Guest Series | Dr. Paul Conti: How to Understand & Assess Your Mental Health
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab Guest Series, where I and an expert guest discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到胡伯曼实验室嘉宾系列，我和一位专家嘉宾讨论了日常生活中的科学和基于科学的工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
Today's episode marks the first in a four-episode series all about mental health.
今天的这一集是有关心理健康的四集系列剧的第一集。
The expert guest for this series is Dr. Paul Conti.
本系列的专家嘉宾是 Paul Conti 博士。
Dr. Paul Conti is a medical doctor and psychiatrist who completed his medical training at Stanford University School of Medicine and then went on to become Chief Resident of Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School.
Paul Conti 博士是一位医生和精神病学家，他在斯坦福大学医学院完成了医学培训，随后成为哈佛医学院精神病学首席住院医师。
He then went on to found the Pacific Premier Group, which is a collection of psychiatrists and therapists who are expert in treating all types of psychiatric disorders and life stressors.
然后，他继续创立了 Pacific Premier Group，该集团由精神病学家和治疗师组成，他们是治疗所有类型精神疾病和生活压力源的专家。
Across the four episodes of this series on mental health, Dr. Conti teaches us about the structure of our own minds and how to think about our own minds as a way to enhance our mental health.
在这个关于心理健康的系列的四集中，孔蒂博士教导我们有关我们自己思想的结构以及如何思考我们自己的思想，以此作为增强我们心理健康的一种方式。
He explains how our subconscious mind and our conscious mind interact to drive our emotions, our decision-making, and our behavior.
他解释了我们的潜意识和意识如何相互作用来驱动我们的情绪、决策和行为。
And while any series about mental health requires that from time to time we discuss personality disorders and psychiatric challenges, the main discussion in today's episode, and in fact all four episodes in this series, are about what it means to be mentally healthy and how to build one's mental health through specific practices, either done alone or with a therapist.
虽然任何有关心理健康的系列都要求我们时不时地讨论人格障碍和精神挑战，但今天这一集的主要讨论，实际上是本系列的所有四集，都是关于心理健康意味着什么，以及如何通过单独或与治疗师一起进行的特定实践来建立一个人的心理健康。
Today's episode addresses several key questions, as well as provides protocols for you to address questions about your own mental health.
今天的节目解决了几个关键问题，并为您提供了解决有关您自己的心理健康问题的方案。
For instance, you will learn what constitutes the most mentally healthy version of yourself.
例如，您将了解什么构成了心理上最健康的自己。
You will learn to assess, and indeed, you will learn protocols for addressing levels of anxiety, levels of your confidence, how to think about your beliefs and internal narratives, how to think about your self-talk, and restructure your self-talk.
你将学会评估，事实上，你将学习解决焦虑水平、自信水平、如何思考你的信念和内部叙述、如何思考你的自言自语以及重组你的自言自语的协议。
We discuss common challenges such as overthinking.
我们讨论常见的挑战，例如过度思考。
We talk about the role of defense mechanisms and other aspects of the conscious and unconscious mind interactions that can lead us toward or away from the healthiest versions of ourselves.
我们讨论防御机制的作用以及有意识和无意识思维互动的其他方面，这些方面可以引导我们走向或远离最健康的自己。
You'll notice that during the first five minutes or so of today's discussion, Dr. Conti describes a framework of what he refers to as the structure of self and the function of self, and he describes several pillars for understanding what those are.
您会注意到，在今天讨论的前五分钟左右，孔蒂博士描述了他所说的自我结构和自我功能的框架，并描述了理解这些框架的几个支柱。
I'd like to highlight that while that short portion of our discussion does bring up a number of terms that are likely to be novel to you, they certainly were novel to me, that as our conversation proceeds, you will really come to appreciate just how simple and yet powerful that framework is.
我想强调的是，虽然我们讨论的那一小部分确实提出了一些可能对您来说很新奇的术语，但它们对我来说确实很新奇，随着我们对话的进行，您将真正体会到该框架是多么简单而强大。
It will help you understand, for instance, the relationship between your conscious mind and your subconscious mind in ways that you can really apply toward enhancing your mental health.
例如，它将帮助您理解意识和潜意识之间的关系，从而真正应用于增强心理健康。
In addition to that, Dr. Conti has generously provided a few PDFs which illustrate that framework for you and that are available completely zero cost by going to the links in the show note captions.
除此之外，Conti 博士还慷慨地提供了一些 PDF，为您说明了该框架，并且可以通过访问显示注释标题中的链接完全零成本地获得这些 PDF。
So you have the option to download those PDFs and to look them over either prior to or during, or perhaps after you listen to these four podcast episodes.
因此，您可以选择下载这些 PDF，并在收听这四集播客之前、期间或之后查看它们。
As a final note before beginning today's discussion, just want to emphasize my sentiment, which I'm confident will soon be your sentiment as well, which is that Dr. Paul Conti shares with us immensely powerful tools for enhancing mental health that, at least to my knowledge, have never been shared publicly before.
作为今天讨论开始之前的最后一点，我想强调一下我的观点，我相信很快也会成为你们的观点，即保罗·孔蒂博士与我们分享了增强心理健康的极其强大的工具，至少据我所知，以前从未公开分享过这些工具。
In fact, as somebody who has done more than three decades of therapy, I've never before been exposed to a conversation about the structure of the mind and the subconscious mind, as well as tools and protocols for enhancing mental health as powerful as these.
事实上，作为一个已经进行了三十多年治疗的人，我以前从未接触过关于心灵和潜意识结构的对话，也从未接触过像这样强大的增强心理健康的工具和方案。
For me, the information was absolutely transformative in terms of reshaping my thought patterns, my emotional patterns, and indeed several of my behavioral patterns.
对我来说，这些信息绝对是变革性的，它重塑了我的思维模式、情感模式，甚至是我的一些行为模式。
And I'm confident that the information that you'll glean from today's episode and throughout the series will be positively transformative for you as well.
我相信，您将从今天的剧集和整个系列中收集到的信息也将为您带来积极的变革。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。
Our first sponsor is BetterHelp.
我们的第一个赞助商是 BetterHelp。
BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out online.
BetterHelp 提供由持证治疗师在线进行的专业治疗。
I personally have been doing weekly therapy for more than 30 years, and while that weekly therapy was initiated not by my own request, it was in fact a requirement for me to remain in high school, over time, I really came to appreciate just how valuable doing quality therapy is.
我个人每周进行治疗已经有30多年了，虽然每周治疗不是由我自己要求发起的，但这实际上是我留在高中的要求，随着时间的推移，我真的开始意识到进行高质量治疗是多么有价值。
In fact, I look at doing quality therapy much in the same way that I look at going to the gym or doing cardiovascular training, such as running, as ways to enhance my physical health.
事实上，我看待高质量治疗的方式与我看待去健身房或进行心血管训练（例如跑步）的方式大致相同，都是为了增强我的身体健康。
I see therapy as a vital way to enhance one's mental health.
我认为治疗是增强心理健康的重要方法。
The beauty of BetterHelp is that they make it very easy to find an excellent therapist.
BetterHelp 的美妙之处在于，它们让您可以轻松找到优秀的治疗师。
An excellent therapist can be defined as somebody who is going to be very supportive of you in an objective way, with whom you have excellent rapport with, and who can help you arrive at key insights that you wouldn't have otherwise been able to find.
一个优秀的治疗师可以被定义为一个会以客观的方式非常支持你的人，与你有很好的融洽关系，并且能够帮助你获得你原本无法找到的关键见解。
And because BetterHelp therapy is conducted entirely online, it's extremely convenient and easy to incorporate into the rest of your life.
由于 BetterHelp 治疗完全在线进行，因此非常方便且易于融入您的余生。
So if you're interested in BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month.
因此，如果您对 BetterHelp 感兴趣，请访问 betterhelp.com/huberman，第一个月可享受 10% 的折扣。
That's BetterHelp, spelled H-E-L-P, .com/huberman.
这就是 BetterHelp，拼写为 H-E-L-P，.com/huberman。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Waking Up.
今天的节目也是由Wakeing Up为我们带来的。
Waking Up is a meditation app that offers dozens of guided meditation sessions, mindfulness trainings, yoga nidra sessions, and more.
Waking Up 是一款冥想应用程序，提供数十个引导冥想课程、正念训练、瑜伽休息课程等。
By now, there's an abundance of data showing that even short daily meditations can greatly improve our mood, reduce anxiety, improve our ability to focus, and can improve our memory.
到目前为止，有大量数据表明，即使是每天短暂的冥想也可以极大地改善我们的情绪，减少焦虑，提高我们的注意力，并可以提高我们的记忆力。
And while there are many different forms of meditation, most people find it difficult to find and stick to a meditation practice in a way that is most beneficial for them.
虽然冥想有许多不同的形式，但大多数人发现很难找到并坚持对他们最有益的冥想练习。
The Waking Up app makes it extremely easy to learn how to meditate and to carry out your daily meditation practice In a way that's going to be most effective and efficient for you.
唤醒应用程序使学习如何冥想以及以对您来说最有效和高效的方式进行日常冥想练习变得非常容易。
It includes a variety of different types of meditations of different duration, as well as things like Yoga Nidra, which place the brain and body into a sort of pseudo-sleep that allows you to emerge feeling incredibly mentally refreshed.
它包括各种不同类型、不同持续时间的冥想，以及瑜伽休息术（Yoga Nidra）等，它能让大脑和身体进入一种假睡眠状态，让你在醒来时感觉精神焕发。
In fact, the science around Yoga Nidra is really impressive, showing that after a Yoga Nidra session, levels of dopamine in certain areas of the brain are enhanced by up to 60%, which places the brain and body into a state of enhanced readiness for mental work and for physical work.
事实上，有关瑜伽休息术的科学确实令人印象深刻，它表明，在瑜伽休息术课程之后，大脑某些区域的多巴胺水平提高了 60%，这使大脑和身体处于一种为脑力工作和体力工作做好准备的状态。
Another thing I really like about the Waking Up app is that it provides a 30-day introduction course.
我真正喜欢 Waking Up 应用程序的另一件事是它提供了 30 天的入门课程。
So for those of you that have not meditated before or are getting back to a meditation practice, that's fantastic.
因此，对于那些以前没有冥想过或正在重新进行冥想练习的人来说，这真是太棒了。
Or if you're somebody who's already a skilled and regular meditator, Waking Up has more advanced meditations and Yoga Nidra sessions for you as well.
或者，如果您已经是一名熟练且定期的冥想者，Wake Up 也为您提供更高级的冥想和瑜伽休息课程。
If you'd like to try the Waking Up app, you can go to wakingup.com/huberman and access a free 30-day trial.
如果您想尝试 Waking Up 应用程序，可以访问 wakingup.com/huberman 并获得 30 天的免费试用。
Again, that's wakingup.com/huberman.
再说一遍，那就是 wakingup.com/huberman。
And now for my discussion about how to understand and assess your level of mental health with Dr. Paul Conti.
现在我与 Paul Conti 博士讨论如何理解和评估您的心理健康水平。
Dr. Paul Conti, welcome.
保罗·孔蒂博士，欢迎光临。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm very excited for today's episode and for this series because I, like so many other people out there, have a lot of questions about myself and themselves.
我对今天的节目和这个系列感到非常兴奋，因为我和许多其他人一样，对我自己和他们自己有很多疑问。
And not just about ourselves, but how the different personality types out there, the healthy types, the narcissists, all the things that we hear about these days, gaslighting, all these sorts of things, what all of that really is.
不仅仅是我们自己，还有不同的性格类型，健康的类型，自恋者，我们现在听到的所有事情，煤气灯，所有这些事情，所有这些到底是什么。
Perhaps we can dispel some of the myths that exist during the course of this series.
也许我们可以消除本系列中存在的一些神话。
I'm sure we will.
我相信我们会的。
I'm sure you will.
我相信你会的。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And also raise certain important questions that we should all ask ourselves in terms of trying to understand who we are and how we can be the best versions of ourselves, how we can experience the most happiness, also the most richness in life.
并且还提出了一些重要的问题，我们都应该问自己，试图了解我们是谁，我们如何才能成为最好的自己，我们如何才能体验到生活中最大的幸福和最丰富的生活。
Because of course, life isn't just all about being happy.
因为当然，生活不仅仅只是快乐。
So to start off this question, I want to raise a parallel with something I think for most people is more concrete, which is physical health.
因此，为了开始这个问题，我想提出一个与我认为对大多数人来说更具体的事情的相似之处，那就是身体健康。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
While there isn't an ideal physical self that's been defined by the medical community, we know, for instance, that there is a range of blood pressures that are considered healthy.
虽然医学界没有定义理想的身体自我，但我们知道，例如，有一定范围的血压被认为是健康的。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There is a range of body mass index that's considered healthy, although that's a little controversial because it depends on how much muscle, how lean people are, et cetera.
有一个体重指数被认为是健康的，尽管这有点争议，因为它取决于肌肉的数量、人的瘦削程度等等。
But, I think it's reasonable to say that the healthy individual is not going to get exhausted walking up a flight of stairs, that they could bend down and lift an object without hurting themselves.
但是，我认为可以合理地说，健康的人爬一段楼梯不会感到疲惫，他们可以弯腰举起物体而不会伤害自己。
They might even have some additional strength or endurance, et cetera.
他们甚至可能有一些额外的力量或耐力等等。
Within the physical health domain, all of that is fairly well scripted, and there are protocols that people can follow to improve their physical health.
在身体健康领域，所有这些都有相当好的脚本，人们可以遵循一些协议来改善他们的身体健康。
We've covered many of them on this podcast before.
我们之前已经在此播客中介绍过其中的许多内容。
When it comes to mental health and it comes to concepts of the self, things become much more abstract for people.
当谈到心理健康和自我概念时，事情对人们来说变得更加抽象。
In fact, I think most people, including myself, are kind of wandering around in the dark wondering whether or not we are the best versions of ourselves, whether or not we're thinking about ourselves and the world around us in the best ways.
事实上，我认为大多数人，包括我自己，都在黑暗中徘徊，想知道我们是否是最好的自己，是否以最好的方式思考自己和周围的世界。
So to start things off, could you tell us what is the healthy version of self?
首先，您能告诉我们什么是健康的自我吗？
I mean, what should we all be aspiring to?
我的意思是，我们都应该追求什么？
You've worked with people who presumably are healthy and people who have severe pathologies of different psychiatric types, bipolar, narcissistic, sociopathic, and everything in between.
你接触过的人可能是健康的，也有患有不同精神类型的严重病症的人，躁郁症、自恋者、反社会者以及介于两者之间的各种类型。
So for me and for the listeners, what is a healthy self?
那么对于我和听众来说，什么是健康的自己？
What should we be striving for?
我们应该努力追求什么？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Well, a healthy self approaches life through the lens of agency and gratitude.
嗯，健康的自我通过代理和感恩的视角来对待生活。
If you look at happy people, people who like their lives, no matter what stage of life they're at, no matter what their socioeconomic status is, race, religion.
如果你看看快乐的人，喜欢自己生活的人，无论他们处于人生的哪个阶段，无论他们的社会经济地位、种族、宗教信仰如何。
There's so many things that we think matters, and they matter to a lot of things.
我们认为有很多事情很重要，而且它们对很多事情都很重要。
Do they matter to is someone happy or not?
它们对某人幸福与否重要吗？
They are not factors.
它们不是因素。
The factors that tell us, is this person enjoying life?
这些因素告诉我们，这个人是否享受生活？
Are they going to take care of themselves?
他们会照顾自己吗？
Are they happy they're here?
他们在这里高兴吗？
Are they engaged productively in the world?
他们是否富有成效地参与世界？
Is agency and gratitude.
是代理和感恩。
And if we have those two things, then it's interesting.
如果我们有这两件事，那就很有趣了。
You almost never see someone go wrong.
你几乎永远不会看到有人出错。
And even if there are difficulties, even if things happen in life that can make some unhappiness, it doesn't take away the person's engagement in life, the person's enthusiasm for life.
即使有困难，即使生活中发生了一些令人不快的事情，也不会夺走一个人对生活的投入，一个人对生活的热情。
And I think if you look at even traditions of understanding, how are people happy, whether it's in psychiatry or it's through literature or through a religious lens, it is always people who approach life through the lens of agency and gratitude.
我认为，如果你看看理解的传统，人们如何幸福，无论是在精神病学中，还是通过文学或通过宗教镜头，总是人们通过代理和感恩的镜头来对待生活。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could we go a little bit deeper on agency and gratitude?
我们可以更深入地探讨代理和感恩吗？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When I hear the words agency and gratitude, I think agency and ability to affect the world around me in the ways that I want, and I think gratitude, being thankful.
当我听到“代理”和“感激”这两个词时，我想到的是代理和以我想要的方式影响我周围的世界的能力，我想到的是感激，心存感激。
And we did an entire episode all about gratitude practices and some of the neuroscience and neuroimaging and neurochemical changes that occur in the brain and body when people exert a gratitude practice.
我们做了一整集关于感恩实践以及人们进行感恩实践时大脑和身体中发生的一些神经科学、神经影像学和神经化学变化的内容。
But I have a feeling that when you talk about agency and gratitude, you might be talking about something slightly or maybe even quite a bit different than the way that I'm defining it.
但我有一种感觉，当你谈论代理和感恩时，你所谈论的可能与我定义它的方式略有不同，甚至可能有很大不同。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I would say agency and gratitude are these amazing rewards that sit on top of the highly complex brain function inside of us and the highly complex psychology in all of us.
我想说，代理和感恩是这些令人惊奇的奖励，它们位于我们内部高度复杂的大脑功能和我们所有人高度复杂的心理之上。
So if we think about a self, that I identify a self.
所以如果我们思考一个自我，我就会识别出一个自我。
I'm an I.
我是一个我
If I'm going to approach the world with agency and gratitude, that's sitting on top of a lot of healthy things.
如果我要以代理和感恩的态度来对待这个世界，那就是在许多健康的事情之上。
And the idea that, okay, there are ways in which we can be mentally unhealthy.
还有这样的想法：好吧，我们在某些方面可能会精神不健康。
But to start with what is going on inside of us and what does it look like when we're healthy?
但首先我们要先了解一下我们体内发生了什么，以及当我们健康时它会是什么样子？
So there's a structure of the self.
所以有一个自我的结构。
There's function of the self, and if we look at the structure and the function and the parts, the components of structure and function, we can come to understand, okay, what is going on in us?
有自我的功能，如果我们看看结构和功能以及结构和功能的组成部分，我们就能明白，好吧，我们身上发生了什么？
What might we change for the better?
我们可以改变什么变得更好？
How do we build empowerment?
我们如何建立赋权？
Because empowerment is the ability to navigate the world around us and to bring myself to bear in ways that are effective.
因为赋权是驾驭我们周围的世界并让自己以有效的方式承担责任的能力。
And from empowerment arises the sense of agency.
授权感会产生代理感。
I have agency because I am empowered.
我有代理权，因为我有权力。
And also from a healthy structure of self and function of self, we end up with humility.
而且，从健康的自我结构和自我功能中，我们最终会变得谦卑。
We come through that with a sense of our place in the world and our power in the world to navigate as we choose, but also a sense of the world around us that's far more complicated than just we are.
我们经历了这一切，感受到了我们在世界上的地位，以及我们在世界上按照自己的选择航行的力量，但也感受到了我们周围的世界远比我们复杂得多。
Extends beyond us to other people, to the climate around us, to the health of the whole planet.
超越我们，延伸到其他人、我们周围的气候、整个地球的健康。
We feel a sense of humility that I'm here, and I can do good things.
我们感到谦卑，因为我在这里，我可以做善事。
I'm fortunate to be here, and I'm part of this bigger ecosystem all the way up to the scale of the ecosystem of Earth.
我很幸运能够来到这里，我是这个更大的生态系统的一部分，一直到地球生态系统的规模。
And if we feel that humility, then we approach the world through the lens of gratitude.
如果我们感受到谦卑，那么我们就会通过感恩的眼光来看待世界。
So the idea that a healthy structure of self and a healthy function of self leads to empowerment and humility, then upon that, we are sort of imbued with agency and gratitude, and that leads us forth to happy lives.
因此，健康的自我结构和健康的自我功能会带来赋权和谦逊，然后，我们就会充满力量和感激之情，这会引导我们走向幸福的生活。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so it's clear to me why having agency and gratitude would be wonderful, perhaps even the goal state that we should all be seeking to achieve.
好吧，我很清楚为什么拥有代理和感激之情会很棒，甚至可能是我们都应该寻求实现的目标状态。
And it also makes sense to me as to why empowerment and humility are important components that feed into our ability to have agency and gratitude.
对我来说，为什么赋权和谦逊是增强我们的代理能力和感恩能力的重要组成部分，这也是有道理的。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because all of that, at least to my mind, sums to a very clear statement about having agency and gratitude is the best way to approach life.
因为所有这些，至少在我看来，概括起来就是一个非常明确的声明，即拥有代理权和感恩是对待生活的最佳方式。
That all makes perfect sense to me, and yet I've never really thought about it that way, and I think most people haven't ever been told this.
这一切对我来说都是完全有道理的，但我从来没有真正这样想过，而且我想大多数人都没有被告知过这一点。
What should we be seeking?
我们应该寻求什么？
Agency and gratitude.
代理和感恩。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We've heard endless number of podcasts, including this podcast, about physical health.
我们听过无数关于身体健康的播客，包括这个播客。
And we've been told by physicians and everybody else that we should seek to have a relatively low blood pressure, or we should seek to have a relatively low heart rate, that our cholesterol should be at a certain level, et cetera.
医生和其他人都告诉我们，我们应该寻求相对较低的血压，或者我们应该寻求相对较低的心率，我们的胆固醇应该处于一定水平，等等。
So within the physical health domain, there are strong, clear messages about what we should all be striving toward.
因此，在身体健康领域，有关于我们都应该努力实现的目标的强烈而明确的信息。
And in a similar way to how we're discussing the self in psychology, I don't think anyone seeks to have low blood pressure or low heart rate because that's what they want, per se.
与我们在心理学中讨论自我的方式类似，我认为没有人会寻求低血压或低心率，因为这本身就是他们想要的。
They want those things along with some capacity for endurance, the ability to lift an object, so some strength, et cetera, because of the way that those metrics of health allow them to move through the world in the best possible way.
他们想要这些东西以及一些耐力、举起物体的能力、一些力量等等，因为这些健康指标可以让他们以最好的方式在世界上行走。
In other words, having some degree of endurance allows you to walk down the block maybe a lot further, or to walk up several flights of stairs, or to have some strength allows you to pick up objects and effectively move through life.
换句话说，拥有一定程度的耐力可以让你沿着街区走得更远，或者爬上几层楼梯，或者拥有一定的力量可以让你捡起物体并有效地度过生活。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're telling us that having a sense of agency and gratitude, and that agency and gratitude are undergirded by empowerment and humility, and that's the best way to move through life, the most effective, happiest, if you will, way to move through life.
你告诉我们，要有一种能动性和感激之情，而这种能动性和感激之情是由赋权和谦逊所支撑的，这是生活的最佳方式，如果你愿意的话，这是生活中最有效、最快乐的方式。
Well, then, I think we have to ask ourselves the same thing we would ask about physical fitness, which is: what goes into creating a sense of agency and gratitude, empowerment, and humility?
好吧，那么，我认为我们必须问自己和我们问身体健康同样的问题，那就是：如何创造一种代理感、感恩感、赋权感和谦逊感？
What are the action steps?
行动步骤是什么？
Because if I want more endurance, I know to get on an exercise bike or a treadmill or go out for a run a few times a week or more.
因为如果我想要更强的耐力，我知道每周或更多地骑健身车或跑步机或出去跑步几次。
If I want to get stronger, I'm going to lift objects that are difficult to lift until they're easier to lift.
如果我想变得更强壮，我就会举起难以举起的物体，直到它们变得更容易举起为止。
It's all pretty straightforward in the physical domain, but in the mental health domain, in the psychological domain, it does become a bit more abstract, I think, in part because no one's ever told us.
在物理领域，这一切都非常简单，但在心理健康领域，在心理领域，它确实变得更加抽象，我认为，部分原因是没有人告诉我们。
Certainly, no one's ever told me.
当然，从来没有人告诉过我。
What you really need is agency and gratitude in order to have the best possible life.
为了拥有最好的生活，你真正需要的是代理和感恩。
So I very much appreciate that you're telling us this, and I'd love for you to tell us what are the action steps that go into creating these things that we're calling agency, gratitude, empowerment, and humility?
所以我非常感谢你告诉我们这一点，我很乐意你告诉我们创造这些我们称之为代理、感恩、赋权和谦逊的东西的行动步骤是什么？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
There's actually quite a strong parallel between the physical health dimension and the mental health dimension.
实际上，身体健康维度和心理健康维度之间存在很强的相似性。
So as you're saying, why do you put in the time, the energy, the learning to be physically healthy?
正如你所说，你为什么要投入时间、精力和学习来保持身体健康？
It's a lot of effort, and we put so much of ourselves towards it if we decide that we value that.
这是一个很大的努力，如果我们决定重视它，我们就会付出很多努力。
Why do we do it?
我们为什么这样做？
Because, as you said, it's the best way to approach life.
因为，正如你所说，这是对待生活的最好方式。
There may be something that I want to do.
也许有一些我想做的事情。
I want to run a race.
我想参加一场比赛。
Or I want to climb a mountain.
或者我想爬山。
But ultimately, we take care of ourselves physically because we don't know what's coming next in life, and we want to be prepared for it, good, bad, and otherwise.
但最终，我们会照顾好自己的身体，因为我们不知道生活中接下来会发生什么，我们希望为此做好准备，无论是好的、坏的还是其他的。
And the same thing is true of mental health.
心理健康也是如此。
So I can feel grateful for something.
所以我可以对某事感到感激。
I can feel grateful that I'm still breathing right now.
我很感激我现在还有呼吸。
I can exercise agency.
我可以行使代理权。
I can pick up that cup and take a drink.
我可以拿起那个杯子喝一杯。
But that doesn't mean that I'm living life through the lens of agency and gratitude, which is consistent with every opinion.
但这并不意味着我是通过代理和感恩的视角来生活的，这与每个观点都是一致的。
If you look psychologically through the lens of literature, through the lens of sociology and psychology, agency and gratitude make happiness.
如果你通过文学、社会学和心理学的视角来观察心理学，能动性和感恩就会带来幸福。
They're ways of approaching life.
它们是接近生活的方式。
And just like physical health is undergirded by cardiovascular health, heart health, muscle strength, there's an undergirding of agency and gratitude, and empowerment and humility are ways of describing, okay, what arises from understanding ourselves, taking care of ourselves, that then gives us the agency and gratitude.
就像心血管健康、心脏健康、肌肉力量是身体健康的基础一样，代理和感恩是身体健康的基础，赋权和谦逊是描述理解自己、照顾自己所产生的方式，然后赋予我们代理和感恩。
So we have empowerment, we have humility, but where does it all come from?
所以我们有权力，我们有谦卑，但这一切从何而来？
So just like we have to understand the physical body and what to do to it in order to be healthy, we also have to understand the mind, the self that wants to be healthier.
因此，就像我们必须了解身体以及如何对待它才能保持健康一样，我们也必须了解思想，即想要变得更健康的自我。
And that comes through understanding the structure of the self.
这是通过理解自我的结构来实现的。
And we have enough science through the lens of neurobiology and psychiatry to understand the structure of self and then the function of self.
通过神经生物学和精神病学的镜头，我们有足够的科学知识来理解自我的结构以及自我的功能。
It's how we work, how we interface with the world.
这就是我们的工作方式，我们与世界互动的方式。
So it's actually not More complicated than physical health.
所以它实际上并不比身体健康更复杂。
It's just that we don't spell it out that way.
只是我们不这么拼写。
We come at it through the lens of pathology, of what's wrong and who has some diagnosis, and we're looking for the problematic instead of saying, like, "What do we look like when we're happy?" And then going and digging down into the mechanics of it all.
我们从病理学的角度来看待这个问题，从哪里出了问题以及谁有一些诊断，我们正在寻找问题所在，而不是说，“当我们快乐时，我们看起来是什么样子？”然后深入挖掘这一切的机制。
And if we're not in that state, to go and look at that and to make changes, just as if you were very, very physically healthy.
如果我们不处于那种状态，那就去看看并做出改变，就像你的身体非常非常健康一样。
But your heart rate couldn't go up that much without you feeling very, very fatigued.
但如果你不感到非常非常疲劳，你的心率就不可能上升那么多。
We'd say, "Well, look, you're doing a lot of the right things, but let's work more on your heart." We would go look at the specifics of it because that's how we understand it, and we just don't apply the same science, logic, common sense to mental health as we do to physical health.
我们会说：“好吧，看，你做了很多正确的事情，但让我们更多地关注你的内心。”我们会去看看它的细节，因为这就是我们理解它的方式，我们只是没有像对待身体健康那样将同样的科学、逻辑和常识应用于心理健康。
But it's time for that to change because we have the knowledge and ability to do just that.
但现在是改变这种情况的时候了，因为我们有知识和能力做到这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
When we had Dr. Andy Galpin on this podcast to do a series on physical health and fitness, essentially, he said something that really stuck with me, which was that the number of different workouts that people can do out there, bodyweight workouts, work with weights, with machines.
当安迪·加尔平博士在这个播客上做一系列关于身体健康和健身的节目时，他说了一些让我印象深刻的话，那就是人们可以进行多种不同的锻炼，自重锻炼、举重锻炼和机器锻炼。
You can run far, you can run shorter distances more quickly, you can do planks, sit-ups.
你可以跑得更远，你可以跑得更短，跑得更快，你可以做平板支撑、仰卧起坐。
So many variations on exercise routines.
锻炼习惯有很多变化。
But what he very clearly stated was that there are only a few core adaptations that the body can undergo that lead to these byproducts that we call lower blood pressure, enhanced endurance-
但他非常明确地指出，身体只能经历一些核心适应，从而产生我们所说的降低血压、增强耐力的副产品——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
improved strength, improved neuromuscular function, improved brain function, for that matter.
就这一点而言，提高力量、改善神经肌肉功能、改善大脑功能。
It sounds to me like there are a lot of parallels in creating the healthy psychological self.
在我看来，创造健康的心理自我有很多相似之处。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what are the core components that I and others should think about in terms of understanding, I think you described them as the structure of the self and the functions of the self?
那么我和其他人在理解方面应该思考的核心组成部分是什么，我认为你将它们描述为自我的结构和自我的功能？
Again, just to draw a parallel, if we were talking about physical health, we'd say, okay, there's connections between nerves and muscle that allows us to move our limbs.
再次打个比方，如果我们谈论身体健康，我们会说，好吧，神经和肌肉之间存在联系，使我们能够移动四肢。
If you apply a certain amount of resistance, you get a certain adaptation, which is the neuromuscular connection gets stronger, the muscle might get bigger or just stronger, et cetera.
如果你施加一定量的阻力，你就会得到一定的适应，即神经肌肉连接变得更强，肌肉可能会变得更大或更强，等等。
Flexibility, you just push your range of motion just a little bit into discomfort.
灵活性，你只需将你的运动范围稍微推到不舒服的程度即可。
It so happens to be the case that you do that for just a couple of minutes each day.
碰巧你每天只这样做几分钟。
Over the course of about a week or so, you get a significant increase in flexibility.
经过大约一周左右的时间，您的灵活性将显着提高。
Okay, so it's all very clear in the physical domain.
好的，物理领域的一切都非常清楚了。
In the psychological domain, I hear you telling us that the action steps that we all should be taking in order to be the happiest version of ourselves by achieving agency and gratitude, is to explore the structure of self and the function of self.
在心理学领域，我听到你告诉我们，为了通过实现代理和感恩而成为最幸福的自己，我们应该采取的行动步骤是探索自我的结构和自我的功能。
So if you could tell us about what is the structure of self?
那么您能否告诉我们自我的结构是什么？
Like, what goes into Andrew being Andrew, and Paul being Paul, and whoever the listener is into being who they are?
比如，是什么让安德鲁成为安德鲁，保罗成为保罗，以及无论听众是谁，他们是谁？
What is that, and what is the function of self?
那是什么？自我的功能是什么？
How does a psychiatrist think about that?
精神科医生如何看待这个问题？
How should we think about that?
我们应该如何思考这个问题？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Okay.
好的。
If I could start maybe to set the stage for that by pointing out that as we go up the hierarchy of health, everything should get simpler, not more complicated.
如果我可以开始为这一点奠定基础，指出随着我们在健康层次上的提升，一切都应该变得更简单，而不是更复杂。
If you think about physical health, there's so much complexity on the initial levels.
如果您考虑身体健康，就会发现初始水平非常复杂。
So we think about your physical health status versus mine.
因此，我们会考虑您与我的身体健康状况。
It's going to be different.
情况将会有所不同。
We're going to have different cardiac function and muscle function and pulmonary function, and if we're going to be healthy, we could do a lot of different things.
我们将拥有不同的心脏功能、肌肉功能和肺功能，如果我们要健康，我们可以做很多不同的事情。
There might be a whole set of choices that would work well for you, different choices that would work for me, and we can gauge intensity, timing, frequency.
可能有一整套适合你的选择，也可能有适合我的不同选择，我们可以衡量强度、时间安排和频率。
It's very complicated when we're on the lower levels of the hierarchy.
当我们处于层次结构的较低级别时，情况非常复杂。
As we get higher up, let's say you and I both do the right things, then what happens?
当我们变得更高时，假设你和我都做了正确的事情，那么会发生什么？
We both have endurance.
我们俩都有忍耐力。
We both have some strength.
我们俩都有一定的实力。
We're both robust.
我们俩都很坚强。
Things are getting simpler because we're approaching the unique idiosyncrasies in all of us, and we have to look at that and look at that in a very specific way.
事情变得越来越简单，因为我们正在接近我们所有人的独特特质，我们必须以一种非常具体的方式来看待它。
But what we're trying to get to is something that's common for all of us.
但我们正在努力实现的目标是我们所有人共同的目标。
So stamina, for example, in physical health, and endurance.
耐力，例如身体健康和耐力。
And agency and gratitude in mental health.
以及心理健康方面的代理和感恩。
So then if we go and we look at the structure of the self and the function of self, we find that there's more complexity, but that it is also understandable.
那么如果我们去观察自我的结构和自我的功能，我们会发现更加复杂，但也是可以理解的。
There's tremendous complexity in the body, just as there's tremendous complexity in the mind, and we can understand what is the structure of self, what is the function of self, and we can look at that and assess that in the same way we would physical health parameters so that we arrive at the place we want to be, be it endurance or agency or gratitude.
身体有巨大的复杂性，就像心灵有巨大的复杂性一样，我们可以理解自我的结构是什么，自我的功能是什么，我们可以像对待身体健康参数一样看待和评估它，以便我们到达我们想要的地方，无论是耐力、能动性还是感恩。
So structure of self.
所以自我的结构。
We all have an unconscious mind.
我们都有一个无意识的头脑。
And we pay so little attention to this part of us that really is the biological supercomputer.
我们很少关注我们这真正是生物超级计算机的部分。
So millions of things are going on all the time, like in every split second.
因此，数以百万计的事情一直在发生，就像每一瞬间一样。
So for example, I can say these words.
例如，我可以说这些话。
You can listen to the words, and you can say things back, and I can listen.
你可以听，你可以反驳，我也可以听。
There are millions and millions of things going on under the surface, much of which comes from either biological predispositions or habits over time.
表面之下正在发生数以百万计的事情，其中大部分来自生物倾向或随着时间的推移而形成的习惯。
Thought processes, patterns.
思维过程、模式。
So this unconscious mind, this supercomputer, is doing all of these things at the speed of light.
所以这个无意识的头脑，这个超级计算机，正在以光速做所有这些事情。
There are electrical and chemical signals and multiple pathways as complicated as super highway systems that then get consolidated and communicate with others.
有电子和化学信号以及像高速公路系统一样复杂的多种路径，然后它们被整合并与其他系统进行通信。
And then what comes up from all of that is the conscious mind.
然后所有这一切产生的就是有意识的头脑。
So imagine an iceberg, and it's a really, really big iceberg.
想象一下一座冰山，它是一座非常非常大的冰山。
And we see the part above the surface.
我们看到了表面以上的部分。
That's the conscious mind.
这就是有意识的头脑。
But there's a huge part of this iceberg, maybe 95% of it, that's underneath the water.
但这座冰山的很大一部分，也许是 95%，都在水下。
There's this hulking mass that we don't see.
有一个我们看不到的巨大物体。
That's the unconscious mind.
这就是无意识的头脑。
And it's feeding up to the conscious mind, which is a much smaller part of our brain function.
它正在为意识提供食物，而意识在我们的大脑功能中只占很小的一部分。
But it's the part that we're aware of.
但这是我们所知道的部分。
It's sitting on top of all the unconscious things, which are extremely important, but then we become aware so that we can engage in the real world.
它位于所有无意识事物之上，这是极其重要的，但随后我们就会变得有意识，以便我们能够参与现实世界。
In order for us to have this conversation, the millions of things per second have to be going on underneath the surface so that you and I, as conscious I's, as conscious selves, can ride along on top of it.
为了让我们能够进行这样的对话，每秒必须有数以百万计的事情在表面之下发生，这样你和我，作为有意识的我，作为有意识的自我，才能在它之上行驶。
So that's the part of the iceberg that's above the water.
这就是冰山露出水面的部分。
It's the conscious self.
这是有意识的自我。
Then imagine that the conscious self is girded by a set of long tendrils that come out from under the water.
然后想象一下，有意识的自我被一组从水下伸出的长卷须所包围。
That they're defense mechanisms that are unconscious to us, that sort of gird the conscious mind.
它们是我们无意识的防御机制，可以束缚我们的意识。
So do we rationalize automatically?
那么我们会自动合理化吗？
Do we avoid automatically?
我们会自动回避吗？
Do we act out automatically?
我们会自动采取行动吗？
Are these things in us in ways that we can observe and change, but that are there to try and protect the conscious mind from the slings and arrows of the world around us?
我们体内的这些东西是不是可以观察和改变，但它们的存在是为了保护我们的意识免受周围世界的攻击？
So if you imagine there's the big part of the iceberg under the water, the unconscious mind.
所以，如果你想象冰山的很大一部分在水下，那就是无意识的心灵。
The conscious mind is riding on top of it, but the conscious mind, that part sticking out of the water, is vulnerable.
有意识的头脑骑在它上面，但是有意识的头脑，即伸出水面的部分，是脆弱的。
So imagine that there's a defensive structure then that arises from the part of the iceberg that's underwater that is there to defend and protect the conscious mind.
因此，想象一下，冰山水下部分产生了一个防御结构，用于保卫和保护意识思维。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So when you say to defend and protect, when you say that the conscious mind is vulnerable, what do you mean?
因此，当你说捍卫和保护时，当你说意识心智脆弱时，你的意思是什么？
Do you mean that it's vulnerable to physical attack or that it's vulnerable to us realizing that we're just a bunch of neurons that are clicking away underneath?
你的意思是它很容易受到物理攻击，还是很容易让我们意识到我们只是一堆在下面点击的神经元？
In other words, where does the vulnerability of the conscious mind really reside?
换句话说，意识的脆弱性到底在哪里？
Not physically where does it reside, but what am I so worried about in terms of my safety?
不是它实际所在的位置，而是我为何如此担心自己的安全？
Right now we're in a room, I feel pretty safe.
现在我们在一个房间里，我感觉很安全。
I don't think you're going to attack me verbally or physically.
我认为你不会对我进行言语或身体攻击。
I suppose it's possible that could happen, but it seems like a very distant possibility.
我认为这是有可能发生的，但这似乎是一种非常遥远的可能性。
So when you say that these defenses are there to protect us from some sort of awareness, what awareness are we trying to avoid?
那么，当你说这些防御措施是为了保护我们免受某种意识的侵害时，我们试图避免什么意识呢？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
So the vulnerability of the conscious mind is to fear, confusion, despair.
因此，意识的脆弱性在于恐惧、困惑、绝望。
There's so many things that we can fear.
我们可以害怕的事情太多了。
Some people are afraid of snakes or spiders.
有些人害怕蛇或蜘蛛。
Some people are afraid of death.
有些人害怕死亡。
Some people are afraid of health issues that could come to them or to people they love.
有些人担心他们或他们所爱的人可能会出现健康问题。
We can get confused and not know what decisions to make and how to navigate the world and how to be who we want to be to ourselves and to others.
我们可能会感到困惑，不知道该做出什么决定，如何驾驭世界，以及如何成为自己和他人想要成为的人。
We can feel tremendously vulnerable and despairing if we lose others or we start to see things happening in the world around us that we don't like.
如果我们失去了他人，或者我们开始看到周围的世界发生了我们不喜欢的事情，我们会感到非常脆弱和绝望。
We start to feel like, "What will happen to the planet we live on?
我们开始想，“我们居住的星球会发生什么？
Will there be war where I live?
我住的地方会发生战争吗？
Will my children be safe?" There's so much that we need to protect ourselves against.
我的孩子们会安全吗？”我们需要保护自己免受很多伤害。
So that vulnerable part of us, the part of the iceberg sticking out above the water, needs a defensive structure around it to protect it against the vulnerability of fear, confusion, despair.
因此，我们脆弱的部分，冰山伸出水面的部分，需要在它周围有一个防御结构，以保护它免受恐惧、困惑和绝望的脆弱。
And because the conscious mind is sticking out of the water with a defensive structure around it, it is the raw material from which we create our character structure.
