How Different Diets Impact Your Health | Dr. Christopher Gardner
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. Christopher Gardner.
今天我的客人是克里斯托弗·加德纳博士。
Dr. Christopher Gardner is a professor of medicine and director of nutrition studies at Stanford University.
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士是斯坦福大学医学教授兼营养研究主任。
Dr. Gardner has conducted groundbreaking research on dietary interventions for over 25 years, focusing on what dietary interventions reduce weight and inflammation, and for generally improving physical health.
加德纳博士对饮食干预进行了超过 25 年的开创性研究，重点关注哪些饮食干预可以减轻体重和炎症，以及总体改善身体健康。
He is known for doing extremely well-controlled studies of nutrition, where calories, macronutrients, so protein, fat, and carbohydrates, and food quality are matched between the different groups, and not simply comparing one intervention to the so-called standard American diet, as so many other nutrition studies do.
他以进行极其严格的营养控制研究而闻名，其中卡路里、常量营养素、蛋白质、脂肪和碳水化合物以及食物质量在不同组之间进行匹配，而不是像许多其他营养研究那样简单地将一种干预措施与所谓的标准美国饮食进行比较。
As such, his work has been published in prestigious journals such as the "Journal of the American Medical Association" and the "New England Journal of Medicine." Today, we discuss several important nutritional controversies, and we examine what the science actually tells us.
因此，他的作品发表在《美国医学会杂志》和《新英格兰医学杂志》等著名期刊上。今天，我们讨论几个重要的营养争议，并研究科学实际上告诉我们的内容。
First, we explore protein requirements, how much protein we actually need, and do those needs change based on activity levels, age, and health status?
首先，我们探讨蛋白质需求，我们实际需要多少蛋白质，以及这些需求是否会根据活动水平、年龄和健康状况而变化？
And I should say that even though we started out with rather discrepant stance on this, we converge on an answer that I think will be satisfying, at least to most people, and then you can tailor that answer to your unique needs.
我应该说，尽管我们一开始对此的立场相当不同，但我们都集中在一个我认为至少对大多数人来说会令人满意的答案上，然后你可以根据你的独特需求定制这个答案。
We then examine the ongoing debate between vegetarian, vegan, and omnivore diets for optimal health, and we dive into whether plant proteins are truly inferior to animal proteins, as is often claimed.
然后，我们研究了素食、纯素食和杂食饮食之间关于最佳健康的持续争论，并深入研究植物蛋白是否真的不如动物蛋白，正如人们经常声称的那样。
We also discuss the role of fiber in the diet and the emerging science on fermented foods and their powerful anti-inflammatory effects.
我们还讨论了纤维在饮食中的作用以及发酵食品的新兴科学及其强大的抗炎作用。
Throughout today's conversation, we focus on food quality and not just macronutrient ratios or calories, and how those can impact health outcomes.
在今天的谈话中，我们关注的是食品质量，而不仅仅是常量营养素比例或卡路里，以及它们如何影响健康结果。
As you'll hear, Dr. Gardner and I don't agree on every nutritional recommendation, particularly how much protein people need and the discrepancy in views about animal-based proteins versus plant-based proteins.
正如您将听到的，加德纳博士和我并不同意每项营养建议，特别是人们需要多少蛋白质，以及关于动物性蛋白质与植物性蛋白质的观点差异。
But by the end, I do believe that we converge on themes that everyone, regardless of their dietary preference, ought to be able to benefit from.
但到最后，我确实相信我们的主题是一致的，每个人，无论其饮食偏好如何，都应该能够从中受益。
As always, we provide you with science-based, actionable information that you can apply to your daily life.
一如既往，我们为您提供基于科学的、可操作的信息，您可以将其应用到日常生活中。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, this episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，这一集确实有赞助商。
And now for my conversation with Dr. Christopher Gardner.
现在是我与克里斯托弗·加德纳博士的对话。
Professor Christopher Gardner, so nice to meet you and to have you here.
克里斯托弗·加德纳教授，很高兴见到您并来到这里。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Happy to be here off Stanford campus talking to you.
很高兴在斯坦福大学校园外与您交谈。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's right.
没错。
Even though we've both been there a very long time, it is a big place, and so we haven't had the chance to interact directly, but of course, I know who you are, and I'm very familiar with much of your work, but you'll tell us about more of it today.
尽管我们已经在那里呆了很长时间，而且地方很大，所以我们没有机会直接互动，但当然，我知道你是谁，而且我对你的大部分工作都很熟悉，但你今天会告诉我们更多的内容。
To kick things off, I want to know, is it possible that even though all human beings are, I presume, the same species, that some of us might thrive perhaps on one form of diet and others might thrive perhaps on a different form of diet?
首先，我想知道，尽管我认为所有人类都是同一物种，但我们中的一些人可能会依靠一种饮食形式而茁壮成长，而另一些人可能会依靠另一种饮食形式而茁壮成长？
In other words, how do we justify talking about the "best diet" for a given age demographic, level of activity, et cetera?
换句话说，我们如何证明针对特定年龄人口、活动水平等谈论“最佳饮食”是合理的？
If one were to look at social media or even just the history of nutrition in this country, one can almost reflexively lean on the idea that maybe we all need something different and some experimentation and discovery is needed.
如果人们要看看社交媒体，甚至只是这个国家的营养史，人们几乎会本能地倾向于这样一种想法：也许我们都需要一些不同的东西，并且需要一些实验和发现。
So do we need different diets or is there a best diet?
那么我们需要不同的饮食还是有最好的饮食呢？
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
So there isn't one best diet, and I don't think we need different diets.
因此，不存在一种最好的饮食，而且我认为我们不需要不同的饮食。
We're just incredibly resilient, and we can do crazy wild things.
我们的适应能力非常强，我们可以做一些疯狂的事情。
So the way I start my human nutrition class at Berkeley with students is in the very first class, I point out the Tarahumara Indians, who are world-class ultra-marathon runners, mostly corn and beans, like total carb.
因此，我在伯克利与学生一起开始人类营养课的方式是在第一堂课中，我指出塔拉乌马拉印第安人，他们是世界级的超级马拉松运动员，主要是玉米和豆类，例如总碳水化合物。
And then you can look at the Alaskan Inuits, who for centuries lived on whale and blubber and polar bear and things like that.
然后你可以看看阿拉斯加因纽特人，他们几个世纪以来以鲸鱼、鲸脂和北极熊等为食。
So that was total fat and total carb, and they thrived.
这就是总脂肪和总碳水化合物，它们茁壮成长。
There was really no diabetes, no heart disease, no cancer.
确实没有糖尿病，没有心脏病，没有癌症。
But eating all their local indigenous diets.
但吃的是当地所有的土著饮食。
Michael Pollan has a great quote on this, the author of "Omnivore's Dilemma," and he says, "If you really look around the world, it is amazing how much variety there is in a diet that people can thrive on, except the one that doesn't work is the American diet, the standard American diet, because it's full of processed, packaged food." And the sad thing is that the Tarahumara Indians now eat a lot of crap, and the Alaskan people and the Inuits now have a lot of packaged, processed food shipped in, and the world's all sort of centering on an unhealthy diet that is convenient, and it's inexpensive, and it's available, and it's addictively tasty, and it's problematic.
《杂食者的困境》一书的作者迈克尔·波伦（Michael Pollan）对此有一句精彩的引述，他说：“如果你真正环顾世界，就会发现令人惊讶的是，人们可以赖以生存的饮食有如此多的多样性，但唯一行不通的是美国饮食，标准的美国饮食，因为它充满了加工、包装食品。”可悲的是，塔拉乌马拉印第安人现在吃了很多垃圾，阿拉斯加人和因纽特人现在有很多包装好的加工食品运进来，世界各地都以不健康的饮食为中心，这种饮食很方便，很便宜，很容易买到，而且很美味，但这是有问题的。
So no, there is not one best diet.
所以不，没有一种最好的饮食。
It's incredible how resilient we are.
令人难以置信的是，我们的适应能力有多么强大。
So I'd love to get into that.
所以我很想参与其中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Well, there's so many facets to what we call diet or nutrition.
嗯，我们所说的饮食或营养有很多方面。
There's the macronutrients, protein, fats, and carbohydrates, the micronutrients.
有大量营养素、蛋白质、脂肪和碳水化合物，即微量营养素。
There's how many calories are in there.
里面有多少卡路里。
There's how it was sourced.
这就是它的来源。
There's how that sourcing impacts the environment.
这就是采购对环境的影响。
There are just so many lenses to look at this issue through.
可以从很多角度来看待这个问题。
I would like to know, because of what you just told us, that people prior to food making its way around the world from different cultures to other cultures, food largely centered on what was grown and hunted and harvested locally.
我想知道，因为你刚才告诉我们，在食物从不同的文化传播到世界各地之前，人们的食物主要集中在当地种植、狩猎和收获的食物。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is it possible that even though people have dispersed across the planet, sort of going back to this first question, that there is a "best diet," meaning not that we could adapt to any diet, but that for some of us, high meat, high fat, maybe even let's say high protein, high fiber, just to make it a little bit less extreme, high protein, high fiber, low starch is better.
是否有可能，即使人们已经分散在地球上，回到第一个问题，有一个“最好的饮食”，这意味着不是我们可以适应任何饮食，而是对我们中的一些人来说，高肉，高脂肪，甚至可以说高蛋白，高纤维，只是为了让它不那么极端，高蛋白，高纤维，低淀粉更好。
And then for people that are descendants of people with genes from another part of the world, that high starch, high fiber, lower protein Would be advisable.
对于具有来自世界另一个地方的基因的人的后裔来说，高淀粉、高纤维、低蛋白质是可取的。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
For me, the best way to answer that is people come up to me quite often and say something like, "Professor Gardner, I know you're all into whole food, plant-based diets, and I was vegan, I was vegetarian, I was trying that, and I had some health issues, and I switched to be more fat and more meat.
对我来说，回答这个问题的最好方法是人们经常来找我，说这样的话：“加德纳教授，我知道你们都喜欢全食、植物性饮食，而我是素食主义者，我是素食主义者，我正在尝试这样做，但我有一些健康问题，所以我转而吃更多的脂肪和更多的肉。
And I'm almost embarrassed to be asking you this because my doctor told me I shouldn't do this either, but all my health issues have cleaned up.
我几乎不好意思问你这个问题，因为我的医生告诉我我也不应该这样做，但我所有的健康问题都已经解决了。
I'm looking really good." And I have a whole another cadre of folks who are eating a lot of meat and a lot of fat, and they said, "I went vegan, I went low-fat vegan, and all my health issues cleaned up, and I'm much better now than I was before." And it's really hard to look someone in the eye who's doing something wildly different and say, "Well, you're wrong.
我看起来真的很好。”我还有另外一群人吃大量的肉和大量的脂肪，他们说，“我吃纯素，我吃低脂纯素，我所有的健康问题都解决了，我现在比以前好多了。”真的很难看着一个做着截然不同事情的人的眼睛说：“好吧，你错了。
You're lying." Clearly, these people were really probing for the diet that was best for them, and they were following some advice that they thought was good, and they kept following it and it wasn't working, and they tried something counter to that, and it worked better, and they're trying to rationalize that and deal with that.
你在撒谎。”显然，这些人确实在探索最适合他们的饮食，他们遵循了一些他们认为好的建议，他们一直遵循它，但它不起作用，他们尝试了一些与此相反的方法，但效果更好，他们试图合理化这一点并解决这个问题。
So I am sure that there are different diets for different people, but at the end of the day, it's just not the packaged, processed food that the whole world is leaning towards.
所以我确信不同的人有不同的饮食，但归根结底，这并不是全世界都倾向于的包装加工食品。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I really appreciate that answer because as somebody who's tried various diets, I never had any serious health issues, thank goodness, but I know what I thrive on.
我真的很欣赏这个答案，因为作为一个尝试过各种饮食的人，谢天谢地，我从未遇到过任何严重的健康问题，但我知道我靠什么茁壮成长。
I'm an omnivore.
我是杂食动物。
Not that people need to know this, but I like to eat meat, fish, chicken, eggs, lots of fruits and vegetables.
并不是说人们需要知道这一点，但我喜欢吃肉、鱼、鸡肉、鸡蛋、大量的水果和蔬菜。
I eat very little starch.
我吃的淀粉很少。
I wouldn't say I'm low carb because I eat a lot of fruits and vegetables, and some limited amounts of starch.
我不会说我是低碳水化合物，因为我吃了很多水果和蔬菜，以及一些有限的淀粉。
But having tried many different things, including vegetarian diet, lacto-ovo vegetarian many years ago, and more extreme keto-type diets that lean more heavily on meat as opposed to the way perhaps keto should be done, which we'll talk about.
但尝试了许多不同的方法，包括素食、多年前的乳蛋素食，以及更极端的酮类饮食，这些饮食更多地依赖肉类，而不是我们将要讨论的酮类饮食。
I've just found this works really well for me.
我刚刚发现这对我来说非常有效。
So I fully embrace the idea that different people thrive on different diets.
所以我完全接受这样的观点：不同的人靠不同的饮食来茁壮成长。
How is it that's true?
这怎么可能是真的呢？
Meaning, do you think this is because of our inheritance of genes from people that came from different parts of the world?
意思是，你认为这是因为我们继承了来自世界不同地区的人的基因吗？
And to what extent can a different diet passed through generations have epigenetic effects?
代代相传的不同饮食在多大程度上会产生表观遗传效应？
Maybe I thrive on that and somebody else thrives on something different because of where their ancestors are from and what they've been eating for the last maybe even 300 years.
也许我靠这个而茁壮成长，而其他人却靠着不同的东西而茁壮成长，因为他们的祖先来自哪里，以及他们在过去甚至300年里吃的东西。
That's not long for an evolutionary event to take place, but some things can happen in 300 years.
进化事件发生的时间并不长，但有些事情可能在 300 年后发生。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
So really, the only classic example that's well established is lactose intolerance and lactase and Northern Europeans developing the ability to continue making the enzyme lactase to break apart the molecule lactose well into adult life.
事实上，唯一已确定的经典例子是乳糖不耐症和乳糖酶，北欧人在成年后发展出继续制造乳糖酶以分解乳糖分子的能力。
So the majority of the world is lactose intolerant, and if we could just do that for a minute.
所以世界上大多数人都有乳糖不耐症，如果我们能做一下的话。
So when you're a newborn infant and you're having breast milk, you are getting lactose in your mom's milk.
因此，当您是新生婴儿并且正在吃母乳时，您会从妈妈的乳汁中获取乳糖。
And then once you are weaned off the breast, most people in the world stop making lactase, that enzyme.
一旦你断奶，世界上大多数人就会停止产生乳糖酶。
And so I'm sure everybody listening to this knows someone who's lactose intolerant and either buys lactase milk or avoids milk and avoids dairy because of the GI disorders.
所以我确信每个听这个的人都知道有人患有乳糖不耐症，他们要么购买乳糖酶牛奶，要么避免牛奶，因为胃肠道疾病而避免乳制品。
So it really is fascinating that some northern Europeans at some point had enough cows and dairy and ate it that they developed the ability to keep making this enzyme later in life, whereas the rest of the planet didn't.
因此，令人着迷的是，一些北欧人在某个时候拥有足够的奶牛和奶制品，并吃了它们，以至于他们在以后的生活中发展出了继续制造这种酶的能力，而地球上的其他人却没有。
And it's not really hard cut and dry, so there's actually people who are lactose intolerant who can still tolerate some milk.
而且它并不是真正的硬切和干燥，所以实际上有些乳糖不耐症的人仍然可以忍受一些牛奶。
There's a lot of people who can't digest it.
很多人都消化不了。
And to be honest, it doesn't really make much sense.
而且说实话，这并没有多大意义。
If you look at mammals around the planet, all the mammals, mammalian breast tissue, breast milk, so they're all drinking the mom's breast milk until they get weaned off for food.
如果你看看地球上的哺乳动物，所有的哺乳动物，哺乳动物的乳腺组织，母乳，所以它们都在喝妈妈的母乳，直到它们断奶作为食物。
No other mammal on the planet drinks the breast milk of another mammal to thrive later in life.
地球上没有其他哺乳动物会喝另一种哺乳动物的母乳来在以后的生命中茁壮成长。
So humans are the only ones who do it.
所以人类是唯一能做到这一点的人。
It's really mostly cow milk, and it's kind of frigging bizarre, but it works for a lot of people.
它实际上主要是牛奶，这有点奇怪，但它对很多人都有效。
And so that is the classic example of sort of overcoming genes over the course of evolution.
这是在进化过程中克服基因的典型例子。
But I don't know many like that, so I don't have a better example of can people who evolved from Africans versus Asians versus Scandinavians do anything different than that.
但我不知道有多少这样的人，所以我没有更好的例子来说明从非洲人、亚洲人、斯堪的纳维亚人进化而来的人可以做任何与此不同的事情。
That's the only example I've got, but could be possible.
这是我得到的唯一例子，但也是可能的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Eight Sleep.
我想稍微休息一下，并向我们的赞助商“八睡”表示感谢。
Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity.
August Sleep 生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。
Now, I've spoken before on this podcast about the critical need for us to get adequate amounts of quality sleep each and every night.
现在，我之前在这个播客上谈到过我们迫切需要每晚获得充足的优质睡眠。
Now, one of the best ways to ensure a great night's sleep is to ensure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct.
现在，确保一夜好眠的最佳方法之一是确保睡眠环境的温度正确。
And that's because in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop about one to three degrees.
这是因为为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的体温实际上必须下降约一到三度。
And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees.
为了醒来时感觉神清气爽、精力充沛，您的体温实际上必须升高约一到三度。
Eight Sleep automatically regulates the temperature of your bed throughout the night according to your unique needs.
八睡眠会根据您的独特需求自动调节整个晚上的床温。
Now, I find that extremely useful because I like to make the bed really cool at the beginning of the night, even colder in the middle of the night, and warm as I wake up.
现在，我发现这非常有用，因为我喜欢让床在半夜变得非常凉爽，在半夜变得更冷，而在我醒来时变得温暖。
That's what gives me the most slow-wave sleep and rapid eye movement sleep.
这就是给我最慢波睡眠和快速动眼睡眠的原因。
And I know that because Eight Sleep has a great sleep tracker that tells me how well I've slept and the types of sleep that I'm getting throughout the night.
我知道这一点，因为八睡眠有一个很棒的睡眠追踪器，它可以告诉我我的睡眠质量以及我整晚的睡眠类型。
I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for four years now, and it has completely transformed and improved the quality of my sleep.
我已经睡在八睡眠床垫套上四年了，它彻底改变并改善了我的睡眠质量。
Their latest model, the Pod 4 Ultra, also has snoring detection that will automatically lift your head a few degrees in order to improve your airflow and stop you from snoring.
他们的最新型号 Pod 4 Ultra 还具有打鼾检测功能，可以自动将您的头部抬起几度，以改善气流并阻止您打鼾。
If you decide to try Eight Sleep, you have 30 days to try it at home, and you can return it if you don't like it, no questions asked, but I'm sure that you'll love it.
如果您决定尝试八睡眠，您有 30 天的时间在家试用，如果您不喜欢它，可以无条件退货，但我相信您会喜欢它。
Go to eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $350 off your Pod 4 Ultra.
前往八睡眠.com/huberman 购买 Pod 4 Ultra 最高可节省 350 美元。
Eight Sleep ships to many countries worldwide, including Mexico and the UAE.
八号睡眠船运往世界各地的许多国家，包括墨西哥和阿联酋。
Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $350 off your Pod 4 Ultra.
再次强调，访问八sleep.com/huberman，您的 Pod 4 Ultra 最高可节省 350 美元。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Matina.
今天的节目也是由Matina给我们带来的。
Matina makes loose-leaf and ready-to-drink yerba mate.
Matina 生产散叶和即饮马黛茶。
I've often discussed yerba mate's benefits, such as regulating blood sugar, its high antioxidant content, and the ways that it can improve digestion.
我经常讨论马黛茶的好处，例如调节血糖、其高抗氧化剂含量以及它改善消化的方式。
It also may have possible neuroprotective effects.
它还可能具有神经保护作用。
It's for those reasons and the fact that yerba mate provides, in my opinion, the most even and steady rise in energy and focus with no crash, that yerba mate has long been my preferred source of caffeine.
正是由于这些原因，而且在我看来，马黛茶能够最均匀、稳定地提高能量和注意力，而不会崩溃，马黛茶长期以来一直是我首选的咖啡因来源。
I also drink yerba mate because I love the taste.
我也喝马黛茶，因为我喜欢它的味道。
And while there are a lot of different yerba mate drinks out there, my absolute favorite is Matina.
虽然市面上有很多不同的马黛茶饮料，但我最喜欢的是 Matina。
I'm excited to share that Matina has recently launched a series of new flavors of their cold brew, all zero sugar yerba mate.
我很高兴与大家分享，Matina 最近推出了一系列新口味的冷萃咖啡，全零糖马黛茶。
There's a raspberry flavor, there's a mango flavor, there's a mint flavor, there's a lemon flavor, and a peach flavor, and they are absolutely incredible.
有覆盆子味，有芒果味，有薄荷味，有柠檬味，还有桃子味，它们绝对令人难以置信。
If I had to pick one that's my absolute favorite, it would probably be the mango or the raspberry, but frankly, I cannot pick just one, and I end up having basically one of each every single day.
如果我必须选择一个我最喜欢的，它可能是芒果或覆盆子，但坦率地说，我不能只选一个，而且我最终基本上每天都吃一个。
Again, all of these flavors are made with the highest quality ingredients, all organic, and again, all zero sugar.
同样，所有这些口味均采用最优质的原料制成，全部有机，而且全部零糖。
If you'd like to try Matina, you can go to drinkmatina.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Matina，可以访问 Drinkmatina.com/huberman。
Again, that's drinkmatina.com/huberman.
再说一遍，这是 Drinkmatina.com/huberman。
What do you say to all these people who have wheat allergies or gluten reactions?
您对所有对小麦过敏或麸质反应的人有什么想说的？
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I want to be really careful here and distinguish between full-blown wheat or gluten intolerant versus people that just don't feel good when they do this.
我想在这里非常小心，区分成熟的小麦或麸质不耐症的人和那些在这样做时感觉不舒服的人。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I recently took a blood test that revealed to me I have a mild wheat, I wouldn't say allergic reaction because they didn't do the allergy test, but I have antibodies against it, and dairy.
我最近做了一次血液测试，结果显示我有轻微的小麦，我不会说过敏反应，因为他们没有做过敏测试，但我有针对它的抗体，还有乳制品。
And it's true, I don't like drinking milk.
确实，我不喜欢喝牛奶。
It makes me feel lousy.
这让我感觉很糟糕。
I get all mucusy-
我全身都是粘液-
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and puffy.
和浮肿。
But I like some sourdough bread.
但我喜欢一些酵母面包。
I'm sure there's wheat in a lot of sourdough bread out there.
我确信很多酵母面包中都含有小麦。
Some yes, some no.
有些是，有些不是。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I can eat Parmesan cheese and feel fine.
我可以吃帕尔马干酪，感觉很好。
But I know people that even though they're not clinically diagnosed as gluten intolerant, they feel absolutely dreadful when they have any kind of gluten.
但我知道人们，即使他们没有在临床上被诊断为麸质不耐受，但当他们吃任何种类的麸质时，他们都会感到绝对可怕。
So what we're trying to do here, I guess, is there's the science, which we'll get into, and then there's people's experience.
所以我想，我们在这里想做的是我们将深入研究的科学，然后是人们的经验。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And as you pointed out, people can't get around their own experience, and they probably shouldn't, right?
正如您所指出的，人们无法回避自己的经历，而且他们可能不应该这样做，对吧？
I think the whole world is done listening to people tell them that their experience isn't real.
我认为全世界都已经不再听人们告诉他们他们的经历不是真实的了。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that's what a lot of, I think, the confusion in the world of nutrition is about.
我认为这就是营养学界的许多困惑所在。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Totally respect that.
完全尊重这一点。
Let me do the wheat thing, but let me go back to lactose intolerance for just a minute.
让我做一下小麦的事情，但让我回到乳糖不耐症一分钟。
So I had an opportunity to work with a guy who raises raw milk products in California, and he was convinced this raw milk would heal lots of people of lots of things.
因此，我有机会与一位在加利福尼亚州种植原奶产品的人合作，他相信这种原奶可以治愈很多人的很多事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Define raw milk.
定义原料奶。
No pasteurization?
没有巴氏杀菌吗？
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
No pasteurization, which drives some health-
没有巴氏灭菌，这会促进一些健康-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Might as well just be drinking out of the udder.
也可能只是从乳房里喝水。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Which drives some health professionals crazy because at a large scale, you could get listeria and other issues from this if the whole thing wasn't properly hygienic.
这让一些卫生专业人员感到疯狂，因为如果整个过程不卫生，你可能会从中感染李斯特菌和其他问题。
Okay, so anyway, some of his claims seemed outlandish, and quite a few of them would be hard to test, like cancer or some chronic disease.
好吧，无论如何，他的一些说法似乎很奇怪，而且其中相当多的说法很难测试，比如癌症或某些慢性疾病。
You'd have to wait decades to see that happen.
你必须等待几十年才能看到这种情况发生。
But at one point, he said, "And raw milk cures lactose intolerance." And I thought, "That seems frigging wild." So how would that happen?
但有一次，他说，“生牛奶可以治疗乳糖不耐症。”我想，“这看起来太疯狂了。”那怎么会发生呢？
And for me, so I am a nutrition interventionist.
对我来说，我是一名营养干预师。
That is like my superpower.
这就像我的超能力。
I love designing trials to answer questions, but usually in a couple of months or a year, not in 40 or 50 years.
我喜欢设计试验来回答问题，但通常是几个月或一年，而不是 40 或 50 年。
And I thought, of all the claims that you have, lactose intolerance sets on in hours.
我想，在你所有的说法中，乳糖不耐症在几个小时内就会出现。
So if you wanted to know if this worked or not, you'd know right away.
因此，如果您想知道这是否有效，您马上就会知道。
So I said, "I will do this." This is like the most inexpensive study that I have ever run.
所以我说：“我会这么做的。”这就像我开展过的最便宜的研究。
I'm going to find people who are lactose intolerant, and I'm going to give them your raw milk, some commercial milk, and soy milk as sort of an extra control here.
我会找到乳糖不耐症的人，然后给他们提供生奶、一些商品奶和豆奶，作为额外的控制。
And all we're going to test for is symptoms.
我们要测试的只是症状。
And we actually had to have some focus groups up front.
事实上，我们必须预先设立一些焦点小组。
Most of my studies are done in a way that I think this is going to help you, but I'm not sure.
我的大部分研究都是以一种我认为会对你有所帮助的方式完成的，但我不确定。
In this particular study, if you're going to do all three harms, I know I'm going to hurt you.
在这项特殊的研究中，如果你要造成所有三种伤害，我知道我会伤害你。
You're lactose intolerant.
你有乳糖不耐症。
I'm going to ask you to drink cow's milk.
我要请你喝牛奶。
I need you to have GI distress so that I can see if on the raw milk you don't and compared to the soy milk you won't.
我需要你有胃肠道不适，这样我就可以看看喝生牛奶是否不会，以及与豆奶相比，你是否不会。
So in our focus groups, we asked-- I usually don't pay people to be in our studies.
因此，在我们的焦点小组中，我们问——我通常不会付钱让人们参与我们的研究。
I usually give them all the results of the studies, and they like that.
我通常会给他们所有的研究结果，他们喜欢这样。
But I said, "I'm going to hurt you, so how much would I have to pay you?" And they said, "Yeah." And I said, "How much?" And they said, "Well, 250 bucks would be okay, depending on how long this thing is." And we sort of talked about the duration, and it had an interesting design.
但我说：“我会伤害你，那么我要付给你多少钱呢？”他们说：“是的。”我说：“多少钱？”他们说：“好吧，250 美元就可以了，这取决于这东西有多长。”我们讨论了持续时间，它有一个有趣的设计。
So there's a standard test for lactose intolerance.
因此，有一个针对乳糖不耐受的标准测试。
It's objective.
这是客观的。
It's a hydrogen breath test.
这是氢气呼气测试。
And so you have to drink 16 ounces of milk in one setting, fairly fast, and then you every half hour, breathe into a tube, capture the gas, and put it into this breathalyzer.
因此，您必须在一种环境下相当快地喝下 16 盎司牛奶，然后每隔半小时向管子中呼吸一次，捕获气体，然后将其放入呼吸分析仪中。
And it'll tell you if there's hydrogen there.
它会告诉你那里是否有氢气。
And if you have not digested the lactose, it'll go to your colon.
如果你还没有消化乳糖，它就会进入你的结肠。
The microbes will eat it up.
微生物会把它吃掉。
It'll generate hydrogen.
它会产生氢气。
You'll absorb that, and you'll exhale it.
你会吸收它，然后呼出它。
So it's a very objective test of whether you are or aren't digesting your lactose.
因此，这是一个非常客观的测试，可以测试您是否消化乳糖。
So they said, "Yeah, we would do this if the dose after we did the test was four ounces of milk one day, and then eight, 12, 16, 20, 24." And I said, "It's only going to be a week, and you can stop whenever the symptoms are intolerable.
所以他们说，“是的，如果我们测试后的剂量是每天四盎司牛奶，然后是八盎司、12盎司、16盎司、20盎司、24盎司，我们就会这样做。”我说：“只要一周，症状无法忍受时就可以停止。
I don't want you to be in pain for this.
我不想让你为此感到痛苦。
You're not kicked out of the study.
你没有被踢出研究。
I'm really curious what dose it would take for you to react to this.
我真的很好奇你需要多少剂量才能对此做出反应。
And on the soy milk, you won't react at all.
而放在豆浆上，你根本不会有任何反应。
There's no lactose.
没有乳糖。
So it'll just be this question between the cow milk, the commercial one, and the raw milk." So the first part of this study was recruiting.
所以这只是牛奶、商业牛奶和原料奶之间的问题。”所以这项研究的第一部分是招募。
And so we had to say, "To be eligible for this study, you have to fail the hydrogen breath test, and you have to complain about symptoms.
所以我们不得不说，“为了有资格参加这项研究，你必须通过氢气呼气测试，并且你必须抱怨症状。
So you have to be intolerant and objectively, not subjectively, fail this thing." And so we ended up with 16 people in the study.
所以你必须不宽容，客观地而不是主观地让这件事失败。”所以我们最终有 16 个人参与了这项研究。
It wasn't a big deal.
这没什么大不了的。
They did all three arms And 50% of the people who swore they were lactose intolerant failed the breath test.
他们做了所有三只手臂的测试，并且 50% 的发誓自己患有乳糖不耐症的人未能通过呼气测试。
Like their hydrogen didn't go up after they drank 16 ounces of milk.
就像他们喝了 16 盎司牛奶后，他们的氢气没有上升一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But did any of them feel lousy?
但他们中有人感到很糟糕吗？
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
And so I couldn't look at them and say, "Sorry, you're not lactose intolerant.
所以我不能看着他们说：“抱歉，你没有乳糖不耐症。
You're lying to me." I had to say, "You have failed our test.
你在骗我。”我不得不说：“你没有通过我们的测试。
Our inclusion/exclusion criteria meant that you have to feel these symptoms, and you have to have this response." Interestingly, so we had Asian, Black, Hispanic, white, it was all the Caucasians that failed the test that said they had symptoms and didn't pass the hydrogen breath test and show that their hydrogen went up, which pretty much parallels lactose intolerance is usually in non-Caucasians.
我们的纳入/排除标准意味着你必须感受到这些症状，并且你必须有这种反应。”有趣的是，我们有亚洲人、黑人、西班牙裔、白人，所有未通过测试的白种人都说他们有症状，没有通过氢呼吸测试，并显示他们的氢含量上升，这与非白种人通常的乳糖不耐症非常相似。
So I'm sort of leading up to this point of they had symptoms.
所以我认为他们已经出现了症状。
They complained.
他们抱怨道。
They attributed it to lactose intolerance, but technically they weren't.
他们将其归因于乳糖不耐症，但从技术上来说并非如此。
Something else was bothering them.
还有其他事情困扰着他们。
Maybe it was small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, the SIBO.
也许是小肠细菌过度生长，即 SIBO。
Now flip that to wheat.
现在把它转向小麦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Before you do, because I just ask, I want to know, did raw milk help?
在你这样做之前，因为我只是问，我想知道，生牛奶有帮助吗？
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I just have to know.
所以我只需要知道。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Oh yeah, it's not fair.
哦，是的，这不公平。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No.
不。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
No, not at all.
不，一点也不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
So they had the same exact symptoms on the raw milk as the conventional milk.
因此，他们对原料奶的症状与传统牛奶完全相同。
Sorry, that was like the punchline of the whole story is it didn't help at all.
抱歉，这就像整个故事的重点，它根本没有帮助。
It was absolutely identical.
完全一样。
But it was a really easy test to study definitively.
但这是一项非常容易进行明确研究的测试。
16 people might not seem like a lot of people, but because GI disorder is so easy to detect, you either had diarrhea and gas or not.
16 个人可能看起来不是很多人，但由于胃肠道疾病很容易被发现，所以你要么有腹泻和胀气，要么没有。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Very proud of that tiny little paper, tiny little study we did.
我们为我们所做的那篇小论文、小研究感到非常自豪。
Although this raw milk company still on their website says they cure lactose intolerance.
尽管这家原奶公司仍然在他们的网站上说他们可以治疗乳糖不耐症。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, well.
哦，好吧。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
So this is-
所以这是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A different issue altogether.
完全是一个不同的问题。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
So let's not go there, but let's flip that to wheat because-
所以我们不去那里，但让我们把它转向小麦，因为-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
...
...
so my concern in the world of wheat and gluten intolerance is, yeah, it's amazing how many people feel some distress, and if they were tested, you might find out that they're not clinically gluten intolerant, or I'm sure that's a continuum.
所以我对小麦和麸质不耐受的担忧是，是的，令人惊讶的是有多少人感到有些痛苦，如果他们接受测试，你可能会发现他们在临床上并不是麸质不耐受，或者我确信这是一个连续体。
But I think this actually has to do with our food supply.
但我认为这实际上与我们的食物供应有关。
So in a lot of foods that we grow, historically, there were multiple brands of or types of bananas and corn and wheat, et cetera.
