How Mitochondria Control Your Metabolism | Dr. Jared Rutter
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
There's a widely accepted hypothesis that mitochondria with excess energy leads to problems.
有一个广泛接受的假设，即线粒体能量过剩会导致问题。
Many people that are listening have probably heard of reactive oxygen species.
许多听众可能听说过活性氧。
This is forms of oxygen that become reactive and end up spinning out and damaging proteins and nucleic acids.
这是氧气的形式，会变得活跃并最终旋转并破坏蛋白质和核酸。
And I think it is widely accepted that one of the contributors to that is mitochondria that have too much energy.
我认为人们普遍认为造成这一现象的原因之一是线粒体能量过多。
Basically, the form that energy takes when it's extracted from the food we eat and before it's converted to ATP is powering the mitochondria.
基本上，从我们吃的食物中提取能量并在转化为 ATP 之前所采取的能量形式为线粒体提供动力。
And when that mitochondria is overpowered, that leads to a state that is very susceptible to generation of these reactive species that end up damaging our genome, creating mutations, and damaging proteins, and creating many of the problems that we see.
当线粒体被压倒时，就会导致一种非常容易产生这些活性物质的状态，这些活性物质最终会破坏我们的基因组，产生突变，破坏蛋白质，并造成我们看到的许多问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到胡伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. Jared Rutter.
今天我的嘉宾是贾里德·鲁特博士。
Dr. Jared Rutter is a professor of biochemistry at University of Utah and an investigator with the Howard Hughes Medical Institute.
Jared Rutter 博士是犹他大学生物化学教授，也是霍华德休斯医学研究所的研究员。
He is one of the world's top experts in the biology of mitochondria and metabolism.
他是线粒体和新陈代谢生物学领域的世界顶级专家之一。
Mitochondria are known as the powerhouse of the cell.
线粒体被称为细胞的动力室。
But as you'll learn today, they do far more than just power our cells.
但正如您今天将了解到的，它们的作用远不止为我们的细胞提供动力。
They also determine how much energy goes into making new cells, to making sure that cells stay healthy, and to fighting off disease.
它们还确定有多少能量用于制造新细胞、确保细胞保持健康以及抵抗疾病。
Today's conversation explains how mitochondria do that and clarifies what your metabolism really is.
今天的对话解释了线粒体如何做到这一点，并阐明了您的新陈代谢到底是什么。
And in doing so, you will learn that you don't have one metabolism.
在这样做的过程中，你会发现你没有一种新陈代谢。
Your metabolism, as it's called, is actually a reflection of the constellation of all the metabolisms of all the cells in your body.
正如它所说的，你的新陈代谢实际上是你体内所有细胞的所有新陈代谢的星座的反映。
So today's conversation will teach you the real biology of mitochondria, and it will provide a framework for you to make better decisions on the behalf of your health.
因此，今天的对话将教您线粒体的真正生物学知识，并将为您提供一个框架，以便您可以为自己的健康做出更好的决定。
So what follows is a conversation about mitochondria and metabolism unlike any that you've heard from one of the world's premier experts in this topic.
因此，接下来是关于线粒体和新陈代谢的对话，与您从该主题的世界顶级专家之一听到的任何对话不同。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Jared Rutter.
现在我与 Jared Rutter 博士进行讨论。
Dr. Jared Rutter, welcome.
贾里德·鲁特博士，欢迎。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Thanks for having me on.
谢谢你邀请我参加。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have many questions about metabolism, mitochondria, and I know many people do as well.
我对新陈代谢、线粒体有很多疑问，我知道很多人也有同样的疑问。
Most people hear the word metabolism, and they think calories in, calories out.
大多数人听到新陈代谢这个词，他们会想到卡路里的输入和输出。
They hear the word mitochondria, and they probably think the powerhouse of the cell.
他们听到线粒体这个词，可能会想到细胞的动力源。
And that's all great.
这一切都很棒。
People are becoming more educated about cells and their bits and pieces and what they do.
人们对细胞、细胞的各个部分以及它们的作用越来越了解。
You have a very different perspective that is very important, I believe, for people to understand.
我相信，你有一个非常不同的观点，这对于人们理解来说非常重要。
Maybe we could start off by talking about how the metabolism of any one cell in our body relates to what we call our metabolism-
也许我们可以首先讨论我们体内任何一个细胞的新陈代谢如何与我们所说的新陈代谢相关——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the collective metabolism of all those cells.
所有这些细胞的集体新陈代谢。
And as you go, if you could take any liberties you want to tell us what we probably don't know about the "powerhouses of the cell."
顺便说一句，如果您可以冒昧地说一下，您想告诉我们关于“细胞的动力源”我们可能不知道的事情。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
When we think about metabolism, as you say, I think all of us think about metabolism in terms of our body's metabolism, our metabolic rate.
当我们考虑新陈代谢时，正如你所说，我认为我们所有人都从我们身体的新陈代谢、新陈代谢率的角度来思考新陈代谢。
As you say, calories in, calories out.
正如你所说，卡路里摄入，卡路里消耗。
What that is really, our body's metabolism is basically the sum total of what we ingest, what we eat, what we drink, what we breathe.
事实上，我们身体的新陈代谢基本上是我们摄入、吃、喝、呼吸的总和。
That enters our body and gets processed, and the results of that processing are individual molecules, amino acids and sugars and so forth, that then distribute throughout the body, go into individual cells, and enter this process that we call metabolism, and we call cellular metabolism.
它进入我们的身体并被加工，加工的结果是单个分子、氨基酸和糖等，然后分布在整个身体中，进入单个细胞，并进入这个我们称之为新陈代谢的过程，我们称之为细胞新陈代谢。
And I think it's reasonable to think of cellular metabolism as almost like a map.
我认为将细胞新陈代谢视为一张地图是合理的。
There's an entry point, a molecule of glucose or sugar comes into a cell, and that sugar can be chemically modified in a variety of ways to fulfill the needs of that cell.
有一个入口点，葡萄糖或糖分子进入细胞，并且可以通过多种方式对糖进行化学修饰以满足该细胞的需求。
And then that cell does whatever it needs to do with the molecules it takes in to fulfill its particular functions.
然后，该细胞会利用它所吸收的分子做任何需要做的事情，以实现其特定的功能。
And then that leads to the release of waste products that we eliminate from our body, and that is sort of the organismal metabolism, the metabolism of our body.
然后这会导致我们从体内消除的废物的释放，这就是有机体的新陈代谢，我们身体的新陈代谢。
And as you allude to, I think something that maybe many people don't understand is that cellular piece of it.
正如你所提到的，我认为也许很多人不理解的是其中的细胞部分。
The metabolism of our body is really the sum total of the metabolism of each one of our 30 trillion cells or so.
我们身体的新陈代谢实际上是我们大约 30 万亿个细胞中每一个细胞新陈代谢的总和。
That's really where my passions lie, are those individual cells and how they choose to take up certain nutrients, how they choose how to process them, turn them into other things, how they use them to fulfill their particular functions, and how that's regulated.
这确实是我的热情所在，那些个体细胞以及它们如何选择吸收某些营养物质，它们如何选择如何处理它们，将它们转化为其他东西，它们如何使用它们来实现其特定功能，以及如何对其进行调节。
The masterful coordination of each of those cells working together to allow us to be sitting here talking to one another and go out and run or whatever we do.
每个细胞的巧妙协调共同努力，使我们能够坐在这里互相交谈，然后出去跑步或做任何我们做的事情。
It's a beautiful orchestration, but that happens at the level of individual cells, and I think that's one of the fascinating things that is maybe a little bit less understood.
这是一个美丽的编排，但它发生在单个细胞的水平上，我认为这是令人着迷的事情之一，但人们可能不太了解。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If we were to just take the single-cell view for a moment, and I know that aging isn't your specific area of interest, but one thing that's always intrigued me, because my postdoc advisor once came down the hall and said, "Why do I have so much less energy than I used to?" And he had a ton of energy, so that- ...
如果我们暂时从单细胞的角度来看，我知道衰老不是你感兴趣的具体领域，但有一件事一直让我感兴趣，因为我的博士后顾问曾经走过大厅说：“为什么我的精力比以前少了这么多？”而且他精力充沛，所以——
was like, "I wonder what he used to be like." But it's a great question.
就像，“我想知道他以前是什么样子。”但这是一个很好的问题。
He used to do this every once in a while, just ask these very basic questions that no one else on our halls at Stanford could really answer.
他以前偶尔会这样做，只是问这些非常基本的问题，而斯坦福大学大厅里的其他人都无法真正回答这些问题。
Why does a kid have so much energy and when we're older, we don't?
为什么孩子的精力那么充沛，而我们长大了却没有了？
People say, "Well, people are moving less.
人们说：“嗯，人们的活动减少了。
The tissues are wearing out." But at the level of energy production, are we aware, as biologists at this point in history, as to why a young cell, could be muscle cell, it could be neuron, whatever, versus an older version of that cell, why it either produces less energy, I don't know if it does, I'm guessing it might, but why the whole body just seems to have less get up and go?
纸巾已经磨损了。”但在能量产生的层面上，作为历史上这个时刻的生物学家，我们是否意识到为什么一个年轻的细胞可能是肌肉细胞，它可能是神经元，无论如何，与该细胞的旧版本相比，为什么它产生的能量更少，我不知道是否如此，我猜可能是这样，但为什么整个身体似乎很少起床和走动？
Do we have an answer for that?
我们对此有答案吗？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
I think we have a partial answer for that.
我认为我们对此有部分答案。
I think that's definitely a frontier of science, is trying to understand exactly what goes wrong during aging.
我认为这绝对是科学的前沿，试图准确理解衰老过程中出了什么问题。
There's many aspects to it.
这有很多方面。
As you alluded to, one of my passions also is the mitochondria, and I think it's almost universally the case that mitochondria become less energized, less effective, let's say, as we age.
正如你所提到的，我的热情之一也是线粒体，我认为几乎普遍的情况是，随着我们年龄的增长，线粒体变得不那么充满活力，效率越来越低。
And the reasons for that are to some extent clear, but I think largely unclear.
其原因在某种程度上是明确的，但我认为很大程度上还不清楚。
But that is definitely a feature of the aging process.
但这绝对是衰老过程的一个特征。
There is this sort of aspect of accumulation of damage.
存在这种损害累积的方面。
Living in the world we live in, as I alluded to before, this orchestration of metabolism that happens throughout the body, that's hard, it's expensive.
正如我之前提到的，生活在我们生活的世界中，新陈代谢发生在整个身体中，这很困难，也很昂贵。
And it's expensive not only in terms of what we need to eat to fuel it, but it's expensive in terms of the damage that can come as a side effect of that.
它的昂贵不仅在于我们需要吃什么来补充能量，而且就其副作用可能带来的损害而言也是昂贵的。
And the accumulation of that damage over time is certainly correlated strongly with aging.
随着时间的推移，这种损害的积累肯定与衰老密切相关。
And I think there's some really nice evidence in models where we can do genetics, in animal models, that suggest that that accumulation of damage is a big part of the aging process.
我认为在我们可以进行遗传学研究的模型中，在动物模型中，有一些非常好的证据表明，损伤的积累是衰老过程的重要组成部分。
And it's a huge area of interest in the field, is trying to understand how you can decrease the onset of damage, how you can reverse damage that comes.
这是该领域一个巨大的兴趣领域，它试图了解如何减少损害的发生，如何扭转所带来的损害。
One thing that I like about how you ask that question is thinking about that in the context of the cell.
我喜欢你问这个问题的方式之一是在细胞的背景下思考这个问题。
Which again, I don't think we tend to think of aging as a cellular phenomenon, but I think fundamentally it almost has to be.
再说一次，我不认为我们倾向于将衰老视为一种细胞现象，但我认为从根本上来说它几乎必须如此。
We are made up of cells.
我们是由细胞组成的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
And the processes that lead to aging are the accumulation of processes that happen at the level of individual cells.
导致衰老的过程是在单个细胞水平上发生的过程的累积。
And I think in a way, we're at the precipice of understanding a lot of this because of the tools that we are starting to have access to that will help us better understand cause and effect and the specific molecular features of the aging process.
我认为在某种程度上，我们正处于理解这一点的边缘，因为我们开始使用的工具将帮助我们更好地理解衰老过程的因果关系以及特定的分子特征。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's talk about mitochondria.
我们来谈谈线粒体。
Perhaps surprisingly, I'm going to ask you why you study them, with the caveat that they are incredibly interesting.
也许令人惊讶的是，我会问你为什么要研究它们，并警告你它们非常有趣。
They are involved in energy production and metabolism.
它们参与能量产生和新陈代谢。
But what specifically drew you to mitochondria versus all the other pieces of cells or parts of the body or organs that you could've worked on?
但是，与您可以研究的所有其他细胞或身体部位或器官相比，是什么特别吸引您选择线粒体呢？
Why the mitochondria?
为什么是线粒体？
What's so sticky about those-
那些东西有什么这么粘-
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as a place to, you devote a significant-
作为一个地方，你投入了重要的-
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
fraction of your life to them.
你生命中的一小部分给了他们。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It's an area of cell biology, an area of sort of the details of how life works.
这是细胞生物学的一个领域，是一个研究生命如何运作的细节的领域。
One of these things that is, in my view, just a brilliant example of taking chemistry of incredible complexity and making it work effectively inside of a living cell.
在我看来，其中之一就是利用极其复杂的化学物质并使其在活细胞内有效发挥作用的一个绝妙例子。
Mitochondria are believed to have been the result of an endosymbiotic event where a bacterium, a free-living bacterium, was engulfed by another cell, and in a way kind of domesticated-
线粒体被认为是内共生事件的结果，其中一种细菌，一种自由生活的细菌，被另一个细胞吞噬，并以某种方式被驯化-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So wild to think about
如此疯狂地思考
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
...
...
by that cell.
通过那个细胞。
Totally wild.
完全狂野。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm sure people are following, but in case there's somebody who's not, what Jared is saying is that our cells basically were invaded by a bacterium, and then that bacterium became part of our stable genome going forward.
我确信人们在关注，但万一有人没有关注，贾里德所说的是，我们的细胞基本上被细菌入侵，然后该细菌成为我们稳定基因组的一部分。
It went into what we call the germline, and therefore was propagated from parents to kids.
它进入了我们所说的种系，因此从父母传播给孩子。
And so now mitochondria live in us, but they didn't start off living in us.
所以现在线粒体生活在我们体内，但它们并不是一开始就生活在我们体内的。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we hear that about the gut microbiome.
我们听说过有关肠道微生物组的说法。
We have these trillions of bacteria that live in us, and we colonize, and we can recolonize, take antibiotics, then you need to replenish, eat your yogurt, and so on.
我们体内生活着数万亿的细菌，我们会定居，我们可以重新定居，服用抗生素，然后你需要补充营养，吃酸奶，等等。
But the fact that the mitochondria made it stably into our genome and are transmitted from one generation to the next, we think of them as us.
但事实上，线粒体已经稳定地进入我们的基因组，并从一代传到下一代，我们认为它们就是我们。
But you're saying there is solid evidence that they came from outside of humans.
但你是说有确凿的证据表明它们来自人类之外。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
I think that's the only model that I think any of us as scientists have any good reason to believe.
我认为这是我们科学家有充分理由相信的唯一模型。
And that's fascinating history, right?
那是一段令人着迷的历史，对吧？
That there was a bacteria and another cell that got together, and together that combination could do things that any one of either of them on their own could not do, and that they worked together in some way to enable the evolution of complex life.
一种细菌和另一种细胞结合在一起，这种组合可以完成其中任何一个细胞单独无法完成的事情，并且它们以某种方式协同工作，从而实现了复杂生命的进化。
Eukaryotes, which are the type of cell that resulted from that combined situation that we were just talking about, these are all the organisms that we see around us.
真核生物是我们刚才讨论的综合情况产生的细胞类型，这些都是我们在我们周围看到的生物体。
Plants, animals, fungi even, are all the result of these two cells getting together and making peace, so to speak, and teaming up to make this synergistic cell.
植物、动物、甚至真菌，都是这两个细胞聚集在一起、和平相处的结果，可以说，联合起来形成这个协同细胞。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is it synergistic?
是协同作用吗？
Forgive me for interrupting, but-
请原谅我打扰，但是——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
when I think about viruses, I think viruses have their own sort of intelligence.
当我想到病毒时，我认为病毒有自己的智能。
They hijack the genomes of cells, and they either kill those cells or if they're really smart, they keep those cells alive, and use those cells to continue to live, and then propagate through the behavior of an animal, like the rabies virus.
它们劫持细胞的基因组，它们要么杀死这些细胞，要么如果它们真的很聪明，它们会让这些细胞存活，并利用这些细胞继续生存，然后通过动物的行为传播，就像狂犬病病毒一样。
Like, "Oh, let's get this animal aggressive so that it bites." And then, viruses don't think, but they have an intelligence.
就像，“哦，让我们让这只动物变得有攻击性，让它咬人。”然后，病毒不会思考，但它们有智慧。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do we know that the mitochondria were benefiting the cells and the cells were benefiting the mitochondria, or could have this been a takeover by the mitochondria?
我们是否知道线粒体使细胞受益，细胞也使线粒体受益，或者这可能是线粒体接管的？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
This is a bit of a philosophical question.
这是一个有点哲学问题。
Of course, we don't have a record of what exactly happened when and who benefited in real time.
当然，我们没有实时记录到底发生了什么、何时以及谁受益。
But one thing we do know is all of complex life resulted From cells that underwent that event one time or multiple times, but all of complex life evolved from that.
但我们确实知道的一件事是，所有复杂生命都是由经历过一次或多次该事件的细胞产生的，但所有复杂生命都是由此进化而来的。
And I think that tells us that more than likely, complex life could not result from a bacterium on its own or the archaea, the cell that became the host for that bacteria.
我认为这告诉我们，复杂的生命很可能不可能由细菌本身或古细菌（成为该细菌宿主的细胞）产生。
So I think you can make a compelling argument that this was beneficial, and one reason it was beneficial because it enabled a form of metabolism that wasn't possible before and enabled now a more complex cell to be able to do things metabolically, to be more metabolically efficient and diversified, that it could enable, again, complex life to evolve and totally fascinating history, but I think as you alluded to, also has very interesting implications for life today.
所以我认为你可以提出一个令人信服的论点，证明这是有益的，它是有益的，因为它实现了一种以前不可能的新陈代谢形式，并且现在使更复杂的细胞能够通过代谢来做事，代谢更加高效和多样化，它可以再次使复杂的生命进化和完全令人着迷的历史，但我认为正如你所提到的，对今天的生命也有非常有趣的影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I would like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Joovv.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Joovv。
Joovv makes medical-grade red light therapy devices.
Joovv 生产医疗级红光治疗设备。
Now, if there's one thing that I have consistently emphasized on this podcast is the incredible impact that light can have on our biology and our health.
现在，如果我在这个播客中一直强调一件事，那就是光对我们的生物学和健康产生的令人难以置信的影响。
Now, in addition to sunlight, which I've talked about a lot on this podcast, red light, near-infrared, and infrared light have been specifically shown to have positive effects on improving numerous aspects of cellular and organ health.
现在，除了我在这个播客中多次谈论的阳光之外，红光、近红外光和红外光已被具体证明对改善细胞和器官健康的许多方面具有积极作用。
These include faster muscle recovery, improved skin health, wound healing, improvements in acne, reduced pain and inflammation, improved mitochondrial function, and even improvements in vision.
这些包括更快的肌肉恢复、改善皮肤健康、伤口愈合、改善痤疮、减少疼痛和炎症、改善线粒体功能，甚至改善视力。
Nowadays, there are a lot of red light devices out there, but what sets Joovv lights apart and why they're my preferred red light therapy device is that they use clinically proven wavelengths, meaning they use the specific wavelengths of red light, near-infrared, and infrared light in combination to trigger the optimal cellular adaptations.
如今，市面上有很多红光设备，但 Joovv 灯的与众不同之处以及它们成为我首选红光治疗设备的原因在于它们使用经过临床验证的波长，这意味着它们结合使用特定波长的红光、近红外光和红外光来触发最佳的细胞适应。
Personally, I use the Joovv whole body panel about three to four times a week, usually for about 10 to 20 minutes per session, and I use the Joovv handheld light both at home and when I travel.
就我个人而言，我每周使用 Joovv 全身面板大约三到四次，通常每次大约 10 到 20 分钟，并且我在家和旅行时都使用 Joovv 手持灯。
If you would like to try Joovv, they're offering up to $400 off select products for listeners of this podcast.
如果您想尝试 Joovv，他们将为该播客的听众提供精选产品高达 400 美元的折扣。
To learn more, visit Joovv spelled J-O-O-V-V.com/huberman.
要了解更多信息，请访问 Joovv（拼写为 J-O-O-V-V.com/huberman）。
Again, that's J-O-O-V-V.com/huberman.
同样，这是 J-O-O-V-V.com/huberman。
Today's episode is also brought to us by BetterHelp.
今天的节目也是由 BetterHelp 为我们带来的。
BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online.
BetterHelp 提供由持证治疗师完全在线进行的专业治疗。
I've been doing therapy for a long time, and while it's not always easy, every time I do a therapy session, I come away feeling better and knowing that the time was well spent.
我已经做治疗很长时间了，虽然这并不总是那么容易，但每次我做治疗时，我都会感觉更好，并且知道时间花得值。
With BetterHelp, they make it extremely easy to find an expert therapist who can help provide the benefits that come through effective therapy.
通过 BetterHelp，他们可以非常轻松地找到可以帮助提供有效治疗带来的好处的专家治疗师。
And the data say it works.
数据表明它有效。
BetterHelp has an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for its live sessions based on over 1.7 million client reviews.
根据超过 170 万条客户评论，BetterHelp 的现场会议平均评分为 4.9 分（满分 5 分）。
Also, because BetterHelp is done entirely online, it's extremely time efficient.
此外，由于 BetterHelp 完全在线完成，因此非常省时。
If you would like to try BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month.
如果您想尝试 BetterHelp，请访问 betterhelp.com/huberman，第一个月可享受 10% 的折扣。
Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman.
再说一次，这是 betterhelp.com/huberman。
Could we explore a little bit of how mitochondria getting into these cells were able to make it stably into their genome and propagate?
我们能否探索一下进入这些细胞的线粒体如何能够稳定地进入其基因组并繁殖？
This isn't going to be a conversation about genetics per se, but maybe as just two points of background for people like if any of our cells have something put into them, let's say a physical object like a splinter, little tiny piece of splinter stays in the cell, and then you procreate with somebody.
这并不是一场关于遗传学本身的对话，但也许只是为人们提供两点背景知识，比如我们的任何细胞中是否放入了某种东西，比如说一个像碎片这样的物理物体，一小片碎片留在细胞中，然后你和某人生育后代。
You don't expect-
你没想到——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that child will have that-
那个孩子将会有——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
little bits of splinter in their cells.
他们的细胞里有小碎片。
But if the germline, so the eggs or the sperm have something incorporated into them, then potentially it could propagate.
但如果种系，即卵子或精子中含有某种物质，那么它就有可能繁殖。
That's why they call germline-
这就是为什么他们称之为种系-
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as opposed to somatic cells.
与体细胞相反。
I think most people aren't aware of that.
我想大多数人都没有意识到这一点。
It makes perfect sense once you hear it.
一旦你听到它，它就非常有道理。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But you're talking about many years ago, a cell having this bacterium go into it, and then it was somehow able to stably represent itself in the genome so that propagated forward.
但你说的是很多年前，一个含有这种细菌的细胞进入其中，然后它以某种方式能够在基因组中稳定地代表自己，从而向前传播。
And eventually, it has to be in the germline of whatever primordial homo sapiens-
最终，它必须存在于任何原始智人的种系中——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
were there.
