Guest Series | Dr. Matthew Walker: Protocols to Improve Your Sleep

嘉宾系列|马修·沃克博士：改善睡眠的方案

2024-04-10 | 官方页面 YouTube 官方音频

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Welcome to the Huberman Lab Guest Series, where I and an expert guest discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

欢迎来到胡伯曼实验室嘉宾系列，我和一位专家嘉宾讨论了日常生活中的科学和基于科学的工具。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

Today marks the second episode in our six-episode series all about sleep with our expert guest, Dr. Matthew Walker.

今天是我们的专家嘉宾马修·沃克博士关于睡眠的六集系列节目的第二集。

During today's episode, we discuss the dos and the do nots of sleep, focusing, for instance, on how to use light and absence of light, as well as temperature, both of your sleep environment specifically, the room you're in, your body temperature, and much more, in order to regulate the timing and quality of your sleep.

And we discuss how things like alcohol, caffeine, and cannabis impact sleep and the various stages of sleep.

我们还讨论了酒精、咖啡因和大麻等物质如何影响睡眠以及睡眠的各个阶段。

And we discuss the various tools that exist now and that are rapidly becoming available to improve your sleep.

我们还讨论了现有的以及正在迅速出现的各种可改善您睡眠的工具。

This episode is essential for anyone trying to optimize their sleep.

这一集对于任何想要优化睡眠的人来说都是至关重要的。

And when I say optimize your sleep, I mean trying to optimize the formula that was addressed in the first episode of the series, which is the QQRT formula, the quality, quantity, regularity, and timing of your sleep.

当我说优化你的睡眠时，我的意思是尝试优化本系列第一集中提到的公式，即 QQRT 公式，即睡眠的质量、数量、规律性和时间。

Four variables that combine to determine whether or not your sleep is optimized for you and thereby providing the most restoration and improvement to your mental health, physical health, and performance.

四个变量结合起来决定您的睡眠是否适合您，从而为您的心理健康、身体健康和表现提供最大程度的恢复和改善。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。

Our first sponsor is Helix Sleep.

我们的第一个赞助商是 Helix Sleep。

Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep needs.

Helix Sleep 生产根据您独特的睡眠需求定制的床垫和枕头。

It's abundantly clear that sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance.

显而易见，睡眠是心理健康、身体健康和表现的基础。

When we're getting enough quality sleep, everything in life goes so much better, and when we are not getting enough quality sleep, everything in life is that much more challenging.

当我们获得足够的优质睡眠时，生活中的一切都会变得更好，而当我们没有获得足够的优质睡眠时，生活中的一切都会变得更具挑战性。

Now, one of the key things to getting a great night's sleep is to have the appropriate mattress.

现在，获得良好睡眠的关键之一是拥有合适的床垫。

Everyone, however, has slightly different needs in terms of what would be the optimal mattress for them.

然而，每个人对于最适合自己的床垫的需求略有不同。

Helix understands that people have unique sleep needs, and they've designed a brief two-minute quiz that asks you questions like, "Do you sleep on your back, your side, or your stomach?

Helix 了解人们有独特的睡眠需求，他们设计了一个两分钟的简短测验，询问您以下问题：“您是仰睡、侧睡还是俯睡？

Do you tend to run hot or cold during the night?" Or maybe you don't know the answers to those questions.

你晚上容易发热还是怕冷？”或者也许您不知道这些问题的答案。

If you go to the Helix site and take that brief quiz, they'll match you to a mattress that's optimal for you.

如果您访问 Helix 网站并参加简短的测验，他们将为您匹配最适合您的床垫。

For me, it turned out to be the Dusk, D-U-S-K mattress.

对我来说，它是 Dusk、D-U-S-K 床垫。

It's not too hard, not too soft, and I sleep so much better on my Helix mattress than on any other type of mattress I've used before.

它不太硬，也不太软，而且我在 Helix 床垫上睡得比我以前用过的任何其他类型的床垫都要好得多。

So if you're interested in upgrading your mattress, go to helixsleep.com/huberman, take their brief two-minute sleep quiz, and they'll match you to a customized mattress for you, and you'll get up to $350 off any mattress order and two free pillows.

Again, that's helixsleep.com/huberman to save up to $350 off and two free pillows.

再次强调，helixsleep.com/huberman 最多可节省 350 美元，并提供两个免费枕头。

Today's episode is also brought to us by WHOOP.

今天的节目也是WHOOP为我们带来的。

WHOOP is a fitness wearable device that tracks your daily activity and sleep but also goes beyond that by providing real-time feedback on how to adjust your training and sleep schedule to perform better.

WHOOP 是一款健身可穿戴设备，不仅可以跟踪您的日常活动和睡眠，还可以提供有关如何调整训练和睡眠时间表以提高表现的实时反馈。

I've been working with WHOOP on their scientific advisory council to try and help advance WHOOP's mission of unlocking human performance.

我一直在 WHOOP 的科学咨询委员会中与他们合作，努力帮助推进 WHOOP 解锁人类表现的使命。

As a WHOOP user, I've experienced the health benefits of their technology firsthand for sleep tracking, for monitoring other features of my physiology, and for giving me a lot of feedback about metrics within my brain and body that tell me how hard I should train or not train and basically point to the things that I'm doing correctly and incorrectly in my daily life that I can adjust using protocols, some of which are actually within the WHOOP app.

作为一名 WHOOP 用户，我亲身体验了他们的技术对健康的好处，包括睡眠跟踪、监测我的生理机能的其他特征，以及为我提供大量有关我的大脑和身体指标的反馈，这些反馈告诉我应该训练或不训练，并基本上指出我在日常生活中正确和不正确的事情，我可以使用协议进行调整，其中一些实际上是在 WHOOP 应用程序中。

Given that many of us have goals such as improving our sleep, building better habits, or just focusing more on our overall health, WHOOP is one of the tools that can really help you get personalized data, recommendations, and coaching toward your overall health.

If you're interested in trying WHOOP, you can go to join.whoop.com/huberman today to get your first month free.

如果您有兴趣尝试 WHOOP，您可以立即访问 join.whoop.com/huberman，享受第一个月的免费服务。

Again, that's join.whoop.com/huberman.

同样，这是 join.whoop.com/huberman。

Today's episode is also brought to us by Waking Up.

今天的节目也是由Wakeing Up为我们带来的。

Waking Up is a meditation app that has hundreds of different meditations as well as scripts for yoga nidra and non-sleep deep rest, or NSDR protocols.

By now, there's an abundance of data showing that even short daily meditations can greatly improve our mood, reduce anxiety, improve our ability to focus, and can improve our memory.

到目前为止，有大量数据表明，即使是每天短暂的冥想也可以极大地改善我们的情绪，减少焦虑，提高我们的注意力，并可以提高我们的记忆力。

And while there are many different forms of meditation, most people find it difficult to find and stick to a meditation practice in a way that is most beneficial for them.

The Waking Up app makes it extremely easy to learn how to meditate and to carry out your daily meditation practice in a way that's going to be most effective and efficient for you.

It includes a variety of different types of meditations of different duration, as well as things like yoga nidra, which place the brain and body into a sort of pseudo-sleep that allows you to emerge feeling incredibly mentally refreshed.

它包括各种不同类型、不同持续时间的冥想，以及瑜伽休息术等，它可以让大脑和身体进入一种假睡眠状态，让你在醒来时感觉精神焕发。

In fact, the science around yoga nidra is really impressive, showing that after a yoga nidra session, levels of dopamine in certain areas of the brain are enhanced by up to 60%, which places the brain and body into a state of enhanced readiness for mental work and for physical work.

Another thing I really like about the Waking Up app is that it provides a 30-day introduction course.

我真正喜欢 Waking Up 应用程序的另一件事是它提供了 30 天的入门课程。

So for those of you that have not meditated before or are getting back to a meditation practice, that's fantastic.

因此，对于那些以前没有冥想过或正在重新进行冥想练习的人来说，这真是太棒了。

Or if you're somebody who's already a skilled and regular meditator, Waking Up has more advanced meditations and yoga nidra sessions for you as well.

或者，如果您已经是一名熟练且定期的冥想者，Wake Up 也为您提供更高级的冥想和瑜伽休息课程。

If you'd like to try the Waking Up app, you can go to wakingup.com/huberman and access a free 30-day trial.

如果您想尝试 Waking Up 应用程序，可以访问 wakingup.com/huberman 并获得 30 天的免费试用。

Again, that's wakingup.com/huberman.

再说一遍，那就是 wakingup.com/huberman。

And now for my conversation with Dr. Matthew Walker.

现在是我与马修·沃克博士的对话。

Professor Matt Walker, welcome back.

马特·沃克教授，欢迎回来。

We're all so happy to have you here.

我们都很高兴您来到这里。

And in episode one, you beautifully described the biology of sleep, why sleep is important, what happens when we don't get enough sleep, and you incentivized getting adequate amounts of great sleep, and you defined what great sleep is, and you provided some excellent practical protocols and tools for getting great sleep.

However, today you're going to tell us, I believe, about the protocols for really optimizing One's sleep, both conventional tools and protocols, and some, let's say unconventional, not heretical, but unconventional tools for optimizing one's sleep.

So let's start with the basics.

那么让我们从基础开始吧。

What are the basics of what I think I've heard you refer to previously as sleep hygiene?

我想我听过您之前所说的睡眠卫生的基础知识是什么？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

I think many of us can resonate with the idea of dental hygiene, but turns out there's something called sleep hygiene.

我认为我们很多人都会对牙齿卫生的想法产生共鸣，但事实证明有一种叫做睡眠卫生的东西。

And there are probably, I would say, five edicts of sleep hygiene.

我想说，睡眠卫生方面可能有五项法令。

I offer them as tools and not necessarily rules, because I don't think people respond to rules.

我将它们作为工具提供，而不一定是规则，因为我认为人们不会对规则做出反应。

People respond to reasons and not rules.

人们对原因而不是规则做出反应。

So if it's okay, I'll probably just unpack each one of them rather than just sort of bark them at you and hope people assume that it's the right answer.

I'll explain the answer so people understand why it's important.

我将解释答案，以便人们理解为什么它很重要。

So as I said, there are probably five things that you can start doing tonight to try to improve your sleep.

The first we've spoken a little bit about in that first episode, it's part of the four macros of good sleep.

我们在第一集中谈到的第一件事是良好睡眠的四个宏的一部分。

First piece of advice, regularity.

第一条建议，规律性。

Go to bed at the same time and wake up at the same time, no matter whether it's the weekday or the weekend.

无论是工作日还是周末，都在同一时间睡觉和起床。

Regularity is king, and the reason is because when you feed your brain the signals of timed regularity for your sleep, it will anchor your sleep and improve the quantity and the quality of that sleep.

规律性才是王道，因为当您向大脑提供睡眠定时规律性信号时，它会固定您的睡眠并提高睡眠的数量和质量。

Because part of that signal of regularity going into your brain in terms of that repeated behavior night after night, sleep, in other words, helps train that central 24-hour circadian clock that we also spoke about in the first episode.

So that's the first piece of advice.

这是第一个建议。

Try to keep it as regular as you possibly can.

尽量保持规律。

The second piece of advice is darkness.

第二个建议是黑暗。

In my view, we are a dark-deprived society in this modern era, and we need darkness at night, as well you've spoken about, to release a hormone called melatonin, and melatonin will help time the regular onset of your sleep.

So that sounds great, but what boots on the ground, Matt, what does that mean?

这听起来不错，但是马特，这是什么意思？

I would suggest the following.

我建议如下。

In the last hour before bed, try to dim down 50%, if not more, of your lights in your home, and you will be quite surprised at how sleepy and soporific that will make you feel.

I will do this in a regimented way.

我会以有条理的方式来做这件事。

I have a little reminder that pops up and tells me, "Now is the time to dim the lights based on your bedtime." And I'll go around and I'll shut lights down.

我会弹出一个小提醒，告诉我：“现在是根据您的就寝时间调暗灯光的时候了。”我会四处走走，然后关灯。

In my bedroom, I will actually have a smart light bulb, and it is way down to probably as little as maybe five lux.

And lux is just a metric of the light.

勒克斯只是光的一个度量单位。

It's way down there, and it's also very deep orange, sort of red, and we can come onto why that's the case.

它就在那里，而且也是非常深的橙色，有点红色，我们可以明白为什么会这样。

So that's the first thing.

这是第一件事。

Even before you're thinking about sleep, start to decrease the light.

甚至在您考虑睡觉之前，就开始减少光线。

For example, if you were there at, let's say, for a standard sleep schedule at 10:00 p.m., and normally you are getting into bed at 10:30 p.m., but you feel pretty wide awake.

If there was an electrical blackout and you lost your phone, magnetic too, phone goes down, lights go down, total blackout.

如果停电，你的手机丢了，磁力手机也丢了，手机没电了，灯也灭了，整个停电。

My suspicion is that fairly soon you'd say, "Gosh, I actually feel quite sleepy." Whereas if the lights were blazing, you've got your phone, television's on, lots of stimulation, you're probably going to think, "10:30, no, I could probably push through for at least another hour." So try to dissipate that light, and then if you need to, wear an eye mask, blackout curtains, always good as well.

My suspicion is that fairly soon you'd say, "Gosh, I actually feel quite sleepy."然而，如果灯光明亮，你拿着手机，打开电视，充满刺激，你可能会想，“10:30，不，我可能至少还能再坚持一个小时。”因此，尽量驱散光线，如果需要的话，戴上眼罩、遮光窗帘，总是好的。

But we need that darkness at night because when you give the brain the signal of darkness, it releases effectively a brake pedal.

That brake pedal has normally been applied by way of light on the release of that spigot of melatonin.

通常，制动踏板是通过释放褪黑激素的插头来踩下的。

And when you take the brake pedal off, it starts pumping out into the brain.

当你松开刹车踏板时，它开始泵入大脑。

You can also then, of course, probably reverse engineer this trick in the morning, and this is another component of why you've been, I think, such a wonderful advocate for light in the morning.

当然，你也可以在早上对这个技巧进行逆向工程，我认为这也是为什么你一直是早晨光线的如此出色的倡导者的另一个原因。

It does many things, but one of the things that it does is reapply that brake on melatonin, and therefore you lose the signal to your brain of darkness.

That's what melatonin in some ways is doing.

这就是褪黑激素在某些方面的作用。

We often call it the hormone of darkness or the vampire hormone, not necessarily because it makes you look longingly at people's necklines and want to bite in, which is great if you're into that.

我们经常称其为黑暗荷尔蒙或吸血鬼荷尔蒙，不一定是因为它让你渴望地看着别人的领口并想咬进去，如果你喜欢的话，那就太好了。

But it's really simply about it's releasing melatonin, which tells the brain, "My goodness, it's nighttime." But if you've got bright light on, you come from your office, you're driving home, so you've got artificial light during the day, which is probably not strong enough to stimulate you and bring you awake.

But it's really simply about it's releasing melatonin, which tells the brain, "My goodness, it's nighttime."但是，如果您从办公室出来，开车回家时打开了明亮的灯光，那么白天您会受到人造光的影响，这种光可能不足以刺激您并使您清醒。

You come home, and you've got, again, bright light, but it's still strong enough now to prevent the release of melatonin.

当你回到家时，你又看到了明亮的光线，但它的强度仍然足以阻止褪黑激素的释放。

You start to shift in your timing, and you may have problems with your sleep.

你的作息时间开始改变，你的睡眠可能会出现问题。

So that's the second piece of advice.

这是第二个建议。

I would love to ask you about that morning light too and the alertness benefits.

我也很想问你关于晨光和警觉性的好处。

I'm As a sleep researcher more focused on the evening component of light and decreasing it, but you've done a great job.

I don't know if there's anything-

不知道有没有什么-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, there are a couple of quick points that are based on some, what I consider, really nice studies.

是的，有几个要点是基于一些我认为非常好的研究的。

There's beautiful work in humans showing that bright light exposure in the morning, especially from sunlight, but if one doesn't have access to sunlight for whatever reason, there are commercially available so-called SAD lamps, seasonal affective disorder lamps.

一项关于人类的出色研究表明，早晨暴露在明亮的光线下，尤其是阳光，但如果一个人由于某种原因无法接触到阳光，可以使用市售的所谓 SAD 灯，即季节性情感障碍灯。

They range anywhere from 5,000 to 10,000 lux, very bright.

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Wow.

哇。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But certainly, morning sunlight viewing and lamps of the sort I just described have been shown to increase the amplitude of the morning cortisol spike by as much as 50%, five zero.

So people hear cortisol and they freak out.

所以人们一听到皮质醇就会惊慌失措。

They think, "That's not good.

他们认为：“这不好。

I want my cortisol low." But you actually want your cortisol highest in the morning and lower in the afternoon and evening.

我希望我的皮质醇水平较低。” But you actually want your cortisol highest in the morning and lower in the afternoon and evening.

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And there's a lot of reasons for that, elevated mood focus and alertness in the morning and throughout the day, and ease of getting to sleep at night, lower anxiety, lower depressive symptoms, and so on.

造成这种情况的原因有很多，比如早上和全天情绪集中度和警觉性提高，晚上更容易入睡，焦虑程度降低，抑郁症状减轻等等。

So that bright light also serves to control the amplitude of cortisol in the direction you want in the early part of the day.

因此，明亮的光线还可以在一天的早些时候将皮质醇的幅度控制在您想要的方向上。

The other thing that's just more of a underlying dynamics of the circadian visual system, which is a system that I've worked on for years, these wonderful cells in the eyes that are not for image forming, but rather for detecting sunlight and bright light for sake of setting circadian rhythm, is that the sensitivity of that system early in the day is actually quite low.

另一件事更多的是昼夜节律视觉系统的潜在动态，这是我多年来研究的一个系统，眼睛中这些奇妙的细胞不是为了形成图像，而是为了检测阳光和强光以设定昼夜节律，是该系统在一天早些时候的敏感性实际上相当低。

So you need a lot of bright light early in the day to effectively wake up your system and shut down the sleepiness signals, such as melatonin.

因此，您需要在一天的早些时候接受大量明亮的光线来有效唤醒您的系统并关闭褪黑激素等睡意信号。

But later in the day, it's a rather diabolical system, it takes very little light, even from artificial sources, to disrupt your circadian rhythm and quash melatonin.

但在当天晚些时候，这是一个相当邪恶的系统，只需要很少的光，即使是人造光源，也会扰乱你的昼夜节律并抑制褪黑激素。

As little as 15 seconds of bright light in the evening, I think Chuck Czeisler's laboratory at Harvard Medical School showed can quash melatonin in the evening.

我认为哈佛医学院 Chuck Czeisler 的实验室表明，晚上只要 15 秒的强光就可以抑制褪黑激素的分泌。

Now, I don't want people to freak out and think that if they go into a hotel bathroom, which oftentimes those are very bright-

现在，我不希望人们惊慌失措，认为如果他们走进酒店的浴室，那里通常非常明亮——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

in the middle of the night, flip on the light, that they're going to completely screw up their circadian rhythms.

But if I'm honest, they'd be much better off using their phone as a flashlight to navigate.

People always say, "Well, wait, but the flashlight on the phone is very bright." But let's just get logical here.

人们总是说：“好吧，等等，但是手机上的手电筒很亮。”但让我们在这里逻辑一下。

A light shone into your eyes such as a flashlight is very different than looking at a flashlight beam on the ground.

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Far and away difference.

远近之别。

So the point is that if you don't get enough bright sunlight or light in your eyes early in the day, and then you're indoors under artificial lighting, you might think, "Well, this is really bright lighting.

所以关键是，如果你在一天早些时候没有获得足够明亮的阳光或光线进入你的眼睛，然后你在室内的人造照明下，你可能会想，“嗯，这真的是明亮的照明。

This is the kind of lighting that could disrupt my circadian rhythm at night, and therefore it's sufficient to wake up my system." No. Early in the day and throughout the day, you need a lot of bright light, as much as safely possible to avoid sunburn and things of that sort, which you don't want.

这种照明可能会扰乱我夜间的昼夜节律，因此足以唤醒我的系统。”不。在一天的早些时候和一整天，您都需要尽可能安全的大量明亮光线，以避免晒伤和类似的情况，而这是您不想要的。

But then as the evening comes around, after sundown, you need very little artificial light in order to disrupt your circadian rhythm.

但随着傍晚的到来，日落之后，您只需要很少的人造光来扰乱您的昼夜节律。

And then just very quickly, light from candles, fireplaces is okay.

This is kind of interesting.

这有点有趣。

It seems bright, but the measurements indicate that that's not going to shift your circadian rhythm much.

Candles are great, but of course, don't burn your house down.

蜡烛很棒，但当然，不要烧毁你的房子。

So the orange and red tones in the evening way dim down, that's the way to go.

因此，晚上的橙色和红色色调会变暗，这就是正确的方法。

Early in the day, bright, bright, bright light, as bright as you safely can tolerate.

清晨，明亮、明亮、明亮的光线，尽可能明亮到你可以安全忍受的程度。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And what I like about, firstly, your mention of cortisol, you described how cortisol is rising in the morning, and that's a great thing, and it is a good thing.

我喜欢的一点是，首先，你提到了皮质醇，你描述了皮质醇在早上是如何上升的，这是一件伟大的事情，这是一件好事。

And in the evening, it's starting to drop.

到了晚上，气温开始下降。

And if you look right around your prototypical bedtime, and we're going to speak later in this episode as to what your real natural bedtime is versus the one that you may be taking right now.

如果你看看你的典型就寝时间，我们将在本集稍后讨论你真正的自然就寝时间与你现在可能采取的就寝时间。

It's very interesting.

这很有趣。

Cortisol will almost hit its lowest point, something that we call its nadir.

It's the lowest point in that trough of its decline, right around the time when you should be sleeping.

这是其衰退的最低点，正好是您应该睡觉的时间。

However, there was a great study that looked at people with insomnia.

然而，有一项针对失眠患者的伟大研究。

And in subsequent episodes, we'll discuss this too, but one of the ways that we think about or conceptualize insomnia is in two different flavors, sleep onset insomnia, I can't fall asleep, and sleep maintenance insomnia, I wake up, I can't get back to sleep.

在后续的剧集中，我们也会讨论这个问题，但我们思考或概念化失眠的方式之一有两种不同的风格：入睡失眠，我无法入睡，以及睡眠维持失眠，我醒来，我无法再入睡。

And what they looked at was essentially cortisol levels.

他们观察的基本上是皮质醇水平。

They had a catheter in the arm, and they were sampling it from the bloodstream, and they were able to do that every 30 minutes.

他们在手臂上插了一根导管，从血液中取样，每 30 分钟就取样一次。

So it's a little bit like time-lapse photography, and you're getting a data point every 30 minutes across the 24-hour period, looking at cortisol across now a full 24-hour period.

所以这有点像延时摄影，你在 24 小时内每 30 分钟获得一个数据点，查看现在整个 24 小时内的皮质醇。

And sure enough, when you look at healthy controls who can sleep well and insomnia patients, they look almost identical across the day.

果然，当你观察睡眠良好的健康对照组和失眠患者时，他们在一天中看起来几乎是一样的。

But then when it comes to falling asleep right around that bedtime period, the healthy controls are going all the way down.

但当谈到就寝时间附近入睡时，健康控制就会一路下降。

The insomnia patients go down and down and down, and then they have a rise back up right around that sleep onset period.

失眠症患者的睡眠质量会不断下降，然后在睡眠开始时间左右又会上升。

And then they start to drop back down again, just as the control group.

But then they also often will have a spike in the middle of the night, which then comes down, and then both of them are staying low throughout the early morning period, and then it starts to rise back up.

但它们也经常会在半夜出现峰值，然后下降，然后它们在整个清晨都保持在低位，然后又开始回升。

So it's not as though net net overall there is a higher level of cortisol in people with insomnia.

因此，失眠患者的皮质醇水平总体上并不较高。

It seems to be right at those trigger zones that map very nicely to sleep onset problems and sleep maintenance problems.

它似乎正好位于那些非常适合睡眠开始问题和睡眠维持问题的触发区。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Very interesting.

非常有趣。

As somebody who wakes up in the middle of the night and sometimes has trouble getting back to sleep, that resonates.

作为一个在半夜醒来并且有时难以入睡的人，这会引起共鸣。

I have no trouble falling asleep whatsoever.

我入睡没有任何困难。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Knock on wood.

敲木头。

I'm superstitious about this at this point.

我现在对此很迷信。

But I use tools like non-sleep deep rest, Yoga Nidra, long exhale breathing.

但我使用非睡眠深度休息、瑜伽休息术、长呼气呼吸等工具。

And I think these wake up- ...

我认为这些唤醒了......

episodes seem to happen more when I'm processing a lot of stuff from my daily life.

当我处理日常生活中的很多事情时，情节似乎会发生得更多。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

That's right.

没错。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's the unconscious brain oftentimes is working through things and will wake us up.

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

I often think that sleep maintenance insomnia that you've just described is the revenge of daytime emotions unresolved.

我常常认为你刚才描述的睡眠维持性失眠是白天情绪未解决的报复。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's a great way to put it.

这是一个很好的表达方式。

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

So we've spoken about regularity, we've spoken about darkness, and we've spoken about the inverse of that in the morning, which is light, a little bit of cortisol.

所以我们谈到了规律性，我们谈到了黑暗，我们也谈到了早晨的相反情况，那就是光明，一点点皮质醇。

So the third out of the five is going to be temperature, and the advice here is keep it cool.

所以五个中的第三个是温度，这里的建议是保持凉爽。

As we mentioned a little bit in the first episode, and we will go into great detail when we speak, not just about these conventional and unconventional tips, but we're also going to go into the future of science and where sleep science is taking us to, in fact, optimize and even enhance our sleep.

正如我们在第一集中提到的，我们在演讲时将详细介绍，不仅仅是这些传统和非传统的技巧，而且我们还将探讨科学的未来，以及睡眠科学实际上将带我们优化甚至增强我们的睡眠。

We will speak a lot about temperature.

我们将谈论很多关于温度的内容。

Suffice to say that you need to drop your core body temperature and your brain temperature by a little less than one degree Celsius, two to three degrees Fahrenheit, to get to sleep and stay asleep.

可以说，您需要将核心体温和大脑温度降低不到一摄氏度，两到三华氏度，才能入睡并保持睡眠状态。

The general target that we have in sleep science, if you look across the literature, is somewhere around about a 67 degree Fahrenheit or, I'm trying to do the calculation, maybe 18.5-ish degrees Celsius.

如果你翻阅文献，我们在睡眠科学中的总体目标是大约 67 华氏度，或者，我正在尝试计算，可能是 18.5 摄氏度左右。

Now, I know that that sounds cold, and cold it is, but you can also wear thick socks to bed.

现在，我知道这听起来很冷，而且确实很冷，但你也可以穿厚袜子睡觉。

You can have a hot water bottle at the end of the bed.

您可以在床尾放一个热水袋。

That's great, too, but the ambient must be cold.

那也很好，但是环境一定很冷。

The fourth piece of advice is walk it out, and here what I mean is do not stay in bed for long periods of time awake.

第四条建议是走出去，我的意思是不要长时间醒着躺在床上。

And I think we mentioned this perhaps in the first episode, too.

我想我们也许在第一集中也提到过这一点。

When you are awake in your bed for long stretches of time, because your brain is an incredibly associative device, it will quickly learn that this thing called my bed is the place where I'm awake and not asleep.

当你在床上长时间醒着时，因为你的大脑是一个令人难以置信的联想装置，它很快就会知道这个叫做我的床的东西是我醒着而不是睡着的地方。

And what you need to do is break that association.

而你需要做的就是打破这种关联。

If you've learned that time and time again because you've stayed in bed, and the rule of thumb, and it's just a rule of thumb, about 20, 25 minutes, if you can't fall back asleep or you can't fall asleep, it's okay.

如果你一次又一次地学会了这一点，因为你一直躺在床上，并且经验法则，这只是经验法则，大约 20、25 分钟，如果你无法重新入睡或无法入睡，那没关系。

Just say, "Look, tonight is not my night.

只要说：“看，今晚不是我的夜晚。

It's not a problem.

这不是问题。

Tomorrow is not completely shot.

明天还没完全拍完。

It's fine.

没关系。

I'm just going to get up, get out of bed." If you can, if you're lucky enough, try to go to a different room, and in dim light, read a book, listen to a podcast.

我要起床，从床上起来。”如果可以的话，如果你足够幸运，尝试去另一个房间，在昏暗的灯光下看书，听播客。

Whatever it is that relaxes you, just do that.

不管是什么能让你放松，就去做吧。

Don't check email, don't eat, because if you start eating, that again trains your brain to start waking up and feeding at that time.

不要查看电子邮件，不要吃东西，因为如果你开始吃东西，就会再次训练你的大脑在那时开始醒来并进食。

And only return to bed when you are sleepy, and there is no time limit for that.

只有当你困了的时候才回到床上，而且没有时间限制。

I don't want you to come back after half an hour when you are still awake and not feeling sleepy enough.

我不希望你半小时后回来，那时你还醒着，感觉不够困。

Why?

为什么？

Because you're going to get back into bed and be in the same problem again.

因为你会回到床上并再次遇到同样的问题。

And gradually, if you do this, and it's hard to do it, you will relearn the association that you had, I'm sure, as a child, which is that your bed is this place of sleepiness.

