Healing From Grief & Loss | Dr. Mary-Frances O’Connor
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor.
今天我的客人是玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士。
Dr. O'Connor is a professor of clinical psychology and psychiatry at the University of Arizona, where she directs the Grief, Loss, and Social Stress Laboratory.
奥康纳博士是亚利桑那大学临床心理学和精神病学教授，负责悲伤、失落和社会压力实验室。
Today, we discuss the neuroscience of attachment and loss and why grief literally feels painful in our bodies.
今天，我们讨论依恋和失落的神经科学，以及为什么悲伤会让我们的身体感到痛苦。
We also discuss the very real and serious health risks to being in a state of grief.
我们还讨论了处于悲伤状态的非常真实和严重的健康风险。
Throughout the episode, we discuss ways to navigate and recover from grief, either from the death of a person, the death of an animal, or from the loss of a relationship, job, or other role in our lives.
在整个剧集中，我们讨论了如何从悲伤中走出来并从中恢复，无论是人的死亡、动物的死亡，还是失去关系、工作或生活中其他角色的悲伤。
As you'll soon learn, Dr. O'Connor's research is both fascinating and incredibly surprising.
您很快就会了解到，奥康纳博士的研究既引人入胜又令人难以置信。
She discovered, for instance, that grief is best understood through the lens of human attachment, and that dopamine, a molecule that we normally hear about in the context of motivation and pleasure, creates a sense of yearning that is central to the grieving process.
例如，她发现，最好通过人类依恋的视角来理解悲伤，而多巴胺（我们通常在动机和快乐的背景下听到的一种分子）会产生一种渴望感，而这种渴望感是悲伤过程的核心。
She explains that to effectively move through grief, we have to work with both our feelings of protest and our feelings of despair.
她解释说，为了有效地度过悲伤，我们必须同时处理我们的抗议情绪和绝望情绪。
Those two things, the feelings of protest that we refuse to let go or our mind and body just don't want to let go, as well as the feelings of despair that we don't know what to do, that we feel like it's an endless sense of loss.
这两件事，我们拒绝放手的抗议感觉，或者我们的身心不想放手的感觉，以及我们不知道该怎么办的绝望感觉，我们觉得这是一种无尽的失落感。
Both of those feelings have to be acknowledged, and then we have to transmute those feelings into actions and feelings that maintain the memory of the person or role that we played in an active way, and yet move forward.
这两种感觉都必须得到承认，然后我们必须将这些感觉转化为行动和感觉，以积极的方式维持对我们所扮演的人或角色的记忆，并继续前进。
By the end of today's conversation, you'll have a much deeper understanding of grief, something that everyone goes through at some point in their lives, not just as an emotion, but as a specific psychological and physiological process.
在今天的对话结束时，您将对悲伤有更深入的了解，每个人在生命中的某个时刻都会经历悲伤，不仅仅是一种情绪，而且是一种特定的心理和生理过程。
The idea is not to intellectualize grief, but rather to better equip you to deal with it in more direct ways, so you can honor the loss more completely and be able to move forward, having grown from the experience.
这个想法不是为了让悲伤理性化，而是让你更好地以更直接的方式处理它，这样你就可以更彻底地纪念失去的人，并能够从经历中成长，继续前进。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是将有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息带给公众。
In keeping with that theme, this episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，这一集确实有赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor.
现在我与玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士进行讨论。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor, welcome.
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士，欢迎。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
It's so lovely to be here.
来到这里真是太好了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm a huge fan of your work.
我非常喜欢你的作品。
It's such important work.
这是如此重要的工作。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Everybody grieves at some point.
每个人都会在某个时刻感到悲伤。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No one is immune from this process that we call grieving, and we get very mixed messages-
没有人能免受这个我们称之为悲伤的过程的影响，我们得到的信息非常复杂——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
from a young age, all the way up to adulthood, about how best to grieve, what grieving is.
从年轻的时候，一直到成年，关于如何最好地悲伤，悲伤是什么。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And your work has really highlighted that this is a process-
你的工作确实强调了这是一个过程-
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that doesn't always play out the same way for everybody.
这对每个人来说并不总是以同样的方式发挥作用。
But if we were to try and drill into some of the core elements of grief.
但如果我们尝试深入探讨悲伤的一些核心要素。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not to be overly reductionist-
不要过于还原论——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but just if you could highlight for us what grief really is as a process, what some of the hallmarks of grief are, perhaps some things that everyone experiences that they shouldn't be shocked at.
但如果你能为我们强调悲伤真正是一个过程，悲伤的一些标志是什么，也许每个人都经历过一些不应该感到震惊的事情。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then we can weave into what your research has taught us about grief.
然后我们可以融入您的研究告诉我们的关于悲伤的知识。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Perfect.
完美。
I think it's good to understand that grief is the natural response to loss.
我认为理解悲伤是对失去的自然反应是有好处的。
It is a natural physical, emotional, mental reaction to the death of someone very close to us.
这是对我们非常亲近的人去世时的一种自然的身体、情感和精神反应。
And I think it can be helpful for people in unwinding some of these myths to think about the idea that there's a difference between grief and grieving.
我认为，思考悲伤和悲痛之间的区别，对于人们解开这些神话可能会有所帮助。
So grief is that, in that moment, I could say, "Andrew, on a scale of one to 10, how much grief are you feeling right now?" And you would be able to tell me right now, during this wave of grief, how you're doing.
所以悲伤就是，在那一刻，我可以说，“安德鲁，按照从 1 到 10 的等级，你现在感到有多悲伤？”现在，在这股悲伤的浪潮中，你可以告诉我你的情况如何。
But grieving is the way that grief changes over time.
但悲伤是悲伤随着时间的推移而变化的方式。
As you were saying, it's the process part.
正如你所说，这是过程部分。
So I think of it as sort of, you can imagine the stock market, right?
所以我认为这有点像，你可以想象股票市场，对吧？
Each day it's up, it's down, it's up, it's down.
每天都有涨，有跌，有涨，有跌。
Some days it's really down.
有些日子真的很沮丧。
Some days it's really up.
有几天真的涨了。
But at the end of the year, you can still see that there's been a trajectory, right?
但到了年底，你仍然可以看到有一个轨迹，对吗？
For the year, the stock market might actually be up, even though you had some really terrible days.
今年，股市实际上可能会上涨，尽管你度过了一些非常糟糕的日子。
I think knowing that helps us to see that grief will never go away, because it is a human emotion.
我认为了解这一点有助于我们认识到悲伤永远不会消失，因为这是一种人类情感。
Whenever we're aware, whenever we remember that our loved one is gone, we're going to have a wave of grief.
每当我们意识到，每当我们想起我们所爱的人已经去世，我们都会感到一阵悲伤。
And that's okay 25 years later.
25年后也没关系。
But it doesn't mean that there hasn't been a process of grieving.
但这并不意味着没有悲伤的过程。
I think of grieving as a form of learning.
我认为悲伤是一种学习形式。
Learning how to live with the loss of this person.
学习如何承受失去这个人的痛苦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I'm trying to square two things that we've all heard.
所以我试图将我们都听说过的两件事联系起来。
One is that time heals all wounds, and the other is that absence makes the heart grow fonder.
一是时间可以治愈一切伤口，二是缺席使心变得更加亲近。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Part of the reason I became a biologist is because of puzzles like this.
我成为一名生物学家的部分原因是因为这样的难题。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You don't have to have a particularly high IQ to realize that the world is full of contradictions.
你不需要有特别高的智商，就能意识到这个世界充满了矛盾。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So which one is it?
那么是哪一个呢？
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
I think it really helps us to hone in on the idea that you can't talk about grief without talking about love and bonding, because unless you understand what you have, you don't really understand the impact of its loss, right?
我认为这确实有助于我们加深这样的观念：如果不谈论爱和联系，就不能谈论悲伤，因为除非你了解自己拥有什么，否则你就不会真正了解失去它的影响，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
So absence makes the heart grow fonder is a fantastic way to describe attachment.
因此，缺席使心变得更亲密，这是描述依恋的绝佳方式。
Right?
正确的？
When you fall in love with your baby or you fall in love with the person who becomes your spouse, that bond that gets created between the two of you when you form an us It comes with this implicit belief, "I will always be there for you.
当你爱上你的孩子或爱上成为你配偶的人时，当你们形成我们时，你们两个之间就会建立起这种纽带，它伴随着这种隐含的信念：“我将永远在你身边。
You will always be there for me," and time and distance will not change that.
你将永远在我身边”，时间和距离都不会改变这一点。
If you are gone, it just means I have to go find you.
如果你走了，那就意味着我必须去找你。
And so now we have this unique and terrible circumstance of death where when we have a living loved one, the correct response to absence is to think about them more, to put more energy into going to find them or making more noise so they come and find you.
所以现在我们面临着这种独特而可怕的死亡情况，当我们有一个活着的亲人时，对缺席的正确反应是更多地考虑他们，投入更多的精力去寻找他们或制造更多的噪音，以便他们来找你。
But in death, suddenly we have this circumstance that the brain is really going to struggle to wrap itself around, which is the idea that I'm not going to find you, no matter how much effort I put in.
但在死亡时，突然我们会遇到这样的情况，大脑真的会挣扎着将自己包裹起来，这就是无论我付出多少努力，我都找不到你的想法。
I think of this as the gone but also everlasting theory, right?
我认为这是一个已经消失但又永恒的理论，对吗？
So of course, we know that they are gone.
所以我们当然知道他们已经走了。
We know that they've died.
我们知道他们已经死了。
We have a memory of being at their bedside maybe, or getting that phone call, or being at the funeral, or whatever it is in our memory.
我们可能有在他们床边的记忆，或者接到那个电话，或者参加葬礼，或者我们记忆中的任何事情。
We have it recorded.
我们已将其记录下来。
We know that they're gone.
我们知道他们已经走了。
But the attachment neurobiology means there's also this implicit belief, but maybe they're out there.
但依恋神经生物学意味着也存在这种隐含的信念，但也许它们就在那里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Right?
对吗？
And those two things, those two streams of information, they're gone, they're everlasting, can't both be true.
这两件事，这两股信息流，它们都消失了，它们是永恒的，不可能都是真的。
And when we become aware, when we have that moment where we recognize those are in conflict, we have a wave of grief.
当我们意识到这一点时，当我们意识到这些人之间存在冲突时，我们就会感到一阵悲伤。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I would like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Wealthfront.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Wealthfront。
I've been using Wealthfront for my savings and for my investing for nearly a decade, and I absolutely love it.
近十年来，我一直使用 Wealthfront 进行储蓄和投资，我非常喜欢它。
At the start of every year, I set new goals, and one of my goals for 2025 is to focus on saving money.
每年年初，我都会设定新的目标，2025 年的目标之一就是专注于省钱。
Since I have Wealthfront, I'll keep that savings in my Wealthfront cash account, where I'm able to earn 4% annual percentage yield on my deposits, and you can as well.
由于我拥有 Wealthfront，我会将这笔储蓄保留在我的 Wealthfront 现金账户中，在那里我可以通过存款赚取 4% 的年收益率，您也可以。
With Wealthfront, you can earn 4% APY on your cash from partner banks until you're ready to either spend that money or invest it.
通过 Wealthfront，您可以从合作银行获得 4% 的现金年化收益，直到您准备好花掉这些钱或进行投资。
With Wealthfront, you also get free instant withdrawals to eligible accounts every day, even on weekends and holidays.
通过Wealthfront，您还可以每天免费即时提款到符合条件的账户，即使在周末和节假日也是如此。
The 4% APY is not a promotional rate, and there's no limit to what you can deposit and earn.
4% 年利率并非促销利率，您可以存款和赚取的金额没有限制。
And you can even get protection for up to $8 million through FDIC insurance provided through Wealthfront's partner banks.
您甚至可以通过 Wealthfront 合作银行提供的 FDIC 保险获得高达 800 万美元的保护。
Wealthfront gives you free instant withdrawals, where it takes just minutes to transfer your money to eligible external accounts.
Wealthfront 为您提供免费即时提款，只需几分钟即可将您的资金转入符合条件的外部账户。
It also takes just minutes to transfer your cash from the cash account to any of Wealthfront's automated investment accounts when you're ready to invest.
当您准备好投资时，只需几分钟即可将现金从现金账户转移到 Wealthfront 的任何自动投资账户。
There are already a million people using Wealthfront to save more, earn more, and build long-term wealth.
已有一百万人使用 Wealthfront 来储蓄更多、赚取更多并建立长期财富。
Earn 4% APY on your cash today.
今天就用现金赚取 4% 年化收益。
If you'd like to try Wealthfront, go to wealthfront.com/huberman to receive a free $50 bonus with a $500 deposit into your first cash account.
如果您想尝试Wealthfront，请访问wealthfront.com/huberman，在您的第一个现金账户中存入500美元即可获得免费的50美元奖金。
That's wealthfront.com/huberman to get started now.
现在就开始吧：www.realityfront.com/huberman。
This has been a paid testimonial of Wealthfront.
这是 Wealthfront 的付费推荐。
Wealthfront Brokerage isn't a bank.
Wealthfront Brokerage 不是银行。
The APY is subject to change.
APY 可能会发生变化。
For more information, see the episode description.
有关更多信息，请参阅剧集描述。
Today's episode is also brought to us by BetterHelp.
今天的节目也是由 BetterHelp 为我们带来的。
BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online.
BetterHelp 提供由持证治疗师完全在线进行的专业治疗。
I've been doing weekly therapy for over 30 years.
我每周进行一次治疗已经有 30 多年了。
In fact, I consider doing regular weekly therapy just as important as getting regular exercise, which of course I also do every week.
事实上，我认为每周定期进行治疗与定期锻炼一样重要，当然我每周也会进行锻炼。
There are essentially three things that great therapy provides.
伟大的治疗本质上可以提供三件事。
First of all, great therapy provides a great rapport with somebody that you can trust and talk to about any and all issues with.
首先，良好的治疗可以与您可以信任的人建立良好的融洽关系，并可以与您谈论任何和所有问题。
Second of all, great therapy provides support in the form of emotional support or directed guidance.
其次，出色的治疗以情感支持或定向指导的形式提供支持。
And third, expert therapy can provide useful insights.
第三，专家治疗可以提供有用的见解。
Sometimes those come from the therapist, sometimes you realize those yourself in the course of therapy, and sometimes you arrive at those insights together.
有时这些来自治疗师，有时您在治疗过程中自己意识到这些，有时您一起得出这些见解。
Those insights can allow you to make changes to improve your life in immeasurable ways, not just your emotional life and your relationship life, but also your professional life.
这些见解可以让你做出改变，以不可估量的方式改善你的生活，不仅是你的情感生活和人际关系生活，还有你的职业生活。
With BetterHelp, they make it very easy to find an expert therapist you resonate with and that can provide you these benefits that come through effective therapy.
通过 BetterHelp，他们可以很容易地找到与您产生共鸣的专家治疗师，并且可以通过有效的治疗为您提供这些好处。
Interestingly, in a recent survey, 72% of BetterHelp members reported a reduction in negative symptoms as a result of their BetterHelp therapy sessions.
有趣的是，在最近的一项调查中，72% 的 BetterHelp 会员表示，接受 BetterHelp 治疗后，阴性症状有所减轻。
If you'd like to try BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month.
如果您想尝试 BetterHelp，请访问 betterhelp.com/huberman，第一个月可享受 10% 的折扣。
Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman.
再说一次，这是 betterhelp.com/huberman。
From what I understand about the research on stress, so much of our ability to tolerate stress is knowing that it has a defined endpoint.
根据我对压力研究的了解，我们承受压力的能力很大程度上取决于知道它有一个明确的终点。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So if we look at, or if you look at from the perspective of your clinical work, because you are indeed a clinical psychologist as well as a researcher-
所以如果我们看，或者说你从你临床工作的角度看，因为你确实是一个临床心理学家，同时也是一个研究员——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a psychologist/neuroscientist.
心理学家/神经科学家。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You wear many hats.
你身兼数职。
Is there any evidence, like what are the data on people that have some time to anticipate the loss of someone or a pet, or maybe even a certain aspect of life, like a job?
是否有任何证据，比如有哪些数据表明人们有时间预测失去某人或宠物，甚至可能失去生活的某个方面，比如工作？
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
They've been laid off, but they get some time before their final day.
他们被解雇了，但在最后一天之前他们还有一些时间。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Or retirement.
或者退休。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or retirement, or somebody is slowly dying.
或者退休，或者有人正在慢慢死去。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Versus a sudden death, a shock, a car accident, or worse.
与突然死亡、休克、车祸或更糟的情况相比。
What do the data tell us about how that grief is handled?
关于如何处理悲伤，数据告诉我们什么？
Is it easier in some sense when you know there's an endpoint because you can anticipate the end?
当你知道有一个终点因为你可以预见结局时，从某种意义上来说是不是更容易？
What's known about this?
这件事有什么已知的？
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
I think there's a couple things there that I highlight.
我认为有几件事我要强调。
We can think about something being stressful, and we can think about grieving for it, and those might be slightly different, but we can get there.
我们可以考虑一些有压力的事情，我们可以考虑为此悲伤，这些可能略有不同，但我们可以做到这一点。
But what I would say most directly to your question is, yes, it is true that sudden losses are harder for us to learn, to understand what's happened, because we don't even have sort of a conscious, we've never run the scenario sort of through our mind, so of course it's more difficult for us to now imagine it.
但对于你的问题，我最直接地说的是，是的，确实，突然的损失让我们更难学习、理解发生了什么，因为我们甚至没有意识，我们从来没有在我们的脑海中运行过这样的场景，所以当然我们现在更难以想象它。
But there's more to it than that.
但还有更多的事情要做。
So we do know For example, having closure conversations with someone who's in hospice care.
所以我们确实知道 例如，与接受临终关怀的人进行结束对话。
These are helpful, actually, after the loss because we can reflect on getting to say, "I love you," and, "Thank you," and, "I forgive you," "Please forgive me," to say goodbye.
事实上，在失去亲人之后，这些都是有帮助的，因为我们可以反思说“我爱你”、“谢谢你”、“我原谅你”、“请原谅我”来告别。
We know that having that conscious process is helpful later on as we're reflecting on the loss.
我们知道，当我们反思损失时，有意识的过程是有帮助的。
But I will say that it doesn't necessarily change the attachment biology.
但我要说的是，这并不一定会改变依恋生物学。
So the attachment is an implicit belief.
所以执着是一种隐含的信念。
It is an everlasting belief.
这是一个永恒的信念。
And so I think it is actively trying to prevent us from learning that they are gone.
所以我认为它正在积极试图阻止我们得知他们已经消失了。
And so what you see is a person-- This will happen in studies.
所以你看到的是一个人——这会发生在学习中。
I ask a participant, "Tell me about the death of your loved one." And they'll tell me the story of how they were in palliative care, and they had this terminal diagnosis and so forth.
我问一位参与者：“告诉我你所爱的人去世的事。”他们会告诉我他们如何接受姑息治疗的故事，以及他们如何得到这个晚期诊断等等。
And then I'll say, "Was the death sudden?" And they'll say, "Oh, absolutely.
然后我会问：“死亡是突然的吗？”他们会说：“哦，当然。
I had no idea." Because I think that the belief that they will always be there does not respond to logical thinking, you see?
我不知道。”因为我认为他们永远存在的信念并不符合逻辑思维，你明白吗？
And so you can still pick up the phone to text your loved one even though you have known they were going to go, even though you know they've been gone, because there's a piece of your brain that is still operating under the belief, "They don't have to be in my time and space for them to exist."
所以你仍然可以拿起电话给你所爱的人发短信，即使你知道他们会离开，即使你知道他们已经离开了，因为你大脑的一部分仍然在这样的信念下运作：“他们不必在我的时间和空间中才能存在。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
And so I think in some ways, the learning might actually be, how do I transform my understanding of this relationship now that they're not on this earthly plane?
所以我认为在某些方面，学习实际上可能是，既然他们不在这个地球上，我如何改变我对这种关系的理解？
How do I understand where they are or how that makes sense?
我如何理解它们在哪里或者这有什么意义？
How can I have this continuing bond in my internal relationship with them, right?
我怎样才能在与他们的内部关系中保持这种持续的联系，对吧？
Maybe I still tell them about my day, or maybe when I see things, I think, "Oh, my mom would love that," right?
也许我仍然告诉他们我的一天，或者也许当我看到事情时，我想，“哦，我妈妈会喜欢的，”对吧？
I have this moment of connection internally with my mom because that internal relationship goes on.
在这一刻，我与妈妈建立了内在的联系，因为这种内在的关系仍在继续。
It is everlasting.
它是永恒的。
At the same time that I know, "Oh, she's not going to be at my wedding," or, "She's not going to be at graduation," right?
同时我知道，“哦，她不会参加我的婚礼，”或者，“她不会参加毕业典礼，”对吗？
You can have both at the same time.
您可以同时拥有两者。
I think that's part of why grieving is so confusing and makes people feel like they're losing their mind.
我认为这就是为什么悲伤如此令人困惑并让人们感觉他们正在失去理智的部分原因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
The question that immediately comes to mind is whether some people have challenges getting through the grief process because of a kind of deliberate refusal to enter this new reality, that they're both gone and that there are elements of them that are still alive within us, as you pointed out, in the form of the attachment.
我立即想到的问题是，是否有些人在经历悲伤过程时遇到挑战，因为他们故意拒绝进入这个新的现实，他们都已经离开了，但他们的某些元素仍然存在于我们体内，正如你所指出的，以依恋的形式。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The attachment lives on.
依恋依然存在。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The body no longer lives on.
身体已经不能再活了。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's difficult to decide whether or not movies like "Ghost," I think that was the movie, right?
很难决定是否是像《人鬼情未了》这样的电影，我想这就是电影，对吧？
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Where she loses her spouse-
她失去配偶的地方——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or a loved one, I don't recall if it was a spouse, and he's essentially still there with her.
或者是一个所爱的人，我不记得是否是一位配偶，而他基本上仍然和她在一起。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Movies like that, you could imagine, are kind of a double-edged blade because, on the one hand, they give people the sense that the person they miss and are so attached to is still there.
你可以想象，这样的电影是一把双刃剑，因为一方面，它们让人们感觉他们想念和依恋的人仍然在那里。
But that's a movie-
但这是一部电影——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
where they could actually write in the image of the person-
他们实际上可以按照人物的形象书写——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and create some complications.
并造成一些并发症。
So do people delay the grieving process?
那么人们会推迟悲伤的过程吗？
Do they protract it and just make it much harder on themselves in a kind of a stubborn refusal to, quote-unquote, "let go"?
他们是否会拖延时间，并顽固地拒绝“放手”，从而让自己变得更加困难？
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I could understand why that would be.
我能理解为什么会这样。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've been guilty of this-
我曾为此感到内疚——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the past.
过去。
Is that common?
这很常见吗？
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
I think the question is askew in the sense that there is no letting go of the attachment part.
我认为这个问题是歪斜的，因为没有放弃附件部分。
There is transforming our understanding of what that means.
我们对其含义的理解正在发生转变。
So for most periods of history, periods of time, cultures, we have usually a social system, often a religion, set up to explain to us, where did they go?
因此，对于大多数历史时期、时期、文化来说，我们通常有一个社会体系，通常是一种宗教，用来向我们解释它们去了哪里？
Are they okay now?
他们现在还好吗？
Will I ever see them again?
我还能再见到他们吗？
Most of us through most of history have had a way to understand, ah, I can't see them now.
我们大多数人在大部分历史中都有一种方式来理解，啊，我现在看不到它们了。
I will see them eventually.
我最终会见到他们。
Día de los Muertos, I will see them once a year, right?
亡灵节，我每年都会见到他们一次，对吗？
Or they are in heaven now, or they're in the pure lands, or they're my ancestor.
或者他们现在在天堂，或者他们在净土，或者他们是我的祖先。
There is a relationship that I can have with them.
我可以和他们建立一种关系。
I can ask them to speak on my behalf, so to speak, right?
我可以请他们代表我发言，可以这么说，对吧？
Intercessory prayers in Catholicism.
天主教中的代祷。
So historically, we've had this way of understanding this internal relationship that is so real you could put it on film.
所以从历史上看，我们有这样的方式来理解这种内部关系，这种关系是如此真实，你可以把它拍成电影。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
It is really happening.
这确实正在发生。
And they are also not present.
而且他们也不在场。
So when I think of what it means to adjust, and I don't think of it as recovery, I don't think of it as letting go, I think of it as integration.
所以当我想到调整意味着什么时，我不认为这是恢复，我不认为这是放手，我认为这是整合。
When I think about those things, I think, what is my relationship?
当我思考这些事情时，我想，我的关系是什么？
What is my internal relationship with this deceased person now?
我现在与这个死者的内部关系是什么？
So my mother was diagnosed with stage four breast cancer when I was 13, and there were cancer cells in every lymph node they cut out of her, so they knew it had already migrated.
因此，当我 13 岁时，我母亲被诊断出患有第四期乳腺癌，他们从她身上切除的每个淋巴结中都有癌细胞，所以他们知道癌细胞已经迁移了。
And I think they told my dad that she would only live another year.