在那里。
Otherwise, your kids-
否则，你的孩子——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I, you wouldn't have mitochondria in us.
我，你体内不会有线粒体。
How do we think that might have happened?
我们认为这可能是如何发生的？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
The main genome of the cell, the cellular genome, its DNA contained typically in the nucleus of the cell.
细胞的主要基因组，即细胞基因组，其 DNA 通常包含在细胞核中。
Mitochondria exist in the cytosol outside the nucleus.
线粒体存在于细胞核外的细胞质中。
One of the interesting things about mitochondria, which I think is totally fascinating and has really interesting disease implications and worthy of talking about, we may or may not come back to it, is that mitochondria have their own separate genome that is sort of a relic of the bacterium that they are the descendants of.
关于线粒体的一个有趣的事情，我认为它非常令人着迷，并且具有非常有趣的疾病影响，值得谈论，我们可能会也可能不会回到它，那就是线粒体有自己独立的基因组，这是它们作为后代的细菌的遗迹。
It's in a circle like the bacterial genomes, whereas the nuclear genome of a eukaryotic cell is linear chromosomes.
它像细菌基因组一样呈圆形，而真核细胞的核基因组是线性染色体。
And that genome performs very essential functions and codes very important proteins that enable our mitochondria to function as the powerhouse of the cell, which we know them to be, to enable the extraction of usable energy from the food that we eat.
该基因组执行非常重要的功能并编码非常重要的蛋白质，使我们的线粒体能够充当细胞的动力室（我们知道它们就是这样），从而能够从我们吃的食物中提取可用的能量。
So as you alluded to, those cytoplasmic mitochondria somehow make it from generation to generation, and one of the interesting features of them being cytoplasmic is they're completely inherited from the mom, from the egg.
正如你所提到的，这些细胞质线粒体以某种方式代代相传，它们是细胞质的一个有趣的特征是它们完全是从母亲、从卵子继承的。
Because as you know, when the sperm invades the egg, the genome from the sperm gets into the egg, fertilizes it.
因为如你所知，当精子侵入卵子时，精子的基因组就会进入卵子，使其受精。
The cytoplasm of the sperm does not.
精子的细胞质则不然。
So the mitochondrial genome of you came completely from your mother.
所以你的线粒体基因组完全来自你的母亲。
Mine came completely from my mother.
我的完全来自我母亲。
And again, that has interesting implications for the inheritance of diseases that are mitochondrial in origin.
再说一遍，这对于线粒体起源的疾病的遗传具有有趣的意义。
But that's sort of how we think it works.
但这就是我们认为的运作方式。
It basically propagates from the egg upon fertilization, then it gets distributed to all the cells, including the germline that that fertilized embryo will have, and then gets passed on to the next generation in the same way.
它基本上在受精时从卵子繁殖，然后分布到所有细胞，包括受精胚胎将具有的种系，然后以相同的方式传递给下一代。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
ratcheting toward the actual functioning of mitochondria.
逐步实现线粒体的实际功能。
Maybe you gave a beautiful picture of the mitochondria not in the nucleus of the cell, but in the cytoplasm, so still inside the cell.
也许你给出的线粒体的美丽图片不是在细胞核中，而是在细胞质中，所以仍在细胞内部。
And most people will probably remember from their high school biology, a picture of a cell always looks round.
大多数人可能还记得高中生物学中的内容：细胞的图片总是看起来是圆形的。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm guessing you're going to tell us that the mitochondria can be distributed lots of places in the cell, because a lot of cells aren't round.
我猜你会告诉我们线粒体可以分布在细胞中的很多地方，因为很多细胞不是圆形的。
A lot of them look hairy, or they have long extensions like neurons.
其中很多看起来毛茸茸的，或者有像神经元一样的长延伸物。
Is it fair to say that you can find mitochondria everywhere in a cell, so no matter what shape it is, it's got mitochondria everywhere?
是不是可以说，细胞中到处都可以找到线粒体，那么无论细胞是什么形状，到处都有线粒体呢？
And if so, what is the importance of having mitochondria distributed spatially through the cell?
如果是这样，线粒体在细胞中空间分布的重要性是什么？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So maybe we go, so that people know where we're going, we'll talk about the spatial distribution because it turns out that's very important.
所以也许我们会去，以便人们知道我们要去哪里，我们会讨论空间分布，因为事实证明这非常重要。
We'll talk about the functioning, and then I want to talk about time as a factor.
我们将讨论功能，然后我想谈谈时间这个因素。
And that can be a little bit abstract for people, so we'll come to that.
这对人们来说可能有点抽象，所以我们会讨论这个。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Spatially, one of my scientist colleagues might call me on this, but to mine, I can't think of a place that exists in cells where there aren't mitochondria.
在空间上，我的一位科学家同事可能会在这个问题上打电话给我，但对我来说，我想不出细胞中存在没有线粒体的地方。
And I think, as you alluded to, it's a little bit dangerous for me to talk about neurons with a neuroscientist.
我认为，正如你所提到的，对我来说与神经科学家谈论神经元有点危险。
I am not a neuroscientist, but one of the brilliant bodies of work that's been done on mitochondria has been done in neurons.
我不是神经科学家，但在线粒体上所做的出色工作之一是在神经元上完成的。
It's fascinating, these neurons that have one-meter long projections, and mitochondria transit from the cell body down those projections, and as best we can tell, those mitochondria play essential roles at the ends of those projections, typically being able to generate, again, usable energy.
令人着迷的是，这些神经元具有一米长的投影，线粒体从细胞体向下传输到这些投影，据我们所知，这些线粒体在这些投影的末端发挥着重要作用，通常能够再次产生可用的能量。
They're extracting the energy from the food that we eat and powering the neurotransmission, the functions of those nerve terminals.
它们从我们吃的食物中提取能量，并为神经传递和神经末梢的功能提供动力。
And I think that's true of virtually every cell in our body.
我认为我们身体中几乎每个细胞都是如此。
The extraction of energy and turning it into a usable form, typically in the form of ATP, adenosine triphosphate, obviously, that is the energy currency that's used by almost every cell in our body, and that is a key function of mitochondria.
提取能量并将其转化为可用的形式，通常以 ATP、三磷酸腺苷的形式，显然，这是我们体内几乎每个细胞使用的能量货币，也是线粒体的关键功能。
We'll probably come to functions of mitochondria that are outside of just extracting energy.
我们可能会了解线粒体除了提取能量之外的功能。
But that is a critical function of mitochondria, and that ATP is needed in virtually every place of every cell.
但这是线粒体的一个关键功能，几乎每个细胞的每个地方都需要 ATP。
And by having local production, that makes it more efficient.
通过本地生产，可以提高效率。
So, I think spatial distribution is a key part of that.
所以，我认为空间分布是其中的关键部分。
It's fascinating.
这很有趣。
There's been beautiful work that's shown that when a cell is crawling, as cells sometimes do, like an immune cell that sees something it's chasing, there will be a distribution of mitochondria towards that leading edge of the cell.
有一项出色的工作表明，当细胞爬行时，正如细胞有时所做的那样，就像免疫细胞看到它正在追逐的东西一样，线粒体会向细胞的前缘分布。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Which is very energetically expensive to crawl for a cell.
对于一个细胞来说，爬行是非常耗费精力的。
It requires a lot of ATP.
它需要大量的ATP。
And mitochondria will congregate at that leading edge where that ATP is being consumed to make ATP right there, so it can be used.
线粒体会聚集在 ATP 被消耗的前沿，在那里产生 ATP，以便可以使用。
I think it's a fascinating example of that local demand for energy.
我认为这是当地能源需求的一个有趣的例子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm asking some high-level questions, I realize, but is there any reason to believe that a given mitochondria knows what cell it belongs to?
我意识到我问的是一些高级问题，但是有什么理由相信给定的线粒体知道它属于哪个细胞？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are they different?
它们有什么不同吗？
Are the mitochondria in one cell type so very different than the mitochondria in another cell type?
一种细胞类型中的线粒体与另一种细胞类型中的线粒体有很大不同吗？
And are the mitochondria between, let's say, a neuron of the eye versus-- let's get at it, since you're saying you don't want to talk neurons as a per se.
线粒体是介于眼睛神经元和眼睛神经元之间吗——让我们来讨论一下，因为你是说你不想谈论神经元本身。
Like-
就像-
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
We can do it
我们能做到
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
two adjacent skin cells, they're both skin cells.
两个相邻的皮肤细胞，它们都是皮肤细胞。
They have mitochondria in them.
它们体内有线粒体。
But do they know which cell they belong to?
但他们知道自己属于哪个细胞吗？
And do your mitochondria, I'm guessing because they came from your mom's genome, they know that they're different than my mitochondria.
我猜，做你的线粒体，因为它们来自你妈妈的基因组，他们知道它们与我的线粒体不同。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But how much identity do they have?
但他们有多少身份？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I would say this is a topic that is at the frontier of what we know.
我想说这是一个我们所知道的前沿话题。
You're asking some questions that are right at the edge of our current knowledge.
你问的一些问题正是我们目前知识的边缘。
Yeah, mitochondria are different.
是的，线粒体是不同的。
To a first approximation, you could say that virtually every cell in our body has slightly different mitochondria that are particularly suited to the demands of that cell.
初步估计，我们体内的几乎每个细胞都有稍微不同的线粒体，它们特别适合该细胞的需求。
A heart muscle cell, a cardiomyocyte, that cell kind of has one job, and that's to contract every second of every minute of every hour of every day for our entire life.
心肌细胞，心肌细胞，这种细胞有一种工作，那就是在我们的一生中，每一天、每一小时、每一分钟、每一秒都在收缩。
And when it coordinates that contraction with the other cells in the heart, that enables our heart to beat.
当它与心脏中的其他细胞协调收缩时，我们的心脏就能跳动。
That's what its job is.
这就是它的工作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is there any turnover of those cells?
这些细胞有周转吗？
We know neurons don't tend to turn over.
我们知道神经元不会翻转。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Very little.
很少。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, that's reassuring.
嗯，这让人放心。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Very little.
很少。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm glad to hear that, actually.
事实上我很高兴听到这个消息。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
You can imagine that it would be hard to replace that in real time, right?
你可以想象，实时替换它是很困难的，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
I'm a hockey fan, and that's a change on the fly scenario-
我是一名曲棍球迷，这是一个即时变化的场景 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Okay
好的
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
...
...
of biblical proportions.
符合圣经的比例。
So those cardiomyocytes, their mitochondria is wired to consume whatever it has available and make ATP, because that ATP is going to be incredibly important to enable that contraction of that cell and the beating of the heart.
因此，这些心肌细胞及其线粒体会消耗任何可用的物质并产生 ATP，因为 ATP 对于细胞的收缩和心脏的跳动至关重要。
Mitochondria in other cells, for example, like cells that line, that are the stem cells that enable our intestinal lining to be turned over every five to seven days, which is amazing, by the way.
例如，其他细胞中的线粒体，例如细胞内壁的干细胞，使我们的肠道内壁每五到七天翻转一次，顺便说一下，这是令人惊奇的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's amazing.
太棒了。
Your whole gut-
你的整个肠道——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Your whole gut is-
你的整个直觉是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
turns over
翻身
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
...
...
turning over every five to seven days.
每五到七天翻一次。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's wild.
那太疯狂了。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
The lining of your gut.
你的肠道内壁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That is wild.
那是狂野的。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
It is amazing.
太神奇了。
Those stem cells, ATP is not the major demand of those cells.
对于那些干细胞来说，ATP并不是那些细胞的主要需求。
They need to completely duplicate themselves constantly, every day or less.
他们需要不断地、每天或更少地完全复制自己。
So their metabolic program is very different from a cardiomyocyte, which just needs to make ATP to a first approximation.
因此，它们的代谢程序与心肌细胞非常不同，心肌细胞只需要使 ATP 达到第一近似值。
They need to make a whole new cell.
他们需要制造一个全新的细胞。
So, we talked about the metabolism of the organism.
所以，我们谈论了有机体的新陈代谢。
The metabolism of those cells is very complex because it needs to replicate all the DNA, duplicate it to go into a new cell, duplicate all the proteins, duplicate all the membranes, the lipids.
这些细胞的新陈代谢非常复杂，因为它需要复制所有DNA，复制它以进入新细胞，复制所有蛋白质，复制所有膜和脂质。
And that needs to happen rapidly.
这需要迅速发生。
And so that metabolic wiring is completely different.
因此代谢线路是完全不同的。
And again, the mitochondria are fundamental to that.
线粒体对此至关重要。
So those mitochondria are wired in a way that enable them to produce the biomass that's required to make a new cell, quite different from the mitochondria of a cardiomyocyte.
因此，这些线粒体的连接方式使它们能够产生制造新细胞所需的生物量，这与心肌细胞的线粒体截然不同。
And that distinction plays out in virtually all cells in our body, right?
这种区别几乎存在于我们身体的所有细胞中，对吗？
Every one of our cells has some particular purpose, some particular function that it serves for the body.
我们的每一个细胞都有一些特定的用途，为身体提供一些特定的功能。
And the demands of the mitochondria, therefore, of that cell are different depending on the unique functions and demands of that cell.
因此，该细胞对线粒体的需求是不同的，具体取决于该细胞的独特功能和需求。
And so it's a fascinating topic, this diversification of mitochondria.
因此，线粒体的多样化是一个令人着迷的话题。
I think, again, that's something that we're learning about.
我想，这也是我们正在学习的东西。
One of the developments that's really been happening over the last few years, very much a frontier field, is you might imagine a cell that has a complex set of demands.
过去几年中真正发生的发展之一（很大程度上是一个前沿领域）是，您可能会想象一个具有一系列复杂需求的单元。
There's actually evidence, most prominently published recently by Craig Thompson at Sloan Kettering, that showed that in one cell you can have two different kinds of mitochondria that have two different functions, and they're distinct in one cell.
实际上有证据表明，在一个细胞中可以有两种不同类型的线粒体，它们具有两种不同的功能，而且它们在一个细胞中是不同的，最近由斯隆凯特琳大学的克雷格·汤普森发表的最引人注目的证据。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's each of them doing?
他们每个人都在做什么？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
One of them tends to be more biosynthetic, maybe producing biomass, and one of them tends to be more energy extracting and producing ATP.
其中一种往往更多地进行生物合成，可能会产生生物质，而其中一种往往更多地提取能量并产生 ATP。
That's an overly simplified but generally accurate way of thinking about it.
这是一种过于简单但总体上准确的思考方式。
It really emphasizes this unique function of mitochondria that can be adapted, again, for the needs of the cell.
它确实强调了线粒体的这种独特功能，可以再次适应细胞的需要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
So I eat some food and that food's absorbed, and I get glucose circulating in my bloodstream.
所以我吃了一些食物，食物被吸收了，葡萄糖在我的血液中循环。
I've got some stored energy in the form of glycogen, et cetera.
我以糖原等形式储存了一些能量。
And I'm curious, how greedy are the different mitochondria?
我很好奇，不同的线粒体有多贪婪？
Is the name of the game that every cell is trying to get as much energy as it can to produce as much ATP as possible?
游戏的名称是每个细胞都试图获得尽可能多的能量来产生尽可能多的 ATP 吗？
Or are they communicating, and is energy being allocated in some way that's a little bit more democratic?
或者他们是否正在沟通，并且能量是否以某种更民主的方式分配？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's one question.
这是一个问题。
Then framed within that, I could imagine two scenarios.
然后在这个框架内，我可以想象两种场景。
One, non mutually exclusive, where the vasculature just distributes the glucose very well to everything.
一是非相互排斥的，脉管系统将葡萄糖很好地分配到所有部位。
So every cell gets access to some of this glucose and then is just greedily trying to make as much ATP as possible, and the whole system works beautifully.
因此，每个细胞都会获得一些葡萄糖，然后贪婪地尝试产生尽可能多的 ATP，整个系统运行良好。
I could also imagine a situation where there's some shuttling to important structures like the brain.
我还可以想象一种情况，其中有一些穿梭于大脑等重要结构的情况。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like keeping you alive, like breathing, heart, that there's a prioritization of organs.
就像让你活着一样，就像呼吸、心脏一样，器官有优先顺序。
I'm talking about under non stressful conditions.
我说的是在没有压力的情况下。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So yeah.
所以是的。
So how is energy allocated to cells, and then how are cells divvying up the goods?
那么能量是如何分配给细胞的，细胞又是如何分配货物的呢？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It's a brilliant question and a fascinating area of physiology.
这是一个绝妙的问题，也是一个令人着迷的生理学领域。
As you allude to, when we eat, our digestive system starts extracting the constituents of what we eat, again, sugars, amino acids, fats from that food.
正如你提到的，当我们吃东西时，我们的消化系统开始从食物中提取我们所吃东西的成分，即糖、氨基酸、脂肪。
That then triggers signals of different kinds, GLP-1 being one, insulin being another.
然后触发不同类型的信号，GLP-1 是一种信号，胰岛素是另一种信号。
Those signals then are hormones.
这些信号就是激素。
They get secreted, and they go to many cells throughout the body.
它们被分泌出来，并进入全身的许多细胞。
And that tells each individual cell, "We just ate." And the implications of that are different from each cell.
这告诉每个细胞，“我们刚刚吃了东西。”每个细胞的含义都不同。
Some cells don't care.
有些细胞不在乎。
Some cells don't pay attention to that, and they just keep on doing what they were doing.
有些细胞不注意这一点，他们只是继续做他们正在做的事情。
Some cells care a lot.
有些细胞非常关心。
Adipocytes, for example.
例如，脂肪细胞。
These are the fat cells, the cells that make up our fat tissue.
这些是脂肪细胞，构成我们脂肪组织的细胞。
They care a great deal about that, and when they see insulin, what they do is they turn on a protein.
他们非常关心这一点，当他们看到胰岛素时，他们所做的就是打开一种蛋白质。
They start making a protein that will cause glucose to be taken up into that adipocyte, that fat cell.
他们开始制造一种蛋白质，这种蛋白质会导致葡萄糖被脂肪细胞吸收。
And that glucose will then be converted through a series of chemical reactions into a fat molecule.
然后，葡萄糖将通过一系列化学反应转化为脂肪分子。
And then that fat molecule will be stored away in a way that is very safe and enabled to be stored for potentially a very long time.
然后，该脂肪分子将以一种非常安全的方式储存起来，并且可以储存很长时间。
And again, it's a beautiful way for the organism to coordinate, "I just ate." Our energy status as an organism, as a body is great.
再说一遍，这是有机体协调的一种美妙方式，“我刚刚吃了东西。”作为一个有机体、一个身体，我们的能量状态是很好的。
It's very good.
非常好。
So let's squirrel away some of that energy in the form of fat that can be stored in our adipocytes, again, very safely, and can be then used when we go through a period of prolonged fasting, which doesn't happen for us all that frequently, but happened for our ancestors probably much more frequently.
因此，让我们以脂肪的形式储存一些能量，这些能量可以非常安全地储存在我们的脂肪细胞中，然后在我们经历一段长时间禁食时可以使用，这种情况对我们所有人来说并不经常发生，但对我们的祖先来说可能发生得更频繁。
And those adipocytes full of fat from when we ate probably kept our ancestors alive when they went through the periods of prolonged fasting.
当我们的祖先经历长期禁食时，我们吃东西时充满脂肪的脂肪细胞可能使我们的祖先得以生存。
Insulin has other effects on muscle and other cells throughout the body that, again, this is the brilliance of this coordination.
胰岛素对全身的肌肉和其他细胞还有其他影响，这也是这种协调的优点。
The response of different cells to the fed state is different depending on the needs and functions of that cell.
不同细胞对进食状态的反应是不同的，具体取决于该细胞的需求和功能。
Again, some cells don't care at all.
同样，有些细胞根本不在乎。
They're going to just go about and do their business.
他们将继续做他们的事。
And some cells completely rewire their function depending on the metabolic state, the fed/fasted state of the organism.
有些细胞根据生物体的代谢状态、进食/禁食状态完全重新连接其功能。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the picture you just described leads me to conclude that basically every cell obviously knows its job and is not greedily but is diligently fulfilling that role.
因此，你刚才描述的图片让我得出结论，基本上每个细胞显然都知道自己的工作，并且不是贪婪地而是勤奋地履行该角色。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And somehow The whole thing is orchestrated so that we work.
不知何故，整个事情都是精心策划的，以便我们工作。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which I know, I think for some people, it might be like, "Duh," but just think about that.
我知道，我认为对于某些人来说，这可能会是“呃”，但想一想。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
It's crazy.
太疯狂了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The liver cell isn't really talking to the brain cell in any kind of direct way about how much glucose it has access to.
肝细胞实际上并没有以任何直接方式与脑细胞谈论它可以获得多少葡萄糖。
What you describe makes me really understand, for the first time, the brilliance of having this hormone signal insulin, not just as a shuttle.
你所描述的让我第一次真正理解了这种激素信号胰岛素的辉煌，而不仅仅是作为航天飞机。
Because I think most people, we think of insulin sensitive, most people who listen to this podcast-
因为我认为大多数人，我们认为胰岛素敏感，大多数听这个播客的人 -
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or just existed in the world today, they're like, "Oh, you want to be insulin sensitive.
或者只是存在于当今世界，他们就像，“哦，你想要胰岛素敏感。
You want your cells to recognize this signal." But we've never actually talked on this podcast about what exactly that signal is.
你希望你的细胞能够识别这个信号。”但我们从未在这个播客上真正讨论过这个信号到底是什么。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We think about insulin as a shuttle.
我们将胰岛素视为航天飞机。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the size of that signal is saying what's likely to be there, and I realize has all sorts of cool implications that can prepare the cell to like, "Oh, I'm going to go to work hard now-
但该信号的大小说明了可能存在的情况，我意识到它具有各种很酷的含义，可以让细胞做好准备，“哦，我现在要努力工作了——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to be the little squirrel that I am-
成为我这样的小松鼠——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of a fat cell-
脂肪细胞的
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and scroll away as much as I can, or be a brain cell that's like, "Let's go.
然后尽可能地滚动，或者成为一个脑细胞，“我们走吧。
I'm ready to fire action potentials-
我准备好激发动作电位-
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
if I need to."
如果我需要的话。”
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And some cells, like the photoreceptors in the eye, are just doing that.
有些细胞，比如眼睛里的感光细胞，就是这么做的。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Eyes closed, they're firing.
眼睛一闭，他们就开火了。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Eyes open, well, it's tricky, but they're-
睁开眼睛，好吧，这很棘手，但他们-
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
more or less firing.
或多或少的射击。
It's not worth going into, obviously.
显然，这不值得深入。
But in every one of these cells, mitochondria are the ones that are essentially going to drive this ATP thing.
但在每一个细胞中，线粒体都是本质上驱动 ATP 的细胞。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
And that seems extremely efficient, too, to just have essentially one major cellular energy source.
这似乎也非常有效，因为基本上只有一种主要的细胞能源。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So if you could walk us through what happens as glucose gets into the cell and really what we've not done ever on this podcast, and I don't think I've heard elsewhere on any podcasts, maybe it's out there, but is how you go from ATP to actually the cell being able to perform its roles.
因此，如果您能向我们介绍一下葡萄糖进入细胞时会发生什么，以及我们在这个播客中从未做过的事情，我想我在其他播客中没有听说过，也许它就在那里，但它是如何从 ATP 转变为实际上细胞能够发挥其作用的。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I realize there's a lot of biochemistry there, but you've worked on some really linchpin molecules in that pathway that perform very specific roles, and so maybe we could really talk about what basically gets us from ATP to pyruvate, which might scare some people away.