因此，从历史上看，在我们种植的许多食物中，有多种品牌或类型的香蕉、玉米和小麦等。
And in the US, we pretty much grow one kind of corn and one kind of wheat, monocropping massive amounts.
在美国，我们几乎种植一种玉米和一种小麦，大量单一种植。
And Americans in particular, of all the grains that people eat around the world, Americans eat wheat.
尤其是美国人，在世界各地人们吃的所有谷物中，美国人吃小麦。
I actually had to do a paper one time where we were sort of trying to determine how much protein came from different sources, how much from meat, how much from dairy, how much from grains.
事实上，有一次我不得不写一篇论文，试图确定有多少蛋白质来自不同来源，有多少来自肉类，有多少来自乳制品，有多少来自谷物。
And I was very intrigued to see that this USDA database said, "Here's our value of protein from grains.
我很感兴趣地看到美国农业部的数据库说：“这是我们从谷物中获取的蛋白质的价值。
And by grains we mean wheat and oats and rice and quinoa and everything," with a little footnote that said, "Because 90% of the grains Americans eat is wheat, we've basically just used the wheat value for this, and we didn't use the others." And I thought, "Oh my God, with rice and oats and everything else out there, 90% of the grains Americans eat is wheat?" But think about it, bagels, pastry, breakfast toast, breakfast-
我们所说的谷物是指小麦、燕麦、大米和藜麦等等，”还有一个小脚注说，“因为美国人吃的 90% 的谷物是小麦，所以我们基本上只使用了小麦的价值，而没有使用其他的。”我想，“天哪，加上大米、燕麦和其他所有东西，美国人吃的 90% 的谷物都是小麦？”但想想看，百吉饼、糕点、早餐吐司、早餐——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Even pizza crust.
甚至披萨饼皮。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Pizza crust.
披萨皮。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
We eat an insane amount of wheat.
我们吃了大量的小麦。
So one of my favorite graphics, and sorry, maybe we'll get into this later, sort of looking at the types of carbs, fats, and proteins that people in the US eat.
这是我最喜欢的图形之一，抱歉，也许我们稍后会讨论这个问题，看看美国人吃的碳水化合物、脂肪和蛋白质的类型。
And I'll have more details if you want to do this later, but 50% of what Americans eat for carbs is carbs, and 40% is crappy carbs, added sugar and refined grains, which is mostly refined wheat, and 10% is healthy carbs.
如果你想稍后再讲，我会提供更多细节，但美国人吃的碳水化合物中 50% 是碳水化合物，40% 是劣质碳水化合物、添加糖和精制谷物，其中大部分是精制小麦，10% 是健康碳水化合物。
And so I think what Americans are eating, and I think the gluten intolerance has to do with wheat being such a predominant grain source when it doesn't need to be, and very little variety in the wheat.
所以我认为美国人正在吃什么，我认为麸质不耐症与小麦在不需要的时候成为主要的谷物来源有关，而且小麦的品种很少。
I know there's actually some folks out there that are trying to bring back sort of some heritage versions of different wheat grains, kamut and buckwheat and what are some of the other ones?
我知道实际上有些人正试图带回不同小麦谷物、卡姆特和荞麦的一些传统版本，还有哪些其他版本？
Farro and wheat berries.
法罗和小麦浆果。
I actually make a kickass wheat berry salad if you want to get into that later.
如果你想稍后再了解的话，我实际上做了一份很棒的小麦浆果沙拉。
But of all this refined wheat that we're eating, to your point, I think, God, isn't that amazing that so many people are now coming up with gluten intolerance?
但是，就我们现在吃的所有精制小麦而言，我想，天啊，现在有这么多人出现麸质不耐症，这难道不令人惊讶吗？
What is going on?
到底是怎么回事？
I think it's because we eat so much wheat, so much refined wheat, and it's really just one kind.
我认为这是因为我们吃了太多的小麦，太多的精制小麦，而且它实际上只是一种。
I have heard-- I don't know if you've had this experience.
我听说——我不知道你是否有过这样的经历。
I've had Europeans come and say, "I ate a lot of bread in Europe, and I come here, and I'm like gluten intolerant.
有欧洲人过来对我说：“我在欧洲吃了很多面包，但我来到这里，我对麸质不耐受。
And then I go back to Europe, and I can have bread again." And I don't know this, so I'm not a-
然后我回到欧洲，我就能再次吃到面包了。”我不知道这一点，所以我不是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
...
...
food scientist, but I think that's part of it.
食品科学家，但我认为这就是其中的一部分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, very interesting, and I know a lot of people listening are extremely curious about this issue of real versus not clinically diagnosed food allergies, but just negative experiences with food.
是的，非常有趣，我知道很多听的人都对真实与非临床诊断的食物过敏这个问题非常好奇，而只是对食物的负面经历。
So how many people are actually gluten intolerant?
那么有多少人实际上对麸质不耐受呢？
You hear about celiac disease.
您听说过乳糜泻。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, people will also now know what the names of these things, so they just kind of throw them out there, whether or not they have them or not.
我的意思是，人们现在也会知道这些东西的名字，所以他们只是把它们扔在那里，无论他们是否拥有它们。
And how many people do you think actually struggle with a wheat intolerance, like a wheat sensitivity?
您认为有多少人实际上患有小麦不耐受症，例如小麦敏感性？
Seems like there's millions and millions of people.
看起来有数以百万计的人。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Not my area of expertise.
不是我的专业领域。
Really can't speak to this effectively.
确实无法有效地谈论这一点。
Do know that for a basic nutrition class that I teach, I was looking at a survey of celiac disease and testing people for it.
要知道，在我教授的基础营养课程中，我正在研究一项关于乳糜泻的调查并对人们进行测试。
And even like half the population with full-blown celiac disease didn't know they had it-
甚至就像一半患有严重乳糜泻的人并不知道自己患有这种疾病一样——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
...
...
and were consuming wheat.
并正在食用小麦。
And so even if you have it There's a range of response.
所以即使你有它也会有一系列的反应。
You could have and just think, "Oh, my stomach's grumbling.
你可以想，“哦，我的肚子在咕咕叫。
Huh.
呵呵。
Doesn't bother me that much." Whereas you have some people who don't have full-blown celiac and they have some gluten intolerance, and a small amount bothers them.
没那么困扰我。”而有些人没有完全的乳糜泻，他们有一些麸质不耐症，少量的麸质就会让他们烦恼。
So even in there, there's some wiggle room that's hard to explain, where you can't look somebody in the eye and say, "Sorry, I've diagnosed you.
所以即使在那里，也有一些难以解释的回旋余地，你不能看着别人的眼睛说：“对不起，我已经诊断出你了。
You don't have this." So it is really important for people to acknowledge and own what they feel and to look into it.
你没有这个。”因此，人们承认并承认自己的感受并进行调查非常重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's talk about processed foods.
我们来谈谈加工食品。
That gets a lot of attention nowadays, and I think we need to parse what we mean by processed foods.
如今这引起了很多关注，我认为我们需要解析加工食品的含义。
I'll just ask this in a very direct way.
我会以非常直接的方式问这个问题。
There are the so-called food additives, the dyes, the binders, the other things that are in processed foods.
加工食品中含有所谓的食品添加剂、染料、粘合剂和其他物质。
We should talk about that.
我们应该谈谈这个。
There's also the issue of caloric density relative to macro and micronutrients, right?
还有相对于大量营养素和微量营养素的热量密度问题，对吗？
A lot of calories, but not a lot of nutrition, so to speak.
可以说，热量很多，但营养不多。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then there are probably 10 other things about what processed food is and what it isn't, like tends to be low fiber, high calorie, low fiber, for instance.
关于什么是加工食品和什么不是加工食品，可能还有其他 10 件事，例如往往是低纤维、高热量、低纤维。
So let's start with these food additives.
那么我们就从这些食品添加剂开始吧。
This is very much in the media space now, and it's controversial.
现在这在媒体领域非常流行，并且存在争议。
The dyes, like they just banned another red dye, number-
这些染料，就像他们刚刚禁止另一种红色染料一样，数字-
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
40, I think it was.
40，我想是的。
But the fact I can't remember which one just tells you that there are a lot of them.
但事实上我不记得是哪一个，只能告诉你它们有很多。
What about these dyes?
这些染料怎么样？
How bad are these dyes?
这些染料有多糟糕？
That was on the basis of a rat, or rodent study, rather.
这是基于老鼠或啮齿类动物的研究。
How much do food dyes concern you, as somebody who's spent so much time studying this stuff, nutrition?
作为一个花了很多时间研究营养学这个东西的人，你对食用色素有多关心？
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Don't concern me more than any of the other things that are in the packaged processed foods, and partly because those are almost impossible to study.
与包装加工食品中的其他任何东西相比，我并不关心这些东西，部分原因是这些东西几乎不可能研究。
So in my world, if somebody says this thing is a health concern or health benefit, I have to think, "How would I study that?
所以在我的世界里，如果有人说这个东西对健康有影响或对健康有益，我必须想，“我该如何研究它？
And what is the outcome?" So really my world is what is the exposure and what is the outcome?
结果如何？”所以我的世界实际上就是曝光是什么，结果是什么？
Can I get funded to do that?
我可以获得资金来做这件事吗？
And if the outcome is heart disease or cancer or diabetes, I immediately write it off.
如果结果是心脏病、癌症或糖尿病，我会立即将其注销。
I can't wait till somebody dies or goes to the hospital.
我等不及有人去世或去医院。
I won't be able to publish my paper, and I won't be able to keep my job at Stanford.
我将无法发表论文，也无法保住斯坦福大学的工作。
I have to publish quicker.
我必须更快地发布。
So most of my career has been very cardiometabolic-oriented.
所以我职业生涯的大部分时间都是以心脏代谢为导向的。
So I can move somebody's blood cholesterol, blood glucose, inflammatory markers, insulin in weeks, and sometimes say, "Oh my God, how come you didn't do this for years?" I said, "Well, because most of the effect happened in the first two weeks." I did it for eight weeks, or I did it for six months.
所以我可以在几周内改变某人的血液胆固醇、血糖、炎症标记物、胰岛素，有时我会说，“天啊，你怎么这么多年都不这么做了？”我说：“嗯，因为大部分影响发生在前两周。”我做了八周，或者我做了六个月。
But really, the effect plateaued in weeks if it was the cardiometabolic risk factor here.
但实际上，如果这是这里的心脏代谢危险因素，那么效果会在几周内趋于稳定。
So if you want to ask me what a dye does, I'd have to randomize people to sort of get the exposure or not, so the same food with or without the dye, and I would have to have an outcome.
因此，如果你想问我染料的作用，我必须随机分组人们是否接触过，所以相同的食物有或没有染料，我必须有一个结果。
And there's really not many outcomes.
而且结果确实不多。
Your cholesterol wouldn't move.
你的胆固醇不会移动。
Your blood glucose wouldn't move.
你的血糖不会变化。
If it was the same for everything except the dye, those measures would not move.
如果除了染料以外的所有东西都是一样的，那么这些措施就不会改变。
So the idea is you give it to a rat in a huge dose, and you see if they get cancer.
所以我们的想法是给老鼠服用大剂量的这种药物，然后观察它们是否会患上癌症。
And it makes metabolic sense.
这对新陈代谢是有意义的。
That creates a plausibility that this is a carcinogen.
这就让人相信这是一种致癌物。
But it's really hard to test and think of, you just said you couldn't keep track of how many red dyes there were, or blue dyes, or yellow dyes, combined with emulsifiers and gelling agents and colorants and glazing agents.
但这真的很难测试和思考，你刚才说你无法追踪有多少红色染料，或蓝色染料，或黄色染料，与乳化剂和胶凝剂以及着色剂和上光剂结合在一起。
There's a list.
有一个清单。
So this NOVA classification put together by Carlos Montara from Brazil is like the hot topic in the world of ultra-processed food.
因此，来自巴西的卡洛斯·蒙塔拉（Carlos Montara）制定的NOVA分类成为了超加工食品界的热门话题。
So for the last decade, if you will look, papers coming out every month talking about ultra-processed, and if you look at that paper, it's the NOVA classification.
所以在过去的十年里，如果你仔细看的话，每个月都会有一篇论文谈论超加工，如果你看一下那篇论文，你会发现它是 NOVA 分类。
So an interesting thing, just to make this clear, and we can stop if this is too far down the rabbit hole, but the NOVA classification is agnostic to nutrition.
这是一件有趣的事情，只是为了澄清这一点，如果这太离谱了，我们可以停止，但 NOVA 分类与营养无关。
He doesn't care how much fat or cholesterol or fiber is in there.
他不在乎里面有多少脂肪、胆固醇或纤维。
His whole point in making this was there's something beyond that.
他这样做的全部目的是超越这一点。
I know we're worried about lack of fiber, too much saturated fat, something else.
我知道我们担心缺乏纤维、过多的饱和脂肪等等。
But isn't there something to the colorants and the flavorants and the gelling agents, et cetera, that could be separate from all this?
但是着色剂、调味剂和胶凝剂等是否有一些东西可以与所有这些分开？
And he, in his analyses, said, "If I parse that out in the data that I'm looking at, that has an additive effect to all these other things." And he's made a big case for it, and people are publishing papers on it all the time.
他在分析中说，“如果我在我正在查看的数据中解析出这一点，就会对所有其他事情产生附加效应。”他对此提出了很大的主张，人们一直在发表有关它的论文。
The American Heart Association has a scientific advisory on this.
美国心脏协会对此提出了科学建议。
And I've seen the table.
我已经看过这张桌子了。
It's in our advisory.
这是我们的咨询中的内容。
There's 150 different molecules in this list that come into the different categories.
此列表中有 150 种不同的分子，属于不同的类别。
And if you look through the whole list, you would be a little shocked.
如果你仔细查看整个列表，你会感到有点震惊。
So for one thing, turmeric is in the list of colorants.
一方面，姜黄在着色剂列表中。
So technically, turmeric could move you into the ultra-processed category.
因此从技术上讲，姜黄可以将您带入超加工类别。
But turmeric is full of curcumin, and people are really excited about the possible health benefits of turmeric.
但姜黄富含姜黄素，人们对姜黄可能带来的健康益处感到非常兴奋。
Pectin is in there.
里面有果胶。
People have used pectin for years to make jams and jellies and things like that.
人们多年来一直使用果胶来制作果酱和果冻之类的东西。
And there's some horrific names that you can't even pronounce in this thing, which I've looked for in foods, and I can't find many of the horrifically named things in any real foods that people eat.
我在食物中寻找过这些东西，但在人们吃的任何真正的食物中我找不到许多可怕的名字。
Anyway, there's 150 chemicals in this list.
无论如何，这份清单中有 150 种化学品。
And it's really intuitively appealing.
而且它在直观上确实很有吸引力。
It's like there must be something beyond just these nutrients.
好像除了这些营养素之外还必须有其他东西。
Oh my God, the food industry is out of whack here.
天哪，这里的食品工业已经不正常了。
And if we could pull in one other term, it's GRAS, generally recognized as safe.
如果我们可以引入另一个术语，那就是 GRAS，普遍认为是安全的。
And so decades and decades ago, the FDA said, "Wow, there's a lot of these things that the food industry is putting in foods." To do an appropriate test to see if this would harm humans is really not feasible.
所以几十年前，FDA 说：“哇，食品工业在食品中加入了很多这样的东西。”做一个适当的测试来看看这是否会对人类造成伤害，确实是不可行的。
Plus, in my world, I can't really do studies where I'm going to harm people.
另外，在我的世界里，我不能真正做会伤害别人的研究。
I need you to sign up and your staff, and I'm going to randomize you to see who I hurt first And once I know who I hurt, I'll know if I need to remove this from the food." So they'll do it in mice, or they'll do it in rats, or they'll do it in a Petri dish to see if it's plausible.
我需要你和你的员工报名，我将随机分组，看看我首先伤害了谁，一旦我知道我伤害了谁，我就会知道是否需要将其从食物中去除。”所以他们会在老鼠身上做这件事，或者他们会在老鼠身上做这件事，或者他们会在培养皿中做这件事，看看它是否合理。
And at one point, there were 800 of these GRAS items, and I think it's grown to 10,000.
曾经有 800 件此类 GRAS 商品，我认为现在已经增长到 10,000 件。
There's a whole bunch of ingredients that the food industry can put into foods because of this GRAS sort of byline, this option that's certainly problematic.
由于这种 GRAS 类型的署名，食品工业可以在食品中添加一大堆成分，这种选择肯定是有问题的。
So we have the NOVA list of these additives.
所以我们有这些添加剂的 NOVA 列表。
And he calls them cosmetic additives.
他称它们为化妆品添加剂。
So let's pause just for a minute to think of that name.
让我们暂停一下，想一下这个名字。
So the cosmetic means it's to make the food look good.
所以化妆品的意思是让食物看起来更好看。
If you're going to go buy it on the shelf, think just for a minute of an emulsifier.
如果您打算购买货架上的产品，请考虑一下乳化剂。
If you went to buy something and it was separated on the shelf and you thought, "Wow, I don't really want that.
如果你去买东西，它被分开放在架子上，你会想：“哇，我真的不想要那个。
It looks like it's half this and half the other thing." Let's say it was a salad dressing.
看起来一半是这个，一半是其他的。”假设这是沙拉酱。
I would want the salad dressing to look all homogenized, like somebody shook it up.
我希望沙拉酱看起来都是均质的，就像有人摇匀了一样。
And I don't want to put the parts on my salad.
我不想把这些部分放在沙拉上。
I want to put the salad dressing.
我想放沙拉酱。
So the cosmetic additives are to make it look good, and that's why we have dyes.
所以化妆品添加剂是为了让它看起来好看，这就是我们有染料的原因。
Oh, I don't think I want to buy that gray thing, but I would buy the red or the yellow or whatever color it is.
哦，我想我不想买那个灰色的东西，但我会买红色或黄色或任何颜色。
So those different additives are going in to make it look more appealing or feel more appealing or smell more appealing instead of just being food.
因此，这些不同的添加剂的加入是为了让它看起来更有吸引力，或者感觉更有吸引力，或者闻起来更有吸引力，而不仅仅是食物。
So it does make sense that this is sort of we've gone too far.
因此，我们确实走得太远了，这是有道理的。
We have this incredible food system that makes inexpensive food very available for a lot of people 24/7, and we just went too far.
我们拥有令人难以置信的食品系统，可以让很多人 24/7 都能获得廉价食品，但我们做得太过分了。
It's too available.
太可用了。
It's too inexpensive.
太便宜了。
It's too stable on the grocery shelf placed there so that three months from now, no bugs have eaten it.
它在杂货店货架上太稳定了，所以三个月后，没有虫子吃掉它。
It hasn't gone bad.
它还没有变坏。
Isn't that good economically that it hasn't gone bad?
经济没有变坏不是很好吗？
But isn't it a little scary that the bugs don't even want to eat it because they can tell there's no nutrition in here?
但虫子根本不想吃，因为它们知道这里没有营养，这不是有点可怕吗？
So yeah, the processed food issue is very interesting.
是的，加工食品问题非常有趣。
It's fascinating that RFK Jr. wants to handle this, and a lot of us are really excited that somebody would like to take a real firm stance here because it is out of whack.
令人着迷的是小罗伯特·肯尼迪想要处理这个问题，我们很多人都非常兴奋有人愿意在这里采取真正坚定的立场，因为它不正常。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's super informative, and I appreciate it for several reasons.
这是非常有用的信息，我很欣赏它，原因有几个。
One that I'd like to highlight in particular is how now several times you've described that to do a proper study, you need to manipulate variables one at a time.
我想特别强调的一点是，您已经多次描述过，要进行一项正确的研究，您需要一次操纵一个变量。
You just can't do the sorts of studies that one would like to do where you manipulate 10, 20, 40, 100 variables of dyes and colors in people and do that in a reasonable amount of time.
你只是无法进行人们想要做的那种研究，即操纵 10、20、40、100 个人体染料和颜色变量，并在合理的时间内完成。
As you mentioned, either people would all be dead or there'd be no more funding for the government for any purpose after a study like that was done.
正如你所提到的，在完成这样的研究之后，要么人们都会死去，要么政府将不再为任何目的提供资金。
It's just too expensive, too time-consuming.
就是太贵了，太费时间了。
The other thing is, given what you just told us about these additives, wouldn't it just make the most sense to just ban them all?
另一件事是，考虑到您刚刚告诉我们有关这些添加剂的情况，禁止它们不是最有意义的吗？
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yep, it sure would.
是的，肯定会的。
And that would wipe out 60% of what's in a grocery store right now.
这将使目前杂货店里 60% 的商品消失殆尽。
And if somebody went in to buy food for their family and 60% of the food was gone, and we hadn't replaced it with food that is more nutritious but meets their budget and is accessible, that would be criminal-
如果有人去给家人买食物，60% 的食物都不见了，而我们没有用更有营养、符合他们的预算且容易获得的食物来取代它，那将是犯罪行为——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
...
...
to be perfectly honest.
说实话。
And that's why the health community is trying to figure out how to react to this.
这就是为什么卫生界正在试图找出如何应对这一问题的原因。
So part of this is, I'll just take an example, several examples of things that fall into the line of these ultra-processed foods.
所以，我只想举一个例子，几个属于这些超加工食品的例子。
There's actually quite a few whole wheat breads, yogurts, salad dressings, and things like tomato sauces.
实际上有很多全麦面包、酸奶、沙拉酱和番茄酱之类的东西。
So picture a very inexpensive quick meal for a family where the parents have three jobs.
想象一下，对于一个父母都从事三份工作的家庭来说，一顿非常便宜的快餐会是怎样的情景。
They're trying to make ends meet.
他们正在努力维持收支平衡。
Sure, it'd be great if they could be home growing their garden and scratch cooking all day, but they can't, so they come home, they cook some pasta, they heat up some red tomato sauce, and they pour it on top.
当然，如果他们能在家里种植花园并整天做饭，那就太好了，但他们不能，所以他们回家，煮一些意大利面，加热一些红色番茄酱，然后倒在上面。
More nutritious than, let's say, a fast food something or other.
比快餐什么的更有营养。
So if you take that tomato sauce away and they whip together a little salad and the kids don't want to eat the raw vegetables that are just plain, they want some salad dressing on it.
因此，如果你把番茄酱拿走，他们会搅拌一点沙拉，孩子们就不想吃普通的生蔬菜，他们想要在上面加一些沙拉酱。
You picked up some salad dressing.
你拿了一些沙拉酱。
And for breakfast, they were going to have some yogurt or whole wheat bread.
早餐时，他们会吃一些酸奶或全麦面包。
So they were going to make some toast and put some avocado on it and have some avocado toast, and it said whole wheat bread.
所以他们要做一些吐司，上面放一些鳄梨，然后吃一些鳄梨吐司，上面写着全麦面包。
All four of those things could have met the criteria for ultra-processed food.
所有这四种东西都可以符合超加工食品的标准。
So you take those off, they can't have the salad, they can't have the pasta, they can't have the yogurt, and they can't have the avocado toast because you took those all away.
所以你把它们拿掉，他们就不能吃沙拉，他们不能吃意大利面，他们不能吃酸奶，他们不能吃鳄梨吐司，因为你把这些都拿走了。
Unless we had seen that and said, "Yes, we know these should be replaced with more nutritious food that doesn't have the cosmetic additives." And until we get to that place, you can't get rid of them all.
除非我们看到这一点并说：“是的，我们知道这些应该用不含化妆品添加剂的更有营养的食物代替。”在我们到达那个地方之前，你无法把他们全部除掉。
That's just cruel.
这太残酷了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
No, it's a wonderful, sad, but important example of the challenges that people face in terms of how to feed a family.
不，这是一个精彩、悲伤但重要的例子，说明了人们在如何养家糊口方面面临的挑战。
And at the same time, we could wage the argument that people in Europe have families.
与此同时，我们可以提出欧洲人有家庭的论点。
They work very hard.
他们工作非常努力。
And their grocery stores include a lot of ultra-processed foods and processed foods, but also a lot of fruits and vegetables and, as we talked about before, maybe more variety of grains, et cetera.
他们的杂货店里有很多超加工食品和加工食品，还有很多水果和蔬菜，正如我们之前谈到的，也许还有更多种类的谷物等等。
So we don't want to paint a picture of the French countryside where everything is grown and harvested and searching for truffles during the morning.
所以我们不想描绘法国乡村的景象，那里一切都在早上种植和收获，并寻找松露。
I spent some time in the south of France, and they actually do this.
我在法国南部呆了一段时间，他们确实这样做了。
People there spend an immense amount of time and energy thinking about what they're going to eat, preparing that food, eating it, and talking about other great meals they've had while they eat it.
那里的人们花费大量的时间和精力思考他们要吃什么，准备食物，吃它，并在吃的时候谈论他们吃过的其他美味佳肴。
And even people without large budgets, at least at that time, ate exceptionally high-quality food in reasonable amounts, and it was incredibly delicious.
即使是没有大量预算的人，至少在当时，也能吃到合理数量的异常优质的食物，而且非常美味。
So there are areas of the world where people do this, but Northern Europe, there's a lot of processed food.
世界上有些地区人们会这样做，但北欧有很多加工食品。
And at the same time, we don't see the same sorts of issues with obesity, at least not to the same degree that we do in the United States, the same chronic health and metabolic issues that we see here.
与此同时，我们没有看到与美国相同的肥胖问题，至少没有达到与美国相同的程度，也没有看到与我们在这里看到的相同的慢性健康和代谢问题。
So if we were to compare and contrast, just because they're closest, a Northern European grocery store and family, and the North American grocery store and family, which you just described, illustrated for us, I think a fairly representative example.
因此，如果我们要进行比较和对比，仅仅因为它们最接近，北欧杂货店和家庭，以及您刚才为我们描述的北美杂货店和家庭，我认为这是一个相当有代表性的例子。
What's different?
有什么不同？
What are they eating for dinner that's different?
他们晚餐吃什么不同？
Is it that the tomato sauce doesn't contain these dyes, that it doesn't contain sugar?
难道番茄酱不含这些染料，不含糖吗？
And what are they replacing those foods with, if they're replacing them at all?
如果他们真的要取代这些食物的话，他们会用什么来取代它们呢？
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
So probably at least two answers, and one of them is going to be, I can't tell you how many Europeans or other folks from other countries have said, "I bought the same product that I buy in my home country here, and it has twice as many ingredients." It's the same company.
因此，可能至少有两个答案，其中之一是，我无法告诉你有多少欧洲人或来自其他国家的其他人说过，“我买了与在祖国购买的产品相同的产品，而且它的成分是我的两倍。”这是同一家公司。
It's the same food.
这是同样的食物。
It could be...
可能是...
What's the hazelnut spread?
榛子酱是什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Nutella.
花生酱。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Nutella.
花生酱。
Like, "Here's the Nutella you sell here, and here's the Nutella I buy there." I've had multiple people bring those up to me and show me the different ingredients.
就像，“这是你在这里卖的花生酱，这是我在那里买的花生酱。”有很多人向我提出这些并向我展示不同的成分。
And so it can be made the other country way, but in the US, it's made another way for Americans.
所以它可以用其他国家的方式来制造，但在美国，它为美国人制造了另一种方式。
So if we could even just make that move, if we could say, "Okay, you already make this in another country another way.
因此，如果我们甚至可以采取这一行动，如果我们可以说：“好吧，你已经在另一个国家以另一种方式做到了。
Can you just make it the same way in the US?" That would be a start right there.
你能在美国以同样的方式做到这一点吗？”这将是一个开始。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Why is it that there's this discrepancy in ingredients?
为什么成分会出现这种差异？
This became very much in the media recently with Froot Loops.
最近，Froot Loops 的出现引起了媒体的广泛关注。
It was argued, I don't know if this is true, but it was argued that Froot Loops in Canada are colored with carrot juice and beet juice, and Froot Loops in the United States use artificial dyes.
有人争论说，我不知道这是否属实，但有人认为加拿大的 Froot Loops 是用胡萝卜汁和甜菜汁着色的，而美国的 Froot Loops 使用人造染料。
And I can't verify that.
我无法验证这一点。
I don't know that to be true, but I think a number of examples pointed to that possibly being true.
我不知道这是真的，但我认为很多例子都表明这可能是真的。
Why would you have a system like ours if other people can do it presumably for same or lesser cost?
如果其他人可以以相同或更低的成本做到这一点，为什么您还要拥有像我们这样的系统呢？
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
I agree.
我同意。
I can't back up that one statement either, but I think that is true for reasons that I can't explain.
我也无法支持这一说法，但我认为这是正确的，原因我无法解释。
And that's why it would be helpful to talk more to the food industry.
这就是为什么与食品行业进行更多对话会有所帮助。
I think there are some challenges with this reaction against ultra-processed foods.
我认为针对超加工食品的这种反应存在一些挑战。
I think there's some problems with NOVA that I brought up earlier.
我认为我之前提到的 NOVA 存在一些问题。
You'd have to make those foods accessible.
你必须让这些食物变得容易获取。
But some of them you could fairly quickly if you took advantage of some of the other ways that people are making it, and the rules are just too loose in the US.
但如果你利用人们制作的其他一些方法，其中一些你可以很快完成，而且美国的规则太宽松了。
So I think that's important.
所以我认为这很重要。
And the level at which this could be impactful is not educating the public to look at the back and find the ultra-processed cosmetic additive and removing it.
这可能产生影响的程度并不是教育公众查看其背面并找到经过超加工的化妆品添加剂并将其去除。
It's to say that we're going to do this, and the food industry will say, "I'm going to have to reformulate.
这就是说，我们要这样做，食品行业会说：“我将不得不重新制定配方。
If somebody's going to buy my product, if they're going to call me out on this, not only am I going to have to reformulate, it won't be hard because I do it in another country, and I could reformulate, and so that ingredient will be gone."
如果有人要购买我的产品，如果他们要批评我，我不仅要重新制定配方，而且这并不难，因为我是在另一个国家做的，而且我可以重新制定配方，这样成分就会消失。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I should ask directly, for your research, do you take funding from companies in the food industry?
我应该直接问，你们的研究是否接受食品行业公司的资助？
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
So several times.
如此几次。
So I've got avocado money.
所以我有鳄梨钱。
I took soy money.
我拿了黄豆钱。
Most recently, I took Beyond Meat money.
最近，我拿了 Beyond Meat 的钱。
Let me talk about the Beyond Meat, which was the most recent one.
先说一下Beyond Meat，这是最近的一款。
I pitted Beyond Meat versus red meat for cardiometabolic outcomes, and the Beyond Meat won in several categories over the red meat.
我将 Beyond Meat 与红肉的心脏代谢结果进行了比较，结果 Beyond Meat 在几个类别中胜过红肉。
And I got a lot of grief for that.
我为此感到非常悲伤。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People love their red meat, including me.
人们喜欢吃红肉，包括我。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I'll go easy, but I'm not going to go completely easy.
我会轻松一点，但我不会完全轻松。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Oh my God.
天哪。
Gardner's an industry shill.
加德纳是一个行业骗子。
All he does is take-- No, most of my money does not come from there, but I actually couldn't get NIH funding to do that because they would say, "Wait a sec.
他所做的就是拿——不，我的大部分钱不是从那里来的，但实际上我无法获得美国国立卫生研究院的资助来做到这一点，因为他们会说，“等一下。
Beyond Meat makes a crap ton of money.
Beyond Meat 赚了很多钱。
They just sold their IPO.
他们刚刚出售了首次公开募股。
Why would we fund that research?
我们为什么要资助这项研究？
Let the food industry fund that." That actually happens all the time, and we could get into how problematic that is or isn't.
让食品工业为此提供资金。”这种情况实际上一直在发生，我们可以了解这是否有问题。
It's certainly at least somewhat problematic that the company is funding the research that will test their product.
该公司资助测试其产品的研究，这肯定至少有些问题。
But more interesting to me was that this was sort of Beyond Meat 1.0.
但对我来说更有趣的是，这有点像 Beyond Meat 1.0。
And Beyond Meat actually did better than the red meat, and they actually, after that, took out the coconut oil, took out some other ingredients, added some more benign ingredients, and they've actually reformulated multiple times.
Beyond Meat 实际上比红肉做得更好，之后他们实际上去掉了椰子油，去掉了一些其他成分，添加了一些更良性的成分，而且他们实际上多次重新配制。
And so by reformulating, even though the study we did show they had a benefit, I totally respect that.
因此，通过重新制定，尽管我们的研究表明它们有好处，但我完全尊重这一点。
They are listening.
他们在听。
They're looking at the health concerns.
他们正在关注健康问题。
They're trying to be responsive.
他们正在努力做出回应。
And I think if the food industry as a whole did this and we could work more closely with them, that would be the way to improve the US food supply as opposed to, we have a new thing, it's NOVA, get rid of them all.
我认为，如果整个食品行业都这样做，我们可以与他们更密切地合作，这将是改善美国食品供应的方式，而不是我们有一个新事物，它是 NOVA，摆脱它们。
That won't really work.
那真的行不通。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I'm hearing two things.
所以我听到两件事。
One, we need to pressure the food industry to reformulate, get rid of these additives, dyes, what you call cosmetic additives, that may or may not be deadly.
第一，我们需要向食品行业施压，要求他们重新制定配方，去掉这些添加剂、染料，也就是所谓的化妆品添加剂，它们可能致命，也可能不致命。
Certainly not in the short term, but that in the long term could very well be problematic.
短期内肯定不会，但从长远来看，这很可能会出现问题。
We need to do something to make sure that that stuff's removed.
我们需要采取一些措施来确保这些东西被删除。
It just doesn't make sense to hedge on that one.
对冲这一点是没有意义的。
And we can look to Europe and other places that don't...
我们可以看看欧洲和其他没有......
Clearly, if nothing else, they've proved that you don't need these things in the foods for them to have a stable shelf life, et cetera.
显然，如果不出意外的话，他们已经证明食品中不需要这些东西来保持稳定的保质期等等。
Okay.
好的。
So that's one.
这就是其中之一。
The other is this issue of food industry funding of studies because-
另一个是食品工业资助研究的问题，因为-
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Uh-huh
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I'm not an expert in nutrition, but I pay a lot of attention to the way that nutrition and health is discussed online.
我不是营养方面的专家，但我很关注网上讨论营养和健康的方式。
That's my business, more or less.
这或多或少是我的事。
And every time somebody hears that a researcher took money from a company to run a study, they assume that there's bias.
每当有人听说研究人员从公司拿钱来进行研究时，他们就会认为存在偏见。
In fairness to you and to the process, I'll just ask, are they able to influence the question?
