How Hormones Shape Sexual Orientation & Behavior | Dr. Marc Breedlove
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The larger the number of older brothers that a male has, the higher the probability that he is gay.
男性的哥哥数量越多，他是同性恋的可能性就越高。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
It's been seen over and over.
它已经被看到了一遍又一遍。
It's really one of the rock-solid findings in human sexuality.
这确实是人类性行为中坚如磐石的发现之一。
So the way to emphasize the difference is if a baby boy is born today, if he has no older brothers, his odds of being gay when he grows up is about 2%.
所以强调差异的方法是，如果今天出生一个男婴，如果他没有哥哥，他长大后成为同性恋的几率约为 2%。
Pretty low.
相当低。
But if he had one older brother, his odds go up by a third.
但如果他有一个哥哥，他的几率就会增加三分之一。
Okay, 2.6.
好的，2.6。
And if he has two older brothers, they go up a third again.
如果他有两个哥哥，他们会再上升第三个。
Right now we're at 3.5.
现在我们是 3.5。
It turns out you got to have a dozen older brothers just to have a 50/50 chance.
事实证明，你必须有十几个哥哥才能有 50/50 的机会。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到胡伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. Marc Breedlove.
今天我的客人是马克·布里德洛夫博士。
Dr. Marc Breedlove is a professor of neuroscience at Michigan State University, and he is an expert in how hormones shape the developing brain, in particular, how they influence sexual orientation.
马克·布里德洛夫 (Marc Breedlove) 博士是密歇根州立大学的神经科学教授，他是激素如何塑造发育中的大脑，特别是激素如何影响性取向的专家。
As you'll learn today, the amount of testosterone that a fetus is exposed to while in the mother has a profound impact not only on the ratio of finger lengths, yes, you heard that right, but it also plays a meaningful role in sexual orientation.
正如您今天将了解到的，胎儿在母亲体内接触到的睾酮含量不仅对手指长度的比例产生深远的影响，是的，您没听错，而且它还在性取向方面发挥着有意义的作用。
And in fact, there's a correlation there between finger length ratios and sexual orientation.
事实上，手指长度比例和性取向之间存在相关性。
Now, as wild as that may seem, that result has now been confirmed many times over in humans and in animals, and today you'll understand why.
现在，尽管这看起来很疯狂，但这个结果现已在人类和动物身上多次得到证实，今天您就会明白其中的原因。
You'll also learn that every time a woman is pregnant with a male, there's a biological trace of that which biases the likelihood that her next male offspring will be either heterosexual or homosexual.
您还将了解到，每次女性怀上男性时，都会有一种生物学痕迹，这会影响她的下一个男性后代是异性恋还是同性恋的可能性。
Now, I know this sounds really out there, but these are extremely solid biological findings for which the mechanisms are now understood for both animals and humans.
现在，我知道这听起来确实存在，但这些都是非常可靠的生物学发现，现在动物和人类都了解了其机制。
It turns out that the hormones we are exposed to while we are in the womb shape not only the preference for whether somebody is attracted to males or females, but also an aversion to the opposite, meaning there appears to be the formation of circuits for being attracted to one sex and not attracted to the other.
事实证明，我们在子宫里接触到的荷尔蒙不仅决定了某人是否被男性或女性吸引，而且还厌恶相反的性别，这意味着似乎形成了被一种性别吸引而不被另一种性别吸引的回路。
Today, you'll also learn how hormones impact the amount of rough-and-tumble or social play that kids engage in, the interplay between nature and nurture in shaping male versus female differences, and sexual orientation.
今天，您还将了解荷尔蒙如何影响孩子们参与的打闹或社交游戏的数量、先天与后天之间在塑造男性与女性差异方面的相互作用以及性取向。
Dr. Breedlove is one of the long-standing pioneers in this field of how hormones shape brain development and psychology.
布里德洛夫博士是激素如何塑造大脑发育和心理学领域的长期先驱之一。
We approach these questions through the lens of biology and statistics.
我们通过生物学和统计学的视角来解决这些问题。
So today's is not a political discussion.
所以今天的讨论不是政治讨论。
Instead, it's a discussion about what is known and what is still not known about this profound aspect of our species.
相反，这是关于我们物种这一深刻方面的已知和未知的讨论。
Oh, and we also talk about gay rams.
哦，我们还谈论同性恋公羊。
Yes, that's a real thing, and it has important implications for everything we've mentioned thus far.
是的，这是真实的事情，它对我们迄今为止提到的一切都有重要的影响。
By the end of today's episode, you'll surely think differently about the relationship between hormones and brain development, nature and nurture, and romantic partner choice.
在今天的节目结束时，您肯定会对荷尔蒙与大脑发育、先天与后天以及浪漫伴侣选择之间的关系有不同的看法。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Marc Breedlove.
现在我与马克·布里德洛夫博士进行讨论。
Dr. Marc Breedlove, welcome.
马克·布里德洛夫博士，欢迎光临。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
I'm delighted to be here.
我很高兴来到这里。
Very exciting.
非常令人兴奋。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's been 25 years since we stood in the same physical space.
距离我们站在同一个物理空间已有 25 年了。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
I know.
我知道。
How can that be possible when I feel like I just saw you a few days ago, but then...
这怎么可能，我感觉好像几天前才见过你，但后来……
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, you look great.
嗯，你看起来很棒。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You look the same, so we can talk longevity protocols at the end, but-
你看起来一样，所以我们可以在最后讨论长寿协议，但是——
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
I'm trying to have a blonde look in my hair, apparently.
显然，我想让我的头发看起来像金发。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I've wanted to have you on this podcast since I launched it because you work on one of the most interesting things in the world, which is how and why people become who they are, and how hormones play a role there, how genes play a role there.
嗯，自从我推出这个播客以来，我就想让你加入这个播客，因为你致力于世界上最有趣的事情之一，这就是人们如何以及为何成为他们自己，以及激素如何在那里发挥作用，基因如何在那里发挥作用。
If you're willing, I'd like to jump from the high dive to the deep end first.
如果你愿意的话，我想先从高处跳到深处。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right off.
马上。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
All right.
好吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's talk about this finger length ratios sexual orientation study that-
让我们来谈谈这个手指长度比例性取向研究——
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you published, and somehow I landed on that paper.
你发表了，不知怎的我就登上了那篇论文。
But that's not why I want to talk about it.
但这不是我想谈论它的原因。
I want to talk about it because it's an incredibly interesting set of findings.
我想谈论它，因为这是一组非常有趣的发现。
Other people have done the same-ish experiments, and there's a whole context there about how hormones influence sexual orientation independent of behavior.
其他人也做过类似的实验，并且有一个关于激素如何独立于行为影响性取向的完整背景。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
We need to step back a little bit for the context of one thing that your listeners might not know is, in the year 2000, there was still a lot of people who regarded same-sex orientation as a choice, a lifestyle choice.
我们需要退后一步，了解听众可能不知道的一件事，那就是，在 2000 年，仍然有很多人将同性取向视为一种选择，一种生活方式的选择。
That was the political combination of words that meant you could disapprove of people because they were attracted to the same sex.
这是政治性的词语组合，意味着你可以不赞成人们，因为他们被同性所吸引。
Of course, I'm at Berkeley.
当然，我在伯克利。
I didn't have any truck with such notions at all.
我根本没有任何一辆卡车有这样的想法。
And I've always been convinced that sexual orientation is not a choice.
我一直坚信性取向不是一种选择。
And there's an exercise I do in class where I ask, so I'm going to put you to it.
我在课堂上要求做一个练习，所以我会让你去做。
So remember the first time you had a crush, right?
还记得你第一次暗恋的时候吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
It might've been someone on TV, it might've been someone at a playground, et cetera.
可能是电视上的某个人，也可能是操场上的某个人，等等。
So think about it, and I want you to tell me about how old you were at the time in a moment.
所以想一想，我想让你马上告诉我你当时的年龄。
My guess is it was before puberty.
我猜那是在青春期之前。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I was six.
是的，我六岁。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yeah, same here.
是的，这里也一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I hit puberty somewhere starting around 14.
我从 14 岁左右开始进入青春期。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
So it had nothing to do with puberty, right?
所以这和青春期没有关系吧？
It was this thing that happened, and I'll share my experience.
正是发生了这样的事情，我来分享一下我的经历。
So I'm about six or seven.
所以我大约六七岁。
I couldn't have been more than seven, and Marilyn Monroe is on TV.
我当时还不到七岁，玛丽莲·梦露就在电视上。
I'm dating myself.
我正在和自己约会。
And there's a close-up with that face and the mole, et cetera, and afterwards, I'm just so agitated.
还有一张脸和痣等等的特写，然后我就非常激动。
And I know nothing about sex.
而且我对性一无所知。
I remember I had a hard time going to sleep, so it was like something about this was really agitating me, and I didn't choose to have that reaction.
我记得我很难入睡，所以好像这件事真的让我很不安，但我并没有选择做出那样的反应。
And my guess is that whatever sex you had your first crush on, that's the one you're going to be attracted to the rest of your life.
我的猜测是，无论你第一次迷恋什么性别，你都会在余生中被它所吸引。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it's been constant.
是的，一直如此。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So this idea that it was a choice, that always just seemed so absurd to me.
因此，认为这是一种选择的想法对我来说总是那么荒谬。
On the other hand, even though I'd been doing animal research with giving hormones early in life and seeing what it did to the nervous system, et cetera, and every time I wrote an NIH grant, I said, "Well, the effect of early hormones may be important for human behavior," but to tell you the truth, I never actually believed that.
另一方面，尽管我一直在做动物研究，在生命早期就给予激素，看看它对神经系统有何影响，等等，每次我写一份 NIH 拨款时，我都会说，“好吧，早期激素的影响可能对人类行为很重要”，但说实话，我从来没有真正相信过这一点。
I just wanted to justify it.
我只是想证明它是合理的。
Because it seemed to me that we are so sensitive to social influences, and we have this long stretch of time where our brains are still growing at a fetal rate of growth until at nine or 10 years of age, and we're taking in so much information.
因为在我看来，我们对社会影响是如此敏感，而且在很长一段时间内，我们的大脑仍然以胎儿的速度生长，直到九岁或十岁，我们吸收了如此多的信息。
And think of what a heterosexual world is, right?
想想异性恋世界是什么，对吧？
All those Disney movies with Prince Charming, et cetera.
所有那些有白马王子的迪士尼电影等等。
And so it always seemed to me that social learning would be more than enough to explain why 95% of people are straight.
因此，在我看来，社会学习足以解释为什么 95% 的人是异性恋。
But that doesn't mean it was a choice, and it doesn't mean that they would even be aware of what the social influence was.
但这并不意味着这是一种选择，也不意味着他们会意识到社会影响是什么。
So my example is I speak English.
我的例子是我说英语。
I'm hopelessly monolingual, only language I speak.
我无可救药地只会说一种语言，只有我说的语言。
Well, I don't remember learning English, and I certainly didn't choose to learn English, but I'm sure that it's English because of social influences.
嗯，我不记得学过英语，当然也没有选择学英语，但由于社会影响，我确信那是英语。
So that was where I stood on the question of sexual orientation until 1998, 1999, when this fellow at University of Texas, Dennis McFadden, came out with a paper where it really made me think that prenatal testosterone might have an effect after all, despite my expectations.
所以这就是我在性取向问题上的立场，直到 1998 年、1999 年，德克萨斯大学的丹尼斯·麦克法登 (Dennis McFadden) 发表了一篇论文，它确实让我认为产前睾丸激素毕竟可能会产生影响，尽管我有这样的期望。
And this was looking at otoacoustic emissions.
这是研究耳声发射。
Do you want to talk about those?
你想谈谈这些吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
These are people's ears making noise.
这些是人们发出噪音的耳朵。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Right now, in this studio, if I shut up for a moment, your ears will continue to make little popping sounds that you're not aware of, because having grown up with it, the brain stopped you from perceiving those long ago.
现在，在这个工作室里，如果我闭嘴一会儿，你的耳朵会继续发出你没有意识到的小爆裂声，因为伴随着它长大，大脑很久以前就阻止了你感知这些声音。
But if Dennis puts you in a soundproof room and puts a very sensitive microphone in your ear, he'll hear these pops.
但如果丹尼斯把你放在一个隔音房间里，并在你耳边放一个非常灵敏的麦克风，他就会听到这些爆裂声。
And I won't get into the acoustics of why that's a good thing.
我不会从声学角度解释为什么这是一件好事。
It helps you to focus on the sounds you want to hear.
它可以帮助您专注于您想听到的声音。
But what Dennis knew is there's a sex difference in how many of these otoacoustic emissions are being made.
但丹尼斯知道，耳声发射的数量存在性别差异。
Girls make more, and it's present at birth.
女孩赚得更多，而且是出生时就存在的。
So Dennis comes out with a strange study, who would do such a thing?
所以丹尼斯提出了一项奇怪的研究，谁会做这样的事情呢？
Where he proposes, well, since the sex difference is present at birth, it might reflect prenatal testosterone.
他提出，既然性别差异在出生时就存在，这可能反映了产前睾酮水平。
And so he measured the otoacoustic emissions in straight men and gay men, and straight women and lesbians.
因此，他测量了异性恋男性和男同性恋者、异性恋女性和女同性恋者的耳声发射。
And he reports that compared to straight women, the lesbians have fewer of these otoacoustic emissions than straight women.
他报告说，与异性恋女性相比，女同性恋者的耳声发射比异性恋女性少。
It's like, well, what?
就像，嗯，什么？
How would that happen?
那怎么会发生呢？
I couldn't think of any way to explain that except that, well, the lesbians might've been exposed to more prenatal testosterone than straight women before birth.
我想不出任何方法来解释这一点，除了女同性恋在出生前可能比异性恋女性接触到更多的产前睾酮。
And I don't know how to explain that except to say, well, maybe prenatal testosterone, maybe if you're exposed to that before birth, you're more likely to be attracted to women when you grow up.
我不知道如何解释这一点，除了说，好吧，也许是产前睾酮，也许如果你在出生前接触过睾酮，长大后你更有可能被女性所吸引。
Which, oh, well, that might explain why 95% of men are attracted to women, right?
哦，这也许可以解释为什么 95% 的男人会被女人吸引，对吧？
Because they're all exposed to prenatal testosterone.
因为他们都接触过产前睾酮。
So this oddball study really gets me to thinking that maybe there's something to that.
所以这项奇怪的研究确实让我思考也许其中有什么道理。
But I forget it.
但我忘记了。
I'm still working with my rats and Peromyscus and Siberian hamsters and stuff.
我仍在研究我的老鼠、白鼠和西伯利亚仓鼠之类的东西。
I'm happily doing that.
我很高兴这样做。
And then and I remember it so well, in 1999, I'm in my office at Berkeley, and I read this paper that says there's a sex difference in the ratio of fingers that's present in nine-year-old children.
然后我记得很清楚，1999 年，我在伯克利的办公室里读到了一篇论文，文章说九岁儿童的手指比例存在性别差异。
What?
什么？
I've studied sex differences my whole adult life.
我整个成年生活都在研究性别差异。
How do I not know about this?
我怎么不知道这件事呢？
And it turns out that if you measure the length of the second digit-
事实证明，如果你测量第二个数字的长度-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The pointer finger
食指
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
...
...
the pointer finger.
食指。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For those just listening, yeah.
对于那些只是听的人来说，是的。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Right.
对。
And the length of the ring finger, and you can do a simple ratio.
而无名指的长度，可以和你做一个简单的比例。
Divide the length of the second digit by the fourth digit, so-called 2D:4D ratio.
将第二位数字的长度除以第四位数字，即所谓的 2D:4D 比率。
And a guy named John Manning was reporting that there's a sex difference there.
一个名叫约翰·曼宁的人报告说存在性别差异。
That that ratio tends to be smaller in men than in women, and that it's present in children.
男性的这一比例往往小于女性，而且这种比例也存在于儿童中。
It's like, well, wait a minute.
就像，好吧，等一下。
A sex difference in the body that's present before puberty, I know enough about sexual differentiation of the body, it's almost certainly due to prenatal testosterone.
青春期前存在的身体性别差异，我对身体的性别分化有足够的了解，这几乎可以肯定是由于产前睾丸激素造成的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Forgive me for interrupting you-
请原谅我打扰你——
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but people are probably looking at their hands right now.
但人们现在可能正在看着自己的手。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Oh, yes.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I just want to point out that these are averages.
我只想指出这些只是平均值。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I think the 2D:4D thing for people that aren't familiar, even though you explained it quite clearly, can be a little confusing.
但我认为对于不熟悉 2D:4D 的人来说，即使你解释得很清楚，可能会有点令人困惑。
Basically, in men, the finger lengths are more different than they are in women, and there are some differences in that statement according to sexual orientation that we'll get into.
基本上，男性的手指长度比女性的差异更大，并且根据我们将要讨论的性取向，这种说法也存在一些差异。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In other words, the typical heterosexual male pattern is that the pointer finger-
换句话说，典型的异性恋男性模式就是食指——
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is shorter than the ring finger.
比无名指短。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Whereas in women, they tend to be more similar.
而在女性中，它们往往更加相似。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Again, these are averages.
再次强调，这些是平均值。
And not to give it away, but because people are looking at their fingers right now.
并不是为了放弃它，而是因为人们现在正在看着他们的手指。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yes.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That-
那——
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Let me just say, don't panic.
我只想说，不要惊慌。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Right.
正确的。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
We're going to walk you through this.
我们将引导您完成这个过程。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
You're going to be fine.
你会没事的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the difference between men and women is more pronounced on the right hand, as I recall.
我记得，男性和女性之间的差异在右手上更为明显。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
That's true, too.
这也是事实。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Did I earn my authorship on the paper?
我是否获得了该论文的作者身份？
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Well, that and the fact that you persuaded so many people to answer our weird questions and let us see rocks their hands, yes.
好吧，事实上，你说服了这么多人回答我们奇怪的问题，让我们看到他们的手，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
So please continue, but I know that the moment that came out, hopefully there were no car accidents or people were driving.
所以请继续，但我知道那一刻出来时，希望没有车祸或有人开车。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But these are averages, but that's the pattern that was observed.
但这些是平均值，但这就是观察到的模式。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
That's the pattern we saw.
这就是我们看到的模式。
Well- I'd never worked with humans before, but I'm sitting in the Bay Area.
嗯——我以前从未与人类一起工作过，但我坐在湾区。
We have loads of gay people around.
我们周围有很多同性恋者。
So it's like, "Well, I guess we could try to do this." And so we started going out to street fairs, you were with us, going out to street fairs and asking people questions, ask them to fill out a questionnaire anonymously.
所以就像是，“好吧，我想我们可以尝试这样做。”所以我们开始去街头集市，你和我们一起，去街头集市并向人们提问，要求他们匿名填写一份调查问卷。
And I remember it was one of the organizers of one of the street fair, but I said, "Well, what should we do as an incentive to get people in?" They said, "Well, offer them scratcher tickets."
我记得这是一个街头集市的组织者之一，但我说，“那么，我们应该采取什么措施来激励人们参与呢？”他们说：“好吧，给他们提供刮刮乐票。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Lottery tickets.
彩票。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Lottery tickets.
彩票。
So we ask people, "Will you please answer these very personal questions about who you have sex with, who you want to have sex with, et cetera, and tell us everything about yourself anonymously, and we'll give you a $1 lottery scratcher ticket." And people will do anything for a $1 lottery scratcher ticket.
所以我们问人们，“请你回答这些非常私人的问题，比如你和谁发生性关系、你想和谁发生性关系等等，并匿名告诉我们关于你自己的一切，我们会给你一张 1 美元的刮刮乐彩票。”人们会为了一张 1 美元的刮刮乐彩票做任何事。
Which is weird because you do the math and they're worth, like, 27 cents, right?
这很奇怪，因为你算了一下，它们的价值是 27 美分，对吗？
But people want them.
但人们想要它们。
"And, oh, by the way, can we Xerox your hands?" And the last two questions we asked about handedness, but it was really just to keep them from panicking.
“哦，顺便问一下，我们可以复印你的手吗？”我们问的最后两个问题是关于惯用手的，但这实际上只是为了防止他们惊慌。
By the way, it was the least expensive experiment I'd ever done in my life, because really, compared to any experiment with rat, where step one, buy a rat for 20 bucks, right?
顺便说一句，这是我一生中做过的最便宜的实验，因为真的，与任何用老鼠做的实验相比，第一步，花 20 美元买一只老鼠，对吗？
And it was an odd experience going into 7-Eleven that morning and saying, "Please, I'd like 750 $1 lottery scratcher tickets."
那天早上走进 7-11 便利店并说：“请帮我，我想要 750 张 1 美元的彩票刮刮乐彩票”，这真是一种奇怪的经历。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break to acknowledge one of our sponsors, David.
我想稍微休息一下，向我们的赞助商之一大卫表示感谢。
David makes protein bars unlike any other.
大卫制作的蛋白质棒与众不同。
Their newest bar, the Bronze Bar, has 20 grams of protein, only 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar.
他们最新的 Bronze Bar 含有 20 克蛋白质，仅 150 卡路里，零克糖。
I have to say, these are the best-tasting protein bars I've ever had, and I've tried a lot of protein bars over the years.
我不得不说，这些是我吃过的味道最好的蛋白质棒，这些年来我尝试过很多蛋白质棒。
These new David bars have a marshmallow base and they're covered in chocolate coating, and they're absolutely incredible.
这些新的大卫巧克力棒有一个棉花糖底座，上面覆盖着巧克力涂层，它们绝对令人难以置信。
I, of course, eat regular whole foods.
当然，我经常吃天然食品。
I eat meat, chicken, fish, eggs, fruits, vegetables, et cetera.
我吃肉、鸡肉、鱼、鸡蛋、水果、蔬菜等等。
But I also make it a point to eat one or two David bars per day as a snack, which makes it easy to hit my protein goal of one gram of protein per pound of body weight.
但我也强调每天吃一两块大卫棒作为零食，这样很容易达到我每磅体重一克蛋白质的蛋白质目标。
And that allows me to take in the protein I need without consuming excess calories.
这使我能够摄入所需的蛋白质，而不会消耗过多的热量。
I love all the David Bronze Bar flavors, including Cookie Dough, Caramel Chocolate, Double Chocolate, Peanut Butter Chocolate.
我喜欢大卫青铜棒的所有口味，包括饼干面团、焦糖巧克力、双重巧克力、花生酱巧克力。
They all actually taste like candy bars.
它们实际上尝起来都像棒棒糖。
Again, they're amazing.
再说一次，他们太棒了。
But again, they have no sugar, and they have 20 grams of protein with just 150 calories.
但同样，它们不含糖，并且含有 20 克蛋白质，只有 150 卡路里热量。
If you'd like to try David, you can go to davidprotein.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 David，可以访问 david Protein.com/huberman。
Right now, David is offering a deal where if you buy four cartons, you get the fifth carton for free.
现在，大卫正在提供一项优惠，如果您购买四箱，您可以免费获得第五箱。
You can also find David on Amazon or in stores such as Target, Walmart, and Kroger.
您还可以在亚马逊或 Target、沃尔玛和克罗格等商店找到 David。
Again, to get the fifth carton for free, go to davidprotein.com/huberman.
同样，要免费获得第五箱，请访问 david Protein.com/huberman。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Rorra.
今天的节目也是罗拉给我们带来的。
Rorra makes what I believe are the best water filters on the market.
