How Dopamine & Serotonin Shape Decisions, Motivation & Learning | Dr. Read Montague
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
If any goal that you achieved, whatever it is, taking a drug, eating a food, getting a partner or whatnot, if that was enough for you right then, you wouldn't keep living.
如果你实现了任何目标，无论是什么，服用药物、吃食物、找个伴侣等等，如果这对你来说已经足够了，你就不会继续生活了。
You want that system to keep tracking, and once it gets to one place, you want it to have another place to which it could go.
您希望该系统继续跟踪，一旦到达一个地方，您希望它可以到达另一个地方。
Otherwise, you wouldn't live.
不然你就活不下去了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. Read Montague.
今天我的客人是里德·蒙塔古博士。
Dr. Read Montague is the director of the Center for Human Neuroscience Research at Virginia Tech.
Read Montague 博士是弗吉尼亚理工大学人类神经科学研究中心主任。
He is also an expert in the science of motivation, decision-making, and learning, and a pioneer in developing methods to directly measure levels of dopamine and other neuromodulators in humans in real time.
他也是动机、决策和学习科学方面的专家，也是开发直接实时测量人类多巴胺和其他神经调节剂水平的方法的先驱。
Today, you'll learn how dopamine really works, not just to regulate your levels of motivation, we've all heard that before, but also to teach you things.
今天，您将了解多巴胺的真正作用原理，它不仅可以调节您的动机水平（我们以前都听说过），还可以教您一些东西。
Dopamine is involved in learning, as well as persistence or lack of persistence.
多巴胺与学习有关，也与坚持或缺乏坚持有关。
As Read will teach you, most of what we hear and know about dopamine is based on the idea that dopamine levels go up or down, depending on our levels of expectations and then what happens.
正如里德将教给你的那样，我们听到和了解的关于多巴胺的大部分信息都是基于这样的想法：多巴胺水平会上升或下降，具体取决于我们的期望水平以及随后发生的情况。
But as he explains, most aspects of life, work, school, relationships, our pursuit of money, et cetera, involve multiple milestones.
但正如他解释的那样，生活、工作、学校、人际关系、我们对金钱的追求等等的大多数方面都涉及多个里程碑。
We work, we wait, then we get an outcome that, in turn, informs the thing we do next.
我们工作，我们等待，然后我们得到一个结果，而这个结果反过来又告诉我们下一步要做的事情。
Or maybe dopamine arrives suddenly with no work involved at all.
或者多巴胺可能突然到来，根本不需要任何工作。
In other words, dopamine levels are constantly changing, and that shapes not just what you do now, but how you think about your recent past and what you will do next.
换句话说，多巴胺水平不断变化，它不仅影响你现在所做的事情，还影响你如何看待最近的过去以及下一步要做什么。
So when we say dopamine is involved in learning, today you are going to realize that dopamine is teaching you how to adjust your behavior.
所以当我们说多巴胺参与学习时，今天你会意识到多巴胺正在教你如何调整你的行为。
We, of course, discuss how this knowledge can be leveraged for better motivation and decision-making, even better social interactions.
当然，我们讨论如何利用这些知识来更好地激励和决策，甚至更好的社交互动。
And we also discuss serotonin and how dopamine and serotonin work in sort of seesaw fashion, and how serotonin, in particular, teaches you about unwanted outcomes.
我们还讨论了血清素，以及多巴胺和血清素如何以跷跷板的方式发挥作用，特别是血清素如何告诉您不良结果。
We also have a discussion about SSRIs that you're going to find fascinating.
我们还进行了有关 SSRI 的讨论，您一定会觉得很有趣。
As Read points out, SSRIs increase levels of serotonin, but often that serotonin gets used at the dopamine synapses to reduce the rewarding properties of dopamine.
正如 Read 指出的那样，SSRIs 会增加血清素的水平，但血清素常常被多巴胺突触使用，从而降低多巴胺的奖励特性。
So today's discussion about dopamine and serotonin is going to be vastly different than any that you've heard or read about elsewhere.
因此，今天关于多巴胺和血清素的讨论将与您在其他地方听到或读到的任何讨论有很大不同。
You're going to learn how those neuromodulators work, and you're going to learn how they impact your everyday life and decision-making.
您将了解这些神经调节剂的工作原理，以及它们如何影响您的日常生活和决策。
As we all know, discussions about dopamine and serotonin are everywhere nowadays.
众所周知，现在关于多巴胺和血清素的讨论随处可见。
But in today's episode, you're going to learn from a top expert in the field what these molecules truly do, and that's going to help you better leverage your efforts, introduce what we call deliberate delays, and how to use tools like AI to improve your levels of motivation and your ability to learn through neuroplasticity.
但在今天的节目中，您将向该领域的顶级专家了解这些分子的真正作用，这将帮助您更好地利用您的努力，介绍我们所谓的故意延迟，以及如何使用人工智能等工具来提高您的动机水平和通过神经可塑性学习的能力。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Read Montague.
现在我与里德·蒙塔古博士进行讨论。
Dr. Read Montague, great to see you after all these 15 years.
Read Montague 博士，很高兴 15 年后再次见到您。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
15 years.
15 年。
You turned us down for a job offer then.
当时你拒绝了我们的工作机会。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I did.
我做到了。
But we both turned out okay.
但结果我们俩都还好。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Well, I hope so.
嗯，我希望如此。
We'll see.
我们拭目以待。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, you certainly turned out okay, and you look great.
嗯，你的表现确实不错，而且看起来很棒。
It's always great to see a colleague looking so fit and healthy, who also raised five children successfully and all those things.
看到一位同事看起来如此健康，而且还成功抚养了五个孩子等等，我总是很高兴。
We'll talk a little bit about your life and maybe your athletic life a little bit later, but I want to talk about dopamine.
我们稍后会谈谈你的生活，也许还有你的运动生活，但我想谈谈多巴胺。
The world is obsessed with dopamine now.
现在全世界都沉迷于多巴胺。
Until very recently, people thought about dopamine as a reward.
直到最近，人们还认为多巴胺是一种奖励。
Now, slowly, people are starting to understand that dopamine is involved with things other than feeling good, such as motivation, movement, et cetera.
现在，人们慢慢地开始明白，多巴胺除了感觉良好之外，还与其他事物有关，例如动机、运动等等。
How do you think about dopamine, the neuromodulator?
您如何看待神经调节剂多巴胺？
And then we'll move into the context in which you study dopamine.
然后我们将进入研究多巴胺的背景。
But when somebody says, "What does dopamine do?" how do you think and respond to that question?
但当有人问：“多巴胺有什么作用？”您如何看待并回答这个问题？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Ah.
啊。
Well, it used to be that dopamine was thought to equal pleasure.
嗯，过去人们认为多巴胺等于快乐。
Dopamine goes up, you feel good.
多巴胺升高，你感觉良好。
Dopamine goes down, you feel less good.
多巴胺下降，你感觉不太好。
Okay.
好的。
There's been an explosion of work on it.
这方面的工作呈爆炸式增长。
Most of the new work that's not psychological has been out of the artificial intelligence world, what's now called artificial intelligence.
大多数非心理学的新工作已经脱离了人工智能领域，即现在所谓的人工智能。
It's very clearly a learning signal, number one.
第一，这显然是一个学习信号。
So dopamine fluctuations, high and low, control learning.
因此，多巴胺的波动（高低）控制着学习。
It's also playing multiple roles.
它还扮演着多种角色。
It plays a role in motivation, and it may also play a role in the way you feel.
它在动机方面发挥作用，也可能在你的感受方面发挥作用。
Okay?
好的？
It's less well understood how the sort of mechanics of what dopamine does for changing your nervous system relates to your feeling state.
人们不太清楚多巴胺改变神经系统的机制与你的感觉状态有何关系。
You can have a feeling state that's good and see things that don't correlate with dopamine being the cause of it.
你可能会有一种良好的感觉状态，并看到与多巴胺无关的事物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's talk about dopamine in the context of learning, because that's something that I think most people don't associate with dopamine.
让我们在学习的背景下谈论多巴胺，因为我认为大多数人不会将其与多巴胺联系起来。
What are a few examples of what we know about dopamine and its role in learning?
有哪些例子可以说明我们对多巴胺及其在学习中的作用的了解？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
That's a world I can't even summarize in a quick way.
这是一个我什至无法快速概括的世界。
People that work on rodents now will take a genetically modified rodent, and they will study the way in which dopamine release correlates with something the animal is learning.
现在研究啮齿类动物的人们将采用转基因啮齿类动物，他们将研究多巴胺释放与动物正在学习的东西之间的关联方式。
The animal may learn to turn left when it sees a light.
当动物看到光时，它可能会学会向左转。
It may learn to run toward food.
它可能会学会跑向食物。
It may learn to run down a maze.
它可能会学会走迷宫。
All kinds of learning tasks associated with the animal are associated with dopamine fluctuations in your brain.
与动物相关的各种学习任务都与大脑中的多巴胺波动有关。
Now, these aren't global.
现在，这些都不是全球性的。
They're all over the place, but there are different kinds of signals that you can find in different spots in your brain And we've begun to understand dopamine as a central player in the algorithms that your brain runs.
它们无处不在，但是您可以在大脑的不同位置找到不同类型的信号。我们已经开始了解多巴胺是大脑运行算法的核心角色。
And that's where people like me, computational neuroscientists, have made a connection.
这就是像我这样的计算神经科学家建立联系的地方。
And that's the connection between the kinds of learning rules and learning procedures that are installed in your brain and installed in the brain of every mobile creature on the planet, and dopamine fluctuations.
这就是安装在你的大脑中以及安装在地球上每个移动生物的大脑中的学习规则和学习程序与多巴胺波动之间的联系。
So that's a strong connection that has been worked out over the last 30 years.
因此，这是过去 30 年来建立起来的牢固联系。
The algorithms are well understood.
这些算法很好理解。
What wasn't well understood 30 years ago was the kind of remarkable things those same algorithms can learn.
30 年前，人们还没有充分理解这些相同的算法可以学到哪些非凡的东西。
I'll come back to that.
我会回到这个话题。
There've been a bunch of modern breakthroughs in what's called reinforcement learning, and reinforcement learning's main biology partner is dopamine.
在所谓的强化学习方面已经取得了一系列现代突破，而强化学习的主要生物学伙伴是多巴胺。
It's the first big hit.
这是第一个大热门。
Now, it's an area of science, and so what happens when you have a big finding that looks like it explains a lot of things, people come rushing in to sort of beat it up.
现在，这是一个科学领域，所以当你有一个看起来可以解释很多事情的重大发现时，会发生什么，人们会蜂拥而至，以某种方式击败它。
That's their job.
那是他们的工作。
That's their job, to hack away.
这就是他们的工作，破解。
Oh, is it really this?
哦，真的是这个吗？
Does it work the same in this context, in that context?
在这种情况下，在那种情况下，它的作用是否相同？
But I think the description of what dopamine does as a learning rule is pretty much true.
但我认为对多巴胺作为学习规则的作用的描述几乎是正确的。
Let me give you an example.
让我举个例子。
So psychologists, since the time of Pavlov, have understood what it means for an animal to generate a prediction and to compare it to an outcome.
因此，自巴甫洛夫时代以来，心理学家就已经了解动物产生预测并将其与结果进行比较意味着什么。
Okay?
好的？
The example is, so today is Wednesday.
例子是，今天是星期三。
And this is Rich Sutton's example.
这是里奇·萨顿的例子。
Suppose I make a prediction today that it's going to rain two inches on Saturday.
假设我今天预测周六会下两英寸的雨。
Okay?
好的？
Now we're going to fast-forward to tomorrow, and I'm going to update my prediction because I have new knowledge, and it's going to say, "It's going to rain 10 inches on Saturday." Okay.
现在我们要快进到明天，我要更新我的预测，因为我有了新的知识，它会说，“周六会下 10 英寸的雨。”好的。
There's been no reinforcing feedback.
没有强化反馈。
It hasn't rained yet because it's not Saturday yet.
还没下雨，因为还没到星期六。
I'm making a prediction about Saturday.
我正在对星期六做出预测。
But there's a difference between this expectation and that expectation.
但这个期望和那个期望之间是有区别的。
Those differences are encoded by dopamine.
这些差异是由多巴胺编码的。
It's called a temporal difference error, and dopamine seems to code that before you ever get to the terminal return.
这被称为时间差异错误，多巴胺似乎在你到达终端返回之前就对其进行了编码。
Imagine that you were playing a game, like checkers, and you make a move in the game, and you might make, I don't know, 40 moves before you win the game, and suppose winning the game is the reward.
想象一下，你正在玩一个游戏，比如西洋跳棋，你在游戏中走了一步，我不知道，你可能会走 40 步才能赢得游戏，并假设赢得游戏就是奖励。
Well, you may have some prediction.
好吧，你可能有一些预测。
Your brain makes a prediction when you play board position to board position that you're going to win the game, and that's a fluctuating quantity.
当你玩棋盘位置到棋盘位置时，你的大脑会预测你将赢得比赛，这是一个波动的量。
That's a different kind of learning rule.
这是一种不同的学习规则。
The kind of learning rule that psychologists talk about, that you think about in your everyday life, is, it's going to rain two inches today.
心理学家谈论的、你在日常生活中思考的那种学习规则是，今天会下两英寸的雨。
Okay, how much did it rain?
好吧，雨下多大了？
Okay, so that's a comparison between an outcome and your expectation.
好的，这就是结果与您的期望之间的比较。
What Rich Sutton and Andy Barto did was said, well, what you really want to do is you want to stick between there your next prediction.
里奇·萨顿（Rich Sutton）和安迪·巴托（Andy Barto）所做的就是说，好吧，你真正想做的是你想坚持下一个预测。
So you want successive predictions.
所以你想要连续的预测。
Okay?
好的？
And why is that a good model for animals?
为什么这是一个很好的动物模型？
Well, because if you're an animal and you're wandering around foraging, mainly you're not finding anything.
嗯，因为如果你是一只动物，你四处游荡寻找食物，那么你基本上什么也找不到。
You're going from position to position to position to position to position, but you're learning, and dopamine is encoding those signals.
你从一个位置到另一个位置，再到另一个位置，但你正在学习，多巴胺正在对这些信号进行编码。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm so glad you said the word foraging because I want to hover on the theme of foraging in the context of human decision-making and learning and behavior.
我很高兴你提到了“觅食”这个词，因为我想在人类决策、学习和行为的背景下讨论“觅食”这个主题。
So to stay with your description, Saturday rolls around.
因此，根据您的描述，周六即将到来。
Let's say it doesn't rain.
假设不下雨。
Let's say the person doesn't want it to rain.
假设这个人不希望下雨。
They're not a farmer.
他们不是农民。
They want to go to the beach on Saturday.
他们想星期六去海滩。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now we can talk about reward prediction error, right?
现在我们可以讨论奖励预测错误了，对吧？
The difference between the expectation, when it actually happens.
期望与实际发生之间的差异。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Okay, let me interrupt and correct that a bit.
好吧，让我打断一下并纠正一下。
The reward prediction error that people talk about dopamine representing is the prediction error that you get for every single step, whether or not you've received reward.
人们谈论的多巴胺代表的奖励预测误差是你每一步得到的预测误差，无论你是否收到奖励。
That's kind of diffused out in the psychology literature as you have an expectation and you have a reward.
这在心理学文献中有所体现，因为你有一个期望并且你有一个奖励。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
It may be positive, negative, or zero.
它可以是正数、负数或零。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
And what you do is you make an error there.
你所做的就是在那里犯错误。
That was understood in the '60s and '70s.
这是 20 世纪 60 年代和 70 年代人们所理解的。
It's called the Rescorla-Wagner rule, 1972.
这就是 1972 年的雷斯科拉-瓦格纳规则。
That's how the system should learn.
这就是系统应该如何学习的。
The fact is, though, that doesn't model reality very well.
但事实是，这并不能很好地模拟现实。
Reality doesn't give you feedback like that every time.
现实不会每次都给你这样的反馈。
Reality often gives you long stretches of nothing.
现实往往会给你很长一段时间的空虚。
The insight, I think, of Sutton and Barto in their algorithm was, well, a better algorithm for learning continuously is to take successive predictions and to say that's our learning rule.
我认为萨顿和巴托在他们的算法中的见解是，一个更好的连续学习算法是进行连续的预测，并说这是我们的学习规则。
Obviously, it's a learning rule with an outcome when you get an outcome, when it's not zero, but it's successive predictions.
显然，这是一个学习规则，当你得到一个结果时，它不为零，但它是连续的预测。
Why that should be such a deep idea is not clear to me.
我不清楚为什么这是一个如此深刻的想法。
What is clear to me from data is an algorithm based on that is installed in bee brains, sea slug brains, all the way up to human brains.
我从数据中清楚地看到，一种基于安装在蜜蜂大脑、海蛞蝓大脑乃至人类大脑中的算法。
There are these temporal difference reward prediction errors.
存在这些时间差异奖励预测错误。
And so I guess I'm sitting here trying to backwash the old version of it, which is people say in a kind of vernacular way, "Oh, it's the difference between your expectations and reward." Yes, when that happens, but most of the time that's not happening, in which case it's the ongoing difference between your expectation and your next expectation.
所以我想我坐在这里试图反驳旧版本，人们用一种白话的方式说，“哦，这就是你的期望和奖励之间的差异。”是的，当这种情况发生时，但大多数时候这种情况并没有发生，在这种情况下，这就是您的期望和下一个期望之间持续存在的差异。
So it's fluctuations in your expectation as you move through the world.
所以这是当你在世界上行走时你的期望的波动。
The DeepMind guys in London, who beat the world Go playing champion and made AlphaFold and won Nobel Prizes, and I mean, they're starting in 2015.
伦敦的 DeepMind 人员击败了世界围棋冠军，创造了 AlphaFold，并获得了诺贝尔奖，我的意思是，他们从 2015 年开始。
They just had this unbelievable series of hits.
他们刚刚取得了一系列令人难以置信的成功。
They use the Sutton and Barto algorithm.
他们使用萨顿和巴托算法。
They train those systems where people would make, the computer players, would make hundreds of board position changes before you ever got to the end of the game and update and learn based on that.
他们训练人们制作的系统，计算机玩家会在游戏结束之前进行数百次棋盘位置变化，并在此基础上进行更新和学习。
And they threw other tricks in, too.
他们还投入了其他技巧。
I'm not going to get technical about it.
我不会谈论它的技术。
So there's a difference.
所以是有区别的。
It's not just expectation and outcome.
这不仅仅是期望和结果。
It's expectation, next expectation, current outcome.
这是期望，下一个期望，当前的结果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
And that is what rolls through, and that is what we see installed in-- We have a paper this week coming out on honeybee brains, where you can show the same sorts of learning rules in honeybee brains.
这就是我们所看到的——本周我们将发表一篇关于蜜蜂大脑的论文，您可以在其中展示蜜蜂大脑中相同类型的学习规则。
In honeybee brains, it's probably octopamine, not dopamine.
在蜜蜂的大脑中，它可能是章鱼胺，而不是多巴胺。
But the other thing to say about dopamine is it's not just dopamine.
但关于多巴胺的另一件事是它不仅仅是多巴胺。
It's very clear that lots of neuromodulators-
很明显，很多神经调节剂——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure
当然可以
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
like that-
像那样-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure
当然可以
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
are fluctuating with learning and motivation, and it's probably the whole symphony of them that creates motivation states and things like that.
随着学习和动机的变化而波动，这可能是它们的整体交响乐创造了动机状态和类似的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break to acknowledge one of our sponsors, David.
我想稍微休息一下，向我们的赞助商之一大卫表示感谢。
David makes protein bars unlike any other.
大卫制作的蛋白质棒与众不同。
Their newest bar, the Bronze Bar, has 20 grams of protein, only 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar.
他们最新的 Bronze Bar 含有 20 克蛋白质，仅 150 卡路里，零克糖。
I have to say, these are the best-tasting protein bars I've ever had, and I've tried a lot of protein bars over the years.
我不得不说，这些是我吃过的味道最好的蛋白质棒，这些年来我尝试过很多蛋白质棒。
These new David bars have a marshmallow base, and they're covered in chocolate coating, and they're absolutely incredible.
这些新的大卫巧克力棒有一个棉花糖底座，上面覆盖着巧克力涂层，它们绝对令人难以置信。
I, of course, eat regular whole foods.
当然，我经常吃天然食品。
I eat meat, chicken, fish, eggs, fruits, vegetables, et cetera, but I also make it a point to eat one or two David bars per day as a snack, which makes it easy to hit my protein goal of one gram of protein per pound of body weight.
我吃肉、鸡肉、鱼、鸡蛋、水果、蔬菜等，但我也强调每天吃一两块大卫棒作为零食，这样很容易达到我每磅体重一克蛋白质的蛋白质目标。
And that allows me to take in the protein I need without consuming excess calories.
这使我能够摄入所需的蛋白质，而不会消耗过多的热量。
I love all the David Bronze Bar flavors, including Cookie Dough, Caramel Chocolate, Double Chocolate, Peanut Butter Chocolate.
我喜欢大卫青铜棒的所有口味，包括饼干面团、焦糖巧克力、双重巧克力、花生酱巧克力。
They all actually taste like candy bars.
它们实际上尝起来都像棒棒糖。
Again, they're amazing.
再说一次，他们太棒了。
But again, they have no sugar, and they have 20 grams of protein with just 150 calories.
但同样，它们不含糖，并且含有 20 克蛋白质，只有 150 卡路里热量。
If you'd like to try David, you can go to davidprotein.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 David，可以访问 david Protein.com/huberman。
Right now, David is offering a deal where if you buy four cartons, you get the fifth carton for free.
现在，大卫正在提供一项优惠，如果您购买四箱，您可以免费获得第五箱。
You can also find David on Amazon or in stores such as Target, Walmart, and Kroger.
您还可以在亚马逊或 Target、沃尔玛和克罗格等商店找到 David。
Again, to get the fifth carton for free, go to davidprotein.com/huberman.
同样，要免费获得第五箱，请访问 david Protein.com/huberman。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Joovv.
今天的节目也是Joovv给我们带来的。
Joovv makes medical-grade red light therapy devices.
Joovv 生产医疗级红光治疗设备。
Now, if there's one thing that I have consistently emphasized on this podcast, it is the incredible impact that light can have on our biology.
现在，如果我在这个播客中一直强调一件事，那就是光对我们的生物学产生的令人难以置信的影响。
Now, in addition to sunlight, red light and near-infrared light sources have been shown to have positive effects on improving numerous aspects of cellular and organ health, including faster muscle recovery, improved skin health and wound healing, improvements in acne, reduced pain and inflammation, even mitochondrial function, and improving vision itself.
现在，除了阳光之外，红光和近红外光源已被证明对改善细胞和器官健康的许多方面具有积极作用，包括更快的肌肉恢复、改善皮肤健康和伤口愈合、改善痤疮、减少疼痛和炎症，甚至线粒体功能，以及改善视力本身。
What sets Joovv lights apart and why they're my preferred red light therapy device is that they use clinically proven wavelengths, meaning specific wavelengths of red light and near-infrared light in combination to trigger the optimal cellular adaptations.
Joovv 灯的与众不同之处以及它们成为我首选红光治疗设备的原因在于它们使用经过临床验证的波长，这意味着特定波长的红光和近红外光相结合可以触发最佳的细胞适应。
Personally, I use the Joovv whole body panel about three to four times a week, and I use the Joovv handheld light both at home and when I travel.
就我个人而言，我每周大约使用 Joovv 全身面板三到四次，在家和旅行时我都会使用 Joovv 手持灯。
If you'd like to try Joovv, you can go to Joovv, spelled J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Joovv，可以访问 Joovv，拼写为 J-O-O-V-V，.com/huberman。
Joovv is offering an exclusive discount to all Huberman Lab listeners with up to $400 off Joovv products.
Joovv 为所有 Huberman Lab 听众提供独家折扣，Joovv 产品最高可享受 400 美元的折扣。
Again, that's Joovv, spelled J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman to get up to $400 off.
同样，这是 Joovv，拼写为 J-O-O-V-V，.com/huberman 最高可享受 400 美元折扣。
Okay, so I want to pin up a few rules so that people can move along this because I think most people, and including me, who learned about dopamine through neuroscience textbooks and lectures and papers and so forth, have been fed this overly simplistic model of expectation versus reward-
好的，所以我想制定一些规则，以便人们能够沿着这个方向前进，因为我认为大多数人，包括我在内，通过神经科学教科书、讲座和论文等了解多巴胺，已经被灌输了这种过于简单化的期望与奖励模型 -
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Outcome
结果
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or lack of reward.
或缺乏奖励。
Expectation and outcome.
期望和结果。
So just to remind people, dopamine reward prediction error.
所以只是提醒人们，多巴胺奖励预测是错误的。
The dopamine system loves novelty, especially positive novelty, right?
多巴胺系统喜欢新奇事物，尤其是积极的新奇事物，对吗？
You don't think you're going to have a great meal someplace that turns out to be spectacular, versus you're really expecting a place to be great.
你不会认为自己会在某个地方吃到一顿美餐，而结果却是很壮观，而不是你真的期待一个很棒的地方。
Your friend says it's terrific, and then it's okay.
你的朋友说这太棒了，然后就没关系了。
And dopamine codes for a lot of the expectation-reward relationship.
多巴胺编码了很多期望与奖励的关系。
What you're telling us is that in most scenarios, it's more interesting than that.
你告诉我们的是，在大多数情况下，它比这更有趣。
There's an updating of expectation before the final answer comes in, and dopamine is coding for that.
在最终答案出现之前，期望会发生更新，多巴胺正在为此进行编码。
I'd like to take this word "foraging" and apply it to a real-world scenario in humans, and then maybe we can use a combination of what's known, and you'll also tell us where it might be conjecture to kind of paint this picture in an intuitive way for people.
我想把“觅食”这个词应用到人类的现实世界场景中，然后也许我们可以结合已知的内容，你也会告诉我们在哪里可以推测出以直观的方式为人们描绘这幅图画。
I have a friend, and she's on the dating market now.
我有一个朋友，她现在正在约会市场上。
She will occasionally call me and ask me, "How do I decode this text message or this interaction?" I try and offer my support where I can.
她偶尔会打电话给我，问我：“我如何解码这条短信或这次互动？”我尽力提供力所能及的支持。
But the conversations often go something like this.
但谈话常常是这样的。
"Met so-and-so.
“遇见了某某。
They seem really great.
他们看起来真的很棒。
They seem really busy, and they set a plan for, like, a month from now.
他们看起来真的很忙，他们制定了一个月后的计划。
Is that weird?" I'm like, "All right.
这很奇怪吗？”我想，“好吧。
Well..." And I give my interpretation.
嗯……”我给出了我的解释。
I say, "Well, it's nice they've set a concrete plan," this and that, like, person's busy, this and that.
我说，“嗯，很高兴他们制定了一个具体的计划”，这个那个，就像，人们很忙，这个那个。
I also hear the, "Hey, met someone.
我还听到这样的话：“嘿，遇到了一个人。
They're really, really terrific." And I say, "Hey, listen, the last time you said this, like, two weeks later, it was how do I get out of seeing this person again?
他们真的、真的很棒。”我说：“嘿，听着，上次你这么说，大概两周后，我就想知道如何才能不再见到这个人？
So go slow, collect data slowly." And I'm not going to say I'm always right, but almost inevitably, it's three days later or three weeks later, it's like, "Oh my goodness, how do I get out of this thing?" Right?
所以慢慢来，慢慢收集数据。”我不会说我总是对的，但几乎不可避免的是，三天后或三周后，我会想，“天哪，我该如何摆脱这件事呢？”正确的？
So in some sense, it's what you're saying, right?
所以从某种意义上说，这就是你所说的，对吧？
There's a foraging for a healthy thing in life, a mate.
生活中需要寻找健康的东西，伴侣。
This has happened since the beginning of time, although not with apps.
这种情况从一开始就发生过，尽管不是应用程序。
There's updating of expectation based on experience and communication, and I think this is a really beautiful example of foraging in the context of updating expectations.
基于经验和沟通来更新期望，我认为这是在更新期望的背景下寻找食物的一个非常漂亮的例子。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And one could argue, what is the final reward?
有人可能会争论，最终的奖励是什么？
Is it marriage?
是结婚吗？
Is it whatever?
是随便吗？
Okay, that's subjective, but I think we all can intuitively understand this example, either by experience or by observation.
好吧，这是主观的，但我认为我们都可以通过经验或观察直观地理解这个例子。
So for someone, this person, who gets excited about someone they just met, right, then meets them and is increasingly excited But it's unclear where it's going to go.
所以对于某人来说，这个人，对他们刚认识的人感到兴奋，对吧，然后遇到他们并且越来越兴奋，但不清楚它会去哪里。
Then finds out, as life goes, that, oh, they're not perfect.
然后随着生活的发展，我们发现，哦，他们并不完美。
There's this thing.
有这个东西。
Can I live with that?
我可以忍受吗？
So thinking of this as like a sawtooth of dopamine-
所以把这想象成多巴胺的锯齿——
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
going through their system, is that statement accurate?
通过他们的系统，这个说法准确吗？
That dopamine and other neuromodulators are encoding the sort of expectation of success or lack of success without actually knowing what the final endpoint is?
多巴胺和其他神经调节剂在实际上不知道最终终点是什么的情况下编码了成功或失败的预期？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
It's exactly that, and that's the insight of Sutton and Barto.
正是如此，这就是萨顿和巴托的见解。
And when I first heard about this, I learned about it from Peter Dayan when I was a postdoc, and we both arrived at the Salk Institute together.
当我第一次听说这个时，我是从博士后 Peter Dayan 那里了解到的，我们一起到达了索尔克研究所。
Something about it captured me because all of a sudden it's not this-- Okay, you understand expectation and outcome.
它的某些东西吸引了我，因为突然间它不再是这样了——好吧，你明白期望和结果。
Businesses understand that.
企业明白这一点。
You're disappointed.
你很失望。
You expected to have a quarterly return of X, and you had Y.
您预计季度回报为 X，而您的季度回报为 Y。
That's less.
那就更少了。
You expected it to be low, it was more.
你预计它会很低，但它更多。
But that's really rare.
但这种情况确实很少见。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I studied hard, I wanted an A, I got an A minus.