我意识到那里有很多生物化学，但是你已经研究了该途径中一些真正关键的分子，它们发挥着非常具体的作用，所以也许我们真的可以讨论一下是什么让我们从 ATP 变成丙酮酸，这可能会吓跑一些人。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But you'll educate us as to why it's not scary.
但你会告诉我们为什么它并不可怕。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's just super cool.
这真是太酷了。
And why it's so important to have these signals that aren't just like chemicals, they actually mean something-
为什么拥有这些信号如此重要，这些信号不仅仅是化学物质，它们实际上意味着什么——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for the cell.
对于细胞。
Because for me, forgive me for going a little long here, but then I'll shut up, I think if people can really internalize this idea that, yeah, hormones go up, hormones go down.
因为对我来说，请原谅我在这里说得有点长，但我会闭嘴，我想如果人们能够真正内化这个想法，是的，荷尔蒙上升，荷尔蒙下降。
Cortisol goes up with stress, it goes down.
皮质醇会随着压力而上升，也会随着压力而下降。
Cortisol goes up.
皮质醇上升。
Melatonin when you're sleepy.
困倦时服用褪黑素。
It's not just that it's there, but that the size of the signal says a lot more than just be sleepy.
不仅是它的存在，而且信号的大小不仅仅说明了困倦。
It's saying what once happened is different than what's happening now.
这是说曾经发生的事情与现在发生的事情不同。
It sets a stage for what happens next.
它为接下来发生的事情奠定了基础。
And this is really the verbs of biology-
这确实是生物学的动词——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that are harder to communicate even in video.
即使在视频中也很难沟通。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So take us from glucose to ATP and ATP to this thing that we call energy.
因此，让我们从葡萄糖到 ATP，再从 ATP 到我们称之为能量的东西。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah, there's obviously a lot to unpack there.
是的，显然有很多东西需要解压。
Glucose is the dominant, let's say, carbohydrate, the dominant sugar that most our cells are consuming.
葡萄糖是主要的，比如说碳水化合物，是我们大多数细胞消耗的主要糖。
And when glucose is brought into a cell, it goes through, again, a series of chemical reactions that we call glycolysis.
当葡萄糖进入细胞时，它会再次经历一系列我们称之为糖酵解的化学反应。
And I'm going to simplify because there's obviously-
我要简化一下，因为很明显-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure
当然可以
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
...
...
this is the subway map of New York.
这是纽约的地铁图。
There's a lot of branches going all over the place that we're going to ignore for right now.
到处都有很多分支，我们现在将忽略它们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We just need to go north, north or south.
我们只需要向北走，向北走，或者向南走。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
North and south.
北和南。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is pretty much the only direction you can go on the subway.
这几乎是地铁上唯一可以走的方向。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not a New Yorker.
我不是纽约人。
I'm kidding.
我开玩笑的。
I realize you can go across the island.
我知道你可以穿越整个岛。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah, don't insult the New Yorkers, Andrew.
是的，不要侮辱纽约人，安德鲁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
So glucose comes into a cell, goes through a series of chemical reactions, and you mentioned it gets to pyruvate.
因此，葡萄糖进入细胞，经历一系列化学反应，你提到它会形成丙酮酸。
That's the endpoint of glycolysis, this set of chemical reactions.
这是糖酵解（这组化学反应）的终点。
And then pyruvate, there's a decision that has to be made by that cell.
然后是丙酮酸，该细胞必须做出决定。
It can either take that pyruvate into the mitochondria and burn it, essentially, oxidize it, which is essentially burning it, combining it with oxygen, and that is a very effective way to extract all the energy that can be extracted from that glucose via pyruvate.
它可以将丙酮酸带入线粒体并燃烧它，本质上是氧化它，这本质上是燃烧它，将其与氧气结合，这是一种非常有效的方法，可以通过丙酮酸从葡萄糖中提取所有能量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Tell us a little bit about pyruvate.
告诉我们一些关于丙酮酸的信息。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's the best way to conceptualize pyruvate for somebody like me?
对于像我这样的人来说，概念化丙酮酸的最佳方法是什么？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
It's an intermediate.
这是一个中间体。
It's a midpoint, let's say, from glucose.
比方说，这是葡萄糖的中点。
Glucose is a six-carbon molecule, a complex chemical, six-carbon chemical that gets, again, chemically modified down to this pyruvate, which is, as I alluded to, in a way, kind of a pivot point-
葡萄糖是一种六碳分子，一种复杂的化学物质，六碳化学物质，再次经过化学修饰，变成丙酮酸盐，正如我提到的，在某种程度上，这是一个支点——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
...
...
in the metabolism of that glucose.
在葡萄糖的代谢中。
And the reason why we became really fascinated with pyruvate is because of that bifurcation that happens.
我们之所以对丙酮酸如此着迷，是因为这种分歧的发生。
Pyruvate can either be, again, taken into mitochondria and burned, and that's very effective for generating ATP, for extracting all the energy that can be extracted.
丙酮酸可以再次被摄入线粒体并燃烧，这对于生成 ATP 以及提取所有可提取的能量非常有效。
And that's what cardiomyocytes, for example, really love to do.
例如，这就是心肌细胞真正喜欢做的事情。
Take that, everything they can from the circulation, burn it, make ATP, keep our heart pumping.
采取这一点，他们可以从循环中得到一切，燃烧它，制造 ATP，保持我们的心脏跳动。
And again, other cells, on the other hand, don't do that.
另一方面，其他细胞则不会这样做。
They don't need as much ATP.
他们不需要那么多的 ATP。
So those intestinal stem cells that I talked about that are the factory, in a way, that's enabling the repopulation of our gut lining every week, they do something different with that pyruvate.
所以我谈到的那些肠道干细胞是工厂，在某种程度上，它使我们的肠道内壁每周都能重新繁殖，它们对丙酮酸做了一些不同的事情。
They, instead of burning it, turn that pyruvate and other molecules, intermediates in glycolysis, into biomass, into the stuff that will enable that one cell to duplicate itself.
他们没有燃烧它，而是将丙酮酸和其他分子（糖酵解的中间体）转化为生物质，转化为使细胞能够自我复制的物质。
And I've become totally fascinated with this bifurcation.
我对这种分歧完全着迷。
Food can either be converted to energy, or it can be converted to biomass.
食物可以转化为能量，也可以转化为生物质。
I think that's maybe a bit overly simplistic, but I think a good baseline way to think about what we get out of the food that we eat.
我认为这可能有点过于简单化，但我认为这是一个很好的基线方法来思考我们从我们吃的食物中得到什么。
Energy or building blocks that can be used to make a new cell, to repair a cell that's been damaged.
可用于制造新细胞、修复受损细胞的能量或构件。
For a B cell, an immune cell, that are the ones that make antibodies- Making a bunch of antibodies, which an activated B cell needs to do, that's a lot of stuff that needs to be made.
对于 B 细胞、免疫细胞来说，它们是产生抗体的细胞——产生一堆抗体，这是激活的 B 细胞需要做的，需要制造很多东西。
That requires that B cell to have a lot of amino acids that can be turned into proteins, which are antibodies are proteins, and that, again, that's a very important part of our immune system that keeps us protected from invaders that might otherwise kill us.
这要求 B 细胞具有大量可以转化为蛋白质的氨基酸，而抗体就是蛋白质，这又是我们免疫系统的一个非常重要的部分，可以保护我们免受入侵者的侵害，否则这些入侵者可能会杀死我们。
And so that distinction that lands at the point of pyruvate-
因此，这种区别就落在了丙酮酸的点上——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
...
...
I think is a super fascinating pivot point in metabolism that I think many of us are fascinated by exactly how the cell organizes itself to make the right resource allocation decisions.
我认为这是新陈代谢中一个超级迷人的枢轴点，我认为我们很多人都对细胞如何组织自身以做出正确的资源分配决策着迷。
Every one of our cells, every second of every day, is making resource allocation decisions.
我们的每一个细胞、每一天的每一秒都在做出资源分配决策。
What does it do with the stuff that it has?
它对它所拥有的东西有什么作用？
And this is one that I think is really fascinating.
我认为这是非常令人着迷的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So we are probably seven, I'm insulting the cell biologists, but probably seven steps away from sandwich.
所以我们可能有七个人，我在侮辱细胞生物学家，但距离三明治可能还有七步之遥。
So sandwich goes in the mouth, into the gut, gets absorbed, right?
所以三明治进入嘴里，进入肠道，被吸收，对吗？
Correct, we get glucose.
正确，我们得到葡萄糖。
Glucose gets into the cell.
葡萄糖进入细胞。
We got some important biochemistry that is in this, ATP generation pathway, and we get to this key node that you're describing as pyruvate.
我们在这个 ATP 生成途径中得到了一些重要的生物化学信息，并且我们到达了您所描述的丙酮酸这个关键节点。
And pyruvate is either going to say, "Let's make more," you called it biomass, but stuff of cells.
丙酮酸要么会说，“让我们制造更多，”你称之为生物质，而是细胞的东西。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sort of like you have lumber arriving, might be a decent enough analogy.
有点像你有木材到达，这可能是一个足够恰当的类比。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're either going to use it to build more house, or you're going to burn it for heat energy.
你要么用它建造更多的房子，要么将它燃烧以获取热能。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Great analogy, yeah.
很好的比喻，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And let's add a condition where you need to burn some of that lumber for heat energy to keep the construction project going.
让我们添加一个条件，您需要燃烧一些木材来获取热能，以保持建设项目的顺利进行。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
So we're at this key bifurcation, this key split point.
所以我们正处于这个关键的分叉点，这个关键的分裂点。
Is it just as metabolically demanding for a cell to use pyruvate to keep itself going, like a cardiomyocyte versus making biomass, or is one more costly?
对于细胞来说，使用丙酮酸来维持自身运转是否需要像心肌细胞与制造生物质一样的代谢要求，还是成本更高？
I'm thinking, again, as you beautifully pointed out at the beginning, about thinking about that our metabolism as a whole body, as a person, is the sum total of all these things.
我再次想到，正如您在开始时精美地指出的那样，我们作为一个整体的新陈代谢，作为一个人，是所有这些事物的总和。
Is it equivalent in terms of how much sandwich, relatively speaking, is going into maintaining us-
相对而言，它相当于多少三明治用于维持我们-
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and rebuilding us-
并重建我们——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
what you call biomass-
你所说的生物质-
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
what I'm calling allocating lumber for the house itself versus to fuel the fire, so to speak.
可以这么说，我所说的是为房子本身分配木材而不是火上浇油。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
That's hard math to do.
这是很难做的数学题。
There's a lot of nuance in that.
其中有很多细微差别。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Rough percentages.
粗略的百分比。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I won't hold you to it.
我不会让你坚持下去。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah, no, one way to think about that, many of us are probably unfortunately aware of PET imaging, right?
是的，不，从某种程度上来说，不幸的是我们中的许多人可能都知道 PET 成像，对吗？
This is something that happens.
这是发生的事情。
It's often used to diagnose cancer.
它通常用于诊断癌症。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Positron emission tomography.
正电子发射断层扫描。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Positron emission tomography.
正电子发射断层扫描。
An FDG-PET, which is the most common form of PET, is basically you're giving cells a form of glucose that can then be visualized with this PET scan that many people are aware of.
FDG-PET 是 PET 的最常见形式，基本上是为细胞提供一种葡萄糖，然后可以通过许多人都知道的 PET 扫描进行可视化。
And the reason we do that is because tumors take up a lot of glucose.
我们这样做的原因是因为肿瘤会吸收大量的葡萄糖。
An FDG-PET is fluorodeoxyglucose.
FDG-PET 是氟脱氧葡萄糖。
This is a labeled version of glucose.
这是葡萄糖的标记版本。
So the reason we do FDG-PET is to see the cells, where in the body is taking up a lot of glucose.
因此，我们进行 FDG-PET 的原因是为了观察体内吸收大量葡萄糖的细胞。
And tumors take up a lot of glucose.
肿瘤会吸收大量的葡萄糖。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
So FDG-PET is used to diagnose cancer frequently, very effectively.
因此 FDG-PET 经常被用来诊断癌症，而且非常有效。
So that is one metric for this.
这是衡量这一点的一个指标。
A cancer cell is, again, a cell that is making a resource allocation decision all the time, but in the context of that cell, when it transforms into a cancer cell, that resource allocation becomes very much about building more cells.
癌细胞是一个一直在做出资源分配决定的细胞，但在该细胞的背景下，当它转变为癌细胞时，资源分配就变得非常重要的是建立更多的细胞。
That's why a tumor is a tumor, is because that one cell that was the first bad actor decided instead of doing the thing it was supposed to be doing, decided to duplicate itself and duplicate itself again and build a cluster of cells that then become a tumor.
这就是为什么肿瘤之所以是肿瘤，是因为作为第一个坏演员的一个细胞决定不做它应该做的事情，而是决定复制自己并再次复制自己，并建立一群细胞，然后成为肿瘤。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
I have a pseudophilosophical question-
我有一个伪哲学问题——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but it's really a scientific medical question about tumors.
但这确实是一个关于肿瘤的科学医学问题。
Bacteria have the opportunity to hijack genomes of cells.
细菌有机会劫持细胞的基因组。
Viruses certainly.
肯定是病毒。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And probably the easiest example for people to understand is a herpes virus, like HSV-1 or something-
也许人们最容易理解的例子就是疱疹病毒，比如 HSV-1 之类的——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which lives on neurons, doesn't kill the neuron, which is convenient for the virus.
它以神经元为生，不会杀死神经元，这对病毒来说很方便。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Because if it killed the neuron, it too would die.
因为如果它杀死了神经元，它也会死亡。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because if the neuron is expressing that virus-
因为如果神经元表达该病毒-
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's hijacked the genome.
它劫持了基因组。
So earlier I was saying viruses have their own, quote unquote, "intelligence."
所以之前我说过病毒有自己的“智能”。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like stay alive, but keep the host alive too, and transmit.
就像保持活着一样，但也让主机保持活着，然后进行传输。
And in the case of rabies, it's the most easiest one to conceptualize.
就狂犬病而言，它是最容易概念化的一种。
Impact areas of the brain that trigger aggression would then trigger-
触发攻击性的大脑区域会触发——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
biting.
咬。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And people have speculated, does the virus know that it's doing this?
人们猜测，病毒知道它在这样做吗？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Probably not, right?
可能不会，对吧？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're not brains.
他们不是大脑。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But pretty impressive level of, quote unquote, "adaptive behavior and intelligence."
但“适应性行为和智力”的水平相当令人印象深刻。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think of cancer as just a bad thing all around, right?
我认为癌症只是一件坏事，对吗？
That these cells are greedy, they're taking glucose, they're making more of themselves.
这些细胞很贪婪，它们正在摄取葡萄糖，它们正在制造更多的自身。
It's cell turnover gone awry.
这是细胞更新出了问题。
Tumor gets big, it starts to encroach on other tissues, metastasize, boom, you kill the host.
肿瘤变大，它开始侵犯其他组织，转移，轰隆隆，你杀死了宿主。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's not a great strategy from the perspective-
从这个角度来看，这不是一个很好的策略——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of the tumor.
肿瘤的。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it obviously isn't thinking about its long-term-
所以它显然没有考虑其长期-
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
outcome in any kind of adaptive way.
以任何一种适应性方式产生的结果。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But has anyone ever looked at tumors in the same way that we think about viruses?
但有人像我们看待病毒一样看待肿瘤吗？
The logic there is the same.
那里的逻辑是一样的。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Except it seems that their goal is to kill the organism.
但他们的目标似乎是杀死这个生物体。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not trying to anthropomorphize about cells and cellular processes, but I think, is there a potential set of answers about how to deal with tumors and think about cancer that could be borrowed from any of those other examples?
我并不是想将细胞和细胞过程拟人化，但我认为，是否存在可以从其他例子中借鉴的关于如何处理肿瘤和思考癌症的一组潜在答案？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or am I going down the wrong path here?
或者我在这里走错了路？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah, it's an interesting question.
是的，这是一个有趣的问题。
Viruses and bacteria, similar to how you were describing viruses, some of the same principles apply to bacteria, in parasitic bacteria.
病毒和细菌，与您描述病毒的方式类似，一些相同的原理也适用于细菌和寄生细菌。
Viruses, as you allude to, their goal, if you do want to anthropomorphize them, their goal ...
正如你所提到的，病毒是它们的目标，如果你确实想将它们拟人化，那么它们的目标......
is to propagate.
是为了传播。
They are under evolutionary pressure.
他们面临着进化的压力。
The way that that virus survives is to make more of itself, go infect another organism, and have that other organism make a bunch of additional viruses that'll then go and infect another organism.
该病毒生存的方式是制造更多的自身，感染另一个生物体，并让另一个生物体制造一堆额外的病毒，然后再感染另一个生物体。
That is the evolutionary game, and that's what viruses do, and they're very good at it.
这就是进化游戏，这就是病毒所做的，而且它们非常擅长。
And you described some really interesting biology where viruses will actually affect the behavior of the host to make them better at getting into the next host.
你描述了一些非常有趣的生物学，其中病毒实际上会影响宿主的行为，使它们更好地进入下一个宿主。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's so wild.
太狂野了。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
It's amazing.
太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I wish we had a better language for this.
我希望我们有更好的语言来解决这个问题。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because intelligence is not really it-
因为智力并不是真正的东西——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
It's not
这不是
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because it's not of brains.
因为它不是大脑的。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it's this adaptive logic.
但这就是这种适应性逻辑。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
That's a good phrase for it, adaptive logic, that enables the survival and propagation of that virus.
这是一个很好的短语，适应性逻辑，它使病毒能够生存和传播。
And this is how evolution works, of course.
当然，这就是进化的原理。
If that virus had a mutation that made it better able to do that, that virus then would infect better, and it would get into hosts better, propagate better, and it would eventually take over the population of that virus.
如果该病毒具有使其能够更好地做到这一点的突变，那么该病毒就会更好地感染，并且它会更好地进入宿主，更好地传播，并且最终会接管该病毒的种群。
That is the process of evolution, and I think, again, it makes intuitive sense.
这就是进化的过程，我认为这再次具有直观意义。
You asked about cancer.
你问的是癌症。
Cancer is obviously fundamentally different in one key way.
癌症显然在一个关键方面有着根本的不同。
If I get a virus, and I come in here, and we're sitting across the table, and I'm hacking and whatever, and I spew across the table at you, you might get the virus-
如果我感染了病毒，我来到这里，我们坐在桌子对面，我正在黑客攻击什么的，然后我向你吐口水，你可能会感染病毒-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
...
...
get sick, build a bunch of additional virus, and then you give it to coworkers.
生病了，产生一堆额外的病毒，然后把它传染给同事。
And that's viral propagation, which we all sadly know about.
这就是病毒传播，我们都遗憾地知道这一点。
There's very little evidence that cancer is infectious from person to person.
几乎没有证据表明癌症在人与人之间具有传染性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What about the Tasmanian devils?
那么塔斯马尼亚恶魔呢？
You know about this, right?
你知道这件事，对吧？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
No, I don't know about this.
不，我不知道这件事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
I don't know if this held up, but there was this idea for a while, someone will tell us in the comments-
我不知道这是否成立，但是这个想法已经有一段时间了，有人会在评论中告诉我们——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
this is what's fun about doing this on the internet, that Tasmanian devils fight and that there's wound-induced propagation of cancers.
这就是在互联网上做这件事的有趣之处，塔斯马尼亚恶魔之间的战斗以及伤口引起的癌症传播。
These very disturbing, as an animal lover-
作为一个动物爱好者，这些非常令人不安——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
very disturbing images of these cute little animals with the little teeth there.
这些可爱的小动物的图像非常令人不安，那里有小牙齿。
They have a viciousness to them.
他们对他们有一种恶毒。
And they have these tumors growing at wound sites, and it turns out those are cancers.
他们的伤口处长有这些肿瘤，结果证明这些是癌症。
So there's somehow-
所以有某种方式-
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
fighting and wounds and it might be viral, it might be bacterial.
打斗和伤口，可能是病毒性的，也可能是细菌性的。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's outside my expertise.
这超出了我的专业范围。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But there was this idea that they could transmit cancers to one another through fighting.
但有一种想法认为，他们可以通过战斗将癌症传播给彼此。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Interesting.
有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which I thought was sad, but fascinating nonetheless.
我认为这很悲伤，但仍然很有趣。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And Australia's a weird place.
澳大利亚是一个奇怪的地方。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
A lot of stuff happens there.
那里发生了很多事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Love it down there.
喜欢那里。
The world's upside down down there, so after all.
毕竟，世界是颠倒的。
But right, you're right.
但对，你是对的。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
In general.
一般来说。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, we don't actually think that people are catching cancers from one another.
是的，我们实际上并不认为人们会互相传染癌症。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
So when you think about the evolution of a cancer, the scope of that evolution is different.
因此，当你考虑癌症的进化时，进化的范围是不同的。
The scope of that evolution of a cell in me-
我体内细胞进化的范围——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
...
...
is limited to me.
仅限于我。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Cancer cells undergo evolution in the exact same way.
癌细胞以完全相同的方式经历进化。
If one cell in my body starts propagating, it acquires a mutation that enables it to divide and divide faster and maybe get out from underneath the limits that are being placed upon it by the immune system and by other systems that control propagation of cells in the body.
如果我体内的一个细胞开始繁殖，它就会获得一种突变，使其能够分裂和分裂得更快，并可能摆脱免疫系统和其他控制体内细胞繁殖的系统对其施加的限制。
It can then divide and divide again, and that's basically the continuous process of cancer development, is the acquisition of mutations that make that cell better able to evade the immune system, to duplicate itself, evade the problems that would come with DNA damage, which many cancers have, and to continue to make cells that survive.
然后它可以分裂再分裂，这基本上是癌症发展的连续过程，是获得突变，使细胞能够更好地逃避免疫系统，自我复制，逃避许多癌症所具有的DNA损伤所带来的问题，并继续使细胞存活下来。
And that is, in a way, an evolutionary process playing out at the level of individual cells.
从某种程度上来说，这是一个在单个细胞水平上进行的进化过程。
But how that interacts with the host is obviously different because, again, a virus has this sort of evolutionary drive to get from one organism to another to another to enable its propagation.
但它与宿主的相互作用方式明显不同，因为病毒具有这种进化动力，从一种生物体到另一种生物体，再到另一种生物体，以实现其传播。
Cancer isn't fueled by the same motivations, let's say, because, again, as far as we're aware, that very rarely, if almost never, happens to get from one organism to another.
可以说，癌症并不是由相同的动机推动的，因为据我们所知，癌症从一种生物体转移到另一种生物体的情况很少，甚至几乎没有。
And so the motivations are different, but the evolutionary process underlying it, it's the same principles at play in both.
因此，动机是不同的，但其背后的进化过程，两者的原理是相同的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。
AG1 just launched their newest formulation called AG1 Pro, and right now you can get an extra 20% off your first subscription.
AG1 刚刚推出了名为 AG1 Pro 的最新配方，现在您首次订阅可享受 20% 的额外折扣。
AG1 takes the clinically backed AG1 formula, which is a blend of vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and adaptogens, and adds three important new ingredients, creatine monohydrate, calcium HMB, and zinc carnosine.
AG1 采用经过临床支持的 AG1 配方，该配方混合了维生素、矿物质、益生菌和适应原，并添加了三种重要的新成分：一水肌酸、HMB 钙和肌肽锌。
It has five grams of creatine monohydrate to support muscle strength and performance, along with brain health.
它含有 5 克一水肌酸，可支持肌肉力量和性能以及大脑健康。
Calcium HMB to support muscle recovery and reduce muscle breakdown, and zinc carnosine to support and improve the lining of your gut.
HMB 钙可支持肌肉恢复并减少肌肉分解，肌肽锌可支持和改善肠道内壁。
Some of these ingredients I personally was already taking separate from the AG1 formula, so it's great to see all three of them now in the new AG1 Pro.