因为意识心伸出水面，周围有防御结构，所以它是我们创造性格结构的原材料。
So the character structure is all of that.
所以角色结构就是全部。
The part under the water, the part above the water, the defensive structure.
水下部分、水面部分、防御结构。
So imagine a nest around all of that, and that's the character structure that we utilize to interface with the world.
因此，想象一下围绕所有这些的一个巢，这就是我们用来与世界交互的角色结构。
So the character structure is the thing that I'm using.
所以角色结构就是我正在使用的东西。
It's like if you're driving somewhere in a car.
这就像你正在开车去某个地方一样。
The car is the thing that you're using to go there.
汽车是你去那里所用的东西。
The character structure is the thing that we're using to interface with the world.
角色结构是我们用来与世界互动的东西。
So, for example, how trusting am I versus suspicious?
那么，举例来说，我的信任程度与怀疑程度如何？
How readily do I come to make friends with people?
我有多容易与人交朋友？
How much do I act out if I'm frustrated?
如果我感到沮丧，我会采取什么行动？
How much do I exclaim something negative, as opposed to holding it inside of me?
我有多少会大声喊出一些消极的东西，而不是把它藏在心里？
How much do I rationalize?
我要合理化多少？
If something isn't going well, do I want to look at it and maybe see that it is so that I don't have to face it?
如果事情进展不顺利，我是否想看看它，也许发现它，这样我就不必面对它？
How much do I avoid problems in the world around me?
我在多大程度上避免了周围世界的问题？
How much do I exercise altruism?
我在多大程度上表现出利他主义？
These are all the ways in which we're engaging with the world around us, and this determines the self.
这些都是我们与周围世界互动的方式，而这决定了自我。
Imagine that the self then grows out of this nest from the character structure that we use to interface with the world and the decisions that we make.
想象一下，自我从我们用来与世界互动和做出决定的性格结构的巢穴中生长出来。
So if our character structure is the thing through which we engage with the world, then we're enacting what is inside of us, what we've determined through our unconscious mind, our conscious mind, our defense mechanism.
因此，如果我们的性格结构是我们与世界接触的东西，那么我们就是在演绎我们内心的东西，我们通过无意识思维、意识思维和防御机制所决定的东西。
There's a certain us that then comes at the world in a certain way.
某个特定的我们会以特定的方式来到这个世界。
And if we're more or less trusting, more or less avoidant, we rationalize more or less.
如果我们或多或少信任，或多或少回避，我们就会或多或少地合理化。
These are the factors that determine where do our lives go?
这些因素决定了我们的人生走向何方？
Because on top of all of this, imagine that the nest of the character structure around all of this grows from it, the self.
因为除此之外，想象一下围绕这一切的性格结构的巢穴是从它——自我——中生长出来的。
The product of the feelings inside, the things that we know about ourselves and don't know about ourselves, the decisions that all of it leads to.
内心感受的产物，我们对自己了解和不了解的事情，以及所有这些所导致的决定。
So I may choose to be, for example, more trusting, and that may bring an opportunity to me that I wouldn't have otherwise had.
因此，例如，我可能会选择更加信任他人，这可能会给我带来一个原本不会有的机会。
I may choose to be more trusting, and it may bring risk to me that I wouldn't otherwise have had.
我可能会选择更加信任，但这可能会给我带来原本不会有的风险。
So we want to be as healthy as we can, as knowledgeable of ourselves and the world around us, so that it's safe for us to have a healthy character structure through which we can engage in the world around us with a sense of prudence.
因此，我们希望尽可能保持健康，了解自己和周围的世界，这样我们才能安全地拥有健康的性格结构，通过这种结构，我们可以谨慎地参与周围的世界。
Taking reasonable risks.
承担合理的风险。
Not too little so that we shut ourselves down and maybe end up despairing.
不能太少，否则我们就会封闭自己，甚至最终陷入绝望。
Not so much that scary things can happen to us and we end up fearful.
并不是说可怕的事情会发生在我们身上，我们最终会感到恐惧。
But the idea that if we know ourselves well, the character structure is healthy because it's built upon a structure of self and a function of self that are healthy, and out of it is coming empowerment.
但是，如果我们充分了解自己，性格结构就是健康的，因为它是建立在健康的自我结构和自我功能之上的，从中会产生赋权。
And empowerment and humility that then lead us to agency and gratitude.
赋权和谦逊会引导我们走向主动和感恩。
The idea here is that this is the character structure that we create that can then interface with the world in a way that's good for us and good for the world around us, that leads us to be able to live in much more harmony inside of ourselves and outside of ourselves.
这里的想法是，这是我们创造的性格结构，然后可以以一种对我们自己和我们周围的世界都有好处的方式与世界互动，使我们能够在自己的内部和外部更加和谐地生活。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So if I understand correctly, defense mechanisms that grow up out of this portion of the iceberg that we're calling the unconscious mind, they protect our conscious self in ways that can be adaptive or that can be maladaptive.
因此，如果我理解正确的话，防御机制是从我们称之为潜意识的冰山部分中产生的，它们以适应性或适应不良的方式保护我们的意识自我。
In other words-
换句话说——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
defenses can be healthy-
防御可以是健康的——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or they can be unhealthy.
否则它们可能不健康。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And perhaps in a few minutes, we can get into what a healthy versus an unhealthy defense looks like.
也许几分钟后，我们就能了解健康与不健康的防守是什么样子的。
But the way you described character structure sounds to me like an array of contextual dispositions.
但你描述角色结构的方式对我来说听起来像是一系列上下文倾向。
I don't want to add unnecessarily complex language, but it sounds to me like a bunch of dispositions.
我不想添加不必要的复杂语言，但对我来说这听起来像是一堆倾向。
Like if I'm walking into the office where I know everybody and I see familiar faces, there's no reason for me to be on guard-
就像如果我走进办公室，我认识每个人并且看到熟悉的面孔，我没有理由保持警惕 -
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
if I trust those people.
如果我信任那些人。
But if I'm walking down a street at night that I'm not familiar with and I'm starting to get the sense that this neighborhood might not be the best, it makes sense for me to be on relatively high alert.
但如果我晚上走在一条我不熟悉的街道上，并且我开始感觉到这个社区可能不是最好的，那么我保持相对高度的警惕是有道理的。
So different dispositions depending on different conditions.
所以根据不同的情况采取不同的处理方式。
I can't help but mention my bulldog, Costello, who had basically three dispositions.
我忍不住要提到我的斗牛犬科斯特洛，它基本上具有三种性格。
It was asleep .
它睡着了。
But in all seriousness, the second one was kind of bored, the bulldog face is kind of bored, or if something was given to him that he liked or if we were doing something he liked, delight.
但严肃地说，第二个有点无聊，斗牛犬的脸有点无聊，或者如果给了他他喜欢的东西，或者如果我们做了他喜欢的事情，那就很高兴。
He basically had three dispositions as far as I could tell.
据我所知，他基本上具有三种性格。
I think one of the reasons we like dogs so much, or that many of us like dogs so much, is that their decisions are very predictable.
我认为我们如此喜欢狗，或者我们很多人如此喜欢狗的原因之一是它们的决定是非常可预测的。
Take him to the park, he's happy.
带他去公园，他很高兴。
Unless he happened to be ill that day, which was rare.
除非那天他碰巧生病了，这种情况很少见。
Feed him, he's happy.
喂饱他，他就开心了。
There wasn't a lot of, "I don't like this particular meal," or, "I don't like this particular park," or, "This bichon frise doesn't smell so good to me."
没有太多的内容，“我不喜欢这顿特别的饭菜”，或者“我不喜欢这个特别的公园”，或者“这比熊卷毛对我来说闻起来不太好。”
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was so simple.
就是这么简单。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And yet people are very complex.
然而人是非常复杂的。
I can look at myself and say, "Okay, what is my character structure?" Character structure is certain things I like, certain things I dislike, certain things really irritate me, certain environments and people I just delight in.
我可以看着自己说：“好吧，我的性格结构是什么？”性格结构是我喜欢的某些事情，我不喜欢的某些事情，我真正讨厌的某些事情，我喜欢的某些环境和人。
Okay, so is the definition of a healthy character structure one in which the dispositions match the context perfectly?
好吧，那么健康的性格结构的定义是性格与环境完美匹配吗？
I don't know how any of us could be like that, but is that sort of the ideal?
我不知道我们中的任何一个人怎么会像那样，但这就是理想的吗？
Much in the same way that we could probably arrive at an ideal degree of stamina that one could have.
就像我们可以达到一个人可以拥有的理想耐力程度一样。
Some people run ultramarathons, 100 miles or more.
有些人跑超级马拉松，跑 100 英里甚至更长。
Some people want to run a marathon.
有些人想跑马拉松。
Some people like me don't really desire to run a marathon, but I want to be able to run a mile if I need to-
像我这样的一些人并不真的想跑马拉松，但如果需要的话，我希望能够跑一英里——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
without being completely exhausted and injured.
没有完全疲惫和受伤。
So, when we ask ourselves about character structure, are we asking ourselves about context-driven dispositions and how do we start to evaluate that for ourselves?
因此，当我们问自己性格结构时，我们是否在问自己环境驱动的性格以及我们如何开始为自己进行评估？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
I think because we're more complicated, I think it's not dispositions as much as it's predispositions.
我认为因为我们更加复杂，所以我认为这不是性格，而是倾向。
So in the example that you gave, you have a certain predisposition to be either trusting or wary.
因此，在您给出的示例中，您有一定的倾向，要么信任，要么警惕。
And that's healthy in you.
这对你来说是健康的。
So when you come into a setting where there's not a good reason to feel mistrustful, to feel anxious, to feel vulnerable, then you feel at ease.
因此，当你进入一个没有充分理由感到不信任、焦虑、脆弱的环境时，你就会感到轻松。
So you walk into the work setting, there are people you know, there are people you like.
所以你走进工作环境，那里有你认识的人，有你喜欢的人。
Everything is okay.
一切都好。
You have a different predisposition when the context is different.
当环境不同时，你会有不同的倾向。
So if the context could bring a lack of safety, then you'll respond accordingly with a lack of safety.
因此，如果环境可能会带来缺乏安全感，那么你就会相应地做出缺乏安全感的反应。
But it's possible, certainly, those predispositions can be in unhealthy places.
但当然，这些倾向也可能存在于不健康的地方。
So for example, you might have been traumatized in a certain way, or you might approach the world in a certain way because of prior experience that you may not register as trauma, but it may be that within you is a predisposition to be mistrustful.
例如，你可能以某种方式受到了创伤，或者你可能因为之前的经历而以某种方式接触世界，你可能不会将这些经历记录为创伤，但你内心可能有一种不信任的倾向。
So you could walk into a room of people that you know, of people who've never meant you any harm, and still feel unsafe.
因此，你可能走进一个你认识的人的房间，里面的人从未对你有任何伤害，但仍然感到不安全。
Now, this happens most often after trauma, but there are other ways people can get to that where the predisposition isn't so healthy.
现在，这种情况最常发生在创伤后，但人们还可以通过其他方式在倾向不太健康的情况下达到这种情况。
The converse is true, too.
反之亦然。
There are people who can have too much of what's called an omnipotence defense, and then they don't recognize danger when danger is around them.
有些人可能拥有太多所谓的全能防御，然后当危险就在他们周围时，他们就意识不到危险。
So the idea, the character structure, that nest that's built around the defensive structure and the conscious mind that's sitting on top of the part of the iceberg, the unconscious mind underwater.
所以这个想法，角色结构，围绕防御结构建立的巢穴和位于冰山顶部的意识思维，以及水下的无意识思维。
It's that nest that is interfacing with the world through a whole set of predispositions.
正是这个巢穴通过一整套的倾向与世界相连。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, AG1.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 AG1。
AG1 is a vitamin, mineral, probiotic drink that meets all of your foundational nutrition needs.
AG1 是一种维生素、矿物质、益生菌饮料，可满足您所有的基本营养需求。
I started taking AG1 way back in 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring the podcast.
我早在 2012 年就开始观看 AG1，所以我很高兴他们赞助这个播客。
The reason I started taking AG1, and the reason I still take AG1 once or generally twice per day, is that it's the easiest way for me to ensure that I'm getting all of the vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and fiber that I need in my diet.
我开始服用 AG1 的原因，以及我仍然每天服用一次或一般两次 AG1 的原因是，这对我来说是确保我从饮食中获取所需的所有维生素、矿物质、益生菌和纤维的最简单方法。
Now, of course, it's essential to get proper nutrition from whole foods, but most people, including myself, find it hard to get enough servings of fruits and vegetables each day, and especially to get enough prebiotics and probiotics to ensure gut health.
当然，现在从天然食品中获取适当的营养是至关重要的，但大多数人，包括我自己，发现每天很难获得足够的水果和蔬菜，尤其是获得足够的益生元和益生菌以确保肠道健康。
As you may know, your gut contains trillions of little microbiota, the so-called gut microbiome, which establishes critical connections with other organs of your body to enhance brain health, as well as to support your immune system and other aspects that relate to mental and physical health.
您可能知道，您的肠道含有数万亿个小微生物群，即所谓的肠道微生物组，它与您身体的其他器官建立了重要的联系，以增强大脑健康，并支持您的免疫系统和与身心健康相关的其他方面。
One of the most common questions I get is, if you were to take just one supplement, which supplement would that be?
我最常见的问题之一是，如果您只服用一种补充剂，会选择哪种补充剂？
And my answer is always AG1, because by taking AG1, I'm able to ensure that I'm getting all of the vitamins, minerals, and probiotics that I need to enhance my mental health, physical health, and performance.
我的答案始终是 AG1，因为通过服用 AG1，我能够确保获得增强心理健康、身体健康和表现所需的所有维生素、矿物质和益生菌。
If you'd like to try AG1, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1，请访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 以获得特别优惠。
They'll give you five free travel packs, and they'll give you a year's supply of vitamin D3 K2.
他们会为您提供五个免费旅行包，并为您提供一年的维生素 D3 K2。
Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman to claim this special offer.
再次强调，请通过 Drinkag1.com/huberman 领取此特别优惠。
I think most of us are familiar with assessing and assigning names to the character structures of others, and at least for most of us, we do that with no professional training or authority, right?
我认为我们大多数人都熟悉评估他人的性格结构并为其分配名称，至少对于我们大多数人来说，我们在没有专业培训或权威的情况下就这样做了，对吧？
We say, "That person is great.
我们说：“那个人很棒。
They're super nice.
他们超级好。
That person's a jerk.
那个人是个混蛋。
They're weird." Et cetera.
他们很奇怪。”等等。
I think very few of us are familiar with assessing our own character structure.
我认为我们很少有人熟悉评估自己的性格结构。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
And I have to presume that some of what happens when somebody comes to you as a psychiatrist or to a psychologist is that certain questions are asked and certain narratives are told that start to reveal to the clinician the character structure.
我必须假设，当有人以精神科医生或心理学家的身份来找你时，会发生一些情况，他们会提出某些问题并讲述某些叙述，从而开始向临床医生揭示性格结构。
And perhaps from there, some of the possible defense mechanisms and structure of the person's unconscious mind and conscious mind that obviously are unaware to them-
或许从那里开始，人的潜意识和意识的一些可能的防御机制和结构显然是他们不知道的——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but would be clear to the clinician.
但临床医生会很清楚。
Much in the same way that if somebody goes into the doctor and says, "I don't feel well," they're going to start probing with questions, or they're going to listen to their breathing-
就像如果有人去看医生并说“我感觉不舒服”，他们就会开始询问问题，或者他们会听自己的呼吸——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
listen to their heart, right?
倾听他们的内心，对吗？
I mean, these are the-
我的意思是，这些是——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right, get out the stethoscope and figure it out
对了，拿出听诊器来看看吧
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
these are the probes.
这些是探针。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Whereas the psychiatrist or psychologist uses words and language-
而精神科医生或心理学家使用的文字和语言——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to probe.
去探查。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what are the sorts of aspects of character structure that we can be aware of in ourselves?
那么我们可以意识到自己性格结构的哪些方面呢？
In other words, should we be asking what type of character do I have, dependent on one circumstance or another?
换句话说，我们是否应该根据一种或另一种情况来问我具有哪种性格类型？
Should we ask ourselves what sorts of defenses we have?
我们应该问自己，我们有什么样的防御措施？
And maybe this would be a good opportunity to address this issue of what are healthy versus unhealthy defenses.
也许这将是解决健康防御与不健康防御问题的好机会。
Because it sounds to me, if I understand correctly, that the defense mechanisms are a very strong component in determining what our character structure is.
因为在我看来，如果我理解正确的话，防御机制是决定我们性格结构的一个非常强大的组成部分。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Right, because the defense mechanisms are unconscious, right?
是的，因为防御机制是无意识的，对吗？
The character structure that nest around the defenses in the conscious mind through which we interface with the world, right, is very, very complicated.
围绕着我们与世界互动的意识头脑中的防御的性格结构是非常非常复杂的。
So there are as many character structures as there are human beings, right?
那么有多少个人就有多少种性格结构，对吧？
So it's very, very complicated, but there are factors that are consistently relevant across people and get identified as such.
所以这非常非常复杂，但有些因素在人们之间始终相关并被识别出来。
So one example would be isolation versus affiliation, right?
一个例子就是孤立与归属，对吧？
So does a person tend to group with others, right?
那么一个人是否倾向于与其他人结为一伙，对吧？
Or does a person tend to avoid grouping, right, and go about thoughts, tasks, approaches to life in a more singular manner, right?
或者一个人是否倾向于避免分组，对吧，并以更单一的方式思考、任务和生活方式，对吧？
So it's just one element.
所以这只是一个元素。
I'm not making value judgment about it, because it can be good or bad on either end of the spectrum, right?
我不会对它做出价值判断，因为它在两端都可能是好是坏，对吧？
So we're just saying, what are the factors?
那么我们只是说，有哪些因素呢？
So am I more affiliative, or do I tend to isolate and be more singular?
那么，我是更具亲和力，还是倾向于孤立、更加单一？
That's just one example, right?
这只是一个例子，对吧？
Another example could be things like, for example, use of humor, right?
另一个例子可能是幽默的运用，对吗？
Does a person use humor, and in what way, right?
一个人会使用幽默吗？以什么方式使用，对吗？
Does a person use humor to deflect discomfort in negative situations?
在消极的情况下，一个人会用幽默来转移不适吗？
Does a person use humor in order to belittle others or to belittle themselves?
一个人是否会用幽默来贬低别人或贬低自己？
Or does a person not use humor, right?
或者一个人不会使用幽默，对吗？
So these aspects of character structure, and so much research has been done on this over the years to determine what is most salient, right, in this thing that we use in order to interface with the world around us, out of which grows our self.
因此，性格结构的这些方面，以及多年来在这方面进行的大量研究，以确定我们用来与周围世界互动的东西中最显着的部分，对吧，我们的自我从中成长。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That makes good sense, and it makes me want to revise a little bit what I asked about before, which is I said that when it comes to an exam of physical health, we measure blood pressure, measure breathing, et cetera, maybe even a blood test to look at some biomarkers.
这很有道理，这让我想稍微修改一下我之前问的问题，即我说，当涉及到身体健康检查时，我们会测量血压、测量呼吸等等，甚至可能进行血液测试来查看一些生物标志物。
But what you're describing is a little bit more analogous to the physician addressing a patient who's having some physical discomfort or malaise and saying, "Tell me about your day.
但你所描述的有点类似于医生对身体不适或不适的病人说：“告诉我你今天的情况。
What do you do when you get up in the morning?" If the person says, "Well, I drink a quarter pint of vodka," it's a very different answer than, "I go outside and get sunlight in my eyes, drink a glass of water, and maybe have a cup of coffee." Right?
早上起床后你会做什么？”如果这个人说：“嗯，我喝了四分之一品脱伏特加”，这与“我到外面去，让阳光照射到眼睛里，喝一杯水，也许还喝杯咖啡”是一个非常不同的答案。正确的？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or if somebody says, "I have six espresso".
或者如果有人说，“我有六杯浓缩咖啡”。
If I understand correctly, the character structure is better revealed by exploring the action states that somebody-
如果我理解正确的话，通过探索某人的动作可以更好地揭示人物结构——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
It comes to life
它变得栩栩如生
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
engages in.
从事.
Isolation versus engagement, as opposed to a read of one specific biomarker.
隔离与参与，而不是读取一种特定的生物标志物。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So to speak.
这么说吧。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
It's character structure brought to life.
它的角色结构栩栩如生。
Right.
正确的。
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Immediately I'm thinking about movies and books where we learn so much about somebody through observing the way that they interact with people in very potent ways.
我立即想到了电影和书籍，通过观察他们与人互动的方式，我们可以对他们有很多了解。
So for instance, I can think of ...
例如，我可以想到......
countless movies where you learn a ton about somebody in the first scene simply because of the way they react to somebody who cuts them off in traffic.
在无数的电影中，你在第一个场景中就能对某个人了解很多，仅仅因为他们对在交通中挡住他们的人的反应方式。
They just explode.
他们只是爆炸。
Okay, well then we think of that person as reactive from that point on, unless there's a significant amount of material to revise that.
好吧，那么从那时起我们就认为那个人是被动的，除非有大量的材料可以修改。
But it's in the action of getting explosive and cursing, et cetera, as opposed to if they just kind of laugh it off or laugh at themselves, or blame someone within their own vehicle or something like that.
但这是在爆发和咒骂等行为中，而不是他们只是一笑置之或嘲笑自己，或责怪自己车内的某人或类似的事情。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So are those the sorts of things that a clinician like yourself is listening for when somebody says, "I don't feel well," and you say, "Well, tell me about what's going on lately," and they start describing what's going on in their life.
当有人说“我感觉不舒服”，你说“好吧，告诉我最近发生了什么”时，像你这样的临床医生就会听到这些事情，然后他们开始描述他们生活中发生的事情。
And are you listening for those places where the defense mechanisms start to reveal themselves, the character structure starts to reveal itself through these action steps that the person seems to be taking?
你是否在倾听那些防御机制开始显现出来的地方，性格结构开始通过这个人似乎正在采取的这些行动步骤显现出来？
Is it-
难道是——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Maybe one way of looking at character structure is that it's potentialities and predispositions.
也许看待性格结构的一种方式是看它的潜力和倾向。
That there's so much that's latent that then interfaces with events.
有太多潜在的东西会与事件相互作用。
Like a person stuck in traffic, how does that person respond?
就像一个人堵在路上一样，他会如何反应？
If that person weren't stuck in traffic, there wouldn't be a response to it.
如果那个人没有遇到交通堵塞，就不会得到回应。
So they're potentialities, they're predispositions, and then we live through enacting them as we're moving then through life.
所以它们是潜力，它们是倾向，然后我们在生活中通过发挥它们来生活。
And the attempts to understand.
并尝试去理解。
So using the physical health parallel.
所以用身体健康并行。
If you came in and you said, "I don't feel well." We might run a lot of tests.
如果你进来时说：“我感觉不舒服。”我们可能会进行很多测试。
We might get an MRI or a CT scan, or even putting the stethoscope and listening to what's inside of you.
我们可能会进行 MRI 或 CT 扫描，甚至戴上听诊器来听听你体内的情况。
Those, we could say, are unconscious things.
我们可以说，这些都是无意识的事情。
You're not aware of what the imaging may show, or the blood test may show, or how your lungs may sound when someone puts a stethoscope on them.
您不知道影像可能显示什么，或者血液测试可能显示什么，或者当有人将听诊器放在您的肺部时，您的肺部会发出什么声音。
So a clinician, if you're trying to understand and help someone, then you do want to look for those things.
所以，作为一名临床医生，如果你想理解并帮助某人，那么你确实想要寻找这些东西。
You want to look for the things that are underneath the surface, but that can be very, very important.
你想要寻找表面之下的东西，但这可能非常非常重要。
You also want to look at everything that's on the surface.
你还想看看表面上的一切。
So if you're engaging with someone, you're engaging with the self.
因此，如果你与某人交往，你就是在与自我交往。
The self that grows out of the character structure nest.
从性格结构巢穴中生长出来的自我。
So by engaging with and doing one's best to understand the self, then you learn about what is underneath of it.
因此，通过与自我接触并尽最大努力了解自我，你就能了解自我的本质。
So I may then learn, well, how do you respond in certain situations?
所以我可能会知道，在某些情况下你会如何反应？
Just like I could ask you questions.
就像我可以问你问题一样。
Well, when do you not feel well?
嗯，你什么时候感觉不舒服？
So you're asking a person questions because the idea is to understand elements of the character structure.
所以你问一个人问题是因为这个想法是为了理解角色结构的元素。
So how do you respond in certain situations?
那么在某些情况下你会如何应对呢？
What's going on inside of you?
你内心发生了什么？
What do you understand about yourself, and what do you not understand about yourself?
你对自己了解什么，你不了解自己什么？
How do you bring yourself to bear in the world around you?
你如何让自己适应周围的世界？
So there's a similar process going on.
所以有一个类似的过程正在发生。
But here, we're trying to understand the self, and the understanding of the self can help us understand the components underneath of the self, because that's where we're going to go to make things better.
但在这里，我们试图理解自我，对自我的理解可以帮助我们理解自我背后的组成部分，因为这就是我们要让事情变得更好的地方。
The idea is there shouldn't have to be mystery, or certainly not mystery any more than there is in physical health.
我们的想法是，这不应该是神秘的，或者肯定不比身体健康更神秘。
Rarely someone comes in and they're really not feeling well and a whole set of everything that should be done is done.
很少有人进来，他们真的感觉不舒服，所有应该做的事情都已经完成了。
Labs, physical examination, history, imaging.
实验室、体格检查、病史、影像学。
And you still just don't know.
而你仍然不知道。
Sometimes that can happen, but it's very rare.
有时这种情况可能会发生，但非常罕见。
And the same should apply here, that if we're examining a self and we're looking for the components out of which that self comes then we should be able to understand well enough to go back to the components of self and to make change so that the self is in a better place.
这同样适用于这里，如果我们正在检查一个自我，并且我们正在寻找那个自我的组成部分，那么我们应该能够充分理解，以便回到自我的组成部分并做出改变，以便自我处于一个更好的位置。
And that self can then be empowered, can feel humility.
然后，那个自我就会被赋予力量，能够感受到谦卑。
Can then come at life through the altruism and gratitude that we seek.
然后可以通过我们所寻求的利他主义和感恩来实现生活。
Because, again, you show me someone who's coming at life through altruism and gratitude and is not happy with their life, and you'll be showing me something I've never seen before, something entirely new.
因为，你再次向我展示了一个通过利他主义和感恩而生活的人，并对他们的生活不满意，你将向我展示一些我以前从未见过的东西，一些全新的东西。
So if we want to get there, we want to know how to get there, and there are ways, as there should be, that parallel physical health that aren't mysterious, that we can come at to make understanding and change.
因此，如果我们想要实现这一目标，我们就想知道如何实现这一目标，而且应该有一些方法，让我们能够理解并改变那种平行的身体健康，这并不神秘。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm wondering about the role of anxiety in all of this.
我想知道焦虑在这一切中所扮演的角色。
The reason I ask about anxiety is that you said that so much of character structure is determined by a set of predispositions and potentialities.
我问焦虑的原因是你说性格结构很大程度上是由一系列倾向和潜力决定的。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And earlier, we were talking about the example of either being afraid or unafraid in particular environments, or feeling like we can walk into a classroom and learn, or whether or not we're overly concerned about what people think about us, or both.
早些时候，我们讨论了在特定环境中感到害怕或不害怕的例子，或者感觉我们可以走进教室学习，或者我们是否过度关心人们对我们的看法，或者两者兼而有之。
It could be a mix.
它可能是一种混合。
Whether or not we can embrace novel environments in safe and adaptive ways.
我们是否能够以安全和适应性的方式拥抱新的环境。
Whether or not we can grow from them as opposed to whether or not we can be overtaken by them or perhaps even injured, harmed psychologically, physically, or both.
我们是否能够从它们中成长，而不是我们是否会被它们超越，甚至可能受到心理、身体或两者的伤害。
Anxiety, to me, is a very basic function.
对我来说，焦虑是一种非常基本的功能。
I think about it in terms of the autonomic nervous system and degrees of excitability and et cetera, and ability to sleep at night, and ability to wake up feeling reasonably good but not have a panic attack.
我从自主神经系统和兴奋程度等方面来考虑，以及夜间睡眠的能力，以及醒来时感觉相当良好但不会惊恐发作的能力。
But anxiety, to me, does seem like a key node in all of this.
但对我来说，焦虑似乎确实是这一切的一个关键节点。
Meaning most people, including myself, I don't walk around thinking about my character structure.
这意味着大多数人，包括我自己，我不会到处思考我的性格结构。
I don't walk around thinking about how I'm going to behave in a bunch of hypothetical environments.
我不会四处走动思考在一堆假设的环境中我将如何表现。
I think about the fact that most mornings I wake up and I feel pretty good.
我想到大多数早晨我醒来后都感觉很好。
To be quite honest, not as good as I would like to feel.
说实话，没有我想要的那么好。
And not necessarily because anything's wrong, but because I think I'm wired to be a little bit more on the anxious side and to predict what's going to happen next and what needs to be done.
不一定是因为出了什么问题，而是因为我认为我天生会更加焦虑，并预测接下来会发生什么以及需要做什么。
And so until I'm actually engaging in certain behaviors, that anxiety hums a little bit high for me.
因此，在我真正做出某些行为之前，我的焦虑感会有点高。
The gears turn a little bit faster, perhaps, than I would like when I wake up in the morning.
也许，齿轮转动的速度比我早上醒来时想要的要快一些。
But once I engage, I feel like the speed of that gear turning matches the demands of life pretty well.
但一旦我参与进来，我觉得齿轮转动的速度非常符合生活的需求。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I feel agency.
我觉得代理。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay?
好吧？
So if you don't mind, could we explore this feeling of anxiety or lack of anxiety that I think people are pretty familiar with within themselves at different times of day and under different conditions?
那么，如果您不介意的话，我们可以探讨一下这种焦虑感或不焦虑感吗？我认为人们在一天中的不同时间和不同条件下都非常熟悉这种感觉？
Because to me, it seems like an interesting lens to explore this notion of character structure and defenses.
因为对我来说，这似乎是探索角色结构和防御概念的有趣镜头。
Is anxiety a healthy defense or an unhealthy defense, or does it simply depend on the circumstances?
焦虑是一种健康的防御还是不健康的防御，还是仅仅取决于具体情况？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Well, we all have some degree of anxiety in us, right?
好吧，我们内心都有一定程度的焦虑，对吧？
We all have some awareness that we're navigating the world and not everything is perfect, right?
我们都知道，我们正在探索这个世界，但并不是一切都是完美的，对吧？
This is not nirvana.
这不是涅槃。
So there's some anxiety within us, and the thought is that that anxiety can keep us vigilant about the things we should be vigilant about, health and safety, right?
所以我们内心有一些焦虑，这种焦虑可以让我们对我们应该警惕的事情保持警惕，健康和安全，对吗？
But that too much anxiety then becomes counterproductive.
但过多的焦虑会适得其反。
And we can look at this in a very regimented way, right?
我们可以以一种非常严格的方式来看待这个问题，对吗？
So some anxiety makes sense, right?
所以有些焦虑是有道理的，对吧？
It keeps us being careful.
它让我们保持小心谨慎。
It keeps you being careful as you're pulling out of a driveway, for example, right?
例如，当您驶出车道时，它会让您保持小心，对吗？
So okay, it can be absolutely fine.
所以好吧，绝对没问题。
But let's say you bring something to clinical attention that isn't absolutely fine, right?
但假设你给临床带来了一些并不完全好的东西，对吧？
Let's say I didn't know you and you come in, we have the example that you used before, where you walk into work and there's a group of people that you know well and like, right?
假设我不认识你，你进来了，我们有你之前用过的例子，你走进工作场所，有一群你很熟悉并且喜欢的人，对吗？
Let's say you told me, "When I walk in there, I feel very anxious." Right?
假设你告诉我，“当我走进那里时，我感到非常焦虑。”正确的？
"I don't feel like things are okay." Right?
“我觉得事情不太好。”正确的？
So then we would go through it.
那么我们就会经历它。
We said, that's not good.
我们说，这不好。
Right?
正确的？
Maybe it's impacting your professional life.
也许它会影响你的职业生涯。
Things are not going well.
事情进展不顺利。
You really want this to change because it's impacting your life in a negative way.
您确实希望这种情况发生改变，因为它对您的生活产生了负面影响。
And we say, okay, let's look at that from the perspective of structure of self, right?
我们说，好吧，让我们从自我结构的角度来看这个问题，对吧？
So first, unconscious, right?
所以首先，无意识，对吗？
Is it that just genetically are you built with just higher levels of anxiety, right?
是不是从基因上来说，你天生就有更高程度的焦虑，对吧？
So we could learn, okay, have you always been anxious like this?
所以我们可以学习一下，好吧，你一直这样焦虑吗？
Has this always been in your life since you were a little kid, no matter what?
无论如何，从你还是个孩子的时候起，这一直存在于你的生活中吗？
So we're looking for biological nature, so to speak, variables.
所以我们正在寻找生物本质，可以说是变量。
We might also look for things that have happened to you that are lodged in your unconscious mind, right?
我们也可能会寻找发生在你身上的那些存在于你潜意识中的事情，对吧？
Is there trauma that you haven't processed, right, that now is underneath the surface but is spinning off more anxiety, right?
是否有一些创伤你还没有处理，对吧，现在它在表面之下，但正在引发更多的焦虑，对吗？
Let's say you tell me, oh, it wasn't that long ago you started being anxious.
假设你告诉我，哦，不久前你开始焦虑。
Ah, did something happen?
啊，是不是出什么事了？
Did you walk into a group of people and, I don't know, you tripped and you felt bad about something, right?
你是否走进一群人，然后，我不知道，你被绊倒了，你对某事感觉很糟糕，对吧？
And then you get more anxious, right?
然后你会变得更加焦虑，对吗？
So are there things going on underneath the surface that are impacting you?
那么，表面之下发生的事情是否对你产生了影响呢？
Let's look into that, right?
让我们研究一下，对吗？
Because that's the biggest part of the iceberg, right?
因为那是冰山最大的部分，对吗？
Then your conscious mind, we could start thinking about, okay, what's going on?
然后你的意识思维，我们可以开始思考，好吧，发生了什么事？
What are you actively thinking about, right?
你在积极地思考什么，对吗？
So this is where sometimes cognitive behavioral techniques can come into mind.
因此，有时我们会想到认知行为技术。
Are you thinking, like, "Oh, no, I'm scared.
你是否在想，“哦，不，我很害怕。
It isn't going to go well," right?
事情不会顺利，”对吧？
Are you having thoughts?
你有想法吗？
Are the thoughts then making you more anxious, right?
这些想法会让你更加焦虑吗？
What's going on in your conscious mind, right?
你的意识中正在发生什么，对吗？
I would also be very interested in the defenses around you.
我对你周围的防御也很感兴趣。
So for example, do you tend to avoid, right?
举例来说，你是否倾向于回避，对吧？
Has this been getting worse for three months, but your mind wouldn't acknowledge it, right?
三个月来情况一直在恶化，但你的大脑不承认这一点，对吗？
And by the time you have to acknowledge it, now it's really bad, right?
当你不得不承认这一点时，现在情况真的很糟糕，对吧？
Or do you not avoid and this just started happening, and you want to nip it in the bud, right?
或者你不避免，这才刚刚发生，你想将其消灭在萌芽状态，对吧？
So I would be interested in the defense mechanisms, right, that are girding your conscious self, and I would be interested in the character structure.
所以我会对防御机制感兴趣，对吧，这些机制正在束缚你的意识自我，我也会对性格结构感兴趣。
What decisions are you then making?
那么你会做出什么决定？
Are you going anyway, right?
无论如何你还是要去吧？
Are you having trouble, so sometimes you avoid?
你是否遇到了麻烦，所以有时你会逃避？
Are you then making decisions that make you late and that causes problems?
那么您是否做出了导致迟到并引发问题的决定？
How does it impact you once you're there?
一旦你到达那里，它对你有什么影响？
Are you engaging differently with people, doing your work differently?
您与人相处、工作方式是否不同？
So I want to understand the character structure and ultimately, you understand all of this by probing the self that's riding along on top of it.
所以我想了解角色结构，最终，你可以通过探索在其之上的自我来了解所有这一切。
And then what is the experience of that self?
那么那个自我的体验又是什么呢？
Do you see that, okay, this is a problem, and I want to address it, but look, I know that I'm good at what I do, and this isn't some awful thing about me.
你看到了吗，好吧，这是一个问题，我想解决它，但是看，我知道我很擅长我所做的事情，这对我来说并不是什么可怕的事情。
I just have to deal with it, right?
我只需要处理它，对吗？
Or is your self impacted where you start thinking, "Maybe I can't do this anymore.
或者你的自我受到影响，你开始思考：“也许我不能再这样做了。
I'm not good enough." We want to understand what's the experience of the self, right?
我还不够好。”我们想了解自我的经历是什么，对吧？
And if we do all of that, how is it that we don't get to a place where we can understand that anxiety, right, and we can make things better?
如果我们做了所有这些，为什么我们不能理解这种焦虑，对吧，并且我们可以让事情变得更好？
So just like in physical health, okay, maybe we can't, but that is a dramatic outlier.
就像身体健康一样，好吧，也许我们不能，但这是一个戏剧性的异常值。
If we bring ourselves to bear, we would say you should not have to have this in you, right?
如果我们自己承担的话，我们会说你不应该有这个，对吧？
Because it is something negative.
因为它是消极的东西。
It is making unhappiness for you.
它正在给你带来不快乐。
It is taking away from empowerment, right?
它正在剥夺权力，对吗？
And it's also taking away from humility, right?
而且它也剥夺了谦卑，对吧？
Because if someone's beating up on themselves, you're beating up on yourself about it, then that's not humility, right?
因为如果有人自责，你也自责，那就不是谦卑，对吧？
Then that's being sort of falsely persecutory, right?
那么这就是一种虚假的迫害，对吧？
This is not an honest humility to that.
这并不是一种诚实的谦虚。
It leads us away from health.
它使我们远离健康。
So it's like we don't want it to be this way, right?
所以我们不希望事情变成这样，对吧？
Because that is working against agency and gratitude so we can understand it and we can go after it and make it better.
因为这不利于代理和感恩，所以我们可以理解它，我们可以追求它并使其变得更好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One of the most common questions I get on the internet, and I get a lot of questions, is what can be done to improve confidence?
我在互联网上最常见的问题之一，我收到了很多问题，是可以采取什么措施来提高信心？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I've thought a lot about that question and what is confidence?
我对这个问题思考了很多，什么是信心？
In the context of what we're talking about now is one reasonable definition of confidence, our ability to trust our predispositions and our potentialities enough that were we to encounter scenarios A through Z, we feel pretty good that we would respond the right way, in a way that wouldn't threaten our conscious mind at a core level, right?
在我们现在讨论的背景下，信心是一个合理的定义，我们有足够的能力相信我们的倾向和潜力，当我们遇到A到Z的情况时，我们感觉很好，我们会以正确的方式做出反应，以一种不会在核心层面威胁我们意识的方式，对吗？
That we wouldn't, I used to use the term and joke a lot in my laboratory with the phrase, dissolve into a puddle of our own tears, right?
我们不会，我过去常常使用这个词，并在我的实验室里经常用这个词开玩笑，溶解成我们自己的泪水，对吗？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's kind of this hyperbolic-
这是一种双曲线-
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
explanation of what I think many people fear.
解释我认为很多人担心的事情。
Like they're going to be called upon to answer a question publicly or give a speech, or they're going to be at a critical moment in a relationship or something, and everything is just going to go so badly wrong that it's just going to dissolve them as a person.
就像他们将被要求公开回答问题或发表演讲，或者他们将处于一段关系或其他事情的关键时刻，而一切都会变得如此严重，以至于这会让他们作为一个人消失。
It's Impossible, right?
这是不可能的，对吧？
Dissolve in a puddle of our own tears is impossible, but I think that's a fear that a lot of people live with because, we can get into this a little bit later and we will, I'm sure, this notion of protecting one's ego seems really vital to being a human being at some level.
溶解在我们自己的泪水中是不可能的，但我认为这是很多人都生活在的恐惧，因为，我们可以稍后再讨论这个问题，我确信，这种保护自我的概念在某种程度上对于作为一个人来说确实至关重要。
We don't want to dissolve into a puddle of our own tears.
我们不想化成自己的泪水。
So is confidence the ability to trust ourselves in a bunch of different contexts?
那么信心是指在许多不同的环境中相信自己的能力吗？
And at the same time, I do have to raise this notion of narcissism.
与此同时，我确实必须提出自恋的概念。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think this word gets thrown around a lot lately, but it seems to me that any truly psychologically healthy person would also not want to be the idiot that thinks that they're better than they actually are.
我认为这个词最近被广泛使用，但在我看来，任何真正心理健康的人也不想成为一个认为自己比实际情况更好的白痴。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What are your thoughts on this?
您对此有何看法？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Well, I agree with the things that you said about confidence, except I would add two factors that I think are really big factors.
嗯，我同意你所说的关于信心的事情，除了我想添加两个我认为非常重要的因素。
One being state dependence and the other being phenomenology.
一是国家依赖性，二是现象学。
So think about the state dependence first.
所以首先要考虑国家依赖性。
When we're talking about confidence, it's not uniform.
当我们谈论信心时，它并不统一。
Or it's not automatically uniform.
