Guest Series | Dr. Paul Conti: How to Build and Maintain Healthy Relationships

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Welcome to the Huberman Lab Guest Series, where I and an expert guest discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

欢迎来到胡伯曼实验室嘉宾系列，我和一位专家嘉宾讨论了日常生活中的科学和基于科学的工具。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

Today marks the third episode in our four-episode series about mental health with Dr. Paul Conti.

今天是保罗·康迪博士关于心理健康的四集系列节目的第三集。

Today's episode deals with the topic of healthy relationships, how to define what a healthy relationship is, and how to achieve healthy relationships of all kinds, including romantic relationships, interpersonal relationships at work, friendships with family, and, of course, with oneself.

今天这一集的主题是健康的人际关系，如何定义什么是健康的关系，以及如何建立各种健康的关系，包括恋爱关系、工作中的人际关系、与家人的友谊，当然还有与自己的友谊。

This episode builds on the framework of the psychology of self and mental health that was established in the first and second episodes of this series.

本集建立在本系列第一集和第二集建立的自我心理学和心理健康框架的基础上。

However, even if you didn't listen to the first or second episode in this series, today's episode will still contain a lot of information and protocols that you will find valuable for improving your relationships.

然而，即使您没有听本系列的第一集或第二集，今天的剧集仍将包含大量信息和协议，您会发现它们对改善人际关系很有价值。

That said, if you have the opportunity to listen to the first and second episodes in this series, I think you'll find those to be tremendously beneficial at any point.

也就是说，如果您有机会收听本系列的第一集和第二集，我认为您会发现它们在任何时候都非常有益。

During today's episode, Dr. Conti discusses what makes for a successful relationship of any kind, as well as tools to improve those relationships.

在今天的节目中，孔蒂博士讨论了任何类型的成功关系的要素，以及改善这些关系的工具。

He discusses various types of bonds, including healthy bonds and trauma bonds, not just in the context of romantic relationship, but in the context of all types of relationships.

他讨论了各种类型的纽带，包括健康纽带和创伤纽带，不仅在浪漫关系的背景下，而且在所有类型的关系的背景下。

We also discuss different challenges that people face in relationships, including abusive relationships, and we discuss the role of power dynamics, anxiety, and boundaries in relationships, both from the perspective of unhealthy relationships, but more importantly, from the understanding and protocols to cultivate healthy relationships.

我们还讨论了人们在关系中面临的不同挑战，包括虐待关系，并讨论了权力动态、焦虑和界限在关系中的作用，既从不健康关系的角度，但更重要的是从培养健康关系的理解和协议。

While there is an abundance of opinions and information out there on the Internet these days about relationships, both healthy and unhealthy, today's discussion approaches the topic of relationships through an entirely different lens, which is the lens of the self in terms of one's conscious and subconscious mind, and how multiple conscious and subconscious minds through different individuals interact with one another in ways that we can see and ways that we can't see.

虽然现在互联网上有大量关于健康和不健康的人际关系的观点和信息，但今天的讨论通过一个完全不同的视角来探讨人际关系的主题，即一个人的意识和潜意识的自我镜头，以及通过不同个体的多个意识和潜意识如何以我们看得见和看不见的方式相互作用。

And all of that framed within the actionable steps that any of us can take to improve our relationship to ourself and to others.

所有这些都包含在我们任何人都可以采取的可行步骤中，以改善我们与自己和他人的关系。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。

Our first sponsor is BetterHelp.

我们的第一个赞助商是 BetterHelp。

BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out all online.

BetterHelp 提供由持证治疗师在线进行的专业治疗。

Now, I've been doing therapy for more than 30 years.

现在，我从事治疗已经30多年了。

And while I confess that initially I was forced to do that therapy as a condition for being let back into high school, over time, I learned that therapy is a tremendously valuable practice.

虽然我承认最初我被迫接受这种治疗作为重返高中的条件，但随着时间的推移，我了解到治疗是一种非常有价值的实践。

In fact, I consider doing regular weekly therapy as just as important as doing regular physical exercise in order to improve one's health.

事实上，为了改善健康，我认为每周定期进行治疗与定期进行体育锻炼同样重要。

The beauty of BetterHelp is that it makes it extremely easy to find a therapist that's excellent for you.

BetterHelp 的美妙之处在于它使您可以非常轻松地找到最适合您的治疗师。

And we can define an excellent therapist as somebody who's going to give you a lot of support, but in an objective way, as well as somebody with whom you can have excellent rapport and that can help you arrive at positively transformative insights that you wouldn't have otherwise had.

我们可以将优秀的治疗师定义为能够以客观的方式为您提供大量支持的人，以及能够与您保持良好融洽关系并能够帮助您获得原本无法获得的积极变革性见解的人。

And with BetterHelp, they make it convenient so that it's matched to your schedule and the other aspects of your life.

借助 BetterHelp，它们可以让您变得更加方便，以便与您的日程安排和生活的其他方面相匹配。

If you'd like to try BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month.

如果您想尝试 BetterHelp，请访问 betterhelp.com/huberman，第一个月可享受 10% 的折扣。

Again, that's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P, .com/huberman.

再说一遍，这是 BetterHelp，H-E-L-P，.com/huberman。

Today's episode is also brought to us by Waking Up.

今天的节目也是由Wakeing Up为我们带来的。

Waking Up is a meditation app that offers dozens of guided meditation sessions, mindfulness trainings, yoga nidra sessions, and more.

Waking Up 是一款冥想应用程序，提供数十个引导冥想课程、正念训练、瑜伽休息课程等。

By now, there's an abundance of data showing that even short daily meditations can greatly improve our mood, reduce anxiety, improve our ability to focus, and can improve our memory.

到目前为止，有大量数据表明，即使是每天短暂的冥想也可以极大地改善我们的情绪，减少焦虑，提高我们的注意力，并可以提高我们的记忆力。

And while there are many different forms of meditation, most people find it difficult to find and stick to a meditation practice in a way that is most beneficial for them.

虽然冥想有许多不同的形式，但大多数人发现很难找到并坚持对他们最有益的冥想练习。

The Waking Up app makes it extremely easy to learn how to meditate and to carry out your daily meditation practice in a way that's going to be most effective and efficient for you.

Wake Up 应用程序让您可以非常轻松地学习如何冥想，并以对您来说最有效和高效的方式进行日常冥想练习。

It includes a variety of different types of meditations of different duration, as well as things like yoga nidra, which place the brain and body into a sort of pseudo-sleep that allows you to emerge feeling incredibly mentally refreshed.

它包括各种不同类型、不同持续时间的冥想，以及瑜伽休息术等，它可以让大脑和身体进入一种假睡眠状态，让你在醒来时感觉精神焕发。

In fact, the science around yoga nidra is really impressive, showing that after a yoga nidra session, levels of dopamine in certain areas of the brain are enhanced by up to 60%, which places the brain and body into a state of enhanced readiness for mental work and for physical work.

事实上，有关瑜伽休息术的科学确实令人印象深刻，表明在瑜伽休息术之后，大脑某些区域的多巴胺水平提高了 60%，这使大脑和身体进入一种为脑力工作和体力工作做好准备的状态。

Another thing I really like about the Waking Up app is that it provides a 30-day introduction course.

我真正喜欢 Waking Up 应用程序的另一件事是它提供了 30 天的入门课程。

So for those of you that have not meditated before or are getting back to a meditation practice, that's fantastic.

因此，对于那些以前没有冥想过或正在重新进行冥想练习的人来说，这真是太棒了。

Or if you're somebody who's already a skilled and regular meditator, Waking Up has more advanced meditations and yoga nidra sessions for you as well.

或者，如果您已经是一名熟练且定期的冥想者，Wake Up 也为您提供更高级的冥想和瑜伽休息课程。

If you'd like to try the Waking Up app, you can go to wakingup.com/huberman and access a free 30-day trial.

如果您想尝试 Waking Up 应用程序，可以访问 wakingup.com/huberman 并获得 30 天的免费试用。

Again, that's wakingup.com/huberman.

再说一遍，那就是 wakingup.com/huberman。

And now for my discussion about mental health with Dr. Paul Conti.

现在我将与保罗·康迪博士讨论心理健康问题。

Dr. Conti, welcome back.

孔蒂博士，欢迎回来。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Thank you.

谢谢你。

Happy to be here.

很高兴来到这里。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Today, we're going to discuss relationships, and that will often focus on romantic relationships, but also relationships between friends, between family members, and inevitably, the relationship to self-

今天，我们要讨论的关系，通常会集中于恋爱关系，但也包括朋友之间的关系、家庭成员之间的关系，以及不可避免的与自我的关系。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

which is what we really focused on in episodes one and two of this series.

这是我们在本系列第一集和第二集中真正关注的内容。

Episode one being all the things that go into a healthy self and how to understand what is unhealthy and healthy in all of us and make adjustments-

第一集是关于健康自我的所有事情，以及如何了解我们所有人的不健康和健康并做出调整-

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

to the unhealthy aspects of our unconscious and conscious through really specific proactive behaviors and patterns of thought.

通过真正具体的主动行为和思维模式来应对我们无意识和意识的不健康方面。

So really a roadmap to these ideals that we call mental health and understanding of the self.

因此，这实际上是实现这些理想的路线图，我们称之为心理健康和对自我的理解。

Today, we want to talk about relationships from the perspective of, of course, how people relate, but I have a feeling it's going to have something to do with, or perhaps almost everything to do with, our relationship to understanding ourselves first.

今天，我们当然想从人们如何相处的角度来谈论关系，但我有一种感觉，这将与我们首先了解自己的关系有关，或者几乎与我们的关系有关。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So just to make sure that we're all on the same page, regardless of whether or not people have seen episodes one and two, and certainly people Do not need to have seen or listened to episodes one and two of this series in order to understand today's discussion.

因此，为了确保我们都达成共识，无论人们是否看过第一集和第二集，当然人们也不需要看过或听过本系列的第一集和第二集才能理解今天的讨论。

Could you please tell us what is a healthy person, and how can we ask ourselves the sorts of questions that allow us to determine whether or not we are healthy, and where to look in terms of making adjustments if we want to be healthier than we already are?

您能否告诉我们什么是健康的人？我们如何问自己一些问题来确定我们是否健康？如果我们想比现在更健康，应该从哪里进行调整？

Which I have to believe almost everybody, if not everybody, certainly wants to be the healthiest and best expression of themselves so that they can do the most for themselves and for others in the world.

我必须相信，几乎每个人（如果不是每个人）肯定都希望成为自己最健康、最好的表达方式，这样他们就可以为自己和世界上的其他人做最多的事情。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

So the linchpin of it all is the agency and gratitude as verbs.

所以这一切的关键是作为动词的代理和感激。

That's the top of the mountain.

那是山顶。

There's a lot of climbing we do to get to the top of the mountain.

为了到达山顶，我们进行了很多攀登。

Once we're over the top of the mountain, then things are in a better place.

一旦我们登上了山顶，事情就会变得更好。

And even though they're two words, agency is, of course, a word, gratitude is a word, but it doesn't mean that they're separate concepts.

尽管它们是两个词，但代理当然是一个词，感恩是一个词，但这并不意味着它们是不同的概念。

Approaching the world through the lens of agency and gratitude, thought of as one thing because they come together and they come together as verbs.

通过代理和感恩的视角来看待世界，被认为是一回事，因为它们聚集在一起并且作为动词聚集在一起。

That's what we're aiming for.

这就是我们的目标。

Because that's the thing that we can work towards.

因为这就是我们可以努力的方向。

If you think about what comes underneath of that.

如果你想一想这背后的原因。

It takes us back to the two pillars and the 10 cupboards.

这让我们回到了两根柱子和十个柜子。

And if we're looking in there enough, we're mining, like what is in my unconscious mind I might not be aware of?

如果我们足够多地观察，我们就会挖掘，就像我的潜意识里有什么我可能没有意识到的？

Let me generate some curiosity about my defense mechanisms and my character structure and think about what's salient inside of me.

让我对我的防御机制和我的性格结构产生一些好奇心，并思考我内心的显着特征。

If we're doing all of that, then what we're doing, we're building empowerment, we're building humility, and then ultimately the expression of all of that is the agency and gratitude.

如果我们正在做所有这些，那么我们正在做的就是建立授权，我们正在建立谦逊，然后所有这一切的最终表达就是代理和感激之情。

And it's something that we can't have enough of.

这是我们不能拥有的。

Like I say, what's the best amount of that?

就像我说的，最好的数量是多少？

The most that's possible.

最大可能。

Because we're going to engage in the world in the healthiest way, because agency and gratitude, it doesn't mean we're happy about everything.

因为我们将以最健康的方式参与这个世界，因为代理和感恩，这并不意味着我们对一切都感到高兴。

If there's something negative and we can change that, then we don't feel happy about that.

如果存在一些负面的东西，而我们可以改变它，那么我们就会对此感到不高兴。

The sense of gratitude in me makes me more likely to feel that I can change that.

我内心的感激之情让我更有可能觉得我可以改变这一点。

Or to take the chance of trying to change that, and then the agency part of that concept can come more to the fore, and I can make the change.

或者抓住机会尝试改变这一点，然后该概念的代理部分可以更加突出，我可以做出改变。

So it's not about bliss.

所以这与幸福无关。

It's not about forgiving self and others for all sorts of things and not working to make better.

这并不是要原谅自己和他人的各种事情，而不是努力变得更好。

It's about being in the world and being as aware as I can possibly be, including being aware that there are things I'm not aware of.

这是关于生活在这个世界上并尽可能地意识到这一点，包括意识到有些事情是我不知道的。

So sort of having a healthy respect and an orientation to the world that values truth and values understanding and exploration.

因此，对重视真理、重视理解和探索的世界抱有健康的尊重和导向。

If we do all of that, then we reach the top of the mountain through the agency and gratitude.

如果我们做到了这一切，那么我们就能通过代理和感恩到达山顶。

And then what builds upon that or what comes from that is the peace, the contentment, the delight, the generative drive being strengthened.

然后，以此为基础或由此产生的就是平静、满足、喜悦，以及被加强的生成动力。

That all comes together.

这一切都聚集在一起。

And then the aggressive, or we say aggressive because that's the traditional term, but the aggressive or the assertive.

然后是侵略性，或者我们说侵略性，因为这是传统术语，但侵略性或自信。

The assertiveness or assertion drive.

自信或自信驱动力。

Whatever word we want to put to that, that drive exists in us in a way that subserves the generative drive.

无论我们想用什么词来形容，这种内驱力都以一种促进生成内驱力的方式存在于我们体内。

The same thing with the pleasure drive in us.

我们内心的快乐驾驶也是如此。

It exists in us, but it's subserving the generative drive.

它存在于我们体内，但它促进了生成动力。

And then all those good things come together, and they come together to help us be as healthy as we can and to stay healthy.

然后所有这些美好的事物聚集在一起，它们聚集在一起帮助我们尽可能健康并保持健康。

Including when tribulation or difficulties come our way, so that we stay as best we can in the agency and gratitude as verbs.

包括当磨难或困难降临到我们身上时，我们要尽可能地保持代理状态，并以动词表示感激之情。

And again, there's nothing theoretical about this.

再说一次，这没有任何理论依据。

It's a way to live, and there are a lot of people who live some of their lives or parts of their lives through that.

这是一种生活方式，很多人的一部分生活或部分生活就是这样度过的。

And we can aspire to it, and we can work towards it.

我们可以向往它，并且我们可以为之努力。

And if we're the best that we can be, then we're going to be in our relationships the best we can be.

如果我们尽力做到最好，那么我们在人际关系中也会做到最好。

Think about it like you and I have a relationship.

想想看，就像你和我有关系一样。

We know each other.

我们互相认识。

We're working together.

我们正在一起工作。

If I can bring my best self to you, to thinking about you, to understanding you.

如果我能把最好的自己带给你，想你，理解你。

If I can bring the agency and the gratitude, then I'm going to do right by you.

如果我能带来代理和感激之情，那么我就会为你做正确的事。

I'm going to mentalize this idea of thinking about what's going on inside of you.

我将把这个想法想象成思考你内心正在发生的事情。

I'm going to bring the best of all of that.

我将带来最好的一切。

And then because we have a relationship, there's also an us.

因为我们有关系，所以也有我们。

There's a me, there's a you, there's something that happens between us.

有一个我，有一个你，我们之间发生了一些事情。

That's the relationship.

就是这样的关系。

That's the us.

那就是我们。

And I will also bring my best self to that thing that is no longer just me or just you, but that is in us.

我也会把最好的自己带到那个不再只是我或你的东西上，而是在我们之中。

And that applies to all relationships.

这适用于所有关系。

You can apply that to seeking health in every single relationship in our lives.

您可以将其应用于在我们生活中的每一种关系中寻求健康。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What you're saying really speaks to the importance of people taking a real look at themselves.

你所说的确实说明了人们真正审视自己的重要性。

Which is not necessarily an inventory of self in the typical sense that we're used to hearing it, but rather through this lens or map of the self that was spelled out in episodes one and two.

这不一定是我们习惯听到的典型意义上的自我清单，而是通过第一集和第二集中阐述的这个镜头或自我地图。

And again, for those that are just joining the series now, the map, as we're referring to it, is available as a downloadable PDF, in the show note captions.

再说一次，对于那些现在刚刚加入该系列的人来说，我们所指的地图是可下载的 PDF 版本，位于节目注释标题中。

If people want to get that, it's completely zero cost.

如果人们想得到它，那是完全零成本的。

You can just go there and access it or just view it on a screen, print it out, whatever you like.

您可以直接去那里访问它，或者只是在屏幕上查看、打印出来，无论您喜欢什么。

You certainly don't need to do that because here again, we're talking about the core elements of that map, which if I understand correctly, arrive eventually at a set of verb states that we're calling agency and gratitude.

你当然不需要这样做，因为我们再次讨论该地图的核心元素，如果我理解正确的话，最终会到达一组我们称之为代理和感激的动词状态。

Those are not separate, as you pointed out.

正如您所指出的，这些并不是分开的。

They work together.

他们一起工作。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

You described it as on top of the geyser.

你把它描述为在间歇泉的顶部。

And I really like that.

我真的很喜欢这样。

There's a lot of things going on.

有很多事情正在发生。

But then it all uplifts to something.

但随后一切都会有所提升。

And if we're doing it in the right way and in the diligent way, then it is like a geyser and what it's lifting up on top of it is the agency and gratitude.

如果我们以正确的方式和勤奋的方式去做，那么它就像一个间歇泉，在它上面升起的是动力和感激之情。

I love you put those words to it, and I think it captures it really profoundly.

我喜欢你把这些话写出来，我认为它深刻地体现了这一点。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, the stuff that geysers up perhaps deserves a bit of our attention, just for a few moments.

好吧，间歇泉的东西也许值得我们关注一下，只是一会儿。

You describe these two pillars that As I described as geysering up into agency and gratitude in the best circumstances.

你描述了这两个支柱，正如我所描述的，在最好的情况下，它们会逐渐形成代理和感恩。

But the best circumstances, we want to remind ourselves and everybody, are attainable by looking at what's in those pillars.

但我们想提醒自己和每个人，最好的情况是可以通过关注这些支柱中的内容来实现的。

Those two pillars are the structure of self, so really understanding something about the structure of self.

这两个支柱是自我的结构，所以真正了解自我的结构。

So that includes some understanding of the unconscious mind, some understanding of the conscious mind, defense mechanisms, character structure, and self.

因此，这包括对潜意识、意识、防御机制、性格结构和自我的一些理解。

That was all reviewed and described in episodes one and two.

这些都在第一集和第二集中进行了回顾和描述。

As well as the functions of self, which are more of the verb states, the expressions of the structure of self.

还有自我的功能，更多的是动词状态，自我结构的表达。

Self-awareness being the first of those.

自我意识是其中的第一位。

Defense mechanisms in action, and here, I'd be remiss if I didn't tell myself and everybody else again that defense mechanisms are not always bad.

防御机制正在发挥作用，在这里，如果我没有再次告诉自己和其他人，防御机制并不总是坏的，那就是我的失职。

There can be healthy defense mechanisms.

可以有健康的防御机制。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They can protect us in very valuable ways.

他们可以以非常有价值的方式保护我们。

And then this notion of salience, what we pay attention to.

然后是显着性的概念，我们关注的是什么。

What sorts of scripts are going on in our head about ourselves and others?

我们的脑海中正在浮现关于我们自己和他人的什么样的剧本？

What are we paying attention to?

我们关注什么？

How are we interpreting those in our head and to others, and then most importantly, perhaps to ourselves?

我们如何在我们的头脑中以及向他人解释这些内容，最重要的是，也许向我们自己解释这些内容？

And then our actual behaviors, like what are we doing from the time we wake up until the time we go to sleep at night?

然后我们的实际行为，比如从我们醒来到晚上睡觉我们在做什么？

And then our strivings, our sense of hopefulness or perhaps lack of strivings.

然后是我们的奋斗、我们的希望感或缺乏奋斗感。

And there I'm reminded also that nobody does all of these things perfectly all the time.

在那里我还提醒自己，没有人总是能完美地完成所有这些事情。

We all have elements within us that perhaps are not serving to geyser up into agency and gratitude as well as they could, but that all of us have the capacity to look at these two pillars and these 10 things that were just listed off as you describe them as cupboards that we look into and examine and think about, and that if we can do that with a skilled clinician like yourself or another psychiatrist or psychologist, terrific.

我们内心都有一些元素，也许并不能尽其所能地激发出能动性和感激之情，但我们所有人都有能力审视这两个支柱，以及刚刚列出的这 10 件事，正如你将它们描述为我们调查、检查和思考的橱柜一样，如果我们能与像你这样的熟练临床医生或其他精神病学家或心理学家一起做到这一点，那就太棒了。

But even if we don't have access to that, that we can examine within us what is and is not serving to geyser up into agency and gratitude.

但即使我们无法获得这一点，我们也可以检查我们内心的哪些因素有助于激发代理和感恩之情。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

We can bring any issue of self to those two pillars and the 10 cupboards within them.

我们可以将任何自我问题带到这两根柱子和其中的十个柜子上。

Any issue of self.

任何自身问题。

Why?

为什么？

Because that's what it is, right?

因为事情就是这样，对吧？

In the sense that it is the us.

从某种意义上说，它就是我们。

What's inside of me.

我的内心是什么。

I have an unconscious mind.

我有一个无意识的头脑。

I have a conscious mind.

我有一个清醒的头脑。

I have a defensive structure.

我有一个防御结构。

I have a character structure.

我有一个角色结构。

I have a self.

我有一个自我。

That's what it is, right?

就是这样，对吧？

And all the functions that you mentioned, they're all going on within that structure of self.

你提到的所有功能，它们都在自我的结构中进行。

They're manifesting themselves.

他们正在表现自己。

That's what it is when we're being, right, in the active way of the verb being.

这就是当我们以动词being的主动方式存在时的情况。

That's what it is, which is why we can bring to it any issue of self, even though of course there's tremendous complexity there.

事情就是这样，这就是为什么我们可以提出任何关于自我的问题，尽管其中当然存在着巨大的复杂性。

The million things that go on in a second underneath the surface in the unconscious mind and our defensive structures and how to see them.

在潜意识和我们的防御结构的表面之下，一秒钟内发生的数百万件事以及如何看待它们。

But we're human beings.

但我们是人类。

We're complicated, right?

我们很复杂，对吧？

That's okay, because we have methods of understanding, we have methods of inquiry, and we can use those methods to make things better.

没关系，因为我们有理解的方法，我们有探究的方法，我们可以利用这些方法让事情变得更好。

And that's how we make the geyser as strong as it can be, where maybe some of the water is running countercurrent.

这就是我们如何使间歇泉尽可能强大，其中可能有一些水是逆流的。

Okay, well, let's try and have things go all in the same direction, but we don't need things to be perfect for the geyser to spring up and the agency and gratitude to then be uplifted upon it.

好吧，好吧，让我们尝试让一切都朝着同一个方向发展，但我们不需要一切都完美，才能让间歇泉喷涌而出，也不需要让间歇泉产生动力和感激之情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So everybody has one of these maps, as I understand it.

据我了解，每个人都有一张这样的地图。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And therefore, any time we're talking about relationships, romantic relationships or otherwise, we're talking about the intersection or overlap of those maps in some way.

因此，每当我们谈论关系、浪漫关系或其他关系时，我们都是在以某种方式谈论这些地图的交叉或重叠。

Maybe even the synergy and the outgrowth of those maps becomes its own map.

也许甚至这些地图的协同作用和产物也会成为自己的地图。

I think we'll get to this a little bit later.

我想我们稍后会讨论这个问题。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

When I and most people hear the word relationships, in particular romantic relationships, I make a couple of automatic assumptions.

当我和大多数人听到关系这个词，特别是浪漫关系时，我会自动做出一些假设。

First of all, I have to assume that people are either in a relationship or out of a relationship.

首先，我必须假设人们要么处于恋爱关系中，要么处于恋爱关系之外。

There's probably a third category out there of plurals and other things, but we'll keep it relatively simple.

可能还有第三类复数和其他东西，但我们会保持它相对简单。

And most people, I assume, when they search for or enter or entered a relationship, they thought about whether or not they had resonance with the person, whether or not there was an intellectual or mutual interest resonance or a physical resonance, maybe something about family history, common goals, et cetera.

我认为，大多数人在寻找或进入一段关系时，会考虑自己是否与这个人产生共鸣，是否存在智力或共同利益的共鸣或身体上的共鸣，也许是关于家族史、共同目标等等。

That's typically what people think about.

这通常是人们的想法。

And then perhaps if people have a bit more of a psychological understanding or they're reading some pop psychology books these days, some of which are pretty good, they might understand something about themselves or the other person being a bit more anxious or a bit more relaxed.

然后，也许如果人们对心理学有更多的了解，或者他们最近正在阅读一些流行心理学书籍，其中一些相当不错，他们可能会了解自己或对方更加焦虑或更加放松。

So you'll hear things like anxious attached, secure attached, things of that sort.

所以你会听到诸如焦虑型依恋、安全型依恋之类的东西。

If we could just step back from all of that for a moment and examine it through the lens of the maps as you're describing them, which exist in all of us and that really are the maps to being the best version of ourselves.

如果我们能暂时从这一切中退一步，通过你所描述的地图的镜头来审视它，这些地图存在于我们所有人之中，这确实是成为我们自己最好版本的地图。

If we look at relationships in terms of lists of where people went to school, if they went to school, are their parents married or divorced, do they have trauma that they're aware of or not aware of, these kinds of things, I guess we could call those, and here I'm borrowing language that you used earlier off camera, so I want to acknowledge that, points of compatibility.

如果我们从人们在哪里上学的列表来看待关系，他们是否上过学，他们的父母是否结婚或离婚，他们是否有意识到或不知道的创伤，这些事情，我想我们可以称之为这些，在这里我借用了你之前在镜头外使用的语言，所以我想承认这一点，兼容性点。

I think that seems like a reasonable place to start, right?

我认为这似乎是一个合理的起点，对吗？

Do people want the same thing?

人们想要同样的东西吗？

So if you could, could you talk a little bit about points of compatibility in a relationship and how those show up, for better or for worse, when you encounter people in the clinical setting?

那么，如果可以的话，您能否谈谈人际关系中的兼容性点，以及当您在临床环境中遇到人时，这些兼容性点是如何表现出来的，无论好坏？

When you see somebody who's in a relationship that's really working for them and is healthy versus if they're in a relationship where it's really unhealthy, presumably there's some knowledge about points of compatibility, but I'm guessing that it's not always intuitive.

当你看到某人处于一段真正为他们工作且健康的关系中，而他们处于一段非常不健康的关系中时，大概有一些关于兼容性点的知识，但我猜这并不总是直观的。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

I think the place we start there is acknowledging what we can know and what we can't know.

我认为我们首先要承认我们能知道什么和不能知道什么。

So this idea that there are levels of emergence where things at a lower level come together and create something that's new.

因此，这种想法认为存在不同层次的涌现，较低层次的事物聚集在一起并创造出新的东西。

We see this throughout science from subatomic particles all the way through to culture.

从亚原子粒子一直到文化，我们在整个科学领域都看到了这一点。

So someone could know theoretically lots and lots about you and lots and lots about me, but they don't know about us.

因此，理论上有人可以了解很多关于你和很多关于我的信息，但他们不了解我们。

They don't know how we interact.

他们不知道我们如何互动。

They don't know if we have shared interests, what we talk about.

他们不知道我们是否有共同的兴趣，我们谈论什么。

They don't know that.

他们不知道这一点。

No one knows that.

没有人知道这一点。

We don't know that about the combination of people.

我们不知道人的组合。

We can't know it in advance, but we often believe that we can, which then leads to a lot of false metrics of trying to figure things out.

我们无法提前知道，但我们常常相信我们可以，这导致了许多试图弄清楚事情的错误指标。

So when we're looking for compatibility, the thought of these very basic tangible things like in romance, for example, if there's someone who absolutely wants to have a family and there's someone who absolutely does not want to have a family, okay, that would be a reason for those two people to not choose one another.

因此，当我们寻找兼容性时，这些非常基本的有形事物的想法，例如在浪漫中，如果有人绝对想要有一个家庭，而有人绝对不想有一个家庭，好吧，这将是这两个人不选择彼此的原因。

So there are these factors, but the factors are all in a sense very evident and very concrete.

所以有这些因素，但是这些因素在某种意义上都是非常明显、非常具体的。

If we go beyond that, we say, okay, we can see the obvious, then what we're looking for is really a compatibility of generative drives.

如果我们超越这一点，我们会说，好吧，我们可以看到显而易见的事情，那么我们正在寻找的实际上是生成驱动器的兼容性。

And then that tells you, can these people then get along?

然后这告诉你，这些人能相处吗？

Maybe one of them is from one side of the world and the other's from the other side of the world, or one's an accountant and the other is a musician.

也许其中一个来自世界的一端，另一个来自世界的另一端，或者一个是会计师，另一个是音乐家。

And it doesn't mean that they're built not to get along, or that if they're doing the same thing, they're built to get along, or if they went to college in the same place, or they went to college versus not going to college.

这并不意味着他们生来就不适合相处，或者如果他们做同样的事情，他们生来就是为了相处，或者如果他们在同一个地方上大学，或者他们上大学与不上大学。

There's so much there that we try to build a story on, and then what we do is we miss the forest for the trees.

那里有太多东西，我们试图以此为基础构建一个故事，然后我们所做的就是只见树木不见森林。

And the trees, I think, are the factors that don't matter.

我认为树木是无关紧要的因素。

So again, let's think about the factors that do matter.

再次，让我们考虑一下真正重要的因素。

Person wants to have a family, other person doesn't.

一个人想要有一个家庭，另一个人则不想。

That's relevant.

这是相关的。

But the trees that mislead us might be, do they have the same level of education?

但误导我们的树木可能是，它们的受教育程度相同吗？

Do they have the same family structure growing up?

他们成长过程中的家庭结构是否相同？

Are parents still together?

父母还在一起吗？

What do they enjoy?

他们喜欢什么？

Are they creative or scientific or whatever, or creatively scientific?

它们是创造性的、科学的还是其他什么，或者是创造性的科学？

We could look at all of that, but I think then we're making a bunch of trees that mislead us.

我们可以看看所有这些，但我认为我们正在制造一堆误导我们的树。

If you say, look, do these people come at the world through how much agency and gratitude is there guiding them?

如果你说，看看，这些人来到这个世界是通过多少力量和感激之情来引导他们的？

How high is the top of that geyser?

那个间歇泉的顶部有多高？

How high is it uplifting that?

它的提升程度有多高？

How strong is the generative drive?

生成动力有多强？

If we match people upon that, then we see, oh, those people got along and those people didn't.

如果我们根据这一点来匹配人们，那么我们就会看到，哦，那些人和睦相处，而那些人相处不好。

And then, there are all the other factors like pheromones, and things that we can't understand or reflexive first impressions.

然后，还有所有其他因素，例如信息素，以及我们无法理解或反射性第一印象的东西。

So we could let things develop honoring the truth of what we can't know, that when you put two people together, you get something that's different than the sum of both people.

因此，我们可以让事情的发展尊重我们无法知道的真相，即当你把两个人放在一起时，你会得到一些不同于两个人总和的东西。

It's not an overlap of maps.

这不是地图的重叠。

It's a new map.

这是一张新地图。

And the map is informed by things that are on each individual's map.

地图是由每个人地图上的事物所决定的。

But what we're looking for are maps that don't have very significant differences around just clear concrete things.

但我们正在寻找的是在清晰的具体事物上没有显着差异的地图。

But once we get beyond that, the maps can synergize in all sorts of beautiful and unpredictable ways.

但一旦我们超越了这一点，地图就可以以各种美丽且不可预测的方式协同作用。

And if both are coming from the perspective of a generative drive that is at the forefront, great.

如果两者都是从最前沿的生成驱动力的角度出发，那就太好了。

You put those maps together and see what happens.

你把这些地图放在一起，看看会发生什么。

Maybe nothing happens.

也许什么也没有发生。

Okay, those people don't go out on a second date.

好吧，那些人不会第二次约会。

Maybe something happens, but it doesn't develop in certain ways.

也许某些事情发生了，但它并没有以某种方式发展。

Okay, those people dated, then stop dating.

好吧，那些人约会过，那就停止约会吧。

This happens all the time.

这种情况经常发生。

But we set the odds in our favor that the generative drive in each that is at the forefront means that their maps can synergize in ways that can then be beautiful and ways that can maybe bring to both people that which they want.

但我们设定了对我们有利的赔率，即每个最前沿的生成驱动力意味着他们的地图可以以美丽的方式协同作用，并且可以为双方带来他们想要的东西。

And I think there's a simplicity to that, that I think if we honor it, it can be very helpful, whether it's romance, it's friendships, of looking at what the truth of it is instead of the factors that we try and gain a false sense of security if we're using them to select upon.

我认为这很简单，我认为如果我们尊重它，它会非常有帮助，无论是浪漫，还是友谊，看看事情的真相是什么，而不是我们试图利用它们来选择的因素，以获得虚假的安全感。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You mentioned several times the generative drive, and I definitely would like to learn more about that and spend some time there in the context of relationships.

你多次提到了生成驱动力，我绝对想了解更多关于这一点，并花一些时间在关系的背景下。

But just to drill a little bit further into what we've all heard so often, and you touched upon a few of these themes, around points of compatibility, but also where sometimes we can respond to the wrong things when thinking about compatibility.

