Guest Series | Dr. Paul Conti: How to Improve Your Mental Health
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab Guest Series, where I and an expert guest discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到胡伯曼实验室嘉宾系列，我和一位专家嘉宾讨论了日常生活中的科学和基于科学的工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
Today's episode marks the second episode in our four-episode series with Dr. Paul Conti about mental health.
今天的这一集是我们与保罗·康蒂博士共同探讨心理健康的四集系列节目的第二集。
The first episode in the series dealt with how to understand and assess your level of mental health.
该系列的第一集讨论如何理解和评估您的心理健康水平。
Today's episode is about how to improve your mental health.
今天的节目是关于如何改善心理健康。
I do want to emphasize that you do not need to have heard or seen the first episode in order to understand or glean important information from today's episode about how to improve your mental health.
我确实想强调，您不需要听过或看过第一集就可以理解或收集今天这一集中有关如何改善心理健康的重要信息。
But I do encourage you to go and listen to the first episode at some point if you have not already.
但我确实鼓励您在某个时候去听第一集（如果您还没有的话）。
Today's episode deals with several topics important to all of us, as well as protocols to improve one's mental health.
今天的节目涉及对我们所有人都很重要的几个主题，以及改善心理健康的方案。
For instance, you will learn how to guide yourself through a process of self-inquiry in which you address certain key questions about your drives, your level of aggressive drive, pleasure drive, and the so-called generative drive.
例如，您将学习如何引导自己完成自我探究的过程，在这个过程中您可以解决有关您的驱动力、攻击性驱动力、愉悦性驱动力和所谓的生成性驱动力的水平的某些关键问题。
These are essential things to understand about oneself if you want to guide yourself toward your aspirations and if you want to understand how your subconscious processing is influencing your thoughts and your behaviors and your feelings in ways that sometimes serve your aspirations and in other ways that can hinder your aspirations.
如果你想引导自己实现自己的愿望，如果你想了解你的潜意识处理如何影响你的思想、你的行为和你的感受，有时会服务于你的愿望，有时会阻碍你的愿望，那么这些都是了解自己的基本知识。
Dr. Conti shares with us a way of assessing our internal narratives, as well as a way of creating a constructive self-awareness and an understanding of where those narratives and that self-awareness stem from in our childhood so that we can navigate forward with the greatest sense of agency.
孔蒂博士与我们分享了一种评估我们内部叙事的方法，以及一种创建建设性自我意识的方法，以及一种了解这些叙事和自我意识在我们童年时期的根源的方法，以便我们能够以最大的能动性意识前进。
We also talk about how to move past common hindrances to improving one's mental health, such as overcoming intrusive thoughts.
我们还讨论如何克服常见障碍来改善心理健康，例如克服侵入性想法。
And perhaps most importantly, today's episode provides information and protocols that anyone can use to cultivate their generative drive, which is a hallmark of mental health.
也许最重要的是，今天的节目提供了任何人都可以用来培养创造力的信息和协议，这是心理健康的标志。
Just a reminder that Dr. Paul Conti has generously provided a few diagrams that we include as PDFs in the show note captions.
只是提醒一下，Paul Conti 博士慷慨地提供了一些图表，我们将其作为 PDF 包含在演出注释标题中。
They are completely zero cost to access, and they can help you understand some of the material that was discussed in the first episode of this series, as well as the current episode about how to improve your mental health.
它们的访问成本完全为零，可以帮助您了解本系列第一集中讨论的一些材料，以及当前剧集有关如何改善心理健康的内容。
And while those simple PDF diagrams are certainly not necessary in order to understand the material in today's discussion or in the other discussions of this series, many people find them useful.
虽然这些简单的 PDF 图表对于理解今天的讨论或本系列其他讨论中的材料当然不是必需的，但许多人发现它们很有用。
So I encourage you to check out those links in the show note captions.
因此，我鼓励您查看显示注释标题中的这些链接。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。
Our first sponsor is BetterHelp.
我们的第一个赞助商是 BetterHelp。
BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out online.
BetterHelp 提供由持证治疗师在线进行的专业治疗。
I personally have been doing weekly therapy for more than 30 years.
我个人每周进行一次治疗已经有 30 多年了。
And while that weekly therapy was initiated not by my own request, it was in fact a requirement for me to remain in high school, over time I really came to appreciate just how valuable doing quality therapy is.
虽然每周的治疗不是由我自己的要求发起的，但这实际上是我留在高中的要求，随着时间的推移，我真正开始意识到进行高质量的治疗是多么有价值。
In fact, I look at doing quality therapy much in the same way that I look at going to the gym or doing cardiovascular training, such as running, as ways to enhance my physical health.
事实上，我看待高质量治疗的方式与我看待去健身房或进行心血管训练（例如跑步）的方式大致相同，都是为了增强我的身体健康。
I see therapy as a vital way to enhance one's mental health.
我认为治疗是增强心理健康的重要方法。
The beauty of BetterHelp is that they make it very easy to find an excellent therapist.
BetterHelp 的美妙之处在于，它们让您可以轻松找到优秀的治疗师。
An excellent therapist can be defined as somebody who is going to be very supportive of you in an objective way, with whom you have excellent rapport with, and who can help you arrive at key insights that you wouldn't have otherwise been able to find.
一个优秀的治疗师可以被定义为一个会以客观的方式非常支持你的人，与你有很好的融洽关系，并且能够帮助你获得你原本无法找到的关键见解。
And because BetterHelp therapy is conducted entirely online, it's extremely convenient and easy to incorporate into the rest of your life.
由于 BetterHelp 治疗完全在线进行，因此非常方便且易于融入您的余生。
So if you're interested in BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month.
因此，如果您对 BetterHelp 感兴趣，请访问 betterhelp.com/huberman，第一个月可享受 10% 的折扣。
That's BetterHelp, spelled H-E-L-P, .com/huberman.
这就是 BetterHelp，拼写为 H-E-L-P，.com/huberman。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Waking Up.
今天的节目也是由Wakeing Up为我们带来的。
Waking Up is a meditation app that offers dozens of guided meditation sessions, mindfulness trainings, yoga nidra sessions, and more.
Waking Up 是一款冥想应用程序，提供数十个引导冥想课程、正念训练、瑜伽休息课程等。
By now, there's an abundance of data showing that even short daily meditations can greatly improve our mood, reduce anxiety, improve our ability to focus, and can improve our memory.
到目前为止，有大量数据表明，即使是每天短暂的冥想也可以极大地改善我们的情绪，减少焦虑，提高我们的注意力，并可以提高我们的记忆力。
And while there are many different forms of meditation, most people find it difficult to find and stick to a meditation practice in a way that is most beneficial for them.
虽然冥想有许多不同的形式，但大多数人发现很难找到并坚持对他们最有益的冥想练习。
The Waking Up app makes it extremely easy to learn how to meditate and to carry out your daily meditation practice in a way that's going to be most effective and efficient for you.
Wake Up 应用程序让您可以非常轻松地学习如何冥想，并以对您来说最有效和高效的方式进行日常冥想练习。
It includes a variety of different types of meditations of different duration, as well as things like yoga nidra, which place the brain and body into a sort of pseudo-sleep that allows you to emerge feeling incredibly mentally refreshed.
它包括各种不同类型、不同持续时间的冥想，以及瑜伽休息术等，它可以让大脑和身体进入一种假睡眠状态，让你在醒来时感觉精神焕发。
In fact, the science around yoga nidra is really impressive, showing that after a yoga nidra session, levels of dopamine in certain areas of the brain are enhanced by up to 60%, which places the brain and body into a state of enhanced readiness for mental work and for physical work.
事实上，有关瑜伽休息术的科学确实令人印象深刻，表明在瑜伽休息术之后，大脑某些区域的多巴胺水平提高了 60%，这使大脑和身体进入一种为脑力工作和体力工作做好准备的状态。
Another thing I really like about the Waking Up app is that it provides a 30-day introduction course.
我真正喜欢 Waking Up 应用程序的另一件事是它提供了 30 天的入门课程。
So for those of you that have not meditated before or are getting back to a meditation practice, that's fantastic.
因此，对于那些以前没有冥想过或正在重新进行冥想练习的人来说，这真是太棒了。
Or if you're somebody who's already a skilled and regular meditator, Waking Up has more advanced meditations and yoga nidra sessions for you as well.
或者，如果您已经是一名熟练且定期的冥想者，Wake Up 也为您提供更高级的冥想和瑜伽休息课程。
If you'd like to try the Waking Up app, you can go to wakingup.com/huberman and access a free 30-day trial.
如果您想尝试 Waking Up 应用程序，可以访问 wakingup.com/huberman 并获得 30 天的免费试用。
Again, that's wakingup.com/huberman.
再说一遍，那就是 wakingup.com/huberman。
And now for my discussion about mental health with Dr. Paul Conti.
现在我将与保罗·康迪博士讨论心理健康问题。
Dr. Conti, welcome back.
孔蒂博士，欢迎回来。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In the first episode of this series, you laid out for us in a very structured way what true mental health looks like, essentially what we should all be aspiring to.
在本系列的第一集中，您以非常结构化的方式为我们展示了真正的心理健康是什么样子，本质上是我们所有人都应该追求的。
And you touched on these themes of agency and gratitude as verb states, really ways of being in the world-
你谈到了作为动词状态的代理和感恩的主题，这是世界上存在的真正方式——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that allow everybody to have some sense of well-being, to have some sense of themselves in a way that is kind to themselves and to others, and really to feel good and do good in their life.
让每个人都有某种程度的幸福感，以一种善待自己和他人的方式感受到自己，真正感觉良好并在生活中做好事。
And without question, this is what people want.
毫无疑问，这就是人们想要的。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You also spelled out for us these two pillars, the structure of self and the function of self, that consist of a number of different things that from which geyser up or kind of give rise to these feelings of empowerment, humility, agency, and gratitude.
您还为我们阐明了这两个支柱，即自我的结构和自我的功能，它们由许多不同的东西组成，从中间歇性地产生或产生这些赋权、谦卑、代理和感激的感觉。
And reminded us several times that when we are challenged, when we're not doing as well as we would like, that we need to look back to the structure of self and the function of self and ask specific questions in order to arrive or re-arrive at the sense of agency and gratitude.
并多次提醒我们，当我们受到挑战时，当我们做得没有达到我们想要的程度时，我们需要回顾自我的结构和自我的功能，并提出具体的问题，以便达到或重新达到代理感和感恩感。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think it would be wonderful for us if you could just recap the overall model, because it has the components that I just mentioned, but there's some subtlety and some really key aspects of these pillars, structure of self and function of self.
我认为，如果您能够回顾一下整个模型，那对我们来说会很棒，因为它具有我刚才提到的组件，但这些支柱、自我结构和自我功能有一些微妙之处和一些真正关键的方面。
And I think if people keep in mind for today's episode, which is about challenges that people commonly face, and even, if you will, phenotypes that we see commonly out there.
我认为，如果人们记住今天的这一集，它是关于人们通常面临的挑战，甚至，如果你愿意的话，我们常见的表型。
For people that haven't heard of phenotypes, phenotypes are the typical appearance of something.
对于没有听说过表型的人来说，表型是某种事物的典型外观。
So there is the phenotype of the anxious person, the phenotype of the person who just can't seem to get out of a rut.
因此，存在着焦虑者的表型，以及似乎无法摆脱陈规的人的表型。
There's the phenotype of the traumatized person.
这是受创伤者的表型。
And these things play out differently in different individuals, men and women, boys and girls.
这些事情在不同的人、男人和女人、男孩和女孩身上表现得不同。
But we're going to visit many of the most common phenotypes out there and think about how to do better, be better, feel better through the lens of the model that we spelled out in episode one.
但我们将访问许多最常见的表型，并通过我们在第一集中阐述的模型的镜头来思考如何做得更好、变得更好、感觉更好。
And of course, if people have not seen or heard episode one, today's discussion will still be entirely accessible to them.
当然，如果人们还没有看过或听过第一集，他们仍然可以完全理解今天的讨论。
So in keeping with that, if you could just give us an overview of what this structure of the healthy self looks like as a roadmap for where we're all headed today.
因此，根据这一点，您能否给我们概述一下健康自我的结构是什么样子，作为我们今天前进的路线图。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Thanks very much.
非常感谢。
Revisiting the pillars is, I think, the best place to start, because they really are routes to understanding.
我认为，重新审视支柱是最好的起点，因为它们确实是理解的途径。
And if we understand, then we can strategize, we can make change, we can make things better.
如果我们理解，那么我们就可以制定策略，我们可以做出改变，我们可以让事情变得更好。
So the first pillar, the structure of self, starts with the unconscious mind.
因此，第一个支柱，即自我的结构，始于无意识思维。
This incredibly complicated biological supercomputer that's firing a mile a minute underneath the surface in us and is throwing up to the surface all sorts of thoughts and ideas and states that then the conscious mind apprehends, and our awareness comes into play.
这台极其复杂的生物超级计算机在我们体内每分钟以一英里的速度运转，并将各种思想和想法抛到表面，并说明然后意识思维会理解，我们的意识就会发挥作用。
And then we have defense mechanisms that sort of rise up from the unconscious mind, and they circle and sort of gird themselves around the conscious mind, which they can do in an unhealthy way or in a healthy way or anything in between.
然后我们有一些从无意识头脑中升起的防御机制，它们围绕着有意识的头脑盘旋并束缚自己，它们可以以不健康的方式或健康的方式或介于两者之间的任何方式来做到这一点。
And then the character structure is sort of the nest around all of that, and it's from the character structure that we are engaging in the world in the ways that we're engaging.
然后，角色结构是所有这些的巢穴，正是从角色结构中，我们以我们参与的方式参与到这个世界中。
It's our active engagement with the world around us, and the idea is that the self grows out of that.
这是我们与周围世界的积极参与，我们的想法是自我从中成长。
It grows out of that nest sitting on top of the unconscious mind to the conscious mind rising above the defense mechanisms and the character structure.
它从无意识头脑之上的巢穴生长到超越防御机制和性格结构的有意识头脑。
And if we go back to that when we're trying to understand ourselves, trying to understand states of health as well as states of unhappiness or states that aren't healthy.
如果我们回到这一点，当我们试图了解自己，试图了解健康状态以及不快乐或不健康的状态时。
By going back and looking at the structure, we can learn a tremendous amount.
通过回顾并查看结构，我们可以学到很多东西。
Then the other side, the other pillar, is the function of self.
那么另一面，另一根柱子，就是自我的功能。
And it really starts with the self-awareness.
这确实是从自我意识开始的。
The awareness that, hey, there is an I.
意识到，嘿，有一个我。
I am in the world.
我在世上。
These 24 hours in the day are going to pass today, and I'm going to be doing one thing or another.
今天一天的24小时就要过去了，我要做一件事或另一件事。
I'm, to some very significant extent, deciding how am I going to engage in the world around me during that time.
在某种程度上，我正在决定在那段时间我将如何参与周围的世界。
So on top of that are the defense mechanisms in action.
最重要的是防御机制正在发挥作用。
So defense mechanisms, remember, are unconscious.
因此，请记住，防御机制是无意识的。
So there's a lot then going on inside of us that's determining sort of the field set of options.
因此，我们内部发生了很多事情，决定了现场选项集的类型。
There may be a lot of automaticity that narrows down the set of options of what we may entertain, what we may be aware of, what we may decide, and that could happen for better or for worse, depending upon the health of the defense mechanisms.
可能存在很多自动性，缩小了我们可能接受的内容、我们可能意识到的内容、我们可能决定的内容的范围，并且这种情况可能会发生更好或更坏，具体取决于防御机制的健康状况。
But on top of that lies salience.
但最重要的是显着性。
So the idea then we would next visit, okay, what are we paying attention to?
那么我们下次访问的想法是，好吧，我们要注意什么？
What's coming from inside?
从里面传来什么？
What's coming from outside?
外面传来什么？
And we have to not pay attention to many things in order to pay attention to whatever our attention is alighted on at the moment.
我们必须不去关注很多事情，才能关注我们此刻所关注的一切。
So it's a complex process, and it's worth looking at very closely if we want to understand ourselves.
所以这是一个复杂的过程，如果我们想了解自己，就值得仔细观察。
So after thinking about the defense mechanisms in action, the unconscious aspects of how we're engaging with the world, then next to consider is salience, which is sort of where does the mind arrive at at rest?
因此，在思考了起作用的防御机制、我们如何与世界互动的无意识方面之后，接下来要考虑的是显着性，这就是心灵到达休息的地方？
Where does the mind trend towards?
心往哪里去？
Is it something internal?
是内部的东西吗？
Is it something external?
是外在的东西吗？
What are all the things we're not paying attention to in order to pay attention to something?
我们为了关注某件事而没有关注哪些事情？
And is that thing healthy?
那东西健康吗？
Is it not healthy?
难道不健康吗？
Is it serving us well?
它为我们服务好吗？
So there's so much to understand about salience.
所以关于显着性有很多东西需要理解。
And then the next step beyond that is understanding behavior.
然后下一步就是理解行为。
How are we engaging with the world around us?
我们如何与周围的世界互动？
What are our behavioral choices?
我们的行为选择是什么？
What are our automatic behaviors?
我们的自动行为是什么？
And then sitting on top of all of that are our strivings.
而最重要的是我们的努力。
So we have a sense of wanting something in the world around us, and like, what is that?
所以我们有一种想要在我们周围的世界中得到一些东西的感觉，那是什么？
And how are we trying to get to it?
我们如何努力实现这一目标？
And how does it make us feel?
它让我们感觉如何？
So if we look at the 10 elements, the five under the structure of self and the five under the function of self, then what we're really looking at is sort of like looking at 10 cabinets.
因此，如果我们看这 10 个元素，自我结构下的五个元素和自我功能下的五个元素，那么我们真正看到的有点像看 10 个柜子。
And if we're trying to understand ourselves, whether we're trying to just generally understand ourselves or we're trying to get at a problem, then looking in all 10 of those cabinets makes sense.
如果我们想了解自己，无论我们是想大致了解自己还是想解决问题，那么查看所有 10 个柜子都是有意义的。
Some of them will be bare, meaning that they may seem to have very little to do with the problem we're bringing.
其中一些是裸露的，这意味着它们似乎与我们带来的问题没有什么关系。
And we kind of maintain an open mind.
我们保持开放的心态。
We may be led back to that cabinet, and there may be something there.
我们可能会被带回那个柜子，那里可能有东西。
But what usually happens is if we look in all 10 places, we find a couple where there's some rich material to explore.
但通常发生的情况是，如果我们查看所有 10 个地方，我们会发现其中有一些有丰富的材料可供探索。
Sort of the X marks the spot, and then we go and we dig there, to sort of mix metaphors.
X 标记了这个位置，然后我们去那里挖掘，以混合隐喻。
We dig in the cabinet where we're going to find something.
我们在柜子里挖洞，想找到一些东西。
And then it leads forward a process of Understanding.
然后它引导了一个理解的过程。
And if we're bringing those things into line, where we have a healthy structure of self and a healthy function of self, and we're aware of all of this, and we're working on it, we're self-aware, and we're paying attention to everything built on top of that, then what we end up with is a sense of humility, because one cannot be anything but respectful, compassionate, understanding the complexity of all of this and understanding how does it manifest itself in us and just the very fact that we can make our ways in the world is so impressive.
如果我们把这些东西放在一起，我们有一个健康的自我结构和健康的自我功能，我们意识到所有这些，我们正在努力，我们有自我意识，我们关注在此基础上建立的一切，那么我们最终会得到一种谦卑感，因为一个人除了尊重、富有同情心、理解所有这一切的复杂性、理解它如何在我们身上表现出来，以及我们可以让自己成为自己的人这一事实之外，什么也做不了。世界的方式是如此令人印象深刻。
And in a way, I think it brings to us a respect, just a respect for being here, navigating the world.
在某种程度上，我认为它给我们带来了一种尊重，一种对来到这里、环游世界的尊重。
And I think of that respect is born humility, the complexity of us, the fact that millions of things are going on underneath the surface, millions of neurotransmission and endocrinological function.
我认为尊重是与生俱来的谦逊，是我们的复杂性，是数以百万计的事情在表面之下发生的事实，数以百万计的神经传递和内分泌功能。
All of this is going on under the surface.
所有这一切都在表面之下进行。
I'm not even aware of it, and then it kicks up to the surface, generates a tremendous amount of respect for the complexity and also the diligence and perseverance it takes us to navigate through the world.
我什至没有意识到这一点，然后它就浮出水面，产生了对复杂性以及我们在世界上航行所需要的勤奋和毅力的极大尊重。
And I think built upon that understanding is a sense of humility and a sense of empowerment, and the humility and empowerment in action, so expressed, become agency and gratitude.
我认为，建立在这种理解的基础上的是一种谦卑感和一种赋权感，而这种谦卑感和赋权感在行动中表达出来后，就会成为能动性和感激之情。
And agency and gratitude, as you said at the beginning, we're seeing as verbs.
正如您在开头所说，代理和感激之情，我们将其视为动词。
That's how we're living life.
这就是我们的生活方式。
It's through the lens, so to speak, of agency and gratitude that we're actively living.
可以说，我们是通过代理和感恩的镜头来积极生活的。
And again, I would put forth that when we look at measures of human happiness across disciplines and across time, this is always what we see is some way of describing how agency and gratitude together as verbs manifest and then create happiness.
我想再次指出，当我们跨学科、跨时间审视人类幸福的衡量标准时，我们看到的总是某种描述代理和感恩如何作为动词一起显现并创造幸福的方式。
It's the state that we're seeking to be in.
这就是我们想要进入的状态。
Because from that state of active agency and active gratitude, we achieve what it is that I think we're really searching for.
因为从这种积极主动和积极感恩的状态中，我们实现了我认为我们真正寻求的东西。
And there are infinite words throughout human history to describe what that is.
人类历史上有无数的词语来描述它是什么。
We might choose to use words like peacefulness, a sense of peace, a sense of contentment, being delighted by things, just being amazed and impressed by things in the world around us.
我们可能会选择使用诸如平静、平和感、满足感、对事物感到高兴、对我们周围世界的事物感到惊讶和印象等词语。
This is a state that we're striving for.
这是我们正在努力追求的状态。
And I think when people talk about happiness and what we're really trying to get to, it's this.
我认为当人们谈论幸福以及我们真正想要实现的目标时，就是这个。
But it's not that these things are passive.
但这并不是说这些东西是被动的。
These things are coming from the active agency, the active gratitude, and they're then interacting with a generative drive within us.
这些东西来自于积极的主动性、积极的感激之情，然后它们与我们内部的生成动力相互作用。
We have an aggressive drive.
我们有进取的动力。
We have a pleasure drive.
我们开车很愉快。
This has been thought about now for a long time within mental health and validated in a lot of ways.
这个问题在心理健康领域已经被思考了很长时间，并在很多方面得到了验证。
But what hasn't been validated is that they're the only things.
但尚未得到证实的是它们是唯一的东西。
We see human beings striving.
我们看到人类在努力。
We see human beings wanting better for themselves and for the world around them.
我们看到人类希望自己和周围的世界变得更好。
We see acts of kindness that seem to be rooted to nothing other than the act of kindness.
我们看到的善意行为似乎只源于善意行为。
We have within us a drive to know, to understand, to learn, to make better, and that has been described as many things across human history.
我们内心有一种求知、理解、学习、变得更好的动力，这在人类历史上的许多事情中都有描述。
But I think the words we might choose are a generative drive, a drive to create and to make better, and it's the generative drive as something active within us that is then aligning with agency and gratitude.
但我认为我们可能选择的词是一种生成动力，一种创造和变得更好的动力，这种生成动力是我们内心活跃的东西，然后与能动性和感恩相结合。
The active ways in which we express ourselves, and then that all together brings us the peace, the contentment, the sense of delight.
我们表达自己的积极方式，然后所有这些一起给我们带来平静、满足和喜悦的感觉。
Sometimes that may exist in us in a state of rest.
有时，这可能存在于我们的休息状态中。
But very often it's existing in us in a state of activity.
但很多时候它以一种活动的状态存在于我们体内。
And that's why people find the quote unquote happiness, what people are seeking, not just in meditation.
这就是为什么人们发现幸福是人们所追求的，而不仅仅是在冥想中。
Sometimes we can find it there, but people also find it in action.
有时我们可以在那里找到它，但人们也在行动中找到它。
They find it in doing that thing that they love to do or in taking care of someone and learning something.
他们在做自己喜欢做的事情或照顾某人和学习一些东西时找到了乐趣。
So when we look at all of this, we can then have a route of understanding what is going on inside of us and how we can make the changes that let us be in this state, which is really the state that we're seeking.
因此，当我们审视所有这些时，我们就可以了解我们内心正在发生什么，以及如何做出改变，让我们处于这种状态，这正是我们正在寻求的状态。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I really appreciate that you highlight that agency and gratitude are verb states from which peace, contentment, and delight emerge, and also the way that you explain the generative drive that is distinct from aggressive drives and pleasure drives that exist in all of us.
我真的很欣赏你强调代理和感激是动词状态，从中出现和平、满足和喜悦，以及你解释不同于我们所有人中存在的攻击性驱动力和快乐驱动力的生成驱动力的方式。
I am smiling because a number of examples of peace, contentment, and delight while in action come to mind.
我微笑是因为我想起了许多在行动中表现出平静、满足和喜悦的例子。
For me, podcasting, and in particular, preparing for a podcast, trying to mine the literature and figure out where the gems reside and where the confusion could emerge and all of that brings about such peace, contentment, and delight for me.
对我来说，播客，特别是准备播客，试图挖掘文献并找出宝石所在以及混乱可能出现的地方，所有这些都给我带来了如此平静、满足和快乐。
But it's anything but passive.
但这绝不是被动的。
Likewise, yesterday, I had the experience of running into a puppy.
同样，昨天，我也有过撞上小狗的经历。
It's been a while since I've owned a dog, and dogs are delightful.
我已经有一段时间没有养狗了，狗很可爱。
Puppies are particularly delightful.
小狗特别讨人喜欢。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
I had the experience of seeing you light up when you ran into the puppy.
我有过这样的经历：当你遇到小狗时，你会感到很高兴。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You did.
你做到了。
And I'm still buzzing from that short interaction with the puppy downstairs, the Weimaraner puppy.
我仍然因与楼下那只小狗威玛猎犬的短暂互动而兴奋不已。
I don't know why, but I just delight in animals of most all kinds.
我不知道为什么，但我就是喜欢大多数种类的动物。
Not a fan of reptiles, sorry, reptile fans, so much.
不是爬行动物的粉丝，抱歉，爬行动物粉丝，太多了。
But I just derive so much energy from it and it felt like life energy and the way the animal is sort of attentionally scattered is amusing to me as compared to the dog that he will eventually be, which is going to be more linear in his thinking.
但我只是从中获得了如此多的能量，感觉就像生命能量一样，与他最终成为的狗相比，动物分散注意力的方式对我来说很有趣，这在他的思维中会更加线性。
It encapsulates so much of the other things I love, like brain development, et cetera.
它包含了我喜欢的很多其他事情，比如大脑发育等等。
Anyway, I highlight those examples because there's nothing passive about it.
不管怎样，我强调这些例子是因为它没有什么被动的。
It's pure delight and joy for me.
这对我来说是纯粹的喜悦和快乐。
And it intersects with other delights and joys, and I think that as you describe agency and gratitude, peace, contentment, and delight, and these generative forces As well as other forces that exist in us.
它与其他喜悦和喜悦相交，我认为正如你所描述的代理和感激、和平、满足和喜悦，以及这些生成力量以及我们体内存在的其他力量。
I think it's really critical that people understand that these are not states that you sit down and place yourself into, although perhaps one could through reflection or meditation or waking up from a really great night's sleep, things of that sort.
我认为非常重要的是，人们要明白，这些状态不是你坐下来让自己进入的状态，尽管也许人们可以通过反思、冥想或从一夜好眠中醒来，诸如此类的事情来实现。
But that these are things that we can find ourselves awash in if we are doing the right things, and those things can oftentimes be very challenging.
但如果我们做正确的事情，我们就会发现自己被这些事情淹没，而这些事情往往非常具有挑战性。
So assuming I understand the way the model is spelled out correctly, I'm more and more delighted at the fact that this is not just accessible in one domain but is accessible in many different domains for everybody.
因此，假设我理解模型的正确拼写方式，我越来越高兴地发现，这不仅可以在一个域中访问，而且可以在每个人的许多不同域中访问。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is not something unique to my experience, even though I give examples from my own life, but that we really all do have access to this if we're looking in those cupboards, those 10 cupboards, and asking the right questions.
这并不是我的独特经历，尽管我举的是我自己生活中的例子，但如果我们查看那些橱柜，那10个橱柜，并提出正确的问题，我们确实都可以接触到这一点。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yes.
是的。
And to maybe comment even a little further on the experience of you and the dog.
也许还可以进一步评论一下你和狗的经历。
So it was an experience of delight.
所以这是一次愉快的经历。
And you enjoyed it, and it brought a sense of peace and contentment.
你很享受它，它带来了一种平静和满足的感觉。
All of that happens.
所有这些都会发生。
But think about what that's linked to.
但想想这与什么有关。
I believe there's a strong sense of agency in you that you are enacting.
我相信你身上有一种强烈的代理意识。
There's a strong gratitude in you that you're enacting.
你内心对你所表现出的感激之情溢于言表。
You're handling your life in a way.
你正在以某种方式处理你的生活。
And also for all of us, good things always come with good fortune, but it comes with our strivings and our achievements that you're in a place to delight in that.
对于我们所有人来说，美好的事物总是伴随着好运而来，但随着我们的努力和成就而来，你才会感到高兴。
If you are unhappy, like, "I don't like what I'm doing.
如果你不高兴，比如，“我不喜欢我正在做的事情。
I'm angry, I'm frustrated," then there's no room in you to find the delight.
我很生气，我很沮丧，”那么你的内心就没有空间去寻找快乐。
And the delight that you find is also very much linked to the generative drive.
你发现的快乐也与生成动力密切相关。
It makes me think of how you loved and nurtured Costello.
这让我想起你是如何爱和培养科斯特洛的。
So you have it in you to love and nurture a dog, and you have done that in a really wonderful way, and that generative drive is part and parcel of the delight you feel when you see a dog because you love dogs and you think about nurturing, and it all comes together.
所以你有爱和养育一只狗的本能，你已经以一种非常美妙的方式做到了这一点，当你看到一只狗时，这种生成动力是你感受到的喜悦的重要组成部分，因为你爱狗并且你考虑养育，这一切都结合在一起。
The agency and the gratitude expressed as verbs puts you in a position to have that sense of delight, which is so intertwined with your generative drive, with a sense of caretaking, a sense of creating the beyond self, because although you enjoyed and loved Costello, you enjoyed and loved his happiness.
用动词表达的能动性和感激之情让你有一种喜悦感，这种喜悦感与你的生成动力、一种照顾感、一种创造超越自我的感觉交织在一起，因为尽管你享受并爱着科斯特洛，你也享受并爱着他的幸福。
So it all comes together, and I think it's interesting because in some ways it's a simple example, but that's life.
所以这一切结合在一起，我认为这很有趣，因为从某些方面来说，这是一个简单的例子，但这就是生活。
Life has its big moments, but so much of our lives are the smaller moments that link together, and I think that smaller moment becomes a big example.
生活有其重要的时刻，但我们的生活中有很多都是相互联系在一起的较小的时刻，我认为较小的时刻成为一个重要的例子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I appreciate that you mentioned Costello.
我很感激你提到科斯特洛。
For listeners of this podcast that have tuned into early episodes, Costello was the source of the background snoring.
对于收听该播客早期剧集的听众来说，科斯特洛是背景鼾声的来源。
For those of you that haven't, you can go check.
还没有的朋友可以去查一下。
He was a 90-pound English bulldog mastiff who had many skills, the best of which was snoring.
他是一只重90磅的英国斗牛獒，拥有很多本领，其中最擅长的就是打鼾。
So in addition to the generative drive, which is something that we certainly want to talk more about today, you mentioned these other drives, aggressive drives and pleasure drives.
因此，除了我们今天当然想更多地讨论的生成内驱力之外，您还提到了其他内驱力，攻击性内驱力和愉悦内驱力。
And much of what we're talking about today is going to be where people can go wrong or where people struggle.
我们今天讨论的大部分内容都是人们可能出错或陷入困境的地方。
We are also, of course, going to go deeply into where people succeed and in particular where people can ask questions of themselves, in particular what is working for them and why, as a route to understanding how to sift through those cupboards and understand what's not working and why and come up with real actionable answers.
当然，我们还将深入探讨人们成功的地方，特别是人们可以问自己的问题，特别是什么对他们有用以及为什么，以此作为了解如何筛选这些橱柜并了解什么不起作用以及为什么不起作用并提出真正可行的答案的途径。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then the ability to move forward.
然后才有继续前进的能力。
So if you would, could you tell us a little bit more about drives generally?
如果您愿意的话，您能告诉我们更多有关驱动器的一般情况吗？
When I hear drives, I can't help as a neuroscientist but default to, okay, the dopamine circuit or the endogenous opioid circuit or the serotonergic circuit.
当我听到驱动力时，作为一名神经科学家，我情不自禁地默认了多巴胺回路、内源性阿片类回路或血清素能回路。
But how do you conceptualize drives within us?
但你如何概念化我们内心的驱动力呢？
And then perhaps you could tell us what the nature of aggressive drives and pleasure drives and generative drives.
然后也许你可以告诉我们攻击性驱力、快乐性驱力和生成性驱力的本质是什么。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
So the concept of a drive, the definition of a drive is something that's intrinsic to humans.
因此，驱动力的概念、驱动力的定义是人类固有的东西。
So we could look at it as a motivation.
所以我们可以将其视为一种动机。
We don't just lie on the ground and do nothing until we passively die.
我们不会只是躺在地上什么都不做，直到被动地死去。
So something is going on inside of us that is driving us to do something other than that.
所以我们内心正在发生一些事情，驱使我们去做一些其他的事情。
And historically, the thinking in the field arising from early psychodynamic principles, the theory in the field that has really dominated the field, either directly or indirectly in so many ways, has been that there are two drives within us, that there's aggression and pleasure.
从历史上看，该领域的思想源于早期的心理动力学原理，该领域的理论在许多方面直接或间接地真正主导了该领域，一直认为我们内心有两种驱动力，即攻击性和快乐。
And again, these are just words.
再说一遍，这些只是文字。
So we could apply many words, which is why, of course, we want to define what that means.
所以我们可以应用很多词，这就是为什么我们当然想要定义它的含义。
So aggression, even though we're using that word for it because the word for it is commonly used.
所以，尽管我们使用这个词来表示侵略，因为这个词很常用。
But it means sort of forward active engagement.
但这意味着某种程度的积极主动参与。
So a good healthy amount of aggression, using that word for the drive, would be a strong sense of agency.
因此，适量的攻击性（用这个词来形容驱动力）将是一种强烈的代理意识。
So too little aggression can be a problem.
因此，攻击性太少可能会成为一个问题。
Then the person isn't bringing themselves to bear.
那么这个人就不会承受。
So there's too little in the way of self-determination, forward movement, empowerment, agency.
因此，自决、前进、赋权、代理的方式太少了。
And in the same way, too much of this drive becomes actual aggression.
同样地，这种冲动过多就会变成真正的攻击性。
So the idea that I want more, and if I can't get it in certain ways, I'll just take it.
所以我的想法是，我想要更多，如果我不能以某种方式得到它，我就会接受它。
So it starts to become what we more map to the word aggression, which would be something negative in most cases.
所以它开始变成我们更多地映射到“侵略”这个词，在大多数情况下，这将是负面的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like a desire or a tendency to harm.
就像一种渴望或伤害的倾向。
Is that-
难道是——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Sure.
当然。
As aggressive drives get higher, which you see why they're in us, because let's say we're defending ourselves or you're defending a family member or an entire family.
随着攻击性的冲动变得更高，你就会明白为什么它们会出现在我们身上，因为假设我们在保护自己，或者你在保护一个家庭成员或整个家庭。
Then It makes sense to have high levels of aggression if your family is threatened, right?
那么如果你的家人受到威胁，那么表现出高度的攻击性是有道理的，对吧？
So those drives are in us at potentially those high levels for a reason, but we certainly access very high levels of aggression without the indication of preservation of life or preservation of safety.
因此，这些驱动力在我们体内可能处于如此高的水平是有原因的，但我们当然会产生非常高水平的攻击性，而没有表明要保护生命或保护安全。
So, the thought is that's a drive in us, and that gets us up and off the ground, so to speak, right?
所以，我们的想法是，这是我们内心的动力，可以说，它让我们站起来并离开地面，对吗？
And that the other drive then is pleasure, which again, doesn't just mean that we all want to be hedonists, right?
另一个驱动力是快乐，这不仅仅意味着我们都想成为享乐主义者，对吧？
So pleasure could be even the pleasure of relief and safety, right?
所以快乐甚至可以是解脱和安全的快乐，对吗？
We're all back in the cave together and we roll the stone in front of the door.
我们一起回到山洞，把石头滚到门前。
Ah, we're safe.
啊，我们安全了。
Throughout human development, pleasure comes in a lot of ways.
在人类的发展过程中，快乐可以通过多种方式获得。
It can come through the pleasure of food or other people, friendship, romance, sex.
它可以通过食物或他人、友谊、浪漫、性的快乐来实现。
There are a lot of ways we can achieve pleasure.