我认为 Rorra 制造的是市场上最好的滤水器。
It's an unfortunate reality, but tap water often contains contaminants that negatively impact our health.
这是一个不幸的现实，但自来水通常含有对我们的健康产生负面影响的污染物。
In fact, a 2020 study by the Environmental Working Group estimated that more than 200 million Americans are exposed to PFAS chemicals, also known as forever chemicals, through drinking of tap water.
事实上，环境工作组 2020 年的一项研究估计，超过 2 亿美国人通过饮用自来水接触到 PFAS 化学物质（也称为永久化学物质）。
These forever chemicals are linked to serious health issues such as hormone disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems.
这些永久性化学物质与严重的健康问题有关，例如激素紊乱、肠道微生物组破坏、生育问题和许多其他健康问题。
The Environmental Working Group has also shown that over 122 million Americans drink tap water with high levels of chemicals known to cause cancer.
环境工作组还表明，超过 1.22 亿美国人饮用的自来水含有大量已知致癌化学物质。
It's for all these reasons that I'm thrilled to have Rorra as a sponsor of this podcast.
出于所有这些原因，我很高兴 Rorra 作为这个播客的赞助商。
I've been using the Rorra countertop system for almost a year now.
我使用 Rorra 台面系统已经快一年了。
Rorra's filtration technology removes harmful substances, including endocrine disruptors and disinfection byproducts, while preserving beneficial minerals like magnesium and calcium.
Rorra 的过滤技术可去除有害物质，包括内分泌干扰物和消毒副产物，同时保留镁和钙等有益矿物质。
It requires no installation or plumbing, it's built from medical-grade stainless steel, and its sleek design fits beautifully on your countertop.
它不需要安装或管道，由医用级不锈钢制成，其时尚的设计非常适合您的台面。
In fact, I consider it a welcome addition to my kitchen.
事实上，我认为它对我的厨房来说是一个受欢迎的补充。
It looks great, and the water is delicious.
看起来很棒，水也很美味。
If you'd like to try Rorra, you can go to rorra.com/huberman and get an exclusive discount.
如果您想尝试 Rorra，可以访问 rorra.com/huberman 并获得独家折扣。
Again, that's Rorra, R-O-R-R-A.com/huberman.
再说一次，那是 Rorra，R-O-R-R-A.com/huberman。
Well, as long as we're getting into the context, it's interesting because you said there are a lot of gay people in the Bay Area, but it was very clear, as I recall when doing the study, that if we wanted to get a large sample population of gay men, we would need to go to the Castro district in San Francisco.
好吧，只要我们进入背景，这很有趣，因为你说湾区有很多同性恋者，但很明显，正如我在做这项研究时回忆的那样，如果我们想要获得大量的同性恋者样本，我们需要去旧金山的卡斯特罗区。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yeah, as we did.
是的，就像我们一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And if we needed to get a large cohort of gay women, we need to go to the Solano Street Fair in Berkeley.
如果我们需要吸引大批女同性恋者，我们需要去伯克利的索拉诺街头集市。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
And in Oakland.
还有奥克兰。
So there was a brand new Oakland gay festival that got started, and yeah, Oakland is a wonderful place to find lesbians, so one of the charms of the place.
因此，一个全新的奥克兰同性恋节开始了，是的，奥克兰是寻找女同性恋的好地方，所以这是这个地方的魅力之一。
I thought the whole idea was kind of crazy, actually.
事实上，我认为整个想法有点疯狂。
I didn't think we'd come up with anything, and I insisted on measuring all the digits myself, which I did twice.
我认为我们不会想出任何办法，所以我坚持自己测量所有的数字，我做了两次。
Boring as hell.
无聊得要死。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I recall when we were on, what was it like, third floor of Tolman Hall?
我记得我们去的时候，托尔曼大厅的三楼是什么样子？
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you came running in.
而你却跑了进来。
I was talking to my advisor, our good friend-
我正在和我的顾问、我们的好朋友交谈——
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
Irv Zucker.
欧夫·扎克。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One of the pioneers of circadian biology, discovered the suprachiasmatic nucleus-
昼夜节律生物学的先驱之一，发现了视交叉上核
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Absolutely
绝对
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with Bob Moore and others.
与鲍勃·摩尔等人。
And you came running in with a ruler and you said, "Give me your hands." And you grabbed my hands and you measured them, and you go, "Well, that's weird, because it's different on one hand than the other." And then you go, "Okay." And you took the notes and you measured his hands and you left, and I thought, "What in the world is he doing?" It turns out that was the early origins of the study.
你拿着一把尺子跑进来，说：“把手给我。”你抓住我的手，测量它们，然后你说，“嗯，这很奇怪，因为一只手和另一只手不同。”然后你就说：“好吧。”你记下笔记，量了量他的手，然后就离开了，我想，“他到底在做什么？”事实证明，这就是这项研究的早期起源。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yeah.
是的。
No, anyway, so I measure these hands and I'm doing the math at the end of the day, and lo and behold, I don't see any difference in the digit ratios of gay and straight men.
不，无论如何，所以我测量了这些手，并在一天结束时进行了数学计算，你瞧，我没有看到同性恋者和异性恋者的手指比例有任何差异。
Right?
正确的？
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Between gay and straight men.
同性恋和异性恋之间。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yeah, I didn't see any difference there.
是的，我没看出有什么区别。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which itself is interesting.
这本身很有趣。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because it implies More or less equivalent amounts of prenatal testosterone exposure
因为它意味着或多或少等量的产前睾酮暴露
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Which I think is the case, yes.
我认为情况确实如此，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
And right now, just forgive me, but some people might say, "Well, that's not surprising." But in the '80s and '90s, the Hollywood stereotype of gay men was that they were all very effeminate.
现在，请原谅我，但有些人可能会说，“嗯，这并不奇怪。”但在 80 年代和 90 年代，好莱坞对男同性恋的刻板印象是他们都非常女性化。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Since then, there's been an evolution.
从那时起，就有了演变。
In fact, I haven't seen it, but many people I know are very excited about this recent show about these two gay hockey players-
事实上，我还没看过，但我认识的很多人都对最近这部关于这两位同性恋曲棍球运动员的节目感到非常兴奋——
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yes.
是的。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
where, so the whole context is these guys that are very masculine but are gay.
所以整个背景就是这些非常有男子气概但又是同性恋的家伙。
So, for people hearing this that are younger than 40, they're going to think, "Well, duh."
所以，对于 40 岁以下的人来说，听到这个消息，他们会想：“呃，呃。”
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But for people that grew up in my generation or your generation, it was a bit of a shocker to a lot of people, because depending on their level of exposure to the gay community, they may or may not have realized that not all gay men are effeminate.
但对于我这一代或你们这一代长大的人来说，这对很多人来说有点令人震惊，因为根据他们接触同性恋社区的程度，他们可能意识到也可能没有意识到并非所有男同性恋都是女性化的。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
No, and that idea that gay men might've been under-androgenized, there was always a part of it that always seemed strange to me.
不，关于男同性恋者可能雄激素化不足的想法，总有一部分对我来说总是显得很奇怪。
So the big sex differences in human behavior are not in math skills and the verbal skill.
因此，人类行为中最大的性别差异并不在于数学技能和语言技能。
Those are tiny, right?
这些都很小，对吧？
The really big sex differences in human behavior are in sexual attitudes, and the biggest sex difference is one sex is much more interested in multiple partners and younger partners than the other.
人类行为中真正最大的性别差异在于性态度，最大的性别差异是一种性别比另一种性别对多个伴侣和年轻伴侣更感兴趣。
Right?
正确的？
Everyone knows which sex that is.
每个人都知道那是什么性别。
One sex is much more interested in casual sex than the other.
一种性别比另一种性别对随意性行为更感兴趣。
Everyone knows it.
每个人都知道。
One sex is much more interested in visual pornography than the other sex.
一种性别比另一种性别对视觉色情更感兴趣。
Those are huge sex differences compared to any cognitive things.
与任何认知事物相比，这些都是巨大的性别差异。
And in all those ways, gay men are totally masculine.
从所有这些方面来看，男同性恋者都是完全阳刚的。
So how would that work that they were under-androgenized, and yet they have all these sex differences in sexual attitude?
那么，如果他们的雄激素水平不足，但他们在性态度上却存在这些性别差异，这是如何发生的呢？
I think the difference between gay and straight men isn't in how much prenatal testosterone they got.
我认为同性恋者和异性恋者之间的区别并不在于他们在产前获得了多少睾酮。
I think it's in how their brains responded to the testosterone that they got.
我认为这取决于他们的大脑对睾丸激素的反应。
And we can talk about that some more later.
我们稍后可以再讨论这个问题。
But back to the digit ratios, the lesbians had more masculine digit ratios than the straight women on average.
但回到手指比例，女同性恋者的平均手指比例比异性恋女性更男性化。
And as you said, that's been replicated by many different labs.
正如你所说，许多不同的实验室都重复了这一点。
Dave Putz at Penn State, and Ashwin Swift, Galant, and I recently published the third meta-analysis, and it's clear so many people have seen it.
宾夕法尼亚州立大学的戴夫·普茨 (Dave Putz)、阿什温·斯威夫特 (Ashwin Swift)、加兰特 (Galant) 和我最近发表了第三份荟萃分析，很明显很多人都看过它。
It's there.
它就在那里。
And as with Dennis' otoacoustic emissions, I don't know how to explain that.
就像丹尼斯的耳声发射一样，我不知道如何解释。
Why would lesbians have a more masculine digit ratio than straight women unless, on average, they were exposed to more prenatal testosterone than straight women?
为什么女同性恋者的手指比例会比异性恋女性更男性化，除非平均而言，她们比异性恋女性接触到更多的产前睾丸激素？
And why would that matter, unless being exposed to prenatal testosterone makes you more inclined to be attracted to women when you grow up?
为什么这很重要，除非接触产前睾酮会让你长大后更容易被女性吸引？
And what's really weird about it, think about the time lag.
真正奇怪的是，想想时间滞后。
Your first crush, this mysterious, for me at least, it was like a visitation.
你的初恋，如此神秘，至少对我来说，就像一次拜访。
It's like, where'd this come from?
就像，这是从哪里来的？
That happened six years after you were out of the womb.
那是在你离开子宫六年后发生的。
And so it's really strange to think that something that happened to you before you were born would have an influence on who you're going to be attracted to six, 10 years later, when you had your first crush.
所以，想到你出生前发生的事情会影响你六年、十年后，当你第一次暗恋时，你会被谁吸引，真的很奇怪。
And I can tell you that when we published that in 2000, it did cause quite an uproar.
我可以告诉大家，我们2000年发表这个文章的时候，确实引起了很大的轩然大波。
I heard from a lot of strangers that I'd never heard from before, and it was pretty interesting.
我听到了很多以前从未听说过的陌生人的来信，这很有趣。
Of course, several people wrote who hadn't told me that they were gay, and they were very positive, very supportive.
当然，有几个人写信告诉我他们是同性恋，但他们非常积极、非常支持。
But I got lots of emails from people saying, "I know you're lying.
但我收到很多人发来的电子邮件说：“我知道你在撒谎。
You're making this up to justify your gay lifestyle." It's like, well, okay, except I don't happen to be gay.
你编造这些是为了证明你的同性恋生活方式是正当的。”就像，好吧，好吧，只不过我碰巧不是同性恋。
We had a nice mix of orientations on the research team, but people were having a hard time with it.
我们的研究团队有一个很好的方向组合，但人们却很难接受。
And to assure your listeners about if they're looking at their hands, if they're a woman and they looked at their hands and they see that the index finger's quite a bit shorter than the ring finger, and they're thinking, "I thought I was straight," et cetera.
为了向听众保证，他们是否在看自己的手，如果他们是女性，他们会看到自己的手，食指比无名指短很多，他们会想，“我以为我是直的”，等等。
So here's a joke that I tell, which is, if you want, I'm going to teach you right now.
所以这是我讲的一个笑话，如果你愿意，我现在就教你。
You gather a big sample of people, and I'm going to teach you how to look at their hands, look at their right hand, and guess their sexual orientation, and you're going to be right 95% of the time.
你收集了大量的人样本，我将教你如何看他们的手，看他们的右手，并猜测他们的性取向，你95%的时间都是对的。
Okay?
好的？
You want to learn how?
你想学怎么学吗？
So look at the right hand, pay really careful attention to whether the index finger is shorter than the ring finger, and no matter what you see, guess straight, and you will be right 95% of the time if it was a random sample of people.
所以看右手，要非常仔细地注意食指是否比无名指短，无论你看到什么，直接猜测，如果是随机抽样的人，你95%的时间都是对的。
So the important thing to get across is that while these average differences across group are theoretically important, because they do indeed indicate that lesbians are more likely to have been exposed to slightly more testosterone before birth, that doesn't mean you can predict how much testosterone one person was exposed to from their digit ratio, because other things influence the digit ratios.
因此，需要理解的重要一点是，虽然这些群体之间的平均差异在理论上很重要，因为它们确实表明女同性恋更有可能在出生前接触到略多的睾酮激素，但这并不意味着你可以根据一个人的手指比例来预测一个人接触到的睾酮水平，因为其他因素会影响手指比例。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fascinating study.
令人着迷的研究。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
I got made fun of quite a lot, but I thought it was a blast.
我被取笑了很多，但我认为这很有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some of the more outrageous things that people have asked me about this study over the years were, and by the way, they all came from men
多年来，人们向我询问有关这项研究的一些更离谱的事情，顺便说一句，他们都来自男性
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
were, "If I cut off my index finger, will that raise my testosterone?" Someone actually asked that.
是的，“如果我砍掉我的食指，我的睾丸激素会升高吗？”还真有人这么问。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, it's not reverse causality.
不，这不是反向因果关系。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
I would've said, "Well, let's try it and see."
我会说：“好吧，让我们试试看。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Again, now, most people, I realize there are differences across the country and the world on this stance, but I think most people would say, "Yeah, okay, there's a biological variable associated with sexual orientation." The fact that it's linked to prenatal testosterone is very interesting.
现在，大多数人再次意识到，全国和世界各地在这一立场上存在差异，但我认为大多数人会说，“是的，好吧，有一个与性取向相关的生物变量。”它与产前睾酮有关的事实非常有趣。
And the question that then comes up is: Is there anything about behaviors associated with gay or straight men, gay or straight women, that change hormone levels independent of all this?
接下来出现的问题是：与男同性恋或异性恋男性、同性恋或异性恋女性相关的行为是否会独立于所有这些而改变激素水平？
Right Because put differently, I think for a number of years, people were interested in whether or not gay men, as you pointed out, would have higher or lower levels of testosterone.
是的，因为换句话来说，我认为多年来，人们对男同性恋者是否如你所指出的那样，睾丸激素水平是否较高或较低感兴趣。
The hypothesis was lower based on the effeminate stereotype.
基于女性化的刻板印象，这一假设较低。
Turned out probably the opposite outcome.
结果很可能是相反的结果。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
If anything, right.
如果有的话，对吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Anyone that went to gyms in the 1980s and '90s would also realize that the low androgen argument was wrong.
任何在 20 世纪 80 年代和 90 年代去过健身房的人都会意识到雄激素水平低的论点是错误的。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Although steroids become a problem in gyms, too, but it gets confounded.
尽管类固醇在健身房中也成为一个问题，但它会让人感到困惑。
But am I correct in remembering that this effect is also present in frogs or mice?
但我是否记得这种效应也存在于青蛙或小鼠身上？
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
The sex difference is present in mice, yes.
是的，小鼠身上存在性别差异。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's D2, D4 ratio difference.
这就是D2、D4比例的差异。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I find that amazing.
我觉得这太棒了。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Well, I did, too.
嗯，我也这么做了。
So Wendy Brown and I did that first, and I'd worked with mice and rats all my life, but I'd never noticed that the first digit is their shortest, and that the third digit is the longest, and that sometimes the second digit is longer than...
所以温迪·布朗和我首先做到了这一点，我一生都在和老鼠打交道，但我从来没有注意到第一个数字是它们最短的，第三个数字是最长的，有时第二个数字比……长。
Evolution's real, right?
进化论是真实的，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
It happened.
它发生了。
And so yeah, there's a sex difference there, and a group looked at mice and did lots of genetic manipulations, and it turns out that if you make the androgen receptor dysfunctional, the sex difference goes away.
所以，是的，那里存在性别差异，一组人观察了老鼠并做了很多基因操作，结果发现，如果你使雄激素受体功能失调，性别差异就会消失。
And they showed that in mice at least, there's more androgen receptor in the growing bones of the fourth digit than the second digit.
他们表明，至少在小鼠中，第四根手指正在生长的骨骼中比第二根手指有更多的雄激素受体。
And then they showed that that's why the fourth digit grows a little bit more than the second digit.
然后他们表明，这就是为什么第四位数字比第二位数字增长一点点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Beautiful.
美丽。
And I should've said this earlier, androgens are things like testosterone-
我应该早点说，雄激素就像睾酮一样-
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Exactly
正是如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
DHT, other androgens.
DHT，其他雄激素。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Men and women both have them, other animals have them.
男人和女人都有，其他动物也有。
Incredible.
极好的。
So let's talk about effects of testosterone when we're in the womb.
那么让我们来谈谈睾丸激素在子宫内的影响。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Obviously, it's having an organizing effect on the body plan, this D4, D2 ratio.
显然，它对身体计划（D4、D2 比例）有组织作用。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What about in the brain?
那么在大脑中呢？
What is known about brain differences between men and women that identify as straight or gay?
关于男性和女性之间识别异性恋或同性恋的大脑差异，我们了解多少？
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Well, in terms of prenatally, we don't know, but the very famous study from Simon LeVay, who's already a highly respected neuroscientist, lots of wonderful papers in development of the visual system.
嗯，就产前而言，我们不知道，但是西蒙·勒维（Simon LeVay）的非常著名的研究，他已经是一位备受尊敬的神经科学家，在视觉系统的发育方面发表了很多精彩的论文。
Simon LeVay got everyone's attention well before we did when he looked at a brain region in the hypothalamus, a specific region called the preoptic area or POA, and he looked there and compared the size of the POA in the brains of gay men versus straight men.
西蒙·勒维（Simon LeVay）在我们之前就引起了大家的注意，当时他观察了下丘脑的一个大脑区域，一个称为视前区或 POA 的特定区域，他观察了那里并比较了男同性恋者与异性恋者大脑中 POA 的大小。
And he looked in the preoptic area because in rats, there's a very prominent sexual difference or sex dimorphism in a nucleus in the rat brain, in the preoptic area.
他观察了视前区，因为在大鼠中，大鼠大脑视前区的细胞核存在非常显着的性别差异或性别二态性。
And the nucleus got named the sexually dimorphic nucleus of the preoptic area, the SDNPOA.
该核被命名为视前区性二形核，SDNPOA。
And Simon knew there was a huge sex difference there in rats, and so he looked at the brains of gay and straight men and found a nucleus there that may or may not be the same as the SDNPOA, but is larger in men than in women.
西蒙知道老鼠体内存在巨大的性别差异，因此他观察了同性恋和异性恋男性的大脑，发现那里有一个细胞核，可能与 SDPOA 相同，也可能不同，但男性的细胞核比女性的大。
And what he found was that the nucleus in gay men was smaller than in straight men, and in fact, not significantly different from the size of the nucleus in women.
他发现男同性恋者的细胞核比异性恋者的细胞核小，事实上，与女性的细胞核大小没有显着差异。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it wasn't hyper male like the finger length ratio was.
所以它并不像手指长度比例那样超级男性。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
No. In that case, it indicated either less androgen exposure or less of a response to the androgen that was there.
不。在这种情况下，它表明雄激素暴露较少或对雄激素的反应较少。
And Simon got even more of an uproar than I did, published his paper in "Science," and there were lots of people that were very skeptical, including some neuroscientists.
西蒙比我引起了更大的轩然大波，他在《科学》上发表了他的论文，很多人都非常怀疑，包括一些神经科学家。
But eventually, another group replicated it.
但最终，另一个团队复制了它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's what I was going to ask, because I recall that the two major critiques of the paper, one was fair in my opinion.
这就是我要问的，因为我记得对这篇论文的两个主要批评，其中一个在我看来是公平的。
It was that some of the postmortem samples were from people who had died of AIDS, and so AIDS has some known neurodegenerative effects-
就是有些尸检样本来自死于艾滋病的人，所以艾滋病有一些已知的神经退行性影响——
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that may or may not have impacted the samples, although hopefully they controlled for that.
这可能会或可能不会影响样本，尽管希望他们能够控制这一点。
And then, as I recall, he also got some pushback because he is openly gay, and people accused him of agendered.
然后，据我记得，他也受到了一些阻力，因为他是公开的同性恋，人们指责他有性别歧视。
I didn't say gendered, I said agendered-
我没有说性别，我说的是无性别-
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
science.
科学。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yep.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You know.
你知道。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
That he was part of some conspiracy, a gay agenda to force Americans to regard people with same-sex orientation as somehow okay.
他是某种阴谋的一部分，是一个同性恋议程的一部分，旨在迫使美国人认为同性取向的人在某种程度上是可以接受的。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But a replication of the study from an independent group that presumably has no reason to be biased whatsoever.
但这项研究的复制来自一个独立的小组，想必没有任何理由存在偏见。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Well, they were very skeptical of it, so that was William Byer who eventually...
好吧，他们对此非常怀疑，所以威廉·拜尔最终......
And there's an interesting aspect of it.
其中有一个有趣的方面。
It took him a long time to get a sample big enough because Simon, it was such a horrible time in AIDS epidemic.
他花了很长时间才获得足够大的样本，因为西蒙，那是艾滋病流行的可怕时期。
There were so many young men dying that Simon had no trouble finding enough brains to do the sample.
有如此多的年轻人死去，西蒙毫不费力地找到足够的大脑来进行样本采集。
And then as treatment got better, the death rates of HIV started going down, and so it took longer for William Byer to gather the samples.
然后，随着治疗的改善，艾滋病毒的死亡率开始下降，因此威廉·拜尔花了更长的时间来收集样本。
But eventually he did, and even though he was skeptical of it, he saw it, too.
但最终他做到了，尽管他对此表示怀疑，但他也看到了这一点。
The question about AIDS, Simon was able to address that in that he also had some straight men who had AIDS, and they weren't significantly different from other straight men.
关于艾滋病的问题，西蒙能够回答这个问题，因为他也有一些患有艾滋病的直男，而且他们与其他直男没有显着不同。
And so it was widely interpreted as proof that sexual orientation is not a choice, that it's something that happens to you.
因此，它被广泛解释为证明性取向不是一种选择，而是发生在你身上的事情。
And of course, I don't think sexual orientation is a choice.
当然，我不认为性取向是一种选择。
That's true.
这是真的。
But Simon himself made it clear that he could only look at this nucleus in adults.
但西蒙本人明确表示，他只能在成人身上观察这个细胞核。
It's so tiny.
它是如此之小。
The sexually dimorphic nucleus, the preoptic area in humans, it's about the size of a grain of sand.
性二态核，即人类的视前区，大约有一粒沙子大小。
So you got to have a microscope, and there's no non-invasive way to look at it.
所以你必须有一台显微镜，但没有非侵入性的方法来观察它。
And he pointed out that he didn't know what the order of causation was.
他指出他不知道因果关系的顺序是什么。
He didn't know if those men had been born with a smaller SDNPOA, and that's why they became gay, or did something else cause them to become gay and also cause the SDNPOA to get smaller?
