Guest Series | Dr. Matt Walker: Using Sleep to Improve Learning, Creativity & Memory
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab Guest Series, where I and an expert guest discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到胡伯曼实验室嘉宾系列，我和一位专家嘉宾讨论了日常生活中的科学和基于科学的工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
Today's episode marks the fourth in our six-episode series all about sleep, with expert guest Dr. Matthew Walker.
今天的这一集是我们关于睡眠的六集系列节目的第四集，由专家嘉宾马修·沃克博士主持。
During today's episode, we discuss sleep and learning, as well as the impact of sleep and the specific stages of sleep on creativity and memory.
在今天的节目中，我们讨论睡眠和学习，以及睡眠的影响以及睡眠的特定阶段对创造力和记忆力的影响。
We talk about when and how long to sleep relative to different bouts of learning, as well as the role of naps in consolidating information that you are trying to learn.
我们讨论了相对于不同学习阶段的睡眠时间和睡眠时间，以及小睡在巩固你想要学习的信息方面的作用。
We discuss the science and protocols of sleep as it relates to both cognitive learning and motor learning, and the mechanism by which sleep encodes memories.
我们讨论睡眠的科学和协议，因为它涉及认知学习和运动学习，以及睡眠编码记忆的机制。
As with the previous episodes in this series, today's episode includes information about the biology of sleep, as well as practical tools, that is protocols, in which you can use sleep to improve your learning, memory, and creativity.
与本系列的前几集一样，今天的剧集包括有关睡眠生物学的信息，以及实用工具（即协议），您可以在其中利用睡眠来提高学习、记忆和创造力。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。
Our first sponsor is Helix Sleep.
我们的第一个赞助商是 Helix Sleep。
Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep needs.
Helix Sleep 生产根据您独特的睡眠需求定制的床垫和枕头。
It's abundantly clear that sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance.
显而易见，睡眠是心理健康、身体健康和表现的基础。
When we're getting enough quality sleep, everything in life goes so much better, and when we are not getting enough quality sleep, everything in life is that much more challenging.
当我们获得足够的优质睡眠时，生活中的一切都会变得更好，而当我们没有获得足够的优质睡眠时，生活中的一切都会变得更具挑战性。
Now, one of the key things to getting a great night's sleep is to have the appropriate mattress.
现在，获得良好睡眠的关键之一是拥有合适的床垫。
Everyone, however, has slightly different needs in terms of what would be the optimal mattress for them.
然而，每个人对于最适合自己的床垫的需求略有不同。
Helix understands that people have unique sleep needs, and they've designed a brief two-minute quiz that asks you questions like, "Do you sleep on your back, your side, or your stomach?
Helix 了解人们有独特的睡眠需求，他们设计了一个两分钟的简短测验，询问您以下问题：“您是仰睡、侧睡还是俯睡？
Do you tend to run hot or cold during the night?" Or maybe you don't know the answers to those questions.
你晚上容易发热还是怕冷？”或者也许您不知道这些问题的答案。
If you go to the Helix site and take that brief quiz, they'll match you to a mattress that's optimal for you.
如果您访问 Helix 网站并参加简短的测验，他们将为您匹配最适合您的床垫。
For me, it turned out to be the Dusk, D-U-S-K mattress.
对我来说，它是 Dusk、D-U-S-K 床垫。
It's not too hard, not too soft, and I sleep so much better on my Helix mattress than on any other type of mattress I've used before.
它不太硬，也不太软，而且我在 Helix 床垫上睡得比我以前用过的任何其他类型的床垫都要好得多。
So if you're interested in upgrading your mattress, go to helixsleep.com/huberman, take their brief two-minute sleep quiz, and they'll match you to a customized mattress for you, and you'll get up to $350 off any mattress order and two free pillows.
因此，如果您有兴趣升级您的床垫，请访问 helixsleep.com/huberman，参加他们的两分钟简短睡眠测验，他们将为您匹配定制床垫，并且您可以在任何床垫订单上享受高达 350 美元的优惠，并免费获得两个枕头。
Again, that's helixsleep.com/huberman to save up to $350 off and two free pillows.
再次强调，helixsleep.com/huberman 最多可节省 350 美元，并提供两个免费枕头。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Whoop.
今天的节目也是由 Whoop 为我们带来的。
Whoop is a fitness wearable device that tracks your daily activity and sleep, but also goes beyond that by providing real-time feedback on how to adjust your training and sleep schedule to perform better.
Whoop 是一款健身可穿戴设备，不仅可以跟踪您的日常活动和睡眠，还可以提供有关如何调整训练和睡眠时间表以提高表现的实时反馈。
I've been working with Whoop on their scientific advisory council to try and help advance Whoop's mission of unlocking human performance.
我一直在 Whoop 的科学咨询委员会中与他们合作，努力帮助推进 Whoop 解锁人类表现的使命。
As a Whoop user, I've experienced the health benefits of their technology firsthand for sleep tracking, for monitoring other features of my physiology, and for giving me a lot of feedback about metrics within my brain and body that tell me how hard I should train or not train, and basically point to the things that I'm doing correctly and incorrectly in my daily life that I can adjust using protocols, some of which are actually within the Whoop app.
作为 Whoop 用户，我亲身体验了他们的技术对健康的好处，包括睡眠跟踪、监测我的生理机能的其他功能，以及为我提供大量有关我的大脑和身体指标的反馈，这些反馈告诉我应该训练或不训练，并且基本上指出了我在日常生活中正确和不正确的事情，我可以使用协议进行调整，其中一些实际上是在 Whoop 应用程序中。
Given that many of us have goals such as improving our sleep, building better habits, or just focusing more on our overall health, Whoop is one of the tools that can really help you get personalized data, recommendations, and coaching toward your overall health.
鉴于我们许多人都有改善睡眠、养成更好的习惯或只是更多地关注整体健康等目标，Whoop 是真正可以帮助您获得个性化数据、建议和整体健康指导的工具之一。
In addition to being one of the most accurate sleep trackers in the world, Whoop allows you to recover more quickly and fully from physical exercise and other kinds of stress, and thereby to train more effectively and sleep better.
Whoop 除了是世界上最准确的睡眠追踪器之一之外，还可以让您从体育锻炼和其他压力中更快、更充分地恢复，从而更有效地训练和睡得更好。
If you're interested in trying Whoop, you can go to join.whoop.com/huberman today to get your first month free.
如果您有兴趣尝试 Whoop，您可以立即访问 join.whoop.com/huberman，享受第一个月的免费服务。
Again, that's join.whoop.com/huberman.
同样，这是 join.whoop.com/huberman。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Waking Up.
今天的节目也是由Wakeing Up为我们带来的。
The Waking Up app is a meditation app that offers hundreds of guided meditations, mindfulness trainings, yoga nidra sessions, and more.
Waking Up 应用程序是一款冥想应用程序，提供数百种引导冥想、正念训练、瑜伽休息课程等。
I started meditating over 30 years ago.
我三十多年前开始冥想。
At that time, there wasn't very much science on meditation.
那时，关于冥想的科学还不是很多。
But by now, we know that there's a lot of strong science supporting the fact that a daily meditation practice can improve mood, focus, and alertness, and can reduce stress and improve sleep and overall health.
但到目前为止，我们知道有大量强有力的科学证据支持这样一个事实：每日冥想练习可以改善情绪、注意力和警觉性，并且可以减轻压力、改善睡眠和整体健康。
One thing that I and many others have noticed is that while meditation is excellent for buffering stress, it's oftentimes during periods of stress that we let our meditation practice go.
我和许多其他人注意到的一件事是，虽然冥想对于缓冲压力非常有效，但我们常常在压力时期放弃冥想练习。
The Waking Up app overcomes this by offering meditations of different durations, so they have some longer ones of 30 to 60 minutes, but also some much briefer ones, 10, five, and even one-minute meditations that are known to be effective.
Wake Up 应用程序通过提供不同持续时间的冥想来克服这个问题，因此他们有一些 30 到 60 分钟的较长冥想，但也有一些更短的冥想，即 10 分钟、5 分钟甚至 1 分钟的冥想，这些冥想都是有效的。
So, no matter how busy or stressed you get, you always make time for your meditation practice.
因此，无论你有多忙或多有压力，你总是会抽出时间进行冥想练习。
The fact that they have lots of different types of meditations and yoga nidra sessions and non-sleep deep rest protocols also makes sure that your meditations are kept fresh and interesting.
事实上，他们有许多不同类型的冥想和瑜伽休息课程以及非睡眠深度休息方案，这也确保您的冥想保持新鲜和有趣。
You never get bored of them.
你永远不会对它们感到厌倦。
I personally use the Waking Up app to do a five to ten minute meditation or a non-sleep deep rest protocol, which is similar to yoga nidra, each and every day.
我个人每天都会使用“唤醒”应用程序进行五到十分钟的冥想或非睡眠深度休息方案，这类似于瑜伽休息术。
And if I miss a day, I try and double up the amount of time that I do NSDR, yoga nidra, or meditation the following day.
如果我错过了一天，我会尝试将第二天做 NSDR、瑜伽休息术或冥想的时间加倍。
Yoga nidra and non-sleep deep rest protocols can be done essentially any time of day in order to restore mental and physical vigor.
瑜伽放松术和非睡眠深度休息方案基本上可以在一天中的任何时间进行，以恢复精神和身体活力。
I'll sometimes do one first thing in the morning if I wake up and I feel I didn't get quite enough sleep the previous night.
有时，如果我醒来后觉得前一天晚上睡眠不足，我会做早上的第一件事。
You can also do yoga nidra or NSDR in the middle of the night if you wake up and you're having trouble falling back asleep.
如果您醒来后难以再入睡，您也可以在半夜进行瑜伽休息术或 NSDR。
Sometimes they will allow you to fall back asleep, and if they don't, you'll still feel more refreshed than you would have had you been tossing and turning and worrying about not getting sleep.
有时它们会让你重新入睡，即使不能，你仍然会感觉比你翻来覆去、担心睡不着时更精神焕发。
So NSDR and yoga nidra are terrific for both restoring mental and physical vigor and potentially for restoring sleep that you otherwise would have missed.
因此，NSDR 和瑜伽休息术对于恢复精神和身体活力都非常有效，并且有可能恢复您本来会错过的睡眠。
If you'd like to try the Waking Up app, you can go to wakingup.com/huberman to get a free 30-day trial.
如果您想尝试 Waking Up 应用程序，可以访问 wakingup.com/huberman 获取 30 天免费试用。
Again, that's wakingup.com/huberman.
再说一遍，那就是 wakingup.com/huberman。
And now for my conversation with Dr. Matthew Walker.
现在是我与马修·沃克博士的对话。
Dr. Walker.
沃克博士。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Dr. Huberman.
休伯曼博士。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome back.
欢迎回来。
We have covered a lot of material.
我们已经介绍了很多材料。
First episode of this series, you gave us an overview of sleep and some actionable items about sleep Then in the second episode, you gave us far more actionable items of how to think about one's sleep in a way that leads to very concrete decisions about controlling light, temperature, when to sleep, and then some really in-depth advanced tools-
本系列的第一集，您向我们概述了睡眠和一些有关睡眠的可操作项目。然后在第二集中，您向我们提供了更多可操作的项目，告诉我们如何思考一个人的睡眠，从而得出有关控制光线、温度、何时睡觉的非常具体的决定，然后是一些非常深入的高级工具-
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or protocols, as we call them.
或我们所说的协议。
And then in the third episode, we talked about caffeine and napping, and some other things that people can do to really supercharge their alertness through sleep augmentation in the daytime.
然后在第三集中，我们讨论了咖啡因和小睡，以及人们可以做的其他一些事情，通过白天的睡眠增强来真正增强他们的警觉性。
And today, we're going to talk about sleep, learning and memory, and a topic that I know everybody is very interested in, creativity.
今天，我们将讨论睡眠、学习和记忆，以及我知道每个人都非常感兴趣的话题：创造力。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Indeed.
确实如此。
Resplendent pleasure to be back on the show.
很高兴回到演出中。
Thank you for having me.
谢谢你有我。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
So I think nowadays most people understand that there's some relationship between sleep and learning.
所以我想现在大多数人都明白睡眠和学习之间存在某种关系。
But I think it would still be a good idea for us to zoom out a bit and establish what that relationship is.
但我认为对我们来说，稍微缩小范围并建立这种关系仍然是一个好主意。
I think most people are familiar with being exposed to some new material, cognitive material, physical skill material, and not being able to learn it right away, but then having a few days in between, and then all of a sudden, voilà.
我认为大多数人都熟悉接触一些新材料、认知材料、身体技能材料，但不能立即学习，而是需要几天的时间，然后突然之间，瞧。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The skill has been embedded it seems.
看来这项技能已经被嵌入了。
But not obvious in that scenario is that sleep is perhaps the pivotal event that allowed the learning process to take place.
但在这种情况下并不明显的是，睡眠可能是允许学习过程发生的关键事件。
So how do you think about sleep as it relates to learning and memory?
那么您如何看待睡眠与学习和记忆的关系呢？
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
I think I've conceptualized it in three different stages or three different buckets of a benefit.
我想我已经将其概念化为三个不同的阶段或三个不同的好处。
The first is that we need sleep before learning to prepare your brain to initially imprint and lay those memory traces down.
首先，我们需要睡眠，然后才能学习让大脑做好最初印记并留下这些记忆痕迹的准备。
But then you need to sleep after learning to take those sort of freshly minted memories and then save them and cement them into the brain so that you don't lose them.
但是，在学习如何获取这些新鲜的记忆之后，你需要睡觉，然后保存它们并将它们牢固地融入大脑，这样你就不会丢失它们。
The third domain is that sleep will then take those new memories that you've been learning, and it will start to collide them with all of this back catalog of information that you've already got stored in your brain, and it updates the iOS of your informational systems so that then you come back the next day, and you have a better abled ability to understand how the world works.
第三个领域是，睡眠会带走你一直在学习的新记忆，它会开始将它们与你已经存储在大脑中的所有这些后台信息进行碰撞，它会更新你的信息系统的 iOS，这样你第二天回来时，你就能更好地理解世界是如何运作的。
In other words, the difference between knowledge, which is learning the facts, and wisdom, which is knowing what it all means when you put it together.
换句话说，知识是学习事实，而智慧是知道当你把它们放在一起时意味着什么。
That's the third category.
这是第三类。
And why is that beneficial?
为什么这有好处？
Because it provides you with creative insights.
因为它为您提供创造性的见解。
And so we will perhaps just double-click on each of those three, and I can expand them because the data behind them is utterly fascinating.
因此，我们也许只需双击这三个中的每一个，我就可以展开它们，因为它们背后的数据非常令人着迷。
As you said, I think many people subjectively have a sense that sleep helps me with my memory in some way.
正如你所说，我认为很多人主观上都认为睡眠在某种程度上有助于我的记忆。
But in what way?
但以什么方式呢？
And for people, I think one of the things that you do here is not just protocols, but you help explain the conceptual understanding or the conceptual mechanisms underlying the reasons for all of these protocols, and I would love to dive into detail.
对于人们来说，我认为你在这里所做的一件事不仅仅是协议，而是帮助解释所有这些协议背后的概念理解或概念机制，我很乐意深入探讨细节。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So let's do that.
那么让我们这样做吧。
Let's talk about this business of sleeping before learning, essentially establishing a milieu within the brain that is-
让我们来谈谈学习前睡觉的事，本质上是在大脑中建立一个环境，那就是——
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
optimal for learning.
最适合学习。
What is that about neurochemically at the level of circuits, and what is the evidence that providing some, I don't know, additional sleep or just adequate sleep prior to the exposure to the new material-
神经回路层面的神经化学是什么？有什么证据表明在接触新材料之前提供一些我不知道的额外睡眠或充足的睡眠——
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
can be beneficial?
可以有好处吗？
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah, I love that word, that optimal milieu, and it beautifully describes what we've found.
是的，我喜欢这个词，“最佳环境”，它完美地描述了我们的发现。
We started off asking a very simple question at my sleep center, is pulling the all-nighter a wise idea?
我们首先在我的睡眠中心问了一个非常简单的问题：熬夜是一个明智的主意吗？
So we took a group of perfectly healthy, smart individuals, and we assigned them to one of two experimental groups, a sleep group and a sleep deprivation group.
因此，我们选取了一群完全健康、聪明的人，并将他们分配到两个实验组中的一个：睡眠组和睡眠剥夺组。
And both of those groups went through those two different protocols, and then the next day after sleep or after no sleep, we put them inside of a brain scanner, and we had them try and learn a whole list of new facts as we were taking snapshots of brain activity.
这两组人都经历了这两种不同的方案，然后第二天在睡觉后或没有睡觉后，我们将他们放入脑部扫描仪中，让他们在拍摄大脑活动快照时尝试学习一整套新事实。
And then we tested them to see how effective that learning had been.
然后我们对它们进行了测试，看看学习的效果如何。
When we looked at the group that had had a full night of sleep, they had incredibly efficient learning capacity.
当我们观察那些睡了一整晚的人时，他们的学习能力非常高效。
So in other words, they had learned and imprinted that information initially very well.
换句话说，他们最初很好地学习并记住了这些信息。
When we looked at the sleep deprivation group, not so much.
当我们观察睡眠剥夺组时，情况并没有那么严重。
In fact, there was a 40% deficit in the ability of the brain to make new memories without sleep.
事实上，在不睡觉的情况下，大脑创造新记忆的能力会下降 40%。
And we've used lots of different types.
我们使用了很多不同的类型。
We've replicated that now.
我们现在已经复制了这一点。
We've had visual information.
我们已经有了视觉信息。
We've had textbook-like information.
我们已经掌握了教科书般的信息。
And the range is somewhere between 20% to 40%.
范围在 20% 到 40% 之间。
I find that, by the way, striking, and we can come back to this based on what we are seeing in our educational systems right now.
顺便说一句，我发现这很引人注目，我们可以根据我们现在在教育系统中看到的情况来回到这一点。
There is this paucity of sleep because of this model of early school start times, and I'll explain exactly what's happened there and what we've been doing to try to change that.
由于这种提前开学的模式，人们睡眠不足，我将准确解释那里发生的事情以及我们一直在努力改变这种情况。
But coming back to those two groups, the sleep group and the sleep deprivation group, what was going on, as you said, inside of the brain that would help us understand why they couldn't learn or at least couldn't learn effectively?
但回到这两组，睡眠组和睡眠剥夺组，正如你所说，大脑内部发生了什么可以帮助我们理解为什么他们不能学习或至少不能有效地学习？
And the structure that we focused on is one you've spoken about before called the hippocampus And you have one on the left side and the right side of your brain.
我们关注的结构是你之前提到过的一个叫做海马体的结构，你的大脑的左侧和右侧都有一个。
It looks like a long cigar that runs down the left and right side of your brain.
它看起来像一根长雪茄，沿着你大脑的左右两侧流过。
And people listening can think of the hippocampus almost like the informational inbox of your brain.
听的人可以将海马体想象成大脑的信息收件箱。
It's very good at receiving new memory files and then holding onto them.
它非常擅长接收新的内存文件并保留它们。
And when we looked at that structure and its activity during learning in the sleep group, they had wonderful, powerful activation of the hippocampus, as if it was gobbling up all of that new information into the inbox.
当我们观察睡眠组学习过程中的这种结构及其活动时，他们的海马体发生了奇妙而强大的激活，就好像它正在将所有新信息吞噬到收件箱中一样。
When we looked at the sleep deprivation group, however, we couldn't find any significant signal whatsoever.
然而，当我们观察睡眠剥夺组时，我们找不到任何显着的信号。
So it was almost as though sleep deprivation had shut down the memory inbox, and any new incoming files, they were just being bounced.
因此，就好像睡眠不足关闭了记忆收件箱，任何新传入的文件都只是被退回。
You couldn't effectively commit new experiences to memory.
你无法有效地将新的经历牢记在心。
And then subsequent studies that were not done by us, but looking at animal models, they were looking at how able the synapses are in that memory structure, the hippocampus, how capable those synapses are for building new connections.
随后的研究不是由我们完成的，而是通过动物模型进行的，他们正在研究突触在记忆结构（海马体）中的能力，以及这些突触建立新连接的能力。
And the synapses are just those connections between neurons, and we think that part of the way that we make memories is by strengthening the connection in the memory circuit itself.
突触只是神经元之间的连接，我们认为我们创造记忆的部分方式是通过加强记忆回路本身的连接。
And what they found was that when they restricted the sleep of these rats or the mice, that part of the brain became very stubborn.
他们发现，当他们限制这些大鼠或小鼠的睡眠时，大脑的这一部分变得非常顽固。
It just wouldn't form those new synaptic connections.
它只是不会形成那些新的突触连接。
It's something that we call synaptic plasticity.
这就是我们所说的突触可塑性。
So we started to understand this was the bad that happened when you take sleep away.
所以我们开始明白，这就是当你剥夺睡眠时所发生的坏事。
But let's come back to that control group that I said got a full night of sleep.
但让我们回到我所说的对照组，他们睡了一整夜。
Exactly what is it about sleep when you do get it that seems to support and promote your learning ability?
当你确实得到睡眠时，它到底是如何支持和促进你的学习能力的呢？
So we decided to do another different study.
所以我们决定进行另一项不同的研究。
Instead of manipulating sleep by dialing it down, we instead tried to dial it up by way of a daytime nap.
我们没有通过减少睡眠来控制睡眠，而是尝试通过白天小睡来增加睡眠。
And again, we took two groups, and we had them initially learn, again, a huge amount of factual information.
同样，我们分为两组，我们让他们最初再次学习了大量的事实信息。
They learned it over and over and over again.
他们一遍又一遍地学习。
And then we brought them back six hours later at 6:00 PM, and now we had them learn a whole new set of information.
然后我们在六个小时后的下午 6:00 将他们带回来，现在我们让他们了解了一套全新的信息。
And after each one of those fresh, novel learning sessions, we tested them to see how effective that learning had been again.
在每一次新鲜、新颖的学习课程结束后，我们都会对它们进行测试，看看学习的效果如何。
One of those groups spent that six hours of time awake, doing just relaxing activities.
其中一组在六个小时的时间内保持清醒，只是进行放松活动。
The other group was able to obtain a 90-minute nap, and we used that 90-minute nap to allow them to go through a full sort of average cycle to get some non-REM and to get some REM.
另一组能够获得 90 分钟的小睡，我们利用这 90 分钟的小睡让他们经历一个完整的平均周期，以获得一些非快速眼动睡眠和一些快速眼动睡眠。
And what was interesting is that when we tested the group that remained awake later that following day, their learning capacity had declined.
有趣的是，当我们测试第二天晚些时候仍然保持清醒的小组时，他们的学习能力下降了。
But in the nap group, it seemed to restore the brain's capacity to learn, and you didn't get that decline in memory.
但在午睡组中，它似乎恢复了大脑的学习能力，并且记忆力没有下降。
In fact, if anything, you got a little boost.
事实上，如果说有什么不同的话，那就是你得到了一点提升。
And the difference between those two is about 20%, which is quite a nice benefit.
两者之间的差异约为 20%，这是一个相当不错的好处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, not trivial.
