Guest Series | Dr. Matt Walker: The Biology of Sleep & Your Unique Sleep Needs

嘉宾系列|马特·沃克博士：睡眠生物学和您独特的睡眠需求

2024-04-03 | 官方页面 YouTube 官方音频

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Welcome to the Huberman Lab Guest Series, where I and an expert guest discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

欢迎来到胡伯曼实验室嘉宾系列，我和一位专家嘉宾讨论了日常生活中的科学和基于科学的工具。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

Today's episode marks the first in our six-episode series all about sleep.

今天的这一集是我们关于睡眠的六集系列节目的第一集。

Our expert guest for this series is Dr. Matthew Walker, professor of neuroscience and psychology, and the director of the Center for Sleep Science at the University of California, Berkeley.

本系列的专家嘉宾是加州大学伯克利分校神经科学和心理学教授、睡眠科学中心主任 Matthew Walker 博士。

He is also the author of the best-selling book, "Why We Sleep." During the course of the six-episode series for which we release one episode per week, starting with this episode one, we cover essentially all aspects of sleep and provide numerous practical tools to improve your sleep.

他还是畅销书《我们为什么睡觉》的作者。在我们每周发布一集的六集系列节目中，从第一集开始，我们基本上涵盖了睡眠的所有方面，并提供了许多实用工具来改善您的睡眠。

For instance, we discuss the biology of sleep, including the different sleep stages, as well as why sleep is so important for our mental and physical health.

例如，我们讨论睡眠的生物学，包括不同的睡眠阶段，以及为什么睡眠对我们的身心健康如此重要。

We also talk about how sleep regulates things like emotionality and learning and neuroplasticity, that is, your brain's ability to change in response to experience.

我们还讨论了睡眠如何调节情绪、学习和神经可塑性（即大脑响应经历而变化的能力）。

And we discuss the various things that you can do to improve your sleep.

我们还讨论了可以采取的各种措施来改善睡眠。

Everything from how to time lighting, temperature, exercise, eating, and the various things that can impact sleep, both positively and negatively, such as alcohol, cannabis, and various supplements and drugs that have been shown to improve sleep.

从如何安排照明时间、温度、运动、饮食，以及各种可以积极和消极影响睡眠的因素，例如酒精、大麻以及已被证明可以改善睡眠的各种补充剂和药物，一切都应有尽有。

We also talk about naps, dreaming, and the role of dreams, and lucid dreaming, which is when you dream and you are aware that you are dreaming.

我们还讨论小睡、做梦、梦的作用以及清醒梦，即当你做梦并且你意识到自己在做梦时。

In today's episode one, we specifically focus on why sleep is so important and what happens when we do not get enough sleep or enough quality sleep.

在今天的第一集中，我们特别关注为什么睡眠如此重要，以及当我们睡眠不足或睡眠质量不足时会发生什么。

We also talk about the various sleep stages, and we also talk about a very specific formula that everyone should know for themselves called QQRT, which is an acronym that stands for quality, quantity, regularity, and timing of sleep.

我们还讨论了各个睡眠阶段，还讨论了一个每个人都应该知道的非常具体的公式，称为 QQRT，它是代表睡眠质量、数量、规律性和时间安排的缩写。

Four factors which today you'll learn how to identify specifically for you what your optimal QQRT is, and then to apply that in order to get the best possible night's sleep, which of course equates to the best possible level of focus and alertness throughout your days.

今天您将学习如何专门确定您的最佳 QQRT 的四个因素，然后应用它以获得尽可能最佳的夜间睡眠，这当然相当于您全天的最佳注意力和警觉水平。

Both Dr. Walker and I are very excited to share the material in this six-episode series with all of you, and as we march into today's episode one, I'm sure it will both provide a ton of excellent practical learning for all of you, as well as spark many questions that are sure to be answered in the subsequent episodes of this series.

沃克博士和我都非常高兴与大家分享这个六集系列中的材料，当我们进入今天的第一集时，我相信它将为大家提供大量出色的实践学习，并引发许多问题，这些问题肯定会在本系列的后续剧集中得到解答。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。

Our first sponsor is Eight Sleep.

我们的第一个赞助商是八睡。

Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity.

August Sleep 生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。

Many times on this podcast, we discuss how in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually needs to drop by about one to three degrees.

在这个播客中，我们多次讨论为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的体温实际上需要下降约一到三度。

And in order to wake up feeling maximally refreshed and energized, your body temperature needs to heat up by about one to three degrees.

为了在醒来时感到最大程度的神清气爽和精力充沛，您的体温需要升高约一到三度。

Eight Sleep makes it very easy to control the temperature of your sleeping environment so that it's easy to fall and stay asleep and wake up feeling refreshed.

八睡眠让您可以轻松控制睡眠环境的温度，从而轻松入睡并保持睡眠状态，醒来时感觉神清气爽。

I started sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover several years ago, and it has completely and positively transformed my sleep.

几年前，我开始睡在八睡床罩上，它彻底、积极地改变了我的睡眠。

So much so that when I travel to hotels or Airbnbs, I really miss my Eight Sleep.

以至于当我去酒店或 Airbnb 旅行时，我真的很怀念我的八觉睡眠。

I've even shipped my Eight Sleep out to hotels that I've been staying in because it improves my sleep that much.

我什至把我的八睡眠送到我一直住过的酒店，因为它极大地改善了我的睡眠。

If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, you can go to eightsleep.com/huberman to save $150 off their Pod 3 cover.

如果您想尝试八睡眠，您可以访问八睡眠.com/huberman，在其 Pod 3 封面上可节省 150 美元。

Eight Sleep currently ships to the USA, Canada, UK, select countries in the EU, and Australia.

八睡眠目前运往美国、加拿大、英国、欧盟部分国家和澳大利亚。

Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman.

再说一遍，这是八睡眠.com/huberman。

Today's episode is also brought to us by BetterHelp.

今天的节目也是由 BetterHelp 为我们带来的。

BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out online.

BetterHelp 提供由持证治疗师在线进行的专业治疗。

Now, I've been doing therapy for well over 30 years.

现在，我从事治疗已经超过 30 年了。

Initially, I had to do therapy against my will, but of course, I continued to do it voluntarily over time because I really believe that doing regular therapy with a quality therapist is one of the best things that we can do for our mental health.

最初，我不得不违背自己的意愿进行治疗，但当然，随着时间的推移，我继续自愿这样做，因为我真的相信，与优质治疗师一起进行定期治疗是我们可以为心理健康做的最好的事情之一。

Indeed, for many people, it's as beneficial as getting regular physical exercise.

事实上，对于许多人来说，这与定期进行体育锻炼一样有益。

The great thing about BetterHelp is that it makes it very easy to find a therapist that's optimal for your needs.

BetterHelp 的伟大之处在于，它可以让您轻松找到最适合您需求的治疗师。

And I think it's fair to say that we can define a great therapist as somebody with whom you have excellent rapport, somebody with whom you can talk about a variety of different issues, and who can provide you not just support, but also insight.

我认为可以公平地说，我们可以将优秀的治疗师定义为与您关系融洽、可以与您谈论各种不同问题、不仅可以为您提供支持，还可以为您提供见解的人。

And with BetterHelp, they make it extremely convenient so that it's matched to your schedule and other aspects of your life.

通过 BetterHelp，他们使其变得极其方便，以便与您的日程安排和生活的其他方面相匹配。

If you'd like to try BetterHelp, you can go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month.

如果您想尝试 BetterHelp，可以访问 betterhelp.com/huberman，第一个月可享受 10% 的折扣。

Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman.

再说一次，这是 betterhelp.com/huberman。

Today's episode is also brought to us by LMNT.

今天的节目也是LMNT给我们带来的。

LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.

LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。

That means plenty of the electrolytes, magnesium, potassium, and sodium, and no sugar.

这意味着需要大量的电解质、镁、钾和钠，并且不含糖。

As I mentioned before on this podcast, I'm a big fan of salt.

正如我之前在这个播客中提到的，我是盐的忠实粉丝。

Now, I want to be clear.

现在，我想澄清一下。

People who already consume a lot of salt or who have high blood pressure or who happen to consume a lot of processed foods that typically contain salt need to control their salt intake.

已经摄入大量盐或患有高血压或恰好食用大量通常含有盐的加工食品的人需要控制盐的摄入量。

However, if you're somebody who eats pretty clean and you're somebody who exercises and you're drinking a lot of water, there's a decent chance that you could benefit from ingesting more electrolytes with your liquids.

然而，如果您饮食非常干净，并且经常锻炼并且喝大量的水，那么您很有可能通过液体摄入更多的电解质而受益。

The reason for that is that all the cells in our body, including the nerve cells, the neurons, require the electrolytes in order to function properly.

原因是我们体内的所有细胞，包括神经细胞、神经元，都需要电解质才能正常运作。

So we don't just want to be hydrated, we want to be hydrated with proper electrolyte levels.

因此，我们不仅要补充水分，还希望补充适当的电解质水平。

With LMNT, that's very easy to do.

有了 LMNT，这很容易做到。

What I do is when I wake up in the morning, I consume about 16 to 32 ounces of water, and I'll dissolve a packet of LMNT in that water.

我所做的是，当我早上醒来时，我会喝大约 16 到 32 盎司的水，然后将一包 LMNT 溶解在水中。

I'll also do the same when I exercise, especially if it's on a hot day and I'm sweating a lot.

当我锻炼时我也会这样做，特别是在大热天而且我出汗很多的时候。

And sometimes I'll even have a third LMNT packet dissolved in water if I'm exercising really hard or sweating a lot, or if I just notice that I'm not consuming enough salt with my food.

有时，如果我锻炼得很辛苦或出汗很多，或者我只是注意到我在食物中没有摄入足够的盐，我什至会将第三包 LMNT 溶解在水中。

If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt, spelled L-M-N-T.com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with your purchase.

如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以前往 Drinklmnt（拼写为 L-M-N-T.com/huberman），在购买时领取免费的 LMNT 样品包。

Again, that's drinklmnt, L-M-N-T.com/huberman.

再说一遍，这是 Drinklmnt，L-M-N-T.com/huberman。

And now for my conversation with Dr. Matthew Walker.

现在是我与马修·沃克博士的对话。

Dr. Matt Walker, welcome

马特·沃克博士，欢迎光临

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Dr. Huberman, it's an absolute privilege and a delight to be back.

Huberman 博士，能够回来我感到非常荣幸和高兴。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's right.

没错。

You've been on here before, but-

你以前来过这里，但是-

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

I have

我有

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

during this episode, in this series, we are going to go a lot deeper.

在本集中，在本系列中，我们将进行更深入的探讨。

By the way, you look very well rested.

顺便说一句，你看起来休息得很好。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Thank you very much.

非常感谢。

I actually slept pretty well last night, despite it being a foreign location.

事实上，我昨晚睡得很好，尽管这是在异国他乡。

Same time zone.

相同时区。

That helps just astronomically.

这带来的帮助简直是天文数字。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Amazing.

太棒了。

Well, rather than ask you what a great night's sleep is for you, because I am pretty sure you're going to tell us that there's some individual differences that people need to pay attention to in terms of what is "optimal sleep", let's start off with the basics.

好吧，与其问你什么是一夜好眠，因为我很确定你会告诉我们，在什么是“最佳睡眠”方面，人们需要注意一些个体差异，让我们从基础知识开始。

What is sleep?

什么是睡眠？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

So sleep, I think, in some ways you can define as, at least in humans, and in fact in all mammalian species, is broadly separated into two main types of sleep.

因此，我认为，在某些方面，你可以将睡眠定义为，至少在人类中，事实上在所有哺乳动物物种中，睡眠大致分为两种主要类型。

On the one hand, we have something that many people will have heard of called non-rapid eye movement sleep, or non-REM sleep for short.

一方面，很多人都听说过“非快速眼动睡眠”，简称“非快速眼动睡眠”。

And non-REM sleep has been further subdivided into four separate stages, and they are unimaginatively called stages one through four increasing in their depth of sleep.

非快速眼动睡眠又被进一步细分为四个不同的阶段，它们被简单地称为睡眠深度不断增加的第一阶段到第四阶段。

So stages three and four, that's the really deep sleep that we can speak about.

所以第三和第四阶段，这就是我们可以谈论的真正的深度睡眠。

And I should explain a little bit at some point what happens during that state within the brain.

我应该在某个时候解释一下大脑在这种状态下发生的事情。

It's stunning.

太棒了。

It's astonishing.

真是令人惊讶。

So you've got stages one and two, light non-REM sleep, when you sort of look at your sleep trackers, and it has light non-REM, deep non-REM, and then REM.

所以你有第一和第二阶段，轻度非快速眼动睡眠，当你查看你的睡眠追踪器时，它有轻度非快速眼动睡眠，深度非快速眼动睡眠，然后是快速眼动睡眠。

Stages one and two, that's light non-REM.

第一阶段和第二阶段是轻度非快速眼动阶段。

Stages three and four, that's deep non-REM.

第三和第四阶段，即深度非快速眼动阶段。

And that's non-REM encapsulated.

这是非快速眼动封装的。

On the other hand, we have rapid eye movement sleep or REM sleep, and it's named not after the popular Michael Stipe band of the 1990s, but because of these bizarre horizontal shuttling eye movements that occur during this stage of sleep, hence the rapid eye movements.

另一方面，我们有快速眼动睡眠或快速眼动睡眠，它不是以 20 世纪 90 年代流行的 Michael Stipe 乐队命名的，而是因为在这个睡眠阶段发生了这些奇怪的水平穿梭眼球运动，因此出现了快速眼动。

And REM sleep is, depending on your definition, and we'll probably come to this in later episodes, it's the principal stage in which we dream.

快速眼动睡眠，取决于你的定义，我们可能会在后面的剧集中谈到这一点，它是我们做梦的主要阶段。

But if your definition is quite loose, which is any reported mental activity when I wake you up or when you wake up, then it turns out that we dream in almost every stage of sleep.

但如果你的定义相当宽松，即我叫醒你或你醒来时所报告的任何心理活动，那么事实证明我们几乎在睡眠的每个阶段都会做梦。

But I'll describe REM sleep from here on in as perhaps dream sleep, and I'll make that faux pas.

但从现在开始，我会把快速眼动睡眠描述为可能是做梦睡眠，但我会失礼的。

So you've got these two types of sleep, non-REM and REM sleep.

所以你有两种类型的睡眠，非快速眼动睡眠和快速眼动睡眠。

They will then play out in this beautiful battle for brain domination throughout the night, and that cerebral war is going to be won and lost on average for the average adult every 90 minutes, and then it's going to be replayed every 90 minutes.

然后，他们将在整个晚上上演这场精彩的大脑统治之战，对于普通成年人来说，这场大脑战争平均每 90 分钟就会有胜负，然后每 90 分钟就会重播一次。

And that creates the standard cycling architecture of sleep.

这就创建了标准的睡眠循环架构。

So whoever's listening to this, when your head hits the pillow tonight, what will happen?

所以，无论谁在听这个，今晚当你的头撞到枕头上时，会发生什么？

You'll start to go down into the light stages of non-REM.

您将开始进入非快速眼动睡眠的浅阶段。

Then you'll go down into the deeper stages of non-REM sleep, and you'll stay there, and after about 45, 50, 60 minutes, you'll start to rise back up again, and then you'll pop up, and you'll have a short REM sleep period.

然后你会进入更深的非快速眼动睡眠阶段，你会停留在那里，大约 45、50、60 分钟后，你会开始再次上升，然后你会弹出，你将有一个短暂的快速眼动睡眠期。

And then back down you go again, down into non-REM sleep and up into REM sleep.

然后再往下走，向下进入非快速眼动睡眠，向上进入快速眼动睡眠。

And as I said, you cycle through that on average about 90 minutes, but I'll come back to that.

正如我所说，你平均需要大约 90 分钟循环浏览一遍，但我会回到这个话题。

What's interesting, however, is the ratio of non-REM to REM within your 90-minute cycle is not stable.

然而有趣的是，90 分钟周期内非快速眼动睡眠与快速眼动睡眠的比例并不稳定。

And what I mean is as you move across the night, the domination of those two types of sleep within the 90-minute cycle changes such that in the first half of the night, the majority of those 90-minute cycles are comprised of lots of deep non-REM sleep but very little REM sleep.

我的意思是，当你在夜间移动时，这两种类型的睡眠在 90 分钟周期内的主导地位会发生变化，因此在前半夜，90 分钟周期中的大部分由大量深度非快速眼动睡眠组成，但快速眼动睡眠却很少。

But as we push through to the second half of the night, now that ratio balance, that seesaw balance shifts over, and instead, we have much more rapid eye movement sleep and very little deep sleep.

但当我们熬到后半夜时，比例平衡、跷跷板平衡就会发生转变，取而代之的是，我们有更多的快速眼动睡眠和很少的深度睡眠。

So when people think about, okay, I just go to sleep, I lose consciousness, my brain is still.

所以当人们想到，好吧，我只是去睡觉，我失去了知觉，我的大脑是静止的。

Firstly, nothing further from the truth could be the case in terms of your sleep.

首先，就睡眠而言，事实并非如此。

Second, your sleep has a very specific pattern that has consequences to real life.

其次，您的睡眠有一种非常特定的模式，会对现实生活产生影响。

So let's say that you're someone who normally gives yourself an eight-hour sleep opportunity in bed.

假设您通常会给自己提供八小时的床上睡眠时间。

But the next morning, based on what I've just told you, you say, "Okay, well, I'm going to get a jump start on the day," or, "I've got an early morning flight." So I'm just going to come up with numbers here.

但第二天早上，根据我刚才告诉你的内容，你会说，“好吧，好吧，我要开始新的一天”，或者“我要赶早班飞机”。所以我只想在这里提出一些数字。

I'm not suggesting that this is the ideal sleep schedule by any means, but just to make the numbers simple.

我并不是说这就是理想的睡眠时间表，只是为了让数字变得简单。

Let's say someone normally goes to bed at midnight and wakes up at 8:00.

假设某人通常在午夜睡觉并在 8:00 起床。

So there's their eight-hour opportunity.

所以他们有八小时的机会。

But today, they're going to wake up at 6:00 a.m.

但今天，他们将在早上 6:00 起床。

rather than 8:00 a.m.

而不是上午 8:00

to get this push on the day.

当天就得到这个推动。

How much sleep have they lost?

他们失去了多少睡眠？

Well, technically, they've lost two hours of their eight hours, so they've lost 25%.

嗯，从技术上来说，他们在 8 个小时中损失了两个小时，所以他们损失了 25%。

But that's not entirely true.

但这并不完全正确。

They may have lost 25% of their total sleep, but because of the strange structure of deep sleep first and then REM sleep later, they may have lost 60%, 70%, maybe 80% of their REM sleep.

他们可能失去了总睡眠的 25%，但由于先是深度睡眠，然后是快速眼动睡眠的奇怪结构，他们可能失去了 60%、70%，甚至 80% 的快速眼动睡眠。

So I only make this point because understanding how sleep is structured can have consequences.

所以我提出这一点只是因为了解睡眠的结构会产生后果。

I will come back to the 90 minutes, though.

不过，我会回到 90 分钟。

It's fascinating.

这很有趣。

We've often, and some people probably have heard this before, it's a 90-minute cycle.

我们经常（有些人可能以前听说过）这是一个 90 分钟的周期。

Well, there's huge variability.

嗯，存在巨大的可变性。

Some people can have a sleep cycle on average that's maybe 75 minutes, others 120 minutes.

有些人的平均睡眠周期可能为 75 分钟，有些人则为 120 分钟。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is it consistent with an individual?

是否与个人相符？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

It is relatively stable within an individual.

它在个体内部是相对稳定的。

So I would say that the size of the difference from one individual to the next is much bigger than the size of the difference within an individual from one night to the next, to the next.

所以我想说，一个人与另一个人之间的差异的大小比一个人内部从一个晚上到下一个晚上的差异的大小要大得多。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Not unlike a healthy menstrual cycle in a woman-

与女性健康的月经周期没有什么不同——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Correct

正确

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

which can range from As short as 24 days to 31 days and still be considered a healthy cycle that's regular.

周期可以短至 24 天到 31 天，但仍然被认为是一个有规律的健康周期。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it will change across the lifespan, of course.

当然，它会在整个生命周期中发生变化。

But for a good number of years, it's going to be pretty consistent within a given woman.

但在很长一段时间里，对于特定的女性来说，这种情况将非常一致。

And yet between women, it can vary quite a bit.

然而，在女性之间，情况可能会有很大差异。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Immensely.

非常大。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And what's also interesting is that speaking about some sex-specific things, there are sex differences.

而且有趣的是，谈论一些特定于性别的事情时，存在性别差异。

So on average, men, if you look at them, will have a sleep cycle that's about 15 to 20 minutes longer than women, which on a 90-minute average is actually quite a lot.

因此，平均而言，男性的睡眠周期比女性长约 15 至 20 分钟，而平均 90 分钟的睡眠周期实际上相当长。

And I bring this point up because you may have seen some of those sort of claims or devices out there.

我提出这一点是因为您可能已经看到了其中一些此类声明或设备。

Well, firstly, probably on social media, and people send me these things and say, "Is this true?" Which is, you really have to structure your wake-up time at these very distinct 90-minute on the clock, when the clock strikes the 90-minute midnight, that's when you have to be waking up, and you should set your alarm.

嗯，首先，可能是在社交媒体上，人们向我发送这些东西并说，“这是真的吗？”也就是说，你确实必须将起床时间安排在时钟上这些非常独特的 90 分钟，当时钟敲响 90 分钟的午夜时，那就是你必须起床的时间，你应该设置闹钟。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

You'll tell me that it's wrong, presumably, but the rationale of those devices is that one would be better off waking up at the end of a 90-minute cycle as opposed to in the middle of a 90-minute cycle, even if it means getting less total sleep.

你可能会告诉我，这可能是错误的，但这些设备的基本原理是，人们在 90 分钟周期结束时醒来会比在 90 分钟周期中间醒来更好，即使这意味着总睡眠时间会减少。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because the argument is that waking up at the end of a 90-minute cycle allows one to be more alert upon waking.

因为争论认为，在 90 分钟周期结束时醒来可以让人在醒来时更加警觉。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Right.

对。

There's something uniquely special about the completion of a 90-minute cycle that will have you ejected out of sleep feeling like an Energizer bunny kind of.

完成 90 分钟的周期有一种独特的感觉，它会让您从睡梦中醒来，感觉像一只活力兔子。

That's some of the claims that they-

这是他们的一些说法——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And if I were to ask you now-

如果我现在问你——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

But that's nonsense

但这是无稽之谈

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

true or false?

是真是假？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

False.

错误的。

So sleep for as much as you possibly can sleep.

因此，尽可能多地睡觉。

Don't terminate that sleep artificially on the basis of anyone telling you that there is this kind of Da Vinci Code magic 90 minutes.

不要因为有人告诉你有这种达芬奇密码魔法90分钟而人为地终止睡眠。

That's unfortunately not true.

不幸的是，事实并非如此。

And I've been guilty of saying, "It's a 90-minute cycle," and repeating that.

我一直很内疚地说：“这是一个 90 分钟的周期”，然后又重复了一遍。

So if I didn't know any better, I would believe that.

所以如果我不知道更多的话，我就会相信这一点。

So I'm not trying to chastise anyone.

所以我并不是想惩罚任何人。

I'm just simply saying be aware of that and don't worry, don't stress about this unique 90-minute cycle.

我只是说要注意这一点，不要担心，不要对这个独特的 90 分钟周期感到压力。

And there are some products out there that say they're going to time you on your 90-minute cycle and wake you up.

有些产品声称它们会按照 90 分钟的周期为您计时并叫醒您。

I would probably stay a little bit clear of some of those.

我可能会对其中一些保持清醒。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What about going back to sleep?

回去睡觉怎么办？

You said to get as much sleep as possible.

你说要尽可能多睡觉。

If I get six hours of sleep and then wake up and I feel like I could go back to sleep, would I be better off going back to sleep, provided that my work schedule allows for that?

如果我睡了六个小时，然后醒来，我觉得我可以回去睡觉，如果我的工作安排允许的话，我再回去睡觉会更好吗？

Or is it the case that after you've gotten a certain amount of sleep, that's a good idea to get up and go?

或者，在您获得一定时间的睡眠后，起床走动是个好主意吗？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

I would say that if you feel as though there's still more sleep in you-

我想说的是，如果你感觉自己还有更多睡眠——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

There is .

有。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

I love that this has become biographical instantly.

我喜欢这立即成为传记。

It's going to be a good episode when that happens.

当这种情况发生时，这将是一个很好的插曲。

I would say hold tight, stay in bed with an asterisk that I'll come back to, and see if you can get back to sleep.

我会说坚持住，躺在床上，我会回来，看看你是否能重新入睡。

And we can speak about different ways of helping you do that.

我们可以讨论帮助您做到这一点的不同方法。

But the reason I put a slight asterisk there is the following.

但我在这里加一个星号的原因如下。

If you're then in bed for the next 45, 50 minutes wide awake, the danger, and it doesn't happen to everyone, but the danger is that you start to associate this thing called your bed with this thing called wakefulness-

如果接下来的 45、50 分钟你都在床上保持清醒，那么危险，而且并不是每个人都会发生这种情况，但危险在于你开始将这个叫做你的床的东西与这个叫做清醒的东西联系起来 -

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

毫米

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

and not sleep.

并且不睡觉。

And one of the things that we do in cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia is we try to prevent you from spending long periods of time awake.

我们在失眠认知行为疗法中所做的事情之一就是尝试阻止您长时间保持清醒。

And I would say it's probably about a 25-minute rule of thumb.

我想说这可能是 25 分钟的经验法则。

It's not a rule, it's a rule of thumb.

这不是规则，而是经验法则。

If after about 25 minutes, you just can't seem to catch it, and this is happening frequently, I would just be mindful of you then starting to build a bonded association in your brain that your bed is also the place of being awake.

如果大约 25 分钟后，你似乎无法理解它，而这种情况经常发生，我就会留意你，然后开始在你的大脑中建立一个紧密的联系，即你的床也是清醒的地方。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

The analogy would be you would never sit at the dinner table waiting to get hungry, so why would you lie in bed waiting to get sleepy?

打个比方，你永远不会坐在餐桌旁等着挨饿，那你为什么要躺在床上等着犯困呢？

And the answer is that you shouldn't.

答案是你不应该这样做。

And so we need to break that association.

所以我们需要打破这种联系。

Now, there's nothing stopping you, however, from saying, "There's still sleep in me.

然而现在，没有什么能阻止你说：“我内心仍然在睡觉。

I know that there is.

我知道有。

So I'm just going to get out of bed, go to a different room.

所以我要起床，去另一个房间。

I'm just going to read a book, listen to a podcast, and then only when I feel sleepy, I'm going to go back to bed because my schedule allows for it." That's the best way I would tell you if you still think there's sleep there on the table to try and get it back.

我只会读一本书，听一个播客，然后只有当我感到困的时候，我才会回去睡觉，因为我的日程安排允许。”如果你仍然认为桌子上有睡觉来尝试把它拿回来，这是我告诉你的最好方法。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's immensely valuable, knowing that there's sort of a conditioned place effect of being awake in bed.

这是非常有价值的，因为知道在床上醒来会产生某种条件性位置效应。

I must say, I get pretty good sleep most of the time.

我必须说，我大部分时间都睡得很好。

There have been phases of life, including recently, where sleep has been challenging, and I notice as I head toward the bed to go to sleep recently, the words in my mind are, "Here's the battleground." Like it's going to be a night of-

人生的某些阶段，包括最近，睡眠都充满挑战，我注意到，当我最近走向床睡觉时，我脑海中的一句话是：“这是战场。”就好像这将是一个——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

That's right

没错

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

going to sleep, waking up, going to sleep, waking up.

睡觉，醒来，睡觉，醒来。

We'll get to this business of continuity of sleep a little bit later, so we don't have to go into that now, but-

我们稍后会讨论睡眠连续性的问题，所以我们现在不必讨论这个问题，但是-

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

I should also note, by the way, that for some people, when I speak with them, and it's just because you mentioned it, it's beautiful, they will be saying, "I'm so surprised because I am watching television, and I'm falling asleep on the couch, and then I get into bed, and I'm wide awake, and I don't know why." And that's because, in part, you've built this connection in your brain.

顺便说一句，我还应该指出，对于某些人来说，当我与他们交谈时，仅仅因为你提到了这一点，这很美妙，他们就会说，“我很惊讶，因为我正在看电视，我在沙发上睡着了，然后我上床，我完全清醒，我不知道为什么。”这在一定程度上是因为你已经在大脑中建立了这种联系。

And when you go into the bedroom, that's what we try to do with cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia.

当你走进卧室时，这就是我们尝试用认知行为疗法治疗失眠的方法。

You spoke about it as a battleground, that it's almost this adversarial thing, which in some ways infers that at that point you feel as though your sleep controls you And it is a miserable feeling.

你把它说成是一个战场，这几乎是一种对抗性的事情，这在某种程度上表明，在这一点上，你感觉好像你的睡眠控制了你，这是一种痛苦的感觉。

And gradually over time, what we would do is work with someone, and at that point now you control your sleep, your sleep doesn't control you, and that is such a freedom when you get it.

渐渐地，随着时间的推移，我们要做的就是与某人合作，此时你可以控制你的睡眠，你的睡眠不会控制你，当你获得它时，这就是一种自由。

But sorry, I interrupted you.

但抱歉，我打断了你。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, no. I interrupted you, but thank you.

哦，不。我打断了你的话，不过还是谢谢你。

Yeah, I've prided myself my whole life on being able to sleep anytime, anywhere.

是的，我一生都为自己能够随时随地睡觉而感到自豪。

I learned it from my bulldog, Costello, or maybe that's what brought us together because he certainly had that trait.

我从我的斗牛犬科斯特洛那里学到了这一点，也许这就是我们走到一起的原因，因为他确实有这种特质。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

I'm so sad he's not here around anymore with us, because I would've loved to-- He feels like he is the best sleep ambassador, if there's a poster child for good sleep.

我很伤心他不再和我们在一起了，因为我很想——他觉得自己是最好的睡眠大使，如果有一个良好睡眠的典范的话。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, he's here in spirit, sleeping.

嗯，他的精神在这里，正在睡觉。

So this is interesting, and I think it's important for people to hear.

所以这很有趣，我认为人们听到这很重要。

If you can't fall asleep or if you wake up in the middle of the night and you can't fall back asleep pretty quickly, after about 20 minutes or so, probably best to get out of bed.

如果您无法入睡，或者您在半夜醒来，并且在大约 20 分钟左右后无法很快重新入睡，那么最好起床。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So these 90-minute-ish cycles that include different types of sleep prompt me to ask, if you were to describe the basic characteristics of each of those four stages of sleep, and especially the deeper stages, three and four, and REM sleep, not just at the level of rapid eye movements during REM sleep, but in terms of the types of dreams or the characteristics of kind of bodily state.

因此，这些包含不同类型睡眠的 90 分钟左右的周期促使我问，您是否要描述这四个睡眠阶段的基本特征，尤其是更深层次的第三阶段和第四阶段以及快速眼动睡眠，不仅是快速眼动睡眠期间快速眼球运动的水平，而且是梦的类型或身体状态的特征。

Maybe you just flesh out the physiology and neurochemistry and touch on kind of the dream features associated with each of these different stages of sleep.

也许您只是充实了生理学和神经化学，并触及了与每个不同睡眠阶段相关的梦的特征。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

This just gets so exciting to me.

这让我非常兴奋。

And even now when I go into the lab or I look at sleep traces from my sleep center, I'm still in awe, in bewildered awe of what the brain does.

即使现在，当我走进实验室或从睡眠中心观察睡眠痕迹时，我仍然对大脑的行为感到敬畏，感到困惑。

So as we start to fall into those lighter stages of sleep, once you get past stage one sleep, which is sort of almost the shallows where you're just wading out, then you go into stage two sleep.

因此，当我们开始进入较浅的睡眠阶段时，一旦你度过了第一阶段睡眠（这几乎是你刚刚涉水而出的浅滩），那么你就会进入第二阶段睡眠。

And one of the hallmarks of stage two non-REM sleep are something called sleep spindles.

第二阶段非快速眼动睡眠的标志之一是所谓的睡眠纺锤波。

And the way that we measure sleep in a laboratory, by the way, is that we place-- You look like a spaghetti monster.

顺便说一句，我们在实验室测量睡眠的方式是——你看起来像一个意大利面怪物。

You've got all of these electrodes on your head, you've got things above your eyes, and you've got things on your body.