他不知道这些男人是否生来就有较小的SDNPOA，这就是他们成为同性恋的原因，或者是否有其他原因导致他们成为同性恋，也导致SDNPOA变小？
And for the public, the idea that a nucleus might change its size in adulthood, maybe that seems unlikely.
对于公众来说，细胞核可能会在成年后改变其大小的想法似乎不太可能。
But as neuroscientists, we know that adult brains are changing all the time.
但作为神经科学家，我们知道成年人的大脑一直在变化。
In fact, even in animals, Brad Cook showed that there was a nucleus, the medial amygdala, there's sex difference there, but if you take away the testosterone in males, sex difference goes away in just a matter of a few weeks.
事实上，即使在动物中，布拉德·库克也表明存在一个核心，即内侧杏仁核，那里存在性别差异，但如果去掉雄性体内的睾酮，性别差异在几周内就会消失。
So Simon's work on the SDNPOA, also known as INA3, I won't bother with why-
所以西蒙在SDNPOA上的工作，也称为INA3，我不会费心为什么-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Unfortunately, I remember the full name because my brain-
不幸的是，我记得全名，因为我的大脑 -
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
I know.
我知道。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's the interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus-
它是下丘脑前部的间质核
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
subregion three.
次区域三.
I'm not saying that to impress anyone.
我这么说并不是为了给任何人留下深刻印象。
When you get to be 50, which I can now say that, you wonder why your hippocampus remembers certain things that are basically totally useless to remember.
当你到了 50 岁时，我现在可以这么说，你会想知道为什么你的海马体会记住某些基本上完全无用的东西。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
I waste so many synapses on totally useless crap .
我把这么多突触浪费在完全无用的垃圾上。
But that's worth holding onto.
但这是值得坚持的。
You did well.
你做得很好。
So, we don't know.
所以，我们不知道。
It's a chicken and egg problem.
这是一个先有鸡还是先有蛋的问题。
We don't know if that happened, if they were gay because they had a small INA3, or do they have a small INA3 because they're gay.
我们不知道这是否发生过，他们是同性恋是因为他们有一个小 INA3，还是他们有一个小 INA3 因为他们是同性恋。
So what I liked about Dennis' otoacoustic emissions, and is pretty good evidence that that happened well before they had a sexual orientation, and the other thing I always liked about it is that, well, you can't imagine there's a social influence on digit-- And nobody knew about this.
所以我喜欢丹尼斯的耳声发射，这是很好的证据，证明这发生在他们有性取向之前，而我一直喜欢的另一件事是，你无法想象数字对社会有影响——而且没有人知道这一点。
So I wasn't worried that there were some little girls out there that looked at their hand and said, "Hmm, gee, that looks kind of masculine.
所以我并不担心会有一些小女孩看着她们的手说：“嗯，天哪，这看起来有点男性化。
Maybe I should be a lesbian." Because nobody knew this.
也许我应该成为一名女同性恋。”因为没人知道这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Until your paper was published.
直到你的论文发表。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yes, yeah.
是的，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As I recall, there was some schoolyard stuff of kids looking at each other's hands-
我记得，有一些校园里的孩子们互相看着对方的手——
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Absolutely
绝对
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and trying to decide who was gay and who was straight, and-
并试图决定谁是同性恋，谁是异性恋，然后——
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Every once in a while, to this day, on the internet, I'll look at them, and there'll be a little ad over there claiming to tell me something about my personality based on digit ratio length, and it's just like, please.
直到今天，我偶尔会在互联网上查看它们，那里会有一个小广告，声称可以根据数字比例长度告诉我一些关于我的个性的信息，就像，拜托。
Yeah, there's nothing to it.
是啊，没什么可说的。
Don't waste your money, gang.
别浪费钱了，伙计。
And there's an aspect to this, this fact that the group differences were there, but you can't tell about differences between individuals, that I think is the hardest thing for scientists to communicate to the public at large.
这有一个方面，即群体差异确实存在，但你无法分辨个体之间的差异，我认为这是科学家向广大公众传达的最难的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
You have a really good way of explaining this to people because, and it's an important lesson just in reading statistics and making sense of data that I'd love for you to give an example of-
你有一个很好的方式向人们解释这一点，因为这是阅读统计数据和理解数据的重要一课，我希望你能举个例子——
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
how this plays out, perhaps in a separate example.
这是如何发挥作用的，也许在一个单独的例子中。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Psychologists, they like to talk about a way of measuring how big a difference is between two groups.
心理学家喜欢谈论一种衡量两组之间差异有多大的方法。
So this difference in digit ratios between men and women, it's a relatively small difference.
因此，男性和女性之间的数字比例差异相对较小。
It's like, well, we measure it in terms of how many standard deviations apart are the two means of the populations.
就像，我们用总体的两种均值相差多少个标准差来衡量它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The two averages.
两个平均值。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
The two averages.
两个平均值。
And to give an example of that, everyone knows about the sex difference in human height among adults.
举个例子，每个人都知道成年人身高的性别差异。
So that's a huge sex difference.
所以这是一个巨大的性别差异。
It's one where we're all aware of it, and if nobody had told us it was such a thing, we'd notice it after a while.
这是我们都知道的事情，如果没有人告诉我们是这样的事情，我们会在一段时间后注意到它。
And that's because those two averages and those two populations are about two standard deviations apart, the standard deviation being a measure of how much variability there is in something.
这是因为这两个平均值和这两个总体相差大约两个标准差，标准差是衡量某事物存在多少变异性的指标。
So that's a huge sex difference.
所以这是一个巨大的性别差异。
And to give you an idea of what that means, if I had you grab a sample of 1,000 people, and I'm going to tell you one thing about each one of them, and that's their height.
为了让你了解这意味着什么，如果我让你抽取 1,000 个人的样本，我会告诉你关于他们每个人的一件事，那就是他们的身高。
That's all.
就这样。
And now I give you the job, you've got to guess what sex they are.
现在我给你这份工作，你必须猜出他们的性别。
And I can tell you what you want to do to maximize your hit rate.
我可以告诉你你想做什么来最大化你的命中率。
Everyone who is 5 feet, 5 1/2, you're going to say those are men.
每个身高 5 英尺 5 1/2 的人，你都会说他们是男人。
And if they're less than that, you're going to say they're women.
如果她们比这个少，你就会说她们是女人。
And you'll be right about 80% of the time, which means you'll be wrong almost 20% of the time.
大约 80% 的时间你是对的，这意味着你几乎 20% 的时间是错的。
And so you can see that there's some predictive power there, but it's far from perfect.
所以你可以看到这里有一定的预测能力，但它还远非完美。
Well, this sex difference in digit ratios is half a standard deviation, so a quarter of that.
好吧，这种数字比例的性别差异是标准差的一半，所以是四分之一。
And so that means there's much more overlap.
这意味着有更多的重叠。
And we know that other things influence digit ratios, too, not just prenatal testosterone.
我们知道，其他因素也会影响手指比例，而不仅仅是产前睾丸激素。
And so this is why there's no predictive value.
这就是为什么没有预测价值的原因。
So anyone who looked at their hand while we were talking about this and got worried, I don't know anything about your particular prenatal testosterone level, no matter what your digit ratio is.
因此，当我们谈论这个问题时，任何看着自己的手并感到担心的人，我都不知道您特定的产前睾酮水平，无论您的手指比例是多少。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What about bisexuality, people who identify as attracted to both men and women?
那么双性恋（即同时对男性和女性都有吸引力的人）又如何呢？
And maybe we ask about first bisexual women, then bisexual men.
也许我们首先会问双性恋女性，然后是双性恋男性。
Is there a pattern in digit ratios that leads anywhere?
数字比例是否存在某种领先的模式？
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
In those days, we didn't have enough people that identified as bisexual to have a reasonable sample, and it's interesting.
在那些日子里，我们没有足够多的双性恋者来获得合理的样本，这很有趣。
And that's something that's changed.
这就是改变的事情。
If you do surveys now, especially among younger people, there are more people who report that they are bisexual than there were then.
如果你现在做调查，特别是在年轻人中，就会发现有更多的人报告自己是双性恋。
So I don't really have anything to say about them.
所以我对他们真的没什么可说的。
The one thing I will say is I'm sure that even among lesbians, there's more than one pathway More than one developmental pathway to become a lesbian or to become a gay man, right?
我要说的一件事是，我确信即使在女同性恋者中，也有不止一种途径成为女同性恋者或男同性恋者，对吧？
I don't think there's just one thing.
我不认为只有一件事。
That's not how human behavior works.
人类行为不是这样运作的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But you do think it's based on the data that it's biological.
但你确实认为它是基于生物学数据。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Based on that data, I think testosterone has a say.
根据这些数据，我认为睾酮有发言权。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Right?
对吗？
That doesn't mean it's the whole package.
这并不意味着它是整个包。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Prenatal testosterone.
产前睾酮。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Prenatal testosterone.
产前睾酮。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the reason I ask that is, there are conditions that are not uncommon where someone has a particularly stressful, long phase of development where there's every reason to believe that their androgens are impacted negatively.
我问这个问题的原因是，有些情况并不少见，有些人处于特别紧张、漫长的发育阶段，有充分的理由相信他们的雄激素受到负面影响。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's also every reason to believe that there are stretches of development where androgens are increased.
我们也有充分的理由相信，在发育的某些阶段，雄激素会增加。
We know that people who do a sort of contact sport-
我们知道从事某种接触运动的人-
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or engage in anything that requires deliberate aggression.
或从事任何需要故意攻击的事情。
I realize that real martial artists-
我意识到真正的武术家——
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Competitiveness
竞争力
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
know, competitive aggression, know how to sort of gate their levels of aggression so that they're not in a fury, right?
知道，竞争性侵略，知道如何控制他们的侵略程度，这样他们就不会愤怒，对吗？
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But we know that certain types of activities, competition, et cetera, there's no question that those can increase androgens.
但我们知道，某些类型的活动、竞争等，毫无疑问会增加雄激素。
So you can imagine there's some plasticity postnatally, and that could be-
所以你可以想象出生后有一些可塑性，那可能是——
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Of course
当然
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
before puberty, it could be during puberty.
青春期之前，也可能是青春期期间。
And so that's testosterone there, the body.
这就是身体里的睾丸激素。
You said something that even as a developmental neurobiologist, I don't think I'd ever heard stated so clearly, and it's so important, that the rate of brain development from birth until age 12 is at least as fast as it was before we're born.
你说过的话，即使作为一名发育神经生物学家，我想我也从未听过如此明确的说法，而且这一点非常重要，即从出生到 12 岁的大脑发育速度至少与出生前一样快。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yeah.
是的。
The way to really bring that home is to compare human brain growth and chimpanzee brain growth.
真正领会这一点的方法是比较人类大脑的发育和黑猩猩的大脑发育。
So up until birth, the rate at which brain size increases compared to body size is about the same in humans and chimps.
因此，在出生之前，人类和黑猩猩的大脑尺寸相对于身体尺寸的增加速度大致相同。
And shortly after birth, the chimpanzee brain stops growing as fast and eventually asymptotes right away.
出生后不久，黑猩猩的大脑就停止快速生长，最终立即渐近。
The human brain continues that feverish fetal rate of growth until at least six years of age, maybe out there to 10 years of age.
人类的大脑会继续以胎儿般的速度快速生长，直到至少 6 岁，甚至可能到 10 岁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
So people have pointed out that in a real sense, human beings, children are fetuses that are outside learning a whole bunch of stuff from other people.
所以人们指出，从真正意义上来说，人类、儿童是在外面从别人那里学习一大堆东西的胎儿。
That's the real distinctiveness of our species, is we have this protracted childhood and really intense social learning, and as you say, a fetal rate of growth even though we're not in the fetus anymore.
这就是我们这个物种的真正独特之处，就是我们有漫长的童年和真正强烈的社会学习，正如你所说，即使我们不再是胎儿，也有胎儿的生长速度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I guess for me, the idea that behavior, exposure to things, and I don't want to get into valence of negative, positive, but sure, pesticides, but also, schoolyard activities.
所以我想对我来说，行为、接触事物的想法，我不想陷入消极、积极的价态，但当然，农药，还有校园活动。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you have, and we'll get to this, five siblings and it's very competitive of who gets how much pizza.
如果你有，我们会讨论这个，五个兄弟姐妹，谁得到多少披萨是非常有竞争力的。
I had one sibling, so it was a little bit, there was competition, but it was different, right?
我有一个兄弟姐妹，所以有点，有竞争，但不一样，对吧？
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
These things change hormones, hormones change the brain.
这些东西会改变荷尔蒙，荷尔蒙会改变大脑。
The brain, as you're explaining, can impact sexual preference.
正如您所解释的，大脑可以影响性偏好。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
What's great about studying hormones and behavior, right, is that sometimes you can control the hormone in animals at least.
研究激素和行为的好处在于，有时你至少可以控制动物体内的激素。
But the hard thing about hormones and behavior that people don't understand is that behavior can affect hormones, as you say.
但人们不理解的关于荷尔蒙和行为的难点是，行为会影响荷尔蒙，正如你所说。
In competitions, the winners afterwards are more likely to have higher testosterone, and the losers will have lower.
在比赛中，后来的获胜者更有可能拥有更高的睾酮激素，而失败者的睾酮激素则更低。
In elections, it's been shown that people whose candidate won the presidential election, their testosterone levels went up a little bit, and the people whose candidate lost went down a little.
在选举中，研究表明，候选人赢得总统选举的人，其睾丸激素水平略有上升，而候选人落选的人，睾丸激素水平略有下降。
And so you'll always have this cycle where the hormone alters the behavior, and then the behavior alters the hormone, and you always have to look for ways to try to pin down the order of effects.
因此，你总是会经历这样的循环：激素改变行为，然后行为改变激素，你总是必须寻找方法来确定影响的顺序。
And not always easy.
而且并不总是那么容易。
The only thing I know for sure is that the brain remains plastic all of our lives.
我唯一确定的是，大脑在我们的一生中都保持着可塑性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, that statement is a significant one because I also believe that the brain remains plastic throughout our lives.
嗯，这一说法很重要，因为我也相信大脑在我们的一生中都保持可塑性。
It's always surprising to me that the hypothalamus remains plastic throughout our lives, and I think that's worth perhaps double-clicking on, so to speak.
令我惊讶的是，下丘脑在我们的一生中都保持可塑性，可以说，我认为这也许值得双击。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because the idea that you can learn another language and your neocortex changes, or you can learn to juggle and your motor cortex changes, your cerebellum changes.
因为你可以学习另一种语言，你的新皮质会发生变化，或者你可以学习杂耍，你的运动皮层会发生变化，你的小脑就会发生变化。
Okay.
好的。
There's a lot of beautiful studies demonstrating that.
有很多精彩的研究证明了这一点。
But when I think about the hypothalamus, I think about it as something that's pretty hardwired by time puberty wraps up.
但当我想到下丘脑时，我认为它是在青春期结束时就已经形成的东西。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the more I learn, and the more data that get published, the more surprised I am.
但我了解得越多，发表的数据越多，我就越感到惊讶。
I saw a paper just the other day that the neurons that control suppression of appetite-
前几天我看到一篇论文，控制食欲抑制的神经元——
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
these POMC neurons in the arcuate nucleus, there's a population of them that are sort of undifferentiated that can become, let's just call it pro-hunger, by expressing a different peptide, neuropeptide Y.
在弓状核中的这些 POMC 神经元中，有一群未分化的神经元可以通过表达不同的肽（神经肽 Y）而成为（我们姑且称之为促饥饿）。
And that there's a lot of late-stage plasticity, and this may explain why people who reach a certain level of obesity may actually find that they're hungrier despite not needing food.
而且存在很多后期可塑性，这可以解释为什么达到一定肥胖程度的人实际上可能会发现尽管不需要食物，但他们却更饥饿。
So it's fascinating to me how these deeper brain structures may actually remain plastic.
因此，令我着迷的是，这些更深层次的大脑结构实际上如何保持可塑性。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
I think both your statements are true.
我认为你的两种说法都是正确的。
I think it's probably true that the neocortex is more plastic than the hypothalamus, but it's a matter of relativity.
我认为新皮质比下丘脑更具可塑性，这可能是真的，但这是一个相对性问题。
And so as you say, the one thing we know is that there's plenty of plasticity there.
正如你所说，我们知道的一件事是那里有足够的可塑性。
The other thing I noticed, so I've gone to Society for Neuroscience meetings pretty regularly every year since 1977, and after a while, I noticed something.
我注意到的另一件事是，自 1977 年以来，我每年都会定期参加神经科学学会的会议，过了一段时间，我注意到了一些事情。
Every year when I went to the neuroscience meeting, the brain was more plastic than it was the year before, right?
每年我去参加神经科学会议时，大脑都比前一年更具可塑性，对吗？
Because there are more and more of these demonstrations, and it's like I think synapses can come and go just about anywhere.
因为这样的演示越来越多，而且我认为突触几乎可以在任何地方出现和消失。
And so hardwired, well, let's say there might be less plasticity in the hypothalamus, surely so, but that doesn't mean there's none.
如此硬连线，好吧，假设下丘脑的可塑性可能较低，确实如此，但这并不意味着没有可塑性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 for nearly 15 years now.
你们很多人都知道，我服用 AG1 已有近 15 年了。
I discovered it way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since.
我早在 2012 年就发现了它，那时我还没有播客，从那时起我就每天都在听它。
The reason I started taking it, and the reason I still take it, is because AG1 is, to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market.
我开始服用它的原因，以及我仍然服用它的原因，是因为据我所知，AG1是市场上质量最高、最全面的基础营养补充剂。
It combines vitamins, minerals, prebiotics, probiotics, and adaptogens into a single scoop that's easy to drink, and it tastes great.
它将维生素、矿物质、益生元、益生菌和适应原结合到一勺中，易于饮用，味道极佳。
It's designed to support things like gut health, immune health, and overall energy, and it does so by helping to fill any gaps you might have in your daily nutrition.
它旨在支持肠道健康、免疫健康和整体能量等，并通过帮助填补您日常营养中可能存在的任何缺口来实现这一目标。
Now, of course, everyone should strive to eat nutritious whole foods.
当然，现在每个人都应该努力吃有营养的天然食品。
I certainly do that every day.
我当然每天都这样做。
But I'm often asked, if you could take just one supplement, what would that supplement be?
但我经常被问到，如果您只能服用一种补充剂，那么该补充剂会是什么？
And my answer is always AG1, because it has just been so critical to supporting all aspects of my physical health, mental health, and performance.
我的答案始终是 AG1，因为它对于支持我的身体健康、心理健康和表现的各个方面都非常重要。
I know this from my own experience with AG1, and I continually hear this from other people who use AG1 daily.
我从自己使用 AG1 的经验中了解到这一点，并且我不断从其他每天使用 AG1 的人那里听到这一点。
If you would like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 以获得特别优惠。
For a limited time, AG1 is giving away six free travel packs of AG1 and a bottle of vitamin D3+K2 with your subscription.
限时订阅后，AG1 将赠送 6 个免费 AG1 旅行包和一瓶维生素 D3+K2。
Again, that's drinkag1, with the numeral one, .com/huberman to get six free travel packs and a bottle of vitamin D3+K2 with your subscription.
再次强调，这是 Drinkag1，通过数字 1 .com/huberman 订阅即可获得六个免费旅行包和一瓶维生素 D3+K2。
What are some of the other effects in human studies of behavior-impacting hormones that come to mind for you?
您想到的关于影响行为的激素的人类研究中还有哪些其他影响？
It's been a while since we've touched into this, and we haven't done it much on this podcast.
我们已经有一段时间没有触及这个问题了，而且我们在这个播客上还没有做太多的事情。
Obviously competition, winners, losers, you explained the data there.
显然是竞争，赢家，输家，你解释了那里的数据。
What are some other scenarios, just studies that have been striking to you or that have stood out over the years?
还有哪些其他场景，只是让您印象深刻或多年来脱颖而出的研究？
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
No, for testosterone, I think the big ones have been competition between males.
不，对于睾丸激素，我认为最重要的是男性之间的竞争。
And no, there's a stress response, but that's a whole other thing.
不，有压力反应，但那是另一回事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What about sex behavior itself?
性行为本身又如何呢？
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
In animals at least, we know that there's a relationship there, that in males of most species, let's take rats, if you take away the testosterone, within a few weeks, they'll stop mounting altogether.
至少在动物中，我们知道其中存在一种关系，在大多数物种的雄性中，以老鼠为例，如果你去掉睾丸激素，几周之内，它们就会完全停止生长。
And if you give them testosterone, after a few weeks, they start mounting again.
如果你给它们注射睾酮，几周后它们就会再次开始生长。
So we know that that plasticity is there, and we know that it's driven by testosterone.
所以我们知道可塑性是存在的，而且我们知道它是由睾酮驱动的。
But in animals where they're in charge of their own testosterone, we've known for a long time that if a male is exposed to the odors of a receptive female, that causes a spike in their testosterone.
但在动物中，它们负责自己的睾酮激素，我们很早就知道，如果雄性暴露于雌性的气味中，就会导致它们的睾酮水平激增。
And so that's kind of preparing them for maybe I'll be lucky, maybe there's something coming down the pike.
所以这让他们做好了准备，也许我会很幸运，也许会有什么事情发生。
And so we know that that's a reciprocal relationship when the animal's in charge of the hormone.
所以我们知道，当动物负责激素时，这是一种相互关系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For the longest time, thanks to your textbooks, and by the way, folks, Marc has authored some of the most important textbooks on hormones and behavior, developmental neurobiology.
长期以来，多亏了你们的教科书，顺便说一句，各位，马克撰写了一些关于激素和行为、发育神经生物学的最重要的教科书。
He's a true scholar of the whole field, and so I'm immensely grateful to him that those textbooks have formed the backbone of a lot of solo episodes of the podcast.
他是整个领域的真正学者，所以我非常感谢他，这些教科书构成了播客许多独奏节目的支柱。
So the textbook version of male versus female sexual behavior has been a story about females having a circuit that goes from brain to body to control this thing they call lordosis, the arching of the lower back, the receptivity, the willingness to mate, and the males having a circuit that goes from brain to spinal cord to body, involving arousal, erection, mounting, insertion, ejaculation.
因此，教科书版本的男性与女性性行为是这样一个故事：女性有一个从大脑到身体的回路来控制他们所谓的前凸、下背部拱起、接受能力、交配意愿，而男性则有一个从大脑到脊髓再到身体的回路，涉及性唤起、勃起、安装、插入和射精。
Your lab and others has really parsed this right down to the details.
你的实验室和其他人已经真正解析了这个细节。
And yet, of course, people have sex that way, but also other ways.
然而，当然，人们以这种方式发生性行为，但也有其他方式。
And so for a lot of people who aren't familiar with hormones and neural circuits and behavior, the sort of strict context still forms the framework.
因此，对于许多不熟悉激素、神经回路和行为的人来说，这种严格的背景仍然构成了框架。
I've learned, and I'm now fortunate that this podcast has been around more than five years, so I no longer have to tap dance around things, right?
我已经学会了，现在我很幸运，这个播客已经存在五年多了，所以我不再需要围绕着事情跳踢踏舞，对吧？
So people will say, "Oh, well, there's this lordosis behavior in the female.
所以人们会说，“哦，好吧，女性有这种脊柱前凸的行为。
She's receptive or not.
她接受与否。
He mounts, et cetera." And then there's gay men who have to have sex a certain way that mimics the female sex pattern of behavior.
他上马，等等。”还有一些男同性恋者必须以某种模仿女性性行为模式的方式发生性行为。
And so people do this one-to-one, right?