公平地对待你和整个过程，我只想问，他们能够影响这个问题吗？
Certainly not the collection of data.
当然不是数据的收集。
The data are the data.
数据就是数据。
Your graduate students and postdocs, who are the ones who actually run these experiments, presumably have a hypothesis at the beginning.
您的研究生和博士后是实际进行这些实验的人，他们一开始可能会有一个假设。
They ask a question, and then try and disprove that hypothesis.
他们提出一个问题，然后尝试反驳该假设。
But does the company say, "We want you to test a given hypothesis," or is it funding for you to test a hypothesis that you select?
但是该公司是否说“我们希望您测试给定的假设”，或者是否为您提供资金来测试您选择的假设？
In other words, is there good separation of concept?
换句话说，概念是否有良好的分离？
Clearly, the money issue gets people inflamed, but it's a very different thing when a company says, "Hey, can you test whether or not our product outperforms in terms of cardiometabolic markers compared to red meat?" Versus, "Hey, listen you want to study cardiometabolic markers in people that consume Beyond Meat versus cow meat?
显然，金钱问题会让人们愤怒，但当一家公司说：“嘿，你能测试一下我们的产品在心脏代谢指标方面是否优于红肉吗？”时，情况就完全不同了。与“嘿，听着，你想研究食用 Beyond Meat 与食用牛肉的人的心脏代谢标志物吗？
Okay, we'll fund that." It seems subtle, but it's not so subtle, because in one case, they have an endpoint that they're interested in.
好的，我们会提供资金。”这看起来很微妙，但其实并不那么微妙，因为在一种情况下，他们有一个他们感兴趣的端点。
In the other case, you have an endpoint that you're interested in.
在另一种情况下，您有一个您感兴趣的端点。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
There's not a simple answer to that because it's not a yes/no question.
对此没有一个简单的答案，因为这不是一个是/否的问题。
It's a total continuum.
这是一个完整的连续体。
So they could say, "We'll give you this money if you'll do that." They could say, "We'll give you this money to do anything you want, but tell us about it as you go." You could write up the results.
所以他们可以说：“如果你愿意的话，我们就给你这笔钱。”他们可以说，“我们会给你这笔钱，让你做任何你想做的事，但在你做的时候告诉我们。”你可以把结果写下来。
I'll give you the most interesting personal experience that I had in this.
我会给你我在这方面最有趣的个人经历。
So everything was pretty benign all the way up till when we got the study done, and this had to do with cognitive impairment.
因此，直到我们完成研究之前，一切都非常良性，这与认知障碍有关。
And so I'm not going to even talk about the product.
所以我什至不会谈论该产品。
I'll just set this up because I think you'll find it interesting.
我只是设置这个，因为我认为你会发现它很有趣。
So it turns out the people we recruited had pretty high cognitive ability.
事实证明，我们招募的人具有相当高的认知能力。
There's a survey you can take, and I think 50 was the top, and everybody who signed up was a 45.
你可以参加一项调查，我认为 50 名是最高的，而所有报名的人都是 45 名。
And we were looking to see if this supplement could increase cognitive ability.
我们想看看这种补充剂是否可以提高认知能力。
But we should've realized in the beginning that there wasn't much room to increase.
但我们一开始就应该意识到没有太大的增长空间。
They were 45 out of 50 to begin with.
一开始，他们是 50 人中的 45 人。
And it failed to show that the product increased cognitive ability.
而且它未能表明该产品可以提高认知能力。
So we shared it with the company and they said, "Well, I can see you're saying there's a null finding here, but could you also say there was no deleterious effect?" And I said, "We weren't looking for a deleterious effect.
所以我们与该公司分享了它，他们说：“好吧，我可以看到你说这里有一个无效的发现，但你是否也可以说没有有害影响？”我说：“我们并不是在寻找有害的影响。
We were looking for an improvement." They said, "Yeah, but isn't it also true that it didn't make it worse?" I thought, "That's actually true.
我们正在寻求改进。”他们说：“是的，但它并没有让情况变得更糟，这不是真的吗？”我想：“这确实是真的。
It didn't make it worse.
这并没有让情况变得更糟。
To make these guys happy and to maybe get more money later, should we say it didn't make it worse?" So that would be a really subtle influence that they could have later on.
为了让这些人高兴，也许以后还能得到更多的钱，我们是否应该说这并没有让事情变得更糟？”所以这将是他们以后可能产生的非常微妙的影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In theory, they could market with, "This supplement maintains high levels of cognitive performance-
理论上，他们可以这样营销：“这种补充剂可以保持高水平的认知能力——
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Something like that
类似的东西
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and be truthful, but not giving the whole picture.
并要诚实，但不要提供全貌。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
And at the end of the day, really, the important thing is to look at the study design.
归根结底，重要的是要看研究设计。
I think I can flip this to something that's way more practical than that.
我想我可以把它变成比这更实用的东西。
It's not even industry influence, it's the investigator influence.
这甚至不是行业影响，而是研究者的影响。
So in my world of nutrition, and this is going to go back to the parking lot of not doing one thing at one time, but doing multiple things at one time.
因此，在我的营养世界中，这将回到停车场，不是一次做一件事，而是一次做多件事。
Let's say I want to study vegan or paleo or keto or something like that.
假设我想研究纯素食、原始人饮食、酮类或类似的东西。
I can have diet A versus diet B and make a kickass diet A and a crappy diet B.
我可以选择饮食 A 与饮食 B，并做出极好的饮食 A 和蹩脚的饮食 B。
So it's really unlikely that B will win.
所以B获胜的可能性很小。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
And then I publish that and there's a headline on it, and then there's someone else who actually favors the competing diet.
然后我发表了它，上面有一个标题，然后还有其他人实际上支持竞争性饮食。
They start a study.
他们开始一项研究。
They make a kickass diet B and a crappy diet A.
他们制定了极好的饮食B和蹩脚的饮食A。
And the diet B wins because they set it up that way.
饮食 B 获胜，因为他们就是这样设置的。
No industry influence at all here.
这里根本没有行业影响力。
This is investigator influence.
这就是调查员的影响力。
And then the public comes and says, "What the hell?
然后公众过来说：“到底是什么？
It said diet A is better one day, and it said diet B is better the next.
它说有一天饮食 A 更好，第二天饮食 B 更好。
My God, you nutrition scientists never agree on anything.
天啊，你们这些营养科学家在任何事情上从来都没有达成一致。
I'm just going to go have a burger." It's like, "Ah, if you had looked at the design." So one of my favorite new words in nutrition is equipoise.
我要去吃一个汉堡。”这就像，“啊，如果你看过设计的话。”所以我最喜欢的营养学新词之一是平衡。
I've been trying to set up studies where it's the best diet A that you could be and the best diet B.
我一直在尝试开展研究，确定最佳饮食 A 和最佳饮食 B。
So if I can just riff off a couple things.
所以如果我能简单说几件事。
One of my most famous studies is Diet Fits.
我最著名的研究之一是饮食健康。
It had to do with a low-carb, low-fat diet.
这与低碳水化合物、低脂肪饮食有关。
Six hundred people for a year.
一年六百人。
This is an $8 million study.
这是一项耗资 800 万美元的研究。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is the 2018 study?
这是2018年的研究？
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
And I told the dieticians, I said, "I don't really care which one wins.
我告诉营养师，我说：“我真的不在乎哪一个获胜。
We actually think there's some genetic predisposition or metabolic predisposition.
我们实际上认为存在一些遗传倾向或代谢倾向。
It'd be great if everybody won.
如果每个人都赢了那就太好了。
But just to test this fairly, I want all the dieticians to be advising the 600 people in this study.
但为了公平地检验这一点，我希望所有营养师都能为这项研究中的 600 人提供建议。
You have to teach both low fat and low carb.
你必须教低脂肪和低碳水化合物。
You get assigned to different groups and teach the best low carb you can and the best low fat you can, so that if one wins at the end, we can say we gave both of them a fair shot." When we did SWAP-MEAT-- This is our study, the Study With Appetizing Plant Food Meat Eating Alternative Trial, SWAP-MEAT trial with Beyond Meat.
你被分配到不同的小组，并教授最好的低碳水化合物和最好的低脂肪，这样，如果最后有一个获胜，我们可以说我们给了他们两个公平的机会。”当我们进行交换肉时——这是我们的研究，开胃植物性肉类替代试验的研究，与 Beyond Meat 的交换肉试验。
What should we pick for the red meat?
红肉我们应该选择什么？
Should we pick fast food?
我们应该选择快餐吗？
Should we pick-
我们应该选择——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
nearby.
附近。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
We went to San Francisco and got Good Eggs, which prides itself on getting organic, regeneratively farmed, pasture-raised, so we wanted to get a good quality red meat.
我们去了旧金山，买了 Good Eggs，该公司以有机、再生养殖、牧场饲养而自豪，所以我们想要获得优质的红肉。
We did a study with a vegan diet versus an omnivorous diet, and so for the omnivorous diet, we went to a company that makes really good food, and we have it delivered versus vegan.
我们做了一项关于纯素食饮食与杂食饮食的研究，因此对于杂食饮食，我们去了一家生产非常好的食物的公司，我们将其与纯素食饮食进行比较。
We did ketogenic versus Mediterranean, and we made a good Mediterranean diet, and we did Jeff Volek and Steve Phinney's well-formulated ketogenic diet as the comparison.
我们进行了生酮饮食与地中海饮食的比较，我们制定了良好的地中海饮食，并进行了杰夫·沃莱克和史蒂夫·菲尼精心配制的生酮饮食作为比较。
So in all these, our group has been having fun trying to address your comment, separate from industry influence, just to try to make the two arms as fairly competing against one another as you can.
因此，在所有这些方面，我们的团队一直在尝试解决您的评论，与行业影响无关，只是为了让这两个部门尽可能公平地相互竞争。
Going back to the industry one, there's no way to pull it off 100% clean.
回到行业一，没有办法做到 100% 清洁。
There's just no way.
就是没有办法。
There's so many subtle things that could happen.
有很多微妙的事情可能发生。
So the thing that does help these days is you have to register your trial on clinicaltrials.gov to start with You have to name the primary outcome ahead of time and the whole study design for the world to see, so that if it gets to the end of the study and you switched it, somebody will say, calling you out on BS.
因此，现在确实有帮助的是，你必须首先在 ClinicalTrials.gov 上注册你的试验。你必须提前命名主要结果和整个研究设计，让全世界都能看到，这样，如果研究结束而你改变了它，有人会说，骂你是胡说八道。
That wasn't your primary outcome.
那不是你的主要结果。
You can have a third party analyze your data.
您可以让第三方分析您的数据。
You can lock down the data at the end.
您可以在最后锁定数据。
You can make the data publicly available.
您可以公开数据。
There's a couple more of these steps.
还有几个这样的步骤。
This is as transparent as I can be.
这是我所能做到的最透明的。
So you can make the chance of industry influence lower, but you can never eliminate it.
所以你可以降低行业影响力的机会，但你永远无法消除它。
So if I find a positive result, maybe they'll fund me again later for something else.
因此，如果我找到积极的结果，也许他们稍后会再次资助我做其他事情。
Even though they didn't, some of the industry folks, like I often get gifts.
尽管他们没有，但像我这样的一些业内人士经常收到礼物。
If it's a gift, they can't demand to see anything, but I can offer to show them what happened.
如果这是一份礼物，他们不能要求看任何东西，但我可以向他们展示发生了什么。
And if I show them and they say, "Hey, would you consider doing this?" I'd be pretty stupid to say, "No, you gave me a gift, and I'm not going to consider the thing you said." I would say, "Yeah, I'll consider it.
如果我向他们展示，他们会说：“嘿，你会考虑这样做吗？”我会很愚蠢地说：“不，你给了我一份礼物，我不会考虑你说的事情。”我会说：“是的，我会考虑的。
I will look at it, and I want to present objective data." But I don't think it's the industry as much as the investigator and how they handle it.
我会研究一下，我想提供客观的数据。”但我认为，问题不在于行业，而在于调查人员以及他们的处理方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 daily for more than 13 years.
正如你们许多人所知，我每天服用 AG1 已经超过 13 年了。
However, I've now found an even better vitamin mineral probiotic drink.
然而，我现在找到了一种更好的维生素矿物质益生菌饮料。
That new and better drink is the new and improved AG1, which just launched this month.
这种新的、更好的饮料是新的和改进的 AG1，它于本月刚刚推出。
This next-gen formula from AG1 is a more advanced, clinically backed version of the product that I've been taking daily for years.
AG1 的新一代配方是我多年来每天服用的产品的更先进、经过临床支持的版本。
It includes new bioavailable nutrients and enhanced probiotics.
它包括新的生物可利用的营养素和增强的益生菌。
The next-gen formula is based on exciting new research on the effects of probiotics on the gut microbiome, and it now includes several specific clinically studied probiotic strains that have been shown to support both digestive health and immune system health, as well as to improve bowel regularity and to reduce bloating.
下一代配方基于关于益生菌对肠道微生物组影响的令人兴奋的新研究，它现在包括几种经过临床研究的特定益生菌菌株，这些菌株已被证明可以支持消化健康和免疫系统健康，以及改善肠道规律性和减少腹胀。
As someone who's been involved in research science for more than three decades and in health and fitness for equally as long, I'm constantly looking for the best tools to improve my mental health, physical health, and performance.
作为一个从事科学研究三十多年、同样长期从事健康和健身工作的人，我一直在寻找最好的工具来改善我的心理健康、身体健康和表现。
I discovered and started taking AG1 way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since.
早在 2012 年，我就发现并开始服用 AG1，那时我还没有播客，从那时起我就每天都服用它。
I find that it greatly improves all aspects of my health.
我发现它极大地改善了我健康的各个方面。
I just feel so much better when I take it.
当我服用它时，我感觉好多了。
With each passing year, and by the way, I'm turning 50 this September, I continue to feel better and better, and I attribute a lot of that to AG1.
年复一年，顺便说一句，今年九月我就满 50 岁了，我的感觉越来越好，我将这很大程度上归功于 AG1。
AG1 uses the highest quality ingredients in the right combinations, and they're constantly improving their formulas without increasing the cost.
AG1 使用最优质的成分进行正确的组合，并且在不增加成本的情况下不断改进其配方。
So I'm honored to have them as a sponsor of this podcast.
所以我很荣幸他们成为这个播客的赞助商。
If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。
Right now, AG1 is giving away an AG1 welcome kit with five free travel packs and a free bottle of vitamin D3 K2.
现在，AG1 正在赠送 AG1 欢迎套件，其中包含五个免费旅行包和一瓶免费维生素 D3 K2。
Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim the special welcome kit with five free travel packs and a free bottle of vitamin D3 K2.
请再次访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 领取特别欢迎套装，其中包含 5 个免费旅行包和一瓶免费维生素 D3 K2。
Today's episode is also brought to us by BetterHelp.
今天的节目也是由 BetterHelp 为我们带来的。
BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online.
BetterHelp 提供由持证治疗师完全在线进行的专业治疗。
I've been doing weekly therapy for over 30 years.
我每周进行一次治疗已经有 30 多年了。
Initially, I didn't have a choice.
最初，我别无选择。
It was a condition of being allowed to stay in school.
这是被允许留在学校的一个条件。
But pretty soon I realized that therapy is an extremely important component to overall health.
但很快我就意识到治疗对于整体健康来说是极其重要的组成部分。
In fact, I consider doing regular weekly therapy just as important as getting regular exercise, which of course I also do every week.
事实上，我认为每周定期进行治疗与定期锻炼一样重要，当然我每周也会进行锻炼。
There are essentially three things that great therapy provides.
伟大的治疗本质上可以提供三件事。
First of all, great therapy provides a great rapport with somebody that you can trust and talk to about any and all issues with.
首先，良好的治疗可以与您可以信任的人建立良好的融洽关系，并可以与您谈论任何和所有问题。
Second of all, great therapy provides support in the form of emotional support or directed guidance.
其次，出色的治疗以情感支持或定向指导的形式提供支持。
And third, expert therapy can provide useful insights.
第三，专家治疗可以提供有用的见解。
Sometimes those come from the therapist, sometimes you realize those yourself in the course of therapy, and sometimes you arrive at those insights together.
有时这些来自治疗师，有时您在治疗过程中自己意识到这些，有时您一起得出这些见解。
Those insights can allow you to make changes to improve your life in immeasurable ways, not just your emotional life and your relationship life, but also your professional life.
这些见解可以让你做出改变，以不可估量的方式改善你的生活，不仅是你的情感生活和人际关系生活，还有你的职业生活。
With BetterHelp, they make it very easy to find an expert therapist you resonate with and that can provide you these benefits that come through effective therapy.
通过 BetterHelp，他们可以很容易地找到与您产生共鸣的专家治疗师，并且可以通过有效的治疗为您提供这些好处。
If you'd like to try BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month.
如果您想尝试 BetterHelp，请访问 betterhelp.com/huberman，第一个月可享受 10% 的折扣。
Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman.
再说一次，这是 betterhelp.com/huberman。
Well, let's just close the hatch on the industry funding part because I know that's going to get some people's hair standing up a little bit.
好吧，让我们关闭行业融资部分的舱口吧，因为我知道这会让一些人有点毛骨悚然。
Is there a world where you don't have to rely on industry funding to do these studies?
是否有一个世界不需要依赖行业资助来进行这些研究？
My first response is why go there?
我的第一反应是为什么要去那里？
We have a National Institutes of Health.
我们有国立卫生研究院。
They fund studies on everything from developing novel molecules for the treatment of Parkinson's to studying the effects of breathwork on cancer outcomes.
他们资助各种研究，从开发治疗帕金森病的新型分子到研究呼吸对癌症结果的影响。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Nowadays, it's a very wide range of topics that the NIH embraces, but I think most people don't realize this, and everything in between.
如今，美国国立卫生研究院 (NIH) 所涵盖的主题非常广泛，但我认为大多数人并没有意识到这一点，以及介于两者之间的一切。
So why not just go to NIH for the money?
那么为什么不直接去 NIH 赚钱呢？
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Historically, the proportion of the NIH budget that goes to nutrition studies is infinitesimally small.
从历史上看，美国国立卫生研究院用于营养研究的预算比例非常小。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
There's been many requests to create an institute of nutrition.
人们多次要求建立营养研究所。
Personally, that'd be pretty selfish.
就我个人而言，这是相当自私的。
I'm all in.
我都在。
I wish they would have more resources for me to do those kinds of studies with objective money.
我希望他们能为我提供更多资源，用客观的资金进行此类研究。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My guess is Robert Kennedy would be a fan of that sort of thing.
我猜罗伯特·肯尼迪会是这类事情的粉丝。
I'm not speaking about this with any political affiliation, but he seems to care a lot about getting dyes and additives out of food and cares a lot about the food supply.
我并不是带着任何政治立场谈论这个问题，但他似乎非常关心从食品中去除染料和添加剂，并且非常关心食品供应。
At least he's stated that.
至少他是这么说的。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And NIH is currently in a state of massive revision right now.
而NIH目前正处于大规模修订的状态。
Pause/revision.
暂停/修改。
And I would imagine they would allocate more funding for studies of nutrition, given who's in charge now.
考虑到现在的负责人，我想他们会为营养研究分配更多的资金。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
The bigger challenge is how many nutrition questions there are.
更大的挑战是存在多少营养问题。
So I just served for two years on the Dietary Guidelines Advisory Committee We had two years to consider 60 different questions.
所以我刚刚在膳食指南咨询委员会任职了两年。我们有两年的时间来考虑 60 个不同的问题。
Each one of the questions generated sub-questions.
每个问题都会产生子问题。
The vast majority of questions resulted in a conclusion that's either not enough data available or only enough data available to generate a limited strength response.
绝大多数问题得出的结论是要么没有足够的可用数据，要么只有足够的可用数据来生成有限的强度响应。
To get a moderate or a strong, more data are needed.
要获得中等或较强的强度，需要更多的数据。
This was almost mind-numbingly repetitive through the whole two-year process.
在整个两年的过程中，这几乎是令人麻木的重复。
More data needed, more data needed, more data.
需要更多数据，需要更多数据，更多数据。
And this had to do with snacks, skipping meals, heart disease, diabetes, cancer, pregnancy, infancy, processed foods, seed oils, meat and protein.
这与零食、不吃饭、心脏病、糖尿病、癌症、怀孕、婴儿期、加工食品、种子油、肉类和蛋白质有关。
The questions are pretty endless, so even if you opened up the NIH and said, "Yeah, we're going to move 25% of our budget to studying nutrition," you wouldn't even come close to answering all the questions that the public has right now.
问题是无穷无尽的，所以即使你向 NIH 开放并说：“是的，我们将把 25% 的预算用于研究营养学”，你甚至无法回答公众现在提出的所有问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
That's an important point, and I would say that the public is also doing these experiments.
这是很重要的一点，我想说公众也在做这些实验。
The health and wellness community catches a lot of flak from the standard scientific community.
健康和保健界受到了标准科学界的强烈批评。
They'll say, "Supplements aren't regulated." They are regulated.
他们会说：“补充剂不受监管。”他们受到监管。
There is a variety of qualities across brands and probably even supplements within brand.
不同品牌之间存在着多种品质，甚至品牌内的补充剂也可能具有多种品质。
But the experiments are ongoing.
但实验正在进行中。
You have people who are carnivore, you have people who are vegan, you have people finding what works for them.
有人是肉食动物，有人是素食主义者，有人找到适合他们的东西。
They eliminate this or they add that, and they're becoming scientists for themselves.
他们消除这个或添加那个，然后他们自己就成为科学家。
And we've really decentralized nutrition science, in my opinion.
在我看来，我们确实已经分散了营养科学。
That's just my little editorializing.
这只是我的一点社论。
You mentioned this 2018 study, and I'm so glad that you mentioned your efforts to remove investigator bias by making the vegan diet not like crap vegan food and not making the meat diet all processed meats because that's happened-
你提到了这项 2018 年的研究，我很高兴你提到你为消除研究者偏见所做的努力，让纯素饮食不像垃圾纯素食品，也不让肉类饮食全部是加工肉类，因为这种情况已经发生了——
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in a lot of studies.
在很多研究中。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then that's why the headlines are so confusing over the years, or even within a year.
这就是为什么这些年来甚至一年之内的头条新闻都如此令人困惑。
So could you just share with us the major results of that study and what the key takeaway was so that people who have heard, "Oh, I heard paleo, vegan, vegetarian, Mediterranean, and omnivore," which diet was best, if any, and for what purpose?
那么，您能否与我们分享该研究的主要结果以及关键的结论是什么，以便那些听说过“哦，我听说过原始人饮食、纯素食、素食、地中海饮食和杂食动物”的人知道哪种饮食是最好的（如果有的话）以及目的是什么？
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
At the end of the day, my take-- If you put all of my studies together, it's a whole food, plant-based diet, which does not mean vegan and doesn't mean vegetarian, but could.
归根结底，我的看法是——如果你把我所有的研究放在一起，那就是一种全食、植物性饮食，这并不意味着纯素食，也不意味着素食，但可以。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wait, plant-based but includes meat?
等等，以植物为基础但包括肉类？
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So I don't like this new thing about plant-based being vegan.
所以我不喜欢植物性素食这个新事物。
Sorry.
抱歉。
So we're not-
所以我们不是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a terrible name.
这是一个可怕的名字。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
So let's just do this for 60 seconds.
所以我们就这样做 60 秒。
So pescatarian, lacto-ovo vegetarian, lacto-vegetarian, ovo vegetarian, vegan, flexitarian-
所以鱼素主义者、乳蛋素食主义者、乳素食主义者、蛋素食主义者、纯素食主义者、弹性素食主义者-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Flexitarian
弹性素食主义者
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
...
...
reducitarian.
还原论者。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh my goodness.
天哪。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
There's all kinds of words out there.
那里有各种各样的词。
And clearly, one of the ones that doesn't go over well is vegan.
显然，素食主义是最不受欢迎的因素之一。
Vegan is very polarizing, and a lot of that is because the vegan community-- An important reason many of them are vegan is animal rights and welfare, and it becomes sort of a condescending thing.
素食主义者是非常两极分化的，很大程度上是因为素食主义者社区——他们中的许多人成为素食主义者的一个重要原因是动物权利和福利，这变得有点居高临下。
"Oh my God, you're so unethical and immoral.
“天啊，你真是太不道德了，太不道德了。
You slaughter animals and eat them.
你宰杀动物并吃掉它们。
I am holier than thou.
我比你更圣洁。
I don't." So-
我不。”所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, and then it gets into issues whether or not a vegan is wearing leather shoes or not wearing leather shoes.
好吧，然后就出现了素食主义者是否穿皮鞋的问题。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the vegan community historically was very closely tied to the animal rights community-
从历史上看，纯素食群体与动物权利群体有着非常密切的联系——
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
some of which were radical animal rights activists-
其中一些是激进的动物权利活动家——
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that blew up buildings and-
炸毁了建筑物并且-
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
worse.
更糟。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Totally agree.
完全同意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know people who have been targeted by those explosions.
我认识那些成为爆炸袭击目标的人。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
I have been plant-based vegan for many, many years.
我多年来一直坚持植物性素食。
And I haven't blown up any buildings and I haven't thrown any red paint-
我没有炸毁任何建筑物，也没有扔任何红色油漆-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I believe you
我相信你
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
...
...
on anybody wearing a fur.
任何穿着皮草的人。
But because that was so polarizing recently-- And I think this is going to have a backlash and it's going to be failed.
但因为最近这种两极分化非常严重——我认为这会引起强烈反对，并且会失败。
People have been using plant-based as a different word for vegan.
人们一直使用植物基作为素食主义者的不同词。
Just like, "Oh, we're not the polarizing group, we're the plant-based," which is not polarizing.
就像，“哦，我们不是两极分化的群体，我们是以植物为基础的”，这不是两极分化。
So I've been doing this for 30 years.
所以我已经这样做了30年。
When I said plant-based for the last 20 years, I meant most of it's plants and some of it's dairy and some of it's meat.
过去 20 年，当我说植物性食品时，我的意思是大部分是植物，还有一些是乳制品，还有一些是肉类。
So I actually use it differently than what it has just morphed into recently.
所以我实际上使用它的方式与它最近刚刚演变的方式有所不同。
So when I say whole food, plant-based diet, that could be 25% animal products, it could be 30% animal products, it could be 10%, it could be zero animal products, but it'd be mostly plants.
因此，当我说全食、植物性饮食时，可能是 25% 的动物产品，可能是 30% 的动物产品，也可能是 10%，可能是零动物产品，但主要是植物。
This is sort of Michael Pollan's old-
这是迈克尔·波伦的老作品——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
...
...
"Eat food, not too much, mostly plants." So that's what my research would suggest.
“吃食物，不要太多，主要是植物。”这就是我的研究所建议的。
The vegans did better than the omnivores in our twin study that was featured on Netflix.
在我们的双胞胎研究中，纯素食者比杂食者表现得更好，该研究已在 Netflix 上播出。
The Mediterranean versus the keto diet, it's a little more subtle.
地中海饮食与生酮饮食相比，要微妙一些。
We might have to get into that.
我们可能必须深入探讨这一点。
The low carb versus low fat was very specifically for weight loss.
低碳水化合物与低脂肪非常适合减肥。
So another issue here is what's the goal?
那么这里的另一个问题是目标是什么？
Is it a weight loss thing?
是减肥的事吗？
Is it a cardio-- You have to think about the exposure in the population.
它是有氧运动吗——你必须考虑人群中的暴露情况。
So the DietFit study, my most famous study with the 600 people, is really fun to where we had unlimited funds, mostly from NIH, but some from the Nutrition Science Initiative that Peter Attia and Gary Taubes led.
因此，DietFit 研究是我对 600 人进行的最著名的研究，对于我们拥有无限资金的地方来说真的很有趣，这些资金大部分来自 NIH，但也有一些来自 Peter Attia 和 Gary Taubes 领导的营养科学计划。
If it's okay if I go here just for a minute, I had done another study before that called the A to Z study, and A was Atkins, and T was a traditional health professional's approach, and O was Ornish, and Z was Zone.
如果我可以在这里讲一分钟的话，我之前做过另一项研究，称为 A 到 Z 研究，A 是阿特金斯，T 是传统健康专业人士的方法，O 是奥尼什，Z 是区域。
And three of those were popular books that were bestsellers and they were wildly different in carbs and fats.
其中三本是畅销书，它们的碳水化合物和脂肪含量截然不同。
Atkins was super low carb, Ornish was super high carb, Zone was in the middle, and the traditional health professional's approach was the control.
阿特金斯是超低碳水化合物，奥尼什是超高碳水化合物，Zone 处于中间，传统健康专业人士的方法是对照。
We had 311 women who did it for a year, and it was a weight loss study.
我们有 311 名女性做了一年的减肥研究。
And at the end of the day, when we published the paper in JAMA, they were a few pounds different.
最终，当我们在《美国医学会杂志》上发表这篇论文时，它们之间存在着几磅的差异。
The only statistically significant difference was between Atkins and Zone, which was weird because those were the two low carb diets.
唯一具有统计学意义的差异是阿特金斯饮食和区域饮食之间的差异，这很奇怪，因为这是两种低碳水化合物饮食。
You would've thought maybe it's Atkins versus Ornish, the two extreme diets, but those weren't different.
你可能会认为这可能是阿特金斯饮食法与奥尼什饮食法这两种极端饮食法，但其实它们并没有什么不同。
When I looked at that study published in 2007, what really struck me was not the small differences between groups, but the within-group differences, which were massive in every one of the groups.
当我看到 2007 年发表的这项研究时，真正让我震惊的不是组间的微小差异，而是组内的差异，每个组中的差异都很大。
Seventy-five women in a group.
七十五名女性为一组。
Somebody had lost 30, 40, and 50 pounds, and somebody had gained five or 10.
有人减重 30 磅、40 磅、50 磅，有人增重 5 磅或 10 磅。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
And I thought, "Oh my God, the difference within the diets is way cooler than the average difference between the diets." I'm starting to learn about insulin resistance.
我想，“天哪，饮食之间的差异比饮食之间的平均差异要酷得多。”我开始了解胰岛素抵抗。
I'm starting to learn about genetic predisposition, which is sort of where our conversation started today.
我开始了解遗传倾向，这就是我们今天谈话的开始。
Ah.
啊。
Maybe I should be looking at these personal factors, these predisposing factors, so I could help see if somebody was better on one versus another.
也许我应该考虑这些个人因素，这些诱发因素，这样我就可以帮助了解某人是否在某一方面比另一方面更好。
And as we looked through our data and the rest of the literature, the two things that arose were insulin resistance may be better on low carb because folks who are insulin resistant have a hard time putting away carbs.
当我们查看我们的数据和其他文献时，出现的两件事是胰岛素抵抗可能对低碳水化合物更好，因为胰岛素抵抗的人很难戒掉碳水化合物。
So the low fat is problematic if it's high carb.
因此，如果碳水化合物含量高，那么低脂肪就会出现问题。
And genetic predisposition.
以及遗传倾向。
There was a group called Interleukin Genetics that came and looked at some of our data and said, "Oh my God, we actually have a three-SNP, single nucleotide polymorphism, a three-SNP multilocus genotype pattern that we hypothesize predicts who's low fat and low carb." And we said, "NIH, would you fund this?" And they did.
有一个叫做 Interleukin Genetics 的小组过来查看了我们的一些数据，然后说：“天啊，我们实际上有一个三 SNP、单核苷酸多态性、一个三 SNP 多位点基因型模式，我们假设它可以预测谁是低脂肪和低碳水化合物的。”我们说，“NIH，你会资助这个吗？”他们做到了。
And we got this extra money from the Nutrition Science Initiative.
我们从营养科学倡议中获得了这笔额外资金。
We got 600 people.
我们有 600 人。
We randomized them for a year.
我们将他们随机分组一年。
Everybody was into it.
每个人都热衷于它。
It was just like the best, highest rigor, highest generalizability study I've ever done.
这就像我做过的最好的、最严格的、最高概括性的研究。
And importantly, there was no average difference at the end of the year in the two groups, which is actually exactly what we wanted.
重要的是，两组在年底时没有平均差异，这实际上正是我们想要的。
If we had a high quality of low carb and low fat, we assumed that the average difference would be negligible based on our past work, but we would get this range, and we did.
如果我们有高质量的低碳水化合物和低脂肪，我们认为根据我们过去的工作，平均差异可以忽略不计，但我们会得到这个范围，我们做到了。
This time, somebody had lost 60 pounds, and somebody had gained 20 in both groups.
这次，两组中有人减掉了 60 磅，有人增加了 20 磅。
And it was a continuum.
这是一个连续体。
It's like, ah, this is perfect.
就像，啊，这太完美了。
We are going to have a chance to explain this variability with a oral glucose tolerance test, which is sort of state-of-the-art other than the steady-state plasma glucose thing Jerry Reaven does, which is too intense and too expensive.
我们将有机会通过口服葡萄糖耐量测试来解释这种变异性，这是最先进的，而不是杰里·里文（Jerry Reaven）所做的稳态血浆葡萄糖测试，后者太强烈且太昂贵。
Oral glucose tolerance test, much better than a fasting glucose.
口服葡萄糖耐量试验，比空腹血糖好得多。
And we'll genotype them.
我们将对它们进行基因分型。
And neither of them predicted the variability-
他们都没有预测到这种变化——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But that just means it was the wrong-
但这仅仅意味着这是错误的——
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
...
...
in the two diets
在两种饮食中
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the wrong probe.
错误的探头。
You were using the wrong test to try and address this correlation.
您使用了错误的测试来尝试解决这种相关性。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
So a postdoc looked at me afterward and said, "There are like 50 single nucleotide polymorphisms that have been linked to obesity, and you tested one set of three of them.
一位博士后后来看着我说：“大约有 50 个单核苷酸多态性与肥胖有关，你测试了其中三个的一组。
So that does mean there's 999,999 other genetic probes or tests that you could use, and you've disproved one of them." And I said, "Yeah." But the insulin resistance one was very popular.
所以这确实意味着你可以使用 999,999 种其他基因探针或测试，并且你已经推翻了其中一种。”我说：“是的。”但胰岛素抵抗这一问题非常受欢迎。
There were a bunch of studies that had done this.
有很多研究已经做到了这一点。
And I have to share a really funny comment that Gary Taubes made while we were doing this, because Gary Taubes was involved in NUSI.
