Health Effects & Risks of Kratom, Opioids & Other Natural Occurring Medicines | Dr. Chris McCurdy
Andrew Huberman: Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
Andrew Huberman：欢迎来到 Huberman 实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. Chris McCurdy.
今天我的嘉宾是克里斯·麦柯迪博士。
Dr. Chris McCurdy is a professor of medicinal chemistry at the University of Florida, where he directs research on natural products and their pharmacologic effects.
Chris McCurdy 博士是佛罗里达大学药物化学教授，负责天然产物及其药理作用的研究。
Most recently, the plant derived compound kratom, which is readily sold in the US and around the world, and is now used by tens of millions of people daily, and those numbers are increasing fast.
最近，植物衍生的化合物卡痛叶在美国和世界各地都很畅销，现在每天都有数千万人使用，而且这个数字还在快速增长。
Dr. McCurdy's research focuses on understanding how Kratom interacts with our nervous system and affects our physiology and behavior.
麦柯迪博士的研究重点是了解卡痛如何与我们的神经系统相互作用并影响我们的生理和行为。
He also studies its potential for addiction.
他还研究了其成瘾的可能性。
During today's episode, we discuss the complex effects of Kratom and its relationship to the opioid system.
在今天的节目中，我们讨论卡痛的复杂作用及其与阿片类药物系统的关系。
Dr. McCurdy explains how kratom's active compounds work in the brain, why it shares certain similarities to opioid drugs, and critically how crem products available in the US and elsewhere are largely derivatives and isolates of the crem leaf, which is very different in terms of the effects it produces when compared to the traditional leaf products.
麦柯迪博士解释了卡痛叶的活性化合物如何在大脑中发挥作用，为什么它与阿片类药物有某些相似之处，以及关键的是，美国和其他地方的奶油产品主要是奶油叶的衍生物和分离物，与传统的叶子产品相比，其产生的效果非常不同。
And unfortunately, that has confused and in many cases, harmed consumers.
不幸的是，这让消费者感到困惑，并且在很多情况下伤害了消费者。
So today you'll learn about kratom's effects at different doses and when it's sourced in different ways, you'll learn about how it can be a stimulant, how it can increase focus, how it can be a painkiller, how it can increase euphoria, but also its strong potential for addiction.
因此，今天您将了解卡痛叶在不同剂量下的作用以及它以不同方式来源时的效果，您将了解它如何成为一种兴奋剂，如何提高注意力，如何成为止痛药，如何增加欣快感，以及其强大的成瘾潜力。
You'll also learn what is known about Kratom in terms of its ability to help people transition off traditional opioid drugs.
您还将了解卡痛在帮助人们戒除传统阿片类药物的能力方面的知识。
It has been shown to be effective for that.
事实证明它对此是有效的。
However, we are also going to explain the potential harms of Kratom, in particular in young people whose brains are still developing and in people that don't have a prior opioid addiction.
然而，我们还将解释卡痛的潜在危害，特别是对于大脑仍在发育的年轻人和以前没有阿片类药物成瘾的人。
Our discussion about Kratom also opens up a broader discussion about other plant alkaloids that have medicinal properties, including those found in things like cocoa and a hundred percent chocolate.
我们对卡痛的讨论也引发了对其他具有药用特性的植物生物碱的更广泛的讨论，包括在可可和百分百巧克力等物质中发现的生物碱。
And we discussed the incredible history of soft drinks like Coca-Cola, Pepsi, seven Up, and Dr. Pepper, which believe it, it or not, were originally developed as pharmacologic tools before becoming the ultra popular beverages that we're familiar with today.
我们还讨论了可口可乐、百事可乐、七喜和胡椒博士等软饮料的令人难以置信的历史，不管你信不信，这些软饮料最初是作为药理工具开发的，然后才成为我们今天所熟悉的超流行饮料。
So I realize many people have heard about Kratom, but also many of you perhaps have not.
所以我意识到很多人都听说过卡痛，但也有很多人可能还没有听说过。
What everyone should know, however, is that Kratom products are pretty much everywhere now.
然而，每个人都应该知道的是，卡痛产品现在几乎无处不在。
You can find them in supermarkets, convenient stores online, and they're sold under the pretense of having very specific effects related to energy, pain management or mood.
你可以在超市、网上便利店找到它们，它们以具有与能量、疼痛管理或情绪相关的非常特殊的效果为幌子出售。
But by the end of today's episode, you'll have a thorough understanding of how this plant compound actually works.
但在今天的节目结束时，您将彻底了解这种植物化合物的实际作用原理。
Yes, it's potential effects, but also it's serious risks.
是的，这是潜在的影响，但也是严重的风险。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public in keeping with that theme.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是根据这一主题向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
Today's episode does include sponsors.
今天的节目确实有赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Chris McCurdy.
现在我与克里斯·麦科迪博士进行了讨论。
Dr. Chris McCurdy.
克里斯·麦柯迪博士。
Welcome.
欢迎。
Chris McCurdy: Thank you.
克里斯·麦柯迪：谢谢。
It's really a pleasure to be here.
很高兴来到这里。
Andrew Huberman: I'm excited to have you here because you work on some incredibly interesting compounds, several of which are very controversial, and all of which are impacting health and society in a major way right now, especially in the United States.
Andrew Huberman：我很高兴您能来到这里，因为您正在研究一些非常有趣的化合物，其中一些化合物非常有争议，而所有这些化合物目前都对健康和社会产生重大影响，尤其是在美国。
The most notable of those is Kratom.
其中最引人注目的是卡痛。
I'm guessing some people have heard of Kratom.
我猜有些人听说过卡痛。
I'm guessing some people perhaps have not.
我猜有些人可能还没有。
I'm pretty certain everyone has seen a Kratom product because they are everywhere.
我很确定每个人都见过卡痛产品，因为它们无处不在。
Yeah, but it's often in the fine print.
是的，但它通常以小字印刷。
So could you just tell us what crem is, where it's found in nature and in the United States, and some of it's.
那么您能否告诉我们奶油是什么，在自然界和美国哪里可以找到它，以及其中的一些。
Properties that people take it in order to achieve certain effects and maybe some of it's lesser known properties.
人们为了达到某些效果而服用它的特性，也许还有一些鲜为人知的特性。
So that's a lot of questions.
所以这是很多问题。
So maybe just a general description of Kratom, where it's found and what it does.
所以也许只是卡痛的一般描述，它的发现地点和用途。
Chris McCurdy: Let's just start from the beginning and make it easy.
Chris McCurdy：让我们从头开始，让事情变得简单。
It's, it's a tree that's called Mitro spec, abides botanical name.
它是一棵叫做 Mitrospec 的树，遵循植物学名称。
Um, it's called ream in Southeast Asia, which is where it's native to.
嗯，它在东南亚被称为“ream”，这是它的原产地。
It's actually native to, uh, where Peninsula, Malaysia and Thailand connect.
它实际上原产于，呃，半岛、马来西亚和泰国的连接处。
So at the border of, of those two countries is thought to be ground zero for where this tree species came from.
因此，这两个国家的边界被认为是该树种的来源地归零地。
And in that region it's very rural, it's lots of farmers and lots of outdoor laborers.
那个地区非常乡村，有很多农民和户外劳动者。
And those outdoor laborers chew the leaves, um, in Thailand, or they make, uh, a tea, uh, more technically what we call decoction because they boil the leaves for hours.
那些户外劳动者在泰国咀嚼叶子，或者他们泡茶，更专业地说就是我们所说的汤，因为他们将叶子煮几个小时。
Um, but they'll harvest fresh leaves and boil those leaves and then drink that, just like we would drink a coffee drink in the morning to give them energy, to give them sort of sustainability throughout the day to tolerate that heat, humidity, and very harsh tropical environment.
嗯，但它们会收获新鲜的叶子，煮沸这些叶子，然后喝掉它们，就像我们早上喝咖啡饮料一样，为它们提供能量，让它们全天保持一定的可持续性，以忍受炎热、潮湿和非常恶劣的热带环境。
And it gives them this stamina to make it, make it through the day.
它给了他们耐力，让他们度过这一天。
Um, and that's really what the traditional use has, has always been, uh, more or less for energy and to get through that day.
嗯，这确实是传统用途，一直以来，呃，或多或少都是为了获得能量并度过这一天。
Um, but it also has been used to treat pain.
嗯，但它也被用来治疗疼痛。
It's been used to treat, um, of all things, uh, uh, erectile dysfunction.
它被用来治疗，呃，呃，勃起功能障碍。
It's been said to be nature's sort of Viagra.
据说它是天然的伟哥。
Um, it's used for, um, mood elevation primarily.
嗯，它主要用于，嗯，情绪提升。
Um, and so these, these individuals will, will utilize it, uh, like I said throughout the day, it's a Muslim population in that area, so there's no, uh, alcohol really, and no consumption of alcohol.
嗯，所以这些人会利用它，呃，就像我整天说的那样，该地区有穆斯林人口，所以实际上没有，呃，酒精，也没有饮酒。
Um, and this is sort of a socially lubricating product.
嗯，这是一种社交润滑产品。
Um, and so in the evenings, on Friday, Saturday evenings, the men would generally gather and then increase their consumption of, of the tea, um, just socially, uh, and, and they could get them into a more sedative like effect.
嗯，所以在晚上，周五、周六的晚上，男人们通常会聚集在一起，然后增加茶的饮用量，嗯，只是为了社交，呃，而且，他们可以让他们产生更镇静的效果。
And so there's this always this sort of, um, paradoxical description of, of, uh, Coram or, or as we say in the United States, Krato, um, where you get this stimulant effect at lower doses or, or smaller amounts, and you get this more euphoric or sedative, like opioid like effect, if you will, at higher doses.
所以总是有这种，嗯，对，呃，Coram 或，或者正如我们在美国所说的，Krato，嗯，你在较低剂量或较小剂量下获得这种兴奋作用，并且如果你愿意的话，在较高剂量下你会得到这种更欣快或镇静的效果，就像阿片类药物一样。
And so they, they tend to use that traditionally.
所以他们倾向于传统地使用它。
So they'll, they'll take the, be the benefits of it, um, just like we would use coffee, I think, uh, to, to sort of get us moving in the mornings.
所以他们会，他们会利用它的好处，嗯，就像我们会用咖啡一样，我想，呃，让我们在早上动起来。
That's what they sort of use in those regions.
这就是他们在这些地区使用的方式。
And they move into, um, you know, on the weekend evenings, they'll use it as more of a social, uh, beverage.
他们搬进，嗯，你知道，在周末晚上，他们将把它用作更多的社交饮料。
And so that's where that's been.
这就是事情的经过。
We got interested in it from the standpoint that there were also reports that this could be utilized when they ran out of heroin or raw opium, um, so that they wouldn't go into withdrawals.
我们对此很感兴趣，因为也有报道称，当他们用完海洛因或生鸦片时，可以利用这个，嗯，这样他们就不会戒断。
And so essentially they're already using it.
所以基本上他们已经在使用它了。
They would increase the consumption when they ran out of heroin or opium, and that would stave off withdrawals for them.
当海洛因或鸦片用完时，他们会增加消费，这可以避免他们戒毒。
And that became really interesting to me, uh, as an opioid researcher, a pain researcher, could this be something that, uh, has potential, uh, and, and obviously would have potential in helping with the opioid crisis, uh, that we're in.
这对我来说真的很有趣，呃，作为一名阿片类药物研究人员，一名疼痛研究人员，这是否可能，呃，有潜力，呃，并且，显然有潜力帮助解决我们所处的阿片类药物危机。
And that's, that's kind of what drove us into starting to look at this.
这就是促使我们开始关注这个问题的原因。
Andrew Huberman: I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, David.
Andrew Huberman：我想稍微休息一下，并向我们的赞助商之一 David 表示感谢。
David makes a protein bar, unlike any other.
大卫制作的蛋白质棒与众不同。
It has 28 grams of protein, only 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar.
它含有 28 克蛋白质，仅 150 卡路里，零克糖。
That's right, 28 grams of protein, and 75% of its calories come from protein.
没错，28克蛋白质，它的热量75%来自于蛋白质。
This is 50% higher than the next closest protein bar.
这比第二接近的蛋白质棒高出 50%。
David.
大卫.
Protein bars also taste amazing.
蛋白质棒的味道也很棒。
Even the texture is amazing.
就连质感也令人惊叹。
My favorite bar is the chocolate chip cookie dough, but then again, I also like the new chocolate peanut butter flavor and the chocolate brownie flavor.
我最喜欢的巧克力棒是巧克力饼干面团，但话又说回来，我也喜欢新的巧克力花生酱口味和巧克力布朗尼口味。
Basically, I like all the flavors a lot.
基本上，所有的口味我都很喜欢。
They're all incredibly delicious.
它们都非常美味。
In fact, the toughest challenge is knowing which ones to eat on which days and how many times per day.
事实上，最艰巨的挑战是知道哪一天吃哪些食物以及每天吃多少次。
I limit myself to two per day, but I absolutely love them.
我限制自己每天只能吃两个，但我绝对喜欢它们。
With David, I'm able to get 28 grams of protein in the calories of a snack, which makes it easy to hit my protein goals of one gram of protein per pound of body weight per day, and it allows me to do so without ingesting too many calories.
有了 David，我就能在一份零食的卡路里中获得 28 克蛋白质，这让我很容易达到每天每磅体重 1 克蛋白质的蛋白质目标，而且我可以在不摄入太多卡路里的情况下实现这一目标。
I'll eat a David Protein bar most afternoons as a snack, and I always keep one with me when I'm out of the house or traveling.
大多数下午我都会吃一块大卫蛋白棒作为零食，当我出门在外或旅行时，我总是随身携带一根。
They're incredibly delicious and given that they have 28 grams of protein, they're really satisfying for having just 150 calories.
它们非常美味，而且含有 28 克蛋白质，仅含 150 卡路里热量就已经很令人满意了。
If you'd like to try David, you can go to david protein.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 David，可以访问 david Protein.com/huberman。
Again, that's david protein.com/hub.
再说一遍，这是 david Protein.com/hub。
Today's episode is also brought to us by eight Sleep.
今天的节目也是八眠给我们带来的。
Eight Sleep Makes Smart Mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity.
八睡眠使智能床垫套具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能。
One of the best ways to ensure a great night's sleep is to make sure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct, and that's because in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees, and in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees.
确保睡眠质量的最佳方法之一是确保睡眠环境的温度正确，这是因为为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的体温实际上必须下降约一到三度，而为了醒来时感觉神清气爽、精力充沛，您的体温实际上必须升高约一到三度。
Eight sleep automatically regulates the temperature of your bed throughout the night according to your unique needs.
八睡眠可根据您的独特需求自动调节整个晚上的床温。
Eight Sleep has just launched their latest model.
八睡眠刚刚推出了他们的最新型号。
The POD five and the Pod five has several new important features.
POD 5 和 Pod 5 有几个新的重要功能。
One of these new features is called Autopilot.
这些新功能之一称为自动驾驶仪。
Autopilot is an AI engine that learns your sleep patterns to adjust the temperature of your sleeping environment across different sleep stages.
Autopilot 是一款人工智能引擎，可以学习您的睡眠模式，以调整不同睡眠阶段的睡眠环境温度。
It also elevates your head if you're snoring, and it makes other shifts to optimize your sleep.
如果您打鼾，它还会抬高您的头部，并进行其他转换以优化您的睡眠。
The base on the pod five also has an integrated speaker that syncs to the eight sleep app and can play audio to support relaxation and recovery.
Pod 5 的底座还配有一个集成扬声器，可与 8 号睡眠应用程序同步，并可以播放音频以支持放松和恢复。
The audio catalog includes several NSDR non-LEP depressed scripts that I worked on with eight.
音频目录包括几个 NSDR 非 LEP 压抑脚本，我用了八个脚本。
Sleep to Record.
睡觉录音。
If you're not familiar.
如果你不熟悉的话。
NSDR involves listening to an audio script that walks you through a deep body relaxation, combined with some very simple breathing exercises.
NSDR 包括聆听音频脚本，引导您进行深度身体放松，并结合一些非常简单的呼吸练习。
It's an extremely powerful tool that anyone can benefit from the first time and every time.
这是一个极其强大的工具，任何人第一次和每次都可以从中受益。
If you'd like to try eight sleep, go to eight sleep.com/huberman to get up to $350 off the new pod.
如果您想尝试 8 sleep，请访问 8 sleep.com/huberman，新 pod 最高可享受 350 美元的优惠。
Five eight sleep ships to many countries worldwide, including Mexico and the Uua e.
五艘八艘睡眠船前往世界各地许多国家，包括墨西哥和乌阿 e。
Again, that's eight sleep.com/huberman to save up to $350 when we see a crem product in the United States, and I realize there are a variety of those, but, um, let's just take for example, I'm aware of, uh, a product that's very popular nowadays.
再说一次，当我们在美国看到一款面霜产品时，八个 sleep.com/huberman 最多可以节省 350 美元，我意识到有各种各样的产品，但是，嗯，让我们举个例子，我知道，呃，一种现在非常流行的产品。
It's a small blue bottle.
这是一个蓝色的小瓶子。
Um, it includes kava and Kratom, right as its primary ingredients.
嗯，它的主要成分是卡瓦和卡痛。
I have zero financial relationship to this company.
我与这家公司的财务关系为零。
I actually had the opportunity to be an early investor, uh, turned it down.
我其实有机会成为早期投资者，呃，拒绝了。
Um, when somebody takes a bottle of that, when they drink a bottle of that, how concentrated and how much kratom are they getting compared to, say the typical adult user in Malaysia who drinks, I don't know what a mug of this concoction.
嗯，当有人喝一瓶那个时，当他们喝一瓶那个时，他们得到的浓度和卡痛叶量与马来西亚典型的饮酒成人使用者相比，我不知道一杯这种混合物有多大。
Um, are they comparable?
嗯，他们有可比性吗？
Um, are they even the same compound?
嗯，它们是同一种化合物吗？
Can we think about them the same way?
我们能以同样的方式思考它们吗？
Because this is very much in my mind, uh, like comparing, um.
因为这在我心里很重要，呃，就像比较，嗯。
Smoked cannabis.
吸食大麻。
Uh, let's just say there is no typical variety, but, um, compared to a highly concentrated, uh, uh, THC tincture, for instance, yes, I mean the same chemical structure, but at some point the pharmacokinetics changes and you're basically looking at different brain circuits, different bodily organs gauges, like kind of different experience altogether.
呃，我们只是说没有典型的品种，但是，嗯，与高度浓缩的，呃，呃，四氢大麻酚酊剂相比，是的，我的意思是相同的化学结构，但在某些时候药代动力学会发生变化，你基本上会看到不同的大脑回路，不同的身体器官指标，就像完全不同的体验。
Chris McCurdy: Correct.
克里斯·麦柯迪：正确。
And I, and I think it's important distinction to make at the outset of this is that, you know, what I described as the traditional use is, is freshly picked leaves that day.
我，我认为一开始就要做的重要区别是，你知道，我所描述的传统用途是当天新鲜采摘的叶子。
They're either chewing them directly when they pull it off the tree or they're brewing this decoction right away.
他们要么从树上取下来时直接咀嚼它们，要么立即煮汤。
Um, in the, in the United States and in the western world, it's a very different product from day one because it's a dried leaf material, um, that's been exposed to the air, the sun, whatever environmental factors are there, plus shipping it all the way across the world from Indonesia, which is the primary country where most of this has grown.
嗯，在美国和西方世界，它是一种与第一天非常不同的产品，因为它是一种干燥的叶子材料，嗯，它暴露在空气、阳光下，无论存在什么环境因素，再加上它从印度尼西亚一路运输到世界各地，印度尼西亚是其中大部分种植的主要国家。
Um, the last I heard a year ago was there's about 250,000, um, CRE farmers in, in Indonesia that are producing and exporting, um, raw materials, uh, around the globe, but primarily to United States.
嗯，我一年前最后一次听到的是，印度尼西亚大约有 250,000 名 CRE 农民正在生产和出口原材料，嗯，遍布全球，但主要出口到美国。
So.
所以。
That leaf material comes in, and then leaf material has been ground and put into capsules, put into, um, various products, even just powdered product, uh, where people will use tablespoons of powder and, you know, couple grams of powder in their, in their warm water or, or however they'd like to do.
叶子材料进来，然后叶子材料被磨碎并放入胶囊中，放入嗯，各种产品，甚至只是粉状产品，呃，人们会在他们的温水中或他们想要的任何方式中使用汤匙粉末，你知道，几克粉末。
Um, so it, it's an interesting product because that's as close to the traditional use that you can get in, in the western world, right?
嗯，所以它是一个有趣的产品，因为它最接近西方世界的传统用途，对吗？
Because you're, you're still using leaf, you're ingesting it, um, or, or you're making a tea from it.
因为你仍在使用叶子，你正在摄入它，嗯，或者，你正在用它泡茶。
Water is the worst, uh, least efficient extractor of chemicals mm-hmm.
水是最差的，呃，效率最低的化学物质提取器——嗯。
Out of a, a plant material.
出于一种，一种植物材料。
And even if we don't make a tea out of it, if we just take the leaf material internally, our body has to work incredibly hard to pull those active ingredients out of the plant material.
即使我们不用它泡茶，如果我们只是将叶子材料摄入内部，我们的身体也必须非常努力地工作才能从植物材料中提取这些活性成分。
So it's a, it's a active process for us as humans or as, uh, animals.
所以对于我们人类或者呃动物来说，这是一个积极的过程。
If we wanna talk about the animal research too, and where we've learned most all of this from that, that our body has to work hard to get that into our system.
如果我们也想谈论动物研究，以及我们从中学到的大部分内容，我们的身体必须努力工作才能将其纳入我们的系统。
Now you take that leaf material and then you do something like you mentioned, put it into a tonic or you put it into a concentrate form, uh, or an extract.
现在你取出叶子材料，然后做你提到的那样的事情，将其放入补品中，或者将其放入浓缩物中，呃，或提取物中。
And now the compounds have been already.
现在化合物已经存在了。
Pulled out of the leaf material by the, the, the solvent or the liquid that's being utilized, whether it's ethanol or it's, uh, oil or some other, some other type of, uh, vehicle.
通过正在使用的溶剂或液体从叶子材料中提取出来，无论是乙醇还是呃油或其他一些其他类型的媒介。
I think in the product you mentioned is pineapple juice, which again, is not as efficient as something like oil or, or a solvent would be.
我认为你提到的产品是菠萝汁，它的效率不如油或溶剂之类的东西。
But you start to pull these compounds into that liquid instead of our body having to pull it out of the leaf, it's already out of the leaf.
但是你开始将这些化合物拉入液体中，而不是我们的身体必须将其从叶子中拉出，它已经从叶子中拉出来了。
Now we can ingest that and those compounds are absorbed much faster into our body, into our system.
现在我们可以摄入这些化合物，这些化合物会更快地吸收到我们的身体和我们的系统中。
And it totally changes the dynamics of what our body is exposed to, um, from that sort of more traditional based product.
它完全改变了我们身体所接触的动态，嗯，从那种更传统的产品中。
And this is also where we feel that things have become problematic.
而这也是我们觉得事情变得有问题的地方。
And so if we go back to Paracelsus and, you know, hundreds years ago talking about the poison is in the dose, um, where we, where we've seen somewhat, um, non-problematic use, I would say the majority of non-problematic use is with that leaf material, more of that closer to traditional use.
因此，如果我们回到帕拉塞尔苏斯，你知道，数百年前谈论的毒药是在剂量中，嗯，我们在某种程度上看到了，嗯，没有问题的用途，我想说，大多数没有问题的用途是使用那种叶子材料，更接近传统用途。
But as you start to make these concentrates and extracts and, and, and now isolates, which are even a whole nother discussion because they're no longer even CRE products.
但当你开始生产这些浓缩物和提取物，以及现在的分离物时，这甚至是一个完全不同的讨论，因为它们甚至不再是 CRE 产品。
Um.
嗯。
You, you start to move ever so far across that spectrum, and I like to equate it to the, the alcohol world where we talk about seltzers or light beers being, um, more comparable in an alcohol beverage to that traditional use of kratom.
你，你开始跨越这个范围，我喜欢把它等同于酒精世界，我们谈论苏打水或淡啤酒，嗯，在酒精饮料中与卡痛叶的传统用途更具可比性。
Whereas we get to things like almost pure alcohol ever clear, 190 proof, 95% alcohol.
而我们的酒精度数几乎是纯净的，酒精度为 190，酒精度为 95%。
Now you're talking about these isolate products.
现在您正在谈论这些分离产品。
And we have products in the, in the alcohol industry through that whole span, but we've classified all of them.
我们在整个酒精行业都有产品，但我们已经对所有这些产品进行了分类。
We don't call them.
我们不打电话给他们。
Alcohol in general, will will define them.
一般来说，酒精会定义它们。
Beer, wine, you a beer, wine craft.
啤酒、葡萄酒，你是啤酒、葡萄酒的工艺。
Beer cider.
啤酒苹果酒。
Yeah.
是的。
And, and it's the spirits.
而且，这就是精神。
And then it's a very fortified, um, beverages.
然后它是一种非常强化的饮料。
And so we don't have that delineation in the, in the kratom space.
所以我们在 kratom 空间中没有这样的描述。
And so all crem products get dumped into a single bucket.
因此，所有奶油产品都被倾倒到一个桶中。
And so whether or not it's a benign product or something that's highly, highly concentrated, um, and I shouldn't say benign, but you know, something that is much more close to that traditional use, that you're not gonna have a risk of getting a great exposure when you take some of it versus, uh, a shot that might be 15 milliliters and it tells you on the bottle it's nine servings, but nobody reads that part and just downs the entire bottle.
因此，无论它是良性产品还是高度、高度浓缩的产品，嗯，我不应该说是良性的，但你知道，更接近传统用途的东西，当你服用一些产品时，你不会有暴露的风险，而呃，一瓶可能是 15 毫升，它在瓶子上告诉你有九份，但没有人读到这部分，然后就把整瓶喝下去。
Andrew Huberman: Is that what we're talking about when we talk about this little blue, little blue bottle?
安德鲁·休伯曼：当我们谈论这个蓝色的小蓝色瓶子时，这就是我们所谈论的吗？
So, no,
所以，不，
Chris McCurdy: the little blue bottle is more, it actually is more similar in terms of what is dosed in there to a traditional exposure of a beverage.
Chris McCurdy：小蓝瓶更多，实际上它的剂量与传统的饮料暴露更相似。
So one bottle.
所以一瓶。
Andrew Huberman: One
安德鲁·休伯曼：一
Chris McCurdy: bottle.
克里斯·麦柯迪：瓶子。
One
一
Andrew Huberman: bottle.
安德鲁·休伯曼：瓶子。
I say one bottle.
我说一瓶。
Yeah.
是的。
And forgive me for interrupting, because about a year and a half ago.
请原谅我打扰，因为大约一年半前。
I ran into a friend and, um, his assistant, she came running out and knowing what I do, she said, Hey, do you know about this like little blue bottle product?
我遇到了一个朋友，嗯，他的助手，她跑了出来，知道我做什么，她说，嘿，你知道这个像小蓝瓶产品吗？
And I, I said, yeah, I've seen it, not tried it.
我，我说，是的，我见过，但没有尝试过。
And, um, why?
而且，嗯，为什么？
What do you think?
你怎么认为？
And she said, well, I, I liked it because I drank one, but now I'm drinking six a day and I can't seem to whittle it back.
她说，嗯，我，我喜欢它，因为我喝了一杯，但现在我每天喝六杯，而且我似乎无法减少它。
Like when I went to three, I did not feel well.
就像我去三点的时候，我感觉不舒服。
Headaches feel.
感觉头疼。
Yeah.
是的。
Anxiety, not well, it was how, basically how she described it.
焦虑，不太好，这就是她描述的，基本上就是这样。
Yeah.
是的。
And, um, I said, well, sounds like either addictive or, or habit forming.
而且，嗯，我说，好吧，听起来要么是上瘾，要么是习惯形成。
And I don't know where she's at with that, but this seems very common.
我不知道她对此有何看法，但这似乎很常见。
People start with one, not unlike nicotine patch pouches, right, right.
人们从一个开始，就像尼古丁贴片袋一样，对，对。
Uh, start with three milligrams and they're up to six milligrams, and then pretty soon it's a tin a day or a canister a day.
呃，从三毫克开始，增加到六毫克，然后很快就变成每天一罐或每天一罐。
So, um, one bottle of that, uh, of crem kava, that's a, it's comparable to the, to the plant use.
所以，嗯，一瓶，呃，卡瓦酒，它与植物用途相当。
Chris McCurdy: I think, if I remember right, a bottle is two servings.
克里斯·麦柯迪：我想，如果我没记错的话，一瓶是两份。
So we've tested, we've tested almost every single product in the marketplace and we've analyzed it for the content of alkaloids to see what's, what's there and what they consider a serving.
因此，我们进行了测试，我们测试了市场上几乎所有的产品，并分析了其生物碱的含量，看看有什么、有什么以及他们认为的一份。
Um, but if we only look at a serving, they're pretty much all equivalent.
嗯，但如果我们只看份量，它们几乎都是相同的。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Again, it's what's in that bottle, right?
再说一次，这就是那个瓶子里的东西，对吗？
Is it one serving two servings, nine servings, 15 servings in a single bottle?
一瓶是1份、2份、9份、15份吗？
So.
所以。
Most people aren't gonna look at it from the standpoint of, Hey, I've got, I've got this bottle here, which is actually smaller than the, the blue bottle.
大多数人不会从这样的角度看待它，嘿，我有，我这里有这个瓶子，它实际上比蓝色瓶子小。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
But it's, it's 10 times more servings.
但事实上，份量是原来的 10 倍。
Right?
正确的？
And so if you're used to consuming that blue bottle all at once, which is two servings, I think, than if you pick up one of those bottles that's 15 servings and you concern the whole thing at once, you're, you're getting a much greater exposure immediately.
因此，如果你习惯于一次喝完那个蓝瓶装（两份量），我想，如果你拿起其中一瓶 15 份量的瓶子，然后你立即关注整个事情，那么你会立即获得更大的暴露。
And it's in a much easier vehicle for our body to, um, welcome those compounds in, if you will.
如果你愿意的话，它是我们的身体更容易欢迎这些化合物的载体。
So it, it, it becomes a very, very slippery slope in my opinion, um, um, with these different products that are out there in the marketplace.
所以，在我看来，市场上有这些不同的产品，它变得非常非常滑坡。
And so if, if someone is not paying attention to what the actual serving is supposed to be, then this is where problems become.
因此，如果有人不注意实际的服务应该是什么，那么这就是问题所在。
And the other thing I would add to that is.
我要补充的另一件事是。
That a lot of times, and I've seen this, I've, I've stopped in, um, of all places I stopped at a Murphy USA gas station.
很多次，我见过这个，我，我停过，嗯，我停过的所有地方都是美国墨菲加油站。
Walmart's gas station, and they had, uh, CRE energy shots right next to the five hour energy shots.
沃尔玛的加油站，他们在五个小时的能量注射旁边还有，呃，CRE 能量注射。
And so if, if you were in a hurry and you weren't even paying attention, you might accidentally grab something that you thought was a five hour energy shot, right?
所以，如果你很匆忙，甚至没有注意，你可能会不小心抓住一些你认为是五小时能量注射的东西，对吗？
And suddenly you and I, I took, I, you normally take two of those and I do it right back, back and throw 'em right back.
突然间，你和我，我拿了，我，你通常拿了其中两个，然后我就向后，向后，把它们扔回去。
And, um, so if you, if you get these, and generally what we worry about is kids getting these right and getting these, and then taking a, a shot, a whole bottle, uh, which may be multiple servings.
