How Hormones & Status Shape Our Values & Decisions | Dr. Michael Platt

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

My guest today is Dr. Michael Platt.

今天我的客人是迈克尔·普拉特博士。

Dr. Michael Platt is a professor of neuroscience and psychology at the University of Pennsylvania.

迈克尔·普拉特博士是宾夕法尼亚大学神经科学和心理学教授。

His laboratory focuses on decision-making, more specifically, how we make decisions and the impact of power dynamics, such as hierarchies in a given organization or group, as well as hormones on decision-making.

他的实验室专注于决策，更具体地说，我们如何做出决策以及权力动态的影响，例如给定组织或团体中的层次结构，以及决策中的激素。

We also discuss valuation, that is, how we place value on things, on people, and what you'll find is that there are many factors that impact whether or not we think something is good, very good, bad, or very bad, that operate below our conscious awareness.

我们还讨论了估值，即我们如何评价事物、人的价值，你会发现有很多因素影响着我们认为某件事是好、非常好、坏还是非常坏，这些因素在我们的意识之下运作。

In fact, today's discussion will teach you how you make decisions, how to make better decisions in the context of everything from picking out a watch or a pair of shoes, all the way up to something as important as picking a life mate.

事实上，今天的讨论将教你如何做出决定，如何在从挑选一块手表或一双鞋子，一直到选择一个生活伴侣这样重要的事情上做出更好的决定。

Indeed, hormones, hierarchies, and specific things that are operating within you and adjacent to, nearby the things that you're evaluating, whether or not those things are people or objects, are powerfully shaping the neural circuits that lead you to make specific decisions.

事实上，荷尔蒙、等级制度和在你体内以及与你正在评估的事物相邻的特定事物，无论这些事物是人还是物体，都在强有力地塑造神经回路，引导你做出特定的决定。

So today you're going to learn how all of that works and, as I mentioned, how to make better decisions.

因此，今天您将了解所有这些是如何运作的，以及正如我提到的，如何做出更好的决策。

Dr. Platt also explains how we are evaluating the hormone levels of other people, both same sex and opposite sex, and the implications that has for relationships of all kinds.

普拉特博士还解释了我们如何评估其他人（同性和异性）的激素水平，以及它对各种关系的影响。

It's an incredibly interesting and unique conversation.

这是一次非常有趣且独特的对话。

Certainly unique among the conversations I've had with any of my neuroscience colleagues over the decades, and I know that the information you're going to learn today is going to be both fascinating to you, it certainly was to me, and that it will impact the way that you think about all decisions at every level in everyday life.

这在我几十年来与神经科学同事进行的对话中无疑是独一无二的，我知道你今天要学习的信息对你和我来说都会很有趣，而且它将影响你在日常生活中各个层面上思考所有决策的方式。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。

In keeping with that theme, this episode does include sponsors.

为了与这个主题保持一致，这一集确实有赞助商。

And now for my discussion with Dr. Michael Platt.

现在我与迈克尔·普拉特博士进行了讨论。

Dr. Michael Platt, welcome.

迈克尔·普拉特博士，欢迎光临。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Thanks.

谢谢。

It's awesome to be here.

来到这里真是太棒了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I've been following your work since I was a graduate student, and it's really interesting.

我从研究生时期就开始关注你的工作，它真的很有趣。

You're an anthropologist by training, turned neuroscientist, turned practical applications of neuroscience and related fields to everybody as it relates to business, decision-making, social interactions, hormones.

你是一位经过训练的人类学家，后来成为神经科学家，将神经科学和相关领域的实际应用转向每个人，因为它与商业、决策、社交互动、激素有关。

You've worked on a lot of different things.

你从事过很多不同的事情。

The first question I have is, let's all agree, we're old world primates.

我的第一个问题是，我们都同意，我们是旧世界的灵长类动物。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right?

对吗？

Most people don't even think of us as old world primates, but we are all old world primates, and we share many similarities in terms of the neural circuits that we have in our skulls with some of the other old world primates, like macaque monkeys-

大多数人甚至不认为我们是旧世界灵长类动物，但我们都是旧世界灵长类动物，而且我们头骨中的神经回路与其他一些旧世界灵长类动物（例如猕猴）有许多相似之处 -

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

for instance.

例如。

When you step back and look at a process like decision-making or marketing out in the world, or how people interact with one another and gauge value of objects, relationships, or even their own value-

当你退后一步，看看世界上的决策或营销等过程，或者人们如何彼此互动并衡量物体、关系甚至他们自己的价值时——

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

if I may, how much of what you see in human old world primates do you think is reflected by the interactions of old world primates like rhesus macaque monkeys and vice versa?

如果可以的话，您认为您在旧世界人类灵长类动物中看到的东西有多少是通过恒河猴等旧世界灵长类动物的相互作用反映出来的，反之亦然？

I mean, in other words, how primitive are we and/or how sophisticated are the other old world primates?

换句话说，我的意思是，我们有多原始和/或其他旧世界灵长类动物有多复杂？

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

That's a great way of putting it, because I think it's both.

这是一个很好的表达方式，因为我认为两者兼而有之。

I always like to say there's a little monkey in all of us, right?

我总是喜欢说我们每个人心中都有一只小猴子，对吗？

And I believed that going in, having spent actually my formative years just watching monkeys.

我相信这一点，因为我的成长岁月实际上就是在观察猴子。

And I worked at the Cleveland Zoo when I was in college, and I took every opportunity I could get to go.

我大学时在克利夫兰动物园工作，我抓住一切可能去的机会。

I went to the field.

我去了田野。

I watched monkeys in South America and in Mexico.

我在南美洲和墨西哥观察了猴子。

And I think we all get that, but over the course of my career, I'm astonished at how deep that goes.

我想我们都明白这一点，但在我的职业生涯中，我对它的深度感到惊讶。

And basically, for every behavioral, cognitive, emotional phenomenon that we've trained our lens on, it looks almost exactly the same in people and monkeys.

基本上，对于我们用镜头训练的每一种行为、认知、情感现象，它在人和猴子身上看起来几乎完全相同。

Now, obviously, we're not just monkeys, and we can talk, and we're doing this, and that's a big, big difference.

现在，显然，我们不仅仅是猴子，我们可以说话，我们正在这样做，这是一个很大很大的区别。

But all the things that you talked about, decision-making, social interaction, the way that we explore the world, the fountain of creativity, not only the neural circuits, but the actual expression is so similar.

但是你谈到的所有事情，决策、社交、我们探索世界的方式、创造力的源泉，不仅是神经回路，而且实际的表达都是如此相似。

We have monkeys and people do the exact same things in the lab, and if I didn't label the videos, the outputs of the avatars and whatnot in games, you couldn't tell the difference.

我们让猴子和人在实验室里做完全相同的事情，如果我没有给视频、化身的输出以及游戏中的东西贴上标签，你就无法分辨出区别。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Hmm.

嗯。

What's striking about what you just said is that I recall, I guess at that time it was called a tweet- ...

你刚才说的话令人震惊的是，我记得，我猜当时它被称为推文——......

and I think it was from Elon, that said that we're basically a species that got a supercomputer placed on top of a monkey brain.

我想是埃隆说的，我们基本上是一个在猴脑上安装了超级计算机的物种。

So in thinking about it the other way, what aspects of being human, this old world primate-

所以换个角度思考，作为人类，这个旧世界的灵长类动物有哪些方面——

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

that we are, do you think is distinctly different than, say, a macaque monkey, aside from language?

你认为除了语言之外，我们与猕猴有明显不同吗？

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

I don't know that anything really is.

我不知道有什么是真的。

So actually, it's an interesting time to have you ask me that question, because this spring semester, I teach a seminar for the psychology department at Penn called Being Human, and the whole idea of that, each week, we tackle an aspect of who we are that has at one point or another, been considered to be uniquely human or close to, right?

所以实际上，现在让你问我这个问题是一个有趣的时刻，因为今年春季学期，我在宾夕法尼亚大学心理学系教授了一个名为“成为人类”的研讨会，整个想法是，每周，我们都会解决我们是谁的一个方面，在某个时刻，被认为是独特的人类或接近人类，对吗？

And that could be something like art and creativity or theory of mind, right?

这可能是艺术和创造力或心理理论之类的东西，对吗？

Or economics and markets and things like that.

或者经济和市场之类的东西。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And when you take a look at these things through the lenses of neuroscience and anthropology, this is how we do it, economics, psychology, neurology, and on and on and on, you start to really see that there's a lot more continuity than discontinuity, and that's pretty shocking.

当你通过神经科学和人类学的视角来看待这些事情时，这就是我们做事的方式，经济学、心理学、神经学等等，你开始真正看到连续性比不连续性要多得多，这是相当令人震惊的。

And I want to go back to that Elon tweet if I may because I think that's where we go a little bit astray, too, in thinking about the brain as a computer.

如果可以的话，我想回到埃隆的推文上，因为我认为这也是我们在将大脑视为一台计算机时有点误入歧途的地方。

Right?

正确的？

So obviously it's not built on silica.

很明显它不是建立在二氧化硅上的。

It's made of meat and fat, and it's subject to all of the constraints that go along with that.

它是由肉和脂肪制成的，并且受到随之而来的所有限制。

And what I think instead is a better metaphor is that we've got a 30-million-year-old Swiss Army knife in our heads, right?

我认为更好的比喻是，我们脑子里插着一把 3000 万年前的瑞士军刀，对吧？

So yes, you can learn how to do all kinds of different things, but you've got a brain that's got essentially specific tools in it.

所以，是的，你可以学习如何做各种不同的事情，但你的大脑本质上有特定的工具。

It's like having a knife and a corkscrew, which is the most important one, nail file, saw, et cetera, and monkeys got those, too.

就像有一把刀和一个开瓶器，这是最重要的，指甲锉，锯子等等，猴子也有这些。

Now, ours might be a little bigger and sharper, but they look pretty similar, and they do the job in a very similar way.

现在，我们的可能更大更锋利一些，但它们看起来非常相似，并且以非常相似的方式完成工作。

And I think once we appreciate that, then that opens up a lot of territory for applications.

我认为一旦我们认识到这一点，就会为应用开辟很多领域。

Not just trying to understand how some of those tools might get broken or dull as a result of illness or injury or disorders, et cetera, but also how we can measure them and how we can develop them better because some of those we use all the time, say, in business.

不仅要了解其中一些工具如何因疾病、受伤或紊乱等原因而损坏或变钝，还要了解我们如何衡量它们以及如何更好地开发它们，因为其中一些工具是我们一直在使用的，例如在商业中。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Our Place.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商“我们的地方”。

Our Place makes my favorite pots, pans, and other cookware.

我们的地方生产我最喜欢的锅、平底锅和其他炊具。

Surprisingly, toxic compounds such as PFAS or forever chemicals are still found in 80% of non-stick pans, as well as utensils, appliances, and countless other kitchen products.

令人惊讶的是，80% 的不粘锅以及餐具、电器和无数其他厨房产品中仍然含有 PFAS 或永久化学物质等有毒化合物。

Now, I've talked before on this podcast about these PFAS or forever chemicals like Teflon, which have been linked to major health issues such as hormone disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems.

现在，我之前在这个播客中谈到过这些 PFAS 或特氟龙等永久性化学物质，它们与激素破坏、肠道微生物组破坏、生育问题和许多其他健康问题等重大健康问题有关。

So it's really important to avoid them.

因此，避免它们非常重要。

This is why I'm a huge fan of Our Place.

这就是为什么我是《我们的地方》的超级粉丝。

Our Place products are made with the highest quality materials and are all PFAS and toxin-free.

我们的 Place 产品采用最优质的材料制成，不含 PFAS 和毒素。

I particularly love their Titanium Always Pan Pro.

我特别喜欢他们的 Titanium Always Pan Pro。

It's the first non-stick pan made with zero chemicals and zero coating.

这是第一个采用零化学品和零涂层制成的不粘锅。

Instead, it uses pure titanium.

相反，它使用纯钛。

This means it has no harmful forever chemicals, and it also doesn't degrade or lose its non-stick effect over time.

这意味着它不含永久有害的化学物质，并且不会随着时间的推移而降解或失去不粘效果。

It's extremely durable, and it's also beautiful to look at.

它非常耐用，而且看起来也很漂亮。

I cook eggs in my Titanium Always Pan Pro almost every morning.

我几乎每天早上都会用 Titanium Always Pan Pro 煮鸡蛋。

The design allows for the eggs to cook perfectly without sticking to the pan.

该设计使鸡蛋能够完美烹饪而不会粘在锅上。

I also cook burgers and steaks in it, and it puts a really nice sear on the meat.

我还用它来做汉堡和牛排，它给肉带来了非常好的烤焦效果。

But again, nothing sticks to the pan, so it's really easy to clean, and it's even dishwasher safe.

但同样，锅上不会粘任何东西，因此非常容易清洁，甚至可用洗碗机清洗。

I love it, and I use it every day.

我喜欢它，并且每天都使用它。

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Our Place 限时提供 Titanium Always Pan Pro 20% 的独家折扣。

If you go to the website fromourplace.com/huberman and use the code SAVEHUBERMAN20, you can claim the offer.

如果您访问网站 fromourplace.com/huberman 并使用代码 SAVEHUBERMAN20，则可以领取优惠。

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通过 100 天无风险试用、免费送货和免费退货，您可以在绝对零风险的情况下体验这款出色的炊具。

Again, that's fromourplace.com/huberman to get 20% off.

再次强调，来自ourplace.com/huberman 可以享受 20% 的折扣。

Today's episode is also brought to us by Wealthfront.

今天的节目也是由 Wealthfront 为我们带来的。

I've been using Wealthfront for my savings and my investing for nearly a decade, and I absolutely love it.

近十年来，我一直使用 Wea​​lthfront 进行储蓄和投资，我非常喜欢它。

At the start of every year, I set new goals, and one of my goals for 2025 is to focus on saving money.

每年年初，我都会设定新的目标，2025 年的目标之一就是专注于省钱。

Since I have Wealthfront, I'll keep that savings in my Wealthfront cash account where I'm able to earn 4% annual percentage yield on my deposits, and you can as well.

由于我拥有 Wealthfront，我会将这笔储蓄保留在我的 Wealthfront 现金账户中，这样我就可以通过存款赚取 4% 的年收益率，您也可以。

With Wealthfront, you can earn 4% APY on your cash from partner banks until you're ready to either spend that money or invest it.

通过 Wealthfront，您可以从合作银行获得 4% 的现金年化收益，直到您准备好花掉这些钱或进行投资。

With Wealthfront, you also get free instant withdrawals to eligible accounts every day, even on weekends and holidays.

通过Wealthfront，您还可以每天免费即时提款到符合条件的账户，即使在周末和节假日也是如此。

The 4% APY is not a promotional rate, and there's no limit to what you can deposit and earn.

4% 年利率并非促销利率，您可以存款和赚取的金额没有限制。

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Wealthfront 为您提供免费即时提款，只需几分钟即可将您的资金转入符合条件的外部账户。

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已有一百万人使用 Wea​​lthfront 来储蓄更多、赚取更多并建立长期财富。

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今天就用现金赚取 4% 年化收益。

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现在就开始吧：www.realityfront.com/huberman。

This has been a paid testimonial of Wealthfront.

这是 Wealthfront 的付费推荐。

Wealthfront brokerage isn't a bank.

Wealthfront 经纪公司不是银行。

The APY is subject to change.

APY 可能会发生变化。

For more information, see the episode description.

有关更多信息，请参阅剧集描述。

So if we were to start at what us neuroscientists would call more low-level functioning, even though it's pretty high level, with something like attention.

因此，如果我们从神经科学家所说的低级功能开始，即使它的级别相当高，比如注意力。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

We are very visual creatures, for those of us that are sighted.

对于我们这些有视力的人来说，我们是视觉动物。

Most humans are sighted.

大多数人都是有视力的。

Yeah.

是的。

We rely on vision to assess the world around us, to assess emotions of others, et cetera, and so are the other old world primates.

我们依靠视觉来评估周围的世界，评估他人的情绪等等，其他旧世界的灵长类动物也是如此。

Yeah.

是的。

Right?

正确的？

How do we allocate attention?

我们如何分配注意力？

What grabs our attention?

什么吸引了我们的注意力？

And maybe in this discussion, we could also touch on, because I know you've worked on this, what underlies some deficits in attention.

也许在这次讨论中，我们还可以触及一些注意力缺陷的根源，因为我知道你已经在这方面做了工作。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

So yeah, if we could just explore this from the perspective of, okay, you go into an environment, let's say it's a familiar environment.

所以，是的，如果我们可以从这样的角度来探索这个问题，好吧，你进入一个环境，假设这是一个熟悉的环境。

You wake up in the room you wake up in each day.

您在每天醒来的房间里醒来。

What grabs your attention?

什么吸引了你的注意力？

What keeps your attention?

是什么吸引了你的注意力？

And if we do in fact have control over our attention, which we do to some extent, why is it so difficult for many of us to decide, "You know what?

如果我们确实能够控制自己的注意力（在某种程度上我们确实做到了），那么为什么我们中的许多人很难做出这样的决定：“你知道吗？

I'm just going to put everything away, and I'm just going to focus on this task for the next hour"?

我要把所有东西都收起来，然后在接下来的一个小时里专注于这项任务”？

Why is that so challenging for so many people Regardless of whether they have a diagnosis of attention deficit-

为什么这对这么多人来说如此具有挑战性，无论他们是否被诊断出注意力缺陷 -

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

hyperactivity disorder.

多动症。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Okay, there's a lot in that question.

好吧，这个问题有很多内容。

Many questions in there.

里面有很多问题。

And let's talk about what attention is, right?

我们来谈谈什么是注意力，对吧？

It is a prioritization, or an amplification of what you're focusing on.

这是一个优先级，或者是你所关注的事情的放大。

And we do that by where we point our eyes.

我们通过目光所指的地方来做到这一点。

And then that, it gets turned up in the brain with a lot of consequences.

然后，它就会出现在大脑中，并产生很多后果。

And really why do we have attention?

到底为什么我们会受到关注？

Because you can't do everything at once, right?

因为你不能同时做所有的事情，对吧？

So it's in the name of efficiency.

所以这是以效率的名义。

What we attend to is a product of two things.

我们关注的是两件事的产物。

It's what we're looking for and what the world looks like.

这就是我们正在寻找的东西，也是世界的样子。

Right?

正确的？

And that kind of what the world looks like part is importantly shaped by what our ancestors experienced and also what we experienced when we were developing, when we were growing up.

世界的样子在很大程度上是由我们的祖先所经历的以及我们在发展和成长过程中所经历的所塑造的。

So things that are bright or shiny or moving fast, or loud or whatever, that grabs our attention.

因此，明亮、闪亮、快速移动、响亮或其他什么东西都会吸引我们的注意力。

Things that stand out, that are different.

突出的事物、与众不同的事物。

And for us as primates, one thing that's super important and kind of really deeply baked in is other people.

对于我们灵长类动物来说，最重要且根深蒂固的一件事就是其他人。

So if there are faces, if there are people in the environment doing something, then that naturally just grabs our attention unless we happen to be an individual who's sort of wired a little bit differently, like folks on the autism spectrum disorder or schizophrenia, things like that, where that prioritization is not quite the same.

因此，如果有面孔，如果环境中有人在做某事，那么这自然会吸引我们的注意力，除非我们碰巧是一个性格有点不同的人，比如患有自闭症谱系障碍或精神分裂症的人，诸如此类，优先顺序并不完全相同。

So that's kind of how our experience as primates, and just the design principles of the way our brains work to overcome some of these limitations in the name of efficiency come about.

这就是我们作为灵长类动物的经历，也是我们大脑以效率的名义克服一些限制的设计原则。

And then, as you mentioned, what we can control our attention to a certain degree.

然后，正如你提到的，我们可以在一定程度上控制我们的注意力。

And that's super important for a lot of, I think, overcoming a lot of the challenges that we have, and we can talk about that, like in decision making, for example, or learning, because you can't control what you're attending to.

我认为，这对于克服我们面临的许多挑战来说非常重要，我们可以谈论这一点，例如在决策或学习中，因为你无法控制你正在关注的事情。

That gets turned up in the brain, and that affects what we choose, and it affects what we learn, it affects what we remember as well.

它会出现在大脑中，影响我们的选择，影响我们学到的东西，也会影响我们记住的东西。

So now I'm trying to kind of go back to then the end part of your question.

所以现在我想回到你问题的最后部分。

Oh, so that had to do with multitasking or just things in the environment.

哦，所以这与多任务处理或环境中的事物有关。

And that gets at this question, or topic of, in my view, of foraging.

这涉及到这个问题，或者在我看来，关于觅食的话题。

Right?

正确的？

And so, I think that attention, this is the argument we've made, operates according to essentially the same rules and principles that our bodies do when we are searching the environment for resources.

因此，我认为，这就是我们提出的论点，注意力的运作基本上与我们的身体在环境中寻找资源时所遵循的规则和原则相同。

So all mobile animals search for food, search for mates, search for water, for the resources that they need to survive and to reproduce and, as it turns out, that kind of decision, that The Clash made very memorable, should I stay or should I go?

因此，所有移动动物都会寻找食物、寻找伴侣、寻找水、寻找生存和繁殖所需的资源，而事实证明，《冲突》做出的这种决定非常令人难忘，我应该留下还是应该离开？

That's the key thing.

这是关键。

So when you encounter something, the question is: Do I take it?

所以当你遇到某件事时，问题是：我接受吗？

Do I stick with it even though it might be depleting, getting worse?

即使它可能会耗尽、变得更糟，我是否还要坚持下去？

Or should I take a risk and invest time and energy and go look for something else?

或者我应该冒险并投入时间和精力去寻找其他东西？

All animals have to do that.

所有动物都必须这样做。

It turns out there's an optimal solution to that, which was written out by one of the great mathematical ecologists, Eric Charnov, in a paper in 1976.

事实证明，有一个最佳解决方案，由伟大的数学生态学家埃里克·查诺夫 (Eric Charnov) 在 1976 年的一篇论文中提出。

And so he wrote this out, and what's cool about it is it's very simple.

所以他写下了这篇文章，最酷的是它非常简单。

And it's basically, you leave, you abandon the thing that you're harvesting when what you're getting from it falls below the average for the environment.

基本上，当你从中得到的东西低于环境的平均水平时，你就离开了，你就放弃了你正在收获的东西。

It just makes sense, the marginal returns, right?

这是有道理的，边际回报，对吧？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And this could be a social interaction.

这可能是一种社交互动。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Could be a social interaction, it could be food, could be water, could be the money that you're making in the moment, could be the information that you're getting from a book or from a website or whatnot.

可能是社交互动，可能是食物，可能是水，可能是你当下赚到的钱，可能是你从书本或网站等中获得的信息。

From studies done over the last, whatever that is now, 50 years, have shown that every animal that's ever been observed behaves as if they're performing that computation.

从过去所做的研究来看，无论现在是 50 年，已经表明，每一种被观察到的动物的行为就好像它们正在执行这种计算一样。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Could you give an example in the context of, let's say, social media?

您能举一个社交媒体背景下的例子吗？

And as we were walking in to record today, we were comparing and contrasting X-

当我们今天走进录音室时，我们正在比较和对比 X-

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

as a platform versus Instagram, and it occurred to me now, based on what you said a few moments ago, that Instagram is very visual, so you see faces.

作为一个平台与 Instagram 的比较，根据你刚才所说，我现在想到 Instagram 非常视觉化，所以你可以看到面孔。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Many accounts on X, either the icon is so small-

X上的账号很多，要么图标太小——

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

or people even just have cartoons or whatever, avatars there that aren't really faces in many cases.

或者人们甚至只是有卡通或其他什么化身，在很多情况下并不是真正的面孔。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it does seem that on X, there's a kind of a elevated level of emotionality to what people write.

在 X 上，人们所写的内容似乎确实有一种高度的情感。

That's what tends to grab attention, and I wonder whether or not that's because of the absence of faces.

这就是吸引注意力的原因，我想知道这是否是因为没有面孔的缘故。

When somebody's on an Instagram post and they're kind of ranting a bit, in fact, I saw this yesterday, Tim Ferriss, another podcaster-

当有人在 Instagram 上发帖时，他们有点咆哮，事实上，我昨天看到了这一点，另一位播客蒂姆·费里斯 (Tim Ferriss) -

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

had the investor Chris Sacca on, and Chris was talking about environmentalism and the fires, and he had opinions about AI.

投资人克里斯·萨卡（Chris Sacca）在场，克里斯正在谈论环保主义和火灾，他对人工智能有看法。

He's a very smart, very opinionated guy, but people were commenting, I don't know how he felt, how could I?

他是一个非常聪明、非常固执己见的人，但人们在评论时，我不知道他的感受，我怎么能呢？

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But people were commenting, "He's so angry." And he was just being passionate and emphatic.

但人们评论说：“他太生气了。”他只是充满激情和强调。

Maybe he was angry, I don't know, but he was clearly very alert, leaning forward into the camera.

也许他很生气，我不知道，但他显然非常警惕，身体前倾对着镜头。

And most of their comments were paying attention to the emotion behind what he was saying.

他们的大部分评论都在关注他所说的话背后的情感。

And whereas on X, I feel like if you just took the text of what he was saying and you put it there, it would be kind of below the average emotionality on X.

而在 X 上，我觉得如果你只是把他所说的话放在那儿，它会低于 X 上的平均情绪。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And so, when you say that we are drawn to faces or that we naturally forge towards faces versus other things, that feels very true.

因此，当你说我们被面孔所吸引，或者我们自然而然地倾向于面孔而不是其他事物时，这感觉非常正确。

And do you feel like Elevated levels of emotion in faces are what harness the most attention.

你是否觉得面部表情的高涨是最能吸引注意力的？

And by parallel, if you get a bunch of monkeys together and one of them is really upset, do they all look at that monkey?

反过来，如果你把一群猴子聚集在一起，其中一只真的很沮丧，它们都会看那只猴子吗？

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Speculating a little bit here-

这里稍微推测一下——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah

是啊

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

...

...

since I've not thought about it in the context of, say, X versus Instagram.

因为我没有在 X 与 Instagram 的背景下考虑这个问题。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

But I think you're right on.

但我认为你是对的。

I think that's spot on.

我认为这是正确的。

You're just combining, the volume gets turned up because there are faces there, and if they're more emotional, they're just going to be much more salient and grab your attention.

你只是在组合，音量就会调大，因为那里有面孔，如果他们更加情绪化，他们就会更加突出并吸引你的注意力。

And that's something that's really important to pay attention to, because somebody who's very aroused, that's sort of pre-activation before they do something.

这是需要注意的非常重要的事情，因为对于那些非常兴奋的人来说，这是他们在做某事之前的预先激活。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

They might attack you, or they might take something from you.

他们可能会攻击你，或者他们可能会从你身上夺走一些东西。

Who knows, right?

谁知道，对吧？

Something could happen there.

那里可能会发生一些事情。

But I want to take this back a little bit.

但我想收回这一点。

I'm older than you, and I want to take this idea of different sources, like where you could place your attention, take it back a little bit more in time.

