for long periods of time.
人们很难长时间集中注意力。
So that's the special attention, directed attention.
这就是特别关注，定向关注。
We think there's this other kind of attention that we call involuntary attention, and that's the kind of attention that's automatically captured by interesting stimulation in the environment.
我们认为还有另一种注意力，我们称之为非自愿注意力，这种注意力是通过环境中有趣的刺激自动捕获的。
So bright lights, loud noises, those things automatically capture our attention, and we don't really have much control over it.
明亮的灯光、响亮的噪音，这些东西会自动吸引我们的注意力，而我们对此并没有太多的控制能力。
And we think that kind of attention, this involuntary attention, is less susceptible to fatigue or depletion.
我们认为这种注意力，这种不自觉的注意力，不太容易疲劳或耗尽。
So you don't often hear people say, "Oh, I can't look at that beautiful waterfall anymore, it's just too interesting.
所以你不会经常听到人们说：“哦，我再也看不到那个美丽的瀑布了，它太有趣了。
I've got to step away." Or, "Oh, I have to stop watching this movie.
我必须离开。”或者，“哦，我必须停止看这部电影了。
It's just too interesting.
实在是太有趣了。
I'm too tired out." So that's a different kind of attention, and we think what's happening in modern times is that our directed attention is being fatigued, but maybe we can restore directed attention by going into environments that can softly capture our involuntary attention.
我太累了。”所以这是一种不同类型的注意力，我们认为现代发生的情况是我们的定向注意力正在疲劳，但也许我们可以通过进入可以轻轻捕捉我们不自觉注意力的环境来恢复定向注意力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do we know the basis of attentional fatigue?
我们知道注意力疲劳的根源吗？
I could imagine it's something in the noradrenergic dopamine, catecholamine world.
我可以想象这是去甲肾上腺素能多巴胺、儿茶酚胺世界中的某种东西。
Listeners of this podcast will recognize those terms, at least crudely.
这个播客的听众会认识这些术语，至少是粗略地认识。
I could also imagine that it's literally a fatigue of the visual system and/or the auditory system.
我还可以想象这实际上是视觉系统和/或听觉系统的疲劳。
It's hard to maintain fixation, as we say-
正如我们所说，保持固定是很困难的——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as visual neuroscientists.
作为视觉神经科学家。
To focus on a target-
专注于一个目标——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is challenging.
具有挑战性。
If we allow our eyes to rest, it actually gets easier to look back at it and fixate on a target.
如果我们让眼睛休息，实际上会更容易回头看并注视目标。
So what is the basis of the attentional fatigue for this focused attention, or what you call directed attention?
那么这种集中注意力，或者你所说的定向注意力，注意力疲劳的基础是什么？
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah, it's a really great question.
是的，这是一个很好的问题。
I'm not sure I have a great answer yet.
我还不确定我有一个很好的答案。
Maybe you'd have some ideas, Andrew.
也许你会有一些想法，安德鲁。
One thing that sort of to me puzzles me a little bit about the brain is that from my understanding, it's like brain metabolism is 20% of overall metabolism no matter what people are doing, except for really extreme exercise, where brain metabolism goes down a little bit.
让我对大脑有点困惑的一件事是，根据我的理解，无论人们在做什么，大脑的新陈代谢都占整体新陈代谢的 20%，除了真正的极限运动，在这种情况下，大脑的新陈代谢会稍微下降。
But if you're asleep or if you're doing a hard calculus problem, I think the brain is still using 20% of metabolism.
但如果你睡着了或者正在做一道困难的微积分问题，我认为大脑仍在使用 20% 的新陈代谢。
So it's sort of this puzzle, why do we get this mental fatigue state?
所以这是一个谜题，为什么我们会出现这种精神疲劳状态？
It's got to have some kind of neurological component.
它一定有某种神经学成分。
At this point, I can't point to it, so I'm going to talk about it more at the psychological level.
到这里我还不能指点，所以我就从心理层面多讲讲。
It's a sensation that we have that we can't focus anymore.
这是一种我们无法再集中注意力的感觉。
If I was to talk about brain areas, I would say probably this ability to direct attention is most likely in frontal cortex, whereas this involuntary attention, sometimes we call it more bottom-up attention or exogenous attention, where it's activated by external stimulation, I would say that's probably more activated by things in the parietal cortex or even occipital cortex or auditory cortex, depending on what that external stimulation is.
如果我要谈论大脑区域，我会说这种引导注意力的能力最有可能出现在额叶皮层，而这种无意识的注意力，有时我们称之为自下而上的注意力或外源性注意力，它是由外部刺激激活的，我想说这可能更容易被顶叶皮层甚至枕叶皮层或听觉皮层的事物激活，具体取决于外部刺激是什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not going to lean everything on the visual system, but I've been listening to this book that unfortunately is only available as an audiobook called "Daily Rituals," which it's got two-minute chapters, and it describes the daily rituals of writers and artists and creatives.
我不会把一切都依赖于视觉系统，但我一直在听这本书，不幸的是，这本书只有一本名为“每日仪式”的有声读物，它有两分钟的章节，它描述了作家、艺术家和创意人员的日常仪式。
And it's very interesting that across many of those chapters, you find the same thing, which is that almost all of these people had a ritual of taking some stimulant, typically caffeine, sometimes more aggressive stimulants, but caffeine, and then something to restrict their visual world, make it more tunnel vision.
非常有趣的是，在许多章节中，你会发现同样的事情，那就是几乎所有这些人都有服用一些兴奋剂的习惯，通常是咖啡因，有时是更具攻击性的兴奋剂，但咖啡因，然后是一些限制他们视觉世界的东西，让他们的视野更加狭隘。
In fact, there are certain painters, I forget the particular painter that they described, who literally built cardboard blinders onto his glasses when things weren't going so well.
事实上，有一些画家，我忘记了他们所描述的特定画家，当事情进展不顺利时，他实际上在他的眼镜上盖了纸板眼罩。
Now, the reason I bring this up is not as a suggestion, although I suppose it could.
现在，我提出这个问题的原因并不是作为建议，尽管我认为可以。
I actually used to read papers.
其实我以前也是看论文的。
Maybe I need to go back to this.
也许我需要回到这个话题。
I'd put a baseball cap on, put a hoodie on, and you-
我会戴上棒球帽，穿上连帽衫，然后你——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
restrict your visual world.
限制你的视觉世界。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it makes perfect sense if, in fact, involuntary attention, which presumably comes from the periphery-
事实上，如果非自愿的注意力（大概来自外围），这是完全有道理的——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is inexhaustible.
是取之不尽、用之不竭的。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I think what's interesting about the digital interface-
所以我认为数字接口的有趣之处是-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that we exist in now is that the whole world is brought right in front of us.
我们现在所处的状态是整个世界都呈现在我们面前。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So presumably, we evolved to move through space and direct our attention to particular locations and let the rest of the world fall away.
因此，据推测，我们进化到可以在太空中移动，并将注意力集中在特定位置，而让世界其他地方消失。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then involuntary attention could grab us to-
然后不自觉的注意力就会吸引我们——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
alert us to people showing up-
提醒我们有人出现-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or danger or the smell of something-
或危险或某物的气味-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
wafting by, calling us for dinner.
飘过，叫我们吃饭。
But now it's all placed right in our central visual field.
但现在它都位于我们的中央视野中。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it makes sense that we would all be very challenged with maintaining directed attention-
因此，我们都面临着保持定向注意力的巨大挑战，这是有道理的——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
within that small tunnel vision.
在那狭小的隧道视野内。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes.
是的。
And I would say something else too.
我还要说点别的。
I guess if you felt like you had to create an isolation chamber sort of thing to focus your directed attention, that's where we would say it's probably time to take a break, that that's when we might recommend that you go for a walk in nature to recharge this precious directed attention resource.
我想如果你觉得你必须创建一个隔离室之类的东西来集中你的定向注意力，那么我们会说可能是时候休息一下了，那时我们可能会建议你去大自然中散步，为这种宝贵的定向注意力资源充电。
So that might be a signal.
所以这可能是一个信号。
If you're just having a really hard time focusing, yeah, you can try to power through, but I think that might not be the most productive.
如果你真的很难集中注意力，是的，你可以尝试克服困难，但我认为这可能不是最有成效的。
That might be a signal to you to say, "Hey, maybe I got to go take a break." And the break better not be scrolling on social media.
这可能是一个信号，让你说：“嘿，也许我得去休息一下。”休息时间最好不要在社交媒体上滚动。
We're saying a really good break is actually a walk in nature or some kind of interaction with nature.
我们说真正好的休息实际上是在大自然中散步或与大自然进行某种互动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Helix Sleep.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 Helix Sleep。
Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep needs.
Helix Sleep 生产根据您独特的睡眠需求定制的床垫和枕头。
Now, I've spoken many times before on this and other podcasts about the fact that getting a great night's sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance.
现在，我之前已经在这个播客和其他播客中多次谈到这样一个事实：睡个好觉是心理健康、身体健康和表现的基础。
Now, the mattress you sleep on makes a huge difference in the quality of sleep that you get each night.
现在，您所睡的床垫会对您每晚的睡眠质量产生巨大影响。
How soft it is or how firm it is all play into your comfort and need to be tailored to your unique sleep needs.
它的柔软度或硬度都会影响您的舒适度，并且需要根据您独特的睡眠需求进行定制。
If you go to the Helix website, you can take a brief two-minute quiz, and it will ask you questions such as, "Do you sleep on your back, your side, or your stomach?" "Do you tend to run hot or cold during the night?" Things of that sort.
如果你访问 Helix 网站，你可以做一个两分钟的简短测验，它会问你一些问题，比如“你睡的是仰卧、侧卧还是俯卧？” “你晚上容易发热还是怕冷？”诸如此类的事情。
Maybe you know the answers to those questions, maybe you don't.
也许您知道这些问题的答案，也许您不知道。
Either way, Helix will match you to the ideal mattress for you.
无论哪种方式，Helix 都会为您匹配理想的床垫。
For me, that turned out to be the Dusk mattress.
对我来说，那是黄昏床垫。
I started sleeping on a Dusk mattress about three and a half years ago, and it's been far and away the best sleep that I've ever had.
大约三年半前，我开始睡在 Dusk 床垫上，这无疑是我睡过的最好的睡眠。
If you'd like to try Helix Sleep, you can go to helixsleep.com/huberman, take that two-minute sleep quiz, and Helix will match you to a mattress that's customized to you.
如果您想尝试 Helix Sleep，可以访问 helixsleep.com/huberman，参加两分钟的睡眠测验，Helix 将为您匹配适合您的床垫。
Right now, Helix is giving up to 27% off all mattress orders.
目前，Helix 为所有床垫订单提供高达 27% 的折扣。
Again, that's helixsleep.com/huberman to get up to 27% off.
再次强调，helixsleep.com/huberman 提供高达 27% 的折扣。
Today's episode is also brought to us by BetterHelp.
今天的节目也是由 BetterHelp 为我们带来的。
BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online.
BetterHelp 提供由持证治疗师完全在线进行的专业治疗。
I've been doing weekly therapy for over 30 years.
我每周进行一次治疗已经有 30 多年了。
Initially, I didn't have a choice.
最初，我别无选择。
It was a condition of being allowed to stay in school.
这是被允许留在学校的一个条件。
But pretty soon I realized that therapy is an extremely important component to overall health.
但很快我就意识到治疗对于整体健康来说是极其重要的组成部分。
In fact, I consider doing regular weekly therapy just as important as getting regular exercise, which of course, I also do every week.
事实上，我认为每周定期进行治疗与定期锻炼一样重要，当然，我每周也会进行锻炼。
There are essentially three things that great therapy provides.
伟大的治疗本质上可以提供三件事。
First of all, great therapy provides a great rapport with somebody that you can trust and talk to about any and all issues with.
首先，良好的治疗可以与您可以信任的人建立良好的融洽关系，并可以与您谈论任何和所有问题。
Second of all, great therapy provides support in the form of emotional support or directed guidance.
其次，出色的治疗以情感支持或定向指导的形式提供支持。
And third, expert therapy can provide useful insights.
第三，专家治疗可以提供有用的见解。
Those insights can allow you to make changes to improve your life in immeasurable ways, not just your emotional life and your relationship life, but also your professional life.
这些见解可以让你做出改变，以不可估量的方式改善你的生活，不仅是你的情感生活和人际关系生活，还有你的职业生活。
With BetterHelp, they make it very easy to find an expert therapist you resonate with and that can provide you these benefits that come through effective therapy.
通过 BetterHelp，他们可以很容易地找到与您产生共鸣的专家治疗师，并且可以通过有效的治疗为您提供这些好处。
Also, because BetterHelp allows for therapy to be done entirely online, it's extremely time efficient and easy to fit into a busy schedule.
此外，由于 BetterHelp 允许完全在线进行治疗，因此非常节省时间，并且很容易适应繁忙的日程。
If you'd like to try BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month.
如果您想尝试 BetterHelp，请访问 betterhelp.com/huberman，第一个月可享受 10% 的折扣。
Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman.
再说一次，这是 betterhelp.com/huberman。
I want to talk about interaction with nature.
我想谈谈与自然的互动。
I just want to-- It's not a pushback on what you just said, but maybe just to probe a little bit deeper.
我只是想——这并不是对你刚才所说的话的反驳，而也许只是想更深入地探讨一下。
I think a lot of people struggle with getting into a focused state at the outset.
我认为很多人一开始就很难进入专注状态。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I myself am familiar with the sitting down to do some work and it taking some time to kind of warm up and that-
我自己也很熟悉坐下来做一些工作，需要一些时间来热身，而且-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
agitation.
搅动。
I always think about it as literally climbing over or through-
我总是认为它实际上是攀爬或穿过-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
barbed wire.
带刺铁丝网。
Sometimes it actually feels like that, right?
有时确实有这样的感觉，对吧？
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then at either side of the barbed wire is a steep slope.
然后铁丝网的两边都是陡峭的斜坡。
On one side is distraction that can come from-
一方面是分心可能来自-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
surfing the web or social media.
上网或社交媒体。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then on the other side is any sort of drama.
另一方面就是各种戏剧。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then, of course, our mind starts creating all these things that we think we need to do, and the idea is to get through the barbed wire.
然后，当然，我们的思想开始创造所有我们认为需要做的事情，而这个想法就是穿过铁丝网。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then on the other side of it is that focused state.
另一方面是专注状态。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For most people, I think what I described is not terribly different from that.
对于大多数人来说，我认为我所描述的与此并没有太大不同。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm making a lot of assumptions here, but I don't know many people that can just sit down to work-
我在这里做了很多假设，但我不知道有多少人可以坐下来工作-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
No, and just-
不，只是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and just drop in-
然后就进去-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
like a-
就像一个-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
like a trench.
就像一条战壕。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can you do that?
你能做到吗？
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
No, but I can do it better after a walk in nature.
不，但在大自然中散步后我可以做得更好。
So I think almost like the walk in nature is sort of like a preparatory kind of process.
所以我认为在大自然中行走几乎就像是一个准备过程。
Just like thinking about like lifting weights or something like that.
就像思考举重或类似的事情一样。
You wouldn't start off a workout and say, "Oh, let's put 250 on the bench and start going."
你不会在开始锻炼时说：“哦，让我们把 250 磅放在板凳上然后开始吧。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Correct.
正确。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
You warm up.
你热身一下。
You got to wake up your nervous system a little bit, and I think that's kind of a little bit what we think interacting with nature is kind of doing.
你必须稍微唤醒你的神经系统，我认为这就是我们认为与自然互动的一点点。
It's not a passive process.
这不是一个被动的过程。
We're not saying, "Go and sit in a dark room for 30 minutes and then start to go to work." No. We're saying, we want you to be interacting with nature.
我们并不是说，“去黑暗的房间里坐 30 分钟，然后开始工作。”不。我们是说，我们希望您与大自然互动。
We want you to notice nature.
我们希望您关注大自然。
We want your involuntary attention to be automatically captured by the stimulation of nature.
我们希望您不自觉的注意力会自动被大自然的刺激所吸引。
And then after you've kind of been sufficiently recharged, then we think you're going to be able to go back to your desk and be able to direct attention and be able to focus.
然后，在您充分充电后，我们认为您将能够回到办公桌前，能够集中注意力并集中注意力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So let's talk about some of the data around what walks in nature and interactions with other components of nature can do for our cognition and our level of focus.
那么，让我们来谈谈一些关于自然界中行走的东西以及与自然界其他组成部分的相互作用对我们的认知和注意力水平的影响的一些数据。
I think intuitively people will appreciate, okay, a nice walk in nature, not looking at one's phone.
我认为直觉上人们会欣赏，好吧，在大自然中散步，而不是看手机。
It's very pleasant, it's relaxing, and then you get back to your desk, and you can really focus.
这是非常愉快、令人放松的，然后你回到办公桌前，你就能真正集中注意力。
What about the laboratory data that support this, or out-of-laboratory data that support this?
支持这一点的实验室数据或支持这一点的实验室外数据怎么样？
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe you could describe a few of the incredible studies that you've done, because they are really incredible, and they're very pioneering in the way that you've brought real laboratory technology into nature as well.
也许你可以描述一下你所做的一些令人难以置信的研究，因为它们确实令人难以置信，而且它们在将真正的实验室技术带入自然方面也非常具有开创性。
So pick your favorite study about this, and then I'll ask you about a few others as well.
因此，请选择您最喜欢的研究，然后我也会向您询问其他一些研究。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Sure, thanks.
当然，谢谢。
Well, I think the seminal experiment that we did was back in 2008.
嗯，我认为我们在 2008 年所做的开创性实验。
And at that time, when people did these sort of nature walk studies, they would ask people, "How do you feel after the walk?" And it was very subjective, and I'm not against subjective accounts.
当时，当人们进行此类自然步行研究时，他们会问人们：“步行后您感觉如何？”这是非常主观的，我并不反对主观叙述。
And people reported, "Yeah, I feel much more refreshed after the walk in nature." But I always felt a little bit dissatisfied by that.
人们报告说：“是的，在大自然中散步后我感觉精神焕发多了。”但我总觉得有那么一点点的不满。
I wanted to see, well, does objective performance change?
我想看看，客观表现是否会改变？
Just like we would probably be dissatisfied if I gave you a pill and I said, "This pill is going to get you stronger.
就像如果我给你一颗药丸，我们可能会不满意，然后我说：“这颗药丸会让你变得更强壮。
You're going to be able to lift more weight." And if we just had people say, "Yeah, I feel like I can lift more weight," I don't think that'd be satisfying.
你将能够举起更多的重量。”如果我们只是让人们说，“是的，我觉得我可以举起更多的重量”，我认为这不会令人满意。
We'd actually want to see, can people actually lift more weight?
我们实际上想看看，人们真的能举起更多的重量吗？
And so what we did is we designed a study that was experimentally controlled that would have objective measures.
因此，我们所做的是设计了一项通过实验控制的研究，该研究将具有客观的衡量标准。
How did people perform cognitively before and after going on a walk in nature?
人们在大自然中散步前后的认知表现如何？
So what we did is we brought people into the laboratory, and then we gave them some challenging working memory and attention tasks.
所以我们所做的就是把人们带进实验室，然后我们给他们一些具有挑战性的工作记忆和注意力任务。
So one of the tasks was called the backwards digit span task, where you would hear digits out loud at a pace of about one digit per second, and then the participant would need to repeat them back in backwards order.
因此，其中一项任务称为向后数字跨度任务，您会以每秒一位数字的速度大声听到数字，然后参与者需要以向后的顺序重复这些数字。
So if I said, "Five, six, seven," the participant would have to repeat back, "Seven, six, five." Pretty easy task at three digits, but we keep increasing the number of digits all the way till about nine digits.
因此，如果我说“五、六、七”，参与者就必须重复“七、六、五”。三位数的任务相当简单，但我们不断增加位数，直到大约九位数。
At about five digits, you're ready to pull your hair out.
大约五位数时，您就可以拔掉头发了。
It's a challenging task.
这是一项具有挑战性的任务。
So we gave participants this backwards digit span task, and then we gave them a map of a walk.
因此，我们给参与者提供了这个向后数字跨度的任务，然后给他们一张步行地图。
The first studies were through the Ann Arbor Arboretum, which was a nature walk by the psychology building at the University of Michigan, or participants went for a walk on busy Washtenaw ...
第一项研究是在安娜堡植物园进行的，这是密歇根大学心理学大楼旁的自然漫步，或者参与者在繁忙的沃什特诺散步......
street in downtown Ann Arbor.
安娜堡市中心的街道。
The walks were both about 2.6 miles, so it took people about 50 minutes to do the walk.
两条步道全长约为 2.6 英里，因此人们步行大约需要 50 分钟。
We also took participants' cell phones because we didn't want them texting or chit-chatting on the walk.
我们还拿走了参与者的手机，因为我们不希望他们在散步时发短信或闲聊。
We wanted their attention to be fully focused on the environment.
我们希望他们的注意力完全集中在环境上。
And we also did one other thing.
我们还做了另一件事。
We also gave them a GPS watch.
我们还给了他们一块 GPS 手表。
Why did we give them a GPS watch?
为什么我们给他们一块 GPS 手表？
Well, we did it for two reasons.
好吧，我们这样做有两个原因。
One, we wanted to make sure they went on the walk, they didn't just go to Starbucks.
第一，我们想确保他们去散步，而不仅仅是去星巴克。
And two, we wanted to see, do people get lost?
第二，我们想看看，人们会迷路吗？
Because if people got lost on the walk, maybe that wouldn't be restorative.
因为如果人们在散步时迷路了，也许这并不能恢复精力。
Okay, so people do the backwards digit span task.
好的，人们执行向后的数字跨度任务。
We send them on a walk in nature, or we send them on a walk through an urban environment.
我们让他们在大自然中散步，或者让他们在城市环境中散步。
They go on this 50-minute walk.
他们继续步行 50 分钟。
They come back to the lab.
他们回到实验室。
We give them that same backwards digit span task again to see if there's any performance change or not, measure that.
我们再次给他们同样的向后数字跨度任务，看看是否有任何性能变化，并进行测量。
Then we have people repeat the whole procedure again.
然后我们让人再次重复整个过程。
They come back to the lab a week later.
一周后他们回到实验室。
So if they walked in nature the first week, they walked in the urban environment the second week, or vice versa.
因此，如果他们第一周在大自然中行走，那么第二周他们就会在城市环境中行走，反之亦然。
So it's all within subject, very tight experimental control.
所以这一切都在主题内，非常严格的实验控制。
And what we found was pretty incredible, that people's working memory capacity and their ability to direct attention improved by about 20% after the walk in nature versus the walk in the urban environment.
我们发现令人难以置信的是，与在城市环境中散步相比，在大自然中散步后，人们的工作记忆能力和引导注意力的能力提高了约 20%。
And people might be thinking, well, maybe it's just because the nature walk was just more pleasant.
人们可能会想，好吧，也许这只是因为在大自然中散步更令人愉快。
They just like the nature walk more.
他们只是更喜欢在大自然中散步。
And people did tend to like the nature walk more.