渐渐地，如果你这样做，而且很难做到，你就会重新认识你小时候的联想，我确信，你的床就是这个让人昏昏欲睡的地方。

Because often people will be saying, "I feel so tired in the evening." And then they get into bed and they say, "But now I can't fall asleep at all, and I don't understand it." In part, it's because of that learned association.

因为人们常常会说：“我晚上感觉很累。”然后他们上床说：“但现在我根本睡不着，我不明白。”部分原因在于这种习得性关联。

So that would be the fourth tip.

这就是第四个技巧。

The fifth tip makes me even more unpopular as a personality and character, which is try to be mindful of your alcohol and caffeine.

第五条建议让我在性格和性格上更加不受欢迎，那就是尽量注意酒精和咖啡因。

Now, in a subsequent episode, we'll go into great detail as to how caffeine works, its mechanisms, why it is sleep disruptive, and why, in fact, I've even perhaps changed my mind on caffeine and its benefits, but it also does have significant detriments to your sleep.

现在，在接下来的一集中，我们将详细介绍咖啡因的作用原理、其机制、为什么它会破坏睡眠，以及为什么事实上我什至可能改变了对咖啡因及其好处的看法，但它确实对您的睡眠有重大损害。

So the rule of thumb here would be try to cut yourself off from caffeine probably at least 10 or so hours before you expect to go to bed, and you can just calculate back, calculate that.

因此，这里的经验法则是，在您打算睡觉之前至少 10 个小时左右尝试戒掉咖啡因，然后您可以回算一下。

And try to limit it.

并尝试限制它。

So the dose and the timing make the poison.

所以剂量和时间就产生了毒。

Cut yourself off after maybe two or three cups of coffee, and then that timing component, count yourself back, cut yourself off.

喝完两三杯咖啡后就可以让自己停下来，然后在计时部分，倒计时，让自己停下来。

Decaffeinated coffee, not too bad if you find the right thing, too, if you need that fix.

不含咖啡因的咖啡，如果你找到合适的东西，如果你需要解决这个问题，那也不错。

Alcohol is probably one of the most misunderstood sleep aids in quotes that there is.

酒精可能是最容易被误解的助眠剂之一。

It is no sleep aid at all.

它根本没有助眠作用。

Now, if I didn't understand what I know about alcohol and sleep, I would think that too, which is, look, when I have a nightcap just before bed or two, even though I don't wear them, I may actually just fall asleep very easily.

现在，如果我不明白我对酒精和睡眠的了解，我也会这么认为，也就是说，看，当我在睡觉前喝一两杯睡帽时，即使我不戴它们，我实际上可能很容易睡着。

It feels like I stay asleep very soundly across the night.

感觉就像我整个晚上都睡得很香。

So it's a great sleep aid, and it really helps me.

所以它是一种很好的睡眠辅助剂，对我确实有帮助。

There are at least, I would say, three issues with alcohol.

我想说，酒精至少存在三个问题。

The first is that alcohol is in a class of drugs that we call the sedatives.

首先，酒精属于一类我们称为镇静剂的药物。

And sedation is not sleep.

镇静并不是睡眠。

But when you take on board alcohol in the evening, you mistake the former for the latter, and you think it helps you fall asleep.

但当你晚上在飞机上喝酒时，你会把前者误认为后者，并认为它可以帮助你入睡。

The second thing is that because it's sedation, or actually, it's probably related to sedation, if I were to show you the electrical signature of your deep sleep when you're Just sleeping naturally versus when you have alcohol in your system, it's not really the same.

第二件事是，因为它是镇静剂，或者实际上，它可能与镇静剂有关，如果我向你展示你自然睡眠时的深度睡眠的电信号与你体内有酒精时的电信号，它实际上是不一样的。

It's not a naturalistic form of deep sleep.

这不是深度睡眠的自然形式。

It mimics it.

它模仿它。

It looks not too dissimilar.

看上去并没有太大的不同。

But if I really do my analyses and I, almost like that Pink Floyd album where I take the white light of electrical brain activity coming from your head as you're sleeping and split it apart into all of the different components, there are some components that are no longer present or some that are abnormally present.

但如果我真的进行分析，就像平克·弗洛伊德的专辑一样，我在你睡觉时获取来自你头部的脑电活动的白光，并将其分成所有不同的成分，有些成分不再存在，有些成分异常存在。

The second issue with alcohol is that it fragments your sleep.

酒精的第二个问题是它会破坏你的睡眠。

So it will litter your sleep with all these punctuated awakenings throughout the night.

因此，整个晚上所有这些断断续续的觉醒都会扰乱你的睡眠。

The danger there is that many of those awakenings with alcohol, you don't remember because they're too brief.

危险在于，许多酒精唤醒你都不记得了，因为它们太短暂了。

But then you wake up the next day and you think, "Well, I didn't have a problem falling asleep.

但第二天你醒来时会想：“嗯，我入睡没有问题。

I didn't have a problem staying asleep, but I feel rough.

我入睡没有问题，但我感觉很困难。

I just don't feel restored by my sleep." And you don't add two and two together.

我只是感觉睡眠没有恢复过来。”而且你不会将两个和两个加在一起。

The final concern with alcohol is that it's quite a potent blocker of your rapid eye movement sleep, or REM sleep.

关于酒精的最后一个担忧是，它是快速眼动睡眠（REM 睡眠）的有力阻碍者。

And in subsequent episodes, we'll go into great detail as to the incredible learning and memory creativity benefits that come by way of REM sleep.

在接下来的几集中，我们将详细介绍快速眼动睡眠对学习和记忆创造力带来的令人难以置信的好处。

Also, it's essential for our emotional regulation and recalibrating our moods.

此外，它对于我们的情绪调节和重新调整情绪也至关重要。

So for all of those reasons, I would say two things.

因此，出于所有这些原因，我想说两件事。

First, if you are struggling with sleep, not feeling restored by your sleep, keep in mind your alcohol intake, and also just in general, be mindful of that if you are thinking about your sleep and want to preserve it.

首先，如果您在睡眠方面遇到困难，感觉睡眠没有恢复，请记住您的酒精摄入量，并且一般而言，如果您正在考虑睡眠并希望保持睡眠，请注意这一点。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So much of what you just said resonates.

你刚才说的很多话引起了共鸣。

I confess that in my lifetime, I've had periods of pretty spectacular sleep.

我承认，在我的一生中，我曾经历过一段非常美妙的睡眠时期。

I characterize myself as somebody that could fall asleep anywhere, anytime.

我形容自己是一个随时随地都能睡着的人。

But I've also experienced the extreme challenges of sleep.

但我也经历过睡眠的极端挑战。

And that relates to different things, life circumstances, et cetera.

这与不同的事物、生活环境等有关。

In fact, recently I've had some challenges with sleep despite using the protocols that I and others suggest.

事实上，尽管我使用了我和其他人建议的方案，但最近我在睡眠方面遇到了一些挑战。

I hadn't heard some of the things that you're referring to here.

我没有听说过你在这里提到的一些事情。

And middle-of-the-night waking has become more of an issue.

半夜醒来已经成为一个更严重的问题。

I communicated this to a former girlfriend of mine who I was in a relationship with when I was a junior professor, meaning before I got tenure.

我把这件事告诉了我的一位前女友，当我还是一名初级教授时，也就是在我获得终身教授职位之前，我就和她有过恋爱关系。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And she said, "You don't remember, Andrew, but I do.

她说：“你不记得了，安德鲁，但我记得。

You had a pattern back then of after I would fall asleep, you would continue working on your laptop, probably on grants."

当时你有一个模式，在我睡着后，你会继续在你的笔记本电脑上工作，可能需要补助金。”

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And then I would fall asleep working, and then according to her, I would wake up in the middle of the night and work a little bit until I'd get tired again and then fall asleep, and then this would repeat.

然后我会在工作中睡着，然后根据她的说法，我会在半夜醒来并工作一点，直到我再次感到疲倦，然后睡着，然后这种情况就会重复。

So really stamping down the associative learning element that you talked about before.

因此，真正要消除你之前谈到的联想学习元素。

So that was probably the first-

所以这可能是第一个——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

period of time in my life in which I created this rather deleterious association of work in the middle of the night in bed.

在我一生中的一段时间里，我在半夜躺在床上创造了这种相当有害的工作联系。

Right?

正确的？

And then more recently, I've had the experience of waking up probably due to these daytime things that I'm waking up in the middle of the night thinking about.

最近，我有过醒来的经历，可能是因为我在半夜醒来思考这些白天的事情。

And now because of our discussion during the course of recording this series, I get out of bed after even 10, 15 minutes-

现在因为我们在录制这个系列的过程中的讨论，我什至在10、15分钟后就起床了-

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

so that I can start to eliminate that association.

这样我就可以开始消除这种联系。

And another piece is that I've always felt that when I get out of bed in the middle of the night because I can't sleep and I go to the sofa, I often can sleep very well.

还有一点就是，我一直觉得，半夜因为睡不着而起床，走到沙发上时，往往都能睡得很好。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And the reason being-

原因是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Proving, right?

证明，对吗？

It's a control experiment, proving that the location of sleep and the association of wakefulness and sleep in bed as opposed to on the sofa is a clear component.

这是一个对照实验，证明睡眠的位置以及清醒和在床上而不是在沙发上睡觉的关联是一个明确的组成部分。

And this is in an environment that's of equal temperature.

这是在相同温度的环境中。

It's not a perfect experiment, right?

这不是一个完美的实验，对吧？

It's anecdata, as we say, but I think that the associative piece is oh so strong for many people.

正如我们所说，这是轶事，但我认为这个联想片段对很多人来说非常强烈。

And so this is something to really take seriously.

所以这是值得认真对待的事情。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

I love that notion.

我喜欢这个想法。

And people will often say, "I just get up.

人们常常会说：“我刚起床。

I go to the couch or the sofa, and that's where I'll wake up in the morning." Also, they'll say, "When I travel and I go to a hotel room, I just can sleep fine." Now, for some people it's the inverse, but for those people it's the contextual difference, meaning the change of the environment is so unfamiliar that it has not been bound to the association of wakefulness.

我走到沙发或沙发上，那是我早上醒来的地方。”此外，他们还会说，“当我旅行时，我去酒店房间，我就能睡个好觉。”现在，对于某些人来说，这是相反的，但对于那些人来说，这是上下文差异，这意味着环境的变化是如此陌生，以至于它与觉醒的联系无关。

It's related to sleep, or at least the opportunity to sleep.

这与睡眠有关，或者至少与睡眠的机会有关。

Sometimes even I've heard from some people, and there's no studies or data on this, even turning yourself around.

有时甚至我也听过一些人的说法，但没有这方面的研究或数据，甚至你自己也没有。

Now, this is hard if you have a partner in bed, but you just switch top to bottom of the bed, and you take your pillow and you pull the duvet all the way down, and you put the pillow at the opposite end where your feet used to be, and you get into bed.

现在，如果你有一个伴侣在床上，这就很难了，但你只要把床的顶部换到底部，拿起枕头，把羽绒被一直拉下来，然后把枕头放在你脚原来所在的另一端，然后你就上床了。

And even just looking around and sort of having a difference, that alone is so subtle, but it can make a real difference.

即使只是环顾四周并有所不同，虽然这一点很微妙，但它可以带来真正的改变。

So again, just keep these things in mind.

再次强调，请记住这些事情。

I know it sounds strange, this whole sort of get up, get out of bed, break the associate.

我知道这听起来很奇怪，这整个起床，下床，打破伙伴关系。

And we'll come onto something-- Well, actually, I'll come onto it now because I think it's one of the unconventional tips, and you mentioned it.

我们会谈到一些事情——嗯，实际上，我现在会谈到它，因为我认为这是非常规的技巧之一，你也提到了它。

A lot of people say to me, "That all sounds great.

很多人对我说：“这听起来很棒。

The science makes sense.

科学是有道理的。

It's dark.

天黑了。

It's kind of cold.

有点冷。

I really don't want to get out of bed.

我真的不想起床。

So give me some alternatives." I think the single best piece of unconventional sleep advice I can give you is do anything that gets your mind off itself.

所以请给我一些替代方案。”我认为我能给你的最好的非常规睡眠建议就是做任何让你的注意力转移的事情。

The principal reason that if you look at insomnia as a physiological condition, our current working model mechanistically of how insomnia plays out is that you are in this state of almost low-level anxiety And you are somewhat stressed, and when you go to sleep or you try to go to sleep or you wake back up and you try to get back to sleep, you just have this Rolodex of anxiety.

如果你将失眠视为一种生理状况，那么我们当前关于失眠如何发挥作用的工作模式的主要原因是，你处于这种几乎低水平焦虑的状态，并且你有一定的压力，当你入睡或你试图入睡或你醒来并尝试重新入睡时，你就会有这样的焦虑名片。

In the modern world, we are constantly on reception and very rarely do we do reflection.

在现代世界，我们总是处于接待状态，很少进行反思。

And unfortunately for many of us, and I've been guilty of this, the only time we do reflection is when our head is placed on the pillow and we turn the light out, and that is the last time you want to be doing reflection.

不幸的是，对于我们许多人来说，我对此感到内疚，我们唯一一次进行反思是当我们的头放在枕头上并关掉灯时，这是你最后一次想做反思。

That's the worst moment.

那是最糟糕的时刻。

And at that point, I think everyone can empathize with the idea of you turn the light out, you're under stress, your mind goes to those few things.

到那时，我想每个人都会理解你关掉灯的想法，你处于压力之下，你的注意力集中在这几件事上。

In the darkness of night, thoughts become almost 10 times worse than they do in the bright of day.

在漆黑的夜晚，思想变得比白天明亮的时候糟糕近十倍。

And at that moment, you start to ruminate.

在那一刻，你开始沉思。

When you ruminate, you begin to catastrophize.

当你沉思时，你就开始灾难化。

And when you catastrophize, you're dead in the water for the next two hours.

当你遭遇灾难时，你会在接下来的两个小时里死在水里。

So what do you do?

那么你做什么呢？

The problem is, as I said, your mind is on itself, and it's going through these repeated loops.

问题是，正如我所说，你的思想只关注自己，并且它正在经历这些重复的循环。

Anything you can do, for example, you can do some kind of a meditation.

例如，你可以做任何你能做的事情，你可以做某种冥想。

And when I was researching data for my book some years ago, I did look into meditation, and I wasn't a meditator.

几年前，当我为我的书研究数据时，我确实研究过冥想，但我并不是一个冥想者。

I was a hard-nosed scientist.

我是一位顽固的科学家。

I didn't really embrace with that notion or even that group of people.

我并没有真正接受这个想法，甚至没有接受那群人。

But time and again, I read paper after paper, and the data was very strong, and it was coming from research groups that I respected very much indeed.

但我一遍又一遍地阅读论文，数据非常有力，而且来自我非常尊重的研究小组。

So I thought, "Well, okay.

所以我想：“好吧，好吧。

I should probably give this a try." And that was six years ago.

我也许应该尝试一下。”那是六年前的事了。

And since then, I now meditate for 10 minutes every single night before bed.

从那时起，我现在每晚睡前冥想 10 分钟。

I do a guided meditation because I'm not particularly skilled, so I use an app that moves me through that.

我会进行引导式冥想，因为我不是特别熟练，所以我使用一个应用程序来引导我完成冥想。

But you can do whatever meditation you like.

但你可以做任何你喜欢的冥想。

That's one example.

这就是一个例子。

The second example is you can do breathing methods because again, you're focused on your breath, and what are you not focused on?

第二个例子是你可以练习呼吸方法，因为你再次专注于你的呼吸，而你不关注什么？

Your thoughts.

你的想法。

And so anything that will allow you to explore some other focus, maybe it's a body scan where you start at the top of your head or you start at your feet and you work your way up and you just say, "Moving through now my neck.

所以任何能让你探索其他焦点的事情，也许是身体扫描，你从头顶开始，或者从脚部开始，一路向上，你只需说，“现在穿过我的脖子。

What sensations am I feeling?

我有什么感觉？

Now into my shoulders.

现在到了我的肩膀上。

Moving down into my chest now.

现在向下移动到我的胸口。

I can feel the ends of my fingers.

我能感觉到我的手指末端。

Am I sensing anything?" And when you start doing that or any of these types of things, the next thing that you remember is your alarm going off in the morning because you got your mind off itself.

我感觉到什么了吗？”当你开始做这样的事情或任何此类事情时，你记得的下一件事就是你的闹钟在早上响起，因为你的注意力分散了。

So I would say that that's probably one of the unconventional tips, but let me come back to the conventional.

所以我想说这可能是非常规技巧之一，但让我回到传统的话题。

Anything else I've probably missed out or been unclear about there?

还有什么我可能错过或不清楚的地方吗？

Actually, I should probably say one thing in terms of these.

事实上，我或许应该就这些说一件事。

They're not tips.

它们不是提示。

I don't like the word, and I know you don't either, or hacks.

我不喜欢黑客这个词，我知道你也不喜欢。

These are protocols, and they're well-informed scientific protocols.

这些是协议，而且是消息灵通的科学协议。

In all of this discussion today, you can get all of these things in place and still have problems with sleep.

在今天所有的讨论中，您可以将所有这些事情都放在适当的位置，但仍然存在睡眠问题。

The reason is because you may be suffering from a sleep disorder.

原因是你可能患有睡眠障碍。

So the analogy would be, let's say that I'm your athletic coach and you're a sports superstar.

所以类比是，假设我是你的体育教练，你是体育巨星。

I can perfect everything.

我可以让一切变得完美。

I can perfect your diet, your supplements.

我可以完善你的饮食、你的补充剂。

We can perfect your technique, we can perfect-- But if you've got a broken ankle, none of those things are going to alter your performance right now.

我们可以完善你的技术，我们可以完善——但如果你的脚踝骨折了，那么现在这些都不会改变你的表现。

You've got to get to a doctor and get that seen to, and then we can come back to fine-tuning your performance.

你必须去看医生并接受检查，然后我们才能回来微调你的表现。

It's the same with sleep.

睡眠也是如此。

If you've got a sleep disorder, such as snoring, sleep apnea, or insomnia, we need to get you to a doctor first, and then only after that, come back once you're resolved, then we can start to optimize.

如果你有睡眠障碍，比如打鼾、睡眠呼吸暂停、失眠等，我们需要先带你去看医生，等问题解决后再回来，我们才能开始优化。

That's the only other thing I probably should mention.

这是我可能应该提到的唯一一件事。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

This is all very useful discussion because I think that of course there will be those folks out there that just like, "What are they talking about?

这都是非常有用的讨论，因为我认为当然会有一些人会说，“他们在说什么？

I sleep so well at night." Consider yourself blessed.

我晚上睡得很好。”认为自己是有福的。

Many, many people struggle with challenges with sleep, and I think it's fair to say that sooner or later, most everybody experiences some challenges with sleep for whatever reason.

很多很多人都在与睡眠方面的挑战作斗争，我认为公平地说，大多数人迟早都会因为某种原因而经历一些睡眠方面的挑战。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

You look at the statistics, that's highly likely.

你看看统计数据，这种可能性很大。

In your lifetime, you are more than likely to go through either a period of challenging sleep or, in fact, a bout of insomnia.

在您的一生中，您很可能会经历一段睡眠困难的时期，或者实际上是一段失眠时期。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。

AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also contains adaptogens and is designed to meet all of your foundational nutritional needs.

AG1 是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮料，还含有适应原，旨在满足您的所有基本营养需求。

By now, I'm sure you've all heard me say that I've been taking AG1 since 2012, and indeed, that is true.

到现在为止，我相信你们都听我说过，我从 2012 年就开始服用 AG1，确实如此。

Now, of course, I do consume regular whole foods every day.

当然，现在我每天都会定期食用天然食品。

I strive to get those foods mostly from unprocessed or minimally processed sources.

我努力从未加工或最低限度加工的来源获取这些食物。

However, I do find it hard to get enough servings of fruits and vegetables each day.

然而，我确实发现每天很难获得足够的水果和蔬菜。

So with AG1, I ensure that I get enough of the vitamins, minerals, prebiotic fiber, and other things typically found in fruits or vegetables, and of course, I still make sure to eat fruits and vegetables, and in that way, provide a sort of insurance that I'm getting enough of what I need.

因此，通过 AG1，我确保获得足够的维生素、矿物质、益生元纤维以及水果或蔬菜中常见的其他物质，当然，我仍然确保吃水果和蔬菜，这样就提供了一种保证，确保我获得了足够的所需物质。

In addition, the adaptogens and other micronutrients in AG1 really help buffer against stress and ensure that the cells and organs and tissues of my body are getting the things they need.

此外，AG1 中的适应原和其他微量营养素确实有助于缓冲压力，并确保我身体的细胞、器官和组织得到它们所需的东西。

People often ask me that if they were going to take just one supplement, what that supplement should be, and I always answer AG1.

人们经常问我，如果他们只服用一种补充剂，该补充剂应该是什么，我总是回答 AG1。

If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.

如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。

You'll get five free travel packs plus a year's supply of vitamin D3 K2.

您将获得五个免费旅行包以及一年的维生素 D3 K2 供应。

Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman.

再说一遍，这是 Drinkag1.com/huberman。

You talked about alcohol.

你谈到了酒精。

I'm not a consumer of alcohol anymore.

我不再是酒精的消费者了。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Nor am I, and it's not because I have anything against it.

我也不是，这并不是因为我有什么反对的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Many people do enjoy it, and we're not calling judgment on them.

很多人确实喜欢它，我们不会对他们做出评判。

Certainly much of the world enjoys alcohol.

当然，世界上很多人都喜欢喝酒。

Could we talk a little bit more about aside from demolishing REM sleep, do we know that alcohol causes these disruptions in sleep directly, meaning by changing the pattern of release of neurotransmitters like GABA, things of that sort?

除了破坏快速眼动睡眠之外，我们能否再多谈谈，我们是否知道酒精会直接导致这些睡眠中断，即通过改变 GABA 等神经递质的释放模式？

Or is this an indirect effect?

或者说这是一种间接影响？

Is this through the gut microbiome that then impacts sleep?

这是通过肠道微生物群影响睡眠吗？

And the reason I ask is maybe we could get to some more specific dos and do not protocols.

我问的原因是也许我们可以制定一些更具体的应做和不应做的协议。

So for instance, if somebody wants to have a cocktail, how close to sleep can they get and not diminish their rapid eye movement sleep too much?

举例来说，如果有人想喝一杯鸡尾酒，他们能在多接近睡眠的时候才不会过多地减少快速动眼睡眠呢？

Because people are still going to want to drink.

因为人们仍然想喝酒。

And with that said, if people do have a couple of drinks and then they go to sleep, is there anything they can do prior to sleep to try and rescue some of their quality sleep?

话虽如此，如果人们确实喝了几杯然后就睡觉了，他们在睡觉前可以做些什么来尝试挽救一些高质量的睡眠吗？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Great question.

很好的问题。

So in terms of the mechanism, it seems actually not to be the alcohol, but some of the metabolic byproducts of alcohol.

所以从机理上来说，似乎实际上不是酒精，而是酒精的一些代谢副产物。

We think that perhaps the main culprit may be some of the aldehydes that are the metabolic separate consequences of alcohol metabolism.

我们认为罪魁祸首可能是一些醛类，它们是酒精代谢的单独代谢结果。

You make a good point, though, in terms of the dose response timing curve.

不过，就剂量反应时间曲线而言，您提出了一个很好的观点。

How late or how early do I have to cut myself off from alcohol?

我需要多晚或多早戒酒？

People have done those studies, and they have found that even an afternoon single glass of wine, if you measure sleep in the way that we measure it at Bicenter with high fidelity, you can see compromises and impairments.

人们已经完成了这些研究，他们发现，即使是下午喝一杯酒，如果您按照我们在 Bicenter 测量睡眠的方式以高保真度测量睡眠，您也可以看到妥协和损害。

I wish I could tell you otherwise.

我希望我能告诉你另外的情况。

I would say that based on that data, the principal protocol advice I would have for you is go to the pub in the morning.

我想说的是，根据这些数据，我为您提供的主要协议建议是早上去酒吧。

That way, by the time you're about to sleep, the alcohol is out your system and you're good.

这样，当您即将入睡时，酒精就会从您的系统中排出，您就会感觉良好。

No, I would never.

不，我永远不会。

As a public scientist, I would never advocate necessarily for morning.

作为一名公共科学家，我永远不会提倡早上。

I'm just kidding you.

我只是在跟你开玩笑。

But that's one of the unfortunate consequences.

但这是不幸的后果之一。

There does seem to be an impact.

看来确实有影响。

To say that there isn't is just me not being truthful about the data.

如果说不存在，那只是我对数据不诚实而已。

But again, if you think about the trade-off here, if you're going out or you're having friends over and you're going to make an incredible evening of memories, and you're going to open a favorite bottle of wine and have a couple of glasses of wine, is your sleep going to be compromised?

但同样，如果你考虑一下这里的权衡，如果你要出去或有朋友过来，你将度过一个令人难以置信的美好夜晚，并且你要打开一瓶最喜欢的葡萄酒并喝几杯葡萄酒，你的睡眠会受到影响吗？

Yes, it is.

是的。

But maybe that's worth the trade-off for that specific night.

但也许为了那个特定的夜晚而做出的权衡是值得的。

I would just not wish you to-- And you've spoken a lot, and so has our dear friend Peter Attia and others, there just doesn't seem to be any safe amount of alcohol.

我只是不希望你——你已经说了很多话，我们亲爱的朋友彼得·阿蒂亚和其他人也说了很多，似乎没有任何安全的酒精量。

But I would say think about that trade-off.

但我想说考虑一下这种权衡。

Simply, however, don't make it a habit that you're doing it multiple nights a week or more.

然而，简单地说，不要养成每周多个晚上或更长时间这样做的习惯。

That would probably be the advice.

这可能就是建议。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Great.

太棒了。

What about food and sleep?

饮食和睡眠怎么样？

How close to sleep is it okay to have a meal if you want to optimize your sleep?

如果您想优化睡眠，距离睡觉多久才可以吃饭？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I like to eat my final meal somewhere around 6:30 PM.

我喜欢在下午 6:30 左右吃最后一餐。

But I go to sleep somewhere around 8:30, 9:00 PM.

但我晚上 8:30、9:00 左右就会去某个地方睡觉。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In an ideal world.

在一个理想的世界里。

Sometimes I go to sleep a bit later.

有时我会晚一点睡觉。

Sometimes I eat a little bit later.

有时我会晚一点吃。

There's some variability with these.

这些有一些变化。

But put differently, what is the relationship between food intake and sleep quality in terms of timing of food intake?

但换句话来说，就食物摄入时间而言，食物摄入量与睡眠质量之间有何关系？

And then perhaps we can talk a little bit about food macronutrients.

然后也许我们可以谈谈食品常量营养素。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

It's very interesting.

这很有趣。

There was somewhat of a dogma out there that we have to stop eating three or four hours before bed for optimal sleep.

那里有一种教条，我们必须在睡前三四个小时停止进食才能获得最佳睡眠。

If you look at the data, the data is quite a spread, no pun intended.

如果你看一下数据，就会发现数据分布相当广泛，没有双关语的意思。

There are some people for whom that works very well, and if they eat even two hours before bed, they just get disrupted in terms of their sleep.

对于有些人来说，这种方法非常有效，即使他们在睡前两个小时吃东西，他们的睡眠也会受到干扰。

Some of that is about people just feeling too full and not feeling comfortable.

其中一些是因为人们感觉太饱并且感觉不舒服。

Other aspects are that when you become recumbent, when you lie down, you have a higher risk of gastric reflux coming back up, and therefore you get heartburn, and that's pretty miserable, and people will describe that too by way of closer proximity of food intake relative to when you're falling asleep.

其他方面是，当你躺着时，当你躺下时，胃反流复发的风险更高，因此你会感到胃灼热，这非常痛苦，人们也会通过相对于入睡时的食物摄入量更接近来描述这一点。

Nevertheless, if you look at the data, and I did a recent very deep dive on this personally myself about 12 months ago, it's not quite as extreme as the dogma makes out.

然而，如果你看一下数据，我自己在大约 12 个月前对这个问题进行了一次非常深入的研究，你会发现它并不像教条所描述的那么极端。

If you eat two hours before bed, on average, it doesn't seem to necessarily harm your sleep.

平均而言，如果您在睡前两小时进食，似乎并不一定会损害您的睡眠。

Now, that's very different than saying what is best to improve or enhance your sleep.

现在，这与说什么是改善或增强睡眠的最佳方法是非常不同的。

But the way these studies were designed, it was looking at detriments.

但这些研究的设计方式是着眼于损害。

They then went to 90 minutes before sleep onset, and even there, there didn't seem to be marked impairments.

然后他们在入睡前 90 分钟进行研究，即使在这段时间，似乎也没有出现明显的障碍。

Sixty minutes, you started to see maybe some signs, but on average, the effect size was somewhat weak.

六十分钟，你可能开始看到一些迹象，但平均而言，效果有点弱。

But then when you get close to sort of 45 minutes or so, then things did start to deteriorate.

但当接近 45 分钟左右时，情况确实开始恶化。

I think it depends hugely on your chronotype and also just on your appetite circadian rhythm preferences, too.

我认为这在很大程度上取决于您的生物钟类型，也取决于您的食欲、昼夜节律偏好。

I am someone who I do not feel very hungry when I first wake up in the morning.

我是一个早上起床后不觉得很饿的人。

I don't feel very hungry throughout most of the day.