其中一些成分我个人已经从 AG1 配方中分离出来，所以很高兴看到这三种成分现在都出现在新的 AG1 Pro 中。
As you may know, I've been taking AG1 every single day for about 14 years now.
如您所知，我每天服用 AG1 已有大约 14 年了。
That means I discovered it and started taking it daily long before I even knew what a podcast was.
这意味着我早在知道播客是什么之前就发现了它并开始每天服用它。
I continue to take it and back it here on the podcast because it is an excellent formula, and it's now even better with the AG1 Pro formula.
我继续在播客上使用它并返回它，因为它是一个出色的公式，而且现在使用 AG1 Pro 公式甚至更好。
For a limited time, you can get an extra 20% off your first subscription to AG1 Pro by going to drinkag1.com/huberman and using the code Back2Routine.
在有限的时间内，您可以通过访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 并使用代码 Back2Routine 获得首次订阅 AG1 Pro 的额外 20% 折扣。
So that's with the numeral two, Back2Routine.
这就是数字二，Back2Routine。
Just go to drinkag1.com/huberman.
只需访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Eight Sleep.
今天的节目也是八觉给我们带来的。
Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity.
August Sleep 生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。
One of the best ways to ensure you get a great night's sleep is to make sure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct.
确保您睡个好觉的最佳方法之一是确保睡眠环境的温度正确。
And that's because in order to fall asleep and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees.
这是因为为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的体温实际上必须下降约一到三度。
And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees.
为了醒来时感觉神清气爽、精力充沛，您的体温实际上必须升高约一到三度。
Eight Sleep automatically regulates the temperature of your bed throughout the night according to your unique needs.
八睡眠会根据您的独特需求自动调节整个晚上的床温。
I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for nearly five years now, and it has completely transformed and improved the quality of my sleep.
我已经睡在八睡眠床垫罩上近五年了，它彻底改变并改善了我的睡眠质量。
The latest Eight Sleep model is the Pod 5.
最新的八睡眠型号是 Pod 5。
This is what I'm now sleeping on, and I absolutely love it.
这就是我现在睡觉的地方，我非常喜欢它。
It has so many incredible features.
它有很多令人难以置信的功能。
For instance, the Pod 5 has a feature called Autopilot, which is an AI engine that learns your sleep patterns and then adjusts the temperature of your sleeping environment across different sleep stages.
例如，Pod 5有一个名为Autopilot的功能，这是一个人工智能引擎，可以学习你的睡眠模式，然后在不同的睡眠阶段调整你的睡眠环境温度。
It'll even elevate your head if you're snoring, and it makes other shifts to optimize your sleep.
如果您打鼾，它甚至会抬高您的头部，并进行其他转换以优化您的睡眠。
If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, go to eightsleep.com/huberman to get up to $350 off the new Pod 5.
如果您想尝试八睡眠，请访问八睡眠.com/huberman，新款 Pod 5 最高可享受 350 美元优惠。
Eight Sleep ships to many countries worldwide, including Mexico and the UAE.
八号睡眠船运往世界各地的许多国家，包括墨西哥和阿联酋。
Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $350.
同样，访问八睡眠.com/huberman 最多可节省 350 美元。
I'll take us down one more estuary, then we are actually going to talk about mitochondria and pyruvate again, and your contributions to this critical node of where pyruvate puts its efforts, building more stuff of the cell or using energy.
我将带我们再下一个河口，然后我们实际上将再次讨论线粒体和丙酮酸，以及您对丙酮酸发挥作用的关键节点的贡献，构建更多的细胞物质或使用能量。
Anytime I have a serious cell biologist, which isn't that often on this podcast, or somebody who thinks about the pieces that make up us, I try and ask this.
每当我有一位严肃的细胞生物学家（这在这个播客中并不常见），或者有人思考构成我们的各个部分时，我都会尝试问这个问题。
I'm bothered by this one thing I heard once, which is that it's so easy to think about evolution as okay, we're all adaptively trying to make more of ourselves, care for our young, and go forward.
我曾经听到的一件事让我感到困扰，那就是人们很容易认为进化论是好的，我们都在适应性地努力让自己变得更好，照顾我们的年轻人，并继续前进。
That's what most every-
这就是大多数——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
mammalian species does.
哺乳动物物种确实如此。
That all makes sense until I learned about the gut microbiome from my colleague Justin Sonnenburg, and he said, "Every time you shake hands, we exchange a microbiome today."
这一切都是有道理的，直到我从同事贾斯汀·索南伯格那里了解到肠道微生物组，他说：“每次你们握手时，我们今天都会交换一个微生物组。”
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we're sharing in the air, on skin, we shook hands, you see.
我们在空气中、在皮肤上分享，我们握手，你看。
And there is this one model of all of this that's very purely biological, that we are just shuttles for the microbiota.
所有这一切都有一个非常纯粹的生物学模型，即我们只是微生物群的穿梭机。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And everything that we're doing, like building electric cars and holding debates and protests and sending kids to school and all of that, we think is about us.
我们所做的一切，比如制造电动汽车、举行辩论和抗议、送孩子上学等等，我们认为都是关于我们自己的。
But the microbiota are just like they've hijacked this process, and they're not sitting there going, "Ha, we're stealing." They think this is all about them, and we're just trying to spread and make sure that we continue, and maybe long after they're gone, we're just going to keep going.
但微生物群就像他们劫持了这个过程一样，他们不会坐在那里说：“哈，我们在偷东西。”他们认为这就是他们的全部，而我们只是试图传播并确保我们继续下去，也许在他们离开很久之后，我们才会继续前进。
And I can't poke any holes in this.
我无法在这件事上找出任何漏洞。
It's too good a theory.
这理论太好了。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I keep hoping somebody's going to tell me, at least from a purely biological perspective, that that's not true.
但我一直希望有人能告诉我，至少从纯粹的生物学角度来看，这不是真的。
But it kind of scares me.
但这有点让我害怕。
Every once in a while, I think maybe I'm just a bunch of microbiota.
每隔一段时间，我就会想，也许我只是一群微生物群。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
You're just the vehicle.
你只是一个交通工具。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We're just a shuttle, but we got this brain-
我们只是一艘航天飞机，但我们有这个大脑-
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which is very convenient for them, right?
这对他们来说很方便，对吗？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because it makes me want to go out and do things, and I think about failures and successes and how I want to do better and what I want to do at different stages.
因为它让我想要出去做事，我会思考失败和成功，以及我想如何做得更好以及在不同阶段我想做什么。
And maybe it's just all about them getting as far and wide as they can.
也许这只是他们尽可能走得更远、更广泛。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Well, unfortunately, Andrew, I'm not sure I'm going to be able to provide you the concrete proof that that's not true.
嗯，不幸的是，安德鲁，我不确定我是否能够向你提供具体的证据来证明这不是真的。
It's a fascinating hypothesis.
这是一个有趣的假设。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And kind of eerie, right?
有点怪异，对吧？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah, very eerie.
是啊，非常诡异。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
We definitely don't like to think of ourselves as anything other than the pinnacle of evolution and the reason for everything.
我们绝对不喜欢将自己视为进化的顶峰和一切事物的原因之外的任何东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
But there's no question, to your point, the microbiome, or the bacteria that live in our gut and on our skin, they're being driven by the same evolutionary pressures that we've been talking about for viruses and for us.
但毫无疑问，就你的观点而言，微生物组或生活在我们肠道和皮肤上的细菌，它们受到我们一直在谈论的病毒和我们相同的进化压力的驱动。
They're trying to propagate themselves and fill the niche that they live in, fill the little chunk of the universe that they live in, and do it better than their competing neighbors.
他们试图传播自己，填补他们所生活的利基市场，填补他们所生活的宇宙的一小部分，并且比他们的竞争邻居做得更好。
And if they can do that, then their genome is going to get passed on, and again and again.
如果他们能做到这一点，那么他们的基因组就会一次又一次地传承下去。
And it's fascinating to think about the role that we play for them and they play for us.
想想我们为他们扮演的角色以及他们为我们扮演的角色是很有趣的。
This is a phenomenon that's been known for a long time, but I think the implications of the microbiome is something that really has only been, I think, experimentally dealt with in a really serious way in the recent decade or so.
这是一个早已为人所知的现象，但我认为微生物组的影响实际上只是在最近十年左右的时间里才以非常严肃的方式进行了实验处理。
And I think we're still learning about the implications, but there's no question that they're big.
我认为我们仍在了解其影响，但毫无疑问它们的影响很大。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Tell us about MPC one and two.
请告诉我们有关 MPC 1 和 2 的信息。
I'm asking about biochemical steps in a key process of energy production and allocation, and normally when people hear acronyms, they don't understand.
我问的是能源生产和分配的关键过程中的生化步骤，通常当人们听到缩写词时，他们不明白。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They go, "Oh my goodness.
他们说：“天哪。
What are we doing here?" But I think it's so important that people understand this business of us, of this metabolism, having energy, whether we're young or old, have a lot of it or less of it, healthy or dealing with cancer, this is a key node.
我们在这里做什么？”但我认为，让人们了解我们的新陈代谢、拥有能量，无论我们年轻还是年老，能量多还是少，健康还是正在治疗癌症，这是非常重要的，这是一个关键节点。
And what I want to know, truly, is how do you actually discover something like this?
我真正想知道的是，你是如何发现这样的东西的？
And this is where I think we can really illustrate the scientific process in a way that most people just don't understand.
我认为这就是我们可以以大多数人不理解的方式真正说明科学过程的地方。
So you need cells, first of all.
所以首先你需要细胞。
You need to be able to find the mitochondria.
您需要能够找到线粒体。
You need to be able to know what's ATP and what's pyruvate.
您需要能够知道什么是 ATP、什么是丙酮酸。
And then you know they're going to two different pathways because someone else said that, and you can observe it down a microscope.
然后你知道他们会走两条不同的路，因为其他人这么说过，你可以在显微镜下观察它。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But then how do you find this thing-
但是你怎么找到这个东西-
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and then tell us what it's doing, perhaps.
然后告诉我们它在做什么，也许。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or tell us what it's doing.
或者告诉我们它在做什么。
But I think it would be very useful for people to get a picture of how this is done.
但我认为这对于人们了解这是如何完成的非常有用。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because we hear this stuff like, "Oh, this molecule, MPC." And people go, "Oh, is there a peptide for that?"
因为我们听到这样的话，“哦，这个分子，MPC。”人们会问，“哦，有肽吗？”
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's like, hold off.
就好像，等一下。
Let's think about how we come to understand these essential aspects of ourself, I think would be so useful.
让我们想想我们如何理解自己的这些基本方面，我认为会非常有用。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
I appreciate you asking about that.
我很感激你问这个问题。
It allows me to reminisce a little bit about the process of discovering that, which was a fun time in my career and was fueled by the brilliant people in the lab that did it.
它让我能够回忆起发现这一点的过程，这是我职业生涯中一段有趣的时光，并且受到实验室里杰出人才的推动。
So MPC, this is a case where the acronym actually makes sense.
所以 MPC，在这种情况下，缩写词实际上是有意义的。
It's the mitochondrial pyruvate carrier.
它是线粒体丙酮酸载体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, thank you.
哦，谢谢。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
So you don't have to be a scientist.
所以你不必成为一名科学家。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Did you name it?
你命名了吗？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
We did not name it.
我们没有说出它的名字。
It was named before.
之前就已经命名了。
I'll tell you that when I tell you about the story.
当我告诉你这个故事时我会告诉你这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you to whoever named it, because I don't like acronyms that aren't informative.
感谢给它命名的人，因为我不喜欢没有信息的首字母缩略词。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
MPC, aptly named-
MPC，恰当地命名为——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yep
是的
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
...
...
is the carrier that enables pyruvate to get into the mitochondria.
是使丙酮酸进入线粒体的载体。
Mitochondrial pyruvate carrier.
线粒体丙酮酸载体。
That's what it does.
这就是它的作用。
Sits in the mitochondria and basically provides a very specific hole in the membrane to enable pyruvate to get in so that it can then be burned by the mitochondria to, again, extract all the energy to make ATP.
位于线粒体中，基本上在膜上提供了一个非常特殊的孔，使丙酮酸能够进入，然后它可以被线粒体燃烧，再次提取所有能量来制造 ATP。
That's basically what it does.
这基本上就是它的作用。
The history of this is really interesting.
这件事的历史真的很有趣。
It's been known for 60 or 70 years that mitochondria must have a carrier to enable pyruvate to get in, but it was not identified what that protein was, how it worked.
60 或 70 年前人们就知道线粒体必须有一个载体才能使丙酮酸进入，但人们并不清楚这种蛋白质是什么以及它如何发挥作用。
And fast-forward to 2008 or 2009 or so, and our laboratory had just recently become, again, fascinated with mitochondria.
快进到 2008 年或 2009 年左右，我们的实验室最近才再次对线粒体着迷。
I would say the motivating piece of information that convinced us to start working on mitochondria was the realization that many of the proteins that make up mitochondria, that do the stuff that mitochondria do, we don't know what their functions are.
我想说，说服我们开始研究线粒体的激励信息是我们认识到，许多构成线粒体的蛋白质，它们做线粒体所做的事情，我们不知道它们的功能是什么。
And that suggested that this organelle powerhouse of the cell I at least felt like we knew a lot about what mitochondria do.
这表明我至少觉得我们对细胞器的动力源了解很多线粒体的作用。
There's mysteries there that we don't have answers for.
那里有一些我们没有答案的谜团。
And so we started just taking some of these proteins that we know are in mitochondria, we don't know what they do, and trying to figure out what they do.
因此，我们开始只提取一些已知存在于线粒体中的蛋白质，但我们不知道它们的作用，并试图弄清楚它们的作用。
And two of those turned out to be MPC1 and MPC2.
其中两个是 MPC1 和 MPC2。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Way back when, I observed and was taught, I didn't do a ton of this, that if you want to figure out what proteins are in a cell, you get a bunch of those cells, which you can do.
很久以前，我观察到并被教导，我并没有做很多这样的事情，如果你想弄清楚细胞中的蛋白质是什么，你可以得到一堆这些细胞，你可以做到。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then you grind them up, and then you run them through a bunch of columns, like literally tubes.
然后你把它们磨碎，然后让它们穿过一堆柱子，就像字面上的管子一样。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And those tubes have filters that either let big, less big, small, or very small things through in what we call fractionation, right?
这些管子有过滤器，可以让大的、不太大的、小的或非常小的东西通过，我们称之为分馏，对吗？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then you test the different stuff that comes through for its ability to do something-
然后你测试不同的东西，看看它做某事的能力-
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in some sort of cellular app.
在某种蜂窝应用程序中。
It's like how did you actually find MPC2?
就像你是如何找到 MPC2 的？
Was it done by-
是不是由——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
sort of what we call hardcore biochemical purification?
有点像我们所说的核心生化纯化？
That was kind of the old way of doing it.
这是一种古老的做法。
Or, well, let me ask this.
或者，好吧，让我问这个。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do we know the total number of proteins in a given human heart cell?
我们知道特定人类心脏细胞中的蛋白质总数吗？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
I think we know, yeah.
我想我们知道，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We know everything that's in a heart cell.
我们知道心脏细胞中的一切。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
I think we know all the proteins in a heart cell.
我认为我们知道心脏细胞中的所有蛋白质。
Again, you can get into the nuances-
再说一次，你可以进入细微差别——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay
好的
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
...
...
of slightly modified versions.
略有修改的版本。
But we know the proteins because they are encoded by our genome, right?
但我们知道这些蛋白质是因为它们是由我们的基因组编码的，对吗？
We know the human genome.
我们知道人类基因组。
That's been sequenced.
已经排序了。
We know what that is.
我们知道那是什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But we don't know everything that's expressed in a given cell.
但我们并不知道给定细胞中表达的所有内容。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
That's right.
没错。
That's true.
这是真的。
And there are some very interesting features there.
那里有一些非常有趣的功能。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sorry, I'm interrupting on purpose.
抱歉，我是故意打扰的。
20 years ago, could you say what you just said?
20年前，你能说出你刚才说的话吗？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
With much less confidence than I can now.
我的信心比现在少得多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We'd say heart cell-
我们会说心脏细胞-
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but we don't actually know all the bits in it.
但我们实际上并不知道其中的所有内容。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But now we do.
但现在我们做到了。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Now I think we know essentially everything.
现在我认为我们基本上知道一切。
Again, there's going to be subtle nuances that we don't know, but I think we know almost everything.
同样，会有一些我们不知道的细微差别，但我认为我们几乎知道一切。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's good.
那很好。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Doesn't mean we know what all those things do.
并不意味着我们知道所有这些东西的作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
And that's maybe the frontier for the biochemistry frontier for the next generation of scientists to figure out.
这可能是下一代科学家需要弄清楚的生物化学前沿。
We don't know what they all do, but we know more or less what they all are.
我们不知道他们都做什么，但我们或多或少知道他们都是什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Knowing what they are, but not knowing what they do, motivated us to go take these two proteins that were in the mitochondria.
知道它们是什么，但不知道它们的作用，促使我们去获取线粒体中的这两种蛋白质。
We could make a very strong hypothesis that they were important because they were in every cell that has mitochondria, down to a yeast that's a single-celled organism, and plants and animals.
我们可以做出一个非常有力的假设，即它们很重要，因为它们存在于每个有线粒体的细胞中，小至单细胞生物酵母，以及植物和动物中。
Everything that has a mitochondria has these two MPC1 and MPC2 proteins.
所有有线粒体的东西都含有这两种 MPC1 和 MPC2 蛋白。
And it would probably take too long to explain on this podcast, the processes that we went through to try to identify the function of this MPC1 and 2.
在这个播客中解释我们尝试识别 MPC1 和 2 的功能所经历的过程可能会花费太长的时间。
But this was a brilliant collaboration, and I think one of the highlights of my career.
但这是一次出色的合作，我认为这是我职业生涯的亮点之一。
Different people in my lab and in the lab of my colleague, Carl Thummel, that worked together.
我的实验室和我的同事 Carl Thummel 的实验室里有不同的人一起工作。
Carl was a fly geneticist, or is a fly geneticist, that used his unique skills and resources, and we were using yeast as a model system as well as human cells.
卡尔是一名果蝇遗传学家，或者说是一名果蝇遗传学家，他利用了他独特的技能和资源，我们使用酵母和人类细胞作为模型系统。
And triangulating all that data, we came up with data that suggested that this might be the mitochondrial pyruvate carrier.
对所有这些数据进行三角测量，我们得出的数据表明这可能是线粒体丙酮酸载体。
These two unknown proteins that happened to be sitting in the mitochondria, and that was now been validated many times over, that these are the proteins that do this transport of pyruvate into the mitochondria.
这两种未知的蛋白质恰好位于线粒体中，现在已经被多次验证，这些蛋白质是将丙酮酸转运到线粒体中的蛋白质。
It was a really fun time for me as a scientist to see that happen.
作为一名科学家，看到这一切的发生对我来说真是一段有趣的时光。
And you kind of alluded to this when you asked the question, what was maybe even more exciting than the discovery of the mitochondrial pyruvate carrier, which Carl and I did, and we published a paper in the lab of Jean-Claude Martinou in Geneva, published a paper at the same time showing the same discovery.
当你问这个问题时，你提到了这一点，什么可能比发现线粒体丙酮酸载体更令人兴奋，卡尔和我发现了这一点，我们在日内瓦的让-克洛德·马蒂努实验室发表了一篇论文，同时发表了一篇论文展示了同样的发现。
What's been really fun since then is to see the implications of that and starting again to understand what role this protein plays in the allocation of that pyruvate that we've been talking about.
从那时起，真正有趣的是了解其含义，并重新开始了解这种蛋白质在我们一直在谈论的丙酮酸分配中发挥的作用。
Because now the MPC is the first step towards one destination of that pyruvate.
因为现在 MPC 是通往丙酮酸目的地的第一步。
So it kind of pulls it into the mitochondria, so to speak.
可以这么说，它有点将其拉入线粒体。
And once that pyruvate is in the mitochondria, it's going to be used for something in the mitochondria instead of maybe being used for something else in the cytosol.
一旦丙酮酸进入线粒体，它将被用于线粒体中的某些东西，而不是用于细胞质中的其他东西。
And so that's been work that we've done a lot of since is, what are the implications of that?
从那以后我们就做了很多工作，这会产生什么影响？
And I think it's been exciting to see in different cell types what that means.
我认为在不同的细胞类型中看到这意味着什么是令人兴奋的。
And so cardiomyocytes, for example, again, these are cells that want to make ATP to allow cardiomyocytes to continue to contract.
例如，心肌细胞需要制造 ATP 以使心肌细胞继续收缩。
They need to extract every bit of energy they can, make as much ATP as they can.
他们需要提取尽可能多的能量，制造尽可能多的 ATP。
They use this MPC extensively.
他们广泛使用这个 MPC。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How do they ensure that these cardiomyocytes make sure that they make just enough to maintain themselves so they're not so busy burning up all the lumber that they end up going, "Oh my goodness," and the house fell apart?
他们如何确保这些心肌细胞确保它们产生的能量足以维持自身的生存，这样它们就不会忙着烧掉所有的木材，以至于最终“哦，我的天哪”，然后房子就倒塌了？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do they consistently devote 90% of their ATP to energy utilization and that they just know 10%?
他们是否始终将 90% 的 ATP 用于能量利用，而他们只知道 10%？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How quantitative are these-
这些是多少——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
pathways?
途径？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
This-
这——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because you can't have the walls fall down.
因为你不能让墙倒塌。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It doesn't matter how much energy you produce, right?
你产生多少能量并不重要，对吗？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
It's a brilliant question, and it's definitely not programmed like there's a spigot with a diverter valve that 90% goes this way and 10% goes that way.
这是一个很棒的问题，而且它的编程绝对不像有一个带有分流阀的龙头，90% 朝这边走，10% 朝那边走。
What actually happens, and this doesn't just happen in cardiomyocytes, it happens in every cell, is that basically the cell is measuring the outputs.
实际发生的情况，这不仅发生在心肌细胞中，而且发生在每个细胞中，基本上细胞正在测量输出。
Again, to anthropomorphize, and I have to say, there are some scientists that hate us when we anthropomorphize cells, but I'm doing it anyways.
再说一次，我不得不说，当我们将细胞拟人化时，有些科学家讨厌我们，但我还是这么做了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm talking about humans having an intelligence-
我说的是人类拥有智慧——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah, exactly
是的，正是如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or an adaptive logic, so it's okay.
或者自适应逻辑，所以没关系。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
I think you've provided cover for me to do it for cells then.
我认为你已经为我提供了对细胞进行此操作的掩护。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Plenty, yeah.
很多，是的。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Cells basically are measuring Their resources all the time.
细胞基本上一直在测量它们的资源。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
I think you could make a compelling argument that every cell, almost all cells, know how much usable energy, ATP, they have all the time.
我认为你可以提出一个令人信服的论点，即每个细胞，几乎所有细胞，都知道它们始终拥有多少可用能量，即 ATP。
And when it gets low, they will initiate a series of reactions to that, responses to that, to bring it back up.
当它变低时，他们会对此发起一系列反应，以使其恢复。
They'll turn off processes that use ATP.
他们将关闭使用 ATP 的进程。
They'll start pulling glucose out of the circulation to make more ATP.
他们将开始将葡萄糖从循环中抽出，以产生更多的 ATP。
There's this really profound response to ATP depletion, and I think that's true for many of the end products of our metabolic map.
ATP 耗尽会产生非常深刻的反应，我认为对于我们代谢图谱的许多最终产物来说都是如此。
Again, these are the products of the metabolic map, are the amino acids that make proteins and the nucleotides that are required to make DNA and RNA, our genome.