而且，嗯，所以如果你，如果你得到这些，通常我们担心的是孩子们正确地得到这些，然后喝一瓶，一瓶，呃，这可能是多份。
And, and they don't feel anything right away.
而且，他们并没有立即感觉到任何东西。
And somebody told them, you're gonna get high from this.
有人告诉他们，你会因此而兴奋。
You, you can't believe it, but you'll get high from this thing you can buy in the gas station.
你，你简直不敢相信，但你会因为这个在加油站能买到的东西而感到兴奋。
And then they don't feel anything.
然后他们就没有任何感觉了。
And then suddenly they have another one, right?
然后突然他们又多了一个，对吧？
And then all of it gets absorbed and hits them harder, almost all at once.
然后所有的能量都会被吸收，并且几乎同时对他们造成更大的打击。
You can think of it like if you sat down and you drank a light beer and you drank that 12 ounce beer, um, in, in a short period of time, just you, you could really drink it fast.
你可以想象一下，如果你坐下来，喝了一杯淡啤酒，你喝了那12盎司的啤酒，嗯，在很短的时间内，只有你，你真的可以喝得很快。
You're not gonna get very much alcohol exposure because there's only 3.5% in that 12 ounces.
您不会接触太多酒精，因为 12 盎司中仅含有 3.5%。
But if you sit down and you do three shots of tequila.
但如果你坐下来喝三杯龙舌兰酒。
In a row in that same timeframe, your body is getting exposed to significantly more alcohol in that timeframe.
在同一时间范围内，您的身体连续暴露于明显更多的酒精中。
And that's what, that's what our concerns are around some of these products.
这就是我们对其中一些产品的担忧。
And so when you look at the specific serving, yeah, they, they dial it in to say, yep, this is what, uh, is comparable to a traditional full glass of tea.
所以当你看具体的服务时，是的，他们拨通说，是的，这就是，呃，相当于传统的整杯茶。
Um, but, but they're, they're very, very concentrated.
嗯，但是，但是他们非常非常集中。
And now, as I mentioned, you know, moving, moving outside of this space into semi synthetics and products that are no longer creto products are no longer traceable back to the plant material.
现在，正如我所提到的，你知道，走出这个空间进入半合成产品，不再是克里托产品的产品不再可以追溯到植物材料。
They're actually semi synthetically produced.
它们实际上是半合成生产的。
That means they're chemically modified, um, into other things that they're calling in some cases crem product.
这意味着它们经过化学修饰，嗯，变成了其他东西，在某些情况下被称为奶油产品。
Again, this is that trash can, or they're actually calling them crem derived products.
再说一次，这就是垃圾桶，或者他们实际上称它们为奶油衍生产品。
Andrew Huberman: Two things that I'm taking from what you've said thus far is that anyone considering crem products of any kind.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我从您到目前为止所说的内容中得出的两件事是，任何人都在考虑任何类型的乳霜产品。
Needs to carefully consider serving size.
需要仔细考虑份量。
And it's, uh, interesting that those small bottles, and frankly the packaging of most, uh, things is pretty small.
有趣的是，那些小瓶子，坦率地说，大多数东西的包装都非常小。
Yeah.
是的。
And, uh, I don't think it's just my age.
而且，呃，我不认为这只是我的年龄。
Uh, you need a compound microscope to, to read some of the, the print, like literally fine print has become so fine that, that, that I think it's below the, the threshold of a, of a, you know, a air force, um, fighter pilot's, uh, high acuity vision, the, the 2015.
呃，你需要一个复合显微镜来读取一些印刷品，就像字面意义上的小印刷品一样，已经变得如此精细，以至于我认为它低于一个，一个，你知道，空军，嗯，战斗机飞行员的，呃，高敏锐度视力，2015年的阈值。
So in all seriousness, you need to look at the serving size and, and know how many servings are in there.
因此，严肃地说，您需要查看份量，并了解其中有多少份。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
So check serving size.
因此，请检查份量。
And the other thing is, uh, to look for kratom derived or crem extracted versus actual creto plant product.
另一件事是，呃，寻找卡痛叶提取物或奶油提取物与实际的克里托植物产品。
Right.
正确的。
Because while we're not recommending usage here, there are a number of people using these products.
因为虽然我们不建议在这里使用，但有很多人在使用这些产品。
There are a number of people that are going to use these products.
有很多人将使用这些产品。
We just have to be honest about that.
我们必须诚实地对待这一点。
And I think it's very important to understand how to navigate this space.
我认为了解如何驾驭这个空间非常重要。
'cause as you've pointed out, it's not one thing.
因为正如你所指出的，这不是一回事。
It's just not.
事实并非如此。
And, um, maybe just for the moment, let's step back in light of that.
而且，嗯，也许只是暂时，让我们退后一步考虑这一点。
And let me just ask, you said earlier that when people use the plant at lower dosages, it's a bit of a stimulant.
让我问一下，您之前说过，当人们以较低剂量使用该植物时，它有点兴奋剂。
Right.
正确的。
It might even have some aphrodisiac, um, qualities to it.
它甚至可能有一些催情的，嗯，特性。
Right.
正确的。
Which suggests to me I'm not a, a medicinal chemist as you are, but suggests that there might be some dopaminergic, um, maybe some cholinergic, maybe some vasodilation activity given the aphrodisiac part, et cetera.
这对我来说，我不是一个像你一样的药物化学家，但表明可能有一些多巴胺能，嗯，可能有一些胆碱能，可能有一些血管舒张活性，比如春药部分，等等。
Okay.
好的。
Um, but then in higher doses it starts to become more of a sedative.
嗯，但剂量较高时，它开始变得更像镇静剂。
Chris McCurdy: Yeah.
克里斯·麦柯迪：是的。
Andrew Huberman: When people take kratom derivatives or these, uh, more manufactured or processed creto products in the United States, the small blue bottle, let's say one or two servings or, um, the, the ones that are in the energy shot, let's say they take one or two servings, which would be basically a, a quarter of a sip of one of those little thimble sized things.
安德鲁·休伯曼：当人们服用卡痛叶衍生物或这些，呃，在美国更多制造或加工的克里托产品时，小蓝瓶，比方说一两份，或者，嗯，能量注射中的那些，比方说他们服用一两份，这基本上是一小口顶针大小的东西的四分之一。
Are they seeking the stimulant aphrodisiac effect or do you think that most, do we have any data rather as to whether or not users in the US are really going for that kind of set sedative numbing out effect?
他们是在寻求刺激性的催情效果，还是您认为大多数人，我们是否有任何数据来证明美国的用户是否真的想要那种既定的镇静麻木效果？
Because those are two very different things.
因为这是两件截然不同的事情。
Very,
非常、
Chris McCurdy: very different.
克里斯·麦柯迪：非常不同。
And, and I don't think we have good, strong definitive data.
而且，我认为我们没有良好、有力的明确数据。
So I will say that, um, with my colleague, uh, Dr. Kirsten Smith at Johns Hopkins, um, and, and others on our team, we've done pretty extensive serving of, of users, um, these users.
所以我想说，嗯，与我的同事，呃，约翰·霍普金斯大学的 Kirsten Smith 博士，嗯，以及我们团队的其他人，我们已经为用户，嗯，这些用户提供了相当广泛的服务。
You know, volunteer themselves into the studies.
你知道，自愿参加研究。
So I think we have to, we have to look at that from a standpoint of, you know, we're not, we're not just putting out random people on the street and asking them questions.
所以我认为我们必须，我们必须从这样的角度来看待这个问题，你知道，我们不是，我们不只是把随机的人放在街上问他们问题。
These are people that choose to answer.
这些是选择回答的人。
Uh, but what we found in the largest study that we've done to date is most users are using it in a very responsible, um, and directed way where they're not using it to get this high or euphoria or, or sedative feel
呃，但是我们在迄今为止所做的最大规模的研究中发现，大多数用户都以非常负责任、嗯、定向的方式使用它，他们不会使用它来获得这种兴奋、欣快或镇静的感觉
Andrew Huberman: really, really okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：真的，真的很好。
I want, could you repeat that?
我想，你能再说一遍吗？
Uh, you said it very clearly, but I think the world needs to hear this.
呃，你说得很清楚，但我认为世界需要听到这个。
I'm
我是
Chris McCurdy: the estimated number of users right now.
Chris McCurdy：目前的估计用户数量。
We, we don't really have a good thumb on this, right?
我们，我们对此真的没有很好的经验，对吧？
So the most recent literature report was around 2 million, two and a half million users.
所以最近的文献报道大约有200万、250万用户。
But if you look at sales of products and you talk to the manufacturers, the estimates are well over 20 million users in the United States.
但如果你看看产品的销售情况并与制造商交谈，你就会发现美国的用户数量远远超过 2000 万。
And if you look at the availability of product, it's gotta be closer to those numbers.
如果你看看产品的可用性，它一定更接近这些数字。
So, on a daily
所以，每天
Andrew Huberman: basis.
安德鲁·休伯曼：基础。
On a daily basis.
每天。
Daily basis.
每日基础。
So this isn't, you know, two to 20 million people per year.
所以，你知道，每年的人口数量并不是两到两千万。
No. Ingest Acra product.
不。摄入 Acra 产品。
This is, this is 20 million people a day.
这是,这是一天两千万人。
Chris McCurdy: This is what is the estimate right now.
Chris McCurdy：这就是目前的估计。
Wow.
哇。
Based on the amount of material that's been imported or if, if you will exported.
根据已进口的材料数量或是否要出口。
Um.
嗯。
To the US and then manufactured.
到美国然后制造。
And so in 2019 then when we actually had solid data, it is 1,950 metric tons per month coming in.
因此，到 2019 年，当我们真正掌握可靠数据时，每月进口量为 1,950 吨。
Andrew Huberman: Do you think, and there are many people that in the US that are ingesting CRE products like them for the effect it produces and are not aware that they're actually taking Kratom?
Andrew Huberman：您是否认为，在美国有很多人为了获得效果而服用类似 CRE 产品，但并不知道他们实际上正在服用卡痛？
Chris McCurdy: It's a very interesting question.
克里斯·麦柯迪：这是一个非常有趣的问题。
So I work with a, a whole plethora of, of different people, right?
所以我和一大堆不同的人一起工作，对吗？
So from emergency room physicians to medical toxicologists to basic scientists like myself and everything in between.
从急诊室医生到医学毒理学家，再到像我这样的基础科学家以及介于两者之间的所有人。
And if, if people have heard of Kratom, they know what it is and they, they've, if if they've heard of it and they are, um, experienced in trying things, they've probably tried it.
如果，如果人们听说过卡痛，他们知道它是什么，他们，如果他们听说过它，并且他们，嗯，在尝试方面有经验，他们可能已经尝试过。
Um, and then there's a whole group of people that have no idea what it is, never heard of it just completely something that they drive by.
嗯，然后有一大群人不知道它是什么，从未听说过它，只是他们开车经过的东西。
They see it.
他们看到了。
Like you said, you see it everywhere, but you don't, you don't have any idea what it is.
就像你说的，你到处都能看到它，但你看不到，你不知道它是什么。
So I think, I think most people that are ingesting it or utilizing it know that they're utilizing it.
所以我认为，我认为大多数摄入或使用它的人都知道他们正在使用它。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
I think they know they're specifically going after it.
我认为他们知道他们正在专门追求它。
But again, what I'll say is what we did, it was an ecological momentary assessment.
但我要再说一遍的是，我们所做的，是一次生态瞬时评估。
And so this is an EMA study where you're actually.
所以这实际上是一项 EMA 研究。
Monitoring people with smartphone apps in every single dose they're taking, they're reporting what they're feeling.
通过智能手机应用程序监控人们服用的每一剂药物，他们会报告他们的感受。
They're reporting why they're taking it, when they're taking it.
他们报告为什么服用它、何时服用。
Right.
正确的。
And the majority of those people that were involved in those studies were using it in a appropriate sort of, not to get high way.
参与这些研究的大多数人都以适当的方式使用它，而不是为了达到目的。
Andrew Huberman: What are they using it for?
Andrew Huberman：他们用它做什么？
Chris McCurdy: Mostly for energy, mood, elevation, um, and pain treatment.
Chris McCurdy：主要用于能量、情绪、提升，嗯，和疼痛治疗。
So, uh, people like to use it, uh, as an alternative, um, particularly to opioids.
所以，呃，人们喜欢用它，呃，作为替代品，特别是阿片类药物。
So what we were surprised at, we thought we would see a lot of people using it to get off of opioids.
让我们感到惊讶的是，我们认为我们会看到很多人用它来戒除阿片类药物。
Right.
正确的。
Because that's sort of the general, um, theme that it's had.
因为这就是它所具有的一般主题。
Indeed.
的确。
People are doing that.
人们正在这样做。
And I, I get emails almost weekly of people writing to me saying that this got them off the couch.
而我，几乎每周都会收到人们写信给我的电子邮件，说这让他们离开了沙发。
You know, they, they getting their families back, they're getting their lives back because this really helped give them that energy that they didn't have when they had opioids.
你知道，他们让家人重获新生，他们重获生活，因为这确实帮助他们获得了服用阿片类药物时所没有的能量。
Andrew Huberman: Really?
安德鲁·休伯曼：真的吗？
Okay.
好的。
We'll definitely double click on that in a few minutes.
我们肯定会在几分钟内双击它。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Chris McCurdy: And so that's an interesting group of people.
克里斯·麦柯迪：这是一群有趣的人。
But I'm not sure that that's the largest group that are out there.
但我不确定这是最大的群体。
It's really these mood elevations You touched on a little bit too with the exercise, um, uh, the, the people are using this as a pre-workout stimulant to give you more endurance, very similar to the traditional use, right?
确实是这些情绪升高，你在锻炼中也提到了一点，嗯，呃，人们用它作为锻炼前的兴奋剂来给你更多的耐力，与传统用途非常相似，对吧？
These people in the outdoor hot environment, being able to work better, harder, faster.
这些人在室外炎热的环境下，能够工作得更好、更努力、更快。
Um, and, and people are using it as a post-workout, uh, pain treatment, right?
嗯，人们用它作为锻炼后的疼痛治疗，对吧？
To help kind of soothe them through that, all that lactic acid build up in that pain feeling.
为了帮助他们缓解疼痛，所有的乳酸都会在疼痛感中积聚。
So there's a variety of, of groups or, or reported groups of users, but the biggest one is really that mood elevation, that sort of, kind of energy boosts.
因此，有各种各样的群体或报告的用户群体，但最大的一个实际上是情绪的提升，那种能量的提升。
Um, just overall general good feeling, not a high feeling.
嗯，总体感觉不错，不是很高的感觉。
And we, we specifically ask for those, those questions, you know, are you using this to get high?
我们特别问这些问题，你知道，你是用这个来兴奋的吗？
And yet there's a population of people that are purely out there to say, this is my thing, this is what I use it for.
然而，还是有很多人纯粹是在说，这是我的事，这就是我用它的目的。
I get high.
我变得很高。
I know people that on Friday nights they're like, this is, this is my Friday night jam and this is what I do and it makes me feel, you know, euphoric and relaxed and, and that's it.
我知道人们在周五晚上会说，这就是我周五晚上的即兴表演，这就是我所做的，这让我感到，你知道，欣快和放松，就是这样。
And so I think there's just.
所以我认为就是这样。
Various user populations and, and we can't even get to a granular point in that to say, you know, are these populations, um, that are trying to get high, are they using those really concentrated products?
不同的用户群体，我们甚至无法详细说明，你知道，这些人群，嗯，试图变得兴奋，他们是否使用那些真正集中的产品？
More than likely that would be the assumption.
这很可能就是假设。
And are the people that are using it more on a daily basis, are they doing it with more of the powdered leaf material and those types of products?
那些每天更多地使用它的人是否使用更多的粉末状叶子材料和那些类型的产品？
And that's generally what we've seen.
这通常就是我们所看到的。
Um, and interestingly enough, I mean we, we looked at the time of day, when are people using these products, right?
嗯，有趣的是，我的意思是，我们观察了一天中的时间，人们什么时候使用这些产品，对吗？
They, they wake up and within the first half hour they have it.
他们，他们醒来，在前半小时内他们就得到了它。
Andrew Huberman: Would you say they have it or they need it?
Andrew Huberman：你会说他们拥有它还是需要它？
Chris McCurdy: It could be they need it there.
克里斯·麦柯迪：可能他们在那里需要它。
It does, it absolutely causes a physical dependence.
确实如此，它绝对会造成身体依赖性。
Andrew Huberman: You said it absolutely causes a physical dependence.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你说这绝对会导致身体依赖性。
Do you mean it absolutely causes a physical dependence at every dose and every desired effect?
您的意思是说它绝对会导致每次剂量和每种所需效果的身体依赖性？
Chris McCurdy: I would, I would say not.
克里斯·麦柯迪：我会，我会说不会。
So if you take it one time, you're not gonna be physically dependent on it, but if you're utilizing it over a course of time, and I can't tell you what that timeframe is, because we don't have.
因此，如果你服用一次，你就不会在身体上依赖它，但如果你在一段时间内使用它，我无法告诉你那个时间范围是多少，因为我们没有。
Any chronic studies in humans we don't have.
我们没有对人类进行任何长期研究。
And, and sadly we don't even have chronic studies in animals, although animals aren't gonna be able to tell us, i, I need this.
而且，遗憾的是我们甚至没有对动物进行长期研究，尽管动物无法告诉我们，我，我需要这个。
Right?
正确的？
So the physical dependence feeling, um, that most people will report is very similar to that.
所以大多数人都会报告的身体依赖感与此非常相似。
And, and I, I, I get caught making this comparison many times because people that are using leaf material, excuse me, if they get up in the morning and they want to go get their leaf material, they're not drinking coffee, they're drinking raum or crate, and they, they have a headache or they feel miserable if they don't get that into them.
而且，我，我，我多次被抓到进行这种比较，因为使用叶子材料的人，对不起，如果他们早上起床，他们想去拿叶子材料，他们不会喝咖啡，他们会喝朗姆酒或板条箱，他们会头痛，或者如果他们不把它摄入体内，他们会感到痛苦。
Very similar to what we would get with a caffeine withdrawal, um, or physical dependence on caffeine.
非常类似于我们因咖啡因戒断而得到的结果，嗯，或者对咖啡因的身体依赖。
Now, I can't speak to how much intense that gets as you start to ramp up into those various products because we don't have good reports around those.
现在，我无法说出当你开始使用这些不同的产品时会变得多么激烈，因为我们没有关于这些产品的良好报告。
But I can tell you that anecdotally people have said they get more restless leg syndrome, they get more severe type physical dependence signs, which restless leg is much more related to opioid.
但我可以告诉你，据传闻，人们说他们患有更多的不宁腿综合症，他们会出现更严重的身体依赖症状，而这种不宁腿与阿片类药物更相关。
Withdrawal type issue than it is to a coffee withdrawal issue.
提款类型的问题比咖啡提款问题更重要。
So there, there's not only is there a spectrum of, of physical dependence symptoms, um, you know, you, you, you have this spectrum of products and which ones are causing, which we don't, we don't have a handle on yet.
所以，不仅有一系列的身体依赖性症状，嗯，你知道，你，你，你有一系列的产品，哪些是导致的，哪些是我们没有的，我们还没有掌握。
Andrew Huberman: I'm gathering at this point that there are basically three paths of Kratom usage in the United States.
Andrew Huberman：据我所知，卡痛在美国的使用基本上有三种途径。
One group of people is using Kratom products to achieve an energetic lift, not dissimilar from the lift they're seeking with caffeine or an energy drink.
一群人正在使用卡痛产品来获得能量提升，这与他们通过咖啡因或能量饮料寻求的提升没有什么不同。
Chris McCurdy: Right.
克里斯·麦柯迪：对。
Andrew Huberman: It sounds like they're using crem products pretty regularly to achieve that.
Andrew Huberman：听起来他们经常使用乳霜产品来实现这一目标。
And if they don't use their crem product, they feel a little bit more lethargic, maybe a little bit minor headache, not as energized and clear as they would otherwise.
如果他们不使用乳霜产品，他们会感觉有点昏昏欲睡，也许还有一点轻微的头痛，而不是像其他时候那样充满活力和清醒。
Sounds a lot like caffeine to me.
对我来说听起来很像咖啡因。
Chris McCurdy: Right.
克里斯·麦柯迪：对。
Andrew Huberman: With one caveat I should add.
Andrew Huberman：我要补充一点。
When somebody consumes a lot of caffeine.
当某人摄入大量咖啡因时。
At some point, the, the effect starts to drop off because they, they gain a tolerance.
在某些时候，效果开始下降，因为他们获得了耐受性。
The, the effect of caffeine doesn't shift from a stimulant to an, to a more opioid like effect.
咖啡因的作用不会从兴奋剂转变为更像阿片类药物的作用。
The more you take, it tends to just make you less, uh, sensitive to caffeine over time.
你摄入的越多，随着时间的推移，它往往会让你对咖啡因的敏感度降低。
It's more of a inverted u-shape function as opposed to a two different curves.
它更像是一个倒U 形函数，而不是两条不同的曲线。
Right.
正确的。
Chris McCurdy: Right.
克里斯·麦柯迪：对。
But you will, you will become, you know, you'll get jittery with caffeine and you get, it actually causes anxiety when you get into higher amounts of it.
但是你会，你会变得，你知道，你会对咖啡因感到紧张，而且当你摄入大量咖啡因时，它实际上会引起焦虑。
And so, yeah.
所以，是的。
I mean, point well taken.
我的意思是，这一点很好。
It's just a matter of where you are in that sort of U-shaped curve, right?
这只是你在 U 形曲线中所处位置的问题，对吗？
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
You gotta get over that sort of jittery anxiety point before it really starts to you, it doesn't bother you, right?
在这种紧张的焦虑感真正开始出现之前，你必须先克服它，它不会打扰你，对吧？
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
I, I mean, when I was a young assistant professor, they would see me come in the restaurant with our, our guests and they would immediately put a pot of coffee on because they knew I was gonna sit there until nine, 10 o'clock at night and drink coffee the whole time.
我，我的意思是，当我还是一名年轻的助理教授时，他们会看到我和我们的客人一起走进餐厅，他们会立即放上一壶咖啡，因为他们知道我会坐在那里直到晚上九点、十点，一直喝咖啡。
Right.
正确的。
And I go to bed, no problem.
然后我就去睡觉了，没问题。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
I was saying I can't do that today.
我说过今天我不能这么做。
Recently on a podcast I was a guest on, I shared that I drink, and I do not suggest people do this, but I legitimately drink somewhere between 600 and probably 900 milligrams of caffeine per day.
最近，在我作为嘉宾参加的一个播客中，我分享了我喝酒的情况，我不建议人们这样做，但我每天合法地喝 600 到 900 毫克咖啡因。
Wow.
哇。
And people say, well, that's impossible, but I'll drink five.
人们说，好吧，那是不可能的，但我会喝五杯。
Zero sugar, cold brew, yerba mate.
零糖、冷萃、马黛茶。
Each one of those 120 milligrams plus a strong coffee, probably another half cup.
每120毫克加上一杯浓咖啡，可能还要半杯。
I limit it to the early part of the day or up to about 2:00 PM Yeah.
我将其限制在一天的早些时候或下午 2:00 左右是的。
But no problem.
但没问题。
But most people who get their commercial vendor coffee, right.
但大多数购买商业咖啡的人是对的。
Let's say, uh, venti coffee, take that away from them from two for two days and they will be complaining of headache and maybe even nausea because it, there's so much caffeine in those.
比方说，呃，万提咖啡，如果两天内不让他们喝咖啡，他们就会抱怨头痛，甚至可能恶心，因为里面含有太多咖啡因。
Chris McCurdy: Right.
克里斯·麦柯迪：对。
Okay.
好的。
So
所以
Andrew Huberman: we got this first case, uh, caffeine like usage.
Andrew Huberman：我们收到了第一个案例，呃，咖啡因之类的用法。
Right.
正确的。
Right.
正确的。
Let's just wrap in that, um, second path of CRE usage seems to be people who use fairly high doses or, or concentrates to achieve an opioid like effect.
让我们总结一下，嗯，CRE 使用的第二种途径似乎是人们使用相当高的剂量或浓缩物来达到类似阿片类药物的效果。
A, a mild sedative effect, um, euphoric effect.
A，温和的镇静作用，嗯，欣快作用。
Um, this sounds a lot like opioid use or higher dosage alcohol use, for instance.
嗯，这听起来很像使用阿片类药物或使用更高剂量的酒精。
Right.
正确的。
And then we've got this third category that you mentioned that are using Kratom to get off opiates or to stay away from opiates.
然后我们有您提到的第三类，即使用卡痛来戒除阿片类药物或远离阿片类药物。
Yeah.
是的。
And for whom you, you told us Kratom is a, is a real benefit for them because otherwise they would be strongly addicted to opiates.
对于您来说，您告诉我们卡痛是一个真正的好处，因为否则他们会对阿片类药物严重上瘾。
And I should just mention that this third cat category of people are the ones that I heard from when I mentioned on uh, X, formerly known as Twitter.
我只想提一下，这第三类猫类人就是我在呃 X（以前称为 Twitter）上提到的那些人。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
I said something kind of negative about Kratom.
我说了一些关于卡痛的负面言论。
I just put out a.
我刚刚出了一个。
A a then tweet now post, um, which alluded to the, the darker sides of Kratom.
当时的一条推文现在发布了，嗯，其中提到了卡痛的黑暗面。
Chris McCurdy: Right.
克里斯·麦柯迪：对。
And
并且
Andrew Huberman: I got attacked actually by this community that said, Hey, were it not for Kratom, uh, we'd see a lot more, uh, opioid dependence.
Andrew Huberman：我实际上受到了这个社区的攻击，他们说，嘿，如果没有 Kratom，呃，我们会看到更多，呃，阿片类药物依赖。
We'd see a lot more fatalities.
我们会看到更多的死亡。
And actually, I learned about you in large part through the dialogue that emerged from that response.
事实上，我在很大程度上是通过该回应中出现的对话来了解你的。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
And so hopefully what listeners of the, of this podcast are starting to hear is that this molecule is, uh, complicated, super interesting, and that the usage patterns are complicated and varied and very interesting.
因此，希望这个播客的听众开始听到的是，这个分子，呃，复杂，超级有趣，而且使用模式复杂多样，非常有趣。
Yeah.
是的。
So we can't just say create 'em bad, cre 'em good.
所以我们不能只说“把它们创造得不好，把它们创造得好”。
Chris McCurdy: Right?
克里斯·麦柯迪：对吗？
Andrew Huberman: We really have to explore how it's delivered and what people are using it for.
Andrew Huberman：我们确实必须探索它的交付方式以及人们使用它的目的。
Chris McCurdy: And again, we can't just say cre 'em because it's, that's just like, just saying alcohol, right?
克里斯·麦柯迪：再说一遍，我们不能只说“cre 'em”，因为这就像只是说“酒精”，对吧？
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
So there's, there's a variety of different forms of product mm-hmm.
所以，有各种不同形式的产品嗯嗯。
That are, that are out there and that are being utilized.
也就是说，那些已经存在并且正在被利用。
And, and it could be that those, those are being utilized in, in very different ways.
而且，这些可能正在以非常不同的方式被利用。
Um, as I mentioned, we don't have good, strong data to suggest one way or the other, but you can assume and anecdotally say that it would make sense, right?
嗯，正如我提到的，我们没有良好、有力的数据来建议一种方式或另一种方式，但你可以假设并有趣地说这是有道理的，对吗？
So I think two things that will really kind of probably blow this open a little bit more.
所以我认为有两件事可能会让这个问题变得更加开放。
Um, one is, is that, uh, crem itself contains.
嗯，一个是，是，呃，奶油本身含有。
Multiple compounds, multiple chemical compounds.
多种化合物，多种化合物。
So it's not just one thing, it's an alkaloid.
所以它不仅仅是一件事，它是一种生物碱。
It has at least 20 to 40 alkaloids in it.
它含有至少20至40种生物碱。
Andrew Huberman: Can you, um, explain to people what an alkaloid is Sure.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你能，呃，向人们解释一下什么是生物碱。
And some other examples of alkaloids they might be familiar with.
还有一些他们可能熟悉的生物碱的其他例子。
Sure.
当然。
Chris McCurdy: So alkaloid is a organic molecule that has at least a nitrogen in its structure.
克里斯·麦柯迪：生物碱是一种有机分子，其结构中至少有一个氮。
So it, it has to be, uh, nitrogen, carbon, hydrogen, it can or cannot have oxygen.
所以它，它必须是，呃，氮，碳，氢，它可以有或不能有氧。
Um, but those are essentially the, the template for what we would define as an alkaloid.
嗯，但这些本质上是我们定义为生物碱的模板。
And then there's various classes of alkaloids.
还有各种类别的生物碱。
Um, many things that people are familiar with.
嗯，很多事情都是人们熟悉的。
Dopamine, serotonin, these are alkaloids.
多巴胺、血清素，这些都是生物碱。
Um, but we could go further.
嗯，但我们可以走得更远。
We just talked about caffeine, caffeine's in alkaloid, uh, cocaine's in alkaloid.
我们刚刚谈到了咖啡因，生物碱中的咖啡因，呃，生物碱中的可卡因。
Morphines in alkaloid.
生物碱中的吗啡。
Um, so all of these molecules contain a nitrogen, um, that that is core to part of their activity, what we believe is essential for them to interact with the proteins in the body.
嗯，所以所有这些分子都含有氮，嗯，这是它们部分活性的核心，我们认为这对于它们与体内蛋白质相互作用至关重要。
Andrew Huberman: Can I ask a question about nitrogen and protein interactions?
Andrew Huberman：我可以问一个关于氮和蛋白质相互作用的问题吗？
Sure.
当然。
Given this as a Science slash health podcast, without getting too far down in the weeds, uh, a number of people will hear, okay, it's got a nitrogen.
鉴于这是一个科学削减健康播客，在不深入杂草的情况下，呃，很多人会听到，好吧，它有氮气。
Okay.
好的。
That probably have, uh.
那可能有，呃。
Vague or, or clear memories of, of chemistry class.
对化学课的模糊或清晰的记忆。
But the fact that you have this, this n this nitrogen, right, and you have cells that have proteins it for the non chemist, could you explain how the nitrogen allows the, that molecule to do something?
但事实上，你有这个，这个氮，对吧，你的细胞里有蛋白质，对于非化学家来说，你能解释一下氮是如何让那个分子做某事的吗？
Does it bind with more affinity?
它是否具有更强的亲和力？
Does it change the gene expression?
它会改变基因表达吗？
What is it about having a nitrogen that really changes the properties of a molecule?
氮究竟如何真正改变分子的性质？
Chris McCurdy: Yeah, so there's, there's a couple of important pieces here.
克里斯·麦柯迪：是的，这里有几个重要的部分。
Nitrogen is a element that can act as a base, so it can, in, in a technical term, can accept a proton.
氮是一种可以充当碱的元素，因此用技术术语来说，它可以接受质子。
So it can also develop a charge.
所以它也可以产生电荷。
Charges are important because if you think about magnets, right?
电荷很重要，因为如果你想到磁铁，对吗？
We have a positive charge magnet face and a negative charge magnet face, and those two things will attract each other.
我们有一个带正电荷的磁铁面和一个带负电荷的磁铁面，这两个东西会相互吸引。
You can set them on a table and they'll find each other, right, depending on how strong or close they are to each other.
你可以把它们放在桌子上，它们就会找到彼此，对吧，这取决于它们彼此的强度或亲密程度。
That's a very similar thing that happens between, uh, nitrogen that can gain a positive charge in our body and say a carboxylic acid or a, a, a negative charge that would be present on a protein.
这与在我们体内获得正电荷的氮和蛋白质上存在的羧酸或负电荷之间发生的情况非常相似。
And so that nitrogen being charged, I always call it, when I teach my pharmacy students, it's almost like a tractor beam that molecules floating around and it, it's.