我们可以通过很多方式获得快乐。
It can be relief of things that are unpleasant, relief of pain.
它可以缓解不愉快的事情，减轻痛苦。
But there's a drive towards this in humans, which again, really does make sense.
但人类有一种朝着这个方向努力的动力，这确实是有道理的。
And too little of it, again, can be problematic because the person then isn't motivated to seek things because they're not anticipating or don't receive gratification.
同样，太少也可能会产生问题，因为这个人没有动力去寻求东西，因为他们没有预期或没有得到满足。
And too much of a drive for pleasure can also create problems.
过度追求享乐也会产生问题。
So we can kind of see how these two drives, okay, they get us up and off the ground, so to speak.
所以我们可以看看这两个驱动器是如何让我们起身并离开地面的，可以这么说。
But the question is, do they explain everything, right?
但问题是，他们能解释一切吗？
And it's a very important question because if they explain everything, then there's not room for behaviors and choices that are beyond the self, right?
这是一个非常重要的问题，因为如果他们解释了一切，那么就没有超越自我的行为和选择的空间，对吗？
There's not an explanation for the person who-- I'll give you an example of a person I've taken care of who's just a very strong swimmer, knows how to swim, has swam throughout his life, who was in a place, I saw video of it, where there had been a hurricane and the waves were so frightening.
我给你举一个我照顾过的人的例子，他是一个非常强壮的游泳运动员，知道如何游泳，一生都在游泳，他在一个地方，我看到了它的视频，那里发生了飓风，海浪非常可怕。
There was just this huge surf, and there were people who had gotten dragged out.
就是有这么大的海浪，有人被拖了出来。
And then you just see him.
然后你就看到了他。
He runs into the water, right?
他跑进水里了，对吗？
He runs in and he goes, and he was really at risk.
他跑进去又走，他确实处于危险之中。
He needed to be saved himself, but he saved them.
他自己需要被拯救，但他拯救了他们。
And I do not believe you can explain that through these drives.
我不相信你可以通过这些驱动力来解释这一点。
I don't think you can say, "Well, he was aggressive.
我不认为你可以说：“嗯，他很有攻击性。
He wanted to go and do something that was imposing himself on the world," or, "He got pleasure in thinking, 'Ah, I'm strong enough to go do this.'" I think we're really gyrating.
他想做一些让自己强加于世界的事情，”或者，“他很高兴地想，‘啊，我足够强大，可以去做这件事。’”我认为我们真的在旋转。
We're contorting ourselves, right, in order to explain it that way.
为了以这种方式解释它，我们正在扭曲自己，对吧。
If we think there's a goodness in that man's heart, like I know there's a goodness in that man's heart.
如果我们认为那个人心里有善良，就像我知道那个人心里有善良一样。
I know him, right?
我认识他，对吗？
And that goodness seizes him in the moment and he knows that maybe he can save them.
那一刻，善良抓住了他，他知道也许他可以拯救他们。
Maybe he can't.
也许他不能。
He's not sure, but maybe he can.
他不确定，但也许他可以。
So the next thing you know, he's in the water.
所以接下来你知道的，他就在水里了。
And I think things like the love and nurturing of other people, of children, love and nurturing of animals, of plants, right?
我认为诸如对其他人、孩子的爱和养育，对动物、植物的爱和养育之类的事情，对吧？
There are things inside of us that we can't explain with those two drives.
我们内心的某些东西是无法用这两种驱动力来解释的。
And I think they have led to a very sort of darker way of just conceiving of humans.
我认为它们导致了一种非常黑暗的人类构想方式。
I think it's a reason why now, you look at us in the modern day and age, we come at humans through the lens of pathology, right?
我认为这就是为什么现在，你看看当今时代的我们，我们通过病理学的镜头来看待人类，对吗？
There's a very, very thick book that if a person is assessing another person, is thinking about, "Okay, what numbers in that book apply?" right?
有一本非常非常厚的书，如果一个人在评估另一个人时，他会想：“好吧，那本书中的哪些数字适用？”正确的？
Which is like that's not the way to go about understanding humans.
这似乎不是理解人类的方式。
And I think if we just think there are those two drives, we're not doing justice to humans, right?
我认为如果我们只认为存在这两种驱动力，我们就没有公平对待人类，对吗？
One, I think it's not true.
第一，我认为这不是真的。
I think it's evident that it's not true.
我认为很明显这不是真的。
And then if we're framing it in a way that's not true, we are not appropriately respectful of humans.
如果我们以不真实的方式来描述它，我们就没有适当地尊重人类。
And if we come from what I believe to be the truth, that there is a generative drive in us, a drive for the beyond self, a drive to make things better, whether it has anything really directly to do with me or not.
如果我们来自于我所相信的真理，那就是我们内心有一种生成的动力，一种超越自我的动力，一种让事情变得更好的动力，无论它是否真的与我有直接关系。
And as with the other drives, there can be more or less in people, a combination of nature and nurture.
与其他驱动力一样，人身上或多或少都有先天和后天的结合。
What genetically is in us, a predisposition, based upon the genetic lineage that comes down to us and the recombination, and now we're a unique person with a unique set of drives, but they are impacted by the genetics, and then they're impacted by life experience, so more strongly formative life experience, right?
我们身上的基因是什么，一种倾向，基于遗传谱系和重组，现在我们是一个独特的人，拥有一套独特的驱动力，但它们受到遗传的影响，然后它们受到生活经历的影响，因此更强烈地形成生活经历，对吗？
So the younger the person, the deeper the impact of events, say, of nurturing versus abuse, right, on the array, on the relative weighting of drives within people.
因此，人越年轻，事件的影响就越大，例如，养育与虐待，对数组，对人们内部驱动力的相对权重的影响。
But ultimately, we get to these three drives and how they're functioning in a person being a way of understanding and assessing how healthy or not healthy the person is.
但最终，我们会了解这三种驱动力以及它们如何在人体内发挥作用，从而成为理解和评估人健康或不健康的一种方式。
And then we look back to those 10 cupboards, right, for the answers.
然后我们回头看看那 10 个橱柜，对吧，寻找答案。
If we're finding things that we don't like, those drives are out of balance, and here are the problems they're causing.
如果我们发现一些我们不喜欢的东西，那么这些驱动器就会失去平衡，这就是它们引起的问题。
So very concrete issues, right, of problems in people's lives.
这是非常具体的问题，对吧，人们生活中的问题。
We can look and see where is that out of balance, and if it's out of balance, there's something in those pillars that are not in the right place.
我们可以看看哪里不平衡，如果不平衡，那么这些支柱中就有一些东西不在正确的位置。
We can then go back and look in all those cupboards for like, oh, where do we dig to find the answer, right?
然后我们可以回去查看所有这些橱柜，哦，我们在哪里挖掘才能找到答案，对吗？
We learn things.
我们学习东西。
We bring things more into balance, right?
我们让事情更加平衡，对吗？
So the pillars are in a healthier place, and then what sits on top of it is, you used the word geyser, right?
所以柱子是在一个更健康的地方，然后在它上面的是，你用了间歇泉这个词，对吗？
The geyser that then comes up and floats everything on top of it can do that in a healthy way.
然后间歇泉出现并将所有东西漂浮在其顶部，可以以健康的方式做到这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
During episode one, we touched on some of the similarities between understanding the self and building towards a healthy or healthiest version of self-
在第一集中，我们谈到了理解自我和建立健康或最健康的自我版本之间的一些相似之处。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
where agency and gratitude are the states that are being expressed.
其中所表达的是代理和感激之情。
And one of the themes there was this idea, people perhaps want to be healthy so that they live a long time, but presumably, they also want to be healthy so that they can walk up flights of stairs, pick up their kids, move objects, not get injured, perhaps even do sport or, and of Of course, some people want to be healthy for aesthetic reasons as well.
主题之一是这样的想法，人们也许希望保持健康，以便活得长久，但想必，他们也希望保持健康，以便能够走楼梯、接孩子、移动物体、不受伤，甚至可能做运动，当然，有些人也出于审美原因希望保持健康。
And if we were having a discussion about physical health, we could address the major pillars there, which were items within the cupboard.
如果我们讨论身体健康，我们可以解决那里的主要支柱，即橱柜中的物品。
Most people want some ability to have endurance or stamina, to walk some distance or maybe even run some distance.
大多数人都希望有一定的耐力或耐力，能够走一段距离，甚至跑一段距离。
As I mentioned before, walk up a flight of stairs, have some strength, some degree of flexibility, certainly some mobility, maybe even dynamic mobility, et cetera.
正如我之前提到的，走上一段楼梯，要有一定的力量，一定程度的灵活性，当然还有一定的灵活性，甚至可能是动态的灵活性，等等。
And in order to address those or improve upon those, they could look in those cupboards and say, well, how much running, swimming, long-form cardiovascular exercise am I doing per week?
为了解决这些问题或改进这些问题，他们可以查看那些橱柜并说，我每周做了多少跑步、游泳、长期心血管运动？
How many steps am I taking per day?
我每天走多少步？
How many times a week do I lift objects that are slightly heavier than is comfortable for me to lift, et cetera?
我每周会举起多少次稍微重于我能舒适举起的物体等等？
It's very tangible, very concrete.
这是非常有形的、非常具体的。
Here you're making the psyche and the self and mental health very much concrete in some of the same ways, saying there are 10 cupboards that one can look in.
在这里，你用一些相同的方式使心灵、自我和心理健康变得非常具体，说有 10 个橱柜可供人们查看。
And these drives, as you refer to them, as generative drive, aggressive drive, and pleasure drive, I think you'll probably tell us in a few minutes, can be expressed to varying degrees in different people and how that shows up and what that looks like.
正如您所提到的，这些驱动力，即生成性驱动力、攻击性驱动力和快乐驱动力，我想您可能会在几分钟内告诉我们，这些驱动力可以在不同的人身上以不同的程度表达，以及它们如何表现出来以及是什么样子。
And I just want to frame this in people's minds as very similar to addressing whether or not, okay, if somebody can run very long distances, but they're always having aches and pains, or they feel weak, or they are weak.
我只是想在人们的脑海中将这个问题描述为非常类似于解决是否有人可以跑很长的距离，但他们总是感到疼痛，或者他们感到虚弱，或者他们很虚弱。
There are good reasons for that.
这是有充分理由的。
They're overemphasizing one form of exercise.
他们过分强调一种锻炼形式。
The expression is more along the lines of endurance and stamina, not strength.
这个表达更多的是耐力和耐力，而不是力量。
Or vice versa, the power lifter who can lift 750 pounds from the floor in a deadlift, but walks up two flights of stairs and is belly breathing and has to stop at the top of the stairs.
反之亦然，举重运动员可以通过硬拉从地板上举起 750 磅的重量，但要走两层楼梯并且采用腹式呼吸，必须在楼梯顶部停下来。
It's obvious in the physical realm.
这在物理领域是显而易见的。
It's slightly more cryptic in the psychological realm, but here it's becoming concrete for us.
它在心理领域稍微神秘一些，但在这里它对我们来说变得具体了。
So I think it's very interesting and very ironic, right?
所以我觉得这很有趣，也很讽刺，对吧？
So the field that I'm in, the field of psychiatry, has historically wanted to be sort of part of the rest of medicine or like the rest of medicine, and what I believe it's ended up doing is glorifying a taxonomy, right?
所以我所在的领域，精神病学领域，历史上一直想成为其他医学的一部分，或者像其他医学一样，我相信它最终所做的是美化分类法，对吗？
Glorifying a category mechanism of understanding human beings.
颂扬理解人类的范畴机制。
So in the way that if I'm practicing general medicine and you come in and you're congested and I determine like, oh, you have bacterial sinusitis, right?
因此，如果我从事普通医学工作，而您进来时感到鼻塞，我会确定，哦，您患有细菌性鼻窦炎，对吗？
So now I've made a diagnosis and now I know what I'm going to do about that, right?
现在我已经做出了诊断，现在我知道我该怎么做，对吗？
So, okay, I'm going to prescribe an antibiotic.
所以，好吧，我要开抗生素。
Now the thought comes in of what antibiotic, right?
现在想到什么抗生素，对吗？
But to identify sinusitis, now you need an antibiotic is kind of how medicine works, right?
但是要识别鼻窦炎，现在您需要抗生素，这就是药物的作用原理，对吗？
So the thought was psychiatry is going to categorize everything, right?
所以认为精神病学将对一切进行分类，对吗？
So we'd say, okay, I've listened to you.
所以我们会说，好吧，我听了你的。
Like, ah, I know your number or your numbers, right?
就像，啊，我知道你的号码或你的号码，对吗？
And then once I've given you the numbers, now I know what to do.
一旦我给了你数字，我就知道该怎么做了。
I prescribe this medicine, that medicine, these many sessions of a certain kind of psychotherapy.
我开这种药、那种药，多次进行某种心理治疗。
And that doesn't work, right?
但这行不通，对吧？
It doesn't work in mental health.
它对心理健康不起作用。
It may.
可能会。
It's not that it never works, but if you're going to try and understand people, it's different.
这并不是说它永远不起作用，但如果你想尝试并理解人们，那就不同了。
The problem of self.
自身的问题。
If I have a lack of confidence in one area of life and not in others, right, that's a significant issue.
如果我对生活的某个领域缺乏信心，而对其他领域则缺乏信心，那么这就是一个重大问题。
It is not like bacterial sinusitis, where then, okay, arrow goes to prescribe antibiotic.
它不像细菌性鼻窦炎，好吧，箭头指向开抗生素。
And I think what is ironic is that this route of approach actually does bring psychiatry or mental health into line with the rest of medicine, right?
我认为具有讽刺意味的是，这种方法实际上确实使精神病学或心理健康与其他医学保持一致，对吗？
Which is why you can make that parallel and it fits well when you're making the parallel to physical health and to, I want to be healthy.
这就是为什么你可以将其与身体健康进行类比，并且当你将其与身体健康和“我想要健康”进行类比时，它非常适合。
Okay, what are the components of that?
好吧，它的组成部分是什么？
What am I doing to achieve that?
我正在做什么来实现这一目标？
If something's not the way I want, let me go back and look at those components.
如果有些东西不是我想要的，让我回去看看那些组件。
It may be because it's more tangible, it's sort of essentially easier to comprehend, right?
可能是因为它更具体，本质上更容易理解，对吧？
Because it's more concrete.
因为它更具体。
But I don't, in a sense, see it as cryptic, just less obvious, right?
但从某种意义上说，我并不认为它是神秘的，只是不太明显，对吧？
But if we go and we look at it and we say, "Oh, that really makes sense," right?
但如果我们去看看它，我们会说，“哦，这确实有道理，”对吗？
And in a sense, it makes sense that it makes sense, right?
而且从某种意义上来说，这是有道理的，对吧？
If there's a mechanism of understanding that applies to lots and lots of things that are more concrete, why would a similar kind of mechanism, like understand what the components are, understand what's built on top of them.
如果有一种理解机制适用于很多很多更具体的事物，为什么会有类似的机制，比如理解组件是什么，理解在它们之上构建的内容。
This, I believe, is how psychiatry actually fits with the rest of medicine, not by glorifying a taxonomy, but by coming through the lens of understanding.
我相信，这就是精神病学与其他医学的实际配合方式，不是通过美化分类法，而是通过理解的视角。
Yeah, I couldn't agree more and I think that what's so reassuring is that both in terms of creating physical health across the various domains of heart health, lung health, endurance, strength, et cetera, cognitive health, as well as mental health is verbs.
是的，我完全同意，我认为令人放心的是，在心脏健康、肺部健康、耐力、力量等各个领域创造身体健康方面，认知健康以及心理健康都是动词。
It comes back to action items that we each and all should engage in in order to arrive at the states and ways of being that we all want to be in, right?
这又回到了我们每个人都应该参与的行动项目，以便达到我们都想要的状态和存在方式，对吧？
We want to feel healthy, look healthy, et cetera.
我们想要感觉健康、看起来健康等等。
We want to be happy, right?
我们想要幸福，对吗？
I know very few people who don't want to be happy.
我认识很少有人不想快乐。
Certainly there are people who give up, but we'll talk about that today and routes out of that.
当然有人会放弃，但我们今天会讨论这个问题以及摆脱这个问题的方法。
But at the end of the day, it's all about looking in those bins, asking specific questions, and then moving forward in specific actions to get to the place of empowerment, humility, agency, gratitude, peace, contentment, delight, et cetera.
但归根结底，这一切都是关于查看这些垃圾箱，提出具体问题，然后采取具体行动，以达到赋权、谦逊、代理、感恩、和平、满足、喜悦等的境界。
As opposed to simply using words and understanding to arrive at insight and then stopping there and expecting everything to change.
而不是简单地使用语言和理解来获得洞察力，然后停在那里并期望一切都会改变。
And I think that's where a lot of people are confused about psychology, therapy, and psychiatry and as you mentioned, psychiatry has its own- ...
我认为这就是很多人对心理学、治疗和精神病学感到困惑的地方，正如你提到的，精神病学有自己的——......
shadows, if you will, within it where the use of drugs, which certainly can be very useful-
阴影，如果你愿意的话，在它里面使用药物，这肯定是非常有用的——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
even life-saving.
甚至救命。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oftentimes is seen as a fix-all that somehow could reorder everything within the cupboards and make the recipe just right, when in fact, as we'll talk about today, that is generally not the best route.
通常，这被视为一种解决所有问题的方法，可以以某种方式重新排序橱柜内的所有东西，并使食谱恰到好处，而事实上，正如我们今天要讨论的那样，这通常不是最好的路线。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But again, with the understanding that drugs can be very powerful tools.
但再次强调，药物可以成为非常强大的工具。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yes.
是的。
They can play a role.
他们可以发挥作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
But it's important we understand what role is appropriate for them, and that's where we often go astray.
但重要的是我们要了解什么角色适合他们，而这正是我们经常误入歧途的地方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, AG1.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 AG1。
AG1 is a vitamin, mineral, probiotic drink that meets all of your foundational nutrition needs.
AG1 是一种维生素、矿物质、益生菌饮料，可满足您所有的基本营养需求。
I started taking AG1 way back in 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring the podcast.
我早在 2012 年就开始观看 AG1，所以我很高兴他们赞助这个播客。
The reason I started taking AG1, and the reason I still take AG1 once or generally twice per day, is that it's the easiest way for me to ensure that I'm getting all of the vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and fiber that I need in my diet.
我开始服用 AG1 的原因，以及我仍然每天服用一次或一般两次 AG1 的原因是，这对我来说是确保我从饮食中获取所需的所有维生素、矿物质、益生菌和纤维的最简单方法。
Now, of course, it's essential to get proper nutrition from whole foods, but most people, including myself, find it hard to get enough servings of fruits and vegetables each day, and especially to get enough prebiotics and probiotics to ensure gut health.
当然，现在从天然食品中获取适当的营养是至关重要的，但大多数人，包括我自己，发现每天很难获得足够的水果和蔬菜，尤其是获得足够的益生元和益生菌以确保肠道健康。
As you may know, your gut contains trillions of little microbiota, the so-called gut microbiome, which establishes critical connections with other organs of your body to enhance brain health, as well as to support your immune system and other aspects that relate to mental and physical health.
您可能知道，您的肠道含有数万亿个小微生物群，即所谓的肠道微生物组，它与您身体的其他器官建立了重要的联系，以增强大脑健康，并支持您的免疫系统和与身心健康相关的其他方面。
One of the most common questions I get is, if you were to take just one supplement, which supplement would that be?
我最常见的问题之一是，如果您只服用一种补充剂，会选择哪种补充剂？
And my answer is always AG1.
我的答案始终是AG1。
Because by taking AG1, I'm able to ensure that I'm getting all of the vitamins, minerals, and probiotics that I need to enhance my mental health, physical health, and performance.
因为通过服用 AG1，我能够确保获得增强心理健康、身体健康和表现所需的所有维生素、矿物质和益生菌。
If you'd like to try AG1, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1，请访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 以获得特别优惠。
They'll give you five free travel packs, and they'll give you a year's supply of vitamin D3 K2.
他们会为您提供五个免费旅行包，并为您提供一年的维生素 D3 K2。
Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman to claim this special offer.
再次强调，请通过 Drinkag1.com/huberman 领取此特别优惠。
So as we move forward here in defining and helping people gain, for lack of a better word, agency over their own mental health and self-understanding and defining for them what action items to take.
因此，当我们在此向前迈进时，我们无法找到更好的词来定义和帮助人们获得对自己心理健康和自我理解的代理权，并为他们定义要采取的行动项目。
I'd like to ask you about some of the things that I observe in the world and hear a lot about, in particular from the audience of this podcast.
我想问你一些我在世界上观察到的和听到的很多事情，特别是从这个播客的观众那里听到的事情。
It's obvious to me that people vary in terms of their level of aggressive drive, pleasure drive, and presumably generative drive as well.
对我来说，很明显，人们的攻击性内驱力、快乐性内驱力以及可能的生成性内驱力的水平各不相同。
One common question is, how do I become more motivated, right?
一个常见的问题是，我如何变得更有动力，对吧？
And of course, that opens up a bunch of other questions like, are people afraid of failure, and that's why they're not motivated?
当然，这引发了一系列其他问题，例如，人们是否害怕失败，这就是他们没有动力的原因？
Are people afraid of success?
人们害怕成功吗？
Is that why they're not motivated?
这就是他们没有动力的原因吗？
Is there some underlying childhood trauma or unconscious process that's driving that fear, and so on.
是否有一些潜在的童年创伤或无意识过程导致了这种恐惧，等等。
But if we were to take the psychiatrist's perspective, your perspective, if someone comes to you and says, "I just don't really feel like trying.
但如果我们站在精神科医生的角度，你的角度，如果有人来找你说：“我只是不想尝试。
School's hard.
学校很难。
School loans are excessive." Which is true, by the way.
学校贷款过多。”顺便说一下，这是真的。
"It's not even clear that with a degree I can do much," or, "I had a series of failures in the work domain or in the relationship domain," and they're just feeling weighed down as if it's not worth trying.
“甚至不清楚凭借学位我能做多少事情”，或者“我在工作领域或关系领域经历了一系列失败”，他们只是感到沉重，好像不值得尝试。
What does that tell you in terms of where to look?
这告诉您在哪里寻找什么？
And what does that tell you in terms of their drives?
这对他们的驱动力有何启示？
Do we conclude something about their innate level of aggressive drive or their pleasure drive or their generative drive?
我们是否可以对他们与生俱来的攻击性内驱力、快乐性内驱力或生成性内驱力水平做出一些结论？
I think there are many such people out there, and then we'll consider some other kind of phenotypic examples.
我认为这样的人有很多，然后我们会考虑一些其他类型的表型例子。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
So it's a great example because any good clinician could hear that story and have thoughts about it that could and would, hopefully, be helpful.
所以这是一个很好的例子，因为任何优秀的临床医生都可以听到这个故事并对此有一些想法，这些想法可能而且希望会有所帮助。
Without necessarily referring to drives.
不一定指驱动器。
So I think you can anchor any set of assessments, any evaluation, any attempt at understanding to drives.
所以我认为你可以锚定任何一组评估、任何评估、任何理解驱动力的尝试。
But it doesn't have to be that way.
但事实并非一定如此。
So for example, you might ask that person more questions about what they're doing, how they spend their time, because you're telling me about someone who's not getting enjoyment or gratification out of anything.
例如，你可能会问那个人更多关于他们在做什么、如何度过时间的问题，因为你告诉我的是一个没有从任何事情中获得乐趣或满足的人。
And that then becomes of interest to me.
然后我就对此感兴趣了。
Is there something this person does enjoy?
这个人有什么喜欢的东西吗？
Or something they'd rather be doing?
或者他们更愿意做的事情？
Did they go to college and take on a bunch of loans because they thought that was better because they thought they were going to do something that now they actually don't want to do?
他们上大学并借了一大堆贷款，是因为他们认为这样更好，因为他们认为自己要做一些现在实际上不想做的事情吗？
Or that opportunity isn't there and now they're frustrated.
或者那个机会不存在，现在他们感到沮丧。
What is inside this person that might seem different than that?
这个人的内心有什么看起来与此不同的地方？
And again, the answers could be complicated.
同样，答案可能很复杂。
It could be maybe that person enjoys what they're doing, but the cost of living where they are is so high that they still feel miserable.
也许这个人喜欢他们正在做的事情，但他们所在的地方的生活成本是如此之高，以至于他们仍然感到痛苦。
There's a sense of privation, and then that gets back-mapped to, like, I'm not getting any pleasure out of anything.
有一种匮乏感，然后这种感觉又回到了，就像，我没有从任何事情中得到任何乐趣。
So the answer could be as simple as you strategize with the person of, for example, does a person like that move to a different area?
因此，答案可能很简单，就像您与此人制定策略一样，例如，这样的人是否会搬到另一个区域？
So there's so many ways of looking at this and so many ways of understanding this, but you're describing someone to me who is kind of really complaining that nothing is feeling good.
因此，看待这个问题的方法有很多，理解这个问题的方法也有很多，但你向我描述的这个人确实在抱怨没有什么感觉很好。
Nothing's providing a sense of enjoyment or of pleasure.
没有什么能提供享受或快乐的感觉。
So I would probably be interested in that first and think maybe the pleasure drive is higher than what's being fulfilled.
所以我可能首先对此感兴趣，并认为快乐的驱动力可能高于所实现的目标。
Maybe the pleasure drive is low, and that's an issue in and of itself.
也许快乐驱动力较低，这本身就是一个问题。
But we sort of learn those things.
但我们有点学习这些东西。
Maybe the aggressive drive is low, and if that person just put a little more energy into it, they could be in a different place.
也许攻击性较低，如果这个人多投入一点精力，他们可能会处于不同的境地。
So you try and help the person understand themselves so that you can make change.
所以你尝试帮助这个人了解自己，这样你就可以做出改变。
And again, that understanding doesn't have to be anchored to the drives, but I do believe the drives are at the root of all understanding.
再说一遍，这种理解不一定要以驱动力为基础，但我确实相信驱动力是所有理解的根源。
Because if you sit with that person and you talk to that person, then you're going to be able to understand what is Out of balance.
因为如果你和那个人坐在一起并与那个人交谈，那么你将能够理解什么是失衡。
Either in the actual array of the drives or in how they're being experienced.
无论是在实际的驱动器阵列中，还是在它们的体验方式中。
Because again, if you have a high pleasure drive, for example, and it's not gratified, that represents a problem.
因为，例如，如果你有很高的快乐驾驶欲望，但它并不令人满意，那就代表了一个问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
What about people who can experience some pleasure or can keep busy, say, for instance, on social media or playing video games, and I should also say perhaps it's bringing them to a place of peace, contentment, and delight.
那些可以体验一些快乐或可以保持忙碌的人呢，例如，在社交媒体上或玩电子游戏，我还应该说，也许这会让他们进入一个平静、满足和快乐的地方。
But in some sense, it's not really generative.
但从某种意义上说，它并不是真正的生成性。
I'm not going to cast judgment and say that video games and social media are all a waste of time.
我不会做出判断并说电子游戏和社交媒体都是浪费时间。
I'm on social media trying to provide value to people and learnings and I derive value and learnings from other accounts as well.
我在社交媒体上试图为人们提供价值和学习，我也从其他帐户中获得价值和学习。
But there are these milestones, if you will, in life.
但如果你愿意的话，生活中也有这些里程碑。
Not that everyone has to go to college and get married and have a family.
并不是每个人都必须上大学、结婚、组建家庭。
There are a lot of different paths through life that I would consider successful.
我认为人生有很多不同的成功之路。
But in some sense, there are milestones.
但从某种意义上说，这是有里程碑的。
We want to move forward.
我们想要继续前进。
There's this phenomenon nowadays of a lot of young people and so-called failure to launch.
现在很多年轻人都存在这种现象，所谓的失败。
They're not leaving home or they're not finding a vocation.
他们没有离开家，也没有找到职业。
They're not feeling as if they're good at anything or they have the sense that unless you're going to be top 1% in something, it's not worth trying.
他们感觉自己不擅长任何事情，或者认为除非你想在某件事上成为前 1%，否则就不值得尝试。
But they can still find what most people would describe as pleasures.
但他们仍然可以找到大多数人所说的快乐。
They enjoy food maybe a little too much.
他们对食物的享受可能有点太多了。
They enjoy alcohol maybe a little too much.
他们对酒精的喜爱可能有点太多了。
They enjoy social media or video games maybe a little too much, and I say a little too much because it's providing more or less a sink or a reservoir for their aggressive and pleasure drives that's not moving them forward in the standard milestones of life.
他们喜欢社交媒体或电子游戏可能有点太多了，我说有点太多了，因为它或多或少为他们的攻击性和快乐驱动力提供了一个水槽或水库，而没有推动他们在人生的标准里程碑中前进。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I hear about that a lot.
我经常听到这样的事。
I see that a lot.
我经常看到这样的情况。
So it's a slightly more complex phenotype than described before as just simply the amotivated or non-motivated person.
因此，这是一种比之前描述的简单的无动力或无动力的人稍微复杂的表型。
But what do you think of the phenotype I just described?
但你觉得我刚才描述的表型怎么样？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Again, because we're unique.
再说一次，因为我们是独一无二的。
Each person is unique, although we fit categories.
每个人都是独一无二的，尽管我们适合类别。
So there are categories a person there could fit that could be different from what I'm saying.
因此，那里的人可能适合的类别可能与我所说的不同。
But I think most people just say on balance, what is most prominent?
但我想大多数人只是权衡一下，什么是最突出的？
I think what is most prominent in that situation is there's something out of balance in the generative drive.
我认为在这种情况下最突出的是生成动力中存在一些不平衡的东西。
And what you see a lot of times is the person has a generative drive in them that's higher than their ability to realize that drive.
你经常看到的是，这个人的生成动力高于他们实现这种动力的能力。
The generative drive then is frustrated.
然后，生成内驱力就会受到挫败。
So I'll give an example.
所以我举一个例子。
And this is a real, true story of a person who had worked very, very hard, gone to school for a long time, and had achieved a very high-paying job, and that was the goal.
这是一个真实的故事，讲述的是一个人非常非常努力地工作，上学很长时间，并获得了一份非常高薪的工作，这就是目标。
It's a prestigious job, it's a high-paying job, and the person for a while was doing quite well at it.
这是一份有声望的工作，一份高薪工作，而且这个人有一段时间做得很好。
And things went relatively rapidly in a negative direction.
事情朝着负面方向发展得相对较快。
So maybe for a little while, the person's doing okay.
所以也许有一段时间，这个人的表现还不错。
Then the person becomes very negligent of themselves and their environment when they're not at the job.
然后，当他们不在工作时，这个人就会变得非常疏忽自己和环境。
So the house is a mess.
所以家里很乱。
Things are dirty.
东西很脏。
The person is wasting time with things.
这个人在事情上浪费时间。
So this is a person who enjoys, it wasn't exactly video games.
所以这是一个喜欢电子游戏的人，但不完全是电子游戏。
Let's say it could have been.
假设可能是这样。
Well, enjoys them to a certain degree and can really gain pleasure and feel good about the time spent.
嗯，在一定程度上享受它们，并且能够真正获得快乐并对所花费的时间感觉良好。
But starts spending too much time.
但开始花费太多时间。
Now, what was pleasurable starts becoming a distraction mechanism.
现在，令人愉快的事情开始变成一种分散注意力的机制。
And then what that transitioned to was overuse of alcohol.
然后转变为过度饮酒。
So now you have either something that is actually destructive and was negative to job performance towards the person.
所以现在你要么遇到了一些实际上具有破坏性的东西，并对这个人的工作表现产生了负面影响。
This wasn't a person who was drinking a lot before, and this is a person who was miserable when they were drinking, or they were sort of wasting their time.
这不是一个以前喝很多酒的人，而是一个喝的时候很痛苦的人，或者说他们有点浪费时间。
And were aware of all of this.
并意识到这一切。
Well, there was a very clear problem, which is that that person had no interest in what they were doing.
嗯，有一个非常明显的问题，那就是那个人对他们所做的事情不感兴趣。
None whatsoever.
一点也没有。
It felt like the majority of waking hours were spent in an automaton-like way, but being awake and aware of the tedium of it, the frustration of it and-
感觉大部分醒着的时间都是以一种类似机器人的方式度过的，但清醒并意识到其中的单调、挫败感和——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The professional side.
专业的一面。
So they-
所以他们——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
essentially had very little intrinsic curiosity or desire to do the job that they were successfully doing.
基本上没有什么内在的好奇心或对完成他们成功完成的工作的渴望。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Which comes out only after exploration, because it seems like, well, what's going on with this person?
这只有在探索之后才会出现，因为看起来，这个人到底怎么了？
This person has a good job and their life was going really, really well and they're doing well financially and is this person trying to now overly indulge themselves?
这个人有一份好工作，他们的生活非常非常好，他们的经济状况也很好，这个人现在是否试图过度放纵自己？
Is that why they're drinking?
这就是他们喝酒的原因吗？
What's going on?
这是怎么回事？
And what you feel is that this person had a strong generative drive, and it wasn't met one little bit by what he was doing, which was creating such frustration inside that the person was either taking himself online or doing something that was punitive and self-injurious.
你的感觉是，这个人有很强的生成动力，而他所做的事情并没有满足这一点，这在内心造成了如此大的挫败感，以至于这个人要么把自己放在网上，要么做一些惩罚性和自残的事情。
And this is a real story.
这是一个真实的故事。
The person exchanged that job for a job that paid a tenth of what the job they had paid.
这个人用原来的工作换了一份工资只有原来工作十分之一的工作。
And the change in the person's life was amazing.
人的生活发生的变化是惊人的。
I didn't know this guy could smile.
我不知道这个家伙还能笑。
He became happy.
他变得快乐了。
He loved what he was doing.
他热爱他所做的事情。
He sold the larger house, bought a smaller house, kept it beautifully.
他卖掉了较大的房子，买了一个较小的房子，并把它保养得很漂亮。
He was happy.
他很高兴。
That's what he needed to be happy because then the generative drive in him, he loved what he was doing, gets enacted.
这就是他快乐所需要的，因为这样他内心的生成动力，他热爱他正在做的事情，就会得到体现。
It gets expressed, and then other things can come then into line.
它被表达出来，然后其他事情就会随之而来。
He's not being overaggressive towards himself and drinking too much because he's saying, "Oh, to hell with you" to the world around him and to himself.
他并没有对自己过度攻击，也没有喝太多酒，因为他是在对周围的世界和自己说：“哦，让你见鬼去吧”。
He's not taking something that serves a purpose in his life.
他所采取的东西对他的生活没有任何意义。
Again, if the example had been video games, it would be like, yeah, great, you enjoy doing that X amount of time and go do that and get gratification from it as opposed to then over-relying on it and then it's not providing gratification.
再说一次，如果这个例子是视频游戏，那就会是，是的，太棒了，你喜欢做那X时间，然后去做，并从中获得满足感，而不是过度依赖它，然后它就不能提供满足感。
It becomes a distraction.
它会让人分心。
So those things came back into balance In his life.
所以这些事情在他的生活中恢复了平衡。
But there had to be the understanding, and I think there's a lot of that in people who have a generative drive in them that they feel is frustrated by a world around them that isn't cooperating.
但必须有一种理解，我认为那些有生成动力的人会因为周围的世界不合作而感到沮丧。
Now, do I think we can understand that and change that in the vast majority of people who are in that place?
现在，我认为我们可以理解这一点并改变那个地方的绝大多数人的情况吗？
Yes, but it has to be looked at first, right?
是的，但是首先得看一下，对吧？
Because it's not always that.
因为情况并非总是如此。
It's just that a lot of the time, right?
很多时候都是这样，对吧？
So it has to be understood, what is it in that person, and then how do you go back to those pillars and look at what's going on that the person is in that place?
所以必须要理解，那个人身上有什么，然后你如何回到那些支柱，看看这个人在那个地方发生了什么？
Because the world can bring us a lot of difficulties, right?
因为这个世界会给我们带来很多困难，对吗？
And that person who now is saddled with a lot more loans than they expect, I have tremendous compassion for that and sympathy for that.
对于那些现在背负着比他们预期多得多的贷款的人，我对此表示极大的同情和同情。
That's real, right?
这是真的，对吧？
So people can be up against a lot of things, and that's just one of them, right?
所以人们可能会遇到很多事情，而这只是其中之一，对吗？
But it doesn't mean that life can't be okay.
但这并不意味着生活不能一帆风顺。
It doesn't mean that.
不是这个意思。
But the person has to feel that there's some way.
但这个人必须感觉到有某种办法。
They have to understand enough about themselves, say, "Okay, this is what this is, and I kind of see what this is and why and how I'm here." And from there, I can start to plot a route to something that is better because, yes, we have our difficulties and we can have a lot of them, right?
他们必须对自己有足够的了解，说：“好吧，这就是这是什么，我有点明白这是什么以及我为什么以及如何在这里。”从那里开始，我可以开始规划一条通往更好的道路，因为，是的，我们有我们的困难，而且我们可以有很多困难，对吗？
But for the vast majority of us, it's not like they're not surmountable.
但对于我们绝大多数人来说，这并不是不可克服的。
We have to just understand them.
我们必须理解它们。
And let's say if that person goes and says, "I'm going to get some help," and they go, and someone says, "Okay, wait, you get 10 sessions of cognitive behavioral therapy." And you try and like how can that person think differently, then they'll feel differently?