同样，这些是代谢图谱的产物，是制造蛋白质的氨基酸和制造 DNA 和 RNA（我们的基因组）所需的核苷酸。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's a greediness to all these cells.
所有这些细胞都有一种贪婪。
If the fat cells are greedy, you could really see a problem.
如果脂肪细胞贪婪，你真的会发现问题。
Like if we're not ingesting enough glucose.
就像我们没有摄入足够的葡萄糖一样。
Let's hold off on ketosis for a second-
让我们暂时搁置酮症——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and alternate-
和交替-
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
metabolic pathways.
代谢途径。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We will touch on it.
我们会谈到它。
But if the fat cells are also very self-serving, then at some point, are they just forced to liberate the stuff?
但如果脂肪细胞也非常自私，那么在某些时候，它们是否只是被迫释放这些东西？
But ultimately, fat cells just want to get bigger and bigger.
但最终，脂肪细胞只想变得越来越大。
But if this cardiomyocyte doesn't have enough glucose, eventually, it could shut down any number of things.
但如果心肌细胞没有足够的葡萄糖，最终它可能会关闭许多东西。
Like you can remodel a house down to-
就像你可以把房子改造成-
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
just the fireplace and a little bit of-
只是壁炉和一点点——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
structure around it.
其周围的结构。
But eventually, you need the resource.
但最终，您需要资源。
So then what happens?
那么接下来会发生什么呢？
The adipocyte liberates the energy.
脂肪细胞释放能量。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And cells, everybody gets a little bit, and you just hang on.
还有细胞，每个人都会得到一点，你就坚持下去。
So it's a famine-
所以这是一场饥荒——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
type situation.
类型情况。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Just as insulin tells the body, "I just ate."
就像胰岛素告诉身体“我刚刚吃过东西”一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
"We're good.
“我们很好。
Take that energy that's available in the form of glucose, squirrel it away, use it," there are hormones that do the opposite.
采取以葡萄糖形式提供的能量，将其储存起来，然后使用它，”有些激素的作用恰恰相反。
Glucagon is one of them, and glucagon, again, has become a little bit more popular recently because it's now being combined in some of the GLP-1-
胰高血糖素就是其中之一，胰高血糖素最近再次变得更受欢迎，因为它现在被结合在一些 GLP-1-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
...
...
more newer GLP-1 drugs.
更多更新的 GLP-1 药物。
Glucagon is called a fasting hormone.
胰高血糖素被称为空腹激素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
So glucagon, in many ways, does the opposite of insulin.
因此，胰高血糖素在很多方面与胰岛素的作用相反。
It will go to the fat cell, bind to the fat cell, tell the fat cell to take the fat that it has squirreled away and release it.
它会到达脂肪细胞，与脂肪细胞结合，告诉脂肪细胞带走它储存的脂肪并将其释放。
And now that can go to other cells in the body, the heart.
现在它可以进入身体的其他细胞，即心脏。
The heart is very good at consuming fatty acids that come from adipose tissue.
心脏非常擅长消耗来自脂肪组织的脂肪酸。
And so-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's good.
那很好。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm actually relieved to hear that.
听到这个我其实很放心。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Because if, God forbid, there's a shortage of food that lasts long enough-
因为如果，上帝保佑，食物短缺会持续足够长的时间——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that's definitely-
那绝对是——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
an organ I don't want shutting down.
一个我不想关闭的器官。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
And most of us have fat in our fat cells, and you could make an argument that the key destination of that fat is the heart, to keep it alive.
我们大多数人的脂肪细胞中都含有脂肪，你可以说脂肪的主要目的地是心脏，以保持其活力。
And in a normal human, I think it's estimated 70% to 80% of the energy extraction that happens in cardiomyocytes, in heart muscle cells, is happening from fat.
对于正常人来说，我认为心肌细胞中发生的能量提取有 70% 到 80% 来自脂肪。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You said under fasted conditions.
你说的是在禁食的情况下。
Is that-
难道是——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Especially under fasted conditions.
尤其是在禁食的情况下。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
But even in fed conditions, fat is available for the heart to use and-
但即使在进食状态下，脂肪也可供心脏使用，并且——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Dietary fat or fat from adipocytes?
膳食脂肪还是脂肪细胞的脂肪？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Both.
两者皆有。
Whatever fat is in the circulation, the cardiomyocyte is pretty good at taking it up and burning it, making ATP from it.
无论循环中含有什么脂肪，心肌细胞都非常擅长吸收并燃烧它，从而产生 ATP。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
The brain likes glucose.
大脑喜欢葡萄糖。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it can use, maybe now we-- I'm not super versed in the ketogenic pathways, but I know that our brain can thrive on ketones.
但它可以使用，也许现在我们——我不太精通生酮途径，但我知道我们的大脑可以在酮的帮助下茁壮成长。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So carbohydrates are not, quote-unquote, "essential."
因此，碳水化合物并不是“必需的”。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All the ketogenic folks love to say that.
所有生酮人士都喜欢这么说。
There's no such thing as an essential carbohydrate.
不存在必需碳水化合物这样的东西。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That doesn't change the fact that the preferred fuel source-
这并没有改变首选燃料来源的事实-
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for most every cell-
对于大多数细胞来说-
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is glucose.
是葡萄糖。
But anyway, that's a separate issue.
但无论如何，这是一个单独的问题。
You don't want the brain to shut down either.
你也不希望大脑停止运转。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So if the form of energy changes, once you get to mitochondria pyruvate, MCP, and downstream, is it all the same?
那么如果能量的形式发生了变化，一旦到达线粒体丙酮酸、MCP以及下游，是不是都是一样的呢？
Is it essentially energy is energy at that point, or are there multiple pathways depending on the fuel source?
那时能量本质上就是能量吗？或者根据燃料来源是否有多种途径？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
The ability of neurons to consume fatty acids is limited.
神经元消耗脂肪酸的能力是有限的。
I think it's traditionally been thought that it's very close to zero.
我认为传统上人们认为它非常接近于零。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
I think that's being questioned now, but it's limited.
我认为现在有人对此提出质疑，但这是有限的。
As you allude to, neurons are particularly fond of consuming glucose and use that glucose to make their ATP.
正如您提到的，神经元特别喜欢消耗葡萄糖并利用葡萄糖来制造 ATP。
And that obviously puts a very stringent demand on the body to always have glucose available.
这显然对身体提出了非常严格的要求，要求身体始终有可用的葡萄糖。
Glucose is one of these things that's fascinating, the systems that we have in our body to maintain glucose.
葡萄糖是令人着迷的东西之一，我们体内维持葡萄糖的系统。
Diabetes is defined as high blood sugar.
糖尿病被定义为高血糖。
That is the definition, the clinical definition of diabetes, when basically our body does not adequately limit the circulating glucose.
这就是糖尿病的定义，临床定义，基本上我们的身体不能充分限制循环葡萄糖。
And that is destructive, damaging, but it's damaging in the course of years, right?
这是破坏性的，破坏性的，但它会随着时间的推移而破坏，对吗？
A person can live with diabetes for years before succumbing to it.
一个人可能会患有糖尿病多年，然后才死于糖尿病。
If glucose is too low, you die within minutes, if not seconds.
如果血糖太低，您会在几分钟甚至几秒钟内死亡。
And that, I think, for a few different reasons, but probably the most important one is the brain requires some amount of glucose to keep it functioning.
我认为，这有几个不同的原因，但可能最重要的一个是大脑需要一定量的葡萄糖来保持其功能。
So, again, I alluded to this before, this very elaborate dance that is happening by these individual cells.
所以，我之前再次提到过，这些个体细胞正在发生这种非常复杂的舞蹈。
Taking up different nutrients out of the circulation, using them for their own unique purposes, and neurons, again, are very adept at taking in glucose and burning it and making ATP from it.
从循环中吸收不同的营养物质，将它们用于自己独特的目的，而神经元同样非常擅长吸收葡萄糖并燃烧它并从中产生 ATP。
I think, again, the heart, I feel like is really fascinating because it'll eat anything.
我再次认为，心脏真的很迷人，因为它会吃任何东西。
It's an omnivore.
它是杂食动物。
Fats, glucose, lactate, ketones, amino acids, it will make ATP out of just about anything that ATP can be made out of.
脂肪、葡萄糖、乳酸、酮、氨基酸，它可以用任何可以制造 ATP 的物质来制造 ATP。
And again, that's important for us to enable us to live no matter whether we just ate or not.
再说一次，这对我们来说很重要，无论我们是否吃饭，它都能让我们生存。
The heart is very good at that.
心脏在这方面非常擅长。
So I think this elaborate dance that we have going on in our body all the time between different cells, cells doing it different way, taking in different fuels and using them for their unique purposes.
所以我认为我们体内不同细胞之间一直在进行这种精心设计的舞蹈，细胞以不同的方式进行，吸收不同的燃料并将它们用于其独特的目的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What is the consequence of eliminating the mCP shuttle?
取消 mCP 穿梭机会产生什么后果？
Like, do you take a mouse...
比如你拿鼠标...
You're at the University of Utah.
你在犹他大学。
Let's give a shout-out to Mario Capecchi-
让我们向马里奥·卡佩奇致敬——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
whose life story is amazing-
他的人生故事令人惊叹——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
who won a Nobel Prize for essentially developing what are called knockout mice-
他因开发出所谓的基因敲除小鼠而获得诺贝尔奖-
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
among other things.
除其他事项外。
You can eliminate genes to test the role of a particular protein downstream of that gene.
您可以消除基因来测试该基因下游特定蛋白质的作用。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you make a mouse that lacks these proteins, do you get a dead mouse?
如果你培育出一只缺乏这些蛋白质的老鼠，你会得到一只死老鼠吗？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So they-
所以他们——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
They do not survive to birth, yeah.
他们无法存活到出生，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can get sperm, egg, and that somehow the-
你可以获得精子、卵子，而且不知何故——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
It will, yeah
会的，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it can become a mouse.
它可以变成一只老鼠。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It'll start to develop, and then I think if I remember right, it's about 12 or 13 days of development, which is two-thirds of the way from fertilization to birth of the mouse.
它会开始发育，然后我想如果我没记错的话，发育大约需要12或13天，这是从受精到小鼠出生的三分之二。
It will die, and you won't get a live mouse.
它会死，你就得不到活老鼠。
But what has been done, and obviously you were probably getting there, is because of the technologies that Mario developed and then others following after him, we can now make mice that lack the MPC only in the liver or only in the heart or only in the muscle or only in the brain, and many of these things have been done.
但我们已经做了什么，显然你可能已经做到了这一点，是因为马里奥开发的技术以及其他追随他的人开发的技术，我们现在可以制造仅在肝脏、仅在心脏、仅在肌肉或仅在大脑中缺乏 MPC 的小鼠，并且其中许多事情已经完成。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sorry, I should've been given credit.
抱歉，我应该得到荣誉。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He developed a technology that would allow for organ and cell type-specific deletions-
他开发了一种技术，可以实现器官和细胞类型特异性的删除——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or additions of genes.
或添加基因。
Forgive me.
对不起。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But you reminded me-
但你提醒了我——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in homage to him, so.
为了向他致敬，所以。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah, and many people have been contributing to that technology and different ways to use it for decades now.
是的，几十年来，许多人一直在为这项技术和使用它的不同方式做出贡献。
And as you might imagine, given the unique demands of different cells, the effects are different.
正如您可能想象的那样，考虑到不同细胞的独特需求，效果是不同的。
The heart is, again, very focused.
心再次非常专注。
Its metabolic program is focused on generating ATP.
其代谢程序的重点是产生 ATP。
So what if we eliminate the MPC in the heart?
那么如果我们消除掉心中的MPC又如何呢？
So we have now made ATP generation from glucose less efficient.
因此，我们现在降低了从葡萄糖生成 ATP 的效率。
We've now cut off the ability to use mitochondria, at least in the conventional way.
我们现在已经切断了使用线粒体的能力，至少以传统方式是这样。
So I actually think the results of that experiment are fascinating, and this is work that has been done by a few different labs.
所以我实际上认为那个实验的结果很有趣，这是由几个不同的实验室完成的工作。
Ahmed Clinton, who's a postdoc now running his own lab at Rutgers, was the one who started this, and other people have contributed.
艾哈迈德·克林顿是一名博士后，现在在罗格斯大学经营着自己的实验室，他是这个项目的发起人，其他人也做出了贡献。
What essentially happens to that heart is that it lives, and the animal lives for weeks after that, but eventually the animals die.
本质上发生在心脏上的事情是它活了，动物在那之后活了几周，但最终动物们死了。
And when you look at what they die of, they have a massive heart.
当你看到他们死于什么时，你会发现他们有一颗巨大的心。
They die of heart failure.
他们死于心力衰竭。
And what has become clear as we've gone and done more sophisticated analyses of this heart and why they die, it's pretty clear that they don't die from an inability to make ATP, because they can burn other things to make ATP.
当我们对这颗心脏进行更复杂的分析以及它们死亡的原因时，我们已经清楚了，很明显它们不会因无法产生 ATP 而死亡，因为它们可以燃烧其他物质来产生 ATP。
We talked about this.
我们讨论过这个。
They can burn fats.
它们可以燃烧脂肪。
They burn fats just fine.
它们燃烧脂肪效果很好。
What they appear to die from, and I would say I'm speculating a bit here, we don't have all the answers to all the questions, is they have made a resource allocation decision that turns out to be pathological for them.
他们似乎死于什么，我想说我在这里推测了一下，我们没有所有问题的全部答案，是他们做出了一个资源分配决定，结果对他们来说是病态的。
And instead of using the glucose that they take in to burn it and make ATP, they start making biomass.
他们不再使用摄入的葡萄糖来燃烧并制造 ATP，而是开始制造生物质。
That again, we talked about that, that bifurcation.
我们再次讨论了那个分歧。
We've eliminated their ability to make ATP from it, at least as effectively, and instead they make biomass.
我们已经消除了他们从中制造 ATP 的能力，至少同样有效，取而代之的是他们制造生物质。
They grow.
他们成长。
And when cardiomyocytes grow, that creates structural problems for the heart.
当心肌细胞生长时，就会给心脏带来结构性问题。
Almost every human that succumbs to heart failure will end up with a big dilated heart that's less effective at pumping, and that's what we see in the mouse.
几乎每个死于心力衰竭的人最终都会出现心脏扩张、泵血效率降低的情况，这就是我们在老鼠身上看到的情况。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
And that maybe tells us something about the fundamental importance of this resource allocation decision.
这或许告诉我们这一资源分配决策的根本重要性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
And this is obviously just in the context of cardiomyocytes.
这显然只是在心肌细胞的背景下。
But again, that resource allocation decision is happening in every cell in our body all the time.
但同样，资源分配决策一直发生在我们身体的每个细胞中。
And that's one reason why I'm fascinated with this field, is we're just starting to understand how those resource allocation decisions are made, what are the implications of making them correctly and incorrectly-
这就是我对这个领域着迷的原因之一，我们才刚刚开始了解这些资源分配决策是如何做出的，正确和错误地做出这些决策会产生什么影响——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
...
...
and maybe even more excitingly, can we go and fix that?
也许更令人兴奋的是，我们可以去解决这个问题吗？
When a cardiomyocyte or when a heart, more aptly, is making a resource allocation decision that is pathological, can we fix it?
当心肌细胞或更恰当地说是心脏做出病态的资源分配决策时，我们可以修复它吗？
Can we find a therapeutic that will go and correct that and rewire it in the appropriate and healthy way, and can that then restore the proper function of the heart?
我们能否找到一种治疗方法来纠正这一点，并以适当和健康的方式重新连接它，然后才能恢复心脏的正常功能？
Again, I think we're at the frontier of this field, but it's a really exciting place that our field exists now, where we're starting to understand the problems and we're starting, I would say, early in developing the right agents to act and to manipulate this metabolic map that might be able to fix things.
再说一遍，我认为我们正处于这个领域的前沿，但我们的领域现在存在着一个非常令人兴奋的地方，我们开始了解问题，我想说，我们很早就开始开发正确的代理来采取行动并操纵这个可能能够解决问题的代谢图。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Function.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 Function。
Function provides over 160 advanced lab tests to give you a clear snapshot of your bodily health.
功能提供超过 160 项高级实验室测试，让您清晰了解自己的身体健康状况。
This snapshot gives you insights into your heart health, your hormone health, autoimmune function, nutrient levels, and much more.
通过此快照，您可以深入了解心脏健康状况、激素健康状况、自身免疫功能、营养水平等。
They've also recently added access to advanced MRI and CT scans.
他们最近还增加了先进的 MRI 和 CT 扫描的访问权限。
Function not only provides testing of over 160 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, it also analyzes these results and provides recommendations for improving your health from top doctors.
Function 不仅提供对您身心健康至关重要的 160 多种生物标记物的测试，还分析这些结果并提供顶级医生改善您健康的建议。
For example, in a recent test with Function, I learned that some of my blood lipids were slightly out of range.
例如，在最近的一次 Function 测试中，我发现我的一些血脂稍微超出了范围。
As a result, I decided to start supplementing with nattokinase, which can naturally help reduce LDL cholesterol, and it did.
因此，我决定开始补充纳豆激酶，它自然可以帮助降低低密度脂蛋白胆固醇，而且确实如此。
In a follow-up test, I could confirm that this strategy worked.
在后续测试中，我可以确认这个策略是有效的。
My blood lipids are now back exactly where I want them.
我的血脂现在完全回到了我想要的水平。
Comprehensive lab testing of the sort that Function offers is just so important for health.
Function 提供的全面实验室测试对于健康非常重要。
I mean, how else are you going to know what's going on under the hood?
我的意思是，你还怎么知道幕后发生了什么？
And while I've been doing blood work for years, it used to be time-consuming, complicated, and expensive.
虽然我从事血液检查已有多年，但它过去非常耗时、复杂且昂贵。
In fact, I used to spend thousands of dollars per year trying to get this kind of data, and the data, frankly, were not all that good.
事实上，我曾经每年花费数千美元试图获得此类数据，但坦率地说，这些数据并不那么好。
But now with Function, it's extremely easy and affordable.
但现在有了 Function，它变得非常简单且经济实惠。
A function membership is only a dollar a day, $365 a year.
功能会员资格每天仅需 1 美元，每年 365 美元。
And if you think about the information it provides and the health challenges it helps you avoid and the proactive things that it can do for you to enhance your health, I truly look at it as a savings.
如果您考虑一下它提供的信息、它可以帮助您避免的健康挑战以及它可以为您增强健康所做的积极主动的事情，我确实将其视为一种节省。
To learn more, visit functionhealth.com/huberman and use the code Huberman for a $50 credit towards your membership.
要了解更多信息，请访问 functionhealth.com/huberman 并使用代码 Huberman 获得 50 美元的会员积分。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman.
同样，这是 functionhealth.com/huberman。
So is it fair to say that the allocation of energy, which is made pathologic in this mutant mouse, but also in people who have these cardiac conditions and die of heart attack, essentially, it's almost like the identity of the cells is screwed up.
因此，可以公平地说，能量的分配在这只突变小鼠中是病理性的，而且在患有这些心脏病并死于心脏病发作的人中也是如此，本质上，这几乎就像细胞的身份被搞砸了一样。
They're still a cardiomyocyte-
它们仍然是心肌细胞-
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but they're devoting too much energy to making more of themselves and not enough to doing what they're supposed to do.
但他们投入了太多的精力来让自己变得更好，而没有足够的精力去做他们应该做的事情。
I have two analogies that I want to throw out there, and maybe they're too much of a reach, but I love dogs.
我想抛出两个类比，也许它们太过分了，但我喜欢狗。
I have now a medium-sized dog.
我现在有一只中型狗。
I used to have a large dog.
我曾经养过一只大狗。
The larger breeds of dogs live much shorter lives than the smaller ones.
较大品种的狗的寿命比较小品种的狗短得多。
And we actually know that's because of dosing of IGF-1-
我们实际上知道这是因为 IGF-1 的剂量-
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which is a growth pathway thing.
这是一个成长途径的事情。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So there is this story-
于是就有了这样一个故事——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
about larger animals within a given species tend to live much shorter lives than the smaller variety of that same species.
特定物种中的大型动物往往比同一物种中较小的动物寿命短得多。
There's some exceptions to this, but there does seem to be a sort of rule that you can either be big and live a short life, or you can be small and live a longer life within certain species.
虽然也有一些例外，但似乎确实有一种规则，即在某些物种中，你要么体型大而寿命短，要么体型小而寿命较长。
But there's also this thing about heartbeats, right?
但也有关于心跳的事情，对吧？
Like this theory that you only get so many heartbeats in your life.
就像这个理论一样，你一生中只能得到这么多的心跳。
The reason I like these higher level, perhaps, appropriate comparisons, a lot of caveats there, is that ultimately when I think about life and evolution and propagation of species and health versus pathology, it's all about energy, right?
我喜欢这些更高层次的，也许是适当的比较，还有很多警告，是因为最终当我思考生命、进化、物种传播以及健康与病理时，这一切都与能量有关，对吗？
It's like, how are you devoting energy?
就像，你如何投入精力？
It can get into the kind of mystical, spiritual piece.
它可以进入那种神秘的、精神的作品。
That's not our purpose or it's not my purpose-
这不是我们的目的，也不是我的目的-
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in bringing this up now.
现在提出这个问题。
But it seems like at the cellular level and at the subcellular level, which is what you're describing, the allocation of energy, in this case, is the difference between life and death.
但似乎在细胞水平和亚细胞水平上，这就是你所描述的，能量的分配，在这种情况下，是生与死的区别。
But this decision, you're not telling us, like, "Oh, these pathways I discovered along with others-
但这个决定，你并没有告诉我们，“哦，这些途径是我和其他人一起发现的——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
are really like there's a fan out of 50 different options." You're saying make more biomass, more of self, or use energy to be self.
真的就像有 50 种不同的选择中的一个。”你是说制造更多的生物质，更多的自我，或者利用能量来实现自我。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there seems to be a critical balance there.
那里似乎存在一个关键的平衡。
And I have another story I could tell about how if you look at the data on longevity in different athletes, like the gymnasts, the sprinters seem to live three to six years longer on average than others.
我还有另一个故事可以讲，如果你看一下不同运动员（例如体操运动员）的寿命数据，短跑运动员似乎比其他运动员平均寿命长三到六年。
And the endurance runners are somewhere in the middle.
耐力跑运动员则处于中间位置。
And you look at very large athletes, like the powerlifters, and moving aside all things of use of drugs in sports and everything, you go like, the sports where there's just a lot more of somebody-
你看看非常大的运动员，比如举重运动员，抛开所有在运动中使用药物的东西以及一切，你会发现，在运动中，有更多的人——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that's not good for longevity.
这对长寿不利。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It really isn't.
事实并非如此。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So there does seem to be this balance between size and the use of fuel to build more of oneself and the use of fuel to just be oneself.
因此，在规模和使用燃料来构建更多自己以及使用燃料来成为自己之间似乎确实存在这种平衡。
And that self could be a cell.
这个自我可能是一个细胞。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That self could be an organ.
那个自我可能是一个器官。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That self could be a whole organism.
那个自我可能是一个完整的有机体。
And I find that not incidental, but maybe I'm taking too many liberties here.
我发现这并非偶然，但也许我在这里太自由了。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
That's a complex analogy, but I think one thing that is very clear about what you're talking about is this sense of identity in a cell.
这是一个复杂的类比，但我认为你所谈论的非常清楚的一件事就是细胞中的这种身份感。
That's a fundamentally important phenomenon that, again, we've known about for a long time, and there's been an understanding in some cell types, in some ways, about how that identity is established and maintained.