是的，这不是小事。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Not trivial at all.
一点也不琐碎。
And then we said, okay, well, if sleep is doing something, what is it about that sleep?
然后我们说，好吧，如果睡眠有作用，那么睡眠有什么作用呢？
So we unpacked the physiology of sleep and the different stages of sleep that we discussed in the first episode.
因此，我们解开了第一集中讨论的睡眠生理学和睡眠的不同阶段。
And what we found was that it was the non-rapid eye movement sleep, or the non-REM sleep, and particularly those sleep spindles, those short bursts of electrical activity that we have discussed before, that seemed to predict how restored and refreshed your learning ability was.
我们发现，非快速眼动睡眠或非快速眼动睡眠，尤其是那些睡眠纺锤波，即我们之前讨论过的那些短暂的电活动，似乎可以预测你的学习能力的恢复和更新程度。
And the best way that I've been thinking about this in terms of sleep restoring or refreshing your encoding ability, and it's a crass analogy, and I don't mean to make a direct brain-to-computer analogy, but think of that hippocampus almost like a USB stick.
我一直在思考这个问题的最佳方式是通过睡眠恢复或刷新你的编码能力，这是一个粗俗的类比，我并不是想直接进行大脑与计算机的类比，而是将海马体想象成一个 USB 记忆棒。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
That's very good during the day at going around and grabbing new files, but it has a limited storage capacity.
这在白天非常适合四处走动并抓取新文件，但它的存储容量有限。
And what sleep was doing seemed to be shifting those memories from the USB stick of your hippocampus over up to the cortex, which you can think of almost like your hard drive, a much bigger storage capacity.
睡眠的作用似乎是将这些记忆从海马体的 USB 记忆棒转移到皮层，你可以将皮层想象成硬盘，具有更大的存储容量。
And by way of doing that, when you woke up after the nap or after a full night of sleep, you had this cleared out USB stick.
通过这样做，当您在午睡后或一整夜的睡眠后醒来时，您就可以清除这个 USB 记忆棒了。
So what could you do?
那么你能做什么呢？
You could go around and start acquiring all these new files again.
您可以四处走动并再次开始获取所有这些新文件。
So that started to teach us a little bit about why sleep before learning is critical, but also mechanistically how sleep is doing this remarkable work of memory restoration.
因此，这开始告诉我们为什么学习前睡眠很重要，而且从机制上讲，睡眠是如何发挥记忆恢复这一非凡作用的。
We then wanted to say, well, can we translate this out into the real world?
然后我们想说，我们可以将其转化为现实世界吗？
And I think there are two regions that we've moved this work out into.
我认为我们已经将这项工作转移到了两个地区。
One is education, one is medicine and Alzheimer's disease.
一是教育，一是医学和阿尔茨海默病。
But the education piece was very interesting.
但教育作品非常有趣。
In the United States, I think the last time I checked, the average school start time is somewhere around 7:30, 7:45.
在美国，我想我上次检查时，平均开学时间约为 7:30、7:45。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sounds about right.
听起来不错。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
And if you think about that for 7:30 school start times, school buses will begin leaving around 5:30, 5:45 in the morning.
如果您考虑一下 7:30 的学校上课时间，校车将在早上 5:30、5:45 左右开始出发。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
That means that some kids are having to wake up at 5:00 AM, maybe even earlier.
这意味着有些孩子必须在凌晨 5:00 起床，甚至可能更早。
This is lunacy when you think about it.
当你想到这一点时，这真是疯狂。
And there's a great study in Edna, I hope I'm pronouncing that correct, Edna, which is a small suburb, or it sits in a small suburb outside of Minneapolis in Minnesota.
埃德娜有一项很棒的研究，我希望我的发音是正确的，埃德娜，这是一个小郊区，或者它位于明尼苏达州明尼阿波利斯郊外的一个小郊区。
And they shifted their school start times from 7:25 to 8:30 in the morning.
他们还将开学时间从早上 7:25 改为 8:30。
And then they wanted to ask what is the consequence of that on the academic performance of their students.
然后他们想知道这对学生的学习成绩有何影响。
And the metric that they used in these teenagers that they were focusing on was something called the SAT score, which is a score I had to learn when I first came to the United States.
他们在这些青少年身上使用的衡量标准是 SAT 分数，这是我刚来美国时必须学习的分数。
Is a critical assessment test that will largely determine which university you go to.
是一项关键的评估测试，将在很大程度上决定您去哪所大学。
And they did an analysis, which was clever.
他们做了一个分析，这是很聪明的。
They focused on the top 10% performing students, which you could argue those are the ones that are closest to the ceiling performance and the hardest to expect any benefit from sleep.
他们关注的是表现最好的 10% 学生，你可以说这些学生的表现最接近上限，也是最难指望从睡眠中获益的学生。
So in the year before they made the time change, the average score of those top 10% performing students was 1,288, which turns out to be a pretty good SAT score.
所以在他们改变时间的前一年，那些表现最好的10%学生的平均成绩是1,288，结果证明这是一个相当不错的SAT成绩。
The following year after they made the time change, the average score for that top 10% was 1,500.
更改时间后的第二年，前 10% 的平均分数为 1,500。
That difference is non-trivial, and it will change exactly where those individuals will go to university in terms of the tier of the university and likely change the trajectory of their lives-
这种差异是非同小可的，它将准确地改变这些人将在大学的哪个级别上大学，并可能改变他们的生活轨迹——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing
太棒了
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
...
...
as a consequence.
结果。
Now, some people have argued that data, in terms of its source and its reliability may not have necessarily been accurate, but now we've got very consistent data.
现在，有些人认为数据的来源和可靠性可能不一定准确，但现在我们得到了非常一致的数据。
When you start school times later, academic grades improve, psychological and psychiatric problems decrease, truancy rates decrease.
当你推迟上学时间时，学业成绩会提高，心理和精神问题会减少，逃学率也会降低。
But something else happened in that story of later school start times that we didn't expect, which was that the life expectancy of students increased.
但在开学时间推迟的故事中还发生了一些我们没有预料到的事情，那就是学生的预期寿命增加了。
And you think, "Well, hang on a second.
你会想：“好吧，等一下。
How do you determine that?" The number one cause of death in teenagers 16 to 18 is actually not suicide.
你如何确定这一点？” 16至18岁青少年的第一大死因实际上并不是自杀。
Turns out to be second.
原来是第二名。
It's road traffic accidents.
这是道路交通事故。
And here, sleep matters enormously.
在这里，睡眠非常重要。
There was another great example from Teton County in Wyoming, and they shifted their school start times from I think it was 7:35 in the morning to 8:55.
怀俄明州提顿县还有一个很好的例子，他们将学校的上课时间从早上 7:35 改为 8:55。
And the only thing more remarkable than the extra one hour of sleep those kids reported getting was the drop in car accidents.
孩子们报告说，除了多睡一小时之外，唯一更引人注目的是车祸的减少。
That following year, there was a 70% reduction in car crashes in that age range of 16 to 18.
第二年，16 至 18 岁年龄段的车祸减少了 70%。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What time are they getting out of school?
他们几点放学？
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Well, they will probably be ejected out of school, that's another interesting part, by the way, maybe around 4:30.
嗯，他们可能会被赶出学校，这是另一个有趣的部分，顺便说一句，可能是在 4:30 左右。
And people have said, "Well, look, all of this idea of later school start times, it means that it's going to cost us more because you've got to change the school bus system," and they've argued pushback against that.
人们说，“好吧，看，所有这些推迟开学时间的想法，这意味着我们将花费更多，因为你必须改变校车系统，”他们对此表示反对。
And I would say probably two things.
我可能会说两件事。
First, I know it's difficult, and I'm not saying it's an easy problem to do.
首先，我知道这很困难，但我并不是说这是一个容易做的问题。
It's a complex problem.
这是一个复杂的问题。
And I'm sympathetic to that, but I think we've put people on the Moon, and so I suspect that we can also solve the problem of early school start times.
我对此表示同情，但我认为我们已经把人送上了月球，所以我怀疑我们也可以解决提早开学时间的问题。
The other component of that is what are we doing as educators?
另一个组成部分是我们作为教育工作者在做什么？
If our goal as educators is truly to educate and not risk lives in the process, then we are failing our children in a most spectacular manner with this incessant model of early school start times.
如果我们作为教育工作者的目标确实是教育而不是在此过程中冒生命危险，那么我们就会以一种最惊人的方式让我们的孩子失望，这种持续不断的提前开学的模式。
And if you look at the data, it's very clear.
如果你看一下数据，那就非常清楚了。
When sleep is abundant, minds flourish, and when it's not, they don't.
当睡眠充足时，头脑就会活跃起来，而当睡眠不足时，头脑就不会活跃起来。
And so that's the reason why myself and a whole group of sleep scientists, we started to try to create a movement for later school start times, and we got this bill passed, firstly in California, and we got it on the governor's desk at the time.
这就是为什么我自己和一整群睡眠科学家开始尝试发起一项推迟开学时间的运动，我们首先在加利福尼亚州通过了这项法案，并把它放在了当时州长的办公桌上。
It was Governor Brown.
是布朗州长。
And unfortunately, he didn't sign it into law.
不幸的是，他没有将其签署成为法律。
Then when the organization changed and Governor Newsom came in as governor of California, we got the bill back on his desk, and he did sign it.
然后，当组织发生变化，纽瑟姆州长就任加利福尼亚州州长时，我们将法案放回到他的办公桌上，他确实签署了。
And then, the next state to go was New York.
然后，下一个要去的州是纽约。
They started to put in legislation for recommendations for later school start times.
他们开始立法建议推迟开学时间。
I think Florida is about to fall as well in that regard.
我认为佛罗里达州在这方面也即将下降。
So there's gradual movement happening, but it's hard-fought, and it's problematic.
因此，运动正在逐渐发生，但这是一场艰苦的斗争，而且存在问题。
I still think that it's impossible to deny that data.
我仍然认为无法否认这些数据。
It was an interesting thing.
这是一件有趣的事情。
I remember when I was a professor back at Harvard, we were doing this work on sleep and learning.
我记得当我还是哈佛大学教授时，我们正在做有关睡眠和学习的工作。
And it was sort of published in these sort of kindly, I don't know how we did it, but in nice journals.
它是在一些不错的期刊上发表的，我不知道我们是怎么做到的。
And they said, "Okay, based on the media traction, would you write an editorial for the Harvard newspaper?" Which was called "The Harvard Crimson." And I said, "I'd love to." So at first I thought, I'm just going to write a straight piece about sleep and memory and why it's important.
他们说：“好吧，根据媒体的关注，你愿意为哈佛报纸写一篇社论吗？”这被称为“哈佛深红”。我说：“我很乐意。”所以一开始我想，我只想写一篇关于睡眠和记忆以及为什么它很重要的文章。
Then I realized, no, there's a better opportunity because teaching there, and you know this as well as I do, there is this bizarre system where we teach for an entire semester, and then we end load the semester full of exams in this stressful two-week period.
然后我意识到，不，有一个更好的机会，因为在那里教书，你和我一样知道这一点，有一个奇怪的系统，我们教整个学期，然后我们在这紧张的两周时间里让整个学期充满考试。
And what do you think is going to happen?
你认为会发生什么？
They're not going to sleep, especially at a time when they're trying to cram information.
他们不会睡觉，尤其是在他们试图塞进信息的时候。
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right, especially in college where you don't actually have the material four weeks before, so there's not really the option to learn it in advance.
是的，尤其是在大学里，四个星期前你实际上并没有这些材料，所以实际上没有提前学习的选择。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Everything about university to me was about getting a bunch of information and needing to incorporate it very quickly and then move to the next item.
对我来说，关于大学的一切都是关于获取一堆信息并需要快速整合它，然后转到下一个项目。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Right.
对。
Next item.
下一项。
And then all of a sudden, there's this cataclysmic moment at the end of the semester, and you are supposed to regurgitate this by cramming everything into your brain-
然后突然之间，学期结束时出现了一个灾难性的时刻，你应该通过将所有内容都塞进你的大脑来反省这一时刻——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
...
...
in this sleepless two-week period.
在这不眠的两周里。
So rather than saying, look, the students need to change their behavior, they need to understand this is a problem, it's not their fault I said, "It's us as educators and administrators, we have created a system that forces them to undergo deliberate sleep deprivation, and we are educating them amnesic quite literally."
因此，我不是说，看，学生们需要改变他们的行为，他们需要明白这是一个问题，这不是他们的错，我说，“是我们作为教育者和管理者，我们创建了一个系统，迫使他们故意剥夺睡眠，我们正在教育他们失忆。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
So I put this editorial out.
所以我把这篇社论发表了。
It received a rather Baltic, if not Arctic, response, and that was the last editorial I was ever invited to write for the newspaper.
它得到了相当波罗的海（如果不是北极）的回应，这是我受邀为该报撰写的最后一篇社论。
But you've got to say your piece.
但你必须说出你的观点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, so but I'm curious why there's resistance to shifting to later school times and to improving the conditions for learning if the goal is to learn.
好吧，但是我很好奇，如果目标是学习，为什么推迟上课时间和改善学习条件会受到阻力。
Tradition dies hard.
传统很难消亡。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe that's why.
也许这就是原因。
I think there's also the idea, certainly in the medical profession, that while when I was doing my training, we would pull all-nighters all the time.
我认为还有一种想法，当然是在医学界，当我接受训练时，我们会一直通宵工作。
And so the idea then is that it's just part of the self-directed hazing process that is getting a degree, that you're going to be doing a lot of all-nighters and cramming and things of that sort.
所以我们的想法是，这只是获得学位的自我引导过程的一部分，你将要做很多通宵、临时抱佛脚之类的事情。
Is that why you think motivates the resistance to change?
您认为这就是抵制变革的原因吗？
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
I think so.
我想是的。
I think you've hit all the points.
我想你已经抓住了所有要点。
I think zeitgeists die one generation at a time, and we see that resistance certainly there, too.
我认为时代精神一代一代地消失，我们也看到这种抵抗肯定存在。
I also think that when you come back to later school start times, they have suggested that there is this cost when they tally it up.
我还认为，当你回到较晚的开学时间时，他们会建议在统计时存在这笔费用。
But you made a point, which is when do they get out of school?
但你提出了一个观点，那就是他们什么时候放学？
And let's say it's around 4:30.
假设现在是 4:30 左右。
One of the interesting analyses that was published, and we latched onto this, that is this strange bewitching hour when kids get out of school, but often their parents are not home to work.
发表的一项有趣的分析，我们抓住了这一点，那就是孩子们放学时的这个奇怪而迷人的时刻，但他们的父母通常不在家工作。
And if you look at the teenage crime rate and you look at when those crimes are committed, it's usually in that bewitching hour after they get out of school, but they don't have a home or parents yet to go to that it's filled.
如果你看看青少年的犯罪率，看看这些犯罪发生的时间，通常是在他们放学后那个令人着迷的时刻，但他们还没有家，也没有父母可以去，那里已经挤满了人。
But by pushing school start times later, they get out later, they go home, and if you were to even half that debt that those crimes cause, you would easily pay for the education system.
但通过推迟开学时间，他们放学的时间会晚一些，回家的时间也会晚一些，如果你要承担这些犯罪造成的债务的一半，你就可以轻松地为教育系统买单。
So it's very interesting.
所以这很有趣。
I think that also notion of, well, we went through it and here I am, so you can go through it, too, is very prevalent in medicine.
我认为，“好吧，我们经历过它，我在这里，所以你也可以经历它”的概念在医学中也很普遍。
This is another good example.
这是另一个很好的例子。
We and mostly colleagues of mine, such as Charles Czeisler at Harvard, have really done a great job at cataloging exactly why we need to abandon this resident program, which has a fascinating history, by the way, which is young residents should be working 30-hour shifts, often without any sleep whatsoever.
我们和我的大部分同事，比如哈佛大学的 Charles Czeisler，在明确为什么我们需要放弃这个住院医师计划方面做得非常出色，顺便说一句，这个项目有着一段令人着迷的历史，即年轻的住院医师应该轮班工作 30 小时，而且常常不睡觉。
And when you look at that data, residents who are working a 30-hour shift are going to be almost 460% more likely to make diagnostic errors in the intensive care unit.
当你查看这些数据时，会发现轮班 30 小时的住院医生在重症监护病房出现诊断错误的可能性几乎高出 460%。
If you have a surgeon and you're getting elective surgery who's had less than six hours of sleep in the previous 24, they are almost 70% more likely to cause a surgical error, which could result in nontrivial consequences.
如果您的外科医生在您接受择期手术时，在过去 24 小时内睡眠时间少于 6 小时，那么他们造成手术错误的可能性几乎高出 70%，这可能会导致严重的后果。
And then the irony is that when young residents, after a 30-hour shift, get back into their car at the end of the shift and drive home, there is 168% increased risk that they get into a car accident and then end up back in the ER from where they just came, but now as a patient rather than a physician.
具有讽刺意味的是，当年轻居民在轮班 30 小时后回到自己的车并开车回家时，他们发生车祸并最终从刚来的地方回到急诊室的风险增加了 168%，但现在他们是作为病人而不是医生。
And you think, what are we doing?
你想，我们在做什么？
Charles Czeisler, I think, has described they provided this evidence to the council, and at first, I think the idea was, look, our minds are made up.
我认为查尔斯·蔡斯勒（Charles Czeisler）描述了他们向委员会提供了这些证据，起初，我认为这个想法是，看，我们的主意已经决定了。
Don't confuse me with the data.
不要用数据来混淆我。
And when you appeal on the empathetic basis, but it wasn't well-received.
当你以同理心为基础提出上诉时，却没有得到很好的回应。
So then if you go back and you say, "No, I'm going to give you a different argument.
所以如果你回去说：“不，我会给你一个不同的论点。
If you look at the cost of malpractice caused by insufficient sleep," and if you get the administrators into the room, all of a sudden, the schedules change.
如果你看看睡眠不足造成的医疗事故的成本，”如果你让管理员进入房间，突然之间，时间表就会改变。
So then based on that data, there was a policy that you couldn't work any longer than, I think it was a 16-hour continuous shift.
因此，根据这些数据，有一项政策规定，你不能工作超过 16 小时的连续轮班时间。
The problem was that they only said that that was apparent for the first-year residents and not the remaining years.
问题是他们只说这对于第一年的居民来说是显而易见的，而不是剩下的几年。
And the question was, well, why?
问题是，为什么？
They said, "Well, the data that you showed us, you only collected in first-year residents." As if something magical is going to happen when you become a second-year resident and you don this Teflon coat of immunity against sleep deprivation.
他们说，“好吧，你向我们展示的数据，你只收集了一年级住院医师。”当你成为第二年住院医师并穿上这件针对睡眠不足的免疫外衣时，仿佛会发生一些神奇的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, if anything, it would compound and get worse.
好吧，如果有的话，它会复合并变得更糟。
So it seems to me that there's zero question that getting adequate sleep is good for learning.
所以在我看来，充足的睡眠对学习有好处是毫无疑问的。
But when it's high risk, high consequences scenarios or even high consequence scenarios, like a medical situation-
但当它是高风险、高后果的情况甚至是高后果的情况时，比如医疗情况——
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it just seems like it should almost come down to legal liability.
看起来这几乎应该归结为法律责任。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。
AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also contains adaptogens and is designed to meet all of your foundational nutritional needs.
AG1 是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮料，还含有适应原，旨在满足您的所有基本营养需求。
By now, I'm sure you've all heard me say that I've been taking AG1 since 2012, and indeed, that is true.
到现在为止，我相信你们都听我说过，我从 2012 年就开始服用 AG1，确实如此。
Now, of course, I do consume regular whole foods every day.
当然，现在我每天都会定期食用天然食品。
I strive to get those foods mostly from unprocessed or minimally processed sources.
我努力从未加工或最低限度加工的来源获取这些食物。
However, I do find it hard to get enough servings of fruits and vegetables each day.
然而，我确实发现每天很难获得足够的水果和蔬菜。
So with AG1, I ensure that I get enough of the vitamins, minerals, prebiotic fiber, and other things typically found in fruits or vegetables, and of course, I still make sure to eat fruits and vegetables.
因此，通过 AG1，我确保获得足够的维生素、矿物质、益生元纤维以及水果或蔬菜中常见的其他物质，当然，我仍然确保吃水果和蔬菜。
And in that way, provide a sort of insurance that I'm getting enough of what I need.
通过这种方式，提供一种保险，让我得到足够的我需要的东西。
In addition, the adaptogens and other micronutrients in AG1 really help buffer against stress and ensure that the cells and organs and tissues of my body are getting the things they need.
此外，AG1 中的适应原和其他微量营养素确实有助于缓冲压力，并确保我身体的细胞、器官和组织得到它们所需的东西。
People often ask me that if they were going to take just one supplement, what that supplement should be, and I always answer AG1.
人们经常问我，如果他们只服用一种补充剂，该补充剂应该是什么，我总是回答 AG1。
If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。
You'll get five free travel packs plus a year's supply of vitamin D3K2.
您将获得五个免费旅行包以及一年的维生素 D3K2 供应。
Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman.
再说一遍，这是 Drinkag1.com/huberman。
So are the errors of sleep deprivation in these scenarios, both in students and in medical professionals, are they due to errors in memory per se?
那么，在这些情况下，无论是学生还是医疗专业人员，睡眠不足的错误是否都是由于记忆本身的错误造成的？
Because you can imagine all sorts of errors.
因为你可以想象各种错误。
So with a surgeon, they cut the wrong thing or they cut-
所以对于外科医生来说，他们会切错东西，或者他们会切——
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
too far, the margin on the surgical site is too big, et cetera.
太远、手术部位的边缘太大等等。
But since we're talking about learning and memory and its relationship to sleep, is it that people are forgetting what they did?
但既然我们谈论的是学习和记忆及其与睡眠的关系，那么人们是否正在忘记他们做了什么？
Are they forgetting what they didn't do?
他们是否忘记了自己没有做过的事情？
Or is it a deficit in motor skills, or all of the above?
或者是运动技能的缺陷，还是以上所有原因？
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
It's all of the above plus, which is that learning and memory or recollection of both what you did or what you need to do or what you should do based on your training is going to be compromised because your recall of that information, it turns out, is also compromised.
除上述所有因素外，根据你的训练，你对你所做的事情、你需要做的事情或你应该做的事情的学习和记忆或回忆都会受到影响，因为事实证明，你对这些信息的回忆也会受到影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
But it's also decision-making, too, that what we know is that your frontal lobe is especially sensitive to a lack of sleep, and it's that frontal lobe that really takes complex situations, distills them down, and comes up with the correct output scenario of decisions that you need to make.
但这也是决策，我们知道，你的额叶对睡眠不足特别敏感，正是额叶真正处理复杂的情况，将其提炼出来，并提出你需要做出的正确决策的输出场景。
Not so much when you're sleep deprived.
当你睡眠不足时就不那么重要了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So how should I establish the proper neural milieu for learning by sleeping prior?
那么我应该如何通过提前睡觉来建立适当的神经环境来学习呢？
In an ideal world, I get an excellent night's sleep for every day of my life leading up to a bout of learning.