假设那个人过去说：“我要去寻求帮助”，然后他们走了，有人说：“好吧，等等，你会接受 10 次认知行为治疗。”你试着想想那个人如何能有不同的想法，然后他们会有不同的感受？
And look, cognitive behavioral therapy has its place, right?
看，认知行为疗法有其一席之地，对吗？
But it's not going to solve that, right?
但这并不能解决这个问题，对吧？
That person needs to understand something about themselves, not redirect their thoughts to better places, right?
那个人需要了解一些关于自己的事情，而不是将他们的想法转向更好的地方，对吧？
So if the person gets a reflex because that reflex works well for the system, right?
那么，如果这个人产生反射是因为该反射对系统运作良好，对吗？
A reflex works well for the system that's treating that person, for the medical system, the insurance system, that person isn't helped one bit, right?
反射对于治疗那个人的系统来说效果很好，对于医疗系统、保险系统来说，那个人一点也没有得到帮助，对吧？
And maybe a medicine can help, right?
也许药物可以有所帮助，对吧？
Maybe a medicine helps to just take down the anxiety and the tension in the person.
也许药物有助于减轻人的焦虑和紧张。
Then the person can sort of think more about it.
然后这个人就可以更多地思考它。
And truly, medicine did help this person because the idea of leaving the job, I'm leaving the prestige, I'm leaving the money.
确实，医学确实帮助了这个人，因为离开工作的想法，我离开了声望，我离开了金钱。
Is that okay to do?
这样做可以吗？
It generated a lot of anxiety, and it helped to kind of bring the temperature down a little bit of that so that he could think about it, engage in therapy, ultimately navigate to where he wanted to be, then we could back away from the medicine.
它产生了很多焦虑，它有助于将温度降低一点，这样他就可以思考它，进行治疗，最终导航到他想去的地方，然后我们就可以摆脱药物了。
So medicine has a role, but if he just got medicine, what are the odds of that helping?
所以药物有一定作用，但如果他刚刚得到药物，有什么帮助的可能性有多大？
Zero, right?
零，对吧？
Because it's not going to make the answers unless somehow the person feels a little bit better and figures it out on their own.
因为除非这个人感觉好一点并自己找出答案，否则它不会给出答案。
It's not how it works, right?
事情不是这样的，对吧？
So medicine has its place, but a kind of therapy that recognizes the limitations of medicine in most situations and is designed to really help the person understand.
因此，医学有其地位，但它是一种认识到医学在大多数情况下的局限性的疗法，旨在真正帮助人们理解。
That's what we need.
这就是我们所需要的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The example you gave is a spectacular one because, as you mentioned, medication had its place.
你给出的例子是一个引人注目的例子，因为正如你所提到的，药物占有一席之地。
Perhaps even redirection of thought, in some sense, had its place.
或许，从某种意义上说，甚至思想的重定向也有其用武之地。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because as I recall, under the pillar of function of self, one of the key items is salience.
因为我记得，在自我功能的支柱下，关键的一项就是显着性。
What we pay attention to internally or externally, what our internal narratives are.
我们关注内部或外部什么，我们的内部叙述是什么。
But in staying with the example of this individual, again, as a phenotypic example for everybody to learn something from, the asking of better questions about oneself is really what leads to the understanding.
但再次以这个人为例，作为每个人都可以学习的表型例子，对自己提出更好的问题确实可以带来理解。
So better forms of inquiry, right?
那么更好的探究形式，对吧？
To me, these better forms of inquiry, better questions are really the cardiovascular exercise, the strength training, the flexibility training, the mobility training, coordination training of physical health just translate to mental health.
对我来说，这些更好的探究形式、更好的问题实际上是心血管锻炼、力量训练、灵活性训练、活动能力训练、身体健康的协调训练，只是转化为心理健康。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
It's so interesting, right?
太有趣了，对吧？
Because if you think about it in the example I gave, both the therapy part through the system, right, the CBT, has a place, right?
因为如果你在我给出的例子中考虑一下，通过系统进行的治疗部分，对吧，CBT，都有一席之地，对吧？
And the medicine part also had a place.
医药部分也占有一席之地。
So both of those things have their role.
所以这两件事都有它们的作用。
But if we build the whole story of this is what this is and this is how you're going to be helped around those things, we don't help that person at all.
但是，如果我们构建整个故事，这就是这是什么，这就是您将如何在这些事情上得到帮助，那么我们根本不会帮助那个人。
In fact, ultimately, if you take on balance, you take all comers, we end up doing harm.
事实上，最终，如果你采取平衡，你就包容所有的人，我们最终会造成伤害。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, in some ways, if we stay with the analogy of physical health, it would be like the person who wants to get in shape and then they get a, I'm not picking on Peloton as a brand, but just a stationary bike.
好吧，在某些方面，如果我们继续用身体健康来类比，就像一个想要保持体形的人，然后他们得到了，我不是选择 Peloton 作为一个品牌，而只是一辆固定自行车。
And they pedal every morning and they lose weight, their blood pressure goes down, they're doing better.
他们每天早上踩踏板，体重减轻，血压下降，表现更好。
But then at some point we know with certainty that if you just do the same form of exercise over and over again, sooner or later you're going to get overuse injuries.
但在某些时候，我们可以肯定地知道，如果你一遍又一遍地进行相同形式的锻炼，迟早你会受到过度使用的伤害。
So then there's the lower back piece and another piece and you become out of balance, right?
那么接下来就是下背部的一块和另一块，你就会失去平衡，对吗？
But I guess this is stealing from the Lance Armstrong book, but it's not about the bike, right?
但我猜这是从兰斯·阿姆斯特朗的书中偷来的，但这与自行车无关，对吧？
It's not about the bike, it's about the elevation of heart rate.
这与自行车无关，而与心率升高有关。
It's about whatever other healthy activities go along with exercising first thing in the morning and all the things that you're not doing as a consequence of exercising in the morning.
它是关于早上第一件事是与锻炼相关的其他健康活动，以及由于早上锻炼而没有做的所有事情。
So it seems to me that these better lines of inquiry as the path to better mental health, a better life, that sit under these pillars of structure of self, function of self, are really the key.
因此，在我看来，这些更好的探究路线作为通往更好的心理健康、更好的生活的道路，位于自我结构、自我功能的这些支柱之下，确实是关键。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
So in this example, right, the parallel that you made is even more dramatic, right?
所以在这个例子中，你所做的类比更加戏剧化，对吗？
It wouldn't be the stationary bike, right?
不会是固定自行车吧？
Because the stationary bike is achieving a lot of ends, right?
因为固定自行车正在实现很多目标，对吗？
It would be more like telling the person, "You should walk more briskly when you're going upstairs." That's a good idea, but that's not going to make the change, right?
这更像是告诉那个人：“你上楼的时候应该走得快一点。”这是个好主意，但这不会带来改变，对吗？
So the idea that some CBT, some medicine makes sense, it's more like that, right?
所以一些 CBT、一些药物的想法是有意义的，它更像是这样，对吧？
It's not that walking more briskly up the stairs isn't a good thing, it's that we can't build the story around your whole health is going to change based upon that.
这并不是说更快地走上楼梯不是一件好事，而是我们不能围绕您的整个健康状况将因此而改变的故事。
And then that's a problem then if the person thinks just walk more briskly up the stairs and you'll be healthier.
如果这个人认为只要更快地走上楼梯，你就会更健康，那就是一个问题了。
Because when it doesn't work, now they've failed.
因为当它不起作用时，他们就失败了。
Right?
正确的？
And this gets used a lot in mental health.
这在心理健康方面被广泛使用。
That person failed this therapy, failed that medicine, right?
那个人失败了这个疗法，那个药物失败了，对吧？
And I think it's so also ironic because that's often what the person internalizes.
我认为这也很讽刺，因为这通常是人们内化的内容。
Well, they failed because we set them up 100% for failure, right?
好吧，他们失败了，因为我们为他们设定了 100% 的失败，对吗？
Because we took things that have their role, at least potentially have their role, and we built the whole story around them because that story is convenient for the systems that are providing the care.
因为我们采取了有其作用的东西，至少有其潜在的作用，并且我们围绕它们构建了整个故事，因为这个故事对于提供护理的系统来说很方便。
It's convenient for the healthcare systems.
这对于医疗保健系统来说很方便。
It's convenient for the insurers.
对保险公司来说很方便。
CBT packages very nicely, and you could see how if you start changing thoughts and how they make you feel, you can get some movement on the surface, even if there's no movement underneath, right?
CBT 的包装非常好，你可以看到，如果你开始改变想法以及它们给你的感觉，你可以在表面上得到一些运动，即使下面没有任何运动，对吗？
And again, I'm not saying CBT is bad, but to see it as the whole answer guarantees failure in so many situations.
再说一遍，我并不是说 CBT 不好，而是将其视为整个答案，在很多情况下注定会失败。
Same thing with the medicine.
药物也一样。
If you build the whole story just because it's convenient, and by and large, medicines are cheaper than people, right?
如果你构建整个故事只是因为它很方便，而且总的来说，药品比人便宜，对吧？
So you can prescribe medicines very reflexively.
所以你可以非常本能地开药。
Psychiatrists with 15 minutes with a patient that they can't then see back for a couple of months.
精神科医生与病人进行了 15 分钟的交谈，然后他们在几个月后才能再次见到病人。
How does that go well?
进展如何？
The answer is it only goes well the way a broken clock is right a couple of times, or twice a day, right?
答案是，只有坏掉的时钟走正几次，或者一天两次，它才会走得顺利，对吗？
Look, sometimes it goes well where it just somehow it works out and that person can do a little bit of therapy in 15 minutes and choose the right medicines.
看，有时事情进展顺利，只是不知何故奏效，那个人可以在 15 分钟内进行一些治疗并选择正确的药物。
But by and large, we do those things because they're convenient for the systems, even though that's why people don't get better like we think they would.
但总的来说，我们做这些事情是因为它们对系统来说很方便，尽管这就是为什么人们不会像我们想象的那样变得更好。
That's why they stay in systems.
这就是他们留在系统中的原因。
That's why they come in and out of emergency rooms.
这就是他们进出急诊室的原因。
That's why they're not able to stop the drugs that end up only being stopped when the person dies.
这就是为什么他们无法停止使用药物，而这些药物最终只有在人死亡时才会停止。
This happens all the time, and we don't stop it because we're coming from a perspective that is so limited.
这种情况一直在发生，我们不会阻止它，因为我们的视角非常有限。
It's not saying, let's take a step back and look, can we really help someone?
这并不是说，让我们退后一步看看，我们真的能帮助别人吗？
Can we really help that person understand?
我们真的能帮助那个人理解吗？
Can we help that person make change?
我们可以帮助那个人做出改变吗？
Which ultimately would be, of course, so much better for the person and so much better for society, but is also better if we just look at bottom line dollars and cents, right?
当然，这最终对个人和社会都会更好，但如果我们只关注底线美元和美分，这也会更好，对吗？
Because the short-term view of it is cheaper today to have a psychiatrist at a 15-minute appointment reflexively prescribe a medicine, that is cheaper today.
因为从短期来看，今天让精神科医生在 15 分钟的预约中本能地开药更便宜，所以今天更便宜。
Is that cheaper across time when that person is utilizing more resources or they're in and out of emergency rooms?
当该人使用更多资源或进出急诊室时，随着时间的推移，这是否会更便宜？
It's so short-sighted, which fits with many ways in how our society works, right?
它是如此短视，这与我们社会运作的许多方式相吻合，对吗？
That we want gratification, and we want gratification rapidly.
我们想要满足，而且我们想要快速得到满足。
That's why a person would accept that their problems could be changed by a medicine, right?
这就是为什么一个人会接受药物可以改变他们的问题，对吗？
We're kind of conditioned that way.
我们就是这样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, and then, of course, there's the cost we don't see, which is that person doesn't get the opportunity to express their generative drive.
好吧，当然，还有我们看不到的成本，那就是这个人没有机会表达他们的生成动力。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the consequence of that is incalculable.
而其后果是难以估量的。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Yes.
是的。
And if we take a step back and we look at that, I think that what we will see is that we have, it's not quite painted ourselves into a corner, but it's like the idea that if there's a beautiful tapestry that's the size of the wall, right, that you can see that only standing back from it.
如果我们退后一步，看看这一点，我想我们会看到的是，我们并没有完全把自己逼到墙角，但这就像这样一个想法，如果有一张美丽的挂毯，它的大小与墙一样，对吧，你只能从它后面站起来才能看到它。
Right?
正确的？
This goes back I think a couple thousand years, this sort of thought and idea, but if you come up too close to it, then you can't see what it means anymore.
我想这种思想和想法可以追溯到几千年前，但如果你离它太近，你就看不到它的含义了。
And we're up so close to it that we're thinking, well, okay, how could one parameter change?
我们已经非常接近它了，以至于我们在想，好吧，一个参数怎么可能改变呢？
And can this person get a 15-minute visit sooner rather than later?
这个人能否尽早得到 15 分钟的拜访？
Or how about this medicine instead of that?
或者用这个药代替那个怎么样？
And then it's like our noses are right up against the tapestry, and we don't see that we're not doing right by individual people a lot of the time, and we're not doing right by society, which then if you stop and think about it, we're not doing right by us.
然后就好像我们的鼻子正对着挂毯，我们没有看到很多时候我们没有正确地对待个人，我们也没有正确地对待社会，如果你停下来想一想，我们就没有正确地对待我们。
Because any one of us could be in that position, and many of us have been in that position, being on the other side of things and really needing help and needing to understand.
因为我们中的任何一个人都可能处于这种境地，而且我们中的许多人都曾处于这种境地，站在事物的另一面，真正需要帮助和理解。
So any of us can be there, so if we're failing a lot of individual people and we're failing the society, it doesn't matter who we are listening to this, ultimately we're failing ourselves.
所以我们任何人都可以在那里，所以如果我们辜负了很多人，辜负了社会，那么无论我们听谁的，最终我们辜负了自己。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge our sponsor, Eight Sleep.
我想短暂休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商“八睡”。
Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity.
August Sleep 生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。
I've spoken many times before on this podcast and elsewhere about the fact that getting a quality night's sleep on a regular basis is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance.
我之前在这个播客和其他地方多次谈到过这样一个事实：定期获得优质的夜间睡眠是心理健康、身体健康和表现的基础。
When we're sleeping well, everything goes better, and when we are not sleeping well or enough, everything in terms of mental health, physical health, and performance gets far worse very quickly.
当我们睡眠良好时，一切都会变得更好，而当我们睡眠不好或睡眠不足时，心理健康、身体健康和表现方面的一切都会很快变得更糟。
One of the key things to getting a great night's sleep is to control the temperature of your sleeping environment, and that's because in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, you need your core body temperature to drop by about one to three degrees.
获得良好睡眠的关键之一是控制睡眠环境的温度，这是因为为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您需要将核心体温下降约一到三度。
And in order to wake up feeling refreshed, you need your core body temperature to increase by about one to three degrees.
为了醒来时感觉神清气爽，您需要将核心体温升高约一到三度。
That all becomes very easy when using an Eight Sleep mattress cover because it allows you to program the temperature of your sleeping environment at the beginning, middle, and towards the end of your night when you wake up.
当使用八睡眠床垫套时，这一切都变得非常容易，因为它允许您在晚上醒来时在开始、中间和结束时对睡眠环境的温度进行编程。
I started sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover over two years ago, and it immediately and persistently improved the quality and depth of my sleep.
两年多前，我开始睡在八睡床罩上，它立即持续地改善了我的睡眠质量和深度。
And as a consequence, I wake up feeling far more refreshed.
结果，我醒来时感觉更加神清气爽。
I have enhanced mood, focus, and alertness throughout the day.
我一整天的心情、注意力和警觉性都得到了增强。
If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, you can go to eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $150 off their Pod 3 cover.
如果您想尝试八睡眠，您可以访问八睡眠.com/huberman，在其 Pod 3 封面上最多可节省 150 美元。
Eight Sleep currently ships in the USA, Canada, UK, select countries in the EU, and Australia.
八睡眠目前在美国、加拿大、英国、欧盟部分国家和澳大利亚发货。
Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman.
再说一遍，这是八睡眠.com/huberman。
Let's therefore talk about what does work.
因此，让我们来谈谈什么是有效的。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And again, placing on the shelf the fact that medications can help and CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy, can help, but they are just but two components of a much larger picture.
再次强调，药物可以提供帮助，CBT（认知行为疗法）也可以提供帮助，但它们只是更大图景的两个组成部分。
The map that we described briefly at the beginning of today's episode, and that is, by the way, available as a downloadable PDF in the show note captions if people want to look at it visually, and that was described in a lot of detail in episode one, which I hope people will Take the time to listen to because it's so rich with depth of understanding, and I'm certain everyone will learn a ton about themselves and others simply by listening to your words.
我们在今天这一集开始时简要描述的地图，顺便说一下，如果人们想直观地查看它，可以在节目注释标题中以可下载的 PDF 形式获得，并且在第一集中详细描述了它，我希望人们花时间聆听，因为它的理解非常丰富，我相信每个人只要听你的话就会对自己和他人有很多了解。
I'm absolutely certain of that.
我对此绝对确定。
That map provides essentially a description of the bins, the cupboards to look in to arrive at better answers and even the sorts of questions that one might ask.
该地图本质上提供了对垃圾箱、橱柜的描述，以找到更好的答案，甚至人们可能会问的各种问题。
If we could just talk about that in the context of the example that you gave of this person who made this really incredible choice to move away from this higher-paying job.
如果我们能以你举的例子来讨论这一点，这个人做出了这个令人难以置信的选择，放弃了这份高薪工作。
They were overindulging in certain maladaptive behaviors.
他们过度沉迷于某些适应不良的行为。
And again, we will use this example, but this example is but one of an infinite number of examples that we could use of a person who's in a struggle.
我们将再次使用这个例子，但是这个例子只是我们可以使用的无数例子之一，我们可以使用一个处于挣扎中的人。
They're doing something that's not working for them, and they're also not doing things that they know they ought to be doing.
他们正在做一些对他们来说不起作用的事情，而且他们也没有做他们知道自己应该做的事情。
Okay?
好的？
This is important for people to understand because there are going to be people out there that are thinking, "Oh, this poor guy, he's making tons of money.
这对人们理解很重要，因为有人会想，“哦，这个可怜的家伙，他赚了很多钱。
Poor him." But he was experiencing deep-
可怜的他。”但他正在经历深刻的——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
He was miserable
他很痛苦
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
lack of satisfaction.
缺乏满足感。
So it could've been the reverse example, like the person isn't in a job that brings about enough wealth for them to thrive-
所以这可能是相反的例子，就像这个人的工作没有给他们带来足够的财富让他们茁壮成长一样——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because there are financial realities to life.
因为生活中有财务现实。
So it's just one example, right?
所以这只是一个例子，对吧？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it's a good one, I think, because the person left the money.
但我认为这是一件好事，因为那个人留下了钱。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
So it's like, well, what would make you leave that, right?
所以这就像是，好吧，什么会让你离开它，对吗？
And he says, well, what would make you leave that is if you're miserable in the situation with that and you're happy in the situation without it.
他说，好吧，如果你在这种情况下感到痛苦，而在没有这种情况下你很高兴，那么你就会离开。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
So it's about leaving misery and finding happiness.
所以这是关于离开痛苦并寻找幸福。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes.
是的。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
That's-
那是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So if you'd be willing to share with us a little bit of your mindset during those sessions, meaning the sorts of questions you asked him about the structure of his self or to reveal the structure of his self and the function of his self that allowed the both of you to eventually set him down this far better course.
因此，如果你愿意在这些会议期间与我们分享一些你的心态，也就是说你问他关于他的自我结构的问题，或者揭示他的自我结构和他的自我功能，这些问题让你们俩最终让他走上了这条更好的道路。
What's better than moving away from frustration and overindulgence and maladaptive behavior to deep satisfaction, peace, contentment, and delight, and to become a generative human being?
还有什么比摆脱沮丧、过度放纵和适应不良的行为，获得深深的满足、平和、满足和喜悦，并成为一个富有创造力的人更好的呢？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
So we can look in each of those 10 cabinets, right?
那么我们可以分别查看这 10 个柜子，对吗？
So let's say we look in the unconscious mind cabinet.
假设我们在无意识的思维柜中寻找。
There's not much there, right?
那里没有太多东西，对吧？
When the person was growing up, it was very clear that having more money and having a job that impressed people was an important thing.
当一个人长大后，很明显拥有更多的钱和拥有一份让人印象深刻的工作是很重要的事情。
He internalizes some of it, so some of it's unconscious, but by and large, he's aware of it, right?
他内化了一些，所以有些是无意识的，但总的来说，他是意识到的，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then that was revealed to you how?
然后是如何向你透露的？
You would ask him a question about like tell me about your upbringing, and he would say, "Yeah, money was important to my family, but I always felt like we had enough." That he wasn't super wealthy, but had enough.
你会问他一个问题，比如告诉我你的成长经历，他会说，“是的，钱对我的家庭很重要，但我总觉得我们已经足够了。”他虽然不是超级富有，但已经足够了。
And so when you say there wasn't a lot there, do you mean that there was no kind of X marks the spot or blinking red light like whoa, there's something really in his unconscious mind that's in his way?
所以当你说那里没有太多东西时，你的意思是没有那种X标记的地方或闪烁的红灯，比如哇，在他的潜意识里真的有什么东西挡住了他的路？
Do I have that right?
我有这个权利吗？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Well, more because it was conscious, right?
嗯，更多的是因为它是有意识的，对吧？
So he was aware that it was very much beat into him, right?
所以他知道他受到了很大的打击，对吧？
This is the only way to be okay, right?
这是唯一的办法，对吗？
Is to have a prestigious job that makes a lot of money, right?
就是拥有一份能赚很多钱的有声望的工作，对吗？
But he's aware of it.
但他知道这一点。
If he weren't aware of it, then we have to bring that to light, right?
如果他不知道，那么我们就必须揭露这一点，对吗？
But he was aware.
但他知道。
He's like, "Look, it has a big impact on me.
他说：“看，这对我影响很大。
It makes it hard to step away.
这让人很难离开。
I know I don't really care that much about the money, but I also kind of do." So he's-
我知道我并不是真的那么在乎钱，但我也有点在乎。”所以他是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
I always say money can't buy happiness, but it certainly can buffer certain stressors in life.
我总是说金钱买不到幸福，但它确实可以缓冲生活中的某些压力。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, nobody sometimes you hear people who have a lot of money saying like, "Money can't buy happiness" because there are a lot of miserable rich people.
我的意思是，有时你会听到有很多钱的人说“金钱买不到幸福”，因为有很多悲惨的富人。
But it's like it's very different to have two night nurses to take care of a baby than to be the person who has to stay up all night taking care of a kid.
但这就像有两个夜间护士来照顾婴儿与必须熬夜照顾孩子的人有很大不同。
Or a single mother versus a mother that has a partner who's willing to pitch in.
或者是单身母亲与有愿意参与的伴侣的母亲。
You just can't compare.
你就是无法比较。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
And while that's absolutely true, in this case, we're just looking at money as money, like as an endpoint, right?
虽然这是绝对正确的，但在这种情况下，我们只是将金钱视为金钱，就像作为一个端点，对吧？
The idea that no matter what, how secure and safe, is more money better, right?
不管怎样，无论多么安全，钱越多越好，对吗？
And he had an intrinsic overvalue of that, right?
他对此有一种内在的高估，对吗？
So it made it harder to step away from it because he was overvaluing it.
因此，离开它变得更加困难，因为他高估了它。
He knew he was overvaluing it, just in and of itself, not even for what it gets you, right, but for the psychological meaning of it.
他知道他高估了它本身，甚至不是因为它能给你带来什么，对吧，而是因为它的心理意义。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right?
对吗？
Then we look at his defensive structures.
然后我们看看他的防守结构。
If we look in that cupboard, you see that they've really shifted, right?
如果我们看看那个橱柜，你会发现它们真的变了，对吗？
They shifted from healthy places.
他们从健康的地方转移过来。
Now they're sort of twisted and distorted, and he's doing a lot of denial, a lot of avoidance, a lot of rationalization, right?
现在他们有点扭曲和扭曲，而他做了很多否认，很多回避，很多合理化，对吗？
He's enacting a lot of aggression towards himself, and he's doing a lot of projecting, right?
他对自己施加了很多攻击性，并且做了很多投射，对吗？
He's harming himself with the alcohol.
他用酒精伤害了自己。
He's punishing himself.
他这是在惩罚自己。
So his defensive structure, it can be healthy.
所以他的防守结构可以是健康的。
We know that because it was healthier, right?
我们知道这一点是因为它更健康，对吗？
But then we see that it is twisted.
但后来我们发现它是扭曲的。
So we learn a lot from that, right?
所以我们从中学到了很多东西，对吗？
A lot is conscious in this person.
这个人有很多意识。
The defensive structure can be healthy because it was healthy, but it's-
防御结构可以很健康，因为它很健康，但它-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Eventually it was healthy.
最终它是健康的。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Well, it was healthy before.
嗯，以前很健康。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
It was healthy before, so you know that it can be healthy again, right?
以前很健康，所以你知道它可以再次健康，对吗？
He has it in him to have healthy defenses.
他有能力拥有健康的防守。
They just started getting away from him as he felt less and less satisfied with his job and more and more angry with himself and more and more miserable.
当他对自己的工作越来越不满意，对自己越来越生气，越来越痛苦时，他们就开始远离他。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is a really key point for me and everyone else to understand.
这是我和其他人都需要理解的一个非常关键的点。
Throughout the years of high school and college and friends and things of that sort, I would hear this, "I used to be really good at fitness," or I used to...
在高中、大学、朋友以及诸如此类的事情中，我会听到这样的话，“我曾经非常擅长健身”，或者我曾经……
If I had a dollar for every time someone said, "You should have seen me in high school." Like the person-
如果每次有人说“你应该在高中时见过我”，我就能得到一美元。就像这个人一样——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
who lets themself go, and arguably is very busy with professional duties and family duties, and you can understand why their time is more compressed than it was when they were in high school.
他们放飞自我，可以说非常忙于职业职责和家庭职责，你可以理解为什么他们的时间比高中时更加压缩。
But nonetheless, you hear these sorts of things all the time.
但尽管如此，你还是经常听到这类事情。
Like, "I used to have this sense of I could do things" or that things could work out or that, and then it's as if there was a previous version of themself that has completely atrophied And the new version of themself, or the later version of themselves rather, just simply doesn't have access to that anymore.
就像，“我曾经有过这样的感觉：我可以做事”或者事情可以解决，或者那样，然后就好像他们自己的先前版本已经完全萎缩了，而他们自己的新版本，或者更确切地说是他们自己的更高版本，只是不再能够访问它了。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But is it-
但这是不是——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
And that's the impact of trauma.
这就是创伤的影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right?
对吗？
Whether it's big trauma or it's a big event, or it's multiple things like, "Oh, the world just isn't rewarding me.
无论是重大创伤还是重大事件，或者是多种事情，例如“哦，这个世界没有奖励我。
I'm trying, the world's not rewarding me.
我努力了，世界却没有回报我。
I'm trying, the world's not rewarding me," then people become dispirited, right?
我努力了，世界却没有回报我”，然后人就变得灰心丧气了，对吗？
Demoralized, right?
士气低落，对吗？
So it's the trauma of that that takes away the sense of self, the sense of agency.
因此，正是这种创伤剥夺了自我意识和能动性意识。
Like, "I thought I could do things before, now I don't think I can do things?" Right?
就像，“我以前认为我可以做一些事情，现在我认为我不能做一些事情？”正确的？
But nothing has really changed in me.
但我的内心并没有真正改变。
That's a problem, right?
这是个问题，对吧？
And it's a problem the vast majority of times it's born of trauma.
绝大多数情况下，这是一个由创伤引起的问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Does that necessarily mean early childhood trauma or, I suppose it could be later life trauma.
这是否一定意味着童年时期的创伤，或者我认为这可能是晚年的创伤。
One of the things that I like about what you're saying so much is that you, the psychiatrist, hears, "I used to be able to do something well or feel well." And that it sounds like is a signal.
我最喜欢你所说的一件事是，你，精神科医生，听到，“我曾经能够做好某事或感觉良好。”这听起来像是一个信号。
It's really a beacon of health that still exists in the person, but that they're out of touch with.
它确实是人体内仍然存在的健康灯塔，但他们却脱离了联系。
I think for most people, when they think about themselves, or people who talk about how they used to be functional in some domain and they're no longer functional in that domain any longer, it sounds as if things are fundamentally broken.
我认为对于大多数人来说，当他们想到自己，或者那些谈论他们曾经在某个领域发挥作用而现在不再在该领域发挥作用的人时，听起来好像事情从根本上被破坏了。
It's as if a piece of them that was functioning drifted out of their body and left, right?
就好像他们的一部分正在发挥作用的东西从他们的身体里飘走了，离开了，对吗？
But I love the optimism, right?
但我喜欢乐观，对吧？
Because I think so much of what we're interested in covering today is not just what's not working and why, but also what's working and why, and what used to work and why, and the idea that within these cupboards there can be the discovery of problems.
因为我认为我们今天感兴趣的内容不仅仅是什么不起作用和为什么，而且还有什么起作用和为什么，什么曾经起作用和为什么，以及在这些橱柜里可以发现问题的想法。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Clearly, that's why one goes to the cupboards, right?
显然，这就是人们去橱柜的原因，对吗？
As we're defining it, but that there are a lot of answers.
正如我们所定义的，但有很多答案。
The ingredients for success already exist within us.
成功的要素已经存在于我们之中。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Especially if we know we've had that ability before, right?
特别是如果我们知道我们以前有过这种能力，对吧？
Because we know that we had it before.
因为我们知道我们以前也有过这样的经历。
So think about in this man, he felt that he couldn't make change, like now he's stuck.
所以想想这个人，他觉得自己无法做出改变，就像现在他被困住了一样。
Right?
正确的？
"I got a lot of things done.
“我做了很多事情。
I was able to get myself into this school and achieve this and then get this job." He could do all of those things, but now he feels like he can't do anything to make himself happy.
我能够进入这所学校并实现这一目标，然后找到这份工作。”他可以做所有这些事情，但现在他觉得他无法做任何让自己快乐的事情。
So we know he could do that.
所以我们知道他可以做到这一点。
He had a strong sense of agency.
他有很强的代理意识。
He doesn't now, right?
他现在不这样做了，对吗？
And like people often do, they feel a sense of loss.
就像人们经常做的那样，他们感到失落感。
Naturally, I've had this happen to myself.
当然，我自己也遇到过这种情况。
It feels like something's cut out of you and there's something hollow.
感觉就像有什么东西从你身上被切掉了，有一些东西是空的。
I had that thing and now I don't, right?
我曾经有过那件事，但现在没有了，对吗？
Hence the, "I'm broken, I'm hopeless," the things that we hear over and over and over again.
因此，我们一遍又一遍地听到“我破碎了，我绝望了”这样的话。
So think about the shift in this person to what's actually going on, which isn't that hard to discern, we just pay attention to it.
因此，想想这个人对实际发生的事情的转变，这并不难辨别，我们只是注意到它。
So then if we run up the structure of self, we say, "Okay, not a lot of it is rooted in the unconscious mind," right?
那么，如果我们探究自我的结构，我们会说，“好吧，其中大部分都不是植根于潜意识的，”对吗？
There are problems of overvaluing certain things, but they're in the conscious mind.
存在高估某些事物的问题，但它们存在于意识中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He knows in his household over dinner it was dad or mom being proud of some dollar amount that-
他知道在他的家里，在晚餐时，爸爸或妈妈会为一些美元感到自豪——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yeah, he knows
是的，他知道
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
they had achieved.
他们已经取得了成就。
So that narrative exists and he's like, "Yeah, money was a big deal in my family," kind of thing.
所以这种说法是存在的，他会说，“是的，钱对我的家庭来说是一件大事”之类的事情。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
By the way, I'm not speaking about my family, but rarely were there discussions about money.
顺便说一句，我不是在谈论我的家庭，但很少有人讨论金钱的问题。
There were discussions about other things, of course, but in this hypothetical person.
当然，还有其他事情的讨论，但讨论的是这个假设的人。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
And he knows he over-
而且他知道他超过了——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A real patient, sorry.
一个真正的病人，对不起。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
He knows he overvalues it, right?
他知道他高估了它，对吗？
He knows that independent of what money buys and what he needs and all that, he just puts too much importance in money, and he knows that, right?
他知道，不管金钱能买什么、他需要什么等等，他只是太看重金钱了，他知道这一点，对吧？
So okay, they're conscious mind issues.
好吧，它们是意识问题。
He's pretty aware of them, and they're pretty set in him, like those are the issues, and they're there.
他非常清楚这些问题，而且这些问题在他身上根深蒂固，就像这些问题一样，而且它们就在那里。
Okay, we learned that.
好的，我们学到了。
Then we go look at his defensive structure.
然后我们再看看他的防守结构。
Boy, that's very, very helpful to talk about.
男孩，这非常非常有帮助。
Wow, you had a very healthy defensive structure.
哇，你有一个非常健康的防守结构。
What were you doing before?
你之前在做什么？
A lot of sublimation, right?
很多升华，对吧？
Taking-
服用-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could you explain sublimation?
你能解释一下升华吗？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Take anxiety, tension, or something negative in the self, or that could be negative, and you channel it towards something positive.
采取焦虑、紧张或自我消极的事物，或者可能是消极的事物，然后将其引导到积极的事物上。
Right?
正确的？
He channeled that energy towards learning, right?
他将这种精力用于学习，对吧？
He channeled some of the aggressive drive into a sense of agency that got achievement.
他将一些积极进取的动力转化为一种获得成就的代理感。
So if you look and said, right, that network of defense mechanisms that comes up out of the unconscious mind was looking pretty good, right?
因此，如果你观察并说，对吧，从无意识中产生的防御机制网络看起来相当不错，对吧？
It was pretty clear.
这很清楚。
Light was coming through it in a way that wasn't distorted.
光线以一种没有扭曲的方式穿过它。
And now we can look at, wow, things are pretty different now as he's saying, "No, it's okay.
现在我们可以看到，哇，现在情况已经完全不同了，因为他说：“不，没关系。
What do you mean?
你什么意思？
I spent 10 hours of my weekend utterly wasting time, and what's wrong with that?" Right?
我周末花了 10 个小时，完全是在浪费时间，这有什么问题吗？”正确的？
Or he's rationalizing even that he likes to drink when he doesn't because he's so mad at himself.
或者他甚至在合理化自己喜欢喝酒，而实际上他不喝酒，因为他对自己很生气。
The defensive structure now is twisted, right?
现在的防守结构已经扭曲了吧？
So we can say, okay, that's a big observation, right?
所以我们可以说，好吧，这是一个很大的观察，对吧？
And then the character structure, when we look at that, we find a person who's pretty good at figuring out and understanding things and coming right up to the precipice of change, but has a long history of then difficulty making the change.
然后是性格结构，当我们审视这一点时，我们会发现一个人非常善于弄清楚和理解事物，并直抵变革的悬崖，但长期以来却很难做出改变。
Right?
正确的？
I know it and I'm on the verge of it, but I can't bring myself to do it.
我知道这一点，而且我正处于这样做的边缘，但我无法让自己这样做。
That's in his character structure.
这就是他的性格结构。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
By the way, it's such a common thing.
顺便说一句，这是很常见的事情。
People that know better know they know better.
懂得更多的人知道他们懂得更多。
Sometimes you almost have to wonder whether or not it's like a medication in the pocket, like they could take it if they wanted to, that might even give them some comfort, but they just don't do it.
有时你几乎不得不怀疑这是否就像口袋里的药物一样，如果他们愿意就可以服用，这甚至可能会给他们带来一些安慰，但他们就是不这样做。
They just don't engage in the proper actions to move their life from one place to the next.
他们只是没有采取适当的行动来将他们的生活从一个地方转移到另一个地方。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
And if we look then at the level of strivings, he does know what he wants.
如果我们看看他的努力程度，他确实知道自己想要什么。
He wants a feeling of contentment.
他想要一种满足的感觉。
It's really what he wanted, was a feeling of contentment, a feeling of, "I'm taking good care of myself.
这确实是他想要的，一种满足的感觉，一种“我照顾好自己了。
I'm doing something that's of value.
我正在做一些有价值的事情。
I'm enjoying doing it." He wanted those things, and even when we talked more, he had ideas of what jobs would do that.
我很享受这样做。”他想要这些东西，即使我们谈得更多，他也知道什么工作可以做到这一点。
In the beginning, he said he had no ideas.
一开始，他说他没有想法。
What he really meant That he said to me, but was also saying to himself, is, "I have no ideas of jobs that would meet these requirements for me that pay as much as the one I have." But within him, which we got to, where he knew that there were jobs that would make him happy, he just had to get over that they were lower paying.
他对我说的，也是对自己说的，他真正的意思是，“我不知道有什么工作能够满足我的这些要求，而且薪水和我现在的工作一样多。”但在他内心，我们到达了，他知道有些工作会让他快乐，他只需要克服这些工作报酬较低的事实。
So think of what we learn about that.
想想我们从中学到了什么。
There's nothing lost in this man.
这个人没有什么损失。
There's nothing cut out of him.
他身上没有任何东西被剪掉。
That he's not damaged, he's not hopeless.