我必须分享加里·陶布斯 (Gary Taubes) 在我们这样做时发表的一个非常有趣的评论，因为加里·陶布斯 (Gary Taubes) 参与了 NUSI。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's he best known for?
他最出名的是什么？
Could you just-
你能不能-
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Low carb.
低碳水化合物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Low carb.
低碳水化合物。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
So Gary Taubes is a low carb fanatic.
所以加里·陶布斯（Gary Taubes）是一个低碳水化合物狂热分子。
And he gives excellent talks.
他的演讲非常精彩。
He can riff on and on about data and data and data.
他可以不停地重复数据、数据和数据。
But I have to tell you a funny comment that he made as we got to the end of this study.
但我必须告诉你一个有趣的评论，他是在我们结束这项研究时发表的。
He said, "I realized now that you're at the end and you're about to publish it, that you screwed up the study." I said, "How did I screw up the study?" And he said, "Well, for the low fat group, you told them not to have added sugar or refined grain, even though those are low fat." And I said, "Well, yeah, actually, we told both groups to have a really healthy diet, and added sugar and refined grains aren't healthy." And he said, "Well, that's going to diminish the chance to see a difference because most people who are eating low carb versus the traditional low fat do better because the low fatters eating high carb are eating added sugar and refined grain." I thought, "That's not screwing the study up.
他说：“我现在意识到，你已经到了最后并且即将发表它，但你搞砸了这项研究。”我说：“我怎么搞砸了这项研究？”他说：“好吧，对于低脂肪群体，你告诉他们不要添加糖或精制谷物，即使它们是低脂肪的。”我说，“嗯，是的，实际上，我们告诉两组人要有真正健康的饮食，添加糖和精制谷物并不健康。”他说，“嗯，这会减少看到差异的机会，因为大多数吃低碳水化合物的人与传统低脂饮食的人相比，效果更好，因为吃高碳水化合物的低脂肪者吃的是添加糖和精制谷物。”我想：“这并没有搞砸研究。
That's doing the equipoise thing."
这就是在做平衡的事情。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
I saw a lot of literature showing that insulin resistance did suggest that there was a subset of the population that would do better on low carb than low fat.
我看到很多文献表明，胰岛素抵抗确实表明，有一部分人吃低碳水化合物比吃低脂肪效果更好。
And we've actually now followed up on that study with a ketogenic versus a Mediterranean diet study.
实际上，我们现在已经通过生酮与地中海饮食研究来跟进该研究。
And in that particular study, the way we set it up is both groups would get a lot of above-ground vegetables, which keto says is okay, avoid added sugar and refined grain.
在那个特定的研究中，我们设置的方式是两组都会得到大量的地上蔬菜，酮说这是可以的，避免添加糖和精制谷物。
And keto would have no beans, no fruits, no whole grains.
酮不会有豆类、水果、全谷物。
And Mediterranean would embrace beans and whole grains and fruits.
地中海则包括豆类、全谷物和水果。
And so they didn't have a glycosylated hemoglobin difference.
所以他们没有糖基化血红蛋白差异。
That was a primary outcome listed on clinicaltrials.gov.
这是 ClinicalTrials.gov 上列出的主要结果。
The keto diet raised LDL.
生酮饮食会升高低密度脂蛋白。
The keto diet did actually a better job lowering triglycerides than Mediterranean.
生酮饮食实际上比地中海饮食在降低甘油三酯方面效果更好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The keto diet did better at lowering triglycerides-
生酮饮食在降低甘油三酯方面效果更好-
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
than Mediterranean?
比地中海？
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That surprises me.
这让我很惊讶。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
No, because they did better at wiping out carbs.
不，因为它们在消除碳水化合物方面做得更好。
When you wipe out all your carbs, then those extra carbs don't go into your liver to make triglycerides.
当您消除所有碳水化合物时，这些多余的碳水化合物就不会进入您的肝脏产生甘油三酯。
Not surprised.
并不感到惊讶。
And the keto diet was higher-
酮饮食更高——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay
好的
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
...
...
in saturated fat, so it raised the LDL.
饱和脂肪，因此它提高了低密度脂蛋白。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the Mediterranean diet carbs generally are pretty "healthy" carbs.
但地中海饮食中的碳水化合物通常是相当“健康”的碳水化合物。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yes, and that's the point.
是的，这就是重点。
So can we go back there for a minute?
那么我们可以回到那里一分钟吗？
So to me, that is the point of sort of looking at this equipoise.
所以对我来说，这就是看待这种平衡的意义所在。
So when we made the low carb and the low fat both healthy, our primary predictive outcomes, the genotype thing and the insulin resistance didn't work.
因此，当我们使低碳水化合物和低脂肪都健康时，我们的主要预测结果、基因型和胰岛素抵抗就不起作用了。
And what we took home from that message is you could do either one.
我们从该信息中得到的教训是，您可以选择其中任何一个。
If you do them in a healthy way, it would be okay.
如果你以健康的方式去做，那就没问题了。
And when we took it to ketogenic and Mediterranean, they both lowered glycosylated hemoglobin.
当我们将其用于生酮和地中海时，它们都降低了糖基化血红蛋白。
The keto had a worse effect on LDL, but a better effect on triglycerides.
酮对低密度脂蛋白的影响较差，但对甘油三酯的影响较好。
But as we tracked the adherence, people couldn't adhere to the keto.
但当我们追踪坚持情况时，人们无法坚持酮。
They couldn't maintain that really low level of carb and the really low level of fat.
他们无法维持极低水平的碳水化合物和极低水平的脂肪。
And so as you're working through these questions, those are the subtle nuances in nutrition that you just said the poor public, and I agree Looks at so many of these and says, "Oh my God, you guys can't agree." Can I go back to the fact that I've actually helped American Diabetes with their guidelines?
因此，当您解决这些问题时，这些是您刚才对贫困公众所说的营养方面的微妙差别，我同意看着这么多这样的问题并说，“天哪，你们不能同意。”我可以回到我实际上帮助美国糖尿病协会制定指导方针的事实吗？
I work a lot with the American Heart Association.
我与美国心脏协会做了很多工作。
I just rotated off the Dietary Guidelines Advisory Committee, and when there are scientists looking at nutrition data, we almost always agree.
我刚刚从膳食指南咨询委员会轮换出来，当科学家研究营养数据时，我们几乎总是同意。
Nutrition scientists don't really disagree.
营养学家并不完全不同意。
We're almost boringly more in agreement than most people think.
令人无聊的是，我们的共识比大多数人想象的要多。
And what's fun for me personally, why I get up in the morning and stay up late at night is the way you do science around food is fascinating and complicated.
对我个人而言，有趣的是，为什么我早上起床，晚上熬夜，围绕食物进行科学研究的方式令人着迷且复杂。
And the reason I'm on your show today is because I think if we had more of an opportunity to explain some of these subtle nuances, people would understand that the extremes probably aren't going to help you.
我今天参加你们的节目是因为我认为如果我们有更多的机会来解释其中一些微妙的细微差别，人们就会明白极端可能不会对你们有帮助。
There's really some middle of the road stuff, like a whole food, plant-based diet, where you could be vegan, you could be vegetarian.
确实有一些中间道路的东西，比如全食、植物性饮食，你可以是素食主义者，你可以是素食主义者。
If you are vegan, you could be a crappy vegan.
如果你是素食主义者，你可能是一个蹩脚的素食主义者。
You could have Coke, french fries, and Oreos.
你可以喝可乐、炸薯条和奥利奥。
Those are all vegan.
这些都是素食主义者。
If you were keto, you could be eating a whole bunch of meat, which is super low carb, but a keto diet is all fat.
如果你是生酮饮食，你可能会吃一大堆肉，这是超低碳水化合物的，但生酮饮食全都是脂肪。
It's really not a lot of protein and meat.
其实蛋白质和肉的含量并不多。
So it's fun to come on your show and have the chance to dive a little deeper and talk to the listeners about some of the important facts that get a little obscured when the social influencers or the headline is just capturing an overall message without seeing some of the rest of this.
因此，参加您的节目并有机会更深入地探讨并与听众讨论一些重要事实是很有趣的，当社会影响者或标题只是捕获整体信息而没有看到其余部分时，这些事实会变得有点模糊。
How do we communicate this in a fun way?
我们如何以有趣的方式传达这一点？
And the personal way I've been doing this, actually, my career has shifted now.
实际上，我个人的做法现在已经发生了转变。
I now work a lot with the CIA.
我现在在中央情报局工作很多。
I am on the scientific advisory board of the CIA.
我是中央情报局科学顾问委员会的成员。
Not the Pentagon one, the Culinary Institute of America.
不是五角大楼，而是美国烹饪学院。
And what's really been fun about them is how much they appreciate taste, energy, taste.
他们真正有趣的是他们非常欣赏品味、能量、品味。
The things that people really care about, not some of my P values and my statistics and my equipoise.
人们真正关心的事情，而不是我的一些 P 值、我的统计数据和我的平衡。
They want the aesthetic.
他们想要审美。
They want to look good personally.
他们希望个人看起来不错。
They want the food to look good, taste good, be accessible.
他们希望食物看起来好、味道好、容易获得。
So I've been doing some new fun studies where chefs are sort of leading the way.
所以我一直在做一些新的有趣的研究，厨师们在某种程度上起到了带头作用。
So I'm pretty much against this whole protein craze thing that's going on, and the Culinary Institute of America has introduced this concept called the protein flip, where instead of having a massive piece of flesh in the middle of the plate with maybe some vegetables and starch on the side, it's vegetables and grains and beans in the middle of the plate with an African, Asian, Mediterranean, Latin American emphasis, and the meat is two ounces, or it's a condiment, or it's a side dish.
所以我非常反对正在发生的整个蛋白质热潮，美国烹饪学院引入了这个称为蛋白质翻转的概念，它不是在盘子中间放一大块肉，旁边可能放一些蔬菜和淀粉，而是在盘子中间放蔬菜、谷物和豆类，重点是非洲、亚洲、地中海、拉丁美洲，肉是两盎司，或者是调味品，或者是配菜。
And it's like making the aesthetics look good, making it taste great.
这就像让美学变得好看，让味道变得很棒。
So the phrase I use is from Greg Drescher from the CIA, "Unapologetically delicious." So I'm hoping to have the science in my back pocket.
所以我用的这句话来自中央情报局的格雷格·德雷舍（Greg Drescher），“毫无歉意的美味”。所以我希望能把科学放在我的口袋里。
I'm a card-carrying PhD nutrition scientist.
我是一名名副其实的营养学博士。
I got the science.
我明白了科学。
We'll probably go there later.
我们可能稍后会去那里。
I got the environment in my back pocket, too.
我也把环境放在我的后口袋里。
But don't beat people over the head with that.
但不要用这个来打别人的头。
Beat people over the head with, "Oh, this is going to blow your frigging taste buds away.
敲打别人的头说：“哦，这会让你的味蕾大吃一惊。
This is so good."
这太好了。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, that's a good incentive.
嗯，这是一个很好的激励。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Working with chefs has been very fun.
与厨师一起工作非常有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, that's a good incentive.
是的，这是一个很好的激励。
I would like to just offer the opportunity, you don't have to take it, but offer the opportunity to finally at least start to do away with this ridiculous naming, which is plant-based.
我只想提供这个机会，你不必接受它，但提供机会最终至少开始废除这种基于植物的荒谬命名。
I have to say that, again, I've spent a good amount of time in the public health sphere and public education sphere.
我不得不再说一遍，我在公共卫生领域和公共教育领域花费了大量时间。
How things are named means everything.
事物的命名方式意味着一切。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If there's ever a hope to get people eating more, let's just say fiber from vegetables and maybe fruit also, that sooner or later, this plant-based naming, I'm going to say, has got to go.
如果有希望让人们吃得更多，就说来自蔬菜的纤维，也许还有水果，我想说，这种基于植物的命名迟早必须消失。
It just is never going to work because people hear that and they hear vegan.
它永远不会起作用，因为人们听到了这个，他们听到了素食主义者。
It's just been too long.
只是时间太久了。
It's been too long.
已经太久了。
It sort of defies any kind of logic to think that the public will eventually think that plant-based includes meat.
认为公众最终会认为植物性食品包括肉类，这有点违背任何逻辑。
I think there just needs to be a new name.
我认为只需要一个新名字。
So I don't expect you to come up with one on the fly, but could we call it plant-biased perhaps?
所以我不指望你能立即想出一个，但我们可以称之为植物偏向吗？
Or just omnivore.
或者只是杂食动物。
What's wrong with healthy omnivore?
健康的杂食动物有什么问题？
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Omnivore is fine.
杂食性就好。
Plant-forward, people have used.
植物前移，人们已经使用过。
Plant-centric, people have used.
以植物为中心，人们已经使用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think as long as it's just-- Plant-forward just sounds like no meat.
我认为只要它只是 - 植物前向听起来就像没有肉。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
So let me tell you a funny story.
那么让我告诉你一个有趣的故事。
So I participate in something called the Google Food Lab, which is a whole bunch of people that come together for Googley casual collisions twice a year.
所以我参加了一个叫做“谷歌食品实验室”的活动，这是一大群人每年聚集在一起进行两次谷歌式的随意碰撞。
And at one of these twice-a-year events, probably a decade ago, it's usually a two-day event, and they have all kinds of different talks and sometimes breakout groups.
在这些一年两次的活动中，可能是十年前，通常是为期两天的活动，他们有各种不同的演讲，有时还有分组讨论。
They had for a whole hour and a half, two hours, we separated into 10 tables, and the challenge was, with 100 really bright people, all from the food industry, to come up with options for plant-based, and they failed.
他们花了整整一个半小时、两个小时，我们分成 10 张桌子，面临的挑战是，有 100 名来自食品行业的非常聪明的人，想出植物性食品的选择，但他们失败了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
New names.
新名字。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Two hours.
两个小时。
Two hours, 100 people couldn't come up with a name that everybody agreed on.
两个小时内，100 个人未能想出一个大家都同意的名字。
So it's a problem.
所以这是一个问题。
It's going to-
它将——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That sounds like a psychological problem.
这听起来像是一个心理问题。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
We need more marketers-
我们需要更多的营销人员——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
...
...
and we need more infographic people-
我们需要更多的信息图表人员-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
...
...
to help with this thing.
来帮忙做这件事。
But these were all really bright people, so I agree the naming is problematic.
但这些人都是非常聪明的人，所以我同意命名是有问题的。
Instead of naming it something, let's just point out that Americans eat more meat than anyone else in the world.
我们不去命名它，而是指出美国人吃的肉比世界上其他任何人都多。
If you see these WHO, World Health Organization graphics of who eats how much meat, it is the US and Canada and some European countries that eat the most.
如果你看到这些谁吃多少肉的世界卫生组织图表，你会发现吃肉最多的是美国、加拿大和一些欧洲国家。
And there are countries who eat the least, and they have limited access to foods, and some of those countries would benefit from more meat per person because really they're eating cereal.
有些国家吃得最少，而且他们获得食物的机会有限，其中一些国家将受益于人均更多的肉类，因为他们实际上吃的是谷物。
They're eating dry cereal-based foods that honestly just don't have the full nutrition.
他们吃的是干谷物食品，老实说，这些食品缺乏完整的营养。
They're just trying to get enough calories for the day, and it's not just about calories.
他们只是想获得一天足够的卡路里，而这不仅仅是卡路里的问题。
And part of that isn't just access to food.
其中一部分不仅仅是获得食物。
A lot of those are countries where there's political issues, where somebody's actually withholding food or making the distribution of food problematic.
其中很多国家都存在政治问题，有人实际上扣留粮食或造成粮食分配出现问题。
So there's something called the "Lancet Report" that came out in 2019, published in "Lancet," the Eat-Lancet Commission, and came up with a healthy transformative diet for the planet that was the intersection of human and planetary health.
因此，2019 年，饮食委员会在《柳叶刀》上发表了一份名为《柳叶刀报告》的文章，为地球提出了一种健康的变革性饮食，这是人类和地球健康的交叉点。
And it was very little meat.
而且肉很少。
It wasn't vegan.
这不是素食主义者。
It was very little meat, open to the idea that some of these countries that ate the least meat should probably eat more.
肉的含量非常少，人们认为一些吃肉最少的国家可能应该吃更多的肉。
But what was obscene was how much meat is eaten in America compared to the rest of the world.
但令人讨厌的是，与世界其他地区相比，美国的肉食量有多少。
And to eat that much meat and be affordable has led to the concentrated animal feeding operations, which if they had glass walls, probably most of the country would go vegan.
为了吃这么多肉并且负担得起，导致了集中的动物饲养操作，如果他们有玻璃墙，可能全国大部分地区都会成为素食主义者。
If you saw what was happening, not just to the animals, the way that they're raised and the speed, the line speed, part of this is the way the humans are treated who are in the meatpacking industry.
如果你看到正在发生的事情，不仅仅是动物，还有它们的饲养方式、速度、生产线速度，其中一部分就是肉类包装行业中人类的待遇方式。
So it's a very repetitive job.
所以这是一项非常重复的工作。
There's a lot of injuries in that situation, and it's part of the reason we have very inexpensive meat that's very inaccessible.
在这种情况下会造成很多伤害，这也是我们很难获得非常便宜的肉类的部分原因。
There's a guy named Timothy Pachirat who for his doctoral thesis went and worked in a slaughterhouse for a year undercover and published a whole book on this, and the title of the book is "Every Twelve Seconds." And the reason it's titled that is because a new cow came through the slaughter line every 12 seconds, every day, all day, every year.
有一个名叫蒂莫西·帕奇拉特（Timothy Pachirat）的人，为了他的博士论文，去一家屠宰场卧底工作了一年，并就此出版了一整本书，书名是《每十二秒》。之所以命名为这个，是因为每 12 秒就有一头新牛通过屠宰线，每一天、每一天、每年。
And that the ability to protect some animal rights and welfare, the ability to protect the rights of humans to have some dignity, have people peeing in bottles because they can't leave the line, they can't even take a bathroom break.
保护一些动物权利和福利的能力，保护人类享有一定尊严的权利的能力，让人们在瓶子里撒尿，因为他们不能离开队伍，他们甚至不能上厕所。
It's a messed up food system.
这是一个混乱的食物系统。
So I had an interesting debate with Mark Hyman the other day, who's all into regenerative meat.
所以前几天我和马克·海曼进行了一场有趣的辩论，他非常喜欢再生肉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You mean like regenerative farms?
你是说再生农场之类的吗？
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Regenerative farming?
再生农业？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
On regenerative ranches and said he's all against the CAFOs, the concentrated animal feeding operations, if we could just move all those off to pasture.
在再生牧场方面，他表示，如果我们能够将所有这些动物转移到牧场上，他就完全反对集中饲养动物的集中饲养场。
And he said, "Yeah, we could just do that." And I said, "Do you know how much pasture that would take?" That would take like three planets of agricultural land to move the millions and billions of cattle out of the CAFOs into there.
他说：“是的，我们可以这么做。”我说：“你知道那需要多少牧场吗？”这需要三颗行星的农业用地才能将数以百万计的牛从集中饲养场转移到那里。
So I would like to move in your direction where some meat would be fine if it was raised in a way that didn't require hormones, didn't require antibiotics, didn't require feeding cows corn and soy.
所以我想朝着你的方向前进，如果一些肉的饲养方式不需要激素，不需要抗生素，不需要喂奶牛玉米和大豆，那就可以了。
They're just supposed to graze on grasses, and the corn and soy give them health issues, and so they have to be treated prophylactically for the problems they'll have digestively with that.
它们应该以草为食，而玉米和大豆会给它们带来健康问题，因此必须对它们进行预防性治疗，以应对由此带来的消化问题。
If we could go back to sort of the old animal husbandry of the day when the cattle and the pigs and the chickens were on pasture, we would eat a lot less meat, but we would eat meat that was raised appropriately and would be more healthy, and that would be that middle of the road, where we were having multiple types of wheat, not just the one grain that grows right.
如果我们能回到过去的畜牧业，牛、猪、鸡都在牧场上，我们会少吃很多肉，但我们会吃适当饲养的肉，会更健康，那就是中间道路，我们可以吃多种类型的小麦，而不仅仅是一种生长正常的谷物。
We wouldn't be monocropping corn.
我们不会单一种植玉米。
We wouldn't be monocropping soy, which is mostly going to livestock feed or fuel.
我们不会单一种植大豆，因为大豆主要用作牲畜饲料或燃料。
Very little corn or soy that we grow in the US is eaten directly by humans as corn or soy.
我们在美国种植的玉米或大豆很少被人类直接食用。
I would be all for that if we spread out the meats that way, and it would be better.
如果我们这样把肉摊开，我会全力支持的，而且会更好。
Basically, less meat, better meat-
基本上，肉少，肉好——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
...
...
would work fine.
会工作得很好。
That would be part of a healthier diet for people on the planet.
这将成为地球上人们更健康饮食的一部分。
That meat would cost more.
那个肉会更贵。
Raising it that way would certainly cost more, but if you ate less of it, it wouldn't be that big of a hit on your budget.
以这种方式提高它肯定会花费更多，但如果你吃得少一点，对你的预算不会有太大影响。
So if you had less meat, better quality meat, you might be spending the same amount, but then you could also have more fiber for your microbiome, more other vitamins and minerals, less saturated fat, less hormone, less antibiotics.
因此，如果你吃的肉更少、质量更好，你可能会花同样的钱，但你也可以获得更多的微生物纤维、更多的其他维生素和矿物质、更少的饱和脂肪、更少的激素、更少的抗生素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love hearing that.
我喜欢听这个。
I completely agree, by the way.
顺便说一句，我完全同意。
And I think that there is a theory, right?
我认为有一个理论，对吗？
I forget the name of this theory, that one of the reasons why people in Europe, especially Southern Europe, can eat all these foods that we consider kind of bad for us.
我忘记了这个理论的名称，这是欧洲人，尤其是南欧人可以吃所有这些我们认为对我们有害的食物的原因之一。
They'll have a dessert.
他们会吃甜点。
They have bread.
他们有面包。
They have butter.
他们有黄油。
They have olive oil.
他们有橄榄油。
They eat meat.
他们吃肉。
In fact, they have a fairly pork-rich diet in certain parts of Southern Europe that on average, the obesity rates are much lower.
事实上，在南欧的某些地区，他们的饮食中猪肉含量相当丰富，平均而言，肥胖率要低得多。
And the argument, I think, is that the nutrient density is so high in these well-raised, appropriately raised, and farmed foods that people end up eating less of them.
我认为，争论的焦点在于，这些精心饲养、适当饲养和养殖的食物中的营养密度如此之高，以至于人们最终会减少食用它们。
It's not just that portion sizes are small, it's that the food tastes really good and it's satiating at a level that's different from volume or caloric intake.
不仅仅是份量小，而且食物的味道非常好，并且其饱腹感与体积或热量摄入量不同。
I think so much of what people think tastes good actually is just relative to the fact that they've never tasted a real strawberry.
我认为人们认为味道好的东西实际上很大程度上与他们从未尝过真正的草莓有关。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what we're talking about here is revising the entire food supply.
所以我们在这里讨论的是修改整个食品供应。
And I'm all for it.
我完全赞成。
I really am.
我确实是。
I'm all for it because addressing this from the level of following this diet or that diet, at least according to your work, doesn't really seem to be the best approach, assuming that what people really are after is the experience of food.
我完全支持它，因为从遵循这种饮食或那种饮食的水平来解决这个问题，至少根据你的工作，似乎并不是最好的方法，假设人们真正追求的是食物的体验。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Right.
对。
And that's why it's so fun now working with chefs.
这就是为什么现在与厨师一起工作如此有趣。
So really our emphasis for right now, think about educating the population.
所以我们现在真正的重点是考虑教育民众。
That usually doesn't work.
这通常是行不通的。
This is a big shift potentially that we're talking about.
这是我们正在谈论的潜在的重大转变。
If you tied this to the environment, we're kind of on a horrific path to not having enough air and land and whatever, water to do this.
如果你把这与环境联系起来，我们就走上了一条可怕的道路，没有足够的空气、土地和水来做到这一点。
But in the US, at least 50% of food is eaten outside of the home.
但在美国，至少 50% 的食物是在户外吃的。
And if you think of a group like the Culinary Institute of America that trains chefs, you might think chefs, I bet their goal is to be in a three-star Michelin restaurant.
如果你想到像美国烹饪学院这样培训厨师的团体，你可能会想到厨师，我敢打赌他们的目标是进入米其林三星级餐厅。
Apparently, they've trained 55,000 chefs to date, and very few of them run Michelin three-star restaurants.
显然，他们迄今为止已经培训了 55,000 名厨师，其中很少有人经营米其林三星级餐厅。
They're in hospitals, they're in the Marriott Hotel, they're in universities.
他们在医院、在万豪酒店、在大学。
They're in schools.
他们在学校。
More of them could be in schools.
其中更多的人可能在学校。
And really, their gift, their superpower, is taking different food sources and putting them together in flavorful ways that people enjoy.
事实上，他们的天赋，他们的超能力，就是采用不同的食物来源，并以人们喜欢的美味方式将它们组合在一起。
And so my current interest, actually in working with the new Doerr School of Sustainability at Stanford, is to bring the chefs in and to think of these institutional food settings where so many people are eating at the work site, at the school, while they're visiting the hospital, whatever, and their choices are different, and they taste good, and they look good, and in the back pocket, they're actually good for you nutritionally, and they're actually good for the environment.
因此，我目前的兴趣，实际上是与斯坦福大学新成立的杜尔可持续发展学院合作，是让厨师们进来并思考这些机构食品环境，很多人在工作场所、在学校、在参观医院时都在吃饭，无论如何，他们的选择是不同的，它们味道很好，看起来不错，而且在后口袋里，它们实际上对你的营养有好处，而且它们实际上对环境也有好处。
We don't have to teach any about this.
我们不需要教任何这方面的东西。
We work with the chefs, chefs and scientists and business people.
我们与厨师、厨师、科学家和商人合作。
This group that I work with at the Culinary Institute of America, about 12 years ago, I was invited to something that's now called the Menus of Change.
大约 12 年前，我在美国烹饪学院工作的这个小组受邀参加了现在被称为“变革菜单”的活动。
And for the Menus of Change, the background to this was the chefs were getting very frustrated that it was gluten-free one day and then vegan and then keto and then paleo, and they sort of were getting this popular demand to change their menu design and to change some of the equipment that they had, and they were getting a little frustrated at the leadership level, thinking, "Why are we being so reactive?
对于菜单的改变，其背景是厨师们感到非常沮丧，因为有一天它是无麸质的，然后是纯素食的，然后是酮类的，然后是古式的，他们接到了这种流行的要求，要求改变他们的菜单设计并改变他们拥有的一些设备，他们在领导层感到有点沮丧，他们想，“为什么我们如此反应？
Couldn't we be more proactive?
我们就不能更主动一些吗？
We're the chefs.
我们是厨师。
Can't we help with food demand?
我们不能帮助满足粮食需求吗？
Because we can make it taste good." So they got a science board together to say, "Okay, the science doesn't really change.
因为我们可以让它味道好。”所以他们成立了一个科学委员会，说：“好吧，科学并没有真正改变。
These things are healthy." They got a business board together, like, they have to stay in business.
这些东西都是健康的。”他们成立了一个商业委员会，就像，他们必须继续经营下去。
The customers have to come back, and they have to pay so we can stay in business.
顾客必须回来，他们必须付款，这样我们才能继续营业。
And they had a chef board who said, "This is our craft.
他们有一个厨师委员会说：“这是我们的手艺。
This is what we want to do for our life.
这就是我们一生想要做的事情。
We want to help people eat." And they sort of put all three of these groups together with their recommendations, and they came up with what's called the 24 Principles of the Menus of Change.
我们想帮助人们吃饭。”他们将所有这三个群体及其建议结合在一起，提出了所谓的“变革菜单 24 条原则”。
Twelve of the principles are food and nutrition oriented, and 12 of them are operationally oriented.
其中 12 项原则以食品和营养为导向，其中 12 项以操作为导向。
Choose locally when you can, celebrate diversity, source local.
尽可能选择本地产品，庆祝多样性，采购本地产品。
A whole bunch of different principles.
一大堆不同的原则。
And the idea was there, they would take the set of principles to these institutional food settings where they order pallets of food every day.
他们的想法就在那里，他们将把一套原则应用到这些每天订购托盘食物的机构食品环境中。
They don't just go to the grocery store and, "I'm going to buy the organic one instead of the conventional one.
他们不只是去杂货店，“我要买有机食品，而不是传统食品。
I'm going to buy the regenerative meat instead of the other meat." They're going to order crap tons of food for everybody.
我要买再生肉而不是其他肉。”他们将为每个人订购大量食物。
And the idea was that if you could do that across these different institutions, you could change the palate.
我们的想法是，如果你能在这些不同的机构中做到这一点，你就可以改变口味。
You could show people, here's some great-tasting things that really hit the intersection of taste and health and the environment all at once.
你可以向人们展示，这里有一些美味的东西，它们真正同时满足了口味、健康和环境的交集。
So personally, this is what I'm most excited about, is keeping my PhD in nutrition in my back pocket, doing podcasts with somebody like you, working with these chefs in these different institutional settings, because there's a lot of different ways to eat.
就我个人而言，这是我最兴奋的事情，就是把我的营养学博士学位放在我的后兜里，和像你这样的人一起做播客，在这些不同的机构环境中与这些厨师一起工作，因为有很多不同的饮食方式。
There's a lot of delicious ways to eat, and it would be not too hard to eat more nutritionally beneficially than we do now.
美味的吃法有很多，比我们现在吃得更有营养也不是太难。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, LMNT.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 LMNT。
LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need but nothing you don't.
LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，但没有您不需要的。
That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar.
这意味着电解质、钠、镁和钾的比例都正确，但不含糖。
Proper hydration is critical for optimal brain and body function.
适当的水合作用对于大脑和身体的最佳功能至关重要。
Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish cognitive and physical performance.
即使是轻微程度的脱水也会降低认知和身体表现。
It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes.
获得充足的电解质也很重要。
The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are vital for the functioning of all the cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells.
电解质（钠、镁和钾）对于体内所有细胞（尤其是神经元或神经细胞）的功能至关重要。
Drinking LMNT dissolved in water makes it extremely easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes.
饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT 可以非常轻松地确保您获得足够的水分和电解质。
To make sure that I'm getting proper amounts of hydration and electrolytes, I dissolve one packet of LMNT in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I wake up in the morning, and I drink that basically first thing in the morning.
为了确保我获得适量的水合作用和电解质，当我早上醒来时，我将一包 LMNT 溶解在大约 16 至 32 盎司的水中，并且我基本上早上第一件事就是喝它。
I also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and therefore losing a lot of water and electrolytes.
我还会在进行任何体育锻炼时饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT，尤其是在炎热的天气里，因为我会大量出汗，从而失去大量的水和电解质。
They have a bunch of different great-tasting flavors of LMNT.
他们有多种不同口味的 LMNT。
They have watermelon, citrus, et cetera.
他们有西瓜、柑橘等。
Frankly, I love them all.
坦白说，我爱他们所有人。
If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with the purchase of any LMNT drink mix.
如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman，购买任何 LMNT 混合饮料即可领取免费 LMNT 样品包。
Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.
再次强调，请访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman 索取免费样品包。
I didn't think we were going to land where we happen to be now, but I'm excited that we are because I came into this conversation wanting to talk to you about, and we will talk about, for instance, protein recommendations or-
我不认为我们会达到现在的水平，但我很高兴我们做到了，因为我参加这次对话是想和你们谈谈，例如，我们将讨论蛋白质建议或-
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Good
好
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
food additives, which we touched on.
我们谈到的食品添加剂。
What I'm hearing now is really surprising and exciting but very practical.
我现在所听到的确实令人惊讶和兴奋，但也非常实用。
And here's what I'm hearing, that we can talk about macronutrients, micronutrients, food supply, environment, long-term and short-term health until the end of time, and ultimately, people are going to try different things or not try different things and go with what works for them.
这就是我听到的，我们可以谈论常量营养素、微量营养素、食物供应、环境、长期和短期健康，直到时间结束，最终，人们会尝试不同的东西，或者不尝试不同的东西，并选择对他们有效的东西。
However, if we want to create a wholesale change in everything from the food supply to what people consider appetizing and what they consume, we need to focus on taste.
然而，如果我们想在从食品供应到人们认为开胃的食物和消费的所有方面进行全面改变，我们需要关注口味。
As you were describing this thing with chefs, what I heard in my head was, well, that's great for me because I'm near Stanford, at least part of the time, and I can benefit from all this great-tasting food.
当你和厨师们描述这件事时，我在脑海中听到的是，嗯，这对我来说很好，因为我靠近斯坦福大学，至少部分时间是这样，我可以从所有这些美味的食物中受益。
But I could also hear the many millions of people listening to this who are going to say, "Yeah, that's great for Stanford, but how do I access this delicious food?" Kind of like F you.
但我也能听到数以百万计的听众会说，“是的，这对斯坦福大学来说很棒，但我如何获得这种美味的食物呢？”有点像F你。
But then I came to the clarity, and I think this is what you're getting at, which is if you can cook really well, healthy, great-tasting food that's great for the environment, et cetera, for a big group of people, hundreds of thousands of people, five days a week, then certainly there's a version of that for a family that's affordable.
但后来我明白了，我想这就是你要表达的意思，那就是，如果你能烹饪出非常好的、健康的、美味的、对环境有益的食物，等等，对于一大群人，数十万人，每周五天，那么肯定有一个家庭负担得起的版本。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And what it takes us to is less a focus on one form of diet versus another, but to the ...
我们要做的不是关注一种饮食形式与另一种饮食形式，而是关注……
kind of return to, or maybe it's never good to talk about going back to something, to look toward people getting more involved in preparing their food again.
某种意义上的回归，或者说谈论回归某件事、期待人们再次更多地参与准备食物从来都不是一件好事。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yep, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
It's sort of like a discussion about health where you have to tell people, "Listen, I can't take away the need for you to get your heart rate up.
这有点像关于健康的讨论，你必须告诉人们，“听着，我不能消除你提高心率的需要。
You got to do cardiovascular exercise.
你必须做心血管锻炼。
There is no peptide or even hormone that we can give you in pill or injection form that's going to offset the sarcopenia.
我们没有任何肽甚至激素可以以药丸或注射剂的形式提供给您来抵消肌肉减少症。
You have to do something." It's called do resistance training of some sort.