所以人们是一对一地做这件事，对吧？
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think that it's understandable why they do that if they're not educated.
我认为，如果他们没有受过教育，他们这样做是可以理解的。
But how should we make sense of these biological circuits that are in the textbooks that define stereotyped, literally motor behavior?
但是，我们应该如何理解教科书中定义刻板的、字面上的运动行为的生物回路呢？
It's almost like saying, females have sex this way with males, males have sex this way with females, but then the caveat is always, but in humans, all that goes away, and there's these bonobos that are a little bit more like humans.
这几乎就像在说，雌性与雄性以这种方式发生性关系，雄性与雌性也以这种方式发生性关系，但需要注意的是，但在人类中，所有这些都消失了，而且这些倭黑猩猩更像人类。
So did we waste all our time studying that stuff?
那么我们是否浪费了所有的时间来研究这些东西呢？
Really.
真的。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
And you're getting at exactly what every textbook author has to deal with, which is as the old joke go, you look where the light is, right?
你正在了解每个教科书作者都必须处理的问题，就像老笑话所说的那样，你看看光在哪里，对吧？
So we know so much more about the circuits that are involved in the motor behaviors because they're relatively easy to trace and relatively easy to manipulate and relatively easy to study.
因此，我们对参与运动行为的电路了解得更多，因为它们相对容易追踪、相对容易操作和研究。
We know lots about the motor patterns in animals.
我们对动物的运动模式了解很多。
We know a lot less about the motivational patterns in animals, which in human sexual behavior is in many ways, that's the whole show.
我们对动物的动机模式知之甚少，而人类性行为的动机模式在很多方面都是如此，这就是全部。
And we don't really have good animal models of libido.
我们确实没有良好的性欲动物模型。
And this was brought home to me many years ago now.
很多年前我就意识到了这一点。
I was on a session of "60 Minutes," the CBS News program, and Leslie Stahl was there in our lab.
我正在参加哥伦比亚广播公司新闻节目“60 分钟”的节目，莱斯利·斯塔尔也在我们的实验室里。
The producers had called me up and said, "Can you show us a way that early testosterone exposure changes behavior permanently?" And I said, "Sure, I can do that.
制片人打电话给我说：“你能向我们展示一种让早期睾酮暴露永久改变行为的方法吗？”我说：“当然，我能做到。
Give me some time." So I went to the lab and castrated a bunch of rats on the day of birth.
给我一些时间。”所以我去实验室，在一群老鼠出生的那天阉割了它们。
I know how to do that.
我知道该怎么做。
I'm not proud of it, but I know how to do that.
我并不为此感到自豪，但我知道该怎么做。
And they came three months later, and so I showed them those motor patterns you talk about.
三个月后他们来了，所以我向他们展示了你所说的那些运动模式。
So here's a typical female.
这是一个典型的女性。
I've given her hormones, estrogen, progesterone, so I know she's going to be receptive.
我已经给她注射了激素、雌激素、黄体酮，所以我知道她会接受的。
And here's a male rat that I know has had lots of experience copulating.
这是一只雄性老鼠，我知道它有很多交配的经验。
And Leslie immediately dubbed him Romeo.
莱斯利立即给他起了个绰号“罗密欧”。
Okay.
好的。
Well, this is Romeo.
嗯，这是罗密欧。
And she hates rats, by the way, so she was very brave.
顺便说一句，她讨厌老鼠，所以她非常勇敢。
And so I drop a female on top of Romeo, and he starts mounting, and she shows the lordosis posture, and it's all beautiful and easy.
所以我把一只雌性放在罗密欧身上，他开始骑上，她表现出脊柱前凸的姿势，这一切都很美丽和容易。
And we do that several...
我们这样做了好几次...
And I said, "Now I'm going to drop a male, a control male in." And Romeo, of course, you don't know unless you try.
我说：“现在我要放一只雄性，一只对照雄性。”当然，罗密欧，除非你尝试，否则你不会知道。
He mounts several times, and the male rat acts like nothing's going on, I mean, is just the bored thing on Earth, and Romeo eventually gives up.
他骑了几次，雄性老鼠表现得好像什么也没发生，我的意思是，这只是地球上无聊的事情，罗密欧最终放弃了。
Now I drop into the cage a male rat who I castrated on the day of birth, 90 days before, and I've given him the same hormones I gave the female to make her receptive.
现在，我把一只雄性老鼠放进笼子里，我在出生那天，即 90 天前，对它进行了阉割，然后我给它注射了与雌性相同的激素，以使其具有接受性。
Romeo hops on, and sure enough, a beautiful lordosis, right, of the sort that the control male never showed.
罗密欧跳上来，果然，他有一个美丽的前凸，对，这是控制男性从未表现出的那种。
So here, this neonatally castrated male is showing very female-like patterns.
所以在这里，这个刚出生的阉割男性表现出非常像女性的模式。
And Ms. Stahl kept asking me, "Would you say this is a gay rat?" And I'm sitting there, and I'm definitely in a tough spot because I don't think my rats have an orientation.
斯塔尔女士一直问我，“你会说这是一只同性恋老鼠吗？”我坐在那里，我的处境肯定很艰难，因为我认为我的老鼠没有方向。
We just saw Romeo happily mount any rat I threw in the cage because what do you know?
我们刚刚看到罗密欧高兴地骑上了我扔进笼子里的老鼠，因为你知道什么？
Try your luck.
试试你的运气。
And so she asked me several, and I knew she wanted me to say that, but I said, "What I would say," I don't remember exactly what ended up in the final edit.
所以她问了我几个问题，我知道她想让我这么说，但我说，“我会说什么，”我不记得最终编辑的具体内容。
What I would say is, "This is a rat whose sexual behavior has been permanently changed because of something that happened to him a long time ago, at the very beginning of development." And really, that's the best I can do in terms of any rat model of sexual orientation.
我想说的是，“这是一只性行为被永久改变的老鼠，因为很久以前发生在他身上的事情，在发育的最初阶段。”事实上，就任何性取向的老鼠模型而言，这就是我能做的最好的事情。
I don't think my rats have a sexual orientation.
我不认为我的老鼠有性取向。
If I give the female those hormones, she's going to show lordosis to whoever mounts her.
如果我给雌性这些荷尔蒙，无论谁骑在她身上，她都会表现出脊柱前凸。
And my male rat, he will mount any rat he comes across just in case he gets a lordosis out of them.
我的雄性老鼠，他会骑上他遇到的任何老鼠，以防万一他的脊柱前凸。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, good on you for not getting corralled into giving a particular answer.
好吧，幸好你没有被迫给出特定的答案。
I've recently joined CBS as a correspondent.
我最近作为记者加入了哥伦比亚广播公司。
If we have this conversation on "60 Minutes", I promise to not try and enforce an answer.
如果我们在“60 分钟”节目中进行此对话，我保证不会尝试强制执行答案。
Romeo is an interesting case because I think for most people, including myself, I thought that you were going to say that Romeo was willing to try to mount a female-
罗密欧是一个有趣的案例，因为我认为对于大多数人来说，包括我自己，我认为你会说罗密欧愿意尝试骑乘雌性——
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
if she was receptive, he would mate.
如果她愿意，他就会交配。
If not, he wouldn't.
如果没有，他就不会。
But I was surprised that he would try to mount a male as well.
但令我惊讶的是，他也会尝试骑上雄性。
That doesn't align, at least with my experience of male human behavior.
这不符合，至少与我对男性人类行为的经验不符。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Well, certainly not.
嗯，当然不是。
That's right.
这是正确的。
This is the thing that's distinctive about humans, is we're not actually that particular about what particular behaviors we engage in, what motor behaviors.
这是人类的独特之处，我们实际上并不特别关注我们所从事的特定行为、运动行为。
And we're overwhelmingly interested in who our partner is, right?
我们对我们的合作伙伴是谁非常感兴趣，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
That is an overriding concern that I don't think my rats have.
这是一个压倒一切的担忧，我认为我的老鼠没有。
I think few animals do.
我想很少有动物会这样做。
You're the anthropologist from Mars, and I tell you, "Here's a person that 50%..." Whoever's the Sexiest Man Alive this year, People magazine, or I don't know who that happens to be.
你是来自火星的人类学家，我告诉你，“这是一个 50% 的人……”无论谁是《人物》杂志今年最性感的男人，或者我不知道那是谁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, this is an interesting discussion altogether because people have been lining up the images of these people and claiming that there's sort of this effeminate drift-
嗯，这完全是一个有趣的讨论，因为人们一直在排列这些人的形象，并声称存在某种女性化的倾向——
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Ah, interesting
啊，有趣
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that takes us back to a time in the early '90s when there was this sort of revision about male physicals-
这让我们回到了 90 年代初期，当时对男性体能进行了这样的修改——
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Fascinating.
令人着迷。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
we can get back to that.
我们可以回到这一点。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Okay
好的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
The point being that it's not fixed.
重点是它不是固定的。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Well, whoever, let's say it's George Clooney.
好吧，不管是谁，我们就假设是乔治·克鲁尼吧。
So here's someone that half the planet believes is an ideal sexual partner, right?
所以一半地球人都认为这是一个理想的性伴侣，对吧？
But the other half of the planet finds him totally unacceptable, even if the behaviors they engaged in would be pretty much the same.
但地球的另一半却发现他完全无法接受，即使他们的行为几乎相同。
And so in terms of positions and who's doing what to whose genitalia, et cetera, I mean, for most people, it isn't that there has to be one particular act, I suppose there's some, but for most people, there may be a variety of acts that they want to be engaged in with that other person, and their overwhelming concern is the gender of that other person or the sex of that other person.
因此，就立场和谁对谁的生殖器做什么等方面而言，我的意思是，对于大多数人来说，并不是必须有一种特定的行为，我想有一些，但对于大多数人来说，可能有多种他们想要与另一个人进行的行为，他们最关心的是另一个人的性别或另一个人的性别。
It's hard to have an animal model of that.
很难有这样的动物模型。
I actually do know one example in sheep, if you want to talk about this.
如果你想谈谈这一点的话，我实际上确实知道羊的一个例子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Of all things.
万物之中。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yes.
是的。
Oh, I noticed it.
哦，我注意到了。
So, Chuck Roselli out at Oregon, he's the one that studied this very carefully.
因此，俄勒冈州的查克·罗塞利 (Chuck Roseli) 非常仔细地研究了这一问题。
I guess shepherds have known for ages that in any herd, there are some rams who will not mount a female, ever, and keep mounting other males.
我想牧羊人很早就知道，在任何牛群中，都有一些公羊永远不会骑上雌性，而是继续骑上其他雄性。
And of course, to maintain a herd, you don't need every male to reproduce.
当然，为了维持一个群体，你不需要每个雄性都进行繁殖。
But in the old days, those males got sent off to slaughter.
但在过去，这些雄性会被送去屠宰。
Well, hearing these rumors, Chuck did these tests where he would put a bunch of females that are in stocks so they can't move, and they're all ready for mating, and he put a ram in with them, and most rams, of course, will mount the females.
嗯，听到这些谣言，查克做了这些测试，他将一群雌性放在库存中，这样它们就不能移动，它们都准备好交配，他把一只公羊和它们放在一起，当然，大多数公羊都会骑上雌性。
He puts in these rams that prefer males If there's a variety of sheep's butts sticking out at him, he'll mount males, including sometimes having intromission through the anus, and all the way to ejaculation.
他把这些更喜欢雄性的公羊放进去，如果有各种各样的羊屁股向他伸出，他就会骑上雄性，包括有时通过肛门插入，一直到射精。
And he never mounts a female.
而且他从不骑雌性。
In some cases, they'll have one of these, I'm going to call them gay rams.
在某些情况下，他们会有其中之一，我将称它们为同性恋公羊。
I think they have an orientation.
我认为他们有一个方向。
He'll put this gay ram where there's a dozen females, and he might be in that paddock for 12 hours and never mount a single female.
他会把这只同性恋公羊放在有十几只母羊的地方，他可能会在那个围场里呆上 12 个小时，却从来没有骑过一只母羊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Highly unusual for male rams.
对于雄性公羊来说非常不寻常。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
And these are not typical ram.
这些不是典型的公羊。
It's like a small percentage of the population.
这就像人口中的一小部分。
And I don't know how to explain that.
我不知道如何解释。
You would think that these gay rams, that, well, an ejaculation is an ejaculation, right?
你会认为这些同性恋公羊，射精就是射精，对吗？
An orgasm is an orgasm.
性高潮就是性高潮。
I presume they have orgasm.
我猜想他们已经达到性高潮了。
You would think that at some point, "Well, there's nothing else to do in here.
在某些时候你可能会想，“好吧，这里没有其他事可做。
I'll mount one of these ewes," and they never do.
我会骑上其中一只母羊，”但他们从来没有这样做。
And I don't know how you can explain that except that there's some aversive component, that rams do care about the sex of their partner, and that for these gay rams, there's some aversive component to that.
我不知道你能如何解释这一点，除了有一些令人厌恶的成分，公羊确实关心他们伴侣的性别，而对于这些同性恋公羊来说，有一些令人厌恶的成分。
By the way, Chuck told me not too long ago, there's a company that has identified these gay rams and decided that instead of sending them off to slaughter, they're going to harvest their wool and sell them, and make them into clothing.
顺便说一句，查克不久前告诉我，有一家公司已经识别出这些同性恋公羊，并决定不将它们送去屠宰，而是收获羊毛并出售它们，然后将它们制成衣服。
So you can buy wool clothing that came from gay rams and know that you saved them from the slaughterhouse.
因此，您可以购买来自同性恋公羊的羊毛服装，并且知道您将它们从屠宰场救了出来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's no response that's appropriate to that statement.
没有任何回应适合该声明。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
And apparently they're out of stock, so it's been a big success.
显然他们已经缺货了，所以这是一个巨大的成功。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Actually, I can think about 50 different responses to that none of which are appropriate or have any real conceptual importance.
事实上，我可以想到 50 种不同的反应，但没有一个是合适的，也没有任何真正的概念重要性。
So I won't say.
所以我不会说。
Fascinating because rams, while of course they have sociodynamics, presumably there isn't a pressure independent of reproductive pressure to be a gay ram or a straight ram.
令人着迷的是，虽然公羊当然有社会动力学，但想必不存在独立于生殖压力的压力，成为同性恋公羊或异性恋公羊。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
And I guess I left off the kicker, which is Chuck eventually dissected the preoptic areas of these various rams, and he found a difference between the preoptic area of gay rams and straight rams, a difference in how they process testosterone in exactly that part of the brain, the preoptic area, where Simon saw a difference between gay and straight men.
我想我没说重点了，查克最终解剖了这些不同公羊的视前区，他发现同性恋公羊和异性恋公羊的视前区之间存在差异，他们在大脑的视前区处理睾酮激素的方式存在差异，西蒙在其中看到了同性恋和异性恋男性的差异。
So there may be something about the hypothalamus, the preoptic area, that has something to do with orientation if we're talking about an organism as complicated enough to have an orientation, including sheep.
因此，如果我们谈论的是一个复杂到足以有方向的有机体（包括羊），那么下丘脑（视前区）可能与方向有关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is a particularly nice moment, not just for this episode, but for the entire podcast arc, because there are these moments that come up every once in a while where a larger principle shows up in a new way that I think is really important for people to understand.
这是一个特别美好的时刻，不仅对于这一集，而且对于整个播客弧来说，因为每隔一段时间就会出现一些更大的原理以新的方式出现的时刻，我认为这对人们理解非常重要。
Across neuroscience, we see this push-pull, right?
在神经科学中，我们看到了这种推拉，对吧？
A flexor muscle like the bicep, when it flexes, the tricep relaxes.
像二头肌一样的屈肌，当它弯曲时，三头肌就会放松。
When the tricep flexes, the bicep relaxes, these antagonistic relationships.
当三头肌弯曲时，二头肌放松，这些是对立的关系。
You see this in the hunger circuit.
你可以在饥饿循环中看到这一点。
I mentioned one earlier.
我之前提到过一个。
Hunger and feeling full, they're like a push-pull.
饥饿和饱腹感，就像推拉一样。
They're like a seesaw.
它们就像跷跷板。
And you see this over and over and over again.
你会一遍又一遍地看到这一点。
It's a very consistent theme of brain function.
这是大脑功能的一个非常一致的主题。
And you said something that I was not aware of.
而且你说了一些我不知道的话。
It makes perfect sense.
这是完全有道理的。
I just wasn't aware that there were data at the level you describe, which is clearly there's an appetitive aspect to sex behavior, heterosexual males wanting to have sex with females, heterosexual females wanting to have sex with males, and so on, every derivation there.
我只是不知道有你所描述的水平的数据，这显然是性行为的一个方面，异性恋男性想要与女性发生性关系，异性恋女性想要与男性发生性关系，等等，每一个派生。
There's a desire in species where there's strong pheromone and odor determination and receptivity stuff gets played out that way.
物种有一种渴望，即具有强烈的信息素、气味决定力和接受能力的东西以这种方式发挥作用。
It looks one way.
看起来是一种方式。
In humans, it may have some of that, but it plays out different way.
在人类身上，可能有一些这样的情况，但表现方式不同。
Receptivity is communicated differently, although odor may be very important in ways we don't quite fully understand.
尽管气味可能以我们不太完全理解的方式非常重要，但接受能力的传达方式有所不同。
But this idea that there's an aversive aspect to it, right?
但这个想法有令人厌恶的一面，对吗？
I think this is important, and it's something that I have not heard discussed before.
我认为这很重要，而且我以前从未听说过讨论过这一点。
And I think that sociologically it has relevance because I think that there are so many different aspects to the notion that our species, humans, come in gay and straight and perhaps bisexual varieties.
我认为从社会学角度来看，它具有相关性，因为我认为我们的物种（人类）有同性恋和异性恋，也许还有双性恋这一观念有很多不同的方面。
We know that's true.
我们知道这是真的。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Clearly.
显然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But there is this not uncommon theme whereby many people, I can only say many people, right, not all, that the concept of mating with same sex is aversive to them.
但有一个并不罕见的主题，很多人，我只能说很多人，对，不是全部，他们厌恶同性交配的概念。
And that has shaped a lot of the landscape around this, and I'm not trying to get political here.
这塑造了很多围绕这个问题的格局，我并不是想在这里涉及政治。
It's just I think it's worth acknowledging that that may be a real phenomenon, too.
只是我认为值得承认这也可能是一个真实的现象。
I'm not trying to justify mistreatment of anybody, but I think that we're never going to get where we want to go as a species societally until we really at least understand the biology and how to work with it.
我并不是想为虐待任何人辩护，但我认为，除非我们至少真正了解生物学以及如何利用它，否则我们永远不会达到我们作为一个物种想要达到的社会目标。
And so the idea that same-sex sex would be aversive as an idea to people, some people are like, "Oh, well, they haven't been educated." Okay.
因此，当人们认为同性性行为是一种令人厌恶的想法时，有些人会说，“哦，好吧，他们没有受过教育。”好的。
Perhaps.
也许。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But there may be a biological basis for that.
但这可能有生物学基础。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
I think the data are still out, but I think to me at least, it's pretty clear that for men at least, there's an asymmetry here.
我认为数据还没有出来，但至少对我来说，很明显，至少对于男性来说，这里存在不对称性。
That experiment where I said, "Who wants to have sex with George Clooney?" Half the population says sure, the other half of the population never.
在那个实验中我说：“谁想和乔治·克鲁尼发生性关系？”一半人说肯定，另一半人则永远不会。
If we reverse the experiment, what percentage want to have sex with Margot Robbie?
如果我们逆转实验，有多少比例的人想与玛格特·罗比发生性关系？
And yeah, half the population, the men would see her as a very desirable sexual partner.
是的，一半的人口，男人会把她视为非常理想的性伴侣。
But The women too, many women would also at least consider the idea of having sex with her.
但女性也是如此，许多女性至少也会考虑与她发生性关系。
And we know there are plenty of women who are straight in one part of their lives, and later they fall in love with a woman, and now they feel like they're gay.
我们知道有很多女性在生活的某一部分是异性恋，后来她们爱上了一位女性，现在她们觉得自己是同性恋。
Right?
正确的？
So females, women, are more plastic in terms of their sexual longings and sexual orientation than men are.
因此，女性在性渴望和性取向方面比男性更具可塑性。
I'll be a little more specific.
我会更具体一点。
I think it's among males where sometimes, for many males, not all, there's an aversive idea, that the idea of having sex with the same-sex partner is aversive.
我认为在男性中，有时，对于许多男性（不是全部）来说，有一种厌恶的想法，即与同性伴侣发生性关系的想法是令人厌恶的。
Now, of course, context matters, right?
当然，背景很重要，对吗？
There's same-sex happening in prisons all the time if the conditions are enough.
如果条件足够的话，监狱里一直都有同性发生。
And I don't know where that aversive component came from.
我不知道那种厌恶的成分从何而来。
It could be that our society, maybe it's all socially inculcated, again, before we're aware of it at all.
可能我们的社会，也许这一切都是社会灌输的，再次，在我们意识到之前。
But I think there's also at least the possibility that there's a biological component to it, and I think that's what Chuck was getting at, in that here's this difference in the brain.
但我认为至少也有可能存在生物成分，我认为这就是查克的意思，因为这就是大脑的差异。
He doesn't know when the difference happened in the preoptic areas, but it seems to correlate with this idea that maybe these gay rams, no, they're not interested in having sex with her.
他不知道这种差异何时发生在视前区，但这似乎与这个想法相关，也许这些同性恋公羊，不，它们对与她发生性关系不感兴趣。
They're only-
他们只是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's aversive to them.
这对他们来说是令人厌恶的。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
It's aversive, yeah.
这是令人厌恶的，是的。
There's no other way to...
没有其他办法可以...
I don't know any other way to explain how they choose never once mount a female.
我不知道有什么其他方法可以解释它们如何选择不再骑乘雌性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I feel like the acknowledgement of an aversive pathway for sexual partner choice is as important as the acknowledgement of biological correlates of homosexuality.
是的，我觉得承认性伴侣选择的厌恶途径与承认同性恋的生物相关性同样重要。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because if this sort of conversation is ever to advance past the sort of like, "Okay, what's okay to say now that we're willing to say now?" Trust in science disappears.
因为如果这种对话超越了“好吧，我们现在愿意说的话，现在可以说些什么呢？”对科学的信任消失了。
I really believe that.
我真的相信这一点。
Now, of course, the problem is that people leverage fragments of what they hear in order to make arguments in favor of whatever stance they have, and that's the complication.
当然，现在的问题是，人们利用他们所听到的片段来提出支持他们所持立场的论据，这就是复杂性。
That's why I like long-form because no matter what gets pulled out, we can go back to the full conversation.
这就是为什么我喜欢长篇，因为无论删掉什么，我们都可以回到完整的对话。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Right.
对。
And this makes you old-fashioned because that's not the world, our world seems to be hurtling towards this-
这让你变得守旧，因为那不是世界，我们的世界似乎正朝着这个方向猛冲——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
...
...
world of snippets.
片段的世界。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People will notice that we have not used the word gender.
人们会注意到我们没有使用性别这个词。
We're talking about biological sex and sex the act, and we're talking about male versus female partner choice, and we're talking about a desire for one or the other, and an aversion to one or the other.
我们谈论的是生物性别和性行为，我们谈论的是男性与女性伴侣的选择，我们谈论的是对其中之一的渴望，以及对其中之一的厌恶。
And I think the aversion piece is an important theme.