我比你年长，我想从不同的来源汲取这个想法，比如你可以把注意力放在哪里，及时收回一点。

Because what's been shown, and it's interesting, computer science picked up on this marginal value theorem from mathematical ecology around 2000 or so, and began to investigate how people searched the web.

正如所展示的那样，有趣的是，计算机科学在 2000 年左右从数学生态学中汲取了边际价值定理，并开始研究人们如何搜索网络。

And it turned out people would leave a website the moment their information intake rate fell below the average for all the websites that they were encountering.

事实证明，当人们的信息摄入率低于他们所访问的所有网站的平均水平时，他们就会离开网站。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The average is determined by your behavior in the what?

平均值是由你在什么方面的行为决定的？

The preceding bin of time, like 10 minutes until you arrive at a site or within site?

前一个时间段，例如您到达站点或站点内之前的 10 分钟？

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

So that's less well-known, but we're now learning that it is pretty short-term, right?

所以这不太为人所知，但我们现在了解到它是相当短期的，对吧？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

So, it seems to be driven by reinforcement learning processes that kind of are telling you how rich that environment is.

所以，它似乎是由强化学习过程驱动的，这种过程告诉你这个环境有多么丰富。

And so one of the things about the marginal value theorem I think is really profound for understanding our current predicament, is that it says that if you're in a really poor environment, let's say you forage for apples, right?

因此，我认为关于边际价值定理的一件事对于理解我们当前的困境非常深刻，它说，如果你处于一个非常贫穷的环境中，假设你在寻找苹果，对吗？

And there's one apple tree for the next 10 miles.

接下来 10 英里处有一棵苹果树。

You stay at that apple tree until you've picked every apple, rotten or not rotten, not ripe, right, before you move on.

你呆在那棵苹果树上，直到你摘完每一个苹果，不管是烂的还是没烂的，还没熟的，对吧，然后你就继续前进。

If you are in an orchard with apple trees everywhere, you just pick the ones that are easiest to get, and then you move on.

如果你在一个到处都是苹果树的果园里，你只需挑选最容易得到的，然后继续前进。

So now think about it in the context of web surfing, the web link.

现在在网上冲浪、网络链接的背景下考虑一下它。

If you're coming up when I did, I was in graduate school or as an undergraduate, the way I accessed the internet was through a dial-up modem.

如果你在我来的时候出现的话，我当时正在读研究生或作为一名本科生，我访问互联网的方式是通过拨号调制解调器。

So it was very slow.

所以速度非常慢。

It was a very poor environment.

那是一个非常恶劣的环境。

You're sitting there waiting for the information to load up, right?

您坐在那里等待信息加载，对吗？

And it might take 30 seconds or longer.

并且可能需要 30 秒或更长时间。

You don't abandon that.

你不会放弃那个。

You read the whole thing.

你读完了整篇文章。

You might print it out, put it in your file cabinet, right?

你可以把它打印出来，放在你的文件柜里，对吗？

Now you get super high-speed internet.

现在您可以享受超高速互联网。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, you can have 12 tabs open, 50 tabs open.

是的，您可以打开 12 个选项卡，也可以打开 50 个选项卡。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

And you're like, so you spend half a second or a couple of seconds on any one.

你就像，所以你花半秒或几秒钟在任何一个上。

You certainly don't scroll down beneath the fold, right?

您当然不会向下滚动到折叠下方，对吧？

So it totally makes sense.

所以这是完全有道理的。

Now think about all the devices you might have, or it could be tabs, it could be most people are sitting around with a TV on, their phone, a tablet, a laptop, whatnot.

现在想想你可能拥有的所有设备，或者可能是标签，也可能是大多数人坐在一起开着电视、手机、平板电脑、笔记本电脑等等。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, I'm guilty of having-

是的，我有罪——

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

And so what do you do?

那么你会做什么呢？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I have three phones and a laptop.

我有三部手机和一台笔记本电脑。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

So you're just cycling.

所以你只是骑自行车。

You are doing exactly what you're designed to do, right?

你正在做你应该做的事情，对吗？

Which is to move between these resources quickly and easily because it's so easy.

这就是在这些资源之间快速、轻松地移动，因为它是如此简单。

So, and some of that's going back to your question about why is it so hard, it's going to be really deliberate.

所以，其中一些又回到了你的问题，即为什么这么难，这将是经过深思熟虑的。

You have to either reduce, make it a harder environment, I guess is the idea.

你必须要么减少，要么让环境变得更困难，我想这就是想法。

You would have to actually put things away or make the return rate that you're getting from any of them much worse.

你实际上必须把东西收起来，或者让你从其中任何一个得到的回报率变得更糟。

Like for example, if you turn your phone monochrome, which we know works, right?

例如，如果你把手机变成单色，我们知道这是可行的，对吧？

It helps you to stop checking your phone and spend less time on it, because it's just not as good of a source.

它可以帮助您停止检查手机并减少在手机上花费的时间，因为它的来源不太好。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

The information feels really depleted.

The information feels really depleted.

You reposted a paper result recently, and I did as well after I saw it on your X account, that if you look at working memory, the ability to keep information online in real time and work with it, it seems that working memory is worst when your phone is right next to you.

你最近转发了一篇论文结果，我在你的 X 帐户上看到它后也做了同样的事情，如果你看看工作记忆，实时在线保存信息并使用它的能力，那么当你的手机就在你旁边时，工作记忆似乎是最差的。

If it's somewhere else in the room that you're working, or trying to do real work of some sort, your performance is slightly better than if it's right next to you.

如果您正在房间的其他地方工作，或者尝试做某种实际工作，那么您的表现会比在您旁边的情况稍好一些。

But if the phone is completely outside of the room, improvements in working memory are statistically significant.

但如果手机完全不在房间外，工作记忆的改善在统计上是显着的。

In other words, get the phone completely out of the room.

换句话说，将手机完全移出房间。

It's not sufficient to have it next to you turned face down or even in your backpack behind you.

将其面朝下放置在您旁边或什至放在您身后的背包中是不够的。

It needs to be in a completely separate environment in order to maximize this effect.

它需要处于完全独立的环境中才能最大限度地发挥这种效果。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

I mean, it's completely consistent with what we're saying here with regard to foraging.

我的意思是，这与我们在这里所说的关于觅食的内容完全一致。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But if I take my phone and I put it, I don't have my phone here under the chair-

但如果我拿起手机并把它放在椅子下面，我的手机就不会在这儿了——

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

but let's say I did, and this result suggests that some component of our neural circuitry is operating in the background, thinking, "Well, I guess something could be on there," or, "Maybe I got a text," or, "Maybe there's a tweet I should look at or an Instagram post." It suggests that we are multitasking even when we think we are not multitasking.

但假设我做到了，这个结果表明我们神经回路的某些部分正在后台运行，思考，“好吧，我猜那里可能有什么东西”，或者“也许我收到了一条短信”，或者“也许有一条我应该看的推文或 Instagram 帖子。”它表明我们正在同时处理多项任务，即使我们认为自己没有同时处理多项任务。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

I think you're absolutely right.

我认为你是完全正确的。

It's beneath our awareness, right?

It's beneath our awareness, right?

And that's where I think the kind of comparative psychology, comparative neurobiology is really important here because I don't necessarily impute conscious awareness to all these critters that are out there doing these things, behaving exactly the same way we are.

这就是我认为比较心理学、比较神经生物学在这里非常重要的地方，因为我不一定将意识意识归咎于所有这些做这些事情、行为方式与我们完全相同的生物。

And so to me, that just indicates that all that hardware, those same routines are just running under the hood, running under the surface, and we're not aware of it.

所以对我来说，这只是表明所有这些硬件，那些相同的例程只是在幕后运行，在表面下运行，而我们没有意识到这一点。

So when your phone is somewhere within the sphere That could be accessed, the brain's aware of that, and it's including that in the calculations about what to do next.

因此，当您的手机位于可以访问的范围内的某个位置时，大脑就会意识到这一点，并将其纳入下一步要做什么的计算中。

And it actually reminds me now of a couple of papers that we published some time ago on foraging.

它实际上让我想起了我们不久前发表的几篇关于觅食的论文。

And one of the things that's really interesting about it is that as you are considering your options and you're experiencing sort of these depleting rewards or whatnot, you see this urgency signal kind of building up in a part of the brain, the anterior cingulate cortex, that we know is important for moving on, for switching, for searching for something new.

真正有趣的事情之一是，当你正在考虑你的选择并且你正在经历一些消耗性奖励或诸如此类的事情时，你会看到这种紧急信号在大脑的一部分，即前扣带皮层中积聚起来，我们知道它对于继续前进、转换和寻找新事物非常重要。

I don't know what the emotional component of that is, we never explored that, but it seems reasonable to imagine that that's tied to this sense of like, I really want to turn my phone over and check what's going on there.

我不知道其中的情感成分是什么，我们从未探索过这一点，但似乎有理由想象这与这种感觉有关，我真的很想把手机翻过来看看那里发生了什么。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Are there any data that suggest that just being able to maintain a thought train independent of visual input can help us get better at maintaining attention?

是否有任何数据表明，只要能够保持独立于视觉输入的思维方式就可以帮助我们更好地保持注意力？

So for instance, this morning I woke up very early, unusually early for me, because I went to bed unusually early for me, and I decided to try something, which is something that actually our colleague in neuroscience, Karl Deisseroth, had mentioned he does, and a previous guest on this podcast, Josh Waitzkin, who's a former chess grand master champion, has described something like this.

举个例子，今天早上我起得很早，对我来说异常早，因为我睡觉对我来说异常早，我决定尝试一些东西，这实际上是我们的神经科学同事卡尔·戴瑟罗斯（Karl Deisseroth）提到的，而这个播客的前一位嘉宾乔什·维茨金（Josh Waitzkin）是前国际象棋特级大师冠军，他描述了类似的事情。

I decided to try it, which was to keep my eyes closed and just try and think in complete sentences, not let my mind drift off topic for a while, have a conversation with myself in my head, but with the constant redirect of trying to stay in a thought train.

我决定尝试一下，就是闭上眼睛，尝试用完整的句子思考，不要让我的思绪暂时偏离主题，在脑海中与自己对话，但要不断地重新引导，试图保持在思维轨道上。

And it's actually much more difficult than I thought it would be, right?

事实上，这比我想象的要困难得多，对吧？

There's no other input.

没有其他输入。

My eyes are closed.

我的眼睛是闭着的。

I was comfortable at the temperature the room was, et cetera.

我对房间的温度感到很舒服，等等。

I was well-rested.

我休息得很好。

No phone, no input, and you get one sentence of thought out, then the next.

没有电话，没有输入，你就可以想出一句话，然后是下一句话。

It's a bit like writing, except here no visual input, so I would've thought it's a lot easier because you don't have a set of tabs across the top or even a Word doc with a like, do you want to change it to bold, et cetera.

这有点像写作，除了这里没有视觉输入，所以我认为这要容易得多，因为你没有顶部的一组选项卡，甚至没有带有类似内容的Word文档，你想将其更改为粗体吗？

No other input competing for one's attention.

No other input competing for one's attention.

And I found that after about 10 minutes it became pretty easy, but it took me about 10 minutes to get into this redirect of focus.

我发现大约 10 分钟后就变得相当容易了，但我花了大约 10 分钟才进入焦点转移状态。

And then at one point I thought, I better stop this because this is seeming kind of weird.

然后有一次我想，我最好停止这件事，因为这看起来有点奇怪。

But that was very different, I would say, than sitting down to, say, meditate and think about my breath, which is a physical phenomenon that's tangible at the level of feeling one's breath.

但我想说，这与坐下来冥想和思考我的呼吸有很大不同，呼吸是一种物理现象，在感觉呼吸的层面上是有形的。

So how do you feel about practices that teach us to maintain attention and redirect our attention that are very deprived of visual input as a kind of training ground for being able to harness and maintain visual input when we need to get work done, work on problem sets, write, do what I call real work, or Cal Newport would call deep work?

那么，你对教会我们保持注意力和重新引导注意力的做法有何看法，这些做法非常缺乏视觉输入，作为一种训练场，当我们需要完成工作、解决问题集、写作、做我所说的真正工作或加州纽波特所说的深度工作时，能够利用和保持视觉输入？

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

So I've never tried that, and it sounds fascinating, and I'm going to try to give it a shot tomorrow morning.

所以我从来没有尝试过，这听起来很有趣，明天早上我会尝试一下。

At first, I was thinking, this sounds a lot like meditation, right?

起初，我在想，这听起来很像冥想，对吧？

I'm no expert on meditation, but there are a whole variety of different kinds of meditation.

我不是冥想方面的专家，但冥想有很多种。

Some, as you mentioned, you're focusing on breathwork, physical stimulus.

正如您提到的，有些人会专注于呼吸、身体刺激。

But there are others that are not, and that are much more kind of cognitively focused.

但还有一些则不然，它们更注重认知。

So, for example, loving kindness meditation-

So, for example, loving kindness meditation-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

...

...

is one where you're kind of thinking about a particular person, you're imagining them, and you're imagining something really good happening to them, right?

是一种你在思考某个特定的人，你在想象他们，你在想象一些真正好的事情发生在他们身上，对吗？

So it's sort of one of these self-transcendent types of meditation, which are not, I don't think, really tied to any external input coming in, although it's an internal input, right, that's based on your memory, or awe-based meditation.

所以它是一种自我超越的冥想类型，我不认为它与任何外部输入真正相关，尽管它是一种内部输入，对吧，这是基于你的记忆或基于敬畏的冥想。

So maybe it's more similar to those.

So maybe it's more similar to those.

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

But that's like thematically anchored.

But that's like thematically anchored.

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Exactly.

正是如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Exactly.

正是如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

As opposed to visually anchored, like staring at a flame or concentrating on one's breath.

与视觉锚定相反，例如盯着火焰或专注于呼吸。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Staring at a flame.

盯着一团火焰。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, it was like free, in terms of putting in language of foraging, it was like I didn't have a plan.

是的，就像是免费的，就投入觅食的语言而言，就像我没有计划一样。

I wasn't writing a paragraph.

I wasn't writing a paragraph.

It was just, can I stay in a conversation with myself where there's no moment that some external voice or input or thought about something else in the room, just can I just kind of stay in there?

只是，我是否可以继续与自己对话，而没有任何外部声音或输入或思考房间里的其他事情，我可以只是呆在那里吗？

Can I just stay in there?

Can I just stay in there?

That was really the question.

That was really the question.

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah, I think that that makes complete sense because it's kind of like you're foraging for apples in that tree that's in the middle of the Serengeti somewhere, right?

是的，我认为这是完全有道理的，因为这有点像你在塞伦盖蒂中部某处的那棵树上寻找苹果，对吧？

And there's nothing anywhere around you, and so you're going to stick with that and just keep mining it until there's nothing left.

你周围什么都没有，所以你要坚持下去，继续挖掘，直到什么都没有剩下。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

One of the reasons that I brought up this example was I noticed that anything that has to do with attention, whether or not it's visual attention or needing to write or cognitive attention and redirecting attention, unless there's some high level of, as you call it, arousal or emotionality, I find there's always a kind of warm-up period required, and that this isn't taught to us in school, and that so many people who think that they have a hard time maintaining attention, I have this hypothesis that they are training non-attention or brief attention by scrolling through movies on a social media platform, is basically training redirecting your attention every couple seconds or maybe every few minutes.

我提出这个例子的原因之一是我注意到任何与注意力有关的事情，无论是视觉注意力还是需要写作或认知注意力和转移注意力，除非有某种高水平的，正如你所说的，唤醒或情绪化，我发现总是需要一段热身期，而这在学校里没有教给我们，而且很多人认为他们很难保持注意力，我有这样的假设，他们正在训练通过在社交媒体平台上滚动浏览电影来不注意或短暂注意，基本上是训练每隔几秒钟或也许每隔几分钟重新转移您的注意力。

So you get good at that.

所以你会擅长这一点。

You get good at scrolling.

You get good at scrolling.

You get good at what you do.

You get good at what you do.

But also, I think it was always the case ...

But also, I think it was always the case ...

that sitting down to do something difficult, or learn, or write, or pay careful auditory attention maybe even to a podcast, that there's a kind of a warming up period.

坐下来做一些困难的事情，或者学习，或者写作，或者仔细聆听，甚至听播客，这是一种热身期。

What is the evidence that neural circuits in the brain are, here I'm using very top contour language in front of another card-carrying neuroscientist, but that neural circuits are more dispersed in their activation patterns, but that over time we drop into a trench, not just of attention, but that then the signal-to-noise of that circuit required for attention and the other components of the task gets much greater compared to the background noise.

大脑中神经回路的证据是什么？在这里，我在另一位名副其实的神经科学家面前使用了非常顶级的轮廓语言，但神经回路的激活模式更加分散，但随着时间的推移，我们陷入了一个沟渠，不仅仅是注意力，而且与背景噪音相比，注意力所需的回路和任务的其他组成部分的信噪比变得更大。

Is there evidence for that?

Is there evidence for that?

In the same way that warming up to work out, no one expects to walk in and train with their work weight or to run at the speed that they would in mile three.

就像锻炼前的热身一样，没有人期望以工作重量进行训练，或者以三英里的速度跑步。

You warm up.

你热身一下。

But this notion of warming up the brain for specific cognitive activities doesn't seem as abundant out there, and I think part of the reason might be, and I'd like your thoughts on this, that we are all familiar with something super exciting or scary grabbing our attention.

但是，这种为特定认知活动预热大脑的概念似乎并不那么丰富，我认为部分原因可能是，我想听听你对此的看法，我们都熟悉一些超级令人兴奋或可怕的东西吸引我们的注意力。

But then I would say, well, you can sprint into the street to save your kid from getting hit by a car.

但我会说，好吧，你可以冲到街上，以免你的孩子被车撞到。

You didn't warm up for that, but that's not how you exercise because there isn't the same level of urgency.

你没有为此热身，但这不是你锻炼的方式，因为没有同样程度的紧迫感。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

That's a deep question.

这是一个很深奥的问题。

It's funny to me, too, because I don't warm up often before I work out and that's so-

这对我来说也很有趣，因为我在锻炼前并不经常热身，所以——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You seem to be in great shape

You seem to be in great shape

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

No, but it's funny.

不，但这很有趣。

I've been doing CrossFit for 17 years.

I've been doing CrossFit for 17 years.

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, wow.

哦，哇。

And you're still uninjured?

And you're still uninjured?

You're one of the few that don't.

You're one of the few that don't.

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Oh, no, I've got plenty of injuries.

哦，不，我受了很多伤。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Got you.

明白你了。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

I've had a couple hernia surgeries and-

I've had a couple hernia surgeries and-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Maybe just like five or 10 minutes of mobility work.

也许只是五到十分钟的移动工作。

We have a lot of episodes on this with experts.

We have a lot of episodes on this with experts.

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

No, the mobility is really good.

No, the mobility is really good.

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Periodically, it's like take many months off to do just purely mobility and PT.

定期地，就像要花几个月的时间来做纯粹的移动和体能训练。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Great.

太棒了。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

And I did Pilates intensively for a year and a half after one injury, and I loved it.

一次受伤后，我集中练习了一年半的普拉提，我很喜欢它。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, it's great.

哦，太棒了。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

It's cool to see what it does to your body because it totally refashioned it.

看到它对你的身体产生的影响真是太酷了，因为它完全重塑了你的身体。

Because I've always been like big guy up here, and then you do Pilates or yoga for a long time, went through a yoga period, too, and suddenly it's all core.

因为我在这里一直都是个大块头，然后你做了很长一段时间的普拉提或瑜伽，也经历了一段瑜伽时期，突然间一切都变成了核心。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

You become like a very different human.

You become like a very different human.

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, so this issue of warming up.

Yeah, so this issue of warming up.

You don't like warming up, which explains your injuries.

你不喜欢热身，这解释了你受伤的原因。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

No, I like warming up.

不，我喜欢热身。

It's more a question of time.

It's more a question of time.

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

And that's why I got into CrossFit in the first place-

这就是我最初加入 CrossFit 的原因 -

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah

是啊

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

...

...

was because I could do a workout in 10 minutes or under that left me dead on the floor, and it was super awesome.

因为我可以在 10 分钟或更短的时间内完成一次锻炼，这让我死在地板上，这太棒了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm telling you, 100 jumping jacks, just like in PE class, is still the best warm-up I'm aware of.

我告诉你，100 次开合跳，就像体育课一样，仍然是我所知道的最好的热身。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

It's amazing.

太棒了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

People laugh at me.

人们嘲笑我。

It's so old school, but you do 100 jumping jacks before you do any kind of cardiovascular resistance training, and I haven't run a study on this, but you greatly diminish your chance of injury, probably because of just raising core body temperature.

这太老派了，但是在进行任何类型的心血管阻力训练之前，你会先做 100 次开合跳，我还没有对此进行过研究，但你会大大减少受伤的机会，可能是因为核心体温升高了。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So the question is, okay, well, then let's pose it in this parallel fashion.

所以问题是，好吧，那么让我们以这种并行的方式提出它。

What is the equivalent of the 100 jumping jacks for cognitive work?

认知工作中 100 次开合跳相当于什么？

For me, it's internally going like, "What's wrong with you, Andrew?

对我来说，内心的想法是：“安德鲁，你怎么了？

Why is it so hard for you to punch out these 10 paragraphs?" But if someone on my team says, "Hey, we need this in eight minutes," I could do that anywhere.

为什么你打出这10段这么难？”但如果我的团队中有人说，“嘿，我们需要在八分钟内完成这个”，我可以在任何地方做到这一点。

Unless I'm actually driving a vehicle, I can work anywhere, anytime.

除非我真的在开车，否则我可以随时随地工作。

But I would say we don't have the equivalent of 100 jumping jacks for cognitive work, but we need it.

但我想说的是，我们没有相当于 100 次开合跳的认知工作，但我们需要它。

We need that.

我们需要那个。

I think people need that, and they need the understanding that it can help them get into that trench of attention.

我认为人们需要这个，他们需要理解它可以帮助他们获得关注。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

I have a bunch of disconnected thoughts on this.

I have a bunch of disconnected thoughts on this.

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Please.

请。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

So one would be the converse of that, which you kind of alluded to earlier, which is the not warming up, but the opposite of warming up, like the distraction.

因此，与此相反，您之前提到过，这不是热身，而是热身的反面，就像分散注意力一样。

So there have been some really interesting studies done in more businessy settings, management settings, that looked at foraging.

因此，在更多的商业环境、管理环境中进行了一些非常有趣的研究，着眼于觅食。

And think of it this way, it is more like a measure of creativity, your proclivity to explore, to try new things, to be the opposite of focused.

这样想，它更像是创造力的衡量标准，即你探索、尝试新事物的倾向，与专注相反。

And you can measure that, for example, like an anagram task.

例如，您可以像字谜任务一样来衡量这一点。

So you get a bunch of letters, make as many words as you can.

所以你会得到一堆字母，尽可能多地组成单词。

At some point, you decide to dump them and get new letters.

在某个时候，你决定扔掉它们并获得新的信件。

And so you're taking a risk, and you're exploring, and you're getting a new set.

所以你正在冒险，你正在探索，你正在获得一套新的东西。

You don't know what's going to happen.

你不知道会发生什么。

And really cool studies showed that if you precede that task with a task where people are foraging for points on a screen, it's like a visual kind of thing, and you're just looking for stuff.

非常酷的研究表明，如果你在这项任务之前执行一项任务，让人们在屏幕上寻找点，这就像视觉上的事情，而你只是在寻找东西。

If the points are really dispersed and spread out, we don't know how long that kind of after effect lasts, but then people are way more hyper explorers.

如果这些点真的分散并分散开来，我们不知道这种后遗症会持续多久，但人们就会成为超级探索者。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

With the words in this instance.

With the words in this instance.

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

With the word thing later.

With the word thing later.

And if they have to decide, if they're playing virtual fishing, and the rate at which you catch fish in a pond is declining, and you can press a button and take a time out to travel to another pond, people are much more willing to move on when they do that.

如果他们必须做出决定，如果他们正在玩虚拟钓鱼，并且你在一个池塘里捕鱼的速度正在下降，你可以按下一个按钮并花时间去另一个池塘，那么当他们这样做时，人们会更愿意继续前进。

Whereas if you put all the points together, which is essentially related to what you're saying, cognitively warming up by focusing, literally instead of having your filter, your aperture or your lens like this, it's now like this, even though it's a different task that you're going to do.

然而，如果你把所有的要点放在一起，这本质上与你所说的内容相关，通过聚焦来认知预热，实际上而不是像这样使用滤镜、光圈或镜头，现在就像这样，即使这是你要做的另一项任务。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, I love this.

哦，我喜欢这个。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Then-

然后——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah

是啊

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

...

...

you're much more focused on that.

you're much more focused on that.

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

I've sat here and done many, many podcasts, and I have to say, it's rare that I say I love this.

我坐在这里做了很多很多播客，我不得不说，我很少说我喜欢这个。

Probably the first time.

可能是第一次。

I absolutely love this because as a person who's worked on a variety of topics in neuroscience, but visual neuroscience has really been my first home And continues to be the way that I think about a lot of this.

我非常喜欢这个，因为作为一个在神经科学领域研究过各种主题的人，但视觉神经科学确实是我的第一个家，并且仍然是我思考很多问题的方式。

There are a couple of really interesting papers that have led to some practices, mainly in China, where students focus on a fixation point before they sit down to do cognitive work.

有几篇非常有趣的论文引发了一些实践，主要是在中国，学生在坐下来进行认知工作之前将注意力集中在一个固定点上。

And it improves their attention and performance on cognitive work.

它可以提高他们的注意力和认知工作的表现。

And it sounds so silly to people.

And it sounds so silly to people.

People think, "Oh, okay.

人们会想：“哦，好吧。

I'm going to stare at a dot." And then you're going to stare at a dot at the given distance, then I'm going to do my work.

I'm going to stare at a dot."然后你要盯着给定距离的一个点，然后我就开始做我的工作。

How lame is that?

这有多蹩脚？

Well, I think it's incredible because what you just said fully supports this idea.

嗯，我觉得这很不可思议，因为你刚才所说的完全支持这个想法。

Well, we all agree here, there's two of us, that we're mainly visual, even those of us that like to listen to music and things like that, and we're very somatic, very visual creatures.

好吧，我们都同意，我们有两个人，我们主要是视觉动物，甚至我们这些喜欢听音乐之类的人，我们是非常身体化、非常视觉化的生物。

And that where we place our visual attention and the size of the aperture of that attention, whether or not we're looking at a small box or a big box, not metaphorically, but literally, determines the aperture of our attention going forward.

我们放置视觉注意力的位置以及该注意力的孔径大小，无论我们是在看一个小盒子还是一个大盒子，不是隐喻上的，而是字面上的，决定了我们未来注意力的孔径。

In other words, I think this is such an important thing because when we look at a horizon or we walk through a city, there's information flowing past us, in all kinds of-- Without us placing our eyes on any one particular point.

换句话说，我认为这是一件非常重要的事情，因为当我们看着地平线或走过一座城市时，有各种各样的信息从我们身边流过——而我们不需要将目光放在任何一个特定的点上。

And that people don't notice until they do this and they hear this, but that's very relaxing.