所有这些电极都在你的头上，你的眼睛上方有东西，你的身体上也有东西。

And we're essentially measuring three main signals, electrical brain activity, we're measuring muscle activity, and we're measuring eye movement activity.

我们本质上是在测量三个主要信号：脑电活动、肌肉活动和眼球运动活动。

And I'll explain why those three things are necessary for me to know, are you awake?

我会解释为什么我有必要知道这三件事，你醒了吗？

Are you in sleep?

你在睡觉吗？

And if you're in sleep, which stage of sleep you're in.

如果您处于睡眠状态，则您处于睡眠的哪个阶段。

So going into that stage two non-REM sleep, we've got these sleep spindles.

因此，进入第二阶段非快速眼动睡眠时，我们会出现这些睡眠纺锤波。

And at that point, I'm looking at the electrical signals from your brain, what we call the EEG or the electroencephalogram.

那时，我正在观察来自大脑的电信号，我们称之为脑电图或脑电图。

And these sleep spindles are these beautiful, short, synchronous bursts of electrical activity, and they last for about a second to two seconds, maybe a little longer.

这些睡眠纺锤波是美丽的、短暂的、同步的电活动爆发，它们持续大约一到两秒，也许更长一点。

And they are bursting at a what we call a frequency of somewhere between 12 to 15 hertz.

它们的爆发频率为我们所说的 12 到 15 赫兹之间。

And what that means is that these brain waves are going up and down 12 to 15 times per second.

这意味着这些脑电波每秒上下 12 到 15 次。

That's what our measure is, 12 to 15 hertz.

这就是我们的测量值，12 到 15 赫兹。

And then you go back and your brain at that point has started to slow down.

然后你回去，你的大脑在那时就开始变慢了。

Now, when we're awake, your brainwave activity can be going up and down maybe 20, 30, 40 times per second.

现在，当我们醒着时，您的脑电波活动可能每秒上下 20、30、40 次。

It's very fast and frenetic.

它非常快而且疯狂。

It's actually very chaotic electrical brain activity.

这实际上是非常混乱的脑电活动。

But as we're going into these lighter stages of sleep, then the brain starts to slow down.

但当我们进入较浅的睡眠阶段时，大脑的反应速度就会开始减慢。

And at that point in stage two non-REM, it's maybe going up and down just four to eight times per second.

在非快速眼动第二阶段的那个时候，它可能每秒只上下四到八次。

So a huge deceleration in terms of brainwave activity.

因此脑电波活动大幅减速。

But occasionally, you'll get these sort of going , and then .

但偶尔，你会遇到这样的情况，然后……

You'll get these beautiful bursts of these sleep spindles.

你会得到这些睡眠纺锤波的美丽爆发。

I actually did, I've never published it publicly.

我确实做到了，但我从未公开发表过。

We did a project called the Sonification of Sleep, and we took these electrical signals and then we turned them into sound waves.

我们做了一个名为“睡眠声音化”的项目，我们获取这些电信号，然后将它们转化为声波。

And you can actually hear this beautiful sort of .

你实际上可以听到这种美妙的声音。

It's almost this beautiful throbbing of a slowdown in your brain, and then you'll hear these spindles.

这几乎是你的大脑减速的美妙搏动，然后你会听到这些纺锤音。

Almost sounds like that beautiful, delicious rolling R in Hindi, so .

听起来几乎就像印地语中那个美丽、美味的滚动 R，所以。

It's just wonderful.

这真是太棒了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm not sure I can do that R.

我不确定我能做到这一点 R.

How's it go?

怎么样？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah, not too bad.

是的，还不错。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Okay.

好的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Not too bad.

还不错。

We're erring on the side of feline, but that's okay, Andrew.

我们站在猫科动物一边犯了错误，但没关系，安德鲁。

So coming back to, I'm so sorry.

所以说回来，我很抱歉。

Coming back to sleep, we've gone into light stage two as I'm trying to desperately hold it together, and we're going down into deeper non-REM sleep.

回到睡眠中，我们已经进入了第二阶段的轻度睡眠，因为我拼命地试图将其保持在一起，并且我们将进入更深的非快速眼动睡眠。

Now something spectacular happens, and this is where I just almost lose it every time I see it.

现在，一些壮观的事情发生了，这就是我每次看到它时几乎失去的地方。

The brain now goes back down and its speed of oscillation, of going up and down, is maybe just one or two times per second.

大脑现在又回到下降状态，其上下振荡的速度可能只是每秒一两次。

It's incredibly slow.

速度慢得令人难以置信。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And this is whole brain activity or localized activity?

这是全脑活动还是局部活动？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

So we'll come onto this.

那么我们就来讨论这个问题。

At first, the way we would measure it is just from these electrodes, which are measuring hundreds of thousands of brain cells underneath them.

起初，我们测量它的方式只是通过这些电极，这些电极正在测量它们下面的数十万个脑细胞。

So a good analogy would be, let's say you're at a football stadium and it's Stanford playing Berkeley in American football.

因此，一个很好的类比是，假设您在一个足球场，斯坦福大学正在与伯克利大学进行美式足球比赛。

And what we've got is a single microphone dangling over the middle of the stadium.

我们所拥有的是一个悬挂在体育场中央的麦克风。

And that microphone is picking up the summed voices of the 60,000, 70,000 people underneath.

那个麦克风正在收集下面 60,000、70,000 人的声音。

It's the same thing with when we place an electrode on your head.

这与我们将电极放在你的头上是一样的。

You're measuring the summed activity of hundreds of thousands of neurons underneath.

您正在测量下方数十万个神经元的活动总和。

But we've now started to use maybe 100, 200 electrodes on your head, and we can pick these up in local territories of your brain.

但我们现在已经开始在你的头上使用大约 100、200 个电极，我们可以在你大脑的局部区域拾取这些电极。

But That beautiful, powerful slow brainwaves that we're getting during deep non-REM stages three and four, it's not just slow activity.

但是，我们在深度非快速眼动阶段第三和第四阶段获得的美丽而强大的缓慢脑电波，不仅仅是缓慢的活动。

You would think, okay, that sounds like the brain is dormant.

你可能会想，好吧，这听起来像是大脑处于休眠状态。

No, no. The brain at that point, the size of the waves is almost quadruple, maybe 10X the size of the brainwaves when you are awake.

不，不。此时的大脑，电波的大小几乎是你清醒时脑电波大小的四倍，甚至可能是你清醒时脑电波大小的十倍。

Why is that?

这是为什么？

Meaning that the brainwaves are going up and down very slowly, but the size of them, which is what we call the amplitude, that is now huge.

这意味着脑电波的上下移动非常缓慢，但它们的大小，也就是我们所说的振幅，现在是巨大的。

It's epic.

这是史诗般的。

So think about it.

所以想一想。

You're on the beach, and when you're awake, the waves are coming in very, very quickly, but they're small waves, and they're coming in in a random fashion.

你在海滩上，当你醒来时，海浪来得非常非常快，但它们都是小浪，而且以随机的方式到来。

But deep slow wave sleep are these kind of epic things that would happen in Hawaii, where you just get these 20, 30-foot waves, and they're coming in very slowly, but they are epically big.

但深度慢波睡眠是在夏威夷会发生的史诗般的事情，在那里你会得到这些 20、30 英尺的波浪，它们来得很慢，但它们却非常大。

That is deep slow wave sleep.

那就是深度慢波睡眠。

And then what happens is riding on top of those big slow waves are these sleep spindles.

然后发生的事情是这些睡眠纺锤波位于这些大的慢波之上。

They just keep coming.

他们只是不断地来。

So according to the Sleep Sonification Project, what you would hear now, these slow waves would be That's the slow wave and the sleep spindle.

因此，根据睡眠声音化项目，您现在听到的这些慢波将是慢波和睡眠纺锤波。

What is it that happens in your brain, though, to your question, to produce these slow waves?

但是，对于你的问题，你的大脑中发生了什么来产生这些慢波？

Well, let's go back to the football stadium analogy.

好吧，让我们回到足球场的类比。

There before the game, that's wakefulness.

比赛之前，那就是清醒。

Everyone is having a different conversation in a different part of the stadium, and you just get this kind of incoherent sort of blabber that's going on.

每个人都在体育场的不同地方进行不同的谈话，你只会听到这种语无伦次的胡言乱语。

That's wake.

就这样醒了。

Your brain is doing different things at different sort of locations of the brain, processing different information at different moments in time, and that's the fast, frenetic activity of wakefulness.

你的大脑在不同的位置做不同的事情，在不同的时刻处理不同的信息，这就是清醒时快速、疯狂的活动。

When you go into deep sleep, all of a sudden, for reasons that we still don't quite understand, hundreds of thousands of brain cells in your cortex all decide to unite in their singular voice of firing, and they all fire together, and they all go silent together.

当你进入深度睡眠时，突然之间，由于我们仍然不太明白的原因，你皮层中的数十万个脑细胞决定以它们独特的声音联合起来，一起放电，然后一起沉默。

They all fire together, and they all go silent together.

他们一起开火，又一起沉默。

And that's what's producing these huge, big, powerful waves.

这就是产生这些巨大、强大的波浪的原因。

So the analogy in the football stadium would be at this point now, and I'll come across to your university, Stanford is winning, and the crowd is buoyant, and all of a sudden, the Stanford crowd is singing, "Berkeley sucks.

因此，足球场上的类比现在就在这一点上，我会遇到你们的大学，斯坦福大学正在获胜，人群充满活力，突然之间，斯坦福大学的人群开始唱歌，“伯克利糟透了。

Berkeley sucks." And they're all uniting.

伯克利很糟糕。”他们都团结起来。

The whole stadium cries out at the same time and then goes silent at the same time.

整个体育场同时发出一声尖叫，然后又同时归于寂静。

It's an epic display of coordinated neural activity in a way that we don't see in any other brain state.

这是协调神经活动的史诗般的展示，这是我们在任何其他大脑状态下都看不到的。

It's phenomenal.

这是惊人的。

It's just in awe.

这只是出于敬畏。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You answered the question I was going to ask, which is, does the pattern of brain activity that you just described occur in similar or identical form during any waking states?

你回答了我要问的问题，即你刚才描述的大脑活动模式在任何清醒状态下是否以相似或相同的形式发生？

And I think you just said the answer is no. Meaning, if I understand correctly, this is a very, very specialized brain state unique to sleep, unique to a specific portion of sleep.

我想你刚才说的答案是否定的。意思是，如果我理解正确的话，这是一种非常非常特殊的睡眠特有的大脑状态，对于睡眠的特定部分来说是特有的。

And that begs the question, what is it doing?

这就引出了一个问题，它在做什么？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

So it turns out that all of these stages that we'll describe, different stages of sleep do different things for your brain and your body at different times of night.

所以事实证明，我们将描述的所有这些阶段，不同的睡眠阶段在夜间的不同时间为您的大脑和身体做不同的事情。

And it's very understandable that people sort of in the public will come over to me and say, "How do I get more deep sleep?" Or, "How do I get more REM sleep?" And my question back to them firstly is, why do you want more REM sleep?

公众中的人们会过来问我：“我怎样才能获得更深度的睡眠？”这是可以理解的。或者，“我如何获得更多的快速眼动睡眠？”我首先问他们的问题是，为什么你想要更多的快速眼动睡眠？

And they'll say, "Well, isn't that the good stuff?" And I will say, well, it turns out that they're all important.

他们会说：“这不是好东西吗？”我会说，好吧，事实证明它们都很重要。

You need all of them.

你需要所有这些。

But I'll speak about non-REM sleep functions first, and then I should unpack REM sleep and then explain its functions.

但我会先谈谈非快速眼动睡眠功能，然后我应该解开快速眼动睡眠并解释其功能。

But as an overview, what we know is that during deep sleep, first you switch over in terms of your body's nervous system to what we call the parasympathetic nervous system that you've spoken about a lot before, which is this kind of very quiescent, calming state of your body's nervous system.

但总的来说，我们知道，在深度睡眠期间，您身体的神经系统首先会切换到您之前多次谈到的副交感神经系统，这是您身体神经系统的一种非常安静、平静的状态。

The sympathetic nervous system, which is very poorly named because it's anything but sympathetic, it's very aggravating and activating, and when we're awake, that seems to be somewhat more dominant depending on what state you're in.

交感神经系统，这个名字非常不好命名，因为它根本不是交感神经系统，它非常令人烦恼和活跃，当我们醒着时，它似乎更占主导地位，具体取决于你所处的状态。

But in sleep, especially in deep sleep, you shift over into this very strong parasympathetic, quiescent, calm state, and that instigates, together with other things.

但在睡眠中，尤其是在深度睡眠中，你会进入这种非常强烈的副交感神经、静止、平静的状态，并且这会与其他事情一起引发。

And we've demonstrated, by the way, that we published a paper probably about a year and a half ago, that these slow waves and these sleep spindles and the coordination of them, how well that they're coordinated, seems to instigate a signal down into your body's, what we call the autonomic nervous system, which carries both the sympathetic and the sympathetic nervous system inside of it and forces you over into a parasympathetic state.

顺便说一句，我们已经证明，我们大约一年半前发表了一篇论文，这些慢波和睡眠纺锤体以及它们的协调，它们的协调程度，似乎会向你的身体发出一个信号，我们称之为自主神经系统，它内部携带交感神经和交感神经系统，迫使你进入副交感神经状态。

So these brainwaves, one of the things that they seem to be doing is transacting a message to your body's nervous system to say, "Calm down.

所以这些脑电波，它们似乎正在做的事情之一就是向你身体的神经系统传递一条信息，说：“冷静下来。

Quiet down." What then happens, firstly, what we see is your cardiovascular system ramps down.

安静点。”接下来会发生什么，首先，我们看到的是您的心血管系统逐渐下降。

Deep sleep, you could argue, is almost the very best form of blood pressure medication that you could ever wish for.

您可能会说，深度睡眠几乎是您所希望的最好的降压药物。

It's beautiful.

很美丽。

Then something happens within your immune system.

然后你的免疫系统就会发生一些事情。

We're starting to unpack this, but we still don't quite know why.

我们开始解开这个问题，但我们仍然不太清楚为什么。

These pulsing deep slow brainwaves seem to be a trigger for instigating two things for your immune system.

这些脉动的深慢脑电波似乎可以触发您的免疫系统发生两件事。

Firstly, it stimulates the restocking of the weaponry in your immune arsenal so that you wake up the next day, and you are a more robust immune individual.

首先，它会刺激您补充免疫武器库中的武器，以便您第二天醒来时，您会成为一个更强大的免疫个体。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So these are things like T cells, natural killer cells-

这些是 T 细胞、自然杀伤细胞——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Correct

正确

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

things of that sort.

诸如此类的事情。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

All of that good stuff.

所有这些好东西。

But what's also interesting, and there's a more recent discovery It's not just that your body has put back all of this armory in place and, in fact, amplified it, but your body's sensitivity to those immune factors has also increased.

但同样有趣的是，最近有一个发现，不仅您的身体已将所有这些军械库放回原位，而且事实上还增强了它，而且您的身体对这些免疫因素的敏感性也增加了。

So you've restocked the weaponry, and you've made your body more sensitive to those immune signals.

所以你补充了武器，并且让你的身体对这些免疫信号更加敏感。

And that's why we will see in probably later discussions, your immune system can start to become really markedly impaired when you're not getting enough sleep.

这就是为什么我们会在稍后的讨论中看到，当您睡眠不足时，您的免疫系统可能会开始变得非常明显受损。

So that's a second benefit of the deep sleep brainwave patterns.

这是深度睡眠脑电波模式的第二个好处。

The third benefit that we've realized is that it's very good at regulating your metabolic system, and specifically, your ability to control your blood sugar and your blood glucose.

我们意识到的第三个好处是，它非常擅长调节您的代谢系统，特别是您控制血糖和血糖的能力。

And if we selectively deprive you of just deep sleep alone, and we can do this now very cleverly.

如果我们有选择地剥夺你的深度睡眠，我们现在就可以非常聪明地做到这一点。

It's not as though I see you going into deep sleep, and I go into your bedroom, and I wake you up, and then you go back to sleep, which is how we used to do it sort of 10 years ago.

这并不是说我看到你进入深度睡眠，然后我走进你的卧室，叫醒你，然后你又回去睡觉，这是我们 10 年前的做法。

Now we can use a very clever method where we play auditory tones to your brain, but they are of a level that will not wake you up.

现在我们可以使用一种非常聪明的方法，向您的大脑播放听觉音调，但它们的级别不会唤醒您。

It's what's called a sub-awakening threshold, and we determine that.

这就是所谓的亚觉醒阈值，我们确定它。

And by playing those tones, it forces the brain to resurface out of deep sleep.

通过播放这些音调，它迫使大脑从深度睡眠中苏醒。

So you will still sleep a total eight hours, but I will have selectively excised just your deep sleep.

所以你仍然会睡总共八个小时，但我会选择性地去掉你的深度睡眠。

And when I do that, sure enough, your blood sugar ability, your ability to control your blood sugar, I should say, is impaired really quite demonstrably, and it's for at least two reasons.

当我这样做时，毫无疑问，你的血糖能力，你控制血糖的能力，我应该说，确实明显受损，这至少有两个原因。

The initial thing is that your pancreas, when it sees this spike in blood sugar, it normally releases something called insulin, and that insulin is a trigger to your body to say, "Start absorbing the blood sugar so we don't get this toxic, or we don't maintain this toxic spike in blood sugar." Your pancreas, when you are underslept, and specifically when you're not getting enough deep sleep, does not release the appropriate amount of insulin.

首先，当你的胰腺看到血糖飙升时，它通常会释放一种叫做胰岛素的物质，而胰岛素会触发你的身体说：“开始吸收血糖，这样我们就不会中毒，或者我们不会维持这种有毒的血糖飙升。”当您睡眠不足时，特别是当您没有获得足够的深度睡眠时，您的胰腺不会释放适量的胰岛素。

Worse still, what we found is that selectively depriving you of deep sleep means that what little insulin is released, the cells in your body become less receptive to that insulin.

更糟糕的是，我们发现，选择性地剥夺您的深度睡眠意味着释放的胰岛素很少，您体内的细胞对胰岛素的接受能力也会降低。

So you're not releasing enough of this chemical to say, "Start absorbing blood sugar," and the cells that stick a straw out into your bloodstream, and they suck up the blood sugar, they don't respond to the insulin anymore.

所以你没有释放足够的这种化学物质来说“开始吸收血糖”，细胞将一根吸管伸入你的血液中，它们吸收了血糖，它们不再对胰岛素做出反应。

So on both sides of the blood sugar regulation equation, you become impaired.

因此，血糖调节方程的两边都会受到损害。

And then I can give you an example upstairs in the brain.

然后我可以给你举一个楼上大脑里的例子。

One of the things that we found, and we'll discuss, is that deep sleep helps regulate your learning and your memory functions.

我们发现并将讨论的一件事是深度睡眠有助于调节您的学习和记忆功能。

It helps start to move memories around in your brain and protect them and shift them from short term to long term.

它有助于开始在大脑中移动记忆并保护它们并将它们从短期转变为长期。

Deep sleep, however, we've now discovered, is critical for de-risking your Alzheimer's trajectory.

然而，我们现在发现，深度睡眠对于降低患阿尔茨海默病的风险至关重要。

It's during deep sleep when you have a cleansing system in the brain that starts washing away the toxic proteins that build up by way of wakefulness.

在深度睡眠期间，大脑中的清洁系统开始清洗清醒时积累的有毒蛋白质。

And two of those toxic components are something that we call beta amyloid and tau protein, which are fundamental ingredients in the Alzheimer's disease brain equation.

其中两种有毒成分被我们称为 β 淀粉样蛋白和 tau 蛋白，它们是阿尔茨海默病大脑方程的基本成分。

So certainly, I could then understand based on that litany of things that I've just provided, and those are only a few of what deep sleep is doing.

当然，我可以根据我刚才提供的一连串事情来理解，而这些只是深度睡眠所做的一小部分。

You could imagine that's the stuff that I want to get and that's the thing that I need to optimize for.

你可以想象这就是我想要得到的东西，这就是我需要优化的东西。

Not true, because there is REM sleep.

不正确，因为有快速眼动睡眠。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。

AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also contains adaptogens and is designed to meet all of your foundational nutritional needs.

AG1 是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮料，还含有适应原，旨在满足您的所有基本营养需求。

By now, I'm sure you've all heard me say that I've been taking AG1 since 2012, and indeed, that is true.

到现在为止，我相信你们都听我说过，我从 2012 年就开始服用 AG1，确实如此。

Now, of course, I do consume regular whole foods every day.

当然，现在我每天都会定期食用天然食品。

I strive to get those foods mostly from unprocessed or minimally processed sources.

我努力从未加工或最低限度加工的来源获取这些食物。

However, I do find it hard to get enough servings of fruits and vegetables each day.

然而，我确实发现每天很难获得足够的水果和蔬菜。

So with AG1, I ensure that I get enough of the vitamins, minerals, prebiotic fiber, and other things typically found in fruits or vegetables, and of course, I still make sure to eat fruits and vegetables, and in that way, provide a sort of insurance that I'm getting enough of what I need.

因此，通过 AG1，我确保获得足够的维生素、矿物质、益生元纤维以及水果或蔬菜中常见的其他物质，当然，我仍然确保吃水果和蔬菜，这样就提供了一种保证，确保我获得了足够的所需物质。

In addition, the adaptogens and other micronutrients in AG1 really help buffer against stress and ensure that the cells and organs and tissues of my body are getting the things they need.

此外，AG1 中的适应原和其他微量营养素确实有助于缓冲压力，并确保我身体的细胞、器官和组织得到它们所需的东西。

People often ask me that if they were going to take just one supplement, what that supplement should be, and I always answer AG1.

人们经常问我，如果他们只服用一种补充剂，该补充剂应该是什么，我总是回答 AG1。

If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.

如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。

You'll get five free travel packs plus a year's supply of vitamin D3 K2.

您将获得五个免费旅行包以及一年的维生素 D3 K2 供应。

Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman.

再说一遍，这是 Drinkag1.com/huberman。

Before you talk about REM sleep, what about stages one and two of sleep?

在谈论快速眼动睡眠之前，先谈谈睡眠的第一阶段和第二阶段吗？

Are those just kind of the jog into the sprint that is deep sleep stages three and four?

这些只是进入深度睡眠第三和第四阶段的冲刺吗？

Or if I were to stage the question I'm asking as an experiment, say I'm an undergraduate or graduate student in your lab and I say, "Can we do an experiment where we selectively deprive people of stage one and two sleep only?"

或者，如果我要把我提出的问题作为一个实验，假设我是你们实验室的本科生或研究生，我会说，“我们可以做一个实验，选择性地只剥夺人们第一阶段和第二阶段的睡眠吗？”

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And then, of course, the question becomes what do you put in there instead?

然后，当然，问题就变成了你在里面放了什么？

So there's a bunch of other experiments that one would have to do.

因此，人们还必须做很多其他实验。

But has that experiment ever been done, and if so, what is the consequence of being stage one-two deprived, as opposed to just deep sleep deprived?

但是这个实验曾经做过吗？如果是的话，第一阶段第二阶段被剥夺而不是仅仅被剥夺深度睡眠会产生什么后果？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

So just as you already elegantly demonstrated that stage one selective deprivation is very difficult because it's a de novo thing you have to pass through to get to the other stages of sleep.

正如您已经优雅地证明了第一阶段选择性剥夺是非常困难的，因为这是一个从头开始的过程，您必须经历才能进入睡眠的其他阶段。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is stage one the stage of sleep that I and other people have experienced many times where you're falling asleep and you start to have a dream perhaps about walking or running and then you kick yourself awake?

第一阶段是我和其他人多次经历过的睡眠阶段吗？当你入睡时，你开始做一个可能是关于走路或跑步的梦，然后你把自己踢醒？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

That's right.

没错。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Oh, and I should have explained what happens to stage one.

哦，我应该解释一下第一阶段会发生什么。

I love As we're going into stage one, obviously our eyelids are closed.

我喜欢当我们进入第一阶段时，显然我们的眼皮是闭合的。

But one of the first signs that we know as we're recording, I told you we're recording the electrical activity on the head with these electrodes, but I also said that we're measuring eye movement activity.

但我们在记录时知道的第一个迹象是，我告诉过你我们正在用这些电极记录头部的电活动，但我也说过我们正在测量眼球运动活动。

And as you're going into light stage one non-REM, for reasons that, again, we have no idea why, your eyeballs start to roll in their sockets underneath your eyelids.

当你进入第一阶段非快速眼动睡眠时，由于我们不知道为什么，你的眼球开始在眼睑下方的眼窝中滚动。

That change that we can start to see, we call them slow-rolling eye movements, and they are the hallmark of you entering sleep.

我们可以开始看到的这种变化，我们称之为缓慢滚动的眼球运动，它们是您进入睡眠的标志。

And if you are lucky enough to have a partner, you can see this.

如果你足够幸运有一个合作伙伴，你就能看到这一点。

As they're falling asleep, you will see these bizarre...

当他们入睡时，你会看到这些奇怪的......

Now, granted, if they wake up, usually the relationship is terminated very quickly because they're thinking, "What are you doing?"

现在，当然，如果他们醒来，通常这种关系很快就会终止，因为他们在想，“你在做什么？”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Next time I'm on a plane, if the person next to me-

下次我坐飞机时，如果我旁边的人——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

You do.

你会的。

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

is sleeping, I'm going to be the guy to kind of like, or a mirror.

睡觉时，我会成为一个喜欢的人，或者一面镜子。

Yeah, no, don't do that.

是的，不，不要这样做。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

I'm the only one who gets away with it because I'm a card-carrying sleep scientist.

我是唯一一个侥幸逃脱惩罚的人，因为我是一名名副其实的睡眠科学家。

And even then, yeah, American Airlines sometimes takes umbrage.

即便如此，是的，美国航空公司有时也会感到不快。

So you get these slow rolling eye movements, and the brainwaves start to sort of slow down again.

所以你会看到这些缓慢的眼球运动，脑电波又开始减慢。

But you mentioned something else, and they are called hypnagogic jerks.

但你提到了别的东西，他们被称为催眠性混动。

And as we're going into this first stage of sleep, I told you that the principal stage in which we dream is rapid eye movement sleep.

当我们进入睡眠的第一阶段时，我告诉过你，我们做梦的主要阶段是快速眼动睡眠。

That's not exactly true, because everyone has had this experience that just as you're drifting off, you start to have these little mini dreams, almost sort of diet or dreams lite, L-I-T-E.

这并不完全正确，因为每个人都有过这样的经历，当你入睡时，你开始做这些小梦，几乎是节食或轻梦，L-I-T-E。

And you can almost wake yourself up based on the fracture point of cognition.

而你几乎可以根据认知的断裂点来唤醒自己。

And what I mean is you're thinking, "Okay, so tomorrow I've got to get to the studio.

我的意思是你在想，“好吧，明天我必须去工作室。

I'm interviewing that desperately annoying British guy, Matt Walker." And then there was the elephant in the room with the helicopter wings on its head.

我正在采访那个令人讨厌的英国人马特·沃克。”然后房间里就出现了头顶着直升机机翼的大象。

And you almost just think it wakes you up because you think, "Wait.

你几乎只是认为它把你吵醒了，因为你想，“等等。

What?

什么？

Sorry?

抱歉？

Excuse me?

对不起？

Go back.

回去吧。

Rewind.

倒回。

What just happened?" That's the point at which you've transitioned over into what we call the hypnagogic state, where you can have these hypnagogic dreams, but you also get these jerks.

刚刚发生了什么？”这就是你过渡到我们所说的催眠状态的时刻，你可以做这些催眠梦，但你也会遇到这些抽搐。

We don't fully understand what happens, but what we do understand is that as you're going into sleep, you start to lose different aspects of your sensory perceptual apparatus.

我们并不完全了解发生了什么，但我们确实了解的是，当您进入睡眠状态时，您开始失去感官知觉器官的不同方面。

Not lose in the sense of where did they go and I can't find them, but the processing of those.

丢失的不是它们去了哪里并且我找不到它们，而是它们的处理过程。

Now, many will remain during sleep.

现在，许多人将留在睡眠中。

One of the things that starts to degrade is what we call proprioception, and you've spoken about this before, which is knowing how your body is sort of positioned in space.

开始退化的事情之一就是我们所说的本体感觉，您之前已经谈到过这一点，即了解您的身体在空间中的位置。

So proprioception is fascinating.

所以本体感觉很有趣。

As you're walking with a colleague and you're crossing over a street, have you ever had that feeling where you step off the curb and you're chatting, and all of a sudden you have one of those really ugly wobbles where you kind of, oh.

当你和一位同事一起过马路时，你是否有过这样的感觉：当你走下路边并正在聊天时，突然间你会感到一种非常难看的摇晃，你会觉得，哦。

And it's because you had calculated non-consciously and computationally, you understood where your foot was in space.

这是因为你已经无意识地通过计算进行了计算，你了解了你的脚在空间中的位置。

You understood the velocity force with which it was descending down onto the road below you.

你了解它下降到你下面的道路上时所承受的速度力。

You had miscalculated the distance, and your brain had expected your foot to hit that road at a certain time, and it did not.

你错误地计算了距离，你的大脑预计你的脚会在某个时间踩到那条路，但事实并非如此。

It sends an error signal back up your spinal cord, and that's where you get that oh.

它会向您的脊髓发送错误信号，这就是您得到的信息哦。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, this happened to me just last weekend.

是的，这件事就发生在我上周末。

I was at the San Francisco Zoo, and periodically throughout the landscape of the San Francisco Zoo, they have these kind of squishy surfaces that are seamless with the concrete around them.

我在旧金山动物园，周期性地在旧金山动物园的景观中，它们有这种柔软的表面，与周围的混凝土无缝结合。

I think this is so kids can play on the various sculptures there.

我认为这样孩子们就可以在那里的各种雕塑上玩耍。

And if they fall, it's a little bit more forgiving.

如果他们跌倒了，那就更宽容一些。

So I was just walking across this thing, talking to the person to my left, and I stepped on this now rather squishy surface, and all of a sudden, I was like, "Well, I don't know how to walk across this thing." And I'm like, I've been walking a long period of my life.

So I was just walking across this thing, talking to the person to my left, and I stepped on this now rather squishy surface, and all of a sudden, I was like, "Well, I don't know how to walk across this thing."我想，我一生中已经走过了很长一段时间。

And I really had to pay attention, and then transition back onto the concrete and could stop thinking about it for a moment.

我真的必须集中注意力，然后再回到具体的事情上，暂时停止思考它。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Right.

对。

And you almost then have to stop the conversation that you are having-

然后你几乎必须停止正在进行的谈话-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right

右

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

because it takes over, and you switch from non-conscious proprioceptive, and you switch over.

因为它接管了，你从无意识的本体感受转变过来，然后你就转变了。

So the issue is that when you are lying there awake in bed, you sense the mattress underneath you.

所以问题是，当你清醒地躺在床上时，你会感觉到你下面的床垫。

You sense the support.

你感受到了支持。

You're getting all of that feedback signal that I was telling you was absent when you inappropriately calculated the distance down onto the road.

当你不恰当地计算到路上的距离时，你会收到我告诉你的所有反馈信号。

All of that is in place, and your brain is saying, "Everything's fine." But as we're drifting off into sleep, we start to lose that proprioceptive feedback.

所有这些都已就位，你的大脑会说：“一切都很好。”但当我们逐渐进入睡眠状态时，我们开始失去本体感觉反馈。

Now, normally, that loss of proprioceptive feedback and sensation of what's going on and where my body is, is before the loss of consciousness.

现在，通常情况下，本体感觉反馈的丧失和对正在发生的事情以及我的身体在哪里的感觉的丧失，是在意识丧失之前发生的。

And so you lose consciousness, and that's then thereafter when the loss of proprioception happens, and you don't have this sort of mental freak out of proprioceptive break glass in case of emergency.

所以你失去了意识，然后本体感觉丧失，在紧急情况下你不会因为本体感觉破碎玻璃而产生这种精神异常。

But sometimes the speed with which those things happen changes, and you start to lose the proprioceptive sensation before you fully lose consciousness.

但有时这些事情发生的速度会发生变化，你在完全失去意识之前就开始失去本体感觉。

And at that point, your body says, "Oh my goodness, mattress has just disappeared and I'm falling."

就在那时，你的身体会说：“天哪，床垫刚刚消失了，我要摔倒了。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Got it.

明白了。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And that's where you can have these jerks.

That's our current best theory.