他没有受伤，他也没有绝望。
And now he can understand that he understands himself actually pretty well.
现在他可以明白，他其实很了解自己。
And his conscious mind is apprehending pretty well what's going on and where he wants to go.
他的意识很清楚正在发生什么以及他想去哪里。
But boy, as he hasn't taken good care of himself, the defensive structure gets sort of warped, and then it makes it a lot harder to take care of yourself.
但是天哪，由于他没有照顾好自己，防御结构有点扭曲，然后就更难照顾自己了。
It starts making other problems in life, and he starts feeling lousy about himself.
它开始在生活中造成其他问题，他开始对自己感觉很糟糕。
Like, "Maybe I can't do much of anything." Why?
就像，“也许我无能为力。”为什么？
Because work isn't going as well, because he's drinking too much, and role performance goes down.
因为工作进展不顺利，因为他喝得太多，角色表现也下降了。
So we can see that, and then what's of most interest there is that there's a character structure that can come right up to the precipice, but not pull the trigger, so to speak, on what the thing the person wants to do, because now we start getting, okay, an understanding of what's actually going on.
所以我们可以看到这一点，然后最有趣的是有一个角色结构可以直接走到悬崖边，但不能扣动扳机，可以这么说，关于这个人想做的事情，因为现在我们开始了解实际发生的事情。
And then if we look at function of self, let's look in those cabinets, too.
然后，如果我们看看自我的功能，我们也看看那些柜子。
To help him be more aware of, there's an I here.
为了帮助他更加了解，这里有一个“我”。
Which he was pretty well aware of, but not enough.
他对此很清楚，但还不够。
Like, there's a person here I'm shepherding through 24 hours in the day.
就像，我一天 24 小时都在照顾这里的一个人。
I am an I, and I'm aware of what's going on inside of me, and it can make me happy, or it can make me miserable.
我是一个我，我知道我内心正在发生什么，它可以让我快乐，也可以让我痛苦。
Let's be more aware of that.
让我们更加意识到这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How did he go about doing that?
他是怎么做的呢？
Because I find this first step within addressing the function of self, self-awareness, and really understanding that there's an I, there's a me, and I'm moving myself through life.
因为我发现这是解决自我功能、自我意识的第一步，并真正理解有一个我，有一个我，我在生活中推动自己。
I find this to be so interesting, and on the one hand, kind of obvious, like, okay, there's a I, there's a me tangible thing.
我发现这很有趣，一方面，有点明显，就像，好吧，有一个我，有一个我有形的东西。
You look in the mirror, you see yourself.
你看着镜子，你看到了你自己。
But at the same time, it's a bit abstract, I think, to me and to many people out there.
但与此同时，我认为这对我和很多人来说有点抽象。
How does one go about building up a sense of self in a way that provides positive agency in the world?
一个人如何以一种在世界上提供积极代理的方式建立一种自我意识？
We hear all the time about these affirmations, and I'm sure there are people who look at themselves in the mirror and say, "You are enough," and I'm not making fun of these people.
我们一直听到这些肯定，我确信有人看着镜子里的自己说，“你已经足够了”，我不是在取笑这些人。
I actually have my own internal list that I tell myself on waking every morning, which has nothing to do with positive affirmation.
事实上，我有自己的内部清单，每天早上醒来时我都会告诉自己，这与积极的肯定无关。
It's just actually defining the different roles that I play.
它实际上只是定义了我扮演的不同角色。
I don't know why this is useful to me, but I find it incredibly useful to me.
我不知道为什么这对我有用，但我发现它对我非常有用。
It reminds me who I am.
它提醒我我是谁。
It also reassures me that I don't have any dementia yet.
这也让我放心，我还没有患痴呆症。
We'll see going forward, but hopefully not.
我们会看到未来的发展，但希望不会。
But let's talk about this line of inquiry within the category of self-awareness that people can do, regardless of whatever challenges they might be having or not having.
但是，让我们在人们可以进行的自我意识范畴内讨论这一问题，无论他们可能面临或没有面临什么挑战。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What does that look like, and what do you think that accomplishes at the level of self-understanding and agency in the world?
这看起来是什么样的？你认为这在自我理解和世界代理层面上会取得什么成就？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
So one way of looking at that is, and it's not the words I would use, but what's pervading a person and sort of setting the stage?
因此，看待这个问题的一种方式是，这不是我会使用的词语，而是一个人身上弥漫着什么并在某种程度上奠定了基础？
Which you can discern by inquiry.
通过询问就可以辨别出来。
So for example, in this case, so there's a person who would really not think this is okay.
例如，在这种情况下，有人真的认为这不行。
This person taking a job at 10% of the previous pay, and the job has less prestige.
这个人的工资是之前工资的 10%，而且这份工作的声望较低。
Who's a person who would be very unhappy about that and very faulting of that and talk to this person, my patient, through the lens of that he should feel shame for that.
谁会对此感到非常不满，并对此非常挑剔，并通过这个镜头与这个人（我的病人）交谈，他应该为此感到羞耻。
That person's not alive.
那个人已经不在人世了。
The person is not alive.
这个人已经没有生命了。
So one way of looking at it is, what master are you serving?
所以看待这个问题的一种方式是，你在侍奉哪位主人？
And a lot of the givens, the automaticity in him was as if that person was sort of alive inside of him, really telling him how this wasn't okay.
在很多情况下，他的自动性就好像那个人在他体内还活着，真的告诉他这是怎么不对的。
He was fighting that.
他正在为此而奋斗。
He wasn't aware that, hey, that's some other person's voice.
他没有意识到，嘿，那是别人的声音。
He's like, "No, I'm very conflicted about this." Actually, he wasn't very conflicted about this.
他说：“不，我对此很矛盾。”其实，他对此并不很矛盾。
When he starts focusing on the I, like, what do I actually think?
当他开始关注“我”时，我实际上在想什么？
I don't care if I make 90% less.
我不在乎我的收入是否减少 90%。
I don't care.
我不在乎。
My needs are met.
我的需求得到满足。
I put some money away.
我存了一些钱。
I want to be happy.
我想要快乐。
I'm not conflicted.
我并不矛盾。
But in order to get there, we have to look at the I.
但为了到达那里，我们必须看看 I。
How much is the I at center stage?
舞台中心的“我”有多少？
I don't mean in some way paying too much attention to the self, but we're all acting through the lens of the I no matter what we're choosing.
我并不是说在某种程度上过于关注自我，但无论我们选择什么，我们都是通过“我”的镜头来行动的。
So to be aware of that and do I want to be impacted by the opinions of this other person?
因此，要意识到这一点，我是否希望受到其他人的意见的影响？
Because I can let someone else's opinions very much, we all do, very much impact my thoughts, but I want to decide that.
因为我很容易让别人的意见影响我的想法，但我想自己决定。
Do I really value that person's opinions?
我真的重视那个人的意见吗？
I don't want them automatically inside my head telling me how I feel about myself.
我不希望它们自动出现在我的脑海中告诉我我对自己的感受。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I can't tell you how many people I know come to me in a place of struggle, even though I'm not a clinician, and as I listen to what they're struggling with, it's so clear that they know the best answer and route forward, but that they're dealing with some internal oppressive voice about whether or not they are a good person or a bad person, whether or not the choice they want to make is really a good choice at all.
我无法告诉你有多少我认识的人在挣扎的时候来找我，即使我不是一名临床医生，当我倾听他们正在挣扎的事情时，很明显他们知道最好的答案和前进的道路，但他们正在处理一些内心压抑的声音，关于他们是好人还是坏人，无论他们想要做出的选择是否真的是一个好的选择。
Sometimes those voices are the voices of parents, in these particular examples, or the voices of peers.
有时，在这些特定的例子中，这些声音是父母的声音，或者是同龄人的声音。
And so I think, if I understand correctly, what you're talking about is getting really firmly rooted in who a person is for themselves and what they really value and what they really know to be true for themselves and really trying to not necessarily quiet those voices, but see those voices truly as other, even though they come from within their head.
所以我认为，如果我理解正确的话，你所说的就是要真正牢固地扎根于一个人自己是谁，他们真正看重什么，他们真正知道什么对自己来说是真实的，并真正努力不一定要平息这些声音，而是真正将这些声音视为其他声音，即使它们来自他们的头脑。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yes.
是的。
To stop and think, what voices do I want inside?
停下来想一想，我想要里面有什么声音？
So maybe I want the voice of a kind mentor who still held me to account for a very high standard.
所以也许我想要一位善良的导师的声音，他仍然要求我遵守非常高的标准。
Right.
正确的。
It's a good voice to have inside of me, right?
我内心有一个很好的声音，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I got a few of those and they-
是的，我有一些，他们-
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
But what might not be a good voice is, say a not so kind mentor for whom you could never do anything good enough.
但可能不太好的声音是，一个不太友善的导师说，你永远无法为他做任何足够好的事情。
That's not so good.
那不太好。
Or maybe you take part of that and you leave part of that.
或者也许你接受了其中的一部分，又留下了一部分。
But the earlier and more formative the voices are, the more they're in our head automatically.
但声音越早、越具有形成性，它们就越自然地出现在我们的脑海中。
Think about that man thought that he was deeply conflicted.
想想那个男人的思想，他内心很矛盾。
Absolutely, 100%.
绝对是，100%。
And he was.
他确实是。
His experience was to be deeply conflicted.
他的经历是非常矛盾的。
But when you go in and dig, if you just dig and you get to, okay, the eye is going to assess this.
但是当你进去挖掘时，如果你只是挖掘并且你发现，好吧，眼睛会评估这一点。
He's not conflicted at all.
他一点也不矛盾。
Which is why then if you're coming up the function of self ladder, and you look at defense mechanisms in action, and what's on top of that salience.
这就是为什么如果你要了解自我阶梯的功能，并且你会观察正在发挥作用的防御机制，以及在这种显着性之上的内容。
Now is when it creates an immediacy.
现在正是它创造即时性的时候。
So defense mechanisms in action sort of inform the process and say, "Hey, the defenses are shifting to denial, acting out." And that's what sort of gives us a time horizon, like this is not going to be okay.
因此，正在行动的防御机制在某种程度上告知了这一过程，并说：“嘿，防御正在转向否认，付诸行动。”这就是给我们一个时间范围，就像这样是不行的。
That if he kept down this path, what was very clearly going to happen, you don't have to roll the tape forward that much to see that he's going to lose his job.
如果他继续走这条路，很明显将会发生什么，你不必把磁带向前滚动那么多就能看到他会失去工作。
He's going to feel very ashamed of that.
他会为此感到非常羞愧。
A bunch of negative things are going to happen.
一系列负面的事情将会发生。
So it helps the person apprehend that there's something going on here.
所以它可以帮助人们理解这里正在发生一些事情。
I'm changing.
我正在改变。
Because in some way, I'm thinking now that it's okay that I'm wasting 10 hours on something that I could really enjoy if I spent 90 minutes on it.
因为在某种程度上，我现在在想，我在一些如果我花 90 分钟就能真正享受的事情上浪费 10 个小时也没关系。
Whoa, I'm kind of losing a little bit of perspective there.
哇，我有点失去了一些观点。
So it adds a sense, it frames the situation.
所以它增加了一种感觉，它框架了情境。
And the salience of it.
以及它的显着性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could you elaborate a little bit on this defense mechanism in action of acting out?
您能否详细说明一下这种防御机制在行动中的作用？
I think, we covered in episode one, and I'm sure it will come up several times more during today's discussion, about things like denial, projection, displacement, et cetera.
我想，我们在第一集中讨论过，我相信在今天的讨论中它会多次出现，涉及否认、投射、位移等问题。
Those defense mechanisms seem to have their own intrinsic definition.
这些防御机制似乎有自己的内在定义。
But acting out is something that we hear more and more about these days.
但如今我们越来越多地听到“表现出来”的说法。
Like, "They're acting out." What is acting out?
就像，“他们表现得太过分了。”什么叫表现出来？
Is it acting out of some conflict?
是出于某种冲突而采取的行动吗？
Is it trying to demolish a struggle by going and doing something else?
它是否试图通过去做其他事情来摧毁一场斗争？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yeah.
是的。
We can think of it as by and large an unhealthy manifestation of a lot of aggression.
总的来说，我们可以将其视为大量攻击性的不健康表现。
Which could be a very high aggressive drive or an aggressive drive that's not too high, but its power is furthered by a negative situation.
这可能是一种非常高的侵略性驱动力，也可能是一种不太高的侵略性驱动力，但它的力量会因负面情况而进一步增强。
Say, like this one.
说吧，比如这个。
Because the acting out, what was going on here inside of this person is, he was very, very mad.
因为表现出来，这个人内心发生的事情是，他非常非常生气。
And this isn't a person who expressed a lot of anger.
而且这并不是一个表现出很多愤怒的人。
Or had outlets for it.
或者有渠道。
He wasn't going and running 10 miles.
他不会去跑10英里。
This was all inside of him.
这一切都在他的内心。
He wasn't getting it out in one way or another.
他没有以这样或那样的方式把它说出来。
So what he starts doing is he starts acting out the anger.
所以他开始做的就是开始发泄愤怒。
Now he's angry at the world around him because he's unhappy in it, and it's not giving him more choices.
现在他对周围的世界感到愤怒，因为他对这个世界不满意，而这并没有给他更多的选择。
Now, of course, this is about him and not the world around him.
当然，现在这是关于他的，而不是他周围的世界。
But he's feeling an anger towards the world that won't cooperate.
但他对不合作的世界感到愤怒。
And he's angry towards himself.
而且他对自己很生气。
Because he can't make himself happy.
因为他无法让自己快乐。
Look at all of this, look at all that he did, and look how miserable he is.
看看这一切，看看他所做的一切，看看他有多痛苦。
So a way of acting out then is the drinking.
因此，一种表现方式就是喝酒。
Because the drinking is, to hell with the world.
因为喝酒就是让世界见鬼去吧。
You think I shouldn't be drinking at night and come into work hungover?
你认为我不应该晚上喝酒然后带着宿醉去上班吗？
I'll do it anyway.
无论如何我都会这么做。
To hell with the world.
让世界见鬼去吧。
It's a way of snubbing his nose at the world.
这是他对这个世界嗤之以鼻的一种方式。
He's also snubbing his nose at him.
还对他嗤之以鼻。
To hell with me.
让我见鬼去吧。
The guy who now doesn't come across the way he did before because I'm showing up at work, not in the responsible way I showed up before, but in a way that's a little disheveled, function is lower.
现在这个家伙不再像以前那样了，因为我在工作中表现得不像以前那样负责任，而是有点凌乱，功能较低。
To hell with me.
让我见鬼去吧。
It's a form of self-denigration.
这是一种自我贬低。
Let people think worse of me.
让人们对我有更坏的看法。
Because why?
因为为什么？
Because I'm so mad at myself that I think it's justified.
因为我对自己很生气，所以我认为这是有道理的。
And then there's also the inviting of, hey, if I really have an addiction problem here, I lose my job, it's like, fine, I deserve that too.
然后还有一个邀请，嘿，如果我真的在这里有成瘾问题，我就会失去工作，就像，好吧，我也是应得的。
There's an acting out against the self that if the person doesn't stop and look at that, that can become true.
有一种对抗自我的行为，如果这个人不停下来看看它，那它就会成为现实。
Because that person really wasn't built to say, to hell with the world and with me, or to not even understand that what's to hell with the world mean.
因为那个人生来就不是为了说“让世界见鬼去吧，让我见鬼去吧”，或者甚至不明白“让世界见鬼去吧”是什么意思。
It also means to hell with me, and it's not good for the world or me.
这也意味着让我见鬼去吧，这对世界或我都没有好处。
But he was able to understand that because we would look at like, wow, what's shifted in you?
但他能够理解这一点，因为我们会看着，哇，你身上发生了什么变化？
This is a person who did a lot of sublimation before, who now all of that's going into acting out.
这是一个之前做了很多升华的人，现在所有这些都付诸了行动。
So they're not taking negative energy and doing something good with it.
所以他们并没有利用负能量来做一些好事。
They're taking negative energy and doing things that are bad with it.
他们利用负能量并用它来做坏事。
Why?
为什么？
Because there's too much, there's a lot of negative energy.
因为太多了，负能量就很多。
It's overwhelming everything else.
它压倒了其他一切。
And then it's going down these pathways where the unhealthy defenses are always beckoning us.
然后沿着这些路径走下去，不健康的防御总是在向我们招手。
Send the energy down here.
将能量传送到这里。
It's easier to avoid than it is to face something and figure it out.
逃避比面对某事并解决它更容易。
It's easier to just act out than it is to hold what's inside of us and then think about why it's there.
直接付诸行动比保留我们内心的想法然后思考它为何存在要容易得多。
So the unhealthy defenses are beckoning us.
因此，不健康的防御正在向我们招手。
And for him to see, hey, you have had a healthy defensive structure.
对于他来说，嘿，你有一个健康的防守结构。
You can be healthy again.
你可以再次健康。
You're not broken.
你没有崩溃。
But to also see the way these defenses are going is bringing real risk to your ability to even be happy.
但同时了解这些防御的进展方式也会给你的幸福能力带来真正的风险。
Or you get further down the shame and loss path, it can be hard, sometimes impossible, for the person to get back.
或者你在羞耻和失落的道路上走得更远，这个人可能很难，有时甚至不可能回来。
So it sets the stage at this is very, very important, what these defenses are, how they're being enacted, and for him to be able to see that, like, oh, this could be healthy, but it's not now.
因此，这奠定了非常非常重要的基础，这些防御是什么，它们是如何制定的，并且让他能够看到，就像，哦，这可能是健康的，但不是现在。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, these slow degrading forms of acting out and self-sabotage and sabotage of others, I think, are the particularly dangerous ones.
是的，我认为这些缓慢的、有辱人格的行为、自我破坏和破坏他人的形式是特别危险的。
Because they're slow, and sometimes the change is imperceptibly slow, and then one day somebody arrives at a place where, as you said, they unfortunately can't get back or it requires going into residential treatment or big departures-
因为它们很慢，有时变化慢得难以察觉，然后有一天，有人到达一个地方，正如你所说，不幸的是他们无法返回，或者需要接受住院治疗或大离开——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yes.
是的。
Big departures
大转变
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in order to get back into life.
为了重新回到生活中。
And I would never wish for somebody to choose to act out by driving off a cliff instead, but there are other forms of acting out that immediately wake people up.
我绝不会希望有人选择开车冲下悬崖来发泄，但还有其他形式的发泄方式可以立即唤醒人们。
But it seems like people don't often select those.
但人们似乎并不经常选择这些。
They select these more subtle forms of acting out where they don't get caught, or no one's calling them out on it because Plenty of people have five or six drinks at happy hour, right?
他们选择这些更微妙的表现形式，以免被抓住，或者没有人大声疾呼，因为很多人在欢乐时光喝五六杯酒，对吗？
As opposed to 50, right?
而不是 50，对吧？
So it's slow self-sabotage as opposed to immediate self-destruction.
因此，这是缓慢的自我破坏，而不是立即的自我毁灭。
And again, we're talking about alcohol, but we could be talking about food, video games, social media, arguing with spouse.
再说一遍，我们谈论的是酒精，但我们也可以谈论食物、电子游戏、社交媒体、与配偶的争吵。
I mean, all of these kinds of things that build up over time to eventually deliver people to a place of real problems.
我的意思是，随着时间的推移，所有这些事情都会积累起来，最终将人们带到一个真正存在问题的地方。
I'm curious, for this particular individual you worked with, sounds like that's not what happened.
我很好奇，对于与你共事的这个特定的人来说，听起来好像并没有发生这样的事情。
They started this process of self-inquiry around self-awareness, and did you see that the salience, that is, what they paid attention to internally and externally, immediately shifted, and the defense mechanism of acting out immediately dissolved?
他们围绕自我意识开始了这个自我质询的过程，你是否看到，他们所关注的内在和外在的显着性立即发生了转移，表现出来的防御机制立即消失了？
What was the kind of contour and time course of this?
这件事的轮廓和时间进程是怎样的？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
There was less of salience.
没有那么显着。
If we're looking in the cabinets, there's a lot in the defense mechanisms and action cabinet.
如果我们查看柜子，会发现防御机制和行动柜中有很多东西。
There's not as much in the salience cabinet because this is the major thing on his mind, above all else.
显要内阁里没有那么多东西，因为这是他最重要的事情。
And he was having intrusive thoughts about it, and his self-talk was about it, but we kind of already knew that, just like we knew it was in the conscious mind.
他对此有侵入性的想法，他的自言自语也与此有关，但我们已经知道这一点，就像我们知道它存在于意识中一样。
So if you think, where's the money at, right?
所以如果你想，钱在哪里，对吗？
It's not as much in that realm because he's aware of it.
在那个领域里并没有那么多，因为他意识到了这一点。
If he thought, "Oh, this isn't bothering me very much," and then he said, well, all his internal dialogue is about it, right?
如果他想，“哦，这并没有太困扰我，”然后他说，好吧，他所有的内心对话都是关于它的，对吧？
Then, okay, there's a lot to achieve there.
那么，好吧，还有很多事情要做。
But just as he brought a lot that was unconscious into the conscious mind, was aware of it, it was salient, there's less to do there, because the things to understand and change are not residing so much there.
但正如他将很多无意识的东西带入意识头脑并意识到它一样，它很突出，在那里要做的事情较少，因为需要理解和改变的东西在那里并不多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For people that are, no doubt, everyone is thinking about their own internal processes and where they could ask better questions and arrive at better answers to help themselves along, perhaps you could elaborate a little bit more on this salience cupboard under function of self.
毫无疑问，对于那些人来说，每个人都在思考自己的内部流程，以及他们可以在哪里提出更好的问题并得出更好的答案来帮助自己前进，也许你可以在自我功能下详细说明这个显着的橱柜。
To me, salience is what's most apparent.
对我来说，显着性是最明显的。
And as you talked about yesterday and again today, there's this internal narrative, like what's on my mind often, or what kind of jumps to mind?
正如你昨天和今天再次谈到的那样，有一种内在的叙述，就像我经常想到什么，或者想到什么？
I've started doing this recently based on our discussions here, and I've noticed that under different states of arousal, and here I'm talking specifically about sleepiness versus alertness type arousal.
我最近根据我们在这里的讨论开始这样做，我注意到在不同的唤醒状态下，在这里我特别谈论困倦与警觉型唤醒。
Like when I wake up in the morning or when I'm tired in the evening, where my mind is at, where it defaults to, and what I'm paying attention to throughout the day, is that just asking myself to notice, and I've certainly noticed some patterns.
就像当我早上醒来或晚上疲倦时，我的思维在哪里，它默认在哪里，我一整天都在注意什么，就是要求自己注意，我当然注意到了一些模式。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For instance, I've noticed that any time my overall state is elevated, more alertness, or in the middle of exercise, my mind goes to some not-so-pleasant thoughts.
例如，我注意到，每当我的整体状态提高、更加警觉，或者在锻炼过程中，我的大脑就会产生一些不那么愉快的想法。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's interesting to me.
这对我来说很有趣。
It's like, wow, this is strongly correlated with states of internal arousal that are healthy.
就像，哇，这与健康的内部唤醒状态密切相关。
Exercise within a limited frame is, or exercise in general, if done in a healthy way, is healthy.
有限范围内的锻炼是健康的，或者一般的锻炼，如果以健康的方式进行，也是健康的。
And when I'm sleepy, those thoughts never come about.
当我困倦的时候，这些想法就不会出现。
When I wake up in the morning, certain thoughts tend to leap to mind, other thoughts, no. So sort of categorization of different types of thoughts depending on my internal state.
当我早上醒来时，某些想法往往会跃入脑海，而其他想法则不会。根据我的内部状态对不同类型的想法进行分类。
Is that the sort of line of inquiry that you're suggesting or describing here?
这是您在这里建议或描述的那种调查方式吗？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yes.
是的。
I think it's about half the picture, right?
我认为这大约是图片的一半，对吗？
Because half the picture would be what's going on in your mind when your mind is sort of at rest, right?
因为一半的画面是当你的大脑处于静止状态时你的大脑中正在发生的事情，对吗？
What then starts playing itself in your mind?
然后什么开始在你的脑海中浮现？
The other side of it is what comes to the fore when there's a lot of competition for attention, right?
另一方面是当注意力的竞争很激烈时就会出现，对吗？
So I'm making this up, but the idea that if he stubbed his toe really badly, he'd still be thinking about this.
所以这是我编造的，但如果他真的严重撞到脚趾，他仍然会考虑这件事。
Because it has so much power.
因为它有如此大的力量。
Now, again, maybe if, God forbid, he has a badly broken bone, there's a lot of pain, he's going to think of that first.
现在，再说一次，也许如果，上帝保佑，他的骨头严重骨折，有很多痛苦，他会首先想到这一点。
But it takes a lot of other stimulus to be more salient than this.
但需要许多其他刺激措施才能比这更显着。
So you can look at what's coming in your mind when your mind is sort of free and open.
因此，当你的思想自由开放时，你可以看看你的脑海中正在发生什么。
That's very, very important and relevant.
这是非常非常重要且相关的。
And then what's winning out when there's maybe a high arousal state and a lot of competition for attention.
当存在高度唤醒状态和大量注意力竞争时，什么才是胜出者。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's very helpful.
这非常有帮助。
Again, I think that along with this self-awareness piece, the asking of oneself, what is happening in my mind when I'm in different states or throughout the day, and as you're describing now, also including when there are other things available to think about.
再说一次，我认为，除了这个自我意识的作品之外，还问自己，当我处于不同的状态或一整天时，我的脑海中发生了什么，正如你现在所描述的，还包括当有其他事情可以思考时。
Does that include how often I'm distracted by a particular thought?
这是否包括我因某个特定想法而分心的频率？
Like how many times-
好像有多少次了——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
throughout the day my mind goes from the conversation I might be in to something else or-
一整天我的思绪都从我可能正在进行的谈话转移到其他事情上，或者——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yes.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Does it hijack your attention?
它会劫持你的注意力吗？
Is one way of putting that.
这是一种表达方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A lot of people mention to me challenges with intrusive thoughts.
很多人向我提到侵入性想法带来的挑战。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What can be done about those intrusive thoughts, or is it simply a matter of paying attention to the fact that they're there, and then thinking about the origins of those thoughts?
对于这些侵入性想法我们可以做些什么，或者只是关注它们存在的事实，然后思考这些想法的起源？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
One example, you could have intrusive thoughts because there's trauma in your background, maybe very clear trauma that you're not facing and addressing, and then you have intrusive thoughts that say, "I'm not safe." Okay, go look for what's still in the unconscious mind, or when it comes out a little bit, you push back into the unconscious mind.
举个例子，你可能会产生侵入性想法，因为你的背景中有创伤，也许是你没有面对和解决的非常明显的创伤，然后你就会产生侵入性想法，说“我不安全”。好吧，去寻找潜意识中仍然存在的东西，或者当它出现一点点时，你就将其推回潜意识中。
That's a very different scenario than in this case, this man was having intrusive thoughts about his job situation, his overall situation, and it made sense that he was having those intrusive.
这是一个与本案截然不同的情况，这个人对他的工作状况、他的整体状况有侵入性的想法，他有这些侵入性的想法是有道理的。
They were markers of the acuity of it.
它们是其敏锐度的标志。
Of like, you have to do something about this, or something very bad is going to happen.
当然，你必须对此采取一些措施，否则将会发生非常糟糕的事情。
So the intrusive thoughts there, and this made sense.
所以那里有侵入性的想法，这是有道理的。
Like, this is not going well, and your mind is sort of forcing you to pay attention to this because time really kind of is of the essence.
就像，这一切进展不顺利，你的思想在某种程度上强迫你注意这一点，因为时间确实很重要。
You're at real risk now.
你现在正处于真正的危险之中。
So intrusive thoughts can be anything from, as they often are, they can be markers of something that is traumatic, something that's underneath the surface, something that is really bothering us that we've shoved down, that's making guilt, shame, distress, vulnerability.
因此，侵入性想法可以是任何东西，就像它们经常发生的那样，它们可以是一些创伤性的东西的标志，一些隐藏在表面之下的东西，一些真正困扰我们却被我们压抑的东西，这些东西会让我们感到内疚、羞耻、痛苦和脆弱。
That's very often the case, but sometimes intrusive thoughts are a marker of like, "Oh, right, that's a thing to pay attention to."
这种情况经常发生，但有时侵入性想法是这样的标志：“哦，对了，这是一件需要注意的事情。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And once we identify the intrusive thought, how do we eradicate it?
一旦我们识别出侵入性想法，我们如何消除它？
How do we work with it?
我们如何使用它？
Talking about trauma now.
现在谈论创伤。
Of course, it might map back to a childhood experience, some internal narrative, but is there some roadmap for moving intrusive thoughts from a place of intrusive and disturbing to simply there and kind of meh?
当然，它可能会映射回童年经历，一些内心的叙述，但是是否有一些路线图可以将侵入性思想从侵入性和令人不安的地方转移到简单的地方和某种无聊的地方？
It'd be wonderful to hit a delete switch, but obviously we don't work like that.
如果按下删除开关就太好了，但显然我们不是这样工作的。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Well, let's take a look, if we could, at this example, which is a little bit different.
好吧，如果可以的话，让我们看一下这个例子，它有点不同。
If we run through this example of the person in the job, because then we should talk about trauma-driven intrusive thoughts, which is, I think, in many ways the biggest topic about intrusive thoughts.
如果我们回顾一下这个工作中的人的例子，因为那时我们应该谈论创伤驱动的侵入性想法，我认为，这在很多方面都是关于侵入性想法的最大话题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
But think of this person here, if we go up from salience, we look at behaviors.
但想想这个人，如果我们从显着性上升，我们会关注行为。
And behavior actually now is very important.
现在行为实际上非常重要。
This person is drinking.
这个人正在喝酒。
They're still going to that job they don't want.
他们仍然会去做他们不想要的工作。
They haven't gone and interviewed for the jobs they want.
他们还没有去面试他们想要的工作。
So we start looking at the behaviors that are making problems, the changes in behaviors that could make things better.
因此，我们开始关注造成问题的行为，以及可以使事情变得更好的行为改变。
And then on top of that, we arrive at strivings.
除此之外，我们还努力奋斗。
And I think when I was talking about structure of self, I think at least one time I misspoke and said striving instead of self.
我认为，当我谈论自我结构时，我认为至少有一次我说错了，说的是“努力”而不是“自我”。
At the top of these pyramids, self and striving have a lot of overlap.
在这些金字塔的顶端，自我和奋斗有很多重叠之处。
Because if you're growing a healthy self out of the sort of top of the structure of self pyramid, then that self is going to be aware of strivings and it's going to be better able to enact them.
因为如果你在自我金字塔结构的顶端培养出一个健康的自我，那么这个自我就会意识到自己的努力，并且能够更好地实现这些努力。
So, his sense of self was shaken here, but he was aware of the strivings for a better life.
所以，他的自我意识在这里受到了动摇，但他意识到了为了更好的生活而奋斗。
So now let's see the roadmap.
现在让我们看看路线图。
It's interesting, because the roadmap is his roadmap.
这很有趣，因为路线图就是他的路线图。
If we look in those 10 cupboards, we come up with a roadmap.
如果我们查看这 10 个橱柜，我们就会得出一个路线图。
And the roadmap doesn't have us spending very much time in unconscious land.
路线图并没有让我们在无意识的土地上花费太多时间。
Because he doesn't really need that.
因为他其实并不需要那个。
If we look at what makes the difference for him, what did we do?
如果我们看看是什么对他产生了影响，我们做了什么？
We really cultivated the self-awareness, the I that is making decisions for him.
我们确实培养了自我意识，即我为他做决定。
We looked at how his defensive structure had changed and the things he didn't want to be there now, and the good things that were there before, and how could he get back some of that?
我们看看他的防守结构发生了怎样的变化，以及他现在不想在那里的东西，以及以前存在的好的东西，以及他如何才能收回其中的一些东西？
How could he trend back towards what was working before?
他怎样才能恢复到以前有效的状态呢？
So we start to really look at that, and then we go from there really to changing behaviors.
所以我们开始真正关注这一点，然后我们从那里开始真正改变行为。
It requires a behavioral change, which is not to walk up to the precipice of doing this each day, but to actually do it.
它需要行为上的改变，这不是每天都走到这样做的悬崖边，而是实际去做。
Because it was very clear all the vectors, so to speak, inside of him were pointing towards doing it, and that that was consistent with the self being healthier, that garden growing on top of the structure, and the strivings then being realized.
因为很明显，可以说，他内心的所有向量都指向这样做，这与自我更健康、花园在结构顶部生长以及随后的努力得以实现是一致的。
So for him, that was the roadmap and the salience.
所以对他来说，这就是路线图和重要性。
It wasn't really part of it because the intrusiveness, the salience bias inside of him made sense.
这并不是真正的一部分，因为他内心的侵入性和显着性偏见是有道理的。
And then of course it went away once he made the decisions.
当然，一旦他做出决定，这种感觉就消失了。
Because the intrusive thoughts of, "You have to figure this out.
因为“你必须弄清楚这个问题”的侵入性想法。
You have to figure this out," weren't there anymore, along with the intrusive thoughts of, "You'll never figure this out." It goes away because he made the change, but he made the change because we looked at self-awareness and we strengthened self-awareness.
你必须弄清楚这一点，”不再存在了，伴随着“你永远无法弄清楚这一点”的侵入性想法。它消失是因为他做出了改变，但他做出了改变是因为我们审视了自我意识并加强了自我意识。
We looked at defense mechanisms, how they could be versus how they are.
我们研究了防御机制，它们可能是怎样的，又是怎样的。
We looked at the behavioral change, which was really necessary.
我们研究了行为改变，这确实是必要的。
And then also referencing a character structure that has difficulty coming across the precipice.
然后还引用了一个难以跨越悬崖的角色结构。
So we said, "Okay, that's a baseline characteristic of him.
所以我们说，“好吧，这是他的基本特征。
We kind of understand that, but how do we help him change the behaviors anyway?" When he does that, the self is in a better, happier, healthier place.
我们有点理解这一点，但我们如何帮助他改变行为呢？”当他这样做时，自我就会处于一个更好、更快乐、更健康的状态。
The strivings are realized.
努力已经实现了。
This person stops drinking in the way they were.
这个人不再像以前那样喝酒了。
They start doing the enjoyment aspects of their life, they start doing them within reasonable bounds again.
他们开始做生活中享受的事情，他们再次开始在合理的范围内做这些事情。
They're taking care of themselves.
他们正在照顾自己。
The person's smiling.
那个人在微笑。
And now think the generative drive is much more fulfilled.
现在我认为生成动力更加满足了。
So what comes on top of those pillars is that person has a sense of humility.
因此，除了这些支柱之外，这个人还有谦卑感。
Enough humility to say, "I'm going to walk away from this job.
足够谦虚地说：“我要辞去这份工作。
It's okay that the people in the job will think I'm crazy.
工作中的人会认为我疯了，这没关系。
How could you leave that?" And it triggers something in me in some way, but it's okay.
你怎么能留下那个？”它以某种方式触发了我内心的某些东西，但没关系。
I'm not out there for that.
我不是为了这个。
I'm not out there for the big thing that everybody is getting.
我不是为了每个人都得到的大事而存在的。
I can have the humility to go to the job that I know makes a difference and feels good to me.
我可以谦虚地去做我知道会带来改变并且让我感觉良好的工作。
He's empowered to make change.
他有能力做出改变。
He's moving away from the disempowerment of the alcohol and the avoidance.
他正在摆脱酒精带来的剥夺和回避。
So there's empowerment in humility.
因此，谦卑中蕴藏着力量。
And absolutely, if you talk to that person on the other side of it, shortly as he was enacting it, getting just to the other side of it, there was so much empowerment and so much humility, which were then brought to bear through a sense of agency that made the changes.
当然，如果你和另一边的那个人交谈，当他刚刚制定它时，就到了另一边，有如此多的授权和如此多的谦逊，然后通过一种做出改变的代理感来承担这些。
That changed the job, that stopped drinking, that dealt with the people who thought negatively of it.
这改变了工作，停止饮酒，与那些对此持消极看法的人打交道。
Through a sense of gratitude of, "It's not awful that I'm going to go make less money." A lot of people said that to him.
通过一种感激之情，“我会赚更少的钱，这并不可怕。”很多人都这样对他说过。
Like, "How could you do it?
就像，“你怎么能这么做？
It's so terrible." He's like, "It's not terrible.
太可怕了。”他说：“这并不可怕。
I'm grateful.
我很感激。
You know what I'm going to do?
你知道我要做什么吗？
I'm going to go make an amount of money that's all that I need." So it was like that's what helps a person do that thing, and that's actually true.
我要去赚足够多的钱，这就是我所需要的。”所以这就像是帮助一个人做那件事的原因，这确实是真的。
That's what mattered to him.
这对他来说很重要。
So an activated, an active, a verb sense of agency and gratitude then leads him to the place where there was at peace, contentment, delight.
因此，一种被激活的、主动的、动词性的代理感和感激之情会引导他到达平静、满足、快乐的地方。
He was delighting in the job that he chose, and his generative drive was in accord with it.
他对自己选择的工作很满意，他的生成动力也与之相一致。
Then eventually we stopped at some point working together.
然后最终我们在某个时候停止了合作。
He didn't need me anymore.
他不再需要我了。
He could always come back, but he didn't need me anymore.