人们不会注意到，直到他们这样做并听到这个，但那是非常放松的。

We look at a horizon, it relaxes us, and that's because panoramic vision, non-foveated vision, it's associated with a decrease in autonomic arousal.

我们看着地平线，它让我们放松，这是因为全景视觉，非中心凹视觉，它与自主神经唤醒的减少有关。

So has this been leveraged toward teaching kids and adults how to attend better?

那么，这是否被用来教导儿童和成人如何更好地上课呢？

Because I think this is immensely valuable.

Because I think this is immensely valuable.

This is behaviorally driven pharmacology, as I like to call it, because clearly there's a change in our chemistry when we do this sort of thing.

我喜欢称之为行为驱动药理学，因为当我们做这种事情时，我们的化学反应显然会发生变化。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Other than what you just said about the work that's done and what they're doing in China, which is entirely consistent with what I just said, I'm unaware of any utilization, and I think it could be.

除了你刚才所说的在中国所做的工作和正在做的事情与我刚才所说的完全一致之外，我不知道有任何利用，我认为可能有。

I love that phrase that you just used, which is when we understand the underlying neurochemistry, let's say, that's great, but you're not going to go in and directly manipulate people's neurochemistry.

我喜欢你刚刚使用的那句话，当我们了解潜在的神经化学时，可以说，这很棒，但你不会直接操纵人们的神经化学。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No.

不。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

But if you can change the environment they're in, or you can change the state that they're in-

但如果你可以改变他们所处的环境，或者你可以改变他们所处的状态——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

...

...

behavioral state, cognitive state, emotional state, then that's a potentially effective, practical, ethical-

行为状态、认知状态、情绪状态，那么这就是一种潜在有效的、实用的、道德的——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right

右

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

...

...

way of having this kind of same or similar impact.

具有这种相同或相似影响的方式。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a quick break and thank our sponsor, AG1.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。

AG1 is an all-in-one vitamin mineral probiotic drink with adaptogens.

AG1 是一种含有适应原的一体化维生素矿物质益生菌饮料。

I've been taking AG1 daily since 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring this podcast.

自 2012 年以来，我每天都服用 AG1，所以我很高兴他们赞助这个播客。

The reason I started taking AG1, and the reason I still take AG1, is because it is the highest quality and most complete foundational nutritional supplement.

我开始服用 AG1 的原因，以及我仍然服用 AG1 的原因，是因为它是最高品质和最完整的基础营养补充剂。

What that means is that AG1 ensures that you're getting all the necessary vitamins, minerals, and other micronutrients to form a strong foundation for your daily health.

这意味着 AG1 可确保您获得所有必需的维生素、矿物质和其他微量营养素，为您的日常健康奠定坚实的基础。

AG1 also has probiotics and prebiotics that support a healthy gut microbiome.

AG1 还含有支持健康肠道微生物群的益生菌和益生元。

Your gut microbiome consists of trillions of microorganisms that line your digestive tract and impact things such as your immune system status, your metabolic health, your hormone health, and much more.

您的肠道微生物组由数万亿微生物组成，这些微生物排列在您的消化道中，并影响您的免疫系统状态、代谢健康、激素健康等。

So I've consistently found that when I take AG1 daily, my digestion is improved, my immune system is more robust, and my mood and mental focus are at their best.

因此，我一直发现，当我每天服用 AG1 时，我的消化能力得到改善，我的免疫系统更加强大，我的情绪和精神集中度也处于最佳状态。

In fact, if I could take just one supplement, that supplement would be AG1.

事实上，如果我只能服用一种补充剂，那么该补充剂就是 AG1。

If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.

如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。

They'll give you five free travel packs, plus a year's supply of vitamin D3 K2 with your order of AG1.

您订购 AG1 时，他们将赠送您 5 个免费旅行包，以及一年的维生素 D3 K2。

Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim this special offer.

请再次访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 领取此特别优惠。

I think that so many people, including myself, think, "Okay, what's a way that I can increase my level of alertness and attention?" Well, I have this gallery of caffeine.

我认为很多人，包括我自己，都会想：“好吧，有什么方法可以提高我的警觉性和注意力水平？” Well, I have this gallery of caffeine.

Actually, the middle one's water.

Actually, the middle one's water.

For those that are just listening, I've got a mate gourd here.

对于那些只是在听的人，我这里有一个马黛茶。

Plenty of caffeine in there.

里面有很多咖啡因。

I had a cold brew mate, plenty of caffeine in there.

我喝了一杯冷萃咖啡，里面有很多咖啡因。

I had several, actually.

事实上，我有几个。

And then water in the center.

然后在中心浇水。

But caffeine raises our level of alertness, and thereby our attentional capabilities.

但咖啡因会提高我们的警觉程度，从而提高我们的注意力。

But I think that most people are not familiar with using behavior as a way to increase their endogenous release of the neurochemicals that increase arousal and attention.

但我认为大多数人并不熟悉使用行为来增加神经化学物质的内源性释放，从而提高觉醒和注意力。

And we just tend to over-rely on pharmacology, and I'm not against that.

我们只是倾向于过度依赖药理学，我并不反对这一点。

I use it, obviously.

我用它，显然。

But what do you think it is?

但你认为它是什么？

Now I'm asking you to be a bit of a cultural anthropologist.

现在我要求你成为一名文化人类学家。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What do you think it is that has led people in the United States and Europe to mainly focus on this idea that if you can't attend easily, that it's a pharmacologic issue, that behavioral tools are not as useful?

您认为是什么导致美国和欧洲的人们主要关注这样的想法：如果您不能轻松参与，这是一个药理学问题，行为工具没有那么有用？

Because the experiment you described is so cool.

因为你描述的实验太酷了。

Look at dots that are close together, your then cognitive space becomes more bundled into a tighter bundle.

看看靠近的点，你的认知空间就会变得更加紧密。

Look at dots that are more dispersed, and you tend to disperse your cognition.

看着更分散的点，你的认知就容易分散。

It becomes almost like more of a creative exploration.

这几乎更像是一种创造性的探索。

Maybe this is why my friend Rick Rubin, whose name is sort of synonymous with creativity because he wrote that amazing book, "The Creative Act," is so into sky and clouds and sunsets and space, open space.

也许这就是为什么我的朋友里克·鲁宾（Rick Rubin）如此热衷于天空、云彩、日落和太空，开放的空间，他的名字在某种程度上是创造力的代名词，因为他写了一本令人惊叹的书《创造性的行为》。

Rarely have I ever heard Rick say, "Hey, you should stare into a little soda straw." I'd love for you to just kind of riff on what you think some of the better tools are for improving attention and focus, and whether or not you think we're really as challenged in that as many people assume.

我很少听到瑞克说：“嘿，你应该盯着一根小苏打吸管。”我希望你能简单地谈谈你认为一些更好的工具可以提高注意力和专注力，以及你是否认为我们真的像许多人想象的那样面临着挑战。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Well, I don't think we're that challenged.

嗯，我不认为我们面临那么大的挑战。

I think, as I mentioned earlier, our brains are just performing the computations that they have been endowed with by millions of years of evolution, which is to allocate attention, to allocate behavior, to allocate focus according to how rich, I'll call it rich-

我认为，正如我之前提到的，我们的大脑只是在执行数百万年进化赋予它们的计算，即根据富裕程度分配注意力、分配行为、分配焦点，我称之为富裕——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

...

...

or poor the environment is.

或者说环境很差。

How many different sources are there?

有多少种不同的来源？

And so those are the rules your brain lives by, and you're not really going to change those.

这些就是你的大脑赖以生存的规则，你不会真正改变它们。

You could kind of modulate up and down a little bit, whether that's through neurochemistry or other kinds of things, but ultimately it's, in this case, the brain in the environment that it's in.

你可以稍微上下调节，无论是通过神经化学还是其他类型的东西，但在这种情况下，最终是它所处环境中的大脑。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

So from my perspective, the best thing you could do is just change the environment.

所以从我的角度来看，你能做的最好的事情就是改变环境。

Put those devices away

把这些设备收起来

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

to enable you to focus, right?

让你能够集中注意力，对吗？

And so anyway, I don't know if I had that much more to say on that topic.

无论如何，我不知道关于这个话题我是否还有很多话要说。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

No, I think what's great about this is that you're essentially pointing to the fact that we have control.

不，我认为这的伟大之处在于你本质上指出了我们拥有控制权的事实。

We're not somehow deficient or messed up if we find ourselves having a hard time directing our attention, because we've been training ourselves to scroll.

如果我们发现自己很难集中注意力，那么我们并不是有缺陷或混乱，因为我们一直在训练自己滚动。

We've been training ourselves to redirect our attention constantly to new things.

我们一直在训练自己不断地将注意力转移到新事物上。

As you can probably tell, I'm a big fan of intervening in that process so that one has the ability to drop into focused work.

正如您可能知道的那样，我非常热衷于干预这一过程，这样人们就有能力投入到专注的工作中。

I do feel as if progress in life scales fairly directly with the ability to focus on one thing for some period of time, for sake of learning in school, for sake of sport, for sake of relationships, the ability to have a real connection to somebody.

我确实觉得生活的进步与在一段时间内专注于一件事的能力直接相关，为了在学校学习，为了运动，为了人际关系，为了与某人建立真正的联系的能力。

And we're going to get into a discussion about social interactions in a bit.

我们稍后将讨论社交互动。

But when it comes to foraging, do you find that people fall out into different kind of clusters of how they forage for information?

但是当谈到搜寻时，您是否发现人们在如何搜寻信息方面分为不同类型的集群？

And what are some of the themes of that, or kind of signatures of the different groups?

其中的一些主题是什么，或者不同群体的签名是什么？

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah, that's a great question.

是的，这是一个很好的问题。

We haven't really approached it with the idea that there are clusters, but rather that there's, let's say, a continuum-

我们并没有真正以存在集群的想法来处理它，而是存在，比方说，一个连续体——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

...

...

and of being either, most people are somewhere in the middle, of course.

当然，无论是哪一种，大多数人都处于中间位置。

But some folks, hyper-focused, right?

但有些人非常专注，对吧？

And you might just metaphorically imagine them at the extreme, like obsessive compulsive almost, right?

你可能只是隐喻地将它们想象到极端，就像强迫症一样，对吧？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

You can't get unstuck from a routine.

你无法摆脱例行公事。

And at the other end would be folks who explore too readily, right?

而另一端则是那些太容易探索的人，对吗？

So folks who we would say have attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.

所以我们所说的人患有注意力缺陷多动障碍。

And so folks fall somewhere along that distribution.

所以人们会落在这个分布的某个地方。

Now, we've seen that there are differences between species in terms of where they are on that.

现在，我们已经看到物种之间在这方面的地位存在差异。

Difference is a function of age in humans, so you kind of move from being more hyper-exploratory toward more focused as you get older.

差异是人类年龄的函数，所以随着年龄的增长，你会从更具探索性转向更专注。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, good.

哦，很好。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

And that also one of the things that we've talked about a lot is that variation where you are on that continuum might make you more or less suited to different types of careers, different types of jobs.

我们经常讨论的一件事是，你所处的连续体的变化可能会让你或多或少适合不同类型的职业、不同类型的工作。

It's not to say that people can't change, but think of it this way.

并不是说人不能改变，而是这样想。

You've got a dial that goes from super focused to a major explorer, and creativity goes along with that.

你的表盘可以从超级专注变成主要的探索者，创造力也随之而来。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

One person might come with their dial set at three, another person at seven.

一个人来时可能会将表盘设置为 3，另一个人可能将其设置为 7。

And you could help that person at a three maybe turn theirs to five, but probably not to 10, right?

你可以帮助那个人把三分变成五分，但可能不会变成十分，对吗？

The person who's at a seven, you could turn them up to nine.

七分的人，你可以把他们变成九分。

So through various kinds of practices.

所以通过各种实践。

Because I think that's really important to just recognize that people do vary, and that variation we pick up on in the sort of neurological context of issues, problems that people experience, like with focus in school, et cetera like that.

因为我认为认识到人们确实存在差异，以及我们在人们经历的神经学背景下发现的差异，例如在学校的注意力集中等问题，这一点非常重要。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

People are-

人们是——

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

no doubt wondering, "Well, if I am good at dropping into a trench and focusing my attention for long periods of time," maybe it's more obvious what types of careers that person would be better at.

毫无疑问，我会想，“好吧，如果我擅长深入研究并长时间集中注意力，”也许这个人更擅长什么类型的职业会更明显。

Maybe it's programming or writing, or who knows, painting.

也许是编程或写作，或者谁知道呢，是绘画。

But when you have somebody whose attention tends to flit between different things, what sorts of professions do they align well with?

但是，当有人的注意力倾向于在不同的事物之间转移时，他们适合从事哪种职业呢？

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah, that aligns with creative professions.

是的，这与创意职业相符。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

And also being entrepreneurs.

而且还是企业家。

Actually, if you look at the data on entrepreneurs, the rate of attention problems is two, three, four X-

其实你看创业者的数据，问题的关注度是二、三、四X——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Hmm

嗯

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

...

...

the general population.

普通民众。

You also see that it's often comorbid with other issues related to anxiety, bipolar, et cetera.

您还会发现，它通常与焦虑、双相情感障碍等其他问题同时存在。

So they kind of all cluster there with a real issue on that sort of focus.

因此，他们都聚集在那里，关注一个真正的问题。

And we work with a team out in Berkeley actually that provides support to entrepreneurs, so that they can do their best, do their thing, which is to be wildly creative, and innovative, I should say, but when they need that focus, so they can have it.

我们与伯克利的一个团队合作，实际上为企业家提供支持，以便他们能够尽最大努力，做他们的事情，我应该说，这就是疯狂的创造力和创新，但是当他们需要专注时，他们就可以拥有它。

And we have a big research project going on right now, looking at entrepreneurs in California and also MBA students at Wharton, to just try to identify the prevalence of these issues and then to potentially provide support for them, and that support could take any number of different forms.

我们现在正在进行一个大型研究项目，着眼于加州的企业家和沃顿商学院的 MBA 学生，试图找出这些问题的普遍程度，然后为他们提供潜在的支持，这种支持可以采取多种不同的形式。

It could be true psychiatric support in the sense of maybe attention-focusing pharmaceuticals, drugs like Ritalin, Adderall, which can be used appropriately, but that doesn't rob those individuals of their mojo.

这可能是真正的精神科支持，可能是集中注意力的药物，如利他林、阿得拉等药物，可以适当使用，但这并不会剥夺这些人的魔力。

But in other cases, it's going to be more like providing an ecosystem, so where they can learn focusing practices as we've already talked about, where when they build their teams, they can build complementary strengths-

但在其他情况下，这更像是提供一个生态系统，这样他们就可以学习我们已经讨论过的专注实践，当他们建立团队时，他们可以建立互补的优势——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

...

...

in the people that surround them so that they're much more likely to be successful.

在他们周围的人中，这样他们就更有可能成功。

And our economy depends on those people being successful, right?

我们的经济取决于这些人的成功，对吗？

So that's where the vast majority of economic activity is coming from, is people who start small businesses, who are entrepreneurs, and who are innovators, so it makes all the sense in the world to do that.

因此，绝大多数经济活动都来自那些开办小企业的人、企业家和创新者，所以这样做在世界上是有意义的。

But I think we've been neglecting all this now.

但我认为我们现在忽略了这一切。

Actually, the thing I wanted to say earlier about this, and that where I think neuroscience gives us a new tool to approach a lot of these business questions, is that let's imagine you're hiring.

实际上，我之前想说的一点是，我认为神经科学为我们提供了一种新工具来解决许多此类业务问题，让我们想象一下您正在招聘。

And you're hiring, we need a creative type.

你在招聘，我们需要有创意的人才。

Okay?

好的？

So you put an ad out, and you get resumes and responses and people have come in for interviews.

所以你发布了一个广告，你收到了简历和回复，人们也来参加面试。

How do you measure that creativity, typically?

您通常如何衡量创造力？

Are you going to say, "Oh, how creative are you?" And you're like, "You really want the job," so you're like, "Yeah, I'm super creative." Or you give them a personality test, for example, like Myers-Briggs or something like that.

你会说，“哦，你有多有创意？”你会说，“你真的很想要这份工作”，所以你会说，“是的，我非常有创造力。”或者你给他们进行性格测试，例如迈尔斯-布里格斯或类似的测试。

And we know those are not particularly accurate, and self-report can be not only inaccurate but biased, and biased by the context.

我们知道这些并不是特别准确，自我报告不仅可能不准确，而且可能存在偏见，并且会受到上下文的影响。

Why am I here?

我为什么在这里？

Who's asking me a question?

谁在问我问题？

How is that question asked?

这个问题是怎么问的？

Whereas the neuroscience gives us tools to kind of measure those things directly.

而神经科学为我们提供了直接测量这些事物的工具。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

And in some cases, you could measure it directly from the brain, and we do that, but that's not going to be practical, not going to be scalable, right?

在某些情况下，你可以直接从大脑中测量它，我们也这样做了，但这不切实际，不具有可扩展性，对吧？

Not going to be something a lot of people want to embrace, let's say, as applicants.

比如说，作为申请人，这不会是很多人想要接受的事情。

But find ways to interrogate the brain that are not asking people to assess themselves.

但要找到询问大脑的方法，而不是要求人们评估自己。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

For instance, what would a small number of questions be for this?

例如，少量的问题会是什么？

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Not even questions.

连提问都没有。

One of the things that we've done is develop games, like brief little, very engaging games, that are based on specific tasks that we know interrogate specific circuits in the brain, like foraging, for example-

我们所做的事情之一是开发游戏，比如简短的、非常引人入胜的小游戏，这些游戏基于我们知道询问大脑中特定电路的特定任务，例如觅食——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

...

...

where people are literally harvesting berries, let's say, okay?

比方说，人们实际上正在收获浆果，好吗？

And they're going along, and the goal is to kind of get as many as you can.

他们正在继续前进，目标是尽可能多地获得。

And from their behavior, we can figure out exactly where they are on that continuum-

从他们的行为中，我们可以准确地弄清楚他们在这个连续体上的位置——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Hmm

嗯

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

...

...

mathematically-

数学上——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

...

...

and say, okay, well, in the dashboard that we create, like okay, you are pitched a bit more toward being an innovator and creative type explorer, so less likely to be, say, a good manager who would need to have a higher degree of focus.

并说，好吧，好吧，在我们创建的仪表板中，好吧，你更倾向于成为一名创新者和创造性类型的探索者，因此不太可能成为一名需要高度关注的优秀经理。

And we do that for a number of different aspects of cognitive and emotional performance, so things like in terms of social competence, for example.

我们这样做是为了认知和情感表现的许多不同方面，例如社交能力。

And so we have actually a little game, it mimics soccer, and we've had monkeys play it, humans play it.

所以我们实际上有一个小游戏，它模仿足球，我们让猴子玩它，人类玩它。

We know exactly what it kind of elicits from the brain and what circuits it relies on.

我们确切地知道它从大脑中引发什么以及它依赖什么电路。

And that allows us to numerically identify your strategic planning abilities or your something like theory of mind, getting in the head of an opponent.

这使我们能够从数字上识别你的战略规划能力或你的心理理论等能力，从而领先于对手。

And those games, we've found, it's really been very gratifying to demonstrate that those predict performance in a number of different jobs, in high-performance jobs, like actual soccer players

我们发现，这些游戏能够预测许多不同工作、高绩效工作（例如真正的足球运动员）的表现，这确实非常令人欣慰

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

...

...

but also in the military, in cyber operations.

而且在军事、网络行动中也是如此。

And so we're now exploring, and we've helped to stand up a startup company in Philadelphia, that's their mission, is to go out and try to use those tools to see if they can do better than basically a whole bunch of questions.

所以我们现在正在探索，我们已经帮助在费城成立了一家初创公司，这就是他们的使命，就是走出去尝试使用这些工具，看看他们是否可以比基本上一大堆问题做得更好。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, it certainly goes way beyond kind of typical Myers-Briggs or Enneagram type personality tests.

是的，它肯定远远超出了典型的迈尔斯-布里格斯或九型人格测试。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Which I think has certain value.

我认为有一定的价值。

If nothing else, people like to know about themselves, and I do think categorizing oneself a little bit according to like, are you a three on the Enneagram, or a four, or an eight?

如果不出意外的话，人们喜欢了解自己，我确实认为可以根据自己的喜好对自己进行分类，你是九型人格中的三，还是四，还是八？

Certainly gives you a frame of reference, but, yeah, it doesn't seem very useful for the kinds of work environments that you're describing, whereas what you're describing sounds much more sophisticated.

当然为您提供了一个参考框架，但是，是的，它对于您所描述的工作环境似乎不太有用，而您所描述的听起来要复杂得多。

You mentioned theory of mind.

你提到了心理理论。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We should talk about theory of mind because here we are back to visual neuroscience, but I have the understanding, you can tell me if I'm right or wrong, that as old world primates, one of the more impressive features that we've developed is the ability to attend to a location with our eyes but pay attention to something else in the periphery.

我们应该谈论心理理论，因为这里我们又回到了视觉神经科学，但我有这样的理解，你可以告诉我我是对还是错，作为旧世界的灵长类动物，我们开发出的最令人印象深刻的功能之一是能够用我们的眼睛关注一个位置，但注意外围的其他东西。

People used to refer to this as the other cocktail party effect.

人们过去常将此称为“另一种鸡尾酒会效应”。

The cocktail party effect is the ability to pay attention to a conversation while there's stuff in the background, but this is the other cocktail party effect that sort of with sometimes chuckles, gets described as you're out to dinner with somebody, and you're listening to them and you're paying attention to them, but you're also paying attention to the conversation next to you or maybe someone else at the bar.

鸡尾酒会效应是指在背景中有东西的情况下关注谈话的能力，但这是另一种鸡尾酒会效应，有时会咯咯笑，被描述为你和某人出去吃饭，你正在听他们说话，你正在关注他们，但你也注意到你旁边的谈话，或者可能是酒吧里的其他人。

You can fill in the blanks there.

您可以在那里填写空白。

This is an amazing ability, regardless of what it's used for, that a lot of other primate species don't have.

这是一种惊人的能力，无论它的用途是什么，许多其他灵长类动物都不具备。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

As far as I know, no other species have.

据我所知，没有其他物种有。

So this seems to be, but we know macaques can do this, for example, and humans do this routinely.

似乎是这样，但我们知道猕猴可以做到这一点，例如，人类也经常这样做。

We assume all apes do this.

我们假设所有猿类都会这样做。

And the adaptive explanation is I think exactly what you're alluding to, which is the fact that when you live in a complex multilevel society with differentiated relationships, where the things that matter to you are your family ...

我认为适应性解释正是您所暗示的，即当您生活在一个具有差异化关系的复杂多层次社会中时，对您来说最重要的是您的家庭......

your rank, your status, your friends, your enemies, all those kinds of things, that then creates a really complex environment for, as you said, devoting your attention because where we look, typically, that's the focus of your attention and what's turned up, and other brains know that.

你的等级，你的地位，你的朋友，你的敌人，所有这些东西，然后创造一个非常复杂的环境，正如你所说，你要集中注意力，因为我们看的地方通常是你注意力的焦点和出现的东西，而其他大脑知道这一点。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Right?

对吗？

And so now let's imagine you're a baboon, and you're not the highest ranking baboon.

现在让我们假设你是一只狒狒，而且你不是排名最高的狒狒。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

And the high-ranking alpha's over there, and so you train your gaze on that alpha baboon, but there's a really attractive female over here that you want to know where she's heading because that's a good mating opportunity later.

高级狒狒就在那里，所以你把目光集中在那只狒狒身上，但是这里有一只非常有吸引力的雌性狒狒，你想知道她要去哪里，因为那是以后的一个很好的交配机会。

So it's that ability to kind of split attention from your overt attention, what your gaze is pointed at, and covertly what you're amplifying and tracking in the environment.

因此，它是一种将注意力从你的公开注意力、你的目光所指向的东西以及你在环境中秘密放大和跟踪的东西中分离出来的能力。

And to tie this back to theory of mind, I think it's reasonable and consistent with some of the data that theory of mind, which is a sense of being able to infer what somebody else knows, what they can see, what they want, their state of mind, which might be different from yours, that it develops through the way that, as infants and young children, our experience of first gazing at a caregiver, maintaining attention with them, and then learning to follow their gaze when they look somewhere and they say, "Hey, that's an apple," or whatever, that you do the same thing.

并将其与心理理论联系起来，我认为这与心理理论的一些数据是合理且一致的，心理理论是一种能够推断出别人知道什么、他们能看到什么、他们想要什么、他们的心理状态的感觉，这可能与你的不同，它是通过以下方式发展起来的：作为婴儿和幼儿，我们首先凝视护理人员，保持对他们的关注，然后学会在他们看向某个地方并说时跟随他们的目光， “嘿，那是一个苹果”，或者其他什么，你也做同样的事情。

And that gaze-following then is a precursor to joint attention.

那么，目光跟随就是共同关注的先兆。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

And joint attention being really important for the development of the theory of mind, which is our sense of being able to understand, make predictions, make inferences about what's going on in somebody else's head.

共同关注对于心智理论的发展非常重要，心智理论是我们能够理解、预测、推断别人头脑中正在发生的事情的感觉。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I feel like the overlap of covert attention and theory of mind, as you described, comes from this assumption that I have, which is that we have effectively two spotlights of attention, and that we can merge them.

正如你所描述的，我觉得隐性注意力和心理理论的重叠来自于我的假设，即我们实际上拥有两个注意力焦点，并且我们可以将它们合并。

So I can place all my attention on you and what we're talking about, or your face, et cetera.

这样我就可以把所有的注意力集中在你和我们正在谈论的事情上，或者你的脸等等。

I can split my attention between you and something over there in the corner.

我可以将注意力分散到你和角落里的某个东西上。

Or I can take that second spotlight of attention and place it on myself, like, "Oh, I need to move to the side because I've got a little maybe an itch on my thigh or something like that." But I don't think we have three spotlights that we can work with very easily anyway.

或者我可以把第二个注意力集中在自己身上，比如，“哦，我需要移到一边，因为我的大腿可能有点痒或类似的东西。”但我认为无论如何我们都没有可以轻松使用的三个聚光灯。

Maybe we could train that up, but that we don't naturally have more than two spotlights of attention.

也许我们可以对此进行训练，但我们自然不会有超过两个注意力的聚光灯。

We can merge these two spotlights of attention, and I feel like, and I've done some practice at this, just because I'm a neuroscientist and I like to try things, of ramping up my level of focus, just trying to really, like I'm doing it right now, I'm looking at you and the contour of your shape against the background.

我们可以将这两个注意力焦点合并起来，我觉得，我已经在这方面做了一些练习，只是因为我是一名神经科学家，我喜欢尝试一些东西，提高我的注意力水平，只是试图真正，就像我现在正在做的那样，我正在看着你和你在背景下的形状轮廓。

I can really decide to emphasize those borders.

我真的可以决定强调这些边界。

I'm not really doing anything behaviorally that's different than I was a few moments ago.

我实际上并没有做任何与几分钟前不同的行为。

But then I could also bring that spotlight of attention kind of down a little bit in intensity.