你必须做点什么。”这就是所谓的某种阻力训练。
I tell my 80-year-old mother this.
我告诉我80岁的母亲这件事。
She lifts weights, and I'm so grateful she does.
她举重，我很感激她这么做。
Right?
正确的？
But 30 years ago, I should point out, you and I know this, but for a lot of the audience, the idea that a woman would lift weights, much less-
但三十年前，我应该指出，你和我都知道这一点，但对于很多观众来说，女性会举重的想法，更不用说——
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a 80-year-old woman-
一位80岁的老太太——
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in service to her health, it would just be outrageous.
为了她的健康，这实在是太离谱了。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It would be all like just thoughts about bodybuilding and football players.
这就像关于健美和足球运动员的想法。
No one went to gyms besides those guys.
除了那些家伙之外，没有人去健身房。
So what I'm hearing is we need to get back to interacting with our food differently, and that the convenience of ultra-processed food is really what was the entry to this whole thing.
所以我听到的是，我们需要重新以不同的方式与食物互动，而超加工食品的便利性确实是整个事情的入口。
And maybe what we need to do is figure out how acquisition and preparation of quality food can be more accessible and can be commoditized in a positive way, in the positive sense of the word.
也许我们需要做的是弄清楚如何更容易获得和准备优质食品，并以积极的方式将其商品化，从积极的意义上来说。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
And going back to the Stanford only thing, part of this argument was, so the central campus of the Culinary Institute of America is Hyde Park, New York, in the Hudson Valley.
回到斯坦福大学，这个争论的一部分是，美国烹饪学院的中心校区是纽约州哈德逊河谷的海德公园。
And most of the 55,000 chefs that have graduated from their program are all over the country and the world.
从该项目毕业的 55,000 名厨师中，大多数遍布全国和世界各地。
They could be in a Marriott Hotel in one place and in a school district in another place.
他们可能在一个地方的万豪酒店，在另一个地方的学区。
Let me take a quick run at this.
让我快速浏览一下。
2010, Michelle Obama thought maybe much like RFK Jr. that, wow, the school food that we're giving kids is setting them up with habits that they're going to carry forward in life, where they're going to want Cheez-Its and pizzas and burgers all day long.
2010 年，米歇尔·奥巴马 (Michelle Obama) 的想法可能很像小罗伯特·肯尼迪 (RFK Jr.) 那样，哇，我们为孩子们提供的学校食品正在培养他们在生活中养成的习惯，让他们整天都想吃奶酪、披萨和汉堡。
We really have to do something there.
我们确实必须在那里做点什么。
And in 2010, they passed the Healthy Hunger-Free Kid Act, which was to improve school food, and they gave schools four years to prepare for it.
2010年，他们通过了《健康无饥饿儿童法案》，旨在改善学校食品，并给学校四年的时间准备。
So 2014, it was required.
所以2014年，这是必需的。
By 2015 and '16, all kinds of people were complaining that the kids were throwing the food away.
到了 2015 年和 16 年，各种各样的人都在抱怨孩子们把食物扔掉。
It wasn't working.
它不起作用。
We're going to have to go back to pizza and Cheez-Its and Whizzos and crappy food because we don't want the kids throwing the food away.
我们将不得不回到披萨、Cheez-Its、Whizzos 和蹩脚食物，因为我们不想让孩子们扔掉食物。
There were a couple people who put chefs in schools and said, "Okay, you can't just say eat better." If they were eating this way for the last however many years they were in school, and you just took the pizza away and put in the hummus, they're not going to try that.
有几个人把厨师放在学校里，并说：“好吧，你不能只是说吃得更好。”如果他们过去一直这样吃，无论他们在学校呆了多少年，而你只是把披萨拿走并放入鹰嘴豆泥，他们就不会尝试这样做。
But what if you brought a chef in that worked with not just the kids, but the teachers, the administrators, who are thinking about attendance and kids who go to detention, and test scores and things like that.
但是，如果你请一位厨师进来，不仅要与孩子们一起工作，还要与老师、管理人员一起工作，他们会考虑出勤率、被拘留的孩子、考试成绩等问题。
The teachers are complaining the kids are either hungry or they're not paying attention in class.
老师们抱怨孩子们要么饿了，要么上课不专心。
Food, many times, if you pay more attention to it, can have an impact on all those things, many of which you were just talking about a minute ago.
很多时候，如果你多加注意，食物会对所有这些事情产生影响，其中许多你刚才刚刚谈到。
And school food is a great place to do that.
学校的食物就是一个很好的选择。
And to put a chef in a rural school district in different places is amazing.
将一名厨师放在不同地方的乡村学区真是太棒了。
I now work with another amazing partner named Nora Latour, who has a nonprofit called Eat Real.
我现在与另一位名叫诺拉·拉图尔 (Nora Latour) 的出色合作伙伴合作，她拥有一家名为“Eat Real”的非营利组织。
And Eat Real goes in and certifies K to 12 schools and school districts for meeting 10 different parameters, some of which are nutritious, but some of which have to do with sourcing locally and sustainably and things like this.
Eat Real 介入并向 12 所学校和学区认证 K 满足 10 个不同的参数，其中一些是有营养的，但其中一些与本地采购和可持续发展等有关。
And I was just on a Zoom call with her with a pitch yesterday for some funding to do some more work.
昨天我刚刚与她进行 Zoom 通话，寻求一些资金来做更多的工作。
She's already serving a million kids in school with this new thing, and she's getting demands from school districts, "Can you please come look at our school, certify it?" Schools are buying new equipment.
她已经用这个新东西为学校里的一百万个孩子提供服务，并且她收到了学区的要求，“你能来我们学校看看，证明一下吗？”学校正在购买新设备。
They're redesigning some menus.
他们正在重新设计一些菜单。
They're talking to the staff, and they have happier staff.
他们正在与员工交谈，他们的员工也更快乐。
They're talking to the kids.
他们正在和孩子们说话。
The kids like the food.
孩子们喜欢这里的食物。
If you put some effort into this, you can make it taste good and be healthier and be affordable in rural, in red states, blue states.
如果你在这方面付出一些努力，你可以让它味道好，更健康，而且在农村、红州、蓝州价格实惠。
This can happen anywhere.
这可能发生在任何地方。
It's certainly not just went to Stanford and got good-tasting food.
这当然不仅仅是去斯坦福大学吃到美味的食物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I like this idea about chefs in schools.
我喜欢关于学校厨师的想法。
I never thought about that.
我从来没有想过这个。
Mostly because it seems reasonable to have one or two per several hundred students because the issue is always scalability.
主要是因为每几百名学生配备一到两名学生似乎是合理的，因为问题始终是可扩展性。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love the small farm thing.
我喜欢小农场的事情。
But there's only so many Napa counties, and there's only so many...
但纳帕县只有这么多，而且只有这么多......
Montana's got beautiful areas for cattle to graze and things like that, but we just don't have the land, as you pointed out.
蒙大拿州有美丽的地方可供牛群放牧等，但正如您所指出的，我们只是没有土地。
And it's hard to do things properly at scale.
而且大规模地做正确的事情是很困难的。
That's, I think, the fundamental issue here, but this sounds like it's scalable.
我认为这是这里的根本问题，但这听起来像是可以扩展的。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
And I would push back on small farms to middle-sized farms.
我会把小型农场推回到中型农场。
So really what we've got is gigantic mega farms.
所以我们真正拥有的是巨大的大型农场。
And this isn't my area, so I'm speaking completely out of my wheelhouse right now.
这不是我的职责范围，所以我现在说的完全是我的言论。
But if you look at the amount of corn and soy or potatoes, or the way things are grown, they're really inexpensive because they're so huge.
但如果你看看玉米、大豆或土豆的数量，或者它们的种植方式，就会发现它们真的很便宜，因为它们太大了。
If you look at dairy in the US, dairy farms in number have been going down and down.
如果你看看美国的乳制品行业，就会发现奶牛场的数量一直在下降。
And the mega dairy farms are huge.
大型奶牛场规模巨大。
So we have suicides in the dairy farmer community because of losing their family business.
因此，奶农群体中出现了因失去家族企业而自杀的情况。
I'm sure you've heard this.
我相信你已经听说过这个。
This isn't any mystery, but a lot of farming families are having a hard time getting their kids to take over.
这不是什么神秘的事，但许多农民家庭很难让他们的孩子接管家庭。
We have a lot of really old farmers in the US.
我们美国有很多真正的老农民。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I didn't know this.
我不知道这个。
I mean, it makes sense now that I hear it.
我的意思是，现在我听到它是有道理的。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So we've got a brain drain because of sort of the get big or big out.
因此，由于某种程度的变大或变大，我们出现了人才流失。
We used to have diverse agroecology going on farms, and they would have some livestock, and they would have some produce, and if there was any blight that happened, it didn't wipe out the farm because they had other crops or other livestock to back that up.
我们过去在农场里有多种农业生态，他们会有一些牲畜，他们会有一些农产品，如果发生任何枯萎病，它不会消灭农场，因为他们有其他作物或其他牲畜来支持。
And At one point, there's a guy named Earl Butz who said, "Ah, the military, the men are too weak to be in the military.
有一次，一个名叫厄尔·巴茨的人说：“啊，军队，男人太弱了，不能参军。
We're not getting enough calories." This goes back like more than 50 years.
我们没有获得足够的卡路里。”这可以追溯到 50 多年前。
Plant corn or soy fence row to fence row, buy more land, buy the huge combine machinery to plant this.
栅栏一排一排地种植玉米或大豆，购买更多的土地，购买巨大的联合收割机来种植它。
Don't be so diverse.
别那么多元化。
And I know of one particular person at Stanford whose family had a farm, and the dad said, "I don't even want you to take over the farm.
我认识斯坦福大学的一个人，他的家人有一个农场，他的父亲说：“我什至不希望你接管农场。
I've ruined the land.
我毁了这片土地。
The biodiverse thing was great, but this monocropping thing has ruined it.
生物多样性是伟大的，但单一作物却毁了它。
Please go get another job." And so what my sense was is small farms aren't enough to make a decent living, and farmers should make a decent living.
请你去找另一份工作吧。”所以我的感觉是小农场不足以过上体面的生活，农民应该过上体面的生活。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
The farmers and ranchers and fishers should make a decent living.
农民、牧场主和渔民应该过上体面的生活。
So again, out of my wheelhouse, but you mentioned small farms.
再说一次，在我的驾驶室之外，但你提到了小农场。
I think the problem is mega farms.
我认为问题在于大型农场。
And I think there's something in the middle where you could make a respectable living, but it would have to be a more diverse agricultural system than just corn or just soy or just a concentrated animal feeding operation.
我认为中间有一些东西可以让你过上体面的生活，但它必须是一个更加多样化的农业系统，而不仅仅是玉米或大豆或只是集中的动物饲养业务。
It had to be multiple crops, multiple livestock working together.
它必须是多种作物、多种牲畜一起耕作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, no, these are new concepts to me in the sense that I've not heard before what the sort of tractable model is.
是的，不，这些对我来说是新概念，因为我之前没有听说过什么是易于处理的模型。
But certainly, these issues have been on my mind for a long time as it's become clear that mega farms and factory meat...
但当然，这些问题已经困扰我很长时间了，因为很明显大型农场和工厂肉类......
I don't think anyone in the world would say that factory-farmed meat, like these cattle houses, are good.
我认为世界上没有人会说像这些牛舍这样的工厂化养殖的肉是好的。
I don't think anyone would, except maybe even the people who own them.
我认为没有人会这样做，除了拥有它们的人。
It just seems that what to do instead becomes excessively challenging.
看起来该怎么做反而变得过于具有挑战性。
So I'm really grateful to hear about this chefs program.
所以我真的很感激听到这个厨师计划。
I'm hoping that folks in the new administration will pay attention to this.
我希望新政府的人们能够关注这一点。
They claim to be very interested in these sorts of issues, and they wield a lot of power to be able to make this kind of change possible.
他们声称对这类问题非常感兴趣，并且拥有很大的权力来使这种改变成为可能。
So were they to ask you to advise or help, would you be willing to do that?
那么如果他们向你寻求建议或帮助，你愿意这样做吗？
Things have become so partisan now.
现在事情变得如此党派之争。
I'm just curious, are you willing to work with the new administration if they said, "Hey, listen, Gardner, we need your input"?
我只是好奇，如果新政府说“嘿，听着，加德纳，我们需要你的意见”，你愿意与他们合作吗？
Would you, yeah?
你愿意吗？
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Absolutely, and it wouldn't just be mine.
绝对是的，而且它不只是我的。
I'm having a blast at Stanford right now just because this new School of Sustainability is interested in this, very much thinking of the farmers and the ranchers and the fishers.
我现在在斯坦福大学很开心，因为这所新的可持续发展学院对此很感兴趣，非常关心农民、牧场主和渔民。
The School of Sustainability sort of grew out of the Earth Science school, and so a lot of those people have been working with land and water and air, and they're always looking for that win-win across all sectors.
可持续发展学院是从地球科学学院发展而来的，所以很多人一直在与土地、水和空气相关的领域工作，他们总是在各个领域寻求双赢。
So that's one of them.
这就是其中之一。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's talk about protein.
我们来谈谈蛋白质。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Oh, okay.
哦，好吧。
Do we have six more hours or just four?
我们还有六个小时还是只有四个小时？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, but we're going to make it simple.
不，但我们会让事情变得简单。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Okay.
好的。
I'll try.
我会尽力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'll just start off by saying that I, and I would say essentially every guest that's touched on nutrition, Peter Attia, Dr. Gabrielle Lyon-
我首先要说的是，我，基本上每一位涉及营养的嘉宾，彼得·阿蒂亚（Peter Attia），加布里埃尔·里昂博士（Dr. Gabrielle Lyon）——
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Stacy Sims
史黛西·西姆斯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
Stacy Sims, Layne Norton who is degreed in biochemistry and nutrition.
史黛西·西姆斯 (Stacy Sims)，莱恩·诺顿 (Layne Norton)，拥有生物化学和营养学学位。
So he probably, of those people, has had the most formal training in nutrition and biochemistry, and several others have made what I consider a reasonable argument for, and try not to gasp here, Christopher-
所以，在这些人中，他可能接受过最正式的营养和生物化学培训，其他几个人也提出了我认为合理的论点，尽量不要在这里喘气，克里斯托弗——
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
one gram of quality protein.
一克优质蛋白质。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So high bioavailability, high protein to calorie ratio.
因此生物利用度高，蛋白质与热量的比率高。
One gram of that per lean pound of body weight.
每瘦一磅体重一克。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Not kilogram, per pound.
不是公斤，是每磅。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Per pound.
每磅。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Oh, and of lean body weight.
哦，还有瘦体重。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, of lean body weight.
是的，瘦体重。
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon is very precise about this.
加布里埃尔·里昂博士对此说得非常精确。
Sometimes her words get twisted-
有时她的话会被扭曲——
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Interesting.
有趣。
Ah
啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
when the media, the mainstream media, which is now no longer mainstream, talks about it, but they've contorted her words a little bit.
当媒体，现在已经不再是主流的主流媒体谈论这件事的时候，他们却稍微歪曲了她的话。
It's per pound of lean or desired body weight.
它是每磅瘦体重或所需体重。
Because that adjusts for body fat percentage, right?
因为这会根据身体脂肪百分比进行调整，对吗？
If you're carrying-
如果你携带——
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a lot of muscle-
很多肌肉——
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's very different than if you're carrying less muscle under a lot of fat.
这与在大量脂肪下携带较少肌肉的情况有很大不同。
So even so, those numbers are pretty high compared to the numbers that you've written about, and it's not per kilogram, it's per pound.
因此，即便如此，与您所写的数字相比，这些数字还是相当高的，而且不是每公斤，而是每磅。
Right?
正确的？
So I-
所以我-
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
weigh 210 pounds.
重210磅。
I loosely aim for somewhere between 175 and 215 grams of quality protein per day.
我的目标是每天摄入 175 至 215 克优质蛋白质。
So what are your thoughts about those recommendations?
那么您对这些建议有何看法？
And then we'll kind of go back and forth and hopefully come to some sort of conclusion that people can make their own decision about.
然后我们会反复讨论，希望能得出某种结论，让人们可以做出自己的决定。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yep.
是的。
Okay, so a super important fact, just to dive in right off the bat, is how much protein do you store if you ate in excess today for tomorrow?
好吧，那么一个非常重要的事实是，如果你今天吃得过多，明天你会储存多少蛋白质？
If you were just hedging your bets, how much of that 175 grams of protein do you think you applied to muscle?
如果您只是两面下注，您认为这 175 克蛋白质中有多少用于肌肉？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very little.
很少。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
You're not gaining muscle right now.
你现在还没有增加肌肉。
I'm going to guess.
我来猜猜。
You're stable weight, stable muscle?
你的体重稳定，肌肉稳定吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Pretty much.
差不多了。
Maybe a little muscle here and there.
也许到处都有一点肌肉。
But yeah, stable weight, stable muscle.
但是，是的，稳定的体重，稳定的肌肉。
So I would say very little is going to go into...
所以我想说很少会涉及......
There's sort of maintenance levels of protein synthesis.
蛋白质合成有某种维持水平。
Anything that I stimulated by exercise, still very little.
我通过锻炼所激发的任何东西，仍然很少。
I'm perfectly fine with the idea that much of that protein intake is used as energy.
我完全同意摄入的大部分蛋白质都被用作能量的想法。
In fact, I'm delighted with it because the conversion of that protein to energy is metabolically costly in a way that conversion of other caloric forms is less costly.
事实上，我对此感到很高兴，因为将蛋白质转化为能量的代谢成本很高，而其他热量形式的转化成本较低。
And I'm also happy with it because it tastes good.
我也很高兴，因为它味道很好。
The meat I eat is very dense.
我吃的肉很稠。
Meat, eggs, et cetera, that I eat is very dense in other nutrients, like healthy fats, especially for fish or for things of that sort.
我吃的肉、鸡蛋等富含其他营养成分，例如健康脂肪，尤其是鱼或类似的东西。
And I have to eat something.
我必须吃点东西。
I have a caloric need.
我有热量需求。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And if I eat too many starches, I get sleepy, I feel lousy, I don't tolerate dairy.
如果我吃太多淀粉类食物，我会感到困倦，感觉很糟糕，我不能忍受乳制品。
I love fruits and vegetables, but if I eat too many fruits and vegetables, I feel lousy because my gut can only take so much fiber.
我喜欢水果和蔬菜，但如果我吃太多水果和蔬菜，我会感觉很糟糕，因为我的肠道只能吸收这么多纤维。
So that's what's worked for me because it basically establishes all the things that I'm looking for, right?
这就是对我有用的东西，因为它基本上确定了我正在寻找的所有东西，对吗？
I want enough fiber, but not so much that I'm bloated or gassy or not feeling well-
我想要足够的纤维，但不要太多以至于让我感到浮肿、胀气或感觉不舒服-
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or I have to run to the restroom all the time.
或者我必须一直跑去洗手间。
I want enough protein for protein synthesis and to cover any exercise-induced needs, but I also like the way it tastes.
我想要足够的蛋白质来合成蛋白质并满足任何运动引起的需求，但我也喜欢它的味道。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I like what it brings with it, and I source it from quality sources.
我喜欢它带来的东西，并且我从优质来源采购它。
So it's hard for me to punch a hole in that argument, and I like rice as much as the next person, but if I eat two big bowls of rice, I feel like garbage.
所以我很难在这个论点上打出一个洞来，而且我和旁边的人一样喜欢吃米饭，但是如果我吃了两大碗米饭，我就觉得自己很垃圾。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If I eat one bowl of rice with a nice little piece of grass-fed meat and a big salad and some vegetables and some berries for dessert-
如果我吃一碗米饭、一小块草饲肉、一份大沙拉、一些蔬菜和一些浆果作为甜点——
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I feel like a king.
我感觉自己像个国王。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So-
所以——
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
That's pretty good.
那很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Where am I going wrong with one gram?
一克我哪里错了？
Because the recommendations that I've seen in your papers and others are much, much lower.
因为我在你的论文和其他论文中看到的建议要低得多。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
So I'm not sure if they've been my recommendations.
所以我不确定它们是否是我的推荐。
Part of it is just sort of pointing out protein 101.
其中一部分只是指出蛋白质 101。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
There's some myths here-
这里有一些神话——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great
太棒了
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
...
...
that are pretty ridiculous.
这太荒谬了。
Okay.
好的。
So if we were to start at the beginning, and if I go too far down the rabbit hole, feel free to stop me.
所以，如果我们从头开始，如果我在兔子洞里走得太远，请随时阻止我。
I got my PhD at Berkeley.
我在伯克利获得了博士学位。
Part of the dietary recommendations for protein were established by Doris Calloway and Shelley Morgan at Berkeley.
部分蛋白质饮食建议是由伯克利分校的多丽丝·卡洛韦和雪莱·摩根制定的。
In Morgan Hall, the fifth floor is called the penthouse, and in the days of the Vietnam War, conscientious war objectors were allowed out of the war if they would be study participants and go up in the penthouse where they put on blue Zoot suits every single day.
在摩根大厅，五楼被称为顶层公寓，在越南战争时期，出于良心拒战者如果愿意成为研究参与者并每天穿上蓝色祖特套装进入顶层公寓，就可以退出战争。
And there was a kitchen facility up there, and there were beds, and they were not allowed to leave for months at a time to do this study.
那里有厨房设施，也有床位，他们连续几个月不被允许离开去进行这项研究。
And they did what are called nitrogen balance studies, which today the protein community despises and says this is a horrific way to determine protein needs.
他们进行了所谓的氮平衡研究，如今蛋白质界对此表示鄙视，并表示这是一种确定蛋白质需求的可怕方法。
But in the day, it was super clever.
但在白天，它非常聪明。
So picture that you're 50, 60, 70 years ago, however long ago it was now.
想象一下你已经是 50、60、70 年前了，无论现在是多久以前。
Protein is the main source of nitrogen in your body.
蛋白质是体内氮的主要来源。
If you were to do one of these bomb calorimeter things that blew up and burned your whole body, minerals would be left.
如果你要做这些炸弹热量计的事情之一，它会爆炸并烧毁你的整个身体，矿物质就会留下。
You can't get rid of minerals.
你无法摆脱矿物质。
And nitrogen is in that list.
氮也在该列表中。
And so you can actually do a nitrogen analysis of food that you're eating, and it'll tell you how much protein is in the food.
因此，您实际上可以对正在吃的食物进行氮分析，它会告诉您食物中含有多少蛋白质。
And if you were to be in a blue Zoot suit all day and collect your poop, your pee, your nasal blowings, the hairs that came off, the skin sloughing, the fingernails, if you captured everything that left your body, you would know how much protein you had eliminated during the day.
如果你整天穿着蓝色的祖特服，收集你的粪便、你的小便、你的鼻腔擤出的声音、脱落的毛发、脱落的皮肤、指甲，如果你收集了离开你身体的所有东西，你就会知道你在白天排出了多少蛋白质。
So somebody came up with this idea for a nitrogen balance study, and they took these conscientious war objectors and put them in these suits for months, and they lowered their protein to zero, at which point they realized, wow, this is fascinating.
因此，有人提出了氮平衡研究的想法，他们让这些出于良心的战争反对者穿上这些衣服几个月，他们将蛋白质降低到零，此时他们意识到，哇，这太神奇了。
The losses that you have from protein decrease as you lower your protein to zero because your body realizes you need to be more efficient with what you had.
当您将蛋白质降低到零时，蛋白质造成的损失就会减少，因为您的身体意识到您需要更有效地利用您所拥有的蛋白质。
And then they raised the dietary protein level back up until they were in balance.
然后他们提高膳食蛋白质水平，直到达到平衡。
So the amount of protein leaving the body was the same as the amount going in.
因此，离开身体的蛋白质数量与进入身体的蛋白质数量相同。
And they said, "This is the protein requirement."
他们说，“这就是蛋白质的需求。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
It's the amount that will replace your losses in this group of people.
就是弥补你在这群人中损失的金额。
And it wasn't just Morgan Hall and the penthouse at Berkeley.
不仅仅是摩根大厅和伯克利的顶层公寓。
It was multiple other groups who were doing this in other places, and they pooled all their data and said this is...
有多个其他团体在其他地方这样做，他们汇集了所有数据并表示这是......
And there's a range, and some people need more, and some people need less.
而且有一个范围，有些人需要更多，有些人需要更少。
And let's pretend it's a normal distribution.
让我们假设它是正态分布。
It isn't quite.
不完全是这样。
But after all this, they came up with what would be an estimated average requirement for this population that we've studied in this bizarre prison incarceration, food manipulation thing with this clever idea focusing on nitrogen just because it's so unique to protein.
但毕竟，他们想出了我们在这个奇怪的监狱监禁中研究的这个人群的估计平均需求量，食物操纵的事情，这个聪明的想法集中在氮上，因为它是蛋白质的独特之处。
And they came up with 0.66 grams of protein per kilogram body weight per day.
他们得出每天每公斤体重 0.66 克蛋白质。
Not the-
不是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Daily?
日常？
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And this is the estimated average requirement.
这是估计的平均要求。
Okay, now let's do some super simple math.
好吧，现在让我们做一些超级简单的数学计算。
Let's say if you told the American public, now that we've done this bizarre, disgusting task, this is how much everybody requires, this estimated average requirement, and therein after, everybody got exactly that much protein.
假设你告诉美国公众，现在我们已经完成了这项奇怪、令人厌恶的任务，这就是每个人需要的量，这个估计的平均需求量，在此之后，每个人都得到了那么多的蛋白质。
What proportion of the population would be deficient at that level if they picked the average requirement?
如果他们选择平均要求，那么在该水平上，有多少比例的人口会出现短缺？
Half.
一半。
By definition, that's only the average.
根据定义，这只是平均值。
Half of the people are above average.
一半的人都高于平均水平。
So the recommended daily allowance of protein is set at two standard deviations above the value determined by this disgusting nitrogen balance test decades and decades ago.
因此，建议的每日蛋白质摄入量设置为比几十年前这项令人厌恶的氮平衡测试确定的值高出两个标准差。
And I understand that the community of protein fanatics doesn't like that.
我知道蛋白质狂热分子不喜欢这样。
That's not an optimal protein.
这不是最佳蛋白质。
It's like a minimal protein requirement.
这就像最低限度的蛋白质需求。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Okay?
好吧？
So I totally buy that argument, but I think the first thing that people get wrong is they think that that old method is recommending the average requirement.
所以我完全相信这个论点，但我认为人们首先犯错的是他们认为旧方法推荐的是平均要求。
And it's not.
但事实并非如此。
It's got a safety buffer.
它有一个安全缓冲器。
It's got two standard deviations built on top of it so that if everybody got that 0.8 grams per kilogram body weight per day, 2.5% of the population would be deficient, and not only would 97.5% of the population meet their requirement, they would exceed it.
它有两个标准偏差，因此，如果每个人每天每公斤体重摄入 0.8 克，则 2.5% 的人口将缺乏，而 97.5% 的人口不仅会满足他们的要求，而且会超过它。
If you drew the graph, right?
如果你画了图表，对吗？
You're seeing the line?
你看到那条线了吗？
This whole group would exceed it, and this group would not meet it, and this group would get just this small sliver would get what they needed.
整个小组将超过它，而这个小组将无法满足它，而这个小组将只得到这一小块钱，就可以得到他们所需要的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for that clarification.
谢谢你的澄清。
I have a couple of questions I know are popping up for people.
我知道人们会提出几个问题。
I just would like to tick off if we can.
如果可以的话我只是想勾选一下。
Who were these subjects?
这些对象是谁？
Was it men and women?
是男人还是女人？
These were conscientious objectors, so I would presume at that time we weren't sending women to Vietnam, so it would be just men.
这些都是出于良心拒服兵役的人，所以我想当时我们不会派女性去越南，所以只会是男性。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Ah, good point.
啊，好点。
So this is just at Berkeley So other people were doing this too.
所以这只是在伯克利 所以其他人也在这样做。
It wasn't just this one group.
不仅仅是这一组。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
And I don't know who the others were.
而且我不知道其他人是谁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
I just remember that I got my PhD at Berkeley, and it's like as soon as I got there, people said, "Do you want to see the penthouse?" I said, "What the F is the penthouse?" "Ah, the penthouse is where Doris Calloway and Shelley Morgan figured this out, and this is a famous thing." So they took great pride-
我只记得我在伯克利获得了博士学位，就像我一到那里，人们就说，“你想看看顶层公寓吗？”我说：“顶层公寓到底是什么？” “啊，顶层公寓是多丽丝·卡洛韦和雪莉·摩根想出来的，这是一件著名的事情。”所以他们感到非常自豪——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
...
...
that part of that came from their work at Berkeley.
其中一部分来自他们在伯克利的工作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they had to call it the penthouse to get people up there because what happened in there sounds anything but pleasant.
他们不得不称其为顶层公寓，以便让人们上去那里，因为那里发生的事情听起来一点也不令人愉快。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It was unpleasant.
这很不愉快。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
At least for the Berkeley study.
至少对于伯克利的研究来说是这样。
These guys are up there, or guys and gals are up there.
这些家伙在那里，或者男人和女孩在那里。
They're in these suits.
他们穿着这些西装。
They're collecting everything.
他们正在收集一切。
They're not exercising.
他们没有锻炼。
They're not breathing fresh air, presumably.
他们大概呼吸不到新鲜空气。
Are they walking around?
他们在四处走动吗？
Are they getting even a couple thousand steps a day?
他们每天走几千步吗？
My concern is that-
我担心的是——
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Oh, absolutely.
哦，绝对是。
Yeah.
是的。
They're concerns
他们的担忧
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
my concern is that they turn them into mice, essentially.
我担心的是他们本质上把它们变成了老鼠。
Listen, I've published work on mice, rats, I no longer do this, but non-human primates, something that I have no interest in doing anymore, and the other primates, us humans, and I know how hard it is to do a well-controlled study.
听着，我已经发表了关于小鼠、大鼠的研究，我不再这样做，但是非人类灵长类动物，我不再有兴趣做这些事情，还有其他灵长类动物，我们人类，我知道进行良好对照的研究有多么困难。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's extremely difficult.
这是非常困难的。
So I understand why they did this, but then it becomes a very artificial circumstance.
所以我理解他们为什么这样做，但随后它就变成了一种非常人为的情况。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now the buffering with two standard deviations above this nitrogen balance amount, I think that's something really important to double-click on for people, because most people hear, oh, it was just a minimum amount required to maintain nitrogen balance.
现在，缓冲比这个氮平衡量高出两个标准差，我认为这对人们来说双击非常重要，因为大多数人听到，哦，这只是维持氮平衡所需的最低量。
But in reality, it's much higher than that.
但实际上，它远高于此。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So that was the first one.
这是第一个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
I feel like that's a misperception-
我感觉这是一个误会——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
...
...
that that was the average requirement.
这就是平均要求。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
All the points you made are dead-on critical, important.
你提出的所有观点都非常关键、重要。
Okay.
好的。
Then the second one is where do you store it if you've eaten in excess?
那么第二个就是如果你吃多了你把它存放在哪里？
Because the fact is, right after that, I had a debate with Stu Phillips at one point on Simon Hill's podcast because we had exchanged some Twitter things and said, "Oh my God, they disagree.
因为事实是，在那之后，我曾在西蒙·希尔的播客上与斯图·菲利普斯进行了一场辩论，因为我们在推特上交换了一些东西，并说：“天哪，他们不同意。
They should have a debate."
他们应该进行一场辩论。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is Stu Phillips a carnivore guy?
斯图·菲利普斯是肉食动物吗？
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
No, Stu Phillips, I'm sorry, is an exercise-- He's super great at exercise studies at McMaster University.
不，斯图·菲利普斯，我很抱歉，是一种练习——他在麦克马斯特大学的运动研究方面非常出色。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
And after we actually emailed one another, not just tweeting however many characters you get on Twitter, said, "Oh my God, we actually agree on most things." And the reason we agreed is we have national data on what the protein intake is of Americans.
当我们真正互相发送电子邮件后，不仅仅是发推文，无论推特上有多少字符，我们都会说：“天哪，我们实际上在大多数事情上都达成了一致。”我们同意的原因是我们有关于美国人蛋白质摄入量的全国数据。
So forget the protein bars and the protein powders and everything else.
所以忘记蛋白棒、蛋白粉和其他一切吧。
The average American doesn't do that, and the average intake is like 1.2 grams per kilogram body weight per day or higher.
一般美国人不会这样做，平均每天摄入量为每公斤体重 1.2 克或更高。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Of quality protein?
优质蛋白质？
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Just food.
只是食物。
So let's stop here.
那么我们就到此为止吧。
Just food.
只是食物。
So the fun thing was is Stu and I got together, I said, "Stu, you hate that .8 grams per kilogram body weight, and you're saying people should have one gram per kilogram body weight, or maybe even 1.2." 1.2 would be 50% higher than .8.
所以有趣的是 Stu 和我聚在一起，我说，“Stu，你讨厌每公斤体重 0.8 克，而你说人们应该每公斤体重 1 克，甚至 1.2 克。” 1.2 比 0.8 高 50%。
That's the average American intake.
这是美国人的平均摄入量。
And he said, "Well, that's true, too." So he hates the .8, but he realizes it's almost an irrelevant number-
他说：“嗯，这也是真的。”所以他讨厌 0.8，但他意识到这几乎是一个无关紧要的数字 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
...
...
because most people get more than that.
因为大多数人得到的不止于此。
I just served on the Dietary Guidelines Advisory Committee, and we looked at those same data, and it's still true.
我刚刚在膳食指南咨询委员会任职，我们查看了相同的数据，这仍然是正确的。
Americans eat more protein than the RDA on a general basis.
一般来说，美国人摄入的蛋白质多于每日推荐摄入量。
Without trying, without knowing about it.
没有尝试，没有意识到。
It's just in more foods than you think.
它只是存在于比你想象的更多的食物中。
So the second issue is, well, if so many people are eating more, is there anything bad about the extra?
所以第二个问题是，如果这么多人吃得更多，额外吃有什么坏处吗？
What do you do with the extra?
你用多余的钱做什么？
And so there's sort of infinite capacity to store fat in your body, you probably know this, in your belly and your butt and your underarms, everywhere.
所以你的身体里有无限的储存脂肪的能力，你可能知道这一点，在你的腹部、臀部和腋下，到处都是。
There's limited capacity for carbohydrate store.