人们确实更喜欢在大自然中散步。
And we did measure improvement in mood.
我们确实测量了情绪的改善。
How much did mood improve on the walk?
步行后心情改善了多少？
We didn't find very strong correlation between improvements in mood and improvements in the working memory and directed attention performance, suggesting that people weren't just getting better because they were getting into good moods.
我们没有发现情绪的改善与工作记忆和定向注意力表现的改善之间存在很强的相关性，这表明人们的好转不仅仅是因为他们进入了良好的情绪。
But the even stronger demonstration that this wasn't mood driven is that we had people walk at different times of the year.
但更强有力的证据表明，这不是情绪驱动的，我们让人们在一年中的不同时间步行。
So some of our participants walked in June when it was 80 degrees Fahrenheit.
因此，我们的一些参与者在 6 月气温为 80 华氏度时步行。
People said, "Marc, I can't believe you're paying me to go for a walk in nature." Really healthy mood benefits, really healthy working memory and attention benefits.
人们说：“马克，我不敢相信你付钱让我去大自然中散步。”真正有益于健康的情绪、真正有益于健康的工作记忆和注意力。
We also had participants walk in January, 25 degrees Fahrenheit.
我们还让参与者在 1 月 25 华氏度的温度下步行。
People said, "Marc, I was freezing my butt off out there.
人们说：“马克，我的屁股都冻僵了。
I did not enjoy that walk." But incredibly, the people that walked in January when it was freezing cold and they didn't enjoy the walk, obtained the same working memory and attention benefits as the people that walked in June.
我不喜欢那次散步。”但令人难以置信的是，一月寒冷时散步的人，他们不喜欢散步，却获得了与六月散步的人相同的工作记忆和注意力优势。
So you didn't even have to like the nature interaction to get this directed attention benefit.
因此，您甚至不必喜欢自然互动即可获得这种定向注意力的好处。
So that I thought was pretty interesting and counterintuitive, that this isn't just about liking or pleasantness.
所以我认为这非常有趣且违反直觉，这不仅仅是喜欢或愉快。
There's something deep about processing auditory, visual, maybe even tactile stimulation of nature that somehow is good for our brains and restores our ability to direct attention.
处理自然的听觉、视觉甚至触觉刺激有一些深刻的意义，这在某种程度上对我们的大脑有好处，并恢复我们引导注意力的能力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Super interesting findings, and it leads me back to this finite resource of directed attention, whatever the underlying networks and chemicals-
超级有趣的发现，它让我回到了这种有限的定向注意力资源，无论底层网络和化学物质是什么——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
happen to be.
碰巧是。
Could we speculate what might be occurring in the nature walks that is enhancing or allowing restoration of directed attention?
我们能否推测在自然漫步中可能发生的事情会增强或允许恢复定向注意力？
And I guess the neurobiologist in me wants to say, okay, I'm walking in nature.
我想我内心的神经生物学家想说，好吧，我正在大自然中行走。
That probably means some greenery, some dirt, maybe some water.
这可能意味着一些绿色植物、一些泥土，也许还有一些水。
And I could imagine one hypothesis that it's the kind of irregularity of nature environments, right?
我可以想象一个假设，那就是自然环境的不规则性，对吗？
Maybe trees are spaced out-
也许树木间隔开-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in perfect spacing, like on Palm Drive at Stanford.
完美的间距，就像斯坦福大学的棕榈大道上一样。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It looks like it speaks to the engineering department that they're set at such even intervals.
看起来它是在向工程部门表明，它们的间隔设置得如此均匀。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
But typically, when you're in the forest or nature, there's also things to break up that regularity.
但通常情况下，当你在森林或大自然中时，也会有一些东西打破这种规律。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Whereas indoor environments and city environments tend to have a lot of right angles.
而室内环境和城市环境往往有很多直角。
Buildings can be different sizes, but city blocks are pretty fixed for a given neighborhood in terms of their size.
建筑物的大小可以不同，但对于给定的社区来说，城市街区的大小是相当固定的。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So that's just one hypothesis.
所以这只是一个假设。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm coming up with this off the top of my head.
我突然想到这个。
Do we have any data, or do you have any preferential speculation as to what it is about nature in terms of its physical structure?
我们有任何数据吗？或者您对自然的物理结构有什么优先推测吗？
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And as a corollary to that, is it that nature is relaxing people and therefore they're not having to use their directed attention, and therefore directed attention capability comes back or is set at a higher level?
由此推论，是否大自然正在使人们放松，因此他们不必使用他们的定向注意力，因此定向注意力能力会回来或被设定在更高的水平？
I realize this is two questions kind of braided together, but that's what I'm curious about.
我意识到这是两个编织在一起的问题，但这就是我很好奇的地方。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah, and I think both elements are at play.
是的，我认为这两个因素都在发挥作用。
So maybe I'll start first with kind of the resting directed attention element.
所以也许我会首先从休息定向注意力元素开始。
So let's pretend we're on these walks in nature or the walk on the urban environment.
因此，让我们假设我们正在大自然中散步或在城市环境中散步。
And I'll start with the walk on the urban environment.
我将从城市环境的步行开始。
The walk in the urban environment required people to cross a lot of streets, so you had to be vigilant, so you still had to use directed attention.
在城市环境中行走需要人们穿过很多街道，所以你必须保持警惕，所以你仍然需要使用定向注意力。
It also had a lot of car traffic, so you're hearing the noise of cars whizzing by at probably 40, 45 miles per hour.
这里的汽车交通也很繁忙，因此您会听到汽车以每小时 40、45 英里的速度呼啸而过的噪音。
There's also advertising.
还有广告。
You're going by shops and billboards.
你会经过商店和广告牌。
That kind of requires some directed attention.
这需要一些有针对性的关注。
So you can't really just mind wander and let your mind kind of go in those environments.
所以你不能真的只是走神，让你的思绪在这些环境中走动。
You still have to be vigilant.
你还是要保持警惕。
You still have to use directed attention.
你仍然需要使用定向注意力。
The walk through the Ann Arbor Arboretum, you didn't have a lot of those distractions.
穿过安娜堡植物园时，您不会受到太多干扰。
So I think you only had to cross one or two streets, and then you're kind of getting towards the arboretum.
所以我认为你只需要穿过一两条街，然后你就到了植物园。
You don't have to cross any more streets.
您不必再穿过街道。
There's no advertising there.
那里没有广告。
And then, and this is a thing I want to talk about, too, this idea of soft fascination.
然后，这也是我想谈论的一件事，即软迷恋的想法。
There's all the colors, fractalness, curved edges of nature that we think sort of captures our involuntary attention in what we say is softly fascinating ways.
我们认为大自然的所有颜色、分形、弯曲边缘都以我们所说的柔和迷人的方式吸引了我们不自觉的注意力。
And we think that In combination with not placing a lot of demands on directed attention is why nature is able to restore directed attention.
我们认为，与不对定向注意力提出太多要求相结合，这就是大自然能够恢复定向注意力的原因。
So what do I mean by softly fascinating stimulation?
那么，柔和迷人的刺激是什么意思呢？
So let's pretend we're looking at a waterfall, and the waterfall is really beautiful.
假设我们正在看瀑布，瀑布真的很漂亮。
You can hear the rush of the water going down.
你可以听到水流急速下降的声音。
You can see all the bubbles and maybe some of the froth of the water going down.
你可以看到所有的气泡，也许还有一些水的泡沫落下。
It captures our attention, but we can still kind of mind wander and think about other things at the same time.
它吸引了我们的注意力，但我们仍然可以走神并同时思考其他事情。
So it doesn't really harshly capture all of our attentional resources.
所以它并没有真正严格地捕获我们所有的注意力资源。
If we're in Times Square, also super interesting.
如果我们在时代广场，也非常有趣。
Lots of interesting stimulation to look at, but it kind of captures all of our attentional resources in an all-consuming way that doesn't allow for any reflection or mind wandering or anything like that.
有很多有趣的刺激值得一看，但它以一种全力以赴的方式捕获了我们所有的注意力资源，不允许任何反思或走神或类似的事情。
So while Times Square does capture our involuntary attention, we say it does so in a very harshly fascinating way, whereas the waterfall captures our involuntary attention in a softly fascinating way.
因此，虽然时代广场确实吸引了我们不自觉的注意力，但我们说它以一种非常令人着迷的方式吸引着我们的不自觉的注意力，而瀑布则以一种柔和迷人的方式吸引了我们不自觉的注意力。
And we think that's the way that's going to be restful eventually of directed attention.
我们认为这就是通过定向注意力最终获得平静的方式。
So we think two elements created why the nature walk was restorative.
因此，我们认为有两个因素造就了自然漫步令人恢复活力的原因。
One, it didn't place as many demands on directed attention, and two, it had this softly fascinating stimulation that activated this involuntary attention, but not in an all-consuming way.
第一，它没有对定向注意力提出太多要求；第二，它有一种柔和而迷人的刺激，可以激活这种不自觉的注意力，但不是以一种全力以赴的方式。
So we think those two things are critical.
所以我们认为这两件事至关重要。
The other point that you bring up about, okay, well, what causes soft fascination to be captured or why does something capture involuntary attention in a softly fascinating way?
你提出的另一点是，好吧，是什么导致了柔和的魅力被捕捉到，或者为什么某些东西会以柔和的迷人方式吸引不自觉的注意力？
And that gets really interesting where we think it could be elements of the structure of nature.
当我们认为它可能是自然结构的元素时，这变得非常有趣。
So it's interesting, Andrew, that we can get these effects of nature improving cognitive performance, people just looking at pictures of nature versus looking at pictures of urban scenes, listening to nature sounds versus listening to urban sounds, watching nature videos versus watching urban videos.
所以有趣的是，安德鲁，我们可以通过自然的这些影响来改善认知表现，人们只是看自然图片与观看城市场景的图片，聆听自然声音与聆听城市声音，观看自然视频与观看城市视频。
So there you don't have to worry about getting hit by a car.
所以在这里你不用担心被车撞到。
There's something about the visual aesthetic of nature that we think is producing some of those benefits, that somehow our brain maybe processes that fractal stimulation in more efficient or easier ways than what you were talking about, the 90-degree angled built environment that we've constructed.
我们认为自然的视觉美感正在产生一些好处，不知何故，我们的大脑可能以比你所说的更有效或更简单的方式处理分形刺激，即我们构建的 90 度角建筑环境。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have to ask, if you are exposing people to nature images versus urban environment images in the laboratory and seeing some of these same effects, are you presenting that on a typical small screen right in front of somebody, or is it in panorama?
我不得不问，如果你在实验室里让人们接触自然图像和城市环境图像，并看到其中一些相同的效果，你是在某人面前的典型小屏幕上呈现它，还是以全景形式呈现？
I'm headed in a particular direction-
我正朝着一个特定的方向前进——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Okay
好的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with this question because I have a pet hypothesis as to what nature could be doing to not deplete directed attention.
提出这个问题是因为我有一个假设，即大自然可以采取什么措施来不消耗定向注意力。
But before I ask you about that, I'm just curious what the experimental setup is.
但在我问你这个问题之前，我只是好奇实验装置是什么。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm also asking because I'm a little concerned that people are going to hear, "Oh, great.
我问这个问题也是因为我有点担心人们会听到，“哦，太好了。
I can just look at a picture of a forest." "I don't have to get outside." And as you mentioned, there are so many things in an actual nature environment that provide a rich experience of soundscape, et cetera.
我可以看一张森林的照片。” “我不必出去。”正如您所提到的，在实际的自然环境中，有很多东西可以提供丰富的音景体验等。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But what's the format?
但格式是什么？
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So it's basically the same format as the walk, the walking study that I described.
所以它基本上与我描述的步行研究的形式相同。
So people come into the lab.
于是人们就走进了实验室。
We give them the backwards digit span task, but then we take them into a room in the lab where they just have a computer screen that's flipping through nature scenes or urban scenes.
我们给他们向后的数字跨度任务，但然后我们把他们带到实验室的一个房间，在那里他们只有一个电脑屏幕，可以翻转自然场景或城市场景。
They look at the scene for a couple seconds.
他们注视着这个场景几秒钟。
We also have them rate the scene on a scale of one to three for how much they like it, just to make sure that they're awake and they're engaged with the environment.
我们还让他们对场景的喜欢程度从一到三进行评分，以确保他们是清醒的并且能够融入环境。
That whole procedure takes about 10 minutes.
整个过程大约需要 10 分钟。
They come out of the laboratory room that had the pictures, and then they take the backwards digit span task again to see if there are changes in performance.
他们从有图片的实验室出来，然后再次进行向后的数字跨度任务，看看性能是否有变化。
And then we'd have them come back to the lab a week later, repeat the whole procedure again.
然后我们会让他们一周后回到实验室，再次重复整个过程。
If they saw the nature pictures the first week, they see the urban pictures the second week, or vice versa.
如果他们在第一周看到自然图片，他们就会在第二周看到城市图片，反之亦然。
And there, even just seeing the pictures of nature, we see improvements in working memory and directed attention.
在那里，即使只是看到大自然的图片，我们也能看到工作记忆和定向注意力的改善。
However, I would caution that the effects are not as large as they are for the actual walk.
不过，我要提醒大家的是，这种影响并不像实际步行时那么大。
So it's harder, or I would say, I guess, the intervention is not as strong as actually walking in nature, right?
所以这更难，或者我会说，我猜，干预不如实际在大自然中行走那么强，对吗？
Just seeing 10 minutes of nature pictures, it's incredible that it works.
仅仅看 10 分钟的自然图片，它的效果就令人难以置信。
You can get some of these benefits, but the benefits are not as strong as they are for the real thing.
您可以获得其中一些好处，但这些好处并不像真正的好处那么强大。
And the same procedure happens when we test sounds of nature versus urban sounds.
当我们测试自然声音与城市声音时，也会发生相同的过程。
We test people with the backwards digit span task.
我们用向后数字跨度任务来测试人们。
Then we put headphones on them, play a series of nature sounds, or play a series of urban sounds.
然后我们给它们戴上耳机，播放一系列自然声音，或者播放一系列城市声音。
Then they do the backwards digit span task again.
然后他们再次执行向后的数字跨度任务。
And we find that when people listen to nature sounds, they also show improvements on working memory performance and directed attention.
我们发现，当人们聆听大自然的声音时，他们的工作记忆表现和定向注意力也会有所改善。
We don't do anything special in terms of having it being a panoramic view.
我们没有做任何特别的事情来让它成为全景。
It's basically just looking at a slideshow of nature pictures or urban pictures on a computer screen.
它基本上只是在电脑屏幕上观看自然图片或城市图片的幻灯片。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As I'm hearing this, I'm starting to wonder whether we have brain areas and/or circuits that are devoted to nature.
当我听到这个时，我开始怀疑我们是否有专门致力于自然的大脑区域和/或回路。
Which on first pass seems like kind of a crazy idea because visual perceptions and auditory perceptions are built up from their sort of elementary units, which is just nerd speak for your eye and low-level visual system cares about circles and angles.
乍一看，这似乎是一个疯狂的想法，因为视觉感知和听觉感知是由它们的基本单位建立起来的，这只是书呆子对你的眼睛的说法，而低级视觉系统关心的是圆和角度。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then your higher-level cortex-
然后是你的更高层次的皮质——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
puts it into-
将其放入-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the recognition of a person or a building, et cetera, is literally built up from elementary units.
对人或建筑物等的识别实际上是由基本单位建立起来的。
In the sound domain, it's built up from different frequencies, et cetera.
在声音领域，它是由不同的频率等组成的。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But there's something about This problem.
但是这个问题有一些东西。
Here's what's on my mind here.
这就是我的想法。
If I walk through a neighborhood, an urban neighborhood-
如果我走过一个街区，一个城市街区——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
where it's a bunch of warehouses-
那里有一堆仓库-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with some cyclone fence-
有一些旋风围栏-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and some signs, and it's a weekend, maybe it's a Sunday-
还有一些迹象，这是一个周末，也许是一个周日-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and they're all closed.
他们都关门了。
There aren't trucks coming in and out-
没有卡车进出——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and not a whole lot's happening.
并没有发生很多事情。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This reminds me of West Oakland near the shipyard on a Sunday.
这让我想起周日造船厂附近的西奥克兰。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Not a place I recommend people go, unless you really like kind of bland urban environments on a Sunday.
我不推荐人们去这个地方，除非你真的喜欢周日平淡的城市环境。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because not much is happening.
因为没有发生太多事情。
It's a shipyard.
这是一个造船厂。
Sunday, it's closed.
周日，关门了。
Versus a trail in Yosemite.
与优胜美地的一条小径相比。
I used to work up in Yosemite in the summers, but it's not one of the most magnificent trails, meaning it's not Yosemite Falls, Half Dome, or Clouds Rest-
我曾经夏天在优胜美地工作，但它不是最壮丽的步道之一，这意味着它不是优胜美地瀑布、半圆顶或云歇地-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
my favorite trail.
我最喜欢的小径。
It's a kind of barren environment.
这是一种荒芜的环境。
But there might be a meadow, and there might be a mountain.
但可能有一片草地，也可能有一座山。
You would never say, "You know, this trail up in Tuolumne that I'm on right now is, it's kind of boring."
你永远不会说：“你知道，我现在在图奥勒米的这条小路有点无聊。”
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"It's not as interesting as the peak of Clouds Rest." And arguably, it's not.
“还不如云歇峰有趣。”可以说，事实并非如此。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When you get to the top of Clouds Rest, it's like, whoa.
当你到达云歇山顶时，感觉就像是，哇。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a spiritual experience.
这是一种精神体验。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
But when we are in nature, we don't tend to think, oh, this is boring.
但当我们身处大自然时，我们不会想，哦，这很无聊。
There's nothing here.
这里什么都没有。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Even if it's fairly sparse, visually.
即使它在视觉上相当稀疏。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So as we dissect this, it can't just be density of visual stuff.
因此，当我们剖析这一点时，它不仅仅是视觉内容的密度。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There must be something additional.
一定还有一些额外的东西。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we could say, well, maybe it's the greenery.
我们可以说，好吧，也许是绿色植物。
But, I was out in the Utah desert not that long ago, and it wasn't arches or the beautiful landscapes that definitely exist out there.
但是，不久前我去了犹他州的沙漠，那里肯定不存在拱门或美丽的风景。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it was just kind of like horizon, sky-
它有点像地平线、天空——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
some sand.
一些沙子。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe a cactus or two-
也许是一两棵仙人掌——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
some rocks.
一些岩石。
But it's beautiful.
但它很漂亮。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah, right.
是的，对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you would never say, "Oh, this is boring," because it doesn't have arches.
你永远不会说，“哦，这很无聊”，因为它没有拱门。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When you get to arches, you're like, it's that much better.
当你到达拱门时，你会觉得，它好多了。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You get the point here.
你明白了。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it can't be density of visual objects.
所以它不可能是视觉对象的密度。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's pretty quiet out there in the desert.
而且沙漠里非常安静。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Except at night, when it's really quite noisy in the desert, actually, with animals-
除了晚上，沙漠里真的很吵，实际上，有动物——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and stuff, if you're lucky.
如果你幸运的话。
So what's the deal?
那么到底是怎么回事呢？
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Part of it could be evolution, to some extent.
在某种程度上，部分原因可能是进化。
Our brains evolved in nature.
我们的大脑在自然界中进化。
So is it possible that our neural machinery is just more tuned to that kind of stimulation?
那么我们的神经机制是否有可能更适合这种刺激呢？
There's no natural right angles in nature.
自然界中不存在自然的直角。
We created right angles.
我们创造了直角。
That's pretty speculative.
这很有猜测性。
And I'd want to dig in a little more about that, but I can't ignore it, that there's just something maybe fundamental with how our brains evolved, and we evolved in nature, that there's just something maybe about we just maybe more fluently process natural stimulation, and maybe we like that.
我想深入探讨这一点，但我不能忽视这一点，我们的大脑如何进化，我们在自然界中进化，这可能是一些基本的东西，我们可能更流畅地处理自然刺激，也许我们喜欢这样。
But we're starting to have some ideas.
但我们开始有了一些想法。
Soft fascination, I love it as a concept, but it still is a little bit squishy.
柔软的魅力，我喜欢它作为一个概念，但它仍然有点软。
I kind of wanted to get some kind of quantitative parameters around it.
我有点想获得一些关于它的定量参数。
So one idea that we were thinking about was that maybe nature scenes are actually more compressible than urban scenes.
因此，我们考虑的一个想法是，也许自然场景实际上比城市场景更容易压缩。
Now, what do I mean by that?
现在，我这是什么意思？
So what I mean by that is that maybe because there's repeated patterns in nature, I don't need to store all of the information.
所以我的意思是，也许因为自然界存在重复的模式，我不需要存储所有信息。
I can kind of smoosh it down into fewer bits.
我可以把它精简成更少的部分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
And that might be easier for my brain to process, whereas in a lot of urban scenes, it's not very fractal, and maybe I have to store all of that information.
这对我的大脑来说可能更容易处理，而在很多城市场景中，它不是很分形，也许我必须存储所有这些信息。
So we actually, this is one of my students, Ngoc Nguyen, we ran a JPEG compression algorithm on thousands of nature and urban scenes, and it turns out nature scenes get compressed down into fewer bits.
实际上，我的一位学生 Ngoc Nguyen，我们对数千个自然和城市场景运行了 JPEG 压缩算法，结果发现自然场景被压缩成更少的位数。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So we should, no pun intended, unpack a little bit of what you just said, because I think for people that are not familiar with thinking about neural processing-
所以我们应该，没有双关语的意思，解开你刚才所说的一些内容，因为我认为对于那些不熟悉神经处理的人来说——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and JPEGs versus TIFF files.
以及 JPEG 与 TIFF 文件。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If I may, I'm just going to give my-
如果可以的话，我只想奉献我的——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
crude rendition of this-
这个的粗略演绎-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because I was very interested in this and did some work related to this years ago.
因为我对这个很感兴趣，几年前也做过一些与此相关的工作。
But just to keep it brief, people are probably familiar with the idea that some electronic files are larger than others.
但为了简单起见，人们可能熟悉这样的想法：某些电子文件比其他文件大。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So if you have a picture that you take on a camera or your phone and you want to email it to somebody, nowadays, you would just text it, but-
因此，如果您用相机或手机拍摄了一张照片，并且想通过电子邮件将其发送给某人，现在您只需发短信即可，但是-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you might want to email it to somebody.
您可能想通过电子邮件将其发送给某人。
You can send them the TIFF version or the Photoshop version, and it's going to be a very big image-
你可以向他们发送 TIFF 版本或 Photoshop 版本，这将是一个非常大的图像 -
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or a big movie, for that matter.
或者一部大电影，就此而言。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's another way to send it, which is at a lower file resolution-
还有另一种发送方式，即文件分辨率较低 -
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but therefore takes up less memory.
但因此占用较少的内存。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It doesn't come through as this massive file-
它不会像这个巨大的文件一样出现-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that you need to go to a second-party site to download or something, and that's a JPEG.