我认为厌恶部分是一个重要的主题。
So here's a hypothesis.
所以这是一个假设。
If I can come due a sabbatical.
如果我能在休假期间来的话。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm due for a sabbatical at some point.
我将在某个时候休假。
It may be that in male humans, that there's a pathway or a molecule that serves as an aversive to sex with other men circuit, peptides, neurons, et cetera, that suppresses sexual desire and activates some level of disgust.
在男性中，可能存在一种通路或分子，可以作为厌恶与其他男性发生性关系的回路、肽、神经元等，抑制性欲并激活一定程度的厌恶。
Let me just say it bluntly.
我就直白地说吧。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Might not be the same disgust that they would experience to something more aversive, but okay.
可能不会像他们对更令人厌恶的事物所经历的那样厌恶，但没关系。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that in women, there is no such pathway.
而女性则没有这样的途径。
There's either desire for women or desire for men.
要么对女人有欲望，要么对男人有欲望。
But as you said, statistically, women are more open, on average, to same-sex interactions, and it may be because there's no aversive signal, or the aversive signal has a less robust circuit.
但正如你所说，从统计数据来看，女性平均对同性互动更加开放，这可能是因为没有厌恶信号，或者厌恶信号的回路不太稳健。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
To me, that would explain these differences, these sex differences in who people are willing to have sex with.
对我来说，这可以解释这些差异，人们愿意与谁发生性关系的性别差异。
Your hypothesis fits the data.
你的假设符合数据。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It is true that in the early '90s, for instance, when the first gay characters were on television, like the first "Real World," and I'm really dating myself here, and subsequent characters started to dismantle some of the stereotypes that had been seen in comedies in the '80s and things like that, of the effeminate gay man.
确实，例如，在 90 年代初，当第一个同性恋角色出现在电视上时，比如第一部《现实世界》，我真的在这里约会自己，随后的角色开始消除一些在 80 年代的喜剧等中看到的关于女性化男同性恋的刻板印象。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
What you saw was indeed that heterosexual women, as far as we know, seemed to be more generally accepting of gay men before heterosexual men embraced that as typical.
你所看到的确实是，据我们所知，在异性恋男性将其视为典型之前，异性恋女性似乎更普遍地接受男同性恋。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
That's my impression, too.
我的印象也是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
I think it's pretty clear.
我认为这很清楚。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And then there's a societal shift, and then it sort of becomes like if you, like I spend some time on X, formerly known as Twitter, right?
然后出现了社会转变，然后就有点像如果你像我一样花一些时间在 X（以前称为 Twitter）上，对吧？
And there's some gay political accounts, and you just notice people are comfortable with it.
还有一些同性恋政治报道，你会注意到人们对此感到满意。
Men and women seem to be comfortable with that, right?
男人和女人似乎对此都很满意，对吧？
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Of course, you don't see a lot of attacks now.
当然，现在你看不到很多攻击。
That's very different than what you would have observed, for instance, in the late '80s, early '90s.
这与你在 80 年代末、90 年代初观察到的情况非常不同。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Oh, yes.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Anyway, I think these are important biological phenomenon, this notion of an aversive pathway.
不管怎样，我认为这些都是重要的生物学现象，即厌恶途径的概念。
You could imagine where societal standards or community standards or household standards might amplify or reduce the sort of expression of these things.
你可以想象社会标准或社区标准或家庭标准可能会放大或减少这些事物的表达。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
I'm sure they do.
我确信他们会的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
And I'm sure cultures can amplify or reduce that component.
我确信文化可以放大或减少这个成分。
The question is to what extent?
问题是到什么程度呢？
And I don't think we know.
我认为我们不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One thing that we haven't talked about, and it is a small percentage of people, but it's something that people think about, is this notion of sort of neither here nor there, kind of mixed sex, right?
我们还没有谈论过一件事，虽然只占一小部分人，但人们会思考这一点，这种观念是不是有点不存在，某种混合性别，对吧？
Is there a biological correlate of that?
这有生物学关联吗？
A graduate student my year when you were my professor-
当你当我的教授时，我是一名研究生-
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
Nikki Osypka, Nicola Osypka, who was already famous for training dogs for the-
尼基·奥西普卡 (Nikki Osypka)、尼古拉·奥西普卡 (Nicola Osypka) 因训练狗而闻名——
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yes.
是的。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
"BeastMaster" show.
《兽王》演出。
She's amazing, and had very well-behaved dogs that she would bring everywhere with her.
她很了不起，并且有非常乖的狗，她会带着它们去任何地方。
Studied a species of mole in Tilden Park that could transdifferentiate its testes into ovaries and back again.
在蒂尔登公园研究了一种鼹鼠，它可以将睾丸转分化为卵巢，然后再转分化回来。
And I thought, well, that's alien, weird levels of stuff.
我想，嗯，这真是陌生、奇怪的东西。
But she would occasionally go over to UCSF when babies were born that were sort of, back then, they called them, no one uses this language now, pseudohermaphrodite.
但当婴儿出生时，她偶尔会去加州大学旧金山分校，当时，他们称他们为伪雌雄同体，现在没有人使用这种语言。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Ah, yes.
啊，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What is the deal with exposure to prenatal androgens and neither clearly here nor there a genitalia?
暴露于产前雄激素而生殖器到处都不清楚是怎么回事？
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So in most of those cases, we're talking about congenital adrenal hyperplasia, also known as CAH.
因此，在大多数情况下，我们谈论的是先天性肾上腺增生症，也称为 CAH。
And the congenital means it's present at birth, and the adrenal hyperplasia is referring to the fact that the adrenal glands are slightly larger.
先天性是指出生时就有的，肾上腺增生是指肾上腺稍大一些。
And the reason they're slightly larger, in this case, is because these are individuals where the fetus itself is not able to make some of the adrenal steroids that are important for staying healthy.
在这种情况下，它们之所以略大，是因为这些人的胎儿本身无法制造一些对保持健康很重要的肾上腺类固醇。
And so the brain detecting, "Hey, where are the adrenal steroids that we need here?" drives the pituitary to tell the adrenal gland, "Hey, we need more steroids." The adrenal gland gets the message, it hypertrophies, but the machinery isn't there to make those steroids, and so instead, the adrenal gland makes testosterone and other androgens.
因此大脑会检测到，“嘿，我们需要的肾上腺类固醇在哪里？”驱动垂体告诉肾上腺，“嘿，我们需要更多的类固醇。”肾上腺收到信息后，它会肥大，但它并没有产生这些类固醇的机制，因此，肾上腺会产生睾酮和其他雄激素。
And actually, this can happen in either XX or XY individuals.
事实上，这种情况可能发生在 XX 或 XY 个体身上。
And in XY individuals, people might not notice, but in XX individuals, what that means is that prenatally, her genitalia are being exposed to more testosterone than is typical.
在 XY 个体中，人们可能不会注意到，但在 XX 个体中，这意味着在产前，她的生殖器暴露于比典型情况更多的睾酮。
And so, under the influence of this extra testosterone, the clitoris may grow to be bigger than the typical clitoris.
因此，在这种额外睾酮的影响下，阴蒂可能会长得比典型的阴蒂更大。
In some cases, in extreme cases, the phallus looks like a penis, and the skin around that area that would normally form the labia, again, there might be enough testosterone that it starts to look like a scrotum.
在某些情况下，在极端情况下，阴茎看起来像阴茎，而该区域周围的皮肤通常会形成阴唇，同样，可能有足够的睾酮，使其开始看起来像阴囊。
Except, of course, there are no testes inside there because this is an XX individual.
当然，除了里面没有睾丸，因为这是一个 XX 个体。
So these individuals are identified at birth, typically, especially in XX individuals, and there's an easy treatment, which is, you do the test and you go, "Oh, they can't make adrenal steroids, so we'll give them some." And so for the rest of their lives, they take adrenal steroids orally and get the benefits of that.
因此，这些个体通常在出生时就被识别出来，尤其是在 XX 个体中，并且有一个简单的治疗方法，那就是，您进行测试，然后说，“哦，他们不能制造肾上腺类固醇，所以我们会给他们一些。”因此，在他们的余生中，他们都口服肾上腺类固醇并从中受益。
And that shuts off the hyperactive adrenal gland, so that it shuts off the role of the output of testosterone.
这会关闭过度活跃的肾上腺，从而关闭睾酮输出的作用。
So this is what's known as an intersex phenotype.
这就是所谓的双性表型。
And, yes, you're right, in the older literature, they were sometimes known as pseudohermaphrodite.
是的，你是对的，在古老的文献中，他们有时被称为假雌雄同体。
Huh?
啊？
With the idea being whether a hermaphrodite is an individual that can function and reproduce either as a male or a female.
这个想法是雌雄同体是否是一个可以作为男性或女性发挥作用和繁殖的个体。
And so supposedly they were pseudo because they can't do that, because they have only ovaries.
所以据说它们是假的，因为它们无法做到这一点，因为它们只有卵巢。
Well, you can imagine, first of all, being called hermaphrodite, nobody liked that.
好吧，你可以想象，首先，被称为雌雄同体，没有人喜欢这样。
And if you ask them, "Well, is it better if I put this pseudo at the beginning?
如果你问他们，“好吧，我把这个伪代码放在开头是不是更好？
Does that make you feel like you're being less stigmatized?" No. But a much more accurate description is to say that it's intersex.
这是否让你觉得自己受到的污名减少了？”不。但更准确的描述是说它是阴阳人。
They have a phallus that's somewhere between a clitoris and a penis, and the skin around there is sort of like a scrotum and sort of like labia.
他们的阴茎位于阴蒂和阴茎之间，周围的皮肤有点像阴囊和阴唇。
So, in the old days, once this got recognized, it was standard procedure to tell the parents, "Oh, this is an emergency.
所以，在过去，一旦意识到这一点，告诉父母的标准程序是：“哦，这是紧急情况。
We need to do cosmetic surgery.
我们需要做整容手术。
We need to do surgery to make this little girl look like all the other little girls." Sometimes this surgery could sometimes be successful or not.
我们需要做手术，让这个小女孩看起来像所有其他小女孩一样。”有时这种手术有时会成功，有时会失败。
Indeed, they knew how to make her look like other girls.
事实上，他们知道如何让她看起来像其他女孩一样。
But many of those intersex folks, when they grew up, were pretty angry that someone had done this surgery on them that wasn't needed medically, right?
但许多双性人长大后都非常生气，因为有人对他们做了这种医学上不需要的手术，对吗？
They were already taking care of the problem with the exogenous adrenal steroids.
他们已经用外源性肾上腺类固醇解决了这个问题。
And so who asked you to do surgery on my clitoris?
那么谁让你对我的阴蒂做手术呢？
In some cases, the tip of the clitoris was missing, and so these women grew up and were anorgasmic because they couldn't get the stimulation that they normally would have had.
在某些情况下，阴蒂尖端缺失，因此这些女性长大后会出现性高潮缺乏症，因为她们无法获得正常情况下的刺激。
These days, there's much more, thanks to the activists like Cheryl Chase and others who started getting the pediatrician's attention, "Hey, you need to think about that.
如今，由于像谢丽尔·蔡斯（Cheryl Chase）这样的活动家和其他开始引起儿科医生关注的人，还有更多的事情发生，“嘿，你需要考虑一下。
You're doing elective surgery on an infant who cannot possibly have informed consent." And so these days, they're more of a wait-and-see attitude, which I think is absolutely the...
你正在对一个不可能获得知情同意的婴儿进行选择性手术。”所以现在，他们更多地采取观望态度，我认为这绝对是......
So wait till they're grown up and ask them then if they want to have surgery.
所以等他们长大了再问他们是否想做手术。
And my guess is most will say no. I think that's been the pattern so far.
我猜大多数人都会说不。我认为到目前为止这就是模式。
So these are females who were exposed to more testosterone than other females.
所以这些女性比其他女性接触更多的睾丸激素。
So does that mean that they're going to be attracted to women when they grow up?
那么这是否意味着他们长大后会被女性所吸引？
And the answer is, well, interestingly, if you look at groups of women with CAH, they are more likely to be same-sex attracted, to be lesbians, than the population at large.
有趣的是，如果你观察患有 CAH 的女性群体，就会发现，与总体人口相比，她们更有可能被同性吸引，成为女同性恋。
But most of them are straight.
但他们大多数都是直人。
But what's interesting about that is the older they get, as you keep surveying them, the higher the percentage of them that report having a lesbian orientation.
但有趣的是，随着你不断地对她们进行调查，她们年龄越大，自称有女同性恋倾向的比例就越高。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
So it's possible, first of all, that indicates that, yeah, maybe prenatal testosterone increases the odds of them being lesbians when they grow up.
因此，首先，这可能表明，是的，也许产前睾酮会增加她们长大后成为女同性恋的几率。
And you also wonder, well, how many of them always had that same-sex attraction but were following the pathway society laid out for them, and then as they get older, they say, "Well, no, screw this.
你也会想知道，他们中有多少人总是有同性吸引力，但却遵循社会为他们制定的道路，然后随着年龄的增长，他们说：“好吧，不，管它。
I know who I'm attracted to.
我知道我被谁吸引。
I don't have to fit the heterosexual mold." And so that's entirely consistent with the idea that prenatal testosterone makes you more likely to be attracted to women when you grow up.
我不必适应异性恋模式。”因此，这与产前睾丸激素使你长大后更容易被女性吸引的观点完全一致。
There's another syndrome that I know you've talked about, which is androgen insensitivity syndrome, sometimes abbreviated AIS.
我知道您谈到过另一种综合症，即雄激素不敏感综合症，有时缩写为 AIS。
And it turns out the gene for the androgen receptor that responds to testosterone and other androgens is on the X chromosome.
事实证明，对睾酮和其他雄激素做出反应的雄激素受体基因位于 X 染色体上。
And it may sometimes be that a woman will have an X chromosome that has a copy of the androgen receptor gene that doesn't work.
有时，女性的 X 染色体上的雄激素受体基因副本可能不起作用。
And if she passes that X chromosome on to a daughter, then she's sort of duplicated herself.
如果她将 X 染色体传给女儿，那么她就有点复制了自己。
What's interesting is when that X chromosome is given to a son.
有趣的是，当 X 染色体被赋予给儿子时。
In other words, that egg with an X chromosome that has a dysfunctional copy of the androgen receptor gene, if it gets fertilized by a Y-bearing sperm, now we have an XY individual.
换句话说，带有 X 染色体且雄激素受体基因的功能失调的卵子，如果它与带有 Y 的精子受精，现在我们就有了一个 XY 个体。
And as you've explained clearly in your basics podcasts, we know what'll happen in development.
正如您在基础知识播客中清楚地解释的那样，我们知道开发中会发生什么。
The Y chromosome will mean that the indifferent gonad will develop as testes.
Y染色体意味着中性性腺将发育为睾丸。
The testes will secrete two hormones that are going to guide sexual differentiation in the periphery.
睾丸会分泌两种激素，指导周围的性别分化。
One of them being anti-Mullerian hormone, which is going to suppress the development of the Mullerian ducts, and therefore no oviduct, no uterus will form.
其中之一是抗苗勒管激素，它会抑制苗勒管的发育，因此不会形成输卵管、子宫。
And the testes will also release testosterone, which normally would masculinize the body.
睾丸也会释放睾酮，通常会使身体男性化。
But in this case, because there's no functional androgen receptor to respond to it, the testosterone goes round and round, but the body doesn't respond.
但在这种情况下，由于没有功能性雄激素受体对其做出反应，睾丸激素周而复始，但身体却没有反应。
And so the Wolffian ducts don't develop.
因此沃尔夫导管不会发育。
The periphery looks like a typical female.
外围看起来就是一个典型的女性。
And these individuals, when they're born, often are not identified because the baby's born, the doctor does that very careful analysis by looking between the legs and says, "Congratulations, you have a girl." And they grow up to be girls undetected.
这些人出生时通常不会被识别，因为婴儿出生后，医生会通过查看双腿之间进行非常仔细的分析，然后说：“恭喜，你生了一个女孩。”她们在不被发现的情况下成长为女孩。
And they come to a doctor's attention when puberty happens, and all their classmates are having their period, but she's not.
当青春期到来时，他们会去看医生，他们所有的同学都会来月经，但她没有。
And so she'll eventually go to an OBGYN who will first do an exam, a vaginal exam, and he'll notice that the vagina is relatively short because the inner part of the vagina is normally derived from the Mullerian ducts.
因此，她最终会去看妇产科医生，妇产科医生首先会进行检查，阴道检查，他会注意到阴道相对较短，因为阴道内部通常来自苗勒氏管。
Well, in this woman, in this teenage girl, the Mullerian ducts never develop because of anti-Mullerian hormone.
嗯，在这个女人、这个十几岁的女孩身上，由于抗苗勒管激素的作用，苗勒氏管永远不会发育。
So there'll be no cervix that can be seen in the exam.
所以在检查中不会看到子宫颈。
And if he takes blood plasma levels, he'll see that this very feminine-looking teenage girl has very high levels of testosterone.
如果他测量血浆水平，他会发现这个看起来非常女性化的十几岁女孩的睾丸激素水平非常高。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And presumably testes.
大概还有睾丸。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
And if he does a karyotype, he'll see that she has an XY karyotype.
如果他进行核型分析，他会发现她有 XY 核型。
And yes, there are testes in there, typically in the abdomen, and they're releasing lots of testosterone because there's no negative feedback to tell the brain, "Hey, you can stop sending signals to the testes now." In these cases, you can ask, well, what's the sexual orientation of these women?
是的，那里有睾丸，通常在腹部，它们释放大量睾酮，因为没有负反馈告诉大脑，“嘿，你现在可以停止向睾丸发送信号了。”在这些情况下，你可以问，这些女性的性取向是什么？
And the vast majority of them grow up to be straight.
他们中的绝大多数长大后都是异性恋。
They are attracted to men, and they're often very interested in having a family.
她们被男人所吸引，而且往往对组建家庭非常感兴趣。
And of course, they can't carry children themselves, but they can adopt and things like that.
当然，他们自己不能带孩子，但他们可以收养孩子之类的。
And so they're very much feminine, very straight women.
所以她们是非常女性化、非常直率的女性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But they're XY.
但他们是XY。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
But they're XYs.
但他们是XY。
So the question is, and unfortunately, in terms of understanding whether prenatal testosterone alters our sexual orientation, these individuals aren't useful to us because we don't know if they're straight women because their brains could never respond to the prenatal testosterone, or are they straight women because they were raised as girls and socialized to be attracted to men.
不幸的是，问题是，就了解产前睾酮是否会改变我们的性取向而言，这些人对我们没有用处，因为我们不知道她们是否是异性恋女性，因为她们的大脑永远无法对产前睾酮做出反应，或者她们是异性恋女性，因为她们是作为女孩长大的，并且社会化后会被男性吸引。
It's a fascinating syndrome, and there's at least one woman with AIS who's self-identified who's a successful model.
这是一种令人着迷的综合症，至少有一位患有 AIS 的女性自认为是一名成功的模特。
And there's another woman who wrote a memoir that's quite good.
还有一位女士写了一本相当不错的回忆录。
And what's interesting about it, when there's no testosterone response, they have very feminine faces, very feminine bodies.
有趣的是，当没有睾丸激素反应时，他们有非常女性化的面孔，非常女性化的身体。
And so they're frankly quite attractive as women.
所以坦率地说，她们作为女性非常有吸引力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Function.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 Function。
Function provides over 160 advanced lab tests to give you a clear snapshot of your bodily health.
功能提供超过 160 项高级实验室测试，让您清晰了解自己的身体健康状况。
This snapshot gives insights into your heart health, hormone health, autoimmune function, nutrient levels, and much more.
此快照可深入了解您的心脏健康、激素健康、自身免疫功能、营养水平等。
They've also recently added access to advanced MRI and CT scans.
他们最近还增加了先进的 MRI 和 CT 扫描的访问权限。
Function not only provides testing of over 160 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, it also analyzes these results and provides recommendations for improving your health from top doctors.
Function 不仅提供对您身心健康至关重要的 160 多种生物标记物的测试，还分析这些结果并提供顶级医生改善您健康的建议。
For example, in a recent test with Function, I learned that some of my blood lipids were slightly out of range.
例如，在最近的一次 Function 测试中，我发现我的一些血脂稍微超出了范围。
As a result, I decided to start supplementing with nattokinase, which can naturally help reduce LDL cholesterol, and it did.
因此，我决定开始补充纳豆激酶，它自然可以帮助降低低密度脂蛋白胆固醇，而且确实如此。
In a follow-up test, I could confirm that this strategy worked.
在后续测试中，我可以确认这个策略是有效的。
My blood lipids are now back where I want them, in range.
我的血脂现在回到了我想要的范围内。
Comprehensive lab testing of the sort that Function offers is so important for health.
Function 提供的全面实验室测试对于健康非常重要。
And while I've been doing it for years, it's always been overly complicated and expensive.
虽然我已经这样做了很多年，但它总是过于复杂和昂贵。
But now with Function, it's extremely easy and affordable.
但现在有了 Function，它变得非常简单且经济实惠。
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要了解更多信息，请访问 functionhealth.com/huberman 并使用代码 Huberman 获得 50 美元的会员积分。
I'm realizing I'm drawing a model over here whereby we've got, again, accelerators and brakes.
我意识到我正在这里画一个模型，其中我们再次有加速器和制动器。
And I think we've got different axes.
我认为我们有不同的轴。
I'm not trying to split hairs here, but I think for people who want to understand how hormones, sex, and behavior, sexual orientation fit together, it's very useful to think about, okay, you've got chromosomes that drive our typical notions of male versus female, and you're providing some important caveats where the body appears one way, but it's an XY.
我并不是想在这里吹毛求疵，但我认为对于那些想要了解荷尔蒙、性别、行为、性取向如何结合在一起的人来说，思考一下是非常有用的，好吧，你有染色体驱动我们对男性与女性的典型观念，并且你提供了一些重要的警告，其中身体以一种方式出现，但它是 XY。
And there's almost every derivation of this has been-
几乎所有的推导都是——
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
observed, although not at a very high frequency.
观察到，尽管频率不是很高。
And then you've got choice of same versus other, in terms of orientation, and a key role of prenatal testosterone there.
然后你就可以在方向和产前睾酮的关键作用方面做出相同或不同的选择。
Maybe some cultural or other types of plasticity that might be biased more toward the female side.
也许某些文化或其他类型的可塑性可能更偏向女性。
It seems that way, based on what you're saying.
根据你所说的情况，似乎是这样。
I'm willing to say it if you're not.
如果你不愿意的话我愿意说。
It does seem that way.
看起来确实是这样。
There's an aversive signal that certainly in male sheep and other species, and that matches my observations as a 50-year-old male who grew up in Northern California.
雄性绵羊和其他物种中肯定存在一种厌恶信号，这与我作为一名在北加州长大的 50 岁雄性的观察结果相符。
And, I mean, again-
而且，我的意思是，再说一遍——
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
In this era
在这个时代
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and the joke being that I can only speak from my own reference point on this.
开玩笑的是，我只能从我自己的参考点来谈论这一点。
And then we have a bunch of different things about partner preference and that at some point, it almost seems like it departs from, well, it certainly departs from our sort of linear like, okay, girls like boys, boys like girls, testosterone makes boys, estrogen makes girls.
然后我们对伴侣偏好有很多不同的看法，在某些时候，它似乎背离了，嗯，它肯定背离了我们的线性观念，比如，好吧，女孩喜欢男孩，男孩喜欢女孩，睾丸激素使男孩，雌激素使女孩。
We're nowhere near there.