我努力学习，我想要一个A，但我得到了A-。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yeah.
是的。
But the reality is, embedded in this little simple continuous learning update rule, it's called temporal difference reinforcement learning, is the fact that in the world, these expectations are going through their own trajectory.
但现实是，嵌入这个简单的连续学习更新规则，称为时间差异强化学习，事实是，在世界上，这些期望正在经历自己的轨迹。
All right?
好的？
And that's what dopamine is coding for.
这就是多巴胺编码的目的。
Any learning rule should code for the surprising outcome.
任何学习规则都应该编码令人惊讶的结果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
You have an expectation for an outcome, and either high or low of that.
你对结果有一个期望，无论是高还是低。
Every learning rule should do that, and the psychologists had that kind of figured out 40 years ago, 50 years ago.
每条学习规则都应该做到这一点，心理学家在 40 年前、50 年前就已经弄清楚了这一点。
But it doesn't quite work because it won't account for the way animals learn.
但它不太有效，因为它无法解释动物的学习方式。
It won't let you chain events.
它不会让你连锁事件。
So for example, if I show a light and train on a reward with an outcome, and I use the expectation outcome learning rule, it won't chain back to something that predicts a light.
例如，如果我显示一盏灯并根据结果进行奖励训练，并且我使用期望结果学习规则，它不会链接回预测灯的东西。
Suppose a sound predicts a light, and we know the light predicted the outcome.
假设声音预测光，并且我们知道光预测结果。
Now I ask the question, well, what happens to the sound?
现在我问一个问题，声音会发生什么变化？
Well, we know people learn, they'll associate the sound with the outcome.
嗯，我们知道人们在学习时，会将声音与结果联系起来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's Pavlovian.
这是巴甫洛夫式的。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yeah.
是的。
But those learning rules won't do that.
但那些学习规则并不能做到这一点。
They learn the wrong thing.
他们学错了东西。
They just do.
他们就是这么做的。
It's just not well appreciated.
只是没有得到很好的赞赏。
Now-
现在——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
back when we were trying to associate that learning rule with dopamine, we were mainly working on it in a kind of theoretical way.
当我们试图将学习规则与多巴胺联系起来时，我们主要以一种理论方式进行研究。
Like, if you had a signal, what would it need to look like?
就像，如果你有一个信号，它需要是什么样子？
Where might you find this in biology?
在生物学中你可以在哪里找到这个？
I remember our advisor, Terry Sejnowski, who's been on your show, I think he said something like, "There are these diffuse ascending systems.
我记得我们的顾问特里·塞诺夫斯基（Terry Sejnowski）参加过你们的节目，我想他说过这样的话：“存在这些分散的上升系统。
They deliver these transmitters.
他们提供这些发射器。
You guys go work on that."
你们去努力吧。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sounds like-
听起来像——
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
Terry.
特里.
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
And he just sort of-
而他只是有点——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Love Terry.
爱特里。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
And he just-
而他只是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And his episode was spectacularly received.
他的这一集受到了热烈的欢迎。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Oh, great.
哦，太好了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Well, it was the most open-
嗯，这是最开放的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
inviting environment, but of course, all the problems given out were impossible to solve, and I remember just thinking, "What?" But the first inroad was realizing that it matched what Sutton had written down not so many years before.
诱人的环境，但当然，所有提出的问题都是不可能解决的，我记得我只是在想，“什么？”但第一个进展是意识到它与萨顿几年前写下的内容相符。
Sutton got his PhD, I think, in '84.
我想萨顿在 84 年获得了博士学位。
I think he published the paper in '88.
我认为他在 88 年发表了这篇论文。
We were doing this in 1990, and we ran into a guy's data on dopamine, it's like looking at a bull from Schultz.
我们在 1990 年做这件事，我们遇到了一个人关于多巴胺的数据，就像看舒尔茨的公牛一样。
We didn't know him.
我们不认识他。
We ran, and we could explain every figure in every paper he published.
我们跑了，我们可以解释他发表的每篇论文中的每一个数字。
And we just thought, "Okay, that's not an accident." Okay, fast-forward.
我们只是想，“好吧，这不是意外。”好的，快进。
We're in generation three.
我们已经是第三代了。
Now we're going to come all the way forward.
现在我们要一路向前。
People doing very fancy, very detailed experiments in rodents, where you can control where dopamine neurons are going to fire, when they're going to fire.
人们在啮齿类动物身上做了非常奇特、非常详细的实验，你可以控制多巴胺神经元在哪里、何时放电。
You can control reward.
你可以控制奖励。
Okay, you can just control a lot of things.
好吧，你可以控制很多事情。
And so it's clearly more than that.
显然，事情的意义远不止于此。
It's that and some other stuff, but that central core, I don't see any good reason to throw away that little explanation there.
就是这个和其他一些东西，但是那个核心，我看不出有什么充分的理由放弃那个小小的解释。
Back in 1990, the complaint was, well, that's really cool.
早在 1990 年，人们就抱怨说，这真的很酷。
It matches these traces in an arcane journal of physiology paper.
它与一篇神秘的生理学杂志论文中的这些痕迹相匹配。
What good is that?
那有什么好处呢？
Reinforcement learning like that can't learn anything.
这样的强化学习什么也学不到。
The problem with that was, at the time, it was right.
问题是，在当时，这是对的。
Like there were no systems that had done anything amazing.
就像没有任何系统能够做出任何令人惊奇的事情一样。
Now they've done everything, and it's insane how good it was.
现在他们已经完成了一切，而且效果有多好，真是太疯狂了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're talking about the AI.
你说的是人工智能。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
That algorithm that I just described with my hands waving is the same thing that David Silver and the DeepMind guys did when they made the world champion Go playing program, and it beat the world champion, and that particular game had expert advice built into it.
我刚才挥手描述的算法与 David Silver 和 DeepMind 人员在制作世界冠军围棋程序时所做的事情是一样的，它击败了世界冠军，并且该特定游戏内置了专家建议。
Okay?
好的？
And they removed all that.
他们删除了所有这些。
And then they trained it from scratch.
然后他们从头开始训练它。
It's called AlphaGo Zero.
它被称为阿尔法狗零式。
And then that game was amazing.
然后那场比赛真是太棒了。
It's never been beaten.
它从来没有被打败过。
It basically beats the history of Go.
它基本上击败了围棋的历史。
And so as an example, it's such an amazing, that's a breakthrough.
举个例子，这是一个令人惊奇的突破。
Anybody that knows that side, now that's the AI side, that's the algorithm.
任何了解这方面的人，现在这就是人工智能方面，这就是算法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, that's the AI computational.
是的，这就是人工智能计算。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
But that same algorithm is installed in your head.
但同样的算法被安装在你的头脑中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
It's installed in the head of a songbird.
它安装在鸣禽的头部。
The interesting thing that's going on now is this kind of convergence, right?
现在发生的有趣的事情就是这种融合，对吗？
There are these little gremlins in your brain stem that run that algorithm, okay?
你的脑干中有这些运行该算法的小精灵，好吗？
They've now been externalized and put into a computer program that now does things that supersede us.
它们现在已经被外部化并放入计算机程序中，该程序现在可以取代我们做一些事情。
It's a little interesting convergence.
这是一个有点有趣的融合。
It's the only thing I know of that's sort of crawled out of your mind into a program, and now the program is doing things that we couldn't imagine before.
这是我所知道的唯一一件事，它是从你的头脑中爬出来进入一个程序的，现在这个程序正在做我们以前无法想象的事情。
And it matches the biology.
它符合生物学。
You can see this in creatures as old as honeybees and Drosophila and whatnot.
你可以在蜜蜂、果蝇等古老的生物中看到这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so a couple of things.
好的，有几件事。
One comment and a couple questions.
一条评论和几个问题。
First comment, I'm just going to say, so that you don't feel you have to.
第一条评论，我只是想说，这样你就不会觉得有必要这样做。
Everyone should know that when Reid says dopamine is responsible for X, Y, and Z, there are many other ...
大家应该知道，当里德说多巴胺负责X、Y、Z时，还有很多其他的……
chemicals in the brain likely involved as well.
大脑中的化学物质也可能参与其中。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Other chemicals, and dopamine has multiple functions.
其他化学物质，多巴胺具有多种功能。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I just want-
我只想——
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Like anything in biology.
就像生物学中的任何事情一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
We should just embed, that's up on the chalkboard now, so that if you want to mention it again, you can, but don't feel obligated to.
我们应该把它嵌入到黑板上，这样如果你想再次提及它，你可以，但不必觉得有义务这样做。
We're talking about dopamine through a narrow cone here, but certainly serotonin, acetylcholine, norepinephrine, peptides we haven't even discovered or understand yet are contributing.
我们在这里通过一个狭窄的锥体谈论多巴胺，但当然，血清素、乙酰胆碱、去甲肾上腺素以及我们尚未发现或了解的肽也发挥了作用。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Dopamine is clearly a major player.
多巴胺显然是一个主要参与者。
I want to step back to a human example, a non-AI example, with the understanding of what you just said, which is that the algorithms that AI is running are based on the same algorithms that neurons in our brain stem are using to deploy dopamine.
我想回到人类的例子，一个非人工智能的例子，理解你刚才所说的，即人工智能运行的算法基于我们脑干中的神经元用来部署多巴胺的相同算法。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Which I don't know of an example like that in the world.
我不知道世界上有这样的例子。
Do you?
你？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't.
我不知道。
I mean, I can-
我的意思是，我可以——
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Where we've discovered the nature of an algorithm, once we externalize it-
当我们发现算法的本质时，一旦我们将其具体化——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
we write code, and then it takes a few very special groups to all of a sudden have giant breakthroughs using that same algorithm.
我们编写代码，然后需要一些非常特殊的群体使用相同的算法突然取得巨大突破。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
And those breakthroughs are going to end up pumping information back into our head, and so it's an interesting recursion there.
这些突破最终将把信息重新输入我们的大脑，所以这是一个有趣的递归。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
I don't know what will come about.
我不知道会发生什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
The fact that we took biological learning rules and gave them to a computer, essentially, and the computer then can beat our own use of the biological learning rules, is pretty spectacular.
事实上，我们采用生物学习规则并将它们提供给计算机，本质上，计算机然后可以击败我们自己使用的生物学习规则，这是相当惊人的。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think it's a little scary, but I want to shelve that for-
我觉得这有点可怕，但我想把它搁置-
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
It is a little scary
有点吓人
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
later in the discussion.
稍后在讨论中。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I want to return to the dating example.
我想回到约会的例子。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
You're going to hang this dating example around my neck, aren't you?
你要把这个约会的例子挂在我的脖子上，不是吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I think that, and we can partner it with another example, which would be-
不，我认为，我们可以将其与另一个例子结合起来，那就是-
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Dating example is good.
约会的例子很好。
You go along in an interaction with somebody, you pick up new knowledge about them on Thursday.
周四，你与某人进行互动，你会学到关于他们的新知识。
You don't necessarily even see them.
你甚至不一定看到它们。
It changes your expectations of them.
它改变了你对他们的期望。
You pick up some new knowledge on Saturday.
周六你会学到一些新知识。
You run into a coworker of theirs.
你遇到了他们的同事。
They say, "Oh, I hear you're seeing so-and-so.
他们说：“哦，我听说你正在约会某某。
Did you know blah, blah, blah, blah, blah?" You get a new view of it.
你知道吗，巴拉，巴拉，巴拉，巴拉？”你会对它有一个新的看法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Changes your view.
改变你的看法。
So what I want to know is what is dopamine doing in the context of the constantly updated expectations?
那么我想知道的是，在不断更新的期望的背景下，多巴胺到底在做什么？
We know that dopamine is involved in motivation.
我们知道多巴胺与动机有关。
Are the changes in expectation modifying motivation to either move forward, become more pessimistic, more optimistic, or stay neutral?
预期的变化是否会改变前进的动机，变得更加悲观、更加乐观，还是保持中立？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
That's a great question.
这是一个很好的问题。
So expectations change.
所以期望会改变。
Those changes in expectation encoded by positive and negative fluctuations in dopamine.
这些期望的变化是由多巴胺的正负波动编码的。
Where does motivation come in?
动力来自哪里？
Todd Braver and John Cohen had an idea about that, and I think Matt Botvinick too, and that is those prediction errors are perfect signals for deciding how motivated you should be, how much should you want a thing, by measuring across those kinds of signals.
托德·布拉弗（Todd Braver）和约翰·科恩（John Cohen）对此有一个想法，我认为马特·博特维尼克（Matt Botvinick）也有这个想法，那就是这些预测错误是完美的信号，可以通过衡量这些信号来决定你应该有多大的积极性，你应该对一件东西有多少想要的程度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
And if you were doing an experiment, you were trying to look at dopamine-
如果你在做一个实验，你会尝试观察多巴胺——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
depending on the time scale you looked at-
取决于您查看的时间尺度 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
you might see little changes in it that correlated with fluctuating expectations, and you might see something as a kind of an envelope, a slower changing thing, which is the kind of experiment you might do in a experimental psychology setup, and that would look like it correlated with motivation, with all these little-
你可能会看到它与波动的期望相关的微小变化，你可能会看到某种东西作为一种信封，一个变化较慢的东西，这是你可能在实验心理学设置中做的那种实验，看起来它与动机相关，所有这些小-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
wandering things going on underneath.
下面发生了一些徘徊的事情。
That's the sense in which it could do both functions.
从这个意义上说，它可以同时完成这两种功能。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We are told that dopamine is what we're seeking as we go through a social media environment, or we go through a dating environment, or we go through a financial environment that we're investing or investing time in.
我们被告知，当我们经历社交媒体环境，或者我们经历约会环境，或者我们经历我们正在投资或投入时间的金融环境时，我们正在寻找多巴胺。
But as you mentioned, dopamine is not just at the finish line.
但正如你所提到的，多巴胺不仅仅存在于终点线。
We've known this for a while now.
我们已经知道这一点有一段时间了。
It's part of the neural circuitry algorithm that's driving us forward or causing us to pause.
它是神经回路算法的一部分，推动我们前进或导致我们暂停。
But is it fair to say that any system, whether it's a social media platform or it's another form of business, whether they consciously realize it or not, and they probably do, it's built on trying to constantly update our expectations so that we keep playing the game, so that we stay in the foraging mode.
但公平地说，任何系统，无论是社交媒体平台还是另一种形式的商业，无论他们是否有意识地意识到这一点，而且他们可能确实意识到了，它都是建立在不断更新我们的期望的基础上，以便我们继续玩游戏，以便我们保持在觅食模式。
Because if you think about it, it's an infinite scroll.
因为如果你仔细想想，它就是一个无限的卷轴。
There is no final outcome.
没有最终结果。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
If there was a final outcome, you wouldn't keep living.
如果有最终的结果，你就不会再活下去了。
You want that system to keep tracking, and once it gets to one place, you want it to have another place to which it could go.
您希望该系统继续跟踪，一旦到达一个地方，您希望它可以到达另一个地方。
Otherwise, you wouldn't live.
不然你就活不下去了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Probably one insight into why it's in every mobile creature's brain on the planet.
可能是对为什么它存在于地球上每个移动生物的大脑中的一种洞察。
So if any goal that you achieved, whatever it is, taking a drug, eating a food, getting a partner or whatnot, if that was enough for you right then, that's not the way your nervous system works.
因此，如果你实现了任何目标，无论是什么，服用药物、吃食物、寻找伴侣等等，如果这对你来说已经足够了，那么你的神经系统就不是这样运作的。
Your nervous system keeps pushing you forward.
你的神经系统不断推动你前进。
That's what you're working for.
这就是你工作的目的。
You're working for this push-forward drive.
你正在为这种前进的动力而努力。
The mapping that onto dopamine hits, it's not wrong, it's just blunt.
映射到多巴胺上，这并没有错，只是很生硬。
It's just a blunt way to say it.
这只是一种直言不讳的说法。
It's not wrong, but it is blunt.
这并没有错，但是太生硬了。
It's a blunt way to say it.
这是一种直言不讳的说法。
You move around with expectations before you get any sort of big unexpected hit.
在受到任何意外的重大打击之前，你会带着期望四处走动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is why I don't like the phrase or the words dopamine hits, because it implies it's like a reward that gets trickled into you.
这就是为什么我不喜欢“多巴胺命中”这个短语或单词，因为它意味着它就像是一种滴入你体内的奖励。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Well, but it is true, you get a hit.
嗯，但这是真的，你会受到打击。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
It is true that there's this unexpected reward-
确实有这种意想不到的收获——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
that your expectations, your series of expectations, did not anticipate, and that augments.
你的期望，你的一系列期望，没有预料到，并且增强了。
That is the learning rule.
这就是学习规则。
That's what we think the dopamine fluctuations are encoding.
这就是我们认为多巴胺波动所编码的内容。
And so it does both jobs.
所以它完成了这两项工作。
It lets you update and learn, and it codes for the kind of motivation you should have, and when you're surprised, those are extra hits.
它让你更新和学习，它编码了你应该拥有的动力，当你感到惊讶时，这些都是额外的打击。
So it's not wrong to say that, it's just incomplete
所以这样说并没有错，只是不完整而已
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm going to ask you to speculate a little bit here, but speculate within the context of what you know about dopamine, which is a lot.
我将要求你在这里进行一些推测，但要根据你对多巴胺的了解进行推测，多巴胺的了解很多。
Let's take any of the different examples that I threw out on the table for us, and we artificially ramp up levels of dopamine with, let's not say a drug of abuse like methamphetamine or something, but we throw a little bit of a dopaminergic stimulant into the picture.
让我们举出我为我们提出的任何不同的例子，我们人为地提高多巴胺的水平，更不用说像甲基苯丙胺之类的滥用药物，但我们在其中加入了一点多巴胺能兴奋剂。
Does that just raise the height of the sawtooth?
这只是增加了锯齿的高度吗？
Does it change any of this?
它会改变这一切吗？
For instance, if this person who goes out on a date, on the second or third date, they go to something, like maybe a show that's spectacularly good, okay?
例如，如果这个人出去约会，在第二次或第三次约会时，他们会去看一些东西，比如一场非常精彩的表演，好吗？
How does that change the dynamics when now there's an association with this person or an event, but let's say that they're flooded with dopamine.
当现在与这个人或某个事件有联系时，这会如何改变动态，但假设他们充满了多巴胺。
Let's take a drug out of the picture.
让我们把毒品从图片中剔除。
The experience generated more dopamine.
这种经历产生了更多的多巴胺。
Does it shape their expectation and motivation around that person?
这是否会影响他们对该人的期望和动机？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
If you raise expectations, and these are coded by changes in dopamine, then in fact, that's sort of a tonic question.
如果你提高期望，而这些期望是由多巴胺的变化编码的，那么事实上，这就是一个补品问题。
That's sort of a tonic, phasic question.
这是一个主调性的、阶段性的问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can you explain tonic?
你能解释一下补品吗？
Most people are going to think gin and tonic.
大多数人都会想到杜松子酒和补品。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
I will.
我会的。
So slower changing, okay?
改变得慢一些，好吗？
So I see a show, it makes me very excited.
所以我看到一个演出，这让我非常兴奋。
The well fills up with a little more water, okay?
井里加满一点水，好吗？
And it's sitting here.
它就坐在这里。
So now the little hits are on top of that.
所以现在最重要的是小热门。
Or I see something that depletes it.
或者我看到一些东西会耗尽它。
I take a drug, and some drugs deplete dopamine.
我服用药物，有些药物会消耗多巴胺。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Or they went to a play and it sucked.
或者他们去看一场演出，但演出很糟糕。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It's disappointing or it's sad.
这是令人失望的，或者是悲伤的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He's got bad taste.
他的品味很差。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
And it just runs in your mind.
它只是在你的脑海中运行。
And so that can lower the levels, and that changes the way in which the fluctuations have an impact on learning.
这样可以降低水平，从而改变波动对学习的影响方式。
Okay?
好的？
Parkinson's disease is a condition where by the time you show up with symptoms in the doctor's office, you've lost 70% to 75% of your dopamine neurons in your brain stem.
帕金森病是一种当您在医生办公室出现症状时，您的脑干中 70% 至 75% 的多巴胺神经元已经丧失的疾病。
Those are the only source of dopamine in your brain except for a tiny pathway in your hypothalamus and pituitary axis.
除了下丘脑和垂体轴中的一条微小通路之外，这些是大脑中多巴胺的唯一来源。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A couple in the retina.
视网膜上有一对。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Well, there's...
嗯，有...
Sorry.
抱歉。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The retinal biologist in me.
我心中的视网膜生物学家。
They're doing things totally unrelated to any of this.
他们正在做与这一切完全无关的事情。
They're controlling adaptational light levels.
他们正在控制适应性光照水平。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yeah, light level adaptations, and certainly in goldfish.
是的，光水平适应，当然是金鱼。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yeah, those are actually very interesting.
是的，这些实际上非常有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We'll get back to those.
我们会回到这些。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
I won't talk about them.
我不会谈论他们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you had the dopaminergic brain stem neurons that degenerate in Parkinson's.
因此，多巴胺能脑干神经元在帕金森病中退化。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
By the time you're feeling so stiff, starting to have tremors, all the parts, the flat facey, flat affect, and somebody gets you to a doctor, you're in the 70% to 75% loss, okay?
当你感觉如此僵硬，开始颤抖，所有部位，面部表情扁平，情绪扁平，有人带你去看医生时，你就损失了 70% 到 75%，好吗？
So what does that mean?
那么这意味着什么呢？
Now, all of a sudden, these, and dopamine neurons in your brain stem, or maybe 80,000 neurons per side, 160,000 neurons, that's like nothing.
现在，突然间，这些神经元，以及脑干中的多巴胺神经元，或者每侧可能有 80,000 个神经元，160,000 个神经元，这就像什么都没有一样。
They send dopamine-delivering wires, biological wires, throughout your entire brain and down your spinal cord, making hundreds of millions of connections.
它们将多巴胺传递线（生物线）发送到整个大脑并向下延伸到脊髓，形成数亿个连接。
But now you've shrunk those down.
但现在你已经缩小了这些范围。
And so the one thing that happens is it's very noisy.
所以发生的一件事是非常吵闹。
There's not so many neurons to cover, so there's no smooth changes in it, and the noise floor relative to what you could generate as a signal gets really, really high.
没有那么多神经元需要覆盖，因此它没有平滑的变化，并且相对于信号生成的噪声基底变得非常非常高。
Well, one of the things that we think dopamine is involved in, in terms of information processing, is valuing the world.
嗯，我们认为多巴胺在信息处理方面所涉及的事情之一就是评估世界。
Computing, if you will, the value of taking this action or that action, the value of grabbing this and putting it in my mouth and drinking water, et cetera.
如果你愿意的话，计算采取这个或那个行动的价值，抓住这个并将其放入我的嘴里喝水的价值，等等。
Okay.
好的。
And the Parkinson's state is sort of like a flat value function.
帕金森状态有点像平坦的价值函数。
You can't really see differential value in things.
你无法真正看到事物的差异价值。
As you look around the world, you expect this system to fluctuate for you, to tell you, if I were to do this stuff, or if I were to do that stuff, or if I were to look at that, et cetera, it gives you a fluctuation, but you can't read it.
当你环顾世界时，你期望这个系统为你波动，告诉你，如果我要做这个事情，或者如果我要做那个事情，或者如果我要看看那个，等等，它会给你一个波动，但你无法读取它。
The downstream-
下游——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's too noisy.
太吵了。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
It's too noisy.
太吵了。
You can't read it.
你无法阅读它。
The downstream system just has to act as it did before.
下游系统只需像以前一样运行即可。
It says, "Oh, everything's of equal value.
它说：“哦，一切都是同等价值的。
Just stay put."
就呆在原地吧。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
So I've always thought about Parkinson's as an active freezing disease.
所以我一直认为帕金森症是一种活动性冻结性疾病。
The nervous system is doing exactly what it would do if, because it takes energy to transition from where you are to doing the next thing.
神经系统正在做它应该做的事情，因为它需要能量才能从你现在的位置过渡到做下一件事。
Why do that if there's nothing more valuable there?
如果没有什么更有价值的东西，为什么还要这么做呢？
This comes back to the idea of it pushing you through the world.
这又回到了它推动你穿越世界的想法。
It doesn't habituate because it has to keep your behavior going, or else you're going to die.
它不会习惯，因为它必须让你的行为持续下去，否则你就会死。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't think it's a coincidence, in fact, I know it's not, that dopamine is involved in learning, motivation, feelings, and movement, among a few other more minor roles.
我不认为这是巧合，事实上，我知道这不是巧合，多巴胺参与学习、动机、感觉和运动，以及其他一些更次要的作用。
Everything about physical movement is intuitive to us.
关于身体运动的一切对我们来说都是直观的。
You move forward, you move back, you move side to side, you stay put.
你向前移动，你向后移动，你从一边移动到另一边，你保持原地不动。
Okay?
好的？
Like movement.
就像运动一样。
The idea that levels of dopamine in a moment, and what you're referring to as the tonic kind of baseline, what I call baseline levels of dopamine-
瞬间多巴胺水平的想法，以及你所说的补品基线，我称之为多巴胺基线水平-
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as opposed to spikes on top of that, predict whether or not you'll move forward, how much resistance there is to moving forward, these kinds of things.
与最重要的峰值相反，预测你是否会继续前进，前进的阻力有多大，诸如此类的事情。
But I think for a lot of people, it might be useful to think about dopamine in the context of thought movement, right?
但我认为对于很多人来说，在思想运动的背景下思考多巴胺可能是有用的，对吗？
And motivation is sort of a version of forward movement.
动机是一种前进的形式。
If I think about am I motivated to do something, I no longer like the word motivated, I decided.
如果我想到我是否有动力去做某事，我决定不再喜欢“动力”这个词。
I like the word a sense of urgency.
我喜欢紧迫感这个词。
You could have a low level of urgency, moderate, or high level of urgency.
您的紧急程度可以是低紧急程度、中等紧急程度或高紧急程度。
Urgency I define as sort of a persistent, resilient motivation, right?
我将紧迫感定义为一种持久的、有弹性的动机，对吗？
And the reason I prefer urgency to motivation is that a sense of urgency is more intuitive, I think, to most people.
与激励相比，我更喜欢紧迫感的原因是，我认为对于大多数人来说，紧迫感更为直观。
We kind of know when we feel we have to do something.
当我们觉得必须做某事时，我们就知道了。
We really want to do it, or we don't really want to do it, or we're procrastinating.
我们真的很想做，或者我们真的不想做，或者我们在拖延。
Whereas motivation is this just kind of catchall term for how motivated are you, and anything like that.
而动机只是一个笼统的术语，指的是你的动机如何，以及类似的东西。
Intrinsic motivation, extrinsic motivation.
内在动机、外在动机。
So when I think about a sense of urgency I think about a sense of a need and readiness to move the body and/or move thoughts in a particular direction.
因此，当我想到紧迫感时，我想到的是一种需要和准备好将身体和/或思想朝特定方向移动的感觉。
Do we think that dopamine is involved in moving thoughts and decision-making in a particular direction?
我们是否认为多巴胺参与了向特定方向推动思想和决策？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
We exactly think that.
我们确实是这么认为的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Thank you.
谢谢。
I wasn't asking you to validate my non-theory theory.
我并不是要你验证我的非理论理论。
I think that dopamine is thrown around so much nowadays that we don't even really understand what motivation is, let alone how dopamine will be playing this key role.
我认为现在多巴胺被广泛使用，以至于我们甚至不真正理解动机是什么，更不用说多巴胺将如何发挥这一关键作用。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
It's very clear dopamine and the other neuromodulators are involved in stabilizing and sustaining brain states.
很明显，多巴胺和其他神经调节剂参与稳定和维持大脑状态。
Okay?
好的？
That's why they're thought to be involved in seizures, right?
这就是为什么他们被认为与癫痫发作有关，对吗？
One thing you have to do with a brain state is kind of hold onto it a bit.
你必须对大脑状态做的一件事就是稍微保持住它。
It's got to have a dwell time, right?
总得有个停留时间吧？
Let's call that a thought.
让我们称之为一个想法。
Boom.
繁荣。
Okay?
好的？
And then it goes forward or changes, and then it may come back to that.
然后它会前进或改变，然后可能会回到原来的状态。
Okay, so thinking and sequencing through what you would call thoughts is something that these systems are clearly intimately related to, and there are a lot of great groups now that are exploring this in mice models and in theoretical models as well.
好吧，通过你所谓的思想进行思考和排序显然与这些系统密切相关，现在有很多伟大的团队正在小鼠模型和理论模型中探索这一点。
So I think you tied the words together pretty well.
所以我认为你把这些词很好地结合在一起。
In an animal that has to keep moving to stay alive, and that's all animals, it has to know how valuable is it, how motivated should I be, how much should I want a thing, right?
对于必须不断移动才能生存的动物来说，这就是所有动物，它必须知道它有多么有价值，我应该有多大的动力，我应该多么想要一个东西，对吗？
The calculations that we think the algorithms are affecting in your brain are exactly those.
我们认为算法在你大脑中影响的计算正是这些。
And so we can have these conversations at the level of these psychology words, which are interesting and pertinent to the way looking at an animal behave, but now we're starting to pull it apart at the level of what is this computing, how fast is it computing it, how did it update it, and now we can build artificial systems based on that.
因此，我们可以在这些心理学词汇的层面上进行这些对话，这些词汇很有趣，并且与观察动物行为的方式相关，但现在我们开始在这个计算是什么、它的计算速度有多快、它是如何更新它的层面上将其分解，现在我们可以基于此构建人工系统。
There was a paper in 2004 by David Reddish talking about addiction as a computational disease gone awry, where you keep feeding a system a level of dopamine by putting a drug in that blocks its reuptake that it can't anticipate right.
2004 年，大卫·雷迪什 (David Reddish) 发表了一篇论文，将成瘾视为一种出了问题的计算疾病，即通过添加一种药物来阻止系统无法正确预测的再摄取，从而持续向系统提供一定水平的多巴胺。
And so it keeps chasing that, and it never gets there.
所以它一直在追逐那个目标，但它永远不会到达那里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When people have ADHD, even low-level ADHD, or they take a drug that increases dopamine, do you think that it makes more things in the world sticky?