需要去二方网站下载什么的，那就是JPEG。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The whole basis of JPEG is to take the average of pixels near one another and compress them, kind of take a best guess as to what-
JPEG 的整个基础是取彼此邻近的像素的平均值并对其进行压缩，这是一种最好的猜测——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a black pixel is probably next to another black pixel, or probably a gray pixel, but probably not a white pixel.
黑色像素可能紧邻另一个黑色像素，或者可能是灰色像素，但可能不是白色像素。
It could.
可以的。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But what it does is it takes a local averaging-
但它的作用是需要局部平均-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and then it compresses it into a JPEG, and then you send it to the other side.
然后它把它压缩成JPEG，然后你把它发送到另一端。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But on the other side, you can also unpack that image to its original high-resolution value.
但另一方面，您也可以将该图像解压缩为其原始高分辨率值。
The brain does a similar thing, and the best example that I have from the brain is the olfactory system.
大脑也做类似的事情，我从大脑中得到的最好的例子就是嗅觉系统。
Where in the olfactory system, you're breathing in tons of volatile chemicals, meaning volatile makes it sound like they're about to throw a tantrum, but they're moving through the air, you inhale them, and they're activating millions, probably, of different odorant receptors.
在嗅觉系统中，你吸入了大量的挥发性化学物质，这意味着挥发性化学物质听起来像是它们要发脾气，但它们在空气中移动，你吸入它们，它们可能会激活数百万个不同的气味受体。
But your brain compresses those down into coffee.
但你的大脑会将这些压缩成咖啡。
This is coffee, and then you unpack it as coffee.
这是咖啡，然后你把它拆开就是咖啡。
Now, if you're a coffee connoisseur, or in the case of wine or a food connoisseur, you can get into the subtle nuance-
现在，如果您是咖啡鉴赏家，或者是葡萄酒或食品鉴赏家，您可以了解微妙的细微差别 -
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and say, oh, there's a little bit more of this and a little bit more of that.
然后说，哦，还有一点这个，还有一点那个。
But you're not thinking about the individual chemical molecules.
但你没有考虑单个化学分子。
You'd say, oh, it's a little bit of a cherry flavor, or this chocolate has a little bit of a citrus, this is the-
你会说，哦，有点樱桃味，或者这种巧克力有点柑橘味，这是——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
sorts of thing.
各种各样的事情。
So that's essentially what the brain does with visual images as well.
所以这本质上也是大脑处理视觉图像的方式。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
So that's my very crude and Certainly not complete description of how bits of information are compressed as they go into the brain and then unpacked-
这就是我对信息在进入大脑时如何被压缩然后解压的非常粗略且当然不完整的描述 -
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
into what you call a perception-
进入你所谓的感知——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
That's right
没错
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or an experience.
或一次经历。
And the same thing is true of a TIFF or Photoshop file compressed to a JPEG.
对于压缩为 JPEG 的 TIFF 或 Photoshop 文件也是如此。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then you can literally uncompress that file-
然后你就可以解压缩该文件 -
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
if you have the computational capability.
如果你有计算能力。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
So one thing that I just want to add to it, the kind of compression that we were doing with the JPEG compression was lossy, meaning that the information was thrown away, you couldn't recover it.
我只想补充一点，我们使用 JPEG 压缩进行的压缩是有损的，这意味着信息被丢弃，您无法恢复它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
But that didn't really matter.
但这并不重要。
So if you showed people the image at its high resolution versus the image at its compressed or lower resolution, the human eye can't really tell the difference.
因此，如果您向人们展示高分辨率的图像与压缩或较低分辨率的图像，人眼无法真正分辨出差异。
And I think, but for the urban images, you couldn't get away with that trick.
我认为，如果不是城市图像，你就无法摆脱这个伎俩。
You needed to keep all of the original pixel values.
您需要保留所有原始像素值。
So that's what computers and our iPhones are actually doing.
这就是电脑和 iPhone 实际所做的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
And the reason why we think they can get away with that is because nature has a lot of this repeated structure, like you were talking about before, about predicting the pixel's value, and you can use that, you can capitalize that.
我们认为他们可以逃脱惩罚的原因是因为大自然有很多这种重复的结构，就像你之前谈论的那样，关于预测像素的值，你可以使用它，你可以利用它。
That means there's a lot of redundancy, so you don't need all of that information.
这意味着存在大量冗余，因此您不需要所有这些信息。
Natural images also tend to have, maybe this is going to get a little bit technical too, a lot of high-frequency spatial content.
自然图像往往还包含大量高频空间内容，也许这也有点技术性。
So a lot of little changes or little contrast changes that we don't really need.
所以很多我们并不真正需要的小变化或对比度变化。
Whereas in the urban environment, there's more of these big contrast changes that we do need.
而在城市环境中，我们确实需要更多这些巨大的对比变化。
So we think maybe the brain is, like you're saying, there's all this evidence that the brain is basically doing that.
所以我们认为也许大脑就像你说的那样，所有这些证据都表明大脑基本上就是这样做的。
And in nature, because you're walking through the nature, you can kind of throw away a lot of the information.
在大自然中，因为你正在大自然中行走，所以你可能会丢弃很多信息。
And so we think that actually might be why it's more softly fascinating and easier to process versus the urban environment.
所以我们认为这实际上可能就是为什么它比城市环境更柔和迷人、更容易处理的原因。
There's another element here, too, which we haven't got it completely yet, but which I'm very interested in.
这里还有另一个元素，我们还没有完全了解它，但我对此非常感兴趣。
So that's looking at sort of complexity of the images at the very, very low level.
所以这是在非常非常低的水平上观察图像的复杂性。
But you could also think about semantics, like the language that we use to describe a scene.
但您也可以考虑语义，例如我们用来描述场景的语言。
And when I see a nature scene, I don't have a huge language repertoire.
当我看到自然场景时，我没有丰富的语言储备。
I can say lake, tree, river, shrub, sand, desert.
我可以说湖泊、树木、河流、灌木、沙子、沙漠。
But when I'm in the urban environment, I can say Volkswagen Beetle, BMW M3, Gothic architecture.
但当我在城市环境中时，我可以说大众甲壳虫、宝马M3、哥特式建筑。
My vocabulary is so much more complex for an urban scene.
对于城市场景来说，我的词汇要复杂得多。
So one thing that we're also thinking about is maybe nature might also be more semantically simple, from a linguistic level, that I can just label it really easily, and then it allows my brain to just not have to store as much information.
所以我们也在考虑的一件事是，从语言层面来看，大自然在语义上可能也更简单，我可以很容易地给它贴上标签，然后它让我的大脑不必存储那么多信息。
Whereas in the urban environment, maybe I'm forced to label all of these objects, and it just takes up more room in our brain.
而在城市环境中，也许我被迫给所有这些物体贴上标签，而它只会占用我们大脑更多的空间。
So we also do these studies where we show people a bunch of nature scenes and urban scenes and then test their memory for the scenes.
因此，我们也进行这些研究，向人们展示一堆自然场景和城市场景，然后测试他们对这些场景的记忆。
And it turns out that people's memory for the nature scenes is worse than the urban scenes.
事实证明，人们对自然场景的记忆比城市场景要差。
So people remember-
于是人们记住了——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Perfect.
完美。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It fits.
很合适。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
It fits.
很合适。
And you might think, oh, well, you want to remember stuff, but actually, in some sense, it's measuring how just difficult it is to process.
你可能会想，哦，好吧，你想记住一些东西，但实际上，从某种意义上说，它衡量的是处理的难度。
And if it's so easy to process nature, you're just not going to remember it.
如果处理自然是如此容易，你就不会记住它。
And that, in this case, is a good thing.
在这种情况下，这是一件好事。
So we think that's also part of it, that that's also saying to us that, yeah, it's just easier to process this natural stimulation versus this urban stimulation, where you just have to attend to more stuff.
所以我们认为这也是其中的一部分，这也告诉我们，是的，与城市刺激相比，处理这种自然刺激更容易，在城市刺激中你只需要关注更多的事情。
It's more sticky.
更粘了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you have any data as to whether or not people track time better or worse when they are in natural versus urban environments?
您是否有任何数据表明人们在自然环境与城市环境中的时间追踪效果是更好还是更差？
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
So I don't have direct evidence to this, but I have a few other little pieces of evidence that I think will get us there.
所以我没有直接的证据来证明这一点，但我有一些其他的小证据，我认为这些证据可以帮助我们实现这一点。
So we've done some studies where we send people, this one was actually sending people to a nature arboretum, an indoor nature arboretum, the Garfield Conservatory, a really beautiful conservatory in Chicago, versus the Chicago Water Tower Mall, a very fancy indoor mall in Chicago.
所以我们做了一些派人的研究，这实际上是派人去自然植物园，一个室内自然植物园，加菲猫温室，芝加哥一个非常美丽的温室，与芝加哥水塔购物中心，芝加哥一个非常漂亮的室内购物中心。
And we actually gave participants here cell phones that we had in the lab that would ping them, and ask them questions while they were going on the walk in the conservatory, the walk in the mall.
我们实际上给参与者提供了我们在实验室里拥有的手机，可以对他们进行 ping 操作，并在他们在温室散步、在商场散步时向他们提问。
And we asked them, "What are you thinking about?" And it turns out when people are walking in nature, they actually think more about the past than walking in the mall.
我们问他们：“你们在想什么？”事实证明，当人们在大自然中行走时，他们实际上比在商场里行走更多地思考过去。
So that was kind of interesting.
这很有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
This is also kind of interesting.
这也是一件很有趣的事情。
People also said that they felt more impulsive in the mall than in the conservatory, which makes sense.
人们还表示，他们在商场里比在温室里更容易冲动，这是有道理的。
Mall designers want people to be buying things.
购物中心设计师希望人们能够购物。
But this idea about thinking about the past, to me, suggested a little bit that time might be going a bit slower.
但对我来说，这种思考过去的想法暗示着时间可能会走得慢一些。
Other people have found in cities that the larger the city is, people walk faster.
其他人在城市中发现，城市越大，人们走得越快。
The pace of everything is a little bit faster.
一切的节奏都快了一些。
So my hunch is that based on those two findings, that I think time does probably slow down in nature, but I don't have direct evidence for that.
所以我的预感是，根据这两项发现，我认为时间本质上可能会变慢，但我没有直接证据证明这一点。
I think that's something that'd be really super interesting to study.
我认为这真的是非常有趣的研究。
But that would be my hypothesis, that in nature, time does slow down a bit.
但这是我的假设，在自然界中，时间确实会变慢一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you had to wager a guess, would you assume that going into an art gallery is more similar to taking a walk in nature or an urban environment?
如果你必须猜测，你会认为进入美术馆更类似于在大自然或城市环境中散步吗？
It's so rich with information.
它的信息非常丰富。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You have options.
你有选择。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You have to decline certain things-
你必须拒绝某些事情——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
certain rooms, certain paintings, certain sculptures.
某些房间、某些绘画、某些雕塑。
There's a lot of decision-making.
有很多决策。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And yet most people find galleries-
然而大多数人发现画廊——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
big galleries to be extremely calming.
大画廊非常平静。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe it's also because everyone's quite quiet in them.
或许也是因为大家都比较安静吧。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
I would say the gallery would have a similar effect to nature, would be my guess.
我猜画廊会产生与自然类似的效果。
Because Kaplan's Attention Restoration Theory Really is not specific to nature.
因为卡普兰的注意力恢复理论确实不是针对自然的。
It basically just says you got to find an environment that doesn't place a lot of demands on directed attention while simultaneously having softly fascinating stimulation.
它基本上只是说你必须找到一个不会对定向注意力提出太多要求，同时又具有柔和迷人刺激的环境。
And an art gallery might meet those two criteria.
美术馆可能满足这两个标准。
If you don't have to be tested on the artwork and you can just kind of go there and you don't have an agenda, I think there's going to be a lot of very softly fascinating stimulation in an art gallery.
如果你不需要对艺术品进行测试，你可以直接去那里，而且你没有日程安排，我认为美术馆里会有很多非常柔和迷人的刺激。
So my hunch would be that, yeah, walking through an art gallery might have a similar kind of effect.
所以我的直觉是，是的，穿过美术馆可能会产生类似的效果。
This is going to be a little bit of a jump.
这将是一个小小的跳跃。
There are some studies that we did where we were looking at the relationship between park visits and crime and going to a museum versus crime.
我们做了一些研究，研究公园游览与犯罪之间的关系以及去博物馆与犯罪之间的关系。
There's been a lot of actually interesting studies suggesting that interacting with nature can make people less aggressive, and we think it has to do with attention.
有很多有趣的研究表明，与自然互动可以降低人们的攻击性，我们认为这与注意力有关。
So we had this incredible data set, this cell phone trace data set where from 100,000 people in Chicago, we knew where they lived, and we knew where they went for an entire month.
所以我们有这个令人难以置信的数据集，这个手机跟踪数据集来自芝加哥的 100,000 人，我们知道他们住在哪里，我们知道他们整整一个月去了哪里。
So what we did is we quantified how many times did people leave their neighborhood and go and visit a park versus leaving their neighborhood and going to a museum or something like that.
所以我们所做的是量化人们离开他们的社区去公园和离开他们的社区去博物馆或类似的地方的次数。
And we wanted to correlate that with crime.
我们希望将其与犯罪联系起来。
And sure enough, we found that neighborhoods where people leave their neighborhood and go and visit a park, actually that predicted less crime in those neighborhoods, but the museum visits didn't predict that.
果然，我们发现人们离开自己的社区去参观公园的社区实际上预示着这些社区的犯罪率会减少，但博物馆参观并没有预测到这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this was controlled for socioeconomic background and this kind of thing?
这是因为社会经济背景和这种事情而受到控制的吗？
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Again, it's a correlational study, so I can't claim causality, but we also controlled for age, education, income, all those demographics.
再说一次，这是一项相关研究，所以我不能断言因果关系，但我们也控制了年龄、教育、收入和所有这些人口统计数据。
So there it seemed like there was something special about the park visit versus the museum visit on at least aggression.
因此，与参观博物馆相比，参观公园似乎有一些特别之处，至少在攻击性方面。
But I do believe that going through a museum might have a similar effect to nature.
但我确实相信参观博物馆可能会产生与大自然类似的效果。
I'm not sure it'll be as strong, but I think the museum maybe has a lot of the same elements that a nature walk might have.
我不确定它会不会那么强大，但我认为博物馆可能有很多与自然漫步相同的元素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think I'm just obsessively starting to drop into the trench of what sorts of things are attention depleting and what sorts of things are attentionally restorative.
我想我只是开始着迷地研究哪些事情会消耗注意力，哪些事情可以恢复注意力。
Because I personally believe that our ability to attend is like the hallmark of building a great life.
因为我个人认为，我们能够参加活动就像是建设美好生活的标志。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So much so that on hikes and walks, I will listen to audiobooks and podcasts.
以至于在远足和散步时，我会听有声读物和播客。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But there are times when, for instance, I will exercise with silence.
但有时，例如，我会安静地锻炼。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then I'll use music as something to push me through some particularly-
然后我会用音乐来推动我完成一些特别的事情——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
hard moments in the exercise, but then I'll turn it off-
练习中的困难时刻，但随后我会把它关掉-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and bring it back out.
并把它带回来。
I don't just head out the whole time-
我不只是一直出去-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
blasting music.
爆炸性的音乐。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sometimes I'll do that.
有时我会这样做。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I'm starting to become kind of an experimentalist with this idea of attention as this resource that we deplete each day.
但我开始成为一名实验主义者，将注意力视为我们每天都会耗尽的资源。
Sleep, it's restored, mostly.
睡一觉，基本就恢复了。
You go back again.
你再回去吧。
Looming in the backdrop of this conversation is a conversation about social media.
在这场对话的背景下隐约出现的是关于社交媒体的对话。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But before we go there, if you were at this point to give a best recommendation in terms of how to reset one's attentional abilities, what are the basic requirements?
但在我们讨论之前，如果您此时要就如何重置一个人的注意力能力提出最佳建议，那么基本要求是什么？
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
So I think there's a lot there, too.
所以我认为那里也有很多东西。
I think you have to be really mindful about directed attention fatigue.
我认为你必须非常注意定向注意力疲劳。
So if you're trying to study or you're at work and you're having a really hard time concentrating, I would recommend not just trying to power through.
因此，如果你正在努力学习或正在工作，并且很难集中注意力，我建议你不要只是试图强行完成。
If you have the ability and the time to take a break, I recommend that you stop and you take a break.
如果你有能力、有时间休息，我建议你停下来休息一下。
And what kind of break do I recommend you do?
我建议你进行什么样的休息？
I recommend that you go and try to find some nature and walk in nature.
我建议你去尝试寻找一些大自然，在大自然中行走。
And-
还有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What if you're having a hard time getting into a focused state at all?
如果你很难进入专注状态怎么办？
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not that you've fatigued it-
并不是你累了——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Okay
好的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that day.
那天。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So many people that I hear from-
我收到很多人的来信——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
who listen to the podcast and elsewhere will say, they get up, they-
听播客和其他地方的人会说，他们站起来，他们-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
did their best to get their sleep, they get their morning sunlight, they hydrate, they drink their caffeine, they sit down to their computer, and they just can't focus.
他们尽力入睡，享受早晨的阳光，补充水分，喝咖啡因，坐在电脑前，但就是无法集中注意力。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then they start thinking, do they have brain fog?
然后他们开始思考，他们有脑雾吗？
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do they need a nootropic?
他们需要促智药吗？
All these questions start to arise.
所有这些问题开始出现。
What are your thoughts?
你有什么想法？
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
I think in some sense, even though you might be very well slept and very well fed, you could still be in a directed attention fatigue state.
我认为从某种意义上说，即使你睡得很好，吃得很好，你仍然可能处于定向注意力疲劳状态。
So I think, yeah, if you can't concentrate right in the beginning of the morning, then you should go for a walk.
所以我想，是的，如果你早上一开始就不能集中注意力，那么你应该去散步。
That should be the first thing you should do.
这应该是你应该做的第一件事。
Or if you don't have access to nature, maybe listen to some nature sounds or watch a nature video or something like that.
或者，如果您无法接触大自然，也许可以听一些大自然的声音或观看大自然视频或类似的东西。
We find that all those things can be beneficial.
我们发现所有这些事情都是有益的。
Even looking out the window to nature can be beneficial.
即使是望向窗外的大自然也是有益的。
Looking at a picture, you've got a picture of nature here.
看一张照片，你就得到了一张自然的照片。
Looking at a picture of nature can be beneficial.
观看自然图片可能会有所帮助。
So I would say any time you're having trouble concentrating, it doesn't matter if it's at the beginning of the day or the end of the day or the middle of the day, I would recommend that you take some kind of break with nature.
所以我想说，每当你难以集中注意力时，无论是在一天的开始、结束还是中午，我都会建议你与大自然进行某种形式的休息。
And it could be simulated nature, like listening to nature sounds, watching a nature video, looking at nature pictures, or even better is if you can actually get out and interact with nature.
它可以是模拟自然，比如听自然的声音、观看自然的视频、看自然的图片，或者更好的是如果你能真正走出去与自然互动。
Because Steve Kaplan used to also talk about these other elements that might be important for a restorative environment.
因为史蒂夫·卡普兰过去也谈论过这些对于恢复性环境可能很重要的其他元素。
One was that the environment had to have extent, meaning that it had to have enough interesting things to look at.
一是环境必须有一定的范围，这意味着它必须有足够多有趣的东西可供观察。
Now, it doesn't mean that it has to be Yosemite Valley, which has incredible spatial extent.
现在，这并不意味着它必须是优胜美地山谷，它的空间范围令人难以置信。
It's huge, it's enormous.
它是巨大的，它是巨大的。
But near my office, At the University of Chicago, we have this Japanese garden, the Garden of the Phoenix.
但在我的办公室附近，在芝加哥大学，我们有一个日本花园，凤凰花园。
It might be only 100 square meters.
面积可能只有100平方米。
It's pretty small, but man, it's still got a lot of extent.
它很小，但是伙计，它仍然有很大的范围。
It's got a walking path.
它有一条步行道。
It's got a little waterfall.
有个小瀑布。
You can see Lake Michigan.
可以看到密歇根湖。
So that's one element.
这就是其中一个要素。
Another thing about the nature is that you want it to be compatible with your goals.
关于自然的另一件事是你希望它与你的目标兼容。
So what do I mean by that?
那么我这是什么意思呢？
If you've got a big exam and you haven't studied, I'm not sure going for the walk in nature's going to work.
如果你要参加一场大考试而你还没有学习，我不确定去大自然中散步是否有效。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
You better use that time to study.
你最好利用这段时间来学习。
But if you can't concentrate, trying to power through it, I don't think is going to be compatible to your goals.
但如果你无法集中注意力，试图通过它，我认为这与你的目标不符。
I think going in for the nature walk is compatible with your goals.
我认为去大自然散步符合您的目标。
So that's another thing that's going to be really important.
这是另一件非常重要的事情。
And the other concept that Steve used to talk about being important is that the environment needs to give you the sense of being away, that you're kind of removed from your current environment, almost like a change of mindset.
史蒂夫曾经谈到的另一个重要的概念是，环境需要给你一种远离的感觉，你有点脱离当前的环境，几乎就像心态的改变。
And again, that doesn't mean you have to go really, really far away, but you might want to go to a location that's not at your desk.
再说一遍，这并不意味着您必须去非常非常远的地方，但您可能想去一个不在您办公桌旁的位置。
So maybe don't sit at your desk and look at the nature pictures.
所以也许不要坐在办公桌前看自然图片。
Maybe you want to go somewhere else and look at the nature pictures.
也许您想去其他地方看看自然风光。
And this kind of distance, I think, could be helpful.
我认为这种距离可能会有所帮助。
I don't know if Cal Newport talks about this in his "Deep Work," but I've heard people talking about in an office, you might want to have a separate area of your office for deep work.
我不知道卡尔·纽波特（Cal Newport）在他的“深度工作”中是否谈到过这一点，但我听人们在办公室里谈论，你可能希望在办公室中有一个单独的区域来进行深度工作。
And I think this kind of sense of being away is related to that.
我认为这种远离感与此有关。
You kind of want to get out of your current state and go into this other environment that might be able to replenish those resources.
你有点想摆脱当前的状态，进入另一个可能能够补充这些资源的环境。
So I'm hearing that there are two sides of the coin.
所以我听说硬币有两个方面。
One is to designate an area for work that's truly for deep work.
一是指定一个真正适合深度工作的工作领域。
Yes.
是的。
I followed Cal's recommendation, and now I have an area in my basement, believe it or not, and there has never been a phone in that basement.
我听从了卡尔的建议，不管你信不信，现在我的地下室里有了一个区域，而且那个地下室里从来没有电话。
There are no phones allowed in that basement.
那个地下室不允许打电话。
Right.
正确的。
That's not a rule.
这不是规则。
Yeah.
是的。
It's not a protocol, it's a policy.
这不是协议，而是政策。
Right.
正确的。
And I remember he talked about in his-- He has this library office that he goes to, and I very much agree with that.