我想他们告诉我爸爸她只能再活一年。
She actually-- Her oncologist called her his first miracle.
事实上，她的肿瘤科医生称她为他的第一个奇迹。
She actually lived another 13 years.
她实际上又活了13年。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Which is Miraculous.
这真是神奇。
But what it meant was we learned to live in this state of sort of waiting for the second shoe to drop.
但这意味着我们学会了生活在这种等待第二只鞋落地的状态中。
And I think because of that, I just became really comfortable and familiar with grief.
我想正因为如此，我才变得非常舒服并熟悉悲伤。
It doesn't bother me when my participants I'm interviewing sort of cry uncontrollably, and then they apologize, and I say, "This is just what grief is.
当我采访的参与者失控地哭泣，然后他们道歉时，我并不介意，我说：“这就是悲伤。
This is just how it works." And so what it means is that now I have a very different relationship with my mother than I did at 26 when she died.
这就是它的工作原理。”这意味着现在我与母亲的关系与 26 岁时她去世时的关系截然不同。
At 26, I was really angry with her still.
26岁了，我仍然对她很生气。
Now, my friends in our 40s, suddenly my friends seemed really accepting of their mothers.
现在，我40多岁的朋友们，突然间我的朋友们似乎真的接受了他们的母亲。
Their relationships with their mothers improved.
他们与母亲的关系有所改善。
They were like, "Well, I understand why she did the things she did," or, "Now I'm so grateful for blah blah blah." And I had a whole lot of grief because I didn't get to do that.
他们说，“好吧，我明白她为什么要做这些事”，或者，“现在我非常感激等等等等。”我非常悲伤，因为我没能做到这一点。
I didn't get to have that transformation of our relationship.
我没有让我们的关系发生这种转变。
And then I realized, wait a minute, I can still have all those thoughts.
然后我意识到，等一下，我仍然可以有所有这些想法。
I can look in the mirror now, because I look a lot like her.
我现在可以照镜子了，因为我看起来很像她。
I can look in the mirror now and be like, "I'm doing this for you, Mama." Or, "It's not the way I would have done things, but I get that you had a reason." And forgive her.
我现在可以看着镜子说：“妈妈，我这样做是为了你。”或者，“这不是我做事的方式，但我知道你有理由。”并原谅她。
And doing that with the internal representation matters to how I function in my day-to-day life now, but it has nothing to do with letting go.
用内部表征来做到这一点对于我现在在日常生活中的运作很重要，但这与放手无关。
Do you see what I mean?
你明白我的意思吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
You can still adapt to a world where the person is gone, and that is incredibly painful.
你仍然可以适应一个失去了这个人的世界，这是令人难以置信的痛苦。
And also, they live on because they are deeply encoded in your brain.
而且，它们之所以能够存在，是因为它们深深地编码在你的大脑中。
You cannot get rid of them.
你无法摆脱它们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
They are there with you, physiologically with you, and you can work with that relationship now as well, so that I can spend time with my living loved ones.
他们在你身边，在生理上和你在一起，你现在也可以处理这种关系，这样我就可以和我活着的亲人共度时光。
I don't spend a lot of time feeling guilty about how I handled her death or something like that.
我不会花很多时间对我如何处理她的死亡或类似的事情感到内疚。
I'm busy living my life now because I've integrated my relationship with her.
我现在正忙着过我的生活，因为我已经把我和她的关系融为一体了。
Does that make sense?
这有道理吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That makes very good sense.
这很有道理。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm wondering if you could touch on some of the work that you've done related to how grief relates to the attachment and how attachment relates to wanting.
我想知道您是否可以谈谈您所做的一些工作，这些工作涉及悲伤与依恋的关系以及依恋与需求的关系。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because you've made this incredible discovery that the dopamine system, which most people associate with pleasure and-
因为你已经做出了令人难以置信的发现，即多巴胺系统，大多数人将其与快乐联系在一起，并且——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
thanks to the wonderful work of Anna Lembke and others, there's been more education now, and people are more aware now of the fact that dopamine is much more about wanting than having.
感谢安娜·伦布克（Anna Lembke）和其他人的出色工作，现在有了更多的教育，人们现在更加意识到多巴胺更多的是关于想要而不是拥有。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
More about craving than-
更多关于渴望的事比——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
delighting in.
欣喜于.
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I, and I think everybody else, will be kind of shocked to learn that dopamine and grief have a very close relationship.
但我，我想其他人，如果得知多巴胺和悲伤有着非常密切的关系，一定会感到震惊。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
It's the hallmark of grieving is yearning, pining, right?
悲伤的标志就是渴望、渴望，对吗？
These are other words for wanting, aren't they?
这些都是想要的其他词，不是吗？
And that dopamine, I've heard it described as dopamine and the reward system, is really how much effort would you put in to get this thing you want, right?
多巴胺，我听说它被描述为多巴胺和奖励系统，实际上就是你要付出多少努力才能得到你想要的东西，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
How much effort would you put in?
你会付出多少努力？
How much effort would you put in to see your loved one again, right?
为了再次见到你所爱的人，你会付出多少努力，对吗？
One more time.
再一次。
And what that tells me, and really this came from the neuroscience, so I said earlier that you could think of stress and grief as somewhat distinct.
这告诉我，这实际上来自神经科学，所以我之前说过，你可以认为压力和悲伤有些不同。
We used to think of the loss of a loved one as sort of like, you can imagine you have a plate, right?
我们曾经认为失去亲人就像是，你可以想象你有一个盘子，对吧？
You've got all the things heaped on your plate you have to deal with.
你的盘子里已经堆满了你必须处理的事情。
You've got getting the kids to school, you've got your boss, you've got blah blah blah.
你要送孩子们上学，你要照顾你的老板，你要等等等等。
And now you've got this another thing heaped onto your plate.
现在你的盘子里又堆满了另一件事。
You have the loss of your spouse or the loss of your sister.
您失去了配偶或姐妹。
That is one way to think about it.
这是一种思考方式。
And in our peripheral physiology, a lot of the ways we respond look like a stress response, so that makes sense.
在我们的外周生理学中，我们的很多反应方式看起来都像是压力反应，所以这是有道理的。
That was a good way to think about it in the '80s and early '90s.
在 80 年代和 90 年代初，这是一个很好的思考方式。
But the neuroimaging research, when we asked people, "Tell me how much you're yearning for your loved one," and then we put them in the scanner and we showed them photos of their loved one, compared those to them looking at a stranger.
但是在神经影像学研究中，当我们问人们“告诉我你有多渴望你所爱的人”，然后我们将他们放入扫描仪中，并向他们展示他们所爱的人的照片，并将这些照片与他们看着陌生人的照片进行比较。
So what part is unique?
那么什么部分是独特的呢？
Not looking at a person, but looking at your person that you're yearning for.
不是在看一个人，而是在看你向往的那个人。
We saw that there was this little area deep in the brain called the nucleus accumbens.
我们看到大脑深处有一个小区域，称为伏隔核。
Probably from other studies, we know it's sort of in the neighborhood, caudate, ventral striatum sort of area.
可能从其他研究中，我们知道它位于邻近、尾状、腹侧纹状体之类的区域。
And what we saw was the more people said, "I'm yearning for my loved one," there was a direct correlation with how much activity there was in the nucleus accumbens, in this reward learning area of the brain.
我们看到，越多的人说“我渴望我所爱的人”，这与大脑奖励学习区域的伏核的活动量直接相关。
Now, in everyone who was bereaved, regardless of how much grief severity they were having, we saw things like memory areas.
现在，在每个失去亲人的人身上，无论他们的悲伤有多么严重，我们都看到了像记忆区域这样的东西。
Of course.
当然。
They're looking at a photo of their loved one.
他们正在看一张他们所爱的人的照片。
They're having all sorts of memories of when the photo was taken or whatever.
他们对照片拍摄时间或其他什么都有各种各样的记忆。
We had lots of emotion areas, emotion regulation areas, even some areas that had to do with autonomic physiology regulation.
我们有很多情绪区域、情绪调节区域，甚至一些与自主生理调节有关的区域。
But what made it so unique was this idea that yearning is something that varies among people who are grieving, and that it might be, in part, instantiated in this brain-encoded region that says, "I'm looking at this photo, and what that makes me want to do is reach out for you." And I think this was a very new way to understand what is lost.
但让它如此独特的是这样一种想法，即渴望在悲伤的人中是不同的，并且它可能在一定程度上在这个大脑编码区域中被实例化，该区域说：“我正在看这张照片，这让我想做的就是向你伸出援手。”我认为这是理解失去的东西的一种非常新的方式。
It isn't something new that's heaped onto your plate.
这并不是什么新鲜事。
It's a part of us that was formed when you bonded Has been amputated.
它是我们的一部分，是在你被截肢时形成的。
You don't have the resources.
你没有资源。
You can't function in the world.
你无法在这个世界上发挥作用。
You can't walk through the grocery store without figuring out how to do that without this other person.
如果你不知道在没有其他人的情况下该怎么做，你就无法穿过杂货店。
And then often yearning to have them back so that you could walk through the world in the normal way again.
然后常常渴望让它们回来，这样你就可以再次以正常的方式行走在这个世界上。
There's nothing wrong with yearning.
向往并没有什么错。
It's just that we understand better now how the brain is doing it.
只是我们现在更好地了解了大脑是如何运作的。
And I can tell you if you want, but I've gone on a bit here.
如果你愿意的话我可以告诉你，但我已经在这里说了一些。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, please.
不，请。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
I can tell you if you want.
如果你愿意的话我可以告诉你。
A lot of people did point out, wait, this is the same area of the brain that's related to addiction.
很多人确实指出，等等，这正是与成瘾相关的大脑区域。
A lot of people talked about, are we addicted to our loved ones?
很多人谈论，我们是否沉迷于我们所爱的人？
And it took me-- I never wrote about it in the 2008 paper.
我花了很长时间——我从未在 2008 年的论文中写过这件事。
I never wrote about it that way.
我从来没有这样写过。
But I've come up with a better maybe way to communicate, I think, what's going on.
但我想，我想出了一种可能更好的方式来沟通正在发生的事情。
So I live in the desert Southwest in Tucson, Arizona.
所以我住在亚利桑那州图森市西南部的沙漠里。
And I can tell you, if you forget your water bottle and you are out on a hike and you're halfway through, you cannot think of anything else other than water, right?
我可以告诉你，如果你忘记了水瓶，而你出去徒步旅行，而你已经走了一半，除了水你就不会想到其他任何东西，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
You are obsessed with thinking about it, getting it, imagining it, and so forth.
你沉迷于思考它、得到它、想象它等等。
But no one would say you were addicted to water, right?
但没人会说你对水上瘾了，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Water is something we need, and we have a homeostatic function that says you need more of it.
水是我们所需要的，并且我们有体内平衡功能，表明您需要更多水。
And then once we have it, we feel satiated, right?
一旦我们拥有它，我们就会感到满足，对吗？
Yearning for a loved one is that kind of thirst.
对所爱的人的渴望就是这种渴求。
We need our attachment figures like we need food and water.
我们需要我们的依恋对象，就像我们需要食物和水一样。
They are basic to our survival, and I think we forget that in modern society where we can sort of fill in for so many needs.
它们是我们生存的基础，我认为我们忘记了在现代社会中我们可以满足如此多的需求。
We need our spouse.
我们需要我们的配偶。
We need our children, our parents, our siblings, and we fail to thrive when we don't have them.
我们需要我们的孩子、我们的父母、我们的兄弟姐妹，如果没有他们，我们就无法茁壮成长。
And so I think the activation in that area is just the cue of you really need to reach out for this person.
因此，我认为该区域的激活只是提示您确实需要联系这个人。
And the process of grieving is, if I'm going to reach out, it's going to look different than it did before.
悲伤的过程是，如果我伸出援手，事情看起来会与以前有所不同。
Maybe I'm going to have a conversation, maybe I'm going to talk to my sister.
也许我要谈谈，也许我要和我姐姐谈谈。
But also, you have to find another way to get your attachment needs met.
而且，你还必须找到另一种方法来满足你的依恋需求。
There has to be someone else in your life whom you would say, "I will always be there for you.
你的生命中一定有一个人，你会对他说：“我会永远在你身边。
You will always be there for me," because this person who's left this earthly plane cannot be that anymore.
你将永远在我身边”，因为离开这个地球的人不能再是这样了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So interesting.
太有趣了。
I loosely define addiction as a progressive narrowing of the things that bring you pleasure.
我将成瘾粗略地定义为逐渐缩小给你带来快乐的事物。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you beautifully described how on a hike in the desert Southwest, when you need water, the narrowing-
你精彩地描述了在西南沙漠徒步旅行时，当你需要水时，狭窄的-
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of what brings you pleasure comes down to what you need for survival.
给你带来快乐的东西归根结底取决于你生存所需的东西。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And presumably, once you have that water, then your notion of what's pleasureful expands again.
据推测，一旦你喝了水，你对快乐的看法就会再次扩展。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Whereas addiction to, say, methamphetamine or to some process addiction or behavioral addiction, it really becomes like a tunnel.
比如说，对甲基苯丙胺或某些过程成瘾或行为成瘾的成瘾，它实际上变得像一条隧道。
There's one thing and that one thing only.
有一件事，而且只有一件事。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And sadly, in addiction, the rewarding properties of that thing also become diminished with time.
可悲的是，在成瘾中，该事物的奖励特性也会随着时间的推移而减弱。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the way you describe grief as a sort of addiction-like, like the process of grieving sort of addiction-like in that sense, raises for me a question.
但是你将悲伤描述为一种类似上瘾的方式，就像在这个意义上类似上瘾的悲伤过程，给我提出了一个问题。
You said that at some point, in order to move through, I don't want to say get over, because one-
你说在某个时刻，为了度过难关，我不想说克服，因为一——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Integrate, maybe
整合起来，也许
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to integrate the grieving process, one needs to either find a replacement attachment figure.
为了整合悲伤的过程，人们需要找到一个替代的依恋人物。
We don't like to think about this when we lose someone, but if it's a spouse, sometimes people remarry or repartner, and sometimes they don't.
当我们失去某人时，我们不喜欢考虑这个问题，但如果是配偶，有时人们会再婚或重新伴侣，有时则不会。
But it's kind of a beautiful thing, really, to observe that.
但观察到这一点确实是一件很美好的事情。
I've seen that several times over, when somebody repartners and they seem like that attachment need is met, at least partially.
我已经多次看到这种情况，当有人重新合作时，他们的依恋需求似乎得到了满足，至少是部分满足。
It's not the same, but it's met differently again.
不一样，却又不一样的遇见。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But sometimes people refuse.
但有时人们会拒绝。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They hold on to the attachment or morph the attachment in a way that they are with that person forever to the exclusion of replacing that attachment figure.
他们以一种永远与那个人在一起的方式坚持依恋或改变依恋，而不是更换那个依恋人物。
Are there any data that speak to which one works better?
有没有数据可以说明哪一种效果更好？
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or is it just kind of who you're at and where you're at in life and some people are really stubborn with this aspect of the grief integration process.
或者这只是你是谁以及你在生活中所处的位置，而有些人对悲伤整合过程的这一方面非常顽固。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
I think recently a lot about what is a good outcome.
我最近想了很多关于什么是好的结果。
I've spent a lot of time in my career thinking, what is a bad outcome when we're grieving, and how might we most help people who are not integrating this in a way that's allowing them to restore a meaningful life?
在我的职业生涯中，我花了很多时间思考，当我们悲伤时，什么是糟糕的结果，以及我们如何才能最有效地帮助那些没有以一种让他们恢复有意义的生活的方式整合这一点的人？
And I've shied away a lot from the question of what is a good outcome, because I think it has a normative quality to it.
我一直回避什么是好的结果这个问题，因为我认为它具有规范性。
But I've started thinking about it in a very open way.
但我已经开始以一种非常开放的方式思考这个问题。
So the first thing I would say is, I really don't think of it as addiction-like.
所以我要说的第一件事是，我真的不认为它是上瘾的。
So our need for our loved ones, much like food and water, is this homeostatic process, right?
那么我们对亲人的需求，就像食物和水一样，就是这种稳态过程，对吗？
You think, oh, I'm visiting you, right, for this podcast, and at some point, there's some push notification in my brain that says, "You should text your partner." Right?
你想，哦，我正在拜访你，对吧，为了这个播客，在某个时刻，我的大脑中有一些推送通知说：“你应该给你的伴侣发短信。”正确的？
And I pull out my phone and I text him, and I wait for a few minutes, and then he responds, and I get that little, oh, he's there.
我拿出手机给他发短信，我等了几分钟，然后他回复了，我得到一点，哦，他在那里。
He knows where I am.
他知道我在哪里。
We're good.
我们很好。
That's not an addiction, right?
这不是上瘾吧？
That is the normal homeostatic process, just like I also got up and ate breakfast because I knew that I needed that, right?
这是正常的体内平衡过程，就像我起床吃早餐一样，因为我知道我需要早餐，对吧？
So I think with addiction, the problem is those drugs of abuse override exactly these circuits that work in a homeostatic way.
所以我认为，对于成瘾，问题在于那些滥用药物恰好覆盖了这些以稳态方式工作的回路。
And by overriding them, they either pare down the number of receptors or mess with the affinity of the receptors in such a way that it really does narrow what's rewarding to only this drug, because only this drug can powerfully over- Fill those receptors.
通过覆盖它们，它们要么减少受体的数量，要么扰乱受体的亲和力，从而确实缩小了仅对这种药物有益的范围，因为只有这种药物才能强有力地过度填充这些受体。
And now we have a situation where only meth is the thing that makes us feel better, but not quite the same with food, water, and living loved ones.
现在我们面临的情况是，只有冰毒才能让我们感觉更好，但食物、水和活着的亲人却不太一样。
To your question of, and I think you've actually really hit on something that our culture is really struggling with right now.
对于你的问题，我认为你实际上真的想到了我们的文化目前正在努力解决的问题。
We've lost, in our culture, a lot of the grief literacy that was based around an understanding of what happens during bereavement, during mourning, that was very religiously focused, religiously oriented, right?
在我们的文化中，我们已经失去了很多悲伤素养，这些素养是基于对丧亲期间、哀悼期间发生的事情的理解，这是非常宗教性的、以宗教为导向的，对吗？
So everything from sitting shiva to having the mass after a year, right?
那么从坐湿婆到一年后举行弥撒，一切都是如此，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or a wake.
或者叫醒。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Or a wake.
或者叫醒。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
With the body there.
身体在那里。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
With the body right there.
身体就在那里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've been to a wake.
我去守灵了。
People are laughing.
人们在笑。
People are telling jokes.
人们在讲笑话。
They're drinking.
他们正在喝酒。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I remember the first time I went to a-
我记得我第一次去——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
proper Irish wake.
适当的爱尔兰守灵。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I was thinking, "This is wild."
我在想，“这太疯狂了。”
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I didn't quite know how to be.
我不太知道该怎么做。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And after some period of time, I caught on.
一段时间后，我明白了。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it was remarkable.
这很了不起。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's clearly effective-
显然是有效的——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for people that adhere to the Irish wake as a-
对于那些坚持爱尔兰守灵的人们来说——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
That's right
没错
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the body is right there.
身体就在那里。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Dead as can be.
死了就可以了。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And everyone's having a party.
每个人都在开派对。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
That's right.
没错。
With the name Mary Frances O'Connor, it will not surprise you to know-
玛丽·弗朗西斯·奥康纳这个名字，你不会感到惊讶——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
...
...
that I grew up in a big Irish Catholic family, and we used to say, in the summers, we saw our cousins for weddings, and in the winter, we saw our cousins for funerals.
我在一个爱尔兰天主教大家庭长大，我们常说，夏天，我们看到我们的表兄弟参加婚礼，冬天，我们看到我们的表兄弟参加葬礼。
And we had these wakes.
我们有这些觉醒。
I saw numerous deceased bodies, as a child, of my family members while running around playing tag with my cousins.
当我还是个孩子的时候，当我和我的表兄弟玩捉迷藏时，我看到了许多家人的尸体。
And what that does is, it is a cultural way to say, grief happens, death happens.
其作用是，用一种文化的方式来说，悲伤发生了，死亡发生了。
This is what it looks like, and you can respond in a lot of different ways.
这就是它的样子，你可以用很多不同的方式做出回应。
Because I will tell you while there is drinking and playing tag, there is also a lot of crying and a lot of leaning on shoulders.
因为我告诉你，在喝酒、玩捉迷藏的同时，也有很多哭泣、很多靠肩膀的事情。
It gives you some form of organization for how to understand the strong feelings that you're having.
它为您提供了某种形式的组织来如何理解您所拥有的强烈感受。
But in a different culture, they'll hire funeral singers so that there can be singing while everyone is weeping.
但在不同的文化中，他们会聘请葬礼歌手，以便在每个人都在哭泣时可以唱歌。
Right?
正确的？
So my point here is that we stand in an unusual moment in history and culture where we don't mostly adhere to some system for how to handle death and grief.
所以我的观点是，我们正处于历史和文化的一个不寻常的时刻，我们基本上不遵守某种处理死亡和悲伤的制度。
And what it means is, people are left to sort of manage those intense emotions without a lot of modeling, without a lot of philosophical understanding of what's going on, and disconnected often from their families of origin because those don't make sense to us right now.
这意味着，人们只能在没有大量建模的情况下管理这些强烈的情绪，没有对正在发生的事情进行大量的哲学理解，并且经常与他们的原生家庭脱节，因为这些对我们现在来说没有意义。
I'm not suggesting that we go back to a time when Catholicism was the way or Judaism was the only way.
我并不是建议我们回到天主教为道路或犹太教为唯一道路的时代。
I'm not suggesting that.
我并不是这么建议的。
What I'm suggesting is anyone who has attachment, so this can be prairie voles, little rodents that mate for life.
我建议的是任何有依恋的人，所以这可以是草原田鼠，一种终生交配的小啮齿动物。
This can be infants.
这可能是婴儿。
This can be good, functioning human adults like you and me.
这可以是像你我一样善良、有功能的成年人。
When there is loss, when that attachment figure is missing and deceased, it is something our brain, our body, our mind is going to react to intensely.
当失去时，当那个依恋对象失踪并死亡时，我们的大脑、我们的身体、我们的思想将会对此做出强烈的反应。
And without some way of understanding what is that supposed to look like, and how do I manage this, we are adrift.
如果没有某种方式理解它应该是什么样子，以及我该如何管理它，我们就会随波逐流。
And what it means, so John Bowlby, who really developed this theory of attachment, when he was looking at infants and colleagues of his were looking at animals, you see these invisible tethers.
这意味着什么，约翰·鲍尔比（John Bowlby）真正发展了这种依恋理论，当他观察婴儿和他的同事观察动物时，你会看到这些看不见的绳索。
You think about the polar bear with the little baby polar bears coming along behind.
你想象一下北极熊和跟在后面的小北极熊。
You always see the following.
你总是会看到以下内容。
The following, those invisible tethers, they're not invisible.
下面那些看不见的绳索，它们并不是看不见的。
They are in the brains of those attached animals and humans in the form of neurobiology, of dopamine and oxytocin and cortisol and adrenaline, and in specific brain regions with receptors.
它们以神经生物学、多巴胺、催产素、皮质醇和肾上腺素的形式存在于那些附着的动物和人类的大脑中，并且存在于具有受体的特定大脑区域中。
Those tethers are what are keeping us searching for mom or for baby or for spouse, right?
正是这些束缚让我们不断寻找母亲、婴儿或配偶，对吗？
And so left to our own devices, without any way of understanding this, all we know is we're having these intense emotions, reactions, behaviors, thoughts.
因此，就让我们自己处理，没有任何方式理解这一点，我们所知道的就是我们有这些强烈的情绪、反应、行为和想法。
And John Bowlby divided the types of reactions that we see into two.
约翰·鲍尔比将我们看到的反应类型分为两种。
Protest and despair.
抗议和绝望。
Now, protest is the, so let's say you're in the grocery store and you look down and your toddler is not next to you, and you think, "Oh, no. They're gone." And you can even hear the embodiment of that, right?
现在，抗议就是这样，假设你在杂货店，你往下看，你的孩子不在你旁边，你会想，“哦，不。他们走了。”你甚至可以听到它的体现，对吧？
I am primed with every hormone and neurochemical to search for that child.
我已准备好使用所有激素和神经化学物质来寻找那个孩子。
You can feel that in your body.
你可以在你的身体里感受到这一点。
That is protest.
那就是抗议。
"Oh, no, they're gone?" Despair, on the other hand, despair is sitting in the living room and something arrives in the mail for your spouse, and you know they are never going to open it.
“哦，没有，他们走了吗？”另一方面，绝望是坐在客厅里，你的配偶收到了一些东西，而你知道他们永远不会打开它。
And in that moment, you think, "Oh No, they are gone.
在那一刻，你会想：“哦，不，他们走了。
And the gravity of that, right?