他随时可以回来，但他不再需要我了。
Then you look at how were those last sessions.
然后你看看最后几节课怎么样。
A lot of the last sessions were him, in an excited way, telling me what he was doing.
最近的很多会议都是他以一种兴奋的方式告诉我他在做什么。
Like, "Oh, and then we did this," and like, "I did this.
就像，“哦，然后我们做了这个，”并且就像，“我做了这个。
I figured this out." He was so happy about it.
我想通了。”他对此非常高兴。
And you could see that man's generative drive, which naturally is quite high in him, but was being squelched.
你可以看到这个人的生成动力，他本来就很高，但正在被压制。
That brings him out of balance.
这让他失去平衡。
Now the generative drive was in quite a good place, and he had enough aggression or assertion to go and do that job and to do that well, and even enough to counter anybody who would still kind of rise up and say that wasn't a good idea.
现在，生成动力处于相当好的位置，他有足够的侵略性或主张去完成这项工作并做得很好，甚至足以反击任何仍然站起来说这不是一个好主意的人。
He could counter all that.
他可以反击这一切。
He was getting pleasure from it.
他从中得到乐趣。
He didn't need to seek pleasure by what?
他不需要靠什么来寻求快乐？
Not even pleasure because alcohol was pleasurable.
甚至连快乐都没有，因为酒精是令人愉悦的。
No pleasure, because harming himself and saying, "To hell with you," to the world and to him was pleasurable, right?
没有快乐，因为伤害自己并对世界和他说“让你见鬼去吧”是快乐的，对吧？
He's not getting pleasure that way.
他这样得不到快乐。
He's getting pleasure in healthier ways, taking care of himself, doing the job he loves, doing his leisure activities.
他以更健康的方式获得快乐，照顾自己，做他喜欢的工作，做他的休闲活动。
The man comes into balance and then life is good and we say, "Yeah, okay.
这个人达到了平衡，然后生活就美好了，我们说：“是的，好吧。
Come back in a couple of months." Comes back in a couple of months, maybe in six months, comes back one more time, I don't see him again.
几个月后回来。”几个月后回来，也许六个月后，再回来一次，我就再也见不到他了。
That's great.
那太棒了。
He totally doesn't need me again, and I atrophied from his life.
他完全不再需要我了，我也从他的生活中消失了。
Great.
伟大的。
That's the success state of it.
这就是它的成功状态。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Eventually arrived at being truly wealthy, right?
最终达到了真正的富有，对吗？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
With all the components of mental health and peace, contentment, delight.
具有心理健康、平和、满足、快乐的所有组成部分。
As you describe his story, which is a remarkable one, it occurs to me that the narratives that we hear as children end up being so powerful.
当你描述他的故事时，这是一个非凡的故事，我突然想到，我们小时候听到的故事最终是如此强大。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm sure there are people out there that receive such direct messages from their mother and/or father, like, "You have to do this.
我确信有人会从他们的母亲和/或父亲那里收到这样的直接信息，比如，“你必须这样做。
You cannot do that." But often we get messages through observing and overhearing, right?
你不能那样做。”但我们通常是通过观察和无意听到来获取信息的，对吗？
The way that our mother talks about our father when he's out of the room.
当我们的父亲离开房间时，我们的母亲谈论他的方式。
The way that our father talks about our mother when she's out of the room.
当我们的母亲离开房间时，父亲谈论她的方式。
And some of this could be non-verbal, like a rolling of the eyes or somebody saying, "Yes, yes," agreeing, and then they walk out and they just and kind of blowing them off, right?
其中一些可能是非语言的，比如翻个白眼，或者有人说，“是的，是的”，表示同意，然后他们走出去，他们只是把他们吹走，对吗？
We are all so aware and integrating all of that all the time, and I do think those messages get woven into us at a very deep level.
我们一直都非常清楚并整合所有这些，我确实认为这些信息已经深深地融入了我们。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then, of course, there are the conscious narratives that we build up as we go through, in particular, I think, elementary and middle school and high school.
当然，还有我们在经历过程中建立的有意识的叙述，我认为尤其是在小学、初中和高中。
I can still remember a negative comment somebody made about a jacket that I was wearing in the third or the fourth grade.
我仍然记得有人对我三年级或四年级时穿的一件夹克发表了负面评论。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I forget everything else that happened that year but I remember that.
我忘记了那一年发生的一切，但我记得那件事。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
You remember that.
你还记得这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And I'm not insecure about the clothing that I pick.
我对自己挑选的衣服并不缺乏信心。
Obviously, it's a black button-down shirt.
显然，这是一件黑色的纽扣衬衫。
I've had similar shirts since the first grade.
我从一年级起就穿过类似的衬衫。
Just kidding.
只是在开玩笑。
But the fact that that's embedded in my memory systems just speaks to the salience of negative insults, basically.
但事实上，这根植于我的记忆系统中，基本上说明了负面侮辱的显着性。
It was an insult.
这是一种侮辱。
And I'm sure I've insulted plenty of kids coming up as a teenager and back and forth.
我确信我曾经侮辱过很多十几岁的孩子。
But these narratives get so deeply embedded and the idea that one could pick a different path of vocation or you'll miss the opportunity to be truly happy at a deep level based on these narratives.
但这些叙述如此深入人心，人们可以选择不同的职业道路，否则你将错过基于这些叙述的深层真正快乐的机会。
On one hand, it's obvious, on the other hand, you just go like, "Whoa, this is not good.
一方面，这是显而易见的，另一方面，你就会说，“哇，这不好。
This is a flaw in the design," right?
这是设计上的缺陷，”对吗？
And yet you're giving us a roadmap to understanding and to overcoming it.
然而，您却为我们提供了理解和克服它的路线图。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Let's say we take your examples, they're great examples, and we look at them.
假设我们采用您的例子，它们是很好的例子，我们会研究它们。
The person making fun of the coat in third grade.
三年级时取笑这件外套的人。
We're assuming it hasn't harmed you, it hasn't changed the course of your life.
我们假设它没有伤害你，也没有改变你的生活轨迹。
What does it tell us?
它告诉我们什么？
It shows that negative stimuli are very salient.
这表明负面刺激非常显着。
I'm sure you got a lot of compliments in third grade, too.
我相信你在三年级的时候也得到了很多赞美。
But it's the negative that stands out, which just shows that there's a salience bias in us towards the negative, and that's probably about survival and threat sensing.
但最突出的是负面因素，这表明我们对负面因素存在显着偏见，这可能与生存和威胁感知有关。
In some ways, it makes sense around human survival, but it doesn't make sense around human trauma, right?
在某些方面，它对人类生存有意义，但对人类创伤就没有意义，对吗？
So you had given the example of what gets communicated to the child when, say, Mother says something negative about Father when Father's out of the room, Father says something negative about Mother when Mother's out of the room.
所以你已经举了一个例子，当父亲不在房间时，母亲对父亲说了一些负面的话，当母亲不在房间时，父亲对母亲说了一些负面的话，这会传达给孩子什么。
Just to give an example.
只是举个例子。
So children, because the complex cognitive mechanisms haven't been formed yet, the natural way that the brain functions is in a self-referential way.
所以孩子们，因为复杂的认知机制还没有形成，大脑运作的自然方式是自我参照的方式。
So the child generally doesn't have the capacity to say, like, "Oh, Mom and Dad aren't really getting along well in this certain way, so when Dad's not here, Mom vents a little bit about something about him by saying..." The child isn't thinking about that.
所以孩子通常没有能力说，“哦，爸爸和妈妈在这方面相处得不太好，所以当爸爸不在的时候，妈妈会通过说……来发泄一些关于他的事情。”孩子并没有想到这一点。
Then what the child will often internalize is, "Okay, there's me and there's Mom and Dad, and Mom says Dad is bad and Dad says Mom is bad, and I must be bad, too." Because in general, if your parents are bad, then the child takes that on themselves.
然后孩子经常内化的是，“好吧，有我，有爸爸妈妈，妈妈说爸爸不好，爸爸说妈妈不好，我也一定很坏。”因为一般来说，如果你的父母不好，那么孩子就会自己承担责任。
Now again, I'm giving a simple example, but I'm very much extrapolating it.
现在，我再次给出一个简单的例子，但我是在很大程度上推断它。
Imagine if that were very, very aggressive, where the mother, when this happens, just tells the child how awful the father is and the father does the same.
想象一下，如果这是非常非常具有攻击性的，当这种情况发生时，母亲只是告诉孩子父亲是多么糟糕，而父亲也会这样做。
Someone's not going to come out the other side of that being like, "You know what?
有人不会从另一面出来，说：“你知道吗？
Maybe they're both awful, but I'm not." That's not how that goes.
也许他们都很糟糕，但我不是。”事情不是这样的。
So the traumatic lessons of childhood get internalized.
因此，童年时期的创伤教训就会内化。
And they don't even always have a solution state.
他们甚至并不总是有一个解决方案状态。
So you think about the man who knew, like, okay, you have to go get this job, and all those things he internalized, you might say, well, he got to a good place for him.
所以你想想那个男人，他知道，好吧，你必须去得到这份工作，而他内化的所有这些事情，你可能会说，好吧，他找到了一个适合他的地方。
So for better or for worse, at least there was a place to go.
所以无论好坏，至少有一个地方可以去。
To go work hard, go succeed, go check this box you've been told you're supposed to check.
为了努力工作、取得成功，请勾选这个你被告知应该勾选的框。
But oftentimes, there is no solution state.
但很多时候，并没有解决的状态。
So how many children, it's just terrible that this is such a high percentage of the work adult practitioners do, is helping people who as children were told one way or another that they were worthless, incapable, bad.
可怕的是，有多少孩子，在成人从业者所做的工作中，所占的比例如此之高，是在帮助那些在孩童时期就被告知自己毫无价值、无能、糟糕的人。
That gets put into the child, unfortunately, far, far often.
不幸的是，这种想法经常被灌输给孩子。
One time on the planet is too frequent, let alone how often this happens.
在这个星球上出现一次已经太频繁了，更不用说这种情况发生的频率了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That example makes really good sense.
这个例子确实很有道理。
And this is a question, could we add to that the example whereby the child overhears, again, examples of what, say ...
这是一个问题，我们是否可以添加一个例子，让孩子再次无意中听到一些例子，比如……
men should be like, or women should be like.
男人应该像，或者女人应该像。
These things, it's not so much like, "You did wrong, Andrew," or, "You did wrong, Paul," or telling Dar, "You screwed up." But it's more, again, narratives that we overhear, or even a parent showing delight or excitement about a certain phenotype in the world.
这些事情并不像“你做错了，安德鲁”，或者“你做错了，保罗”，或者告诉达尔，“你搞砸了。”但更多的是我们无意中听到的叙述，甚至是父母对世界上某种表型表现出的喜悦或兴奋。
Like, "Oh, wow, look at that person," or, "Look at them.
就像，“哦，哇，看看那个人，”或者，“看看他们。
Isn't she beautiful?" Right?
她不漂亮吗？”正确的？
That the young child thinks like, "Okay, well then that's the epitome of beauty through the lens of the parent." Or, gosh, like this person, like, "Ugh." Then that child internalizes that this is the epitome of disgust with another human being.
年幼的孩子会想，“好吧，那么这就是父母镜头下美丽的缩影。”或者，天哪，就像这个人一样，“呃”。然后那个孩子就会内化，这是对另一个人厌恶的缩影。
And I think children are so savvy without realizing it.
我认为孩子们在没有意识到的情况下是如此精明。
It's like, okay, well then I guess you move toward that, and you aspire to that, and you deflect from that.
就像，好吧，那么我想你会朝着那个方向前进，你渴望那个，然后你会偏离那个。
And you can see how these trajectories can be set very early on.
您可以看到如何尽早设定这些轨迹。
These are the four-lane highways that we were talking about in episode one, where just routes of neural processing that bring us to choices in life and places in life that oftentimes you go like, "I don't want to go down this path anymore."
这些就是我们在第一集中讨论的四车道高速公路，其中的神经处理路线将我们带到生活中的选择和生活中的地方，你经常会这样说：“我不想再走这条路了。”
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so the exploration of early narratives, both direct and indirect, first person and third person, seem so critical.
因此，对早期叙事的探索，无论是直接的还是间接的、第一人称和第三人称，似乎都至关重要。
How does one go about that?
怎样做呢？
Clearly with a trained clinician like you would guide somebody through the process.
显然，像您这样训练有素的临床医生会指导某人完成整个过程。
But if somebody were to try and do this in some sort of structured way for themselves, what do those lines of inquiry look like?
但如果有人尝试以某种结构化的方式为自己做到这一点，那么这些调查线会是什么样子呢？
Because we have vast number of experiences from childhood, but some messages are going to be more salient than others.
因为我们从小就有大量的经历，但有些信息会比其他信息更加突出。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Sure.
当然。
Yeah, the idea that reflective self-scrutiny can help us, I think, is just a great idea.
是的，我认为反思性的自我审视可以帮助我们，这是一个好主意。
It's a great concept, and we do a lot of different things sort of inside, and we're guided to do a lot of things inside.
这是一个很棒的概念，我们在里面做了很多不同的事情，我们被引导在里面做很多事情。
But this, I think, should overshadow many, if not most of all those other things of, what's really going on inside of me?
但我认为，这应该掩盖许多（如果不是大多数）其他事情，即我内心到底发生了什么？
Because if you think about it, a lot of people will come through that and they'll learn, right?
因为如果你想一想，很多人都会经历这个并且他们会学习，对吧？
So the person is told, like, "This is what beautiful is.
所以这个人被告知，“这就是美丽的所在。
This is what successful is.
这就是成功的意义。
This is what good enough looks like." Right?
这就是足够好的样子。”正确的？
And that person may, through all sorts of experiences, maybe other people in their lives who are more balanced, be able to arrive on the other side of that, even still sometimes going through the midst of it, depending upon age and situation and they're like, "Okay, that's what my father and mother thinks this is what beauty is, this is what success is, but it's one set of opinions, and it's not a set of opinions that are going to define me." Sometimes people get to that place, but a lot of times they don't, and they carry that lesson forward, and they're not aware of it, right?
这个人可能通过各种各样的经历，也许生活中其他更平衡的人，能够到达另一边，甚至有时仍然经历其中，这取决于年龄和情况，他们会说，“好吧，这就是我父母所认为的，这就是美丽，这就是成功，但这是一套观点，而不是一组能够定义我的观点。”有时人们会到达那个地方，但很多时候他们没有，他们将这一教训继续下去，但他们没有意识到，对吗？
So they think that they're very unattractive, even though other people are giving them different signals.
所以他们认为自己非常没有吸引力，尽管其他人给了他们不同的信号。
They think that they're very dumb, even though other people are giving them different signals, and their own grades and their own success may be giving them different signals, right?
他们认为自己很愚蠢，尽管其他人给了他们不同的信号，而他们自己的成绩和自己的成功可能给了他们不同的信号，对吗？
But they're not putting the two things together, and that's going to generate tension, right?
但他们并没有把这两件事放在一起，这会产生紧张，对吗？
That might be why that person doesn't follow up on potential relationships, right?
这可能就是那个人不跟进潜在关系的原因，对吗？
They just don't think they're good enough, and the person's eventually going to reject them because of what they look like, right?
他们只是认为自己不够好，而这个人最终会因为他们的外表而拒绝他们，对吧？
They're taking that with them in this example from childhood, right?
在这个例子中，他们从小就带着这种感觉，对吗？
Or they're not satisfied with the job that in other ways is really great, right?
或者他们对这份在其他方面确实很棒的工作不满意，对吧？
They enjoy the work, they enjoy everything, but it doesn't pay enough, right?
他们享受工作，享受一切，但报酬不够，对吧？
Why?
为什么？
Because they have some false idea inside of what it's supposed to pay, right?
因为他们对应该支付的费用有一些错误的想法，对吗？
Because it's what the parent said.
因为这是家长说的。
So by self-scrutiny of what are the givens?
那么通过自我审视，给定的是什么？
I always think it goes back to the math minor, right?
我总觉得这可以追溯到数学辅修，对吧？
If you can't solve the problem, go back and look at the givens, right?
如果你解决不了问题，就回去看看给定的，对吗？
What are you taking for granted?
你认为什么是理所当然的？
Like, "Oh, I know that every time I see an X, that X equals four, right?" Really, maybe you wrote down four somehow because you were thinking of four at the time, and X actually is a three, right?
就像，“哦，我知道每次我看到一个 X，那个 X 就等于四，对吗？”真的，也许你不知何故写下了四，因为你当时想到的是四，而X实际上是三，对吧？
So just go back and look at what you're taking for granted, right?
所以回头看看你认为理所当然的事情，对吗？
And a lot of times, this is what we're doing in the therapy process.
很多时候，这就是我们在治疗过程中所做的事情。
And then that's when the person can realize.
然后这个人就能意识到。
So I'm simplifying.
所以我正在简化。
But for the person to realize, like, "Oh, there's a voice in my head, so to speak, it's a natural voice, that is the voice of this person right, who may not even be around anymore, whose opinion doesn't mean as to me what it did before.
但要让这个人意识到，“哦，我脑子里有一个声音，可以说，这是一个自然的声音，那就是这个人的声音，对吧，他可能已经不在了，他的意见对我来说并不意味着它以前做过什么。
But that voice is saying, 'You're unattractive.
但那个声音在说：‘你没有吸引力。
You're not making enough money.
你赚的钱还不够。
You're not good enough.' Right?
你还不够好。对吗？
And you know what?
你知道吗？
I don't believe that." Right?
我不相信这一点。”正确的？
They can identify that, and then it doesn't happen all at once, but you can get it out of you.
他们可以识别出这一点，然后它不会一下子发生，但你可以把它从你身上去掉。
But generally, you don't get it out of you unless you realize that it's there.
但一般来说，除非你意识到它的存在，否则你无法将它从你身上除去。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What is the process of getting it out?
取出来的过程是怎样的？
Because I think that we all have the capacity to remember certain things and to arrive at a place where we can understand, okay, I'm taking for granted the fact that there's a voice in my head that says blank.
因为我认为我们都有能力记住某些事情并到达我们可以理解的地方，好吧，我理所当然地认为我的脑海中有一个声音说空白。
Actually, I have a brief anecdote to say about this, and this isn't the quote unquote, "I have a friend thing." I literally have a female friend who the other day called me laughing and crying because she was being evicted from her apartment.
事实上，我有一个简短的轶事要说，这并不是那句话“我有一个朋友”。我确实有一位女性朋友，前几天她一边哭一边打电话给我，因为她被赶出了她的公寓。
And she told her mother about this over the phone, and her mother's response was, "Well, at least you're thin."
她在电话里把这件事告诉了妈妈，妈妈的回答是：“好吧，至少你瘦了。”
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And she was laughing and crying about it because it reflected so much of her childhood.
她对此又笑又哭，因为这反映了她童年的很多经历。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
That no other accomplishment of having a job, having an apartment, et cetera mattered.
拥有一份工作、拥有一套公寓等其他成就都不重要。
It was about one thing.
这是关于一件事的。
It was about a certain form of aesthetic beauty that I'm not even sure she subscribes to, even though she happens to be thin, right?
这是关于某种形式的审美之美，我什至不确定她是否认同，尽管她碰巧很瘦，对吧？
So the fact that her mother would lift that from the conversation, there's such a deprivation of so many things in that interaction.
事实上，她的母亲会从谈话中剔除这一点，在这种互动中，有很多东西被剥夺了。
But it really wasn't about that interaction.
但这实际上与互动无关。
She was calling me because it was really about her entire childhood, right?
她打电话给我是因为这真的关系到她的整个童年，对吗？
And obviously, I'm not equipped to solve the problem, and it wasn't a request for money or anything of that sort.
显然，我没有能力解决这个问题，而且这也不是要钱或类似的东西。
It was almost like the hilarity and the sadness of the whole picture, right?
这几乎就像整个画面的欢闹和悲伤，对吧？
But again, it speaks to these narratives that we internalize and that sometimes show up in very glaring ways in the real world.
但它再次讲述了我们内化的这些叙述，这些叙述有时以非常明显的方式出现在现实世界中。
It's like to hear that, I think, was shocking to her.
我想，听到这个消息让她感到震惊。
I think she needed to tell me to like, "Is this real?" But then it was clear that that message had existed in her head for a long time anyway.
我想她需要告诉我，“这是真的吗？”但后来很明显，无论如何，这个信息已经在她的脑海中存在了很长一段时间。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
That could be very pivotal if she realizes that, right?
如果她意识到这一点，那可能非常关键，对吧？
And even the power of the humor of it is like, this is absurd.
就连它的幽默力量也让人觉得这很荒谬。
That can be very powerful in creating change, because if there's some vestige of that inside of her, where she still believes, like, "Oh, I'm not good enough because I achieved A, B, and C, but I don't look like X," or whatever, it can very much help because there's a lot of power behind realizing that absurdity of like, "Oh my god, that's bizarre.
这对于创造改变来说是非常强大的，因为如果她内心有一些残留，她仍然相信，比如，“哦，我不够好，因为我达到了 A、B 和 C，但我看起来不像 X，”或者其他什么，它会很有帮助，因为认识到这种荒谬的背后有很大的力量，比如“哦，天哪，这太奇怪了。
But wait, is any of that inside of me?
但是等等，我内心有这样的东西吗？
Am I carrying some of that with me?" There's an incentive for self-scrutiny in through what you're describing, because what's the ideal amount of that to still be in her?
我身上有带一些吗？”通过你所描述的内容，有一种自我审视的动机，因为她身上仍然存在的理想数量是多少？
Zero.
零。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So as one comes to realize the messages they've heard, or perhaps, like in this case, that they're still hearing, is the process of overcoming those messages and really arriving at the self, it sounds to me like it's a two-part process, at least two-part process.
因此，当人们开始意识到他们所听到的信息，或者也许，就像在这种情况下，他们仍在听到的信息，是克服这些信息并真正到达自我的过程，在我看来，这是一个由两部分组成的过程，至少是由两部分组成的过程。
It's to look in the bin of what are the givens?
是要看看垃圾箱里有什么给定的东西？
What am I taking for granted about the internal narratives?
关于内部叙述，我认为理所当然的是什么？
And thinking about their origins in childhood or elsewhere, but then also cultivating the self-awareness piece that's under the function of self.
思考它们在童年或其他地方的起源，然后也培养自我功能下的自我意识部分。
Like, wait, what's really true for me at the level of me?
就像，等等，在我的层面上，什么才是真正真实的？
And this is really, I think, about separating out the voices in one's head, these internalized narratives, from the person that we really truly are.
我认为，这实际上是将一个人头脑中的声音、这些内在的叙述与我们真正的人分开。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Because the idea is that those two pillars encompass everything we need to look at, right?
因为我们的想法是这两个支柱涵盖了我们需要考虑的一切，对吗？
Those 10 cupboards encompass everything.
这10个柜子囊括了一切。
So it's all that, right?
所以就这样了，对吧？
The person who's going and looking at the givens, they're trying to understand what might be in my unconscious mind that I'm not aware of, right?
那些去看已知事实的人，他们试图理解我的潜意识中可能存在着我没有意识到的东西，对吧？
And huh, wow, the last time I got this big award at work, I had this reflexive thought of like, "But you're not thin enough." Wow.
呵呵，哇，上次我在工作中获得这个大奖时，我本能地想，“但你还不够瘦。”哇。
Whoa, right?
哇，对吧？
There could be a process.
可能有一个过程。
That's going on inside of me.
这就是我内心正在发生的事情。
I don't want that going on inside of me, right?
我不想让这种事在我内心发生，对吗？
So the process of trying what is unconscious in us that may be causing us harm, which is often where the trauma goes, right?
因此，尝试我们无意识的东西的过程可能会对我们造成伤害，这通常就是创伤的根源，对吗？
It's where the childhood trauma seats itself, which brings us back around to the intrusive thoughts, right?
这是童年创伤的根源，它让我们回到侵入性想法，对吧？
Intrusive negative thoughts and negative self-dialogue usually does not mean what it meant to the man who needed to change jobs, right?
侵入性的消极想法和消极的自我对话通常对需要换工作的人来说并不意味着什么，对吗？
Because they were there for a good reason, right?
因为他们在那里有充分的理由，对吗？
And he needed to make change.
他需要做出改变。
More often, they're the vestiges, the hangover, the lingering badness of some prior trauma.
更常见的是，它们是一些先前创伤的痕迹、宿醉、挥之不去的不良影响。
So oftentimes, when you think, we talked a little bit yesterday about the person who was driving in the car and just telling themselves over and over that they're a loser, right?
很多时候，当你想到时，我们昨天谈论了一些开车的人，只是一遍又一遍地告诉自己，他们是一个失败者，对吧？
And then they can't achieve the things that they achieved when they stopped doing that.
然后他们就无法实现当他们停止这样做时所实现的目标。
I'm simplifying a little, but that's the basics of it, right?
我稍微简化了一点，但这就是它的基础，对吧？
Because the intrusive thoughts, the self-narrative, all the negativity in us is often coming from places that are in the unconscious mind, right?
因为我们内心的侵入性想法、自我叙述、所有消极情绪往往都来自潜意识中的地方，对吗？
Not always, but this idea that I don't think I'm good enough, I'm saying it to myself over and over again like, wow, let's go back and look at why.
并不总是如此，但我认为自己不够好，我一遍又一遍地对自己说，哇，让我们回去看看为什么。
Because the answer to that, again, lies in a different place.
因为这个问题的答案又在另一个地方。
There's just a different roadmap, right?
只是有不同的路线图，对吗？
The man who needed to change jobs had a roadmap that spent a little bit of time in the I, self-awareness, and then it went through self-defense mechanisms in action land, then it spent a lot of time with behavior, and then it got up to the strivings.
需要换工作的人有一个路线图，在“我”、自我意识中花费了一点时间，然后在行动领域经历了自我防御机制，然后在行为上花费了大量时间，然后开始奋斗。
That's his roadmap.
这就是他的路线图。
Whereas for someone who's laboring under the intrusive thoughts, the negative self-talk, the automaticity, the givens of childhood trauma, then it needs to go to a different place, where now we're spending time in the unconscious mind, thinking about what's there, figuring out what's there, bringing things to consciousness, right?
而对于那些在侵入性思想、消极自言自语、自动性、童年创伤的既定情况下苦苦挣扎的人，那么它需要去一个不同的地方，现在我们花时间在潜意识中，思考那里有什么，弄清楚那里有什么，把事情带入意识，对吗？
That person, say, realizing maybe your friend who had this realization of like, oh my goodness.
比如说，那个人意识到也许你的朋友也有这样的认识，哦天哪。
We say, wow, did that bring something to the conscious mind in her?
我们说，哇，这是否给她的意识带来了一些东西？
If so, great.
如果是这样，那就太好了。
Let's look at that, and let's look a lot at it, and let's look, are there other things there too, right?
让我们看看这个，让我们仔细看看，还有其他的东西，对吗？
Are there other givens?
还有其他给定吗？
Let's bring them to consciousness so that we can talk about them, we can identify them, and then look at how does that relate to defense mechanism, the character structure, and now what are we doing?
让我们把它们带入意识，这样我们就可以谈论它们，我们可以识别它们，然后看看这与防御机制、角色结构有什么关系，现在我们在做什么？
A process of interested inquiry.
一个有兴趣探究的过程。
This is really interesting.
这真的很有趣。
It should be interesting to the person doing it.
做这件事的人应该很有趣。
It's them, right?
是他们吧？
And it should be interesting to the person doing it with them, right?
和他们一起做的人应该会很有趣，对吗？
Because if you're a therapist and it's not interesting to you, you need another job.
因为如果你是一名治疗师并且你对此不感兴趣，那么你需要另一份工作。
Right?
正确的？
So or you're talking to a friend, like if it's a friend who's going to be interested.
或者你正在和一个朋友聊天，就像是一个对此感兴趣的朋友一样。
So there's an interested, honest, open inquiry with the idea of, hold on, let's learn things so that we can make change for the better.
因此，我们进行了一次有趣、诚实、开放的调查，其想法是，坚持住，让我们学习一些东西，以便我们能够做出更好的改变。
And even though, as we talked about yesterday, the intrusive thoughts and the self-dialogue that's gone on over and over and over again, it doesn't go away easily.
尽管正如我们昨天谈到的，侵入性想法和自我对话一遍又一遍地发生，但它并不会轻易消失。
But that doesn't mean it doesn't atrophy over time and go away, or that the person can have that reflexive thought like, oh, there's the thought again that I'm a loser, or that I should cut myself, or I should drink, or whatever it is.
但这并不意味着它不会随着时间的推移而萎缩并消失，或者这个人会产生这样的反射性想法，例如，哦，又出现了我是失败者的想法，或者我应该割伤自己，或者我应该喝酒，或者诸如此类的想法。
And like, I know that thought appears in me automatically at times because it was in my head for so long.
就像，我知道这个想法有时会自动出现在我身上，因为它在我的脑海里呆了很长时间。
But it is not telling me anything, right?
但它没有告诉我任何事情，对吗？
It's just an automatic thought.
这只是一个自动的想法。
It's not telling me I should drink.
它并没有告诉我应该喝酒。
It's not telling me anything, right?
它没有告诉我任何事情，对吗？
Other than the fact that like, oh, that's what happens in human beings.
除了这样的事实，哦，这就是人类身上发生的事情。
That's how the self-understanding brings change in us and gets us over the barriers of, I've been trying this for...
这就是自我理解如何给我们带来改变，让我们跨越障碍，我一直在尝试这个......
What modern mental health would often have us think.
现代心理健康经常让我们思考什么。
I took the Celexa and I did the 10 sessions of CBT, like I'm a failure.
我服用了 Celexa，并进行了 10 次 CBT，就像我是个失败者一样。
Nothing will ever get better.
一切都不会变得更好。
A different framing that says, hey, this can get better over time, and my understanding, and my efforts, and my thought redirection, my behavioral changes all makes it better.
一个不同的框架说，嘿，随着时间的推移，这会变得更好，我的理解、我的努力、我的思想重定向、我的行为改变都让它变得更好。
And then those things I don't want in my head, they're going away.
然后那些我不想要的东西就消失了。
It's taking time, but they're going away.
这需要时间，但他们会离开。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm relieved to hear you say that one can have intrusive thoughts, and that one approach to dealing with those is to acknowledge them and look at them and not try and push them back deeper.
听到你说一个人可能会有侵入性想法，而处理这些想法的一种方法是承认它们并审视它们，而不是试图将它们推得更深，我感到很欣慰。
Not try and eradicate them.
不要试图消灭它们。
I'm familiar with having intrusive thoughts, not all the time, but at various periods throughout my life.
我很熟悉侵入性想法，不是一直，而是在我一生的不同时期。
And the idea that one can just extinguish them is a great idea, but that's simply not the way it's worked, at least not for me.
可以消灭它们的想法是一个好主意，但这根本不是它的工作方式，至少对我来说不是。
But I have found that if I just say, okay, this is spontaneously coming up through the neural circuits of my subconscious, and they're intrusive, and I don't like them, but I eventually arrive at exactly the place that you describe, which is that there's nothing actionable here.
但我发现，如果我只是说，好吧，这是通过我潜意识的神经回路自发出现的，它们是侵入性的，我不喜欢它们，但我最终会到达你所描述的地方，那就是这里没有任何可操作的地方。
They go from being intrusive and troubling to intrusive and just kind of mildly irritating to intrusive and okay.
它们从侵入性和麻烦到侵入性和轻微刺激到侵入性和好。
And yes, I go through some redirect, trying to redirect my attention from time to time when they're happening, but I eventually just get to a place where it's like, okay, it's just a boring story or boring imagery.
是的，我会经历一些重定向，试图在事情发生时时不时地转移我的注意力，但我最终只是到达一个地方，好吧，这只是一个无聊的故事或无聊的图像。
There's nothing there.
那里什么也没有。
There's nothing there.
那里什么也没有。
And then they eventually break up like clouds.
然后它们最终像云一样散开。
And that process can take a while, but-
这个过程可能需要一段时间，但是-
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Because you took the energy out of them.
因为你夺走了他们的能量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
You made them go away, which happened over time, and then the energy that was so powerful becomes less and less and less.
你让它们消失了，随着时间的推移，这种情况发生了，然后如此强大的能量变得越来越少。
And what happens?
会发生什么？
They dissipate.
它们消散了。
They atrophy.
他们萎缩了。
Right?
正确的？
That's how they go away, because there's no more power.
他们就是这样离开的，因为没有更多的力量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
There's no more power in them.
他们身上已经没有更多的力量了。
And that really is the way that we make change, and I think your emphasis upon the fact that it takes time, the fact that it takes effort, the fact that it only goes away slowly.
这确实是我们做出改变的方式，我认为你强调的事实是，这需要时间，需要努力，而且它只会慢慢消失。
Over 20 years of, at times, being a therapist, what I've seen be the most daunting, the thing that makes people just give up and go away and go back to the things that are bad, give up on themselves, are that it takes time.
20多年来，有时，作为一名治疗师，我所看到的最令人畏惧的事情是，让人们放弃、走开、回到那些不好的事情、放弃自己，这需要时间。
And if you think it's supposed to take two weeks, and the world around you is kind of leading you to think that, and then you go for help, and the help kind of leads you to think that, whether it's two weeks or it's 10 weeks, if it's going to take two years, you're going to go away disheartened, right?
如果你认为这需要两周的时间，而你周围的世界会引导你这样想，然后你去寻求帮助，而帮助会让你认为，无论是两周还是十周，如果需要两年的时间，你就会灰心丧气地离开，对吗？
Or maybe more angry at yourself or maybe demoralized.
或者可能对自己更生气或者士气低落。
So we have to look at the truth of all of this.
所以我们必须看看这一切的真相。
A parallel to your story, in my own life, for years and years and years, I carried a negative voice inside that was always waiting for me to do something wrong.
与你的故事类似，在我自己的生活中，多年来，我内心有一个消极的声音，总是等着我做错事。
So if I say something that's a little bit off or not exactly what I want to say now, it would say, "That wasn't good." It says something negative inside to me.
因此，如果我说的话有点偏离或者不完全是我现在想说的话，它会说，“那不好。”它告诉我内心有一些负面的东西。
Or it's waiting for me to drop something and say that I'm stupid and clumsy, right?
或者它在等我丢下什么东西，说我又笨又笨，对吧？
With me all the time.
一直和我在一起。
But over time, through self-reflection, through therapy, through a lot of hard work, but a desire for things to be better and a desire to understand it, it's not there anymore.
但随着时间的推移，通过自我反省，通过治疗，通过大量的努力，但对事情变得更好的渴望和理解它的渴望，它不再存在了。
Every now and then, it'll raise its head.
时不时地，它就会抬起头来。
I'll do something really-- I dropped a cup of coffee.
我会做点真正的事——我掉了一杯咖啡。
I haven't done it in 10 years, and it made a mess, and now people are coming to clean it up, and man, the voice came back.
我已经十年没做过了，弄得一团糟，现在人们来清理了，天啊，声音又回来了。
Right?
正确的？
But I could recognize it.
但我能认出来。
I really feel bad about this, and now it gives that voice a chance to come out, but it doesn't come out much anymore, whereas I lived with it for years.
我真的对此感到难过，现在它给了那个声音一个出来的机会，但它不再出来了，而我和它一起生活了很多年。
It doesn't come out much anymore.
它不再出来了。
And when it came out, not that long ago, I could recognize it.
当它问世时，不久前，我就认出了它。
I'm not happy I did this, and let me help clean it up.
我不高兴我这样做了，让我帮忙清理一下。
But it doesn't mean I'm an idiot, right?
但这并不意味着我是个白痴，对吧？
So the voice in my head can just go away, as I've been helping it to do for a bunch of years now.
这样我脑子里的声音就可以消失了，就像我多年来一直在帮助它做到的那样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I think also important for people to understand is that it takes time, but that we can all potentially engage in right actions, moving towards strivings and hopefulness as we cope with those and try and diminish those internal narratives.
我认为对人们来说同样重要的是要理解，这需要时间，但我们都可以采取正确的行动，在应对这些问题并尝试减少这些内部叙事时朝着努力和希望迈进。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Those intrusive thoughts.
那些侵入性的想法。
It's not as if during the entire process you can't function.
并不是说在整个过程中你就无法发挥作用。
I think that it's cognitively and sometimes even physically demanding to do, but we can still engage in healthy ways in the world, and we can still try and avoid acting out and avoid forms of denial.
我认为这在认知上，有时甚至在体力上要求很高，但我们仍然可以以健康的方式参与世界，我们仍然可以尝试避免表现出来并避免各种形式的否认。
And as I say this, I'm realizing that the wish for or the impulse to really just suppress intrusive thought borne of trauma or whatever else is really futile.
当我这么说时，我意识到真正抑制由创伤或其他原因带来的侵入性思想的愿望或冲动实际上是徒劳的。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's not going to work.
那是行不通的。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
It just doesn't.
事实并非如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not going to work.
这是行不通的。
We have to embrace these narratives and not expect them to disappear in a finger snap, but embrace them and see them and look at them and be unafraid to look at them and discount where they are absolutely not true.
我们必须接受这些叙述，不要指望它们会在弹指间消失，而是拥抱它们，看到它们，审视它们，不要害怕审视它们，并在它们绝对不真实的地方打折扣。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
I would say unafraid to understand.
我会说不怕理解。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right?
对吗？
Because we must understand.
因为我们必须明白。
Means we must look at what's going on inside of us.