这是我们目前最好的理论。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I know we're going to talk a lot about dreaming in a later episode of this series, but what you just told me forces me to ask at this moment whether or not in dreams where we sense we are flying, is that possible because of the absence of proprioception?

我知道我们将在本系列的后面一集中谈论很多关于梦的内容，但你刚才告诉我的内容迫使我现在问，在我们感觉到自己正在飞翔的梦中，这是否可能是因为缺乏本体感觉？

We're on the mattress or on whatever surface we sleep on, but according to the brain, we're suspended in space.

我们在床垫上或在我们睡觉的任何表面上，但根据大脑的说法，我们悬浮在太空中。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

So it's one possibility as to why we have those experiences.

所以这是我们为什么会有这些经历的一种可能性。

In some ways, though, it does bring us onto REM sleep During REM sleep, and I'll explain what happens in the brain, but what you're talking about is something that is even more unique about REM sleep.

但在某些方面，它确实让我们进入快速眼动睡眠。在快速眼动睡眠期间，我将解释大脑中发生的事情，但你所说的是快速眼动睡眠更独特的东西。

As we go into REM sleep, your brain paralyzes your body, so you are physically locked into the incarceration of your body.

当我们进入快速眼动睡眠时，你的大脑会麻痹你的身体，因此你的身体被锁在身体的禁锢中。

Why would your brain do this?

And it's what we call muscle atonia.

Now, I was telling you that we measure your electrical brain activity, and we measure your eye movement activity, but we also measure your muscle activity.

现在，我告诉你，我们测量你的脑电活动，我们测量你的眼球运动活动，但我们也测量你的肌肉活动。

Why do we do that?

我们为什么要这么做？

Well, as you're going into non-REM sleep, that muscle tone decreases, but there's still some muscle tone there.

嗯，当你进入非快速眼动睡眠时，肌肉张力会减弱，但仍然有一些肌肉张力。

But as you go into REM sleep, in fact, just a few seconds before you enter REM sleep, I already know you're going into REM sleep because, bang, you become completely absent of muscle tone.

但当你进入快速眼动睡眠时，事实上，就在你进入快速眼动睡眠前几秒钟，我已经知道你即将进入快速眼动睡眠，因为，砰，你会完全失去肌肉张力。

And if I were to pick you up, and I'm probably not going to be able to pick you up out of your bed based on certain images I've seen on social media.

如果我去接你，根据我在社交媒体上看到的某些图片，我可能无法把你从床上接起来。

If I lift you up, you'd just be like a rag doll.

You would have no muscle tone whatsoever.

It's almost like those toys where it's like a donkey that sits up, and it's got a button underneath, and you press the button-

它几乎就像那些玩具，它就像一头坐起来的驴子，下面有一个按钮，你按下按钮-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, I love those

哦，我喜欢那些

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

whoosh, and it just falls down.

嗖的一声，它就掉下来了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

I used to have those as a kid, too.

The simple things that you and I had as children-

你和我小时候拥有的那些简单的事情——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah

是啊

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

that we're fascinated.

我们很着迷。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Actually, no, I still own a couple of these, but yeah, I need to get a donkey one.

事实上，不，我仍然拥有其中几个，但是，是的，我需要买一个驴子。

In any event-

无论如何——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

But sorry

但抱歉

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

I know what you're referring to.

我知道你指的是什么。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

So this muscle, as we call muscle atonia, anything in sort of medicine usually with an A before it means the absence of something.

因此，这种肌肉，我们称之为肌肉无力，任何医学上通常在前面加上 A 的东西都意味着缺乏某种东西。

So sort of if you have arrhythmia, absence of normal arrhythmia.

如果你有心律失常，没有正常的心律失常，那就是这样。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Aphasia.

失语症。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Aphasia.

失语症。

Yeah, sort of.

是的，有点像。

And here it's atonia, absence of the tone in your muscles.

这里是肌无力，即肌肉缺乏张力。

Why would the brain do this?

大脑为什么要这么做？

Well, the brain paralyzes your body so your mind can dream safely.

好吧，大脑会麻痹你的身体，这样你的思想就可以安全地做梦。

You would imagine how quickly you could be popped out of the gene pool if, just like you described, you thought, "I can fly." So you get up out of your bed, and you go to the window, and you launch.

你会想象，如果你像你描述的那样，“我能飞”，那么你会多快地从基因库中脱颖而出。所以你从床上站起来，走到窗前，然后发射。

Probably not going to end well, depending on what floor you're on.

可能不会有好的结局，这取决于你在哪一层。

So this absence of muscle tone, this physical incarceration that we have is one of the things, by the way, that defines REM sleep from when you are awake.

Because if all I was doing in my sleep lab was recording your electrical brain activity, and I was in the other room, and I was just looking at your brainwaves, as you go into REM sleep, I would not be able to tell, are you in REM sleep or are you awake?

Why?

为什么？

Because the electrical brain activity is so similar when you are in REM sleep relative to when you're awake.

因为快速眼动睡眠时的脑电活动与清醒时的脑电活动非常相似。

And what that tells us is that REM sleep is an incredibly active cerebral condition.

这告诉我们，快速眼动睡眠是一种极其活跃的大脑状态。

Your brain is just firing away.

你的大脑正在快速运转。

In fact, some parts of your brain can be up to 30% more active when you're in REM sleep than when you're awake.

事实上，当您处于 REM 睡眠状态时，大脑的某些部分可能比清醒时活跃 30%。

Stunning.

令人惊叹的。

Particularly emotional brain centers.

特别是情绪大脑中枢。

So it's a stunning state of paradox, and that's the reason that we sometimes call it paradoxical sleep.

所以这是一种令人惊叹的悖论状态，这就是我们有时称之为悖论睡眠的原因。

Your body is completely immobilized, utterly inactive, but your brain is fervent with its activity.

你的身体完全一动不动，完全不活动，但你的大脑却热衷于活动。

By the way, people should not worry when I say that your muscles are shut down.

顺便说一句，当我说你的肌肉被关闭时，人们不应该担心。

And what happens is that just before you go into REM sleep, there's a bursting activity that will go up into your brain to light up your cortex.

发生的情况是，就在您进入快速眼动睡眠之前，您的大脑会爆发一种活动，点亮您的皮层。

But there's another signal from the brain stem that's sent down all the way down the spinal cord to the alpha motor neurons in the spinal cord that will essentially create this inhibition.

但是，还有另一个来自脑干的信号，该信号一路向下发送到脊髓中的α运动神经元，这基本上会产生这种抑制。

It's only your voluntary skeletal muscles, meaning that your involuntary muscles things, for example, such as your respiration, that helps you breathe, and your heart.

That's the reason that we survive and live another day after sleep.

这就是我们能够在睡眠后存活并度过新一天的原因。

So don't worry about that too much.

所以不用太担心这个。

With two exceptions, though, there are two sets of voluntary muscles, for reasons that we still don't know either, that are spared from the paralysis of REM sleep.

然而，除了两个例外，有两组随意肌，由于我们仍然不知道的原因，没有受到快速眼动睡眠麻痹的影响。

One of them is the extraocular muscles.

其中之一是眼外肌。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And that's the reason that when you go into REM sleep, you can have these darting horizontal movements back and forth.

这就是当你进入快速眼动睡眠时，你可以进行这些来回快速水平运动的原因。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Hmm.

嗯。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Those should also have been paralyzed, but they're not.

那些人也应该瘫痪，但他们没有。

And then oddly, there is a muscle in the middle inner ear muscle that does not undergo the paralysis, and it will also twitch, too, just like your eyes.

But I'm getting into the weeds.

但我正在陷入困境。

So that's what's happening in these different physiological states.

这就是这些不同生理状态下发生的情况。

And to your question, when you don't have any muscle tone whatsoever, maybe that is in part the reason why, A, you can start to have these dreams of absent gravitational pull, meaning you can start to fly.

It may also be the reason, by the way, that coming back to proprioception, you can sometimes have that feeling of some people will describe, "My teeth are always falling out.

I always feel as though..." It's a very common thing, too.

我总感觉好像……”这也是很常见的事情。

Or you feel the absence of clothing on your body, and you say, "I walked out, and I was going to this meeting, and I realized I didn't have any pants on." And you forget that proprioception is also about knowing that your clothes are on you and sensing those clothes.

Or you feel the absence of clothing on your body, and you say, "I walked out, and I was going to this meeting, and I realized I didn't have any pants on."你忘记了本体感觉也是关于知道你的衣服在你身上并感知这些衣服。

You and I can now direct our attention and sense those clothes on us.

你和我现在可以引导我们的注意力并感受我们身上的那些衣服。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is it also the case that when we talk about sleep, we talk about falling asleep, that the sense that one is falling back into their head-

是否也是这样，当我们谈论睡眠时，我们谈论的是入睡，即一个人重新陷入头脑中的感觉——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

is related to the progressive loss of proprioception in the early stages of sleep?

与睡眠早期本体感觉的逐渐丧失有关吗？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Or is it just semantics?

或者这只是语义？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

No, I often think that that may have been where that notion comes from.

不，我经常认为这可能就是这个想法的来源。

Why would we not say that I am, sometimes people say I'm drifting off into sleep, or I'm about to enter sleep.

为什么我们不说我是呢，有时人们说我正在入睡，或者我即将进入睡眠。

No, we say I'm falling asleep.

不，我们说我睡着了。

Now, some of that may be that I'm falling into a sort of a deeper and deeper state of a brainwave activity pattern, maybe.

现在，其中一些可能是我正在陷入一种越来越深的脑电波活动模式状态。

But I actually think you're right.

但我实际上认为你是对的。

Now, we don't know ultimately the origin of it, but I believe it's in part because people have this sense of falling, hence falling asleep.

现在，我们还不知道它的最终起源，但我相信部分原因是人们有这种坠落的感觉，从而睡着了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Along those lines, I've found that if I sleep horizontally on a bed or sofa, the sleep is far and away different than if I fall asleep upright in a chair or partially upright in a recliner.

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

For instance, on an airplane.

例如，在飞机上。

Now, there are a bunch of other things happening on airplanes, bright lights, noises, et cetera.

现在，飞机上还发生了很多其他事情，明亮的灯光、噪音等等。

So it's not a good experiment to compare those two situations, airplane recliner versus in bed at night.

因此，比较这两种情况（飞机躺椅与晚上在床上）并不是一个好的实验。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Too many variables, temperature especially.

变量太多，尤其是温度。

But is there any evidence that one's bodily position during sleep or the orientation of the feet relative to the head, the angle elevated or upward or downward, has any impact on the pattern of different sleep stages or quality or any other aspects of sleep?

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

There is a reason for it, and we'll probably come onto this at some point when we speak about different methods for sleep optimization or the new wave of fascinating sleep enhancement tools, has to do with temperature, we think.

That for you to be able to fall asleep and stay asleep, you have to drop your brain and body temperature by just a little less than about one degree Celsius or probably two, two and a half degrees Fahrenheit.

And that's the reason, by the way, that you will always find it easier to fall asleep in a room that's too cold than too hot, because the room that's too cold is at least taking you in the right temperature direction for good sleep, whereas the room that's too hot, the opposite.

It turns out that the body's ability to dissipate heat, what we call thermoregulation here, and thermoregulation in one direction, which is the reduction in core body temperature, is superior when you are lying down versus when you are inclined versus when you are standing up.

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Really?

真的吗？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And in part, it has to do with the distribution of blood throughout certain parts of the brain in the distal versus proximal regions, meaning sort of the regions that are closer to the core of your body versus the regions that are further away.

在某种程度上，它与大脑远端和近端区域中某些部分的血液分布有关，这意味着靠近身体核心的区域和距离较远的区域。

But your body's ability, if we largely take most items of clothes off you, and then we measure the core body temperature, and the way that we do this, it's a delightful technique.

It's called a rectal probe.

它被称为直肠探针。

And it's neither pleasant necessarily for the installation of the experimenter doing it, and it's certainly not necessarily for the participant.

对于实验者来说，这不一定是令人愉快的，对于参与者来说，也不一定是令人愉快的。

But putting that aside for a second, we can measure your core body temperature, and we can measure, using temperature sensors all over your body, exactly what's going on with the blood flow.

但先把这个放在一边，我们可以测量您的核心体温，并且我们可以使用您全身的温度传感器来准确测量血流的情况。

And we can measure how the brain is starting to dissipate the heat, because one of the principal ways that we dissipate heat from our body is by moving blood around the body.

When we bring blood into the core of our body, we're trapping it in the core, and our core body temperature increases.

当我们将血液带入身体的核心时，我们将其困在核心中，我们的核心体温就会升高。

When we push that blood out to the surface, it goes to these thin sort of capillaries and vessels on the surface of your skin, and you start to dissipate that heat, and you dissipate it more quickly, so your core body temperature drops.

And the body's sort of vasoactive capacity for distributing that blood and then releasing that trapped heat from the core of the body is superior when you are lying down, and therefore your body temperature can drop more quickly, which is one of the many reasons why it's not as easy to fall asleep when you're sort of at a 45-degree angle and why the quality of your sleep won't be as good.

Now, there are other reasons, too, just as you mentioned.

正如您提到的，还有其他原因。

But coming back to position, I would say that there are maybe...

但回到立场上来，我想说也许有......

There's perhaps at least two pieces of evidence that would recommend positional differences or positional changes.

也许至少有两个证据表明立场差异或立场变化。

The first is very obvious.

第一个是非常明显的。

If you are someone who is snoring, and certainly if you have untreated sleep apnea, which is where you're sort of not just snoring like that, but you'll have an absence of breath.

That's what the word apnea means.

这就是呼吸暂停这个词的意思。

Here's another one with an A in front of it, pnea.

这是另一个前面有一个 A 的呼吸，呼吸。

You've heard of pneumonia, and this is about breath.

您听说过肺炎，而这与呼吸有关。

And apnea is about an absence of that breath.

呼吸暂停是指呼吸的缺失。

And with sleep apnea, not only do you start to have an airway collapsing partially, and that's where you get that flutter, and that's the sound of the flutter that we're having, but then at some point, you just hear silence.

At that point, the person's stopped breathing entirely, absence of breath.

就在这时，人的呼吸完全停止了，没有呼吸。

That is much more likely to happen if you are sleeping on your back because when you're sleeping on your back, your airway is giving way to gravity, which is wanting to pull the airway down and close it and shut it off.

So one of the suggestions for people who have snoring or sleep apnea is trying as best you can to train yourself out of sleeping on your back.

因此，对于打鼾或睡眠呼吸暂停患者的建议之一是尽最大努力训练自己不要仰卧睡觉。

Now, there's lots of gadgets out there that can sort of help and ways you can do that.

现在，有很多可以提供帮助的小工具以及实现此目的的方法。

The old school way that we used to do it, sleep apnea is more common in men than it is in women, but women still have it.

我们过去采用的老式方法是，睡眠呼吸暂停在男性中比在女性中更常见，但女性仍然有这种情况。

But if you had a male, you would bring them into the clinic, and you would say It's often males who perhaps are carrying excessive body weight, and so they're of larger mass size.

You'd say, "Can you also bring a T-shirt in of your wife?

你会说：“你能带一件你妻子的 T 恤进来吗？

And it has to be a T-shirt that has a pocket on the front." And then we would ask them to wear the T-shirt back to front, so it's a very tight-fitting T-shirt.

而且必须是一件前面有口袋的 T 恤。”然后我们会要求他们把T恤从后往前穿，所以这是一件非常紧身的T恤。

It's back to front, and then you tuck a tennis ball or a hockey ball in the back pocket.

它是从后到前的，然后你将网球或曲棍球塞进后面的口袋里。

And as you're lying there in bed, and you turn over onto your back, you get this painful signal of the tennis ball pushing you in the back, and it gradually...

当你躺在床上，翻个身，仰面朝天时，你会收到网球推你背部的痛苦信号，渐渐地……

I know.

我知道。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Who came up with this?

谁想出了这个？

Was this Matt Walker's idea?

这是马特·沃克的主意吗？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

This is not me.

这不是我。

I am not the sleep-

我不是睡眠者——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's clever.

这很聪明。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

On social media, I should be changed to sort of sleep torturer rather than sleep diplomat.

在社交媒体上，我应该变成睡眠折磨者而不是睡眠外交家。

So that's one recommendation.

这是一项建议。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Interesting.

有趣。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Try to stay clear.

尽量保持清晰。

If you're asking me, are there certain positions we should stay away from in that circumstance, yes, it would be.

如果你问我，在这种情况下我们是否应该远离某些立场，是的，是的。

The other comes back to something I mentioned during deep sleep, when this cleansing system starts to kick into gear in your brain and wash away these toxins from the day.

What we've found a little bit of evidence, and we in the royal we, because like you, my lab doesn't do animal research, we only do human research, but some animal researchers had discovered that when animals will sleep with their head on the side, the cleansing capacity of the brain is superior than when the animal is sleeping on its back or sleeping on its front.

And in fact, if you look, and you would love this project, if you go into Google and you just search for sleeping animals, look at the head position.

And I will guarantee you that many of them, if they're naturalistic, are animals with their head turned to the side.

我向你保证，如果他们是自然主义者，他们中的许多人都是头转向一边的动物。

Now, the cute ones, the funny ones, are when a kitten is splayed out on its back and its head is back.

现在，可爱的，有趣的，是当一只小猫仰面朝天，头向后仰的时候。

That's how someone with sleep apnea would sort of sleep on their back.

这就是患有睡眠呼吸暂停的人仰卧睡觉的方式。

But that's very rare.

但这种情况非常罕见。

We almost never see that.

我们几乎从未见过这种情况。

So it's very interesting.

所以这很有趣。

And what they found was that when those heads were in those sort of side positions, the cleansing mechanism of the brain was a little bit better.

It wasn't night or day.

这不是白天也不是黑夜。

It's not as though, oh my goodness, I'm a front sleeper, and I'm not getting any brain cleansing, or I'm a back sleeper.

这并不是说，天哪，我是一个睡在前面的人，而我没有得到任何大脑清洁，或者我是一个睡在后面的人。

I'm not saying that.

我不是这么说的。

There's no need to take it to the extreme.

没必要走极端。

But I don't think there's any good evidence yet in humans that firstly, that's the case, and nor is there strong enough evidence to make any recommendations.

But I just bring it up because it's in the data, and it's starting to emerge that if you were to ask me about sleeping position, and are there any recommendations, those are the two pieces of descriptive advice I would give you.

They are not prescriptive pieces of advice.

它们不是规定性的建议。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You mentioned the relationship between temperature and sleep, and we're going to get into that in some degree of detail a little bit later because it's so critical.

But prior to starting to record this episode, we were talking a little bit about yawning.

但在开始录制这一集之前，我们讨论了一些关于打哈欠的问题。

And you told me something really, truly fascinating about yawning, which was...

你告诉我一些关于打哈欠的非常非常有趣的事情，那就是……

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

So there are at least four competing theories of yawning that we have, and I think there is probably an emerging clear winner.

因此，我们至少有四种相互竞争的打哈欠理论，我认为可能有一个明显的赢家正在出现。

The first theory was that it was just tiredness, that yawning is simply a sign of you being tired.

第一个理论是，这只是疲劳，打哈欠只是你累了的表现。

And it turns out that that's not true because many people can yawn when they're bored, and they are not tired, and they've been very well rested.

So that doesn't seem to be true.

所以这似乎不是真的。

The next one was one that seems to be very logical, which is it's about trying to rebalance your blood gases, and specifically oxygen and carbon dioxide.

下一个似乎非常合乎逻辑，即尝试重新平衡您的血气，特别是氧气和二氧化碳。

And you would think that perhaps when you yawn with that sort of when you and you inhale a huge volume of oxygen, what you're trying to do is pump back up the oxygen in your bloodstream, or when you sort of and the exhale, maybe it's about exhaling more carbon dioxide.

你可能会想，也许当你打哈欠时，当你吸入大量氧气时，你想做的就是将血液中的氧气泵回，或者当你呼气时，也许是呼出更多的二氧化碳。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Not unlike the physiological sighs that occur during sleep of a double inhale with a long exhale.

与睡眠期间双吸气长呼气时发生的生理叹息没有什么不同。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Correct.

正确。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Or that one can voluntarily generate for anxiety management in wakeful state.

或者一个人可以在清醒状态下自愿产生焦虑管理。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Exactly.

正是如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yep.

是的。

And so that was a theory that maybe you're trying to balance these blood gases.

所以这是一个理论，也许你正在尝试平衡这些血气。

And there were some very clever experiments where they took individuals, and they artificially increased their oxygen levels, but more specifically, they increased their carbon dioxide levels bidirectionally.

他们进行了一些非常聪明的实验，他们以个体为对象，人为地增加了他们的氧气水平，但更具体地说，他们双向增加了他们的二氧化碳水平。

They tried to manipulate it, and they asked, did those individuals start to yawn more?

他们试图操纵它，然后问，那些人是否开始打哈欠更多？

Because the idea would be if your blood oxygen is coming down and your carbon dioxide is starting to rise, if this theory is correct, you should start yawning with greater frequency, and there was no difference whatsoever.

因为这个想法是，如果你的血氧含量下降，二氧化碳开始上升，如果这个理论是正确的，你应该开始更频繁地打哈欠，而且没有任何区别。

That's probably also the reason that you don't see people yawning on a treadmill or when they're going into more of an oxygen debt and higher levels of carbon dioxide.

So that theory was knocked out.

所以这个理论就被推翻了。

The third theory was one of contagion.

第三种理论是传染理论。

And it's fascinating.

这很有趣。

Yawning, like several other things, has a contagious element to it.

打哈欠和其他一些事情一样，具有传染性。

So as the audience, unexpectedly, they didn't know what you were going to say, and before you said it, you told us something interesting about and you did it, I guarantee you that there will be people listening right now who said, "Oh, I just yawned in response to Andrew Huberman yawning." It is very contagious.

In part, it's the mirror neuron system and You obviously understand this in depth.

在某种程度上，它是镜像神经元系统，你显然对此有深入的了解。

Your brain has this capacity to mirror the action states of other individuals.

你的大脑有能力反映其他人的行为状态。

So a good example would be, let's say I'm walking out the door now, and I'm closing the door with my hand, and all of a sudden, I'm going to get my hand trapped.

一个很好的例子是，假设我现在走出门，我用手关上门，突然间，我的手会被困住。

And you on the other side of the room, you are seeing my hand, and as soon as I trap my hand and I yelp out in pain, you almost hold your own hand.

而你在房间的另一边，你看到了我的手，当我卡住我的手并痛苦地喊叫时，你几乎握住了自己的手。

Because why?

因为为什么？

Why are you doing that?

你为什么要这么做？

It's not just because you're trying to be compassionate.

这不仅仅是因为你试图变得富有同情心。

No. You have experienced some degree of what I've just experienced.

不，你在某种程度上经历过我刚刚经历过的事情。

How does it do that?

它是如何做到的？

Because your brain has a system inside of it that mirrors my action states, and it's called a mirror system.

因为你的大脑内部有一个系统可以反映我的动作状态，它被称为镜像系统。

And you can imagine why it's very good to understand the action and emotional states of others for prosocial capacities and all of that good stuff.

你可以想象为什么了解他人的行为和情绪状态对于亲社会能力和所有这些好东西是非常好的。

And one of the things that can also happen with this mirror neuron system is that it mimics yawning.

这个镜像神经元系统还可能发生的事情之一是它模仿打哈欠。

So when you yawn, my likelihood of yawning increases too, because my mirror neuron system is matching your yawn.

所以当你打哈欠时，我打哈欠的可能性也会增加，因为我的镜像神经元系统与你的哈欠相匹配。

And what's interesting is that we know other species also have a mirror neuron system, and that means that when you yawn, there is a statistically higher chance that your dog will yawn, and it's cross-species.

有趣的是，我们知道其他物种也有镜像神经元系统，这意味着当你打哈欠时，从统计数据来看，你的狗也会打哈欠，而且这是跨物种的。

So when your dog yawns, there's a higher probability that you will yawn.

因此，当你的狗打哈欠时，你也会打哈欠的可能性更高。

And we've got this data, and it's very clear.

我们已经得到了这些数据，而且非常清楚。

One of the other interesting theories, though, is that when species that are cooperative species, for example, a pride of lions, when one of those lions yawns, firstly, many of the other lions will yawn in a contagious fashion.

然而，其他有趣的理论之一是，当合作物种的物种时，例如狮子群，当其中一只狮子打哈欠时，许多其他狮子首先会以传染的方式打哈欠。

But then consequently, there is a collection of actions that happen after that contagious yawn.

但随之而来的是，在那个具有传染性的哈欠之后会发生一系列的行为。

And so some people have suggested that the yawning is a way to enact cooperative group behavior.

因此，有人认为打哈欠是集体合作行为的一种方式。

That's another theory.

那是另一个理论。

The final theory, number four, which I think has the best evidence for, is not the gaseous exchange balancing of carbon dioxide and oxygen, but when you inhale oxygen from the outside, it's usually cooler than your core body and brain temperature.

最后的第四个理论，我认为有最好的证据，不是二氧化碳和氧气的气体交换平衡，而是当你从外部吸入氧气时，它通常比你的核心身体和大脑温度低。

And when we inhale, there is a modest drop in brain temperature.

当我们吸气时，大脑温度会略有下降。

And when the brain temperature starts to rise, that's when we see yawning frequency beginning to increase.

当大脑温度开始升高时，我们就会看到打哈欠的频率开始增加。

So next time you see someone yawn, don't think, "Oh, they're bored," or, "Mm, they didn't get enough sleep." Go over to them, hug them, and say, "I know your brain is getting warm.

因此，下次当你看到有人打哈欠时，不要想：“哦，他们很无聊”，或者“嗯，他们睡眠不足。”走到他们身边，拥抱他们，然后说：“我知道你的大脑正在变暖。

It's okay." And then at that point, the friendship will be terminated because no one should be hugging each other and saying, "Your brain is warm.

没关系。”到那时，友谊就会终止，因为没有人应该互相拥抱并说：“你的大脑很温暖。

I'm so sorry." But anyway, that aside, I'm sorry I took us down that tributary of my polluted stream of consciousness, but that's yawning explained.

我很抱歉。”但无论如何，除此之外，我很抱歉我把我们带到了我被污染的意识流的支流上，但这就是打哈欠的解释。

Those are the four theories, and we don't have a definitive answer, but I think the best one right now that will continue is that it's about brain cooling.

这就是四种理论，我们没有明确的答案，但我认为目前最好的理论是关于大脑冷却。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That theory makes a lot of sense.

这个理论很有道理。

People tend to yawn when they get tired.

人们在疲倦时往往会打哈欠。

As you mentioned, people can yawn for other reasons as well.

正如您提到的，人们也会因为其他原因打哈欠。

If I'm yawning because I'm tired, and yawning is to cool off my brain that's too warm, is that an attempt to put my brain to sleep because we need to cool the brain in order for it to go to sleep?

如果我因为累而打哈欠，而打哈欠是为了让我太热的大脑降温，那么这是否是一种让我的大脑进入睡眠状态的尝试，因为我们需要冷却大脑才能让它入睡？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Or something else going on there also, and this sort of merges with the previous question about body position.

或者还有其他事情发生，这与之前关于身体位置的问题合并了。

I've lectured in the university for well over a decade, as I know you have as well, and occasionally, every once in a while- ...

我在大学里讲课已经十多年了，我知道你也有，偶尔，每隔一段时间——......

there's one student-- I'm just kidding.

有一个学生——我只是开玩笑。

There are several students, especially if it's an afternoon class or a very early morning class, that is falling asleep in their chair, and then their head, they kind of jolt awake.

有几个学生，尤其是下午的课或早上很早的课，他们在椅子上睡着了，然后他们的头就被摇醒了。

And we all know-

我们都知道——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

that keeping the room a little bit cooler sometimes helps to keep people awake, as opposed to a warm afternoon classroom.

保持房间凉爽有时有助于让人们保持清醒，而不是温暖的下午教室。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But in some ways, what we're talking about here violates what you were talking about earlier, that it's easier to fall asleep in a cool environment as opposed to a warm environment.

但在某些方面，我们在这里谈论的内容违反了您之前谈论的内容，即在凉爽的环境中比在温暖的环境中更容易入睡。

The brain needs to cool in order to fall asleep, but then when we yawn, it's in response to the brain being too warm, and so I'm having a little bit of a hard time-

大脑需要冷却才能入睡，但是当我们打哈欠时，这是对大脑太热的反应，所以我有点困难-

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Square that circle for me.

帮我把那个圆摆成正方形。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Help me understand.

帮助我理解。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, square that circle.

是的，把那个圆摆成方形。

I like that.

我喜欢这样。

Yeah.

是的。

Please square that circle for me, Matt.

请帮我画圆，马特。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

So it turns out that for you to drop your core body temperature, the opposite has to happen, which is that you have to warm up to cool down to fall asleep.

因此，事实证明，要降低核心体温，必须发生相反的情况，即您必须先热身降温才能入睡。

And I mean warm up in a very specific way.

我的意思是以一种非常具体的方式热身。

You have to have the outer surface of your brain warm up.

你必须让大脑的外表面变暖。

You have to get blood to the surface of your skin, and that surface almost acts like a snake charmer, that it draws the warm blood from the core, and it pushes it to the surface, and you radiate the heat out.

你必须让血液到达你的皮肤表面，而那个表面几乎就像一个耍蛇者，它从核心吸取温暖的血液，并将其推到表面，然后你将热量散发出去。

And as you radiate the heat out, as I said, your core body temperature plummets.

正如我所说，当你散发热量时，你的核心体温会急剧下降。

So why would people be falling asleep sort of in an afternoon meeting when it starts to get a little warm?

那么，为什么人们会在下午的会议上，当天气开始变得有点暖和的时候就睡着了呢？

Well, in part, it's because the warmth of the room is starting to make the sort of face a little bit more rosy.

嗯，部分原因是房间的温暖开始让那种脸变得更加红润。

It's drawing the blood out to the surface.

它正在将血液抽到表面。

So what's happening, the core of your brain and your body temperature are starting to drop, and at that point, that's why you're going to start to feel a little bit more sleepy.

那么发生了什么，你的大脑核心和你的体温开始下降，在这一点上，这就是为什么你会开始感到有点困。

That's reason one.

这就是原因一。

The second that you described is that afternoon, you're in meetings around a table, and you start to get, as you said, those wonderful head nods.

你所描述的第二件事是那天下午，你围着一张桌子开会，正如你所说，你开始得到那些美妙的点头。

And people listening, you all know that, where the head goes down and it snaps back up.

听的人都知道，头低下然后又弹回来。

It's not that people are listening to good music and sort of doing this head bobbing.

这并不是说人们在听好音乐时会摇头。

It's that they're falling prey to what we know is a genetically hardwired, pre-programmed drop in your afternoon alertness It's called the postprandial dip in alertness, and that infers that it's after some kind of a meal.

这是因为它们正成为我们所知道的遗传性、预先设定的下午警觉性下降的牺牲品。这被称为餐后警觉性下降，这意味着这是在吃过某种饭后。

It turns out it's not really related to a meal.

事实证明，这与吃饭并没有太大关系。

People say, "Well, I had a heavy lunch.

人们说：“嗯，我午餐吃得很饱。

I had sort of pasta at lunch, and I always feel sleepy afterwards." Maybe in part, but if I remove it, I prevent you from having lunch, and we've done these studies, too, your brain still shows this very reliable drop in alertness somewhere between, it's quite wide, but somewhere between about 1:00 to 4:00 PM in the afternoon.

我午餐吃了一些意大利面，吃完后我总是感到困倦。”也许是部分原因，但如果我把它去掉，我就会阻止你吃午饭，我们也做了这些研究，你的大脑仍然显示出这种非常可靠的警觉性下降，范围很广，但大约在下午 1:00 到 4:00 之间。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

For me, it's always between 2:00 and 3:00 PM, which is a time where-

对我来说，总是在下午 2:00 到 3:00 之间，这个时间-

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And I'm resisting looking at my watch right now just to see-

我现在拒绝看手表只是为了看看-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, we might be in that phase of the day.

是的，我们可能正处于这一阶段。

I can always feel it, and if I close my eyes for 10, 20 minutes, I usually can fall asleep pretty quickly-

我总能感觉到，如果我闭上眼睛10、20分钟，我通常很快就能睡着——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

for a nap.

小睡一下。

I know we'll talk about naps later.

我知道我们稍后会讨论小睡的问题。

But if I don't and I ride it out, then usually by about 3:00, 3:30, I'm fine.

但如果我不这样做，并且能安然度过，那么通常在 3:00、3:30 左右，我就没事了。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

You get that rise back up, don't you?