或者它不会自动统一。
So if you were to tell me, "Oh, I lack confidence." Then I want to understand, is that across the board?
所以如果你告诉我，“哦，我缺乏信心。”那我想了解一下，是不是一刀切？
Is that a way that you feel about yourself?
这是你对自己的感觉吗？
That, "I'm not good enough at anything," for example.
例如，“我在任何事情上都不够好”。
Or do you lack confidence in a specific area?
或者你对某个特定领域缺乏信心？
And this is often the case.
这种情况经常发生。
And it's a huge difference.
这是一个巨大的差异。
It says that person has the machinery of confidence, so to speak.
可以这么说，它说这个人有信心的机制。
They have the potentialities and the predispositions for confidence when that character structure, the self built upon it, is engaging with the world.
当这种性格结构（建立在其之上的自我）与世界接触时，他们就有自信的潜力和倾向。
But they're not able to bring it to bear in a certain special situation, so to speak.
但可以这么说，他们无法在某种特殊情况下发挥作用。
So for some people, for example, the way we most often see this is the carve-out of romance.
例如，对于某些人来说，我们最常看到的方式就是浪漫的消失。
Where because it's so emotionally laden, and rejection can feel so bad, that we can see people who are very confident in many, many aspects of life, but they are very diffident about romance.
因为它的情感如此沉重，被拒绝的感觉如此糟糕，以至于我们可以看到人们对生活的许多方面非常自信，但他们对浪漫却非常缺乏信心。
And they'll say diffident, "Oh, it never works out for me," or, "No one will ever like me." And you say, that's not how that person actually feels about themselves as a whole human being.
他们会自信地说：“哦，这对我来说永远不会成功”，或者“没有人会喜欢我。”你说，这并不是那个人对自己作为一个整体的真实感受。
Which then we are coming at how to make that better in a way that's very robust.
然后我们将研究如何以一种非常稳健的方式使其变得更好。
We might say something like, "Hey, here's the good news, is you have the tools and the machinery that you need.
我们可能会这样说：“嘿，好消息是，您拥有所需的工具和机械。
You're confident in so many ways.
你在很多方面都很自信。
In fact, maybe in all ways except this one.
事实上，也许在所有方面，除了这一点。
So let's go take a look at why is that special?" And then where are we?
那么让我们来看看为什么它有特别之处？”那么我们在哪里呢？
We're back to is it something in the unconscious mind?
我们回到潜意识中的东西吗？
Is it something in the conscious mind about how that person is engaging?
这个人的参与程度是否存在于意识中？
So we have to understand what the state is and if the lack of confidence is state dependent.
因此，我们必须了解国家是什么，以及缺乏信心是否与国家有关。
If the person is not confident across the board, then again, we go back to the same, we always go back to the same places to look.
如果这个人对所有事情都没有信心，那么我们就会回到同样的地方，我们总是回到同样的地方去寻找。
But then you might more think, okay, is there an impact of childhood trauma or early life trauma that took away from that person their ability to gain confidence?
但你可能会更多地想，好吧，童年创伤或早年创伤是否会影响这个人获得自信的能力？
Because if you have no confidence across the board, there's a deeper problem.
因为如果你没有全面的信心，就会有更深层次的问题。
Because there would be something anyone can be good at and feel confident in.
因为任何人都可以擅长并充满信心的事情。
So the state dependence is very important, as is phenomenology.
所以国家依赖性非常重要，现象学也非常重要。
So what is your experience of being confident?
那么你自信的经历是怎样的呢？
If you tell me, let's say in a different version of this example, you say, "Actually, I feel quite confident when I walk into a room of people." I say, okay, I want to understand more about that too.
如果你告诉我，让我们以这个例子的不同版本为例，你会说：“实际上，当我走进一个满是人的房间时，我感到非常自信。”我说，好吧，我也想了解更多。
Because if I ask questions about that and you say, "Well, I feel confident because, look, I'm a pretty smart person.
因为如果我问有关这个问题，你会说：“嗯，我很有信心，因为，看，我是一个非常聪明的人。
I can think on my feet.
我可以独立思考。
I can deal well with people.
我能很好地与人相处。
If something doesn't go right, I can recover from it.
如果事情进展不顺利，我可以从中恢复。
That's why I feel confident." And say, okay, that sounds pretty good.
这就是为什么我感到有信心。”然后说，好吧，听起来不错。
If you say, "Well, I feel confident because I know that I'm better than everybody." Now we have a problem.
如果你说：“嗯，我很有信心，因为我知道我比每个人都好。”现在我们有一个问题。
That's not going to go well in other aspects of life and engagement.
这在生活和参与的其他方面不会顺利。
It's not going to lead to humility and gratitude.
它不会带来谦卑和感激之情。
So where's that coming from?
那么它是从哪里来的呢？
And again, maybe there's a deeper problem.
再说一次，也许还有更深层次的问题。
As you said about narcissism, which can be a reaction, which is a reaction to vulnerability.
正如你所说的自恋，这可能是一种反应，是对脆弱性的反应。
So then there's what's called a reaction formation, and now the person is actually deeply diffident but presents as very, very confident and with a sense of superiority, and that's not a recipe for happiness.
那么就有了所谓的反应形成，现在这个人实际上非常自信，但表现得非常非常自信，有一种优越感，这不是幸福的秘诀。
So in approaching it, we do want to understand all the things that you said.
因此，在处理这个问题时，我们确实希望了解您所说的所有内容。
What are the factors and the set of predispositions and the set of potentialities?
因素、倾向和潜力的集合是什么？
But then what's the real-world experience of that across situations, and what is the person's experience of that inside?
但是，在现实世界中，不同情况下的体验是什么？人的内心体验又是怎样的呢？
Which is why if we're going to understand and help people, that's the understand part.
这就是为什么如果我们要理解并帮助人们，那就是理解部分。
It's why the conveyor belt medicine, it doesn't work in situations where we're dealing with human beings, like mental health.
这就是为什么传送带医学在我们与人类打交道的情况下不起作用，比如心理健康。
We have to understand something about people to understand whatever they're telling us means.
我们必须了解一些关于人们的事情，才能理解他们告诉我们的意思。
Otherwise, you have no context, so you have no knowledge.
否则，你没有背景，所以你没有知识。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Another very common set of questions that I get that I believe is very directly related to this is about beliefs and internal narratives.
我认为与此直接相关的另一组非常常见的问题是关于信仰和内部叙述的。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People ask me all the time, "How can I change what I believe about myself?"
人们总是问我：“我怎样才能改变我对自己的看法？”
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they also ask, "How can I change the script in my head?
他们还问：“我怎样才能改变脑子里的剧本呢？
How do I..." Typically, it's how do I shut down a particular narrative in my head.
我如何……”通常，这是我如何关闭脑海中的特定叙述。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This seems to fit very well in thinking about structure of self, because as you pointed out, the self or the structure of self includes the unconscious mind, what's going on below the surface of the water in this iceberg model, what's going on in the conscious mind, that the conscious mind is Protected by these defense mechanisms that grow up from the unconscious mind, from that comes the character structure, and then this thing that we call the self.
这似乎非常适合思考自我结构，因为正如你所指出的，自我或自我结构包括无意识心智，在这个冰山模型中水面以下发生了什么，有意识心智中发生了什么，有意识心智受到这些从无意识心智中生长出来的防御机制的保护，由此产生了性格结构，然后就是我们称之为自我的东西。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But when it comes to beliefs and internal narratives, those seem to me like things that people are pretty well aware of.
但当谈到信仰和内部叙事时，在我看来，这些似乎是人们非常清楚的事情。
In fact, the very example that people are asking me this all the time, how to change beliefs, internal narratives, means they are aware of them.
事实上，人们一直问我这个问题，如何改变信仰、内部叙事，这个例子就意味着他们意识到了这些。
It also suggests that for many people out there, their beliefs about themselves and their internal narratives are not healthy, or at least they don't feel are serving them well, or that they are intrusive.
它还表明，对于许多人来说，他们对自己的信念和内心的叙述并不健康，或者至少他们觉得自己没有很好地为自己服务，或者觉得自己是侵入性的。
I don't know how open people are about their beliefs and internal narratives when they come to you in your clinical practice, but if you could tell us a little bit about beliefs and internal narratives and whether or not they are important to rewire and reset.
我不知道当人们在你的临床实践中来找你时，他们对自己的信仰和内部叙述有多开放，但如果你能告诉我们一些关于信念和内部叙述的信息，以及它们对于重新连接和重置是否重要。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
This part is extremely important.
这部分非常重要。
So imagine, for example, that I'm saying to myself over and over again that I'm a loser, or I'm not good enough.
因此，想象一下，例如，我一遍又一遍地对自己说我是一个失败者，或者我不够好。
Imagine trying to go through life and someone else was saying that to you all the time.
想象一下，当你试图度过一生时，却有人一直对你这么说。
It's worse when it's inside your own head.
当它在你自己的脑海里时，情况会更糟。
So what's going on inside of us, our internal dialogue, our internal narratives are extremely important.
所以我们内心发生的事情、我们的内部对话、我们的内部叙述是极其重要的。
And here's where we run into a very big problem, is that we live in an era and in a culture that is very attuned to rapid gratification.
这就是我们遇到的一个非常大的问题，那就是我们生活在一个非常注重快速满足的时代和文化中。
And all of this that we're talking about can change, but it does not change quickly.
我们正在谈论的所有这一切都可以改变，但改变不会很快。
And it's amazing to me when you'll see under insurance paradigms often, no matter what's going on with someone, they have 10 sessions of cognitive behavioral treatment.
当你经常看到在保险范式下，无论某人发生什么事，他们都会接受 10 次认知行为治疗，这令我感到惊讶。
If there's something like we're trying to change beliefs, it's a guarantee of failure.
如果我们试图改变信念之类的事情，那就注定会失败。
Because beliefs don't change that fast.
因为信念不会改变那么快。
So imagine, for example, that you and I chose a word, a random word, and we decided to say it 500 times.
举例来说，想象一下，你和我选择了一个单词，一个随机单词，我们决定说它 500 次。
We'd each be saying it tonight.
今晚我们每个人都会这么说。
It's not going to be out of our minds by tonight because we, what, took a random word and said it 500 times?
到了今晚，我们不会忘记这个问题，因为我们，什么，随机说了一个词，说了 500 遍？
So imagine that there's something that's highly emotionally laden, and we've said it thousands and thousands and thousands of times.
想象一下，有一些情绪非常沉重的事情，我们已经说过成千上万次了。
That's not going to go away quickly.
这种情况不会很快消失。
But it can go away, and during the process of it atrophying, our lives can get better.
但它可以消失，在它萎缩的过程中，我们的生活可以变得更好。
This is the opposite of hopeless.
这与绝望相反。
It's actually very encouraging.
这实际上非常令人鼓舞。
But in a world that's rapid gratification, like how do we fix this?
但在一个快速满足的世界里，我们该如何解决这个问题？
How do we fix this now that doesn't acknowledge this?
现在我们不承认这一点，如何解决这个问题？
We hear all the time that a person has failed therapy.
我们总是听到有人治疗失败。
This is said all the time.
这句话一直都在说。
That person failed.
那个人失败了。
What does failed therapy mean?
治疗失败意味着什么？
I think therapy failed that person.
我认为治疗失败了那个人。
But we label, like, oh, but person isn't better.
但我们贴上标签，比如，哦，但人并没有更好。
But there are things going on inside of us that could take months and months or years to make better.
但我们内心发生的一些事情可能需要数月、数月或数年才能变得更好。
Now, again, that's okay if we're aware of what's going on.
现在，再次强调，如果我们知道发生了什么就没关系。
Just the very fact that we understand and we're making change helps us feel better about ourselves and more confident.
事实上，我们理解并正在做出改变，这一事实就能帮助我们对自己感觉更好、更自信。
That we can change all of this, but we have to approach it in the right way.
我们可以改变这一切，但我们必须以正确的方式对待它。
So let's say that I'm telling myself over and over again, "You're not going to get there." And let's say a place I want to go professionally.
因此，假设我一遍又一遍地告诉自己，“你不会到达那里。”假设我想去一个专业的地方。
Or, "No one's ever going to really want you," if I'm looking for a romantic partner.
或者，如果我正在寻找一个浪漫的伴侣，“没有人会真正想要你”。
So imagine these things are going on and they're going on over and over again.
所以想象一下这些事情正在发生，而且一遍又一遍地发生。
And you can imagine now that it's intruded into the unconscious mind, it's going on in my conscious mind, my defensive structure is shifting in negative ways, I'm becoming more avoidant.
你现在可以想象它已经侵入了潜意识，它在我的意识中发生，我的防御结构正在以消极的方式转变，我变得更加回避。
Nothing about this is good and I want it to change, and I want it to change to something that says, "You can do it," or, "You're lovable," or, "You can be a good partner to someone." So I want to change it.
这一切都不好，我希望它改变，我希望它改变成这样的东西：“你可以做到”，或者，“你很可爱”，或者，“你可以成为某人的好伙伴。”所以我想改变它。
So imagine now when I start to make that change, I'm blazing a path, and I'm blazing a path where there wasn't a path before.
所以想象一下，现在当我开始做出改变时，我正在开辟一条道路，而且我正在开辟一条以前没有道路的道路。
And I can blaze a path and I can go through that path, but that path is going to be nothing like maybe the four-lane highway adjacent to me, where the thing that I've been telling myself for years and years and years, born of trauma, is going back and forth.
我可以开辟一条路，我可以走那条路，但那条路可能不会像我附近的四车道高速公路那样，多年来我一直告诉自己的事情，诞生于创伤，正在来回走动。
It's got a four-lane highway.
它有一条四车道高速公路。
I'm cutting a path.
我正在开辟一条路。
But over time, you cut that path more and more.
但随着时间的推移，你会越来越多地切断这条路。
You tread that path more and more.
你越来越多地走这条路。
You take energy towards that path.
你将能量带向那条道路。
It becomes better.
它变得更好。
Now let's imagine the path is well-lit and it's 12 feet wide, and maybe we can pave the path so more traffic, so to speak, goes down it, and we're taking energy away from that four-lane highway, and maybe it starts to be overgrown a little bit and there are cracks in the road.
现在让我们想象一下，这条路光线充足，有 12 英尺宽，也许我们可以铺设这条路，让更多的交通，可以说，沿着它走，我们正在从那条四车道高速公路上吸取能量，也许它开始变得杂草丛生，道路上出现裂缝。
We can change all of that, but we have to understand what's going on and identify it, like what is going on inside of me?
我们可以改变这一切，但我们必须了解正在发生的事情并识别它，就像我内心正在发生什么？
What do I make of it?
我对此有何看法？
How do I understand the process of change?
我如何理解变革的过程？
How do I increase my empowerment during the process of change?
在变革过程中如何增强自己的能力？
If we come at it the right way, all of this can be changed.
如果我们采取正确的方式，这一切都可以改变。
It's not hardwired in us.
它并不是我们固有的。
It's just very strongly reinforced.
它只是得到了非常强烈的强化。
The same way our brains are built this way, so we don't forget our own names.
我们的大脑也是这样构建的，所以我们不会忘记自己的名字。
We don't forget where we live back when we were hunting and gathering.
我们不会忘记狩猎和采集时我们居住的地方。
We don't forget where the good fruits are.
我们不会忘记好果实在哪里。
This goes on in human life now.
这种情况现在在人类生活中仍在上演。
We have to remember things.
我们必须记住一些事情。
It's very important if something has high emotional valence and we've thought it a lot, that we don't forget it.
如果某件事具有很高的情感效价并且我们已经思考了很多，那么我们就不会忘记它，这一点非常重要。
But that mechanism gets hijacked by things that are not good for us, and we can take it back, but not if we don't understand.
但这种机制被那些对我们不利的事物劫持了，我们可以收回它，但如果我们不理解的话就不能。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What are the tools or the questions that you give or ask of patients in order to help them along that pathway?
为了帮助他们走上这条道路，您向患者提供或询问了哪些工具或问题？
Because I totally agree that changing beliefs and internal narratives is very hard.
因为我完全同意改变信念和内心叙述是非常困难的。
Just one quick example that meshes with the physical health realm.
这只是一个与身体健康领域相吻合的简单例子。
I have a friend and colleague, he's a very accomplished scientist who was very overweight for a long period of time.
我有一个朋友兼同事，他是一位非常有成就的科学家，但很长一段时间都超重。
He finally made some behavioral changes that allowed him to lose, I think it was in upwards of 80 pounds.
他最终做出了一些行为上的改变，这让他减掉了80磅以上的体重。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Wow.
哇。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A significant amount of weight.
重量很大。
Felt much better, looked much better.
感觉好多了，看上去也好多了。
He just delighted in his ability to do that, but then started to reveal to me that he was deathly afraid that he was going to lose control and start eating the way he was before and stop exercising in a way that would return him to his previous weight and feelings of malaise.
他只是对自己做到这一点的能力感到高兴，但后来开始向我透露，他非常害怕自己会失去控制，开始像以前一样饮食，并停止锻炼，这样会让他恢复到以前的体重和不适感。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I said, "Well, all the things you're doing are in the direction of health.
我说：“好吧，你所做的一切都是为了健康。
None of what you're doing speaks to the possibility of this all crumbling." This was the dissolve into a puddle of my own tears kind of narrative, but at this point, coming from him, and he just said, "I know, but despite doing all the right things, I'm still incredibly afraid that it's going to happen." It was as if the beliefs and the internal narratives hadn't changed despite the fact that he was engaging in the world differently and more positively.
你所做的一切都没有表明这一切有可能崩溃。”这是我自己泪水化为一滩的叙述，但在这一点上，来自他，他只是说，“我知道，但尽管做了所有正确的事情，我仍然非常害怕它会发生。”尽管他以不同的方式、更积极地参与这个世界，但信念和内心的叙述似乎没有改变。
I haven't checked in with him recently to find out where he's at with this now, several years later.
几年后，我最近没有与他联系，以了解他现在的处境。
He has kept off most of the weight, not all of it.
他减掉了大部分体重，但不是全部。
He gained a little bit back, but he's still far healthier than he ever was.
他恢复了一些，但仍然比以前健康得多。
So hopefully he's experienced some relief.
所以希望他能得到一些缓解。
But what do you tell a patient who is saying, "I've got this loop in my head that tells me I'm not good enough," or that even when things are going well, they're going to return to that state that I fear so much once again?
但是，当患者说“我脑子里有一个循环，告诉我我不够好”，或者即使事情进展顺利，他们也会再次回到我非常害怕的状态时，你该怎么告诉他呢？
This kind of lack of agency, right?
这种缺乏代理的情况，对吗？
Just lack of agency, lack of agency, lack of empowerment.
只是缺乏代理，缺乏代理，缺乏授权。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What sorts of practical tools can one give themselves or that you would provide to somebody?
人们可以为自己提供哪些实用工具，或者您愿意为某人提供哪些实用工具？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
No matter what is behind what's going on in that person's mind, it's addressable, but you don't know what it is and how to address it until we ask the question of what's going on inside, right?
无论那个人的头脑中正在发生什么，它都是可以解决的，但你不知道它是什么以及如何解决它，直到我们问内心正在发生什么的问题，对吗？
So if he's afraid that he's going to gain all that weight back, right, and he has a history that if significant negative things happen, he throws self-care to the wind, right?
所以，如果他担心自己的体重会反弹，对吧，而且他有这样的历史：如果发生重大的负面事情，他就会把自我照顾抛到九霄云外，对吗？
Then we'd come at it through that pattern, right?
然后我们就会通过这种模式来实现它，对吗？
Because he would have a good reason to be worried, right?
因为他有充分的理由担心，对吗？
Because this pattern of something bad happens, and I don't take care of myself for six months.
因为这种不好的事情发生了，我六个月都不能照顾自己。
I'm just making this up, but maybe someone in his life is ill, or he's fearing a death.
我只是编造的，但也许他生命中的某个人病了，或者他害怕死亡。
And if it's just something that would say, that's a very legitimate fear to have.
如果这只是想说的话，那么这种恐惧是非常合理的。
Let's talk about that.
我们来谈谈这个吧。
Let's look at where that comes from.
让我们看看它是从哪里来的。
Right?
正确的？
What got that person into that pattern in the first place, right?
是什么让那个人首先陷入这种模式，对吗？
By understanding the pattern and by working together, right, can we stave that off, right?
通过理解这种模式并共同努力，我们可以避免这种情况，对吗？
But it could be different.
但情况可能会有所不同。
The person might say, "Well, I'm having a lot of food cravings, right?" And we're like, "Okay, well, what does that mean?
这个人可能会说：“好吧，我很想吃东西，对吗？”我们会想，“好吧，这是什么意思？
Where's that coming from?" Or maybe he's depressed and he's getting depressed, and when he's depressed, he can't stop eating more, right?
这是从哪里来的？”或者也许他很沮丧，而且他正在变得沮丧，而当他沮丧时，他就无法停止吃更多的东西，对吧？
So you would look.
所以你会看。
Or it might just be plain old fear.
或者这可能只是普通的恐惧。
Like, this is so good, right, that I'm worried it will go away, right?
就像，这太好了，对吧，我担心它会消失，对吧？
Then we might want to reinforce, like, okay, you're a person who's able to use circumspection and perseverance and preserve goodness, right?
然后我们可能想强化，比如，好吧，你是一个能够谨慎、坚持并保持善良的人，对吗？
So you do that, and you do that really well.
所以你就这么做了，而且做得非常好。
So let's make sure we're doing that here, right?
所以让我们确保我们在这里这样做，对吧？
So a lot of times, a person is worried, but that worry is coming through the lens of health.
所以很多时候，一个人会担心，但这种担心是通过健康的角度来表现的。
Like, they're healthy, right?
就像，他们很健康，对吧？
So then we look at, okay, can we soothe that worry?
然后我们看看，好吧，我们能缓解这种担忧吗？
Where's that coming from, right?
那是从哪里来的，对吗？
We can come at it and reinforce the positive.
我们可以抓住这一点并强化积极的一面。
But if there is something negative, there's a trauma-driven cycle, there's depression, there are cravings.
但如果有负面的东西，那就是创伤驱动的循环、抑郁、渴望。
We can understand that, too.
我们也可以理解这一点。
So I come back to this idea that there's answers to just about everything, and in a very regimented, scientific way, it's not that hard to come to them, right?
所以我回到这个想法，即几乎所有事情都有答案，并且以一种非常严格的、科学的方式，找到它们并不难，对吗？
Just like in physical medicine, we have the tools that we need to bring to bear, but you have to understand the person.
就像物理医学一样，我们有需要使用的工具，但你必须了解这个人。
Again, if you come in and say, "I'm not feeling good," and someone else comes in and says, "I'm not feeling good," the doctor better not do the same things, right?
再说一遍，如果你进来说“我感觉不舒服”，而其他人进来说“我感觉不舒服”，那么医生最好不要做同样的事情，对吧？
As is, how are you not feeling good?
就这样，你怎么感觉不舒服？
Okay, let me understand that, and then let me map that also to you.
好的，让我理解这一点，然后让我也将其映射给您。
Whatever underlying state of health you may have or diagnoses you may have.
无论您可能有什么潜在的健康状况或您可能有什么诊断。
The same is true in mental health.
心理健康也是如此。
If we just apply that, then it's remarkable the good that we do, which I've seen very consistently across 20 years of doing this.
如果我们只是应用这一点，那么我们所做的善事就非常了不起，我在 20 年的这样做中一直看到这一点。
Not only in my own practice, but who are the people who do really, really well trying to understand and take care of people, including sometimes not doing too much and realizing, like, hey, this person is okay.
不仅在我自己的实践中，而且谁是真正非常努力地理解和照顾别人的人，包括有时不做太多并意识到，就像，嘿，这个人还不错。
There's a state of health here, but this person is worried.
这里的健康状况良好，但这个人很担心。
How do we reassure them, right?
我们如何让他们放心，对吗？
How do we help someone living a good life live a better life, right?
我们如何帮助过着美好生活的人过上更好的生活，对吗？
If we're going to do all of this, we have to approach people as individuals.
如果我们要做这一切，我们就必须以个体的方式对待人们。
The science tells us that, and common sense tells us that, too.
科学告诉我们这一点，常识也告诉我们这一点。
But if we do that, a person can get to the place they want to be.
但如果我们这样做，一个人就能到达他们想去的地方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to address a different person as an example.
我想以另一个人为例。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A hypothetical person.
一个假设的人。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm certain there are many, many of these people out there.
我确信这样的人有很多很多。
These are the sorts of people that think, okay, there's a self and a mind and an unconscious mind, et cetera, but at some level, why not just do what needs to be done in life?
这些人认为，好吧，有一个自我、一个思想和一个无意识的思想，等等，但在某种程度上，为什么不只做生活中需要做的事情呢？
The people that don't want to explore the self.
那些不想探索自我的人。
Because to me, it seems so absolutely clear that just as it's important to have a certain level of endurance, strength, flexibility so that one can extract the most joy and agency and gratitude and empowerment and humility from life, that it makes sense to explore the self, to ask, where am I internally strong?
因为对我来说，似乎非常清楚，拥有一定水平的耐力、力量、灵活性非常重要，这样一个人才能从生活中获得最大的快乐、动力、感恩、赋权和谦逊，探索自我、问自己内心强大在哪里是有意义的？
Where am I internally weak?
我内心哪里软弱了？
Where might I perceive myself as strong where as I'm actually weak, right?
我可能在哪些方面认为自己很强大，而实际上我很弱，对吧？
These seem very important, if not crucial questions to ask.
这些问题即使不是至关重要的，也是非常重要的。
But I know that there are a certain number of people in the world who think all of that is just kind of a waste of time, right?
但我知道世界上有一定数量的人认为所有这些只是浪费时间，对吗？
It's all about doing stuff.
一切都是为了做事。
Why explore the self?
为什么要探索自我？
And I think the rest of us are looking at that person often and thinking, well, you're exactly the kind of person that needs to do this because of the ways that you grate on other people.
我认为我们其他人经常看着那个人，然后想，好吧，你正是那种需要这样做的人，因为你的方式惹恼了别人。
But not always, right?
但并非总是如此，对吧？
Sometimes these people just appear to be just very effective.
有时这些人看起来非常高效。
They're all about the outward expression of what they're doing.
它们都是关于他们正在做的事情的外在表达。
And I certainly don't know how other people feel waking up in the morning and going to sleep at night and throughout the day.
我当然不知道其他人早上醒来、晚上睡觉以及全天感觉如何。
But to the person that ...
但对于那个人来说...
feels like introspection and exploring, maybe even excavating for trauma that they haven't been in touch with or haven't dealt with yet.
感觉像是内省和探索，甚至可能挖掘他们尚未接触或尚未处理的创伤。
For the person that feels that all of that is not really worth the effort and that it's all about action, what can we say to that person or those people?
对于那些觉得所有这些都不值得付出努力并且一切都与行动有关的人，我们可以对那个人或那些人说什么？
Put differently, does one need to change and need to believe in the power of these sorts of approaches in order for them to work?
换句话说，人们是否需要改变并需要相信这些方法的力量才能发挥作用？
We often hear that people don't change until they want to change.
我们经常听说人们只有想改变才会改变。
And could we also say perhaps that even for the people that feel like they're functioning extremely well in all domains of life, I know no such people.
我们是否也可以说，即使对于那些感觉自己在生活的各个领域都表现得非常出色的人，我也不认识这样的人。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I know some very high-achieving people-
我认识一些非常有成就的人-
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as you do too.
就像你一样。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know no such people.
我不认识这样的人。
The only people who seem to exist in that sphere are the clear narcissists, that to them just seem like they're doing great, but everyone else can't stand them.
似乎唯一存在于这个领域的人是明显的自恋者，对他们来说，他们似乎做得很好，但其他人都无法忍受他们。
By the way, narcissists, no one else can stand you.
顺便说一句，自恋者，没有人能忍受你。
What do we say to those individuals?
我们对这些人说什么？
Because I think it's a big swath of humanity, and I think it accounts for a lot of suffering in the world, including their own suffering.
因为我认为这是人类的很大一部分，我认为它造成了世界上的许多苦难，包括他们自己的苦难。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So I would make an appeal to common sense, right?
所以我会诉诸常识，对吧？
So imagine you take someone who doesn't know anything about health.
想象一下，你带了一个对健康一无所知的人。
They don't know how to exercise, they don't know how to eat well.
他们不知道如何锻炼，不知道如何吃得好。
They just don't know, and they're really, really unhealthy.
他们只是不知道，而且他们真的非常不健康。
They're overweight, they have low energy, they have sleep apnea, they don't need to have...
他们超重，他们精力不足，他们有睡眠呼吸暂停，他们不需要……
And why not just say to them, "Well, just go be different.
为什么不直接对他们说：“好吧，那就与众不同吧。
In fact, be different now.
事实上，现在有所不同。
Why aren't you different right now?" Of course, we would never do that because it's absurd.
你现在怎么不一样了？”当然，我们永远不会这样做，因为这是荒谬的。
Oh, and by the way, it also would be cruel.
哦，顺便说一句，这也很残酷。
So it's absurd and it's cruel, so we would never do that.
所以这是荒谬的，也是残酷的，所以我们永远不会这样做。
Let's say we fast-forward some period of months, say, just make it up.
假设我们快进几个月，然后弥补一下。
And we see that person and wow, they are much healthier.
我们看到那个人，哇，他们健康多了。
They have much more energy.
他们有更多的能量。
They've lost weight.
他们减肥了。
They're physically fit.
他们身体健康。
A lot will have gone on in between those two snapshots of that person.
在那个人的两张快照之间会发生很多事情。
That person has to learn a lot.
那个人必须学习很多东西。
How does one take care of oneself?
一个人如何照顾自己？
Then more specifically, how do I take care of myself?
那么更具体地说，我该如何照顾自己？
What healthy foods will I like?
我会喜欢什么健康食品？
What healthy foods will I eat?
我会吃哪些健康食品？
How will I put that on the table?
我该如何把它放在桌子上？
What kind of exercises can work for me?
什么样的练习适合我？
How will they work for me?
他们将如何为我工作？
How do I strengthen muscle?
我如何增强肌肉？
How do I strengthen the heart?
怎样才能强化心脏呢？
How do I increase lung capacity?
如何增加肺活量？
There's learning, there's diligence, there's stick-to-it-iveness.
有学习，有勤奋，有坚持。
There's resilience.
有韧性。
That's how the person gets there.
这就是这个人到达那里的方式。
It's no different when it's mental health.
心理健康方面也没有什么不同。
If we say, well, you feel different across the board, or you feel superior across the board, or whatever it is.
如果我们说，嗯，你在各方面都感觉不同，或者你在各方面都感觉优越，或者无论是什么。
Life isn't going well, and you don't have things you want, and the self-talk is negative, and we say, "Well, look, well, just be different right now." It's remarkable that people will say that at times, not just in a way that's denigrating and awful for others, but to themselves, too.
生活并不顺利，你没有想要的东西，自言自语是消极的，我们说，“好吧，看看，好吧，现在就改变一下吧。”值得注意的是，人们有时会这样说，不仅是对其他人来说是一种诽谤和可怕的方式，而且对他们自己也是如此。
I hear people say this most often to themselves.
我听到人们最常对自己说这句话。
Like, "Why am I not just different?
就像，“为什么我不只是与众不同？
I want to be different," or, "What's wrong with me that I'm not?" And I'm like, yeah, it's like everything else.
我想与众不同，”或者，“我有什么问题而我却没有？”我想，是的，就像其他一切一样。
You have to apply understanding and work and effort.
你必须运用理解、工作和努力。
The good news is you can get to whatever change you want.
好消息是您可以实现任何您想要的改变。
A person can get to whatever reasonable change that person wants.
一个人可以得到他想要的任何合理的改变。
I'm 54 years old, I'm not going to climb Mount Everest.
我54岁了，我不会去攀登珠穆朗玛峰。
I'm not a mountain climber.
我不是登山者。
But if I want to learn to climb some mountains, I want to get out there and do some things, I can go do that.
但如果我想学爬一些山，我想出去做一些事情，我可以去做。
The same thing is true with our mental health goals, but not at the snap of a finger, not by magic.
我们的心理健康目标也是如此，但不是弹指一挥间，也不是魔法。
It's through applying the same science and common sense, combination of science and common sense, that we apply to other things.
通过应用相同的科学和常识，科学和常识的结合，我们可以应用于其他事物。
That's why we go through this procedure of unconscious mind, conscious mind, the structure and function of the self, because that's how it's done.
这就是为什么我们要经历无意识思维、有意识思维、自我的结构和功能的这个过程，因为它就是这样完成的。
That's how the after snapshot looks different than the before, from the mental health perspective as well.
从心理健康的角度来看，这就是之后的快照看起来与之前的不同之处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's very helpful, and I think it's going to be very helpful to a lot of people in thinking about what to think about.
这非常有帮助，我认为这对很多人思考要思考的事情非常有帮助。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What sorts of questions to address, maybe even whether or not to get therapy.
要解决什么样的问题，甚至可能是否接受治疗。
And hopefully, will remap their notions of therapy.
希望他们能够重新规划他们的治疗理念。
Of course, this critically relies on the therapist being good to excellent.
当然，这很大程度上取决于治疗师的优秀程度。
I think in the previous sit-down we had in the episode on trauma, specifically, you mapped out a number of the features of quality therapy.
我想在之前我们在创伤事件中的坐下来，特别是，你列出了优质治疗的一些特征。
So we can refer people to that if they're thinking about.
因此，如果人们正在考虑的话，我们可以建议他们参考一下。
It's time-stamped in that episode, what to look for in a therapist, how to assess whether or not it's going well or not, whether or not to move on or stay put with that therapist, and so on.
它在那一集中打上了时间戳，在治疗师那里寻找什么，如何评估治疗进展是否顺利，是否继续或留在该治疗师那里，等等。
You've been telling us a lot about the structure of the self.
你已经告诉我们很多关于自我结构的事情。
Unconscious mind, conscious mind, defense mechanisms, character structure, self.
无意识思维、意识思维、防御机制、性格结构、自我。
We haven't talked so much about the function of self.
我们还没有过多讨论 self 的功能。
I realize it's been woven in here or there.
我意识到它已经被编织在这里或那里。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could you tell us about the function of self?
您能告诉我们自我的功能吗？
Are the functions of self verb actions?
自动词动作有功能吗？
Are these things that we are all doing right now that reflect our character structure?
我们现在所做的这些事情是否反映了我们的性格结构？
Are these things that we can change more readily than trying to snap our fingers and say, "Okay, I'm now going to be a more altruistic person." Because I can decide that right now, but then ultimately, I have to engage in some altruistic behaviors to lend support to that.
这些事情是不是我们可以比打响指说“好吧，我现在要成为一个更无私的人”更容易改变。因为我现在就可以决定，但最终，我必须采取一些利他行为来支持这一点。
Again, same with the parallel that I can't just snap my fingers and say, "Lower blood pressure." I have to do some meditative practices, some cardiovascular training, and things of that sort.
同样，与我不能只是打响指说“降低血压”的相似之处一样。我必须做一些冥想练习、一些心血管训练等等。
What is this function of self thing?
self这个东西的功能是什么？
What goes into the functions of self?
自我的功能包含哪些内容？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Okay.
好的。
So just stepping back to the framing.
所以只是回到框架。
So there are these two pillars upon which we build our lives.
因此，我们的生活就建立在这两个支柱之上。
The structure of self And the function of self.
自我的结构和自我的功能。
And we've been talking, as you said, more about the structure, which is more the nouns of it.
正如你所说，我们一直在更多地谈论结构，更多的是它的名词。
Like there is an unconscious.
仿佛有一种无意识。
What is in that unconscious?
那无意识里到底是什么？
For example, there are defense mechanisms.
例如，有防御机制。
How are we using them?
我们如何使用它们？
It's not all nouns, but it's more what are those things?
不全是名词，更重要的是那些东西是什么？
And then we start talking about how we put them into practice.
然后我们开始讨论如何将它们付诸实践。
The function of self is much more the verbs.
自我的功能更多的是动词。
So if the structure is more nouns, the function is more the verbs.
因此，如果结构更多的是名词，那么功能更多的是动词。
The actual engagement.
实际参与。
So that would start with an awareness of I.
所以这要从对“我”的认识开始。
So a function of self has to start with an awareness that there's a person.
因此，自我的功能必须从意识到有一个人开始。
There is a me that is separate from others, and I have responsibility for this I.
有一个与他人分离的我，我对这个我负有责任。
It is me.
是我。
No one else is guiding it.
没有其他人在指导它。
It's me.
这就是我。
I know there's a me.
我知道有一个我
Then on top of that, we start seeing defense mechanisms in action.
然后最重要的是，我们开始看到防御机制发挥作用。
Because if we're thinking about function, we're aware that there's an I, but the first thing that starts happening to that I are unconscious things.
因为如果我们思考功能，我们就会意识到有一个“我”，但首先发生在“我”上的事情是无意识的事情。
So the defense mechanisms, because we're not choosing them, they start doing things automatically.
因此，防御机制，因为我们没有选择它们，所以它们开始自动做事。
So if, for example, I have a defense of avoidance, then I'm not thinking if it's I'd like to meet a new person, but I automatically am shying away, then it's not good.
因此，例如，如果我有回避的防御，那么我不会想我是否想认识一个新人，但我会自动回避，那么这就不好了。
It's a factor.
这是一个因素。
But it's a factor I'm not aware of until I start this process of introspecting.
但在我开始内省之前，我并没有意识到这个因素。
So the defense mechanisms are then kind of determining the lay of the land.
因此，防御机制在某种程度上决定了地形。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So in that example, I'm sorry to interrupt, but-
所以在那个例子中，我很抱歉打扰，但是-
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yeah, please.
是的，请。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
sorry to interrupt, but in that example, the turning away you describe as reflexive.
抱歉打扰，但在那个例子中，你将转身视为条件反射。
So you're talking about someone perhaps who would like to have a romantic partner or meet somebody, have a companion, and they go to the grocery store and somebody says something as they're reaching for the milk, and there's that moment of opportunity where they could say something back, but instead they just kind of go, "Oh, yeah, thanks," and then they kind of move away.
所以你说的是一个人，可能想要一个浪漫的伴侣，或者想见一个人，有一个伴侣，他们去杂货店，有人在他们伸手去拿牛奶时说了些什么，有那么一个机会，他们可以回嘴，但他们只是说，“哦，是的，谢谢，”然后他们就走开了。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then the narrative in their head might be, "Oh, gosh, that was silly." But they don't really think about the alternate possibility.
然后他们脑海中的叙述可能是，“哦，天哪，那太愚蠢了。”但他们并没有真正考虑另一种可能性。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Or there might be no narrative.
或者可能没有叙述。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They head off to the produce section.
他们前往农产品区。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And then they go home and someone says, "Oh, did anything happen at the grocery?
然后他们回家，有人说：“哦，杂货店发生什么事了吗？
You meet anyone at the grocery store?" "No." Because-
你在杂货店遇见什么人了？” “不。”因为——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's all unconscious.
都是无意识的。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Now, again, can we explore that and change that?
现在，我们可以再次探索并改变它吗？
Yes.
是的。
But it's important to understand that whatever that nest of defense mechanisms is, that's what I've got right now.
但重要的是要明白，无论防御机制的巢穴是什么，这就是我现在所拥有的。
And I'm living through that right now.
我现在正在经历这个过程。
It's performing a function.
它正在执行一个功能。
Just because it's an unconscious function doesn't mean it's not a very important function.
仅仅因为它是无意识的功能并不意味着它不是一个非常重要的功能。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I can see in that example how it protects the conscious mind from risk, because there's always the possibility of rejection, there's a possibility of over-interpretation of what the other person is talking to them for.
我可以在那个例子中看到它如何保护意识免受风险，因为总是有拒绝的可能性，有可能过度解释对方与他们交谈的目的。
Like, is the person interested in them or whether or not this is just friendly banter of the sort that anyone would have next to anybody, that it's not special to them.
比如，这个人是否对他们感兴趣，或者这是否只是任何人旁边都会有的那种友好的玩笑，这对他们来说并不特别。
So I can see how the unconscious turning away is protective against all the negative possibilities.
所以我可以看到无意识的转身是如何防御所有负面的可能性的。
And in some sense, it's pretty rational because the probability that that one interaction could ratchet up to a life of companionship and romance with somebody is exceedingly small, really.
从某种意义上说，这是相当合理的，因为一次互动能够逐渐发展为与某人的陪伴和浪漫生活的可能性确实非常小。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Although you could imagine a set of data points where you string together five-second clips, all the times something like that has happened.
尽管您可以想象一组数据点，将五秒的剪辑串在一起，但类似的事情总是发生。
So maybe this is a person that intermittently, people are interested in them or saying, "Hey," or saying hello or showing interest.
所以也许这个人会间歇性地被人们感兴趣，或者说，“嘿”，或者打招呼，或者表现出兴趣。
You could string all those together, and the person hasn't noticed one of them.
你可以把所有这些串在一起，而这个人却没有注意到其中的一个。
And then could have a very negative see.
然后可能会有非常负面的看法。
Nobody.
没有人。
No one wants me.
没有人想要我。
No one's interested in me, or whatever the person is saying.
没有人对我或这个人所说的任何事情感兴趣。
But it's different if you see from the outside.
但如果从外面看就不一样了。
It's objectively different.
客观上是不同的。
But that person doesn't know.
但那个人不知道。
And that's why after an awareness, there is an I, the next thing that I think of in the function of self is the defense mechanisms in action.