我一整天大部分时间都不会感到很饿。

And I will onboard most of my calories probably in The hours probably in about a four-hour period, maybe less, even three-hour period, and then I will cut myself off about 90 minutes before sleep.

我可能会在大约四个小时内，也许更少，甚至三个小时内消耗掉大部分卡路里，然后我会在睡觉前大约 90 分钟切断自己的能量。

So classically, I would've been considered as violating this sleep dogma of cutting yourself off at least three hours.

因此，从传统意义上讲，我会被认为违反了至少三个小时的睡眠教条。

I think it's very personal, though.

不过，我认为这是非常个人化的。

Just experiment with it.

只是尝试一下。

You will know the situation.

你就会知道情况。

As for macros and specific food components, the data is a little bit mixed.

至于宏指令和特定食品成分，数据有点复杂。

Certainly what we know is that if you're eating a diet that is high in sugar and low in protein, your sleep is worse.

当然，我们知道，如果您的饮食中糖含量高、蛋白质含量低，您的睡眠质量就会更差。

Why would that be the case?

为什么会这样呢？

Well, one of the reasons that we think is that if you onboard sugar, it can be somewhat metabolically active, and when it becomes metabolically active, it can increase your body temperature, your core body temperature, even just very subtly, but that's enough to disrupt your sleep, as we spoke about with temperature.

好吧，我们认为的原因之一是，如果你吃糖，它可能会在一定程度上代谢活跃，当它变得代谢活跃时，它会提高你的体温，你的核心体温，即使只是非常微妙的，但这足以扰乱你的睡眠，正如我们谈到的温度一样。

But I think in terms of really what would be the ideal macronutrient and even micronutrient dietary recommendation that I would have for you, I don't think we have enough data yet above and beyond that statement.

但我认为，就我为您提供的理想的常量营养素甚至微量营养素饮食建议而言，我认为除了该声明之外，我们还没有足够的数据。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

I've experienced when I eat a very low carbohydrate diet, which I've experimented with in the past, maybe even full ketogenic diet for brief periods of time, although I'm an omnivore, so I eat meat and eggs, and I also eat starches, pastas, rice, et cetera.

我曾经经历过，当我吃非常低的碳水化合物饮食时，我过去曾尝试过，甚至可能短暂地吃全生酮饮食，尽管我是杂食动物，所以我吃肉和鸡蛋，也吃淀粉、面食、米饭等。

But we know based on beautiful work from, for example, Chris Palmer-

但我们知道，基于克里斯·帕尔默 (Chris Palmer) 等人的出色工作——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

from Harvard Medical School, who was a guest on this podcast.

来自哈佛医学院，他是这个播客的嘉宾。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah, I listened to that.

是的，我听了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

It was a great podcast.

这是一个很棒的播客。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Chris is spectacular and has advocated the exploration of ketogenic diets for the treatment of various psychiatric conditions.

克里斯非常出色，他提倡探索生酮饮食来治疗各种精神疾病。

Not all, but psychiatric conditions.

不是全部，而是精神疾病。

And it seems, and he agreed with me on this, that when people go on very low starch, very low carbohydrate diets, that sometimes they can experience a bit of hypomania.

看来，他同意我的观点，当人们坚持非常低淀粉、非常低碳水化合物的饮食时，有时他们会经历一点轻躁狂。

Some people can, and challenges with sleep.

有些人可以，并且对睡眠提出挑战。

And sometimes there are psychiatric reasons why people stay on those diets anyway, and then they have to do other things to encourage their sleep, either pharmacology or supplementation or some combination.

有时，出于精神原因，人们无论如何都要坚持这些饮食，然后他们必须采取其他措施来促进睡眠，无论是药物还是补充剂或某种组合。

But I can say anecdotally for myself, if I don't eat starches for an extended amount of time, a couple of days, I find it very hard to get quality sleep.

但我可以为自己说一件事，如果我长时间不吃淀粉类食物，几天，我发现很难获得高质量的睡眠。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

As indicated by sleep trackers, and just sleep latency to fall asleep is longer than it is, et cetera.

正如睡眠追踪器所表明的那样，入睡的潜伏期比实际要长，等等。

So I've opted to eat most of my carbohydrates later in the evening, which kind of violates every rule of eat your carbs early in the day.

所以我选择在晚上晚些时候吃大部分碳水化合物，这违反了每天早些时候吃碳水化合物的所有规则。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I think there are some data to support that eating carbohydrates early in the day may actually have certain benefits for weight maintenance or weight loss.

我认为有一些数据支持每天早些时候吃碳水化合物实际上可能对维持体重或减肥有一定的好处。

So I realize that, but those aren't my goals at the moment.

所以我意识到了这一点，但这些不是我目前的目标。

Weight maintenance, yes.

维持体重，是的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Weight loss, no. So I think I certainly feel after eating a dinner that has a bit more starch, pasta, rice, these things of that sort, and a little bit lower protein as opposed to the inverse, like eating a couple of-

减肥，不。所以我想我在吃了一顿含有更多淀粉、意大利面、米饭之类的东西以及蛋白质含量低一点的晚餐后肯定会有这样的感觉，而不是相反，比如吃一些——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

That's right.

没错。

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

rib eye steaks and a salad, but no starch, that my sleep is substantially better.

肋眼牛排和沙拉，但没有淀粉，这让我的睡眠好多了。

And I always attributed that to the relationship between some of the starches and the tryptophan/serotonin pathway.

我总是将其归因于某些淀粉与色氨酸/血清素途径之间的关系。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

There is some data on that with the carbohydrate intake in the evening, and of course, that tryptophan and that carbohydrate intake will contain the precursor ingredients to something else that we've spoken about, which is melatonin.

有一些关于晚上碳水化合物摄入量的数据，当然，色氨酸和碳水化合物摄入量将含有我们谈到的其他物质的前体成分，即褪黑激素。

And so that may actually help healthily boost that melatonin signal, and there's a little bit of data on that to support it, too.

因此，这实际上可能有助于健康地增强褪黑激素信号，并且也有一些数据支持它。

We also did a study where we were looking at night to night to night sleep and carbohydrate intake the next day, and it did seem to support what you're describing in terms of some of the carbohydrate benefits.

我们还做了一项研究，我们观察了每晚的睡眠和第二天的碳水化合物摄入量，它似乎确实支持你所描述的碳水化合物的一些好处。

We also found a strange result that was almost the opposite prediction that we made.

我们还发现了一个奇怪的结果，几乎与我们的预测相反。

Carbohydrate intake in the morning to equally help people wake up, and we were a little bit uncertain as to why, but we're going to go into more detail.

早上摄入碳水化合物同样可以帮助人们醒来，我们有点不确定为什么，但我们将进行更详细的介绍。

The reason that you mentioned the suggestion of not take on carbs in the evening is in part based on the evidence that your body's ability to dispose of sugar, and obviously when you're eating carbohydrate, you can have a higher spike of sugar.

您提到晚上不要摄入碳水化合物的建议的部分原因是有证据表明您的身体处理糖的能力，显然，当您吃碳水化合物时，您的糖含量可能会更高。

Now, that in part depends on what you're eating with that carbohydrate and also, of course, the nature of that carbohydrate, whether it's simple or whether it's complex, whether it's simple sugars versus complex more starchy carbohydrate.

现在，这在一定程度上取决于你吃的碳水化合物是什么，当然还有碳水化合物的性质，无论是简单的还是复杂的，无论是简单的糖还是复杂的淀粉类碳水化合物。

But the idea is that your body, even if you were to eat the same amount of carbohydrate in the morning, in the afternoon, or in the evening, same carbohydrate dose and type, but your body's ability to dispose of that without having excessive spikes of glucose is worse in the evening, better in the morning, i.e., if you're concerned about your blood sugar and your metabolic health, maybe that's what you should do.

但我们的想法是，即使你在早上、下午或晚上吃同样数量的碳水化合物，同样的碳水化合物剂量和类型，但你的身体在没有过量葡萄糖峰值的情况下处理这些碳水化合物的能力晚上会更差，早上会更好，也就是说，如果你担心你的血糖和代谢健康，也许这就是你应该做的。

I think that that data is unclear on the basis of if you are glycemic normal, meaning that you currently do not have signs of type two diabetes, or you're not pre-diabetic, then that may not necessarily be the case, and so I think that's why it could be ...

我认为该数据尚不清楚，因为您的血糖是否正常，这意味着您目前没有二型糖尿病的迹象，或者您不是糖尿病前期，那么情况可能不一定如此，所以我认为这可能是......

beneficial for you, and I know that you think deeply about that.

对你有利，我知道你对此有深入的思考。

And I've even been tracking blood sugar as well.

我什至还一直在追踪血糖。

I don't have any signs of that, but I'm just fascinated by some of that data and how it interacts with my sleep because I'm a sleep nerd.

我没有任何迹象表明这一点，但我只是对其中一些数据及其与我的睡眠的相互作用着迷，因为我是一个睡眠书呆子。

So I think right now we just don't have plentiful data to recommend a particular sleep, quote unquote, "diet" for improved optimization.

所以我认为现在我们没有足够的数据来推荐特定的睡眠，引用不引用的“饮食”来改进优化。

I would say, though, that we can be a little bit more relaxed about the timing of our food.

不过，我想说的是，我们可以在吃饭的时间上放松一点。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Earlier you mentioned caffeine, and caffeine is a topic that we get into substantial depth in episode three.

之前您提到了咖啡因，咖啡因是我们在第三集中深入探讨的一个话题。

But there and now, I will emphasize that caffeine is the most commonly used drug worldwide.

但此时此刻，我要强调咖啡因是全世界最常用的药物。

I think the statistic says that 90-plus percent of adults consume caffeinated beverages every day, which is remarkable.

我认为统计数据表明 90% 以上的成年人每天都会饮用含咖啡因的饮料，这非常了不起。

And a few years back, I recall there was an article in "The Economist" that charted the countries for which the caffeine consumption was highest, and way out on the peak it was almost triple or quadruple what the second-place country consumed each day was.

几年前，我记得《经济学人》上有一篇文章列出了咖啡因消费量最高的国家，在峰值时几乎是第二名国家每天消费量的三到四倍。

Can you guess the country that consumes the most caffeine?

你能猜出哪个国家消耗的咖啡因最多吗？

Could be tea, coffee, any form.

可以是茶、咖啡，任何形式。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

I'm going to suggest it's a Scandinavian country.

我建议这是一个斯堪的纳维亚国家。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No, but they're up there.

不，但他们就在那里。

It was Switzerland.

那是瑞士。

Now, I don't know if that's still the case, but apparently the Swiss-

现在，我不知道情况是否仍然如此，但显然瑞士-

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

The reason I went, I was thinking it was Switzerland, because I've seen the graph, and I was thinking it was Sweden.

我去的原因是，我以为那是瑞士，因为我看过图表，我以为那是瑞典。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

So apparently-

所以显然——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And it's Scandinavian.

这是斯堪的纳维亚风格。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And if I have that wrong-

如果我错了——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

You're welcome

不客气

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

certainly someone will put it in the comments on YouTube.

当然有人会把它放在 YouTube 的评论中。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

No, I'm sure you're right, and I'm wrong with Sweden.

不，我确信你是对的，但我对瑞典的看法是错的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But as I recall, the Swiss drink so much caffeine.

但据我记得，瑞士人喝了很多咖啡因。

They have a lot to think about.

他们有很多事情需要思考。

So I love caffeine.

所以我喜欢咖啡因。

I drink black coffee, black espresso, and yerba mate.

我喝黑咖啡、黑浓缩咖啡和马黛茶。

I love yerba mate.

我喜欢马黛茶。

I've been drinking it since I was a little one because of the Argentines in my family.

由于我家里有阿根廷人，我从小就开始喝它。

And I drink it in the early part of the day, typically a couple of hours after waking or so, I'll have my first sip of caffeine, and then I try to stop drinking caffeine somewhere around noon or 1:00 p.m.

我会在一天的早些时候喝咖啡，通常是在醒来后几个小时左右，我会喝第一口咖啡因，然后在中午或下午 1:00 左右尝试停止喝咖啡因。

Occasionally, I'll have a shot or two of espresso in the early afternoon if there's important work to be done and I need to do that.

有时，如果有重要的工作要做并且我需要这样做，我会在下午早些时候喝一两杯浓缩咖啡。

But I've noticed that even that can alter my sleep in ways that I don't like.

但我注意到，即使这样也会以我不喜欢的方式改变我的睡眠。

But that afternoon coffee, for some reason, tastes so much better than the morning coffee for me.

但出于某种原因，下午的咖啡对我来说比早上的咖啡味道好得多。

I don't know what it is.

我不知道那是什么。

So it's coffee, yerba mate packed early into the day, and a lot of it for me.

所以是咖啡、马黛茶，一大早就打包好了，给我准备了很多。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I have a high tolerance for it.

我对此的容忍度很高。

But then I let it taper.

但后来我让它逐渐变细。

Is that an optimal contour of caffeine intake?

这是咖啡因摄入量的最佳轮廓吗？

Would zero caffeine be better if someone's just really committed to sleep and they don't like caffeine?

如果有人真的致力于睡眠并且不喜欢咖啡因，那么零咖啡因会更好吗？

Would zero be better than any?

零会比任何都好吗？

And what about that afternoon coffee or tea containing caffeine?

那么下午喝咖啡或含有咖啡因的茶怎么样？

How disruptive is it for sleep?

它对睡眠的干扰有多大？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

So the profile that you describe, which is high peak early on, first thing when you wake up, and then tapering off nicely down into the early afternoon, ideal.

所以你所描述的情况是，在你醒来的第一件事就是早起达到高峰，然后在下午早些时候逐渐下降，这是理想的。

That sounds great to me.

这对我来说听起来很棒。

As for that afternoon coffee, it really depends again on when you are expecting to go to sleep.

至于下午的咖啡，这实际上又取决于您预计什么时候睡觉。

Now, for someone like you, I would say I would love to look at abstaining from that or just switching it out to, if you're using these pods or however you're brewing it, let's just switch it out and do an experiment for two weeks, and we will look to see how much is that afternoon coffee really impacting your sleep, and we'll track your sleep with some degree of high fidelity with a wearable.

现在，对于像你这样的人，我会说我很乐意考虑放弃它，或者只是将其切换为，如果你正在使用这些豆荚或如何冲泡它，让我们将其切换并进行两周的实验，我们将看看下午的咖啡到底对你的睡眠有多大影响，我们将通过可穿戴设备以某种程度的高保真度跟踪你的睡眠。

And let's test that hypothesis because you go to sleep quite early.

让我们检验一下这个假设，因为你睡得很早。

You are an early bird, maybe bordering on an extreme early bird.

你是一只早起的鸟儿，也许接近于一只极端早起的鸟儿。

And we'll speak about, or we have spoken about those different flavors of chronotype.

我们将谈论，或者我们已经谈论过那些不同风格的计时类型。

I would prefer you not to be having that caffeine in the afternoon based on how early you go to sleep.

我希望你不要在下午摄入咖啡因，具体取决于你睡觉的时间。

And I mention that preference because of what you described regarding your sleep maintenance insomnia.

我之所以提到这种偏好，是因为您描述了有关睡眠维持性失眠的情况。

One of the issues with caffeine is that not only can it make it more difficult for you to fall asleep, which you don't have, in part because if you're waking up quite frequently throughout the night and struggling to get back to sleep, you're going to be carrying a sleep debt into every night, and that debt continues to grow, and it's almost like compounding interest on a loan.

咖啡因的问题之一是，它不仅会让你更难入睡，而你却没有，部分原因是，如果你整夜频繁醒来并难以入睡，那么你每天晚上都会背负着睡眠债，而且这种债务会持续增加，几乎就像贷款的复利一样。

So you will not have a problem falling asleep.

所以你不会有入睡的问题。

In fact, sometimes the speed with which people fall asleep, and some of these sleep trackers will almost penalize you for falling asleep too quickly, is because in sleep science, in clinical sleep medicine, it should take you somewhere, a healthy sleep onset, five to 15, 20 minutes.

事实上，有时人们入睡的速度，以及其中一些睡眠追踪器几乎会因为你入睡太快而对你进行惩罚，因为在睡眠科学中，在临床睡眠医学中，它应该带你到某个地方，一个健康的睡眠开始，5到15、20分钟。

But if you put your head on the pillow and you turn off the light, and within a minute or so you're dead to the world and you're gone, exactly, I'm worried that you're, A, carrying a sleep debt.

但如果你把头放在枕头上，关掉灯，大约一分钟之内，你就对这个世界失去了知觉，然后你就消失了，确切地说，我担心你，A，背负着睡眠债。

Now, not necessarily, but I would like to explore it with you.

现在不一定，但我想和你一起探讨一下。

And then I would say, even if you can fall asleep fine, this factor of waking up in the middle of the night is also related to caffeine.

然后我想说，即使你能睡得很好，这个半夜醒来的因素也和咖啡因有关。

Why?

为什么？

Because caffeine not only can make it harder to fall asleep, not your problem, but it keeps you out of that deep sleep, and it puts you into a more shallow state of non-rapid eye movement sleep.

因为咖啡因不仅会让你更难入睡，这不是你的问题，而且它会让你无法进入深度睡眠，让你进入一种更浅的非快速眼动睡眠状态。

And when you are in the shallow state, it's, A, easier for you to be woken up, but B, and I think more of the problem It's harder for you to fall back asleep because your brain doesn't necessarily want to go back down into that deep sleep, and nor has it come up out of that deep sleep.

当你处于浅层状态时，A，你更容易被叫醒，但是B，我认为更多的问题是你很难重新入睡，因为你的大脑不一定想回到深度睡眠中，也没有从深度睡眠中醒来。

So you're not in that wonderful, glorious, thick, treacly sort of sleepy state when you wake up.

所以当你醒来时，你并没有处于那种美妙、光荣、浓稠、甜蜜的困倦状态。

You go to the restroom, you come back, and you just know, "Oh, this is going to be great.

你去洗手间，回来后你就知道，“哦，这会很棒。

As long as I can fumble my way back to my mattress, I'm going to be asleep within another two minutes going back to it." Whereas for you, you probably wake up and you feel pretty wide awake.

只要我能摸索着回到床垫上，再过两分钟我就能睡着了。”而对于你来说，你可能会醒来并且感觉很清醒。

I would like to see what happens when we negate that afternoon coffee on the frequency and the duration of those middle of the night awakenings for you.

我想看看当我们取消下午的咖啡时，你半夜醒来的频率和持续时间会发生什么。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

I'm definitely making the effort to avoid caffeine intake in the afternoon, and I think I'm already starting to see some of the positive benefits of doing that.

我肯定会在下午努力避免摄入咖啡因，而且我想我已经开始看到这样做的一些积极好处。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Great.

太棒了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

As evidenced by the days that I consume caffeine in the afternoon and experience the deficits.

我在下午摄入咖啡因并经历了赤字的日子就证明了这一点。

It's a real thing, and I believe you've gave out the numbers on a different podcast previously.

这是真实的事情，我相信您之前已经在不同的播客上给出了这些数字。

Talk a little bit about the metabolism of caffeine and maybe even some of the variations that exist between people in terms of the metabolic regulation of caffeine.

谈谈咖啡因的代谢，甚至可能讨论一下人与人之间在咖啡因代谢调节方面存在的一些差异。

So how long-- Let's say I drink a standard cup of coffee or a cup of espresso, and it has, gosh, I don't know, 150 milligrams of caffeine.

那么多久——假设我喝了一杯标准咖啡或一杯浓缩咖啡，天哪，我不知道，其中含有 150 毫克咖啡因。

Is that-

难道是——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

200?

200？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Could be-

可能是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

200

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

150, 200.

150、200。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, let's say 200 because-

是的，假设是 200，因为-

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

certainly, a barista these days is going to draw a beverage that's-

当然，现在的咖啡师会调制出一种饮料——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

They're going to over-index.

他们会过度索引。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

So let's say 200 milligrams, and somebody consumes that after lunch at 1:00 PM, and their bedtime is, let's make them more conventional than I, somewhere between 10:00 and 11:00 PM.

假设是 200 毫克，有人在下午 1:00 午餐后食用，他们的就寝时间是，让我们让他们比我更传统，在晚上 10:00 到 11:00 之间。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay, so they're about-

好吧，所以他们是关于——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Nine to 10 hours

九到十个小时

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

nine to 10 hours out from their bedtime.

距离就寝时间九到十个小时。

They're having a, quote, unquote, "nice, strong cup of coffee after lunch." What does that look like in terms of their biochemistry and impact on sleep?

他们正在喝，引用，不引用，“午餐后喝一杯美味的浓咖啡。”从生物化学和对睡眠的影响来看，它们是什么样的？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

So caffeine has something that we call a half-life of about five to six hours, meaning that after five to six hours, about 50% of that caffeine is still circulating in your bloodstream, and thus your brain.

因此，咖啡因的半衰期约为五到六个小时，这意味着五到六个小时后，大约 50% 的咖啡因仍在您的血液中循环，从而在您的大脑中循环。

That means that caffeine has a quarter life of somewhere between 10 to 12 hours.

这意味着咖啡因的四分之一寿命约为 10 至 12 小时。

Now, this is on average, and we'll come back to variations.

现在，这是平均值，我们将回到变化。

But think of it this way, if you're taking a cup of coffee, like you described there, at midday, and then you're going to bed at, let's say, 11:00 or midnight, that would be the equivalent, based on what I've just told you, the quarter life of getting yourself into bed, and just before you took yourself into bed, you swig a quarter of a cup of coffee and you hope for a good night of sleep.

但这样想吧，如果你在中午喝一杯咖啡，就像你所描述的那样，然后你要在 11:00 或午夜睡觉，那么根据我刚才告诉你的，上床睡觉的时间是四分之一的，而就在你上床睡觉之前，你喝了四分之一杯咖啡，你希望能睡个好觉。

And the chances are that it may not happen.

但这种情况很可能不会发生。

Now, again, that's a little bit hyperbolic as a statement, but just try to conceptualize it in that way.

现在，再一次，这作为一个陈述有点夸张，但尝试以这种方式概念化它。

You would never think about taking on a last quarter cup of coffee just before you put your eye mask on.

您永远不会想到在戴上眼罩之前喝最后四分之一杯咖啡。

But if-

但如果——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No, but I have some friends and somebody actually who works with the podcast team, and we'll go out to dinner as a team when we're on the road, and he'll order a big coffee right after a 9:00 PM dinner.

不，但我有一些朋友，还有一些实际上与播客团队合作的人，当我们在路上时，我们会作为一个团队一起出去吃晚饭，他会在晚上 9:00 晚餐后立即点一杯大咖啡。

And I'm just like, "Can you sleep on this?" He's like, "Oh, yeah, no problem."

我就想，“你能睡在这个吗？”他说：“哦，是的，没问题。”

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And that no problem is in part this I don't have an issue with falling asleep, but if we were to, based on the data, map their electrical brain activity, you would be able to see this reduction in the deep non-REM sleep.

没问题的部分原因是我对入睡没有问题，但如果我们根据数据绘制他们的大脑电活动图，你将能够看到深度非快速眼动睡眠的减少。

And it can reduce it, if you look at the data, somewhere between 15% to 20%.

如果你看一下数据，它可以减少 15% 到 20% 之间。

Now, for me to reduce your deep sleep by 15% to 20%, I would probably have to age you by about 20 to 22 years.

现在，如果我要让你的深度睡眠减少 15% 到 20%，我可能需要让你衰老大约 20 到 22 岁。

Or you could just do it every night with a late-night coffee should you wish.

或者，如果您愿意，您也可以每天晚上喝一杯深夜咖啡。

So again, and maybe we'll speak about this in later episodes, I have changed my mind on caffeine.

再说一遍，也许我们会在后面的剧集中讨论这一点，我已经改变了对咖啡因的看法。

I think morning caffeine use or coffee, I should say, being more specific, is fine because I think there are health benefits, and we can go into in subsequent episodes why coffee and the coffee bean itself can provide those benefits.

我认为早上喝咖啡因或咖啡，我应该说，更具体地说，很好，因为我认为对健康有好处，我们可以在后续的剧集中探讨为什么咖啡和咖啡豆本身可以提供这些好处。

So I've become a little bit more bullish on morning caffeine.

所以我变得更加看好早晨的咖啡因了。

But evening caffeine, I just think the data is just not supportive.

但是晚上喝咖啡，我只是认为数据并不支持。

Even if you are, and there are variations, and you were very astute in your question.

即使你是，而且存在差异，而且你的问题非常精明。

Some people, I said, on average, caffeine has a half-life of about five to six hours.

我说，有些人平均咖啡因的半衰期约为五到六个小时。

For some people, it's quicker, and for other people, it's slower.

对于某些人来说，它更快，而对于另一些人来说，它更慢。

Why is that?

这是为什么？

It's based on a gene, and we know the gene.

它基于基因，而我们知道该基因。

It's a gene that is part of a set of liver enzymes, and the gene is called the CYP1A2 gene.

该基因是一组肝酶的一部分，该基因称为 CYP1A2 基因。

And there are variations in that gene, what we call polymorphisms, and you can do these genetic tests that you can buy these kits, and they will probably tell you which you are.

该基因存在变异，我们称之为多态性，您可以进行这些基因测试，您可以购买这些套件，它们可能会告诉您您是谁。

Are you sensitive?

你敏感吗？

Are you not sensitive?

你不敏感吗？

You probably already know.

你可能已经知道了。

And so some people will not be as sensitive, and therefore they can have a more compressed timeframe of a half-life because it's moving out of their system in a quicker manner.

因此，有些人不会那么敏感，因此他们可以拥有更压缩的半衰期时间，因为它会以更快的方式从他们的系统中移出。

So again, I'm not trying to be scaremongering.

再说一遍，我并不是想危言耸听。

I think you can have coffee in the morning and you'll be just fine.

我想你早上喝杯咖啡就可以了。

That late-night coffee, I would like to see you obviate that if you are someone who's doing it.

如果你是深夜喝咖啡的人，我希望你能避免这种情况。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And the afternoon coffee sounds like a maybe only every once in a while and try and make it mostly decaf or decaf for that matter, if it's really just for the taste.

下午的咖啡听起来可能只是偶尔喝一次，如果真的只是为了味道的话，试着让它大部分不含咖啡因或不含咖啡因。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah, if it's just for the taste, go decaf.

是的，如果只是为了口味，那就脱咖啡因吧。

If it's not, I understand that in some ways, what I'm talking about is the ideal world, and drum roll, it turns out that most of us don't live in that.

如果不是，我明白，在某些方面，我所说的是理想的世界，鼓声响起，事实证明我们大多数人并不生活在那个世界里。

We live in this thing called the real world.

我们生活在这个叫做现实世界的地方。

And so if you are facing a circumstance where if you're under pressure at work or if you're a high-performing athlete, and this is it, this is the event, it's all or nothing Understand that you are going to sacrifice some sleep at night, but maybe that sacrifice is well worth it.

因此，如果您面临这样的情况，如果您在工作中面临压力，或者如果您是一名表现出色的运动员，那么就是这样，这就是事件，全有或全无，请理解您将牺牲晚上的一些睡眠，但也许这种牺牲是值得的。

So again, I'm very open-minded.

再说一遍，我的思想非常开放。

I'm not trying to be simply too rigid with this.

我并不是想对此过于严格。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I want to take a brief break and acknowledge our sponsor, InsideTracker.

我想短暂休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 InsideTracker。

InsideTracker is a personalized nutrition platform that analyzes data from your blood and DNA to help you better understand your body and help you reach your health goals.

InsideTracker 是一个个性化营养平台，可分析您的血液和 DNA 数据，帮助您更好地了解您的身体并帮助您实现健康目标。

Now, I've long been a believer in getting regular blood work done for the simple reason that many of the factors that impact your immediate and long-term health can only be analyzed from a quality blood test.

现在，我长期以来一直相信定期进行血液检查，原因很简单，影响您当前和长期健康的许多因素只能通过高质量的血液测试来分析。

The problem with a lot of blood tests out there, however, is that you get information back about metabolic factors, hormones, et cetera, but you don't know what to do with that information.

然而，大量血液测试的问题在于，您得到有关代谢因素、激素等的信息，但您不知道如何处理这些信息。

With InsideTracker, they make it very easy to understand your results, and they also point you to specific directives that you can follow in the realm of nutrition, exercise, supplementation, even prescription drugs that can help bring the levels back into the ranges that are optimal for you.

借助 InsideTracker，您可以轻松了解您的结果，并且还为您提供在营养、锻炼、补充剂甚至处方药领域可以遵循的具体指示，以帮助将水平恢复到最适合您的范围。

InsideTracker also offers InsideTracker Pro, which enables coaches and health professionals to provide premium and personalized services by leveraging InsideTracker's analysis and recommendations with their clients.

InsideTracker 还提供 InsideTracker Pro，使教练和健康专业人员能够利用 InsideTracker 的分析和向客户提供的建议来提供优质和个性化的服务。

If you'd like to try InsideTracker, you can go to insidetracker.com/huberman to get 20% off any of InsideTracker's plans.

如果您想尝试 InsideTracker，您可以访问 insidetracker.com/huberman，享受任何 InsideTracker 计划 20% 的折扣。

Again, that's insidetracker.com/huberman.

同样，这是 insidetracker.com/huberman。

So you've talked about alcohol and its effects on sleep.

您谈到了酒精及其对睡眠的影响。

You've talked about caffeine and its effects on sleep.

您谈到了咖啡因及其对睡眠的影响。

And we talked about food and its effects on sleep.