碳水化合物的储存能力有限。
I actually heard Gabrielle Lyon talk about how much is in your liver and how much is in your skeletal muscle.
事实上，我听加布里埃尔·里昂谈论过你的肝脏有多少，骨骼肌有多少。
But if you are a marathon runner, in four hours after 20 miles or so, you bonk because you've exhausted all your carb stores.
但如果你是一名马拉松运动员，在跑完 20 英里左右的四个小时内，你就会崩溃，因为你已经耗尽了所有的碳水化合物储备。
You can exhaust all your carb stores in four hours, where it would take days and days and days with fat.
你可以在四个小时内耗尽你所有的碳水化合物储存，而如果是脂肪则需要几天又几天的时间。
But there is no storage depot for protein.
但没有蛋白质的储存库。
At the end of the day, if you ate more than you needed, you're not storing any for the next day.
一天结束时，如果你吃的比你需要的多，你就不会为第二天储存任何东西。
It's not in your big toe.
它不在你的大脚趾里。
It's not in your spleen.
它不在你的脾脏里。
It's not in your liver.
它不在你的肝脏中。
It's nowhere after you made all the enzymes, hormones, hair, fingernails, and muscle tissue that you wanted, you break off the nitrogen, you have to eliminate that as ammonia in your kidney, and you turn the carbon skeleton into carbs, which if we do get back to the keto diet, is throwing the meat eaters on the keto diet out of ketosis because you just turned the protein you were eating to avoid the carbs into the carbs that you were avoiding.
当你制造出你想要的所有酶、激素、头发、指甲和肌肉组织后，你就没有了，你分解了氮，你必须将其作为肾脏中的氨消除，然后你将碳骨架转化为碳水化合物，如果我们真的回到酮饮食，这会让肉食者摆脱酮症，因为你刚刚把你为了避免碳水化合物而吃的蛋白质变成了你想要避免的碳水化合物。
But we won't go there.
但我们不会去那里。
For the moment, we'll just say there's no place to store it, so you're not really getting any benefit about it.
目前，我们只是说没有地方可以存储它，所以你并没有真正获得任何好处。
I was very interested to hear you just say you're fine eating the protein for the calories, the energy.
我很高兴听到你说你可以吃蛋白质来获取热量和能量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, because I need a certain amount of calories.
嗯，因为我需要一定量的卡路里。
And I'm not just playing devil's advocate here.
我不只是在这里唱反调。
I feel, first of all, lucky that at a very young age, I started paying attention to what I ate.
首先，我感到幸运的是，我在很小的时候就开始注意自己的饮食。
Not in a neurotic way, I just did that.
不是以神经质的方式，我只是这么做了。
And I will say that when you have a certain amount of caloric need, everyone does, you ask where's it going to come from?
我想说的是，当你有一定量的热量需求时，每个人都会有，你会问它从哪里来？
And you eat enough vegetables, great, but it's hard to get your ration of calories.
而且你吃足够的蔬菜，很好，但很难获得你的卡路里配给。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
It is, yeah.
是的，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fruits, quality protein, so I'm referring to that as let's just put the taste good to you, so beef, fish, chicken, eggs, and I guess for the vegetarian, some combination of beans and rice, that type of thing-
水果、优质蛋白质，所以我指的是让我们把味道好给你，所以牛肉、鱼、鸡肉、鸡蛋，我想对于素食者来说，豆类和大米的一些组合，诸如此类的东西——
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
We're going to go there next
我们接下来要去那里
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
where you get enough leucine, this sort of thing.
在那里你可以获得足够的亮氨酸，诸如此类的东西。
But the key thing I believe is that one, I'll just speak from my own experience, I can eat those and feel satiated.
但我相信最关键的一点是，我只是根据自己的经验来说，我可以吃这些并且感到满足。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Uh-huh
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Most starches on their own don't taste good-
大多数淀粉本身味道并不好——
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Fair
公平
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
enough.
够了。
I like oatmeal-
我喜欢燕麦片-
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with some salt and some cinnamon, but most starches don't taste good on their own unless you add lipids, you add fats.
加一些盐和一些肉桂，但大多数淀粉本身味道不好，除非你添加脂质，你添加脂肪。
And so I would argue that most people are struggling with too much body fat because they overeat starches combined with fats.
因此，我认为大多数人都在与过多的身体脂肪作斗争，因为他们摄入了过多的淀粉和脂肪。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not because they overeat steak or they're overeating-
不是因为他们吃太多牛排或者他们吃得太多——
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Ah
啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's not the hamburger, it's the hamburger bun that includes sugar, the cheese, and we don't even need to talk about sugary soda.
这不是汉堡包，而是包含糖和奶酪的汉堡面包，我们甚至不需要谈论含糖苏打水。
It's just kind of a duh now.
现在这只是一种废话。
It's just-
这只是——
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
loaded with all sorts of things that aren't nutritious.
充满了各种没有营养的东西。
So I think that the key issue with this, you pointed to this idea, and I'm not trying to protect the protein crowd, but I think that one of the reasons that they are proponents of one gram per pound of body weight, roughly-
所以我认为这个问题的关键问题是，你指出了这个想法，我并不是想保护蛋白质人群，但我认为他们支持每磅体重一克的原因之一，大致是-
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or lean body weight, is that we need to eat something.
或者瘦体重，就是我们需要吃一些东西。
We ideally should eat something that tastes good, that provides some nutrition for us, and that is not something that requires a bunch of other things in order to make it palatable.
理想情况下，我们应该吃一些味道好的东西，为我们提供一些营养，而不是需要一堆其他东西才能使其美味。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I love fruit, but you can't just live on fruit.
我喜欢水果，但你不能只靠水果生活。
And I love vegetables in their raw form, but they taste better with some olive oil on them.
我喜欢生吃的蔬菜，但加点橄榄油味道更好。
It doesn't take much to make a vegetable taste really good-
蔬菜的味道并不需要太多——
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because I love vegetables.
因为我喜欢蔬菜。
Same for fruit, I'll eat them on their own all day.
水果也一样，我会自己吃一整天。
But the starches are a problem because of the quote unquote "requirements" and preferences they bring with them.
但淀粉是一个问题，因为它们带来了“要求”和偏好。
The problem isn't a loaf of sourdough bread, the problem is the immense amounts of butter and olive oil that get sopped up and brought down with it.
问题不在于一条酵母面包，问题在于大量的黄油和橄榄油被它吸收并带下来。
Most people, I would argue, are overweight not because they eat too much protein.
我认为，大多数人超重并不是因为摄入了太多蛋白质。
That's the point I'm trying to make.
这就是我想要表达的观点。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Okay, fair.
好吧，公平。
But okay, so weight is a little separate issue, and if you're getting that from meat, you're getting more saturated fat and not fiber.
但是好吧，体重是一个单独的问题，如果你从肉中获取体重，你会得到更多的饱和脂肪而不是纤维。
And we're destroying the planet with the amount of meat and the kind of meat-
我们正在用大量的肉和肉的种类毁灭地球——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
...
...
that we're getting right now.
我们现在就得到了。
But parking lot for now.
但目前有停车场。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Unless it's sustainably sourced.
除非它是可持续来源的。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Which is such a small proportion of meat grown in the US.
这在美国种植的肉类中所占的比例很小。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It takes attention.
这需要注意。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Most people cannot access that right now.
大多数人现在无法访问它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Unfortunately.
不幸的是。
I completely agree with you there.
我完全同意你的观点。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
So that is a great comment and I would love it if we went there.
所以这是一个很好的评论，如果我们去那里我会很高兴。
Okay, but let me move on.
好吧，但让我继续。
So one was the two standard deviations.
所以其中之一就是两个标准差。
Two is there's no place to store it.
二是没有地方存放。
You're going to convert it to something else.
你要把它转换成其他东西。
And three is your quality thing.
三是你的品质。
So here's another myth that we need to bust.
所以这是我们需要打破的另一个神话。
So the myth part is that plants are missing amino acids, they're not complete.
所以神话部分是植物缺少氨基酸，它们是不完整的。
I'm sure everybody listening today has heard, "Quinoa, the only plant with all nine essential amino acids." Bullshit.
我相信今天听众中的每个人都听说过：“藜麦，唯一含有全部九种必需氨基酸的植物。”废话。
So I don't know if you can look at my paper in your podcast or show it, and I have it on my computer.
所以我不知道你是否可以在你的播客中看看我的论文或展示它，我的电脑上有它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We can provide links on the show note captions.
我们可以提供有关显示注释标题的链接。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
So we wrote a paper in 2019, and this actually was pretty fun for me.
所以我们在 2019 年写了一篇论文，这对我来说实际上很有趣。
It came from working with the chefs.
它来自与厨师的合作。
The chefs were working on that protein flip idea that I mentioned earlier, and they were a little worried.
厨师们正在研究我之前提到的蛋白质翻转想法，他们有点担心。
They said, "What is the thing about the plants missing the amino acids or being incomplete?" And so I knew a lot about this, but to make a slideshow for them that day, I did something I had never done before, and I got a whole bunch of foods, and I plotted out the amounts of every single amino acid in the food in the proportions they were in.
他们说：“植物缺少氨基酸或不完整是怎么回事？”所以我对此了解很多，但是那天为了给他们制作幻灯片，我做了一些我以前从未做过的事情，我得到了一大堆食物，我按照它们所占的比例绘制出了食物中每种氨基酸的含量。
If you looked at that .8 grams per kilogram body weight per day, and if you thought that exceeded the needs of some people, it's plausible that a lot of people, by that calculation, need 40 grams of protein a day.
如果您查看每天每公斤体重 0.8 克的蛋白质，并且您认为这超出了某些人的需求，那么按此计算，很多人每天需要 40 克蛋白质是合理的。
Which sounds, I'm sure, very little.
我敢肯定，这听起来很少。
And I'm only bringing that up because there's 20 amino acids, and I would assume the average person would think, "Well, if I needed 40 and there's 20 amino acids, I would need two grams of every amino acid." And that is totally not the way it works.
我之所以提出这一点，是因为有 20 种氨基酸，我想一般人会想，“好吧，如果我需要 40 种，而有 20 种氨基酸，那么每种氨基酸我需要两克。”这完全不是它的工作方式。
It actually works more like the board game of Scrabble.
它实际上更像是拼字游戏的棋盘游戏。
So when you're drawing, there's 100 Scrabble letters in the bag, and there's 26 letters in the alphabet, and it almost seems like there'd be four of each letter in the bag.
所以当你画画时，袋子里有 100 个拼字游戏字母，字母表中有 26 个字母，而且袋子里几乎每个字母都有 4 个。
But y'all know there's only one Z and one Y and one X.
但你们都知道只有一个 Z、一个 Y 和一个 X。
Or maybe there's two Y's.
或者也许有两个 Y。
But there's a crap ton of E's and N's and R's.
但有一大堆 E、N 和 R。
And your amino acids are just like that.
你的氨基酸就是这样。
So you need a crap ton of lysine and leucine, and you need very little methionine or cysteine.
所以你需要大量的赖氨酸和亮氨酸，而你需要很少的蛋氨酸或半胱氨酸。
So it was really fun in putting these graphics together.
因此，将这些图形组合在一起真的很有趣。
I said, "Here's eggs, here's beef, here's salmon, here's pork.
我说：“这是鸡蛋，这是牛肉，这是鲑鱼，这是猪肉。
Get ready, because I'm going to show you beans and rice and grains and fruit." And I'm focusing on proportion.
做好准备，因为我要向你们展示豆类、大米、谷物和水果。”我很注重比例。
I will say per calorie, meat has more protein than plants.
我想说的是，按卡路里计算，肉类比植物含有更多的蛋白质。
And just in terms of calories.
仅就卡路里而言。
But proportion-wise, one of the myths is the missing amino acids or the incomplete ones, because if you make a graphic out of this, you will see all plants have all goddamn 20 amino acids.
但就比例而言，误解之一是氨基酸缺失或氨基酸不完整，因为如果你用它制作一张图表，你会发现所有植物都含有该死的 20 种氨基酸。
They all have lysine.
它们都含有赖氨酸。
They all have methionine and cysteine.
它们都含有蛋氨酸和半胱氨酸。
And the idea that they're missing is wrong.
他们失踪的想法是错误的。
The idea that you have to complement your beans and grains is wrong, unless you're getting very little protein.
必须补充豆类和谷物的想法是错误的，除非你摄入的蛋白质很少。
At that point, it is important to complement them.
在这一点上，补充它们很重要。
But it's really not hard to get a lot of amino acids.
但获取大量氨基酸确实并不难。
You mentioned the quality of your protein.
您提到了蛋白质的质量。
If you're getting 175 grams of protein a day, quality doesn't matter a hoot.
如果您每天摄入 175 克蛋白质，那么质量根本就不重要。
You match your needs at 60 or 70 grams, and I think you're converting the rest to carbs.
您可以根据需要摄入 60 或 70 克，我认为您正在将其余的转化为碳水化合物。
So the myth-
所以神话——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sorry to interrupt you, but I'm going to do it intentionally.
很抱歉打扰你，但我是故意这么做的。
The idea is to get, when I say quality, is to get the protein that one seeks without overdoing caloric intake.
当我说质量时，我的想法是获得人们想要的蛋白质而不摄入过多的热量。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That gets tough with starches.
这对淀粉来说很困难。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very tough.
非常艰难。
A half a bowl of rice-
半碗米饭——
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is not very satiating, at least for me.
不是很令人满意，至少对我来说。
I'll take a quarter of a bowl of steak over two bowls of rice to survive on now and forever.
我会用四分之一碗牛排加两碗米饭来维持现在和永远。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah, and I wouldn't go with the grains.
是的，我不会选择谷物。
So the grains are only like 10% protein.
所以谷物只含有 10% 的蛋白质。
Beans are 20%.
豆类占20%。
Soybeans are like 40%.
大豆大约占40%。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
And actually, the amino acid profile of soy is better than any other bean.
事实上，大豆的氨基酸含量比任何其他豆类都要好。
So the Asians who were doing soy milk, tempeh, tofu for so long Pretty smart.
所以长期做豆浆、豆豉、豆腐的亚洲人相当聪明。
But actually, there's an interesting issue in the US compared to other countries in the world, is how few beans we eat, and beans are super versatile.
但实际上，与世界其他国家相比，美国有一个有趣的问题，那就是我们吃的豆子很少，而豆子却用途广泛。
So you've got red red in Ghana, and you've got hummus in the Mediterranean, and you've got tacos and burritos and things in Latin America.
加纳有红红，地中海有鹰嘴豆泥，拉丁美洲有炸玉米饼和墨西哥卷饼之类的东西。
Or let's say India, and you've got dals and lentils and things like that.
或者说印度，有木豆和扁豆之类的东西。
That whole legume family is the best source of quality protein for the plant eaters.
对于植物性食用者来说，整个豆科植物是优质蛋白质的最佳来源。
And so it's really a shame that the quality thing is like, oh, plant foods don't have quality protein.
因此，植物性食品不含优质蛋白质，这确实是一种耻辱。
They're missing amino acids.
他们缺少氨基酸。
So if I can add that to the pool, so the two standard deviations, no place to store it, and plants are better sources of protein than most people think.
因此，如果我可以将其添加到池中，那么两个标准差，没有地方存储它，并且植物是比大多数人想象的更好的蛋白质来源。
And so that's why there are vegan bodybuilders.
这就是为什么有纯素健美运动员。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
You can win a gold medal in a bodybuilding competition strictly on plant proteins because they're not missing.
严格依靠植物蛋白，你可以在健美比赛中赢得金牌，因为它们并没有缺失。
So if I could just help dispel that myth, they're not missing.
因此，如果我能帮助消除这个神话，他们就不会失踪。
They're not absent.
他们并没有缺席。
There is something to the proportions of protein.
蛋白质的比例是有一定关系的。
So if you were to see the heat map of amino acids that I'll share with you later-
所以，如果你想看我稍后与你分享的氨基酸热图——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I looked at this prior to this, and I will say that the proportions of, let's just concentrate on leucine perhaps-
我在此之前看过这个，我会说，让我们集中精力也许是亮氨酸的比例-
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Uh-huh
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
since most listeners will be familiar with leucine as kind of the critical one for muscle building.
因为大多数听众都会熟悉亮氨酸，它是肌肉锻炼的关键物质。
I've got that in air quotes for those-
我已经在空中引用了那些-
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
just listening.
只是听。
How do the different sources for protein play out in that case?
在这种情况下，不同的蛋白质来源如何发挥作用？
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Almost identical, all the way down the list of foods that I have.
几乎完全相同，一直在我吃的食物清单中。
Leucine is not a problem in plant food.
亮氨酸在植物性食品中不是问题。
The problem in plant food is it's low in lysine for grains, and it's low in methionine for beans.
植物性食品的问题是谷物中的赖氨酸含量低，豆类中的蛋氨酸含量低。
They're actually called limiting amino acids because they would run out.
它们实际上被称为限制氨基酸，因为它们会耗尽。
If you only ate grains or you only ate beans, they would run out first, and then you'd be screwed.
如果你只吃谷物或只吃豆类，它们会先耗尽，然后你就完蛋了。
You can't actually substitute another amino acid for a hormone or an enzyme.
实际上你不能用另一种氨基酸代替激素或酶。
You have to have all the amino acids in the proportions you want.
您必须以所需的比例获得所有氨基酸。
And that's where the complementary thing came in, because grains, although they're low in lysine, are a little high in methionine, and beans, which are low in methionine, are a little high in lysine.
这就是互补品的用武之地，因为谷物虽然赖氨酸含量较低，但蛋氨酸含量较高，而豆类虽然蛋氨酸含量较低，但赖氨酸含量较高。
If you ate them together, it would be closer to the proportions in meat.
如果一起吃的话，会更接近肉类的比例。
Meat would still be better.
肉还是会更好。
Because animals are animals and we're animals, the proportions are perfect in animals.
因为动物就是动物，我们也是动物，所以动物的比例是完美的。
But what most people in this conference where I presented to, the chefs, their jaws were on the floor like, "Seriously, the proportions are that similar?
但在这次我向厨师们介绍的会议上，大多数人的下巴都掉到了地板上，“说真的，比例有那么相似吗？
God, that is mind-boggling that they're that similar." I realize they're not perfect.
天哪，他们竟然如此相似，真是令人难以置信。”我意识到他们并不完美。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Was this made equivalent for calories?
这相当于卡路里吗？
Was it 100 calories of beans versus-
是 100 卡路里的豆类还是——
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
No, this is proportion.
不，这是比例。
This is proportion.
这是比例。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Proportion.
比例。
But if I took, let's just say, 100 calories, which just for sake of example, and we took your chart, which shows, and again, I looked at this prior to our conversation today, and it did hit me square in the face that all these plant sources, they have all the different amino acids that beef does in different proportions, but they have them.
但是，如果我摄入了，比如说，100卡路里，这只是为了举例，我们采取了你的图表，其中显示了，在我们今天的谈话之前，我再次查看了这一点，这确实让我眼前一亮，所有这些植物来源，它们都含有牛肉所含的不同氨基酸，但它们的比例不同。
But if we said, okay, now we're going to make that chart, but for 100 calories of food.
但如果我们说，好吧，现在我们要制作该图表，但针对的是 100 卡路里的食物。
So it's either 100 calories of rib eye-
所以要么是 100 卡路里的肋眼牛排——
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or 100 calories of red beans, or 100 calories-
或 100 卡路里红豆，或 100 卡路里-
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Uh-huh
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of quinoa.
藜麦。
You get the idea.
你明白了。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Absolutely, and that's why for the next slide, when I give these presentations, my next slide is 100 calories of 20 foods.
当然，这就是为什么在下一张幻灯片中，当我进行这些演示时，我的下一张幻灯片是 20 种食物的 100 卡路里热量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We didn't plan that, folks.
伙计们，我们没有计划这么做。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
So it shows for black beans, two and a half cups would be 40 grams of protein.
因此，对于黑豆来说，两杯半就含有 40 克蛋白质。
For soybeans, two cups would be 40 grams of protein.
对于大豆来说，两杯就含有 40 克蛋白质。
For rice, 20 cups of rice would be 40 grams of protein.
对于大米来说，20 杯大米就含有 40 克蛋白质。
But if you put the different plant sources together, broccoli is actually oddly a good source of protein.
但如果你把不同的植物来源放在一起，西兰花实际上是一种很好的蛋白质来源。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can we use that protein?
我们可以使用那种蛋白质吗？
Or this is just what-
或者这就是——
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
All of it.
所有这一切。
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Because bioavailability gets lumped into quality protein.
因为生物利用度集中在优质蛋白质中。
So there are these charts that say that egg is the near perfect protein, or beef is the near perfect protein-
所以有这些图表说鸡蛋是近乎完美的蛋白质，或者牛肉是近乎完美的蛋白质-
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Uh-huh
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because of the bioavailability, our ability to use the amino acids as opposed to the amino acids being bound up by fiber or somehow not accessible.
由于生物利用度，我们能够使用氨基酸，而不是被纤维束缚或以某种方式无法获取的氨基酸。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So in my field, that term would really mean digestibility and absorbability.
所以在我的领域，这个术语实际上意味着消化率和吸收率。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
And so at the level of protein and carbs and fats, humans eat get like 80% to 85% to 90% of everything.
因此，就蛋白质、碳水化合物和脂肪而言，人类吃掉了所有食物的 80% 至 85% 至 90%。
It's not like 20% and 80%.
不像20%和80%。
Even if it's plants bound in fiber, you're getting 80% of the protein absorbed.
即使是含有纤维的植物，您也会吸收 80% 的蛋白质。
And then it's a question if the proportions are correct.
然后就是比例是否正确的问题。
So if you're losing a little bit from not absorbing it all, and if the proportions aren't perfect, that's where meat comes out on top.
因此，如果你因为没有完全吸收而损失了一点，并且比例不完美，那么肉就会脱颖而出。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
So some colleagues and I wrote a paper called "Modernizing the Definition of Protein Quality," which has technically always been on amino acid proportions and availability of digestion and absorption, and meat always wins.
因此，我和一些同事写了一篇名为“蛋白质质量定义现代化”的论文，从技术上讲，该论文始终关注氨基酸比例以及消化和吸收的可用性，而肉类总是获胜。
And we said, that's fine, but nobody in the US is deficient in protein.
我们说，这很好，但美国没有人缺乏蛋白质。
I go and talk at conferences all the time, and I say, "Oh, you're all physicians.
我总是去会议上演讲，我说：“哦，你们都是医生。
How many of you have a vegan or a vegetarian in your practice?" All their hands go up.
你们中有多少人是素食主义者或在实践中吃素？”他们都举起了手。
They have some.
他们有一些。
I say, "How many of you ever, in your entire career, treated anyone for protein deficiency?" And no one's hand has been up to this day.
我说：“在你们的整个职业生涯中，有多少人曾治疗过蛋白质缺乏症患者？”而且直到今天还没有人出手。
No one has treated them for protein deficiency, short of caloric deficiency or other things that are going on, and it's not an isolated protein deficiency because they're vegetarians or vegans.
没有人治疗他们的蛋白质缺乏症、热量缺乏症或其他正在发生的事情，而且这不是一种孤立的蛋白质缺乏症，因为他们是素食主义者或纯素食主义者。
And so our definition included environmental impact and the other nutrients that come with meat that don't come with plants.
因此，我们的定义包括环境影响以及肉类中不含植物的其他营养成分。
And so when we created a scale that said chemical acid, amino acid composition, and bioavailability, and impact on the planet, and the other nutrients that come with it are absent, plants and animals were the same.
因此，当我们创建一个标度来表示化学酸、氨基酸组成、生物利用度以及对地球的影响，并且不存在随之而来的其他营养素时，植物和动物是相同的。
We sort of neutralized it.
我们有点中和了它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Levels.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Levels。
Levels is a program that lets you see how different foods affect your health by giving you real-time feedback on your diet using a continuous glucose monitor.
Levels 是一个程序，通过使用连续血糖监测仪为您的饮食提供实时反馈，让您了解不同的食物如何影响您的健康。
One of the most important factors in both short and long-term health is your body's ability to manage glucose.
短期和长期健康最重要的因素之一是您的身体管理血糖的能力。
This is something I've discussed in depth on this podcast with experts such as Dr. Chris Palmer, Dr. Robert Lustig, and Dr. Casey Means.
这是我在这个播客中与 Chris Palmer 博士、Robert Lustig 博士和 Casey Means 博士等专家深入讨论的内容。
One thing that's abundantly clear is that to maintain energy and focus throughout the day, you want to keep your blood glucose relatively steady without any big spikes or crashes.
一件非常清楚的事情是，为了全天保持精力充沛和注意力集中，您希望血糖保持相对稳定，没有任何大的峰值或崩溃。
I first started using Levels about three years ago as a way to try and understand how different foods impact my blood glucose levels.
大约三年前，我第一次开始使用水平来尝试了解不同食物如何影响我的血糖水平。
Levels has proven to be incredibly informative for helping me determine what food choices I should make and when best to eat relative to things like exercise, sleep, and work.
事实证明，水平对于帮助我确定应该选择哪些食物以及相对于锻炼、睡眠和工作等方面的最佳饮食时间而言，提供了令人难以置信的信息。
Indeed, using Levels has helped me shape my entire schedule.
事实上，使用 Levels 帮助我制定了我的整个日程安排。
I now have more energy than ever, and I sleep better than ever, and I attribute that largely to understanding how different foods and behaviors impact my blood glucose.
我现在比以往任何时候都有更多的精力，而且我的睡眠也比以往任何时候都更好，我将这很大程度上归因于了解不同的食物和行为如何影响我的血糖。
So if you're interested in learning more about Levels and trying a CGM yourself, go to levels.link/huberman.
因此，如果您有兴趣了解有关 Levels 的更多信息并亲自尝试 CGM，请访问levels.link/huberman。
Right now, Levels is offering an additional two free months of membership when signing up.
目前，Levels 在注册时提供额外两个月的免费会员资格。
Again, that's levels.link, spelled of course L-I-N-K, /huberman to get the additional two free months of membership.
同样，这是levels.link，当然拼写为L-I-N-K，/huberman，以获得额外两个月的免费会员资格。
I really appreciate all that information.
我真的很感激所有这些信息。
Very illuminating.
很有启发性。
And I'll just remind myself and everyone that I love vegetables.
我会提醒自己和每个人我喜欢蔬菜。
In fact, these days-- I'll say this, for anyone listening, one of the great things about getting older is I actually eat less, but I just try and focus on eating quality food, and I just find that I don't need to eat as much food to maintain my body weight and feel good and have energy.
事实上，现在，我要对所有听的人说，变老的一大好处是我实际上吃得更少，但我只是尝试专注于吃优质食物，而且我发现我不需要吃那么多食物来维持体重、感觉良好和精力充沛。
In fact, I'm eating less and less each year.
事实上，我吃的东西一年比一年少。
Once I start eating, I like to eat.
一旦开始吃饭，我就喜欢吃。
But I think one of the markers of health, in my opinion, is the ability to wait to eat or to eat a slightly larger meal and not have it crater your sleep or something like that, or to eat less one day and more the next day.
但我认为，在我看来，健康的标志之一是能够等待吃饭或吃稍微多一点的饭菜，而不会让它影响你的睡眠或类似的事情，或者一天吃得少，第二天吃得多。
And maybe we don't need as much protein every day.
也许我们每天不需要那么多蛋白质。
I've played with this idea before of limiting the amount of protein I eat for a few days and then going to a barbecue and eating two ribeyes and enjoying that more.
我以前曾尝试过这样的想法：限制几天的蛋白质摄入量，然后去烧烤，吃两块肋眼牛排，然后享受更多。
I think we think of things in this very static way-
我认为我们以这种非常静态的方式思考事物-
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
like best thing to eat each day.
喜欢每天吃最好的东西。
And you also illuminate for us that there's a lot of nutrition in beans and legumes and other plants.
您还向我们阐明，豆类和豆科植物以及其他植物中含有大量营养。
And again, I'm starting to explore this more and more because I'm not a great cook, but I love to eat when I do eat.
再说一次，我开始越来越多地探索这一点，因为我不是一个出色的厨师，但我喜欢吃东西。
And I do think there's a real dearth of variety in the American diet that we can all work on.
我确实认为美国饮食确实缺乏多样性，而我们都可以为此努力。
As long as we're talking about meat, I'm going to pick on Beyond Meat a little bit.
只要我们谈论肉类，我就会稍微挑剔一下Beyond Meat。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think it's the child of a Stanford professor that started this company, right?
我认为是斯坦福大学教授的孩子创办了这家公司，对吗？
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
No, that's Impossible.
不，那是不可能的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Impossible.
不可能。
Then I'm going to pick on them both.
然后我会选择他们两个。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Pat Brown.
帕特·布朗。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm going to pick on them both.
我要选择他们两个。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know these people.
我不认识这些人。
I have nothing against them.
我对他们没有任何意见。
But I will say that I saw some pretty convincing arguments against these, for lack of a better word, artificial meats, fake meats.
但我要说的是，我看到了一些非常令人信服的反对这些的论据，因为缺乏更好的词，人造肉，假肉。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You put up the list of ingredients for Beyond Meat or Impossible meat, and then you compare it to the ingredients in beef, and you don't have to be a nutrition expert to say there's a lot of ingredients.
你把Beyond Meat或Impossible Meat的成分清单列出来，然后你将它与牛肉中的成分进行比较，你不必是营养专家也能说成分很多。
It reads like an encyclopedia of ingredients in the fake meat, which aligns with processed, which aligns with people's notions of fake and bad for us.
它读起来就像一本假肉成分的百科全书，它与加工食品相符，也符合人们对假肉和对我们有害的看法。
So that hits any potential consumer square in the face.
这对任何潜在消费者来说都是一个打击。
So just because there are a lot of ingredients doesn't mean they're all bad for you.
因此，仅仅因为有很多成分并不意味着它们都对您有害。
But you mentioned earlier in the context of dyes and cosmetic additives, a lot of things that can't be pronounced, that we've never heard of.
但你之前提到了染料和化妆品添加剂，很多东西是不能发音的，我们从未听说过。
I have a formal training in science, and half of the ingredients in Beyond and Impossible meat are completely foreign to me.
我接受过正规的科学培训，Beyond 和 Impossible Meat 中的一半成分对我来说完全陌生。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
No, not today.
不，不是今天。
Go to the website right now and look at the ingredient list.
立即访问该网站并查看成分列表。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Well, initially it was overwhelming.
嗯，一开始它是压倒性的。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was overwhelming.
这是压倒性的。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
They responded to that.
他们对此做出了回应。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, great.
好的，太好了。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
And they've reformulated-
他们重新制定了——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great
太棒了
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
...
...
because of that.
因为这个。
It's quite clean.
非常干净。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
And let me go back to your meat.
让我回到你的肉。
So in the ingredients in the meat, is there antibiotics?
那么肉中的成分中，有没有抗生素呢？
Is there hormones?
有激素吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right, the hidden things.
对了，隐藏的东西。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Is there corn?
有玉米吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Is there soy?
有大豆吗？
So it's a really easy argument to make when you slaughtered the beef and you took the kite, and here it is.
因此，当你宰了牛肉并拿走风筝时，这是一个非常容易提出的论点，这就是它。
It is only beef.
这只是牛肉。
That is not everything that went into it.
这还不是全部内容。
So I actually am writing a book, and I have a chapter where I got some guy who had done this whole assessment of meat, and the list is longer than Beyond Meat's of all the things that went into the beef that you would find at the store to get that thing to market.
所以我实际上正在写一本书，有一章我找了一个人对肉类进行了整个评估，这个清单比Beyond Meat的清单还要长，你可以在商店找到将牛肉推向市场的所有成分。
So it's an artificial argument.
所以这是一个人为的争论。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But just because the cow was fed something, how much of that is making it into the meat?
但仅仅因为牛被喂了一些东西，其中有多少会变成肉呢？
Because the issue is how much am I consuming?
因为问题是我消耗了多少？
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Right.
对。
But you would be concerned with all the things that went into making that meat.
但你会关心制作肉的所有事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Unless it was sourced the way I would like, which is grass-fed, pasture-raised.
除非它是按照我想要的方式采购的，即草饲、牧场饲养的。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Which is only 1% of the meat.
这仅占肉的1%。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
So that's the point where I personally make an effort to eat grass-fed meat whenever possible.
因此，这就是我个人尽可能努力吃草饲肉的一点。
I do.
我愿意。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
But the average person can't.
但一般人做不到。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But they can't.
但他们不能。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
That's not accessible.
那是无法访问的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I totally acknowledge.
我完全承认。
So is the argument that Beyond and Impossible are the better option?
那么Beyond 和Impossible 是更好的选择吗？
Let's set aside the cardiometabolic metrics-
让我们先把心脏代谢指标放在一边——
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Uh-huh
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
even though that's very important.
尽管这非常重要。
That it's better in terms of quality of what you're consuming, in terms of, I don't know, sort of health status of the animal versus health status of what came out of the Beyond or Impossible factory?
就你所消费的东西的质量而言，就我不知道而言，动物的健康状况与来自 Beyond 或 Impossible 工厂的东西的健康状况相比，它更好吗？
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
My contention here is, so two of my favorite sayings are instead of what and with what.
我在这里的论点是，所以我最喜欢的两句话是代替什么和用什么。
And so the instead of what, we did a study of Beyond Meat versus red meat.
因此，我们没有研究什么，而是对 Beyond Meat 与红肉进行了研究。
A bunch of people said, "I can't believe you're saying Beyond Meat is healthy.
一群人说：“我不敢相信你说 Beyond Meat 是健康的。
Don't you want them to eat the beans and the lentils and the other things?" I said, "I sure as hell do.
你不想让他们吃豆子、扁豆和其他东西吗？”我说：“我确实这么做。
For 30 years, I've been asking the people to eat more beans and lentils, and they're not.
30 年来，我一直要求人们多吃豆类和扁豆，但他们没有。
They're still having fast food hamburgers." We didn't even use fast food hamburgers.
他们还在吃快餐汉堡。”我们甚至没有使用快餐汉堡。
We used regenerative meat stuff, and we got cardiometabolic benefits.
我们使用再生肉，并且获得了心脏代谢方面的益处。
I'm just saying, for the average American who has access to the meat that's out there, Beyond Meat is healthier.
我只是说，对于能够接触到肉类的普通美国人来说，Beyond Meat 更健康。
So again, when I do a study, I have to have a preset number of outcomes, and I have to have a defined exposure.