当人们患有注意力缺陷多动症，甚至是低度注意力缺陷多动症，或者他们服用增加多巴胺的药物时，你认为这会让世界上更多的东西变得粘稠吗？
Meaning mentally sticky, like we naturally just will latch on to more things when our levels of dopamine are elevated.
这意味着精神上的粘性，就像当我们的多巴胺水平升高时，我们自然会抓住更多的东西。
We'll forage more randomly, or do we forage more narrowly?
我们会更随机地寻找食物，还是更狭窄地寻找食物？
Because the whole notion of ADHD is the whole like, "Oh, squirrel," that's the kind of generic example, is that someone with ADHD, the theory is that their dopaminergic systems are dysregulated.
因为注意力缺陷多动症的整个概念就是“哦，松鼠”，这是一种通用的例子，患有注意力缺陷多动症的人，理论是他们的多巴胺能系统失调。
These drugs, almost all of them, right, whether or not it's Ritalin or Adderall or these other drugs, they raise levels of dopamine and norepinephrine-
这些药物，几乎所有，对吧，无论是利他林、阿得拉还是其他药物，它们都会提高多巴胺和去甲肾上腺素的水平——
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Oh, yes
哦，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and somehow put people into a more narrow trench of focus or give them a little bit more selectivity in terms of what paths they decide to forage.
并以某种方式让人们进入更狭窄的关注范围，或者在他们决定寻找的路径方面给予他们更多的选择性。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yeah, I suspect, if you made me guess, that it's stabilizing brain states and thought sequences in a way that's narrow and it doesn't divert.
是的，我怀疑，如果你让我猜的话，它正在以一种狭窄且不会转移的方式稳定大脑状态和思维序列。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Does that surprise you, that-
这让你感到惊讶吗——
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
increasing dopamine would do that?
增加多巴胺会起到这样的作用吗？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
No, bees do this.
不，蜜蜂会这样做。
Okay, so when you're a forager bee, you come back and you do a little dance in the hive, and it tells the hive, other foragers, where to go find the nectar source.
好吧，当你是一只采集蜜蜂时，你回来后在蜂巢里跳一段小舞，它告诉蜂巢和其他采集蜜蜂去哪里寻找花蜜源。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Okay, and it's a whole language.
好吧，这是一门完整的语言。
People have worked that out.
人们已经解决了这个问题。
It tells you fly this far with the sun here, and there's a polarization.
它告诉你在太阳的照射下飞了这么远，并且存在偏振。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's an amazing phenomenon.
这是一个令人惊奇的现象。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That the bees go back, and they literally do this dance, the waggle dance.
蜜蜂回去后，它们确实会跳这种舞蹈，摇摆舞。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
And they feel the waggle dance on the bee, and by feeling it, they know where to go.
他们感觉到蜜蜂的摇摆舞，通过感觉，他们知道要去哪里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wild.
狂野。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Well, it's a language.
嗯，这是一种语言。
It's been decoded-
已经破译了——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it's very cool
是的，这很酷
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
to some degree.
在某种程度上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
When you look at bees, I know this because I've been working with a bee guy, Brian Smith, at Arizona State University for the last few years.
当你观察蜜蜂时，我知道这一点，因为过去几年我一直与亚利桑那州立大学的蜜蜂专家布莱恩·史密斯一起工作。
I've known him my whole career, but now has methodology that lets him make measurements of dopamine and serotonin and norepinephrine in bees while they do odor learning.
我在整个职业生涯中都认识他，但现在有了方法可以让他在蜜蜂学习气味时测量多巴胺、血清素和去甲肾上腺素。
And he has bees on an axis, okay?
他的轴上有蜜蜂，好吗？
Way over here are the ADD bees, let's call them, and way over here are the concentration bees.
这里是 ADD 蜂，我们称之为注意力集中蜂。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Okay?
好吧？
And it relates to a chemical that's related to dopamine called octopamine, but it's a ratio of octopamine to tyramine.
它涉及一种与多巴胺有关的化学物质，称为章鱼胺，但它是章鱼胺与酪胺的比率。
It's like dopamine and serotonin, if you were talking about primates.
如果你谈论的是灵长类动物，它就像多巴胺和血清素。
The ADD bees, they feel the waggle dance, and they start running for the nectar, and then they get distracted.
ADD 蜜蜂，它们感觉到摇摆舞，它们开始奔跑寻找花蜜，然后它们就分心了。
They're the four-year-old.
他们是四岁的孩子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, there are a lot of adults like that nowadays, too.
嗯，现在也有很多这样的成年人。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yes.
是的。
Of course, what they do by being distracted is they explore more.
当然，他们通过分心所做的就是探索更多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Okay?
好吧？
And then the ones on the far end over here, they fly right to the nectar source.
然后远处的那些，它们直接飞向花蜜源。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Okay.
好的。
So you need both.
所以你两者都需要。
That's called exploitation.
这就是所谓的剥削。
This one's exploiting where the nectar source is.
这个正在开发花蜜来源的地方。
It's going to get it.
它会得到它。
It's going to bring it back to the hive.
它会把它带回蜂巢。
And the sort of ADD guys are the explorers.
探险家就是ADD这类人。
They're looking for new information-
他们正在寻找新的信息——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
new nectar sources, et cetera.
新的花蜜来源等等。
Well, your mind, as blunt as that is, your mind plays this dichotomy.
好吧，尽管你的头脑很直率，但你的头脑却在玩这种二分法。
From-
从-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In the same individual, you think that we have this ADHD-like mode and a-
在同一个人中，你认为我们有这种类似注意力缺陷多动症的模式，并且-
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
more focused mode.
更专注的模式。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
You've got multiple bees inside your head.
你的脑子里有很多只蜜蜂。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
One of them's making you into the explorer, and that's really, really valuable sometimes.
其中之一就是让你成为探索者，有时这真的非常有价值。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Okay?
好吧？
In companies, they keep these people around.
在公司里，他们留住这些人。
These are the lateral thinkers, and you just have to feed them enough.
这些都是横向思考者，你只需给他们提供足够的食物即可。
And then you have the people that can really follow instructions and follow the best course of action and whatnot, and you need all that.
然后你拥有能够真正遵循指示并遵循最佳行动方案等的人员，而你需要这一切。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
You need all that.
你需要这一切。
And this distribution of abilities It's built into all of us, but it's different across us.
这种能力的分布是我们所有人都固有的，但我们之间的情况又有所不同。
If I was looking at an oak leaf, and I told you, "What about this little wiggle?" It's the wiggle in our software design for motivation and learning.
如果我看着一片橡树叶，我告诉你：“这个小小的摆动怎么样？”这是我们软件设计中为了激励和学习而做出的调整。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
It's very effective to sometimes be the explorer, and other times you have to be able to follow the chain of, this is going to lead you to the thing that you want.
有时成为探索者是非常有效的，而有时你必须能够遵循这条链条，这将引导你到达你想要的东西。
Stay on course.
坚持路线。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
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如果您是“Huberman Lab”播客的常客，您无疑听过我谈论过维生素矿物质益生菌饮料 AG1。
And if you've been on the fence about it, now's an awesome time to give it a try.
如果您一直对此持观望态度，那么现在正是尝试的好时机。
For the next few weeks, AG1 is giving away a full supplement package with your first subscription to AG1.
在接下来的几周内，AG1 将在您首次订阅 AG1 时赠送完整的补充包。
They're giving away a free bottle of vitamin D3K2, a bottle of omega-3 fish oil capsules, and a sample pack of the new sleep formula, AGZ, which, by the way, is now the only sleep supplement I take.
他们免费赠送一瓶维生素 D3K2、一瓶 omega-3 鱼油胶囊和新睡眠配方 AGZ 样品包，顺便说一下，它是我现在唯一服用的睡眠补充剂。
It's fantastic.
太棒了。
My sleep on AGZ is out of this world good.
我在 AGZ 的睡眠质量非常好。
AGZ is a drink, so it eliminates the need to take a lot of pills.
AGZ 是一种饮料，因此无需服用大量药片。
It tastes great, and like I said, it has me sleeping incredibly well, waking up more refreshed than ever.
它味道好极了，就像我说的，它让我睡得非常好，醒来时比以往任何时候都精神焕发。
I absolutely love it.
我非常喜欢它。
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再次强调，这是限时优惠，因此请务必立即访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 开始。
What you're describing is a sort of ADHD-like mode inside of all of us, as well as a highly focused mode inside all of us.
你所描述的是我们所有人内心的一种类似多动症的模式，以及我们所有人内心的高度专注的模式。
You're also, I think I hear you correctly in thinking that you're also describing the fact that some people are very strongly ADHD mode, and other people are very strongly focused.
我想我没听错，你也描述了这样一个事实：有些人患有非常严重的多动症模式，而另一些人则非常专注。
They're very linear.
它们非常线性。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Or task-based.
或者基于任务。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Task-based.
基于任务。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
They can really form a task, hold it in mind.
他们确实可以形成一项任务，并将其牢记在心。
A task stays there.
任务留在那里。
Lots of athletes are that way.
很多运动员都是这样。
They set a goal, and they set multiple scales of goals.
他们设定了一个目标，并且设定了多个目标。
They set some goal, this is where I want to be in two years, okay?
他们设定了一些目标，这就是我两年后想要达到的目标，好吗？
To get there, I'm going to have to crawl through hell to get there in two years, and I have to do these things.
为了到达那里，我必须在两年内爬过地狱才能到达那里，而且我必须做这些事情。
And I'm going to wake up again tomorrow morning and again and again and again.
明天早上我会再次醒来，一次又一次。
And these goals have to be reconstituted and pursued.
这些目标必须重新制定和追求。
If you wanted to go play in the NBA and then all of a sudden, six months into that, you decide you want to go do ice hockey, well, that's a problem.
如果你想去 NBA 打球，然后突然，六个月后，你决定去打冰球，那么，这是一个问题。
That's a person who can't focus down.
那是一个无法集中注意力的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We all know these people.
我们都认识这些人。
One question I have, and we can only speculate here, is there's a lot of ideas now that social media, but when I say social media, I don't want to knock it.
我有一个问题，我们只能在这里推测，那就是现在社交媒体有很多想法，但当我说社交媒体时，我不想否定它。
I teach and learn on social media.
我在社交媒体上教学和学习。
What I'm mainly thinking about is very short-form video.
我主要考虑的是非常短的视频。
There's this idea out there that it's, quote-unquote, "giving everybody ADHD." Now, I don't actually think that's true, but I could imagine that if we have this continuum of honeybee-like modes in our brains, that if we repeatedly engage in a kind of rapid turnover of stimuli, like you get when you scroll a TikTok or a YouTube Shorts or something like that, there's a very frequent updating of lots of different contexts and information, that those circuits might get stronger.
有这样一种想法，毫不夸张地说，“让每个人都患有注意力缺陷多动症”。现在，我实际上并不认为这是真的，但我可以想象，如果我们的大脑中有这种连续的类似蜜蜂的模式，如果我们反复进行一种快速周转的刺激，就像你滚动 TikTok 或 YouTube Shorts 或类似的东西时所得到的那样，就会非常频繁地更新许多不同的上下文和信息，这些电路可能会变得更强。
And that the circuits that allow you to move from node to node, en route to a goal, updating as necessary, understanding and integrating expectations and rewards and failures, and all the above, right?
这些电路可以让你从一个节点移动到另一个节点，在实现目标的途中，根据需要进行更新，理解并整合期望、奖励和失败，以及所有上述，对吗？
The athlete example, the academic example, any life, navigating relation, all the stuff that we think of as building a solid life, you could imagine that some of that rapid updating and foraging could undermine the circuitry.
运动员的例子，学术的例子，任何生活，导航关系，所有我们认为构建稳固生活的东西，你可以想象其中一些快速更新和搜寻可能会破坏电路。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yeah, you build your ADHD muscle.
是的，你可以锻炼你的多动症肌肉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is there any evidence, maybe from related or other experiments entirely, that show that if you give people a task where they have to update very quickly, that you shift the sort of state of the brain toward seeking that more and doing that more easily than you do kind of long haul, distant reward type stuff?
是否有任何证据（也许完全来自相关实验或其他实验）表明，如果你给人们一项必须非常快速地更新的任务，你就会将大脑的状态转变为寻求更多，并且比你做那种长期、遥远的奖励类型的事情更容易做到这一点？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
I don't know the answer to that in people, but I do know about training artificial systems to do it, and you have to be very careful to control the mix so that it doesn't over-train on one of these two possibilities.
我不知道人们的答案，但我确实知道如何训练人工系统来做到这一点，并且你必须非常小心地控制混合，以免它对这两种可能性之一进行过度训练。
If we're going to divide these two possibilities, chase a goal, chase everything that flies along, right?
如果我们要划分这两种可能性，追逐一个目标，追逐一切飞过的东西，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
And you don't want to do either one of those things.
而你不想做其中任何一件事情。
You have to balance that, and sometimes you have to impose constraints to make that happen in an artificial network.
你必须平衡这一点，有时你必须施加限制才能在人工网络中实现这一点。
It's a more complicated problem in people.
对于人们来说，这是一个更复杂的问题。
I can imagine, I know lots of settings where being ADD is an absolute requirement.
我可以想象，我知道很多环境中 ADD 是绝对要求的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can you give me a few examples?
你能举几个例子吗？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Combat.
战斗。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Combat, rapid decision-making, kind of the fighter pilot, situational knowledge.
战斗、快速决策、战斗机飞行员的风格、情境知识。
Now, what do they do to prepare for that?
现在，他们为此做了什么准备？
By the way, my dad was a captain in the Navy.
顺便说一句，我父亲是海军上尉。
I have lots of combat examples in my head.
我脑子里有很多战斗例子。
Well, they practice.
嗯，他们练习。
They practice being surprised.
他们练习感到惊讶。
They practice being hungry, and they put themselves under stress and all so that when that happens, they don't have to run through every possibility, and they're very effective.
他们练习饥饿，让自己处于压力之下，这样当这种情况发生时，他们就不必尝试所有的可能性，而且他们非常有效。
But that requires training.
但这需要培训。
That requires an enormous amount of mental training.
这需要大量的心理训练。
It's all about the mental game.
这都是关于心理游戏的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a good example.
这是一个很好的例子。
We've had a couple of experts in ADHD on here, and all of them have agreed that children and adults with ADHD, mild or severe, can focus very intensely on things they really enjoy and are interested in.
我们这里有几位多动症专家，他们都同意患有多动症的儿童和成人，无论是轻度还是重度，都可以非常专注于他们真正喜欢和感兴趣的事情。
It's not a lack of ability to focus, it's that there's a lot of choppy terrain to get into that narrow mode of focus, unless it's something they love.
这并不是缺乏集中注意力的能力，而是有很多不稳定的地形可以进入狭窄的焦点模式，除非这是他们喜欢的东西。
You give a kid with ADHD a video game they love, they'll drop right in as if it was the most focused you've ever seen them.
你给患有多动症的孩子一个他们喜欢的视频游戏，他们会立刻投入其中，就好像这是你见过的最专注的游戏一样。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Anytime you have to do rapid-fire decision-making, I think you would want somebody who is able to at least train up To that level there.
任何时候你必须做出快速决策，我认为你会想要一个至少能够训练到那个水平的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you worry about the overexposure to frequent media content?
您是否担心过度接触频繁的媒体内容？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yeah, the short media.
是的，短媒体。
I have a lot of kids, and so like every parent, my main nemesis is screen time.
我有很多孩子，所以像每个父母一样，我的主要敌人是屏幕时间。
Okay?
好的？
I'm trying to figure out how to monitor it, measure it, restrict it, and basically my kids are smarter than me, and they're more nimble and they move faster than I can .
我正在尝试找出如何监控它、衡量它、限制它，基本上我的孩子比我更聪明，他们比我更灵活，移动得更快。
So it's a battle I'm losing.
所以这是一场我正在输掉的战斗。
So I've decided that the only way I can combat it is to lose it, but lose it a little more effectively toward my side.
所以我决定，对抗它的唯一方法就是失去它，但更有效地向我这边失去它。
But I have to admit, when I see YouTube Shorts-
但我不得不承认，当我看到 YouTube Shorts 时——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
these little, like, "Oh, look at this person.
这些小东西就像，“哦，看看这个人。
He built a house out of Jell-O and it's falling over now.
他用果冻盖了一座房子，但现在它倒塌了。
Okay, look at this other person.
好吧，看看另一个人。
There's a parakeet." It's mind-numbing to me, right?
有一只鹦鹉。”这对我来说很令人麻木，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, there isn't a lot of long-term learning.
嗯，没有太多的长期学习。
One of the things that I define learning by is, useful learning is, did I reflect on it again at a point later in time?
我对学习的定义之一是，有用的学习是，我是否在稍后的某个时间点再次反思过它？
The other day, I was on social media and I actually saw a clip.
有一天，我在社交媒体上看到了一个剪辑。
It was on a friend of mine who has a podcast, Steven Bartlett, and he was interviewing a guest, and this gets right to the heart of this conversation.
这是我的一个朋友史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）的播客，他正在采访一位客人，这正是这次谈话的核心。
A lot of stuff flies by, a lot of wisdom-type advice, health advice, it's a constant barrage.
很多东西一闪而过，很多智慧型的建议、健康建议，就是源源不断的弹幕。
But this one stuck with me.
但这件事一直困扰着我。
It's interesting.
这很有趣。
He asked the guy, "What's the meaning of life?" People ask this on podcasts.
他问那人：“生命的意义是什么？”人们在播客上问这个问题。
I won't ask you that today.
今天我不会问你这个。
That's a Lex Fridman question.
这是莱克斯·弗里德曼的问题。
When you go on Lex's podcast, you can answer it to him, but I won't ask you that.
当你上莱克斯的播客时，你可以回答他，但我不会问你这个。
But Steven asked this guy, I forget who it was, so forgive me, "What do you think the point of life is?" And the guy said, "It's to learn to enjoy the passage of time." And I thought, that's pretty awesome.
但史蒂文问这个家伙，我忘了他是谁，请原谅我，“你认为生命的意义是什么？”那家伙说：“是要学会享受时间的流逝。”我想，这太棒了。
I would add to it, and also engage in behaviors that buy you more time.
我会添加它，并参与一些可以为你赢得更多时间的行为。
Make sure you don't undermine the time piece of it.
确保你不会破坏其中的时间。
But it was something that flew by on social media but stuck with me.
但这是社交媒体上飞逝而过却一直萦绕在我心头的事情。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It is exceedingly rare that a short clip provides entertainment or information that really stays with me, that I reflect on it later.
很少有一个短片能够提供真正让我印象深刻、让我事后反思的娱乐或信息。
Whereas when I read a book, it's exceedingly rare that I don't have five or 10 things underlined per chapter that I go back to later.
然而，当我读一本书时，我很少会在每章中划出五到十个下划线，以便我稍后再回顾。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
It takes a while to read a book.
读一本书需要一段时间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
That's the thing.
就是这样。
It takes a deliberative set of intentional actions to read a book.
阅读一本书需要一系列深思熟虑的有意识的行动。
That's the difference in the modality.
这就是方式上的区别。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So one thing that this speaks to then is, I've wondered whether activities that require effort, that may or may not include reward, but that include effort, and that are a little bit slower, and effort and slower tend to go hand in hand, not always.
因此，这说明的一件事是，我想知道是否需要努力的活动，可能会或可能不包括奖励，但包括努力，而且速度有点慢，努力和慢速往往齐头并进，但并不总是如此。
Whether or not that is part of the mechanism that strengthens a circuit.
这是否是强化电路机制的一部分。
Does effort strengthen an algorithm?
努力会增强算法吗？
In other words, if I get on social media, it's very easy to scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, short-form video content.
换句话说，如果我进入社交媒体，很容易滚动、滚动、滚动、滚动、滚动短视频内容。
Doesn't take any effort.
不需要任何努力。
And in fact, there's no learning involved.
事实上，这并不涉及学习。
All you have to do is move your thumb.
您所要做的就是移动拇指。
But there's really no learning involved.
但实际上并没有涉及到学习。
Whereas if I have to do something, if I have to do a puzzle to get in, or if I have to solve something or think about something or grapple with something, that is where the learning occurs.
然而，如果我必须做某事，如果我必须做一个谜题才能进入，或者如果我必须解决某些问题或思考某些问题或解决某些问题，那就是学习发生的地方。
What's the relationship between, if we know, between effort and dopamine?
如果我们知道的话，努力和多巴胺之间有什么关系？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
There is a good bit of work now where people look at the amount of effort an animal has to do to accomplish a task.
现在有很多工作可以让人们观察动物完成一项任务需要付出多少努力。
Let me just go back to something you just said, which was interesting.
让我回到你刚才说的一些事情，这很有趣。
When you have to do effort, it's easier to learn something because it slows you down.
当你必须付出努力时，学东西会更容易，因为它会减慢你的速度。
I don't know whether effort is itself the cause or whether the fact that effort is slow-
我不知道是努力本身的原因，还是努力缓慢的事实——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
and so it slows it down.
所以它减慢了速度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We could design an experiment to separate-
我们可以设计一个实验来分离-
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yeah, maybe
是的，也许
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
effort and speed.
努力和速度。
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
It immediately gave me this idea.
它立即给了我这个想法。
So that's true in simple experiments with rodents, but rodents can't read very well.
在啮齿类动物的简单实验中确实如此，但啮齿类动物的阅读能力不是很好。
I've never seen a rodent that I admired that could manage a cell phone-
我从来没有见过我欣赏的啮齿类动物能够操控手机——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
very well.
很好。
And even the rodents that can read are kind of flat affectively and all.
即使是能够阅读的啮齿类动物在情感上也有些平淡。
Rodent is a terrible model for this, really.
啮齿类动物确实是一个糟糕的模型。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
I wouldn't even do the experiment on a rodent.
我什至不会在啮齿动物身上做实验。
I'd do the experiment on a human.
我会在人类身上做实验。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Where you can, with a few words, set a human in a certain state and go out, or you can make them hungry, or you can put a human into a mental state by just asking them to think about X, Y, and Z, and have various controls to account for that.
你可以用几句话让一个人处于某种状态然后出去，或者你可以让他们感到饥饿，或者你可以通过要求他们思考 X、Y 和 Z 来让他们进入一种精神状态，并有各种控制来解释这一点。
I have to admit that when I look at the generation we're concerned about, I've just read this book, "The Anxious Generation."
我不得不承认，当我审视我们所关心的一代人时，我刚刚读了《焦虑的一代》这本书。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Jonathan was on this podcast.
乔纳森参加了这个播客。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
And I was on a MacArthur Network, Neuroscience and Law, with him for a while, and he's just an extremely clear-headed person, really.
我和他一起在麦克阿瑟网络、神经科学和法律领域工作了一段时间，他真的是一个头脑非常清醒的人。
Always made me think about things.
总是让我思考一些事情。
On the other hand, I don't know, other than the comparison to others and the speed at which social media lets you do that, and I have girls, mainly, four girls and one boy.
另一方面，我不知道，除了与其他人的比较以及社交媒体让你做到这一点的速度之外，我有女孩，主要是四个女孩和一个男孩。
I don't know what it's doing to them exactly.
我不知道这对他们到底做了什么。
Okay, I don't think anybody does.
好吧，我认为没有人这样做。
I think we all suspect there's features of it that aren't good.
我想我们都怀疑它有不好的功能。
And yet, it's like we're trying to hold back a tsunami.
然而，这就像我们正在努力阻止海啸一样。
It's just the water's going past us.
只是水从我们身边流过。
And so I think the only way to deal with it is kind of fly by wire.
所以我认为解决这个问题的唯一方法就是电传飞行。
When a little fire starts over here and somebody says, "Oh, this really causes a depression in mood," and it's these features of it, then we can go react to that and all.
当这里起火时，有人说：“哦，这确实会导致情绪低落”，而正是它的这些特征，那么我们就可以对此做出反应。
But it's very hard to know what it's going to do globally.
但很难知道它将在全球范围内做什么。
It's evolving with its own.
它正在以自己的方式发展。
It feels like it's independent-
感觉就像是独立的一样
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
of anything we do.
我们所做的任何事情。
And so I think it's going to have to be a sort of a get in front of it reaction.
所以我认为这必须是一种提前反应。
For example, my kid just got a cell phone.
例如，我的孩子刚刚有了一部手机。
She's 13 She was the last, according to her, and she's the reporter here, she's the last seventh grader in her school to get a cell phone.
她今年 13 岁，据她说，她是最后一个拥有手机的七年级学生，她是这里的记者。
But the raw fact was, "I'm being left out of all the discussions and whatnot." And the answer was that that is true.
但最原始的事实是，“我被排除在所有讨论之外。”答案是确实如此。
She is being left out.
她被排除在外。
Their mode of choice is Snapchat now.
他们现在选择的模式是 Snapchat。
Well, there's a lot of downside to Snapchat.
嗯，Snapchat 有很多缺点。
So now I'm the I, my nervous system, and my physiology is now hooked to her blizzard of time requests on my phone.
所以现在我就是我，我的神经系统，我的生理机能现在被她在我手机上发出的大量时间请求所吸引。
I turned it off before I came in here.
我进来之前就把它关掉了。
On the plane flying over the country, I'm denying things and giving 15 minutes and whatnot.
在飞越全国的飞机上，我否认事情并给予 15 分钟之类的时间。
So Jonathan has real prescriptions for how to fix that.
所以乔纳森对于如何解决这个问题有真正的处方。
He has good suggestions for how to fix that.
他对如何解决这个问题有很好的建议。
But the collective action thing is collective actions are hard because they're collections of humans, and you just can't get people to all do something at once.
但集体行动是很难的，因为它们是人类的集合，你无法让人们同时做某事。
There's always a defector.
总有一个叛逃者。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I think as long as we're also training the other, more slow, effortful type integration of knowledge.
嗯，我认为只要我们也训练其他更慢、更费力的知识整合。
It'd be wonderful if social media had settings where I could click entertainment, and I would just get entertainment stuff, and then I knew how long I was doing that versus educate me because I do learn a lot from social media, and I certainly try and learn on social media.
如果社交媒体有设置让我可以点击娱乐，我只会获得娱乐内容，然后我知道我这样做了多长时间而不是教育我，那就太好了，因为我确实从社交媒体中学到了很多东西，而且我当然尝试在社交媒体上学习。
And this, what may sound like kind of a trivial statement the other day, and learn to enjoy the passage of time, was what sat with me in some way that felt important to me at that moment, and I've been reflecting on it through a couple of different lenses.
这句话，在前几天听起来可能像是一个微不足道的陈述，学会享受时间的流逝，却以某种方式伴随着我，在那一刻对我来说很重要，我一直在通过几个不同的视角来反思它。
We're obviously not going to solve this problem.
我们显然不会解决这个问题。
I am curious about speed versus effort when foraging.
我对觅食时的速度与努力感到好奇。
Let's take it back to the dating example.
让我们回到约会的例子。
This person's going to kill me for, I'm not going to reveal who she is.
这个人要杀了我，我不会透露她是谁。
But I said, "Listen, I noticed this pattern over time.
但我说：“听着，随着时间的推移我注意到了这种模式。
You discount people early, or you get very excited, and then it always kind of ends up in the same place where you're like, 'Why did I do that?'" And I was like, "Well, so maybe run a different algorithm.
你很早就对人们打折扣，或者你变得非常兴奋，然后它总是以同样的方式结束，你会想，‘我为什么这么做？’”我当时想，“好吧，所以也许运行不同的算法。
Maybe start to collect data a little bit more slowly, or maybe see them more frequently for two weeks and then make a decision so you didn't waste so much time.
也许开始慢一点收集数据，或者可能在两周内更频繁地查看它们，然后做出决定，这样你就不会浪费太多时间。
More frequently means more time, but not over time." So we can change our mode of foraging.
更频繁意味着更多时间，但不是随着时间的推移。”所以我们可以改变我们的觅食方式。
I personally put social media on an old phone, and it goes in a supermax prison lockbox that you can't code out of for 22 hours a day.
我个人把社交媒体放在一部旧手机上，它被放在监狱的一个超级密码箱里，你一天 22 小时都无法从里面密码出来。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
You do that to yourself?
你这样对自己吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I do.
我愿意。
And not because-
并不是因为——
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
You're like the person that can't avoid eating the chocolate cake.
你就像一个无法避免吃巧克力蛋糕的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No.
不。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
You lock the chocolate cake up.
你把巧克力蛋糕锁起来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It wasn't that.
不是那样的。
I'd read this paper that was published recently that said that if your phone is upside down on a table or in your bag in the same room, it lowers cognitive performance, even if you're not aware-
我读过最近发表的一篇论文，其中说如果你的手机倒置在桌子上或放在同一个房间的包里，它会降低认知能力，即使你没有意识到 -
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of the phone.
电话的。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
It calls to you.
它在呼唤你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's pulling resources.
它正在拉动资源。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's pulling resources.
它正在拉动资源。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
It's calling to you, right.
它在呼唤你，对吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's pulling resources.
它正在拉动资源。
If it's in another room, it seems that your cognitive performance returns to its previously higher levels.
如果在另一个房间，你的认知表现似乎会恢复到之前的较高水平。
So I thought that's pretty good.
所以我认为这很好。
So I started keeping my phone in the other room, and I thought, "How much further can I take this?" So I think that the physical distance from things that's non-negotiable feels really good to somebody like me.
所以我开始把手机放在另一个房间里，我想，“我还能把这个放多远呢？”所以我认为，对于像我这样的人来说，与不可协商的事物保持物理距离感觉真的很好。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Out of sight, out of mind.
眼不见心不烦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe.
也许吧。
Although I want to bring this back to dopamine.
虽然我想把这个话题带回多巴胺。
Can the dopamine system learn to get motivation states and pleasure from resisting things?
多巴胺系统能否学会从抵制事物中获得动力状态和快乐？
I think of a pathologic version of this might be we did an episode on anorexia where-
我认为这可能是一个病理版本，我们做了一个关于厌食症的剧集，其中-
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
food is rewarding for most people, but for people who have true anorexia, the reward system seems to enter a state where resisting food becomes the reward.
食物对大多数人来说是一种奖励，但对于真正患有厌食症的人来说，奖励系统似乎进入了一种状态，抵抗食物就成了奖励。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Control feels good.
控制感觉很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, control feels good.
是的，控制感很好。
But there's anorexia, obviously, the most dangerous and deadly psychiatric illness of all the psychiatric illnesses.