这就是为什么在意识之后，有一个“我”，我在自我功能中想到的下一件事情是正在发挥作用的防御机制。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What are some other examples of defense mechanisms in action?
防御机制发挥作用的其他例子还有哪些？
Because I think there's immense interest in this.
因为我认为人们对此非常感兴趣。
The idea that we have unconscious processes in us that are reaching up out of the iceberg and preventing us from seeing our life and ourselves the way that it actually is occurring, and perhaps preventing us from achieving these ideals of agency and gratitude, empowerment and humility.
这种想法认为，我们体内有无意识的过程，这些过程正在从冰山中伸出，阻止我们以实际发生的方式看待我们的生活和我们自己，并且可能阻止我们实现这些代理和感恩、赋权和谦逊的理想。
These seem like very powerful and important forces.
这些似乎是非常强大和重要的力量。
And I, and I know many other people out there, want to understand whether or not what we're doing and what we're feeling and experiencing, whether or not that is serving us well or not.
我和我认识的许多其他人都想了解我们正在做的事情以及我们的感受和经历是否对我们有好处。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
So I think the place to start is to say that there's something very complicated going on.
所以我认为首先要说的是，正在发生一些非常复杂的事情。
The part of the iceberg underneath the surface, that biological supercomputer that's running at a million thoughts and a million actions and a million internal processes a second, is constantly shifting our defensive structure.
冰山表面之下的部分，即每秒运行一百万个想法、一百万个行动和一百万个内部进程的生物超级计算机，正在不断改变我们的防御结构。
So it's complicated, and you can almost imagine that one leaves and another comes in and they're shifting, and there's a little bit of one and some of another.
所以这很复杂，你几乎可以想象一个人离开，另一个人进来，他们在移动，有一点点，有一点点。
So it's a very complicated process, but we can look at it and understand.
所以这是一个非常复杂的过程，但是我们可以看看并理解。
So an example of a defense mechanism that's very common and can cause us a lot of problems is projection.
因此，防御机制的一个非常常见且可能给我们带来很多问题的例子就是投射。
So I'll give two examples of projection.
所以我将给出两个投影的例子。
So one is the experience of sitting in a car and being stuck in traffic, being a little bit late, and feeling beleaguered.
一种是坐在车里，堵在路上，迟到了一点，感到被围困的经历。
This has happened to me more times than I can count, but at some point, I started, through my own therapy, looking at what's going on in me when I'm doing this.
这种情况在我身上发生的次数多得我无法计算，但在某个时候，我开始通过自己的治疗，看看当我这样做时我体内发生了什么。
So the thing about feeling beleaguered, as if What does that mean?
那么，感到被围困的感觉是什么意思呢？
There's something called traffic that exists and has a mind and wants to thwart me?
有一种叫做交通的东西存在并且有思想并且想要阻止我？
Is it individual cars?
是个别车吗？
Is it the people in the cars?
是车里的人吗？
What's going on is I'm having a perception of hostility.
发生的事情是我有一种敌意的感觉。
I feel beleaguered.
我感觉自己被围困了。
But it's anger and frustration inside of me.
但这是我内心的愤怒和沮丧。
I'm the one feeling angry and frustrated.
我是那个感到愤怒和沮丧的人。
There's no one and nothing but me that's feeling anything about this.
除了我之外，没有人、没有人对此有任何感觉。
But I have this sense of the world around me being hostile because I'm projecting my anger outward.
但我感觉周围的世界充满敌意，因为我将愤怒向外投射。
Now, think, this isn't good because instead of sitting in traffic and saying, "Look, maybe it totally makes sense that I'm stuck in traffic and that I'm not happy.
现在，想一想，这不好，因为不要坐在车流中说：“看，也许我遇到交通堵塞并且我不开心是完全有道理的。
Maybe I should leave a little bit earlier and I wouldn't be late." Or if I'm going to work, should I live closer to work?
也许我应该早点出发，这样就不会迟到了。”或者如果我要去工作，我应该住得离工作地点近一点吗？
I could make a whole set of decisions that I'm not making.
我可以做出一整套我没有做出的决定。
Or maybe I thought it was going to be a 15-minute drive, and there was an accident.
或者我以为开车要15分钟，结果发生了事故。
And okay, there are things that I can't control.
好吧，有些事情是我无法控制的。
Am I supposed to control everything?
我应该控制一切吗？
If you think about what can I control, being aware of that, and what can I not control, then it can make the situation much better so this doesn't happen with this frequency.
如果你考虑一下我可以控制什么，意识到这一点，以及我不能控制什么，那么它可以使情况变得更好，这样就不会以这种频率发生这种情况。
And it also takes away the anger and the frustration.
它还消除了愤怒和沮丧。
So I think that's a good example because it happens a lot.
所以我认为这是一个很好的例子，因为这种情况经常发生。
It's very common.
这很常见。
But projection then also happens with people.
但投射也会发生在人身上。
So let's say you and I work together, and we're going to do something collaborative together.
假设你和我一起工作，我们将一起合作做一些事情。
And I'm just not having a good day, and something negative happened before I came to work, and I'm not at my best, and I'm a little bit irritable and frustrated.
我只是今天过得不太好，在上班之前发生了一些消极的事情，我没有处于最佳状态，我有点烦躁和沮丧。
This happens all the time, where then the person sits down with someone, and then I'm being irritable and frustrated, which doesn't feel good to you.
这种情况经常发生，当那个人与某人坐下来时，我就会变得烦躁和沮丧，这对你来说感觉不太好。
And you may become irritable and frustrated, and then I say, "Oh, look, he's irritable and frustrated." But even if you don't, the fact that I feel that way, that projection often would lead me to think that it's you who's that way.
你可能会变得烦躁和沮丧，然后我说，“哦，看，他很烦躁和沮丧。”但即使你不这么认为，事实上我有这样的感觉，这种投射常常会让我认为你就是那样的人。
Here I come wanting to do this job, and you're not at your best.
我来这里是想做这份工作，而你还没有处于最佳状态。
It's me who's not at my best.
是我没处于最佳状态。
But we do this all the time, and then we make incorrect or inaccurate attributions.
但我们总是这样做，然后我们就会做出错误或不准确的归因。
So projection is an example of a defense mechanism that can cause us a lot of trouble.
因此，投影是防御机制的一个例子，它会给我们带来很多麻烦。
A lot of trouble.
很麻烦。
Another can be displacement, where if I'm feeling anger or frustration, say, in a certain realm, then the idea of feeling it at work and then kicking the dog.
另一个可能是位移，如果我在某个领域感到愤怒或沮丧，那么我就会在工作中感受到它，然后踢狗。
It's not good that we do that.
我们这样做是不好的。
We're not acknowledging what's going on inside of us at work, what we could change, what we could make better, and the dog doesn't want to be kicked.
我们没有意识到工作中我们内心发生了什么，我们可以改变什么，我们可以做得更好，而狗不想被踢。
And the dog is often also the family.
狗往往也是家人。
And it could be physical, or it could be through words.
它可以是身体上的，也可以是通过言语的。
But the idea that there's something negative being generated in us, but inside, we're perceiving that it's coming from somewhere else.
但我们内心产生了一些负面的想法，但在内心，我们感知到它来自其他地方。
The thought being it's all things to lead us astray when they're negative defenses.
我们的想法是，当它们是消极防御时，所有的事情都会让我们误入歧途。
There can be positive defenses, too, such as altruism.
也可以有积极的防御，例如利他主义。
That someone could do something negative to me, and instead of me passing that along, I could decide, no, I'm going to do something nice for the next person I have an opportunity to do something nice for.
有人可能会对我做一些负面的事情，我可以决定，不，我要为下一个我有机会为之做好事的人做一些好事，而不是我把它传递下去。
That's a defense.
那是一种防御。
Sometimes we could think of it and decide that way, but there are people who react that way.
有时我们可以这样想并做出这样的决定，但有些人会那样反应。
There's something negative that happens, and they respond with something that's different from that.
发生了一些消极的事情，他们就会做出与此不同的反应。
So defense mechanisms can work against us.
因此防御机制可能对我们不利。
They can work for us.
他们可以为我们工作。
They're complicated.
它们很复杂。
There are combinations of them.
有它们的组合。
But we can look inside and say, for example, if I'm using projection all the time, and I think everyone around me is kind of always angry and frustrated and there's always bad traffic.
但我们可以审视内心并说，例如，如果我一直使用投影，我认为我周围的每个人总是感到愤怒和沮丧，并且交通总是很糟糕。
But then as we start to talk about it more, it becomes apparent that there's a lot I'm angry about.
但当我们开始更多地谈论它时，很明显我对很多事情感到愤怒。
But I'm not aware of it.
但我不知道。
Then reflection or therapy or a good friend we're talking to can help us see that, hey, this is going on inside of me.
然后反思、治疗或与我们交谈的好朋友可以帮助我们看到，嘿，这正在我的内心发生。
And that can really help us.
这确实可以帮助我们。
Same with use of humor.
幽默的运用也是如此。
If I'm using humor and I'm decompressing uncomfortable situations or things that make me feel uncomfortable, maybe that greases the wheels of social progress.
如果我用幽默来缓解不舒服的情况或让我感到不舒服的事情，也许这会促进社会进步。
But maybe over time, I come to use humor in a way that's self-denigrating.
但也许随着时间的推移，我开始以一种自我贬低的方式使用幽默。
Well, that's not so good anymore, but I may not be aware of the shift, just because I could maybe be funny in certain situations that I'm now not using that for myself anymore, I'm using it against myself.
好吧，这不再那么好了，但我可能没有意识到这种转变，只是因为在某些情况下我可能会很有趣，我现在不再用它来为自己服务，我正在用它来对付自己。
And by talking to people, by reflection, we can be aware of the defensive structure that's going on inside of us, and then there's not an automaticity to it.
通过与人交谈，通过反思，我们可以意识到我们内心正在发生的防御结构，然后它就不会自动发生。
If you point out that I'm using projection a lot, I can start to be aware of that.
如果你指出我经常使用投影，我就能开始意识到这一点。
Just like if someone, let's say you were with me at the grocery store, and someone says something nice, and I shy away, and you say, "Hey, you weren't even aware someone said hello to you." And then I say, "I want to be more aware of that.
就像有人，假设你和我一起在杂货店，有人说了一些好话，我回避了，你说，“嘿，你甚至不知道有人向你打招呼。”然后我说：“我想更加意识到这一点。
I don't want that thing to happen unconsciously." So maybe now I think, okay, any time someone I don't know says something to me, I'm going to just stop and think, what's going on here?
我不希望这种事情在不知不觉中发生。”所以也许现在我想，好吧，每当我不认识的人对我说些什么时，我都会停下来想一想，这里发生了什么事？
Is that person being friendly to me?
那个人对我友善吗？
Or it's just a person exchanging money at the cash register?
或者只是一个人在收银台兑换货币？
What's going on?
这是怎么回事？
So we take what's unconscious, and we make it conscious so that we can change it.
所以我们把无意识的东西变成有意识的，这样我们就可以改变它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sounds to me like exploring and thinking about our reflexes is what's really key here.
在我看来，探索和思考我们的反应才是真正的关键。
The example of displacement that you gave, kicking the dog, I couldn't help but smile.
你举的位移的例子，踢狗，我忍不住笑了。
Not because I think it's a good thing to do.
不是因为我认为这是一件好事。
I never once kicked my dog, by the way, folks.
顺便说一句，伙计们，我从来没有踢过我的狗。
Terrible thing to do.
可怕的事情要做。
Also, he was the size of a boulder.
而且，他的体型也有一块巨石那么大。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
He'd kick you back.
他会把你踢回来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It would've injured me more than it would've injured him, but I never would do such a thing.
这对我的伤害会比对他的伤害更大，但我永远不会做这样的事。
However, in academia, there's this phenomenon that's very common that I refer to as trickle-down anxiety, where the person running the laboratory is inevitably under a tremendous amount of stress, grants and papers, et cetera.
然而，在学术界，这种现象很常见，我称之为“涓滴焦虑”，实验室的负责人不可避免地承受着巨大的压力、资助和论文等等。
And graduate students and postdocs will immediately be familiar with what I'm describing.
研究生和博士后会立即熟悉我所描述的内容。
But for those of you that haven't gone to graduate school, this will be a little bit foreign, but you'll think of other examples where when the lab head is under stress, it's incredibly common for lab heads to walk through the laboratory and start asking about experiments and telling people to do additional experiments, and basically just assigning busy work to people or pressuring what simply cannot be moved along any faster.
但对于那些没有读过研究生的人来说，这可能有点陌生，但你会想到其他例子，当实验室负责人承受压力时，实验室负责人走进实验室并开始询问实验并告诉人们做额外的实验，基本上只是将繁忙的工作分配给人们或对根本无法更快地进行的事情施加压力。
And when I was a graduate student, I worked for somebody who was the exact opposite of this phenotype.
当我还是一名研究生时，我为一个与这种表型完全相反的人工作。
When I was a postdoc, frankly, I worked with someone who was a little bit of that phenotype, although I still liked working for him very much.
坦率地说，当我还是一名博士后时，我和一个有点这种表型的人一起工作，尽管我仍然非常喜欢为他工作。
But I used to have a response that, at least for me, was adaptive, which was, I would always say, "I'm working as fast as I carefully can." Because no scientist ever wants somebody to cut corners.
但我曾经有一个反应，至少对我来说是适应性的，我总是说，“我正在尽可能快地工作。”因为没有哪个科学家会希望有人走捷径。
No good scientist anyway.
反正也不是什么好科学家。
But trickle-down anxiety is common in every occupation, I think.
但我认为，滴流焦虑在每种职业中都很常见。
We see this sort of displacement all the time, where someone's anxious, and so they go start creating anxiety for other people.
我们一直看到这种转移，有人感到焦虑，所以他们开始给其他人制造焦虑。
As you're describing, I was just seeing how pathologic that is for everybody involved.
正如你所描述的，我只是看到这对每个参与其中的人来说是多么病态。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
So the academic, the trickle-down anxiety that you were just talking about is a related, but it's a different defense mechanism.
所以学术上，你刚才谈到的滴流焦虑是相关的，但它是一种不同的防御机制。
It's projective identification, right?
这是投射性认同，对吗？
Which is causing others to feel the way that you feel in order to get your needs met, right?
这会导致其他人以你的感受来满足你的需求，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is this a form of projection?
这是一种投影形式吗？
And actually, perhaps you could clarify the definition of projection versus displacement versus projective identification.
实际上，也许您可以澄清投影与位移与投影识别的定义。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yeah, so projection is when you don't own it.
是的，所以投影是当你不拥有它时。
So it's not me who's mad, it's you, right?
所以生气的不是我，是你，对吧？
So I don't own that I'm mad at all, right?
所以我根本不承认我生气了，对吧？
I just think that it's you, even though I'm the one who's mad, right?
我只是认为是你，尽管我是那个生气的人，对吗？
Displacement is what comes out of us, or our attribution can shift, right?
位移是我们自身产生的，或者我们的归因可以改变，对吧？
It's not this person who's making me angry, it's that person, because that's a safer person, right, to be angry at, right?
让我生气的不是这个人，而是那个人，因为那是一个更安全的人，对吧，对吧？
Or if I'm then going to take out my anger, right?
或者如果我要发泄我的愤怒，对吗？
Instead of metaphorically kicking the person who might respond to me in a way I don't want, maybe I kick the dog that's helpless to respond back, right?
与其隐喻地踢那些可能以我不想要的方式回应我的人，也许我会踢那只无助于回应的狗，对吗？
So that's displacement.
这就是位移。
Projective identification, there's an expression of an emotional state inside of a person that then becomes contagious to other people, even though the person isn't trying to do that.
投射性认同是一个人内心情绪状态的一种表达，这种情绪状态随后会传染给其他人，即使这个人并没有试图这样做。
If the person says, "I'm going to make you anxious," that's not a defense mechanism anymore, right?
如果这个人说，“我会让你焦虑”，这就不再是一种防御机制，对吗？
So here's an example, I think this is the best example of projective identification.
所以这是一个例子，我认为这是投射性认同的最好例子。
So for a little bit of time at work, I would occasionally lose my keys, right?
所以在工作的一段时间里，我偶尔会丢失钥匙，对吧？
So now I'm trying to go and I can't find my keys, right?
现在我正想走，却找不到钥匙，对吗？
So then I say, "Oh, I don't know where my keys are." So I start expressing something, right?
然后我说：“哦，我不知道我的钥匙在哪里。”所以我开始表达一些东西，对吗？
And I'm anxious and I'm tense, right?
我很焦虑，很紧张，对吗？
Now, people around me hear that, right?
现在，我周围的人都听到了，对吗？
And what do they start feeling?
他们开始有什么感觉？
They start feeling anxious and tense the way that I do, right?
他们开始像我一样感到焦虑和紧张，对吗？
And now they're like, well, now they want to find my keys, right?
现在他们就像，好吧，现在他们想找到我的钥匙，对吧？
They want to help me so that I stop spreading anxiety and tension into the whole environment around me, right?
他们想帮助我，让我停止向周围的整个环境传播焦虑和紧张，对吧？
So then they help me find my keys.
然后他们帮我找到我的钥匙。
I say thank you.
我说谢谢。
My own emotional state comes down.
我自己的情绪状态下降了。
And upon reflection, I think, look, I don't want to do that, right?
经过反思，我想，看，我不想这样做，对吗？
I'm getting my needs met by making other people feel in a way that's not a good or comfortable way to feel.
我通过让其他人感受到一种不好或不舒服的感觉来满足我的需求。
So here's a way around that.
所以这里有一个解决方法。
Put my keys in the same place every day, right?
每天把我的钥匙放在同一个地方，对吗？
So then I can avoid that because it doesn't feel good to me.
这样我就可以避免这种情况，因为这对我来说感觉不好。
Then if I get out to my car, I find I'm breathing a little heavy.
然后，如果我下车，我会发现我的呼吸有点粗重。
It doesn't feel good because I was just agitated, right?
感觉不太好，因为我只是很激动，对吗？
And I did that to other people, too, right?
我也对其他人做过这样的事，对吗？
So it's an example of how projective identification works, and it's kind of a simple example, but it shows it's happening all the time.
这是投射性认同如何运作的一个例子，虽然是一个简单的例子，但它表明它一直在发生。
All these things are happening all the time, but we can become aware of it, then I don't lose my keys.
所有这些事情一直在发生，但我们可以意识到它，然后我就不会丢失我的钥匙。
I don't have to feel bad about it.
我不必为此感到难过。
I don't have to activate myself for no reason, and I don't have to activate other people for no reason.
我不必无缘无故地激活自己，也不必无缘无故地激活别人。
So instead of thinking and reflecting, change that thing for the better, and it can deal with much bigger things, too.
因此，与其思考和反思，不如将事情变得更好，这样它也可以处理更大的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for those clarifications.
感谢您的澄清。
I'd like to touch on humor for a moment.
我想谈一下幽默。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Obviously, humor is a wonderful thing, or can be a wonderful thing.
显然，幽默是一件美妙的事情，或者可以是一件美妙的事情。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Can be.
可以。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've also seen a lot of examples of where very smart and/or accomplished people, because those are not always the same thing, use sarcasm as a form of humor, and it can be very funny.
我还见过很多非常聪明和/或有成就的人的例子，因为这些并不总是同一件事，使用讽刺作为幽默的一种形式，而且它可以非常有趣。
But I have to imagine, based on everything I'm hearing from you today, that there's a form of sarcasm which is an unhealthy defense.
但我必须想象，根据我今天从你那里听到的一切，有一种讽刺是一种不健康的防御。
I'm thinking of the person that no matter what someone else says that's positive or no matter what someone does that could be viewed as positive, they find some way to diminish it through sarcastic humor, right?
我在想这样的人，无论别人说什么是积极的，或者无论某人做了什么可能被视为积极的，他们都会找到某种方法通过讽刺幽默来削弱它，对吗？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see this a lot, and I think closely nested with sarcasm is cynicism.
我经常看到这种情况，我认为与讽刺密切相关的是犬儒主义。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In fact, I have a family member, I won't name who they are to protect the not so innocent, who used to be very cynical.
事实上，我有一个家庭成员，我不会说出他们是谁，以保护那些不那么无辜的人，他们曾经非常愤世嫉俗。
And I once asked, "What is the thing about cynicism?" And they said, "Well, I have had a particular genre of schooling growing up, a formal schooling, where if anyone behaved too happy, expressed too much happiness rather, too much delight, they were viewed as stupid." Like as if to be happy is to be unaware of the sophistication and the importance of things in life, right?
我曾经问过：“愤世嫉俗是怎么回事？”他们说：“嗯，我从小就接受过一种特殊的学校教育，一种正规的学校教育，如果有人表现得太快乐，表达出太多的幸福，而不是太多的快乐，他们就会被视为愚蠢的人。”好像幸福就是不知道生活中事物的复杂性和重要性，对吗？
And I hope that this is unrelatable to most people listening, but I do think that sarcasm is a double-edged blade-
我希望这与大多数听的人无关，但我确实认为讽刺是一把双刃剑——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in this sense, and that cynicism is perhaps a double-edged blade as well, but that it might even be worse than sarcasm because it's a way of really reflecting back what's, by definition, what's not good about life, what's not good about what's happening.
从这个意义上说，愤世嫉俗也许也是一把双刃剑，但它甚至可能比讽刺更糟糕，因为它是一种真正反思生活中不好的地方、正在发生的事情中不好的地方的一种方式。
And it does seem protective, right?
它看起来确实有保护作用，对吧？
It protects one from disappointment.
它可以保护一个人免于失望。
If you're already disappointed, how could you be further disappointed?
如果你已经失望了，你怎么会更失望呢？
It also seems to me like a bit of a power move.
在我看来，这也像是一种权力之举。
It's like, you're going to be happy?
就像，你会幸福吗？
Well, I'm going to take that away from everybody as something that's for myself.
好吧，我要把它从每个人身上夺走，作为我自己的东西。
Does any of this actually hold inside-
这些内容真的存在吗？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Oh, sure
哦，当然
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of the clinical literature?
临床文献？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because, again, I enjoy a good sarcastic joke.
因为，我再次喜欢讽刺笑话。
In fact, if there's a collaboration around a sarcastic joke, it can be truly funny to everybody.
事实上，如果围绕一个讽刺笑话进行合作，每个人都会觉得很有趣。
But sarcasm and cynicism, I feel like are often used to cut down what would otherwise be benevolence or bonding experiences.
但我觉得讽刺和愤世嫉俗常常被用来减少本来应该是仁慈或亲密的经历。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Look, I grew up in central New Jersey.
看，我在新泽西州中部长大。
Humor is a weapon, right?
幽默是一种武器，对吗？
Or it certainly can be, right?
或者它当然可以，对吧？
And people can be very aggressive through humor.
人们可以通过幽默变得非常具有攻击性。
So acting out, which is just letting our aggression flow, that's a defense.
所以表现出来，就是让我们的攻击性流动，这是一种防御。
So just being aggressive and pushing someone back, however that means.
因此，无论这意味着什么，只要表现出攻击性并迫使某人退缩即可。
If I don't feel good about myself, I want you to feel not so good about yourself is where we start getting into envy.
如果我对自己感觉不好，我希望你对自己感觉不太好，这就是我们开始嫉妒的地方。
And humor can be used that way.
幽默可以这样使用。
So, that sort of biting, sarcastic humor is a form of acting out.
所以，那种尖刻、讽刺的幽默是一种表现形式。
It's a form of aggression.
这是一种侵略形式。
It's not humor as a healthy defense.
这不是一种健康的防御方式，而是幽默。
We can call it the same thing, but we could also call it different things.
我们可以称其为同一事物，但也可以称其为不同的事物。
It's just a nuance of our language.
这只是我们语言的细微差别。
If humor can be a defense, like I trip and fall, I make a little joke, people are laughing with me instead of at me.
如果幽默可以成为一种防御，就像我绊倒和摔倒一样，我开个小玩笑，人们就会和我一起笑，而不是嘲笑我。
Hey, humor's a good defense.
嘿，幽默是一种很好的防御。
I made myself feel better, it made things flow more easily.
我让自己感觉更好，这让事情变得更容易。
But if I'm using sarcastic humor to assail someone, then it's not that thing anymore.
但如果我用讽刺的幽默来攻击某人，那就不再是那样了。
Now it's a manifestation of aggression.
现在这是侵略性的表现。
And the idea that cynicism is more-- Then we're talking about a worldview.
愤世嫉俗的想法更多的是——然后我们谈论的是世界观。
Sarcasm is something that can be done now.
讽刺是现在就可以做的事情。
We can make a sarcastic joke, funny or not, then it's over.
我们可以开个讽刺的玩笑，不管好笑与否，然后就结束了。
But cynicism is a way of coming at the world that is a different kind of defense.
但犬儒主义是一种看待世界的方式，是一种不同的防御方式。
The idea that, hey, it's like the fox and the sour grapes.
这个想法，嘿，就像狐狸和酸葡萄一样。
I don't think there's anything good to be had anyway.
反正我觉得也没有什么好东西。
So you can't take anything away from me.
所以你不能从我这里夺走任何东西。
You can't make me feel worse.
你不能让我感觉更糟。
I already feel very, very bad about the world and about everybody in it, and I'm protecting myself that way.
我已经对这个世界和其中的每个人感到非常非常糟糕，我正在以这种方式保护自己。
That's then an unhealthy defense, because what does that lead to?
这就是一种不健康的防守，因为这会导致什么呢？
It leads to isolation, it leads to mistrust.
它导致孤立，导致不信任。
We know that people are happy if they live through altruism and gratitude, and they're well-connected with others.
我们知道，如果人们生活在利他主义和感恩之中，并且与他人有良好的联系，他们就会感到幸福。
So the cynical point of view, which again, to some degree, being in the world builds some cynicism in us.
因此，愤世嫉俗的观点，在某种程度上，在这个世界上又在我们身上建立了一些愤世嫉俗的观点。
That's okay.
没关系。
That's just a part of awareness in some sense.
从某种意义上说，这只是意识的一部分。
But I think what you're talking about is a very pervasive cynicism that then is an unhealthy defense that is very harmful to others.
但我认为你所说的是一种非常普遍的愤世嫉俗，这是一种不健康的防御，对他人非常有害。
The idea that I feel lousy about everything, and if you don't, I'm going to try and bring you down.
我对一切都感觉很糟糕，如果你不这样做，我会尽力让你失望。
Like too much happiness.
喜欢太多的幸福。
We'll label that as something.
我们会将其标记为某物。
We could label it as stupid.
我们可以给它贴上愚蠢的标签。
So now it's like it's not okay to be happier than some sort of cynical baseline.
所以现在看来，比某种愤世嫉俗的基线更快乐是不行的。
And again, there's nothing about altruism and gratitude.
再说一次，这里没有任何利他主义和感恩之心。
That's not happy.
那不高兴。
Who's happy in that situation?
在这种情况下谁会高兴呢？
The people who are overly cynical are not happy, and the people around them are not happy.
过于愤世嫉俗的人不快乐，他们周围的人也不快乐。
Nobody's happy.
没有人高兴。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thanks for the clarification on New Jersey.
感谢您对新泽西州的澄清。
A good portion of my biological family is from New Jersey.
我的亲生家庭中有很大一部分来自新泽西州。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Come out well-armed.
全副武装地出来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I adore them, but it's true.
我很喜欢他们，但这是事实。
There was once a moment at a family gathering where somebody said, "Oh, let's hug" or something, and the reaction was like, "Oh, we're going to hug now?" It was entirely sarcastic and cynical, and the hug that resulted from that was this little distant pats kind of thing.
有一次，在一次家庭聚会上，有人说，“哦，我们拥抱一下”之类的，反应就像，“哦，我们现在要拥抱吗？”这完全是讽刺和愤世嫉俗的，而由此产生的拥抱就是这种遥远的拍拍之类的东西。
Now I'm laughing about it, and it's funny.
现在我笑起来，这很有趣。
And they're very loving people, but you're right, it's a different style of-
他们是非常有爱心的人，但你是对的，这是一种不同的风格-
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
humor and discourse.
幽默和话语。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you've been talking about these two pillars of the self and who we are and how things play out in the world for us as the structure of self and the function of self.
所以你一直在谈论自我的这两个支柱以及我们是谁以及事物如何在我们的世界中发挥作用作为自我的结构和自我的功能。
And in terms of the function of self, you described self-awareness, this notion or this realization that there is an I, there's a me.
就自我的功能而言，你描述了自我意识，这个概念或这种认识，即有一个我，有一个我。
And then we've been talking about defense mechanisms in action and how these play out in the real world, both positive and negative.
然后我们一直在讨论防御机制的作用以及这些机制在现实世界中的发挥作用，无论是积极的还是消极的。
It seems to me that a lot of what is happening here in terms of understanding the function of self has to do with what we pay attention to and where we place our efforts or choose to not place our attention and not place our efforts.
在我看来，在理解自我功能方面发生的很多事情都与我们关注什么以及我们在哪里投入精力或选择不投入注意力和不投入努力有关。
Do I have that right?
我有这个权利吗？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Salience is a huge concept, I think, in human existence.
我认为，显着性是人类存在中的一个巨大概念。
There are thousands upon thousands of things that you or I could be paying attention to right now.
你或我现在可以关注成千上万的事情。
But we're not paying attention to anything except what we're doing right here.
但除了我们在这里所做的事情之外，我们没有关注任何事情。
So we are gating out so many other thoughts, ideas, narratives inside.
所以我们把很多其他的想法、想法、叙述都排除在里面。
Now, if something were to shift very quickly, if we heard a loud noise, our attention would shift, right?
现在，如果某件事发生得非常快，如果我们听到一声巨响，我们的注意力就会转移，对吗？
So our attention is focused.
所以我们的注意力是集中的。
We're salient to one another because this is what we've chosen, and we're focusing our minds, and we are also, somewhere inside of us, aware that we could shift away from it if something more important, like something dangerous, were to happen.
我们对彼此来说很重要，因为这是我们所选择的，我们集中了我们的思想，而且我们也在内心的某个地方意识到，如果发生更重要的事情，比如危险的事情，我们可以远离它。
So it lets us be here and be salient to one another and have this conversation.
因此，它让我们能够在这里互相强调并进行对话。
But in the course of life, what's salient to us is so complicated and determined by so many factors that it's absolutely worth a lot of attention to.
但在生命的过程中，对我们来说最重要的事情是如此复杂，并且由如此多的因素决定，绝对值得我们多加关注。
So one example is so many people have a negative internal dialogue that's running in them over and over again, or they're running through images, events.
一个例子是，很多人都有一种消极的内部对话，这种对话一遍又一遍地在他们身上运行，或者他们正在浏览图像、事件。
They may be traumatic events or things that they're not happy with, images of themselves in negative ways, that these internal narratives or internal images can become so strong that there's no room for anything else.
它们可能是创伤性事件或他们不满意的事情，他们自己的负面形象，这些内部叙述或内部形象可能变得如此强烈，以至于没有其他任何空间。
So, an example would be a person who really, really loved music and could have, just in addition to enjoying music, had a good ...
因此，一个例子是一个非常非常热爱音乐的人，除了享受音乐之外，还可以享受美好的......
thoughts while listening to music.
一边听音乐一边思考。
Like, "You know what?
就像，“你知道吗？
I could go do this," right?
我可以去做这个，”对吧？
And had a history of that really working out well, following his interests and really creating goodness in his life, right?
并且有过一段非常成功的历史，追随他的兴趣并在他的生活中真正创造了美好，对吗？
Who now was going for long drives, longer than would be needed to go somewhere or get something.
现在谁要长途驾驶，比去某个地方或拿东西所需的时间还要长。
Why the extra time in the car?
为什么要花额外的时间在车上？
And I had had a presumption, okay, the person's listening to music and thinking, but it didn't quite add up.
我有一个假设，好吧，这个人正在听音乐并思考，但这并不完全符合。
And then I learned that the person is not listening to music, right?
然后我发现这个人没有在听音乐，对吧？
That they're using that time so that the internal narrative, which was a very, very negative, repeated internal negative, "You're not going to get anywhere.
他们利用这段时间进行内部叙述，这是一种非常非常消极的、反复的内部消极，“你不会有任何进展。
You're not going to make anything of yourself," right?
你不会做出任何自己的事，”对吧？
It could be there in his mind, right?
他脑子里应该有这个吧？
So it was a form of self-punishment, right?
所以这是一种自我惩罚，对吗？
It was a form of taking the anger and frustration inside and enacting it towards himself.
这是一种将愤怒和沮丧发泄在自己身上的方式。
And that was so salient that this person could not see his way to any goodness.
这一点是如此突出，以至于这个人看不到他的任何善行。
Nothing could change.
一切都无法改变。
Nothing could get any better.
没有什么可以变得更好了。
Felt very sure and very resolved about that.
对此我感到非常确定和决心。
And the answer was, yeah, that's right.
答案是，是的，没错。
Nothing can get any better with this constant mantra running over and over again.
当这句不断重复的咒语不断重复时，没有什么会变得更好。
But things can get better, right?
但事情可以变得更好，对吧？
If that becomes less salient over time, and your own thoughts and reflections become more salient.
如果随着时间的推移，这一点变得不那么突出，而你自己的想法和反思就会变得更加突出。
So at the other end of that shift, that narrative that was still there, but it was weakened, right?
因此，在这一转变的另一端，这种叙述仍然存在，但它被削弱了，对吗？
Because it takes time to really change things.
因为真正改变事情需要时间。
So it was very much weakened.
所以它被削弱了很多。
The person was listening to music again.
那人又在听音乐了。
Those thoughts had come back to the surface, and they were being jumbled in ways that brought new and interesting thoughts coming from them, and the person was in an entirely different place and completely changed their life.
这些想法又回到了表面，它们以各种方式混杂在一起，带来了新的、有趣的想法，这个人处于一个完全不同的地方，彻底改变了他们的生活。
Right?
正确的？
This is true.
这是真实的。
It's a dramatic example, but dramatic examples inform us, right?
这是一个戏剧性的例子，但戏剧性的例子告诉了我们，对吧？
Where the salience shifted, and then the life shifted after that.
显着性发生了变化，然后生活就发生了变化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What you're describing in terms of this specific example doesn't resonate with me in terms of my own experience, although, as you point out, it's very striking.
就我自己的经历而言，您所描述的这个具体示例并没有引起我的共鸣，尽管正如您所指出的，它非常引人注目。
It's very dramatic.
这非常具有戏剧性。
But it resonates with me from a different perspective.
但它从不同的角度引起了我的共鸣。
I'm not seeking a free clinical session here, but to give meat to the example I'm about to ask you for insight on.
我并不是在这里寻求免费的临床会议，而是为了给我将要请您提供见解的例子提供更多内容。
I've never allowed myself to stay in a bad professional situation for very long.
我从来不允许自己长期处于糟糕的职业环境中。
When things didn't feel right, or when I sensed someone I was working with or for wasn't the right situation, I got out, despite if I were to really think about it, there could've been pretty severe long-term consequences.
当事情感觉不对劲时，或者当我感觉到与我一起工作的人或为之工作的人的情况不合适时，我就会离开，尽管如果我认真考虑一下，可能会产生相当严重的长期后果。
Fortunately, it all worked out.
幸运的是，一切顺利。
In fact, so much so that I would say, I pay attention to whether or not people I work with and for are of the sort that I want to be working with, and if I sense a particular type of danger, I'll look at that, and I'm 100% so far, knock on wood, but 100% so far on recognizing later that it was a great decision to move on.
事实上，我会说，我很注意与我一起工作的人和为我工作的人是否是我想与之合作的人，如果我感觉到某种特定类型的危险，我会关注它，到目前为止我是100%，敲木头，但到目前为止我100%认识到后来继续前进是一个伟大的决定。
And on the flip side of it, I've made, I believe, excellent decisions in terms of who to work with, in terms of my podcasting, in terms of my academic career, et cetera.
另一方面，我相信，我在与谁合作、我的播客、我的学术生涯等方面做出了出色的决定。
But I've had to move away from people that just weren't right for me.
但我不得不远离那些不适合我的人。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't think they were truly bad actors, but thank goodness I moved away.
我不认为他们是真正的坏演员，但谢天谢地我搬走了。
And thank goodness I found these other wonderful people to work with.
谢天谢地，我找到了其他很棒的人一起工作。
However, there are circumstances that have been repetitive in my life where I've, just be honest, repeatedly made not good decisions about who to be involved with over fairly long periods of time, and there can even be an awareness, or I should say there has been an awareness.
然而，在我的生活中，有些情况一直在重复，老实说，在相当长的一段时间内，我反复对与谁交往做出了不好的决定，甚至可以有一种意识，或者我应该说已经有一种意识。
Like, this isn't a good situation, and yet I'm persisting in seeking out this and similar types of situations.
就像，这不是一个好情况，但我坚持寻找这种和类似类型的情况。
So I consider myself at least partially rational human being with some degree of introspection.
所以我认为自己至少是部分理性的人，具有一定程度的内省能力。
When I look at this and I think, okay, this is a choice to focus on placing myself in, I have to assume, placing myself into situations that are challenging for me in a way that I know is preventing me from living in certain ways that I want and from being, quote-unquote, happy in certain ways that I want.
当我看到这个的时候，我想，好吧，这是一个专注于将自己置于其中的选择，我必须假设，将自己置于对我来说具有挑战性的境地，我知道这会阻止我以我想要的某些方式生活，也阻止我以我想要的某些方式快乐。
When you hear a scenario like that, like I can do it over here, but I can't seem to do it over here.
当你听到这样的场景时，就像我在这里可以做到，但我在这里似乎做不到。
In fact, I see myself doing it the wrong way here, right?
事实上，我发现自己在这里做错了，对吧？
A little bit different than the example you gave a moment ago, because the guy was driving to work, not listening to music, but wasn't putting two and two together about what was going on.
与您刚才给出的示例有点不同，因为那个人正在开车去上班，没有听音乐，但并没有将两个两个放在一起来了解正在发生的事情。
But when somebody can see what's going on, I think this might even be called the repetition compulsion or-
但当有人能看到正在发生的事情时，我认为这甚至可以被称为重复强迫症或-
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Sometimes
有时
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
yeah, sometimes.
是的，有时。
What is that about?
那是关于什么的？
Are people trying to work out something specific, or are they deliberately creating some friction to accomplish something else, right?
人们是在尝试解决特定的问题，还是故意制造一些摩擦来完成其他事情，对吗？
I realize this could be infinitely complex, and again, I'm not trying to extract a clinical insight for my own sake.
我意识到这可能非常复杂，而且我并不是为了自己的利益而试图提取临床见解。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
I started the clock on that.
我就开始计时了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
But I think a lot of people do this.
但我认为很多人都这么做。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Oh, yes.
哦是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They do what they know they shouldn't be doing.
他们做他们知道不应该做的事情。
They know they shouldn't be doing it.
他们知道他们不应该这样做。
Duh, I just said that two ways.
呃，我只是说两个方面。
But they do it like it must serve them in some way.
但他们这样做就好像它必须以某种方式为他们服务。
You think about when you get a dog and you talk to a dog trainer, they say, dogs do what works.
你想想当你养了一只狗并与训狗师交谈时，他们说，狗会做有效的事情。
Right?
正确的？
They get a reward for doing something, they're going to continue doing it.
他们因为做某事而获得奖励，他们会继续做下去。
You apply that to the same sort of thing I'm describing for myself, and that I've observed in other people, and you must say, it must work for them.
你把它应用到我为自己描述的同一类事情上，以及我在其他人身上观察到的事情，你必须说，它一定对他们有用。
You hear this in pop psychology.
你在流行心理学中听到过这个。
It must work for them.
它必须对他们有用。
It must be solving something.
一定是在解决什么问题。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Why the hell do I do this?
我到底为什么要这么做？
Why do people do this?
人们为什么要这样做？
Is it real pathology or is it a roundabout way to get to something else that's actually pretty adaptive?
这是真正的病态还是一种迂回的方式来达到其他实际上相当适应性的东西？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Instead of defining it as pathology, I would not define it as pathology, I would define it as humanness.
我不会将其定义为病理学，而是将其定义为人性。
If humanness is not in and of itself pathological, then all you're doing there is describing something that is common, widespread across human beings.
如果人性本身并不是病态的，那么你所做的就是描述人类中普遍存在的、普遍存在的东西。
Now, it doesn't mean we can't understand it and make it healthier.
现在，这并不意味着我们不能理解它并使其变得更健康。
I work in a discipline that wants to put a number on everything, label it as something, and then do something about it that's more often than not ineffective.
我所从事的学科想要给所有事物都加上一个数字，将其标记为某物，然后对其采取一些措施，但这些措施往往是无效的。
Because we're not looking at things in a top-down way of what is human experience, what are the natural aspects of human experience that are less than ideal, that we can then understand and make better.
因为我们并不是以自上而下的方式看待事物，什么是人类经验，什么是人类经验的自然方面不理想，然后我们可以理解并改进它们。
If we come at it that way, then we see, ah, this is a great example because here's where structure meets function.
如果我们这样理解，那么我们就会发现，啊，这是一个很好的例子，因为这是结构与功能的结合。
So on the structure side, we say, okay, there's defense mechanisms, and we imagine the branches that are coming up from the unconscious mind.
所以在结构方面，我们说，好吧，有防御机制，我们想象从无意识思维中产生的分支。
And here it meets function.
在这里它满足了功能。
Defense mechanisms in action on the function side, then determining salience.