这是一个非常重要的现象，我们很早就知道了，并且在某些细胞类型中以某种方式了解了这种身份是如何建立和维持的。
But I think your question is a really interesting one.
但我认为你的问题非常有趣。
To what extent is disease associated with loss of that cell identity?
疾病在多大程度上与细胞身份的丧失相关？
And cell identity is a bit of a squishy-
细胞身份有点模糊——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure
当然可以
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
...
...
parameter.
参数。
How do you measure what a cell thinks it is?
如何测量细胞的想法？
There's no way to ask it.
没办法问啊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
You're talking about function, right?
你说的是功能吧？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So yeah, like when we had Max Crummle on the podcast, he was like, "Every one of your cells, by the time you reach our age, roughly, in our 30s."
所以，是的，就像我们在播客中邀请 Max Crummle 时一样，他说，“当你达到我们这个年龄时，你的每一个细胞，大约是 30 多岁。”
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I'm kidding.
不，我在开玩笑。
In our 50s, early 50s, is we're a mosaic of our original genetic makeup-
在我们 50 多岁，50 岁出头，我们是原始基因构成的马赛克——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
plus all these mutations-
加上所有这些突变-
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that have accumulated.
已经积累的。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Nobody likes that picture.
没有人喜欢那张照片。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's true.
确实如此。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We're a patchwork of-
我们是拼凑而成的——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
our former self and our newer self.
我们以前的自己和新的自己。
That's one form of cell identity.
这是细胞身份的一种形式。
What I like here is that you're talking about within an organ, within a cell type, you sort of have a choice of, A, make more of oneself-
我在这里喜欢的是，你谈论的是在一个器官内，在一个细胞类型内，你可以选择，A，让自己变得更好-
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or B, just be you.
或者B，就做你自己吧。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So there's something to me conceptually sticky about this notion of size versus use.
因此，对于我来说，尺寸与用途的概念在概念上有些粘性。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
As you say, I think that in a way, we're talking again about resource allocation, allocating to energy versus making more stuff.
正如你所说，我认为在某种程度上，我们再次讨论资源分配，分配给能源而不是制造更多的东西。
That could mean another cell or a bigger cell.
这可能意味着另一个细胞或更大的细胞。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
There's many examples of where making more stuff instead of making more energy is pathological.
有很多例子表明，制造更多的东西而不是制造更多的能源是病态的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
We talked about cancer.
我们谈论了癌症。
We talked about the heart getting pathologically bigger.
我们谈到心脏病理性变大。
Immune cells becoming hyperactivated can lead to inflammatory diseases.
免疫细胞过度活跃会导致炎症性疾病。
There's many examples of that.
这方面的例子有很多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
So I think this is all playing out at the level of individual cells, and what you're talking about is obviously a bigger conceptual framework in which to think about it.
所以我认为这一切都是在单个细胞的层面上发生的，而你所谈论的显然是一个更大的概念框架来思考它。
But I think there is that connection, and I don't know, this is a bit non-scientific, but I do think it's fascinating to understand the historical, philosophical ways that our ancestors thought about the world.
但我认为存在这种联系，我不知道，这有点不科学，但我确实认为理解我们祖先思考世界的历史和哲学方式是很有趣的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
And we find relics of that in our science, right?
我们在科学中找到了这些遗迹，对吗？
That we can see reflected in the discoveries that are made today.
我们可以在今天的发现中看到这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't want to take us off the biology, but if we can go down this pathway a little bit more.
我不想让我们脱离生物学，但如果我们能沿着这条路走得更远一些。
I sometimes think about energy in terms of human interactions, and I think most of us can think of the extremes of benevolent versus malevolent energy exchange.
我有时会从人类互动的角度来思考能量，我认为我们大多数人都能想到善意与恶意能量交换的极端。
Like, let's say somebody...
比如说，有人...
Money is just A tool, right?
钱只是一个工具，对吗？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People say money is energy.
人们说金钱就是能量。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That sounds very-
听起来很——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
like internetty, but really it can be exchanged for something, right?
就像互联网一样，但它确实可以兑换一些东西，对吗？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We've decided that.
我们已经决定了。
And if somebody steals from us, or they promise something and it turns out they overcharge us or something like that, we fundamentally understand the math there.
如果有人偷了我们的东西，或者他们承诺了一些东西，结果却向我们收取了过高的费用，或者类似的事情，我们从根本上理解其中的数学原理。
You said it was going to cost this much, and it cost me more.
你说要花这么多钱，而我要花更多钱。
You said it was going to be this, instead I got that, and this isn't what I paid for, right?
你说会是这个，结果我得到了那个，而且这不是我付的钱，对吗？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But if you look at human interaction and behavior, the stuff that we consider malevolent is usually when someone perceives the energy has been stolen from them.
但如果你观察人类的互动和行为，我们认为恶意的事情通常是当有人察觉到他们的能量被窃取时。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Usually in the form of time-
通常以时间的形式——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but often in the form of physical energy.
但通常以体能的形式存在。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because time is physical energy, right?
因为时间就是物理能量，对吗？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then benevolent acts are generally ones in which there's either an even or a kind of net positive exchange of energy.
仁慈的行为通常是能量的均匀或净正交换的行为。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this is a lot of what structures human interactions.
这就是构建人类互动的很多因素。
I don't want to take us too far, this is not a psychology podcast.
我不想让我们走得太远，这不是心理学播客。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I think about this all the time, and why I like zooming down at the level of the cell is we can find there isn't going to be a perfect relationship between the cell and human interactions at large, but this notion of no cell, if it wants what's best for itself and therefore the organ it resides in, and therefore the organism-
但我一直在思考这个问题，为什么我喜欢在细胞层面上放大，因为我们可以发现，细胞和人类的相互作用之间不会存在完美的关系，但是这种没有细胞的概念，如果它想要对自己最好的东西，因此它所在的器官，因此有机体 -
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
can afford to really cheat itself.
真的可以欺骗自己。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You bring it down to the individual cell.
你把它细化到单个单元格。
The cell can't afford to cheat itself.
细胞无法欺骗自己。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And if too many cells do that, you end up with a big heart that doesn't pump.
如果太多的细胞这样做，你最终会得到一颗无法跳动的大心脏。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it cheated itself.
所以它欺骗了自己。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For me, that's very useful.
对我来说，这非常有用。
I don't know if it is for anyone else.
我不知道是否适合其他人。
So when I think about really critical biology, all these proteins, which ones are you going to study?
所以当我想到真正关键的生物学时，所有这些蛋白质，你要研究哪些？
It's clear to me now why this set of proteins is very important.
我现在很清楚为什么这组蛋白质非常重要。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very, very important.
非常非常重要。
What I didn't get was how you actually found it.
我不明白的是你实际上是如何找到它的。
So was it that you knew there was a gene there that coded for this thing of a certain size, so you started making some, what we call, recombinant version-
所以你知道那里有一个基因可以编码这个特定大小的东西，所以你开始制造一些我们所说的重组版本-
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of that and throwing it on cells, seeing what happened?
然后将其扔到细胞上，看看发生了什么？
Is that kind of the steps that went through?
是这样的步骤吗？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
We knew the protein was there.
我们知道蛋白质就在那里。
What we didn't know is what it did.
我们不知道的是它做了什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
And I would say the key discoveries of that came from genetics.
我想说，其中的关键发现来自遗传学。
Basically, Carl's lab made flies that lacked the MPC, and we could then-
基本上，卡尔的实验室制造了缺乏 MPC 的苍蝇，然后我们可以-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Dead fly?
死苍蝇？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
They were actually alive.
他们实际上还活着。
There's an interesting story there that's probably too in the weeds, but they live.
那里有一个有趣的故事，可能也在杂草丛中，但它们还活着。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
But they had specific manifestations-
但他们却有具体的表现——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
...
...
that we could analyze using chemistry, and I'll tell you about the results of that.
我们可以用化学方法进行分析，我会告诉你结果。
We were studying in other cell types, in yeast cells, and in human cells, and studying the results of losing these genes.
我们正在研究其他细胞类型、酵母细胞和人类细胞，并研究失去这些基因的结果。
Again, this is what's enabled by doing genetics.
同样，这就是通过遗传学实现的。
Mario Capecchi figured out how to do this in mice, and his colleagues.
马里奥·卡佩奇和他的同事们想出了如何在老鼠身上做到这一点。
That gave us the ability to do knockout mice.
这使我们有能力进行基因敲除小鼠。
Other people have enabled it in other species.
其他人已经在其他物种中启用了它。
And by doing that and studying the results, we could then deduce, oh, what's happening in these yeast cells, these fruit flies, and these human cells grown on a dish is they aren't able to take their pyruvate into the mitochondria.
通过这样做并研究结果，我们可以推断，哦，这些酵母细胞、这些果蝇和这些在培养皿上生长的人类细胞中发生的情况是，它们无法将丙酮酸带入线粒体。
By analyzing them using sophisticated chemical tools, we could see that they were basically, their metabolic pathway from glucose to pyruvate, to pyruvate in the mitochondria, to ATP, that was being blocked, and it was being blocked specifically at that level of the pyruvate.
通过使用复杂的化学工具对它们进行分析，我们可以看到它们基本上从葡萄糖到丙酮酸，到线粒体中的丙酮酸，再到 ATP 的代谢途径被阻断，并且它在丙酮酸的水平上被专门阻断。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
So that then gave us the initial hypothesis, maybe that's what these proteins are doing, and we could then go and validate that hypothesis in multiple experiments.
这样我们就得到了最初的假设，也许这就是这些蛋白质正在做的事情，然后我们可以在多个实验中验证这个假设。
And that, like I said, been validated by many other people over the ensuing decade or so.
正如我所说，这一点在接下来的十年左右的时间里得到了许多其他人的验证。
So those were the experiments-
这些就是实验——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it
明白了
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
...
...
that enabled us to figure it out.
这使我们能够弄清楚这一点。
It was really genetics that enabled us to do it.
确实是遗传学使我们能够做到这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very satisfying when a discovery comes about in yeast flies and mammalian, including human cells.
当在酵母果蝇和哺乳动物（包括人类细胞）中取得发现时，非常令人满意。
At what year span was all of that happening?
这一切发生在哪一年？
If you had to really tighten it to-
如果你必须真的把它拧紧到-
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah, we published the paper in 2012.
是的，我们在 2012 年发表了这篇论文。
It probably was going on from 2008 or '9 to 2012, something like that.
它可能是从 2008 年或 9 月一直持续到 2012 年，类似的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is actually an important moment, I think, for people to understand.
我认为，这实际上是一个让人们理解的重要时刻。
When they hear about yeast or flies, they're probably like, "Why are we doing this stuff?"
当他们听说酵母或苍蝇时，他们可能会想，“我们为什么要做这些东西？”
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm not here to plug federal funding for research.
我来这里并不是为了插手联邦研究经费。
I think that just happens naturally as a consequence of the podcast, or at least I hope so.
我认为这只是播客的自然结果，或者至少我希望如此。
But my graduate advisor told me that yeast, they have a very quick turnover, so that's why they're good to-
但我的研究生导师告诉我，酵母的周转速度非常快，所以这就是为什么他们擅长-
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
use.
使用。
And she was a wine drinker, she said, "And they are much smarter than us because they know how to make their own alcohol." So now we know why biologists use yeast.
她是一个喜欢喝酒的人，她说，“他们比我们聪明得多，因为他们知道如何自己酿造酒精。”现在我们知道为什么生物学家使用酵母了。
Fruit flies, it's because of the short generation time.
果蝇，就是因为世代时间短。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can get a lot of experiments done.
你可以做很多实验。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
And they have many of the same structures that a human does.
它们有许多与人类相同的结构。
Not exactly-
不完全是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
...
...
obviously, but they have many structures that a human does, and there are some things that they're particularly good at.
显然，但它们有许多人类的结构，而且有一些东西是它们特别擅长的。
You can look at the whole thing in the microscope and see different cells and different features.
你可以在显微镜下观察整个物体，看到不同的细胞和不同的特征。
And I would say, again, not to plug our specific experiments, but we could not have made that discovery with any one type of organism.
我要再说一遍，不要阻止我们的具体实验，但我们不可能用任何一种生物体来做出这一发现。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
If we just had the yeast data, we wouldn't have figured it out.
如果我们只有酵母数据，我们就无法弄清楚。
If we just had the fly data, we wouldn't have figured it out.
如果我们只有飞行数据，我们就无法弄清楚。
Same with the human cell data.
与人体细胞数据相同。
But putting it all together, we could triangulate what we were seeing in one to what we were seeing in the other, and it became obvious that this is the hypothesis we should pursue.
但把它们放在一起，我们可以将我们在一个中看到的内容与我们在另一个中看到的内容进行三角测量，很明显，这是我们应该追求的假设。
And I think that's been, obviously, an effective strategy that's been employed by scientists for a long time, is to take multiple different approaches, multiple different model systems to answer a complicated question.
我认为这显然是科学家长期以来采用的一种有效策略，即采用多种不同的方法、多种不同的模型系统来回答一个复杂的问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's talk about lactate.
我们来谈谈乳酸。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Every time lactate's come up on this podcast before, it's been in the context of exercise physiology.
以前每次在这个播客中提到乳酸时，都是在运动生理学的背景下进行的。
We had the great Andy Galpin, whose name I don't expect you to recognize, but he's really one of the pre-eminent public educators.
我们有伟大的安迪·加尔平（Andy Galpin），我不希望你认出他的名字，但他确实是一位杰出的公共教育家。
He's a professor of physiology and exercise physiology, and he told us, and he told the world, everyone talks about lactic acid, but we don't actually make lactic acid.
他是一位生理学和运动生理学教授，他告诉我们，他告诉全世界，每个人都在谈论乳酸，但我们实际上并不制造乳酸。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We make this thing called lactate.
我们生产这种叫做乳酸的东西。
But within the cell, lactate plays a very crucial role in this metabolic pathway.
但在细胞内，乳酸在这一代谢途径中起着非常关键的作用。
I know you've spent some time with lactate.
我知道你已经花了一些时间接触乳酸。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So when you think about lactate- What do you think about?
那么，当您想到乳酸时，您会想到什么？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
So pyruvate, we talked about pyruvate extensively.
所以丙酮酸，我们广泛讨论了丙酮酸。
To a first approximation, again, it's a little more complicated than this, but I think this is a good way to think about it.
再次粗略地看，它比这更复杂一些，但我认为这是一个很好的思考方式。
When pyruvate is made, simplistically, it has two fates.
简单地说，当丙酮酸被制造出来时，它有两种命运。
It can go into the mitochondria, we talked about.
我们谈到过，它可以进入线粒体。
What we didn't talk about is the other major fate, is to be converted to lactate and exported.
我们没有谈论的是另一个主要命运，就是转化为乳酸并输出。
And that decision, burn it, make lactate, I think you could make a very strong argument, is one of the most important metabolic decisions that cells are making all the time.
这个决定，燃烧它，产生乳酸，我认为你可以提出一个非常有力的论据，这是细胞一直在做出的最重要的代谢决定之一。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Why would it not burn it or make more of itself?
为什么它不烧掉它或者自己制造更多东西呢？
Because it's just got it in excess?
因为它只是过量了？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
There's something about that production of lactate that enables ongoing production of biomass.
乳酸的生产能够持续生产生物质。
So again, a little more complicated than this.
再说一次，比这更复杂一点。
If you burn the pyruvate, that turns into carbon dioxide, we breathe it out.
如果你燃烧丙酮酸，它会变成二氧化碳，我们会呼出它。
The stuff is gone.
东西不见了。
We breathe it out.
我们把它呼出来。
There's no stuff.
没有东西了
There's just the energy.
这里只有能量。
If you don't burn it, that stuff doesn't get eliminated as carbon dioxide and can turn into a protein, can contribute to protein production or carbohydrate production, or fatty acids that can be used to make new cells.
如果你不燃烧它，这些物质就不会以二氧化碳的形式被消除，并且可以转化为蛋白质，可以有助于蛋白质的产生或碳水化合物的产生，或者可以用来制造新细胞的脂肪酸。
And so that really is that resource allocation decision, as we talked about many times, building or burning.
正如我们多次讨论的那样，这确实是资源分配决策，建设还是燃烧。
And lactate is one of the mediators, in a way, of that building decision.
在某种程度上，乳酸是这一构建决策的调节因素之一。
And so lactate, I think historically has been thought of as a waste product when our cells can't burn, typically because of lack of oxygen.
因此，我认为，当我们的细胞无法燃烧时（通常是因为缺氧），乳酸在历史上一直被认为是一种废物。
We haven't talked so much about the role of oxygen in all this.
我们还没有过多讨论氧气在这一切中的作用。
When I talk about burning, what I really mean is taking that pyruvate or fatty acids or other things and oxidizing them using oxygen, and by so doing, extracting the energy and doing this unbelievably amazing chemistry that the mitochondria do to basically very effectively capture all that energy and make it usable in the form of ATP.
当我谈论燃烧时，我真正的意思是获取丙酮酸或脂肪酸或其他物质，并使用氧气将它们氧化，通过这样做，提取能量并进行线粒体所做的令人难以置信的惊人化学反应，基本上非常有效地捕获所有能量并使其以 ATP 的形式可用。
When oxygen isn't available, that pyruvate cannot be burned, and then it essentially has to be converted to lactate.
当没有氧气时，丙酮酸无法燃烧，然后它必须转化为乳酸。
That's why when we exercise and our muscle becomes hypoxic or doesn't have adequate oxygen, we make lactate, and that lactate is what causes the burn that we feel.
这就是为什么当我们运动时，我们的肌肉缺氧或没有足够的氧气，我们会产生乳酸，而乳酸就是导致我们感到烧灼感的原因。
And we've thought about it traditionally as a waste product.
传统上我们认为它是一种废物。
There's been beautiful experiments done in the last five or 10 years.
在过去的五到十年里，人们进行了一些精彩的实验。
Josh Rabinowitz, a friend of mine and professor at Princeton, has done some of these that have demonstrated that lactate is a very important fuel on its own.
我的朋友、普林斯顿大学教授乔什·拉宾诺维茨 (Josh Rabinowitz) 所做的一些研究表明，乳酸本身就是一种非常重要的燃料。
The heart, for example, is quite good at consuming lactate and burning it.
例如，心脏非常擅长消耗乳酸并燃烧它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The heart, it seems like it's consuming a sort of dog's breakfast of fuels.
心脏，似乎正在消耗一种狗早餐的燃料。
It likes lipids.
它喜欢脂质。
It'll take glucose.
它需要葡萄糖。
It likes lactate.
它喜欢乳酸。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Anything.
任何东西。
That's good for us because that keeps it beating no matter what the metabolic status.
这对我们有好处，因为无论新陈代谢状况如何，它都能保持跳动。
As long as we're alive, we have something that it can burn.
只要我们还活着，我们就有可以燃烧的东西。
And lactate is just an important mediator of carrying that energy around.
乳酸只是携带能量的重要媒介。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It can be a fuel.
它可以是一种燃料。
It can be a shuttle.
它可以是班车。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In the context of exercise and brain, and I know we're not talking about actionables here, but like I've mentioned before on this podcast, if we do an intense, typically it's aerobic exercise, we get enough lactate generated, that does seem to be a signal to the brain for this brain-derived neurotrophic factor, which now kind of makes sense in this context because the whole purpose of BDNF is to build more stuff, more connections typically, rather than break connections.
在运动和大脑的背景下，我知道我们在这里讨论的并不是可操作的，但就像我之前在这个播客中提到的，如果我们进行剧烈的（通常是有氧运动），我们会产生足够的乳酸，这似乎确实是向大脑发送这种脑源性神经营养因子的信号，这在这种情况下是有意义的，因为 BDNF 的全部目的是建立更多的东西，通常是更多的连接，而不是破坏连接。
So it's amazing that we think of these things like a waste product, just like we used to talk about junk DNA.
所以令人惊讶的是，我们将这些东西视为废物，就像我们过去谈论垃圾 DNA 一样。
Nobody does that anymore.
没有人再这样做了。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We have to be very careful with language in biology, I'm realizing.
我意识到，我们必须非常小心生物学中的语言。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The moment we label something conceptually, you shut down a field and a line of discovery that almost always ends up being super important.
当我们从概念上给某件事贴上标签的那一刻起，你就关闭了一个领域和一条发现路线，而这些发现几乎总是最终变得非常重要。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
We joke all the time in the mitochondria field about the powerhouse of the cell, right?
我们在线粒体领域一直开玩笑说细胞是发电站，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Which it really is.
确实如此。
The mitochondria are very good at being a powerhouse and making ATP, but they do so much more.
线粒体非常擅长成为发电站并制造 ATP，但它们的作用远不止于此。
And again, just to illustrate the point that when we categorize something into one thing, this is what it does-
再次，只是为了说明这一点，当我们将某物分类为一件事时，这就是它的作用-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
...
...
we're almost always proven wrong, and it turns out to be a bit more complicated.
我们几乎总是被证明是错误的，而且事实证明情况有点复杂。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's something I can't wrap my head around because if I have an excess of energy and therefore I'm making lactate, am I going to now prioritize lactate?
有些事情我无法理解，因为如果我能量过剩，因此我正在制造乳酸，我现在会优先考虑乳酸吗？
Is that going to now get burned off the top of the energy priority scale?
现在它会从能源优先级的顶部消失吗？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
That's a good question, and I don't think we have strict answers to this, but there's definitely prioritization of energy.
这是一个很好的问题，我认为我们对此没有严格的答案，但能源肯定是优先考虑的。
One of the most important things to burn is fatty acids, and the reason for that is that when fatty acids are in excess, they can be toxic, and they can be toxic in an acute way, quickly.
最重要的燃烧物质之一是脂肪酸，其原因是当脂肪酸过量时，它们可能会有毒，而且会迅速、急性地产生毒性。
Glucose, again, is toxic in excess, but chronically.
再次强调，过量的葡萄糖会产生毒性，但这种毒性是长期存在的。
Maybe it's a little bit less dangerous if we have high glucose for some time.
如果我们的血糖水平持续一段时间，也许危险性会小一些。
High free fatty acids is dangerous now.
高游离脂肪酸现在很危险。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And not just because it clogs arteries.
不仅仅是因为它会堵塞动脉。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
That, of course.
那，当然。
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah, in ways that we probably don't need to get into, but it can be disruptive to cell structures and so forth.
是的，以我们可能不需要了解的方式，但它可能会破坏细胞结构等。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
And so most cells, when they have fatty acids, will burn the fatty acids first, probably as a response to, "Hey, this could kill us.
因此，大多数细胞在含有脂肪酸时，会首先燃烧脂肪酸，这可能是对“嘿，这可能会杀死我们”的反应。
Let's take care of this first."
我们先处理一下这个吧。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is also true of the fatty acids we ingest.
我们摄入的脂肪酸也是如此。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
This is also true of the fatty acids we ingest, if they get into cells, of course.
当然，我们摄入的脂肪酸也是如此，如果它们进入细胞的话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
You could imagine, again, it's a little more complicated than this, but the fatty acids we ingest and the fatty acids we make end up in the same pathways, right?
你可以再次想象，它比这更复杂一些，但我们摄入的脂肪酸和我们制造的脂肪酸最终会进入相同的途径，对吗？
They both get into other cells throughout the body.
它们都进入全身的其他细胞。
And when they do, they need to be handled appropriately.
当它们发生时，需要进行适当的处理。
Lactate is maybe a little bit more on that side.
乳酸可能在这一侧多一点。
It has some important effects to the chemistry of cells that are important to deal with.
它对细胞化学有一些重要的影响，需要处理。
And so lactate, if it gets too high in the body, it can be toxic.
因此，如果体内的乳酸含量过高，就会产生毒性。
Lactic acidosis, which is essentially the phenomenon where we have too much lactic acid lactate in our circulation.