在理想的世界里，我每天都能睡个好觉，然后开始学习。
And here I'm referring to a bout of learning as being exposed to new material.
在这里，我指的是接触新材料的一次学习。
But life happens.
但生活总会发生。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So if I know that tomorrow I'm going to take a class in something or I'm going to need to perform a skill that it's a pretty nascent skill for me, I only learned it recently, what should I do the night before?
因此，如果我知道明天我要参加某门课程，或者我需要执行一项技能，这对我来说是一项相当初级的技能，我最近才学会，那么前一天晚上我应该做什么？
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
I would say think about what you can get in terms of your sleep under current conditions and understand that staying awake and forgoing sleep is not the right equation that you may think.
我想说的是，考虑一下在当前条件下您的睡眠可以获得什么，并了解保持清醒和放弃睡眠并不是您认为的正确方程式。
In other words, think of sleep that night as an investment in tomorrow rather than a cost opportunity of now or today.
换句话说，将那天晚上的睡眠视为对明天的投资，而不是现在或今天的成本机会。
That would be the message, I think, for learning and memory.
我认为这就是关于学习和记忆的信息。
Some people will say logically and rationally, "Well, but if I stay awake, I can at least be learning and going over that material for many more hours, so doesn't that compensate for me going to bed?
有些人会合乎逻辑、理性地说：“好吧，但如果我保持清醒，我至少可以花更多时间学习和复习这些材料，所以这不是对我上床睡觉的补偿吗？
Let's say I haven't learned it well enough, well, surely I should just focus and stay awake, because at least then I can just go over the material time and time and time again.
假设我学得不够好，那么，我当然应该集中注意力并保持清醒，因为至少这样我可以一次又一次地复习这些材料。
Doesn't that offset the deficit?" And to a degree it does.
这不是可以弥补赤字吗？”在某种程度上确实如此。
We did that study.
我们做了这项研究。
But what was really interesting is that the next day, were you able to at least learn and recall some of that information to a degree?
但真正有趣的是，第二天，你至少能够在一定程度上学习并回忆起其中的一些信息吗？
Yes, you were.
是的，你是。
And the more that you kept going over it, the better you performed, even when you were not getting sufficient sleep.
即使你睡眠不足，你坚持得越多，你的表现就越好。
But then we did something interesting.
但后来我们做了一些有趣的事情。
We then brought them back, and we haven't published this data.
然后我们把它们带回来，我们还没有公布这个数据。
I should do.
我应该做。
We brought them back a month later, and then we tested them again.
一个月后我们把它们带回来，然后再次测试它们。
And what you find is that the group that slept was far better able to have retained and remember that information, whereas the group that did not sleep as much, they performed much more similar to the group that got a full night of sleep the next day.
你会发现，睡觉的那组人能够更好地保留和记住这些信息，而睡眠较少的那组人，他们的表现与第二天睡了一整夜的那组人更加相似。
But when you test them a month later, almost none of that material is residing in their brain anymore.
但是当你一个月后对他们进行测试时，你会发现他们的大脑中几乎不再存在这些物质了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
So this is the cramming effect.
这就是临时抱佛脚效应。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
And one knows this from teaching university courses or if they've crammed, that you can learn a bunch of material, but then you regurgitate it for the exam, and then it's gone.
人们从教授大学课程中知道这一点，或者如果他们临时抱佛脚，你可以学到一堆材料，但是当你为了考试而反省它时，它就消失了。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's almost like it just never passes from short-term to long-term memory, essentially.
所以从本质上讲，它几乎永远不会从短期记忆转变为长期记忆。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
That's correct.
这是正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
And that seems to be, in some ways, that's a beautiful description of then what happens next in the sleep process.
从某些方面来说，这似乎是对睡眠过程中接下来发生的事情的完美描述。
It's not just about sleep before learning.
这不仅仅是学习前的睡眠。
You then have to sleep after learning to do exactly what you just described.
然后，在学会完全按照您刚才描述的方式进行操作后，您必须睡觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I have a class in the morning, or I'm going to learn something new the next day afternoon.
所以我早上有课，或者第二天下午我要学一些新东西。
My goal presumably should be to maximize the amount of sleep I get and to be on the same sleep schedule.
我的目标大概应该是最大限度地增加我的睡眠量并保持相同的睡眠时间表。
So this gets back to QQRT that was presented in the first episode, quantity, quality, regularity, and timing.
那么这又回到了第一集中呈现的QQRT，数量、质量、规律性和时机。
And people should refer to that.
人们应该参考这一点。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Nothing wrong with your memory, by the way.
顺便说一下，你的记忆力没有问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I don't know about that.
嗯，我对此一无所知。
But the QQRT formula was described in the first episode.
但QQRT公式在第一集中就已经描述过了。
Let's come up with what I think is a fairly common scenario.
让我们想出一个我认为相当常见的场景。
So I like to go to bed early, between 8:00 and 9:00 PM.
所以我喜欢早点睡觉，晚上 8:00 到 9:00 之间。
I discovered this recently, thanks to conversations with you.
通过与您的交谈，我最近发现了这一点。
This is clearly what works best for me.
这显然是最适合我的。
I kind of always intuited it, but it clearly is what works best.
我总是有直觉，但它显然是最有效的。
If I go to bed at 10:00, I probably want to wake up sometime around, I don't know, 6:00 AM or 6:30.
如果我在 10:00 睡觉，我可能想在早上 6:00 或 6:30 左右醒来，我不知道。
And if I go to bed any later than 10:30, I start running into problems.
如果我晚于 10:30 睡觉，我就会开始遇到问题。
I don't feel good the next day, even if I get sufficient hours of sleep.
即使我有足够的睡眠时间，第二天我也感觉不舒服。
So this is the importance of regularity and timing, keeping things more or less locked to that 8:30 to 9:30 to bedtime for me, 4:30 to 5:30 wakeup time.
所以这就是规律性和时间安排的重要性，对我来说，把事情或多或少地锁定在 8:30 到 9:30 就寝时间，4:30 到 5:30 起床时间。
That's me.
这就是我。
Just by way of example.
仅举个例子。
In an ideal world, therefore, I would stick to that schedule, wake up the next day and Go do my learning or my performance of something that I had learned.
因此，在理想的世界中，我会坚持这个时间表，第二天醒来，然后去学习或表演我所学到的东西。
Someone else might have the chronotype where going to bed at 11:00 PM and waking up at 7:30 AM is their preferred schedule.
其他人可能有这样的计时类型：他们喜欢晚上 11:00 睡觉并早上 7:30 起床。
However, often because of travel, because of courses, because of life circumstances, the night before something critical that we need to learn or to perform some critical task, physical or cognitive, the sleep the night before is disrupted in some way, either by virtue of timing or quantity, and then, of course, by extension, regularity.
然而，常常因为旅行、因为课程、因为生活环境、因为我们需要学习或执行一些重要任务（无论是身体上的还是认知上的）的前一天晚上，前一天晚上的睡眠会以某种方式被打乱，无论是时间上还是数量上，当然还有规律性。
So is there anything that we can do heading into a bout of learning, meaning the night preceding that bout of learning, that can kind of provide a buffer or set us up for the best possible learning scenario if we're not able to stick to our perfect schedule?
那么，在开始一轮学习之前，即在该轮学习的前一天晚上，如果我们无法遵守完美的时间表，我们可以做些什么来提供缓冲或为我们提供最佳的学习场景呢？
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
I think there may be two things.
我想可能有两件事。
There's been a little bit of work that's been done to suggest that caffeine may actually enhance the hippocampus, this memory encoding structure, and boost its ability to encode.
已经进行的一些研究表明，咖啡因实际上可能会增强海马体（这种记忆编码结构），并提高其编码能力。
Now, what they haven't yet done is the study where you sleep deprive someone, then you give them caffeine the next day, and then you have them try to learn and ask, can caffeine, by way of its effect on the hippocampus, rescue and restore what would otherwise be an encoding deficit?
现在，他们还没有做的是一项研究，你剥夺某人的睡眠，然后第二天给他们咖啡因，然后你让他们尝试学习并询问，咖啡因能否通过对海马体的影响来拯救和恢复编码缺陷？
Now, that is entirely possible, and I think it's a fascinating question.
现在，这是完全可能的，我认为这是一个有趣的问题。
By how much?
多少？
We don't know.
我们不知道。
But if it doesn't, it's equally likely that the hippocampus, by way of being sleep deprived, is not receptive to the benefit of caffeine under conditions of sleep deprivation.
但如果不是这样，同样可能的是，海马体由于睡眠不足而无法在睡眠不足的情况下接受咖啡因的好处。
And I told you in the rat studies, when those rats were deprived, the hippocampus once again became stubborn in its ability to form new synapses, and it may be that it's equally stubborn to receive the normal benefit of caffeine when you are sleep rested.
我在老鼠研究中告诉过你，当这些老鼠被剥夺时，海马体形成新突触的能力再次变得顽固，当你在睡眠休息时，它可能同样顽固地接受咖啡因的正常好处。
But I would love to do that study.
但我很愿意做这项研究。
The second is to then say, well, if I have the choice of when I'm going to be learning during the day, let's say that you've had a bad night of sleep, or you just had a short night of sleep, non-negotiable, couldn't do anything about it, and the next day I've got to cram in some information.
第二个是然后说，好吧，如果我可以选择白天什么时候学习，假设你昨晚睡得不好，或者你只是睡了一个短觉，无可商量，对此无能为力，第二天我必须死记硬背一些信息。
I would say think about your chronotype and think about when you are at your best operating temperature.
我想说的是，考虑一下您的生物钟类型，并考虑一下您何时处于最佳工作温度。
So your scenario, let's say going to bed at 9:00, waking up at 4:30, 5:00, your peak is probably going to be maybe 10, 11 o'clock in the morning, where your biology and your circadian rhythm is on its almost crescendo peak.
所以你的情况是，假设你在 9:00 睡觉，在 4:30、5:00 起床，你的高峰可能会在早上 10 点、11 点，此时你的生物和昼夜节律几乎处于渐强的峰值。
At that point, we know for circadian influences on learning, and this is independent of sleep influences on learning, that's where things are better.
到那时，我们知道昼夜节律对学习的影响，并且这与睡眠对学习的影响无关，这就是情况更好的地方。
Now, for me, you actually described me, which is I'm a kind of an 11:00 to 7:30 type person.
现在，对于我来说，你实际上描述了我，那就是我是一个11:00到7:30类型的人。
For me, it's probably going to be much closer to about midday or 1:00 PM, where I feel at my operating peak, both for physical performance and also mental performance.
对我来说，可能会更接近中午或下午 1:00，此时我感觉自己的身体表现和精神表现都处于工作高峰。
So if you've got the choice and you are underslept, there's nothing you can do about the sleep that you've lost the night before, but at least recognize that your circadian rhythm is going to come to your rescue and help offset that as long as you time your learning to that known peak of your circadian rhythm.
因此，如果你有选择，但你睡眠不足，你对前一天晚上失去的睡眠无能为力，但至少要认识到，只要你将学习时间安排在已知的昼夜节律峰值，你的昼夜节律就会来拯救你并帮助抵消这一影响。
Does that help a little bit?
这有一点帮助吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes, that makes good sense.
是的，这很有道理。
So the idea gets us back to something you described in previous episodes, which is that you have this sleep pressure due to the buildup of the molecule adenosine, which the longer we're awake, the more adenosine in our nervous system, which makes us sleepy.
所以这个想法让我们回到了你在前几集中描述的事情，那就是你的睡眠压力是由于腺苷分子的积累而产生的，我们醒着的时间越长，我们神经系统中的腺苷就越多，这会让我们犯困。
But separate from that, there's this circadian, circadia, about 24-hour rhythm, that causes fairly dramatic shifts in wakefulness and sleepiness independent of the adenosine signal.
但除此之外，还有这种昼夜节律，昼夜节律，大约 24 小时的节律，它会导致清醒和困倦的相当戏剧性的变化，而与腺苷信号无关。
Now, sometimes the two signals overlap, so that late in the evening, for instance, we have a lot of adenosine, we've been up all day, and our circadian rhythm is such that our alertness is starting to diminish, so they're aligned.
现在，有时这两个信号会重叠，例如，在深夜，我们有大量的腺苷，我们一整天都在睡觉，我们的昼夜节律使我们的警觉性开始减弱，所以它们是一致的。
And in the early part of the day, assuming everything is normal, the adenosine levels are low because we slept well the night before, and our circadian rhythm is on the upswing, so to speak, and we are alert.
在一天的早些时候，假设一切正常，腺苷水平较低，因为我们前一天晚上睡得很好，而且我们的昼夜节律正在上升，可以说，我们很警觉。
So if I understand correctly, the goal is to, of course, maximize the quality, quantity, regularity, and timing of sleep, QQRT, but that in the absence of the ability to really anchor any one of those things to 10 out of 10, A+ performance, if one knows that, okay, typically around between 10:00 AM and noon is when I'm at my sharpest, that would be the time to be exposed to new material or ideally take an exam if one can control that sort of thing.
因此，如果我理解正确的话，我们的目标当然是最大限度地提高睡眠的质量、数量、规律性和时间（QQRT），但是在没有能力真正将这些事情中的任何一项锚定为 10 分中的 10 分的情况下，A+ 表现，如果人们知道，好吧，通常上午 10:00 到中午之间是我最敏锐的时候，那将是接触新材料或理想情况下参加考试的时间（如果可以控制这种情况）事。
And then perhaps in the afternoon, there's another opportunity after the postprandial dip.
然后也许在下午，餐后下降之后还有另一个机会。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But before the postprandial dip, sometime between 1:00 and 4:00 PM, usually lasting about an hour to 90 minutes.
但在餐后下降之前，下午 1:00 至 4:00 之间的某个时间，通常持续约 1 小时至 90 分钟。
This is a natural dip in energy.
这是能量的自然下降。
But then after that, there's another opportunity to learn.
但在那之后，还有另一个学习的机会。
Sure, there'll be a lot of adenosine in one's system because you've been up a long time, but the circadian system is on its sort of upswing again-
当然，由于你已经起床很长时间，人的系统中会有大量腺苷，但昼夜节律系统又开始上升了——
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
It's coming back, yeah
它要回来了，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
before the downswing that occurs in the evening.
在晚上出现下降之前。
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you can cut-
所以你可以剪-
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
So you've got two opportunities.
所以你有两次机会。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
And by the way, it's strange you were to ask, if you look at the circadian rhythm, right before bedtime, there is this sort of strange little blip, this peak that folks back at Harvard have discovered.
顺便说一句，你问的问题很奇怪，如果你在睡觉前观察昼夜节律，就会发现这种奇怪的小现象，哈佛的人们发现了这种峰值。
And you think, well, why would my circadian system, which needs to really ratchet down for us to get to sleep well, why would it have this little jag upwards in the evening hours right before we need to sleep, and it then drops precipitously?
你会想，好吧，为什么我的昼夜节律系统需要真正降低才能让我们睡得好，为什么它会在晚上我们需要睡觉之前的几个小时突然向上，然后急剧下降？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Makes no sense until you think about evolution, because after foraging for food during the day, what you need Is this final spurt to get you home safely to your nest or to your home.
除非你考虑进化，否则这毫无意义，因为在白天觅食之后，你需要的是最后的冲刺，让你安全地回到你的巢穴或你的家。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
To batten down the hatches.
关闭舱门。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
So there is this beautiful little built-in circadian upswing to say, "Okay, I know you're returning to home.
因此，这个美丽的、内置的昼夜节律上升是在说：“好吧，我知道你要回家了。
This is probably a time when there's some maybe potential threat to you.
这可能是你面临一些潜在威胁的时候。
I'm going to just boost your alertness very quickly so you travel home safely.
我将很快提高您的警觉性，以便您安全回家。
Good to go?
好走了吗？
Great.
太棒了。
And now I start my downswing."
现在我开始下杆了。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think this is a really important thing for people to know about.
我认为这对人们来说非常重要。
I'm familiar with the data, although just in top contour.
我对这些数据很熟悉，尽管只是大概的轮廓。
But the idea here, as I understand it, is that many people will feel like, okay, around 6:00 PM, 6:30, they're getting sleepy, 7:30, 8:00 PM, and then they want to get to bed at 10:30, and suddenly, for them, based on their chronotype, around 9:00 PM, they're wide awake.
但据我了解，这里的想法是，很多人会觉得，好吧，下午 6:00、6:30 左右，他们开始犯困，晚上 7:30、8:00，然后他们想在 10:30 睡觉，突然间，根据他们的生物钟类型，在晚上 9:00 左右，他们完全清醒了。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Second wind.
第二次风。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
The second wind, and they're like, "Oh, no. I need to sleep tonight." Now, maybe it's the case that they would be better off going to bed far earlier and waking up earlier the next morning.
第二次风来了，他们会说，“哦，不。我今晚需要睡觉。”现在，也许他们最好早点睡觉，第二天早上早点起床。
But in many cases, it's just that transient 45- to 70-minute window of increased alertness.
但在许多情况下，这只是短暂的 45 到 70 分钟的警觉性提高窗口。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This kind of uptick in the circadian alertness system.
这种昼夜警觉系统的增强。
So to speak.
这么说吧。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
This too shall pass.
这也会过去的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Right.
正确的。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
And then also just set yourself up for success, and we discussed a little bit about the methods of really ratcheting things down, dimming down the lights, having a to bed alarm.
然后，也为自己的成功做好准备，我们讨论了一些真正减少事情的方法，调暗灯光，设置就寝闹钟。
These types of things will just gradually back you off, and after that second wind comes, give you the greatest ability to decline physiologically, which then permits this beautiful thing called sleep to come in its place.
这些类型的事情只会逐渐让你退缩，在第二次复苏之后，给你最大的生理衰退能力，然后让称为睡眠的美丽事物取而代之。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, speaking of sleep post-learning-
好吧，说到学习后的睡眠——
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
what is the role of sleep that follows a bout of learning?
学习后睡眠的作用是什么？
And here again, we want to define learning as the exposure to novel information that one is trying to encode, either cognitive information, motor information, or a combination of the two.
在这里，我们再次将学习定义为接触一个人试图编码的新信息，可以是认知信息、运动信息或两者的组合。
And I say that because learning, AKA neuroplasticity, has many different stages.
我这么说是因为学习，又称神经可塑性，有许多不同的阶段。
It's a process-
这是一个过程——
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
not an event.
不是一个事件。
But so let's say that earlier in the day, I took a dance class, Lord knows I need one, or-
但这么说吧，那天早些时候，我参加了舞蹈课，上帝知道我需要一个，或者-
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
You and I both
你和我都
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or a musical lesson, or was exposed to some interesting information, who knows?
或者音乐课，或者接触到一些有趣的信息，谁知道呢？
Maybe on a podcast, and I was trying to engage in that information and pay attention.
也许在播客上，我试图参与这些信息并集中注意力。
And then that night, I plan to sleep, or perhaps wanted to take a nap after this bout of learning.
然后那天晚上，我打算睡觉，或者说是想在这一轮学习之后小睡一会儿。
How close to the learning episode about, as I'm calling it, does the sleep have to arrive in order for sleep-
距离我所说的学习情节有多近，睡眠必须到达才能入睡-
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to maximize the amount of learning that occurs?
最大化发生的学习量？
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
It's a very good question, which is, what would happen if I were to be learning information and I'm listening to this odd British gentleman, should I then immediately dive into bed so that I maximize the retention of that information?
这是一个非常好的问题，也就是说，如果我正在学习信息并且正在听这位奇怪的英国绅士说话，会发生什么，然后我是否应该立即躺到床上以便最大限度地保留该信息？
And the answer is no. Don't worry.
答案是否定的。不用担心。
And I'll come back to why not to worry.
我会回过头来谈谈为什么不用担心。
But to your point, not only do you need sleep before learning, as we've been discussing, but there is something unique and equally necessary of, and causely necessary, I should say, for sleep after learning.
但就你的观点而言，正如我们一直在讨论的那样，你不仅在学习前需要睡眠，而且我应该说，学习后的睡眠有一些独特的、同样必要的、而且是合理必要的。
But it does something different.
但它做了一些不同的事情。
Sleep before learning gets your brain ready to lay down those new memory traces.
在学习之前睡觉可以让你的大脑准备好留下这些新的记忆痕迹。
After you've imprinted them into the brain, sleep after learning then takes those freshly minted memories, and then it strengthens them.
当你将它们印入大脑后，学习后的睡眠会带走那些新鲜的记忆，然后强化它们。
Essentially, it's almost like sleep will hit the save button on those new memories so that you don't forget.
从本质上讲，这几乎就像睡眠会按下这些新记忆的保存按钮，这样你就不会忘记。
So in other words, sleep is future-proofing that information within your brain so that you don't forget.
换句话说，睡眠可以保证大脑中的信息不会被遗忘，这样你就不会忘记。
And then the question, and we've been able to, and we and many others have replicated this.
然后是问题，我们已经能够做到，并且我们和许多其他人已经复制了这一点。
In fact, it's nothing new.
事实上，这不是什么新鲜事。
If you look at the literature on this sleep after learning gig, it goes back as best we can tell to 1929, although I'll argue with that in a second.
如果你在学习后查看关于这种睡眠的文献，我们可以说它可以追溯到 1929 年，尽管我稍后会反驳这一点。
But two researchers, Jenkins and Dallenbach, did a landmark study.
但詹金斯和达伦巴赫这两位研究人员做了一项具有里程碑意义的研究。
They had participants learn a whole bunch of nonsense syllables, and they had them learn them over and over and over again, and gradually they got better.
他们让参与者学习一大堆无意义的音节，让他们一遍又一遍地学习，逐渐地他们变得更好了。
And then they started to test them across an eight-hour period.
然后他们开始在八小时内对它们进行测试。
They tested them two hours later, four hours later, six hours later, and eight hours later.
他们在两小时后、四小时后、六小时后和八小时后对它们进行了测试。
The only difference is that in one of those testing sessions, that two hours, four hours, six hours, eight hours was across a waking day.
唯一的区别是，在其中一次测试中，两个小时、四个小时、六个小时、八个小时是在清醒的一天中进行的。
In the other, they had them learn that information to near perfection before sleep, just as they did in the waking group, but now they woke them up after two hours and tested them, after four hours and tested them, after six hours, and then again when they woke up in the morning, eight hours later.
在另一组中，他们让他们在睡觉前学习到近乎完美的信息，就像他们在清醒组中所做的那样，但现在他们在两个小时后叫醒他们并测试他们，在四个小时后并在六个小时后测试他们，然后在他们早上醒来时再次测试，八小时后。
And what they found is that in those people who stayed awake after learning, there was essentially just catastrophic forgetting.
他们发现，那些在学习后保持清醒的人，基本上只会发生灾难性的遗忘。
The amount of information two hours, four hours, six hours, eight hours later just declined dramatically.
两小时、四小时、六小时、八小时后的信息量急剧下降。
But when they repeated that in the same individuals after learning things to the same degree, two hours, four hours later, memory was starting to decline, but after about two and a half, three hours of being asleep, all of a sudden, sleep had fixated those memories, almost like an animal that's been trapped in amber and set in amber like a fossil.