我们讨论了食物及其对睡眠的影响。

What about THC and CBD?

THC 和 CBD 怎么样？

Sometimes referred to more generally as cannabis.

有时更普遍地称为大麻。

And it's interesting.

这很有趣。

Gosh, when I was growing up, cannabis was illegal.

天哪，当我长大的时候，大麻是非法的。

Nowadays, it's either legal or tolerated or decriminalized in many places, not all.

如今，在许多地方（但并非全部），这种行为要么是合法的，要么是被容忍的，或者是非刑事化的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But I would say there's been a tide shift in terms of cannabis, meaning that many people consume cannabis who are consuming it legally, and consume it for a lot of reasons that other people consume alcohol.

但我想说，大麻方面已经发生了潮流转变，这意味着许多人合法地消费大麻，并且出于其他人饮酒的很多原因而消费大麻。

In a sedative effect, a slight hypnotic effect.

有镇静作用，有轻微催眠作用。

I mean, the actual definition of what these drugs do, it goes by certain terms in the psychiatric literature, of course.

我的意思是，这些药物作用的实际定义当然是采用精神病学文献中的某些术语。

But in order to, quote-unquote, "mellow out," to feel more relaxed, to reduce their anxiety.

但为了让自己“变得成熟”，感觉更放松，减少焦虑。

It's far and away different than when I was growing up, where you would get into a lot of trouble if you were-

这和我小时候的情况大不相同，如果你——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Oh, yeah

哦，是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

caught smoking a joint or taking a bong rip in the middle of the day.

被发现在中午抽烟或吸烟枪。

And I realize most people aren't doing that at work.

我意识到大多数人在工作中并没有这样做。

I guess it depends on where you work.

我想这取决于你在哪里工作。

But edibles, tinctures.

但是食物，酊剂。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I mean, the consumption of THC and CBD is quite-

我的意思是，THC 和 CBD 的消耗量相当-

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

It's non-trivial.

这可不是小事。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

quite robust in a lot of places.

在很多地方都非常强大。

So with all the issues of legality and the fact that young people should not be consuming them, people 18 and younger, not just for legal reasons, but their brain is still developing.

因此，考虑到所有合法性问题以及年轻人不应该食用它们的事实，18 岁及以下的人，不仅仅是出于法律原因，而且他们的大脑仍在发育。

What is the story with THC, CBD, cannabis, edible, smoked, tinctures on sleep specifically?

THC、CBD、大麻、食用大麻、烟熏大麻、睡眠酊剂的具体情况如何？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

It's very interesting if you look firstly at the motivational reasons why people use cannabis.

如果你首先看看人们使用大麻的动机，就会发现这是非常有趣的。

Based on the published study, somewhere in the top two reasons, sleep.

根据已发表的研究，最重要的两个原因是睡眠。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

To fall and stay asleep.

入睡并保持睡眠状态。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

To fall asleep and stay asleep.

入睡并保持睡眠状态。

Obviously, usually the principal first reason is just to get high and have the experience and the pleasure of being high, if that's what sort of floats your-

显然，通常首要的原因只是为了获得兴奋感并获得兴奋的体验和乐趣，如果这就是你的——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Pleasure

快乐

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

floats your train.

让你的火车漂浮起来。

But certainly it's sleep and what we call a hypnotic to put you asleep from the Greek derivative of the God for sleep.

但肯定是睡眠，我们称之为催眠药，它来自希腊语“上帝”的衍生词，意为“睡眠”。

That is high among the reasons that people will use.

这是人们使用的主要原因之一。

We currently don't recommend it, and here is why.

我们目前不推荐它，原因如下。

Certainly THC helps you fall asleep faster.

当然，THC 可以帮助您更快入睡。

Very clear in the data.

数据里写得很清楚。

The problem is that first you start to develop a tolerance, and to get that same sleep onset benefit, you need to use, I should say, a higher dose.

问题是，首先你开始产生耐受性，为了获得同样的入睡益处，我应该说，你需要使用更高的剂量。

So you start to develop dependency, and your dose regimen starts to increase.

因此，您开始产生依赖性，并且您的剂量方案开始增加。

The second issue with THC is that it's very good at blocking your dream sleep, your REM sleep.

THC 的第二个问题是它非常擅长阻止你的梦境睡眠，即快速眼动睡眠。

And in fact, many people when they come and they tell me, "Look, I was a heavy cannabis user, or even a light cannabis user for some time, and then I stopped using.

事实上，很多人来时告诉我，“看，我曾经是一名重度大麻使用者，甚至有一段时间是轻度大麻使用者，然后我就停止使用了。

And one of the strangest things happened to me.

最奇怪的事情之一发生在我身上。

I just started to have the most wild, vivid, crazy dreams, and I didn't know what was going on." And it's a very simple explanation.

我刚刚开始做最疯狂、最生动、最疯狂的梦，但我不知道发生了什么。”这是一个非常简单的解释。

As you've been using, your brain has been compromised in the amount of REM sleep it's been getting, and you've been building up, chronically, a REM sleep debt.

正如您一直在使用的那样，您的大脑所获得的快速眼动睡眠时间已经受到影响，并且您已经长期积累了快速眼动睡眠债务。

And your brain is smart in the sense that it does try to clock, to some degree, a counter of how much REM sleep you've lost.

从某种意义上说，你的大脑确实很聪明，它确实会在某种程度上尝试记录你失去的快速眼动睡眠时间。

And many people will say, "Yeah, I don't really remember my dreams when I'm using." But when they stop, the brain finally, because it's been cleansed of the thing that's the roadblock to REM sleep, not only do they go back to having the normal amount of REM sleep that people would have, they have that, plus they have what we call a REM sleep rebound, which is even more and more intense REM sleep, which leads to more intense dreaming.

很多人会说，“是的，我在使用时并不记得自己的梦想。”但当他们停止时，大脑最终会因为快速眼动睡眠的障碍而被清除，他们不仅会恢复正常的快速眼动睡眠时间，而且还会出现我们所说的快速眼动睡眠反弹，即越来越强烈的快速眼动睡眠，从而导致更强烈的梦境。

I suspect there's a lot of people who've had that experience listening if they have been users and they've stopped.

我怀疑很多人都有过这种倾听的经历，如果他们曾经是用户，但他们已经停止了。

So that's the second reason we don't advocate it.

所以这是我们不提倡的第二个原因。

The third reason is that when you stop using, you also go through a very vicious insomnia withdrawal syndrome.

第三个原因是，当你停止使用时，你也会经历一种非常恶性的失眠戒断综合症。

Often many people will do.

很多时候很多人都会这么做。

Now that depends on how much you've been using, for how long you've been using.

现在这取决于您使用了多少，使用了多长时间。

If you look at the data-- And by the way, part of the clinical diagnostic, the psychiatric diagnostic description of cannabis withdrawal is insomnia.

如果你看一下数据——顺便说一下，临床诊断的一部分，大麻戒断的精神病学诊断描述是失眠。

That's how reliable this insomnia problem is when you come off cannabis.

这就是当你戒掉大麻后失眠问题的可靠程度。

And if you look at the data, one of the main reasons that people relapse and start using cannabis again, even though they don't want to, is because they can't deal with the insomnia that withdrawal has given them.

如果你看一下数据，就会发现人们复发并再次开始使用大麻的主要原因之一，即使他们不想这样做，也是因为他们无法应对戒断带来的失眠。

So you don't want to get into that vicious cycle.

所以你不想陷入这种恶性循环。

Should you wish, again, it's your choice.

如果您愿意，这也是您的选择。

So THC, I think is not to be advised right now.

所以我认为现在不建议使用 THC。

CBD is interesting.

CBD 很有趣。

I don't think there's enough data yet for us to have a very strong opinion, but I can at least offer mine.

我认为还没有足够的数据让我们有非常强烈的意见，但我至少可以提供我的意见。

The data so far is a little bit mixed in what we call the effect size.

到目前为止的数据在我们所说的效应大小方面有点混合。

In other words, how reliable and how powerful is the benefit of CBD on sleep.

换句话说，CBD对睡眠的好处有多可靠、有多强大。

But it does seem to have some benefit.

但它似乎确实有一些好处。

What's interesting is that it doesn't seem to have the detriments that I just described for THC.

有趣的是，它似乎没有我刚才描述的 THC 的危害。

You've got to be looking at the data a little bit careful with CBD.

对于 CBD，你必须仔细查看数据。

It has what's called a U-shaped function to it, which is that if you're taking too little, and again, I really am so mindful of not trying to be, "Okay, here are the numbers," but if you look at them, I would say kind of cross your eyes, squint your eyes, maybe less than 25 milligrams, you run into the danger of CBD being wake promoting rather than sleep promoting.

它具有所谓的 U 形功能，也就是说，如果你服用的太少，我真的很注意不要试图成为“好吧，这是数字”，但如果你看它们，我会说有点斗鸡眼，眯起你的眼睛，也许少于 25 毫克，你就会遇到 CBD 促进清醒而不是促进睡眠的危险。

But once you get past, if you look-ish, 50 milligrams and above, then you start to go in the opposite direction, where it seems to be sleep promoting.

但一旦你超过了，如果你看起来差不多，50毫克及以上，那么你就开始朝相反的方向发展，这似乎是促进睡眠的。

And I mention that just because at least here in the United States and in many places in the world, that industry is not regulated, so it may say 50 milligrams on the bottle.

我提到这一点只是因为至少在美国和世界上许多地方，该行业不受监管，所以瓶子上可能会写着 50 毫克。

You don't really know.

你真的不知道。

Now, some of those companies will have what's called third-party laboratory testing, where they'll send it out, and you can scan a QRI code, and you can look at an independent laboratory that tested it and show you the purity of it.

现在，其中一些公司将进行所谓的第三方实验室测试，他们会将其发送出去，您可以扫描 QRI 代码，然后您可以查看对其进行测试的独立实验室，并向您展示其纯度。

So that may be one way to go.

所以这可能是一种方法。

So CBD, I think, has some favorable evidence right now.

所以我认为 CBD 现在有一些有利的证据。

If that's the case, let's just assume that you and I speak in another five years' time, and there's really good data now for this.

如果是这样的话，我们就假设你和我再过五年再谈，现在已经有很好的数据了。

What could be the mechanisms?

其机制可能是什么？

I think there's probably at least two, maybe three mechanisms.

我认为可能至少有两种，也许三种机制。

The first is an indirect mechanism.

第一个是间接机制。

CBD has been demonstrated very nicely in some fantastic studies to be an anxiolytic, which is a fancy term for saying it reduces down your anxiety.

一些出色的研究已经很好地证明了 CBD 是一种抗焦虑药，这是一个很奇特的术语，表示它可以减少你的焦虑。

And earlier, you and I discussed that anxiety and stress is one of the things that will keep you awake.

早些时候，你和我讨论过焦虑和压力是让你保持清醒的原因之一。

So indirectly, it removes this kind of gate that is preventing you from moving down the royal road of sleep.

因此，它间接地消除了这种阻止你走上睡眠皇家之路的大门。

And it opens back up the gate because it's removed that gate mechanism, which is high anxiety, and by way of being an anxiolytic, it's softened that anxiety, and it's easier for you to fall asleep.

它重新打开了大门，因为它消除了高度焦虑的大门机制，并且通过作为抗焦虑药，它减轻了焦虑，让你更容易入睡。

I think that's probably the principal mechanistic bet I would have right now.

我认为这可能是我现在的主要机械赌注。

Another indirect mechanism, if you look at some of the studies in rats, and we do human work at my sleep center, so we don't do animal studies, but if you look at the data in the rats, CBD can be hypothermic, which means that it drops your core body temperature.

另一个间接机制，如果你看一些老鼠的研究，我们在我的睡眠中心做人类工作，所以我们不做动物研究，但如果你看老鼠的数据，CBD 可能会降低体温，这意味着它会降低你的核心体温。

And just as we spoke about earlier in this episode, you need to drop your body temperature to get to sleep.

正如我们在本集前面提到的，您需要降低体温才能入睡。

So I think that's the second reason.

所以我认为这是第二个原因。

I think the third reason is that it could have a direct sleep-promoting mechanism.

我认为第三个原因是它可能具有直接的促进睡眠机制。

I think it's unclear right now exactly how it's interacting with the sleep machinery of the brain.

我认为现在还不清楚它是如何与大脑的睡眠机制相互作用的。

We've got some hypotheses.

我们有一些假设。

The danger is, again, it's just not a well-regulated substance.

危险再次在于，它不是一种受到良好监管的物质。

So I am actually just, full disclosure, I'm working with a company in the United Kingdom, in collaboration with King's College and the Institute of Psychiatry there to see if we can create an analog, a clean analog of CBD.

所以我实际上只是完全披露，我正在与英国的一家公司合作，与那里的国王学院和精神病学研究所合作，看看我们是否可以创建一个类似物，一个干净的 CBD 类似物。

But I think the potential upside of it, not just for sleep, but for a number of different psychiatric conditions like anxiety, could be beneficial.

但我认为它的潜在好处，不仅对于睡眠，而且对于焦虑等许多不同的精神疾病来说，都可能是有益的。

So I would say that that's right now the sort of the skinny on THC and CBD.

所以我想说，这就是目前 THC 和 CBD 的瘦身情况。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay, so just to make sure that I have the basic list of sleep hygiene factors correct, I have regularity is king.

好吧，为了确保我列出的基本睡眠卫生因素正确无误，规律性才是王道。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Light and dark, meaning that one should optimize or at least seek to optimize their exposure to light in the morning and throughout the day, and then in the evening to make things dim and dark.

光明和黑暗，意味着人们应该优化或至少寻求优化早上和全天的光照，然后在晚上使事物变得昏暗和黑暗。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Temperature, and there you have a little, it's not a mantra, but what is it?

温度，还有一点，这不是咒语，但它是什么？

It's warm up to cool down to fall asleep, and then it's stay cool, like Fonzie.

从热身到冷却到入睡，然后保持凉爽，就像方齐一样。

Stay cool to stay asleep.

保持凉爽才能入睡。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And then warm up to wake up.

然后热身醒过来。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

And we will come onto that, I think, in a little while again.

我想，稍后我们会再次讨论这个问题。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Then there's walk it out, which is, if I understand correctly, if you're trying to fall asleep or fall back asleep and it's taking you longer than about 20, 25 minutes, you should just get out of bed and go elsewhere in the house, do something else.

然后就是走出去，如果我理解正确的话，如果你想入睡或重新入睡，而你花费的时间超过了 20、25 分钟，你应该起床，去房子的其他地方，做点别的事情。

Maybe even lie down on a different surface in the house-

甚至可能躺在房子的不同表面上-

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

to try and see if you can sleep there.

试着看看你是否可以睡在那里。

But don't stay in bed.

但不要留在床上。

Don't create a paired association of wakefulness and your bed, because that can lead to problems in subsequent nights.

不要将清醒和你的床配对起来，因为这可能会导致接下来的夜晚出现问题。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

And I would only say that Try to resist if you can.

我只会说，如果可以的话，尝试抵抗。

If you really want your bedroom to be the place where you now become consistently asleep, try not to start sleeping in some other location consistently, because then all of a sudden you bond that with good sleep and you unbuckle this notion that we're trying to relearn, which is know your bedroom is the place of sleep.

如果你真的希望你的卧室成为你现在持续睡眠的地方，那就尽量不要开始一直在其他地方睡觉，因为这样你就会突然把它与良好的睡眠联系在一起，并且解开我们正在尝试重新学习的这个观念，即知道你的卧室是睡眠的地方。

So it's fine to go elsewhere.

所以去别的地方也好。

Try to stay awake and force yourself to stay awake until you are absolutely sleepy, then go back to bed.

尝试保持清醒并强迫自己保持清醒，直到完全困倦为止，然后再回到床上。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay, and then we discussed alcohol, food, caffeine, and THC/CBD, AKA cannabis.

好的，然后我们讨论了酒精、食物、咖啡因和 THC/CBD，又称大麻。

And with respect to alcohol, it's clear that none is best.

至于酒精，很明显没有一种是最好的。

If you're going to have some, you don't want to drink too early in the day, but you don't want to drink too much or too close to bedtime because it can disrupt rapid eye movement sleep.

如果你想喝点，你不想在一天中太早喝水，但你也不想喝太多或太接近睡前，因为它会扰乱快速眼动睡眠。

Food, it seems that creating some sort of buffer between your last bite of food and your to-bed time by somewhere between maybe two to three hours, but for some people it'll be more like 90 minutes, and of course that's going to depend on the size of the meal, et cetera.

食物，似乎在你最后一口食物和上床睡觉之间创造了某种缓冲时间，可能是两到三个小时，但对某些人来说，可能会是 90 分钟左右，当然，这取决于饭菜的多少，等等。

But eating a big meal and then going straight to bed, probably not a good idea.

但吃一顿大餐然后直接上床睡觉可能不是一个好主意。

Caffeine has this long half-life, so if you're going to indulge, which I do, do so early in the day.

咖啡因的半衰期很长，所以如果你想像我一样沉迷于咖啡因，请在一天的早些时候进行。

Beware the afternoon caffeine nap.

当心下午的咖啡因小睡。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah, do the Huberman Taper, is what I'm going to call it right now.

是的，做 Huberman Taper，我现在就这么称呼它。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

All right.

好吧。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Which is not an interpretive dance.

这不是一种解释性舞蹈。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There you go.

就这样吧。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

It's simply the caffeine taper.

这只是咖啡因的逐渐减少。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And then THC, CBD does nothing good for your sleep architecture, although some people have the impression that it is good for their sleep because it makes it easier for them to fall asleep.

然后，THC、CBD 对您的睡眠结构没有任何好处，尽管有些人认为这对他们的睡眠有好处，因为它使他们更容易入睡。

But what they are unaware of is that it is disrupting the quality and architecture of the different stages of sleep in ways that are not serving people well.

但他们没有意识到，它正在以一种不利于人们的方式破坏不同睡眠阶段的质量和结构。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

That seems to be the case for THC, and I think CBD has promise, and research must try harder, including my own.

THC 似乎就是这种情况，我认为 CBD 有希望，研究必须更加努力，包括我自己的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And you very kindly emphasized that you're not telling people what to do.

您非常善意地强调，您并不是在告诉人们该做什么。

They just should know what they're doing so that they can make changes if they so choose.

他们只应该知道自己在做什么，这样他们就可以根据自己的选择做出改变。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

That's right.

没错。

I would always say that I'm not trained to be a medical doctor.

我总是说我没有接受过成为一名医生的培训。

Any advice that I give is simply scientifically descriptive advice.

我给出的任何建议都只是科学描述性的建议。

It's not medically prescriptive, nor lifestyle prescriptive advice.

这不是医学规定，也不是生活方式规定建议。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm smiling because what I always say is, "I'm a scientist, not a physician, so I don't prescribe anything, but I profess lots of things." Or as my good friend who's a musician, Tim Armstrong, says, "I'm not a cop."

我微笑是因为我总是说：“我是一名科学家，不是医生，所以我不开任何处方，但我承认很多事情。”或者正如我的音乐家好友蒂姆·阿姆斯特朗所说，“我不是警察。”

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

That's right.

没错。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So do what you want.

所以，做你想做的吧。

Okay.

好的。

What a wonderful list to leap off into the unconventional and more advanced tools for sleep enhancement.

这是一个多么美妙的清单，可以跳入非传统和更先进的睡眠增强工具。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So let's go there.

那么我们就去那里吧。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

So I think many people may have heard of some of the conventional, but what about the unconventional?

所以我想很多人可能听说过一些常规的，但是非常规的呢？

I would probably offer five or six.

我可能会提供五到六个。

The first one I would say is that if you are struggling with sleep and you have had a bad night of sleep, the first recommendation is do nothing.

我要说的第一点是，如果您睡眠困难并且一夜睡眠不好，那么第一个建议就是什么也不做。

And what I mean by that is if you've had a bad night of sleep, you're awake for three hours, do not sleep in any later into the morning.

我的意思是，如果你一夜没睡，你醒了三个小时，不要睡到早上。

Do not go to bed any earlier.

不要太早睡觉。

Do not increase your caffeine intake to try to offset it, and do not nap during the day.

不要为了抵消咖啡因的摄入量而增加咖啡因的摄入量，也不要在白天小睡。

Why am I telling you those things?

我为什么要告诉你这些事情？

If you wake up later that following morning, your adenosine clock that we spoke about, this building up of sleepiness that happens when we wake up, is going to start later in the day.

如果你第二天早上起床较晚，我们所说的腺苷时钟，即我们醒来时产生的困意，将在当天晚些时候开始。

So when it comes time for you to fall asleep at what would then be the next night at your normal time, you're not going to feel as sleepy.

因此，当您在第二天晚上的正常时间入睡时，您就不会感到那么困了。

Why?

为什么？

Because you woke up that much later and you're setting yourself up for failure again.

因为你醒得太晚了，你又让自己陷入了失败。

Equally, don't go to bed any earlier.

同样，不要太早睡觉。

If you have become accustomed, and your brain has, and your circadian clock has become accustomed to going to bed at a certain time, and hopefully you're doing it regularly, then getting into bed two or three hours early has the danger, it's not a certainty, but a danger of you then getting into bed and thinking, "Well, I know I had a bad night of sleep last night, but I still can't fall asleep straight away." So now you're spending another 90 minutes in bed at the beginning because you've gone to bed 90 minutes earlier thinking it's a good idea to compensate.

如果你已经习惯了，你的大脑也已经习惯了，你的生物钟也已经习惯了在某个时间上床睡觉，并且希望你能定期这样做，那么提前两三个小时上床睡觉就有危险，这不是确定的，而是你上床后想的危险，“好吧，我知道我昨晚睡得不好，但我仍然无法立即入睡。”所以现在你一开始就在床上又花了 90 分钟，因为你提前 90 分钟上床睡觉，认为这是一个补偿的好主意。

Don't do that either.

也不要这样做。

Hold out even if you do feel tired.

即使您确实感到疲倦，也要坚持下去。

My recommendation would be after that bad night of sleep, hold out for as long as you can, as close to your natural bedtime as possible, then go to sleep and you'll give yourself highest chance of success.

我的建议是，在经历了糟糕的一夜睡眠之后，尽可能坚持下去，尽可能接近自然就寝时间，然后去睡觉，这样你成功的机会就最大。

Don't over-caffeinate.

不要摄入过量咖啡因。

That's the obvious one.

这是显而易见的。

Follow the beautiful Huberman Taper.

沿着美丽的休伯曼锥体 (Huberman Taper) 行驶。

And then obviously, try not to compensate with a nap.

显然，尽量不要用小睡来弥补。

Why?

为什么？

Because that nap, as happens when we sleep, is going to remove some of that sleepiness, that adenosine, and once again, you get into bed and you're not as sleepy as you would naturally be.

因为小睡，就像我们睡觉时发生的那样，会消除一些困倦和腺苷，然后你再一次上床睡觉，你就不会像自然状态那样困了。

So you again go through a bad night because you're struggling to sleep, or you wake up and you can't get back because you've got less weight of sleepiness on your shoulders due to the nap that happened earlier.

于是，你又经历了一个糟糕的夜晚，因为你很难入睡，或者你醒来后却无法再回来，因为之前的小睡让你肩上的睡意减轻了。

So I know it's hard, but I would say when the alarm goes off after a bad night, you just think, "I do not want to get up.

所以我知道这很难，但我想说，当闹钟在经历了一个糟糕的夜晚后响起时，你只会想，“我不想起床。

It's been such a rough night." I know it's a short-term gain, but trust me, it's a long-term loss because you're going to then just get into this vicious cycle.

这真是一个艰难的夜晚。”我知道这是短期收益，但相信我，这是长期损失，因为你将陷入这个恶性循环。

So that's the first unconventional tip.

这是第一个非常规技巧。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Can I just pause you for a second?

我可以让你暂停一下吗？

I'm a little wide-eyed over here because I did not know any of that.

我有点睁大眼睛，因为我对此一无所知。

Typically, if I get a poor night's sleep, I'll do whatever I can to recover that sleep.

通常，如果我晚上睡眠不好，我会尽我所能来恢复睡眠。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'll take a nap.

我会小睡一下。

I'll adjust my to-bed time the next evening.

第二天晚上我会调整就寝时间。

So I hope Everyone is paying careful attention to what Matt just said.

所以希望大家认真听听马特刚才说的话。

That's an important list because I think one of the very common things is for people to just not get a great night's sleep.

这是一个重要的清单，因为我认为最常见的事情之一就是人们无法睡个好觉。

And I think most people think, "Okay, I'll drink a little more caffeine.

我想大多数人都会想，“好吧，我会多喝一点咖啡因。

I will go to bed a little earlier tonight, maybe catch a nap in the afternoon," this kind of thing.

今晚我会早点睡觉，也许下午会小睡一下，”这种事情。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

And I would've thought that too, and maybe even suggested that.

我也会这么想，甚至可能会这么建议。

And if you listen to the first episode and where I list in a doomsday manner the things that can happen by way of a short night, you would think that that's what I would then recommend.

如果你听第一集，我以世界末日的方式列出了短暂的夜晚可能发生的事情，你会认为这就是我会推荐的。

But it was really imprinted on me by a wonderful sleep clinician, Michael Perlis, who sort of described some of these features and exactly the reasons underlying them, and I think I've just tried to bake that out into a formula that makes sense.

但这确实给我留下了深刻的印象，一位出色的睡眠临床医生迈克尔·佩里斯（Michael Perlis）描述了其中一些特征以及它们背后的确切原因，我想我只是试图将其转化为一个有意义的公式。

Again, it's not about the rule, it's about explaining it, because when you explain it, at first it sounds contradictory and paradoxical.

再说一次，这不是关于规则，而是关于解释它，因为当你解释它时，一开始听起来是矛盾和自相矛盾的。

When you understand it, it hopefully sounds logical and actionable.

当你理解它时，希望它听起来合乎逻辑且可操作。

So that would be the first suggestion.

这是第一个建议。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Could I just-

我可以-

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah, please

是的，请

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

sorry to interrupt again.

抱歉再次打扰。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

No, please.

不，请。

Of course.

当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

My audience hates when I interrupt, but I'm doing it on their behalf because I-

我的听众讨厌我打断，但我是代表他们这样做，因为我-

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Oh, I love it

哦，我喜欢它

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

because I like to think that there's some value in some of, at least what you say in response.

因为我喜欢认为其中一些内容有一定的价值，至少是你在回应中所说的。

I saw a really terrific post from Dr. Rhonda Patrick-

我看到朗达·帕特里克博士发来的一篇非常棒的帖子-

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Oh, she's great

哦，她很棒

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

who we both know and admire for her public health education work.

我们都认识并钦佩她的公共卫生教育工作。

And she described a study whereby if people are, I think it was slightly sleep deprived, maybe by a few hours, that some of the disruption to morning blood glucose regulation that is known to accompany partial sleep deprivation, and certainly complete sleep deprivation, but in this case partial sleep deprivation, could be offset by still exercising in the morning.

她描述了一项研究，如果人们有轻微的睡眠剥夺，可能是几个小时，那么已知伴随部分睡眠剥夺，当然是完全睡眠剥夺，对早晨血糖调节的一些干扰，但在这种情况下，部分睡眠剥夺可以通过早上仍然锻炼来抵消。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

That's right.

没错。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Which frankly, I have to say, if I haven't slept that well, then normally I'm like, "Oh, maybe today's the day I don't exercise." But now having heard that information, I make it a point to still exercise, sometimes with a little bit less intensity.

坦率地说，我不得不说，如果我睡得不好，那么通常我会想，“哦，也许今天是我不锻炼的一天。”但现在听到这些信息后，我仍然坚持锻炼，有时强度会稍低一些。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because I don't want to be completely exhausted in the afternoon and go to sleep at 4:00 PM or something, really disrupt my schedule.

因为我不想下午完全筋疲力尽，下午 4:00 就睡觉什么的，真的打乱了我的日程安排。

But I thought that was really interesting-

但我觉得这真的很有趣——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

It is

它是

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

because it's a sort of partial inoculation of the blood glucose disruption caused by sleep deprivation.

因为这是睡眠不足引起的血糖紊乱的部分接种。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

I'm so glad you brought it up.

我很高兴你提出来。

It's a fantastic study, and Rhonda and I, I think even tried to discuss it some years ago on a show.

这是一项很棒的研究，我想朗达和我几年前甚至试图在一个节目中讨论它。

But I like it because it does offer some degree of actionable hope and a strategy.

但我喜欢它，因为它确实提供了某种程度的可行的希望和策略。

Blood sugar, absolutely critical.

血糖，绝对关键。

It is very sensitive to sleep.

它对睡眠非常敏感。

When you don't get enough, it goes in bad directions.

当你得不到足够的东西时，事情就会朝着不好的方向发展。

You used a very specific word cleverly so, and that word was partially.

你巧妙地使用了一个非常具体的词，这个词是部分的。

At first you hear or read that study, and Rhonda was never suggesting this too, I'm not saying that.

起初你听到或读到这项研究，朗达也从未提出过这一点，我不是这么说的。

You think, well, if it offsets blood sugar, and the study was saying exercise can nullify a lack of sleep, you conflate that single outcome benefit with the idea that, well, but maybe it doesn't actually compensate for the deficits in immune function or cardiovascular disease concerns, or my hormonal health or my learning and memory, or my emotional and brain health.