我们离那儿还很远。
We've left that station a long time ago.
我们很久以前就离开那个车站了。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And at the same time, we arrive at a place where I think we need better languaging to separate these axes because it is very confusing for people.
与此同时，我认为我们需要更好的语言来区分这些轴，因为这对人们来说非常令人困惑。
And so that would be very useful if the fields of neuroscience and psychology would start to embrace the real world realities of-- Because I actually think the lack of specificity of talking about orientation versus biological sex and these other aspects have led-- I think that's the source of a lot of conflict, actually.
因此，如果神经科学和心理学领域开始接受现实世界的现实，这将非常有用——因为我实际上认为，谈论性取向与生物性别以及其他方面缺乏特异性，导致——我认为这实际上是很多冲突的根源。
Anyway, that's an editorial for another time.
不管怎样，那是另一次的社论了。
In terms of biological impact on sexual orientation, one of the more striking findings that you've been talking about for a number of years that just kind of shocks at first, but then you get a lot of nods from people, is this idea that the larger the number of older brothers that a male has, the higher the probability that he is gay.
就性取向的生物学影响而言，你多年来一直在谈论的一个更引人注目的发现之一，一开始有点令人震惊，但后来你得到了人们的很多点头，那就是这个想法，即男性拥有的哥哥数量越多，他是同性恋的可能性就越高。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
It's been seen over and over.
它已经被看到了一遍又一遍。
I mean, it's really one of the rock-solid findings in human sexuality that was first noticed by Ray Blanchard at Toronto and has been seen in many populations all over the world.
我的意思是，这确实是人类性行为中坚如磐石的发现之一，最早由多伦多的雷·布兰查德 (Ray Blanchard) 注意到，并在世界各地的许多人群中得到了证实。
So the way to emphasize the difference is if a baby boy is born today, if he has no older brothers, his odds of being gay when he grows up is about 2%, right?
所以强调差异的方法是，如果今天出生一个男婴，如果他没有哥哥，他长大后成为同性恋的几率约为 2%，对吗？
Pretty low.
相当低。
But if he had one older brother, his odds go up by a third.
但如果他有一个哥哥，他的几率就会增加三分之一。
Okay, 2.6.
好的，2.6。
And if he has two older brothers, they go up a third again.
如果他有两个哥哥，他们会再上升第三个。
Right now we're at 3 point-- It turns out you got to have like a dozen older brothers just to have a 50/50 chance from the same mother.
现在我们处于 3 点——事实证明，你必须有十几个哥哥才能有 50/50 的机会来自同一个母亲。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
So we know that it's not in what they call now blended family or so this is-
所以我们知道这不是他们现在所谓的混合家庭，所以这是-
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
We'll get to those in a moment.
我们稍后会讨论这些内容。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
But this is what you see.
但这就是你所看到的。
So you get a big population of men.
所以你会得到大量的男性。
Here's a big population that have one older brother.
这里人口众多，但只有一个哥哥。
How many are gay?
有多少人是同性恋？
And it's a small number.
而且这个数字很小。
And the number that have two, still a small number, but more.
而有两个的数量，仍然很少，但是更多。
And how do you explain that?
你如何解释这一点？
We saw it when we did those surveys.
我们在做这些调查时看到了这一点。
I don't know if you remember, we also asked people how many older brothers and sisters they had and how many younger brothers and sisters they had.
不知道大家还记不记得，我们还问过人们有多少个哥哥姐姐，有多少个弟弟妹妹。
So it turns out in the general population, there are about 105 boys born for every 100 girls, right?
那么，在总人口中，大约每 100 个女孩出生 105 个男孩，对吗？
That's also very consistent.
这也是非常一致的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
105 boys born for every 100 girls.
每 100 个女孩出生 105 个男孩。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
That's right.
没错。
Or put another way, if you want, I can guess the sex of any baby that's going to be born, and I can be right more than 50% of the time because I'm always going to guess boy, right?
或者换句话说，如果你愿意，我可以猜出任何即将出生的婴儿的性别，而且我可以在超过 50% 的时间里猜对，因为我总是会猜男孩，对吗？
Because 51% of the time it'll be a boy.
因为 51% 的情况下是男孩。
For straight men, you total up all the older brothers they have and all the older sisters, and there's a ratio of about 105 older brothers to 100 older sisters.
对于直男来说，你把他们所有的哥哥和所有的姐姐加起来，大约有105个哥哥和100个姐姐的比例。
For the gay men, it turned out there were 140 older brothers for every 100 sisters.
对于男同性恋者来说，每 100 个姐妹就有 140 个哥哥。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Help frame that statistic for people.
帮助人们制定统计数据。
So you gave us the one older brother, what the probability was.
那么你给了我们一位哥哥，概率是多少。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a third increase.
这是第三次增加。
You go from 2% to 2.6.
你从 2% 上升到 2.6。
Is it a linear increase as you increase the number of older brothers?
是随着哥哥数量的增加而线性增加吗？
Do you just start-
你刚开始吗-
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
It's, I mean-
我的意思是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
increasing the probability with every older brother, or is it sort of a step function?
增加每个哥哥的概率，或者它是一种阶跃函数？
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
It is, in fact, a linear progression, so at that rate.
事实上，这是一个线性进展，所以以这个速度。
So Ray's worked that out.
所以雷已经解决了这个问题。
Of course, it's hard to find men that have had more than four or five older brothers, especially these days.
当然，很难找到有超过四五个哥哥的男人，尤其是现在。
But it turns out in the Kinsey surveys, Ray went to the Kinsey surveys way back then.
但事实证明，在金赛调查中，雷很早就参加了金赛调查。
Those interviews were incredibly thorough, and so they have a record of how many siblings of each sex every one of those men had.
这些采访非常彻底，因此他们记录了每个男性有多少个兄弟姐妹。
And you can see it there, too.
你也可以在那里看到它。
And it's another one of these cases where I tell you this, and you tell me, "Well, I know somebody who has two older brothers, and they're gay.
这是另一个案例，我告诉你这个，你告诉我，“嗯，我认识一个人，他有两个哥哥，他们是同性恋。
Is that why?"
是因为这个吗？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or I know somebody with three older brothers, and they're not gay.
或者我认识一个有三个哥哥的人，他们不是同性恋。
This, I'm just-
这个，我只是——
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
So you tell me, "Oh, I know someone who has two older brothers, and he's gay.
所以你告诉我，“哦，我认识一个人，他有两个哥哥，而且他是同性恋。
Is that why he's gay?" And I really can't tell you.
这就是他是同性恋的原因吗？”我真的不能告诉你。
There's no way to know because, in fact, most men with two older brothers are straight Right.
没有办法知道，因为事实上，大多数有两个哥哥的男人都是右派。
Again, it's one of these instances where it gives you no predictive power about one individual, why they are gay.
再说一遍，这是其中之一，它无法让你对一个人有预测能力，为什么他们是同性恋。
Ray Blanchard has done the statistics, and their estimate is of all the population of gay men, about one in seven are gay because their mother carried brothers before them.
雷·布兰查德做了统计，他们估计在所有男同性恋人口中，大约七分之一是同性恋，因为他们的母亲在他们之前生过兄弟。
And what I mean is those same men with the same genotype, same genes, if their mom hadn't had older brothers before them, they'd be straight today.
我的意思是，那些具有相同基因型、相同基因的男人，如果他们的妈妈在他们之前没有哥哥，他们今天就会是异性恋。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Statistically speaking.
从统计上来说。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Statistically.
据统计。
But you show me a picture of the Gay Men's Chorus, and I can't point out which man is gay because of that, because there are other factors that can influence whether someone grows up to be gay.
但是你给我看了一张男同性恋合唱团的照片，我不能因此指出哪个男人是同性恋，因为还有其他因素可以影响一个人长大后是否是同性恋。
So again, it's one of these things where the statistical comparison is of great theoretical importance, even though it offers no predictive value for a given individual.
再说一遍，统计比较在理论上具有重要意义，尽管它对特定个体没有提供预测价值。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So we know that males engage in much more rough-and-tumble play when they're younger, just like rats, just like monkeys.
所以我们知道，雄性在年轻时会进行更多的打闹游戏，就像老鼠、猴子一样。
This is a fact.
这是事实。
It's related to testosterone exposure.
这与睾酮暴露有关。
If a boy has older brothers, there's a decent chance he's engaging in more of that than if he has a sister.
如果一个男孩有哥哥，那么他很有可能会比有姐姐时参与更多的事情。
And given what you said earlier, that in humans, the brain continues to develop at a massively accelerated rate, even after birth, up to age six.
鉴于您之前所说，人类的大脑即使在出生后直至六岁，仍会继续以大幅加速的速度发育。
Testosterone has an influence.
睾酮有影响。
Behavior impacts testosterone.
行为会影响睾丸激素。
Okay, they're not in puberty yet, but you could imagine this has an impact.
好吧，他们还没有进入青春期，但你可以想象这会产生影响。
So the experiment becomes for boys that had two or more older brothers but were not raised with those older brothers, does the effect hold of them having a statistically greater probability of being gay?
因此，该实验适用于有两个或更多哥哥但不是与这些哥哥一起长大的男孩，这种效应是否表明他们在统计上有更大的同性恋概率？
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
It's a beautiful hypothesis, and you first hear about this, and that's the first thing you think.
这是一个美丽的假设，你第一次听到这个，你首先想到的就是这个。
Well, maybe the younger brother got bullied or-
好吧，也许弟弟被欺负了或者——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or beat up his older brothers
或者殴打他的哥哥
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
...
...
or maybe the older brother somehow inhibited the younger brother from developing in a full masculine fashion.
或者也许哥哥以某种方式阻止了弟弟以完全男性化的方式发展。
But it turns out Tony Bogaert started looking at these data, and he started asking, "Well, what about stepbrothers?
但事实证明托尼·博加尔特开始查看这些数据，他开始问：“那么，继兄弟呢？
Do older stepbrothers make any difference in the odds of sexual orientation?" And the answer was a clear no.
年长的继兄弟对性取向的几率有什么影响吗？”答案显然是否定的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
On the other hand, older brothers who came from the same mother but were raised apart had just as much of an effect as those that were raised with.
另一方面，来自同一母亲但分开抚养的哥哥所产生的影响与那些一起长大的哥哥的影响一样大。
So it does not seem to be socially mediated.
所以它似乎不是社交媒体。
In fact, Ray Blanchard and Tony Bogaert have come up with a very plausible hypothesis called the maternal immunization hypothesis, and it runs something like this, that the first time a mother carries a son, that son is carrying some genes that her immune system has never seen before.
事实上，雷·布兰查德（Ray Blanchard）和托尼·博加尔特（Tony Bogaert）提出了一个非常合理的假设，称为母体免疫假说，它的原理是这样的，当母亲第一次怀上儿子时，那个儿子就携带了一些她的免疫系统以前从未见过的基因。
All the genes on the Y chromosome, there's no way her immune system could have seen it.
Y染色体上的所有基因，她的免疫系统不可能发现它。
And as long as that first son is in utero, her immune system never sees it.
只要第一个儿子还在子宫里，她的免疫系统就永远不会发现它。
But inevitably at birth, whether it's cesarean section or vaginal delivery, there's always blood, and there's always mixing of blood.
但出生时不可避免的，无论是剖腹产还是阴道分娩，总会有血，而且总会有血液的混合。
And so at that point, the mother's immune system is going to see these male-specific antigens that it's never seen before.
因此，到那时，母亲的免疫系统将看到这些以前从未见过的男性特异性抗原。
Of course, it's going to regard it as an invader, and it's going to start making antibodies to it.
当然，它会把它视为入侵者，并开始针对它产生抗体。
So their hypothesis is that each time a woman delivers another son, her immune system is going to generate more of these antibodies.
因此，他们的假设是，每当女性再生育一个儿子时，她的免疫系统就会产生更多的此类抗体。
And if she has a subsequent son, antibodies cross the placenta just fine.
如果她随后生了一个儿子，抗体就能很好地穿过胎盘。
And so in fact, the placenta very actively sends antibodies across to protect the young.
事实上，胎盘非常积极地发送抗体来保护幼崽。
And so that would mean that her antibodies are going into this third son and somehow altering the development of their brain.
因此，这意味着她的抗体将进入第三个儿子体内，并以某种方式改变他们大脑的发育。
And the strong evidence they found in favor of this is that in women who have sons where there's this pattern that looks like that might have happened, it turns out they have higher levels than control mothers of antibodies to a male-specific antigen, quite specifically, an antigen to a protein called neuroligin 4Y.
他们发现的支持这一观点的有力证据是，在有儿子的女性中，这种模式看起来可能已经发生了，结果证明，她们的男性特异性抗原抗体水平高于对照母亲，特别是一种名为神经肽 4Y 的蛋白质的抗原。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hm.
嗯。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
So neuroligin-
所以神经肽-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Cell adhesion molecule.
细胞粘附分子。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
You know that neuroligins are important for synapse formation.
您知道神经连接蛋白对于突触形成很重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hm.
嗯。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
And it turns out there's several copies, not unusual in humans.
事实证明，存在多个副本，这在人类中并不罕见。
And this one, neuroligin 4, there's one on the X chromosome and one on the Y chromosome, and they're slightly different.
而这个，neuroligin 4，有一个在 X 染色体上，一个在 Y 染色体上，它们略有不同。
And so the fact that these mothers are making antibodies to this male-specific antigen, and that in their particular family, it looks like subsequent sons were more likely to be gay, you can imagine that's what's going on, that her immune system has perturbed the development of that subsequent son enough that when they grow up, they're more likely to be gay.
事实上，这些母亲正在产生针对这种男性特异性抗原的抗体，并且在他们特定的家庭中，看起来后续的儿子更有可能是同性恋，你可以想象这就是正在发生的事情，她的免疫系统已经扰乱了后续儿子的发育，以至于当他们长大后，他们更有可能是同性恋。
Whatever the mechanism is, it has to be that it's the mother's body that is remembering how many sons she's carried before them, right?
不管机制是什么，一定是母亲的身体记住了她之前生过多少个儿子，对吗？
And it's got to be the mother's body that somehow is doing something to perturb the development of her subsequent sons to make them more likely to be gay.
母亲的身体一定会以某种方式扰乱她后续儿子的发育，使他们更有可能成为同性恋。
It's a fascinating idea, and it also gets at that same theme that I mentioned before.
这是一个令人着迷的想法，它也符合我之前提到的同一主题。
There are lots of different developmental pathways to end up being gay or to end up being straight, and there isn't going to be one cause of anything in human behavior, and certainly not of sexual orientation.
最终成为同性恋或成为异性恋的发展途径有很多不同，而且人类行为中的任何事情都不会只有一个原因，当然也不会是性取向。
But I think the evidence is looking pretty strong that for women at least, prenatal testosterone does have a say, and we know that in men, the mother's body has a say in whether they're going to be gay or straight when they grow up.
但我认为证据看起来相当有力，至少对于女性来说，产前睾酮确实有发言权，而且我们知道，对于男性来说，母亲的身体对他们长大后是同性恋还是异性恋有发言权。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The result is so cool because once again, it spits in the face of these reflexive assumptions For instance, you could imagine, and I probably grew up hearing, "Oh, he was raised around a lot of girls," or something.
结果太酷了，因为它再次面对这些反射性假设。例如，你可以想象，我可能从小就听过“哦，他是在很多女孩身边长大的”之类的。
Had a lot of sisters, or he had an older sister or three.
他有很多姐妹，或者说他有一三个姐姐。
Or dad left the house.
或者爸爸离开了家。
This didn't happen so much in the '70s and '80s, but it was more frequent in the '90s.
这种情况在20世纪70年代和80年代并不常见，但在90年代更为频繁。
Back then it was called broken homes.
那时它被称为破碎的家园。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now people would be like, "What are you talking about?" Everyone knows somebody divorced.
现在人们会说，“你在说什么？”大家都知道有人离婚了。
But back then it was more rare, and there was this idea, lack of male influence.
但当时这种情况比较少见，而且有这样的想法，缺乏男性影响力。
And of course, there are important, I believe, gender-specific influences on kids in terms of upbringing, but in terms of the stereotype, that seems to have largely dissipated.
当然，我认为，在成长过程中，性别对孩子的影响也很重要，但就刻板印象而言，这种影响似乎已经基本消失。
But having an older sister or three would make a son more likely be gay.
但有一三个姐姐会让儿子更有可能是同性恋。
It's exactly the opposite when you look at the biology.
从生物学角度来看，情况恰恰相反。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Ray's looked at that very carefully, and so older sisters don't matter, and neither do younger sisters.
雷看得很仔细，所以姐姐不重要，妹妹也不重要。
And here's the other thing, that younger brothers don't matter.
还有一件事，弟弟并不重要。
So, no matter how many younger brothers you have, that doesn't change your odds of being gay when you grow up.
所以，无论你有多少弟弟，这都不会改变你长大后成为同性恋的几率。
So, that's why I say it's got to be the mother's body that is remembering, and it doesn't seem to be socially mediated.
所以，这就是为什么我说一定是母亲的身体在记忆，而且它似乎不是通过社交介导的。
It is independent of that.
它与此无关。
It is nature having its say.
大自然有它的发言权。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Males with congenital adrenal hyperplasia.
患有先天性肾上腺增生症的男性。
We didn't talk about that.
我们没有谈论这个。
And perhaps more important is to talk about males and females with congenital adrenal hyperplasia, but are heterozygous.
也许更重要的是谈论患有先天性肾上腺增生症的男性和女性，但都是杂合子。
So they have one functional copy, one non-functional copy.
所以他们有一份功能副本，一份非功能副本。
And the reason I raise this-
我提出这个问题的原因是——
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is that it's very common.
这是很常见的。
It's one in 12.
这是十二分之一。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Huh?
啊？
I didn't know that.
我不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One in 12, which seems like an outrageously high number, but it's one of the things that is immediately screened for, maybe not as much as some other blood-related diseases and things like that.
十二分之一，这个数字似乎高得离谱，但它是立即筛查的疾病之一，可能不像其他一些与血液相关的疾病和类似疾病那么多。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
No, I didn't know that.
不，我不知道。
But you have to remember, actually, there are several different genetic mutations along the pathway of making adrenal steroids that can go wrong.
但你必须记住，实际上，在制造肾上腺类固醇的过程中，有几种不同的基因突变可能会出错。
And so there are several steps that have to be there for them to make adrenal steroids.
因此，他们必须经过几个步骤才能制造肾上腺类固醇。
So number one, there's more than one site where the mutations would be carried, and of course, the heterozygotes may have no symptoms whatsoever, and so they may reproduce just fine.
第一，携带突变的位点不止一个，当然，杂合子可能没有任何症状，因此它们可能会很好地繁殖。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We know this.
我们知道这一点。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sorry, I should be clear, because people are probably thinking, "Wow, one in 12." Both males and females that carry one mutant copy of CAH are capable of healthy reproduction.
抱歉，我应该说清楚，因为人们可能会想，“哇，十二分之一。”携带一种 CAH 突变拷贝的雄性和雌性都能够健康繁殖。
There are some hypomorphic phenotypes.
有一些亚效型表型。
Some people make more androgen.
有些人会产生更多的雄激素。
Some people have a sustained stress response.
有些人有持续的压力反应。
It's not very well-studied, but it is very common-
虽然还没有得到很好的研究，但它很常见——
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which I found interesting.
我觉得很有趣。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Another reason why the carriers are so common is because typically there's no phenotype, or if there is, it's subtle and so it doesn't come to the attention of any physicians.
携带者如此常见的另一个原因是因为通常没有表型，或者即使有，也很微妙，因此不会引起任何医生的注意。
It's only when two defective copies of the gene come together in one offspring that there's no adrenal steroid production at all, and then things happen enough to get the attention of the doctors.
只有当该基因的两个有缺陷的拷贝在一个后代中结合在一起时，肾上腺类固醇才根本不会产生，然后发生的事情足以引起医生的注意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I've looked into this, and it does seem like one mutant copy of CAH is you find it just statistically more frequent in professions or sports where there's a requirement for long-duration stress tolerance, which makes sense.
是的，我对此进行了研究，似乎 CAH 的一个变异版本是，从统计数据来看，它在需要长期承受压力的职业或运动中更为常见，这是有道理的。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So some of these genes could confer an advantage.
因此，其中一些基因可能会带来优势。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some could confer a disadvantage-
有些可能会带来劣势——
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in different settings.
在不同的设置中。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
And that there might be a heterozygote advantage.
并且可能存在杂合子优势。
The classic example, sickle cell anemia, where being a heterozygote for that gene confers an advantage.
典型的例子是镰状细胞性贫血，该基因的杂合子具有优势。
If there's malaria in the area, you'll be less likely to succumb.
如果该地区有疟疾，你就不太可能死亡。
Things go wrong when two copies come together in one individual, and that's when the blood cells are especially affected.
当两个拷贝在一个人体内聚集时，就会出现问题，此时血细胞尤其会受到影响。
And things go wrong when an offspring gets two such copies, which is relatively rare, but it does happen, and in that case, then the offspring are very sick.
当一个后代得到两个这样的副本时，就会出现问题，这种情况相对罕见，但确实会发生，在这种情况下，后代就会病得很重。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Did you ever do the head transplantation experiment on the finches?
你做过雀类头部移植实验吗？
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
That's amazing what sort of a memory you have.
你的记忆力真是令人惊奇。
No, I never did.
不，我从来没有这样做过。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You want to explain what this was?
你想解释一下这是什么吗？
Because I'm not going to do it correctly.
因为我不会正确地做这件事。
But I remember you wanted to do an experiment-
但我记得你想做一个实验-
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
where you were going to transplant finch heads.
你要移植雀头的地方。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Well, peop-
嗯，人们——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I thought it was the coolest experiment ever because it was going to be done as embryos, so no, it was not taking heads off of birds.
我认为这是有史以来最酷的实验，因为它将以胚胎的形式进行，所以不，它不会把鸟的头取下来。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was an embryo experiment, but I think we should talk about the backdrop of this.
这是一个胚胎实验，但我认为我们应该谈谈这个的背景。
Male birds of a certain species sing.
某种雄性鸟类会唱歌。
Female birds don't.
雌鸟则不然。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you wanted to embryonically put a female head on a male body, a male finch head on a female body, and you wanted to swap head bodies of these embryos.
所以你想在胚胎中将雌性头放在雄性身体上，将雄性雀头放在雌性身体上，并且你想交换这些胚胎的头体。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Okay.
好的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Tell us the experiment, Mark.
告诉我们这个实验，马克。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
I'm certainly looking like the mad scientist.
我看起来确实像那个疯狂的科学家。
But it's-
但它是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, let me tell you, wait, hold on.
好吧，让我告诉你，等等，坚持住。
Crazier things have been done-
更疯狂的事情已经做过了——
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Absolutely
绝对
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with US tax dollars, like brainbow mice, mice that glow 215 different fluorescent colors to identify different cell types.
与美国纳税人一样，脑弓小鼠可以发出 215 种不同的荧光颜色来识别不同的细胞类型。
I could go on and on and on.
我可以继续说下去。
I think this experiment has a purpose to get at a principle that can't be understood any other way.
我认为这个实验的目的是为了得到一个无法用其他方式理解的原理。
So it's not just tinkering for the sake of tinkering.
因此，这不仅仅是为了修补而修补。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
In fact, people do those sorts of transplants in birds.