但当他们在相同程度的学习后，对同一个人重复这一点时，两个小时、四个小时后，记忆力开始下降，但在睡了大约两个半小时、三个小时后，睡眠突然固定了这些记忆，几乎就像一只动物被困在琥珀中，像化石一样镶嵌在琥珀中。
And then those memories just would not decay any further, and you retained them.
然后这些记忆就不会再进一步衰退，你就保留了它们。
What was stunning about that study is it has been replicated time and time again.
这项研究的惊人之处在于它已经被一次又一次地重复。
That's not the surprising part.
这并不是令人惊讶的部分。
The surprising part is that in that study, they tested a vast number of subjects.
令人惊讶的是，在这项研究中，他们测试了大量受试者。
In fact, a sum total- Of two participants.
事实上，总共有两名参与者。
But what's stunning is that that finding has gone and been replicated time and time again.
但令人震惊的是，这一发现已经消失，并被一次又一次地重复。
So that demonstrated to us that there's something special about sleep that is concretizing, almost literally taking things and setting it in concrete.
这向我们表明，睡眠有一种特别之处，那就是具体化，几乎是字面意思上把事物具体化。
And then the question became, again, mechanistically, how?
然后问题又变成了，机械地，如何？
How is it?
如何？
And it's important to understand mechanism because it has ramifications for diseases and medicine.
了解其机制很重要，因为它对疾病和医学有影响。
How is sleep doing this fantastic saving of memories?
睡眠是如何发挥如此神奇的记忆作用的呢？
And we now have at least two non-mutually exclusive mechanisms.
我们现在至少有两种非互斥的机制。
So in other words, both seem to occur.
换句话说，两者似乎都发生了。
The first is what we call memory translocation.
第一个是我们所说的记忆易位。
Sleep, and particularly what we found for fact-based memories, and I should note by the way that this story of sleep after learning is a two-part, or it runs in two different narratives.
睡眠，特别是我们发现的基于事实的记忆，顺便说一句，我应该指出，这个学习后睡眠的故事是由两部分组成的，或者说它以两种不同的叙述方式进行。
One is sleep after learning for fact-based memory, what we describe as declarative memory, and you've done a fantastic previous episode on working memory, and you describe all of these different types of memory.
一个是学习基于事实的记忆后的睡眠，我们将其称为陈述性记忆，您在上一集关于工作记忆的精彩内容中，您描述了所有这些不同类型的记忆。
So one storyline has been sleep after learning for fact-based memory, but the other, which is equally interesting, is sleep for non-declarative or procedural skill memory.
因此，一个故事情节是在学习基于事实的记忆后睡眠，但另一个故事情节同样有趣，是为了非陈述性或程序性技能记忆而睡眠。
In other words, what we think of as motor memory.
换句话说，就是我们所说的运动记忆。
But I'll come back to motor memory in a second.
但我稍后会回到运动记忆。
What we then found for this sleep and textbook-like memory is that there are two mechanisms, the first translocation.
然后我们发现这种睡眠和教科书般的记忆有两种机制，第一种是易位。
And here what we found is that it's deep non-REM sleep for fact-based memories, and it's those big, slow, powerful brainwaves that we spoke about in the first episode, combined with those sleep spindles that ride on top of them almost like a surfer on a huge amplitude wave.
我们发现，基于事实的记忆是深度非快速眼动睡眠，我们在第一集中谈到的那些大的、缓慢的、强大的脑电波，与那些骑在它们上面的睡眠纺锤波相结合，几乎就像冲浪者在巨大的振幅波浪上一样。
And it's the combination of those two brainwaves that acts like a file transfer mechanism, and it moves and shifts memories from a short-term vulnerable reservoir, the hippocampus, to the more permanent long-term storage site, the cortex in the brain, and therefore protecting them and making them safe.
这两种脑电波的结合起到了文件传输机制的作用，它将记忆从短期脆弱的储存库（海马体）移动和转移到更永久的长期存储位置（大脑皮层），从而保护它们并使它们安全。
So that's one mechanism, is the shifting of memories around the brain and through different storage sites from short term to long term.
这是一种机制，就是大脑周围的记忆通过不同的存储位置从短期转移到长期。
The second, I think, is perhaps even more fascinating.
我认为，第二个可能更令人着迷。
It's called memory replay.
这就是所谓的记忆重放。
And this was discovered back in probably 1990s.
这大约在 20 世纪 90 年代就被发现了。
Bruce McNaughton at the University of Arizona, working with a young Matt Walker, who's Matt Wilson at MIT now.
亚利桑那大学的布鲁斯·麦克诺顿 (Bruce McNaughton) 与年轻的马特·沃克 (Matt Walker) 一起工作，后者现在是麻省理工学院的马特·威尔逊 (Matt Wilson)。
They were looking at rats, and they were looking at how rats learn a maze.
他们正在研究老鼠，他们正在研究老鼠如何学习迷宫。
And they had these electrodes in these hippocampal brain regions, these memory-related regions that we've been discussing.
他们在海马体大脑区域中放置了这些电极，这些区域是我们一直在讨论的与记忆相关的区域。
And they were listening to the individual firing patterns of those memory cells in the hippocampus as they were running around the maze.
当他们绕着迷宫奔跑时，他们正在聆听海马体中这些记忆细胞的个体放电模式。
And sure enough, as they ran around the maze, statistically you would build up what looked like the signature pattern of learning.
果然，当他们在迷宫中奔跑时，从统计上看，你会建立起看起来像是标志性学习模式的东西。
So think about those neurons, that they each had a special tone to them.
所以想想那些神经元，它们每个都有特殊的音调。
And as the rat is running around the maze, you can hear the signature of learning.
当老鼠绕着迷宫奔跑时，你可以听到学习的信号。
Ba ba ba ba, ba ba ba bum, ba ba ba bum, ba ba ba bum.
巴巴巴巴，巴巴巴巴姆，巴巴巴巴姆，巴巴巴巴姆。
And it just went over and over again.
它只是一遍又一遍地发生。
But then they did something clever.
但后来他们做了一些聪明的事情。
When the rats went to sleep after learning, they kept listening.
当老鼠学习后入睡时，它们会继续听。
What did they hear?
他们听到了什么？
They didn't just hear noise.
他们听到的不仅仅是噪音。
They heard that same memory signature replayed.
他们听到同样的记忆签名重放。
However, it wasn't replayed at the same speed.
然而，它并没有以相同的速度重播。
It was replayed somewhere between 10 to 20 times faster.
重播速度快了 10 到 20 倍。
So now all of a sudden, instead of hearing ba ba ba bum, ba ba ba bum, you heard just going over and over again.
所以现在突然之间，你听到的不再是“ba ba ba bum”、“ba ba ba bum”，而是一遍又一遍。
And what we've learned is that this replay of memories for that type of information.
我们了解到的是，这种类型信息的记忆重播。
Now, for rats, that's their version essentially of that spatial navigation is their version of fact-based memory, and I won't go into detail, but-
现在，对于老鼠来说，这本质上是他们的空间导航版本，是他们基于事实的记忆的版本，我不会详细介绍，但是-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, because navigating novel environments is especially important for all species, but rodents to know where they cached food, where escapes are, and things of that sort.
是的，因为在新的环境中航行对所有物种来说都特别重要，但啮齿类动物知道它们在哪里储存食物，在哪里逃生，以及诸如此类的事情。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Perhaps even more so than us humans, that locational memory is necessary.
也许比我们人类更需要位置记忆。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And nowadays there's Google Maps and Uber and things of that sort, but in the old days, as it were, I recall the London taxi drivers were considered the world heavyweight champions of memory.
现在有谷歌地图和优步之类的东西，但在过去，我记得伦敦出租车司机被认为是世界重量级记忆冠军。
And there were some decent brain imaging studies of their hippocampi, and indeed they have amazing spatial memory of the city of London.
对它们的海马体进行了一些不错的脑成像研究，它们确实对伦敦市有惊人的空间记忆。
Now that's probably changed because of Google Maps.
现在这可能因为谷歌地图而改变了。
There's no need to rely on internal memory stores when you have-
当您有以下情况时，无需依赖内部存储：
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
No, you can drive these rideshare apps.
不，您可以驾驶这些拼车应用程序。
But for London taxi drivers, they still have to go through, in some ways, it's almost like a hazing.
但对于伦敦的出租车司机来说，他们仍然必须经历，在某些方面，这几乎就像是一种欺辱。
It's called The Knowledge.
这就是所谓的知识。
And if you are visiting London, you will see these strange guys who are going around on mopeds, and they just have this huge kind of map in front of them.
如果你去伦敦旅游，你会看到这些奇怪的人骑着轻便摩托车四处走动，他们面前就有一张巨大的地图。
And they are doing The Knowledge, which is that they are learning exquisitely the entire roadmap of London.
他们正在做The Knowledge，就是他们正在精致地学习伦敦的整个路线图。
And what they found in those studies was that the size of the hippocampus, this memory structure related to fact-based memories and also spatial memories, was significantly larger in cab drivers than it was in matched controls.
他们在这些研究中发现，出租车司机的海马体（这种与基于事实的记忆和空间记忆相关的记忆结构）的大小明显大于匹配的对照组。
Now you could say, well, this is a self-selecting process that people who already have large hippocampi, as we would say, they're just going to be the people who can do The Knowledge well and pass as it were.
现在你可以说，嗯，这是一个自我选择的过程，那些已经拥有大海马体的人，正如我们所说，他们将成为那些能够很好地完成知识并通过的人。
But what they also found was that a correlation, the longer that you've been doing The Knowledge and being a taxi driver, the bigger and bigger your hippocampus.
但他们还发现，一种相关性是，你从事知识学习和担任出租车司机的时间越长，你的海马体就越大。
So it's time on task.
所以现在是执行任务的时间了。
So coming back to the rats and this spatial learning, it's almost as though sleep after learning is taking that memory trace and it's like etching into a glass surface.
回到老鼠和这种空间学习，学习后的睡眠几乎就像是在吸收记忆痕迹，就像蚀刻到玻璃表面一样。
You just go over that memory circuit over and over again, and you're strengthening that memory circuit.
你只要一遍又一遍地回顾那个记忆回路，你就可以强化那个记忆回路。
What was also fascinating, however, I'm telling you that it's during non-REM sleep that you do all of this memory replay, and certainly what we found is that for textbook memory, it's deep non-REM sleep.
然而，同样令人着迷的是，我告诉你，所有这些记忆重放都是在非快速眼动睡眠期间进行的，当然我们发现，对于教科书记忆来说，它是深度非快速眼动睡眠。
That's the important stage of sleep.
这是睡眠的重要阶段。
But Matt Wilson published at MIT an interesting study looking at REM sleep.
但马特·威尔逊在麻省理工学院发表了一项关于快速眼动睡眠的有趣研究。
What happens to the memory trace in REM sleep?
快速眼动睡眠中的记忆痕迹会发生什么变化？
And REM sleep, which we know is associated with dreaming, there the memory replay didn't slow back down to normal waking speed.
我们知道快速眼动睡眠与做梦有关，记忆回放并没有减慢回到正常的清醒速度。
It slowed down even further to 0.5 times relative to waking speed.
相对于清醒时的速度，它甚至进一步减慢至 0.5 倍。
So the waking speed versus the dreaming speed in dreaming, sort of in REM sleep, I should say, because we don't know if rats dream or not, but in REM sleep, things had slowed down by essentially 50%.
所以，我应该说，在快速眼动睡眠中，做梦时醒来的速度与做梦的速度相比，因为我们不知道老鼠是否做梦，但在快速眼动睡眠中，事情基本上减慢了 50%。
And this comes back to our conversation in a previous episode that we had about time, and you and I were discussing how there's this strange phenomenon where you are woken up by your alarm and you're in a dream, and you have a snooze button that lasts five minutes.
这又回到了我们在上一集中关于时间的对话，你和我正在讨论如何出现这种奇怪的现象，你被闹钟吵醒，而你在梦中，并且你有一个持续五分钟的贪睡按钮。
You hit the snooze button, you go back to sleep, and you feel as though you've been dreaming for, I don't know, 10 minutes, 15 minutes, but it's been five minutes in the real world, but time has slowed down.
你按下贪睡按钮，你回去睡觉，你感觉好像你一直在做梦，我不知道，10分钟，15分钟，但在现实世界已经五分钟了，但时间变慢了。
Time has dilated.
时间已经膨胀了。
It's almost like a concertina that's stretched out.
它几乎就像一个拉长的手风琴。
And all of a sudden, we were finding in, or Matt Wilson, because we don't do animal research, was finding that this replay was slowed down by 50%.
突然之间，我们发现，或者马特·威尔逊（Matt Wilson），因为我们不做动物研究，发现这个重播速度减慢了 50%。
So I always wonder whether or not there is neuronal evidence that helps us explain why dreams seem to pack more time, despite being in real-world time a shorter amount.
所以我总是想知道是否有神经元证据可以帮助我们解释为什么梦似乎包含了更多的时间，尽管在现实世界中的时间较短。
Absolutely fascinating.
绝对令人着迷。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I have to imagine that rats dream and dogs dream and other animals dream.
是的，我必须想象老鼠做梦、狗做梦以及其他动物做梦。
Why wouldn't they?
他们为什么不呢？
If all the components of REM sleep that are expressed in humans appear in these animals and vice versa, you imagine it almost has to be the case.
如果人类表达的快速眼动睡眠的所有组成部分都出现在这些动物身上，反之亦然，你可以想象情况几乎一定是这样。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
It does, and I think there is some interesting supportive evidence that you can argue.
确实如此，而且我认为有一些有趣的支持证据可以争论。
There is a sleep disorder that we understood in humans first called rapid eye movement disorder or REM sleep behavioral disorder.
我们首先了解人类存在一种睡眠障碍，称为快速眼动障碍或快速眼动睡眠行为障碍。
And in the first episode, we said that one of the fascinating features of REM sleep, which is when we principally dream, is that your brain, and specifically your brain stem, paralyzes your body so that your mind can dream safely.
在第一集中，我们说过快速眼动睡眠（即我们主要做梦的时间）的一个迷人特征是，您的大脑，特别是您的脑干，会麻痹您的身体，以便您的思想可以安全地做梦。
So you're shut down into this motor paralysis incarceration, rightly so.
所以你被关进了运动麻痹的监禁，这是正确的。
But what also happens is that as we get older, and it seems to be particularly more so in men than in women, but it can be both, once we get past our 50s, there is a higher likelihood that that mechanism starts to degrade, and you can start to act out your dreams.
但也会发生的情况是，随着我们年龄的增长，男性的情况似乎比女性更严重，但也可能是两者兼而有之，一旦我们过了 50 岁，这种机制开始退化的可能性就更大，你可以开始实现你的梦想。
Now, this is not sleepwalking or sleep talking.
现在，这不是梦游或说梦话。
That actually comes from deep non-REM sleep.
这实际上来自深度非快速眼动睡眠。
And there, what happens is that there is a trigger, an awakening, either a brain response, almost like a stress response, that wakes the brain up, and you're in the deeper stages of sleep, and you are trying to get forced back up to wakefulness, back to that analogy of going from the basement to the penthouse.
在那里，发生的事情是，有一个触发因素，一种觉醒，或者是一种大脑反应，几乎就像压力反应一样，唤醒大脑，而你正处于深度睡眠阶段，你试图被迫回到清醒状态，回到从地下室到顶层公寓的类比。
And instead, you just get locked into this mixed state of consciousness.
相反，你只是陷入了这种混合的意识状态。
And as a consequence, you start to enact very rote, basic behaviors.
结果，你开始表现出非常死记硬背的基本行为。
You'll go over to the refrigerator, open the door, close the door, pick up a glass, put it to your mouth, put it back down.
你会走到冰箱前，打开门，关上门，拿起一个玻璃杯，放到嘴边，再放回去。
And if you wake someone up, which you shouldn't necessarily do unless there's harm, and ask them, "What was going through your mind just a few minutes ago?" They'll say, "Nothing." And the reason is because it wasn't coming from dream sleep, it was from deep non-REM sleep.
如果你叫醒某人（除非造成伤害，否则你不一定应该这么做），然后问他们：“几分钟前你脑子里在想什么？”他们会说：“没什么。”原因是因为它不是来自梦境睡眠，而是来自深度非快速眼动睡眠。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
However, there is a very different condition that sometimes people will mix up as the very same thing, which is REM sleep behavioral disorder, and there you're acting out your dreams.
然而，有一种非常不同的情况，有时人们会混淆为同一件事，那就是快速眼动睡眠行为障碍，而你正在实现你的梦想。
It can be quite violent.
它可能非常暴力。
Some people have enacted violence on their partner-
有些人对他们的伴侣实施了暴力——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
...
...
and woken up and been absolutely devastated.
醒来后，我彻底崩溃了。
I bring this up, however, because human beings are not the only species that suffers from REM sleep behavioral disorder.
然而，我提出这一点是因为人类并不是唯一患有快速眼动睡眠行为障碍的物种。
Dogs suffer from this as well.
狗也患有这种疾病。
And when you see it and you can understand, it's very clear, you have electrodes on the head, they go into this REM sleep state, and all of a sudden they come out of the paralysis, and they start enacting what very much looks like a behavior of wakefulness.
当你看到它并且你可以理解时，很清楚，你的头上有电极，他们进入快速眼动睡眠状态，然后突然他们从瘫痪中恢复过来，他们开始表现出看起来很像清醒的行为。
It's quite complex.
这相当复杂。
And at that point, you look at that and you say, "Okay, I'm sorry, but that looks very much like dreaming." Now, we can't, of course, ask dogs the question, "What was going through your mind?"
那时，你看着它，然后说：“好吧，我很抱歉，但这看起来很像在做梦。”现在，我们当然不能问狗这样的问题：“你脑子里在想什么？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can ask them.
你可以问他们。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
But-
但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But they're not going to answer.
但他们不会回答。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
But yeah, you can ask them, but it turns out that the response is-
但是，是的，你可以问他们，但结果是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm just kidding.
我只是开玩笑。
Forgive me
原谅我
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
...
...
less than.
小于。
It's just a look to say, "Give me a treat." But in science, sometimes if it looks like a duck, talks like a duck, walks like a duck, maybe it's a duck.
只是一个眼神，在说“请给我一个享受”。但在科学中，有时如果它看起来像鸭子，说话像鸭子，走路像鸭子，也许它就是鸭子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What about this phenomenon, which I've experienced before, of being asleep, presumably in rapid eye movement sleep, and being completely paralyzed, but then waking up and I'm still in paralysis, but I'm not asleep.
我以前经历过这种现象，大概是在快速眼动睡眠中，我睡着了，完全瘫痪，但醒来后，我仍然处于瘫痪状态，但我没有睡着。
And-
还有——
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
this was a long time ago, probably the 10th grade, which for me, I was what, 15 years old.
那是很久以前的事了，大概是十年级，对我来说，我当时才15岁。
I'm 48 now.
我现在48岁了。
And it was at a party that I fell asleep on the couch, and goodness, I don't believe in underage drinking, but there's a possibility that I might've been inebriated.
在一次聚会上，我在沙发上睡着了，天哪，我不相信未成年人喝酒，但我有可能喝醉了。
I was-
我当时——
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Just a possibility
只是一种可能
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
kids, parents, I actively dissuade ...
孩子们、家长们，我积极劝阻……
young people from drinking and many older people from drinking.
年轻人戒酒，许多老年人戒酒。
But, yeah, I started drinking far too young.
但是，是的，我开始喝酒太年轻了。
But I remember I drank the night before, I got drunk the night before.
但我记得前一天晚上我喝酒了，前一天晚上我喝醉了。
Again, something I'm not suggesting or proud of.
再说一遍，我并不建议或为此感到自豪。
I woke up and I was wide awake, gosh, I remember this so well, and I was paralyzed.
我醒了，我完全清醒了，天哪，我记得这么清楚，我整个人都瘫痪了。
I could not move, and it was terrifying.
我无法动弹，这太可怕了。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Was it-
是不是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then all of a sudden, boom, I could jolt myself awake, and I was like, "Oh my goodness." And it must have been an invasion of that atonia, that sleep-induced paralysis into the waking state.
然后突然间，轰隆隆，我可以把自己摇醒，我当时想，“哦，我的天啊。”这一定是失张力的入侵，即睡眠引起的瘫痪进入清醒状态。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
So I can explain this and this is the perfect prototypical situation when we see this.
所以我可以解释这一点，当我们看到这一点时，这是完美的原型情况。
What you're describing to me is something that many people listening will have experienced, called REM sleep paralysis.
你向我描述的情况是很多听众都经历过的，称为快速眼动睡眠麻痹。
And it's not necessarily a problem or a sign of a condition that you need to be worried about, although if it's happening frequently, we can think about that.
这不一定是您需要担心的问题或病症的征兆，尽管如果它经常发生，我们可以考虑一下。
What normally happens when we wake up out of REM sleep, and REM sleep, as we spoke about in the first episode, dominates the second half of the night, and particularly the last quarter of the night.
当我们从快速眼动睡眠中醒来时通常会发生什么，正如我们在第一集中谈到的，快速眼动睡眠占据了后半夜，尤其是晚上的最后一刻。
As you're coming out of REM sleep and waking up out of REM sleep, which you've got a 50% chance perhaps, because the other state that you're in is stage two, light non-REM.
当您从 REM 睡眠中醒来并从 REM 睡眠中醒来时，您可能有 50% 的机会，因为您所处的另一种状态是第二阶段，即轻度非 REM。
As you're coming out of REM sleep, you're regaining consciousness to the external world, and then normally in lockstep with that, perfect lockstep, if not a little before, your brain is realizing this, and it's releasing you from the paralysis.
当你从快速眼动睡眠中醒来时，你正在恢复对外部世界的意识，然后通常与外部世界同步，完美的同步，如果不是提前一点，你的大脑正在意识到这一点，它正在将你从瘫痪中释放出来。
And we all wake up and we don't even think about it.
我们都醒了，但我们甚至没有去想它。
I just wake up and I lean over, I turn off the alarm, and I get out of bed.
我刚醒来，弯下腰，关掉闹钟，然后起床。
Everything's fine.
一切都很好。
Every now and again, however, the waking up and consciousness reengaging occurs.
然而，醒来和意识重新参与的情况时不时地发生。
However, the brain does not release you from the REM sleep paralysis.
然而，大脑并没有让你从快速眼动睡眠麻痹状态中解脱出来。
So at that point, it's almost like a locked-in body phenomenon, and it's very frightening because you begin to be aware of your surroundings, but you cannot make any voluntary movements.
所以在那时，它几乎就像一种被锁定的身体现象，而且非常可怕，因为你开始意识到周围的环境，但你无法做出任何随意的动作。
Because I told you that the voluntary skeletal muscle system is impaired by the atonia, the absence of muscle.
因为我告诉过你，随意骨骼肌系统会因缺乏肌肉而受损。
You're involuntary, you're still breathing and all of that, but your eyelids turn out to be part of your voluntary muscle set.