我记得他在他的文章中谈到过——他有一个他常去的图书馆办公室，我非常同意这一点。
Yeah.
是的。
Now I do get Internet access down there a little bit if I need to look for papers.
现在，如果我需要查找论文，我可以在那里访问互联网。
Yeah.
是的。
But I've been turning off Wi-Fi on my computer when I go down there to work.
但当我去那里工作时，我已经关闭了电脑上的 Wi-Fi。
Yeah.
是的。
And I get more done in three hours down there than I would in three weeks above ground.
我在地下三个小时内完成的工作比在地面上三周内完成的工作还要多。
Yeah.
是的。
I swear.
我发誓。
It's a huge effect.
这是一个巨大的影响。
Yeah.
是的。
The other side of the coin is this business of getting out into a different environment, and it sounds like these walks or these ventures into nature don't take terribly long.
硬币的另一面是进入不同的环境，听起来这些散步或这些进入大自然的冒险并不需要很长时间。
How long does one need to do this in order to get the enhancement in focus and working memory?
需要多长时间才能提高注意力和工作记忆力？
What do the data say?
数据说明了什么？
Yeah.
是的。
Our walking study was 50 minutes, but I've seen other studies with as little as 20 minutes you can get the effect.
我们的步行研究是50分钟，但我见过其他研究只需20分钟就可以得到效果。
For cognitive enhancement.
用于认知增强。
For cognitive enhancement.
用于认知增强。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
And there's actually been some interesting studies with kids with ADHD, and they find attention benefits for these kids with ADHD after just a 20-minute walk in nature that actually was similar to a dose of Ritalin.
实际上，针对患有多动症的孩子进行了一些有趣的研究，他们发现，在大自然中散步 20 分钟后，这些患有多动症的孩子的注意力就会得到改善，这实际上与服用利他林的剂量相似。
So that was pretty incredible.
所以这真是令人难以置信。
So it doesn't have to be super long.
所以不必太长。
And when we were doing the slideshow of nature pictures, that was only for about 10 minutes, so it doesn't have to be a really, really long immersion.
当我们播放自然图片的幻灯片时，只有大约 10 分钟，所以不必是非常非常长时间的沉浸。
There have been other studies that have suggested overall, you might want to get about two hours a week in nature.
还有其他研究表明，总体而言，您可能需要每周花大约两个小时接触大自然。
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。
AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens.
AG1 是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮料，还包含益生元和适应原。
As somebody who's been involved in research science for almost three decades and in health and fitness for equally as long, I'm constantly looking for the best tools to improve my mental health, physical health, and performance.
作为一个从事科学研究近三十年以及同样长期从事健康和健身工作的人，我一直在寻找最好的工具来改善我的心理健康、身体健康和表现。
I discovered AG1 back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since.
我早在 2012 年就发现了 AG1，那时我还没有播客，从那时起我就每天都在服用它。
I find it improves all aspects of my health, my energy, my focus, and I simply feel much better when I take it.
我发现它改善了我的健康、精力、注意力的各个方面，而且服用它后我感觉好多了。
AG1 uses the highest quality ingredients in the right combinations, and they're constantly improving their formulas without increasing the cost.
AG1 使用最优质的成分进行正确的组合，并且在不增加成本的情况下不断改进其配方。
In fact, AG1 just launched their latest formula upgrade.
事实上，AG1刚刚推出了他们最新的配方升级。
This next-gen formula is based on exciting new research on the effects of probiotics on the gut microbiome, and it now includes several clinically studied probiotic strains shown to support both digestive health and immune system health, as well as to improve bowel regularity and to reduce bloating.
这种下一代配方基于关于益生菌对肠道微生物组影响的令人兴奋的新研究，它现在包含几种经过临床研究的益生菌菌株，这些益生菌菌株显示出支持消化健康和免疫系统健康，以及改善肠道规律性和减少腹胀。
Whenever I'm asked if I could take just one supplement, what that supplement would be, I always say AG1.
每当我被问到是否可以只服用一种补充剂时，我总是说 AG1。
If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman。
For a limited time, AG1 is giving away a free one-month supply of omega-3 fish oil along with a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2.
AG1 限时免费赠送一个月的 omega-3 鱼油以及一瓶维生素 D3 加 K2。
As I've highlighted before on this podcast, omega-3 fish oil and vitamin D3 K2 have been shown to help with everything from mood and brain health, to heart health, to healthy hormone status, and much more.
正如我之前在此播客中强调的那样，omega-3 鱼油和维生素 D3 K2 已被证明对改善情绪和大脑健康、心脏健康、健康激素状态等各个方面都有帮助。
Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman to get a free one-month supply of omega-3 fish oil, plus a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2 with your subscription.
再次强调，您可以通过 Drinkag1.com/huberman 获得一个月的免费 omega-3 鱼油，以及一瓶维生素 D3 和 K2。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Our Place.
今天的节目也是由我们的地方给我们带来的。
Our Place makes my favorite pots, pans, and other cookware.
我们的地方生产我最喜欢的锅、平底锅和其他炊具。
Surprisingly, toxic compounds such as PFAS or forever chemicals are still found in 80% of non-stick pans, as well as utensils, appliances, and countless other kitchen products.
令人惊讶的是，80% 的不粘锅以及餐具、电器和无数其他厨房产品中仍然含有 PFAS 或永久化学物质等有毒化合物。
As I've discussed before on this podcast, these PFAS or forever chemicals like Teflon, have been linked to major health issues such as hormone disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems.
正如我之前在这个播客中讨论过的那样，这些 PFAS 或永久性化学物质（如特氟隆）与激素紊乱、肠道微生物群破坏、生育问题和许多其他健康问题等重大健康问题有关。
So it's really important to try and avoid them.
因此，尝试避免它们非常重要。
This is why I'm a huge fan of Our Place.
这就是为什么我是《我们的地方》的超级粉丝。
Our Place products are made with the highest quality materials and are all completely PFAS and toxin-free.
我们的 Place 产品采用最优质的材料制成，完全不含 PFAS 和毒素。
I especially love their Titanium Always Pan Pro.
我特别喜欢他们的 Titanium Always Pan Pro。
It's the first non-stick pan made with zero chemicals and zero coating.
这是第一个采用零化学品和零涂层制成的不粘锅。
Instead, it uses pure titanium.
相反，它使用纯钛。
This means it has no harmful forever chemicals and does not degrade or lose its non-stick effect over time.
这意味着它不含永久有害的化学物质，并且不会随着时间的推移而降解或失去其不粘效果。
It's also beautiful to look at.
看起来也很漂亮。
I cook eggs in my Titanium Always Pan Pro almost every morning.
我几乎每天早上都会用 Titanium Always Pan Pro 煮鸡蛋。
The design allows for the eggs to cook perfectly without sticking to the pan.
该设计使鸡蛋能够完美烹饪而不会粘在锅上。
I also cook burgers and steaks in it, and it puts a really nice sear on the meat.
我还用它来做汉堡和牛排，它给肉带来了非常好的烤焦效果。
But again, nothing sticks to it, so it's really easy to clean, and it's even dishwasher safe.
但同样，没有任何东西粘在上面，所以它非常容易清洁，甚至可以用洗碗机清洗。
I love it, and I basically use it constantly.
我很喜欢它，而且我基本上一直在使用它。
Our Place now has a full line of Titanium Pro cookware that uses its first of its kind titanium non-stick technology.
我们的地方现在拥有全系列 Titanium Pro 炊具，采用首创的钛不粘技术。
So if you're looking for non-toxic, long-lasting pots and pans, go to fromourplace.com/huberman and use the code Huberman at checkout.
因此，如果您正在寻找无毒、耐用的锅碗瓢盆，请访问 fromourplace.com/huberman 并在结帐时使用代码 Huberman。
With a 100-day risk-free trial, free shipping, and free returns, you can experience this terrific cookware with zero risk.
通过 100 天无风险试用、免费送货和免费退货，您可以零风险体验这款出色的炊具。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've been long obsessed with this difference between what happens in our brain stem, the areas involved, as you know, with levels of arousal and stress versus calm, when we look at a fixation point versus a horizon or when we go into panoramic vision.
长期以来，我一直痴迷于我们的脑干中发生的事情之间的差异，如你所知，当我们看一个注视点与地平线或当我们进入全景视觉时，所涉及的区域与兴奋和压力水平与平静水平有关。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there are now ample data to support the idea that when we fixate on a small box-
现在有足够的数据支持这样的想法：当我们关注一个小盒子时——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
like a phone or a computer, or we're fixated on something we're reading or paying attention to it, that our level of autonomic arousal creeps up.
就像手机或电脑一样，或者我们专注于我们正在阅读或关注的东西，我们的自主唤醒水平就会上升。
Doesn't creep up indefinitely, but this makes sense, right?
不会无限期地爬升，但这是有道理的，对吧？
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Visual attention-
视觉注意力——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
matches the cognitive attention.
与认知注意力相匹配。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You need arousal-
你需要唤醒——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
aka alertness, you get cognitive attention.
又名警觉性，你会得到认知注意力。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But that when we go into panoramic vision, which is for the aficionados, you can look up magnocellular vision, what you're essentially doing-
但是当我们进入全景视觉时，这是为爱好者准备的，你可以查找大细胞视觉，你本质上正在做的事情 -
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is you're taking bigger pixels of the visual environment.
是你正在获取更大的视觉环境像素。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And when we look at a horizon-
当我们眺望地平线时——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
we naturally go into panoramic vision, unless we're looking at our phone and taking a picture of the horizon.
我们自然会进入全景视觉，除非我们正在看手机并拍摄地平线的照片。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, take note.
所以，请注意。
It's interesting to me to think about visual environments such as nature that have us taking larger bins, pixels, if we're talking about visual space, but that we're also perhaps, this is a question I'm obsessed with, perhaps taking larger time bins.
对我来说，思考视觉环境（例如自然）很有趣，如果我们谈论视觉空间，我们会采用更大的垃圾箱、像素，但我们也可能，这是我痴迷的一个问题，也许会采取更大的时间垃圾箱。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What do you think about a general idea that what we need to do in order to be focused-
您认为我们需要做什么才能集中精力的总体想法如何？
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is to allow our mind to go into these time drift states?
是让我们的心进入这些时间漂移的状态？
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And I think you're talking about it from a visual perspective, but I think it's also from a cognitive, mental perspective.
我认为你是从视觉角度谈论它，但我认为这也是从认知、心理角度谈论的。
So, I think also too, being in nature kind of widens your cognitive landscape.
所以，我也认为，身处大自然中可以拓宽你的认知视野。
And that's why I think people sometimes, you hear all these anecdotes where people are struggling to solve a problem, they can't figure it out.
这就是为什么我认为人们有时会听到人们努力解决问题的所有这些轶事，但他们无法弄清楚。
They go for a walk in nature, and then boom, they solve the problem.
他们去大自然中散步，然后轰隆隆地解决了问题。
Because the brain is still churning on that, right?
因为大脑仍在思考这个问题，对吗？
But maybe being out in nature sort of inspires this widening of attentional space internally.
但也许身处大自然中会激发内部注意力空间的扩大。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We had a guest on this podcast, Michael Platt, from the University of Pennsylvania.
我们的播客邀请了一位来自宾夕法尼亚大学的迈克尔·普拉特 (Michael Platt) 嘉宾。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He's a neuroscientist, and he told us about this experiment.
他是一位神经科学家，他告诉我们这个实验。
It's pretty wild.
这真是太狂野了。
This still blows me away.
这仍然让我震惊。
You're probably familiar with it, but I wasn't, which is that if you have human subjects in a lab do a connect-the-dots task where the dots are placed very close together-
你可能熟悉它，但我不熟悉，如果你让人类受试者在实验室里做一个连接点的任务，其中这些点被放置得非常接近 -
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
versus a connect-the-dots task where the dots are placed much further apart, and then you give them a creativity task, the people who do the task, and it's well-controlled for, folks-
与连接点的任务相比，在连接点之间的距离要远得多，然后你给他们一个创造性的任务，执行任务的人，并且它对人们来说是很好的控制-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
connecting dots that are further apart in physical space show significantly elevated levels of-
连接物理空间中距离较远的点显示出显着升高的水平-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Creativity
创造力
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
creative insight to solving problems.
解决问题的创造性洞察力。
And so there's something about visual space-
所以有一些关于视觉空间的东西——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and time-
和时间-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and our ability to link things in cognitive space-
以及我们在认知空间中联系事物的能力——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and time.
和时间。
This is why when you said earlier that when you're out in nature, there aren't as many words to describe things.
这就是为什么你之前说过，当你身处大自然时，没有那么多的词语来描述事物。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What that means to me, if I think about the results that Platt was talking about, is that perhaps it isn't just that there's a dearth of language, but perhaps then your brain starts to drop into other modes of cognition.
如果我考虑一下普拉特所说的结果，这对我来说意味着，也许不仅仅是语言的缺乏，而且也许你的大脑开始陷入其他认知模式。
I don't want to sound too nerdy-
我不想听起来太书呆子-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
just to sound nerdy here, but-
只是为了听起来很书呆子，但是-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
there are all sorts of things in your brain that can't have words assigned to them.
你的大脑中有各种各样无法用语言来形容的事物。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like for instance, your childhood.
比如说，你的童年。
You could give the whole story, but it still wouldn't capture it, right?
你可以给出整个故事，但它仍然无法捕捉到它，对吗？
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But there was your trauma, there was your wins, there were your falling in love.
但有你的创伤，有你的胜利，有你的坠入爱河。
We have these words, but they don't capture the experience.
我们有这些词，但它们并没有捕捉到体验。
They don't capture the-
他们没有捕捉到-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
visceral experience, the smells, the tastes.
内心的体验，气味，味道。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so, I love the idea that in nature, things are sparse enough, yet rich enough-
所以，我喜欢这样的想法：在自然界中，事物足够稀疏，但又足够丰富——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that maybe these networks get triggered.
也许这些网络会被触发。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
And I think this is kind of another, if we want to get into the neuroscience a little bit, we have some of these ideas for what a brain looks like when it's at rest.
我认为这是另一种情况，如果我们想深入了解神经科学，我们对大脑静止时的样子有一些想法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
And, when we talk about fractalness, most of us think about a spatial fractal.
而且，当我们谈论分形时，我们大多数人都会想到空间分形。
So, if there's a snowflake, it's got a characteristic shape.
所以，如果有一片雪花，它就有一个特有的形状。
If you put that snowflake under a microscope and zoom in, it still has that same shape.
如果你把雪花放在显微镜下放大，它仍然具有相同的形状。
If you zoom in some more, it's still got that same shape.
如果再放大一些，它仍然具有相同的形状。
So, it doesn't matter at what scale you look at the snowflake, it's got the same shape.
所以，无论你看雪花的尺寸是多少，它的形状都是一样的。
So that's called, as a snowflake, a sort of scale-free spatially, or another way to say it is that it's fractal.
因此，这被称为雪花，一种空间上的无标度，或者另一种说法是它是分形的。
It's got this repeated patterning at these different spatial scales.
它在这些不同的空间尺度上有重复的图案。
And nature is filled with fractals.
大自然充满了分形。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could you tell us more about some of those?
您能告诉我们更多有关其中一些的信息吗？
I recall hearing about fractals of Mandelbrot.
我记得听说过曼德尔布罗特分形。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah, Mandelbrot.
是的，曼德尔布罗特。
Right.
正确的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That came up with fractals.
这就提出了分形。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But despite the fact that I remember Mandelbrot's name, all that tells you is that my brain is filled with meaningless information- ...
但尽管我记得曼德尔布罗特的名字，但只能告诉你我的大脑充满了毫无意义的信息——……
because what I want to know is not who came up with it, right?
因为我想知道的不是谁想出来的，对吗？
This is the problem with the hippocampus, right?
这是海马体的问题吧？
You can encode perfectly useless information.
您可以对完全无用的信息进行编码。
No discredit to Mandelbrot.
没有对曼德尔布罗特的抹黑。
But where in nature, aside from snowflakes, do fractals show up?
但是，除了雪花之外，自然界中还会出现分形吗？
Are they in tree bark?
它们是在树皮里吗？
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Everywhere.
无处不在。
I mean, a tree is also quite fractal, right?
我的意思是，一棵树也很分形，对吗？
So you have the trunk of the tree, and then it breaks off into branches, which breaks off into smaller branches, which breaks off into leaves, and the leaves have the veins that also branch off.
所以你有树干，然后它分裂成树枝，树枝又分裂成更小的树枝，这些树枝又分裂成叶子，叶子上的静脉也分叉出来。
So, it's very fractal.
所以，它非常分形。
It's got this same branching structure at all these different scales.
它在所有这些不同的尺度上都有相同的分支结构。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, when I look at sand in the desert-
所以，当我看着沙漠里的沙子时——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you're telling me that this regularity exists at every scale.
你告诉我这种规律性存在于各个尺度。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah, pretty much.
是的，差不多。
I think a desert would also be fractal in terms of how the wind, because the wind is also a fractal sort of process.
我认为沙漠就风而言也是分形的，因为风也是一种分形过程。
So, the sand will be somewhat fractal.
因此，沙子会有些分形。
A mountain scape will also be quite fractal.
山景也将是相当分形的。
A coastline will be fractal.
海岸线将是分形的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, tell me for a mountain.
好吧，告诉我一座山。
So, where am I going to look at a smaller scale?
那么，我该去哪里查看更小的规模呢？
I can see, I can imagine a mountain.
我能看到，我能想象一座山。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Mountain.
山。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Now, if you zoomed in on a different portion of the mountain, it would have some of the same structural properties as the zoomed-out version.
现在，如果你放大山的不同部分，它会具有一些与缩小版本相同的结构特性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wild.
狂野。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So, and again, to return back to compression Again, if you have this repeated patterning, that might be easier for our brain to process, because really, you just have to only kind of encode one structure, because that structure's repeated at all these different scales.
所以，再次回到压缩，如果你有这种重复的模式，我们的大脑可能更容易处理，因为实际上，你只需要编码一种结构，因为该结构在所有这些不同的尺度上重复。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Whereas human beings and advertisements and all that.
而人类和广告等等。
There's this thing in science, as you know, people are either lumpers or splitters.
正如你所知，科学中有这样的事情，人们要么是统一者，要么是分裂者。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
And many a career has been made by splitting-
许多职业都是通过分裂而成就的——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
when lumping would have been sufficient.
当集中就足够了。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Human behavior, human advertising, music, I'm sure there's immense regularity.
人类的行为、人类的广告、音乐，我相信都有巨大的规律性。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But when we're bombarded with that, now I'm sort of making the segue to something like social media-
但当我们受到这些轰炸时，现在我有点转向社交媒体之类的东西了——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
where you're just bombarded with sensory information.
在那里你会受到感官信息的轰炸。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One movement of my thumb takes me from one cognitive landscape to a completely different cognitive landscape.
我拇指的一动就把我从一种认知景观带到了一种完全不同的认知景观。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If it were my preference, my entire feed would be dogs.
如果这是我的偏好，我的全部饲料就是狗。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I'm going from dogs to politics to fitness, and then stuff that the algorithm is testing on me, and it's amazing that we can do this.
但我从狗到政治再到健身，然后是算法在我身上测试的东西，我们能做到这一点真是太棒了。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And yet, the more we talk about nature and how restorative it is
然而，我们越多地谈论自然以及它的恢复能力
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or reading a book and following a common narrative-
或读一本书并遵循共同的叙述-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
kind of drilling down into that, or watching a movie-
有点深入研究，或者看电影-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which hopefully has some continuity to the plot, the more I realize that social media is, for lack of a better word, is kind of chaos.
希望剧情有一定的连续性，但我越意识到社交媒体，由于缺乏更好的词，是一种混乱。
It's like cognitive chaos.
这就像认知混乱。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Or it's definitely not fractal.
或者它绝对不是分形的。
It's definitely not fractal.
这绝对不是分形。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well put.
说得好。
Yeah.
是的。
It's not fractal.
这不是分形。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
And if we return to fractalness, too, so we talked about fractalness in terms of space, like there's that this shape and you zoom in, same shape, zoom in some more, same shape.
如果我们也回到分形性，那么我们就空间而言讨论了分形性，就像这个形状，你放大，相同的形状，再放大一些，相同的形状。
You could also talk about fractalness in time.
你还可以谈论时间的分形。
So you can have a signal oscillating in time, fluctuating in time.
所以你可以得到一个随时间振荡、随时间波动的信号。
And you could also quantify how fractal that signal is in time.
您还可以量化该信号在时间上的分形程度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
So it's like if you look at the signal at one millisecond, 10 milliseconds, 50 milliseconds, 10 seconds, 30 seconds, an hour, does that signal look the same or does it look different?
所以，如果你观察 1 毫秒、10 毫秒、50 毫秒、10 秒、30 秒、一小时后的信号，该信号看起来是相同还是不同？
If the signal looks the same at all those different temporal windows, we say the signal is fractal in time.
如果信号在所有这些不同的时间窗口中看起来都相同，我们就说该信号在时间上是分形的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can you give me an example from a nature environment and one by comparison from an urban environment?
您能给我举一个自然环境的例子和城市环境的比较吗？
I'm thinking a car alarm in an urban environment-
我正在考虑城市环境中的汽车警报器-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is like the most alerting.
好像是最警觉的。
It grabs our involuntary attention.
它会不自觉地吸引我们的注意力。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
And it's not fractal, it's periodic.
它不是分形的，而是周期性的。
It's just wah, wah, wah, wah, over and over again.
就是哇、哇、哇、哇，一遍又一遍。
Like a fractal signal will have low frequency stuff, will have a lot of power, but it also has all of the different frequencies are represented, but their amplitude is, this is going to get a little nerdy, is proportional to their frequency.
就像分形信号一样，它会有低频的东西，会有很大的功率，但它也有所有不同频率的代表，但它们的幅度是，这会变得有点书呆子气，与它们的频率成正比。
So low frequency stuff will have higher amplitude or higher power, and high frequency stuff will have lower amplitude or lower power.
因此，低频的东西将具有较高的幅度或较高的功率，而高频的东西将具有较低的幅度或较低的功率。
And a lot of natural sounds and stuff are also more fractal, but what's interesting is that you can also look at brain signals.
许多自然声音和东西也更加分形，但有趣的是你还可以观察大脑信号。
Like I can put a person in an MRI machine and look at how are the brain areas fluctuating, or I can have an EEG cap on them and look at how their electrical activity is fluctuating.
就像我可以将一个人放入核磁共振仪中，观察其大脑区域如何波动，或者我可以给他们戴上脑电图帽，观察他们的电活动如何波动。
And it turns out when brains are more fractal in time, brains are exerting less effort, less cognitive effort.
事实证明，当大脑在时间上更加分形时，大脑就会付出更少的努力，更少的认知努力。
So it's kind of depressing, but as we age, our brains get less fractal.
所以这有点令人沮丧，但随着我们年龄的增长，我们的大脑变得不那么分形。
If you're learning a new task for a first time when it's harder, the brain is less fractal than when you're well-practiced at the task.