因此，当我进行研究时，我必须有预设数量的结果，并且我必须有明确的暴露。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
So at the same dose, LDL cholesterol went down, TMAO went down, weight went down, blood pressure didn't go up.
因此，在相同剂量下，低密度脂蛋白胆固醇下降，TMAO下降，体重下降，血压没有上升。
So here's sort of a funny little sideline.
这是一个有趣的小副业。
A lot of people were trashing them for being processed foods with high sodium.
很多人因为它们是高钠加工食品而将它们扔掉。
And what we found in this study was when we delivered raw meat and raw ground beef and patties, the participants salted them.
我们在这项研究中发现，当我们提供生肉、生碎牛肉和肉饼时，参与者会用盐腌制它们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I definitely salt my food.
我绝对会给我的食物加盐。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
And so when we did it, the sodium was identical, and the blood pressure was identical in the two groups in the study.
因此，当我们这样做时，研究中两组的钠含量和血压是相同的。
So the sodium comment is fair that they have more sodium than red meat, but when you take this to people that are eating food, they salt it, and it ended up being the same level of salt.
因此，关于钠的评论是公平的，它们比红肉含有更多的钠，但当你把它拿给正在吃食物的人时，他们会加盐，最终得到的盐含量是相同的。
So it's not a fair criticism of the way people actually eat it.
因此，这并不是对人们实际食用方式的批评。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I would agree.
是的，我同意。
You swept their knees on that one.
你让他们跪下了。
I'd like to talk about this study that you did, I think it's called the twin study-
我想谈谈你所做的这项研究，我认为它被称为双胞胎研究 -
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Ah.
啊。
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
where, correct me for any errors here, but you basically gave twins, identical twins, the opportunity to follow one diet or was it a pure vegan diet?
哪里，纠正我这里的任何错误，但你基本上给了双胞胎，同卵双胞胎，遵循一种饮食的机会，还是纯素食饮食？
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Vegan, totally vegan.
素食主义者，完全素食主义者。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Totally vegan diet.
完全纯素饮食。
I'm going to tell you at the outset what my takeaway from that study was.
我首先要告诉你们我从这项研究中得到的收获是什么。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then I'm going to let you tell us what actually happened, and I'm doing it in this order on purpose.
然后我会让你告诉我们到底发生了什么，我是故意按照这个顺序做的。
My takeaway was, wow, what a cool study.
我的收获是，哇，这是一项多么酷的研究啊。
Having studied rodents for years that are on the same genetic background, you'd love to be able to do this in humans.
经过多年对具有相同遗传背景的啮齿动物的研究，您希望能够在人类身上做到这一点。
You studied humans with essentially the same genes, as close to it as possible.
你研究了基因基本相同、尽可能接近的人类。
Identical twins, awesome study.
同卵双胞胎，很棒的学习。
And the takeaway, and forgive me, I'm not trying to pick on you or this study, what I grabbed from the news articles about this was at the end of the study, the group that followed the vegan diet said, "Great, a bunch of things improved, but I don't think I can stick to this.
外卖，请原谅我，我并不是想挑剔你或这项研究，我从有关这方面的新闻文章中得到的信息是在研究结束时，遵循纯素饮食的小组说，“太好了，很多事情都得到了改善，但我认为我不能坚持下去。
I'm not going to stick to it going forward." This was reported by Stanford Media, that the takeaway was that they thought it was great, but that they didn't see themselves sticking with it, that it's too hard to stay with.
今后我不会再坚持下去了。”斯坦福媒体报道了这一点，得出的结论是，他们认为这很棒，但他们没有看到自己坚持下去，坚持下去太难了。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So that was my takeaway is this adherence issue.
所以我的结论就是遵守问题。
You can give people the ideal circumstance, but the question is will they follow it in the real world?
你可以给人们一个理想的环境，但问题是他们在现实世界中会遵循它吗？
And that's a tough one, but a critical question because what we're talking about here is how to scale health.
这是一个棘手的问题，但却是一个关键的问题，因为我们在这里讨论的是如何扩大健康规模。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
That's why we're here, right?
这就是我们在这里的原因，对吧？
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We're not here to argue beef versus vegetables.
我们不是来争论牛肉和蔬菜的。
Frankly, I don't care what you eat as long as it works for you.
坦白说，我不在乎你吃什么，只要它对你有用就行。
I know what works for me, but I'm willing to modify it based on the evidence.
我知道什么对我有用，但我愿意根据证据进行修改。
So the reason we sit down is to try and help people make better decisions on their health, and that was my takeaway.
因此，我们坐下来的原因是尝试帮助人们在健康方面做出更好的决定，这就是我的收获。
Now, tell me what the study was with a bit more detail, and if I'm completely wrong about this, I like to think, like any good scientist, I'm happy to be completely wrong.
现在，请更详细地告诉我这项研究的内容，如果我对此完全错误，我想像任何优秀的科学家一样，我很高兴完全错误。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
So let's talk about the study, but let me address that upfront.
那么让我们来谈谈这项研究，但让我先解决这个问题。
So none of those metrics are part of the study.
因此，这些指标都不属于该研究的一部分。
There's no follow-up in the study.
该研究没有后续行动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, this was interviews-
不，这是采访——
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
This always happens
这总是会发生
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
this was interviews with the participants.
这是对参与者的采访。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
So that's not scientific.
所以这不科学。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, but-
不，但是——
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
That's anecdotal.
这是轶事。
So I'll tell you anecdotally-
那我就给大家讲个轶事吧——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How many was eight twins?
八个双胞胎有多少个？
How many twins were in this?
这里面有多少对双胞胎？
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
22 pairs of twins.
22对双胞胎。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
22 pairs of twins, and so each one was assigned to either omnivorous versus vegan?
22对双胞胎，所以每对双胞胎都被分配到杂食性还是纯素性？
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
They get randomized.
他们被随机化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
So I will tell you that there was a Stanford media report on three pairs of twins, and one pair said, "No, we went back to our other diet." One pair said, "Yeah, we're both vegetarian now." And one pair was sort of in the middle of that.
所以我会告诉你，斯坦福媒体有一篇关于三对双胞胎的报道，其中一对说：“不，我们回到了其他饮食习惯。”一对说：“是的，我们现在都是素食主义者了。”其中一对就处于中间位置。
There's another two of the featured twins in the movie, Michael and Charlie, contacted us afterward, and the one who was omnivore said, "We're both trying to be more vegetarian.
电影中另外两个双胞胎，迈克尔和查理，后来联系了我们，杂食者说：“我们都在努力变得更加素食。
Can you give us more resources?"
你能给我们更多的资源吗？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So they shifted?
所以他们转移了？
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
So two of the pairs that I know of that we had anecdotal follow-up with shifted more toward it, and one was intermediate, and one just completely blew it off.
因此，据我所知，我们进行了轶事跟进的两对人更多地转向了这一点，其中一对处于中间位置，另一对则完全放弃了它。
That's an N of four pairs out of 22, not science.
这是22对中的四对中的N，不科学。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
I'm only going to answer it that way.
我只能这样回答。
My anecdotal evidence said some yes, some no.
我的轶事证据表明有些是，有些不是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
No, and you would know.
不，你会知道的。
You ran the study.
你进行了这项研究。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah, and not part of the study.
是的，这不是研究的一部分。
So let's go back to the design because we can have some fun with this.
让我们回到设计，因为我们可以从中得到一些乐趣。
And there's a really fun part.
还有一个非常有趣的部分。
I would love to have the chance to address a critique that we've received that's part of the challenge of communicating this to the public, and it has to do with lean mass, and DEXAs, dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry.
我很想有机会回应我们收到的批评，这是向公众传达这一点的挑战的一部分，它与瘦体重和 DEXA、双能 X 射线吸收测定法有关。
So, the story starts with, this is all funded by a producer who comes to see us in 2021 and asked Justin Sonnenburg, the microbiome expert that you've had on your show, and I, if we would consider doing a study, the parameters being it had to be identical twins, and one arm of the study has to be vegan.
所以，故事开始时，这一切都是由一位制片人资助的，他在 2021 年来看我们，并询问了你们节目中的微生物组专家贾斯汀·索南伯格 (Justin Sonnenburg) 和我，如果我们考虑进行一项研究，参数必须是同卵双胞胎，并且研究的一个分支必须是素食主义者。
His name's Louie Psihoyos.
他的名字叫路易·西霍约斯。
He got an Academy Award a decade ago for "The Cove," which was a documentary about dolphin slaughter in Japan, mercury-laden dolphins who were being fed to schoolchildren.
十年前，他凭借《海湾》获得了奥斯卡奖，该片是一部关于日本海豚屠杀的纪录片，这些充满汞的海豚被喂给小学生。
He also did "Game Changers," which was elite athletes on plant-based diets.
他还制作了“Game Changers”，这是以植物性饮食为基础的精英运动员。
And he wanted to do another one to test out the health of the diet, not in elite athletes, but in the general population.
他还想做另一项实验来测试饮食的健康程度，不是针对精英运动员，而是针对普通人群。
And he said, "I have a donor who has the money, and I have a contract with Netflix.
他说：“我有一位有钱的捐赠者，而且我与 Netflix 签有合同。
They like my idea, and it would have to be identical twins for the science of it.
他们喜欢我的想法，而且从科学角度来看，它必须是同卵双胞胎。
And one diet has to be vegan.
一种饮食必须是纯素的。
Can you design a study?
你能设计一个研究吗？
What would it cost?
需要花多少钱？
How long would it take?" Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
需要多长时间？”等等，等等，等等。
And we said- Wow, that is fascinating.
我们说——哇，这太令人着迷了。
Identical twins is going to be a bitch.
同卵双胞胎将会成为一个婊子。
And he said, "Oh, no, I'm really going to help you, so I'm not going to hold you to the recruitment.
他说：“哦，不，我真的会帮助你，所以我不会阻止你参加招聘。
We've already found a whole bunch of identical twins for you." I said, "Wow, recruiting's the hardest thing.
我们已经为你找到了一大堆同卵双胞胎。”我说：“哇，招聘是最难的事情。
Okay, so we're going to make a good vegan diet and we're going to make a good omnivorous diet, and we're going to randomize each pair of twins one at a time to one versus the other.
好的，所以我们要制定良好的纯素饮食，我们要制定良好的杂食性饮食，并且我们要将每对双胞胎随机分配，一次一个。
And we don't have enough money to do this for a long time.
而且我们没有足够的钱来长期这样做。
We budget it out and you have enough for eight weeks of doing this study, and it would be important that people catch on to the vegan part quickly.
我们做了预算，你有足够的时间进行八周的这项研究，而且让人们快速了解纯素部分非常重要。
The omnivorous thing they already do.
他们已经做了杂食性的事情。
So what about the other group?
那么另一组呢？
Ah, we'll deliver food for the first four weeks, and then for the last four weeks we'll have them cook on their own now that they have enough idea from having been fed for four weeks." And so that's how it started to be designed.
啊，我们将在前四个星期提供食物，然后在最后四个星期，我们将让他们自己做饭，因为他们已经通过四个星期的喂养有了足够的想法。”这就是它的设计方式。
And we got blood and poop in the microbiome and we got epigenetic data and telomere length and things like this, and adherence, and we have a whole new paper on adherence coming out.
我们在微生物组中得到了血液和粪便，我们得到了表观遗传数据和端粒长度以及诸如此类的东西，以及依从性，我们有一篇关于依从性的全新论文问世。
And so we randomized them.
所以我们将它们随机化。
And as part of this, the producer kept asking for more and more things and eventually we said, "Okay, we're measuring a lot of stuff.
作为其中的一部分，制片人不断要求越来越多的东西，最终我们说，“好吧，我们正在测量很多东西。
We have blood and poop and genes, but we can't measure anything else." He says, "I want DEXA.
我们有血液、粪便和基因，但我们无法测量其他任何东西。”他说：“我想要 DEXA。
I want body composition." I said, "I don't have enough money." And he said, "Well, we're going to go ahead.
我想要身体成分。”我说：“我没有足够的钱。”他说：“好吧，我们继续吧。
There's four featured pairs that are going to be in the documentary that we selected ahead of time, and that means there's 18 pairs that aren't involved in the documentary.
我们提前选择了四对将出现在纪录片中的明星组合，这意味着还有 18 对没有出现在纪录片中。
And we have this super studly Nimai Delgado, who is a medal-winning vegan bodybuilder, and he will train them." And so Nimai had access to the four pairs, the eight twins, and nobody else did it.
我们有一个超级强壮的尼迈·德尔加多，他是一位获得奖牌的纯素健美运动员，他将训练他们。”因此，尼迈可以接触到四对，即八对双胞胎，而没有其他人这样做。
And I actually never got those DEXA data.
事实上我从来没有得到过那些 DEXA 数据。
It's not even part of the study.
这甚至不是研究的一部分。
Jumping to the end, when we finished this study, the vegans lost a little weight, more than the other group, and they lowered their LDL cholesterol and they lowered their fasting insulin.
跳到最后，当我们完成这项研究时，纯素食者比其他组减轻了一点体重，并且降低了低密度脂蛋白胆固醇和空腹胰岛素。
In the main paper that got published in JAMA Network Open, on the side, because we measured a ton of crap and now this has to be anecdotal and exploratory because it wasn't the main outcome, LDL was the main outcome on clinicaltrials.gov, a group that does telomere length and epigenetic clocks published a whole separate paper and the vegans, according to the biological clocks, were younger than their omnivorous twins just eight weeks later by epigenetic clocks.
在《JAMA Network Open》上发表的主要论文中，因为我们测量了大量的废话，现在这必须是轶事和探索性的，因为它不是主要结果，LDL 是 ClinicalTrials.gov 上的主要结果，一个研究端粒长度和表观遗传时钟的小组发表了一篇完整的单独论文，根据生物钟，仅八周后，根据表观遗传时钟，纯素食者比他们的杂食性双胞胎年轻。
Not my specialty.
不是我的专长。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How much younger?
年轻多少？
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
It's statistically significant.
它具有统计显着性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Got it.
知道了。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
It's not like in eight weeks you got four years younger.
八周内你不会年轻四岁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
It's more like statistically significant.
它更像是具有统计显着性的。
And their telomere caps were longer in just eight weeks, which I-
他们的端粒帽在短短八周内就更长了，我——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you want to just remind people what that means?
您只想提醒人们这意味着什么吗？
We can-
我们可以——
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Sure.
当然。
So on all our chromosomes, there's sort of a hot new topic which is there's these protective caps on the ends of our chromosomes and as we age, they shorten.
因此，在我们所有的染色体上，有一个热门的新话题，那就是我们的染色体末端有这些保护帽，随着我们年龄的增长，它们会缩短。
And some people are sort of looking at biological age versus chronological age and it would be a good thing to have a longer telomere cap on the ends of your chromosomes.
有些人会比较生物学年龄和实际年龄，如果染色体末端有更长的端粒帽，那将是一件好事。
And I said, "No way in eight weeks." They were.
我说：“八周内不可能。”他们是。
So both of those were statistically significant.
所以这两者都具有统计显着性。
And just as a side note that's a little bit fun, how familiar are you with altmetric scores?
顺便说一句，这有点有趣，您对 altmetric 分数有多熟悉？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In terms of paper recognition?
在纸张识别方面？
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
So the altmetric score for the listeners is my currency and yours as an academic is how many people cite our work.
因此，听众的替代计量分数是我的货币，而作为学者，你的货币是有多少人引用我们的工作。
If no one's cited it, who cares?
如果没有人引用它，谁在乎呢？
And it takes a while.
这需要一段时间。
It could take five or 10 years for people to cite your work.
人们可能需要五年或十年的时间才能引用你的作品。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
The altmetric score is all based on social and traditional media, so it appears the week that your paper comes out and there's some correlation, if you got a lot of media coverage, maybe it will get cited later on.
altmetric分数都是基于社交和传统媒体的，所以看起来你的论文发表的那一周，有一定的相关性，如果你得到了很多媒体的报道，也许以后会被引用。
So the funny thing is a good altmetric score, if you Google it, is 20.
有趣的是，如果你用 Google 搜索一下，一个很好的替代度量分数是 20。
The JAMA Network Open paper had an altmetric score of 2,000, the main paper.
JAMA Network Open 论文的 altmetric 分数为 2,000，是主要论文。
The biological clock epigenetic data and the telomere length had an altmetric score of 3,000.
生物钟表观遗传数据和端粒长度的 altmetric 得分为 3,000。
It was more widely broadcast than the main paper.
它比主要报纸的传播范围更广。
The Sonnenburgs have another paper under review right now, and I can say this because it's already been published preprint.
索南堡夫妇现在还有另一篇论文正在审查中，我可以这样说，因为它已经出版了预印本。
The vegans had better microbiome results.
纯素食者的微生物组结果更好。
And so now we've got cardiometabolic benefits, biological clock telomere length, microbiome benefits on the twins who did this for eight weeks.
现在，连续八周这样做的双胞胎对心脏代谢、生物钟端粒长度、微生物组等方面都有好处。
So those are the scientific results.
这些就是科学结果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that was a strict vegan diet?
那是严格的纯素饮食吗？
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Strict vegan versus-
严格素食主义者 vs-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not a single egg.
一个鸡蛋都没有。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Versus omnivore.
与杂食动物相对。
Okay.
好的。
Now part of this is, think, is my message I want the whole world to go vegan?
现在，想一想，我的信息是我希望全世界都成为素食主义者吗？
No. My idea is if I only have eight weeks, I need to make a big difference in these diets so that if I get a signal, I can see it in eight weeks.
不。我的想法是，如果我只有八周的时间，我需要在这些饮食上做出很大的改变，这样如果我收到信号，我可以在八周内看到它。
Would there be disadvantages or advantages to doing this?
这样做会有缺点还是优点？
And part of the fun of this is the producer approached us in 2021.
其中有趣的部分是制片人在 2021 年与我们接洽。
He said, "My contract with Netflix is I'm going to release this on New Year's Day when people are making their resolutions, not knowing the results ahead of time, 2024." And that means we would have to do this study in the first six months of 2022, analyze them all in the second half of 2022, let the producer film the participants in the study and give him a year to edit it.
他说：“我与 Netflix 的合同是，我将在元旦发布这部影片，当时人们正在做出决定，但提前不知道结果，即 2024 年。”这意味着我们必须在 2022 年前六个月进行这项研究，在 2022 年下半年对它们进行全部分析，让制片人拍摄研究中的参与者，并给他一年的时间进行编辑。
So we did all this fastest study we've ever run actually, and he filmed a lot of other things and we weren't actually sure how much we would be in the docuseries.
所以我们做了所有这些我们实际上进行过的最快的研究，他拍摄了很多其他的东西，我们实际上不确定我们会在纪录片系列中扮演多少角色。
And it's holiday time 2023 at the end of the year and he says, "There's a showing of the Netflix thing.
现在是 2023 年年底的假期，他说：“Netflix 的节目正在放映。
Come." And I say, "I can't come.
来吧。”我说：“我不能来。
I'm not even available." So I never actually even saw it before it was released.
我什至没空。”所以在它发布之前我实际上从未见过它。
And so I wake up in Hawaii in the first week of January and my wife says, "Holy shit, you're number three on Netflix." Fifty million people watched the docuseries.
一月的第一周，我在夏威夷醒来，我的妻子说：“天哪，你在 Netflix 上排名第三。”五千万人观看了这部纪录片。
In January alone.
仅在一月份。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a lot of people.
那是很多人。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Biggest impact, anything I've ever done.
影响最大的是我做过的任何事情。
I can't tell you how many people said they changed their diet from watching the movie, but it also elicited criticisms.
我无法告诉你有多少人说他们通过观看这部电影改变了饮食习惯，但这也招致了批评。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Anytime you get that many eyes on something, you're going to get critique.
任何时候你都会受到很多人的关注，你就会受到批评。
It's also a beautiful demonstration of how science and new form media are starting to intersect.
这也是科学与新形式媒体如何开始交叉的美丽展示。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
And so this is really-- I've actually been asked to do a whole bunch of talks now on health science communication.
所以这真的是——我现在被要求做一大堆关于健康科学传播的演讲。
And when I get the chance to describe it, it's pretty fun to look into, such as in the docuseries, the producer made a big deal of the DEXA data, and it seems odd that he made a big deal of it because the vegans that were featured, in particular Michael and Charlie, one of them lost lean mass.
当我有机会描述它时，研究起来非常有趣，比如在系列纪录片中，制片人对 DEXA 数据做了很大的处理，而他对它的大处理似乎很奇怪，因为其中的素食主义者，特别是迈克尔和查理，其中一个失去了瘦体重。
The vegan lost lean mass, and who wants to lose muscle?
素食主义者失去了瘦体重，谁想失去肌肉？
That sucks.
太糟糕了。
But that wasn't even an average data point.
但这甚至不是平均数据点。
That was one data point.
这是一个数据点。
Turns out Charlie moved three times during the eight weeks of the study, and he didn't follow Nimai's advice anyway, and he was having a hard time eating.
事实证明，查理在八周的研究期间搬了三次家，而且他并没有听从尼迈的建议，而且吃饭也很困难。
So that's why you have more than one person in a study.
这就是为什么一项研究中有多个人的原因。
You have lots of people.
你有很多人。
Never saw those data.
从来没见过那些数据。
People saw it featured on Netflix, and the reason it was featured on Netflix, because then he got to show off Nimai, who's this totally ripped, buff, vegan dude on there.
人们看到它在 Netflix 上播出，而它在 Netflix 上播出的原因是因为他在那里炫耀了 Nimai，他是一个完全撕裂、健壮、纯素食的家伙。
But people saw that, "Ah, I saw the Charlie data.
但人们看到了，“啊，我看到了查理的数据。
He lost lean muscle.
他失去了瘦肌肉。
Gardner, you are so unethical.
加德纳，你太不道德了。
You left that out of the JAMA paper.
你在 JAMA 论文中遗漏了这一点。
You're manipulative.
你很善于操纵。
I can't believe you left data out of the paper to only show the things that were positive." And my response was, "I wish you could've said it was only in the eight people.
我不敢相信你在报纸上留下了数据，只显示积极的事情。”我的回答是：“我希望你能说这只是在八个人中。
I never saw the data.
我从来没有看到过数据。
I didn't have them.
我没有。
I reported all the data that I said I would report." So that's sort of one-
我报告了所有我说过要报告的数据。”所以这有点像——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, that's the challenge with merging with forms of media where there aren't a preset criteria.
是的，这就是与没有预设标准的媒体形式融合所面临的挑战。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is true of social media.
社交媒体也是如此。
We've decentralized public health discussion.
我们已经分散了公共卫生讨论。
People no longer just look to what's coming from universities.
人们不再只关注大学的成果。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The word expert doesn't mean anything anymore because no one knows who to call an expert and who not to call it, who's the better expert.
专家这个词已经没有任何意义了，因为没有人知道谁该称为专家，谁不该称为专家，谁是更好的专家。
The experts don't agree.
专家们并不同意。
As soon as people heard the experts don't agree enough times, that went from capital E expert to lowercase E, to italicized, to in quotes, to what's an expert?
一旦人们听到专家不同意足够多的次数，就会从大写的 E 专家变成小写的 E，到斜体，到引号，到什么是专家？
Now, I'm not saying science doesn't matter.
现在，我并不是说科学不重要。
I'm a scientist.
我是一名科学家。
I care about science, obviously, but I think that new form media can be leveraged in both directions.
显然，我关心科学，但我认为新形式媒体可以在两个方向上发挥作用。
And I will say that "Game Changers" did something very clever.
我想说的是，“游戏规则改变者”做了一些非常聪明的事情。
I disagree with the conclusion, but you know what most people took away from "Game Changers?"
我不同意这个结论，但你知道大多数人从《游戏规则改变者》中得到了什么吗？
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
The penis thing.
阴茎的事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The penis thing.
阴茎的事。
The penis thing.
阴茎的事。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
I know.
我知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Which is horrible science.
这是可怕的科学。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Which it's not even science.
这甚至不是科学。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
It's not science.
这不是科学。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not even science.
这甚至不是科学。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
It wasn't science.
这不是科学。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And anyone that knows anything about the relationship between nutrition and testosterone, testosterone and erections, by the way, it's also important that estrogen levels be sufficiently high in men as well for libido.
顺便说一句，任何了解营养与睾酮、睾酮与勃起之间关系的人都知道，男性的雌激素水平足够高对于性欲也很重要。
There's so many misconceptions about all of that, but what did they take away?
关于这一切有很多误解，但它们带走了什么？
They took away the penis stuff, which just speaks to the slippery slope of any kind of public health discussion.
他们拿走了阴茎的东西，这恰恰说明了任何类型的公共卫生讨论的滑坡。
I would say you're doing awesome given that people hear vegan and it's going to make 90% of people kind of brace-
我想说，鉴于人们听到素食主义者，你做得很棒，这会让 90% 的人感到支持——
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because they think they're going to get an ear full of a bunch of things that they should be doing and about how they're evil because of all the animals that are being tortured.
因为他们认为他们会听到一堆他们应该做的事情，以及因为所有正在遭受折磨的动物而感到他们是多么邪恶。
And look, again, factory farms, terrible.
再看看工厂化农场，太可怕了。
I just want to just say before I forget, earlier you used the term protein flip.
我只想说，在我忘记之前，您之前使用了“蛋白质翻转”一词。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I actually think that's a great way to describe the diet because it includes-
我实际上认为这是描述饮食的好方法，因为它包括-
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Oh, good.
哦，很好。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and you notice there's nothing about plants in there.
你会发现里面没有任何关于植物的东西。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it has protein there.
它含有蛋白质。
So I wonder how many Google employees it takes to come up with a discussion where everyone can agree, but I'm putting in a vote for the protein flip-
所以我想知道需要多少谷歌员工才能提出一个每个人都同意的讨论，但我要投票支持蛋白质翻转——
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Protein flip
蛋白质翻转
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
diet.
饮食。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because it sets a conceptual idea of what you're trying to do.
因为它为你想要做的事情设定了一个概念性的想法。
You put the meat on the outside as opposed to central.
你把肉放在外面而不是中间。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I'm voting for protein flip.
所以我投票支持蛋白质翻转。
I'm not sure I'm going to do it, but I like protein flip.
我不确定我会这么做，但我喜欢蛋白质翻转。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Okay.
好的。
That sounds really good.
听起来确实不错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
So we were never pushing the vegan diet as a whole thing.
所以我们从来没有把纯素饮食作为一个整体来推行。
It's just like this is the study design, we have to do this.
就好像这就是研究设计，我们就必须这样做。
So another of the critiques comes from Peter Attia, and this is going to go back to a parking lot item from the beginning of our discussion when we were talking about ultra-processed foods and the need in science to isolate a variable.
因此，另一个批评来自彼得·阿提亚（Peter Attia），这将回到我们讨论开始时的停车场项目，当时我们正在谈论超加工食品以及科学上隔离变量的需要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are you going to make me defend my good friend Peter Attia?
你想让我保护我的好朋友彼得·阿提亚吗？
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Sure, yeah.
当然，是的。
Okay, so interestingly, when it came to those ultra-processed foods, that was an important point because there's 150 chemicals, and in so many ultra-processed foods, they're in combination.
好吧，有趣的是，当谈到那些超加工食品时，这一点很重要，因为有 150 种化学物质，而且在如此多的超加工食品中，它们是混合在一起的。
So it's really hard to call out one of them or identify one and then put them all together.
因此，很难找出其中的一个或识别出其中一个，然后将它们全部放在一起。
So you're right.
所以你是对的。
At one level, science needs to be isolationist and reductionist.
在某种程度上，科学需要是孤立主义和还原主义的。
In the nutrition world, we've actually moved from nutrients to foods to food patterns.
在营养领域，我们实际上已经从营养物质转向食物，再转向食物模式。
So one of the things that the dietary guidelines for Americans actually did 10 years ago was they said, "God, we've been praising fiber, and we've been slamming saturated fat forever." And so if you say, "Hey, patient of mine, go get fiber and avoid saturated fat." It's like, that's not helpful.
因此，美国人的饮食指南实际上在 10 年前就做了一件事，他们说：“天哪，我们一直在赞扬纤维，但我们一直在猛烈抨击饱和脂肪。”因此，如果你说：“嘿，我的病人，去获取纤维并避免饱和脂肪。”就好像，这没有什么帮助。
I go to the grocery store to buy food.
我去杂货店买食物。
And they say, "Ah, okay, go buy avocados and stop buying luncheon meats." Okay, that's a little more helpful.
他们说：“啊，好吧，去买鳄梨吧，别再买午餐肉了。”好吧，这更有帮助一点。
And then what we would find is people heard about the Mediterranean diet, and I'm going to be ridiculous here, but they'd have their egg McMuffin for breakfast and their Whopper for lunch and a Big Mac for dinner.
然后我们会发现人们听说过地中海饮食，我在这里会很荒谬，但他们早餐吃鸡蛋松饼，午餐吃皇堡，晚餐吃巨无霸。
And by their nightstand, they put a little jigger of olive oil, and they'd chug that before they went to bed and said, "I'm Mediterranean."
他们在床头柜上放了一点橄榄油，睡觉前喝了一大口，然后说：“我是地中海人。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know if it was that extreme.
不知道是不是这么极端。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
But my point is, then they said, "Ah, so you know, some people are gaming this, sort of identifying a food.
但我的观点是，然后他们说，“啊，所以你知道，有些人正在玩这个游戏，有点识别食物。
Maybe what we need to talk about is patterns." So there's been a shift in the public health community in nutrition about dealing with patterns.
也许我们需要讨论的是模式。”因此，公共卫生界在营养方面的处理模式发生了转变。
So Peter called me out and he said, "That vegan study is so stupid." He didn't say so stupid.
于是彼得叫我出去，他说：“纯素研究太愚蠢了。”他没说那么蠢。
He said, "It's violated the principles of science.
他说：“这违反了科学原理。
They not only manipulated the saturated fat, they manipulated the fiber.
他们不仅控制了饱和脂肪，还控制了纤维。
They didn't isolate this.
他们没有隔离这一点。
You have failed the basics of Science 101." The header of the critique for me was that I had compromised Science 101 by failing to isolate a single variable.
你没有通过科学 101 的基础知识。”对我的批评的标题是，我因未能隔离单个变量而损害了《科学 101》。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Was this on YouTube or something?
这是在 YouTube 还是其他网站上发布的吗？
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
It's in his post that he does wherever.
他无论在哪里，都在他的岗位上做事。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Is it LinkedIn or is it his letter?
是 LinkedIn 还是他的信？
And the response is, if you are going to test a vegan diet versus an omnivore diet, it would have to be different in saturated fat and fiber, B12 and cholesterol, eggs and lentils.
答案是，如果你要测试纯素饮食与杂食饮食，它的饱和脂肪和纤维、维生素 B12 和胆固醇、鸡蛋和扁豆的含量必须有所不同。
It would have to be different in many, many categories.
它在很多很多类别上都必须有所不同。
And so to circle back to your original comment, good science has to isolate the variable.
因此，回到你最初的评论，好的科学必须隔离变量。
It depends.
这取决于。
If the question is the vegan diet versus an alternative pattern, then the variable you're isolating is the diet pattern.
如果问题是纯素饮食与替代模式，那么您要隔离的变量就是饮食模式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
And so it would have to be absent-
所以它必须不存在——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
...
...
in meat and eggs and chicken and everything.
肉、蛋、鸡肉等等。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, fair.
是的，公平。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
And that doesn't undermine the science.
这并没有破坏科学。
So I got crap for not publishing the DEXA data, which I didn't have.
所以我因为没有发布 DEXA 数据而感到沮丧，因为我没有这些数据。
Peter gave me crap for that, and I got one other piece of crap that I really addressed really well on Twitter, and I'm super proud of this.
彼得为此对我说了一堆废话，而我又得到了另一段废话，我在 Twitter 上确实很好地解决了这个问题，我对此感到非常自豪。
Somebody went to the supplement where many of the tables were because they didn't fit in the main paper, and they saw the caloric distribution in the two arms during the feeding period and when they were eating on their own.
有人去看了许多表格所在的增刊，因为它们不适合主纸，他们看到了喂食期间和自己进食时两只手臂的热量分布。
And what they noticed was during the phase where we were feeding people and delivering food to them, the vegans were eating fewer calories.
他们注意到，在我们给人们喂食并向他们提供食物的阶段，素食主义者摄入的卡路里更少。
And the criticism on Twitter was, when you fed them, you gamed the study by delivering less food to the vegans.
推特上的批评是，当你给他们喂食时，你通过向素食主义者提供更少的食物来欺骗这项研究。
They lost weight because you under-delivered calories to them.
他们体重减轻是因为你给他们提供的卡路里不足。
And maybe all the differences that we're seeing are just a caloric difference.
也许我们看到的所有差异都只是热量差异。
They're not the diet type.
他们不是节食类型。
That would undermine the whole study.
这会破坏整个研究。
And it was great.
这太棒了。
I had the chance to respond.
我有机会做出回应。
So I used to do a lot more on it.
所以我过去在这方面做了很多事情。
I don't anymore, but I did Tweetorials back when it was Twitter.
我不再这样做了，但当 Twitter 还存在的时候我就做过 Tweetorials。
And I said, "That is a great catch that you saw this.
我说：“你看到这个真是太棒了。
Thanks for going to the supplement.
感谢您访问补充。
That's pretty cool.
太酷了。
So let me explain something else." So for the food company that delivered the food, we absolutely matched the caloric intake that we were delivering.
那么让我解释一下其他事情。”因此，对于提供食品的食品公司来说，我们绝对匹配我们提供的热量摄入量。
But in a nutrition study, it doesn't come with a gavage.
但在营养研究中，它并不伴随灌胃。
You can't cram the food down their throats.
你不能把食物塞进他们的喉咙里。
You have to let them eat what they want of what-- So we didn't actually publish what we delivered.
你必须让他们想吃什么就吃什么——所以我们实际上并没有发布我们提供的东西。
We published what they said they ate, and they ate slightly fewer calories, and they lost a small amount of weight on the side.
我们公布了他们所说的饮食情况，他们吃的卡路里略少，而且体重也减轻了一点。
So good for you for catching that, but let me have the chance to show you this.
你能抓住这一点真是太好了，但让我有机会向你展示这一点。
And there's actually another Twitter person named Dr. Tro who trolls me and gives me grief for some of my studies, and he wasn't the one who critiqued me.