你是不自觉的，你仍在呼吸等等，但你的眼睑却是你随意肌群的一部分。
So you can't lift up your eyelids, and then normally what happens is that it's associated with a strong sense of often an intruder, it seems to be, if you're doing it sort of in bed by yourself at home.
所以你无法抬起你的眼皮，然后通常会发生的情况是，如果你在家里自己在床上这样做，这通常与强烈的入侵者感觉有关，似乎是这样。
Now, your context was a little different.
现在，你的背景有点不同了。
And it turns out that if you look at these descriptions of sleep paralysis where you can't wake up, you can't shout out, you can't move, you have this sense of another presence or another being in the room, it adequately explains most, if not all, alien abduction stories.
事实证明，如果你看看这些关于睡眠瘫痪的描述，你无法醒来，你无法喊叫，你无法移动，你有一种房间里有另一个存在或另一个存在的感觉，它充分解释了大多数（如果不是全部）外星人绑架故事。
Because when was the last time you saw a news article or on the news that someone said, "Okay, today it was very clear that Jimmy in Wisconsin, in the middle of the day, was abducted by aliens, and everyone saw it." You're at the meeting table and whoosh, what happened?
因为你最后一次看到新闻文章或新闻中有人说：“好吧，今天很明显，威斯康星州的吉米在中午被外星人绑架了，每个人都看到了。”你坐在会议桌上，突然，发生了什么？
That was Jimmy, he just got whisked off by an alien.
那是吉米，他刚刚被外星人带走了。
It doesn't happen that way.
事情并非如此。
It's normally that you're in bed at night, it's the early morning hours just before you're waking up.
通常，您在晚上上床睡觉，这是您醒来之前的凌晨时间。
These aliens came into the room, they injected something into you, they paralyzed you.
这些外星人进入房间，他们给你注射了一些东西，他们让你瘫痪。
You couldn't shout, you couldn't move.
你无法喊叫，也无法动弹。
It's simply REM sleep paralysis.
这只是快速眼动睡眠麻痹。
Now, when do we see that?
现在，我们什么时候能看到这一点？
There are ways, and not ways, because these are not protocols that we advise.
有方法，但没有方法，因为这些不是我们建议的协议。
There are circumstances where the probability of that increases.
在某些情况下，这种情况的可能性会增加。
And I've experienced this, too.
我也经历过这样的事情。
When you are sleep-deprived or you are highly stressed, the likelihood that you will experience these REM sleep paralysis events upon awakening is increased.
当您睡眠不足或压力很大时，您醒来时经历快速眼动睡眠麻痹事件的可能性就会增加。
And for me, it was happening when I was a young PhD student, and I was studying sleep, and then I would be awake all night because I'd be monitoring the patients and looking at their sleep.
对我来说，这种情况发生在我还是一名年轻的博士生时，我正在研究睡眠，然后我会整晚醒着，因为我会监视患者并观察他们的睡眠。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The irony of sleep studies.
睡眠研究的讽刺。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
That you have to deprive yourself of the very thing that you are trying to study which, by the way, gives you some amazing insights for experiments-
你必须放弃你正在尝试研究的东西，顺便说一句，这会给你一些令人惊奇的实验见解——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure
当然可以
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
...
...
that I've had as a consequence.
我因此而遭受的后果。
Not that I would advise that as the way.
我并不建议这样做。
And we'll come on to why that's not wise when we speak about creativity.
当我们谈论创造力时，我们会明白为什么这是不明智的。
But we were doing these studies, and then I would go home, and then I would take a short period of sleep, maybe just two and a half hours of sleep, and then I would wake up.
但我们正在进行这些研究，然后我会回家，然后我会睡一小段时间，也许只睡两个半小时，然后我就会醒来。
I didn't want to because I was ready to go deep into sleep, but I would wake up, and then I would force myself to be awake throughout the day and try to get to bed at a reasonable time, because if I slept all day, what's going to happen?
我不想，因为我已经准备好进入深度睡眠了，但我会醒来，然后我会强迫自己一整天都保持清醒，并尝试在合理的时间上床睡觉，因为如果我睡了一整天，会发生什么？
I'm just going to be awake all the next night, and I'm going to be out of my rhythm.
第二天晚上我就会彻夜难眠，而且我会失去我的节奏。
But what's interesting is that when I would wake up then, I would be waking up maybe at 10:00 a.m.
但有趣的是，当我醒来时，我可能会在上午 10:00 醒来。
in the morning, 11:00.
早上 11:00。
And at that point, if you're sleeping with someone like my phase, you are in a very REM sleep desiring state, that it's in those last morning hours and into the early morning hours when your brain wants to devour off the menu of sleep stages this thing called REM in vast quantities.
在这一点上，如果你和像我这样的人一起睡觉，你就会处于一种非常渴望快速眼动睡眠的状态，那就是在早上的最后几个小时和清晨，当你的大脑想要吞噬掉睡眠阶段的菜单时，这种东西被称为快速眼动睡眠。
So I was sleep-deprived, point number one.
所以我睡眠不足，这是第一点。
Second, I was going into a very REM sleep rich phase.
其次，我正进入一个非常丰富的快速眼动睡眠阶段。
In other words, higher likelihood of paralysis, and that occurred to me.
换句话说，瘫痪的可能性更高，我也想到了这一点。
Your description is also prototypical.
你的描述也很典型。
You've been drinking the night before, went out to the party.
前一天晚上你喝了酒，出去参加聚会。
We spoke about in one of our previous episodes that one of the problems with alcohol is that it's very good at blocking your REM sleep.
我们在之前的一集中谈到过，酒精的问题之一是它非常容易阻碍快速眼动睡眠。
So you'd been absent of REM sleep the prior night.
所以你前一天晚上没有进行快速眼动睡眠。
You built up what we call a REM sleep debt.
你积累了我们所说的快速眼动睡眠债。
And when you slept, all of a sudden what your brain wanted more, because it at least got some sleep, and there you're going to get mostly your deep sleep, the debt on the sheets of your balance account for sleep was not so great for deep non-REM But you were very much in debt with REM.
当你睡觉时，突然间你的大脑想要更多，因为它至少得到了一些睡眠，而且你将大部分时间进入深度睡眠，你的余额账户上的睡眠债务对于深度非快速眼动睡眠来说并不是那么大，但你在快速眼动睡眠中负债很多。
So what happened, as soon as you conked out on the couch, whoosh, you were probably straight into REM sleep.
那么发生了什么，当你在沙发上昏倒时，嗖嗖地，你可能会直接进入快速眼动睡眠。
And then when you woke up, you had this mismatch in timing between consciousness and the release of paralysis.
然后当你醒来时，你的意识和麻痹解除之间的时间不匹配。
What did you experience?
你经历了什么？
REM sleep paralysis.
快速眼动睡眠麻痹。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Love it.
喜欢它。
I mean, hate it.
我的意思是，讨厌它。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I did not enjoy it, but I love your description because it makes so very clear what happened.
我不喜欢它，但我喜欢你的描述，因为它非常清楚地说明了发生的事情。
And for those that have had the experience, it can be mildly stressful to terrifying.
对于那些有过这种经历的人来说，这可能会带来轻微的压力甚至令人恐惧。
So thank you for providing the therapy that is knowledge, and so that people don't stress it too much.
所以感谢您提供知识疗法，这样人们就不会过分强调它。
But we still dissuade people from consuming alcohol prior to sleep.
但我们仍然劝阻人们在睡觉前不要饮酒。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I want to take a brief break and acknowledge our sponsor, InsideTracker.
我想短暂休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 InsideTracker。
InsideTracker is a personalized nutrition platform that analyzes data from your blood and DNA to help you better understand your body and help you reach your health goals.
InsideTracker 是一个个性化营养平台，可分析您的血液和 DNA 数据，帮助您更好地了解您的身体并帮助您实现健康目标。
Now, I've long been a believer in getting regular blood work done, for the simple reason that many of the factors that impact your immediate and long-term health can only be analyzed from a quality blood test.
现在，我长期以来一直相信定期进行血液检查，原因很简单，影响您当前和长期健康的许多因素只能通过高质量的血液测试来分析。
The problem with a lot of blood tests out there, however, is that you get information back about metabolic factors, hormones, et cetera, but you don't know what to do with that information.
然而，大量血液测试的问题在于，您得到有关代谢因素、激素等的信息，但您不知道如何处理这些信息。
With InsideTracker, they make it very easy to understand your results, and they also point you to specific directives that you can follow in the realm of nutrition, exercise, supplementation, even prescription drugs that can help bring the levels back into the ranges that are optimal for you.
借助 InsideTracker，您可以轻松了解您的结果，并且还为您提供在营养、锻炼、补充剂甚至处方药领域可以遵循的具体指示，以帮助将水平恢复到最适合您的范围。
InsideTracker also offers InsideTracker Pro, which enables coaches and health professionals to provide premium and personalized services by leveraging InsideTracker's analysis and recommendations with their clients.
InsideTracker 还提供 InsideTracker Pro，使教练和健康专业人员能够利用 InsideTracker 的分析和向客户提供的建议来提供优质和个性化的服务。
If you'd like to try InsideTracker, you can go to insidetracker.com/huberman to get 20% off any of InsideTracker's plans.
如果您想尝试 InsideTracker，您可以访问 insidetracker.com/huberman，享受任何 InsideTracker 计划 20% 的折扣。
Again, that's insidetracker.com/huberman.
同样，这是 insidetracker.com/huberman。
Okay, so we've been discussing complete paralysis, and of course, that's the inability to move.
好的，我们一直在讨论完全瘫痪，当然，那就是无法移动。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's talk about the ability to move, meaning motor learning.
我们来谈谈移动的能力，即运动学习。
What is the relationship between sleep and learning physical skills, either coordination of motor movement or, who knows, maybe increased power output or endurance?
睡眠和学习身体技能之间有什么关系，无论是协调运动运动，还是增加功率输出或耐力，谁知道呢？
And if you would, could you comment on whether or not there are specific phases of sleep that are specifically linked to motor learning?
如果您愿意，您能否评论一下是否存在与运动学习特别相关的特定睡眠阶段？
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah, great question.
是的，很好的问题。
So what we've spoken about so far is that you need sleep after learning for that textbook-like memory, and that is one category of memory that resides within your brain.
到目前为止，我们所讨论的是，学习后需要睡眠才能获得教科书般的记忆，这是驻留在大脑中的一类记忆。
There's another type of memory that you've spoken about which many of us don't realize is memory, and that's what we call non-declarative or procedural skill memory.
您提到过另一种类型的记忆，我们很多人都没有意识到，那就是记忆，这就是我们所说的非陈述性或程序性技能记忆。
So if I were to ask you, "Okay, Andrew, last night for dinner or yesterday for lunch, do you remember what it was that you had to eat?" And my guess is that you could probably tell me.
所以如果我问你，“好吧，安德鲁，昨晚吃晚饭或昨天吃午餐，你还记得你必须吃什么吗？”我猜你可能会告诉我。
So do you recall what some of that food was?
那么你还记得那些食物是什么吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My diet's pretty boring.
我的饮食很无聊。
In the sense I tend to eat more or less the same thing every day, although I'm open to being flexible.
从某种意义上说，我倾向于每天吃或多或少相同的东西，尽管我愿意灵活变通。
Yesterday for lunch, I had two grass-fed hamburger patties, maybe a little bit of rice, a sliced cucumber, some tomatoes, and because I'm a drive-by blueberry eater, there were some blueberries out on the counter, and I had several large fistfuls of those.
昨天午餐时，我吃了两个草饲汉堡肉饼，也许还有一点米饭，一片黄瓜，一些西红柿，因为我是一个开车路过的蓝莓食者，所以柜台上有一些蓝莓，我有好几把。
And then I washed it down with some water and a half mug, just like this, of some cold brew sugar-free yerba mate.
然后我用一些水和半杯水冲下去，就像这样，一些冷泡无糖马黛茶。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
And I can confirm, folks, I was there at the incident, and that's exactly what he had.
伙计们，我可以确认，我当时在现场，而这正是他所经历的。
But did everyone who is watching or listening just realize what happened in this room today?
但所有正在观看或聆听的人都意识到今天这个房间里发生了什么吗？
Something that Einstein suggested would never be possible, that Andrew just traveled back in time.
爱因斯坦提出的事情永远不可能实现，安德鲁只是回到了过去。
That using this incredible gift of memory, you folded time, almost like a concertina compressing it, and you raced back within milliseconds.
利用这种令人难以置信的记忆天赋，你可以折叠时间，就像手风琴压缩它一样，然后你在几毫秒内飞回。
You were shaking your head, yes, I know what I had.
你摇摇头，是的，我知道我有什么。
And you raced back into that catalog of all of your previous lunches.
然后你又跑回之前所有午餐的目录。
You found the correct manila folder for that specific lunch, all of the details, and out it popped.
您找到了该特定午餐的正确马尼拉文件夹以及所有详细信息，然后将其弹出。
That is a spectacularly complex computational process that your brain's memory system accomplished within milliseconds.
这是一个极其复杂的计算过程，大脑的记忆系统在几毫秒内完成。
It's stunning what we have as this gift of memory.
我们所拥有的记忆天赋真是令人惊叹。
But as I said, there's another type of memory.
但正如我所说，还有另一种类型的记忆。
So if I were to ask you, "Okay, how do you ride a bike?" It's very difficult.
所以如果我问你：“好吧，你怎么骑自行车？”这是非常困难的。
There is no textbook for here is how to ride a bike.
这里没有关于如何骑自行车的教科书。
The way that you do it when you're a child is that you are taught how to learn how to ride a bike by being on it.
当你还是个孩子的时候，你会被教导如何通过骑自行车来学习如何骑自行车。
So if I were to say, because I'm a longtime cyclist, how do I take a right turn with my bicycle?
那么，如果我说，因为我是一个长期骑自行车的人，我该如何骑自行车右转呢？
The obvious suggestion would be, well, you turn the handlebars.
最明显的建议是，转动车把。
If you turn the handlebars at 30 miles an hour trying to go around a right bend, you're going to crash very quickly.
如果您以每小时 30 英里的速度转动车把试图绕过右弯，您很快就会崩溃。
What, in fact, you do is you alter the steering angle just a little, but you lean, and that is what we call non-declarative, meaning you can't declare to me what it is that you know.
事实上，你所做的就是稍微改变转向角度，但你倾斜了，这就是我们所说的非声明性，这意味着你不能向我声明你知道什么。
You just have to show me through action and behavior.
你只需要通过行动和行为向我展示。
This is skill learning, and we use it for things like sports, surgical procedures, flying planes.
这是技能学习，我们将其用于体育、外科手术、驾驶飞机等方面。
There are so many, musical performance as well, so many aspects.
还有很多，音乐表演，很多方面。
So we wanted to then say, well, sleep is helpful after learning for fact-based memory, but what about this other type of memory?
所以我们想说，嗯，在学习基于事实的记忆后，睡眠是有帮助的，但是其他类型的记忆呢？
And in truth, I didn't come up with the idea.
事实上，这个主意不是我想出来的。
It was given to me back in the, gosh, I'm aging myself, in the early 2000s.
它是在 2000 年代初给我的，天啊，我自己也开始变老了。
I was back in the UK, and I gave a lecture for the decade of the brain, which it was back then.
我回到英国，做了一场关于大脑十年的讲座，那是当时的情况。
And at the end of the course, I'd spoken a little bit about sleep and this informational processing, but no evidence for motor skill memory.
在课程结束时，我谈到了一些关于睡眠和信息处理的内容，但没有证据表明运动技能记忆。
And this gentleman, lovely gentleman, old gentleman with a sort of a white beard.
这位绅士，可爱的绅士，留着白胡子的老绅士。
I remember his tweed jacket, this green hue.
我记得他的花呢夹克，绿色的色调。
It was beautiful.
很漂亮。
And he came up to me at the end, and he said, "Look, I'm a musician.
最后他走到我面前说：“看，我是一名音乐家。
I'm a pianist." And I was fascinated by what you said about sleep.
我是一名钢琴家。”我对你所说的睡眠很感兴趣。
Sometimes I'll sit down and I'm learning a new piece, and I just don't seem to be able to get it, and I practice, practice, and practice into the evening, and then I just stop.
有时我会坐下来学习一首新曲子，但我似乎无法掌握它，我练习、练习、练习到晚上，然后我就停下来。
And then I come back the next day and I sit down at the piano, and I can just play.
然后第二天我回来，坐在钢琴前，我就可以弹了。
Do you think that's sleep?
你以为这就是睡觉吗？
And of course, at that moment, my mind starts just Rolodexing with ideas and I'm thinking, gosh, there's the next 10 years of my work and grants.
当然，在那一刻，我的脑子里开始充满想法，我在想，天哪，这就是我接下来 10 年的工作和资助。
And so I sort of said, look, I think it's a fascinating hypothesis.
所以我说，看，我认为这是一个令人着迷的假设。
It could also be that you're just maybe a little bit tired in the evening.
也可能是您晚上有点累。
But it's entirely possible.
但这是完全有可能的。
I don't know of any evidence yet that supports that.
我还不知道有任何证据支持这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I suppose the alternative hypothesis that there's simply a certain amount of time that needs to elapse after experiencing something new that one wants to learn.
我认为另一种假设是，在经历了一个人想要学习的新事物之后，需要经过一定的时间。
The trigger for learning is, I don't know, some biochemical/neural signal that's like a wave front, and it takes a while for that wave to go ashore, which is learning.
我不知道，学习的触发因素是一些生化/神经信号，就像波前，这个波需要一段时间才能上岸，这就是学习。
And that independent of how much sleep one gets or the quality of sleep, that the learning could occur.
学习的发生与一个人的睡眠时间或睡眠质量无关。
I suppose that's one idea.
我想这就是一个想法。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
No, that's in fact precisely the central hypothesis that we then set out to test, which is that maybe it's practice, then some time that helps you create that perfect motor routine.
不，这实际上正是我们随后要测试的中心假设，即也许练习，然后一段时间可以帮助您创建完美的运动习惯。
That's one hypothesis, but let's split that apart.
这是一个假设，但让我们把它分开。
Maybe it's time, but time spent awake, or is it time, but time spent asleep?
也许是时间，但是清醒的时间，或者是时间，但是睡着的时间？
So we designed a study to disambiguate between those two.
因此，我们设计了一项研究来消除这两者之间的歧义。
Both groups learned a motor skill task, and it's very much like learning a piano, and you learn a sequence of movements, let's just say 4-1-3-2-4.
两组都学习了一项运动技能任务，这非常像学习钢琴，你学习一系列动作，我们就说 4-1-3-2-4。
And we have you type that out over and over again for periods of 30 seconds, and then you rest for 30 seconds, and then you do it again.
我们让你在 30 秒内一遍又一遍地输入，然后休息 30 秒，然后再重复一遍。
You do 12 of those trials.
您进行了 12 次这样的试验。
And sure enough, practice seemed to get you better, and you were learning, and your learning curve went up.
果然，练习似乎让你变得更好，你在学习，你的学习曲线上升了。
And then we brought those participants back 12 hours later, and we retested them on that same motor memory.
12 小时后，我们将这些参与者带回来，并用相同的运动记忆重新测试他们。
Half of those participants spent that 12 hours awake.
一半的参与者在这 12 个小时里都醒着。
The others had a night of sleep in between, an eight-hour night of sleep.
其他人中间睡了一晚，睡了八个小时。
When we brought the people who had learned in the morning and tested in the evening without sleep, they had retained that memory.
当我们把那些早上学过、晚上不睡觉地测试的人带来时，他们就保留了这种记忆。
They were no worse.
他们并不更糟。
They were just no better.
他们也好不到哪儿去。
But in the people who had slept, what was stunning was that they had improved their performance output speed by 20%, and they'd improved their accuracy by almost 37%.
但在睡过觉的人身上，令人惊叹的是，他们的表现输出速度提高了 20%，准确率提高了近 37%。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
So, in other words, it wasn't time that you needed to produce perfection.
所以，换句话说，现在还不是你需要创造完美的时候。
It was time with sleep.
是时候睡觉了。
In other words, you've often heard the statement, practice makes perfect, but we violated that edict.
换句话说，你经常听到这样一句话：熟能生巧，但我们违反了这条法令。
It wasn't practice that makes perfect.
练习并不能使人变得完美。
It's practice with a night of sleep that makes or leads to perfection.
通过一整夜的睡眠进行练习才能达到完美。
In other words, after learning, your brain continues to improve in the absence of any further practice.
换句话说，学习之后，你的大脑在没有任何进一步练习的情况下会继续提高。
However, that learning occurs exclusively during periods of offline sleep and not across equivalent time periods while you're awake.
然而，这种学习仅发生在离线睡眠期间，而不是在您清醒时的同等时间段内发生。
Now, what was interesting in the group that remained awake across those 12 hours, we then actually brought them back after a further 12 hours, but now after a night of sleep, and they showed that beautiful benefit.
现在，有趣的是，在这 12 小时内保持清醒的小组中，我们实际上在另外 12 小时后将他们带回来，但现在经过一夜的睡眠，他们表现出了美妙的好处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the sleep that can, let's say, enhance, although I think what we're really talking about here that consolidates motor learning-
因此，可以说，睡眠可以增强睡眠，尽管我认为我们在这里真正谈论的是巩固运动学习——
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
can arrive the night after, meaning one finishes, let's say, learning at, I don't know, 11:00 a.m., and then they sleep later that night or the following night, and in both instances, that sleep can enhance or, let's say, consolidate the motor learning that occurred.
可以在后一天晚上到达，这意味着一个人在上午 11:00 完成学习，我不知道，然后他们在当晚或第二天晚上睡得很晚，在这两种情况下，睡眠都可以增强或巩固发生的运动学习。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
That's right.
没错。
So it was to your question, actually, that we discussed earlier, and I recall now I didn't answer it, which is that the things that you learn throughout the day, you don't have to worry about learning them really close to bedtime so that they're available and accessible for this sleep-dependent work of sleep after learning.
所以，实际上，我们之前讨论过你的问题，我现在记得我没有回答它，那就是你全天学习的东西，你不必担心在临睡前学习它们，这样它们就可以在学习后进行这种依赖于睡眠的睡眠工作。
It seems to be that the human brain, and we've plotted this, we've looked at what point does the brain sort of fail in terms of its ability to place on hold, sort of on the runway, ready to take off into the consolidation phase.
似乎人类的大脑，我们已经绘制了这一点，我们已经研究了大脑在什么时候会在暂停、在跑道上准备起飞进入巩固阶段的能力方面出现故障。
And it seems to be about 16 hours-
而且好像有16个小时左右——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
...
...
that you can hold on to those freshly formed memories for about 16 hours, and then you get the chance to sleep and consolidate them.
你可以将这些新形成的记忆保留大约 16 个小时，然后你就有机会睡觉并巩固它们。
So if you learn at 11:00 in the morning or if you learn at 7:00 p.m.
因此，如果您在上午 11:00 学习或在晚上 7:00 学习。
in the evening, don't worry about that.
晚上的话，不用担心这个。
Those memories are still going to be gathered together in the beautiful receptive arms of sleep and then knitted up and enhanced when it comes to procedural memories.
这些记忆仍然会被聚集在睡眠美丽的接收臂中，然后在程序性记忆方面被编织和增强。
And by the way, that's a key difference to those two types of memory.