但随后我也可以将注意力的聚光灯强度降低一点。

So I feel like we have two spotlights of attention that we can ramp up in intensity, and we don't normally do this so consciously.

所以我觉得我们有两个注意力的聚光灯，我们可以加大强度，但我们通常不会有意识地这样做。

Normally, we're more in stimulus response.

通常，我们更多的是刺激反应。

And I think about this a lot nowadays because, and forgive me for referencing previous podcasts, but we had this brilliant, absolutely brilliant, 84-year-old psychoanalyst, Jungian analyst, named James Hollis on the podcast.

我现在经常思考这个问题，因为，请原谅我引用了之前的播客，但我们播客上有一位才华横溢、绝对才华横溢的 84 岁精神分析师、荣格分析师，他的名字叫詹姆斯·霍利斯 (James Hollis)。

And he talked about what it is to be human and to create a life, and it boiled down basically to two things, which was to acknowledge that we're in stimulus response a lot of the day, and how to be functional in that domain was a lot of that conversation, but that there's this essential aspect to life, which is to get out of stimulus response and bring those spotlights of attention inward, and to think and to reflect, and then go back into stimulus response.

他谈到了人类和创造生命的意义，基本上可以归结为两件事，那就是承认我们一天中的很多时间都处于刺激反应中，以及如何在这个领域发挥作用是很多谈话的内容，但生活中有一个重要的方面，那就是摆脱刺激反应，将注意力集中在内心，思考和反思，然后回到刺激反应。

And when we just sleep, wake up, and go into stimulus response all day, or if we go meditate all day and are not in stimulus response, neither is good.

当我们只是睡觉、醒来，一整天都进入刺激反应，或者如果我们整天冥想但没有处于刺激反应中，这都不好。

So it's that balance.

所以这就是平衡。

And so this notion of two spotlights of attention, I'd love for you to tell me this is complete BS or that it works.

因此，关于两个焦点的概念，我希望你能告诉我这完全是胡说八道，或者它是有效的。

I don't need to be validated here.

我不需要在这里验证。

I was more putting it out there as a hypothesis because it feels true to me, but that's obviously just a feeling.

我更多地将其作为一个假设提出，因为它对我来说是真实的，但这显然只是一种感觉。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Well, I think that feeling, as far as I know, is consistent with what we understand about how attention amplifies the visual signals or other signals that are coming into our brains, and the ways in which we can, I don't know if it's divided purely or if it sort of bleeds over-

嗯，我认为，据我所知，这种感觉与我们对注意力如何放大进入我们大脑的视觉信号或其他信号的理解是一致的，以及我们可以放大的方式，我不知道它是纯粹的划分还是有点过度流血-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

...

...

and what that really exactly looks like.

以及它到底是什么样子的。

But the landscape, let's imagine it's a landscape of neural activity, and you can kind of raise up two humps or just one hump, and it doesn't feel like you can go beyond that.

但是，让我们想象一下，这是一幅神经活动的风景，你可以举起两个驼峰或只举一个驼峰，但感觉你无法超越这一点。

That's really, really hard to measure.

这真的非常难以衡量。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

And I think our best data on that comes from recording the activity of neurons in macaques, in monkeys, while they are doing attention, these sort of visual discrimination tasks.

我认为我们最好的数据来自于记录猕猴、猴子在进行注意力、视觉辨别任务时神经元的活动。

And I think that'd be really, really hard to actually elicit that kind of behavior from them.

我认为要让他们做出这种行为真的非常非常困难。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, we both agree, I know because we were talking before we started recording, that certain types of stimuli really grab our attention and influence our decisions and our valuation of things out there in the world.

好吧，我们都同意，我知道，因为我们在开始录音之前就已经讨论过，某些类型的刺激确实会吸引我们的注意力，并影响我们的决定和我们对世界上事物的评价。

So talk to me about monkey porn.

那么跟我谈谈猴子色情片吧。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Okay.

好的。

We never called it monkey porn, but-

我们从来没有称其为猴子色情片，但是-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, we're calling it monkey porn here

好吧，我们在这里称之为猴子色情片

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

...

...

a lot of people have said that essentially, no matter what else I do in my career, that's going to be on my tombstone.

很多人都说过，从本质上讲，无论我在职业生涯中做什么，这都会刻在我的墓碑上。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This man unpacked the neurobiology of monkey porn.

这个人解开了猴子色情片的神经生物学。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Okay, so let's go back in the wayback machine, and so back when I was an anthropologist, and I'm going out and watching monkeys, and it's very clear that there are certain ...

好吧，让我们回到回溯机，回到我还是一名人类学家的时候，我出去观察猴子，很明显，有某些......

things in the world that are important to them, that they prioritize, and those are the same things that we do.

世界上对他们来说重要的事情，他们优先考虑的事情，而这些也是我们所做的事情。

So they pay attention to each other, to their faces, but also to other cues, and these cues seem to make adaptive significance, right?

所以他们会注意彼此，注意他们的脸，还会注意其他线索，而这些线索似乎具有适应性意义，对吧？

That they're relevant for your ability to survive and reproduce, which is the name of the game for evolution.

它们与你的生存和繁殖能力相关，这就是进化游戏的名称。

That's all that really counts.

这才是真正重要的。

Okay, and what are those things?

好吧，那些东西是什么？

Well, they're cues to status.

嗯，它们是地位的线索。

So who's dominant, who's subordinate, who can take my stuff?

那么谁是主宰，谁是从属，谁能拿走我的东西？

Who do I got to watch out for?

我需要提防谁？

Who can I dominate and take stuff from?

我可以主宰谁并从谁那里夺取东西？

And cues to sort of mate quality, mating opportunities.

以及交配质量和交配机会的线索。

And if you look at non-human primates, they display those things very conspicuously, right?

如果你观察非人类灵长类动物，它们会非常明显地表现出这些东西，对吧？

So, males have these big canines, and they have sort of physical, dominant features, very square jaw, all that kind of stuff.

所以，雄性有这些大犬齿，它们有某种身体上的、占主导地位的特征，非常方形的下巴，诸如此类的东西。

And females, for example, in macaques, display their hormonal state, how receptive they are to mating, and likelihood of ovulating at that time through the sort of the swelling and coloration on their perineum.

例如，雌性猕猴通过会阴的肿胀和颜色来显示它们的荷尔蒙状态、对交配的接受程度以及当时排卵的可能性。

Here's a good word for your listeners, perineum, which we introduced, I think, into the neuroscience literature.

对于听众来说，这是一个好词，会阴，我认为，我们将其引入神经科学文献中。

And that's just the sort of anogenital region.

这就是肛门生殖器区域。

So that's where-

所以这就是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The taint

污点

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

...

...

they're putting a lot of signaling taint.

他们制造了很多信号污染。

Okay.

好的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Someone else on here, listen, another card-carrying researcher-

这里还有其他人，听着，另一位持卡研究员——

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

Dr. Shana Swan, came on here to talk about phthalates in microplastics and endocrine disruptors.

Shana Swan 博士来到这里谈论微塑料中的邻苯二甲酸盐和内分泌干扰物。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

She spent a career working on this.

她为此投入了整个职业生涯。

She's a serious scientist.

她是一位严肃的科学家。

And she talked about how taint sizes are diminishing in males by virtue of endocrine disruptors accessing the fetus during pregnancy.

她还谈到，由于内分泌干扰物在怀孕期间进入胎儿，男性体内的污染程度正在减少。

This is a statistically very robust effect.

从统计上看，这是一个非常强劲的效应。

I know we're going to get into a discussion about fertility later, because you've worked on this issue as well.

我知道我们稍后会讨论生育问题，因为您也研究过这个问题。

So we can say, the perineum, taint, and now everyone knows what we're talking about.

所以我们可以说，会阴，污点，现在每个人都知道我们在说什么了。

So, the females display their perineum region-

所以，雌性会展示她们的会阴区域——

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

differently when they're ovulating?

排卵期的时候有什么不同吗？

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah, so it becomes redder, fuller, et cetera.

是的，所以它变得更红、更饱满等等。

So if you go to the zoo, and you see the monkeys with the big red butts, they're the ones who are the females.

所以如果你去动物园，你看到那些长着红色大屁股的猴子，它们就是雌性。

It turns out that males do that, too.

事实证明，男性也会这样做。

So, males signal their circulating testosterone levels by how red their taint is, and actually, even you can just see the physical size of their testes is a pretty good proxy and a cue.

因此，雄性通过其异味的红色程度来表明其循环睾酮水平，实际上，即使你只能看到其睾丸的物理尺寸也是一个很好的代理和提示。

And in rhesus macaques, there's also these signals around the eyes that they get a little bit darker.

在恒河猴中，眼睛周围也有这些信号，表明它们的颜色变暗了一点。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Hmm.

嗯。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

The theory is that humans, so for a long time people said, "Oh, humans don't display anything about their hormonal biological state to promote monogamy and all kinds of stuff like that." Even though it seems that monogamy in terms of mating does not seem to be the dominant strategy in humans.

这个理论是人类，所以很长一段时间人们说，“哦，人类不会表现出任何有关荷尔蒙生物状态的信息来促进一夫一妻制和诸如此类的事情。”尽管在交配方面一夫一妻制似乎并不是人类的主导策略。

Let's call it that.

我们就这么称呼它吧。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, but just to make sure that I'm clear on this, you are saying that it used to be said that humans don't signal their hormonal status, and the reason people were saying that is because it was a promotion of monogamous behavior, which is actually not true in humans?

是的，但为了确保我清楚这一点，你是说过去有人说人类不会发出荷尔蒙状态的信号，人们这么说的原因是因为这是对一夫一妻制行为的促进，而这在人类中实际上是不正确的？

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Well, so, this goes back to Darwin, really, who sort of theorized that humans, during human evolution, that as monogamy became more adaptive for whatever reason, it's all speculation, right?

好吧，所以，这实际上可以追溯到达尔文，他提出了这样的理论：人类在进化过程中，随着一夫一妻制无论出于何种原因变得更具适应性，这都是猜测，对吗？

That these sort of cues were hidden, so that you wouldn't be encouraged to find other mating opportunities outside-

这些线索是隐藏的，这样你就不会被鼓励去外面寻找其他交配机会——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I see

我明白了

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

...

...

your monogamous relationship.

你的一夫一妻制关系。

And so it would kind of keep the focus, to get back to that, on your partner.

因此，它将把注意力集中在你的伴侣身上，回到这一点。

But all the data that's out there, both from when societies were encountered by Western scientists, whether polygyny was practiced or not, to just what we understand about extra pair matings, like in offspring, et cetera, that strict monogamy does not seem to have been the dominant strategy.

但现有的所有数据，无论是西方科学家遇到的社会时，无论是否实行一夫多妻制，还是我们对额外配对的理解，比如后代等，严格的一夫一妻制似乎并不是占主导地位的策略。

Now, that's also consistent with the observation that we are a sexually dimorphic species, so when you look at the animal kingdom, in primates in particular, those that are obligate, pair-bonded, monogamous primates, males and females don't really differ much.

现在，这也与我们是性二态性物种的观察结果一致，所以当你观察动物界时，特别是灵长类动物，那些专性、配对、一夫一妻制的灵长类动物，雄性和雌性并没有太大差异。

Like if you look at marmosets or tamarins-

就像你看狨猴或狨猴一样——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In terms of body size.

从车身尺寸来看。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Body size, coloration, conspicuous sexual characteristics.

体型大小、颜色、明显的性特征。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Brain structure as well.

大脑结构也是如此。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

That's another interesting point which we can circle back to.

这是我们可以回过头来讨论的另一个有趣的点。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

But even if you just look at brain size relative to body size, that is smallest in pair-bonded, monogamous species.

但即使你只看大脑相对于身体大小的大小，在配对、一夫一妻制的物种中，大脑的大小也是最小的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The difference in brain size between the males and females.

男性和女性大脑大小的差异。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Not between males and females, but just overall, and it sort of scales up with group size and group complexity.

不是在男性和女性之间，而是在整体上，并且它会随着群体规模和群体复杂性而扩大。

It's slightly different, but there's a point there which is that pair-bonded monogamous species look very different, right?

略有不同，但有一点是，配对一夫一妻制的物种看起来非常不同，对吧？

It-

它——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Different.

不同。

I'm sorry, a different thing is?

抱歉，有什么不同吗？

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

It's very unusual.

这很不寻常。

Let's just say this, so it's very unusual, right?

这么说吧，这很不寻常吧？

In mammals overall, it's very unusual.

总体而言，对于哺乳动物来说，这是非常不寻常的。

In primates, there's only a few-

在灵长类动物中，只有少数——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Monogamous primates

一夫一妻制的灵长类动物

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

...

...

monogamous, obligate, pair-bonded primates.

一夫一妻制、专性、配对的灵长类动物。

And in general, their behavior is not as complicated or complex-

而且一般来说，他们的行为并没有那么复杂或者复杂——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

...

...

as individuals that live in societies where there's a lot more

作为生活在有更多东西的社会中的个人

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Going on in terms of strategizing to attain mating opportunities either through physical challenge or through being sneaky or making friends, et cetera.

继续制定策略，通过身体挑战、偷偷摸摸或交朋友等等来获得交配机会。

There's this sort of proliferation of different strategies that requires a lot more mental calculation, apparently, that goes hand in hand with an increase in brain size, cortex size, et cetera.

不同策略的激增需要更多的心算，显然，这与大脑大小、皮层大小等的增加密切相关。

Which makes sense from the standpoint of more prefrontal cortex, more context-dependent strategy setting, and decision-making.

从更多的前额皮质、更依赖于环境的策略设置和决策的角度来看，这是有意义的。

It could be based on-- It seems that with more prefrontal cortex, a species can incorporate different valuations of mates.

它可能是基于——似乎有了更多的前额叶皮层，一个物种可以整合对配偶的不同评价。

It can be about hormonal status, and I want to make sure we get back to that, how humans signal hormonal status.

这可能与荷尔蒙状态有关，我想确保我们回到这个话题，人类如何表示荷尔蒙状态。

Yeah.

是的。

But it could also be about reproductive potential as it relates to resource allocation, or whether or not they'll be a good caretaker.

但这也可能与繁殖潜力有关，因为它与资源分配有关，或者它们是否会成为一个好的看护者。

A lot of additional factors can be incorporated in, and working with more variables flexibly requires more neural real estate.

可以纳入许多其他因素，并且灵活地处理更多变量需要更多的神经空间。

Mostly in prefrontal cortex, right?

主要在前额皮质，对吗？

Absolutely, although based on a paper we published last year in "Nature," I would say that our notions of sort of the breakdowns of where stuff is in the brain and how it's encoded, I think is going to change a lot, and there are a number of other studies that have come out in the last year or so that echo this.

当然，尽管基于我们去年在《自然》杂志上发表的一篇论文，我认为我们对大脑中物质的位置及其编码方式的分解的概念将会发生很大的变化，并且去年左右发表的许多其他研究也与这一点相呼应。

And so this was a paper in which we did something unthinkable, I think in the sort of history of neuroscience, which is all about reduction.

因此，在这篇论文中，我们做了一些不可思议的事情，我认为在神经科学史上，这都是关于还原的。

Let's make the experiment as simple as possible.

让我们让实验尽可能简单。

Only vary one thing, right?

只改变一件事，对吗？

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

And we're going to find where that one thing is in the brain.

我们要找到那个东西在大脑中的位置。

And that's the tradition going back to Hubel and Wiesel, right?

这就是Hubel 和Wiesel 的传统，对吗？

Hubel and Wiesel, folks Sash ...

休贝尔和威塞尔，伙计们，萨什……

my scientific great-grandparents.

我的科学曾祖父母。

No, we were bound to do it sooner or later.

不，我们迟早会这么做。

They won the Nobel Prize for their understanding.

他们因其理解而获得了诺贝尔奖。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

For their parsing of the neural basis of vision, neuroplasticity, et cetera.

表彰他们对视觉、神经可塑性等神经基础的解析。

Torsten's still alive.

托斯顿还活着。

I think he's like 100 now.

我想他现在已经100岁了。

Last time I saw him, he was 96, and he was still jogging and doing art.

上次我见到他时，他已经96岁了，他还在慢跑和做艺术。

David passed away.

大卫去世了。

Amazing.

惊人的。

You can look it up.

你可以查一下。

H and W we call them, Hubel and Wiesel.

我们称 H 和 W 为 Hubel 和 Wiesel。

They're on the Mount Rushmore of neuroscience, and we'll get back to this.

他们位于神经科学的拉什莫尔山上，我们稍后会回到这个话题。

So please, yeah, explain to us what this paper showed, and then we will then talk about how humans signal their hormonal status.

所以，请向我们解释一下这篇论文所展示的内容，然后我们将讨论人类如何表达其荷尔蒙状态。

And we'll go all the way back to monkey porn, I hope, because- Oh, we won't leave monkey porn in the- It's really near and dear We won't leave monkey porn in the past, no. So near and dear to my heart.

我希望我们会一路回到猴子色情片，因为 - 哦，我们不会把猴子色情片留在 - 它真的很近而且亲爱的我们不会在过去留下猴子色情片，不。如此贴近我的心。

Okay, so Hubel and Wiesel.

好的，休贝尔和威塞尔。

We're going to really simplify because that's how we figure out exactly how it works.

我们将真正简化，因为这就是我们如何弄清楚它到底是如何工作的。

But that's not what our brains do.

但这不是我们的大脑所做的。

That's not the environment our brains are in.

那不是我们大脑所处的环境。

When you're out there in the world, you've got this incredibly complex visual environment, social environment.

当你身处外面的世界时，你会遇到极其复杂的视觉环境、社交环境。

And what you do in any moment depends on what you experienced recently, what you think might happen next, what might have happened last week in a similar circumstance.

你在任何时刻所做的事情取决于你最近经历过什么，你认为接下来可能会发生什么，上周在类似情况下可能会发生什么。

It's super complicated, and it reflects all these different competing interests and values, and that's true for monkeys, too.

它非常复杂，它反映了所有这些不同的相互竞争的利益和价值观，对于猴子来说也是如此。

Okay?

好的？

And so we did my dream experiment from back when I was an anthropologist, which was to get rid of the lab, okay?

所以我们做了我当人类学家时梦想的实验，那就是摆脱实验室，好吗？

And instead, we recorded wirelessly from thousands of neurons in the brain, in prefrontal cortex, which you mentioned, and we tend to think of as being important for decision making and setting goals and context.

相反，我们通过无线方式记录了您提到的大脑前额皮质中数千个神经元，我们倾向于认为这对于决策以及设定目标和背景很重要。

And also, the sort of high-level visual area in the temporal lobe that's important for sensing objects and maybe faces and things like that.

而且，颞叶中的高级视觉区域对于感知物体（也许是面部之类的东西）很重要。

So seemingly, one at an input level and one at a higher order level.

看起来，一个处于输入级别，一个处于更高阶级别。

We did this mostly because of some technological limitations, but it turned out to be really a good thing in the end because it told us something really unusual.

我们这样做主要是因为一些技术限制，但最终证明这确实是一件好事，因为它告诉我们一些非常不寻常的事情。

So what we did then is we let monkeys just be monkeys with each other, okay?

所以我们当时所做的就是让猴子们彼此做猴子，好吗？

So we'd have a male with his female friend, or alone with a female friend on the other side of a plexiglass divider.

所以我们会有一个男性和他的女性朋友，或者单独和一个女性朋友在有机玻璃隔板的另一边。

And then there could be other monkeys present, like as observers, who are watching what they're doing or not.

然后可能还有其他猴子在场，就像观察者一样，他们正在观察自己在做什么或没有做什么。

And then we also introduced challenges to them.

然后我们也给他们提出了挑战。

So basically, my graduate student would come in and threaten one of the monkeys, and this elicits a lot of agitation and arousal because monkeys- We're going to have to say how you threaten a monkey ...

所以基本上，我的研究生会进来威胁其中一只猴子，这会引起很多不安和兴奋，因为猴子 - 我们必须说你如何威胁一只猴子......

look, we're just big kind of not as hairy monkeys to them, and that makes- To threaten them, you look at them directly in the eye.

看，我们对他们来说只是体型大一点，不像毛猴子，这使得——要威胁他们，你就得直视他们的眼睛。

You look at them and you open your mouth.

你看着他们，张开嘴。

Yeah, so if you go to the zoo, folks, and you look directly at a monkey and you smile, that's a threat.

是的，所以如果你去动物园，伙计们，你直视一只猴子并微笑，那就是一种威胁。

If you want to be friendly with the monkeys, lip smack.

如果你想和猴子友好相处，就咂嘴。

That's a good thing.

这是一件好事。

It's an affiliation thing.

这是一个隶属关系。

It almost looked like we were blowing kisses at one another.

看起来几乎就像我们在互相飞吻。

You notice we both looked away.

你注意到我们都把目光移开了。

That's probably where it comes from.

这可能就是它的来源。

That's right.

这是正确的。

That's probably where it comes from.

这可能就是它的来源。

So you got a naturalistic experiment.

所以你做了一个自然主义实验。

So you got a natural experiment.

所以你得到了一个自然的实验。

Yeah.

是的。

And so rather than having one, varying one thing, these monkeys engaged in 27, 28 different kinds of behaviors.

因此，这些猴子不是只有一种、不同的一件事，而是有 27 种、28 种不同的行为。

Okay?

好的？

They would forage, they'd scratch, they'd groom each other, they'd threaten, they'd mount, they'd do everything that monkeys do, right?

它们会觅食，它们会抓伤，它们会互相梳理毛发，它们会威胁，它们会上马，它们会做猴子所做的一切，对吗？

And then we also, as we were varying the context as well.

然后我们也一样，因为我们也在改变背景。

And so that blows the lid off of the complexity in a typical experiment.

这揭示了典型实验的复杂性。

And what did we find?

我们发现了什么？

We found that neurons in both these areas, they were indistinguishable.

我们发现这两个区域的神经元无法区分。

Were modulated.

进行了调制。

They were affected.

他们受到了影响。

Their firing rates, their activity was affected by the behaviors that the animals engaged in.

它们的放电率和活动受到动物行为的影响。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

And what the other animals engage in too.

其他动物也从事什么活动。

Also, who's around?

还有，谁在附近？

Who's watching me?

谁在看着我？

Is it male X or female Y?

是男X还是女Y？

And what was really surprising, so first of all, you see these signals, they're basically the same.

真正令人惊讶的是，首先，你看到这些信号，它们基本上是相同的。

These two parts of the brain are supposed to be very different.

大脑的这两个部分应该是非常不同的。

And the average neuron cared about something like seven things, rather than one or two.

平均神经元关心七件事，而不是一两件事。

Okay?

好的？

A grandmother cell, which was one idea for how the brain encoded things, like there's one neuron, it only responds to your grandmother.

祖母细胞是大脑如何编码事物的一种想法，就像有一个神经元一样，它只对你的祖母做出反应。

Something like that.

类似的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Jennifer Aniston cells.

詹妮弗·安妮斯顿的细胞。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Jennifer Aniston cells.

詹妮弗·安妮斯顿的细胞。

A very famous-

一个非常有名的——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Barack Obama cells

巴拉克·奥巴马细胞

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

...

...

study.

研究。

Barack Obama cells.

巴拉克·奥巴马细胞。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And now there's this question about whether or not they're in a relationship.

现在有一个问题是他们是否处于恋爱关系。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So that's why I brought it, but that was actually in the paper.

这就是我带来它的原因，但这实际上是在报纸上的。

There were neurons in the cortex-

大脑皮层里有神经元——

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

that responded to Jennifer Aniston specifically.

这专门回应了詹妮弗·安妮斯顿。

Jennifer Aniston cells.

詹妮弗·安妮斯顿的细胞。

Barack Obama specifically.

特别是巴拉克·奥巴马。

I'm guessing there are Donald Trump neurons.

我猜有唐纳德·特朗普神经元。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

There's probably quite a few.

应该有不少吧

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

And I'm guessing there were Biden neurons.

我猜有拜登神经元。

So-

所以——

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Maybe

也许

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Maybe.

也许吧。

So, you're saying that two very distinct brain areas can respond very similarly to the same things, so that's one interesting finding.

所以，你是说两个截然不同的大脑区域可以对相同的事物做出非常相似的反应，所以这是一个有趣的发现。

The second interesting finding, as I understand, is that neurons are paying attention not just to what you're looking at, or the monkey is looking at, but also who's looking at them, who else is around, what the goal is.

据我了解，第二个有趣的发现是，神经元不仅关注你在看什么，或者猴子在看什么，而且还关注谁在看它们，周围还有谁，目标是什么。

So individual neurons are multitasking.

所以单个神经元是多任务处理的。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

They're multitasking.

他们身兼数职。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Got it.

明白了。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Or, as we say, multiplexing, but it's really the same thing as multitasking, and that raises a lot of really interesting question, why?

或者，正如我们所说，多任务，但它实际上与多任务处理是一样的，这提出了很多非常有趣的问题，为什么？

Why are these signals all over the place?

为什么这些信号无处不在？

Which it seems to be the case.

情况似乎确实如此。

And one idea that's out there is that because, let's say it's a visual area, those visual neurons might need to know the context in which something is happening in order to appropriately encode that stimulus.

现有的一个想法是，因为，假设这是一个视觉区域，这些视觉神经元可能需要知道某件事发生的背景，以便正确地编码该刺激。

Because it matters, the meaning of that stimulus.

因为刺激的意义很重要。

It's another monkey, like when I'm looking at you, it matters that we're in this setting here in California and I flew out here yesterday and all that stuff.

这是另一只猴子，就像当我看着你时，重要的是我们在加利福尼亚州的这个环境中，而我昨天飞到这里以及所有这些东西。

Might be really important for what my brain does with that information.

可能对于我的大脑如何处理这些信息非常重要。

How I encode it, what I put into memory, et cetera.

我如何编码它，我将什么放入内存等等。

So that's one hypothesis that I think that we're all entertaining because it would be heresy to say that actually, it's more like, another name drop, Karl Lashley view of the brain, that it's just one big mush that is all sort of doing-

所以这是一个我认为我们都很有趣的假设，因为如果说实际上它更像是另一种名字，卡尔·拉什利对大脑的看法，那就是异端邪说，它只是一大堆正在做的事情——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So in 30 seconds, Karl Lashley ran a really critical experiment where it was the equipotentiality of cortex experiment, where basically, there'd been decades of experiments with people lesioning a given area of the brain and seeing some deficit in behavior.

因此，在 30 秒内，卡尔·拉什利 (Karl Lashley) 进行了一项非常关键的实验，即皮层等电位实验，基本上，已经进行了数十年的实验，让人们损害大脑的特定区域并观察到一些行为缺陷。

Lashley decided to do the same experiment and found that regardless of which area of the cortex, this is important, that it was the cortex specifically that he scooped out, lesioned, got rid of, set it in a dish next to the, in his case, I think it was rats.

拉什利决定做同样的实验，发现无论大脑皮层的哪个区域，这一点都很重要，他专门挖出、破坏、去除了大脑皮层，将其放在旁边的盘子里，在他的例子中，我认为是老鼠。

He didn't observe deficits in that behavior, at least that persisted.

他没有发现这种行为有缺陷，至少这种缺陷一直存在。

But you see this in the monkey and human data.