乳酸酸中毒，本质上是我们循环中乳酸过多的现象。
That's bad and can be lethal.
这很糟糕，而且可能是致命的。
And so dealing with that lactate is important.
因此处理乳酸很重要。
And so yeah, I think there is a prioritization that probably comes as a result of evolutionary pressure.
所以，是的，我认为存在一个优先顺序可能是进化压力的结果。
We had ancestors that maybe didn't deal with fatty acids so well.
我们的祖先可能不太擅长处理脂肪酸。
And maybe didn't survive.
也许没有幸存。
But we had one individual that figured out how to deal with them more effectively, and that individual survived better and that trait was selected for, and we're now pretty good at it.
但我们有一个人知道如何更有效地应对它们，并且那个人生存得更好，并且选择了该特征，我们现在非常擅长这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We had a colleague of yours on the podcast who studies hypoxia and spleen function.
我们的播客中有一位研究缺氧和脾功能的同事。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we were talking about how everyone hears the word mutation, and they think like, "Oh, mutations are just always damaging."
我们谈论的是每个人如何听到突变这个词，他们的想法是，“哦，突变总是有害的。”
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But these mutations that afford more life, that are adaptive, essentially-
但这些突变能够提供更多的生命，具有适应性，本质上是——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
people can't hear that enough.
人们听不够。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mutations are the reason we're here.
突变是我们存在于此的原因。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So the X-Men had it right.
所以X战警是对的。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a good series to watch.
这是一个值得观看的好系列。
On the other side of the coin, the maladaptive situation, could you tell us about the Warburg effect-
另一方面，适应不良的情况，你能告诉我们关于瓦尔堡效应吗？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and its role in cancer?
及其在癌症中的作用？
And I do want to frame this properly because nowadays we're living in a weird time around this topic of cancer.
我确实想正确地阐述这一点，因为现在我们生活在一个围绕癌症话题的奇怪时代。
There are these corners of the internet that don't actually believe in cancer or germ theory.
互联网上有一些角落实际上并不相信癌症或细菌理论。
They just don't believe it.
他们只是不相信。
And some of that is actually kind of catching on.
其中一些实际上很流行。
I believe cancer exists, and I believe that cancers can come about through a variety of mechanisms.
我相信癌症的存在，并且我相信癌症可以通过多种机制发生。
So only if you believe that to be true, that it can come about through a variety of mechanisms-
因此，只有当你相信这是真的，它才能通过多种机制实现——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
would I ask you to-
我可以请你-
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
agree.
同意。
If you disagree-
如果你不同意——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
please disagree.
请不同意。
But it's true, right?
但这是真的，对吧？
That there are a lot of paths to cancer.
导致癌症的途径有很多。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
There's no question that there are some fundamental features of cancer.
毫无疑问，癌症有一些基本特征。
All cancers, to my knowledge, have mutations in the genome.
据我所知，所有癌症都存在基因组突变。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
And those mutations are many, but tend to, again, work together to cause that cell to divide-
这些突变很多，但往往会再次共同作用，导致细胞分裂——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
...
...
to replicate itself more rapidly, to evade the immune system, which is patrolling, looking for misbehaving cells and to eliminate them.
更快地自我复制，逃避正在巡逻的免疫系统，寻找行为不当的细胞并消灭它们。
And somehow cancer cells can avoid that.
癌细胞可以以某种方式避免这种情况。
Critically important.
至关重要。
And one of the most exciting developments in cancer therapy over the last 10 or 15 years has been these checkpoint inhibitors, PD-1, PD-L1, inhibitors that basically reverse that.
过去 10 或 15 年癌症治疗中最令人兴奋的进展之一是检查点抑制剂、PD-1、PD-L1，这些抑制剂基本上可以逆转这一情况。
Cancer cells are very good at cloaking themselves, let's say, from the immune system.
比如说，癌细胞非常擅长隐藏自己以躲避免疫系统的攻击。
And those therapies eliminate that cloak and allow them to be seen by the immune system and eliminate it.
这些疗法消除了这种伪装，让它们被免疫系统发现并消除。
And there's just been amazing responses to those new therapies.
这些新疗法产生了惊人的反应。
Again, they don't treat every cancer to the same degree, but there's been wonderful examples where they've been effective.
再说一次，他们对每种癌症的治疗程度并不相同，但有一些很好的例子表明它们是有效的。
So yeah, cancers can arise through many different pathways.
所以，是的，癌症可以通过许多不同的途径产生。
They all are associated with mutations.
它们都与突变有关。
One of the common features of cancer is changes in metabolism, and when you talk about the Warburg effect, this is really fundamentally what you're talking about.
癌症的共同特征之一是新陈代谢的变化，当您谈论瓦尔堡效应时，这实际上就是您所谈论的根本问题。
So the Warburg effect is a phenomenon that was named after Otto Warburg, a German scientist back in the 1920s, that observed that cancer cells consumed less oxygen than would be expected from the cells around them.
因此，瓦尔堡效应是一种以 20 年代德国科学家奥托·瓦尔堡 (Otto Warburg) 的名字命名的现象，他观察到癌细胞消耗的氧气少于其周围细胞的预期消耗的氧气。
And that has been named the Warburg effect.
这被称为瓦尔堡效应。
What Otto Warburg thought was that that's because the mitochondria are broken, and then concluded that broken mitochondria are probably the cause of cancer.
奥托·瓦尔堡认为这是因为线粒体被破坏了，然后得出结论，线粒体被破坏可能是癌症的原因。
That was the thinking that permeated from the time of Otto Warburg in the 1920s for many years.
这是从 20 世纪 20 年代奥托·瓦尔堡 (Otto Warburg) 时代起就一直存在的思想。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Broken, meaning they're not making ATP or they're doing something-
破碎，意味着他们没有制造 ATP 或者他们正在做某事-
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
wacky.
古怪的。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, they're not consuming oxygen.
嗯，他们不消耗氧气。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
That was the observation.
这就是观察结果。
The oxygen consumption was low, and that is, again, mitochondria as the powerhouse of the cell, are consuming oxygen.
耗氧量低，也就是说，线粒体作为细胞的动力源，正在消耗氧气。
That's how they're doing their powerhouse function, making ATP.
这就是它们发挥其强大功能（制造 ATP）的方式。
So that was the observation.
这就是观察结果。
The interpretation of that observation was that mitochondria are probably broken.
对这一观察结果的解释是线粒体可能被破坏了。
We now know, we've talked about this, that mitochondria do more than just make ATP.
我们现在知道，我们已经讨论过这一点，线粒体的作用不仅仅是产生 ATP。
And it turns out that mitochondria in cancer cells are not broken.
事实证明，癌细胞中的线粒体并没有被破坏。
In fact, they're very good, not necessarily at making ATP, but at making stuff.
事实上，他们非常擅长，不一定擅长制造 ATP，但擅长制造东西。
And again, the stuff is what's so important for a cancer cell because it needs to divide itself.
再说一次，这些东西对癌细胞来说非常重要，因为它需要自我分裂。
It needs to duplicate itself to eventually make a tumor.
它需要自我复制才能最终形成肿瘤。
So the Warburg effect is a phenomenon, again, in simple terms, that is absolutely the case.
所以瓦尔堡效应是一种现象，简单来说，情况绝对如此。
That many cancer cells, most tumors consume less oxygen than you would imagine because instead of burning their fuel, again, we talked about this bifurcation.
许多癌细胞，大多数肿瘤消耗的氧气比你想象的要少，因为我们没有燃烧它们的燃料，我们再次讨论了这种分叉。
Cancer cells tend to not be burning, and by burning, that's consuming oxygen, but they're using their resource allocation to build stuff, to build a new cell.
癌细胞往往不会燃烧，通过燃烧，会消耗氧气，但它们正在利用其资源分配来构建东西，构建新细胞。
And so I think this dovetails very nicely with what we've been talking about before.
所以我认为这与我们之前讨论的内容非常吻合。
The oxygen consumption, the Warburg effect, is basically just a surrogate for that resource allocation question.
耗氧量，即瓦尔堡效应，基本上只是资源分配问题的替代品。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
And cancer cells are very adept at using their resources to duplicate themselves.
癌细胞非常善于利用它们的资源来复制自己。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Of the modern treatments for cancer, radiation, chemotherapy, and immunotherapies, and what's happening now, I had someone on talking about CAR T-cells and things of that sort.
关于癌症、放射、化疗和免疫疗法的现代治疗方法，以及现在正在发生的事情，我有人谈论了 CAR T 细胞和类似的事情。
But is there anything that you kind of sense on the horizon, it might be five, 10 years out or two years out, that if we could just solve that, that we would be in a position to treat and cure many more cancers?
但是，您是否感觉到，如果我们能够解决这个问题，可能需要五年、十年或两年后，我们就能治疗和治愈更多的癌症？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's the kind of linchpin thing here?
这里的关键是什么？
Is it being able to reallocate the use of pyruvate?
是否能够重新分配丙酮酸的使用？
If we could do that, if that was a druggable thing, or you could do a gene therapy, or you could use non-invasive tools like ultrasound or light.
如果我们能做到这一点，如果这是一种可以药物治疗的东西，或者你可以进行基因疗法，或者你可以使用超声波或光等非侵入性工具。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
These are all just forces, right?
这些都只是力量，对吗？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Chemical or...
化学或...
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I always like to simplify things for people, if possible.
如果可能的话，我总是喜欢为人们简化事情。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There are two ways to change things in the body, healthy or unhealthy.
有两种方法可以改变身体的状况，健康的或不健康的。
You have mechanical choices and chemical choices.
您有机械选择和化学选择。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
You can feel more full by having your gut distend or you can feel more full because your hypothalamus says-
你可以通过肠道扩张来感觉更饱，或者你可以感觉更饱，因为你的下丘脑说：
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
"You're full."
“你吃饱了。”
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's a bunch of other stuff involved.
还有很多其他的东西。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But that's all we've got-
但这就是我们所拥有的一切——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is mechanical and chemical forces.
是机械力和化学力。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So let's assume you had the tool.
因此，我们假设您拥有该工具。
Is there some place where you feel like if we could just turn that bolt-
有没有什么地方你觉得我们可以转动那个螺栓-
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
we would be in a much better position to treat a lot of cancers or cure them?
我们是否能够更好地治疗或治愈许多癌症？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Let's maybe take a step back from that and then get to that question in a second and talk about cancer, what it is and why it's so difficult.
也许让我们退一步，然后再讨论这个问题，谈谈癌症，它是什么以及为什么它如此困难。
If a bacteria invades us, it's very easy for our immune system to say, "Hey, that's not us.
如果细菌入侵我们，我们的免疫系统很容易说：“嘿，那不是我们。
Let's go kill that thing."
我们去杀掉那东西吧。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
If a cancer cell starts hyper-proliferating, it's us, right?
如果癌细胞开始过度增殖，那就是我们，对吗？
It's our cells.
这是我们的细胞。
It doesn't have antigens, which are the technical term for the molecules, the features that are recognized by the immune system.
它没有抗原，这是分子的技术术语，是免疫系统识别的特征。
It doesn't necessarily have antigens that are recognized as not us, non-self.
它不一定具有被识别为非我们、非自我的抗原。
So that's one of the big challenges of cancer.
所以这是癌症的巨大挑战之一。
The challenge for us is to figure out a way to kill those cells, which again, are our cells, they are us, is to kill those cells without killing the rest of our cells, because if we kill the rest of our cells, we kill us, right?
我们面临的挑战是找出一种方法来杀死这些细胞，这些细胞又是我们的细胞，它们就是我们，就是杀死这些细胞而不杀死我们其余的细胞，因为如果我们杀死其余的细胞，我们就会杀死我们，对吗？
That's the challenge of cancer therapy, in my view.
在我看来，这就是癌症治疗的挑战。
Again, I'm oversimplifying, but that's a big challenge.
再说一遍，我过于简单化了，但这是一个很大的挑战。
And many of the features of cancer cells are not completely new things that that cancer just invented.
癌细胞的许多特征并不是癌症刚刚发明的全新事物。
It's using the functions that our normal cells have.
它利用了我们正常细胞所具有的功能。
For example, one of the things that's common, not universal, but common in cancer cells, is to become more like a stem cell.
例如，在癌细胞中常见的（虽然不是普遍的）但很常见的事情之一就是变得更像干细胞。
Has many features of stem cells.
具有干细胞的许多特征。
So okay, we can find a way to target a specific stem cell pathway and kill all the cells that have that.
好吧，我们可以找到一种方法来针对特定的干细胞途径并杀死所有具有该途径的细胞。
Well, then we're killing many of our stem cells, too, and now the lining of our gut doesn't regenerate, which we talked about.
好吧，那么我们也杀死了许多干细胞，现在我们的肠道内壁无法再生，正如我们所讨论的。
That's driven by stem cells.
这是由干细胞驱动的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hair falls and-
头发掉落，然后——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Hair falls out.
头发脱落。
Exactly.
确切地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
This is obviously one reason why many of the side effects of chemotherapy is to target those proliferating cells, which share many features with cancer cells.
显然，这就是为什么化疗的许多副作用都是针对那些与癌细胞有许多共同特征的增殖细胞的原因之一。
So that's the problem of cancer therapy.
这就是癌症治疗的问题。
And there's a second problem that's worth talking about, too.
还有第二个问题也值得讨论。
We've talked about evolution a lot here, which I think it's a great rubric by which to think about biology.
我们在这里讨论了很多进化论，我认为这是思考生物学的一个很好的标准。
Cancer cells, a tumor, is under evolutionary pressure, right?
癌细胞，一种肿瘤，面临着进化压力，对吧？
So let's take an example where we have a tumor.
让我们举一个有肿瘤的例子。
And we get a drug, we have a great drug that kills 99.9% of the cells in that tumor.
我们得到了一种药物，我们有一种很棒的药物，可以杀死肿瘤中 99.9% 的细胞。
But 0.1% of the cells, either through a mutation or some sort of an adaptation, are not killed by it.
但 0.1% 的细胞，无论是通过突变还是某种适应，都没有被它杀死。
But that 0.1% can now repopulate, make a new tumor.
但这 0.1% 现在可以重新生长，形成新的肿瘤。
And this is what happens in cancer therapy.
这就是癌症治疗中发生的情况。
We all know of tragic examples where loved ones had a tumor, got a treatment, and they went into remission.
我们都知道一些悲惨的例子，亲人患有肿瘤，接受治疗后病情得到缓解。
The tumor maybe shrinks, it goes away, maybe even becomes invisible by the imaging tools that we have to image cancers.
肿瘤可能会缩小、消失，甚至可能通过我们用于癌症成像的成像工具而变得不可见。
But then it comes back.
但随后它又回来了。
And that's because these cells are under evolutionary pressure.
那是因为这些细胞面临着进化压力。
If one cell, theoretically, one cell acquires a mutation that makes it resistant to that drug, doesn't get killed by that drug, that one cell can now repopulate, make a new tumor, and be just as damaging.
理论上，如果一个细胞获得了一种突变，使其对该药物产生抗药性，并且没有被该药物杀死，那么该细胞现在可以重新繁殖，产生新的肿瘤，并且具有同样的破坏性。
And now it's resistant to the drug.
现在它对药物产生了耐药性。
Now the drug doesn't work anymore.
现在药已经没有作用了。
And this is the second big problem with cancer therapy.
这是癌症治疗的第二大问题。
This is not my field of expertise per se, but I feel like given that situation, this is not dissimilar to what happens with viruses.
这本身不是我的专业领域，但我觉得考虑到这种情况，这与病毒发生的情况没有什么不同。
HIV now can be managed, and frequently is managed, by a triple combination therapy.
现在，艾滋病毒可以通过三重联合疗法来控制，并且经常得到控制。
And the reason for that is you now give three drugs that are going to kill that virus or prevent the propagation of that virus.
原因是你现在给予三种药物来杀死该病毒或阻止该病毒的传播。
It's now very difficult to acquire resistance to all three simultaneously.
现在很难同时获得对这三者的抵抗力。
I think the analogy applies to cancer, too.
我认为这个类比也适用于癌症。
I think the future of cancer therapy, again in my worldview, is going to be we have many safe and effective drugs that hit different features of the cancer cells' biochemistry.
我认为，在我的世界观中，癌症治疗的未来将是我们拥有许多安全有效的药物，可以针对癌细胞生化的不同特征。
And by virtue of understanding the specifics of the tumor that I might have, the astute oncologist can say, "Given that unique biochemistry of that tumor, this drug, this drug, and this drug are going to work together to kill that tumor."
通过了解我可能患有的肿瘤的具体情况，精明的肿瘤学家可以说：“鉴于该肿瘤独特的生物化学，这种药物、这种药物和这种药物将共同作用来杀死该肿瘤。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
And it's going to be very hard for that tumor to become resistant to all of those drugs simultaneously.
而且肿瘤很难同时对所有这些药物产生耐药性。
And as a result of that, that might result in something approximating a cure.
因此，这可能会导致某种接近治愈的结果。
I think that's the world that we need to get to.
我认为这就是我们需要到达的世界。
So there's been amazing therapies that have come out.
因此，出现了一些令人惊奇的疗法。
One of the most exciting recently are drugs that target specific oncogenic mutations, specific mutations that cause cancer.
最近最令人兴奋的药物之一是针对特定致癌突变（即导致癌症的特定突变）的药物。
KRAS mutations are one that are really exciting, that target specific proteins that are contributing to the cancer in a completely specific way.
KRAS 突变是一种非常令人兴奋的突变，它以完全特定的方式针对导致癌症的特定蛋白质。
Don't do anything else in the body to normal cells, only hit those mutations that are oncogenic.
不要对体内的正常细胞做任何其他事情，只针对那些致癌的突变。
But again, eventually there can be resistances acquired to that.
但同样，最终可能会遇到阻力。
So if we can now make multiple examples of that kind of specific, safe kind of drug and use them in combinations, our ability to treat cancer is going to be dramatically improved.
因此，如果我们现在能够制作这种特定的、安全的药物的多个例子并将它们组合使用，我们治疗癌症的能力将得到显着提高。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's very encouraging.
这非常令人鼓舞。
We had a guy on the podcast named David Fajgenbaum.
我们的播客中有一位名叫 David Fajgenbaum 的人。
He's a medical doctor.
他是一名医生。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are you familiar with his work?
你熟悉他的作品吗？
He's at University of Pennsylvania.
他在宾夕法尼亚大学。
He had Castleman's disease-
他患有卡斯尔曼氏病——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and he was able to cure his own Castleman's disease because he was basically on his deathbed.
他能够治愈自己的卡斯尔曼病，因为他基本上已经临终了。
And he basically just started taking different combinations of already approved drugs-
他基本上刚刚开始服用已批准药物的不同组合-
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in a kind of desperate attempt to save his life.
在一种绝望的尝试中挽救他的生命。
And he found things that would extend his life-
他发现了可以延长他生命的东西——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and he's been alive 11 years now.
现在他已经活了11年了。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And he runs a lab, serious scientist, as we say, but he also has this not-for-profit called Every Cure, which has been successfully using AI and cell assays and things to take tumor biopsies and try and figure out, like, okay, in this Tragedy of a kid who's dying of a particular cancer.
正如我们所说，他经营着一个严肃的科学家实验室，但他也有一个名为“Every Cure”的非营利组织，该组织已成功地使用人工智能和细胞分析等技术进行肿瘤活检，并尝试找出答案，就像一个死于某种特定癌症的孩子的悲剧一样。
Let's just throw a bunch of not random drugs, but already approved drugs at this tumor-
让我们用一堆不是随机的药物，而是已经批准的药物来治疗这个肿瘤——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in a dish.
在一个盘子里。
And if some of them work, if the parents agree and there's no other hope, do it.
如果其中一些有效，如果父母同意并且没有其他希望，那就去做吧。
And in some cases, they're curing.
在某些情况下，它们正在治愈。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And in many cases, they're extending life.
在许多情况下，它们可以延长寿命。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It matches up well with what you're describing.
与你所描述的情况非常吻合。
It requires this AI piece to run iterations, because there's a huge catalog of drugs that even oncologists might not be aware of.
它需要这个人工智能部分来运行迭代，因为有大量的药物目录甚至连肿瘤学家也可能不知道。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One particular highlight of his work is that we know now that in breast cancers where they use lidocaine during the surgery, the incidences of recurrence are significantly lower.
他的工作的一个特别亮点是，我们现在知道，在乳腺癌手术中使用利多卡因，复发率显着降低。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it turns out that lidocaine has some effect on the local environment.
事实证明，利多卡因对当地环境有一定影响。
This isn't my area, but David talks about this.
这不是我的领域，但大卫谈到了这个。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm encouraged by things like that and what you're describing, that we're not necessarily going to have the miracle drug, but the miracle cocktail for that individual, that cancer.
我对类似的事情和你所描述的感到鼓舞，我们不一定会拥有神奇的药物，但会为那个人、那个癌症提供神奇的鸡尾酒。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
That's the key thing, is that-
这才是关键，那就是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
...
...
David's situation is very specific to David.
大卫的情况对大卫来说非常具体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
And every tumor is a little bit different.
每个肿瘤都有点不同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
And one of, I think, the unhelpful results of historically how we talk about tumors is we talk about breast cancer or liver cancer or-
我认为，历史上我们谈论肿瘤的无益结果之一是我们谈论乳腺癌或肝癌或-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
...
...
colon cancer.
结肠癌。
There are some breast cancers that are more similar to some liver cancers than they are to other breast cancers, right?
有些乳腺癌与某些肝癌比与其他乳腺癌更相似，对吗？
Our historical classification of cancer has just been by where it is.
我们对癌症的历史分类只是按其现状进行的。
It's defined by the surgeons that would take it out.
它是由将其取出的外科医生定义的。
But the specific mutations that cause that cancer and keep that cancer, again, evading the immune system, propagating, avoiding cell death, and so forth, are unique to that cancer.
但是，导致癌症并保留癌症的特定突变，同样，逃避免疫系统、传播、避免细胞死亡等，是该癌症所独有的。
So if we understand the unique mutational landscape of that cancer, that gives us then an ability to say, again, in a world that isn't today's world, but hopefully not too far from now, where we have the ability to say, "This combination of drugs is going to be effective at killing the cells in that tumor."
因此，如果我们了解这种癌症的独特突变情况，那么我们就有能力再说一遍，在一个不是当今世界的世界，但希望离现在不太远，我们有能力说，“这种药物组合将有效杀死该肿瘤中的细胞。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're highlighting something really important that is both about the sociology of medicine and science.
你强调了一些关于医学社会学和科学社会学的非常重要的事情。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That it's not disparaging of it, it's just it is the way it is because of history.
这并不是贬低它，只是因为历史，它就是这样。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So much of the way things are in medicine and science can be answered by the phrase that everyone should hate, which is, "Well, we've always done it that way."
医学和科学中的很多事情都可以用每个人都应该讨厌的短语来回答，那就是，“好吧，我们一直都是这样做的。”
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is the worst reason to do anything unless it's working spectacularly well, right?
除非事情效果非常好，否则做任何事情最糟糕的理由是什么，对吧？
But is it a stretch to say that there are some liver cancers that are called liver cancer, but that are actually much closer in terms of their cellular phenotype to cancer of a cardiomyocyte because of the way that, say, MPC one is changed?
但是，有些肝癌虽然被称为肝癌，但实际上由于 MPC 细胞的改变方式，其细胞表型与心肌细胞癌更接近，这样说是否有些牵强？
In other words, should we be classifying cancers as, oh, this is a cancer of the sort that the cells are making too much of themselves?
换句话说，我们是否应该将癌症分类为，哦，这是一种细胞过度利用自身的癌症？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As opposed to they're overusing energy.