因此，当我教我的药学学生时，我总是称其为氮气，它几乎就像牵引光束，分子漂浮在周围，它就是这样。
Trying to find that negative charge to interact with.
试图找到与之相互作用的负电荷。
And when it finds the right one in the right space, in the right fit, boom, it's into that protein and it causes whatever it's gonna cause.
当它在正确的空间、正确的位置找到正确的蛋白质时，它就会进入那种蛋白质，并引起任何它要引起的现象。
Whether it activates that protein or whether it blocks that protein from doing its function, it is a key element of life.
无论它激活该蛋白质还是阻止该蛋白质发挥其功能，它都是生命的关键要素。
All our amino acids, amino is nitrogen.
我们所有的氨基酸，氨基都是氮。
All of our amino acids are building blocks of life, have that nitrogen and they have the acid part to it.
我们所有的氨基酸都是生命的组成部分，有氮，也有酸部分。
So they have a positive and a negative charge by nature.
因此它们本质上具有正电荷和负电荷。
Um, and that's what makes up all of our proteins.
嗯，这就是我们所有蛋白质的组成部分。
And so the proteins can have positive charges from the nitrogens and they can have negative charges from the acids.
因此，蛋白质可以带有来自氮的正电荷，并且可以带有来自酸的负电荷。
And what we generally see with plant materials is they have alkaloids within those plants.
我们通常看到的植物材料是在这些植物中含有生物碱。
And those alkaloids, um, have helped define really our chemical neurotransmitter systems.
这些生物碱，嗯，确实帮助定义了我们的化学神经递质系统。
Nicotine perfect example.
尼古丁完美的例子。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
It's an alkaloid.
它是一种生物碱。
We have an entire acetyl cholinergic nervous system in which is the exclusive nervous system in insects, but.
我们有完整的乙酰胆碱能神经系统，这是昆虫独有的神经系统，但是。
Nicotine binds to nicotinic, acet, cholinergic receptors.
尼古丁与烟碱、乙酰、胆碱能受体结合。
That whole system was defined by nicotine.
整个系统是由尼古丁定义的。
Andrew Huberman: Right.
安德鲁·休伯曼：对。
And people, uh, just to take a step back, um, what, uh, Dr. McCurdy's explaining is that there are receptors throughout the brain and body that are responsible for everything from muscle movement and contraction to correct, uh, your ability to focus, um, to your memory.
人们，呃，退一步说，呃，麦柯迪博士的解释是，整个大脑和身体都有受体，负责从肌肉运动和收缩到纠正，呃，你的注意力集中能力，嗯，记忆力的一切。
Um, neuroplasticity that are so-called nicotinic acetylcholine receptors, they didn't evolve because we thought that people would take nicotine.
嗯，神经可塑性，即所谓的烟碱乙酰胆碱受体，它们没有进化，因为我们认为人们会吸收尼古丁。
It just so happens that this plant, that, uh, tobacco plant that contains nicotine was used as a experimental probe to understand where these nicotinic receptors are in the body.
碰巧的是，这种植物，呃，含有尼古丁的烟草植物被用作实验探针，以了解这些烟碱受体在体内的位置。
So this reflects the fact that humans have been, uh, nibbling on plants and seeing what happens for a long time.
所以这反映了这样一个事实：人类长期以来一直在啃食植物并观察会发生什么。
There's a, um, explicative version of this, which is f around and find out kind of, uh, experimentation.
有一个，嗯，解释性的版本，它是围绕并找出某种，呃，实验。
But this is really what, uh, old world primates, including humans have been doing for a long time.
但这确实是，呃，旧世界的灵长类动物，包括人类，长期以来一直在做的事情。
And then just seeing whether or not, uh, your buddy that ate the plant died.
然后看看，呃，你吃植物的伙伴是否死了。
Chris McCurdy: Yeah.
克里斯·麦柯迪：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Got energized.
安德鲁·休伯曼：充满活力。
Mated, um, fought, slept right.
交配，嗯，战斗，睡得好。
And I mean, this is kind of still what we're doing.
我的意思是，这仍然是我们正在做的事情。
It's just that we do this now with, uh, lab coats on
只是我们现在穿着实验服来做这件事
Chris McCurdy: Right.
克里斯·麦柯迪：对。
And in many ways.
在很多方面。
And, and you're a hundred percent right.
而且，你是百分百正确的。
Right.
正确的。
There's the old joke, there's two types of mushroom hunters, the good ones and dead ones.
有一个老笑话，蘑菇猎人有两种类型，好的和死的。
Right.
正确的。
Good joke.
好笑话。
'cause it's
因为它是
Andrew Huberman: gonna keep a lot of people safe.
安德鲁·休伯曼：会保护很多人的安全。
Chris McCurdy: Yeah.
克里斯·麦柯迪：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Chris McCurdy: And, and I mean, it's, that's the point.
克里斯·麦柯迪：我的意思是，这就是重点。
And, and in fact, I've, I've done a lot of work with Ethnobotanists and ethno, pharmacologists and somewhat M1 myself, uh, being in that work we've been doing and actually going into the, you know, native places to learn more about it, um, which is what ethnobotanists or ethno pharmacologists would be doing.
事实上，我已经与民族植物学家和民族药理学家以及我自己一起做了很多工作，呃，我们一直在做这项工作，并且实际上进入了，你知道的，家乡以了解更多关于它的信息，嗯，这就是民族植物学家或民族药理学家会做的事情。
Um, and you know, we, we, we have, uh, a lot to learn from the things that have existed on this earth for a long time.
嗯，你知道，我们，我们，我们，呃，有很多东西要从地球上长期存在的事物中学习。
Many of those are animals.
其中许多是动物。
Animals were probably the first pharmacists.
动物可能是第一个药剂师。
And the first physicians because they learned which plants to utilize when they were ill or sick.
第一批医生是因为他们知道在生病或生病时应该使用哪些植物。
And they used which plants to avoid to stay alive.
他们还利用避免使用哪些植物来维持生命。
So they, they learned these things long before humans were capable of looking at and understanding what the animals were doing and then mimicking the animals.
所以他们，早在人类能够观察和理解动物在做什么，然后模仿动物之前就已经学会了这些东西。
Right.
正确的。
And then this is sort of how modern medicine started to develop was.
这就是现代医学开始发展的方式。
All by observational.
一切靠观察。
All by anecdotal.
一切都是轶事。
Hey, that, that looks interesting, right?
嘿，那个，看起来很有趣，对吧？
This, this is happening
这，这正在发生
Andrew Huberman: and you still do this now in your laboratory?
Andrew Huberman：你现在还在实验室里做这个吗？
Yeah.
是的。
We study animals and we advance to human clinical trials.
我们研究动物，然后进入人体临床试验。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Animals have a certain advantage in this regard because they don't, um, subject themselves to the placebo effect as far as we know.
动物在这方面具有一定的优势，因为据我们所知，它们不会，嗯，使自己受到安慰剂效应的影响。
Chris McCurdy: Correct.
克里斯·麦柯迪：正确。
Andrew Huberman: And in addition to that, animals, most animals, including insects, but many non-human mammals have a much more powerful sense of, of smell than we do.
安德鲁·休伯曼：除此之外，动物，大多数动物，包括昆虫，但许多非人类哺乳动物都比我们拥有更强大的嗅觉。
And many of the compounds in plants, if they have, uh, like some people will, um, be familiar with the discussions about testosterone and estrogen as, you know, steroid hormones, having, um, and then the aromatase properties aroma, they, they literally make, have an aroma that chemists in the lab know, or you could smell if something has a, has a steroid like chemical structure by virtue of the way it smells.
植物中的许多化合物，如果它们具有，呃，就像有些人会，嗯，熟悉关于睾酮和雌激素的讨论，因为，你知道，类固醇激素，具有，嗯，然后芳香酶特性香气，它们，它们确实产生，具有实验室化学家知道的香气，或者你可以闻到，如果某种东西具有，具有类似类固醇的化学结构，通过它的气味方式。
But animals are very good at seeking out plants that have estrogen or testosterone in them just by virtue of their ability to smell those compounds.
但动物非常擅长通过嗅觉这些化合物来寻找含有雌激素或睾酮的植物。
Uh, very, very, um, sensitively.
呃，非常非常，嗯，敏感。
Chris McCurdy: And you take it a little step further, it's also the taste part that's involved.
克里斯·麦柯迪：你再进一步，这也涉及到口味部分。
I had my original mentor, he is, he's gone now.
我有我原来的导师，他是，但现在他走了。
Um, one of my original mentors, he actually.
嗯，实际上是我最初的导师之一。
Would come into the lab, was so old school that he would dip his finger into whatever I made and taste it and say, yep, you got your product.
他会走进实验室，他太老派了，他会把手指伸进我做的任何东西里尝一尝，然后说，是的，你得到了你的产品。
I knew that was coming.
我知道那一天即将到来。
Yeah, because I, I knew one of these old,
是的，因为我，我认识其中一位老人，
Andrew Huberman: older, uh, he was a neuroanatomist and I never, I can't believe that these guys did this.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：年纪大了，呃，他是一名神经解剖学家，而我从来没有，我不敢相信这些人做到了这一点。
These guys did it.
这些人做到了。
Uh, he's dead now by way of age, but he was a member of the national academy and everything that we had a, a shipment of, please do not do this, of, of non-human primate and human brain tissue being shipped in for his brain bank.
呃，他现在已经死了，但他是国家科学院的成员，我们拥有的所有东西，请不要这样做，非人类灵长类动物和人类脑组织都被运来作为他的脑库。
Friends of mine will know who this is.
我的朋友们都知道这是谁。
And he opened up the jar that it was shipped in, it was in liquid and he took off his glove, which itself is crazy.
他打开了装运的罐子，里面是液体，然后他脱下了手套，这本身就很疯狂。
He dipped two fingers in and he goes 30% sucrose, but this could have PreOn in it now it was fixed Also being a para formaldehyde.
他用两根手指蘸了进去，加入了 30% 的蔗糖，但这里面可能含有 PreOn，现在它也被修复了，也是一种多聚甲醛。
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
No, no, no regard whatsoever.
不不不，一点也不在意。
Scr it, put it on the shelf and then, you know, people got to work and it was obviously a demonstrate this was kind of bravado in, in laboratories, do self experimentation, terrible habits.
把它写下来，放在架子上，然后，你知道，人们开始工作，这显然是一种虚张声势的表现，在实验室里进行自我实验，这是可怕的习惯。
Um, but uh.
嗯，但是呃。
It was not uncommon.
这并不罕见。
I mean, this is the way chemistry was done.
我的意思是，这就是化学的进行方式。
Chris McCurdy: One of my great manners, and I'll, I'll spare him sharing his name, but his, his, um, his master's thesis was making analogs of methylphenidate, which is Ritalin.
克里斯·麦柯迪：我的礼貌之一，我不会让他透露他的名字，但他的，他的，嗯，他的硕士论文正在制作哌醋甲酯的类似物，也就是利他林。
And so he, Ritalin is a, um, methyl ester.
所以他，利他林是一种，嗯，甲酯。
So it's a carboxylic acid that has one carbon attached to where the acid part is.
所以它是一种羧酸，在酸部分所在的位置有一个碳。
So this makes a, what we call an ester.
这样就形成了我们所说的酯。
Um, and if you extend the carbon chain of an ester, you can one, increase how it is absorbed in the body, and two, you can potentially increase how long it lasts in the body.
嗯，如果你延长酯的碳链，一是可以增加它在体内的吸收方式，二是可以增加它在体内的持续时间。
And so his whole project was making from the methyl.
所以他的整个项目都是用甲基制造的。
Now we take two carbons, which is ethyl, and we take three carbons, which is propyl.
现在我们取两个碳，即乙基，我们取三个碳，即丙基。
Uh, we branch those carbons to make isopropyl or whatnot.
呃，我们对这些碳进行支化以制造异丙基或诸如此类的东西。
And he would try each one of the compounds that he made himself to see if pharmacokinetically and pharmacodynamically, it's improved on methylphenidate.
他会尝试自己制造的每一种化合物，看看在药代动力学和药效学方面是否比哌醋甲酯有所改善。
Well guess what's still on the market today, methylphenidate.
好吧，猜猜今天市场上还有什么，哌醋甲酯。
So that ought tell you the, the result of his work.
所以这应该告诉你他的工作结果。
Andrew Huberman: Wow.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哇。
Chris McCurdy: But when he told me those stories, um, it just blew my mind because I, I'm so averse to even smelling the chemicals we work with.
克里斯·麦柯迪：但是当他告诉我这些故事时，嗯，这让我大吃一惊，因为我，我什至不愿意闻我们工作中使用的化学品。
Uh,
呃，
Andrew Huberman: good.
安德鲁·休伯曼：很好。
You can blow out your olfactory epi epithelium.
你可以吹掉你的嗅觉上皮。
Chris McCurdy: Oh, absolutely.
克里斯·麦柯迪：哦，当然。
Andrew Huberman: I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG one.
Andrew Huberman：我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG one。
Ag one is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens.
Ag one 是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮料，还含有益生元和适应原。
As somebody who's been involved in research science for almost three decades, and in health and fitness for equally as long, I'm constantly looking for the best tools to improve my mental health, physical health and performance.
作为一个从事科学研究近三十年的人，并且在健康和健身领域也有同样长的时间，我一直在寻找最好的工具来改善我的心理健康、身体健康和表现。
I discovered a G one back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since.
我早在 2012 年就发现了 G One，早在我拥有播客之前很久，从那以后我就每天都在听。
I find it improves all aspects of my health, my energy, my focus, and I simply feel much better when I take it.
我发现它改善了我的健康、精力、注意力的各个方面，而且服用它后我感觉好多了。
A G one uses the highest quality ingredients in the right combinations.
A G one 采用最优质的原料并进行正确的组合。
They're constantly improving their formulas without increasing the cost.
他们在不增加成本的情况下不断改进配方。
In fact, AG one just launched their latest formula upgrade.
事实上，AG one刚刚推出了他们最新的配方升级。
This next gen formula is based on exciting new research on the effects of probiotics on the gut microbiome, and it now includes several clinically studied probiotics strains shown to support both digestive health and immune system health, as well as to improve bowel regularity and to reduce bloating.
这种下一代配方基于关于益生菌对肠道微生物组影响的令人兴奋的新研究，它现在包含几种经过临床研究的益生菌菌株，这些益生菌菌株显示出支持消化健康和免疫系统健康，以及改善肠道规律性和减少腹胀。
Whenever I'm asked if I could take just one supplement, what that supplement would be, I always say AG one.
每当我被问到是否可以只服用一种补充剂时，我总是说 AG 一种。
If you'd like to try ag one, you can go to drink ag one.com/huberman for a limited time Ag one is giving away a free one month supply of Omega-3 fish oil, along with a bottle of vitamin D three plus K two.
如果你想尝试ag one，可以去ag one.com/huberman限时饮用。 Ag one免费赠送一个月的Omega-3鱼油，以及一瓶维生素D 3加K 2。
As I've highlighted before on this podcast, Omega-3 fish oil and vitamin D three K two have been shown to help with everything from mood and brain health to heart health to healthy hormone status, and much more.
正如我之前在此播客中强调的那样，Omega-3 鱼油和维生素 D 3 K 2 已被证明有助于改善从情绪和大脑健康到心脏健康到健康激素状态等各个方面。
Again, that's drink ag one.com/huberman To get a free one month supply of Omega-3 fish oil, plus a bottle of vitamin D three plus K two with your subscription.
再次强调，订阅 ag one.com/huberman 即可免费获得一个月的 Omega-3 鱼油，以及一瓶维生素 D 3 和 K 2。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Rocha.
今天的节目也是Rocha给我们带来的。
I'm excited to share that.
我很高兴能分享这一点。
Rocha and I recently teamed up to create a new pair of red lens glasses.
罗查和我最近联手打造了一副新的红色镜片眼镜。
These red lens glasses are meant to be worn in the evening after the sun goes down, they filter out short wavelength light that comes from screens and from LED lights, which are the most common indoor lighting nowadays.
这些红色镜片眼镜适合在晚上太阳下山后佩戴，它们会过滤掉来自屏幕和 LED 灯（当今最常见的室内照明）的短波长光。
I want to emphasize Roca red lens glasses are not traditional blue blockers.
我想强调的是乐家红色镜片眼镜不是传统的防蓝光眼镜。
They do filter out blue light, but they filter out a lot more than just blue light.
它们确实过滤掉蓝光，但它们过滤的不仅仅是蓝光。
In fact, they filter out the full range of short wavelength light that suppresses the hormone melatonin.
事实上，它们会过滤掉所有抑制褪黑激素的短波长光。
By the way, you want melatonin high in the evening and at night makes it easy to fall and stay asleep, and those short wavelengths trigger increases in cortisol.
顺便说一句，您希望在晚上获得较高的褪黑激素，并且晚上可以轻松入睡并保持睡眠状态，而这些短波长会引发皮质醇的增加。
Increases in cortisol are great in the early part of the day, but you do not want increases in cortisol in the evening and at night.
一天中的早些时候，皮质醇会大量增加，但您不希望傍晚和晚上皮质醇会增加。
These roka red lens glasses ensure normal healthy increases in melatonin and that your cortisol levels stay low, which is again what you want in the evening and at night.
这些 roka 红色镜片眼镜可确保褪黑激素的正常健康增加，并使您的皮质醇水平保持在较低水平，这又是您在晚上和晚上想要的。
In doing so, these roka red lens glasses really help you calm down and improve your transition to sleep.
这样做，这些 roka 红色镜片眼镜确实可以帮助您平静下来并改善睡眠过渡。
Roco red lens glasses also look great.
Roco 红色镜片眼镜也很好看。
They have a ton of different frames to select from and you can wear them out to dinner or concerts and you can still see things.
他们有很多不同的镜框可供选择，你可以戴着它们去参加晚宴或音乐会，但你仍然可以看到东西。
I don't recommend you wear them while driving just for safety purposes.
为了安全起见，我不建议您在开车时佩戴它们。
But if you're out to dinner, you're at a concert, you're at a friend's house, or you're just at home, pop those roco red lens glasses on and you'll really notice the difference in terms of your levels of calm and all the sleep stuff I mentioned earlier.
但如果你出去吃饭、听音乐会、在朋友家，或者只是在家，戴上洛可红色镜片眼镜，你会真正注意到你的平静程度和我之前提到的所有睡眠方面的差异。
So it really is possible to support your biology, be scientific about it, and remain social at the same time.
因此，支持你的生物学、使其科学化并同时保持社交性确实是可能的。
If you like, if you'd like to try Rocha, go to roka.com.
如果您愿意，如果您想尝试 Rocha，请访问 roka.com。
That's ROK a.com and enter the code huberman to save 20% off your first order.
这是 ROK a.com，输入代码 huberman 即可为您的第一笔订单节省 20%。
Again, that's rocha.com and enter the code huberman at checkout.
同样，这是 rocha.com，并在结账时输入代码 huberman。
What's clear to me now is that, uh, what we're talking about scientists and um.
现在我清楚的是，呃，我们正在谈论科学家，嗯。
Everyday, uh, apes, uh, that we call humans.
每天，呃，猿类，呃，我们称之为人类。
Um, smelling stuff and tasting stuff and experimenting on one end of the spectrum.
嗯，闻一闻，尝一尝，并在这一范围的一端进行实验。
And that on the other end of the spectrum, somebody going into a convenience store, we're looking online and buying a little bottle and slugging it down.
另一方面，有人走进一家便利店，我们会在网上购买一小瓶，然后一饮而尽。
Yeah.
是的。
And getting some effect.
并取得了一定的效果。
And I actually think in, in between those is some important experiential stuff that's missing.
我实际上认为，在这些之间缺少一些重要的体验性东西。
That perhaps is, explains a bit of where we are with Kratom at this point in time, which is historically, or what you call the traditional use, people would harvest the plant.
这也许可以解释我们目前与卡痛叶的关系，从历史上看，或者你所说的传统用途，人们会收获这种植物。
They have knowledge of kind of the, the coloration of the plant, the texture, the feel, a lot of unconscious knowledge too.
他们有关于植物的种类、颜色、质地、感觉的知识，还有很多无意识的知识。
Um, maybe it's passed down through generations, maybe they just learn it, you know, in a couple of years.
嗯，也许它是代代相传的，也许他们几年后才学会。
And next thing you know, they're brewing it.
接下来你知道，他们正在酝酿它。
They're drinking it as they're brewing it, they're smelling it.
他们一边泡一边喝，一边闻一边闻。
They're many more, um, avenues of information coming in about the concentration.
它们是更多，嗯，关于浓度的信息来源。
You're not just going from product purchase.
您不仅仅是购买产品。
Right.
正确的。
Ingestion effect.
摄入效果。
Chris McCurdy: Right.
克里斯·麦柯迪：对。
Andrew Huberman: And I think that perhaps this explains a lot of how we end up with, um, the highly processed food industry where.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为这也许可以解释我们如何最终进入高度加工的食品行业。
Much of what we're talking about today is paralleled.
我们今天讨论的大部分内容都是相似的。
You know, sugar is, we have an innate desire for sugar.
要知道，糖就是，我们对糖有一种与生俱来的渴望。
Who doesn't like sugar?
谁不喜欢糖呢？
We have an innate desire for protein and amino acids, but the highly processed food industry has figured out how to put all this into a package where there's two servings worth, right?
我们对蛋白质和氨基酸有着与生俱来的渴望，但高度加工的食品工业已经找到了如何将所有这些放入一个价值两份的包装中，对吗？
So you're ingesting far more calories, far more preservatives, et cetera, in trying to get some effect.
因此，为了达到某种效果，你会摄入更多的卡路里、更多的防腐剂等等。
But what happens is your threshold changes, right?
但你的阈值会发生变化，对吧？
And the next thing you know, you're going to the highly concentrated version.
接下来你就会知道，你将进入高度浓缩的版本。
In other words, we don't go through this process of stepping through and, and getting familiar with a molecule.
换句话说，我们不会经历逐步熟悉分子的过程。
And, and I think that could explain why people, you know, you're prescribed an opioid.
而且，我认为这可以解释为什么人们会开阿片类药物。
Next thing you know, you need that opioid, right?
接下来你知道，你需要阿片类药物，对吗？
I mean, good, good people have been very willing.
我的意思是，好人都非常愿意。
It's clear to do bad things to other people, right?
为别人做坏事是明摆着的吧？
In effort to try and avoid the withdrawal symptoms of opioids,
为了努力避免阿片类药物的戒断症状，
Chris McCurdy: right?
克里斯·麦柯迪：对吗？
And
并且
Andrew Huberman: often the person they're harming the most is themselves.
安德鲁·休伯曼：通常，他们伤害最深的人就是他们自己。
Chris McCurdy: I think what you hit on is, is a really deep philosophical conversation on a whole nother level, because I just had this conversation with a, a colleague.
克里斯·麦柯迪：我认为你想到的是，在另一个层面上的真正深刻的哲学对话，因为我刚刚与一位同事进行了这次对话。
We've lost totally in our culture where it is that medicines have come from.
我们完全迷失了药物的来源文化。
If you look at prescription medications, FDA approved medications.
如果您查看处方药，FDA 批准的药物。
In the neighborhood of 75% of those that are available today were either discovered because of a natural product or modified natural products that made it into our drug stores and our hospitals.
目前，大约 75% 的可用产品要么是因天然产品或改良天然产品而被发现，这些产品已进入我们的药店和医院。
Andrew Huberman: Aspirin.
安德鲁·休伯曼：阿司匹林。
Chris McCurdy: And aspirin is one perfect example.
克里斯·麦柯迪：阿司匹林就是一个完美的例子。
Sic acid.
硅酸。
Salicylic acid.
水杨酸。
Yeah.
是的。
It comes from sine, which is in the bark of the willow tree.
它来自柳树皮中的正弦。
And people used to chew on the bark of willow tree and that sal is the active form.
人们过去常常咀嚼柳树的树皮，而柳树皮是活性形式。
And you know, you get salicylic acid makes it more stable.
你知道，水杨酸使它更稳定。
And there's a long story there, but, um, uh, it's, it's important because, um, we've lost that sort of connection to nature, that connection we just talked about with the animal world, right?
这里面有一个很长的故事，但是，嗯，呃，这很重要，因为，嗯，我们已经失去了与自然的那种联系，我们刚刚谈到的与动物世界的联系，对吗？
That watching the animals do things and learning from the animals.
观察动物做事并向动物学习。
Andrew Huberman: Metformin, berberine.
安德鲁·休伯曼：二甲双胍，小檗碱。
Yeah.
是的。
A tree bark.
一颗树皮。
Yeah.
是的。
That lowers blood glucose and works for all the world as well as metformin.
它可以降低血糖，与二甲双胍一样适用于全世界。
Chris McCurdy: Well look at, look at the biggest selling weight loss drugs right now.
克里斯·麦柯迪：好吧，看看现在最畅销的减肥药。
The GLP ones, you know, you know that story.
GLP 的，你知道，你知道那个故事。
They actually came from the saliva of the, the Gila monster.
它们实际上来自希拉毒蜥的唾液。
So this is a lizard that eats only a few times a year.
所以这是一种一年只吃几次东西的蜥蜴。
Um, but in its saliva, it has, uh, GLP one.
嗯，但在它的唾液中，它有，呃，GLP 一项。
Peptides.
肽。
And, um, this was, this was learned to help control glucose and help do all these things.
而且，嗯，这是，这是为了帮助控制血糖并帮助完成所有这些事情而学到的。
And that was modified.
这已经被修改了。
And now we have wegovy and whatever, uh, ozempic, uh, out there as, as blockbuster drugs that are really changing, um, you know, the shape of, of our society for hopefully for a, a good benefit and, and getting people away from some of these sugary things you mentioned earlier too.
现在我们有了 wegovy 之类的，呃，ozempic，呃，作为重磅药物，它们确实正在改变，嗯，你知道，我们社会的形态，希望能带来良好的好处，并且让人们远离你之前提到的一些含糖的东西。
But yeah, there's, there's just this history, rich history of Dr how drugs have gotten to where they are.
但是，是的，有这样的历史，药物是如何到达它们现在的位置的丰富的历史。
And most of us, including myself, uh, you know, we run in and we pick up a prescription or we pick up something over the counter and don't even think twice about it.
我们大多数人，包括我自己，呃，你知道，我们跑进去拿处方药，或者在柜台上买一些东西，甚至不加考虑。
We know it's gonna give us this effect and boom.
我们知道它会给我们带来这种影响和繁荣。
And so you're, you're a hundred percent right.
所以你是，你是百分百正确的。
And like I say, it's a very long, deep philosophical discussion to get this whole thing's circular, but we've, we've lost that whole understanding of where things are coming from.
就像我说的，要让整个事情循环起来，这是一个非常漫长、深刻的哲学讨论，但我们已经失去了对事物从何而来的完整理解。
And that's, that's one of the things that I've always loved in my training.
这就是我在训练中一直喜欢的事情之一。
Originally as a pharmacist.
原本是一名药剂师。
I've always felt like for every disease that presents itself in this planet, there's gotta be a solution.
我一直觉得对于这个星球上出现的每一种疾病，都必须有一个解决方案。
There's gotta be this balance in nature.
自然界一定存在这种平衡。
And natural products has always attracted me because of that.
因此，天然产品一直吸引着我。
Andrew Huberman: I'm just struck by the, um.
Andrew Huberman：我只是被……嗯震惊了。
By the number of examples that are just like popping to mind about how we've gone from plants and food and compounds it out in nature to, through experimentation and observation to medicine.
大量的例子就像突然浮现在脑海中的那样，我们是如何从植物和食物并在自然界中将其合成，通过实验和观察到医学的。
And then how that those same medicines are extracted and concentrated and in some cases diabolically hidden in other things like food.
然后，这些相同的药物是如何被提取和浓缩的，在某些情况下，它们被恶魔般地隐藏在食物等其他东西中。
Um, 'cause I don't think sugar is poison in the same way that, um, heroin is poison, but sugar clearly can be destructive in a way that makes it poisonous and the way it's used and packaged and marketed, et cetera, and kid cereals and things like that, I think is absolutely clear.
嗯，因为我不认为糖是毒药，就像海洛因是毒药一样，但糖显然具有破坏性，使其有毒，而且它的使用、包装和营销方式等等，我认为这是绝对清楚的。
And so the arguments about whether or not sugar is addictive in the same way that heroin or cocaine is addictive are, um, they're kind of, um, empty arguments until we really define what we're talking about.
因此，关于糖是否会像海洛因或可卡因一样使人上瘾的争论，嗯，在我们真正定义我们所讨论的内容之前，它们都是空洞的争论。
And it is that the dose makes the poison.
正是剂量决定了毒药。
It's also whether or not people are aware of what they're doing.
这还取决于人们是否意识到自己在做什么。
I think this lack of awareness that we're using medicines when we consume products and that we're using medicines at high concentrations that are not typically found in nature is a big part of this.
我认为，我们在消费产品时缺乏对药物的认识，以及我们使用的药物浓度在自然界中通常不存在，这是其中的一个重要原因。
I also heard you say that you believe that for every human ailment and disease, there's probably a.
我还听到你说你相信每一种人类疾病都可能存在。
A treatment and or cure out there in nature.
自然界中存在一种治疗和/或治愈方法。
Chris McCurdy: Yeah.
克里斯·麦柯迪：是的。
That,
那，
Andrew Huberman: that's an exciting thing to hear from a medicinal chemist who runs a laboratory.
Andrew Huberman：从一位经营实验室的药物化学家那里听到这样的消息真是令人兴奋。
Um, which by the way, folks, um, looking over, uh, Chris McCurdy's cv, they publish at an, at an absolutely staggering rate and all high quality papers.
嗯，顺便说一句，各位，嗯，看看克里斯·麦柯迪的简历，他们以绝对惊人的速度发表论文，而且都是高质量的论文。
I mean, there's never been a single retracted paper.
我的意思是，从来没有一篇论文被撤回过。
They're just beau beautifully done studies that just the amount of work coming out of your lab in terms of trying to parse what these molecules are doing is just like mind blowing.
这些研究做得非常漂亮，你的实验室在试图解析这些分子所做的事情方面所做的工作量就像令人兴奋的一样。
So, uh, thank you.
所以，呃，谢谢你。
I just want to, uh, point that out.
我只是想，呃，指出这一点。
It's clearly clear that you're very passionate about this.
很明显，您对此非常热衷。
I, I have heard the, the concept of slow food.
我，我听说过，慢食的概念。
You know, this idea that instead just consuming prepackaged food and you know, we're gonna slow down.
你知道，这个想法，而不是只消费预包装食品，你知道，我们会放慢速度。
We're gonna cook our food, we're gonna get in touch with the food, and that will give us a better understanding and health relationship with the food.
我们要烹饪食物，我们要接触食物，这将使我们对食物有更好的理解和健康关系。
I almost feel like we need a slow medicine movement.
我几乎觉得我们需要缓慢的医学运动。
Yeah.
是的。
Almost might as well.
差不多也可以。
I like that idea.
我喜欢这个主意。
Yeah.
是的。
As somebody who has been using supplements since I was in my teens, um, and I know it's a less well-regulated, um.
作为一个从十几岁起就开始使用补充剂的人，嗯，我知道这是一个不太规范的，嗯。
Industry I've, I've long been interested in, in herbs.
我长期以来一直感兴趣的行业是草药。
Like I, I use, and I'm open about the fact that I've used Tonga Ali, um, as a, like for vitality for a long time, things like fedia.
就像我一样，我使用，而且我对这样的事实持开放态度：我长期以来一直使用汤加阿里，作为一种活力，比如联邦媒体。
Um, I continue to use these and my blood works as a, it's fine.
嗯，我继续使用这些，我的血液起到了作用，没关系。
And I, I enjoy them and, and it, it works well for me.