但你可以从猴子和人类的数据中看到这一点。

You can lesion a brain area, see a huge deficit.

你可以损伤大脑区域，看到巨大的缺陷。

I know I'm telling you what you already know, Michael, but I think most people don't realize this.

我知道我正在告诉你你已经知道的事情，迈克尔，但我认为大多数人没有意识到这一点。

A brain lesion can lead to a huge deficit in behavior that is recovered later, over time through plasticity, unless you start digging into the deeper stuff of the brain-

大脑损伤可能会导致行为上的巨大缺陷，随着时间的推移，这种缺陷会通过可塑性而恢复，除非你开始挖掘大脑更深层的东西——

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

where lesions lead to permanent deficits-

病变导致永久性缺陷-

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

unless some intervention is provided.

除非提供一些干预。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

The cortex seems to be maybe a little bit, I don't want to say equipotential, but it's very plastic, it's very flexible, and very adaptive.

皮质似乎可能有点，我不想说等电位，但它的可塑性很强，非常灵活，而且适应性很强。

So, this was a really cool finding, I thought, and we could decode from the population of neurons exactly what each of the animals was doing and who was around and who's watching.

所以，我认为这是一个非常酷的发现，我们可以从神经元群体中准确解码每只动物在做什么，以及谁在周围以及谁在观看。

Which, to me, was very gratifying.

这对我来说非常令人欣慰。

But the thing that was most exciting to me, I think that finding is really cool for neuroscientists.

但最让我兴奋的是，我认为这一发现对于神经科学家来说真的很酷。

But for the primatologist, the anthropologist in me, the finding that was most exciting was that we discovered the account, the mental account, for our social relationships.

但对于作为灵长类动物学家、人类学家的我来说，最令人兴奋的发现是我们发现了我们社会关系的解释，即心理解释。

Okay, so for monkeys, a large fraction of the way that they build and maintain relationships is through grooming each other.

好吧，对于猴子来说，它们建立和维持关系的很大一部分方式是通过互相梳理毛发。

So when they go, and they pick through each other's fur, and that's how you make friends.

所以当他们离开时，他们会互相扒皮，这就是你交朋友的方式。

Okay?

好的？

That's how you make allies.

这就是你结交盟友的方式。

And what has been observed, going back to when monkeys were first being watched, is that they tend to be really equitable.

追溯到猴子第一次被观察的时候，我们观察到它们往往非常公平。

They're like, "If I invest two minutes in you, you will eventually invest two minutes back in me.

他们就像是，“如果我在你身上投入两分钟，你最终也会在我身上投入两分钟。

It might not happen right away, but we're going to balance out.

这可能不会立即发生，但我们会平衡。

It's going to come even." And that raised the idea, which most people thought was ridiculous, that wow, they're actually tracking and keeping notes on all this.

甚至都会到来。”这就提出了一个想法，大多数人认为这是荒谬的，哇，他们实际上正在跟踪并记录所有这一切。

They've got a ledger for their investments and withdrawals in this social relationship.

他们有一个账本，用于记录他们在这种社会关系中的投资和取款。

So to make it more salient for the listeners, think of it as like when you're texting, and you text a friend, and they text you back, and then you text them, and you text them again, and you text them again, and you're like, "Am I getting ghosted?

因此，为了让听众更清楚地了解这一点，可以将其想象为当你发短信时，你给朋友发短信，他们给你回短信，然后你给他们发短信，你再次给他们发短信，你再次给他们发短信，然后你会想，“我是不是被鬼魂迷住了？

What the heck's going on here?

这到底是怎么回事？

Why are you not texting?" You start to feel that sense of urgency, betrayal.

你为什么不发短信？”你开始感受到那种紧迫感、背叛感。

Like, "Oh, I'm not going to text you now.

就像，“哦，我现在不会给你发短信。

I'm going to wait until you text me back." It's the same kind of thing.

我会等你给我回短信。”这是同一类事情。

We have this sense of, and in fact, when we think about now all the stuff that's going on sociopolitically, in terms of equitable relationships, I think that this bears on that.

我们有这种感觉，事实上，当我们现在考虑社会政治上正在发生的所有事情时，就公平关系而言，我认为这与此有关。

So- We did something that had never been done before, which is we tracked every single grooming interaction that ever happened between these monkeys over months, because we could.

所以-我们做了一些以前从未做过的事情，那就是我们跟踪这些猴子之间在几个月内发生的每一次梳理互动，因为我们可以。

We had cameras on them, and we used computer vision to do all that tracking.

我们在它们身上安装了摄像头，并使用计算机视觉来进行所有跟踪。

And yeah, they were perfectly equitable.

是的，他们是完全公平的。

But sometimes it would take minutes to balance it, sometimes it took weeks.

但有时需要几分钟才能平衡，有时需要数周。

Like, "You owe me." And then it would come back.

比如“你欠我的”。然后它就会回来。

What we found is that in both of these brain areas, we're carrying that mental account that precisely tracked who owed whom what.

我们发现，在这两个大脑区域中，我们都携带着一种心理账户，可以精确地追踪谁欠了谁什么。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Amazing.

太棒了。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

How much grooming.

多少修饰。

That blew my mind.

这让我大吃一惊。

Because we all feel that, right?

因为我们都有这样的感觉，对吧？

It's like one of the most salient things there is in our lives.

这就像我们生活中最重要的事情之一。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, BetterHelp.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 BetterHelp。

BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online.

BetterHelp 提供由持证治疗师完全在线进行的专业治疗。

Now, I personally have been doing therapy weekly for well over 30 years.

现在，我个人每周进行治疗已有 30 多年了。

Initially, I didn't have a choice.

最初，我别无选择。

It was a condition of being allowed to stay in school.

这是被允许留在学校的一个条件。

But pretty soon I realized that therapy is an extremely important component to one's overall health.

但很快我就意识到治疗对于一个人的整体健康来说是极其重要的组成部分。

There are essentially three things that great therapy provides.

伟大的治疗本质上可以提供三件事。

First of all, it provides a good rapport with somebody that you can trust and talk to about pretty much any issue with.

首先，它与您可以信任的人建立了良好的融洽关系，并且可以与您谈论几乎任何问题。

Second of all, it can provide support in the form of emotional support and directed guidance.

其次，它可以以情感支持和定向指导的形式提供支持。

And third, expert therapy can provide useful insights.

第三，专家治疗可以提供有用的见解。

BetterHelp makes it very easy to find an expert therapist with whom you resonate with and that can provide you those three benefits that come from effective therapy.

BetterHelp 让您可以轻松找到与您产生共鸣的专家治疗师，并且可以为您提供有效治疗带来的三大好处。

Also, because BetterHelp allows for therapy to be done entirely online, it's super time efficient and easy to fit into a busy schedule.

此外，由于 BetterHelp 允许完全在线进行治疗，因此它的时间效率非常高，并且很容易适应繁忙的日程。

There's no commuting to a therapist's office or sitting in a waiting room.

无需通勤到治疗师办公室或坐在候诊室。

No traffic, no parking issues, et cetera.

没有交通，没有停车问题等等。

If you'd like to try BetterHelp, you can go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month.

如果您想尝试 BetterHelp，可以访问 betterhelp.com/huberman，第一个月可享受 10% 的折扣。

Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman.

再说一次，这是 betterhelp.com/huberman。

This explains, occasionally I'll get a text from a friend that says, "Nice conversation," which means they texted me a bunch before and I didn't respond.

这就解释了，有时我会收到朋友发来的短信，上面写着“谈话很愉快”，这意味着他们之前给我发了很多短信，但我没有回复。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And part of that has to do with, for me, the way that texts are archived, they can kind of drift down and then they're hard to find.

对我来说，部分原因与文本的存档方式有关，它们可能会逐渐消失，然后很难找到。

And I'm a known long latency response person, but then I barrage, not intentionally.

我是一个众所周知的长延迟响应者，但随后我会发弹幕，而不是故意的。

I'll get on a plane and be like, "Oh, that's right.

当我登上飞机时，我会说：“哦，没错。

I'm going to get to these texts from a couple of weeks ago and respond to them, or a couple of days ago." And, I find voice memos to be a good solution to this.

我将在几周前或几天前查看这些短信并回复它们。”而且，我发现语音备忘录是一个很好的解决方案。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I have a couple of people in my life with whom I mainly communicate through voice memo.

在我的生活中，我主要通过语音备忘录与一些人交流。

But it is very interesting that my team here, we have what feels like a very consistent cadence and balance of accounts.

但非常有趣的是，我的团队在这里，我们的节奏和账户余额感觉非常一致。

Like even the text duration, I'm fine with a one-word, or even one-letter text, and I'm fine with an essay.

就像文本的持续时间一样，我可以接受一个单词，甚至一个字母的文本，也可以接受一篇文章。

But certain relationships, you just don't do that.

但在某些关系中，你只是不这样做。

So what is this, just because I can't help myself, what is the brain area that's tracking this account or is it a network?

那么这是什么，只是因为我无法控制自己，跟踪这个帐户的大脑区域是什么，或者它是一个网络？

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

It's a network.

这是一个网络。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay, great.

好的，太好了。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Then we don't have to-

那么我们就不必——

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

We don't have to

我们不必

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

bog people down with brain areas.

让人们的大脑区域陷入困境。

Well, this is amazing.

嗯，这太棒了。

I think that, rather than people talk about love languages, right?

我想，与其说人们谈论爱情，不如说语言吧？

Is it physical touch?

是身体接触吗？

Is it acts of service?

是服务行为吗？

Some of you words of affirmation.

一些肯定的话。

I'm guessing that some people are tracking these very carefully, too, in humans and balancing the account.

我猜想有些人也在人类中非常仔细地追踪这些并平衡账户。

And that kind of love language idea seems like our five acts of support or our five physical contact events, whatever you want to call it.

这种爱的语言理念似乎就像我们的五种支持行为或我们的五种身体接触事件，无论你怎么称呼它。

I know I'm really sounding like a scientist.

我知道我听起来真的像个科学家。

A nerd.

一个书呆子。

Are those equivalent to five sentences of affirmation?

这相当于五句话的肯定吗？

What I'm gathering is that the brain is probably calculating these things on an individual basis.

我收集到的是，大脑可能正在单独计算这些事情。

And so it's not like five sentences equals five acts of service.

所以五句话并不等于五次服务行为。

But maybe it is.

但也许确实如此。

That there's some internal valuation that is very mathematical.

有一些非常数学化的内部估值。

You're just trying to balance the checkbook.

你只是想平衡支票簿。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

I think it is very mathematical, but I want to point out that in the pairs of monkeys, we've now expanded this to multiple monkeys in a big open field, but they're equal kind of partners, right?

我认为这是非常数学化的，但我想指出的是，在成对的猴子中，我们现在已经将其扩展到一个大开放场地中的多只猴子，但它们是平等的伙伴，对吧？

So it made sense that that balance was sort of one for one.

因此，这种平衡是一对一的，这是有道理的。

And we know that studies of wild monkeys, wild primates, that the sort of conversion, like dollars to pesos or whatever, is not one to one if there's something else in that relationship.

我们知道，对野生猴子、野生灵长类动物的研究表明，如果这种关系中存在其他因素，那么这种转换，比如美元兑换比索或其他什么，就不是一对一的。

So if there's a power differential, it's like if you're beta male, and you're grooming alpha male, it might be 100 minutes of grooming that alpha male that you get one groom back.

因此，如果存在权力差异，就好像你是 beta 雄性，而你正在为 alpha 雄性梳理毛发，那么你可能需要花 100 分钟梳理 alpha 雄性，才能得到一名新郎。

Or more importantly, you groom that alpha male for months and years on end, and then he comes and saves your life when you are in an aggressive encounter with another individual.

或者更重要的是，你连续数月甚至数年地培养那个雄性领袖，然后当你与另一个个体发生攻击性冲突时，他就会出现并拯救你的生命。

So you see how that-

所以你看那是怎样的——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

...

...

I think that's what you're getting at, maybe, with the love languages, which is that there is this underlying currency, but the value of that currency for each individual varies, depending on what they, I don't know where that variation comes from, but depending on what's most important, what's most salient for them, and then also probably what that relationship is like, and if there's a power differential, if there's any other kind of differential as well.

我认为这也许就是你在爱情语言中所要表达的意思，那就是存在这种基础货币，但这种货币对每个人的价值都不同，这取决于他们的情况，我不知道这种变化从何而来，但取决于什么是最重要的，什么对他们来说是最显着的，然后也可能是这种关系是什么样的，以及是否存在权力差异，是否还有其他类型的差异。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The math of power dynamics online is really interesting to observe on X, where people tend to be a bit more combative, at times.

在 X 上观察在线权力动态的数学确实很有趣，人们有时会变得更加好斗。

Not everybody.

不是每个人。

But I've noticed this notion of don't feed the trolls, right?

但我注意到了“不要喂食巨魔”的概念，对吧？

Like someone says something that's insulting and you don't honor them with a response.

就像有人说了一些侮辱性的话，而你却没有以回应来尊重他们。

You just let it go by.

你就让它过去吧。

That that would be somehow completing some sort of reward circuitry, because what they really want is not to harm your reputation, but to be acknowledged.

这会以某种方式完成某种奖励回路，因为他们真正想要的不是损害你的声誉，而是得到认可。

That their opinion matters.

他们的意见很重要。

And social media As long as people have access to an account, effectively, it levels the field.

和社交媒体 只要人们能够有效地访问帐户，它就会拉平这个领域。

Although, then there's this prioritization of high follower accounts and what used to be...

尽管如此，高关注者帐户的优先级以及过去的情况......

When blue checks became purchasable, a lot of people were upset because it was essentially equaling the status playing field somewhat.

当蓝色支票变得可以购买时，很多人都感到不安，因为它本质上在某种程度上等于地位竞争环境。

But it's very interesting to see how this stuff plays out.

但看看这些东西如何发挥作用是非常有趣的。

Do you honor somebody with a response or do you ignore somebody's insult?

你会通过回应来尊重某人还是忽略某人的侮辱？

The classic "Mad Men" Don Draper response in the elevator that has turned into a meme, the, "Well, I don't think about you at all," being the ultimate sort of display of his power that in terms of not even allowing his neural circuits to keep track of an account.

经典的《广告狂人》唐·德雷珀在电梯里的反应已经变成了一个模因，“好吧，我根本没想到你”，这是他权力的终极展示，甚至不允许他的神经回路跟踪账户。

It's like zero for you, is essentially what he was saying.

这对你来说就像零，这基本上就是他所说的。

So is it the case that power dynamics are tracked across for conflict, for collaboration?

那么，权力动态是否会因冲突或合作而被追踪？

We talked about love languages, which is a collaboration.

我们谈论了爱的语言，这是一种合作。

Some people do seem, in life, to be very transactional, is the word we assign to it.

在生活中，有些人确实看起来非常事务性，这是我们赋予它的词。

They're tracking, like, "You did this and I did this.

他们正在跟踪，比如，“你做了这个，我也做了这个。

No, you paid last time, I paid this time," this kind of thing.

不对，上次是你付的，这次是我付的”这种事。

Or they're elevated by the idea that, oh, yeah, they did this and this, therefore, the relationship must be much tighter than perhaps the other person in the relationship thinks it is.

或者他们被这样的想法所提升，哦，是的，他们做了这个、这个，因此，这种关系一定比关系中的另一个人想象的要紧密得多。

These are complex features, but the idea that we are old world primates and that there's a brain network tracking this stuff, to me, makes really good sense, and I think it's wonderful that you've identified a physiological anatomical substrate for it.

这些都是复杂的特征，但对我来说，我们是旧世界的灵长类动物，并且有一个大脑网络跟踪这些东西，这一想法非常有意义，我认为你已经确定了它的生理解剖学基础，这真是太棒了。

I think it lends a lot of support to thousands of years of observations.

我认为它为数千年的观察提供了很多支持。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Well, thanks.

嗯，谢谢。

No, I think you're spot on there in the sense that at some point, it's all really transactional in the calculus of evolution, right?

不，我认为你说得对，在某种程度上，进化论中的一切都是真正的事务性的，对吧？

So ultimately, if your calculations do the right thing so that you get resources and mating opportunities and translate that into offspring, and that they do that into offspring as well, then whatever the biological substrate was that did that is going to proliferate and potentially become honed and really specialized for doing the job.

所以最终，如果你的计算做了正确的事情，这样你就获得了资源和交配机会，并将其转化为后代，并且它们也将这些转化为后代，那么无论生物基质是什么，它都会增殖，并有可能变得更加成熟，真正专门用于完成这项工作。

And that's actually one other argument for why we study primates because we're so closely related to them.

这实际上是我们研究灵长类动物的另一个论点，因为我们与它们的关系如此密切。

We share all these features of our biology and our behavior.

我们共享我们的生物学和行为的所有这些特征。

But also because, and this is where I think, for example, personally, I find it much more compelling to study animals like rhesus macaques as opposed to, say, marmosets, which we talked about a little bit, in the sense that if we're thinking about the forces that have made us who we are, which as we just talked about, you see it displayed on X every day.

但也因为，这就是我认为的地方，例如，就我个人而言，我发现研究像恒河猴这样的动物比研究狨猴更有吸引力，我们刚才谈到了狨猴，从某种意义上说，如果我们思考造就我们的力量，就像我们刚才谈到的那样，你每天都会看到它显示在X上。

Attending to all these things, tracking all these different relationships, deciding whether or not to give somebody your attention, the purest form of generosity, as it was said.

处理所有这些事情，追踪所有这些不同的关系，决定是否给予某人你的关注，正如人们所说，这是最纯粹的慷慨形式。

That's what monkeys have to do, too.

这也是猴子必须做的。

And so this argument from what we call neuroethology, and ethology being the science of basically trying to understand behavior as a product of evolution, right?

所以这个论点来自我们所谓的神经行为学，而行为学基本上是试图将行为理解为进化的产物，对吧？

That it's designed just like physical features, just like the wing of a bird.

它的设计就像物理特征一样，就像鸟的翅膀一样。

That our mental processes and the underlying mechanisms are designed to serve very specific functions.

我们的心理过程和潜在机制旨在服务于非常特定的功能。

And so if we want to understand how we got to be the way that we are, we should look toward animals that seem to be doing the same kind of things, facing the same kinds of pressures in the environment, and particularly the social environment, which seems to be the one that's most important for us.

因此，如果我们想了解我们是如何成为现在这个样子的，我们应该关注那些似乎在做同样事情、在环境中面临同样压力的动物，尤其是社会环境，这似乎对我们来说是最重要的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

How do humans signal their hormone status?

人类如何发出激素状态信号？

This is on a very different end of the spectrum.

这是一个非常不同的极端。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But everything we're talking about, which is fairly high level and in the brain, exists, as I like to think about it, on a water level or a tide that's set by our levels of autonomic arousal.

但是，正如我喜欢思考的那样，我们所谈论的一切都在相当高的水平上存在于大脑中，存在于由我们的自主唤醒水平决定的水位或潮汐上。

Like thinking, feeling, action changes when levels of autonomic arousal are very high, AKA stress, alertness versus when we're sleepy.

就像当自主神经唤醒水平非常高（又名压力、警觉性与困倦时）时，思维、感觉、行动会发生变化。

And hormones certainly influence autonomic arousal and a bunch of other things, too.

荷尔蒙肯定也会影响自主神经的唤醒和其他一些事情。

Hormones is a broad category, but let's just stay with the ones that most people are familiar with.

激素是一个广泛的类别，但我们只讨论大多数人熟悉的激素。

So, what are the data on how females signal, let's just say, testosterone, estrogen, and other relevant hormones, and for males as well, what are the external signals?

那么，关于女性如何发出睾酮、雌激素和其他相关激素信号的数据是什么，对于男性来说，外部信号又是什么？

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Sure.

当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Or behavioral signals.

或者行为信号。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

That's a really important point that you made because those things go together.

这是您提出的非常重要的一点，因为这些事情是相辅相成的。

So, it's been most controversial for females, but, in my view, the data is pretty clear, and it aligns, I think, with our own intuitions, just from daily life.

因此，这对于女性来说是最具争议性的，但是，在我看来，数据非常清楚，而且我认为，它与我们自己的日常生活直觉是一致的。

Well, some things are apparently not consciously perceptible.

嗯，有些事情显然不是有意识地感知的。

It's hard to report, but through studies where you just ask males for, like, "Okay, how attractive is this woman?" or et cetera, that there are changes in the face, for example, and that's been one argument, is that, this is going to sound funny, but that the signals that in non-human primates are in the rear, because we're walking upright, you can't see that really, so now it's in the face.

这很难报告，但通过研究，你只需询问男性，比如“好吧，这个女人有多有吸引力？”等等，例如，面部发生了变化，这是一个争论，这听起来很有趣，但非人类灵长类动物的信号在后面，因为我们直立行走，你实际上看不到，所以现在它在脸上。

And so these changes that happen, that the ovulatory cycle is reflected in the turgidity, how tight the skin is in the face because it gets a little plumper and a little bit redder.

所以发生的这些变化，排卵周期反映在肿胀度上，脸上皮肤的紧绷程度，因为它变得更丰满，更红了一点。

And we may not be consciously aware of that, but That it's there, right, and it shows up in sort of preference data when you ask heterosexual males, "How attractive is this woman?" et cetera.

我们可能没有意识到这一点，但它就在那里，对吧，当你问异性恋男性“这个女人有多有吸引力？”时，它就会以偏好数据的形式出现。等等。

So that seems to be the case.

看来确实是这样。

And also behavioral, so sort of flirtatious behavior-

还有行为上的，比如调情的行为——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Increases around the time of ovulation.

排卵期前后增加。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

There's a classic study that exotic dancers, strippers, would actually get bigger tips, more tips, when they were ovulating than when they're not ovulating.

有一项经典研究表明，异国情调的舞者、脱衣舞娘在排卵时实际上会比不排卵时获得更大、更多的小费。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Interesting.

有趣。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

So there maybe-

所以也许有——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it could be by virtue of their behavior, their dance-

这可能是由于他们的行为、他们的舞蹈——

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Physical

身体素质

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

but it could be the way they dance, proximity-

但这可能是他们跳舞的方式，接近——

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Absolutely

绝对

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

to the, what I guess the observers, clients, whatever you call them.

我猜是观察者、客户，无论你怎么称呼他们。

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

I don't recall that being quantified-

我不记得被量化了-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

...

...

but it suggests that there's a latent signal there.

但这表明那里存在潜在信号。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And that men are unconsciously processing this.

男人正在无意识地处理这个问题。

They're not saying, "Oh, her cheeks are particularly-

他们并不是说，“哦，她的脸颊特别——

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Exactly

正是如此

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

plump and red right now." But that if you measure their ratings or-

现在又胖又红。”但如果你衡量他们的收视率或者-

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

their scores of attractiveness when she's ovulating, it's these features that might be drawing out that response.

当她排卵时他们的吸引力分数，正是这些特征可能会引起这种反应。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Correct.

正确。

We can take this back to the monkey porn studies, which was our first real foray into trying to quantify the value of various kinds of social information for guiding decisions.

我们可以回顾一下猴子色情研究，这是我们第一次真正尝试量化各种社会信息的价值以指导决策。

And we already came into this, with a sense that things like status, physical prowess, mating status, you look like a good mate, bad mate, are you in mating condition, et cetera.

我们已经进入了这个阶段，有一种感觉，比如地位、体力、交配状态、你看起来像一个好伴侣、坏伴侣、你是否处于交配状态等等。

And so when you think about that, how do you ask a monkey that question?

那么当你思考这个问题时，你如何问猴子这个问题呢？

You could ask him.

你可以问他。

He's not going to tell you because they can't talk.

他不会告诉你，因为他们不会说话。

But you have to develop a behavioral way to elicit that.

但你必须开发一种行为方式来引发这一点。

And so what we did, I think it was pretty clever, was to riff on the studies that I had already done, looking at varying the expected value of two options.

所以我们所做的，我认为这是非常聪明的，就是重复我已经完成的研究，研究改变两种选择的预期价值。

So this was the work I did as a postdoc with Paul Glimcher, where we revealed economic signals in the brain, in the parietal cortex.

这就是我作为博士后与 Paul Glimcher 一起所做的工作，我们揭示了大脑顶叶皮质中的经济信号。

An area between where visual signals come in and where you make a choice, to make a behavioral response.

视觉信号进入和您做出选择以做出行为反应之间的区域。

And we varied, in this case, monkeys don't work for money, though they'll work for juice, okay?

我们改变了，在这种情况下，猴子不为钱工作，尽管他们会为果汁工作，好吗？

Actually, it's really fun.

事实上，这真的很有趣。

You spend a lot of time figuring out what juice they really love best.

你花了很多时间来弄清楚他们最喜欢什么果汁。

And then economically, you would vary the size of the juice reward that each of the two offered, or its probability while maintaining size constant.

然后从经济上讲，你可以改变两者提供的果汁奖励的大小，或其概率，同时保持大小不变​​。

That when you combine those, you multiply those together, you get expected value.

当你将它们结合起来时，将它们相乘，你就得到了预期值。

That's the first model of economic decision-making that was really ever developed, right?

这是第一个真正开发出来的经济决策模型，对吧？

You compute the expected value of different options.

您计算不同选项的期望值。

You choose the one that has the highest value.

您选择价值最高的一项。

It doesn't work all the time, but it's sort of a rough proxy.

它并不总是有效，但它是一种粗略的代理。

And we showed that, yeah, neurons in parietal cortex signal that.

我们证明，是的，顶叶皮层的神经元发出了信号。

Monkeys are good economists.

猴子是优秀的经济学家。

They choose the one that has a higher expected value.

他们选择具有更高期望值的那个。

Okay, so now take that experiment.

好的，现在进行这个实验。

I'm going to have monkeys choosing between two options that vary in how much juice they pay out, but I'm also going to pop up a picture when they choose one of them, okay?

我会让猴子在两个选项之间进行选择，这两个选项的支付量不同，但当它们选择其中一个时，我也会弹出一张图片，好吗？

And they don't know what picture's coming up, but the picture's going to be, it could be a nothing burger, just like some gray square.

他们不知道会出现什么图片，但图片可能是，它可能是一个什么都没有的汉堡，就像一些灰色的方块一样。

It doesn't mean anything.

这没有任何意义。

Or it could be the perineum of a female if it were males that we were studying.

或者，如果我们研究的是男性，那么它可能是女性的会阴。

We did this with females making choices eventually as well.

我们最终也让女性做出了选择。

Could be a face of a dominant male, face of a subordinate male, face of a female, et cetera.

可能是占主导地位的男性的脸、从属男性的脸、女性的脸等等。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What's the equivalent of the swollen taint of a female monkey for if you reverse the experiment and it's the female monkey who's making a choice about male monkeys, what do they find really attractive in a male monkey?

如果你颠倒实验，是雌猴在对雄性猴子做出选择，那么它们认为雄性猴子真正有吸引力的是什么？

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah, so it's the taint of the male monkey-

是的，所以这是雄性猴子的污点-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay

好的

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

...

...

because it's providing a signal about how much-

因为它提供了一个关于有多少的信号-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So it's just monkeys looking at taints of other monkeys.