你会恢复原来的状态，不是吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And it sort of swings back up.

它有点回升。

And so that's in part the reason, though, explaining the yawning and that warm feeling of I'm in the meeting room, the boardroom meeting, and the blinds are open, the sun is coming through, I've got the sun on my back.

这就是部分原因，虽然，解释了我在会议室、董事会会议中打哈欠和那种温暖的感觉，百叶窗打开，阳光照进来，阳光照在我的背上。

I'm starting to get very warm, but I'm starting to get really, really sleepy.

我开始变得很热，但我也开始变得非常非常困。

It's the collusion of two things.

这是两件事的共谋。

It's that you're going into this higher frequency sleep zone in the afternoon, this postprandial drop in your brain alertness, and we can measure it.

就是你在下午进入这个频率更高的睡眠区，餐后你的大脑警觉性下降，我们可以测量它。

It's very reliable.

这是非常可靠的。

You can see this dip in your brain electrical activity.

您可以看到大脑电活动的下降。

And you're getting warm at the surface, which brings blood to the surface, releases that heat from the core, it drops, and boy, do you want to fall asleep.

你的表面变得温暖，这将血液带到表面，从核心释放热量，它下降，男孩，你想睡觉吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I want to take a brief break and acknowledge our sponsor, InsideTracker.

我想短暂休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 InsideTracker。

InsideTracker is a personalized nutrition platform that analyzes data from your blood and DNA to help you better understand your body and help you reach your health goals.

InsideTracker 是一个个性化营养平台，可分析您的血液和 DNA 数据，帮助您更好地了解您的身体并帮助您实现健康目标。

Now, I've long been a believer in getting regular blood work done for the simple reason that many of the factors that impact your immediate and long-term health can only be analyzed from a quality blood test.

现在，我长期以来一直相信定期进行血液检查，原因很简单，影响您当前和长期健康的许多因素只能通过高质量的血液测试来分析。

The problem with a lot of blood tests out there, however, is that you get information back about metabolic factors, hormones, et cetera, but you don't know what to do with that information.

然而，大量血液测试的问题在于，您得到有关代谢因素、激素等的信息，但您不知道如何处理这些信息。

With InsideTracker, they make it very easy to understand your results, and they also point you to specific directives that you can follow in the realm of nutrition, exercise, supplementation, even prescription drugs that can help bring the levels back into the ranges that are optimal for you.

借助 InsideTracker，您可以轻松了解您的结果，并且还为您提供在营养、锻炼、补充剂甚至处方药领域可以遵循的具体指示，以帮助将水平恢复到最适合您的范围。

InsideTracker also offers InsideTracker Pro, which enables coaches and health professionals to provide premium and personalized services by leveraging InsideTracker's analysis and recommendations with their clients.

InsideTracker 还提供 InsideTracker Pro，使教练和健康专业人员能够利用 InsideTracker 的分析和向客户提供的建议来提供优质和个性化的服务。

If you'd like to try InsideTracker, you can go to insidetracker.com/huberman to get 20% off any of InsideTracker's plans.

如果您想尝试 InsideTracker，您可以访问 insidetracker.com/huberman，享受任何 InsideTracker 计划 20% 的折扣。

Again, that's insidetracker.com/huberman.

同样，这是 insidetracker.com/huberman。

I took us on a bit of a journey into some, I don't want to call them sidebars, but some specific features around sleep and falling asleep, et cetera.

我带我们进入了一些旅程，我不想称它们为侧边栏，而是围绕睡眠和入睡等的一些特定功能。

Let's get back to the different stages of sleep and frame that under the question of what is great sleep?

让我们回到睡眠的不同阶段，并思考什么是优质睡眠？

What is mediocre sleep?

什么是睡眠质量平庸？

I think we all know what bad sleep is.

我想我们都知道什么是睡眠不好。

It's when you can't get sleep.

就是你睡不着的时候。

But I think there's a whole different category of bad sleep that you're going to tell us about, which is sleep that we think is good but is actually not as good as we think it is.

但我认为您要告诉我们的是一种完全不同的睡眠不良类别，即我们认为很好但实际上并不像我们想象的那么好的睡眠。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

I'm always the bearer of-

我永远是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah

是啊

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

doom and gloom as the-

厄运和阴郁——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No, but also the deliverer of powerful tools to improve one's sleep and thereby wakeful state.

不，但它也是改善睡眠和清醒状态的强大工具的提供者。

So along those lines, what is sleep for truly?

那么，沿着这些思路，睡眠到底是为了什么？

And what happens when we don't sleep well is perhaps more intuitive to most people.

对于大多数人来说，当我们睡眠不好时会发生什么可能更直观。

Oh, I feel cranky, or I can't remember things, or stress seems to feel a little more intense.

哦，我感觉脾气暴躁，或者我记不起事情了，或者压力似乎感觉更强烈了一些。

The same amount of stress feels more intense.

同样的压力感觉更强烈。

And what is great sleep?

什么是优质睡眠？

And this is, I think, all under the umbrella of why do we sleep?

我认为，这一切都在我们为什么睡觉的范畴内？

Why do we spend a good third to or more of our life in this incredible state of mind and body that we call sleep?

为什么我们一生中三分之一或更多的时间都处于这种令人难以置信的身心状态（我们称之为睡眠）中？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And it really is quite a stunning state of idiocy when you consider it because when you're asleep, you're not finding a mate.

当你考虑到这一点时，这确实是一种令人震惊的愚蠢状态，因为当你睡着时，你找不到伴侣。

You're not reproducing.

你没有复制。

You're not foraging for food.

你不是在寻找食物。

You're not caring for your young.

你不关心你的孩子。

And worse still, you are vulnerable to predation.

更糟糕的是，你很容易遭到掠食。

On any one of those grounds, but especially all of them as a collective, sleep should've been strongly selected against in the course of evolution.

无论出于哪一个原因，尤其是作为一个整体，睡眠都应该在进化过程中被强烈选择。

And in fact, one of the founding fathers of sleep research, Allan Rechtschaffen, once said that if sleep doesn't serve an absolutely vital function, it is the biggest mistake the evolutionary process has ever made.

事实上，睡眠研究的创始人之一艾伦·雷希特沙芬 (Allan Rechtschaffen) 曾说过，如果睡眠不能发挥绝对重要的功能，那么这就是进化过程中犯下的最大错误。

And now what we've learned through almost 10,000-plus research studies over the past certainly 70, 80 years now is that nature did not make a spectacular blunder in creating this thing called sleep.

现在，我们通过过去 70、80 年的近 10,000 多项研究了解到，大自然在创造睡眠这个东西时并没有犯下巨大的错误。

So maybe I can firstly address what is sleep doing, and what happens if we're not getting sufficient sleep, and then the other question is what is good sleep?

所以也许我可以首先解决睡眠在做什么，如果我们没有获得充足的睡眠会发生什么，然后另一个问题是什么是良好的睡眠？

In terms of what sleep is doing and why he was right in saying that Mother Nature didn't make a blunder, and it hasn't by the way, because if you go back, every species that we have carefully studied to date seems to sleep.

关于睡眠的作用以及为什么他说大自然没有犯错误，顺便说一句，它也没有犯错误，因为如果你回去，我们迄今为止仔细研究的每个物种似乎都在睡觉。

And what that tells us, even very old, evolutionary old, ancient earthworms seem to sleep.

这告诉我们，即使是非常古老的、进化古老的、古老的蚯蚓似乎也在睡觉。

They will have a period of what we call lethargicus, which is where they seem to be inactive.

他们会经历一段我们称之为昏昏欲睡的时期，这段时间他们似乎不活跃。

So what I I bring that point up because it means that sleep appears to have evolved with life itself on this planet, and then it has fought its way through heroically every step along the evolutionary path.

所以我提出这一点是因为这意味着睡眠似乎是随着这个星球上的生命本身一起进化的，然后它沿着进化道路英勇地走过了每一步。

And that, by itself, must tell us that whatever sleep is doing, it must be non-negotiably life support necessary.

这本身就告诉我们，无论睡眠在做什么，它都必然是生命支持所必需的。

In what ways is it life support necessary?

在哪些方面需要生命支持？

Well, we now know many of those.

嗯，我们现在知道其中很多。

First, when you're not getting sufficient sleep, I can speak about your hormonal systems.

首先，当你睡眠不足时，我可以谈谈你的荷尔蒙系统。

Let's say I take a group of really healthy young men, and I limit them to four or five hours of sleep for five nights.

假设我带了一群非常健康的年轻人，我限制他们五个晚上的睡眠时间为四到五个小时。

They will have a level of testosterone which is similar to someone who is probably 10 years older than them.

他们的睾酮水平与可能比他们年长 10 岁的人相似。

So a lack of sleep will age you within five days by a decade.

因此，睡眠不足会在五天内让你衰老十年。

We also see equivalent impairments in female reproductive health caused by a lack of sleep, impairments in estrogen, in follicle-stimulating hormone, and also in luteinizing hormone.

我们还发现，睡眠不足、雌激素、卵泡刺激素和黄体生成素受损也会对女性生殖健康造成同样的损害。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What about the effects of a single night's poor sleep on hormones?

一晚睡眠不足对荷尔蒙有何影响？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And not to get too down in the details here, but is it necessary to have four or five nights of minimal sleep in a row before you start to see these effects?

这里不要太详细，但在开始看到这些效果之前，是否有必要连续四到五个晚上睡眠最少？

Or let's say somebody's getting good sleep for three nights or four nights of the week, but then the other three are kind of challenging for whatever reason.

或者，假设某人一周中有三个晚上或四个晚上睡得很好，但其他三个晚上无论出于何种原因都具有挑战性。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But does one see a graded effect, a kind of intermediate reduction in sex steroid hormones like testosterone, estrogen, follicle-stimulating hormone?

但人们是否会看到一种渐进效应，即睾酮、雌激素、卵泡刺激素等性类固醇激素的中间减少？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

There is some degree of a dose-response curve, but we haven't mapped it out.

存在某种程度的剂量反应曲线，但我们还没有将其绘制出来。

So the way I would want to do it as a sleep scientist would say, "Okay, I'm going to do this for one night, and I'm going to thin slice you to seven hours, six hours, five hours, and then I'm going to do it for two nights, and you're going to again be in the six hours, seven hours, four hours, five." And I would like to build up this high-fidelity map and understand that we don't have that.

因此，作为一名睡眠科学家，我会说：“好吧，我要这样做一个晚上，然后我会把你切成七小时，六个小时，五个小时，然后我要这样做两个晚上，你将再次处于六个小时，七小时，四小时，五小时。”我想建立这张高保真地图，但我知道我们没有。

But certainly what we know is that a night of total deprivation will markedly impair those hormones, and we know that after about a working week of short sleep, you see those impairments, too.

但我们肯定知道的是，一整夜的完全剥夺会显着损害这些激素，而且我们知道，经过大约一周的短暂睡眠后，你也会看到这些损害。

But let me come back to one night.

但让我回到一个晚上。

So that's the hormonal system as an example, and we've already spoken, or I'll come back to it right now, the metabolic system and another hormone, insulin.

这就是荷尔蒙系统的例子，我们已经说过了，或者我现在就回到它，代谢系统和另一种激素，胰岛素。

What we found is that if I take you again, and you're perfectly normal, healthy, you don't have any signs of type 2 diabetes, and I limit you to, let's say, five hours of sleep for four nights, and then I measure your ability to dispose of blood sugar, your level of blood sugar impairment is so disrupted that at that point, your doctor would classify you as being pre-diabetic.

我们发现，如果我再次给你做检查，你完全正常、健康，没有任何 2 型糖尿病的迹象，并且我限制你，比方说，四个晚上只睡 5 个小时，然后我测量你处理血糖的能力，你的血糖受损水平会受到严重干扰，到那时，你的医生会将你归类为糖尿病前期。

So I could take an individual, and within five nights of short sleep, I can move them towards a path that's getting very close to type 2 diabetes.

所以我可以带一个人，在五个晚上的短暂睡眠内，我可以让他们走上一条非常接近 2 型糖尿病的道路。

And as I said, and we, royal we here.

正如我所说，我们，皇室成员，我们在这里。

Whenever I say we, by the way, it usually means that-- Well, whenever I say I did something, I mean at my center, we did something.

顺便说一句，每当我说我们时，通常意味着——嗯，每当我说我做了某事时，我的意思是在我的中心，我们做了某事。

And when I say we did something, I mean that they did something.

当我说我们做了某事时，我的意思是他们做了某事。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's a fair shorthand for attribution.

这是归因的合理简写。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And so there have been studies that have really decomposed exactly how that impairment in blood sugar happens, and we mentioned that earlier in this episode.

因此，已经有研究真正分解了血糖损害是如何发生的，我们在本集前面提到过。

I can also then move on to, for example, your immune system.

然后我还可以继续讨论，例如，你的免疫系统。

This is a very good demonstration.

这是一个非常好的演示。

Firstly, there's a great study done by Michael Irwin and his colleagues at UCLA, and he took individuals, healthy individuals, and he limited them to just four hours of sleep for one single night, and he measured levels of critical anti-cancer-fighting immune cells called natural killer cells.

首先，迈克尔·欧文（Michael Irwin）和他在加州大学洛杉矶分校（UCLA）的同事们做了一项伟大的研究，他对健康个体进行了一项研究，将他们限制为一晚只睡四个小时，并测量了关键的抗癌免疫细胞（称为自然杀伤细胞）的水平。

And what he found is that after that one night of just four hours of sleep, there was a 70% reduction in natural killer cell activity.

他发现，经过一晚仅仅 4 个小时的睡眠后，自然杀伤细胞的活性就下降了 70%。

That is a striking state of immune deficiency.

这是一种显着的免疫缺陷状态。

And just to give people a reference point, these natural killer cells, well, think of them almost like the Secret Service agents of your immune system.

为了给人们一个参考点，这些自然杀伤细胞，好吧，把它们想象成你免疫系统的特勤人员。

These natural killer cells are very good at identifying dangerous, unwanted elements in your body, like cancer, and going after them and destroying them.

这些自然杀伤细胞非常擅长识别体内危险的、不需要的元素（例如癌症），并追踪并消灭它们。

So you wish for a very virile set of these immune assassins in your body at all times, and if you're not getting sufficient sleep, that may not necessarily be the case.

因此，您希望体内始终有一组非常有活力的免疫杀手，但如果您睡眠不足，情况可能不一定如此。

We also know that if you are not getting sufficient sleep in the week before you get your flu shot, and this is just another example of how sleep is critical for your immune system.

我们还知道，如果您在接种流感疫苗前一周睡眠不足，这只是睡眠对免疫系统至关重要的另一个例子。

If you're not getting that sleep in the week before you get your flu shot, you produce less than 50% of the normal antibody response, therefore rendering that flu shot largely ineffective in terms of vaccinating you.

如果您在接种流感疫苗前一周没有得到充足的睡眠，您产生的抗体反应将低于正常抗体反应的 50%，因此流感疫苗对您的疫苗接种基本上无效。

We also know that if you're not getting sufficient sleep on average, let's say that you're getting less than six hours of sleep or less on average, you're almost three times more likely to develop the common cold, the common flu.

我们还知道，如果您平均睡眠不足，假设您的平均睡眠时间少于六个小时或更少，您患普通感冒（普通流感）的可能性几乎会增加三倍。

And I know that you, at the time of us recording this, you've released some fantastic content about the flu and the rhinovirus in particular.

我知道，在我们录制此内容时，您已经发布了一些有关流感和鼻病毒的精彩内容。

So that's a good demonstration of your immune system.

这很好地证明了您的免疫系统。

We also know that it's not just that, it's also your cardiovascular system that suffers when you're not getting sufficient sleep.

我们还知道，不仅如此，当您睡眠不足时，您的心血管系统也会受到影响。

And here again, the data, I think, is very strong.

我认为，这里的数据非常有力。

Cardiovascular disease writ large, including stroke and heart attack.

心血管疾病显而易见，包括中风和心脏病发作。

And there is one study that I think illustrates this, and granted now in terms of the replication, the effect sizes may not be as big, but the study was interesting They didn't do something radical like depriving you of sleep for an entire night, nor did they just limit you to five hours of sleep for four nights.

我认为有一项研究说明了这一点，并且现在就复制而言，效果可能没有那么大，但这项研究很有趣。他们没有做一些激进的事情，比如剥夺你一整晚的睡眠，也没有限制你四个晚上的睡眠时间为五个小时。

There is a global sleep experiment that is performed on about 1.65 billion people across 70 countries twice a year and it's called Daylight Savings Time.

有一项全球睡眠实验，每年对 70 个国家的约 16.5 亿人进行两次，称为夏令时。

Now, in the spring, when we lose an hour of sleep, what they observed in that paper was a 24% relative increase in heart attack risk the following day.

现在，在春天，当我们少睡一个小时时，他们在论文中观察到，第二天心脏病发作的风险相对增加了 24%。

Yet-

然而——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Wow

哇

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

in the autumn, in the fall, when you gain an hour of sleep, there was a 21% reduction-

秋天，秋天，当你多睡一个小时的时候，就减少了21%——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Amazing

太棒了

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

in heart.

在心里。

So it's bidirectional.

所以它是双向的。

And by the way, and I just said, that paper, there are some aspects that you can sort of discuss, but it has been replicated.

顺便说一句，我刚才说过，那篇论文，有一些方面你可以讨论，但它已经被复制了。

We see increased rates of hospitalization after that one hour of lost sleep in the spring.

我们发现，春季睡眠不足一小时后，住院率有所上升。

There are higher rates of car accidents on the road after one hour of lost sleep.

睡眠不足一小时后，路上发生车祸的几率会更高。

We also see higher rates of suicide after one hour of lost sleep during the spring time change.

我们还发现，在春季时间变化期间，睡眠不足一小时后自杀率较高。

We even see it, this is great data, they looked at the sentencing of federal judges in the United States, and because it's the federal system, the government system, all of those things are cataloged and well-documented.

我们甚至看到它，这是很棒的数据，他们研究了美国联邦法官的判决，因为这是联邦系统，政府系统，所有这些东西都被分类并有据可查。

So you have a huge database.

所以你有一个巨大的数据库。

And they went back, and what they found is that in the spring when we all lose that one hour of sleep opportunity, those judges doled out harsher federal sentencing in the day after they had lost one hour of sleep because their emotional and mood states were impaired.

他们回去后发现，在春天，当我们都失去了一小时的睡眠机会时，那些法官在他们失去一小时睡眠的第二天就做出了更严厉的联邦判决，因为他们的情绪和情绪状态受损。

And we'll speak about this in a later episode, too.

我们也会在后面的剧集中讨论这个问题。

So if you are up for sentencing, please try to avoid that spring time change as best you can.

因此，如果您准备宣判，请尽量避免春季时间变化。

Go for the fall date if it's possible.

如果可能的话，去秋季约会。

So that's your cardiovascular system.

这就是你的心血管系统。

I could also tell you that it goes all the way down into the cellular and molecular state of your body, and I'm trying to do this to impress the fundamental importance of sleep.

我还可以告诉你，它会一直深入到你身体的细胞和分子状态，我试图这样做是为了让人们认识到睡眠的根本重要性。

There was a wonderful study done by my colleagues at the University of Surrey back in the UK, led by Derk-Jan Dijk.

我在英国萨里大学的同事在 Derk-Jan Dijk 的领导下进行了一项精彩的研究。

And what they demonstrated was that if you take healthy individuals, and everyone is going to act as their own control, and you limit them to six hours of sleep for one week versus allowing them to sleep at least eight and a half hours or more time in bed.

他们证明，如果你选择健康的个体，每个人都会充当自己的控制者，你将他们限制为一周六个小时的睡眠，而不是允许他们在床上睡至少八个半小时或更长时间。

And then what they did was they measured the change in their gene activity profile relative to when those same individuals, as I said, were getting a full eight-hour plus opportunity in bed versus the six hours of limited sleep.

然后他们所做的就是测量他们的基因活动谱的变化，相对于这些人，正如我所说的，在床上获得整整八个小时以上的机会，而不是六个小时的有限睡眠。

And they found two interesting things.

他们发现了两件有趣的事情。

First, a sizable and significant 711 genes were distorted in their activity caused by a lack of sleep.

首先，由于缺乏睡眠，大量重要的 711 个基因的活性发生了扭曲。

By the way, that's relevant.

顺便说一句，这是相关的。

We know that almost one out of every three, maybe even one out of every two if you look at the data, people that pass you on the street is trying to survive on six hours of sleep or less during the week.

我们知道，如果你看一下数据，几乎三分之一的人，甚至可能是二分之一的人，在街上经过你的人都试图在一周内靠六个小时或更少的睡眠来生存。

So it's a relevant ecological manipulation.

所以这是一种相关的生态操纵。

The second result was that about half of those genes were increased in their activity.

第二个结果是这些基因中大约一半的活性增加了。

The other half were decreased.

另一半则减少。

Now, those genes that were impaired by way of one week of short sleep were genes associated with the immune system.

现在，那些因一周睡眠不足而受损的基因是与免疫系统相关的基因。

So once again, you can see this immune deficiency, but now playing out at a genetic level.

因此，您可以再次看到这种免疫缺陷，但现在在基因水平上发挥作用。

Those genes that were increased, or what we call overexpressed, were genes that were associated with the promotion of tumors, genes that were associated with long-term chronic inflammation within the body, and genes that were associated with cellular stress, and as a consequence, cardiovascular disease.

那些增加的基因，或者我们所说的过度表达的基因，是与肿瘤生长相关的基因，与体内长期慢性炎症相关的基因，以及与细胞应激相关的基因，从而导致心血管疾病。

And to me, that study impressed the fact that there is no aspect of your wellness that seems to be able to retreat at the sign of sleep deprivation and get away unscathed.

对我来说，这项研究给我留下了深刻的印象，即你的健康状况似乎没有任何一个方面能够在睡眠不足的迹象下消失并毫发无伤。

It's almost like a broken water pipe in your home, that sleep will leak down into every nook and cranny of your physiology, and it will even tamper with the very DNA nucleic alphabet that spells out your daily health narrative.

这几乎就像你家中一根破损的水管，睡眠会渗入你生理的每一个角落和缝隙，甚至会篡改阐明你日常健康叙述的 DNA 核酸字母表。

So I paint this picture, which seems dire, and I think someone once said to me, "Look, your TED Talk," which I think was called "Sleep is Your Superpower," they said, "That talk should've actually been Sleep or else..." Which is a completely fair thing because I think very early on as a public figure for sleep, I did a terrible job.

所以我画了这张看起来很可怕的图画，我想有人曾经对我说，“看，你的 TED 演讲”，我认为这被称为“睡眠是你的超能力”，他们说，“那个演讲实际上应该是睡眠，否则......”这是一件完全公平的事情，因为我认为很早就作为睡眠公众人物，我做得很糟糕。

I was very dictatorial.

我非常独裁。

I was very-

我当时非常-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, I disagree.

哦，我不同意。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Well, I think I was very absolutist, and I've learnt my lesson.

嗯，我认为我非常专制，我已经吸取了教训。

I'm-

我是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I disagree, and I'm going to interrupt intentionally.

我不同意，我要故意打断。

Not to puff you up just because, but I think that it's fair to say, I know it's fair to say that the cautionary notes that you spoke about in those early TED Talks and in your book, "Why We Sleep," while they may have stimulated some anxiety for some people-

不是为了让你自吹自擂，但我认为可以公平地说，我知道可以公平地说，你在早期的 TED 演讲和你的书《我们为什么睡觉》中谈到的警告性注释，虽然它们可能激发了一些人的焦虑——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

they absolutely had and have a net positive effect in the sense that they cued people to the importance of this thing called sleep.

它们绝对具有并且具有净积极效果，因为它们提示人们睡眠这件事的重要性。

Because prior to you doing that or those things, it was the case that it was the I'll sleep when I'm dead mentality.

因为在你做那些事情之前，情况就是“我死了就睡觉”的心态。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And as somebody who's pulled many all-nighters in his career, many, although not these days any longer, thank goodness, I can tell you that that information was transformative for my behavior and also for people in the arenas of military, sports, children, adults.

作为一个在职业生涯中熬过很多个通宵的人，谢天谢地，虽然现在已经不再是这样了，但我可以告诉你，这些信息改变了我的行为，也改变了军事、体育、儿童、成人领域的人们。

It is fair to say that we have better parents, better kids, better citizens of every country as a consequence.

公平地说，我们每个国家都拥有更好的父母、更好的孩子和更好的公民。

So I won't allow you- It's one of the few things I will have a hard line on.

所以我不会允许你——这是我会采取强硬立场的少数事情之一。

I won't allow you to malign- ...

我不会允许你诽谤——

your contribution.

你的贡献。

And the good news is This series is also going to include a lot of discussion about things that one can do-

好消息是这个系列还将包含很多关于人们可以做的事情的讨论 -

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Absolutely

绝对

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

anyone can do to improve their sleep.

任何人都可以采取措施来改善睡眠。

So-

所以——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

And I-

而我——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So enough with that, Walker

就这样吧，沃克

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Thank you for saying that.

谢谢你这么说。

I will-

我会-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Enough with that, Walker

够了，沃克

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

I will stop trying to reject that.

我将不再试图拒绝这一点。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

But I would also just-

但我也只是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Folks, put in the comments on YouTube whether or not you agree with me or you agree with Matt, and thanks for agreeing with me.

各位，无论您是否同意我或马特的观点，请在 YouTube 上发表评论，感谢您同意我的观点。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

I would say though that please don't start, as you mentioned there, getting anxious if you're not finding it easy to fall asleep, that listening to me is firstly probably not going to make matters any better.

我想说的是，正如您在那里提到的，如果您发现不容易入睡，请不要开始焦虑，首先听我的讲话可能不会让事情变得更好。

But don't think even if you're in the general public that, "Look, I had one bad night of sleep.

但即使你是普通大众，也不要认为，“看，我昨晚睡得很糟糕。

Does it mean I'm now going to develop Alzheimer's disease?" Absolutely not.

这是否意味着我现在将患上阿尔茨海默病？”绝对不是。

We're not suggesting that.

我们不建议这样做。

We're talking about a model in which week after week, month after month, yes, I've demonstrated that after just one night of something of short sleep, you can see measurable impairments, and we can, and I can't be untruthful about the scientific data.

我们谈论的是一个模型，在这个模型中，一周又一周，一月又一月，是的，我已经证明，经过一晚的短暂睡眠后，你可以看到可测量的损伤，我们可以，而且我不能对科学数据不真实。

But it's not as catastrophic as one may think.

但它并不像人们想象的那么灾难性。

And as you said, in this series, we will also speak and focus a great deal about what can you do to start to try to optimize your sleep.

正如您所说，在本系列中，我们还将大量讨论并重点讨论您可以做什么来开始尝试优化您的睡眠。

So thank you for that opportunity.

所以感谢你给我这个机会。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

So lots of things not good for us happen when we don't sleep enough on a consistent basis.

因此，当我们睡眠不足时，就会发生很多对我们不利的事情。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

One poor night's sleep, let's face it, our species would cease to exist if that were the case-

一晚睡不好，让我们面对现实吧，如果是这样的话，我们的物种将不复存在——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Precisely

正是如此

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

because all these parents that have stayed up, where you have an emergency or the neighbor's dog is barking, or you go to an Airbnb where it's too warm and you can't sleep.

因为所有这些熬夜的父母，当你遇到紧急情况或邻居的狗在吠叫，或者你去了爱彼迎时，那里太热了，你无法入睡。

But clearly bad things start to happen when we are chronically sleep deprived.

但当我们长期睡眠不足时，显然糟糕的事情就会开始发生。

We hear less often about the great things that happen when we get great sleep.

我们很少听说当我们睡个好觉时会发生什么好事。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Perhaps we can talk about a few of those.

也许我们可以谈谈其中的一些。

Obviously, many of them are going to be just the inverse of what you just described.

显然，其中许多将与您刚才描述的相反。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But for instance, learning, neuroplasticity, the nervous system's ability to change in response to experience.

但例如，学习、神经可塑性、神经系统根据经验而变化的能力。

Sleep deprivation impairs learning, yes?

睡眠不足会影响学习，是吗？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And a great night's sleep makes it a lot easier to learn, right?

睡个好觉会让学习变得更容易，对吗？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So what are the data in terms of the relationship between sleep and learning?

那么睡眠与学习之间的关系有哪些数据呢？

Again, something we're going to go into in quite a bit more detail, but can you throw us a bone-

再说一次，我们将要更详细地讨论一些事情，但是你能给我们一个建议吗？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

about some of the-- Can you incentivize us for getting good sleep, not just through fear, but we heard the sticks.

关于一些——你能激励我们获得良好的睡眠吗？不仅仅是通过恐惧，而是我们听到了棍棒声。

Throw us a carrot.

扔给我们一根胡萝卜。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

So there are so many wonderful carrots.

所以有这么多美妙的胡萝卜。

So when you are sleeping, your brain's capacity and its learning centers are so much more ready to absorb information.

因此，当您睡觉时，您的大脑及其学习中心的能力会更容易吸收信息。

So think about these memory centers in the brain, almost like a dry sponge if you've been sleeping well, and they are so excited to soak up new information and retain that information.

因此，想想大脑中的这些记忆中心，如果你睡得很好，它们几乎就像一块干海绵，它们非常兴奋地吸收新信息并保留这些信息。

So firstly, sleep before learning is going to help you acquire and imprint new memories very effectively, and we've demonstrated that, and I'll tell you about the studies in a later episode.

因此，首先，学习前睡觉将帮助你非常有效地获得和烙印新的记忆，我们已经证明了这一点，我将在后面的节目中向你介绍这些研究。

We also know, though, sleep after learning does something delicious.

不过，我们也知道，学习后睡觉会带来很多好处。

It will take those freshly minted memories and it will consolidate them into the brain, meaning that it will start to fixate them, almost like sort of setting them in concrete into the brain.

它将把那些新形成的记忆巩固到大脑中，这意味着它将开始固定它们，几乎就像将它们固定在大脑中一样。

And so you are far less likely to lose those memories, which is to say you are far less likely to forget if you've been sleeping after you've learned.

因此，你失去这些记忆的可能性要小得多，也就是说，如果你在学习后一直在睡觉，那么你忘记的可能性就会小得多。

It's not just that, though.

但事情不仅如此。

Sleep does more than simply strengthen those individual memories.

睡眠不仅仅是增强个人记忆。

Sleep will start to cross-link and connect those memories together.

睡眠将开始交叉链接并将这些记忆连接在一起。

And as a consequence, the next day you will wake up, and that memory back catalog has now been updated with all of the recent information, and it's integrated and it's associated, so you are now able to come up with new creative solutions to issues or problems that you've been facing because you've updated what we call the associative networks in your brain.

结果，第二天你醒来时，记忆回目录现在已经更新了所有最近的信息，并且它是集成的并且是关联的，所以你现在能够针对你一直面临的问题提出新的创造性解决方案，因为你已经更新了我们所说的大脑中的联想网络。

And this is the reason that people will describe having had these insights by way of sleep and these problem-solving capacities.

这就是人们会描述通过睡眠获得这些见解和解决问题的能力的原因。

And really that's what, to me, a good student is not simply a student who can learn all of the individual rote facts and then just regurgitate them.

事实上，对我来说，一个好学生不仅仅是一个能够学习所有个人死记硬背的事实然后只是反省它们的学生。

An individual memory sitting as an isolate island is not particularly useful.

孤立的个体记忆并不是特别有用。

That's why your laptop isn't, well, as long as it's not connected to the internet now and OpenAI, it's not particularly intelligent.

这就是为什么你的笔记本电脑现在还没有连接到互联网和 OpenAI，它就不是特别智能。

It has a storage capacity that is almost more perfect than your brain.

它的存储能力几乎比你的大脑还要完美。

It doesn't make some of the memory sort of mistakes that we do.

它不会像我们那样犯一些记忆错误。

The reason it's not as intelligent as we are, in part, is because it has not integrated the information.

它不像我们那么聪明的部分原因是它没有整合信息。

It doesn't link all of the-- Wouldn't it be wonderful if you woke up one day and you'd installed a program on your computer and your computer just understood how all of the files were interrelated and connected and it was saying, "Okay, you've double-clicked on this file.

它并没有链接所有的内容——如果有一天你醒来，在你的计算机上安装了一个程序，并且你的计算机只是理解所有文件是如何相互关联和连接的，并且它说：“好吧，你已经双击了这个文件，那不是很棒吗？

Well, now I'm going to tell you that there is this related information.