我，我喜欢它们，而且它对我很有效。
But if those were put into a, um, pharmacologic agent at very high concentration, I can bet that it's an entirely different molecule and experience and might cause shutdown of the, of, uh, certain hormone pathways and things like that.
但如果将它们以非常高的浓度放入，嗯，药物制剂中，我可以打赌，这是一种完全不同的分子和体验，可能会导致某些激素途径和类似的东西关闭。
There seems to be something kind of, um, unregulated and yet, uh, more nuanced and, um, stayed about the use of, of medicinals in their more natural form.
似乎有某种，嗯，不受监管，但，呃，更细致，嗯，仍然以更自然的形式使用药物。
And this is kind of the, the, the yin yang of it.
这就是它的阴阳。
It's like, yeah, you can't get an exact milligram dosage in concentration, but you're also not playing at very high concentrations.
就像，是的，你无法获得精确的毫克剂量浓度，但你也没有在非常高的浓度下打球。
Right,
对了，
Chris McCurdy: right.
克里斯·麦柯迪：对。
I I, I look at it like a natural products.
我我，我把它视为天然产品。
It, it, it, they have evolved in Mother Nature's Kitchen for, you know, millennials.
它，它，它，它们是在大自然母亲的厨房中为千禧一代进化而来的。
I mean, they've, they've been there for thousands of years.
我的意思是，他们已经在那里存在了数千年。
Um, it, it only took humans coming along to figure out how to manipulate all that right and mess it up.
嗯，人类只需要弄清楚如何操纵所有这些权利并将其搞砸。
So Mother Nature's kind of got it right in many cases.
因此，大自然在很多情况下都是正确的。
Uh.
呃。
A couple examples, just, just to bring this back to more of a discussion around alkaloids.
举几个例子，只是为了让大家回到更多关于生物碱的讨论。
Um, opium, opium poppy, uh, long been used, and yes, it's problematic, addictive and all these things, but it's nowhere as bad as once morphine, which by the way, was the very first alkaloid ever isolated, characterized, identified morphine.
嗯，鸦片，罂粟，呃，长期被使用，是的，它有问题，容易上瘾等等，但它远没有吗啡那么糟糕，顺便说一句，吗啡是第一个被分离、表征、鉴定的生物碱。
When that happened, the poppy became sort of not that important anymore because we found the magic piece.
当这种情况发生时，罂粟花就变得不再那么重要了，因为我们找到了魔法碎片。
The same thing happened with the second alkaloid ever isolated cocaine.
同样的情况也发生在第二种分离出的可卡因生物碱上。
Cocaine comes from coca Leaf, which has been used for thousands of years in South America and in indigenous tribes and cultures.
可卡因来自古柯叶，它在南美洲以及土著部落和文化中已经使用了数千年。
There, it's still used today.
在那里，它至今仍在使用。
It's one of the only places on the face of the earth that it's legal.
它是地球上唯一合法的地方之一。
Um, when cocaine was isolated and discovered the, the rest of the leaf was criminalized and thrown out like the baby's bath water.
嗯，当可卡因被分离出来并被发现时，剩下的叶子就被定为犯罪并像婴儿洗澡水一样被扔掉。
Um.
嗯。
Yet, there seems to be great medical potential with Coco Leaf.
然而，可可叶似乎具有巨大的医疗潜力。
Uh, and, and this is something that my lab is getting ready to embark on next, as kind of like our new, our new challenge.
呃，而且，这是我的实验室下一步准备着手的事情，就像我们新的、新的挑战一样。
We still, uh, we still have a lot of work to do, um, with Creo and understanding that, but, um, you get, you get to a point where a lot of the initial excitement starts to wear off and yeah, we know we need to do these other things, but we want to come back to some of that initial excitement project type work again.
我们仍然，呃，我们还有很多工作要做，嗯，与 Creo 合作并了解这一点，但是，嗯，你会发现，你会到达一个点，很多最初的兴奋开始消失，是的，我们知道我们需要做这些其他事情，但我们想再次回到一些最初令人兴奋的项目类型工作。
And that's why we're embarking on that.
这就是我们开始这样做的原因。
Um, we, world Health Organization is actually doing a critical review of Coco Leaf again, to consider removing it as a globally banned substance and returning it back into potentially the food supply.
嗯，我们世界卫生组织实际上正在再次对可可叶进行严格审查，考虑将其作为全球禁用物质去除，并将其重新返回到潜在的食品供应中。
Um, which it's a very nutritious plant.
嗯，这是一种非常有营养的植物。
It's utilized by, um, tribes in the, in the high mountains of high elevations in South America where they don't have much dairy in their diet.
它被南美高海拔地区的部落所利用，那里的饮食中没有太多乳制品。
There's tons of calcium in, in this, um.
这里面有大量的钙，嗯。
In the coa leaf, there's tons of vitamins.
椰叶中含有大量维生素。
It's so nutrient rich, um, and, and just a remarkable plant in and of itself.
它营养丰富，嗯，而且，它本身就是一种非凡的植物。
But again, we've forgotten about this because we found this, you know, smoking bullet, uh, cocaine.
但我们又忘记了这一点，因为我们发现了这个，你知道，确凿无疑的子弹，呃，可卡因。
And we don't want people to mess with that plant because there's a chance they're gonna get that out of it.
我们不希望人们弄乱那棵植物，因为他们有可能把它弄出来。
And this has been a somewhat of a cautionary tale bringing this back to Kratom because what we're seeing now is these kratom derived products where they're actually taking compounds that are rich in the naturally occurring leaf, and they're manipulating these into very potent opioids.
这对卡痛来说是一个警示性的故事，因为我们现在看到的是这些卡痛衍生产品，它们实际上提取了富含天然叶子的化合物，并将这些化合物加工成非常有效的阿片类药物。
They're chemically changing these molecules.
他们正在化学改变这些分子。
Um, and these are now products that are out in the market that are available easily purchasable.
嗯，这些现在都是市场上可以轻松购买的产品。
Um, and unfortunately in the same places you can buy, the more, you know, benign leaf, if you will.
嗯，不幸的是，在同样的地方，你可以买到更多，你知道，良性的叶子，如果你愿意的话。
And it's not benign.
而且这不是良性的。
And please don't think that I'm saying crate 'em as benign at all, because the leaf material can be dangerous.
请不要认为我说的是把它们装在箱子里，因为它们是无害的，因为叶子材料可能是危险的。
And we know that people have problems with even just the leaf material over time.
我们知道，随着时间的推移，即使只是叶子材料，人们也会遇到问题。
And so we don't understand where those things come from.
所以我们不明白这些东西从哪里来。
Uh, we don't have a good scientific history of, of how that evolves.
呃，我们没有很好的科学史来说明它是如何演变的。
But what we do know is that.
但我们所知道的是。
If we go down the same pathway that we have for things like identification of morphine, identification of co, of cocaine, to a product that we started from nature again, Creo, uh, and now we're whittling down and figuring out, actually it's a metabolite in our bodies.
如果我们沿着与吗啡、可卡因的鉴定相同的途径，到我们再次从自然界开始的产品，Creo，呃，现在我们正在削减并弄清楚，实际上它是我们体内的一种代谢物。
It's a, a, a metabolite controversially that may or may not exist in the plant we've never found.
这是一种有争议的代谢物，它可能存在于我们从未发现的植物中，也可能不存在。
With all the work that we've done, um, with expert biosynthetic, um, biosynthetic, uh, plant folks, we've never found enzymes that will produce this compound.
通过我们与生物合成专家、嗯、生物合成、呃、植物界人士所做的所有工作，我们从未发现能够产生这种化合物的酶。
Seven hydroxy mitro gyan.
七羟基米特罗吉安。
And that's a metabolite of Mitro gyan, which Mitro gyan is the major alkaloid within the plant, uh, raum.
这是 Mitro gyan 的代谢产物，Mitro gyan 是植物中的主要生物碱，呃，raum。
And as I mentioned, there's more than 20 alkaloids within this plant.
正如我提到的，这种植物中含有 20 多种生物碱。
And I, I, I really wanna come back to this discussion about the differences in some of these alkaloids because they're, they're very, very different.
我，我，我真的想回到关于这些生物碱中的差异的讨论，因为它们非常非常不同。
I, I, I look at this plant as almost a pharmaceutical shotgun.
我，我，我把这种植物看作几乎是一把制药霰弹枪。
It's got different alkaloids that are targeting different systems in our body, and this is what makes Creto.
它含有不同的生物碱，针对我们体内的不同系统，这就是 Creto 的成分。
Different, you refer to it in the past as it's opioid, but it's different opioid.
不同的是，你过去称它为阿片类药物，但它是不同的阿片类药物。
Right.
正确的。
It's a different, because it's interacting with multiple other systems in our brains.
它是不同的，因为它与我们大脑中的多个其他系统相互作用。
And so we need to come back and, and revisit that.
因此，我们需要回来重新审视这一点。
But before we do that, what we know is that this seven hydroxy mitro gy in this metabolite that our bodies produced naturally from the major alkaloid is being chemically produced now and sold in commerce.
但在我们这样做之前，我们知道的是，我们的身体从主要生物碱中自然产生的这种代谢物中的七羟基线粒体现在正在通过化学方法生产并在商业上出售。
And the, these are nowra derived products or isolates or synthetically derived products.
而且，这些现在是衍生产品或分离物或合成衍生产品。
Um, we know that that molecule is pure opioid in its activity.
嗯，我们知道该分子的活性是纯阿片类药物。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Chris McCurdy: It only interacts with opioid receptors.
Chris McCurdy：它只与阿片受体相互作用。
Andrew Huberman: You said these are crem derived or crate isolates.
Andrew Huberman：你说这些是乳脂衍生的或板条箱分离的。
If they're going to experiment with or use crate products, they need to pay attention to serving size.
如果他们要尝试或使用板条箱产品，他们需要注意份量。
Chris McCurdy: Yeah.
克里斯·麦柯迪：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And also pay attention to whether or not the product is, contains crem derived products within it, or crem isolates, because those more closely mimic powerful opioids.
Andrew Huberman：还要注意产品中是否含有乳膏衍生产品或乳膏分离物，因为它们更接近模仿强效阿片类药物。
A pure drug.
纯药物。
Right.
正确的。
A pure drug.
纯药物。
And I actually am of the belief that many people taking Krato products are not aware that they're not taking the leaf type product.
事实上，我相信许多服用 Krato 产品的人并没有意识到他们服用的不是叶型产品。
Correct.
正确的。
Even if they're drinking it, they, they, it's because we just call it one thing.
即使他们喝它，他们，他们，那是因为我们只是称其为一件事。
Chris McCurdy: I agree.
克里斯·麦柯迪：我同意。
And that's where, you know, we've, we've, we've published commentaries.
你知道，我们就是在那里发表评论的。
Um, on this because we felt it's just really important to get this message out.
嗯，因为我们觉得传达这个信息非常重要。
And it's important to get this message out to the medical community because the medical community, um, that are dealing with patients humans firsthand, they show up in an emergency department.
向医学界传达这一信息很重要，因为医学界，嗯，直接与人类患者打交道，他们出现在急诊室。
Um, you know, they, they don't know to ask, did you take leaf?
嗯，你知道，他们，他们不知道问，你拿叶子了吗？
Did you take, uh, uh, extract?
你有没有提取，呃，呃，提取物？
Did you take a concentrate?
你有集中注意力吗？
What, what product is it that you actually take?
什么，您实际服用的是什么产品？
Because most people, if they know, if someone was with them and they got intoxicated by a product, they're, they're probably just gonna generically say it's Kratom.
因为大多数人，如果他们知道，如果有人和他们在一起并且他们被某种产品陶醉，他们可能只是笼统地说这是卡痛。
They're not gonna specify what, what it was.
他们不会具体说明那是什么。
And so this is a big thing that we're trying to, as many of the researchers in the community are really trying to get out, is this differentiation of not all Kratom is the same.
因此，这是我们正在努力做的一件大事，正如社区中的许多研究人员真正试图摆脱的那样，并非所有卡痛的这种差异都是相同的。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Right.
正确的。
Well, fortunately, uh, we have the ear, um, on this podcast from some of the folks like Jay Charya, NIH and, and others who are, um, thinking seriously about revising, uh, laws around packaging of, uh, food and drugs.
嗯，幸运的是，呃，我们在这个播客上听到了 Jay Charya、NIH 等人的声音，还有其他人，嗯，正在认真考虑修订……呃，有关食品和药品包装的法律。
Um, I don't have any direct relationship to them, but we have their ears.
嗯，我和他们没有任何直接关系，但我们有他们的耳朵。
So, um, uh, I think one thing that I can't imagine anyone would oppose would be the careful.
所以，嗯，呃，我认为我无法想象有人会反对的一件事就是小心。
Wording of warnings about this contains kratom derived products or kratom isolates in the same way that, um, you'd like, you know, cannabis is legal in many places now, or at least decriminalized, as I learned from a guest on this podcast who's expert in, uh, cannabis science.
有关此内容的警告措辞包含卡痛衍生产品或卡痛分离物，就像，嗯，你想，你知道，大麻现在在许多地方是合法的，或者至少是合法化的，正如我从本播客上一位大麻科学专家的嘉宾那里了解到的那样。
Um, people who smoke cannabis are pretty good at regulating the dose, um, based on number and duration of inhales.
嗯，吸食大麻的人很擅长根据吸入的次数和持续时间来调节剂量。
But people that take edibles are often the ones that end up, uh, in psychotic episodes, um, or anxiety attacks due to overconsumption, because you can eat something very fast before it hits you.
但是吃东西的人往往会因为过度消费而导致，呃，精神病发作，或者焦虑症，因为你可以在东西袭击你之前很快吃东西。
Correct.
正确的。
There's like this, there's this delay.
就是这样，有这样的延迟。
I want to parse each of the things that you raised, but I think there's likely to be a couple of basic questions that are on people's minds that maybe we can, uh, tick off really quick as we mm-hmm.
我想解析你提出的每一件事，但我认为人们可能会想到一些基本问题，也许我们可以，呃，很快就解决掉，因为我们嗯嗯。
As we head into that.
当我们进入这个话题时。
And I know it might be hard to answer these with a yes no, so feel free to say maybe, or it depends.
我知道可能很难用“是”、“否”来回答这些问题，所以请随意说“也许”，或者视情况而定。
Kids, 18 or younger, avoid, don't avoid, or it depends when it comes to kratom and, and here we're talking about leaf kratom or kratom products, and we're talking about kids in the us so we're, we're not, and, and in Europe we're talking about outside of Malaysia, where they have a, have a more innate, um, historical understanding of, of the, of the plant.
18岁或以下的孩子，要避免，不要避免，或者这取决于卡痛叶，这里我们谈论的是卡痛叶或卡痛叶产品，我们谈论的是美国的孩子，所以我们是，我们不是，而且，在欧洲，我们谈论的是马来西亚以外的地方，他们对卡痛叶有一种更天生的，嗯，对植物的历史理解。
Chris McCurdy: I'll preface it by saying, I am not familiar with anybody young using this in Southeast Asia in a traditional sense.
Chris McCurdy：我首先要说的是，我不熟悉在东南亚使用传统意义上的任何年轻人。
Right.
正确的。
Well, that's good to know.
嗯，很高兴知道这一点。
So it's, it's mostly used by people that are laborers that are out.
所以，它主要是由外出务工的人使用。
Doing this, you know, more adult if you will.
如果你愿意的话，这样做就更成熟了。
Most of the regulations that have been drafted and put into place in some states are either limiting age of 18 and older, or 21 and older.
一些州起草并实施的大多数法规要么限制 18 岁及以上，要么限制 21 岁及以上。
Andrew Huberman: Do you agree with that, Chad?
安德鲁·休伯曼：查德，你同意这一点吗？
I agree
我同意
Chris McCurdy: with that from the standpoint that the brain is still developing until we're 24, 25.
Chris McCurdy：从这样的角度来看，直到我们 24 岁、25 岁之前，大脑仍在发育。
We know from studies with cannabis that, you know, that can slow brain development and people can have lower IQs if they start at a younger age versus people that never smoked and develop their brain fully.
我们从大麻研究中得知，大麻会减缓大脑发育，而且与从不吸烟且大脑充分发育的人相比，如果人们在较年轻的时候开始吸烟，他们的智商可能会较低。
So we have no idea what the impact is of crad on developing brain.
所以我们不知道 crad 对发育中的大脑有什么影响。
A lot of people will hate me for saying this, but my feeling is, you know, the drinking age should be 24, 25.
很多人会讨厌我这么说，但我的感觉是，你知道，饮酒年龄应该是24、25岁。
Just like when your insurance rates go down for your car, it's 25.
就像你的汽车保险费率下降时一样，降为 25 美元。
It's because you have a prefrontal cortex.
这是因为你有前额皮质。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Right?
正确的？
And I think when you hijack that system with any substance that can be psychoactive, you run into problems.
我认为，当你用任何可能具有精神活性的物质劫持该系统时，你就会遇到问题。
And so the best recommendations are, in my opinion, getting all the way up to that 24, 25.
因此，在我看来，最好的建议是一直到 24、25。
But I would be okay with people saying 18 or 21, um, because that seems to be more acceptable in society as to where we've set barriers in, in, you know, historical precedent.
但我同意人们说 18 岁或 21 岁，嗯，因为这似乎在社会上更容易被接受，因为我们在历史先例中设置了障碍。
So, yeah, I don't, I, I, I.
所以，是的，我不，我，我，我。
Have great fear, um, as a parent that my own child would go into one of these gas stations not knowing what, what they're getting, because one of their buddies told 'em, Hey, this is cool.
嗯，作为一名家长，我非常担心我自己的孩子会走进这些加油站，而不知道他们在得到什么，因为他们的一个朋友告诉他们，嘿，这很酷。
Try it.
尝试一下。
Um, you know, and, and consume it.
嗯，你知道，并且，并且消费它。
And, and something, something happens.
并且，有些事情发生了。
Um, and, and as you're well aware, there's a, there's a big difference between someone who's naive to any substance and takes it for the first time, um, versus someone who's gained some experience, um, with those substances.
嗯，而且，正如你很清楚的那样，对任何物质都是天真的并且第一次服用它的人，与那些已经获得了一些经验的人，嗯，使用这些物质之间有很大的区别。
And so, uh, young people are, again, because there's not that executive control of the prefrontal cortex are, are much more likely to take those risks, but not because they're being dumb.
所以，呃，年轻人，再次，因为没有前额皮质的执行控制，所以更有可能承担这些风险，但不是因为他们愚蠢。
They just don't, they don't understand,
他们只是不明白，他们不明白，
Andrew Huberman: well, they're not getting the information and correct.
Andrew Huberman：嗯，他们没有得到正确的信息。
And thanks to you, they're getting the information.
多亏了你，他们才得到了信息。
Now, the second cohort that I'll ask about would be, you know, people, let's just say, you know, 18 to, uh, 25 and older who are seeking a caffeine, um, stimulant like effect.
现在，我要问的第二个群体是，你知道，人们，我们只是说，你知道，18 岁到，呃，25 岁及以上，他们正在寻求咖啡因，嗯，类似兴奋剂的效果。
Um, assuming they can get a hold of the more plant-like products, so the, uh, you know, where it, it's not a crem derived product or isolate.
嗯，假设他们可以获得更多类似植物的产品，那么，呃，你知道，它不是奶油衍生产品或分离物。
Are most people able to use a crem product in the same way that they use caffeine?
大多数人能够像使用咖啡因一样使用乳霜产品吗？
So on a daily basis, but.
所以每天都这样，但是。
Were they, to not be able to get it?
难道他们就无法得到它吗？
They, they would have a couple days of, of mild discomfort, but they'd be okay.
他们，他们会有几天的轻微不适，但他们会没事的。
They could drink caffeine instead and get over the, the hump, so to speak.
可以这么说，他们可以喝咖啡因来克服困难。
Chris McCurdy: Yeah.
克里斯·麦柯迪：是的。
So it's a, that's a definite maybe question.
所以这是一个肯定可能的问题。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
So it depends on the person.
所以这取决于人。
It depends on the person, as, you know, that we're all so different and we all respond differently to different or the same thing.
这取决于人，因为，你知道，我们都很不同，我们对不同或相同的事情都有不同的反应。
Um, but I, I think that, let's just say, um, the, the most frequent thing I hear from people that are using creto and particularly Creto Leaf products on a regular basis, they always say less is more.
嗯，但是我，我认为，嗯，我从经常使用 Creto，特别是 Creto Leaf 产品的人们那里听到的最常见的一句话是，他们总是说少即是多。
They always say that the lower amounts they take, they seem to derive more benefit from it.
他们总是说，他们服用的剂量越低，他们似乎从中获得的好处就越多。
And I've, I've struggled with that from the standpoint of just understanding pharmacology and understanding tolerance and understanding, you know, after you've been taking something for so long, you naturally think you've gotta take more to, to benefit from it.
从理解药理学、理解耐受性和理解的角度来看，我一直在努力解决这个问题，你知道，在你服用某种东西这么长时间之后，你自然会认为你必须服用更多，才能从中受益。
And I think it comes again, back to the group of users that we talked about.
我认为它又回到了我们谈论的用户群体。
What is their goal at the end of the day?
他们最终的目标是什么？
But if they're just taking it as this sort of.
但如果他们只是把它当作这样的话。
Mood lifting, elevating, um, energy derived, uh, thing then, then the recommendation that, and I would say this for anything is stay low and stay slow and, and, you know, never increase things.
情绪提升，提升，嗯，能量衍生，呃，那么，然后的建议，我想说的是，任何事情都是保持低沉，保持缓慢，而且，你知道，永远不要增加事情。
What I've been told, 'cause again, this is not something that I use, I is, is that, um, people benefit from this on a consistent basis.
有人告诉我，因为这不是我使用的东西，我是，嗯，人们持续地从中受益。
Just like most people benefit from a cup of coffee or two a day.
就像大多数人每天喝一两杯咖啡一样受益。
Um, and yeah, if you go a couple days without it, you're gonna have a headache.
嗯，是的，如果你几天不使用它，你就会头痛。
Where people start to develop problems is if they are using this for, um, pain treatment or something else like that, and they initially start out, and this is great, everything's good.
人们开始出现问题的地方是，如果他们用它来治疗疼痛或其他类似的东西，他们一开始就开始，这很好，一切都很好。
It does seem that a tolerance develops to the pain relieving properties of this.
似乎确实对其缓解疼痛的特性产生了耐受性。
We don't know what that timescale looks like, so we have no idea and it, it'll differ for everyone.
我们不知道这个时间表是什么样的，所以我们不知道，每个人都会有所不同。
Um, we've not done these studies in animals to tell you that, uh, you know, a mouse or a rat is going to take this much time and therefore we can.
嗯，我们在动物身上进行的这些研究并不是为了告诉你，呃，你知道，小鼠或大鼠需要花费这么多时间，因此我们可以。
You know, scale this to what it would be on a human.
你知道，将其扩展到人类身上。
We've not even done those types of studies to understand, but I can tell you anecdotally, from talking to people, that's what happens.
我们甚至还没有做过这些类型的研究来理解，但我可以通过与人们交谈的轶事告诉你，这就是发生的事情。
They'll, they'll develop these, these tolerance and they'll suddenly have to take more to get that relief.
他们会，他们会发展这些，这些耐受性，他们会突然不得不采取更多措施来获得缓解。
And as we take more of anything, we get closer and closer to a problem because it's not the benefit that we're getting that generally gives us the problem.
当我们获得更多东西时，我们就会越来越接近问题，因为通常不会给我们带来问题。
It's something off target or off, off of that original frame that we're focused on that gives us into the problems.
这是偏离目标或偏离的东西，脱离了我们所关注的原始框架，这给我们带来了问题。
Um, you know, opioids, for just a clear example, opioids are fantastic pain relievers.
嗯，你知道，阿片类药物，举一个明显的例子，阿片类药物是极好的止痛药。
But humans develop tolerance to the pain relief properties of opioids quickly.
但人类很快就会对阿片类药物的止痛特性产生耐受性。
Unfortunately, we don't develop tolerance to the constipating effects and the respiratory depressive effects of these as well.
不幸的是，我们对这些药物的便秘作用和呼吸抑制作用也没有产生耐受性。
And those are the two things that limit, um, clinical utilization of opioids.
这些是限制阿片类药物临床使用的两件事。
If you're getting constipated, then we have to stop using opioids from a clinical standpoint to treat your pain because it's you, you can get too stopped up and this could be worse.
如果您便秘，那么从临床角度来看，我们必须停止使用阿片类药物来治疗您的疼痛，因为是您自己，您可能会便秘，情况可能会更糟。
Same thing with respirations.
呼吸也一样。
Of course, the mo main reason that individuals die from opioid overdoses because they stop breathing.
当然，人们死于阿片类药物过量的最主要原因是他们停止呼吸。
Um, and that respiratory depression is nothing to do with the analgesia, has nothing to do with the pain relief.
嗯，呼吸抑制与镇痛无关，与疼痛缓解无关。
It's just this off offside target.
就是这个越位目标。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
It's these receptors in the brainstem.
就是脑干中的这些受体。
I mean, I think that's right.
我的意思是，我认为这是对的。
Um, it raises the question whether or not Kratom can cause respiratory, uh, suppression.
嗯，这提出了一个问题，卡痛是否会导致呼吸，呃，抑制。
Chris McCurdy: It's a good, it's a good segue to our paper that should be coming out in the next week or two.
克里斯·麦柯迪：这是一个很好的延续，我们的论文应该在接下来的一两周内发表。
Oh, great.
哦，太好了。
Well, since it's already
好吧，既然已经
Andrew Huberman: accepted, uh, yes or no,
Andrew Huberman：接受，呃，是或否，
Chris McCurdy: it's complicated.
克里斯·麦柯迪：这很复杂。
Is it dose dependent?
是否有剂量依赖性？
So, so I will say this in.
所以，所以我会说这个。
Kratom as a whole.
卡痛作为一个整体。
We've not studied in respiratory depression.
我们还没有研究呼吸抑制。
So the products that are in the marketplace, we don't know, I don't know an answer to this.
所以市场上的产品我们不知道，我不知道这个问题的答案。
It's long been said that there's much less respiratory depression from Kratom than there is from clinically or illicit opioids.
长期以来，人们一直认为卡痛引起的呼吸抑制比临床或非法阿片类药物要少得多。
I think that's pretty well accepted in a anecdotal way, scientifically, we can't say definitively what that is.
我认为从科学角度来说，这已经被很好地接受了，但我们不能明确地说那是什么。
The paper that we have that's coming out.
我们的论文即将出版。
Um, and it should be in the Journal of Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics.
嗯，它应该发表在《药理学和实验治疗学杂志》上。
Um, it's already on bio archive right now, but bio archive is not a peer reviewed site.
嗯，它现在已经在生物存档上，但生物存档不是同行评审的网站。
Uh, we just wanted to get this information out as soon as possible 'cause we think it is vitally important for public safety.
呃，我们只是想尽快公布这些信息，因为我们认为这对公共安全至关重要。
Um, these seven hydroxy mitro, gyan, um, products that are now being sold, as I mentioned as semi synthetics or isolates, um, are actually causing respiratory depression equivalent to opioids.
嗯，这七种羟基米托，gyan，嗯，现在正在销售的产品，正如我提到的半合成物或分离物，嗯，实际上会引起相当于阿片类药物的呼吸抑制。
Andrew Huberman: Wow.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哇。
Okay.
好的。
So these are the, the, um, the specific alkaloid metabolites.
所以这些是，嗯，特定的生物碱代谢物。
So to back up again, folks, the raum contains, uh, somewhere between 20 and 40 alkaloids.
伙计们，再次重申一下，拉姆含有，呃，大约 20 到 40 种生物碱。
Um, one of them is most abundant.
嗯，其中之一是最丰富的。
The metabolite of that, um, is what's active in the body.
它的代谢物，嗯，是体内活跃的东西。
Chem chemists have figured out how to manufacture that metabolite.
化学家已经找到了制造这种代谢物的方法。
People are taking products of the pure metabolite mixed in with some other things, and that can cause respiratory depression, um, on par with, uh, opioids.
人们正在服用与其他一些东西混合的纯代谢产物，这会导致呼吸抑制，嗯，与呃阿片类药物一样。
Chris McCurdy: It's in, in a rat.
Chris McCurdy：它在老鼠体内。
So I will, I will caveat that, but you know, it's one of these things that we, we talk about all the time.
所以我会，我会警告这一点，但你知道，这是我们一直在谈论的事情之一。
Sure.
当然。
If it walks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, if it looks like a duck, it's a duck.
如果它走路像鸭子，如果它嘎嘎叫像鸭子，如果它看起来像鸭子，它就是鸭子。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
I think when it comes to translating animal studies to humans, it, um, it's hard often to take a dosage by kilogram of body weight and translate 'cause metabolism is different, et cetera.
我认为当涉及到将动物研究转化为人类时，嗯，通常很难按公斤体重服用剂量并进行转化，因为新陈代谢不同，等等。
However, I think when it comes to neural circuitry, which is what we're talking about when we talk about respiration, these two nuclei in the brain, pre bottinger and perfa nucleus, which have abundant receptors for these things that control breathing.
然而，我认为当谈到神经回路时，也就是我们在谈论呼吸时所谈论的，大脑中的这两个核，前博廷格核和普法核，它们对控制呼吸的这些东西有丰富的受体。
Um, the, that machinery is so highly conserved from mice to rats to non-human primates, as we always say, rat, cat, monkey bat, um, and human, um, that it would be, it would be remarkable and extraordinary to, for the system to work much differently.
嗯，从老鼠到非人类灵长类动物，这种机器是如此高度保守，就像我们常说的，老鼠、猫、猴蝙蝠、嗯，还有人类，嗯，如果系统的工作方式有很大不同，那将是非常了不起的。
No, and I, in human,
不，而我，作为人类，
Chris McCurdy: and I think in humans, it is gonna have exactly the same effect, you know, but I can't say that definitively, and it's not an ethical thing to really do.
克里斯·麦柯迪：我认为对人类来说，它会产生完全相同的效果，但我不能明确地说，而且这并不是一件道德的事情。
Right.
正确的。
But we know that that effect even in the animals, is completely reversible with Narcan or Naloxone.
但我们知道，即使在动物身上，这种效应也可以用纳洛酮或纳洛酮完全逆转。
So it's, it's.
原来如此，原来如此。
Also highly opioid, um, receptor involved.
也高度涉及阿片类药物，嗯，受体。
Andrew Huberman: I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors function.
Andrew Huberman：我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一。
Last year, I became a function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing function.
去年，在寻找最全面的实验室测试功能方法后，我成为了功能成员。
Provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health.
提供 100 多项高级实验室测试，让您全面了解整个身体健康状况。
This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more.
此快照为您提供有关心脏健康、激素健康、免疫功能、营养水平等方面的见解。
They've also recently added tests for toxins such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics and tests for PFAS or forever.
他们最近还增加了毒素测试，例如有害塑料中的 BPA 暴露以及 PFAS 或永久测试。
Chemicals function.
化学功能。
Not only provides testing of over a hundred biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas.
它不仅提供对您的身心健康至关重要的一百多种生物标志物的测试，而且还分析这些结果并提供相关领域专家的顶级医生的见解。
For example, in one of my first tests with function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood function.
例如，在我的第一次功能测试中，我得知我的血液功能中汞含量升高。
Not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption.
不仅帮助我发现了这一点，还提供了如何最好地降低我的汞含量的见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼消费。
I'd been eating a lot of tuna while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC and acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification, and I should say by taking a second function test that approach worked.
我吃了很多金枪鱼，同时也努力吃更多的绿叶蔬菜，并补充 NAC 和乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒，我应该说，通过进行第二次功能测试，该方法有效。
Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important.