这很严重，对吧？
You can feel that in your body as well.
你也可以在你的身体里感受到这一点。
The giving up, the withdrawal, just the lethargy of it.
放弃，退缩，只是昏昏欲睡。
Right?
对吗？
Now, notice that the information is the same.
现在，请注意信息是相同的。
"Oh, no, they're gone" is something we have to learn.
“哦，不，他们走了”是我们必须学习的。
And one way we learn that is protesting and trying to prove that they're not gone, and the acknowledgement, the accepting that they are gone.
我们了解到这一点的一种方式是抗议并试图证明他们没有消失，然后承认、接受他们已经消失了。
Now, we don't often think of despair as having a purpose, but what's interesting is, in this moment, despair has the function of stopping us from searching.
现在，我们通常不认为绝望是有目的的，但有趣的是，在这个时刻，绝望具有阻止我们寻找的功能。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
And searching is physically very costly.
而且搜索的物理成本非常高。
The amount of energy it takes to create the blood pressure and the cortisol to reach out like that.
产生血压和皮质醇所需的能量才能达到这样的程度。
And so that despair does actually have a function.
所以绝望确实有其作用。
That withdrawal is for good reason, but many people are terrified of feeling despair.
这种退出是有充分理由的，但许多人害怕感到绝望。
Some people are terrified of feeling protest as well and just avoid any thoughts or reminders in any way.
有些人也害怕感受到抗议，只是以任何方式避免任何想法或提醒。
But here's the thing, despair isn't the end of the story either.
但事情是这样的，绝望也不是故事的结局。
And this is not a stage model.
而且这不是舞台模型。
These are responses we have over and over again as we're trying to understand this new world we're living in.
当我们试图了解我们所生活的这个新世界时，我们会一遍又一遍地得到这些回应。
But despair leaves out hope.
但绝望却留下了希望。
Despair says, "They are really gone, and because they're never coming back, I am going to feel like this for the rest of my life." And that's not true either.
绝望说：“他们真的走了，而且因为他们再也不会回来了，我的余生都会有这样的感觉。”但这也不是真的。
Right?
对吗？
We know that you can have grief, you can grow a life that restores meaning, and that you do have other connections with people.
我们知道你可以承受悲伤，你可以让生活恢复意义，而且你确实与人有其他联系。
I wouldn't say replacing, but I would say adding, because now you know what it means to love someone.
我不会说替换，但我会说添加，因为现在你知道爱某人意味着什么。
You know what it means to forgive and all those things you learned with your loved one, you can now love others as well.
你知道宽恕意味着什么，你从你所爱的人身上学到的所有这些，现在你也可以爱别人了。
Or, for some people, it isn't about creating new relationships.
或者，对于某些人来说，这不是为了建立新的关系。
It's about having a transcendent experience.
这是关于拥有超越的体验。
Now I can love nature, or I can love God because I was taught how to do it by having this connection with this one vitally important person in my life.
现在我可以爱自然，或者我可以爱上帝，因为我被教导如何通过与我生命中这个至关重要的人建立这种联系来做到这一点。
Or even, now I know how to care for myself.
或者甚至，现在我知道如何照顾自己。
I know how to love and care for and forgive and appreciate myself because my loved one taught me how to do that.
我知道如何爱、关心、原谅和欣赏自己，因为我所爱的人教会了我如何做到这一点。
This is what I mean about there's no normative outcome.
这就是我所说的没有规范结果的意思。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Those are four very different life trajectories after the loss of someone that can all fulfill our attachment needs.
在失去一个可以满足我们依恋需求的人之后，这是四种截然不同的生活轨迹。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 daily for more than 13 years.
正如你们许多人所知，我每天服用 AG1 已经超过 13 年了。
However, I've now found an even better vitamin mineral probiotic drink.
然而，我现在找到了一种更好的维生素矿物质益生菌饮料。
That new and better drink is the new and improved AG1.
这种新的、更好的饮料就是新的、改进的 AG1。
This next-gen formula from AG1 is a more advanced, clinically backed version of the product that I've been taking daily for years.
AG1 的新一代配方是我多年来每天服用的产品的更先进、经过临床支持的版本。
It includes new bioavailable nutrients and enhanced probiotics.
它包括新的生物可利用的营养素和增强的益生菌。
The next-gen formula is based on exciting new research on the effects of probiotics on the gut microbiome, and it now includes several specific clinically studied probiotic strains that have been shown to support both digestive health and immune system health, as well as to improve bowel regularity and to reduce bloating.
下一代配方基于关于益生菌对肠道微生物组影响的令人兴奋的新研究，它现在包括几种经过临床研究的特定益生菌菌株，这些菌株已被证明可以支持消化健康和免疫系统健康，以及改善肠道规律性和减少腹胀。
As someone who's been involved in research science for more than three decades, and in health and fitness for equally as long, I'm constantly looking for the best tools to improve my mental health, physical health, and performance.
作为一个从事科学研究超过三十年、在健康和健身领域也同样长期从事的人，我一直在寻找最好的工具来改善我的心理健康、身体健康和表现。
I discovered and started taking AG1 way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since.
早在 2012 年，我就发现并开始服用 AG1，那时我还没有播客，从那时起我就每天都服用它。
I find that it greatly improves all aspects of my health.
我发现它极大地改善了我健康的各个方面。
I just feel so much better when I take it.
当我服用它时，我感觉好多了。
With each passing year, and by the way, I'm turning 50 this September, I continue to feel better and better, and I attribute a lot of that to AG1.
年复一年，顺便说一句，今年九月我就满 50 岁了，我的感觉越来越好，我将这很大程度上归功于 AG1。
AG1 uses the highest quality ingredients in the right combinations, and they're constantly improving their formulas without increasing the cost.
AG1 使用最优质的成分进行正确的组合，并且在不增加成本的情况下不断改进其配方。
So I'm honored to have them as a sponsor of this podcast.
所以我很荣幸他们成为这个播客的赞助商。
If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。
Right now, AG1 is giving away an AG1 welcome kit with five free travel packs and a free bottle of vitamin D3 K2.
现在，AG1 正在赠送 AG1 欢迎套件，其中包含五个免费旅行包和一瓶免费维生素 D3 K2。
Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim the special welcome kit with five free travel packs and a free bottle of vitamin D3 K2.
请再次访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 领取特别欢迎套装，其中包含 5 个免费旅行包和一瓶免费维生素 D3 K2。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Helix Sleep.
今天的节目也是由 Helix Sleep 为我们带来的。
Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep needs.
Helix Sleep 生产根据您独特的睡眠需求定制的床垫和枕头。
Now, I've spoken many times before on this podcast about the fact that getting a great night's sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance.
现在，我之前在这个播客上多次谈到过这样一个事实：睡个好觉是心理健康、身体健康和表现的基础。
When we aren't doing that on a consistent basis, everything suffers.
当我们不能始终如一地这样做时，一切都会受到影响。
And when we are sleeping well and enough, our mental health, our physical health, and our performance in all endeavors improves markedly.
当我们睡眠充足且良好时，我们的心理健康、身体健康以及我们在所有努力中的表现都会显着改善。
Now, the mattress you sleep on makes a huge difference in terms of the quality of sleep that you get each night.
现在，您所睡的床垫会对您每晚的睡眠质量产生巨大影响。
How soft that mattress is, how firm it is, how breathable it is, all play into how well you'll sleep, how much deep sleep you get, how much rapid eye movement sleep, and it needs to be tailored to your unique sleep needs.
床垫的柔软程度、硬度、透气程度，都会影响您的睡眠质量、睡眠深度、快速眼动睡眠时间，并且需要根据您独特的睡眠需求进行定制。
So if you go to the Helix website, you can take a brief two-minute quiz, and it will ask you questions such as, do you sleep on your back, your side, or your stomach?
因此，如果你访问 Helix 网站，你可以做一个两分钟的简短测验，它会问你一些问题，比如你是仰卧、侧卧还是俯卧？
Do you tend to run hot or cold during the night?
你晚上容易感到热还是冷？
Things of that sort.
诸如此类的事情。
Maybe you know the answers to those questions.
也许您知道这些问题的答案。
Maybe you don't.
也许你不知道。
Either way, Helix will match you to the ideal mattress for you.
无论哪种方式，Helix 都会为您匹配理想的床垫。
For me, that turned out to be the Dusk mattress, D-U-S-K.
对我来说，这就是 Dusk 床垫，D-U-S-K。
I started sleeping on a Dusk mattress about three and a half years ago, and it's been far and away the best sleep that I've ever had.
大约三年半前，我开始睡在 Dusk 床垫上，这无疑是我睡过的最好的睡眠。
So if you'd like to try Helix, you can go to helixsleep.com/huberman, take that two-minute sleep quiz, and Helix will match you to a mattress that is customized for your unique sleep needs.
因此，如果您想尝试 Helix，可以访问 helixsleep.com/huberman，参加两分钟的睡眠测验，Helix 将为您匹配专为您独特的睡眠需求定制的床垫。
Right now, Helix is giving a special offer to Huberman Podcast listeners of up to 27% off sitewide, plus free bedsheets with any luxe or elite mattress order.
目前，Helix 正在为 Huberman 播客听众提供高达 27% 的全场特别优惠，并且订购任何豪华或精英床垫即可免费获得床单。
What you just said is so critically important that, if I may, I'm just going to summarize for myself and for those listening, and I'll never pass up the opportunity to weave in a little neuroscience lesson.
你刚才所说的非常重要，如果可以的话，我只想为自己和听众进行总结，并且我永远不会错过加入一点神经科学课程的机会。
And since you're a fellow neuroscientist-
既然你是一位神经科学家同事——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Love that
喜欢那个
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
hopefully you'll collaborate with me on this.
希望您能在这方面与我合作。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Love that.
喜欢那个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what I heard was at least two divergent responses to grief.
所以我听到的至少是两种对悲伤的不同反应。
One is a protest, the other is a despair, broadly speaking.
从广义上讲，一种是抗议，另一种是绝望。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In protest, it's a, "No, I don't accept."
作为抗议，这是“不，我不接受”。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But there's an action step.
但有一个行动步骤。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's a go response.
有一个 go 响应。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we know in the basal ganglia, a critical structure for action generation-
我们知道基底神经节是产生行动的关键结构——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and action suppression, we can broadly think in terms of go and no go-
和行动抑制，我们可以广泛地思考“走”和“不走”——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as separate circuits, literally.
从字面上看，作为单独的电路。
So the protest circuit is a go circuit that's nested on this notion of hope-
所以抗议巡回赛是一个嵌套在希望概念之上的围棋巡回赛——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that it can be resolved through action.
可以通过行动来解决。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The despair circuit is a, "Ugh, I can't act on this.
绝望回路是：“呃，我不能对此采取行动。
I can't hand this letter to somebody.
我不能把这封信交给别人。
I can't call them.
我不能打电话给他们。
I can text them, but they're not going to see it."
我可以给他们发短信，但他们不会看到。”
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this is a no-go pathway.
而这是一条绝路。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The suppression of action.
压制行动。
And you said that action is metabolically costly, inaction is not costly.
你说行动的新陈代谢代价很高，不行动则代价不高。
I'm not going to challenge that, but I have a question about that, which is, it seems what's required in the despair step for it to be adaptive, functional, healing, is for that no-go to be converted into some new context.
我不会质疑这一点，但我对此有一个问题，那就是，似乎在绝望的步骤中，要使其具有适应性、功能性、治愈性，需要将这种不可行的情况转化为某种新的环境。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And as neuroscientists, we know that context-dependent decision making, strategy setting, is this prefrontal cortical activity-
作为神经科学家，我们知道上下文相关的决策、策略设定就是这种前额皮质活动——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that humans are so good at.
人类如此擅长。
But it requires effort.
但这需要努力。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's like, "Ugh, I can't hand them the letter."
就像，“呃，我不能把这封信交给他们。”
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"But maybe I can do something else with the letter."
“但也许我可以用这封信做点别的事。”
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"Maybe I can tear it up and write to somebody else."
“也许我可以把它撕掉然后写给别人。”
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so I'm fascinated by this word that largely comes through Eastern philosophy, but this notion of transmutation.
所以我对这个主要来自东方哲学的词很着迷，但是这个嬗变的概念。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That we can take the energy of something and transmute it into something else that's functional.
我们可以将某物的能量转化为其他有功能的东西。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So this is a way that I see this divergent circuit.
这就是我看待发散电路的一种方式。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And now people are aware that I also, indeed, will never pass up the opportunity to weave in some additional neuroscience, because I think that what you're describing is grief as a natural and fundamental part of the attachment circuitry.
现在人们意识到，我确实也永远不会放弃加入一些额外的神经科学的机会，因为我认为你所描述的是悲伤，作为依恋回路的自然和基本部分。
We're born into the world-
我们降生到这个世界上——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
ready to attach.
准备好附加。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's what Bowlby and colleagues taught us.
这就是鲍尔比和同事教给我们的。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm also realizing, and I'm very excited about the fact, that we are born into the world also to grieve.
我也意识到，并且我对此感到非常兴奋，因为我们生在这个世界上也是为了悲伤。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And to learn when and how to go-
并了解何时以及如何去-
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to protest, and when to despair-
抗议，何时绝望——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to transmute.
转变。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
And I will say there is even some proof of that, or I think of it as proof in the following way.
我会说甚至有一些证据可以证明这一点，或者我将其视为以下方式的证据。
So you are correct that the no go, it's not that there's no cost with no go.
所以你说的不去是正确的，并不是说不去就没有成本。
You are correct.
你是对的。
So it does stop us from the type of go which is searching, right?
所以它确实阻止了我们进行搜索的 go 类型，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
So it stops maybe the cortisol or the adrenaline or something like that.
所以它可能会停止皮质醇或肾上腺素或类似的东西。
But it comes with its own, I think, largely things like inflammation and things that enable the withdrawal-
但我认为，它有其自身的特点，主要是炎症和导致戒断的因素——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
...
...
right?
对吗？
Probably shifting hormones.
可能是荷尔蒙的变化。
We know prolactin changes in grieving, oxytocin changes in grieving.
我们知道悲伤时催乳素的变化，悲伤时催产素的变化。
But think about it this way, so in a sort of evolutionary way, if your mate is gone, or your caregiver is gone, that withdrawal allows you to save resources because you don't know when they're coming back.
但这样想，以某种进化的方式，如果你的伴侣走了，或者你的照顾者走了，这种退出可以让你节省资源，因为你不知道他们什么时候会回来。
And that's important for your survival.
这对你的生存很重要。
But a transition through, "Oh, eventually I'm going to have to get my own food.
但过渡是，“哦，最终我将不得不自己买食物。
I am going to have to move again." But not in the frantic searching way.
我又得搬家了。”但不是以疯狂的搜索方式。
"I'm going to have to find meaningful activity to go on," right?
“我必须找到有意义的活动才能继续下去，”对吗？
So here is my theoretical reason why I believe we are set up to grieve.
这就是我相信我们注定要悲伤的理论原因。
I know that you had attachment figures as a child because you survived to adulthood.
我知道你小时候有依恋对象，因为你活到了成年。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Right?
对吗？
Proof.
证明。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Proof that someone loved you.
证明有人爱你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Now, children have caregivers as their primary attachment figures.
现在，孩子们将照顾者作为他们的主要依恋对象。
But now in your life, it is most likely that your primary attachment figure is a peer, like a spouse or boyfriend, girlfriend, et cetera, not your parent.
但现在在你的生活中，你的主要依恋对象很可能是一个同伴，比如配偶或男朋友、女朋友等等，而不是你的父母。
So something had to change, right?
所以有些事情必须改变，对吧？
And developmentally, we are prepared, we come into the world prepared with a neurobiological developmental program that at some point says, "My parent is no longer the peak of my attachment hierarchy.
从发展的角度来看，我们已经做好了准备，我们来到这个世界时，已经做好了神经生物学发展计划的准备，在某些时候，这个计划会说：“我的父母不再是我依恋层次的顶峰。
I'm looking around, I'm motivated to see friends, and I'm motivated to date, and I'm motivated to create these enduring relationships with people my own age." And that means that our attachment hierarchy can shift.
我环顾四周，我有动力去见朋友，我有动力去约会，我有动力与同龄的人建立这些持久的关系。”这意味着我们的依恋层次可以改变。
That we have the capacity in our neurobiology, in our hormones, to shift from a primary attachment to a parent, to a primary attachment to someone else.
我们的神经生物学和荷尔蒙有能力从对父母的主要依恋转变为对其他人的主要依恋。
And the capacity to do that is innate.
而这样做的能力是与生俱来的。
Now, I will say, of course, we are all programmed to do this at roughly the same period of our life.
现在，我要说的是，当然，我们都被编程为在生命的大致同一时期这样做。
Parents know, coming into the bargain, that this is going to happen.
父母们知道，在讨价还价中，这将会发生。
Although parents experience a lot of grief during the empty nest when it is actually occurring.
尽管父母在空巢期间经历了很多悲伤，但当它真正发生时。
When a loved one dies, a dear friend, 50 years old, her husband dies of a sudden heart attack right in front of her in the living room, there's not a whole cohort of you going through this experience together of transitioning to a different attachment hierarchy.
当一个所爱的人去世时，一个50岁的亲爱的朋友去世，她的丈夫在她面前的客厅里因心脏病突然去世时，你们中不会有一群人一起经历这种过渡到不同依恋层次的经历。
And we set up whole cultures around sending kids to college or sending them on a mission or sending them through basic training as a way to get this whole cohort of young people through this transitional period.
我们建立了围绕送孩子上大学、送他们去执行任务或送他们接受基础培训的整体文化，作为让这群年轻人度过这个过渡时期的一种方式。
What we need is support for these individuals who are dealing with the death of a sibling or a parent or a spouse or a child, who are all going through it on their own and trying to figure it out without that infrastructure to support them, to help them understand what is natural and normal during grieving.
我们需要的是为这些正在处理兄弟姐妹、父母、配偶或孩子的死亡的人提供支持，他们都在独自经历这一切，并试图在没有基础设施支持的情况下解决这个问题，帮助他们理解在悲伤期间什么是自然和正常的。
And because we know it is a medically risky time, much like college is a medically risky time in other ways, because it is a medically risky time, we need to be able to assess what's going on with them physiologically and make sure we're supporting their grieving body through this intensely stressful experience of transmuting.
因为我们知道这是一个有医疗风险的时期，就像大学在其他方面也是一个有医疗风险的时期一样，因为这是一个有医疗风险的时期，所以我们需要能够评估他们的生理状况，并确保我们在这种压力巨大的转变经历中支持他们悲伤的身体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And I don't know if I'm using that term correctly, but-
我不知道我是否正确使用了这个词，但是-
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and I can't say I'm the biggest Alan Watts fan that ever lived.
我不能说我是艾伦·沃茨有史以来最大的粉丝。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I like some of his stuff-
我喜欢他的一些东西——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
not others.
不是其他人。
But I've heard two things from him, one about transmutation, which I thought was beautiful and very apt, and from the perspective of neuroscience, made a lot of sense-
但我从他那里听到了两件事，一件事是关于嬗变的，我认为这很美丽，也很贴切，从神经科学的角度来看，很有意义——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because people talk about energy-
因为人们谈论能源——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the kind of new agey, whatever.
不管怎样，在新时代。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Crystals and mm-hmm.
水晶和嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, or even just the sort of non-scientific notion of energy-
是的，甚至只是一种非科学的能量概念——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
tends to be rather vague.
往往相当模糊。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And at the same time, it's more intuitive for most people.
同时，对于大多数人来说，它更加直观。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Whereas neuroscientists love to talk about neurochemical energy or-
然而神经科学家喜欢谈论神经化学能量或-
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
physiologist caloric energy.
生理学家的热量。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But when I think about the energy that we're talking about, I think about it more as neural circuit energy.
但当我思考我们正在谈论的能量时，我更多地将其视为神经回路能量。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which pathway, the go pathway or the no-go pathway-
哪条路是走的路还是不走的路——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
kind of requires our attention in order to-
需要我们的注意力才能-
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
move through this, in the same way that kids learn action generation-
经历这个，就像孩子们学习行动生成一样——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and they learn to sit still during a lesson.
他们学会在上课时安静地坐着。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some more slowly, like myself, than others.
有些人比其他人慢，比如我自己。
I blame my Y chromosome for that, because there's a known delay in the maturation of the prefrontal cortex-
我把这归咎于我的 Y 染色体，因为已知前额皮质的成熟存在延迟——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
That is true
确实如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in those with Y chromosomes.
在那些有 Y 染色体的人中。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It eventually catches up in most, but not all Y chromosome-possessing individuals.
它最终会在大多数（但不是所有）拥有 Y 染色体的个体中出现。
A different podcast for another time.
另一个时间的不同播客。
I am very struck by this idea that when an attachment is hindered, like in grief, that having others that are there to support us is extremely important, especially nowadays in this crisis of isolation.
我对这个想法感到非常震惊，即当依恋受到阻碍时，比如在悲伤中，有其他人在场支持我们是极其重要的，尤其是在当今这场孤立的危机中。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And in this time where we can communicate about our experience, we can learn so much about others' experiences, but we often don't have the fundamentals of support like touch.
在这个我们可以交流经验的时代，我们可以了解很多其他人的经验，但我们往往没有像触摸这样的基本支持。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just touch.
只需触摸即可。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hugs, somebody sitting there.
拥抱，有人坐在那里。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Eye contact.
目光接触。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Holding your hand.
握着你的手。
No doubt, smell is-
毫无疑问，气味是——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
probably related to this.
可能与此有关。
Just the smell of another person-
只是另一个人的气味——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
even if you're not aware of it consciously-
即使你没有意识到——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
signaling at a bodily level there's someone else here.
在身体层面发出信号，这里还有其他人。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There are a lot of people that really struggle to sleep after the loss of someone.
有很多人在失去某人后真的很难入睡。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And just having someone else in the room-
只是房间里还有其他人-
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or a pet in the room-
或房间里的宠物-
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
can make a big difference.
可以产生很大的影响。
So in terms of addiction-
所以就成瘾而言——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
there are incredible zero-cost programs all over the world in the form of 12-step and other recovery programs that allow people to work through their physiology and their psychology through the support of others, elders, as it were-
世界各地有令人难以置信的零成本计划，以 12 步法和其他恢复计划的形式，让人们通过其他人、长辈的支持来改善他们的生理和心理——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or those more experienced-
或者更有经验的人-
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with whatever it is, alcohol, drugs, or a process addiction.
无论是什么，酒精、毒品或过程成瘾。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is there something similar for those in grief?
对于那些悲伤的人来说，有类似的事情吗？
I'm aware that there are bereavement groups-
我知道有一些丧亲团体——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but typically when I think of a bereavement group, I think of what my grandfather went to and met his last girlfriend before he died.
但通常当我想到丧亲团体时，我会想到我的祖父在去世前去了哪里并遇见了他最后一个女朋友。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think he only had one girlfriend after my grandmother died.
我想我祖母去世后他就只有一个女朋友了。
They'd been together since they were 13 years old.
他们从13岁起就在一起了。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thirteen.
十三。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Amazing.
太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So 50-plus years.
就这样50多年了。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But that bereavement group became a real source of support for him.
但那个丧亲团体成为了他真正的支持来源。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And yes, he did find a girlfriend in bereavement group.
是的，他确实在丧亲小组里找到了女朋友。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And family members have mixed feelings about that, but I was happy that he didn't-
家人对此心情复杂，但我很高兴他没有——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
die without company.
无人陪伴而死。
So for people of all ages, are there zero-cost tools-
那么对于各个年龄段的人来说，有没有零成本的工具——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the form of groups to help people grieve different types of grief?
以团体的形式帮助人们哀悼不同类型的悲伤？
Because I think for some people, I think we've all heard that the ultimate stressor-
因为我认为对于某些人来说，我想我们都听说过终极压力源——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is the loss of a child.
是失去一个孩子。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I can only think of one thing that might be equally stressful, if not more stressful, would be not knowing-
我只能想到一件可能同样有压力的事情，如果不是更有压力的话，那就是不知道——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
if your child is alive or dead.
如果您的孩子还活着还是死了。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That, to me, just seems like the ultimate form of agony.
对我来说，这似乎是痛苦的终极形式。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So presumably, a bereavement group for that is very different than a bereavement group for someone who's really truly mourning the separation from a spouse, right?
所以想必，针对这种情况的丧亲团体与针对真正哀悼与配偶分离的人的丧亲团体有很大不同，对吧？
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Two different scales of grief, but-
两种不同程度的悲伤，但是——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's hard to tell someone who's really grieving deeply-
很难告诉一个真正悲伤的人——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
like, "Your grief isn't as bad as someone else's grief."
就像，“你的悲伤并不像别人的悲伤那么严重。”
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So are there groups?
那么有团体吗？
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then I'll also ask the question I just asked, which is why is it that knowing other people suffer too-
然后我也会问我刚才问的问题，这就是为什么知道其他人也在受苦——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
only provides mild support for grieving?
只为悲伤提供温和的支持？
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
There's a fairly recent movement that we might call the public health model of bereavement support.