如果你第一次学习一项新任务，当它变得更困难时，大脑的分形性就会比你在这项任务上得到充分练习时要少。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
If you're doing an easy task, the brain is more fractal than when you're doing a harder task.
如果你正在做一项简单的任务，那么大脑会比你在做更困难的任务时更加分形。
And so we think that maybe nature is pushing the brain into this higher fractal state that might be this sort of critical rested state that's going to allow you to actually have a lot of directed attention.
所以我们认为，也许大自然正在将大脑推向这种更高的分形状态，这可能是一种关键的休息状态，这会让你实际上有很多定向注意力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When you need it.
当你需要的时候。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
When you need it.
当你需要的时候。
Versus the social media stuff is just pull and grabbing, it's not letting you get into this fractal rested state.
与社交媒体的东西只是拉扯和抓取相比，它不会让你进入这种分形的休息状态。
It's driving fractalness down.
它正在降低分形性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Well, the social media platforms, not to paint them as evil, because I teach on social media, learn on social media-
嗯，社交媒体平台，不要把它们描绘成邪恶的，因为我在社交媒体上教学，在社交媒体上学习——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
enjoy social media, but it's a business.
享受社交媒体，但它是一门生意。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're not doing it for free.
他们不是免费做的。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts.
他们这样做并不是出于内心的善良。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I basically think of social media as the reality TV show that we've all either chosen to be a part of.
我基本上认为社交媒体是我们都选择参与的真人秀节目。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We've cast ourselves in it.
我们已将自己投入其中。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The idea here is that it is not designed to be relaxing.
这里的想法是，它并不是为了放松而设计的。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's designed to capture your directed attention.
它旨在吸引您的定向注意力。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If it just grabbed your involuntary attention, it wouldn't work.
如果它只是吸引你不自觉的注意力，那是行不通的。
Now, that might seem a little bit counterintuitive because I and everybody else has the experience of picking up your phone, you're like, "Okay, I'm only going to spend a minute.
现在，这可能看起来有点违反直觉，因为我和其他人都有拿起手机的经历，你会说，“好吧，我只会花一分钟。
I'm going to just check what's on Instagram."
我只想看看 Instagram 上有什么。”
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And all of a sudden, you're taken down this-
突然之间，你就记下了这个——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
rabbit hole of one thing, and then it's 30 minutes later and you're like, "Goodness-
一件事的兔子洞，然后 30 分钟后，你会说，“天哪 -
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I got to get ready for work," or something like this.
我得准备去上班了，”或者类似的话。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the involuntary attention that you were talking about before is the kind of thing that cues you to something, and then you go down that direction.
但你之前所说的无意识的注意力是那种会提示你做某事，然后你就朝那个方向走的东西。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Or I would say that the social media, it's not softly fascinating, it's harshly fascinating.
或者我会说社交媒体，它不是柔和地令人着迷，而是非常令人着迷。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
It's grabbing you and not letting you mind wander or think about anything else.
它抓住你，不让你走神或思考其他事情。
It's grabbing all of your attentional resources.
它正在抢占你所有的注意力资源。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I would say it does that not by taking us typically down rabbit holes, but it's not like you spend a lot of time on one post.
我想说的是，它并不是让我们陷入兔子洞，而是让你在一篇文章上花费大量时间。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You might go into the comments section if you're interested in that.
如果您对此感兴趣，可以进入评论部分。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Right.
正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it's the fact that you have a, I'm imagining now that there's some resource in the brain that's a combination of catecholamines, dopamine, norepinephrine-
但事实是，我现在想象大脑中有一些资源，是儿茶酚胺、多巴胺、去甲肾上腺素的组合——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
certainly.
当然。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Plus a bunch of neural network metabolism stuff.
再加上一堆神经网络新陈代谢的东西。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It will never be one thing, right?
这永远不会是一回事，对吗？
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not going to be like a molecule.
它不会像分子一样。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Depending on how well-rested we are, we go into the day with a certain amount of directed attention units that we can spend.
根据我们休息的情况，我们会在一天中投入一定数量的定向注意力。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And everything you're telling us today is that going into a fractal, AKA nature environment, allows us to come off the sort of spending-
你今天告诉我们的一切都是，进入分形的，也就是自然环境，可以让我们摆脱这种支出——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of our directed attention.
我们的直接关注。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it also seems to reset the directed attention account.
而且它似乎还重置了定向注意力帐户。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are there any data that speak to whether or not it just allows us to not spend, or whether or not it actually replenishes this directed attention capability?
是否有任何数据表明它是否只是让我们不花钱，或者它是否实际上补充了这种定向注意力能力？
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah, it's a good question.
是的，这是一个好问题。
Or does it even extend capabilities?
或者它甚至扩展了功能？
Does it take you above your baseline?
它会让你高于你的基线吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Is it an investment?
这是一项投资吗？
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Lately, I think not so much about dopamine per se.
最近，我对多巴胺本身的思考不太多。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think about are you spending your dopamine down-
我想你的多巴胺消耗是否减少了-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or are you investing your dopamine?
或者你正在投资你的多巴胺？
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
And I would say, unfortunately, I don't have a good answer for it.
不幸的是，我想说，我对此没有一个好的答案。
I'm not sure.
我不知道。
It's possible that it might expand your store.
它可能会扩大您的商店。
You might be getting interest.
您可能会感兴趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
So one of the things too that we kind of struggle with a little bit is, is nature boosting us a lot, or is urban fatiguing us?
因此，我们有点挣扎的一件事是，大自然是否给我们带来了很大的推动，或者城市是否让我们感到疲劳？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Either depleting us, and I think both things are kind of at play there.
要么耗尽我们的精力，我认为这两件事都在起作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have a whole set of questions popping to mind about sleep states and deep sleep being more like fractal environments, and rapid eye movement sleep being more like reality and therefore more challenging.
我脑海中浮现出一系列问题，关于睡眠状态和深度睡眠更像分形环境，而快速眼动睡眠更像现实，因此更具挑战性。
But I'm going to just shelve those-
但我打算把这些搁置起来-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Okay
好的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and maybe we'll get back to them, maybe we won't.
也许我们会回复他们，也许不会。
I want to make sure that I understand correctly what the protocol, for lack of a better word, would be.
我想确保我正确理解协议（由于缺乏更好的词）是什么。
Get out into nature, ideally move-
走进大自然，最好活动一下——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for about 20 minutes minimum.
最少约20分钟。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And ideally, you remove yourself from phone.
理想情况下，您将自己从手机上移开。
What if you have to make a phone call while you're doing it?
如果您在执行此操作时必须拨打电话怎么办？
Is that-
难道是——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
I mean, that's just you don't want to do it.
我的意思是，那只是你不想这样做。
And I'd even say, too, I know you were saying you like to put the earbuds in sometimes.
我什至还要说，我知道你说你有时喜欢戴上耳机。
I would say you don't want the earbuds in.
我想说你不想戴耳机。
You want all of your attentional capacity or involuntary attention to be captured by that environment.
你希望你所有的注意力或无意识的注意力都被那个环境所吸引。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Great.
伟大的。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
I kind of joke with my students about this a little bit, where I would say, "How many of you study with listening to music?" And a lot of students raise their hand, "Yeah, I study with listening to music." I say, "Okay.
我和我的学生开玩笑说，“你们中有多少人一边听音乐一边学习？”很多学生都举手：“是啊，我是边听音乐边学习的。”我说：“好吧。
How many of you want to take the exam listening to music?" Nobody raises their hand.
你们中有多少人想一边听音乐一边考试？”没有人举手。
I say, "Well, that's not consistent."
我说：“嗯，这不一致。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
And it's not because the students are not smart, it's that studying sucks.
这并不是因为学生不聪明，而是学习很糟糕。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
And listening to music just makes it more pleasurable.
听音乐只会让人更加愉悦。
But you're taking away attentional resources that could be used for the studying by listening to music.
但你却夺走了原本可以用于听音乐学习的注意力资源。
And I think, on the flip side, I want you to be fully engaged with nature.
我认为，另一方面，我希望你充分融入大自然。
I want your involuntary attention to be just automatically captured by this nature stimulation.
我希望你的不自觉的注意力能够自动被这种自然刺激所吸引。
I don't want anything else interfering with that.
我不希望有任何其他事情干扰这一点。
I think that's how you're going to get the most bang for your buck.
我认为这就是您获得最大收益的方式。
And in fact, we did these studies where I wasn't sure how it was going to work, so we did some studies where we took participants who were diagnosed with clinical depression, and this is kind of mean but I think important, we had them walk in nature, too.
事实上，我们做了这些研究，但我不确定它是如何发挥作用的，所以我们做了一些研究，我们让被诊断出患有临床抑郁症的参与者，这有点卑鄙，但我认为很重要，我们也让他们在大自然中行走。
But before these participants went for a walk in nature, we had them think about a negative thought or memory that's been bothering them to try to induce rumination, to get them ruminating.
但在这些参与者去大自然中散步之前，我们让他们思考一个一直困扰他们的消极想法或记忆，试图引发沉思，让他们沉思。
And we thought, maybe if you go for a walk alone in nature and you're restoring your attention, maybe they're going to ruminate even more.
我们想，也许如果你独自去大自然中散步并且你正在恢复注意力，也许他们会思考更多。
That it's going to be not good.
那就不会好起来了。
Maybe it's going to hurt performance.
也许这会损害性能。
And we found just the opposite, that actually, these participants with clinical depression who we had induced to ruminate got even stronger benefits walking in nature than our non-clinical sample.
我们发现恰恰相反，实际上，这些被我们诱导沉思的临床抑郁症参与者在大自然中行走比我们的非临床样本获得了更大的好处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
On working memory.
关于工作记忆。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
On working memory.
关于工作记忆。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
And you can imagine participants that are struggling with depression and rumination, their working memory is not as good because you've got cognitive resources devoted to these negative thoughts that are just repeating over and over again.
你可以想象那些正在与抑郁和沉思作斗争的参与者，他们的工作记忆不太好，因为你有认知资源专门用于这些一遍又一遍地重复的消极想法。
You don't have your full bank account of attention because you're spending it on the rumination.
你没有把全部的注意力放在银行账户上，因为你把它花在了沉思上。
And we found that for these participants, the effects were stronger in improving their attention and working memory, and I think part of that might be that it's actually giving them some of the attentional resources necessary to deal with the rumination.
我们发现，对于这些参与者来说，改善他们的注意力和工作记忆的效果更强，我认为部分原因可能是它实际上为他们提供了一些处理沉思所需的注意力资源。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Super interesting.
超级有趣。
I know rumination is something that many people, depressed or not, struggle with.
我知道很多人，无论是否抑郁，都在与沉思作斗争。
And I've long thought, and I'm certainly coming to this conclusion with each successive year of my life, that distraction is the enemy.
我长期以来一直认为，而且在我生命中的每一年里，我肯定都会得出这样的结论：分心是敌人。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like the ability to drop into work, creative work, or for me, prepping a podcast or reading papers, or taking a walk with somebody, having a conversation with somebody, because relationships are important too, of course, and just being able to be fully present to that-
就像投入工作、创造性工作的能力，或者对我来说，准备播客或阅读论文，或与某人散步，与某人交谈，因为关系当然也很重要，而能够完全投入其中-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is really the basis of a great life.
确实是美好生活的基础。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Even if you're dealing with challenge.
即使你正在应对挑战。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's that when we spread ourselves out across all these different modalities, that no good comes of it.
当我们将自己分散到所有这些不同的模式中时，不会有任何好处。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And like any destructive force that's really bad, it's the fact that we don't notice that we were absent for large swaths of it-
就像任何真正糟糕的破坏性力量一样，我们没有注意到我们在其中大范围的缺席——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and that it becomes so pervasive in society that it's not also frowned on.
而且它在社会中变得如此普遍，以至于人们也不会对此感到不满。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I actually put social media on an old phone.
事实上，我把社交媒体放在了一部旧手机上。
So I have social media accounts, but on an old phone-
所以我有社交媒体帐户，但在旧手机上-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and that's the only way I can access social media.
这是我访问社交媒体的唯一方式。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Somebody sends me something by way of social media, I don't do it because, I don't know what the best analogy is.
有人通过社交媒体向我发送了一些东西，我没有这样做，因为我不知道最好的类比是什么。
It's like someone who's trying to eat clean, and you're constantly handing them junk food.
这就像有人想吃干净的东西，而你却不断地给他们垃圾食品。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I enjoy social media, but I like to make it a designated-
我喜欢社交媒体，但我喜欢将其指定为-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
time.
时间。
So getting out for a walk of 20 minutes-
于是出去散步20分钟——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
And I would say put the phone in a box
我想说把手机放进盒子里
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
put the phone away.
把手机收起来。
The whole basis here seems to be allowing your brain to go into, if I take it to its logical conclusion, to its necessary state to reset.
如果我得出逻辑结论的话，这里的整个基础似乎是让你的大脑进入必要的重置状态。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe.
也许吧。
This state of getting into nature, and let's call it high fractal environments-
这种融入自然的状态，我们称之为高分形环境——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is similar or should be similar to the way that we've started to talk about sleep.
与我们开始谈论睡眠的方式相似或应该相似。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Prior to 2015, maybe it was 2018, the notion was sleep when you're dead.
2015年之前，也许是2018年，这个概念是死后睡觉。
Matt Walker, UC Berkeley-
马特·沃克，加州大学伯克利分校-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with the book "Why We Sleep," transformed what we now understand, and I and others have been arguing that people need sleep.
《我们为什么睡觉》一书改变了我们现在的理解，我和其他人一直认为人们需要睡眠。
Now-
现在——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I think everyone understands if you don't sleep, your mental health, your physical health-
我想每个人都明白如果你不睡觉，你的心理健康，你的身体健康——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
your performance-
你的表现——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
drops dramatically.
急剧下降。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You need sleep.
你需要睡眠。
And Matt has educated us that you need slow-wave sleep, you need rapid eye movement sleep.
马特告诉我们，你需要慢波睡眠，你需要快速眼动睡眠。
Maybe we also need these high fractal environments.
也许我们也需要这些高分形环境。
And the fact that they come in their best form through walks in nature when we're not doing anything else, just like you wouldn't want to, I don't know, you don't want to bring the phone into the bedroom kind of thing-
事实上，当我们不做任何其他事情时，它们会在大自然中散步时以最佳状态出现，就像你不想这样做一样，我不知道，你不想把手机带进卧室之类的事情 -
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
late at night because you're not going to get your deep sleep because you're going to go to sleep too late, and then you miss out on the opportunity for deep sleep.
深夜，因为你不会进入深度睡眠，因为你睡得太晚，然后你就错过了深度睡眠的机会。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love the idea that these waking states become better understood as, and perhaps even requirements.
我喜欢这样的想法：这些清醒状态可以被更好地理解为，甚至可能是要求。
I feel like we understand so much about sleep, slow-wave sleep-
我觉得我们对睡眠、慢波睡眠了解得很多——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
growth hormone, REM sleep-
生长激素、快速眼动睡眠-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
emotional repair.
情感修复。
And everyone now is like, "Cool, we need sleep."
现在每个人都会说，“酷，我们需要睡觉。”
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"Here are the different stages of sleep."
“这是睡眠的不同阶段。”
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We actually know very little, it seems, about waking states.
事实上，我们似乎对清醒状态知之甚少。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the requirement for different waking states.
以及不同清醒状态的要求。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because if you stay up all night-
因为如果你整晚不睡觉——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you entirely expect to not be at your best the next day.
你完全预计第二天不会处于最佳状态。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I have a feeling that based on your work, that we're doing all sorts of things-
但我有一种感觉，根据你的工作，我们正在做各种各样的事情——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
That's right
没错
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that are making us far less than our natural best.
这使我们远远低于我们自然的最佳状态。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that some of us who are clinically diagnosed with things-
我们中的一些人被临床诊断出患有某种疾病-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I haven't been clinically diagnosed with ADHD.
我尚未被临床诊断患有多动症。
If anything, I'd probably veer more towards the OCD side-
如果有的话，我可能会更倾向于强迫症一方——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of things when it comes to work.
工作时的事情。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But my guess is that if we understand and engage in the proper waking states, that our lives are going to improve markedly, irrespective of whether or not we need medication.
但我的猜测是，如果我们理解并进入正确的清醒状态，无论我们是否需要药物治疗，我们的生活都会显着改善。
That can only be determined, it seems, when we're doing the right behavioral things.
看来，只有当我们采取正确的行为方式时，这一点才能确定。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what are your thoughts, this is a big question-
那么你的想法是什么，这是一个大问题——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but what are your thoughts on really starting to understand what the different waking states are?
但是对于真正开始理解不同的清醒状态是什么，您有何想法？
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And our requirements for waking states.
以及我们对清醒状态的要求。
Because I feel like that's pretty much what your work's about.
因为我觉得这就是你工作的目的。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
That's right.
这是正确的。
And I think the social media and things on the phone are kind of like the junk food.
我认为社交媒体和手机上的东西有点像垃圾食品。
They're just ruining our waking states to a large extent.
它们只是在很大程度上破坏了我们的清醒状态。
And I think what we're talking a lot about with this attention restoration theory and walking in nature is that we need breaks.
我认为我们经常谈论的注意力恢复理论和在大自然中行走是我们需要休息。
You need breaks during your waking time.
你醒着的时候需要休息。
Or if, like you were talking about before, that if we want to get into a state where we are going to be able to concentrate well, maybe you have to take the nature walk first to kind of recharge the battery, even right at the beginning of the day.
或者，就像您之前谈到的那样，如果我们想要进入一种能够集中注意力的状态，也许您必须先在大自然中散步来给电池充电，即使是在一天开始的时候。
So I think there's two elements there.
所以我认为有两个要素。
One is that there's a lot of stuff that we're doing during our waking hours that's depleting directed attention, and we want to mitigate a lot of that stuff.
一是我们在醒着的时候做的很多事情会消耗定向注意力，我们希望减少很多这样的事情。
The other thing is that you can't work 10 hours straight.
另一件事是你不能连续工作10个小时。
Maybe some people say they can, but I just don't think people really can direct their attention for 10 hours straight.
也许有些人说他们可以，但我只是认为人们真的无法连续 10 个小时集中注意力。
I think-
我认为——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not continuously
不连续
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
...
...
not continuously.
不是连续的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In talking to a lot of writers, because when you're working on this book-
在与很多作家交谈时，因为当你在写这本书时——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
most writers who are career writers will say that the most number of hours that they can do really focused writing per day on a regular basis is four.
大多数职业作家都会说，他们每天真正专注写作的最多时间是四个小时。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And some even say three.
有的甚至说三个。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some say five, but four seems to be the average.
有人说是五个，但平均来说是四个。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that's where their entire day and night is dedicated to creating-
这就是他们日日夜夜致力于创造的地方——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that four hours, typically in the morning-
这四个小时，通常是早上——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
although some wrote at night, most wrote early in the morning.
虽然有些人是在晚上写的，但大多数是在清晨写的。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that after four hours, they are saturated.
四小时后，它们就饱和了。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That the brain just can't do it.
大脑根本无法做到这一点。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Do it, right.
做吧，对吧。
So I think there's this element of during our waking hours, protecting directed attention, and then also doing these nature interventions as your breaks.
所以我认为在我们醒着的时候，保护定向注意力，然后在休息时进行这些自然干预。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love this.
我喜欢这个。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm big on getting sunlight in the morning.
我很喜欢早上晒太阳。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I try to see a horizon when I do it.
当我这样做时，我试图看到地平线。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The reason I don't talk about that so broadly is many people don't live in environments where they can catch a horizon.
我之所以不这么广泛地谈论这一点，是因为许多人生活在可以看到地平线的环境中。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Sure.
当然。
Right.
正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I go up on my roof through a trap door-
然后我通过活板门爬上屋顶——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and I don't want people falling off of roofs, and you'd be amazed what people do with information.
我不希望人们从屋顶上掉下来，你会对人们如何处理信息感到惊讶。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
At the same time, if I don't do that, I find it very difficult to ratchet into work in the same way.
同时，如果我不这样做，我发现很难以同样的方式投入工作。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think, again, to take a step back, what I think is so important about your work is that you've identified at least one, and clearly several ways that we can reset our levels, maybe even improve our abilities at directed attention.
我想，再退一步，我认为你的工作如此重要的是，你已经确定了至少一种，而且显然是几种方法，我们可以重新设置我们的水平，甚至可能提高我们定向注意力的能力。
And again, I don't want to demonize social media-
再说一次，我不想妖魔化社交媒体——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but social media is a commercial product that we're engaging in.
但社交媒体是我们正在从事的商业产品。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we get returns in likes, follows, and-
我们得到的回报是喜欢、关注和-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
some people get paid on there.
有些人在那里得到报酬。
But for the most part, it's a business.
但在大多数情况下，这是一门生意。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we're the customer.
我们是客户。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they're the owner.
他们是主人。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
And I'm just saying it's using directed attention.
我只是说它使用了定向注意力。
It's not a restful activity, is basically.
基本上，这不是一项令人放松的活动。
So you can choose to spend your directed attention allocation on that, but then you're going to have less for your work or for other things.
因此，你可以选择将定向注意力分配在这上面，但这样你用于工作或其他事情的注意力就会减少。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So is it fair to say that Low cognitive demand activities are not always restorative.
因此，可以公平地说，低认知需求活动并不总是具有恢复性。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think people need to really understand that-
我认为人们需要真正理解这一点——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
That's exactly right
完全正确
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and hear that.
听到这个。
Because when I think about like, okay, yesterday I recorded a solo on the podcast.
因为当我想到，好吧，昨天我在播客上录制了一段独奏。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And those are extremely...
而这些都是极其...
I don't use a teleprompter except for ads, because those have to proper wording for legal reasons.
除了广告之外，我不使用提词器，因为出于法律原因，这些必须使用正确的措辞。
The amount of attentional demand is immense.
注意力的需求是巨大的。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I didn't do this, but in the past, I would finish up, go home, and I find that scrolling social media, it feels relaxing.
所以我没有这样做，但在过去，我会完成，回家，我发现滚动社交媒体，感觉很放松。
You can do it reclined.
你可以斜着做。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's passive participation.
这是被动参与。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Unless I'm posting or commenting.
除非我发帖或评论。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just like, maybe use my thumb.
就像，也许用我的拇指。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You know?
你知道吗？
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And like some things, but even though it's low cognitive demand, it's draining, is what you're saying.
就像有些事情一样，尽管它的认知需求很低，但它却很让人筋疲力尽，正如你所说的那样。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
That's right.
没错。
Exactly.
确切地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Steve and I wrote this paper back in 2010.
史蒂夫和我在 2010 年写了这篇论文。
Then television was still the low cognitive load activity that we thought was not restful, and there's all these studies on television that people watching television, after they watch for a couple hours, they report being fatigued and being irritable.
当时看电视仍然是一种低认知负荷活动，我们认为这种活动并不能让人放松，而且所有这些关于电视的研究都表明，人们看电视后，在看几个小时后，他们会报告感到疲劳和烦躁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Does cognitive performance decline after watching?