但是，为了进一步深入了解我们经常听到的内容，您谈到了其中一些主题，围绕兼容性点，但有时我们在考虑兼容性时可能会对错误的事情做出反应。

Again, we're framing this mainly in the context of hypothetical romantic relationships, but certainly it pertains to other sorts of relationships.

同样，我们主要在假设的浪漫关系的背景下构建这一点，但它当然也适用于其他类型的关系。

Things like, is one person educated with an advanced degree and is the other person also?

比如，一个人是否受过高等教育，另一个人也受过高等教育吗？

We tend to assume that people who are, are somehow a better match than people who aren't.

我们倾向于认为，在某种程度上，这样的人比不这样的人更匹配。

It's sort of an implicit assumption that's often made, not always, or that if two people really love music, that they will enjoy music together and therefore, the sum of the whole is greater than either of its parts.

这是一种经常做出的隐含假设，但并非总是如此，或者如果两个人真的热爱音乐，他们就会一起享受音乐，因此，整体的总和大于其中任何一个部分。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

And I think those things are utterly irrelevant.

我认为这些事情完全无关紧要。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Interesting.

有趣。

And I want to hear more about this because I think that if you think about, which I'm sure you don't, but like dating apps, for instance, like what's listed out there, or first or second dates, which consists of learning a little bit about somebody and what they're doing and maybe even a little bit about their history and maybe an activity, and certainly an attentional awareness to how the other person is behaving in the context of different things like a waiter or a waitress and how they're treating people and you, and then you hear about things like This is not something I'm familiar with, but oh, right.

我想听到更多关于这一点，因为我认为如果你想一想，我相信你不会，但就像约会应用程序一样，比如那里列出的内容，或者第一次或第二次约会，其中包括了解一点关于某人和他们正在做的事情，甚至可能了解一点他们的历史，也许是一项活动，当然还有注意对方在不同事物的背景下的行为，比如服务员或女服务员，以及他们如何对待人和你，然后你会听到诸如“这不是我熟悉的事情”之类的事情，但是哦，对了。

The love languages.

爱的语言。

People are like, "Oh, what's their love language?" It's like gifts or acts of physical touch or acts of service or something.

人们会说，“哦，他们的爱情语言是什么？”这就像礼物或身体接触行为或服务行为或其他什么。

I met someone recently, and she told me, "My love language is all of them."

我最近遇到了一个人，她告诉我，“我的爱情语言就是他们。”

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Which I think is the most honest answer.

我认为这是最诚实的答案。

Because sure, there's probably some weighting around what people value more or less, and in the absence of the things they value the most, it would probably feel a bit like deprivation in any relationship.

因为当然，人们对什么东西的重视程度可能会有所不同，如果没有他们最重视的东西，在任何关系中可能都会感觉有点像被剥夺。

But as I'm describing all this, I'm realizing more and more, yes, all of that matters.

但当我描述这一切时，我越来越意识到，是的，所有这些都很重要。

Anxious attached, secure attached, love languages, et cetera.

焦虑型依恋、安全型依恋、爱的语言等等。

But it really doesn't get to the heart of the matter.

但这确实没有触及问题的核心。

It really doesn't get to this, as you're describing it, this generative drive-

正如你所描述的，它确实没有达到这个目的，这种生成驱动力-

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

in individuals and whether or not those match up well along the points of compatibility-

在个人中，以及这些人在兼容性方面是否匹配得很好——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

with the other person's generative drive.

与他人的生成动力。

And I haven't run a controlled study for this, but the best evidence I have is that there fortunately are many people out there who are in happy, healthy relationships.

我还没有为此进行对照研究，但我拥有的最好证据是，幸运的是，有很多人拥有幸福、健康的人际关系。

But there are many, many, many people who are not, either because they can't find them, or they're in them and they're not healthy, or they're not happy, et cetera.

但有很多很多人却没有，要么是因为他们找不到它们，要么是因为它们在其中但他们不健康，或者他们不快乐，等等。

So if you could elaborate a bit more on the generative drive, again reminding us what the nature of that is.

所以，如果你能详细阐述一下生成驱动力，再次提醒我们它的本质是什么。

We cover this a bit in episodes one and two, but what the nature of that is and some different ways that that's expressed and how that shows up in healthy relationships.

我们在第一集和第二集中对此进行了一些介绍，但它的本质是什么，表达的一些不同方式以及它如何在健康的关系中表现出来。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yeah.

是的。

I think we really disprove the idea that some of these factors that I think are superficial in the context of whether people are going to be compatible.

我认为我们确实反驳了这样的观点，即我认为其中一些因素对于人们是否会兼容而言是肤浅的。

They're not superficial things, but they're not germane.

它们不是肤浅的东西，但也没有密切的关系。

So let's say you think about music.

假设您想到音乐。

And say two people are contemplating romance.

并说两个人正在考虑浪漫。

And they both really like music.

他们都非常喜欢音乐。

Well, that could go very, very well.

嗯，事情可能会非常非常顺利。

Let's say they both have a strong generative drive.

假设他们都有很强的生成动力。

Those pillars are pretty healthy, and the geyser of the agency and gratitude is riding upon it, and they can find peace in themselves.

这些支柱非常健康，机构和感恩的间歇泉正骑在上面，他们可以找到内心的平静。

They're strongly generative.

他们的生成能力很强。

Then they could become interested in the music the other person likes.

然后他们就会对其他人喜欢的音乐产生兴趣。

There's not going to be a complete overlap, even if people generally like the same thing.

即使人们普遍喜欢相同的事物，也不会出现完全重叠的情况。

But let's say they like different things, like just liking music or even liking the same music, there's still difference.

但如果说他们喜欢的东西不同，比如只是喜欢音乐，甚至喜欢同样的音乐，那还是有区别的。

So the person has to go beyond themselves and say, "Okay, I'm interested in what you think even about the music we both like.

所以这个人必须超越自己并说：“好吧，我对你的想法感兴趣，甚至对我们都喜欢的音乐有什么看法。

What factors do you like?" There are places of learning and of growth for both, and you could see how both liking music, whether it's the same or different music, that sounds great.

你喜欢什么因素？”两人都有学习和成长的地方，你可以看到两人都喜欢音乐，无论是相同的音乐还是不同的音乐，听起来都很棒。

But you could also see how that could not be great.

但你也可以看出这并不是什么好事。

If the generative drive is too low and the aggression drive is too high, then I'm going to think, "I like music.

如果生成内驱力太低而攻击内驱力太高，那么我会想：“我喜欢音乐。

My music's better than yours." Or people then start, they'll fragment, even though they have the same interest.

我的音乐比你的好。”或者人们开始后，即使他们有相同的兴趣，他们也会分裂。

Or if the pleasure drive is too high, then they think, "I want to listen to my music, not yours.

或者，如果快乐驱动力太高，他们就会想：“我想听我的音乐，而不是你的。

I'm familiar with it." Instead of, "Hey, I'm interested in that music because you're interested in it, and I'm interested in you." Which leads us to the second part.

我很熟悉它。”而不是，“嘿，我对那种音乐感兴趣，因为你对它感兴趣，我对你也感兴趣。”这将我们引向第二部分。

Let's say you have someone who really has no interest in music and someone who does.

假设有人对音乐确实不感兴趣，有人则对音乐感兴趣。

Well, there can be an openness of saying, "If I'm interested in this person, and this person is really interested in music, well, I have some interest in it.

好吧，可以坦率地说：“如果我对这个人感兴趣，并且这个人真的对音乐感兴趣，那么，我对此也有一些兴趣。

I want to learn something about it.

我想了解一些相关知识。

I want to experience some of it with the other person." And let's say that person then finds, "Hey, that's not my thing, it's not the thing we connect on," then why would that be the end of the world?

我想和另一个人一起体验一些。”假设那个人然后发现，“嘿，那不是我的事，这不是我们联系的东西”，那么为什么那会是世界末日呢？

One person goes to concerts, the other doesn't.

一个人去听音乐会，另一个人不去。

So we try and find these points of commonality because I think we get over-reductionist, and then we think, "Oh, here's a bunch of factors that we will identify." And what they do is they obscure us from the primary factor, which is the generative drive, which of course will then induce open-mindedness, mentalization.

因此，我们尝试找到这些共同点，因为我认为我们变得过度还原论，然后我们想，“哦，这是我们将识别的一系列因素。”它们所做的就是让我们看不到主要因素，即生成驱动力，这当然会导致思想开放、心智化。

If I don't like music and you do, instead of saying, "What does he like music for?

如果我不喜欢音乐而你喜欢，不要说：“他喜欢音乐做什么？

Do I need a friendship with somebody who likes music?" You think, "Hey, that's interesting.

我需要和喜欢音乐的人建立友谊吗？”你会想：“嘿，这很有趣。

If I'm interested in you as a friend, and I have respect for you and what you think, then why would I not have some interest in what you're interested in?" So this idea of compatibility revolves around the health in each person.

如果我作为朋友对你感兴趣，并且尊重你和你的想法，那么为什么我对你感兴趣的事情不感兴趣呢？”因此，这种兼容性的想法围绕着每个人的健康。

It doesn't revolve around factors that are anything but the concrete logistical factors that would just keep two people apart.

它不围绕任何其他因素，除了会使两个人分开的具体后勤因素。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love the idea that healthy relationships center around the factors that really matter within the self.

我喜欢这样的想法：健康的关系以自我内部真正重要的因素为中心。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And in particular, the generative drive.

尤其是生成内驱力。

And I love the example of someone being able to be curious about somebody's interests, about their partner's interests, even though they might not share those, from the standpoint of agency and gratitude, because the agency component there is really key.

我喜欢这样的例子：从代理和感激的角度来看，某人能够对某人的利益、他们的合作伙伴的利益感到好奇，即使他们可能不会分享这些利益，因为那里的代理成分确实很关键。

I think that a lot of people feel as if they aren't really good at something or really knowledgeable about something, then it's not for them.

我认为很多人感觉好像他们并不真正擅长某件事或对某件事真正了解，那么这不适合他们。

Which is the opposite of having agency and gratitude because gratitude is closely tied to humility.

这与代理和感恩相反，因为感恩与谦卑密切相关。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

How could we know everything?

我们怎么可能知道一切呢？

We can be good at certain things and not others.

我们可能擅长某些事情，但不擅长其他事情。

So the way you describe it includes aspects of openness, of humility, but also the agency side, the empowerment.

所以你描述它的方式包括开放、谦逊的方面，也包括代理方面、授权。

Like, oh, if I'm going to learn more, then perhaps we could enjoy more of that together.

就像，哦，如果我想了解更多，那么也许我们可以一起享受更多。

Perhaps not.

也许不是。

I think this is what I'm sensing, and I'm also sensing that the words like-minded people has so much more to do with their generative drives and how those match up as opposed to the activities that they prefer engaging in.

我想这就是我所感受到的，而且我也感觉到“志趣相投的人”这个词与他们的生成动力以及它们如何匹配而不是他们喜欢从事的活动有很大关系。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And the sorts of foods they like or the movies they like and which Makes sense at some level, but I think it is still counterintuitive for a lot of us who just reflexively think, "Oh, they like the same things." Or maybe even they met at work because they like the same type of work.

他们喜欢的食物种类或喜欢的电影在某种程度上是有道理的，但我认为对于我们很多人来说这仍然是违反直觉的，他们只是条件反射地认为，“哦，他们喜欢同样的东西。”或者他们甚至可能是在工作中认识的，因为他们喜欢同一类型的工作。

They like to live in a certain area of the country, and therefore by proximity, they met.

他们喜欢住在这个国家的某个地区，因此由于距离近，他们相遇了。

And this raises all sorts of interesting ideas, perhaps, about the statistics of what we see.

这或许引发了关于我们所看到的统计数据的各种有趣的想法。

Like two musicians together, we therefore assume that musicians belong together.

就像两个音乐家在一起一样，我们因此认为音乐家属于在一起。

Or two scientists together.

或者两个科学家在一起。

I know loads of scientist-scientist couples or scientist-physician couples.

我认识很多科学家-科学家夫妇或科学家-医生夫妇。

But of course, the numbers are skewed because they were working in environments where it increased the probability they would interact.

但当然，这些数字是有偏差的，因为他们工作的环境增加了他们互动的可能性。

So this is actually a vote for online dating in some sense, because it breaks through all those, sometimes even geographical barriers, but certainly the traditional barriers of culture.

所以从某种意义上来说，这实际上是对在线约会的投票，因为它突破了所有这些，有时甚至是地理障碍，但肯定是传统的文化障碍。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

And if you think about, because we're talking about relationships, so I would like my relationships to last as long as possible.

如果你想一想，因为我们正在谈论人际关系，所以我希望我的关系能够尽可能长久地持续下去。

That means now we're talking about my lifespan and my health span.

这意味着现在我们正在谈论我的寿命和我的健康寿命。

That then becomes part of that discussion.

这将成为讨论的一部分。

And of course, we're very interested in lifespan and health span, and we see people do much, much better when they're interconnected in the world around them, when they're still learning new things.

当然，我们对寿命和健康寿命非常感兴趣，我们看到当人们与周围的世界相互联系时，当他们仍在学习新事物时，他们会做得更好。

We know that's true, that people often will trail off of what they're learning, whether it's music, it's literature, it's the world around us, relatively early in our lifespan.

我们知道这是事实，在我们生命的相对早期阶段，人们常常会放弃他们正在学习的东西，无论是音乐、文学还是我们周围的世界。

But the person who's interconnected, learning new things, has a much greater probability of living longer and living healthier.

但相互联系、学习新事物的人更有可能活得更长、更健康。

So what's that about?

那是关于什么的？

It's about a generative drive.

这是关于生成驱动力。

It's about, you know what?

这是关于，你知道吗？

I've learned a lot of things over the course of my life, and I'm 80 years old now, and great that there's more to learn.

我一生中学到了很多东西，现在我已经 80 岁了，很高兴还有更多东西需要学习。

And that's what you see.

这就是你所看到的。

It makes me think of a woman who's around 90 years old in my practice who, she's always learning new things.

这让我想起了一位在我诊所工作的 90 岁左右的女士，她总是在学习新事物。

She's super interested in things, and I'm always struck about how she seems so much younger.

她对事物非常感兴趣，我总是对她看起来如此年轻感到惊讶。

And that's not just a selection bias, like, "Oh, I just happen to see that in that person." She has the factors that predispose to aging in the way that's healthiest and happiest.

这不仅仅是一种选择偏见，比如“哦，我只是碰巧在那个人身上看到了这一点。”她拥有以最健康、最快乐的方式衰老的因素。

So it really comes down to the root of all of it in ourselves, in our relationships, in the quality of them over time, and how long we get to have them, really arises from a generative drive.

因此，这实际上取决于我们自己、我们的人际关系、随着时间的推移它们的质量以及我们拥有它们的时间，这一切的根源实际上都源于生成驱动力。

And that's the thing that makes us then undefended, and lets us find interest in things about other people that are different from the things in us, which also comes about naturally.

这就是让我们不设防的原因，让我们对其他人与我们不同的事物产生兴趣，这也是自然而然的。

I think it's interesting that we have this sort of bias, like you said, that musicians belong together.

我认为有趣的是我们有这种偏见，就像你说的，音乐家属于同一类。

Well, why?

嗯，为什么？

They're familiar with the same things.

他们对同样的事情很熟悉。

I guess they have the same interests, same thing with scientists.

我猜他们和科学家有相同的兴趣、相同的事情。

But then a lot of people like different foods.

但很多人喜欢不同的食物。

I love different ethnic foods.

我喜欢不同民族的食物。

Why?

为什么？

Because it's different.

因为它不同。

It's an appreciation of difference.

这是对差异的欣赏。

I don't want to eat just like I did growing up.

我不想像小时候一样吃饭。

And many people are like that.

而且很多人都是这样的。

That's an appreciation of difference, of diversity.

这是对差异和多样性的欣赏。

So sometimes we'll harness that and we'll look at it and we'll say, "Oh, that's present in us." But for whatever reason, we become very reductionist about relationships, and now we're trying to match based upon sameness.

所以有时我们会利用它，我们会看着它，然后我们会说，“哦，这就存在于我们之中。”但无论出于何种原因，我们对关系变得非常简化，现在我们试图基于相同性进行匹配。

And sameness is not the point of it.

相同并不是重点。

There are even thoughts about people then, in some ways, seeking difference.

甚至有人认为当时的人们在某些方面寻求差异。

And maybe pheromones are telling us that.

也许信息素正在告诉我们这一点。

I actually know very little about that, but I certainly know that striving for sameness doesn't make good things happen in relationships.

事实上我对此知之甚少，但我当然知道，追求相同并不会让人际关系中发生好事。

I've been doing this for over 20 years, and I don't see that the alleged factors of sameness matter.

我已经这样做了 20 多年，而且我认为所谓的相同因素并不重要。

Again, unless they're so concrete.

再说一遍，除非它们如此具体。

Like if this person is absolutely going to live in North America and that person's absolutely going to live in South America, let's not potentially put them together.

就像如果这个人绝对会住在北美，而那个人绝对会住在南美，我们就不要把他们放在一起。

But once we get away from almost that level of concreteness, let's look for something different.

但是，一旦我们摆脱了几乎这种具体程度，我们就可以寻找不同的东西。

And then, like everything else, it simplifies.

然后，就像其他事情一样，它就变得简单了。

The higher we go up the ladder, the more simple things get.

我们爬得越高，事情就越简单。

If you're looking at the pillars, structure of self, function of self, you're creating the agency and gratitude, then what are you looking for when you're looking for a partner?

如果你着眼于支柱、自我结构、自我功能，你正在创造代理和感恩，那么当你寻找合作伙伴时，你在寻找什么？

A match in generative drive.

生成驱动力的匹配。

I want mine to be strong, and I see that it's strong in this person.

我希望我的坚强，我看到这个人的坚强。

They create in a way.

他们以某种方式创造。

You know what?

你知道吗？

I do science, they grow a garden.

我做科学，他们种植花园。

We're generative together.

我们一起创造。

That could be super compatible.

这可能是超级兼容的。

Because we're looking at the one factor that really matters.

因为我们正在研究真正重要的一个因素。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, AG1.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 AG1。

AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that meets all of your foundational nutrition needs.

AG1 是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮料，可满足您所有的基本营养需求。

I started taking AG1 way back in 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring the podcast.

我早在 2012 年就开始观看 AG1，所以我很高兴他们赞助这个播客。

The reason I started taking AG1, and the reason I still take AG1 once or generally twice per day, is that it's the easiest way for me to ensure that I'm getting all of the vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and fiber that I need in my diet.

我开始服用 AG1 的原因，以及我仍然每天服用一次或一般两次 AG1 的原因是，这对我来说是确保我从饮食中获取所需的所有维生素、矿物质、益生菌和纤维的最简单方法。

Now, of course, it's essential to get proper nutrition from whole foods, but most people, including myself, find it hard to get enough servings of fruits and vegetables each day, and especially to get enough prebiotics and probiotics to ensure gut health.

当然，现在从天然食品中获取适当的营养是至关重要的，但大多数人，包括我自己，发现每天很难获得足够的水果和蔬菜，尤其是获得足够的益生元和益生菌以确保肠道健康。

As you may know, your gut contains trillions of little microbiota, the so-called gut microbiome, which establishes critical connections with other organs of your body to enhance brain health, as well as to support your immune system and other aspects that relate to mental and physical health.

您可能知道，您的肠道含有数万亿个小微生物群，即所谓的肠道微生物组，它与您身体的其他器官建立了重要的联系，以增强大脑健康，并支持您的免疫系统和与身心健康相关的其他方面。

One of the most common questions I get is, if you were to take just one supplement, which supplement would that be?

我最常见的问题之一是，如果您只服用一种补充剂，会选择哪种补充剂？

And my answer is always AG1.

我的答案始终是AG1。

Because by taking AG1, I'm able to ensure that I'm getting all of the vitamins, minerals, and probiotics that I need to enhance my mental health, physical health, and performance.

因为通过服用 AG1，我能够确保获得增强心理健康、身体健康和表现所需的所有维生素、矿物质和益生菌。

If you'd like to try AG1, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.

如果您想尝试 AG1，请访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 以获得特别优惠。

They'll give you five free travel packs, and they'll give you a year's supply of vitamin D3K2.

他们会为您提供五个免费旅行包，并为您提供一年的维生素 D3K2。

Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman to claim this special offer.

再次强调，请通过 Drinkag1.com/huberman 领取此特别优惠。

I'm realizing that most of what I and everyone else has heard about relationships is complete nonsense.

我意识到我和其他人所听到的关于人际关系的大部分内容都是无稽之谈。

I really mean that.

我真的是这个意思。

It has occurred to me before, because I've experienced both, that the phrases "absence makes the heart grow fonder" and "out of sight, out of mind" are in direct contradiction with one another.

我以前曾想到，因为我经历过这两种情况，“缺席使心变得更亲近”和“眼不见心不烦”这两个短语是相互矛盾的。

So they're both true, depends on the circumstances and who the hell knows why.

所以它们都是正确的，取决于具体情况以及谁知道为什么。

You also hear opposites attract, but they don't stay together.

你也会听到异性相吸，但他们不会在一起。

You hear the important thing is to find someone similar to you, or that there's one person that's right for you.

您听说重要的是找到一个与您相似的人，或者有一个人适合您。

These are, if we really think about it, crazy-

如果我们认真思考的话，这些都是疯狂的——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

notions.

观念。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But they drive a lot of what people think about relationships.

但它们很大程度上影响了人们对人际关系的看法。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

They drive a lot of angst.

他们引起很多焦虑。

Right.

正确的。

They drive angst.

他们会引起焦虑。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

They drive bad choices.

他们做出了错误的选择。

They drive situations that then create a sense of guilt and shame and inadequacy.

他们所引发的情况会产生内疚感、羞耻感和无能感。

We mislead ourselves by not going to the basics of what is actually true.

我们因为不了解真实的基础知识而误导了自己。

I look at myself, make myself as healthy as I can be.

我审视自己，让自己尽可能健康。

Because if I'm healthy, I'll recognize a lack of health in the other.

因为如果我很健康，我就会认识到对方的健康状况不佳。

So it also protects us against bad relationships, and then if I'm going to make myself healthy, which we're describing how that looks, wouldn't I want someone who also wants to make themselves healthy?

因此，它还可以保护我们免受不良关系的影响，然后，如果我要让自己变得健康（我们正在描述这看起来如何），我难道不想要一个也想让自己保持健康的人吗？

Or at least if we're going to ally, let's ally around making both of ourselves healthier.

或者至少，如果我们要团结起来，那就让我们团结起来，让我们双方都更健康。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

And we're going to go deeper into how to look into the map of self and how that relates to relationship, certainly more as we go along this discussion.

我们将更深入地探讨如何审视自我地图以及它与关系的关系，当然，随着我们进行讨论，我们会更深入地探讨这一点。

You've mentioned several times, however, about generative drive, and that it really is the definition of like-minded in some sense.

然而，您多次提到过生成驱动力，从某种意义上说，它确实是志同道合的定义。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And you also mentioned aggressive drives and pleasure drives, themes that we touched on again in episodes one and two, but listening to those episodes is certainly not necessary to digest what we're talking about today.

您还提到了攻击性驾驶和快乐驾驶，这些主题我们在第一集和第二集中再次提到，但听这些剧集当然没有必要消化我们今天谈论的内容。

Could you go a little bit deeper into the generative drive?

您能更深入地探讨一下生成内驱力吗？

Flesh out for us what that is.

为我们充实说明那是什么。

I think generative, I think generator, I think energy.

我认为是生成性的，我认为是发电机，我认为是能源。

I hear aggression or aggressive drive, as I think most people do, friction, maybe even conflict, maybe physical conflict, maybe verbal conflict, but I know it's some of that perhaps, but a whole lot more.

我听到攻击性或攻击性驱动力，就像我认为大多数人所做的那样，摩擦，甚至可能是冲突，可能是身体冲突，可能是言语冲突，但我知道这可能是其中的一些，但还有更多。

And then pleasure drive.

然后快乐驾驶。

And pleasure, some people think bliss, some people think delight, some people probably have all sorts of specific things they think of with respect to pleasure.

至于快乐，有些人认为是极乐，有些人认为是快乐，有些人可能有各种关于快乐的具体想法。

So if you could just flesh those out for us a little bit more, because I think those are going to serve as cornerstones of today's-

所以，如果你能为我们进一步充实这些内容，因为我认为这些将成为今天的基石——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

discussion.

讨论。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Sure.

当然。

So drives, in this case, the generative drive, sort of exist within us.

因此，驱动力，在这种情况下，即生成驱动力，存在于我们体内。

And what they do is they're defining potential.

他们所做的就是定义潜力。

So right now, one could argue if we just pause for a couple of seconds, we're not doing anything generative in those seconds.

所以现在，有人可能会说，如果我们只是暂停几秒钟，那么我们在那几秒钟内没有做任何生成性的事情。

But then we resume doing something that we believe is generative.

但随后我们会继续做一些我们认为具有创造性的事情。

So at the time we're pausing, that's when we can look at that as a drive w-within us to make new learning.

因此，当我们暂停时，我们可以将其视为我们内部进行新学习的动力。

To understand things we didn't understand before, to spread a sense of goodness.

了解我们以前不了解的事情，传播善良的感觉。

So it resides in us in a way that is determined by a whole bunch of different factors.

因此，它以一种由一大堆不同因素决定的方式存在于我们体内。

Like everything else that's determined within us, there's a nature and a nurture component.

就像我们内心决定的其他一切一样，有先天和后天的成分。

So some aspect of it are what are the genetics that came down to us, what are formative experiences?

那么它的某些方面是遗传给我们的遗传因素是什么，什么是形成性经历？

But we can go in and alter that.

但我们可以介入并改变这一点。

So if we see the drive as a set of potentials, like in that moment we pause, there's a set of potentials within us, like potential of where we can take our thoughts, our actions, our reflections, our decisions.

因此，如果我们将驱动力视为一组潜力，就像在我们停下来的那一刻一样，我们体内就有一组潜力，比如我们可以采取我们的思想、我们的行动、我们的反思和我们的决定的潜力。

That's the drive within us, and it exists within us in a way that we could localize now.

这就是我们内心的驱动力，它以一种我们现在可以定位的方式存在于我们体内。

If we think enough about, okay, how much of a generative drive is there in a person?

如果我们充分思考一下，一个人到底有多少生成动力？

How much is that person looking to make a better life for themselves or a better world around them, and how do they feel about themselves and their ability to do that?

这个人在多大程度上希望为自己创造更好的生活或让周围的世界变得更美好？他们对自己以及自己实现这一目标的能力有何看法？

How generative are they, or how shut down or demoralized or envious?

他们的创造力如何，或者如何封闭、士气低落或嫉妒？

So we can, in a sense, localize that.

因此，从某种意义上说，我们可以将其本地化。

And again, the localization has these genetic and nurture components to it, but we can then go and influence that.

再说一遍，本地化具有这些遗传和培育的成分，但我们可以去影响它。

And that's the importance.

这就是重要性。

If the drive is a set of potentials, a set of possibilities, then that drive is one and the same, pervaded with however we want to describe that, with the agency and gratitude.

如果驱动力是一组潜力、一组可能性，那么这种驱动力就是同一个，无论我们想如何描述它，都充满了代理和感激之情。

Because the agency and gratitude is sort of the operative form of that.

因为代理和感恩是其运作形式。

That's the verb.

那是动词。

It's the drive actually driving something.

这是实际驱动某物的驱动器。

So if you have a strong generative drive, then agency and gratitude are leading.

因此，如果你有强大的生成动力，那么代理和感恩就会发挥主导作用。

The decisions, the reflections are coming through that.

决定、反思都是通过这个产生的。

The aggression within us or, again, that's the historical word, but so we can say aggression, assertion, proactiveness.

我们内心的侵略性，或者，再次，这是历史词，但我们可以说侵略性，断言，主动性。

All of this inside of us, and our drive for pleasure, for gratification.

所有这一切都在我们内心，以及我们对快乐、满足的渴望。

That all is then, it's in us, but it's subserving the generative drive, meaning the generative drive, that set of potentials and possibilities is dominant.

那么，一切就在我们体内，但它正在维护生成驱动力，这意味着生成驱动力，即一组潜力和可能性占主导地位。

Which of course makes sense with agency and gratitude, those active verbs being what is most active.

这当然对于代理和感激来说是有意义的，这些主动动词是最活跃的。

And then we're also going to feel at times, and hopefully at a lot of times, that set of peacefulness, that sense of contentment, the sense of delight.

然后我们有时也会感受到，希望是很多时候，那种平静、满足感、喜悦感。

What you're describing when you're doing the podcast and you're in it and all these good things are happening to you.

当你做播客时你所描述的，你在其中，所有这些美好的事情都发生在你身上。

There's a strong generative drive in you.

你身上有很强的生成动力。

That set of potentials are being actualized through the verbs of agency and gratitude.

这组潜力正在通过代理和感恩动词得以实现。

Like you're doing it all right then, and as you're doing it, you have a sense of peace and contentment as you're enacting all of it.

就像你当时做得很好一样，当你在做的时候，当你执行这一切时，你会有一种平静和满足的感觉。

And then that makes you healthier.

然后这会让你更健康。

It reinforces the generative drive.

它增强了生成动力。

It protects you against the next sling or arrow of outrageous fortune that will come your way.

它可以保护你免受下一次巨额财富的攻击。

You become more self-knowledgeable.

你变得更加有自知之明。

You become stronger.

你变得更强。

And ultimately, that's what we're Looking for.

最终，这就是我们正在寻找的。

That's the state of goodness.

这就是善良的状态。

And I believe that if you look historically, what is it that we're seeking?

我相信，如果你回顾历史，我们正在寻找什么？

We can put so many words to it, and we're choosing to put these words to it.

我们可以用很多词来表达它，而我们选择用这些词来表达它。

I think that this is the structure because I think the science, the history, the clinical experience, the phenomenology, I think it all tells us this.

我认为这就是结构，因为我认为科学、历史、临床经验、现象学，我认为它们都告诉我们这一点。

We can put different words to it, but what we're looking at when we're looking at truth and how to get to the happiness, quote-unquote, that people have sought through the ages, I think we know enough now.

我们可以用不同的词来形容它，但当我们审视真理时，我们所关注的是什么，以及如何获得人们多年来所追求的幸福，我想我们现在已经知道得足够多了。

We've learned enough that we can say, "Oh, this is what it looks like." And it fits the arbiter of all truth, which is as you get further up the hierarchy, it gets simpler.

我们已经学到了足够多的知识，可以说：“哦，这就是它的样子。”它符合所有真理的仲裁者，即当你在层次结构中越往上走时，事情就会变得更简单。

That's true about humans.

对于人类来说也是如此。

What's going on in my unconscious is very, very complicated, right?

我的潜意识里发生的事情非常非常复杂，对吗？

But if that's summing to, as we get higher up to, I'm approaching the world with a lot of agency and gratitude, that's a lot simpler, and that's what can be common among us.

但如果这总结为，随着我们的进步，我以大量的代理和感激之情来接近世界，那就简单多了，这就是我们之间的共同点。

Which is why if my pillars are very different from your pillars, and what we've struggled against each is very different, and what we may still have to work against is very different.

这就是为什么如果我的支柱与你们的支柱非常不同，我们为每个支柱所做的斗争也非常不同，而且我们可能仍然需要反对的东西也非常不同。

Well, we can be extremely compatible as friends because are we working on ourselves?

嗯，作为朋友，我们可以非常兼容，因为我们是在为自己努力吗？

Are we fostering the generative drive so we're coming at the world in that way?

我们是否正在培养生成动力，以便我们以这种方式来到世界？

And agency and gratitude, that's the similarity between us that matters.

代理和感恩，这是我们之间最重要的相似之处。

And ultimately, we're looking at the potential, that every moment we're building the potential in us for what comes at the next moment, which is why we're describing the overlap, the point of commonality that really matters.

最终，我们正在寻找潜力，每一刻我们都在为下一刻的发展挖掘潜力，这就是为什么我们要描述重叠，即真正重要的共同点。

We're putting a label to it.

我们正在给它贴上标签。

We're saying it's the generative drive.

我们说这是生成驱动力。

But it is also that, okay, we both cometh the world through agency and gratitude, if two people are assessing compatibility.

但如果两个人正在评估兼容性，那么我们都是通过代理和感激来到这个世界的。

But if we're looking at something to nest that under, and what seems most logical is the set of potentials within us that we're building and altering each moment, and then as I alter it in this moment, it's altered, and then affects my next moment.

但如果我们正在寻找某种东西来嵌套它，那么似乎最合乎逻辑的是我们内在的一组潜力，我们在每个时刻都在构建和改变它，然后当我在这一刻改变它时，它就会改变，然后影响我的下一刻。

If I do something that's just kind of thoughtless to somebody because I'm in a bad mood, then what am I doing?

如果我因为心情不好而做了一些对某人来说有点轻率的事情，那么我在做什么？

I'm projecting out my aggression.

我正在投射我的攻击性。

I'm doing something that basically makes me less than.

我正在做的事情基本上让我无法做到。

And then I'm going to feel less in the next moment, whether that moment is about me or is about someone else.

然后，下一刻我的感觉就会减少，无论那一刻是关于我还是关于别人。

The drives are the potentials in us, but we are actively working on them, determining them, changing them each moment.

驱动力是我们内在的潜力，但我们正在积极地研究它们，确定它们，每时每刻都在改变它们。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm well on board the idea that the typical pairings, let's call them the idiosyncratic pairings of musician with musician in many cases, but sometimes very verbal person with quieter person, introvert with extrovert or introvert with introvert, that all of that takes backseat or perhaps even back backseat, perhaps it even is out of the vehicle compared to the critical importance of generative drive.

我很同意这种典型的配对，让我们在很多情况下称之为音乐家与音乐家的特殊配对，但有时非常健谈的人与安静的人，内向的人与外向的人或内向的人与内向的人，所有这些都处于次要地位，甚至可能是次要地位，与生成驱动力的至关重要性相比，它甚至可能超出了车辆范围。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

When we think about generative drives in individuals, you beautifully described what a generative drive is and how it shows up in individuals.

当我们思考个人的生成内驱力时，您完美地描述了生成内驱力是什么以及它如何在个人中表现出来。

When thinking about generative drives in romantic relationships, however, because generative drive can be expressed to varying degrees, does one often see that, or do you think that a matching of levels of generative drives is what fosters the best relationships?