那么现在我就告诉大家，有这样一个相关的信息。

You should pull this in here, and it would enhance this paragraph that you're working on, or it would improve this experimental idea that you're coming up." It doesn't do that, but your brain does that.

你应该把它放在这里，它会增强你正在研究的这一段，或者它会改进你正在提出的这个实验想法。”它不会那样做，但你的大脑会那样做。

How does it do that?

它是如何做到的？

In part, it's because sleep is building these associative networks.

部分原因是睡眠正在建立这些联想网络。

So it's not simply the student who learns the rote facts.

因此，学习死记硬背事实的不仅仅是学生。

It's the student who learns the facts and then understands what they mean Sleep is not just about learning, and it's not just about knowledge.

学生学习事实，然后理解其含义。睡眠不仅仅是学习，也不仅仅是知识。

It's about wisdom, which is knowing what it all means when you fit it together, and that's one of the other roles of sleep.

这是关于智慧，就是知道当你把它们组合在一起时意味着什么，这就是睡眠的其他作用之一。

So those are some of the beneficial things, the sort of carrots that can come by way of your learning and memory.

这些都是一些有益的东西，就像胡萝卜一样可以通过你的学习和记忆来获得。

There are so many other carrots, though.

不过，还有很多其他胡萝卜。

We described for your immune system how there is this restoration that happens during deep sleep, and it primes that.

我们为您的免疫系统描述了深度睡眠期间如何发生这种恢复，并且它为此做好了准备。

But there are other benefits, too.

但还有其他好处。

One of the things that we've discovered, and we hopefully will get to discuss this in more detail, is that sleep provides almost a rebooting of your emotional and your mood states.

我们发现的一件事是，睡眠几乎可以重新启动您的情绪和情绪状态，我们希望能够更详细地讨论这一点。

And as a consequence, you wake up the next day, and you are dressed with a very different set of emotional clothing.

结果，你第二天醒来，就会穿上一套完全不同的情感服装。

And sleep, when you're getting it, almost it's like a set of emotional windscreen wipers that has just cleared those things off, and you wake up.

睡觉时，当你得到它时，几乎就像一组情绪化的挡风玻璃雨刷刚刚清除了这些东西，然后你就醒来了。

It's the reason that people will tell you, if something is troubling you, don't worry.

这就是为什么人们会告诉你，如果有什么事情困扰你，别担心。

Just come back tomorrow.

明天就回来吧。

Just give it a night of sleep, and you'll probably feel better tomorrow.

只要睡一晚，明天你可能会感觉好一些。

That feeling better notion is sleep acting as this emotional balm that just soothes those jagged edges that we've been sort of almost like a CD getting scratched, if anyone out there knows what a CD is these days.

如果现在有人知道 CD 是什么的话，那么感觉更好的想法就是睡眠就像一种情绪安慰剂，可以抚平那些锯齿状的边缘，就像 CD 被划伤一样。

But these scratches that we get, emotional wounds, sleep is starting to heal those as well.

但我们受到的这些划痕、情感创伤、睡眠也开始治愈这些。

So those are benefits.

所以这些都是好处。

I could also mention some other aspects of your weight control and your weight gain, and this is a huge, huge effect size.

我还可以提到体重控制和体重增加的其他一些方面，这是一个巨大的效应量。

Sleep moves the needle on almost every aspect of brain and body health.

睡眠对大脑和身体健康的几乎各个方面都有影响。

I think it's very clear at this stage that there is no single tissue or major physiological system in your body and no operation of your mind that isn't wonderfully enhanced by sleep when you get it, or demonstrably impaired when you don't get enough.

我认为，在这个阶段，很明显，你身体中的任何一个组织或主要生理系统，以及你的思维运作，当你得到睡眠时，都会得到极大的增强，或者当你睡眠不足时，会明显受到损害。

But when it comes to appetite and regulation of weight gain, this is immense.

但当谈到食欲和体重增加的调节时，这是巨大的。

Firstly, what we know is that when you're getting sufficient sleep, you can create a nice concentration ratio of two appetite-regulating hormones called leptin and ghrelin.

首先，我们知道，当您获得充足的睡眠时，您可以创造出两种食欲调节激素（瘦素和生长素释放肽）的良好浓度比。

And let me go sort of in the reverse to probably give you a better example.

让我反过来也许可以给你一个更好的例子。

Let me say I deprive you of sleep.

让我说我剥夺了你的睡眠。

And what we see is that these two hormones that, and I joke, they sometimes sound like leptin and ghrelin sound like hobbits from "Lord of the Rings," but they're not.

我们看到的是，我开玩笑说，这两种激素有时听起来像瘦素和生长素释放肽，听起来像《指环王》中的霍比特人，但事实并非如此。

They're real hormones.

它们是真正的荷尔蒙。

And leptin essentially is the signal that tells your brain, okay, you're satiated by your food.

瘦素本质上是告诉你的大脑的信号，好吧，你已经吃饱了。

You're full, and you don't want to eat more.

你已经吃饱了，不想再吃更多了。

So hunger and appetite decrease.

因此饥饿感和食欲都会减少。

Ghrelin does the opposite.

胃饥饿素则相反。

When ghrelin increases, now it's the signal of hunger, and you get increasingly unsatisfied despite eating a full meal.

当生长素释放肽增加时，这就是饥饿的信号，尽管吃饱了，你还是会越来越不满足。

If you've got still high levels of ghrelin, you don't feel satisfied with that meal, and many people listening may start to say, "I have this feeling where I'm just eating, and I just don't feel satisfied on some days." And those days, I suspect, can be days when you are not sleeping well.

如果你的胃饥饿素水平仍然很高，你对这顿饭不满意，很多人可能会开始说，“我有这种感觉，我只是在吃东西，有时我感觉不满足。”我怀疑，那些日子可能是你睡眠不好的日子。

And I think everyone has had this feeling of saying, "I just didn't sleep well last night, and I just get ravenous.

我想每个人都有过这样的感觉：“我昨晚没睡好，我只是变得很饿。

I just unleash this unholy hunger and appetite." That's in part because these two hormones.

我只是释放这种邪恶的饥饿和食欲。”部分原因是这两种激素。

So what happens is that when we're not getting sufficient sleep, leptin, the signal that says, "You're satisfied with food, stop eating," that is impaired by way of lack of sleep.

因此，当我们睡眠不足时，瘦素（发出“你对食物感到满意，停止进食”的信号）的信号就会因睡眠不足而受损。

If that wasn't bad enough, the hormone ghrelin that says, "No, you're not satisfied with your food, eat more," that's the signal of hunger, that increases.

如果这还不够糟糕的话，饥饿素会说：“不，你对食物不满意，要多吃点”，这就是饥饿的信号，它会增加。

So it's almost like double jeopardy.

所以这几乎就像双重危险。

You're getting punished twice for the same crime of not sleeping, once by way of a drop in leptin, stop eating, and once by way of ghrelin, foot to the floor acceleration, I want to start eating.

你会因为同样的不睡觉罪而受到两次惩罚，一次是通过瘦素下降，停止进食，一次是通过胃饥饿素，脚着地加速，我想开始吃东西。

That's in part why your waistline can start to expand when you're not getting sufficient sleep.

这就是为什么当你睡眠不足时你的腰围会开始扩大的部分原因。

But when you do, it's a fantastic way of controlling.

但当你这样做时，这就是一种很棒的控制方式。

I guarantee you, if you start to implement better sleep, your ability to regulate your basal levels of appetite and hunger will decline.

我向你保证，如果你开始改善睡眠，你调节基础食欲和饥饿水平的能力将会下降。

But it's not just that you want to eat less, or you at least want to eat an appropriate amount for your body mass.

但这不仅仅是你想少吃，或者你至少想吃适合你体重的适量。

It's also what you want to eat.

这也是你想吃的。

And what we've discovered is that when you are, again, not getting sufficient sleep, you start to eat more.

我们发现，当您再次睡眠不足时，您就会开始吃得更多。

Yes, you do, but you eat more of specific things.

是的，你会吃，但你会吃更多特定的东西。

You crave things like these heavy-hitting sort of stodgy carbohydrates like bread and pasta and potatoes and pizza, and also you crave simple sugars.

你渴望诸如面包、意大利面、土豆和披萨之类的重口味碳水化合物，而且你还渴望单糖。

And so those foods we know in excess can be what we call obesogenic foods.

因此，我们所知道的过量食物可能就是我们所说的致肥胖食物。

They are foods that can lead you to a more rapid amount of weight gain.

它们是可以导致您体重增加更快的食物。

Whereas when you are getting sufficient sleep, now you're reaching at the food bar, you're saying, "Well, actually, I think the salad and those healthy nuts and the fruits, and those things look quite appetizing today." Versus when you are underslept, all you want to do is go after the junk food and because you've kind of got these munchies.

而当你睡眠充足时，现在你走到食品吧台前，你会说：“好吧，实际上，我认为沙拉、那些健康的坚果和水果，这些东西今天看起来很开胃。”与当你睡眠不足时相比，你想做的就是去吃垃圾食品，因为你已经有了这些零食。

What's interesting is that a recent discovery came back to that notion of the munchies.

有趣的是，最近的一项发现又回到了零食的概念。

When I say I got the munchies, people sometimes think of a drug reference.

当我说我有零食时，人们有时会想到药物。

They'll say, "Well, I've been smoking weed.

他们会说：“好吧，我一直在吸大麻。

I always get the munchies." Why is that?

我总是能吃到零食。”这是为什么？

Because when you are bringing in cannabis into the body, and these cannabinoids, these what we call exogenous cannabinoids, they will increase your appetite.

因为当你将大麻带入体内时，这些大麻素，我们称之为外源性大麻素，它们会增加你的食欲。

They will stimulate your appetite.

它们会刺激你的食欲。

Cannabinoids are appetite-stimulating components.

大麻素是刺激食欲的成分。

But we all have our own version of cannabinoids that we produce inside of our body, that you've spoken about before, called endocannabinoids.

但我们都有自己的体内产生的大麻素，您之前提到过，称为内源性大麻素。

When you are underslept, the brain releases more endocannabinoids, and that's in part why you get this strong impulse.

当你睡眠不足时，大脑会释放更多的内源性大麻素，这就是你产生这种强烈冲动的部分原因。

And thus, ergo, when you start sleeping better, you moderate all of these hormones and these chemicals, and your appetite is controlled.

因此，当你开始睡得更好时，你会调节所有这些激素和化学物质，你的食欲就会得到控制。

When you eat, you feel satisfied with your food.

当你吃饭时，你会对食物感到满意。

You're not craving more.

你不再渴望更多。

When you make your food choices, you're making better food choices.

当您选择食物时，您就做出了更好的食物选择。

We did a study with brain imaging where we underslept individuals, and we had them see food items inside of a brain scanner.

我们对睡眠不足的人进行了一项脑成像研究，让他们在脑部扫描仪中看到食物。

And they had to rate, how much do I desire and how much do I want these items?

他们必须评价，我想要多少以及我想要这些物品有多少？

And those items range from very healthy items all the way to unhealthy items.

这些物品的范围从非常健康的物品一直到不健康的物品。

Things like ice cream and pizza and all of that good stuff, and sweets.

像冰淇淋、披萨和所有这些好东西，还有糖果。

Candy, as you would say over here.

糖果，正如你在这里所说的那样。

And we looked at their ratings.

我们查看了他们的评级。

And by the way, to make this a more ecological-- Because you could say, well, they're going to know what's the healthy choice, so they're probably just going to be politically correct and say, "Oh, I desire the healthy food." The way that we tried to get around that was we said, "Anything that you said was desirable, when you come outside of the scanner, we've actually got all of these foods, and you're going to have to eat them." So they were making more realistic decisions.

顺便说一句，为了让这变得更加生态——因为你可以说，好吧，他们会知道什么是健康的选择，所以他们可能只是在政治上正确并说，“哦，我想要健康的食物。”我们试图解决这个问题的方法是，“你所说的任何你想要的东西，当你走出扫描仪时，我们实际上已经有了所有这些食物，你将不得不吃它们。”所以他们做出了更现实的决定。

And each person went through the experiment twice.

每个人都进行了两次实验。

One night after a full night of sleep, one night with significantly less sleep.

经过一整夜睡眠后的一个晚上，睡眠明显减少的一个晚上。

And sure enough, inside of the scanner, they were rating unhealthier foods as more desirable.

果然，在扫描仪内部，他们认为不健康的食物更受欢迎。

So your preference was going in that unhealthy direction.

所以你的偏好正朝着不健康的方向发展。

But what was interesting was what was going on in the brain.

但有趣的是大脑中发生的事情。

We saw that the frontal lobe regions, these sort of areas that sit above our eyes that almost act like the CEO of the brain, and they help regulate our deep emotional centers, those regions of the brain had gone offline by way of a lack of sleep.

我们看到额叶区域，这些位于我们眼睛上方的区域，几乎充当大脑的首席执行官，它们帮助调节我们的深层情感中心，大脑的这些区域因缺乏睡眠而离线。

And these emotional centers that are usually associated with more hedonic reward, and they're also excessively more active in people with obesity who have what we call hedonic eating patterns, those regions were ramped up by way of a lack of sleep.

这些情绪中心通常与更多的享乐奖励相关，并且在具有我们所谓的享乐饮食模式的肥胖者中也过于活跃，这些区域因睡眠不足而增强。

So it's not just that there are chemical changes in your body that conspire to have you eat more.

因此，导致您吃得更多的不仅仅是体内的化学变化。

There are also changes in your brain that prevent you from making the healthy food choices.

您的大脑也会发生变化，阻止您做出健康的食物选择。

But when you're getting sufficient sleep, in the control condition, when they were getting that sleep, their brain was beautifully regulating the optimal food choices.

但是，当你获得充足的睡眠时，在控制条件下，当他们获得睡眠时，他们的大脑会完美地调节最佳食物选择。

So that's just another example of a carrot, no pun intended now, that when you're getting sleep, if one of the ways you want to manage your body composition and manage your appetite is by way of getting sufficient sleep, it's actually a very powerful tool that we probably underrate.

这只是胡萝卜的另一个例子，现在没有双关语，当你睡觉时，如果你想要管理身体成分和控制食欲的方法之一是获得充足的睡眠，那么它实际上是一个非常强大的工具，我们可能低估了。

And then this other aspect, I would say, is emotional and mental wellness.

我想说，另一个方面是情感和心理健康。

Everyone knows that your emotional and mood states will take a nosedive like a dart into the ground when you're not getting sufficient sleep.

每个人都知道，当您睡眠不足时，您的情绪和情绪状态会像飞镖一样坠入地下。

It's that idea of, I just snapped, dot, dot, dot.

这就是我刚才的想法，点，点，点。

And those are the words that usually are uttered by people who are not usually sleeping very well.

这些话通常是睡眠质量不佳的人说出来的。

But when you're getting good sleep, it's so much easier to regulate and manage those emotions.

但是，当您获得良好的睡眠时，调节和管理这些情绪就会变得容易得多。

And Michael Grandner, great sleep researcher, he did an interesting study.

伟大的睡眠研究者迈克尔·格兰德纳（Michael Grandner）做了一项有趣的研究。

And it was one of those studies, like many studies I read from my colleagues, that my initial reaction to the study was jealousy because it was such a good study, and I was jealous that I didn't think of the idea.

这是其中一项研究，就像我从同事那里读到的许多研究一样，我对这项研究的最初反应是嫉妒，因为这是一项很好的研究，我很嫉妒我没有想到这个想法。

And now gradually with my senior age, I've disabused myself of that ego, and very quickly I then think, "This is the best paper, and I can't wait to tweet it out." But he did a great study.

现在，随着年龄的增长，我逐渐摆脱了这种自我意识，很快我就想，“这是最好的论文，我迫不及待地想把它发布到推特上。”但他做了很好的研究。

And it was only quite recently.

而且是最近才发生的事。

He asked, what are the reasons that people want to try to improve sleep?

他问道，人们想要尝试改善睡眠的原因是什么？

You would've thought that we'd have known this decades ago.

你可能会认为我们几十年前就知道了这一点。

And it's a relevant question to the point that you're asking, which is about these carrots.

这是一个与您所问的问题相关的问题，与这些胡萝卜有关。

I know that there is still probably some degree of a sleep loss epidemic out there in the world.

我知道世界上可能仍然存在某种程度的睡眠不足流行病。

There is still that sleep machismo mentality that I can sleep when I'm dead.

还有那种睡觉大男子主义心态，我死了还能睡。

So how can we try to motivate people?

那么我们如何才能激励人们呢？

Well, I can do it with the stick, and I can do the whole sort of if it bleeds, it leads, and do the doomsday stuff, and that can motivate.

好吧，我可以用棍子做到这一点，我可以做所有事情，如果它流血，它引导，并做世界末日的事情，这可以激励。

But why don't I try to understand what it would be for most people that would have them try to enact better sleep behaviors?

但我为什么不尝试去了解一下，对于大多数人来说，如何才能让他们尝试采取更好的睡眠行为呢？

And they asked all sorts of different options.

他们询问了各种不同的选择。

And the two things at the end of the paper when they did all the statistics that stood out like two sore thumbs.

当他们做了所有统计数据时，论文末尾的两件事就像两个酸痛的拇指一样突出。

I want to try to improve my sleep because I want to improve my mood.

我想尝试改善我的睡眠，因为我想改善我的情绪。

I want to improve my sleep because I want to improve my body weight.

我想改善睡眠，因为我想改善体重。

People know it.

人们知道这一点。

They already knew it.

他们已经知道了。

We didn't have to show them the data.

我们不必向他们展示数据。

And so it's just interesting.

所以这很有趣。

So I'm just bringing those two things up as carrot examples.

所以我只是将这两件事作为胡萝卜的例子。

There are many others, of course, too.

当然，还有很多其他的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Terrific examples of carrots that one can get if they get adequate sleep.

如果睡眠充足，人们可以获得胡萝卜的绝佳例子。

And we'll talk about quality and some other features of sleep that are important in just a moment.

我们稍后将讨论睡眠质量和其他一些重要的特征。

But I'm curious, how come when we are sleep deprived, we get bags under our eyes and our skin health shows it?

但我很好奇，为什么当我们睡眠不足时，我们的皮肤健康状况就会出现眼袋呢？

Like even one day.

就像有一天。

If you know someone well, and you see them regularly, and they walk in, and they look particularly well-rested.

如果你很了解某人，并且经常见到他们，当他们走进来时，他们看起来休息得特别好。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So we think they're kind of bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, so to speak.

所以我们认为它们是眼睛明亮、尾巴浓密的，可以这么说。

But you can often see it in their skin and in their eyes, how glassy their eyes are, how open their eyes are, but also the bags under their eyes.

但你经常可以从他们的皮肤和眼睛中看到这一点，他们的眼睛有多么呆滞，他们的眼睛有多大，还有他们的眼袋。

And of course, folks, never say to somebody, "You look tired." It's the other way to ...

当然，朋友们，永远不要对别人说：“你看起来很累。”这是另一种方式...

do it is just if they look particularly well-rested on a given day, say, "You look well rested."

如果他们在某一天看起来休息得特别好，就说“你看起来休息得很好”。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Actually, I told you that today.

事实上，我今天就告诉过你了。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

You did.

你做到了。

You did.

你做到了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I did.

我做到了。

I did.

我做到了。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Eight, 9:00 a.m.

八点，上午 9:00

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's right.

没错。

I would've forgot about that.

我会忘记那件事的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But now I remember.

但现在我想起来了。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it's true, you look very well rested, being the sleep guy and all.

确实，你看起来休息得很好，是个爱睡觉的人。

Why do we show our lack of sleep in our skin so rapidly?

为什么我们的皮肤如此迅速地表现出睡眠不足的情况？

It's almost like a thermometer on how much sleep somebody got the night before.

它几乎就像一个温度计，记录某人前一天晚上的睡眠时间。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

It's stunning, isn't it?

太棒了，不是吗？

And you can almost see it, if you have a partner and they come through to the sort of kitchen in the morning, and they look at you, and because you're so familiar with that face, because it's a face that has imprinted on you thousands of times, you can notice subtle changes.

你几乎可以看到它，如果你有一个伴侣，他们早上来到厨房，他们看着你，因为你对那张脸非常熟悉，因为这张脸已经在你身上留下了数千次的印记，你可以注意到微妙的变化。

And you can sometimes sense, they do look tired, but you're absolutely right, you don't say that.

有时你可以感觉到，他们看起来确实很累，但你是绝对正确的，你没有这么说。

You just say, "Oh, how are you this morning?" And, "Is there anything I can do for you?

你只需说：“哦，你今天早上怎么样？”并且，“有什么我可以为你做的吗？

Should I make you a coffee?" And-

要我给你泡杯咖啡吗？”还有——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Maybe you should go back to sleep.

也许你应该回去睡觉。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

I think that's the politically correct indirect way of saying-

我认为这是政治正确的间接说法——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right

右

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

"Boy, do you look tired." Two things on that front.

“小伙子，你看起来很累吗？”这方面有两件事。

The first, it comes back to the immune system.

首先，它回到免疫系统。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

That sort of pale pallor in a face, almost that sickly looking skin, in part is because you're already seeing the effects of the immune system, and it's the same with the bags under the eyes.

脸色苍白，皮肤看起来几乎病态，部分原因是你已经看到了免疫系统的影响，眼袋也是如此。

That part of this reboot of the human being, that human beings seem to have what I would describe as a recycle rate, and it seems to be about 16 hours.

人类重启的这一部分，人类似乎有我所说的回收率，似乎大约是 16 小时。

That after about 16 hours of wakefulness, we need about an eight hour-ish, and it's seven to nine hours is the recommendation.

在大约 16 个小时的清醒之后，我们需要大约八个小时左右，建议是七到九个小时。

Don't get hung up on eight, and we'll speak about exactly that in a second.

不要纠结于八，我们稍后会详细讨论这一点。

But that seems to be required to reset this whole panoply of health and physiology of a human being.

但这似乎需要重置人类的整个健康和生理机能。

One of the things is the immune system, and you get this sickly look about individuals.

其中之一是免疫系统，你会看到个人的病态表情。

And you get the bags under the eyes.

然后你就会出现眼袋。

So that, in part, explains it.

这在一定程度上解释了这一点。

There was a great study done by a colleague of mine, Tina Sundelin, and working out in Sweden at the Karolinska.

我的一位同事蒂娜·桑德林（Tina Sundelin）在瑞典卡罗林斯卡大学进行了一项出色的研究。

And this again, was one of those studies that I just thought was so genius, and it was a two-part study.

这又是我认为非常天才的研究之一，它是一项由两部分组成的研究。

They firstly took individuals, and they sleep deprived them for a night, or they allowed them to sleep well.

他们首先带走个人，剥夺他们一晚的睡眠，或者让他们睡个好觉。

And in fact, they went through both of those.

事实上，他们都经历过这些。

And after a full night of sleep or after a night of sleep deprivation, they went into a studio, and they had their picture taken.

经过一整夜的睡眠或一整夜的睡眠不足后，他们走进工作室，拍了照片。

They had a portrait shot done under identical lighting conditions.

他们在相同的照明条件下拍摄了一张肖像照。

So now, for every participant in the study, you've got two headshots.

所以现在，对于研究中的每个参与者，你都有两张头像。

One of when they were sleep deprived, one when they were sleep rested.

一种是当他们睡眠不足时，另一种是当他们睡眠休息时。

Great.

伟大的。

Now came the second part of the experiment.

现在是实验的第二部分。

They then took all of those headshots, and they recruited a new set of participants who acted as an independent set of judges.

然后，他们拍摄了所有这些爆头照片，并招募了一组新的参与者，他们充当独立的评委。

And those judges knew nothing about the experimental conditions and the manipulations that had just happened.

而那些评判者对刚刚发生的实验条件和操作一无所知。

They were simply shown these images, and they were asked to rate, how attractive does this person look?

他们只是简单地看到这些图像，然后要求他们评价这个人看起来有多有吸引力？

How healthy does this person look?

这个人看起来有多健康？

And how tired does this person look?

而且这个人看起来有多累？

And again, they knew nothing about what was going on.

再说一遍，他们对发生的事情一无所知。

Sure enough, with very high statistical probability, when the headshot that was taken when they were under-slept, they rated that individual as looking less attractive, as looking more sickly in terms of their appearance, and also looking more tired.

果然，以非常高的统计概率，当他们在睡眠不足时拍摄爆头时，他们认为那个人看起来不太有吸引力，外表看起来更病态，而且看起来更疲惫。

So first, they had proven this thing called beauty sleep, that you look a more attractive version of you when you're getting sufficient sleep.

首先，他们证明了一种叫做“美容睡眠”的东西，即当您获得充足的睡眠时，您看起来会更有吸引力。

But they also noticed this sickliness sort of composition to someone's face.

但他们也注意到某人脸上有这种病态的表情。

So that's a very long way of explaining the bags under the eyes.

这就是解释眼袋的一个很长的方法。

I'm sorry.

对不起。

I go off on these tangents, Andrew, and-

我就这样离题了，安德鲁，然后——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Not a tangent at all.

根本不是切线。

I asked, you answered, and here we are.

我问，你回答，我们就到了。

Okay, so you've been explaining the different dimensions of sleep, the underlying physiology, some of the psychological and physiological consequences of getting not enough sleep, enough sleep, et cetera.

好的，你已经解释了睡眠的不同维度、潜在的生理学、睡眠不足、睡眠充足等造成的一些心理和生理后果。

I think a question that everybody is asking themselves is, A, how much sleep should they get?

我认为每个人都在问自己的一个问题是，他们应该得到多少睡眠？

And B, what is really great sleep?

B，什么是真正好的睡眠？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And then, of course, there are all these other parameters of sleep.

当然，还有所有其他睡眠参数。

Leaving aside whether or not one sleeps a little bit reclined or on their side, et cetera.

暂且不论一个人睡觉时是否稍微倾斜或侧卧等等。

How should we think about this activity that you're calling sleep?

我们应该如何看待这个你称之为睡眠的活动？

How should we break it down?

我们该如何分解呢？

What are the variables that we need to think about in terms of being able to ask ourselves how well or poorly we're doing?

为了能够问自己做得好还是差，我们需要考虑哪些变量？

And for lack of a better way to put it, to optimize our sleep.

因为缺乏更好的方式来表达，即优化我们的睡眠。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

So I think to me, the question of what is good sleep, at first it seems to be obvious.

所以我认为对我来说，什么是良好的睡眠这个问题，乍一看似乎是显而易见的。

You can come through, again, to your partner in the morning, and they'll say, "How did you sleep?" And you have an answer.

你可以在早上再次打电话给你的伴侣，他们会问：“你睡得怎么样？”你有一个答案。

I slept well, or I don't think I did sleep well.

我睡得很好，或者说我觉得我睡得不好。

So we all have some subjective sense.

所以我们都有一些主观感觉。

But science for the most part, science and medicine, has usually used a singular rubric, which I think is reasonable, which is quantity.

但科学在很大程度上，科学和医学，通常使用一个单一的标题，我认为这是合理的，那就是数量。

So you would hear that, okay, how much sleep do we need?

所以你会听到，好吧，我们需要多少睡眠？

And what would that look like to be good sleep?

怎样才算是良好的睡眠呢？

And the answer is, it's a quantitative answer, somewhere between seven to nine hours.

答案是，这是一个定量答案，大约在七到九个小时之间。

Well, actually, I would answer it differently.

好吧，实际上，我会以不同的方式回答这个问题。

If someone said, "How much sleep does an average person need?" I would say about 90 minutes more.

如果有人问：“一般人需要多少睡眠？”我想说大约90分钟。

If you look at the-

如果你看-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's the answer you would give everybody.

这就是你会给每个人的答案。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

How much sleep do I need?

我需要多少睡眠？

And I would say probably about 90 minutes more if you look at the average data.

如果你看一下平均数据，我想说可能还要多花 90 分钟。

But setting that-

但这样设定——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

90.

Nine zero.

九零。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Nine zero more.

九零还有。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

If you look at based on the epidemiological studies of how much people actually are getting.

如果你根据流行病学研究来看看人们实际上得到了多少。

But That metric of quantity is the way that most of us, and I've been certainly party to this as well, have answered the question as what is enough sleep or what would be a good amount of sleep?

但这个数量指标是我们大多数人（当然我也参与其中）回答这个问题的方式：什么是足够的睡眠或什么是充足的睡眠？

And good amount of sleep would be somewhere between seven to nine.

充足的睡眠时间应该在七点到九点之间。

And that's the current recommendation.

这就是当前的建议。

That's the recommendation by many health organizations, including here in the US, which is the CDC.

这是许多卫生组织的建议，包括美国的疾病预防控制中心。

They recommend or they stipulate a minimum of seven hours for the average adult.

他们建议或规定普通成年人至少需要七个小时。

To me, however, that doesn't capture the true complexity that sleep really is, and it is, as we've now discussed in the episode, a wonderfully complex ballet of physiology.

然而，对我来说，这并没有抓住睡眠真正的复杂性，正如我们现在在这一集中讨论的那样，它是一出极其复杂的生理学芭蕾舞。

And so I've stepped back and I'd really tried to think, to me, what are the main components that would constitute this recipe for good sleep?

所以我退后一步，认真思考，对我来说，构成良好睡眠秘诀的主要成分是什么？

And I've conceptualized what I would describe as the four macros of sleep, that there are, when we think of diet, that we've got three macros, fat, protein, and carbohydrate.

我已经概念化了我所描述的睡眠的四个宏，当我们想到饮食时，我们有三个宏：脂肪、蛋白质和碳水化合物。

For me, sleep actually has four macros, and you can remember this by the acronym QQRT, and it stands for quantity, quality, regularity, and timing.

对我来说，睡眠实际上有四个宏，你可以通过缩写QQRT来记住它，它代表数量、质量、规律性和时间。

QQRT, quantity, quality, regularity, and timing.

QQRT，数量、质量、规律性和时机。

And maybe I can just go into detail because I'm telling you, these are the rules for good sleep.

也许我可以详细介绍一下，因为我告诉你，这些是良好睡眠的规则。

No one responds to rules.

没有人对规则做出反应。

They respond to reasons and not rules.

他们对原因而不是规则做出反应。

So let me explain the reasons behind each one of these.

那么让我解释一下每一项背后的原因。

So quantity we've already spoken about, somewhere between seven to nine for the average adult.

我们已经讨论过这个数量，一般成年人在七到九个之间。

Let me move on to quality.

让我继续谈谈质量。

We measure quality in a variety of different ways.

我们以多种不同的方式衡量质量。

The first principle quality measure of sleep is continuity.

睡眠质量的首要衡量标准是连续性。

So meaning, was your sleep nice and continuous and you didn't wake up many times, or was your sleep fragmented and littered with many awakenings?

也就是说，您的睡眠是否良好且持续，并且没有多次醒来，或者您的睡眠是否支离破碎且经常醒来？

It was punctuated by these awakenings.

这些觉醒不时地打断了这一过程。

If it's very highly fragmented, that's what we call poor quality of sleep.

如果它的碎片化程度很高，那就是我们所说的睡眠质量差。

That's low efficiency of sleep.

这就是睡眠效率低。

So maybe you would be in bed for, let's say, nine hours, and you still got seven hours of sleep.

所以也许你会在床上躺九个小时，但你仍然有七个小时的睡眠时间。

So if all you used was your quantity measure, you would say, "Well, you've still had good sleep.

因此，如果您使用的只是数量测量，您会说：“好吧，您仍然睡得很好。

You've had seven hours." But two of those hours have been spent awake, summed total.

你已经有七个小时了。”但总共有两个小时是醒着的。

So that is very low quality of sleep, and it's what we would call a low score of efficiency.

因此，这是睡眠质量非常低的情况，这就是我们所说的低效率分数。

So if you're looking at any of your sleep trackers, that's probably best captured by sleep efficiency.

因此，如果您正在查看任何睡眠追踪器，最好的捕捉方式可能是睡眠效率。

What is sleep efficiency?

什么是睡眠效率？

Sleep efficiency is simply calculated as, of the total amount of time in bed, what percent of that time were you asleep?

睡眠效率的简单计算方法是，在床上的总时间中，您睡觉的时间占百分之几？

So if I was in bed for eight hours and I slept for six hours, I would have a sleep efficiency of 75%, because two out of the eight hours, 25% of that time, I was awake.

因此，如果我在床上睡了 8 个小时，然后睡了 6 个小时，我的睡眠效率将为 75%，因为这 8 个小时中有两个小时，即 25% 的时间，我是醒着的。

And an efficiency that is 85% or above, we typically classify as healthy sleep, and we would like to see you there or perhaps a little bit higher.