意味着我们必须看看我们内心正在发生什么。
When I didn't like that voice but was afraid of it, like, "What is going on inside of me?
当我不喜欢那个声音但又害怕它时，就像，“我内心发生了什么？
What does this say about me?" And I'm directing away from it.
这对我来说意味着什么？”我正在远离它。
Well, that's why it was with me for several decades, right?
好吧，这就是为什么它伴随了我几十年，对吧？
But when I start to go look at it, I can find an answer to it.
但当我开始去看它时，我就能找到答案。
And again, you have to look at what's going on in that person, because one might presume, and maybe people listening are presuming this or maybe not, but a reasonable presumption that might just reflexively happen in a person would be to think that, oh, when I was younger, the messaging I was getting was that you're not good enough.
再说一次，你必须看看那个人身上发生了什么，因为人们可能会假设，也许听的人会假设这一点，也可能不会，但一个人可能会条件反射地发生的合理假设是，认为，哦，当我年轻的时候，我得到的信息是你不够好。
Right?
正确的？
You're not good enough.
你还不够好。
That's why I carry with me the "you're not good enough," right?
这就是为什么我总是带着“你不够好”的原因，对吧？
But it's not that.
但事实并非如此。
Sometimes it's the opposite.
有时恰恰相反。
That I was rewarded a lot when I was younger for doing things in a way everyone thought was great.
当我年轻的时候，我因为以每个人都认为伟大的方式做事而得到了很多回报。
Right?
正确的？
Like getting great grades and being well-behaved and doing all sorts of things that brought a lot of positive reinforcement to me.
比如取得好成绩、表现良好以及做各种给我带来很多积极强化的事情。
But I never handled well things that fell even a little bit short of that, and then it would evoke a lot of shame.
但我从来没有处理好事情，哪怕是差一点点，就会引起很大的耻辱。
So the oppression inside is not coming from denigration, it's coming from something different.
所以内心的压迫不是来自诋毁，而是来自不同的东西。
Right?
正确的？
Which is also why this is not a search to blame someone.
这也是为什么这不是责怪某人的原因。
Right?
正确的？
Because sometimes the people who are giving the message, they're doing the best they can.
因为有时传达信息的人会尽力而为。
Someone who's saying to a child, "You're a loser," that's not okay.
有人对孩子说“你是个失败者”，这是不对的。
Right?
正确的？
No matter what, that's not okay.
不管怎样，这都不行。
But that's often not how it happens.
但事情往往并非如此。
The parent, like you says, communicating, they don't realize that every time they're admiring a certain level of wealth or a certain kind of beauty, they're giving that message that the child that doesn't meet that or ends up not meeting that isn't good enough.
父母，就像你说的，在交流时，他们没有意识到，每次他们欣赏一定程度的财富或某种美丽时，他们都在传达这样的信息：孩子没有达到这个水平，或者最终没有达到这个水平，这还不够好。
But they don't know that.
但他们不知道这一点。
Or my parents tried to nurture me, and they did a good job of it in many ways, and teachers did a good job.
或者我的父母试图培养我，他们在很多方面都做得很好，老师也做得很好。
But so they're not realizing, hey, this person's going to end up a bunch of years from now not thinking anything's good enough.
但他们没有意识到，嘿，这个人在几年后最终会觉得一切都不够好。
They don't know that.
他们不知道这一点。
So it's not a search for blame.
所以这不是寻找指责。
And I think that's very important.
我认为这非常重要。
Very important.
非常重要。
Because often people don't want to look inside because they think either I'm going to find something dramatically wrong with me.
因为人们常常不愿意审视自己的内心，因为他们认为我会发现自己有很大的问题。
And the answer I would give is there's almost surely not something dramatically wrong with you if you're having that thought And if somehow there is, you're better off looking at it now than later, right?
我给出的答案是，如果你有这样的想法，几乎可以肯定你没有什么严重的问题，如果有的话，你最好现在就看，而不是以后再看，对吧？
And so that's part of it.
这就是其中的一部分。
The other part is that people become worried that they're going to ruin something.
另一部分是人们开始担心他们会毁掉一些东西。
"I like my parents, and if I go look at this, I'm going to hate them." People say things or think things like that, and the idea that we may get down to something that really involves someone being responsible for something bad.
“我喜欢我的父母，如果我去看这个，我会恨他们。”人们会说或想这样的事情，我们可能会认真对待一些真正涉及某人对坏事负责的事情。
Now, if that's the truth, the person already knows that inside, the vast majority of times.
现在，如果这是事实，那么这个人在绝大多数情况下已经知道了这一点。
They know that, they're just not facing that.
他们知道这一点，只是他们没有面对这一点。
But most of the time also, it's not that.
但大多数时候，情况并非如此。
It's just like, okay, that's how life evolved, and what's the predisposition?
就像，好吧，生命就是这样进化的，它的倾向是什么？
Like, I was smart enough to get good grades, and I have a low threshold for shame, and people reinforced me, and like, oh, I can kind of understand that, so then I can get control over it.
就像，我足够聪明，能够取得好成绩，而且我羞耻的门槛很低，人们强化了我，就像，哦，我可以理解这一点，这样我就可以控制它。
It's not a search for anger, frustration, blame of self or others.
这不是寻找愤怒、沮丧、自我或他人的责备。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And oftentimes, I hear that people are afraid of dealing with these deeper issues or addressing these deeper issues for fear that they'll lose, say, their drive, right?
我经常听说人们害怕处理这些更深层次的问题或解决这些更深层次的问题，因为担心他们会失去动力，对吧？
The thing that makes them successful in the first place and that allows them perhaps even to afford therapy or afford the time to think about these sorts of questions.
这首先使他们成功，甚至使他们能够负担得起治疗费用或有时间思考此类问题。
So it seems to me that the drives that you referred to earlier, the generative drive, the aggressive drive, and the pleasure drive, are such critical nodes or areas to look for all of us in terms of figuring out whether or not we're doing well or less well, according to some features that are pretty much universal in people.
因此，在我看来，你之前提到的内驱力，即生成内驱力、攻击性内驱力和快乐内驱力，是我们所有人都需要寻找的关键节点或领域，根据人类中几乎普遍存在的一些特征来判断我们做得好还是不好。
Essentially what I'm saying is, at least by my understanding, we all have drives to some extent or another, and to the extent that our aggressive drive is very high and pleasure drive is very high, and whether or not it's pointed in the right direction, it can be generative.
从本质上讲，我想说的是，至少根据我的理解，我们都在某种程度上具有驱动力，并且在某种程度上，我们的攻击性驱动力非常高，快乐驱动力非常高，无论它是否指向正确的方向，它都可以产生生产力。
If it's not, perhaps it can undermine our generative drive.
如果不是，也许它会破坏我们的生成动力。
I'm very curious to know how you've observed the different ranges of these drives in people and how that predicts whether or not people will do more or less well in different areas of life.
我很好奇你是如何观察人们这些驱动力的不同范围的，以及如何预测人们在生活的不同领域会做得或多或少。
Essentially, how the different drives play out.
本质上，不同的驱动器如何发挥作用。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
I think the first thing to say is where the drives are at, so to speak, in any of us, is a combination of nature and nurture.
我认为首先要说的是，我们任何人的内驱力在哪里，可以说是先天和后天的结合。
So the nature part tells us the range that the drive is going to be.
因此，自然部分告诉我们驱动器的范围。
But because nurture means so much to humans, as we understand it from epigenetics, from the advancement of science, we see more and more and more how much nurture matters.
但由于教养对人类来说意义重大，正如我们从表观遗传学和科学进步中所理解的那样，我们越来越多地看到教养的重要性。
So the range that's denoted by nature is probably pretty broad, and we see the manifestation of that.
因此，自然所表示的范围可能相当广泛，我们看到了它的表现。
And then the nurture lets us then move that drive.
然后，培育让我们能够推动这种动力。
Now, sometimes, nurture that's not gone in the right place can move the drive in the wrong direction, right?
现在，有时，没有在正确的地方进行的培养可能会将驱动力推向错误的方向，对吧？
But as adults, as people who can take care of ourselves, who can learn about ourselves, we can change where the drives are seated.
但作为成年人，作为能够照顾自己、能够了解自己的人，我们可以改变驱动器所在的位置。
It's not an easy thing to do because it requires a lot of changes of self, with self-knowledge and hard work, but we can do it, right?
这不是一件容易的事，因为它需要自我的很多改变，需要自知之明和努力，但我们可以做到，对吗？
We can change the array of how those drives are manifesting themselves within us.
我们可以改变这些驱动力在我们体内的表现方式。
And we see that.
我们看到了这一点。
That's part of the hopefulness of mental health treatment, right?
这是心理健康治疗希望的一部分，对吗？
That we see not just surface changes, but we can see changes on a deeper level.
我们不仅能看到表面的变化，还能看到更深层次的变化。
So I think it's important that these things are not fixed, although there are some natural elements.
所以我认为重要的是这些事情不是固定的，尽管有一些自然因素。
Someone who may have a natural low aggression or low self-assertion, okay, it's going to be in the lower range, but it doesn't mean that it's locked in at any one particular point.
一个可能天生具有低攻击性或低自我主张的人，好吧，它会处于较低的范围内，但这并不意味着它被锁定在任何一个特定的点上。
And that the place that we want to be, what is the place that's consistent with the things that we want?
我们想要成为的地方，与我们想要的东西一致的地方是什么？
The agency and gratitude as verbs and the sense of wellbeing and all of that.
作为动词的代理和感激以及幸福感等等。
So the idea is the state of health has the generative drive as prominent, right?
所以这个想法是健康状况具有同样突出的生成动力，对吧？
It's the dominant drive.
这是主导驱动力。
And then aggression and pleasure, which are still active in us, but they're subserving the generative drive.
然后是攻击性和快乐，它们在我们体内仍然活跃，但它们正在促进生成动力。
And that's the state that we wish to be in.
这就是我们希望处于的状态。
So when we're assessing, okay, why is there something that doesn't feel okay or something that's not going okay, right?
所以当我们评估时，好吧，为什么会有一些感觉不太好的事情或者事情进展不顺利，对吧？
Then one way to start is to look at, okay, what's going on in the person?
那么一种开始的方法就是看看这个人身上发生了什么？
What may be off in the drives?
驱动器中可能出现什么问题？
That gives us a very strong idea of, okay, what's going on, a way of understanding what's going on as we then go and look in the 10 cupboards to figure out the specifics.
这让我们对正在发生的事情有一个非常强烈的想法，一种了解正在发生的事情的方式，然后我们去查看 10 个橱柜以找出具体情况。
Okay, what is actually going on here that we can then change?
好吧，这里到底发生了什么我们可以改变的事情？
But the framing of what's going on can come through the lens of looking at the drives and how they manifest in us.
但我们可以通过观察内驱力以及它们在我们身上的表现来了解正在发生的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What does it look like when the aggressive drive is very high and the pleasure drive is also very high?
当攻击性驱动力非常高并且愉悦性驱动力也非常高时，会是什么样子？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
So if these drives are running too high, where we end up at is in a place of envy, right?
因此，如果这些驱动器运行得太高，我们最终会陷入嫉妒的境地，对吗？
And envy, I'm always on the soapbox about envy because I think envy is just so wildly destructive.
还有嫉妒，我总是在肥皂剧中谈论嫉妒，因为我认为嫉妒具有如此巨大的破坏性。
And if the aggressive drive is very high, so the person, say, one way this can manifest itself, just wants more and more and more, right?
如果攻击性驱力非常高，那么这个人，比如说，这种表现的一种方式，就是想要越来越多，对吗？
They're not getting satisfaction from anything, but they want more.
他们没有从任何事情中得到满足，但他们想要更多。
That may be because of a strong vulnerability inside of them.
这可能是因为他们内心有很强的脆弱性。
So something that might map to narcissism, for example.
例如，这可能会导致自恋。
There could be a strong aggressive drive to get more, and that leads to something that's very unhealthy.
可能会有强烈的侵略性冲动去获得更多，而这会导致非常不健康的事情。
So the idea that I want more, I need more, I don't have enough, I can't get enough, then fosters envy, right?
因此，“我想要更多，我需要更多，我没有足够，我无法得到足够”的想法就会滋生嫉妒，对吗？
Which is not the desire to be better or to have more, but it's just the desire to feel better about the self, whether that involves raising the self up or bringing someone else down.
这并不是渴望变得更好或拥有更多，而只是渴望自我感觉更好，无论这涉及抬高自己还是贬低别人。
That's why envy is destructive.
这就是为什么嫉妒具有破坏性。
So very high levels of aggression that are not tempered, for example, by a generative drive that would also be high, then create a circumstance of envy, and the envy is destructive.
因此，非常高水平的攻击性如果没有通过例如也很高的生成驱动力来调节，就会产生嫉妒的情况，而嫉妒是具有破坏性的。
And the same happens if the pleasure drive is very, very strong.
如果快乐驱动力非常非常强，也会发生同样的情况。
So if one continues to want more pleasure, so I can't find any satisfaction, I don't feel good about myself I feel bereft inside, and I see that pleasure can make me feel better, but just for a little bit.
所以，如果一个人继续想要更多的快乐，那么我就找不到任何满足，我对自己感觉不好，我内心感到失落，我发现快乐可以让我感觉更好，但只是一点点。
Then it fades away and I want more of it and I want more of it.
然后它就消失了，我想要更多，我想要更多。
That also can lead to the place of envy.
这也会导致令人羡慕的地方。
That's the outcome.
这就是结果。
So if the aggressive drive is running very high, or the pleasure drive is running very high, or if both are running very high, but it only takes one in order to end up in a place of envy.
因此，如果攻击性驱力非常高，或者享乐性驱力非常高，或者两者都非常高，但只需要其中之一就能最终陷入令人羡慕的境地。
So if the generative drive is not high enough to overcome how high the aggressive drive is, which would mean then the aggressive drive would be sublimated towards good, productive things.
因此，如果生成性内驱力不足以克服攻击性内驱力，这意味着攻击性内驱力将升华为美好的、富有成效的事物。
So take the energy and put it towards something that is goodness.
因此，把精力投入到善良的事情上。
But if the aggressive drive was way out there ahead of the generative drive, that ends up in a place of envy, as does the pleasure drive.
但如果攻击性内驱力远远领先于生成性内驱力，那么最终就会陷入嫉妒的境地，快乐内驱力也是如此。
If I want more and more and more, but I never get satisfaction from anything, it never brings me any sense of goodness, that where it ends is in a place of vulnerability and resentment.
如果我想要越来越多，但我从来没有从任何事情中得到满足，它永远不会给我带来任何美好的感觉，它的终点就是脆弱和怨恨。
Because envy involves wanting more.
因为嫉妒意味着想要更多。
And envy, if we look at what's really going on, envy under the surface involves wanting everything.
而嫉妒，如果我们看看到底发生了什么，就会发现表面之下的嫉妒意味着想要一切。
If a person is at the outer limits of envy.
如果一个人处于嫉妒的外部界限。
Which is why envy is so destructive, because if I can't get enough pleasure and there's so much aggression in me, then I'm not going to make myself feel better, but what I can do is make other people feel worse.
这就是为什么嫉妒如此具有破坏性，因为如果我无法获得足够的快乐并且我内心有太多的攻击性，那么我不会让自己感觉更好，但我能做的就是让其他人感觉更糟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I want to ask you more about envy, but first I wanted to ask, is one way to characterize the generative drive and to distinguish it from the other drives is to say that generative drives are prosocial?
我想问你更多关于嫉妒的问题，但首先我想问，表征生成内驱力并将其与其他内驱力区分开来的一种方法是说生成内驱力是亲社会的吗？
Meaning they tend to bring about benevolent interactions between people.
这意味着它们往往会带来人与人之间的善意互动。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
In the sense that prosocial as constructive.
从某种意义上说，亲社会是建设性的。
In a sense, building goodness, then yes, because it's the drive in us that makes us want to love and nurture things.
从某种意义上说，建立善良，那么是的，因为它是我们内心的动力，让我们想要爱和培育事物。
That makes us want to learn and sometimes learn to make better in the world or learn for learning's sake.
这让我们想要学习，有时学习是为了让世界变得更好，或者为了学习而学习。
That the drive is a drive of goodness.
这种驱动力是一种善良的驱动力。
So if the drive is then going to enact itself in the world around us, it's going to be prosocial, because we exist as social units.
因此，如果这种驱动力要在我们周围的世界中发挥作用，它将是亲社会的，因为我们作为社会单位而存在。
If we decide, oh, I want to be an island off somewhere, that's not healthy.
如果我们决定，哦，我想成为某个地方的一座岛屿，那是不健康的。
We exist in social units from small, like a nuclear family, to a neighborhood, all the way up to nations and to the planet.
我们存在于从小的社会单位中，如核心家庭，到社区，一直到国家和地球。
So if we perceive the truth of that, that, hey, there's an interdependence be- between me and others, and I see that, then the drive will lead to choices and behaviors that are socially constructive.
因此，如果我们认识到这一点的真相，即，嘿，我和他人之间存在相互依赖，并且我看到了这一点，那么这种动力将导致对社会具有建设性的选择和行为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Earlier, you talked about aggression, and you were clear to make sure that we all understood that aggression does not necessarily mean violent aggression.
早些时候，您谈到了侵略，并且您明确地确保我们都明白侵略并不一定意味着暴力侵略。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That there are different forms of aggression.
攻击有不同的形式。
I'm curious if you could give us some examples of how you've observed people with high levels of aggression and high levels of pleasure drive as well, both male and female.
我很好奇你能否给我们举一些例子，说明你如何观察具有高攻击性和高快乐欲的人，无论是男性还是女性。
And here, without defaulting to stereotypes, I think a lot of people just, despite the fact that you've clarified what aggression is and isn't in the context of this conversation, we hear the word aggression and we think verbal attack, physical attack.
在这里，在不默认刻板印象的情况下，我认为很多人只是，尽管你已经澄清了在这次谈话的背景下什么是侵略，什么不是侵略，我们听到“侵略”这个词，我们想到的是言语攻击、身体攻击。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
However, the way you're describing aggression and the aggressive drive, I have a feeling that you're referring to other expressions of aggression as well.
然而，从你描述攻击性和攻击性驱动力的方式来看，我感觉你也在指其他攻击性的表达方式。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
So if the aggressive drive is running too high, and that could have factors of nature, factors of nurture, factors of the situation the person is in, factors of their whole life, but it ends up, at the moment, in a place that is too high, then what that person is doing, in one way or another, is to try and exert an unhealthy level of control.
因此，如果攻击性驱力太高，可能有先天因素、后天因素、个人所处环境因素、一生因素，但最终最终达到了太高的程度，那么这个人所做的就是以某种方式试图施加一种不健康的控制水平。
And that can be done in so many different ways.
这可以通过多种不同的方式来完成。
It can be done in that overt way of just intimidating people, of using harsh language towards people.
它可以通过公开的方式来完成，只是恐吓人们，对人们使用严厉的语言。
It can be done by manipulating people.
这可以通过操纵人来完成。
It can be done through passive aggression.
这可以通过被动攻击来完成。
There are all sorts of ways that the person can try and exert unhealthy control, but that's where we end up if there's too much expression of the aggressive drive in us.
人们可以通过各种各样的方式尝试施加不健康的控制，但如果我们过多地表达出攻击性的冲动，那么我们最终就会陷入这样的境地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That makes sense, and it reminds me of an example from my own life where, first off, I should say I've had almost exclusively positive collaborations among my colleagues at Stanford and elsewhere.
这是有道理的，它让我想起了我自己生活中的一个例子，首先，我应该说，我在斯坦福大学和其他地方的同事之间几乎完全是积极的合作。
Every one of those collaborations has ended in a paper that we were all happy with, but more importantly, the relationships grew and were not diminished.
每一次合作都以一篇我们都很满意的论文结束，但更重要的是，我们之间的关系不断发展并且没有减弱。
But I had one collaboration with someone not to be named, where it was going very well, but I had the need to reschedule an appointment.
但我和一位不愿透露姓名的人有过一次合作，进展顺利，但我需要重新安排约会。
So I sent ahead a note about the fact that my car needed dealing with.
所以我提前发了一张纸条，说明我的车需要处理。
I had some other things.
我还有一些其他的事情。
I explained why I need to reschedule the appointment.
我解释了为什么我需要重新安排约会。
And didn't receive a reply, which was a little unusual.
并且没有收到回复，这有点不寻常。
But then eventually received a reply that said, "Well, it's clear that you don't want to pursue this collaboration," which is the furthest thing from the truth.
但最终收到的回复是：“嗯，很明显你不想继续这种合作”，这与事实相去甚远。
And so I expressed that, and then the collaboration was reinstated.
所以我表达了这一点，然后合作就恢复了。
But it brought to mind some concern for me, because it was sort of an extreme reaction to something that happens among academics, or anyone.
但这让我想起了一些担忧，因为这是对学者或任何人之间发生的事情的一种极端反应。
We get busy, things come up.
我们很忙，事情就发生了。
It was important to tend to.
照顾它很重要。
The car, that is.
汽车，就是这样。
And then at some point later, they were late to a number of meetings.
后来的某个时候，他们在几次会议上都迟到了。
Okay, no big deal.
好吧，没什么大不了的。
We're academics.
我们是学者。
We tend to run late.
我们往往会迟到。
That's typical of many academics.
这是许多学者的典型特征。
But then I was late once to a meeting, and they essentially left and wrote an email that said something of the sort like, "I've got my own great ideas, so I'm no longer interested in pursuing the collaboration."
但有一次我在一次会议上迟到了，他们基本上就离开了，并写了一封电子邮件，其中内容是这样的：“我有自己的好主意，所以我不再对寻求合作感兴趣。”
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I was pretty shocked, because there was nothing really outside the ordinary in terms of busyness and professorial schedules, and there were other people involved, post-docs and things like that.
我非常震惊，因为就忙碌和教授日程而言，没有什么真正不寻常的，而且还有其他人参与其中，博士后之类的。
And there was a great project to be To be worked out.
还有一个伟大的项目有待完成。
So I remember being disappointed, but also really kind of surprised.
所以我记得很失望，但也确实有点惊讶。
But then when I mapped it back to the earlier example of the-
但是当我将它映射回之前的示例时-
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
car incident, I thought, well, there's a real sort of lack of ability of this person to handle disappointment, and yet they're exerting or demonstrating, rather, some of the same behavior of occasionally running tardy and these kinds of things.
车祸，我想，这个人确实缺乏处理失望的能力，但他们却在表现或表现出一些偶尔迟到之类的相同行为。
And I remember feeling like it was pretty aggressive.
我记得感觉它非常具有侵略性。
It's a pretty aggressive reaction to something that could've been handled with a conversation.
对于本来可以通过对话解决的事情，这是一种相当激进的反应。
Now, I must say, I'm very grateful that the collaboration didn't proceed and it went elsewhere and it worked out great, and they're doing great, and we're doing great, and so no hard feelings.
现在，我必须说，我非常感激合作没有继续进行，而是去了其他地方，效果很好，他们做得很好，我们也做得很好，所以没有什么难受的感觉。
But it stands out to me as a pretty salient example of aggression, but not played out at the level of yelling or anything.
但在我看来，这是一个非常明显的攻击性例子，但并没有以大喊大叫或其他任何方式表现出来。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's a passivity in there, but then there's also a kind of entitlement.
其中有一种被动性，但也有一种权利。
And here, of course, I'm only looking at the other person's behavior, and I should acknowledge, I realize canceling, not good, being late, not good, but listen, I'm a human being, and I-
当然，在这里，我只关注对方的行为，我应该承认，我意识到取消，不好，迟到，不好，但是听着，我是一个人，而且我-
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
But you canceled once, you were late once.
但你取消过一次，你迟到过一次。
This isn't-
这不是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
...
...
this isn't habitual.
这不习惯。
This is human stuff, right?
这是人类的东西，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
And a lot of good work had gone into the project.
该项目已经投入了大量的工作。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there was a cost where most importantly, the post-docs suffered because they weren't involved in these interactions at all, and yet the project halted at that point.
最重要的是，这是有成本的，博士后遭受了损失，因为他们根本没有参与这些互动，但项目却在那时停止了。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So to me, that seems like an example of somebody who has a, well, strong aggressive drive, and that's clear from they are incredibly successful in the academic domain.
所以对我来说，这似乎是一个具有强烈进取心的人的例子，从他们在学术领域取得的令人难以置信的成功中可以清楚地看出这一点。
And when disappointed, lashes back or is passive, one or the other.
当失望时，要么反击，要么消极，两者兼而有之。
Is that kind of what we're getting at here?
这就是我们现在要说的吗？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not surprisingly, perhaps, the person rarely publishes with other people.
这个人很少与其他人一起发表文章，这也许并不奇怪。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Probably that doesn't make a very good collaborative partner.
也许这并不是一个很好的合作伙伴。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
And it totally makes sense.
这完全有道理。
Think about what you're describing here, right?
想想你在这里所描述的，对吗？
Which is some vulnerability in the person.
这是人身上的一些弱点。
There's some way in which the person doesn't feel good enough, no matter what this person has achieved.
无论这个人取得了什么成就，在某种程度上，这个人都会感觉不够好。
So then there's a sense of the need and the right to over control.
因此，人们有一种过度控制的需要和权利。
So when you agree to work together, you didn't agree that I'll never have to cancel anything, right?
所以当你同意一起工作时，你并不同意我永远不必取消任何事情，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
But the thought was different.
但想法不同。
The framing is different on the other end, that now we're going to work together, right?
另一端的框架不同，现在我们要一起工作，对吧？
So I'm exerting significant control over you, right?
所以我对你施加了很大的控制，对吗？
And again, you're not aware of it, right?
再说一次，你没有意识到这一点，对吗？
And maybe that he's not aware of it.
也许他并没有意识到这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In this case, it was a she.
在这种情况下，是一个她。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Oh, okay.
哦，好吧。
So I was thinking of someone different, but she has to have some deficit of self that results then in the reflexive need to over control.
所以我想到了一个不同的人，但她必须有一些自我缺陷，从而导致本能地需要过度控制。
And think about the first response is a non-response, right?
想想第一反应就是无反应，对吗？
Which is, that's aggression, but it's just passive aggression, right?
也就是说，这是侵略，但只是被动的侵略，对吗？
The thought would be, well, you're worried, something doesn't feel good in you because I didn't respond.
你的想法是，好吧，你很担心，因为我没有回应，你感觉不太舒服。
Which was true, right?
这是真的，对吧？
You're expecting a response.
您正在等待回复。
Maybe you don't know.
也许你不知道。
Did she get the email?
她收到电子邮件了吗？
What's happening?
发生什么事了？
Is she mad?
她生气了吗？
So it's sort of effective.
所以这有点有效。
It creates some consternation and some dissonance in you, right?
它给你带来了一些惊愕和不和谐，对吧？
Then on top of that, the person is willing to potentially, at that point, sacrifice the relationship, right?
然后最重要的是，这个人愿意在那时潜在地牺牲这段关系，对吗？
So you think about aggression now is not good, right?
所以你认为现在攻击性不好，对吗？
This excess aggression is not good for you.
这种过度的攻击性对你没有好处。
It also is clearly eclipsing the generative drive, right?
它也明显使生成动力黯然失色，对吗？
Because it's not good for this person and their research.
因为这对这个人和他们的研究都不好。
It's not good for this person and the post-docs in their lab, right?
这对这个人和他们实验室的博士后来说都不好，对吧？
But the person is willing to accept that in the service of gratifying the excess in aggression.
但为了满足过度的攻击性，人们愿意接受这一点。
Now, so then you said something that then sort of made it okay, right?
现在，你说了一些事情，然后就没事了，对吧？
For the short term.
对于短期而言。
Okay, then the person feels gratified.
好吧，那人就感到欣慰了。
Whether you apologized or not, they took it as you've, to some degree, bowed down before me, now it'll be okay, at least for the short term, right?
不管你道歉与否，他们都认为你在某种程度上在我面前屈服了，现在就可以了，至少短期内是这样，对吧？
But then the next thing that happens, it actually does end the collaboration, right?
但接下来发生的事情，实际上确实结束了合作，对吗？
So that's not good, right?
所以这不太好，对吧？
And you say even from a self-serving perspective, that person was collaborating with you for a reason, right?
你说即使从自私的角度来看，那个人与你合作也是有原因的，对吧？
She saw a benefit to the science that she's very, very interested in through the collaboration with you, but then let that all go.
通过与你的合作，她看到了她非常非常感兴趣的科学的好处，但随后就放弃了。
Right?
正确的？
In the service of what?
为了什么服务？
In the service of the ego, right?
为自我服务，对吧？
Of I don't feel good enough about myself, right?
我对自己感觉不够好，对吗？
The response to that then is a response of envy.
对此的反应是嫉妒的反应。
That I don't like that you have the freedom to behave differently than I want you to, right?
我不喜欢你有做出与我希望你不同的行为的自由，对吗？
I don't like any of it.
我不喜欢其中任何一个。
I don't like that I don't control you as much as I would like to, and ultimately, it's that envy that becomes destructive.
我不喜欢我没有像我想的那样控制你，最终，嫉妒变得具有破坏性。
So it's a setback for that person.
所以这对那个人来说是一个挫折。
It's destructive of the science that person was doing.
它破坏了人们所做的科学。
It's destructive of the science that you were doing.
这破坏了你所做的科学。
So envy is destructive, and here, the high level of aggression, the aggressive drive is at a very high place.
所以嫉妒是具有破坏性的，在这里，攻击性、攻击性的驱动力处于非常高的水平。
It's exceeding the generative drive.
它超出了生成驱动力。
The pleasure drive isn't high enough either because there's not enough pleasure coming from the great science that's being done, right?
快乐驱动力也不够高，因为正在进行的伟大科学没有带来足够的快乐，对吗？
So then the person is approaching the world through the lens of envy, right?
那么这个人是通过嫉妒的镜头来接近世界的，对吗？
They don't feel good enough.
他们感觉不够好。
They want to exert that aggression through over control, and what they end up doing is destructive, right?
他们想通过过度控制来发挥侵略性，而他们最终所做的就是破坏性的，对吗？
And it's very clearly destructive.
而且它的破坏性非常明显。
It's a great example because it's destructive of the science, which is ostensibly the reason that you're there, right?
这是一个很好的例子，因为它破坏了科学，这表面上就是你在那里的原因，对吧？
It's the reason you were there.
这就是你在那里的原因。
But someone who needs to exert over control is there not just for that reason, and then the other reasons can trump the generative reason that they're there.
但需要施加控制的人不仅仅是因为这个原因，然后其他原因可以胜过他们在那里的生成原因。
And that's how envy, when it is the product of aggression or pleasure-seeking being too high, always, unfailingly, creates destruction.
这就是嫉妒的原因，当它是侵略性或过度追求享乐的产物时，它总是毫无例外地造成破坏。
And how different is that from agency and gratitude as active verbs, right?
这与作为主动动词的代理和感激有何不同，对吧？
There's a sense of agency, but the agency isn't being exactly enacted, because if the agency is being enacted in the service of science or career or whatever it may be, that's not That's not going so well.
有一种代理意识，但该机构并没有被完全颁布，因为如果该机构的颁布是为了科学或职业或其他任何可能的服务，那就不会那么顺利。
And the gratitude part isn't active.
而感恩的部分并不活跃。
Like, my goodness, I'm here.
就像，天哪，我在这里。
I have this great career.
我有这个伟大的事业。
I'm discovering things.
我正在发现一些事情。
I get to spend my life in science.
我要把我的一生都花在科学上。
I get to collaborate with you.
我要和你合作。
There's so many things to feel good about.
有很多事情可以让人感觉良好。
I have post-docs in my lab.
我的实验室有博士后。
I get to nurture them because I know more, and I can guide.
我能够培养他们，因为我知道更多，而且我可以指导。
That's not leading.
那不是领先。
Envy is not those things, which is why people who are doing that, at least in this realm of life, although this often bleeds into other realms of life, what you, the vast majority of times, you see is someone who does not have happiness.
嫉妒不是那些事情，这就是为什么人们这样做，至少在这个生活领域，尽管这经常渗透到生活的其他领域，但你，绝大多数时候，你看到的是一个没有幸福的人。
In the way that we have happiness with the quotes.
以我们对报价感到满意的方式。
That happiness is the sense of peace.
那种幸福就是平静的感觉。
The sense of well-being.
幸福感。
This being able to delight in things, contentment.
这就是能够对事物感到高兴、知足。
The person doesn't have that.
这个人没有那个。
And here, it's interesting.
在这里，很有趣。
This person gets to the highest levels of academia, and they're very successful, and they have a lab of their own, and they're collaborating.
这个人达到了学术界的最高水平，他们非常成功，他们有自己的实验室，而且他们正在合作。
You think that's all great.
你认为这一切都很棒。
But not inside of them.
但不在他们里面。
It's not bringing them those things, as evidenced by how this person is behaving.
它并没有给他们带来那些东西，正如这个人的行为所证明的那样。
And I would bet almost 100% if you say, "What's that person like in other aspects of life?" At least in the professional realm, probably in others, too.
如果你问“那个人在生活的其他方面是什么样的？”我几乎可以 100% 打赌。至少在专业领域，可能在其他领域也是如此。
No one's going to describe a happy person.
没有人会描述一个快乐的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So much of what you just said captures this individual extremely well.
你刚才所说的很多内容都非常准确地描述了这个人。
And it also reminds me that so much of the way that you're describing this aggressive drive can also be observed perhaps in the way that people show up to social interactions.
这也提醒我，你所描述的这种攻击性驱动力的大部分方式也可以通过人们在社交互动中表现出来的方式来观察。
Not necessarily big interactions, maybe even just interactions between two people.
不一定是大型互动，甚至可能只是两个人之间的互动。
What I'm thinking of here is the person, male or female, who shows up and just kind of takes over.
我在这里想到的是出现并接管的人，无论男性还是女性。
Talks the whole time and tells stories.
一直在说话并讲故事。
I went to a meal when I graduated university, and someone showed up for the first time at this meal, meaning we had never met them before, and just sat down and just started telling stories for an hour.
我大学毕业的时候去吃饭，第一次有人出现在这顿饭上，这意味着我们以前从未见过他们，然后就坐下来开始讲一个小时的故事。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it was interesting.
这很有趣。
Portions of it were captivating.
其中的某些部分令人着迷。
And then at some point, I realized, this is either total pathology, like this person is crazy, but they weren't crazy, or they have no recognition that they're absorbing all the oxygen in the room, as it's sometimes described.
然后在某个时刻，我意识到，这要么是彻底的病态，就像这个人疯了，但他们并没有疯，或者他们没有意识到自己正在吸收房间里的所有氧气，正如有时所描述的那样。
But it seemed like they had this need to just control the whole environment by way of speech, just like fire hose stories.
但他们似乎有这种需要，只是通过言语来控制整个环境，就像消防水龙故事一样。
And I've seen this definitely in the academic realm.
我在学术领域确实看到了这一点。
I've seen this in the non-academic realm, in social settings.
我在非学术领域、社交场合也看到过这种情况。
And what's interesting is perhaps why this person does this, or these people do this, but what's also interesting is how people react to it.
有趣的也许是为什么这个人这样做，或者这些人这样做，但同样有趣的是人们对此的反应。
On the one hand, I think most people find that kind of obnoxious.
一方面，我认为大多数人都觉得这种行为令人讨厌。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But there also seem to be people who see this as, like, "Oh, that person has a lot of agency.
但似乎也有人认为，“哦，那个人有很多代理权。
They're a leader." They actually grab a lot of the attention that they're seeking, and we tend to view those people as kind of empowered.
他们是一位领导者。”他们实际上吸引了很多他们所寻求的关注，而我们倾向于将这些人视为有权力的人。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't actually think that they're necessarily empowered, but perhaps it stems from the feeling that the rest of us, I like to think, have, which is some sense of social etiquette, where there's some give and take.
我实际上并不认为他们一定有权力，但我想，这也许源于我们其他人所拥有的感觉，这是某种社交礼仪意识，其中有一些给予和索取。
You walk into a room, you kind of assess what's the context here.
你走进一个房间，你会评估这里的背景。
There's some listening as well as some speaking, and so on.
有一些听，也有一些说，等等。
And so when someone shows up and just kind of violates all those rules, on the one hand, it can be obnoxious and overtake everything, but as I said before, there's also the sense of like, oh, that must be nice to just be able to be as one feels.
因此，当有人出现并违反所有这些规则时，一方面，它可能会令人讨厌并压倒一切，但正如我之前所说，还有一种感觉，哦，能够成为一个人感觉的那样一定很好。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so I think I'm describing this not because I think people should mimic this type of behavior either way, be really meek and not say anything that's on their mind or just overtake, but because I feel like it might be an exploration of this aggressive drive.
所以我认为我描述这一点并不是因为我认为人们应该以任何方式模仿这种类型的行为，要非常温柔，不要说出他们的想法或只是超越，而是因为我觉得这可能是对这种侵略性驱动力的探索。
And if someone's doing that, are they trying to mask something else?
如果有人这样做，他们是否试图掩盖其他事情？
And why do people react to these seemingly powerful people in this way?
为什么人们对这些看似强大的人会有这样的反应？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
These things happen in the world around us.
这些事情发生在我们周围的世界。
They're independent of the spectrum of gender, the spectrum of intelligence, achievement.
它们与性别、智力、成就无关。
They're human problems.