你想，好吧，如果它可以抵消血糖，并且研究表明运动可以消除睡眠不足，那么你会将单一结果益处与这样的想法混为一谈：好吧，但也许它实际上并不能弥补免疫功能或心血管疾病问题，或我的荷尔蒙健康或我的学习和记忆，或我的情绪和大脑健康方面的缺陷。

Maybe it does, but maybe it doesn't.

也许会，但也许不会。

So I think I would always just caution people to saying, when you hear a study like that, it's very natural to think, oh, that must mean that it translates to everything else in my body and everything else in my brain.

所以我想我总是会提醒人们说，当你听到这样的研究时，很自然地会想，哦，这一定意味着它会转化为我身体中的其他一切和我大脑中的其他一切。

It may, but it also may not be.

可能是这样，但也可能不是。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Terrific.

太棒了。

So if you don't sleep that well, do your best to still get some exercise, but just-

所以，如果你睡得不好，还是尽力做些运动，但只是——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

be mindful of the fact that, in the winter months especially, if you go too hard in the gym or on a run, you might be a little bit immune compromised.

请注意，尤其是在冬季，如果您在健身房或跑步时太过用力，您的免疫力可能会受到一些损害。

Just be mindful of the fact that you're a more vulnerable being when you're sleep deprived, but that exercise can help adjust things in the right direction.

请记住，当您睡眠不足时，您会变得更加脆弱，但锻炼可以帮助您将事情调整到正确的方向。

And if it's early in the day, presumably that's not going to disrupt the proper bedtime.

如果是在一天的早些时候，想必这不会扰乱正常的就寝时间。

And if it's later in the day, I suppose as long as you don't need caffeine in order to do that exercise, and/or if you're familiar with exercising later in the day, fine.

如果是在当天晚些时候，我想只要您不需要咖啡因来进行锻炼，和/或如果您熟悉当天晚些时候的锻炼，那就可以了。

I find if I exercise, I'm not one of these people that can go for a run at seven o'clock at night and then just shower and go to sleep.

我发现如果我锻炼的话，我就不是那种可以在晚上七点跑步然后洗澡然后睡觉的人。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Well, it's because you're a morning type.

嗯，那是因为你是早起型的人。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because I'm a morning type.

因为我是早起型的人。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Correct.

正确。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Other people can.

其他人可以。

Okay.

好的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We'll get into exercise a bit more in a later episode.

我们将在稍后的节目中进行更多的锻炼。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

We should do.

我们应该做。

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We'll be sure to do that, but nonetheless, just raised that now.

我们一定会这样做，但尽管如此，现在才提出来。

So what are some of the other unconventional protocols for sleep?

那么还有哪些其他非常规的睡眠方案呢？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

So I think other suggestions I would have after do nothing would be try to think about limiting your time in bed.

所以我认为在什么都不做之后我会提出的其他建议是尝试考虑限制你在床上的时间。

If you are struggling with sleep, this is something that is used in probably the most well-validated psychological intervention for insomnia, and it's called cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia, or CBTI for short.

如果您在睡眠方面遇到困难，这可能是最有效的失眠心理干预方法，它被称为失眠认知行为疗法，简称 CBTI。

What happens is that you work with a clinician, they interview you, they assess all of the reasons that you may not be sleeping, and then they create, from their toolbox of many different options, a bespoke tailored sort of Savile Row suit prescription for you for your treatment.

发生的情况是，您与临床医生合作，他们会采访您，评估您可能无法入睡的所有原因，然后他们从许多不同选项的工具箱中为您量身定制萨维尔街套装处方以进行治疗。

If you look at the studies of that collection of different tools in the CBTI box for intervention of insomnia, and you ask, of all of those, which seems to carry the greatest impact on insomnia, which has the greatest sort of gravitas?

如果您查看 CBTI 盒子中用于干预失眠的不同工具的研究，您会问，在所有这些工具中，哪一个似乎对失眠的影响最大，哪一个具有最大的庄严性？

It seems to be this thing that we call bedtime rescheduling.

这似乎就是我们所说的就寝时间重新安排。

It used to be known as sleep restriction therapy, but obviously if you come to me and you say, "Look I am not sleeping very well.

它曾经被称为睡眠限制疗法，但显然如果你来找我并说：“看我睡得不太好。

I've got insomnia." I say, "I understand, and I've got a treatment for you.

我失眠了。”我说：“我明白，我已经为你找到了治疗方法。

It's called sleep restriction therapy." And you say, "No, no, no, you didn't understand.

这就是所谓的睡眠限制疗法。”你说：“不，不，不，你不明白。

I'm not getting enough sleep." But it's not quite that.

我睡眠不足。”但事实并非如此。

Here's how it works.

这是它的工作原理。

If you are spending so much time in bed, too much time in bed, you are not forcing your brain to be efficient.

如果你在床上花费了太多的时间，太多的时间在床上，你就没有强迫你的大脑变得高效。

And by way of constraining your sleep window, even to, let's say, five hours a night to begin with, I brute force ruthless efficiency from your sleeping brain after several days.

通过限制你的睡眠时间，甚至可以说是每晚五个小时，我会在几天后从你睡眠的大脑中强制提高你的睡眠效率。

So another analogy would be, let's say you're trying to make a nice thin crust of pizza base, and you put the dough on the table, and you start rolling it out.

所以另一个类比是，假设你正在尝试制作一个漂亮的薄饼皮，然后将面团放在桌子上，然后开始将其擀开。

If you roll it too thin, it starts to get gaps and holes in it.

如果你把它卷得太薄，它就会开始出现间隙和孔。

Why?

为什么？

Because you've spread it out too far, and you've started to create these absences.

因为你把它分散得太远，并且你已经开始制造这些缺席。

That's the same thing that happens, and it's very natural.

同样的事情也会发生，而且很自然。

As an insomnia patient, you would say, "I'm just not getting enough sleep, so I'm going to start spending more time in bed." It's the very worst idea.

作为一名失眠患者，你可能会说：“我只是睡眠不足，所以我要开始花更多时间躺在床上。”这是最糟糕的主意。

Another way would be to say, look, I go to the gym, and I spend about an hour and a half working out.

另一种说法是，看，我去健身房，花了大约一个半小时锻炼。

But if I were to videotape you, a lot of people are doing the, I think I've coined it as your phrase, but the 11th rep, where people-

但如果我给你录像，很多人都在做，我想我已经创造了它作为你的短语，但是第 11 次代表，人们-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The selfie

自拍

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

do the 10 reps, and then all of a sudden, there's the selfie or there's the social media.

重复 10 次，然后突然出现自拍或社交媒体。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Oh, yeah, the texting.

哦，对了，短信。

They finish the last rep, put it down, and then-

他们完成最后一次动作，放下它，然后——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And straight away on the text

并直接在文字上

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

immediately to their phone.

立即拨打他们的电话。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And if you look, they're only working out for about, let's say, 45 minutes, and the other is wasted.

如果你仔细观察，你会发现他们只锻炼了大约 45 分钟，其他时间都被浪费了。

So what if the next day you came to the gym, and I said, "Look, I'm sorry," and there are some big bouncer guys at the door.

如果第二天你来到健身房，我说：“听着，对不起”，门口就有一些大块头的保镖，那又怎么样呢？

"You are only allowed to work out for 40 minutes, and then we're going to eject you." And the first day, you go back, and you do the same thing.

“你只能锻炼40分钟，然后我们就会驱逐你。”第一天，你回去，做同样的事情。

And then you've only got through 30% of your workout.

然后你只完成了 30% 的锻炼。

So you get booted.

所以你会被引导。

The next day, you come back, and you do a little bit more, and you get booted again.

第二天，你回来了，你做了更多的事情，然后你又被启动了。

After about five or six days, you've built up such a strong desire and hunger to get your workout in.

大约五六天后，您就会产生如此强烈的锻炼欲望和饥饿感。

You walk in, you put your phone on silent, you put it over in the corner, and you just get to it.

你走进去，把手机调成静音，然后把它放在角落里，然后就可以使用了。

And that's the same thing that we're trying to do with sleep restriction therapy.

这与我们尝试通过睡眠限制疗法做的事情是一样的。

So you have to be a little bit careful.

所以你必须要小心一些。

Do it under supervision, especially if you're driving or you're operating heavy machinery.

请在监督下进行，尤其是在您驾驶或操作重型机械时。

We just want to keep an eye.

我们只是想密切关注。

It's not necessarily a big concern, but we would say, "Okay, Andrew, you're currently spending almost total about eight-ish or seven and a half hours in bed.

这不一定是一个大问题，但我们会说，“好吧，安德鲁，你目前几乎总共在床上度过了大约八个或七个半小时。

Tonight, I'm going to restrict you down to five hours a night, and we're going to do this for the next week." And the way that we normally do it is I don't change your wake-up time.

今晚，我将把你的工作时间限制在每晚五个小时，我们将在下周这样做。”我们通常的做法是我不会改变你的起床时间。

I change your to-bed time.

我改变你的就寝时间。

Why?

为什么？

It's easier to stay awake longer than it is to wake up earlier.

长时间保持清醒比早起更容易。

So I put it on the front end, the compromise.

所以我把它放在前端，妥协。

And at first, things don't change.

一开始，事情并没有改变。

But after maybe about four or five days of going through this, I build up enough of a short-term debt in your system that your system all of a sudden thinks, "Gosh, I just cannot be as lazy anymore.

但大约经历了四五天之后，我在你的系统中积累了足够的短期债务，你的系统突然想，“天哪，我不能再那么懒了。

I can't do this thing of waking up in the middle of the night and spending an hour and a half awake.

我不能做这种半夜醒来并醒一个半小时的事情。

I don't have the choice anymore.

我已经没有选择了

There's so much physiological buildup and pressure to do this." And gradually, what happens is that you sleep longer.

这样做需要太多的生理积累和压力。”渐渐地，你的睡眠时间会变长。

You don't wake up as much.

你醒得不那么频繁了。

And after maybe about two weeks of doing this, all of a sudden, you go to bed at this later time.

这样做大约两周后，突然间，你会在这个较晚的时间上床睡觉。

So for you, let's say you normally go to bed at 8:00, I'm going to have you go to bed at maybe 10:30, 11:00, but we're still going to have you wake up at that 4:30 AM mark that you would normally wake up.

因此，对于您来说，假设您通常在 8:00 睡觉，我会让您在 10:30、11:00 睡觉，但我们仍然会让您在您通常会起床的凌晨 4:30 起床。

And all of a sudden, you go to bed at 10:30, 11:00.

突然间，你在 10:30、11:00 上床睡觉。

You're out like a light.

你就像一盏灯一样消失了。

And then again, the next thing you remember is your alarm going off saying, "I'm sorry, you've got to wake up." And what happens by way of that reset is gradually we will then, once you're stable, we will start to back it off.

然后，你记得的下一件事就是闹钟响起，说：“对不起，你必须起床了。”通过重置，我们将逐渐发生什么，一旦你稳定下来，我们将开始取消它。

We'll start to have you go to bed at 10:00.

我们将在 10:00 开始让您上床睡觉。

And if it stays stable, then 9:45, then 9:30, and titrate you back to where you were.

如果它保持稳定，那么 9:45，然后 9:30，然后滴定到原来的水平。

And if there's any sign that you're starting to not sleep well, we zip it back up again.

如果有任何迹象表明您开始睡不好，我们会再次拉上拉链。

The goal here is, in some ways, almost like hitting the reset button on your Wi-Fi router.

从某些方面来说，这里的目标几乎就像按下 Wi-Fi 路由器上的重置按钮一样。

I'm trying to retrain your brain to better sleep because when you are not sleeping well you've lost your confidence in your ability to sleep.

我正在尝试重新训练你的大脑以更好地睡眠，因为当你睡得不好时，你就会对自己的睡眠能力失去信心。

And when I do this technique with you, gradually your system and you cognitively relearn that you are a good sleeper and you can trust in sleep.

当我和你一起做这个技巧时，你的系统和你的认知会逐渐重新认识到你是一个很好的睡眠者，你可以相信睡眠。

And now your sleep does not control you.

现在你的睡眠不再控制你了。

You control your sleep.

你控制你的睡眠。

The hard part, however, is that it's not easy to go through, and we have to usually ask two questions with individuals.

然而，困难的部分是，这并不容易完成，我们通常必须向个人提出两个问题。

Firstly, what is your motivation for better sleep?

首先，您改善睡眠的动机是什么？

We need to know that you really are motivated.

我们需要知道您确实有动力。

And then second, you just stay with a high-touch, white-glove frequency, checking in on individuals and motivating them to keep going because it's very easy to fall off the wagon.

其次，你只需保持高接触、白手套的频率，检查个人并激励他们继续前进，因为很容易掉队。

So that's the next suggestion, sleep restriction therapy or bedtime rescheduling, as we would call it.

这就是下一个建议，即我们所说的睡眠限制疗法或就寝时间重新安排。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You said it's difficult for people to go through.

你说，人是很难经历的。

It takes a little bit of rigor, a little bit of attention, means in some cases getting less sleep than one would like.

这需要一点点严格，一点点关注，在某些情况下意味着睡眠比人们想要的要少。

But as compared to something that sadly I've experienced a lot in my life of having challenges with sleep and trying to get things back in order and looking at the bed and just going, "Oh, yeah, the battleground."

但与我一生中经历过的很多事情相比，我在睡眠方面遇到了挑战，试图让一切恢复正常，看着床，然后说，“哦，是的，战场。”

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Battleground.

战场。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I think it makes a lot of sense, and I love the analogy to the gym.

我认为这很有意义，而且我喜欢用健身房做类比。

Somehow, if there's a restriction to one hour in and out the door, or maybe 70 minutes in and out the door because you need to put your stuff in a locker or something like that, it always, at least for me, gets done best When you just have those constraints.

不知何故，如果限制进出门一小时，或者进出门 70 分钟，因为你需要把东西放在储物柜或类似的东西里，那么至少对我来说，当你有这些限制时，总是做得最好。

I think there's something about the human brain that we don't do well in unrestrained systems, that I really think guardrails are fantastic.

我认为人类大脑中有些东西我们在不受约束的系统中表现不佳，我真的认为护栏非常棒。

I love deadlines, for instance.

例如，我喜欢截止日期。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Discipline-

纪律-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah

是啊

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

is essentially the-

本质上是-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Hard deadlines.

严格的期限。

Or as they say in academia, because we write grants all the time, drop deadlines.

或者正如学术界所说，因为我们一直在写拨款，所以就放弃了最后期限。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Which, who made up that term?

哪个，谁发明了这个词？

But if you don't make it, that's it.

但如果你没能做到，那就这样吧。

There isn't a, "Hey, I'll send this in tomorrow."

不会有“嘿，我明天把这个寄过来”之类的话。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

It's gone.

它消失了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

5:00 PM Pacific Time, that website closes, and you better have your-

太平洋时间下午 5:00，该网站关闭，您最好-

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And boy, do you get things done all of a sudden.

男孩，你会突然把事情做好吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's amazing.

太棒了。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

It's surprising how much distraction you can pull out the noise and focus on the signal.

令人惊讶的是，您可以消除噪音并专注于信号。

It's a great signal-to-noise ratio.

这是一个很好的信噪比。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

And I love the idea that one can control their sleep as opposed to sleep controlling them.

我喜欢这样一个想法：一个人可以控制自己的睡眠，而不是睡眠控制他们。

I think that that's-- And this notion of sleep confidence.

我认为这就是睡眠信心的概念。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

One's confidence in their ability to sleep.

一个人对自己睡眠能力的信心。

These are important terms, and they're more than just terms, because I think that a field and an area of health practice and, gosh, what's more important than sleep?

这些都是重要的术语，而且它们不仅仅是术语，因为我认为健康实践的一个领域和一个领域，天哪，还有什么比睡眠更重要的呢？

It's the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance, period.

它是心理健康、身体健康和表现的基础。

Really thrives on a common nomenclature.

真正在通用命名法上蓬勃发展。

And I really appreciate that you're peppering these episodes with new nomenclature that captures a lot of the essence of the protocols and the mechanisms.

我真的很感激你们用新的术语来充实这些情节，这些术语捕捉了协议和机制的许多本质。

So there, that's my editorial.

这就是我的社论。

Please continue.

请继续。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

I would say that in terms of other things, maybe just to go through them a little more quickly, we've spoken some about a wind-down routine.

我想说的是，就其他事情而言，也许只是为了更快地讨论一下，我们已经讨论了一些关于放松程序的内容。

Most people underappreciate the importance of a wind-down routine.

大多数人都低估了放松习惯的重要性。

We often think that sleep is like a light bulb, that we dive into bed, we switch off the light bulb, and sleep should appear just as quickly.

我们常常认为睡眠就像一个灯泡，我们一头扎进床上，关掉灯泡，睡眠应该很快就会出现。

It's untrue.

这是不真实的。

Sleep, in terms of a process, is much more physiologically like trying to land a plane.

就过程而言，睡眠在生理上更像是试图降落飞机。

It just takes time to come down onto the terra firma of good sleep at night.

只是需要时间才能进入晚上良好睡眠的土地。

Whatever it is you enjoy as a relaxation method, engage in it.

无论你喜欢什么放松方式，都要参与其中。

Could be listening to a podcast, could be reading a book.

可能正在听播客，可能正在看书。

Maybe it's a meditation, it's light stretching.

也许这是一种冥想，一种轻微的伸展运动。

Maybe whatever it is that you do, just build it into your regimen.

也许无论你做什么，只要将其纳入你的养生之道即可。

You would never be driving down the road and then pull into your garage at the same 40 mile an hour speed.

您永远不会沿着路行驶，然后以同样的 40 英里/小时的速度驶入车库。

You gradually decelerate, and you come to a stop.

你逐渐减速，然后停了下来。

It's the same thing with sleep, so you need to find some way to decelerate, and we've spoken about methods already as to how to do that.

睡眠也是如此，所以你需要找到某种方法来减速，我们已经讨论过如何做到这一点的方法。

The next tip is a little quirky and funny.

下一个技巧有点古怪和有趣。

Do not count sheep.

不要数羊。

There's a great study from my colleague, Dr. Allison Harvey at UC Berkeley, and she put this to the test.

我的同事、加州大学伯克利分校的艾莉森·哈维博士进行了一项出色的研究，她对此进行了测试。

Didn't make people fall asleep faster.

并没有让人更快入睡。

It made them take longer to fall asleep.

这使得他们需要更长的时间才能入睡。

However, she did find an alternative.

然而，她确实找到了替代方案。

If you are not into meditation or podcasts or sleep stories or whatever it is that you wish for, try taking yourself on a mental walk, and it has to be a walk that you know very well.

如果你不喜欢冥想、播客、睡眠故事或任何你想要的东西，试着让自己进行一次精神漫步，而且它必须是你非常熟悉的一次散步。

So let's say that you walk your dog every day, and you know there's a couple of walks that you take with your dog.

假设您每天遛狗，并且您知道您会带狗散步几次。

Do it in hyper detail.

做得非常详细。

So close your eyes.

所以闭上你的眼睛。

You go to the front door.

你走到前门。

You clip in the dog to the leash.

你把狗夹在皮带上。

You walk out.

你走出去。

You go down the steps, out to the driveway.

你走下台阶，来到车道上。

Then you take a right, but you always cross over, and you look to the left and the right because that's the place where traffic always comes.

然后你向右转，但你总是要过马路，你会左右看看，因为那是交通总是来的地方。

You cross over, and now you're walking up, and there's that strange set of garbage that's been outside of the house for a long time, and you don't know why it hasn't been cleared.

你穿过去，现在你往上走，发现房子外面有一堆奇怪的垃圾已经很久了，你不知道为什么还没有清理掉。

And then you move-- That type of high-fidelity detail allows you to do what we said earlier, which is get your mind off itself.

然后你开始移动——这种高保真细节可以让你做到我们之前所说的，那就是让你的思绪远离本身。

And when you do that, again, typically, you fall asleep faster, and that's what she found.

当你再次这样做时，通常你会更快入睡，这就是她的发现。

It was a great study.

这是一项很棒的研究。

I really enjoyed that.

我真的很喜欢这样。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm curious as to why it works so well, and I'm not challenging that it works.

我很好奇为什么它效果这么好，而且我并不质疑它的效果。

I can imagine having just closed my eyes and kind of imagine what that would be like.

我可以想象闭上眼睛并想象那会是什么样子。

It's very pleasant.

这是非常令人愉快的。

There might be, and here I'm just speculating, something about engaging one's procedural memory, because that's procedural memory.

可能存在，在这里我只是推测，一些关于调动一个人的程序性记忆的东西，因为那是程序性记忆。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

It is.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You're trying to remember how you do something as opposed to declarative memory, which is about facts.

你试图记住你是如何做某事的，而不是陈述性记忆，后者是关于事实的。

I remember this, and this is going to happen tomorrow.

我记得这件事，这件事明天就会发生。

I wonder whether or not there's something about using a procedural memory, as opposed to a declarative memory visualization.

我想知道是否有使用程序性记忆的方法，而不是陈述性记忆可视化。

Somebody should do that study.

应该有人做这项研究。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

They should, and I think it's certainly possible that when you're incorporating some aspect of the scene and the information is more sort of veridical and maybe sort of episodic declarative memory.

他们应该这样做，而且我认为当你将场景的某些方面和信息结合起来时，这当然有可能是更真实的，也许是情景陈述性记忆。

But when you're taking yourself for a mental walk, what is the fundamental premise of that?

但是当你让自己进行一次精神漫步时，其基本前提是什么？

It's a walk.

这是一次散步。

It's motion.

这是运动。

It's procedural memory.

这是程序性记忆。

And so maybe it's something to do about with being more attentive to becoming embodied, because when you're out walking and you're moving, it is a more embodied experience than just sitting there at your desk, which is mostly your head and very little your body.

因此，也许这与更加注重具体化有关，因为当你出去散步、移动时，这是一种比坐在办公桌前更具体的体验，办公桌主要是你的头，很少是你的身体。

So I think it's an intriguing idea, and I think another tip that I now think of, which also comes from the work of Dr. Allison Harvey, when individuals come up to me after public events, or they see me at the airport, they'll say, "Look, every night, for some strange reason, at 2:45 AM, I wake up, and it happens three or four nights a week." My first question to them is, "How do you know it's 2:45?" And they say, "Well, I look at the clock, or I look at my phone." Best piece of advice next, remove all clock faces from the bedroom.

所以我认为这是一个有趣的想法，我现在想到的另一个提示也来自艾莉森·哈维博士的工作，当人们在公共活动结束后找到我，或者他们在机场看到我时，他们会说，“看，每天晚上，出于某种奇怪的原因，凌晨 2:45，我醒来，每周发生三四个晚上。”我问他们的第一个问题是：“你怎么知道现在是 2 点 45 分？”他们说：“好吧，我看看时钟，或者我看看我的手机。”接下来最好的建议是，将卧室中的所有钟面移走。

No matter how bad your sleep is going to be that night, knowing what time it is, is only going to make matters worse.

无论那天晚上你的睡眠有多糟糕，知道现在是什么时间，只会让事情变得更糟。

It is not going to make matters any better.

这并不会让事情变得更好。

And that can create an anxiety trigger that you think, "It's 2:45," and then you're tossing and turning, you look back at the clock, and now it's 3:14 a.m.

这可能会引发焦虑，你会想：“现在是 2 点 45 分”，然后你翻来覆去，回头看看时钟，现在是凌晨 3 点 14 分。

And you think, "I've got to be awake at 6:00.

你会想，“我必须在 6:00 起床。

I've got that big meeting," and now it's 5:20.

我有一个重要的会议”，现在是 5 点 20 分。

Don't do that to yourself.

不要这样对自己。

And I, even though I don't typically struggle with sleep, I have no clock faces in my bedroom.

而我，尽管我通常不会失眠，但我的卧室里没有钟面。

The phone that I use to help do the guided meditation is an old phone, and it has only Wi-Fi connectivity and nothing else on it.

我用来帮助进行冥想引导的手机是一部旧手机，它只有 Wi-Fi 连接，没有其他功能。

And I will only hit play, and then I will never turn it around.

我只会点击播放，然后我就永远不会扭转局面。

I will not look at the clock face.

我不会看钟面。

Just doesn't help me.

只是对我没有帮助。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Another incentive for keeping the phone out of the room if one can.

如果可以的话，将手机放在房间之外的另一个动机是。

I understand there are reasons when one would want the phone in the room, if it's potentially signaling an emergency.

我知道人们希望将电话放在房间里是有原因的，如果它可能发出紧急信号的话。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Well, I think it's a very important point, and we've done some work in this area too.

嗯，我认为这是非常重要的一点，我们在这方面也做了一些工作。

What that phone does is create a low level of anxiety.

那部手机的作用是降低焦虑程度。

It's what we call anticipatory anxiety.

这就是我们所说的预期性焦虑。

One of the mechanisms separate from that-- Well, it's related to that.

其中一种机制与此不同——嗯，它与此相关。

If you look at teen phone use, one of the reasons that they don't sleep very well at night is that they're constantly checking their phones because of FOMO, a fear of missing out.

如果你观察一下青少年的手机使用情况，就会发现他们晚上睡不好的原因之一是他们因为害怕错过而不断查看手机。

What has gone on as I've been asleep?

我睡着的时候发生了什么？

And it's stunning, the data.

数据令人震惊。

But for most adults, the other reason I don't like advocating for phone use, when your alarm goes off in the morning, what is the first thing that you do as you're in bed?

但对于大多数成年人来说，我不喜欢提倡使用手机的另一个原因是，当你早上闹钟响起时，你躺在床上做的第一件事是什么？

You swipe right or you unlock your phone, and you instantly start checking social media, emails, text messages.

你向右滑动或解锁手机，你就会立即开始查看社交媒体、电子邮件、短信。

And this tsunami of stress and anxiety just floods over you.

压力和焦虑的海啸席卷了你。

It hits you like this wall of anxiety.

它就像这堵焦虑之墙一样袭击你。

And I bring this up because it again trains your brain for expectation of that.

我提出这一点是因为它再次训练你的大脑对此的期望。

Anticipatory anxiety has a consequence on your sleep, and everyone knows this.

预期焦虑会影响您的睡眠，这是每个人都知道的。

Let's say that you've booked an early morning flight, and you've got to wake up at 5:00 a.m.

假设您预订了早间航班，并且必须在凌晨 5:00 起床。

when normally you wake up at 7:00 a.m.

通常您早上 7:00 起床

Two things will usually happen.

通常会发生两件事。

First, you know that you're just not going to sleep as deeply that night because you're on edge, and this is for an interview or it's for a critical-- This is a non-negotiable trip that has to happen.

首先，你知道那天晚上你不会睡得那么深，因为你很紧张，这是为了一次采访，或者是为了一个批评——这是一次必须发生的、没有商量余地的旅行。

You've got to wake up.

你必须醒来。

The second thing is that when you are expecting that wave of sort of a need to wake up and maybe it's just I'm expecting the phone again, you will wake up just a few minutes before your alarm.

第二件事是，当你期待着那种需要醒来的浪潮时，也许只是我在等待电话再次响起，你会在闹钟响起前几分钟醒来。

It's stunning how many people will say, "I had this big flight the next day, and you almost know I'm going to wake up two minutes before my alarm goes off." Why?

令人惊讶的是，有多少人会说：“我第二天要搭乘长途航班，你几乎知道我会在闹钟响起前两分钟醒来。”为什么？

Because your brain has stayed in this shallow state of anticipatory anxiety, and you don't get as much deep sleep.

因为你的大脑一直处于这种浅层的预期焦虑状态，你无法获得足够的深度睡眠。

And we've now demonstrated that we and others, when you have that low level of anxiety, the depth of your deep sleep is not as deep.

现在我们和其他人已经证明，当你的焦虑程度较低时，你的深度睡眠深度就不会那么深。

You don't get the good-- So again, not to be trying to dictate what people do, just be aware that when you do create that behavior and that regiment, it becomes almost like a knee-jerk sort of trained habitual response.

你得不到好处——所以再说一次，不要试图命令人们做什么，只是要意识到，当你确实创造了那种行为和那种团伙时，它几乎就像是一种下意识的训练有素的习惯反应。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Terrific.

太棒了。

Let's talk about some of the advanced tools for sleep enhancement.

我们来谈谈一些增强睡眠的高级工具。

What sorts of methods could one incorporate?

可以采用哪几种方法？

What are some of the data?

有哪些数据？

And is there any way that we can sort of lump these into some framework or categories?

有没有什么方法可以将它们归为某些框架或类别？

Because I know there are a lot of different tools.

因为我知道有很多不同的工具。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

There are, and I suppose this would be-- I know our friend Peter Attia has spoken about Medicine 3.0.

有，我想这会是——我知道我们的朋友彼得·阿蒂亚（Peter Attia）谈到了医学 3.0。

I think this would probably be Sleep Optimization 3.0.

我认为这可能是睡眠优化 3.0。

What is coming down the pike?

将会发生什么？

What is in the research, and I think could make it to market or has made it to market, but yet we're still right on the cusp?

我认为研究中的内容可能会推向市场或已经推向市场，但我们仍然处于风口浪尖？

We've seen, we again in the royal we, have been able to augment human sleep in at least four different ways.

我们已经看到，我们再次在皇家中，已经能够以至少四种不同的方式增强人类睡眠。

There are methods for electrical brain stimulation.

有一些方法可以进行脑电刺激。

There are methods for acoustic stimulation of sleep.