全面的血液检测至关重要。
There's so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test.
有很多与您的心理和身体健康相关的事情只能通过血液检查来检测。
The problem is blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated.
问题是血液检测一直非常昂贵且复杂。
In contrast, I've been super impressed by function, simplicity, and at the level of cost it is very affordable.
相比之下，我对它的功能、简单性印象非常深刻，而且就成本而言，它非常实惠。
As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board.
因此，我决定加入他们的科学顾问委员会。
And I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.
我很高兴他们赞助这个播客。
If you'd like to try function, you can go to function health.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 function，可以访问 function health.com/huberman。
Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to huberman podcast listeners.
Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等候名单，但他们正在为 huberman 播客听众提供早期访问服务。
Again, that's function health.com/huberman to get early access to function.
同样，这是 health.com/huberman 的功能，可以尽早使用该功能。
So let me ask you this.
那么让我问你这个问题。
If I were in charge of the FDA and I'm not, um, that makes two of us.
如果我负责 FDA，而我不是，嗯，那就是我们两个人了。
But if I were, I would say, okay, based on everything I've learned thus far, um, the plant based crate products that where it's still close to the plant pro, it seemed like it's a maybe scenario, kids and people up to 18, maybe 21 or even 25.
但如果我是，我会说，好吧，根据我迄今为止所学到的一切，嗯，基于植物的板条箱产品仍然接近植物专业版，这似乎是一个可能的场景，孩子和18岁以下的人，也许21岁甚至25岁。
It's a hard, no, stay away from it.
这很难，不，远离它。
People older than that are going to have a varied response.
年龄超过这个年龄的人会有不同的反应。
Could be like a cup of strong coffee, um, or two, or an energy drink or two.
可能是一两杯浓咖啡，或者一两杯能量饮料。
I mean, some of these energy drinks now, I mean, they pack a serious punch.
我的意思是，现在有些能量饮料，我的意思是，它们具有很强的冲击力。
Oh yeah.
哦，是的。
And you look at the total caffeine count and it's not that high.
你看看咖啡因的总量，它并没有那么高。
But then you look at the serving number and you look at the other things that are in there, right, that serve to amplify the, the neuromodulator effect, like increased dopamine, epinephrine.
但是，然后你看看服务数量，再看看里面的其他东西，对吧，这些东西可以放大神经调节剂的作用，比如增加多巴胺、肾上腺素。
I mean, they've got razin, um, alpha GPC.
我的意思是，他们有 razin，嗯，alpha GPC。
They've got, um, things to enhance the serotonin pathway.
他们有，嗯，可以增强血清素途径的东西。
They've got things to take away the jitters like altheine plus the caffeine, right?
他们有一些东西可以消除紧张，比如阿尔海因加咖啡因，对吧？
Plus some additional stimulants.
再加上一些额外的兴奋剂。
And pretty soon you go, yeah, the caffeine count isn't that high, but what you've got is a, is a neuromodulator cocktail in there.
很快你就会发现，是的，咖啡因含量并没有那么高，但你得到的是一种神经调节剂鸡尾酒。
So, um.
所以，嗯。
You'd say, okay, for adults, use with caution, figure out minimal effective dose and be aware that it could be habit forming in a serious way.
你会说，好吧，对于成年人来说，谨慎使用，找出最小有效剂量，并意识到这可能会严重养成习惯。
Something like that.
类似的事情。
But then I would probably also create a third category, which is, and I'm gonna get the pronunciation wrong, but that seven hydroxy metabolite of mi mitro Mitchell ine
但我可能还会创建第三个类别，即，我会发音错误，但 mi mitro Mitchell ine 的七羟基代谢物
Chris McCurdy: mi,
克里斯·麦柯迪：我，
Andrew Huberman: yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
GY nine.
吉伊九。
Um,
嗯，
Chris McCurdy: or ine some
克里斯·麦柯迪：或者是一些
Andrew Huberman: people metra seven hydroxy ine.
Andrew Huberman：人们体内含有七羟氨酸。
Um, tragedy.
嗯，悲剧。
Janine Tragedy.
珍妮的悲剧。
Okay.
好的。
Should be, um, if I were FDA commissioner, I'd say this just sounds all bad.
应该是，嗯，如果我是 FDA 专员，我会说这听起来很糟糕。
Just flat out Make it illegal.
直接将其定为非法。
Chris McCurdy: Yeah.
克里斯·麦柯迪：是的。
Mean, um,
意思是，嗯，
Andrew Huberman: so we're not making krato illegal.
Andrew Huberman：所以我们不会将 krato 定为非法。
You're making the, the opioid like derivative, uh, illegal or extremely hard to get.
你正在制造类似阿片类药物的衍生物，呃，非法或极难获得。
Or maybe you need some additional, um, barriers there.
或者也许你需要一些额外的，嗯，障碍。
Why isn't it that way?
为什么不是这样呢？
I mean, why did we sit down here today?
我的意思是，我们今天为什么坐在这里？
Me ready to ask you Raum be illegal, right?
我准备问你 Raum 是非法的，对吗？
When we're really talking about two different use categories, younger and adult people, and we're talking about basically two completely different compounds.
当我们真正谈论两种不同的使用类别（年轻人和成年人）时，我们基本上谈论的是两种完全不同的化合物。
Chris McCurdy: Yeah.
克里斯·麦柯迪：是的。
Well, even very different products, period.
好吧，即使是非常不同的产品，时期也是如此。
Right.
正确的。
So, uh, it's, it's, it's extremely complicated because under the FDA's dietary ingredient rules.
所以，呃，这，这，这非常复杂，因为根据 FDA 的饮食成分规则。
A metabolite of a dietary ingredient can also be considered a dietary ingredient.
膳食成分的代谢物也可以被视为膳食成分。
Andrew Huberman: I see.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我明白了。
Okay.
好的。
So
所以
Chris McCurdy: this is kind of the loophole, if you will, that's allowing this to be in the marketplace.
Chris McCurdy：如果你愿意的话，这是一种漏洞，它允许它进入市场。
But there's several group of advocacy, um, nonprofit organizations out there.
但是有几个倡导团体，嗯，非营利组织。
Um, there's American Crem Association, there's a global Crem coalition, there's the holistic Alternative Recovery, um, group.
嗯，有美国 Crem 协会、全球 Crem 联盟、整体替代恢复组织。
Uh,
呃，
Andrew Huberman: what's the role?
安德鲁·胡伯曼：这个角色是什么？
Are these people who are looking at this as a, as a good alternative to opioid abuse?
这些人是否将此视为阿片类药物滥用的良好替代方案？
Chris McCurdy: So in, in many of the cases, yes.
克里斯·麦柯迪：所以在很多情况下，是的。
All of the cases, yes.
所有的情况，是的。
So I should say that, um, the, the American Kram Association and Global, uh, KRA Coalition are much more, um, advocating for science-based information and knowledge around creto and creto products and putting actual guidelines in place that will give some regulation to the industry, um, that they claim the FDA is is not doing right now.
所以我应该说，嗯，美国克拉姆协会和全球，嗯，KRA 联盟更多的是，嗯，倡导有关 Creto 和 Creto 产品的基于科学的信息和知识，并制定实际的指导方针，为该行业提供一些监管，嗯，他们声称 FDA 目前没有这样做。
The FDA is just letting it exist in the marketplace.
FDA 只是让它存在于市场上。
In whatever form, shape, size it wants to.
以任何它想要的形式、形状、大小。
Um, some of these groups are, are really trying to put guardrails around what a product should be, what should be on the label, what a serving size should be, what limits of alkaloid content should be.
嗯，其中一些团体确实在试图围绕产品应该是什么、标签上应该写什么、份量应该是什么、生物碱含量的限制应该是多少设置防护栏。
Um, there's this other group, the Heart Group, which is really, uh, a proponent for this seven hydroxy product and saying that it's out there to reduce harm.
嗯，还有另一个团体，心脏团体，它实际上是这种七羟基产品的支持者，并说它是为了减少伤害。
It's out there to help people benefit from a product that is not an opioid, right?
它的目的是帮助人们从非阿片类药物的产品中受益，对吗？
But it is purely an opioid, but it's not a prescription opioid and they're saying it's reducing harm.
但它纯粹是一种阿片类药物，但不是处方阿片类药物，他们说它可以减少伤害。
Wait, I don't know that anybody has evidence to demonstrate that yet.
等等，我不知道有人有证据证明这一点。
There's no solid evidence.
没有确凿的证据。
There's some, again, anecdotal evidence.
再次有一些轶事证据。
They released a statement recently, um, suggesting that there's no mention of these in the FDA's databases of adverse events, the fears database.
他们最近发布了一份声明，嗯，暗示 FDA 的不良事件数据库，恐惧数据库中没有提到这些。
Um, but then again, it makes you wonder if these products have only been in the marketplace for a couple of years, um, is there even a coding to put it into the fear database?
嗯，但话又说回来，这让你想知道这些产品是否只在市场上出现了几年，嗯，是否有一个编码可以将其放入恐惧数据库中？
So that can even be recognized
这样甚至可以被识别
Andrew Huberman: if somebody were to take, um.
Andrew Huberman：如果有人接受，嗯。
A crem product, either an isolate or the plant product and then drink alcohol, are they at greater risk for, uh, dying, uh, from respiratory failure in the same way that if somebody takes an opioid and drinks, um, they can die?
奶油产品，无论是分离物还是植物产品，然后喝酒，他们是否面临更大的风险，呃，死亡，呃，呼吸衰竭，就像有人服用阿片类药物并喝酒，呃，他们会死一样？
Yeah.
是的。
Actually, sadly, I know a lot of cases of this, of people who even took a prescription opioid a day before, um, uh, an afternoon or night of drinking.
事实上，可悲的是，我知道很多这样的案例，有人甚至在喝酒前一天，嗯，呃，下午或晚上服用处方阿片类药物。
And we're pretty good drinkers.
我们都是很好的饮酒者。
If I'm, if I'm gonna say it wasn't, it was not, uh, someone real close to me, but from what I understand, we're good drinkers and then end up dying in their, typically in their sleep, in their sleep after the night of drinking.
如果我是，如果我要说不是，那不是，呃，某个离我很近的人，但据我了解，我们都是很好的饮酒者，然后最终在他们的，通常是在他们的睡眠中，在喝酒后的睡眠中死去。
This is not uncommon.
这并不罕见。
Yeah.
是的。
And this is independent of all the fentanyl issues, correct?
这与所有芬太尼问题无关，对吗？
Right.
正确的。
Correct.
正确的。
Um, does Kratom have the same potential risk?
嗯，Kratom 有同样的潜在风险吗？
Chris McCurdy: So Kratom as a whole, I, it, it's hard to say.
克里斯·麦柯迪：所以卡痛作为一个整体，我，它，很难说。
No, nobody's done any studies combining this.
不，没有人做过任何将其结合起来的研究。
In fact, interestingly enough, the studies that have been done with alcohol are looking at reduction of alcohol intake.
事实上，有趣的是，对酒精进行的研究正在着眼于减少酒精摄入量。
So it has been reported anecdotally, again, that Kratom actually reduces alcohol consumption.
因此，再次有传闻称，卡痛实际上减少了饮酒量。
Interesting.
有趣的。
Um, and this has been anecdotally mentioned by many people that use it.
嗯，很多使用它的人都提到过这一点。
Um, you know, I just don't have the interest in drinking anymore, or, or I can have a couple drinks and I'm not trying to get drunk.
嗯，你知道，我只是不再有兴趣喝酒了，或者，或者我可以喝几杯，我不想喝醉。
Now there's a lot to unpack there because there could be all kinds of different things happening.
现在有很多东西需要解开，因为可能会发生各种不同的事情。
Pharmacokinetically, drug interaction wise, if you will, just like you're mentioning, um, there are groups that are funded now, we're not one of them.
从药代动力学方面来说，药物相互作用方面，如果你愿意的话，就像你提到的，嗯，现在有一些团体得到了资助，我们不是其中之一。
Um, from the National Institute of Alcohol Alcoholism, uh, alcohol abuse, um.
嗯，来自国家酒精中毒研究所，呃，酗酒，嗯。
And Iaaa to study specifically, uh, Kratom as a harm reduction agent in alcohol use disorder.
我要专门研究卡痛叶作为酒精使用障碍的减害剂。
Interesting.
有趣的。
Andrew Huberman: Such an interesting molecule, right?
Andrew Huberman：这是一个很有趣的分子，对吧？
Yeah.
是的。
We're talking about a molecule that can be potentially used to help wean people off opioids, maybe even limit alcohol consumption for people, people with alcohol use disorder, what used to be called alcoholism, and at the same time can serve as a stimulant and maybe even an aphrodisiac.
我们谈论的是一种分子，它可以潜在地用来帮助人们戒掉阿片类药物，甚至可以限制人们的饮酒量，即患有酒精使用障碍的人，过去被称为酗酒，同时可以作为兴奋剂，甚至可能是春药。
Is there any, uh, are there any data, excuse me, um, about the binding sites in the brain and some of the pathways that would make this molecule an aphrodisiac?
有没有，呃，有没有任何数据，请问，嗯，关于大脑中的结合位点以及使该分子成为春药的一些途径？
Chris McCurdy: Not specifically.
克里斯·麦柯迪：没有具体的。
So it, you know, I I earlier said it's kind of nature's Viagra, but it's not interacting with the phosphodiesterase pathways and it's not causing vasil dilation that we are aware of, however, which is what, which is what
所以，你知道，我之前说过，它是一种天然的伟哥，但它不与磷酸二酯酶途径相互作用，也不会引起我们意识到的血管扩张，然而，这是什么，这是什么
Andrew Huberman: Viagra basically does.
安德鲁·休伯曼：伟哥基本上可以。
Right.
正确的。
Right.
正确的。
Limits the enzyme that, that, um, uh, that would lead to vasoconstriction.
限制会导致血管收缩的酶。
Correct.
正确的。
Chris McCurdy: Correct.
克里斯·麦柯迪：正确。
So you, you, you have, we don't really have clear evidence of that, and what it, it, it may be is that it's this increased, um, sort of stimulants stamina activity.
所以你，你，你，我们确实没有明确的证据，它，它，它可能是这种增加的，嗯，某种兴奋剂耐力活动。
But, but let's back up to one of the very first goals when we were funded by the National Institute on Drug Abuse to study this.
但是，让我们回到最初的目标之一，当时我们得到了国家药物滥用研究所的资助来研究这一问题。
Um, the, the main question that was asked was.
嗯，被问到的主要问题是。
Can you isolate as many of these 20 to 40 alkaloids as possible?
您能尽可能多地分离出这 20 到 40 种生物碱吗？
Purify them and tell us what each one does individually.
净化它们并告诉我们每个人分别做了什么。
Okay, so the, the easy one to get was mitro.
好的，最容易获得的是 mitro。
And, and, and if you look at the majority of the literature around cred, and there's almost a thousand papers in PubMed now.
而且，如果你看一下有关信用的大多数文献，现在 PubMed 上有近千篇论文。
I looked this morning, uh, just on Kratom.
我今天早上看了，呃，就在 Kratom 上。
We, we account for almost 10% of that from my lab, by the way.
顺便说一句，我们，我们的实验室几乎占了 10%。
Yeah, you guys are prolific.
是的，你们多产。
Um, and the vast majority of the studies that are in the literature now have been done with the major alkaloid, metin, and I always remind my lab and my team and my collaborators, mi, does not equal Kratom.
嗯，现在文献中的绝大多数研究都是用主要的生物碱，metin 完成的，我总是提醒我的实验室、我的团队和我的合作者，mi 并不等于卡痛叶。
Raum is a complex natural product with all these other alkaloids in it.
Raum 是一种复杂的天然产物，其中含有所有这些其他生物碱。
And so let's, I wanted to come back to this, so let's just unpack those alkaloids very quickly.
所以让我们，我想回到这个话题，所以让我们快速地解开这些生物碱的包装。
Um, just to tell you what's going on.
嗯，只是为了告诉你发生了什么事。
So Metin, the major alkaloid actually has affinity for opioid receptors, but very weak affinity and doesn't do much from an analgesia or painkilling perspective, which you would think the major one, that's what it's there for.
因此，Metin 这种主要生物碱实际上对阿片受体有亲和力，但亲和力非常弱，从镇痛或止痛的角度来看并没有多大作用，你会认为这是主要的，这就是它的作用。
That's what's going on.
这就是正在发生的事情。
It also interacts with a couple other important neurotransmitter systems, and there are other alkaloids within the plant that are majorly exposed when you ingest the whole plant product into our bodies that are heavily interacting with serotonergic system.
它还与其他一些重要的神经递质系统相互作用，并且当您将整个植物产品摄入我们的身体时，植物中还有其他生物碱主要暴露出来，这些生物碱与血清素能系统密切相互作用。
So our sort of satiety center, um, our, our mood elevating center, if you will, most of our antidepressants are targeting, uh, increased levels of serotonin and increased levels of norepinephrine in our bodies.
所以我们的饱腹感中心，嗯，我们的情绪提升中心，如果你愿意的话，我们大多数抗抑郁药的目标是，呃，增加我们体内血清素的水平和去甲肾上腺素的水平。
Um, and so we know that we're engaging in activating the serotonin system, which by the way is also involved in pain processing.
嗯，所以我们知道我们正在激活血清素系统，顺便说一下，它也参与疼痛处理。
Um, and then some of these alkaloids are heavily hitting the adrenergic receptors, which is our stimulant sort of activity centers, uh, our fight or flight sort of system, if you will.
嗯，然后其中一些生物碱会严重影响肾上腺素能受体，这是我们的兴奋剂活动中心，呃，我们的战斗或逃跑系统，如果你愿意的话。
Um, and.
嗯，还有。
It makes it into this very complex alphabet soup, what I like to call a complex symphony orchestra.
它使它成为这个非常复杂的字母汤，我喜欢称之为复杂的交响乐团。
That's, that's playing multiple instruments in our brain at the same time.
也就是说，我们的大脑同时演奏多种乐器。
And some people say that this is the best pain relief they've ever had.
有些人说这是他们吃过的最好的止痛药。
And I come back to it as a science and now saying, okay, we've looked at all these different mechanisms that are involved.
我回到它作为一门科学，现在说，好吧，我们已经研究了所有这些涉及的不同机制。
We've never treated pain from those three prongs at once in a single drug or in a cocktail of drugs in a human.
我们从未用单一药物或混合药物同时治疗人类的这三个方面的疼痛。
Andrew Huberman: Can you list those off?
Andrew Huberman：你能列出这些吗？
The three?
三个？
Yeah.
是的。
Chris McCurdy: So those three are opioid.
克里斯·麦柯迪：所以这三个是阿片类药物。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Which obviously we use to treat pain, serotonin.
显然我们用血清素来治疗疼痛。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Which we sometimes use now for chronic pain.
我们现在有时用它来治疗慢性疼痛。
Um, drugs like amitriptyline, which is a, a serotonin, uh, reuptake inhibitor or old school tricyclic antidepressant, used a lot for neuropathic pain before things like gabapentin, Neurontin came along, or pregabalin.
嗯，像阿米替林这样的药物，它是一种血清素，呃，再摄取抑制剂或老式三环类抗抑郁药，在加巴喷丁、Neurontin 或普瑞巴林等药物出现之前，大量用于治疗神经性疼痛。
Uh, and then the adrenergic system.
呃，然后是肾上腺素能系统。
The adrenergic system, which is actually one that we target in some of the side effects of opioid withdrawal, uh, with drugs like clonidine, which are alpha two receptor agonists that help shut down neurotransmission in our brain.
肾上腺素能系统，实际上是我们在阿片类药物戒断的一些副作用中所针对的一个系统，呃，使用可乐定等药物，这些药物是α2受体激动剂，有助于关闭我们大脑中的神经传递。
This is really fascinating because all three of these neurotransmitter systems are intimately involved in pain processing.
这真的很令人着迷，因为这三种神经递质系统都与疼痛处理密切相关。
And we've always looked at, um, and I'll, I'll say this from a medicinal chemist standpoint, medicinal chemist goal are to make the best compounds, the most selective compounds for one target.
我们一直在研究，嗯，我会，我会从药物化学家的角度说这一点，药物化学家的目标是制造最好的化合物，针对一个目标最具选择性的化合物。
So pharmacologists can figure out what that target is doing.
因此药理学家可以弄清楚该目标正在做什么。
And here's another example from nature that's saying, look, if we hit all of these targets at once, you don't have to step on the gas quite as hard on each one, and you get some kind of relief.
这是来自大自然的另一个例子，它说，看，如果我们同时达到所有这些目标，你就不必对每个目标都猛踩油门，你会得到某种缓解。
And that's why I'm saying what I hear from a lot of people is less is more.
这就是为什么我说我从很多人那里听到的“少即是多”。
So a lot of people that are reporting pain relief or mood elevation, they're not reporting psychoactivity, they're getting the benefit without this psychoactivity.
因此，许多报告疼痛缓解或情绪升高的人，他们并没有报告心理活动，他们在没有这种心理活动的情况下也得到了好处。
But if you have the goal when you take these products that you wanna get high or you should feel like you're on a drug, then that's I think where people are starting to push in saying, well, I've, I obviously can't be benefiting from this if I'm not feeling like I'm on a drug.
但如果你在服用这些产品时有一个目标，那就是你想要兴奋，或者你应该感觉自己在吸毒，那么我认为人们就会开始努力说，好吧，如果我不觉得自己在吸毒，我显然不能从中受益。
Right.
正确的。
Andrew Huberman: So I, I wanna say, first of all, thank you for that description of this tripartite, um, uh, effect of, of the creto plant and how pain relief in its ideal form.
Andrew Huberman：所以我，我想说，首先，感谢您对克里托植物的三重作用的描述，以及如何以理想的形式缓解疼痛。
Not too much sedative effect, pain gone, but still the noradrenergic effect where people aren't sedated to the point where they can't do anything is ideal.
镇静作用不是太多，疼痛消失了，但去甲肾上腺素能作用仍然是理想的，即人们没有镇静到无法做任何事情的程度。
And that what you said also really highlights and you, and you said it better than I ever could, that what we do in science and medicine, reductionist science and medicine is we're trying to isolate receptors in pathways and dose response curves.
你所说的也确实强调了你，你说得比我更好，我们在科学和医学、还原论科学和医学中所做的是，我们正在尝试分离途径和剂量反应曲线中的受体。
And we're trying to come up with essentially pills of isolated compounds.
我们正试图研制出由分离化合物组成的药丸。
Chris McCurdy: Right.
克里斯·麦柯迪：对。
Andrew Huberman: That hit one, maybe two of these different pathways.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：这击中了这些不同途径中的一个，也许是两个。
Um, in fact, it's interesting that whenever a drug, um, impacts multiple pathways, we call them off target effects.
嗯，事实上，有趣的是，每当一种药物，嗯，影响多种途径时，我们称它们为脱靶效应。
Right?
正确的？
Right.
正确的。
That just that language alone, it tells you everything you need to know, which is that you're trying to target specific receptors, but the, and pathways.
仅凭这种语言，它就告诉您需要知道的一切，即您正在尝试针对特定受体，但是，和途径。
But the way that the brain works isn't like that.
但大脑的工作方式并非如此。
Right.
正确的。
The, the.
该，该。
Earlier we were talking about breathing.
之前我们讨论过呼吸。
I mean, the, the cardio respiratory system are intimately involved and correct, and it's no surprise, therefore that you have some of the same receptors and systems involved.
我的意思是，心肺系统密切相关且正确，因此毫不奇怪，因此您有一些相同的受体和系统参与其中。
Um, but you mentioned, uh, increasing serotonin for the treatment of depression.
嗯，但是你提到，呃，增加血清素来治疗抑郁症。
SSRIs, these days, a lot of people are, are down on SSRIs because of the negative side effects, right?
如今，很多人都因为 SSRI 的副作用而对 SSRI 感到不满，对吗？
Reduced libido appetite or increased appetite.
性欲减退或食欲增加。
Um, I will say in fairness to SSRIs, uh, SSRIs have helped a great many people, especially with people with, um, true clinical OCD.
嗯，我公平地说，SSRIs 类药物已经帮助了很多人，特别是那些患有，嗯，真正的临床强迫症的人。
These are not people that are obsessive of nature.
这些人并不是痴迷于自然的人。
These are people who are really stricken by their OCD.
这些人确实被强迫症所困扰。
So there are places where SSRIs are valuable, but, um, I think the, the interesting thing to me is always that a really good scientific study isolates variables so that you can assign any observed effect to that compound at that dose or, um, that behavior, uh, at that frequency, um, in that population.
因此，SSRIs 在某些地方是有价值的，但是，嗯，我认为，对我来说有趣的事情始终是，一项真正好的科学研究隔离了变量，以便您可以将任何观察到的效果分配给该化合物在该剂量下的效果，或者，嗯，该行为，呃，在该人群中的频率。
But that's just the nature of reduction of science, right?
但这就是科学还原的本质，对吗？
Um, plants on the other hand, as you've pointed out before, um, you know, the fact that they hit multiple pathways and that when the dosages are appropriate, it seems like they can be.
嗯，另一方面，正如你之前指出的，嗯，你知道，事实上它们会通过多种途径，而且当剂量合适时，它们似乎可以做到。
Very beneficial in certain areas.
在某些领域非常有益。
Right.
正确的。
I'm not suggesting people use Kratom, but you know, um, the kratom leaf it sounds like could be very beneficial for people in certain contexts.
我并不是建议人们使用卡痛叶，但你知道，嗯，卡痛叶听起来可能对某些情况下的人非常有益。
Not just people trying to get over opioid addiction, but maybe pain relief, et cetera.
不仅仅是人们试图克服阿片类药物成瘾，还可能是缓解疼痛等等。
But you have to kinda wonder, this is kind of a, um, philosophical slash spiritual question.
但你必须有点想知道，这是一个，嗯，哲学斜线精神问题。
I mean, it's kind of amazing that these plants contain a compound or set of compounds that can activate the pathways that we're seeking them to activate in a desired way.
我的意思是，令人惊奇的是，这些植物含有一种或一组化合物，可以激活我们正在寻求它们以所需方式激活的途径。
Plants, by the way, can also kill you folks.
顺便说一句，植物也会杀死你们。
Yeah.
是的。
Or make you crazy if you take too many of them legitimately crazy.
或者，如果你让太多人合理地疯狂，就会让你发疯。
Um, or dead.
嗯，或者死了。
But you kind of have to wonder, like you can ask the why question, but you'll never get there.
但你必须想知道，就像你可以问为什么的问题，但你永远不会到达那里。
I wasn't consulted at the design phase and neither were you.
在设计阶段没有咨询过我，也没有咨询过你。
Um, but it is kind of beyond statistical probability to assume that a plant would contain the solution to pain by dosing each of the impact on these different pathways at just the right way.
嗯，但是假设植物能够通过以正确的方式调节对这些不同途径的每种影响来解决疼痛，这有点超出了统计概率。
And yet it sounds like such a plant exists.
然而听起来这样的植物确实存在。
Yeah.
是的。
And that plant is kratom.
这种植物就是卡痛叶。
Chris McCurdy: This has been the fascinating part and I, I have to just say, one of the biggest changes in my entire research program is when we moved to the University of Florida and the University of Florida is unique in that we have.
克里斯·麦柯迪：这是令人着迷的部分，我不得不说，我整个研究计划中最大的变化之一是当我们搬到佛罗里达大学时，佛罗里达大学的独特之处在于我们。
Our College of Medicine and we have all the health sciences on one campus, including veterinary medicine, which we also work with.
我们的医学院和我们在一个校区拥有所有健康科学专业，包括我们也与之合作的兽医学。
And we're doing clinical trials with krato and companion dogs, which is a whole nother discussion.
我们正在对克拉托和伴侣犬进行临床试验，这是一个完全不同的讨论。
Yeah.
是的。
Animals need pain relief too.
动物也需要缓解疼痛。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Yeah.
是的。
And we have very poor pain control in animals, particularly in dogs.
我们对动物（尤其是狗）的疼痛控制能力非常差。
Um, we can come back to that if you want.
嗯，如果你愿意，我们可以回到这个话题。
Um, but most universities in the United States state universities have either the medical college or they have the agricultural college.
嗯，但是美国州立大学大多数大学要么有医学院，要么有农学院。
University of Florida has both 800 pound gorillas, if you will, in the same system.
如果你愿意的话，佛罗里达大学在同一个系统中拥有两只 800 磅重的大猩猩。
So University of Florida is extremely well known around the state of Florida and around the country for their unit called ifis, which is the Institute for Food and Agricultural Sciences, which has a service, um, facility in every single county in the state of Florida to work with agricultural industry.
因此，佛罗里达大学在佛罗里达州和全国范围内因其名为 ifis 的单位而闻名，该单位是食品和农业科学研究所，该研究所在佛罗里达州的每个县都设有服务设施，与农业行业合作。
Um, and we've worked with plant scientists on Kratom to understand what is this plant doing and what's it, why is it producing?
嗯，我们与植物科学家合作研究卡痛叶，以了解这种植物在做什么、它是什么、为什么会产生？
What is producing, why are these chemicals there?
产生了什么，为什么会有这些化学物质？
To get to the answer to your question, we think we've figured out why the plants are producing this.
为了找到你问题的答案，我们认为我们已经弄清楚了植物产生这种物质的原因。
It's definitely not for our benefit.
这绝对不是为了我们的利益。
So plants produce chemical defense all the time, right?
所以植物一直在产生化学防御，对吧？
The alkaloids are, by the way, bitter compounds by nature.
顺便说一句，生物碱本质上是苦味化合物。
So most of the time they're antifa to make sure that the passing by, uh, deer, giraffe, whatever, is not going to eat all the leaves off of that tree.
所以大多数时候他们都是反法西斯分子，以确保路过的，呃，鹿，长颈鹿，无论什么，不会吃掉那棵树上的所有叶子。
They're gonna have a couple and realize, this is nasty.
他们会拥有一对，然后意识到，这很糟糕。
I don't wanna do this.
我不想这样做。
I'm gonna move on to the next plant.
我要前往下一个工厂。
Um, however, interestingly enough, mitro Speciosa, the creto tree, does not grow, uh, in a place where it's gonna be attacked by herbivorous animals.
嗯，然而，有趣的是，米特罗·斯皮西奥萨（mitro Speciosa），即克里托树，不会生长在，呃，会受到食草动物攻击的地方。
These grow in very swampy um, conditions, and in those swampy conditions, it's very humid.
它们生长在非常沼泽的条件下，在那些沼泽条件下，非常潮湿。
It's on the equator, it's incredibly hot, um, and what grows in hot, humid environments, fungus, these compounds that the tree is producing, which, yes, they seem to interact with our neurotransmitter systems for whatever reason.
它位于赤道上，非常热，嗯，在炎热、潮湿的环境中生长的东西，真菌，树木产生的这些化合物，是的，它们似乎出于某种原因与我们的神经递质系统相互作用。
Our highly effective antifungal agents for the plant to ensure its ability to survive and stay in that environment and thrive in that environment.
我们为植物提供高效抗真菌剂，确保其在该环境中生存、停留并茁壮成长的能力。
Andrew Huberman: Hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Is it a good antifungal potentially in humans as well?
它对人类也有潜在的良好抗真菌作用吗？
Chris McCurdy: So, that's a great question.
克里斯·麦柯迪：所以，这是一个很好的问题。
Right.
正确的。
We've, we've, we've decided, we would look at this from human pathogenic fungus of what?
我们、我们、我们已经决定，我们要从人类致病真菌的角度来看待这个什么？
Fungus disease causing fungi in humans.
引起人类真菌感染的真菌病。
So far, we haven't seen anything, but as far as agriculturally important fungus, it seems to be able to be very potent on some of these.