最近有一项运动，我们可以称之为丧亲支持的公共卫生模式。
And so the idea here is that, and this largely comes out of Europe, Canada, Australia, where they're trying to actually develop Health care around bereavement.
所以这里的想法是，这主要来自欧洲、加拿大、澳大利亚，他们试图围绕丧亲之痛实际开发医疗保健。
Part of this is because we can talk about how we know that the physical cost of the loss of a loved one is so impactful on us, it can lead to dying of a heart attack.
部分原因是我们可以谈论我们如何知道失去亲人所造成的身体损失对我们影响如此之大，甚至可能导致死于心脏病。
Right?
正确的？
So we know that, for example, the day that a loved one dies, you are 21 times more likely to have a heart attack than any other day of your life.
因此，我们知道，例如，在亲人去世的那一天，您患心脏病的可能性是一生中其他任何一天的 21 倍。
21 times.
21次。
And we know that in the first three months after the death of his wife, a man is nearly twice as likely to have a fatal heart attack compared to a man who remains married during that same time.
我们知道，在妻子去世后的头三个月内，男性患致命心脏病的可能性几乎是同一时间内仍保持婚姻状态的男性的两倍。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Even if he has other supports.
哪怕他还有其他的支持。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Isn't that just crazy?
这不是很疯狂吗？
For women, it's about 1.8 times, so still just an astronomical number for medical risk.
对于女性来说，这个数字约为1.8倍，因此对于医疗风险来说仍然只是一个天文数字。
So what we know is this period of transformation is incredibly risky.
所以我们知道，这段转型时期的风险非常大。
Right?
正确的？
So we can have all this physiological change, but if our body isn't resilient enough, where it actually breaks during that time, this is something we need to get ahead of.
因此，我们可以经历所有这些生理变化，但如果我们的身体弹性不够，在那段时间实际上会崩溃，这是我们需要提前解决的问题。
So thinking about this public health model of bereavement, we can think of at the foundation, even just understanding in a grief literacy kind of way, what can I expect?
因此，考虑这种丧亲之痛的公共卫生模式，我们可以从根本上思考，甚至只是以悲伤素养的方式来理解，我能期待什么？
What is happening to me?
我这是怎么了？
Why is this happening to me?
为什么这种事会发生在我身上？
That is a psychoeducation level that is vitally important to people, regardless of how much support they have.
这是一个对人们至关重要的心理教育水平，无论他们有多少支持。
Now, many people will go to bereavement support groups even just to get that.
现在，许多人甚至只是为了得到这个而去参加丧亲支持小组。
Right?
正确的？
Even just to get good evidence-based information.
即使只是为了获得良好的基于证据的信息。
Places that are no longer teaching the five stages of grieving, for example.
例如，一些地方不再教授悲伤的五个阶段。
And beyond that, we know how important support is.
除此之外，我们知道支持的重要性。
Social support, having loved ones around, just as you were describing.
社会支持，有亲人在身边，就像你所描述的那样。
And I think one of the reasons-- Imagine in that first seven days after your spouse dies, if there is someone in your house sitting shiva, they are going to notice if you have a heart attack.
我认为原因之一 - 想象一下，在你的配偶去世后的头 7 天，如果你家里有人坐湿婆，他们会注意到你是否心脏病发作。
Right?
正确的？
So think about the idea that we might outsource our physiological regulation for a while.
因此，考虑一下我们可以将生理调节外包一段时间的想法。
Think of it this way.
这样想吧。
When we bond with someone, when you fall in love with your partner, say, for example, they become your external pacemaker.
例如，当我们与某人建立联系时，当您爱上您的伴侣时，他们就会成为您的外部起搏器。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Right?
对吗？
Think about co-regulation.
考虑共同监管。
If I go home now and I get a hug from my partner, just the way you were describing, I know that my blood pressure will drop a little bit, my heart rate will drop a little bit.
如果我现在回家，得到伴侣的拥抱，就像你描述的那样，我知道我的血压会下降一点，我的心率会下降一点。
Now, suddenly, I have to imagine walking into an empty house where that's not going to happen.
现在，突然间，我不得不想象走进一间空房子，而这不会发生。
My cardiovascular system has to figure out how am I going to walk into my home again and again and again and regulate my heart rate.
我的心血管系统必须弄清楚我如何一次又一次走进家中并调节我的心率。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And your brain is anticipating seeing the person that you lost.
你的大脑正在期待见到你失去的人。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can know-
你可以知道——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but the action systems, the go circuitry, if it were.
但如果有的话，还有动作系统、动作电路。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
All the subconscious processing.
都是潜意识的处理。
I'm doing the same motion of turning the key in the lock that I've always done, and now there's a hole in the room when I enter it.
我正在做与以前一样的转动钥匙的动作，现在当我进入房间时，房间里有一个洞。
Right?
正确的？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And often, it still smells like them.
通常，它仍然闻起来像它们。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think people really underestimate this thing about smell-
我认为人们真的低估了气味这个东西——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because it's operating at an unconscious level all the time.
因为它一直在无意识的水平上运作。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Yes.
是的。
By passing-
通过通过-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like bathing in somebody else's chemicals-
就像在别人的化学物质中洗澡一样——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Absolutely
绝对
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and then they're gone-
然后他们就走了——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and then it starts dissipating-
然后它开始消散——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
That's right
没错
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but it's still there for a while.
但它仍然存在一段时间。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
So I think recognizing your grieving body has to figure out how to regulate again is one reason why support is so important.
所以我认为认识到你悲伤的身体必须弄清楚如何再次调节是支持如此重要的原因之一。
There's a study of, we were talking about earlier before the podcast started, there's a study of primates where, as with other primates, there's a lot of infant mortality.
有一项研究，我们在播客开始之前讨论过，有一项针对灵长类动物的研究，与其他灵长类动物一样，婴儿死亡率很高。
And in this observational study, there are troops that are being observed by scientists, and with the death of an infant primate, the mother will often carry that deceased infant, that baby monkey, for a long time after their death and spend a lot of time looking at the infant.
在这项观察性研究中，有一些科学家正在观察的部队，随着灵长类动物幼年的死亡，母亲往往会在死后很长一段时间里抱着那个死去的婴儿，那只小猴子，并花很多时间看着这个婴儿。
The mother doesn't groom, she doesn't try to nurse.
母亲不梳毛，也不尝试哺乳。
She's not confused that the infant is alive.
她对婴儿还活着并不感到困惑。
But what is interesting is she stops grooming herself during this time.
但有趣的是，她在这段时间不再打扮自己。
Now, that's actually medically risky for a primate because we know that grooming is so important to their health to get rid of parasites and such.
现在，这对于灵长类动物来说实际上是有医学风险的，因为我们知道梳理毛发对于它们的健康非常重要，以消除寄生虫等。
And usually, in these troops, there's a really strict hierarchy.
通常，在这些部队中，有非常严格的等级制度。
Who gets to groom who is the latest Kardashian show kind of thing.
谁给谁打扮就是最新的卡戴珊秀之类的事情。
And during this time, when the mother is trying to understand what has happened to this infant, the rules go out the window.
在这段时间里，当母亲试图了解这个婴儿发生了什么事时，规则就被抛诸脑后了。
Any member of the troop can groom this mother.
队伍中的任何成员都可以培养这位母亲。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Now, at some point, wide individual variation in how long the mother holds this infant, from days to months.
现在，在某些时候，母亲抱婴儿的时间存在很大的个体差异，从几天到几个月不等。
Once she relinquishes the infant, the rules go back into effect.
一旦她放弃婴儿，规则就会重新生效。
So she goes back to the troop, and now she participates in social life, in medical social life, in the way that she did before.
于是她回到了部队，现在她像以前一样参与社会生活，参与医疗社会生活。
I think the analogy here, in addition to every time I think about it, it just rips my heart a little bit, right?
我想这里的比喻，加上每次想起，只是有点撕裂我的心，对吧？
But the idea here is that it is all of our jobs to groom the mourning person, to care for them, to say, "Hey, how long has it been since you saw your doctor for your regular checkup?
但这里的想法是，我们所有的工作就是培养哀悼者，照顾他们，对他们说：“嘿，你有多久没有去看医生进行定期检查了？
How long has it been since you had your mammogram or got your teeth cleaned?" Right?
您有多久没有做过乳房X光检查或洗牙了？”正确的？
Often, we've been caring for a loved one who's dying, and we're neglecting our own medical care.
通常，我们一直在照顾垂死的亲人，却忽视了自己的医疗护理。
Because here's the thing Grief is the natural response.
因为悲伤是自然反应。
Our bodies are resilient.
我们的身体是有弹性的。
Many people are shocked by how much pain, physical pain, how they get a lump in their throat, or they feel like their chest is on fire when they're grieving.
许多人都对疼痛的程度、身体上的疼痛、喉咙里出现肿块，或者在悲伤时感觉胸口着火感到震惊。
But actually, our bodies are remarkably resilient.
但实际上，我们的身体非常有弹性。
We do learn to reregulate without this external pacemaker.
我们确实学会了在没有外部起搏器的情况下重新调节。
But in those instances where the body isn't resilient enough to be able to do that, we need people around us supporting us.
但在身体没有足够的弹性来做到这一点的情况下，我们需要周围的人支持我们。
In a study in my own lab, we thought, well, probably this risk for a broken heart, this risk of dying of a heart attack, isn't 24/7 equally risky.
在我自己实验室的一项研究中，我们认为，可能这种心碎的风险，这种死于心脏病的风险，并不是 24/7 同样的风险。
So we brought people into the lab and had them experience a wave of grief while they were hooked up to ECG and blood pressure and so forth.
因此，我们将人们带入实验室，让他们在连接心电图和血压等的同时体验一阵悲伤。
And what we saw was everybody's blood pressure goes up during a wave of grief.
我们看到的是，在悲伤的浪潮中，每个人的血压都会升高。
That's probably not too surprising.
这可能并不太令人惊讶。
But what we saw was the people who, when they walked in the door, told us they were having the most intense grief, their blood pressure went up the most.
但我们看到的是，当他们走进门时，他们告诉我们他们的悲伤最强烈，他们的血压上升得最快。
And then in a replication study in Germany, we saw that their blood pressure didn't recover.
然后在德国的一项复制研究中，我们发现他们的血压没有恢复。
So you can see that these waves of grief that our body and our mind and our brain have to learn how to cope with and then eventually to adapt to, those require a physical body that can sustain that.
所以你可以看到，我们的身体、思想和大脑必须学会如何应对并最终适应这些悲伤的浪潮，这些需要有一个可以承受的身体。
They require relationships that can support us and sustain that.
他们需要能够支持我们并维持这种关系的关系。
And this is why I think support is so important, even though it doesn't take away the pain of missing your person.
这就是为什么我认为支持如此重要，尽管它并不能消除思念亲人的痛苦。
Because we need every resource we can muster in the midst of this moment.
因为我们需要在这一刻筹集到的一切资源。
Now, it does also mean that as much as we are missing our person, and it feels so isolating to try and explain that there's a hole in the room when no one else can see that hole, it does help at some level to talk to this other person who is seeing a different hole in the room, who's also going through grief, because we recognize grieving is a human experience, and that you're not connected because you both miss the same person, but you are connected because you're both missing.
现在，这也确实意味着，尽管我们很想念自己的人，试图解释房间里有一个洞，而其他人都看不到那个洞，但感觉很孤立，但在某种程度上，与看到房间里另一个洞、也在经历悲伤的另一个人交谈确实有帮助，因为我们认识到悲伤是一种人类经历，你们没有联系，因为你们都想念同一个人，但你们联系在一起，因为你们都想念。
Right?
正确的？
And so I think that bereavement support can be incredibly helpful to connect with others who are going through this same process.
因此，我认为丧亲之痛的支持对于与正在经历同样过程的其他人建立联系非常有帮助。
And frankly, I don't recommend, and some bereavement support groups actually prohibit dating relationships from a grief support group.
坦率地说，我不建议，而且一些丧亲支持小组实际上禁止与悲伤支持小组建立约会关系。
But the reality is the people that we connect with are also people potentially that we develop stronger attachment bonds with.
但现实是，我们所交往的人也有可能与我们建立更牢固的依恋关系。
That's how community works, right?
这就是社区的运作方式，对吗？
And so I think bereavement support can be incredibly important.
因此，我认为丧亲之痛的支持非常重要。
We do know for the one out of 10 who develop disordered grieving, who really are not showing any changes over time, even though time is passing, those people might need very specific evidence-based psychotherapy intervention because we know that those psychology interventions can get us back on a normal or typical grieving trajectory.
我们确实知道，十分之一的人患有失调性悲伤，他们实际上没有随着时间的推移而表现出任何变化，即使时间过去了，这些人可能需要非常具体的基于证据的心理治疗干预，因为我们知道这些心理干预可以让我们回到正常或典型的悲伤轨迹。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I want to talk about the somatic, the bodily aspect of this.
我想谈谈身体方面的问题。
We've been talking about the brain, which, of course, is connected to the body-
我们一直在谈论大脑，当然，它与身体相连——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and vice versa.
反之亦然。
But before I do that, I want to ask you a question about alcohol.
但在此之前，我想问你一个关于酒精的问题。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Did an episode about alcohol a couple of years ago, and I think it got a lot of people who wanted to stop drinking, to stop drinking.
几年前做了一个关于酒精的节目，我认为它让很多人想要戒酒，戒酒。
It got some people who wanted to keep drinking, drinking a little less, and some people hate that episode-
有些人想继续喝酒，少喝一点，有些人讨厌这一集——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and keep drinking.
并继续喝酒。
And my goal with that episode was not to change anyone's behavior, just to give them information.
我那集的目标不是改变任何人的行为，只是给他们提供信息。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I will be the last person to promote drinking-
我将是最后一个提倡饮酒的人——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because we know it's basically not good for us, despite the headlines that it might be.
因为我们知道这基本上对我们不利，尽管它可能是头条新闻。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The mere disruption in sleep and microbiome probably explains, in my opinion, about 50% of the detrimental effect.
在我看来，仅仅睡眠和微生物组的破坏就可能解释了大约 50% 的有害影响。
But with that said, it is very customary in a lot of traditions that close to the death, in the very early days and stages of grieving, to actually promote alcohol use.
但话虽如此，在许多接近死亡的传统中，在早期和悲伤的阶段，实际上提倡饮酒是非常习惯的。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And if I take an open-minded perspective to this, we know that alcohol at a low dose disinhibits us.
如果我对此持开放态度，我们就会知道低剂量的酒精会抑制我们的行为。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's why people start talking more.
这就是为什么人们开始谈论更多。
At a higher dose, it's more of a sedative.
剂量较高时，它的镇静作用更强。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we can all agree, I believe, that chronic alcohol use or continuing to drink to avoid one's feelings is just a bad idea.
我相信，我们都同意，长期饮酒或继续饮酒来逃避自己的感受是一个坏主意。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Anyone that disputes that is probably drinking while they do it.
任何对此提出异议的人都可能在这样做时喝酒。
However, I am struck by the fact that so many traditions encourage the use of alcohol, and I wonder, based on what you told us about the risk of heart attack-
然而，令我震惊的是，如此多的传统鼓励饮酒，我想知道，根据您告诉我们的关于心脏病发作风险的信息——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
whether or not this is some attempt to lower blood pressure in the short term and basically just keep the person from dying.
这是否是短期内降低血压并基本上防止患者死亡的尝试。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is a drink or two, assuming you're of age and you're not an alcoholic, upon hearing the devastating news, is it the worst thing in the world?
假设你已经成年并且不是酒鬼，那么在听到这个毁灭性的消息后，喝一两杯酒是世界上最糟糕的事情吗？
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
I will tell you a story, which is that so when my mother died, she was in our very tiny hometown in Montana.
我会告诉你一个故事，当我母亲去世时，她正在我们位于蒙大拿州的一个很小的家乡。
And in tiny towns, rural places like this, of course, everyone knows what's going on.
当然，在像这样的小城镇、农村地区，每个人都知道发生了什么。
So the morning after my mom died, at about 1:00 in the morning, my best friend and I went downtown to a Mexican restaurant for breakfast And the woman who owned the place came by the table and said, "Hey, I heard your mom was in the hospital.
所以我妈妈去世后的第二天早上，凌晨 1:00 左右，我和我最好的朋友去市中心的一家墨西哥餐厅吃早餐，餐厅老板娘走到桌边说：“嘿，我听说你妈妈住院了。
I'm so sorry." And I said, "Yeah, she died last night." And she said, "Oh, mija, what can I get you?
我很抱歉。”我说：“是的，她昨晚死了。”她说：“哦，米娅，我能为你买点什么？
Anything.
任何东西。
What do you want?" And I said, "Can I have a beer?" And she said: "Of course you can."
你想要什么？”我说：“我可以喝杯啤酒吗？”她说：“当然可以。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
And I had a beer for breakfast.
我早餐喝了一杯啤酒。
I like to think of us as needing a big toolkit of strategies to deal with waves of grief.
我喜欢认为我们需要一个巨大的策略工具包来应对悲伤的浪潮。
And that was the right tool in the toolkit at that moment.
这就是当时工具包中正确的工具。
Now, if I had a beer for breakfast every day for the rest of my life, probably not so good for my liver, right?
现在，如果我余生每天早餐都喝啤酒，可能对我的肝脏不太好，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
And potentially for my job retention.
并有可能保住我的工作。
But in that moment, it was the right tool.
但在那一刻，它是正确的工具。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Do you see what I mean?
你明白我的意思吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
So it was also the right tool that I was sitting with my best friend, right?
所以这也是我和我最好的朋友坐在一起的正确工具，对吗？
And that inhibition allowed me to cry right there in the middle of the restaurant.
这种抑制让我在餐厅中间哭泣。
I think we have always found ways to interact with the body that may not make sense to us at some level, but probably when they are cultural ways, have come about for reasons.
我认为我们总是找到与身体互动的方式，这些方式在某种程度上对我们来说可能没有意义，但当它们是文化方式时，可能是有原因的。
I don't have evidence for the things you were just saying, but the idea that it can bring people together who are feeling a little less inhibited so that they can talk about emotions and difficulties.
我没有证据支持你刚才所说的事情，但我的想法是，它可以将那些感觉不那么压抑的人们聚集在一起，以便他们可以谈论情感和困难。
The fact that it brings people together just to watch each other is vital.
事实上，它将人们聚集在一起只是为了互相观看，这一点至关重要。
The fact that it impacts our cardiovascular system is important.
它影响我们的心血管系统这一事实很重要。
And here's what I would say about this.
这就是我要说的。
So people think that dying of a broken heart is a metaphor.
所以人们认为心碎而死是一个比喻。
We look at when Carrie Fisher died, her mom, Debbie Reynolds, died the next day.
我们看看凯莉·费雪去世时，她的母亲黛比·雷诺兹第二天也去世了。
And we think, "Oh, isn't that a tragic, beautiful story?" This is a piece of evidence that we have known about from huge epidemiological studies, that the increased risk of all-cause mortality is much higher in newly bereaved people.
我们想，“哦，这不是一个悲惨而美丽的故事吗？”这是我们从大量流行病学研究中了解到的证据，即新近失去亲人的人全因死亡的风险要高得多。
And my question is, why do we keep just proving it over and over?
我的问题是，为什么我们要一遍又一遍地证明它？
What are we going to do about it?
我们该怎么办呢？
In my own lab, and then replicated later in a study in Australia, we did a proof of concept study.
在我自己的实验室中，我们进行了概念验证研究，然后在澳大利亚的一项研究中进行了复制。
Now, to be very clear, this was not a randomized clinical trial and not at a level that would be worthy of using it as medical advice.
现在，需要非常明确的是，这不是一项随机临床试验，也没有达到值得将其用作医疗建议的水平。
But we said, when someone dies in the ICU, in the emergency department, in hospice, in a nursing home, the person standing next to them should become our patient.
但我们说，当有人在重症监护室、急诊室、临终关怀中心、疗养院去世时，站在他们旁边的人应该成为我们的病人。
We know that their medical risk has just gone through the roof.
我们知道他们的医疗风险刚刚达到顶峰。
So we gave aspirin, a baby aspirin, to people in the first two weeks after the death of their loved one and looked at whether that was cardioprotective, which of course it was, because we understand how aspirin works.
因此，我们在亲人去世后的头两周内给人们服用阿司匹林，一种婴儿阿司匹林，并研究这是否具有心脏保护作用，这当然是，因为我们了解阿司匹林的作用原理。
Now, the reason we need big studies is to make sure that there isn't some negative side that we would want to bar against, right?
现在，我们需要进行大规模研究的原因是为了确保不存在我们想要阻止的负面影响，对吧？
But my point here is, if we know that bereavement is medically risky, if we know that we need to support the grieving body so that you can even get through those days, and weeks, and months, so that you can start to restore a life again, what are we going to do about it?
但我的观点是，如果我们知道丧亲之痛在医学上是有风险的，如果我们知道我们需要支撑悲伤的身体，这样你才能度过那些日子、几周和几个月，这样你就可以开始重新恢复生活，我们该怎么办呢？
I think of it this way.
我是这样想的。
Grief is not a disease.
悲伤不是一种疾病。
Grief is totally natural.
悲伤是完全自然的。
But pregnancy is not a disease.
但怀孕并不是一种疾病。
Pregnancy is totally natural, but no one would say it's not physiological.
怀孕是完全自然的事情，但没有人会说这不是生理现象。
No one would say there aren't huge hormone shifts and that it is medically risky.
没有人会说这不会造成巨大的激素变化，而且它存在医学风险。
So that for the vast majority of people who are pregnant, they're perfectly healthy.
因此，对于绝大多数怀孕的人来说，他们是完全健康的。
But we have whole systems of care in place to assess whether people are healthy during this period.
但我们拥有完整的护理系统来评估人们在此期间是否健康。
And then if they're not, if we find gestational diabetes or hypertension, we know how to treat that and intervene for that person so that they can get through this transition period.
如果他们没有，如果我们发现妊娠糖尿病或高血压，我们知道如何治疗并干预该人，以便他们能够度过这个过渡期。
What if it was the same with bereavement?
如果丧亲之痛也是如此呢？
Why at our bereavement support groups do we not also take their blood pressure to find out where they're at physically, in addition to teaching them the many coping skills they might use in addition to having a beer, so that they can learn what grief is like and how to elicit support, and ultimately how to adapt and develop a meaningful life that includes grief, but includes all the other wonderful things in life as well.
为什么在我们的丧亲支持小组中，我们除了教他们除了喝啤酒之外可能使用的许多应对技巧之外，还测量他们的血压来了解他们的身体状况，以便他们能够了解悲伤是什么样的以及如何寻求支持，以及最终如何适应和发展有意义的生活，包括悲伤，但也包括生活中所有其他美好的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Amen to all of that.
阿门这一切。
I was not aware of the medical risk of-
我不知道以下情况的医疗风险——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
being in grief or even adjacent-
处于悲伤之中，甚至处于悲伤之中——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to somebody in grief, but it makes perfect sense.
对于悲伤的人来说，但这是完全有道理的。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've heard stories of people attending funerals where the-
我听说过人们参加葬礼的故事——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
brother of-
的兄弟-
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the deceased died-
死者死了——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
at the funeral weekend.
在葬礼周末。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
At the funeral.
在葬礼上。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or even at the funeral, and you just go, "Oh my goodness." It's almost like beyond comprehension.
或者甚至在葬礼上，你只是说：“哦，天哪。”这几乎是无法理解的。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But we now know there's a logical medical basis for this.
但我们现在知道这是有合理的医学基础的。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
That's right.
没错。
Exactly.
确切地。
And here's the thing that's crazy, Andrew.
这就是疯狂的事情，安德鲁。
Every time I do a podcast or I get interviewed by a reporter, everyone has a story like this.
每次我做播客或者接受记者采访时，每个人都会有这样的故事。
And so, honestly, insurance companies before the 1960s figured this into their actuarial tables.
因此，老实说，20 世纪 60 年代之前的保险公司已将其计入精算表中。
They knew that life expectancy in that time was short.
他们知道那个时代的预期寿命很短。
And so if we've known for this long, what stops us from really caring for grieving people?
那么，如果我们已经知道这么久了，是什么阻止我们真正关心悲伤的人呢？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So important.
如此重要。
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。
Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.
去年，在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我成为了 Function 成员。
Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health.
Function 提供 100 多项高级实验室测试，为您提供整个身体健康状况的关键快照。
This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more.
此快照为您提供有关心脏健康、激素健康、免疫功能、营养水平等方面的见解。
They've also recently added tests for toxins, such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics, and tests for PFAS, or forever chemicals.
他们最近还增加了毒素测试，例如有害塑料中的 BPA 暴露，以及 PFAS 或永久化学物质的测试。
Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas.
Function 不仅提供对您的身心健康至关重要的 100 多种生物标记物的测试，而且还分析这些结果并提供相关领域专家的顶级医生的见解。
For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood.
例如，在我第一次使用 Function 进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量升高。
Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification.