但显然，厌食症是所有精神疾病中最危险、最致命的精神疾病。
But resisting your phone to get other work done and to be more present for people in my life, including myself, but that seems like a good thing.
但是，拒绝使用手机来完成其他工作，并更多地关注我生活中的人，包括我自己，但这似乎是一件好事。
So can the dopamine system encode reward for resisting behaviors as much as it can for indulging behaviors?
那么，多巴胺系统能否像编码放纵行为一样编码抵制行为的奖励呢？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yes.
是的。
I think anorexia is a good example of it.
我认为厌食症就是一个很好的例子。
It feels good to resist, and they do it pathologically.
抵抗的感觉很好，但他们这样做是病态的。
Such a dangerous disorder.
如此危险的疾病。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But in a healthy sense, like I'll reveal now that you were a fairly accomplished decathlete, so that meant getting to practice doing things, but did you ever feel like, "I'm going to bed early when everybody else is staying up late.
但从健康的角度来看，就像我现在要透露的那样，你是一名相当有成就的十项全能运动员，所以这意味着要练习做事，但你是否曾经想过，“当其他人都熬夜时，我要早点睡觉。
I'm getting stronger"?
我变强了？”
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Oh, I relished the whole, I'm running this tennis court hill while all those other soft guys are asleep, and I'm throwing up on top of the hill.
哦，我很享受这一切，当所有其他软弱的家伙都在睡觉时，我正在这座网球场山上跑步，而我正在山顶上呕吐。
Yeah, that was a thing.
是的，那是一件事。
And it meant when you got in a tough spot, I was a wrestler all through high school.
这意味着当你陷入困境时，我整个高中都是摔跤手。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, they're sickos.
是的，他们都是病态的。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yeah, they're sickos.
是的，他们都是病态的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
But you're never in better shape than when you're an active wrestler.
但当你是一名活跃的摔跤手时，你的体形再好不过了。
You have to put up with things that are really demanding on you, like having your air cut off.
你必须忍受那些对你要求很高的事情，比如空气被切断。
So the main thing you do when your air is cut off is don't panic.
因此，当空气被切断时，您要做的主要事情就是不要惊慌。
Well, you're not pre-built to not panic, so you have to learn how to do that.
好吧，你生来就不会惊慌，所以你必须学习如何做到这一点。
That was the most important thing I did in wrestling, just learn to stay calm, think about where your weight was and all that.
这是我在摔跤中所做的最重要的事情，学会保持冷静，想想你的体重在哪里等等。
It's the same thing for people that study a lot.
对于经常学习的人来说也是如此。
I think people that study a lot want to be better than the people that don't study a lot.
我认为经常学习的人比那些不经常学习的人希望变得更好。
They want the idea of achieving a goal that's hard for other people to do, and the most healthy version of that is without any regard to what anybody else is doing.
他们想要实现其他人难以实现的目标，而最健康的版本就是不考虑其他人在做什么。
The person who just, "This is the life I live, and these are my standards, and I'm quiet with them, and I'm going to go do this thing, and it doesn't matter what anybody else thinks." And You hope that for your children.
这个人只是说：“这就是我的生活，这些是我的标准，我对它们保持安静，我要做这件事，其他人怎么想并不重要。”您希望您的孩子也是如此。
You hope they get to be a person like that.
你希望他们成为这样的人。
Anyway, I can tell you my kids' school, just to circle back, their collective action is to completely disallow phones during the school day.
无论如何，我可以告诉你我孩子的学校，只是回过头来说，他们的集体行动是在上学期间完全禁止使用手机。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is junior high school?
这是初中吗？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
They go to a school that's K through 12.
他们就读于一所从幼儿园到十二年级的学校。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
You have to put it up when you get there, and I think 3:30 is when you can activate to call for a ride or whatever.
当你到达那里时你必须把它放起来，我想 3:30 是你可以激活叫车或其他什么的时候。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
And it's off.
而且它已经关闭了。
Well, I like the head of school.
嗯，我喜欢校长。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
But that's the best decision she's ever made.
但这是她做过的最好的决定。
That's a great decision.
这是一个伟大的决定。
And now they're wrestling with, what do we do with AI in the school?
现在他们正在思考，我们在学校里如何使用人工智能？
How are we going to let these kids interface with these systems that are smarter than us?
我们如何让这些孩子与这些比我们更聪明的系统进行交互？
More interesting, no less.
更有趣，不少。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I want to talk about AI, but before we go there, I think you've painted a really nice picture of dopamine and the various things it does.
我想谈谈人工智能，但在我们讨论之前，我认为你已经描绘了一幅关于多巴胺及其作用的非常漂亮的图画。
And even just this early statement that you made, that dopamine is fluctuating according to our constant updating, not just expectation, reward.
即使只是您早期的声明，多巴胺也会根据我们不断的更新而波动，而不仅仅是期望和奖励。
But expectation, expectation, expectation, expectation.
但期待，期待，期待，期待。
Maybe the reward never comes, maybe it does.
也许奖励永远不会到来，也许它会到来。
Let's talk about serotonin, because not in every case, but at least in some cases, my understanding is that serotonin is fluctuating in the opposite direction to dopamine, at least in animal studies.
我们来谈谈血清素，因为不是在所有情况下，但至少在某些情况下，我的理解是，血清素的波动方向与多巴胺相反，至少在动物研究中是这样。
These are some interesting data.
这些是一些有趣的数据。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
In human studies, too.
在人类研究中也是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
So educate us about serotonin in this context.
因此，请在这方面向我们介绍血清素。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because I know it's a huge topic, right?
因为我知道这是一个很大的话题，对吗？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
A habit that people that work on neuromodulators, I'll name a few, dopamine, serotonin, norepinephrine, acetylcholine, histamine, probably on the order of, let's say, 15 to 20, I'd say, and then there are a lot of peptides and all.
从事神经调节剂工作的人的习惯，我举几个例子，多巴胺、血清素、去甲肾上腺素、乙酰胆碱、组胺，大概是，比方说，15到20，我想说，然后还有很多肽等等。
But the big three, dopamine, serotonin, norepinephrine.
但三巨头，多巴胺、血清素、去甲肾上腺素。
Learning and motivation, active inhibition, attention.
学习与动机、主动抑制、注意力。
That's what people would say.
人们会这么说。
Norepinephrine and epinephrine are controlling attentional states.
去甲肾上腺素和肾上腺素控制注意力状态。
Serotonin tells you to get ready to wait.
血清素告诉你做好等待的准备。
You put an animal, you put a piece of cheese over an area of a table, and there's an electrified grid on the table.
你放一只动物，把一块奶酪放在桌子的某个区域上，桌子上就会有一个带电的网格。
The animal knows it's electrified.
动物知道它带电了。
They see the cheese, they want the cheese.
他们看到奶酪，他们想要奶酪。
It's a rodent.
这是一种啮齿动物。
They see the cheese, they want the cheese, but the light is on.
他们看到奶酪，他们想要奶酪，但灯亮着。
That means that the grid is active.
这意味着网格处于活动状态。
And they're not super hungry, so they wait.
而且他们并不是超级饿，所以他们会等待。
But there's a part of their nervous system that's making that hard.
但他们神经系统的一部分让这变得困难。
Active waiting.
积极等待。
Which also suggests another set of things for serotonin, that it's learning about negative things.
这也暗示了血清素的另一组作用，即它正在学习消极的事物。
Dopamine's learning about positive things or the absence of negative things.
多巴胺了解积极的事物或不存在消极的事物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
So there's ambiguity in there because the experiments aren't all that clear yet.
所以其中存在歧义，因为实验还不是很清楚。
There's an enormous amount of work going on.
有大量的工作正在进行。
In humans, we are the only group who record sub-second levels of dopamine and serotonin in conscious human beings while they do things.
在人类中，我们是唯一在有意识的人类做事时记录下亚秒级多巴胺和血清素水平的群体。
Reward-motivated tasks, social interactions with other people, various kinds of visual perceptual tasks, looking at emotional pictures, positive, negative, and neutral, and whatnot.
奖励驱动的任务、与他人的社交互动、各种视觉感知任务、查看情感图片、积极的、消极的和中性的等等。
The theme that emerges from that is dopamine and serotonin are opponent to one another.
由此出现的主题是多巴胺和血清素是相互对立的。
When dopamine goes up, serotonin goes down.
当多巴胺升高时，血清素就会下降。
When serotonin goes up, dopamine goes down.
当血清素升高时，多巴胺就会下降。
We could talk about those events as being for positive events or anticipation of positive events.
我们可以将这些事件称为积极事件或对积极事件的预期。
Dopamine goes up and serotonin goes down, an opponent see to that.
多巴胺上升，血清素下降，对手会注意这一点。
At your own institution, Rob Malenka has a set of beautiful results in rodents, where the learning that they see in the animal requires that kind of opponency.
在你们自己的机构中，罗布·马伦卡 (Rob Malenka) 在啮齿动物身上取得了一系列漂亮的结果，他们在动物身上看到的学习需要这种对抗。
And it's a definitive experiment in the rodent.
这是在啮齿动物身上进行的一项决定性的实验。
It's harder to do these things in humans, because you can do simple things in humans, that's fine, but humans can sit and have an idea, and it can generate these kinds of signals, and they can run through the ideas.
在人类身上做这些事情比较困难，因为你可以在人类身上做简单的事情，这很好，但是人类可以坐下来有一个想法，它可以产生这些类型的信号，并且他们可以运行这些想法。
And so that's a hard thing to both get our hands around and to do in a controlled setting.
因此，要让我们动手并在受控环境中完成这件事是一件很难的事情。
And so that's why it's been ambiguous.
这就是为什么它一直含糊不清。
But the first time we were able to measure dopamine and serotonin concurrently, they look opponent, and they look opponent all over the place.
但当我们第一次能够同时测量多巴胺和血清素时，它们看起来是对手，而且在所有地方都看起来是对手。
There are old ideas from the '60s and '70s about opponent systems in this sort of affective processing space.
关于这种情感处理空间中的对手系统，有 60 年代和 70 年代的旧观念。
Dopamine has now inherited the positive part of that, and serotonin, the negative part of that.
多巴胺现在继承了它的积极部分，而血清素则继承了它的消极部分。
Opponency, as you know, is a theme in the nervous system.
如您所知，对手是神经系统的一个主题。
In the retina, you have color opponency, you have light and dark opponency.
在视网膜中，有颜色的对立，有明暗的对立。
These kinds of information channels go all the way through to the visual cortex.
这些信息通道一直到达视觉皮层。
One other thing that's interesting is that when you put SSRIs on people, you prevent selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors.
另一件有趣的事情是，当你给人们服用 SSRIs 时，你可以防止选择性血清素再摄取抑制剂。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Prozac.
百忧解。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Prozac.
百忧解。
Fluoxetine, Lexapro.
氟西汀、Lexapro。
It blocks the reuptake of serotonin in the serotonin terminals.
它阻止血清素末端的血清素再摄取。
Over a few weeks period, you have a clinical effect, and for some people, it's a life changer.
经过几周的时间，您就会产生临床效果，对于某些人来说，这会改变他们的生活。
It's very heterogeneous.
这是非常异质的。
But it pushes serotonin into the dopamine terminals, too.
但它也会将血清素推入多巴胺末端。
This is less well understood.
这一点不太好理解。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
But if you were a system and you thought that the positive juice was dopamine and the negative juice was serotonin, and you put the negative juice in the positive terminals, then the cells that control the release of that are going to chatter for positive things.
但如果你是一个系统，你认为积极的汁液是多巴胺，消极的汁液是血清素，并且你将消极的汁液放入正极端子，那么控制其释放的细胞就会为积极的东西而喋喋不休。
You might start negatively conditioning on things that you should actually pursue and learn about.
你可能会开始对你真正应该追求和学习的事情产生负面影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
SSRIs have helped a great number of people.
SSRIs 已经帮助了很多人。
There have also been some devastatingly tragic circumstances where SSRIs have The theory is that they've accelerated suicidality, they've accelerated anhedonia, they've created a lot of problems.
SSRIs 也曾出现过一些毁灭性的悲惨情况。从理论上讲，它们加速了自杀倾向，它们加速了快感缺乏，它们造成了很多问题。
If we were to just take a step back in terms of serotonin as learning about negative things, if you could just summarize these results for me, animals and what the expectation would be in humans.
如果我们在血清素方面退后一步，了解负面事物，如果你能为我、动物以及人类的期望总结一下这些结果。
So let's say that somebody or an animal is learning a task where they get shocked.
假设某人或一只动物在学习一项任务时感到震惊。
If one were to artificially increase serotonin, does that make somebody or an animal more or less likely to code something as negative?
如果人为地增加血清素，这是否会使某人或动物更有可能或不太可能将某些东西编码为阴性？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Well, the idea would be it makes you less likely to code something as negative-
好吧，这个想法是它会让你不太可能将某些东西编码为负面的-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay
好的
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
because you have less serotonin in the serotonergic terminals.
因为你的血清素末端的血清素较少。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
And so if they're communicating this information about learning about-
因此，如果他们正在传达有关了解的信息-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
More serotonin in the serotonergic terminals.
血清素能末端有更多的血清素。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got you.
明白你了。
So if somebody takes an SSRI, serotonin is increased, and they have a tough interaction at work.
因此，如果有人服用 SSRI，血清素就会增加，他们在工作中的互动就会变得困难。
The idea is that they would encode that cognitively as less bad because there's an abundance of serotonin, or worse than it would be had they not been on this drug.
这个想法是，他们会在认知上将其编码为不那么糟糕，因为有丰富的血清素，或者比他们没有服用这种药物时更糟糕。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
When you increase serotonin in your brain, because you won't let it be vacuumed out by the normal mechanisms that clear it from your brain, then it has the opportunity to be there longer, and it has the opportunity to go into the dopamine terminals.
当你增加大脑中的血清素时，因为你不会让它被从大脑中清除的正常机制吸走，那么它就有机会在那里停留更长时间，并且有机会进入多巴胺末端。
This is something we know.
这是我们所知道的。
The mechanisms that suck dopamine out of the spaces of your brain will also bind to serotonin and suck it out.
从大脑空间吸出多巴胺的机制也会与血清素结合并将其吸出。
Not quite as well because it's tuned, it's called a dopamine transporter.
不太好，因为它被调整了，它被称为多巴胺转运蛋白。
And so depending on what the downstream parts of your brain think, then in fact, increasing serotonin could decrease the serotonin in the serotonin terminals by blocking the reuptake.
因此，根据大脑下游部分的想法，事实上，增加血清素可能会通过阻止再摄取来减少血清素末端的血清素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
So that's why you said it earlier.
所以这就是你之前说的原因。
I tried to correct you saying, "No, it's going to increase serotonin because you're blocking reuptake." You're saying, "No, it pushes serotonin into the dopamine terminals," and this is why people might not get as much reward from a positive event-
我试图纠正你说：“不，它会增加血清素，因为你阻碍了再摄取。”你会说，“不，它会将血清素推入多巴胺末端”，这就是为什么人们可能不会从积极的事件中获得那么多的奖励——
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Correct
正确
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
when serotonin is-
当血清素是-
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Correct
正确
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
elevated pharmacologically.
药理学上升高。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
There was a killer paper-
曾经有一篇杀手论文——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so this-
好吧，所以这个——
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
20 years ago on that, where they showed they gave rodents some common SSRI.
20 年前，他们向啮齿动物展示了一些常见的 SSRI。
They waited this number of weeks, and they went in there to say, "Where is the serotonin?" Okay?
他们等了几周，然后进去问：“血清素在哪里？”好的？
And what they showed was that the dopamine transporter pathway was the thing that was taking it into the dopamine terminals because that's where the dopamine transporters are.
他们发现，多巴胺转运蛋白途径是将其带入多巴胺末端的东西，因为那是多巴胺转运蛋白所在的地方。
And so I don't know where that's gone since then, but that's a 20-year-old result.
所以我不知道从那以后它去了哪里，但这是 20 年前的结果。
It's a very clear result.
这是一个非常明确的结果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
It was in a journal called "Neuron".
它发表在一本名为“Neuron”的期刊上。
John Dani was the senior author.
约翰·丹尼是资深作者。
He's at Penn.
他在宾夕法尼亚大学。
It was a remarkable paper.
这是一篇非凡的论文。
I don't know that people have followed up in humans.
我不知道人们是否对人类进行了追踪。
I actually think the only way to follow up in humans is to do what we've been trying to do, which is develop methods of measuring these things in humans directly.
事实上，我认为在人类身上进行后续研究的唯一方法就是做我们一直在努力做的事情，即开发直接测量人类这些东西的方法。
We've been able to do it in people that are having brain surgeries, and they have an affliction.
我们已经能够在那些正在接受脑部手术的人身上做到这一点，而且他们有痛苦。
They're going to have an electrode put in their brain for various reasons, and they let us piggyback on that.
由于各种原因，他们将在他们的大脑中放置一个电极，他们让我们利用这一点。
They consent, obviously, under strict ethical guidelines.
显然，他们是在严格的道德准则下同意的。
But we can measure serotonin and dopamine when they do a rewarding task, or they play a game that has a series of things that go on back and forth with another person, which I like better-
但是，当他们完成一项有回报的任务，或者他们玩一个包含一系列与另一个人来回进行的事情的游戏时，我们可以测量血清素和多巴胺，我更喜欢这样——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
in the sense that that's a more natural reward.
从某种意义上说，这是一种更自然的奖励。
Somebody does something to you, and you do something back to them.
有人对你做了一些事，你也对他们做了一些事。
Usually, in our case, they're economic games.
通常，就我们而言，它们是经济游戏。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
This is encoded in money or the expectation of the money that's going to come, and you can see strong opponency in dopamine and serotonin signaling in the deep structures in your brain.
这被编码在金钱或对即将到来的金钱的期望中，你可以在大脑深层结构中的多巴胺和血清素信号中看到强烈的对抗。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In these experiments, if people positively anticipate, because things are "going well" for them, you see dopamine going up and you see serotonin going down.
在这些实验中，如果人们积极预期，因为事情对他们来说“进展顺利”，你就会看到多巴胺上升，而血清素下降。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yes.
是的。
Right.
正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And if they're losing at this game, or they feel like the game isn't going well for them in some way, there's more uncertainty, perhaps, serotonin goes up and dopamine goes down?
如果他们在这场比赛中输了，或者他们觉得比赛在某种程度上对他们来说进展不顺利，那么就会有更多的不确定性，也许血清素会上升而多巴胺会下降？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yep.
是的。
And then there's state changes-
然后是状态变化——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
in your brain that can be induced by, for example, making somebody hungry-
在你的大脑中，可以通过例如让某人饥饿来诱发-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
where we don't really know how to explain what we're seeing, but they still show opponency.
我们真的不知道如何解释我们所看到的，但他们仍然表现出反对的态度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What would you say being hungry does to the dynamics for, let's just take them one at a time, dopamine.
你认为饥饿会对动力产生什么影响，让我们一次吃一个，多巴胺。
Does dopamine still increase for positive events when people are hungry?
当人们饥饿时，多巴胺还会因积极事件而增加吗？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
No. Not in rodent models.
不，啮齿动物模型中没有。
Talk about rodent models.
谈论啮齿动物模型。
We're actually in the middle of doing something like that now, where people come in in the morning hungry.
事实上，我们现在正在做类似的事情，人们早上饿着肚子进来。
In this case, these are people with epilepsy that have wires in their head, and we do an experiment on them right before they're going to eat, and then we repeat the experiment after they've eaten.
在这种情况下，这些患有癫痫症的人的头上有电线，我们在他们要吃饭之前对他们进行实验，然后在他们吃完饭后重复这个实验。
But in rodents, it's very clear, I guess at the level of the amygdala, if you make a rodent hungry, then you can show that dopamine will encode something like punishment prediction errors, not reward prediction errors.
但在啮齿动物中，很明显，我想在杏仁核的水平上，如果你让啮齿动物感到饥饿，那么你可以表明多巴胺会编码诸如惩罚预测错误之类的东西，而不是奖励预测错误。
In other words, it's like it flips its role.
换句话说，它就像颠倒了角色。
It's like if you're in a-
就好像你处于一个——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How hungry do you have to be?
你得饿到什么程度？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
I don't know how it feels to be a hungry rat, but imagine that it put it in an emergency state.
我不知道当一只饥饿的老鼠是什么感觉，但想象一下它让它处于紧急状态。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so it's not just a kind of like, I don't do any formal intermittent fasting, but I usually eat my first meal somewhere around now, between 10:00 and noon.
好吧，这不仅仅是一种情况，我不进行任何正式的间歇性禁食，但我通常在现在的某个时间（10:00 到中午）吃第一顿饭。
And at 9:00 a.m., I'm mildly hungry.
上午 9:00，我有点饿了。
I could eat, but I'm not-
我可以吃，但我不-
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
But by 4:00, you would be hungry.
但到了 4:00，你就会饿了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd be really hungry.
我真的会很饿。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
You'd feel it.
你会感觉到的。
You'd feel what we've all felt when we're hungry.
你会感受到我们饥饿时的感受。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
And, this is a guy called Mark Anderman at Harvard.
这是哈佛大学的一个叫马克·安德曼的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
I know Mark.
我认识马克。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
So he puts animals in starvation states, and he shows that dopamine will encode aversive events, aversive errors.
因此，他让动物处于饥饿状态，并证明多巴胺会编码厌恶事件、厌恶错误。
Very clear result.
非常清晰的结果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, folks
所以，各位
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
I know this because he called me.
我知道这一点是因为他打电话给我。
We met-
我们遇见了——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So when your kid boyfriend or girlfriend is hungry and you're going to a show or you're going someplace, you got to feed them if you want them to enjoy the time.
因此，当你的孩子男朋友或女朋友饿了，而你要去演出或去某个地方时，如果你想让他们享受时光，你就必须喂他们。
That's sort of obvious on the one hand, but I don't think we really-
一方面这是显而易见的，但我不认为我们真的-
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Oh, it's even better than that.
哦，比那更好。
There's an Israeli paper from, I don't know, about 10 years ago, where they looked at judges and the judgments that were made if you hadn't eaten versus judgments that you made that you had eaten, and you really want a judge that's had a good lunch.
我不知道，大约十年前，有一份以色列报纸，他们研究了法官以及你没有吃东西时做出的判断与你吃过东西时所做的判断，你真的想要一个吃过一顿丰盛午餐的法官。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very interesting.
非常有趣。
So general state of stress, because hunger is a form of stress-
所以普遍的压力状态，因为饥饿是压力的一种形式-
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
drives the direction of the dopamine to either reinforce positive things or reinforce negative.
驱动多巴胺的方向，要么强化积极的事物，要么强化消极的事物。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yeah, because think about it.
是的，因为考虑一下。
If you get to a state where you're really starving, things have not been going well for a long time.
如果你真的处于挨饿的状态，那么很长一段时间以来事情都进展不顺利。
You've been making really bad decisions.
你一直在做出非常糟糕的决定。
The creek dried up.
小溪干了。
Some forest fire came through and ruined your foraging area or whatever.
一些森林火灾发生并毁掉了你的觅食区或其他地方。
Things are going really, really bad.
事情进展得非常非常糟糕。
Are you going to really sit around and wait for the rewards?
你真的打算坐等奖励吗？
The main thing you want to do is stay alive.
你想做的最重要的事情就是活下去。
If you don't stay alive, it doesn't matter what rewards you chase.
如果你不能活下去，你追求什么回报都没有意义。
And so, in a sense, flipping dopamine's meaning is exactly what you'd want to do.
因此，从某种意义上说，翻转多巴胺的含义正是你想要做的。
You're in an emergency state, and you want to use this reinforcement system, this expectation system, to stay alive.
你处于紧急状态，你想利用这个强化系统、这个期望系统来维持生命。
You want to pay attention mainly to those things.
你想主要关注这些事情。
You want to pay attention to them.
你想关注他们。
You want to be motivated by them.
你想受到他们的激励。
You want to be motivated and pay attention and avoid the negative things.
你想要受到激励，关注并避免消极的事情。
But that's an emergency state.
但这是紧急状态。
When I talk to people about how reinforcement learning models, say, have an impact on how you should train an animal.
当我与人们谈论强化学习模型如何影响你应该如何训练动物时。
Typically, in my case, it's in the laboratory setting, but you could use this with other dogs, for example.
通常，就我而言，它是在实验室环境中，但例如，您可以将其用于其他狗。
Training animals with really negative feedback is a really bad thing to do because what happens when you get really negative feedback, you're in a mall, somebody's shot beside you.
用非常负面的反馈来训练动物是一件非常糟糕的事情，因为当你得到非常负面的反馈时会发生什么，你在商场里，有人在你旁边被枪杀。
That's negative feedback.
这就是负面反馈。
What happens, in the extreme case, you have PTSD, but what you do is you overgeneralize.
在极端的情况下，你患有创伤后应激障碍，但你所做的就是过度概括。
That was so bad, it's rational for your nervous system to think anything that looks like the mall, the fear'll start to come, it'll move out to the curb, it'll egress.
那太糟糕了，你的神经系统会理性地思考任何看起来像商场的东西，恐惧就会开始出现，它会移到路边，它会出去。
This is the whole PTSD cycle.
这就是整个创伤后应激障碍周期。
But that's rational.
但这是合理的。
That was an absolutely unexpected cataclysmic event, and you don't know what could have caused it, really, as far as events leading to it.
这绝对是一场意想不到的灾难性事件，就导致它的事件而言，你真的不知道是什么导致了它。
So you overgeneralize and all.
所以你过于笼统了。
And so you don't learn very well like that.
所以你这样学得不好。
So, a teacher that instead of when you miss, when you're trying to add fractions and you don't get a common denominator quite right, when she takes a ruler and slaps you over the hand, they could still do that when I was in school, this is a generational shift, a good one.
所以，当你错过了，当你试图添加分数而你没有得到一个完全正确的公分母时，当她拿起一把尺子打你的手时，当我在学校时，他们仍然可以这样做，这是一个代际转变，一个很好的转变。
That's a really bad way to teach me to find a common denominator.
这是教我寻找共同点的非常糟糕的方法。
Instead, you could just say, "Nudge."
相反，您可以只说“轻推”。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Anytime someone says, "I have a friend," it's like code on the internet for it's actually you, and that's like the, "I have a friend." But so I have a friend.
任何时候有人说“我有一个朋友”，这就像互联网上的代码，因为实际上是你，就像“我有一个朋友”。但我有一个朋友。
People might be surprised to hear that I have friends.
人们听到我有朋友可能会感到惊讶。
Perhaps not.
也许不是。
I have a lot of friends, and he's a lawyer.
我有很多朋友，他是一名律师。
And prior to becoming a lawyer, he studied torture.
在成为一名律师之前，他研究了酷刑。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
In what context?
在什么背景下？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
He was going to become-
他要成为——
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Torture 101?
酷刑101？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, he was going to become a psychiatrist, and he did a rotation with former victims of torture.
不，他要成为一名精神科医生，并轮流治疗前酷刑受害者。
And then it took him down this rabbit hole of political torture and the history of that.
然后他就被带入了这个充满政治折磨的兔子洞及其历史。
He's a real history buff.
他是一个真正的历史爱好者。
He's a very benevolent person.
他是一个非常仁慈的人。
Very, very kind.
非常非常友善。
But he told me something interesting that I think tells me that some people figured out this thing that if somebody is stressed enough, it contorts the dopamine reward contingency, so that dopamine no longer encodes positive things.
但他告诉我一些有趣的事情，我认为有些人发现了这一点：如果某人压力足够大，就会扭曲多巴胺奖励的偶然性，从而使多巴胺不再编码积极的事物。
It just tries to prevent things from getting worse, is what we're basically saying here.
它只是试图防止事情变得更糟，这就是我们在这里所说的。
He said that the way that people torture people to get information from them is actually pretty surprising, at least it was to me, which is, they hurt them a little bit, and then they tell them they're going to hurt them a lot.
他说，人们通过折磨别人来获取信息的方式实际上是相当令人惊讶的，至少对我来说是这样，也就是说，他们伤害了他们一点，然后他们告诉他们他们会伤害他们很多。
And then they don't.
然后他们就不这么做了。
Rather than hurting them a lot, somehow, by hurting them a little bit and then telling them, "This is going to get much worse unless people give up more information." It's interesting, and I think it speaks exactly to this mechanism, or the mechanism speaks to it.
与其以某种方式伤害他们很多，不如伤害他们一点，然后告诉他们，“除非人们放弃更多信息，否则情况会变得更糟。”这很有趣，我认为它准确地说明了这种机制，或者说该机制对其进行了说明。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
If you hurt a person a lot-
如果你深深地伤害了一个人——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
that's cataclysmic.
那是灾难性的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
That's categorical.
这是绝对的。
I'm going to thank you for not breaking my arms again on Tuesday.
我要感谢你周二没有再折断我的手臂。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Right?
对吗？
If you break limbs, and you do these cataclysmic things which leave them near death, there's nothing left.
如果你折断四肢，做出这些灾难性的事情，让他们濒临死亡，那就什么都没有了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
It's a bad way to train someone.
这是训练某人的糟糕方法。
So what I'm trying to say is I understand that, and the odd thing is when you stress someone enough, it's remarkable what becomes rewarding.
所以我想说的是，我理解这一点，奇怪的是，当你给某人足够的压力时，回报就会变得非凡。
The incremental removal of threat, given that you've made good on a little promise-
鉴于你兑现了一点承诺，逐步消除威胁——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
could be a lot.
可能很多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, I've seen that.
哦，我见过。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
That doesn't even have to be as extreme as torture.
这甚至不必像酷刑那样极端。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Read Dostoyevsky and family dynamics.
阅读陀思妥耶夫斯基和家庭动态。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Read Dostoyevsky and look at the family dynamics and go, they're dialing knobs on degrees of punishment, and it's very effective.
读读陀思妥耶夫斯基的书，看看家庭动态，然后，他们正在调整惩罚的程度，而且非常有效。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's take the inverse of this.
让我们来看一下这个的逆过程。
Let's shine some light in the room, so to speak.
可以这么说，让我们在房间里照亮一些光。
What if dopamine gets too high?
如果多巴胺太高怎么办？
And I'm not talking about methamphetamine, which will really skyrocket dopamine.