然而，当思考浪漫关系中的生成内驱力时，由于生成内驱力可以在不同程度上表达，人们是否经常看到这一点，或者您是否认为生成内驱力水平的匹配才能培养最好的关系？

In other words, let's say somebody has a pretty high pleasure drive, but not a very strong aggressive, also called proactiveness drive.

换句话说，假设某人有相当高的快乐内驱力，但攻击性不是很强，也称为主动性内驱力。

And so maybe they watch a lot of Netflix, like a lot of Netflix.

所以也许他们看了很多 Netflix，就像很多 Netflix 一样。

But they're not even the sort of person that's really excited about the shows and telling you about them, because there's a version of watching a lot of Netflix where the person is really interested in learning and in knowing, maybe even they're thinking about writing something.

但他们甚至不是那种对这些节目真正感兴趣并告诉你有关它们的人，因为有一个观看大量 Netflix 节目的人真正对学习和了解感兴趣，甚至可能正在考虑写一些东西。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Poetry or book, or they're bringing some of that to their life.

诗歌或书籍，或者他们将其中的一些带入生活。

I mention it that way because watching Netflix isn't bad per se.

我这样提到是因为观看 Netflix 本身并不坏。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's not anti-generative.

它不是反生成的。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Is it an escape or is it generative?

这是一种逃避还是一种生成？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Is the person thinking about what they're going to do?

这个人是否正在考虑他们要做什么？

They're going to write that book, or are they just trying to-

他们要写那本书，或者他们只是想——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

...

...

numb out and at the end of five hours in front of the television, they don't know what those five hours were.

麻木了，在电视机前呆了五个小时后，他们不知道这五个小时是什么。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

There's no intrinsic value judgment based upon a lot of things that we make value judgments about.

我们做出价值判断时，并没有基于很多事物的内在价值判断。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

You have to look at who is the person, what is the context, are they being generative or not?

你必须看看这个人是谁，背景是什么，他们是否具有创造性？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Some of the movies and shows that I've watched in relationships became the points of connection around, at least to me, tremendously interesting discussions on hikes that we took the next day and reflections on our own relationship and work and life.

我在人际关系中看过的一些电影和节目成为了联系点，至少对我来说，我们对第二天的徒步旅行进行了非常有趣的讨论，并对我们自己的关系、工作和生活进行了反思。

And so I'm so glad that you point out that there's nothing intrinsically valuable or invaluable about something like Netflix, or even intrinsically passive about doing-

所以我很高兴你指出像 Netflix 这样的东西没有任何本质上的价值或无价之宝，甚至本质上被动地做-

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

something like sitting around or even reading books for that matter.

比如坐下来甚至读书。

There's a passive version of reading great books also.

阅读好书也有一种被动的方式。

People forget that.

人们忘记了这一点。

It's hard to read a great book and not learn something.

读一本好书而不学到一些东西是很难的。

I guess that's why they're called great books.

我想这就是为什么它们被称为好书的原因。

But there is a version of that, and I know many people who-

但有一个版本，我认识很多人——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Some people want to possess the book.

有些人想拥有这本书。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

I read the book and I'm going to check it off.

我读了这本书，我要去核对一下。

I don't know what was in it.

我不知道里面装的是什么。

Like, people do that.

就像，人们这样做。

That is not generative.

那不是生成性的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So should we consider matching of level or expression of generative drives as perhaps what we are all seeking in seeking relationship?

那么，我们是否应该考虑将生成驱动力的水平或表达的匹配视为我们在寻求关系时所寻求的？

And do you think that people tend to naturally pair up with people that have a similar level of generative drive?

您是否认为人们会自然而然地与具有相似生成动力水平的人配对？

Or if they don't, do you think it leads to problems?

或者如果他们不这样做，你认为这会导致问题吗？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

Yeah, I think that by and large people don't, that it's not the thing that we're thinking about and looking for in ourselves or others, and I absolutely believe that it makes problems.

是的，我认为总的来说，人们不这么认为，这不是我们在自己或他人身上思考和寻找的东西，我绝对相信这会带来问题。

And let's take a look-

让我们看一下——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

To not look.

不看。

It makes problems to not look.

不看就会产生问题。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

It makes sense.

这是有道理的。

The fact that we're not basing it upon generative drive does indeed, I think, make many and in fact countless problems.

我认为，我们没有将其建立在生成驱动力的基础上，这一事实确实造成了许多甚至无数的问题。

And I would take as an example, think about the idea of a trauma bond.

我会举个例子，考虑一下创伤纽带的想法。

A trauma bond is not a bad thing.

创伤纽带并不是一件坏事。

That sounds like a strong statement because the way that I hear trauma bond used is it's a bad thing.

这听起来像是一个强有力的声明，因为我听到创伤债券的使用方式是这是一件坏事。

But it doesn't have to be.

但事实并非如此。

So let's take a look at it.

那么让我们来看看吧。

Imagine that you have what people call a trauma bond.

想象一下，你有人们所说的创伤纽带。

You have two people who, we'll make up a situation.

你有两个人，我们会弥补一个情况。

They're functioning in the world around them, but they each have had some very significant trauma that is creating issues in them.

他们在周围的世界中运作，但他们每个人都经历过一些非常严重的创伤，这些创伤给他们带来了问题。

So let's say they're avoidance issues.

所以我们可以说它们是回避问题。

Person doesn't feel safe or comfortable in the world around them.

人们在周围的世界中感到不安全或不舒服。

They get invited to places that they'd like to go, but they don't go.

他们被邀请去他们想去的地方，但他们没有去。

They want to go to the museum and see something really new and cool there, but there might be a crowd.

他们想去博物馆，看看那里真正新奇、酷炫的东西，但那里可能会有很多人。

This happens.

会发生这种情况。

And let's say you have two people who both have this in them.

假设有两个人都有这种情况。

It could be because the trauma is similar.

可能是因为创伤相似。

The trauma could be night and day.

创伤可能是白天和黑夜。

But they each have this in them.

但他们每个人都有这个。

They could bond around that trauma in a way that worsens the trauma.

他们可能会以一种加剧创伤的方式与创伤建立联系。

That's why people think negatively of a trauma bond.

这就是为什么人们对创伤纽带持负面看法。

So if the case is that the trauma bond is not a good thing for these two people, you say, why is that?

所以，如果创伤纽带对这两个人来说不是一件好事，你会说，为什么呢？

It's not because both of them have had trauma and both of them are impacted by trauma, and both of them are impacted by trauma in similar ways.

这并不是因为他们都曾遭受过创伤，并且都受到创伤的影响，而且他们都以类似的方式受到创伤的影响。

It's not that.

不是那样的。

It's that the drives are not in a healthy place, and the gratification of the generative drive and the pleasure drives are not high enough.

而是内驱力不健康，生成内驱力和快乐内驱力的满足感不够高。

So let's imagine the generative drive could be relatively low in each of these people, in one or the other.

因此，让我们想象一下，这些人中的每一个人的生成动力可能相对较低，无论是其中一个还是另一个。

Or they could have a naturally high drive that's being thwarted.

或者他们天生的高进取心可能会受到阻碍。

So there's something that's out of balance, where the drive is, the ability to express the drive.

因此，有一些东西失去了平衡，即驱动力所在，表达驱动力的能力。

Is there enough agency?

有足够的代理机构吗？

If there's not, let's say one person is really, really shut down.

如果没有，就说一个人真的非常非常封闭。

That person can't stand their job.

那个人无法忍受他们的工作。

Okay, something is shutting that person down.

好吧，有些东西正在阻止那个人。

The generative drive wishes greater expression.

生成内驱力希望有更大的表达。

They go back and look at themselves.

他们回去看看自己。

You can bring that into line.

你可以将其纳入其中。

But something is out of balance at the time.

但当时有些东西不平衡。

The pleasure drive may be low or it may be high, but it may not be gratified.

快乐驱力可能低也可能高，但可能并不令人满意。

It may be that that person loves museums and wants to go to the museum, but can't find that gratification.

可能那个人喜欢博物馆，想去博物馆，但却找不到那种满足感。

That's a possibility.

这是有可能的。

The aggression or assertion drive would be on the low end.

攻击性或主张性的驱动力处于低端。

But it could be higher.

但它可能会更高。

Maybe if that person felt safer, that drive within them has a lot of latitude in it, and maybe it could move higher.

也许如果那个人感觉更安全，他们内心的动力就有很大的自由度，也许它可以走得更高。

But something is out of balance in the drives and in their expression.

但在驱动力和表达上有些东西失去了平衡。

That's the problem.

这就是问题所在。

Because let's look at the other side where a trauma bond is a great thing.

因为让我们看看另一面，创伤纽带是一件很棒的事情。

So each of the people in the example has trauma, and they recognize it in themselves, and they understand how it makes things harder for them.

因此，这个例子中的每个人都遭受过创伤，他们自己也认识到这一点，并且他们理解这如何让他们的事情变得更加困难。

And then they're communicating about how it makes it hard in the other.

然后他们会交流这如何让对方感到困难。

So maybe there's a lot of overlap in social avoidance and sense of vulnerability, but maybe there are things that are different in one person versus the other.

因此，也许社交回避和脆弱感有很多重叠之处，但也许一个人与另一个人之间有些东西是不同的。

So then they can come together and say, "Look, what's the goal of life?

然后他们就可以聚在一起说：“看，人生的目标是什么？

I would like to be as healthy as I can be.

我希望尽可能保持健康。

I'm working on myself.

我正在为自己努力。

You want to be as healthy as you can be.

您希望尽可能保持健康。

We want to be as healthy as we can be.

我们希望尽可能保持健康。

And if we're healthy, we also help each of us be healthy." So maybe those two people, neither of which they would ever go to the museum on their own because the trauma inside of them is at a point it hasn't been worked through, or it's at a place where they just simply feel too vulnerable.

如果我们健康，我们也会帮助我们每个人保持健康。”所以也许这两个人，他们都不会自己去博物馆，因为他们内心的创伤还没有得到解决，或者他们只是觉得太脆弱了。

But together, they can go to the museum.

但他们可以一起去博物馆。

And then the bond around trauma helps them be healthy.

然后，围绕创伤的纽带可以帮助他们保持健康。

The drives are in a better place because they're able to recognize, "Hey, there are things going on in me that I'd like to be different and better, and you recognize that too, and we can talk about it with one another." So they're in a healthier place, and then from that healthier place, they build greater health.

驱动力处于更好的位置，因为他们能够认识到，“嘿，我身上发生了一些事情，我希望与众不同，变得更好，你也认识到这一点，我们可以互相讨论。”所以他们处于一个更健康的地方，然后从那个更健康的地方，他们变得更加健康。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So much of what we hear about in terms of friction points in relationship centers around, it seems, communication or lack of communication.

我们所听到的关于关系中的摩擦点的大部分内容似乎都围绕着沟通或缺乏沟通。

And as you're describing the role of the generative drive in healthy relationship, it seems to me that it ties back in every way to agency and gratitude, and agency being such a critical element of communication.

当你描述健康关系中生成动力的作用时，在我看来，它在各个方面都与代理和感恩联系在一起，而代理是沟通的一个关键要素。

Because wherever you've identified that, okay, there's a potential problem here, people with high generative drive in these examples seem to be capable of self-inquiry, asking the other person questions that bring them closer together and to a deeper understanding of the self.

因为无论你发现哪里存在潜在的问题，在这些例子中，具有高生成动力的人似乎都有能力进行自我探究，向他人提出问题，从而使他们更加紧密地联系在一起，并更深入地了解自我。

I raise this because one thing that's often overheard or that I've overheard, I of course have siblings and friends, and I'll place this in the way that I've most typically heard it, but I'm sure it exists in other ways too, which is the conversation in my head is one where a woman is saying they're with somebody or dating somebody, and he's so clueless.

我提出这一点是因为经常无意中听到或我无意中听到的一件事，我当然有兄弟姐妹和朋友，我会以我最常听到的方式来表达这一点，但我确信它也以其他方式存在，这是我脑海中的对话，一个女人说他们和某人在一起或与某人约会，而他是如此无能。

I wish that he would just do this thing.

我希望他只做这件事。

Sometimes these are acts of chivalry, maybe it's flowers or vacations, but more often than not, it's a request or a complaint about a lack of proactiveness.

有时，这些是骑士精神的行为，也许是鲜花或假期，但更多时候，这是对缺乏主动性的请求或抱怨。

This is also what ratchets up to these very pan statements that you hear like, "Oh, there's no real men these days," or, "There are no real men left," or this kind of thing.

这也是你听到的那些非常泛泛的言论的原因，比如“哦，现在没有真正的男人了”，或者“没有真正的男人了”，或者诸如此类的事情。

You also hear it in the reverse.

你也会听到相反的声音。

You hear men making pan statements about women, and here we're doing this in the context of heterosexual pairings, but of course, it could all work just as well in homosexual-

你听到男人对女人做出泛泛的陈述，在这里我们是在异性恋配对的背景下这样做的，但当然，这在同性恋中也同样有效——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

It's all heterosexual.

都是异性恋啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Exactly.

正是如此。

It could all work in the context of homosexual pairings, too.

这一切也可以在同性恋配对的情况下发挥作用。

So you hear those sorts of things, and it sounds like ...

所以你会听到这类事情，听起来就像……

a lack of communication.

缺乏沟通。

Okay, maybe one person needs to be better at asking for their needs to be met.

好吧，也许一个人需要更好地提出自己的需求才能得到满足。

Maybe the other person needs to develop more of an awareness of what the other person needs.

也许对方需要更多地了解对方的需求。

Of course, we all seem to intrinsically wish that things would just happen for us without the need to request them or ask for them.

当然，我们似乎都本质上希望事情会自然而然地发生在我们身上，而不需要请求或要求它们。

But I'm realizing again that all of that is distracting commotion because that's not really what's going on.

但我再次意识到，所有这些都是分散注意力的骚动，因为事实并非如此。

What's really going on, it seems, is that the engine behind communication, the engine behind curiosity, a desire to learn and know and create something from that learning and knowing in the relationship.

看起来真正发生的事情是沟通背后的引擎，好奇心背后的引擎，学习和了解的愿望，并从关系中的学习和了解中创造一些东西。

The generative drive is really what's the issue, or the lack of generative drive in any of those conversations.

真正的问题是生成驱动力，或者在任何这些对话中缺乏生成驱动力。

It seems one could circle back to that and go, okay, well, someone's not asking the right questions and therefore not doing the right things because they don't either have a sense of agency or they don't have gratitude for the situation they're in, including their own ability to do that.

似乎人们可以回到这一点，好吧，好吧，有人没有提出正确的问题，因此没有做正确的事情，因为他们要么没有代理意识，要么他们对自己所处的情况没有感激之情，包括他们自己这样做的能力。

Right?

正确的？

So when you hear, people aren't showing up for the relationship, they're not showing up, or she's not showing up, or again, let's make the pan statement go in the other direction that somebody just wants a lot of attention, right?

所以当你听到，人们没有出现在这段关系中，他们没有出现，或者她没有出现，或者再次，让我们把泛声明转向另一个方向，即有人只是想要很多关注，对吗？

They just need an excess amount of attention.

他们只是需要过多的关注。

Won't let me do my own thing, but also wants me to work and be successful.

不让我做自己的事，但也希望我工作并取得成功。

Again, these are stereotypes, but all of that seems very distracting.

再说一遍，这些都是刻板印象，但所有这些似乎都很分散注意力。

However, all of it seems far simpler if we push it through this filter of generative drives and whether or not it's being expressed.

然而，如果我们将它推入生成驱动力的过滤器以及无论它是否被表达，所有这一切似乎都会简单得多。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yes.

是的。

I think maybe the best example of this, because it's so highly charged, is imagine the pleasure drive through the lens of sex and sexuality.

我认为最好的例子可能是想象通过性和性欲的镜头所带来的快感，因为它是如此充满活力。

Right?

正确的？

So imagine that people are in a pairing.

想象一下人们是成对的。

They're in a relationship.

他们有关系。

Regardless of how they got there, we're taking people who are in a relationship, and one has a sex drive, which means an interest in sex and maybe proclivities for a diversity of sexual experience.

不管他们是如何到达那里的，我们都会选择那些处于恋爱关系中的人，其中一个人有性欲，这意味着对性的兴趣，也许还有对多种性体验的倾向。

Let's say if we just for sake of this example, we put on a 1 to 10 scale, that person is a 2.

假设我们只是为了这个例子，从 1 到 10 进行评分，那么这个人就是 2。

Okay?

好吧？

Now let's say the other person in the-

现在让我们说另一个人——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

10 being the greatest.

10是最伟大的。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yeah, sorry.

是的，抱歉。

Right.

正确的。

10 being-- right.

10 是——正确的。

That person is a 2.

那个人是2号。

Now let's say the partner is an 8.

现在假设合作伙伴是 8。

Okay?

好吧？

So there's a big mismatch there.

所以这里存在很大的不匹配。

You think, how does that normally go?

你想，通常情况如何？

The 2 stays a 2, the 8 stays an 8, and things don't go well, right?

2 仍然是 2，8 仍然是 8，事情进展不顺利，对吗？

It creates friction in the relationship at a minimum.

它最大限度地减少了关系中的摩擦。

It blows the relationship apart at a maximum.

它最大限度地破坏了关系。

The person who's a 2 feels inadequate often.

2 号的人常常感到自己不够格。

It's not always, right, but this is how this often goes.

情况并不总是如此，对吧，但这就是经常发生的情况。

Person who's a 2 feels inadequate because the person who's an 8 wants either more or different, right?

2 分的人会觉得自己不够，因为 8 分的人想要更多或不同，对吗？

And the person who's a 2 doesn't.

而 2 的人则不然。

Now that person feels bad, and they may feel bad about themselves or resentful of the person with the higher sex drive.

现在这个人感觉很糟糕，他们可能对自己感觉很糟糕，或者对性欲较高的人感到怨恨。

The person on the higher level feels now resentful of the person at the lower level, or maybe they feel like there's something wrong with them because their sex drive's too high, or they have an interest that the other person doesn't have, and now they start labeling themselves.

地位较高的人现在对地位较低的人感到怨恨，或者他们觉得自己有问题，因为他们的性欲太高，或者他们有其他人没有的兴趣，现在他们开始给自己贴标签。

This happens all the time, and it doesn't change most of the time, and the problems are enormous.

这种情况一直在发生，而且大多数时候都不会改变，而且问题是巨大的。

Okay?

好的？

So let's see, how would that look with really high generative drives and therefore the ability to think about self, to think about others, and to think about the us of the situation, right?

那么让我们看看，如果具有非常高的生成驱动力，因此具有思考自我、思考他人以及思考情境中的我们的能力，那会是什么样子，对吗？

The two people together, right?

两个人在一起吧？

So they'd be able to talk about it in ways that wouldn't be faulting of the other and would acknowledge what's inside of them.

这样他们就能够以一种不会指责对方的方式谈论这件事，并承认他们内心的想法。

Like the person with the lower drive could say, "It just, that thing doesn't strike me as more interesting.

就像驱动力较低的人可能会说的那样：“只是，我觉得那件事并不更有趣。

I don't think about it more." They could talk about all of that.

我不再多想了。”他们可以谈论所有这些。

The person who wishes more or wishes different could talk about that, too, right, and could talk about what they feel inside if there's a frustration of that.

想要更多或希望不同的人也可以谈论这一点，对吧，如果对此感到沮丧，可以谈论他们内心的感受。

Just like the person with the lower sex drive could talk about how frustrating it feels to feel pressured, right?

就像性欲较低的人可以谈论感受到压力是多么令人沮丧，对吧？

So what are they developing?

那么他们正在开发什么呢？

They're mentalizing, right?

他们正在心理化，对吧？

They're thinking about each other's emotional states, and they're coming at each other through agency and gratitude.

他们会考虑彼此的情绪状态，并通过代理和感激来对待对方。

Like, "I'm so grateful for you." Remember, the example is these people are partners, and they're happy with their partnership.

就像，“我非常感谢你。”请记住，这个例子是这些人是合作伙伴，他们对他们的合作伙伴关系感到满意。

Like, "Oh my God, I'm so grateful I found you," right?

就像，“天哪，我很感激找到了你，”对吧？

They would each feel that way.

他们每个人都会有这样的感觉。

"I'm so grateful you're in my life." This happens, too, right?

“我很感激你出现在我的生命中。”这种事也会发生吧？

And then from that lens, the 2 isn't going to become an 8.

从这个角度来看，2 不会变成 8。

The 8 isn't going to become a 2, right?

8号不会变成2号吧？

But in general, in situations like this, there can be somewhere in the middle, right?

但一般来说，在这种情况下，可能会有中间的某个地方，对吗？

And let's say the 2 says, "Okay, you know what?

假设 2 说：“好吧，你知道吗？

I can get out of my comfort zone a little bit." Why don't most people try that?

我可以稍微离开自己的舒适区。”为什么大多数人不尝试一下呢？

Because they feel embarrassed.

因为他们感到尴尬。

They feel self-conscious.

他们感到不自在。

They don't want to try new things or try more.

他们不想尝试新事物或尝试更多。

People get closed down because there's such shame around sexuality.

人们因为性行为而感到羞耻，因此感到封闭。

You could take people on any spectrum of sexuality, and you will find shame, not in every person, but across whatever population we're looking at because it's so emotionally charged.

你可以把人们放在任何性取向上，你都会发现羞耻感，不是每个人都有羞耻感，而是我们所关注的任何人群都感到羞耻，因为它充满了情感。

So let's say in a loving, caring relationship, where that person feels the freedom inside, say, "You know what?

因此，让我们说，在一段充满爱、关怀的关系中，当那个人感受到内心的自由时，你可以说：“你知道吗？

Maybe I could enjoy sex a little more, a little more often, a little more." That person thinks about it like somebody who's at a 2 can then move that to a different place, a little bit more or maybe even a lot more, depending.

也许我可以多一点、多一点、多一点享受性爱。”那个人会想，就像处于 2 的人可以将其移动到不同的位置，多一点甚至多一点，具体取决于情况。

And then the person who's at the higher level, the 8 doesn't need another 8, right, in order to stay in the relationship, but something maybe more than a 2, right?

然后，处于较高级别的人，8 不需要另外的 8，对吧，为了保持这种关系，但可能不仅仅是 2，对吧？

And then let's say they come into the middle, and then the person who's an 8 realizes, like, "Look, I love you and you love me, and you out of your comfort zone, right, in order to do this, and wow, and it's more fun for both of us." So, "You know what?

然后假设他们进入中间，然后 8 分的人意识到，“看，我爱你，你也爱我，你走出了你的舒适区，对吧，为了做到这一点，哇，这对我们俩来说都更有趣。”所以，“你知道吗？

It's okay.

没关系。

My higher sex drive, I'll deal with that." That maybe just making it up like, "I would like to do it three times a week.

我的性欲更高，我会解决这个问题。”这可能只是编造出来的，比如“我想每周做三次。

We're doing it two." Okay.

我们要做两个。”好的。

You know what?

你知道吗？

That's fine.

没关系。

Both sides can live with it, but it is not threadbare.

双方都可以接受它，但它并不乏味。

It's not like, well, they can live with it.

这不像是，好吧，他们可以忍受它。

It's like, no. Number one, they can live with it.

就像，不。第一，他们可以忍受。

Number two, it's better It's better.

第二，更好了，更好了。

The two at one point was thinking, "Hey, anything more than a two is I can't do that." They just shut down.

两人同时在想：“嘿，任何超过二的事情我都做不到。”他们刚刚关闭。

The eight doesn't want anything less than an eight.

八号不想要任何低于八号的东西。

Now they're in the middle and their relationship is closer.

现在他们处于中间，关系更加亲密。

That's real.

那是真的。

That happens.

就会发生这种情况。

What is it relying upon?

它依靠什么？

It's relying upon the generative drive to have the openness, the ability to communicate.

它依靠生成动力来拥有开放性和沟通能力。

Maybe the person who's an eight, say, has a sexual proclivity they're embarrassed about.

比如说，也许八岁的人有一种令他们感到尴尬的性倾向。

That happens all the time too.

这种情况也经常发生。

But in the sense of acceptance of self and the belief in the strength of the relationship and the acceptance of the other, people can broach things.

但在接受自我、相信关系的强度和接受他人的意义上，人们可以提出问题。

Most people who feel like, "Oh, I could never broach that." It's not something bizarre or dangerous.

大多数人都会觉得，“哦，我永远不会提出这个问题。”这不是什么奇怪或危险的事情。

It's not something that in a relationship that's defined by the generative drive, the other person is likely to reject.

在由生成驱动力定义的关系中，对方不可能拒绝这种东西。

So let's define our relationships through the generative drive, and let's cultivate in self and others the most generative drive.

因此，让我们通过生成性内驱力来定义我们的关系，并在自我和他人中培养最具生成性的内驱力。

If somehow, let's say person A and person B here, because it doesn't matter who's the eight and who's the two, has cultivated more of a generative drive, then maybe that person could give more to the other before that person can give back to them.

如果不知何故，假设A和B在这里，因为谁是八个，谁是两个并不重要，已经培养了更多的生成动力，那么也许那个人可以在那个人回馈他们之前给另一个人更多。

We have these, I think, just completely nonsensical ideas about mutuality.

我认为，我们对相互关系的看法完全是荒谬的。

The idea that even in a situation that's supposed to be defined by love, and friendship is a form of love.

即使在应该由爱定义的情况下，友谊也是爱的一种形式。

So friendship, a collaborative endeavor.

所以友谊，是一种合作的努力。

They have some affection in them.

他们心里有一些感情。

Friendship can have love and often does, and let's say the love of romance, that there's supposed to be some equality.

友谊可以有爱情，而且经常如此，比方说浪漫的爱情，应该有一定的平等。

The idea that, well, if I'm going to give something, I want you to give something too.

这个想法是，好吧，如果我要给予一些东西，我希望你也给予一些东西。

It is not good if one person is always doing the giving.

如果一个人总是在布施，那就不好了。

Things are out of balance.

事情失去了平衡。

But it is very healthy to be able to say, "If I can give something and you're not in a place to give something, let me just give something to you." People don't always, or maybe don't often, depend on how we want to look at it, give to others with a sense of freedom.

但能够说“如果我可以给予一些东西而你无法给予一些东西，那就让我给你一些东西”是非常健康的。人们并不总是，或者也许不经常，取决于我们想要如何看待它，以一种自由的感觉给予他人。

And you don't owe me anything either.

而且你也不欠我什么。

Why?

为什么？

Because it comes from love.

因为它来自于爱。

It comes from the abundance, the excess of goodness in me coming through the agency that I feel, the gratitude that I feel.

它来自于我内心的丰富、过剩的善良，通过我感受到的代理，我感受到的感激之情。

And then what's more likely?

那么更有可能的是什么呢？

You're much more likely, the other person, to sort of feel like, "Hey, I can go a little more." You feel stronger.

另一个人更有可能会觉得，“嘿，我可以再多走一点。”你感觉更坚强了。

You feel empowered.

你感觉自己充满了力量。

Making someone feel worse or saying, "You know what?

让某人感觉更糟或者说：“你知道吗？

I can give you something, but you owe me something back." Even if that's tacit.

我可以给你一些东西，但你欠我一些东西。”哪怕这是心照不宣的。

I can give you this now, but you kind of know that the other person's going to end up doing the laundry for two months or something.

我现在可以给你这个，但你知道对方最终会花两个月的时间洗衣服。

It's not okay.

这不行。

Why not just give something?

为什么不直接给予一些东西呢？

You're giving goodness, and then the other person actually gets the goodness, and they're more likely to find it within themselves to then come a little out of their comfort zone, move their generative drive a little bit forward.

你给予善意，然后其他人实际上得到了善意，他们更有可能在自己内心找到善意，然后稍微走出自己的舒适区，将他们的生成动力向前推进一点。

So gifts given to others with no expectation of return are gifts of abundance.

因此，给予他人不求回报的礼物才是丰盛的礼物。

They're gifts that arise from the generative drive, and they make us more generative.

它们是源自生成动力的礼物，它们使我们更具生成能力。

Think about the opposite.

想想相反的情况。

What often happens?

经常发生什么情况？

Each person makes the other feel guilty.

每个人都会让对方感到内疚。

"Oh, this person, he wants so much." And look, there you are again.

“哎哟，这个人，想要的可真多啊。”看，你又来了。

People feel terrible about that.

人们对此感到很糟糕。

Or, "You don't want any sex or this or that." The other person feels terrible.

或者，“你不想要任何性行为或这个或那个。”另一个人感觉很糟糕。

That's why the two stays the two and the eight stays the eight.

这就是为什么二仍然是二，八仍然是八。

But it doesn't have to be that way, and it's also not that if both end up in the middle, say both are a five, that that's some compromised position that implies less.

但不一定非要这样，而且如果两者最终都处于中间，比如两者都是五，那么这并不是某种妥协的立场，意味着更少。

No, that's the compromised position that makes more.

不，这是妥协的立场，可以赚更多。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge our sponsor, Eight Sleep.

我想短暂休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商“八睡”。

Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity.

August Sleep 生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。

I've spoken many times before on this podcast and elsewhere about the fact that getting a quality night's sleep on a regular basis is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance.

我之前在这个播客和其他地方多次谈到过这样一个事实：定期获得优质的夜间睡眠是心理健康、身体健康和表现的基础。

When we're sleeping well, everything goes better, and when we are not sleeping well or enough, everything in terms of mental health, physical health, and performance gets far worse very quickly.

当我们睡眠良好时，一切都会变得更好，而当我们睡眠不好或睡眠不足时，心理健康、身体健康和表现方面的一切都会很快变得更糟。

One of the key things to getting a great night's sleep is to control the temperature of your sleeping environment, and that's because in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, you need your core body temperature to drop by about one to three degrees.

获得良好睡眠的关键之一是控制睡眠环境的温度，这是因为为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您需要将核心体温下降约一到三度。

And in order to wake up feeling refreshed, you need your core body temperature to increase by about one to three degrees.

为了醒来时感觉神清气爽，您需要将核心体温升高约一到三度。

That all becomes very easy when using an Eight Sleep mattress cover because it allows you to program the temperature of your sleeping environment at the beginning, middle, and towards the end of your night when you wake up.

当使用八睡眠床垫套时，这一切都变得非常容易，因为它允许您在晚上醒来时在开始、中间和结束时对睡眠环境的温度进行编程。

I started sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover over two years ago, and it immediately and persistently improved the quality and depth of my sleep.

两年多前，我开始睡在八睡床罩上，它立即持续地改善了我的睡眠质量和深度。

And as a consequence, I wake up feeling far more refreshed.

结果，我醒来时感觉更加神清气爽。

I have enhanced mood, focus, and alertness throughout the day.

我一整天的心情、注意力和警觉性都得到了增强。

If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, you can go to eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $150 off their Pod 3 cover.

如果您想尝试八睡眠，您可以访问八睡眠.com/huberman，在其 Pod 3 封面上最多可节省 150 美元。

Eight Sleep currently ships in the USA, Canada, UK, select countries in the EU, and Australia.

八睡眠目前在美国、加拿大、英国、欧盟部分国家和澳大利亚发货。

Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman.

再说一遍，这是八睡眠.com/huberman。

Based on my understanding of the generative drive, the aggressive, also we're calling it proactiveness drive and the pleasure drive, and the importance of the generative drive being greater than the aggressive or pleasure drives.

根据我对生成性内驱力的理解，我们也将其称为主动性内驱力和快乐性内驱力，并且生成性内驱力比攻击性内驱力或愉悦性内驱力更重要。

I can also see the potential problem of having two eights along the-

我还可以看到沿线有两个八的潜在问题-

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Oh, sure

哦，当然

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

sexual desire scale or two nines or two tens, and actually, I've observed a lot of examples of this.

性欲量表或两个九或两个十，实际上，我观察到了很多这样的例子。

For instance, if there are, let's say, two nines.

例如，假设有两个 9。

Both people, 9 out of 10 on the joy and sort of proclivity for sex, adventurous sex, et cetera.

这两个人，十分之九的人都喜欢性爱、冒险性爱等的快乐和倾向。

They're very high on the pleasure scale.

他们的快乐程度非常高。

Perhaps even so much so that they don't pay attention to, or one person doesn't pay attention to the critical need for points of compatibility to be met, like the desire to someday have a family.

也许甚至如此，以至于他们没有注意到，或者一个人没有注意到满足兼容性点的关键需求，比如有一天拥有一个家庭的愿望。

I've known couples like this.

我认识这样的情侣。

They're together for a long time.

他们在一起很长时间了。

They seem to really enjoy one another.

他们似乎真的很喜欢彼此。

I know nothing of their sex lives, but there just seems to be a very strong attachment around certain forms of pleasure that they both enjoy engaging in.

我对他们的性生活一无所知，但似乎对他们都喜欢参与的某些形式的快乐有着非常强烈的依恋。

So this could be activities or travel.

所以这可能是活动或旅行。

Here we're saying 9 out of 10 on the sex scale.

这里我们说的是性别量表中的 9 分（满分 10 分）。

But In many of those cases, there's one person saying, "But I want to have a family someday," and they're just not into that.

但在很多情况下，有人会说，“但我希望有一天能有一个家庭”，但他们只是不喜欢这样。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Or perhaps even, but he won't leave his wife.

或者甚至，但他不会离开他的妻子。

They're involved in something that feels really good.

他们参与了一些感觉非常好的事情。

They're matching along some pleasure drive, but completely overlooking the larger goals of one or both people.

他们在追求某种快乐的驱动力，但完全忽视了一个人或两个人的更大目标。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right?

对吗？

And here I point you to an instance of infidelity.

在这里我向你指出一个不忠的例子。

That's its own issues with morals, et cetera.

这是它本身的道德问题等等。

But you see this a lot, people really orienting towards what feels good and who feels good to be with.

但你经常看到这样的情况，人们确实倾向于感觉良好的事物以及感觉良好的人在一起。

And that, of course, is healthy, but that's not the entire picture.

当然，这是健康的，但这并不是全部。

So would you say that what I'm describing is an example of where the pleasure drive has overcome the generative drive?

那么你会说我所描述的是快乐驱力战胜生成驱力的一个例子吗？

Because in the case of somebody wanting a family and the other person already having one and being unwilling to leave that one, or the other person not wanting a family, that the generative drive of the person who wants a family is not being respected, or it's being undermined by this excess desire for pleasure.

因为如果一个人想要一个家庭，而另一个人已经有了一个家庭并且不愿意离开这个家庭，或者另一个人不想要一个家庭，那么想要一个家庭的人的生成动力就不会受到尊重，或者会被这种过度的快乐欲望所破坏。

They're just drawn into the moment and the-

他们只是被这一刻所吸引，然后——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

amazing weekends, and but this person's incredible, and they're charismatic.