防御机制在功能方面发挥作用，然后确定显着性。
So what I would imagine in your example, my image is that your defensive structure when you're doing the thing that's effective, the professional decisions.
所以我在你的例子中想象的是，当你做有效的事情、专业的决定时，你的防御结构。
It looks elegant.
看起来很优雅。
There's harmony to where those branches are.
这些树枝所在的地方很和谐。
The consciousness is sitting in between it.
意识位于它之间。
You can see the elegance to it.
你可以看到它的优雅。
That I can just imagine shifting when you're not doing the thing effectively.
我可以想象当你没有有效地做这件事时转移。
Because now you're using an entirely different defensive structure, which is going to function differently and create different salience.
因为现在你使用的是完全不同的防御结构，它将以不同的方式发挥作用并创造不同的显着性。
And I imagine that it's convoluted and that it's sort of piecemeal, that it's not something elegant.
我认为它很复杂，而且有点零散，不是什么优雅的东西。
So you say, okay, what does that actually mean?
所以你说，好吧，这实际上意味着什么？
Let's translate it into what are the actual defenses.
让我们将其转化为实际的防御。
So let's think about what you're not doing when you're making good decisions in the professional realm.
因此，让我们想想，当你在专业领域做出正确的决定时，你没有做什么。
You are not using denial or avoidance, or rationalization, or projection, or projective identification, or acting out.
你没有使用否认或回避，或合理化，或投射，或投射性认同，或付诸行动。
There are all these things that you are not doing that are the sort of unhealthy defenses beckoning to us.
所有这些你没有做的事情都是在向我们招手的不健康的防御。
Like, oh, wouldn't it be easier to kick the can down the road?
就像，哦，把罐子踢到路上不是更容易吗？
Wouldn't it be easier to just say, "No, everything's okay.
直接说“不，一切都好”不是更容易吗？
Everything's going to work out okay." Wouldn't it be easier, instead of being angry at one person who is really intrinsic to the environment, if it's actually somebody else, or you're displacing or projecting.
一切都会顺利的。”如果这个人实际上是其他人，或者你正在取代或投射，而不是对一个真正与环境固有的人生气，这不是更容易吗？
That's how we get ourselves into trouble, right?
这就是我们给自己带来麻烦的原因，对吗？
And if that's going on, then that set of defense mechanisms in action creates something that obscures the ability to make good judgment.
如果这种情况持续下去，那么这套防御机制的作用就会产生一些阻碍做出良好判断的能力的东西。
But with none of those things going on, then what are you doing?
但如果这些事情都没有发生，那么你在做什么呢？
You're applying your intelligence, you're applying your discernment.
你正在运用你的智慧，你正在运用你的洞察力。
You're applying your desire to make things better.
你正在运用你的愿望让事情变得更好。
You're able to look at it.
你可以看看。
You're able to bring diligence, perseverance.
你能够带来勤奋、毅力。
You're able to bring healthy aspects of self to the question and decide, like, "Oh, I don't want this and it should be different." And there again, what's going on?
你能够将自我健康的一面带入这个问题并做出决定，比如，“哦，我不想要这个，它应该有所不同。”又来了，这是怎么回事？
There's a complexity under the surface, but now we're coming up towards simplicity.
表面之下很复杂，但现在我们正在走向简单。
We're coming up towards the things that are healthier, that are simplistic.
我们正在走向更健康、更简单的事情。
If we look then, okay, what's going on if you're making the same mistakes over and over again?
如果我们看看，好吧，如果你一遍又一遍地犯同样的错误，会发生什么？
Well, we would dive under the hood and really look and say, "Okay, what are you doing there?" But it has to be an array of unhealthy defenses.
好吧，我们会潜入引擎盖下，认真观察并说：“好吧，你在那里做什么？”但它必须是一系列不健康的防御。
There's no other thing it could be.
不可能有其他事情了。
So we would say, "Okay, are you using avoidance?
所以我们会说，“好吧，你有回避吗？
Maybe a little, maybe a lot.
也许一点，也许很多。
What about denial?
否认又怎样？
What about rationalization?
合理化呢？
What about projection?" You go through the unhealthy defenses and you see what is it that you're bringing to bear that is leading you astray.
投影呢？”你穿越了不健康的防御，你就会看到是什么让你误入歧途。
And then, of course, the goal is to use the role modeling.
当然，目标是使用角色建模。
You role model for yourself how to be healthy.
您为自己树立了如何保持健康的榜样。
So let's take that role modeling and apply it to the thing you're sort of carving out and treating differently.
因此，让我们以这个角色为榜样，将其应用到您正在开拓和以不同方式对待的事情上。
And that's the reason when people talk about repetition compulsions, it's not a formal term because what we're really talking about is repetition.
这就是为什么当人们谈论强迫性重复时，它不是一个正式术语，因为我们真正谈论的是重复。
And we're interested in why do we repeat things?
我们感兴趣的是为什么我们要重复事情？
Now, that's one reason.
现在，这是原因之一。
Because we bring an unhealthy set of defenses, and then at the end of the day, things come out the same because we're bringing an unhealthy set of defenses.
因为我们带来了一套不健康的防御，然后在一天结束时，结果还是一样，因为我们带来了一套不健康的防御。
There can be other motivations that are related to all of that, and there's, again, this complexity to it, but the compulsion part can be that we can reenter situations that didn't go well with the idea that we're going to fix what happened in the past.
可能还有与所有这些相关的其他动机，并且再次存在这种复杂性，但强迫部分可能是我们可以重新进入与我们要解决过去发生的问题的想法不相符的情况。
We're going to make ourselves feel better.
我们会让自己感觉更好。
We're going to take away the mark of trauma.
我们要消除创伤的痕迹。
Because remember, trauma doesn't care about the clock or the calendar.
因为请记住，创伤并不关心时钟或日历。
So that's why you'll see someone who has had, say, five abusive relationships that looked very much the same and is about to enter the sixth.
这就是为什么你会看到一个人已经经历过五次虐待关系，但看起来非常相似，并且即将进入第六次。
And you say, it's not because, hopefully, in most cases, not because that person wants to be hurt.
你说，这不是因为，希望在大多数情况下，不是因为那个人想要受到伤害。
Sometimes that's a different problem.
有时这是一个不同的问题。
But there can be a drive inside of us to try and fix something.
但我们内心可能有一股尝试解决某些问题的动力。
If I can make it work this time, I won't have to feel so bad about the other five.
如果这次我能成功的话，我就不用为其他五个人感到那么难过了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So an attempt to change the past through one's current actions.
因此，试图通过当前的行动来改变过去。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Which is rooted in the limbic system and how trauma affects us, and how, again, it's outside the clock and the calendar.
它植根于边缘系统，以及创伤如何影响我们，以及它如何不受时钟和日历的影响。
So that kind of magic, so to speak, can happen, so the brain can seek that magic.
因此，可以说，这种魔法是可能发生的，因此大脑可以寻求这种魔法。
But again, there are unhealthy defenses coming into play.
但同样，不健康的防御也在发挥作用。
There has to be denial.
必须有否认。
Otherwise, the person would map, if the same thing happened five times and this looks the same, it's probably going to happen now.
否则，这个人会绘制地图，如果同样的事情发生五次并且看起来相同，那么它现在可能会发生。
So any time you think a person, most often it's us, is smart enough or worldly enough to know better, which happens all the time, then look for the answer.
因此，每当你认为一个人（通常是我们）足够聪明或足够世俗以了解更多信息（这种情况经常发生）时，然后寻找答案。
You say, well, shouldn't that person know better than to get into the sixth abusive relationship?
你说，好吧，那个人不应该更清楚地避免进入第六种虐待关系吗？
The answer is yes.
答案是肯定的。
Because it's not that hard if you saw a set of circumstances five times to map that the sixth is going to have the same outcome.
因为如果你看到一组情况五次，就可以看出第六次会产生相同的结果，这并不难。
The person would do that in other scenarios.
这个人在其他情况下也会这样做。
So then you say, right, that is true.
那么你说，对，那是真的。
So now let's look for why the person doesn't recognize that.
现在让我们看看为什么这个人不认识到这一点。
And again, we go down into the structure of self and the function of self, defense mechanisms in action, salience, the things that we're talking about.
再次，我们深入探讨自我的结构和自我的功能，行动中的防御机制，显着性，以及我们正在谈论的事情。
Now, does that fit?
现在，这合适吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it makes sense.
是的，这是有道理的。
And what comes to mind is the idea of getting into a car that you know is going to get into an accident over and over and over again, but being quite cognizant of safety and its importance in every other domain of life.
我想到的是这样的想法：坐进一辆你知道会一次又一次发生事故的汽车，但要充分认识到安全及其在生活其他领域的重要性。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not even jaywalking.
连乱穿马路都不行。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But if certain Ubers arrived with a little flashing light that said, "This ride is going to have an accident," it's like getting into that vehicle.
但如果某些 Uber 到达时带有一个闪烁的小灯，上面写着“这次乘车将会发生事故”，那就就像进入那辆车一样。
And I see this in others as well.
我在其他人身上也看到了这一点。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it raises all sorts of questions like, is the person actually unconsciously afraid of the vehicle arriving where they want to go?
这引发了各种各样的问题，比如，这个人是否真的无意识地害怕车辆到达他们想去的地方？
Because then are people actually afraid of things working out?
因为那么人们真的害怕事情顺利吗？
This gets to something that hopefully-
希望这能实现一些目标——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
I'm so sorry, David, but can I say?
我很抱歉，大卫，但是我可以说吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
That's why you have to know the person, right?
这就是为什么你必须认识这个人，对吧？
Who is that person?
那人是谁？
Why do they not want to get in that car?
为什么他们不想上那辆车？
Are they afraid they're not going to get somewhere?
他们是否担心自己不会有所成就？
Are they afraid they're going to get somewhere?
他们害怕自己会有所成就吗？
But ultimately, we're looking for unhealthy defenses.
但最终，我们正在寻找不健康的防御。
And I so want to emphasize that.
我想强调这一点。
I will often think that the aspect of my education that's most helpful in me doing my job when I'm in the job as a practicing psychiatrist is actually my mathematics minor.
当我作为一名执业精神科医生时，我经常会认为我所受的教育对我的工作最有帮助的方面实际上是我辅修的数学。
Because there's a lot more math to this.
因为这涉及到更多的数学知识。
People tend to think, "Oh, mental health, it's all esoteric, and you can sort of say anything you want, and there's no way of proving or disproving it." It's not like that at all.
人们倾向于认为，“哦，心理健康，这都是深奥的，你可以说任何你想说的，而且没有办法证明或反驳它。”根本不是那样的。
There's a mathematical aspect to it.
这有一个数学方面的内容。
So if you do the correct logical common sense thing in all aspects of your life except one, and you're 100 times more intelligent than you need to be to figure it all out, then if there's a carve-out, we say, "Look, that's of huge interest." The probability that we're going to find something interesting there is 100%.
因此，如果你在生活的各个方面都做了正确的逻辑常识，除了其中一个方面，而且你的智力比你需要的聪明100倍，那么如果有一个例外，我们会说，“看，这很有趣。”我们在那里找到有趣的东西的概率是 100%。
Because we know that you know better.
因为我们知道您更了解。
We know that you do better.
我们知道您会做得更好。
But why here?
但为什么在这里？
So that's so interesting.
所以这很有趣。
That's where the X marks the spot.
这就是 X 标记的位置。
Let's go dig there.
我们去那里挖吧。
So then when we go and dig there, we're going to find something.
所以当我们去那里挖掘时，我们会发现一些东西。
And we'll say, "What is that?" Do we find that like, oh, it's an array of really unhealthy defense mechanisms?
我们会说，“那是什么？”我们是否发现，哦，这是一系列非常不健康的防御机制？
Maybe we find that.
也许我们会发现这一点。
Do we find that there's a deep, unconscious motivation?
我们是否发现有一种深刻的、无意识的动机？
We might find that, too.
我们也可能会发现这一点。
We might find a lot of things, but we're going to find them if we go back to what is the structure of self, what is the function of self.
我们可能会发现很多东西，但是如果我们回到自我的结构是什么，自我的功能是什么，我们就会找到它们。
If we go and look, that X marks the spot means there's pay dirt there.
如果我们去看看，那个 X 标记的地方意味着那里有钱。
And then when we figure that out, then we go through, and we can make things change.
当我们弄清楚这一点时，我们就会经历，并且我们可以让事情发生改变。
So if it's a deep-seated, trauma-driven, unconscious motivation that is resulting in an unhealthy array of defense mechanisms, well, let's go look at that.
因此，如果这是一种根深蒂固的、由创伤驱动的、无意识的动机，导致了一系列不健康的防御机制，那么，让我们来看看吧。
Let's look at the trauma.
我们来看看创伤。
Let's take the thing that's unconscious and bring it to consciousness.
让我们把无意识的事情带入意识中。
Then we can make that better and that array of unhealthy defenses.
然后我们就可以改进这些不健康的防御措施。
Again, we're not going to change it overnight, but can we change it very, very significantly, pretty rapidly?
再说一遍，我们不会在一夜之间改变它，但我们可以非常、非常显着、非常快地改变它吗？
Probably, yes.
可能是的。
And we can almost entirely change it across time.
随着时间的推移，我们几乎可以完全改变它。
So there's a mathematical aspect of this that I think is so important to point out because mental health, just even as a field, we all want to be mentally healthy.
因此，我认为指出这一点的数学方面非常重要，因为心理健康，即使作为一个领域，我们都希望心理健康。
There's a rhyme and reason to it that, yes, it follows science, and yes, it also follows common sense.
这是有道理的，是的，它遵循科学，是的，它也遵循常识。
And if we apply those things, we get to answers.
如果我们应用这些东西，我们就会得到答案。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's very reassuring.
非常让人放心。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thinking about the functions of self, and again, just to remind myself and other people, it starts with self-awareness, involves defense mechanisms in action.
思考自我的功能，再次提醒自己和其他人，它始于自我意识，涉及行动中的防御机制。
Then there's the salience piece, paying attention to what's inside of us as well as what's external.
然后是最重要的部分，即关注我们的内在和外在。
And then you're now describing a lot of choices, choice-making, and behavior, and action in the world.
然后你现在描述了世界上的很多选择、选择、行为和行动。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have to assume that for the person trying to improve themselves and get to agency and gratitude, that paying attention to all of these is important.
我必须假设，对于试图提高自己并获得代理和感恩的人来说，关注所有这些都很重要。
But of course, if a defense mechanism is unconscious, we can't simply decide, okay, I'm going to see the unconscious defense mechanism.
但当然，如果防御机制是无意识的，我们不能简单地决定，好吧，我要看看无意识的防御机制。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Does that mean that we should ask ourselves about what is most salient to us?
这是否意味着我们应该问自己什么对我们来说最重要？
Or should we be focusing on our behavioral choices?
或者我们应该关注我们的行为选择？
In the example I just gave, I'm aware of my behavioral choices, making certain decisions to engage with certain people and not with others.
在我刚才给出的例子中，我意识到自己的行为选择，做出某些决定来与某些人而不是其他人交往。
But should I be asking, for instance, what's salient?
但我应该问，例如，什么是最重要的？
What are the thoughts leading up to that decision?
导致该决定的想法是什么？
In other words, how does salience of internal and external cues and processes relate to behavior?
换句话说，内部和外部线索和过程的显着性如何与行为相关？
And which of these should we be paying attention to if our goal is to eventually change our behavior?
如果我们的目标是最终改变我们的行为，我们应该关注哪一个？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
So think about we're still starting at the bottom.
所以想想我们仍然从底层开始。
So we're starting with, okay, there is an I.
所以我们从，好吧，有一个我开始。
And that's not just an apprehension.
这不仅仅是一种忧虑。
There's a lot to that.
这有很多内容。
So for example, I know someone who is doing mirror meditation, staring into the mirror, looking back at self with a desire to be aware.
举例来说，我认识一个正在进行镜子冥想的人，他凝视着镜子，回顾自己，渴望意识到。
There is a me.
有一个我。
This me is in the world.
这个我就在这个世界上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is the first I've ever heard of such a practice, except when I was in elementary school, or maybe it was the ninth grade, I had a teacher who gave us an assignment to look in the mirror and ask ourselves questions.
这是我第一次听说这样的做法，除了在我上小学的时候，或者也许是九年级的时候，我有一位老师给我们布置了一个作业，让我们照镜子并问自己问题。
But if I understand correctly, you think there's utility to people spending a few minutes or more looking in the mirror and thinking about oneself and the I as a way to build up this self-awareness.
但如果我理解正确的话，你认为人们花几分钟或更长时间照镜子并思考自己和“我”作为建立这种自我意识的一种方式是有用的。
Do I have that right?
我有这个权利吗？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
If you want to take the best care of yourself that you can, you want to understand yourself the best you can, you want to make your life the best it can be.
如果你想尽可能地照顾自己，你想尽可能地了解自己，你想让你的生活尽可能美好。
Then if there are answers, and let's say the answers are in five or 10 different cupboards, look in all of them.
然后，如果有答案，假设答案在 5 个或 10 个不同的柜子里，那么就查看所有的柜子。
That's the idea.
就是这个想法。
That if we want to know something, look everywhere for it, and also realize what we are building, what we are creating may be a recipe.
如果我们想了解某件事，到处寻找它，并意识到我们正在构建什么，那么我们正在创建的可能就是一个秘诀。
There may be things from different cupboards that overlap.
不同橱柜中的东西可能会重叠。
So the way to translate that practically is to say, to find the answers to what What is either ailing us, why we're repeating things we don't want to repeat, or even if things are going okay, but we want them to be going better because we don't quite feel the peace and contentment we want to feel, then look everywhere.
因此，实际翻译的方法就是说，要找到我们的问题的答案，为什么我们要重复我们不想重复的事情，或者即使事情进展顺利，但我们希望它们进展得更好，因为我们没有完全感受到我们想要感受到的平静和满足，然后到处寻找。
So in the function of self, start with the I.
所以在自我的功能中，从“我”开始。
There are ways of increasing self-awareness.
有一些方法可以提高自我意识。
They can range from contemplation of self, to meditation, to looking in the mirror.
它们的范围可以从自我沉思、冥想到照镜子。
There are things that we can do to more strongly emphasize to ourself that there is an I, and this I is going through life.
我们可以做一些事情来更强烈地向自己强调有一个“我”，而这个“我”正在经历生活。
Then we know that there are defense mechanisms and that they're present, that they're acting in us.
然后我们就知道有防御机制，并且它们存在，它们在我们体内发挥作用。
We can't just see them because they're unconscious, but if we start thinking about them, we can learn about them, and that's where salience comes into play.
我们不能仅仅看到它们，因为它们是无意识的，但如果我们开始思考它们，我们就可以了解它们，这就是显着性发挥作用的地方。
Salience kind of points both ways.
显着性是双向的。
Salience can point us towards the unconscious mind.
显着性可以将我们引向潜意识。
"Oh, I realize I'm doing this over and over again, or I'm saying this thing to myself over and over again.
“哦，我意识到我一遍又一遍地这样做，或者我一遍又一遍地对自己说这件事。
Where is that coming from?" We start becoming curious about ourselves, and we look to the unconscious mind, and then we also look to the conscious mind.
这是从哪里来的？”我们开始对自己感到好奇，我们关注无意识的心灵，然后我们也关注有意识的心灵。
That's why after salience is behavior.
这就是为什么显着性之后是行为。
Like, what am I doing?
就像，我在做什么？
And a lot of times, we don't know.
很多时候，我们不知道。
Just the examples of we don't know why we're doing things.
只是我们不知道为什么要做事情的例子。
Someone who wants to lose weight but always goes to the grocery store and comes home and is like, has some sense of surprise that there are things there that they don't want to eat.
有些人想要减肥，但总是去杂货店，回家后，会感到惊讶，因为那里有他们不想吃的东西。
Like, why am I behaving in a certain way?
比如，为什么我会以某种方式行事？
Why do certain things bother me when other things don't?
为什么某些事情让我烦恼，而另一些事情却不困扰我？
Why am I really touchy about one thing and not another?
为什么我对一件事非常敏感而不是另一件事？
Why might there be things that bother others and not me, or vice versa?
为什么有些事情会困扰别人而不是我，反之亦然？
So, we're looking at what's going on inside of us, and then how we respond.
因此，我们正在关注我们内心发生的事情，然后我们如何应对。
Because what may be upsetting me or what's going on inside of me, both conscious and unconscious, is then determining how I'm acting, how I'm behaving in the world around me.
因为可能让我心烦意乱的东西，或者我内心发生的事情，无论是有意识的还是无意识的，都决定了我的行为方式，我在周围世界中的行为方式。
If I want a better job, but I never take an interview for another job, I'm not going to get another job.
如果我想要一份更好的工作，但我从不接受另一份工作的面试，我就不会再找另一份工作。
If I want a romantic partner, but I automatically turn away from anyone who smiles at me, I'm not going to have a romantic partner.
如果我想要一个浪漫的伴侣，但我会自动拒绝任何对我微笑的人，那么我不会有一个浪漫的伴侣。
If I want life to be better and there's a certain thing I repeat, and I don't want to repeat that, I want to understand myself better so I can change the behavior.
如果我想让生活变得更好，并且我重复某件事，但我不想重复它，我想更好地了解自己，这样我就可以改变行为。
And that's why the function of self ends with strivings.
这就是为什么自我的功能以努力结束。
The strivings are into the future.
奋斗是为了未来。
I know there is an I.
我知道有一个我。
I know there's a network and web of defense mechanisms in action.
我知道有一个防御机制网络正在发挥作用。
I know that there's salience going on inside of me, and I'm only going to pay attention to a few things from the thousands I could pay attention to.
我知道我内心深处正在发生一些事情，我只会关注我能关注的数千件事中的几件事。
I want to be aware of that and have more control over that.
我想意识到这一点并对此有更多的控制权。
Then I'm enacting behaviors.
然后我就做出行为。
I'm engaging in the world around me, and ultimately, I want things.
我参与周围的世界，最终，我想要一些东西。
I want life to be better.
我想让生活变得更好。
I want to have that feeling that you can get to.
我想要有那种你能达到的感觉。
I want to be in the state of agency and gratitude.
我想要处于代理和感恩的状态。
So again, these two pillars, structure of self, function of self, that's where all the answers are.
再说一次，这两个支柱，自我结构，自我功能，就是所有答案所在。
So there are all the cupboards.
于是就有了所有的橱柜。
There are these five cupboards in the structure of self and five in the function of self, and I know we'll have it out there in a PDF, because you can go back there, and that's where the vast majority of answers are to both understanding and routes to change.
自我结构中有这五个柜子，自我功能有五个柜子，我知道我们会把它放在 PDF 中，因为你可以回到那里，那里是绝大多数答案的地方，既是理解也是改变的途径。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What you just described is incredibly helpful.
您刚才描述的内容非常有帮助。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's absolutely apparent to me why looking in all the cupboards is so key.
对我来说，很明显为什么检查所有的橱柜是如此重要。
It's also apparent that many different aspects of psychology and psychiatry, at least as I understand them, might probe, for instance, just at the level of behavior.
同样明显的是，心理学和精神病学的许多不同方面，至少就我的理解而言，可能只是在行为层面进行探索。
I think this is the just do it mantra.
我认为这是“just do it”的口号。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, just do the right thing.
好吧，只做正确的事。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're not finding a romantic partner, schedule three dinners with friends and ask them to invite over people who are looking for partners.
您还没有找到浪漫的伴侣，请与朋友安排三顿晚餐，并请他们邀请正在寻找伴侣的人。
Sounds really simple.
听起来很简单。
But, much as with the example of my friend who lost all this weight through behavioral change, the fear still lives within him very strongly, and so clearly, there's some stuff happening underneath there.
但是，就像我朋友通过行为改变减掉这么多体重的例子一样，恐惧仍然非常强烈地存在于他内心，很明显，那里正在发生一些事情。
Now, fortunately, he did lose the weight, and he's kept most of it off, but it's clear to me that until he addresses some of these other issues of salience and defense mechanism, self-awareness, et cetera, that the fear he's still experiencing makes total sense because the foundation of that change is not nearly as strong as it could be.
现在，幸运的是，他确实减轻了体重，而且大部分体重都减轻了，但我很清楚，在他解决显着性和防御机制、自我意识等其他一些问题之前，他仍然经历的恐惧是完全有道理的，因为这种变化的基础远没有达到应有的程度。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Maybe.
或许。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Or maybe he doesn't have to have the fear.
或者也许他不必有恐惧。
But he's not going to learn either one without the exploration.
但如果不经过探索，他就不会学到其中任何一个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
So if there is risk, he won't be able to avert the risk, and if there's not risk, he's then sort of laboring through life, which is difficult enough without being worried about something you don't have to be worried about.
因此，如果存在风险，他将无法避免风险，而如果没有风险，他就会在生活中劳作，这已经够困难的了，而不需要担心一些你不必担心的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
So the process of inquiry will always make that better.
因此，探究的过程总是会让事情变得更好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's clear to me that his fear of regaining weight is absolutely sapping his enjoyment and his productivity in other domains of life.
我很清楚，他对体重反弹的恐惧绝对会削弱他在生活其他领域的乐趣和生产力。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
So it warrants attention.
所以值得关注。
Because we're deciding in that sort of mathematical way, it doesn't have to be that way.
因为我们是以那种数学方式做出决定的，所以它不一定是那样的。
Doesn't mean it can change overnight, but it can be understood, and it can be changed.
并不意味着它可以在一夜之间改变，但它是可以理解的，并且是可以改变的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, it's for that reason and many other reasons that I'm very grateful that you explained these two pillars, structure of self and function of self, and how these flow up to empowerment and humility, and how those flow up to agency and gratitude.
嗯，正是出于这个原因和许多其他原因，我非常感谢您解释了这两个支柱，即自我结构和自我功能，以及它们如何形成赋权和谦卑，以及如何形成代理和感恩。
You've given us a-
你给了我们一个——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Thank you
谢谢你
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a set of ideals and a roadmap of how to get there, and one that we're going to continue with in a moment here.
一套理想和如何实现这一目标的路线图，我们稍后将继续执行。
I did want to reiterate what you said, which is that there is a PDF version of this structure, this roadmap of ideals and how to get there, that's been provided as a link in the show note captions, so people can refer to them there in visual form if they like.
我确实想重申一下你所说的，即这个结构、这个理想路线图以及如何到达那里有一个 PDF 版本，它已作为显示注释标题中的链接提供，因此人们可以根据需要以视觉形式引用它们。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
If you're interested in understanding yourself and in having goodness in your life as much as you possibly can, then you're interested in the structure of the mind.
如果你有兴趣了解自己并尽可能地在生活中拥有善良，那么你就会对心灵的结构感兴趣。
And this means that you're interested in the unconscious mind, in all the things that go on, a million things a second that we don't know or understand one by one, but that we can explore and understand better in total.
这意味着你对潜意识、所有正在发生的事情感兴趣，每秒有一百万件我们不知道或一一理解的事情，但我们可以从总体上更好地探索和理解。
We're also interested in the conscious mind, in being self-aware.
我们也对意识、自我意识感兴趣。
We're interested in the array of defense mechanisms and whether or not they're elegant and light passes clearly through them, or whether they're distorting light and creating misperception.
我们对一系列防御机制感兴趣，以及它们是否优雅且光线是否清晰地穿过它们，或者它们是否扭曲光线并造成误解。
If you're interested in the structure of the mind, then you're also interested in the character structure.
如果您对思维结构感兴趣，那么您也会对性格结构感兴趣。
What is your character structure?
你的性格结构是怎样的？
What is the nest around all of it?
这一切周围的巢穴是什么？
How do you interface with the world?
你如何与世界互动？
And then you're interested in the self that you grow from that phenomenologically, meaning what is your experience of self?
然后你对从现象学上成长起来的自我感兴趣，这意味着你的自我体验是什么？
How does it feel to you?
您感觉如何？
These are all important parts of this pillar of health and happiness.
这些都是健康和幸福这一支柱的重要组成部分。
The other pillar is the function of the mind.
另一个支柱是心灵的功能。
And of course, there's overlap.
当然，也有重叠。
They're different cupboards, but the cupboards all contain different ingredients that together make the recipe.
它们是不同的橱柜，但这些橱柜都包含不同的成分，这些成分共同构成了食谱。
So if we're interested in the function of the mind, then we want to pay attention that there's an I.
因此，如果我们对心灵的功能感兴趣，那么我们要注意有一个“我”。
We want to be self-aware, and we want to cultivate self-awareness.
我们想要有自我意识，我们想要培养自我意识。
We're also interested in how those defense mechanisms work when they're in action.
我们还对这些防御机制在发挥作用时如何发挥作用感兴趣。
What's salient inside of us and outside of us?
我们的内在和外在有什么显着的特点？
What are we paying attention to?
我们关注什么？
How are we behaving?
我们的行为如何？
What are our strivings?
我们的努力是什么？
Do we feel hopeful about ourselves and the world around us?
我们对自己和周围的世界充满希望吗？
And if we're interested in all of these things, we can't help but be respectful of just how complicated this is.
如果我们对所有这些事情都感兴趣，我们就会情不自禁地尊重这件事的复杂性。
Life is difficult, and understanding ourselves is difficult.
生活是艰难的，了解自己也很困难。
Wonderful joy can come of living life, but it is hard, and it's hard day by day.
美好的生活可以带来美妙的快乐，但这很困难，而且一天比一天困难。
And trying to understand ourselves, going to these places, these pillars that hold the answers.
并试图了解我们自己，去这些地方，这些蕴藏着答案的支柱。
They can't but make in us a respect for all of it.
他们不得不让我们尊重这一切。
And the respect for ourselves, for others, brings with it humility.
对自己和他人的尊重会带来谦卑。
When we come to this point of looking at ourselves and exploring, then yes, we become empowered because we've gained a lot of knowledge.
当我们审视自己并进行探索时，是的，我们变得更有力量，因为我们获得了很多知识。
We're digging where the pay dirt is, and we're figuring things out.
我们正在挖掘收益所在，我们正在解决问题。
And along with that empowerment comes humility, a respectfulness for how difficult all of this is, how complicated we are, how we can make happiness in our lives, but how it certainly isn't easy.
伴随着这种授权而来的是谦卑，尊重这一切是多么困难，我们是多么复杂，我们如何才能在生活中获得幸福，但这当然并不容易。
And we take with us the empowerment and the humility, and we express them.
我们带着授权和谦卑，并表达它们。
And if we're expressing empowerment and humility, we come to living through agency and gratitude.
如果我们表达赋权和谦逊，我们就会通过代理和感恩来生活。
So here, both are active words.
所以在这里，两者都是主动词。
So agency, it's easier to see.
所以代理，更容易看到。
It's an active word where I'm aware of my ability to project myself into the world around me.
这是一个活跃的词，我意识到自己有能力将自己投射到周围的世界中。
I know that I can't control everything.
我知道我无法控制一切。
But I'm really trying to understand what can I control?
但我真的很想了解我能控制什么？
How can I control it?
我怎样才能控制它？
What do my decisions now lead to in the future?
我现在的决定会对未来产生什么影响？
So agency is very, very active.
所以代理机构非常非常活跃。
Gratitude is active, too.
感恩也是积极的。
Because we're bringing an active sense of gratitude, a sense of the amazingness that we're here, and pride in ourselves and others for being here and trying to move forward as best we can.
因为我们带来了一种积极的感激之情，一种我们在这里的惊奇感，以及为我们自己和其他人来到这里并尽力向前迈进而感到自豪。
And then we bring that to our interactions.
然后我们将其带入我们的互动中。
We're much more likely to have a kind gesture towards others instead of being angry.
我们更有可能对他人表现出友善的姿态，而不是生气。
We're much more likely to have something compassionate to say, including to ourselves, than we are to have something angry to say.
我们更有可能说一些富有同情心的话，包括对自己说的话，而不是说一些愤怒的话。
That gratitude accompanies agency.
这种感激之情伴随着能动性。
They're active words, and they're active together.
它们是活跃的词，而且它们一起活跃。
And if we're living life through agency and gratitude, there's a lot of wisdom about this.
如果我们通过代理和感恩来生活，那么这方面就有很多智慧。
There's a lot that's been written and researched about this.
关于这一点已经有很多文章和研究。
And if you look at what is it telling us, remember, things are getting simpler as we're getting higher up the levels here.
如果你看看它告诉我们什么，请记住，随着我们在这里的水平越来越高，事情变得越来越简单。
The unconscious mind is most complicated.
无意识的心灵是最复杂的。
Now we're at, can we live our lives with agency and gratitude at the forefront, and what does it bring for us?
现在我们面临的问题是，我们能否以代理和感恩的态度来生活，这会给我们带来什么？
And I think it brings what we are seeking.
我认为它带来了我们正在寻求的东西。
That we might say, okay, we're seeking happiness, and that can mean a lot of different things, and it can be a very active thing.
我们可能会说，好吧，我们正在寻求幸福，这可能意味着很多不同的事情，而且它可能是一件非常积极的事情。
Am I happy in the moment?
此刻我快乐吗？
And we can use happiness sometimes to distract ourselves.
有时我们可以利用快乐来分散自己的注意力。
Happiness is important, but words, when people really think, what is it that they want or what is it that they have?
幸福固然重要，但是言语，当人们真正思考时，他们想要什么或者他们拥有什么？
If they're overjoyed to be alive, they're finding a sense of peace.
如果他们为自己还活着而感到欣喜，那么他们就会找到一种平静的感觉。
They're finding contentment.
他们正在寻找满足感。
They're finding delight, the ability to be delighted.
他们正在寻找快乐，找到快乐的能力。
This is what people want.
这就是人们想要的。
Our human history and our searchings tell us this, and our own experiences tell us this.
我们的人类历史和我们的探索告诉我们这一点，我们自己的经历也告诉我们这一点。
And now it could lead a person to think, well, okay, what's going on?
现在它可能会导致一个人思考，好吧，发生了什么事？
Is this someone who's levitating at the top of a mountain?
这是悬浮在山顶的人吗？
Is this just a state?
这只是一种状态吗？
Is this a state that people are in?
人就是这样的状态吗？
And the answer is no. There'll be some times we could be in that state where we can feel peace.
答案是否定的。有时候我们可能会处于那种感到平静的状态。
There's no tension inside of us.
我们内心没有紧张。
I have times when I don't feel tension inside of me.
有时我内心并不感到紧张。
There's contentment, there's peace.
有满足，就有平安。
I don't have to drive towards anything.
我不必驱车前往任何事物。
But it's not the passive experience of it because we are living life.
但这不是它的被动体验，因为我们正在生活。
It's that that feeling goes hand in hand with a drive within us, that when we're in this healthy place, we are living life.
这种感觉与我们内心的动力齐头并进，当我们处于这个健康的地方时，我们就是在过生活。
The decisions that we're making, what is putting the rubber to the road, it is a generative drive within us.
我们正在做出的决定，是什么让橡胶上路，这是我们内心的生成动力。
There is a drive to make things better, to understand, to explore, and it's that drive that we access and cultivate.
我们有一种让事情变得更好、去理解、去探索的动力，而这正是我们获取和培养的动力。
And synonymous with happiness is it's not just the state when people want to be happy in that very, very general way.
幸福的同义词不仅仅是人们希望以非常非常普遍的方式获得幸福的状态。
Yes, contentment, peace, delight, but they're happening as we're living life, as we're enacting a generative drive where we're looking at ourselves and the world around us, and we're interested in understanding.
是的，满足、平静、喜悦，但它们发生在我们的生活中，当我们在观察自己和周围的世界时，当我们产生一种生成驱动力时，我们有兴趣去理解。
We're interested in making things better, and that's the place that we're trying to get to.
我们有兴趣让事情变得更好，这就是我们想要达到的目标。
I believe that with all my heart and my brain, my education, training, experience, and also experience living life and for 20 years doing this work with people tells me this is what we're seeking, and it's an active way of experiencing ourselves and our place in life.
我相信，我全心全意、全心全意、我所接受的教育、培训、经验以及生活经验，以及与人们一起从事这项工作 20 年的经历告诉我，这就是我们所追求的，这是体验我们自己和我们在生活中的地位的一种积极方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love that because it merges both the nouns and the adjectives and the verbs.
我喜欢它，因为它融合了名词、形容词和动词。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this notion of a generative drive to me is so compelling because I have the sense, and I hope I'm right, that we all have some sort of generative drive within us, starting at an early stage.
这种生成内驱力的概念对我来说是如此引人注目，因为我有一种感觉，而且我希望我是对的，我们内心都有某种生成内驱力，从早期阶段就开始了。
Maybe it even starts as visual foraging or touching things with our hands as an infant, and exploration of the world is what brings about the changes in the neural circuitry that allow us to engage even more, and in progressively, on the one hand, narrower ways, but also with more richness and more detail.
也许它甚至开始于婴儿时期的视觉觅食或用手触摸事物，对世界的探索带来了神经回路的变化，使我们能够参与更多的活动，一方面逐渐以更狭窄的方式参与，但也变得更丰富和更多细节。
Could you tell us more about generative drive and how this shows up in different types of people?
您能告诉我们更多关于生成内驱力的信息以及它如何在不同类型的人身上表现出来吗？
Is it always positive?
总是积极的吗？
Can there be too much of it?
会不会太多了？
I certainly know a number of people who are addicted to work.
我当然认识很多沉迷于工作的人。
For those of you listening, I'm raising my hand.
对于那些正在听的人，我举手。
But I would say nowadays, I'm not as addicted to work as I once was in the sense that I derive far more satisfaction from less work now, provided that the work is really in-depth.
但我想说，如今，我不再像以前那样沉迷于工作，因为现在的工作量减少了，但只要工作真正深入，我就能获得更多的满足感。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think that there were years in graduate school where I wanted to publish a bunch of papers and then quickly realized, through the not-so-gentle persuasion of my mentors, that let's just do the best possible work we can do, and there's so much more richness and experience and things to be gained from that.
我想，在研究生院的那些年里，我想发表一堆论文，然后通过导师不那么温和的劝说，我很快意识到，让我们尽我们所能做最好的工作，从中可以获得更多的丰富、经验和东西。
So I'm familiar with generative drive as I understand it, but maybe if you would, if you could flesh out a bit of what generative drive is, and does it arrive in parallel with or before we are able to access peace, contentment, and delight?
因此，我对我所理解的生成内驱力很熟悉，但也许如果你愿意的话，如果你能具体说明生成内驱力是什么，它是否与我们能够获得平静、满足和快乐同时或之前出现？
Can it even be separated out from that?
甚至可以从中分离出来吗？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What is this generative drive?
这个生成驱动力是什么？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So drives are built into us, so they're synonymous with our existence.
因此，内驱力是我们体内固有的，因此它们是我们存在的代名词。
If we exist, then we have the drive.
如果我们存在，那么我们就有动力。
That's how the drive is defined, okay?
这就是驱动器的定义方式，好吗？
And we understand, going far back to psychodynamic and psychoanalytic roots and when people were really thinking hard about human beings and what's going on inside of us, that we've sort of identified and then validated over the period of time since, that we have aggressive drives within us, and we have drives towards pleasure.
我们明白，追溯到心理动力学和精神分析的根源，当人们真正认真思考人类和我们内心发生的事情时，我们已经识别并验证了从那以后的一段时间，我们内心有攻击性的驱动力，我们有追求快乐的驱动力。
Now, this often gets misunderstood.
现在，这经常被误解。
So aggression, it can be active, violent aggression, for example, but aggression can also be a sense of agency, right?
因此，侵略，例如，它可以是主动的、暴力的侵略，但侵略也可以是一种代理感，对吧？
The inaction of agency.
代理机构不作为。
I want to do things.
我想做事。
I want to change things.
我想改变一些事情。
I want to make the world a different place.
我想让世界变得不同。
All of that comes under this drive.
所有这一切都在这个驱动下。
So an aggressive drive is not a bad thing.
因此，激进的驾驶并不是坏事。
If we had no aggressive drives, the thought is we'd just lie down and nothing else would happen, and then we'd all be gone, right?
如果我们没有侵略性的驱动力，我们就会躺下，什么也不会发生，然后我们就都消失了，对吗？
So there's a way in which this drive within us moves us forward.
因此，我们内心的这种动力有一种方式可以推动我们前进。
And of course, it's extremely complicated, the ways we can manifest too much of it or too little of it, or how our defense mechanisms can intertwine with the drive.
当然，它是极其复杂的，我们表现得太多或太少的方式，或者我们的防御机制如何与内驱力交织在一起。
But the drive is there.
但驱动器就在那里。
It's like it's fuel within us that comes with our existence, and then how that fuel moves us forward, how much of it there is, that is determined by the meshing of the drive with how we're living life.
这就像我们存在时附带的我们体内的燃料，然后这种燃料如何推动我们前进，它有多少，这是由驱动力与我们生活方式的啮合决定的。
And the same would be true of pleasure.
快乐也是如此。
The pleasure drive doesn't just mean that we all want to be hedonists inside.
享乐驱动力不仅仅意味着我们都想成为内心的享乐主义者。
It means that we want things that are gratifying.
这意味着我们想要令人满足的事情。
We want to feel good.
我们想要感觉良好。
This isn't just the drive towards physical pleasure, like a sex drive or eating food or having comfort.
这不仅仅是追求身体愉悦的动力，如性欲、饮食或舒适。
All of that can be part of it, but it's a drive for relief.
所有这些都可以成为其中的一部分，但这是一种缓解压力的动力。
The idea that we don't want to be white-knuckling life, searching for pleasure, so it's having aggression within us as we white-knuckle life and we search for some pleasure and relief.