有一些方法可以通过声音刺激睡眠。

So electrical stimulation of sleep, acoustic stimulation of sleep, thermal manipulation of sleep, and then finally, kinesthetic manipulation of sleep, meaning movement-based stimulation.

因此，对睡眠进行电刺激，对睡眠进行声刺激，对睡眠进行热操纵，最后对睡眠进行动觉操纵，即基于运动的刺激。

And maybe I can just sort of go into each one of those.

也许我可以逐一探讨一下。

The electrical stimulation is probably the most well-rendered of all of those four, in part because we started there and we-- And here it's not the royal we.

电刺激可能是这四种刺激中渲染得最好的，部分原因是我们从那里开始，而且我们——这里不是皇家我们。

We have done a lot of work on this, and I can tell you a little bit about a company emerging from that.

我们在这方面做了很多工作，我可以告诉你一些关于由此兴起的公司的情况。

But when you're trying to manipulate the human brain, the principal currency in which the brain communicates is electricity.

但当你试图操纵人脑时，大脑交流的主要货币是电。

Now, there are lots of things that help it do that, such as chemicals, but the principal language and verbiage of the brain is electricity.

现在，有很多东西可以帮助它做到这一点，例如化学物质，但大脑的主要语言和用语是电。

So if you're going to manipulate the brain, why don't you speak in its currency of electricity?

因此，如果你要操纵大脑，为什么不用电来说话呢？

So we and others have developed a method based on something called direct current brain stimulation And specifically something called transcranial direct current stimulation, and I'll unpack that.

因此，我们和其他人开发了一种基于“直流脑刺激”的方法，特别是“经颅直流刺激”，我将对其进行解压。

Trans meaning movement, so if you've heard of transport, it's about moving things from one port to another.

Trans 的意思是移动，所以如果您听说过运输，它就是将物品从一个港口移动到另一个港口。

Transatlantic, moving across the Atlantic.

跨大西洋，跨越大西洋。

So here the start of it is moving.

所以这里是它的开始。

You're moving something from one place to the next.

您正在将某物从一个地方移动到另一个地方。

Transcranial means through your skull.

经颅意味着穿过你的头骨。

So we're moving something through your skull.

所以我们正在通过你的头骨移动一些东西。

Transcranial direct current is the type of voltage or the type of electrical impulse that we're putting in.

经颅直流电是我们输入的电压类型或电脉冲类型。

It could be alternating current or it could be direct current.

它可以是交流电，也可以是直流电。

And early methods, and those we use, have been direct current.

早期的方法以及我们使用的方法都是直流电。

So transcranial direct current and then stimulation.

所以经颅直流电然后刺激。

We're trying to stimulate the brain, specifically the cortex.

我们正在尝试刺激大脑，特别是皮质。

And the way that we do this is that we apply electrode pads to your head and we insert a small amount of voltage into your brain.

我们这样做的方法是将电极垫贴在您的头部，然后将少量电压插入您的大脑。

Now, it's so small that you typically don't feel it, but it has a measurable impact on that electrical brain activity.

现在，它是如此之小，以至于你通常感觉不到它，但它对大脑电活动有可测量的影响。

So very early on, scientists, and we weren't the first to do this by any means, there was a great paper, now famous paper in my field, by a wonderful scientist, Jan Born in Germany.

科学家们，我们并不是第一个这样做的人，很早就有一篇伟大的论文，现在是我所在领域的著名论文，作者是一位出色的科学家，德国的扬·博恩（Jan Born）。

And they took a group of subjects and they applied these electrode pads and specifically to the front of the brain.

他们选取了一组受试者，并将这些电极垫专门应用于大脑的前部。

And I'll explain why we target the front of the brain with sleep electrical enhancement or the electroceutical as it were.

我将解释为什么我们要针对大脑前部进行睡眠电增强或电疗法。

They applied these electrode pads to two groups of participants, and then they let them go into sleep.

他们将这些电极垫应用到两组参与者身上，然后让他们进入睡眠状态。

And as you'll remember, we described that in the first two or three hours of sleep is when you get most of your deep sleep, and they were targeting those deep, slow brainwaves that we spoke about, those big, slow, powerful waves that define deep sleep.

你可能还记得，我们描述过，在睡眠的前两三个小时，你大部分时间都处于深度睡眠状态，他们的目标是我们谈到的那些深度、缓慢的脑电波，那些定义深度睡眠的大、缓慢、强大的脑波。

And what they did in one of those groups, the other group was the placebo group.

他们在其中一组所做的事情，另一组是安慰剂组。

They still had the electrodes applied, they still went to sleep.

他们仍然戴着电极，他们仍然在睡觉。

In the stimulation group, they waited until those individuals went into deep sleep.

在刺激组中，他们等到这些人进入深度睡眠。

And I told you in the first episode that those deep sleep brainwaves were going up and down very slowly, maybe just once or twice a second.

我在第一集中告诉过你，那些深度睡眠脑电波的上下波动非常缓慢，可能每秒只有一两次。

So they started to stimulate the brain, inputting these stimulation pulses at a very slow rhythm, trying to match the rhythm of the brain.

于是他们开始刺激大脑，以非常慢的节奏输入这些刺激脉冲，试图与大脑的节奏相匹配。

In fact, they were less than one hertz, less than one cycle per second in terms of a pulse.

事实上，它们的频率还不到一赫兹，就脉冲而言还不到每秒一个周期。

It's almost as though we're trying to act like a choir to a flagging lead vocalist.

这几乎就像我们试图像一个唱诗班一样，面对一个萎靡不振的主唱。

And as these brainwaves are going up and down, you're trying to sing in time with those deep sleep brainwaves, and in doing so, you're trying to boost and amplify the size of those deep sleep brainwaves.

当这些脑电波上下波动时，你试图与那些深度睡眠脑电波及时唱歌，这样做时，你试图提高和放大那些深度睡眠脑电波的大小。

Now to begin with, they just waited until they went into deep sleep and they started to stimulate at that frequency, and I'll come back to why that's important in a second.

现在，首先，他们只是等到进入深度睡眠，然后开始以该频率进行刺激，我稍后会回到为什么这很重要。

But sure enough, what they demonstrated, they were able to boost the electrical quality of that deep sleep by about 60%, and they were also able to almost double the amount of memory benefit that sleep provided.

但果然，正如他们所证明的那样，他们能够将深度睡眠的电质量提高约 60%，而且他们还能够将睡眠提供的记忆益处几乎增加一倍。

Wow.

哇。

Which is very impressive.

这是非常令人印象深刻的。

That is impressive.

这令人印象深刻。

Now, I should note that there was more recently a replication attempt of that paper, and they did a very good job.

现在，我应该指出，最近有人尝试复制该论文，而且他们做得非常好。

They really did it to the letter, and they weren't able to replicate the effects as powerfully.

他们确实不折不扣地做到了，但他们无法有效地复制效果。

However, subsequent studies have now taken a more nuanced approach, and it's the one that we've taken, too, and it's called closed loop stimulation.

然而，随后的研究现在采取了一种更细致的方法，我们也采用了这种方法，称为闭环刺激。

Closed loop here simply means that I'm not going to just wait until you go into deep sleep and then just take a chance and start stimulating your brain, not knowing of the synchrony of my pulses into your brain relative to the brainwaves that you're experiencing.

这里的闭环仅仅意味着我不会等到你进入深度睡眠，然后抓住机会开始刺激你的大脑，而不知道我进入你大脑的脉冲相对于你正在经历的脑电波的同步性。

Closed loop does do that.

闭环确实可以做到这一点。

So what I'm doing is I'm measuring the electrical brainwaves that are occurring, and because they're nice and slow, they're very predictable.

所以我正在做的是测量正在发生的脑电波，因为它们很好而且很慢，所以它们非常可预测。

And I can program my algorithm and my brain stimulation machine to say, "I'm going to wait and wait, and as soon as you are on this peak of your slow wave," it turns out to be the negative trough, but I'll forgo that.

我可以对我的算法和我的大脑刺激机进行编程，说：“我要等啊等，一旦你到达慢波的峰值，”结果就是负面的低谷，但我会放弃这一点。

We then try to strike at that point of midnight when you're going through the biggest sort of powerful dip in the brainwave, and we're trying to enhance it, and same with the peak.

然后，我们尝试在午夜时分，当你经历脑电波最大的强烈下降时，我们试图增强它，峰值也是如此。

So this is where we get a stimulus from the brain, your electrical brain activity, and then we create a timed response.

因此，这就是我们从大脑、大脑电活动获得刺激的地方，然后我们创建一个定时响应。

So it's a stimulus response, it's a call and response loop.

所以这是一个刺激响应，一个调用和响应循环。

And by way of doing that, it's a much smarter specific method than a more generalized, I'm just going to stimulate and hope I catch those waves at the peaks.

通过这样做，这是一种比更笼统的方法更聪明的具体方法，我只是要刺激并希望我能在高峰时抓住那些浪潮。

The reason is important because different people have different speeds of their slow brainwaves.

原因很重要，因为不同的人慢脑电波的速度不同。

They're all slow, but your speed of brainwave may be a little bit different to mine.

它们都很慢，但你的脑电波速度可能和我的有点不同。

And if I'm off with my stimulation by, let's say, just half a second or a quarter of a second time and time again, I may be leaving some benefit on the table.

如果我一次又一次地停止刺激，比如说半秒或四分之一秒，我可能会留下一些好处。

But closed loops stimulation creates this personalized electrical prescription of stimulation.

但闭环刺激创造了这种个性化的电刺激处方。

And when you do that, you get very reliable benefits.

当你这样做时，你会得到非常可靠的好处。

You can boost those deep slow brainwaves, you get the memory benefits.

你可以增强那些深慢的脑电波，你会得到记忆的好处。

But also what we found is you not only boost those deep sleep brainwaves, you boost another electrical signature that I spoke about in the first episode called sleep spindles.

但我们发现，你不仅会增强深度睡眠脑电波，还会增强我在第一集中谈到的另一种电信号，称为睡眠纺锤波。

And it seems to be the combination of those two things by way of electrical stimulation that provides the benefits.

似乎是通过电刺激将这两件事结合起来才提供了好处。

Now, I should note, I haven't mentioned this before.

现在，我应该指出，我以前没有提到过这一点。

You can buy these devices on the internet, DIY style.

您可以在互联网上以 DIY 方式购买这些设备。

Do not do that.

不要那样做。

If you go onto the internet, too, you can also find some horror stories.

如果你也上网，你也可以找到一些恐怖故事。

People have misappropriated the voltage.

人们盗用了电压。

They've got skin burns.

他们的皮肤被烧伤了。

They've lost their eyesight for several weeks.

他们已经失明数周了。

Do not do this at home, I promise you.

我向你保证，不要在家里这样做。

Wait until these products come out, and that's one of the reasons why we've scaled it into a company and we're trying to do this.

等到这些产品问世，这就是我们将其规模化为一家公司并且我们正在努力做到这一点的原因之一。

And we've got a long way to go yet.

我们还有很长的路要走。

Huge number of trials that we have to do before I feel ready to really lay it on the table and say You should absolutely buy this.

在我准备好真正把它摆到桌面上并说你绝对应该买这个之前，我们必须进行大量的试验。

It's well worth it.

这是非常值得的。

But we're getting very, very close, I would say.

但我想说，我们已经非常非常接近了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Great.

太棒了。

What about thermal manipulations?

热操纵怎么样？

Temperature.

温度。

There's such a tight relationship between temperature and sleep, and wakefulness for that matter.

温度与睡眠和清醒度之间存在着密切的关系。

What sort of technologies, tools, protocols exist that use thermal manipulation as a way to augment sleep?

存在哪些类型的技术、工具、协议可以使用热操控来增强睡眠？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

I love this topic because there are hi-fi, lo-fi, and no-fi technologies that you can use.

我喜欢这个主题，因为您可以使用高保真、低保真和无保真技术。

The story of sleep and temperature, as you mentioned before and reiterated, in terms of the three-part stanza, that tercet that I would describe is, again, you need to warm up to cool down to fall asleep.

睡眠和温度的故事，正如您之前提到并重申的，在三部分诗节中，我要描述的三节内容再次是，您需要热身以冷静下来才能入睡。

You need to stay cool to stay asleep.

您需要保持凉爽才能入睡。

You need to warm up to wake up.

你需要热身才能醒来。

What that refers to technically in sleep science are what we call the thermal trigger zones.

在睡眠科学中，这在技术上指的是我们所说的热触发区。

So warming up to cool down to fall asleep is what we call the sleep onset thermal trigger zone.

因此，从热身到冷静下来入睡就是我们所说的睡眠开始热触发区。

Cooling down or staying cool to stay asleep is about the deep sleep trigger zone, and then warming up to wake up is the activating alertness trigger zone.

冷静下来或保持凉爽以保持睡眠状态是深度睡眠触发区，然后热身醒来是激活警觉性触发区。

Studies, if you looked at them to begin with before they manipulated that, found something fascinating.

研究，如果你在他们操纵它之前先观察它们，就会发现一些令人着迷的东西。

If I take you, Andrew Huberman, and I bring you into my lab, and I remove your phone or your laptop, and you say goodbye to your friends and family, and I bring you into the center, and there are no cues as to what time of day, no windows, no nothing, and I'm just going to say, "Look, I'll keep asking you, but at the moment that you feel most sleepy, just let me know." It turns out that before that, we'd done the delightful intervention of inserting a rectal probe into you because that's the best way that we can measure your core body temperature.

如果我带你，安德鲁·胡伯曼，我带你进入我的实验室，我拿掉你的手机或笔记本电脑，你向你的朋友和家人告别，我带你进入中心，没有任何提示告诉你一天中的什么时间，没有窗户，什么也没有，我只会说，“听着，我会一直问你，但在你感到最困的那一刻，请告诉我。”事实证明，在此之前，我们已经进行了令人愉快的干预，将直肠探针插入您体内，因为这是我们测量您的核心体温的最佳方法。

So we're measuring your core body temperature, and sure enough, despite you knowing nothing about what time it is, the moment that you will tell me, "I am ready to go to bed, and I am sleepy," is the moment when you are on the greatest decelerating trajectory of your core body temperature.

因此，我们正在测量您的核心体温，当然，尽管您对现在是什么时间一无所知，但当您告诉我“我准备好去睡觉了，我很困”的那一刻，就是您的核心体温处于最大减速轨迹的时刻。

It is highly predictive of how sleepy you will feel.

它可以高度预测您的困倦程度。

The way that your body does this is by pushing blood out to the surface regions of your skin, notably your hands and your feet, because these are these highly vascular regions.

您的身体执行此操作的方式是将血液推到皮肤表面区域，特别是您的手和脚，因为这些是血管丰富的区域。

And you had a great podcast from one of my heroes and good friend, Craig Heller, who's done some amazing work on this at Stanford.

我的英雄之一、好朋友克雷格·海勒 (Craig Heller) 为您制作了精彩的播客，他在斯坦福大学在这方面做了一些令人惊叹的工作。

So naturally, as we lie down, blood races to our hands and our feet and also our head, and we start to release that heat trapped in the core of our body.

因此，当我们躺下时，血液自然会流向我们的手、脚和头部，我们开始释放身体核心的热量。

And by releasing that heat at the surface, our core body temperature drops.

通过释放表面的热量，我们的核心体温会下降。

Hence, the outer surfaces of you, hands, feet, and face, have to warm up for your core to cool down for you to fall asleep.

因此，你的外表面、手、脚和脸必须变暖，你的核心才能冷却下来，才能入睡。

And in fact, there was a great nature paper some years ago.

事实上，几年前就有一篇很棒的自然论文。

They just measured the temperature of someone's feet, and they looked at how quickly they fell asleep and when they fell asleep.

他们只是测量某人脚部的温度，然后观察他们入睡的速度和时间。

Sure enough, the warmer your feet, the faster you fell asleep.

果然，脚越暖和，你就越快睡着。

Why?

为什么？

Because the warmness reflects the blood dilation and the pumping out of the blood to the periphery.

因为温暖反映了血液的扩张和血液向外周的泵出。

And then they did it in rats, where they started to warm the paws of the rats, and the rats fell asleep more quickly.

然后他们在老鼠身上做了同样的实验，他们开始温暖老鼠的爪子，老鼠更快地入睡。

And I love this notion of, again, we don't do animal, but I love the notion of wrapping a beautiful little rat up in cotton wool, and I'm warming its feet with this pad, and it's just blissed out, and then poof, he's gone.

我再次喜欢这个想法，我们不做动物，但我喜欢用棉绒包裹一只美丽的小老鼠的想法，我用这个垫温暖它的脚，它只是幸福，然后噗，他走了。

Or she, I respect their privacy.

或者她，我尊重他们的隐私。

So that was the early evidence.

这就是早期的证据。

That then led to a series of manipulation studies.

这导致了一系列的操纵研究。

The most notable is brilliant.

最引人注目的是辉煌。

It comes from a colleague in the Netherlands, Joost van Schaik and his group.

它来自荷兰的同事 Joost van Schaik 和他的团队。

They created essentially what was a wet-- think about a wetsuit, but that wetsuit is covered with all of these thin tubes, almost like veins that go all over the suit to all territories of your body.

他们基本上创造了湿式潜水衣——想想潜水服，但潜水服上覆盖着所有这些细管，几乎就像静脉一样，遍布潜水服，通向你身体的所有部位。

And then what they would be able to do is perfuse water, warm water or hot water, exquisitely to different parts of the brain or the body.

然后他们能做的就是将水、温水或热水，精致地灌注到大脑或身体的不同部位。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Cool.

酷。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Amazing, yeah.

太棒了，是的。

No pun intended.

没有双关语的意思。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Thank you.

谢谢你。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

So what they did was then they started to manipulate these peripheral regions.

所以他们所做的就是开始操纵这些外围区域。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And sure enough, when they did this, they were able to have individuals fall asleep 25% faster.

果然，当他们这样做时，他们能够让人们的入睡速度加快 25%。

And these were healthy individuals who are normally sleeping within a very natural, quick period of time.

这些人都是健康的人，通常会在非常自然、快速的时间内入睡。

But they were able to lop off 25% of that time simply by warming these certain parts of the brain to lift the blood away from the core of the body.

但他们只需加热大脑的这些特定部位，将血液从身体核心抽走，就可以节省 25% 的时间。

And by doing that, they accelerated the temperature core deceleration, and therefore increased or accelerated the speed with which sleep arrived to those individuals.

通过这样做，他们加速了核心温度的减速，从而增加或加快了这些人进入睡眠的速度。

Sleep appeared with much greater alacrity than it would have done otherwise, even though it was quick anyway.

睡眠出现得比平常快得多，尽管无论如何都很快。

So then not being satisfied with that, they moved on to the deep sleep trigger zone, and this isn't you need to stay cool to stay asleep.

因此，他们对此不满意，进入了深度睡眠触发区，而这并不是你需要保持冷静才能入睡的地方。

And here now, they started to just continue to cool the core, the central aspects of the body.

现在，他们开始继续冷却身体的核心部分。

What they were able to do is increase the amount of deep sleep by somewhere between 25 to, if you look at some of the data, almost 40 minutes, they were able to boost the amount of deep sleep with the thermal manipulation.

他们能够做的就是将深度睡眠时间增加 25 到 40 分钟（如果你看一些数据的话），他们能够通过热控制来增加深度睡眠时间。

And when they were measuring the electrical brainwaves, and they decomposed those brainwaves, even the power and the electrical quality of those slow waves was increased.

当他们测量脑电波并分解这些脑电波时，甚至那些慢波的功率和电质量也增加了。

Very impressive, too.

也非常令人印象深刻。

Next, not being satisfied with that, they turned to older adults for the reasons that we've just described.

接下来，他们对此并不满意，出于我们刚才描述的原因，他们转向老年人。

What they found was that in those older adults, when they were not manipulated with this thermal temperature, in the second half of the night, there was a 50% probability that they were going to be awake for some part of the second half of the night.

他们发现，对于那些老年人来说，当他们没有受到这种热温度的控制时，在后半夜，他们有 50% 的概率会在后半夜的某些时候保持清醒。

When they did the thermal manipulation, they dropped that number down to 5%.

当他们进行热控制时，他们将这个数字降低到了 5%。

So they reduced a 50% probability of waking up down to 5% in older adults.

因此，他们将老年人醒来的概率从 50% 降低到 5%。

And again, they improved the quality of their deep sleep.

他们再次提高了深度睡眠的质量。

Think about, by the way, why that was so effective for older adults.

顺便想一下，为什么这对老年人如此有效。

I guarantee you you've probably seen, you've been in a warm climate, or you've been down on the beach, here sort of in Los Angeles, and people are out in shorts and T-shirts or crop tops.

我向您保证，您可能见过，您曾在温暖的气候中，或者您曾在洛杉矶的海滩上，人们穿着短裤、T 恤或露脐上衣。

And then occasionally there will be someone, and I love seeing these sights where a child is sort of wheeling along their elderly parent.

偶尔会有人，我喜欢看到这些景象，孩子们推着年迈的父母推着车。

It's a beautiful sort of scene of caring.

这是一种美丽的关怀场景。

But the older adult, they're not dressed in the same way that everyone else is dressed on the beach.

但对于老年人来说，他们的穿着与海滩上其他人的穿着不同。

They are wrapped up.

他们被包裹起来。

Some of them have a woolen hat on.

其中一些人戴着羊毛帽子。

Why?

为什么？

Older adults cannot thermoregulate anywhere near as well as young adults.

老年人的体温调节能力不及年轻人。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And it's the reason that older adults will always be saying, "I'm just so cold, and my hands and my feet especially are always cold." Now, that's a problem for sleep, because if you cannot vasodilate at the level of your hands and your feet, you can't get the blood out from the core, you can't drop your core body temperature as much.

这就是为什么老年人总是说：“我就是这么冷，尤其是我的手脚总是冷的。”现在，这对睡眠来说是一个问题，因为如果你的手和脚的血管无法舒张，你就无法将血液从核心排出，你就无法降低你的核心体温。

And we started to understand from those types of data that part of the aging sleep-related problem equation is not just that the brain deteriorates in sleep-related regions, which we've been doing most of our work on.

我们开始从这些类型的数据中了解到，与睡眠相关的衰老问题方程的一部分不仅仅是大脑与睡眠相关区域的退化，而我们一直在做大部分工作。

It's also part of a body equation and a thermoregulatory equation.

它也是身体方程和体温调节方程的一部分。

There was also a great study unrelated from Australia.

还有一项与澳大利亚无关的伟大研究。

They looked at insomnia patients, and they put their hands or their feet in warm water.

他们观察失眠患者，将他们的手或脚放入温水中。

And by doing that, it's a manipulation, you can see how quickly their hands and their feet, what we call vasodilate, fill with blood.

通过这样做，这是一种操纵，你可以看到他们的手和脚，我们所说的血管舒张，充满血液的速度有多快。

Healthy people vasodilated very quickly in response to that warm water, meaning that their hands and their feet sort of had this red, or at least for my feet they would be this red tone to them.

健康的人对温水的反应速度非常快，这意味着他们的手和脚有这种红色，或者至少对我的脚来说，它们会是这种红色调。

However, in the insomnia patients, they did not vasodilate anywhere near as well.

然而，在失眠患者中，他们的血管舒张程度却没有那么高。

So once again, it suggests that when you have problems with sleep, part of the equation may be that you have impaired thermoregulatory ability.

因此，这再次表明，当您出现睡眠问题时，部分原因可能是您的体温调节能力受损。

And we do see this in insomnia patients.

我们确实在失眠患者身上看到了这一点。

So that was, I think, a brilliant causal manipulation.

所以我认为这是一次出色的因果操纵。

The problem is that most of us don't have access to a sort of come-to-bed eyes thermal suit.

问题是我们大多数人都没有一种睡前眼睛保暖服。

So what can we do as a ...

那么作为一个人我们能做什么...

Please don't cut that.

请不要剪掉那个。

I'll get myself into terrible trouble, rightly so.

我会让自己陷入可怕的麻烦，这是正确的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You'll be all right.

你会没事的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

I should be punished.

我应该受到惩罚。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You'll be all right.

你会没事的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

So what they did then was to say, "Well, okay, let's look at this.

所以他们当时所做的就是说：“好吧，让我们看看这个。

Is there something that we could do that's cheaper and more accessible to the general public?" And if you look, there's a literature that preceded that manipulation, and it's so reliable that we now have a term for it in sleep science.

我们可以做一些更便宜、更容易为大众所接受的事情吗？”如果你看一下，就会发现在这种操纵之前有一篇文献，而且它非常可靠，以至于我们现在在睡眠科学中有一个术语来形容它。

It's called the warm bath effect.

这就是所谓的温水浴效应。

And many people will say, "Look, I love to have a warm bath or a hot shower before bed.

许多人会说：“看，我喜欢在睡觉前洗个热水澡或热水淋浴。

And I think when I get out, I'm nice and toasty, and it's because I'm nice and warm that I fall asleep and I stay asleep." It's the exact opposite.

我想当我出去的时候，我很友善，很热情，正是因为我很友善，很温暖，我才能睡着，并且一直睡着。”事实恰恰相反。

When you get out of the warm bath or the shower, you have once again vasodilated at the surface of your skin.

当您洗完热水澡或淋浴后，皮肤表面的血管再次舒张。

You get out of the bath, you get this huge thermal dump of heat away from the core.

当你走出浴缸时，你会从核心中得到巨大的热量。

What happens?

会发生什么？

You fall asleep and you stay asleep more soundly.

您会入睡并且睡得更香。

Now there are other reasons that that has a benefit.

现在还有其他原因表明这样做有好处。

It's relaxing, you decompress, you're staying away from technology, et cetera.

它让人放松、减压、远离科技等等。

But that is one of the thermal benefits.

但这是热效益之一。

And in fact, there were studies by a legend in my field who passed away just a few years ago, Jim Horne at Loughborough University in the UK, and they did some of these pioneering studies.

事实上，几年前去世的我所在领域的传奇人物、英国拉夫堡大学的吉姆·霍恩（Jim Horne）进行了一些研究，他们做了一些开创性的研究。

They were able to improve the amount of deep sleep by almost 40 minutes in some individuals.

他们能够将某些人的深度睡眠时间延长近 40 分钟。

What was the protocol there?

那里的协议是什么？

As I recall, I think they were in the bath for somewhere around, or the bath duration time was somewhere around 30 minutes, but they were doing sort of segments where it was maybe it was 40 minutes, 10 minutes in, and then you could sort of get out.

我记得，我认为他们在浴缸里待了大约某个时间，或者洗澡持续时间大约是 30 分钟，但他们正在做一些片段，可能是 40 分钟，10 分钟，然后你就可以出去了。

I think the temperature, because it was UK, was around about 40 degrees Celsius, somewhere in that region.

我认为，因为是在英国，该地区某个地方的气温大约在 40 摄氏度左右。

I may be getting those numbers wrong because I know we like to protocolize some of this.

我可能会弄错这些数字，因为我知道我们喜欢对其中的一些进行协议化。

But they were able to show some really pleasant benefits to deep sleep.

但他们能够展示出深度睡眠的一些真正令人愉快的好处。

It also helped people fall asleep, helped them fall asleep by about 25 minutes faster in those people who were really having a hard time with sleep.

它还可以帮助人们入睡，帮助那些确实睡眠困难的人更快入睡约 25 分钟。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm going to take a hot bath tonight.

今晚我要去洗个热水澡。

I sometimes do the sauna in the evening before sleep.

我有时在晚上睡觉前洗桑拿。

I'm a big fan-

我是一个超级粉丝-

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

of cold in the morning, cold shower, cold plunge in the morning.

早上的寒冷，冷水澡，早上的寒冷。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Because you're reverse engineering the equation.

因为你正在对方程进行逆向工程。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

You're trapping the heat into the core of your body.

你正在将热量困在身体的核心。

You're waking yourself up.

你正在醒来。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

And in the evening I've used sauna.

晚上我洗了桑拿。

The one issue with sauna is I really crank the heat of the sauna, and then sometimes if you do that right before bed, you take a warmish shower right afterwards, you get into bed, oftentimes I'll wake up thirsty, because it dehydrates you.

桑拿的一个问题是我真的会提高桑拿的温度，有时如果你在睡觉前这样做，然后你会立即洗个热水澡，然后上床睡觉，通常我会醒来口渴，因为它会让你脱水。

And then if I-

然后如果我——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

drink a lot of water to hydrate after I'm in the sauna, then I'm waking up too much in the middle of the night.

蒸桑拿后喝大量的水来补充水分，然后我就会在半夜醒来。

So I think sauna is great, but right before bed-

所以我认为桑拿很棒，但在睡觉前-

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

I should try.

我应该尝试一下。

I would love to.

我很乐意。

I don't have a sauna at home or an access There are saunas in and around where I live, but what I want to do is have it proximal to my bedtime.

我家里没有桑拿房，也没有通道。我住的地方及其周围有桑拿房，但我想做的是在我睡觉的时候去桑拿房。

And my bedtime, because I'm a neutral type, sort of around 11-ish, nowhere is open and willing to allow me to sit in a sauna.

至于我的就寝时间，因为我是一个中立的类型，大约11岁左右，没有地方开放并愿意让我坐在桑拿房里。

How long do you sit in there usually?

你通常在那里坐多久？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm a little bonkers about this.

我对此有点疯狂。

Well, if it's in the evening and I just want to relax, I would say maybe 20, 30 minutes, and I tend to go really warm, warmer than I want to say here.