我说的不是甲基苯丙胺，它确实会猛增多巴胺。
I would say when people are on very high levels of dopaminergic drugs like methamphetamine or cocaine, everything seems like a good idea to them, and they become very self-obsessed.
我想说，当人们服用大量多巴胺能药物（如甲基苯丙胺或可卡因）时，对他们来说一切似乎都是好主意，他们会变得非常自恋。
In fact, there's a wonderful documentary about the Grateful Dead that I watched recently before Bob Weir died Which someone was saying, at some point in the mid-'80s, it got a lot harder to make great music.
事实上，我最近在鲍勃·威尔去世前观看了一部关于感恩至死乐队的精彩纪录片，有人说，在 80 年代中期的某个时候，制作伟大的音乐变得更加困难。
And someone said, "What happened?" And they said, "Cocaine." Said, "Why would cocaine do that?" And he said, "Because it's a me drug."
有人说：“发生什么事了？”他们说：“可卡因。”问道：“为什么可卡因会这么做？”他说：“因为这是我的药物。”
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Dopamine and cocaine are synonymous with one another.
多巴胺和可卡因是同义词。
But there are a lot of situations where people are overindulging themselves with food, overindulging themselves with dopaminergic activities.
但在很多情况下，人们过度沉迷于食物，过度沉迷于多巴胺能活动。
What does that do to the reward-
这对奖励有什么影响-
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
If you look at it on the average, it resets expectations where very few, if any, natural events can exceed them.
如果你从平均值来看，它会重新设定预期，很少有自然事件能够超过预期。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。
Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.
去年，在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我成为了 Function 成员。
Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health.
Function 提供 100 多项高级实验室测试，为您提供整个身体健康状况的关键快照。
This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more.
此快照为您提供有关心脏健康、激素健康、免疫功能、营养水平等方面的见解。
They've also recently added tests for toxins, such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics and tests for PFAS, or forever chemicals.
他们最近还增加了毒素测试，例如有害塑料中的 BPA 暴露以及 PFAS 或永久化学物质的测试。
Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas.
Function 不仅提供对您的身心健康至关重要的 100 多种生物标记物的测试，而且还分析这些结果并提供相关领域专家的顶级医生的见解。
For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood.
例如，在我第一次使用 Function 进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量升高。
Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification.
功能不仅帮助我发现了这一点，还为我提供了如何最好地降低汞含量的见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼摄入量，我一直在吃大量金枪鱼，同时还努力多吃绿叶蔬菜并补充 NAC、N-乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒。
And I should say, by taking a second Function test, that approach worked.
我应该说，通过进行第二次功能测试，这种方法奏效了。
Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important.
全面的血液检测至关重要。
There are so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test.
有很多与您的心理和身体健康相关的事情只能通过血液检查来检测。
The problem is blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated.
问题是血液检测一直非常昂贵且复杂。
In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost.
相比之下，Function 的简单性和成本水平给我留下了深刻的印象。
It is very affordable.
这是非常实惠的。
As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.
因此，我决定加入他们的科学顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。
If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Function，可以访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。
Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman podcast listeners.
Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等待名单，但他们正在为 Huberman 播客听众提供早期访问服务。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.
同样，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
So I rescued a dog once, back when I was a kid.
所以当我还是个孩子的时候，我曾经救过一只狗。
I kept lots of animals when I was a kid.
我小时候养过很多动物。
My father told me in the end, "Oh, no, you had over 30 cats."
我父亲最后告诉我：“哦，不，你养了三十多只猫。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh my God.
天哪。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
They stayed outside.
他们留在外面。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Why?
为什么？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
That was back when animals, oh, I just kind of-
那是在动物时代，哦，我只是-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
30 cats?
30只猫？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
I had a cat.
我有一只猫。
The cat had a litter.
那只猫生了一窝。
There were seven in the litter.
这窝里有七只。
They all survived.
他们都活了下来。
Then-
然后——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Good for you, man
对你有好处，伙计
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
I wasn't really a budding scientist then, but I realize in retrospect that I really watched them.
那时我还不是一个真正的崭露头角的科学家，但回想起来我意识到我确实观察了他们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Okay.
好的。
And understood the behavior.
并理解这种行为。
And there was this little dog that I rescued that had been beat up and stuff, and that dog was never right.
我救了一只小狗，它被殴打了之类的，但那只狗从来都不对劲。
It had been so abused that basically it started out by biting you.
它被如此虐待，基本上它是从咬你开始的。
Right?
正确的？
And that's what happens when you hurt an animal, when you take it past the edge.
当你伤害一只动物，当你把它带过边缘时，就会发生这种情况。
Of course, then you take it even further, and you have learned helplessness, where you just sit and don't do anything.
当然，如果你更进一步，你就会学会无助，你只是坐着，什么都不做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was tragic.
这是悲惨的。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
I couldn't get that dog to lighten up with those cats and her world was inverted permanently.
我无法让那只狗和那些猫一起变得轻松起来，她的世界被永久颠倒了。
Had just been completely inverted.
刚刚完全颠倒了。
Up was down, down was up.
上是下，下是上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Basic safety was reward.
基本安全就是奖励。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Everything else above that was off the table.
除此之外的其他一切都不再讨论。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
You were in an emergency state.
你正处于紧急状态。
It's just a lot easier as a behavioral commitment to just start out by biting because you're going to have to bite at some point anyway.
作为一种行为承诺，从咬人开始要容易得多，因为无论如何你在某个时候都必须咬人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
And-
还有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, I think we've all known some people like this.
嗯，我想我们都认识这样的人。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Hurt people.
伤害人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's tragic to see.
看到这一幕真是悲惨。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Hurt people have a, and it's interesting as we get more and more knowledge about how to hack that and intervene on that, it'd be nice to be able to fix people like that.
受伤的人有一个，有趣的是，随着我们越来越多地了解如何破解并干预它，能够修复这样的人就好了。
I think they would like to be fixed.
我认为他们希望得到修复。
I think of some people I know, a cousin in particular.
我想起了一些我认识的人，特别是我的表弟。
Drugs of abuse do this to people.
滥用药物会对人们造成这种影响。
They get people into these states where people make decisions that they know are going to lead to, they've done it before, and they're just going to go down the hole again.
他们让人们进入这样的状态，人们做出他们知道会导致的决定，他们以前已经这样做过，但他们只会再次陷入困境。
I have lots of family members where that would be true.
我有很多家庭成员，这是事实。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think nowadays we all know or are aware of people that-
我想现在我们都知道或知道人们——
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
fit that because of the incredible expansion of availability of drugs of abuse, including prescription drugs.
符合这一点是因为包括处方药在内的滥用药物的供应量惊人地增加。
I think, if I may, just to make sure that I'm staying oriented here, here's where we've gotten, it seems.
我想，如果可以的话，只是为了确保我在这里保持方向，这似乎就是我们已经到达的地方。
Dopamine encodes positive expectation and rewards, and it's graded.
多巴胺编码积极的期望和奖励，并且是分级的。
You can have low levels, medium, or high levels, depending on how much positive anticipation.
您的级别可以是低、中或高，具体取决于积极预期的程度。
Serotonin seems to encode negative events.
血清素似乎对负面事件进行编码。
If a human or an animal, sadly, is raised in conditions or spends enough time in conditions where true rewards aren't there and survival itself becomes the reward, the dopamine system will adjust its baseline so that it's just fighting for the survival.
可悲的是，如果人类或动物在没有真正奖励的条件下长大或度过足够的时间，而生存本身就成为奖励，多巴胺系统将调整其基线，以便它只是为生存而战。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
And it's important when you're fighting for survival to recognize and anticipate negative events.
当你为生存而战时，识别和预测负面事件非常重要。
And so the Andermann's work shows that it does prediction on the outcome that's going to be negative, and it gives you a positive pulse for that.
因此，安德曼的工作表明，它确实对负面结果进行了预测，并且它给了你一个积极的脉冲。
You better go learn about that thing You better learn about this thing because you're in a negative state.
你最好去了解那件事，你最好了解这件事，因为你处于消极状态。
I don't know how you got here, but you're in an emergency state.
我不知道你是怎么来到这里的，但你现在正处于紧急状态。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
This is what stress would put you in.
这就是压力会给你带来的情况。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
And so positive becomes negative.
所以积极的变成了消极的。
You need to have positive prediction errors to the prediction of negative events, because that's what's going to keep you alive by paying attention to that.
你需要对消极事件的预测有积极的预测错误，因为只有关注它才能让你活下去。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I keep coming back to relationships, but there are so many examples from friends in my life.
我不断地回到人际关系上，但我的生活中有很多朋友的例子。
I have a really good friend who had had a series of very challenging relationships, just brutal, and then has entered a phase of his life where things are really good and really peaceful.
我有一个非常好的朋友，他经历了一系列非常具有挑战性的关系，非常残酷，然后进入了他人生的一个阶段，一切都非常美好，非常平静。
And, for about the first, I don't know, three years of that new healthy relationship, I'd say, "Hey, how's it going?" And he'd be like and he used to say, "I'm like a cat in a room full of rocking chairs." He'd say, and I go, "Why?
而且，对于这种新的健康关系的第一个，我不知道，三年，我会说，“嘿，怎么样？”他常常说：“我就像一只猫，呆在满是摇椅的房间里。”他会说，我就说：“为什么？
It's tense?" And he goes, "No, it's so calm." And I would say only recently has that message changed, and now he's really flourishing.
紧张吗？”他说：“不，太平静了。”我想说的是，直到最近，这种信息才发生了变化，现在他真的很蒸蒸日上。
The relationship is flourishing, the whole landscape around it is flourishing, and it's really cool to see.
这种关系正在蓬勃发展，周围的整个景观也在蓬勃发展，看起来真的很酷。
But it's exactly what you're talking about.
但这正是你所说的。
It takes some time of feeling safe for somebody to stop just thinking they need to fight for survival and safety, and then it seems that the dopamine system can then adjust its baseline so that it can now work for rewards again.
一个人需要一段时间才能感到安全，才能停止认为自己需要为生存和安全而战，然后多巴胺系统似乎可以调整其基线，以便现在可以再次为奖励而工作。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Pretty incredible.
太不可思议了。
Makes good sense that the dopamine system would be adaptive in this way, and not just for rewards, because throughout human evolution, people have had to deal with tremendous hardship and stress.
多巴胺系统以这种方式适应是有道理的，而不仅仅是为了奖励，因为在整个人类进化过程中，人们不得不应对巨大的困难和压力。
When things are really shitty, what is the serotonin system doing?
当事情真的很糟糕时，血清素系统在做什么？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Much less has been done on that.
在这方面做得还少得多。
The thing that we know for sure in humans is that in all these probes that we have done, it's opponent.
我们在人类身上确信的事情是，在我们所做的所有这些探索中，它是对手。
It is going the opposite direction.
它正在向相反的方向发展。
Some of the best data is from humans, not rodents.
一些最好的数据来自人类，而不是啮齿动物。
It's a minority observation in rodents.
这是啮齿类动物中的少数观察结果。
It's scattered.
已经散了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
It's quite hard to engineer the behavior in a rodent.
设计啮齿类动物的行为非常困难。
I think it's .
我认为是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, I love that we're talking about humans.
哦，我喜欢我们谈论人类。
Most people listening are interested in humans.
大多数听的人都对人类感兴趣。
I am totally fascinated to the point of being blown away by this SSRI thing, that if serotonin reuptake inhibitors drive up serotonin, which they do, they prevent reuptake, that some of that serotonin gets into the dopamine synapses.
我完全被 SSRI 的东西所震撼，如果 5-羟色胺再摄取抑制剂会增加 5-羟色胺（它们确实如此），它们会阻止再摄取，其中一些 5-羟色胺会进入多巴胺突触。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
A lot of it does.
很多都是这样的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A lot of it does.
很多都是这样的。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
So it prevents-
所以它可以防止——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Why haven't we been told this?
为什么我们没有被告知这一点？
And then it lowers the rewarding properties of good stuff.
然后它会降低好东西的奖励特性。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
That's the best way to explain it.
这是最好的解释方式。
And it's science.
这是科学。
Somebody doesn't think that's the explanation.
有人认为这不是解释。
But the fact is, when you put an SSRI on, the serotonin that's released due to activity in serotonin neurons, it's not going back into serotonin terminals.
但事实是，当您服用 SSRI 时，由于血清素神经元的活动而释放的血清素，不会回到血清素终端。
Where does it go?
它去哪里？
This paper by John Dani in 2005 showed it goes into the dopamine system, and he knows that because he could block the dopamine reuptake.
约翰·丹尼 (John Dani) 在 2005 年发表的这篇论文表明，它会进入多巴胺系统，他知道这一点，因为他可以阻止多巴胺的再摄取。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
And it was a 40% difference.
这是 40% 的差异。
So there's all this serotonin sitting there in these terminals they're going to be releasing.
因此，他们将要释放的这些终端中储存着所有这些血清素。
Now that's the negative juice, let's say.
现在我们可以说，这就是负果汁。
Let's say that on the other side of this signaling pathway, electrical activity comes through.
假设在该信号通路的另一侧，发生了电活动。
You release this transmitter, it has an impact, and the receiver goes, "Oh, I'm getting a lot of negative stuff here." But in fact, it's because it's sitting in neurons that chatter for positive things.
你释放这个发射器，它会产生影响，然后接收器会说：“哦，我在这里收到了很多负面的东西。”但事实上，这是因为它位于神经元中，为积极的事物而喋喋不休。
You would have a hard time learning about positive things.
你将很难了解积极的事情。
You might also register negative events as being rewarding, and you learn yourself into a kind of depression that way.
你也可能将负面事件视为有益的，这样你就会陷入某种抑郁症。
That's an interesting set of possibilities, physical possibilities.
这是一组有趣的可能性，物理上的可能性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yeah, that was a fantastic paper.
是的，那是一篇很棒的论文。
I don't know why it didn't sort of catch on.
我不知道为什么它没有流行起来。
I don't remember, but I know John Dani quite well, and he did hard experiments, and they took a long time.
我不记得了，但我很了解约翰·丹尼，他做了艰苦的实验，花了很长时间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We'll put a reference to the paper.
我们将引用该论文。
I think I'll answer my own question by saying that I think that really good scientific findings and theories need advocacy to get lends.
我想我会回答我自己的问题，我认为真正好的科学发现和理论需要宣传才能获得资助。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
They need a shepherd.
他们需要一个牧羊人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They need a shepherd.
他们需要一个牧羊人。
It's part of the reason I started the podcast and invite amazing guests like you and like Terry on, and people who really think deeply about the whole field.
这是我开始播客并邀请像你和特里这样的杰出嘉宾以及真正深入思考整个领域的人的部分原因。
And you're changing the way that I think about serotonin, SSRIs, dopamine.
你正在改变我对血清素、SSRIs 和多巴胺的看法。
You're expanding all of it, truly.
你确实在扩展这一切。
And I know for those listening, that's also true.
我知道对于那些倾听的人来说，这也是事实。
I know you're chomping at the bit to talk about learning algorithms and AI but I want to know first about the experiments where you stuck wires up people's noses and recorded-
我知道你迫不及待地想谈论学习算法和人工智能，但我想先了解一下你把电线插在人们鼻子上并记录下来的实验——
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Ah
啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
dopamine signals in their noses, because these are wild and cool experiments.
他们的鼻子里发出多巴胺信号，因为这些都是疯狂而酷的实验。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
They are, and they're not wild and cool because of me.
他们是的，而且他们并不是因为我而变得狂野和酷。
They're wild and cool because of Christina Zelano at Northwestern.
由于西北大学的克里斯蒂娜·泽拉诺（Christina Zelano），他们变得狂野而酷。
But let me say one thing about how we do measure dopamine in human brains.
但让我说一件事，关于我们如何测量人脑中的多巴胺。
We do it in very specialized circumstances, where you are having a deep brain stimulating electrode put into your brain to treat a movement disorder, like Parkinson's disease or essential tremors.
我们在非常特殊的情况下进行此操作，将深部脑刺激电极放入您的大脑中以治疗运动障碍，例如帕金森病或特发性震颤。
So when you have that, and a minority of patients choose to have a small burr hole put in their head, and under careful operating room procedures, it's put down into different structures in your brain, we won't name them, and then turned on.
因此，当你有这种情况时，少数患者选择在他们的头上放一个小钻孔，并在仔细的手术室程序下，它被放入你大脑中的不同结构中，我们不会命名它们，然后打开。
Okay?
好的？
And it's symptom relieving.
并且可以缓解症状。
Essential tremors is like Parkinson's disease.
特发性震颤就像帕金森病。
You have tremors, and you have difficulty with movement and whatnot.
你会颤抖，行动困难等等。
I don't think you have the emotional problems that Parkinson's patients do.
我不认为你有帕金森病患者那样的情绪问题。
But it's not Parkinson's.
但这不是帕金森病。
You have not lost dopamine.
你并没有失去多巴胺。
If you give an essential tremor patient dopamine drugs, like they do Parkinson's patients, they get much worse, okay?
如果你给特发性震颤患者服用多巴胺药物，就像对帕金森病患者那样，他们会变得更糟，好吗？
The tremors are typically just really irritating for people, and so they do elective neurosurgery to have microwires put in their brain, and it's a very active area of clinical Neuroscience and clinical treatment.
震颤通常对人们来说真的很刺激，因此他们会进行选择性神经外科手术，将微丝放入他们的大脑中，这是临床神经科学和临床治疗的一个非常活跃的领域。
Parkinson's disease, also you can have a stimulating electrode put in.
帕金森病，也可以放入刺激电极。
When you do that, you put a little tiny, and I mean tiny, guide tube down, and they drop the electrodes in there.
当你这样做时，你会放一个很小的，我的意思是很小的导管，然后他们将电极放入其中。
And under those circumstances, we ask to put an electrode in equipped with a neural network model that knows how to interpret electrical signals on the electrode as dopamine, serotonin, norepinephrine, pH, and peroxide fluctuations.
在这种情况下，我们要求安装一个配备神经网络模型的电极，该模型知道如何将电极上的电信号解释为多巴胺、血清素、去甲肾上腺素、pH 值和过氧化物波动。
This isn't exactly, you don't go into Walmart and find this kind of stuff.
这不完全是，你不会去沃尔玛找到这种东西。
The reason nobody's heard about it is because this is a very specialized area right on the edge of translational neuroscience.
没有人听说过它的原因是因为这是一个非常专业的领域，位于转化神经科学的边缘。
And so it's there that we've gotten recordings from deep in the brain.
因此，我们就在那里获得了大脑深处的录音。
What's amazing is when you ask people, would you let us piggyback on your electrodes, because the electrodes that they use have research contacts, and we can make measurements of these transmitters without sitting on any of the clinical bandwidth.
令人惊奇的是，当您问人们是否可以让我们搭载您的电极时，因为他们使用的电极具有研究接触点，并且我们可以在不占用任何临床带宽的情况下对这些发射器进行测量。
In other words, we don't eat up any of the ability of the neurologist to use the electrode output to make decisions about the treatment.
换句话说，我们不会消耗神经科医生使用电极输出做出治疗决策的任何能力。
Okay, there are a lot of moving parts in that.
好吧，其中有很多活动部件。
I've been doing this for a while, and so for about the last 12 years, I got very motivated to measure dopamine in human beings at timescales that were physiological and during cognitive events that we find meaningful.
我这样做已经有一段时间了，所以在过去的 12 年里，我非常有动力在生理时间尺度和我们认为有意义的认知事件期间测量人类的多巴胺。
Okay, so I thought the method was very clever.
好吧，所以我觉得这个方法非常聪明。
I won't even go into talking about the method.
我什至不会谈论该方法。
It kind of worked right away.
它立刻就起作用了。
But the entire process didn't work right away, and it's taken way over a decade.
但整个过程并没有立即奏效，而是花了十多年的时间。
It took a lot of work.
这需要做很多工作。
So we have sites set up around the world where we do these things.
因此，我们在世界各地设立了网站来开展这些工作。
Okay, it's in that context that we have got knowledge about how to use these depth electrodes to, instead of just measuring electrical activity, to do neurochemistry.
好的，正是在这种背景下，我们了解了如何使用这些深度电极来进行神经化学，而不仅仅是测量电活动。
Okay.
好的。
Then I ran into Christina Zelano, who's an olfactory physiologist, full professor at Northwestern University, very gifted.
然后我遇到了克里斯蒂娜·泽拉诺（Christina Zelano），她是一位嗅觉生理学家，西北大学的正教授，非常有天赋。
What Christina was doing was taking these depth electrodes that are FDA approved, normally used to be put carefully down into the tissue of your brain.
克里斯蒂娜所做的就是使用这些经 FDA 批准的深度电极，通常用于小心地将其放入大脑组织中。
They're basically just rubbery little tubes about a millimeter in diameter, and snaking it up people's nose and just laying it up against a region of the olfactory epithelium, the part of your tissue inside your nose, way up high, basically around here.
它们基本上只是直径约一毫米的橡胶小管，将其蜿蜒进入人们的鼻子，然后将其放在嗅觉上皮的一个区域上，嗅觉上皮是鼻子内组织的一部分，很高，基本上就在这儿附近。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Near your eyeball.
靠近你的眼球。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Near your eyeball.
靠近你的眼球。
Above your eyeball.
在你的眼球上方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Above your eye, yeah.
在你的眼睛上方，是的。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Above and northwest of your eyeball, if you know how to put the-
在你眼球的上方和西北方向，如果你知道如何放置-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Okay.
好的。
And doing electrophysiology, listening to the electrical activity, and she already had rodent model stuff that, okay.
做电生理学，听电活动，她已经有了啮齿动物模型的东西，好吧。
And I went, "I can totally get the chemistry off of that." And why is that important?
我说：“我完全可以从中产生化学反应。”为什么这很重要？
Well, other than being weird, you can consent healthy people into doing this.
好吧，除了奇怪之外，你可以同意健康的人这样做。
You can snake this thing up there and clip it to their nostril, set up the electronics beside them, and then you can do all kinds of stuff, including letting them eat, letting them do mindfulness meditation, breathing exercises, letting them do decision-making tasks with and without other people.
你可以把这个东西蛇形地放到他们的鼻孔里，在他们旁边安装电子设备，然后你就可以做各种各样的事情，包括让他们吃饭，让他们做正念冥想，呼吸练习，让他们在有或没有其他人的情况下完成决策任务。
You can do simple things like just a stimulus and then squirt odor in there, a rewarding smell.
你可以做一些简单的事情，比如刺激一下，然后喷出气味，一种有益的气味。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And measure dopamine and serotonin.
并测量多巴胺和血清素。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
And so we're giddy about this, mainly because we can consent healthy people into doing this.
所以我们对此感到头晕，主要是因为我们可以同意健康的人这样做。
One of the complaints, of course, of doing it in people with epilepsy and Parkinson's and whatnot, is they have epilepsy and Parkinson's.
当然，对于患有癫痫和帕金森氏症等疾病的人来说，这样做的抱怨之一是他们患有癫痫和帕金森氏症。
They have an affliction on board.
他们在船上遇到了困难。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could you just share with us, are there any top contour statements that we can make about brain state, dopamine, and serotonin as measured off through the nose?
您能否与我们分享一下，我们是否可以对通过鼻子测量的大脑状态、多巴胺和血清素做出任何顶级轮廓描述？
For instance, if you see a fluctuation in dopamine through one of these nasal probes.
例如，如果您通过这些鼻探针之一看到多巴胺的波动。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Okay.
好的。
What we see in the nasal recordings looks very much like exactly what we would expect if we were recording from the neurons in the midbrain based on what people have recorded on the simple experiments.
如果我们根据人们在简单实验中记录的内容从中脑神经元进行记录，我们在鼻腔记录中看到的内容看起来非常像我们所期望的。
There's a cue.
有一个提示。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
There's a reward.
有奖励。
There's this.
有这个。
It went up, it went down, that kind of thing.
它上升，它下降，诸如此类的事情。
This is a positive picture.
这是一幅积极的图景。
This is a negative picture.
这是一张负面的照片。
This is positive affect.
这是积极的影响。
This is negative affect.
这是负面影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so dopamine increases when there's a positive expectation.
好的，当有积极的期望时，多巴胺就会增加。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Serotonin increases when there's a negative expectation.
当存在负面期望时，血清素就会增加。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you're recording that from the nose, essentially non-invasively, except somebody has to put a wire in.
你是从鼻子记录的，基本上是非侵入性的，除非有人必须插入一根电线。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Apparently, the-
显然，——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Pseudo-invasively
伪侵入式
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
language is minimally invasive.
语言是微创的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All right.
好吧。
Well, cool.
嗯，很酷。
I can live with minimally invasive.
我可以接受微创治疗。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
So I haven't done it yet myself, because when I was scheduled to do it, we realized we'd clipped the age at 65, and I had had a birthday on Sunday, and I aged out, so I'm-
所以我自己还没有这么做，因为当我计划这样做时，我们意识到我们已经把年龄限制在 65 岁了，而且我周日过了生日，我已经老了，所以我——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're, how old are you now?
你，你现在几岁了？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
I'm 66.
我66岁了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're looking good, man.
你看起来不错，伙计。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People are going to be like, "What are your protocols?" Raise five kids, run a big lab.
人们会问，“你们的协议是什么？”抚养五个孩子，经营一个大实验室。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Never sleep.
永远不要睡觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do not sleep?
不睡觉吗？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Never sleep.
永远不要睡觉。
Not really.
并不真地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you not sleep well, or you just work all the time?
你睡得不好，还是一直在工作？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
My dad, who died at 91 in 2021, he didn't sleep.
我的父亲于 2021 年去世，享年 91 岁，他没有睡觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Take that, Matt Walker, Brian Johnson.
接受这个，马特·沃克，布莱恩·约翰逊。
You don't have to sleep to live to 91.
你不必睡觉就能活到91岁。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
It may be that-
可能是这样——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There are a lot of that's genetics, too.
其中也有很多遗传因素。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
It's a set.
这是一套。
It's a completely-
这完全是一个——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I'm just teasing
是的，我只是在开玩笑
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
set.
设置。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A lot of that's genetics.
其中很多是遗传因素。
I think I do fine on six hours.
我想我六个小时表现还不错。
I prefer seven, but I don't need eight.
我更喜欢七个，但不需要八个。
I definitely do not need eight.
我绝对不需要八个。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
It's really variable with people.
确实因人而异。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
And then there's the cognitive people, the people that develop an opinion about how well or long they slept, and that idea circulates in their mind.
然后是认知型的人，他们对自己的睡眠质量或睡眠时间形成自己的看法，并且这种想法在他们的脑海中循环。
"I didn't get much sleep last night." It's just-
“我昨晚没睡好。”这只是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How much do you sleep per night?
你每晚睡多少觉？
I know we're taking a tangent here, but people will find this interesting, and I certainly do.
我知道我们在这里偏离了主题，但人们会觉得这很有趣，我当然也这么认为。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Okay, when I was younger, it would be like four.
好吧，当我年轻的时候，大概是四岁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, I know another person like that.
好吧，我认识另一个人也是这样。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Okay.
好的。
Now, because I get up really, really early.
现在，因为我起得非常非常早。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What time do you get up?
你几点起床？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
I get up 3:30, 4:00 in the morning.
我早上3:30、4:00起床。
I really enjoy quiet.
我真的很享受安静。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What time do you go to sleep?
你几点睡觉？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Well, I go to sleep twice.
好吧，我睡了两次。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I could do the math, but yeah.
我可以算算，但是是的。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
I'll fall asleep in the evening.
晚上我会睡觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
And then I wake up.
然后我就醒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What time in the evening, like 8:00, 9:00?
晚上什么时间，比如 8:00、9:00？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
8:00.
8:00。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Might sleep till 10:00.
可能会睡到10:00。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
But if I do that, I feel good.
但如果我这样做，我感觉很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
And then I have to pretend like I need to go to bed.
然后我必须假装我需要去睡觉。
And so I'll lie down and then when everything's quiet, I'll ooze back downstairs.
所以我会躺下来，等一切安静下来，我就会溜回楼下。
The way I do science-
我做科学的方式——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
is I have to get quiet.
我必须安静下来。
That part I can't do with other people.
这部分我不能和其他人一起做。
I have to do it in dead quiet.
我必须安静地做这件事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The data would say that that first round of short sleep, you're grabbing your deep sleep, you're getting your growth hormone surge, which is great.
数据显示，在第一轮短暂睡眠中，您将获得深度睡眠，生长激素会激增，这很棒。
Bodily repair, sufficient to keep you healthy enough.
身体修复，足以让你保持足够健康。
In the second phase, probably you're getting some REM sleep and enough to seem like an emotionally stable guy.
在第二阶段，您可能会获得一些快速眼动睡眠，并且足以看起来像一个情绪稳定的人。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Well, that's not true.
嗯，事实并非如此。
But my mom, who died in 2023 at almost 90, she used to complain to me as a child, "You're up." Because I'd wander outside and back when I was a kid, no one was scared of anything.
但我妈妈于 2023 年去世，享年近 90 岁。小时候，她经常向我抱怨，“你醒了。”因为我小时候经常在外面走来走去，所以没有人害怕任何事情。
So I'd walk out in the dark and I might walk a mile away from home or something.
所以我会在黑暗中走出去，我可能会离家或其他地方走一英里。
We just weren't scared of anything then.
那时我们什么都不怕。
Now we're scared of everything.
现在我们对一切都感到害怕。
And I worried about it until I got a little older, until I was 12 or 13 years old, and then I just realized, if I'm just going to decide how I think I feel-
我一直担心这个问题，直到我长大一点，直到我 12 或 13 岁，然后我才意识到，如果我要决定我的感受——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
and that's it.
就是这样。
And everybody else is different than me.
而且其他人都与我不同。
And I was raised in a community where there was clearly something wrong with me compared to everybody else.
我是在一个与其他人相比我明显有问题的社区中长大的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or maybe something was wrong with all of them.
或者也许他们所有人都出了问题。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yeah, well, maybe.
是的，好吧，也许吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, it's cool that you learned to trust that, because we get a lot of messages about we need X, Y, and Z.
我的意思是，很高兴您学会了相信这一点，因为我们收到很多关于我们需要 X、Y 和 Z 的消息。
And you clearly are a competitive athlete.
你显然是一名竞技运动员。
Your lab's done spectacularly well.
你们的实验室做得非常好。
I mean, it works for you.