观看后认知能力是否会下降？
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
And cognitive performance declines.
认知能力也会下降。
So even though it's low cognitive load, it's depleting.
因此，尽管认知负荷很低，但它正在耗尽。
It's depleting of directed attention.
它正在耗尽定向注意力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I'm really extreme about this stuff, and I'm excited to be able to incorporate more knowledge toward creating better opportunities for directed attention to the right things and not depleting that.
嗯，我对这件事真的很极端，我很高兴能够整合更多的知识来创造更好的机会，让人们把注意力集中在正确的事情上，而不是耗尽它。
I'm so maniacal that before I'll do a solo, I'll tell my assistant when he comes to the house in the morning, "Please don't talk to me today.
我太疯狂了，在我开始独奏之前，我会在我的助手早上来家里时告诉他，“今天请不要跟我说话。
I'm sorry, I don't want to be rude, but I need to keep rehearsing it in my head."
抱歉，我不想无礼，但我需要在脑子里不断排练。”
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I need to keep, not the specific words, but the concepts in my-
我需要保留的不是具体的单词，而是我的概念——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I'm literally thinking about the structure of the vagus nerve-
我真的在思考迷走神经的结构-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
constantly for usually about 48 hours before-
通常大约 48 小时之前持续不断地-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the same way that you would obsess over something.
就像你会痴迷于某件事一样。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then once it's done, it's done.
然后一旦完成，就完成了。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But anything that's introduced there-
但那里介绍的任何东西-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
like having to make a decision about what to eat for breakfast-
就像必须决定早餐吃什么一样——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is interference.
是干扰。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The brain is amazing, but we're not that great at using our brain to its best advantage always, right?
大脑很神奇，但我们并不总是那么擅长充分利用我们的大脑，对吧？
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah, or our bodies.
是的，或者我们的身体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well put.
说得好。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I want to make sure that we get back into this discussion about rumination.
我想确保我们回到关于沉思的讨论。
So you discovered that depressed people ruminate about their problem in nature in a way that allows them to dump the problem?
所以你发现抑郁症的人会以一种允许他们抛弃问题的方式反思他们的本质问题？
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
We don't know if people with depression ruminate about their problems.
我们不知道抑郁症患者是否会反思他们的问题。
In the experiment, we kind of forced them to ruminate, to see if people are in this ruminative state, would nature still have a benefit?
在实验中，我们有点强迫他们去思考，看看如果人处于这种思考状态，自然还会有好处吗？
And it turns out that it did.
事实证明确实如此。
Now, one thing that we were kind of wondering about is maybe they just think less about their problems in nature than the urban environment.
现在，我们有点想知道的一件事是，也许他们只是更少考虑自然中的问题，而不是城市环境。
And we found that wasn't true.
我们发现事实并非如此。
This is actually work that we did with Ethan Kross, and actually my wife, Catherine Kerpen, was also an author on this study.
这实际上是我们与 Ethan Kross 一起完成的工作，实际上我的妻子 Catherine Kerpen 也是这项研究的作者。
We also thought maybe interacting with nature might put you in this more third-party distance kind of state.
我们还认为，与大自然的互动可能会让你处于一种更加第三方距离的状态。
So instead of saying, "I'm so unhappy," you'd say, "Mark is unhappy," this distance state.
因此，你不要说“我很不高兴”，而是说“马克不高兴”，这种距离状态。
We didn't find evidence of that, too.
我们也没有找到这方面的证据。
It wasn't that people thought about their problems from a more distanced perspective in nature either.
这并不是说人们从本质上更遥远的角度思考他们的问题。
So what I think is happening is I think we just increased their directed attention, and when you increase directed attention, you're able to do lots of things.
所以我认为正在发生的事情是我们只是增加了他们的定向注意力，当你增加定向注意力时，你就能够做很多事情。
And maybe they could just deal with the ruminations better because they had more cognitive resources to deal with those problems.
也许他们可以更好地处理沉思，因为他们有更多的认知资源来处理这些问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, LMNT.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 LMNT。
LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.
LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。
That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium in the correct amounts, but no sugar.
这意味着电解质、钠、镁和钾的含量正确，但不含糖。
Proper hydration is critical for optimal brain and body function.
适当的水合作用对于大脑和身体的最佳功能至关重要。
Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish cognitive and physical performance.
即使是轻微程度的脱水也会降低认知和身体表现。
It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes.
获得充足的电解质也很重要。
The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are vital for functioning of all the cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells.
电解质（钠、镁和钾）对于体内所有细胞（尤其是神经元或神经细胞）的功能至关重要。
Drinking LMNT dissolved in water makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes.
饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT 可以很容易地确保您获得足够的水分和电解质。
To make sure that I'm getting proper amounts of hydration and electrolytes, I dissolve one packet of LMNT in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I first wake up in the morning, and I drink that basically first thing in the morning.
为了确保我获得适量的水合作用和电解质，当我早上第一次醒来时，我将一包 LMNT 溶解在大约 16 至 32 盎司的水中，并且我基本上早上第一件事就是喝它。
I'll also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes.
我还会在进行任何体育锻炼时饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT，尤其是在炎热的日子里，当我大量出汗并失去水和电解质时。
LMNT has a bunch of great-tasting flavors.
LMNT 有很多美味的口味。
I love the raspberry.
我喜欢覆盆子。
I love the citrus flavor.
我喜欢柑橘味。
Right now, LMNT has a limited edition lemonade flavor that is absolutely delicious.
现在LMNT推出了限量版柠檬水口味，绝对美味。
I hate to say that I love one more than all the others, but this lemonade flavor is right up there with my favorite other one, which is raspberry or watermelon.
我不想说我比其他所有口味都更喜欢其中一种，但这种柠檬水口味与我最喜欢的另一种口味（覆盆子或西瓜）不相上下。
Again, I can't pick just one flavor.
再说一次，我不能只选择一种口味。
I love them all.
我爱他们所有人。
If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman, spelled drinklmnt.com/huberman, to claim a free LMNT sample pack with a purchase of any LMNT drink mix.
如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman（拼写为 Drinklmnt.com/huberman），购买任意 LMNT 混合饮料即可领取免费 LMNT 样品包。
Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.
再次强调，请访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman 索取免费样品包。
You mentioned impulsivity, aggression, and the probability of committing a crime.
你提到了冲动、攻击性和犯罪的可能性。
You have some data that there are these ways of reducing impulsivity more broadly.
你有一些数据表明有这些方法可以更广泛地减少冲动。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
I don't think impulsivity is something that most people think they deal with.
我不认为大多数人都认为自己能够应对冲动。
But I'll tell you, if you've ever found yourself picking up your phone just because everyone else did-
但我会告诉你，如果你发现自己拿起电话只是因为其他人都这样做了-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that's impulsivity.
这就是冲动。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And by the way, I think perhaps I've been a little bit unfair to social media, and I've spared the equally or maybe even more pernicious thing of modern life, which is texting.
顺便说一句，我想也许我对社交媒体有点不公平，而我却避开了现代生活中同样甚至可能更有害的东西，那就是短信。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's amazing to me on a plane How hard it is for people to disengage from texting.
对我来说，在飞机上让人们摆脱发短信是多么困难。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's also amazing to me how we can all get into three or four conversations over text, or three or four conversations with one person within a text thread.
让我感到惊讶的是，我们如何能够通过文本进行三到四次对话，或者在一条文本线程中与一个人进行三到四次对话。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If that were converted into actual dialogue-
如果转化为实际的对话的话——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it'd be crazy.
这太疯狂了。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It'd be like switching back and forth between four different conversations.
这就像在四个不同的对话之间来回切换。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That party is nuts.
那个党疯了。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But in the form of texting, it's like we're doing it.
但以短信的形式，就像我们正在做的那样。
Is there any data on what texting is doing to directed attention?
有没有关于发短信如何引导注意力的数据？
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
I haven't seen any on it, but again, I would say it's got to be depleting.
我还没有看到任何内容，但我再说一次，我会说它一定会耗尽。
There was some interesting work, actually, I think by one of your colleagues at Stanford, Anthony Wagner-
事实上，我认为你在斯坦福大学的一位同事安东尼·瓦格纳（Anthony Wagner）做了一些有趣的工作——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, yeah
哦，是的
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
...
...
who did work on these multimedia multitaskers.
谁在这些多媒体多任务处理机上工作过？
So people that text, and are doing email or social media and something on the computer, like you're using multiple media devices simultaneously, does that train attention or does it deplete attention?
那么，那些发短信、处理电子邮件或社交媒体以及在计算机上执行其他操作的人，就像您同时使用多个媒体设备一样，这会训练注意力还是会消耗注意力？
And I think those studies, it was quite evident that it depletes attention.
我认为这些研究很明显地消耗了注意力。
It's not training people's attention, it's just depleting their attention.
它不是在训练人们的注意力，而是在消耗他们的注意力。
So I would say yeah managing all those conversations is going to be very taxing of directed attention.
所以我想说的是，管理所有这些对话将非常耗费定向注意力。
Again, I'm not somebody who's totally against smartphones.
再说一遍，我并不是完全反对智能手机的人。
I have a smartphone.
我有一部智能手机。
I don't do social media, but I do text a lot.
我不使用社交媒体，但我经常发短信。
I guess I try not to always be so fast.
我想我尽量不要总是那么快。
I say sometimes I'm just going to have my time and not always be so fast to respond.
我说有时我只是想有时间而不总是那么快回复。
But it's hard.
但这很难。
It's very difficult.
这是非常困难的。
You have to be really mindful and protective of your directed attention.
你必须真正留心并保护你的定向注意力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And people get angry if they have an expectation of response latency, and then you depart from that.
如果人们预期响应延迟，他们就会生气，然后你就偏离了这一点。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is just nerd speak for, sometimes I'll text back fast-
这只是书呆子的说法，有时我会快速回复短信-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
sometimes it will take me several weeks or months.
有时我需要几周或几个月的时间。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think that's starting to normalize a little bit out there-
我认为这已经开始正常化了——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because of the sheer volume of communication-
由于通讯量巨大——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that people are getting.
人们正在得到的。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A few years ago, that was considered rude.
几年前，这被认为是粗鲁的。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've heard more and more discussions that I have no real knowledge of what the discussions were, but there's a very popular podcast, in particular for women, where the host was talking about this the other day.
我听到越来越多的讨论，但我并不真正了解讨论的内容，但是有一个非常受欢迎的播客，特别是对于女性来说，前几天主持人正在谈论这个问题。
Someone sent it to me.
有人发给我了。
They said, "Oh, the texting three weeks later thing is becoming a norm." I think some people are just bombarded with-
他们说，“哦，三周后发短信的事情已经成为一种常态。”我认为有些人只是被轰炸了-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
text messages.
短信。
I guess our species is really good at creating technologies and then figuring out like, "Darn.
我想我们的物种真的很擅长创造技术，然后想出“该死的。
We need to backtrack a little bit."
我们需要稍微回溯一下。”
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because all the programs, so the program Freedom, for instance, which shuts down the internet for a certain interval of time on your computer.
因为所有程序，例如 Freedom 程序，它都会在您的计算机上关闭互联网一段时间。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That was great.
那太好了。
Hardly anyone uses it.
几乎没有人使用它。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And hardly any of the people I know who used to use it, use it anymore.
在我认识的曾经使用过它的人中，几乎没有人会再使用它了。
Forgive me, Freedom designers.
请原谅我，自由设计师。
But it's like it starts to just disappear-
但它就像开始消失一样——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because the culture drifts in a new way.
因为文化正在以一种新的方式发生变化。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And people like Cal Newport, or you who don't have social media, or me who put social media on a separate phone and takes a month to reply to a text-
像卡尔·纽波特这样的人，或者没有社交媒体的你，或者我，他们把社交媒体放在单独的手机上，需要一个月的时间才能回复短信——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
unless it's urgent.
除非很紧急。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We're considered the weirdos.
我们被认为是怪人。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So it's hard, but again, I've seen people that, like on email, where they'll have an auto-reply that just says, "I'm not going to respond really quickly," or, "I only respond to email this time and this time." And I think that makes sense, again, because we have to protect our directed attention.
所以这很难，但我再次看到人们，就像在电子邮件上一样，他们会收到一个自动回复，只是说：“我不会很快回复”，或者“我只会这一次回复电子邮件”。我认为这也是有道理的，因为我们必须保护我们的定向注意力。
We're just not going to be good functioning humans if we're just constantly being depleted.
如果我们不断地被耗尽，我们就不会成为一个功能良好的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I read a study from Wendy Suzuki's lab at NYU a few years ago, that people that do 13 minutes a day of mindfulness meditation-
几年前，我在纽约大学 Wendy Suzuki 实验室读到一项研究，每天进行 13 分钟正念冥想的人——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
so basically sitting or lying down, closing one's eyes, focusing on their breathing, and constantly refocusing their attention as it drifts back to a location right in the middle of their forehead.
所以基本上坐着或躺着，闭上眼睛，专注于呼吸，并不断重新集中注意力，因为注意力会飘回额头正中的位置。
They observed improvements in memory tasks.
他们观察到记忆任务有所改善。
But actually, decrements in sleep were mentioned there.
但实际上，那里提到了睡眠的减少。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Huh.
呵呵。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Especially if they did it too late in the day.
特别是如果他们当天做得太晚的话。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Huh.
呵呵。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And meditation, to me, always seemed like a focusing exercise.
对我来说，冥想似乎总是一种集中注意力的练习。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so while it's relaxing because you're not jogging or-
所以虽然它很放松，因为你没有慢跑或者-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
socially engaging, it's cognitively demanding-
具有社交参与性，对认知能力要求高——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because you have to constantly bring your attention back.
因为你必须不断地重新集中注意力。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So for many years, we thought of meditation as a reset.
所以多年来，我们一直认为冥想是一种重置。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think of meditation as focus training.
我认为冥想是专注力训练。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not a reset.
不是重置。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What you're talking about with nature walks is a reset.
你所说的自然漫步是一种重置。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Reset, yeah.
重置一下，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
And it's interesting because yeah, there was a paper, Tang, I can't remember her first name, and Michael Posner, they did some meditation results, and they found these kind of improvements in attention after meditation.
这很有趣，因为是的，有一篇论文，唐，我不记得她的名字了，还有迈克尔·波斯纳，他们做了一些冥想结果，他们发现冥想后注意力得到了改善。
And they were contacting me because I was doing this nature stuff.
他们联系我是因为我正在做这些自然的事情。
And they were asking me, "Do you think it's the same mechanism?" And I was saying, "No, I don't think it's the same mechanism." That as you were saying, Andrew, that this meditation is very focused.
他们问我，“你认为这是同样的机制吗？”我说，“不，我不认为这是同一个机制。”正如你所说，安德鲁，这种冥想非常集中。
Lots of directed attention, right?
很多定向关注，对吗？
Whereas what I'm talking about in nature is sort of eliminating the need for any directed attention, that it's all just mind wandering and involuntary attention.
然而我所说的本质上是消除了任何定向注意力的需要，而这一切都只是走神和不自觉的注意力。
So I think, even though maybe you can get some of the same results at the end, I think they're very different mechanisms.
所以我认为，即使你最终可能会得到一些相同的结果，但我认为它们是非常不同的机制。
What I do find fascinating is that I think in a lot of ancient meditation practices, often they try to do it in beautiful nature.
我确实觉得有趣的是，我认为在许多古代冥想练习中，他们经常尝试在美丽的大自然中进行冥想。
And I wonder if they knew something, that actually they could meditate better in this beautiful nature because while they were using directed attention to meditate, being immersed in the beautiful nature was also sort of restoring directed attention at the same time.
我想知道他们是否知道，实际上他们可以在这美丽的大自然中更好地冥想，因为当他们使用定向注意力冥想时，沉浸在美丽的大自然中也同时恢复了定向注意力。
So I do kind of wonder sometimes if maybe combining them, you could get some really interesting results.
所以有时我确实想知道是否将它们结合起来，你可以得到一些非常有趣的结果。
But exactly, being in nature, to me, is not a meditative process.
但确切地说，对我来说，身处大自然并不是一个冥想的过程。
It's a much more passive kind of cognitive process.
这是一种更加被动的认知过程。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I think we need to distinguish between passive and restorative-
所以我认为我们需要区分被动和恢复性——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and passive and depleting.
以及被动和消耗。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it should be obvious which things fall into which categories.
哪些事物属于哪些类别应该是显而易见的。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then there are things that are perhaps passive and restorative, but go beyond restorative.
还有一些事情可能是被动的和恢复性的，但超出了恢复性的范围。
They might even be passive, restorative, and cognitive-enhancing when you get back to work.
当你回到工作岗位时，它们甚至可能是被动的、恢复性的和增强认知的。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Back to focused attention-
回到集中注意力——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
on the real stuff.
关于真实的东西。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then the scary thought, which is probably true, based on just real-world observation, is that passive and depleting activities, when you repeat them over time, aren't just taking away your ability to engage directed attention later that day or the next day, but that over time, the circuitry for directed attention in the brain is probably subject to plasticity in both directions.
然后，基于现实世界的观察，可怕的想法可能是正确的，即被动和消耗性的活动，当你随着时间的推移重复这些活动时，不仅会剥夺你当天晚些时候或第二天进行定向注意力的能力，而且随着时间的推移，大脑中定向注意力的电路可能会在两个方向上受到可塑性的影响。
This is something that I've long been obsessed with.
这是我长期以来一直痴迷的事情。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Every neural circuit that we are aware of is available for plasticity.
我们所知道的每一个神经回路都具有可塑性。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It requires focus, it requires alertness, and it requires sleep.
它需要专注，需要警觉，需要睡眠。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Those are the requirements, right?
这些就是要求，对吗？
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it's also possible that the circuits for focus can strengthen, so you can get better at focusing by focusing.
但聚焦回路也有可能得到加强，因此你可以通过聚焦来更好地聚焦。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Right.
正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I certainly see that.
我当然看到了。
The more I do focused work, the better I get at it-
我越专注地工作，我就做得越好-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and the longer I can do it.
我能做的时间越长。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know there's a threshold there.
我知道那里有一个门槛。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But also, if I take time away from it for a while, yes, I can replenish, but just like exercise, eventually you start to atrophy.
而且，如果我离开一段时间，是的，我可以补充能量，但就像锻炼一样，最终你会开始萎缩。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it could be that passive and depleting stuff, repeated for enough years, kind of brings you to a state of really true ADHD.
这可能是这种被动的、消耗性的东西，重复了足够长的时间，会让你进入一种真正的多动症状态。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah, maybe.
是的，也许吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe you fall into clinical ADHD that probably existed before-
也许你陷入了以前可能存在的临床多动症——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but maybe we see it so much more now because people-
但也许我们现在看到得更多了，因为人们——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I mean, this is the equivalent of mental obesity.
我的意思是，这相当于精神肥胖。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Basically.
基本上。
Right?
正确的？
Or mental metabolic syndrome.
或者精神代谢综合症。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know.
我不知道。
Let's just be direct.
我们直接说吧。
Mental obesity, right?
心理肥胖吧？
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you don't exercise enough for long enough-
如果你运动量不够、时间不够长——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
chances are you're going to end up overweight or obese.
您很可能最终会超重或肥胖。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Certainly with metabolic syndrome.
当然是代谢综合症。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And unfortunately too, these technology things are addictive, and most addictions just are not healthy, right?
不幸的是，这些科技产品会让人上瘾，而且大多数上瘾都是不健康的，对吧？
So, then it's hard to get out once you start.
所以，一旦开始就很难退出。
That is an interesting term, mental obesity.
这是一个有趣的术语，心理肥胖。
There was this interesting paper that looked at how our collective attention span has sort of changed.
有一篇有趣的论文研究了我们的集体注意力跨度是如何变化的。
They looked at just a short time window, but tweet hashtags, maybe they used to last for 40 hours, be popular.
他们只关注了很短的时间窗口，但推文主题标签（也许它们过去可能持续 40 小时）很受欢迎。
Now it's down to 20 hours.
现在已经缩短到20个小时了。
If you look at movie ticket sales, the most popular movies, they were more popular for three months.
如果你看一下电影票的销售情况，最受欢迎的电影，它们在三个月内更受欢迎。
Now it's one and a half months.
现在已经一个半月了。
Maybe our collective attention span is kind of shrinking a little bit, and we've kind of been wondering, does that mean has our individual directed attention kind of shrunk a little bit-
也许我们的集体注意力范围有点缩小，我们一直在想，这是否意味着我们个人的定向注意力有点缩小——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
...
...
or is there just too many other possibilities that we're just too overwhelmed that that's causing that?
还是有太多其他的可能性导致我们不知所措？
But it is something that is a bit worrisome.
但这是有点令人担忧的事情。
It's not just that we're having a lot of things, and I'm speculating now.
不仅仅是我们有很多事情，而且我现在正在猜测。
It's not just that we have a lot of things vying for our directed attention, but if we're being so bombarded so much, and as you say, we're kind of getting into these bad modes of thinking, could our directed attention span actually shrink?
这不仅是因为我们有很多事情争夺我们的定向注意力，而且如果我们受到如此多的轰炸，正如你所说，我们有点进入这些不良的思维模式，我们的定向注意力跨度真的会缩小吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I believe it-
我相信——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
can and it is out there.
可以，而且它就在那里。
To borrow from the mighty David Goggins, I don't know if you're familiar with David, but author of "Can't Hurt Me," and he's been on this podcast, and a real proponent of doing hard things every single day, not because he wants to do them, but precisely because he doesn't want to do them.
借用伟大的大卫·戈金斯的话，我不知道你是否熟悉大卫，他是《不能伤害我》的作者，他一直在这个播客上，并且是每天做困难事情的真正支持者，不是因为他想做，而是因为他不想做。
Forcing upon himself-
强迫自己——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
real discipline.
真正的纪律。
He's emblematic of that.
他就是这一点的象征。
He's also said, and this should be reassuring to people, that nowadays it's easier than ever to be exceptional, because all you have to do is overcome the urge to be on your phone as much- ...
他还说，这应该让人们放心，现在比以往任何时候都更容易脱颖而出，因为你所要做的就是克服尽可能多地使用手机的冲动......
run a bit more.
多跑一点。
Maybe what we're going to select for are the people who are very organized about their engagement with phones and social media.
也许我们要选择的是那些对手机和社交媒体的参与非常有条理的人。
I will say, coming from the Bay Area, I know a number of people who work for and have founded very large social media platforms.
我想说的是，来自湾区的我认识很多为大型社交媒体平台工作并创建过的人。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're not on their phones all day.
他们不会整天玩手机。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're definitely not, and their kids aren't either.
他们绝对不是，他们的孩子也不是。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Their kids aren't either.
他们的孩子也不是。
So you're a father of four.
所以你是四个孩子的父亲。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are there things that you do with your kids to encourage the buildup and reinforcement of these circuits?
您是否与孩子一起做一些事情来鼓励这些回路的建立和强化？
Certainly, their brains are still plastic.
当然，他们的大脑仍然是可塑的。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And a lot of people listening to this have kids, or are kids, and would like to know what they should do.