我们不想过着紧张的生活，寻找快乐，所以当我们紧张的生活，寻找快乐和解脱时，我们内心就会产生攻击性。
These drives within us can be healthy.
我们体内的这些驱动力可以是健康的。
They can be unhealthy.
它们可能不健康。
They can be anything.
它们可以是任何东西。
They're wellsprings within us that then fuel us forward.
它们是我们内心的源泉，推动我们前进。
And there's controversy to the idea of is there a generative drive, and there's certainly parts of the field that do not think so.
关于是否存在生成驱动力的想法存在争议，而且该领域肯定有部分人不这么认为。
But there have been strong thinkers in the field that have thought we do have a generative drive, that it is within us to look around us, to be curious, to be amazed, to think, how can I engage with this and make this better or happier?
但该领域有一些强有力的思想家认为我们确实有一种生成动力，我们的内在有一种观察周围、好奇、惊讶、思考的能力，我怎样才能参与其中并使其变得更好或更快乐？
To think outside of ourselves.
跳出我们自己的思维。
To think, if I feel good and you're in pain, can I make you feel better?
想一想，如果我感觉很好而你很痛苦，我能让你感觉好一点吗？
Having nothing to do with me.
与我无关。
The idea of altruism coming to the fore and having industriousness within us.
利他主义的理念凸显出来，我们内心也充满勤奋。
And the idea that there is a generative drive, it's strengthened when you look at how humans behave when we're not struggling.
当你观察人类在不挣扎时的行为方式时，你就会发现，存在着一种生成驱动力的想法会得到加强。
That people are interested in learning.
人们对学习感兴趣。
You think about how much people give of themselves to learning or to serving others.
你想想人们有多少奉献自己来学习或服务他人。
There's so much of this goodness in the world around us.
我们周围的世界有很多这样的美好事物。
Now, if we shut people away, imagine, God forbid, someone is in a solitary confinement from the moment they're born, then there's not an opportunity for the generative drive to thrive.
现在，如果我们将人们拒之门外，想象一下，上帝保佑，某人从出生那一刻起就处于单独的监禁之中，那么就没有机会让生殖动力蓬勃发展。
And we see so many situations where it doesn't thrive enough.
我们看到很多情况都不够蓬勃发展。
Violence in people's surroundings, lack of opportunities.
人们周围充满暴力，缺乏机会。
That we can squelch a generative drive, anyone's generative drive.
我们可以压制任何人的生成动力。
But if we give ourselves opportunities, if we're healthy, that we're not weighed down by trauma and illness and misperceptions of self, and we can live life in a way that brings us to agency and gratitude, now we're allying with the generative drive that I absolutely believe is within us.
但是，如果我们给自己机会，如果我们是健康的，我们不会被创伤、疾病和自我误解所压垮，我们可以以一种让我们充满代理感和感恩的方式生活，那么现在我们就与我绝对相信我们内在的生成动力结盟了。
I think just look at life.
我觉得还是看看生活吧。
Look at human beings.
看看人类。
We observe that we have this drive within us, and if that drive is at the forefront and that drive then naturally, of course, allies with agency and gratitude, then I think we're at the place that is the place we ultimately seek.
我们观察到，我们内心有这种驱动力，如果这种驱动力处于最前沿，那么这种驱动力当然会自然而然地与代理和感恩结盟，那么我认为我们就处于我们最终寻求的地方。
And that we can find it for brief periods of time.
我们可以在短时间内找到它。
So by really pursuing this, and really strongly in my own therapy and reflection and attempts to understand, I can have periods of time where I can feel that way.
因此，通过真正追求这一点，并在我自己的治疗和反思中真正强烈地尝试理解，我可以有一段时间有这种感觉。
I can feel outward growth and interest in the world, and I feel good.
我能感受到外在的成长和对世界的兴趣，我感觉很好。
I'm not trying to answer some question of why am I alive?
我并不是想回答“我为什么活着？”的问题。
I'm doing things that I feel good about, and I feel good about Doing those things and about being in the world.
我正在做一些让我感觉良好的事情，并且我对做这些事情以及身处这个世界感觉良好。
And I think this is not uncommon.
我认为这并不罕见。
It may be far more common in societies that are allegedly less advanced, that have less distractions or maybe less knowledge of all the awful things in the world that can happen to us that are constantly fed to us.
在据称不太先进、干扰较少或对世界上可能发生在我们身上的所有可怕事情了解较少的社会中，这种情况可能要普遍得多。
There are a whole bunch of other questions and topics about it.
还有很多其他问题和主题。
But I have this absolute belief that there's this generative drive in us that wants to ally with agency and gratitude, and that we all have it within us to bring those to the forefront and to find that thing that we seek, whether this person says it's nirvana, the other person says it's joy or happiness or peace or numbing.
但我绝对相信，我们体内有这种生成动力，想要与能动性和感恩结盟，而且我们所有人都拥有将它们带到最前沿并找到我们所寻求的东西的能力，无论这个人说它是涅槃，另一个人说它是快乐或幸福或和平或麻木。
Whatever it is, there's something to it where we're not feeling the tension within us.
不管是什么，总有一些事情让我们感觉不到内心的紧张。
We're not feeling the anxiety, the pressures, but we're feeling a sense of goodness.
我们没有感受到焦虑、压力，但我们感受到了一种美好的感觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The way you're describing it makes perfect sense why peace, contentment, and delight would be so closely linked to this generative drive.
你所描述的方式非常有道理，为什么和平、满足和喜悦与这种生成动力如此紧密地联系在一起。
The word peace, as you alluded to, often brings to mind the idea of passivity, but generative drive and the inclusion of things like aggression and a drive for pleasure are anything but passive.
正如你提到的，“和平”这个词经常让人想起被动的想法，但生成驱动力以及包括攻击性和追求快乐的驱动力等东西绝不是被动的。
So I think that's important for me and for everyone to understand, that peace, contentment, and delight can really be action terms.
所以我认为这对我和每个人来说都很重要，理解和平、满足和快乐确实可以成为行动术语。
Again, moving them from the more typical conception of them to verb states.
再次，将它们从更典型的概念转移到动词状态。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
So peace, contentment, and delight are not passive states.
因此，平静、满足和喜悦并不是消极的状态。
There can be periods of time where we can be just very peaceful and very much at rest.
有时候，我们可以非常平静、非常放松。
But those words are not synonymous with inaction.
但这些话并不代表无所作为。
In fact, they're synonymous with action a lot of the time.
事实上，很多时候它们是行动的代名词。
If we are suffused with peace, contentment, the ability to delight, then what we're doing is we're raising up the generative drive.
如果我们充满了平和、满足、快乐的能力，那么我们所做的就是提高生成动力。
We're making conditions that are permissive for the generative drive to come to the forefront.
我们正在创造有利于生成动力发挥作用的条件。
To be paramount over the aggressive and the pleasure drives.
超越攻击性和享乐性。
And remember, we're not trying to get rid of those drives.
请记住，我们并不是试图摆脱这些驱动器。
We just want the generative drive in us to be at the forefront.
我们只是希望我们的生成动力处于最前沿。
Then we'll be able to harness the aggressive drive through, for example, a strong sense of agency, fueling the sense of agency forward as opposed to destructive aggression.
然后，我们将能够通过例如强烈的代理意识来利用攻击性动力，增强代理意识，而不是破坏性的攻击。
The search for pleasure, which sure, can include physical pleasures in ways that are good and reasonable and healthy for us, but also the pleasure of learning.
对快乐的追求当然可以包括对我们有益、合理和健康的身体快乐，也包括学习的快乐。
The pleasure that altruism brings.
利他主义带来的快乐。
That we can take the aggressive drive that we know is in us and the pleasure drive that we know is in us, and we can dial them to the right places.
我们可以利用我们所知道的积极进取的动力和我们所知道的快乐的动力，并且我们可以将它们调到正确的位置。
This gets very complicated, and it's easy to dial that too far up, and it's easy to dial it too far down.
这变得非常复杂，很容易把它调得太高，也很容易把它调得太低。
But if both are serving the generative drive, because we lift up the generative drive and we bring it to primacy by being able to handle our lives, to understand ourselves, to go back to those pillars and to build upon it the agency and the gratitude that then leads us to peace, contentment, and delight.
但如果两者都服务于生成内驱力，因为我们提升了生成内驱力，并通过能够处理我们的生活、了解自己、回到这些支柱并在此基础上建立能动性和感激之情，将其置于首要地位，从而引导我们走向平静、满足和快乐。
We can put all of this together, and we're really and truly living in an active way in the world that's good for us, good for the world around us, and doesn't leave us with a sense of yearning or sense of tension within us.
我们可以把所有这些放在一起，我们真正以一种积极的方式生活在这个世界上，这对我们有好处，对我们周围的世界有好处，并且不会给我们留下一种向往或紧张的感觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you think it's also the case that generative drive has kind of a self-amplification feature to it?
您是否认为生成内驱力也具有某种自我放大功能？
What comes to mind as you're describing generative drive and its relationship to peace, contentment, and delight is that approximately a half hour after I wake up, I start to feel more physically energized.
当你描述生成内驱力及其与平静、满足和快乐的关系时，我想到的是，在我醒来大约半小时后，我开始感到身体更加精力充沛。
I'm not somebody who just pops out of bed and is ready to go exercise or do mental work.
我不是那种从床上爬起来就准备去锻炼或做脑力劳动的人。
But about 30 minutes or so after waking, my mind starts to wake up, and I've noticed that if I read a scientific paper or if I read a chapter in a book, or if I do something that feels a little bit difficult-
但醒来后大约30分钟左右，我的头脑开始清醒，我注意到如果我读了一篇科学论文，或者读了一本书的一个章节，或者如果我做了一些感觉有点困难的事情——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
cognitively difficult in particular, that the sense of satisfaction that I get from that is immense.
尤其是认知上的困难，我从中获得的满足感是巨大的。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's not necessarily the case that I have to learn something that I'm going to use that day, but for me, learning and often learning and sharing what I learn with the world, whether or not they want to hear it or not-
我不一定要学一些我那天会用到的东西，但对我来说，学习并经常学习并与世界分享我学到的东西，无论他们是否想听——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is part of my pleasure loop.
是我快乐循环的一部分。
And I've learned that if I don't capture some new knowledge in a way that's challenging in the morning time, I feel like the gears are still turning, but I start to lose energy.
我了解到，如果我不在早上以一种具有挑战性的方式捕捉一些新知识，我会感觉齿轮仍在转动，但我开始失去能量。
Whereas if I find something interesting in particular and write it down and I feel like I own it, that's what I enjoy so much about learning.
然而，如果我发现一些特别有趣的东西并将其写下来，并且我觉得我拥有它，那就是我非常喜欢学习的原因。
It's like it's in there.
就好像它就在那里一样。
Maybe it'll be useful at some point, maybe it won't, but it's like an animal finding a tool that it can maybe use to forage more effectively later in life.
也许它在某个时候有用，也许不会，但这就像动物找到了一种工具，可以在以后的生活中更有效地觅食。
I get such a sense of satisfaction that then I find that I have immense energy to do whatever is next.
我得到了一种满足感，然后我发现我有巨大的能量去做接下来的事情。
Like whether or not that's exercise or learn more, or prepare a podcast or write a grant or-
比如这是否是锻炼或了解更多，或准备播客或写赠款或-
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
That's great
太好了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or work on a paper.
或写论文。
And this feature of my mental life is so prominent that I almost have to force myself to do it each day.
而我精神生活的这个特点是如此突出，以至于我几乎每天都必须强迫自己这样做。
And there are so many distractions in the world nowadays that I've come to a place where I almost have to force myself to do what I know works for me.
如今世界上有如此多的干扰，我几乎不得不强迫自己做我知道对我有用的事情。
But when I do, it feels almost like a chemical rocket fuel.
但当我这样做时，感觉就像是化学火箭燃料。
And it doesn't make me manic or crazy.
它不会让我狂躁或疯狂。
I don't need to pick up the phone and call somebody or tell everybody about or post it on social media.
我不需要拿起电话给某人打电话或告诉每个人或将其发布在社交媒体上。
It's more of a deep sense of satisfaction and I get energy from it.
更多的是一种深深的满足感，我从中获得能量。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
It's great.
这很棒。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that the generative drive?
这就是生成驱动力吗？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Well, it's great that that works for you.
嗯，这对你有用真是太好了。
What you're saying is that for you, you can prime your generative drive that way, right?
你的意思是，对你来说，你可以通过这种方式激发你的生成动力，对吗？
And then you prime it, you prime the pump, it gets revved up, right?
然后你启动它，你启动泵，它就会加速，对吗？
And then it's really manifesting itself inside of you.
然后它就真正在你内心显现出来。
There's many different manifestations of the generative drive as there are people, right?
因为有不同的人，生成内驱力就有很多种不同的表现形式，对吧？
So some things are going to work for some person, other things are going to work for a different person, right?
所以有些事情对某些人有效，而另一些事情对不同的人有效，对吗？
But you're saying that, "Hey, I know this thing works for me, and even though sometimes it's not easy to do, I do it, and then look what it gets for me," right?
但你是说，“嘿，我知道这件事对我有用，尽管有时不容易做到，但我会这样做，然后看看它会给我带来什么，”对吗？
And that's really healthy, right?
这真的很健康，对吧？
It's like knowing that this thing works for you, and then you become committed to it because your generative drive is really strongly supported by it, right?
这就像知道这件事对你有用，然后你就会致力于它，因为你的生成动力确实得到了它的强烈支持，对吗？
And then you have this sense of good feeling, right?
然后你就会有这种良好的感觉，对吗？
So then you have the peace, and you have just the overall sense of goodness, right?
那么你就有了平安，你就有了整体的美好感，对吧？
The peace and contentment and delight.
平安、满足和喜悦。
You're getting that in learning and in teaching.
你可以在学习和教学中得到这一点。
So you're figuring out, like, "Hey, this works for me," right?
所以你会想，“嘿，这对我有用，”对吧？
And again, you don't have to figure it out through this lens.
再说一次，你不必通过这个镜头来弄清楚。
It's if we find parts that aren't working, then we go back and we figure them out, right?
如果我们发现零件不起作用，那么我们就会回去解决它们，对吧？
Maybe a good example maybe is, so let's say you take someone who really enjoys gardening and gets something out of gardening, right?
也许一个很好的例子是，假设你找了一个真正喜欢园艺的人，并从园艺中得到了一些东西，对吧？
So there are as many generative drives in how they're measured out as there are humans, but there can be common outcomes of them, right?
因此，有多少人就有多少生成性驱动力，但它们可能会产生共同的结果，对吗？
So the enjoyment of fostering plants, growing a garden, that's not uncommon in humans, right?
因此，培育植物、打造花园的乐趣对于人类来说并不少见，对吧？
So imagine someone who hasn't been doing that, right?
所以想象一下一个没有这样做过的人，对吧？
They really want to, they have a drive to do it.
他们真的想这么做，他们有动力去做。
There's a plot of land in the back that they used to cultivate, right?
后面有块地是他们以前耕种的吧？
So if they're not doing it, there are any number of reasons.
因此，如果他们不这样做，原因有很多。
Maybe they were depressed and they needed mental health treatment.
也许他们很沮丧，需要心理健康治疗。
Maybe they just got away from the path that they were on.
也许他们只是偏离了原来的道路。
Maybe their defenses shifted a little bit.
也许他们的防御发生了一些变化。
Whatever the case may be, they go back to the pillars and they figure it out, right?
无论情况如何，他们都会回到支柱并找出答案，对吗？
And now they're in accord with themselves, right?
现在他们已经和自己一致了，对吗？
And they're living through agency and gratitude, and they feel like, "Well, I can go back out there and I can till that land.
他们靠代理和感恩生活，他们感觉，“好吧，我可以回到那里，我可以耕种那片土地。
I can get the hoe out.
我可以把锄头拿出来。
I can make the plots.
我可以做情节。
I'm going to put the seeds in.
我要把种子放进去
I'm going to nurture.
我去养。
I can go do that.
我可以去这么做。
And I can do it even what?
我什至可以做到什么？
Even though I was depressed, even though somebody assaulted me five months ago, even though I lost my job, even though," right?
尽管我很沮丧，尽管五个月前有人袭击了我，尽管我丢了工作，尽管，”对吧？
They overcome the even those, right?
他们甚至克服了那些，对吗？
And the sense of agency tells them, "Right, I can go do that," right?
代理感告诉他们，“好吧，我可以这么做，”对吧？
And the sense of gratitude, no one who's miserable and now is in such an awful position about life because they were attacked or lost their job or something bad happened, whatever it may be, or they're lost in cynicism.
还有一种感激之情，没有人因为受到攻击、失去工作或发生了不好的事情（无论是什么）而感到痛苦，现在生活处于如此糟糕的境地，或者他们迷失在愤世嫉俗之中。
There's no gratitude there, right?
那里没有感激之情，对吗？
It's a gratitude for being in life, for having the capability of going back and planting seeds in that garden.
这是对生活的感激，对有能力回去并在那个花园里播种的能力的感激。
That's the alliance between agency and gratitude, and then the person goes and does that, right?
这就是能动性和感恩之间的联盟，然后这个人就去做了，对吗？
So think of what's going on there.
所以想想那里发生了什么。
They do this thing.
他们做这件事。
They feel good about this thing.
他们对这件事感觉很好。
They can look out at the garden, feel some peace, right?
他们可以眺望花园，感受到一些平静，对吧？
Feel some contentment to them.
为他们感到一些满足。
Be delighted by what they did.
对他们所做的感到高兴。
Remember how much they loved it before, how much it means to them.
记住他们以前多么喜欢它，它对他们来说意味着什么。
So yes, that goodness comes, that goodness suffuses us, and it raises up the generative drive that says, right, it's good.
所以，是的，善良来了，善良充满了我们，它提高了生成动力，说，对，这是好的。
We breathe some life into it, right?
我们给它注入了一些生命，对吗？
Enough to get that garden done.
足以完成那个花园了。
Now the generative drive is further fostered forward by the goodness the person feels.
现在，人们感受到的善良进一步促进了生成动力。
So the example, the difference between the person who wants a garden, feels terrible about themselves that they're not doing it, and feels lousy every time they look out the window, and there they are looking out the window, right?
所以这个例子，想要一个花园的人之间的区别，因为他们没有这样做而对自己感觉很糟糕，并且每次他们看着窗外时都感觉很糟糕，而他们正在看着窗外，对吧？
The difference between that and having made a garden and looking out the window at it is a night and day difference.
这与建造一个花园并望向窗外之间的区别是白天和黑夜的区别。
And the person who's looking out the window at the garden that they built, overcoming whatever was inside of them because they went and addressed it and proved to themselves that they could, that's what we're after in life, right?
那些看着窗外他们建造的花园的人，克服了他们内心的一切，因为他们去解决了这个问题，并向自己证明他们可以，这就是我们生活中所追求的，对吗？
We all know this.
我们都知道这一点。
It doesn't look like somebody levitating at the top of a mountain, right?
看起来不像有人悬浮在山顶，对吧？
That's what it looks like.
看起来就是这样。
The person looking out the window at the garden and thinking about what they overcame to create the garden and seeing the goodness of it all.
人们看着窗外的花园，思考他们为了创造花园而克服的困难，并看到这一切的美好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I'm glad you said the word creating because it seems it's about creating things.
我很高兴你提到了创造这个词，因为它似乎是关于创造事物的。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Real, tangible things, but that the process to get there is every bit as important as what's created.
真实的、有形的东西，但实现这一目标的过程与创造的东西一样重要。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
When you create knowledge, that's tangible, right?
当你创造知识时，它是有形的，对吧？
You create knowledge.
你创造知识。
Maybe that person looks down the row of beautiful flowers and has the same sense of goodness inside of them that you do when you're well.
也许那个人俯视着那排美丽的花朵，内心深处有着与你健康时一样的美好感。
Like, right, I just went and learned something.
就像，对，我刚刚去学到了一些东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As you describe that, I'm thinking I certainly hope so because for me it's an incredible sense of satisfaction and one that I enjoy so much that I almost don't want to look at it too much because to me it sits in this rare domain of perfect.
正如你所描述的那样，我想我当然希望如此，因为对我来说，这是一种令人难以置信的满足感，我非常喜欢这种满足感，以至于我几乎不想过多地看它，因为对我来说，它位于这个罕见的完美领域。
Like it just feels so good.
就像感觉很好一样。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that I can get back there is very comforting to me.
我能回到那里对我来说非常安慰。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
And that's all of this, that it feels so good.
这就是所有这一切，感觉很好。
That's what all this is.
这就是这一切。
It's the generative drive, right?
这就是生成驱动力，对吗？
It's the gratitude, right?
这就是感恩吧？
It's the contentment.
这就是满足感。
It's like all that coming together.
就像所有这些都聚集在一起一样。
And it's interesting, we could contrast that to when you talked about a repeated cycle that's negative, right?
有趣的是，我们可以将其与您谈到负面的重复循环时进行对比，对吧？
Then you're not feeling that, right?
那你就没有这种感觉了，对吧？
So think about the learning that can come from it, right?
那么想想可以从中学到什么，对吧？
That you can achieve this and feel this and be in this state in one aspect of your life.
你可以实现这一点，感受到这一点，并在生活的某一方面处于这种状态。
What can you learn from that to bring to the other place?
你能从中学到什么并带到其他地方？
And more, yes, that's important.
还有更多，是的，这很重要。
It's often starting with what's going on in the place that's not doing well, right?
通常是从做得不好的地方开始，对吗？
Like I said, why the repetition, right?
就像我说的，为什么要重复，对吧？
So this is how we can have what we're seeking in parts of our lives, even if we don't in others.
因此，这就是我们如何能够在生活的某些部分获得我们所寻求的东西，即使我们在其他生活中没有。
But if we can have it in parts of our lives, we can have it in others too, and we can become role models for ourselves.
但如果我们能在生活的某些方面拥有它，我们也可以在其他人身上拥有它，并且我们可以成为自己的榜样。
We can learn from ourselves.
我们可以向自己学习。
We can learn from what brings the good to how to raise up the things about us in our lives that aren't there yet.
我们可以从带来好处的事物中学习如何提升我们生活中尚未存在的事物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I often get the question from the general public: how can I stop overthinking?
我经常收到公众的疑问：我怎样才能停止过度思考？
I have to imagine, based on the fact that I get that question so often, that there are a great number of people who sense their own generative drive.
基于我经常收到这个问题的事实，我必须想象有很多人能够感受到自己的生成动力。
What are your thoughts on that?
您对此有何看法？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Thinking can be wonderful if we're using thinking to learn.
如果我们用思考来学习，思考就会变得很棒。
To figure things out.
要把事情弄清楚。
So when thinking is doing that, thinking is great.
因此，当思考这样做时，思考就很棒。
But a lot of thinking is just in the service of something else.
但很多思考只是为了其他事情服务。
And a lot of thinking works against us.
很多想法对我们不利。
So imagine the person making the garden.
想象一下建造花园的人。
Look, the person has to think about it.
看，这个人必须考虑一下。
They have to think about what seeds to make.
他们必须考虑要制作什么种子。
They have to think about where their tools are.
他们必须考虑他们的工具在哪里。
They have to think about what they're doing, when they're planting, when they're watering.
他们必须思考自己在做什么，什么时候播种，什么时候浇水。
There's a lot to do, but the beauty of it isn't in the thinking.
有很多事情要做，但它的美妙之处并不在于思考。
The thinking is in the service of what is generative.
思维是为生成性服务的。
So, that's a different kind.
所以，这是一种不同的类型。
It's just thinking in the service of something.
它只是在为某事服务而思考。
But a lot of our thinking is that.
但我们的很多想法都是这样的。
It's planning, it's projecting.
是计划，是预测。
We tend to glorify the planning and the projecting end, and it can be great when we're learning, when we're figuring things out.
我们倾向于美化计划和预测结果，当我们学习、解决问题时，这会很棒。
But a lot of that is there so that we can do the things that are good for us to do.
但其中有很多东西是为了让我们可以做对我们有益的事情。
The planning and the projecting around making the garden, where the point of it is the garden.
围绕花园的规划和规划，重点是花园。
It's not the thinking part.
这不是思考的部分。
We can also use thinking against us.
我们也可以用思想来反对我们。
So much thinking is repetitive and not just unproductive, but harmful.
如此多的思考是重复的，不仅没有成效，而且有害。
That person who's looking out the window at the garden may be thinking.
那个看着窗外花园的人可能正在思考。
Sometimes there are just pauses in our thinking, but a lot of times the person must be thinking and what often goes on there is just repetitive, negative thinking.
有时我们的思考只是停顿，但很多时候这个人必须在思考，而经常发生的只是重复的、消极的思考。
It's, "Gosh, I used to have a garden.
它是，“天哪，我曾经有一个花园。
I remember when that was beautiful." Or, "Remember before such and such a person passed away, and then we stopped making the garden," or, "I'll never be able to make a garden again," or, "Gosh, it's too much." It's just something that's negative and unproductive.
我记得那是美丽的时刻。”或者，“记得在某某人去世之前，然后我们停止建造花园”，或者，“我再也无法建造花园了”，或者，“天哪，这太多了。”这只是消极且无成效的事情。
What else is there to think?
还有什么可想的？
If the person's actually looking out the window at the garden, and they're in this sort of stuck state, they're not in a generative state, then the thinking becomes repetitive and it furthers all the negative.
如果这个人实际上正在看着窗外的花园，并且他们处于这种停滞状态，他们不处于生成状态，那么思维就会变得重复，并进一步加剧所有负面影响。
As you said, the more we further the negative, the more we take, if there's a four-lane highway that we want to atrophy, let's not make it into a six-lane highway.
正如你所说，我们越是消极，我们就越多，如果有一条四车道的高速公路我们想萎缩，我们就不要把它变成六车道的高速公路。
But we do that when we have this repetitive thinking, which then can evolve into the narratives, the things that we say to ourselves.
但当我们有这种重复的思考时，我们就会这样做，然后它就会演变成叙述，即我们对自己说的话。
So, thinking is wonderful.
所以，思考是美妙的。
Look, it's wonderful, but it can also just subserve something else, and it can also be used against us.
看，这很棒，但它也可以促进其他东西，也可以用来对付我们。
So what we're talking about here doesn't glorify thinking.
所以我们在这里谈论的并不是美化思考。
It does if it's in the service of the generative drive, but it doesn't in and of itself.
如果它为生成驱动力服务，它就会起作用，但它本身却不会。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think many people set a time, say 9:30 AM or 10:00 AM when they are going to begin doing something that they want to do or know they should do, that's a little bit challenging.
我认为很多人都会设定一个时间，比如上午 9:30 或上午 10:00，他们将开始做他们想做或知道应该做的事情，这有点具有挑战性。
Could be exercise, could be cognitively demanding work, and then 10:00 rolls around and they say, "Okay, 10:15." And they're distracted by often social media, texting.
可能是锻炼，可能是认知要求高的工作，然后 10:00 到了，他们说：“好吧，10:15。”他们经常被社交媒体和短信分散注意力。
These days, I think those are the main culprits, really.
如今，我认为这些确实是罪魁祸首。
I don't know too many people that get distracted by exercise and reading books.
我不知道有多少人因为锻炼和读书而分心。
Some do, and doing complex puzzles or math.
有些人会做，并做复杂的谜题或数学。
But social media is a little bit like mental chewing gum, except that I would add to that, that it's the kind of chewing gum that really does sate the appetite in a way that prevents you from eating nutritious food.
但社交媒体有点像精神口香糖，只不过我要补充一点，它是那种真正能满足食欲的口香糖，但会阻止你吃有营养的食物。
Unless used correctly, right?
除非使用得当，对吗？
And then people feel bad about themselves because the whole morning went by.
然后人们就会对自己感到难过，因为整个上午都过去了。
Now it's noon, then they require some food like any-
现在已经是中午了，他们需要一些食物——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
typical person.
典型的人。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they eat, then they might need a little nap for the-
他们吃东西，然后他们可能需要小睡一会儿——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
postprandial dip in energy.
餐后能量下降。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then the afternoon, and then it goes on and on.
然后是下午，然后就这样一直持续下去。
I hear this all the time.
我一直听到这个。
I've experienced this before, so I'm not immune to this myself.
我以前经历过这种情况，所以我自己也不能幸免。
That's why I try and capture that early wave of-
这就是为什么我尝试捕捉早期的浪潮-
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
energy, whatever it might be, adrenaline, noradrenaline, some combination.
能量，无论是什么，肾上腺素，去甲肾上腺素，某种组合。
The way you describe thinking and its potential relationship to generative drive, it seems to me it's so important that we capture those moments of potential creation, however small the action might be, to remind ourselves that we are capable of moving things from point A to point B.
你描述思维的方式及其与生成驱动力的潜在关系，在我看来，捕捉那些潜在创造的时刻非常重要，无论行动有多么小，以提醒自己我们有能力将事物从 A 点移动到 B 点。
Because in the description I just gave of the person that lets the morning escape, there's really no external barrier except these distractions.
因为在我刚才对让早晨逃脱的人的描述中，除了这些干扰之外，实际上没有任何外部障碍。
Put differently, all the tools exist within most all of us to be able to create what we want to create or at least to create something.
换句话说，我们大多数人体内都存在所有工具，以便能够创造我们想要创造的东西，或者至少创造一些东西。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And yet many, many people just don't fulfill that right that they were, and that we've all been given.
然而，很多很多人就是没有履行他们本来的权利，以及我们都被赋予的权利。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
So let's think about what's going on there.
那么让我们想想那里发生了什么。
So the person says, "I'm going to exercise at 10 o'clock." Now they push it back to 10:15, and they do something on social media, or they push it back to 10:30.
于是这个人就说：“我十点钟去锻炼。”现在他们把时间推迟到10点15分，然后在社交媒体上做一些事情，或者把时间推迟到10点30分。
"It'll be okay.
“会没事的。
I'll get it all in." What they're doing is they're engaging in unhealthy defense mechanisms.
我会把它全部放进去。”他们所做的就是参与不健康的防御机制。
So if we go back to the pillars, the structure of self, the function of self, there may be other reasons for it, but let's just identify the unhealthy defenses of avoidance and rationalization.
因此，如果我们回到支柱，自我的结构，自我的功能，可能还有其他原因，但让我们找出回避和合理化的不健康防御。
And then there's no thinking going on about that.
然后就没有再思考这个问题了。
They're just unconscious processes, and you kick it down the clock 15 minutes.
它们只是无意识的过程，你可以把时间推迟 15 分钟。
They're not thinking about it.
他们没有考虑这个。
Thinking then is subserving something different.
那么思考就是在追求不同的东西。
The thinking is subserving the avoidance.
这种想法是支持回避。
If I'm going to go look on something, read a couple things, reply, I'm thinking, I'm planning.
如果我要去看一些东西，读一些东西，回复，我在想，我在计划。
Maybe I got to get the phone out.
也许我得把电话拿出来。
I got to tap my code into it.
我必须将我的代码敲入其中。
I got to go to a certain website.
我必须去某个网站。
We're doing something that we're thinking about it.
我们正在做一些我们正在思考的事情。
I think about what I'm going to write back, but the thinking is all in the service of the unhealthy defenses.
我思考我要写回什么，但所有的思考都是为了不健康的防御。
So then by understanding ourselves better, we can bring that to a healthier place.
因此，通过更好地了解自己，我们可以将其带到一个更健康的地方。
How?
如何？
By actually using thinking for what helps us.
通过实际思考对我们有帮助的事情。
So let's think.
那么让我们想想。
Let's say if you're doing that, okay, what's going on when you're doing that?
假设你正在这样做，好吧，当你这样做时会发生什么？
So you really want to exercise.
所以你真的很想锻炼。
But it's not easy to exercise.
但锻炼起来并不容易。
And sometimes maybe just problem-solving.
有时也许只是解决问题。
Are you doing a thing you like?
你在做自己喜欢的事情吗？
Maybe something you like more, there's lower barrier, et cetera.
也许你更喜欢一些东西，门槛较低等等。
But let's say we're just working within the psychological.
但假设我们只是在心理范围内工作。
Then you can come at that a couple of ways, like, "Oh, I don't want to do that thing.
然后你可以通过几种方式来表达这一点，比如，“哦，我不想做那件事。
That thing's hard." I think that about things in my life sometimes, and it always makes me weighty and unhappy.
那件事很难。”我有时会这样想我生活中的事情，这总是让我感到沉重和不快乐。
I may as well put 20-pound weights on either side of me.
我不妨在身体两侧各放 20 磅的重物。
I can look at it that way.
我可以这样看。
Or there's a different way of looking at it that actually fits much better, which is, I'm not daunted by doing difficult things, and I can get out there and apply myself and I feel good about that when I do difficult things.
或者有一种不同的看待它的方式，实际上更适合，也就是说，我不会因为做困难的事情而被吓倒，我可以走出去，全身心投入，当我做困难的事情时，我感觉很好。
It's part of my identity.
这是我身份的一部分。
It's part of how I see myself.
这是我如何看待自己的一部分。
So, right, I'm going to go do this thing, and I'm going to feel good about it, and isn't it amazing that I get to do it?
所以，对吧，我要做这件事，我会感觉很好，我能做这件事不是很神奇吗？
Look, here I am, I'm alive, I'm healthy.
看，我在这里，我还活着，我很健康。
I can go do this thing.
我可以去做这件事。
My health is good, but I want to make it better by working out, or I'm at least alive, and if I lose a little bit of weight, I'll feel healthier.
我的健康状况很好，但我想通过锻炼让它变得更好，或者至少我还活着，如果我减掉一点体重，我会感觉更健康。
Come on, this is good.
来吧，这很好。
And then I'll feel different about that.
然后我就会对此有不同的感觉。
And the truth is one or the other.
事实是其中之一。
It's like, oh, both can be true.
就像，哦，两者都可以是真的。
Now, what will be true is what you choose.
现在，什么才是真实的，取决于你的选择。
And if you choose the negative, then yes, the unhealthy defense is perpetuated, and even if you get yourself to do it today, it's harder to do it tomorrow.
如果你选择否定，那么是的，不健康的防御就会永久存在，即使你今天让自己这样做，明天也很难做到。
That's why sometimes I'll say to a person, "Just take a look at it and decide if you want to do it or not.
这就是为什么有时我会对一个人说：“看看它，然后决定是否要做。
If you don't want to exercise, just decide you don't." And then, okay, there's a trade-off for everything.
如果你不想锻炼，就决定不锻炼。”然后，好吧，一切都需要权衡。
Maybe you're okay with the trade-off.
也许你可以接受这种权衡。
But what am I trying to do there?
但我想在那里做什么呢？
Is bring to consciousness that that person is making a choice.
是让人们意识到那个人正在做出选择。
Do you want to do it?
你想做吗？
If you want to do it, it's great to just do it.
如果你想做的话，直接去做就好了。
And if you don't, it's great to not do it.
如果你不这样做，那么不这样做也很好。
Then at least you're being honest and clear with yourself, and you're not wasting all that time when you keep kicking it 15 minutes down the clock until it's too late.
那么至少你对自己是诚实和清晰的，并且当你不断地拖延15分钟直到为时已晚时，你就不会浪费所有时间。
Does that make sense?
这有道理吗？
That's how I think how the structure here really does-- It works because it's pulling together what we know from the biology to the psychology of how to understand ourselves and how to understand when things aren't the way we want them to be so that we can make them the way we want them to be.
这就是我认为这里的结构的真正作用——它之所以有效，是因为它汇集了我们从生物学到心理学的知识，了解如何理解我们自己，以及如何理解当事情没有按照我们想要的方式发展，这样我们就可以让它们按照我们想要的方式发展。
It's not magic.
这不是魔法。
It's following the sort of mathematical aspects of going to the factors, assessing them, making changes, and then, of course, we see the outcome we want to see.
它遵循数学方面的因素，评估它们，做出改变，然后，当然，我们看到了我们想要看到的结果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The way you describe it does make sense, and I appreciate it, because I think ultimately it seems to ratchet back to actions, to verbs, to bring us to these feeling states that I think are what people are seeking.
你描述它的方式确实有道理，我很欣赏它，因为我认为最终它似乎会回到行动、动词，把我们带到我认为人们正在寻求的这些感觉状态。
Peace, contentment, delight, through agency, gratitude as active terms.
和平、满足、喜悦，通过代理、感恩作为积极的术语。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think these are universal desires.
我认为这些都是普遍的愿望。
And again, you're providing this wonderful roadmap for people to arrive there.
再说一遍，您为人们提供了到达那里的精彩路线图。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I do have a question about some of the underpinnings of generative drive, in particular this notion of aggressive drive.
我确实对生成内驱力的一些基础有疑问，特别是攻击性内驱力的概念。
I've known people that seem to have a lot of this.
我认识的人似乎有很多这样的经历。
They just have a lot of get up and go, or a lot of drive to create in the world or to figure things out.
他们只是有很多起床和出发的动力，或者有很大的动力去创造世界或解决问题。
They often do create great lives for themselves in work, in relationship, et cetera.
他们经常在工作、人际关系等方面为自己创造美好的生活。
I've also observed that these people often don't have the best relationship to themselves or that they run up against barriers or frankly, sometimes straight into brick walls, in certain domains of their life, perhaps as a consequence of having too much of this generative or aggressive drive.
我还观察到，这些人往往与自己没有最好的关系，或者他们在生活的某些领域遇到障碍，或者坦率地说，有时直接撞到砖墙，这可能是由于有太多的这种生成或攻击性驱动力的结果。
And at the same time, I know that there are people in the world, many, that have what seems to be a low generative drive.
与此同时，我知道世界上有很多人的生成动力似乎很低。
I don't know if that's the case or not, but they seem to have a hard time engaging in doing things.
我不知道是不是这样，但他们似乎很难投入到做事中。
And often you get the impression that they somewhat are completely given up.
通常你会觉得他们有些完全放弃了。
Like life is just too hard.
就像生活太艰难一样。
Or sometimes it's even more subtle.
或者有时甚至更加微妙。
I know someone who, they like their job, but they've come to the place that it's just work.
我认识一些人，他们喜欢自己的工作，但他们已经到了这只是工作的地步。
It's a paycheck, and that might be enough.
这是一份薪水，也许就足够了。
But they're always talking about it, so I have to assume that it's not enough.
但他们总是在谈论它，所以我不得不假设这还不够。
They aren't able to slot their work into one domain and just focus on the other aspects of their life that are going well.
他们无法将自己的工作集中在一个领域，而只能专注于生活中进展顺利的其他方面。
It doesn't compensate for them to think about the other aspects of their life, that is.
也就是说，思考生活的其他方面并不能弥补他们的不足。
So, is there a continuum of generative drives that exist in us?
那么，我们体内是否存在连续的生成驱动力呢？
Are these intrinsic?
这些是内在的吗？
I realize there are a near infinite number of conditions that could give rise to one or the other.
我意识到有几乎无数的条件可能会导致其中之一。
Could be hardwired, could be nature, could be nurture.
可能是天生的，可能是天生的，也可能是后天培养的。
But what is the relationship between, I want to say arousal or potential for arousal and aggressive drive and these things that we're seeking?
但是，我想说的是，唤醒或唤醒潜力和攻击性驱动力与我们正在寻求的这些东西之间有什么关系？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So if it's okay, I'd like to start at the first principles of the drives.
所以如果可以的话，我想从驱动器的首要原理开始。
So the theory of drives came about when people were observing very closely human beings and human behavior, individuals, societies, cultures.
因此，当人们非常密切地观察人类和人类行为、个人、社会、文化时，驱力理论就出现了。
And identifying that you can boil a lot of things down to a drive that we call aggressive.
并认识到你可以将很多事情归结为我们所说的积极进取的动力。
There's something to impose myself out there on the world around me.
有一些东西可以将我自己强加于我周围的世界。
It explains a lot of what people do.
它解释了人们所做的很多事情。
And then the other identified drive was pleasure.
然后另一个确定的驱动器是快乐。
So enjoyment, even relief of unpleasantness.
如此享受，甚至减轻不愉快。
You can describe a lot of human behavior and that to understand what's going on inside of us, that means that we're here.
你可以描述很多人类行为，并且了解我们内心正在发生的事情，这意味着我们就在这里。
You see that through the lens of aggressive and pleasure drives, and that's the answer to it, to how we survive.
你可以通过攻击性和快乐驱力的视角看到这一点，这就是它的答案，也是我们如何生存的答案。
But I think That is not the answer to it.
但我认为这不是问题的答案。
That if it were just aggressive drives and pleasure drives, there's not a value system around that.
如果只是激进的驾驶和愉悦的驾驶，那么就没有围绕它的价值体系。
Like, somebody who's very industrious can build or destroy.
就像，非常勤奋的人可以建造或摧毁。
And we see this in historical figures.
我们在历史人物中看到了这一点。
Like being very intelligent and very industrious, and this has nothing to do with whether you're building or destroying.
就像非常聪明和非常勤奋一样，这与你是在建设还是在破坏无关。
So if it were just an aggressive drive and a pleasure drive, then we wouldn't be having this conversation because the species would not have survived.
因此，如果这只是一种攻击性的驱动力和一种快乐的驱动力，那么我们就不会进行这样的对话，因为该物种将无法生存。
So if you believe that, and I believe that, then you look for something else.
所以如果你相信这一点，我也相信这一点，那么你就会寻找其他的东西。
You say, maybe we looked, and we found two things, and there are more things.
你说，也许我们看了，发现了两件事，还有更多的东西。
And then we start thinking about learning for learning's sake, altruism, things that are not explained unless there's a self-referential.