实际上还有一位名叫 Tro 博士的推特用户对我进行了恶搞，并为我的一些研究让我感到悲伤，但他并不是批评我的人。
It was someone else, and apparently, he did critique me, and I didn't see it.
那是别人，显然，他确实批评了我，但我没有看到。
And the next day, I got a Twitter video apology from Dr. Tro.
第二天，我收到了特罗博士的推特视频道歉。
He said, "I read your response to the criticism.
他说：“我读了你对批评的回应。
I admit I'm wrong.
我承认我错了。
I retract my critique."
我收回我的批评。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is one of the great things about social media.
这是社交媒体的伟大之处之一。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
And if it could be more civil like that.
如果可以这样更文明一点就好了。
It wasn't even just a message.
这甚至不仅仅是一条消息。
It was a video retraction.
这是一个视频撤回。
To be fair, he said something the year before where I wrote back and said, "This is so cool.
公平地说，他前一年说过一些话，我回信说：“这太酷了。
We agree on this.
我们对此表示同意。
I'm sure we don't disagree on everything.
我确信我们不会在所有事情上都存在分歧。
Thanks for calling this out, and I want to call out you and agree that what you said, I think, is true.
感谢您提出这一点，我想大声疾呼并同意您所说的，我认为是正确的。
Let's try to make this social media discourse more civil and more complete." That was almost better than doing the study for me, was to see this social media exchange where we said, "Ah, I sort of misunderstood that point.
让我们努力让社交媒体话语更加文明、更加完整。”这几乎比为我做这项研究更好，就是看到这个社交媒体交流，我们说：“啊，我有点误解了这一点。
Thanks for clarifying.
感谢您的澄清。
Wow, now we can move on and deal with some of the real substantive differences that we have."
哇，现在我们可以继续前进并处理我们所存在的一些真正的实质性分歧。”
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
College football is back.
大学橄榄球回来了。
So Hilton called in me, the superstition concierge, to make your fan rituals a reality.
所以希尔顿请来了我这个迷信礼宾员，让你的粉丝仪式成为现实。
Need a room to match your lucky number?
需要一间与您的幸运数字相匹配的房间吗？
We got you.
我们找到你了。
Want to make sure our team doesn't wash your lucky jersey?
想要确保我们的团队不会清洗您的幸运球衣吗？
Ooh, that smells lucky.
哦，这闻起来很幸运。
Hilton's unmatched hospitality can keep up with any superstition.
希尔顿无与伦比的热情好客可以消除任何迷信。
Even a marching band wake-up call at 5:55 and 55 seconds.
甚至还有 5 点 55 分 55 秒的军乐队叫醒服务。
Hit it.
击中它。
When you need a team that will do whatever it takes on game day, it matters where you stay.
当你需要一支在比赛当天不惜一切代价的球队时，你留在哪里就很重要。
Hilton.
希尔顿。
For the stay.
为了住宿。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, having been involved in various online points of friction and subsequent relief, resolution, I should say, it's a very satisfying feeling when that happens.
是的，在经历了各种网上摩擦点以及随后的缓解、解决之后，我应该说，当这种情况发生时，这是一种非常令人满意的感觉。
In fact, that's how Layne Norton and I got to know one another.
事实上，我和莱恩·诺顿就是这样认识的。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He critiqued something I said, and we disagreed about it.
他批评了我说的一些话，我们对此意见不一。
I wrote back.
我回信了。
I invited him on the podcast.
我邀请他参加播客。
This happened in a discussion around cannabis.
这发生在关于大麻的讨论中。
I did an episode on cannabis that I still hold to what's in there.
我拍了一集关于大麻的节目，我仍然保留着里面的东西。
There was some critique from the cannabis research community.
大麻研究界提出了一些批评。
I invited the guy on.
我邀请了那个人。
He came on here.
他来到这里了。
We debated those things.
我们争论过这些事情。
Turns out the discrepancy in interpretation turned out to be relatively minor-
事实证明，解释上的差异相对较小——
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
overall.
总体而言。
That's how science is done.
科学就是这样完成的。
And social media has that opportunity, but it has far more opportunity to just cast stones over walls and that kind of thing.
社交媒体有这样的机会，但它有更多的机会只是往墙上扔石头之类的事情。
I'm glad you highlighted those points of rebuttal and resolution.
我很高兴你强调了这些反驳和解决的要点。
I want to make sure that we talk about fermented food, but in the context of fiber also.
我想确保我们谈论发酵食品，但也在纤维的背景下。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think by now everyone knows fiber is super important.
我想现在每个人都知道纤维非常重要。
Anyone that disagrees with that, to me, should see a neurologist, because it's just so very clear that if you Follow the protein flip diet or the more meat, less vegetables, whatever, you need fiber.
对我来说，任何不同意这一点的人都应该去看神经科医生，因为很明显，如果你遵循蛋白质翻转饮食或多吃肉，少吃蔬菜，无论如何，你都需要纤维。
It's anti-cancer, it's pro-digestion, it's all sorts of great things.
它可以抗癌，可以促进消化，等等。
But you did this study with our colleague, Justin Sonnenburg.
但您与我们的同事贾斯汀·索南伯格 (Justin Sonnenburg) 一起进行了这项研究。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love this study, and there's some interesting footnotes about fiber in there, but maybe you could just highlight the top contour of the study for people.
我喜欢这项研究，其中有一些关于纤维的有趣脚注，但也许您可以为人们突出显示该研究的顶部轮廓。
And I will say this study convinced me to eat low-sugar fermented foods every single day.
我想说的是，这项研究说服了我每天吃低糖发酵食品。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Nice.
不错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I have been ever since, and I recommend that to everyone who asks me for health advice.
从那时起我就一直这样做，我向每个向我寻求健康建议的人推荐这一点。
I think it's extremely important and effective.
我认为这是非常重要和有效的。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Okay, cool.
好吧，酷。
Love the Sonnenburgs.
喜欢索南堡一家。
Justin and Erica are two of the greatest scientists that I've ever worked with.
贾斯汀和艾丽卡是我合作过的两位最伟大的科学家。
They're practical, they're very rigorous scientists.
他们很务实，是非常严谨的科学家。
There's a little backstory that's kind of fun.
有一个有趣的小背景故事。
Much as this is the first time I've met you, even though you're at Stanford, Justin and I had never met at Stanford, and we went to a conference in Seattle and met one another because we were presenting after one another.
尽管这是我第一次见到你，尽管你在斯坦福大学，但贾斯汀和我从未在斯坦福大学见过面，我们去西雅图参加了一个会议，并因为我们相继发表演讲而认识了彼此。
And he said, "Oh my God, Christopher, I just saw your presentation where you showed how much you change people's diets.
他说：“天啊，克里斯托弗，我刚刚看到你的演讲，你展示了你对人们饮食的改变有多大。
I have colleagues who told me never to go near humans, like only do mice because humans are a pain in the ass, and I'm terrified of humans.
我的同事告诉我永远不要靠近人类，就像老鼠一样，因为人类是令人讨厌的，而我害怕人类。
I was only going to do mice, but all the stuff I find in mice looks like it's diet related." And I said, "Oh, poop is icky.
我本来只想做老鼠，但我在老鼠身上发现的所有东西看起来都与饮食有关。”我说：“哦，大便很恶心。
I do not want to do poop, but I fear poop.
我不想拉屎，但我害怕拉屎。
If you fear humans and I fear poop, we could get together." And he said, "Great, let's do some stuff together.
如果你害怕人类而我害怕粪便，我们可以聚在一起。”他说：“太好了，让我们一起做一些事情吧。
What should we do?" And he really found fiber to be the big deal for his mice, and he said, "Let's do a fiber study with humans." And I said, "Ah, it seems like the public is really confused about probiotic and prebiotic." Probiotic being live bacteria and prebiotic being the fibers that feed them.
我们该怎么办？”他确实发现纤维对他的老鼠来说很重要，他说：“让我们对人类进行纤维研究。”我说：“啊，看来公众对益生菌和益生元真的很困惑。”益生菌是活细菌，益生元是喂养它们的纤维。
And I heard him say this on your show, so if anybody saw this show, your podcast with him.
我听到他在你的节目中这么说，所以如果有人看了这个节目，你的播客和他在一起。
He said, "All right, we're just going to humor you and we're going to have a fermented food arm, not just a fiber arm." So we got 18 people to eat as much fiber as humanly possible and 18 people to eat as much fermented food as humanly possible.
他说：“好吧，我们只是想取悦你，我们将拥有发酵食品部门，而不仅仅是纤维部门。”因此，我们让 18 个人吃尽可能多的纤维，让 18 个人吃尽可能多的发酵食品。
And so we didn't actually set an upper limit on these.
所以我们实际上并没有对这些设定上限。
We just said more.
我们只是说了更多。
We're only going to do this study for four weeks of ramp up, so you can get accustomed to this new stuff in your diet, and then six weeks of maintenance, and then we'll even go back four weeks later after the study ends and see how you're doing.
我们只会进行四个星期的强化研究，这样你就可以习惯饮食中的这些新东西，然后进行六周的维持，然后我们甚至会在研究结束后四个星期后返回，看看你的表现如何。
And we will look at the microbiome to see if we can change the diversity of the microbiome, the characteristic of the microbes that are in there.
我们将研究微生物组，看看是否可以改变微生物组的多样性，即微生物的特征。
And we'll go to this human immune monitoring center that Mark Davis, an immunologist, runs at Stanford, and we'll look at multiple measures of inflammation.
我们将前往免疫学家马克·戴维斯在斯坦福大学运营的人体免疫监测中心，我们将研究多种炎症指标。
So we did it.
所以我们做到了。
We got the people randomized to fermented food who previously had been eating less than half a serving a day to get six servings a day on average.
我们让那些以前每天吃不到半份的人被随机分配到发酵食品，现在平均每天吃六份。
And I will pause just for a moment there in case that seems obscene.
我会在这里暂停一会儿，以防这看起来很淫秽。
So picture that one bottle of kombucha that I have right under the table here is two servings.
想象一下，我在桌子下面放的一瓶康普茶是两份。
It's only 50 calories.
热量只有 50 卡路里。
And a serving of sauerkraut or kimchi is likewise very few calories.
一份酸菜或泡菜的热量也很少。
It's mostly just cabbage.
大部分只是卷心菜。
So actually, six servings a day was about 300 calories a day.
所以实际上，每天六份大约相当于每天 300 卡路里热量。
It's not like most of their food was fermented.
他们的大部分食物并不是发酵的。
But given that they hadn't eaten any fermented food hardly at all before, six servings a day was a lot.
但考虑到他们之前几乎没有吃过发酵食品，一天六份已经很多了。
Yogurt, kefir, kombucha, kimchi, and sauerkraut.
酸奶、开菲尔、康普茶、泡菜和酸菜。
Those are the five main things.
这是五个主要的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Low sugar fermented foods.
低糖发酵食品。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In my opinion.
在我看来。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yes, sure.
是的，当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've tacked low sugar onto it because-
我加了低糖，因为-
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Good, sure
好，当然
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
when people hear fermented food, they go, "Oh, yogurt, yum.
当人们听到发酵食品时，他们会说：“哦，酸奶，好吃。
Cherry sugar flavored."
樱桃糖味的。”
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Plain yogurt.
原味酸奶。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
There you go.
就这样吧。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Plain yogurt.
原味酸奶。
So of these, we actually looked at 90 different inflammatory markers, because that's where the field is.
因此，我们实际上研究了 90 种不同的炎症标记物，因为这就是该领域的所在。
We could go to inflammation as a whole separate topic if you want.
如果您愿意，我们可以将炎症作为一个单独的主题来讨论。
Twenty of the inflammatory markers dropped and got better in the fermented food group.
在发酵食品组中，有 20 种炎症标记物下降并有所好转。
When we went to the fiber group...
当我们去纤维组的时候...
Oh, plus, I'm sorry.
哦，另外，我很抱歉。
Wait, this is super important.
等等，这非常重要。
Their microbial diversity increased.
它们的微生物多样性增加了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is a good thing.
这是一件好事。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Not always, but if it's the good microbes that are increasing, that's a good thing.
情况并非总是如此，但如果有益微生物在增加，那是一件好事。
But the other funny thing is the Sonnenburg lab was concerned that the only thing that was increasing, or they wanted to characterize it.
但另一件有趣的事情是，索南堡实验室担心唯一正在增加的东西，或者他们想描述它的特征。
Are the microbes coming from the foods they're eating?
微生物来自他们所吃的食物吗？
So they went and bought all the different foods that people were eating and characterized them, and the majority of microbes contributing to the increased diversity were not in the foods that they were buying.
因此，他们购买了人们正在吃的所有不同食物并对其进行了表征，而导致多样性增加的大多数微生物并不存在于他们购买的食物中。
So this is a little side statement that they made in the paper.
这是他们在论文中所做的一点旁白。
Wow, this is super cool.
哇，这太酷了。
When you change the milieu of the environment of the gut microbiome, you might actually see some microbes appear that you weren't even feeding them.
当您改变肠道微生物组的环境时，您实际上可能会看到一些微生物出现，而您甚至没有喂养它们。
They might've been in such small concentrations that when you change that gut environment, some of them bloom that you didn't even know were there.
它们的浓度可能非常小，以至于当你改变肠道环境时，其中一些会大量繁殖，而你甚至不知道它们的存在。
So it's very fascinating that the microbial diversity increased.
因此，微生物多样性的增加是非常令人着迷的。
The markers of inflammation decreased.
炎症标志物减少。
Great, it's like a clinical outcome benefit.
太好了，这就像临床结果的好处。
And on the fiber side, the microbiome diversity didn't increase, and as a whole, the inflammatory markers didn't change.
在纤维方面，微生物组多样性没有增加，总体而言，炎症标志物没有改变。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And in some cases, as I recall, they even increased.
我记得，在某些情况下，它们甚至还增加了。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Increased.
增加了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
So part of that was fascinating because what they did is they said, "Ah, God, this is all that mouse study stuff.
所以其中一部分很有趣，因为他们所做的是他们说，“啊，上帝，这就是老鼠研究的全部内容。
We thought the fiber was going to be the only one who won.
我们认为纤维将是唯一获胜的。
Christopher, we were only humoring you that the fermented foods would have an impact.
克里斯托弗，我们只是开玩笑说发酵食品会产生影响。
We thought it was going to be all fiber.
我们认为它将是全纤维的。
Now we got to...
现在我们必须...
God, we are scratching our heads here.
天哪，我们在这里摸不着头脑。
Let's see what we can figure out." And they actually separated the 18 people into roughly three groups of six, and they said, "Let's look at the data in a little more detail, and let's see if we can see anything." There's a range of response in the inflammatory markers.
让我们看看我们能弄清楚什么。”他们实际上将这 18 个人大致分成三组，每组六人，然后他们说：“让我们更详细地查看数据，看看我们是否能看到任何东西。”炎症标记物有一系列反应。
Some got worse, but some did get better.
有些人变得更糟，但有些人确实变得更好。
But that's why you do multiple people, you see if it cancels out.
但这就是为什么你要和多人一起做，你看看它是否会抵消。
In the study, we wanted to see the average difference.
在这项研究中，我们希望看到平均差异。
But they looked at what might be predictors of those differences, and the key factor that came out was the baseline microbial diversity And so the idea here was that people who had low diversity, like a compromised Western diet, depleted diversity, when they stuffed all that fiber down their gullet, they actually had an adverse reaction to it.
但他们研究了这些差异的预测因素，得出的关键因素是微生物多样性的基线。所以这里的想法是，多样性低的人，比如西方饮食妥协，多样性耗尽，当他们把所有纤维塞进喉咙时，他们实际上会对它产生不良反应。
It's like fire hose of fiber, can't handle this, going to actually have more of an inflammatory response to that, not less.
它就像纤维消防水带，无法处理这个问题，实际上会产生更多而不是更少的炎症反应。
But the people with the highest microbial diversity at baseline were more like the fermented food folks, and they had a benefit.
但基线时微生物多样性最高的人更像是发酵食品的人，而且他们也受益匪浅。
And so this is where I thought they were brilliant in writing this paper, is that what they said was sort of from a general population standpoint, fermented foods are good.
所以这就是我认为他们写这篇论文的精彩之处，他们所说的是从一般人群的角度来看，发酵食品是好的。
No matter whether they're eating the yogurt or the kimchi or the sauerkraut, because not everybody ate the same proportions of the different things.
无论他们吃的是酸奶、泡菜还是酸菜，因为并不是每个人都吃相同比例的不同食物。
It's like across the whole group, the benefits were clear.
就整个团队而言，好处是显而易见的。
The fiber was much more nuanced, and this is more like a personalized nutrition thing.
纤维更加细致，这更像是一种个性化的营养。
So one was a general health recommendation, and one was, if you're going to go for more fiber, you might need to make sure your microbial diversity is up first.
因此，一个是一般健康建议，另一个是，如果您要摄入更多纤维，您可能需要首先确保微生物多样性得到提高。
That might be part of what we have to figure out or warn the people with a compromised or depleted microbial diversity that you won't do well right now with more microbes.
这可能是我们必须弄清楚的一部分，或者警告那些微生物多样性受损或耗尽的人们，现在如果有更多的微生物，你就不会做得很好。
Super fun paper to work on.
超级有趣的论文。
A geeky science thing because I know you're a data science guy, that's fun.
这是一个极客科学的事情，因为我知道你是一个数据科学家，这很有趣。
The primary outcome for that study was the cytokine response score.
该研究的主要结果是细胞因子反应评分。
So in the world of inflammation, nobody has a single thing that they all like, not C-reactive protein, not interleukin 6, not trimethylamine oxide.
因此，在炎症的世界中，没有人拥有自己都喜欢的单一物质，不是 C 反应蛋白、不是白细胞介素 6、不是三甲胺氧化物。
There's all kinds of things floating out there, but there isn't one that clinicians agree on and measure in the clinic.
那里有各种各样的事情，但临床医生没有达成一致意见并在诊所进行测量。
So Mark Davis had found this sort of cluster of 14 different things in a paper that they found looking within that population, they said maybe people should be looking at the cytokine response score.
因此，Mark Davis 在一篇论文中发现了这种由 14 种不同事物组成的集群，他们在该人群中进行了研究，他们说也许人们应该关注细胞因子反应评分。
And then on clinicaltrials.gov, we said that's our primary outcome and we're going to look at all this other stuff.
然后在 ClinicalTrials.gov 上，我们说这是我们的主要结果，我们将研究所有其他内容。
And in the cell paper, cytokine response score didn't change.
在细胞纸中，细胞因子反应评分没有变化。
And since then, Mark Davis has kind of abandoned this score because it hasn't been reproduced in other populations.
从那时起，马克·戴维斯就放弃了这个分数，因为它还没有在其他人群中重现。
But I think it's really interesting from a paper publishing point of view that the reviewers caught it.
但我认为从论文出版的角度来看，审稿人发现了这一点真的很有趣。
They said, "Look, in this paper, your primary outcome didn't change.
他们说：“看，在这篇论文中，你的主要结果没有改变。
All the changes you're seeing are secondary and exploratory." But we kind of admit that you have 90 markers and 20 get better and nothing gets worse, that's probably worth talking about.
你看到的所有变化都是次要的和探索性的。”但我们承认你有 90 个标记，其中 20 个变得更好，没有变得更糟，这可能值得讨论。
So this is how nuanced that is, and the fiber story is nuanced.
这就是其中的微妙之处，纤维的故事也是微妙的。
And it wasn't 100 people, it was 18 people, and we divide them into groups of six.
不是 100 人，而是 18 人，我们将他们分成六人一组。
Very exploratory.
非常具有探索性。
And yet that paper's now been cited 1,000 times.
然而那篇论文现在已经被引用了 1,000 次。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a really influential paper.
这是一篇非常有影响力的论文。
I talk about it as often as I get the opportunity.
只要有机会，我就会经常谈论它。
I think few papers have changed my behavior so radically.
我认为很少有论文能如此彻底地改变我的行为。
We should probably talk about the six servings per day.
我们或许应该谈谈每天六份。
Do you think people can benefit from a couple spoonfuls of-
你认为人们可以从几勺-
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of kimchi or sauerkraut?
泡菜还是酸菜？
By the way, it's got to be the stuff that you need to keep refrigerated.
顺便说一句，它必须是你需要冷藏的东西。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because you can find many things like sauerkraut and kimchi on the, probably more sauerkraut and pickles on the shelf, not refrigerated.
因为你可以在货架上找到很多酸菜和泡菜之类的东西，可能架子上还有更多的酸菜和泡菜，而不是冷藏的。
That's not going to benefit anyone.
这不会给任何人带来好处。
There's no live cultures in there.
那里没有活的文化。
And they're often paired with sugar in the stuff that's kept at room temp.
它们通常与糖一起放在室温下保存的食物中。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
And sodium.
还有钠。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm a fan of salt.
我是盐的粉丝。
I like salt.
我喜欢盐。
I drink enough water.
我喝足够的水。
My blood pressure's low, so I benefit from having salt.
我的血压很低，所以吃盐对我有好处。
I have a lot of family members that unless they get enough salt, they feel a little lightheaded.
我有很多家人，除非摄入足够的盐，否则他们会感到有点头晕。
I think maybe low blood pressure runs in our family a little bit.
我想也许我们家有一点低血压。
So I'm a fan of salt.
所以我是盐的粉丝。
But you make a good point for people with hypertension, they should be cautious about that.
但你对高血压患者提出了很好的观点，他们应该对此保持谨慎。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Got to look out for that.
必须留意这一点。
So an interesting part of this study is, again, because it's a six-week maintenance phase of this thing, we had to make a big difference.
因此，这项研究的一个有趣的部分是，因为这是一个为期六周的维护阶段，我们必须做出重大改变。
So if there's a signal, you don't want to miss a small signal.
因此，如果有信号，您不想错过任何小信号。
So in some of our studies, we kind of exaggerate.
所以在我们的一些研究中，我们有点夸大了。
We go vegan, even though we're not expecting the world to go vegan, we just want them to eat more plants.
我们成为素食主义者，尽管我们并不期望世界成为素食主义者，我们只是希望他们吃更多的植物。
We went to six servings because they were eating a half a serving before.
我们去了六份，因为他们之前吃了半份。
And to just say, "Why don't you double that to one?" It's like, okay, we're not going to get a perturbation of metabolism with one.
只是说，“你为什么不把它加倍到一呢？”就好像，好吧，我们不会受到新陈代谢的干扰。
Let's go to six.
我们去六点吧。
The interesting thing was, four weeks after the study ended, this group of 18 that were eating basically no fermented food at first, were still eating three servings a day.
有趣的是，研究结束四个星期后，这组18人一开始基本上不吃发酵食品，却仍然每天吃三份。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They taste great.
它们味道好极了。
I love low-sugar fermented foods.
我喜欢低糖发酵食品。
They're a little bit costly for many people.
对于许多人来说，它们有点贵。
I'm fortunate that I can afford them, like a really good Bulgarian or Greek yogurt.
我很幸运我买得起它们，就像真正好的保加利亚或希腊酸奶一样。
Kombucha can be expensive.
康普茶可能很贵。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I would say that because many of the listeners, there's a range of disposable income.
我想说的是，因为许多听众的可支配收入都有一定范围。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I will say that most processed foods are actually pretty expensive when you look at what's going into like a latte that you purchase or something like that.
但我要说的是，当你看看你购买的拿铁咖啡或类似的东西时，大多数加工食品实际上都相当昂贵。
Anyway, people love their lattes.
不管怎样，人们喜欢他们的拿铁咖啡。
I'm not trying to take away anyone's lattes.
我并不是想抢走任何人的拿铁咖啡。
But I will say that eating low-sugar fermented food, I strive to do it every day.
但我会说吃低糖发酵食品，我每天都努力去做。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
You ate some before our talk today.
在我们今天演讲之前你吃了一些。
I watched you.
我看着你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I did.
我做到了。
I gulped down some scoops of kimchi.
我吞下了几勺泡菜。
I have it with breakfast sometimes.
我有时会和早餐一起吃。
I have found it has made me feel from a level at digestion, just sort of general feelings of gut feeling nice and happy after a meal.
我发现它让我在消化方面有一种感觉，就像饭后肠道感觉良好和快乐的一般感觉。
But also, and this is correlation, this isn't causation, of course, but just overall levels of energy and immune function.
而且，这是相关性，当然这不是因果关系，而只是能量和免疫功能的总体水平。
I haven't been sick in ages.
我已经很多年没有生过病了。
I do a bunch of other things, but I see significant improvements in my health when I travel.
我做了很多其他事情，但当我旅行时，我发现我的健康状况有了显着改善。
So I have this rule that when I travel, I double down on my health practices.
所以我有一条规则，当我旅行时，我会加倍注意我的健康习惯。
My team knows when we arrive in a city, first thing, I won't eat in a restaurant.
我的团队知道，当我们到达一个城市时，第一件事就是我不会在餐馆吃饭。
I'm finding a Whole Foods and I'm just eating raw foods in my room.
我正在寻找一家全食超市，而我只是在房间里吃生食。
And people always think it's crazy, it's kind of antisocial, but then I can go through an entire meeting or week feeling really, really good.
人们总是认为这很疯狂，有点反社会，但我可以在整个会议或一周中感觉非常非常好。
I never miss workouts when I travel, ever.
当我旅行时，我从来不会错过锻炼。
I believe that when you're at home, you have all these conditions that make sleep easier.
我相信，当您在家时，您拥有所有这些使睡眠更容易的条件。
When you travel, some of the things are outside your control, so control what you can.
当您旅行时，有些事情是您无法控制的，因此请尽可能控制。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Nice.
不错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Anyway, I love the low sugar fermented food thing.
不管怎样，我喜欢低糖发酵食品。
And thank you, and thank Justin for doing that study.
谢谢你，也谢谢贾斯汀所做的这项研究。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Justin and Erica actually did look at that weight loss study, that DietFits, and saw some microbial diversity changes at six months that disappeared at 12.
Justin 和 Erica 实际上确实研究了 DietFits 减肥研究，发现一些微生物多样性在 6 个月时发生了变化，而这些变化在 12 岁时就消失了。
The term that they used that I probably can't explain effectively is residence.
他们使用的术语是居住，我可能无法有效解释。
So if you eat yogurt every day, then that microbe is there because you ate it every day.
因此，如果您每天都吃酸奶，那么这种微生物就会存在，因为您每天都吃它。
But if you stopped, the benefit would probably come if the microbe took up residence and was there without you eating it again, which isn't always the case.
但如果你停下来，如果微生物定居并在那里而你不再吃它，那么好处可能会到来，但情况并非总是如此。
So sometimes you might have to actually eat the yogurt every day.
所以有时你可能必须每天都吃酸奶。
The cooler thing, like a fecal transplant, would be somehow you got somebody to adopt that microbe and take it up regardless of what you eat, and it changed the environment for good.
更酷的事情，就像粪便移植一样，你会以某种方式让某人采用这种微生物，无论你吃什么，都会接受它，它永远改变了环境。
That's another place where the field is still exploring how to help people the most.
这是该领域仍在探索如何最大程度地帮助人们的另一个领域。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I would love for you guys to do a study about low sugar fermented food intake, microbial diversity, and mental health-
我希望你们能做一项关于低糖发酵食物摄入、微生物多样性和心理健康的研究——
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Absolutely
绝对
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
depression symptoms.
抑郁症状。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because everyone hears like 90% of the serotonin is in your gut, the gut is influencing neurotransmitter levels, but I've never seen a quality study.
因为每个人都听说 90% 的血清素都在肠道中，肠道正在影响神经递质水平，但我从未见过高质量的研究。
Maybe I just didn't find it.
也许只是我没找到。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
No, it's a good one.
不，这是一件好事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A quality study of, okay, you eat some low sugar kimchi, or you drink some kombucha and kefir, and you do that five, six servings a day for six weeks and look at depressive symptoms.
一项高质量的研究，好吧，你吃一些低糖泡菜，或者喝一些康普茶和开菲尔，然后每天吃五到六份，持续六周，然后观察抑郁症状。
I would love for that study to be done.
我希望这项研究能够完成。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Love it.
喜欢它。
Yeah.
是的。
We're always looking for new ideas.
我们一直在寻找新的想法。
Thanks.
谢谢。
We'll make you a co-investigator.
我们会让你成为联合调查员。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All right.
好吧。
Well, or-
好吧，或者——
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Consultant
顾问
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
we have a philanthropy arm of this podcast that funds science with a collection of donors through our premium channel that we could talk about offline.
我们在这个播客中有一个慈善部门，通过我们可以在线下谈论的优质渠道与一群捐助者一起资助科学。
But-
但是——
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Bring it
带上它
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
Christopher.
克里斯托弗.
This was awesome.
这太棒了。
I confess I was a little braced for the vegan versus son of an Argentine who likes steak conflict, but we didn't do that.
我承认，我对素食主义者与喜欢牛排的阿根廷人的儿子之间的冲突做好了准备，但我们没有这样做。
Actually, I credit you for navigating this really difficult space that used to be called nutrition, that is now called food patterns, with incredible grace and incredible dedication to figuring out what people can do to make themselves healthier.
事实上，我赞扬你在这个曾经被称为营养、现在被称为食物模式的非常困难的领域中航行，以令人难以置信的优雅和令人难以置信的奉献精神来弄清楚人们可以做些什么来让自己更健康。
It's so clear from today's discussion that you're not trying to ram veganism down people's throats, nor are you disparaging of people's food choices.
从今天的讨论中可以清楚地看出，你并不是想把素食主义强加给人们，也不是贬低人们的食物选择。
You've really highlighted how the food supply and these kind of systemic issues are problematic, but you pointed to some real potential solutions, and I'll be amplifying all of those solutions as broadly as I can because I agree with them.
您确实强调了粮食供应和此类系统性问题是如何存在问题的，但您指出了一些真正潜在的解决方案，我将尽可能广泛地扩大所有这些解决方案，因为我同意它们。
I also love this notion of the protein flip, if I may.
如果可以的话，我也喜欢蛋白质翻转的概念。
Plant-based has got to go.
植物性食品必须被淘汰。
Protein flip is coming in.
蛋白质翻转即将到来。
And I think it's really important that people think not just about what they eat in terms of calories, but in terms of everything from sourcing to how they interact with food.
我认为，非常重要的是，人们不仅要考虑他们所吃的食物的卡路里含量，还要考虑从采购到如何与食物互动的各个方面。
And as you highlighted so beautifully, taste is vital.
正如您如此精美地强调的那样，品味至关重要。
So if this conversation, and others that are sure to stem from it, get people thinking about interacting with their food differently and thereby eating more healthily, that would be great.
因此，如果这次谈话以及其他肯定会由此产生的谈话，让人们思考如何以不同的方式与食物互动，从而吃得更健康，那就太好了。
So thanks for taking time out of your busy schedule, tackling the hardest issue in science, in my opinion, to get your arms around, and coming down here and having a conversation.
因此，感谢您从繁忙的日程中抽出时间，解决科学中最困难的问题，在我看来，伸出援助之手，并来到这里进行对话。
I really enjoyed it.
我真的很喜欢它。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
It was great fun.
非常有趣。
I just love nutrition.
我只是喜欢营养。
It's really complicated, but it doesn't have to be.
这确实很复杂，但其实不必如此。
There can really be a lot more consensus than controversy if you can have this kind of exchange and explain some of the nuance behind it.
如果你能进行这种交流并解释其背后的一些细微差别，那么确实可以达成比争议更多的共识。
And there really is a lot that we don't know.
确实有很多我们不知道的事情。
And so there's room for a lot of different diets out there, and you should find the one that works best for you.
因此，有很多不同的饮食方式可供选择，您应该找到最适合您的一种。
But I hope we can help people with some of the foundational principles, and there are many of them that don't change.
但我希望我们能够帮助人们了解一些基本原则，其中许多原则不会改变。
There are some basics to nutrition, and many people don't follow the basics.
营养有一些基础知识，但许多人没有遵循这些基础知识。
They eat too much crappy food.
他们吃太多垃圾食物。
So let's aspire to eat a healthful, environmentally sound, tasty diet.
因此，让我们渴望健康、环保、美味的饮食。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amen to that.
阿门。
Thanks, Christopher.
谢谢，克里斯托弗。
Dr. Christopher Gardner:
克里斯托弗·加德纳博士：
Pleasure.
很高兴。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Christopher Gardner.
感谢您参加今天与克里斯托弗·加德纳博士的讨论。
To learn more about Dr. Gardner's work and to find links to the various resources we discussed, please see the show note captions.
要了解有关加德纳博士的工作的更多信息并查找我们讨论的各种资源的链接，请参阅节目注释标题。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的关注按钮来关注播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review, and you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您可以给我们留下五星级的评论，现在您可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab Podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客、嘉宾或您希望我考虑在 Huberman 实验室播客中讨论的主题有意见，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body.
它的标题是协议：人体操作手册。
This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience, and it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
这是我花了五年多时间编写的一本书，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验，涵盖了从睡眠到运动到压力控制的各个方面的方案，以及与注意力和动机相关的方案，当然，我还为所包含的方案提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body.
同样，这本书被称为协议：人体操作手册。
And if you're not already following me on social media, I am hubermanlab on all social media platforms, so that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 hubermanlab，包括 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab Podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab Podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。
Again, it's hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
再说一遍，所有社交媒体平台上都是 hubermanlab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available completely zero cost.
所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的菜单选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件。
And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Christopher Gardner.
再次感谢您参加今天与克里斯托弗·加德纳博士的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。
Speaker 4:
演讲者4：
NFL football season is here, which means when you switch to Verizon, it feels like touchdown because you get NFL Sunday Ticket from YouTube on us when you buy an eligible 5G phone on select unlimited plans, which means you can watch every out-of-market game every Sunday afternoon, and it's all on us.
NFL 橄榄球赛季即将到来，这意味着当您转用 Verizon 时，感觉就像触地得分一样，因为当您购买符合条件的 5G 手机并选择无限制套餐时，您就可以从 YouTube 获得 NFL 周日门票，这意味着您可以在每周日下午观看每场市场外的比赛，而这一切都由我们提供。
Now that's the Verizon way to kick off the NFL football season right.
这就是 Verizon 开启 NFL 橄榄球赛季的方式。
Switch and get NFL Sunday Ticket from YouTube on us only with Verizon.
切换并仅通过 Verizon 从 YouTube 获取 NFL 周日门票。