它们是人类的问题。
So a person you're describing, whether that person has character structure problems that are present with them across time or whether they're in a certain place, whether it's in life or today, we don't know for sure what the underpinnings, but what you're describing is it's a presentation of narcissism.
所以你所描述的一个人，无论这个人是否有随着时间的推移而出现的性格结构问题，或者他们是否在某个地方，无论是在生活中还是今天，我们不确定其基础是什么，但你所描述的是这是自恋的表现。
And remember, narcissism is rooted not in confidence, not in arrogance.
请记住，自恋并非源于自信，也不是傲慢。
It's rooted in vulnerability.
它的根源在于脆弱性。
It's rooted in I don't feel good enough.
它的根源在于我感觉不够好。
And narcissism then engages with the world through the lens of envy.
然后自恋通过嫉妒的镜头与世界交往。
So no one else gets to have any time.
这样一来，其他人就没有时间了。
No one else gets to say anything funny.
没有人可以说任何有趣的话。
No one else maybe gets to say anything at all.
也许没有人可以说任何话。
There's a dominance of the room.
房间里有一种统治力。
There's a dominance of the room that comes through an inability to tolerate the back and forth of human interactions.
房间里的主导地位是由于无法容忍人与人之间的互动而产生的。
Human engagement.
人类参与。
So then that person becomes very dominant, and why is that?
那么这个人就会变得非常有统治力，为什么呢？
Because when they tell a story and they get a laugh, or even if it's not that funny and it's the 15th story, but somebody smiles a little bit or nobody smiles, they can perceive inside that, like, I just did that.
因为当他们讲一个故事并得到笑声时，或者即使这不是那么好笑，而且这是第 15 个故事，但有人微笑了一点或没有人微笑，他们可以在里面感知到，就像，我刚刚这样做了。
I said that, and maybe somebody responded positively.
我这么说，也许有人做出了积极的回应。
I feel good about that.
我对此感觉很好。
For a split second, now that's gone.
有一瞬间，现在一切都消失了。
And then the next thing comes, and the next thing comes because people who are coming at the world through the lens of narcissism, whether it's just in that particular event or it's across life, are never satisfied, and nothing ever brings enough goodness.
然后下一件事就会发生，下一件事就会发生，因为那些通过自恋的镜头来看待这个世界的人，无论是在那个特定的事件中还是在整个生活中，都永远不会满足，没有什么能带来足够的美好。
Nothing ever brings enough feeling of pleasure.
没有什么能带来足够的愉悦感。
So the person then wants more, and that's how the person dominates the room.
所以这个人就会想要更多，这就是这个人主导房间的方式。
Now, that can be very seductive.
现在，这可能非常诱人。
Narcissistic people, not always, but are often very seductive because of that appearance of mastery Of control.
自恋的人并不总是如此，但往往因为掌握控制力的外表而非常诱人。
So that person did have, we could look at it in the short term and say, that person had mastery over the room.
所以那个人确实拥有，我们可以在短期内看待它并说，那个人掌握了房间。
No one said anything for an hour but them.
整整一个小时，除了他们，没有人说话。
So they had mastery over the room.
所以他们掌控了这个房间。
They had control over the room.
他们控制着这个房间。
But what they're doing is exerting over-control.
但他们正在做的是过度控制。
It's like penny-wise and pound-foolish.
这就像小事明智，大事愚蠢。
They borrow a dollar today to pay back 100 tomorrow.
他们今天借 1 美元，明天还 100 美元。
Because they got to control that room, but a lot of people, not everyone, some people are seduced by it.
因为他们必须控制那个房间，但是很多人，不是所有人，有些人被它诱惑了。
But a lot of people will take away from that something that's not a good feeling, something that wasn't mutual, that doesn't make that person want to collaborate with that person, even be in the same space as that person.
但很多人会从中带走一些不好的感觉，一些不相互的东西，这些东西不会让那个人想要与那个人合作，甚至与那个人在同一个空间。
So it's counterproductive.
所以会适得其反。
Because the people who might come under the spell, so to speak, they're the people who are brought under the spell.
因为那些可能陷入魔咒的人，可以这么说，他们就是那些被魔咒束缚的人。
They're less observant, dynamic, intuitive, introspective.
他们缺乏观察力、活力、直觉和内省。
They're not the people that you want, in a sense, on your side.
从某种意义上说，他们不是你想要站在你一边的人。
The people that would be most valuable to collaborate with, even as thought partners, have conversations with, those people are going to be put off because even if they don't know exactly what's wrong, they know, like, that didn't feel good.
与那些最有价值合作的人，即使是思想伙伴，进行对话，这些人也会被推迟，因为即使他们不知道到底出了什么问题，他们也知道，这感觉不太好。
And they map, do I want that feeling more in my life?
他们描绘了我的生活中是否想要更多这种感觉？
No. So that's the counterproductive aspects.
不，这就是适得其反的方面。
That's why narcissism is destructive.
这就是为什么自恋具有破坏性。
Because you might say, well, there's nothing destructive in that interaction, but again, you have to be standing so up close to it that you don't see the bigger picture.
因为你可能会说，好吧，这种互动没有任何破坏性，但同样，你必须站得很近，以至于看不到更大的图景。
Because when you stand back from that, that's not a person who's, by and large, you see that's not a person who's interconnected in the world around them, has a group of good supportive friends, has a bunch of colleagues where they can sort of exchange information and because all that social dynamic has to happen in the rest of life.
因为当你退后一步，你会发现，总的来说，这个人不是一个与周围世界相互联系的人，没有一群很好的支持朋友，没有一群可以交换信息的同事，因为所有的社会动态都必须在余生中发生。
So you're seeing a situation that is counterproductive, that is destructive, and you always see that when people are enacting narcissism, whether it's, okay, a bunch of bad things have happened, and for whatever reason, like, I'm in an unhealthy place and I'm enacting it right now, or if I'm enacting it every day of my life because it's in my character structure and I haven't recognized and changed it, it's always destructive.
所以你会看到一种适得其反、具有破坏性的情况，你总是会看到，当人们表现出自恋时，无论是，好吧，发生了一堆坏事，无论出于什么原因，比如，我处于一个不健康的地方，我现在就表现出来，或者如果我每天都在表现它，因为它存在于我的性格结构中，而我没有认识到并改变它，它总是具有破坏性的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The narcissists that I've known and observed almost always seem to have a partner who clearly supports their narcissism, or at least doesn't speak up very much against it, at least not publicly, and not much else, except a professional role.
我所认识和观察到的自恋者似乎总是有一个明确支持他们自恋的伴侣，或者至少不会大声反对，至少不会公开反对，除了专业角色之外，也没有太多其他的。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In fact, there's one scientist who I did not work with who comes to mind, and the joke about him was always that this person would talk about themselves endlessly-
事实上，我想到了一位与我没有共事过的科学家，关于他的笑话总是说这个人会没完没了地谈论自己——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for the first half hour that you run into them and say, "Okay, well, enough about me.
在前半个小时里，你遇到他们并说：“好吧，好吧，关于我的事情就够了。
Why don't you tell me about me?"
你为什么不告诉我关于我的事？”
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This person moved to a different country with their partner, comes back every once in a while, has essentially done nothing over the last decade or so, kind of left the field, and is kind of secretly the laughing stock of the field.
这个人和他们的伴侣搬到了另一个国家，每隔一段时间就会回来一次，在过去十年左右的时间里基本上没有做任何事情，有点离开了这个领域，并且是这个领域秘密的笑柄。
There was one other anecdote about this person.
关于此人还有一则轶事。
I'm not picking on them.
我不会针对他们。
I'm just trying to explore these dimensions-
我只是想探索这些维度-
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of aggression and low pleasure drive, and envy.
攻击性、低快乐驱动力和嫉妒。
At lab meetings, it was well known that they would host a basketball game.
在实验室会议上，众所周知，他们将举办一场篮球比赛。
But it was well known that you did not want to score on this person.
但众所周知，你不想在这个人身上得分。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because you would-
因为你会——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
be asked to leave the lab.
被要求离开实验室。
And indeed, several people were asked to leave the laboratory for having embarrassed the lab head at one of these lab events.
事实上，有几个人因为在其中一次实验室活动中让实验室负责人难堪而被要求离开实验室。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
By participating in exactly the event that was described in the way it was described and doing something competent.
通过按照描述的方式准确地参与所描述的事件并做一些有能力的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
So the game was essentially a way for the person to build themselves up, and they were a mediocre at best basketball player.
因此，比赛本质上是人们增强自我的一种方式，而他们充其量只是一名平庸的篮球运动员。
So here's this game where everyone's expected to pretend.
所以这是每个人都需要假装的游戏。
And I have to pretend that the person is actually better at what they do than they are.
我必须假装这个人实际上比他们本身更擅长做事。
And in some ways, it feels like a replica of how narcissism shows up in so many other areas of life.
在某些方面，这感觉像是自恋在生活的许多其他领域的复制品。
Like you said, these people are rarely surrounded by people who are actually very bright, self-effacing, et cetera, they tend to gather people that just support them or no one at all, because no reasonably healthy person would choose to be around that.
就像你说的，这些人周围很少有真正非常聪明、谦逊等的人，他们倾向于聚集那些只是支持他们的人，或者根本没有人，因为没有一个相当健康的人会选择和他们在一起。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Because that game is a metaphor for all of life for that person.
因为那个游戏是那个人一生的隐喻。
It's sending that message, like, see this message and extrapolate it out to everything else.
它正在发送该消息，例如，查看该消息并将其推断为其他所有内容。
So what's the metaphor?
那么比喻什么呢？
What's it communicating?
它在沟通什么？
It's communicating that you don't do anything better than I do.
这是在传达你没有做任何比我更好的事情。
You don't rise above me, interestingly.
有趣的是，你并没有超越我。
You don't rise above me in any way.
你无论如何都比不上我。
You don't get to know things I don't know.
你不会知道我不知道的事情。
You don't get to do anything better than I do, or I will be destructive towards you.
你不能做得比我更好，否则我会对你造成破坏。
It's fascinating, because it's not about the game.
这很有趣，因为这与游戏无关。
The game is a way of communicating that message.
游戏是传达该信息的一种方式。
Interestingly, the person's not even that good at the game.
有趣的是，这个人甚至不擅长这个游戏。
Why not choose something you're really good at?
为什么不选择你真正擅长的事情呢？
Because then the message is not communicated as clearly.
因为那样的话信息传达得就不那么清楚了。
And a lot of this is unconscious.
其中很多都是无意识的。
Let's choose something I'm kind of fair to middling at.
让我们选择一些我比较中规中矩的东西。
And then make it very clear that no one gets to be better, or I do something destructive to them.
然后明确表示没有人会变得更好，或者我做了一些对他们有破坏性的事情。
That's exactly what that is.
就是这样。
And imagine, someone is thrown out of the lab.
想象一下，有人被赶出实验室。
This is in many ways the biggest thing in their life or one of the biggest things in that person's life.
从很多方面来说，这是他们一生中最重要的事情，或者是那个人一生中最重要的事情之一。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It's anti-generative.
它是反生成的。
The cost of that in the larger world is one less potentially fantastic scientist.
在更大的世界中，这样做的代价是少了一位潜在的出色科学家。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
And that's always the broader picture because the narcissist is standing very, very close to the tapestry.
这总是更广阔的前景，因为自恋者站得离挂毯非常非常近。
And so the interaction there is, you have scored a basket when I have not.
所以互动就是，你投进了球，而我却没有。
So you don't understand the message that you're not supposed to exceed me, and now I will get rid of you because you're dangerous to have around, because you don't get the message, and you may exceed me in other ways.
所以你不明白你不应该超越我的信息，现在我会摆脱你，因为你在身边是危险的，因为你不明白这个信息，你可能会在其他方面超过我。
And also, I'm going to feel better because I have the power to be punitive, even though it's wantonly punitive and completely unjustified, but I have the power to do that, and it'll make me feel good than to push you away, and I know that's not going to be good for you, and I'll feel good about that.
而且，我会感觉更好，因为我有权力进行惩罚，尽管这是肆意的惩罚，完全不合理，但我有权力这样做，这会让我感觉很好，而不是把你推开，我知道这对你没有好处，我会感觉很好。
But that Doesn't last, of course.
但这当然不会持续下去。
That's why the person continues to do it.
这就是为什么这个人继续这样做。
And it also doesn't understand at all that that's not good for science.
而且它根本不明白这对科学不利。
Or most importantly, that's not good for me.
或者最重要的是，这对我来说不好。
There's a graduate student in that lab, because you didn't say make the graduate student leave if the person wasn't good.
那个实验室有一个研究生，因为你没有说如果这个人不好就让他离开。
No, it's make the graduate student leave no matter what.
不，无论如何都要让研究生离开。
So the person is doing things that are injurious to the society around us, obviously to the specific person they're targeting, and also to themselves.
因此，这个人正在做对我们周围的社会有害的事情，显然是对他们所针对的特定人以及他们自己有害。
And that's where if you follow envy, and you see high levels of it in situations that are unbounded.
如果你追踪嫉妒，你会在无限的情况下看到高度的嫉妒。
So like this situation is unbounded in the sense that the person can do that.
因此，从这个人可以做到的意义上来说，这种情况是无限的。
There's no higher authority.
没有更高的权力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Well, labs, now this is changing.
好吧，实验室，现在这种情况正在改变。
And by the way, I should back up a second and say that I do believe, and it's been my experience, that most scientists and lab heads are-
顺便说一句，我应该再说一遍，我确实相信，而且根据我的经验，大多数科学家和实验室负责人都是——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Are not narcissists
不是自恋者
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
are not narcissists, are quite kind.
不是自恋者，很善良。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are benevolent.
都是仁慈的。
Everything can be a little quirky, we're scientists after all, but not narcissists.
一切都可能有点古怪，我们毕竟是科学家，但不是自恋者。
At the same time, it is true that for a long time, less so now, laboratories were sort of like little fiefdoms.
与此同时，确实，在很长一段时间里，实验室有点像小领地，但现在情况有所不同。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There was very little oversight from the universities, and so the lab you joined became your entire world and landscape.
大学的监督很少，所以你加入的实验室就成了你的整个世界和风景。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there was some exploitation by narcissistic lab heads, for sure.
当然，自恋的实验室负责人也有一些剥削。
As you said, it was unbounded.
正如你所说，它是无界的。
There was no oversight, whereas this would be much harder to recreate today if someone wanted to.
没有监督，但如果有人愿意的话，今天要重现这种情况会困难得多。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
And I think that's why by almost everyone listening to this, it will resonate with them.
我认为这就是为什么几乎每个人听到这个都会引起他们的共鸣。
They'll find some familiarity because you can see this in situations where there's a bounded group of people.
他们会发现一些熟悉感，因为你可以在有限的人群的情况下看到这一点。
There's just a certain group of people in a certain situation, and that's who they are.
只有处于特定情况下的特定人群，他们就是这样的人。
But the authority of the person leading the group is unbounded.
但领导该团体的人的权威是无限的。
So there's a situation where if that person has narcissistic tendencies, aggressive drive is too high, pleasure drive is high, but not being met.
所以有一种情况，如果这个人有自恋倾向，攻击性驱力太高，快乐驱力很高，但没有得到满足。
If all of those things are happening, that's when you see this come to light, which is why the destruction varies based upon the destruction that's permissible within the framework.
如果所有这些事情都发生了，那就是你看到这一点的时候，这就是为什么破坏会根据框架内允许的破坏而变化。
So here, this person wasn't going to fire everyone in their lab.
所以在这里，这个人不会解雇实验室里的每个人。
So in a sense, they could only damage their lab so much, although maybe if you damage your lab so much, you don't get funding, you inadvertently sink yourself.
所以从某种意义上说，他们只能对他们的实验室造成如此程度的破坏，尽管也许如果你对你的实验室造成如此程度的破坏，你就得不到资金，你就会无意中让自己沉没。
So even there, that person could bring about their own destruction.
所以即使在那里，那个人也可能会带来自己的毁灭。
But when you see the other end where it's truly unbounded, like in the sense of war.
但当你看到另一端时，它确实是无限的，就像战争意义上的那样。
If someone who can control a machine of war, who then has everything.
如果一个人能够控制战争机器，那么他就拥有了一切。
What do they need?
他们需要什么？
Well, they need something they don't have and never will get.
好吧，他们需要一些他们没有也永远不会得到的东西。
So now they start enacting war, and war is destructive.
所以现在他们开始发动战争，而战争是毁灭性的。
And you think, "Oh, that person wants something." How many times does someone start a war?
你会想，“哦，那个人想要一些东西。”有人发动了多少次战争？
That's clearly an unjustified war.
这显然是一场非正义的战争。
It's a war because they want something.
这是一场战争，因为他们想要一些东西。
Then they get something and they're satisfied.
然后他们得到一些东西并且感到满意。
That's not how it goes.
事情不是这样的。
Then they get something and they're not satisfied, and they want more.
然后他们得到一些东西，但他们并不满足，他们想要更多。
So in discussions at times about narcissism and envy and how that can play out on the world stage.
因此，有时会讨论自恋和嫉妒，以及它们如何在世界舞台上发挥作用。
So sometimes huge events in human history will come up and people, for example, will bring up Adolf Hitler and the idea that Hitler wanted things.
因此，有时人类历史上会发生重大事件，例如，人们会提起阿道夫·希特勒以及希特勒想要某些东西的想法。
No, the unbound narcissism, the unbound envy wanted destruction.
不，无节制的自恋、无节制的嫉妒想要毁灭。
This is a person who, if things had continued to go as this person intended, there would have been no one left on Earth but him, because the process is nothing but destructive.
这个人，如果事情继续按照这个人的意愿发展，地球上除了他之外就没有人了，因为这个过程除了具有破坏性之外什么也没有。
Which is why, after the fact, there's incalculable human carnage.
这就是为什么事后会发生无法估量的人类屠杀。
And he himself was among the incalculable human carnage because that's the endpoint of narcissism on a broad stage.
而他本人也是不可估量的人类屠杀之一，因为那是广阔舞台上自恋的终点。
That's the endpoint of envy at its highest magnitude, and we see that as examples, whether we see on the smaller stage of the lab head that you're describing or on the larger stage of unbounded war.
这是嫉妒的最高程度的终点，我们将其视为示例，无论我们是在您所描述的实验室负责人的较小舞台上还是在无界战争的较大舞台上看到的。
We end up with destruction, like 100% time.
我们最终会遭到破坏，就像 100% 的时间一样。
That's the final common pathway for all of that.
这是所有这一切的最终共同途径。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are there some consistent themes of childhood that lead somebody to become a narcissist?
童年是否有一些一致的主题导致某人成为自恋者？
And in addition to that, I'm curious whether or not narcissists ever have insight.
除此之外，我很好奇自恋者是否有洞察力。
Whether or not if offered the opportunity to explore the 10 cupboards under the structure of self and function of self, whether or not they eventually see inside those cupboards and go, "Oh my goodness.
无论是否有机会探索自我结构和自我功能下的10个橱柜，无论他们最终是否会看到这些橱柜的内部并说：“哦，天哪。
I've got this self that's clearly overinflated and I've got these defense mechanisms and I'm so envious," and modify their behavior or whether or not the narcissists are immune from constructive self-reflection.
我的自我明显过度膨胀，我有这些防御机制，我很羡慕”，并改变他们的行为，或者无论自恋者是否免受建设性的自我反思。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
To answer the first part is the vast majority of narcissism, it may be all of it, we don't know for sure, is rooted in the childhood trauma of not feeling good enough.
要回答第一部分，绝大多数是自恋，它可能是全部，我们不确定，其根源在于童年感觉不够好的创伤。
Which is not an excuse for people doing awful things.
这并不是人们做坏事的借口。
That's not what we're saying.
我们不是这么说的。
We're trying to have an explanatory mechanism.
我们正在尝试建立一个解释机制。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Which goes back to formative life experiences and not feeling good enough, whether it was because that person was directly denigrated or that person wasn't denigrated but could never work hard enough, never could be enough to get approval.
这可以追溯到形成性的生活经历，感觉不够好，无论是因为那个人被直接诽谤，还是因为那个人没有被诽谤，但永远无法足够努力，永远无法获得足够的认可。
Again, it's not 100% and human beings are complicated, but if you go and look, you see that, that there was never a state of, "Oh, I feel good enough about myself." And if there's never a state of I feel good enough about myself because someone has told me that and given me the pat on the head or given me the positive comment, you can see how in a certain sort of natural lay of the land genetically and in concert with other experiences, that person can get to adulthood with a lot of aggression in them and never having experienced, "I'm good enough." It's still running along inside of them, and then they're enacting that aggression in the world around them.
再说一次，这不是 100% 的，人类是复杂的，但如果你去看看，你会发现，从来没有一种状态，“哦，我对自己感觉足够好。”如果我从来没有因为有人告诉我这一点并拍拍我的头或给了我积极的评价而对自己感觉足够好，那么你可以看到，在某种遗传上的自然条件下，与其他经历相结合，这个人在成年时会充满攻击性，却从未经历过“我足够好”。它仍然在他们体内运行，然后他们在周围的世界中表现出侵略性。
That's most commonly what we see.
这是我们最常见的情况。
And because there's such deep vulnerability and such deep insecurity than people, say people who suffer from full blown narcissism, narcissistic personality disorder.
患有彻底自恋、自恋型人格障碍的人说，因为人比人更脆弱、更不安全。
So an action of envy on the highest levels.
这是最高层的嫉妒行为。
They're so defended, they're so strongly defended in an unhealthy manner from seeing their own vulnerability, that it is extremely difficult to get that person to come around and say, "Okay, let's look in those 10 cupboards." Within the field, people often talk about treating narcissistic people, they talk about it in a nihilistic way.
他们如此防御，以一种不健康的方式强烈防御，以免看到自己的脆弱性，以至于很难让那个人过来说：“好吧，让我们看看那10个柜子。”在这个领域，人们经常谈论治疗自恋者，他们以虚无主义的方式谈论它。
And some just very experienced people say: "Oh, that's impossible.
一些非常有经验的人会说：“哦，那是不可能的。
That never gets better." Now, I'm not a believer in therapeutic nihilism.
这永远不会变得更好。”现在，我不相信治疗虚无主义。
I think that yes, it is the norm that that person just can't get it together to go look at that thing.
我认为是的，这个人就是无法集中精力去看那个东西，这是常态。
They're so defended against it.
他们对此非常防御。
They're so afraid of it.
他们非常害怕它。
They won't look anywhere near it, so they're looking in the other direction, and they're furthering all that unhealth.
他们不会看任何靠近它的地方，所以他们正在看另一个方向，他们正在加剧所有不健康的情况。
It's not the case that it's always that way.
情况并非总是如此。
And on a couple of occasions, I have worked with, seen, and witnessed narcissistic people who can make changes.
有几次，我曾与自恋的人一起工作、见过并亲眼目睹过他们可以做出改变。
Now, it's usually in the context of something very extreme that causes them to do that.
现在，通常是在非常极端的情况下才会导致他们这样做。
So someone who will no longer have access to family members they want to see or to financial resources that they need to keep themselves afloat.
因此，有些人将无法再见到他们想见的家庭成员，也无法再获得维持生计所需的经济资源。
It's things that often are that dramatic.
事情往往都是那么戏剧化。
It's not always that.
情况并非总是如此。
But we can see, though, in those kind of extenuating situations where the problem is so big, the envy is so high, but the motivation for change is very, very high.
但我们可以看到，在问题如此严重、嫉妒如此之高的情有可原的情况下，但变革的动力却非常非常高。
Because in a sense, on the carrot-and-stick model, the stick here is very, very strong, that if a person then goes and does that, you can see change inside of them.
因为从某种意义上说，在胡萝卜加大棒模式中，这里的大棒非常非常强，如果一个人去做，你可以看到他们内心的变化。
So we're never in a place of therapeutic nihilism.
所以我们永远不会处于治疗虚无主义的境地。
But the barriers to that are very, very high because the self is so wounded that the person is protecting that self so strongly.
但这样做的障碍非常非常高，因为自我受到如此严重的伤害，以至于这个人如此强烈地保护自己。
That's why the narcissism and envy are so full-blown, and it's hard to get that person to go back and look.
这就是为什么自恋和嫉妒如此全面，很难让那个人回头看。
But not impossible.
但并非不可能。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Based on what you're telling me, it seems that it's a very low probability that a non-clinician could change a narcissist.
根据你告诉我的情况，非临床医生改变自恋者的可能性似乎很小。
In other words, if one is engaging in the world with a narcissist, because they have to, presumably, or they just find themselves in that place, would you say to that person, there's very little, if anything, that you can do to change the narcissist's behavior or psychological framework?
换句话说，如果一个人与自恋者一起参与这个世界，因为他们可能必须这样做，或者他们只是发现自己处于那个地方，你会对那个人说，你可以做的很少，如果有的话，来改变自恋者的行为或心理框架？
Because, of course, if the narcissist can't often do it for themselves with the help of a skilled clinician, why would anyone else be able to achieve that?
当然，因为如果自恋者不能经常在熟练的临床医生的帮助下自己做到这一点，为什么其他人能够做到这一点呢？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
So we're coming at what we're doing here from a perspective of truth about human beings.
因此，我们从人类真相的角度来看待我们在这里所做的事情。
And that truth brings with it hopefulness.
这个真理带来了希望。
It brings with it hopefulness that people can change and how people can change.
它带来了人们可以改变以及人们如何改变的希望。
And I am 100% all for that.
我百分百支持这一点。
It's the way to look at ourselves.
这是看待我们自己的方式。
But it is also true that there are aspects of pathology that require clinical treatment in order to improve.
但病理学的某些方面确实需要临床治疗才能改善。
So now we're looking from the other side and saying, "Hey, there's a problem here, and there's a deep problem here." And that we have to come at from a different perspective of how can you help that problem?
所以现在我们从另一边看并说：“嘿，这里有一个问题，而且这里有一个很深的问题。”我们必须从不同的角度来看待如何解决这个问题？
And there's a science behind this too, of what level of clinical care, for example, is most likely to be helpful to someone like this.
这背后也有一门科学，例如，什么水平的临床护理最有可能对这样的人有帮助。
And it's not an individual clinician even.
而且它甚至不是个别临床医生。
It's a team of people who work through different modalities who can sort of wrap around that person.
这是一个由通过不同方式工作的人组成的团队，他们可以围绕这个人进行工作。
So it's not just a level of clinical care is needed, but it's a relatively high level of clinical care.
因此，这不仅需要一定水平的临床护理，而且需要相对较高水平的临床护理。
And that, in general, is the only way that we get at narcissism.
一般来说，这是我们产生自恋的唯一途径。
That's not 100%, but that's the vast majority of time.
这不是 100%，但绝大多数时间都是这样。
So what can then the person do?
那么这个人可以做什么呢？
A person cannot be a team of clinicians.
一个人不可能成为一个临床医生团队。
What that person can do, one choice is to disengage.
那个人能做的，一种选择就是脱离。
But disengagement can come with the promise of re-engagement.
但脱离接触可能伴随着重新接触的承诺。
Many, many times, I've worked with people and practiced and rehearsed with them like, "Okay, what might you say to someone along the lines of, I've known you for a long time," or, "I care about you," or, "I love you." Whatever they may say to lead in, "But I can't be with you," or, "I can't be around you.
很多很多次，我和人们一起工作，和他们一起练习和排练，比如，“好吧，你会对某人说些什么，我认识你很久了”，或者“我关心你”，或者“我爱你”。无论他们说什么，“但我不能和你在一起”，或者“我不能在你身边。
There's something going on that makes it not okay for me.
发生了一些事情让我感觉不太好。
It doesn't feel okay." The person maybe says things like, you're aggressive or demeaning or whatever it is, or maybe they just say, "It just doesn't feel okay.
感觉不太好。”这个人可能会说，你有攻击性、有侮辱性或者其他什么，或者他们可能只是说，“这感觉不太好。
I can't have it." And then the need to step away from the person.
我不能拥有它。”然后需要远离这个人。
But look, if you got some help.
但是看，如果你得到一些帮助的话。
If you took better care of yourself in ways that would be better for you and for the people around you, then of course I'd want to be in your life.
如果您以对您和周围的人都更好的方式更好地照顾自己，那么我当然希望出现在您的生活中。
Something like that.
类似的事情。
So disengagement can come with that encouragement to the person.
因此，脱离接触可以伴随着对人的鼓励。
But one way or another, you have to set boundaries, which is, okay, I have to deal with this person, so I'll deal with them a little bit.
但无论如何，你必须设定界限，也就是说，好吧，我必须和这个人打交道，所以我会和他们打交道。
Or I don't have to deal with this person, so I won't.
或者我不需要和这个人打交道，所以我不会。
Or I can't get away from this person, so I have to take with a grain of salt what they're saying to me.
或者我无法摆脱这个人，所以我必须对他们对我说的话持保留态度。
But ultimately, some form of strong boundaries or disengagement is, that's the response, that's the self-care response for the person who's with the narcissist.
但最终，某种形式的强烈界限或脱离是与自恋者在一起的人的反应，这就是自我照顾的反应。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What are some other ways that the aggressive drive and pleasure drive, and generative drive for that matter, play out?
攻击性内驱力、愉悦性内驱力以及生成性内驱力还有哪些其他发挥作用的方式？
For instance, we talked about the former patient of yours who eventually switched jobs, clearly had a generative drive within him, but it was being blocked by a number of choices rooted in narratives that originated in childhood, et cetera.
例如，我们谈到了你的前一位患者，他最终换了工作，显然他内心有一种生成动力，但它被一些源于童年叙事的选择所阻碍，等等。
We talked about individuals with high aggressive drive, high degree of pleasure drive, but a very diminished capacity to experience pleasure, and therefore a lot of envy and the destruction that comes with envy.
我们谈到了具有高攻击性驱力和高度快乐驱力的人，但体验快乐的能力却非常低，因此有很多嫉妒和嫉妒带来的破坏。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What are some of the other variations on these drives as you observe them in your clinical practice?
当您在临床实践中观察到这些驱动器时，它们还有哪些其他变化？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Well, our overall framing is we want the generative drive to be the one that's deterministic.
嗯，我们的总体框架是我们希望生成驱动力是确定性的。
It's the one with the strongest influence.
这是影响力最强的一位。
So we want to nurture the generative drive in us and in others, and it makes sense for us to talk about that.
因此，我们希望培养我们和他人的生成动力，我们谈论这一点是有意义的。
But we've looked at how do things get out of balance.
但我们已经研究了事情是如何失去平衡的。
And from the perspective of, well, what if the aggressive drive or the pleasure drive, what if they're too high?
从以下角度来看，如果攻击性驱力或愉悦性驱力太高怎么办？
And then it makes sense that often, not always, what can be driving them to be so high are things that are unhealthy in us.
然后，有道理的是，通常（并非总是）促使他们如此高涨的是我们体内不健康的东西。
Then the higher they get, the harder it is to gratify them.
然后，他们获得的越高，就越难满足他们。
So we end up with that problem of envy.
所以我们最终会遇到嫉妒的问题。
But we can be out of balance in the other direction, too, where the person does not experience an ability to engage with the world around them.
但我们也可能在另一个方向上失去平衡，即人们没有能力与周围的世界互动。
They don't think they can do anything to change anything for the better, inside or outside of themselves.
他们认为自己无法做任何事情来改变自己的内在或外在，让事情变得更好。
And they're not doing much, they don't feel that they can do much, and also not receiving pleasure from things.
他们做的事情不多，他们觉得自己能做的事情不多，也没有从事情中获得乐趣。
There's no gratification from the things a person is doing.
一个人所做的事情不会带来任何满足感。
We see situations like this too, with the aggressive drive, the pleasure drive, or both, and then we end up not at envy, because envy is the side of excess, but we end up at demoralization on the lower side.
我们也看到这样的情况，带着攻击性的驱力，快乐的驱力，或两者兼而有之，然后我们最终不会陷入嫉妒，因为嫉妒是过度的一面，但我们最终会陷入低级的士气低落。
Now, demoralization is not a specific psychiatric diagnosis.
现在，士气低落并不是一种特定的精神病学诊断。
It can predispose to psychiatric problems like the biochemical abnormality of depression.
它可能导致精神问题，例如抑郁症的生化异常。
But what we're talking about here is not a psychiatric diagnosis.
但我们这里讨论的不是精神病诊断。
Like envy is not a psychiatric diagnosis.
就像嫉妒不是精神病学的诊断一样。
It's a thing that can be experienced that can lead to diagnoses.
这是一种可以导致诊断的体验事物。
The same thing with demoralization.
士气低落也是如此。
If you don't feel that you can make a difference to anything, and you're not enjoying anything or feeling gratification from anything, then that pool is going to win out.
如果你觉得自己无法改变任何事情，并且你没有享受任何事情或从任何事情中感到满足，那么这个池将会获胜。
That's going to be a demoralized person.
这将是一个士气低落的人。
The same way, of course, we know in experiments when you have a rat going for food, if you do it enough, when the rat goes for the food and you take the food away, the rat stops trying.
当然，同样的道理，我们在实验中知道，当你让一只老鼠去寻找食物时，如果你做得足够多，当老鼠去寻找食物而你把食物拿走时，老鼠就会停止尝试。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, the learned helplessness phenomenon.
是的，习得性无助现象。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
That exists in us too, and it comes along with all sorts of other things, because being not rats, we have a whole bunch of thoughts about that of, "Oh my God, I'm not good enough and nothing will ever be okay." And so demoralization then can be very, very strong in taking a person away from the other things we're trying to seek.
这也存在于我们身上，它伴随着各种各样的其他事情而来，因为我们不是老鼠，我们有一大堆关于“天哪，我不够好，一切都不会好起来”的想法。因此，士气低落可能会非常非常强烈地让一个人远离我们试图寻求的其他事物。
Either because that person has essentially the learned helplessness.
要么是因为这个人本质上有习得性无助。
And all the complicated things inside of us that can come along with that, or the person isn't gaining pleasure from anything.
我们内心所有复杂的事情都会随之而来，或者这个人不会从任何事情中获得乐趣。
So when we're considering the ways in which we can be out of balance, we think, okay, aggression and pleasure drive.
因此，当我们考虑可能会失去平衡的方式时，我们会想，好吧，攻击性和快乐驱动力。
If one or the other or both is too high, we end up at envy.
如果其中之一或两者都太高，我们最终会嫉妒。
And if one or the other or both are too low, we end up with demoralization.
如果其中一个或两个都太低，我们最终会士气低落。
And you can take almost any scenario.
您几乎可以应对任何场景。
It could be a scenario of something that's just really not going well for a person, not a clinical scenario.
这可能是一个对一个人来说确实不太顺利的事情的场景，而不是临床场景。
It's a thing in a person's life.
这是一个人一生中的一件事。
Or we can take clinical scenarios, and the vast majority, outside of outliers, like a head injury, for example.
或者我们可以采用临床场景，以及绝大多数异常值之外的情况，例如头部受伤。
We can take those scenarios and we can look at it in that way and we can understand what's going on.
我们可以采用这些场景，以这种方式看待它，我们可以了解发生了什么。
At least we can understand enough that when we go back and look in the 10 cupboards of the two pillars, we can then have some understanding of, okay, what is going on?
至少我们能够足够理解，当我们回去看两根柱子的10个柜子时，我们就能有一些了解，好吧，这是怎么回事？
We know the basic picture and how things are not in the balance we want them in.
我们知道基本情况，也知道事情为何没有达到我们想要的平衡。
Now, we can understand that enough to go back and then look in those 10 cupboards.
现在，我们已经了解了这一点，可以回去查看那 10 个橱柜了。
And I believe that just about everything except those biological outliers like a head injury fits into that heuristic, which is why we can use it to understand, we can use it to help, we can use it to make change.
我相信，除了像头部受伤这样的生物学异常值之外，几乎所有事情都适合这种启发式，这就是为什么我们可以用它来理解，我们可以用它来帮助，我们可以用它来做出改变。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What a powerful lens to think about and explore the self and where things are working for us and where things are possibly not working for us.
这是一个多么强大的镜头来思考和探索自我，以及哪些事情对我们有用，哪些事情可能不适合我们。
If I or anyone else out there wanted to get some read on, assess their level of aggressive drive and their level of pleasure drive and their ability to experience pleasure, what sorts of questions would one ask?
如果我或其他任何人想要了解一些内容，评估他们的攻击性驱动力水平、快乐驱动力水平以及体验快乐的能力，人们会问什么样的问题？
For instance, is it a question of how driven am I?
例如，这是一个我的驱动力有多大的问题吗？
How much get up and go do I have?
我还有多少时间起床走动？
How much pleasure do I experience from an interaction with a puppy, an interaction with food?
我从与小狗的互动、与食物的互动中体验到多少快乐？
Is it too much?
是不是太多了？
Does it draw me off course?
它会让我偏离路线吗？
Are those the sorts of very simple but perhaps also very informative questions that we could start to use to probe our psyche?
这些是不是非常简单但也许信息量很大的问题，我们可以用来探索我们的心灵？
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I think yes, but I would come top-down.
我想是的，但我会自上而下。
So if the goal of health is that aggression and pleasure, those drives are subserving the generative drive, then start to look there.
因此，如果健康的目标是攻击性和快乐，那么这些内驱力正在促进生成内驱力，那么就开始看看那里吧。
If a person can take an honest inventory of self, like what kind of force am I being in the world around me?