好吧，如果是在晚上，我只是想放松一下，我会说也许 20、30 分钟，我往往会变得非常温暖，比我在这里想说的更温暖。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

What does Peter do?

彼得做什么？

Peter Attia, our friend.

彼得·阿提亚，我们的朋友。

Is he about the same?

他也差不多吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I've done sauna-cold plunge with Peter.

我和彼得一起做过桑拿冷水浴。

He usually does it in the evening, goes sauna-cold, sauna-cold, sauna-cold.

他通常在晚上洗桑拿，洗桑拿，洗桑拿。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Okay.

好的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Warm shower.

温水淋浴。

And I don't know how many nights a week he's doing that.

我不知道他每周有多少个晚上这样做。

But in terms of the temperature of the sauna, generally somewhere between 175 and 210 degrees, depending on how heat adapted you are.

但就桑拿的温度而言，一般在175度到210度之间，这取决于你对热的适应程度。

But I think a hot bath is great, or a nice hot shower.

但我认为洗个热水澡很棒，或者说洗个舒服的热水淋浴。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

I've certainly done that.

我当然已经这么做了。

Now when I'm traveling with jet lag, I will absolutely, that's part of my sort of jet lag protocol.

现在，当我带着时差旅行时，我绝对会这样做，这是我的时差协议的一部分。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

I'll make sure I do, because I don't really struggle too much with sleep, at least at present.

我会确保我这样做，因为我并没有在睡眠方面遇到太多困难，至少目前是这样。

But when I go through jet lag and I go back home to London, of course it's tough.

但当我经历时差回到伦敦的家时，这当然很艰难。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The worst.

最糟糕的。

Jet lag's the worst.

时差是最糟糕的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Protocolize the living daylights out of that and do as much as I can.

以此来规范生活并尽我所能。

So I think that's probably the end of the thermal story.

所以我认为这可能是热故事的结局。

Although, we are now trying to see if we can take lo-fi approaches where we're going to do some foot warming.

尽管如此，我们现在正在尝试看看是否可以采取低保真的方法来进行一些暖脚工作。

We're trying to develop some foot warming technology that can be built into maybe a mattress.

我们正在尝试开发一些可以内置于床垫中的足部温暖技术。

And some mattress companies, there are some great ones.

还有一些床垫公司，有一些很棒的公司。

I know, obviously Matteo at Eight Sleep, and they are doing amazing things.

我知道，显然是 Matteo 在“八眠”乐队，他们正在做一些令人惊奇的事情。

I think his company, again, I have no affiliation, but we connect very well, and he's brilliant.

我再次认为他的公司，我没有隶属关系，但我们联系很好，而且他很聪明。

So they're doing something like that.

所以他们正在做类似的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I do use and love my Eight Sleep.

我确实使用并且喜欢我的八睡眠。

Here's what I'd love somebody to engineer.

这就是我希望有人能够设计的东西。

And we've got a lot of people who listen to the podcast who think about product development.

我们有很多听播客的人思考产品开发。

It would be wonderful to have a portable pair of socks, so that you can use them when you travel or when you go sleep anywhere, at home or elsewhere-

如果有一双便携式的袜子就好了，这样你就可以在旅行或睡觉时使用它们，无论是在家里还是在其他地方——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

that would warm your feet up at the beginning of the night.

这会让你的脚在夜晚开始温暖起来。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So this is a place for us to recap.

所以这是我们回顾一下的地方。

Warm up to cool down, to fall asleep, right?

热身、降温、入睡，对吗？

Stay cool to stay asleep, and then warm up in the morning to wake up.

保持凉爽以保持睡眠，然后在早上热身以醒来。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And so that is pretty straightforward to build into a pair of socks.

因此，将其制作成一双袜子非常简单。

Somebody can do this.

有人可以做到这一点。

Somebody do this.

有人这样做。

Okay.

好的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

So we've done electrical, we've done thermal.

所以我们已经完成了电力，我们也完成了热力。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Thermal.

热。

What about auditory?

听觉方面呢？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Auditory.

听觉。

So acoustic stimulation.

所以声刺激。

In a very similar way to electrical stimulation, where you're trying to target that deep sleep and see if you-- A better analogy is probably a metronome, and you're trying to see if you can kind of force the metronome further over and back and forth with these types of technologies.

与电刺激非常相似的方式，你试图以深度睡眠为目标，看看你是否——更好的类比可能是节拍器，你试图看看是否可以用这些类型的技术迫使节拍器进一步来回移动。

So auditory stimulation came on the map, again, I think probably Jan Born's group in Germany were some of the first to do this.

因此，听觉刺激再次出现在地图上，我认为德国的扬·博恩（Jan Born）的小组可能是最先做到这一点的人之一。

They initially started with this same generalized approach, where they would take acoustic tones and they would first assess what is your level of awakening threshold.

他们最初采用相同的通用方法，即采用声学音调，然后首先评估您的觉醒阈值水平。

So you'd be asleep, and they would just have these tones, very light tones, like a sort of bing, bing, and they would gradually increase the volume up and they would look to see what is the point where that volume of the tone wakes you up.

所以你睡着了，他们就会发出这些音调，非常轻的音调，就像一种“叮、叮”，他们会逐渐增加音量，他们会看看那个音量的音调会在什么时候把你吵醒。

And then they understood your specific threshold, what's called an awakening threshold, and they would set the volume to a sub-awakening threshold.

然后他们了解了你的具体阈值，所谓的觉醒阈值，他们会把音量设置为亚觉醒阈值。

Great.

伟大的。

So you've got that locked in place, and now you start, and they did this within the first 90 minutes of people falling asleep.

所以你已经锁定到位，现在你开始了，他们在人们入睡后的前 90 分钟内做到了这一点。

They started to play these sub-awakening level volume levels of tones, but they were playing them at this very slow frequency.

他们开始播放这些亚觉醒级别的音量级别的音调，但他们以非常慢的频率播放它们。

As if, again, they're trying to sync and match the slow dancing rhythm of the slow brainwaves.

仿佛他们再次试图同步并匹配缓慢脑电波的缓慢舞蹈节奏。

And sure enough, in that first study, and it was indiscriminate, meaning they just set the tones, playing like a metronome, set the volume, and then set the cadence of the volume, the speed, the frequency of those tones to just a little bit less than one hertz, a little bit less than one cycle per second, and then off you drifted to sleep and they played it for the first 90 minutes because that's the rich phase of deep sleep.

果然，在第一项研究中，它是不加区别的，这意味着他们只是设置音调，像节拍器一样演奏，设置音量，然后将音量的节奏、速度、这些音调的频率设置为略小于一赫兹，略小于每秒一个周期，然后你就睡着了，他们在前 90 分钟播放它，因为那是深度睡眠的丰富阶段。

And they were able to increase the amount of deep sleep significantly.

他们能够显着增加深度睡眠的时间。

The problem in that first study was that they also did a memory test, because in all of these studies, including my own, even if I boost your sleep tonight, Andrew Huberman, if that's the result that you show me, I have four words for you as a scientist.

第一项研究的问题是他们还做了记忆测试，因为在所有这些研究中，包括我自己的研究，即使我今晚提高了你的睡眠，安德鲁·休伯曼，如果这是你向我展示的结果，作为一名科学家，我有四个字要对你说。

Yes, and so what?

是的，那又怎么样？

Is it functional?

功能齐全吗？

Because if I boost your sleep but it doesn't change anything to you, the organism, the next day, I'm going to suggest that that enhancement is epiphenomenal, not functional.

因为如果我提高你的睡眠质量，但第二天它不会对你、有机体产生任何改变，我会建议这种增强是附带现象，而不是功能性的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So it has to improve some reasonable metric in wakefulness that improved memory-

因此，它必须改进一些合理的清醒指标，以提高记忆力——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Correct

正确

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

improved task-switching ability.

提高任务切换能力。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

So it's outcome measures that-

因此，结果衡量标准是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Grip strength.

握力。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Correct.

正确。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Something.

某事。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

So even if I, for example, lower your blood pressure with a new drug, if I'm not changing your cardiovascular disease risk, then the question is, why am I just continuing on with the drug if it's not really changing much?

因此，即使我用一种新药来降低你的血压，如果我没有改变你患心血管疾病的风险，那么问题是，如果它并没有真正改变太多，为什么我还要继续服用这种药物呢？

Same thing here.

这里同样的事情。

And what they found was that when they did the memory test the next morning, by enhancing that deep sleep, there actually wasn't a memory benefit.

他们发现，当他们第二天早上进行记忆测试时，通过增强深度睡眠，实际上并没有提高记忆力。

So perhaps what was happening is that this was just nonspecific.

所以也许发生的事情只是不具体的。

So again, they then returned, and now others have returned to the closed loop mechanism, where now I've got electrodes on your head and I'm measuring your slow-wave brainwaves, and literally I am next door in the room and I'm watching those slow brainwaves go up and down, and then I've got a computer algorithm that is watching those, watching in quotes, watching that too, and it's predicting when the next wave is going to come.

所以，他们又回来了，现在其他人又回到了闭环机制，现在我在你的头上放了电极，我正在测量你的慢波脑电波，实际上我就在隔壁的房间里，我正在观察那些慢脑电波的上下变化，然后我有一个计算机算法来观察这些，观察引号，也观察它们，它预测下一波何时到来。

And when it does, boop Auditory tone clicks, sub awakening, you don't wake up, and sure enough, when you sort of tone into the brain at that time, you boost the size of that brainwave.

当它发生时，会发出嗡嗡的听觉音调，亚觉醒，你不会醒来，当然，当你当时向大脑发出某种音调时，你会增强脑电波的大小。

And once again, they boosted the size of those deep sleep brainwaves.

他们再次提高了深度睡眠脑电波的大小。

They also improved those more quick burst of activity, the sleep spindles, and now sure enough, they were able to improve memory.

他们还改善了那些更快速的活动爆发，即睡眠纺锤波，现在可以肯定的是，他们能够改善记忆力。

However, if you look at that paper, and here's why I think the first method may not have worked very well and why I don't suggest people start trying to set this up themselves.

然而，如果你看看那篇论文，就会发现为什么我认为第一种方法可能效果不是很好，以及为什么我不建议人们开始尝试自己设置它。

When they kept stimulating the brain, slow wave after slow wave, after about three or four strikes of the metronome to boost those slow waves, the benefit stopped.

当他们不断地刺激大脑时，慢波又慢波，在节拍器敲击三四次以增强这些慢波之后，益处就停止了。

And if they kept going, you started to inhibit the amount of naturally occurring deep-sleep brainwaves.

如果它们继续下去，你就会开始抑制自然发生的深度睡眠脑电波的数量。

Why would it do this?

它为什么要这样做呢？

Deep-sleep brainwaves, I told you in the first episode, are an act of incredible neural coordination.

我在第一集中告诉过你，深度睡眠脑电波是一种令人难以置信的神经协调行为。

It's mass coordination.

这是集体协调。

Now, one of the extreme versions of mass-coordinated propagated activity that is maladaptive, that is pathological, is called an epileptic seizure.

现在，大规模协调传播活动的一种极端版本是适应不良的、病态的，被称为癫痫发作。

And your brain has in place, for the most part, stopgaps to prevent that type of spread of vast amounts of coordinated spontaneous electrical oscillations because the brain is such a conductive device that once you get it going, you've got to be careful because it may start to conduct out of control.

在大多数情况下，你的大脑已经采取了权宜之计来防止大量协调自发电振荡的传播，因为大脑是一个导电装置，一旦你让它运转起来，你就必须小心，因为它可能会开始失控。

So we think that these checks and balances that were in place, even though you can artificially stimulate it for a while, after a while, the brain says, "Mm.

所以我们认为这些制衡已经到位，即使你可以人为地刺激它一段时间，过了一会儿，大脑会说：“嗯。

You've got to back off for a while because this is getting a little bit out of control." You do a breath pause, and then you restart again, and you get the benefit, and then you breath pause.

你必须后退一段时间，因为事情已经有点失控了。”你做一次呼吸暂停，然后再次重新开始，你会得到好处，然后你呼吸暂停。

So you've got to do it a little bit intimately.

所以你必须做得更亲密一些。

Now you've got to read what we call the supplemental materials of that paper.

现在您必须阅读我们所说的该论文的补充材料。

It's like the fine print on a legal document.

这就像法律文件上的细则。

If you dig into it, you can see that that was the case, but it wasn't necessarily evident.

如果你深入研究，你会发现情况确实如此，但并不一定明显。

So those were really the data on acoustic stimulation.

所以这些确实是声刺激的数据。

Now with this closed loop acoustic stimulation that we've got going on, it seems to provide these nice benefits.

现在，通过我们正在进行的闭环声刺激，它似乎提供了这些很好的好处。

Some people then will probably be asking, what about these noise machines?

那么有人可能会问，这些噪音机器怎么样？

What about white noise, et cetera?

白噪声等等呢？

I've taken a look at this, and so far, I think for white noise machines, the data is equivocal.

我已经研究过这个，到目前为止，我认为对于白噪声机器来说，数据是模棱两可的。

There was a recent study, a review article, I think it looked at about 37 different studies.

最近有一项研究，一篇评论文章，我认为它考察了大约 37 项不同的研究。

I could have this wrong.

我可能会犯这个错误。

And what they found was that there was no reliable, robust directional effect of white noise machines on sleep.

他们发现白噪音机器对睡眠没有可靠、稳健的定向作用。

Some studies demonstrated that it helped sleep.

一些研究表明它有助于睡眠。

Some studies didn't change sleep.

一些研究并没有改变睡眠。

Some studies suggested it may make sleep a little bit worse.

一些研究表明，这可能会使睡眠变得更糟。

Just nothing reliable.

只是没有什么可靠的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But maybe it's masking external sound.

但也许它掩盖了外部声音。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Correct.

正确。

And one of the positive studies in that scenario was a study that was done in New York City, and it was in a region where there was a lot of external sound pollution and noise.

在这种情况下，一项积极的研究是在纽约市进行的一项研究，该地区存在大量外部声音污染和噪音。

As you could well imagine, it's New York City.

正如你想象的那样，这是纽约市。

And sure enough, that's where they got some really nice benefits of the white noise machine.

果然，这就是他们从白噪声机器中获得一些非常好的好处的地方。

So I think it is, you're right, context-dependent.

所以我认为，你是对的，取决于具体情况。

There was an interesting recent study that came out from Etaman Learner's group at the University of Texas, San Antonio, and they didn't use white noise, they used pink noise.

德克萨斯大学圣安东尼奥分校的 Etaman Learner 小组最近进行了一项有趣的研究，他们没有使用白噪声，而是使用了粉红噪声。

Now what's the difference?

现在有什么区别？

Pink noise has a little less what we call power or intensity in the higher frequency ranges of the sound spectrum, and it's more enriched in the slower domain of that power spectrum, which you could argue is a bit more fitting with sleep.

在声谱的较高频率范围内，粉红噪声的功率或强度要少一些，而在该功率谱的较慢域中，粉红噪声的功率或强度会更加丰富，您可能会认为这更适合睡眠。

And I think the study may have been a nap study, or I may be wrong, but anyway, what they found was that they increased total sleep time by, I think it was close to 30 minutes with the pink noise.

我认为这项研究可能是一项小睡研究，或者我可能是错的，但无论如何，他们发现他们的总睡眠时间增加了，我认为粉红噪音的睡眠时间接近 30 分钟。

They did not change the amount of deep sleep, but they did enhance the amount of stage two non-REM sleep, which we have spoken about before and we will in subsequent episodes, that is beneficial for things like learning and memory, including motor skills.

它们没有改变深度睡眠的时间，但确实增加了第二阶段非快速眼动睡眠的时间，我们之前已经谈到过，我们将在后续的章节中讨论过，这对学习和记忆（包括运动技能）等方面有益。

And they increased the amount of REM sleep to a much more modest degree.

他们将快速眼动睡眠时间增加到了更适度的程度。

But those changes were significant.

但这些变化意义重大。

So I'm not trying to rule out noise machines right now, and I have no affiliation with any company or anything in that space.

因此，我现在并不试图排除噪音机器，而且我与该领域的任何公司或任何事物都没有隶属关系。

I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

我不想把孩子和洗澡水一起倒掉。

I just simply think that right now we don't have enough evidence, but as you and I know as scientists, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

我只是简单地认为，目前我们没有足够的证据，但正如你和我作为科学家所知，缺乏证据并不代表不存在。

Just because it doesn't exist doesn't mean that I don't think that it's still a potential route, these types of machines.

仅仅因为它不存在并不意味着我不认为它仍然是一条潜在的路线，这些类型的机器。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What about kinesthetic- ...

动觉呢——...

vestibular tools, protocols?

前庭工具、协议？

Body position is something that has an interesting relationship to propensity to fall asleep based on brain cooling that we talked about in another episode.

身体姿势与入睡倾向存在有趣的关系，这种关系基于我们在另一集中讨论的大脑冷却。

But what about manipulation of the body's movement?

但是如何操纵身体的运动呢？

Yeah.

是的。

Is there anything in that domain?

该域中有什么东西吗？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

It sounds wacky at first.

乍一听起来很古怪。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, it does.

是的，确实如此。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

But-

但是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But I said it, so-

但我说了，所以——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

But-

但是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You know.

你知道。

I still want to know.

我还想知道。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Come on social media, just be nice, be friendly.

来吧社交媒体，表现得友善一点。

I would say that if you look back in, again, the annals of human history, from the very early inception, you will see mentions of a child being rocked in a manger or rocked in a crib Often parents will take their young infant and you will, quote unquote, rock them to sleep.

我想说的是，如果你再回顾一下人类历史，从很早的时候起，你就会看到关于孩子在马槽里摇晃或在婴儿床上摇晃的记载。父母通常会带着他们的小婴儿，你会，引用不引用，摇晃他们入睡。

And we, as adults, will sometimes get in a hammock, and if you're rocked, what happens?

作为成年人，我们有时会躺在吊床上，如果你感到摇晃，会发生什么？

You will fall asleep.

你会睡着的。

It's that prototypical image of someone with their hat over their face and in a hammock, and they've sort of fallen asleep.

这是一个典型的形象，一个人戴着帽子，躺在吊床上，他们已经睡着了。

So it was very clear that something was going on in this space.

所以很明显这个空间正在发生一些事情。

And then a group from the University of Geneva, led by another fantastic sleep scientist, Sophie Schwartz, did an epic study that, again, it's one of those studies that I probably once more wished I'd done.

然后，日内瓦大学的一个小组在另一位出色的睡眠科学家索菲·施瓦茨 (Sophie Schwartz) 的带领下进行了一项史诗般的研究，这也是我可能再次希望自己完成的研究之一。

Here's what they did.

这就是他们所做的。

They took a bed frame, and then they suspended it on chains from the ceiling.

他们拿了一个床架，然后用链子把它挂在天花板上。

Now, stick with me.

现在，跟着我吧。

I'm not going in that-- There's no hot candle wax being applied here.

我不会那样做——这里没有使用热蜡烛蜡。

Don't worry, I'll keep it PG again.

别担心，我会再次保留它的PG。

And then the next thing that they did was connect a rotating arm to that bed at the side of the bed.

然后他们做的下一件事是将旋转臂连接到床边的床上。

And that arm would start to simply just push the bed laterally from left to right, left to right.

那只手臂会开始简单地从左到右、从左到右横向推动床。

And they started just swinging the bed in a very controlled manner.

他们开始以一种非常受控的方式摆动床。

But here, and I should ask Sophie exactly why they made this choice, they were rotating the bed not at this sort of around one hertz, which is what we'd done with electrical stimulation or acoustic stimulation.

但在这里，我应该问索菲到底为什么他们做出这个选择，他们旋转床的速度不是大约一赫兹，这就是我们用电刺激或声刺激所做的。

They were doing it at 0.25 hertz, which is much slower still.

他们以 0.25 赫兹的频率进行操作，这仍然慢得多。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Almost imperceptibly.

几乎是难以察觉的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

The bed is rocking once every four seconds.

床每四秒摇晃一次。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Wow.

哇。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

It's a very slow lull.

这是一个非常缓慢的平静。

And sure enough, what they found in the first series of studies, they did a nap study, a 90-minute nap study.

果然，他们在第一个系列研究中发现，他们进行了一项午睡研究，一项 90 分钟的午睡研究。

When you did this rocking motion versus when the bed was still, they increased the speed with which people fell asleep, they boosted the amount of deep sleep, and they boosted the amount of those sleep spindle oscillations that we described.

当你做这种摇摆运动时，与床静止时相比，它们会增加人们入睡的速度，它们会增加深度睡眠的时间，并且会增加我们所描述的睡眠纺锤波振荡的数量。

Not satisfied, they then said, "Well, what happens across a night of sleep?" They did it then across a night of sleep.

他们不满意，接着说：“那么，一整夜的睡眠会发生什么？”然后他们在整夜的睡眠中做到了这一点。

They replicated the same findings, and now they got a memory benefit.

他们重复了相同的发现，现在他们的记忆力得到了改善。

Now, the memory benefit you could argue was modest.

现在，你可以说它对记忆的好处是有限的。

It was 10% of a memory improvement benefit when you woke up from sleep relative to the already sizable benefit that sleep naturally gives when you're not rocking the bed.

当你从睡眠中醒来时，与不摇床时自然睡眠所带来的已经相当大的好处相比，它对记忆力改善的好处只有 10%。

But you think, well, 10%.

但你想，嗯，10%。

If I were, let's say, a student and I got a B, and the professor said, "Look, by the way, there is something that you can do, and we can increase your grade by 10%, and you can get to an A or an A+ depending on the grading system," would you take it?

假设我是一名学生，我得了 B，教授说：“顺便说一句，你可以做点什么，我们可以将你的成绩提高 10%，根据评分系统，你可以得到 A 或 A+，”你会接受吗？

Would you take 10% benefit?

你愿意接受10%的福利吗？

Absolutely, you would.

当然，你会的。

So grade point average increase.

所以平均绩点提高了。

So it isn't trivial necessarily.

所以这不一定是微不足道的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, also, I'm positively surprised how important this but so what condition is for you sleep researchers.

好吧，我也很惊讶这有多重要，但对于你们睡眠研究人员来说，什么条件是重要的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

And so what?

那又怎么样？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That an enhancement in, say, deep sleep or rapid eye movement sleep needs to translate to some daytime benefit in order to really get you guys excited.

例如，深度睡眠或快速眼动睡眠的增强需要转化为白天的一些好处，才能真正让你们兴奋起来。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But here's why I think that's great.

但这就是为什么我认为这很棒。

It's always great to have a high threshold for excitement.

拥有较高的兴奋阈值总是很棒的。

But one of the things that one could argue is that there are only so many tests that you can have in a laboratory-

但人们可能会争论的一件事是，你在实验室里只能进行这么多的测试——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

of daytime functioning.

白天运作。

I think I am on board the fact that sleep is the bedrock of mental health, physical health, and performance.

我认为我同意这样一个事实：睡眠是心理健康、身体健康和表现的基石。

So a statistically significant improvement in deep sleep or REM sleep to me just seems like that's got to be good for something.

因此，在我看来，深度睡眠或快速眼动睡眠在统计上的显着改善似乎是有好处的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We might not know what that something is to test in the laboratory, but it could be that the threshold for improvement of, say, gut microbiome production of neurotransmitters is-

我们可能不知道要在实验室测试什么，但改善肠道微生物组神经递质产生的阈值可能是——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Correct

正确

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

0.1% improvement in deep sleep.

深度睡眠改善 0.1%。

We don't know.

我们不知道。

I made that up, so don't quote that statistic, anyone.

这是我编造的，所以任何人都不要引用该统计数据。

But I so admire the kind of extreme thresholds of what gets you guys excited.

但我非常钦佩那种让你们兴奋的极限。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Well, no, your point is a very good one because you could argue based on what I just went back and said regarding the exercise study with Rhonda Patrick, I've just reversed my own threshold logic.

嗯，不，你的观点非常好，因为你可以根据我刚刚回去说的有关朗达·帕特里克的运动研究的内容来争论，我刚刚颠倒了我自己的阈值逻辑。

I said to you, well, okay, exercise was able to overcome some of the deficits that occur by way of sleep deprivation for your blood sugar, but don't assume that that necessarily means it overcomes the other detriments that you'll have for your hormonal health, your thermoregulatory capacity, your cardiovascular disease, your brain function.

我对你说，好吧，运动能够克服因睡眠不足而导致的一些血糖缺陷，但不要认为这一定意味着它可以克服对你的荷尔蒙健康、体温调节能力、心血管疾病、大脑功能的其他损害。

So I've just said, look, simply one thing doesn't mean that you've assessed all things.

所以我刚才说，看，仅仅一件事并不意味着你已经评估了所有事情。

And now I'm saying, okay, if you don't show that it improved that one thing, then it's not functional.

现在我说，好吧，如果你没有证明它改进了这一点，那么它就不起作用。

But Matt, by your own logic, you've said that but you didn't assess many of the other things.

但是马特，按照你自己的逻辑，你已经说了这一点，但你没有评估其他许多事情。

So even if it didn't improve memory, as you said, it's the bedrock of all things health.

因此，即使它不能提高记忆力，正如你所说，它也是一切健康的基石。

You need to assess all of them before you make your conclusion of the yes and so what failed test.

在做出“是”的结论之前，您需要对所有这些进行评估，以及哪些测试未通过。

So you're absolutely right to point that out.

所以你指出这一点是完全正确的。

So what was interesting after that data came out in humans, which is usually the opposite way around, they started to look in animal models.

因此，有趣的是，在人类数据出来后（通常情况正好相反），他们开始在动物模型中研究。

And you mentioned the vestibular system, this ability for us to understand motion and movement, and there's lots of mechanisms for that.

你提到了前庭系统，这种系统让我们能够理解运动和运动，并且有很多机制可以实现这一点。

They looked at mice, and they started doing this rocking again.

他们看着老鼠，然后又开始做同样的摇摆动作。

And sure enough, the mice fell asleep faster.

果然，老鼠睡得更快了。

But then they found a strain of mice that did not have the lateral vestibular sensation mechanism And they rocked them just the same way.

但后来他们发现了一种没有外侧前庭感觉机制的小鼠，他们用同样的方式摇晃它们。

Zero change in their sleep.

他们的睡眠变化为零。

Because you could imagine, well, it's important to understand the mechanism here.

因为你可以想象，理解这里的机制很重要。

Is it that when you're rocking, it's not just about vestibular stimulation, maybe that rocking modestly changes friction, which changes temperature.

当你摇摆时，这不仅仅是前庭刺激，也许摇摆会适度改变摩擦力，从而改变温度。

You could come up with all sorts of wacky reasons.

你可以想出各种稀奇古怪的理由。

This was a very clear causal manipulation of the lateral vestibular system, and if that is not in place, you fail to get the benefit.

这是对外侧前庭系统的一个非常明确的因果操作，如果没有到位，你就无法获得好处。

So it clearly has something to do with the vestibular system.

所以这显然与前庭系统有关。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Can I venture a guess as to why that is?

我可以大胆猜测一下这是为什么吗？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah, please.

是的，请。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I interrupted, but in case I happen to be right by some chance.

我打断了他的话，但以防万一我碰巧是对的。

I previously talked about the need to lose a sense of one's posture in relationship to gravity in order to fall asleep, right?

我之前谈到过需要失去与重力相关的姿势感才能入睡，对吗？

You have to go into this lack of proprioceptive awareness in order to fall asleep.

你必须进入这种本体感觉意识缺失的状态才能入睡。

Proprioception being the knowledge of where one's limbs are relative to the body and body relative to other surfaces and gravity.

本体感觉是关于一个人的四肢相对于身体的位置以及身体相对于其他表面和重力的知识。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Space.

空间。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And this is something that can be accomplished in these flotation tanks and things like that.

这可以在这些浮选罐和类似的东西中完成。

And other ways.

以及其他方式。

Go to outer space.

去外太空吧。

But-

但是——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

The cheaper version

更便宜的版本

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The cheaper version.

更便宜的版本。

So could it be that the rocking at that very slow frequency is tapping into the vestibular system in a way that that proprioceptive feedback about body position somehow starts to vanish?

那么，以非常慢的频率进行的摇摆是否会以某种方式进入前庭系统，从而使关于身体位置的本体感觉反馈以某种方式开始消失？

And because I'm intrigued by this idea that you have to lose perception of your body's positioning and proprioceptive awareness in order to fall asleep, and maybe your description earlier of a protocol of going on a mental walk in order to fall asleep.

因为我对这个想法很感兴趣，即你必须失去对身体位置的感知和本体感觉意识才能入睡，也许你之前描述的为了入睡而进行精神行走的协议。

I just feel like these things are starting to converge on some themes here.

我只是觉得这些事情开始汇聚到一些主题上。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Our central common pathway that could be the absence of pro...

我们的核心共同途径可能是缺乏亲...

I think it's entirely possible.

我认为这是完全有可能的。

In some ways, right now, we think that these two things are associated, that as you're falling asleep, gradually you will lose proprioceptive sensation.

在某些方面，现在我们认为这两件事是相关的，当你入睡时，你会逐渐失去本体感觉。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Got it.

明白了。

Okay.

好的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

But simply the fact that two things are associated doesn't necessarily mean they're causal, but your suggestion here is a very elegant way of testing that hypothesis, which is that perhaps if you could show that the symmetric of proprioception becomes compromised when you start doing lateral sort of kinesthetic or movement stimulation, that's a very powerful demonstration that it's not just...