到目前为止，我们还没有看到任何东西，但就农业上重要的真菌而言，它似乎对其中一些真菌非常有效。
And so we're actually looking heavily into, uh, this area.
所以我们实际上正在认真研究这个领域。
So there's, there's, there's parts of the chemical structures that are conserved on all of the alkaloids that we see this tree producing.
因此，我们看到这棵树产生的所有生物碱都保留了部分化学结构。
And that chemical structure, actually, the, the way that it tipped us off was we, we equated that back to a naturally occurring antifungal that's already used in the agricultural industry.
实际上，这种化学结构向我们提示的方式是我们，我们将其等同于已经在农业中使用的天然抗真菌剂。
Um, has the exact same chemical pattern, uh, what we call moty or a function, uh, and the molecule.
嗯，具有完全相同的化学模式，呃，我们所说的分子或功能，呃，和分子。
And those are, uh, called Strobel, the molecules that are used, and they're used in USDA agricultural industry as anti natural antifungals.
这些是，呃，被称为 Strobel 的分子，它们在美国农业部农业工业中用作抗天然抗真菌剂。
So we always.
所以我们总是。
Kind of made the joke that if this gets put into the Controlled Substance Act, we'll we'll just go to the agricultural chemical pathway and see if we can develop new antifungals for the ag industry, particularly in a state like Florida that's very hot and humid, um, that could benefit from, from good antifungals.
开玩笑说，如果这被纳入《管制物质法案》，我们将进入农用化学品途径，看看我们是否可以为农业行业开发新的抗真菌剂，特别是在像佛罗里达州这样非常炎热和潮湿的州，嗯，可以从良好的抗真菌剂中受益。
So there's a reason that plants are producing the molecules they're producing.
因此，植物产生它们所产生的分子是有原因的。
Um, but through trial and error, as we've talked about before, through watching, um, and historical just trying things, uh, the f around and find out, you know, figure out there's some benefit to humans from these plants.
嗯，但是通过反复试验，正如我们之前讨论过的，通过观察，嗯，历史上的尝试，呃，周围发现，你知道，找出这些植物对人类有一些好处。
Right.
正确的。
Andrew Huberman: Plants are protecting themselves and trying to evolve.
Andrew Huberman：植物正在保护自己并试图进化。
Yeah.
是的。
Just like any other species.
就像任何其他物种一样。
Uh, years ago, uh, I had a friend who's a, uh, very serious about Chinese medicine, uh, like practitioner.
呃，几年前，呃，我有一个朋友，呃，他对中医非常认真，呃，像从业者。
Um, and I said, what, what sorts of goodies does Chinese medicine offer for somebody who's interested in, uh, you know, supplements and medicine and f formal medicine also?
嗯，我说，什么，中医为那些对补充品、药物和正规药物感兴趣的人提供了哪些好处？
Um, and they gave me, don't do this at home kids.
嗯，他们告诉我，孩子们不要在家里这样做。
They gave me a, uh, an alkaloid that's from, um, gecko skin that's been shedded and uh, it's a stimulant and um, it's very bitter.
他们给了我一种，呃，一种生物碱，它来自，嗯，壁虎脱落的皮，呃，它是一种兴奋剂，嗯，它很苦。
I know.
我知道。
'cause I opened the capsule, it tasted it before I took it, and it was a pretty, pretty decent stimulant.
因为我打开了胶囊，在服用之前就尝到了它的味道，它是一种非常非常不错的兴奋剂。
Um, I prefer caffeine, but it was a.
嗯，我更喜欢咖啡因，但它是。
You know, a nice arc stimulant and it had, it was clearly a stimulant.
你知道，这是一种很好的电弧兴奋剂，它显然是一种兴奋剂。
And you think, okay, well how did they arrive at this?
你想，好吧，他们是怎么得出这个结论的？
Well, um, somebody observed that geckos are able to survive in a area where there are a lot of birds that feed on reptiles and other small critters.
嗯，嗯，有人观察到壁虎能够在有很多以爬行动物和其他小动物为食的鸟类的地区生存。
And that's the way that the geckos have learned to, um, be less tasty.
这就是壁虎学会的方式，嗯，变得不那么美味。
Be bitter.
苦涩一点。
Chris McCurdy: Yeah.
克里斯·麦柯迪：是的。
'
'
Andrew Huberman: cause if you're sweet or you're a great protein snack, which most every moving organism is, well then, uh, you, you're better off being bitter than being sweet species
安德鲁·休伯曼：因为如果你是甜的，或者你是一种很棒的蛋白质零食，大多数移动的有机体都是这样，那么，呃，你，你最好是苦的，而不是甜的物种
Chris McCurdy: won't be around long.
克里斯·麦柯迪：不会太久。
Andrew Huberman: Exactly.
安德鲁·休伯曼：没错。
So, so, so there's a lot of this out there.
所以，所以，所以有很多这样的事情。
Um, so a couple of days ago I asked, uh, my ex audience, does anyone have any, um, questions about Kratom?
嗯，几天前我问，呃，我的前观众，有人对卡痛有任何，嗯，问题吗？
Uh, a lot of praise for you and your efforts to really be, uh, discerning and, and nuanced about the, the, the messaging around Kratom and for your work.
呃，对你的很多赞扬，以及你对卡痛叶周围的信息和你的工作的真正洞察力和细致入微的努力。
So, um, someone asked something that I have no idea what it means, but that, but this person is a researcher.
所以，嗯，有人问了一些我不知道是什么意思的问题，但是，但是这个人是一个研究员。
I know them.
我认识他们。
They're a, a well-known neuroscientist, and they asked, is there really a difference between white vein, red vein and brown vein?
他们是一位著名的神经科学家，他们问，白色静脉、红色静脉和棕色静脉之间真的有区别吗？
What are we talking about here?
我们在这里谈论什么？
Chris McCurdy: I'll answer the question very quickly.
克里斯·麦柯迪：我会很快回答这个问题。
Most of this is marketing.
其中大部分是营销。
Um, but what, what we realized, um, is that there's, on the tree itself, the trees, leaves have veins, and those veins are red.
嗯，但是，我们意识到，嗯，在树本身上，树、叶子有纹理，而且这些纹理是红色的。
In some cases, or green in other cases, or, or white, you can think about this like rainbow shard at the supermarket, right?
在某些情况下，或者在其他情况下是绿色，或者，或者白色，你可以把它想象成超市里的彩虹碎片，对吧？
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
You, you know, they've got beautiful colors or rhubarb or whatever you wanna compare to blood oranges versus Yep,
你知道，它们有美丽的颜色或大黄或任何你想与血橙和是的相比的东西，
Andrew Huberman: yep.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Sure,
当然，
Chris McCurdy: sure.
克里斯·麦柯迪：当然。
So, so what we have seen, and I, and I'm gonna caveat this answer too, because a lot of, a lot of marketing goes into this white vein, red vein, brown vein, green vein, um, yellow vein.
所以，我们所看到的，我，我也会警告这个答案，因为很多很多营销都进入了白色静脉，红色静脉，棕色静脉，绿色静脉，嗯，黄色静脉。
They're actually five colors of products that come into the United States, and it has to do with how those have been cured or dried after they've been harvested.
它们实际上是进入美国的五种颜色的产品，这与这些产品在收获后的腌制或干燥方式有关。
So, green leaves fresh, not dried, very much dried in a cool environment, indoors, they're gonna retain the greenish color, um, and they're ground and pulverize.
所以，新鲜的绿叶，不是干燥的，而是在室内凉爽的环境中干燥的，它们会保留绿色，嗯，然后被磨碎。
That powder comes in green.
这种粉末呈绿色。
Then that's it, that's your green vein.
就是这样，这就是你的绿脉。
Many in many cases, and vice versa, as you go through the colors, it, it really depends on how the color of the leaf material was.
在很多情况下，反之亦然，当你浏览颜色时，它实际上取决于叶子材料的颜色。
We grow these trees at the University of Florida and, and it's interesting because if they, they can get sunburned and they can, they're a, they're a undercover canopy crop.
我们在佛罗里达大学种植这些树，这很有趣，因为如果它们，它们会被晒伤，它们可以，它们是一种地下作物。
So the trees naturally exist sort of underneath a higher canopy of trees.
因此，这些树木自然地存在于较高的树冠之下。
So they're shade grown.
所以它们是阴凉生长的。
Okay?
好的？
If they get direct exposure into the sun, they'll actually burn and the leaves will start to turn brownish red.
如果它们直接暴露在阳光下，它们实际上会燃烧，叶子会开始变成棕红色。
Um, we've done that with specific wavelength, light studies and greenhouses and whatnot too.
嗯，我们已经通过特定波长、光研究和温室等做到了这一点。
Um, but they'll also get damaged when it gets cold and they'll get brownish color or they'll turn reddish color again.
嗯，但是当天气变冷时，它们也会受到损坏，它们会变成棕色，或者会再次变成红色。
That, so that some sort of response, chemical response.
那就是某种反应，化学反应。
But it is a chemical response.
但这是一种化学反应。
And this is where I put the caveat in because when we've isolated, when we've not isolated, but we've analyzed the different strains and colors of powders for their alkaloid content, they're all very similar.
这就是我提出警告的地方，因为当我们分离时，当我们没有分离时，但我们分析了不同菌株和颜色的粉末的生物碱含量，它们都非常相似。
So the alkaloid is, is not changing.
所以生物碱是，没有改变。
So we always said it's kind of a marketing deal.
所以我们总是说这是一种营销交易。
And it's a more of a potential placebo thing.
这更像是一种潜在的安慰剂。
Like, oh, this is more relaxing.
就像，哦，这样更放松。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
This is more pain.
这更加痛苦。
This is very
这是非常
Andrew Huberman: reminiscent of the indica sativa.
Andrew Huberman：让人想起籼稻。
Yeah.
是的。
Question that I got around cannabis, and yet when you talk to users of indica versus sativa and different strains and different amounts of terpenes and types of terpenes and cannabis, people will swear by the vastly different effects of these things.
我对大麻的疑问，然而，当你与籼稻和苜蓿以及不同品种和不同数量的萜烯以及萜烯和大麻类型的使用者交谈时，人们会发誓这些东西的效果截然不同。
But it became clear to me anyway, that some of that, not all of it, some of it is related to the fact that you have different, um, uh, you call them chains of custody as you go from the, the plant to the product.
但无论如何，我很清楚，其中一些，不是全部，其中一些与这样一个事实有关：从工厂到产品，你有不同的，嗯，呃，你称之为监管链。
Right?
正确的？
So people will associate a particular effect with a given product.
因此人们会将特定的效果与特定的产品联系起来。
That product might be labeled green vein or red vein.
该产品可能被标记为绿色静脉或红色静脉。
So the effects may indeed differ, but it's hard to trace back to the actual differences in green vein versus red vein.
因此，效果可能确实有所不同，但很难追溯到绿静脉与红静脉的实际差异。
That's what I'm gathering from
这就是我正在收集的
Chris McCurdy: this.
克里斯·麦柯迪：这个。
Right.
正确的。
In terms of their alkaloidal makeup.
就其生物碱组成而言。
So when we analyze things, and, and let me just, let me take a step back here.
因此，当我们分析事物时，让我退后一步。
So plants produce many classes of chemicals, right?
那么植物会产生多种化学物质，对吗？
Alkaloids are the ones that traditionally people think of with pharmacological activity that are interesting, that are gonna have psychoactive activity.
传统上人们认为生物碱具有有趣的药理活性，并且具有精神活性。
So most people focus on alkaloids as being the biologically relevant plant materials.
因此，大多数人将生物碱视为生物学相关的植物材料。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
You mentioned cannabis.
你提到了大麻。
Cannabis has no alkaloids, so.
大麻不含生物碱，所以。
Those are terpenes, which is another chemical class of molecules.
这些是萜烯，这是另一种化学分子。
They do not contain nitrogens.
它们不含氮。
Um, and they, we now know, interact with specific proteins in our body as well, like cannabinoid receptors.
嗯，我们现在知道，它们也与我们体内的特定蛋白质相互作用，例如大麻素受体。
So it plants are producing many classes of, of compounds.
因此，植物正在产生许多类别的化合物。
They produce steroids, what we call phyto steroids.
它们产生类固醇，我们称之为植物类固醇。
They produce tannins.
它们产生单宁。
Um, which anybody who's like me likes wine.
嗯，像我这样的人都喜欢喝酒。
Uh, you know, you talk about tannins and all the different types of tannins that can be present in wine or tea or teas.
呃，你知道，你谈论的是单宁以及葡萄酒或茶中可能存在的所有不同类型的单宁。
Yeah.
是的。
Um, and to that point, there's antioxidant type compounds in there.
嗯，就这一点而言，里面有抗氧化剂类型的化合物。
Um, you know, all kinds of classes of, of chemicals.
嗯，你知道，各种各样的化学品。
No one to my knowledge, has studied anything other than the alkaloids in the cranium plant.
据我所知，除了颅骨植物中的生物碱之外，没有人研究过任何其他东西。
Andrew Huberman: Likewise with cannabis, a lot of it hasn't been explored besides THC and CBD,
Andrew Huberman：与大麻一样，除了 THC 和 CBD 之外，还有很多大麻尚未被探索过，
Chris McCurdy: and many of it is, is because it's such in such low quantity.
克里斯·麦柯迪：其中很多是因为它的数量如此之少。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
And coming back to the point when we talk about most of those studies that have been in the literature have been done with the major alkaloid because that's the thing that people can get a hold of.
回到我们谈论文献中的大多数研究都是针对主要生物碱进行的，因为这是人们可以获得的东西。
It's easy to isolate, purify, and if it's the major alkaloid, by default, it should be causing the activity
它很容易分离、纯化，如果它是主要生物碱，默认情况下，它应该会引起活性
Andrew Huberman: it makes for good science.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：它造就了良好的科学。
Right?
正确的？
Yeah.
是的。
It's hard to risk somebody's, uh, PhD career on, on a, uh, gene or molecule that's in low abundance.
很难拿某人的，呃，博士生涯去冒险，去冒险，呃，丰度较低的基因或分子。
You, you, you want to air towards probability of success.
你，你，你想要空气走向成功的可能性。
Okay.
好的。
So there's your answer on white vein, red vein, brown vein.
所以这就是你对白色静脉、红色静脉、棕色静脉的答案。
Sounds like it's more product dependent and source dependent in terms of the, for the user, the potential user.
对于用户和潜在用户而言，听起来它更依赖于产品和来源。
And maybe you shouldn't trust the, the marketing.
也许你不应该相信营销。
Yeah, I mean, just,
是的，我的意思是，只是，
Chris McCurdy: just finalize that with the fact that we don't know if there's other changes in chemical composition outside the alkaloids, so thank you.
Chris McCurdy：最后确定的是，我们不知道生物碱之外的化学成分是否有其他变化，所以谢谢。
There could be something there.
那里可能有什么东西。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Is there a potential use for krato as an antidepressant?
Andrew Huberman：krato 作为抗抑郁药有潜在用途吗？
Chris McCurdy: I think that's probably one of the areas that needs to be investigated.
Chris McCurdy：我认为这可能是需要调查的领域之一。
Um, much more thoroughly.
嗯，更彻底。
Uh, I, we, we got, uh, a specific marching order and we were looking at many things including regulation of blood glucose, so we can talk about a lot of potential things that are going on.
呃，我，我们，我们得到了，呃，一个具体的行军命令，我们正在研究很多事情，包括血糖调节，所以我们可以谈论很多正在发生的潜在事情。
Um, but the mood elevation and, and the, um, the sort of overall wellbeing, feeling that many people report, um, it, it, it's all anecdotal, right?
嗯，但是情绪高涨，还有，嗯，整体的幸福感，感觉很多人都报告说，嗯，它，它，这都是轶事，对吧？
But at certain point, anecdotal is a signal because it tells you once enough people are saying this, it must be something.
但在某些时候，轶事是一个信号，因为它告诉你，一旦有足够多的人这么说，它一定是有意义的。
So we need to pursue that and we need to do it in, in very good controlled clinical trials with humans so that we can understand if there is true benefit.
因此，我们需要追求这一点，我们需要在非常好的人体对照临床试验中做到这一点，以便我们能够了解是否有真正的好处。
Andrew Huberman: Next question for you is, and this was a very common question, how to get off credo.
安德鲁·休伯曼：下一个问题是，这是一个非常常见的问题，如何摆脱信条。
Uh, this person says, uh, my brother was on it.
呃，这个人说，呃，我哥哥参与了。
Um, and.
嗯，还有。
Is having a dreadful time, um, with it.
度过了一段可怕的时光，嗯，和它在一起。
He takes it now just to feel normal.
他现在接受它只是为了感觉正常。
He feels like he's a slave to Radom.
他觉得自己是拉多姆的奴隶。
We don't know what product he's taking or how much, but I will tell you, even though that's just one question, this came up numerous times.
我们不知道他正在服用什么产品或服用了多少，但我会告诉你，尽管这只是一个问题，但这个问题已经出现过很多次了。
Chris McCurdy: Yeah.
克里斯·麦柯迪：是的。
And I, and, and it is a great question, unfortunately without answer right now, but I, I, I do wanna, I do wanna stress, uh, a very important piece of this research and, and what we're trying to understand.
我，而且，这是一个很好的问题，不幸的是现在还没有答案，但是我，我，我确实想，我确实想强调，呃，这项研究的一个非常重要的部分，以及我们试图理解的内容。
Um, I've talked a lot more about the, the chemical nature and the pharmacology and differences in pharmacokinetics and potential benefits with this plant, but it's clear that there's potential harm as well.
嗯，我已经详细讨论了这种植物的化学性质和药理学以及药代动力学的差异和潜在的益处，但很明显也存在潜在的危害。
Um, and we've, we've seen that in, in many, many stories.
嗯，我们已经在很多很多故事中看到了这一点。
These are examples of that.
这些都是例子。
I have, um, a pretty routine lunch with, uh, addiction physicians in Gainesville, Florida.
我，嗯，和佛罗里达州盖恩斯维尔的成瘾医生一起吃了一顿非常例行的午餐。
And, um, pre COVID, many of them said, Hey, um, this'll be interesting to you.
而且，嗯，在新冠疫情之前，他们中的许多人都说，嘿，嗯，这对你来说会很有趣。
One of our patients came in, uh, an opioid treatment and said they started using kranium and they're, they're doing much better and they're benefiting.
我们的一位患者接受了阿片类药物治疗，并表示他们开始使用 kranium，他们的情况好多了，并且受益匪浅。
And then we didn't see each other for a couple years because of COVID, and we resumed our lunches and they said, you won't believe what we're seeing now.
然后，由于新冠疫情，我们有好几年没有见面了，我们又继续吃午餐，他们说，你不会相信我们现在所看到的。
People are coming in seeking treatment to get off.
人们前来寻求治疗以便下车。
We've unpacked a lot of discussions over a lunch table in trying to figure these things out.
为了解决这些问题，我们在午餐桌上进行了很多讨论。
Most medical practitioners go to the fact that this is opioid like, and they're using Buprenorphine or Suboxone, which is our, one of our gold standard treatments, or even methadone to get individuals off of Kratom, and they say it's working.
大多数医生都承认这与阿片类药物类似，他们使用丁丙诺啡或 Suboxone（这是我们的黄金标准治疗方法之一），甚至使用美沙酮来让人们摆脱卡痛，他们说这很有效。
But my problem with that is we've, we've said already, this is not a typical opioid.
但我的问题是，我们已经说过，这不是典型的阿片类药物。
Kratom is not a typical opioid.
卡痛叶不是典型的阿片类药物。
It's atypical for sure.
这肯定是非典型的。
It's having these other pharmacologies.
它还有其他药理学作用。
And so yes, we may have success in converting people from taking Kratom by putting them on an opioid, which many of them might've been trying to get off of in the first place with this.
所以，是的，我们可能会成功地通过让人们服用阿片类药物来改变他们服用卡痛叶的习惯，而他们中的许多人可能一开始就试图摆脱这种药物。
But the pharmacology of krato is so complex and different that you're only pressing one of those levers in the system that we just talked about is at least tripartite in its activities.
但 krato 的药理学是如此复杂和不同，以至于你只需按下我们刚才谈到的系统中的杠杆之一，它的活动至少是三方的。
Right.
正确的。
So you're ignoring the serotonergic piece.
所以你忽略了血清素能部分。
You're ignoring the adrenergic piece by only giving an opioid like methadone or buprenorphine.
您只给予美沙酮或丁丙诺啡等阿片类药物，从而忽略了肾上腺素能部分。
Is that the right way?
这是正确的方法吗？
I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't know the answer to that question.
我不知道这个问题的答案。
We know that in certain cases when we've tested animals and we've pushed them into, um, toxic levels of certain alkaloids, not creto itself, but we, we know that in many cases, opioid antagonists won't reverse some of those effects
我们知道，在某些情况下，当我们测试动物时，我们将它们推入某些生物碱的毒性水平，而不是克里托本身，但我们知道，在许多情况下，阿片类拮抗剂不会逆转其中一些影响
Andrew Huberman: because of this, these, um, non-opioid pathway effects.
Andrew Huberman：正因为如此，这些，嗯，非阿片类途径的影响。
Correct.
正确的。
So it sounds like for this person's brother or sister or somebody that wants to get off Credo suppressing the same pathways that are used to get people off opioids like Buprenorphine, uh, Naloxone, et cetera, could be useful, but there could be still other, um, aspects of dependency related to Kratom that those won't resolve.
因此，对于这个人的兄弟姐妹或想要摆脱信条的人来说，抑制与丁丙诺啡、呃、纳洛酮等阿片类药物相同的途径可能会有用，但可能还有其他，嗯，与卡痛相关的依赖性方面，这些方面无法解决。
Right.
正确的。
That's what I'm hearing.
这就是我所听到的。
Chris McCurdy: That's, that is, and, and the, and the concern is by moving someone from AUM product to a pure opioid product, like are you actually potentially making things worse because it's gonna be hard for them now to get off of those products?
Chris McCurdy：那是，那是，而且，而且，令人担忧的是，通过将某人从 AUM 产品转移到纯阿片类产品，就像你实际上可能会让事情变得更糟，因为他们现在很难摆脱这些产品？
It's a circular question, right.
这是一个循环问题，对吧。
It's very difficult to answer.
很难回答。
And this is one of the things we're really trying to get to the bottom of.
这是我们真正想要弄清楚的事情之一。
What is, what is a better, what is a more appropriate treatment?
什么是、什么是更好、什么是更合适的治疗方法？
But for right now, it seems that what is working is opioid use disorder treatments.
但就目前而言，有效的似乎是阿片类药物使用障碍的治疗。
Buprenorphine.
丁丙诺啡。
Yeah.
是的。
Buprenorphine, oxone.
丁丙诺啡、过氧化氢。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I will say there were a number of people in the response, and obviously this isn't a formal study, who said best way to get off it, not to start, right.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我会说有很多人在回应，显然这不是一项正式的研究，他们说最好的方法是摆脱它，而不是开始，对吧。
Yeah, just don't touch it.
是的，只是别碰它。
There were a lot of don't touch this stuff.
有很多不要碰这个东西。
Yeah.
是的。
That's based on observation.
这是基于观察的。
It seems, you know, I'm, uh, it's conjecture here, but based on observation, um, that they know people who have had a terrible time getting off it.
看来，你知道，我，呃，这是推测，但根据观察，嗯，他们知道有些人经历了一段糟糕的经历。
Like the best way to, to, to avoid dependence is to not start.
就像避免依赖的最好方法就是不开始。
Um, there were a couple, um, questions about, uh, that specifically, um, and the effect on the serotonin system is there.
嗯，有几个，嗯，关于，呃，具体来说，嗯，以及对血清素系统的影响的问题。
Um, you know, is you could imagine if you're trying to come off Creto at because of an opioid like dependence, uh, taking, uh, buprenorphine maybe doing other things to support the serotonin system at the same time.
嗯，你知道，你可以想象，如果你因为阿片类药物依赖而试图摆脱克里托，呃，服用，呃，丁丙诺啡，也许同时会做其他事情来支持血清素系统。
Like it doesn't have to be just one treatment, but obviously this has to be overseen by somebody that can prescribe these drugs.
就像它不一定只是一种治疗方法一样，但显然这必须由可以开这些药物的人监督。
Chris McCurdy: Yeah, no, and I, and I think the key there is, is, is not ignoring and trying to do it on your own, but getting medical professional help and getting someone that can give you not only a, uh, you know, medication assistance in treatment, but giving you, um, supportive treatment.
克里斯·麦柯迪：是的，不，我认为关键不是忽视并试图自己去做，而是寻求医疗专业人士的帮助，并找到不仅可以为您提供，呃，您知道，治疗中的药物帮助，而且可以为您提供，嗯，支持性治疗的人。
In other words, counseling, um, and, and social aspects of that
换句话说，咨询，嗯，以及社会方面
Andrew Huberman: as well.
安德鲁·休伯曼：也是。
I'm gonna just tell you one comment that.
我只想告诉你一个评论。
Somebody asked, I relay to you.
有人问，我转告你。
'cause I think it's informative for everybody.
因为我认为这对每个人来说都是信息丰富的。
And then I'll, I have one more question from, um, from the online audience.
然后我还有一个问题，嗯，来自在线观众。
Um, please tell your guest, I quit prescribed topical boot trans patches for lower back pain, cold Turkey by switching to Kratom as an alternative treatment.
嗯，请告诉您的客人，我放弃了治疗腰痛、冷火鸡的局部靴子反式贴片，改用卡痛叶作为替代治疗。
They want you to know that.
他们想让你知道这一点。
So this is somebody for whom it was effective and, and apparently they wanted you in particular to know that.
所以这对某人来说是有效的，而且显然他们特别希望你知道这一点。
Chris McCurdy: Yeah.
克里斯·麦柯迪：是的。
I appreciate that comment.
我很欣赏这个评论。
And I, it is not an uncommon theme that I've heard and I've gotten emails from, from people that have had that story.
对我来说，这并不是一个不常见的主题，我听说过，也收到过来自有过这个故事的人的电子邮件。
They've, they've been able to switch cold Turkey.
他们已经、他们已经能够改变冷酷的火鸡了。
And just, just to touch on what you said earlier too, you know, we had a, um, first case report that we published in the literature was in 2008 with a human case, uh, with my longtime collaborator, ed Boyer, uh, who's a emergency department physician.
只是，也想谈谈您之前所说的，您知道，我们在文献中发表的第一份病例报告是 2008 年的人类病例，呃，与我的长期合作者埃德·博耶 (ed Boyer) 一起，呃，他是一名急诊科医生。
Um, and Ed called me and he said, you're not gonna believe what I have in the ed.
嗯，埃德打电话给我，他说，你不会相信我在埃德里写的。
He said, I've got someone.
他说，我有人了。
The ED is the emergency department, came in with a full blown seizure.
急诊室是急诊科，进来时突然癫痫发作。
And, um, but that this is all in this paper.
而且，嗯，但这就是本文的全部内容。
It's unpacked.
已经拆封了
It was, what we think happened is that he took a modafinil, which is a, um, drug for act, actually narcolepsy.
我们认为发生的事情是他服用了莫达非尼，这是一种，嗯，药物，实际上是嗜睡症药物。
He was feeling tired, his.
他感觉很累，他的。
His wife, uh, had these drugs.
他的妻子，呃，有这些药物。
And so he took this on top of his well-established use of, of Kratom.
因此，他将这一点置于他对卡痛的广泛使用之上。
And this was, a lot of
这是，很多
Andrew Huberman: people use Modafinil as a, um, stimulant.
Andrew Huberman：人们使用莫达非尼作为一种兴奋剂。
Cognitive enhancer.
认知增强剂。
Yeah.
是的。
Very, very common.
非常非常常见。
Now
现在
Chris McCurdy: you have to remember this, this took place in 2007.
Chris McCurdy：你必须记住这一点，这发生在 2007 年。
Okay?
好吧？
So the only product that was in the market at that point in time was leaf.
因此，当时市场上唯一的产品是叶子。
Andrew Huberman: So leaf crem and modafinil.
Andrew Huberman：叶霜和莫达非尼。
Chris McCurdy: Yeah.
克里斯·麦柯迪：是的。
So, um, it caused him to have a seizure, uh, in the emergency department.
所以，嗯，这导致他癫痫发作，呃，在急诊室。
They had no idea what to do.
他们不知道该怎么办。
Um, luckily Ed knew me and that we were working on this.
嗯，幸运的是埃德认识我并且我们正在研究这个。
And we were working on another thing called Sal Dior, which is a whole nother study about a hallucinogenic mint plant.
我们正在研究另一项名为 Sal Dior 的项目，这是一项关于致幻薄荷植物的另一项研究。
Um, but we started talking and when this guy came conscious and, and was fine by the way, he quit a habit of Dilaudid, which is a prescription opioid cold Turkey, switched to Kratom, no issues, Kratom leaf.
嗯，但是我们开始交谈，当这个人清醒过来并且没事的时候，他戒掉了 Dilaudid 的习惯，这是一种处方阿片类冷火鸡，改用 Kratom，没问题，Kratom 叶。
And then after he had this seizure and came to in the hospital, um, he quit cold Turkey, cre.
然后在他癫痫发作并住院后，嗯，他戒掉了冷火鸡，cre。
The only thing that he had was a runny nose, and he said he had no desire to go back and take it anymore.
他唯一的感觉就是流鼻涕，他说他不想再回去忍受了。
Now, at the moment in time that that happened, this was a n equals one case ever.
现在，在这件事发生的那一刻，这是有史以来的 n 等于 1 的情况。
Um, and my friend Ed said, this sounds like the holy grail.
嗯，我的朋友埃德说，这听起来像是圣杯。
If you can get off of it off Dilaudid, you'd never off Dilaudid off of Kratom.
如果你能从 Dilaudid 上摆脱它，你就永远不会从 Kratom 上摆脱 Dilaudid。
Yeah.
是的。
And now you don't even have a craving to go back to it right now.
现在你甚至没有渴望立即回到过去。
That's a huge caveat in this story.
这是这个故事中的一个巨大警告。
The guy had a seizure, so significant event occurred that, you know, he decided at that point in time he was never gonna touch crate again.
那家伙癫痫发作，发生了如此重大的事件，你知道，他在那一刻决定再也不会碰板条箱了。
Andrew Huberman: Speaks to the precariousness of Polypharmacology done at home.
Andrew Huberman：谈到在家进行的多药理学的不稳定。
Chris McCurdy: Yes.
克里斯·麦柯迪：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Um, and, uh, I once took Modafinil half a dose.
Andrew Huberman：嗯，呃，我曾经服用过半剂莫达非尼。
I'm very susceptible to medication and it, uh, kept me up for almost two days.
我对药物非常敏感，这让我几乎两天没睡。
Chris McCurdy: Wow.
克里斯·麦柯迪：哇。
Andrew Huberman: And I took it in the morning time.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我是在早上拍的。
Some people I know can take it just fine and, and use it as a stimulant when traveling, especially to give talks after whatnot and, uh, for narcolepsy, et cetera as well.
我认识的一些人可以很好地接受它，并且在旅行时将其用作兴奋剂，特别是在诸如此类的事情之后进行演讲，呃，对于发作性睡病等。
I'm wondering if we can have a bit more fun, um, talking about plants and some of the things that come from plants and their interesting uses.
我想知道我们是否可以有更多的乐趣，嗯，谈论植物和一些来自植物的东西及其有趣的用途。
You mentioned the cocoa plant earlier.
您之前提到过可可植物。
Sure.
当然。
Uh, I don't think anyone.
呃，我想没有人。
Except a cocaine user would say cocaine is a good thing.
但可卡因使用者会说可卡因是个好东西。
I mean, it seems to destroy a lot of lives, and I'm sure there are people who can use it at low doses or low frequency and not end up in the gutter, uh, in one way or another.