我的意思是，它对你有用。
So, if it works for you, it probably also helped with raising kids because having all that energy to raise five kids is-
所以，如果它对你有用，它可能对抚养孩子也有帮助，因为有那么多精力抚养五个孩子是-
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Well, I've had two marriages, so maybe it worked or didn't work, but-
好吧，我有过两次婚姻，所以也许成功也可能失败，但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so you have some conditioning, too.
好吧，所以你也有一些条件。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
So you know what?
那你知道吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can delete that if you need.
如果需要，您可以删除它。
We'll delete that if you want me to.
如果你愿意的话我们会删除它。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
When I hear you talk about people, I just think to myself, oh, this person, they have a relationship, da, da, da.
我一听你说人，我就心里想，哦，这个人，他们有关系，哒哒哒。
The one thing that does for you is you back off people a little bit.
对你有用的一件事就是你稍微远离别人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But what does for you?
但对你来说有什么用呢？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Divorce.
离婚。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
You kind of go, if you think at all about it, you just go, nobody is one thing.
你就走吧，如果你想一想，你就走吧，没人是一回事。
Everybody's a little complicated.
大家的心情都有点复杂。
Nobody's Mother Teresa 99.9% of the time.
99.9% 的情况下，没有人是特蕾莎修女。
They were a jerk last Thursday, or they were this.
上周四他们是个混蛋，或者就是这样。
Nobody gets through life without making stupid, dumbass mistakes.
没有人能在一生中不犯愚蠢的错误。
And it's easy to be judgmental until something bad has happened to you, like something really soul-crushing, like a divorce, and you have to go...
你很容易做出评判，直到发生一些不好的事情，比如真正令人心碎的事情，比如离婚，你必须离开……
Because generally, there are two people involved in that.
因为一般来说，有两个人参与其中。
And so, that's a learning lesson that helped me, it's helped me in many ways.
所以，这是一个对我有帮助的学习课程，它在很多方面帮助了我。
I appreciate my life now.
我很珍惜现在的生活。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
For a reason, and I wouldn't do it if I didn't have those kind of scars.
出于某种原因，如果我没有那些伤疤我就不会这样做。
Also, science, I don't know if you talk about this, science is a contact sport.
还有，科学，我不知道你是否谈到这个，科学是一项接触运动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I haven't talked so much about this.
我还没有谈过这么多。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Science is a contact sport.
科学是一项接触运动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But, yeah, no, it's-
但是，是的，不，这是——
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
At the leading edge, science is a contact sport.
在前沿，科学是一项接触运动。
And there are a lot of smart people doing science on the world stage and certainly on the American stage, and they're out there sort of battling at the front tier.
在世界舞台上，当然在美国舞台上，有很多聪明人在从事科学研究，他们在前线进行战斗。
And the first thing that happens when you do anything good is out come the chain mail and the maces and whatnot, and you kind of have to fight for yourself a little bit.
当你做了任何好事时，发生的第一件事就是链子邮件和狼牙棒之类的东西，你必须为自己奋斗一点。
And so then it asks of you to look inside yourself, like, "Is this an important problem?
然后它要求你审视自己的内心，比如，“这是一个重要的问题吗？
Do I really believe this result?" And our job, the reason we're paid tax money to discover stuff, is our job is to push the edge of what we know, not sit there just getting money to twiddle our thumbs.
我真的相信这个结果吗？”我们的工作，也就是我们获得税收来发现东西的原因，是我们的工作是推动我们所知道的边缘，而不是坐在那里只是拿钱来摆弄我们的拇指。
And so if you're on the edge, you're going to make mistakes, or you're going to be wrong, or you're going to be attacked or not popular.
因此，如果你处于边缘，你就会犯错误，或者你会出错，或者你会受到攻击或不受欢迎。
And that never ends.
这永远不会结束。
We call it the Reviewer Two syndrome.
我们称之为“审稿人二号综合症”。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Reviewer Two is the one that-
二号审稿人是——
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Reviewer Two
审稿人二号
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
makes your life more difficult, but maybe makes the papers better in the long run.
让你的生活变得更加困难，但从长远来看也许会让论文变得更好。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Maybe.
也许吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Makes us stronger.
让我们更坚强。
It's the brutally hard coach of our career.
这是我们职业生涯中极其严厉的教练。
I'm no longer running a lab, but did until a few years ago.
我不再经营实验室，但直到几年前才开始经营。
And I'll tell you the other thing that's brutally hard about science is that just the work is hard.
我要告诉你，科学的另一件残酷的事情是，工作本身就很困难。
The culture of it also has some punishing features, but they build us.
它的文化也有一些惩罚性的特征，但它们塑造了我们。
They make us stronger.
他们让我们变得更强大。
But it's one of the few professions where, there are others, but it's one of the few professions where you have to work exceedingly hard to get the resources just to do the work.
但这是为数不多的几个职业之一，还有其他职业，但它是为数不多的几个你必须非常努力地工作才能获得资源来完成工作的职业之一。
So it's like having two jobs wrapped into one.
所以这就像将两份工作合二为一。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
And I had no idea that's where knowledge and textbooks came from when I was 10 and living in Macon, Georgia.
当我 10 岁住在佐治亚州梅肯时，我并不知道知识和教科书是从哪里来的。
And I don't think most people do.
我认为大多数人都不会这样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Part of the reason we started this podcast is that people should interface with scientists, learn from them, understand some of what it's about.
我们开始这个播客的部分原因是人们应该与科学家互动，向他们学习，了解其中的一些内容。
It's still an awesome endeavor to discover things.
发现事物仍然是一项了不起的努力。
But you're right, you have to have some real fortitude.
但你是对的，你必须有一些真正的毅力。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
But you're not told that when you join the club.
但当你加入俱乐部时，你并没有被告知这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, not so much.
不，没那么多。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
You're not really told that.
你并没有真正被告知这一点。
You're generally, science is a, you're an assistant.
一般来说，科学是一个助手。
You're an apprentice.
你是个学徒。
It's an apprenticeship training.
这是一个学徒培训。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
You go sit by some person who's great at X, and the main thing you do is you absorb them doing all these little things.
你坐在某个擅长 X 的人旁边，你所做的主要事情就是吸收他们做所有这些小事情。
It's not training in X and Y and Z in school and whatnot.
这不是在学校里进行 X、Y 和 Z 等方面的培训。
It's not like that at all.
根本不是那样的。
It's not like getting grades in school.
这不像在学校取得成绩。
But you do absorb stuff from smart people around you.
但你确实从周围聪明人那里吸收了东西。
I've benefited from an enormous number of firebrand, intuitive people that are But you're typically not paying for yourself then.
我从大量煽动性的、直觉敏锐的人那里受益匪浅，但那时你通常不会为自己付出代价。
Then you go out, and you try to do your own thing, and you're like, "Gosh." It's bracing in a way.
然后你出去，尝试做自己的事情，然后你就会说，“天哪。”它在某种程度上起到了支撑作用。
The American system, I think, is...
我认为美国的制度是...
I don't know how to compare it to Europe, even though I've had European grants, but I've never been plugged into the system here.
我不知道如何将其与欧洲进行比较，尽管我获得了欧洲的资助，但我从未接触过这里的系统。
We're hard on each other here, and I've had people that have been on study review panels-
我们在这里对彼此很严厉，而且我有一些人曾参加过研究审查小组——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
from Europe, on American study review panels, who say, "Wow, you guys are just...
来自欧洲的美国研究审查小组成员说：“哇，你们只是......
I thought you were slapping everybody on the back, and..."
我以为你在拍每个人的背，然后……”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, no. I sat on study section review panels for a lot of years.
哦，不。我在研究部分评审小组中任职多年。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I was a regular member.
我是一名普通会员。
And you go in there knowing you're going to have to eliminate 70% of the grants-
当你进入那里时，你知道你将不得不取消 70% 的补助金 -
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that you read.
你读到的。
So you sort of advocate for the ones that you really like, but you have to come up with reasons why you dislike things, and that's an unfortunate consequence of not enough funding.
所以你可以提倡你真正喜欢的东西，但你必须找出你不喜欢的东西的原因，这是资金不足的不幸后果。
I do think that things are changing somewhat, and there are other sources of funding, fortunately, philanthropy-
我确实认为事情正在发生一些变化，并且还有其他资金来源，幸运的是，慈善事业-
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
foundations.
基础。
But yeah, it's not for the weak of heart at all.
但是，是的，这根本不适合内心脆弱的人。
And having a minimal sleep need definitely helps.
最低限度的睡眠需求肯定会有所帮助。
I don't know anyone that succeeds in science without working really hard.
我不知道有谁能够在科学上取得成功而无需真正努力工作。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I will also say, if you really want to get your ass kicked, just become a public-facing person.
我还要说，如果你真的想被踢屁股，那就成为一个面向公众的人吧。
But science made all of this feel much easier.
但科学让这一切变得更加容易。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Much easier.
容易多了。
It's different, right?
这是不同的，对吧？
But science, I don't want to get into war stories about long hours, because no one's interested in that, but yeah, science is a thorough ass-kicking with the occasional reward.
但是科学，我不想谈论关于长时间工作的战争故事，因为没有人对此感兴趣，但是，是的，科学是一种彻底的踢屁股，偶尔会有奖励。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Plus, it's biology.
另外，这是生物学。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Plus, it's-
另外，它是——
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Meaning, even when you're right on Tuesday-
意思是，即使你周二是对的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure
当然可以
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
eventually, it's like, "Oh, well."
最终，它就像，“哦，好吧。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Totally.
完全可以。
But this gets us back to dopamine and rewards, which is one thing I will say, in my experience, was very valuable about doing a PhD, about working in a lab, doing biology experiments, is that it teaches you to set up a reward expectation, motivation contingency loop that is based on everyday things and long-term goals.
但这让我们回到多巴胺和奖励，根据我的经验，我要说的一件事对于攻读博士学位、在实验室工作、做生物学实验非常有价值，那就是它教会你建立一个基于日常事物和长期目标的奖励期望、动机应急循环。
I think one of the features of being a healthy human is being able to like, "Oh, hey, this is a great cup of coffee this afternoon," but also register the serotonergic, like, "Ah, that experiment failed again." But then when things are working again, you can get some motivation from that and not just think about the PhD as the reward, right?
我认为作为一个健康人的特征之一是能够喜欢，“哦，嘿，今天下午这是一杯很棒的咖啡”，但也能注意到血清素能，比如，“啊，那个实验又失败了。”但当事情再次正常运转时，你可以从中获得一些动力，而不仅仅是将博士学位视为奖励，对吗？
So I go through life now not expecting great things to happen every day or even every week, because I was trained in a system where the big rewards came every couple of years in terms of publishing papers.
所以我现在的生活并没有期待每天甚至每周都会发生伟大的事情，因为我接受的训练系统每隔几年就会在发表论文方面获得巨大的回报。
Sometimes more frequently-
有时更频繁地——
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but it's a long-term thing.
但这是一个长期的事情。
But what about for the more typical example in people where you grow up and things are either really easy, really hard, or for most people, it's kind of a mix.
但对于更典型的例子来说，在你成长的人中，事情要么非常容易，要么非常困难，或者对于大多数人来说，这是一种混合。
Do you think that that's part of us learning how to navigate life going forward?
您认为这是我们学习如何驾驭未来生活的一部分吗？
You got to register your wins in order to continue to have motivation.
你必须登记你的胜利才能继续有动力。
You also need to register your losses in order-
您还需要登记您的损失，以便-
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
You have to sustain your-
你必须维持你的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to not make the same stupid mistakes.
以免犯同样的愚蠢错误。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
You have to sustain your losses, right, and get up again.
你必须承受损失，对吧，然后重新站起来。
This is why I like sports for kids.
这就是为什么我喜欢孩子们的运动。
Okay.
好的。
So I've made all my kids do sports, and one of them did competitive dance.
所以我让我所有的孩子都参加体育运动，其中一个参加了竞技舞蹈。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So sports as a means to understand effort, reward contingency over time.
因此，体育运动是一种了解努力、奖励随时间变化的意外事件的手段。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
And learning how to lose-
并学习如何失去——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
even though you've brought everything you could do that day, the best you could possibly do.
即使那天你已经竭尽全力，尽你所能。
Yeah, somebody's better than you.
是的，有人比你更好。
What are you going to do now?
你现在要做什么？
That is a template for a lot of lessons.
这是很多课程的模板。
Same thing for students in science labs, especially mine.
对于科学实验室的学生来说也是如此，尤其是我的学生。
Students do things, they come, they show me something, and I go, and then they feel sad.
学生们做事，他们来了，给我看了一些东西，然后我走了，然后他们感到难过。
But I watch them evolve.
但我看着它们进化。
They evolve.
他们不断进化。
They all get better at it, and then they do this transition.
他们都变得更好，然后他们进行这种转变。
Graduate students, maybe this is a little academic, graduate students are completely worthless to you for a long time.
研究生，也许这有点学术性了，研究生在很长一段时间里对你来说完全没有价值。
And then-
然后——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not in my experience, but okay.
根据我的经验，不是这样，但是还可以。
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
well, in my world, they have so much to learn before they can do anything.
好吧，在我的世界里，他们在做任何事情之前需要学习很多东西。
That's what I mean.
这就是我的意思。
No, as people, they're valuable.
不，作为人，他们是有价值的。
They're there.
他们就在那里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You mean in terms of data output?
你的意思是数据输出方面？
Yeah.
是的。
Well, they don't know how to interpret the experiment.
好吧，他们不知道如何解释这个实验。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
No, they don't know how to do anything at first.
不，他们一开始不知道该怎么做。
No, they're very valuable to have around.
不，拥有它们非常有价值。
You want young people around.
你想要年轻人在身边。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
You want young, fresh people around, doing things and thinking great thoughts.
你需要年轻、新鲜的人在身边，做事、思考伟大的想法。
But then all of a sudden, they do this transition where they're literally the most valuable person in the lab.
但突然之间，他们就完成了这一转变，他们实际上是实验室中最有价值的人。
And then six months later, they break your heart.
六个月后，他们让你心碎。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They leave.
他们离开了。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
They leave.
他们离开了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, just like you did to your advisors.
是的，就像你对你的顾问所做的那样。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
That's what I always say.
这就是我常说的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, they were all glad to see me go.
哦，他们都很高兴看到我走。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
I was so blessed.
我真是太幸运了。
All my students did great, one's down at UT, one's at University of Utah.
我所有的学生都表现出色，一个在德克萨斯大学，一个在犹他大学。
They're both kicking butt.
他们俩都在踢屁股。
Another graduate student's in biotech, and another one's on the job market now, and I'm just glad I'm not competing with any of them because I will tell you, they are phenomenal.
另一个研究生是生物技术专业的，另一个研究生现在正在就业市场上，我很高兴我没有与他们中的任何一个竞争，因为我会告诉你，他们是非凡的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
I don't take any credit for it.
我不认为有任何功劳。
I did what I could with them, and then one was a postdoc that I just mentioned, but-
我对他们做了我能做的，然后其中一个是我刚才提到的博士后，但是-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's fun to be around, to watch it.
周围、观看它很有趣。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
It's just so cool.
真是太酷了。
The energy of youth and pouring into something with so much focus and not for the money, because Lord knows they don't pay them very much-
年轻人的能量，如此专注地投入到某件事上，而不是为了钱，因为上帝知道他们付给他们的钱不多——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No
否
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
even as professors.
即使作为教授。
What you said about insisting that your kids play at least one sport, I think that also gets back to removing a problem we talked about earlier, which is at least when you're playing a sport, you can't be on your phone.
你所说的坚持让你的孩子至少参加一项运动，我认为这也回到了消除我们之前讨论过的一个问题，那就是至少当你参加一项运动时，你不能玩手机。
Also, if you're really, really tired, it's hard to get in trouble.
而且，如果你真的非常累，就很难惹上麻烦。
It's very hard to get in trouble.
遇到麻烦是非常困难的。
If you're a soccer player, you run, you are shot at the end of the day.
如果你是一名足球运动员，你会奔跑，但最终你会被射杀。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
You just-
你只是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yep.
是的。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
"Hey, let's go drive." "I don't feel like it." So, it's a generic strategy I use, and I just think sports, it's not so that they can be champions.
“嘿嘿，我们开车去吧。” “我不喜欢这样。”所以，这是我使用的通用策略，我只是认为体育运动，并不是为了让他们成为冠军。
It's great if that happens, it's great for them.
如果发生这种事那就太好了，对他们来说也很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
But they challenge you in ways that other elements of your life don't I think of wrestling and you get your air cut off.
但它们以你生活中其他元素所没有的方式挑战你，我认为摔跤会让你的空气被切断。
And the main thing you learn when you're a wrestler is how to manage your rising sense of panic.
当你成为一名摔跤手时，你学到的主要事情就是如何控制不断上升的恐慌感。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Don't panic.
别惊慌。
Think about where you are.
想想你在哪里。
You're not good at that at first.
一开始你并不擅长这个。
When you go into an office and you face your boss or your coworker or something, nobody comes over and chokes you and says, "Now think."
当你走进办公室，面对你的老板或同事或其他什么人时，没有人过来掐住你的嘴说：“现在想一想。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No.
不。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Okay.
好的。
That's the only socially acceptable setting where that kind of thing teaches you what are you going to do?
这是唯一社会可以接受的环境，这种事情会教你要做什么？
Losing is such an amazing, especially when you don't want to lose and you did the absolute best you-
失败是如此令人惊奇，尤其是当你不想失败并且你已经做到了最好的时候——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And in front of people.
并且当着人们的面。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yeah, like track and field, there's only one winner.
是的，就像田径比赛一样，只有一个获胜者。
My kid's been going to these giant meets, these sort of Mid-Atlantic meets, and this is middle school.
我的孩子一直在参加这些大型比赛，比如大西洋中部的比赛，而这是中学。
It's amazing how well-run they are, but there'll be 40 teams there.
令人惊讶的是他们的运作如此之好，但那里将有 40 支球队。
There'll be 60 kids in her event.
她的活动将有 60 名孩子参加。
So if you get second, that's really, really good.
所以如果你获得第二名，那真的非常非常好。
But if you want to win, there's still this little thing that eats at you, and you learn how to manage it.
但如果你想赢，仍然有一些小事困扰着你，你要学会如何管理它。
So I couldn't teach her that.
所以我不能教她这个。
Sport teaches her that.
体育教会了她这一点。
I see those as tests that we don't get put to in the modern world.
我认为这些是我们在现代世界中无法接受的测试。
It used to be different when we ran around in bands, and we literally had to defend ourselves-
当我们成群结队地跑来跑去时，情况就不同了，我们实际上必须保护自己——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
a lot.
很多。
You may have to do something that requires awful things.
你可能不得不做一些需要可怕的事情的事情。
You got to be ready to do an awful thing.
你必须准备好做一件可怕的事情。
Now we're not put in that circumstance.
现在我们没有陷入那种情况。
A lot of modern ills come from, we still have that brain.
现代的很多弊病都来自于我们还有那个大脑。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
And civilization forces you to manage the stress in ways that it's just kind of not designed to do.
文明迫使你以一种不符合其设计的方式来管理压力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's funny because when I was growing up, the sport of choice for me was skateboarding, and there weren't teams or anything like that.
这很有趣，因为在我成长的过程中，我选择的运动是滑板，而且没有团队或类似的东西。
You could get sponsors, and some of us did, but that's not the point.
你可以得到赞助商，我们中的一些人做到了，但这不是重点。
But what I learned from it was pain, pain, pain, pain, fail, pain, pain, made it.
但我从中学到的是痛苦，痛苦，痛苦，痛苦，失败，痛苦，痛苦，成功了。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Those guys-
那些家伙——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Pain, pain.
痛，痛。
And I wasn't good enough to take a career into it.
而且我还不够优秀，无法将其作为职业。
I had friends that were, and a lot of that is done in solitude.
我有一些朋友，其中很多都是在孤独中完成的。
It was a great learning for science, where I was alone in the lab.
对于科学来说，这是一次伟大的学习，我独自一人在实验室里。
My graduate advisor, she was available when I needed her, but I was the only one in the lab, so I worked alone.
我的研究生导师，当我需要她时，她随时待命，但实验室里只有我一个人，所以我独自工作。
She said, "Don't burn down, don't kill yourself.
她说：“不要烧死，不要自杀。
Don't drink the tetrodotoxin."
不要喝河豚毒素。”
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I actually had some pretty good lab accidents from working really long hours late at night, but it was failure, failure, discomfort, failure, failure, got something.
事实上，我在深夜长时间工作时遇到了一些相当不错的实验室事故，但那是失败、失败、不适、失败、失败，得到了一些东西。
Failure, failure, and it felt a lot like that.
失败，失败，感觉很像。
And I remember thinking skateboarding was great because as hard as this is, it's not as hard as falling on concrete.
我记得我认为滑板很棒，因为尽管滑板很困难，但它不像摔在混凝土上那么难。
Same thing when I tried to learn to snowboard, everyone was like, "Snowboarding's pretty tough." I was like, "It's snow." I was like, "Concrete hurts.
同样的事情，当我尝试学习滑雪板时，每个人都说，“滑雪板很难。”我当时想：“下雪了。”我当时想，“混凝土很痛。
Snow is soft, and even the ice pack is softer than..." So it hurt.
雪是软的，连冰袋都比……”所以好痛。
It took me some time to get good at it, but you're like, "Okay.
我花了一些时间才擅长，但你会说：“好吧。
I get it." So I think this actually is directly nested in everything we were talking about before, which is our expectation of whether or not our efforts are worth investing or not.
我明白了。”所以我认为这实际上直接嵌套在我们之前谈论的一切中，这是我们对我们的努力是否值得投资的期望。
Whether or not we update the keep going or quit depends a lot on how we interpret how many pain episodes or rewards we expect to get before we succeed.
我们是否更新继续或放弃在很大程度上取决于我们如何解释在成功之前我们期望获得多少次痛苦或奖励。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
And people can do this.
人们可以做到这一点。
People have cognitive control.
人们有认知控制能力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
People can intend to do something and inhibit your natural instincts to avoid it or to quit or to back away from it.
人们可能打算做某事，但会抑制你的本能来避免它、放弃它或远离它。
So the aversion signals that you would normally flee from have to be sustained-
因此，你通常会逃避的厌恶信号必须持续下去——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
when you're training to do anything like that.
当你训练做类似的事情时。
And it transfers when you're older.
当你变老时它就会转移。
It transfers older.
它转移较旧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, totally.
哦，完全可以。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yeah.
是的。
People that are successful at athletics, people that have just tried to do it, which is why our little school, a little private school in Roanoke, Virginia, has a no-cut policy.
那些在体育运动上取得成功的人，那些刚刚尝试这样做的人，这就是为什么我们的小学校，弗吉尼亚州罗阿诺克的一所小型私立学校，有一项不减免政策。
So I think there were 45 kids on the tennis team last year.
所以我认为去年网球队中有 45 名孩子。
It was almost unmanageable.
这几乎是无法控制的。
But they're all out there, and they compete at the level they can compete at, and they win and lose, and it's just a great level.
但他们都在那里，他们在他们可以竞争的水平上竞争，他们赢了也输了，这只是一个伟大的水平。
I can't teach a kid a lesson that good.
我无法给孩子上那么好的一课。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
And that's training these same systems.
这就是训练这些相同的系统。
It is.
这是。
Expectations, disappointment, elation, recovery, do it again.
期待、失望、兴高采烈、恢复，再做一次。
It's all built in.
一切都是内置的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, LMNT.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 LMNT。
LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.
LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。
That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar.
这意味着电解质、钠、镁和钾的比例都正确，但不含糖。
Proper hydration is critical for brain and body function.
适当的水合作用对于大脑和身体功能至关重要。
Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish your cognitive and physical performance.
即使是轻微程度的脱水也会降低您的认知和身体表现。
It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes.
获得充足的电解质也很重要。
The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are vital for the functioning of all cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells.
电解质（钠、镁和钾）对于体内所有细胞（尤其是神经元或神经细胞）的功能至关重要。
Drinking LMNT makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes.
饮用 LMNT 可以轻松确保您获得足够的水分和电解质。
My days tend to start really fast, meaning I have to jump right into work or right into exercise.
我的日子往往开始得很快，这意味着我必须立即投入工作或立即锻炼。
So to make sure that I'm hydrated and I have sufficient electrolytes, when I first wake up in the morning, I drink 16 to 32 ounces of water with an LMNT packet dissolved in it.
因此，为了确保我有足够的水分和足够的电解质，当我早上第一次醒来时，我会喝 16 至 32 盎司的水，其中溶解有 LMNT 包。
I also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes.
我还会在进行任何体育锻炼时饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT，尤其是在炎热的日子里，当我大量出汗并失去水和电解质时。
LMNT has a bunch of great-tasting flavors.
LMNT 有很多美味的口味。
In fact, I love them all.
事实上，我爱他们所有人。
I love the watermelon, the raspberry, the citrus, and I really love the lemonade flavor.
我喜欢西瓜、覆盆子、柑橘，而且我真的很喜欢柠檬水的味道。
So if you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with any purchase.
因此，如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman，购买任意商品即可领取免费的 LMNT 样品包。
Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.
再次强调，请访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman 索取免费样品包。
I'm going to come back to your athletic career, but I want to ask about meditation and breathing.
我要回到你的运动生涯，但我想问一下关于冥想和呼吸的问题。
I think of meditation as some variant on close your eyes, focus on your internal state direct your attention to your breathing or your forehead.
我认为冥想是闭上眼睛的某种变体，专注于你的内部状态，将你的注意力转移到你的呼吸或前额上。
I know there are walking meditations, open monitoring meditations, but I think most laboratory and most people when they think meditating, they're doing something like what I just described.
我知道有步行冥想、开放式监控冥想，但我认为大多数实验室和大多数人当他们思考冥想时，他们正在做我刚才描述的事情。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think of it as a perceptual exercise first, like you're deliberately setting your perception internally, not externally.
我首先将其视为一种感知练习，就像你有意在内部而不是外部设置你的感知一样。
I understand there's these insights into consciousness, improved sleep, reduced stress, but that's all secondary and tertiary to me.
我知道有这些关于意识、改善睡眠、减轻压力的见解，但这对我来说都是第二和第三位的。
What is the consequence of doing the practice of meditation, directing your state inward as opposed to outward, eyes closed, focusing inward, breathing in a controlled way?
进行冥想练习，将你的状态引导向内而不是向外，闭上眼睛，集中注意力向内，以受控的方式呼吸，会产生什么结果？
What does that do to dopamine and serotonin, and/or what are dopamine and serotonin just doing when you go from a conversation that we're having to a meditation?
这对多巴胺和血清素有什么作用，和/或当你从谈话进入冥想时，多巴胺和血清素正在做什么？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
So we've been doing experiments on this with my graduate student, Nishka Raheja, who went to The Ohio State University and then worked in a guy called Jeff Schoenbaum's lab at the Intramural Program in Baltimore.
所以我们一直在和我的研究生 Nishka Raheja 一起做这个实验，他去了俄亥俄州立大学，然后在巴尔的摩校内项目的 Jeff Schoenbaum 实验室工作。
This is at NIDA, National Institute of Drug Abuse.
这是在 NIDA（国家药物滥用研究所）。
Came highly recommended to me.
强烈推荐给我。
And so she wants to study the neural basis of mindfulness meditation.
因此她想研究正念冥想的神经基础。
She's herself a meditator.
她自己就是一位冥想者。
There's a whole bunch of narrative that you put on top of this thing, and I'm a little bit of a feet on the ground, real simple mind simple.
你在这件事上加上了一大堆叙述，而我有点脚踏实地，真正简单的头脑简单。
So I said, "I'll do that, but we're going to do all these breathing experiments first." And so she's been in two settings.
所以我说，“我会这么做，但我们要先做所有这些呼吸实验。”所以她有两种情况。
One is recording from the amygdala, the anterior cingulate cortex of the hippocampus, while people are doing structured breathing.
一种是在人们进行结构化呼吸时从杏仁核（海马体的前扣带皮层）进行记录。
This is her instructing them to inhale one, two, three, four, hold, exhale.
这是她指导他们吸气一、二、三、四、屏住、呼气。
Okay.
好的。
I sit here, and I'm not instructed to do anything.
我坐在这里，没有人指示我做任何事。
I'm just breathing.
我只是在呼吸。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just free form.
只是自由形式。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Free form breathing.
自由呼吸。
Well, it cycles with it.
好吧，它随之循环。
Norepinephrine and dopamine cycle with the breathing cycle.
去甲肾上腺素和多巴胺的循环随呼吸循环而变化。
The most interesting-
最有趣的是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
On inhale, exhale, or overall, they change as you do this?
在吸气、呼气或整体上，当你这样做时它们会发生变化吗？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
That kind of granular detail-
那种细致入微的细节——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
is waiting on-
正在等待——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay
好的
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
numbers.
数字。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
But the general gist now, this is from deep structures in the brain, is that easy breathing, you can just see, it is like a metronome.
但现在的总体要点是，这是来自大脑深层结构的，是轻松的呼吸，你可以看到，它就像一个节拍器。
The amplitude of the neurotransmitter fluctuations follows the inhale/exhale cycles.
神经递质波动的幅度遵循吸气/呼气周期。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
It's right with it.
就这样吧。
It's very easy.
这很容易。
You feel like you're watching the brain stem work.
你感觉自己正在观察脑干的运作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
So when I tell you-
所以当我告诉你——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
breathe in two, three, four, hold, da, da, and now exhale, okay.
吸气二、三、四，屏住，哒，哒，然后呼气，好吧。
All hell doesn't break loose, but it becomes hard for them to follow, and the transmitters are kind of wiggling and wobbling, too.
地狱并没有失去控制，但他们变得很难跟上，而且发射器也有点摇晃。
Okay, so that's in people that are in the epilepsy monitoring unit.
好的，这就是癫痫监测部门的人员。
This is taking place at Phoenix, at Banner Hospital, with our colleague, Robert Biiner.
这是由我们的同事罗伯特·比纳在凤凰城的班纳医院进行的。
The most exciting stuff is using this probe that we can put up the nose of healthy people and do the same sort of thing, and we see generally the same sort of thing.
最令人兴奋的事情是使用这个探针，我们可以把健康人的鼻子放在上面，做同样的事情，我们通常会看到同样的事情。
The whole instructed breathing, you have to engage cognitive control over it, and you're differentially adequate at doing that.