功能不仅帮助我发现了这一点，还为我提供了如何最好地降低汞含量的见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼摄入量，我一直在吃大量金枪鱼，同时还努力多吃绿叶蔬菜并补充 NAC、N-乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒。
And I should say, by taking a second Function test, that approach worked.
我应该说，通过进行第二次功能测试，这种方法奏效了。
Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important.
全面的血液检测至关重要。
There are so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test.
有很多与您的心理和身体健康相关的事情只能通过血液检查来检测。
The problem is, blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated.
问题是，血液检测一直非常昂贵且复杂。
In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity, and at the level of cost.
相比之下，Function 的简单性和成本水平给我留下了深刻的印象。
It is very affordable.
这是非常实惠的。
As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.
因此，我决定加入他们的科学顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。
If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Function，可以访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。
Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman Podcast listeners.
Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等候名单，但他们正在为 Huberman 播客听众提供早期访问服务。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.
同样，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。
I'm curious about compartmentalization.
我对分区很好奇。
It's clear to me now that at least in this culture, in the United States, we aren't taught how to grieve unless it's part of our family or part of our religion.
现在我很清楚，至少在美国的这种文化中，我们没有被教导如何悲伤，除非这是我们家庭或宗教的一部分。
We aren't instructed how to grieve.
我们没有被告知如何悲伤。
There seems to be another set of contradictions in the world of psychology, health, self-help.
心理学、健康、自助领域似乎还存在着另一组矛盾。
Doesn't matter if it's the most woo sector of it-
如果它是最吸引人的部分并不重要-
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or the most reductionist medical sector of it, and the conflicting message is this: on the one hand, feel your feelings.
或其中最简化的医学部门，而相互矛盾的信息是：一方面，感受你的感受。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Bottling it up isn't good.
装瓶就不好了
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Raises your blood pressure, increases your risk of heart attack, aneurysm, makes you a miserable person to be around including with yourself, et cetera.
血压升高，心脏病发作、动脉瘤的风险增加，让你成为一个痛苦的人，包括你自己，等等。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But then we also know we have to be functional.
但我们也知道我们必须发挥作用。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We can't dissolve into a puddle of our own tears 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
我们不能每周 7 天、每天 24 小时都沉浸在自己的泪水中。
Even if we're not a caretaker, we just can't.
即使我们不是守护者，我们也无能为力。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I can recall when I was a kid getting really devastating news.
所以我记得当我还是个孩子的时候，就收到了非常毁灭性的消息。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It doesn't matter what the news was.
新闻是什么并不重要。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But just devastating news.
但这只是毁灭性的消息。
For any age-
对于任何年龄——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but I think at that point I was 16.
但我想那时我才16岁。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was like .
就像。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I remember my chest hurt.
我记得我的胸部很痛。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My heart hurt.
我的心很痛。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I remember actively pushing it down.
我记得我积极地把它推下来。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I know how to do that, right?
我知道该怎么做，对吗？
It's a skill.
这是一项技能。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there was a while where I thought that was a terrible thing to do.
有一段时间我认为这是一件可怕的事情。
On the other hand, that's how you get up and go to work the next day.
另一方面，这就是你第二天起床去上班的方式。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's how when you run in a lab, you go to your lab, that's how you deal with life.
这就是当你在实验室跑步时你去实验室的方式，这就是你对待生活的方式。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the key is, of course, to be able to pop that lid and let the emotions out when you need to.
但当然，关键是能够在需要时打开盖子并释放情绪。
So in the context of the idea that emotions are in the head and emotions are in the body-
因此，在情绪在头脑中、情绪在身体中这一观点的背景下——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
something that I think everyone agrees on now.
我认为现在每个人都同意这一点。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What do we know about the way to let emotion out and through?
我们对释放情绪的方法了解多少？
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And what do we know about healthy, adaptive compartmentalization-
我们对健康、适应性的分区了解多少？
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as skills?
作为技能？
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And here I'm hoping that perhaps people can glean some tools, like take an hour a day and let it wail.
在这里，我希望也许人们可以收集一些工具，比如每天花一个小时，让它哭泣。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Take two hours a day and handle your stuff.
每天花两个小时处理你的事情。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I think it is helpful to remember that emotions are actually the output.
我认为记住情绪实际上是输出是有帮助的。
They're the product.
他们就是产品。
It isn't so much that we have to figure out how to deal with emotions, although I will come back and say that differently in a moment.
并不是说我们必须弄清楚如何处理情绪，尽管我稍后会回来说不同的话。
We have to figure out how to handle what physical and mental state resulted in those emotions.
我们必须弄清楚如何处理导致这些情绪的身体和精神状态。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
So what I mean by that is, if you are in a moment where everything in your body is in protest, you are amped up, and you can't sit still, then working with your body, right?
所以我的意思是，如果你正处于身体里的一切都在抗议的时刻，你会兴奋起来，你不能安静地坐着，然后用你的身体工作，对吗？
Maybe you are the person who needs to go for a run every day, where that hasn't really been who you were before, right?
也许你是那个每天都需要跑步的人，但那已经不是以前的你了，对吧？
On the other hand, maybe you're the person who needs to develop a yoga practice to figure out how to breathe through that amped-up feeling and soothe yourself, physically soothe yourself so that you can bring your heart rate down, right?
另一方面，也许你是那个需要练习瑜伽的人，以弄清楚如何通过那种兴奋的感觉来呼吸并舒缓自己，身体上的舒缓，这样你就可以降低心率，对吗？
So those are two entirely different behaviors, but I can tell you, at the end of either of them, your body's going to be in a different state, and I bet your emotions are in a different state, too, right?
所以这是两种完全不同的行为，但我可以告诉你，在其中任何一种行为结束时，你的身体都会处于不同的状态，我敢打赌你的情绪也会处于不同的状态，对吗？
So there's one way to think about it, which is coming at how do we handle the emotions, but there's another way to come at it, which is how do I handle all of the demands and resources I have?
因此，有一种思考方式，即我们如何处理情绪，但还有另一种方式来思考，即我如何处理我拥有的所有需求和资源？
When demands and resources get out of balance, that's stress.
当需求和资源失去平衡时，就会产生压力。
So how do I increase the resources in my life?
那么我该如何增加生活中的资源呢？
How do I reduce the demands in my life?
如何减少生活中的要求？
Because I am suddenly in a really difficult situation.
因为我突然陷入了一个非常困难的境地。
So that's one way to think about it.
这是思考这个问题的一种方式。
We did an intervention study in my lab with widows and widowers where one arm received mindfulness training, another arm received progressive muscle relaxation, which is sort of like- Learning a really fancy body scan.
我们在我的实验室里对寡妇和鳏夫进行了一项干预研究，其中一只手臂接受正念训练，另一只手臂接受渐进式肌肉放松，这有点像——学习一次非常奇特的身体扫描。
You contract and relax different muscle groups in your body, and you become aware of what that feels like to really understand what relaxation feels like.
您收缩和放松体内不同的肌肉群，并且您会意识到那种感觉，从而真正理解放松的感觉。
And then there was a wait list control group.
然后还有一个等候名单对照组。
And we did it because the progressive muscle relaxation was the control group.
我们这样做是因为渐进式肌肉放松是对照组。
We thought mindfulness training would be very helpful.
我们认为正念训练会非常有帮助。
Turns out mindfulness training was helpful, but progressive muscle relaxation was even more helpful for people's grief.
事实证明，正念训练很有帮助，但渐进式肌肉放松对于缓解人们的悲伤更有帮助。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what does this practice look like?
那么这种做法是什么样的呢？
So you're tensing your fists, then relaxing, then forearms.
所以你要紧握拳头，然后放松，然后放松前臂。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So working through head to toe.
所以从头到脚都要努力。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Contracting for about how long?
签约时间大概多长？
I'm just trying to get the rough contour of it.
我只是想得到它的粗略轮廓。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It's a brief contraction.
这是短暂的宫缩。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
You can go online.
你可以上网。
There's really easy instructions.
有非常简单的说明。
It's often done with a sort of guided audio to help you figure out, but the important part is also feeling what's the difference between my clenched fist and my relaxed fist.
通常会通过某种引导音频来帮助您弄清楚，但重要的部分还在于感受我握紧的拳头和放松的拳头之间有什么区别。
Oh, gosh, I didn't even realize I had so much muscle tension, right?
哦，天哪，我什至没有意识到我的肌肉如此紧张，对吧？
So what's fascinating is people told us, "In any situation, I'm in the grocery store, I'm in a work meeting, I'm trying to fall asleep, I can use this tool now to help my body to get into a different state, and that helps my grief." Now, mindfulness training was effective, but not as effective, as I said.
所以有趣的是人们告诉我们，“在任何情况下，我在杂货店，我在开工作会议，我想入睡，我现在可以使用这个工具来帮助我的身体进入不同的状态，这有助于缓解我的悲伤。”现在，正念训练是有效的，但没有我说的那么有效。
And I think some of this is that grieving is a form of learning.
我认为悲伤是一种学习形式。
I'm not kidding about that.
我不是在开玩笑。
Your brain is busy while you are grieving, and it might not be the right time to take up a new practice that requires a lot of concentration.
当你悲伤时，你的大脑会很忙，现在可能不是开始需要高度集中注意力的新练习的合适时机。
If you do mindfulness, it can be very helpful.
如果你进行正念，它会非常有帮助。
Anyway, the upshot of all that is, on the one hand, it's not that we have to deal with emotions because they are an output.
不管怎样，所有这一切的结果是，一方面，我们不必处理情绪，因为它们是一种输出。
We have to deal with our demands and our resources and developing a whole toolkit of ways to think about adapting in our life now.
我们必须处理我们的需求和资源，并开发一整套方法来思考适应我们现在的生活。
On the other hand, even specifically for waves of grief, having a toolkit of what to do with those emotions, I think you described it beautifully, Andrew, that we do have the capacity for suppression.
另一方面，即使是专门针对悲伤的浪潮，拥有一个如何处理这些情绪的工具包，我认为你描述得很好，安德鲁，我们确实有抑制的能力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
And if you are about to walk into a pitch meeting, suppression is probably the way to go in that moment where suddenly your deceased child has popped into your head and thinking, "I am not going to think about this right now.
如果你即将参加一场推介会议，当你已故的孩子突然出现在你的脑海中并思考“我现在不会考虑这个问题”的那一刻，压抑可能是你应该采取的方式。
I am completely going to pretend this has not happened, and I'm going to do this pitch." Right?
我完全会假装这件事没有发生，我会做这个宣传。”正确的？
But if it's your only strategy, then you don't have the learning process going on, right?
但如果这是你唯一的策略，那么你就没有进行学习过程，对吧？
That at another moment, you might be looking through a photo album and just be overcome with tears, but over time realize, "I can't stay in that puddle either.
在另一个时刻，你可能会翻阅一本相册，泪流满面，但随着时间的推移，你会意识到，“我也不能留在那个水坑里。
When I'm doing this, I need to," if it was me, "I need to text my sister and tell her, 'I'm looking at photos of Mom, and this is what I'm thinking about.' And she'll text me some funny story about Mom or even just say, 'Oh, man, I feel you.' And if my sister isn't available, then I'll text my best friend." Right?
当我这样做时，我需要，”如果是我，“我需要给我姐姐发短信，告诉她，‘我正在看妈妈的照片，这就是我正在想的。’她会给我发一些关于妈妈的有趣故事，甚至只是说，“哦，伙计，我感觉到你了。”如果我姐姐没空，我就会给我最好的朋友发短信。”正确的？
Because in that moment, it is important to have that puddle.
因为在那一刻，拥有那个水坑很重要。
It's also important to know how to get out of the puddle again.
知道如何再次摆脱水坑也很重要。
And so this is really a process of learning, how do I cope with these waves of grief?
所以这确实是一个学习的过程，我该如何应对这些悲伤的浪潮？
It's like being a basketball player, one possession after another, after another.
这就像一名篮球运动员，一次又一次的控球。
How am I going to get through this possession?
我该如何度过这一切？
Each possession looks different.
每个财产看起来都不同。
How am I going to get through this possession with this constellation?
我该如何度过这个星座的占有呢？
What's the right skill to use right now?
现在使用什么技能是正确的？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think what you just said is so vitally important because I know for a number of years, the model was one in which grief progresses through some very standard stages of disbelief, anger, acceptance.
我认为你刚才所说的非常重要，因为我知道多年来，这个模型是悲伤通过一些非常标准的怀疑、愤怒、接受阶段发展的模型。
And no disrespect to, was it-
并没有不尊重的意思，是吗——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Elisabeth Kubler-Ross.
伊丽莎白·库伯勒-罗斯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Kubler-Ross.
库伯勒-罗斯。
Is there a theme of hyphenated names in her field too?
她的领域也有连字符名称的主题吗？
Yeah, sorry.
是的，抱歉。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
No, that's funny.
不，这很有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Incredibly important work because it cracked open the awareness of grief-
非常重要的工作，因为它开启了人们对悲伤的认识——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as a process, both psychological and to some extent biological.
作为一个过程，既是心理过程，又是某种程度上的生物学过程。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So we want to pay respect to the people that opened up these fields, and yet, as an outsider to the field, I can safely say, because my grants and papers don't rely on it, that I think work such as yours and your colleagues have really expanded on that model to really show us that in many ways it was important but not completely true, in the sense that it's not disbelief, then anger, then acceptance.
因此，我们要向那些开拓这些领域的人表示敬意，然而，作为该领域的局外人，我可以有把握地说，因为我的资助和论文不依赖于它，我认为像你和你的同事这样的工作确实扩展了这个模型，真正向我们表明，在很多方面它很重要，但并不完全正确，从某种意义上说，它不是怀疑，然后是愤怒，然后是接受。
It might be all three at once, and then they get shuffled in a different order.
可能同时是这三个，然后它们会以不同的顺序进行洗牌。
And then there's a bunch of other things, too.
还有很多其他的事情。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think it's important for people to hear because that disbelief, anger, acceptance trajectory got so much press-
我认为人们听到这一点很重要，因为这种怀疑、愤怒、接受的轨迹受到了如此多的媒体关注——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that we were kind of taught it in high school and elementary school, and it needs some updating.
我们在高中和小学就教授过它，它需要一些更新。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just like the notion that dopamine is pleasure needs some updating.
就像多巴胺是快乐的观念需要一些更新一样。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
So she published "On Death and Dying" in 1969.
于是她于1969年出版了《论死亡与垂死》。
And you're right, it was groundbreaking, the idea that grief is more than sadness.
你是对的，这是开创性的，悲伤不仅仅是悲伤。
And she did what all good scientists do initially.
她做了所有优秀科学家最初所做的事情。
It was descriptive.
这是描述性的。
She did clinical interviews, and she described, but it became a prescription, didn't it?
她进行了临床访谈，并进行了描述，但这变成了处方，不是吗？
Right?
正确的？
Those stages.
那些阶段。
And we know now, think how far science has come, right?
我们现在知道了，想想科学已经走了多远，对吧？
We know now with longitudinal studies, where we're looking at the same person over and over again, that we do see trajectories.
我们现在知道，通过纵向研究，我们一遍又一遍地观察同一个人，我们确实看到了轨迹。
So we see that acceptance increases over time.
所以我们看到接受度随着时间的推移而增加。
We see that yearning decreases over time, but that it's not linear, and that it's not, just as you say, it's not one stage, and then you're done with that.
我们看到渴望随着时间的推移而减少，但它不是线性的，而且它不是，正如你所说，它不是一个阶段，然后你就完成了。
I've had people say to me, "Well, it's been 20 years, but I haven't felt anger yet, so I don't think I'm done grieving." And my heart goes out to them.
有人对我说：“好吧，已经过去 20 年了，但我还没有感到愤怒，所以我认为我的悲伤还没有结束。”我的心与他们同在。
It's not a prescription.
这不是处方。
And modern grief research tells us so much more, not just about what happens, but why and how.
现代悲伤研究告诉我们更多，不仅仅是发生了什么，还有发生的原因和方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sometimes I wonder if, despite the incredibly devastating experience that grief can be, whether or not people don't allow themselves to feel okay.
有时我想知道，尽管悲伤可能带来令人难以置信的毁灭性经历，但人们是否不允许自己感觉良好。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Earlier when you were talking about this picture of this monkey holding-
早些时候，当你谈论这张猴子抱着的照片时——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
its dead infant.
它死去的婴儿。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I confess I had a reaction.
我承认我有反应。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think that it is a universal, one would hope, human and animal reaction, the wail-
我认为这是人类和动物的一种普遍反应，哀号——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of a mother that's lost her child.
一位失去孩子的母亲。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just an animal, that wail.
只是一只动物，那哀号。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Whether or not it's a human animal-
不管是不是人类动物——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or a monkey, or a dog.
或一只猴子，或一只狗。
It's got to be some, forgive me for playing neuroanatomist here, but teach neuroanatomy, it's got to be some deep, literally deep nerve path in the body-
一定是一些，请原谅我在这里扮演神经解剖学家，但是教授神经解剖学，它必须是身体中一些深层的、真正深层的神经路径——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because you just feel it everywhere.
因为你到处都能感觉到它。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not like over here or over there.
这不像这里或那里。
You don't hear it in your ears.
你耳朵里听不到它。
You feel it down to your core.
你会从内心深处感受到它。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And anything that deep is as primitive and-
任何深奥的东西都是原始的并且——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
ancient and important as hunger, thirst, reproduction-
像饥饿、口渴、繁殖一样古老而重要——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Foundational
基础
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or anger.
或愤怒。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I think it's so important that you placed grief right up there on the shelf next to those primary drives.
所以我认为将悲伤放在那些主要驱动器旁边的架子上非常重要。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And mentioned homeostasis.
并提到了体内平衡。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The desire to stay in some ground where the seesaw isn't tilted-
渴望留在跷跷板不倾斜的地方——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
toward just complete collapse.
走向彻底崩溃。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And yet there are times when people are grieving, and they find themselves laughing at something they hear-
然而，有时候，当人们悲伤时，他们发现自己会因为听到的事情而发笑——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
maybe on a podcast.
也许在播客上。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or they find themselves attracted to a potentially new partner-
或者他们发现自己被一个潜在的新合作伙伴所吸引——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Absolutely
绝对
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
despite the fact that they adored their spouse.
尽管他们很爱自己的配偶。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And what's the permission piece?
许可部分是什么？
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Big time.
很开心。
Part of this is a cultural piece.
其中一部分是文化作品。
Part of this is that we joke about there's apparently a big book of rules about grief, that no one can get ahold of, but people have very strong feelings on.
部分原因是我们开玩笑说显然有一本关于悲伤的规则书，没有人能掌握，但人们对此有非常强烈的感情。
And people will talk about how, "I got hammered with the big book of grief rules today.
人们会谈论如何，“今天我被一本关于悲伤规则的大书狠狠地打击了。
Somebody told me I shouldn't be, or I should be, fill in the blank." Believe me, it's hard enough as it is without expectations around you of whether you're doing it right.
有人告诉我我不应该，或者我应该，填补空白。”相信我，这已经够难的了，因为你周围没有人对你是否做对了抱有期望。
At one level then, there's the social expectations.
在一个层面上，存在着社会期望。
A woman contacted me about 10 days after her husband died, and she said, "I just am not sad, and I'm worried something's deeply wrong with me." She was an older woman.
一位女士在她丈夫去世大约 10 天后联系我，她说：“我只是不伤心，我担心自己出了什么问题。”她是一位年长的妇女。
We did a neuropsych evaluation, and I did a clinical interview and so forth, and I said, "I think the reality is you're just okay." And she said, "Okay, that's what I thought, but I can't tell any of my friends that I'm not sad because I'd be a pariah."
我们做了神经心理学评估，我做了临床访谈等等，我说，“我认为现实是你还好。”她说：“好吧，我就是这么想的，但我不能告诉我的任何朋友我不难过，因为我会成为一个贱民。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People will think she's a sociopath.
人们会认为她是一个反社会者。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
People will think she's a sociopath.
人们会认为她是一个反社会者。
Instead, they had a wonderful relationship together.
相反，他们的关系非常好。
She knew that this was coming.
她知道这一切即将到来。
She had a big, full life, and it was okay for her in that moment.
她的生活很丰富，很充实，那一刻对她来说没什么问题。
So I think on the one hand, there's the social component about permission.
所以我认为一方面，存在关于许可的社会成分。
It's going to look different for each person.
每个人看起来都会有所不同。
And most importantly, it's going to look different than we think it will be.
最重要的是，它看起来会与我们想象的不同。
We try to anticipate what grief is going to feel like.
我们尝试预测悲伤的感觉。
But because so much of attachment is below the level of consciousness, because our physiology is below the level of consciousness, it's not like we can know how we're going to react.
但因为如此多的依恋都低于意识水平，因为我们的生理机能低于意识水平，所以我们并不知道我们将如何反应。
So the natural response is just the reacting, and then grieving is, over time, the way we react starts to feel more familiar.
所以自然反应只是反应，然后悲伤就是，随着时间的推移，我们的反应方式开始变得更加熟悉。
We start to develop better coping tools for the natural way we react.
我们开始为我们的自然反应方式开发更好的应对工具。
It's not that the grief goes away.
这并不是说悲伤就消失了。
It's that we come to understand it.
正是我们逐渐理解了它。
We understand how to work with it.
我们了解如何使用它。
But the other piece is about permission, I think.
但我认为另一部分是关于许可的。
Remember how I said you still have an ongoing internal relationship?
还记得我说过你们仍然保持着持续的内部关系吗？
I think people feel guilt about having joy, doing things that are fun, falling in love, connecting with people, going on a vacation.
我认为人们会因为享受快乐、做有趣的事情、坠入爱河、与人交往、去度假而感到内疚。
Because at some level, there is a piece of them that believes, "My loved one is out there, is everlasting, and I'm choosing to do this instead of going to seek them out.
因为在某种程度上，他们中的一部分人相信，“我所爱的人就在那里，是永恒的，我选择这样做，而不是去寻找他们。
I'm choosing to do this when they can't." And you can understand how that comes about.
当他们做不到时，我会选择这样做。”你可以理解这是如何发生的。
You can understand this internal misgiving, but it's because of that everlasting encoding of this relationship, but it's not true.
你可以理解这种内心的疑虑，但这是因为这种关系的永恒编码，但事实并非如此。
Your brain can believe it, and it can be not true.
你的大脑可以相信它，但它也可能不是真的。
And so working on that internal relationship to say, "Hey, I'm going to do these things because you can't.
因此，努力建立这种内部关系，说：“嘿，我要做这些事情，因为你做不到。
I'm going to do them through a body and eyes that were shaped by you so that you can come along with." Or, every interpretation is going to work differently for each person.
我将通过你塑造的身体和眼睛来完成它们，以便你可以跟随。”或者，每种解释对每个人来说都会有不同的作用。
Or you can say, "You valued this so much." My mother would be so incredibly proud that I've written books, that I am a professor.
或者你可以说，“你非常看重这个。”我的母亲会为我写书、我成为一名教授而感到无比自豪。
Something that she couldn't do.
有件事她做不到。
And I often think to myself, "This one's for you, Mama." And so that way of changing the internal relationship, remembering that your internal relationship can evolve with them And similarly, if they were a less than loved one, which happens as well, it's okay to say, "You know what?
我常常对自己说：“妈妈，这是给你的。”因此，改变内部关系的方式，记住你的内部关系可以与他们一起发展同样，如果他们不是一个不那么爱的人，这种情况也会发生，你可以说，“你知道吗？
This chapter of my life is over.
我人生的这一章结束了。
That was a tough chapter, and I'm going to wrap that up and put that in a box, and it's done now." And maybe it will come back at another time, and I'll deal with that relationship more later.
这是一个艰难的章节，我要把它包起来，放进一个盒子里，现在就完成了。”也许它会在另一个时间回来，我稍后会更多地处理这种关系。
But for right now, it's okay to put that aside.
但现在，可以把它放在一边。
So, I think permission is such a great word.
所以，我认为许可是一个很棒的词。
Think to yourself, who is judging me for going on vacation?
想想看，谁在评判我去度假？
Who is judging me for falling in love?
谁在评判我是否坠入爱河？
Is it me?
是我吗？
Is it in the internal relationship?
是内部关系吗？
Is it my neighbor, my pastor?
是我的邻居、我的牧师吗？
Figure out who's judging you, and then how do you get permission?
弄清楚谁在评判你，然后你如何获得许可？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sounds like giving oneself permission to move through that protest stage-
听起来像是允许自己度过那个抗议阶段——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
at whatever rate happens to be.
无论发生什么速度。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And to move through that despair step.
并走出那绝望的一步。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And just to stay with the word, because I don't know a better one-
只是为了坚持这个词，因为我不知道更好的词-
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to transmute that feeling of despair.
来改变那种绝望的感觉。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like, you can't get them back.
就像，你无法让他们回来。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're gone.
他们走了。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
They are gone.
他们走了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Over, curtains.
完了，窗帘。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As a friend of mine who has suffered more loss than any human being ever should, he just goes, "Curtains."