周末很棒，但这个人太棒了，而且很有魅力。

And I can't tell you how many times I've had friends say that they admire the person they're with, but they know the relationship can't work because of all these other-

我无法告诉你有多少次我的朋友说他们钦佩与他们在一起的人，但他们知道这种关系无法维持下去，因为所有这些其他 -

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

underlying issues.

根本问题。

Right?

正确的？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

It's interesting.

这很有趣。

We both overestimate and underestimate what, say, love can do.

我们既高估又低估了爱的作用。

Right?

正确的？

People say, "Oh, love can do anything." No, if I spill that glass, love's not going to put the water back in it.

人们说：“哦，爱可以做任何事情。”不，如果我把杯子打翻了，爱不会把水放回去。

If I must live in North America and my partner must live in South America, we're not going to be okay.

如果我必须住在北美，而我的伴侣必须住在南美，我们就不行了。

So we say these things in a very wishful way.

所以我们以非常一厢情愿的方式说这些话。

Love will overcome everything.

爱会战胜一切。

It doesn't overcome that.

它并没有克服这一点。

Or maybe it does in the right circumstances.

或者也许在适当的情况下确实如此。

So think about if the generative drive is very high in both people.

所以想一想，两个人的生成动力是否都非常高。

So both people have, say, a strong need to live in a certain place, they can find a compromised position.

所以说，两个人都有强烈的需要住在某个地方，他们可以找到一个折中的位置。

Maybe they live half the year in North America and half in South America.

也许他们一年有一半时间生活在北美洲，一半时间生活在南美洲。

But why?

但为什么？

Because in that situation, the love between them, which is the generative drive in the relationship.

因为在那种情况下，他们之间的爱，才是关系中的生成动力。

So what does that mean?

那么这意味着什么呢？

The first person has to have a strong generative drive, be healthy, understand that even though I need to live in North America, does it actually mean that?

第一个人必须有强大的生成动力，身体健康，明白即使我需要生活在北美，但这实际上意味着吗？

Do I really need to live in North America?

我真的需要住在北美吗？

I have to be able to see beyond myself and what does that mean to the person I love who needs to live on the other side of the world?

我必须能够超越自我，这对于我所爱的需要生活在世界另一端的人来说意味着什么？

If the other person can do that too, then in the relationship, which is a new entity.

如果对方也能做到这一点，那么在这段关系中，这就是一个新的实体。

It emerges from one person and the other.

它从一个人和另一个人身上出现。

You can know everything about one person, everything about the other.

你可以了解一个人的一切，也可以了解另一个人的一切。

You don't know about the two of them together.

你不知道他们两个在一起的事。

So the two of them together are an us, and if that us has a strong generative drive, which it can if each person has a strong generative drive.

所以他们两个在一起就是一个我们，如果这个我们有很强的生成内驱力，那么如果每个人都有很强的生成内驱力的话也可以。

They can bring to the state of emergence of the us, the generative drive, and we're talking about a relationship, so say the love between them, and they can find a way through.

他们可以使我们进入一种涌现的状态，即生成的驱动力，我们正在谈论一种关系，所以说他们之间的爱，他们可以找到一条出路。

So the idea that love cures all things, we have to find what does that actually mean?

因此，爱可以治愈一切的想法，我们必须找出它到底意味着什么？

It doesn't mean we have a lot of pleasure together, or we like a lot of the same things.

这并不意味着我们在一起有很多快乐，或者我们喜欢很多相同的事情。

That's not what that means.

不是那个意思。

And people can very much love one another but not be aware of the limitations inside of them.

人们可以非常相爱，但却没有意识到自己内心的局限性。

Because maybe there are other things going on in them, like, say, childhood trauma.

因为也许他们身上还发生了其他事情，比如童年创伤。

They love one another, but they can't get out of their comfort zone enough.

他们彼此相爱，但又无法走出自己的舒适区。

So the point is if we make ourselves as healthy as we can be, and then two selves come together that are making themselves as healthy as they can be, then the us between them really can fit that definition of love and do anything.

所以关键是，如果我们让自己尽可能健康，然后两个自我走到一起，让自己尽可能健康，那么他们之间的我们就真的可以符合爱的定义并做任何事情。

But we have to define that in the right way, in a way that honors the truth, which again is not a higher degree of complexity.

但我们必须以正确的方式来定义它，以尊重事实的方式，这又不是更高程度的复杂性。

It's actually more simple.

其实更简单。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So you gave an example of a romantic relationship where one person has a strong sex drive and the other a weaker drive.

所以你举了一个浪漫关系的例子，其中一个人的性欲很强，另一个人的性欲较弱。

And then we talked about an example where both people have a essentially high sex drive and where that could potentially be beneficial, assuming that the generative drive is also high in both of them.

然后我们讨论了一个例子，两个人都有很高的性欲，假设他们两人的生育欲也很高，那么这可能是有益的。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And we also explored a little bit of how it can be bad for a relationship if it exceeds the generative drive.

我们还探讨了如果一段关系超过了生成内驱力，它会对人际关系产生怎样的负面影响。

What about the aggressive proactiveness drive?

积极主动的驱动力又如何呢？

How does that show up in romantic pairings?

这在浪漫的配对中是如何体现的呢？

If one person has a high proactiveness, AKA aggressive drive, and the other person does not, what does that look like, and do you see that often in your clinical practice?

如果一个人具有高度主动性，又名攻击性驱动力，而另一个人则不然，那会是什么样子，您在临床实践中是否经常看到这种情况？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Sure.

当然。

If this makes sense, maybe we look at that example of the person who's a two and the person who's an eight on the sex drive scale.

如果这是有道理的，也许我们可以看一下性欲量表上的 2 分和 8 分的人的例子。

You'd say, okay, the person who's a two who's trying to raise that has a strong generative drive.

你可能会说，好吧，那些想要抚养孩子的两岁的人有很强的生成动力。

What does that mean?

这意味着什么？

The person thinks, "You know what?

这个人想：“你知道吗？

I think I can do this.

我想我可以做到这一点。

I can set myself about this.

我可以自己解决这个问题。

I see it will make my relationship better.

我认为这会让我的关系变得更好。

I'm going to give it a try." That's the generative drive in action.

我要尝试一下。”这就是行动中的生成驱动力。

The pleasure drive, the person may look at that and say, "Look, maybe this can be more fun for me.

快乐驾驶时，这个人可能会看着它并说：“看，也许这对我来说会更有趣。

It hasn't been that fun for me.

这对我来说并不是那么有趣。

If I have a low pleasure drive, could I start enjoying this more?" And then maybe that moves up.

如果我的驾驶乐趣较低，我可以开始更多地享受这个吗？”然后也许会上升。

Or maybe I have a higher pleasure drive, but it's not been gratified because I haven't been able to be open and honest.

或者也许我有更高的快乐驱动力，但它并没有得到满足，因为我无法开放和诚实。

Let me see if I can make that better.

让我看看是否可以做得更好。

Then what's active, what the person is doing is then going to the aggressive or assertive, proactive to that drive and going to the potential in that drive and mining some of what's in it.

然后，什么是活跃的，这个人正在做的事情就是积极进取或自信，积极主动地发挥这种驱动力，挖掘这种驱动力的潜力并挖掘其中的一些东西。

Like, yeah, how am I going to do that?

就像，是的，我该怎么做？

I'm going to bring myself to bear.

我要让自己承受。

And that's not an easy thing.

这并不是一件容易的事。

It's not like that person then all of a sudden decides to be more sexual.

这不像那个人突然决定变得更加性感。

There has to be a lot of communication between the two people, a lot of discussion of what setting might be best for that, what helps the person feel understood or feel more comfortable.

两个人之间必须进行大量的沟通，进行大量的讨论，讨论什么环境最适合，什么可以帮助人们感到被理解或感觉更舒服。

There's a lot then to do there, and the person may even need to go back to the pillars.

在那里有很多事情要做，这个人甚至可能需要回到柱子那里。

Because the person may feel like, whoa I don't think I can do that.

因为这个人可能会觉得，哇哦，我认为我做不到。

Right?

正确的？

And then it is, "That's not good.

然后就是，“这不好。

I want to do that." Right?

我想这么做。”正确的？

"What is it that I can't do?" There's a realization there.

“什么是我做不到的？”那里有一个认识。

And then maybe the person who's an eight, because they're so well connected, gets it.

然后也许八分的人会明白，因为他们的人脉关系非常好。

"Okay, you can't do that.

“好吧，你不能这么做。

Let me support you," right, "in whatever way while you're figuring that out." Because they're both generative.

让我支持你，”对，“在你解决这个问题的时候，以任何方式支持你。”因为他们俩都是有生育能力的。

They want to figure that out.

他们想弄清楚这一点。

Now the-

现在-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, sorry to interrupt.

噢，抱歉打扰了。

When you say go back to the pillars, you mean go back to exploring their structure of themselves and their function of themselves-

当你说回到支柱时，你的意思是回到探索它们自身的结构和它们自身的功能——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

so that they can, for instance, get some insight into what sorts of defense mechanisms might be in place.

例如，这样他们就可以深入了解可能存在哪些类型的防御机制。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What they're paying attention to or their behaviors, like-

他们正在关注什么或他们的行为，比如——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

maybe even health-related behaviors that could be impacting their sex drive.

甚至可能影响他们性欲的健康相关行为。

But maybe even things that reside at a deeper level, the unconscious mind.

但也许还有更深层次的东西，即潜意识。

Talking to somebody till they make a connection around shame or some story that they've integrated into their thinking at a subconscious level.

与某人交谈，直到他们围绕羞耻感或一些他们在潜意识层面融入思维的故事建立联系。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

Just an example that I see a lot is avoidance, where, again, not always, but let's say the person who's the two on the sex drive scale who finds like, "I can't do it." Right?

我经常看到的一个例子是回避，同样，并不总是如此，但比方说，在性欲量表上的两个人发现“我做不到”。正确的？

"Wow, I just can't bring myself to do it," right?

“哇，我就是无法让自己这么做，”对吧？

And then they go back and they explore.

然后他们回去探索。

This happens a lot, where there's avoidance.

这种情况经常发生，人们都在回避。

And then we get curious about the avoidance.

然后我们对回避感到好奇。

Because the person's like, "There's something in me, just I don't want to do that," right?

因为这个人会说，“我身上有一些东西，只是我不想那样做，”对吗？

Okay, so there's avoidance.

好吧，所以有回避。

We identify avoidance.

我们识别回避。

We also identify that it's not healthy because the person does actually want to do that because it's good for the relationship and it could be good for them, too.

我们还发现这并不健康，因为这个人确实想这样做，因为这对人际关系有好处，也可能对他们有好处。

And then maybe we start looking at unconscious mind, right, or conscious mind, right?

然后也许我们开始研究无意识思维，对吧，或者有意识思维，对吗？

And maybe we don't find, because it's easy now if I said, "Oh, there was a major trauma that the person hasn't processed." Sometimes it's that.

也许我们找不到，因为现在很容易，如果我说：“哦，这个人还没有处理过重大创伤。”有时就是这样。

But a lot of times it's not that.

但很多时候并非如此。

Maybe that person just never learned to feel comfortable with sexuality.

也许那个人只是从未学会对性感到舒服。

Or maybe the way that they experience or are attracted to sexuality was disparaged or denigrated, right?

或者也许他们体验性或被性吸引的方式被贬低或诋毁，对吧？

Or they had some bad feeling about it because the society and the culture told them that.

或者他们对此有一些不好的预感，因为社会和文化告诉他们这一点。

Or maybe they had a couple bad experiences where they were treated in a certain way, and then it's like, okay, that person comes by that honestly.

或者也许他们有过一些不好的经历，他们受到了某种方式的对待，然后就好像，好吧，那个人是诚实的。

There's not a major trauma there.

那里没有重大创伤。

In fact, unfortunately, there's a trauma that's almost predictable from the way our society has been structured.

事实上，不幸的是，从我们社会的结构方式来看，几乎可以预见到一种创伤。

So a person can go look at that and be like, "Right.

所以一个人可以去看一下，然后说：“对。

I never learned how to do this or how to be comfortable with this," or, "You know what?

我从来没有学会如何做到这一点或如何对此感到满意，”或者，“你知道吗？

I learned that I'm not good at it," or, "I learned that no one will enjoy it with me." But that's not true.

我了解到我不擅长，”或者，“我了解到没有人会和我一起享受它。”但事实并非如此。

These are situations not in the sight of a loving relationship, right?

这些情况不属于爱情关系的范畴，对吗？

Now that person is able to bring that knowledge to bear, whether it came from the unconscious mind or the conscious mind, and then that's how you work to start shifting things.

现在，这个人能够将这些知识付诸实践，无论它来自无意识思维还是有意识思维，然后这就是你开始改变事物的方式。

Like that was then, this is now.

过去是这样，现在也是这样。

Right?

正确的？

It is not then when, say, the person, say, in high school, had a sexuality that others didn't approve of and made them feel bad.

那时，比如说，在高中的时候，这个人的性取向是别人不认可的，让他们感觉很糟糕。

Well, guess what?

嗯，你猜怎么着？

It's not then.

那时还不是。

And that's unfortunate, it's wrong, it's unjust.

这是不幸的、错误的、不公正的。

We're going to honor and validate all that that is.

我们将尊重并验证这一切。

But we're also going to look at that was then, this is now, and you get to behave differently now.

但我们也会看看当时、现在，你现在的行为方式会有所不同。

You're an adult now, and adults get to choose their relationships, and you chose a good relationship, right?

你现在已经是成年人了，成年人可以选择自己的恋爱关系，而你选择了一段好的恋爱关系，对吧？

So this is the kind of thing that can get that person to the point where they can go back up through.

所以这种事情可以让那个人回到可以回去的地步。

Now, what happens at the end of it?

现在，最后会发生什么？

The geyser is stronger.

间歇泉更强劲。

There's more agency.

还有更多的代理机构。

There's more of a sense of gratitude, right?

更多的是一种感恩之情吧？

Why?

为什么？

Because the person can attach themselves more to, "I'm so lucky to have this person," as opposed to, "Damn it, I wish that person didn't have a higher sex drive," right?

因为这个人可以更多地依附于“我很幸运能拥有这个人”，而不是“该死的，我希望那个人没有更高的性欲，”对吗？

And they feel better about themselves instead of, "What's wrong with me that I don't have a higher sex drive," right?

他们对自己感觉更好，而不是“我怎么了，我没有更高的性欲，”对吧？

Or say they wish the other person had a lower sex drive or wish they had a higher sex drive.

或者说他们希望对方性欲较低或希望自己性欲较高。

That's not grateful.

这可不是什么感激之情。

I'm grateful I am who I am and that I have any sex drive at all, and I'm grateful for this other person.

我很感激我就是我自己，我有性欲，我很感激另一个人。

Now through that change, right, they can go back and better access the assertion, the proactive drive, the aggressive drive, whatever we want to call it, because they've taken away, they've gone and worked through the barrier to it.

现在，通过这种改变，对吧，他们可以回去更好地获取断言、积极主动的驱动力、积极进取的驱动力，无论我们想怎么称呼它，因为他们已经拿走了，他们已经克服了障碍。

Then they're able to be a little more out of their comfort zone, and the other person meets them there, right?

然后他们就能够稍微离开自己的舒适区，而另一个人就会在那里与他们见面，对吗？

And they start having this healthy thing between them where the us, that is them, the love between them, gets better, right?

他们之间开始有这种健康的事情，我们，也就是他们，他们之间的爱，变得更好，对吗？

And then where do they find themselves?

然后他们发现自己在哪里？

That's how they get to the five, which is not a compromise between eight and two that satisfies neither.

这就是他们如何得到五个，这不是八个和两个都不能满足的妥协。

It is a compromise between eight and two that is way better for both and for the relationship.

这是八人和两个人之间的妥协，这对双方和双方的关系都更好。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm curious about common pairings that you observe in the clinical setting.

我对您在临床环境中观察到的常见配对很好奇。

And not to focus on the bad, but if there are common pairings that rarely lead to a good outcome, I think it's worth us learning about those, simply because they're common and they lead to a bad outcome.

不要把注意力集中在坏的方面，但如果有一些常见的配对很少会带来好的结果，我认为值得我们学习这些，仅仅因为它们很常见并且会导致坏的结果。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And a discussion of this sort could potentially help people avoid such pairings or at least recognize that they're in such pairings.

此类讨论可能会帮助人们避免这种配对，或者至少认识到他们处于这种配对中。

And I realize, of course, because of the way that we're framing things during this series, that any time we talk about a pairing, we're really talking about two maps coming together, forming a new and somewhat independent map that represents the relationship.

当然，我意识到，由于我们在本系列中构建事物的方式，任何时候我们谈论配对时，我们实际上是在谈论两张地图组合在一起，形成一个新的、某种程度上独立的地图来代表这种关系。

I have to assume that many people in the world have maps that are very healthy.

我必须假设世界上很多人都有非常健康的地图。

And there are probably even those rare individuals that don't need to go into those cupboards that reside within structure of self and function of self and do any work.

甚至可能有一些罕见的人不需要进入那些存在于自我结构和自我功能中的橱柜并做任何工作。

But for those of you that are just listening and not watching this, I'm sort of smiling as I'm saying that because I don't actually believe any such person exists.

但对于那些只是听而不看的人来说，我在说这句话时有点微笑，因为我实际上不相信有这样的人存在。

I think all of us, even the healthiest among us, could be even healthier and express more generative drive and more positivity for ourselves and for the world-

我认为我们所有人，甚至是我们当中最健康的人，都可以变得更加健康，并为我们自己和世界表现出更多的生成动力和更多的积极性——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

were we to do that work.

我们要做那项工作吗？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So it's a lifelong-

所以这就是一辈子——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

There's no endpoint to that.

没有终点。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

That's beautiful.

那很漂亮。

We can do that forever, as long as we're here.

只要我们还在这里，我们就可以永远这样做。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And should.

并且应该。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I do believe.

我确实相信。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Which is one of the reasons for having this discussion.

这也是进行这次讨论的原因之一。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Exactly.

正是如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Nonetheless, I have to imagine that there are also a lot of people out there, perhaps most people, who still have a lot of work to do.

尽管如此，我必须想象还有很多人，也许是大多数人，仍然有很多工作要做。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And those words a lot perhaps are in boldface capital underline highlighted letters.

这些单词很多可能都是粗体大写下划线突出显示的字母。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right?

对吗？

And as a consequence, we see relationships in the world that are not healthy.

结果，我们看到世界上的关系并不健康。

What are some of those common unhealthy pairings?

常见的不健康配对有哪些？

I think it's worth spending at least a little bit of time on this.

我认为至少值得花一点时间在这上面。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yeah.

是的。

As we talk about this, I think that we should make a sort of somewhat simplified but hopefully helpful distinction.

当我们谈论这个问题时，我认为我们应该做出某种简化但希望有用的区分。

So there are people who are coming at coupling from primarily health.

所以有些人主要是因为健康原因才开始结婚的。

And again, this isn't to criticize people who aren't coming at it from primarily health.

再说一次，这并不是要批评那些主要是因为健康原因而没有做到这一点的人。

We all want to get to where we're coming at anything and everything from primarily health.

我们所有人都希望从健康出发，达到我们想要的目标。

And there, a lot of the problems are those simple things.

在那里，很多问题都是一些简单的事情。

Like, "Wow, I can't believe it didn't work out.

就像，“哇，我不敢相信这没有成功。

I play the trumpet and he plays the clarinet." It's like, no, that wasn't a real set of factors, that's why it didn't work out.

我吹小号，他吹单簧管。”就好像，不，这不是一组真正的因素，这就是它没有成功的原因。

It's more in that realm.

更多的是在那个领域。

It's not always just that, but that kind of stuff is a big factor.

并不总是如此，但这类事情是一个重要因素。

When we look in the other realm, where there's significantly problematic mental health issues.

当我们看看另一个领域时，那里存在严重的心理健康问题。

Which people come by honestly, but need to face if life is going to get better.

人们诚实地走过来，但如果生活要变得更好，就需要面对。

There are two common paradigms there.

那里有两种常见的范式。

Now again, there are way more than two ways this can happen, but I'm going to highlight two that we see a lot, and maybe more than anything else in the clinical setting.

现在，发生这种情况的方式不止两种，但我将重点介绍我们经常看到的两种方式，而且可能比临床环境中的其他方式更多。

So the first gets called repetition compulsion.

所以第一个被称为强迫性重复。

But I want to be very clear, I do not believe that there is any such thing as a repetition compulsion.

但我想非常明确的是，我不相信存在强迫性重复这样的事情。

A compulsion is something that one cannot control.

强迫症是指人们无法控制的事情。

What's going on inside the person is very, very complicated when they're making decisions that lead to repeating a cycle, and those are things that can change, and do not have to be compulsive.

当人们做出导致重复循环的决定时，人的内心发生的事情是非常非常复杂的，而这些事情是可以改变的，而且不一定是强迫性的。

So people are often struck by why a person is in the same bad relationship seemingly, that they have always been in, but with a different name on the other person.

因此，人们常常会惊讶于为什么一个人看似一直处于同样糟糕的关系中，但另一个人却有不同的名字。

People will say this.

人们会这样说。

Like it's that person's fourth abusive relationship in a row, and it seems to be it's just the same person with a different name.

好像这是那个人连续第四次发生虐待关系，而且似乎只是同一个人，但名字不同。

People say that a lot.

人们常这么说。

They say that about themselves, they say that about others, and it's very, very baffling.

他们这样评价自己，也这样评价别人，这非常非常令人困惑。

People have often been in my office very upset about that, realizing they're repeating and they don't know, and it's frightening, and you can get a lot of fear and vulnerability from that.

我办公室里的人们经常对此感到非常不安，他们意识到自己在重复，但他们不知道，这很可怕，你可以从中得到很多恐惧和脆弱。

But there's a way of understanding of that because the limbic system, the emotional parts of our minds don't care about the clock and the calendar.

但有一种理解方式，因为边缘系统，我们大脑中的情感部分，并不关心时钟和日历。

So trauma impacts the whole brain, but trauma impacts the limbic system.

因此，创伤会影响整个大脑，但创伤会影响边缘系统。

It creates strong negative emotion that then stays with us regardless of time.

它会产生强烈的负面情绪，无论时间长短，这种情绪都会伴随着我们。

It doesn't care about time.

它不关心时间。

So imagine now a person gets in a relationship and the relationship starts to become abusive.

想象一下，现在一个人建立了一段关系，并且这种关系开始变得虐待。

It's easy to say that and then move on to something else.

说完这句话然后转向其他事情很容易。

What's that like for that person?

那个人是什么样的？

What does that feel like when that person who they may have seen as a protector, a friend, is now cursing at them, denigrating them, pushing them, hitting them.

当那个他们可能视为保护者、朋友的人现在咒骂他们、诽谤他们、推他们、打他们时，那感觉如何？

It's terrifying.

太可怕了。

It's horrible.

太可怕了。

So it is a deep impact, a traumatic impact on the person, and a lot of the time, most of the time, like all trauma, it triggers shame.

所以这是一种深刻的影响，对人的创伤性影响，很多时候，大多数时候，就像所有的创伤一样，它会引发羞耻。

So trauma triggers shame in us.

所以创伤会引发我们的羞耻感。

If the trauma is strong enough, it changes us as we move forward in the world, and then we are different in a way that makes the past very immediate in the present.

如果创伤足够强烈，当我们在世界上前进时，它就会改变我们，然后我们就会以某种方式与众不同，使过去变得非常直接。

So what the person then is trying to do, and there's been a lots of thought about this over the years in the fields trying to understand this, and I think in many ways doing a good job of understanding this, that the, quote unquote, "repetition compulsion" is the drive, and I don't mean drive like we're saying, there's a push inside the person to try and make that right.

那么这个人想要做什么，多年来在试图理解这一点的领域对此进行了很多思考，我认为在很多方面都很好地理解了这一点，“重复强迫”是驱动力，我的意思不是像我们所说的驱动力，而是人内心有一种推动力去尝试并使其正确。

With the idea that if that person can be in that situation again, and I don't mean in the exact situation when someone raises a hand to them, but they can navigate a relationship because they thought it was a good idea the first time, so they don't want to feel like that was a very bad idea.

我的想法是，如果那个人可以再次处于那种情况，我并不是指在有人向他们举手的确切情况下，但他们可以处理一段关系，因为他们第一次认为这是一个好主意，所以他们不想觉得这是一个非常糟糕的主意。

So I'm going to make it right, and then I'm going to be okay, and I'm going to be whole.

所以我要改正，然后我就会好起来，我就会变得完整。

Because the person is driven by fear and vulnerability and the shame of the trauma, so then they're trying to make it right because the limbic system doesn't care about the clock or the calendar.

因为这个人是被恐惧、脆弱和创伤的耻辱所驱使的，所以他们会试图纠正它，因为边缘系统不关心时钟或日历。

If you can make it right now, you make it right in the past.

如果你现在能做到，那么你过去也能做到。

Because that system doesn't care about the past, it's driven by trauma.

因为这个系统不关心过去，它是由创伤​​驱动的。

So then the person's trying to figure out something that is different.

那么这个人就会试图找出一些不同的东西。

They're trying to choose that person, behave in the relationship.

他们试图选择那个人，在关系中表现得很好。

They're trying to make things different.

他们正在努力让事情变得不同。

But they've selected for a dramatically high pretest probability of the same thing happening again.

但他们选择了同样的事情再次发生的极高概率。

Which is why if I could count the number of times that someone has said to me, "Oh, you're not going to help me." Especially at the beginning of therapy.

这就是为什么如果我能数一下有人对我说“哦，你不会帮助我的”的次数。特别是在治疗开始时。

"There's no way you can help me.

“你没有办法帮助我。

My last five relationships were totally terrible.

我最近的五段感情非常糟糕。

There's no way.

没办法啊

There's no hope." People have said that to me.

没有希望了。”人们对我这么说过。

So many.

这么多。

"The last three, the last five, the last nine." And I will say back, "If you tell me seven different stories of relationships with seven pretty different people, several different relationships as they evolved and the same really bad outcome, I'll agree with you.

“最后三名，最后五名，最后九名。”我会回答说：“如果你告诉我七个不同的故事，关于与七个截然不同的人的关系，几种不同的关系的演变以及同样非常糟糕的结果，我会同意你的观点。

But you're not going to tell me that.

但你不会告诉我这个的。

And that's why there's hope." And no one has ever told me seven different stories where I feel like, wow, you just can't do it.

这就是为什么还有希望。”从来没有人给我讲过七个不同的故事，让我觉得，哇，你就是做不到。

No. And again, even if there were seven, I'm saying these things for exaggeration.

不。再说一次，即使有七个，我这么说也是夸张的。

But there aren't.

但没有。

What is it?

它是什么？

It's the same thing seven times.

同样的事情重复了七次。

That's what it is.

就是这样。

Because the person is repeating, and if they can understand the what and the why, why are they selecting, how are they selecting someone?

因为这个人在重复，如果他们能够理解什么和为什么，他们为什么选择，他们如何选择某人？

What's going on inside of them?

他们内心发生了什么？

We go back to the structure of self, the function of self.

我们回到自我的结构，自我的功能。

We address what is there.

我们解决那里的问题。

Then that absolutely can change.

那么这绝对可以改变。

And then what we talk about is that person then goes out to find another relationship, even if they said they never would again.

然后我们谈论的是那个人出去寻找另一种关系，即使他们说他们再也不会了。

Now they're making the decision to go out.

现在他们正在做出出去的决定。

As you say, what relationship are you looking for?

正如你所说，你在寻找什么关系？

Your second.

你的第二个。

You're the first one seven times.

你七次都是第一。

No harm, no foul.

没有伤害，没有犯规。

But you can navigate the second because they're in a different place.

但您可以导航第二个，因为它们位于不同的位置。

They're coming through agency and gratitude instead of denigrating themselves and fear.

他们是通过代理和感激来实现的，而不是贬低自己和恐惧。

What's wrong with me?

我怎么了？

What's wrong with everybody else?

其他人都怎么了？

Look, I'm here.

看，我来了。

Even though some bad things have happened to me, look at what I can bring myself to bear.

即使我遇到了一些不好的事情，但看看我能承受什么。

I can go out there and try and find someone I can see with clear vision now.

我现在可以出去尝试寻找一个我能看得清楚的人。

There's agency, there's gratitude, and then that person can go out and find relationship number two that's a really good one.

有代理，有感恩，然后那个人就可以出去寻找第二号关系，这是一个非常好的关系。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In the example you gave, it's very powerful and also very extreme, an abusive relationship where someone is sadly getting hit or screamed at.

在你给出的例子中，这种关系非常强大，也非常极端，这是一种虐待关系，有人悲伤地遭到殴打或尖叫。

Oftentimes, it seems people end up in repeated unsuccessful pairings, meaning unhappy pairings of maybe someone who's very strongly assertive, maybe we would say has a strong, aggressive drive.

通常情况下，人们似乎会反复出现不成功的配对，这意味着可能是一个非常自信的人，也许我们会说有一个强大的、侵略性的动力，但配对不愉快。

Some people might even call them a narcissist.

有些人甚至可能称他们为自恋者。

That phrase is thrown around a lot these days.

这句话现在经常被提及。

Narcissist, gaslighting, projection.

自恋者、煤气灯操纵、投射。

These phrases are thrown around all the time, I think with, frankly, very little understanding of what they actually mean unless they're coming from a qualified clinician.

坦率地说，我认为这些短语一直被抛出，除非它们来自合格的临床医生，否则人们对它们的实际含义知之甚少。

Is it the case that somewhat passive or submissive people are drawn to narcissists?

是否有些被动或顺从的人会被自恋者所吸引？

Are narcissists drawn to submissive people?

自恋者会被顺从的人所吸引吗？

I think these questions ring in a lot of people's minds.

我想这些问题都在很多人的脑海中萦绕。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

If I could clarify something that I think I maybe could have said in a clearer way.

如果我能澄清一些我认为我可能可以更清楚地表达的事情。

You pointed out that the example I gave was a very strong one, an extreme one.

你指出我举的例子是一个非常有力、极端的例子。

So as a physician, I think I naturally gravitate to the extreme circumstances because they're the ones that bring the greatest risk.

因此，作为一名医生，我认为我自然会倾向于极端情况，因为它们会带来最大的风险。

But we are talking to people in those settings.

但我们正在与那些环境中的人们交谈。

But most people are not in those extreme settings.

但大多数人并不处于那些极端的环境中。

But that extreme serves as a model for how things that are less extreme can happen.

但这种极端情况可以作为一个模型，说明不那么极端的事情是如何发生的。

So when I think we're sitting here talking to everyone across the spectrum, and most relationships that are not going well, thank goodness, are not going to be that extreme, or the repeated patterns aren't going to be that extreme.

因此，当我认为我们坐在这里与各个领域的每个人交谈时，谢天谢地，大多数进展不顺利的关系都不会那么极端，或者重复的模式也不会那么极端。

But it's just as important to pay attention to a pattern where one person really is more deferential than they would like to be to the other, than is comfortable to them, and they're seeking someone, ultimately, who's just a little bit more assertive.

但同样重要的是要注意一种模式，即一个人确实比他们想要的对另一个人更加恭敬，超出了他们的舒适度，而他们最终正在寻找一个稍微自信一点的人。

And that's not some disaster, but it cannot go well over time, where that person slowly gives up, say, more and more of themselves.

这不是什么灾难，但随着时间的推移，事情不会顺利进行，那个人会慢慢地放弃，比如说，越来越多的自己。

And there can be that repeated pattern.

并且可能存在重复的模式。

You hear people say, "Yeah, it was pretty good or pretty equal at the beginning, but then I just had less and less of a say," or, "Then more and more, I just became the whole relationship." So it's no less important when it's less dramatic because the relationship still goes in the wrong way.

你会听到人们说，“是的，一开始非常好或相当平等，但后来我的发言权越来越少”，或者，“然后越来越多，我就成了整个关系。”因此，当事情不那么戏剧化时，这一点也同样重要，因为关系仍然朝着错误的方向发展。

When it's more dramatic, there's more risk, of course.

当然，当事情变得更加戏剧化时，风险就会更大。

But most people are going to be in the less dramatic but super important category, and I think it's important to point that out, too.

但大多数人都属于不太引人注目但非常重要的类别，我认为指出这一点也很重要。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

How much of what we're talking about is nested on people's deep, perhaps understandable desire to just make sure that the other person doesn't leave?

我们所谈论的内容有多少是基于人们内心深处的、或许可以理解的愿望，即确保对方不会离开？

I can't tell you how many times I've heard about or observed relationships that from the outside it seemed really unhealthy, but it also occurred to me that people are doing things on both sides of the relationship that ensure that the other person doesn't leave.

我无法告诉你有多少次我听说或观察到这样的关系，从表面上看，这似乎真的不健康，但我也想到，人们在关系的双方都在做一些事情，以确保对方不会离开。

So I'm not talking about a physical trapping of someone in the environment.

所以我并不是在谈论将某人困在环境中的物理行为。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm actually talking about the opposite.

我实际上正在谈论相反的事情。

I'm talking about somebody going against their better judgment-

我说的是有人违背了他们更好的判断-

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and doing things for the other person or against themselves, or both.

为他人或为自己做事，或两者兼而有之。

Perhaps even in the context of what looks like healthy family, like doing an excessive amount of raising of children or excessive amount of work to support the family, simply to ensure that the other person doesn't leave.

也许即使在看似健康的家庭背景下，比如过度抚养孩子或过度工作来养家糊口，只是为了确保对方不会离开。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

Here again, we can look across the spectrum.

在这里，我们再次可以纵观全局。

So before this, you had talked about relationships that can be very unhealthy, like a narcissistic person, and how can those relationships develop.

在此之前，您谈到了可能非常不健康的关系，例如自恋的人，以及如何发展这些关系。

It's important that we touch on that in the context of this, because that's the extreme example.

重要的是我们在这个背景下触及这一点，因为这是一个极端的例子。

So people who are narcissistic, meaning a narcissistic character structure.

因此，自恋的人，意味着具有自恋的性格结构。

Now we're getting into the realm of significant psychiatric problems, and people who are narcissistic are exploitive.

现在我们正在进入严重的精神问题领域，自恋的人是剥削性的。

They're a bottomless pit of need arising from vulnerability.