所以这只是猴子在看其他猴子的污点。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah, how much testosterone is circulating, that they've got on board basically-

是的，有多少睾丸激素正在循环，他们基本上已经加入了-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

...

...

which is a good predictor of their status.

这是他们地位的一个很好的预测指标。

It's a good predictor of their fighting ability, all that kind of stuff.

它可以很好地预测他们的战斗能力，诸如此类的东西。

And if you're a female, that's a reasonable kind of choice to make, because if you have male offspring and females are predisposed to choose that, then your male offspring are going to do pretty well.

如果你是女性，那么这是一个合理的选择，因为如果你有男性后代，并且女性倾向于选择男性后代，那么你的男性后代会做得很好。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

So that's what we did, and we varied how much juice.

这就是我们所做的，我们改变了果汁的用量。

So sometimes monkeys would get paid, they'd have to give up juice to see the pictures.

所以有时猴子会得到报酬，但他们必须放弃果汁才能看到这些照片。

Sometimes they'd get paid more to see the pictures.

有时他们会因为看照片而得到更多报酬。

And what we did then is we construct a choice curve and we use the differential.

然后我们所做的是构建一条选择曲线并使用差异。

If it's not 50/50, if it slides one way or the other, it tells us that monkeys are paying X amount to see certain kinds of pictures, or you have to overpay them, right?

如果不是 50/50，如果它以一种或另一种方式滑动，它告诉我们猴子要支付 X 金额才能看到某些类型的图片，或者你必须多付钱给它们，对吧？

And so what did we find?

那么我们发现了什么？

It was really, I think, scientifically revealing, but it's pretty fun.

我认为这确实具有科学意义，但也很有趣。

People got it immediately.

人们立刻就明白了。

They will pay-

他们将支付——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Juice

果汁

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

...

...

juice.

果汁。

They will give up juice.

他们会放弃果汁。

They will pay it to see pictures of the perineum, the hindquarters of females.

他们会花钱看会阴（女性后躯）的照片。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

This was the original study.

这是最初的研究。

It was in male monkeys.

它发生在雄性猴子身上。

They will pay to see the faces of dominant males, and you had to pay them to see the faces of subordinate males, okay?

他们会花钱看占主导地位的男性的面孔，而你必须付钱给他们看从属男性的面孔，好吗？

So -

所以——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So females will give up juice to see the taints of testosterone-rich male monkeys, and male monkeys will pay juice to see the swollen taints of female monkeys-

所以雌性会为了看到富含睾酮的雄性猴子的污点而放弃果汁，而雄性猴子会为了看到雌性猴子肿胀的污点而付出果汁——

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

that are, because of the swelling-

那是因为肿胀——

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

indicates a better reproductive competence.

表明有较好的生殖能力。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Yes, better, now's the time.

是的，更好，现在是时候了。

The time is ripe-

时机已经成熟——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

...

...

okay, to mate.

好吧，交配。

But just in general, it's a signal that is what we would say is it's important.

但总的来说，这是一个信号，我们会说它很重要。

It has value.

它有价值。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Monkey porn.

猴子色情片。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

It's something you should try.

这是你应该尝试的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

And in fact, yeah, they're paying for it.

事实上，是的，他们正在为此付出代价。

So, it just blew up on the internet even back then.

所以，当时它就在互联网上炸开了锅。

It was like suddenly every website was like, "Oh, you've proven monkey porn," blah, blah, blah.

突然之间，每个网站都说，“哦，你已经证明了猴子色情片，”等等，等等。

It was kind of a fun ride.

这是一次有趣的旅程。

It was a New York Times Idea of the Year in 2005, which was, again, kind of shocking.

这是《纽约时报》2005 年年度创意，再次令人震惊。

There's like a little award on that.

好像有一个小奖励。

But it makes sense.

但这是有道理的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

And the thing I want to point out is that we ran this same experiment in people, not with unclothed humans.

我想指出的是，我们在人类身上进行了同样的实验，而不是在不穿衣服的人身上进行。

So we had to create our own stimulus set, because all the stimulus sets that were out there for visual studies of humans were a bunch of German people looking very dour.

所以我们必须创建自己的刺激集，因为所有用于人类视觉研究的刺激集都是一群看起来非常阴沉的德国人。

They were very well controlled, and we wanted something that was more natural.

它们控制得很好，我们想要更自然的东西。

So we downloaded thousands of photos from this website, hotornot.com.

因此，我们从这个网站 hotornot.com 下载了数千张照片。

I don't know if you recall that, but it was a website where you could upload pictures and people would rate you.

我不知道你是否还记得，那是一个你可以上传图片并且人们会给你评分的网站。

I mean, now it's like-

我的意思是，现在就像——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Probably wouldn't be allowed now.

现在可能不被允许了。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Would not be allowed.

不会被允许的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I remember Rate My Pet.

我记得评价我的宠物。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Rate My Pet, Rate My Professor, I think, which is still around.

我想，评价我的宠物，评价我的教授，这仍然存在。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And we're saying rate.

我们说的是比率。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Rate, yes.

评分，是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Rate.

率。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Rate.

率。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

With a T.

带有T。

My pet, yeah.

我的宠物，是的。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

But this was hotornot.com.

但这是 hotornot.com。

So you get all these really natural looking...

所以你会得到所有这些非常自然的外观......

And then we had, this was really funny though too.

然后我们就发现了，这也很有趣。

So we had separate groups of raters from the people who we actually tested in the experiment.

因此，我们将评估者与我们在实验中实际测试的人分开。

So we had a group of heterosexual males rating the female photos and vice versa.

所以我们有一群异性恋男性对女性照片进行评分，反之亦然。

And that was interesting in its own right.

这本身就很有趣。

So we were just trying to establish, we're not saying why they're attracted or anything like that, just let's measure it, okay?

所以我们只是想确定，我们并不是说他们为什么被吸引或者类似的事情，只是让我们来衡量一下，好吗？

And it was really fun because it was hard work.

这真的很有趣，因为这是艰苦的工作。

You have to do one every three seconds, and it took like an hour.

你必须每三秒做一次，花了大约一个小时。

When the women were done rating, they were like, "Phew, okay, I'm glad that's over." The hour's over, and our male raters were like, "Did you have any more?

当女性完成评分后，她们会说，“唷，好吧，我很高兴一切都结束了。”一个小时结束了，我们的男性评估者说：“你还有更多吗？

I'd be happy to sit here and rate more photographs for you."

我很乐意坐在这里为您评价更多照片。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Interesting.

有趣。

So women got tired of rating males for attractiveness.

因此，女性厌倦了评价男性的吸引力。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Males did not tire of rating females for attractiveness.

男性不厌其烦地评价女性的吸引力。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

They did not at all.

他们根本没有。

That's anecdotal, but it's still, I think it's revealing.

这是轶事，但我认为它仍然具有启发性。

Then we ran the pay-per-view experiment, just like in monkeys, on humans.

然后我们在人类身上进行了按次付费实验，就像在猴子身上一样。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Pay-per-view.

按次付费。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

And we also ran a couple of other standard economic tests.

我们还进行了一些其他标准经济测试。

One would be, how long are you willing to wait?

一是，你愿意等多久？

So that's a delay discounting.

所以这就是延迟折扣。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

In general, you will wait longer for a bigger reward than a smaller reward.

一般来说，与较小的奖励相比，您会等待更大的奖励更长的时间。

And also, how hard would you work?

还有，你会多努力工作？

And the work was like you had to alternate pressing two keys on a keyboard.

这项工作就像你必须交替按下键盘上的两个键。

It was really just menial, laborious, et cetera.

这实际上只是卑微、费力等等。

So, the two interesting, just sociologically, it's interesting what comes out of this.

所以，这两件事很有趣，从社会学角度来看，由此产生的结果很有趣。

Our female subjects basically wouldn't give up money.

我们女臣民基本上不会放弃金钱。

They were working for money.

他们是为了钱而工作。

They were hearing the sound of coins coming out of a slot machine, which was proportional to how much money they actually got.

他们听到老虎机发出硬币的声音，这与他们实际得到的钱成正比。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Real money.

真钱。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

For each choice.

对于每一个选择。

Real money.

真钱。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

If you ignored the pictures, you'd go home with $17 extra compared to if you were influenced by them.

如果你忽略这些照片，那么与受它们影响的情况相比，你回家时会多花 17 美元。

And the females did really well economically.

而且女性的经济状况确实很好。

So they pretty much ignored the pictures of the males, even though they were rated.

所以他们几乎忽略了男性的照片，尽管它们被评级了。

Even the ones that were super hot, they were not very concerned with that.

即使是那些非常热门的人，他们也不太关心这一点。

For the males, it was the exact opposite.

对于男性来说，情况恰恰相反。

So the males are giving up, essentially, they're paying, and they had thousands of trials.

因此，雄性实际上正在放弃，他们正在付出代价，并且他们进行了数千次试验。

They're paying somewhere between a half and three quarters of a cent to see images of women who were rated in the top third of attractiveness.

他们花费半美分到四分之三美分来观看被评为吸引力前三分之一的女性的照片。

They also would wait significantly longer, and they would work really hard.

他们也会等待更长的时间，并且会非常努力地工作。

It was like rats pressing for cocaine-

就像老鼠急需可卡因一样——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Wow

哇

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

...

...

quite literally, to keep those pictures up on the screen.

毫不夸张地说，就是将这些图片保留在屏幕上。

Okay, so that's the setting.

好吧，设定就是这样。

We've established in monkeys and in people, similar economic principles that are guiding social, you'd call it attention, social valuation, whatever.

我们在猴子和人类身上建立了类似的经济原则来指导社会，你可以称之为注意力、社会评价等等。

So we're like, "Okay, let's go look in the brain." So we did an fMRI experiment, measured blood flow to different parts of the brain.

所以我们就像，“好吧，让我们看看大脑。”所以我们做了一个功能磁共振成像实验，测量了大脑不同部位的血流量。

We only tested males, because they were the ones who displayed differential preferences there.

我们只测试了男性，因为他们是那些表现出不同偏好的人。

And what we found is that parts of the visual system that are involved in encoding faces, but then the reward system was activated and tracked linearly how much money these guys were paying to see images.

我们发现，视觉系统的一部分涉及对面孔进行编码，但随后奖励系统被激活并线性跟踪这些人为观看图像支付了多少钱。

There's basically the trade-off value, the currency, the translation of pictures into money.

基本上就是权衡价值、货币、将图片转化为金钱。

Okay?

好的？

Then in monkeys, we studied all the same areas, but now we could record from individual neurons in those areas rather than looking at blood flow, which is a crude proxy.

然后在猴子中，我们研究了所有相同的区域，但现在我们可以记录这些区域的单个神经元，而不是观察血流，这是一个粗略的替代指标。

And we found exactly the same thing, which is that neurons in the reward system were spontaneously and strongly activated by those pictures, that made sense, right?

我们发现了完全相同的事情，即奖励系统中的神经元被这些图片自发地强烈激活，这是有道理的，对吧？

So the pictures on the perinea of females by dominant male faces, and that correspondence, I thought, was pretty compelling, right?

因此，女性会阴部的照片由占主导地位的男性面孔绘制，我认为这种对应关系非常引人注目，对吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So these are brain areas that are involved in value-based decision making.

因此，这些大脑区域涉及基于价值的决策。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Not unlike the value-based decision making of tracking how many grooming events one received versus needs to give.

与基于价值的决策类似，即跟踪一个人接受了多少美容活动以及需要提供多少美容活动。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Or texts one has received or gives, or acts of service one trades for some other love language.

或者一个人收到或发出的短信，或者一个人用其他爱的语言交换的服务行为。

I mean, here I'm extrapolating to a lot of different themes, but talk about transactional.

我的意思是，在这里我推断出许多不同的主题，但谈论的是事务性的。

This implies that our neural circuitry, while flexible, we can trade two of those for one of those, or we can decide, I'm just going to be a selfless giver.

这意味着我们的神经回路虽然灵活，但我们可以用其中两个交换其中一个，或者我们可以决定，我只是成为一个无私的给予者。

That's a decision And that altruism, well, it certainly exists.

这是一个决定，而这种利他主义，嗯，它确实存在。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I mean, we fortunately see acts of altruism a lot.

我的意思是，幸运的是，我们经常看到利他主义的行为。

Probably not as much as humanity would be served by, but it exists.

也许不像人类所能得到的那么多，但它确实存在。

Altruism exists.

利他主义是存在的。

But nonetheless, there's a formula-

但无论如何，有一个公式——

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

that's maintained in the brain.

它保存在大脑中。

Like, "I'm going to do all this for nothing," and the circuit kind of understands that, versus, "I'm going to do this," but there's an expectation, maybe with a long latency, that at some point, it's going to be payback.

就像，“我要做这一切都是免费的”，电路有点理解这一点，而不是“我要做这件事”，但人们有一种期望，也许有很长的延迟，在某个时候，它会得到回报。

I expect to be paid back.

我期望得到回报。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

The idea of altruism has been very controversial within evolutionary biology for a long time, because it's hard to imagine a scenario in which being purely selfless-

长期以来，利他主义的概念在进化生物学中一直备受争议，因为很难想象纯粹无私的场景——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm

毫米

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

...

...

could persist if there was a genetic part of that, right?

如果有遗传因素的话，它就能持续存在，对吗？

If it were heritable.

如果可以遗传的话。

So that's why we have ideas of kin selection, like, "I will give up my life for eight of my cousins," for example.

这就是为什么我们有亲属选择的想法，例如，“我会为了我的八个表兄弟放弃我的生命”。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, right, and I was saying in parenting and taking care of young, we give selflessly, but there's this unconscious or semi-conscious backdrop, which is you want your own offspring to survive and flourish, and so it's not, quote-unquote, "really selfless," although in the short term, it can appear selfless.

嗯，对，我说的是在养育孩子和照顾孩子方面，我们无私地给予，但有一个无意识或半意识的背景，那就是你希望自己的后代生存和繁荣，所以它不是，引用不引用，“真正无私”，尽管在短期内，它可能会显得无私。

That's, I guess, the real evolutionary biology argument.

我想这才是真正的进化生物学论点。

I would say that in terms of just pure acts of giving, where we don't expect anything in return, I think most people that do that say, certainly I've had this experience, right?

我想说的是，就纯粹的给予行为而言，我们不期望任何回报，我想大多数这样做的人都会说，我当然有过这种经历，对吧？

It feels good.

感觉很好。

So there is a return on investment.

所以投资是有回报的。

It's just that the return doesn't come from somebody else doing something to reciprocate in the same domain, but it feels good.

只是回报不是来自于其他人在同一领域做某事来回报，但感觉很好。

There's nothing more impressive than an anonymous donor, right?

没有什么比匿名捐赠者更令人印象深刻的了，对吧？

Actually, I don't want to take us too far off track, but there's this idea in a lot of Europe that if somebody donates a lot of money to a cause, that they're doing philanthropy, that they're trying to hide something.

事实上，我不想让我们偏离轨道太远，但在欧洲很多地方都有这样一种想法，如果有人为某项事业捐赠大量资金，他们就是在做慈善事业，他们就是在试图隐瞒一些事情。

Whereas in this country, that tends to be not the case, although it's sort of growing, this idea that, oh, if somebody's giving a lot of money to a university, they want their name on the side of a building, they're really looking to kind of either hide other features of their life and/or they want respect, right?

而在这个国家，情况往往并非如此，尽管这种情况正在增长，这种想法是，哦，如果有人给一所大学捐了很多钱，他们希望自己的名字出现在建筑物的一侧，他们真的希望隐藏自己生活的其他特征和/或他们想要尊重，对吗？

They want fame.

他们想要名誉。

So it's kind of interesting.

所以这很有趣。

I like to believe in pure altruism.

我喜欢相信纯粹的利他主义。

It feels good to me to believe in true altruism.

相信真正的利他主义对我来说感觉很好。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

So I don't think this is settled, and I think this is where there's another feature of human and maybe human evolution, that humans and human evolution that's relevant here, which is that we may be one of the only organisms in which something called group selection might happen, right?

所以我认为这还没有解决，我认为这就是人类的另一个特征，也许是人类进化的另一个特征，人类和人类进化在这里相关，那就是我们可能是唯一可能发生群体选择的生物体之一，对吗？

And that's this idea that groups are competing with each other in addition to individuals competing and collaborating and competing.

这就是这样的想法：除了个人竞争、合作和竞争之外，群体之间还相互竞争。

And so that evolution might favor groups in which there are certain individuals who are, in a sense, wired to be selfless.

因此，进化可能有利于某些群体，其中某些个体在某种意义上天生是无私的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

And one of my colleagues at Penn, a guy named Duncan Watts, has done these really interesting experiments where he ran these massive online prisoner's dilemma games, where people are having to decide whether to either support their partner or defect, essentially.

我在宾夕法尼亚大学的一位同事，一个名叫邓肯·瓦茨的人，做了这些非常有趣的实验，他运行了这些大规模的在线囚徒困境游戏，人们必须决定是支持他们的伴侣还是背叛。

But what was unusual about these games is he let people play them over and over again, hundreds and hundreds of times.

但这些游戏的不同寻常之处在于，他让人们一遍又一遍地玩它们，数百次。

And what typically happens is once you've experienced the fact that if you cooperate, you're going to get screwed eventually, then everybody just says, "I'm just screwing the other guy from here on out." But he identified that there's a population of 20% of people, I think, something like that, who are persistent cooperators.

通常发生的情况是，一旦你经历了这样一个事实：如果你合作，你最终会被搞砸，然后每个人都会说，“从现在开始我只是在搞另一个人。”但他发现，我认为有 20% 的人是坚持合作的人。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Hmm.

嗯。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Who cooperate no matter what their experience.

无论他们的经验如何，他们都会合作。

And that is resonant with this idea from group selection, that groups that had individuals who were cooperators, who were selfless no matter what, might out-compete other groups, right?

这与群体选择的想法相一致，即拥有合作者、无论如何都是无私的个体的群体可能会在竞争中胜过其他群体，对吗？

And I think that's a really interesting idea.

我认为这是一个非常有趣的想法。

I want to circle back to what you were saying about the feel good, like when you give.

我想回到你所说的关于感觉良好的话题，就像你给予的时候一样。

There's a real substrate to that, if we can engage in a little reverse inference, which is that, and this was shown actually a couple of decades ago by a neuroeconomist named Bill Harbaugh for the first time, which is that when you give to a charity that you love, you see activation of reward circuitry that looks just like if you got the reward yourself, right?

如果我们能进行一点反向推论的话，这有一个真正的基础，那就是，几十年前，一位名叫比尔·哈博的神经经济学家首次证明了这一点，那就是，当你向你喜爱的慈善机构捐款时，你会看到奖励电路的激活，看起来就像你自己得到了奖励一样，对吧？

So it's like if I give to, whatever, March of Dimes or something, and that's what I love, then it, in essence, feels good to me.

所以，就像如果我捐赠给《March of Dimes》之类的东西，而这就是我所喜欢的，那么它本质上对我来说感觉很好。

And that reward system activation, right, is the thing that, through dopamine, reinforces behavior.

奖励系统的激活，没错，就是通过多巴胺强化行为。

So when you have that warm glow, it makes you more likely to do that again in the future.

因此，当你拥有那种温暖的光芒时，你将来更有可能再次这样做。

It's a self-reinforcing signal.

这是一个自我强化的信号。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love that those sorts of circuits exist because they seem to serve the greater good, and I'm not trying to rub away our more, I don't know, harsher features of primate brain wiring, but they're all in there.

我喜欢这些类型的电路的存在，因为它们似乎服务于更大的利益，我并不想抹去灵长类动物大脑线路的更多，我不知道，更严酷的特征，但它们都在那里。

So, speaking of which, are there external signals besides muscularity, jaw shape, et cetera, that relate to levels of testosterone in male humans that are transient?

那么，说到这里，除了肌肉发达、下巴形状等之外，是否还有与男性短暂的睾酮水平相关的外部信号呢？

The male hormones don't cycle as robustly as female hormones because of the lack of a menstrual cycle.

由于缺乏月经周期，男性荷尔蒙的循环不如女性荷尔蒙强劲。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They might change with age, et cetera, but is there anything that signals testosterone or free testosterone level Certainly stress hormone level is signaled, quaking of hands, that kind of thing.

它们可能会随着年龄等的变化而变化，但是有没有任何东西可以表明睾酮或游离睾酮水平？当然，压力荷尔蒙水平是有信号的，比如手的颤抖之类的。

But what about testosterone signaling that is independent of the vigor display stuff that we normally hear about?

但是，与我们通常听到的活力显示无关的睾酮信号又如何呢？

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

It's a good question.

这是一个好问题。

I think it's important, as you pointed out, that it doesn't vary too much over weeks or months or anything like that.

正如您所指出的，我认为重要的是，它不会在几周或几个月或类似的时间内发生太大变化。

It's pretty stable.

是相当稳定的。

But well, one thing we can think about is work done by my colleague, Gitty Naveh, who's in the marketing department at Wharton, and working with Colin Camerer, actually out here at Caltech.

但是，我们可以考虑的一件事是我的同事吉蒂·纳维 (Gitty Naveh) 所做的工作，他在沃顿商学院营销部门工作，并与科林·卡默勒 (Colin Camerer) 一起工作，实际上在加州理工学院。

These are a number of studies, not where they are measuring testosterone, but doing very well-controlled placebo trials of applying testosterone gel versus something that you didn't know which arm you were getting.

这些研究不是测量睾酮，而是进行非常严格对照的安慰剂试验，即应用睾酮凝胶与您不知道自己使用的是哪只手臂的东西进行比较。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So testosterone versus placebo.

所以睾丸激素与安慰剂。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Versus placebo.

与安慰剂相比。

Yeah.

是的。

And measuring things like desire for conspicuous consumption, so buying luxury cars or things like that, or other things are their cognitive reflection, like they're really bad at -- They start to fail on things that require not just giving the simple answer.

衡量诸如炫耀性消费的欲望之类的东西，购买豪华车或类似的东西，或其他东西是他们的认知反映，就像他们真的不擅长一样——他们开始在那些需要不仅仅给出简单答案的事情上失败。

They become more risk-taking.

他们变得更加敢于冒险。

So there's a number of features that we I think collectively anecdotally think of as being hyper-masculine, associated with testosterone.

因此，我认为有很多特征被我们集体认为是超男性化的，与睾丸激素有关。

Like you want to signal you're a big guy, you take more risks.

就像你想表明自己是个大人物一样，你会承担更多的风险。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And you're less reflective.

而且你的反思能力较差。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

You display more, and you're less reflective.

你表现得更多，而反思更少。

And I'm going to screw it up right now if I actually tried to give you the question.

如果我真的想问你这个问题，我现在就会搞砸了。

But it's like a bat and a ball cost $1.10 together.

但这就像一根球棒和一个球总共要花费 1.10 美元。

I'm going to screw it up, and then you're going to say, "Well, you lack cognitive reflection." Let's just leave that aside.

我会把它搞砸，然后你会说，“好吧，你缺乏认知反思。”让我们把它放在一边。

But then they're much more likely to give the wrong answer, jump to the conclusion, which seems obvious, but it's wrong.

但随后他们更有可能给出错误的答案，跳出结论，这似乎是显而易见的，但却是错误的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So higher testosterone, more impulsive with-

所以睾丸激素越高，就越冲动-

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

responses, less reflective.

反应，较少反思。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Tend to be wrong more often.

往往会更频繁地犯错。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yes.

是的。

But more confident.

但更加自信。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But more confident.

但更加自信。

More risk-taking, that kind of thing.

更大的冒险精神，诸如此类。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

More risk-taking.

更具冒险精神。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's a kind of okay, fully expected one.

这是一种很好的、完全符合预期的情况。

And I guess the purchasing items that signal wealth or status.

我猜想购买的物品象征着财富或地位。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

It's a display.

这是一个显示器。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Got it.

明白了。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

So think of it as like the chimpanzee.

所以把它想象成黑猩猩。

When researchers first went out to study chimpanzees in Africa, and then they had generators or whatnot around, and they had these big gasoline cans or whatever, and one of the male chimps discovered that he could take these cans and run around the group, banging them together -

当研究人员第一次去非洲研究黑猩猩时，他们周围有发电机之类的东西，还有这些大汽油罐之类的东西，其中一只雄性黑猩猩发现他可以拿着这些罐子在群体中跑来跑去，把它们撞在一起——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Cool

酷

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

...

...

and getting a lot of attention.

并受到很多关注。

Which is similar, you see them up in a tree and trying to-

这很相似，你看到他们在树上并试图-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, vigor display.

是啊，活力的展现。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Vigor display, displaying the -- Yeah, just grabbing, I think, so much of its attention.

活力展示，展示——是的，我想，只是吸引了很多注意力。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Just look at me.

看看我吧。

And I think that's what you've got going on with this sort of buying a Jaguar or whatever.

我认为这就是你购买捷豹或其他汽车时所面临的情况。

It's like-

这就像——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Or people are trying to signal what they don't actually have, right?

或者人们试图表明他们实际上没有的东西，对吗？

It's tricky because now you can buy things on credit.

这很棘手，因为现在你可以赊购东西。

There are a bunch of jokes about Los Angeles that can be made here.

这里可以开很多关于洛杉矶的笑话。

I grew up in the Bay Area, and there are areas of the Bay Area where there's a tremendous amount of wealth.

我在湾区长大，湾区的一些地区拥有巨大的财富。

And my dad used to always say, "Up here, wealth is really kind of hidden back in the trees, literally.

我父亲过去总是说：“在这里，财富确实隐藏在树后，毫不夸张。

You go to LA and there's all this display through stuff." It depends on where you are in LA.

你去洛杉矶，就会看到所有这些东西的展示。”这取决于您在洛杉矶的哪个地方。

But it's largely true.

但这在很大程度上是正确的。

Let me put it this way, you see a lot more yellow Lamborghinis here than you do in Portola Valley, but I'll be willing to bet that there's far more money in Portola Valley than there is in all of Rodeo Drive in Los Angeles, if you really just looked at actual net worth.

让我这么说吧，你在这里看到的黄色兰博基尼比波托拉谷多得多，但我愿意打赌，波托拉谷的钱比洛杉矶罗迪欧大道的钱多得多，如果你真的只看实际净资产的话。

Not an experiment I want to run-

这不是我想要进行的实验-

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

but I'd be willing to bet one entire limb of somebody's choice to run that experiment.

但我愿意用某人的整个选择来打赌来进行这个实验。

And so there is this kind of strange thing where the display of vigor is so flexible in humans, right?

所以就有了这种奇怪的事情，人类的气力的发挥竟然如此灵活，对吧？

Nowadays, there's a lot of discussion about billionaires signaling more traditional or primitive forms of vigor, like fighting ability or muscle.

如今，有很多关于亿万富翁表现出更传统或原始形式活力的讨论，比如战斗能力或肌肉。

And I think part of the reason for that is that the concept of a billion dollars is very hard for most people to conceptualize as an operational thing, like what they would do with it and how it would impact their level of happiness, which is probably actually very little, et cetera.

我认为部分原因是，对于大多数人来说，十亿美元的概念很难概念化为一个可操作的东西，比如他们会用它做什么以及它将如何影响他们的幸福水平，而幸福水平实际上可能很小，等等。

But we can assess physical qualities so readily.