作为我的一个朋友，他所遭受的损失比任何人都应该承受的还要多，他只是说：“窗帘。”
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But he learned to transmute that into new things.
但他学会了将其转化为新事物。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I will tell you, Andrew, I teach a psychology of death and loss class at the University of Arizona, and my students will say to me, "You are way too happy to be teaching this class." And I say to them, "That's not a mistake.
我会告诉你，安德鲁，我在亚利桑那大学教授死亡和失落心理学课程，我的学生会对我说，“你太高兴了，无法教授这门课。”我对他们说：“这不是一个错误。
That's not incidental." It is because every single day, I'm thinking about death and dying.
这并非偶然。”这是因为我每天都在思考死亡和垂死。
I'm thinking about grief and loss.
我正在思考悲伤和失落。
And so when they come to me and they got a B+ instead of an A-, I'm sort of like, "You know, big picture, right?
所以当他们来找我并得到 B+ 而不是 A- 时，我有点像，“你知道，大局，对吧？
Not the end of the world." And there's a way in which I can say grieving is a form of learning, but I don't know what you're going to learn from this loss experience.
不是世界末日。”在某种程度上，我可以说悲伤是一种学习形式，但我不知道你会从这次失去的经历中学到什么。
But what I hope is that you learn good lessons.
但我希望你能学到好的教训。
Lessons like, "Wow, I am tougher than I thought I was," or, "Wow, when I really need someone, people step up," or, "Wow, that person utterly shaped my view of the world, and I am so grateful." Other people learn, "Wow, the world is an unsafe place," or, "I can't tell anyone how I really feel." These are very different lessons that some people learn, and my hope is that no one grieves alone, because the risk of them thinking, "It's my fault," is so bad for society, that people walk around believing that, that we need to support others so that we come out learning better lessons about what it means that death is a part of life.
诸如此类的教训，“哇，我比我想象的更坚强”，或者，“哇，当我真正需要某人时，人们会挺身而出”，或者，“哇，那个人完全塑造了我的世界观，我非常感激。”其他人了解到，“哇，世界是一个不安全的地方”，或者“我不能告诉任何人我的真实感受。”这些是一些人学到的非常不同的教训，我希望没有人会独自悲伤，因为他们认为“这是我的错”的风险对社会非常不利，以至于人们相信我们需要支持他人，这样我们才能更好地学到死亡是生命的一部分意味着什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm always amazed at how much life can hurt.
我总是惊讶于生活会带来多少伤害。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Oof.
噢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm always amazed at how resilient-
我总是惊讶于它的韧性——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
humans are.
人类是。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
They really are.
他们确实是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's like the two things are both true.
就好像这两件事都是真的一样。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Both are true.
两者都是真的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And often in the same people.
而且经常发生在同一个人身上。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to talk about a very difficult aspect of-
我想谈谈一个非常困难的方面——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
grieving and death.
悲伤和死亡。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is suicide.
这是自杀。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think sadly, nowadays, almost everyone is aware of somebody that died by suicide.
我悲哀地认为，现在几乎每个人都知道有人自杀身亡。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I certainly have known people that have died by suicide, and we hear about it all too often in the public sphere.
我当然认识一些自杀身亡的人，我们在公共领域也经常听到这样的事情。
It seems that a human taking their own life-
似乎一个人正在结束自己的生命——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
defies all logic.
违背一切逻辑。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And yet, having sat with the spouse of a really close friend of mine and mentor who took his own life-
然而，与我一位非常亲密的朋友和导师的配偶坐在一起，他结束了自己的生命——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
she came to this place where I think a lot of people close to people who die by suicide come to, where she said to me, literally, "He seemed to really need that."
她来到了这个地方，我认为很多与自杀身亡的人关系密切的人都会来到这里，她对我说，字面意思是，“他似乎真的需要这个。”
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which brings us to this place where maybe they were hurting that badly.
这让我们想到了他们可能受到了严重伤害的地方。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then you kind of reason some sense of relief, et cetera.
然后你就会有一些如释重负的感觉，等等。
But I had the both fortune and misfortune of seeing this movie, "The Bridge."
但我有幸也有不幸地看了这部电影《大桥》。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a movie that I can't really recommend.
这是一部我实在无法推荐的电影。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's so intense.
太激烈了。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But where they fixed cameras on the Golden Gate Bridge-
但他们在金门大桥上安装了摄像头——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Oh, yeah
哦，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
filmed people jumping, and talked to the people that knew those people, and in one case, they were able to talk to the young man who jumped and survived.
拍摄人们跳跃的过程，并与认识这些人的人交谈，在一个案例中，他们能够与跳下并幸存下来的年轻人交谈。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As I recall, he was diagnosed bipolar.
我记得，他被诊断为躁郁症。
Suicide rate in people with bipolar, and so on, and he describes moments after he jumped, his first thought was he didn't want to die.
躁郁症患者的自杀率等等，他描述说，在他跳楼后的那一刻，他的第一个想法是他不想死。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I think, if for no other reason-
所以我想，如果没有其他原因的话——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that message and that movie-
那条信息和那部电影-
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
plays a very important role because it argues against what I just talked about.
起着非常重要的作用，因为它与我刚才所说的相矛盾。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And if some-- Forgive me, but let's just be direct here.
如果有人——请原谅我，但我们就直接说吧。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's not hang out at the margins.
我们不要徘徊在边缘。
Let's just take this face on.
我们就拿这张脸来说吧。
If somebody kills themselves by gunshot-
如果有人开枪自杀——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
there isn't usually a second opportunity to think, "Oops, I really don't want this."
通常没有第二次机会思考：“哎呀，我真的不想要这个。”
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what do we know about the research on suicide, if we could just start there?
那么，如果我们可以从自杀研究开始，我们对自杀研究了解多少呢？
Do we know anything from studies of people who tried to commit suicide-
我们从对试图自杀的人的研究中知道什么吗？
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and were unsuccessful?
并没有成功？
Do we know whether or not that's a typical experience?
我们知道这是否是一种典型的经历吗？
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And what do we know about grieving suicide that's different than grieving other forms of death?
对于悲伤自杀与悲伤其他形式的死亡有何不同，我们知道什么？
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I can say upfront that I am not an expert in suicide, and there is so much that is known scientifically about the mental health surrounding suicide and suicide attempts and so forth.
我可以坦白地说，我不是自杀方面的专家，关于自杀和自杀企图等的心理健康问题，有很多科学知识。
But I think about it this way.
但我是这样想的。
I think we can separate out a conversation that I'm not expert in that says, suicide is a permanent solution to a probably temporary problem, and there are lots of reasons, mental health care and so forth, that suicide may happen, and it is a tragedy that this permanent solution seems the only one, given what might be a temporary situation.
我认为我们可以分开一个我不擅长的对话，它说，自杀是对可能暂时的问题的永久解决方案，有很多原因，心理健康保健等等，自杀可能会发生，而悲剧的是，考虑到可能是暂时的情况，这种永久解决方案似乎是唯一的解决方案。
But I can put all of that a little bit on a shelf, honestly, and still tackle something that I think you're getting at, which is, what about the person who's grieving after a suicide?
但老实说，我可以把所有这些都放在架子上，但仍然可以解决我认为你正在讨论的问题，即自杀后悲伤的人怎么办？
And I think about that in this way, because we do know that grief after a sudden death, grief after a violent death, grief after an unexpected death, and all of those often describe a suicide, is more challenging.
我以这种方式思考这一点，因为我们确实知道突然死亡后的悲伤、暴力死亡后的悲伤、意外死亡后的悲伤，以及所有这些通常描述自杀的悲伤，更具挑战性。
It is more difficult to adapt.
更难适应。
It is more difficult to restore a meaningful life.
恢复有意义的生活更加困难。
A friend of mine who used to come to the class that I teach, whose son died by suicide, helped me really see the insight into the grieving process there, though.
我的一个朋友曾经来我教的班级，他的儿子自杀身亡，但他帮助我真正了解了那里的悲伤过程。
And it's something that actually probably applies even more broadly but is very common in the thought patterns of people who are grieving someone who died by suicide.
这实际上可能适用得更广泛，但在那些为自杀身亡者哀悼的人的思维模式中很常见。
And that is what he called the would've, could've, should've thoughts.
这就是他所说的本来、可能、应该的想法。
So this is, "If only I would've picked up the phone.
所以这就是，“如果我当时拿起电话就好了。
If only I could've gotten them to the hospital sooner.
如果我能早点送他们去医院就好了。
The doctor should've known to check for..." And the thing is that the brain, because it is a wonder, the brain can come up with an infinite number of stories, an infinite number of reasons why this loss is your fault.
医生应该知道要检查……”问题是大脑，因为这是一个奇迹，大脑可以想出无数的故事，无数的理由来解释为什么这种损失是你的错。
And the reality is, there is no way through those questions, because there is an infinite number of them.
现实是，这些问题是无法解决的，因为它们的数量是无限的。
And what he taught me, and I think the research bears this out, is that the solution is not to find answers to an infinite number of questions.
他教给我的是，解决方案不是找到无数问题的答案，我认为研究也证实了这一点。
If you think about it, each of those stories, if only I would've picked up the phone, each of those stories ends in, "And then my loved one would've lived." But the reality that we're dealing with right now, today, here, in this room, is that they didn't live.
如果你仔细想想，每一个故事，只要我拿起电话，每一个故事的结尾都是：“然后我所爱的人就会活下去。”但我们现在、今天、在这里、在这个房间里面对的现实是，他们并不存在。
And so none of those things matter anymore, because now the question is, how do I live given that it is true that they are gone?
所以这些事情都不再重要了，因为现在的问题是，既然它们确实消失了，我该如何生活？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's almost like those questions are another form of this protest.
这些问题几乎就像是这次抗议的另一种形式。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes, that's exactly it.
是的，就是这样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't want to hold the model that we talked about earlier up on a pedestal that implies it doesn't have exceptions and-
我不想把我们之前讨论过的模型放在一个基座上，这意味着它没有例外，而且-
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
nuance, et cetera.
细微差别等等。
But this idea of a divergent circuit where you can protest to the end of time-
但是这个发散回路的想法你可以抗议到时间的尽头——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
like, "No, I could've done this."
就像，“不，我可以做到这一点。”
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"No, I could've done that."
“不，我本来可以做到的。”
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You even see this in a much lesser example, if I may, in breakups.
如果可以的话，你甚至可以在一个小得多的分手例子中看到这一点。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
If only.
如果只是的话。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I was once told that the two most dangerous words in the English language are if only.
有人告诉我，英语中最危险的两个词是“if only”。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because everything that follows is a false narrative.
因为接下来的一切都是虚假的叙述。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
It's a false narrative.
这是一个错误的叙述。
But the question is, why are we doing it, right?
但问题是，我们为什么要这样做，对吧？
So if grieving is a form of learning and all of this rumination, as we would call it, these perseverative thoughts, what if, if only, why are we doing it then?
因此，如果悲伤是一种学习形式，而所有这些沉思，正如我们所说的，这些持久的想法，如果，如果只是，我们为什么要这样做呢？
And I think there's a couple of possibilities.
我认为有几种可能性。
One is that it is unbearable to think that bad things happen for no reason, and that protest can be around, it is as painful as guilt is, it can make more sense to me than just abject, random, terrible events happening in the world.
一是认为坏事无缘无故地发生是令人难以忍受的，而抗议可能存在，它和内疚一样痛苦，对我来说，它比世界上发生的悲惨、随机、可怕的事件更有意义。
That at least there's a sense of control if I failed to do something.
如果我失败了，至少会有一种控制感。
So the question is, well, and the second possibility I sometimes think about, well, what would you be doing if you weren't ruminating right now?
所以问题是，我有时会想到第二种可能性，如果你现在不沉思，你会做什么？
And the problem is that when we are going round and round and round in our head about these things that cannot be true, we're not in the present moment, right?
问题是，当我们脑子里不断地思考这些不真实的事情时，我们就不在当下，对吧？
We're in some other internal world.
我们处于另一个内部世界。
And that means that if your grandchild is telling you this hilarious story, you're not really paying attention because you're in this other world in your head.
这意味着，如果你的孙子给你讲这个搞笑的故事，你并没有真正集中注意力，因为你的脑海里正处于另一个世界。
And so you don't get to have all the joy in life that comes from being in that moment with your grandchild.
因此，您无法享受与孙子在一起的那一刻所带来的所有生活乐趣。
And so we miss out by being stuck in this other guilt-ridden, infinite, possible terrible world.
因此，我们因陷入另一个充满负罪感的、无限的、可能的可怕世界而错过了机会。
The question is then, we have to come to understand these are thoughts.
那么问题是，我们必须了解这些想法。
How do I deal with the thoughts?
我该如何处理这些想法？
Not what is the answer to the thoughts, but how do I deal with the fact that I am having these repetitive thoughts?
不是这些想法的答案是什么，而是我如何处理我有这些重复的想法这一事实？
And we can learn a lot of skills around how to cope with our thoughts.
我们可以学习很多关于如何应对我们的想法的技能。
For me, one of the things I had to learn was I need to shift my environment.
对我来说，我必须学习的一件事是我需要改变我的环境。
If I realize, "Oh, I'm doing the rumination thing again," literally, I just need to get up and walk outside, right?
如果我意识到，“哦，我又在沉思了”，从字面上看，我只需要站起来走到外面，对吧？
Just that shift alone can help to change my thought patterns.
仅仅这种转变就可以帮助改变我的思维模式。
So there's lots of skills we can learn, but this is really the question.
所以我们可以学习很多技能，但这确实是个问题。
It isn't, is this scenario true?
不是的，这个场景是真的吗？
It's, is this thought helpful in my ongoing life?
这是，这个想法对我今后的生活有帮助吗？
And so I think that the solution that your friend came to around maybe they needed that, we often have to find the story that may be true, it may not be true, but that quells the thoughts.
所以我认为你的朋友提出的解决方案可能是他们需要的，我们经常必须找到可能是真的，也可能不是真的的故事，但这可以平息这些想法。
It has to feel true to us, so there's no point in debating the truthiness of it.
它必须让我们感觉真实，所以没有必要争论它的真实性。
But it is the thing that allows us to move past the repetitive thoughts and back into the present moment.
但正是它让我们摆脱重复的想法，回到当下。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for that.
谢谢你。
I don't think there are any clear solutions or roadmap-
我认为没有任何明确的解决方案或路线图-
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for this suicide issue, which unfortunately is more common now, as I understand, unless it's more just-
对于这个自杀问题，不幸的是，据我所知，现在更常见，除非它更公正-
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a better detection.
更好的检测。
I think the statistics tell us that suicide rates are increasing.
我认为统计数据告诉我们自杀率正在上升。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
They are very much increasing.
它们正在大量增加。
And I can tell you, I've taught psychology of death and loss since 1999, and when we talked about suicide in the class, I used to ask the students, "Do any of you know someone who died by suicide?" And I'd get a few hands.
我可以告诉你，我从 1999 年开始教授死亡和失落心理学，当我们在课堂上谈论自杀时，我常常问学生：“你们中有人认识自杀身亡的人吗？”我会得到几只手。
And I will tell you, Andrew, a third of the class raises their hand now.
我告诉你，安德鲁，现在全班有三分之一的人举手了。
And these are 20-year-olds who often had a friend in high school, or a grandparent, or an uncle.
这些 20 岁的年轻人经常有高中时的朋友、祖父母或叔叔。
And so we have to talk about the epidemic itself, but we also have to talk about how do we cope with those losses.
因此，我们必须谈论疫情本身，但我们也必须谈论我们如何应对这些损失。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This increase in suicide rate cuts across all communities-
自杀率的上升影响了所有社区——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and level of academic-
和学术水平——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
It does
确实如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
prowess and athletic prowess.
实力和运动能力。
And it's always just baffling.
而且它总是令人困惑。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I don't think we're going to solve it in this discussion, but thank you for shedding light on the importance of allowing oneself to grieve it in the way that feels right.
所以我不认为我们会在这次讨论中解决这个问题，但感谢你阐明了让自己以感觉正确的方式悲伤的重要性。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that takes us back to this notion of taking oneself from the understandable response of protest and despair to a place of adaptive grieving.
这让我们回到了这样的观念：将自己从可以理解的抗议和绝望反应转变为适应性悲伤。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm very curious about belief systems-
我对信仰体系很好奇——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and moving through grief.
并度过悲伤。
And it's sometimes challenging on a podcast where we emphasize science and health-
在我们强调科学和健康的播客中，有时这是具有挑战性的——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to bring up notions of faith and religion-
提出信仰和宗教的概念——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
belief in afterlife and God-
相信来世和上帝——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah, uh-huh
是啊，呵呵
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and so forth.
等等。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I think we can do it in a way that's neither reducing any of that to neurons and neurochemicals-
但我认为我们可以以一种既不减少任何神经元和神经化学物质的方式来做到这一点-
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because, yes, there are studies of where is God in the brain and these kinds of things, but those studies always leave me personally feeling pretty underwhelmed.
因为，是的，有关于上帝在大脑中的位置以及诸如此类的事情的研究，但这些研究总是让我个人感到相当不知所措。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's just my own response.
这只是我自己的回应。
But it's very clear that for many of the eight billion plus people on this planet-
但很明显，对于这个星球上八十亿多人中的许多人来说——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
they believe in something larger than the experience we can see.
他们相信比我们能看到的经历更伟大的东西。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They have true faith-
他们有真正的信仰——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in God, Christ, Allah, whatever-
在上帝、基督、安拉，无论什么——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
particular religion they happen to orient toward, or some larger spirituality that's not nested in any of those things.
他们碰巧面向的特定宗教，或者某种不嵌套在这些事物中的更大的灵性。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that it can provide an enormously powerful structure to their thinking around loss.
它可以为他们关于损失的思考提供一个非常强大的结构。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't want to go too deeply into this because it's fresh, but I have a family member that right now, I won't mention the relationship, but who's dealing with arguably one of the worst losses-
我不想太深入地讨论这个问题，因为它是新鲜的，但我现在有一个家庭成员，我不会提及这种关系，但他正在处理可以说是最严重的损失之一 -
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I could possibly imagine.
我可以想象。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He lost his wife and the baby in childbirth.
他在分娩时失去了妻子和孩子。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I wrote them, he's now living with my cousin and his wife, and I extended what I could.
我写了这些，他现在和我的表弟和他的妻子住在一起，我尽我所能。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
What are you going to say?
你要说什么？
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you attempt to say something.
所以你试图说些什么。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I got back two words.
然后我就回复了两个字。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Infinite grief.
无限悲痛。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is probably two words more than is needed to-
这可能比需要的多两个字——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to even attempt to capture that.
甚至试图捕捉到这一点。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But he's a very devout Catholic.
但他是一位非常虔诚的天主教徒。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I don't know, but I would hope that provides some-
我不知道，但我希望这能提供一些-
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
path.
路径。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I can also say that the absence of a path-
我还可以说，没有路径——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is probably harder than having a path.
可能比拥有一条路更难。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
College football is back.
大学橄榄球回来了。
So Hilton called in me, the superstition concierge, to make your fan rituals a reality.
所以希尔顿请来了我这个迷信礼宾员，让你的粉丝仪式成为现实。
Need a room to match your lucky number?
需要一间与您的幸运数字相匹配的房间吗？
We got you.
我们找到你了。
Want to make sure our team doesn't wash your lucky jersey?
想要确保我们的团队不会清洗您的幸运球衣吗？
Oh, that smells lucky.
哦，这闻起来很幸运。
Hilton's unmatched hospitality can keep up with any superstition.
希尔顿无与伦比的热情好客可以消除任何迷信。
Even a marching band wake-up call at 5:55 and 55 seconds.
甚至还有 5 点 55 分 55 秒的军乐队叫醒服务。
Hit it.
击中它。
When you need a team that will do whatever it takes on game day, it matters where you stay.
当你需要一支在比赛当天不惜一切代价的球队时，你留在哪里就很重要。
Hilton.
希尔顿。
For the stay.
为了住宿。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
I think about this in a few different ways.
我从几个不同的角度思考这个问题。
I I think about the idea that death is something we have to contemplate.
我认为死亡是我们必须思考的事情。
We don't get out of doing it, and a lot of really smart, really wonderful people have gone before us who've thought about it and come up with ideas around God and the afterlife, and in multiple religions, in multiple cultures, in multiple times in history.
我们不会逃避这样做，在我们之前有很多非常聪明、非常出色的人思考过这个问题，并提出了围绕上帝和来世的想法，并且涉及多种宗教、多种文化、历史上的多个时期。
I don't need to know whether that's true or not to be able to see whether it's helpful or not.
我不需要知道这是否正确，就能看出它是否有帮助。
And I can say a couple of things.
我可以说几件事。
Religion often offers a community, a social support, which we've just been talking about is so vitally important.
宗教经常提供社区、社会支持，我们刚才谈到这一点非常重要。
So that's one function that it serves outside of belief, really, to some degree.
所以，在某种程度上，这是它所提供的一种令人难以置信的功能。
I mean, not outside of it, because obviously you fit with these people because you belong with them, because you have a shared belief, right?
我的意思是，不是在外面，因为显然你适合这些人，因为你属于他们，因为你们有共同的信仰，对吗？
I think one of the things that's really challenging, one of my graduate students, now a professor at Emory University, named Roman Pawlicki, looks at this idea of spirituality and religion and notes that while it can be very supportive for people who are grieving, it can also be a moment where our beliefs are challenged.
我认为其中一件真正具有挑战性的事情是，我的一位研究生，现在是埃默里大学的教授，名叫罗曼·帕里奇（Roman Pawlicki），他研究了灵性和宗教的概念，并指出，虽然它可以为悲伤的人提供很大的支持，但它也可能是我们的信仰受到挑战的时刻。
How could God let this happen?
上帝怎么会让这样的事情发生呢？
How could a benevolent God let this happen?
仁慈的上帝怎么会允许这样的事情发生呢？
Those sorts of things.
诸如此类的事情。
And what he finds is, if you think about spiritual quest or existential quest, that the loss of someone close to you is often this turning moment, and that that actually can be incredibly difficult and add a whole layer of stress and disruption in grieving.
他发现，如果你考虑精神追求或存在主义追求，失去亲近的人往往是一个转折时刻，而这实际上可能非常困难，并会在悲伤中增加一层压力和破坏。
So it isn't universally good to have religious beliefs or community because we can find ourselves at odds suddenly with what we believed before.
因此，拥有宗教信仰或社区并不是普遍的好事，因为我们可能会突然发现自己与以前的信仰不一致。
But I think about it in one other way as well.
但我也以另一种方式思考这个问题。
So, I'm a dyed-in-the-wool neuroscientist.
所以，我是一个地地道道的神经科学家。
I think that when I fall head over heels for this person, that that becomes encoded in my neurons.
我认为，当我为这个人神魂颠倒时，这种感觉就会被编码到我的神经元中。
I also think that that's proof that they are everlasting.
我也认为这证明了它们是永恒的。
They are physiologically my...
从生理上来说，他们是我的...
There is an epigenetic change that we know happens when prairie voles, those little rodents I was talking about, in the 24 hours after they mate for life.
我们知道，当草原田鼠（我指的是那些小型啮齿动物）终生交配后 24 小时内，就会发生表观遗传变化。
There's epigenetic changes.
有表观遗传变化。
The proteins around the genes in that nucleus accumbens region of the brain change because they fell in love.
大脑伏隔核区域的基因周围的蛋白质会因为他们坠入爱河而发生变化。
Not because they fell in love with just anyone, but they fell in love with this vole, and they will return to this vole and spend the majority of their time with this vole for the rest of their life.
不是因为他们爱上了任何一个人，而是因为他们爱上了这只田鼠，并且他们会回到这只田鼠身边，并与这只田鼠一起度过余生的大部分时间。
I cannot think of proof of something beyond the ordinary more than the idea that now two have literally become one.
我想不出比现在两个人真正合而为一的想法更能证明什么超出寻常的事情了。
That literally those neurons will forever be embedded with the other.
从字面上看，这些神经元将永远嵌入另一个神经元中。
So for me, I don't need it to be organized religion.
所以对我来说，我不需要它成为有组织的宗教。
I am perfectly happy to see the beauty and transcendence in the neural understanding of what happens in attachment and then how that has to change during grieving.
我非常高兴看到神经理解依恋中发生的事情以及悲伤期间发生的变化的美丽和超越。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And for those that believe in an afterlife by virtue of religious belief-
对于那些凭借宗教信仰相信来世的人来说——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
there must be data exploring whether they move through the grieving process in a more complete way.
必须有数据来探索他们是否以更完整的方式经历悲伤过程。
I could imagine that for people that have to accept the realities of biology without any real faith in an afterlife, that it's pretty hard to shut down the protest.
我可以想象，对于那些不得不接受生物学现实而又对来世没有真正信仰的人来说，很难阻止抗议活动。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And for those that believe in an afterlife, the idea that somebody's energy, or maybe even reincarnation, depending on someone's beliefs-
对于那些相信来世的人来说，一个人的能量，甚至可能是转世，取决于某人的信仰——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that takes the whole process out of protest-
这使得整个过程不再是抗议——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
through despair.