然后我们开始思考为了学习而学习、利他主义，以及除非有自我参照否则无法解释的事情。
Well, you feel good doing something for someone else, so therefore it's selfish.
嗯，为别人做某事你感觉很好，所以这是自私的。
There's a lot of gyrations around that.
围绕这一点有很多回转。
If you really observe humans, you do see altruism.
如果你真正观察人类，你确实会看到利他主义。
You see learning for learning's sake.
你会看到为了学习而学习。
You see people being benign when everything about a situation would say that they could, would, or should, under society's rules, not be benign.
当一种情况的一切都表明，根据社会规则，他们可以、将会或应该不友善时，你就会看到人们是友善的。
And then we start to see that there is another drive.
然后我们开始看到还有另一个驱动器。
That how do you explain that we're here?
那你怎么解释我们在这里？
Yeah, aggression, pleasure, and generativeness or generative drive, the drive to make things better.
是的，攻击性、快乐、创造力或生成动力，即让事情变得更好的动力。
That's why we build more than we destroy.
这就是为什么我们建造的比破坏的多。
We destroy a lot.
我们破坏了很多。
But we build more than we destroy, otherwise, we wouldn't have clothes on our backs, let alone have the technology to sit here and to be able to do this.
但我们建造的东西比破坏的东西多，否则我们就没有衣服穿，更不用说拥有坐在这里并能够做到这一点的技术了。
So it's the generative drive that is most realized in the healthy person.
因此，健康人最能实现的是生成内驱力。
And the healthy person has this strong generative drive.
健康的人有这种强大的生成动力。
Now, as you said, there are other factors, and this is sort of what you were asking about.
现在，正如您所说，还有其他因素，这就是您所问的问题。
There are natural levels of aggression or pleasure-seeking or generativeness that differ across people.
人与人之间的攻击性、享乐性或生成性的自然水平有所不同。
Because we're a product of the complexity of our genetics and all the complexities of nature and nurture.
因为我们是遗传复杂性以及先天和后天所有复杂性的产物。
So we're going to get to a place where some of us have more, some of us have less.
因此，我们将会到达这样一个境地：我们中的一些人拥有更多，而另一些人拥有的更少。
The conclusion, though, is for all of us, the generative drive being at the helm is what leads us to live good lives.
不过，结论是，对于我们所有人来说，掌舵的生成动力才是让我们过上美好生活的原因。
To live to the things that we aspire to, the peace and contentment.
过着我们所向往的生活，安宁与满足。
So we want the generative drive to rule the day.
所以我们希望生成驱动力主宰这一天。
Whether a person is studying neuroscience or growing gardens, the importance is about being generative.
无论一个人是在研究神经科学还是在种植花园，重要的是要有创造力。
Then aggression and pleasure can subserve the generative drive.
那么攻击性和快乐就可以促进生成动力。
And then the question you're asking, I think, which is, well, what if there's too much aggression, too little aggression?
我想，你问的问题是，如果侵略性太多或太少怎么办？
Or too much pleasure-seeking, too little pleasure-seeking?
还是追求享乐太多，追求享乐太少？
That's when we can see problems, and the problems then lead us back to the pillars to figure out the problems.
这时我们才能看到问题，然后问题会引导我们回到支柱来解决问题。
So too much aggression ultimately becomes envy.
所以太多的攻击最终会变成嫉妒。
Too much aggression means I want to impose myself on the world around me more than I can, more than is reasonable, more than I can do without impinging upon others.
太多的攻击性意味着我想要将自己强加于周围的世界，这超出了我的能力范围，超出了合理范围，超出了我在不影响他人的情况下所能做到的范围。
That what you end up doing is taking from others.
你最终所做的就是从别人那里获取。
Too much aggression becomes destructive.
太多的攻击性会变得具有破坏性。
Maybe a person destroys, tears something down, takes from others, says the nasty comment when it wasn't necessary, and now everyone feels bad.
也许一个人毁掉了一些东西，撕毁了一些东西，从别人那里夺走了一些东西，在没有必要的时候说了一些令人讨厌的评论，现在每个人都感觉很糟糕。
That too much aggression, it becomes envy, and envy is destructive.
太多的攻击性会变成嫉妒，而嫉妒具有破坏性。
The same thing with too much pleasure-seeking.
过度追求享乐也是如此。
If I say, okay, I want my fair share of pleasure and relief of distress and all that, but if I rely on that too much, where now instead of aggression eclipsing the generative drive, now it's pleasure eclipsing the generative drive.
如果我说，好吧，我想要公平分享快乐和减轻痛苦等等，但如果我过度依赖这一点，那么现在不是攻击性掩盖了生成性内驱力，而是快乐掩盖了生成性内驱力。
Then I want more pleasure and more pleasure and more pleasure, and how long before I want your pleasure, right?
然后我想要更多的快乐，更多的快乐，更多的快乐，多久之后我才想要你的快乐，对吧？
So then it's not healthy.
那么它是不健康的。
What it becomes is envious.
变成什么样子就令人羡慕了。
It becomes destructive because now then I become covetous of your pleasure, or if I can't get it, but I could bring you down, then I'll feel better about myself.
它变得具有破坏性，因为现在我变得贪图你的快乐，或者如果我不能得到它，但我可以让你失望，那么我会对自己感觉更好。
That's envy.
这就是羡慕啊
So too much aggression eclipsing the generative drive, too much of pleasure-seeking, of pleasure drive eclipsing the generative drive, and we end up in places of envy, and envy is destructive, and now we're in trouble.
太多的攻击性削弱了生成本能，太多的追求快乐，太多的快乐本能掩盖了生成本能，我们最终陷入了嫉妒的境地，而嫉妒具有破坏性，现在我们陷入了麻烦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've never thought before about the relationship between aggression, pleasure, and envy, but as you're describing it, comes to mind the movie "American Psycho" where Christian Bale plays this, well, basically an '80s yuppie working in finance in New York.
我以前从未考虑过攻击性、快乐和嫉妒之间的关系，但正如你所描述的那样，我想起了电影《美国精神病人》，克里斯蒂安·贝尔在其中扮演了一个基本上是 80 年代在纽约金融界工作的雅皮士。
And for anyone that's seen it, it can only be described as a violent parody of '80s yuppie culture, and it's meant to be-
对于任何看过它的人来说，它只能被描述为对 80 年代雅皮士文化的暴力模仿，而且它的目的是——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
As dark a comedy as there's going to be, right?
一部黑色喜剧，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It's as dark a comedy as it could be, and don't let your young children watch it because it's very gruesome and very sexual.
这是一部尽可能黑暗的喜剧，不要让你的小孩子看它，因为它非常可怕而且非常色情。
But the aggressive features within the character that Bale plays are immediately apparent in the movie.
但贝尔扮演的角色中的攻击性特征在电影中立即显现出来。
Like violent aggression, sexual aggression, seeking money, seeking wealth all the time.
就像暴力侵略、性侵略、追求金钱、一直追求财富。
A narcissism, too, an obsession with everything from his skincare routine to his eight-pack abs, and it's ridiculous.
还有一种自恋，一种对一切事物的痴迷，从他的护肤程序到他的八块腹肌，这很荒谬。
But also an interesting window into some milder forms of those features that still exist in many people today.
但这也是了解当今许多人仍然存在的一些较温和形式的特征的一个有趣的窗口。
But the envy component starts to reveal itself a little bit later into the movie, where the scene I recall is one around where someone hands him a business card, and then you hear the narrative in his own mind about how much nicer that guy's business card is than his-
但嫉妒的成分在电影后期开始显现出来，我记得的场景是有人递给他一张名片，然后你会听到他自己脑海中的叙述，说那个人的名片比他的好得多——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and how he hates him so much.
以及他是多么恨他。
He ends up killing the guy-
他最终杀了那个人——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in very violent and sadistic fashion.
以非常暴力和虐待狂的方式。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
That's aggression over generativeness, right?
这是对创造力的攻击，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
And the whole movie is about this one aspect of culture at that time.
整部电影就是在讲当时文化的这一方面。
Its ability to impose their will on everyone At their whim.
它能够随心所欲地将自己的意志强加给每个人。
Basically, Bale just does whatever the hell he wants at any point, goes returns videotapes in between.
基本上，贝尔在任何时候都可以做任何他想做的事，中间还放录像带。
And there's so much woven into it that is relevant and so much that's woven into it that's just purely for people's sick entertainment.
其中有太多相关内容，也有太多内容纯粹是为了人们病态的娱乐。
But I believe it was Brent Easton Ellis that wrote that.
但我相信这是布伦特·伊斯顿·埃利斯写的。
And it's tapping into the aggression component, the pleasure component, but the envy component is really what resonates as you come to the end of the movie, is there's no satisfying this guy.
它利用了攻击性成分、快乐成分，但当你看到电影结尾时，真正引起共鸣的是嫉妒成分，这家伙没有令人满意的地方。
He could kill or sleep with as many people as he wants in the movie, and he can have as much wealth as he wants.
在电影里他可以杀多少人、睡多少人，想要拥有多少财富就可以拥有多少。
He can have entire buildings.
他可以拥有整栋建筑。
In fact, I think he's living in an entire building at some point.
事实上，我认为他在某个时候住在整栋大楼里。
He takes over people's apartments after he kills them.
他杀死人们后接管了他们的公寓。
It's wild and disgusting.
这是狂野和恶心的。
But it really speaks to the extent to which envy is woven into-
但这确实说明了嫉妒的程度——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Absolutely
绝对
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
aggression and pleasure-seeking.
攻击性和追求享乐。
And it's not something that had really sunk in for me until you describe it now.
直到你现在描述它之前，我才真正理解它。
Because I think for most people, they imagine, okay, when somebody has X number of millions or billions of dollars, that they'll reach this place of peace, contentment, and delight.
因为我认为对于大多数人来说，他们想象，好吧，当某人拥有数百万或数十亿美元时，他们将到达这个平静、满足和快乐的地方。
They'll have enough.
他们会受够的。
And in the movie "Wall Street," there's that one scene where someone says, "What's your number?
在电影《华尔街》中，有一个场景，有人说：“你的电话号码是多少？
At what point is it enough?" And the guy says, "More." That says all sorts of things about the dopaminergic system of reward systems in the brain, et cetera.
到什么时候才够呢？”那家伙说：“更多。”这说明了大脑奖励系统多巴胺能系统的各种情况，等等。
But I think it says a lot more about envy.
但我认为这更多地说明了嫉妒。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And what a pit of despair envy is for everybody involved.
对于每个参与其中的人来说，这是一个多么绝望、嫉妒的深渊啊。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Look, envy may not be the root of all evil, but envy plus natural disasters may be.
看，嫉妒可能不是万恶之源，但嫉妒加上自然灾害可能是万恶之源。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
So much evil and destruction arises from envy, and it may be that it's at the root of all of it.
嫉妒产生了如此多的邪恶和破坏，这可能是这一切的根源。
And we so underappreciate that, right?
我们太低估了这一点，对吗？
We so underappreciate why people are destructive.
我们太低估了人们为何具有破坏性。
Which is why the roots aren't always in trauma, but a significant aspect of where envy arises from can often be trauma, creating a sense of guilt and shame and vulnerability.
这就是为什么根源并不总是源于创伤，但嫉妒产生的一个重要方面往往是创伤，产生内疚感、羞耻感和脆弱感。
But wherever a person may come by it, and it's a larger discussion of envy and where it may come from, is it drives destruction.
但无论一个人遇到什么，这是一个关于嫉妒及其来自何处的更广泛的讨论，它是否会导致破坏。
And if the aggressive drive is greater than the generative drive, or if the pleasure drive is greater than the generative drive, or if both are greater than the generative drive, it will drive destruction.
如果攻击性驱力大于生成性驱力，或者快乐性驱力大于生成性驱力，或者两者都大于生成性驱力，那么就会带来破坏。
And that destruction, the vast majority of times, if you look deep enough, you find at its roots envy.
而这种破坏，绝大多数时候，如果你观察得够深，你会发现其根源是嫉妒。
That envy may arise from guilt and shame within the person, but as soon as it becomes about another, I feel guilt and shame and inadequacy inside of me, but then I feel envy of those around me.
这种嫉妒可能源于一个人内心的内疚和羞耻，但一旦它变成了另一个人的嫉妒，我内心就会感到内疚、羞耻和不足，但随后我会对周围的人感到嫉妒。
It drives the vast majority of destruction.
它造成了绝大多数的破坏。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you think that's what's happening when we see these, sadly, ever more frequent examples of active shooters in school shootings, things of that sort?
当我们不幸地看到校园枪击事件中活跃的射手越来越频繁的例子时，你认为这就是正在发生的事情吗？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yes.
是的。
There are other people who have life, right?
还有其他人有生命，对吧？
And that person doesn't feel that they do, so they want to go and take it away from them.
而那个人并不觉得自己有，所以他们想把它从他们身上夺走。
That's why as long as we have human tribulation and a lot of guns, it's going to happen.
所以只要我们有人类的苦难，有很多的枪，它就会发生。
It's a logical conclusion of enough people being in places of despair and how envy can be cultivated within us, and then ultimately how it blinds people.
这是一个合乎逻辑的结论，有足够多的人处于绝望的境地，以及我们内心如何培养嫉妒心，以及最终它如何蒙蔽人们。
It creates such a desire for destruction that then people will take life away from others.
它产生了一种破坏的欲望，以至于人们会夺走他人的生命。
And often, people will sometimes take their own life, which I think really brings to the forefront that person doesn't feel that they have a life, certainly not a life worth preserving, so they're then going to take the lives of others.
通常，人们有时会结束自己的生命，我认为这确实让人们觉得自己没有生命，当然不值得保留，所以他们就会结束别人的生命。
And I think we're seeing that is as stark a portrait of where envy can lead, I think, as we can find on a one-person basis.
我认为，我们看到的这就是嫉妒可能导致的后果的鲜明写照，我认为，正如我们在一个人的基础上所看到的那样。
We can look at wars and their destruction on a societal basis, but I think that's the ultimate in understanding where envy can drive a person.
我们可以从社会的角度来看待战争及其造成的破坏，但我认为这是理解嫉妒如何驱使一个人的最终方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What about the other end of the spectrum when aggression and pleasure-seeking are too low?
当攻击性和享乐性太低时，光谱的另一端又如何呢？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
The other side of the spectrum is demoralization.
另一方面是士气低落。
So imagine very low aggression, so low self-assertion, low agency.
想象一下，攻击性很低，自我主张很低，能动性很低。
There comes a place where the person is not then imposing themselves or believing that they can in much of any way on the outside world.
到了某个阶段，人们就不再把自己强加于外界，也不相信自己可以以任何方式强加于外界。
And that creates a sense of isolation, understandably.
这是可以理解的，这会产生一种孤立感。
A sense of powerlessness and vulnerability and isolation, and that then becomes demoralizing, which is not the same as depression.
一种无力感、脆弱感和孤立感，然后变得士气低落，这与抑郁症不同。
We know depression is, there's a neurochemical imbalance.
我们知道抑郁症是神经化学失衡。
Whether that imbalance came purely biologically or came psychologically or because of external events, there's a neurochemical imbalance.
无论这种不平衡纯粹是出于生物学原因，还是心理原因或外部事件造成的，都存在神经化学失衡。
Here, we're not talking about an illness state as identified by modern psychiatry.
在这里，我们谈论的不是现代精神病学所确定的疾病状态。
There's not a number in the book of diagnoses that goes along with being demoralized.
诊断书中没有任何一个数字会伴随着士气低落。
But why?
但为什么？
Because it's a state that humans can be in, and too low of an aggressive drive and all the things that come of that, it's isolating and it's demoralizing.
因为这是人类可能处于的一种状态，而且攻击性太低，以及随之而来的所有事情，它会让人感到孤立和士气低落。
The same with too low of a pleasure drive.
驾驶乐趣太低也是如此。
So an example that may be relatable to some people is knowing someone who has had a couple of really bad breakups and then says, "You know what?
因此，一个可能与某些人相关的例子是，认识一个经历过几次非常糟糕的分手的人，然后说：“你知道吗？
I'm done with that.
我已经完成了。
There's no more romance.
没有更多的浪漫了。
I'm going to be single." And you know that person has a drive in them.
我要单身了。”你知道这个人有动力。
They're an interconnected person.
他们是一个相互联系的人。
They want romance, and these are things that are important to them, but they make a decision.
他们想要浪漫，这些对他们来说很重要，但他们会做出决定。
"I'm not going to have that in my life." What would be called in some psychodynamic sense is inviting death into life, a little bit of death by swearing off something that the person has a drive towards.
“我这辈子不会再有这样的事情了。”从某种心理动力学的意义上来说，这就是将死亡引入生命，通过发誓放弃某个人有动力去做的事情来实现一点点死亡。
The pleasure drive of companionship and of romance.
陪伴和浪漫的快乐驱动力。
That then becomes demoralizing as well.
这也会变得士气低落。
So sure, those things, demoralization can predispose To depression.
可以肯定的是，这些事情、士气低落会导致抑郁症。
But demoralization is a thing in and of itself, where then there's a sense of hopelessness.
但士气低落本身就是一种现象，人们会产生一种绝望感。
There's a sense of the goodness then isn't accessible anymore, and that's the other side of envy.
有一种美好的感觉再也无法获得，这就是嫉妒的另一面。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can low levels of aggression and the resulting demoralization be coupled with high levels of pleasure-seeking?
低水平的攻击性和由此产生的士气低落是否可以与高水平的享乐相结合？
So I'm thinking about the person that is very overweight, clearly headed for health issues if they don't already have them, and perhaps would like to remove that weight, would like to feel more vigorous, doesn't want type 2 diabetes and an early death, but at some level, they've given up because the pleasure of eating is something they really enjoy.
所以我想到的是那些超重的人，如果他们还没有健康问题的话，显然会出现健康问题，也许想减轻体重，想要感觉更有活力，不希望患上2型糖尿病和早逝，但在某种程度上，他们已经放弃了，因为饮食的乐趣是他们真正享受的东西。
They really love it, and yet it has a component to it in their life where they either self-soothe with it or they're just trying to hit baseline levels of satisfaction with it, and they allow themselves to effectively be sedentary.
他们真的很喜欢它，但它在他们的生活中占有重要地位，他们要么用它来自我安慰，要么只是试图达到对其满意的基线水平，并且他们允许自己有效地久坐。
And then the other sorts of troubles start to show up, sleep apnea from carrying excessive weight, and then they're feeling tired during the day, and then who can exercise when they're too tired when you've got to work and maintain other life demands?
然后其他类型的麻烦开始出现，体重过重导致睡眠呼吸暂停，然后他们白天感到疲倦，那么当你必须工作并满足其他生活需求时，谁可以在太累的时候锻炼身体呢？
And you can kind of see where this could arise and makes perfect sense.
你可以看出这可能会出现在哪里并且是完全有道理的。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can also see where if there were just a little bit more aggression, it could all be turned around, but they don't have it.
你还可以看到，如果再多一点侵略性，一切都可以扭转，但他们没有。
So is the scenario described something that you've seen clinically?
那么，所描述的场景是您在临床上见过的吗？
I certainly observe it in my non-clinical stance out there in the world a lot.
我当然以非临床立场在世界上经常观察到这一点。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Well, I think the most important thing you're pointing out is that aggression and pleasure on the high end, we know can trump the generative drive, right?
好吧，我认为你指出的最重要的事情是高端的攻击性和快乐，我们知道可以胜过生成驱动力，对吧？
But that this can also happen on the low end.
但这也可能发生在低端。
So you're describing a situation.
所以你描述的是一种情况。
This is a great example because it's not uncommon in the world around us.
这是一个很好的例子，因为它在我们周围的世界中并不罕见。
So the aggression, meaning the fuel to put oneself out there in the world.
因此，侵略性意味着将自己推向世界的燃料。
To utilize the sense of agency.
利用代理意识。
So this is going to be a person who's low agency.
所以这将是一个低能动性的人。
The aggressive drive has little fuel then to give the sense of agency.
激进的驱动力几乎没有什么动力来给人以代理感。
It's further squelched by negative sense of self and negative self-talk.
它被消极的自我意识和消极的自言自语进一步压制。
Now you find where the aggressive drive is too low, and too low can also trump the generative drive.
现在你会发现攻击性内驱力太低，而太低也会压倒生成性内驱力。
Because then that person can't take care of themselves.
因为那样的话那个人就无法照顾自己了。
A generative drive would say, "There's a lot of life to live, and there can be great things in life, and take better care of yourself.
生成内驱力会说：“人生还有很长的路要过，生活中可以有很多美好的事情，要更好地照顾自己。
And by the way, there are people that you love and people that love you, or if not, there's an animal or a garden you love." So the generative drive is saying that, but it's not winning the day because the aggression or, aggression is one word we could put to that drive.
顺便说一句，有你爱的人和爱你的人，或者如果没有，也有你爱的动物或花园。”因此，生成内驱力是这么说的，但它并没有赢得胜利，因为我们可以用“侵略”或“侵略”这个词来形容这种内驱力。
You could call it an assertion drive.
您可以将其称为断言驱动器。
We call it an agency drive, but we're using agency in a different way, but that thing is too low.
我们称之为代理驱动，但我们以不同的方式使用代理，但那东西太低了。
So it wins out over the generative drive, and then in the example you gave, it's not surprising that the pleasure drive goes the other way.
所以它战胜了生成内驱力，然后在你给出的例子中，快乐内驱力走向相反的方向也就不足为奇了。
Maybe there's a predisposition to that genetically.
也许在遗传上有这种倾向。
Maybe it's just reinforced because a person in that place could say, well, think of what the self-conception would be.
也许它只是被强化了，因为那个地方的人可能会说，好吧，想想自我概念是什么。
I'm in this terrible place.
我在这个可怕的地方。
It means I'm a terrible person.
这意味着我是一个可怕的人。
I can't make myself better, or I'm not good enough to get better.
我无法让自己变得更好，或者我还不够好，无法变得更好。
No one cares about me.
没有人关心我。
I can't make anything right.
我什么也做不了。
So therefore, I don't matter.
所以，所以，我无所谓。
There's no reason to take care of myself, so why would I not do, if I eat that one thing that I enjoy and it gives me pleasure, even if it gives me pleasure for two minutes, then I'll eat another one.
没有理由照顾自己，所以我为什么不这样做，如果我吃一件我喜欢的东西并且它给我带来快乐，即使它给我带来两分钟的快乐，那么我会吃另一件事。
In a sense, so what?
从某种意义上说，那又怎样？
Well, because I don't feel that I'm worth preserving or that I can preserve myself.
嗯，因为我觉得我不值得保护，或者我可以保护自己。
There's a nihilism to it that then kind of makes it make sense to overindulge the pleasure drive, whether it's biologically predisposed or one is just arriving there.
其中有一种虚无主义，这种虚无主义使得过度放纵快乐冲动变得有意义，无论它是生物学上的倾向还是刚刚到达那里。
But the reason all that is bad is because the aggressive drive is too low, and in fact, it's low enough that it's outweighing the generative drive.
但所有这些不好的原因是攻击性内驱力太低，事实上，它低得足以超过生成性内驱力。
Then the pleasure drive is going to come into one place or another.
然后，快乐的驾驶就会来到一个地方或另一个地方。
If it's also really low, the person does not much of anything and wastes away, which tragically happens a lot in our society, right?
如果它也非常低，那么这个人什么都不做，就开始消瘦，这种悲惨的情况在我们的社会中经常发生，对吗？
Or if the pleasure drive is high, maybe that person overindulges in things that provide short-term gratification, and then that causes a different set of problems.
或者，如果快乐驱动力很高，那么这个人可能会过度沉迷于提供短期满足的事物，然后导致一系列不同的问题。
But what's deterministic there is whether aggression or assertion, again, we could put different words to that drive, but what we've been calling the aggressive drive and the pleasure drive, is one or the other or both high enough to trump the generative drive or low enough to trump the generative drive?
但决定性的问题是，攻击性还是主张性，我们可以用不同的词来形容这种驱力，但我们所说的攻击性驱力和快乐驱力，是其中之一或另一个或两者都足够高以战胜生成内驱力，还是足够低以战胜生成内驱力？
And I think all problems that we see, everything fits into this model because it honors what we know.
我认为我们看到的所有问题、一切都适合这个模型，因为它尊重我们所知道的。
It honors what we know about human behavior and insights into human behavior over hundreds of years.
它尊重我们数百年来对人类行为的了解和对人类行为的洞察。
Over thousands of years, the wisdom that Reid brings forward, and it honors the science, and that's why it fits together because I think it honors who we are as what our species is, what we are, and what it's like, what life is like as we try and engage with it.
几千年来，里德提出的智慧，它尊重科学，这就是为什么它融合在一起，因为我认为它尊重我们是谁，因为我们的物种是什么，我们是什么，它是什么样的，当我们尝试参与它时，生活是什么样子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I've seen cases of demoralized people where they simply disappear.
我见过一些士气低落的人，然后他们就消失了。
They hide, they isolate, they slow down, they take terrible care of their health, and sadly, I've known several people like this in my lifetime.
他们躲藏起来，他们孤立，他们放慢脚步，他们非常关心自己的健康，可悲的是，我一生中认识几个这样的人。
One of whom killed himself, the other who just has an immense number of health problems related to overeating and inactivity, and knows it and talks about it, but nothing seems to change despite multiple interventions from a caring standpoint from friends, et cetera.
其中一个人自杀了，另一个人只是有大量与暴饮暴食和缺乏活动有关的健康问题，他知道这一点并谈论它，但尽管朋友等从关怀的角度进行了多次干预，但似乎没有任何改变。
I've also seen examples of people who are demoralized who seem to band with other demoralized people, sort of try to recalibrate the standard that they feel-
我还看到过一些士气低落的人似乎与其他士气低落的人团结在一起的例子，试图重新调整他们认为的标准——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
oppresses them.
压迫他们。
And this isn't necessarily just in the realm of physical fitness.
这不一定只是在身体健康领域。
This is also in the realm of school demands.
这也是学校要求的范围。
I went to a very demanding high school As I've talked about before on a couple of podcasts, I barely finished high school.
我去了一所要求很高的高中，正如我之前在几个播客上谈到的那样，我勉强完成了高中学业。
I was not an attentive student.
我不是一个专心的学生。
My aggressive and pleasure drives went into non-academic endeavors, and I regret that.
我的积极进取和快乐的动力投入到了非学术的努力中，我对此感到遗憾。
I had so much making up of learning to do by the time I fortunately got to college.
幸运的是，当我进入大学时，我有很多学习要做。
Eventually caught up.
最终追上了。
But my experience of high school was that there were these kids scoring perfectly on the SAT and early admission to Harvard and early admission to Yale and all these places, and then there was a distribution in the middle, and then there was a collection of kids who were not doing well, knew they weren't doing well, and kind of banded together around the idea of not doing well.
但我在高中的经历是，有些孩子在 SAT 考试中取得了完美的成绩，并且提前进入哈佛、提前进入耶鲁大学以及所有这些地方，然后在中间有一个分布，然后有一群孩子表现不好，知道自己表现不好，并且围绕着表现不好的想法聚集在一起。
I didn't consider myself part of that group because I frankly wasn't there that often and I was focused on other things, as I mentioned.
我不认为自己是那个群体的一部分，因为坦率地说，我不经常去那里，而且我专注于其他事情，正如我提到的。
But what came of that group was actually quite tragic, not just for them, but for a lot of other people.
但那群人的遭遇实际上是相当悲惨的，不仅对他们来说，而且对很多其他人来说也是如此。
They eventually engaged in, it wasn't a school shooting type scenario, but they eventually set off explosives on the school campus.
他们最终参与了，这不是校园枪击类型的场景，但他们最终在学校校园引爆了爆炸物。
This was after they had graduated.
这是他们毕业后的事了。
I don't know where they are nowadays, but things did not go well for them, and they exerted a lot of destruction to other people around them.
我不知道他们现在在哪里，但他们的日子并不好过，而且还给周围的人带来了很大的破坏。
But before they did that, there was this kind of banding together around the fact that they didn't fit in.
但在他们这样做之前，由于彼此不融洽而团结在一起。
And they weren't bullied, as I recall.
我记得他们没有被欺负。
I could be wrong about this.
我可能是错的。
But I've seen this in other forms too.
但我也以其他形式看到过这种情况。
If you can't meet the standard, band up with other people and change the standard, and then you don't feel as demoralized, perhaps.
如果你达不到标准，与其他人联合起来改变标准，也许你就不会感到士气低落。
I can understand, I can rationalize why this would be a reasonable approach.
我可以理解，我可以合理解释为什么这是一个合理的方法。
But I'm seeing this more and more.
但我越来越多地看到这种情况。
I'm also seeing, by the way, the other end of the spectrum.
顺便说一句，我也看到了光谱的另一端。
People are overly aggressive and pleasure-seeking and things of that sort.
人们过于咄咄逼人、追求享乐之类的事情。
But for the moment, I'd like your thoughts on how demoralization can split off into different expressions depending on how people feel and who else they're relating to.
但目前，我想听听您对士气低落如何根据人们的感受以及他们与谁有联系而分为不同的表达方式的看法。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, I think the place I would start is to say our society rushes headlong forward in a way that causes our society to trample people who are vulnerable, and vulnerable people are demoralized people, or demoralized people are vulnerable people, and our society often tramples them, and then they're not here with us any longer, and that is tragic.
好吧，我想我首先要说的是，我们的社会一头扎进，导致我们的社会践踏弱势群体，而弱势群体就是士气低落的人，或者士气低落的人就是弱势群体，我们的社会经常践踏他们，然后他们就不再和我们在一起了，这是悲剧。
But at times, they don't get trampled.
但有时，他们不会被践踏。
They get cast aside.
他们被抛弃了。
They're injured and cast aside, and from that place, tragic things happen.
他们受伤并被抛弃，从那里开始，悲惨的事情发生了。
People then stay isolated.
然后人们就会保持孤立。
I think it's a tragedy that we don't all band together and go door to door to seek people who aren't coming out of doors.
我认为我们没有团结起来挨家挨户地寻找那些不走出家门的人，这是一个悲剧。
In the sense of we let people be so isolated, and oftentimes, that's the tragic end of someone's story.
从某种意义上说，我们让人们如此孤立，而这往往是某人故事的悲惨结局。
But sometimes people do engage.
但有时人们确实参与其中。
They're demoralized, but they can engage in ways that involve an affiliative defense.
他们士气低落，但他们可以采取涉及附属防御的方式。
So sometimes people who are demoralized can affiliate.
所以有时候士气低落的人可以加入。
They can band together in ways, as I think you were alluding to, that can make things better.
正如我认为你所暗示的那样，他们可以以某种方式联合起来，这可以让事情变得更好。
So if people are demoralized because, say, they're a group in society that is chronically very mistreated, then it can be very powerful to band together, both because there's what's called an affiliative defense, that if I feel bad about myself about something and I'm alone, it's highly likely I'm going to continue feeling bad about myself about that thing.
因此，如果人们士气低落，因为，比如说，他们是社会上长期受到严重虐待的一个群体，那么团结起来可能会非常强大，因为存在所谓的亲和防御，如果我对某件事感觉不好，而我又孤独，那么我很可能会继续对那件事感觉不好。
But if you feel bad about yourself about the same thing, and then we're together, we help each other feel better.
但如果你因为同一件事而对自己感觉不好，那么我们在一起，我们会帮助彼此感觉好一些。
We don't feel so alone.
我们并不感到那么孤独。
We don't feel so isolated.
我们并不感到那么孤立。
We don't feel so ashamed.
我们并不感到羞耻。
So an affiliative defense can help people to say, "Wait a second.
因此，附属防御可以帮助人们说：“等一下。
There's nothing wrong with me, and I'm not going to take this lying down," or something, and to make assertions that create better rights in the world around us.
我没有任何问题，我不会对此置之不理，”或做出什么主张，为我们周围的世界创造更好的权利。
So very good things can happen from affiliation in the context of demoralization.
因此，在士气低落的情况下，归属感可能会带来非常好的事情。
But very bad things can happen, too, because people can also affiliate around things that are very destructive.
但非常糟糕的事情也可能发生，因为人们也可能会加入那些极具破坏性的事情。
If I am hateful of society and I would like to be destructive and I'm alone, okay, I could do destructive things alone, but if I band together with a couple other people who feel that way, now I'm empowered to feel that way.
如果我憎恨社会，我想要具有破坏性，而我独自一人，好吧，我可以独自做破坏性的事情，但如果我与其他几个有这种感觉的人联合起来，现在我就有能力有这种感觉。
Instead of maybe I feel that way, or there's racism or prejudice, and I don't feel like I can say that.
相反，也许我有这种感觉，或者存在种族主义或偏见，我觉得我不能这么说。
But then when it's permissive because other people are in the same place, then people can accentuate the hatred within them.
但当因为其他人在同一个地方而被允许时，人们就会加剧他们内心的仇恨。
So affiliation is very, very powerful, and part of society rushing so headlong forward and either trampling or marginalizing people is that we then don't pay attention, or not enough attention to what happens with the affiliative groups.
因此，归属感是非常非常强大的，而社会的一部分如此急躁地向前推进，要么践踏或边缘化人们，要么是我们不关注，或者没有足够的关注发生在归属群体身上的事情。
How do you guide people towards being able to affiliate in ways that are productive?
您如何引导人们以富有成效的方式建立联系？
How do you give them routes of being productive?
您如何为他们提供提高生产力的途径？
How do you try and protect against the ways that affiliation can lead to destructive behavior?
您如何尝试防止隶属关系导致破坏性行为？
So I think these are the natural things that happen within us, but a lot of what we're talking about now gets impacted a lot by society and societal standards, which we, of course, altogether determine and arise from us, but they start to sort of transcend because it's now people interacting with a whole social system.
所以我认为这些是我们内心发生的自然事情，但是我们现在谈论的很多事情都受到社会和社会标准的很大影响，当然，这些都是我们完全决定和产生的，但它们开始有点超越，因为现在人们与整个社会系统互动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Going back to the other end of the spectrum, excess aggression, in particular.
回到光谱的另一端，尤其是过度攻击性。
I was in a conversation with somebody recently who's very successful, beyond most people's comprehension of successful, financially successful, and seems to just have checked off their goals one box at a time from go.
最近我和一个人交谈过，他非常成功，超出了大多数人对成功、经济上成功的理解，而且似乎从一开始就一次一个地核对了他们的目标。
But who described his underlying psychology and emotional state as one in which much of what he does on a day-to-day basis is driven by aggression.
但谁将他的潜在心理和情绪状态描述为一种他日常所做的大部分事情都是由攻击性驱动的。
In fact, he-
事实上，他——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
volunteered an anecdote about the fact that he hates early morning meetings on Zoom, but he shows up to them as sort of like an F-you towards somebody that might not even be on the meeting.
他主动讲述了一个轶事，说他讨厌在 Zoom 上开早会，但他在他们面前的表现有点像对一个甚至可能没有参加会议的人说 F-you。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so there's a friction point for him that allows him to engage in a way that he wouldn't otherwise be able to engage, and he channels that towards productivity, and clearly, it's worked for him.
因此，对他来说存在一个摩擦点，使他能够以一种他原本无法参与的方式参与，并且他将其引导到生产力，显然，这对他有用。
I don't know if he's done the sort of introspective deep dive, I imagine no, through the structure of self and function of self.
我不知道他是否通过自我的结构和自我的功能进行了那种内省的深入研究，我想没有。
But what are we to make of that sort of example?
但我们该如何看待这种例子呢？
I like the idea that if someone has a strong, aggressive drive, that they would channel it toward good.
我喜欢这样的想法：如果一个人有强烈、进取的动力，他们就会将其引导向善。
I have no reason to think this person is doing anything but good in the world for themselves and others.
我没有理由认为这个人在世界上除了为自己和他人做好事之外，没有做任何事情。
They're certainly not harming anyone, at least not to my knowledge.
他们当然不会伤害任何人，至少据我所知。
But that seems like a rough place to live.
但这似乎是一个居住条件艰苦的地方。
For me, it seems like a rough place to live.
对我来说，这似乎是一个居住条件艰苦的地方。
And at the same time, I'll offer a very brief anecdote that at one point in my career, namely when I was a postdoc, I was in a position by virtue of having left a laboratory and the nature of the field at the time where the work I wanted to do was directly pitted against the work of another very powerful laboratory, except that I was a lone postdoc working in a laboratory, essentially on my own on this problem, and I remember going to my postdoc advisor, the late Ben Barris, and saying, "I think I might just move to a different problem, because I don't really want to go up against this Goliath." And he said, this is the best I can capture Ben's voice, he said, "Absolutely not.
同时，我将提供一个非常简短的轶事，在我职业生涯的某个时刻，即当我还是一名博士后时，我所处的位置是由于离开了实验室和当时该领域的性质，我想做的工作直接与另一个非常强大的实验室的工作进行了竞争，除了我是一个孤独的博士后在实验室工作，基本上是我自己在这个问题上，我记得去找我的博士后顾问，已故的本巴里斯，并说，“我我想我可能会转向另一个问题，因为我真的不想对抗这个歌利亚。”他说，这是我能捕捉到的最好的本的声音，他说，“绝对不是。
There's no way.
没办法啊
You love this stuff.
你喜欢这个东西。
You have to do it because you love it." And he kept telling me how much I love it, and he reminded me that indeed, I did love the questions.
你必须这样做，因为你喜欢它。”他一直告诉我我有多喜欢它，他提醒我，事实上，我确实喜欢这些问题。
And once I was able to tap back into the love for and the curiosity around the questions, I was able to push aside the concerns enough that we did well in publishing certain papers.
一旦我能够重新唤起对这些问题的热爱和好奇心，我就能够充分抛开担忧，以至于我们在发表某些论文方面做得很好。
They did well.
他们做得很好。
But those five years, frankly, were a lot less pleasureful than they could've been, I think, because much of the script in my head was that I was in friction with this, at least in my mind, this oppressive force.
但坦率地说，我认为这五年远没有想象中那么愉快，因为我脑子里的大部分剧本都是我与这种压迫力发生摩擦，至少在我的脑海里是这样。
It was purely competitive, and I truly believe that we can't be in our most creative state when we are competing with someone else, by definition, because then you're creating against a standard as opposed to raw creation.
这纯粹是竞争性的，我坚信，根据定义，当我们与其他人竞争时，我们无法处于最具创造力的状态，因为那样你就是在根据标准而不是原始创作进行创作。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, in both cases, a lot of aggressive drive.
因此，在这两种情况下，都需要大量的攻击性驱动力。
Frankly, I have some of that, and I had that.
坦白说，我有一些，而且我也有。
But a desire for revenge, a component of friction mixed in or integrated with this aggressive drive.
但复仇的欲望是与这种侵略性动力混合或整合在一起的摩擦的一个组成部分。
This picture, even as I describe it, is causing the release of a little bit of adrenaline.
这张照片，正如我所描述的，正在引起一点点肾上腺素的释放。
It's not a comfortable state.
这不是一个舒服的状态。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
It can't be a state of happiness, right?
这不可能是一种幸福的状态吧？
So as you said, people can do good in the world, they can do not good in the world.
所以正如你所说，人们可以在世界上行善，也可以在世界上行恶。
We're not making a value judgment about what the person is doing, because that's not what the question is about.
我们不会对这个人正在做的事情做出价值判断，因为这不是问题所在。
How are they feeling?
他们感觉如何？
How are they doing?
他们怎么样？
What's going on inside of them?
他们内心发生了什么？
And that can't be happy.
那不可能是快乐的。
That can't be happy, because if you're built to be pretty good at competition, so you can size up what are the factors, you can strategize.
这并不令人高兴，因为如果你生来就非常擅长竞争，那么你就可以评估因素，你就可以制定策略。
So if a person is built to be really good at competition, then it sounds pretty good to make everything a competition, because you have the highest winning percentage, right?
所以，如果一个人生来就非常擅长竞争，那么把一切都变成竞争听起来不错，因为你的胜率最高，对吧？
But that's good to achieve some end that doesn't have any feeling intrinsically associated with it.
但这对于实现某种与它没有任何内在联系的目标来说是件好事。
And if all you're doing is a series of competitions, then what you're doing then is winning.
如果你所做的只是一系列的比赛，那么你所做的就是获胜。
And winning is something.
获胜是很重要的事情。
Winning is like, "I won, I beat you." Whatever that is, that can be part of happiness, but it doesn't have to be, right?
胜利就像是“我赢了，我打败了你”。不管那是什么，它可以是幸福的一部分，但不一定是，对吧？
That's not happiness.
那不是幸福。
So, yes, that kind of, I'm really built to compete well, and I'm going to just see a series of competitions in front of me.
所以，是的，在某种程度上，我真的很适合竞争，而且我将看到我面前的一系列比赛。
That's for expedient forward progress.
这是为了方便的前进。
That's very effective.
这非常有效。
But again, expedient forward progress is nothing to do with peace, contentment, delight.
但同样，权宜之计的进步与和平、满足、快乐无关。
It doesn't have anything to do with that, nor does it have anything to do with doing good or bad.
与此无关，也与行善或行恶无关。
And I think the example you gave in your own career is such a good example.
我认为你在自己的职业生涯中举的例子就是一个很好的例子。
Because if you think about it, when the way that you were sort of framing it inside is like there's a question I'm asking, there's a question they're asking.
因为如果你想一想，当你在内部构建它的方式就像我在问一个问题时，他们也在问一个问题。
And there's a competition.
还有一场比赛。
And again, it has to be two to compete.