但我们可以很容易地评估身体素质。

And so, anyway, I guess that this is really just my way of taking us back to this idea of valuation, like how we place value on a potential mate or a friend or a coworker.

所以，无论如何，我想这实际上只是我让我们回到这种估值理念的方式，就像我们如何评价潜在的伴侣、朋友或同事的价值一样。

It sounds so transactional, but clearly the brain is performing these operations all the time, and it's highly variable depending on who you are, the social context you live in.

这听起来很事务性，但显然大脑一直在执行这些操作，并且它的变化很大，具体取决于你是谁、你生活的社会环境。

And yet these hormones, especially testosterone and estrogen, seem to really be playing with the volume-

然而这些激素，尤其是睾酮和雌激素，似乎确实在发挥作用——

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Absolutely

绝对

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

or the gain on all of this stuff.

或所有这些东西的收益。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yep.

是的。

That's exactly it.

就是这样。

And in fact, that's how I think about all -- We can think about oxytocin the same way, as like a volume knob for pro-social interactions in general, and testosterone.

事实上，这就是我对所有事情的看法——我们可以用同样的方式来思考催产素，就像一般亲社会互动的音量旋钮，以及睾丸激素。

So I think that works.

所以我认为这是可行的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。

Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.

去年，在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我成为了 Function 成员。

Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health.

Function 提供 100 多项高级实验室测试，为您提供整个身体健康状况的关键快照。

This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more.

此快照为您提供有关心脏健康、激素健康、免疫功能、营养水平等方面的见解。

They've also recently added tests for toxins, such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics, and tests for PFAS, or forever chemicals.

他们最近还增加了毒素测试，例如有害塑料中的 BPA 暴露，以及 PFAS 或永久化学物质的测试。

Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas.

Function 不仅提供对您的身心健康至关重要的 100 多种生物标记物的测试，而且还分析这些结果并提供相关领域专家的顶级医生的见解。

For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood.

例如，在我第一次使用 Function 进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量升高。

Function not only helped me detect that but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification.

功能不仅帮助我发现了这一点，还提供了如何最好地降低汞含量的见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼消费，我一直在吃大量金枪鱼​​，同时还努力多吃绿叶蔬菜并补充 NAC、N-乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒。

And I should say, by taking a second Function test, that approach worked.

我应该说，通过进行第二次功能测试，这种方法奏效了。

Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important.

全面的血液检测至关重要。

There's so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test.

有很多与您的心理和身体健康相关的事情只能通过血液检查来检测。

The problem is, blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated.

问题是，血液检测一直非常昂贵且复杂。

In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost.

相比之下，Function 的简单性和成本水平给我留下了深刻的印象。

It is very affordable.

这是非常实惠的。

As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.

因此，我决定加入他们的科学顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。

If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman.

如果您想尝试 Function，可以访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。

Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman podcast listeners.

Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等待名单，但他们正在为 Huberman 播客听众提供早期访问服务。

Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.

同样，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。

Let's talk about oxytocin.

我们来谈谈催产素。

We hear about it as the love hormone, the affiliative hormone.

我们听说它是爱情荷尔蒙、亲和荷尔蒙。

Folks, it's a neurohormone, so somewhere in between a neuromodulator and a hormone.

各位，它是一种神经激素，介于神经调节剂和激素之间。

Let's set all that aside, all the mechanistic stuff, and I'd love to know your knowledge about what changing levels of oxytocin does to perception, to behavior.

让我们把所有这些，所有机械的东西放在一边，我很想知道你对催产素水平变化对感知和行为有何影响的了解。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Humans and all that.

人类等等。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

So yeah, oxytocin, we've been interested in it for a long time because, as you said, it seems to be a dial that can turn up or turn down certain aspects of social behavior and other aspects of mental and emotional function.

所以，是的，催产素，我们长期以来一直对它感兴趣，因为正如你所说，它似乎是一个可以调高或调低社会行为某些方面以及精神和情感功能其他方面的旋钮。

It's important to point out that oxytocin and its sister neurohormone, vasopressin, arginine vasopressin, which is maybe a little more important in males than in females.

需要指出的是，催产素及其姊妹神经激素、加压素、精氨酸加压素对男性可能比女性更重要。

In females, oxytocin is a little more important.

对于女性来说，催产素更为重要。

But they're in both, and they've been around a long time.

但它们两者都存在，而且已经存在很长时间了。

They're very early in vertebrate evolution.

它们处于脊椎动物进化的早期阶段。

In mammals, oxytocin has the primary role of helping to build bonds between mom and babies.

在哺乳动物中，催产素的主要作用是帮助建立妈妈和婴儿之间的联系。

So oxytocin's released during childbirth, it's released when mom is nursing.

所以催产素在分娩时释放，在妈妈哺乳时释放。

And it seems that in humans and some other really social creatures, it's now been co-opted to have that similar kind of role in the relationships you have with other people who are not your offspring or your pair mate.

似乎在人类和其他一些真正的社会性生物中，它现在已经被选择在你与非你的后代或伴侣的其他人的关系中扮演类似的角色。

Because oxytocin, for example, is released when you orgasm.

例如，因为当您达到性高潮时，会释放催产素。

And so then that's thought to be why that sort of pillow talk afterward is more engaging, and people feel things at that time that are different from what they would've felt before.

因此，这被认为是为什么事后的枕边谈话更有吸引力，人们当时的感受与他们之前的感受不同。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It fosters attachment.

它培养依恋。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Fosters attachment, that's a good way of putting it.

培养依恋，这是一个很好的表达方式。

So oxytocin levels are hard to measure.

因此催产素水平很难测量。

You can measure at a distance in the periphery in the blood, but it's not exactly one-to-one correlated with what's going on in the brain, and in general, we don't want to put a pump or a little thing in your brain that we could measure how much is in there.

你可以在血液中的外围进行一定距离的测量，但它与大脑中发生的情况并不完全一对一相关，一般来说，我们不想在你的大脑中放置一个泵或一个小东西，以便我们可以测量其中有多少。

So instead, what is often done is to look at what happens if you introduce more oxytocin than you normally have into the brain.

因此，人们经常做的是观察如果向大脑引入比正常情况更多的催产素会发生什么。

You can't inject it or anything like that.

你不能注射它或类似的东西。

And the way that it's typically applied is to squirt it up your nose or inhale it intranasally.

通常的使用方法是将其喷入鼻子或鼻内吸入。

So it then is taken up by the nerves that are in your sinuses and whatnot and then goes into the brain.

然后它被鼻窦之类的神经吸收，然后进入大脑。

That was what it was thought to.

这就是它的想法。

I think that we were the first to show that that's actually how it works.

我认为我们是第一个证明这实际上是如何运作的。

We did all the work in monkeys, where all these things are just sort of easier to do, and the behavior's a little bit less complex, so our readouts are, I think, a bit more straightforward.

我们在猴子身上做了所有的工作，所有这些事情都更容易做，而且行为也不那么复杂，所以我认为我们的读数更简单一些。

In the human studies, it's controversial because there's some crap studies, and there's just a lot of variability in the effects across studies, and I think some of that's just because you ask people to squirt it up their own noses, and so that introduces variation in just how good they were at getting it in the right place.

在人类研究中，它是有争议的，因为有一些垃圾研究，而且不同研究的效果存在很大差异，我认为其中一些只是因为你要求人们把它喷到自己的鼻子里，所以这会导致他们在正确的地方有多好。

With the monkeys, what we did instead is we used what's called a nebulizer or aerosolizer.

对于猴子，我们所做的是使用所谓的雾化器或气雾器。

I had noticed when my kid had pneumonia, and I took him to the ER, they put this mask on him, and they mist this albuterol, which opened up his airways.

我注意到我的孩子得了肺炎，我带他去急诊室，他们给他戴上这个面罩，然后喷上沙丁胺醇，这样可以打开他的呼吸道。

Oh, we could do that with oxytocin, too.

哦，我们也可以用催产素做到这一点。

So that's what we do with the monkeys.

这就是我们对猴子所做的事情。

It makes sure they get a really good dose, and then we show that that gets right into the brain.

它确保他们得到真正好的剂量，然后我们证明它可以直接进入大脑。

Okay, now that puts us in a position to ask questions of what does it do?

好的，现在我们可以问它有什么作用了？

Well, one of the first things that oxytocin does is it relaxes you.

嗯，催产素首先要做的事情之一就是让你放松。

So just overall, you were talking about autonomic function, it's a relaxer.

总的来说，你谈论的是自主功能，它是一种放松剂。

It's an anxiolytic.

这是一种抗焦虑药。

And in monkeys, what that does is it reduces their vigilance to any threats.

对于猴子来说，这会降低它们对任何威胁的警惕性。

So they're just a lot more chill.

所以他们只是更加冷静。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

So that's sort of a primary thing.

所以这是一个首要的事情。

And then we've looked at how it affects their behavior in males and females separately because, as I said before, first of all, males and females have different strategies and behaviors, and the expression of where oxytocin receptors are in the brain, et cetera, and vasopressin receptors are a little bit different.

然后我们分别研究了它如何影响男性和女性的行为，因为正如我之前所说，首先，男性和女性有不同的策略和行为，催产素受体在大脑中的位置等等以及加压素受体的表达也有一点不同。

In male monkeys, it's super interesting because we've been talking about how dominance and rhesus macaques have this really steep hierarchy.

在雄性猴子中，这非常有趣，因为我们一直在讨论支配性猕猴和恒河猴如何具有如此陡峭的等级制度。

And one of the things we found right away is that you give oxytocin and it just flattens the hierarchy.

我们立即发现的一件事是，你给予催产素，它只会使层次结构变得平坦。

So the dominant male monkeys become super chill and friendly, and the subordinate ones become a bit bolder.

因此，占主导地位的雄性猴子变得超级冷漠和友好，而处于下属地位的雄性猴子则变得更加大胆。

Perhaps because, if I dosed you with oxytocin, it'd change your behavior, which would change my behavior, so it reverberates-

也许是因为，如果我给你注射催产素，它会改变你的行为，这也会改变我的行为，所以它会产生反响——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm

毫米

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

...

...

across individuals.

跨个人。

So it flattens the hierarchy.

因此它使层次结构扁平化。

They spend more time making eye contact, they pay more attention to the other individual, and we've shown that-

他们花更多的时间进行目光接触，他们更加关注对方，我们已经证明——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's Burning Man.

这是火人节。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah, it's true.

是的，这是真的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I've never been to Burning Man.

我从来没有去过火人节。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

I've never either, but-

我也从来没有，但是-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But this is what I hear.

但这就是我听到的。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

No, I think that's the right point, and I'll circle back to that because we also showed that in a task-based situation where a monkey can choose, we gave monkeys choices of whether they could give a reward to themself, to another monkey, to a bottle they could collect reward, in case they just like to see juice dripping out.

不，我认为这是正确的观点，我会回到这一点，因为我们还表明，在猴子可以选择的基于任务的情况下，我们让猴子选择是否可以给自己奖励，给另一只猴子，给他们可以收集奖励的瓶子，以防它们只是喜欢看到果汁滴出来。

And they would become more pro-social.

他们会变得更加亲社会。

So they're much more likely to give a reward to another monkey.

所以他们更有可能给予另一只猴子奖励。

They're more altruistic as we talked about earlier.

正如我们之前谈到的，他们更加无私。

It looks like a real pro-social kind of thing, right?

这看起来像是真正的亲社会的事情，对吧？

Which I think is super interesting.

我认为这非常有趣。

In females, it's a little bit different.

对于女性来说，情况略有不同。

The females become nicer to each other, and we see the greater eye contact, et cetera, but they become more aggressive toward males.

雌性彼此之间变得更好，我们看到更多的目光接触等等，但它们对雄性变得更具攻击性。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

And we speculate, I think it's the hypothesis, that because oxytocin is released when you've got an infant, basically, for females, males are a bigger threat then.

我们推测，我认为这是一个假设，因为当你生下婴儿时，催产素会被释放，基本上，对于女性来说，男性是一个更大的威胁。

Because in many primate societies and other mammals, males sometimes can be infanticidal because if they kill off a female's infant, then that will bring that female into receptivity for mating much more quickly.

因为在许多灵长类社会和其他哺乳动物中，雄性有时会杀婴，因为如果它们杀死雌性的婴儿，那么雌性就会更快地接受交配。

And so that's sort of the-

所以这就是-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Brutal

残酷

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

...

...

evolutionary.

进化的。

Yeah, it is brutal, the evolutionary rationale behind that.

是的，这背后的进化论原理很残酷。

So that's our supposition.

这就是我们的假设。

The other thing that I thought was really interesting as well is we find an increase in the synchronization of behavior.

我认为非常有趣的另一件事是我们发现行为同步性有所增加。

You know this idea of mirroring?

你知道镜像这个概念吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Which has been talked about in business context for a long time.

这在商业环境中已经被讨论了很长时间。

It's a real thing, and it's a marker of a good relationship, a strong relationship.

这是真实的事情，它是良好关系、牢固关系的标志。

If you have good rapport with somebody, you tend to adopt the similar movements and postures, and if you do those things-

如果你和某人关系融洽，你往往会采取相似的动作和姿势，如果你做这些事情——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Shirts.

衬衫。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Shirts.

衬衫。

Exactly.

确切地。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm just kidding.

我只是开玩笑。

We didn't coordinate here.

我们这里没有协调。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah, similar clothes.

嗯，类似的衣服。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You just happen to be a great dresser.

你只是碰巧是一位出色的着装者。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Oh, well.

哦，好吧。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Same here.

这里也一样。

Actually, if you do those things, if I subtly mirror you, and I'm in a job interview, I'm more likely to get the job, going to get a higher salary, et cetera.

事实上，如果你做了这些事情，如果我巧妙地模仿你，并且我正在参加工作面试，我就更有可能得到这份工作，获得更高的薪水，等等。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Really?

真的吗？

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

All those sort of good things.

所有这些好东西。

So oxytocin turns up behavioral synchrony, and one of the things, this is something I've been fascinated in for the last decade, and we and a lot of other people have been working on, is that this synchrony, the behavioral and neural level, physiological synchrony, it's this black magic of social behavior.

所以催产素会产生行为同步性，其中一件事，这是我在过去十年里一直着迷的事情，我们和许多其他人一直在研究，就是这种同步性，行为和神经水平，生理同步性，这是社会行为的黑魔法。

It's the glue that allows us to live and work together.

它是我们共同生活和工作的粘合剂。

So the observation is that if you and I, we have a good rapport here, let's say.

所以观察结果是，如果你和我，我们在这里关系很好，可以这么说。

If we are measuring activity in our brains right now, we'd see that they were coming into alignment.

如果我们现在测量大脑的活动，我们会发现它们正在协调一致。

So they might've been very disparate when I arrived here and you arrived here today, and as we've grown closer, and we discovered things that are similar about us, that our mindsets and our emotional sets are more overlapping.

因此，当我到达这里和你今天到达这里时，他们可能非常不同，随着我们变得更加亲密，我们发现了我们的相似之处，我们的心态和情绪更加重叠。

So we see this world more similarly, we feel more similarly about it.

所以我们对这个世界的看法更加相似，我们对它的感受也更加相似。

We're more likely to take similar decisions, and the coolest thing is this reverberates down to your body.

我们更有可能做出类似的决定，最酷的事情是这会影响到您的身体。

So if our brains begin to align, our hearts actually begin to beat together, even if we have different resting heart rates.

因此，如果我们的大脑开始协调，我们的心脏实际上就会开始一起跳动，即使我们的静息心率不同。

We begin to breathe together, and you start to move together, and you start to look at the same things in the environment.

我们开始一起呼吸，你们开始一起移动，你们开始观察环境中相同的事物。

We've talked about attention.

我们已经讨论过注意力。

When you look at the same thing, you're getting the same data, and that feedback loop, which I think now you can see that that is a way to coordinate behavior.

当你查看相同的事物时，你会得到相同的数据和反馈循环，我认为现在你可以看到这是协调行为的一种方式。

That's our secret sauce as a species-

这是我们作为一个物种的秘密武器——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

...

...

which is that we can collaborate and do things together, and it seems too, like oxytocin, vasopressin are involved in this as a way of turning up the dial on synchrony.

也就是说，我们可以合作并一起做事，似乎催产素、加压素也参与其中，作为一种同步转动表盘的方式。

It seemed to turn up the so-called social brain network, and then that synchrony is the glue, and it's a biomarker, a biological marker of a close relationship that predicts better communication, increased trust, better teamwork, whether your marriage is going to last.

它似乎打开了所谓的社交大脑网络，然后同步性就是粘合剂，它是一种生物标记，一种亲密关系的生物标记，可以预测更好的沟通，增加信任，更好的团队合作，以及你的婚姻是否会持续。

The things that it predicts, group decision-making, so we showed that in a business context.

它预测的事情，群体决策，所以我们在商业环境中展示了这一点。

Committees that are more in sync with each other, their hearts are beating together, are more likely to reach the right decision in a really difficult problem than committees that are not.

那些彼此更加同步、心心相通的委员会，比那些不同步的委员会更有可能在真正困难的问题上做出正确的决定。

The cool thing is that now that you have a biomarker, you can hack that, right?

最酷的是，既然你有了生物标记，你就可以破解它，对吗？

In the sense that now we can start looking at all those trust-building exercises or anything else that we're supposed to turn things up, turn up the dial on teamwork or communication, and we have a readout, and we could say, "Yeah, that's working.

从某种意义上说，现在我们可以开始研究所有那些建立信任的练习或任何其他我们应该提高的东西，调高团队合作或沟通的旋钮，我们有一个读数，我们可以说，“是的，这很有效。

That's actually doing the thing.

这实际上就是在做事情。

It's not BS," right?

这不是废话，”对吧？

You should invest your time and energy in that rather than something else.

你应该把时间和精力投入到这件事上，而不是其他事情上。

Now, we've been working through this list as well as others.

现在，我们一直在研究这个列表以及其他列表。

There's a whole host of things That seem to actually turn up synchrony, and that's a shortcut to team chemistry.

有很多事情似乎实际上可以实现同步，这是团队化学反应的捷径。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So interesting.

太有趣了。

I'm sure you're familiar with the molecule, MDMA, AKA ecstasy.

我相信您熟悉 MDMA 分子，又名摇头丸。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Never taken.

从来没有采取过。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I have.

我有。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

High on my list.

在我的名单上名列前茅。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, I have.

是的，我有。

It's an illegal drug, but-

这是一种违禁药物，但是——

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

if you are part of a clinical trial exploring MDMA, then you can do it legally.

如果您参与探索 MDMA 的临床试验，那么您可以合法地进行。

If you're not, you're breaking the law.

如果你不这样做，你就违法了。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So, methylene dioxymethamphetamine, it's very interesting because it dramatically increases dopamine, but not nearly as much as it increases serotonin.

因此，亚甲基二氧基甲基苯丙胺非常有趣，因为它可以显着增加多巴胺，但其增加的程度远不及增加血清素的程度。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it also leads to enormous increases in oxytocin.

它还会导致催产素大量增加。

And it's not really a classic psychedelic, it's an empathogen.

它并不是真正的经典迷幻剂，而是一种移情剂。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it has unique properties in that it raises dopamine and serotonin simultaneously.

它具有独特的特性，可以同时提高多巴胺和血清素。

That's unusual among-

这在当中很不寻常——

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

compounds.

化合物。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Like amphetamine, dopamine, epinephrine, psilocybin, serotonin, broadly speaking.

广义上来说，就像安非他明、多巴胺、肾上腺素、裸盖菇素、血清素。

There's a really nice experiment that was done trying to isolate the effects of dopamine versus serotonin versus oxytocin-

有一个非常好的实验，试图分离多巴胺、血清素和催产素的影响——

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

on the empathogenic effect.

关于移情作用。

And by administering different drugs, and in the case of oxytocin, oxytocin directly, what they basically concluded was that oxytocin has very little, if anything, to do with the empathogenic aspects of MDMA.

通过使用不同的药物，就催产素而言，直接使用催产素，他们基本上得出的结论是，催产素与 MDMA 的共情作用几乎没有关系（如果有的话）。

But if I recall correctly, and I'd have to go back and look at this, but if I recall correctly, it had a profound impact on, as you pointed out, the reducing anxiety.

但如果我没记错的话，我必须回去看看这个，但如果我没记错的话，正如你所指出的，它对减少焦虑产生了深远的影响。

And that reduction in anxiety brings us back to this idea that, as we change the tide of autonomic arousal, things become more or less available to us in terms of emotions and behavior.

焦虑的减少让我们回到了这样一个想法：当我们改变自主唤醒的趋势时，我们在情绪和行为方面或多或少会变得更容易接受事物。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So I find oxytocin to just be a spectacularly interesting compound for so many reasons, but perhaps for that reason more than all the others.

因此，我发现催产素是一种非常有趣的化合物，原因有很多，但也许这个原因比其他所有原因都重要。

That it's like it's our own affiliative, as you said, anxiolytic.

正如你所说，这就像我们自己的附属机构，抗焦虑剂。

Did I pronounce that correctly?

我的发音正确吗？

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

I never actually said that word out loud.

我实际上从未大声说过这个词。

I've written it many times, but-

我已经写过很多次了，但是——

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

It's kind of, when I said it, I was worried that maybe I'm saying the opposite.

当我这么说的时候，我有点担心我说的可能是相反的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Or anxiolytic?

还是抗焦虑药？

Or is it anxi- Anyway.

或者是 anxi- 无论如何。

Reduces anxiety, folks.

减少焦虑，伙计们。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Chills you out.

让你凉快下来。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Chills you out.

让你凉快下来。

And I think that's so interesting that oxytocin can be evoked by all these different types of stimuli.

我认为这非常有趣，所有这些不同类型的刺激都可以激发催产素。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So, as you mentioned, it's like post-coital or post-orgasmic.

所以，正如你提到的，这就像性交后或性高潮后。

But it can be elicited by non-sexual affiliative touch.

但它可以通过非性的亲和接触来引发。

There's actually really interesting evidence that, and this led to this question about whether or not cesarean sections versus-

实际上有非常有趣的证据表明，这引发了这个问题，即剖腹产是否与-

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

traditional vaginal births are they truly equal in terms of their effect on the fetus?

传统的阴道分娩对胎儿的影响真的相同吗？

And it does seem to be, at least in rodent models, that the passage through the vaginal canal during birth helps stimulate oxytocin, that it has a bidirectional effect on the mother-infant relationship.

至少在啮齿动物模型中，出生时通过阴道管似乎确实有助于刺激催产素，这对母婴关系具有双向影响。

Is there any evidence of that in primates as well?

在灵长类动物中也有这样的证据吗？

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

I know the evidence that you're talking about.

我知道你所说的证据。

I don't know of evidence in primates for that.

我不知道灵长类动物有这方面的证据。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

But I think I'd like to circle back to what you talked about in terms of social touch.

但我想我想回到你谈到的社交接触方面。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Which I think is a really, especially right now, today, I think is a very important topic to consider.

我认为这是一个非常重要的话题，尤其是现在，我认为这是一个需要考虑的非常重要的话题。

So we, like other primates, we have these, they're actually unspecialized sensors in our skin, the hairy parts of our skin, like your arm, whatever.

所以我们，像其他灵长类动物一样，我们有这些，它们实际上是我们皮肤中的非专门传感器，我们皮肤的毛茸茸的部分，比如你的手臂，等等。

And they provide input, essentially, to a system that releases oxytocin directly, and that's basically all they do.

本质上，它们向直接释放催产素的系统提供输入，这基本上就是它们所做的全部。

They're really bad at telling you exactly where or what's being done or how much pressure, but they operate best at body temperature.

它们确实不擅长告诉你具体在哪里、做了什么或者有多大压力，但它们在体温下工作得最好。

So you're being touched with a body temperature stimulus, and in a way that's what we would consider to be very pleasant, like getting tickies.

所以你会受到体温刺激的触碰，在某种程度上，我们认为这是非常令人愉快的，就像蜱虫一样。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

It's like grooming.

这就像梳洗。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yep.

是的。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Like this is the same thing as grooming in monkeys, and so it tells us that this is an ancient part of our heritage to building relationships, which is actually through social touch, right?

就像这与猴子的梳理毛发是一样的，所以它告诉我们，这是我们建立关系的传统的一个古老部分，这实际上是通过社交接触，对吧？

And it's been said, and I think reasonably, that we're living through an epidemic of the loss of social touch.

有人说，而且我认为这是合理的，我们正在经历一场失去社交接触的流行病。

For a lot of good reasons, right?

有很多充分的理由，对吧？

Because of raising awareness of inappropriate touch, et cetera.

因为提高了对不当触摸等的认识。

But now it's almost as if we've swung the pendulum too hard in one direction, which is that we're being robbed of this very natural, intrinsic signaling mechanism for building bonds that humans would normally, in the past, have benefited greatly from.

但现在，我们似乎把钟摆朝一个方向摆得太猛了，也就是说，我们被剥夺了这种非常自然的、内在的信号机制，用于建立纽带，而在过去，人类通常会从中受益匪浅。

And it's not clear how we move forward in terms of replacing that.

目前尚不清楚我们如何在取代它方面取得进展。

But I do think it's possibly part of the constellation of forces, of losses that is making us very sick as a species and as a society.

但我确实认为，这可能是导致我们作为一个物种和一个社会陷入重病的一系列力量和损失的一部分。

Namely the loneliness epidemic, the sort of antisocial century, with concomitant, with basically all these follow-ons in terms of anxiety and depression and-

即孤独感的流行，一种反社会的世纪，伴随而来的是，基本上所有这些后续后果，包括焦虑和抑郁，以及——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Despair

绝望

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

...

...

despair, exactly.

确切地说，是绝望。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

What a-

什么啊——

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Despair.

绝望。

It's such a great word

这是一个多么伟大的词

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

heavy word.

沉重的话。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

It's a great word.

这是一个伟大的词。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, it captures so much.

是的，它捕捉到了很多。

Couple of reflections about this, because I think about this a lot.

对此有一些思考，因为我对此思考了很多。

I'll never forget when I was traveling overseas in 2019, so this is pre-lockdowns and all that.

我永远不会忘记 2019 年我出国旅行的时候，所以这是封锁前的事情。

You would see in certain areas of the world, men walking holding hands.

在世界的某些地区，您会看到人们手牵着手行走。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Right.

正确的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I didn't know their sexual orientation, but my assumption was that they were heterosexual men holding hands-

而且我不知道他们的性取向，但我的假设是他们是手牵着手的异性恋男人——

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

because it was just very much part of the culture over there.

因为它是那里文化的重要组成部分。

The other thing was, and I have gone to South America, you'll see school kids walking home, all holding hands.

另一件事是，我去了南美洲，你会看到学校的孩子们手牵手走回家。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Boys and girls just walking, holding hands.

男孩和女孩只是手牵手走着。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's very casual-

是很随意的——

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

non-romantic handholding.

非浪漫的牵手。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

A lot more hugging.

更多的拥抱。

A lot of, I wouldn't say long, firm embrace, but I'd say like-

很多，我不会说漫长而坚定的拥抱，但我会说——

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

vigorous embrace upon-

有力地拥抱——

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

meeting kind of thing.