它们是因脆弱性而产生的无底洞。

And yes, they can be helped, and if someone out there thinks, "I'm narcissistic," then not trying to be negative or mean, you can get help, and you can be better.

是的，他们可以得到帮助，如果有人认为“我很自恋”，那么不要试图变得消极或刻薄，你可以获得帮助，你可以变得更好。

That's the whole point of what you and I are talking about here.

这就是你和我在这里讨论的重点。

So people can change, but someone who's coming at the world through a narcissistic character structure is exploitive of the other and then can, say, survey a room and find that person who's had trauma such that that person is going to be desperate not to leave a relationship, and then they can exploit that person and often behave in awful ways, and the other person won't leave.

所以人们可以改变，但是那些通过自恋的性格结构来到这个世界的人是在剥削他人，然后可以说，调查一个房间并发现那个遭受过创伤的人，以至于那个人会不顾一切地不离开一段关系，然后他们可以利用那个人并经常做出可怕的行为，而另一个人不会离开。

Now, I'm giving an example.

现在，我举一个例子。

It's not the case that way every single time, but that's the dominant picture if you have a narcissistic person, and who is that person more likely to pair with, and then you sense the vulnerability, the desire for the other person not to leave.

情况并非每次都是如此，但如果你有一个自恋的人，并且那个人更有可能与谁配对，那么这就是主要画面，然后你会感觉到脆弱，渴望对方不要离开。

And that person would have to have then significant problems in themselves, like potentially instead of a pathological level of narcissism, a pathological level of dependence, for example.

那么这个人本身就必须有重大问题，例如潜在的而不是病态的自恋，而是病态的依赖。

So we're in the realm then of real problems.

所以我们现在正面临真正的问题。

And again, real problems can be treated, and real problems can be improved, and that's why we have clinical care.

再说一次，真正的问题可以得到治疗，真正的问题可以得到改善，这就是我们进行临床护理的原因。

But it can also serve as a model for seeing the ways that are less dramatic.

但它也可以作为一个模型来了解不那么引人注目的方式。

So there are Many people who through the desire for the other person not to leave, and we could call that attachment insecurity.

因此，有很多人希望对方不要离开，我们可以称这种执着为不安全感。

Right?

正确的？

And maybe if we leave away the stereotype version of it, the person doesn't feel securely attached to the other person, right?

也许如果我们抛开刻板印象，这个人就不会感到与另一个人有安全的依恋，对吗？

And somewhere inside of them, they've learned that if they're more pleasing, if they give up little parts of themselves, that person won't leave.

在他们内心的某个地方，他们知道，如果他们更讨人喜欢，如果他们放弃自己的一小部分，那个人就不会离开。

Right?

正确的？

It might be because that's why their mother didn't leave their father when they think about it.

也许这就是为什么他们的母亲没有离开他们的父亲的原因。

It might be that's why their father left their mother, because their mother wouldn't do that.

这可能就是他们的父亲离开母亲的原因，因为他们的母亲不会这样做。

Right?

正确的？

Whatever it may be, or it may be their own prior life experience, or who knows, something they read but forgot.

不管是什么，也可能是他们自己以前的生活经历，或者谁知道，他们读过但忘记了的东西。

Usually it's something more salient, not always.

通常它是更显着的东西，但并非总是如此。

But they've internalized something that leads to a compromise of the self.

但他们已经内化了一些导致自我妥协的东西。

Now again, that's not what attachment insecurity is, right?

现在再说一遍，这不是依恋不安全感，对吗？

Attachment insecurity is just feeling some insecurity about the attachment.

依恋不安全感只是对依恋感到一些不安全感。

So for example, I feel attachment insecurity about just about everything.

举例来说，我对几乎所有事情都感到依恋不安全感。

Right?

正确的？

I've had the experience of sudden, very painful losses happening.

我有过突然发生、非常痛苦的损失的经历。

Right?

正确的？

So I have attachment insecurity in the sense that I'm worried.

所以我有执着不安全感，即我担心。

I get anxious about people going away, and I want to over control.

我对人们离开感到焦虑，我想要过度控制。

But I recognize this inside myself.

但我内心认识到这一点。

I try and do my best to say, "Look, I don't want that to make me unhealthy.

我尽力说：“听着，我不想让这让我变得不健康。

I want to recognize it.

我想认出它。

I want to find some happy medium where I honor that in me, but don't get carried away with it to the point where I try and over control, and then I push my relationships away." Right?

我想找到一些快乐的媒介，让我尊重自己的这一点，但不要得意忘形，以至于我试图过度控制，然后把我的人际关系推开。”正确的？

So I say that because there's such a contrast between that kind of attachment insecurity, which can involve over control, right, and the kind of attachment insecurity that can involve compromise of the self.

所以我这么说是因为这种依恋不安全感（可能涉及过度控制、权利）和那种可能涉及自我妥协的依恋不安全感之间存在着巨大的对比。

So we want to be very, very careful.

所以我们要非常非常小心。

We want to be careful, like what is a trauma bond and what does it mean?

我们要小心，比如什么是创伤纽带，它意味着什么？

We want to be careful.

我们要小心。

What is attachment insecurity and what does it mean?

什么是依恋不安全感？它是什么意思？

A certain kind of attachment insecurity can lead a person to make progressive compromises of self that are not good and healthy for them.

某种依恋不安全感会导致一个人不断地自我妥协，这对他们来说是不利和健康的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm curious about some of these unhealthy relationships from the other side.

我对对方的一些不健康关系很好奇。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Meaning from the side of the person who is, let's hope not, but in some cases exploited-

从这个人的角度来看，我们希望不是这样，但在某些情况下是被剥削的——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

or who's being taken advantage of, or in this scenario of a narcissistic person or an abusive person is the one who's taking the abuse.

或者谁被利用了，或者在这种情况下，自恋者或虐待者就是遭受虐待的人。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Often it seems the victim in that scenario will be truly stuck in that situation.

通常情况下，这种情况下的受害者似乎会真正陷入这种情况。

They can't leave for financial reasons or kids or their own internal workings.

他们不能因为经济原因、孩子或自己的内部运作而离开。

Their psychological machinery has them locked into that in some way, and it's that locked in by psychological machinery that I'm interested in, and I think a lot of people are interested in.

他们的心理机制以某种方式将他们锁定在这种状态中，而我感兴趣的是被心理机制锁定的状态，而且我认为很多人都对此感兴趣。

Because from the outside, we just look at that and say, "Why doesn't the person leave?

因为从外面看，我们只是看着这个并说：“为什么这个人不离开？

Why don't they just leave?" But clearly there's something about that situation that, quote unquote, "works for them."

他们为什么不离开呢？”但显然，这种情况有一些东西，直接引用，“对他们有用”。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And by works for them, I don't mean that it's adaptive.

我所说的对他们有用，并不是说它是适应性的。

Clearly it's maladaptive, but that works for them.

显然这是不适应的，但这对他们有用。

The possibility I raised earlier perhaps is relevant here.

我之前提出的可能性也许与此相关。

Maybe it works for them because they know that the narcissist gets some sort of internal reward for engaging this kind of dynamic and therefore won't leave.

也许这对他们有用，因为他们知道自恋者会因为参与这种动态而获得某种内部奖励，因此不会离开。

And the other person not leaving is of more value to them than-

而另一个不离开的人对他们来说比——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

feeling safe even.

甚至感到安全。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

So it's trading one form of safety for another.

因此，这是用一种形式的安全来换取另一种形式的安全。

Or perhaps the victim, as we're calling them in this scenario, is somebody who feels a great sense of reward by serving somebody more powerful than them.

或者，也许受害者，正如我们在这种情况下所说的那样，是那些通过为比他们更强大的人服务而感到巨大回报的人。

This raises all sorts of interesting questions, perhaps about power dynamics as well, which-

这提出了各种有趣的问题，也许也与权力动态有关，其中——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

I certainly have questions about.

我当然有疑问。

But what are some examples of the internal workings of such a person that reside within those bins of structure of self or function of self that would put someone into that sort of situation and lead them to stay in that kind of situation?

但是，有哪些例子可以说明这样一个人的内部运作方式，这些内部运作方式存在于自我结构或自我功能的箱子中，这些箱子会将某人置于那种情况并导致他们停留在那种情况下？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Well, any situation like that, if it's, as you say, working for a person.

好吧，任何类似的情况，如果它像你所说的那样，为一个人工作的话。

Which at times, we see that from the outside because things continue to go along, and things continue to go forward.

有时，我们从外部看到这一点，因为事情继续发展，事情继续向前发展。

But that only works for someone if they don't have the understanding, the empowerment that we would wish for anyone and everyone to have.

但这仅适用于那些不具备我们希望任何人和每个人都拥有的理解和赋权的人。

So what is going on inside leads that person to feel a sense of an inability to change.

因此，内心发生的事情会让这个人感到无法改变。

Whether they can't see their way out of it or they kind of could but could never navigate to it.

无论他们看不到摆脱困境的出路，还是他们可以但永远无法找到出路。

And there's a problem there if that's working for someone, right?

如果这对某人有用，那就有问题了，对吧？

Because we're talking about something that's exploitive, right?

因为我们正在谈论一些剥削性的事情，对吗？

That's abusive, regardless of how it's abusive.

这就是辱骂，无论怎样辱骂。

And I think, I believe, that can only happen in the context of being demoralized.

我认为，我相信，这只有在士气低落的情况下才会发生。

Right?

正确的？

Or the circumstances of being so disempowered, right?

或者是在如此被剥夺权力的情况下，对吧？

If someone just can't go 10 feet from home.

如果有人不能离开家 10 英尺。

There are situations of outrageous amounts of oppression of a person where the person just cannot choose differently, and there are situations where we, as stewards of all of us, where the government may intervene, for example, ideally, right?

在某些情况下，一个人会受到令人难以容忍的压迫，而这个人无法做出不同的选择；在某些情况下，我们作为我们所有人的管理者，政府可能会进行干预，例如，理想情况下，对吗？

That someone would come in and help that person.

有人会进来帮助那个人。

But barring that kind of outlier, a person would only be in that situation in the context of being demoralized, and that demoralization would come from too low a drive for assertion, being proactive, aggression.

但除非出现这种异常情况，否则一个人只有在士气低落的情况下才会处于这种情况，而士气低落可能来自于主张、主动、攻击性太低。

Right?

正确的？

That drive, its realization is too low.

那驱动，它的实现太低了。

And if we give people the understanding and we give them the help, the means, they don't have to stay in abusive situations.

如果我们给予人们理解，给予他们帮助和手段，他们就不必继续处于虐待的境地。

We see this in situations where our society will intervene or someone helpful will intervene.

当我们的社会会干预或有帮助的人会干预的情况下，我们会看到这种情况。

Some person or entity will intervene and help a person.

有些人或实体会干预并帮助一个人。

Help that person to understand What's going on inside of them that leads them to feel that things can't be better, or they can't do better, or that they're not worth better, or whatever that may be, and help them to find the empowerment to then navigate themselves out of the situation.

帮助那个人了解他们内心正在发生什么，导致他们觉得事情不可能更好，或者他们不能做得更好，或者他们不值得更好，或者任何可能的东西，并帮助他们找到授权，然后引导自己摆脱这种情况。

And here again, I think it's not just agency, but it's agency plus gratitude, right?

再说一次，我认为这不仅仅是代理，而是代理加感激，对吗？

Including gratitude for having a self that could leave a situation.

包括对拥有一个可以摆脱困境的自我的感激之情。

When people are in situations like that, we talk about people as beaten down.

当人们处于这种情况时，我们会说他们被打败了。

It's a way to capture what I think that feels like and how much suffering there is in those situations to be in that place and to not have the agency to get out of it, then the person is not feeling a sense of gratitude for self, right?

这是一种捕捉我认为的感觉的方式，以及在那些情况下在那个地方有多少痛苦，并且没有能力摆脱它，那么这个人就不会感到对自己的感激之情，对吗？

They feel so bad about self that there's nothing to be grateful for, right?

他们对自己感觉很糟糕，没有什么值得感激的，对吧？

And there is so much to be grateful for, right?

还有很多值得感激的事情，对吧？

We could go through any person in a situation like that, and we could list wonderful things about that person, adaptive things about that person, kind things about that person, diligent things.

我们可以在这样的情况下考察任何一个人，我们可以列出那个人的精彩之处，那个人的适应能力，那个人的善良之处，勤奋的地方。

There are things like that in every person.

每个人身上都有这样的事情。

But if the person can't see that, they can't attach to that, they can't have the agency and gratitude, then they stay in a situation that is really defined by the agency and gratitude, and therefore that aggressive assertion, proactive drive being expressed at such a low level.

但如果这个人看不到这一点，他们就无法依恋这一点，他们就没有能动性和感激之情，那么他们就会停留在真正由能动性和感激之情定义的情况下，因此，积极的主张、主动的驱动力就会在如此低的水平上表达出来。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I can see how a healthy relationship could exist in relative isolation, not complete isolation.

我可以看到健康的关系是如何在相对孤立而不是完全孤立的情况下存在的。

And here again, I'm referring to or thinking about a romantic relationship.

在这里，我再次提到或思考浪漫关系。

I can see how a healthy romantic relationship could exist in relative isolation.

我可以看到健康的浪漫关系如何能够在相对孤立的情况下存在。

A few friends, some contact with family members, or in great connectivity with friends and family and neighbors, et cetera, and still be a really great romantic relationship.

有几个朋友，与家人有一些联系，或者与朋友、家人和邻居保持良好的联系等等，仍然是一段非常好的浪漫关系。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Sure.

当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I can also see how the sorts of relationships that we happen to be focusing on at this moment, which are these unhealthy dynamics, are made far worse by lack of connectivity to outsiders.

我还可以看到我们此刻所关注的各种关系，即这些不健康的动态，由于缺乏与外界的联系而变得更加糟糕。

In fact, a previous guest on this podcast was David Buss, who's a professor of evolutionary psychology down at the University of Texas, Austin, and he talked about some of his research into the dark triad.

事实上，这个播客的前一位嘉宾是大卫·巴斯（David Buss），他是德克萨斯大学奥斯汀分校的进化心理学教授，他谈到了他对黑暗三合会的一些研究。

These are narcissistic, Machiavellian, sometimes also sociopathic individuals, and how that plays out in romantic relationships.

这些人是自恋的、马基雅维利式的，有时也是反社会的人，以及这在浪漫关系中的表现。

And it's a terrible thing, but an important thing to understand given the unfortunate frequency that that occurs.

这是一件可怕的事情，但考虑到这种情况发生的频率，理解这一点很重要。

But one of the things that I remember so clearly from that discussion with David Buss was that even when there isn't sociopathy or a strong desire to destroy the other, that in these sorts of relationships, there's often an attempt to isolate the person.

但在与大卫·巴斯的讨论中，我记得很清楚的一件事是，即使没有反社会人格或摧毁对方的强烈愿望，在这种关系中，也经常会试图孤立这个人。

First by isolating them from their family, also from friends and coworkers, but all with the goal of convincing that person that no one else would want them-

首先，将他们与家人、朋友和同事隔离开来，但所有这些都是为了让那个人相信没有人会想要他们——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

as a way to make them-

作为一种使它们-

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

quote unquote, voluntarily stay.

报价不报价，自愿留下。

In other words, to undermine their sense of safety-

换句话说，破坏他们的安全感——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

to ramp up their sense-

增强他们的感觉-

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

of anxiety, except in the presence of that individual.

焦虑，除非那个人在场。

And I'm remembering that now because as we're talking about why wouldn't somebody just leave, why wouldn't they just tap into that agency and gratitude?

我现在记得这一点，因为当我们谈论为什么有人不离开时，为什么他们不利用这种机构和感激之情？

It's clear that the oppressor in this kind of relationship has a real incentive to try and undermine agency and gratitude.

很明显，这种关系中的压迫者有真正的动机去尝试破坏代理和感激之情。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because, of course, with those, they would be revealed for what they are, and the person would feel enabled to leave.

因为，当然，有了这些，他们的真实面目就会被揭露，而这个人会觉得自己能够离开。

Taking us back once again to the critical need to cultivate agency and gratitude, not just in unhealthy, but certainly in healthy relationships.

让我们再次回到培养能动性和感恩之心的迫切需要，不仅在不健康的关系中，而且在健康的关系中也是如此。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

I think the principle here is that darkness always favors the oppressor.

我认为这里的原则是黑暗总是有利于压迫者。

So the oppressor wishes for darkness.

所以压迫者希望黑暗。

So you want to isolate that person, right?

所以你想孤立那个人，对吗？

Because when people see that things are better for someone else, they realize things can be better, right?

因为当人们看到别人的事情变得更好时，他们就会意识到事情可以变得更好，对吗？

When people are told by someone that they're worthwhile, or they're funny, or they're pretty, or they're smart, or whatever the case may be, they may take that inside, right?

当人们被某人告知他们是有价值的，或者他们很有趣，或者他们很漂亮，或者他们很聪明，或者无论什么情况时，他们可能会接受，对吗？

They may take inside, "Oh, maybe I am.

他们可能会想，“哦，也许我是。

I'm handsome and smart, maybe." Or they start thinking about that.

也许我很英俊，也很聪明。”或者他们开始​​思考这个问题。

They're very basic concepts that allow a person to entertain new ways to look at themselves, right?

它们是非常基本的概念，允许人们以新的方式看待自己，对吗？

So the person who's oppressing wants that person to live in darkness.

所以压迫者希望那个人生活在黑暗中。

They don't want them to see that there can be better.

他们不希望他们看到还有更好的。

They don't want them to be directly told that they're better than how things are.

他们不希望别人直接告诉他们，他们比实际情况要好。

And that same darkness on the outside, say the lights are out around the relationship, is the goal of the oppressor on the inside.

同样的外部黑暗，比如关系周围的灯光都熄灭了，是内部压迫者的目标。

Now, again, the oppressor may know this and be doing it consciously, but often this gets played out in unconscious ways, like the constant denigration of someone.

现在，压迫者可能知道这一点，并且有意识地这样做，但这种行为常常以无意识的方式发挥作用，比如不断诽谤某人。

The person isn't saying inside, "Gosh, I'm trying to reduce their agency, their aggressive drive, really down to zero," right?

这个人不会在心里说，“天哪，我正在努力减少他们的代理权，他们的攻击性动力，真的降到零，”对吗？

But that's what they're doing.

但这就是他们正在做的事情。

Somewhere inside, there's a knowing of that, even if it's an unconscious knowing.

在内心的某个地方，有一种认识，即使是无意识的认识。

And then what the impact of that kind of abuse over time is a lower and lower ability to bring oneself to bear.

随着时间的推移，这种虐待的影响是让自己承受的能力越来越低。

Less proactive, aggressive, assertive, lower sense of agency and gratitude.

缺乏主动性、攻击性、自信，代理意识和感恩意识较低。

That's really the definition of being demoralized, right?

这确实是士气低落的定义，对吗？

And that kind of abuse is always promoting demoralization because demoralization is the darkness on the inside, right?

这种虐待总是会导致士气低落，因为士气低落是内心的黑暗，对吗？

Just as envy is, too, right?

就像嫉妒一样，对吧？

Demoralization is a form of darkness on the inside.

士气低落是内心黑暗的一种形式。

Envy is no less dark.

嫉妒同样黑暗。

Envy may be a lot more active, right?

嫉妒可能更活跃，对吧？

But in both cases, there's no knowledge, there's no growth, there's no wisdom, there's no learning, right?

但在这两种情况下，都没有知识，没有成长，没有智慧，没有学习，对吗？

So there are the states of darkness, and what can happen in a way that's Really so tragic to think about is you often can have an abuser, an oppressor, who is living in total darkness inside.

所以存在着黑暗的状态，而可能发生的事情真的是非常悲惨，想想你经常会遇到一个施虐者、一个压迫者，他的内心生活在完全的黑暗中。

Living through the lens of envy.

生活在嫉妒的镜头下。

And then you can have a person who is being oppressed, who is being exploited, who is living in darkness, but they're living in the darkness of demoralization.

然后你可能会遇到一个被压迫、被剥削、生活在黑暗中的人，但他们生活在士气低落的黑暗中。

And that's a very sad thing to say, to imagine, and it's been a very sad thing to see, right?

说起来、想象起来都是一件非常悲伤的事情，看到这也是一件非常悲伤的事情，对吧？

Because if you do clinical psychiatry for long enough, you see a lot of this, and it doesn't have to be this way.

因为如果你从事临床精神病学足够长的时间，你会看到很多这样的情况，但事情不一定是这样的。

Even the people who are oppressing have it within them the majority of time to make things better, and we do see that.

即使是那些压迫者，大多数时候也有让事情变得更好的愿望，我们确实看到了这一点。

I took care of a man a long time ago who had been terribly abusive to his family, and it was always unclear to me, it had happened years before, that he just understood.

很久以前，我照顾过一个男人，他对他的家人进行了严重的虐待，我一直不清楚，这件事发生在几年前，他只是理解。

And again, I never understood what happened that he got it, and the man really made change.

再说一遍，我从来不明白他得到它后发生了什么，而这个人真的做出了改变。

Again, I don't know what the circumstance was that made that motivation in him, but he went back and looked at himself, and he went back and looked at how his father oppressed and terrorized the family, and how he just did it with automatically, right?

再说一次，我不知道是什么情况让他有这样的动力，但他回过头看看自己，他回过头看看他的父亲是如何压迫和恐吓这个家庭的，他是如何自动做到的，对吧？

Because of what was rooted in his own fear of vulnerability, and he's going to lose his family and not be a man anymore unless he oppresses them.

因为植根于他对脆弱的恐惧，除非他压迫他们，否则他将失去家人，不再是一个男人。

He recognized all of it in him, and he had changed it so dramatically.

他认识到自己身上的这一切，并且他已经彻底改变了它。

He had removed himself from the family system.

他已经将自己从家庭系统中剔除出来。

And when I got to know him, it was years later, and he was reintegrating back into the system because there had been such prolonged change, and he had communicated to the family his understanding of self.

当我认识他时，已经是几年后的事了，他正在重新融入系统，因为发生了如此漫长的变化，他向家人传达了他对自我的理解。

So it's not impossible.

所以这并非不可能。

Even someone who is abusing, oppressing, coming through a narcissistic character structure, there's no therapeutic nihilism here, right?

即使是一个虐待、压迫、具有自恋性格结构的人，这里也没有治疗虚无主义，对吧？

Things can change, and things can change in the oppressor, which isn't excusing that, right?

事情可以改变，压迫者身上的事情也可以改变，这并不是借口，对吧？

A person who's doing things is morally culpable, right?

一个人做事在道德上是有罪的，对吗？

They often are criminally, legally culpable.

他们常常在刑事和法律上负有责任。

So that is all true, just as the ability to change is true.

所以这都是真的，就像改变的能力也是真的一样。

And then the person we think about more commonly in this situation, of course, is the person who's being oppressed, and there can be change there, too.

当然，在这种情况下，我们更常想到的人是受到压迫的人，那里也可能会发生变化。

But a problem is how hard it can be, the impact of the isolation, right?

但问题是隔离的影响有多难，对吗？

And also the dearth of resources to really help people.

而且还缺乏真正帮助人们的资源。

It's an actual true story of a woman who I believed with all my heart could get out of the cyclic, abusive situation she was in if she had a carburetor.

这是一个真实的故事，讲述的是一个女人的真实故事，我全心全意地相信，如果她有一个化油器，她就能摆脱她所处的循环、虐待的境地。

She had a carburetor, right?

她有化油器，对吗？

She had a car.

她有一辆车。

The car didn't function.

车子没能正常行驶。

She had a place to go where others wouldn't know that she was there.

她有一个地方可以去，但其他人不会知道她在那儿。

And the problem was just a few hundred dollars to change the carburetor.

而问题就在于更换化油器只需几百美元。

But it's like there's no place to go.

但又好像无处可去。

There's no resources.

没有资源啊

We, as a society, don't help people.

作为一个社会，我们不帮助别人。

Now, it may be that someone helped that woman and got her a carburetor and she drove away, right?

现在，可能有人帮助了那个女人，给她买了一个化油器，然后她就开车走了，对吧？

But it shows how we can bring ourselves to bear as a society to offer people help, which sometimes is the lifeline the person needs.

但它展示了我们作为一个社会如何能够承担起为人们提供帮助的责任，有时这是人们需要的生命线。

And maybe that person really needs a safe house or something very dramatic, or they need a carburetor to get away from being terrorized.

也许那个人真的需要一个安全屋或一些非常戏剧性的东西，或者他们需要一个化油器来摆脱恐惧。

But a lot of times, it's just community support structures, right?

但很多时候，这只是社区支持结构，对吧？

Good structures around people in communities that can offer them support in situations that may be less dramatic.

社区中人们周围的良好结构可以在不太严重的情况下为他们提供支持。

Opportunities for interconnection, which sometimes people can find through social venues or through religiously affiliated venues.

相互联系的机会，有时人们可以通过社交场所或宗教附属场所找到这种机会。

But the idea that community support systems on all levels make a huge difference.

但各级社区支持系统的想法会产生巨大的影响。

There's another level beyond the relationship.

除了关系之外还有另一个层面。

It's the society, it's the culture.

这就是社会，这就是文化。

And that's how we, on that next level of emergence, beyond the individual relationships, can foster goodness, can foster health in each and every one of us.

这就是我们如何在下一个层次上超越个人关系，培养善良，促进我们每个人的健康。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

How do some of these same dynamics play out in non-romantic relationships?

这些相同的动态在非浪漫关系中如何发挥作用？

So for instance, in the workplace, I was weaned in academic laboratories, so what's most familiar to me are, gosh, unfortunately numerous examples where people working in laboratories, not the same as mine, because I've been very fortunate to have amazing, benevolent mentors, quirky and outrageous at times, but benevolent nonetheless.

举例来说，在工作场所，我是在学术实验室断奶的，所以我最熟悉的是，天哪，不幸的是，有很多在实验室工作的人与我的不一样，因为我很幸运有令人惊叹的、仁慈的导师，有时古怪而令人震惊，但仍然仁慈。

But others around me have been in laboratories where, for instance, the workload was just ridiculously high.

但我周围的其他人也曾在实验室工作过，那里的工作量高得离谱。

The demand far exceeded what any person could do, and if somebody had, God forbid, a cold or children, it was near impossible to impossible that they could meet the standard there.

这个要求远远超出了任何人的能力范围，如果有人（上帝禁止）感冒或有孩子，他们几乎不可能达到那里的标准。

Or stress dynamics, pressure cooker dynamics that made it what anyone would call a toxic environment.

或者是压力动态、高压锅动态，使其成为任何人所说的有毒环境。

You see this also in law firms.

您在律师事务所也可以看到这一点。

You see it in companies, you see it in families, you see it in friendship circles, right?

你在公司里看到它，你在家庭里看到它，你在朋友圈里看到它，对吗？

How many movies are about teens oppressing one another through bullying and ridicule and practical jokes that are anything but funny, right?

有多少电影是关于青少年通过欺凌、嘲笑和一点也不有趣的恶作剧来互相压迫的，对吧？

That are downright destructive.

这是彻头彻尾的破坏性。

Okay.

好的。

And on and on.

不断地。

And so often the victims in these cases, if it's not a Hollywood movie, feel as if that's their only choice because to leave is to essentially have no other options, right?

通常，这些案件中的受害者，如果不是好莱坞电影，都会觉得这是他们唯一的选择，因为离开基本上就没有其他选择，对吧？

It's not that that's the only option is to stay, it's that to leave is essentially to leave science, because these people in positions of power have the louder voice.

并不是说留下是唯一的选择，而是说离开本质上就是离开科学，因为这些掌握权力的人的声音更大。

They have the megaphone.

他们有扩音器。

They write the letters of recommendation.

他们写推荐信。

The law firms, people talk.

律师事务所，人们说话。

As I spool this out in a long-form question, I'm realizing I can't think of a single exception.

当我用一个长问题来解决这个问题时，我意识到我想不出一个例外。

As long as there are going to be people interacting and people talking about their interactions, and people in positions of power this sort of dynamic is going to take place.

只要有人在互动，有人在谈论他们的互动，只要有人处于权力地位，这种动态就会发生。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

Any time you have a closed system without accountability, you're just rolling the dice for that kind of oppression.

任何时候，只要你有一个没有问责制的封闭系统，你就只是在为这种压迫掷骰子。

We need accountability.

我们需要问责制。

Think about theoretically what should have happened there.

从理论上考虑那里应该发生什么。

There should be higher order accountability.

应该有更高级别的责任。

Whether it's in a company or a university or wherever it may be, there should be higher order accountability that is reasonable and rational.

无论是在公司还是大学，无论在什么地方，都应该有合理、合理的更高层次的责任。

So it's not then acting in a top-down way that would be over-controlling.

因此，以自上而下的方式行事并不构成过度控制。

Telling you exactly what you can and can't say or what you can and can't do, and sometimes there's too much rigidity that can be enacted top-down, but the problem runs both ways.

准确地告诉你什么可以说，什么不能说，什么可以做，什么不能做，有时有太多的僵化可以自上而下地制定，但问题是双向的。

If there's no accountability from the bottom up, then that person is just simply stuck.

如果没有自下而上的问责制，那么这个人就会陷入困境。

Why?

为什么？

Because the system we've put into place has failed.

因为我们建立的系统失败了。

And this is where we're talking now about not just individual relationships with two people relationships, but now we start talking about systems of people, and systems of people are another level of emergence with a personality, so to speak, an environment all their own.

这就是我们现在谈论的不仅仅是个体关系和两个人的关系，而且现在我们开始谈论人的系统，而人的系统是另一个层次的出现，具有个性，可以说，是一个完全属于自己的环境。

You can know everything there is to know about each person in the system.

您可以了解系统中每个人的一切信息。

You don't know about the system.

你对系统一无所知。

But what you do know is that accountability is necessary.

但你所知道的是，问责制是必要的。

Probably if we added up all the examples in history, we'd have to talk about them over 1,000 years.

如果我们把历史上所有的例子加起来，我们可能要谈论它们1000多年。

How many examples do we have that closed systems without accountability are just rolling the dice?

我们有多少例子表明，没有问责制的封闭系统只是在掷骰子？

They breed oppression.

他们滋生压迫。

This is true, and I've been at several different places, so I'm not trying to implicate any one place versus another, but I was part of a medical treatment team.

这是事实，而且我去过几个不同的地方，所以我并不是试图将任何一个地方与另一个地方牵连起来，但我是医疗队的一员。

So this is a hierarchical medical treatment team of maybe seven people, give or take one, depending upon the circumstances, where there was physical abuse going on in the treatment team.

因此，这是一个分级医疗小组，可能有七人，根据情况，在治疗小组中存在身体虐待的情况下，增减一人。

This is true, and I'm not saying this in some exaggerated manner where somebody brushed up too close to someone and they slipped.

这是事实，我并不是以某种夸张的方式说某人与某人擦得太近而他们滑倒了。

No, hurting someone on the treatment team.

不，伤害了治疗小组的某人。

Two different people who were being hurt by someone senior.

两个不同的人都被前辈伤害了。

So this is a major university in a clinical setting.

所以这是一所临床环境中的主要大学。

And it's not like that's the be-all and end-all, but you think about the alleged sophistication of the people in the system, the alleged empowerment of the people in the situation, which did not put a stop to that.

这并不是最重要的，但你想想系统中人们所谓的复杂性，所谓的人们在这种情况下的赋权，这并没有阻止这种情况。

So we need to have accountability.

所以我们需要有责任感。

The accountability has to be reasonable.

责任必须合理。

It doesn't mean over control, but it doesn't mean under control either.

这并不意味着过度控制，但也不意味着受到控制。

And if that person is being overworked, as you described, with no way of winning or harmed on a medical team, and there's no way that person can change that, the system has failed that person and failed them dramatically.

如果那个人工作过度，正如你所描述的，在医疗团队中无法获胜或受到伤害，而且这个人也无法改变这一点，那么系统就让那个人失望了，让他们彻底失望了。

And guess who suffers?

猜猜谁受苦？

Everyone does.

每个人都这样做。

That person suffers.

那个人就受苦了。

And the science that's being done or the medical care that's being provided is important to all of us.

正在进行的科学研究或正在提供的医疗服务对我们所有人都很重要。

Anyone could be the patient who is being taken care of by the team where one person is hurting a couple of the others.

任何人都可能是团队正在照顾的病人，其中一个人伤害了其他几个人。

You think that medical care is going to be optimized?

您认为医疗服务将会优化吗？

Is the science going to be optimized that we're utilizing to try and make our lives better, live longer, be in less pain?

我们正在利用的科学是否会得到优化，让我们的生活变得更好、寿命更长、痛苦更少？

No. What's happening there is envy.

不，那里发生的是嫉妒。

That person who's oppressing other people is driven by envy, whether it's a narcissistic character structure that acts almost exclusively through envy, or it's envy that is in this person's life in this way or not another way.

压迫他人的人是由嫉妒驱使的，无论是一种几乎完全通过嫉妒来表现的自恋性格结构，还是嫉妒以这种方式或其他方式存在于这个人的生活中。

It doesn't matter.

没关系。

What's going on there is envy, and envy is nothing but destructive.

那里发生的事情就是嫉妒，而嫉妒只不过是破坏性的。

The generative drive is nothing but productive.

生成动力只不过是富有成效的。

Envy is nothing but destructive.

嫉妒只不过是破坏性的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Could you remind for people that perhaps may not have heard episodes one and two yet that envy is perhaps not just a desire to be like somebody else, that envy in the context that we're discussing here is something quite possibly different.

您能否提醒那些可能还没有听过第一集和第二集的人，嫉妒可能不仅仅是渴望成为像其他人一样的人，我们在这里讨论的上下文中的嫉妒很可能是不同的东西。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

And there's a varying lexicon, which is why it is important to define it, because I think people learn it in different ways.

并且有不同的词典，这就是为什么定义它很重要，因为我认为人们以不同的方式学习它。

I've heard it talked about in different ways.

我听说过以不同的方式谈论它。

So to define that, there's a difference between jealousy and envy.

因此，要定义这一点，嫉妒和嫉妒之间是有区别的。

And again, we could choose different words, but this is the way I learned it that's been most impactful.

再说一遍，我们可以选择不同的词，但这是我学习最有影响力的方式。

Where jealousy is benign.

嫉妒是良性的。

It's the idea that if I see that you have something that I don't, then I think, "Oh, well, maybe I could work harder and get that thing." Or if I can't have that thing, like maybe it's a person who's younger.