很多听这个的人都有孩子，或者是孩子，他们想知道他们应该做什么。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is it exactly what adults should do?
这真的是成年人应该做的吗？
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
So I try to practice what I preach.
所以我努力实践我所宣扬的。
It's hard because all of their friends have the technologies, too.
这很难，因为他们所有的朋友也都拥有技术。
My oldest daughter does have a smartphone, but she doesn't have any social media.
我的大女儿确实有智能手机，但她没有任何社交媒体。
She uses it mostly to text her friends and play Duolingo or something like that.
她主要用它来给朋友发短信和玩 Duolingo 或类似的游戏。
I try to get them to go out in nature as much as possible.
我尽量让他们到大自然中去。
Sometimes they're hesitant, or, "Dad, I don't," they don't want to do it.
有时他们会犹豫，或者“爸爸，我不想”，他们不想这样做。
But we definitely try to get them outside as much as possible.
但我们肯定会尽力让他们尽可能多地出去。
And even when we get to go on vacation once in a while, my wife's family, we're fortunate, they have a little cabin in northern Ontario that we go to, and there's really no internet there or anything, and the kids are just running around with their cousins and playing in the lake and doing just normal kid things.
即使我们偶尔去度假，我妻子的家人也很幸运，他们在安大略省北部有一个小木屋可供我们去，那里真的没有互联网或任何东西，孩子们只是和他们的表兄弟姐妹一起跑来跑去，在湖里玩耍，做着正常的孩子们的事情。
And I think you've had Jonathan Haidt on the podcast, and he kind of talked about this.
我想乔纳森·海特 (Jonathan Haidt) 曾参加过播客，他谈到了这一点。
And he said the kids have to have more free play, and the thing that I would just add to what Jonathan is saying, I would say you want them to have more free play in nature, and we want them getting out in nature more.
他说孩子们必须有更多的自由玩耍，我想补充一下乔纳森所说的，我会说你希望他们在大自然中有更多的自由玩耍，我们希望他们更多地接触大自然。
And I think, back to, Goggins was his name?
我想，回到戈金斯是他的名字？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
David Goggins.
大卫·戈金斯。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
David Goggins.
大卫·戈金斯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
I do agree, too, that we should do hard things.
我也同意我们应该做困难的事情。
And I think taking breaks in nature actually allows us to do more hard things.
我认为在大自然中休息实际上可以让我们做更多困难的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Just like you can't lift weights continuously all day long, every day.
就像你不能整天、每天连续举重一样。
You've got to rest.
你必须休息。
And you got to take good rest, and I think the nature breaks are the good mental rest, which is going to allow you then to later do the heavy cognitive work better.
你必须好好休息，我认为自然休息是良好的精神休息，这将使你以后能够更好地完成繁重的认知工作。
But many of us are not taking good rest breaks.
但我们中的许多人都没有好好休息。
We're taking bad rest breaks, and I think if we can eliminate those bad rest breaks and substitute in the good nature rest breaks, people are just going to be much healthier cognitively, physically, socially.
我们正在采取不良的休息时间，我认为如果我们能够消除这些不良的休息时间并代之以良好的自然休息时间，人们在认知、身体和社交方面都会变得更加健康。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I'm going to offer something controversial, but with a purpose.
好吧，我将提供一些有争议的东西，但有一个目的。
I did an episode on alcohol about...
我拍了一集关于酒精的节目……
Basically, the conclusion was zero is better than any.
基本上，结论是零比任何都好。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And two a week is probably fine.
一周两次可能就可以了。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And yes, it's poison.
是的，它是毒药。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And remains one of our most popular episodes.
仍然是我们最受欢迎的剧集之一。
But even though I'm not a drinker, you have to kind of wonder whether doing away with happy hour, which by the way, used to be every day at the end of work-
但即使我不喝酒，你也得想知道是否要取消欢乐时光，顺便说一句，过去每天工作结束时都会有欢乐时光——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
created this gap for passive depleting stuff to come in, and it kind of raises this question of like, well, was happy hour restorative?
为被动消耗的东西进入创造了这个间隙，这有点提出了这样一个问题，比如，欢乐时光是否能恢复活力？
And just to give people a clear sense of how pervasive happy hour with alcohol was, when I first was a graduate student at Berkeley and was at Tolman Hall.
当我第一次在伯克利大学读研究生并在托尔曼大厅学习时，只是为了让人们清楚地了解饮酒的快乐时光是多么普遍。
So first I was at Berkeley, and then I did a second graduate degree elsewhere.
所以首先我在伯克利，然后我在其他地方获得了第二个研究生学位。
But when I was at Tolman Hall, there was this library in the psychology building, and I was told that up until just three years before, so that was in 1998, it was customary for people to gather in the library for drinks every day at the end of the day.
但当我在托尔曼大厅的时候，心理学楼里有一个图书馆，我被告知直到三年前，也就是1998年，人们习惯每天结束时聚集在图书馆喝酒。
And that for many, many decades prior, the founders of this, so Frank Beach and all those guys, used to get together and get really drunk at the end of each day and go home, walk home hopefully, not drive home, and then spend time with their families, and then get up the next morning, drink coffee, and go back to work.
几十年前，这个项目的创始人，弗兰克·比奇（Frank Beach）和所有这些人，习惯于每天结束时聚在一起喝得酩酊大醉，然后回家，充满希望地步行回家，而不是开车回家，然后与家人共度时光，然后第二天早上起床，喝咖啡，然后回去工作。
And so, alcohol culture, drinking culture-
所以，酒精文化，饮酒文化——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
was a big part of how people socialized and decompressed at the end of the day.
这是人们在一天结束时社交和减压的重要组成部分。
We know it's not good for you.
我们知道这对你不好。
You'll live a shorter life, and it has a bunch of other issues with it, and what happens when people drink together, et cetera, that can often not be good.
你的寿命会更短，而且还有很多其他问题，当人们一起喝酒时会发生什么，等等，这通常不是好事。
But the point here is, I think for many people who have families, but especially who don't have families, the number of healthy ways to reset-
但这里的要点是，我认为对于许多有家庭的人，尤其是没有家庭的人来说，有很多健康的方式来重置——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the evening, to reset on a weekend in non-destructive ways-
晚上，以非破坏性的方式重置周末——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
has become more limited.
已变得更加有限。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In part because what's offered to us as passive restoration, I'm realizing today, is passive depletion.
部分原因是，我今天意识到，为我们提供的被动恢复是被动消耗。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So do we bring back happy hour?
那么我们会带回欢乐时光吗？
Maybe with non-alcoholic beverages or something like that.
也许搭配非酒精饮料或类似的东西。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
I think the happy hour is probably good socially, but I'm not sure it was so good for directed attention.
我认为欢乐时光可能对社交有好处，但我不确定它对引导注意力有多大好处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do they still do happy hour in your department?
你们部门还提供欢乐时光吗？
You're chair of a department-
你是一个部门的主席-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
at University of Chicago.
在芝加哥大学。
They used to do graduate student happy hour every Friday when I was a graduate student.
当我还是一名研究生时，他们每周五都会举办研究生欢乐时光。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And a volleyball game, and then people would go out to dinner.
还有一场排球比赛，然后人们会出去吃饭。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this was prior to smartphones.
这是在智能手机出现之前。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right as smartphones showed up-
随着智能手机的出现——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because 2000 was when I started my PhD.
因为2000年是我开始攻读博士学位的时候。
And it was really nice.
这真的很好。
I didn't always go.
我并不总是去。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I was often in lab late working.
我经常在实验室工作到很晚。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I would go sometimes.
但我有时也会去。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I feel like being on one's phone is not that.
我觉得打电话不是这样的。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not a volleyball game with friends.
这不是和朋友一起打排球比赛。
It was a friendly-
这是一场友好的——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
volleyball game, meaning if you weren't good at volleyball, people didn't give you a hard time.
排球比赛，意味着如果你排球不好，人们不会为难你。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then people would go out for dinner and drinks.
然后人们会出去吃饭和喝酒。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
We do do happy hours once in a while.
我们偶尔也会享受欢乐时光。
I think it's kind of funny.
我觉得这有点好笑。
After COVID, I kind of felt like students didn't always know how to interact with faculty anymore.
新冠疫情之后，我感觉学生不再总是知道如何与教师互动。
There was kind of this weird dynamic, so the happy hours have been a good way to kind of reset and show that we're all colleagues and help students interact more with faculty and faculty to interact more with students.
有一种奇怪的动态，所以欢乐时光是一种很好的方式来重新调整并表明我们都是同事，并帮助学生与教师进行更多互动，教师与学生进行更多互动。
I think one thing about the reset is, I didn't say this, but I think the going in nature also has to be solitary to really get the benefit.
我认为关于重置的一件事是，我没有这么说，但我认为进入大自然也必须是孤独的才能真正获得好处。
If you're going with a friend, you're going to be chit-chatting with the friend.
如果你和朋友一起去，你就会和朋友闲聊。
That's going to take directed attention.
这将需要定向关注。
When I take my kids in nature, it's good for my kids, but I don't count that as necessarily a restorative experience for me.
当我带孩子去大自然时，这对我的孩子有好处，但我并不认为这对我来说一定是一次恢复性的经历。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're tracking their positions.
你正在追踪他们的位置。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You got four little ones, so that's your evolutionary task.
你有四个小孩子，所以这就是你的进化任务。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
So I have to carve out time where I can go on my own, and I think there's different buckets.
所以我必须挤出时间自己去，我认为有不同的时间段。
I think there's a bucket for getting the good social interaction, so I'm not advocating that people do Thoreau, and you build a cabin in the woods and you're just there solo.
我认为获得良好的社交互动是有可能的，所以我不提倡人们像梭罗那样，在树林里建造一间小屋，然后独自一人在那里。
I'm more advocating for these kind of micro doses of nature to bump directed attention up.
我更提倡这种微剂量的自然来提高定向注意力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can you bring a dog?
可以带狗吗？
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
I think a dog would work well.
我认为狗会很好地工作。
A dog doesn't require a conversation.
狗不需要对话。
No words, no language.
没有言语，没有语言。
As long as the dog is pretty well-behaved, I think that would work too.
只要狗表现得很好，我认为这也是可行的。
And dogs, in some sense, that's also kind of...
狗，从某种意义上说，这也是......
We're part of nature.
我们是大自然的一部分。
Dogs are part of nature, and some elements to me too, I think dogs are kind of softly fascinating and interesting.
狗是大自然的一部分，对我来说也是一些元素，我认为狗是一种温柔迷人和有趣的东西。
But I do think to get the really most bang for your buck for these nature experiences, they do have to be solitary.
但我确实认为，要让这些自然体验真正物有所值，它们必须是孤独的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All right, so minimum 20 minutes, but perhaps on the weekend, you can get out for longer if you-
好吧，至少 20 分钟，但也许在周末，如果您-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah, that's right
是的，没错
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
can't do it every day, because I'm not going to say I can't, but I think many people aren't going to manage 20 minutes in nature every single day by themselves.
我不可能每天都这样做，因为我不会说我不能，但我认为很多人不会每天自己在大自然中呆上 20 分钟。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But if you can, it sounds like a terrific thing to do, and certainly people are going to start thinking about new concepts like soft fascination and directed attention and the ability to restore directed attention-
但如果可以的话，这听起来是一件很棒的事情，而且人们肯定会开始思考新的概念，比如软迷恋、定向注意力以及恢复定向注意力的能力——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
if something is actually restorative versus passively depleting.
如果某件事实际上是恢复性的而不是被动消耗的。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I want to make sure that I ask you about ...
我想确保我问你的是……
stroke, diabetes, and heart disease.
中风、糖尿病和心脏病。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You have some really interesting data-
你有一些非常有趣的数据-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that people who take on this practice of getting into nature can actually improve their health outcomes beyond just being able to focus better.
人们采取这种融入大自然的做法实际上可以改善他们的健康状况，而不仅仅是能够更好地集中注意力。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
So there's all this incredible work on physical health benefits of nature.
因此，关于自然对身体健康的益处，有很多令人难以置信的工作。
Now, of course, mind and body are united, and that's one thing that we talk about in the book, that it's mind, body are united, and then we have to deal with the environment, too.
当然，现在思想和身体是统一的，这是我们在书中讨论的一件事，思想和身体是统一的，然后我们也必须处理环境。
But it's interesting that there have been these studies about these incredible physical health benefits that people get from interacting with nature.
但有趣的是，有一些研究表明人们从与自然的互动中获得了令人难以置信的身体健康益处。
And one of the most incredible ones, I don't know if you're familiar with this, Andrew, was a study done by Roger Ulrich in the 1980s.
最令人难以置信的研究之一是罗杰·乌尔里希 (Roger Ulrich) 在 20 世纪 80 年代所做的一项研究，安德鲁，我不知道你是否熟悉这一点。
And what Roger Ulrich was looking at was a hospital corridor in this hospital in Philadelphia.
罗杰·乌尔里希看到的是费城这家医院的医院走廊。
And he looked at, in these hospital rooms, what view did they have out of the window of these hospital rooms.
他看着这些病房里，从这些病房的窗户往外看到什么风景。
And some of the hospital rooms had views of modest nature, like a tree and some shrubs.
一些病房可以看到朴素的自然景色，比如一棵树和一些灌木。
Others were just looking out to a brick wall.
其他人只是看着一堵砖墙。
And it was interesting that patients who were recovering from gallbladder surgery, when they had the view of nature out of their window, this modest view of nature, they recovered from gallbladder surgery a day earlier, and they used less pain medication compared to the people that had the view of the brick wall.
有趣的是，从胆囊手术中恢复的患者，当他们看到窗外的自然景色时，这种谦虚的自然景观，他们提前一天从胆囊手术中恢复，并且与那些看到砖墙的人相比，他们使用的止痛药更少。
And what's cool about this study is that Ulrich didn't have the power to randomly put people in different rooms, but essentially, patients were just randomly put into these different hospital rooms.
这项研究的有趣之处在于，乌尔里希没有能力将人们随机放入不同的房间，但本质上，患者只是被随机放入这些不同的医院房间。
So it's not like healthier people got the views of nature or wealthier people got the views of nature.
因此，这并不像健康的人有自然的看法，也不像富裕的人有自然的看法。
These patients were just randomly placed into these different hospital rooms.
这些病人只是被随机安置在不同的病房里。
And the ones that have the modest view of nature recovered faster from gallbladder surgery and used less pain medication.
那些对自然持谦虚态度的人从胆囊手术中恢复得更快，并且使用更少的止痛药。
And you got to be thinking, what's up with that?
你必须想，这是怎么回事？
What's the mechanism there?
这里面的机制是怎样的呢？
I don't think it's air quality.
我认为这不是空气质量的问题。
I don't think the people with the views of nature somehow exercised more.
我不认为有自然观的人锻炼得更多。
There's something about the aesthetic of nature that can also be physically healing.
自然之美也可以治愈身体。
That's pretty wild.
这真是太疯狂了。
We kind of followed up on that in a study that we did in Toronto, which was kind of cool.
我们在多伦多进行的一项研究对此进行了跟进，这很酷。
We had health data from about 30,000 people in Toronto.
我们有多伦多约 30,000 人的健康数据。
And then we had two incredible data sets to quantify green space in people's neighborhoods that we then could relate to health.
然后我们有两个令人难以置信的数据集来量化人们社区的绿色空间，然后我们可以将其与健康联系起来。
So the University of Toronto Forestry Department had a data set where they cataloged every single tree on public land in the city of Toronto.
因此，多伦多大学林业部有一个数据集，他们对多伦多市公共土地上的每一棵树进行了分类。
So we had data for 580,000 trees in the city of Toronto.
我们有多伦多市 580,000 棵树的数据。
We knew the species of the tree and the diameter of the tree at breast height, basically saying how old the tree was.
我们知道树的品种和树的胸径，基本上就是知道树的年龄。
And then my student, Omid Kardan, calculated basically how much tree canopy each individual tree provided.
然后我的学生奥米德·卡丹（Omid Kardan）基本上计算出了每棵树提供了多少树冠。
Then we had this other data set that was satellite imagery of the whole city of Toronto, where we could quantify all the other trees that were in people's backyards or something like that.
然后我们有了另一个数据集，它是整个多伦多市的卫星图像，我们可以在其中量化人们后院的所有其他树木或类似的东西。
And from those data, we basically related the health data to the tree data.
从这些数据中，我们基本上将健康数据与树木数据相关联。
So for one variable, it's subjective.
所以对于一个变量来说，它是主观的。
So how healthy do people think they are?
那么人们认为自己有多健康呢？
How healthy do they feel?
他们感觉有多健康？
And we found that if you just added one tree on their city block, that was related to a 1% increase in people's health perception.
我们发现，如果你在他们的城市街区添加一棵树，人们的健康感知就会提高 1%。
Now, that sounds pretty modest, but to get that equivalent benefit monetarily, you'd have to give everybody in that neighborhood $10,000 and have them move to a neighborhood that had a median income that was $10,000 wealthier, or it was also related with being seven years younger.
现在，这听起来相当温和，但要获得同等的金钱福利，你必须给该社区的每个人 10,000 美元，并让他们搬到收入中位数高 10,000 美元的社区，或者这也与年轻 7 岁有关。
And again, the tree effect was controlling for age, education, and income.
同样，树木效应控制了年龄、教育和收入。
So that was pretty interesting.
所以这很有趣。
We also had data on more objective health measures.
我们还有关于更客观的健康措施的数据。
Does somebody have a stroke?
有人中风吗？
Do they have diabetes or heart disease?
他们患有糖尿病或心脏病吗？
And there we found if you increased the amount of trees on the street by one tree per neighborhood, that was related to a 1% reduction in stroke, diabetes, and heart disease.
我们发现，如果街道上的树木数量每街区增加一棵树，中风、糖尿病和心脏病的发病率就会减少 1%。
Again, sounds pretty modest, but to get that equivalent benefit monetarily, you'd have to give every household in that neighborhood $20,000, have them all move to a neighborhood that's $20,000 wealthier, or it was also related to being one and a half years younger.
再说一次，听起来相当温和，但要获得同等的金钱福利，你必须给该社区的每个家庭 20,000 美元，让他们全部搬到一个比 20,000 美元富裕的社区，或者这也与年轻一岁半有关。
So pretty incredible.
太不可思议了。
Again, I can't say causality because it's correlational, but I'm fairly confident in the direction because the worst case scenario is just healthier people choose to live in neighborhoods that have more trees, but they can't be younger, they can't be wealthier, they can't be more educated because we controlled for that.
再说一遍，我不能说因果关系，因为它是相关的，但我对这个方向相当有信心，因为最坏的情况是更健康的人选择住在有更多树木的社区，但他们不能更年轻，他们不能更富有，他们不能受更多教育，因为我们对此进行了控制。
Now, for that study, maybe the mechanism could be air quality, or maybe the mechanism could be maybe people are more willing to exercise if there's more trees on the street.
现在，对于这项研究，可能的机制可能是空气质量，或者可能的机制可能是如果街道上有更多的树木，人们更愿意锻炼。
But pretty incredible stuff that just increasing the tree canopy a little bit, you could get these physical health benefits.
但令人难以置信的是，只需增加一点树冠，您就可以获得这些身体健康益处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That is impressive.
这令人印象深刻。
For people that don't have the opportunity to plant more trees in their neighborhood, would getting and tending to an indoor plant have any positive effect?
对于没有机会在附近种植更多树木的人们来说，获得和照料室内植物会有什么积极作用吗？
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
So people have found some effects of having indoor plants.
所以人们发现了室内植物的一些功效。
Not necessarily to these physical health benefits, but there's some attention benefits of having indoor greenery.
室内绿化不一定对身体健康有好处，但对注意力有一定好处。
There's also been some benefits Hospitals now are starting to take this seriously, that patients subjectively feel better when there's this greenery around.
还有一些好处，医院现在开始认真对待这一点，当周围有这种绿色植物时，患者主观上会感觉更好。
I've seen other work too, that people that are having some procedures that are very painful, that actually bringing greenery into the hospital rooms can be helpful for reducing feelings of pain.
我也看到过其他工作，那些正在接受一些非常痛苦的手术的人，实际上将绿色植物带入医院房间可以有助于减轻疼痛感。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I'm about to embark on putting a bunch of plants in my place.
我准备开始在我的地方种上一堆植物。
I'm also a big fan of fish tanks.
我也是鱼缸的忠实粉丝。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As long as you take good care of them, underwater scapes are really cool.
只要你照顾好它们，水下景观真的很酷。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I like to think, I don't have any data on this, but I like to think that they are passive and restorative.
我喜欢认为，我没有任何这方面的数据，但我喜欢认为它们是被动的和恢复性的。
Staring at a fish tank is a lot like being in a dream.
凝视鱼缸就像在梦中一样。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
In Toronto, there's a Ripley's Aquarium, and they have this tank that's got kelp.
在多伦多，有一个里普利水族馆，他们有一个装有海带的水箱。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
And you can see the kelp kind of moving in the water.
你可以看到海带在水中移动。
It definitely feels very restorative.
这绝对让人感觉非常恢复活力。
And watching the fish swim around also feels very restorative.
而且看着鱼儿游来游去的感觉也很治愈。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
The feeling that might be familiar to people that visited, for instance, the Monterey Bay Aquarium or this aquarium-
参观过蒙特利湾水族馆或这个水族馆的人可能会熟悉这种感觉——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that you're describing is when the tanks are at eye level or higher, it puts you into this other world, right?
你所描述的是当水箱处于视线水平或更高的位置时，它会让你进入另一个世界，对吧？
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like you're at the bottom of the ocean-
就像你在海底一样——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or you're in the ocean.
或者你在海洋里。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the feeling that's always striking to me is when you leave an aquarium, and you're out into the real world again, it feels so different.
但总让我印象深刻的感觉是，当你离开水族馆，再次进入现实世界时，感觉是如此不同。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's what you take away from it that's equally interesting.
你从中得到的东西同样有趣。
In the same way that when you walk out of a really great movie-
就像当你走出一部非常棒的电影时一样——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the world feels different.
世界感觉不同了。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It feels lighter, brighter.
感觉更轻、更明亮。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's, of course, physically brighter, but there's really something to it, the contrast-
当然，它在物理上更亮，但它确实有一些东西，对比度——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
between experiences, which is so much of what we're talking about today.
体验之间的差异，这就是我们今天讨论的内容。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think a lot of people who have some aesthetic sense will be familiar with the experience of seeing a building or walking into a space and you're like, "Oh, this feels good," or, "This doesn't feel right." And sometimes they can point to the clutter or the lack, or whatever it is.
我认为很多有一定审美意识的人都会熟悉看到一栋建筑或走进一个空间的体验，你会说，“哦，这感觉很好，”或者，“这感觉不对。”有时他们可以指出混乱或缺乏，或者其他什么。
Some people are more design-oriented.
有些人更注重设计。
What's this phrase?
这句话是什么？
It's the feng, fang-
是凤、芳——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Feng shui.
风水。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Feng shui.
风水。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
What do we know about nature and physical spaces and how they impact how we feel or even how we think?