但仅仅两件事相关的事实并不一定意味着它们是因果关系，但你在这里的建议是检验该假设的一种非常优雅的方式，也就是说，也许如果你可以证明当你开始进行横向动觉或运动刺激时本体感觉的对称性会受到损害，那就是一个非常有力的证明，它不仅仅是......

So here with the study in the mice, they lacked the lateral vestibular sensation, and you lost the sleep benefit.

因此，在对小鼠的研究中，它们缺乏外侧前庭感觉，因此您失去了睡眠益处。

But maybe there's one step down, which is that when you lose that vestibular stimulation, you lose the benefit on the thing that really is augmenting the sleep, which is the change in proprioception.

但也许还有一个步骤，那就是当你失去前庭刺激时，你就失去了真正增强睡眠的好处，即本体感觉的变化。

So this is the first step in a chain of command, and you've missed the final common transactor of that ingredient called better sleep.

所以这是命令链中的第一步，你错过了该成分的最后一个共同因素，即更好的睡眠。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Interesting.

有趣的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And those, I would say, are probably the four current bastions of sleep augmentation.

我想说，这些可能是当前睡眠增强的四个堡垒。

Hopefully, that describes to listeners the range of where Sleep 3.0, Sleep Enhancement 3.0 is going and also describes the way in which we can come down the strata from high friction, low friction to no friction.

希望这能够向听众描述睡眠 3.0、睡眠增强 3.0 的发展方向，并描述我们如何从高摩擦、低摩擦到无摩擦。

And also in terms of cost, where you can have high cost, minimal cost, low cost.

还有在成本方面，你可以有高成本、最小成本、低成本。

Hot bath or a shower is pennies on the dollars, so.

洗个热水澡或淋浴是很划算的，所以。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Especially if you take a cold shower in the morning and save on your heating bill.

特别是如果您早上洗个冷水澡并节省取暖费。

So you can take a little bit longer hot shower in the evening, and then you net to zero difference.

所以你可以在晚上洗更长一点的热水澡，然后你的净差就为零。

It's just my way of saying take a cold shower in the morning.

这只是我的说法，早上洗个冷水澡。

Feels great when you get out.

出来的时候感觉棒极了

What about some ways to enhance rapid eye movement sleep beyond what you've covered up until now?

除了您迄今为止所掩盖的之外，还有哪些增强快速眼动睡眠的方法呢？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

So I think there are probably two emerging data sets that I've been intrigued by, one of which we've been doing some work on, and it comes back to thermal.

因此，我认为可能有两个新兴数据集让我感兴趣，其中一个我们一直在做一些工作，它又回到了热学方面。

What I failed to mention is not just that you need to warm up to wake up, which you do, but you also need to warm up to REM sleep.

我没有提到的是，你不仅需要热身才能醒来，而且你也需要热身到快速眼动睡眠。

But not too much.

但也不过分。

If you take an organism or a human being and you strip them of bedsheets and strip them of clothes, so they're basically almost au naturel.

如果你拿一个有机体或一个人，剥掉他们的床单和衣服，那么他们基本上几乎是自然的。

If you warm the body up to what we call the thermoneutral point, so it tends to be, and this sounds extreme, and you don't have to do this because you're under sheets, and that makes a world of difference.

如果你把身体加热到我们所说的热中性点，那么它往往是这样，这听起来很极端，而且你不必这样做，因为你在床单下，这会带来一个不同的世界。

But if you warm the room to about 30 degrees Celsius, which gets close to at the surface ambient level for your skin, something that can bring your core body temperature up back up to operating.

但是，如果您将房间加热到 30 摄氏度左右，这接近您皮肤的表面环境温度，则可以使您的核心体温恢复到工作状态。

Because I told you, when you're in that deep sleep trigger zone, the middle zone, your core body temperature drops, and it drops significantly.

因为我告诉过你，当你处于深度睡眠触发区（中间区）时，你的核心体温会下降，而且会显着下降。

And to wake up, you have to warm up.

要醒来，你必须热身。

But on the journey to warming up, you also have to get to thermoneutrality-

但在热身的过程中，你还必须达到热中性——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

for you to have REM sleep.

让您拥有快速眼动睡眠。

If I keep you too cold, I can reduce the amount of REM sleep.

如果我让你太冷，我可以减少快速眼动睡眠的时间。

If I get you too hot, I can impair the amount of REM sleep.

如果我让你太热，我可能会影响快速眼动睡眠的时间。

So it's a Goldilocks phenomenon.

所以这是一个金发姑娘现象。

Not too little, not too much, just the right amount.

不能太少，也不能太多，适量即可。

If I keep you there in terms of your thermal net neutrality, I can boost your REM sleep.

如果我让你保持热网络中立，我可以改善你的快速眼动睡眠。

Now, that's fiendishly difficult when you're trying to solve that equation as a commercial device because different people are under different blankets.

现在，当你试图将这个方程作为商业设备来求解时，这是极其困难的，因为不同的人处于不同的毯子之下。

They run at different hot temperatures.

它们在不同的高温下运行。

They've got different partner situations.

他们有不同的合作伙伴情况。

So you need a closed-loop system again.

所以你又需要一个闭环系统。

But it's something that we're very interested in because almost all of the methods that I've described, and you were smart to pick this up, all target deep non-REM sleep But we spoke about in the first episode, every stage of sleep is important.

但这是我们非常感兴趣的，因为我所描述的几乎所有方法（你很聪明地选择了这一点）都针对深度非快速眼动睡眠。但是我们在第一集中谈到，睡眠的每个阶段都很重要。

And in subsequent episodes, I'll tell you exactly why REM sleep is so critical.

在接下来的剧集中，我将确切地告诉您为什么快速眼动睡眠如此重要。

So how can we boost that?

那么我们如何才能促进这一点呢？

That's one way that we're starting to explore it, but nothing, I think, solid yet.

这是我们开始探索的一种方式，但我认为目前还没有可靠的方法。

The other is some of the drugs, the newer sleep medications that have come onto the market.

另一个是一些药物，即已经上市的新型睡眠药物。

And again, I think I mentioned I did take to task, and I feel perhaps rightfully so about the classic sleep medications, that if you look at the scientific data, if you can avoid them, it's probably best to do so.

再说一遍，我想我提到过我确实承担了任务，而且我对经典睡眠药物的感觉也许是正确的，如果你看看科学数据，如果你能避免它们，最好这样做。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Things like Ambien, et cetera.

比如安必恩等等。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

We call them the Z drugs because their generic names sort of start with a Z.

我们称它们为 Z 药物，因为它们的通用名称以 Z 开头。

Ambien, for example, has a Z at the start of its generic name.

例如，Ambien 的通用名称开头有一个 Z。

But I don't want to get into naming any necessarily brands.

但我不想提及任何必要的品牌。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm sorry.

对不起。

They'll come after me, not you.

他们会来找我，而不是你。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah, zolpidem for Ambien.

是的，安必恩的唑吡坦。

What's interesting about those medications, again, they're in a class of drugs that we call the sedative hypnotics.

这些药物的有趣之处在于，它们属于我们称之为镇静催眠药的一类药物。

So again, sedation, not sleep.

再说一遍，镇静，而不是睡眠。

And also, there's been some great work, again, by Derk-Jan Dijk and colleagues.

此外，Derk-Jan Dijk 及其同事也做出了一些出色的工作。

If I were to show you that electrical signature of your deep sleep, it does look as though those drugs kind of increase the amount of electrical activity in that slower deep-sleep range.

如果我向您展示深度睡眠的电信号，看起来这些药物确实会增加较慢的深度睡眠范围内的电活动量。

Except once you go all the way to the far left to the slowest of those slow brain waves, which turns out to be the types of waves that are most beneficial for most health-related brain and body functions, you get this huge dent in your electrical brain wave activity.

除非你一路走到最左边，到达最慢的那些慢脑电波（事实证明这是对大多数与健康相关的大脑和身体功能最有益的电波类型），否则你的脑电波活动就会受到巨大的影响。

It's almost as though those drugs take a bite out of that realm of electrical activity.

就好像这些药物会影响电活动的范围。

And of course, there are issues with daytime sleepiness and some safety-related issues.

当然，还有白天嗜睡的问题和一些安全相关的问题。

There's been health associations, not necessarily causal.

存在健康关联，但不一定是因果关系。

And so I offered one scientific viewpoint of those medications in the book, and so be it.

因此，我在书中提出了关于这些药物的一种科学观点，就这样吧。

It's not as though I'm anti-medication, as I said, and some of the new medications are very interesting.

正如我所说，我并不是反对药物治疗，而且一些新药物非常有趣。

Brings me back to REM sleep.

让我回到快速眼动睡眠。

There's a new class of sleep medications called the DORAs, and it's D-O-R-A, small S, and it stands for dual orexin receptor antagonists.

有一种新的睡眠药物称为 DORA，它是 D-O-R-A，小 S，代表双重食欲素受体拮抗剂。

Oh my goodness, mouthful.

我的天哪，满口的。

That just sounds like word salad to anyone who's not a neuroscientist.

对于任何非神经科学家来说，这听起来就像是一个词沙拉。

Orexin, which is part of that set of words, is a chemical in the brain.

食欲素是这组词的一部分，是大脑中的一种化学物质。

And orexin became prominent with the study of narcolepsy.

食欲素随着发作性睡病的研究而变得突出。

And what we, as the royal we, people like Emmanuel Mignot and others at Stanford, what they discovered was that narcoleptic patients have a profound deficit in this chemical, orexin-

我们，作为皇室成员，像伊曼纽尔·米尼奥特和斯坦福大学的其他人一样，他们发现发作性睡病患者在这种化学物质——食欲素——中存在严重缺陷——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Also called hypocretin, right?

也称为下丘脑分泌素，对吗？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

and in the receptors.

和受体中。

Also called hypocretin.

也称为下丘脑分泌素。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And it has a function both, it turns out, for wakefulness and a function for feeding and eating-related behaviors.

事实证明，它既具有唤醒功能，也具有喂养和饮食相关行为的功能。

Hypocretin was probably more related to it because it was discovered right around the same time.

下丘脑分泌素可能与它更相关，因为它是在大约同一时间被发现的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So early 2000s.

2000 年代初。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yes, exactly.

是的，完全正确。

Beautiful.

美丽的。

Two different groups named it differently.

两个不同的团体对它的命名不同。

But narcolepsy, as some people may know, it's a condition.

但正如有些人可能知道的那样，嗜睡症是一种病症。

It's a sleep disorder.

这是一种睡眠障碍。

And one of the symptoms is called excessive daytime sleepiness, where you have inappropriate invasions of sleep during the day when you want to be awake.

其中一种症状被称为白天过度嗜睡，即当您想要清醒时，您的睡眠会受到不适当的干扰。

Why?

为什么？

Well, it turns out that this chemical orexin acts like a finger on the light switch of all of the apparatus in your brain that switches on to force you awake.

好吧，事实证明，这种化学食欲素的作用就像一根手指按在你大脑中所有装置的灯开关上，打开迫使你醒来。

It's released from a central part of your brain called the hypothalamus, and it releases down into the brain stem to activate what we call the ascending arousal system or the reticular ascending arousal system of the brain.

它从大脑的中央部分（称为下丘脑）释放，然后向下释放到脑干，以激活我们所说的大脑上行唤醒系统或网状上行唤醒系统。

And when that lights up, it's like the light switch which says on for waking brain activity.

当它亮起来时，就像灯开关一样，表明大脑活动被唤醒。

And so what was happening was that this orexin higher up was not forcing the finger of wakefulness on during the day.

所以发生的事情是，这种更高的食欲素并没有在白天强迫手指保持清醒。

So almost instead of a switch, which is what you want, it was more like a dimmer switch.

因此，它几乎不是您想要的开关，而是更像是调光开关。

And you know when you get to that dimmer switch point right in the middle where it's flickering, it's on, it's off, it's on, it's off?

你知道当你到达中间的调光开关点时，它会闪烁，它打开，它关闭，它打开，它关闭？

That's almost the state in which the narcoleptic brain was because they had a deficiency of orexin.

这几乎就是发作性睡病患者的大脑由于缺乏食欲素而处于的状态。

So that was the orexin story in narcolepsy.

这就是嗜睡症中食欲素的故事。

So why is it relevant for insomnia?

那么为什么它与失眠有关呢？

Well, people realized the problem with narcolepsy is that they're asleep during the day when they want to be awake.

嗯，人们意识到嗜睡症的问题在于，他们在白天想要清醒的时候却睡着了。

But the opposite problem is true of insomnia patients.

但失眠患者却面临着相反的问题。

They want to be asleep at night, but they're awake.

他们晚上想睡觉，但他们却醒着。

So why don't we selectively develop a drug that goes after this finger that flips the light switch on for wakefulness, but now let's block it at night, so we flick the switch back in the off position.

那么，为什么我们不选择性地开发一种药物来追踪这个手指，打开灯开关以保持清醒，但现在让我们在晚上阻止它，所以我们将开关弹回关闭位置。

We turn out the lights for the brain, and we remove the problem of insomnia, which is excessive wakefulness at night, which is one of its problems.

我们关掉大脑的灯，消除失眠的问题，失眠就是晚上过度清醒，这是它的问题之一。

And therefore, when you remove that, indirectly what comes in its place is this thing called more naturalistic sleep, and that's why it's been more favored now as the principal drug.

因此，当你去掉它时，间接取而代之的是一种叫做更自然主义睡眠的东西，这就是为什么它现在作为主要药物更受青睐。

It's still not necessarily well known by physicians, or it's not very well prescribed.

它仍然不一定被医生所熟知，或者没有得到很好的规定。

It's not very well covered here in the United States, unfortunately, with insurance, so it's a very expensive option right now.

不幸的是，在美国，保险的保障不是很好，所以现在这是一个非常昂贵的选择。

Health providers will choose not to do that, unfortunately.

不幸的是，医疗服务提供者会选择不这样做。

So what's interesting about that drug, though, is that it's mixed in terms of the studies, but quite reliably, it does seem to improve sleep very much so.

然而，该药物的有趣之处在于，它在研究方面是混杂的，但非常可靠的是，它似乎确实能极大地改善睡眠。

But it seems to, unlike those classic sleeping pills which artificially look like they're increasing deep sleep even though they're not, they're doing sedation, these drugs can improve most all aspects of sleep, but including REM sleep, which those classic sleeping pills did not.

但看起来，与那些人为地看起来像是在增加深度睡眠的经典安眠药不同，尽管它们实际上并没有镇静作用，但这些药物可以改善大多数睡眠的各个方面，但包括快速眼动睡眠，而那些经典安眠药却不能。

Why is it doing that?

它为什么要这么做？

We still don't know, but one of the things that these dora drugs do that block the orexin, that take off the on position of the light switch and flip them off, when you switch it off, it can actually then allow the activation or the stimulation of something called melanin-concentrated hormone, or MCH, in the brain.

我们仍然不知道，但这些多拉药物的作用之一是阻断食欲素，即取消灯开关的打开位置并将其关闭，当你将其关闭时，它实际上可以激活或刺激大脑中一种称为黑色素浓缩激素（MCH）的物质。

And that, when it is triggered on, can stimulate another chemical called acetylcholine in the brain, which is a neurotransmitter.

当它被触发时，可以刺激大脑中另一种称为乙酰胆碱的化学物质，这是一种神经递质。

If there is one neurotransmitter in the brain that seems to be responsible almost exclusively for this thing called REM sleep, or dominantly, I should say, for REM sleep, it is acetylcholine.

如果大脑中有一种神经递质似乎几乎完全负责快速眼动睡眠，或者我应该说，它是快速眼动睡眠的主要神经递质，那么它就是乙酰胆碱。

And this was discovered way back in the 1970s by one of my former mentors, Alan Hobson at Harvard.

早在 20 世纪 70 年代，我的一位前导师、哈佛大学的艾伦·霍布森就发现了这一点。

And what this drug may be doing is indirectly boosting the amounts of acetylcholine in the brain, particularly in a region of the brain called the basal forebrain, which is a REM sleep-regulating region.

这种药物的作用可能是间接增加大脑中乙酰胆碱的含量，特别是大脑中称为基底前脑的区域，该区域是快速眼动睡眠调节区域。

And that's the reason that you get boosts in REM sleep.

这就是您的快速眼动睡眠得到提升的原因。

And people also report dreaming a little bit more, too, on those medications.

人们还报告说，服用这些药物后，做梦的次数也会增加一些。

So thermal manipulation, getting you to net neutral thermal zones helps increase REM sleep, but also there are some medications that were not necessarily designed for REM sleep enhancements selectively, but there is evidence that they do that.

因此，热操纵，让你进入净中性热区有助于增加快速眼动睡眠，但也有一些药物不一定是专门为有选择地增强快速眼动睡眠而设计的，但有证据表明它们可以做到这一点。

So if you asked me where are we at with REM, it's certainly more bereft of methods than deep non-REM sleep, but we are starting to find some now.

因此，如果你问我快速眼动睡眠现在处于什么阶段，那么它肯定比深度非快速眼动睡眠更缺乏方法，但我们现在开始找到一些方法。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Given what you just told us about the role of acetylcholine in rapid eye movement sleep, what about taking precursors to acetylcholine?

鉴于您刚才告诉我们乙酰胆碱在快速眼动睡眠中的作用，那么服用乙酰胆碱前体怎么样？

Certainly a good number of them exist.

当然，其中有很多是存在的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Even over-the-counter supplements like alpha-GPC, and then of course there are choline donors and things like that-

甚至像 alpha-GPC 这样的非处方补充剂，当然还有胆碱供体之类的东西 -

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

that can increase cholinergic transmission.

可以增加胆碱能传输。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Does that get into issues of if one does that globally, is it possible that you increase arousal and have trouble falling asleep?

这是否会涉及到这样的问题：如果一个人在全球范围内这样做，你是否可能会增加兴奋度并难以入睡？

Because some of those cholinergic agents-

因为其中一些胆碱能药物——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Can be quite activating

可以相当活跃

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

can be activating.

可以激活。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

So that's one of the problems.

这就是问题之一。

The second is because you're going to have to take them before bed, you may brute force REM sleep to arrive earlier, and you may therefore come at the cost of deep non-REM sleep.

第二个是因为你必须在睡前服用它们，你可能会强制快速眼动睡眠提前到达，因此你可能会以深度非快速眼动睡眠为代价。

And so you'd have to get some kind of timed-release capsule, which you can do.

所以你必须购买某种定时释放胶囊，这是你可以做到的。

You can coat these capsules, and you can get a timed release.

你可以给这些胶囊涂上涂层，然后就可以得到定时释放。

And you would want to take it before bed, and then maybe after about four or five hours, you would want to kick it into gear because now you're in.

你会想在睡觉前服用它，然后也许在大约四五个小时后，你会想开始服用它，因为现在你已经进入了。

So it's a little bit-

所以有点——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Gets tricky

变得棘手

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

gets a bit tricky.

变得有点棘手。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

This is one of the reasons why I personally, this is just my experience, I'm not a fan of supplements that tap into the serotonergic system for sake of sleep.

这就是我个人的原因之一，这只是我的经验，我不喜欢为了睡眠而利用血清素系统的补充剂。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because certainly serotonin plays an important role in sleep.

因为血清素在睡眠中确实发挥着重要作用。

But anytime I've taken something, 5-HTP or something like that to try and improve sleep, I find that I fall asleep and then I wake up very-- Deep sleep, and then I wake up very alert, and I have trouble with the later phases of sleep.

但每当我服用5-HTP或类似的东西来尝试改善睡眠时，我发现我睡着了，然后醒来时非常——深度睡眠，然后我醒来时非常警觉，而且我在睡眠的后期阶段遇到了困难。

And I think that is because, yes, serotonin is involved in sleep, but it's involved in sleep at a very specific point in this, as you refer to it, this symphony or ballet of different sleep stages and how they evolve and interdigitate with one another across the night.

我认为这是因为，是的，血清素与睡眠有关，但它是在一个非常特定的时刻参与睡眠的，正如你所提到的，这是不同睡眠阶段的交响曲或芭蕾舞，以及它们如何在整个晚上演变和相互交叉。

So while I do think there are things that one can use pharmacologically or supplement-based to improve sleep, generally, I like to think of those as the kind of thing that kind of pushes a wave front of the whole sleep process-

因此，虽然我确实认为有人可以使用药物或补充剂来改善睡眠，但一般来说，我喜欢将这些视为推动整个睡眠过程的波前的东西 -

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

as opposed to trying to tap into one specific neurotransmitter within the sleep ballet.

而不是试图利用睡眠芭蕾中的一种特定神经递质。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Exactly, yeah.

没错，是的。

I like that way of thinking, and you do have to be careful.

我喜欢这种思维方式，但你必须小心。

Because in biology, it's often rare that there are any free lunches, in truth.

因为事实上，在生物学中，很少有免费的午餐。

Nature has optimized our system so exquisitely that when you start to try and game the system for one thing, be very mindful that it may come at the cost of something else.

大自然对我们的系统进行了如此精妙的优化，当你开始尝试为了一件事而与系统博弈时，请务必注意，这可能会以其他事情为代价。

And that's why whenever we're doing these types of developments of technologies for sleep, we are very cautious not just to say, did we improve the thing that we're targeting?

这就是为什么每当我们进行此类睡眠技术开发时，我们都非常谨慎，不仅仅是说，我们是否改进了我们的目标？

But first call of business in medicine is not will this drug help you, but firstly, is there any downside in terms of will this drug hurt you?

但医药行业的首要问题不是这种药物会对您有帮助，而是首先，这种药物是否会伤害您？

And then you have to understand the cost ratio benefit between those two things.

然后你必须了解这两件事之间的成本比效益。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Just one more anecdote that is in agreement with what you said.

还有一件轶事与你所说的相符。

Nowadays, there's an increased excitement around peptides, the use of peptides.

如今，人们对肽以及肽的使用越来越感兴趣。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

There is, yeah.

有，是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I currently don't use any, but I did a short run with occasional use of sermorelin, which is a secretagogue, which is a growth hormone.

我目前没有使用任何药物，但我进行了短期试验，偶尔使用舍莫林，它是一种促分泌剂，是一种生长激素。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

That's right.

没错。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It promotes the secretion of growth hormone, not growth hormone itself.

它促进生长激素的分泌，而不是生长激素本身。

I took it not many times, and I was tracking my sleep.

我服用的次数不多，并且正在记录我的睡眠情况。

And what I noticed is it put me into a little bit of a hypnotic state.

我注意到它让我进入了一种催眠状态。

Dreams were very intense, but deep sleep.

梦很强烈，但睡眠很深。

But according to my sleep tracker, and I only ran this for maybe three nights, according to my sleep tracker, it completely eliminated all my rapid eye movement sleep, at least as measured by the sleep tracker.

但根据我的睡眠追踪器，我只运行了大约三个晚上，根据我的睡眠追踪器，它完全消除了我所有的快速眼动睡眠，至少从睡眠追踪器的测量来看是这样。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But the amount of deep sleep, of slow-wave sleep, just massively expanded.

但深度睡眠、慢波睡眠的数量却大大增加了。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So that can't be good.

所以这不太好。

You don't want to mess with that-

你不想惹麻烦-

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

cocktail ratio that we described in the first episode.

我们在第一集中描述的鸡尾酒比例。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

So I see-

所以我明白了——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We presume that it's emerged as the correct Da Vinci code of sleep stage recipes.

我们认为它是睡眠阶段食谱的正确达芬奇密码。

And there may be a time and a place where you want to over-index on one of those things for whatever reason.

并且可能在某个时间和地点，无论出于何种原因，您都想对其中一件事情过度索引。

But to do it consistently and permanently, I would again say if you think within the space of a lifetime that

但要始终如一地、永久地做到这一点，我会再次说，如果你认为在一生的时间内

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

You know something that 2.6 million years of evolution has not understood, chances are you're probably wrong.

你知道一些 260 万年的进化还没有理解的东西，很可能你是错的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I agree.

我同意。

And certainly later in this series, we will touch into some of the over-the-counter supplements and other things that one can do in order to augment sleep that do seem to have some benefit, because there are such things.

当然，在本系列的后面部分，我们将讨论一些非处方补充剂和其他可以用来增强睡眠的东西，这些东西似乎确实有一些好处，因为确实有这样的东西。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But in the meantime, thank you for providing this incredible arc of description of basic sleep hygiene and regularity, light, dark, temperature, getting out of bed when you can't sleep, alcohol, food, caffeine, cannabis, unconventional protocols, and let's call them advanced protocols.

但与此同时，感谢您提供了关于基本睡眠卫生和规律、光线、黑暗、温度、睡不着时起床、酒精、食物、咖啡因、大麻、非常规方案的令人难以置信的描述，我们称之为高级方案。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Electrical protocol, brain stimulation, in other words, thermal manipulation, auditory stimulation, kinesthetic, and then these rapid eye movement-enhancing drugs, and on and on.

电疗法、大脑刺激，换句话说，热操纵、听觉刺激、动觉，然后是这些快速眼动增强药物，等等。

Matt, I can't thank you enough.

马特，我对你感激不尽。

This has been just replete with actionable tools and considerations, and I love that you took us to the cutting edge of what's happening now.

其中充满了可操作的工具和考虑因素，我很高兴您带领我们走在当前正在发生的事情的最前沿。

I think it's wonderful to talk about the history of a field and what was discovered.

我认为谈论一个领域的历史和发现的东西是很棒的。

It's wonderful to talk about the present, but it's wonderful that you've put our eyes a bit into the future of what the technology for sleep enhancement and monitoring holds.

谈论现在真是太棒了，但更棒的是，您让我们着眼于睡眠增强和监测技术的未来。

So once again, thank you.

再次感谢您。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

You're so welcome.

非常欢迎你。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

If folks haven't already seen or listened to episode one, I highly recommend they do.

如果人们还没有看过或听过第一集，我强烈建议他们去看。

And of course, we will be back soon with episode three, which is going to get into all the science and actionable protocols related to napping and caffeine, and some other exciting things that I know impact people's daily lives and that they can get moving on should they choose right away.

当然，我们很快就会回来第三集，这将涉及与小睡和咖啡因相关的所有科学和可操作的协议，以及我知道的其他一些令人兴奋的事情，这些事情会影响人们的日常生活，如果他们立即选择，他们就可以继续前进。

And by moving on, I mean to sleep.

继续前进，我的意思是睡觉。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Thank you again.

再次感谢您。

A delight.

令人高兴。

Cannot wait for the next recording.

等不及下一次录制了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Thank you for joining me for today's episode with Dr. Matthew Walker.

感谢您接受我今天与马修·沃克博士的节目。

To learn more about Dr. Walker's research and to learn more about his book and his social media handles, please see the links in our show note captions.

要了解有关沃克博士的研究的更多信息以及有关他的书和社交媒体处理的更多信息，请参阅我们的节目注释标题中的链接。

If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.

如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。

That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.

这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。

In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify and Apple.

此外，请在 Spotify 和 Apple 上订阅该播客。

And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.

在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。

Please also check out the sponsors at the beginning and throughout today's episode.

还请在今天的节目开始和整个节目中查看赞助商。

That's the best way to support this podcast.

这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。

If you have any questions for me or comments about the podcast or topics or guests that you'd like me to feature on the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.

如果您对我有任何疑问或对您希望我在 Huberman Lab 播客上介绍的播客或主题或嘉宾有任何意见，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。

I do read all the comments.

我确实阅读了所有评论。

On many episodes of the Huberman Lab podcast, we discuss supplements.

在休伯曼实验室播客的许多剧集中，我们讨论了补充剂。

While supplements aren't necessary for everybody, many people derive tremendous benefit from them for things like improving sleep, for hormone support, and for focus.

虽然补充剂并不是每个人都需要的，但许多人从它们中获得了巨大的好处，例如改善睡眠、激素支持和注意力集中。

To learn more about the supplements discussed on the Huberman Lab podcast, go to Live Momentous, spelled O-U-S.

要了解有关 Huberman Lab 播客上讨论的补充剂的更多信息，请访问 Live Momentous（拼写为 O-U-S）。

That's livemomentous.com/huberman.

这是 livemomentous.com/huberman。

If you're not already following me on social media, I'm hubermanlab on all social media platforms, so that's Instagram, X, LinkedIn, Facebook, and Threads.

如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我在所有社交媒体平台上都是 hubermanlab，包括 Instagram、X、LinkedIn、Facebook 和 Threads。

And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content covered on the Huberman Lab podcast.

在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和科学相关工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客涵盖的内容不同。

So again, it's hubermanlab on all social media platforms.

再说一遍，所有社交媒体平台上都是 hubermanlab。

If you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, our Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost newsletter that provides podcast summaries as well as protocols in the form of brief one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from neuroplasticity and learning to sleep, to deliberate cold exposure and deliberate heat exposure.

如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，我们的神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的时事通讯，它提供播客摘要以及简短的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从神经可塑性和学习到睡眠，到有意冷暴露和有意热暴露的所有内容。

We have a foundational fitness protocol and much more.

我们有一个基本的健身协议等等。

All of which, again, is completely zero cost.

再次强调，所有这些都是完全零成本的。

You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab, scroll down to Newsletter, and by supplying your email, you can subscribe.

您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到菜单选项卡，向下滚动到时事通讯，然后提供您的电子邮件即可订阅。

I want to point out that we do not share your email with anybody.

我想指出的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。

Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion all about sleep with Dr. Matthew Walker.

再次感谢您今天与马修·沃克博士一起参与有关睡眠的讨论。

And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。