通过绝望。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You don't get to skip any steps.
您不能跳过任何步骤。
That's what I'm learning from you today.
这就是我今天向你学习的。
No one gets to skip any steps.
没有人可以跳过任何步骤。
Through despair and to this process of transmutation, that there's a path.
通过绝望和这个转变的过程，有一条路。
There's a path laid out should they believe in it, that they can follow.
只要他们相信，就有一条路可以走。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Whereas for people that don't have faith, they have to find their own path.
而对于没有信仰的人来说，他们必须找到自己的路。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
I think the research that speaks to this that I stick with, this is an older study now, but has always been remarkable to me.
我认为我坚持的研究表明了这一点，这是一项较旧的研究，但对我来说一直是非凡的。
And the reason that it is remarkable is it is a truly prospective bereavement study, which is incredibly rare.
它之所以引人注目，是因为它是一项真正的前瞻性丧亲研究，这是非常罕见的。
So what that means, this was called the Changing Lives of Older Couples study.
这意味着什么，这就是所谓的“改变老年夫妇的生活”研究。
It was done in Michigan, funded by NIH, and it was a 10-year study.
这项研究是在密歇根州进行的，由美国国立卫生研究院 (NIH) 资助，为期 10 年。
So to be accepted into the study, they looked for couples where one of the members of the couple was over 65.
因此，为了被接受参加这项研究，他们寻找其中一方年龄超过 65 岁的夫妇。
That was the entry criteria.
这就是进入标准。
You're a couple.
你们是情侣啊
One of you is over 65.
你们中的一位已经超过 65 岁了。
They interviewed both members of the couple about a host of different things And then they followed the couples for 10 years, and when one of them died, they went back and re-interviewed the surviving spouse.
他们就一系列不同的事情采访了这对夫妇的双方，然后他们跟踪了这对夫妇十年，当其中一人去世后，他们回去重新采访了幸存的配偶。
So what it means is, usually when we're doing grief-related studies, we're recruiting participants into the study after the death has happened, or maybe shortly before the death happens.
所以这意味着，通常当我们进行与悲伤相关的研究时，我们会在死亡发生后或可能在死亡发生前不久招募参与者加入研究。
But in those cases, we know that there's going to be a death, right?
但在这些情况下，我们知道将会有人死亡，对吧？
So this was, how are people just functioning in their life, and then later, what happens?
所以这就是，人们在生活中是如何运作的，然后，会发生什么？
And there was a natural control sample where they re-interviewed couples where both remained alive during that time.
他们在一个自然对照样本中重新采访了在那段时间里都还活着的夫妇。
All of this is to say, I don't think it will ever be funded again, because it was such a large and long study.
所有这一切都意味着，我认为它不会再次获得资助，因为这是一项如此庞大而漫长的研究。
But what it allowed us to do was look at their religious beliefs, look at their understanding of life and death before anyone was sick, and then see how that predicted how they handled grief later.
但它让我们能够做的是了解他们的宗教信仰，了解他们在任何人生病之前对生与死的理解，然后看看这如何预测他们后来如何处理悲伤。
And what we learned from that study is, for people who had a way of understanding the role of death in life, which for many people was a religious understanding, having a religious faith, a religious belief, but for some people was more of a philosophical or even sort of agricultural cycle-of-life kind of understanding.
我们从这项研究中学到的是，对于那些有一种理解死亡在生命中的作用的人来说，这对许多人来说是一种宗教理解，有一种宗教信仰，一种宗教信仰，但对一些人来说更多的是一种哲学甚至是一种农业生命周期的理解。
For those who had a way to understand these life and death type issues, it predicted less grief severity after the loss of the specific individual.
对于那些有办法理解这些生死类型问题的人来说，它预测在失去特定个人后悲伤的严重程度会减轻。
As though having thought through some of these existential issues in advance enables us when one situation happens, to at least hearken back to what we believed, with the caveat that it may throw your beliefs into disarray.
仿佛提前思考了其中一些存在问题使我们能够在某种情况发生时至少能够回想起我们的信念，但要注意的是，这可能会让你的信念陷入混乱。
But regard, in this empirical study at least, it offered a path, just as you said.
但请注意，至少在这项实证研究中，它提供了一条道路，正如你所说。
And so that to me suggests, if we take it out of just the empirical finding, that maybe we ought to be thinking about these things.
因此，对我来说，如果我们仅从实证研究中得出结论，也许我们应该考虑这些事情。
Maybe we need to contemplate what happens.
也许我们需要思考一下会发生什么。
How do we understand death and life and grief and illness, and how do we live our lives now knowing that that is a part of the future?
我们如何理解死亡、生命、悲伤和疾病，以及知道那是未来的一部分，我们现在如何生活？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think thinking about death is incredibly useful.
我认为思考死亡非常有用。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think most people are terrified to do it.
我认为大多数人都害怕这样做。
And I was for a long time, and then eventually enough friends of mine died-
我有很长一段时间，然后最终我足够多的朋友去世了-
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
some of whom were my age or younger-
其中一些人的年龄与我同龄或更小——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and I realized I got to think about this one.
我意识到我必须考虑一下这个问题。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
I know.
我知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I have a couple of questions about practices specifically.
所以我有几个关于实践的具体问题。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have this practice that I do every day, which is more or less like Yoga Nidra-
我每天都会进行这种练习，这或多或少类似于瑜伽休息术-
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
self-directed relaxation, long exhale breathing, which sort of coined non-sleep deep rest.
自我导向的放松，长长的呼气呼吸，这有点像非睡眠深度休息。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People who listen to this podcast have heard of it before.
听这个播客的人以前都听说过它。
On the first long exhale, believe it or not, I like to imagine that at some point-
在第一次长长的呼气时，不管你信不信，我喜欢想象在某个时刻——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and this is a very realistic thought, by the way-
顺便说一句，这是一个非常现实的想法——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
at some point, I will take my last exhale.
在某个时刻，我将进行最后一次呼气。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I want to be present for it.
我想出席。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hopefully, I will be, unless I go in my sleep or-
希望我会的，除非我睡着了或者——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
by sudden accident, or who knows, right?
突然的意外，或者谁知道呢，对吧？
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It serves a particular role for me, which is to just really acknowledge that time is finite.
它对我来说有一个特殊的作用，那就是真正承认时间是有限的。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it allows me to lean into life more.
它让我更加投入生活。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't exit that practice terrified.
我不会因为害怕而退出这种做法。
I exit that practice rejuvenated-
我退出练习后恢复了活力-
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and with the understanding that days are limited.
并了解日子有限。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The other thing is that I'm not such a huge fan of Hunter Thompson for any particular reason related to the drug-taking or the wild stories.
另一件事是，由于与吸毒或疯狂故事相关的任何特定原因，我并不是亨特·汤普森的忠实粉丝。
I'm amused by him, and certainly he did some interesting creative work.
我被他逗乐了，当然他也做了一些有趣的创造性工作。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love the stories about him.
我喜欢关于他的故事。
I have friends that live in Aspen, and stories about Hunter are everywhere still.
我有朋友住在阿斯彭，关于亨特的故事仍然随处可见。
But I learned that his wish for his funeral was that his ashes be shot out of a cannon over Aspen-
但我了解到他对葬礼的愿望是让他的骨灰从阿斯彭上空的大炮中射出——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and that there'd be a giant celebration.
并且将会有一场盛大的庆祝活动。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And when I learned about that, and this was some years ago, I decided to write out a document-
当我了解到这一点时，那是几年前的事了，我决定写一份文件——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which was not a will of assets.
这不是资产遗嘱。
I have that separately, but just a note to people.
我单独有这个，但只是给人们的一个说明。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it literally starts, "If I die-
它的开头是，“如果我死了——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
here are some things I'd like you to know."
我想让你知道一些事情。”
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I did that because I sort of wish people had done that for me-
我这样做是因为我希望人们为我这样做-
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and for the other people in their lives-
对于他们生命中的其他人来说——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because I see how much confusion-
因为我看到有多少混乱-
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and sadness and time is lost of life-
悲伤和时间都消失了——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the relatives and friends and loved ones of people that I have to believe didn't want that for the people they loved because they loved them.
我必须相信人们的亲戚、朋友和亲人并不希望他们所爱的人那样，因为他们爱他们。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Right.
正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I thought, this is a simple thing to do, but very hard to do.
所以我想，这是一件简单的事，但做起来却很难。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so if I went out on a limb here and I said, "Listen, I think everyone should do this." And by the way, I update this document quite often.
因此，如果我在这里冒险说：“听着，我认为每个人都应该这样做。”顺便说一下，我经常更新这个文档。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sometimes I add people to it, add things to it.
有时我会添加一些人，添加一些东西。
Some people get deleted.
有些人被删了。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's true.
这是真的。
I'm not a spiteful person, but some people just don't belong on that page any longer.
我不是一个心怀恶意的人，但有些人只是不再属于那个页面了。
But I feel very good about having this document.
但我对拥有这份文件感觉非常好。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I have a place where it's password protected, and someone has the password.
我有一个受密码保护的地方，并且有人拥有密码。
And why don't we do this?
我们为什么不这样做呢？
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not saying we should do this in the second grade.
我并不是说我们应该在二年级就这样做。
That's a lot to put on a second grader.
对于二年级学生来说，这是很多事情。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But why don't we do this when we graduate high school-
但为什么我们高中毕业时不这样做呢-
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or middle school-
或中学-
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and then just update that document.
然后更新该文档。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are we so terrified of dying that we're willing to shoulder the people we leave behind with immense amounts of grief that's frankly unnecessary?
我们是否如此害怕死亡，以至于愿意为身后的人承担巨大的悲伤，而坦率地说，这是不必要的？
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe I'm being too logical about this.
也许我对这个问题太逻辑化了。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I can tell you, Andrew, your friends will still grieve.
我可以告诉你，安德鲁，你的朋友们仍然会悲伤。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well-
嗯-
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Even with the document.
即使有文件。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All right.
好吧。
Well, hopefully they, I don't know, go adopt bulldogs while they do it.
好吧，希望他们，我不知道，在他们这样做的时候去收养斗牛犬。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's things that for me-
有些事情对我来说——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
if they really want to know what they could do-
如果他们真的想知道他们能做什么-
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
That's right, yeah
原来如此，是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
if the desire is to transmute my memory-
如果愿望是改变我的记忆——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes, yeah
是的，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a lot of it just has to do with I wouldn't want them to miss a moment.
很多都是因为我不想让他们错过任何一个时刻。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I really wouldn't.
我真的不会。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I wouldn't want them necessarily to forget me, but the notion that people would lose life energy-
我并不希望他们一定会忘记我，但人们会失去生命能量的想法——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
trying to bring back what's impossible.
试图带回不可能的事情。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
To me, I understand that you can't skip this process.
对我来说，我明白你不能跳过这个过程。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know.
我不知道。
I think Hunter had it right.
我认为亨特说得对。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Throw a big party.
举办一场盛大的派对。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
And I think you are right.
我认为你是对的。
In many cultures, you think of the New Orleans jazz funeral, right?
在许多文化中，您都会想到新奥尔良爵士葬礼，对吗？
There are many cultures where it is very celebratory, and there is nothing wrong with wanting that, and there is nothing wrong with giving permission from beyond the grave to your friends and loved ones and family to feel that way.
在许多文化中，庆祝活动都是非常值得庆祝的，想要这样并没有什么错，并且在坟墓之外允许你的朋友、亲人和家人有这种感觉也没有错。
I will also say, I also wish that childbirth wasn't painful, but it is.
我还会说，我也希望分娩不痛苦，但确实如此。
So they're going to grieve because they are attached to you.
所以他们会因为依恋你而悲伤。
It's just how it works.
这就是它的工作原理。
They don't get to pick.
他们无权选择。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
They don't get to say, "Oh, Andrew wouldn't want this to happen, and so I won't grieve."
他们不会说：“哦，安德鲁不希望这种事发生，所以我不会悲伤。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Darn it.
该死的。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
I'm sorry.
对不起。
But I still think that it is valuable for them.
但我仍然认为这对他们来说很有价值。
I also think it's very valuable for you.
我也认为这对你来说非常有价值。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
So what you said was, are we all just so terrified?
所以你说的是，我们都这么害怕吗？
And yes.
是的。
The answer is yes.
答案是肯定的。
Even research shows us, something called terror management theory, tells us that we are so terrified of dying that we have all these psychological ways that we avoid the reality that we all know is true, that we do all sorts of things to keep it out of sight, keep it out of mind.
甚至有研究表明，一种叫做恐怖管理理论的东西告诉我们，我们是如此害怕死亡，以至于我们有所有这些心理方式来逃避我们都知道的现实，我们会做各种各样的事情来让它远离我们的视线，让它远离我们的脑海。
And one of the ways we can do that is by not writing about it, right?
我们可以做到这一点的方法之一就是不写它，对吧？
Not talking about it.
不谈这个了。
I had an experience when my mother was in the final stages of dying.
当我母亲处于临终的最后阶段时，我有过一次经历。
I was flying back and forth to this little, tiny, mountainous hometown over and over again, and because I was in graduate school at the time, and whenever there was turbulence, I would have a panic attack.
我一遍又一遍地飞来飞去这个小而小、多山的家乡，而且因为当时我正在读研究生，每当有颠簸的时候，我就会惊慌失措。
Whenever the plane took off, whenever the plane landed, I would have a panic attack.
每当飞机起飞，每当飞机降落，我都会惊恐发作。
And I worked with that for a long time.
我为此工作了很长时间。
I was studying clinical psychology.
我正在学习临床心理学。
I knew the first and most important thing was not to avoid flying.
我知道首要也是最重要的事情是不要避免飞行。
The exposure of doing it again and again, as brutally painful as it was, was important.
一次又一次地这样做，虽然非常痛苦，但很重要。
I never wanted to give up flying, give up that way of living.
我从来没有想过放弃飞行，放弃那种生活方式。
But at some point, as time went on, I realized I was terrified of dying, and I also realized that was going to happen.
但在某个时刻，随着时间的推移，我意识到我害怕死亡，而且我也意识到这将会发生。
And I also developed a practice, partly through Buddhist training, as you yourself talked about, but I developed a practice of whenever there was turbulence, saying to myself, "Yes, you are not wrong.
我也发展了一种修行，部分是通过佛教训练，正如你自己谈到的，但我发展了一种每当有动荡时的修行，对自己说：“是的，你没有错。
This could be the day.
这可能就是这一天。
Are you okay with that?
你同意吗？
And if you're not okay with that, what do you need to do to get your life right so you are okay with it?" And to live your life with the knowledge that we will die, and to prepare to say, "I love you, I forgive you, please forgive me, and I'm grateful," as often as we need to, but also to know that we might not die.
如果你对此不满意，你需要做什么才能让你的生活正常，这样你就可以接受它？”并在生活中知道我们会死，并准备好经常说“我爱你，我原谅你，请原谅我，我很感激”，但也要知道我们可能不会死。
And so of course, we also have to plan for that, too.
当然，我们也必须为此做好计划。
But my point here is, that terror you're talking about is real.
但我的观点是，你所说的恐怖是真实的。
It is physiological.
这是生理性的。
And for many of us, I think learning how to deal with the terror around death is, in part, a way of learning how to live and understand and cope with and use a toolkit to think about the pain of grief, those waves of grief that come.
对于我们许多人来说，我认为学习如何应对死亡带来的恐惧在某种程度上是学习如何生活、理解、应对和使用工具包来思考悲伤的痛苦和即将到来的悲伤浪潮的一种方式。
All of these things teach us more about how our body reacts.
所有这些事情都让我们更多地了解我们的身体如何反应。
Our unique body, only this one, right?
我们独一无二的身体，只有这一个吧？
This is the one time that this instance will happen that is Mary Frances.
这是玛丽·弗朗西斯（Mary Frances）这样的例子发生的唯一一次。
How does it respond to loss?
它如何应对损失？
How does it react?
它有何反应？
What soothes Mary Frances?
什么能安抚玛丽·弗朗西斯？
What actually makes Mary Frances feel more connected?
究竟是什么让玛丽·弗朗西斯感觉更有联系？
Learning all of those things, they teach us how to be more authentic in the world because we're the only one that gets to do this instance.
学习所有这些东西，它们教会我们如何在世界上变得更加真实，因为我们是唯一能够做到这一点的人。
I will say that in the book that I wrote recently, "The Grieving Body," some of these lessons have come to me because I have multiple sclerosis.
我想说的是，在我最近写的《悲伤的身体》一书中，我学到了其中一些教训，因为我患有多发性硬化症。
And so learning to live in a body that I don't know when I wake up some mornings, will I be too fatigued to lecture standing up?
所以学习生活在一个我不知道早上醒来时的身体里，我会不会太累而无法站着讲课？
Guess I'm going to have to change how I do today, has meant I have a lot of empathy for people who are grieving.
我想我今天必须改变自己的做法，这意味着我对悲伤的人有很多同情心。
They don't get to pick that today is the day that they're going to be a basket case, or today is the day they're going to be so foggy they can't remember where the heck they parked, even though they're a perfectly normal, functional human being.
他们无法选择今天是他们将成为一个篮子的日子，或者今天是他们将大雾的一天，以至于不记得他们到底停在哪里，即使他们是一个完全正常的、功能正常的人。
Or today is the day that really cereal is all they can muster for dinner.
或者今天是他们晚餐只能吃麦片的日子。
I have a lot of empathy for that because that is just the natural reaction.
我对此非常同情，因为这只是自然反应。
You don't get to pick.
你没得选。
You do get to pick a little bit over time how you cope with it, how you adapt to it.
随着时间的推移，你确实会选择如何应对、如何适应它。
But it gives me a lot of empathy for people who are listening right now who are in infinite grief, even though it won't be infinite like it is today.
但这让我对那些正在倾听的人充满了同情，他们处于无限的悲伤之中，尽管它不会像今天这样无限悲伤。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Beautifully put.
摆得很漂亮。
The thought that comes to mind is, we hear about people, like say, going through a really rough cancer treatment-
我想到的是，我们听说人们正在经历非常艰难的癌症治疗——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or some other rough patch of life.
或生活中其他一些艰难的时刻。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there's this will to live thing.
还有一种生存的意愿。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The more I read about this in the neuroscience, there seems to be some relationship to this anterior midcingulate cortex-
我在神经科学方面读到的越多，似乎与前扣带皮层有某种关系——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
tenacity, willpower thing.
坚韧，意志力这东西。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You never want to boil things down to a single brain structure, but the anterior midcingulate cortex and structures within its network-
你永远不想把事情归结为单一的大脑结构，但前中扣带皮层及其网络内的结构-
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
do seem to be related to this idea of, I'm going to lean into the challenge.
似乎确实与这个想法有关，我将迎接挑战。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that's a beautiful notion.
这是一个美好的想法。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think It's made even more beautiful by what I'm learning today, which is the understanding that we need to learn how to go from that-
我认为我今天所学到的东西使它变得更加美丽，这就是我们需要学习如何从此开始的理解-
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that sort of protest.
那种抗议。
No.
不。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's like I'm going to-
就好像我要-
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
get up, shower, get dressed, even if it feels like running a marathon today.
起床、洗澡、穿衣服，即使今天感觉就像跑马拉松。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you've grieved, you've been there.
如果你悲伤过，那么你就曾经历过。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then also to the, "You know what?
然后还说：“你知道吗？
I'm just going to dissolve into a puddle of my own tears for-
我只想化作自己的泪水，因为——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a couple hours."
几个小时。”
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Under a blanket.
在毯子下。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then I know that I'll be able to emerge from that-
然后我知道我能够从中走出来-
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and do it again.
然后再做一次。
And for people that are responsible for kids or for anything-
对于那些对孩子或任何事情负责的人——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
even taking a dog out for a walk-
甚至带狗出去散步——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
what I just described is truly a mental and physical marathon.
我刚才所描述的确实是一场精神和身体的马拉松。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
It really is.
确实如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not just a mental, emotional marathon.
这不仅仅是一场精神和情感的马拉松。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
It's not.
事实并非如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what I'm learning and realizing in talking to you and learning about your work a bit more here is that this is a process-
因此，在与您交谈并进一步了解您的工作时，我学到并意识到这是一个过程 -
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of learning to go back and forth from the accelerator to the brake, to the just collapse-
学习从油门到刹车，再到崩溃的来回——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to repeat.
重复。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we don't know how long it's going to last.
而且我们不知道这种情况会持续多久。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-mm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we know from the literature on stress-
我们从有关压力的文献中知道——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that not knowing how long something is going to last-
不知道某件事会持续多久-
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is one of the most stressful things about a stressor.
是压力源最有压力的事情之一。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
It is.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So for people that are navigating this grief process in the context of loss of life-
因此，对于那些在失去生命的情况下经历悲伤过程的人们来说——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or perhaps breakups.
或者也许是分手。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We didn't really get into this, but for some people-
我们并没有真正深入探讨这个问题，但对于某些人来说-
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
especially people that have never been through a major breakup before-
尤其是那些以前从未经历过重大分手的人——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it can be devastating.
这可能是毁灭性的。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You talked about some of the steps, and we can put some more broad advice around it to just feel or, but is there anything that you want people to make sure to remember-
您谈到了一些步骤，我们可以围绕它提出一些更广泛的建议，只是感觉或者，但是您希望人们确保记住什么-
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the moments where it feels like too much, overwhelming, they can't remember if they're in protest, despair, they don't give a damn about go or no go-
在感觉太多、压倒性的时刻，他们不记得自己是否在抗议、绝望，他们根本不在乎去还是不去——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or transmutation.
或嬗变。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're just like, "This sucks."
他们只是说，“这太糟糕了。”
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
College football is back.
大学橄榄球回来了。
So Hilton called in me, the superstition concierge, to make your fan rituals a reality.
所以希尔顿请来了我这个迷信礼宾员，让你的粉丝仪式成为现实。
Need a room to match your lucky number?
需要一间与您的幸运数字相匹配的房间吗？
We got you.
我们找到你了。
Want to make sure our team doesn't wash your lucky jersey?
想要确保我们的团队不会清洗您的幸运球衣吗？
Ooh, that smells lucky.
哦，这闻起来很幸运。
Hilton's unmatched hospitality can keep up with any superstition.
希尔顿无与伦比的热情好客可以消除任何迷信。
Even a marching band wake-up call at 5:55 and 55 seconds.
甚至还有 5 点 55 分 55 秒的军乐队叫醒服务。
Hit it.
击中它。
When you need a team that will do whatever it takes on game day, it matters where you stay.
当你需要一支在比赛当天不惜一切代价的球队时，你留在哪里就很重要。
Hilton.
希尔顿。
For the stay.
为了住宿。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
No way to optimize your grieving.
没有办法优化你的悲伤。
When people say, I say this jokingly, but, I say to people sometimes, "Well, when did you get over your wedding day?" Right?
当人们说时，我开玩笑地说，但是，有时我会对人们说，“那么，你什么时候度过婚礼的日子的？”正确的？
Because that's not a question that makes any sense.
因为这不是一个没有任何意义的问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
That's like saying, "When did you get over your loss?"
这就像在说：“你什么时候走出失落的阴影？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Right?
对吗？
So I think it's funny that you've really picked up on this.
所以我觉得很有趣的是你真的意识到了这一点。
We talk about, in the literature on grief and grieving, this idea of oscillation.
我们在有关悲伤和悲痛的文献中谈论这种振荡的概念。
That mental health is really about oscillation.
心理健康实际上与振荡有关。
We call it the dual process model of bereavement.
我们称之为丧亲之痛的双重过程模型。
And the idea is that when people can have the loss, feelings, thoughts, behaviors, barely can make cereal, and also can have the restoration stressors they have to deal with.
这个想法是，当人们可以有失落、感觉、想法、行为时，几乎不能做麦片，也可以有他们必须处理的恢复压力。
And I don't mean this as a good thing.
我并不是说这是一件好事。
This is like, "Wait, I have to do the taxes, and I've never done the taxes.
这就像，“等等，我必须报税，但我从来没有报过税。
But I got to figure it out because apparently life goes on." So it is stressful, but the capacity to oscillate back and forth between dealing with the loss of this loved person and restoring a meaningful life, being able to go back and forth is actually the sign of health.
但我必须弄清楚，因为显然生活还要继续。”所以压力很大，但是能够在处理失去亲人和恢复有意义的生活之间来回摇摆的能力，能够来回摇摆实际上是健康的标志。
And I will give you an example that has always stuck with me.
我将举一个我一直印象深刻的例子。
I think knowing that people, they cry a lot when they're grieving, and it is hard to see until you get familiar with the idea that nope, this is just what it is.
我想知道人们在悲伤时会哭很多，除非你熟悉这个想法，否则很难看出，不，这就是事实。
Right?
正确的？
And this older man that was in one of my research studies when I was at UCLA, I often will ask people, "How did your loved one die?" at the beginning of a clinical interview.
当我在加州大学洛杉矶分校时，一位参与我的一项研究的年长男子，我经常会问人们：“你所爱的人是怎么死的？”在临床访谈开始时。
And I let them start wherever they interpret that as broadly as they want to.