顺便说一句，这是这两种类型的记忆的关键区别。
Sleep will take fact-based memories and simply save them so that you don't forget.
睡眠会带走基于事实的记忆并简单地保存它们，这样你就不会忘记。
It doesn't necessarily boost them anymore.
它不一定再促进他们。
It just simply prevents you from forgetting, which is what would happen otherwise across a waking day.
它只是防止你忘记，否则在醒着的一天就会发生这种情况。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Ah, key point.
啊，关键点。
It's not enhancement, it's consolidation of, or essentially, the way I might think about it is the new information is put into a potential memory bank, and that information is either flushed or maintained depending on whether or not you get sleep.
这不是增强，而是巩固，或者本质上，我可能会这样想：新信息被放入潜在的记忆库中，并且该信息要么被刷新，要么被保留，具体取决于您是否睡觉。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
That's right.
没错。
In-
在-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's no enhancement.
没有任何增强。
Enhancement would be supernormal levels of memory if you sleep.
如果你睡觉的话，记忆力会提高到超常水平。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
And that's the case for textbook-like memory.
教科书般的记忆力就是如此。
In other words, sleep comes in and it stems the blood flow of forgetting from the memory wound, as it were, to get I don't know why I came up with...
换句话说，睡眠进来了，它可以阻止记忆伤口中遗忘的血液流动，让我不知道我为什么想出……
That's a terrible analogy, but I think you-
这是一个可怕的比喻，但我认为你-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I like it.
不，我喜欢。
I guess we might say hemorrhage, right?
我想我们可能会说出血，对吧？
Like it's-
就像它是-
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
So sleep comes in and prevents that from happening.
因此，睡眠可以防止这种情况发生。
But with motor memories, it is enhancement.
但对于运动记忆来说，它是增强的。
It's that when you're awake across the day, you don't get any worse, which is what happens with fact textbook memory.
当你一整天都醒着的时候，你不会变得更糟，这就是事实教科书记忆中发生的情况。
You hold that performance, but then sleep comes in and it boosts you even further.
你保持了这种表现，但随后睡眠到来，它会进一步增强你的活力。
You get a nice benefit without doing anything further.
您无需做任何进一步的事情即可获得很好的好处。
So then the question became, to your point, if sleep is doing that, if it's not practice that makes perfect, but practice with sleep, what is it about the sleep?
那么问题就变成了，就你的观点而言，如果睡眠能做到这一点，如果不是练习使完美，而是通过睡眠进行练习，那么睡眠又是什么呢？
So we looked at their sleep physiology, and what we found were two interesting components.
因此，我们研究了他们的睡眠生理学，发现了两个有趣的组成部分。
First, it seemed to be related to that lighter form of stage two non-REM sleep.
首先，它似乎与第二阶段非快速眼动睡眠的较轻形式有关。
I told you that textbook memory requires deep non-REM sleep stages three and four, casting back to episode one.
我告诉过你，教科书上的记忆需要深度非快速眼动睡眠的第三和第四阶段，回到第一集。
Motor memory, more dependent on stage two, and those beautiful spindles that are the hallmark of beginning your stage two.
运动记忆，更依赖于第二阶段，以及那些美丽的纺锤体，这是第二阶段开始的标志。
The more of those that you had, the greater the memory benefit the next day.
你拥有的越多，第二天的记忆力就越大。
We then wanted to say, well, is this effect simply something to do with the nighttime?
然后我们想说，这种效果是否仅仅与夜间有关？
Because that's the other hypothesis.
因为那是另一个假设。
It's not really about sleep, it's just something about nighttime-ness, because in all of the studies I described so far, they're all happening at night, and at night they were sleeping.
这实际上与睡眠无关，而只是与夜间有关，因为在我迄今为止描述的所有研究中，它们都发生在晚上，而且晚上他们都在睡觉。
So is it really nighttime or is it specifically sleep?
那么这到底是晚上还是专门睡觉呢？
So now we did a nap study with motor skill learning.
所以现在我们进行了一项关于运动技能学习的午睡研究。
We repeated that, and sure enough, even though that time period was across the day, not during night-ness, they showed this beautiful motor skill benefit if they napped versus if they did not.
我们重复了这一点，果然，即使那段时间是白天，而不是夜间，如果他们打盹，与不打瞌睡相比，他们就会表现出这种美妙的运动技能优势。
And then in that nap study, I was telling you that they were learning the sequence with the right non-dominant hand, and we selected all right-handers to make it equal.
然后在那次午睡研究中，我告诉你他们正在用右手非惯用手学习序列，我们选择了所有右手使用者以使其相等。
And they were typing 4-1-3-2-4, 4-1-3-2-4.
他们输入的是 4-1-3-2-4、4-1-3-2-4。
And that right hand, as well you know, is controlled by the left motor cortex.
正如你所知，右手是由左运动皮层控制的。
So in the nap study when we recorded their sleep, we used very high density EEG, so lots and lots of sensors on top of the head, so we could map with high fidelity resolution the surface of the brain or the surface of the scalp and infer what's going on in the brain.
因此，在午睡研究中，当我们记录他们的睡眠时，我们使用了非常高密度的脑电图，所以头顶上有很多很多的传感器，所以我们可以以高保真分辨率绘制大脑表面或头皮表面的地图，并推断大脑中发生了什么。
And what was interesting is that, yes, those sleep spindles, the more of them that you had in the nap, the better your motor skill learning was.
有趣的是，是的，那些睡眠纺锤波，你在小睡中的睡眠纺锤波越多，你的运动技能学习就越好。
But there seemed to be a lateralized effect such that the sleep spindle activity on the right side of the brain, which controls the left hand, which was not working, that showed no spindle increase in activity.
但似乎存在一种偏侧效应，即控制左手的大脑右侧的睡眠纺锤体活动，左手不起作用，但显示纺锤体活动没有增加。
However, on the right-hand activity that invoked activation in the left motor cortex, that left motor cortex, and specifically the hand region, showed a local increase in spindle activity.
然而，在引起左运动皮层激活的右手活动中，左运动皮层，特别是手部区域，显示出纺锤体活动的局部增加。
And subsequent work and work prior to ours had demonstrated that it's not sleep physiology globally.
随后的工作和我们之前的工作已经证明，这不是全球性的睡眠生理学。
It's almost as though your sleep physiology responds to the mapping of the memory in the brain.
就好像您的睡眠生理机能对大脑中的记忆映射做出反应。
Wherever the memory is, that's where sleep, when you go to sleep, sort of starts massaging the cortex so that you get that plasticity.
无论记忆在哪里，睡眠就在那里，当你入睡时，大脑皮层就会开始按摩，这样你就能获得可塑性。
It's almost like a good masseuse.
这几乎就像一个好的按摩师。
You sort of sit down, they say, "Where are your problem points?" And you say, "It's here and here." And so they don't give you a general massage.
你坐下来，他们会说：“你的问题点在哪里？”你说：“就在这里，就在这里。”所以他们不会给你一般的按摩。
They go to work on the regions that have been working hardest, that require greatest attention.
他们去工作最努力、最需要关注的地区工作。
Sleep does that.
睡眠就是这样做的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's amazing and reminds me of some of this work that was done, I think in the late '90s, early 2000s.
这太神奇了，让我想起了一些在 90 年代末、2000 年代初完成的工作。
Richard Morris and colleagues over in, I think he was in Edinburgh, talked about synaptic tagging.
理查德·莫里斯（Richard Morris）和他的同事，我想他在爱丁堡，谈论了突触标记。
This notion that animals or humans perform or learn some new motor skill, maybe navigation of a novel environment, maybe a motor skill of the 4-1-2-3-4 that you described, keys on a piano or something like that.
动物或人类执行或学习一些新的运动技能的概念，可能是在新环境中导航，可能是您描述的 4-1-2-3-4 的运动技能，钢琴上的琴键或类似的东西。
And then it was acknowledged that the changes in the connections between neurons don't occur immediately, which meant that there had to be some sort of tag or label to the synapses that marked them for consolidation later for plasticity, long-term potentiation, things of that sort.
然后人们认识到神经元之间连接的变化不会立即发生，这意味着突触必须有某种标记或标签，标记它们以便稍后巩固以实现可塑性、长期增强等。
The names don't really matter.
名字其实并不重要。
I think later it became clear based on Marcus Frank's work and others that indeed during sleep, the hard rewiring of the nervous system occurs, plasticity occurs.
我认为后来根据马库斯·弗兰克和其他人的工作，人们清楚地认识到，确实在睡眠期间，神经系统发生了硬性重新布线，发生了可塑性。
But what you're saying is that there's a high degree of specificity, meaning the specific circuits that were active and required for the learning are the specific circuits that are modified, which on the face of it one could say, well, of course.
但你所说的是，存在高度的特异性，这意味着学习所需的活跃的特定电路是经过修改的特定电路，从表面上看，人们可以说，当然，是的。
But what that means is that during sleep, the neurons of the brain are able to chemically or electrically or both signal like, this is where there needs to be some modifications done.
但这意味着在睡眠期间，大脑的神经元能够发出化学或电信号或两者兼而有之的信号，这就是需要进行一些修改的地方。
And then like a night crew, the brain self-induces its own changes, which is remarkable.
然后，就像夜间工作人员一样，大脑会自我引发自己的变化，这是值得注意的。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
It really is.
确实如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's really remarkable.
这真的很了不起。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
It's almost as though there are red flags that are planted in the territories that have undergone learning-dependent plasticity, and they are calling out almost like hungry mouths that are in plasticity famine for the feast relief that comes by way of sleep.
就好像在经历了依赖于学习的可塑性的领域里插上了危险信号，它们就像处于可塑性饥荒中的饥饿的嘴巴一样呼唤着通过睡眠来缓解的盛宴。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do we know what the factors are that are released in sleep that allow that to occur?
我们知道睡眠中释放的哪些因素导致了这种情况的发生吗？
Or I'm guessing there are many.
或者我猜有很多。
People love to talk about brain-derived neurotrophic factor, BDNF, which is a very interesting molecule, but it's probably just one of a panoply of molecules that are important.
人们喜欢谈论脑源性神经营养因子 BDNF，这是一种非常有趣的分子，但它可能只是众多重要分子中的一个。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
We don't know necessarily the neurochemical processes, although some people have manipulated plasticity and then blocked it with different types of NMDA, which is a certain type of receptor in the brain for excitatory activity, which is the underlying basis of brain plasticity.
我们不一定知道神经化学过程，尽管有些人操纵了可塑性，然后用不同类型的 NMDA 阻断它，NMDA 是大脑中负责兴奋活动的某种受体，是大脑可塑性的根本基础。
So that certainly is dependent, but what's interesting about the sleep spindles, I said in the first episode that they burst somewhere between about 12 to 15 times per second.
所以这当然是相关的，但睡眠纺锤波的有趣之处在于，我在第一集中说过，它们每秒爆发约 12 到 15 次。
Brr, brr, brr If you apply that type of stimulation to a particular neuronal circuit within the brain, that seems to be one of the, and it's not the only, but one of the ideal sort of sweet spot tickling of neurons that forces them to say, "Ooh, I think I should strengthen this circuit."
brr，brr，brr 如果你将这种类型的刺激应用于大脑内的特定神经元回路，这似乎是一种，而且不是唯一的，但却是一种理想的神经元最佳点痒痒，迫使它们说，“哦，我想我应该加强这个回路。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
So it's almost as though these sleep spindles are ideally designed at the frequency, at the sort of tickling level of neurons to stimulate exactly what we think is the underlying basis of strengthening a memory, which is at the level of the neurons, the strengthening of synapses.
因此，这些睡眠纺锤波似乎是按照神经元的频率、神经元的痒痒程度进行了理想的设计，以准确地刺激我们认为加强记忆的根本基础，即在神经元水平上，即突触的强化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So interesting, because we hear this fire together, wire together, high frequency transmission between neurons is what creates plasticity, but this is literally a replay of previously, meaning earlier that day or the previous day, as you pointed out, activity in the given circuit being replayed, not unlike the work that you talked about earlier, the fast replay of neurons in the hippocampus.
很有趣，因为我们听到这火在一起，连接在一起，神经元之间的高频传输创造了可塑性，但这实际上是先前的重播，意味着当天早些时候或前一天，正如您所指出的，给定电路中的活动被重播，与您之前谈到的工作不同，海马神经元的快速重播。
But here it's not necessarily just in the hippocampus, it can be in the neocortex or other structures, that then builds up the vigor with which that circuit can function in the daytime, AKA learning.
但在这里，它不一定只在海马体中，它也可以在新皮质或其他结构中，然后增强该回路在白天发挥作用的活力，也就是学习。
It's super interesting.
超级有趣。
You mentioned that this is occurring largely in stage two of sleep-
你提到这主要发生在睡眠的第二阶段——
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
not in rapid eye movement sleep.
不处于快速动眼睡眠状态。
Is this business of stage two being the main period of sleep in which motor learning occurs unique to motor learning?
第二阶段是运动学习发生的主要睡眠时期，是运动学习所特有的吗？
In other words, cognitive information surely can get wired into the brain at night, but is that largely associated just with rapid eye movement sleep?
换句话说，认知信息肯定可以在夜间输入大脑，但这在很大程度上与快速眼动睡眠有关吗？
What this would suggest, in other words, is that the earlier stages of sleep one and two, and heading into three and four, serves a specific purpose, which is consolidation of motor skills and motor learning from the previous one or two days.
换句话说，这表明第一阶段和第二阶段睡眠的早期阶段，以及进入第三阶段和第四阶段的睡眠有一个特定的目的，即巩固前一两天的运动技能和运动学习。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
It does seem to be that stage two.
看来确实是第二阶段。
Stage one is, we now think of more of a transitional stage, but we will speak perhaps when we discuss the idea of creativity, that it also may have a memory function, that very light first step of sleep.
第一阶段是，我们现在更多地想到的是一个过渡阶段，但是当我们讨论创造力的想法时，我们也许会说它也可能具有记忆功能，即非常轻的睡眠的第一步。
Stage two is certainly related to motor skill.
第二阶段当然与运动技能有关。
In fact, stage two is fascinating.
事实上，第二阶段很有趣。
We used to think of it as just the stage that you had to go into to get to deep sleep, and the stage that you had to go back through to get up to REM sleep.
我们过去认为它只是你必须进入深度睡眠的阶段，以及你必须返回才能进入快速眼动睡眠的阶段。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Never made any sense to me.
对我来说从来没有任何意义。
Why?
为什么？
Because stage two non-REM sleep is about 40% to 50% of your night.
因为第二阶段非快速眼动睡眠大约占您夜间的 40% 到 50%。
Why would you spend 40% to 50% of your time asleep when it's just simply a gate to get to something better?
为什么你要把 40% 到 50% 的时间花在睡觉上，而这只是通向更好目标的大门呢？
You would spend more time in the something that's better stages.
你会花更多的时间在更好的阶段。
So we started to find functions, and stage two is distributed throughout the night, but those sleep spindles in stage two are not evenly distributed throughout the night.
所以我们开始寻找函数，第二阶段分布在整个晚上，但是第二阶段的那些睡眠纺锤体在整个晚上分布并不均匀。
You get some of them in the first quarter, more of them in the second quarter of sleep, certainly more in the third quarter, but you get a lot more of those sleep spindles in the last quarter of the night.
你会在第一季度得到一些睡眠纺锤波，在第二季度的睡眠中得到更多，在第三季度当然更多，但在晚上的最后四分之一你会得到更多的睡眠纺锤波。
And in fact, when we looked at the overnight study, where we had people learn in the evening, tested the next day, we recorded their sleep in between.
事实上，当我们研究隔夜研究时，我们让人们晚上学习，第二天进行测试，我们记录了他们之间的睡眠情况。
Yes, sleep spindles predicted, and stage two predicted how much better they were the next day, but it was especially stage two in the last quarter of the night.
是的，睡眠纺锤波可以预测，第二阶段可以预测第二天的情况有多好，但第二阶段尤其是在晚上的最后一刻。
Let's say I'm going to bed at, just for argument's sake, for ease, midnight, and I'm waking up at 8:00.
假设我要在午夜睡觉，只是为了争论，为了轻松，我将在 8:00 醒来。
It's in that sort of 6:00 a.m.
时间大约是早上 6:00。
to 8:00 a.m.
至上午 8:00
range when I, if I was going to sleep at that time, would be getting my stage two.
如果我当时要睡觉的话，我将进入第二阶段。
And I find that interesting because it is the time of night that we all feel it's okay to cut short to get a jump start on the day.
我觉得这很有趣，因为在晚上的时候，我们都觉得可以缩短时间来开始新的一天。
It's this modern life erosion of our sleep time, and what these findings would suggest is that you are short-changing your brain of some significant motor memory performance, especially those classic Olympic coaches that have their athletes training until 8:00 in the evening, and then they're in bed by sort of 10:00 or 11:00, but they have them waking up at 5:00, back on the athletic field at 6:00.
现代生活侵蚀了我们的睡眠时间，这些发现表明，你正在欺骗大脑某些重要的运动记忆表现，尤其是那些经典的奥运会教练，他们让运动员训练到晚上 8:00，然后他们在 10:00 或 11:00 左右上床睡觉，但他们让运动员在 5:00 起床，6:00 回到运动场。
But they would gain some additional motor memory benefit if you just let them sleep a little bit longer.
但如果你让他们睡得更久一点，他们就会获得一些额外的运动记忆益处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I recall there was a study done at Stanford, relatively small study, but interesting nonetheless because I think it was the basketball team that was- ...
我记得斯坦福大学做过一项研究，规模相对较小，但仍然很有趣，因为我认为篮球队——……
asked to spend, I think, an additional two hours in bed.
我想，他被要求在床上多呆两个小时。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
It's a sleep extension study.
这是一项延长睡眠的研究。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And they were even told that they could do other things in bed besides sleep.
他们甚至被告知，除了睡觉之外，他们还可以在床上做其他事情。
There might have been some specifications of things they should not do in bed during that time.
可能有一些规定他们在那段时间不应该在床上做的事情。
But at least by self-report, some of the students said that they slept a bit more, or they relaxed a bit more in bed.
但至少根据自我报告，一些学生表示他们睡得更多了，或者在床上放松了一些。
And indeed, when compared to the control group, there was a significant improvement in their, I forget if it was three throw, free throw percentage, excuse me, or other metrics of basketball performance.
事实上，与对照组相比，他们的，我忘了是三分球，罚球命中率，对不起，还是其他篮球表现指标有了显着的改善。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah, it was the point-scoring performance.
是的，这就是得分表演。
It was the speed up and down the court, and it was a great study done by Cheri Maher at Stanford University.
这是球场上来回的速度，这是斯坦福大学的切里·马赫（Cheri Maher）所做的一项伟大的研究。
And she's done epic work with athletes to sort of replicate those findings.
她与运动员一起进行了史诗般的工作，以复制这些发现。
And the athlete story is interesting.
运动员的故事很有趣。
Some people may be saying, "Well, didn't you just make a hop, skip, and a jump from four, one, three, two, four to inferring complex motor skill?" I thought about that, so we did a new series of studies where we-- This is control.
有些人可能会说，“好吧，你不是只是从四、一、三、二、四跳来跳去，推断出复杂的运动技能吗？”我想到了这一点，所以我们做了一系列新的研究，我们——这就是控制。
That's the nice thing about the sort of typing on a sequence.
这就是在序列上键入的好处。
You can really measure that performance with high sort of accuracy.
您确实可以高精度地衡量该性能。
But we then switched it to a bimanual task, much more like learning to play a piano.
但我们随后将其切换为双手任务，更像学习弹钢琴。
And you were learning sequences that were 12, 14 items in length, and you had to learn them over and over.
你正在学习长度为 12、14 个项目的序列，你必须一遍又一遍地学习它们。
And we had a hypothesis Would sleep fail at the task when motor skill performance became much more complex, or would it be different?
我们有一个假设：当运动技能表现变得更加复杂时，睡眠会无法完成任务，还是会有所不同？
And what we found was that the more and more complex the motor skill became, the greater and the greater the benefit of sleep by way of that consolidation effect.
我们发现，运动技能变得越来越复杂，睡眠通过巩固效应带来的好处也越来越大。
And then I started to hear something, because I would often be in the room as these participants were learning the sequence, and then as they were testing.
然后我开始听到一些声音，因为当这些参与者学习序列，然后当他们进行测试时，我经常会在房间里。
And my ears started to hear something that I couldn't quite believe to begin with.
我的耳朵开始听到一些我一开始不敢相信的声音。
They would start to learn these motor sequences, but they would seem to have these pauses, and it's what we call chunking in motor skill memory.
他们会开始学习这些运动序列，但他们似乎会有这些停顿，这就是我们所说的运动技能记忆中的分块。
So instead of 41324, 41324, they would do 41324, 41324.
因此，他们会执行 41324、41324，而不是 41324、41324。
And I would have them be using the same keyboard, and I got to know the sound of the keyboard, so I could hear it.
我会让他们使用相同的键盘，并且我了解键盘的声音，这样我就能听到它。
41324, 41324.
41324, 41324。
And then when they came back the next day, yes, they were performing faster, but they weren't just doing 41324, 41324.
然后当他们第二天回来时，是的，他们表现得更快了，但他们不仅仅是做 41324、41324。
They were simply doing 41324, 41324.
他们只是在做 41324、41324。
There was no gap at all.
根本没有任何间隙。
So we went into the individual responses, individual motor sort of finger responses.
所以我们研究了个体反应，个体运动的手指反应。
And sure enough, before sleep, there were these very clear problem points, almost these pain points in the motor memory sequence.
果然，在睡觉之前，有这些非常明确的问题点，几乎是运动记忆序列中的这些痛点。
But then when we came back after a night of sleep and looked at their data, it wasn't as though sleep simply grabbed the motor skill memory sort of profile and lifted everything up.
但当我们睡了一晚回来查看他们的数据时，我们发现睡眠并不是简单地抓住了运动技能记忆的轮廓并提升了一切。
Sleep was selectively going after those pain points and improving them.
睡眠是有选择地追踪这些痛点并改善它们。
And that, to me, was interesting because that's the goal of a good athlete.
对我来说，这很有趣，因为这是一名优秀运动员的目标。
It is automaticity.
这是自动化。
You don't want to be thinking about it.
你不想去想它。
At some point, you go from a very conscious act of deliberately trying to remember what you should be doing, to then not thinking about it at all.
在某些时候，你会从一种非常有意识的行为，故意试图记住你应该做什么，然后完全不去想它。
It's only automaticity that gives you that ability not to think, and it operates below the level of consciousness.
只有自动性才能赋予你不思考的能力，并且它在意识水平以下运作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Super interesting.
超级有趣。
And here we're talking about specific changes in the brain, in terms of neural activity, et cetera, that occur during sleep when we've been exposed to or engaged in a particular novel for us motor skill.
在这里，我们谈论的是大脑在神经活动等方面的具体变化，这些变化是在我们接触或参与特定的小说时在睡眠期间发生的，以提高我们的运动技能。
And you see these spindles in stage two, et cetera.