效率为 85% 或以上，我们通常将其归类为健康睡眠，我们希望在那里见到您，或者也许更高一点。

If you have a lower sleep efficiency score than that, it usually means that you're awake too much of the time, and we'll think about that and address that.

如果您的睡眠效率得分低于此值，通常意味着您醒着的时间太多，我们会考虑并解决这个问题。

So that's one measure of the second Q of the QQRT.

这是 QQRT 的第二个 Q 的衡量标准之一。

That's quality.

这就是质量。

But there's another measure that we can also use.

但我们还可以使用另一种措施。

That measure comes back to the deep sleep that we spoke about, and particularly the electrical quality of those brainwaves.

这个衡量标准又回到了我们谈到的深度睡眠，特别是那些脑电波的电质量。

So you can have deep sleep, and it can be of different qualities, electrical qualities.

所以你可以拥有深度睡眠，而且它可以具有不同的品质，电品质。

You can have deep sleep that is immensely powerful with huge epic waves, or you can have deep sleep that still is classified as deep sleep, but it's a little bit more sort of anemic in its quality.

你可以拥有非常强大的深度睡眠，伴随着巨大的史诗般的波浪，或者你可以拥有仍然被归类为深度睡眠的深度睡眠，但它的质量有点贫血。

And you can't really measure that with these sleep trackers.

而且你无法用这些睡眠追踪器真正测量这一点。

We have to use electrodes, and then we decompose the electrical brain activity using a fancy equation, and that tells us what was the amount of sort of strength of activity, what we call electrical power, in that deep sleep regiment.

我们必须使用电极，然后使用一个奇特的方程分解大脑电活动，这告诉我们在深度睡眠团中活动强度的大小，即我们所说的电功率。

So that's another measure that we use for quality.

这是我们用于质量的另一个衡量标准。

Next is regularity.

其次是规律性。

And actually, I should come back to quality.

事实上，我应该回到质量上来。

For a long time in sleep science, we were using quantity as our major metric for predictability, meaning I look at your quality and does it predict your learning or your memory?

长期以来，在睡眠科学领域，我们使用数量作为可预测性的主要指标，这意味着我会观察你的质量，它是否可以预测你的学习或记忆？

I look at your quantity and does it predict your blood sugar regulation?

我看看你的数量，它能预测你的血糖调节吗？

I look at your quantity, does it predict your immune health?

我看看你的数量，它能预测你的免疫健康状况吗？

I look at your quantity and does it predict your mortality risk?

我查看您的数量，它是否可以预测您的死亡风险？

And the answer has been yes, that quantity does predict many of those things.

答案是肯定的，这个数量确实可以预测其中的许多事情。

That's great.

那太棒了。

What was interesting is that if you look at the statistic of the predictability of quantity alone, it was strong, it was significant, but it still left a lot of unexplained, what we call variance.

有趣的是，如果你单独看数量可预测性的统计数据，它很强，很显着，但它仍然留下了很多无法解释的东西，我们称之为方差。

So it must be that there are some other things in sleep that are explaining these health metrics in addition to quantity.

因此，除了数量之外，睡眠中肯定还有其他一些因素可以解释这些健康指标。

And quality has now come online, I think in the past 10 years, as carrying as much, if not perhaps even more in certain domains, of a predictive strength in determining your mental and your physical health that quantity has.

我认为在过去的十年里，质量现在已经成为在线的，在确定你的心理和身体健康方面，质量具有与数量一样多的预测能力，甚至在某些领域可能甚至更多。

And it's at least forced me in my own research to, A, always be measuring quality in as high resolution as I can and always including it into a statistical model.

这至少迫使我在自己的研究中，A，始终以尽可能高分辨率测量质量，并始终将其纳入统计模型。

And we can do fancy things where we put those two things, pit them head to head and see which one actually ...

我们可以做一些奇特的事情，我们把这两个东西放在一起，让它们面对面地比较，看看到底是哪一个......

holds more of the statistical weight.

拥有更多的统计权重。

But certainly, quality sleep is as important, I would say now, at least as important as the quantity of sleep.

但当然，我现在想说的是，睡眠质量至少与睡眠时间一样重要。

Now, you can't shortchange on either.

现在，你不能在任何一个方面有任何欺骗。

You can't say, "Okay, did he just tell me that I should not worry about how long I'm sleeping?" So you can't just get four hours of sleep that is incredibly good quality and get away with it.

你不能说：“好吧，他刚刚是不是告诉我，我不应该担心自己睡了多久？”因此，你不可能只获得四个小时的优质睡眠就可以了。

But you also can't be in bed for nine hours or 10 hours getting seven hours of sleep, but it's really bad quality of sleep.

但你也不能在床上躺九个小时或十个小时就睡七个小时，但这样的睡眠质量确实很差。

You have to get both.

你必须两者都得到。

You can't shortchange either one of those.

你不能欺骗其中任何一个。

So at that point, you think, well, isn't that the end of the story?

那么到那时，你会想，好吧，这不是故事的结局吗？

The QQ, why do you need this R and T of QQRT?

QQ，为什么需要QQRT的这个R和T？

The regularity has come online, I would say in the past 18 months as being a relevant metric.

我想说，在过去 18 个月里，规律性已经成为一个相关指标。

You could say, "Well, hang on a second.

你可以说：“好吧，等一下。

Regularity and timing, they sound like the same." When I say regularity, I mean when you go to bed and when you wake up.

规律性和时机，听起来是一样的。”当我说规律性时，我指的是当你睡觉和醒来时。

If you keep that consistent, that is the third piece of the four macros.

如果保持一致，那就是四个宏中的第三个。

That's regularity.

这就是规律性。

I go to bed at the same time, I wake up at the same time.

我同一时间睡觉，同一时间起床。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Plus or minus how much?

加或减多少？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

So I would say plus or minus 30 minutes.

所以我想说正负 30 分钟。

That's your wiggle room.

这就是你的回旋余地。

You don't want to try.

你不想尝试。

And everyone, even I, I'm fairly puritanical about my sleep, not because I want to be some poster child and practice what I preach.

每个人，甚至是我，我对自己的睡眠都相当严格，并不是因为我想成为某个典型儿童并实践我所宣扬的。

It's simply that if you knew everything I did about sleep, it's an entirely selfish act to prioritize my sleep.

简而言之，如果你知道我在睡眠方面所做的一切，那么优先考虑我的睡眠就完全是一种自私的行为。

I don't want to die any sooner than I have to, and I don't want to live with disease any longer.

我不想早点死去，也不想再带着疾病生活。

And the greatest health insurance policy that I know of that is universally available, largely free, and mostly painless, is this thing called a night of sleep.

据我所知，最伟大的健康保险政策是普遍可用的、基本上免费且无痛的，就是所谓的一夜睡眠。

So I'll gift it to myself every single night.

所以我每天晚上都会把它送给自己。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I don't see it as selfish because, of course, when we are ill or dead, there is a burden on others.

我不认为这是自私，因为当然，当我们生病或死亡时，会给别人带来负担。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It can be an absence burden or a presence burden, depending on what and how people feel-

它可以是缺勤负担，也可以是在场负担，具体取决于人们的感受和感受——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Please look at me when you say presence burden

当你说存在负担时请看着我

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

people feel about us.

人们对我们有感觉。

But that's interesting.

但这很有趣。

Now, when you say same wake-up time, same to sleep time, plus or minus 30 minutes for each of those, is that plus or minus 30 minutes getting into bed, or are we talking about falling asleep, entering that first stage one?

现在，当你说相同的起床时间，相同的睡眠时间，每个时间加或减 30 分钟时，那是上床时间加还是减 30 分钟，还是我们正在谈论入睡，进入第一阶段？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

It's really from the time of lights out.

确实是从熄灯的时候开始的。

So okay, I've been in bed and I got into bed at the same time, but last night I went to sleep about an hour later.

好吧，我一直在床上，而且我同时上床睡觉，但昨晚我大约一个小时后才入睡。

And then the night before, I got into bed and I just turned the lights out.

然后前一天晚上，我上床睡觉，然后关了灯。

And then two nights ago, I got into bed again at the same time, but then I was online shopping, and I started chatting with a friend in a different time zone.

然后两天前的晚上，我又在同一时间上床睡觉，但后来我在网上购物，我开始和一个不同时区的朋友聊天。

And then it was two and a half hours later before lights out.

然后两个半小时后熄灯了。

That is what we would classify as irregular sleep.

这就是我们所说的睡眠不规律。

And the reason that this is really being forced on me as important, there was a great study that came out, maybe, I'll get this wrong, from about five months from the time of filming this ago.

之所以这对我来说真的很重要，是因为从拍摄前大约五个月的时间里，有一项伟大的研究出来了，也许我会弄错。

And it used a huge database, something called the UK Biobank, which is a wonderful database.

它使用了一个巨大的数据库，称为英国生物银行，这是一个很棒的数据库。

And they looked at over 60,000 individuals.

他们调查了超过 60,000 人。

And they looked, they were able to track the sleep from one night to the next, to the next, to the next.

他们观察发现，他们能够追踪从一个晚上到下一个晚上的睡眠情况。

So they had some metric of this consistency, this regularity.

所以他们有一些衡量这种一致性、这种规律性的指标。

And then they split those 60,000 individuals into quartiles.

然后他们将这 60,000 人分成四分位数。

And in their statistical model, they looked at people who were most regular versus people who were least regular.

在他们的统计模型中，他们观察了最规律的人和最不规律的人。

And they tracked them over years.

他们多年来一直在追踪他们。

What they found-- And they looked at their mortality risk, how likely was it that those people would pass away during that study interval.

他们发现了什么——他们研究了他们的死亡风险，这些人在研究期间去世的可能性有多大。

And they were also able to map what were they dying of if they passed away.

他们还能够绘制出如果他们去世的话他们会因什么而死去。

So what they found was that those people who are in the top quartile of being most regular relative to those people who are highly irregular, if you had good regular sleep, you had a 49% reduced risk of mortality relative to someone who was very irregular.

他们发现，相对于那些高度不规律的人来说，那些最规律的人，如果你有良好的规律睡眠，那么相对于那些非常不规律的人来说，你的死亡风险会降低 49%。

Of that general all-cause mortality risk, when you split it apart, there was a 35% decrease in cancer mortality specifically, and there was almost a 60% de-risking of cardiovascular mortality risk if you are regular versus irregular.

在一般全因死亡风险中，当你将其分开时，特别是癌症死亡率下降了 35%，如果你定期与不定期相比，心血管死亡风险几乎降低了 60%。

Then they did this brilliant thing because they were measuring both the quantity of sleep and when these individuals were sleeping, they did what I just said, which is they put them into a statistical model.

然后他们做了一件了不起的事情，因为他们测量了这些人的睡眠量，当这些人睡觉时，他们做了我刚才说的，即将他们放入统计模型中。

Sure enough, the quantity of sleep, just as we've shown time and time again, was very predictive of all-cause mortality, using that sweet spot of seven to nine hours.

果然，正如我们一次又一次证明的那样，睡眠时间可以很好地预测全因死亡率（使用七到九个小时的最佳时间）。

And we can speak about what happens when you start to sleep longer because it's actually very unpredicted and it's very interesting.

我们可以谈谈当你开始睡得更久时会发生什么，因为这实际上是非常不可预测的，而且非常有趣。

But sweet spot of seven to nine, the shorter your sleep, the shorter your life.

但七点到九点的最佳时间是，你的睡眠时间越短，你的寿命就越短。

That's what the data seems to suggest.

数据似乎表明了这一点。

But what they found was that that was true, yet regularity or irregular sleep carried almost twice the effect size, the magnitude of predictability that duration did.

但他们发现事实确实如此，但规律或不规律的睡眠带来的效应几乎是持续时间的两倍。

And I think the whole field, we knew that regularity, I knew that regularity was important.

我认为整个领域，我们都知道规律性，我知道规律性很重要。

I don't think we understood how important and the strength of mortality de-risking if you're regular or increased risk if you're irregular, that this metric of R carried in the QQRT equation.

我认为我们不了解 QQRT 方程中的 R 指标对于定期降低死亡率风险或不定期增加风险的重要性和强度。

So I've started to Be much more mindful myself at least, and almost over-index that.

所以我自己至少开始更加注意，并且几乎过度索引了这一点。

The final aspect comes on to timing, and I should say that we've used this essentially, this kind of equation, this sleep algorithm, as it were, of QQRT now in a lot of my work in the past at the Sleep Center in the past four or five years.

最后一个方面涉及计时，我应该说，在过去四五年里，我在睡眠中心的很多工作中，我们本质上都使用了 QQRT 的这种方程、这种睡眠算法。

And it does seem to be a pretty good proxy of covering, predictive-wise, many aspects of your health, that if you use any one of these by themselves, yeah, they help, they predict things.

从预测角度来看，它似乎确实是一个很好的代表，涵盖了您健康的许多方面，如果您单独使用其中任何一个，是的，它们会有所帮助，它们会预测事情。

But if you use them as a collective, that seems to be where you explain most of the variance.

但如果你将它们作为一个整体来使用，那么这似乎就是你解释大部分差异的地方。

Now, it's not by far a perfect measure.

现在看来，这还不是一个完美的措施。

There are even more nuanced ways that you would want to split it, and I want to split it.

你可能想要以更微妙的方式来分割它，我也想分割它。

But I would say that this is a pretty good proxy for the general public, and it seems to be, in our research, a pretty good proxy for health and wellness, too.

但我想说，这对于公众来说是一个非常好的指标，而且在我们的研究中，它似乎也是健康和保健的一个非常好的指标。

The final aspect of the QQRT, quantity, quality, regularity, comes on to timing.

QQRT 的最后一个方面是数量、质量、规律性，即时间。

How is timing different to regularity?

时机与规律有何不同？

Because regularity is about getting your sleep at the same correct time.

因为规律性就是在同一正确的时间入睡。

What I mean by timing is your chronotype.

我所说的计时是指你的生物钟类型。

So people may have heard of this phrase, "Are you a morning type, evening type, or somewhere in between?" That, it turns out is, and it's about a third, third split across the population, maybe a little bit different.

所以人们可能听说过这句话，“你是早起型、晚间型，还是介于两者之间？”事实证明，这大约是人口的三分之一，也许有点不同。

It-

它——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Does it divide up any differently according to male, female?

按男性、女性划分有什么不同吗？

And here- ...

而这里——...

presumably, we're not talking about children or teenagers.

想必，我们谈论的不是儿童或青少年。

That's a whole other business-

那是另一回事了——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

and we'll talk about that.

我们会讨论这个。

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah, so once you are an adult, because that pattern of your timing of sleep does change during development, very much so, despite we can all remember being kids and wanting to stay up with the grown-ups, and all of a sudden, the last thing we remember was 7:00 comes around, 8:00 comes around, and you think, "Great, I'm going to stay up until 10:00 or 11:00 with them."

是的，所以一旦你成年了，因为你的睡眠时间模式在发育过程中确实会发生变化，变化很大，尽管我们都记得小时候想要和大人一起熬夜，突然之间，我们记得的最后一件事是 7:00 左右，8:00 左右，你会想，“太好了，我要和他们一起熬夜到 10:00 或 11:00。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So excited.

太兴奋了。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And then you wake up the next morning because you were carried to bed because it was lights out.

然后第二天早上你醒来，因为灯灭了，你被抬上床睡觉了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

So setting that aside, once you're an adult and you have your stable rhythm in place, there is variability.

因此，抛开这一点不谈，一旦你成年了，并且有了稳定的节奏，就会出现变化。

Now, in sleep science, we break it down not into three categories, but five.

现在，在睡眠科学中，我们将其分为五类，而不是三类。

Extreme morning type, morning type, and neutral, evening type, extreme evening type.

极端早型、早型、中性、晚型、极端晚型。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, could you repeat those again?

哦，你能再重复一遍吗？

So extreme morning.

如此极端的早晨。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Extreme morning type.

极端早晨型。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So what qualifies as extreme morning type?

那么什么才算是极端早晨类型呢？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

So an extreme morning type would someone who would like to, say, go to bed around 8:00 PM, and then they would be waking up, and they wake up very easily around 4:00, 4:30 AM in the morning.

因此，极端的早起类型是指那些想要在晚上 8:00 左右上床睡觉的人，然后他们就会醒来，并且他们在早上 4:00、4:30 左右很容易醒来。

And they're bright as a bunny.

而且它们像兔子一样明亮。

They are ready to get to the gym.

他们准备去健身房。

And I'm a neutral.

而我是一个中立的人。

I just sit right in the middle.

我只是坐在中间。

So I'm kind of in a 11:00 to 7:30 kind of guy.

所以我属于那种 11:00 到 7:30 的人。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay, maybe we could walk through these.

好吧，也许我们可以讨论一下这些。

So the extreme morning type is to bed-

所以极端的早晨类型就是睡觉——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

But let's say-

但我们可以说——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

around 8:00

8:00左右

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

8:00, and they could wake up at, let's say, 4:00, 4:30, and they would be fine.

8:00，他们可以在 4:00、4:30 醒来，他们会没事的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

A morning type, maybe they would like to go to bed around 9:30.

早起型的人，也许他们想在 9:30 左右睡觉。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And then they're waking up closer to sort of 5:30, 6:00.

然后他们会在接近 5:30、6:00 时醒来。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Then you've got a neutral, like me, and I would like to go to bed probably around 11:00 PM and wake up around sort of 7:30-ish.

然后你就会有一个中立的人，就像我一样，我想大概在晚上 11:00 左右上床睡觉，并在 7:30 左右醒来。

I try to give myself about an eight and a half hour time period in bed.

我尝试给自己留出大约八个半小时的卧床时间。

And then you get to the night owls.

然后你就轮到夜猫子了。

So then you've got the evening type and then the extreme evening type, which finishes out the full five.

因此，你有晚上类型，然后是极端晚上类型，这完成了完整的五个。

The evening type, maybe they would like to go to bed, like, 12:30, 1:00.

晚上的类型，也许他们想睡觉，比如12:30、1:00。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And probably wake up around maybe 9:00, 9:30.

可能会在 9:00、9:30 左右醒来。

And then you've got the extreme evening type, and they are not ready for bed until maybe 2:30, 3:00 AM, and they're waking up middle of the morning.

然后是极端的夜间型，他们可能要到凌晨 2:30、3:00 才准备睡觉，然后在凌晨醒来。

So what's interesting about your chronotype, and by the way, people, if you want to find out your chronotype, if you want an actionable suggestion, you can just go online and you can search for something called, just type in chronotype MEQ, and that stands for the Morningness Eveningness Questionnaire, MEQ.

那么你的生物钟有什么有趣的地方呢，顺便说一句，如果你想知道你的生物钟，如果你想要一个可行的建议，你可以上网搜索一个叫做“生物钟类型MEQ”的东西，它代表早晚问卷，MEQ。

Just type in chronotype MEQ, and you will see you can fill it out.

只需输入 chronotype MEQ，您就会看到可以填写它。

It takes three, four minutes, series of questions, and it will give you back a score, and that will then bucket you into these different flavors and sort of say, "Okay." And it-

这需要三、四分钟的一系列问题，然后它会给你一个分数，然后你就会陷入这些不同的口味，然后说“好吧”。还有它——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I've tried all of these.

我已经尝试过所有这些。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And you, okay.

还有你，好吧。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I hate to admit it, but if I had my preference, I would go to sleep at 8:00, 8:30 and wake up at 4:30 or so.

我不愿意承认这一点，但如果我有自己的偏好，我会在 8:00、8:30 睡觉，并在 4:30 左右醒来。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Well, let me ask you this question because rather than doing the MEQ, there's a single question I normally ask and say, "Okay, Andrew, I now put you on a desert island."

好吧，让我问你这个问题，因为我通常会问一个问题，然后说：“好吧，安德鲁，我现在把你放在荒岛上。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Alone?

独自一人？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And alone.

而且独自一人。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

You've got nothing to wake up for, no electricity, no responsibilities, no nothing.

你没有什么可醒来的，没有电，没有责任，什么都没有。

What time do you think your body would like to go to sleep and wake up?

您认为您的身体想什么时候睡觉并醒来？

And I say that specifically because if I ask you what time would you like to, you're still biased in your head-

我这么说是因为如果我问你想什么时间去，你的头脑仍然有偏见——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Sure

当然可以

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

by all of the trappings of society and this terrible bias towards morning types.

社会上所有的装饰和对早起类型的可怕偏见。

Do you think that naturally, that's probably the regiment that you would do?

您是否认为这自然是您会选择的团？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, great question.

是的，很好的问题。

I would go to sleep sometime between 90 and 120 minutes after sundown.

我会在日落后 90 到 120 分钟之间的某个时间睡觉。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Okay.

好的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So that's why I was going to answer I'm either an extreme morning type or a morning type.

所以这就是为什么我要回答我要么是极端早晨型，要么是早晨型。

I can go to bed around 9:30, wake up at 5:00 feeling great.

我可以在 9:30 左右上床睡觉，5:00 起床，感觉很好。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Okay.

好的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Or go to sleep early, 8:00, 8:30, wake up at 4:00, and really want to get up and write-

或者早点睡觉，8:00、8:30，4:00起床，很想起来写——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

You're, like, on it and-

你，就像，在上面并且-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

and exercise.

和锻炼。

Now, that's not the schedule I follow.

现在，这不是我遵循的时间表。

I may start to follow that schedule.

我可能会开始遵循那个时间表。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Okay.

好的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I've tried for various portions of my life, but typically, I end up defaulting to going to sleep a bit later, 10:00, 10:30, waking up around-

我在生活的各个方面都尝试过，但通常情况下，我最终会默认晚一点睡觉，10:00、10:30，大约在-

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Okay

好的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

6:00, 6:30.

6:00、6:30。

And that's assuming that there are no events in my life that are disrupting my sleep, because then I'm really going to sleep in if I can, and a bunch of things-

这是假设我的生活中没有任何事件扰乱我的睡眠，因为如果可以的话我真的会睡个懒觉，还有很多事情-

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Right.

对。

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

to try and compensate.

去尝试和补偿。

But assuming everything is Cool in life and in the room that I sleep.

但假设生活中和我睡觉的房间里的一切都很酷。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

That's the spirit.

这就是精神。

There you go.

就这样吧。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

I would say going to sleep at 9:00 and waking up at about 4:35 a.m.-

我想说的是 9:00 睡觉，凌晨 4:35 左右起床-

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Okay

好的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

feels great.

感觉很棒。

In fact, I always thought of it as a bit of an antidepressant feel.

事实上，我一直认为它有一点抗抑郁的感觉。

I don't consider myself somebody who's depressed, but I could get a little low-level malaise if I'm staying up till 11:30, 12:00, and even waking up at 7:00.

我不认为自己是抑郁症患者，但如果我熬夜到 11:30、12:00，甚至 7:00 起床，我可能会感到有点轻微的不适。

I don't feel quite right.

我感觉不太对劲。

And when I go to bed early and wake up early, I feel really, really good-

当我早睡早起时，我感觉真的非常好——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

You do

你做的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

all day long.

一整天。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And what's interesting about that is it works both ways.

有趣的是它是双向的。

So that malaise that you're speaking about also happens for evening types who are forced to be morning types.

因此，你所说的那种不适也会发生在晚上类型的人身上，而他们被迫成为早晨类型的人。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Unsympathetic.

没有同情心。

No, I'm kidding.

不，我在开玩笑。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Just kidding.

开玩笑。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Society is we are desperately biased towards the morning types, and we chastise and stigmatize evening types as being slothful or lazy, that they just can't get it together.

社会是我们对早起的人极度偏见，我们惩罚和指责晚间的人懒惰或懒惰，他们就是无法相处。

Why can't you be at the gym at 6:00 a.m.

为什么你不能早上 6:00 去健身房

and in the office by 9:30 or 7:30?

9:30 或 7:30 到办公室？

What's wrong with you?

你这人怎么回事？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, I'm chuckling because I was weaned in academia, and the late Ben Barrus, who was my postdoc advisor and then later a colleague that unfortunately he passed away in 2017, but he used to say, "I don't do mornings." Now, he was our department chair at the time.

好吧，我笑了，因为我是在学术界断奶的，而已故的本·巴勒斯 (Ben Barrus) 是我的博士后顾问，后来成为我的同事，不幸的是，他于 2017 年去世了，但他过去常说，“我不做早晨。”现在，他当时是我们的系主任。

But he would just say, "I don't do mornings." But he would come in around 11:00 a.m.

但他只会说：“我不做早晨。”但他会在上午 11:00 左右到来。

or noon, but he would stay until 3:00 in the morning.

或中午，但他会待到凌晨 3:00。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I feel like there's been a cultural shift.

我觉得文化发生了转变。

I feel like 10 years ago, if you were the person who stayed late at the office or the lab, you were considered a hard worker.

我觉得十年前，如果你是在办公室或实验室熬夜的人，你就会被认为是一个勤奋的人。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But getting in early at that time, it seems, was not as rewarded.

但当时早期介入似乎并没有得到那么好的回报。

Nowadays, maybe something's just changed in my world, but I feel like the person who gets in first kind of gets the prize in terms-

如今，也许我的世界发生了一些变化，但我觉得第一种进入的人会获得奖品——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

of the psychological credential.

的心理资历。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

There is that reward bias that's given.

存在奖励偏差。

It's this notion, the early bird catches the worm.

就是这个道理，早起的鸟儿有虫吃。

So I think we're desperately unkind.

所以我认为我们非常不友善。

Society is engineered towards morning types, and it's engineered against evening types.

社会是为早起类型设计的，也是针对晚上类型设计的。

The reason that that's not fair is that this-- And I'll come back to timing again and how it works and why it's important and the fourth ingredient, the fourth macro.

这不公平的原因是——我会再次回到计时以及它是如何工作的以及为什么它很重要以及第四个要素，第四个宏。

But coming to chronotype, the reason it's unfair is that it's not your fault, that your chronotype is largely genetically dictated.

但说到时间类型，它不公平的原因是这不是你的错，你的时间类型很大程度上是由基因决定的。

And we now understand that there are at least 22 different genes which augment your chronotype, which determine your chronotype.

我们现在了解到，至少有 22 种不同的基因可以增强您的生物钟类型，从而决定您的生物钟类型。

In other words, it is gifted to you at birth, it's hardwired, and it is not your fault.

换句话说，它是你一出生就被赋予的，是与生俱来的，这不是你的错。

Yet we still have this stigma and this, I think, disgraceful, not only underappreciation, but almost this kind of wry look.

然而我们仍然有这种耻辱，我认为这是可耻的，不仅是低估，而且几乎是这种讽刺的表情。

Evening types are of a certain kind, not very favorably viewed.

晚间型是一种不太受欢迎的类型。

So think about it this way.

所以这样想吧。

Let's think about another trait, eye color, that is genetically determined, and you were to look at me and you would say, "Ah, he's got blue eyes.

让我们考虑另一个特征，眼睛的颜色，这是由基因决定的，你看着我，你会说，“啊，他有蓝眼睛。

You're kind of lazy because you've got blue eyes.

你有点懒，因为你有蓝眼睛。

Oh, you've got green eyes?

哦，你有绿色的眼睛吗？

Gosh, that's wonderful.

天哪，那太棒了。

Well done.

干得好。

Congratulations." Wait a second.

恭喜你。”等一下。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Crazy.

疯了。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

I didn't get the choice.

我没有得到选择。

It's genetics.

这是遗传因素。

Well, it's the same with your chronotype.

嗯，这和你的生物钟类型是一样的。

But coming back to why, for me, I included it in this sort of algorithm of what is good sleep.

但回到为什么，对我来说，我把它包含在这种什么是良好睡眠的算法中。

If I were to take an extreme morning type and force them to stay awake until midnight, they're going to be incredibly tired.

如果我采取极端的早晨方式并强迫他们保持清醒直到午夜，他们会非常疲倦。

They're going to be so tired, and they're going to be grumpy and miserable, and they will have no problem falling asleep.

他们会很累，脾气暴躁，痛苦不堪，但他们会毫无问题地入睡。

The problem, however, is that they're still going to, because of their natural chronotype, which determines your circadian rhythm.

然而问题是，它们仍然会这样做，因为它们的自然生物钟类型决定了你的昼夜节律。

So everyone has this 24-hour circadian rhythm.

所以每个人都有这个24小时的昼夜节律。

You've been a wonderful proponent of that and done incredible work in this area.

您一直是这一领域的杰出支持者，并在该领域做出了令人难以置信的工作。

We all have this 24-hour rhythm, and it looks like a sinusoidal wave.

我们都有这种 24 小时的节奏，它看起来像正弦波。

It sort of goes up, and we, as a diurnal species, we're active and awake during the day, and then you get this awesome downswing at night, and we're inactive at night.

它有点上升，而我们，作为一个昼夜物种，我们在白天活跃且清醒，然后你会在晚上得到这个令人敬畏的下降，我们在晚上不活动。

And it steps and repeats.

它一步步重复。

It's just a 24-hour cycle.

这只是一个24小时的循环。

Everyone has that.

每个人都有这个。

So why doesn't everyone fit the same chronotype timing model of sleep if we all have a 24-hour clock?

那么，如果我们都有 24 小时生物钟，为什么不是每个人都适合相同的睡眠时间型计时模型呢？

Well, what's different is that where that peak and that trough sit on the 24-hour clock face varies from one individual to the next, and that is what we call chronotype.

嗯，不同的是，24 小时钟面上的波峰和波谷的位置因人而异，这就是我们所说的计时型。

So this comes back to why it's important.

所以这又回到了为什么它很重要。

The morning type, they are in their awesome downswing of their circadian rhythm at midnight, and they are miserable.

早晨型的人在午夜时分的昼夜节律急剧下降，他们很痛苦。

They're desperate for sleep.

他们非常想睡觉。

And when you put them into bed at midnight, four hours later than they would otherwise, they are gone.

当你在午夜把他们放到床上时，比平时晚了四个小时，他们就消失了。

The problem is their circadian rhythm now starts to climb back up around 4:30 in the morning.

问题是他们的昼夜节律现在在早上 4:30 左右开始回升。

And even though they went to bed at midnight, they're probably going to wake up artificially before the eight-hour or seven- to nine-hour completion, and they're going to be short-slept on the back end of sleep.

即使他们在午夜上床睡觉，他们也可能会在八小时或七到九小时完成之前人为地醒来，并且他们会在睡眠结束时睡得很短。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

This happens to me many, many times.

这种事在我身上发生过很多很多次。

I want to go to bed around 8:30 or 9:00, but for social or work reasons, I stay up until 11:30 or 12:00.

我想在 8:30 或 9:00 左右上床睡觉，但出于社交或工作原因，我会熬夜到 11:30 或 12:00。

I fall asleep very easily.

我很容易就睡着了。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Almost always have fallen asleep easily.

几乎总是很容易入睡。

And then 3:30, 4:00 in the morning, I'm awake.

然后凌晨3:30、4:00，我就醒了。

Oh, God.

哦，上帝。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And you cannot get-- It's almost as though-

你无法得到——这几乎就像——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's work

这是工作

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

I was telling you, okay, we can-

我告诉你，好吧，我们可以-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I tend to do this Yoga Nidra non-sleep deep rest, and sometimes I can fall back asleep that way, but-

我倾向于做这种瑜伽休息术，不睡觉深度休息，有时我可以这样重新睡着，但是-

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

oftentimes it's a struggle.

很多时候这是一场斗争。

And so I've been-

所以我一直——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And it's a struggle because of your chronotype and your circadian rhythm-

由于你的生物钟类型和昼夜节律，这是一场斗争——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's right

没错

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

which is on its wonderful piston upswing now.

现在正处于美妙的活塞上升阶段。

Apologies for the motorsport reference, but I

对赛车运动的参考表示歉意，但我

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Can't help yourself

无法自拔

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah, can't help myself.

是的，我无法自拔。

I'm sorry.

对不起。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Matt's a big F1 fan, folks, just as is Peter Attia.

伙计们，马特是 F1 的忠实粉丝，就像彼得·阿提亚一样。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

So anyway, the awesome upswing that you're experiencing for your circadian rhythm prevents you from sleeping in further.

所以无论如何，你所经历的昼夜节律的惊人上升会阻止你睡得更久。

But now let's reverse the table.

但现在让我们颠倒一下表格。

Let's take the evening type, and I put them into bed at 9:00 PM or 10:00 PM, when normally they will not be ready for sleep until 1:00 AM.

以晚间型为例，我在晚上 9:00 或晚上 10:00 让他们上床睡觉，通常他们要到凌晨 1:00 才能准备睡觉。

And they're lying in bed, and they are wide awake, and they cannot fall asleep.