我的意思是，它似乎摧毁了很多生命，而且我确信有人可以低剂量或低频率使用它，而不会最终以某种方式陷入困境。
But it does seem to be a fairly destructive compound on the whole.
但总体而言，它似乎确实是一种相当具有破坏性的化合物。
Um, and yet, as you mentioned, the, the cocoa leaf has these interesting compounds when it's, um, used as, as a leaf product.
嗯，然而，正如你提到的，当可可叶用作叶产品时，它含有这些有趣的化合物。
There's a similarly sounding, um, uh, leaf, which is, uh, the cocoa leaf, um, uh, chocolate.
有一种听起来类似的，嗯，呃，叶子，那就是，呃，可可叶，嗯，呃，巧克力。
And then there's cacao.
然后是可可。
And I'm not trying to get down into the, um, the romper room version of, of plant medicines here, but recently I started eating, uh, roasted raw ca cow beans for their polyphenol content.
我并不是想在这里深入探讨，嗯，连衣室版本的植物药物，但最近我开始吃，呃，烤生的咖啡豆，因为它们的多酚含量。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
I actually like the bitterness.
其实我喜欢苦味。
Uh, they have a lot of fiber.
呃，它们含有大量纤维。
You have to not overconsume them, you have to make sure they're clean source so you don't consume heavy metals, et cetera.
你必须不要过度消费它们，你必须确保它们是清洁来源，这样你就不会消耗重金属等等。
Right.
正确的。
But, um, there's a lot of interesting, healthy stuff coming from plant.
但是，嗯，植物中有很多有趣、健康的东西。
So let's talk for a moment, um, if you would, about, uh, the cocoa leaf.
那么，让我们谈谈，嗯，如果你愿意的话，关于，呃，可可叶。
Chris McCurdy: Yeah.
克里斯·麦柯迪：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And cocoa and chocolate.
安德鲁·休伯曼：还有可可和巧克力。
I like 100% chocolate, 100% Venezuelan chocolate Delicious people might be, it sounds like, uh, baking chocolate, but it's, it's smooth.
我喜欢 100% 巧克力，100% 委内瑞拉巧克力，美味的人可能会，听起来像是，呃，烘焙巧克力，但它是，它很光滑。
No, I love it.
不，我喜欢它。
It's got a bitterness, but a little bit of sweetness.
虽然有一点点苦涩，但也有一点点甜味。
It tickles my brain just Right.
它让我的大脑发痒。
It's healthy.
它很健康。
It doesn't have sugar.
它没有糖。
I don't overdo it.
我并不过分。
And wow.
哇。
It's, it's a, um.
这是，这是一个，嗯。
It's a real thing.
这是真实的事情。
Chris McCurdy: Yeah.
克里斯·麦柯迪：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And I, and it's delicious and I look forward to it and I don't feel like I'm addicted to it 'cause I haven't had any for a little while and I'm fine, but I'm looking forward to it.
安德鲁·休伯曼：而我，它很美味，我很期待它，我不觉得我对它上瘾，因为我已经有一段时间没有吃过它了，我很好，但我很期待它。
Tell me about the benefits of cocoa and, and some of the alkaloids and other things that are in, in cocoa.
告诉我可可的好处以及可可中的一些生物碱和其他物质。
This is not to send people out to ingest a bunch of, uh, sugar sweetened chocolate.
这并不是要让人出去吃一堆，呃，加糖的巧克力。
We're talking about 100% cocoa or cacao beans, right?
我们谈论的是 100% 可可或可可豆，对吧？
There's there's real medicinal power in this stuff.
这东西确实有药用价值。
Chris McCurdy: Yeah.
克里斯·麦柯迪：是的。
Yeah, there absolutely is.
是的，绝对有。
And, and it's fascinating too because there's, there's a few things that are in there, and this is not something that I'm an expert on by any means, but, um, playing around in these areas, you, you start to learn and you start to take notice.
而且，这也很有趣，因为里面有一些东西，这无论如何都不是我的专家，但是，嗯，在这些领域玩耍，你，你开始学习，你开始注意到。
One of the main components in chocolate or cacao is, um, a, a compound called theobromine.
巧克力或可可的主要成分之一是一种叫做可可碱的化合物。
So theobromine is an alkaloid, it is what we specifically call xanthine alkaloid, which is identically, a cousin, almost maybe like a, a sibling of caffeine.
所以可可碱是一种生物碱，我们特意称之为黄嘌呤生物碱，它是咖啡因的表兄弟，几乎可能就像咖啡因的兄弟姐妹。
Okay.
好的。
So, uh, caffeine is a, is a molecule, again, a xanthine alkaloid, and, and.
所以，呃，咖啡因是一个分子，又是一种黄嘌呤生物碱，并且，并且。
It has three nitrogens that contain methyl groups on them.
它具有三个含有甲基的氮。
So a, a carbon with three hydrogens on them attached to the nitrogens.
所以a，碳上有三个氢，与氮相连。
And, and caffeine is a easy one to remember in this class because it is fully methylated.
而且，咖啡因是这门课中很容易记住的一种，因为它是完全甲基化的。
So I call it high test, full caffeinated, uh, substituted xanthine alkaloid.
所以我称之为高测试、全咖啡因、呃、替代黄嘌呤生物碱。
And then theobromine has no bromine on it.
可可碱上不含溴。
It has nothing to do with bromine.
与溴无关。
I have no idea where the name came from, but it's missing one of those carbons that makes it different from caffeine, but it causes stimulation.
我不知道这个名字从何而来，但它缺少一种碳，这使得它与咖啡因不同，但它会引起刺激。
It actually improves respiration, um, when it's been studied very similar to thing things like theophylline, um, that have been used long time for asthmatics before we got to the inhalers and, and things evolved, uh, in terms of our understanding of that treatment.
它实际上改善了呼吸，嗯，当它被研究得非常类似于茶碱之类的东西时，嗯，在我们使用吸入器之前，茶碱已经被长期用于治疗哮喘，并且事情发生了变化，呃，就我们对这种治疗的理解而言。
But there's also compounds within, uh, cacao that very much, um, mimic our dopaminergic type system and turn us on to feeling like, you know what?
但是，呃，可可中也有一些化合物，非常模仿我们的多巴胺能类型系统，让我们感觉像，你知道吗？
That was really good.
那真是太好了。
I want that again.
我又想要那个。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
It's not like a dopamine release that you get from a, um, a hardcore drug like cocaine or something like that.
它不像可卡因或类似药物那样释放多巴胺。
Not never done cocaine,
并非从未吸过可卡因，
Andrew Huberman: but I, but I agree.
Andrew Huberman：但是我，但是我同意。
It's, it's a subtle.
这是，这是一个微妙的。
Kind of, um, push toward, yeah, I'd like more of that, but I feel pretty good.
有点，嗯，推动，是的，我想要更多，但我感觉很好。
And, and the anticipation of it is positive and, and you certainly can work and do other things.
而且，对它的预期是积极的，而且你当然可以工作并做其他事情。
Yeah.
是的。
It's not a, certainly does not destroy,
这不是，当然不会破坏，
Chris McCurdy: yeah.
克里斯·麦柯迪：是的。
No, as far as
不，就目前而言
Andrew Huberman: I know, uh, does not destroy lives.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我知道，呃，不会毁灭生命。
Chris McCurdy: It's rewarding.
克里斯·麦柯迪：这是有益的。
Unfortunately, the industry to harvest is what destroys the lives, right?
不幸的是，以收获为目的的工业却毁掉了生命，对吗？
So there's a lot of, um, very poorly sourced and, and many of the individuals that, that work, those fields, uh, and and places are, are really abused.
因此，有很多，嗯，来源非常差，而且许多工作的个人，那些领域，呃，和地方，真的被滥用了。
And it, it's a problem in the, in the chocolate industry as a whole, there's, there's some really great companies out there that are really promoting good, sustainably sourced, ethically sourced, uh, cacao beans and, and you know, that's just, just a side note for something to look for when you're looking for a, a good solid, um, solid chocolate source.
这是整个巧克力行业的一个问题，有一些非常伟大的公司确实在推广优质的、可持续来源的、道德来源的可可豆，而且你知道，这只是当你寻找一种好的固体巧克力来源时要寻找的东西的一个旁注。
So, ethically
所以，从道德上来说
Andrew Huberman: sourced and, and you mentioned cacao beans.
Andrew Huberman：来源，你提到了可可豆。
So the, the, the raw cacao beans that I'm now eating every morning, um, usually.
所以，我现在每天早上通常都会吃生可可豆。
Not immediately in the morning.
不是早上立即。
Usually a like half hour before my first meal of the day, which for me falls a little bit late morning or closer to lunch, but I'll have five or 10 of those things.
通常是在我一天的第一顿饭前半小时，对我来说，这个时间有点晚了，或者接近午餐，但我会吃五到十个这样的东西。
Boy do I look forward to it, as I mentioned.
正如我提到的，我很期待它。
Yeah.
是的。
And those rock ca cow beans are essentially the same as the a hundred percent chocolate in terms of polyphenol content?
而那些岩牛豆在多酚含量方面与百分百巧克力本质上是一样的？
Pretty much.
差不多了。
I think
我认为
Chris McCurdy: I, I mean, again, I'm not an expert and I haven't done analysis of those, but I'm, I'm pretty sure that most of those would be retained, uh, in the processing, um, into, into chocolate as a food.
克里斯·麦柯迪：我，我的意思是，我不是专家，我没有对这些进行分析，但我，我很确定其中大部分会被保留，呃，在加工过程中，嗯，进入巧克力作为食品。
Um, you know, one thing that strikes me is probably one of the first things I ever learned of a natural product was the shells for the beans.
嗯，你知道，让我印象深刻的一件事可能是我学到的关于天然产品的第一件事之一就是豆壳。
So, uh, growing up as a kid in Pittsburgh, um, there was a lot of rose bushes around and people would use, um, cacao shells as a fertilizer for the rose bushes.
所以，呃，小时候在匹兹堡长大，嗯，周围有很多玫瑰丛，人们会使用，嗯，可可壳作为玫瑰丛的肥料。
And so you would walk by and as a kid I would get this waft of chocolatey smell, um, along with that smell of the roses, you know?
当你走过时，小时候我会闻到一股巧克力味，嗯，还有玫瑰味，你知道吗？
And it's like, it's beautiful.
就像，它很美丽。
What a, it's, it's like Valentine's Day.
哎呀，这就像情人节一样。
It's like these things were meant to be together.
就好像这些东西注定要在一起一样。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
So it's just a weird side note, just a memory that you brought back, but.
所以这只是一个奇怪的旁注，只是你带回来的一段记忆，但是。
Andrew Huberman: I love that.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我喜欢这个。
And I really think there's something, uh, pseudo spiritual or spiritual about these combinations of molecules that exist in plants.
我真的认为植物中存在的这些分子组合存在某种，呃，伪精神或精神。
And sure, the plants are fending for themselves and the fungi are fending for themselves and the birds and the geckos and the humans.
当然，植物在自卫，真菌也在自卫，还有鸟类、壁虎和人类。
But the same biological, um, motifs are used over and over again throughout nature.
但相同的生物，嗯，图案在整个自然界中一遍又一遍地使用。
Um, and of course, some species, like insect species, rely more on one neuromodulator.
嗯，当然，有些物种，比如昆虫物种，更多地依赖于一种神经调节剂。
We're more a cocktail of serotonin, dopamine, epinephrine, and mm-hmm.
我们更像是血清素、多巴胺、肾上腺素和嗯嗯的鸡尾酒。
And acetylcholine.
还有乙酰胆碱。
And, uh, but there, there does seem to be, um, something to it.
而且，呃，但是，似乎确实有，嗯，有什么东西。
Maybe AI will pull out some of the, um, some of the, uh, thematics of that.
也许人工智能会提取出一些，嗯，一些，呃，主题。
Yeah.
是的。
Um, going forward.
嗯，继续前进。
So cacao great.
可可很棒。
So I'm not alone in my, um, love of raw cacao beans.
所以我并不是唯一一个热爱生可可豆的人。
Yeah.
是的。
And a hundred percent chocolate, but look for sustainably sourced, um,
还有百分百巧克力，但要寻找可持续来源的，嗯，
Chris McCurdy: ethically
克里斯·麦柯迪：道德上
Andrew Huberman: sourced ethically, excuse me.
Andrew Huberman：请原谅，来源符合道德规范。
That's okay.
没关系。
Ethically sourced.
源于道德。
No, that's an important distinction.
不，这是一个重要的区别。
So there's a myth that Coca-Cola at one point had cocaine in it, not just the coca leaf, but actual cocaine.
因此有一个神话，认为可口可乐中曾经含有可卡因，不仅仅是古柯叶，而是真正的可卡因。
But then you hear various versions of this myth slash legend.
但随后你就会听到这个神话斜线传奇的各种版本。
Uh, what's the deal with Coca-Cola?
呃，可口可乐有什么关系？
The coca leaf and cocaine?
古柯叶和可卡因？
Chris McCurdy: Yeah.
克里斯·麦柯迪：是的。
So it's a, it is a great old story.
所以这是一个伟大的古老故事。
Uh, John Pemberton was a pharmacist in Atlanta, um, home of Coca-Cola these days, uh, and developed a formula, uh, that, that contained the Coca leaf.
呃，约翰·彭伯顿是亚特兰大的一名药剂师，嗯，现在是可口可乐的故乡，呃，他开发了一种配方，呃，其中含有古柯叶。
Extract from the coca leaf and extract from the cola nut.
从古柯叶中提取，从可乐果中提取。
So Coca-Cola, uh, and put this together, sold it as a tonic.
所以可口可乐，呃，把它放在一起，作为补品出售。
It's an interesting, just a quick segue on soft drinks in general.
这很有趣，只是对一般软饮料的快速介绍。
So soft drinks came about because they weren't hard drinks, so it was an alternative to liquor.
所以软饮料的出现是因为它们不是硬饮料，所以它是酒的替代品。
So they weren't hard alcohol, they were soft drinks or soft beverages.
所以它们不是烈酒，而是软饮料或软饮料。
They also generally had effervescence to them or carbonation.
它们通常还具有泡腾或碳酸化作用。
Uh, and most of those were available at a pharmacist soda fountain.
呃，其中大部分都可以在药剂师冷饮店买到。
So seven up had lithium in it in the past, and it was, um, uh, you know, for mind wellness.
所以七上在过去含有锂，它是，嗯，呃，你知道，用于精神健康。
Um, Pepsi had pepino in, which is a digestive peptide in it.
嗯，百事可乐含有pepino，这是一种消化肽。
Um, most of the soft drinks, Dr. Pepper was developed by Dr. Pepper in Waco, Texas and was a special formula that he had come up with for wellbeing as well.
嗯，大多数软饮料，胡椒博士是由德克萨斯州韦科的胡椒博士开发的，也是他为了健康而想出的特殊配方。
So all these soft drinks have a really cool history.
所以所有这些软饮料都有一段很酷的历史。
But John Pemberton's story of Coca-Cola, was it.
但约翰·彭伯顿的可口可乐故事就是这样。
Actually, it goes way back farther than Coca-Cola in terms of putting, uh, coca leaf into beverages.
事实上，在将古柯叶放入饮料方面，它的历史比可口可乐还要早。
Um, but we'll, we'll just stick with Coca-Cola.
嗯，但我们会，我们会坚持使用可口可乐。
So Coca-Cola, um, definitely had cocaine in it, in, in its original setting.
所以可口可乐，嗯，在它原来的环境中肯定含有可卡因。
Um, and then as time went on and we realized that cocaine was problematic and addictive, um, there was pressure for him to take that out of, of the process.
嗯，然后随着时间的推移，我们意识到可卡因是有问题的并且会让人上瘾，嗯，他有压力将其从这个过程中剔除。
And so, and what they realized was the COA leaf and, and many people that chew COA leaf talk about the different varieties that are available within south uh America and different flavor profiles that are there while the, the specific, um, one that they use for Coca-Cola has a, a, a, a definitive flavor profile to it.
因此，他们意识到的是 COA 叶，许多咀嚼 COA 叶的人谈论南美洲有不同的品种和不同的风味特征，而他们用于可口可乐的特定的，嗯，有一个，一个，一个，一个明确的风味特征。
And when they took that out, it lost the flavor that people were used to.
当他们把它拿出来时，它就失去了人们习惯的味道。
Um, and so they, they decided to.
嗯，所以他们决定这么做。
Keep this in there.
把这个放在那里。
And Coca-Cola is still the major importer of Coca leaves into the United States to this day.
时至今日，可口可乐仍然是美国古柯叶的主要进口商。
They do it through a company called the Deon Company in New Jersey.
他们通过新泽西州一家名为 Deon Company 的公司来做到这一点。
The leaf comes from, uh, Peru, uh, comes from a state run company in Peru that oversees the production of the Coca Leaf.
这片叶子来自，呃，秘鲁，呃，来自秘鲁一家负责古柯叶生产的国营公司。
Comes into, uh, this company in New Jersey.
进入，呃，新泽西州的这家公司。
They then process the leaf into, um, two parts.
然后他们将叶子加工成，嗯，两部分。
So they take all of the cocaine and all of the cocaine metabolites, essentially the alkaloids, right?
所以他们服用了所有可卡因和所有可卡因代谢物，主要是生物碱，对吧？
We talked about these alkaloids.
我们讨论了这些生物碱。
They take the alkaloids out and that gets sent to a pharmaceutical company, and those are processed into cocaine, which is used as a pharmaceutical still to this day.
他们取出生物碱，然后将其送往制药公司，然后将其加工成可卡因，至今仍被用作药物。
Um, a lot of people probably don't know this, but cocaine is the best local anesthetic that's ever been discovered.
嗯，很多人可能不知道这一点，但可卡因是迄今为止发现的最好的局部麻醉剂。
Uh, it was the template for all the local anesthetics that we use now, like lidocaine or bupivocaine.
呃，它是我们现在使用的所有局部麻醉剂的模板，例如利多卡因或布比卡因。
Um, it was the template and it is still the best one that we have, and it's used almost exclusively for nasal and eye surgeries now, where you have to stay awake and you have to be functioning and we can't intubate you and we can't do these things.
嗯，它是模板，它仍然是我们拥有的最好的模板，它现在几乎专门用于鼻腔和眼科手术，你必须保持清醒，你必须发挥作用，我们不能给你插管，我们不能做这些事情。
So this is the ideal, uh, drug.
所以这是理想的药物。
Um, it's also obviously put into lots of drug testing kits and supplies and whatnot for, for the forensics industries.
嗯，它显然也被投入到许多药物测试套件和用品以及诸如法医行业之类的用途中。
But what's the fate of what's left?
但剩下的命运又如何呢？
Right?
正确的？
Well, that coca leaf extract, the delineated extract, decolonized extract, if you will, um, is the secret sauce, if you will, for Coca-Cola still.
好吧，古柯叶提取物，描绘的提取物，去殖民化的提取物，如果你愿意的话，嗯，如果你愿意的话，它仍然是可口可乐的秘密酱汁。
So that is a grass substance.
所以那是一种草物质。
A-G-R-A-S generally recognized as safe food substance, and that is the flavoring agent that gives Coca-Cola its unique flavor.
A-G-R-A-S被普遍认为是安全食品物质，它是赋予可口可乐独特风味的调味剂。
And there was a period of time, I believe it was in the eighties, where Coca-Cola, um, really wanted to distance itself from the cocaine industry.
有一段时间，我相信是在八十年代，可口可乐，嗯，真的想与可卡因行业保持距离。
Cocaine became hugely, um, the drug of, of choice, sort of drug of abuse, uh, Len bias.
可卡因变成了一种巨大的、嗯、首选的药物、一种滥用药物、呃、莱恩偏见。
When NBA basketball player died from overdose, it just became a very nationally, uh, aware drug of abuse and there was a problem associated with cocaine.
当 NBA 篮球运动员因吸毒过量死亡时，它就成为一种全国性的、呃、众所周知的滥用药物，并且出现了与可卡因相关的问题。
And so Coca-Cola said, we're gonna cut our ties with the Coca plant completely.
因此可口可乐公司表示，我们将彻底切断与可口可乐工厂的联系。
They came out with this product called New Coke, and it didn't last long because the flavor profile couldn't be replicated to the old Coke.
他们推出了这种名为“新可乐”的产品，但它并没有持续多久，因为其风味特征无法复制到旧可乐中。
And, uh, so indeed they re, uh, re-up their, their sort of contract, uh, and have been bringing it in ever since.
而且，呃，所以他们确实，呃，重新签订了他们的合同，呃，从那时起就一直在引入它。
And to this day, uh, Coca-Cola Classic.
直到今天，呃，可口可乐经典。
And Coke Zero are the two products, interestingly enough.
有趣的是，零可乐是这两种产品。
Um, you know, diet Coke does not taste very much like Coca-Cola original, and a lot of people complain about that for a long time.
嗯，你知道，健怡可乐的味道不太像原版可口可乐，很多人抱怨了很长时间。
Um, they got smart and made this product called Coke Zero that has the flavoring agent from the Coca plant in it.
嗯，他们很聪明，制造了这种名为“零可乐”的产品，其中含有来自古柯植物的调味剂。
And lo and behold, everyone started saying, gosh, this tastes a lot more like Coca-Cola does.
你瞧，每个人都开始说，天哪，这味道更像可口可乐。
Well, yeah, it's got the flavoring ingredient in it.
嗯，是的，里面有调味成分。
And so everybody in the United States almost has had a Coke at one point in a time.
因此，美国人几乎每个人都曾在某一时刻喝过可乐。
So you've all had Coca Leaf already in your dietary chain, and I think it'll be interesting to see where things develop as we start to do more research as the World Health Organization Reconsiders, um, removing, uh, Coca Leaf from an international ban and, and looking at it as a potential product to work into food products and develop, um, further.
所以你们所有人的饮食链中都已经有了古柯叶，我认为随着世界卫生组织重新考虑，嗯，将古柯叶从国际禁令中删除，并将其视为一种潜在产品，用于食品和进一步开发，我们开始做更多的研究，看看事情的发展将会很有趣。
And so, you know, it, it supposedly has no abuse potential as the Leaf.
所以，你知道，它应该没有像 Leaf 那样的滥用潜力。
Um, but again, it's that story of isolating that one alkaloid out and sort of destroying the rest of it forever.
嗯，但是，这又是一个分离出一种生物碱并永远破坏其其余部分的故事。
However, Coca-Cola was smart enough to keep sort of a monopoly, if you will, on on keeping that plant alive, uh, in their product.
然而，可口可乐足够聪明，可以在他们的产品中保持某种垄断，以保持该工厂的活力。
And so it's, it's there.
就这样，它就在那里。
And um, the next time you have a.
嗯，下次你有一个。
Coca-Cola or Coke Zero.
可口可乐或零可乐。
Uh, just realized that it's got natural product in it.
呃，刚刚意识到它含有天然产品。
Andrew Huberman: That's incredible and I'll keep that in mind the next time I have a Coke Zero.
Andrew Huberman：这太不可思议了，下次我喝零可乐时我会记住这一点。
Is there any evidence that what's still retained from the Coca Plant in Coca-Cola is psychoactive and not just there for flavor?
是否有任何证据表明可口可乐中保留的古柯植物中的物质具有精神活性，而不仅仅是为了风味？
Chris McCurdy: That's a great question, and that's been debated quite a bit.
克里斯·麦柯迪：这是一个很好的问题，并且已经引起了很多争论。
So the one thing that we know, um, is that probably it is not having any psychoactivity.
所以我们知道的一件事是，它可能没有任何心理活动。
Um, and the, the other thing that we know, um, back to my pharmacy days, we used to sell Coke syrup.
嗯，我们知道的另一件事，嗯，回到我的药房时代，我们曾经销售可口可乐糖浆。
So when Coke is sold, uh, for fountain beverages, um, it's, it's the syrup, uh, that's then blended with the carbonated water, uh, to make Coca-Cola.
所以当可乐出售时，呃，用于喷泉饮料，嗯，它是糖浆，呃，然后与碳酸水混合，呃，制成可口可乐。
And that's why a lot of people say Co Coca-Cola out of a fountain is so much better than out of a can or a bottle because it is, it is a sort of formulated on the spot product, if you will.
这就是为什么很多人说喷泉里的可口可乐比罐头或瓶子里的可口可乐好得多，因为它是一种现场配制的产品，如果你愿意的话。
On tap.
点击即可。
Yeah, on tap.
是的，随时可用。
And, um, Coke syrup we used to sell out of the pharmacy for, uh, nausea and vomiting, particularly in pregnant women, is one of the safest things you could use.
而且，嗯，我们过去在药房出售的可乐糖浆，用于治疗恶心和呕吐，尤其是孕妇，是您可以使用的最安全的东西之一。
And it really calms and settles the GI tract.
它确实可以平静和安定胃肠道。
And this is interesting because one of the big, um.
这很有趣，因为其中一个大的，嗯。
Benefits that people report drinking coca tea is that it soothes their GI tract and it calms their GI tract and it helps, um, them be able to be alert.
人们报告说喝古柯茶的好处是它可以舒缓胃肠道，并且可以帮助他们保持警觉。
Of course, the coca tea's got all the alkaloids in it, but that same GI tract benefit is still still there, and that's probably what's still remaining within that extract that's now devoid of, of the alkaloids.
当然，古柯茶中含有所有生物碱，但同样的胃肠道益处仍然存在，这可能是现在不含生物碱的提取物中仍然残留的东西。
Andrew Huberman: And you are not paid for by Coca-Cola?
安德鲁·休伯曼：可口可乐不付钱给你？
Chris McCurdy: No. In fact, we went to Coca-Cola to see if we could work, um, with them on developing, uh, some type of medications or, or something from the Coca Leaf.
克里斯·麦柯迪：不。事实上，我们去了可口可乐公司，看看是否可以与他们合作，开发某种药物，或者从古柯叶中提取的东西。
And, uh, I have a former, um, colleague that is in their natural products division at Coca-Cola and they said they won't even let us touch the, the coca extract.
而且，呃，我有一位前同事，在可口可乐的天然产品部门工作，他们说他们甚至不让我们接触古柯提取物。
Andrew Huberman: And they've also got all that cocaine that they've pulled out of the COA leaf in this plant in New Jersey.
Andrew Huberman：他们还从新泽西州这家工厂的 COA 叶子中提取了所有可卡因。
I can only imagine what the security is on this place.
我只能想象这个地方的安全状况如何。
Chris McCurdy: I don't, I don't know.
克里斯·麦柯迪：我不知道，我不知道。
But if you, you know, you can, you can fact check me on Wikipedia or, or, which is not a great place to fact check, but, uh, you got my agreement there.
但如果你，你知道，你可以，你可以在维基百科上对我进行事实核查，或者，或者，这不是一个进行事实核查的好地方，但是，呃，你在那里得到了我的同意。
But the, but this just, the pond company is listed there in New Jersey and their connection to Coca-Cola and this whole, this whole story is actually out there in front of everybody to see.
但是，但是，这家池塘公司在新泽西州上市，他们与可口可乐的联系，整个故事实际上就摆在大家面前。
Um, it just takes knowing where to look and find it.
嗯，只需要知道在哪里寻找并找到它。
Andrew Huberman: Love it.
安德鲁·休伯曼：喜欢。
Last question about soda.
最后一个关于苏打水的问题。
Is there still lithium in seven up?
七上还有锂吗？
No,
不，
Chris McCurdy: lithium is gone from seven up, but that was the whole idea, right up mood, lift your mood up.
Chris McCurdy：锂从七点开始就消失了，但这就是整个想法，振奋情绪，振奋你的情绪。
And lithium, and we know lithium carbonate is still used to this day as a treatment for, uh, psychosis.
还有锂，我们知道碳酸锂至今仍被用来治疗，呃，精神病。
So
所以
Andrew Huberman: I'm curious a bit about you, you know, like, uh, I know a few chemists.
Andrew Huberman：我对你有点好奇，你知道，呃，我认识一些化学家。
Um, there are a couple good jokes about chemists, um, but it's clear that you love chemistry and you love the chemistry of plants.
嗯，有几个关于化学家的好笑话，嗯，但很明显你喜欢化学，也喜欢植物的化学。
And you're also interested in public health and you're interested in, I'm gathering, I'm not a psychologist, but kind of this, the, the psychology behind all of this mm-hmm.
你也对公共卫生感兴趣，你感兴趣的是，我想，我不是心理学家，但所有这些背后的心理学……嗯。
As well.
也是如此。
Um, when you were a kid, were you always, were you playing with a chemistry set?
嗯，当你还是个孩子的时候，你总是玩化学装置吗？
Chris McCurdy: Yeah.
克里斯·麦柯迪：是的。
You would think, right?
你会想，对吧？
No, I, interestingly enough, my, my father was a pharmacist and I, I just never really, um, I never really paid attention, but I was always under to, uh, and so I saw what he did and I, you know, I'd see him behind the counter at a store somewhere, um, and just never really thought much about it.
不，我，有趣的是，我的，我的父亲是一名药剂师，我，我只是从来没有真正地，嗯，我从来没有真正关注过，但我总是在，呃，所以我看到了他所做的事情，我，你知道，我会在某个商店的柜台后面看到他，嗯，只是从来没有真正考虑过它。
But I knew that he knew a lot about medicines and he knew a lot about.
但我知道他对药物很了解，而且了解很多。
Um, healthcare and, and, and what he was doing was really trying to benefit people and help people.
嗯，医疗保健，以及，他所做的事情确实是在努力造福人们并帮助人们。
Um, and I, I always thought that'd be noble.
嗯，我，我一直认为那是高尚的。
And my mother, uh, interestingly, she was a stay at home mom raised us kids, um, but was very much into education and was a teacher prior to myself being born.
我的母亲，呃，有趣的是，她是一个全职妈妈，抚养我们的孩子，嗯，但她非常热衷于教育，并且在我出生之前是一名老师。
I'm the oldest.
我是最年长的。
I have a sister, um, younger sister Lisa, who's, uh, a nurse by the way, nurse practitioner.
我有一个妹妹，嗯，妹妹丽莎，顺便说一下，她是一名护士，执业护士。
Um, so medicine has stayed within the family and science has stayed within the family.
嗯，所以医学留在了家庭内部，科学也留在了家庭内部。
But my mother, once we were old enough, uh, to be on our own, if you will, she went back and became a comprehensive science teacher at the high school level.
但是我的母亲，一旦我们长大了，呃，可以独立生活了，如果你愿意的话，她就回去了，成为了一名高中综合科学老师。
And so I just watching her work through getting her recertification education process and how passionate she was about, um, educating others, uh, obviously stuck with me as well.
所以我只是通过重新认证教育过程来观察她的工作，以及她对教育他人的热情，嗯，显然也让我着迷。
And so those, those are the things that drove me.
所以那些，那些是驱动我的事情。
I have no idea where the, the sort of, I really think innate.
我不知道在哪里，我真的认为这是天生的。
Passion came for, for the chemistry side of things.
对事物的化学方面产生了热情。
But when I was in high school, I did an independent, uh, chemistry project to coming back to caffeine.
但当我在高中时，我做了一个独立的化学项目，以回到咖啡因。
Uh, I was just curious like, what, what's the best caffeinated beverage for me to be drinking so I can stay up as late as I can and have fun?
呃，我只是很好奇，什么，什么是最适合我喝的含咖啡因饮料，这样我就可以尽可能熬夜并享受乐趣？
Well, at the time it was Jolt Cola, which doesn't exist anymore.
嗯，当时是 Jolt Cola，现在已经不存在了。
Right.
正确的。
But Jolt Cola, uh, mountain Dew was second.
但摇动可乐，呃，激浪排在第二位。
Um, yeah, drank a lot of Diamond Mountain
嗯，是的，喝了很多钻石山
Andrew Huberman: Dew in graduate school.