你会在第二阶段看到这些纺锤体，等等。
But does it work the other way as well?
但反之亦然吗？
Meaning, does the process of trying to learn a new motor skill enhance certain components of sleep or maybe even one's ability to sleep?
意思是，尝试学习新的运动技能的过程是否会增强睡眠的某些组成部分，甚至可能增强一个人的睡眠能力？
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Years ago, I heard that practicing unilateral leg movements, this is perhaps a crazy idea, but it makes sense in the context of what we're talking about.
多年前，我听说练习单侧腿部动作，这也许是一个疯狂的想法，但在我们谈论的背景下却是有道理的。
Practicing unilateral leg movements, things like everyone's familiar with squats and deadlifts and things of that sort, but there are some one-legged movements.
练习单侧腿部动作，比如大家都熟悉的深蹲、硬拉之类的，但也有一些单腿动作。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Like a pistol squat, right?
就像手枪深蹲一样，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like a pistol squat, that's pretty hard.
就像手枪深蹲一样，这是非常困难的。
If one can do them, I'm always impressed.
如果有人能做到，我总是会印象深刻。
Bulgarian split squats, foot up on the bench and then squatting down with a dumbbell, things like that, or just unilateral movements that require a lot of mental attention to the performance of that movement.
保加利亚分腿深蹲，将脚放在长凳上，然后用哑铃蹲下，诸如此类，或者只是单方面的动作，需要大量的精神注意力来完成该动作。
Could be in the gym, but it could be something else as well.
可能是在健身房，但也可能是其他地方。
You think about a dancer trying to learn how to organize their steps, where they have to pay careful attention to right versus left foot, right?
你想像一个舞者试图学习如何组织他们的舞步，他们必须仔细注意右脚和左脚，对吧？
They always say people who can't dance have two right feet or two left feet.
人们总是说不会跳舞的人有两只右脚或两只左脚。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
By the way, for those listening, Andrew's looking at me right now when you're saying two right feet.
顺便说一句，对于那些听的人来说，当你说两只右脚时，安德鲁现在正在看着我。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, no, no.
不，不，不。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
And rightfully so.
这是理所当然的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I have no knowledge of your-
不，我不知道你的——
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Who you've been speaking to
你一直在和谁说话
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
dancing ability or challenges.
舞蹈能力或挑战。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Absence thereof.
不存在。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As I recall, there may have been some very preliminary data about changes in the amount of certain sleep stages according to whether or not someone had tried to learn a skill, in this case, unilateral limb performance the previous day.
我记得，根据某人是否尝试学习某项技能（在本例中为前一天的单侧肢体表现），可能有一些关于某些睡眠阶段量变化的非常初步的数据。
So in other words, if one wants to improve their sleep, would the attempt to learn a new motor skill be one avenue to improve one's sleep?
换句话说，如果一个人想改善睡眠，尝试学习一项新的运动技能是否是改善睡眠的一种途径？
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
It's interesting.
这很有趣。
If you look at some of the data, it's a little bit mixed in terms of motor skill learning, but there are some studies demonstrating that it's true for textbook-like memory, and there's a study, gosh, done many years ago, again, by the great German group of Jan Born.
如果你看一下一些数据，你会发现，在运动技能学习方面，情况有点复杂，但有一些研究表明，对于教科书般的记忆来说，这是正确的，天哪，有一项研究，是由伟大的德国扬·博恩团队在很多年前完成的。
And they simply asked the question, if you were to just not be learning very deliberately and intensively through a textbook-like set of information, and then we just measure your sleep to get a baseline, and then we force you to have a very long, very intensive learning session of these facts, and then we measure your sleep again, is there any difference relative to the non-intensive learning day versus the intensive learning day?
他们只是问了一个问题，如果你不通过像教科书一样的信息集非常刻意和集中地学习，然后我们只是测量你的睡眠以获得基线，然后我们强迫你对这些事实进行一个非常长、非常集中的学习课程，然后我们再次测量你的睡眠，相对于非集中学习日和集中学习日有什么区别吗？
And indeed, what they found was that there was an increase in their deep non-REM sleep, in their deep slow wave sleep.
事实上，他们发现，他们的深度非快速眼动睡眠（深度慢波睡眠）有所增加。
And again, we think it's almost, we describe it as a homeostatic response, which is just a fancy way of saying that when the brain is driven to undergo a demand, then sleep will respond to try to accommodate that demand.
再说一遍，我们认为这几乎是一种稳态反应，这只是一种奇特的说法，当大脑被迫接受某种需求时，睡眠就会做出反应，试图适应这种需求。
And so I would say that there are probably many other things, and we discussed this in episode two in terms of, A, how to optimize your sleep, that probably carry a bigger bang for your buck in terms of optimizing and enhancing your sleep.
所以我想说，可能还有很多其他的事情，我们在第二集中讨论了这个问题，A，如何优化你的睡眠，这可能会给你的优化和增强睡眠带来更大的好处。
But is there any evidence to suggest that that's the case?
但有任何证据表明情况确实如此吗？
There does seem to be some evidence in the literature, yeah.
文献中似乎确实有一些证据，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So interesting.
太有趣了。
I certainly know the experience of trying to learn a lot of information and then feeling like my sleep is that much deeper.
我当然知道尝试学习大量信息然后感觉我的睡眠更深的经历。
Although I've also experienced the challenges in, quote-unquote, turning my brain off when I've been trying-
尽管我也经历过挑战，引用不引用，当我一直在尝试时，我的大脑就停止了——
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to learn something, and then it's late in the evening.
去学点东西，然后就已经是晚上了。
Forget the caffeine component.
忘记咖啡因成分。
Just the information is spooling in my head, maybe some A pre-test anxiety, that kind of thing.
只是这些信息在我的脑海中盘旋，也许是一些测试前的焦虑之类的事情。
So I think that the tools and protocols that you offered so generously in episodes one, two, and three are especially important under those conditions.
因此，我认为您在第一、第二和第三集中提供的工具和协议在这种情况下尤其重要。
Learning how to really taper off one's level of thinking and planning and arousal in the evening, really bring things down so that one can access that sleep.
学习如何真正减少晚上的思考、计划和唤醒水平，真正降低事情的强度，以便人们能够进入睡眠状态。
One only wishes that the more we did during the day- ...
人们只希望我们白天做得越多——......
the easier it would be to sleep.
越容易入睡。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think to some extent that's true, but there's some conditions in which doing more, thinking about more, and I guess that's sort of the irony, right?
我认为在某种程度上这是正确的，但是在某些情况下需要做得更多，思考更多，我想这有点讽刺，对吧？
I interrupted myself, but on purpose, that wouldn't it be wonderful if-
我打断了自己的话，但是是故意的，如果——
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
I love the outro
我喜欢片尾曲
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the amount and ease of sleep was directly proportional to how much we needed to sleep.
睡眠的时间和难易程度与我们需要的睡眠时间成正比。
That's one of the-
这是其中之一——
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
tricks in this whole business.
整个事情的技巧。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Fickle system sometimes.
系统有时变化无常。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Sometimes when we really need sleep, we're dealing with something psychologically challenging, or we need to learn something, we have an exam, that often can be when it's most difficult to sleep.
有时，当我们确实需要睡眠时，我们正在处理一些心理上具有挑战性的事情，或者我们需要学习一些东西，我们有考试，这通常是最难以入睡的时候。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Gets right in the way of what we need most.
满足我们最需要的需求。
Although, coming back to your point, I think physical activity does seem to be one of those things that is very good, and I'm remiss to have not included it in the optimization or the unconventional tips.
不过，回到你的观点，我认为体育活动似乎确实是非常好的事情之一，而且我没有将其纳入优化或非常规技巧中，这是我的疏忽。
There is a very good robust literature now demonstrating that if you are physically active during the day, you can boost the quality of your sleep, particularly your deep sleep at night.
现在有大量可靠的文献表明，如果您白天进行身体活动，就可以提高睡眠质量，尤其是晚上的深度睡眠。
There are some subtle differences in terms of whether you're doing aerobic versus anaerobic, so let's say versus doing a spin bike class for an hour versus lifting resistance, or doing resistance training for an hour or strength training.
有氧运动和无氧运动之间存在一些细微的差异，例如，进行一小时的动感单车课程和举重阻力训练，或者进行一小时的阻力训练或力量训练。
There's subtle differences, but net that overall the big picture view is that when you perform exercise, you drive a response from enhanced sleep, particularly deep sleep at night.
虽然存在细微的差异，但总的来说，总体而言，当您进行锻炼时，您会通过增强睡眠（尤其是晚上的深度睡眠）来做出反应。
And I think many people have had that experience.
我想很多人都有过这样的经历。
You've been out on a long hike, maybe a 10, 12-mile hike, or you've just been working in the garden doing really sort of long landscaping work throughout the day, six or seven hours, and you just come in and you go to bed that night and you just know that this is going to be the most royal night of sleep that you could...
你出去进行了一次长途徒步旅行，也许是一次 10、12 英里的徒步旅行，或者你刚刚在花园里工作了一整天，进行了很长时间的景观美化工作，六七个小时，然后你刚进来，那天晚上上床睡觉，你就知道这将是你能睡得最舒服的一晚……
You know it ahead of time, sort of ear hole to elbow.
你提前知道了，从耳洞到肘部。
And that evidence is now very clear.
这些证据现在非常清楚。
The one interesting thing if you dig into that data, though, you can drive increases in deep sleep by way of exercise.
不过，如果你深入研究这些数据，一件有趣的事情是，你可以通过锻炼来增加深度睡眠。
It does seem to come at a little bit of cost to REM sleep.
这似乎确实会损害快速眼动睡眠。
Exercise may throttle back some of your REM sleep.
锻炼可能会缩短您的一些快速眼动睡眠。
Now, don't fear that.
现在，不要害怕。
It may just simply be that every night, and we know this, my sleep and my stages of sleep are going to be much different to yours in how they are structured and how they play out.
可能只是每天晚上，我们知道这一点，我的睡眠和我的睡眠阶段在结构和表现上都会与你的有很大不同。
But even within me, the same individual, Matt, my sleep stages vary from one night to the next, to the next.
但即使在我体内，同一个人，马特，我的睡眠阶段从一个晚上到下一个晚上都是不同的。
Some of that is idiosyncratic.
其中一些是特殊的。
Others reasons depend on what I've been doing during the day.
其他原因取决于我白天做了什么。
And so it may be that we don't need to get concerned about that modest reduction in REM due to exercise-enhanced non-REM, because it's simply that when you've gone through that form of activity as a human being during the day, what you need is that type of sleep more so than perhaps REM sleep.
因此，我们可能不需要担心由于运动增强的非快速眼动睡眠而引起的快速眼动睡眠的适度减少，因为这只是当你在白天经历了这种形式的活动时，你更需要的是这种类型的睡眠，而不是快速眼动睡眠。
And therefore, the next night, things calibrate back down.
因此，第二天晚上，事情就会恢复正常。
Let's say I wasn't as active, I just sort of went to work during the day, and I'm back to baseline again.
假设我不那么活跃，我只是白天去工作，然后我又回到了基线。
So I don't get too concerned about that, but I just want to bring it up.
所以我不太关心这个，但我只是想提出来。
It's there in the literature.
文献中有记载。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I think it's a very interesting point, and one just has to trust that nature knows best in modifying the percentage of different sleep stages according to our daytime activity.
是的，我认为这是一个非常有趣的观点，人们只需要相信大自然最了解根据我们白天的活动修改不同睡眠阶段的百分比。
Again, highlighting the key relationship.
再次强调关键关系。
I mean, the closely tethered relationship between daytime activity and sleep, and vice versa.
我的意思是，白天活动和睡眠之间密切相关，反之亦然。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Correct.
正确。
Yeah, and it's a reciprocal loop because what we found is that exercise during the day can enhance sleep at night.
是的，这是一个相互循环，因为我们发现白天锻炼可以增强晚上的睡眠。
But also what we found is that sleep at night enhances your athletic performance the following day, and I'm not just talking about motor skill memory upstairs in the brain.
但我们还发现，晚上的睡眠可以提高你第二天的运动表现，而且我所说的不仅仅是大脑中的运动技能记忆。
I'm talking about physical activity in the body.
我说的是身体的身体活动。
And if you limit sleep to, let's say, less than six hours, the data demonstrates that your peak muscle performance is decreased, your peak vertical jump height decreases, your time to exhaustion decreases.
如果你将睡眠时间限制在（比如说）少于六个小时，数据表明你的峰值肌肉性能会下降，你的垂直跳跃高度会降低，你的力竭时间也会缩短。
In some studies, it was up to 30%.
在一些研究中，这一比例高达 30%。
So if you're training for a 10K marathon, but you don't get enough sleep the night before, you're done by 7:00.
因此，如果您正在为 10K 马拉松进行训练，但前一天晚上睡眠不足，那么您将在 7:00 之前完成训练。
We also know that it decreases, perhaps more than almost any of those, and it's striking, the brain's motivation to exercise at all.
我们还知道，它会降低大脑锻炼的动力，甚至可能比几乎所有这些降低的幅度都要大，而且令人震惊。
So in fact, many people may be able to get close to their peak muscle strength when they are underslept.
所以事实上，很多人在睡眠不足的情况下，或许能够接近峰值肌力。
Chances are they're probably never going to get the chance to express that because their motivation to exercise just drops off, and I think many people will resonate that you had a bad night of sleep, I just don't want to go to the gym the next day.
他们很可能永远不会有机会表达这一点，因为他们锻炼的动力就会下降，我想很多人都会觉得你昨晚睡得很糟糕，我只是不想第二天去健身房。
The final part of that is injury risk.
最后一部分是受伤风险。
There is a significantly elevated injury risk.
受伤风险显着升高。
And if you ask most athletes, "Okay, what am I particularly concerned about?
如果你问大多数运动员，“好吧，我特别关心什么？
Is it my performance or if I had some kind of injury that knocks me out for the rest of the season?" And so I've had the fortunate chance to work with many professional teams of different kinds, and gradually they are realizing what I've sort of long said, and it's a crass statement, but I think sleep is probably the greatest legal performance-enhancing drug that most athletes are not abusing enough.
是我的表现还是我受了某种伤病影响了我整个赛季的表现？”因此，我有幸与许多不同类型的职业团队合作，他们逐渐意识到我长期以来所说的，这是一个粗俗的说法，但我认为睡眠可能是大多数运动员没有充分滥用的最合法的提高表现的药物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I could not agree more.
我完全同意。
I feel like every time I say sleep is the bedrock of mental health, physical health, and performance, it's sometimes perceived as just kind of like, "Oh, yeah, sleep.
我觉得每次我说睡眠是心理健康、身体健康和表现的基石时，有时人们都会认为，“哦，是的，睡眠。
We need to sleep." But there's no question that the positive effects of getting Excellent sleep on a consistent basis far outweigh and perform any kind of supplement or even performance-enhancing drug.
我们需要睡觉。”但毫无疑问，持续获得优质睡眠的积极效果远远超过任何一种补充剂，甚至是提高成绩的药物。
In fact, most supplements and performance-enhancing drugs that can indeed improve performance of various kinds seem to only function, or function best, certainly, on a backdrop of excellent sleep.
事实上，大多数确实可以改善各种表现的补充剂和表现增强药物似乎只有在良好的睡眠背景下才能发挥作用，或者说效果最好。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
And I should say that I think you've done a brilliant job of being very explicit about the fact that you need to get all of the basics in place, and then it's great to think about fine-tweaking with optimization of things like supplementation and all of these other things.
我应该说，我认为你做得非常出色，非常明确地表明你需要将所有基础知识落实到位，然后考虑通过优化补充和所有其他事情等进行微调，这是很棒的。
And I think sometimes that message has been maybe a little bit more mixed in the social media environment, that we often don't think about the basics, and we go straight to supplementation, where you would say, gosh, there's actually a log order of magnitude benefit that's on the table if only you were to do some of the basic things that your grandmother would probably tell you.
我认为有时这种信息在社交媒体环境中可能更加复杂，我们经常不考虑基础知识，我们直接进行补充，你会说，天哪，只要你做一些你祖母可能会告诉你的基本事情，实际上就有一个对数数量级的好处。
Eat right, get your stress sorted out, do some physical activity, and make sure that you get some sleep.
正确饮食，缓解压力，进行一些体育活动，并确保充足的睡眠。
Do those things and you're very far along.
做到这些，你就已经走得很远了。
Now there's more opportunity on the table for fine-tuning, as you've elegantly discussed.
正如您优雅地讨论的那样，现在有更多的机会进行微调。
But I think I just want to acknowledge that I think you've done a really great job of being balanced in that message.
但我想我只是想承认，我认为你在平衡这一信息方面做得非常出色。
And I hope people in the general sphere can appreciate how hard that is to do.
我希望广大人士能够认识到做到这一点有多么困难。
It's not an easy thing when you are talking about supplementation, because at first it sounds as though, gosh, all of the speak, and you describe great data, means that it is the holy grail of enhanced human beings.
当你谈论补充时，这并不是一件容易的事情，因为乍一听，天哪，所有这些话，你描述的伟大数据，意味着它是增强人类的圣杯。
But you're always careful to say this after the foundation.
但在打完基础之后，你总是很小心地说这句话。
And I can give a very good example with sleep.
我可以举一个关于睡眠的很好的例子。
Let's say that you're trying to manage your weight and lose weight, and you're dieting, but you're not getting sufficient sleep.
假设您正在努力控制体重并减肥，并且正在节食，但睡眠不足。
What we've discovered is that, yes, you will lose weight when you're dieting, even though you're not getting enough sleep.
我们发现，是的，节食时即使睡眠不足，体重也会减轻。
The problem is that almost 60% of the weight that you lose will come from lean muscle mass and not fat.
问题是你减掉的体重中近 60% 来自瘦肌肉而不是脂肪。
In other words, when you are underslept and dieting, you keep what you're trying to lose, which is the fat, and you lose what you wish to keep, which is the muscle.
换句话说，当你睡眠不足和节食时，你会保留你想要减掉的东西，即脂肪，同时也会失去你想要保留的东西，即肌肉。
So your body does something very interesting in its removal of different types of energy stores in your body when you are not slept.
因此，当您不睡觉时，您的身体会做一些非常有趣的事情，清除体内储存的不同类型的能量。
It becomes very stingy with fat, and it will not give it up when you are sleep-deprived, which is very interesting.
它对脂肪变得非常吝啬，当你睡眠不足时它也不会放弃，这很有趣。
Why would that be, by the way?
顺便问一下，为什么会这样呢？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Muscle's such a metabolically demanding tissue.
肌肉是一种代谢要求很高的组织。
By not sleeping well, you're sending signals that there really isn't the capacity to take care of what you already have, much less increase the size of the engine.
如果睡眠不好，你就会发出信号，表明你确实没有能力照顾你已经拥有的东西，更不用说增加引擎的尺寸了。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
That's exactly right.
完全正确。
And then think about fat, which is, in terms of its energy unit benefit, it has at least perhaps twice the caloric value that protein does.
然后想想脂肪，就其能量单位效益而言，它的热量值至少是蛋白质的两倍。
So if you are underslept, that is a warning sign to any evolutionary species past that things are dire.
因此，如果你睡眠不足，这对过去的任何进化物种来说都是一个警告信号，表明事情很可怕。
So whatever I'm going to do, this is break glass in case of emergency situation.
所以无论我要做什么，这都是在紧急情况下打破玻璃。
And if you're not getting enough calories, I'm going to hold onto the thing that has the highest caloric value right until the end, which is fat, and I'm going to give away the stuff that doesn't have as much caloric benefit because I am in a caloric deficit right now.
如果你没有摄入足够的卡路里，我会一直保留热量值最高的东西，即脂肪，直到最后，我会放弃那些没有那么多热量好处的东西，因为我现在处于热量赤字状态。
Now, of course, that's strange because the person trying to lose weight perhaps is rightfully trying to lose weight based on them being somewhat overweight.
当然，这很奇怪，因为试图减肥的人可能是因为自己有些超重而正确地尝试减肥。
But that's the biology that we think explains why that's the case.
但我们认为这就是生物学原理，可以解释为什么会出现这种情况。
It's not just a strange phenomenon.
这不仅仅是一个奇怪的现象。
It's a very logical one.
这是一个非常合乎逻辑的问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it is a logical one.
是的，这是合乎逻辑的。
And thanks for the support around my constant voicing and revoicing of the pillars of health that you mentioned, exercise.
感谢您对我不断表达和重申您提到的健康支柱——锻炼的支持。
Well, I put it in the order of sleep as the most important pillar, and then one could argue about the order of the others, but in no specific order.
嗯，我把睡眠的顺序作为最重要的支柱，然后大家可以争论其他的顺序，但没有具体的顺序。
Light, which dovetails with sleep.
光，与睡眠相吻合。
But nutrition, movement, exercise, social connection, stress modulation, these kinds of things.
但是营养、运动、锻炼、社交、压力调节等等。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah, the speed with which that comes out of your mouth tells you how many times you've said it, and you've said it over and over.
是的，这句话从你嘴里说出来的速度告诉你你已经说了多少次，而且你已经说了一遍又一遍。
It's wonderful.
太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, well, thank you.
哦，好的，谢谢你。
It's interesting because they are the basics, but they are basics that need to be re-upped every 24 hours, and so often I feel like we all need to be reminded every 24 hours.
这很有趣，因为它们是基础知识，但它们是需要每 24 小时重新更新的基础知识，所以我经常觉得我们都需要每 24 小时提醒一次。
One of the most common questions I get is what should I take?
我最常见的问题之一是我应该采取什么措施？
If I had a dollar for every time somebody said, "What should I take?" I'd keep podcasting, but I'd be a gazillionaire.
如果每次有人问“我该拿什么？”时我就能得到一美元。我会继续做播客，但我会成为亿万富翁。
But my response is always the same, which is, how's your sleep?
但我的回答总是一样的，那就是，你睡得怎么样？
The first question I say is how's your sleep?
我说的第一个问题是你的睡眠怎么样？
And then they think I'm going to suggest a sleep supplement, but I want to know whether or not people are sleeping well on a consistent basis, and that opens up a whole set of discussions, and then inevitably we forget about the what one should take conversation.
然后他们认为我会建议一种睡眠补充剂，但我想知道人们是否持续睡眠良好，这引发了一整套讨论，然后我们不可避免地忘记了应该讨论什么。
I think it's the rare individual who's sleeping very well every night of their life.
我认为一生中每晚都睡得很好的人是很少见的。
There are such individuals, and then the what should I take conversation makes sense in a certain context.
确实有这样的人，那么“我应该采取什么”的对话在特定的背景下就有意义了。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's something I wanted to just return to for a moment before I move on to the next topic, which is you mentioned all the significant deficits that occur in motor performance when one has not slept that well the night before.
在进入下一个主题之前，我想先回顾一下，您提到了当一个人前一天晚上睡得不好时，运动表现会出现所有严重缺陷。
Grip strength, vertical jump, motivation, et cetera.
握力、垂直弹跳、动力等等。
We're not here to deliver anything except the facts to people at Wade & Weale.