这个想法是，如果我看到你有一些我没有的东西，那么我会想，“哦，好吧，也许我可以更加努力地工作并得到那个东西。”或者，如果我不能拥有那个东西，那也许是一个更年轻的人​​。

Okay, I can't make myself younger.

好吧，我不能让自己变得更年轻。

Then I can think, okay, through a lens of gratitude.

然后我就可以从感恩的角度思考，好吧。

Is that the only thing about me?

这是我唯一的事吗？

I can't think of anything good about myself other than maybe I could be younger.

除了也许我可以更年轻之外，我想不出自己有什么好处。

If you come at that through the lens of health, it's like it's okay.

如果你从健康的角度来看待这一点，那就好像没什么问题。

It can serve to motivate people to try harder, work harder, take a look at themselves, and be more accepting of who they are and what their circumstances in life and what kind of control they can enact and what kind they can't.

它可以激励人们更加努力，更加努力地工作，审视自己，更加接受自己是谁，生活中的处境以及他们可以采取什么样的控制和不能采取什么样的控制。

It's okay.

没关系。

Envy is different.

嫉妒则不同。

Envy comes at that problem from the perspective that bringing down the other person is just as effective as bringing up the self.

嫉妒是从贬低他人和提升自我同样有效的角度来解决这个问题的。

That's why envy is destructive.

这就是为什么嫉妒具有破坏性。

So someone who might see another person and they envy them their youth.

所以有人可能会看到另一个人并羡慕他们的青春。

They envy, they want that, and they want to bring that person down.

他们嫉妒，他们想要那个，他们想要让那个人失望。

Because I can't make myself younger, but then they realize I can't make that person older either, but they can do other things to them.

因为我不能让自己变年轻，但后来他们意识到我也不能让那个人变老，但他们可以对他们做其他事情。

They can sexually harass them, maybe.

也许他们可以对他们进行性骚扰。

They can make terrible jokes that are really insulting and humiliating, maybe.

他们可能会开一些真正具有侮辱性和羞辱性的可怕笑话。

There are all sorts of things a person can do to bring down someone else.

一个人可以做各种各样的事情来打倒别人。

An action of envy is destructive.

嫉妒的行为具有破坏性。

And I truly believe this, that people who come at the world very strongly through envy, by and large, a narcissistic character structure, this is a small percentage of the population, but that small percentage does most of the damage On Earth.

我真的相信这一点，那些非常强烈地通过嫉妒来到这个世界的人，总的来说，这是一种自恋的性格结构，这只是人口的一小部分，但这一小部分对地球造成了大部分损害。

It's a strong thing to say, but when I think about studying political science and thinking about history and learning medicine and learning about psychiatry and sociology, and really trying to look at the world and thinking what drives a person on a medical team who's gotten to be a senior physician to physically hurt doctors lower on the hierarchy?

这是一个很强烈的说法，但是当我想到学习政治学、思考历史、学习医学、学习精神病学和社会学，并真正尝试着观察世界并思考是什么驱使医疗团队中的一个人成为一名高级医生，对级别较低的医生进行身体伤害时？

Envy.

嫉妒。

That person feels terrible about themselves and then is being destructive to those people.

这个人对自己感觉很糟糕，然后对那些人造成破坏。

Same thing is at work in the lab.

实验室里也在进行同样的事情。

The same thing is at work when people start wars of destruction that just simply harm other people, and we can see no other sense of it.

当人们发动破坏性战争而只是伤害他人时，同样的事情也在发生，我们看不到其他任何感觉。

That from the individual setting all the way up to the world setting, we see the destruction of envy, and we also see it inside of us.

从个人环境一直到世界环境，我们看到嫉妒的破坏，我们也看到它在我们的内心。

Because a person who's enacting envy in the world around them, there's no chance of happiness.

因为一个人如果对周围的世界表现出嫉妒，就没有幸福的机会。

Hence the idea of a bottomless pit.

因此就有了无底洞的想法。

Whatever you get.

无论你得到什么。

Let's say an envious person who wants more money.

假设一个嫉妒的人想要更多的钱。

I want to have more money than anybody.

我比任何人都想拥有更多的钱。

I want everyone to have less money than me.

我希望每个人的钱都比我少。

So then they come at the world through the lens of greed.

因此，他们通过贪婪的视角来看待这个世界。

When they get more money, how long does that make them happy?

当他们得到更多的钱时，他们会快乐多久？

This doesn't mean money is bad or having money is bad.

这并不意味着钱是坏事或有钱是坏事。

It just means if you're coming at the world through the lens of envy, and that lens is specifically focused on money, then you'll be a greedy person who is never satisfied, even if you have $10 trillion.

这只是意味着，如果你通过嫉妒的镜头来看待这个世界，而这个镜头特别关注金钱，那么你将是一个永远不会满足的贪婪的人，即使你拥有 10 万亿美元。

So it's never good.

所以永远都不好。

It takes away from that person any possibility of happiness.

它剥夺了那个人任何幸福的可能性。

And if you see people work with people with a narcissistic character structure, there can be a sense of a very brief happiness in the moment.

如果你看到人们与具有自恋性格结构的人一起工作，那一刻可能会有一种非常短暂的幸福感。

Like, I'm happy because I realize I have something someone else doesn't.

就像，我很高兴，因为我意识到我拥有别人没有的东西。

I'm happy because I'm thinking of myself, and even though I feel very insecure and vulnerable inside, I have a whole set of defense mechanisms that let me turn those tables around and then feel good about myself in a way that places me above others.

我很高兴，因为我想到了自己，尽管我内心感到非常不安全和脆弱，但我有一整套防御机制，可以让我扭转局面，然后以一种高于他人的方式自我感觉良好。

Whatever's going on in that person, it may bring some very brief gratification in the moment, but that's not happiness.

无论那个人发生了什么，它可能会在那一刻带来一些非常短暂的满足，但这并不是幸福。

Hence the need for the gratification over and over and over again.

因此需要一次又一次的满足。

Narcissistic people are the least secure, most diffident people on Earth.

自恋的人是地球上最没有安全感、最缺乏自信的人。

They just have a phenomenally healthy defensive structure that comes about in order to try and protect them, that leads them to go to the opposite.

他们只是有一个非常健康的防御结构，为了试图保护他们而出现，这导致他们走向相反的方向。

Some of what's called a reaction formation, going to the very opposite.

有些所谓的反应形成，会走向相反的方向。

Denial, avoidance, rationalization, projection.

否认、回避、合理化、投射。

Very unhealthy defenses that then leads that person to protect themselves from any help while they are frantically trying to gain some goodness that makes them feel good for a split second and then disappears forever.

非常不健康的防御，会导致这个人保护自己免受任何帮助，同时疯狂地试图获得一些让他们感觉良好的瞬间，然后永远消失。

Hence the tremendous predilection for destruction.

因此，人们对破坏有着极大的偏好。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

How do you and how should we think about power dynamics in relationships?

您以及我们应该如何思考人际关系中的权力动态？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And perhaps starting with romantic relationships.

也许从恋爱关系开始。

I've heard it said before that there's always power dynamics in relationships of all kinds.

我以前听人说过，各种关系中总是存在权力动态。

I don't know if that's true or not, but I've heard that.

我不知道这是真是假，但我听说过。

And I've also heard that that's particularly salient in romantic relationships, independent of whether or not it's a homosexual or heterosexual relationship, that there's always, to some extent or another, one leader and one follower.

我还听说，这一点在浪漫关系中尤为突出，无论是同性恋关系还是异性关系，在某种程度上，总是有一个领导者和一个追随者。

This is an interesting, perhaps a controversial idea, but I've heard it enough times that I want to know more about it.

这是一个有趣的想法，也许是一个有争议的想法，但我已经听过很多次了，所以我想了解更多。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Sure.

当然。

So power dynamics, of course, very important, but also something we tend to be so over-reductionist about.

因此，权力动态当然非常重要，但也是我们倾向于过度简化的事情。

This idea, think about that there's always a leader and there's always a follower.

这个想法，想想总有一个领导者，总有一个追随者。

Every single relationship, that's true on balance.

总的来说，每一种关系都是如此。

We tend to be so reductionist, and then what we do is we miss the real power dynamics that are going on.

我们往往过于简化，然后我们所做的就是错过了正在发生的真正的权力动态。

Just like I said in a previous episode, that I think my math minor has helped me the most for all of life.

就像我在上一集中所说的那样，我认为我的数学辅修课程对我一生的帮助最大。

I think a power dynamics course that I took as an undergraduate in political science has helped me the most as a psychiatrist.

我认为我作为政治学本科生学习的权力动力学课程对我作为精神病学家的帮助最大。

Took it long before medical school, because that class taught me so much about power dynamics.

早在医学院之前就开始学习了，因为那堂课教会了我很多关于权力动态的知识。

I thought it was going to be about overt power.

我认为这将是关于公开的权力。

Who has power over whom and tells whom to do what?

谁对谁有权力并告诉谁做什么？

But what I learned is so much of power dynamics are covert.

但我了解到，很多权力动态都是隐蔽的。

They're under the surface.

它们在表面之下。

For example, they're the things that are not said.

例如，它们是没有说出来的事情。

Something that was called at the time, at least, the issue of the non-issue.

至少在当时被称为“非问题的问题”。

Where there's an issue between two people, like this person never takes out the garbage.

两个人之间出现问题，比如这个人从不倒垃圾。

That person always takes out the garbage.

那个人总是倒垃圾。

That person is resentful about it.

那个人对此感到不满。

Both of them know, but the person who always does it can't say so, because if they say so, the first person will punish them in some other way.

他们俩都知道，但总是这样做的人不能这么说，因为如果他们这么说，第一个人就会以其他方式惩罚他们。

By not taking out the garbage, then the place smells.

如果不倒垃圾，这个地方就会发出臭味。

That person goes to work, and the person who's at home has to take it out.

那个人去上班，在家的那个人就得拿出来。

That's one example of the issue of the non-issue.

这是问题与非问题的一个例子。

Other examples are where someone is looking and smiling and being really nice to someone who they know is going to physically harm them if they bring to light that they're actually not happy and don't feel good about that person.

其他例子是，某人看着某人，微笑着，对某个人非常友善，但他们知道，如果他们发现自己实际上不开心并且对那个人感觉不好，就会对他们造成身体伤害。

So from the dramatic to the non-dramatic, unstated power dynamics are going on all over the place, and they're in every single relationship.

因此，从戏剧性到非戏剧性，未言明的权力动态无处不在，而且存在于每一种关系中。

Unless a person is in a relationship with someone else and they're both comatose.

除非一个人与另一个人有关系并且他们都处于昏迷状态。

No, I guess only one of them has to be comatose.

不，我猜他们中只有一个必须昏迷。

There are power dynamics going on.

权力动态正在发生。

But again, it doesn't mean that they're unhealthy.

但这并不意味着它们不健康。

Because there are always power dynamics.

因为总是存在权力动态。

So then what are we looking for?

那么我们要寻找什么呢？

And again, there are a lot of things we could look for, but we could talk about really two primary things.

再说一遍，我们可以寻找很多东西，但我们可以讨论两个主要的事情。

One is look for the non-obvious, and two is the give and take.

一是寻找非显而易见的东西，二是给予和索取。

So the first, even in our own relationships, because it's interesting how many people will say, talk about the power dynamics in their relationship.

所以第一，即使在我们自己的关系中，因为有趣的是有多少人会说，谈论他们关系中的权力动态。

They're not always saying, "Here are the power dynamics in my relationship," but they're telling me about them.

他们并不总是说，“这是我关系中的权力动态”，但他们会告诉我这些。

And they're telling me about the things that are overt.

他们告诉我一些公开的事情。

Right?

正确的？

Now, somewhere inside of them, they know that they can't really raise issue A, B, or C, or there'll be some retribution, whether it's small or large, or they might even know everything's okay and that person is happy, but they know I'm not giving them room to say that they're not happy.

现在，在他们内心的某个地方，他们知道他们不能真正提出问题A、B或C，否则就会有一些报应，无论是小还是大，或者他们甚至可能知道一切都好，那个人很高兴，但他们知道我不会给他们空间说他们不高兴。

And that could just mean if they say they're not happy, then I'll come home a couple hours late the next day, and that person will feel some attachment insecurity because of that.

这可能意味着如果他们说他们不快乐，那么我第二天会晚几个小时回家，而那个人会因此感到一些依恋不安全感。

And there are all sorts of ways this can play out.

实现这一目标的方式有很多种。

But since so much of power dynamics are unstated or covert, kind of like the iceberg of conscious and unconscious, there's an iceberg of power dynamics.

但由于很多权力动态都是未公开或隐蔽的，有点像有意识和无意识的冰山，因此存在权力动态的冰山。

So to think about including in one's own relationships, whether it's a neighbor, it's a friend, it's a work relationship, or most charged, it's romance.

因此，要考虑将自己的关系纳入其中，无论是邻居、朋友、工作关系，还是最紧张的浪漫关系。

What's really going on between us?

我们之间究竟发生了什么？

Right?

正确的？

What's really going on between us?

我们之间究竟发生了什么？

I'm not looking to tell myself lies.

我不想对自己撒谎。

Right?

正确的？

I know that I may not be able to understand all of it, but let me stop and think about it.

我知道我可能无法全部理解，但让我停下来想一想。

And if you ask people to stop and do that, they can say, "Yeah, this is really not okay." Because sometimes they don't know that it's there, or they don't want to know that it's there, and the therapy work is trying to guide them to there's an immense power disparity maybe in the relationship when they're presenting, "No, everything is equal.

如果你要求人们停下来这样做，他们会说：“是的，这真的不好。”因为有时他们不知道它的存在，或者他们不想知道它的存在，而治疗工作试图引导他们认识到，当他们表现出“不，一切都是平等的”时，关系中可能存在巨大的权力差距。

It's a good supportive relationship." You hear that a lot, and of course, it's not always that there's something bad under the surface, but a lot of times there is.

这是一种良好的支持关系。”你经常听到这样的说法，当然，这并不总是表面之下隐藏着不好的东西，但很多时候确实存在。

And even something mildly bad is not okay and can cause problems, and sometimes there's something very bad.

即使是稍微糟糕的事情也是不好的，并且可能会导致问题，有时甚至会出现非常糟糕的事情。

So look for the non-obvious.

所以寻找不明显的东西。

And then the second is that give and take is a very good sign of health.

第二个是给予和索取是健康的一个很好的标志。

So if a person can see that there's give and take, and it might be about something as simple as like who chooses where we go to dinner.

因此，如果一个人能够看到相互给予和索取，那么事情可能就像谁选择我们去哪里吃饭一样简单。

Okay, sometimes one, sometimes the other.

好吧，有时是一个，有时是另一个。

It depends who has a stronger feeling.

就看谁的感情更强烈了。

Or it may be that person always decides where we go to dinner, but the other person's okay with it.

或者可能总是那个人决定我们去哪里吃饭，但另一个人对此表示同意。

Right?

正确的？

And that person always decides what movie they want, the other person.

而那个人总是决定他们想要什么电影，另一个人。

Right?

正确的？

So the idea that there's give and take, and then in periods of time where one person may be in a more difficult place.

因此，有给予和索取的想法，然后在一个人可能处于更困难境地的时期。

One person has a significant loss, right, or an injury or an illness.

一个人遭受重大损失、权利、受伤或患病。

Then you see that that shifts a little bit.

然后你会发现情况发生了一些变化。

One person is giving more, right?

One person is giving more, right?

But then ultimately the idea is that's from the outside, right?

但最终的想法是来自外部，对吗？

If one person is giving more to the other, there's a generosity of spirit in both the giving and the accepting, right, that leads them to then be stronger together.

如果一个人给予另一个人更多，那么在给予和接受中都会有一种慷慨的精神，对吧，这会让他们在一起变得更强大。

So even when people say, well, there are imbalances, in some way if you just look at what's going on day to day, but in a healthy relationship with high generative drive, the periods of imbalance strengthen the relationship.

因此，即使人们说，好吧，在某种程度上，如果你只看每天发生的事情，就存在不平衡，但在具有高生成动力的健康关系中，不平衡的时期会加强这种关系。

You see this with friends where two people have a pretty equal friendship, and then one person has something difficult happen, and the other person is there for them.

你会在朋友身上看到这种情况，两个人有着相当平等的友谊，然后一个人发生了困难，另一个人就在他们身边。

What's true on the other side of that?

事情的另一面又是怎样的呢？

They're better friends, right?

他们是更好的朋友，对吧？

And it's also why we often want to be interconnected when we're healthy.

这也是为什么我们经常希望在健康时保持联系。

What if something bad happens to both of them?

万一两个人都出了什么不好的事情怎么办？

Right?

正确的？

It's good to be interconnected, and friends and family can be supportive to us.

相互联系很好，朋友和家人可以支持我们。

So the idea that give and take is healthy, I think is very central.

因此，我认为给予和索取的观念是健康的，这是非常核心的。

So just looking for evidence.

所以只是寻找证据。

That's often if I don't understand what's going on in the relationship, maybe it's early in the therapy or it's just been kind of opaque or I can't figure it out, I'm looking for is there give and take, because then I'm going to think, okay, more likely than not, things are healthy.

通常，如果我不明白这段关系中发生了什么，也许是在治疗的早期，或者只是有点不透明，或者我无法弄清楚，我正在寻找是否有给予和索取，因为然后我会想，好吧，更有可能的是，事情是健康的。

If I see an imbalance, whether the person knows it or not, I'm thinking more likely than not it's unhealthy, and then they're just clues along the pathway of my efforts to understand.

如果我看到不平衡，无论这个人是否知道，我都会认为它很可能是不健康的，然后它们只是我努力理解的过程中的线索。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The non-obvious piece is really intriguing, as is the give and take.

这个不明显的部分确实很有趣，给予和索取也是如此。

And I really appreciate that you brought up the give and take because that's a very concrete place that we can all look and ask ourselves, even if people aren't in romantic relationships.

我真的很感激你提出了给予和索取，因为这是一个非常具体的地方，我们都可以审视并问自己，即使人们没有恋爱关系。

What is the give and take in a given friendship?

What is the give and take in a given friendship?

And as you mentioned earlier, it doesn't have to be scripted one for one, one for one.

正如您之前提到的，不必一对一、一对一地编写脚本。

Maybe it balances out over time or maybe it doesn't.

也许它会随着时间的推移而平衡，也可能不会。

I've had friendships that have lasted many decades even, where I can honestly say I'm always the person to reach out to the other person.

我的友谊甚至持续了几十年，我可以诚实地说，我总是那个与对方接触的人。

But when they connect, they connect with such a depth of attention that I don't feel any deprivation whatsoever.

但当他们联系起来时，他们的关注度如此之深，以至于我没有感到任何剥夺。

In fact, I don't think I've ever considered that I'm the person that always reaches out until today.

事实上，直到今天我认为我从来没有认为我是那个总是伸出援手的人。

And so it doesn't bother me whatsoever.

And so it doesn't bother me whatsoever.

I feel infinitely rewarded in the relationship.

I feel infinitely rewarded in the relationship.

It's generative.

它具有生成性。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It feels generative.

感觉很有生成力。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

It doesn't have to be equal, however one wants to define equal, but it has to be mutual.

它不一定是平等的，无论如何定义平等，但它必须是相互的。

You're feeling goodness from the relationship.

You're feeling goodness from the relationship.

So is the other person.

另一个人也是如此。

Okay.

好的。

That's good.

那挺好的。

That's coming from that high generative place.

That's coming from that high generative place.

And when we really, let's say we push that concept forward to where we want to be living, not some pie in the sky, right, but agency and gratitude as verbs.

当我们真的把这个概念推向我们想要生活的地方时，不是天上掉馅饼，对吧，而是作为动词的代理和感激。

The generative drive is very strongly expressed, and the other drives are subserving the generative drive.

生成内驱力的表达非常强烈，而其他内驱力则辅助生成内驱力。

Then we get to the place where we really see it is true that it is better to give than to receive.

然后我们就真正认识到给予比接受更好。

The happiest people I see are the people who are giving.

我见过的最幸福的人是那些付出的人。

Now, of course, it feels great to receive.

Now, of course, it feels great to receive.

Right?

正确的？

But it feels better to give because there's a goodness in the self in the giving.

但给予的感觉更好，因为给予中存在着自我的善良。

And I remember seeing this as a child and being too young to understand it, but as a little kid, I liked getting things, right?

我记得小时候看过这个，当时太小了，无法理解，但作为一个小孩子，我喜欢得到东西，对吗？

And as a little kid, I liked getting things more than I liked giving.

当我还是个小孩子的时候，我更喜欢得到东西而不是给予。

That's okay when you're a little kid.

That's okay when you're a little kid.

But what I did observe is that my maternal grandmother, who is very sweet and loving and caring, she loved giving.

但我确实观察到，我的外祖母非常可爱，充满爱心和关怀，她喜欢给予。

Right?

正确的？

You give her presents, and we did.

You give her presents, and we did.

And she really liked getting presents.

And she really liked getting presents.

She loved giving.

她热爱奉献。

There was an excess of goodness.

There was an excess of goodness.

And then as I got older and I learned more like who she had been in the community and how she had been to people, and I could see, and now through the lens, that there was such goodness in her.

然后，随着年龄的增长，我更多地了解了她在社区中的身份以及她对人们的态度，现在通过镜头，我可以看到她身上有如此善良的一面。

I think for me, she's the shining model of goodness that I internalize as I aspire to be better.

我认为对我来说，她是善良的光辉典范，当我渴望变得更好时，我将她内化。

So then I think I want to be like that.

So then I think I want to be like that.

I am more generative as I try and think more about giving than receiving.

当我尝试更多地考虑给予而不是接受时，我变得更有创造力。

I'm not trying to say I'm some noble person or I'm being ascetic.

我并不是想说我是一个高尚的人或者我是一个苦行僧。

I'm thinking that's a good way for us all to feel.

我认为这对我们所有人来说都是一种很好的感受方式。

Or someone, a very, very successful person that I consult with who's in my life, who talked about how he always makes inside of himself the best understanding of what's going on between him and another person, whether it's a very big financial deal, or it's about power, or it's personal, and then gives a little bit, always.

或者是一个非常非常成功的人，我在生活中咨询过他，他谈到他总是让自己内心对他和另一个人之间发生的事情有最好的理解，无论是一笔非常大的财务交易，或者是关于权力的，或者是个人的，然后总是给予一点点。

Where have we ended up?

我们最终到了什么地方？

Let me give a little bit.

Let me give a little bit.

And there's a person who's very, very successful, very, very happy.

有一个人非常非常成功，非常非常快乐。

But yet I would argue the goodness in him is why he's successful and happy.

但我认为他的善良是他成功和快乐的原因。

It's not that he's successful and therefore he's happy.

并不是因为他成功了，所以他才快乐。

It's what's inside of him that fosters both of those good things, and he could be just as happy without the big success.

正是他的内心孕育了这两种美好的事物，即使没有巨大的成功，他也可以同样快乐。

Maybe he wasn't minded to do that, and he grows a nice garden.

也许他不想这么做，但他种了一个漂亮的花园。

He could be equally happy.

He could be equally happy.

But the point is the goodness in self to be able to do that, to feel good about doing that.

但关键是自我的善良能够做到这一点，并为此感到高兴。

I feel better about giving that than I would have at receiving that.

给予我的感觉比接受时感觉更好。

That's pretty stark.

这太明显了。

It's something given to the other that I would have gotten right now, and we're in maybe a negotiation.

这是我现在就可以得到的东西，我们可能正在谈判。

To give it feels better than to have it.

To give it feels better than to have it.

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm sure there are many people thinking about individuals who are highly successful, who are not givers, who are-

我确信有很多人会想到那些非常成功的人，他们不是付出者，他们是——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

takers.

接受者。

I do think those examples of takers, as I'm calling them, grab a lot of attention.

我确实认为那些我所说的“接受者”的例子引起了很多关注。

But I know, at least within science and the other domains of life I've been in, that there are far more successful people who are also givers, even to a great extent.

但我知道，至少在科学和我所从事的生活的其他领域，有更多的成功人士同时也是付出者，甚至在很大程度上也是如此。

And of course, that doesn't mean that they're giving to the point of an inability to give further or to take care of themselves.

当然，这并不意味着他们的付出已经达到无法进一步付出或无法照顾自己的程度。

The giving is part of taking care of themselves, but it's part of this generative cycle.

给予是照顾自己的一部分，也是这个生殖循环的一部分。

It's not one thing.

这不是一回事。

It's not a tit for tat.

这不是针锋相对。

It's part of something that makes them feel good, makes others feel good.

这是让他们感觉良好、让别人感觉良好的事情的一部分。

It's sort of anti-transactional.

这有点反交易。

And as we're talking about the self and interrelations between selves in these different relationship contexts today, this word transactional keeps coming to mind.

当我们今天在这些不同的关系环境中谈论自我和自我之间的相互关系时，“交易”这个词不断浮现在脑海中。

And what I'm so aware of as you're describing what healthy selves and healthy relationships look like is that it runs counter to pretty much everything that I've heard and that we hear in the world about relationships and about the relationship to self, meaning it's not transactional.

当你描述健康的自我和健康的关系是什么样子时，我非常清楚的是，它与我所听到的以及我们在世界上听到的关于关系和与自我的关系的几乎所有内容背道而驰，这意味着它不是交易性的。

It's really about a cycle.

这确实是一个循环。

And we're using this word generative over and over in its specific context today, so I don't want to rob that-

今天我们在特定的上下文中一遍又一遍地使用生成这个词，所以我不想剥夺它——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

word for a different purpose.

word for a different purpose.

But I'm imagining a sort of upward spiral in my mind, or perhaps something that's really like a circle of life that just keeps growing bigger and bigger and bigger.

但我在脑海中想象着一种螺旋式上升，或者可能真的像一个不断变得越来越大的生命圈。

Maybe we could talk a little bit about this notion of relationships being transactional.

也许我们可以谈谈这种关系的交易概念。

It's such a loaded word.

这是一个如此负载的词。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But I have a close friend who's married with more than a few children who told me the other day, "I realized that it's all kind of transactional.

但我有一个亲密的朋友，他已婚，有多个孩子，有一天他告诉我，“我意识到这都是交易性的。

They're extracting from me, and I'm extracting from them, and it's benevolent because it's all good." And I thought, wow, this is really dreadful.

他们从我身上榨取，我也从他们那里榨取，这是仁慈的，因为这都是好的。”我想，哇，这真的太可怕了。

No one wants to think that the closest relationships in their lives are transactional.

没有人愿意认为他们生活中最亲密的关系是交易性的。

And he was coming to that conclusion.

他正在得出这个结论。

I disagreed with him, and I don't know where that all sits for him right now, but maybe we could talk about the transactional versus non-transactional aspects of relationship.

我不同意他的观点，我不知道他现在的情况如何，但也许我们可以谈谈关系的交易与非交易方面。

Because we all want things.

因为我们都想要东西。

That's perfectly healthy, I believe.

我相信那是完全健康的。

We all experience disappointment, and pleasure, and relief, and sometimes major disappointment, pleasure, relief, et cetera.

我们都会经历失望、快乐和解脱，有时甚至会经历严重的失望、快乐、解脱等等。

But what is the role of transaction in relationships?

但交易在关系中扮演什么角色呢？

And how does psychiatry, how do you, and how should we think about that?

精神病学如何，你如何，我们应该如何思考这个问题？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Well, we often get confused because there are transactions in every relationship.

嗯，我们经常感到困惑，因为每种关系中都存在交易。

But that does not mean that every relationship is transactional.

但这并不意味着每一种关系都是交易性的。

So if we think about what transactions are, we can think of the stereotypical way.

因此，如果我们思考什么是交易，我们可以想到刻板的方式。

So it can also be like, here's the transaction.

所以它也可以是这样的，这就是交易。

I'll do the dishes and you wash the clothes.

我洗碗，你洗衣服。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Or for instance, I'll make the money and the other person will raise the children.

或者打个比方，我赚钱，别人养孩子。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

So there are transactions.

于是就有了交易。

But that does not mean that the be all and end all of it are sort of hard-hearted, calculated transactions.

但这并不意味着这一切都是冷酷无情、经过深思熟虑的交易。

And transactions also occur in less obvious but equally important ways.

交易也以不太明显但同样重要的方式发生。

So another way that transactions occur is, so right now, I'm putting something out there.

因此，交易发生的另一种方式是，现在，我正在把一些东西放在那里。

So I'm saying something.

所以我要说的是。

And then at a point, I stop, and I'm waiting for you to put something out there, and then I take in what you said.

然后在某一时刻，我停下来，等待你把一些东西放在那里，然后我接受你所说的。

And we're doing something that, in that sense, is transactional.

从这个意义上说，我们正在做一些交易性的事情。

I'm waiting for you to give me something.

我在等你给我一些东西。

I take it in, I process it, I give something back out to you.

我接受它，我处理它，我把一些东西回馈给你。

But that's not the be all and end all of it.

但这还不是全部。

So there are transactions, whether it's the who's going to wash the dishes, who's going to do the clothes, or it's what do I put out there that you take in and what do you put out there that I take in?

因此，存在交易，无论是谁来洗碗，谁来洗衣服，或者是我放在那里的东西你拿走，你放在那里的东西我拿走？

That there is something greater than, something beyond the transactional.

存在着比交易更伟大的东西。

And there is some controversy to this, a thought that there really are, a historical thought in the field, that there are just aggressive and pleasure drives in us, and that everything is transactional.

对此存在一些争议，这种观点确实存在，该领域的历史观点认为，我们体内只有攻击性和享乐性的驱动力，一切都是交易性的。

Now, again, we don't really have a way of disproving that.

现在，我们又没有办法反驳这一点。

There's not going to be some equation that disproves that But I think it's entirely disproven by human experience, and there's so many.

不会有任何方程式可以反驳这一点，但我认为人类的经验完全反驳了这一点，而且有很多。

We could talk about an infinite number of resources to consider this, but just imagine the writings of Victor Frankl, and the writings and the theories around human interactions and psychological theories that have come of it.

我们可以谈论无数的资源来考虑这个问题，但想象一下维克多·弗兰克尔的著作，以及由此产生的围绕人类互动和心理学理论的著作和理论。

To think that everything is just transactional, it's a denial of the humanness in all of us that I think he just brought to the fore so strongly.

认为一切都只是交易性的，这是对我们所有人人性的否定，我认为他如此强烈地凸显了人性。

But again, there could be nearly infinite resources throughout human history that say, "Hey, we're not entirely transactional.

但同样，人类历史上可能有近乎无限的资源说：“嘿，我们并不完全是交易性的。

It's not just aggression and pleasure, but there's something more going on here." There's learning that feels good for the sake of learning.

这不仅仅是攻击性和愉悦感，还有更多的东西在这里发生。”有些学习是为了学习而感觉良好的。

There's kindness that feels good for the sake of kindness.

有一种为了仁慈而感觉良好的仁慈。

There's giving that feels good because giving feels good.

给予的感觉很好，因为给予的感觉很好。

This is going on in us.

这正在我们身上发生。

It's going on when we're loving children, for example, or loving animals.

例如，当我们爱孩子或爱动物时，就会发生这种情况。

There's something inside of us that's not just transactional, and that's why I think what we're talking about is if it's truth, it should all hang together.

我们内心深处的某些东西不仅仅是交易性的，这就是为什么我认为我们所谈论的是，如果这是事实，那么它们就应该联系在一起。

Right?

正确的？

It must all hang together, and this is why there's an us over top of each individual that's in a relationship.

所有这些都必须紧密结合在一起，这就是为什么在一段关系中，每个人之上都有一个“我们”。

Right?

正确的？

This is why you can know everything about me, you can know everything about you, and you can know nothing about our friendship.

这就是为什么你可以了解我的一切，你可以了解你的一切，而你可以对我们的友谊一无所知。

Right?

正确的？

Absolutely nothing.

绝对没有。

Right?

正确的？

Because it's something different.

因为它是不同的东西。

Right?

正确的？

And if it were all just transactional, there would be nothing different.

如果这一切都只是交易，那就没有什么不同了。

Right?

正确的？

And I think our experience as human beings, I know that to be true because I just know that I don't always feel selfish about things.

我认为我们作为人类的经历，我知道这是真的，因为我知道我并不总是对事物感到自私。

Right?

正确的？

Maybe sometimes I do, and I do something nice because it'll make me look good, like, okay, we're all human.

也许有时我会这样做，而且我会做一些好事，因为这会让我看起来很好，就像，好吧，我们都是人。

Right?

正确的？

But I know that there's good feeling from others towards me at times that's just about the good feeling.

但我知道有时别人对我的好感只是好感而已。

I know that there's that from me towards others.

我知道我对其他人也是如此。

So that tells us, yes, there is something other than just the I.

所以这告诉我们，是的，除了“我”之外还有其他东西。

There is the we of dyads.

这是我们的二人组。

Right?

正确的？

Of relationships, no matter whether they're work, family, friendship, relationship, and then there are the levels beyond that that are larger we's.

人际关系，无论是工作、家庭、友谊、人际关系，还有比我们更大的层次。

Right?

正确的？

The we of groups.

团体中的我们。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So if I understand correctly, it can be the case that one person makes the majority or all of the income for a family, the other person raises the children, takes care of the majority of the home, and of course, there is a transaction there, a set of transactions, but that it's in service to something larger that really isn't transactional.

因此，如果我理解正确的话，情况可能是一个人为家庭赚取大部分或全部收入，另一个人抚养孩子，照顾家庭的大部分，当然，那里有一项交易，一组交易，但它是为更大的、实际上不是交易的事情服务的。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm just stealing your words here, but if I were to expand on that, just to make sure I understand, that the non-transactional thing that emerges from that is generative because it's a family.

我只是在这里盗用你的话，但如果我要扩展这一点，只是为了确保我理解，由此产生的非交易性事物是具有生成性的，因为它是一个家庭。

Right?

正确的？

It's a family that everyone-

这是一个家庭，每个人——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

can extract growth and pleasure and meaning from.

可以从中提取成长、快乐和意义。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And just because the roles are divided as such, it doesn't necessarily mean that the relationship is defined as transactional in the sense that it's less than it could be.

仅仅因为角色如此划分，并不一定意味着这种关系被定义为事务性的，因为它比应有的要少。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

If you think about what's really being transacted, so say one person is out in the world and is making an income.

如果您考虑一下实际交易的内容，那么假设一个人在外面的世界中正在赚取收入。

The other person is, say, taking care of the family and taking care of the home.

另一个人，比如说，照顾家人，打理家。

What's being transacted?