我让他们从他们想要的广泛解释的任何地方开始。
And he told me that he had fallen in love with his high school sweetheart, and they had gotten married and had two kids, and there was a picket fence in there somewhere.
他告诉我，他爱上了他高中时的恋人，他们结婚了，生了两个孩子，那里有一个尖桩篱笆。
And he told me that she got breast cancer and that he cared for her while she was on hospice, and then he cried when he told me about her dying, which had been about two years ago.
他告诉我她得了乳腺癌，在她住院期间他照顾她，然后当他告诉我她去世的消息时，他哭了，那是大约两年前的事了。
And then he told me that he had been going to dinner with this woman, who was very different from his wife, but that she brought out really different parts of his personality, and that he was really enjoying having dinner with him, and he was very surprised by this.
然后他告诉我，他一直在和这个女人一起吃饭，她和他的妻子非常不同，但她展现了他性格中不同的部分，他真的很喜欢和他一起吃饭，他对此感到非常惊讶。
And then he looked at me and he said, "The thing is, it was really good then, and it's really good now." And to me, that was sort of the encapsulation of mental health.
然后他看着我说：“问题是，当时真的很好，现在也真的很好。”对我来说，这就是心理健康的概括。
Not that he didn't cry when he talked about her dying, but that he could go back and forth and fully participate in life now, too.
并不是说当他谈到她的死亡时他没有哭，而是说他现在也可以来回完全参与生活了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's awesome.
太棒了。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a very warming story.
这是一个非常温暖的故事。
And what you said before about that it's okay and you need to just feel it, and that there's no way to optimize-
你之前说过，没关系，你只需要感受它，并且没有办法优化-
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I realize that perhaps the only way to prolong the process is by trying to shorten it.
我意识到，也许延长这个过程的唯一方法就是尝试缩短它。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You know?
你知道吗？
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Oh, Andrew, that's brilliant.
哦，安德鲁，太棒了。
I may have to borrow that.
我可能得借一下。
The only way to prolong the process is to try and shorten it.
延长这个过程的唯一方法就是尝试缩短它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, having Gone through different forms of loss and seen other people go through different forms of loss.
嗯，经历过不同形式的损失，也看到其他人经历过不同形式的损失。
It's like the brain, especially the thinking brain-
就像大脑，尤其是思考脑——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
will do anything-
会做任何事情-
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Anything
任何东西
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to try and get around the thing.
尝试绕过这件事。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Anything.
任何东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then, there's no easy way to jump in the cold water-
然后，跳进冷水里可没那么容易——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
take a gut punch or you just, at some point you just-
挨一拳，或者你只是，在某些时候你只是——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you just got to do it.
你必须这么做。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
I think it is true that along with rumination, that avoidance actually makes it harder.
我认为确实，除了沉思之外，这种回避实际上会让事情变得更加困难。
So sometimes people are avoiding a conversation.
所以有时人们会回避谈话。
Sometimes people are avoiding driving by the hospital.
有时人们会避免开车经过医院。
They'll drive an hour out of the way so they don't have to go by the place where it happened-
他们会开一个小时的车，这样他们就不用经过事发地点——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really
真的
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
...
...
and be reminded.
并被提醒。
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Makes sense when you say it.
当你说的时候有道理。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Right?
对吗？
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Or they avoid dealing with the closet of the person, right?
或者他们避免与人的秘密打交道，对吧？
All of these methods of avoidance, which as you said, in some way are partially protest.
所有这些回避方法，正如你所说，在某种程度上都是抗议。
It makes it harder for us to learn how to be in life now.
这让我们现在更难学会如何生活。
The classic example is the couple who used to go to dinner with their couple friends every Friday or whatever, and one of them dies.
典型的例子是一对夫妇，他们曾经每周五或其他时间和他们的情侣朋友一起去吃饭，其中一人去世了。
And she just can't go to dinner with her friends anymore.
她再也不能和朋友一起去吃饭了。
Say that's what she's avoiding.
说这就是她所回避的。
We each have to have a come to ourselves moment and be honest with ourselves about what it is we're avoiding.
我们每个人都必须清醒过来，并对自己诚实地了解我们正在避免的事情。
But if, let's say that's the case, and let's say she reaches out and she says, "Look, I don't want to do this.
但是，如果情况确实如此，假设她伸出手说：“听着，我不想这样做。
It seems really painful, but I miss you guys, too, and so let's try going to dinner." And I will tell you, it's going to suck.
看起来真的很痛苦，但我也想念你们，所以我们试着去吃晚饭吧。”我会告诉你，这会很糟糕。
She is going to feel awful, and she is going to be reminded of him the whole time.
她会感觉很糟糕，她会一直想起他。
And she is going to think, "I never want to do that again." And then when she does it again, it's still going to suck.
她会想：“我再也不想这样做了。”然后当她再次这样做时，它仍然会很糟糕。
But maybe she also has a conversation with her friend about a book she hadn't heard of, and she thinks, "Well, maybe I'll get that book." And then there's this slow upward spiral, right, with the support of the people around us, where we start to figure out what is life like with this person not on this earthly plane.
但也许她还与她的朋友谈论了一本她从未听说过的书，她想，“好吧，也许我会买那本书。”然后，在我们周围的人的支持下，就会出现缓慢的螺旋上升，我们开始弄清楚这个人不在地球上的生活是什么样的。
How do I do things?
我该如何做事？
You do the things first.
你先把事情做好。
The motivation, the good feelings, they come much later.
动力、美好的感觉，要晚得多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like so many things in life.
就像生活中的很多事情一样。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They told us it was the other way around.
他们告诉我们事实恰恰相反。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
I know.
我知道。
They lied.
他们撒谎了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They lied.
他们撒谎了。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
They lied.
他们撒谎了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's a great "Simpsons" episode where Lisa Simpson has a poem about her cat that died.
《辛普森一家》中有一个很棒的情节，丽莎·辛普森有一首关于她死去的猫的诗。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And she said, "They said that he was sleeping.
她说：“他们说他正在睡觉。
They lied."
他们撒谎了。”
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"They lied." And I li--
“他们撒谎了。”而我——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
So true.
如此真实。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's so true.
这是真的。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
So true.
如此真实。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Lisa's very smart.
丽莎很聪明。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
She is very smart.
她很聪明。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
She's very smart.
她很聪明。
Maybe the only one in the family.
也许是家里唯一的一个人。
You offered a really beautiful parallel to an anniversary.
你提供了一个非常美丽的周年纪念日。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or we could say, or the birth of a child.
或者我们可以说，或者孩子的出生。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We have memorials.
我们有纪念馆。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We have the one upon death.
我们死后就有了那一位。
We have the memorial usually on the year anniversary of someone's passing.
我们通常在某人去世的周年纪念日举行纪念活动。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And over time, they become celebrations of life, not death.
随着时间的推移，它们变成了对生命的庆祝，而不是对死亡的庆祝。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've always been struck by this.
我一直对此感到震惊。
Despite everything we know about memory, the recency effect, that we remember things that happened more recently more than we remember things that happened at the beginning.
尽管我们对记忆有很多了解，但近因效应是指我们对最近发生的事情的记忆比对开始时发生的事情的记忆要多。
There's also the primacy effect.
还有首因效应。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, we had an episode about this.
好的，我们有一集是关于这个的。
People can look it up, but we remember things that are more recent in time than more distant in time.
人们可以查到它，但我们记住的事情是最近的事情而不是更遥远的事情。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Obviously.
显然。
And yet, if somebody has a long life or even a short life-
然而，如果一个人的生命很长，甚至很短——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and then there's a really rough ending.
然后就是一个非常粗糙的结局。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
At the time of the memorial, it's hard to set that aside.
在纪念馆举行之际，很难将其抛在一边。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it does seem to get erased-
但似乎确实被抹掉了——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
without a lot of specific intention.
没有太多具体的意图。
Now, I guess there are exceptions, so if somebody-
现在，我想也有例外，所以如果有人——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
died a violent death or in cases of suicide, I realize there are exceptions.
死于暴力或自杀的情况下，我知道也有例外。
But having been a pallbearer at funerals and had felt the body roll in the casket-
但作为葬礼上的护柩者，感觉到尸体在棺材里滚动——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and you're like, "Ugh."
你会说，“呃。”
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Ooh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's just a rough feeling.
这只是一种粗糙的感觉。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
It's real.
这是真的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a really rough feeling.
这真是一种粗糙的感觉。
Or watching somebody really suffer.
或者看着某人真正受苦。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'll never forget seeing my grandfather really trying to take breaths-
我永远不会忘记看到我的祖父真的想喘口气——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and it was just awful to see.
看到这真是太糟糕了。
But that's not what I think about when I think about him.
但当我想到他时，我的想法并不是这样的。
With each passing year, you remember more of the life, not the death.
随着时间的推移，你会记住更多关于生的事，而不是关于死亡的事。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In most cases.
大多数情况下。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a beautiful feature to all this.
这是所有这一切的一个美丽的特征。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's like nature made all of this very, very difficult.
就好像大自然让这一切变得非常非常困难。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But then scored us one little twist in the whole thing-
但后来给我们带来了整个事情的一个小转折——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that violates everything I understand about memory.
这违反了我对记忆的理解。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What do you think that is?
你认为那是什么？
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
I think that it's a mystery.
我认为这是一个谜。
Why does it work this way?
为什么会这样？
Except that it helps us to be more resilient, right?
除了它可以帮助我们变得更有弹性，对吗？
I think there's a lot of things where around the time of the loss, we're very zoomed in.
我认为在失利期间，我们非常关注很多事情。
People feel guilty.
人们感到内疚。
"I should've done this," right?
“我应该这样做，”对吧？
They're zoomed in on the role that you played, even though 100 different people interacted.
尽管有 100 个不同的人互动，但他们还是会放大你所扮演的角色。
Or we're zoomed in on how they felt during that last week instead of how they felt their whole life.
或者我们会关注他们上周的感受，而不是他们一生的感受。
You're zoomed in on, "I didn't say goodbye." But think of all the times you said goodbye, and I love you.
你放大了，“我没有说再见。”但想想你每次说再见，我爱你。
And so, I think it makes sense, right?
所以，我认为这是有道理的，对吗？
Our brain is trying to understand this very important thing that is happening.
我们的大脑正在试图理解正在发生的这件非常重要的事情。
Of course, you are zoomed in on it happening.
当然，你会放大它的发生。
But over time, as we adjust, we realize we sort of are able to zoom out more, and we're able to see this in context of so many things.
但随着时间的推移，随着我们的调整，我们意识到我们能够缩小更多范围，并且我们能够在很多事情的背景下看到这一点。
I'm reminded that as we sleep, one of the functions of those dreams seems to be that we'll go through events again and again, but it's as though the brain is finding a way to detach some of the intensity of the emotion from the memory Right.
我想起，当我们睡觉时，这些梦的功能之一似乎是我们会一次又一次地经历事件，但大脑似乎正在寻找一种方法，将一些强烈的情绪从记忆中分离出来。
And so maybe this is a similar process over many nights and many days, where we're able to gain a little more perspective over time and over experience.
因此，也许这是一个类似的过程，需要经过很多个夜晚和很多天，随着时间的推移和经验的积累，我们能够获得更多的视角。
So if, for example, you won't allow yourself to think about those loss moments, the moment that he was struggling to breathe, or when you saw the car accident, or whatever it is.
因此，例如，如果你不允许自己思考那些失落的时刻，他呼吸困难的时刻，或者当你看到车祸时，或者其他什么事情。
If you won't allow yourself to think about it, that has different implications for memory.
如果你不允许自己思考它，这会对记忆产生不同的影响。
And then often it does get more emotional so that the process of avoidance is actually sort of calling it up and then suppressing it.
然后它往往会变得更加情绪化，因此回避的过程实际上是一种唤起它然后压制它的过程。
So you're actually calling it up more often than you would if you would just let it come.
所以你实际上比你愿意让它来的时候更频繁地调用它。
Right?
正确的？
So, I don't want to make light of it.
所以，我不想轻视它。
In some of those cases, it can be very helpful if people are having troubling memories, and especially if the troubling memories are getting worse over time.
在某些情况下，如果人们有令人不安的记忆，尤其是随着时间的推移，令人不安的记忆变得越来越糟，这可能会非常有帮助。
This is an important time to seek out a psychologist, because we have intervention strategies of how to navigate that.
这是寻找心理学家的重要时刻，因为我们有如何应对这一问题的干预策略。
It is not normal for people to get worse over time and for that to persist.
随着时间的推移，人们的情况会变得更糟并持续下去，这是不正常的。
So it is understandable to feel worse on the anniversary.
因此，在周年纪念日感到更糟糕是可以理解的。
It's understandable to feel worse on their birthday or something like that, in time-limited ways.
在生日或类似的事情上以有限的方式感觉更糟糕是可以理解的。
But if, in general, the stock market is getting worse consistently, that is a time to seek professional help.
但如果总体而言股市持续恶化，那就是寻求专业帮助的时候了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for that message.
谢谢你的留言。
I have one last question, but it's a kind of big one.
我还有最后一个问题，但这是一个很大的问题。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So we can take as much time as we need to parse it.
所以我们可以花尽可能多的时间来解析它。
And that's about time perception.
这就是时间感知。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So when we're kids-
所以当我们还是孩子的时候——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
hopefully we don't have a whole lot of notion of death, at least at the beginning.
希望我们没有太多关于死亡的概念，至少在一开始是这样。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it seems like life is going to go on forever.
生活似乎将永远继续下去。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that can last into one's teens and 20s.
这种情况可能会持续到十几岁和二十几岁。
It can be constructive in certain ways.
它在某些方面可能具有建设性。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It can be destructive in certain ways.
它在某些方面可能具有破坏性。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I had the experience where my second advisor, my graduate advisor, all three of my advisors are dead, incidentally, but my graduate advisor was dying of breast cancer.
我有过这样的经历，我的第二位导师、我的研究生导师、我的三位导师都去世了，顺便说一句，但我的研究生导师却死于乳腺癌。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And she was very close to the end.
她已经非常接近结局了。
She died at 50.
她50岁时去世。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Incredible woman.
不可思议的女人。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I did have the opportunity to have a call with her.
我确实有机会和她通了电话。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Ah.
啊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which was an incredible experience.
这是一次令人难以置信的经历。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm just going to talk about it superficially because-
我只是肤浅地谈谈它，因为——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Of course
当然
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I don't want this to be about my experience.
我不希望这与我的经历有关。
I'm using this by way of example.
我用这个来举例。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've cried before on this podcast and a few others.
我以前在这个播客和其他几个播客上哭过。
I don't feel like crying today.
今天我不想哭。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm just going to take that-
我只想接受——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
And that's good emotion regulation.
这就是良好的情绪调节。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And it's my podcast, so I can decide when I-
这是我的播客，所以我可以决定何时-
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
That's right
没错
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
most of the time I can decide when I-
大多数时候我可以决定何时-
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
This is the tool
这是工具
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
cry or not cry.
哭还是不哭。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it was so interesting-
但这太有趣了——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that in that conversation, I wanted to know what I could do.
在那次谈话中，我想知道我能做什么。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Visit the girls.
拜访女孩们。
There was a course that I helped fundraise for in her name, et cetera.
我以她的名义帮助筹款了一门课程等等。
But one thing that we talked about-
但我们讨论过一件事——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
was the fact that there were these little moments that she had accrued in the weeks leading up to what-- She knew she was going to die.
事实上，在这几周里，她积累了一些小时刻，直到——她知道自己即将死去。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And she even said-
她甚至还说——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
"This is going to be our..." I'll stop.
“这将是我们的……”我会停下来。
She said, "This will be our last conversation."
她说：“这将是我们最后一次谈话。”
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
And it was like, whoa, she got it.
就像，哇，她明白了。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And she was describing these little moments.
她正在描述这些小时刻。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm saying this with joy, even though-
我很高兴地说这句话，尽管——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I'm welling up a little bit.
我有点流口水了。
The little things, like she had watched the Giants, she was a big Giants fan.
一些小事情，比如她看过巨人队比赛，她是巨人队的忠实粉丝。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Watched the Giants game with the girls.
和女孩们一起观看了巨人队的比赛。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Ah.
啊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They had gone to the House of Flowers.
他们去了花之屋。
She was married there.
她在那里结婚了。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Incidentally, we did her memorial there as well.
顺便说一下，我们也在那里为她举行了纪念活动。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Wonderful.
太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
These little moments, and it almost seemed as if she was fine-slicing time-
这些微小的时刻，几乎就像她在精细地切割时间一样——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
down to such narrow slices.
直到如此狭窄的切片。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I almost expected her to tell me that a bird flew past her window.
我几乎以为她会告诉我一只鸟飞过她的窗户。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The things that we miss-
那些我们怀念的东西——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
when we're in the speed of life.
当我们处于生活的速度中时。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's like not thinking about death-
所以这就像不去思考死亡一样——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
allows us to think in these bigger bins.
让我们能够在这些更大的垃圾箱中思考。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's very adaptive.
它的适应性很强。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And yet there was something really beautiful-
然而还有一些非常美丽的东西——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
about what she was experiencing, this fine slicing of time.
关于她正在经历的事情，这段美好的时光。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I've been motivated to read, there's a wonderful book, "The Secret Pulse of Time"-
我一直有动力去读，有一本很棒的书，《时间的秘密脉搏》——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that talks about this somewhat.
这在某种程度上谈到了这一点。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you read "The Denial of Death"-
如果你读过《否认死亡》——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you learn about this.
你了解这一点。
So as people get closer and closer to the end-
所以当人们越来越接近结局时——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
their time perception changes.
他们的时间观念发生了变化。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're in a high frame rate.
它们处于高帧速率。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they're gleaning tons of experience in short amounts of time.
他们在短时间内收集了大量的经验。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do we have any idea what this is?
我们知道这是什么吗？
I'm sure there's a neural circuit.
我确信有一个神经回路。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I'm curious what you think about this in terms of our experience of life-
但我很好奇你根据我们的生活经历对此有何看法-
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
dying, and grief.
死亡和悲伤。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like I said, small question.
就像我说的，小问题。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah, small questions.
是的，小问题。
I know that there is a scientific basis, although it is a very difficult time to do research during terminal illness and especially close to the end of life.
我知道这是有科学依据的，尽管在绝症期间，尤其是临近生命的尽头，进行研究是非常困难的。
But there is some research in this area.
但在这方面已有一些研究。
Not, again, an expert in it, but I will tell you that learning to regulate our attention is, of course, at the basis of learning to regulate a lot of things about our body, our mind, our emotions.
再说一次，我不是这方面的专家，但我会告诉你，学习调节我们的注意力当然是在学习调节我们的身体、思想和情绪的很多事情的基础上的。
And I think of it this way, there are periods of my life where I have very little energy, where I can't shower standing up, for example.
我是这样想的，在我生命中的某些时期，我精力很少，例如，我无法站着洗澡。
I don't have that kind of energy to spare.
我没有那么多的精力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because of the MS.
因为MS。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Because of the MS.
因为MS。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
And what it teaches me is, first, the difference between motivation and energy.
它教给我的是，首先，动机和能量之间的区别。
So I can be unmotivated to go to the gym, but if I can overcome the motivation problem, I often have the energy to work out.
所以我可能没有动力去健身房，但如果我能克服动力问题，我通常就有精力去锻炼。
On the other hand, sometimes I don't have the energy, and then it is important for me to stop, because I can do more damage than good.
另一方面，有时我没有精力，那么停下来对我来说很重要，因为我可能造成的伤害大于好处。
Some days I don't have energy or motivation, and that is just the worst of despair.
有时我没有精力或动力，这就是最糟糕的绝望。
And then some days, magically, I have both.
然后有些日子，神奇的是，我两者兼而有之。
And it is only because I have known the deprivation that the days I have both motivation and energy are such gifts, and I savor those days.
正是因为我知道了这种匮乏，那些我既有动力又有活力的日子才算是一份礼物，我很享受那些日子。
So I think there's a way in which, until we can know loss, we can't know abundance either.
所以我认为有一种方法，在我们知道损失之前，我们也无法知道丰富。
And when we know loss, it takes smaller and smaller things for it to feel abundant, and it sounds a lot like that's what she's describing in many ways.
当我们知道失去时，需要越来越小的事情才能感受到丰富，这听起来很像她在很多方面所描述的那样。
And what's interesting is the degree to which we can use practices like yoga nidra, like other religious or philosophical practices, to teach us to regulate our emotions through shifting our attention.
有趣的是，我们可以在多大程度上使用瑜伽休息术等练习，就像其他宗教或哲学练习一样，来教我们通过转移注意力来调节情绪。
I right now can learn to make this the most enjoyable moment of the whole day, right now.
我现在可以学会让这成为一整天中最愉快的时刻。
But that takes a lot of practice, right?
但这需要大量练习，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
I have learned to do that over time, because otherwise I couldn't get through those periods of fatigue.
随着时间的推移，我学会了这样做，因为否则我就无法度过那些疲劳期。
So I don't know.
所以我不知道。
I think there are ways, again, that we can learn to work with our mind, with our brain, with our body.
我认为，我们可以通过一些方法来学习如何用我们的思想、大脑和身体来工作。
We don't get to pick all the parameters, but we can learn about the parameters to sort of understand how to work with them instead of against them, I think both in terms of the length of our life, the losses and separations we have to endure, and just getting to have this one wild and crazy moment.
我们无法选择所有的参数，但我们可以了解这些参数，以了解如何与它们合作而不是对抗它们，我认为无论是在我们生命的长度、我们必须忍受的损失和分离方面，还是在经历这一狂野而疯狂的时刻方面。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love it.
我喜欢它。
Mary Francis, thank you so much for coming here today and sharing your wisdom and telling us about the incredible work you're doing in your lab.
玛丽·弗朗西斯，非常感谢您今天来到这里，分享您的智慧，并告诉我们您在实验室所做的令人难以置信的工作。
You're not just talking about this stuff, you research this stuff in very controlled studies of humans, and you know the animal literature, and I marvel at your ability to pull from these different sources of scholarship, but also that you're so grounded in the clinical practice, but also in the realities of daily life.
你不只是在谈论这些东西，你在对人类进行严格控制的研究中研究这些东西，你了解动物文献，我对你从这些不同的学术来源中获取知识的能力感到惊讶，而且你如此扎根于临床实践，而且也扎根于日常生活的现实。
Because if things get too scientific or too clinical, they can become a bit detached, and you clearly have all three.
因为如果事情变得过于科学或过于临床，它们可能会变得有点超然，而你显然拥有这三者。
And I also appreciate your willingness to embrace the spiritual side, too.
我也很欣赏你愿意拥抱精神方面的意愿。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because many people think about that-
因为很多人都这么想——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or arrive to these kinds of topics with that in mind.
或者带着这一点来讨论这类话题。
So thank you for the work you're doing in your lab.
感谢您在实验室所做的工作。
Thank you for educating us and I learned so much, and I know everyone else did as well.
感谢您教育我们，我学到了很多，我知道其他人也学到了很多。
Tons of things to put to practice here in the inevitable grief-
在不可避免的悲伤中，有很多事情可以在这里付诸实践——
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that everyone will experience, and hopefully the inevitable reflections that grief also highlights the good parts of life, too.
每个人都会经历的，希望悲伤也不可避免地反映出生活中美好的部分。
So please do come back again and share with us your next steps in the lab.
因此，请再次回来并与我们分享您在实验室中的后续步骤。
Dr. Mary-Frances O'Connor:
玛丽-弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士：
I absolutely will.
我绝对会的。
And Andrew, thank you for bringing the science to people.
安德鲁，谢谢你把科学带给人们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My pleasure.
我很高兴。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Mary Francis O'Connor.
感谢您参加今天与玛丽·弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士的讨论。
To find links to her laboratory's research and to her two excellent books, please see the show note captions.
要查找她的实验室研究和她的两本优秀书籍的链接，请参阅节目注释标题。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的关注按钮来关注播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review, and you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您可以给我们留下五星级的评论，现在您可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客或嘉宾有意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑的主题，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这本书是我花了五年多时间编写的，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验。
And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
它涵盖了从睡眠到运动再到压力控制的所有协议，以及与注意力和动机相关的协议，当然，我为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." And if you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms, so that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab，包括 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。
Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
同样，所有社交媒体平台上都是 Huberman Lab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available completely zero cost.
所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter and enter your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯并输入您的电子邮件即可。
And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Mary Francis O'Connor.
再次感谢您参加今天与玛丽·弗朗西斯·奥康纳博士的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。
Speaker 4:
演讲者4：
"I want to date with rules," Carty says.
“我想按规则约会，”卡蒂说。
"Rules?" Rocko asks.
“规则？”洛可问道。
This is the love story of real Hinge couple Carty and Rocko, written and read by me, Nicola Dinan.
这是真实的 Hinge 夫妇 Carty 和 Rocko 的爱情故事，由我 Nicola Dinan 撰写和阅读。
Listen to the free audiobook now.
立即收听免费有声读物。