在整个指导呼吸过程中，你必须对其进行认知控制，而你在这方面的能力有所不同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So they're doing structured breathing.
所以他们正在进行结构化呼吸。
Does dopamine track, map onto the breathing?
多巴胺会追踪、映射到呼吸吗？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yes.
是的。
But the interesting thing is, we have people playing an economic exchange game.
但有趣的是，我们有人在玩经济交换游戏。
It's called an ultimatum game.
这被称为最后通牒游戏。
Ultimatum game should be labeled, take it or leave it.
最后通牒游戏应该贴上标签，要么接受要么放弃。
I have $20.
我有 20 美元。
I'm going to offer you a split, eight to you, 12 to me.
我给你平分，八分给你，十二分给我。
Okay?
好的？
Control passes to you.
控制权交给你了。
You're going to either accept that, in which case we walk away with eight for you and 12 for me, or you're going to reject it, in which case no one gets anything.
你要么接受，在这种情况下，我们会为你拿走 8 个，为我拿走 12 个；要么你会拒绝，在这种情况下，没有人会得到任何东西。
What do people do?
人们做什么？
Well, they see the inequity across the players as a signal, and at about 80/20, you're indifferent.
好吧，他们将玩家之间的不平等视为一个信号，而在大约 80/20 的情况下，你就无动于衷了。
In other words, 80% to me, 20% offered to you, 50% of the time you're going to say, "I'll take it," 50% of the time you're going to send me a signal and say, "Go home.
换句话说，80%给我，20%给你，50%的时候你会说，“我会接受”，50%的时候你会向我发送一个信号，说，“回家吧。”
I'm not taking that money." So nobody gets anything at a cost to you.
我不会拿这笔钱。”所以没有人会以你付出代价来得到任何东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
When you reject it, it's at a cost to you.
当你拒绝它时，你就要付出代价。
The pattern that we see recording up the nose, the breathing is registered cleanly with the peroxide signal, which is a proxy for mitochondrial function, and the dopamine signal, and the norepi signal.
我们看到的记录鼻子、呼吸的模式与过氧化物信号（线粒体功能的代表）、多巴胺信号和去角皮信号清晰地记录在一起。
So as this pattern of exchange is going on between the two of us, if you're going to update a model, in other words, if the signal across the two of us is such that you have to do some learning, it's like your maximum breathing is tracking when you're going to need oxygen in the mitochondria to produce ATP to make an update that's going to be allowed by the dopamine signal.
因此，当这种交换模式在我们两个人之间进行时，如果你要更新一个模型，换句话说，如果我们两个人之间的信号是这样的，你必须做一些学习，就像你的最大呼吸正在跟踪，当你需要线粒体中的氧气来产生 ATP 来进行多巴胺信号允许的更新时。
It's the most amazing looking data I've ever seen.
这是我见过的最令人惊奇的数据。
And this is, in other words, your breathing and your dopamine signal in your nasal epithelium seems registered depending on the demands of the task and the elements of the task.
换句话说，你的呼吸和鼻上皮中的多巴胺信号似乎根据任务的要求和任务的要素进行记录。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is this why you refer to dopamine as a currency?
这就是您将多巴胺称为货币的原因吗？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yes.
是的。
I refer to it as a currency mainly for the reason that a currency is used.
我将其称为货币主要是因为使用货币。
It's a way to take dissimilar objects and assign a common value scheme to them.
这是一种获取不同对象并为其分配共同值方案的方法。
Like if I were going to trade cups for windshields-
就像我要用杯子换挡风玻璃一样——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
it's easier, unless we're going to haul a bunch of windshields and cups to the trading site, it's much easier to say, "This is worth something in a currency I understand that you agree to, and agree to some price."
这更容易，除非我们要把一堆挡风玻璃和杯子拖到交易地点，否则更容易说，“这值钱，我知道你同意，并同意某个价格。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A lot of times, I think it doesn't matter if you're talking about the US dollar, the euro, or Bitcoin, dopamine is the underlying currency.
很多时候，我认为无论你谈论的是美元、欧元还是比特币，多巴胺都是基础货币。
Doesn't matter if you're talking about wins in sport or other kind of more evolutionarily adaptive type examples, like dopamine is the currency.
如果你谈论的是体育比赛的胜利或其他更具进化适应性的例子，比如多巴胺是货币，这并不重要。
It actually can provide some method for resilience, in my experience.
根据我的经验，它实际上可以提供一些恢复能力的方法。
You'll notice in human dynamics online, because I spend a fair amount of time there, that people will try and rob people of their sort of message by taking potshots at them or something.
你会注意到，在网上的人类动态中，因为我在那里花了相当多的时间，人们会试图通过对人们进行攻击或其他什么方式来窃取他们的信息。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And in science, you see legitimate critique and you see illegitimate critique, right?
在科学中，你会看到合法的批评，也会看到非法的批评，对吧？
Same thing in human dynamics that you observe online.
你在网上观察到的人类动态也是如此。
There's real lessons to be learned from some of the critique, but sometimes people are just trying to rob people of whatever impact they're having.
从一些批评中我们可以学到真正的教训，但有时人们只是试图剥夺人们所产生的影响。
And so you can think of one's own dopamine, one's own level of motivation.
所以你可以想想一个人自己的多巴胺，一个人自己的动机水平。
Are you going to let somebody rob you of this currency?
你会让别人抢走你的货币吗？
We're not aware that we're using dopamine as currency, but ultimately, the person who's winning has more energy to go do more winning.
我们不知道我们正在使用多巴胺作为货币，但最终，获胜的人有更多的精力去赢得更多胜利。
People who are losing sometimes dissolve into a puddle of their own tears, or worse, other times they try and rob other people of their currency.
失败的人有时会泪流满面，或者更糟糕的是，有时他们会试图抢夺别人的货币。
And this is the notion of zero-sum versus non-zero-sum games.
这就是零和游戏与非零和游戏的概念。
And when I step back now and I look at the media landscape, the political landscape, the social dynamics at large, I always think of dopamine as the currency.
现在，当我退后一步，审视媒体格局、政治格局和整个社会动态时，我总是将多巴胺视为货币。
If we're really honest about what's happening in the world, it's a battle over resources, and all those resources ratchet back down to this one single molecule.
如果我们真的诚实地对待世界上正在发生的事情，那就是一场资源之战，所有这些资源都会回到这个单一的分子。
It's really incredible.
实在是太不可思议了。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Well, these same systems.
嗯，这些相同的系统。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Systems, yes.
系统，是的。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
The systems.
系统。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, because they're working as a coordinated system.
是的，因为它们是作为一个协调系统工作的。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Dopamine turns on mitochondria.
多巴胺会激活线粒体。
Gives you life.
给你生命。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's probably the key.
这可能是关键。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
It literally turns on mitochondria.
它确实打开了线粒体。
It binds to the outside of mitochondria to monoamine oxidase.
它与线粒体外部的单胺氧化酶结合。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
And it gens up electron transport.
它会产生电子传输。
It's a signal to make ATP available.
这是使 ATP 可用的信号。
That's a really direct connection.
这是一种非常直接的联系。
Now, what neuroscience hasn't understood very well is the connection between the algorithms that the dopamine runs, the computations, and the combustion.
现在，神经科学还不太了解多巴胺运行的算法、计算和燃烧之间的联系。
So if you touch your forehead-
所以如果你触摸你的额头——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
your forehead is merely warm, right?
你的额头只是温暖的，对吧？
Now, if you touched a computer in a server center, if you could get your finger near the chip, it would burn your finger.
现在，如果你触摸服务器中心的计算机，如果你的手指靠近芯片，就会烧伤你的手指。
And if you turn the air conditioning off in a server center, within minutes, they burst into flame.
如果你关闭服务器中心的空调，几分钟之内它们就会起火。
The whole thing would go up in smoke.
整件事都会化为泡影。
They're mainly generating heat.
它们主要产生热量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Okay.
好的。
There's a big market play here-
这里有一个很大的市场——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
to make chips that run and do the same computing, but on 40% of the power.
制造运行和执行相同计算的芯片，但功耗降低 40%。
Server centers are amazingly, and just our computing machinery is amazingly inefficient.
服务器中心令人惊讶，而我们的计算机器效率却低得惊人。
And so there's great things to come-
所以还有很多伟大的事情即将发生——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
as people take on this problem.
当人们面对这个问题时。
But we don't understand how it is that we get away to run our entire brain on 23 watts.
但我们不明白为什么我们的整个大脑能够以 23 瓦的功率运行。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, earlier when we were talking about sleep and we talked about meditation, I want to make sure that I at least offer you the opportunity to speculate, what do you think the kind of rejuvenative properties of sleep and meditation are?
好吧，早些时候当我们谈论睡眠和冥想时，我想确保我至少为您提供了推测的机会，您认为睡眠和冥想的恢复活力是什么？
For instance, however little you need to sleep, if you don't sleep for two days, you are a different beast altogether.
例如，无论你需要的睡眠时间有多少，如果你两天不睡觉，你就完全是一个不同的野兽。
And sure, adenosine goes up and the inflammatory markers go up.
当然，腺苷会上升，炎症标记物也会上升。
There are a lot of reasons for that, but motivation goes way down.
造成这种情况的原因有很多，但动力却大大下降。
Dopamine dynamics change completely, right?
多巴胺动态完全改变，对吗？
So what do you think allows us to replenish this currency in sleep?
那么你认为是什么让我们能够在睡眠中补充这种货币呢？
What is it?
它是什么？
Is it the slow breathing in meditation and sleep that allows it?
是冥想和睡眠中缓慢的呼吸允许的吗？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
It's a combination of physiological responses and the algorithmic cleaning up.
它是生理反应和算法清理的结合。
It's a computational device.
它是一个计算设备。
At least we see it as a computational device.
至少我们将其视为一种计算设备。
That's the modern metaphor for how we go in and understand it, and it has to erase stuff.
这就是我们如何进入并理解它的现代隐喻，它必须删除一些东西。
You need a time off.
你需要休息一段时间。
You can't have information streams processing through when you need to be going, "I'm not going to save all that," or, "I'm going to consolidate that."
当您需要“我不会保存所有这些”或“我要整合它们”时，您无法处理信息流。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
A lot of it's about erasure and homeostasis and recovery.
其中很多都是关于擦除、体内平衡和恢复。
That translates physically into recycling transmitters-
这在物理上转化为回收发射器-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
and rebuilding all that.
并重建这一切。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because there's nothing like the kind of motivation we feel after a great night's sleep, the way we interpret events.
因为没有什么比我们在一夜安眠后所感受到的动力和我们解释事件的方式更好的了。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
And all animals sleep.
所有的动物都会睡觉。
It used to be thought the echidna didn't have REM sleep, but that's false.
过去人们认为针鼹没有快速眼动睡眠，但这是错误的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's the first time the echidna's been mentioned on this podcast.
这是这个播客第一次提到针鼹。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Okay, there we go.
好的，我们开始吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You may not want to go here, so feel free to say pass, but I'm very interested in the relationship between dopamine and other neuromodulators and time perception.
你可能不想去这里，所以尽管说通过，但我对多巴胺和其他神经调节剂与时间感知之间的关系非常感兴趣。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Ah.
啊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could we start with a general exploration of this?
我们可以先对此进行一般性的探索吗？
So really, in the simplest way, if dopamine levels are artificially increased with a drug, what happens to time perception?
那么，实际上，以最简单的方式，如果用药物人为地增加多巴胺水平，时间感知会发生什么？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
It changes.
它改变了。
One of the things that's latent in any description of what dopamine is doing, either from a point of view of psychology or algorithms that I focus on, is timing.
无论是从心理学的角度还是从我关注的算法的角度来看，在对多巴胺作用的任何描述中，隐藏的一件事就是时间。
Okay, so to learn something is to suppress the statement.
好吧，所以学习一些东西就是压制这个陈述。
You learn something about what's going to happen when and how much.
你会了解到什么时候会发生什么以及发生的程度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
What, where, when, and how.
内容、地点、时间和方式。
And so you have to have a lot of clocks in there.
所以你必须在那里有很多时钟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Okay?
好吧？
As you well know, it used to be thought we had this one area, the suprachiasmatic nucleus, it set daylight cycles, et cetera, and all, and that was one of the main sources of clocks.
如您所知，过去人们认为我们有这个区域，即视交叉上核，它设定日光周期等等，这是时钟的主要来源之一。
Now what we know is every cell in your body has clocks in it, and multiple clocks.
现在我们知道你体内的每个细胞都有时钟，而且是多个时钟。
This is true for using these dopamine signals, too.
对于使用这些多巴胺信号也是如此。
You not only have to have clocks, you have to be able to register the time that something was happening.
你不仅需要有时钟，还必须能够记录某件事发生的时间。
Now, I don't know exactly how that's done, but we just know that the system learns particular times and whatnot.
现在，我不知道这是如何完成的，但我们只知道系统会学习特定的时间等等。
And so, those almost certainly have to be rejuvenated and reset.
因此，这些几乎肯定需要重新焕发活力和重置。
There's a whole literature in rodents called the interval timing literature-
有一篇关于啮齿类动物的文献称为间隔计时文献——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
where you teach an animal to anticipate something at a particular time in the near future.
你教动物预测不久的将来某个特定时间的某些事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
A few seconds.
几秒钟。
And dopamine plays a critical role in that, and there's a group in London, I forget the PI's name Who uses that and uses manipulations in humans of dopamine, dopaminergic drugs to look at time perception changes, but these are whole body.
多巴胺在这方面起着至关重要的作用，伦敦有一个小组，我忘记了 PI 的名字，谁使用它并在人类中使用多巴胺、多巴胺能药物来观察时间感知的变化，但这些是整个身体。
They're like, "What did you perceive?"
他们会问，“你看到了什么？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is there a simple statement that we can make, like if you increase dopamine pharmacologically, does your perception of time shift to it moving faster or slower?
我们是否可以做出一个简单的陈述，例如如果您通过药物增加多巴胺，您对时间的感知会变快还是变慢？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No.
不。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
I'm not saying no to that.
我并不是对此说不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
I'm saying that there's no bromide for that.
我是说没有溴化物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All we do know is that people who smoke cannabis oftentimes think a long period of time went by, and they find out that a very short period of time actually went by.
我们所知道的是，吸食大麻的人常常认为已经过去了很长一段时间，但他们发现实际上已经过去了很短的一段时间。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Also, people on methylphenidate, people on Ritalin, will report that.
此外，服用哌醋甲酯、服用利他林的人也会报告这一点。
They lose time.
他们失去了时间。
Now, presumably, they're concentrating for longer periods of time.
现在，想必他们的注意力集中时间更长了。
It has the sound of multiple systems, not all of which you're conscious of.
它具有多个系统的声音，但并非所有您都意识到。
I could start naming the people.
我可以开始命名这些人了。
I know this literature in rodents on interval timing, and there are beautiful relationships between the dopamine signaling and the timing, but there haven't been experiments where you could open up the modern understanding of it as the key in reinforcement learning that goes on.
我知道啮齿类动物关于间隔计时的文献，多巴胺信号传导和计时之间存在着美妙的关系，但还没有实验可以让你打开对它的现代理解，将其作为强化学习的关键。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you track time well on the order of a day?
你能很好地记录一天的时间吗？
As you move through your day, are you aware of how much time has passed?
当你度过一天时，你知道已经过去了多少时间吗？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Terrible.
太糟糕了。
I'm awful.
我太糟糕了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
I'm awful with directions and time.
我对方向和时间感到很糟糕。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can you orient well in space?
你能在太空中很好地定位吗？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Well, if you tell me where the sun is.
好吧，如果你告诉我太阳在哪里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
You mean my body?
你是说我的身体吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
I know where my body is in space.
我知道我的身体在太空中的位置。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, you're kinesthetically, you were a competitive athlete, so that makes sense.
嗯，从动觉上来说，你是一名竞技运动员，所以这是有道理的。
No, I mean it-
不，我是说真的——
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
I am stereo blind.
我是立体声盲。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, yeah?
哦，是吗？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
That's so weird.
那太奇怪了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Ramachandran came to New York when I was in the audience.
当我在观众席时，拉马钱德兰来到了纽约。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Your depth perception is messed up?
你的深度知觉混乱了？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Well, apparently.
嗯，显然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But you were a javelin thrower.
但你是一名标枪运动员。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
I pitched baseballs until I was 15.
我一直投棒球直到 15 岁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You probably used one eye.
你可能用的是一只眼睛。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
It's the kinetic depth effect, right?
这是动力学深度效应，对吧？
Where you shake your head and the motion-
你摇头和动作的地方——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Motion parallax.
运动视差。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Motion parallax.
运动视差。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You move your head from side to side.
您将头从一侧移动到另一侧。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Maybe.
也许吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Ramachandran was a famous visual psychophysics guy from UCSD, came, and he was showing all these pictures, and he goes, "Can anyone in here not see the thing?" I couldn't see anything.
拉马钱德兰是加州大学圣地亚哥分校著名的视觉心理物理学家，他来了，他展示了所有这些图片，然后他说：“这里有人看不到这个东西吗？”我什么也看不见。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
He goes, "Oh, you're stereo blind." It's about, I don't know, 5% or something.
他说：“哦，你是立体盲。”我不知道，大概是 5% 之类的。
You probably have a hard time with barriers, and I was a hurdler in high school and college, and throwing balls, and I also pole vaulted, and I was left-handed until I was eight, and my mother made me switch my hands.
你可能很难克服障碍，我在高中和大学时是跨栏运动员，投掷球，我也撑杆跳高，我八岁之前都是左撇子，我妈妈让我换双手。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Rough.
粗糙。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
It's a right-handed world.
这是一个右撇子的世界。
You go into your classroom, you count the number of left-handed desks, and I came back, I said, "There's one." "There you go.
你走进教室，数一下左手桌子的数量，然后我回来，我说：“有一张。” “就这样吧。
You're going to use your right hand now." She was horrified when I cut my food and flipped the fork over in my left hand instead of switching hands, and-
现在你要用你的右手了。”当我切食物并用左手翻转叉子而不是换手时，她感到震惊，而且——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Well, you got some brain plasticity out of it, no doubt.
嗯，毫无疑问，你从中获得了一些大脑可塑性。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Probably.
可能吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I asked if you track time well, because I think that this is totally just observation.
我问你是否善于跟踪时间，因为我认为这完全只是观察。
I think that all the people that I know that are very driven, who have more of a, I don't like to use clinical terms non-clinically, but more of an obsessive nature than more ADHD-like, seem to not track time well.
我认为所有我认识的人都非常有动力，他们有更多的，我不喜欢在非临床上使用临床术语，但更多的是一种强迫性质，而不是更多的多动症，似乎不能很好地跟踪时间。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they're able to just throw themselves into things, and discard with thoughts about the rest of the world.
他们能够全身心地投入到事情中，并抛弃对世界其他地方的思考。
And I think about this a lot because of a generation of people who grew up constantly being bombarded with information from all over the world, all day long.
我经常思考这个问题，因为这一代人在成长过程中整天不断受到来自世界各地的信息轰炸。
It just feels and sounds so noisy to me.
对我来说，感觉和听起来都很吵。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I saw an interesting article recently that the generation that grew up with social media and smartphones-
而且最近看到一篇很有趣的文章，是伴随着社交媒体和智能手机长大的一代——
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
there's some interesting data that they may not track time the same way on the order of a day, but also in terms of their life arc.
有一些有趣的数据表明，他们可能不会以一天的方式跟踪时间，而且在他们的生命弧方面也是如此。
And it makes it harder for them to envision long-term goals, and I think it's an interesting, but still emerging literature.
这让他们更难设想长期目标，我认为这是一本有趣但仍在新兴的文献。
But it kind of makes sense if the dopamine system is involved in this, and if it's kind of mapped to very short-term contingencies.
但如果多巴胺系统参与其中，并且它映射到非常短期的突发事件，那就有意义了。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
I grew up where I would wander forests for hours and hours and hours.
在我长大的地方，我会在森林里漫步几个小时、几个小时、几个小时。
And you weren't monitored by your parents.
而且你没有受到父母的监控。
You left in the morning, and you were supposed to show up by dark or something.
你早上就出发了，本来应该在天黑之类的时候出现的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
And people didn't worry about their children as much.
人们也不太担心他们的孩子。
Maybe this wasn't the right thing to do, but this is the way it went.
也许这不是正确的做法，但事情就是这样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
If you wanted information, you had to go find it somewhere.
如果你想要信息，你必须去某个地方找到它。
And it's so much calmer than the things that our kids are embedded in.
这比我们孩子所处的环境要平静得多。
I think it's different.
我认为这是不同的。
I'm not sure it's also pathological.
我不确定这也是病态的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
The adults in the room all share a worry over it, but we don't know really what to do.
房间里的大人都对此感到担忧，但我们真的不知道该怎么办。
I don't think we do.
我不认为我们这样做。
And then these large language models, I don't know how much you talk to them, but they speak 180 languages.
然后这些大型语言模型，我不知道你和他们聊了多少，但他们说 180 种语言。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I use Claude.
我用克劳德.
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
I love Claude.
我爱克劳德。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love Claude AI.
我爱克劳德·艾伊。
I love the interface.
我喜欢这个界面。
I think the answers it, I use it for research from time to time.
我认为答案是这样的，我时不时用它来进行研究。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Do you ask it to summarize areas for you?
你要求它为你总结领域吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I ask it to direct me to literatures.
我请求它引导我走向文学。
I guess I've asked it for some summaries here and there, but I've asked it to compare and contrast things, which is really cool, because I can't do that in PubMed.
我想我已经要求它到处进行一些总结，但我要求它比较和对比事物，这真的很酷，因为我在 PubMed 中无法做到这一点。
I can't go into PubMed and say, "Compare and contrast Reed Montague's picture of dopamine to someone else's." But Claude can do that.
我不能进入 PubMed 并说：“将里德·蒙塔古的多巴胺图像与其他人的进行比较和对比。”但克劳德可以做到。
It can set up a five-person panel around a topic in Claude.
它可以围绕克劳德的某个主题设立一个五人小组。
I use it more and more these days, and I love it.
这些天我越来越多地使用它，并且我喜欢它。
I also really like the interface.
我也非常喜欢这个界面。
It's very clean.
非常干净。
And I care about aesthetics, and I think it's awesome.
我关心美学，我认为这很棒。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
The game I've been in isn't the artificial intelligence end or even the neurobiology end.
我参与的游戏不是人工智能端，甚至不是神经生物学端。
I've been at the interface of those two.
我一直在这两者的界面上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
So I've lived in a narrow space that shuttles ...
于是我就生活在狭小的空间里穿梭……
stuff from one world into the other world.
东西从一个世界到另一个世界。
I've used algorithms to organize biological observations, basically.
基本上，我已经使用算法来组织生物观察结果。
I'm the middleman in a way.
我在某种程度上是中间人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
I never thought this neural network training would scale the way it has.
我从未想过这种神经网络训练会达到现在的规模。
I would never have guessed the way it does.
我永远不会猜到它是怎么做的。
And I know there are the dissenting voices-
我知道也有不同的声音——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The doomsday people
末日的人们
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
yeah, it doesn't really do very well.
是的，它确实做得不太好。
Well, compared to who?
那么，和谁相比呢？
Does anyone know anyone else that can speak 170 languages, that can translate 170 languages?
还有人认识能说 170 种语言、能翻译 170 种语言的人吗？
I don't know anyone that can translate accurately 170 languages.
我不知道有谁能准确翻译 170 种语言。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What do you use it for?
你用它做什么？
Things like Claude, do you use it as a kind of a search engine or?
像克劳德这样的东西，你把它用作一种搜索引擎还是？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Well, I ask it, what's the relationship between the subjunctive mood and the use of complex numbers in non-relativistic quantum mechanics?
好吧，我问它，虚拟语气与非相对论量子力学中复数的使用之间有什么关系？
I asked it that recently.
我最近这么问过。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just for fun.
只是为了好玩。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
In quantum mechanics, at least not quantum field theory, but in quantum mechanics, the ways things might happen influence the probability of the way they actually turn out, okay?
在量子力学中，至少不是量子场论，但在量子力学中，事情发生的方式会影响它们实际发生的概率，好吗？
Whether or not you traverse that, you have to add up all those possibilities, right?
无论你是否遍历它，你都必须将所有这些可能性加起来，对吧？
It's like a counterfactual.
这就像反事实。
It's like a mathematical rendering of a counterfactual, but it's based on experiments people have done in the real world for 100 years.
这就像反事实的数学呈现，但它基于人们 100 年来在现实世界中所做的实验。
And the subjunctive mood and conditional is the same sort of thing.
虚拟语气和条件语气是同一类东西。
Once we discovered how to speak language, we discovered how to make reference to the thing that would be if something else had happened.
一旦我们发现了如何说话，我们就发现了如何提及如果发生了其他事情就会发生的事情。
They're sort of the same.
他们有点一样。
I didn't say anything but just, what's the relationship between that?
我什么也没说，只是，这之间有什么关系？
And it wrote this beautiful little essay, as it were.
可以说，它写了这篇美丽的小文章。
And I just thought, okay, I don't really care whether it maps onto some notion of consciousness or smart or...
我只是想，好吧，我真的不在乎它是否映射到意识或聪明或......的某种概念。
I don't know anybody that could do that.
我不知道有谁能做到这一点。
I don't know any person that could do that.
我不知道有谁能做到这一点。
And it's a better writer than I am.
而且他是一个比我更好的作家。
Maybe that's me, but I'm just blown away by it.
也许这就是我，但我只是被它震撼了。
And I'm more blown away by the reinforcement learning guys, the David Silvers and the Go groups and the AlphaFold, and they solved the protein folding problem.
我更被强化学习团队、David Silvers、Go 小组和 AlphaFold 所震撼，他们解决了蛋白质折叠问题。
DeepMind, the company that was owned by Google in...
DeepMind 是谷歌旗下的一家公司...
So I guess Google won one, two, three, four, they were three Nobel Prizes or something this time.
所以我猜谷歌这次赢得了一个、两个、三个、四个，他们是三个诺贝尔奖之类的。
Well, the thing that happened, AlphaFold is the program that takes DNA sequences and predicts protein structure.
好吧，事情发生了，AlphaFold 是一个获取 DNA 序列并预测蛋白质结构的程序。
And this is what Jumper and Hassabis got the Nobel Prize for.
这就是詹珀和哈萨比斯获得诺贝尔奖的原因。
That's a problem that the NIH has probably spent $100 billion on for the last 70 years, okay?
NIH 在过去 70 年里可能已经花费了 1000 亿美元来解决这个问题，好吗？
They've also spent money on people crystallizing proteins and seeing where the atoms are and whatnot.
他们还花钱让人结晶蛋白质并观察原子的位置等等。
And what they showed is they can develop a mapping between the sequence and the predicted protein structure, which is just, it was stunning to me.
他们展示的是他们可以在序列和预测的蛋白质结构之间建立映射，这对我来说是令人震惊的。
Now, it required all that crystallography data, but their general approach was treating it like a game, like they had treated Go, where you do this reinforcement learning thing, and you take a long sequence of moves, and the game ends, and you get an outcome, win or lose, and that's enough to train up the best player that's ever existed in history.
现在，它需要所有的晶体学数据，但他们的一般方法是将其视为游戏，就像他们对待围棋一样，你进行强化学习，你采取一长串的动作，游戏结束，你得到一个结果，赢或输，这足以训练历史上曾经存在过的最好的棋手。
And then they used AlphaGo Zero to train up to be a grandmaster chess player.
然后他们使用 AlphaGo Zero 训练成为一名国际象棋大师。
Back a few years ago, it took 30 or 40 days, and I think they're down to, from scratch.
几年前，需要 30 或 40 天，我认为他们从头开始。
So, if anybody's going to write a history book on that, those are historical breakthroughs, really.
因此，如果有人要就此写一本历史书，那么这些确实是历史性突破。
And those algorithms are installed in our heads.
这些算法被安装在我们的头脑中。
Biology discovered that this is the way to handle the reality that whatever it is, given the constructs that are generated by our brains, and it keeps us alive.
生物学发现，这是处理现实的方法，无论现实是什么，考虑到我们大脑生成的结构，它都能让我们活下去。
That's just the start is what I think.
我认为这只是开始。
In other words, the neural reinforcement learning world is going to continue to grow.
换句话说，神经强化学习世界将继续发展。
It's going to explode.
它会爆炸。
We're going to really start to understand that, and we may even understand how to engineer it.
我们将真正开始理解这一点，甚至可能理解如何设计它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's say somebody wants to get better at understanding where they're at in the whole learning, motivation, reward contingency, dopamine thing.
假设有人想要更好地了解自己在整个学习、动机、奖励意外事件、多巴胺方面的状况。
They're not going to drop a wire into their brain.
他们不会把一根电线扔进他们的大脑。
They may or may not be able to participate in one of these experiments, but let's say somebody wants to kind of just reflect on where they are strong and where they are weak at the level of the algorithms they're running.
他们可能会也可能不会参与这些实验之一，但假设有人想反思一下他们在运行的算法层面上的强项和弱项。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Ah.
啊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not suggesting you necessarily have anything for them right now, but aside from telling them to go play a competitive sport-
我并不是建议你现在一定要为他们提供任何东西，但除了告诉他们去参加竞技运动之外-
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
I have a postdoc that's making a company that's going to commercialize these things up people's noses when he goes from skunkworks to kinder and gentler, and you could hack your own serotonin onto your cell phone.
我有一个博士后，他正在创建一家公司，当他从臭鼬工厂变得更友善、更温和时，他将把这些东西商业化，你可以将自己的血清素侵入你的手机。
You could put it up there, and you could go do a thing, and you could watch it on your cell phone.
你可以把它放在那里，你可以去做一件事，你可以在你的手机上观看它。
And we've never had anything like that before.
我们以前从未有过这样的事情。
Like, I wonder what happens when I do this.
就像，我想知道当我这样做时会发生什么。
I know I feel...
我知道我感觉...
What happens when I solve a Scrabble puzzle, or what happens when I...
当我解决拼字游戏时会发生什么，或者当我...
You could do it yourself.
你可以自己做。
That's his goal is to take this company and put it into a commercial space where people could make personal use of it.
他的目标是将这家公司投入商业空间，供人们个人使用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh my God, I can give this to this person who's asking me about their dating life, and they can figure out how their dopamine reward expectation contingencies are running them.