相反，他们过度使用能源。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or there's too much pyruvate.
或者丙酮酸过多。
I'm making this up.
我正在弥补这个。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Obviously not my field.
显然不是我的领域。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But rather than think only about address-
但不要只考虑地址——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the body.
在身体里。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
No question that we should be thinking about the specific features of cancer.
毫无疑问，我们应该考虑癌症的具体特征。
I've been talking about it in terms of the mutation.
我一直在谈论突变。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
The specific mutations that define a cancer, and I think that's a useful way to do it.
定义癌症的特定突变，我认为这是一种有用的方法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Because those mutations, in a way, are the instructions for making a new cell, right?
因为这些突变在某种程度上是制造新细胞的指令，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
The genome of a cell are the instructions for how to make a new cell.
细胞的基因组是如何制造新细胞的指令。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
The constituents that would make up a new cell.
组成新细胞的成分。
But I think a very important feature that you're touching on that I appreciate you bringing up is on top of that, layered on top of that is the unique metabolism that makes up that cell.
但我认为你所提到的一个非常重要的特征，我很欣赏你提出的，是最重要的，最重要的是构成该细胞的独特的新陈代谢。
Right?
正确的？
That enables those instructions to be executed.
这使得这些指令能够被执行。
A cell can have all the right instructions to make a new cell, but if it doesn't have the building blocks, the lumber and the bricks and the mortar to make a new cell, it can't make a new cell.
一个细胞可以拥有制造新细胞的所有正确指令，但如果它没有制造新细胞的构件、木材、砖块和砂浆，它就无法制造新细胞。
And so I think that's a really important feature of this that we need to talk about.
所以我认为这是我们需要讨论的一个非常重要的特征。
And there's been a lot of energy in the field over the last 10 or 15 years, maybe even 10 years or less, at trying to specifically block the resource allocation of cancer cells toward building new cells.
过去 10 年或 15 年，甚至可能 10 年或更短的时间里，该领域投入了大量精力，试图专门阻止癌细胞的资源分配以构建新细胞。
The challenge there, again, is that it's fairly easy to develop resistance to that.
再次面临的挑战是，很容易对此产生抵制。
A cancer cell can just make a mutation and rewire its metabolism to build that same thing a different way.
癌细胞可以发生突变并重新连接其新陈代谢，以不同的方式构建相同的东西。
But that is a very important feature of the cancer, too.
但这也是癌症的一个非常重要的特征。
Beyond just the mutations are the metabolic processes that enable those mutations to be manifest in what turns into a tumor.
除了突变之外，还有代谢过程，使这些突变在形成肿瘤的过程中得以体现。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How far are we from a world where I drink a fluid, and it's a safe fluid, because we do this for other types of imaging, and I step into a tube, and I do it when I'm five-
我们距离一个我喝液体的世界还有多远，它是一种安全的液体，因为我们这样做是为了其他类型的成像，我走进一个管子，当我五岁的时候我就这样做了-
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and I do it when I'm 50.
当我 50 岁的时候我就会这么做。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I get a picture of red and green in every cell.
我得到了每个细胞中红色和绿色的图片。
Right?
正确的？
So I get an image of the proportion of my metabolism in different organs, and you could zoom into a single cell.
所以我得到了不同器官中新陈代谢比例的图像，你可以放大到单个细胞。
This is not science fiction at the level of it couldn't be done.
这并不是科幻小说中无法做到的。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Where you say, okay, this is a healthy cardiomyocyte, and it's using 65% of its energy to just keep pumping.
你会说，好吧，这是一个健康的心肌细胞，它使用 65% 的能量来保持泵血。
And then it puts aside a little bit to make sure it can make more of its stuff, so it stays around, and a little bit, it's going to this other pathway, and that's a healthy cardiomyocyte.
然后它留出一点点，以确保它可以制造更多的东西，所以它会留在周围，并且一点点，它会进入另一个途径，这是一个健康的心肌细胞。
We know this from the population of-
我们从人口中知道这一点——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
age-matched data.
年龄匹配的数据。
And then when I'm 40, 50, you go, "Yeah, I don't know.
然后当我 40 岁、50 岁的时候，你会说：“是的，我不知道。
Your heart's looking a little more green than red," or something like that.
你的心看起来比红色更绿一点，”或者类似的话。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We can kind of turn the dial back.
我们可以把拨盘转回来。
We have druggable targets inside of cells, and we can adjust the energy allocation.
我们在细胞内有可药物靶点，我们可以调整能量分配。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is what I'm describing so crazy?
我所描述的有那么疯狂吗？
Because I can imagine a mouse experiment or paper will probably come out on that next week, if it hasn't already.
因为我可以想象，如果还没有的话，下周可能会有小鼠实验或论文发表。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that's kind of what you want.
这就是你想要的。
You want subcellular resolution.
你想要亚细胞分辨率。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because I feel like we've gone from this place where I was around when the first functional magnetic resonance-
因为我觉得我们已经离开了第一次功能性磁共振检查时我所在的地方——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
imaging stuff was like, "Here's a person looking at a banana."
成像的东西就像是，“这是一个人在看香蕉。”
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"Here's a person hearing a joke." And now you can see dynamics and you can see axon pathways, but if we get down to the cells, cool.
“这是一个人在听笑话。”现在你可以看到动态，你可以看到轴突路径，但如果我们深入到细胞，那就酷了。
It's a lot of salt and pepper.
这是很多盐和胡椒。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Then you get down to the inner workings of the cells, and you can't see everything.
然后你深入了解细胞的内部运作，但你无法看到一切。
If you look at everything, it's going to look like chaos.
如果你观察一切，就会发现一切都是混乱的。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Someone put on X this morning, actually, a AI rendering of all the proteins in a cell in one tiny patch of cell, and it's just overwhelming.
实际上，今天早上有人放上了 X，将细胞中所有蛋白质的人工智能渲染到一小块细胞中，这真是令人难以抗拒。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're just like, "Oh my God." Like, "There's so much here." But if you could just say, "Let's just look at metabolism at this key node, and we know what healthy should be.
你就像，“天哪。”就像，“这里有这么多。”但如果你可以说，“让我们看看这个关键节点的新陈代谢，我们就知道健康应该是什么。
Here's where you're at."
这就是你所在的地方。”
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you're just trying to tilt that balance.
而你只是想打破这种平衡。
That, to me, feels like that could be done.
对我来说，感觉这是可以做到的。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We've got smart people working on this.
我们有聪明的人在做这件事。
We need more money-
我们需要更多的钱——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for scientists to work this stuff out.
让科学家们解决这个问题。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And more scientists to do that work.
还有更多的科学家来做这项工作。
But I feel like that's doable.
但我觉得这是可行的。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Conceptually, pieces of that are doable.
从概念上讲，其中一些部分是可行的。
I think, when you talk about can we basically image metabolism with cellular resolution?
我想，当你谈论我们基本上可以用细胞分辨率对新陈代谢进行成像吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
I should be clear, that's a very difficult problem.
我应该清楚，这是一个非常困难的问题。
The spatial resolution, the ability to see fine enough detail to make out individual cells or even smaller than that, that's a challenge.
空间分辨率，即看到足够精细的细节以辨认出单个细胞甚至更小的细胞的能力，这是一个挑战。
That's definitely a challenge inside a human body.
这绝对是人体内部的一个挑战。
And it's also a challenge to be able to have a surrogate of metabolism that we can actually see.
能够拥有我们实际看到的新陈代谢替代物也是一个挑战。
Of course, our metabolism, there's nothing visual that we can see with the naked eye.
当然，我们的新陈代谢，没有任何肉眼可以看到的东西。
Right?
正确的？
There's nothing I can see in the metabolism of a cell.
我在细胞的新陈代谢中看不到任何东西。
So what could we make that would enable us to visualize that?
那么我们可以做些什么来使我们能够想象这一点呢？
There's really exciting tools being developed of many different kinds to be able to image various features of metabolism in a cell.
许多不同类型的工具正在开发中，这些工具确实令人兴奋，能够对细胞中新陈代谢的各种特征进行成像。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, in neuroscience, again, I was fortunate to be part of this wave of technology.
嗯，在神经科学领域，我很幸运能够成为这股技术浪潮的一部分。
Didn't contribute to building any of it, but it was like, how do you know which brain areas are active?
没有为构建任何东西做出贡献，但就像，你怎么知道哪些大脑区域是活跃的？
Well, you could drop electrodes in or you could remove a piece and go, "Well, it probably did that when it was there because you lost that function."
好吧，你可以把电极放进去，或者你可以取下一块，然后说，“好吧，它可能会那样做，因为你失去了那个功能。”
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But a lot of it was just blood flow.
但其中很多只是血液流动。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was like oxygenated to deoxygenated blood reflects light differently.
就像含氧血液和脱氧血液反射光的方式不同一样。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you'd get these beautiful maps, but you were just looking at blood flow.
你会得到这些漂亮的地图，但你只是在观察血流。
Now, then you got 2-deoxyglucose.
现在，你得到了 2-脱氧葡萄糖。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can look at glucose uptake, but it was spatially very crude.
你可以观察葡萄糖的摄取，但它在空间上非常粗糙。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or the time resolution wasn't very good.
或者时间分辨率不是很好。
But I feel like we've come some way.
但我觉得我们已经取得了一些进展。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can look at voltage, you can look at calcium.
你可以看电压，你可以看钙。
I feel like the moment that chemists, bioengineers, and physicists and computers came into biology, things got a lot better.
我觉得化学家、生物工程师、物理学家和计算机进入生物学的那一刻，事情就变得好多了。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some people say it got a lot worse.
有人说情况变得更糟了。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But they've retired now.
但他们现在已经退休了。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, it got a lot better because you could see what's really happening.
所以，情况变得好多了，因为你可以看到到底发生了什么。
Maybe I'm overly optimistic.
也许我过于乐观了。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah, no. I think that we need to be able to figure out what to measure.
是的，不。我认为我们需要能够弄清楚要衡量什么。
That's obviously a key thing.
这显然是一件关键的事情。
What would be the metabolic parameter?
代谢参数是什么？
What would be the one metabolic parameter you'd really want to measure to assess, is this cell healthy or not healthy?
您真正想要测量以评估的一个代谢参数是什么？该细胞是否健康？
And it's hard to know exactly what that one thing would be.
很难确切地知道那一件事是什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or a collection.
或者一个集合。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Or a collection of things.
或者是一些东西的集合。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
And then figure out a way to measure that noninvasively, so to speak.
然后找到一种非侵入性测量的方法，可以这么说。
It's one thing if I'm going to measure that, do I have to cut off my arm?
如果我要测量它是一回事，我是否必须切断我的手臂？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No.
不。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Shave it into slices and measure it.
将其切成片并测量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Nobody wants that.
没有人想要这样。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Nobody wants that.
没有人想要这样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
So how can I measure it without doing damage to me while I'm measuring it?
那么如何在测量时不对我造成伤害呢？
These are hard problems.
这些都是难题。
But as you say, the technology just keeps getting better in all versions of this.
但正如你所说，这项技术在所有版本中都在不断进步。
And the experimental tools, the tools that we can use in mice or in cells in culture, are definitely getting better, and that's an aspect of this field of studying metabolism that's really exciting, is our ability to now be able to measure what's happening at individual places in individual cells and looking at specific individual molecules, intermediates and products and substrates of this metabolic map.
实验工具，我们可以在小鼠或培养细胞中使用的工具，肯定会变得更好，这是代谢研究领域真正令人兴奋的一个方面，我们现在能够测量单个细胞中各个位置发生的情况，并查看该代谢图谱的特定单个分子、中间体、产物和底物。
And that, I think, is teaching us a lot about how metabolism works in individual cells, and that is then going to be informative when we think about how it's working in a human.
我认为，这教会了我们很多关于新陈代谢如何在单个细胞中发挥作用的知识，当我们思考新陈代谢如何在人体中发挥作用时，这将为我们提供丰富的信息。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm intrigued by this really wild thing that you see in the news every once in a while, which I believe to be true, but no one can explain, which is that there are dogs, and there are occasionally people who can detect the scent of cancer beyond chance.
我对你偶尔在新闻中看到的这种非常疯狂的事情很感兴趣，我相信这是真的，但没有人能解释，那就是有狗，而且偶尔有人能够超越偶然地察觉到癌症的气味。
No one really knows the basis of this.
没有人真正了解其基础。
And recently, there's an example, my understanding is it's validated, of a woman who was able to smell Parkinson's as a musty scent.
最近，有一个例子，我的理解是它是有效的，一位女士能够闻到帕金森病的霉味。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Musky, excuse me.
马斯基，对不起。
And now spouses of people that had Parkinson's, and particularly the female, the wives of these men, like, "Oh, yeah, I remember this now." Of course, there's a whole lot of placebo correlation-
现在，帕金森病患者的配偶，尤其是女性，这些男人的妻子，就像，“哦，是的，我现在记得这个了。”当然，安慰剂有很多相关性——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
just so story that can emerge from that.
正是这样的故事可以从中出现。
But as you're telling me some of this, obviously you wouldn't want this to be the one and only frontline detection system, but it kind of makes sense that if cellular metabolism is at the heart of certain cancers or neurodegenerative conditions, it makes sense that we're breathing out-
但正如你告诉我的一些内容，显然你不希望这是唯一的前线检测系统，但如果细胞代谢是某些癌症或神经退行性疾病的核心，那么我们呼吸是有道理的-
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the byproducts.
副产品。
Obviously, these scents are just correlative, right?
显然，这些气味只是相关的，对吧？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the shifts in movies with infants, parents are remarkably good at being like, "Something's off."
对于婴儿电影中的转变，父母非常擅长说“有些事情不对劲”。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because they can't communicate verbally with us yet, right?
因为他们还不能和我们进行口头交流，对吗？
Something's off in their stool, or something's off in their skin pallor that's not extreme, and become remarkably astute at detecting real underlying issues.
他们的粪便中有什么问题，或者他们的皮肤苍白中有什么问题，但并不极端，并且在发现真正的潜在问题方面变得非常敏锐。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So do you think that there could be useful information coming from the air we expel-
那么你认为我们排出的空气中可能有有用的信息吗？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in terms of revealing at a systemic level, or maybe even at a cellular level, how well or poorly we're regulating energy?
在系统水平上，甚至在细胞水平上，揭示我们对能量的调节有多好或多差？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Obviously, as you said in alluding to this, this is, again, at the frontier of science, and I don't think we understand much of the specifics.
显然，正如您在提到这一点时所说的那样，这又处于科学的前沿，我认为我们并不了解很多细节。
But I think you could imagine that because, again, smells, scents are chemistry, right?
但我想你可以想象，因为，再说一次，气味、气味是化学，对吧？
These are chemical compounds that are coming from ...
这些化合物来自...
the person.
这个人。
And when a person's doing different metabolism, they're going to be producing different chemicals in different proportions.
当一个人进行不同的新陈代谢时，他们会产生不同比例的不同化学物质。
And I think it is possible that those can be detected in specific ways.
我认为这些可能可以通过特定的方式检测到。
That's not so dissimilar from some of the diagnostics that we do use, where we actually measure the blood chemistry.
这与我们实际使用的一些诊断方法没有太大不同，我们实际上测量血液化学成分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
The blood chemistry is different between people that have different diseases and don't.
患有不同疾病的人和没有患有不同疾病的人之间的血液化学成分是不同的。
And obviously, the breath is some measure of the chemistry that's going on in the person.
显然，呼吸是人体内发生的化学反应的某种衡量标准。
It's obviously different from the blood, but it's a fascinating topic.
它与血液明显不同，但却是一个令人着迷的话题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
And as that gets to chemical specificity, it'll become probably more clear what's going on there and why.
当涉及到化学特异性时，可能会更加清楚那里发生了什么以及为什么。
Why is Parkinson's specifically susceptible to-
为什么帕金森病特别容易受到——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
...
...
that different chemistry in a way that can be detected by scent?
那种不同的化学反应可以通过气味检测到吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We were talking a few moments ago about excess energy toxicity.
刚才我们正在谈论能量过剩的毒性。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is something that Dr. Layne Norton brought up on this podcast.
这是莱恩·诺顿博士在这个播客中提出的。
He's a serious biochemist, nutrition, exercise science guy, public educator, loves randomized control trials and meta-analyses.
他是一位认真的生物化学家、营养学、运动科学专家、公共教育家，喜欢随机对照试验和荟萃分析。
That's like his...
这就像他的...
If it's not there, he's not interested, or he's perfectly interested in tossing away everything else.
如果它不存在，他就不感兴趣，或者他非常有兴趣扔掉其他所有东西。
So that's kind of his hallmark.
这就是他的标志。
So that should feel good to you-
所以这对你来说应该感觉很好-
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
just knowing that.
只是知道这一点。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But he talks about this energy toxicity, like excess calories leads to problems, not just because of the presence of excess body fat, but because of just too much energy at the front end creates downstream biochemical issues across the body.
但他谈到了这种能量毒性，就像过量的卡路里会导致问题一样，不仅因为体内脂肪过多，而且因为前端过多的能量会导致全身下游的生化问题。
How does this relate to some of what we've been discussing?
这与我们一直在讨论的一些内容有何关系？
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
There's a widely accepted hypothesis that mitochondria with excess energy leads to problems.
有一个广泛接受的假设，即线粒体能量过剩会导致问题。
Many people that are listening have probably heard of reactive oxygen species.
许多听众可能听说过活性氧。
This is forms of oxygen that become reactive and end up spinning out and damaging proteins and nucleic acids.
这是氧气的形式，会变得活跃并最终旋转并破坏蛋白质和核酸。
And I think it is, again, widely accepted, not universally, but widely accepted, that one of the contributors to that is mitochondria that have too much energy.
我认为，这再次被广泛接受，虽然不是普遍接受，但已被广泛接受，其中的贡献者之一是能量过多的线粒体。
Basically, the form that energy takes when it's extracted from the food we eat and before it's converted to ATP, is powering the mitochondria.
基本上，从我们吃的食物中提取能量并在转化为 ATP 之前所采取的能量形式为线粒体提供动力。
And when that mitochondria is overpowered, that leads to a state that is very susceptible to generation of these reactive species that end up damaging our genome, creating mutations and damaging proteins, and creating many of the problems that we see.
当线粒体被压倒时，就会导致一种非常容易产生这些活性物质的状态，这些活性物质最终会破坏我们的基因组，产生突变和破坏蛋白质，并造成我们看到的许多问题。
And I think there's been a number of studies that have suggested they might contribute to various pathologies, including aging.
我认为有许多研究表明它们可能会导致各种病症，包括衰老。
So I think that idea of excess energy is one that is really important to consider from the level of the organism down to the level of individual cells and even the mitochondria within those cells.
因此，我认为能量过剩的概念是一个非常重要的概念，从生物体水平到单个细胞甚至这些细胞内的线粒体水平。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Once again, I'm thinking about this notion like, no individual or collection of individuals or cell or collection of cells can really get away with...
我再一次思考这个概念，比如，没有任何个人或个人集合或细胞或细胞集合可以真正逃脱......
Well, what's the saying?
嗯，这句话怎么说来着？
Like you pay the piper somehow.
就像你以某种方式付钱给风笛手一样。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Cells really get punished for cheating themselves-
细胞确实因为欺骗自己而受到惩罚——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
by taking too much energy or not allocating it correctly.
消耗过多能量或未正确分配能量。
You can level up from this like single-cell analysis all the way to societies, I actually think.
我实际上认为，你可以从单细胞分析一直升级到社会。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is fascinating for a variety of reasons.
由于多种原因，这很有趣。
First of all, again, we've never had a serious discussion about what mitochondria actually do besides just help create energy.
首先，我们从来没有认真讨论过线粒体除了帮助产生能量之外实际上还能做什么。
So first of all, thank you so much for telling us how they actually allocate their resources towards things other than just making more energy for usage to build more of oneself.
首先，非常感谢您告诉我们他们实际上如何将资源分配到其他事情上，而不仅仅是制造更多的精力来建立更多的自我。
Also, for framing that in the context of disease and health, and also for shining a light on the fact that while we might be right here now, that I do think, I'll just say what maybe you were trying to say but are too humble to say that, I think as long as we're looking at things just like, "Oh, this is a cancer of this tissue," and not actually asking what specifically is happening to the cells there that might be common to other cancers elsewhere, and like changing our nomenclature and boundaries of how we classify things, opening up our minds to it.
另外，为了在疾病和健康的背景下阐述这一点，也为了阐明这样一个事实：虽然我们现在可能就在这里，但我确实认为，我只想说你可能想说的话，但我太谦虚了，不能这么说，我认为只要我们关注类似“哦，这是这个组织的癌症”之类的事情，而不是真正询问那里的细胞具体发生了什么，这可能是其他地方癌症常见的情况，就像改变我们的命名法和边界一样我们如何对事物进行分类，向它敞开心扉。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As well as really thinking about the whole body as a constellation of these little microfactories that is us.
以及真正将整个身体视为这些小微工厂的星座，即我们。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I am certain that people hearing this will no longer think about metabolism just as them, my metabolism, but this constellation of metabolisms and the health status of all the different cells.
我确信听到这个的人们将不再像他们一样思考新陈代谢，我的新陈代谢，而是新陈代谢的星座和所有不同细胞的健康状态。
So it goes without saying that it's a really unique opportunity for the general public to hear from a world-class biologist working on these specific issues and related issues for decades now, right?
因此，不用说，对于公众来说，这是一个真正独特的机会，可以听到几十年来致力于这些具体问题和相关问题的世界级生物学家的演讲，对吗？
And you're a very busy person, so I'm very grateful to you, to the University of Utah for allowing and encouraging public education, to Howard Hughes.
你是一个非常忙碌的人，所以我非常感谢你，感谢犹他大学允许和鼓励公共教育，感谢霍华德休斯。
No, they didn't tell me to say this, but- ...
不，他们没有让我这么说，但是——
I think people really need to understand what an amazing opportunity is to learn from people.
我认为人们确实需要了解向他人学习的绝佳机会。
And there are others in the field, you're so good at attribution, who are really trying to figure out these really hard problems in biology that are crucial to health and to disease, and therefore to curing disease, and really trying to move things forward in your workshop that you call-
这个领域还有其他人，你很擅长归因，他们真的在努力解决生物学中的这些非常困难的问题，这些问题对健康和疾病至关重要，因此对治愈疾病至关重要，并且真正努力在你所谓的研讨会上推动事情向前发展——
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a laboratory.
一个实验室。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you don't have to do this sort of thing, but I greatly appreciate it, and I speak on behalf of many, many people who really appreciate it.
所以你不必做这种事情，但我非常欣赏它，我代表很多很多真正欣赏它的人发言。
There's information, and then there's superb information, so thank you so much.
有信息，而且有很棒的信息，非常感谢。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Thanks, Andrew.
谢谢，安德鲁。
It's been a lot of fun.
这很有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We'll do it again.
我们会再做一次。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Anytime.
任何时候。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Cheers.
干杯。
Dr. Jared Rutter:
贾里德·鲁特博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Jared Rutter.
感谢您参加今天与 Jared Rutter 博士的讨论。
To learn more about his work, please see the links in the show note caption.
要了解有关他的作品的更多信息，请参阅演出注释标题中的链接。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的关注按钮来关注播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。
And you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.
您现在可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客或嘉宾有意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑的主题，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这本书是我花了五年多时间编写的，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验。
And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
它涵盖了从睡眠到运动再到压力控制的所有协议，以及与注意力和动机相关的协议，当然，我为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." And if you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。
So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。
Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
同样，所有社交媒体平台上都是 Huberman Lab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available completely zero cost.
所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件即可。
And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Jared Rutter.
再次感谢您参加今天与 Jared Rutter 博士的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。