见面之类的事情。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And, and I grew up in the era of fist bumps and side hugs.

而且，我是在碰拳侧抱的时代长大的。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That was a thing over here.

那是这里的事。

And, as you pointed out, I think that the lack of physical touch of that sort, meaning just whatever is culturally acceptable, consensual, casual, physical touch-

而且，正如你所指出的，我认为缺乏这种身体接触，意味着文化上可接受的、自愿的、随意的身体接触——

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Absolutely

绝对

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

definitely, according to the literature that I'm aware of, signals to the rest of the nervous system and body isolation, even if we're surrounded by people.

当然，根据我所知道的文献，即使我们被人包围，也会向神经系统的其余部分和身体隔离发出信号。

And I watched that "Chimp Empire" series on Netflix, where they talk about this allopathic grooming, this collaborative grooming.

我在 Netflix 上观看了《黑猩猩帝国》系列，他们在其中谈论了这种对抗疗法的美容，这种协作美容。

Like I'll trade five-

就像我会交易五-

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'll pick your back for a while, you pick mine.

我会背你一会儿，你背我的。

And when they decide that they are going to ostracize a given member of their troop, for whatever reason, sometimes it's because a chimp misbehaved, other times it's more diabolical than that, and they're trying to really get rid of-- They're trying to adjust the power balance in the troop for other reasons.

当他们决定要排斥群体中的某个特定成员时，无论出于什么原因，有时是因为黑猩猩行为不端，其他时候则比这更邪恶，他们试图真正摆脱——他们试图出于其他原因调整群体中的权力平衡。

They basically just leave that chimp to try and groom itself, and then the parasites start to eat away at it, it develops these immune issues, and then they often just go off on their own and die.

它们基本上只是让黑猩猩尝试梳理自己的毛发，然后寄生虫开始蚕食它，它会出现这些免疫问题，然后它们通常会自行消失并死亡。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Hmm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's an incredibly hard thing to watch.

这是一件非常难以观看的事情。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And what the underlying reasons are in each case are not made completely clear.

每种情况的根本原因尚不完全清楚。

But, I think about this whole thing of deaths of despair and not long ago, you were talking about group selection.

但是，我想到了绝望死亡的整个事情，不久前，你还在谈论群体选择。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I feel like these two themes might be related.

我觉得这两个主题可能是相关的。

I feel like right now, politically and culturally in this country, and now starting in Europe as well, it has become an us versus them kind of scenario.

我觉得现在，在这个国家的政治和文化上，现在从欧洲开始，它已经成为一种美国与他们对抗的场景。

There doesn't seem to be a middle at all.

似乎根本没有中间。

It's like a big trough.

就像一个大槽。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And even the suggestion that somebody could kind of switch between groups is kind of like a no, because they believe and have said and done this.

甚至有人可以在不同群体之间切换的建议也有点像是拒绝，因为他们相信并且已经说过并这样做了。

No, because they believe and have said and done this.

不，因为他们相信、说过、做过这一点。

And very strong opinions from both sides.

双方的意见都非常强烈。

So, I don't think we're in a just hug it out kind of landscape right now.

所以，我不认为我们现在处于一种拥抱它的境地。

And, so I'm curious what forms of non-physical affiliative behavior exist out there.

而且，所以我很好奇那里存在什么形式的非身体亲和行为。

There are social media accounts out there like Upworthy, which just consistently puts out positive content.

有一些社交媒体帐户，例如 Upworthy，它不断地发布积极的内容。

There are people who are very positive in their online behavior.

有些人的在线行为非常积极。

And there's encouragement exists online, but it seems to be swamped by these high salience attacks.

网上也存在鼓励，但似乎被这些高度显着的攻击所淹没。

Like what's-

就像什么是-

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

the deal?

交易？

What can we do?

我们能做什么？

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

This is a fundamental question for our age, I think, and we're on a trajectory toward...

我认为，这是我们这个时代的一个基本问题，我们正走在……的轨道上。

Well, I don't want to give the impression that I'm a complete pessimist, but I was about to say toward oblivion, between the despair that has been driving people to either commit suicide or to develop severe mental illness or physical health issues, cardiovascular disease, diabetes, et cetera, that are I think in some cases, a consequence of being isolated because you are not interacting.

好吧，我不想给人留下我是一个彻底的悲观主义者的印象，但我想说的是，走向遗忘，在驱使人们自杀或患上严重精神疾病或身体健康问题、心血管疾病、糖尿病等的绝望之间，我认为在某些情况下，这是因为你们不互动而被孤立的结果。

That's part of who we are-

这就是我们的一部分——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah

是啊

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

...

...

as a species, and we don't thrive.

作为一个物种，我们无法繁衍生息。

The work is very clear that being isolated, being alone is worse for your health than smoking 15 cigarettes a day.

这项工作非常清楚地表明，与世隔绝、独处对你的健康比每天吸 15 支烟更糟糕。

It's just really, really bad, and it scales.

这真的非常非常糟糕，而且还会扩大。

It's almost linear to how many contacts you have per week or per month.

它几乎与您每周或每月的联系人数量成线性关系。

So, that's all really bad, and I do believe that's a big driver for not just the deaths of despair, but the lack of coupling and crashing rates of fertility, which is also a real thing, and it is happening, and if we don't counter it, it's going to be bad.

所以，这一切真的很糟糕，我确实相信，这不仅是绝望死亡的一个重要驱动因素，而且是缺乏耦合和生育率崩溃的一个重要驱动因素，这也是真实的事情，而且它正在发生，如果我们不反击它，那就会很糟糕。

Getting back to synchrony, one of the most effective ways to get in sync with somebody that you're out of sync with or that you don't know, who's different from you, is through conversation, but deep conversation, okay?

回到同步，与你不同步或你不认识的人、与你不同的人取得同步的最有效方法之一就是通过对话，但深入的对话，好吗？

And there's a couple parts to this.

这有几个部分。

You have to make the time and the space to do this.

你必须腾出时间和空间来做到这一点。

You have to have an intentional mindset.

你必须有一个有目的的心态。

And we and other scientists have worked with, there are these structured sets of questions that have been developed.

我们和其他科学家一起工作，已经开发出这些结构化的问题集。

There's one called Fast Friends, developed by the Ahrens in the late 1990s.

有一款叫做 Fast Friends，由 Ahrens 于 20 世纪 90 年代末开发。

There's commercially available decks online that you can get.

您可以在网上购买商业化的套牌。

And they're cool because each question, you can kind of take at a superficial level or a deep level, but they're designed to break the ice and then get you really fast into really deep questions.

它们很酷，因为每个问题你都可以从浅层次或深层次来回答，但它们的目的是打破僵局，然后让你快速进入真正深入的问题。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is this like the 100 questions to fall in love type thing-

这就像恋爱100个问题一样吗——

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

It's very similar

非常相似

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

that was published in "The New York Times?"

发表在《纽约时报》上的？

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

It's very similar to that.

与此非常相似。

But in this case, it's about connecting, like deep connection.

但在这种情况下，它是关于连接，比如深度连接。

I think it's more about deep connection than sort of romance part of this.

我认为这更多的是深厚的联系，而不是浪漫的一部分。

And, what happens during that, and my good friend and colleague, Emily Falk at the Annenberg School, had a really nice paper recently that showed that by measuring brain activity ...

而且，在那期间发生了什么，我的好朋友兼同事，安纳伯格学院的艾米丽·福尔克，最近发表了一篇非常好的论文，表明通过测量大脑活动......

itself in people who don't know each other, as they work through these questions and one brain is in this space, another brain is in this space, and they, over time, come into really close alignment, and that's associated with all this good stuff.

在彼此不认识的人身上，当他们解决这些问题时，一个大脑在这个空间中，另一个大脑在这个空间中，随着时间的推移，他们变得非常接近，这与所有这些好东西有关。

Like, "I like you more, I feel closer to you, I value you more," et cetera.

比如，“我更喜欢你，我感觉离你更近，我更重视你”等等。

And once you are in that kind of alignment, now you're set to sort of do things together.

一旦你们处于这种一致状态，现在你们就可以一起做事了。

And now I think that gets back to your question, we can't hug it out, but we have to somehow create space.

现在我认为这又回到了你的问题，我们不能拥抱它，但我们必须以某种方式创造空间。

And when I say space, give people the space to do that.

当我说空间时，请给人们这样做的空间。

I'm going to talk to somebody from the other political party or from the whatever.

我将与来自其他政党或其他任何组织的人交谈。

That's not a bad thing, right?

这并不是一件坏事，对吧？

In fact, that's what we need to do.

事实上，这就是我们需要做的。

But instead we're, especially online, reinforcing and making the barriers harder to have those conversations, which are the necessary thing, I think, to establish the glue that keeps us together.

但相反，我们（尤其是在网上）正在强化并加大进行这些对话的障碍，我认为这是建立将我们团结在一起的粘合剂所必需的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

I feel like unless there's an organized effort to try and create a bridge, it ain't going to happen.

我觉得除非有组织的努力来尝试建立一座桥梁，否则它不会发生。

I just feel like there's, I don't want to take us too far off course, but maybe this is a good segue into the neuroscience of decision-making and value-based decision making, which is so much of the work that you've done.

我只是觉得，我不想让我们偏离轨道太远，但也许这是对决策和基于价值的决策的神经科学的一个很好的延续，这就是你所做的大部分工作。

But I feel like there's this property of the human brain that there's evidence for.

但我觉得人类大脑的这种特性是有证据支持的。

I've seen a beautiful neuron paper showing that confirmation of our beliefs leads to an activation of a reward-based mechanism.

我看过一篇漂亮的神经元论文，表明我们信念的确认会导致基于奖励的机制的激活。

Basically, we're getting a little bit of dopamine-

基本上，我们得到了一点多巴胺-

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

for confirming our biases essentially-

从本质上确认我们的偏见-

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

about others.

关于其他人。

And then, of course, if we then experience more affiliative behavior from our group, we feel more protected, and then there's a tendency to do more of that.

当然，如果我们从我们的群体中体验到更多的亲和行为，我们就会感到受到更多的保护，然后就会倾向于做更多的事情。

And, I feel like with the knowledge that we have about dopamine incentive schemes, group selection behavior, there ought to be a program that could be established that isn't hug it out, but that is designed to, again, that word exploit is so loaded, to leverage the same neural circuits that led to the divide, to try and bridge this divide.

而且，我觉得，根据我们对多巴胺激励计划、群体选择行为的了解，应该有一个可以建立的计划，它不是一味地拥抱它，但它的设计目的是，再次，利用这个词是如此负载，利用导致分歧的相同神经回路，试图弥合这种分歧。

And what it has to do, though, is it has to break with the value system of both groups.

然而，它必须做的是它必须打破这两个群体的价值体系。

Let's just be frank.

坦白说吧。

We're talking about the left and the right here.

我们这里讨论的是左边和右边。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Right.

正确的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I don't want to dance around the margins.

我不想在边缘跳舞。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

No, don't dance around it.

不，不要围绕它跳舞。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And somehow acknowledge that there's good and bad within both of those groups.

并以某种方式承认这两个群体中都有好有坏。

Which itself, as I say, is a heretical statement, there's just so many assumptions made just on the basis of that.

正如我所说，这本身就是一种异端声明，基于此做出了很多假设。

But create a new value-based system that is self-rewarding and allows for group selection to fill in the gap, or at least come up with a third option.

但要创建一个新的基于价值的系统，该系统是自我奖励的，并允许群体选择来填补空白，或者至少提出第三种选择。

If not politically, then in terms of sociology.

如果不是政治上的，那就是社会学上的。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

So the solution is "Independence Day," that movie.

所以解决方案就是《独立日》那部电影。

So we need an alien invasion, so there's an out-group that we can all identify with each other as, "Okay, we have to come together to fight." Because I think that's really at the root of this, which is that because of group selection, humans are sort of very tribal by nature.

所以我们需要外星人入侵，所以有一个我们都可以互相认同的外群体，“好吧，我们必须团结起来战斗。”因为我认为这确实是问题的根源，因为群体选择，人类本质上是非常部落化的。

We are wired to connect, to glue together with the people who are in our tribe, but that means almost by definition, there's another tribe, right?

我们生来就有联系，与我们部落中的人们粘在一起，但这几乎意味着，还有另一个部落，对吧？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

So that we are over here, and we are defending ourselves against them.

所以我们在这里，我们正在防御他们。

Now, it's not complete, right?

现在，它还不完整，对吗？

People have been engaging in long-distance trade for 100,000 years plus.

人们从事长途贸易已有十万多年的历史。

There was interbreeding between Homo sapiens and Neanderthals and Denisovans, so there's some flexibility in those rules.

智人、尼安德特人和丹尼索瓦人之间存在杂交，因此这些规则有一定的灵活性。

But in general, yeah, to have an in-group, that means you have to have an out-group.

但总的来说，是的，要有一个内群体，这意味着你必须有一个外群体。

And if we want to take the left and right and put them together, in some ways, it's like the easiest way to do that is if we had a third out-group that we needed to unite against, such as drones from over New Jersey or-

如果我们想把左翼和右翼放在一起，在某些方面，最简单的方法就是如果我们有第三个外团体，我们需要联合起来对抗，比如来自新泽西州上空的无人机，或者——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

...

...

aliens or who knows what.

外星人或者谁知道什么。

But something.

但有什么。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, these go back to classic psychology experiments, right?

好吧，这些可以追溯到经典的心理学实验，对吧？

As I recall, where the best way to build affiliations, have a common goal and/or enemy.

我记得，建立联系的最佳方式是拥有共同的目标和/或敌人。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Unfortunately, being under attack, when two opposing groups are both under attack, they form alliances.

不幸的是，受到攻击，当两个对立的群体都受到攻击时，他们就会结成联盟。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

So it's the classic minimal group experiments of Zajonc in the '60s, which I love and I teach on this all the time because it's relevant for all these tribal biases.

这是 20 世纪 60 年代 Zajonc 的经典最小群体实验，我很喜欢它，并且一直在教授这个实验，因为它与所有这些部落偏见相关。

And what he did was you take the random people off the street, and you go, "Okay, you're on the red team, you're on the blue team, you're on the red team, you're on the blue team.

他所做的就是你把街上随机的人带走，然后你说：“好吧，你在红队，你在蓝队，你在红队，你在蓝队。

Okay.

好的。

In five minutes, you're going to have to compete against the other team." And immediately, the people on the red team are like, "I don't like the people on the blue team.

五分钟后，你将不得不与另一支球队竞争。”立刻，红队的人就说：“我不喜欢蓝队的人。

They're stupid, and they're ugly." And you don't know anything about them, right?

他们很愚蠢，而且很丑陋。”而你对他们一无所知，对吧？

But you end up immediately forming a tribe, even though you might not have had anything in common.

但你们最终会立即形成一个部落，即使你们可能没有任何共同点。

And what I think is really interesting and relevant here is that any number of different biases that are sort of superficial based on race or ethnic group or whatnot, which have been shown to, even though people say, like, "Oh, I feel if I see you in pain, like you're getting stuck with a needle," I'm like, "Oh, I feel the same for anyone, doesn't matter." But it tends to be selective for your own tribe when you measure the brain activity.

我认为这里真正有趣和相关的是，任何数量的不同偏见都是基于种族或族裔群体或其他什么的肤浅的，这些偏见已经被证明，即使人们说，“哦，如果我看到你痛苦，我感觉就像你被针扎一样，”我想，“哦，我对任何人都有同样的感觉，没关系。”但当你测量大脑活动时，它往往会针对你自己的部落进行选择性。

But if you now put the emphasis on team, literally you do that science experiment, that minimal group experiment, and I put you in a red, or we're both wearing black T-shirts, and so you're going to work with the other people with black T-shirts.

但如果你现在把重点放在团队上，实际上你会做那个科学实验，那个最小的小组实验，我让你穿红色的衣服，或者我们都穿黑色的T恤，所以你要和其他穿黑色T恤的人一起工作。

It doesn't matter who you are.

你是谁并不重要。

That, and I think the way it does this is through attention, is put my attention on what's shared-

我认为做到这一点的方式是通过注意力，将我的注意力放在共享的内容上——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

...

...

rather than what's different.

而不是有什么不同。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

So now we're on the same team, and now that kind of recovers, restores ...

所以现在我们在同一个团队，现在这种情况正在恢复，恢复......

that empathy that I didn't feel toward you before.

我以前对你没有过的同情心。

And that's interesting when you think about, say, in the US, the first places, the first groups that became integrated were military and sports.

有趣的是，当你想到，比如说，在美国，第一个地方、第一个融合的群体是军事和体育。

And what's common amongst those?

其中有什么共同点？

They wear uniforms.

他们穿着制服。

So the uniforms say we're on a team.

所以制服表明我们是一个团队。

It takes your attention away from the things that are different.

它会把你的注意力从不同的事物上移开。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And the Stanford Prisoner famous Zimbardo experiment, where assigning people to prisoner versus guard.

斯坦福囚犯著名的津巴多实验，将人们分配给囚犯与看守。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And that led where it led.

这导致了它的发展。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Exactly.

正是如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That occurred not but a short distance from where my lab was.

那件事发生在距离我的实验室不远的地方。

So we have this anxiety-lowering, pro-affiliative oxytocin thing activated by touch affiliation.

因此，我们有这种降低焦虑、亲和性的催产素的东西，通过触摸的亲和力被激活。

And it's bi-directional, like it promotes more touch, which promotes more feelings of safety, which lowers anxiety further.

它是双向的，就像它促进更多的触摸，从而促进更多的安全感，从而进一步降低焦虑。

And then we have testosterone, which signals certain things about others and seems to play a role in the hierarchy.

然后我们还有睾丸激素，它发出关于他人的某些事情的信号，并且似乎在等级制度中发挥着作用。

And you mentioned that when oxytocin is given, that it kind of flattens the hierarchy.

你提到，当给予催产素时，它会扁平化等级制度。

And my understanding of testosterone from Robert Sapolsky-

我对罗伯特·萨波尔斯基对睾丸激素的理解-

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and others is that testosterone tends to exacerbate existing traits in people.

另一个问题是睾丸激素往往会加剧人们现有的特征。

It doesn't turn nice people into jerks or jerks into nice people but rather it turns jerks into super jerks and nice people into super nice people, which fits well with my idea that testosterone makes effort feel good.

它不会把好人变成混蛋，或者把混蛋变成好人，而是把混蛋变成超级混蛋，把好人变成超级好人，这很符合我的观点，即睾丸激素让努力感觉良好。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And what type of effort feels good depends on a lot of complex features within us as humans.

什么样的努力感觉良好取决于我们人类内部的许多复杂特征。

Like too many things to explain by molecules.

就像太多的事情无法用分子来解释一样。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So I feel like the primate literature and the human literature map so well to one another, and I think this is a good segue to take us into value-based decision making, because I do recall a paper published, I think it was in "Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, USA," I should point that out, there are other proceedings in other countries, that showed that if day traders or people on the stock market floor took testosterone, or they tended to be more aggressive and impulsive in their decision making, or if you just looked at performance and then you measured testosterone, that it tended to fall out on a pretty nice correlation between higher testosterone and basically more aggressive decision making, more risk-taking.

所以我觉得灵长类文献和人类文献彼此映射得很好，我认为这是一个很好的衔接，可以让我们进行基于价值的决策，因为我确实记得发表过一篇论文，我认为它是在“美国国家科学院院刊”上发表的，我应该指出，其他国家还有其他诉讼程序表明，如果日内交易者或股票市场上的人们服用睾酮，或者他们在决策中往往会更加激进和冲动或者如果你只看表现，然后测量睾酮水平，你会发现较高的睾酮水平与更积极的决策、更多的冒险之间存在着很好的相关性。

So is that all still true?

那么这一切仍然是真的吗？

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

That's my read of literature.

这就是我读的文学作品。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

That is still true, and does raise, I think, a worrying specter of...

这仍然是事实，并且我认为确实引起了令人担忧的幽灵......

Because I don't know how much of a phenomenon it is now, but it was the case, maybe a decade ago or so, that a lot of guys who were traders who were feeling like they were losing their mojo after 40 or whatnot, declining testosterone, so they decide they're going to start juicing.

因为我不知道现在这种现象有多大，但大概十年前，很多交易员感觉自己在 40 岁左右就失去了魔力，睾丸激素下降，所以他们决定开始榨汁。

Okay, put some AndroGel on.

好的，涂上一些 AndroGel。

And if that's taking you above typical levels, then what might that do in terms of markets if enough people are actually...

如果这超出了典型水平，那么如果有足够多的人实际上......

Or even if they're juicing just for physical performance, and they're engaged in trading.

或者即使他们只是为了身体表现而榨汁，并且他们从事交易。

That could have a lot of bad effects as it cascaded through the market.

当它在市场上蔓延时，可能会产生很多不良影响。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, I would say that probably the dominant effect of exogenous androgens and all this TRT nowadays is it's very clear that it allows people to maintain moderate to high testosterone levels, even if they're not sleeping as much.

是的，我想说的是，外源性雄激素和当今所有 TRT 的主要影响可能是，很明显，它可以让人们保持中等到高的睾酮水平，即使他们睡眠不足。

It enhances recovery.

它可以增强恢复能力。

So if people have their behaviors right, their nutrition, their sleep, et cetera, it really does give them a significant advantage.

因此，如果人们的行为、营养、睡眠等正确，这确实会给他们带来显着的优势。

If they don't have their behaviors right, it gives them the significant advantage of not having to deal with the normal fluctuations caused by minimal sleep, et cetera.

如果他们的行为不正确，就会给他们带来显着的优势，因为他们不必应对睡眠不足等引起的正常波动。

But the decision-making process, like to say "Yes, no, maybe, or maybe later," is reliant on things like good sleep, being rested, things other than testosterone.

但决策过程，就像说“是、不、也许，或者也许以后”，依赖于良好的睡眠、休息以及睾丸激素以外的因素。

Like this is the idea of a committee as opposed to one individual recklessly driving decision based on state of mind or androgens.

这就是委员会的想法，而不是一个人根据精神状态或雄激素鲁莽地做出决定。

So if we could zoom out and in for a moment on some of the work that you did with Paul Glimcher when you were a post-doc in his lab, but also in your own laboratory.

因此，如果我们可以放大和缩小一下您在 Paul Glimcher 的实验室以及您自己的实验室中担任博士后时所做的一些工作。

When I sit down to make a decision, should I do something, should I not do something?

当我坐下来做出决定时，我应该做什么，不应该做什么？

Let's say I have some general sense of what the potential payoff is within a range, the potential payoff of not doing it within a range, and I always think of some kind of tension or pressure as it relates to time.

假设我对某个范围内的潜在回报、不在某个范围内做某件事的潜在回报有一些一般的认识，并且我总是想到某种与时间相关的紧张或压力。

Like for instance, I've been considering buying a house.

比如说，我一直在考虑买房子。

I really like the house.

我真的很喜欢这个房子。

It's a bit of a reach for me for a number of reasons, and I'm trying to make this decision.

由于多种原因，这对我来说有点难以实现，我正在努力做出这个决定。

And I'm trying to gauge whether or not other people are looking at this house also.

我正在尝试判断其他人是否也在看这所房子。

What do we know about how we start to establish an internal representation of that?

我们对如何开始建立其内部表征了解多少？

And I give that example as just one example.

我举的这个例子只是一个例子。

This could really translate to any number of different scenarios about whether or not to get married or not, whether or not to stay in a relationship or not, whether or not to move, whether or not to have another kid, and on and on and on.

这实际上可以转化为许多不同的场景，比如是否结婚、是否保持一段关系、是否搬家、是否要另一个孩子等等。

What are the core mechanics of value-based decision making as it relates to outcomes and time?

与结果和时间相关的基于价值的决策的核心机制是什么？

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Yeah.

是的。

So I think we understand this system pretty well at this point.

所以我认为我们现在已经非常了解这个系统了。

So the last 25, 30 years have been enormously productive.

因此，过去 25 年、30 年是富有成效的。

So we have a good sketch of the circuitry that does this.

这样我们就有了完成此操作的电路的良好草图。

And essentially what happens is you're confronting a situation, and it doesn't really matter.

本质上，发生的情况是你面临着一种情况，但这并不重要。

It seems to be the same process, doesn't matter whether you're trying to decide between eating a donut or an apple Or buying this house versus renting an apartment, or marrying this person, proposing or not.

这似乎是相同的过程，无论你是想在吃甜甜圈还是苹果之间做出决定，还是买这栋房子还是租一套公寓，或者与这个人结婚，求婚与否，都无关紧要。

It's sort of all the same system.

这有点像同一个系统。

And what happens is you come to the situation, and your brain takes in evidence about the alternatives.

当你遇到这种情况时，你的大脑就会吸收有关替代方案的证据。

What are the options that are available to me?

我可以选择哪些选项？

What do I know about them from their stimulus properties and from maybe prior encounters or just other information?

从它们的刺激特性以及之前的遭遇或其他信息中，我对它们了解多少？

And it takes that evidence, and it weighs it against stored information about things you've done in the past, other decisions you'd made, and then begins to assign value, computes the expected value on those different options in terms of what it will return to you, and then essentially that is the basis along which that decision gets made.

它会获取这些证据，并将其与存储的关于你过去所做的事情、你所做的其他决定的信息进行权衡，然后开始分配价值，根据它将返回给你的内容计算这些不同选项的预期价值，然后本质上这是做出决定的基础。

So it's a soft max function, as we say, so it's not like a hard deterministic one, so there's some statistical noise in there for some.

正如我们所说，它是一个软最大值函数，所以它不像一个硬确定性函数，所以对于某些人来说，其中存在一些统计噪声。

We could talk about what that reason might be.

我们可以讨论这个原因可能是什么。

You make a choice, and whenever you make a choice, in any behavior that you're engaging in, your brain is making a forecast of what's going to happen next as a result of that.

你做出选择，每当你做出选择时，在你正在进行的任何行为中，你的大脑都会预测接下来会发生什么。

And your brain then determines, computes, did things go exactly as predicted, right?

然后你的大脑会确定、计算，事情是否完全按照预测进行，对吗？

Is it better than predicted, or is it worse than predicted?

是比预期好，还是比预期差？

And then that signal gets fed back into the system to update it so that it hopefully performs that job better in the future.

然后该信号被反馈到系统中以进行更新，以便它在未来更好地执行该工作。

Right?

正确的？

So like, "Oh, actually, it went way better than expected.

就像，“哦，实际上，事情比预期的要好得多。

You should assign that a higher value and do that thing again." This process of weighing up the evidence takes time, and that's why we have this speed-accuracy trade-off in decision-making, where we observe that the faster you go, the more mistakes you tend to make.

你应该给它分配一个更高的值，然后再做一次。”这个权衡证据的过程需要时间，这就是为什么我们在决策中需要进行速度与准确性的权衡，我们观察到，你走得越快，你就越容易犯错误。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Been there.

去过那里。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：

Exactly.

正是如此。

We've all made split-second decisions that we regretted later.

我们都曾在瞬间做出决定，但事后却后悔不已。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, yeah, or slightly sleep-deprived.

哦，是的，或者有点睡眠不足。

Dr. Michael Platt:

迈克尔·普拉特博士：