再说一次，必须是两个人才能竞争。
So there's almost an automaticity.
所以几乎是自动的。
That you're studying the same thing, maybe they feel competitive or certain people there, too.
你正在研究同样的事情，也许他们或那里的某些人也感到有竞争力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They were and are definitely competitive.
他们曾经并且现在绝对具有竞争力。
They know who they are.
他们知道自己是谁。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're extremely competitive and very successful.
他们非常有竞争力并且非常成功。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Okay, so then you're like, "Okay, I'm in a competition." Now, again, but you never decided to be in a competition.
好吧，那么你就会说，“好吧，我正在参加比赛。”现在，再说一遍，但你从未决定参加比赛。
But automatically, it's an interesting way to understand.
但自然而然，这是一种有趣的理解方式。
You're acting as if you're in a competition.
你的表现就好像你正在参加一场比赛。
You goes, "I don't want this competition." Because they're bigger than me, it's going to be unpleasant, it's going to take you away from really thinking about what you want to do.
你会说：“我不想参加这场比赛。”因为他们比我大，这会很不愉快，会让你无法真正思考自己想做什么。
It's going to make it harder to do the job you want to do, because now you're embroiled in something that has aggression behind it.
这会让你更难做你想做的工作，因为现在你卷入了一些背后有攻击性的事情。
So you choose, "No, I choose not to do that." And then Ben Barris reframes it to the truth and says, "This is not a competition because you're not choosing to compete." Because Ben pointed out what was important to you was the questions.
所以你选择，“不，我选择不这样做。”然后本·巴里斯将其重新诠释为事实，并说道：“这不是一场竞争，因为你没有选择竞争。”因为本指出对你来说重要的是问题。
So it's almost as if Ben reminded you, "No, no, no, this is not through the aggressive drive.
所以这就好像本在提醒你，“不，不，不，这不是通过积极的驱动力。
Look at it through the generative drive.
通过生成驱动力来看待它。
That's what wins out in you." And then You go and apply yourself to it.
这就是你获胜的原因。”然后你就去全身心投入其中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And bless him for doing it, because from that point forward, I've made it my firm mission to always do things from a place of what I always think about as delight.
并祝福他这样做，因为从那时起，我就将始终从我一直认为快乐的地方做事作为我坚定的使命。
Curiosity, delight, the things that give me energy and that give me more energy from doing them.
好奇心、快乐，这些能给我能量并让我通过做这些事情获得更多能量的事情。
It wasn't a coincidence, I believe, that in those five years when I was operating from a mix of generative drive, and the competition would then resurface and I couldn't hold it constant, that I was absolutely exhausted by the end of that phase.
我相信，这不是巧合，在我以生成驱动力混合运作的五年里，竞争会重新出现，我无法保持不变，在那个阶段结束时我绝对筋疲力尽。
In a way, that sucked a lot of the pleasure out of it.
在某种程度上，这剥夺了很多乐趣。
I still derived some pleasure, but then, as I mentioned, fortunately, I was able to pivot back to doing things out of love and getting back to peace, contentment, and especially delight.
我仍然获得了一些快乐，但正如我所提到的，幸运的是，我能够重新回到出于爱做事，回到平静、满足，尤其是快乐。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
And I absolutely make a value judgment about that.
我对此绝对做出了价值判断。
That what you did is better.
那你做的更好。
So what if you were different?
如果你与众不同又怎样？
So think about it.
所以想一想。
If we talk about it through this accurate lens, what if you were different at that time and the aggressive drive in you was greater than the generative drive in you?
如果我们通过这个准确的镜头来谈论它，如果你当时与众不同并且你的侵略性驱动力大于你的生成性驱动力怎么办？
Which would be an unhealthy state to be in.
这将是一种不健康的状态。
But let's say you were in that unhealthy state, then you probably would've still done what you did, but you would've done it through the lens of aggression.
但假设你处于那种不健康的状态，那么你可能仍然会做你所做的事情，但你会通过侵略的视角来做这件事。
Like, "I'm going to get them." Now you're competitive with them.
就像，“我要去拿它们。”现在你可以和他们竞争了。
There's anger in you.
你心里有愤怒。
There's aggression that you're enacting in fantasy as you're thinking about them and how you're going to win, and all sorts of things go on inside of us.
当你思考他们以及你将如何获胜时，你会在幻想中表现出攻击性，并且我们内心会发生各种各样的事情。
And I would say there's no way on Earth you could have done the science as well as you did.
我想说，在地球上你不可能把科学研究做得这么好。
It couldn't be, because all that stuff is distracting.
不可能，因为所有这些东西都会让人分心。
That kind of negative affect pulls for energy and time from you.
这种负面影响会消耗你的精力和时间。
And also what seeds would you have planted in the microcosm that you operate in?
您会在您经营的微观世界中种下什么种子？
More competition.
更多竞争。
More competitiveness.
更具竞争力。
More badness.
更多的坏事。
So let's look at what you did do.
那么让我们看看你做了什么。
Because you're healthy, or this particular question about this particular thing, we know for sure because your generative drive eclipses the aggressive drive, then you set yourself to the work in a way that's going to be more effective.
因为你很健康，或者关于这个特定事情的这个特定问题，我们可以肯定地知道，因为你的生成驱动力掩盖了进取驱动力，然后你以一种更有效的方式让自己投入工作。
Your brain isn't clouded.
你的大脑没有被蒙蔽。
You're not wasting energy plotting some revenge or plotting what you're going to do if they come take something from your lab.
你不会浪费精力策划报复，也不会策划如果他们从你的实验室拿走东西你要做什么。
Whatever it is, you're not living in any of that, so you're going to do a better job at what's so important to you to do.
不管是什么，你都不会生活在其中，所以你会在对你来说如此重要的事情上做得更好。
And what seeds are you sowing then?
那你播下什么种子呢？
You're sowing seeds of collaboration.
您正在播撒合作的种子。
And even then, if someone could say, "Well, what does even that matter?" I'd say, "No, it does matter because what you're doing then, we just follow forward the math of it, is contributing to understanding, that's contributing to human health." And the better understanding we have of human health, the more people stay alive and the more people stay healthy, which could mean any one of us.
即便如此，如果有人能说：“好吧，那又有什么关系呢？”我会说，“不，这确实很重要，因为你所做的事情，我们只是遵循它的数学原理，有助于理解，这有助于人类健康。”我们对人类健康了解得越多，就越有更多的人活下来，越多的人保持健康，这可能意味着我们中的任何一个人。
Just like any one of us could be the vulnerable person that society tramples or casts aside.
就像我们中的任何一个人都可能成为被社会践踏或抛弃的弱势群体一样。
We all have it in us to be that or have been that at stages of our lives.
我们每个人都有这样的能力，或者在我们生命的各个阶段曾经是这样的人。
We also all have it in us to be the opposite of that.
我们也都有与此相反的倾向。
We have it in us to be generative.
我们有创造力。
We have it in us to make good.
我们有能力去做好事。
We have it in us to contribute to health, to survival, and that I place a value judgment upon.
我们拥有为健康、生存做出贡献的能力，我对此做出了价值判断。
It's why doing good is better than doing bad, why creating is better than destroying, and why ultimately it's the generative drive that has to trump the other drives.
这就是为什么做好事比做坏事更好，为什么创造比破坏更好，以及为什么最终是生成驱动力必须胜过其他驱动力。
And when it does, we're happy, we're healthy, we make the world a better place.
当它发生时，我们会感到快乐，我们会健康，我们会让世界变得更美好。
We ally with and are suffused with the gratitude and agency in us are fully active, and we're suffused with peace, contentment, delight.
我们充满感激之情，我们内心充满活力，我们充满平安、满足、喜悦。
As you said, that's the place to be.
正如你所说，那就是该去的地方。
From that place, we get this thing that we want, and we help to make the world a better place, which helps us to keep the thing we want.
从那个地方，我们得到了我们想要的东西，我们帮助让世界变得更美好，这有助于我们保留我们想要的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It sounds so simple because, as you pointed out, the manifestations of looking at the right things and doing the right things are so simple.
这听起来很简单，因为正如您所指出的，看正确的事情和做正确的事情的表现是如此简单。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a list, really.
这确实是一个清单。
And again, we have a PDF that includes this list and the structure of the pillars and how they flow up to this list.
同样，我们有一个 PDF，其中包含此列表和支柱的结构以及它们如何流动到此列表。
But ultimately, it's peace, contentment, and delight undergirded by agency and gratitude as active terms.
但归根结底，它是和平、满足和喜悦，并以能动性和感激之情作为积极的术语。
Very simple at some level.
在某种程度上非常简单。
And yet for many people, including myself at certain times in life, the excess or lack of aggressive drive or excess or lack of pleasure drive can interfere with people's ability to access these simple but incredibly powerful being states.
然而，对于许多人来说，包括我自己，在生命中的某些时刻，过度或缺乏攻击性驱力或过度或缺乏快乐驱力可能会干扰人们进入这些简单但极其强大的存在状态的能力。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Because it's nature and nurture.
因为这是先天和后天培养的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
So you might be built with a greater or lesser natural amount of one drive than I am.
因此，您的自然驱动器数量可能比我多或少。
But then we've had life experience that creates a delta around that.
但后来我们的生活经历围绕着它创造了一个三角洲。
So you say, "Okay, we're built with different amounts of all these drives." Yes, we are, but we also have control through our decisions, through how we handle our lives, to modulate them.
所以你说，“好吧，我们是用不同数量的所有这些驱动器构建的。”是的，我们是，但我们也可以通过我们的决定、通过我们如何处理我们的生活来控制并调节它们。
So that makes sense, because the thought could be, well, the drive is what the drive is, and it varies across people.
所以这是有道理的，因为这种想法可能是，驱动力就是驱动力，而且它因人而异。
No, there's a range the drive is in, and that range can be very broad.
不，驱动器有一个范围，而且这个范围可能非常宽。
People can do all sorts of things to cultivate the better.
人们可以做各种各样的事情来修得更好。
We all can.
我们都可以。
So if we look at it as an unlimited upside, then what we see is I want to know where are they at in me now?
因此，如果我们将其视为无限的好处，那么我们看到的是我想知道它们现在在我身上的位置？
What's going on inside of me?
我内心发生了什么？
What are all those other factors?
还有哪些其他因素？
Because I want to cultivate the good.
因为我要培养善行。
I want to cultivate that generative drive, and I want to make sure the aggression and the pleasure aren't out of balance one way or another.
我想培养那种生成动力，我想确保攻击性和快乐不会以某种方式失去平衡。
We can actively look at that and manage it, and I think that's so what we're striving for, because there's nothing here that we don't have some control over.
我们可以积极地关注并管理它，我认为这就是我们正在努力的目标，因为这里没有什么是我们无法控制的。
And the higher we get up, the simpler it gets, the more we have control over it
我们站得越高，事情就越简单，我们对它的控制力就越强
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And for people who feel like the ideals that we're providing a roadmap toward are not accessible, for whatever reason, maybe they're feeling a little bit or a lot demoralized, overly aggressive and not ending up where they want to go, or ending up where they want to go and not experiencing deep satisfaction, peace, contentment, and delight.
对于那些觉得我们提供的路线图实现的理想无法实现的人，无论出于何种原因，他们可能会感到有点或非常沮丧，过于激进，最终没有到达他们想要去的地方，或者最终到达他们想要去的地方，但没有体验到深刻的满足、平和、满足和快乐。
Where should they look in this framework that includes these pillars at the deep levels of structure of self, function of self, that give rise to empowerment, humility, agency, gratitude, peace, contentment, delight?
在这个框架中，他们应该把目光放在哪里，这个框架包括自我结构、自我功能深层的支柱，这些支柱会产生赋权、谦逊、能动性、感恩、平和、满足、快乐？
If someone should find themselves unmotivated or stuck, metaphorically speaking, staring out the window into the garden that could be and that they want so very much, but that they're not creating.
如果有人发现自己没有动力或陷入困境，打个比方来说，盯着窗外的花园，他们可能非常想要，但他们没有创造。
And again, that should translate to whatever domain of life you're seeking, or not even in touch with what you really want.
再说一次，这应该转化为你正在寻求的生活的任何领域，或者甚至与你真正想要的东西无关。
Infinitely confused about what to do in relationship, school, work, life.
对于在人际关系、学业、工作、生活中该做什么感到无限困惑。
And thinking about all the oppressive forces in the world, like the political chasm and the pandemics and lockdowns and all the stuff and all the things that are weighing down on us.
想想世界上所有的压迫力量，比如政治分歧、流行病、封锁以及所有压在我们身上的事情。
So what should that person, in other words, what should we all do at that moment?
那么那个人应该做什么，换句话说，我们所有人在那一刻应该做什么？
Stop and what?
停下来然后做什么？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Each pillar has five cupboards.
每根柱子有五个柜子。
Look in all five and follow the clues that you find there.
查看所有五个并遵循您在那里找到的线索。
That's the answer.
这就是答案。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So go back to structure of self, function of self, ask questions about and engage in practices that bring about more self-awareness.
因此，回到自我的结构、自我的功能，提出问题并参与能够带来更多自我意识的实践。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Practices that draw our attention to what's salient for us.
让我们注意对我们来说最重要的事情的做法。
Ask ourselves, what am I thinking about internally?
问问自己，我内心在想什么？
What is my internal script?
我的内部脚本是什么？
What am I focusing on externally?
我在外部关注什么？
Am I spending all day on Twitter looking at accounts that I know I hate because it activates something in me, et cetera?
我是否一整天都在推特上浏览那些我知道自己讨厌的账户，因为它激活了我内心的某些东西等等？
I might have revealed something about myself.
我可能透露了一些关于我自己的事情。
I'm just kidding.
我只是在开玩笑。
That's not my behavior, but I see a lot of other people doing it.
这不是我的行为，但我看到很多其他人这样做。
What are my behavioral choices?
我的行为选择是什么？
What could bring about more hopefulness and strivings?
什么可以带来更多的希望和努力？
Do I have that right?
我有这个权利吗？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
And there's so much of this that, say, one could do on one's own, right?
比如说，有很多事情是一个人可以自己完成的，对吗？
Because we can think about ourselves, and we can learn things.
因为我们可以思考自己，我们可以学习东西。
If we say, "Well, I don't really know that much about defense mechanisms," okay, look, we could read about it, right?
如果我们说，“嗯，我真的不太了解防御机制”，好吧，看，我们可以读到它，对吧？
We can do a lot of this on our own, and we can get so much from talking to other people.
我们可以自己做很多事情，并且可以从与其他人的交谈中得到很多东西。
People in our lives who are close to us, who love us, right?
我们生活中那些亲近我们、爱我们的人，对吗？
We can talk with them about what's going on inside of us, right?
我们可以和他们谈论我们内心发生的事情，对吗？
And that is such an amazing mechanism of learning, and there are also professional resources.
这是一个非常神奇的学习机制，而且还有专业的资源。
Good therapy should encompass, this should be what it's doing, right?
好的治疗应该包括，这应该是它正在做的，对吗？
It might come at it through one lens or another lens, because everybody's different, and we can bring different modalities, but ultimately, that's what good therapy is doing, right?
它可能会通过一个或另一个镜头来实现，因为每个人都是不同的，我们可以采取不同的方式，但最终，这就是良好的治疗所做的，对吗？
It's looking in all 10 of those cupboards, and it's seeing where is the issue.
它正在检查所有 10 个橱柜，看看问题出在哪里。
Let's follow the clues.
让我们跟随线索。
It's a spirited inquiry, right?
这是一次充满激情的探究，对吧？
Whether we're doing it on our own, or we're doing it with other people in our personal lives, or we're doing it with someone professionally, it's a spirited inquiry to follow the clues, because if we follow the clues, there are answers, right?
无论我们是自己做，还是在个人生活中与其他人一起做，或者是与专业人士一起做，追踪线索都是一种充满活力的探究，因为如果我们追踪线索，就会有答案，对吗？
And if we have the answers, then we can bring things into better alignment, and then we're in a better place.
如果我们找到了答案，那么我们就能更好地协调事情，然后我们就会处于一个更好的境地。
Those pillars are more stable, and we can build on top of them what we want to build on top of them, and the drives come better into line.
这些支柱更加稳定，我们可以在它们之上构建我们想要构建的东西，并且驱动器会更好地协调一致。
That we can do that, and it can be an iterative process of if we attain some better state of mind and life is better and we're happy.
我们可以做到这一点，如果我们获得更好的心态，生活会更好，我们会快乐，这可能是一个迭代的过程。
This happens to people.
这发生在人们身上。
There's a lot of contentment and peace, and if things are going well and now something isn't as much, go back and look again.
有很多满足感和平静，如果事情进展顺利，但现在有些事情不那么顺利，请回去再看看。
Right?
正确的？
It's a process we can use over and over because it works, because it fits with the truths and the reality as we have understood, learned them, our education.
这是一个我们可以反复使用的过程，因为它有效，因为它符合我们所理解、学到的、我们所受的教育的真理和现实。
This learning about humans across hundreds of years tells us this.
数百年来对人类的了解告诉我们这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It makes very good sense to me in the way that you have mapped it out for us.
您为我们制定的计划对我来说非常有意义。
So much sense, in fact, that I'm just struck by how divergent it is from what I think most people think of when they think of therapy, or some of the risks of going to a psychiatrist, which I think it's only fair to consider.
事实上，它的意义如此之大，以至于我只是惊讶于它与我认为大多数人在想到治疗时所想到的有多么不同，或者是去看精神科医生的一些风险，我认为这是公平的考虑。
In particular, the way that, at least from my outside non-clinical understanding, these sorts of situations of high levels of demoralization or excessive aggression or just people not being in the place or being able to exert their actions in the world the way they want or not get the results they want is they'll start asking questions like maybe I have a chemical imbalance.
特别是，至少从我外部的非临床理解来看，这种高度士气低落或过度攻击性的情况，或者只是人们不在适当的地方，或者无法按照他们想要的方式在世界上采取行动，或者没有得到他们想要的结果，他们会开始问一些问题，比如我可能有化学失衡。
Or maybe they'll go to a clinician, maybe a cognitive behavioral therapist or psychiatrist, and more often than not, it seems they'll get a prescription for X number of milligrams of some serotonergic agonist or dopaminergic agonist in it.
或者也许他们会去看临床医生，也许是认知行为治疗师或精神科医生，而且通常情况下，他们似乎会得到 X 毫克的一些血清素激动剂或多巴胺能激动剂的处方。
Of course, as a neurobiologist, I applaud the exploration of underlying brain mechanisms and the involvement of neuromodulators like dopamine and serotonin.
当然，作为一名神经生物学家，我赞赏对潜在大脑机制的探索以及多巴胺和血清素等神经调节剂的参与。
But what you're describing today is very different, I think, than what most people can expect if they go to the typical psychiatrist or typical psychologist, which is part of the reason we're having this conversation.
但我认为，你今天所描述的内容与大多数人去看典型的精神科医生或典型的心理学家时所期望的非常不同，这也是我们进行这次对话的部分原因。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I'd love your thoughts on that.
但我很想听听你对此的想法。
And I don't want to make this about me.
我不想让这件事发生在我身上。
I only offer this anecdote as a way to round out a little bit of the earlier discussion.
我提供这个轶事只是为了完善之前的一些讨论。
I've never shared this publicly, but when I was a postdoc and going through that very hard phase of competition that I didn't want and having a hard time staying in touch with that, and there were some other developmental things starting to resurface just by virtue of moving back to the town I grew up in et cetera.
我从来没有公开分享过这一点，但是当我还是一名博士后并经历了我不想要的非常艰难的竞争阶段并且很难保持联系时，并且由于搬回我长大的城镇等，其他一些发展的事情开始重新浮出水面。
I recall getting to the stairway of the building I was working in at the time, which is the same one where my laboratory exists now, actually, and realizing I couldn't go up the stairway.
我记得走到我当时工作的大楼的楼梯处（实际上，这就是我现在的实验室所在的大楼），然后意识到我无法走上楼梯。
I've always been reasonably fit.
我一直都很健康。
And just being so exhausted and then driving home that day on 280 and thinking, like, "None of this matters.
那天我实在太累了，然后开车回家，开车回家，心想，“这一切都不重要了。
What am I doing?
我在做什么？
None of it matters." I could've been exhausted.
这些都不重要。”我可能已经筋疲力尽了。
I don't know what it was, but what that ultimately resulted in was me talking to a psychiatrist who gave me a low dose of a serotonergic antidepressant.
我不知道那是什么，但最终的结果是我和一位精神科医生交谈，他给了我低剂量的血清素抗抑郁药。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I took that low dose of serotonergic antidepressant.
我服用了低剂量的血清素抗抑郁药。
I don't recall which one it was.
我不记得是哪一个了。
Maybe it was citalopram.
也许是西酞普兰。
Would that make sense?
这有意义吗？
And spent that evening staring at my plate of Thai noodles for about two hours.
那天晚上，我盯着我那盘泰国面条看了大约两个小时。
It hit me really hard and I hated that feeling, and then just stopped taking the drug.
这对我打击很大，我讨厌那种感觉，然后就停止服药了。
Now, this is no knock on citalopram or the use of serotonergic agents in the proper context.
现在，这并不是对西酞普兰或在适当情况下使用血清素药物的批评。
They've saved lives, although they're problematic too.
它们拯救了生命，尽管它们也存在问题。
But that wasn't the route that eventually got me out of it.
但这并不是最终让我摆脱困境的途径。
It was mainly talk therapy and self-care.
主要是谈话疗法和自我护理。
But I just offer that because even as a neurobiologist, perhaps especially as a neurobiologist, I thought, "Okay, here's the solution.
但我只是提出这一点，因为即使作为一名神经生物学家，也许尤其是作为一名神经生物学家，我想，“好吧，这就是解决方案。
It's going to shift some internal modulatory system, and I'm going to feel okay about the situation I'm in." And thank goodness it didn't work, even for a short while.
它会改变一些内部调节系统，我会对自己所处的情况感觉良好。”谢天谢地，它没有起作用，即使是很短的一段时间。
Because while I didn't do all the things that you're describing here of exploring the function of self because no one has ever laid this out for me, I took the route of talk therapy, which I find immensely beneficial.
因为虽然我没有做你在这里描述的探索自我功能的所有事情，因为没有人为我阐述过这一点，但我采取了谈话疗法的途径，我发现这非常有益。
Takes time, but immensely beneficial.
需要时间，但非常有益。
So what are your thoughts on the current strategies for diagnosis, where those succeed, where they fall short, and the role of medication in navigating this simple and yet complex landscape?
那么，您对当前的诊断策略有何看法？这些策略在哪些方面成功，哪些方面不足，以及药物在应对这一简单而又复杂的局面中所扮演的角色？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
We are so dramatically over-reductionist.
我们实在是过于还原论了。
It's almost to the point of unbelievable.
几乎到了令人难以置信的地步。
Think about getting a medicine, getting some, say, citalopram because of what happened.
考虑一下因为发生的事情而服用药物，例如西酞普兰。
It can't possibly work.
这不可能行得通。
Now, maybe a judiciously chosen medicine could provide a little more distress tolerance, and you could think about it more, and you could find your way through it.
现在，也许一种明智选择的药物可以提供更多一点的痛苦耐受力，你可以更多地思考它，你可以找到解决办法。
But clearly, it was an issue of self.
但显然，这是一个自我问题。
You're in a situation that was high-stress and are you going to have to have this competition or not?
您正处于压力很大的情况下，您是否必须参加这场比赛？
Is it going to be good for you?
这对你有好处吗？
And you don't want that, but can you avoid it?
你不希望这样，但你能避免吗？
There's something going on that makes you not be able to walk up those stairs.
发生了一些事情使您无法走上楼梯。
So again, I'm not criticizing.
再说一次，我不是在批评。
I don't know what the person, what kind of conversations you had about it with the person, but the idea that a pill will fix that is insane.
我不知道那个人是什么人，你和那个人进行了什么样的对话，但用药物就能解决这个问题的想法太疯狂了。
Now, medicines can help smooth the way.
现在，药物可以帮助铺平道路。
So let's say you initially went, and the first time you see someone, they say, "Okay, we have to talk about this.
假设你最初去了，当你第一次见到某人时，他们说：“好吧，我们必须谈谈这个。
What's going on in your life?" Because normally you can walk upstairs and go to work.
你的生活发生了什么事？”因为通常你可以步行上楼去上班。
Why can't you now?
为什么现在不能？
We need to think about that.
我们需要考虑一下。
We need to talk about that.
我们需要谈谈这个。
Let's say you start doing that and you're having a lot of trouble with it, or you're just having really high levels of anxiety.
假设你开始这样做并且遇到了很多麻烦，或者你只是非常焦虑。
We might say, look, a medicine can take the temperature down a little bit, give you a little more distress tolerance, and then you can think about it better inside of you, and we can talk about it better.
我们可能会说，看，药物可以把体温降下来一点，给你多一点痛苦的承受能力，然后你可以在内心更好地思考它，我们可以更好地谈论它。
But it's medicine in the service of understanding.
但这是为理解服务的药物。
Now, sometimes medicines are doing things like medicines that can help prevent bipolar episodes.
现在，有时药物可以起到帮助预防双相情感障碍发作的作用。
They're doing something that is purely biological, but we use so many medicines for things that are not biological, they're psychological, but we're so over-reductionist that we could actually over-reduce the problem that you said.
他们正在做一些纯粹生物学的事情，但我们使用了很多药物来治疗非生物的事情，它们是心理上的，但我们是如此过度还原论，以至于我们实际上可以过度还原你所说的问题。
Like a clear, wow, that's fascinating.
就像一个清晰的，哇，这太迷人了。
How many times have you gone up those stairs and now you can't?
有多少次你爬上那些楼梯而现在却不能了？
It's so interesting, the idea of like, let's just give you a pill.
这太有趣了，就像我们给你一颗药丸一样。
It really makes no sense, but if we're over-reductionist enough, you could see how that's the logical endpoint of an illogical process.
这确实没有意义，但如果我们足够过度还原论，你就会明白这是一个不合逻辑的过程的逻辑终点。
And I'll give you another example, and this is a true story of a young woman who comes into the emergency room, and she says she can't sleep.
我再举一个例子，这是一个真实的故事，一位年轻女子走进急诊室，她说她睡不着。
And she looks anxious, and she feels very anxious by her description, and that's why she can't sleep.
而且她看起来很着急，而且从她的描述来看，她感觉很着急，所以她睡不着。
And she gets a sleeping medicine and she goes home.
她拿到安眠药后就回家了。
And then she comes back a couple of days later and she's very anxious, and she can't sleep, and she looks like she did before.
几天后她回来了，她非常焦虑，睡不着，她看起来就像以前一样。
Nothing seems to be different, and she hasn't gotten any sleep at all.
似乎没有什么不同，她根本就没有睡过。
So the doctor in charge gives her a higher dose of the sleeping medicine.
于是主治医生给她开了更大剂量的安眠药。
Then she goes home, and then she comes back yet again, and nothing is any different.
然后她回家，然后又回来，一切都没有什么不同。
She's still not sleeping.
她还没睡呢。
She's still anxious.
她还是很着急。
And then the doctor concludes that she's drug-seeking because she wants more and more of the sleeping medicine.
然后医生得出结论，她正在寻求药物，因为她想要越来越多的安眠药。
What was actually going on was she was getting hurt at home.
实际上发生的事情是她在家里受伤了。
She was terrified to go home.
她很害怕回家。
Of course, she couldn't sleep.
当然，她睡不着。
Bad things were happening.
糟糕的事情正在发生。
But no one asked the question.
但没有人问这个问题。
They thought, she cannot sleep.
他们想，她睡不着。
We'll give sleeping medicine.
我们会给安眠药。
Instead of asking why.
而不是问为什么。
And then she's sent home, and when the medicine doesn't work, well, now there's something wrong with her.
然后她被送回家，当药物不起作用时，好吧，现在她出了问题。
And if you put that label on her, now she's drug-seeking, then she's not going to get any help.
如果你给她贴上这个标签，现在她正在寻求毒品，那么她就不会得到任何帮助。
So I'm not against medicines.
所以我并不反对药物。
I use psychopharmacology as part of my practice, and I think from a biologically based perspective about many things.
我将精神药理学作为我实践的一部分，并且我从生物学的角度思考很多事情。
But we have to know what something is the answer for and what something is not the answer for.
但我们必须知道什么是答案，什么不是答案。
And in the overly reductionist world of throughput in healthcare systems, people are even being trained these days that don't know any different.
在医疗保健系统吞吐量过于简化的世界中，人们现在甚至接受的培训也不知道有什么不同。
And I'm not trying to be overly critical of practitioners, because often practitioners are working in impossible situations where the goal is throughput, and that's more efficient in the short term It's more efficient today.
我并不是想对从业者过度批评，因为从业者通常在不可能的情况下工作，其目标是吞吐量，而这在短期内更有效，今天更高效。
But it's, of course, not good in anything but the today term.
但当然，除了今天的术语之外，它在任何方面都不好。
And it's interesting because it's never good for the person even today.
这很有趣，因为即使在今天，这对人也没有好处。
It's never good for the people in it.
对于里面的人来说从来都不是一件好事。
But often, these decisions are being made based upon business and money, and I understand business and money.
但通常，这些决定是基于商业和金钱而做出的，而我了解商业和金钱。
I'm a capitalist.
我是一个资本家。
I'm interested in these things.
我对这些事情很感兴趣。
But the way that we have let things get, the business and money with a short-sighted, short-term perspective, then bonds with the over-reductionist ways that we approach medicine, and then we have these bizarre things happen, and these kind of bizarre things end lives.
但是我们让事情发展的方式，以短视、短视的眼光对待商业和金钱，然后与我们对待医学的过度简化的方式联系在一起，然后我们就会发生这些奇怪的事情，这些奇怪的事情结束了生命。
They change the courses of lives.
他们改变了人生的轨迹。
Fortunately, you got what you needed, and you figured things out, but if you hadn't, would you have the career you have?
幸运的是，你得到了你需要的东西，并且你解决了问题，但如果你没有，你还会拥有现在的职业吗？
We don't know.
我们不知道。
Or if someone else hadn't realized, like, "Let's talk to that woman and see what's going on," would she have survived?
或者，如果其他人没有意识到，比如“让我们和那个女人谈谈，看看发生了什么事”，她会活下来吗？
We don't know.
我们不知道。
But the point of that is lots of bad things happen.
但重点是会发生很多不好的事情。
We're rolling the dice too many times with too many people, and it doesn't have to be that way, and the way that we're doing it now is not only inefficient financially, the thing that we seem to be caring about most, it leads to bad outcomes, and it also makes no sense.
我们和太多的人一起掷骰子太多次了，事情本来不必如此，而我们现在这样做的方式不仅在财务上效率低下，这似乎是我们最关心的事情，它会导致不好的结果，而且也没有意义。
We're looking at it through this sort of bizarre lens, then we may find within us the strength to change that and to change it in a way that actually fits the science and fits the common sense.
我们通过这种奇怪的镜头来看待它，然后我们可能会发现我们内心有力量去改变它，并以一种真正符合科学和常识的方式改变它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now, I have to imagine that both for people who require medication in order to cope, in order to manage their way through these questions about function of self and how they are in the world, what they're paying attention to, et cetera, and for people who don't require medication to do this exploration, that this very same exploration is the roadmap to feeling-
现在，我必须想象，对于那些需要药物来应对、为了管理自己的方式解决这些关于自我功能、他们在世界上如何、他们在关注什么等等问题的人，以及对于那些不需要药物来进行这种探索的人来说，这种同样的探索是感觉的路线图——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
agency, gratitude, peace, contentment, and delight.
能动性、感恩、平和、满足和喜悦。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Medicines may have a role.
药物可能有一定作用。
So if, for example, we go look at the pillars and things are not going so well, and you see that whenever that person has a bipolar manic episode, wow, things get really, really damaged, and it's very, very hard, they can't recover from that in the ways they want to, then we'd say, "We're going to use medicine to help this." Now, of course, there are other things, too.
因此，例如，如果我们去看支柱，事情进展得不太顺利，你会看到，每当那个人患有双相躁狂发作时，哇，事情真的被严重损坏了，而且非常非常困难，他们无法以他们想要的方式从中恢复，那么我们会说，“我们将使用药物来帮助解决这个问题。”当然，现在还有其他事情。
You use behavioral changes, for example.
例如，您可以使用行为改变。
But there's a clear biological role, just like we use medicine to stop seizures.
但它有明显的生物学作用，就像我们用药物来阻止癫痫发作一样。
But people also have to make sure they're not super sleep deprived.
但人们还必须确保自己没有极度缺乏睡眠。
There's another part to it, too.
还有另一部分。
We can use medicine to prevent bipolar episodes, but there's another part of self-care involved, too.
我们可以使用药物来预防双相情感障碍发作，但还涉及自我护理的另一部分。
But it's a role of medicine.
但这是医学的作用。
Just as if anxiety levels aren't coming down too much, say, for the person to get at the trauma.
就好像焦虑水平没有下降太多，以至于人们无法承受创伤。
They know there's a trauma.
他们知道有创伤。
They've talked around it for 20 years.
他们已经围绕这个问题讨论了 20 年。
They know it's been impacting them.
他们知道这一直在影响他们。
They're not sure how.
他们不确定如何。
It's hard to go there.
去那里很难。
They're with a trusted therapist, but it's still hard to put words to it, and now they're maybe having a panic attack.
他们有一位值得信赖的治疗师，但仍然很难用言语来表达，现在他们可能正在惊恐发作。
You think, "Okay, we can use medicines to take the temperature down, to sort of ease that person's way forward so that they can understand something." That then provides a resolution in that part of the pillar, and then things are set in a better place.
你会想，“好吧，我们可以使用药物来降低体温，以缓解那个人的前进方式，以便他们能够理解一些事情。”然后，这为支柱的那部分提供了解决方案，然后事情就设置在一个更好的地方。
So the biological aspect, and specifically here, we're talking about medicines, has its place, but the idea that medicines are a substitute for understanding just makes no sense.
因此，生物学方面，特别是在这里，我们谈论药物，有其地位，但药物可以替代理解的想法是没有意义的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, you've provided us an incredible framework.
嗯，你为我们提供了一个令人难以置信的框架。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This framework really speaks to all of us.
这个框架确实对我们所有人都有启发。
The components that make us who we are.
这些组成部分造就了我们。
As you put it, the structure of the self.
正如你所说，自我的结构。
Everything from the unconscious mind, conscious mind, defense mechanisms, character structure, self, and the functions of self.
从潜意识、意识、防御机制、性格结构、自我和自我功能的一切。
These components of self-awareness, defense mechanisms, reaching up from that iceberg under the water.
这些自我意识、防御机制的组成部分，从水下的冰山延伸出来。
What we pay attention to, our behaviors, and hopefully our strivings and sense of hope.
我们关注什么，我们的行为，以及我们的努力和希望感。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And how those two pillars flow up into empowerment, humility, agency, and gratitude.
以及这两个支柱如何转化为赋权、谦逊、能动性和感恩。
Again, as action terms, as active terms.
再次强调，作为行动术语，作为主动术语。
And eventually to peace, contentment, and delight, and this notion of generative drive.
最终达到平静、满足和喜悦，以及这种生成动力的概念。
As well as some of the pitfalls and challenges that can pull down on generative drive or occlude generative drive.
以及一些可能会降低生成内驱力或阻碍生成内驱力的陷阱和挑战。
And you very clearly pointed us to where we should all look in terms of understanding ourselves better and where we could do better and be better in the world.
您非常清楚地向我们指出了我们应该从哪些方面更好地了解自己，以及我们可以在哪些方面做得更好，让世界变得更好。
Because this is a series, we have the wonderful opportunity to have you tell us even more about how this structure plays out, both in terms of its healthy expression and in terms of its unhealthy expression, in different pathologic conditions that most of us are familiar with, at least in name.
因为这是一个系列，所以我们有很好的机会让您告诉我们更多关于这种结构如何发挥作用，无论是在健康表达方面还是在不健康表达方面，在我们大多数人都熟悉的不同病理条件下，至少在名称上。
And I'm sure you're going to tell us more about what the real both underpinnings and expressions of things like narcissism in extreme and mild form, anxiety in its extreme and mild forms, and also some of the names and diagnoses that we're more familiar with hearing about, such as bipolar disorder, obsessive-compulsive, things of that sort.
我相信你会告诉我们更多关于极端和轻微形式的自恋、极端和轻微形式的焦虑等事物的真正基础和表达方式，以及我们更熟悉的一些名称和诊断，例如双相情感障碍、强迫症等。
But that all relate back to and really are nested in this structure and function of self and where it can all go.
但这一切都与自我的结构和功能以及它可以去的地方有关，并且确实嵌套在其中。
So first of all, I want to say thank you, really an immense thank you for-
首先，我想说谢谢你们，真的非常感谢——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Oh, you're so welcome
哦，不客气
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
defining this structure and making it so clear to me and to everybody else.
定义这个结构并使其对我和其他人来说都如此清晰。
And as you said, it has its complexity.
正如你所说，它有其复杂性。
There's, in fact, immense complexity down there at the bottom, but that flows up from complex to very simple ideals and a roadmap to get there.
事实上，底层存在着巨大的复杂性，但它从复杂到非常简单的理想和实现目标的路线图。
And again, the PDF is available to people as a link in the show note captions, should they want to see this in visual form.
同样，如果人们想以视觉形式查看该 PDF，则可以通过显示注释标题中的链接来获取该 PDF。
I also want to thank you for assembling this structure, not just as a tutorial, but because, at least to my knowledge, no such structure or summary of these structures exist anywhere in the world, and certainly not in any form that the non-clinician and not highly trained psychiatrist could ever access or understand.
我还要感谢您组装这个结构，不仅仅是作为一个教程，而是因为，至少据我所知，世界上任何地方都不存在这样的结构或这些结构的摘要，当然也不是非临床医生和未经训练有素的精神病学家能够访问或理解的任何形式。
So this is both an immense resource and an immense gift to us all.
因此，这对我们所有人来说既是巨大的资源，也是一份巨大的礼物。
Thank you so very much.
非常感谢。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
You're so welcome, and thank you for having me here, which is a gift.
非常欢迎你，感谢你邀请我来到这里，这是一份礼物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
To be continued in the next episode.
下一集继续。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Thank you for joining me for this first episode of our series on mental health with Dr. Paul Conti.
感谢您与我一起观看 Paul Conti 博士的心理健康系列节目的第一集。
And I encourage you to keep an eye out for the second episode in the series, which is going to be about how to improve your mental health.
我鼓励您留意该系列的第二集，该集将介绍如何改善您的心理健康。
I'll just remind you that all episodes of the "Huberman Lab" podcast can be accessed completely zero cost and in all formats by going to hubermanlab.com.
我只是提醒您，通过访问 hubermanlab.com，可以完全零成本且以所有格式访问“Huberman Lab”播客的所有剧集。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请在 Spotify 和 Apple 上订阅该播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests that you'd like me to consider hosting on the "Huberman Lab" podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对您希望我考虑在“Huberman Lab”播客上主持的播客或嘉宾有意见，请将这些意见放在 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
And if you're not already following me on social media, I am hubermanlab on all platforms.
如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有平台上的 hubermanlab。
So that's Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn, Threads, and Facebook.
这就是 Instagram、Twitter、LinkedIn、Threads 和 Facebook。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlap with the content of the "Huberman Lab" podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content of the "Huberman Lab" podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与“Huberman Lab”播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与“Huberman Lab”播客的内容不同。
So again, it's hubermanlab on all social media channels.
再说一次，所有社交媒体渠道上都是 hubermanlab。
Not on today's episode, but on many previous episodes of the "Huberman Lab" podcast, we discuss supplements.
不是在今天的节目中，而是在“Huberman Lab”播客的许多以前的节目中，我们讨论了补充剂。
While supplements aren't necessary for everybody, many people derive tremendous benefit from them for things like enhancing sleep, for hormone support, and for focus.
虽然补充剂并不是每个人都需要的，但许多人从它们中获得了巨大的好处，例如增强睡眠、激素支持和注意力集中。
If you'd like to see the supplements discussed on the "Huberman Lab" podcast, you can go to Live Momentous, spelled O-U-S, so it's livemomentous.com/huberman.
如果您想查看“Huberman Lab”播客中讨论的补充内容，可以访问 Live Momentous，拼写为 O-U-S，即 livemomentous.com/huberman。
If you haven't already subscribed to our newsletter, it is a zero-cost newsletter called the Neural Network Newsletter, and in the Neural Network Newsletter, you get free podcast summaries as well as toolkits.
如果您还没有订阅我们的时事通讯，这是一份名为“神经网络时事通讯”的零成本时事通讯，在神经网络时事通讯中，您可以获得免费的播客摘要和工具包。
The toolkits are brief PDFs that list off the specific science-backed protocols for things like improving your sleep, improving focus, optimizing dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.
这些工具包是简短的 PDF，列出了具体的科学支持的方案，例如改善睡眠、提高注意力、优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等。
We have a complete summary of our fitness series.
我们对健身系列有一个完整的总结。
Again, all available completely zero cost.
再次强调，所有这些都是完全零成本的。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu, scroll down to Newsletter, and provide your email to sign up.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，进入菜单，向下滚动到时事通讯，然后提供您的电子邮件即可注册。
We do not share your email with anybody.
我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion, which is the first episode in our series about mental health with Dr. Paul Conti.
再次感谢您参加今天的讨论，这是我们与 Paul Conti 博士讨论心理健康系列的第一集。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。