如果一个人能够诚实地盘点自我，比如我在周围的世界中是什么样的力量？
And that could mean, for example, what kind of force am I being in my family?
例如，这可能意味着我在家庭中处于什么样的地位？
Am I denigrating to the people around me?
我是否侮辱了周围的人？
Are the other people in the home afraid of me?
家里其他人怕我吗？
What kind of force?
什么样的力量？
Am I being a force for good?
我是一股向善的力量吗？
Am I bolstering?
我是在支持吗？
People can't always see that in themselves and take stock of themselves, but what we're talking about is a situation where we think a person can.
人们并不总是能够在自己身上看到这一点并评估自己，但我们所讨论的是我们认为一个人可以做到的情况。
They can bring to bear, who am I being in the world?
他们可以让我明白，我在这个世界上是谁？
In other ways, think of the example of the person who needed to leave the job, who could look at that and say, "No, I'm not I'm not being generative in the world in the way I want to.
换句话说，想想需要离职的人的例子，他可能会看着这个并说：“不，我没有，我没有按照我想要的方式在世界上发挥创造力。
I'm certainly not doing my job as well as I would want to.
我当然没有像我想要的那样做好我的工作。
I'm making my own life worse, right?
我让自己的生活变得更糟，对吗？
So that person could then see that's out of balance.
这样那个人就可以看到这是不平衡的。
Or in another way, a person might see, a lot of what I'm doing is sort of self-serving or maybe destructive.
或者以另一种方式，一个人可能会看到，我所做的很多事情都是自私的，或者可能是破坏性的。
Like people can realize that, right?
就像人们可以意识到的那样，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
So you can realize by taking an inventory of self, is the generative drive what's deterministic in me?
所以你可以通过盘点自我来认识到，生成驱动力对我来说是决定性的吗？
And again, not always, but we're talking about a process of exploration.
再说一遍，并非总是如此，但我们正在谈论一个探索的过程。
If the answer to that is yes, if you say, "Look, I'm trying to be the best person that I can, and I think about the people over whom I have any authority, right?
如果答案是肯定的，如果你说：“看，我正在尽我所能成为最好的人，并且我会考虑我有权管辖的人，对吗？
And I try to be reasonable, and I try to be fair, and I try and be circumspect, and I try and think in someone else's shoes.
我努力做到通情达理，努力做到公平，努力做到谨慎，努力站在别人的角度思考。
Sometimes I have to set boundaries or expectations or even punishment.
有时我必须设定界限或期望，甚至惩罚。
But I'm careful about how I'm doing that, and I'm certainly not perfect, and I get things wrong at times.
但我对自己的做法很谨慎，而且我当然并不完美，有时也会出错。
But, I do think I'm contributing to the world.
但是，我确实认为我正在为世界做出贡献。
I'm doing whatever I take on as well as I can do it.
我正在尽我所能，尽我所能。
I'm productive at work.
我工作效率很高。
My kids are doing okay, or my friends are doing all right." Whatever it is that if we can come up with that, then we can say, okay, exhale a little bit.
我的孩子们做得很好，或者我的朋友们做得很好。”无论是什么，如果我们能想到这一点，那么我们就可以说，好吧，松一口气。
Like we're in a good place, right?
好像我们处在一个好地方，对吧？
It doesn't mean everything is optimal, of course.
当然，这并不意味着一切都是最佳的。
So then go look at the level of the aggressive drive, which might mean, how assertive am I?
那么接下来看看攻击性驱动力的水平，这可能意味着，我有多自信？
Right?
对吗？
Am I the kind of person who comes up to the precipice but doesn't make the decision?
我是不是那种走到悬崖边却没有做出决定的人？
Am I the kind of person who's a little too assertive, and sometimes I'm sort of walking on people a little bit?
我是不是那种太自信，有时有点踩人的人？
Like a person can go look at the aggressive drive within them.
就像一个人可以去看看他们内心的攻击性驱动力。
Or pleasure-seeking.
或者是追求享乐。
Am I doing things that bring me gratification, right?
我所做的事情是否能给我带来满足，对吗？
Am I engaging with the people around me in a way that brings the gratification that one might wish for, right?
我与周围的人交往的方式是否能够带来人们所希望的满足感，对吧？
So if it's in a romantic relationship, is there romance?
那么如果是恋爱关系，还有浪漫吗？
Like are we being nice to one another, right?
就像我们彼此友善一样，对吗？
So you can go and look at that and say, am I getting gratification from the things I'm doing?
所以你可以看看这个并说，我从我正在做的事情中得到满足吗？
Am I taking wherever this drive is within me and trying to satisfy it in reasonable, healthy ways that are also good for others?
我是否会利用内心的这种动力，并尝试以合理、健康且对其他人也有利的方式来满足它？
And we're back to the generative drive.
我们又回到了生成驱动力。
So that's one way of coming at it, and it's the way that we would like to, because now what do we try to do next, and can we make things better?
所以这是实现这一目标的一种方式，也是我们想要的方式，因为现在我们下一步要尝试做什么，我们能让事情变得更好吗？
Right?
对吗？
Can we optimize things?
我们可以优化一些东西吗？
Okay, things are okay, right?
好吧，一切都还好，对吧？
But can we make them better?
但我们能让它们变得更好吗？
But let's say we see that the generative drive is not winning the day, right?
但假设我们看到生成内驱力并没有取得胜利，对吗？
And people can see that.
人们可以看到这一点。
They're like, "Look, I'm seeking pleasure," right?
他们会说，“听着，我在寻求快乐，”对吧？
For example, I hear over and over, "That's why I got addicted to this substance, and now it's not providing any pleasure to me, and it's now making me miserable, right?
例如，我一遍又一遍地听到，“这就是为什么我对这种物质上瘾，现在它没有给我带来任何快乐，而且现在让我痛苦，对吗？
But I wanted what it was giving me." Again, this doesn't mean that the person just wants to have the world's best time, right?
但我想要它给我的东西。”再说一遍，这并不意味着这个人只想拥有世界上最好的时光，对吗？
It may mean that they're really suffering a lot, right?
这可能意味着他们真的很痛苦，对吗？
And the pleasure that that drug gave them was some relief from pain.
这种药物给他们带来的快乐是痛苦的缓解。
And this is how many, many people tragically ended up becoming addicted to and dying from opiates, right?
这就是有多少人悲惨地最终对阿片类药物上瘾并死亡，对吗？
Because, say, the opiate after the surgery or the opiate after the injury then is soothing something, right?
因为，比如说，手术后的阿片类药物或受伤后的阿片类药物可以起到舒缓作用，对吗？
And it's soothing something because the person feels less bad about something inside of them.
这是一种安慰，因为人们对自己内心的某些事情感觉不那么糟糕了。
You hear this all the time, that that then fosters addiction.
你经常听到这样的说法，这会助长成瘾。
So that person looking for pleasure, this isn't something where we would say in some lighthearted manner that person took chances with their life.
因此，对于那些寻求快乐的人来说，我们不会以轻松的方式说这个人拿自己的生命冒险。
Sometimes we'll see that, but more and more, what people are looking for then is relief from suffering, right?
有时我们会看到这一点，但人们越来越多地寻求摆脱痛苦，对吗？
But we can get to that point where we can ascertain, for whatever reason, that the pleasure-seeking is too much.
但我们可以确定，无论出于何种原因，追求享乐的行为太多了。
And if pleasure-seeking and aggression are too much, we become aware of dissatisfaction, right?
如果追求快乐和侵略性太多，我们就会意识到不满，对吗？
If you're relying too much on aggression, I always want my way.
如果你过于依赖攻击性，我总是想我的方式。
It's not always going to happen, right?
这并不总是会发生，对吧？
Or I always want that pleasurable thing.
或者我总是想要那种令人愉快的事情。
I always want to feel better.
我总是想感觉更好。
That also doesn't happen, right?
这也不会发生，对吧？
So then that can guide us towards being aware of where are those drives, and if the drives are high, how much dissonance is created by what's actually coming of the drive versus the level the drive is at.
那么这可以引导我们意识到这些驱动力在哪里，如果驱动力很高，那么驱动力的实际情况与驱动力所处的水平会产生多少不和谐。
So I guess it's a long way of saying yes to your question, but I would sort of come top-down because the generative drive is so important, and it does gate forward, like kind of where are we at in the spectrum of how healthy am I, or are there elements of unhealth I want to go after, or am I seeing things in myself that really say things that are unhealthy are really dominating my life, are deterministic, like addiction.
所以我想对你的问题说“是”需要很长的路要走，但我会自上而下地回答，因为生成动力非常重要，它确实向前迈进，就像我们在我的健康程度方面处于什么位置，或者是否有我想要追求的不健康因素，或者我是否在自己身上看到了一些东西，这些东西确实说明了不健康的东西确实主宰了我的生活，是确定性的，比如成瘾。
Just one example, addiction, things that are self-destructive, right?
举个例子，成瘾，自我毁灭的事情，对吗？
Because then that's a place to then look at it more through the clinical lens, and maybe I won't just talk to a trusted other and go get a book, but maybe I should have clinical care.
因为那是一个从临床角度更多地看待它的地方，也许我不会只与值得信赖的其他人交谈并去看书，但也许我应该接受临床护理。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, the example of addiction is very potent.
是的，成瘾的例子非常有力。
And it also brings to mind the perhaps less apparently dangerous situation, but one that I think is really common, where people have a certain amount of aggressive drive, they have a certain amount of pleasure drive, but there's a kind of passivity and draining out of the generative drive or competing out of the generative drive because of social media.
这也让我想起了一种可能不太危险的情况，但我认为这种情况确实很常见，人们有一定程度的攻击性驱动力，他们有一定量的快乐驱动力，但由于社交媒体，存在一种被动性，会耗尽生成性驱动力或竞争性。
And the reason I bring this up is, again, not because I dislike social media.
我再次提出这个问题的原因并不是因为我不喜欢社交媒体。
I rely on and use social media for teaching and learning extensively, really.
我确实广泛依赖并使用社交媒体进行教学和学习。
But in going back to the pillars that underlie whether or not we achieve and experience agency, gratitude, peace, contentment, and delight, within the pillar of function of self, there's this thing, salience and what we're paying attention to, internal and external.
但是，回到我们是否实现并体验代理、感恩、平静、满足和快乐的支柱，在自我功能的支柱内，有一个东西，即显着性以及我们所关注的内部和外部的东西。
And social media does seem to me a unique circumstance never before observed in human evolution, where you have a near infinite number of environments available to you.
在我看来，社交媒体确实是人类进化过程中从未观察到的独特情况，在这种情况下，你可以使用的环境几乎是无限的。
And we know that a picture is worth a thousand words, and a movie is worth a billion pictures when it comes to drawing our attention.
我们知道，为了吸引我们的注意力，一张图片胜过一千个文字，一部电影胜过十亿张图片。
You give a young child, even an infant, an iPad, that kid is in the tunnel.
你给一个小孩，甚至是婴儿，一个 iPad，那个孩子就在隧道里。
And I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing, and that computers and computer screens are going to be a part of their lives now and forever, presumably.
我并不认为这是一件坏事，而且电脑和电脑屏幕可能会成为他们现在和永远生活的一部分。
But it is the case that there are a lot of people who perhaps have the propensity for a strong generative drive, but because they also have a propensity for a pleasure drive, they wake up, they pick up the phone, they look at the phone, something captivates their attention, then they're thinking about that.
但事实是，有很多人可能有强烈的生成驱动力的倾向，但因为他们也有快乐驱动力的倾向，所以他们醒来，他们拿起电话，他们看着电话，有什么东西吸引了他们的注意力，然后他们就开始思考这个问题。
It might be something that brings them delight, but more often than not, it's something that brings them either mild irritation or mild entertainment, maybe even intense entertainment for a short while.
它可能会给他们带来快乐，但更多时候，它会给他们带来轻微的刺激或轻微的娱乐，甚至可能会带来短暂的强烈娱乐。
But very quickly, minutes and hours go by in which we are not engaging in the world unless we are posting valuable content.
但很快，几分钟和几小时过去了，除非我们发布有价值的内容，否则我们就不再参与世界了。
And so social media is a bit of a drain on these drives.
因此，社交媒体对这些驱动力有点消耗。
It taps into these drives in very strong ways.
它以非常强有力的方式利用这些驱动力。
And all one has to do is observe the behavior of people in public spaces now, in airports, on trains, even in their cars, and people are essentially watching TV all day long.
人们所要做的就是观察人们现在在公共场所、机场、火车上、甚至汽车里的行为，而人们基本上整天都在看电视。
And it does concern me.
这确实让我担心。
And I raise it because I feel like it can distract from our generative drive in a way that doesn't necessarily speak to any kind of deep character flaw or any kind of subconscious narrative, but just that that salience cupboard is clearly something within that salience cupboard is happening that's unprecedented-
我提出这个问题是因为我觉得它会分散我们的生成动力，这种方式不一定说明任何深层的性格缺陷或任何潜意识的叙述，但只是那个显着的柜子显然是那个显着的柜子里正在发生的事情，这是前所未有的——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and very powerful and potentially quite destructive.
并且非常强大并且具有潜在的破坏性。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I think to understand this, I would cite this belief.
我想为了理解这一点，我会引用这个信念。
I believe this to be true, that human beings have a long history of underappreciating the power of the discoveries that are then in their own hands.
我相信这是真的，人类长期以来一直低估了当时掌握在自己手中的发现的力量。
So we discover gunpowder.
所以我们发现了火药。
How long until we're shooting each other?
我们还要多久才能互相开枪？
We discover nuclear fission.
我们发现了核裂变。
Now are we going to destroy the planet?
现在我们要毁灭这个星球吗？
So social media, in a sense, it's a discovery.
所以从某种意义上说，社交媒体是一个发现。
It's a thing that comes from what we've figured out as humans that now is there in front of us.
这是我们作为人类所发现的东西，现在就在我们面前。
And big, powerful discoveries deserve to be treated with respect.
伟大而有力的发现值得受到尊重。
Gunpowder is very powerful, and if people need to hunt in order to survive, gunpowder can help them hunt without getting hurt and maybe be more successful.
火药的威力非常强大，如果人们需要狩猎才能生存，火药可以帮助他们狩猎而不会受伤，也许还会更成功。
Nuclear fission has provided some good things to humanity, but it can also destroy humanity.
核裂变给人类带来了一些美好的事物，但它也可以毁灭人类。
So I think the same is true here, that what you're talking about is something of immense power, and you can see how if it gets out of balance.
所以我认为这里也是如此，你所谈论的是具有巨大力量的东西，你可以看到如果它失去平衡会如何。
So let's use the salience.
所以让我们使用显着性。
So let's say the social media is too salient.
所以可以说社交媒体太突出了。
That's going to make a problem.
这会产生问题。
If it's too salient in the sense that the person is always looking at things that don't make them feel good enough.
如果它太突出，意味着人们总是在看那些让他们感觉不够好的东西。
Well, that's not going to go well, and that's going to affect what's in those other 10 cupboards and what is built on top of it.
好吧，这不会很顺利，而且会影响其他 10 个橱柜里的东西以及上面的东西。
So then it gets into the unconscious mind like, "Oh, I thought I was good enough until now I'm looking at all this social media and I realize I'm not." People who treat teens often talk about this, that you see something that you didn't often see before, where a person who might have gotten through a lot of formative years thinking like, "Oh, how I look is okay," for example, then is bombarding themselves with social media that tells them how they look is not okay, and then that changes.
然后它就会进入潜意识，比如，“哦，我以为我已经足够好了，直到现在我看着所有这些社交媒体，我意识到我还不够好。”对待青少年的人经常谈论这一点，你会看到一些你以前不常看到的东西，例如，一个人可能经历了很多成长岁月，想着“哦，我看起来怎么样”，然后用社交媒体轰炸自己，告诉他们自己看起来怎么样，然后情况就发生了变化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Or perhaps social media is just simply absorbing a ton of time and energy, but mostly time, that could be devoted to a generative force.
或者也许社交媒体只是简单地吸收了大量的时间和精力，但大部分时间可以用于产生生产力。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right.
对。
That's the other side of it.
这是事情的另一面。
So think about the example of the person who, I know it wasn't social media, but we were saying what if it were social media?
因此，想一想这个人的例子，我知道这不是社交媒体，但我们说如果是社交媒体怎么办？
That instead of 90 minutes a day, it's eight hours.
每天的工作时间不再是 90 分钟，而是 8 个小时。
Because there's an analog there.
因为那里有一个类似物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
And we see a lot of this, and it's taking something that can be good, and in a sense, even should be good.
我们看到了很多这样的事情，它采取了一些好的东西，从某种意义上说，甚至应该是好的。
There's enough out there in terms of learning and bolstering that why should it not be good?
在学习和支持方面已经有足够多的东西了，为什么不应该是好的呢？
But it's not good because the defenses then shift.
但这并不好，因为防守会发生变化。
If you're relying on it 10 hours a day, there has to be some denial, because there are other things to do in the world.
如果你每天依赖它10个小时，就必须有所否认，因为世界上还有其他事情要做。
There has to be some avoidance.
必须有一些回避。
There has to be some rationalization.
必须有一些合理化。
Something is going on there that's not healthy.
那里正在发生一些不健康的事情。
So if you tell me this person is utilizing social media 10 hours a day, they're not looking at things that make them feel bad about themselves.
因此，如果你告诉我这个人每天使用社交媒体 10 个小时，那么他们不会关注那些让他们自我感觉不好的事情。
They're just doing it.
他们只是在做。
Then I think, okay, something is out of balance.
然后我想，好吧，有些东西不平衡了。
Now, it may be that that person's defenses are out of balance.
现在，可能是那个人的防御失去了平衡。
So think about the example of the person with a job they didn't like.
因此，想一想那些从事着不喜欢的工作的人的例子。
Then their defensive structure changes.
然后他们的防守结构发生了变化。
Then the thing that was good for them, they rely on too much, and now it becomes something that's not good for them.
那么对他们有利的东西，他们依赖太多，现在就变成了对他们不利的东西。
So then you go and look at what else is out of balance here.
那么你去看看这里还有什么不平衡的地方。
What else is driving this?
还有什么因素在推动这一趋势？
Now, maybe it's being driven by the change in defense mechanisms, et cetera.
现在，也许它是由防御机制的变化等驱动的。
Maybe it's the other way around, that this person just kind of habituated to doing more and more and more and more of it, and then you would come at it in a different way of, okay, can you slowly but surely do less?
也许恰恰相反，这个人只是习惯了做越来越多的事情，然后你会以不同的方式来处理它，好吧，你能慢慢但肯定做得更少吗？
Replace the time with things that were good before.
用以前美好的事物代替时间。
Because you could then back that person out to where they were before.
因为你可以让那个人回到之前的位置。
But you're not going to back the person out to where they were before if it's being driven by something else.
但如果是受到其他因素的驱使，你就不会让这个人回到原来的状态。
So we again come to the curiosity.
所以我们又回到了好奇心。
You tell me that person is on social media 14 hours a day.
你告诉我那个人一天 14 小时都在社交媒体上。
I'm curious.
我很好奇。
I want to understand what is the balance of those drives.
我想了解这些驱动器的平衡是什么。
You've just told me a very powerful point about salience that doesn't sound like a good one, so already you're giving me clues about where the drives are, which means where's that person at?
你刚刚告诉我一个关于显着性的非常有力的观点，但这听起来不太好，所以你已经给了我关于驱动器在哪里的线索，这意味着那个人在哪里？
What's going on in all those cabinets?
这些柜子里到底发生了什么？
Then you give more information.
然后你提供更多信息。
Now sit and talk with the person.
现在坐下来与此人交谈。
Now you're going to understand what is the lay of the land here, and how do we go about making it better?
现在您将了解这里的情况，以及我们如何使其变得更好？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love the concept of the generative drive, first of all, because it's pro-social.
我喜欢生成内驱力的概念，首先，因为它是亲社会的。
It brings about great things for us and for the world.
它为我们和世界带来了伟大的事情。
And what is better than peace, contentment, and delight?
还有什么比平安、满足和喜乐更好的呢？
Especially when we remind ourselves that those are active phrases or those can be achieved and experienced inside of action.
尤其是当我们提醒自己这些是活跃的短语或者那些可以在行动中实现和体验的短语时。
It's not just sitting, levitating, navel-gazing, that sort of thing.
这不仅仅是坐着、悬浮、凝视肚脐之类的事情。
So it's not enlightenment.
所以这不是开悟。
It's peace, contentment, and delight.
这是平安、满足和喜乐。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Very big difference, right?
差别很大吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very big difference, yes.
差别很大，是的。
One of the other reasons I love this concept of the generative drive so much is also because it is a verb state.
我如此喜欢生成驱动力这个概念的另一个原因也是因为它是一种动词状态。
It has to do with creating things in us and in the world, in cultivating our experience of things and what we do and what we say and how we respond to what others do and say.
它与在我们和世界上创造事物有关，与培养我们对事物的经验、我们所做的、我们所说的以及我们如何回应他人的言行有关。
And I also like it because it's distinct from the way that we're normally taught to think about psychological well-being or being a healthy individual, which usually centers around a discussion of goals and values and what am I trying to focus on, and what sorts of people do I want to engage with in the world?
我还喜欢它，因为它与我们通常被教导的思考心理健康或成为一个健康个体的方式不同，后者通常围绕目标和价值观的讨论，以及我想关注什么，以及我想与世界上什么样的人打交道？
And certainly, all of that is really important, goals and who you engage with.
当然，所有这些都非常重要，目标和与你接触的人。
But I think for many people out there, much of their time is spent thinking about other people.
但我认为对于很多人来说，他们的大部分时间都花在思考其他人上。
Like how healthy or unhealthy are the people they're dating or their friends, or what's going on between two family members, which, of course, is fine to think about, but a lot of emphasis is placed on our assessments of others and how those are impacting us.
比如他们约会的人或他们的朋友有多健康或不健康，或者两个家庭成员之间发生了什么，当然，考虑这些很好，但很多重点都放在我们对他人的评估以及这些评估如何影响我们上。
And in some cases, people default to just thinking about others and their problems and seeing their problems.
在某些情况下，人们默认只考虑他人和他们的问题并看到他们的问题。
And what we're really talking about here is a process of introspection and inquiry that's very structured, and as it's been laid out by you, these two pillars, structure of self, function of self, with these 10 cupboards.
我们在这里真正谈论的是一个非常结构化的内省和询问的过程，正如你所阐述的，这两个支柱，自我的结构，自我的功能，以及这 10 个柜子。
That might sound like a lot of cupboards, but as we talked about in the first episode, all of that flows up to these-
这听起来像是很多橱柜，但正如我们在第一集中讨论的那样，所有这些都归结为这些——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
very simple-
很简单——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
ideals and concepts and action-
理想、理念和行动——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
states and ways of being.
状态和存在方式。
And to me, there's nothing more powerful than the statement that what we are all seeking are states of agency and gratitude.
对我来说，没有什么比我们都在寻求的是代理和感恩的状态更强大的声明了。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because again, to go back to the analogy of physical fitness, there are not an infinite number of different physical states or states of fitness that one can seek.
因为，回到身体健康的类比，一个人可以寻求的不同身体状态或健康状态并不存在无限多种。
There's endurance, there's strength, there's flexibility, there's dynamic movement, there's explosiveness, there's speed.
有耐力、有力量、有灵活性、有动态运动、有爆发力、有速度。
There are a bunch of subtleties to it, but here, it really seems that the psyche, ourselves, and our mental health is really tractable if we turn the lens and we look inward.
其中有很多微妙之处，但在这里，如果我们转动镜头并向内看，我们的心灵、我们自己和我们的心理健康似乎真的很容易控制。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yes.
是的。
I think that hits upon a very important point as we talk about understanding oneself and the process of change.
我认为当我们谈论了解自己和改变的过程时，这触及到了一个非常重要的观点。
And I would describe that as rational aspiration.
我将其描述为理性愿望。
So let's use the physical health example.
让我们以身体健康为例。
If I think, okay, I want to be healthier.
如果我想，好吧，我想变得更健康。
I want to have more strength, I want to have more endurance, and I might even have ideas of what that would be.
我想要有更多的力量，我想要有更多的耐力，我什至可能知道那会是什么。
I want to be able to run a certain distance in a certain time, lift a certain amount of weight.
我希望能够在一定的时间内跑一定的距离，举起一定的重量。
I have an idea of what that is.
我知道那是什么。
But rational aspiration is rooted in our present, where I'm aware that there's a me now that isn't in that state.
但理性的愿望植根于我们的现在，我知道现在有一个我不在那种状态。
And I'm aware that there are things that I'm going to do to get to that state.
我知道我需要做一些事情才能达到那个状态。
And I'm not dreading them, like okay, they'll be difficult.
我并不害怕他们，好吧，他们会很困难。
But that's okay.
但没关系。
I can do difficult things.
我可以做困难的事情。
I can take pride in doing difficult things, and that's how we all achieve things.
我可以为完成困难的事情而感到自豪，这就是我们取得成就的方式。
So I see myself in the present, because, of course, goals are good and that's true as long as we're still living our lives in the present, because otherwise, goals just become fantasies or things we want to possess.
所以我看到自己活在当下，因为当然，目标是好的，只要我们仍然活在当下，目标就是正确的，因为否则，目标就会变成幻想或我们想要拥有的东西。
So if I'm aware of the state of physical health I'm in right now and I'm aware of the state of physical health I want to be in, and I know there's a bunch of pathways I could take to get there, but I have to think about it, figure it out, do those things, and then I'm going to navigate myself there.
因此，如果我意识到我现在所处的身体健康状态，并且我意识到我想要的身体健康状态，并且我知道我可以采取很多途径来实现这一目标，但我必须思考它，弄清楚它，做这些事情，然后我将引导自己到达那里。
That's how the whole process is good.
这样整个过程就很好了。
I don't feel bad about myself now.
我现在对自己并不感到难过。
I recognize something I would like to change.
我认识到我想要改变的事情。
I'm not saying, "Oh, you're a loser because you don't have those things." I feel good about myself now.
我并不是说，“哦，你是一个失败者，因为你没有这些东西。”我现在自我感觉良好。
I recognize there's something I want and there's going to be a process, a process across time, across effort, that's going to navigate me there.
我认识到有一些我想要的东西，并且会有一个过程，一个跨越时间、跨越努力的过程，它将引导我到达那里。
Then when I get there, I feel good about being there.
然后当我到达那里时，我就在那里感觉很好。
It's very different if I think I want that.
如果我认为我想要那样，那就非常不同了。
I want to possess, in a sense.
从某种意义上说，我想占有。
I want to possess the ability to run a certain distance in a certain time.
我想拥有在一定时间内跑一定距离的能力。
I just want the thing.
我只是想要那个东西。
I'm covetous of the thing.
我对这个东西很贪婪。
That is not good.
那可不好。
Because the person then often is denigrating to the self, not always, but that's a motivation to go out and get that thing that's better, and they're really lamenting the process of getting there.
因为这个人经常会贬低自己，并非总是如此，但这是走出去并获得更好的东西的动力，而且他们真的对实现这一目标的过程感到遗憾。
They just want something as an endpoint.
他们只是想要一些东西作为终点。
And that doesn't make for happiness.
但这并不能带来幸福。
It doesn't make for even the humility and humility in action, the gratitude.
它甚至不会带来行动上的谦卑和谦卑，以及感激之情。
The humility is I can't just do that overnight.
谦虚的是我不能一夜之间做到这一点。
I'm going to have to work hard.
我得努力工作。
People have to work hard.
人们必须努力工作。
I'm no different than anybody else.
我和其他人没有什么不同。
I'm not special.
我并不特别。
I got to get in there and work and use the elbow grease, and then I'll get healthier.
我必须进去工作，努力工作，然后我就会变得更健康。
All of that is good.
所有这些都很好。
The "I just want to possess something" is not good, and that's why people in scenarios like this, they might go through maybe in an unthinking way or they're gutting it out, whatever.
“我只是想拥有一些东西”是不好的，这就是为什么人们在这种情况下，他们可能会以一种不假思索的方式经历，或者他们正在把它掏空，无论如何。
They go and they get that thing.
他们走了，他们得到了那个东西。
But then that thing is not enough, and they want more.
但那还不够，他们还想要更多。
Now, there's nothing wrong with wanting more if it's the healthy enaction of self.
现在，如果这是健康的自我表现，想要更多并没有什么错。
I'm going to now map my way.
我现在要绘制我的路线。
This feels better.
这感觉好多了。
I want to map myself from here to the next level of better physical fitness.
我想将自己从现在提升到更高的身体素质水平。
That's different than I just want that thing, because then if I get it, it won't be good enough.
这与我仅仅想要那个东西不同，因为如果我得到了它，它就不够好。
It doesn't make me happy.
这并不让我高兴。
It doesn't satisfy me.
这并不能令我满意。
And that's the unhealthy state of just wanting things to possess them, and then we don't feel good about them, which is the thought of if you give a person something, they'll resent you for it.
这是一种不健康的状态，只是想要东西占有它们，然后我们对它们感觉不好，这就是如果你给一个人一些东西，他们会因此而怨恨你的想法。
Again, we're painting it in a sort of certain way.
同样，我们以某种特定的方式来绘制它。
The context of that statement, which I used to hear a lot, even when I was younger, people would say that.
这句话的背景，我经常听到，即使在我年轻的时候，人们也会这么说。
And what were they trying to get at?
他们想达到什么目的？
What they were getting at is it doesn't feel good if you didn't work for something.
他们的意思是，如果你不为某件事而努力，那感觉就不太好。
If you didn't work very hard and you got a C, but I give you an A, or somebody gives me an A.
如果你工作不努力，得了 C，但我给你 A，或者有人给我 A。
I know that that's not good.
我知道这样不好。
I know that I got the thing.
我知道我得到了东西。
I got the A, and I might feel happy in the moment because I wanted that thing.
我得了 A，那一刻我可能会感到高兴，因为我想要那件事。
But there's no Real pleasure in it.
但其中并没有真正的乐趣。
There's no satisfaction, there's no contentment, there's no sense of self, there's nothing generative.
没有满足感，没有满足感，没有自我意识，没有任何生产力。
I didn't work hard enough to go from a C to an A, right?
我没有足够努力地从 C 变成 A，对吗？
So it's that, and that really brings us back to the self that we're growing on top of the structure, right?
就是这样，这确实让我们回到了在结构之上成长的自我，对吗？
And how that self is functioning, right?
这个自我是如何运作的，对吗？
How it's striving.
是怎样努力的。
Because now we're really talking about strivings, and if I'm going to strive for something and work hard to get it, will I get the good feeling on the other side of it?
因为现在我们真正谈论的是奋斗，如果我要为某件事而奋斗并努力获得它，我会在另一面得到良好的感觉吗？
And now we're living in the generative space.
现在我们生活在生成空间中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I love the structure of what you've laid out.
嗯，我喜欢你所布置的结构。
Again-
再说一遍——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Thank you
谢谢你
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the pillars of structure of self and function of self, with 10 cupboards between the two of them that, when explored, can seem a little bit complex, but they're really some very straightforward types of inquiry that anyone can go about, about self-awareness, and address potential defense mechanisms.
自我结构和自我功能的支柱，两者之间有 10 个橱柜，当探索时，它们看起来有点复杂，但它们确实是任何人都可以进行的一些非常简单的询问类型，关于自我意识，并解决潜在的防御机制。
What we're conscious of, maybe what we're not conscious of, look at our behaviors and our strivings, and how that flows up to these simple ideals, again, of empowerment, humility, agency, and gratitude as verbs.
我们意识到了什么，也许我们没有意识到什么，看看我们的行为和我们的努力，以及它们如何发展成这些简单的理想，再一次，作为动词的赋权、谦逊、能动性和感恩。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then from that, peace, contentment, and delight, and the generative drive, which, gosh, if there ever was a more powerful concept and something to strive for, I don't think it exists.
然后，从此，平静、满足、喜悦，以及生成动力，天哪，如果有一个更强大的概念和值得努力的东西，我认为它不存在。
Because the generative drive is extraordinary in the number of different ways it plays out, and it seems always positively, right?
因为生成内驱力的表现方式多种多样，而且似乎总是积极的，对吗？
And of course, the aggressive drive, the pleasure drive exists to varying extents in all of us, but cannot be allowed to overcome the generative drive if we're going to really thrive.
当然，我们每个人都不同程度地存在着攻击性内驱力、快乐性内驱力，但如果我们想要真正茁壮成长，就不能让其克服生成性内驱力。
So thank you again so much for this framework, and again, to remind people listening and watching that this framework is mapped out in a downloadable PDF if people want to see it visually, even though we've touched on it several times before.
因此，再次非常感谢您提供这个框架，并再次提醒人们，如果人们想直观地看到它，即使我们之前已经多次触及过它，但如果人们想直观地看到它，这个框架已在可下载的 PDF 中列出。
I really appreciate how logical, clear, and actionable this framework is.
我真的很欣赏这个框架的逻辑性、清晰性和可操作性。
And also that in providing a framework for us, it gives us something to hold our mind to.
而且在为我们提供一个框架的同时，它也给了我们一些可以坚持的东西。
I think I and so many people out there are familiar with being in a struggle and not being able to orient.
我想我和很多人都熟悉陷入困境并且无法确定方向。
Like where am I in the struggle?
就像我在斗争中处于什么位置？
Not knowing what to do.
不知道该怎么办。
And you've provided some incredible points of reference for us to really focus on, start asking questions about I and how I see myself.
您为我们提供了一些令人难以置信的参考点，让我们真正关注并开始询问有关我以及我如何看待自己的问题。
What am I paying attention to, and so on and so forth, to really first anchor and orient, and then be able to move forward in this process as many times as is required to get where we each and all want to go.
我要注意什么，等等，首先要真正定位和定位，然后能够在这个过程中多次前进，以到达我们每个人都想去的地方。
So thank you so much for this.
非常感谢您。
I know in our next discussion, we're going to touch on the relational aspects of human existence.
我知道在我们的下一次讨论中，我们将触及人类存在的关系方面。
Not just selves, but interactions between selves, including some of the, let's call it, darker and unfortunate aspects of human existence, like narcissists and some of the challenges of different full-blown personality disorders.
不仅仅是自我，还有自我之间的互动，包括人类存在的一些黑暗和不幸的方面，比如自恋者和不同的全面人格障碍的一些挑战。
But also just in terms of building healthy relationships between friends, romantic partners, parents and children-
但也只是在朋友、浪漫伴侣、父母和孩子之间建立健康的关系方面——
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and siblings, and coworkers, and all the rest.
还有兄弟姐妹、同事，以及所有其他人。
So thank you again for this incredibly rich knowledge that you provided us, and a map forward.
再次感谢您为我们提供的极其丰富的知识以及前进的方向。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
You're very welcome, and thank you.
非常欢迎你，谢谢你。
I appreciate the opportunity to talk about it with you.
我很高兴有机会与您讨论这个问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Well, to be continued.
嗯，待续。
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion about how to improve your mental health with Dr. Paul Conti.
感谢您今天与我一起与 Paul Conti 博士讨论如何改善心理健康。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请在 Spotify 和 Apple 上订阅该播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast, or guests that you'd like me to consider hosting on the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问或对播客有意见，或者您希望我考虑在 Huberman Lab 播客上主持嘉宾，请将这些内容放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
And if you're not already following me on social media, I am hubermanlab on all platforms.
如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有平台上的 hubermanlab。
So that's Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn, Threads, and Facebook.
这就是 Instagram、Twitter、LinkedIn、Threads 和 Facebook。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlap with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content of the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容不同。
So again, it's hubermanlab on all social media channels.
再说一次，所有社交媒体渠道上都是 hubermanlab。
Not on today's episode, but on many previous episodes of the Huberman Lab podcast, we discuss supplements.
不是在今天的节目中，而是在 Huberman Lab 播客的许多之前的节目中，我们讨论了补充剂。
While supplements aren't necessary for everybody, many people derive tremendous benefit from them, for things like enhancing sleep, for hormone support, and for focus.
虽然补充剂并不是每个人都需要的，但许多人都从它们中获得了巨大的好处，例如增强睡眠、激素支持和注意力集中。
If you'd like to see the supplements discussed on the Huberman Lab podcast, you can go to Live Momentous, spelled O-U-S.
如果您想查看 Huberman Lab 播客上讨论的补充剂，您可以访问 Live Momentous（拼写为 O-U-S）。
So it's livemomentous.com/huberman.
所以它是 livemomentous.com/huberman。
If you haven't already subscribed to our newsletter, it is a zero-cost newsletter called the Neural Network Newsletter, and in the Neural Network Newsletter, you get free podcast summaries as well as toolkits.
如果您还没有订阅我们的时事通讯，这是一份名为“神经网络时事通讯”的零成本时事通讯，在神经网络时事通讯中，您可以获得免费的播客摘要和工具包。
The toolkits are brief PDFs that list off the specific science-backed protocols for things like improving your sleep, improving focus, optimizing dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.
这些工具包是简短的 PDF，列出了具体的科学支持的方案，例如改善睡眠、提高注意力、优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等。
We have a complete summary of our fitness series.
我们对健身系列有一个完整的总结。
Again, all available, completely zero cost.
再次强调，一切可用，完全零成本。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu, scroll down to Newsletter, and provide your email to sign up.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，进入菜单，向下滚动到时事通讯，然后提供您的电子邮件即可注册。
We do not share your email with anybody.
我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Paul Conti.
再次感谢您参加今天与 Paul Conti 博士的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。