正在交易什么？

Well, the person who's making the money is sharing the money.

好吧，赚钱的人正在分享钱。

Right?

正确的？

Is in that sense, transacting some of the money to the other person.

从这个意义上说，就是将一些钱交易给另一个人。

You get to have some of it, too.

你也可以拥有一些。

You get to have some of the benefit from it.

您可以从中获得一些好处。

And the person who is at home who's taking care of the family and the home is saying, "You get to have some of that, too." Right?

在家照顾家人和家庭的人会说：“你也可以拥有一些。”正确的？

The children are taken care of.

孩子们得到照顾。

Right?

正确的？

The home is taken care of.

家里有人照顾。

So both are transacting something to the other.

所以双方都在与对方进行交易。

Right?

正确的？

That's the truth of it.

这就是事实。

Right?

正确的？

If you look at what's really going on there, one person's getting benefit of money they didn't earn, the other person's getting benefits they have childcare they didn't do or pay for.

如果你看看那里到底发生了什么，一个人从他们没有赚到的钱中得到好处，另一个人却得到了他们没有做或没有支付的托儿服务的好处。

Right?

正确的？

They're not paying for childcare, they're sharing resources.

他们不支付托儿费用，而是共享资源。

Right?

正确的？

So yes, that's true.

所以是的，确实如此。

But is that it?

但就是这样吗？

Are these two robots?

这是两个机器人吗？

Right?

正确的？

One is the money-making robot, and the other is the childcare robot.

一种是赚钱机器人，一种是育儿机器人。

That's not what's going on.

事实并非如此。

Right?

正确的？

The way we want to envision that, if we have two healthy people with generative drives, is they love one another.

我们想要设想的是，如果我们有两个具有生成动力的健康人，他们就会彼此相爱。

They're creating something better than they could create on their own.

他们正在创造比他们自己创造的更好的东西。

In fact, they've created children.

事实上，他们创造了孩子。

Right?

正确的？

They've created a home together, and they're nurturing that family together.

他们共同创建了一个家，并共同培育这个家庭。

That is generative, and because it's generative, it can also be flexible.

这是生成性的，因为它是生成性的，所以它也可以是灵活的。

So let's say the person who's at home says, "I need to do some things outside of the house." Right?

假设在家的人说：“我需要在屋外做一些事情。”正确的？

Or let's say the person who's out working thinks, "Oh, I feel overwhelmed, and I'd like to switch to a better job, but that job's half-time, but I could be half in the house." Right?

或者，假设外出工作的人想：“哦，我感到不知所措，我想换一份更好的工作，但那份工作是一半时间，但我可以一半时间在家里。”正确的？

This is where people can come together, right, in the same way we talked about the two and an eight on the sex drive or sexuality scale, where people then can find compromises.

这是人们可以聚集在一起的地方，对吧，就像我们谈论性欲或性行为量表上的“二”和“八”一样，人们可以在那里找到妥协。

Right?

正确的？

And if one really wants to stay out of the home all the time, but the person in the home wants to leave the home, well, they find a way that that works.

如果一个人真的想一直呆在家里，但家里的人想离开家，那么他们会找到一种有效的方法。

Right?

正确的？

Because their care for one another, the generative spirit that is in them individually and as a couple, lets them nurture that.

因为他们彼此关心，他们个人和夫妻之间的创造精神让他们能够培养这一点。

And one isn't interested in oppressing the other.

一方对压迫另一方不感兴趣。

"I'm not going to leave my job.

“我不会离开我的工作。

You stay at home," or, "I'm staying at home.

你呆在家里，”或者，“我呆在家里。

You stay out there." It's like, okay, let's think about things.

你就呆在外面吧。”就像，好吧，让我们考虑一下事情。

Let's communicate, right?

我们交流一下吧？

That's how the generative drive not only makes that awesome.

这就是生成驱动力不仅让一切变得很棒的原因。

Right?

正确的？

The five isn't the compromised position between the eight and the two.

五号位并不是八号位和二号位之间的折衷位置。

The five is awesome.

五人太棒了

Right?

正确的？

Here, the transactional aspects are awesome because of the generative aspects of what comes of it far more than either of those people could make on their own.

在这里，交易方面非常棒，因为它所产生的成果远远超过了这些人自己所能创造的。

One would say it's not so obvious.

有人会说这不是那么明显。

Maybe if one makes X amount of dollars, each could make half X.

也许如果一个人赚了 X 美元，那么每个人都可以赚到一半 X。

That's not what we're talking about.

这不是我们要讨论的。

Neither of them can create that family on their own.

他们俩都无法独自创建这个家庭。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It seems that so much of what we're talking about relies on the hallmarks that we always hear make up good relationships of all kinds, romantic and otherwise.

看来我们所谈论的大部分内容都依赖于我们经常听到的构成各种良好关系的标志，无论是浪漫的还是其他的。

Things like communication, listening, generosity, all the stuff that we all know that we should bring to relationship, and hopefully are getting from relationships, and that if we're not, that we should probably request from others in polite ways.

诸如沟通、倾听、慷慨之类的东西，我们都知道我们应该把这些东西带入关系，并希望从关系中得到，如果我们没有，我们可能应该以礼貌的方式向别人请求。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

I have one word for that.

我有一个词可以形容这一点。

...

...

kindergarten.

幼儿园。

Think about that.

想想看。

We learned that in kindergarten.

我们在幼儿园就学到了这一点。

What you're describing is so simple.

你描述的情况很简单。

That's why it's so high up on the-- This is what the geyser is pushing up, is high up from the two pillars.

这就是为什么它如此之高——这就是间歇泉所推动的，从两根柱子的高处。

Because what you're talking about is simple.

因为你说的事情很简单。

Generosity of spirit, giving rather than taking.

慷慨的精神，给予而不是索取。

Being kind to others, letting things go, feeling good about yourself even if you fall down.

善待他人，放下一切，即使跌倒了也能自我感觉良好。

We learned this in kindergarten, so we must somewhere inside of us really value it.

我们在幼儿园就学到了这一点，所以我们内心深处必须真正重视它。

But then we let it go.

但后来我们就放手了。

We make things overly complex.

我们让事情变得过于复杂。

And this idea that in many ways we should go back to kindergarten.

从很多方面来说，我们应该回到幼儿园。

Because there's a purity there.

因为那里有一种纯粹。

Children at an age where they can learn, and then we bring a nice kind of learning to them and a nurturing to them, and we can bring it to ourselves too, so that we simplify that which has become overly complex.

孩子到了可以学习的年龄，然后我们给他们带来一种很好的学习和养育，我们也可以把它带给我们自己，这样我们就可以简化已经变得过于复杂的事情。

We simplify because trauma makes complexity.

我们简化，因为创伤使复杂化。

Having to just make one's way in the world i-is complicated.

必须在这个世界上闯出一条路——这很复杂。

So things get more and more complicated, and we lose the simple roots of goodness or the goodness of simplicity.

所以事情变得越来越复杂，我们失去了善的简单根源或简单的善。

And we can come back to that.

我们可以回到这一点。

So I couldn't resist when you said, "Oh, these are kind of simple, these basic things." That's the point of it, because that's where agency and gratitude and the generative drive, that's where they live in the simplicity.

所以当你说“哦，这些都很简单，这些基本的东西”时，我无法抗拒。这就是重点，因为这就是代理、感恩和生成动力的所在，这就是他们生活在简单中的所在。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm glad you mentioned kindergarten.

我很高兴你提到幼儿园。

It brought me back to images of kindergarten where, as far as I can remember now, there were all the critical components of a great generative environment.

它让我回想起幼儿园的景象，据我现在的记忆，那里拥有一个伟大的生成环境的所有关键组成部分。

Adults who really cared about us.

真正关心我们的成年人。

Fortunately, there were snack time with oranges, so nourishing food.

幸好有吃橙子的点心时间，所以营养丰富。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There was nap time in the afternoon.

下午有午睡时间。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

These things are all things that I think-

这些都是我想的事情——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

You got some exercise, explored.

你进行了一些锻炼，进行了探索。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, you could take a guinea pig home on the weekends.

是的，周末你可以带一只豚鼠回家。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They had this guinea pig.

他们有这只豚鼠。

I think there were several guinea pigs, but they kept trying to convince us it was the same guinea pig.

我认为有几只豚鼠，但他们一直试图让我们相信这是同一只豚鼠。

Because they would allow one family to take home the guinea pig each weekend, and sometimes I think it didn't work out quite so well.

因为他们每个周末都会允许一个家庭把豚鼠带回家，有时我觉得效果不太好。

But anyway, the guinea pig was a pervasive feature, so you learn to take care of things.

但无论如何，豚鼠是一个普遍的特征，所以你要学会照顾事情。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And in all seriousness, now that I step back from it, there's nothing more generative, it seems, than a kindergarten classroom environment.

说实话，现在我退一步来说，似乎没有什么比幼儿园的教室环境更能产生创造力了。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Or we should say a healthy kindergarten classroom environment.

或者应该说健康的幼儿园课堂环境。

It's all about support of others and if we go to the pillars, the structure of self and the function of self, surely there's a lot going on at home too.

这一切都与他人的支持有关，如果我们关注支柱、自我结构和自我功能，那么家里肯定也有很多事情发生。

But think about what's salient.

但想一想什么是最重要的。

It's learning messages of self-confidence, instilling those.

它正在学习自信的信息，并灌输这些信息。

It's behaviors that are based on strivings and hopefulness.

这是基于努力和希望的行为。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's all the good things.

这都是好事。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

All the good things.

所有美好的事物。

And so, as I was thinking about communication and all these good things that clearly kindergarten is a wonderful template for, in all seriousness, I think it's an amazing template.

因此，当我思考沟通和所有这些美好的事情时，幼儿园显然是一个很棒的模板，严肃地说，我认为这是一个了不起的模板。

I'm thinking about what gets in the way.

我在想是什么阻碍了我。

And of course, trauma can get in the way, and we should talk about that more.

当然，创伤可能会成为障碍，我们应该更多地谈论这一点。

But it seems to me that one of the things that gets in the way of asking for what we want, of hearing requests of us in the way that is going to bring about the most generative goodness is anxiety.

但在我看来，焦虑是阻碍我们寻求我们想要的东西、阻碍我们以最有生产力的方式聆听我们请求的因素之一。

It's like you're tired from a long day, and someone mentions, "We have to take the trash out." You're like, "Ugh.

就好像你一整天都累了，有人提到：“我们必须把垃圾倒掉。”你就像，“呃。

I was at work all day."

我一整天都在工作。”

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That kind of thing.

那种事。

Or earlier, talking about the issue of the non-issue in terms of power dynamics.

或者更早的时候，谈论权力动态方面的非问题的问题。

That, well, let's just say I've had the experience before in relationship of feeling like if I make a request or I have a quote unquote "complaint" about something, that the other person is going to be so upset about the fact that they didn't do something well, that it's going to be three days of just diminished happiness for everybody.

那，好吧，让我们这么说吧，我以前在人际关系中就有过这样的经历，感觉如果我对某件事提出要求或提出“抱怨”，对方会因为他们没有做好某件事而感到非常沮丧，这将是每个人幸福感下降的三天。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So I just assume not deal with it, right?

所以我只是假设不处理它，对吧？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So when we hear the word anxiety, I think we often think about the person quaking about public speaking or getting the circuits in their brain hijacked that were only designed for saber-toothed tigers.

因此，当我们听到“焦虑”这个词时，我想我们经常会想到那些因公开演讲而颤抖的人，或者他们大脑中专门为剑齿虎设计的电路被劫持的人。

But anxiety seems to serve both a very important functional role in modern life that has nothing to do with physical threat.

但焦虑似乎在现代生活中发挥着非常重要的功能作用，与身体威胁无关。

But it also seems to be the feature that if not kept in check, if we can't regulate our own anxiety, I'm realizing there's no way that we're going to be in a position to ask for what we need and what we want.

但这似乎还有一个特点，如果不加以控制，如果我们无法调节自己的焦虑，我意识到我们将无法提出我们需要的东西和我们想要的东西。

To hear what's needed of us and what others want.

倾听我们需要什么以及其他人想要什么。

In other words, anxiety seems like a major barrier to the generative drive.

换句话说，焦虑似乎是生成动力的主要障碍。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

I think the place to start is if you show me a person who has no anxiety, I'll show you a mannequin.

我认为开始的地方是，如果你向我展示一个没有焦虑的人，我会给你展示一个人体模型。

We all have anxiety in us.

我们内心都有焦虑。

Remember, it's just a word.

请记住，这只是一个词。

What are we getting at?

我们要表达什么？

We're getting at a sense of tension, or a sense of disquiet inside of us that we would like to solve, we would like to ease if we could.

我们内心感到一种紧张感，或者一种不安感，我们想要解决它，如果可以的话，我们希望放松下来。

It is not helpful or healthy if we have very, very low levels of that.

如果我们的水平非常非常低，那就没有帮助，也不健康。

Because then our strivings are certainly going to suffer.

因为那样我们的努力肯定会受到影响。

There's not a lot of motivation to go make change in the world, a change in our lives.

没有太多动力去改变世界、改变我们的生活。

So if we have too little of that tension, that doesn't go well, and that maps to a low assertiveness.

因此，如果我们的紧张感太少，那就不会顺利，这会导致自信度较低。

Aggression and proactive drive is, there are other ways that could show itself, but it maps very clearly, I think, to that, and that's not good for us.

侵略性和主动性是，还有其他方式可以表现出来，但我认为它非常清楚地映射到这一点，这对我们不利。

On the other end of the spectrum, we're much more concerned with the other end of the spectrum because a lot of anxiety feels very, very bad, and it feels very bad right now.

在频谱的另一端，我们更关心频谱的另一端，因为很多焦虑感觉非常非常糟糕，而且现在感觉非常糟糕。

So our high levels of anxiety, they narrow our cognitive spectrum.

因此，我们的高度焦虑会缩小我们的认知范围。

They narrow our ability to think about what's going on around us, to think about ourselves.

它们限制了我们思考周围发生的事情、思考我们自己的能力。

So the idea with anxiety is to recognize, hey, we all have it, and we can call it anxiety, we can call it tension, we can call it whatever we want to, but we want that to be in a healthy place.

因此，焦虑的想法是要认识到，嘿，我们都有它，我们可以称之为焦虑，我们可以称之为紧张，我们可以称之为任何我们想要的东西，但我们希望它处于一个健康的地方。

Which comes, of course, back to the self.

当然，这又回到了自我。

That if my levels of anxiety are very high And therefore, it's causing problems in my relationship.

如果我的焦虑程度非常高，就会给我的人际关系带来问题。

Maybe I'm always asking my partner if we're okay.

也许我总是问我的伴侣我们是否还好。

That happens a lot.

这种情况经常发生。

Like, "Are we okay?

就像，“我们还好吗？

Are you happy?" Because there's a lot of anxiety in me.

你高兴吗？”因为我内心有很多焦虑。

The first place to go is to look at myself so we could say, "Oh, I have attachment insecurity." That's just stating the obvious, right?

第一个要做的就是审视自己，这样我们就可以说：“哦，我有执着不安全感。”这只是说明了显而易见的事情，对吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Or, sorry to interrupt, but a very common one nowadays that I think is new in the course of human history is the tugging the line phenomenon.

或者，抱歉打扰一下，但我认为当今人类历史进程中一种非常常见的现象是拉线现象。

You text somebody-

你给某人发短信-

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

because you're thinking about them, you don't hear back, and then tension starts to mount.

因为你正在想着他们，但你没有收到回复，然后紧张感开始加剧。

And then depending on the context, you may either be concerned about the person or even suspicious about what the person is up to.

然后根据具体情况，你可能会担心这个人，甚至怀疑这个人在做什么。

Here it's very contextual, right?

这是非常切合实际的，对吧？

And it depends on the history of both individuals and that relationship.

这取决于个人的历史和这种关系。

But then the person will reach back eventually, and it either will bring relief or relief with some resent.

但最终这个人会回过头来，这要么会带来解脱，要么会带来一些怨恨。

Like, "Where were you?

就像，“你在哪里？

What happened?" This is very, very common.

发生什么事了？”这是非常非常常见的。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So much so, in fact, that I've come to learn in talking to others, and this is the classic, "I have a friend who," but really others who are in the landscape of looking for a relationship, and there are people I know well who go through a lot of effort to set an intermittent schedule of response, like to not give the other person the sense that they always respond with short latency because indeed sometimes they will be able to do that and sometimes they won't.

事实上，我已经在与他人交谈中学会了这一点，这是经典的“我有一个朋友”，但实际上其他人也在寻找关系，而且我认识的一些人花了很多努力来设定间歇性的响应时间表，不喜欢给对方一种他们总是以短延迟响应的感觉，因为实际上有时他们能够做到这一点，有时却不能。

What they're basically trying to do is make sure that the person doesn't-- They're actually trying to take care of the other person in addition to themselves, because I think we come to expect a certain latency of response with certain individuals, and if we don't hear back with that-

他们基本上想做的是确保这个人不会——他们实际上是在努力照顾自己之外的另一个人，因为我认为我们预计某些人会有一定的反应延迟，如果我们没有收到回复——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

particular latency of response-

特定的响应延迟-

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

our own anxiety starts to pick up, and it can be quite damaging to a relationship, in particular to the generative drives within us because in that time that we're stressed, we're not tending to other things, including things that we could do for the relationship that we're so worried about.

我们自己的焦虑开始加剧，这可能对一段关系造成相当大的损害，特别是对我们内心的生成动力来说，因为在我们有压力的时候，我们不会去做其他事情，包括我们可以为我们非常担心的关系做的事情。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

It's like the famous scene in "Swingers," where the person leaves a message and lives the whole relationship in his own mind and breaks up with the person, and they never actually spoke.

就像《浪荡公子》中著名的场景一样，当事人留下一条信息，把整个关系都活在自己的脑海里，然后与对方分手，而他们从未真正说过话。

There's the anxiety run wild and of course, I remember that was very popular when that came out.

焦虑情绪疯狂蔓延，当然，我记得它问世时非常受欢迎。

Why?

为什么？

Because it resonated with the insecurities we feel, and now with the ability to feel those insecurities in a much more immediate way.

因为它与我们感受到的不安全感产生了共鸣，并且现在能够以更直接的方式感受到这些不安全感。

That person didn't text me back.

那个人没有给我回短信。

There's a lot more of that inside of us, which really points to if you're able to identify that you're anxious, too anxious for comfort.

我们内心还有很多这样的事情，这确实表明你是否能够识别出自己感到焦虑，过于焦虑而无法获得安慰。

Which again, if one looks inside or even listens maybe to what others have said or reflected, there's a lot of data, especially introspection, to be able to identify that.

再说一次，如果一个人审视内心，甚至听听其他人的言论或反映，就会有大量的数据，尤其是内省数据，能够识别这一点。

The next question is always why?

下一个问题总是为什么？

Let's go look at that.

我们去看看吧。

Maybe that person's been anxious their whole life.

也许那个人一生都在焦虑之中。

Maybe they just have run tense all the time.

也许他们只是一直处于紧张状态。

Sometimes a little bit of medicine that kind of just pulls that down.

有时，一点点药物就能解决这个问题。

Person can take that for 50 years, life is better, there's no side effects.

人可以服用50年，生活更好，没有副作用。

So sometimes that might be the case.

所以有时可能会出现这种情况。

Sometimes the person's anxiety kind of grew throughout childhood, and maybe that's because there were difficult things or traumatic things that happened.

有时，一个人的焦虑在整个童年时期都会增加，这可能是因为发生了困难的事情或创伤性的事情。

Maybe there was nothing like that, but maybe the person was very good at engaging in the world and then felt more and more pressures upon themselves, and no one ever did anything wrong, and they've only been rewarded.

也许并没有什么，但也许这个人很擅长融入这个世界，然后自己感受到的压力越来越大，而没有人做错任何事，他们只是得到了回报。

But regardless, look at the anxiety in yourself.

但无论如何，看看你自己的焦虑。

Go back to those pillars.

回到那些支柱。

And one might discover, for example, maybe the anxiety I'm feeling is attributable to the other person.

例如，人们可能会发现，也许我感到的焦虑是由另一个人造成的。

Am I feeling anxious because I'm intimidated?

我是否因为害怕而感到焦虑？

Am I feeling anxious because I know that if I don't behave in a certain way, the next time there's a group meeting, there'll be some snarky joke made about me?

我是否感到焦虑，因为我知道如果我不以某种方式行事，下次小组会议时，就会有人拿我开玩笑？

So anxiety, sometimes it's the self.

所以焦虑，有时候是自己的原因。

Sometimes it's got a lot of biological components.

有时它含有很多生物成分。

Sometimes it's got a lot of psychological components.

有时它有很多心理成分。

Sometimes both.

有时两者兼而有之。

Sometimes it's the environment, sometimes it's the other person.

有时候是环境，有时候是别人。

So look at why, because that's how we learn.

所以看看为什么，因为这就是我们学习的方式。

What is going on inside of me?

我内心发生了什么？

Where is that level of anxiety?

这种焦虑程度在哪里？

How does it not feel comfortable?

怎么感觉不舒服呢？

What actually is it?

到底是什么？

How is it changing how I'm behaving?

它如何改变我的行为方式？

How might it be changing?

它可能会发生怎样的变化？

How am I responding to it?

我对此有何反应？

So what are we doing?

那么我们在做什么呢？

We're going back to this look in those 10 cabinets and figure out why, which we can do.

我们将回顾这 10 个橱柜的外观并找出原因，这是我们可以做到的。

The vast majority of times between ourselves and the use of others, either professionally or non-professionally, we can go understand the anxiety or the lack of anxiety.

绝大多数时候，在我们自己和他人的使用之间，无论是专业的还是非专业的，我们都可以去理解焦虑或缺乏焦虑。

Why am I not so motivated?

为什么我没有那么积极呢？

That's the case with a lot of people who feel demoralized.

这是很多人感到士气低落的情况。

They don't feel they can get anywhere in the world.

他们觉得自己无法到达世界任何地方。

The world's a bad place, and how are you going to make your way in the world?

这个世界是一个糟糕的地方，你要如何在这个世界上生存？

And they start feeling nihilistic, or they feel like the eight ball is against them, even in a generational capacity.

他们开始感到虚无主义，或者他们觉得八号球对他们不利，即使是在一代人的能力中。

And now they feel demoralized, and the tension inside is soothed by things.

而现在他们感到士气低落，内心的紧张感也被事情缓解了。

So maybe that's the person who's overusing the thing that soothes.

所以也许这个人过度使用了舒缓的东西。

So they could go look at, "Hey, I was kind of motivated and did well in sports or did well in this, was interested in that." What's going on?

所以他们可以看看，“嘿，我很有动力，在体育方面做得很好，或者在这方面做得很好，对此很感兴趣。”这是怎么回事？

That's how a person could identify, for example, being demoralized.

例如，这就是一个人如何识别士气低落的情况。

So that process of inquiry gives us the information that we can use in the service of change.

因此，探究过程为我们提供了可以用于变革服务的信息。

And the change, while not achieved 100% of the time, the change for the better is predictable if it's arising from a place of understanding.

虽然这种改变并不是 100% 成功，但如果它是从一个理解的地方产生的，那么向好的改变是可以预见的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm very curious about frames of mind in relationship.

我对人际关系中的心态很好奇。

In particular, how being in our own experience, say anxious because someone hasn't responded to us, and really paying attention to the anxiety and drilling into it and asking ourselves, "Why am I anxious?" and, "Do I deserve to be anxious?

特别是，根据我们自己的经验，如何说因为有人没有回应我们而感到焦虑，并真正关注焦虑并钻研它并问自己：“我为什么焦虑？”并且，“我值得焦虑吗？

Is it about me or is it about them?" Whether or not that's a valid pursuit or whether or not focusing on the other person and trying to imagine what's going on in their head that they might be doing this or that they seem to do-

是关于我还是关于他们？”无论这是否是一个有效的追求，或者是否专注于对方并试图想象他们的头脑中正在发生什么，他们可能会这样做或他们似乎会这样做-

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Absolutely

绝对

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

something repeatedly.

重复某事。

This, of course, relates to much more than just the scenario of waiting for a text message and feeling anxious.

当然，这不仅仅涉及等待短信和感到焦虑的情况。

I think so much of how we come into relationships of all kinds, romantic certainly, but family relationships are in and around the tendency to switch back and forth sometimes seemingly at random between our own experience and what am I feeling, what am I experiencing, and then thinking about the other.

我思考了很多我们如何进入各种关系，当然是浪漫的关系，但家庭关系存在着一种倾向，有时看似随机地在我们自己的经历和我的感受、我正在经历什么、然后思考对方之间来回切换。

What are they thinking?

他们在想什么？

What are they experiencing?

他们正在经历什么？

This is everything to do with human dynamics.

这一切都与人类动力学有关。

I would think that it's near impossible for the typical person to just live life through their own frame and lens and never pay attention at all to what others might be thinking.

我认为对于普通人来说，仅仅通过自己的框架和镜头来生活而从不关注别人的想法几乎是不可能的。

Even, for instance, the most exploitive, extractive narcissist, sociopath presumably is thinking about who in the room is going to be their target because of how that person might be feeling.

例如，即使是最具剥削性、榨取性的自恋者、反社会者也可能会考虑房间里的谁将成为他们的目标，因为那个人可能会有什么感受。

And of course, on the benevolent side, people who want to do positive, generative things in the world are probably thinking about who to align with, who has common goals that they might want to work with or be with romantically that could help them and the other person generate.

当然，从仁慈的角度来看，那些想要在世界上做积极的、有创造力的事情的人可能会考虑与谁结盟，谁有共同的目标，他们可能想与之合作或浪漫地在一起，这可以帮助他们和对方产生创造力。

So what is this thing that we do?

那么我们做的这件事是什么呢？

What is it called and how does it work to place ourselves in the mind of others, and what roles does it serve and what goals does it undercut when we do this?

它叫什么？它是如何将我们自己置于他人心目中的？当我们这样做时，它扮演什么角色？它会削弱什么目标？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Well, so I think the first thing to say is that everything follows the same simple pattern.

嗯，所以我认为首先要说的是，一切都遵循相同的简单模式。

So I start with thinking about me.

所以我开始思考我自己。

If I'm anxious, why am I anxious?

如果我焦虑，我为什么焦虑？

What's going on inside of me?

我内心发生了什么？

Then I think about you.

然后我想你。

Are you anxious too?

你也着急吗？

Or maybe I'm not anxious, but I notice that you are.

或者也许我并不焦虑，但我注意到你很焦虑。

So there's the thought about the "I," because I can't think in a clear-headed way about you unless I've thought about me.

所以就有了关于“我”的想法，因为除非我想到了我自己，否则我无法清晰地思考你。

Because if I'm really, really, really anxious, then how am I supposed to understand and try and get an idea of where you're at?

因为如果我真的真的真的很焦虑，那么我该如何理解并尝试了解你的处境呢？

So then where do we arrive?

那么我们到达哪里呢？

We arrive at the magic bridge of the us.

我们到达了我们的魔桥。

That's what connects us, whether the us is a friendship, it's a professional relationship, it's romance.

这就是我们之间的联系，无论是友谊、职业关系还是浪漫。

There's the bridge of the us, because it's not just how or when am I anxious?

这是我们之间的桥梁，因为这不仅仅是我如何或何时焦虑？

How or when are you anxious?

您如何或何时感到焦虑？

What are things like when we're together?

当我们在一起的时候，会发生什么？

Maybe I'm anxious when we're together, and what's that tension about?

也许我们在一起的时候我会感到焦虑，那么紧张是什么呢？

Or you're anxious when we're together, and maybe that's for reasons we could talk about and make less.

或者当我们在一起时你会感到焦虑，也许这就是我们可以谈论并减少收入的原因。

Maybe there's some insecurity in one of us, or maybe the other person is behaving in a certain way that's not making the second person feel good.

也许我们中的一个人有一些不安全感，或者另一个人的某种行为方式让另一个人感觉不好。

We can then come together and see how does the us impact the level of anxiety, and how do we then take away from the us being stronger?

然后我们可以聚集在一起，看看我们如何影响焦虑水平，以及我们如何让我们变得更坚强？

So think about, we talked about the trauma bond.

所以想一想，我们谈到了创伤纽带。

Trauma bond can be enacted in a negative way, and it can be enacted in a positive way.

创伤纽带可以以消极的方式产生，也可以以积极的方式产生。

And those two people who can go to the museum together, who can't go to the museum separately, they're living in the magic bridge of the us.

而那些可以一起去博物馆，不能单独去博物馆的两个人，他们就生活在我们的魔桥里。

They're both at the museum, but neither can go to the museum.

他们都在博物馆，但谁都不能去博物馆。

Neither can go to the museum, but both can go to the museum, and then they take away stronger selves from that.

两个人都不能去博物馆，但两个人都可以去博物馆，然后他们就可以从中带走更坚强的自我。

That's a reinforcing experience.

这是一次强化的经历。

It's positive.

这是积极的。

It builds the generative drive.

它建立了生成动力。

It builds confidence.

它建立信心。

The person went, they were assertive, and that was gratified in a good way, and they felt pleasure.

人去了，他们有主见，那是一种很好的满足，他们感到高兴。

So when we look at the us, it is about the us in the moment.

因此，当我们审视“我们”时，关注的是当下的“我们”。

But it is also about how two people are impacting one another in the rest of their lives.

但这也关系到两个人在余生中如何相互影响。

And this, of course, this is more important the closer the relationship.

而这一点，当然，关系越密切这一点就越重要。

This is very important, for example, in close friendships or family relationships, and I think this is of extreme importance in relationships.

这非常重要，例如，在亲密的友谊或家庭关系中，我认为这在人际关系中极其重要。

These are the two people who presumably are the closest to one another on Earth.

这是地球上最接近的两个人。

So a shared us that promotes understanding and bolsters a sense of agency and gratitude and bolsters the generative drive, that's great for both people when they're not in the us, when one goes one way and one goes the other, because that happens all the time in relationships too.

因此，一个共同的“我们”能够促进理解、增强代理感和感激之情，并增强生成动力，这对不在我们身边的两个人来说都是很好的，当一个人走一条路，一个走另一条路时，因为这种情况在人际关系中也经常发生。

Or go to work at different places, or we bolster ourselves outside of relationships if we see what the magic bridge of the relationship can be.

或者去不同的地方工作，或者如果我们看到关系的神奇桥梁是什么，我们就会在关系之外增强自己。

So we can look there for problems.

所以我们可以在那里寻找问题。

Why am I anxious?

我为什么焦虑？

Why are you anxious?

你为什么焦虑？

Why are we anxious?

我们为什么焦虑？

Why are you only anxious when we're we and not-- We can look for all that, and we should.

为什么只有当我们是我们而不是我们的时候你才会焦虑——我们可以寻找所有这些，我们应该这样做。

But we can also, even more powerfully, look for the good there.

但我们也可以更有力地寻找那里的好处。

How can our shared bond, whatever it may be, be better for both of us?

无论是什么，我们共同的纽带如何才能对我们双方都更好？

And what stronger incentive could there be than to do that in relationships?

还有什么比在人际关系中这样做更强烈的动机呢？

Romantic relationships are the ones that are closest to us.

浪漫的关系是离我们最近的关系。

If they're not romantic, they could be friendships.

如果他们不浪漫，他们可能是朋友。

Whatever our closest relationships are, they're the most important vehicles, so to speak, to better health and happiness, to getting to that place of peace and contentment and delight.

无论我们最亲密的关系是什么，可以说，它们都是我们获得更好的健康和幸福，达到和平、满足和快乐的最重要的工具。

The us is very, very powerful.

美国非常非常强大。

In fact, even more powerful than the I and the you.

事实上，比我和你还要强大。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

When thinking about the us and trying to understand why somebody that we know and that are in relationship with is behaving the way they are or might be feeling or claiming they feel the way that they are, how useful do you think it is for us to put ourselves in their shoes?

当思考我们并试图理解为什么我们认识的人以及与我们有关系的人会有这样的行为方式，或者可能有这样的感受，或者声称他们有这样的感受时，你认为我们设身处地为他们着想有多大用处？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I can think of all sorts of ways in which this could be beneficial.

我可以想到各种可以带来好处的方法。

I can also think of all sorts of ways in which it would be focusing off the self and our own experience in ways that might be defensive avoidance or denial.

我还可以想到各种方式来关注自我和我们自己的经历，这些方式可能是防御性回避或否认。

I'll come clean.

我会坦白的。

There have been plenty of times in relationship where I get fixated on why someone is the way they are, behaved the way they did, and more often than not, by taking a step back and thinking about why my reaction to that is the way it is, I don't solve the quote unquote problem, but I get a lot further along in terms of quelling my own anxiety and finding a path forward.

在恋爱关系中，很多时候我都会关注为什么某人是这样的，为什么他们会这样做，而且更多时候，通过退一步思考为什么我对此的反应是这样的，我并没有解决引用不引用的问题，但在平息自己的焦虑和找到前进的道路方面我取得了很大的进步。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

Well, mentalization, which is the ability to discern feeling states, intention states in self and others, but now what we're looking for others.

嗯，心智化，是辨别自我和他人的感受状态、意图状态的能力，但现在我们正在寻找他人。

So the ability to understand feeling states.

所以理解感受状态的能力。

What's going on inside of you?

你内心发生了什么？

Intention.

意图。

What are your intentions?

你的意图是什么？

That should only be good.

那应该只是好的。

Right?

正确的？

Because if we're seeing it through a clear lens, meaning a lens that's not biased by some problem, like a defense mechanism of rationalization, for example, or of projection.

因为如果我们通过一个清晰的镜头来看待它，这意味着这个镜头不会因某些问题而产生偏见，例如合理化的防御机制或投射的防御机制。

If we're seeing clearly, we're learning about the other.

如果我们看得清楚，我们就能了解对方。

And the learning is never bad.

而且学习永远不会差。

Knowledge, truth is good.

知识、真理都是好的。

So if we learn about the other by, in that sense, putting ourselves in their shoes, then we gain information, but it's the health in us that is so crucial to what we do with that information.

因此，从这个意义上说，如果我们通过设身处地地为他人着想来了解他人，那么我们就会获得信息，但我们的健康状况对于我们如何处理这些信息至关重要。

So one person could, say, put themselves in the other person's shoes and they can say, "Okay, that person I can see, that person's responding, and they stay pretty calm about something." And maybe that's just a good thing.