我们对自然和物理空间了解多少？它们如何影响我们的感受甚至思维方式？
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It's a really interesting question, and there's a couple interesting things that we've done that's related to this.
这是一个非常有趣的问题，我们做了一些与此相关的有趣的事情。
So one design concept that people talk about quite a bit now is this idea of biophilic design, so trying to mimic patterns of nature in architecture.
因此，人们现在经常谈论的一个设计理念是亲自然设计的理念，因此试图在建筑中模仿自然模式。
And you can imagine a Gaudi building in Barcelona that's got all the curves, and Gaudi was trying to mimic nature in a lot of his buildings, and people really like that kind of architecture.
你可以想象巴塞罗那的一座高迪建筑，它拥有所有的曲线，高迪试图在他的很多建筑中模仿自然，人们真的很喜欢这种建筑。
And so we collaborated with this architect, Alex Coburn, and we basically took a bunch of building facades and had people basically look at these facades and rate how much they like these buildings and building interiors.
因此，我们与建筑师亚历克斯·科伯恩（Alex Coburn）合作，我们基本上拍摄了一堆建筑外墙，让人们基本上看看这些外墙，并评价他们对这些建筑和建筑内部的喜欢程度。
And then we also had them do this game on the computer where we'd show them a few of these architectural scenes on the screen, and they'd have to move them around, lumping the ones that are most similar together and lumping different ones somewhere else.
然后我们还让他们在计算机上玩这个游戏，我们会在屏幕上向他们展示一些建筑场景，他们必须移动它们，将最相似的集中在一起，并将不同的集中在其他地方。
And when we analyzed the data, we saw something really interesting, which is that people lumped together a lot of this architecture that had a lot of the fractal patterns on one side, and other kinds of architecture that was more brutalist with the straight lines on the other side.
当我们分析数据时，我们看到了一些非常有趣的东西，那就是人们将很多这种建筑的一侧有很多分形图案，以及其他类型的建筑集中在一起，这些建筑的另一侧有直线，更加野蛮。
And when we had people, actually another set of people, rate these images for how natural they thought they were, people were actually using naturalness to make these similarity judgments, suggesting that even in an architectural scene, people will see nature in a building.
当我们让人们（实际上是另一组人）对这些图像的自然程度进行评分时，人们实际上是在利用自然度来做出这些相似性判断，这表明即使在建筑场景中，人们也会在建筑物中看到自然。
And it may not even be conscious, and they like that kind of architecture better.
而且它甚至可能是无意识的，而且他们更喜欢那种建筑。
They find it more comforting.
他们发现这更令人安慰。
And so again, when we're talking about a nature revolution like we do in the book, it's maybe not just even about putting real nature in, but even building spaces trying to mimic the patterns of nature that might also have some benefits.
再说一次，当我们像在书中那样谈论自然革命时，它甚至可能不仅仅是将真实的自然放入其中，甚至是建造试图模仿自然模式的空间，这也可能有一些好处。
So we found that to be pretty interesting.
所以我们发现这非常有趣。
Another student of mine, Kate Schertz, led another set of studies where we collaborated with this foundation that was called TKF Foundation.
我的另一位学生 Kate Schertz 领导了另一组研究，我们与这个名为 TKF 基金会的基金会合作。
Now it's called Nature Sacred.
现在它被称为自然神圣。
And this was a foundation that built many parks in the Baltimore, DC, Annapolis, Maryland area.
这个基金会在华盛顿特区巴尔的摩、马里兰州安纳波利斯地区建造了许多公园。
And they built, like, 100 of these parks, and what they also do in these parks is they would put a bench, this characteristic bench in the park, and underneath the bench was a journal.
他们建造了大约 100 个这样的公园，他们在这些公园里还做的就是在公园里放一张长凳，这个特色长凳，长凳下面放着一本日记。
And people could write things in the journal.
人们可以在日记中写东西。
And so I found this foundation, and I got a small grant from them to do some research with them, and they actually transcribed all these journal entries digitally.
所以我找到了这个基金会，我从他们那里得到了一笔小额资助，与他们一起做一些研究，他们实际上以数字方式转录了所有这些日记条目。
And we also had pictures of these parks.
我们还有这些公园的照片。
And so one thing that we did is we ran a topic model on these journal entries to see what are some themes that people are talking about.
因此，我们做的一件事是对这些日记条目运行主题模型，以了解人们正在谈论的主题是什么。
And a lot of these parks were actually near churches or hospitals, so people wrote concepts related to religion, they wrote things about nature, and they also wrote things related to spirituality.
很多这些公园实际上都在教堂或医院附近，所以人们写了与宗教有关的概念，他们写了有关自然的东西，他们也写了与灵性有关的东西。
So one analysis that we did, we also had another set of people rate the parks for how natural they were based on the pictures, and we found that if the park was rated as being more natural People actually wrote more about things related to naturalness.
因此，我们做了一项分析，我们还让另一组人根据图片对公园的自然程度进行评分，我们发现，如果公园被评为更自然，人们实际上会写更多与自然相关的内容。
Okay, not too surprising, but a nice sanity check.
好吧，这并不奇怪，但这是一次很好的健全性检查。
What was even more surprising is with computer vision algorithms, we could quantify the amount of curved edges in these park pictures.
更令人惊讶的是，通过计算机视觉算法，我们可以量化这些公园图片中弯曲边缘的数量。
And it turns out if the park had more curved edges in it, people wrote more about topics related to spirituality and their life journey.
事实证明，如果公园有更多的弯曲边缘，人们会写更多有关灵性和人生旅程的主题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wild.
狂野。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Pretty wild.
相当狂野。
It gets wilder.
它变得更加狂野。
So that was very correlational, and we kind of found, I don't know, maybe there's some kind of confounding variables there.
所以这是非常相关的，我们发现，我不知道，也许那里存在某种令人困惑的变量。
So we did another study where we actually manipulated, we had images that had more curved edges or less curved edges, and also images that were more natural and less natural, and we did an online study where we would show people one image and then had them select, when you look at this image, do you think it's related more to nature or time or spirituality?
所以我们做了另一项研究，我们实际上操纵了，我们有更多弯曲边缘或更少弯曲边缘的图像，还有更自然和不太自然的图像，我们做了一项在线研究，我们向人们展示一张图像，然后让他们选择，当你看这个图像时，你认为它与自然、时间或灵性更多相关吗？
And it turns out if the picture had more curved edges in it, people were more likely to say, "Yeah, this picture kind of has me thinking about spirituality and my life journey." So that's causal.
事实证明，如果图片中有更多弯曲的边缘，人们更有可能说，“是的，这张图片让我思考灵性和我的人生旅程。”所以这是因果关系。
It gets even crazier.
它变得更加疯狂。
Because we were kind of wondering, when we looked at some of the images, we were saying that some of the images that don't have as much curved edge structure, they have more water in them.
因为我们有点想知道，当我们查看一些图像时，我们说一些没有那么多弯曲边缘结构的图像，它们里面有更多的水。
So maybe there's something about having water that maybe makes you think less about spirituality.
所以也许喝水会让你更少思考灵性。
I don't know if I believe that, but maybe there's something in there.
我不知道我是否相信这一点，但也许里面有什么东西。
So we did something even crazier.
所以我们做了一些更疯狂的事情。
We took these images, and we scrambled them.
我们拍摄了这些图像，并对它们进行了打乱。
So we have this image, and it looks like a park with trees and some water, and then we scramble all the pixels, and now you can't really tell what it is anymore.
所以我们有了这张图像，它看起来像一个有树木和一些水的公园，然后我们打乱所有像素，现在你无法真正分辨出它是什么了。
It just looks kind of like a Jackson Pollock painting.
它看起来有点像杰克逊·波洛克的画作。
It turns out if those scrambled images have more curved edges, people also say they think more about spirituality and their life journey.
事实证明，如果这些乱七八糟的图像有更多的弯曲边缘，人们也会说他们更多地思考灵性和人生旅程。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wild.
狂野。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
So there's something, we don't know the mechanism, but there's something interesting there about just perceiving these curved edges that has people thinking more about spirituality.
所以有一些东西，我们不知道其中的机制，但有一些有趣的东西，只是感知这些弯曲的边缘，让人们更多地思考灵性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it can't be object-related because-
所以它不可能与对象相关，因为-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
they're scrambled.
他们被炒了。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is almost reminiscent-
这几乎让人想起——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of this connect-the-dot experiment, where if the dots are more distantly placed, it seems to trigger some different form of cognition related to creativity.
在这个连点实验中，如果这些点放置得更远，它似乎会触发某种与创造力相关的不同形式的认知。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If nothing else, it's becoming increasingly clear that visual scenes have a profound impact on our cognition, and I don't even know what brain network to think of when we think about spirituality.
如果不出意外的话，越来越明显的是，视觉场景对我们的认知有着深远的影响，我什至不知道当我们思考灵性时，我们会想到什么大脑网络。
Probably somewhere down in the temporal lobe, because if you don't know where something is in the brain, you almost always say- ...
可能在颞叶下方的某个地方，因为如果你不知道大脑里有什么东西，你几乎总是会说——......
it's down in the infratemporal lobe where all the other sort of mysterious stuff is.
它位于颞下叶，所有其他神秘的东西都在那里。
Super interesting.
超级有趣。
This also tells me that I need to introduce more curved edges to my home environment.
这也告诉我，我需要在我的家庭环境中引入更多的弯曲边缘。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
And people seem to really like curved edges, and even they find that in other species, that other species tend to prefer curvature and curved edges.
人们似乎真的很喜欢弯曲的边缘，甚至他们发现在其他物种中，其他物种往往更喜欢曲率和弯曲的边缘。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you had a magic wand, and you could wave that magic wand, and have people change one, maybe two behaviors on a daily and weekly basis-
如果你有一根魔杖，你可以挥动魔杖，让人们每天和每周改变一种、也许两种行为——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
on the basis of everything that you've learned from your work and related work, what would you wish with that wand?
根据您从工作和相关工作中学到的一切，您希望用这根魔杖做什么？
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So I think in a couple things.
所以我认为有几件事。
So one, the easy one is just people need to get out into nature more.
所以，最简单的一个就是人们需要更多地融入大自然。
And they need to do it, especially when they feel mentally fatigued.
他们需要这样做，尤其是当他们感到精神疲劳时。
I think that's easier than saying, "Get off of the devices."
我认为这比说“摆脱这些设备”更容易。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not going to happen.
这不会发生。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not entirely.
不完全是。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Not entirely.
不完全是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
So I think forget about that for a moment.
所以我想暂时忘记这一点。
Go out in nature, and do it without your phone and be engaged with it.
到大自然中去，不带手机，并参与其中。
And if you don't have access to nature, try these simulations.
如果您无法接触大自然，请尝试这些模拟。
Bring nature into your home.
将自然带入您的家。
You can even have fake plants in your home.
您甚至可以在家里种植假植物。
There's been some evidence that even fake plants can work.
有证据表明，即使是假植物也能发挥作用。
Get some nature sounds going.
聆听一些大自然的声音。
Maybe think about where you're going to take your next vacation.
也许想想你下一个假期要去哪里。
Maybe think about going to a national park or something like that.
也许考虑去国家公园或类似的地方。
So that's one thing.
所以这是一回事。
The other thing, and it's building up, in the book, I want to start this nature revolution where we really take this work seriously.
另一件事，在书中，我想开始这场自然革命，我们真正认真对待这项工作。
And I think part of it is that I think everybody has this intuition that nature is good for us, but it's sort of like, eh, it's an amenity, not a necessity.
我认为部分原因是我认为每个人都有这样的直觉，即自然对我们有好处，但这有点像，呃，它是一种便利设施，而不是必需品。
It'd be nice to have, but we don't really need it.
如果有的话就好了，但我们并不真正需要它。
And I think if I wanted to wave my magic wand, I would want to change that to actually, no, nature, these experiences are a necessity, not an amenity.
我想如果我想挥舞我的魔杖，我会想改变它，实际上，不，自然，这些经历是必需品，而不是便利。
And it's not just a necessity because of climate change and things like that.
这不仅仅是因为气候变化等原因而必需的。
It's a necessity for us as humans to reach our full potential.
作为人类，这是充分发挥潜力的必要条件。
We can't reach our full potential without nature.
没有自然，我们就无法充分发挥潜力。
So I think that's another critical element.
所以我认为这是另一个关键因素。
And then I think when people start feeling it and feeling the effects, then I think we need to start changing a lot of things.
然后我认为当人们开始感受到它并感受到其影响时，我认为我们需要开始改变很多事情。
Like schools, they want to take away recess, and they want to take away playtime outside, right?
就像学校一样，他们想要取消课间休息，他们想要取消户外玩耍的时间，对吗？
And that's almost exactly counter to what I would recommend.
这几乎与我的建议完全相反。
I would recommend that we actually want to have more recess and more recess out in nature.
我建议我们实际上想要有更多的休息时间和更多的休息时间到大自然中。
Think about this, Andrew.
想想这个，安德鲁。
This would be incredible, but what if school's like an eight-hour day, what if instead of eight hours of instruction, it was six hours of instruction and two hours of a nature break?
这将是令人难以置信的，但如果学校是每天八小时，如果不是八小时的教学，而是六个小时的教学和两个小时的自然休息怎么办？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd go back to school.
我会回到学校。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Well, Kids might perform better.
嗯，孩子们可能表现得更好。
It actually might be revolutionary.
它实际上可能是革命性的。
Kids might actually perform better.
孩子们实际上可能表现得更好。
Sometimes people talk to me about nature schools and doing all the learning in nature.
有时人们跟我谈论自然学校以及在大自然中进行所有学习。
I'm not so sure about that, like doing calculus when wind is blowing my papers around, but definitely to take a break out in nature.
我对此不太确定，就像风吹着我的论文时做微积分一样，但绝对是为了在大自然中休息一下。
Give the kids a break in nature.
让孩子们在大自然中休息一下。
They might actually learn more.
他们实际上可能会学到更多。
It might be this win-win kind of thing where they would actually learn more from less.
这可能是一种双赢的事情，他们实际上可以从更少的事情中学到更多的东西。
Same thing with work.
工作也是如此。
We would need to redesign schedules around work that maybe your employees will be more productive if you can give them some of these nature breaks.
我们需要围绕工作重新设计时间表，如果你能给你的员工一些自然休息，也许他们的工作效率会更高。
And then, I want to start building out from that.
然后，我想以此为基础开始构建。
It's like we have not built the built environment to improve people's psychological well-being.
这就好像我们没有建造改善人们心理健康的建筑环境。
Right?
正确的？
We basically built the built environment to move goods efficiently, house people efficiently, but when have you ever been in a place where they're like, "We built this school to increase people's directed attention," or, "We built this school to make people more cooperative." What we're finding is that interacting with nature kind of does both things.
我们建造的建筑环境基本上是为了有效地运输货物、有效地安置人员，但是你什么时候去过这样的地方：“我们建造这所学校是为了增加人们的定向注意力”，或者“我们建造这所学校是为了让人们更加合作”。我们发现，与自然的互动可以起到这两方面的作用。
So we need people, there are architects that are starting to do this, but we need to incorporate these natural elements into all built spaces.
所以我们需要人，有些建筑师已经开始这样做，但我们需要将这些自然元素融入到所有建筑空间中。
And then I think, going out even more is that in a city, you want to jam as much nature as possible into cities.
然后我觉得，走出去更多的是，在城市里，你想把尽可能多的自然塞进城市里。
And I love cities.
我喜欢城市。
Cities are great.
城市很棒。
They're beacons of innovation, wealth.
它们是创新和财富的灯塔。
We even find that bigger cities have lower racial biases, and we actually find that depression is lower in bigger cities per capita.
我们甚至发现大城市的种族偏见较低，而且我们实际上发现大城市的人均抑郁症较低。
But we can do a lot more, and I think by kind of naturizing cities, can be really, really beneficial.
但我们可以做更多的事情，我认为通过城市自然化，可以非常非常有益。
And then, a lot of people don't live in cities, but I have family that live in rural areas, and often, yeah, they're surrounded by nature, but it's not really nature they can use.
然后，很多人不住在城市，但我有家人住在农村地区，而且通常，是的，他们被大自然包围，但他们并不是真正可以利用的大自然。
It might be more agricultural.
可能更加农业化。
So I think even in these more rural places, you need to think about, hey, is the nature that's actually there really usable for people to get restoration?
所以我认为即使在这些更农村的地方，你也需要思考，嘿，实际上那里的自然真的可以供人们恢复吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sunai, absolutely love the work you're doing.
Sunai，非常喜欢你正在做的工作。
I especially love it because it's grounded in data.
我特别喜欢它，因为它以数据为基础。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's grounded in laboratory data, and it's grounded in real-world data.
它以实验室数据为基础，也以现实世界的数据为基础。
And I just asked you for two, and I'm actually very gratified that you offered six, I think.
我刚刚向你要了两个，我想我实际上非常高兴你提供了六个。
That's very much the sort of answers I tend to give, right?
这就是我倾向于给出的答案，对吗？
I'm going to ask you one question, but I end up asking you four.
我本来要问你一个问题，但最后我问了你四个问题。
So that's not just welcome, it's invited and encouraged here.
因此，这不仅是受欢迎的，而且是受到邀请和鼓励的。
I think the work you're doing is extremely important because it's highlighting these principles of brain function and psychological health that are unaware to most people about themselves and others.
我认为你正在做的工作非常重要，因为它强调了大多数人不了解自己和他人的大脑功能和心理健康的原则。
Certainly, even as a neuroscientist, I like to think of myself as psychologically-minded.
当然，即使作为一名神经科学家，我也喜欢认为自己具有心理学头脑。
This notion of passive but depleting, it just has never occurred to me until I got familiar with your work, and more so during today's conversation.
在我熟悉你的工作之前，我从未想到过这种被动但令人疲惫的概念，在今天的谈话中更是如此。
I also am delighted, believe it or not, that you didn't use the word forest bathing.
不管你信不信，我也很高兴你没有使用森林浴这个词。
I guess that's two words.
我想这是两个字。
And I want to be very clear, it's not because I don't think forest bathing is a wonderful concept.
我想说得很清楚，这并不是因为我不认为森林浴是一个很棒的概念。
What is more lovely than bathing in a forest?
还有什么比在森林里沐浴更可爱的呢？
I imagine people maybe with clothes, minimal clothes, maybe no clothes, who knows, in the forest, greenery everywhere, and we've heard of this incredible set of discoveries and this concept from Japanese laboratories about forest bathing.
我想象人们可能穿着衣服，穿着最少的衣服，也许不穿衣服，谁知道，在森林里，到处都是绿色植物，我们已经听说过日本实验室关于森林浴的一系列令人难以置信的发现和概念。
But the problem with the term forest bathing is that it implies you need a forest.
但森林浴这个词的问题在于它意味着你需要一片森林。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it implies that you need to bathe, which sounds like a vacation.
而且暗示着你需要洗澡，听起来就像是在度假。
It sounds like something that you really have to devote a ton of time to.
这听起来像是你确实需要投入大量时间的事情。
And so I'm a big fan of forest bathing, as a concept and as a practice, but I really appreciate that your work is focused on what people can do in a real practical sense as we bring more nature-
因此，我非常喜欢森林浴，无论是作为一种概念还是一种实践，但我真的很欣赏你的工作重点关注人们在真正的实际意义上可以做的事情，因为我们带来了更多的自然——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
into cities, into homes, into rural areas, that's accessible.
进入城市、进入家庭、进入农村地区，这是触手可及的。
Hopefully, people will forest bathe.
希望人们能够进行森林浴。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Continue to or go out-
继续或出去-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and forest bathe.
和森林浴。
But what you're talking about is very practical, and very feasible for people to get 20 minutes alone, nature walk, maybe with a dog, maybe just alone, disconnect, as a way to be able to engage focused attention better.
但你所说的非常实用，对于人们来说非常可行，可以单独呆20分钟，在大自然中散步，也许带着狗，也许只是独自一人，与外界隔绝，作为一种能够更好地集中注意力的方式。
Or who knows, maybe just to get back into life and enjoy non-focused attention, hanging out with your kids or your spouse-
或者谁知道呢，也许只是为了回到生活中，享受不集中的注意力，与你的孩子或你的配偶一起出去玩——
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or whatever it might be, friends.
或者无论是什么，朋友们。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, very excited about the book, which comes out soon.
因此，我对这本书感到非常兴奋，因为这本书即将出版。
We'll put a link to the book in the show note captions, of course.
当然，我们会在节目注释标题中放置该书的链接。
And I'm delighted you're doing this work and that you're going to continue to do this work, even though you have the unfortunate honor of being a chair, which basically means you get a lot of administrative duties.
我很高兴你正在做这项工作，并且你将继续做这项工作，尽管你不幸有幸担任主席，这基本上意味着你承担了很多行政职责。
You've still kept up your research and are continuing to.
你仍然坚持你的研究并且仍在继续。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If ever there was an example of where research can really be put to practical use for people, and the book is helping disseminate that, certainly this conversation will as well.
如果有一个例子表明研究可以真正为人们带来实际用途，并且这本书正在帮助传播这一点，那么这次对话当然也会如此。
It's you and what you're doing.
这是你和你正在做的事情。
So thank you.
所以谢谢你。
I really appreciate it, and come back again and update us on the latest data-
我真的很感激，并再次回来向我们更新最新数据-
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Great
太棒了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
when there are more data.
当有更多数据时。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Great.
太棒了。
Thanks so much for having me on the podcast.
非常感谢您邀请我参加播客。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Will do, and I'll get into nature today.
可以，今天我就走进大自然。
Dr. Marc Berman:
马克·伯曼博士：
Great.
太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Mark Berman.
感谢您参加今天与马克·伯曼博士的讨论。
To learn more about his work and to find a link to the presale of his new book, please see the show note captions.
要了解有关他的作品的更多信息并找到他的新书预售的链接，请参阅演出说明文字。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的关注按钮来关注播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。
And you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.
您现在可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab Podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客、嘉宾或您希望我考虑在 Huberman 实验室播客中讨论的主题有意见，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这本书是我花了五年多时间编写的，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验。
And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
它涵盖了从睡眠到运动再到压力控制的所有协议，以及与注意力和动机相关的协议，当然，我为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." And if you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。
So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。
Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
同样，所有社交媒体平台上都是 Huberman Lab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available completely zero cost.
所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件即可。
And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Mark Berman.
再次感谢您参加今天与马克·伯曼博士的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
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使用全新的美国运通石墨商务现金无限卡完成业务。
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所有符合条件的购买均可享受 2% 无限现金返还，通过美国运通旅游在线预订的航班和预付费酒店可享受 5% 无限现金返还，而且灵活的消费能力可随着您的业务增长而增长，您将有信心继续发展。
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立即申请，在成为该卡会员后的前六个月内，在新卡上进行符合条件的消费满 50,000 美元后，即可获得 1,500 美元现金返还的迎新优惠。
Terms apply.
条款适用。
Learn more at go.amex/graphite.
如需了解更多信息，请访问 go.amex/graphite。