他们躺在床上，完全清醒，无法入睡。

And this is the principal reason that I will get evening types coming to me, and they'll say, "Look, I think I've got terrible insomnia." You can think about insomnia in lots of different ways, but there may be two broad categories.

这就是晚上类型的人来找我的主要原因，他们会说：“看，我想我失眠得很厉害。”您可以通过多种不同的方式来思考失眠，但可能有两大类。

One is that you have sleep onset insomnia, I can't fall asleep.

一是你有入睡失眠，我睡不着。

Or the second is, I have sleep maintenance insomnia, which is the sort of thing that you were describing, which is where, and I don't think you have insomnia, but just as an example, you fall asleep quickly, but you can't stay asleep.

或者第二个是，我有睡眠维持性失眠，这就是你所描述的那种情况，我不认为你有失眠，但只是举个例子，你很快入睡，但你无法保持睡眠状态。

That's sleep maintenance insomnia.

这就是睡眠维持性失眠。

So they will come to me with the opposite of your concern, which is that they say, "I just cannot fall asleep." And I say, "Okay, let me just ask you a few questions," and we go through the chronotype questionnaire, and it's very clear that they are an evening type.

所以他们会带着与你相反的担忧来找我，他们会说：“我就是睡不着。”我说，“好吧，让我问你几个问题”，然后我们完成了睡眠类型调查问卷，很明显他们是晚睡型。

And there's lots of different things that you would want to exclude to make sure they don't have insomnia.

您需要排除许多不同的因素，以确保他们不会失眠。

And then you could say, "You actually don't have insomnia.

然后你可以说：“你实际上没有失眠。

You're just an evening type and you're going to bed at the wrong moment in time.

你是夜猫子，你会在错误的时间上床睡觉。

And if you're to try to go to bed at midnight, you're not going to suffer from the problems that you have, and you'll sleep through later." But of course, their response is, "Well, I need to be in work by 8:00 AM, and I've got an hour commute, so I have to be awake at 6:30, so I need to be in bed by 10:00." So on both of these ends, you can see that the morning type, who goes to bed too late, falls asleep easily but can't stay asleep.

如果你尝试在半夜上床睡觉，你就不会再受现有问题的困扰，而且你会睡得更晚。”当然，他们的回答是，“嗯，我需要在早上 8:00 之前上班，而且我有一个小时的通勤时间，所以我必须在 6:30 起床，所以我需要在 10:00 之前上床睡觉。”所以从这两个方面来看，你可以看到，早睡型的人，睡得太晚，很容易入睡，但睡不着。

The evening type, who is forced to go to bed too early, they can't fall asleep, but then they stay asleep, and when the alarm goes off at 6:30 AM, they don't want to wake up.

晚上型的人，被迫太早上床睡觉，他们无法入睡，但他们会一直睡着，当早上6:30闹钟响起时，他们不想醒来。

So this is why when you sleep out of synchrony with your chronotype, things do not look good.

这就是为什么当你的睡眠与你的生物钟类型不同步时，事情看起来就不太好。

So in those two circumstances, let's say that I standardize it.

因此，在这两种情况下，我们可以说我将其标准化。

Everyone is going to go to bed at 10:00 PM and wake up at 6:00 AM.

每个人都会在晚上 10:00 睡觉，早上 6:00 起床。

And let's say that we've got a morning type, not an extreme morning type, who kind of likes to go to bed around 9:45.

假设我们有一个早起类型，而不是极端的早起类型，他喜欢在 9:45 左右上床睡觉。

They are going to sleep very well.

他们会睡得很好。

It's very close to their natural rhythm.

这非常接近他们的自然节奏。

And then I get an extreme evening type who likes to go to bed at 2:00 AM, and I have them sleep the same opportunity amount, eight hours, at the very same time.

然后，我遇到了一个喜欢在凌晨 2:00 上床睡觉的极端夜型人，我让他们在同一时间睡同样的时间，即八个小时。

Well, surely they should be identical.

嗯，它们肯定应该是相同的。

They're not going to be.

他们不会的。

It's not that they don't have the same opportunity.

并不是说他们没有同样的机会。

They do, eight hours.

他们这样做了，八个小时。

It's just that one is placed at the inappropriate time on the 24-hour clock for the evening type, but appropriately for the morning type.

只是对于晚上型来说，24 小时制的时间设置不合适，但对于早晨型来说则合适。

And thus, the quality of sleep that they each have is very different.

因此，他们每个人的睡眠质量都有很大不同。

And that's why you always need to build into a metric of what is good sleep.

这就是为什么您总是需要建立一个衡量良好睡眠的指标。

It's not just about quantity or quality or getting it regular.

这不仅仅是数量、质量或定期进行的问题。

It's also about where do you place your sleep opportunity window on that 24-hour clock face to align with your chronotype.

它还涉及您将睡眠机会窗口放置在 24 小时钟面上的什么位置，以与您的生物钟类型保持一致。

When you fight biology, you normally lose, and the way you know you've lost is disease and sickness.

当你与生物学作斗争时，你通常会失败，而你知道自己失败的方式就是疾病。

That's why, to me, that final T of QQRT is so critical.

这就是为什么对我来说 QQRT 的最后一个 T 如此重要。

Does that sort of unpack and explain this?

这样可以解开并解释这一点吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Beautifully.

漂亮极了。

Yes, beautifully.

是的，很漂亮。

And as you were finishing up there, I was thinking that first of all, we've heard of chronotypes, or many of us have, but the way you described it makes it extremely clear as to why this almost has to be the case.

当你结束时，我在想，首先，我们听说过时间类型，或者我们很多人都听说过，但是你描述它的方式非常清楚地说明了为什么这几乎必须是这种情况。

Because if we think about the extreme example of mistimed sleep, which is shift work, being awake at night and sleeping during the day, essentially nobody has that chronotype.

因为如果我们考虑一下不合时宜的睡眠的极端例子，即轮班工作、晚上醒着、白天睡觉，基本上没有人有这种睡眠类型。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But people force it upon themselves.

但人们却把它强加于自己。

And by the way, thank you, shift workers.

顺便说一句，谢谢你们，轮班工人。

We need you.

我们需要你。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

If I have an appendicitis at 4:00 AM in the morning, I'm very grateful for people who can help save my life.

如果我在凌晨 4:00 得了阑尾炎，我会非常感谢那些能够帮助挽救我生命的人。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Truckers, airline employees, and on and on.

卡车司机、航空公司员工等等。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Nurses, et cetera.

护士等等。

Parents taking care of kids in the middle of the night.

父母半夜还要照顾孩子。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's shift work.

这就是轮班工作。

But we know that there are health issues associated with being nocturnal and sleeping during the day.

但我们知道夜间活动和白天睡眠会带来健康问题。

But of course, there are a bunch of other variables, like lack of availability of sunlight if you're sleeping during the day and you're awake at night.

但当然，还有许多其他变量，例如，如果您白天睡觉而晚上醒着，则缺乏阳光。

But I realize there's no reason to think that one can slide their sleep timing around even by a few hours and still get away with it.

但我意识到，没有理由认为一个人可以将睡眠时间推迟几个小时，但仍然可以逃脱惩罚。

In other words, this notion of chronotypes makes perfect sense.

换句话说，这种时间类型的概念是完全有道理的。

It's just that the shift work is the most extreme example of being out of sync-

只是轮班工作是不同步的最极端的例子——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

It's a very good example

这是一个很好的例子

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

with your chronotype.

与你的生物钟类型。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Precisely.

正是如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So I'm certainly going to take this chronotype test, but I'll tell you right now, if I could get to sleep tonight at 9:00 and wake up at 4:00, that would feel so good.

所以我当然会参加这个计时型测试，但我现在就告诉你，如果我今晚能在 9:00 入睡并在 4:00 醒来，那感觉真好。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

I'm going to put you in my car.

我要把你放进我的车里。

I'm going to do an intervention.

我要做一个干预。

You are going to be in bed by nine o'clock this evening.

今天晚上九点钟你就要上床睡觉了。

Non-negotiable.

没有商量的余地。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Fair enough.

很公平。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, so we have QQRT, right?

嗯，我们有 QQRT，对吧？

Quantity, quality, regularity, and timing.

数量、质量、规律性和时机。

How do we know if we're getting enough sleep?

我们如何知道我们的睡眠是否充足？

And this is something that you say seven to nine hours.

这是你说的七到九个小时的事情。

I've heard, well, if you're feeling alert during the day but perhaps have just a little bit of that postprandial dip.

我听说，如果你在白天感到警觉，但可能只是餐后有一点警觉。

Did I get that right?

我做对了吗？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Then you're probably okay.

那么你可能就没事了。

But presumably, there are some other ways to gauge whether or not we're getting enough sleep or not

但大概还有其他一些方法来衡量我们是否有足够的睡眠

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

So there are certainly some ways that we do it in science and clinically, but let's let those go for a second and just say, for people listening, what are some very easy tests?

因此，我们在科学和临床上肯定有一些方法可以做到这一点，但让我们暂时先说一下，对于听众来说，有哪些非常简单的测试？

I think the first test that I would offer is if your alarm clock didn't go off tomorrow morning, would you sleep past your alarm clock?

我想我要提供的第一个测试是，如果你的闹钟明天早上没有响，你会睡过闹钟吗？

And if the answer is yes, which for many people it will be, then you're not getting enough sleep.

如果答案是肯定的（对于很多人来说都是这样），那么你就没有得到足够的睡眠。

No other species as well, by the way, artificially terminates their sleep.

顺便说一句，没有其他物种会人为地终止睡眠。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

It's so interesting.

太有趣了。

But we humans will do it.

但我们人类会做到。

We'll wrench ourselves out of sleep.

我们会把自己从睡梦中挣脱出来。

Now, I told you that regularity is key, and I do have an alarm clock.

现在，我告诉你规律性是关键，而且我确实有一个闹钟。

I usually wake up close to it or a little bit before it.

我通常会在它附近或在它之前一点醒来。

So I do advocate an alarm clock.

所以我确实提倡闹钟。

In fact, I would argue that you should have two alarm clocks.

事实上，我认为你应该有两个闹钟。

You should have a to bed alarm clock and a to wake alarm clock.

您应该有一个就寝闹钟和一个起床闹钟。

Most of us only use an alarm clock in the morning.

我们大多数人只在早上使用闹钟。

Why don't we have it to tell us when it's time to go to bed?

为什么我们没有它来告诉我们什么时候该睡觉了？

So I have both of those.

所以我两者都有。

So I would say that it's good to use to keep yourself regular.

所以我想说，用它来保持自己的规律是很好的。

But truly, if you would sleep past that alarm time, then you're not done with sleep, your body isn't done with sleep.

但事实上，如果你在闹钟时间过后就睡觉，那么你还没有睡完，你的身体还没有睡完。

And animals would never do that.

动物永远不会这样做。

And so I think that's the first metric.

所以我认为这是第一个指标。

Another metric, sometimes it's not that incredibly specific, but have you ever been driving day after day after day, and sometimes you think, "I don't know if that light was red or green that I just went through"?

另一个指标，有时并不是那么具体，但是您是否曾经日复一日地开车，有时您会想，“我不知道我刚刚经过的那个灯是红灯还是绿灯”？

Inattentiveness-

不专心——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm actually driving now.

我现在确实在开车。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Bite your tongue, Walker.

咬住你的舌头，沃克。

Bite your tongue.

咬你的舌头。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So that was you.

那就是你。

Okay.

好的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

May have been.

可能是。

That's one potential concern.

这是一个潜在的担忧。

In fact, one of the ways that we've developed a metric for dose response to sleep deprivation is using concentration and alertness tests.

事实上，我们开发睡眠剥夺剂量反应指标的方法之一是使用注意力和警觉性测试。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

So in other words, if there is a breathalyzer for a lack of sleep, doing these focus concentration tests is they are so sensitive, they're so predictive.

换句话说，如果有一个针对睡眠不足的呼气分析仪，那么做这些注意力集中测试就是它们非常敏感，它们非常具有预测性。

You get people just to focus on a screen and start to do very basic stimulus response, and they can do that for the first minute, two.

你让人们专注于屏幕并开始做非常基本的刺激反应，他们可以在第一分钟、两分钟内做到这一点。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

With stimulus response, for those that don't know, might be three letters pop up on a screen, and then you pick two keys.

对于刺激反应，对于那些不知道的人来说，屏幕上可能会弹出三个字母，然后你选择两个键。

You have access to two keys on the keyboard.

您可以使用键盘上的两个键。

If there are two letters that are similar, you press right key.

如果有两个字母相似，则按右键。

If there aren't two or more letters that are similar, you press left key.

如果没有两个或多个相似的字母，则按左键。

Simple things.

简单的事情。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah, very basic.

是的，非常基本。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But where you have to pay attention to a rule.

但在那里你必须注意一个规则。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

That's right.

没错。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And you're just doing a lot of different trials of different rules and-

你只是对不同的规则进行了很多不同的尝试，然后-

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

It just becomes monotonous.

它只是变得单调。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

It's not really very challenging.

这实际上并不是很有挑战性。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But you have to pay attention.

但你必须注意。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

It's just...

这只是...

So, and that perfectly mimics in some ways, but we don't do it for two or three minutes.

所以，这在某些方面完美地模仿了，但我们不会这样做两三分钟。

We'll have you do it for 10 minutes, and my goodness, is it mind-numbing.

我们会让你做 10 分钟，我的天哪，这会让人头脑麻木吗？

But it mimics very well.

但模仿得非常好。

Think about just even a one-hour road trip at 10:00 in the evening, and you're on the motorway, the freeway.

想象一下晚上 10:00 进行一小时的公路旅行，而您正行驶在高速公路上。

All you've got to do is just focus on the road, and the white lines are coming, and there's nothing much to do.

您所要做的就是专注于道路，白线即将到来，您无需做任何事情。

And you've got to attend and focus not for 10 minutes, but for 60 minutes.

你必须全神贯注，集中注意力，不是 10 分钟，而是 60 分钟。

When you are underslept, one of the dangers, the big problems with a lack of sleep, is that you don't know you are sleep-deprived when you are sleep-deprived.

当你睡眠不足时，睡眠不足的危险之一、最大的问题是，当你睡眠不足时，你并不知道自己睡眠不足。

And we know this because when I'm tracking your performance objectively, it's going down and down and down.

我们知道这一点，因为当我客观地跟踪你的表现时，你的表现会不断下降。

But when I'm asking you subjectively, "How do you think you're doing in terms of your performance?" You say, "Ah, I'm hanging in there.

但当我主观地问你“你认为你的表现怎么样？”你说：“啊，我坚持住。

So far, I'm good." So subjectively, you think you're fine, but objectively, you're not.

到目前为止，我很好。”所以主观上，你认为自己很好，但客观上，你却不好。

The analogy would be a drunk driver at a bar.

这个类比就是酒吧里的醉酒司机。

They've had seven or eight beers, they've had six shots, and they pick up the car keys, and they say to you, "Look, I'm fine to drive home." And your response is, "No, I know that you subjectively think you're fine to drive, but trust me, objectively, you're not.

他们喝了七八杯啤酒，喝了六杯酒，然后拿起车钥匙，对你说：“听着，我可以开车回家了。”你的回答是：“不，我知道你主观上认为你可以开车，但相信我，客观上，你不是。

I'll just call you a taxi.

我就给你叫一辆出租车。

Don't worry.

别担心。

It's fine." It's the same way with a lack of sleep.

没关系。”睡眠不足也是如此。

So I make this point about going through the traffic lights because you can have these lapses of attention, and these lapses of attention are caused by microsleeps.

所以我提出关于过红绿灯的观点是因为你可能会注意力不集中，而这些注意力不集中是由微睡眠引起的。

Microsleeps happen when the brain just very briefly, it's almost like one of those toy ducks that kind of dips its bill into the water and then sort of comes back up again and dips it.

当大脑非常短暂时就会发生微睡眠，它几乎就像一只玩具鸭子，将其喙浸入水中，然后再次浮起并浸入水中。

Your brain just drops down and has a quick sample of sleep, a microsleep, and we can measure it in your eyelid, that your eyelid starts to have what's called a partial closure, and it just kind of goes half the way over, or it closes fully shut.

你的大脑会下降并快速进行睡眠样本，即微睡眠，我们可以在你的眼睑中测量它，你的眼睑开始有所谓的部分闭合，它只是进行了一半，或者完全闭合。

That's a microsleep.

这就是微睡眠。

Even when it's half open, your brain is essentially offline.

即使它是半开的，你的大脑也基本上处于离线状态。

It's in a sleep-like state.

它处于一种类似睡眠的状态。

We can measure it, and then it comes back online.

我们可以测量它，然后它就会恢复在线状态。

So I bring that, that's a very long-winded way of saying that's the second metric I would use.

所以我提出，这是我要使用的第二个指标的一种非常冗长的说法。

Are you having these absences where you just kind of lapse?

你是否有过这样的缺勤，导致你有点失误？

Another is that you've mentioned it before, I just don't feel restored.

还有就是你之前也提到过，我就是感觉不太恢复。

You could say, "Look, I sleep for probably around about seven and three-quarter hours every night, but I don't feel awake.

你可以说：“看，我每晚大约睡七又四分之三小时，但我感觉不醒。

I don't feel refreshed." So can you operate without needing caffeine and have good grace, good mood, and good cognition without needing caffeine before 11:00 AM in the morning?

我不觉得神清气爽。”那么，在早上11:00之前，你是否可以在不需要咖啡因的情况下进行工作，并且在不需要咖啡因的情况下保持良好的风度、良好的心情和良好的认知呢？

And if the answer is no, you may be self-medicating your state of insufficient sleep.

如果答案是否定的，您可能正在对睡眠不足的状态进行自我治疗。

But that metric of saying, "I sleep seven hours and 45 minutes, that's what my sleep tracker says, but I don't feel refreshed," that comes to the second Q of QQRT Sufficient quantity of sleep, my guess is that I would then look at the quality of your sleep, and we'd probably find a deficiency in the quality of your sleep.

但是，“我睡了 7 小时 45 分钟，这是我的睡眠追踪器所说的，但我感觉不清醒”，这涉及 QQRT 的第二个 Q 足够的睡眠量，我的猜测是，然后我会查看您的睡眠质量，我们可能会发现您的睡眠质量存在缺陷。

So there are these different sort of-

所以有这些不同种类的-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

tools that you can use.

您可以使用的工具。

But a good one is, do you feel refreshed and restored by your sleep?

但好的一点是，您是否因睡眠而感到神清气爽、精力充沛？

It's not to guarantee any of these, but.

这并不是为了保证其中任何一个，但是。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In order to answer that question, do you feel refreshed and restored by your sleep, could we dig just a little bit into some of the contour of the day?

为了回答这个问题，你是否因睡眠而感到神清气爽、精神焕发，我们可以稍微深入了解一下一天的情况吗？

So, if I get a good night's sleep, which for me means going to sleep-

所以，如果我睡个好觉，这对我来说意味着去睡觉——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

early, waking up early-

早起，早起——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Which tonight we are absolutely

今晚我们绝对是

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's the plan.

这就是计划。

I wake up pretty quickly.

我很快就醒了。

I'm alert upon wake-up, maybe five, 10 minutes to get out of a semi-groggy state.

我一醒来就很警觉，大概需要五到十分钟才能摆脱半昏昏沉沉的状态。

But sometimes I'm just eyelids open, I'm ready to go.

但有时我只是睁开眼，我就准备好了。

Is the latency from wake-up time to full alertness, is that a relevant metric?

从醒来到完全警觉的延迟是一个相关的指标吗？

The other question is whether or not the postprandial dip is a relevant metric.

另一个问题是餐后下降是否是一个相关指标。

We established already that it's natural to feel a bit of an energetic dip at somewhere in the afternoon, I think you said between 1:00 and 4:00 PM.

我们已经确定，在下午的某个时间感到精力有些低落是很自然的，我想您是说在下午 1:00 到 4:00 之间。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

1:00 and 4:00 PM.

下午 1:00 和 4:00。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, something like that.

是的，类似的事情。

For me, that's true, between the hours of 2:00 and 3:00 PM.

对我来说，确实如此，即下午 2:00 到 3:00 之间。

Assuming all other things are equal, I just experience that no matter what.

假设所有其他条件都相同，无论如何我都会经历这一点。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But I could imagine some people are really dragging in the afternoon, and they would like to know, is that the normal postprandial dip, or is that a reflection of not getting adequate sleep?

但我可以想象有些人下午真的很累，他们想知道这是正常的餐后下降，还是睡眠不足的反映？

Is there any way that we could just dig into these two times of day as a measure of evaluating one's duration and quality of sleep a little bit more?

有没有什么方法可以让我们深入了解一天中的这两个时间，作为更多地评估一个人的睡眠持续时间和质量的指标？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Beautiful questions.

美丽的问题。

I would say that one should not take necessarily either of those two as your best metric.

我想说，人们不一定将这两者中的任何一个作为最佳衡量标准。

The reason is the wake-up component, for some people like you, you're waking up and you are good to go pretty much out the gate.

原因在于唤醒部分，对于像您这样的人来说，您正在醒来，并且可以很好地走出大门。

Many people, however, will experience something called sleep inertia, which is this...

然而，很多人都会经历一种叫做睡眠惯性的现象，这就是……

It's almost this just period of time, a little bit like a sleep hangover the first hour.

差不多就是这么一段时间，有点像头一个小时的宿醉。

I'm going to have to come back to a car analogy.

我将不得不回到汽车的类比。

It's like a classic car engine, where you don't just pull out and you can rev it and it's...

它就像一个经典的汽车发动机，你不只是把它拉出来，你还可以加速它，它......

You need to warm it up gradually, bring the oil temps up.

您需要逐渐加热，提高油温。

And at that point, after about an hour, you're up to operating temperature, and you're good to go.

大约一个小时后，您就达到了工作温度，就可以开始了。

It's that sense of, okay, I walk through into the kitchen, and your partner maybe looks at the dishes, and I say, "I know, darling.

就是那种感觉，好吧，我走进厨房，你的伴侣可能会看着盘子，我说，“我知道，亲爱的。

I know I said I was going to wash the dishes.

我知道我说过我要去洗碗。

I'm so sorry, I forgot.

非常抱歉，我忘记了。

But can I just have my cup of coffee, and I'll be the very best version of myself in about an hour?

但我可以喝杯咖啡吗，大约一个小时后我就能成为最好的自己了？

Can we discuss it then?

那我们可以讨论一下吗？

Because right now, I'm not the best version of myself." That's sleep inertia, and that is natural for many people.

因为现在的我还不是最好的自己。”这就是睡眠惯性，这对许多人来说是很自然的。

Now, if you are an evening type and you're waking up early, you're going to have a much heavier sleep inertia period than you would do that is natural to you.

现在，如果你是晚睡型的人，而且你起得很早，那么你的睡眠惯性期将会比你自然的情况要严重得多。

But I wouldn't necessarily use that as the direct measure, because many people will have sleep inertia, and if you do, you may get worried if I say, "Oh, it's the very best measure that you're not getting quality of sleep." The postprandial dip, as you mentioned there before, even you, the monumental organism called Andrew Huberman, even you can fall prey to that and do fall prey to that.

但我不一定会用它作为直接衡量标准，因为很多人都会有睡眠惯性，如果你这样做，你可能会担心，如果我说，“哦，这是你没有获得睡眠质量的最好衡量标准。”餐后下降，正如你之前提到的，即使是你，这个叫安德鲁·胡伯曼的巨大有机体，即使你也可能成为它的牺牲品，并且确实成为它的牺牲品。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Every day.

每天。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

So that's perfectly natural.

所以这是很自然的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I've actually learned to love it.

我实际上已经学会了去爱它。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Hmm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I just love it.

我就是喜欢它。

Here it comes and I go, "Okay, that's my circadian rhythm." And we'll talk more about circadian rhythm in a few minutes.

它来了，我走了，“好吧，这就是我的昼夜节律。”几分钟后我们将详细讨论昼夜节律。

And if I can get 10 to 15 minutes of shut-eye time in that postprandial dip, then I really love it.

如果我能在餐后休息时获得 10 到 15 分钟的闭眼时间，那么我真的很喜欢它。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And you, yep.

还有你，是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I bounce right out of that.

我马上就跳出来了。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And we'll speak about how we were designed to sleep maybe in a later episode, too, and whether that should be the way human beings are sleeping.

我们也许会在稍后的剧集中讨论我们是如何被设计成睡眠的，以及这是否应该是人类的睡眠方式。

So I wouldn't necessarily use that, "I always have this postprandial dip.

所以我不一定会用这个，“我总是有这种餐后酒。

Does that mean I should be worried about sleep?" I would say that if you have excessive daytime sleepiness throughout the day, where you're constantly tired, and that is a term that we use in sleep medicine, is excessive daytime sleepiness, or EDS.

这是否意味着我应该担心睡眠？”我想说，如果您整天白天过度嗜睡，并且不断感到疲倦，这是我们在睡眠医学中使用的一个术语，那就是白天过度嗜睡，或 EDS。

That should be of a concern.

这应该是一个值得关注的问题。

I would use a slightly different metric of the same question, but at a different time of day.

我会在一天中的不同时间对同一问题使用略有不同的指标。

Let's think about that circadian rhythm again.

让我们再次考虑一下昼夜节律。

For most people, even if you're a morning type or evening type, by about 11:00 AM, midday, you're really starting to get to your peak.

对于大多数人来说，无论您是早起型还是晚上型，到中午 11:00 左右，您就真正开始达到巅峰状态。

Most people are somewhere either side of the peak or around that peak.

大多数人都在山峰两侧或山峰周围的某个地方。

I would say that if you are feeling groggy and not alert and awake at 11:00, 11:30, depending on your chronotype, I would use that as probably the better metric of my daytime sleepiness.

我想说，如果您在 11:00、11:30 感到昏昏沉沉、不警觉和清醒，根据您的生物钟类型，我会用它作为衡量我白天困倦的更好指标。

And by the way, it's very interesting about that peak.

顺便说一下，那个峰值非常有趣。

If you look at that circadian peak when you're at your optimal, it's both your optimal for your brain, but it's also for your body.

如果您观察处于最佳状态时的昼夜节律峰值，那么这不仅对您的大脑而言是最佳的，而且对您的身体也是如此。

It's the point at which your core body temperature starts to peak.

这是您的核心体温开始达到峰值的点。

That's the moment where you have optimal physiology, and when you look at world records that have been broken in the Olympics, and you plot them on the basis of time of day, you see this incredible, beautiful spike where most people are breaking world records right in that circadian sweet spot around that midday period.

那是你拥有最佳生理机能的时刻，当你查看奥运会上打破的世界纪录，并根据一天中的时间将它们绘制出来时，你会看到这个令人难以置信的美丽峰值，大多数人都在中午的昼夜节律最佳时间打破世界纪录。

Why?

为什么？

It's because that's the period where human physiology seems to be at its optimal thermal temperature, at least.

这是因为，至少在这个时期，人类的生理机能似乎处于最佳的热温度。

And it's fascinating.

这很有趣。

But interesting-

但有趣的是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right around sometime between 11:00 AM and 1:00-

大约上午 11:00 到凌晨 1:00 之间的某个时间-

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Sort of 1:00-

大概是 1:00-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

1:00 PM

下午 1:00

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

PM.

下午。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Depending on what time somebody goes to sleep and wakes up.

取决于某人入睡和起床的时间。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Correct, yeah.

正确，是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And what time their chronotype is, and that will vary.

他们的生物钟是什么时间，这会有所不同。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

But on average-

但平均而言——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's right

没错

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

that's the way you will see it.

这就是你看到的方式。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, because for me, it would be my peak alertness and physical ability work output-

是的，因为对我来说，这将是我的最高警觉性和身体能力的工作输出——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

is somewhere between 10:00 AM and noon.

是上午 10:00 到中午之间的某个时间。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And that fits both with your brain, and my guess is that if we were to get you into the gym and have you go through your routine and see if we could do that routine once we've got a basal set of metrics, I will have you do it at 7:00 AM, then have you do it at 9:00 AM, then do it at midday, then 3:00 PM, then 6:00 PM, and then 10:00 PM.

这都适合你的大脑，我的猜测是，如果我们让你去健身房，让你完成你的例行公事，看看一旦我们有了一组基本指标，我们是否可以执行该例行程序，我会让你在上午 7:00 做，然后让你在上午 9:00 做，然后在中午做，然后是下午 3:00，然后是下午 6:00，然后是晚上 10:00。

Same workout, same human being, but there will be definitive periods of time in the day when you are optimal.

同样的锻炼，同样的人，但一天中会有明确的时间段让你处于最佳状态。

And my guess is that that optimality of brain is matched by optimality of body, such that your peak performance output, and let's say your peak jump height or your peak muscle strength, would be right around those time periods that fit with your own circadian chronotype rhythmicity.

我的猜测是，大脑的最佳性与身体的最佳性相匹配，这样你的峰值表现输出，比如说你的峰值跳跃高度或你的峰值肌肉力量，将恰好在适合你自己的昼夜节律的时间段附近。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So you've been talking about this 24-hour oscillation in sleep-wake activity called the circadian rhythm.

您一直在谈论睡眠-觉醒活动的 24 小时振荡，称为昼夜节律。

Maybe we can drill a little bit deeper into the circadian rhythm.

也许我们可以更深入地研究昼夜节律。

What is it?

它是什么？

What can shift it, if it indeed can shift?

如果它确实可以改变的话，什么可以改变它呢？

And I'm especially curious about forces other than the circadian rhythm that have an impact on sleepiness, sleep, and wakefulness.

我特别好奇除了昼夜节律之外还有哪些因素会影响困倦、睡眠和清醒。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

So the way we think about it in sleep science, and there is some argument that it's maybe even more complex than this, but for the most part, there are two main forces, two main processes that will determine when you want to be awake and when you want to be asleep.

因此，我们在睡眠科学中思考它的方式，有人认为它可能比这更复杂，但在大多数情况下，有两个主要力量，两个主要过程将决定您何时想要醒来和何时想要入睡。

The first of those we've spoken about, which is your circadian rhythm.

我们谈到的第一个就是你的昼夜节律。

And that circadian rhythm is you have a clock inside of your brain.

昼夜节律就是你大脑里有一个时钟。

You have a central 24-hour clock, and it's a master clock.

你有一个中央 24 小时时钟，它是一个主时钟。

And that clock, as you've spoken about many times, is called the suprachiasmatic nucleus.

正如您多次提到的，那个时钟被称为视交叉上核。

We don't have to get hung up on the statement.

我们不必拘泥于声明。

Just think about it as your master 24-hour clock.

只需将其视为您的主 24 小时时钟即可。

And it beats out this rhythmic sort of message of activity for us, because we're diurnal, during the day, and then inactivity at night, activity during the day, and it just goes up and down, up and down every single day.

它为我们提供了这种有节奏的活动信息，因为我们是白天活动的，然后晚上不活动，白天活动，而且它每天都在上下波动。

That's your circadian rhythm, and that's the suprachiasmatic.

这就是你的昼夜节律，这就是视交叉上。

The reason I say it's the master clock, we've now learned that there are these circadian rhythm clocks in almost all cells of the body.

我之所以说它是主时钟，是因为我们现在了解到，身体的几乎所有细胞中都存在这些昼夜节律时钟。

You've got clocks all over your body.

你的全身都有时钟。

They're tiny little clocks.

它们是很小的小钟。

But a little bit like "Lord of the Rings," just like there's one ring to rule them all, well, there's one clock to rule them all, and that is the central brain clock, the suprachiasmatic nucleus.

但有点像《指环王》，就像有一个环来统治它们，嗯，有一个时钟来统治它们，那就是中央大脑时钟，即视交叉上核。

Now, you can dissociate those different clocks, and you can get them kind of doing some funky things.

现在，您可以分离这些不同的时钟，并且可以让它们做一些时髦的事情。

But for the most part, it's the central time giver.

但在大多数情况下，它是主要的时间给予者。

So you would think that, well, that's all you need to tell your brain and your body it's time to sleep or it's time to be awake.

所以你会认为，这就是你需要告诉你的大脑和你的身体是时候睡觉了或者是时候醒来了。

It's not.

它不是。

There is a second force in place here, and it is called, we sometimes call it as process S or sleep pressure.

这里还有第二种力量，我们有时称之为进程 S 或睡眠压力。

So you've got your circadian rhythm on the one hand going up and down every 24 hours, but then you've got this funny thing called sleep pressure.

因此，一方面，您的昼夜节律每 24 小时就会上下波动，但另一方面，您也会遇到一种有趣的现象，称为睡眠压力。

Sleep pressure comes down to a chemical that is called adenosine.