安德鲁·休伯曼：露在研究生院。
I can't say I recommend it, but No,
我不能说我推荐它，但不，
Chris McCurdy: I mean, that was our, IIII was a band geek in high school.
Chris McCurdy：我的意思是，那是我们的，IIII 是高中时的乐队极客。
And, um, what instrument?
还有，嗯，什么乐器？
I played trumpet and I played piano and, uh, a bunch of buddies.
我吹小号，弹钢琴，还有一群朋友。
And I would get together on Friday nights and we would drink a case of Mountain Dew.
我会在周五晚上聚在一起，喝一箱激浪。
You know, it was like everyone else is out drinking beer.
你知道，就像其他人都出去喝啤酒一样。
We were doing musical things and, and drinking Mountain Dew.
我们一边做音乐，一边喝激浪。
So it was kind of crazy.
所以这有点疯狂。
But, um, I just wanted to know what was there, right.
但是，嗯，我只是想知道那里有什么，对吧。
And I wanted to see, and I, I got vibrant tablets and I extracted the caffeine outta the vibrant tablets to quantify how much caffeine was in those.
我想看看，我，我得到了充满活力的药片，我从充满活力的药片中提取了咖啡因，以量化其中的咖啡因含量。
And, um, still, I didn't really think anything of it.
而且，嗯，我仍然没有想到任何事情。
Uh, I, I decided, uh, very late in my high school career that I needed to do something with my life.
呃，我，我决定，呃，在我高中生涯的最后阶段，我需要为我的生活做点什么。
I was bored in high school.
我高中的时候很无聊。
I did not do well.
我做得不好。
I was not a great student.
我不是一个优秀的学生。
I, I think if I was lucky, I graduated with a 3.0 from high school.
我，我想如果我幸运的话，我高中毕业的时候成绩是3.0。
Um, and my father said, you, you need to decide on something.
嗯，我父亲说，你，你需要做出一些决定。
And, and so we, I said, well, pharmacy looks like it's been pretty good to you and our family.
所以我们，我说，好吧，药房看起来对你和我们的家人都很好。
We've had a good, a good life.
我们过着很好很好的生活。
I went to pharmacy school and in pharmacy school, um, taking biochemistry and my first medicinal chemistry course I got taught by a brand new assistant professor, someone very relatable, uh, you know, close in age.
我去了药学院，在药学院，嗯，选修了生物化学，我的第一门药物化学课程是由一位全新的助理教授教的，他是一个非常有亲和力的人，呃，你知道，年龄相近。
Um, just thought the world of this guy.
嗯，只是想到这个人的世界。
And he said, Hey, I'm looking for anybody who's interested in working in a lab to, to come work in the lab.
他说，嘿，我正在寻找任何有兴趣在实验室工作的人来实验室工作。
And I was like, well, chemistry, he's cool.
我当时想，好吧，化学反应，他很酷。
I'd like to get known.
我想认识一下。
So I went to the lab, started working in the lab, um, and he told me, he said, you know, you, you have some gift here or some talent and you, you should really explore it.
所以我去了实验室，开始在实验室工作，嗯，他告诉我，他说，你知道，你在这里有一些天赋或天赋，你应该真正探索它。
I'm like, ah, I'm gonna be a pharmacist.
我想，啊，我要成为一名药剂师。
What are you talking about?
你在说什么？
Said, no, I'm gonna set you up with my PhD advisor, which happened to be the guy who tasted the stuff I talked about earlier, um, down at the University of Georgia for the summer.
我说，不，我要为你介绍我的博士生导师，他恰好是那个夏天在佐治亚大学尝过我之前谈到的东西的人。
And so I went down and did a summer intensive research program, um, in medicinal chemistry at the College of Pharmacy at the University of Georgia.
所以我去佐治亚大学药学院做了一个夏季强化研究项目，嗯，研究药物化学。
And, um.
而且，嗯。
Left there, went back to Ohio Northern University where I did my pharmacy degree, finished out all my clinical rotations.
离开那里，回到俄亥俄北方大学，在那里我获得了药学学位，完成了所有的临床轮转。
I was getting ready to graduate and take my boards and become a pharmacist.
我正准备毕业并接受我的董事会并成为一名药剂师。
And the phone rang.
电话响了。
This was back before cell phones.
这是在手机出现之前的情况。
Uh, so I'm dating cell obviously, but phone rang at home and I happened to be home because I was doing a, a local rotation near home so I could save money.
呃，所以我显然是在用手机约会，但是家里的电话响了，我碰巧在家，因为我正在家附近进行本地轮换，这样我可以省钱。
Um, and it was the department chair of medicinal chemistry from the University of Georgia and says, we don't have your application for graduate school.
嗯，是佐治亚大学药物化学系主任说，我们没有你的研究生院申请。
What's going on?
这是怎么回事？
And I said, I'm not going to graduate school.
我说，我不打算读研究生。
I'm about to finish pharmacy school.
我即将完成药学院学业。
And 15 minutes later, he was a great salesman.
15分钟后，他就成了一位出色的推销员。
He had me going to graduate school.
他让我去读研究生。
And so, um, that really changed the course of my life.
所以，嗯，这确实改变了我的人生轨迹。
And, and I ended up going to Georgia, um, sitting for my pharmacy boards in Georgia, becoming a licensed pharmacist in Georgia.
而且，我最终去了佐治亚州，嗯，在佐治亚州担任我的药房委员会成员，成为佐治亚州的一名执业药剂师。
Practiced pharmacy while I was in graduate school, which today is almost a no-no. Um, but I worked five days a week in the lab and every Saturday and Sunday in the pharmacy, um, which.
我在读研究生时曾从事药剂学工作，但这在今天几乎是禁忌。嗯，但是我每周在实验室工作五天，每周六和周日在药房工作，嗯，哪个。
Made me the party guy because I was making money and all the other grad students were making their stipend that fairly livable.
让我成为派对达人，因为我正在赚钱，而所有其他研究生的津贴都相当宜居。
We all know what graduate school stipends were like, um, very low.
我们都知道研究生院的津贴是怎样的，嗯，非常低。
But we, you know, I would be the ones that treated us every so often to nice dinners and things like that since I had a little extra, uh, to share with my friends.
但我们，你知道，我会经常请我们享用美味的晚餐和类似的东西，因为我有一点额外的，呃，与我的朋友们分享。
But, you know, got, got done, um, with a PhD and, uh, was working as a pharmacist during that time.
但是，你知道，获得了博士学位，并且，呃，在那段时间担任药剂师。
And I realized that I had a passion for education and, and I had a passion for the chemistry and the pharmacology and talking to, to customers or patients.
我意识到我对教育充满热情，对化学和药理学以及与客户或患者交谈充满热情。
Um, when they would come in, I worked in a grocery store, uh, pharmacy, and they would come in and I would tell them, oh, you're on this new drug that's brand new to the market.
嗯，当他们进来时，我在一家杂货店工作，呃，药房，他们进来时我会告诉他们，哦，你正在服用这种市场上全新的新药。
It interacts with this protein and it does this and it does all these great things and you're so lucky to be trying this.
它与这种蛋白质相互作用，它会做到这一点，它会做所有这些伟大的事情，你很幸运能够尝试这个。
Um, and I, I'll be anxious to hear if it, you know, how it works for you.
嗯，我，我很想知道它是否对你有用。
And, and they would just look at me and say, do I take you with food or not?
而且，他们只是看着我说，我带你吃饭还是不带你去？
Right.
正确的。
And that was the, it was like I realized I was standing in the wrong place to impact the public.
就是这样，就像我意识到我站在错误的地方来影响公众一样。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Right.
正确的。
And I, and it came to me that if I'm gonna do something with my PhD, uh, of course I fell in love with the research along the way, but I, I realized that impacting pharmacists to then impact.
我，我突然想到，如果我要用我的博士学位做点什么，呃，当然我一路上爱上了这项研究，但我，我意识到影响药剂师会产生影响。
Their patience was gonna be a much more effective way for me to use my talents and skills in the classroom and education wise, and then obviously doing the research and the following, that passion, um, I, I was lucky.
他们的耐心对我来说是一种更有效的方式，可以在课堂和教育方面运用我的才能和技能，然后显然可以进行研究和接下来的工作，那种热情，嗯，我，我很幸运。
I mean, my, my PhD was around synthesis of, of analogs of a natural product called lo belene, which came from Indian tobacco, native American Indian tobacco, not cigarette tobacco.
我的意思是，我的博士学位是关于一种名为 lo belene 的天然产品的类似物的合成，这种产品来自印度烟草，美洲原住民印第安烟草，而不是卷烟烟草。
Um, that was used actually as a respiratory stimulant.
嗯，那实际上是用作呼吸兴奋剂。
Andrew Huberman: So this hoppe,
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以这个霍普，
Chris McCurdy: no, this was, uh, lobel in Flaa was the plant.
克里斯·麦柯迪：不，这是，呃，弗拉的洛贝尔植物。
Okay.
好的。
And so lo loin was the compound that we worked on and, and made analogs of.
因此，腰肉是我们研究和制作类似物的化合物。
Um, we were looking at it, interestingly enough, coming back to the cholinergic nervous system.
嗯，有趣的是，我们正在研究它，回到胆碱能神经系统。
We were looking at it as a potential treatment for Alzheimer's disease, because at that time, um, a paper came out in science noting that smokers did not tend to develop dementia and Alzheimer's disease.
我们将其视为阿尔茨海默病的潜在治疗方法，因为当时，嗯，《科学》杂志上发表了一篇论文，指出吸烟者不易患痴呆症和阿尔茨海默病。
And so it also left the caveat of do they actually live long enough to develop,
所以它也留下了一个警告：它们是否真的活得足够长来发育，
Andrew Huberman: what's
安德鲁·休伯曼：什么是
Chris McCurdy: the answer?
克里斯·麦柯迪：答案是什么？
Dementia.
痴呆。
And, uh, we don't know however.
而且，呃，我们不知道。
Since that time in the, in the nineties, the whole cholinergic hypothesis of Alzheimer's disease evolved.
自上世纪九十年代以来，阿尔茨海默病的整个胆碱能假说不断发展。
And those are the major treatments we have for dementia through the FDA approved process.
这些是我们通过 FDA 批准的流程治疗痴呆症的主要疗法。
Now,
现在，
Andrew Huberman: I'm so glad you, you mentioned I've gotten myself into real trouble covering nicotine.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我很高兴你提到我在尼古丁问题上遇到了真正的麻烦。
Chris McCurdy: Mm-hmm.
克里斯·麦柯迪：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: With, uh, where I put the caveats after Yeah.
Andrew Huberman：嗯，我在“是”之后添加了警告。
The statement about nicotine being, uh, potentially neuroprotective in Parkinson's and Alzheimer's.
关于尼古丁对帕金森氏症和阿尔茨海默氏症有潜在神经保护作用的说法。
Yeah.
是的。
People will take that, cut that run with it, come back later and say, I'm addicted to nicotine pouches.
人们会接受这一点，停止跑步，稍后回来说，我对尼古丁袋上瘾了。
I always, uh, follow that statement with, it raises blood pressure, it's highly habit forming slash addictive and, um, has a bunch of other issues that might make most people want to avoid it, but nonetheless, nicotine, which stimulates the Yeah.
我总是，呃，遵循这样的说法，它会升高血压，这是一种高度习惯性的斜线成瘾，而且，嗯，有很多其他问题可能会让大多数人想要避免它，但尽管如此，尼古丁，它会刺激“是的”。
Cholinergic pathway, as you point out, does seem to be protective against, uh, a loss of cognitive function.
正如您所指出的，胆碱能通路似乎确实可以防止认知功能丧失。
That's right.
这是正确的。
At least somewhat and loss of neurons.
至少有一定程度的神经元损失。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Dopamine and cholinergic neuron.
多巴胺和胆碱能神经元。
So, uh, I'm not That's right.
所以，呃，我不是这样的。
And that's where, and I don't get paid by big nicotine.
就在那里，我并没有得到大量尼古丁的报酬。
Yeah.
是的。
Chris McCurdy: You know, and I, and that's what drove a lot of research back in those days to really see, could we, could we find something?
克里斯·麦柯迪：你知道，我，这就是当时推动大量研究的原因，我们真的能找到一些东西吗？
The, the idea was, the, the hypothesis really was could we find a nicotine that one wasn't addictive, two, didn't interact with the cardiovascular system.
这个想法是，这个假设真的是我们能找到一种尼古丁，一是不会上瘾，二是不会与心血管系统相互作用。
And three, ideally that we could put in a vitamin every day that people could take to, to ward off.
第三，理想的是我们可以每天添加人们可以服用的维生素来预防。
Neurodegeneration and no darn darn otherwise, I, I don't think I'd be sitting here talking to you.
神经退行性疾病，不然的话，我，我想我不会坐在这里和你说话。
No, no. You'd be on a yacht someplace.
不，不。你会在某个地方的一艘游艇上。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Actually, I take that back.
安德鲁·休伯曼：事实上，我收回那句话。
You'd probably be on a yacht someplace that has a small chemistry lab and you'd be probably, uh, you'd probably running mass spec marine
你可能会在一艘有小型化学实验室的游艇上，你可能会，呃，你可能会运行质谱海洋
Chris McCurdy: natural products.
克里斯·麦柯迪：天然产品。
Exactly.
确切地。
So, yeah.
所以，是的。
But I, I think, you know, that, that led to me going to a postdoc at the University of Minnesota and working for opioid chemist that really defined chemically the opioid receptors through analogs of, of naturally occurring opioids like morphine.
但我认为，你知道，这导致我去明尼苏达大学攻读博士后，并为阿片类化学家工作，通过吗啡等天然阿片类药物的类似物，真正从化学角度定义了阿片类药物受体。
Um, and then, um, it kind of launched me into my own career of saying, Hey, I've worked now on natural products, even though I didn't work directly with those natural products.
嗯，然后，嗯，这让我进入了自己的职业生涯，我说，嘿，我现在从事天然产品的研究，尽管我没有直接使用那些天然产品。
I've always felt what I said earlier about this sort of balance in nature.
我一直感受到我之前所说的这种自然平衡。
And I wanted to pursue natural products.
我想追求天然产品。
And so when I got to the University of Mississippi, which happens to be, uh, uh, natural Products Mecca, uh, for, for pharmaceutical natural products research, there's the National Center for Natural Products Research.
所以当我到达密西西比大学时，那里恰好是，呃，呃，天然产品圣地，呃，对于药物天然产品研究来说，那里有国家天然产品研究中心。
There, there's the National Institute on Drug Abuses, uh, federal marijuana Farm is there.
那里有国家药物滥用研究所，呃，联邦大麻农场就在那里。
It was the only legal federal marijuana farm for decades.
这是几十年来唯一合法的联邦大麻农场。
Um, and it was like landing in the perfect place to do what I wanted to do.
嗯，这就像降落在一个完美的地方去做我想做的事情。
And so that's where I started working on Sal Divinorum and Sal Divinorum, uh, generated a compound called Salvador Na, which is.
这就是我开始研究 Sal Divinorum 的地方，Sal Divinorum，呃，生成了一种名为 Salvador Na 的化合物，它是。
To this day thought to be one of the most potent hallucinogens, um, non nitrogen containing diterpene.
至今仍被认为是最有效的致幻剂之一，嗯，不含氮的二萜。
We talk about terpenes very similar, not very similar structurally to cannabinoids, but in composition, just carbon, hydrogen, oxygen.
我们谈论的萜烯非常相似，在结构上与大麻素不太相似，但在成分上，只有碳、氢、氧。
It interacted, uh, with kappa opioid receptors and kappa opioid receptors.
它与 kappa 阿片受体和 kappa 阿片受体相互作用。
There's a huge difference between mu opioid receptors, kappa opioid receptors, and delta opioid receptors.
μ阿片受体、κ阿片受体和δ阿片受体之间存在巨大差异。
Those are the three sort of traditionally accepted, um, opioid family receptors.
这些是传统上接受的三种阿片类受体。
Mu uh, is actually the Greek letter and was defined by Morpheus, the God of dreams, which is morphine got its name and that's where the mu receptor sort of nomenclature came from.
Mu 呃，实际上是希腊字母，由梦之神 Morpheus 定义，吗啡因此得名，mu 受体的命名法也由此而来。
And since it was related back to Greek mythology, they gave it the Greek symbol mu.
由于它与希腊神话有关，他们给它起了希腊符号mu。
And then when they found these other receptors, Kappa and Delta, they just maintained that Greek sort of nomenclature.
然后，当他们发现其他受体 Kappa 和 Delta 时，他们只是保留了希腊语的命名法。
We all know that mu is the primary target for clinically used analgesics.
我们都知道mu是临床使用镇痛药的首要靶点。
It also causes the euphoria.
它也会引起欣快感。
Kappa opioid receptors also have analgesic effects, and it was for a long time thought that targeting kappa opioid receptors was the holy grail of painkillers because you got the same pain relief as you would get with something like morphine or even more potent opioids.
Kappa 阿片受体也具有镇痛作用，长期以来，人们认为针对 kappa 阿片受体是止痛药的圣杯，因为您可以得到与吗啡或更有效的阿片类药物相同的疼痛缓解效果。
But the animals didn't wanna abuse it.
但动物们并不想滥用它。
So they've moved into human clinical trials and we learned something in psychiatry at that moment that kappa opioid receptors cause dysphoria instead of euphoria.
因此，他们已经进入人体临床试验，我们当时在精神病学中了解到，卡帕阿片受体会引起烦躁而不是欣快。
Andrew Huberman: So people don't like the effect, so
Andrew Huberman：所以人们不喜欢这种效果，所以
Chris McCurdy: people don't like the effect.
克里斯·麦柯迪：人们不喜欢这种效果。
However, there's a group of people out there that's tend to like whatever that is
然而，有一群人倾向于喜欢任何事物
Andrew Huberman: being miserable
安德鲁·胡伯曼：痛苦
Chris McCurdy: or that makes them feel better.
克里斯·麦柯迪：或者说这让他们感觉更好。
Maybe they're miserable by nature and that makes them feel better.
也许他们生性痛苦，这让他们感觉好一些。
I don't know what is there.
我不知道那里有什么。
But there was a whole group of people using salvia divinorum, um, plant.
但有一整群人在使用鼠尾草，嗯，植物。
It's called diner sage.
它被称为食客圣人。
It's a mint from Oaxaca, Mexico that was used by shaman there to, to diagnose people.
这是来自墨西哥瓦哈卡州的薄荷，当地的萨满用它来诊断人们的病情。
When they couldn't figure things out, they would give it to the subject and then that would open up their mind and hopefully tell them what was wrong with them.
当他们无法弄清楚事情时，他们会将其交给受试者，然后这会打开他们的思维，并希望告诉他们出了什么问题。
And then if the patient couldn't tell the shaman what was wrong, the shaman would resort to taking himself to go into the spiritual world to figure out what was wrong, right?
然后，如果病人无法告诉萨满出了什么问题，萨满就会带自己进入精神世界来找出问题所在，对吧？
So this is fascinating plant.
所以这是一种迷人的植物。
And that plant is the plant that led me to miano species.
正是这种植物让我找到了米亚诺物种。
And so I was funded by nida National Institute on Drug Abuse.
因此，我得到了奈达国家药物滥用研究所的资助。
To study Salvia Divinor.
研究 Salvia Divinor。
And my program officer, who's the person that manages your grant from the institute, contacted me and said, Hey, uh, I'd like to invite you to this neuroscience meeting and give a talk on naturally occurring pain medications or substances.
我的项目官员，也就是管理你的研究所资助的人，联系了我并说，嘿，呃，我想邀请你参加这个神经科学会议，并就天然存在的止痛药或物质进行演讲。
And so I said, that sounds cool.
所以我说，这听起来很酷。
That should be easy.
那应该很容易。
There's aspirin, there's morphine, there's this.
有阿司匹林，有吗啡，还有这个。
And so I dove into the literature and started looking for, um, all these different sources of naturally occurring pain medications.
所以我深入研究文献并开始寻找，嗯，所有这些不同来源的天然止痛药。
And lo and behold, there was Mitro Speciosa with an incredible track record of study by Smith Kline and French, which was now GlaxoSmithKline back in the sixties.
你瞧，Mitro Speciosa 在 Smith Kline 和 French 的研究中有着令人难以置信的记录，French 就是现在的 GlaxoSmithKline，早在 60 年代就已经存在了。
They isolated Mitro Gyan out of the plant.
他们将 Mitro Gyan 从工厂中分离出来。
They did as much.
他们也这么做了。
And to this day, it's still the most complete study in the literature.
直到今天，它仍然是文献中最完整的研究。
So 19, I think it's a 1972 paper by Mako, um, et al, uh, I can't remember the journal, but it detailed all the clinical development of Mitro.
所以19，我认为这是Mako等人1972年的一篇论文，呃，我不记得是什么期刊了，但它详细介绍了Mitro的所有临床开发。
And at the end of the day, they decided to not pull the trigger on full development because.
最终，他们决定不再启动全面开发，因为。
It was no better than codeine as an analgesic.
作为镇痛剂，它并不比可待因更好。
And at that time was the emergence of a new class of drugs called the non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs, which had no opioid activity, which were much safer.
当时出现了一类新的药物，称为非甾体抗炎药，它没有阿片类药物活性，安全性要高得多。
No habit forming properties.
没有形成习惯的特性。
You know, we've come to learn, there's problems with NSAIDs as well, like ibuprofen, liver issues, liver, kidney, um, GI bleeding also.
你知道，我们已经了解到，非甾体抗炎药也有问题，比如布洛芬、肝脏问题、肝脏、肾脏、嗯，还有胃肠道出血。
They're not that potent.
他们没那么强大。
Yeah, no, I mean, they're for mild pain.
是的，不，我的意思是，它们是为了缓解轻微疼痛。
They're for mild.
它们是温和的。
And Metin was even recognized back then as being very comparable codeine, which is really for more moderate pain.
当时，Metin 甚至被认为是非常类似的可待因，它确实适用于更温和的疼痛。
It's, it's not morphine, it's, that's a whole nother discussion, but it's much less potent than morphine.
它不是吗啡，这是另一个讨论，但它的效力比吗啡低得多。
Codeine is.
可待因是。
Um, it has great antitussive properties for cough and that's why they put it in cough syrups and it works better for that than it really does for pain control.
嗯，它对咳嗽有很好的镇咳作用，这就是为什么他们把它放入止咳糖浆中，它的效果比它真正控制疼痛的效果更好。
Um, but it was just an equivalent to that.
嗯，但这只是一个等价的。
And they said, there's no point in trying to compete with this new class that's safe.
他们说，尝试与这个安全的新类别竞争是没有意义的。
Right.
正确的。
Or thought to be safer.
或者认为更安全。
So they shelved the project at Smith Kline and French.
因此他们将这个项目搁置在史克公司和法国公司。
Thank God they did, because that's what I found.
感谢上帝他们做到了，因为这就是我发现的。
And that was when I realized nobody's touched this plant.
就在那时我意识到没有人碰过这种植物。
Andrew Huberman: Fantastic arc.
安德鲁·休伯曼：很棒的弧线。
Yeah.
是的。
And, um, one that really reflects a, a constant curiosity and, and willingness to see when a, when a door opens and go through it.
而且，嗯，真正反映了一种持续的好奇心，以及当一扇门打开并穿过它时愿意看到的意愿。
Yeah.
是的。
So, uh, it's a, it's really wonderful that you did, uh, clearly that's in your nature.
所以，呃，你这么做真的很棒，呃，显然这是你的本性。
And, um, I think one consistent theme throughout, um, there were several, uh, but what I heard were, uh, themes related to, uh, intense curiosity.
而且，嗯，我认为自始至终都有一个一致的主题，嗯，有几个，呃，但我听到的是，呃，与……呃，强烈的好奇心相关的主题。
Uh, a real practical grounding.
嗯，真正的实用基础。
You, you're a practical guy, it's clear.
很明显，你是一个务实的人。
You, you, this comes from your, your pharmacist, uh, father and your, your mom who impressing me.
你你你这个来自于你的你的药剂师,呃你的爸爸和你的你的妈妈给我留下了深刻的印象。
Uh, my wife, not my,
呃，我的妻子，不是我的，
Chris McCurdy: my wife may not agree with this, but, well, and your, and, and your mom who
克里斯·麦柯迪：我的妻子可能不同意这一点，但是，好吧，还有你、你的妈妈
Andrew Huberman: impressively is what I meant to say.
Andrew Huberman：令人印象深刻的是我想说的。
Right.
正确的。
Um, went back and, uh, you know, after raising you guys and, and, um, became a scientist in her own right.
嗯，回去后，呃，你知道，在抚养你们之后，嗯，她凭借自己的能力成为了一名科学家。
Yeah.
是的。
Um, and teacher, and then this element of public education, uh, teaching pharmacists, teaching neuroscientists went, I've long wanted to do an episode about
嗯，老师，然后公共教育的这个元素，呃，教授药剂师，教授神经科学家，我一直想做一集关于
Chris McCurdy: raum.
克里斯·麦柯迪：拉姆。
Andrew Huberman: Um, and, uh, for a variety of reasons, uh, the most important one being that many people ask about it and, and it's out there and it's having an impact and it's growing in usage.
Andrew Huberman：嗯，呃，出于多种原因，呃，最重要的一个是很多人都在问这个问题，而且它已经存在，正在产生影响，而且使用量也在不断增长。
Um, and that, uh, there's these very polarized views.
嗯，呃，有这些非常两极分化的观点。
You hear, this is the greatest thing ever.
你听着，这是有史以来最伟大的事情。
Help me or someone I know get off opioids.
帮助我或我认识的人戒掉阿片类药物。
And then you also hear this stuff is dreadfully bad,
然后你也会听说这些东西非常糟糕，
Chris McCurdy: right.
克里斯·麦柯迪：对。
Andrew Huberman: Um.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
In the course of, you know, researching Kratom, it's not hard to find your name because, uh, you're responsible for publishing the, the, you know, an enormous percentage of the, of the work on, on Kratom.
你知道，在研究 Kratom 的过程中，不难找到你的名字，因为，呃，你负责出版 Kratom 的很大一部分工作。
But I would also hear things from people like, gotta get Chris McCurdy on.
但我也会听到人们的声音，比如，得让克里斯·麦柯迪上场。
He's the Man I heard.
他就是我听说的那个人。
He's the man a lot.
他是很多人的男人。
Uh, and so I just really want to thank you for coming here today with, um, with the intention to teach.
呃，所以我真的想感谢你今天来到这里，嗯，带着教学的目的。
I've clearly learned, everyone's learned so much from this.
我清楚地了解到，每个人都从中学到了很多东西。
Thank you from hearing you, uh, today and your nuanced perspective that when someone says it's creative, good or bad, safe or not safe, you, you break it down.
谢谢你今天听到你的声音，以及你细致入微的观点，当有人说它有创意、好或坏、安全或不安全时，你、你会分解它。
Look, here are the different things we're talking about when we're talking about Creto.
听着，当我们谈论克里托时，我们谈论的是不同的事情。
And I'd list off some of the key takeaways earlier.
我会早些时候列出一些关键要点。
Um, serving size matters, um, CRE derived products versus is, uh, isolates, um, why are you using kratom?
嗯，份量很重要，嗯，CRE 衍生产品与是，呃，分离物，嗯，你为什么使用卡痛叶？
Maybe the F round and find out reason is not a good reason, you know?
也许F轮并找出理由并不是一个好理由，你知道吗？
Yeah, no. Is it pain relief?
是的，不。是缓解疼痛吗？
Is it to avoid or trying to, uh, alleviate a much more serious, um, condition or, or, uh, uh, addiction?
是为了避免还是试图，呃，缓解更严重的，嗯，状况，或者，或者，呃，呃，成瘾？
Um, in some cases, um, drug interactions.
嗯，在某些情况下，嗯，药物相互作用。
There's your pharmacist side.
这是你的药剂师那边。
Yeah.
是的。
The, the inter this case example of a, of a seizure and on and on.
在这个例子中，癫痫发作等等。
I mean, you've just done a spectacular job, uh, of explaining the nuance.
我的意思是，你刚刚完成了一项出色的工作，呃，解释了其中的细微差别。
Um, that one has to address that question with, I must also highlight that as somebody who's very interested in science and public health, but also the natural world.
嗯，这个人必须解决这个问题，我还必须强调，作为一个对科学和公共卫生以及自然世界非常感兴趣的人。
Um, you've done such a spectacular job of explaining how plants.
嗯，你在解释植物如何生长方面做得非常出色。
Contain these incredible compounds, interact with the animal world and with the human world and medicine, uh, for better or worse.
包含这些令人难以置信的化合物，与动物世界、人类世界和医学相互作用，呃，无论好坏。
Alright.
好吧。
And, uh, and that's a beautiful dance and, um, and you're clearly encyclopedic about all of it.
而且，呃，那是一段美丽的舞蹈，而且，嗯，你显然对这一切都如百科全书一样。
So
所以
Chris McCurdy: thank
克里斯·麦柯迪：谢谢
Andrew Huberman: you.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你。
Thank you so much for coming here, for sharing all this knowledge.
非常感谢您来到这里，分享所有这些知识。
So clearly people are going to be safer and are going to make excellent use of this knowledge, I'm sure.
很明显，我确信人们会变得更加安全，并且会充分利用这些知识。
And as things evolve in the world of Kratom and, uh, coa, leaf and cacao and, uh, uh, please come back and, and share with us what you discover.
随着卡痛世界的发展，呃，可可豆，树叶和可可，呃，呃，请回来，并与我们分享你的发现。
Yeah,
是的，
Chris McCurdy: absolutely.
克里斯·麦柯迪：当然。
Thank you so much for having me.
非常感谢你邀请我。
Thank you for giving me your platform as well to, to get this education out there.
感谢您为我提供平台，让我能够接受这种教育。
It, it needs to be out there and people need to understand that there, there may be benefits indeed, but there's, there's risks and, and there's potentially harm.
它需要存在，人们需要明白，那里确实可能有好处，但也存在风险，并且存在潜在的危害。
And, and we've gotta figure out where each of those lie.
而且，我们必须弄清楚它们各自的位置。
Andrew Huberman: Well, it's been a pleasure.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯，很高兴。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Chris McCurdy.
感谢您参加今天与 Chris McCurdy 博士的讨论。
To learn more about his work, please see the links in the show Note captions.
要了解有关他的作品的更多信息，请参阅节目注释标题中的链接。
If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple and on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请在 Spotify 和 Apple 上以及 Spotify 和 Apple 上单击“关注”按钮来关注播客。
You can leave us up to a five star review, and you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.
您可以给我们留下五星级的评论，您现在可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comment section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客、嘉宾或您希望我为 huberman Lab 播客考虑的主题有意见，请在 YouTube 上的评论部分留言。
I do read all the comments For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
我确实阅读了所有评论 对于那些还没有听说过的人，我有一本新书即将出版。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled Protocols and Operating Manual for the Human Body.
它的标题是《人体协议和操作手册》。
This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience, and it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise, to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation.
这是我花了五年多时间编写的一本书，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验，涵盖了从睡眠到锻炼、压力控制、与注意力和动机相关的各个方面的方案。
And of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
当然，我还为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called Protocols, an Operating Manual for the Human Body.
同样，这本书的名字是《人体操作手册》。
And if you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。
So that's Instagram X Threads, Facebook and LinkedIn.
这就是 Instagram X Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和科学相关工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。
Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
同样，所有社交媒体平台上都是 Huberman Lab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero cost monthly newsletter.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是零成本的每月时事通讯。
That includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.
其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，其中涵盖了从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available completely zero cost.
所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。
You simply go to huberman lab.com, go to the menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to newsletter, and enter your email.
您只需访问 huberman lab.com，转到右上角的菜单选项卡，向下滚动到时事通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件即可。
And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Chris McCurdy.
再次感谢您参加今天与 Chris McCurdy 博士的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。