事实上，人们在鸟类身上进行了此类移植。
So a very famous neuroscientist from France, Nicole Le Douarin, did these experiments where she would open up chick embryos and quail embryos, and she could scoop out part of the nervous system from one and implant it in the other, and she'd know when she had done it right, though she had a way of telling the cells apart under a microscope.
因此，来自法国的一位非常著名的神经科学家 Nicole Le Douarin 做了这些实验，她打开了鸡胚胎和鹌鹑胚胎，她可以从其中一个胚胎中取出部分神经系统并将其植入另一个胚胎中，她会知道自己何时做对了，尽管她有办法在显微镜下区分细胞。
Plus, when they grew up, here you'd have this White Leghorn chicken with a streak of brown feathers right where she-
另外，当它们长大后，你会看到这只白色来亨鸡，上面有一条棕色羽毛，就在她——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Was it called a Quicken?
它被称为“Quicken”吗？
Sorry.
对不起。
Couldn't help myself.
我无法自拔。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Here you'd have this White Leghorn chicken with a streak of brown feathers in the middle that were derived from the quail And so it is possible to do those sorts of swaps, and of course, this is what's so great about working with birds, is their embryos are easy to get to for the first 21 days or so.
在这里，你会得到这只白色来亨鸡，中间有一条棕色羽毛，这些羽毛是来自鹌鹑的，所以可以进行这些类型的交换，当然，这就是与鸟类合作的伟大之处，因为它们的胚胎在前 21 天左右很容易获得。
So people have done those sorts of experiments.
所以人们做了这样的实验。
There was a question about sexual differentiation of the brain in birds.
有一个关于鸟类大脑性别分化的问题。
And I'll tell you why it turned out I didn't need to do that experiment, and it wouldn't have shown what we wanted.
我会告诉你为什么我不需要做那个实验，而且它也不会显示我们想要的结果。
Sometimes you'll see in the news, someone will find a gynandromorph in birds.
有时你会在新闻中看到，有人会在鸟类中发现雌雄同体。
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Gynandromorph.
雌雄同体。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Gynandromorph.
雌雄同体。
So half female, gyn, and half male, andro.
所以一半女性，gyn，一半男性，andro。
And when it happens in cardinals, for example, it's like the animal's been split down the middle.
例如，当这种情况发生在红雀身上时，就像动物被从中间劈开一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No.
不。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yes.
是的。
Where the one side is the bright red of a male with a crest, et cetera, and the other side isn't.
其中一侧是带有波峰等的雄性的鲜红色，而另一侧则不是。
So these occur occasionally.
所以这些情况偶尔会发生。
And our best understanding of what happened there, first of all, the sex chromosome's a little different in birds than mammals.
我们对那里发生的事情的最好理解是，首先，鸟类的性染色体与哺乳动物的性染色体有些不同。
I'm going to gloss over that.
我要掩盖这一点。
But our best understanding of what happened there is this is a case where two embryos, one that was carrying male sex chromosomes and the other female sex chromosomes, came together at an early stage, and so what we have is a mosaic animal where one side is genetically male and the other side is genetically female.
但我们对那里发生的事情的最佳理解是，两个胚胎（一个携带男性性染色体，另一侧携带女性性染色体）在早期结合在一起，因此我们拥有的是一种镶嵌动物，其中一侧在遗传上是男性，另一侧在遗传上是女性。
Now, in a mammal, if that happened, the testis on the male side would masculinize everything by using hormones.
现在，在哺乳动物中，如果发生这种情况，雄性一侧的睾丸会通过使用激素使一切男性化。
The clue that something else is going on in birds is that in this case, there's not been this blending, and when Art Arnold and others looked at the brains of gynandromorphs, sure enough, the sex differences where this region, HVC, for example, tends to be larger in males than in females.
鸟类身上发生的其他事情的线索是，在这种情况下，并没有这种混合，当阿特·阿诺德和其他人观察雌雄同体的大脑时，果然，这个区域（例如 HVC）的性别差异在雄性中往往比雌性更大。
In these animals, it was larger on one side of the body than on the other.
在这些动物中，身体的一侧比另一侧更大。
So they were indeed split.
所以他们确实分裂了。
Well, this suggested that gonadal hormones were not in charge of sexual differentiation.
嗯，这表明性腺激素不负责性别分化。
And so what I wanted to do, and never figured out quite how to do, was to take a male brain and put it on a female body and vice versa, to ask what sexual differentiation will be like.
所以我想做的，但一直不知道该怎么做，就是把男性的大脑放在女性的身体上，反之亦然，以询问性别分化会是什么样子。
Will the whole body listen to the brain and become male, or will the gonads?
是整个身体听从大脑的指挥而变成男性，还是性腺呢？
It was a crazy experiment where if I could dissociate what the sex of the gonad was from what the sex of the brain was and what would happen.
这是一个疯狂的实验，如果我能将性腺的性别与大脑的性别区分开来，将会发生什么。
But it turned out I didn't have the good hands that you would do, for example.
但事实证明我没有你那样的好手，例如。
I never learned how to do that experiment.
我从来没有学会如何做那个实验。
But one resolution of it is, one of the things we now know is going on in birds is that in some cases, it's the brain itself that's making the hormone and is masculinizing itself.
但其中一个解决方案是，我们现在知道鸟类身上发生的事情之一是，在某些情况下，是大脑本身产生激素并使自身男性化。
So in birds, there's pretty good evidence that brain sexual differentiation happens because the genetic sex of the brain determines how much hormone, including testosterone and estrogen, is getting made locally, and that that then is driving sexual differentiation, and that's why you can have one side of the brain is male and the other side is female.
因此，在鸟类中，有充分的证据表明，大脑性别分化的发生是因为大脑的遗传性别决定了本地产生的激素（包括睾酮和雌激素）的数量，从而推动了性别分化，这就是为什么大脑的一侧是雄性，另一侧是雌性的原因。
And that just doesn't happen in mammals.
而这种情况不会发生在哺乳动物身上。
The mechanism, once you start using gonadal hormones to direct sexual differentiation, you can't end up with that sort of mosaicism, which is maybe too bad.
这种机制是，一旦你开始使用性腺激素来指导性别分化，你就不可能最终得到那种嵌合体，这可能太糟糕了。
There are carnival acts where supposedly one side of the body is male and the other side is female, and those have been around for quite a while, but that's a different thing.
有些嘉年华活动据说身体的一侧是男性，另一侧是女性，这种活动已经存在很长一段时间了，但这是另一回事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Going to give you two real-world examples, real because I was told them and I believe them.
给你们两个现实世界的例子，真实的，因为我被告知它们并且我相信它们。
In anticipation of our conversation today, I ventured into some corners of the Internet I kind of wish I hadn't.
为了期待我们今天的谈话，我冒险进入了互联网的一些角落，但我真希望自己没有这么做。
But in gym culture, bodybuilding culture, there is a subset of people, I don't recommend it, that take synthetic androgens, anabolic steroids of different kinds and in different combinations.
但在健身房文化、健美文化中，有一小部分人服用不同种类和不同组合的合成雄激素、合成代谢类固醇，我不推荐这样做。
And again, I don't recommend people do this.
再说一次，我不建议人们这样做。
But it's entirely different than hormone replacement therapy or something like that.
但这与激素替代疗法或类似疗法完全不同。
Experimentation with high dosages of different types of testosterone derivatives.
高剂量不同类型睾酮衍生物的实验。
And my interest in understanding a little bit of what some of the general observations are there is this is a naturally occurring experiment with some thematic averages, which is geek speak for if one person reports something, it means nothing, but if hundreds of people or thousands of people validate that experience, you think, well, these aren't controlled studies, but nonetheless might be interesting.
我对了解一些一般性观察的兴趣是，这是一个自然发生的实验，具有一些主题平均值，这是极客的说法，如果一个人报告某件事，那就没有任何意义，但如果数百人或数千人验证了该经验，你会想，好吧，这些不是对照研究，但仍然可能很有趣。
And those communities have long talked about how different forms of androgens have different effects on psychology, and in particular, these days, you can find a lot of discussion in those communities of certain anabolic steroids, Trenbolone in particular, that causes aggression, but that is well known for causing otherwise self-reporting as heterosexual males to start wanting to have sex essentially with males or females.
这些社区长期以来一直在讨论不同形式的雄激素如何对心理产生不同的影响，特别是现在，您可以在某些合成代谢类固醇（尤其是群勃龙）的社区中找到很多讨论，这些类固醇会导致攻击性，但众所周知，这会导致异性恋男性开始想要与男性或女性发生性行为。
This is an effect that seems reversible when they stop.
当它们停止时，这种效应似乎是可逆的。
It seems generally associated with a kind of a hypersexuality.
它似乎通常与一种性欲亢进有关。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So that's an important variable.
所以这是一个重要的变量。
So there's all sorts of variables there.
所以那里存在各种各样的变量。
So that's one observation that makes me wonder if the adult brain is still plastic at the level of the hypothalamus to androgens later in life.
因此，这一观察结果让我想知道，成年后的大脑在下丘脑水平对雄激素的影响是否仍然具有可塑性。
Now, this is not to say that the many, now millions of men who are taking testosterone replacement, which is very, very common, doing that safely with doctors' support, et cetera, they're not trying to boost things into super physiological range, but it's a naturally occurring experiment With very few controls and only anecdotal reports, but it suggests that the adult hypothalamus is still androgen sensitive in ways that can drive pretty powerful changes in behavior and perception.
现在，这并不是说，现在有数以百万计的男性正在服用睾酮替代品，这是非常非常常见的，在医生的支持下安全地进行，等等，他们并没有试图将事情提升到超生理范围，但这是一个自然发生的实验，只有很少的对照和只有轶事报告，但它表明成人下丘脑仍然对雄激素敏感，可以驱动行为和感知的相当强大的变化。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
And we know that is true because back in the previous century, Julian Davidson at Stanford, actually, in the physiology department there, was among the first to do these double-blind, placebo-controlled studies in men who had lost their testes for one reason or another, accident or cancer, things like that.
我们知道这是真的，因为早在上个世纪，斯坦福大学生理学系的朱利安·戴维森（Julian Davidson）就是第一批对因事故或癌症等原因失去睾丸的男性进行双盲、安慰剂对照研究的人之一。
And so double blind means neither the man nor the physician who was interacting with him had any idea whether he was getting the placebo or the testosterone.
因此，双盲意味着该男子和与他互动的医生都不知道他服用的是安慰剂还是睾丸激素。
And that's, of course, really important for coming up with conclusions.
当然，这对于得出结论非常重要。
And they concluded that, in fact, the men who were getting testosterone definitely reported feeling better, feeling more energetic, having a higher libido, and they definitely felt better overall.
他们得出的结论是，事实上，接受睾丸激素的男性确实感觉更好，感觉更有活力，性欲更高，而且他们的整体感觉肯定更好。
And Julian said the joke is that even though the men were supposed to be blind to which treatment they were getting, they always knew.
朱利安说，笑话是，尽管这些人应该对他们正在接受的治疗一无所知，但他们总是知道。
They always knew when they were getting the testosterone because they felt so much better.
他们总是知道自己何时获得睾酮，因为他们感觉好多了。
So we know for certain that testosterone does have effects on the adult brain.
所以我们确信睾酮确实对成人大脑有影响。
In many of these cases, these were men, prostate cancer cases, who were elderly yet, and they still responded to that.
在许多这样的病例中，这些病例都是男性、前列腺癌病例，他们已经上了年纪，但他们仍然对此做出反应。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
One thing I learned from your textbook-
我从你的教科书中学到了一件事——
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Okay
好的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
was that this idea that testosterone diminishes with age is largely true, but the rates are highly variable and that there are some individual points on the scatter plot whereby you'll see somebody in their 70s or 80s whose testosterone is very similar to someone in their 20s or 30s.
睾丸激素随着年龄的增长而减少的想法在很大程度上是正确的，但比率变化很大，并且散点图上有一些单独的点，您会看到 70 多岁或 80 多岁的人的睾丸激素与 20 多岁或 30 多岁的人非常相似。
Now, everyone nowadays talks about how testosterone rates are dropping, so these are older studies.
现在，每个人都在谈论睾酮水平如何下降，所以这些都是较旧的研究。
But it suggests that there's a tremendous amount of variation.
但这表明存在巨大的差异。
We also know that absolute numbers don't necessarily dictate how people feel.
我们还知道，绝对数字并不一定决定人们的感受。
In fact, the CEO of a very successful company, not a tech company, an entertainment company, came up to me once at a private party and said that his testosterone was down in the low 300s.
事实上，有一次，一家非常成功的公司（不是一家科技公司，而是一家娱乐公司）的首席执行官在一次私人聚会上找到我，说他的睾酮水平下降到了 300 左右。
So this is approaching the lower end of the reference range.
所以这正在接近参考范围的下限。
But he feels great.
但他感觉很棒。
And I said, "If you're willing, what variables are we talking about here?" And he explained vigor, and he explained libido, and he explained general enthusiasm for life.
我说：“如果你愿意的话，我们在这里讨论什么变量？”他解释了活力，他解释了性欲，他解释了对生活的普遍热情。
And I said, "Well, I wouldn't change a thing in that case." He's a perfect case whereby low end of normal is not a problem.
我说：“好吧，在这种情况下我不会改变任何事情。”他是一个完美的例子，正常水平的低端不是问题。
And who knows?
谁知道呢？
Maybe had he taken more, he would've aromatized more to estrogen, and he wouldn't have felt as good, for instance.
也许如果他服用更多，他就会更多地芳香化为雌激素，例如，他的感觉就不会那么好。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
No, I agree.
不，我同意。
If it ain't broke, leave it alone.
如果它没有损坏，就不要管它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I think it's something that doesn't get mentioned enough.
我认为这是一个没有被足够提及的事情。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
But you also point out why humans are such lousy research subjects, because there's so much variability going on.
但你也指出了为什么人类是如此糟糕的研究对象，因为存在如此多的可变性。
So what I can say is that for the decline in testosterone levels in men, first of all, it's so much more gradual compared to what happens to women at menopause, right?
所以我能说的是，首先，男性睾酮水平的下降比女性更年期的下降要缓慢得多，对吗？
There's no comparison whatsoever.
没有任何可比性。
And there is an incredible amount of variation across subjects.
而且不同科目之间存在着令人难以置信的差异。
And so once again, even though you can say statistically we know this is a trend, you tell me of someone 71 years old, just to pick on me, I can't predict what their testosterone levels are going to be like, or not very well.
因此，即使你可以说从统计数据上我们知道这是一种趋势，但你告诉我一个 71 岁的人，只是为了挑衅我，我无法预测他们的睾丸激素水平会是什么样子，或者不太好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Another sociological observation from the internet.
来自互联网的另一个社会学观察。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Everything on the internet is true.
互联网上的一切都是真实的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Certainly not everything on the internet is true.
当然，并非互联网上的所有内容都是真实的。
I know you were being sarcastic.
我知道你是在讽刺。
And certainly not everything on the internet is informative.
当然，并不是互联网上的所有内容都是信息丰富的。
But clusters and averages are interesting to me.
但集群和平均值对我来说很有趣。
There's a meme which I find interesting vis-à-vis this type of conversation, whereby I think it was a martial artist, a MMA guy from either Russia or some eastern country.
我觉得这种对话很有趣，我认为这是一位武术家，一位来自俄罗斯或某些东方国家的综合格斗选手。
Excuse me.
打扰一下。
The meme goes something like, "Send two, three years Dagestan and forget." A guy is talking about how he wants his kid to be good at wrestling.
这个表情包大概是这样的：“送达吉斯坦两三年，然后就忘了。”一个人正在谈论他希望他的孩子擅长摔跤。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
That's it.
就是这样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so he's going to send him to Dagestan, where apparently the training is very intense.
所以他打算把他送到达吉斯坦，显然那里的训练非常激烈。
And the meme goes, "Send two, three years Dagestan and forget." And he said, "I'm going to send him there for a few weeks." And the guy goes, "No, no, no, send two, three years Dagestan and forget." And that meme, which it's not a cartoon, it's a guy actually speaking in that context.
模因是这样的：“送达吉斯坦两三年，然后就忘记了。”他说：“我要送他去那里几周。”那个人说：“不，不，不，送两三年达吉斯坦然后就忘了。”还有那个模因，它不是卡通，而是一个人在这种情况下真正说话。
You can find extensive compilations of people showing effeminate boys dancing, doing theater-type activities, and then it transitions to, "Send two, three years Dagestan and forget." The idea being, returning to the beginning of our conversation, that there may be more plasticity early in life and that masculinization of behaviors, stereotypically defined, okay, want to be very clear, the idea being that that's very plastic early in life.
你可以找到大量的人物汇编，展示女性化的男孩跳舞、做戏剧式的活动，然后它过渡到“送达吉斯坦两三年，然后就忘了。”回到我们谈话的开始，我们的想法是，在生命的早期可能有更多的可塑性，而行为的男性化，按照刻板的定义，好吧，想要非常清楚，这个想法是，这在生命的早期是非常可塑的。
Okay.
好的。
I think this is interesting and important to observe because when I was a kid, my mom, she still tells me this story, but she's told me this, verified this for many years.
我认为观察这一点很有趣也很重要，因为当我还是个孩子的时候，我妈妈仍然给我讲这个故事，但她告诉我这个，并验证了很多年。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We had a pediatrician.
我们有一位儿科医生。
This was in Northern California.
这是在北加州。
This is just a mile or two away from Stanford School of Medicine.
这里距斯坦福大学医学院仅一两英里。
And my pediatrician said to her, "You have a boy, Andrew, and there are three very important things in raising him." And these were his words: "One, don't let him ride motorcycles."
我的儿科医生对她说：“你有一个男孩，安德鲁，抚养他有三件非常重要的事情。”他的话是这样的：“第一，不要让他骑摩托车。”
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
I agree.
我同意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"Two, don't let him drink soda.
“第二，不要让他喝苏打水。
Too much sugar." Okay, fair.
糖太多了。”好吧，公平。
And he said, "Three, don't let him do theater." The implication being that boys who do theater have a higher probability of becoming gay.
他说：“三，别让他演戏剧。”这意味着从事戏剧表演的男孩成为同性恋的可能性更高。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now, I was born in 1975.
现在，我出生于1975年。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay?
好吧？
He gave this advice to every parent of a male.
他向每一位男性的父母提出了这个建议。
And I say that to frame people's understanding of where we were versus where we are, and yet this meme is, I wouldn't say rampant on the internet, but has a fair amount of support for it in the sense that I think there's still the general belief that certain activities can bias sexual orientation.
我这么说是为了让人们理解我们过去和现在的处境，但我不会说这个模因在互联网上猖獗，但它得到了相当多的支持，因为我认为人们仍然普遍认为某些活动可能会导致性取向偏见。
And I just want to zoom out and ask, acknowledge the idea that the brain is plastic to androgens, behaviors impact androgens.
我只是想缩小范围并问，承认大脑对雄激素具有可塑性，行为会影响雄激素。
So not trying to corral you into a given answer, but I think we've come a certain distance in this, but we haven't really come that far.
因此，我不想让您陷入一个给定的答案，但我认为我们在这方面已经取得了一定的进展，但我们还没有真正走到那么远。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Well, and of course, there's no doubt that the younger brain is more plastic.
嗯，当然，毫无疑问，年轻的大脑更具可塑性。
There's no way around that.
没有办法解决这个问题。
But in terms of what one can do, there are limits.
但就一个人能做的事情而言，是有限制的。
And in terms of sexual orientation, I can tell you, people look really hard for any social correlates.
就性取向而言，我可以告诉你，人们非常努力地寻找任何社会关联。
You talked earlier about the dad that's missing or even Freud talked about the overly coddling mother and the dismissive father, that that might make a boy more likely to be gay.
你之前谈到了失踪的父亲，甚至弗洛伊德也谈到了过于溺爱的母亲和轻视的父亲，这可能会让男孩更有可能成为同性恋。
And so people have looked for those sorts of correlates.
因此人们一直在寻找这些类型的相关性。
The data just aren't there.
数据根本不存在。
Which I think is interesting-
我觉得很有趣——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
...
...
and kind of strange, because you'd think that if the social influence was that good, that you'd find something.
有点奇怪，因为你会认为如果社会影响力那么好，你就会找到一些东西。
And so, in terms of sexual orientation, I think the data are pretty weak.
因此，就性取向而言，我认为数据相当薄弱。
However, in terms of other expressions of male-like behavior, clearly culture and family has a say, right?
然而，就男性行为的其他表现而言，文化和家庭显然有发言权，对吗？
They clearly make an influence in terms of what boys are supposed to do.
他们显然对男孩应该做什么产生了影响。
I would say probably the only sex difference that will persist and that almost certainly is due to biological factors like testosterone is, you mentioned already, rough and tumble play.
我想说，唯一持续存在的性别差异，几乎可以肯定是由于睾丸激素等生物因素造成的，你已经提到过，粗暴的玩耍。
Across so many species, you put a bunch of males together, and there'll be a lot more physical activity than if you put a bunch of females together.
在如此多的物种中，将一群雄性放在一起，会比将一群雌性放在一起进行更多的体力活动。
And an interesting thing happens if you put it in a mixed group, and it doesn't matter whether it's monkeys or rats, the overall play will be intermediate.
而如果你把它放在混合组中，就会发生一个有趣的事情，不管是猴子还是老鼠，整体的表现都会是中间的。
It's like the girls calm the boys down, and the boys ramp the girls up a little bit.
就像女孩让男孩平静下来，而男孩则让女孩兴奋一点。
And so that might be one that's going to be pretty hard to corral with social influences.
因此，这可能很难与社会影响相结合。
But virtually every other expression of masculine behavior, of course, culture and family make a difference.
但实际上，男性行为的所有其他表现形式，当然，文化和家庭都会产生影响。
I don't know if I'm going to suggest anyone send their child to-
我不知道我是否会建议任何人将他们的孩子送到-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Augustine two, three years and forget.
奥古斯丁两三年就忘记了。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yes.
是的。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Thank you for saying that.
谢谢你这么说。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The original statement, it was a real statement in a discussion-
原来的说法，是在一次讨论中真实的说法——
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
was aimed at something else.
目的是别的东西。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's been co-opted for this-
为此，它被选为——
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Of course it would
当然会
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
like this is the form of intervention or whatever you want to call it.
这就是干预的形式，或者随便你怎么称呼它。
Okay.
好的。
Let's set the internet aside and let's talk about a different upbringing for a moment, which is yours.
让我们把互联网放在一边，暂时谈谈你的不同的成长经历。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Oh.
哦。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As a scientist, you have a somewhat unusual trajectory into science.
作为一名科学家，你的科学轨迹有些不寻常。
So, where were you born?
那么，你出生在哪里？
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
In the Ozarks, in Springfield, Missouri.
在密苏里州斯普林菲尔德的奥沙克地区。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, I was about to say, where are the Ozarks?
哦，我正想说，奥沙克在哪里？
I know where they are, but to orient our international audience.
我知道他们在哪里，但为了引导我们的国际观众。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Southern Missouri and northern Arkansas.
密苏里州南部和阿肯色州北部。
So it's famous because it's hill country.
因为是山地所以出名。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
And so very hilly.
所以非常丘陵。
Very much like the Appalachians, both in terrain and in culture, actually.
实际上，无论是在地形上还是在文化上，都非常像阿巴拉契亚山脉。
So no, I was born in the Ozarks in a working class family.
所以不，我出生在奥沙克的一个工人阶级家庭。
No one in my family had ever, well, no one in my mother's generation had finished high school, much less college.