因此，一个人可以说，设身处地为另一个人着想，他们可以说：“好吧，我可以看到那个人，那个人正在做出反应，他们对某件事保持相当冷静。”也许这只是一件好事。

Maybe there's some contention going on, and that person's maintaining their cool, and that person's going to be really helpful in navigating an argument or a disagreement to some really positive endpoint.

也许正在发生一些争论，而那个人保持着冷静，并且那个人在将争论或分歧引导到某个真正积极的终点方面会非常有帮助。

So if a person sees clearly, like, "I can see that you're calm, and I also see that you're trying to figure things out, and the things that you're saying are sort of positive.

因此，如果一个人看得很清楚，比如，“我可以看到你很平静，我也看到你正在努力解决问题，而且你所说的事情都是积极的。

You're disagreeing with me, but you don't seem to mean ill." Then I can see, you know what?

你虽然不同意我的观点，但你似乎并没有恶意。”然后我就能看到，你知道吗？

I think your calm is good.

我觉得你的冷静很好。

Because I'm getting a little bit upset, and you're not, and I see that there's a benevolence in you, so maybe you'll guide us to the place that maybe I can't.

因为我有点心烦意乱，而你却没有，而且我看到你内心有仁慈，所以也许你会引导我们到达我无法到达的地方。

But think about if there's not a clear lens inside of me.

但想想我内心是否没有一个清晰的镜头。

If I have a defense system that leads me to externalize responsibility, that leads me to project, or leads me to do all sorts of things that are not healthy, now I might think, "Well, you're calm because you just don't care about me." So think with the same exact thing.

如果我有一个防御系统，导致我将责任外化，导致我进行投射，或者导致我做各种不健康的事情，那么现在我可能会想，“好吧，你很平静，因为你根本不关心我。”所以用同样的事情来思考。

Right now, in the example we're giving, the person in your position is being really benign and benevolent, but it happens all the time where that is misconstrued.

现在，在我们给出的例子中，处于你位置的人非常仁慈和仁慈，但这种情况经常发生，被误解。

So it's not that the insight, that person is calm.

所以不是洞察力，而是那个人平静。

I see that they're calm.

我看他们很平静。

It's that there's a deficit in the mentalization.

就是心智上有缺陷。

The person's not fully understanding their intention.

这个人没有完全理解他们的意图。

What's coming through then gets distorted.

然后发生的事情就会被扭曲。

So we think about defense mechanisms.

所以我们考虑防御机制。

They can be clear, they can let light through in this beautiful way that has fidelity, or they can be very distorting.

它们可以是清晰的，可以让光线以这种美丽且保真度的方式透过，也可以是非常扭曲的。

So the thought, if I'm discerning that you are benevolent, and you seem to be trying to solve the problem for us, but I take in, and you just don't care about me, and you're trying to put one over on me.

所以我想，如果我看出你是仁慈的，你似乎想为我们解决问题，但我接受了，你就是不关心我，你想把一个问题加在我身上。

If I've assessed it accurately, but it comes on the other end in a way that's changed, that's because there's a lack of clarity, there's distortion inside of me.

如果我准确地评估了它，但它以一种改变的方式出现在另一端，那是因为缺乏清晰度，我内心有扭曲。

So then, if I'm really working on myself, I'm in the best place I can be, I'm going to be better at mentalizing about you and me.

所以，如果我真的在为自己努力，我就会处于最好的状态，我会更好地思考你和我。

Even if I say, "Whoa, we're having a disagreement." I know I tend to get a little defensive, so I'm going to be a little biased to see what's in you in a kind of negative way.

即使我说：“哇，我们有分歧。”我知道我倾向于采取一些防御措施，所以我会有点偏向于以消极的方式看待你的内心。

So what am I seeing?

那么我看到了什么？

Like, okay, you're pretty calm.

就像，好吧，你很冷静。

Maybe you don't care.

也许你不在乎。

I know I can think that, but come on, you're trying.

我知道我可以这么想，但是拜托，你正在尝试。

You want to solve our problem.

你想解决我们的问题。

Imagine when that goes on inside of a person, which sometimes goes on consciously or goes on unconsciously or some mixture, it's so powerful.

想象一下，当这种情况发生在一个人的内心时，有时是有意识地进行，有时是无意识地进行，或者以某种方式混合进行，它是如此强大。

The person's aware of their own state, which helps them to be aware of the state of the other, and then the information they're getting comes through with fidelity.

人们了解自己的状态，这有助于他们了解他人的状态，然后他们所获得的信息会保真地传达出来。

And now all of a sudden, instead of maybe I'm going to blow things up, now I'm aligned with you in solving our problem because I see clearly about you and me, and that's going on all the time.

现在突然之间，我不再可能会把事情搞砸，而是与你一起解决我们的问题，因为我清楚地看到你和我，而且这种情况一直在发生。

You might say, "Well, it's complicated.

你可能会说：“嗯，这很复杂。

There's a lot of back and forth." Right.

有很多来回。”正确的。

There are millions of things going on every split second in our unconscious mind that is throwing all this up to the conscious mind.

我们的潜意识中每时每刻都在发生数以百万计的事情，这些事情将所有这些都抛到了意识中。

It's doing things rapidly.

它做事很快。

That's going on all the time in us, whether we want to acknowledge it or not, and we choose not to acknowledge it at our own peril because then we're not going to those two pillars and their 10 cupboards.

无论我们是否愿意承认，这种情况一直在我们身上发生，我们选择不承认这一点，后果自负，因为那样我们就不会去那两根柱子和它们的 10 个橱柜。

We're not going to the structure of self, the function of self, and what comprises those two pillars to look for, hey, what's going on?

我们不会去寻找自我的结构、自我的功能以及这两个支柱是由什么组成的，嘿，发生了什么事？

Let me understand better.

让我更好地理解。

And even if things are going well, we can always, as you said not that long ago, we can understand ourselves better.

即使事情进展顺利，正如您不久前所说，我们总是可以更好地了解自己。

The stronger I am, the more generative drive there is in me, the less defensiveness, the more the agency and the gratitude, the more I'm armed for whatever difficult thing comes my way.

我越坚强，我体内的生成动力就越多，防御性就越少，能动性和感激之情就越多，我就越有能力应对任何困难的事情。

So if there's a conflict with someone, whether there should be or there shouldn't be, maybe someone's being really aggressive, and I got to say some things and try and counter that.

因此，如果与某人发生冲突，无论应该发生还是不应该发生，也许有人真的很有攻击性，我必须说一些话并尝试反击。

I'm going to be able to discern one from another.

我将能够区分一个与另一个。

I'm going to be more effective in both.

我将在这两方面变得更加有效。

I just set myself up for success.

我只是为成功做好了准备。

And if I'm setting me up for success, then I'm also setting you up for success if you're someone I have a relationship with, no matter what it is.

如果我为我的成功做好了准备，那么如果我与你有关系，无论是什么关系，我也会为你的成功做好准备。

And then ultimately, I'm setting the we.

最后，我要设定我们。

The magical bridge of us.

我们的神奇桥梁。

I'm setting that up for success, too.

我也正在为成功做好准备。

And that's how you see on these levels of emergence that if you understand everything about you and understand everything about me, and let's say a person understands we have a generative drive, you don't really know what our relationship is going to be like, but you think, I bet it's going to be a good one.

这就是你在这些涌现层面上看到的，如果你了解你的一切，也了解我的一切，假设一个人了解我们有生成动力，你并不真正知道我们的关系会是什么样子，但你认为，我打赌这将是一个很好的关系。

And then what would we then contribute, say, to a broader culture?

那么我们将为更广泛的文化做出什么贡献？

So a group of people, maybe there's 10 people, a bunch of friends getting together.

所以一群人，也许有10个人，一群朋友聚在一起。

We would contribute goodness at that next level, which is then the culture of the larger group.

我们将在下一个层面上贡献善行，这就是更大群体的文化。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In hearing your description of mentalization, this ability for all of us to get into the mind of another and to try and imagine motivations and states that would explain their behavior.

在听到您对心智化的描述时，我们所有人都有这种能力进入他人的思想并尝试想象可以解释他们行为的动机和状态。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

And self.

还有自我。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And self.

还有自我。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

The mind of self and other.

自我与他人的心。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, that seems like a natural reflex that's healthy, and it seems to surface most often as the consequence of negative interactions.

是的，这似乎是一种健康的自然反射，而且它似乎最常作为负面互动的结果而出现。

Something didn't go right, and so we explore, like, was it them?

有些事情不太对劲，所以我们探索，比如，是他们吗？

Was it me?

是我吗？

Was it something that happened before?

难道是以前发生过什么事情吗？

What else is going on with this person?

这个人还发生了什么？

As a way to try and arrive at some sort of, hopefully, generative understanding.

作为一种尝试并达成某种（有希望的）生成性理解的方式。

But it seems to me there's also great value in mentalizing about others Under conditions in which things are going well, so that one can potentially make things or encourage things to go even better in future interactions.

但在我看来，在事情进展顺利的情况下，对他人进行心理思考也很有价值，这样人们就可以在未来的互动中使事情或鼓励事情变得更好。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

Well, the first thing I would say is I think the reflex is most often not mentalizing.

嗯，我要说的第一件事是，我认为反射通常不是心理化的。

That the reflex is most often not mentalizing.

这种反射通常不是心理化的。

Because the reflexes often come from a position of not feeling safe.

因为反射往往来自于感觉不安全的位置。

There's some conflict.

有一些冲突。

I don't feel good.

我感觉不太好。

If there's some conflict, we all can get very defensive very quickly, whether we show it on the outside or we start partitioning inside.

如果发生一些冲突，我们都会很快变得非常防御，无论我们是在外面表现出来还是在内部开始划分。

And the problems come not from mentalizing, but they come from not mentalizing, and not being aware of the difference, because then I conclude, I know what's going on in you, and I don't.

问题不是来自心智化，而是来自没有心智化，没有意识到其中的差异，因为我得出的结论是，我知道你内心发生了什么，但我不知道。

Because I don't know what's going on in me, and I think you're being aggressive.

因为我不知道我内心发生了什么，而且我认为你很有攻击性。

Really, I'm feeling defensive.

真的，我感觉很防御。

I'm feeling vulnerable, and then I'm getting aggressive.

我感到很脆弱，然后我变得有攻击性。

But I can't handle that because I don't want to be aggressive, so you're aggressive.

但我无法处理这个问题，因为我不想变得咄咄逼人，所以你才变得咄咄逼人。

So there's such a difference between, say, coming at a self-other conflict from the perspective of, say, not mentalizing but thinking that you are, versus mentalizing.

因此，从不心智化而是认为自己是心智化的角度来看待自我他人冲突与心智化之间​​存在着很大的区别。

There's a difference between, is it me?

有区别，是我吗？

I know it can't be.

我知道不可能。

Is it you?

是你吗？

It must be.

一定是的。

And that's how a lot of that goes.

很多事情就是这样进行的。

And then, of course, what's the data that's gathered?

当然，收集到的数据是什么？

The data that's gathered supports that.

收集到的数据支持这一点。

I think there's wars that have happened based upon this, let alone conflicts and friendships and in relationships.

我认为基于此发生了战争，更不用说冲突、友谊和人际关系了。

The key about mentalizing is that's not what it is.

心智化的关键在于事实并非如此。

Mentalizing, it goes like this.

心智化，事情是这样的。

Is it me?

是我吗？

Is it you?

是你吗？

Is it us?

是我们吗？

Let's figure that out.

让我们弄清楚这一点。

Let's figure it out together.

让我们一起来想办法吧。

It's not defensive.

这不是防御性的。

It's not aggressive.

这并不具有攻击性。

It's not projecting.

这不是投影。

It's really actually seeing.

确实是亲眼所见。

And look, if it's me, I want to be aware of it and say, "Yeah, whoa, I got up on the wrong side of the bed.

听着，如果是我，我想意识到这一点并说，“是的，哇，我在床的错误一侧起床。

Look, let me just say I'm sorry." Or if I might say, "Look, I know that you're being aggressive and you normally wouldn't be," then I'm going to say, "Look, can we just get away from this?

听着，我只想说声对不起。”或者如果我可能会说，“听着，我知道你很有攻击性，而你通常不会这样，”那么我会说，“听着，我们能摆脱这种情况吗？

Let the person I care about calm down, come back later." Or if it's us, there's really something between us, then let's sort it out.

让我在乎的人冷静一下，等会儿再来吧。”或者如果是我们，我们之间确实有什么事情，那我们就解决一下吧。

The information that allows the healthy, the agency and gratitude decisions is always there through mentalizing.

通过心智化，始终存在能够做出健康、能动性和感恩决策的信息。

The danger is when we're not mentalizing, but we think we are.

危险在于我们没有心智化，但我们认为我们在心智化。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Got it.

明白了。

In keeping with thinking about others and what's going on with them, mentalizing that is, and in thinking about what's going on with ourselves and the exploration of the cupboards under the pillars of structure of self, function of self, and our desire for all of that to geyser up into agency and gratitude.

与思考他人以及他们正在发生的事情保持一致，即心智化，并思考我们自己正在发生的事情，以及在自我结构、自我功能的支柱下探索橱柜，以及我们对所有这些的渴望，以激发出能动性和感激之情。

One thing that we hear about so much these days, and generally I think it's good that people are talking about them, are boundaries.

这些天我们经常听到的一件事是界限，而且我认为人们谈论它们通常是件好事。

You've crossed my boundary or I'm setting a boundary, and I've certainly embedded the message in my head that in order for certain relationships to be at their most loving in my life, sometimes the boundaries require very little frequency of communication.

你已经跨越了我的界限，或者我正在设定一个界限，我当然已经在我的脑海中嵌入了这样的信息：为了让某些关系在我的生活中处于最有爱的状态，有时界限需要很少的沟通频率。

But that doesn't mean the relationships aren't ongoing.

但这并不意味着这种关系不会持续下去。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So what are your thoughts on boundaries and how should we think about boundaries for sake of healthy relationships?

那么，您对界限有何看法？为了健康的关系，我们应该如何思考界限？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Well, healthy boundaries always start inside.

嗯，健康的界限总是从内部开始。

And then once we have them squared away inside, we can project them outward.

然后，一旦我们将它们放在里面，我们就可以将它们向外投影。

The same as everything works.

一切都一样。

It starts with the self and then it includes the other.

它从自我开始，然后包括他人。

So let's say you took an example of a friend who's just a little too presumptuous.

假设你举了一个有点太自以为是的朋友的例子。

Like the kind of person you'd rather knock on your door, but who just opens the door and comes in.

就像那种你宁愿敲门，但他只是开门进来的人。

That kind of thing.

那种事。

And you like the person a lot and there's a lot of resonance and you don't want to lose the friendship.

你很喜欢这个人，有很多共鸣，你不想失去友谊。

And so let's imagine what could happen here.

让我们想象一下这里会发生什么。

It's not the only thing that can happen, but a thought experiment.

这不是唯一可能发生的事情，而是一个思想实验。

So the person may then question themselves like, "Is there something wrong with me?

所以这个人可能会问自己，“我有什么问题吗？

Because I don't really like this person coming in my front door.

因为我真的不喜欢这个人走进我的前门。

Is that just me?

只有我这样吗？

Am I being weird about that?" And the person can stop and think about that and they can take stock of self, and they can arrive at an answer for themselves.

我对此很奇怪吗？”这个人可以停下来思考这一点，他们可以评估自己，他们可以为自己找到答案。

That person may conclude that, you know what?

那人可能会得出这样的结论：你知道吗？

People I'm as close to as this person come in my front door, you know what?

我和这个人一样亲近的人来到我的前门，你知道吗？

That's okay.

没关系。

You know what?

你知道吗？

I don't need to set a boundary there.

我不需要在那里设定界限。

That's possible.

这是可能的。

More often, what the person concludes is, "No, I don't really want that.

更多时候，这个人的结论是：“不，我真的不想那样。

I do actually want this person to knock on the door," and that's okay.

我确实希望这个人来敲门，”这没关系。

There's not something wrong with me.

我没有什么问题。

It's not that I'm being a jerk.

这并不是说我是个混蛋。

It's not that I'm being a bad friend.

这并不是说我是一个坏朋友。

Because what are they saying?

因为他们在说什么？

You might say, oh, they're preparing for what the other person could say.

你可能会说，哦，他们正在为对方可能说的话做准备。

But no, they're countering what they're testing out to themselves.

但不，他们正在反驳他们自己测试的内容。

Does that mean I'm a bad friend?

这是否意味着我是一个坏朋友？

No. That kind of thing.

不，那种事。

So they know and then they understand, and they have the right to set the boundary.

所以他们知道然后他们理解，他们有权设定边界。

Like, okay, it's my house.

就像，好吧，这是我的房子。

I try and be generous, but I still don't want people coming in the door.

我试着表现得慷慨大方，但我仍然不希望人们进来。

You come to some conclusion that setting the boundary is okay and you're squared away with it inside.

你得出一些结论：设定边界是可以的，并且你在内部与它保持一致。

Then you communicate the boundary outward.

然后你向外传达边界。

And you said, how do I want to communicate that?

你说，我想如何传达这一点？

Saying, "Hey man, don't come in the front door anymore," that's not so good.

说：“嘿伙计，别再从前门进来了”，这可不太好。

Now the friendship is really on the rocks.

现在，友谊真的岌岌可危了。

But to say to someone something like, "Yeah, look, I care about you and I trust you, and I know you feel the same way about me, but it just makes me nervous when people just come in the door.

但对某人说这样的话，“是的，听着，我关心你，我信任你，我知道你对我也有同样的感觉，但当人们刚进门时，这只会让我感到紧张。

Do you mind?

你介意吗？

Is it okay if you just please knock on the door?" Now, think about how that's been done.

麻烦你敲一下门可以吗？”现在，想想这是如何做到的。

It's so accurate to what's going on inside the person, to how the person wants to communicate with the other, then you have the highest likelihood of effectiveness.

它非常准确地了解人内心的想法，准确地了解人想要如何与他人沟通，这样你就最有可能取得成效。

And the person also, in that sense, has sort of the clean conscience, so to speak, that lets them take in information back.

从这个意义上说，这个人也有某种清白的良心，可以说，这让他们能够接收信息。

So let's say the other person, hopefully has a high generative drive and all the good things we're talking about, could say, "Oh, you know what?

因此，假设另一个人希望拥有较高的生成动力以及我们正在谈论的所有美好事物，他可以说：“哦，你知道吗？

I'm sorry.

对不起。

I didn't mean to make you feel uncomfortable.

我并不是故意让你感到不舒服。

I kind of just automatically do that," or, "I always do that at my brother's house and it's close by," or whatever the person is saying.

我只是自动这样做，”或者，“我总是在我兄弟的家里这样做，而且就在附近，”或者无论这个人在说什么。

No worries.

不用担心。

Okay, everything is fine.

好吧，一切都很好。

But let's say that person does get mad.

但假设那个人确实生气了。

Now you know, like, "Whoa, what's going on in this person?" Because now what you're doing is you're seeing signs of unhealth in the other person.

现在你知道了，“哇，这个人怎么了？”因为现在你所做的就是在对方身上看到不健康的迹象。

And it may be that, whoa, that's not so healthy with the person, but I like other aspects of the friendship, and that seems like kind of a strange idiosyncrasy.

也许，哇，这个人不太健康，但我喜欢友谊的其他方面，这似乎是一种奇怪的特质。

Then you might decide, "You know what?

然后你可能会决定：“你知道吗？

I want to keep this friendship, so I'll start locking the door, and the person has to knock." Or you might think, "Okay, am I seeing something here that's about lack of consideration?

我想保持这种友谊，所以我会开始锁门，而那个人必须敲门。”或者你可能会想，“好吧，我在这里看到的是缺乏考虑的东西吗？

That's about selfishness, that ultimately may be about envy.

这与自私有关，最终可能与嫉妒有关。

I'm going to walk into your house and ruin your privacy, and I'm going to walk into your house and make you feel anxious.

我要走进你的房子，破坏你的隐私，我要走进你的房子，让你感到焦虑。

I feel entitled to do that." That's the kind of thing that's really coming through the lens of envy.

我觉得我有权这样做。”这才是真正通过嫉妒的镜头看到的事情。

So then you start thinking about that, and maybe, not always of course, sometimes you find a friend who can do the right thing.

然后你开始考虑这一点，也许，当然并非总是如此，有时你会找到一个可以做正确事情的朋友。

Sometimes you find a friend who can't, and you can still make the friendship work.

有时你会找到一个不能做的朋友，但你仍然可以使友谊发挥作用。

Sometimes you find a person who's not a friend.

有时你会遇到一个不是朋友的人。

And you see, oh, that's how everything is with this person.

你看，哦，这个人就是这样。

You realize there's no us.

你意识到没有我们。

And that's how people can leave relationships that ultimately are exploitive in one way or another, whether it's a friendship, it's a romance.

这就是人们如何摆脱最终以某种方式剥削的关系，无论是友谊还是浪漫。

If a person really understands there's the me, the you, the magical bridge of us, and then wait, there's no magical bridge of us.

如果一个人真正明白，那就有我、你、我们之间的神奇桥梁，然后等等，我们之间就没有神奇的桥梁了。

I feel that there's a magical bridge of us, but the other person doesn't.

我觉得我们之间有一座神奇的桥梁，但对方却没有。

There's immense power of understanding, and then of appropriate self-care and self-protection.

理解的力量巨大，然后是适当的自我照顾和自我保护。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Over and over again, not just during today's episode, but in the previous two episodes, it seems that getting squared away with oneself, or at least one's own internal processes to some degree.

一次又一次，不仅在今天的节目中，而且在前两集中，似乎都在与自己摆平，或者至少在某种程度上与自己的内部过程摆平。

Gaining some insight as to where the negative or even positive emotion within us is arising when we're in relationship to anyone or anything.

深入了解当我们与任何人或任何事物建立关系时，我们内心的消极甚至积极情绪是在哪里产生的。

It just seems so key.

这似乎很关键。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's like the foundation of it.

这就像它的基础。

You said getting to the maximum amount of agency and gratitude is the goal, really.

你说过，真正的目标是获得最大程度的代理和感激。

And that's done by cycling back through the cupboards that reside under structure of self and function of self and asking questions about oneself.

这是通过循环回到自我结构和自我功能下的橱柜并询问有关自己的问题来完成的。

And really, unless we are trained psychiatrists like you, none of us really should be doing that for the other person, it seems.

事实上，除非我们像你一样是受过训练的精神科医生，否则我们谁都不应该为另一个人这样做，看起来。

This is really our each and all of our own responsibility to do for ourselves, but that it serves others in so many positive ways.

这确实是我们每个人都有责任为自己做的事情，但它以许多积极的方式为他人服务。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

So mentalization greases the progress of all things good.

因此，心智化促进了一切美好事物的进步。

Because it is about actual understanding, feeling states, intentions.

因为它关乎实际的理解、感受状态、意图。

But I have to first mentalize about me before I mentalize about you.

但在我想象你之前，我必须先想象我自己。

A way of putting this would be, if I'm thinking about you before I'm thinking about me, I'm on a fool's errand.

换句话说，如果我在考虑自己之前先考虑你，那我就是在做傻事。

You have to start with the self and to try and attain clarity of self or to realize that you can't.

你必须从自我开始，尝试澄清自我，否则就会意识到你做不到。

It's a very important nuance.

这是一个非常重要的细微差别。

If I know that, say, there's trauma in me about a certain thing, and I know that I respond in ways where sometimes my emotions get high and I can't quite think through it all, which can happen to me with references or something that's encompassing a certain kind of trauma.

如果我知道，比如说，我对某件事有创伤，并且我知道我的反应方式有时会导致我的情绪高涨，而我无法完全思考清楚这一切，这可能会发生在我身上，因为参考文献或包含某种创伤的事情。

I want to be aware of that.

我想知道这一点。

So there's the idea of not only being aware of what you know about yourself, but being aware that there are things you don't know about yourself.

因此，不仅要意识到你对自己的了解，而且要意识到有些事情是你不了解自己的。

So if I know enough to know that a certain kind of interaction about a certain kind of trauma really sets me to a place where I'm not able to mentalize like I normally would be.

因此，如果我足够了解，关于某种创伤的某种互动确实会让我陷入无法像平常那样进行心理思考的境地。

I'm sort of flying blind.

我有点盲目了。

Then good for me to know that because I don't know what that's doing to me.

知道这一点对我来说是件好事，因为我不知道这对我有什么影响。

So it's the last time to make conclusions.

所以这是最后一次下结论了。

So let's say I'm in that state.

假设我处于这种状态。

Let's say I'm in that state because of something that just happened.

假设我因为刚刚发生的事情而处于这种状态。

And now we have some sort of conflict.

现在我们发生了某种冲突。

Then for me to realize, whoa, what's going on in me?

然后我才意识到，哇，我身上发生了什么？

I'm bringing to this a lack of clarity because I'm really activated.

我对此缺乏清晰度，因为我真的很活跃。

In that sense, the anxiety, the tension in me has been raised to the negative emotion, that reflexive negative affect, feeling emotion has been raised in me.

从这个意义上说，我内心的焦虑、紧张已经上升为负面情绪，那种反射性的负面情绪、感觉情绪已经在我身上上升。

And then I realize, I don't know how it's going to go if we interact about it now because I can't rely on me.

然后我意识到，如果我们现在就此事进行互动，我不知道事情会如何发展，因为我不能依赖我自己。

So like, "Hey, can we talk about this later?" The same way, if you recognize in the other, that person who's usually rational is all worked up, recognize that in the other.

就像，“嘿，我们可以稍后再讨论这个吗？”同样，如果你认识到对方通常是理性的人现在很激动，那就认识到对方的这一点。

And maybe that person doesn't realize that.

也许那个人并没有意识到这一点。

They still want to interact, and you say, "Let's revisit this when we're both kind of calm, cool, and collected." So mentalization greases the wheels of all progress, but like anything else, it has to be deployed in a way that works.

他们仍然想要互动，而你说：“等我们都冷静、冷静、镇定下来后，我们再讨论一下这个问题。”因此，心理化为所有进步提供了动力，但与其他事物一样，它必须以有效的方式进行部署。

And the way that works is I start with me, then I go to you, and then I go to us.

有效的方式是我从我开始，然后我去找你，然后我去找我们。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm fully on board the start with me, then to the other, and then to us model.

我完全同意从我开始，然后是其他人，然后是我们的模型。

It makes total sense.

这是完全有道理的。

In fact, so much so that I'm starting to build an image in my mind where first is a kind of a rule, which is it starts with self-understanding and thoughtful, structured inquiry along the lines of the map that was laid out in episodes one and two of this series, and that we've been alluding to numerous times today.

事实上，以至于我开始在脑海中建立一个形象，其中首先是一种规则，它是从自我理解和深思熟虑的、结构化的探究开始，沿着本系列第一集和第二集所列出的地图的路线开始，我们今天已经多次提到过这一点。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And then there's a second line or rule that I've got written on this imaginary piece of paper in my mind, where anytime I default to thinking about another without first going to my own map and exploring what's going on with me, that my own map starts to become blurry, like I'm losing access to it and it potentially could disappear.

然后，我在脑海中的这张想象的纸上写下了第二条线或规则，每当我默认思考另一个而不先去我自己的地图并探索我正在发生的事情时，我自己的地图开始变得模糊，就像我无法访问它一样，它可能会消失。

I'm just creating this in my own mind as a way to-

我只是在自己的脑海中创造这个作为一种方式-

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

create a little bit of, I think, healthy anxiety.

我认为，制造一点健康的焦虑。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yeah.

是的。

I like it.

我喜欢它。

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

To really go there first.

真的要先去那里。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Paints the picture.

绘制图画。

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And the purpose in having such an image in my mind that access to the self and understanding of self is potentially drifting away is because I think for me, there's a third line in this rule set that I'm imagining, which is that if The less understanding we have of our own map and internal process, the more likely I am, or we all are, to just latch onto an unhealthy map.

在我的脑海中出现这样一种图像的目的是，接近自我和理解自我可能会逐渐消失，因为我认为对我来说，我想象的这个规则集中有第三条线，那就是，如果我们对自己的地图和内部过程了解得越少，我或我们所有人就越有可能抓住不健康的地图。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Another unhealthy map.

又一张不健康的地图。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I have to believe this.

我必须相信这一点。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Or even follow the directions of our own unhealthy map, which leads us to someone else's unhealthy map, and then we latch onto it, like you said.

或者甚至遵循我们自己的不健康地图的指示，这会将我们引向别人的不健康地图，然后我们抓住它，就像你说的那样。

Yeah, absolutely, yes.

是的，绝对是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, that's right, because it's still active, even if it's blurry or-

是的，没错，因为它仍然处于活动状态，即使它很模糊或者-

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

if it's obscured from my awareness and drifting away.

如果它从我的意识中消失并逐渐消失。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

If I'm trying to guide myself with my broken compass, I run into someone else with a broken compass.

如果我试图用坏了的指南针来引导自己，我就会遇到其他人也用坏了的指南针。

Now we're both wandering.

现在我们俩都在流浪。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

So be aware.

所以要注意。

If the compass isn't working the way we want it to, can we go look at that?

如果指南针没有按照我们想要的方式工作，我们可以去看看吗？

Can we make the map healthy, make the map accurate, make the map guide us towards what we want?

我们能否让地图变得健康、让地图变得准确、让地图引导我们走向我们想要的方向？

Because then we will find other people who've worked on their own maps that way.

因为那时我们会找到其他以这种方式制作自己的地图的人。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

And so often I hear about, and frankly, I've experienced this feeling like, oh, it's just a matter of finding somebody who is healthy, and then things will be much easier and much better.

我经常听到，坦率地说，我经历过这种感觉，哦，只要找到一个健康的人，然后事情就会变得更容易、更好。

And surely, that has to be the case, and surely there have to be instances where people have an interaction with somebody that leads to a relationship with somebody, and the other person is much healthier and whatever trauma we come to the relationship with is best supported or better supported than it would be if we were with somebody exploitive or who is truly damaged in some way, who basically had a map that was really, I don't want to say screwed up, but that they had not explored and worked.

当然，情况一定是这样，而且肯定会有这样的情况，人们与某人的互动会导致与某人的关系，而另一个人要健康得多，无论我们在关系中遇到什么创伤，都比我们和一个剥削性的人或在某种程度上真正受到伤害的人在一起得到最好的支持或更好的支持，他们基本上有一张地图，我不想说搞砸了，但他们没有探索和工作。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

They need a lot of work.

他们需要做很多工作。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They need a lot of work.

他们需要做很多工作。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

They need a lot of work on the map.

他们需要在地图上做很多工作。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But I don't see that very often.

但我不经常看到这种情况。

I definitely see people who, at least from my outside read, seem to have healthy maps or are doing regular exploration of their maps and therefore healthy.

我确实看到人们，至少从我的外部阅读来看，似乎拥有健康的地图，或者正在定期探索他们的地图，因此是健康的。

Who knows?

谁知道？

I don't know what they do with their time in every domain of life.

我不知道他们在生活的各个领域都花时间做什么。

But once again, we come back to this importance of understanding what's in those cupboards, what's in those pillars as a not just important, but critical step in understanding and building ourselves in positive ways.

但我们再次回到理解那些柜子里有什么、那些支柱里有什么的重要性，这不仅是重要的，而且是以积极的方式理解和建设我们自己的关键一步。

And as I said once or twice before in this series, but I'm going to say it again, and I'm sure again and again before we conclude this series, is that what's so attractive about this map is that it sets a very clear and simple set of ideals.

正如我之前在本系列中说过的一两次，但我要再说一遍，并且在我们结束本系列之前我一次又一次地确信，这张地图的吸引力在于它设定了一组非常清晰且简单的理想。

Not necessarily simple to attain, and as you said, it takes time, but agency-

不一定很容易实现，正如你所说，这需要时间，但代理-

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

In concept, yes

从概念上讲，是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and gratitude, empowerment, humility, leading up to peace, contentment, and delight, all as action states, not as passive states to just bask in and disappear.

感恩、赋权、谦逊，通向平静、满足和喜悦，所有这些都是行动状态，而不是只是沉浸在其中并消失的被动状态。

And this notion of the generative drive.

还有生成驱动力的概念。

And by now, in this episode, I'm sure people are well on board the understanding that the generative drive is not just about going out and doing things.

到目前为止，在这一集里，我相信人们已经充分认识到，生成动力不仅仅是出去做事。

It's about doing things in service to and in a way that supports learning, knowing, creating, not just of others and in the world, but inside.

它是为了服务于并以支持学习、认识、创造的方式做事，不仅是他人和世界上的，而且是内心的。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yes.

是的。

I love the map imagery because you can almost see the map changing as the person.

我喜欢地图图像，因为你几乎可以看到地图随着人的变化而变化。

I imagine the person is busying away in the cupboards.

我想象那个人正在橱柜里忙碌。

Oh, there's a lot to work on in this cupboard, and they're busying away, and they're doing the work, and we can see the map changing.

哦，这个橱柜里有很多工作要做，他们正在忙着，他们正在做工作，我们可以看到地图在变化。

That path that looked like a really good path actually goes through a swamp.

这条看似很好的路，实际上却穿过一片沼泽。

We didn't see the swamp on the map.

我们在地图上没有看到沼泽。

Now it appears on the map.

现在它出现在地图上。

That other path that looked like it's a little circuitous, that's a good path.

另一条路虽然看起来有点迂回，但却是一条好路。

It might be a harder path.

这可能是一条更艰难的路。

It is a little circuitous, but look where it leads.

这有点迂回，但看看它通向哪里。

The map becomes clear as we do the work on ourselves.

当我们自己动手时，地图就会变得清晰。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yes, and also the understanding that you've laid out for us here really helps avoid a lot of the common pitfalls that are associated with sticky language, and sticky for good reason.

是的，而且您在这里为我们阐述的理解确实有助于避免许多与粘性语言相关的常见陷阱，并且粘性是有充分理由的。

What's stickier and more interesting for people that are interested in themselves in relationship than things like boundaries or labels like anxious attached or secure attached?

对于那些在关系中对自己感兴趣的人来说，还有什么比边界或焦虑型依恋或安全型依恋等标签更具有粘性和更有趣的呢？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm not being disparaging of those labels, but I'm realizing those are just labels.

我并不是要贬低这些标签，但我意识到这些只是标签。

They don't define action items and specific lines of inquiry to get us back into our self-understanding over and over.

他们没有定义行动项目和具体的调查路线来让我们一遍又一遍地回到自我理解中。

Not as a full-time job.

不是作为一份全职工作。

We all have to live our lives, but as a way, actually, to be more leaned into life in the outside world.