天哪，我可以把这个给这个向我询问他们的约会生活的人，他们可以弄清楚他们的多巴胺奖励期望意外事件是如何影响他们的。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Well, it would be very interesting to sit and run scenarios through your mind and run them through again and ask whether you saw something like that going on with the signaling that's available in your nose.
好吧，坐下来在你的脑海中运行场景并再次运行它们并询问你是否看到类似的事情正在发生在你的鼻子中可用的信号中，这将是非常有趣的。
That's the kind of experiments we're doing now.
这就是我们现在正在进行的实验。
We have sentences playing out to people that have As each word occurs, there's a probability that there's going to be a valence change in the sentence, and we're looking at how it tracks this word by word.
我们向人们播放句子，当每个单词出现时，句子中的价态可能会发生变化，我们正在研究它如何逐个单词地跟踪这个单词。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
We have people playing social exchange games, thinking about themselves and others.
我们让人们玩社交交换游戏，思考自己和他人。
I can imagine there's probably somebody out there that has even better ideas about how you could use it, right?
我可以想象可能有人对如何使用它有更好的想法，对吧？
I sit and work on the other end of it.
我坐在它的另一端工作。
So I'm hoping that's going to hit the big time for him.
所以我希望这对他来说会很重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could you give me an example of something that you're particularly excited about that would make one of your kids' lives easier?
您能否给我举一个您特别兴奋的例子，它可以让您的孩子的生活变得更轻松？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Learning how to concentrate.
学习如何集中注意力。
This company, this is Seth Batten.
这家公司，我是塞思·巴顿。
His company's called Nebula Neuro.
他的公司叫做 Nebula Neuro。
If he had a probe that we could put up there easily, like the little squishy things in your ears, then you could give him that, and you could ask him to servo on their neurotransmitter release.
如果他有一个我们可以轻松放置在那里的探针，就像你耳朵里的小软东西，那么你可以给他那个，你可以要求他伺服神经递质的释放。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So they would read a passage.
所以他们会读一段话。
You're getting real-time readout-
您将获得实时读数 -
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Uh-huh
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of dopamine and serotonin.
多巴胺和血清素。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
And then you make a suggestion about how to learn something about it, pay attention to a component of it, or you could do something as simple as lower this thing right here, lower this signal right here.
然后你提出一个关于如何了解它的建议，注意它的一个组成部分，或者你可以做一些简单的事情，比如降低这里的这个东西，降低这里的这个信号。
We just haven't had a way to measure that in real humans, in settings that are like the real world.
我们只是没有办法在真实的人类、类似于现实世界的环境中测量这一点。
So you take 1,000 people, and you say, "Oh, look, these people are really comprehending in a way that we want them to comprehend, and these are in the middle, and these are, wow, they're way off beam here." And then you train a neural network who looks at their performance step by step with the transmitters there, and it generates a picture of that.
所以你拿 1000 个人来说，“哦，看，这些人真的以我们希望他们理解的方式理解，而这些人在中间，这些人，哇，他们在这里太偏离了。”然后你训练一个神经网络，它用那里的发射器一步一步地观察它们的性能，并生成一张图片。
That kind of thing is going to dominate neurobiology coming up.
这类事情将在未来的神经生物学中占据主导地位。
It's changed, whether or not people realize it or not.
不管人们是否意识到，它已经改变了。
So many people are getting trained in it over here, but these are the important problems.
很多人在这里接受培训，但这些都是重要的问题。
These are the human behavior, human mind, human perception problems.
这些是人类的行为、人类的心灵、人类的感知问题。
That's what you really want to get at, especially for mental illness and stuff like that.
这就是你真正想要得到的，特别是对于精神疾病和类似的疾病。
It's not going to be a simple one thing.
这不会是一件简单的事情。
So the fact that these neural networks have had a big breakthrough, and how do we train them, and there's still a ton of stuff we don't know.
事实上，这些神经网络已经取得了重大突破，我们如何训练它们，还有很多我们不知道的东西。
These networks often learn things that the designers don't know they know.
这些网络经常学习设计者不知道他们知道的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think that scares a lot of people, but I think there's excitement in it to be had in it also.
我认为这让很多人感到害怕，但我认为其中也有令人兴奋的地方。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
And they're very convincing.
而且他们非常有说服力。
They can make very convincing arguments and things like that.
他们可以提出非常有说服力的论据之类的事情。
And so I just think letting it look at data, I can't imagine a neuroscience experiment, certainly on humans, where you wouldn't do that, where you wouldn't shine these networks on that and feed them the data.
所以我只是想让它看看数据，我无法想象一个神经科学实验，尤其是在人类身上，你不会这样做，你不会让这些网络接受数据并向他们提供数据。
So a lot of this is going to be how do you collect the data, how do you feed it to the networks, and whatnot.
因此，其中很多内容将是如何收集数据、如何将其提供给网络等等。
So I'm very excited about that.
所以我对此感到非常兴奋。
I'm excited about it because it was made fun of so much 30 years ago.
我对此感到很兴奋，因为 30 年前它曾被很多人取笑。
Oh, reinforcement learning can't learn anything.
哦，强化学习什么也学不到。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Everything in science was made fun of when, now these really sound like two old guys talking about, but when I first started going to the annual neuroscience meeting, two things were the dregs, like no one attended those very few posters, which were AI and brain machine interface.
科学上的一切都被嘲笑了，现在听起来真的像两个老家伙在谈论，但当我第一次开始参加年度神经科学会议时，有两件事是渣滓，就像没有人参加那些很少的海报一样，那就是人工智能和脑机接口。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Ah.
啊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Those were considered the really just the bottom of the pile stuff.
这些被认为是最底层的东西。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Now it's the hot thing, right?
现在最热门的是吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And for a while, there was the molecular tools and genetic tools, and those are still awesome, but now AI and brain machine interface-
有一段时间，有分子工具和遗传工具，那些仍然很棒，但现在人工智能和脑机接口——
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is all the rage.
风靡一时。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
We're going to engineer our way into the brain now.
我们现在要设计进入大脑的方法。
We're not going to just look for a pill.
我们不会只是寻找药丸。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, look, the same thing is true, if I may, I'm editorializing here, in the health space, right?
好吧，看，同样的事情也是如此，如果可以的话，我正在这里，在健康领域发表社论，对吗？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so the same kind of what got knocked on meditation and magic carpet, is it like a magic carpet ride?
那么冥想和魔毯上遇到的情况是一样的，是不是就像乘坐魔毯一样？
Is it woo mysticism, breathwork, meditation?
是追求神秘主义、呼吸、冥想吗？
Psychedelics are making a big comeback now.
迷幻剂现在正在卷土重来。
That needs to be approached with caution, obviously.
显然，这需要谨慎对待。
Can set off psychotic episodes, but it's being looked at seriously, clinically.
可能引发精神病发作，但临床上正在认真对待它。
The GLPs have made peptides super interesting.
GLP 使肽变得非常有趣。
Basically, I've lived long enough in these spaces of science and health to say, whatever people are beating up on now, that's going to be the next big thing.
基本上，我在科学和健康领域生活了足够长的时间，可以说，无论人们现在正在攻击什么，这都将成为下一件大事。
It's just going to take a while.
这只是需要一段时间。
And you have to be discerning in how you go about it.
你必须在如何去做的问题上保持敏锐的洞察力。
But I think it's wonderful that guys like Hinton and others kept hammering on this stuff when everyone thought it was kind of backwater.
但我认为，当每个人都认为这有点停滞不前时，像 Hinton 和其他人这样的人继续研究这些东西是很棒的。
Well, why would you do this stuff?
那么，你为什么要做这些事情呢？
Why would you do neural networks?
为什么要做神经网络？
Like-
就像-
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Because they can't learn.
因为他们无法学习。
They can't learn anything.
他们学不到任何东西。
And it was sort of true.
这确实是真的。
They weren't learning anything impressive.
他们没有学到任何令人印象深刻的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
And then they transitioned to learning everything.
然后他们开始学习一切。
You can ask it, "What's in that picture?" And it'll answer you.
你可以问它：“那张照片里有什么？”它会回答你。
There's a woman holding a puppy dog with a man dancing in the background.
有一个女人抱着一只小狗，背景中有一个男人在跳舞。
Looks like a painting from a Fellini movie.
看起来像费里尼电影中的一幅画。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's awesome.
太棒了。
It's proof that whether or not you're talking about fitness or sport or science, that if you love a certain area of something, to just keep going, because eventually, the world kind of aligns with you.
这证明，无论你是否在谈论健身、运动或科学，如果你热爱某件事的某个领域，就继续前进，因为最终，世界会与你保持一致。
And then it won't.
然后就不会了。
Eventually, it move onto something else.
最终，它转向其他事情。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
He's a psychologist too.
他也是一位心理学家。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it's so cool.
是的，太酷了。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
His PhD's in psychology.
他拥有心理学博士学位。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hinton?
辛顿？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I'm glad to know that you're excited.
嗯，我很高兴知道你很兴奋。
I'm excited that you're excited.
我很高兴你感到兴奋。
And I'm also mostly an optimist about this stuff.
我对这件事也基本上持乐观态度。
I also think when we talked a lot about social media and reward contingencies and dopamine and stuff, but I also think that the human brain has adapted to conditions over and over and over again.
我还认为，当我们谈论了很多关于社交媒体、奖励意外事件、多巴胺之类的东西时，但我也认为人类大脑已经一遍又一遍地适应条件。
So this younger generation that we're like, "How could you spend all this time on your phone?" We don't want them to destroy themselves.
所以我们会问年轻一代，“你怎么能把这么多时间花在手机上呢？”我们不希望他们毁掉自己。
On the other hand, they're doing pretty well.
另一方面，他们做得很好。
There are examples of them doing spectacularly well, scrolling super fast, then doing homework, playing sports, living their lives.
有一些例子表明他们做得非常好，超快地滚动，然后做作业，做运动，过自己的生活。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, you willing to answer some questions from the general public?
那么，您愿意回答一下公众的一些问题吗？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Sure, sure.
当然，当然。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some great questions here.
这里有一些很好的问题。
Some of them you've already answered.
其中一些您已经回答过。
But here's one I think is worth asking.
但我认为这是值得一问的。
How much of what the public hears about, quote unquote, "dopamine hits" is neuroscience BS, meaning it's probably not real neuroscience, and how much has an evidence base when we hear this thing, dopamine hits?
公众所听到的“多巴胺袭击”有多少是神经科学的胡说八道，这意味着它可能不是真正的神经科学，当我们听到“多巴胺袭击”这件事时，有多少有证据基础？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Something unexpected and rewarding-
一些意想不到的和有益的事情——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
causes a dopamine fluctuation, and that's true
引起多巴胺波动，这是真的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
But it's an incomplete story.
但这是一个不完整的故事。
Do you think it's an oversimplification to assign a serotonin hypothesis of depression and a dopamine hypothesis of schizophrenia?
您认为将抑郁症的血清素假说和精神分裂症的多巴胺假说过于简单化了吗？
And if so, what other points would you add?
如果是这样，您还会补充哪些其他观点？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
It's a bit of a loaded question in that both of those chemicals are fluctuating in both of those disorders.
这是一个有点棘手的问题，因为这两种化学物质在这两种疾病中都会发生波动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So involved, but that's not the complete story.
如此复杂，但这并不是完整的故事。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
It was the most conspicuous feature of schizophrenia is the fact that blocking dopamine receptors turns the symptoms down a little bit.
精神分裂症最显着的特征是阻断多巴胺受体可以稍微减轻症状。
We discovered that a long time ago.
我们很久以前就发现了这一点。
It was very early on seen as a hyperdopaminergic state, and it is that.
它很早就被视为多巴胺能亢进状态，事实就是如此。
If you block dopamine receptors, you don't hear voices anymore.
如果你阻断多巴胺受体，你就听不到声音了。
If you take L-DOPA, and you don't have Parkinson's, and you don't have schizophrenia, I can find a dose where you will start to hear voices.
如果您服用左旋多巴，并且您没有帕金森氏症，并且您没有精神分裂症，我可以找到让您开始听到声音的剂量。
I can find a dose where you will start to feel paranoid.
我可以找到一种让你开始感到偏执的剂量。
I can make you schizophreniform.
我可以让你精神分裂。
And so that's a rational assignment of dopamine, the features of schizophrenia.
这就是多巴胺的合理分配，这是精神分裂症的特征。
Schizophrenia is pretty ill-defined, and I think all these words are going to start getting teased apart now that we can record things in healthy people, that we can record things in sick people, and that we're recording these transmitters in people that have these actual disorders.
精神分裂症的定义相当模糊，我认为现在所有这些词都将开始被嘲笑，因为我们可以在健康人身上记录东西，我们可以在病人身上记录东西，并且我们正在患有这些实际疾病的人身上记录这些发射器。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This person is curious about the serotonin to dopamine ratio in quitting decisions.
此人对戒烟决定中的血清素与多巴胺比率感到好奇。
At what point does the neurochemical drive to persist, what they're thinking of as dopamine pursuit, become pathological against the valuation signal that says, "This isn't working"?
在什么时候，神经化学驱动力会持续存在，他们所认为的多巴胺追求，会变得病态，反对“这不起作用”的估值信号？
In other words, what's the line between grit and sunk cost fallacy?
换句话说，毅力和沉没成本谬误之间的界限是什么？
They want a lot answered in this one.
他们希望在这一篇中得到很多答案。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
That's a great question.
这是一个很好的问题。
I think it leaves out something that we really don't know much about, which is for these neurotransmitters to be released more or less, you have to set expectations.
我认为它遗漏了一些我们确实不太了解的东西，那就是这些神经递质要或多或少地释放，你必须设定期望。
We know very little about how expectations for now are being set, and being updated from state to state.
我们对目前的期望是如何设定的以及各州之间的更新知之甚少。
And that controls the fluctuations as much as anything.
这可以最大程度地控制波动。
And so the representations in your brain of how they're held or gotten from memory, how they control brain states and stuff, that's not understood very well at all.
因此，你的大脑中关于它们如何从记忆中保存或获取、它们如何控制大脑状态和其他东西的表征，我们根本没有很好地理解。
That's what AI is going to help us do in the next 20 years.
这就是人工智能在未来 20 年将帮助我们做的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love that.
我喜欢那个。
I really appreciate your answer.
我真的很感谢你的回答。
And guess what?
你猜怎么着？
Grok AI jumped in and answered as well, so we can see what Grok said.
Grok AI 也跳出来回答了，所以我们可以看到 Grok 说了什么。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
It answered what?
它回答了什么？
That question?
那个问题？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That same question, yeah.
同样的问题，是的。
So these people are asking questions on X.
所以这些人在X上问问题。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
So he has Grok running over all the-
所以他让 Grok 跑遍了所有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Grok just jumped in and answered.
Grok 直接跳了进去并回答。
This person didn't say-- oh, no, sorry, they tagged Grok, so Grok jumped in and answered.
这个人没有说——哦，不，抱歉，他们给 Grok 贴了标签，所以 Grok 跳出来回答。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
I see, right.
我明白了，对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you ask a question on X, and you tag Grok.
如果你在 X 上问问题，然后给 Grok 贴上标签。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
What did it say?
它说了什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I'll tell you what Grok said.
所以我会告诉你格罗克所说的话。
Great question .
很好的问题。
Research shows that dopamine drives persistence, grit, by reinforcing effort and reward anticipation.
研究表明，多巴胺通过加强努力和奖励预期来提高毅力和毅力。
But high levels can trap us in sunk cost fallacies, ignoring when to quit.
但高水平可能会让我们陷入沉没成本谬误，忽视何时退出。
Serotonin helps balance by signaling outcome valuation.
血清素通过发出结果评估信号来帮助平衡。
Low ratios may tip toward unhealthy persistence.
低比率可能会导致不健康的持久性。
Studies, and they cite a study, link dopamine surges to overvaluing sunk efforts.
研究（他们引用了一项研究）将多巴胺激增与高估沉没的努力联系起来。
Worth exploring with the expert.
值得与专家探讨。
Big exclamation mark, you .
大感叹号，你。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
That's funny.
这很有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wild, right?
狂野吧？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How did Grok do?
格罗克表现如何？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Grok did well if the brain is only a chemical machine.
如果大脑只是一台化学机器，Grok 就表现得很好。
Grok left off the fact that it's an electrochemical machine, and that the electrical activity in the networks set things like expectations, which defines when the release is happening or not.
Grok 忽略了这样一个事实：它是一台电化学机器，网络中的电活动会设定诸如期望之类的东西，这定义了释放何时发生或不发生。
And so that's half the book.
这就是本书的一半。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's the one thing about dopamine the public seems to always misunderstand?
关于多巴胺，公众似乎总是误解的一件事是什么？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Dopamine equals pleasure.
多巴胺等于快乐。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is not true.
事实并非如此。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Is not true.
事实并非如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
What's the one thing about serotonin the public always seems to misunderstand?
关于血清素，公众似乎总是误解的一件事是什么？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
I take drugs to increase my serotonin when I'm depressed.
当我抑郁时，我会服用药物来增加血清素。
What they don't understand is that those drugs are really heterogeneous, often pathological, and across decades, toxic.
他们不明白的是，这些药物确实是异质的，通常是病态的，而且几十年来都是有毒的。
So, we're in an unfortunate moment there to reconfigure that kind of treatment.
因此，我们正处于一个不幸的时刻，需要重新配置这种治疗方法。
I bet you, because I know people who swear by SSRI use, it transformed their life, and the side effects are nominal.
我敢打赌，因为我知道那些发誓使用 SSRI 的人，它改变了他们的生活，而且副作用是微不足道的。
It'd be great to be able to identify them ahead of time, the candidates for whom that would work.
如果能够提前确定他们以及适合的候选人，那就太好了。
A lot of this is a placebo effect.
这在很大程度上是安慰剂效应。
Psychotropic meds, when you have a good outcome variable, 50% to 80% is a placebo effect, meaning you can't explain the variance by anything.
精神药物，当你有一个好的结果变量时，50% 到 80% 是安慰剂效应，这意味着你无法用任何东西来解释差异。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
But that doesn't mean it's a fake effect.
但这并不意味着它是假的。
Your expectations are set by that.
你的期望由此决定。
If you believe something is going to happen, we have very poor understanding of really how your belief that something's happening in your brain actually marshals it.
如果你相信某件事将会发生，我们就很难理解你对大脑中正在发生的事情的信念实际上是如何控制它的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This question I am tempted to relate to meditation, but let's see what you say.
我很想把这个问题与冥想联系起来，但让我们看看你怎么说。
How do dopamine responses change when you remove external rewards and rely purely on internal satisfaction?
当你去除外部奖励并纯粹依赖内部满足感时，多巴胺反应会如何变化？
So I think of an example like meditation, where maybe you're not telling people, "I'm meditating" to get praise, but just going into a state or maybe drawing because you like drawing, you're never going to show your drawings.
所以我想到了一个像冥想这样的例子，也许你不会告诉人们“我正在冥想”以获得赞扬，而只是进入一种状态或者可能因为你喜欢画画而画画，你永远不会展示你的画作。
Is there any idea of what happens when the reward-
你知道当奖励时会发生什么吗？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
No, there's not, but it would be fantastic to measure that.
不，不存在，但能够测量这一点就太棒了。
That's a fantastic question.
这是一个很棒的问题。
To what degree can you, when cut off from the world, let's say in a sensory deprivation tank generate internal states that you chase and generate dopamine signals in that context.
当与世界隔绝时，比如说在感觉剥夺池中，你能在多大程度上产生你在这种情况下追逐并产生多巴胺信号的内部状态。
That's why I mentioned these not yet published measurement schemes.
这就是为什么我提到这些尚未发布的测量方案。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I'm telling Oliver from the UK, no info, but he said yours is a superb question.
好吧，我告诉来自英国的奥利弗，没有任何信息，但他说你的问题很好。
And guess what?
你猜怎么着？
That's a lot of external validation, so it kind of runs countercurrent to the question.
这是大量的外部验证，所以它有点与问题背道而驰。
But right on, Oliver.
但就这样吧，奥利弗。
I don't know you, Oliver, but oh, it's interesting, many people are asking that same question.
我不认识你，奥利弗，但是哦，有趣的是，很多人都在问同样的问题。
What has a greater influence on dopamine levels, exogenous or feedback, or our psychological framework?
什么对多巴胺水平影响更大，是外源性的还是反馈性的，还是我们的心理框架？
People are thinking about this a lot.
人们对此思考了很多。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Well, they're linked.
嗯，它们是有联系的。
My simple answer betrayed itself in a way.
我的简单回答在某种程度上暴露了自己。
They're linked.
它们是相连的。
Your ability to generate a clear expectation and hold it in mind, I guess we're talking about consciously here, right?
你产生明确期望并将其牢记在心的能力，我想我们在这里谈论的是有意识的，对吗？
It's not really clear how good you are at that.
目前还不清楚你在这方面有多擅长。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There are a lot of questions asking about how to create a capacity for persistent motivation under conditions where things aren't going well.
有很多问题询问如何在事情进展不顺利的情况下建立持久动力的能力。
You talked earlier about running up a hill and puking as a self-training.
您之前谈到了跑步上山并呕吐作为一种自我训练。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Friday nights after the football game.
周五晚上足球比赛结束后。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
On Fridays?
周五？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
I just did it because I could.
我这么做只是因为我可以。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Till you actually vomited?
直到你真的吐了？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
I don't know, snot and vomit.
我不知道，鼻涕和呕吐。
I would go until I couldn't go anymore.
我会一直走，直到我不能再走为止。
I didn't really lift weights in high school.
我高中时并没有真正举重。
I copied the Russians.
我抄袭了俄罗斯人。
I had Russian books because Caucasian sprinters in the Olympics, that won, were only from the Eastern Bloc countries.
我有俄语书籍，因为在奥运会上获胜的白人短跑运动员只来自东欧集团国家。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Little did I know they were on these massive steroid campaigns.
我几乎不知道他们正在进行这些大规模的类固醇活动。
But they did a lot of plyometrics and box jumps and stuff.
但他们做了很多增强式训练和跳箱之类的训练。
So I would put weight vest on and do it until I just threw up.
所以我会穿上举重背心，直到我呕吐为止。
I worked out this morning, and I felt so nauseated.
我今天早上锻炼了，感觉很恶心。
I thought, "Oh my God, I don't know."
我想：“天哪，我不知道。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Have you ever done a mellow workout?
你做过柔和的锻炼吗？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Your face says it all.
你的脸说明了一切。
We had a guy-
我们有一个人——
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
It's my moment every day.
每天都是我的时刻。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
That's why I don't like to work out with anybody.
这就是为什么我不喜欢和任何人一起锻炼。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
It's my moment.
这是我的时刻。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, same.
是的，一样。
Unless I'm working out with Dorian Yates.
除非我和多里安·耶茨一起锻炼。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Well.
好吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You know?
你知道吗？
Because he's going to go harder than I am.
因为他会比我更努力。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
You know when I met DeLand, he was from DeLand, Florida, Arthur Jones.
你知道当我见到德兰时，他来自佛罗里达州德兰，阿瑟·琼斯。
I met him at a place in Sandy Springs, which is in Atlanta, and at the same place, I used to work out with a guy called Isaac Hayes.
我在亚特兰大桑迪斯普林斯的一个地方遇见了他，在同一个地方，我曾经和一个叫艾萨克·海耶斯的人一起锻炼。
You ever heard of Isaac Hayes?
你听说过艾萨克·海耶斯吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Called the Black Moses, and-
被称为黑摩西，而且——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
he would have this giant gold thing around, and I was 12, and I could get in the Nautilus place and do a few things.
他身边会有这个巨大的金东西，而我当时 12 岁，我可以进入鹦鹉螺号的地方做一些事情。
They would let me in.
他们会让我进去。
And he was the nicest guy to me, Isaac Hayes.
他是对我来说最好的人，艾萨克·海耶斯。
He just died not so long ago, right?
他刚刚去世不久吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I recognize his name, and I can see his face.
我认得他的名字，也能看到他的脸。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Shaved head.
剃光头。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Yep.
是的。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
He wore dark shades.
他戴着深色墨镜。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
And a giant gold chain around his thing.
他的东西周围还有一条巨大的金链。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's so cool.
太酷了。
Yeah.
是的。
The high intensity work that Arthur Jones encouraged, I think, is the best way to stimulate hypertrophy and whatnot, the super setting and-
我认为，阿瑟·琼斯所鼓励的高强度工作是刺激肥大等的最佳方式，超级环境和——
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Oh, I'm sorry.
哦，对不起。
You had to carry a bucket there.
你必须提着一个桶去那里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh.
哦。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Because people would throw up so much.
因为人们会吐得太多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
High rep, high intensity leg day, you can definitely puke.
高次数、高强度的腿部日，你绝对会吐。
A lot of questions about serotonin syndrome.
关于血清素综合症的很多问题。
I get questions about this all the time.
我总是收到有关此问题的疑问。
People who feel like because of SSRIs, they are dealing with sexual side effects, anhedonia, motivational issues.
那些感觉因为 SSRIs 的人正在处理性副作用、快感缺失和动机问题的人。
What do you think the cause is?
您认为原因是什么？
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Of all those things?
所有这些事情？
Those drugs are binding to all kinds of receptors, is what's happening, and there are all kinds of serotonin receptors.
这些药物与各种受体结合，这是正在发生的事情，并且存在各种血清素受体。
Okay?
好的？
There's not that many different dopamine.
没有那么多不同的多巴胺。
There are probably, what, 80 serotonin receptors or something?
大概有，什么，80 个血清素受体什么的？
There's a great number of them, and so there's just a field of dreams of way you can sort of have side effects.
它们的数量很多，所以只有一个梦想领域，你可以通过某种方式产生副作用。
Also, just the idea that you're on them-
另外，只是你在他们身上的想法-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
...
...
is itself an effect.
本身就是一种效果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
I'm on a drug.
我正在吸毒。
This is a drug to manipulate my mood state.
这是一种控制我情绪状态的药物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
That has an effect on your mood state and the way you feel.
这会影响您的情绪状态和感觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for answering those questions.
感谢您回答这些问题。
I want to say a couple things.
我想说几件事。
First of all, thank you for taking time out of your very busy family and work and work out to puke often schedule.
首先，感谢您从繁忙的家庭和工作中抽出时间，经常锻炼身体。
Despite the fact that you don't sleep much, you are very busy, and it's a really wonderful opportunity that so many people can learn about dopamine and serotonin and neuromodulator dynamics from somebody who really understands the science, past, present, and where it's going.
尽管你睡得不多，但你很忙，这是一个非常好的机会，让很多人可以从真正了解科学、过去、现在及其发展方向的人那里了解多巴胺、血清素和神经调节剂动力学。
These are topics that many, many people hear about and think about, and it's super important that the conversation be up to date and nuanced, and you've done that for us today.
这些是很多很多人听到和思考的话题，对话是最新的和细致入微的，这是非常重要的，而你今天已经为我们做到了这一点。
I realize it's far from complete, so we'll have to have you back.
我意识到它还远未完成，所以我们必须让你回来。
But also, I just want to say thanks for being the pioneer that you've been and forging a path that, at least to my knowledge, no one else in neuroscience is tackling all the technical challenges, thinking about the AI and the computational stuff, putting people into scanners, putting wires up people's nose, putting wires into people's brains.
而且，我只想说，感谢你成为先驱者，并开辟了一条道路，至少据我所知，神经科学领域没有其他人能够解决所有的技术挑战，思考人工智能和计算的东西，将人们放入扫描仪中，将电线放在人们的鼻子上，将电线放入人们的大脑中。
From the time I met you 15 years ago, it was very, very clear that you have a goal of solving the answers to particular questions, and that you're going to do whatever it takes to get those answers, and that's just awesome.
从 15 年前我遇见你的时候起，你的目标就非常非常明确，那就是解决特定问题的答案，并且你将不惜一切代价来获得这些答案，这真是太棒了。
It's the spirit of science at its best.
这是最好的科学精神。
And we'll put links to your work, and I know you've written some things and given some other talks, but I'm just so grateful.
我们将添加您作品的链接，我知道您写了一些东西并进行了一些其他演讲，但我非常感激。
I learned a ton today, and I know everyone else has, so you've done us all a tremendous service, so thank you.
今天我学到了很多东西，我知道其他人也学到了很多东西，所以你为我们所有人提供了巨大的服务，所以谢谢你。
Dr. Read Montague:
里德·蒙塔古博士：
Oh, thanks for having me.
哦，谢谢你邀请我。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Blast.
爆炸。
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Reed Montague.
感谢您参加今天与里德·蒙塔古博士的讨论。
To learn more about his work, please see the links in the show note captions.
要了解有关他的作品的更多信息，请参阅演出注释标题中的链接。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的关注按钮来关注播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review, and you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您可以给我们留下五星级的评论，现在您可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客或嘉宾有意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑的主题，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这本书是我花了五年多时间编写的，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验。
And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
它涵盖了从睡眠到运动再到压力控制的所有协议，以及与注意力和动机相关的协议，当然，我为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." And if you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。
So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。
Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
同样，所有社交媒体平台上都是 Huberman Lab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available completely zero cost.
所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter and enter your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的菜单选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯并输入您的电子邮件即可。
And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Reed Montague.
再次感谢您参加今天与里德·蒙塔古博士的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
This episode is brought to you by Caesar.
本集由凯撒为您带来。
If you're looking to serve your dog high-quality dog food, just eat Caesar.
如果您想为您的狗提供高品质的狗粮，那就吃凯撒吧。
Whether it's a protein-rich beef recipe or savory chicken and vegetable dinner, Caesar offers a variety of delicious meals made with freshly crafted, slow-cooked ingredients, all designed to support your dog's everyday nutrition without compromise.
无论是富含蛋白质的牛肉食谱还是美味的鸡肉和蔬菜晚餐，凯撒都提供各种采用新鲜制作、慢煮原料制成的美味佳肴，所有这些都旨在毫不妥协地支持您的爱犬的日常营养。
So if you're looking to serve a meal your dog actually looks forward to every single day, they should totally just eat Caesar.
因此，如果您想为您的狗每天提供一顿真正期待的饭菜，那么它们完全应该吃凯撒。
Learn more at caesar.com.
如需了解更多信息，请访问 caesar.com。