我家里没有人，嗯，我母亲那一代没有人读完高中，更不用说大学了。
And, I was always a little bit different, because I was so much more interested in reading than...
而且，我总是有点不同，因为我对阅读的兴趣比......
All my cousins say that all they remember about me when we were growing up is I always had my nose in a book.
我所有的表兄弟都说，在我们成长的过程中，他们对我的记忆就是我总是埋头读书。
That phrase.
那句话。
And I didn't choose that.
我没有选择那样。
I didn't choose to like reading, but I always did.
我没有选择喜欢读书，但我一直喜欢读书。
And I always loved school, and I will say I had a great family that was incredibly supportive of me doing whatever I wanted to.
我一直热爱学校，我会说我有一个伟大的家庭，他们非常支持我做任何我想做的事情。
That would be fine.
那就好了。
And as I look back, I realize, and I predict you'll find this too, the older I get, the more I realize how much luck matters and how many very fortunate things happened to me.
当我回顾过去时，我意识到，而且我预测你也会发现这一点，随着年龄的增长，我越意识到运气有多么重要，以及有多少非常幸运的事情发生在我身上。
So, the first question is, I end up going to Yale College.
所以，第一个问题是，我最终会去耶鲁大学。
What?
什么？
Working class family.
工人阶级家庭。
So my folks were blue collar workers.
所以我的家人都是蓝领工人。
For complicated reasons, I was raised by my grandparents.
由于复杂的原因，我是由祖父母抚养长大的。
He was a construction worker, and she worked in a food processing plant.
他是一名建筑工人，她在一家食品加工厂工作。
And so they once told me that maybe altogether they went to third grade.
所以他们有一次告诉我，也许他们都上了三年级。
They got that far.
他们已经走到了这一步。
But, they were clearly smart and great people, and they were very supportive.
但是，他们显然是聪明而伟大的人，而且非常支持我们。
And so, here's an incredibly lucky episode that happened to me.
所以，这是发生在我身上的非常幸运的一件事。
So when I was a junior in high school, I go to the central high school library, and I volunteered there after work to put away books.
所以当我高三的时候，我去中央高中图书馆，下班后我自愿去那里放书。
And the librarian tells me, "Oh, there's this book you might be interested in." And she shows me this really thick paperback made out by the College Board.
图书管理员告诉我，“哦，这本书你可能会感兴趣。”她给我看了这本由大学理事会制作的厚平装本。
So this was the first year that the College Board had put together this book showing all the colleges in the United States with little blurbs about them And she said, "You might want to look at that." And I open it up, and I see that for all the colleges, there's a paragraph about financial aid.
所以这是大学理事会第一年整理这本书，展示了美国所有的大学，并对其进行了一些介绍。她说，“你可能想看看。”我打开它，我看到所有大学都有一段关于经济援助的内容。
So I read that entire book from front to back, except I only read the financial aid part.
所以我从头到尾读了整本书，除了我只读了经济援助部分。
Because at the time, my grandfather had passed away, and so my grandmother and I, our only income was Social Security.
因为当时爷爷已经去世了，所以我和奶奶唯一的收入就是社保。
That was our livelihood.
那是我们的生计。
And so I read financial aid, every one, and I get to the end.
所以我读了每一篇经济援助，然后读到了最后。
In this first edition, they were in alphabetical order, which makes no sense, but that's how it was.
在第一版中，它们按字母顺序排列，这毫无意义，但事实就是如此。
I get to the end, and the one for Yale College, it's one of the shortest listings there.
我读到了最后，耶鲁大学的名单是最短的名单之一。
And it says, basically, "We're committed to making sure everyone admitted will get the financial aid they need." This is me.
基本上，它说，“我们致力于确保每个被录取的人都能获得他们需要的经济援助。”这就是我。
This is what I need.
这就是我需要的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You had to read the whole book just to get there.
你必须阅读整本书才能到达那里。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Well, the next entry was Yeshiva, which I thought, "Well, that's a strange name," but if they'd had that paragraph, believe me, I would've been applying there, which would've been fun, too.
嗯，下一个条目是 Yeshiva，我想，“嗯，这是一个奇怪的名字，”但如果他们有那一段，相信我，我会在那里申请，这也会很有趣。
And so I go to my counselor and I say, well...
所以我去找我的辅导员，我说，好吧......
I'd never heard of Yale.
我从来没有听说过耶鲁大学。
I associate it with locks.
我将它与锁联系在一起。
I'd heard of Harvard because of Kennedy, but nobody in my family talked-- I go to my counselor, her name was Jean Walker, and she says, "That's an Ivy League school." "Huh?
我因为肯尼迪而听说过哈佛，但我家里没有人谈论——我去找我的辅导员，她的名字叫让·沃克，她说，“那是一所常春藤盟校。” “嗯？
What does that mean?" And she tells me.
那是什么意思？”她告诉我。
And to her credit, she doesn't say, "That's stupid.
值得赞扬的是，她没有说：“那很愚蠢。
Why would you be doing that?" She says, "You know what?
你为什么要这么做？”她说：“你知道吗？
You should apply for early admissions this year." Early admission?
今年你应该申请提前入学。”提早入学？
I know.
我知道。
Okay.
好的。
So I apply for early admission.
所以我申请提前入学。
I don't get in.
我不进去。
So, it's okay.
所以，没关系。
But I'll try again next year because that paragraph, it's really got it under my skin.
但明年我会再试一次，因为那段话真的让我很受触动。
This is what I need.
这就是我需要的。
So apply the next year.
所以明年再申请。
And this time, they ask me for an interview.
这次，他们要求我接受采访。
And I'm to have an interview with Dr. John Ferguson.
我要采访约翰·弗格森博士。
I'm to call up his office and arrange for an interview.
我要打电话给他的办公室并安排面谈。
And I'm sitting in French class with my friend Dale, and I'm telling him, "I'm supposed to make an appointment with Dr. John Ferguson." And the French teacher, who was one of my letter writers, Mrs. Fisher, she overhears this and she says, "What on earth?
我和我的朋友戴尔一起坐在法语课上，我告诉他，“我应该和约翰·弗格森博士预约。”法语老师，也是我写信的人之一，费舍尔夫人，她无意中听到了这件事，她说：“到底是什么？
Why would you go see Dr. John Ferguson?" Because she knew, but I didn't, he was an OBGYN.
你为什么要去见约翰·弗格森医生？”因为她知道，但我不知道，他是一名妇产科医生。
And I sort of sotto voce, "Well," "Oh, well, I know John.
我低声说道，“好吧，”“哦，好吧，我认识约翰。
He's an old family friend.
他是我们家的老朋友了。
I used to babysit him.
我曾经照顾过他。
And well, I'll be calling him." I don't remember the interview with the man.
好吧，我会打电话给他。”我不记得对那个人的采访。
I don't remember a thing about it, but I'm sure he told them I was the greatest thing on Earth because I'm sure he gave me as strong a recommendation as he possibly could.
我对此一无所知，但我确信他告诉他们我是地球上最伟大的人，因为我确信他给了我尽可能强烈的推荐。
And so I got in.
于是我就进去了。
And they were true to their word.
他们信守诺言。
They send me this thick letter with all this financial aid.
他们给我寄了这封厚厚的信，里面附有所有这些经济援助。
And they didn't expect my family to contribute anything.
他们并不指望我的家人会做出任何贡献。
So it worked out.
所以它成功了。
I have mixed feelings about Yale because I benefited so much.
我对耶鲁的感受很复杂，因为我受益匪浅。
And I'll credit myself with this.
我会相信这一点。
I went with the right attitude.
我带着正确的态度去了。
Which is, they've made a mistake.
也就是说，他们犯了一个错误。
Mrs. Fisher got me in, and I'm not going to screw this up.
费舍尔夫人让我进来的，我不会把事情搞砸的。
And indeed, Andy, I want to know everything.
事实上，安迪，我想知道一切。
I want to know about art and literature and all the sciences.
我想了解艺术、文学以及所有科学。
I was hungry.
我很饿。
And I went with the attitude is, man, all of these people are smarter than I am, and so I'm just going to soak it up.
我的态度是，伙计，所有这些人都比我聪明，所以我只想吸收它。
And at least half of what I learned at Yale, I learned from other students.
我在耶鲁学到的东西至少有一半是从其他学生那里学到的。
And the first night I'm on campus, you can see what happened.
我到校园的第一个晚上，你就可以看到发生了什么。
So first of all, I drive from Springfield to New Haven.
首先，我从斯普林菲尔德开车到纽黑文。
It's a long drive, but that's how we go places.
虽然车程很长，但这就是我们去各个地方的方式。
We drive.
我们开车。
I get to New Haven and it's, where am I going to park this car?
我到了纽黑文，我要把车停在哪里？
Of course, there'd be parking lots.
当然，会有停车场。
And so I find a place in downtown, a garage, and oh my god, this is going to cost me so much money to keep the car here.
于是我在市中心找到了一个地方，一个车库，天哪，我要花很多钱才能把车停在这里。
I got to take it back as soon as I can.
我得尽快把它拿回来。
And I go up to my dorm room in the old campus, and I meet my three roommates.
我回到老校区的宿舍，见到了我的三个室友。
And I know how to be sociable, so "Where'd you go to high school?" And two of them tell me they went to prep school.
我知道如何社交，所以“你在哪里上高中？”其中两个告诉我他们去了预科学校。
"Huh?
“嗯？
What's a prep school?" And they explain that to me.
什么是预科学校？”他们向我解释了这一点。
And then they start talking about Andover versus Phillips Exeter.
然后他们开始谈论安多弗和菲利普斯·埃克塞特。
And the third guy, I won't mention the name, but his last name is one of generational wealth that every American has heard.
第三个人，我不会提及他的名字，但他的姓氏是每个美国人都听说过的世代财富之一。
So it's like, okay, I'm not in the Ozarks anymore.
所以这就好像，好吧，我不再在奥沙克了。
And then they start smoking dope.
然后他们开始吸毒。
And I've never seen that before.
我以前从未见过这样的情况。
I've never been around people smoking marijuana before.
我以前从未见过有人吸食大麻。
And they assure me, "Oh, the campus cops, they'll look the other way." And that very summer in Greene County, where I'm from, a judge had sentenced a young man for possession of marijuana, had given him a life sentence.
他们向我保证，“哦，校园警察，他们会另眼相看的。”就在那个夏天，在我来自的格林县，一名法官因持有大麻而判处一名年轻人无期徒刑。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Whoa.
哇哦。
For possession of weed?
为了拥有杂草？
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
This is 1972, and this is the Ozarks.
这是 1972 年，这是奥沙克。
Not the same sort of place.
不是同一类型的地方。
So I'm thinking, well, maybe the campus cops would overlook you smoking dope, but I'm not going to give Yale any excuse to send me home.
所以我在想，好吧，也许校园警察会忽视你吸毒，但我不会给耶鲁大学任何送我回家的借口。
It was like a kid in a candy shop.
就像一个孩子在糖果店里一样。
And because I regarded everyone there as-- They certainly knew more than I did, all of them.
因为我认为那里的每个人——他们所有人都比我知道得更多。
And they were probably smarter than I.
他们可能比我聪明。
It was like I never felt the pressure to be the smartest person in the room.
就好像我从来没有感受到成为房间里最聪明的人的压力。
Okay, I'm not, I don't care.
好吧，我不是，我不在乎。
And I took as many classes as I could.
我尽可能多地参加了课程。
You were supposed to take no more than five courses per term.
每个学期你应该选修不超过五门课程。
And so I would always want to take six, and the dean wouldn't let me.
所以我总是想选六门，但院长不让。
So I'd take five courses and a lab, which is like half a course, et cetera.
所以我会选修五门课程和一个实验室，相当于半门课程，等等。
I'm not getting As in everything, but I don't care.
我并不是每件事都得A，但我不在乎。
So I'm having a great time.
所以我玩得很开心。
And that's when I learned about neuroscience.
就在那时我了解了神经科学。
So first someone told me, "Oh, look at this course about comparative psychology." What's comparative psychology?
所以首先有人告诉我，“哦，看看这门关于比较心理学的课程。”什么是比较心理学？
It means comparing across species.
这意味着跨物种比较。
And oh, I didn't know psychologists studied animal behavior.
哦，我不知道心理学家研究动物行为。
And then pretty soon, I took a class Linda Upphouse taught, a physiological psychologist, taught neuroscience, and I'm hooked.
很快，我参加了琳达·厄普豪斯（Linda Upphouse）教授的课程，她是一位生理心理学家，教授神经科学，我就着迷了。
I love this stuff.
我喜欢这个东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's been an amazing arc to go from the Ozarks to Yale.
从奥沙克到耶鲁是一段令人惊叹的弧线。
I love that when you found yourself in an environment that offered a lot of opportunity, that you seized that opportunity.
我喜欢当你发现自己处于一个提供很多机会的环境中时，你抓住了这个机会。
I think many people wouldn't have done the same had they not had your background, but maybe even if they had.
我认为，如果没有你的背景，很多人都不会做同样的事情，但即使他们有的话，他们也可能会这么做。
I think that when you find yourself in a place where there's tons to learn and you throw yourself into that, only good things can come of that.
我认为，当你发现自己身处一个有很多东西需要学习的地方并全身心投入其中时，只会带来好的结果。
You mentioned luck, but I think luck is, I wouldn't say evenly distributed, but it has a habit of finding the prepared, as they say.
你提到了运气，但我认为运气是，我不会说是均匀分布的，但正如他们所说，它有一个习惯，就是找到有准备的人。
I obviously didn't make that statement.
我显然没有发表过这样的言论。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I love this theme of exploration.
我喜欢这个探索的主题。
I think of you as the hormones and sex behavior, hormones and sexual orientation scientist.
我认为您是激素与性行为、激素与性取向的科学家。
But I also remember, and it was 25 years ago, that you always walked very quickly, and you always had an idea that you were excited about whenever I'd run into you.
但我也记得，那是25年前的事了，你总是走得很快，每当我遇到你时，你总是有一个让你兴奋的想法。
So I want to say you've really inspired my career to go after things that interested me and just really follow those trails.
所以我想说，你确实激励了我的职业生涯，让我去追求我感兴趣的事物，并真正追随这些足迹。
And also when it wasn't so clear what to do, to pick the thing that at least was most exciting then and not worry about where that was going to lead next.
而且，当不太清楚该做什么时，选择至少当时最令人兴奋的事情，而不用担心接下来会导致什么结果。
You strike me as one of the least careerist people I've ever met.
在我看来，你是我见过的最没有野心的人之一。
And I also acknowledge you've had a spectacular career, and it's still going.
我也承认你拥有辉煌的职业生涯，而且它仍在继续。
Your name is synonymous with hormones and behavior and hormones and sex behavior.
你的名字是荷尔蒙和行为以及荷尔蒙和性行为的代名词。
You're being humble now, but it's absolutely true.
你现在很谦虚，但这绝对是真的。
It didn't hurt that your last name was Breedlove if I'm honest.
老实说，你的姓氏是布里德洛夫，这并没有什么坏处。
But let's face it, that wasn't going to confer you a real lasting advantage, so clearly you've put in the work.
但让我们面对现实吧，这不会给你带来真正持久的优势，所以显然你已经投入了工作。
I also really want to thank you for coming here today and teaching people what's known about these topics.
我也非常感谢您今天来到这里并向人们传授有关这些主题的知识。
And these are not easy topics to parse.
这些都不是容易解析的话题。
The languaging has to be very specific.
语言必须非常具体。
The reason it has to be specific is in one part political, sort of, but it's really about making sure that people understand what's true, what's not true, and what's not known yet, so that they can form their own ideas.
它必须具体的原因一方面是政治原因，但实际上是为了确保人们了解什么是真实的、什么是不真实的以及什么是未知的，以便他们能够形成自己的想法。
And I really admire the way that you're able to do that.
我真的很钦佩你能够做到这一点。
And I also learned a ton today.
今天我也学到了很多东西。
So, I'm struck by a number of different things in this model of how we become who we are.
因此，我对这个关于我们如何成为自己的模型中的许多不同的事情感到震惊。
And as someone who's raised kids successfully, and now has grandkids-
作为一个成功抚养孩子、现在已经有了孙子的人——
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yes.
是的。
Two
两个
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I knew your kids, so that's a trip to me.
I knew your kids, so that's a trip to me.
I haven't seen them in years, but they have kids.
我已经好几年没见到他们了，但他们都有孩子了。
I think maybe you would just comment briefly on did you observe early sex differences in terms of behavior?
我想也许你会简单地评论一下你是否观察到早期行为方面的性别差异？
Was it striking?
是不是很震撼呢？
Did you do experiments on your kids, or did you opt not to?
您是否对您的孩子做过实验，或者您选择不这样做？
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
It was pretty amazing, really, now that you mention it, because Steve Quickman once told me that someone did a study where you ask people, "How much do you attribute personality to nature and how much to nurture?" And he said the only correlation that came out of it was the more kids people had, the more they thought nature was important for determining.
确实，现在你提到这一点，这真是太神奇了，因为史蒂夫·奎克曼曾经告诉我，有人做过一项研究，你问人们：“你认为性格在多大程度上是先天造成的，有多少是后天培养的？”他说，由此得出的唯一相关性是，人们拥有的孩子越多，他们就越认为自然对于决定至关重要。
And you know that because if you have more than one kid, they're not the same.
你知道这一点，因为如果你有多个孩子，他们就不一样了。
And so in terms of sex differences, I'll tell you.
所以就性别差异而言，我会告诉你。
So I have one daughter, Tessa, and she had two older brothers, et cetera.
我有一个女儿，泰莎，她有两个哥哥，等等。
And my partner, Cindy Jordan, neuroscientist too, and she almost never wore dresses.
我的搭档辛迪·乔丹（Cindy Jordan）也是神经科学家，她几乎从不穿裙子。
That would be a skirt.
那将是一条裙子。
That was just not useful around the lab.
That was just not useful around the lab.
And there was a period there where every day with Tessa, it was a struggle if we didn't put her in a dress.
有一段时间，每天和泰莎在一起，如果我们不给她穿上裙子，她就会很挣扎。
She really wanted to wear it.
She really wanted to wear it.
And as soon as she could walk, one of the things she liked to do was to put on her mother's various shoes and walk around in them, cute, et cetera.
一旦她会走路，她喜欢做的一件事就是穿上她妈妈的各种鞋子，穿着它们走来走去，可爱等等。
She was so different from the beginning.
She was so different from the beginning.
Now, I'm not a biological determinist.
Now, I'm not a biological determinist.
I don't think biology is everything.
I don't think biology is everything.
I don't think prenatal things are everything.
I don't think prenatal things are everything.
There's no one cause of any human behavior, but it really struck me.
任何人类行为都没有单一的原因，但这确实让我震惊。
Oh, and one of my boys could make a gun out of anything.
哦，我的一个儿子可以用任何东西制造一把枪。
There was an era where we're trying not to-
There was an era where we're trying not to-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Even growing up in Berkeley.
Even growing up in Berkeley.
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Oh my.
天哪。
Well, especially in Berkeley, because he wasn't going to find a toy gun, but by golly, he could make one.
嗯，尤其是在伯克利，因为他不会找到一把玩具枪，但天哪，他可以制造一把。
And he was also the kid that loved any toy with wheels on it.
他也是那个喜欢任何带轮子玩具的孩子。
And even among monkeys, Melissa Hines showed it first.
即使在猴子中，梅丽莎·海因斯也首先表现出了这一点。
Even among monkeys, if you put in wheeled toys, it's the male monkeys that are much more interested in that than the females.
即使在猴子中，如果放入带轮子的玩具，雄性猴子也会比雌性猴子更感兴趣。
And the female monkeys are much more interested in the dolls, et cetera.
母猴对娃娃等更感兴趣。
So yeah, you have more than one kid, I predict you're going to be amazed about how different the kids are, even though you're the same family.
所以，是的，你有多个孩子，我预测你会对孩子们的不同感到惊讶，即使你们是同一个家庭。
They don't all come out the same.
它们的结果并不都一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Once again, you've been a huge inspiration to me over the years, and I know that the listeners are greatly appreciative of everything you've taught.
多年来，您再次给了我巨大的灵感，我知道听众非常感谢您所教授的一切。
And we got to get you back here.
我们必须让你回到这里。
Oh, also, you're writing a book-
Oh, also, you're writing a book-
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
about the biology of sexual orientation.
about the biology of sexual orientation.
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Yep.
是的。
I'm trying.
我想。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I didn't know this.
我不知道这个。
We actually don't really do book promos.
We actually don't really do book promos.
That's not really our podcast, but when can we expect that book to hit the shelves?
这并不是我们真正的播客，但是我们什么时候可以期待那本书上架呢？
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
Oh, you put me in such a tough spot.
Oh, you put me in such a tough spot.
So I'm struggling with it.
So I'm struggling with it.
I've written six chapters, and I'm intending there to be 11.
我已经写了六章，我打算写到十一章。
My goal is, can I get this first draft done by this fall?
我的目标是，我能在今年秋天之前完成初稿吗？
And then there's reviewing and things like that that'll happen.
然后就会发生审查之类的事情。
So knock on wood, I'm I'm really hoping I'm going to finish this book.
所以，我真的希望我能完成这本书。
And if so, since you owe me so much, I expect you to buy a copy.
如果是这样，既然你欠我这么多，我希望你买一本。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
I'll buy a copy, I'll read it, and I'll let the world know what I think about it.
我会买一本，我会读它，然后我会让全世界知道我的想法。
Dr. Mark Breedlove, thanks for coming here today.
马克·布里德洛夫博士，感谢您今天来到这里。
Come back again.
再回来吧。
Dr. Marc Breedlove:
马克·布里德洛夫博士：
It was a pleasure.
这是一种乐趣。
I've had a great time.
我玩得很开心。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Mark Breedlove.
感谢您参加今天与马克·布里德洛夫博士的讨论。
To learn more about his work, please see the links in the show note captions.
要了解有关他的作品的更多信息，请参阅演出注释标题中的链接。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的关注按钮来关注播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review, and you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您可以给我们留下五星级的评论，现在您可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客或嘉宾有意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑的主题，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience, and it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这是我花了五年多时间编写的一本书，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验，涵盖了从睡眠到运动到压力控制的各个方面的方案，以及与注意力和动机相关的方案，当然，我还为所包含的方案提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." And if you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。
So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。
Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
同样，所有社交媒体平台上都是 Huberman Lab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available completely zero cost.
所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的菜单选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件。
And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Mark Breedlove.
再次感谢您参加今天与 Mark Breedlove 博士的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
Saying how you feel out loud is terrifying, but that's what Hinge's new free audiobook, "No Ordinary Love," is all about.
大声说出你的感受是很可怕的，但这就是 Hinge 的新免费有声读物“No Ordinary Love”的全部内容。
It's a collection of real love stories about five couples that met on Hinge.
这是一本关于五对在 Hinge 上相识的情侣的真实爱情故事的合集。
The stories are written and read by Tembi Dinton-Hurst, Nicola Dinan, Curtis Garner, Raven Smith, and Rufi Thorpe.
这些故事由坦比·丁顿-赫斯特、尼古拉·迪南、柯蒂斯·加纳、雷文·史密斯和鲁菲·索普撰写和朗读。
I, Hunter Harris, wrote and read the foreword.
我，亨特·哈里斯，撰写并阅读了前言。
The audiobook's out now.
有声读物现在已经出来了。
Give it a listen.
听一下。