睡眠压力归结为一种叫做腺苷的化学物质。

So from the moment that you and I woke up this morning, and everyone listening, a chemical has been building up in your brain.

因此，从你我今天早上醒来，每个人都在听的那一刻起，一种化学物质就在你的大脑中积聚起来。

That chemical is called adenosine.

这种化学物质叫做腺苷。

And the more of it that builds up, the sleepier you will feel.

积累得越多，你就会感到越困。

And after about 16 or so hours of being awake, there is enough of that sleepiness chemical, that adenosine, sleep pressure.

清醒大约 16 小时后，就会产生足够的催眠化学物质，即腺苷，即睡眠压力。

And by the way, it is a chemical pressure.

顺便说一句，这是化学压力。

It's not a mechanical pressure.

这不是机械压力。

You don't have to worry that your head's going to explode if you go longer than 16 hours awake.

如果您醒着的时间超过 16 小时，您不必担心您的头会爆炸。

But that sleep pressure is going to start weighing down on your shoulders, and you can sense that feeling where you start to think you're watching television, you're starting to go down the hill, and you think, "I should go to bed.

但是睡眠压力将开始压在你的肩膀上，你可以感觉到那种感觉，你开始认为你在看电视，你开始下山，你会想，“我应该去睡觉了。

I'm tired now." That's because of one of two things is happening.

我现在累了。”这是因为发生了两件事之一。

Firstly, you're getting to that peak crescendo of adenosine, where it's just getting so powerful that it's knocking you over and you're ready for sleep.

首先，你的腺苷达到了峰值，它变得如此强大，以至于把你击倒，你准备睡觉了。

Usually, when you are in synchrony with all of your biology, these two forces, your circadian rhythm that goes up and down every 24 hours, and your sleep pressure align in this beautiful sort of Fred Astaire, Ginger Rogers dance partnership, and they're in harmony.

通常，当你与你的所有生物体同步时，这两种力量、你每 24 小时上下波动的昼夜节律以及你的睡眠压力就会在 Fred Astaire、Ginger Rogers 的舞蹈搭档中协调一致，并且它们是和谐的。

The strange thing is that they know nothing about each other, and they don't care about each other.

奇怪的是，他们对彼此一无所知，也不关心对方。

One does not influence the other.

一者不影响另一者。

They are completely two independent things.

它们是完全独立的两个东西。

But let me run it out in the normal circumstance, and then I'll describe to you a good example of how I can separate those two and show you that they're truly independent.

但让我在正常情况下运行它，然后我将向您描述一个很好的例子，说明如何将这两者分开并向您展示它们是真正独立的。

So normally, when we're in a sort of stable rhythm of sleep-wake activity, we're awake during the day.

因此，通常情况下，当我们处于某种稳定的睡眠-觉醒活动节奏时，我们就会在白天醒来。

We've got this awesome upswing of our circadian rhythm.

我们的昼夜节律有了惊人的上升。

And then in the evening, let's just take you for example.

然后晚上，我们就以你为例。

As you're getting into that sort of 8:00, 9:00 PM region, your circadian rhythm has finished its peak many hours ago, and it's now starting to descend down, and you're getting onto the steep phase of its downward sort of stroke of its awesome downward movement.

当你进入晚上 8:00、9:00 的区域时，你的昼夜节律在几个小时前就已经达到顶峰，现在开始下降，你正进入其可怕的下降运动的陡峭阶段。

But also, don't forget that at that moment, your sleep pressure, your adenosine, is also now at its peak.

但也不要忘记，在那一刻，你的睡眠压力，你的腺苷，现在也达到了峰值。

You've been awake for now almost 16 hours.

你已经醒了将近 16 个小时了。

So the moment when your circadian rhythm is on its nice downward swing and your highest In your levels of adenosine, in your sleep pressure, that's the moment truly that will determine, okay, now is when I feel nice and sleepy.

因此，当你的昼夜节律处于良好的向下摆动状态并且你的腺苷水平和睡眠压力达到最高点时，那才是真正决定的时刻，好吧，现在就是我感觉良好和困倦的时候。

So then what happens?

那么接下来会发生什么呢？

Then you go to sleep.

然后你就去睡觉了。

You come down that curve of your circadian rhythm, and you kind of hit its nadir, its lowest point, in the middle of your sleep phase.

当你沿着昼夜节律的曲线下降时，你会在睡眠阶段的中间达到最低点。

But also when you go to sleep, that second factor of sleep pressure, your brain gets the chance to clear away that adenosine.

而且当你入睡时，睡眠压力的第二个因素，你的大脑有机会清除腺苷。

And it seems to be about a seven to nine-hour period of sleep is enough time for your brain to jettison all of that adenosine that has been building up across the 16 hours of prior wakefulness.

大约 7 到 9 小时的睡眠时间似乎足以让您的大脑抛弃在之前清醒的 16 小时内积累的所有腺苷。

And then these two things align beautifully again.

然后这两件事再次完美地结合在一起。

When it comes to your natural wake-up time, you've been asleep for, let's say, seven and a half hours.

就您的自然醒来时间而言，您已经睡了，比如说，七个半小时。

You've cleared out all of that adenosine, so you no longer have the weight of that sleepiness pushing you down.

你已经清除了所有的腺苷，所以你不再有困倦的重量压垮你。

But also, your circadian rhythm is now on its awesome upswing.

而且，您的昼夜节律现在正处于惊人的上升阶段。

And when those two things align, when you've dissipated and jettisoned all of that sleep pressure and your circadian rhythm is starting to rise, now that's the time when you would naturally wake up.

当这两件事一致时，当您消散并抛弃所有睡眠压力并且您的昼夜节律开始上升时，现在就是您自然醒来的时间。

So that's things when they are working well and in alignment.

这就是当它们工作良好且协调一致时的事情。

Let's say that I now take you, and I'm going to deprive you of sleep for 24 hours.

假设我现在带你去，我要剥夺你24小时的睡眠。

So now coming into sort of 10:00 PM, your circadian rhythm is dropping down, and your adenosine is starting to get high.

现在进入晚上 10:00，您的昼夜节律开始下降，而您的腺苷开始升高。

And by about 2:00 AM, you're probably not going to be happy.

到凌晨 2:00 左右，您可能会不高兴。

By about 4:00 AM or 5:00 AM, you're miserable.

到凌晨 4:00 或 5:00 左右，您就会感到痛苦。

Why?

为什么？

Because you've now been awake, let's say, for almost 20 hours straight, so you've got all of this excess sleepiness, adenosine, pushing you down, screaming at you.

因为你现在已经醒了，比如说，连续近 20 个小时，所以你有所有这些过度的困倦，腺苷，把你推倒，对你尖叫。

You've been awake for 20 hours.

你已经有 20 个小时没有睡觉了。

And your circadian rhythm is at its lowest point, desperately wanting to pull you into this thing called sleep, and you feel terrible.

而你的昼夜节律正处于最低点，拼命想把你拉入这种叫做睡眠的状态，而你感觉很糟糕。

But then something strange happens.

但随后发生了一些奇怪的事情。

By 11:00 in the morning, relative to, let's say, 4:00, you've now been awake for many more hours still, so you've built up even more adenosine.

到早上 11:00，相对于 4:00，您已经清醒了很多个小时，因此您体内积累了更多的腺苷。

So the prediction would be that if it's just adenosine alone that makes the difference, you should feel even worse at 11:00 AM.

因此，我们可以预测，如果仅靠腺苷产生影响，那么您在上午 11:00 时的感觉应该会更糟。

You don't.

你不知道。

You feel better despite being awake for longer.

尽管醒的时间更长，但您感觉好多了。

Why?

为什么？

Because your circadian rhythm has come to the rescue, and it's now starting its upswing, and it lessens the distance between those two, and you feel a little bit more alert.

因为你的昼夜节律已经开始发挥作用，它现在开始上升，它缩小了两者之间的距离，你会感觉更加警觉。

But then, as I push through later into the day, by about 6:00 PM, 7:00 PM, you're now on your circadian downswing once again, and you've been awake for even longer, and at that point, there's almost nothing that can keep you awake.

但是，当我熬到当天晚些时候，大约下午 6:00、晚上 7:00 时，您的昼夜节律又开始下降，而且您醒着的时间更长，到了那时，几乎没有什么能让您保持清醒。

You're going to be falling asleep on your feet, and you're toast.

你会站起来睡着的，然后你就完蛋了。

But that's a nice demonstration of how you can separate those two, and despite one continuing on, you can start to feel better because the other has come to your rescue.

但这很好地展示了如何将这两者分开，尽管其中一个继续存在，但你可以开始感觉好一些，因为另一个已经来拯救你了。

And that shows me that your circadian rhythm doesn't care about how much adenosine is in your brain.

这表明你的昼夜节律并不关心你大脑中有多少腺苷。

It's just going to keep going up and down, up and down every 24 hours.

它只会持续上下，每 24 小时上下一次。

And your adenosine level doesn't really care much about your circadian rhythm.

而且你的腺苷水平并不真正关心你的昼夜节律。

It's going to just build and build and build the longer and longer that you're awake and then get dissipated whenever it is that you sleep.

当你醒着的时候，它会越来越长，然后每当你睡觉的时候就会消散。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The clearance of adenosine, I'm curious about it.

腺苷的清除，我很好奇。

How does that work?

这是如何运作的？

So this chemical adenosine is building up in our brain.

所以这种化学物质腺苷正在我们的大脑中积聚。

Does it also build up in the body?

它也会在体内积聚吗？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

It does, but in the brain, it has this very interesting influence.

确实如此，但在大脑中，它具有非常有趣的影响。

Now, I've described it as making you sleepier, and it does.

现在，我将其描述为让你更困，而且确实如此。

That's exactly what it does, but it does it in a very interesting way.

这正是它所做的，但它以一种非常有趣的方式做到这一点。

It's a bidirectional way.

这是一种双向方式。

There are at least two different adenosine receptors or adenosine welcome sites within the brain.

大脑内至少有两种不同的腺苷受体或腺苷欢迎位点。

And adenosine is very clever in how it makes you sleepy.

腺苷非常聪明地让你昏昏欲睡。

Adenosine, as it's rising, will turn down the volume on the wake-promoting regions of your brain, but yet it will increase the volume on your sleep-promoting regions.

随着腺苷的增加，它会降低大脑中促醒区域的音量，但同时会增加促进睡眠区域的音量。

And by way of this dual action, that's how it seems to instigate this feeling of sleepiness, by tamping, putting the brakes on wakefulness, but hitting the accelerator pedal on sleepiness.

通过这种双重作用，它似乎就是如何煽动这种困倦感的，通过踩踏，在清醒时踩刹车，但在困倦时踩油门踏板。

But then adenosine seems to be part, or one of the reasons that it builds up is because it's a metabolic byproduct of cellular activity, of cellular metabolism.

但腺苷似乎是它的一部分，或者说它积聚的原因之一是因为它是细胞活动、细胞代谢的代谢副产品。

And it seems to be that the longer that we're awake, because our brain is very cerebrally active during the day, even though I told you that the brain state of sleep is very active, it is.

我们醒着的时间似乎越长，因为我们的大脑在白天的大脑活动非常活跃，尽管我告诉过你睡眠时的大脑状态非常活跃，事实确实如此。

It's a very metabolically active state of sleep.

这是一种新陈代谢非常活跃的睡眠状态。

It is less metabolically active, however, during deep non-REM sleep.

然而，在深度非快速眼动睡眠期间，它的代谢活性较低。

And it seems to be that it's deep non-REM sleep that is the principal time when we get the chance to clear away adenosine.

深度非快速眼动睡眠似乎是我们有机会清除腺苷的主要时间。

Now, adenosine clearance is happening all of the time.

现在，腺苷清除一直在发生。

It's just that the rate of accumulation when we're awake exceeds the speed with which we can naturally clear.

只是我们清醒时积累的速度超过了我们自然清理的速度。

But when our brain goes into deep non-REM sleep and becomes less metabolically active, it's not as though there's necessarily a more active or a very proactive state of deep sleep doing that cleansing.

但是，当我们的大脑进入深度非快速眼动睡眠并且代谢活性降低时，并不一定需要更活跃或非常主动的深度睡眠状态来进行这种清理。

It's not.

它不是。

It's the same process of adenosine clearance.

这与腺苷清除过程相同。

It's just that there is no longer the accumulation that's happening, so it gets the chance to catch up on the day's adenosine accumulation and then reduce down that adenosine debt and then get you to net neutral by the morning.

只是不再发生积累，所以它有机会赶上当天的腺苷积累，然后减少腺苷债务，然后在早上让你达到净中性。

And in fact, the amount of deep sleep, the quality of that deep sleep that you're getting, specifically the electrical quality of your deep sleep, is a very good predictor of how well you dissipate that sleepiness.

事实上，深度睡眠的量、深度睡眠的质量，特别是深度睡眠的电质量，可以很好地预测您消除困意的程度。

Again, it's not as though there's something special about non-REM sleep that is proactively doing the cleansing faster than happens when we're awake.

再说一次，非快速眼动睡眠并不是有什么特别之处，它比我们清醒时更快地主动进行清理。

It's just that the rate of accumulation when we're awake is greater than the exceeding and exceeds the capacity of the clearance, so it builds up.

只是我们醒着的时候积累的速度大于超出的速度，超出了清理的能力，所以就积累起来了。

When we go into non-REM, less metabolically active, now the clearance exceeds the buildup, and you're able to cleanse that debt.

当我们进入非快速眼动睡眠时，代谢活性较低，现在清除超过了积累，你就能够清除债务。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I have two more questions.

我还有两个问题。

The first is about growth hormone.

第一个是关于生长激素。

So I was taught that growth hormone is released primarily in sleep, although there are some daytime activities that can promote the release of growth hormone as well, certain forms of exercise, maybe some thermal stimuli, et cetera, but that the major event of growth hormone release occurs in sleep.

所以我被告知生长激素主要在睡眠中释放，虽然有些白天的活动也可以促进生长激素的释放，某些形式的运动，也许一些热刺激等等，但生长激素释放的主要事件发生在睡眠中。

Is that true?

这是真的吗？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

It is, although there is some argument that it is-- Is it sleep dependent, or is it simply sleep coinciding?

确实如此，尽管有一些争论——它是依赖于睡眠的，还是只是与睡眠同时发生？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Meaning that is it the time of day, so is it a circadian process where it's just nighttime-ness means that you release growth hormone, or is it nighttime plus sleep that is needed?

这意味着这是一天中的时间，所以这是一个昼夜节律过程，其中只是夜间意味着您释放生长激素，还是需要夜间加睡眠？

And it seems to be a mixture of both, but it seems to be more sleep dependent than it is nighttime dependent and sleep independent.

它似乎是两者的混合体，但它似乎更多地依赖于睡眠，而不是夜间依赖和睡眠独立。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I probably should've said before, growth hormone, critically important for growth of children during development, but also for tissue repair and metabolism throughout the lifespan.

我之前可能应该说过，生长激素对于儿童发育过程中的生长至关重要，而且对于整个生命周期的组织修复和新陈代谢也至关重要。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Throughout the lifespan.

整个生命周期。

When we're adults, we critically need it.

当我们成年后，我们迫切需要它。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

So if I understand correctly, when one goes to sleep, growth hormone is released, but that there's a circadian component as well, so it's a bit of an and gate, as they say-

所以如果我理解正确的话，当一个人入睡时，生长激素会被释放，但也有昼夜节律的成分，所以这有点像“与门”，正如他们所说的-

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Correct

正确

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

which is that you need this and that in order to get growth hormone release.

也就是说，你需要这个和那个才能释放生长激素。

And the reason I ask this, and I'm going to frame it this way because I think it's going to both clarify what you said and also lead to a practical step, which is about sleep regularity and timing.

我之所以问这个问题，我会这样表述，因为我认为这既能澄清你所说的内容，又能带来一个实际的步骤，即睡眠规律和时间安排。

I've heard that the growth hormone surge is greatest at the beginning of the night of sleep, and that if we go to sleep a few hours later than usual, we miss the opportunity to experience the same level of growth hormone release, even if we sleep the same total number of hours.

我听说生长激素的激增在夜间睡眠开始时最为强烈，如果我们比平常晚几个小时入睡，我们就会错过体验相同水平的生长激素释放的机会，即使我们的睡眠总小时数相同。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So yet more incentive for regular sleep timing.

因此，对规律的睡眠时间有更多的激励。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yes.

是的。

So you're right, it's an and gate.

所以你是对的，这是一个与门。

So nighttime-ness does help, but sleep helps perhaps significantly more, meaning that I can have you experience the nighttime, but I can deprive you of sleep and selectively of deep non-REM sleep, and I can markedly impair your growth hormone release.

因此，夜间确实有帮助，但睡眠的帮助可能更大，这意味着我可以让你体验夜间，但我可以剥夺你的睡眠和选择性的深度非快速眼动睡眠，而且我可以显着损害你的生长激素释放。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Put differently, I think, tell me if this is correct.

换句话说，我想，请告诉我这是否正确。

Put differently, if somebody has to work the night shift and they sleep during the day, they'll still get a growth hormone release-

换句话说，如果有人必须上夜班并且白天睡觉，他们仍然会释放生长激素-

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

So that's-

所以那就是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

but not as much growth hormone release were they to have slept at night.

但如果他们晚上睡觉的话，生长激素的释放量就不会那么多。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Correct.

正确。

So we can do it one of two ways.

所以我们可以通过两种方式之一来实现。

So my way is to say, I keep you on a diurnal nocturnal sort of schedule where you're awake during the day and you're asleep at night, but I'm going to selectively deprive you of just your deep sleep at night.

所以我的方式是说，我让你遵循昼夜时间表，白天醒着，晚上睡着，但我会选择性地剥夺你晚上的深度睡眠。

So you're still sleeping, and you're still spending the nighttime-ness in bed, which is not the shift work version, but I can block or not block, I can significantly reduce your growth hormone because I selectively deprived you of sleep.

所以你还在睡觉，你仍然在床上度过夜晚，这不是轮班工作版本，但我可以阻止或不阻止，我可以显着减少你的生长激素，因为我选择性地剥夺了你的睡眠。

Or I can do the opposite, which is the shift work approach, which is I'm not going to deprive you of sleep.

或者我可以采取相反的做法，即轮班工作方式，即我不会剥夺你的睡眠。

You're going to sleep during the day.

白天你要睡觉。

But now I have held sleep constant.

但现在我已经保持睡眠不变。

So in my version, I have held nighttime-ness constant and I've manipulated sleep.

所以在我的版本中，我保持了夜间状态不变，并且控制了睡眠。

In your version, the shift worker, we've done the opposite.

在你的版本中，轮班工人，我们做了相反的事情。

We've held sleep constant, they're sleeping during the day, but we've manipulated nighttime-ness.

我们保持睡眠不变，他们在白天睡觉，但我们控制了夜间的睡眠。

And now, as you said, yes, they will release some growth hormone, even though that's not the natural time on the 24-hour clock when we would see growth hormone released.

现在，正如您所说，是的，它们会释放一些生长激素，尽管这不是 24 小时制中我们看到生长激素释放的自然时间。

Why?

为什么？

Because they are getting sleep, because it's a somewhat sleep-dependent process.

因为他们正在睡觉，因为这是一个某种程度上依赖于睡眠的过程。

But they're not going to necessarily release as much, in part because they're not experiencing sleep at nighttime phases.

但它们不一定会释放那么多，部分原因是它们在夜间阶段没有睡眠。

So you can elegantly separate those two out, and that's why it's not quite one or the other, but it seems to be both.

所以你可以优雅地将这两者分开，这就是为什么它不完全是其中之一，但似乎两者都是。

Certainly, it's sleep sensitive.

当然，它对睡眠很敏感。

I would say sleep sensitive is a very good way of describing it.

我想说睡眠敏感是描述它的一个很好的方式。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay, so translated to actionable protocol, everyone should strive to get sleep ideally at night of sufficient quality and quantity, which you already discussed, and getting sufficient amounts of deep sleep is going to be especially important for sake of growth hormone release.

好的，所以转化为可操作的方案，每个人都应该努力在晚上获得足够质量和数量的理想睡眠，正如您已经讨论过的，并且获得足够的深度睡眠对于生长激素的释放尤其重要。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Correct.

正确。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Got it.

明白了。

My last question has to do with the other end of the sleep cycle, which is toward morning and waking, which is the hormone cortisol.

我的最后一个问题与睡眠周期的另一端有关，即早晨和醒来时的皮质醇激素。

We hear so often these days about cortisol, and people often frame it as bad.

如今，我们经常听到有关皮质醇的说法，人们常常认为它是不好的。

"Cortisol is bad."

“皮质醇不好。”

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You hear this.

你听到这个。

That is simply not true.

这根本不是真的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Remove cortisol from an organism, they will not do well.

从有机体中除去皮质醇，它们就不会表现得很好。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

And-

还有——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

It's critical

这很关键

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

we need cortisol for immune system function, for waking, for certain forms of memory formation.

我们需要皮质醇来维持免疫系统功能、清醒以及某些形式的记忆形成。

Although too much cortisol is a bad thing indeed, not enough cortisol is an equally bad thing indeed.

虽然皮质醇过多确实是一件坏事，但皮质醇不足确实同样是一件坏事。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So what is the relationship between cortisol and emerging from sleep?

那么皮质醇和从睡眠中醒来之间有什么关系呢？

And put differently, what is the relationship between deep sleep and cortisol?

换句话说，深度睡眠和皮质醇之间有什么关系？

Meaning, is sleep one way that we keep cortisol at bay during stages of the 24-hour cycle when it would be deleterious to have elevated cortisol?

意思是，在 24 小时周期的各个阶段，睡眠是否是我们抑制皮质醇的一种方式，而皮质醇升高是有害的？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yes, it is.

是的，确实如此。

I spoke about, and we'll come onto this perhaps when we speak about emotional and mental health, and when we are underslept, we shift over into a more sort of activated, sympathetic, agitated state of our nervous system.

我谈到过，也许当我们谈论情感和心理健康时，我们会谈到这一点，当我们睡眠不足时，我们的神经系统就会转入一种更加活跃、交感神经、焦躁的状态。

That's one aspect of it, but there's another aspect of the stress response, which is, yes, you get elevated heart rate, you're more sympathetic, which is this activated state rather than parasympathetic.

这是一方面，但压力反应还有另一方面，就是，是的，你的心率会升高，你的交感神经会更强，这是一种激活状态，而不是副交感神经。

But you also get, when you're sleep deprived, a greater release of the stress hormonal axis, which is called the HPA axis, which if you really want to go into detail, it's the hypothalamic pituitary adrenal axis, which is a fancy way of saying that it's a signal from your brain going down to release cortisol.

但当你睡眠不足时，压力荷尔蒙轴（称为 HPA 轴）也会得到更大程度的释放，如果你真的想详细了解的话，它是下丘脑垂体肾上腺轴，这是一种奇特的说法，它是大脑发出的释放皮质醇的信号。

So when you go into deep sleep, not only do you shift over into the nice, quiet, rested, quiescent state of the nervous system, but you also get a dissipation in that stress-related axis and the release of cortisol.

因此，当你进入深度睡眠时，你不仅会进入神经系统良好、安静、休息、静止的状态，而且与压力相关的轴也会消散并释放皮质醇。

Cortisol, however, seems to be also under the strict control of your circadian rhythm, where it drops down at night.

然而，皮质醇似乎也受到昼夜节律的严格控制，在夜间会下降。

And in fact, you have one of the steepest declines right at the moment when you're starting to get sleepy, too, almost as though your brain and your body know we can't have cortisol, even at sort of normative levels that you would have during the day, because otherwise this person is just going to still be a little bit too wired.

事实上，当你开始犯困的那一刻，你的皮质醇下降幅度最大，就好像你的大脑和你的身体知道我们不能拥有皮质醇，即使是在白天的正常水平，因为否则这个人仍然会有点过于兴奋。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

This is the problem with a stressful event after, say, 8:00 p.m.

这是晚上 8:00 之后发生的压力事件所带来的问题。

at night.

晚上。

If you see something stressful, experience something stressful, if it's stressful enough, will spike your cortisol at that late hour-

如果你看到一些有压力的事情，经历一些有压力的事情，如果压力足够大，那么你的皮质醇就会在那个时候激增——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

can really impede your entire sleep structure.

确实会阻碍您的整个睡眠结构。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

I would say it's one of the things that I would advocate in terms of a good sleep-optimized routine, and we can come onto that.

我想说，这是我提倡的良好睡眠优化习惯之一，我们可以着手解决这一问题。

Also, if you-

另外，如果你——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And avoiding stress and arguments and disturbing news and things like that as much as is possible-

并尽可能避免压力、争论、令人不安的新闻和类似的事情——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

in the late evening and early night hours.

在深夜和凌晨时分。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Even if you don't think you're necessarily someone who's sensitive to that.

即使您认为自己不一定是对此敏感的人。

Now it turns out I am someone who is sensitive to that.

现在看来我是一个对此很敏感的人。

It can really quite trigger me, so I stay away from it.

它真的很能触动我，所以我远离它。

We often see this with insomnia, too, and we call it the tired but wired phenomenon.

我们也经常在失眠中看到这种情况，我们称之为“疲倦但紧张的现象”。

And people will say to me, "Look, I am just so tired, Matt.

人们会对我说：“看，我太累了，马特。

I am so, so tired, but I'm just so wired that I can't fall asleep.

我好累好累，但我就是太兴奋了，睡不着。

I'm desperate for sleep.

我非常想睡觉。

I know I want sleep, but I can't fall asleep because I'm just so wired." And that is a sympathetic hyper cortisol state, and you can see it in their physiology.

我知道我想睡觉，但我睡不着，因为我太紧张了。”这是一种交感神经皮质醇亢进状态，你可以在他们的生理学中看到它。

But coming back to your question, cortisol will drop naturally throughout the night, but then it starts to rise back up and will start to produce its fantastic sort of peak climbing rate right at the moment when you would naturally, again, want to wake up.

但回到你的问题，皮质醇会在整个晚上自然下降，但随后它会开始回升，并在你自然地再次想要醒来的那一刻开始产生奇妙的峰值爬升率。

So what we're mapping here is this wonderful tapestry, this kaleidoscope of coordinated biology that your adenosine levels are finally coming to their lowest point.

所以我们在这里绘制的是这个美妙的挂毯，这个协调生物学的万花筒，你的腺苷水平终于达到了最低点。

Your circadian rhythm is starting to rise.

您的昼夜节律开始加快。

Your cortisol levels are starting to rise.

您的皮质醇水平开始上升。

Your core body temperature is starting to increase because it's dropped throughout the night.

您的核心体温开始升高，因为它在整个晚上都在下降。

All of these things unite in this beneficial timing ballet of just brilliance that naturally has you waking up and feeling like you're ready to go if everything is aligned, if you've got your chronotype right, your sleep quantity, your quality, regularity, and you're sleeping in appropriate sort of timed amounts.

所有这些事情结合在一起，形成了这出有益的时机芭蕾，如果一切都协调一致，如果你的生物钟类型、你的睡眠数量、你的质量、规律性以及你的睡眠时间合适，你自然会醒来并感觉自己已经准备好了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, your enchantment with sleep is indeed infectious.

嗯，你对睡眠的着迷确实具有感染力。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I've experienced it, and I know that everyone listening and watching has experienced it as well, as you've taken us through this truly spectacular voyage through this phenomenon that we call sleep.

我经历过，我知道每个听和观看的人也经历过，因为你带领我们经历了这个我们称之为睡眠的现象的真正壮观的旅程。

You informed us about what sleep is, what the different sleep cycles are, how they are structured and interrelated.

您向我们介绍了睡眠是什么、不同的睡眠周期是什么、它们的结构和相互关系如何。

You talked to us about the four macronutrients of good sleep, quantity, quality, regularity, and timing.

您与我们谈论了良好睡眠的四种常量营养素：数量、质量、规律性和时间。

It's highly actionable information.

这是高度可操作的信息。

And then, of course, some of the hormonal neurochemical interactions and consequences of good sleep, bad sleep for mental health, physical health, and performance.

当然，还有一些荷尔蒙神经化学相互作用以及良好睡眠、不良睡眠对心理健康、身体健康和表现的影响。

So first, I'd like to just extend a giant thank you for taking us on this voyage in this first of several or more episodes of this miniseries on sleep, and I very much look forward to our discussion in the next episode about how to improve one's sleep and perhaps even optimize one's sleep.

首先，我要衷心感谢您在这个关于睡眠的迷你剧的第一集中带领我们踏上这次旅程，我非常期待我们在下一集中讨论如何改善睡眠，甚至优化睡眠。

So thank you, Matt, ever so much on behalf of myself and listening audience.

所以，马特，我代表我自己和听众非常感谢你。

Can't wait to continue the discussion further.

迫不及待地想继续进一步讨论。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Can't wait.

等不及了。

Thank you again for having me and this opportunity.

再次感谢您给我带来这个机会。

What you do for the public, by the way, in terms of your advocacy for science and also for health, for what you do, thank you, and for giving me this opportunity to be here to share the message of sleep, thank you.

顺便说一句，你们为公众所做的一切，包括你们对科学和健康的倡导，你们所做的一切，谢谢你们，也谢谢你们给我这个机会在这里分享睡眠的信息，谢谢你们。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Thank you so much for the kind words.

非常感谢您的客气话。

It's a labor of love and it's a delight to be able to join arms in educating with you.

这是一种爱的劳动，很高兴能够与您携手教育。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Thank you.

谢谢你。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Thank you for joining me for today's episode with Dr. Matthew Walker.

感谢您接受我今天与马修·沃克博士的节目。

To learn more about Dr. Walker's research and to learn more about his book and his social media handles, please see the links in our show note captions.

要了解有关沃克博士的研究的更多信息以及有关他的书和社交媒体处理的更多信息，请参阅我们的节目注释标题中的链接。

If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.

如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。

That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.

这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。

In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify and Apple.

此外，请在 Spotify 和 Apple 上订阅该播客。

And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.

在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。

Please also check out the sponsors at the beginning and throughout today's episode.

还请在今天的节目开始和整个节目中查看赞助商。

That's the best way to support this podcast.

这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。

If you have any questions for me or comments about the podcast or topics or guests that you'd like me to feature on the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.

如果您对我有任何疑问或对您希望我在 Huberman Lab 播客上介绍的播客或主题或嘉宾有任何意见，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。

I do read all the comments.

我确实阅读了所有评论。

On many episodes of the Huberman Lab podcast, we discuss supplements.

在休伯曼实验室播客的许多剧集中，我们讨论了补充剂。

While supplements aren't necessary for everybody, many people derive tremendous benefit from them, for things like improving sleep, for hormone support, and for focus.

虽然补充剂并不是每个人都需要的，但许多人都从它们中获得了巨大的好处，例如改善睡眠、支持激素和集中注意力。

To learn more about the supplements discussed on the Huberman Lab podcast, go to Live Momentous, spelled O-U-S.

要了解有关 Huberman Lab 播客上讨论的补充剂的更多信息，请访问 Live Momentous（拼写为 O-U-S）。

That's livemomentous.com/huberman.

这是 livemomentous.com/huberman。

If you're not already following me on social media, I'm hubermanlab on all social media platforms, so that's Instagram, X, LinkedIn, Facebook, and Threads.

如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我在所有社交媒体平台上都是 hubermanlab，包括 Instagram、X、LinkedIn、Facebook 和 Threads。

And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content covered on the Huberman Lab podcast.

在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和科学相关工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客涵盖的内容不同。

So again, it's hubermanlab on all social media platforms.

再说一遍，所有社交媒体平台上都是 hubermanlab。

If you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, our Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost newsletter that provides podcast summaries as well as protocols in the form of brief one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from neuroplasticity and learning to sleep, to deliberate cold exposure and deliberate heat exposure.

如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，我们的神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的时事通讯，它提供播客摘要以及简短的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从神经可塑性和学习到睡眠，到有意冷暴露和有意热暴露的所有内容。

We have a foundational fitness protocol and much more, all of which, again, is completely zero cost.

我们有一个基本的健身协议等等，所有这些都是完全零成本的。

You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab, scroll down to Newsletter, and by supplying your email, you can subscribe.

您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到菜单选项卡，向下滚动到时事通讯，然后提供您的电子邮件即可订阅。

I want to point out that we do not share your email with anybody.

我想指出的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。

Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion all about sleep with Dr. Matthew Walker.

再次感谢您今天与马修·沃克博士一起参与有关睡眠的讨论。

And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。