除了向 Wade & Weale 的员工提供事实之外，我们不会提供任何其他信息。
We're certainly not here to soften the blow of reality.
我们来这里当然不是为了减轻现实的打击。
But there are a good number of people that will have, say, a physical performance, like a race.
但有很多人会进行身体表演，比如比赛。
They're training for a half marathon, or they have a big game the next day, or they have some performance event the next day.
他们正在训练半程马拉松，或者第二天有一场大型比赛，或者第二天有一些表演活动。
And by virtue of butterflies, anxiety, travel ...
并凭借蝴蝶、焦虑、旅行……
an alarm going off in a hotel in the middle of the night, I've had that experience, et cetera, that they may not get the best night's sleep the night before.
半夜酒店的闹钟响起，我有过这样的经历，等等，他们可能无法在前一天晚上获得最好的睡眠。
And obviously, there are going to be ramifications of that.
显然，这将会产生影响。
But I'm reminded of a study that was done by Ali Khrom's lab at Stanford, where people wear sleep trackers, and they actually knew how much and how well or poorly they slept the night before.
但我想起斯坦福大学 Ali Khrom 实验室进行的一项研究，人们佩戴睡眠追踪器，他们实际上知道前一天晚上睡了多少以及睡得好坏。
I don't know how detailed the analysis was, but it was Stanford Sleep Center, so presumably it was reasonably detailed.
我不知道分析有多详细，但这是斯坦福睡眠中心，所以想必分析得相当详细。
And then the next day, with that knowledge in hand, either lied to the people or told them the truth about how well they had slept the night before or poorly.
然后第二天，掌握了这些知识后，要么对人们撒谎，要么告诉他们前一天晚上睡得好不好的真相。
For instance, if someone had got eight hours of great sleep the night before, they might have told them, "Hey, you got eight hours of great sleep the night before." Or they might've been in a condition where they said, "Hey, you know what?
例如，如果有人前一天晚上睡了八个小时，他们可能会告诉他们，“嘿，你前一天晚上睡了八个小时。”或者他们可能会说：“嘿，你知道吗？
Your sleep last night wasn't that great."
你昨晚睡得不太好。”
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or if somebody got five hours of sleep, they might have said, "Hey, you got eight hours of great sleep." So there was a lot of lying involved in this study.
或者，如果有人睡了五个小时，他们可能会说，“嘿，你睡了八个小时，睡得很好。”所以这项研究中有很多谎言。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But basically what they observed is that performance in, I think it was motor skill performance, but it might have been cognitive, but that's not the issue here.
但基本上他们观察到的是表现，我认为这是运动技能表现，但它可能是认知方面的，但这不是这里的问题。
The point is that much of our performance can be dependent on our subjective understanding of how well or poorly we slept the night before.
关键是，我们的表现很大程度上取决于我们对前一天晚上睡眠质量的主观理解。
In other words, there can be belief effects.
换句话说，可能存在信念效应。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So this is one of the concerns about placing too much emphasis on the one poor night's sleep.
因此，这是过分强调一晚睡眠质量不佳的担忧之一。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And obviously, people should be mindful of injury, as you pointed out, but if someone has a big race or a big event the next day and they just don't sleep well-
显然，正如你所指出的，人们应该注意受伤，但如果有人第二天要参加一场大型比赛或大型活动，而他们只是睡不好——
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I think that we have to be careful that the mere knowledge that they're not going to perform as well, because that's what the data say, can potentially be offset by the Ali Khrom study, which is if they believe like, hey, a lot of it is about what they believe about their own sleep to be, which just tells you that performance can, and motivation presumably-
我认为我们必须小心，仅仅知道他们不会表现得很好，因为数据就是这样，可能会被 Ali Khrom 研究所抵消，如果他们相信，嘿，其中很大一部分是关于他们对自己睡眠的看法，这只是告诉你表现可以，而动机大概是-
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah, exactly
是的，正是如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
can override some of the physiology.
可以凌驾于某些生理学之上。
And again, you can't rescue what you can't rescue.
再说一次，你无法拯救你无法拯救的东西。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
No, and I think it's a very good point because it comes back to our discussion about the placebo effect in some ways, which is this is mind over matter.
不，我认为这是一个非常好的观点，因为它在某种程度上回到了我们对安慰剂效应的讨论，即这是精神高于物质。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
And that your biological state.
那就是你的生物状态。
So one of the things I do when I'm working with professional athletes and we're doing sleep tracking, often I'm working with a coach, and I will say during that period where they're on the road, and now they've got seven games to play in the playoffs.
因此，当我与职业运动员一起工作并且进行睡眠追踪时，我所做的一件事是，我经常与教练一起工作，我会说在那段时间他们在路上，现在他们有七场季后赛要打。
Let's keep tracking their sleep, and let's you and I make sure that we're trying to optimize this athlete because they've given consent, they want to have their sleep as good as possible, and they want us to help them do that.
让我们继续跟踪他们的睡眠，让你和我确保我们正在努力优化这位运动员，因为他们已经同意，他们希望拥有尽可能好的睡眠，他们希望我们帮助他们做到这一点。
But I say at that point, we will simply look at the data night after night, and then we can describe the data that they've been having at the end of the week after they've finished the series.
但我说，在这一点上，我们将简单地夜复一夜地查看数据，然后我们可以描述他们在完成该系列后的周末所获得的数据。
Because for exactly that reason, if you start giving them feedback, we don't want to erode confidence.
因为正是出于这个原因，如果您开始向他们提供反馈，我们不想削弱信心。
And with sleep trackers, there is such a thing called orthosomnia, and it's now a described situation.
对于睡眠追踪器来说，有一种叫做正交睡眠的现象，现在它已经成为一种描述的情况。
Orthosomnia, in medicine, words mean something.
正交睡眠，在医学上，言语是有一定意义的。
So ortho, people will be familiar with in medicine, orthopedics, orthodontics.
那么正畸，人们在医学、骨科、正畸学中就会很熟悉。
It's about getting things straight.
这是为了把事情搞清楚。
Orthopedics, getting your bone straight.
骨科，让你的骨头变直。
Orthodontics, getting your teeth straight.
正畸，让牙齿整齐。
Orthosomnia is about trying to get your sleep straight and being so worried about that, that it compromises your sleep.
正交睡眠症是指试图让你的睡眠正常，但对此过于担心，以至于影响了你的睡眠。
Now, we don't know exactly what proportion of people, it may be less than 10%, who use sleep trackers.
现在，我们还不知道使用睡眠追踪器的人的具体比例，可能不到 10%。
But I would say that to anyone listening, if you are tracking your sleep with a tracker and you're experiencing this sleep-related anxiety, do one of two things.
但我想说的是，如果你正在用追踪器追踪你的睡眠，并且你正在经历这种与睡眠相关的焦虑，请做以下两件事之一。
First, take my recommendation, which is that only on, let's say, a Sunday afternoon, do you open up the app and check your data, so that way you can still be measuring your sleep, which is very helpful.
首先，接受我的建议，即只有在周日下午，您才打开应用程序并检查您的数据，这样您仍然可以测量您的睡眠，这非常有帮助。
But you don't have to get the anxiety morning after morning.
但你不必日复一日地感到焦虑。
The other is that if you are truly starting to get a very negative experience, take it off, put it in the drawer, and just get your sleep confidence back using some of the suggestions that we had in the optimization episode, and only then return to using that tracker.
另一个是，如果您确实开始获得非常负面的体验，请将其取下，放入抽屉中，然后使用我们在优化过程中提出的一些建议来恢复您的睡眠信心，然后才返回使用该跟踪器。
What's also interesting, it relates to what you were saying about beliefs and intention.
同样有趣的是，它与你所说的信念和意图有关。
They did another great study where they looked at this cortisol rise in the morning that you and I have discussed on this series many times, which starts to happen sort of just before you're waking up and really rises into the morning.
他们做了另一项伟大的研究，他们观察了早上皮质醇的升高，你和我在这个系列中已经讨论过很多次，这种情况开始发生在你醒来之前，并真正上升到早上。
What they did was they brought participants into the laboratory, and they had them go to sleep at around 11:00 at night.
他们所做的就是将参与者带入实验室，并让他们在晚上 11:00 左右入睡。
And then in one group, they said, "We're going to wake you up at 7:00 AM in the morning." The other group, they said, "We're going to wake you up at 5:00 AM in the morning." Well, it turns out that both of those groups were woken up at 7:00 AM.
然后在一组中，他们说：“我们将在早上 7:00 叫醒你。”另一组人说：“我们将在早上 5:00 叫醒你。”事实证明，这两组人都在上午 7:00 被叫醒。
But what was bizarre is that in the group that was told they were going to wake up at 5:00 AM, their cortisol release started to rise around 5:00 AM.
但奇怪的是，在被告知要在凌晨 5:00 起床的小组中，他们的皮质醇释放量在凌晨 5:00 左右开始上升。
In other words, just the knowledge before sleep that you're going to be woken up at 5:00 AM changed the non-conscious brain's release of a stock standard prototypical hormonal release mechanism.
换句话说，只要在睡觉前知道您将在凌晨 5:00 醒来，就会改变无意识大脑释放标准原型荷尔蒙释放机制的方式。
And that comes right back to this idea that we were speaking about with time, that consciously we have lost time perception when we're sleeping, but non-consciously, it seems as though the brain is still knowing what's going on because for that early morning flight, you wake up two minutes before your alarm.
这又回到了我们谈论时间的想法，当我们睡觉时，我们有意识地失去了时间感知，但无意识地，大脑似乎仍然知道发生了什么，因为在清晨的航班上，你会在闹钟前两分钟醒来。
Well, perhaps the reason why is that you've learned that you have to wake up at that time, and you've changed your cortisol response, which would normally, because you don't wake up for an early morning flight every day, would normally not come for two hours, but it's arriving earlier It just blew me away.
好吧，也许原因是你已经知道你必须在那个时间醒来，并且你已经改变了你的皮质醇反应，这通常会，因为你每天不会醒来赶早班飞机，通常不会来两个小时，但它来得更早，这让我大吃一惊。
I couldn't believe that the brain, non-consciously, could change a hormonal profile simply based on me telling you what time you were going to wake up the next morning.
我不敢相信，大脑会无意识地仅仅根据我告诉你第二天早上几点起床就改变荷尔蒙分布。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Spectacular.
壮观。
And really, as you pointed out, really speaks to the fact that during sleep, there is a lot of processing going on, subconscious, unconscious cognitive processing.
事实上，正如你所指出的，这确实说明了这样一个事实：在睡眠期间，有很多处理正在进行，潜意识、无意识的认知处理。
And we know this in the form of dreams, a topic that we'll talk about in a subsequent episode of this series.
我们以梦的形式了解这一点，我们将在本系列的后续剧集中讨论这个主题。
But okay, so you've shared with us the clear value of getting the best possible night's sleep before what I call a bout of learning.
不过，好吧，您已经与我们分享了在我所说的学习之前获得尽可能好的夜间睡眠的明确价值。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You also shared with us the clear value of getting sleep after being exposed to some new information, AKA a bout of learning, and you've explained to us the key relationship between sleep and motor learning, learning of new motor skills.
您还与我们分享了在接触一些新信息后睡眠的明显价值，也就是一次学习，并且您向我们解释了睡眠与运动学习、新运动技能学习之间的关键关系。
What are some other aspects of brain and cognition for which sleep exerts a significant positive effect?
睡眠对大脑和认知的哪些其他方面具有显着的积极影响？
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
So those, for a while, were the first two things that we really thought sleep was doing for learning and memory, sleep before learning to make those memories, sleep after learning to consolidate them and hit the save button.
因此，有一段时间，我们真正认为睡眠对学习和记忆有帮助的前两件事是，在学习形成这些记忆之前睡觉，在学习巩固记忆并点击保存按钮之后睡觉。
But then data started to emerge, and we started to look at this too, that sleep was much more intelligent than we ever imagined when it comes to information processing.
但后来数据开始出现，我们也开始关注这一点，在信息处理方面，睡眠比我们想象的要聪明得多。
Sleep doesn't simply just strengthen individual memories like isolate islands unconnected.
睡眠不仅仅像孤立的孤岛一样增强个人记忆。
Sleep after learning is almost a form of informational alchemy, that sleep will take these new memories, and it will start to interconnect them and cross-link them with the new information that you've learned, because usually, information that you're learning during the day is interconnected, and sleep was building those connections between new memories.
学习后的睡眠几乎是信息炼金术的一种形式，睡眠会吸收这些新的记忆，并开始将它们互连起来，并将它们与你学到的新信息交叉链接，因为通常情况下，你白天学习的信息是相互关联的，而睡眠正在新记忆之间建立这些联系。
But also, it was integrating them into the back catalog of all of your past autobiographical memory systems so that you woke up the next day, and you had a revised mind-wide web of associations.
而且，它还将它们整合到你过去所有自传体记忆系统的后台目录中，这样你第二天醒来，你就会拥有一个经过修改的全脑联想网络。
And a good example of this, we did a study, gosh, very early on, where we asked the question, which stage of sleep then is important for this type of, I almost think of it as a very strange analogy, but almost like group therapy for memories.
一个很好的例子，我们很早就做了一项研究，天哪，我们提出了一个问题，哪个阶段的睡眠对于这种类型很重要，我几乎认为这是一个非常奇怪的类比，但几乎就像记忆的团体治疗一样。
That at the end of the day, every new memory gets a name badge, and sleep gathers in all of these memories into the same room, and it forces you, however, to speak to the people not at the front of the room that you think you've got the most obvious connection with.
一天结束时，每一个新的记忆都会有一个名牌，而睡眠会将所有这些记忆聚集到同一个房间里，然而，它迫使你与不在房间前面的人交谈，而你认为与你有最明显的联系。
It forces you to speak to the people all the way at the back of the room that you don't think you've got really any connection with at all.
它迫使你一直与房间后面的人们交谈，而你认为自己与这些人根本没有任何联系。
But it turns out that you do, because sleep doesn't simply build associations and connections.
但事实证明你确实如此，因为睡眠不仅仅是建立关联和联系。
It does.
确实如此。
It seems to bias the brain towards building the most non-obvious distant associations.
它似乎使大脑偏向于建立最不明显的远距离关联。
It's almost like a Google search gone wrong that during the waking day, our memories, our brains are still associative in how they can build links and connections.
这几乎就像谷歌搜索出了问题一样，在清醒的日子里，我们的记忆、我们的大脑仍然在如何建立链接和联系方面具有联想能力。
That's like page one of the Google search.
这就像谷歌搜索的第一页。
So let's say that I type in Andrew Huberman, and the first page I get, the first hit is the Huberman Lab website.
假设我输入 Andrew Huberman，我看到的第一个页面是 Huberman 实验室网站。
Great.
太棒了。
But if I go to page 20, it's about a field hockey game in Utah and I think, "Hang on a second.
但如果我翻到第 20 页，内容是关于犹他州的一场曲棍球比赛，我想，“等一下。
What's Andrew doing?"
安德鲁在做什么？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe you didn't know.
也许你不知道。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
But yeah, I know exactly.
但是，是的，我确切地知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't think I've ever played field hockey.
我想我从来没有打过曲棍球。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Little did I know.
我对此一无所知。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've been to Utah.
我去过犹他州。
It's a beautiful state.
这是一个美丽的状态。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Oh, it's beautiful.
哦，很漂亮。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
But if I look, I can actually see that there is a very distant, non-obvious association.
但如果我看的话，我实际上可以看到存在着一种非常遥远的、不明显的关联。
I can understand why it's there.
我能理解为什么它在那里。
That's what sleep seems to be over-indexing for in this associational framework.
这就是睡眠在这个关联框架中似乎被过度索引的原因。
So then we ask, well, what is it about sleep?
那么我们就会问，睡眠到底是怎么回事？
So we had participants perform anagram-solving tasks, and anagrams are simply these words that the letters are all jumbled up, and you have to kind of stare at them or work through them, and all of a sudden, you start to see which word it really is, because at first, it's all jumbled up, and it makes no sense.
所以我们让参与者执行字谜解决任务，而字谜就是这些字母都打乱的单词，你必须盯着它们或解决它们，突然之间，你开始看到它到底是哪个单词，因为一开始，它都是乱七八糟的，而且毫无意义。
But we didn't teach them it before sleep and after sleep.
但我们没有教他们睡前和睡后。
We did something different.
我们做了一些不同的事情。
We woke them up out of different stages of sleep.
我们将他们从不同的睡眠阶段叫醒。
Why?
为什么？
Well, when you come out of different stages of sleep, there is still some degree of the biology of that sleep state that lingers in your brain, almost like vapors coming off the stage of sleep that you've just exited, and it only lasts for about two minutes or so.
嗯，当你从不同的睡眠阶段醒来时，该睡眠状态的生物学特征仍然在你的大脑中徘徊，就像你刚刚退出的睡眠阶段的蒸汽一样，它只持续大约两分钟左右。
But what was nice is that this anagram test you could do within two minutes.
但令人高兴的是，这个字谜测试你可以在两分钟内完成。
So we would wake them up out of different stages of sleep, and then we'd have them quickly do these anagrams.
所以我们会把他们从不同的睡眠阶段叫醒，然后让他们快速做这些字谜。
And I told you that for fact-based memory, that sleep after learning was important to strengthen the individual memories, and it was particularly non-rapid eye movement sleep that was doing that strengthening of the individual facts.
我告诉过你，对于基于事实的记忆，学习后的睡眠对于加强个人记忆非常重要，特别是非快速眼动睡眠可以加强个人事实。
Now what we found is that the association creativity benefit of sleep was very different.
现在我们发现睡眠对创造力的关联益处是非常不同的。
That cross-linking benefit came by way, it seemed, of REM sleep.
这种交联的好处似乎是通过快速眼动睡眠来实现的。
Because when we woke them up out of REM sleep compared to non-REM sleep, they were 30% more capable of solving these anagrams.
因为当我们将他们从快速眼动睡眠中唤醒时，与非快速眼动睡眠相比，他们解决这些字谜的能力提高了 30%。
And when we looked at how they were solving them, it was interesting.
当我们看到他们如何解决这些问题时，这很有趣。
Coming out of non-REM sleep, it was very sort of analogical.
从非快速眼动睡眠中醒来，这非常类似。
It was very what we think of as very sort of convergent, very focused way of trying to logically solve the problem.
我们认为这是一种非常集中、非常集中的尝试逻辑解决问题的方式。
But with REM sleep, it was much more divergent fluid intelligence.
但对于快速眼动睡眠，流体智力的差异就大得多。
It was almost they were just standing back and waiting for it, and then boop, it just popped out in front of them.
他们几乎只是站在后面等待它，然后噗，它就突然出现在他们面前。
All the letters kind of reorganized and clicked into place.
所有的字母都被重新组织并卡入到位。
And then there was a subsequent study that did something different.
随后的一项研究做了不同的事情。
It looked specifically at creative insight, and it was a lovely study.
它专门关注创造性洞察力，这是一项有趣的研究。
And they performed something called the numeric number reduction test, which is one of those tests that psychologists love to administer and participants hate to perform.
他们进行了一种叫做“数字减少测试”的测试，这是心理学家喜欢进行但参与者讨厌进行的测试之一。
And here's what happens.
这就是发生的事情。
You're shown a whole string of numbers, and you are given a certain set of rules, and you have to work through those number problems and come out with a final end answer.
你会看到一整串数字，并且有一套特定的规则，你必须解决这些数字问题并得出最终的答案。
And you're told that you're going to be judged simply on how many correct final end answers that you get.
并且你被告知，你将仅根据你得到多少正确的最终答案来进行评判。
And you work through hundreds of these problems.
你会解决数百个这样的问题。
What they don't tell you in the instructions, however, is that there is a hidden rule here embedded in that all of those sequences, all of the sequences are different that you have to solve, but there is one common rule that binds them all together, which is that the second part, sort of the second component of the solution, so you're working through, let's say it's a 10-digit string number, and you have to apply these rules to the first number, then carry it through to the second number, and then to the third number.
然而，他们在说明中没有告诉您的是，这里嵌入了一条隐藏规则，即所有这些序列都不同，您必须解决这些序列，但有一个共同规则将它们全部绑定在一起，即第二部分，即解决方案的第二个组成部分，所以您正在解决，假设它是一个 10 位字符串数字，您必须将这些规则应用于第一个数字，然后将其传递到第二个数字，然后到第三个数字。
And the second partial number that you produce in this string of calculations to get to the final end answer, it turns out to be always the same end answer.
在这串计算中产生的第二个部分数字以获得最终的最终答案，结果总是相同的最终答案。
So in other words, if you clue on to this hidden rule, all you have to do is work up to the first, let's say, 10% of every problem.
换句话说，如果你掌握了这个隐藏规则，你所要做的就是解决第一个问题，比如说每个问题的 10%。
You can just shortcut the rest of it, and you just write down the number because you are told that the only thing we're going to judge you on is the end answer.
你可以简化其余部分，然后写下数字，因为你被告知我们唯一要评判你的就是最终答案。
So they trained participants on these sort of numeric number reduction trials, and then they brought them back after 12 hours of being awake, and no one seemed to have that light bulb moment of the sort of, "Okay, I get it." But then they did the same thing.
因此，他们对参与者进行了此类数字减少试验的培训，然后在他们清醒 12 小时后将他们带回来，似乎没有人有那种灵光乍现的时刻，“好吧，我明白了。”但后来他们做了同样的事情。
They trained them, but now they trained them in the evening.
他们训练他们，但现在他们在晚上训练他们。
They gave them a full eight hours of sleep.
他们给了他们整整八个小时的睡眠。
They came back the next morning, and there was a threefold increase in creative insight problem-solving ability.
第二天早上他们回来后，创造性洞察力和解决问题的能力提高了三倍。
In other words, people were coming back with that aha moment of the gig is up, I've got it, I know what you guys are trying to do, and I'm going to show you.
换句话说，人们回来时会感到演出结束了，我明白了，我知道你们想做什么，我会向你们展示。
Then they did something clever.
然后他们做了一些聪明的事情。
They said, back to our question of motor skill learning, well, is that really sleep or is it just circadian?
他们说，回到我们运动技能学习的问题，这真的是睡眠还是只是昼夜节律？
That it's just something about going through the night that gives you this kind of doo lally creative benefit.
只有熬夜才能给你带来这种创造性的好处。
So they took another group.
于是他们又拉了一组。
They taught them the information in the evening, and they tested them the next morning, just like the sleep group, but they kept them up all night.
他们在晚上教给他们这些信息，并在第二天早上对他们进行测试，就像睡眠组一样，但他们让他们整晚都睡不着。
So they went through nighttime NERS for that time period, and they showed no benefit in the problem-solving.
因此，他们在那段时间进行了夜间 NERS，但在解决问题方面没有表现出任何好处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, my experience is that sleep deprivation leads to all sorts of ideas about how one is coming up with novel ideas and solutions, all of which completely suck after two good nights sleep.
是的，我的经验是，睡眠不足会导致人们产生各种各样的想法，如何想出新奇的想法和解决方案，所有这些在睡了两个好觉之后就完全糟糕了。
But most of the time, it seems that sleep deprivation, intoxication of any kind, it gives one the impression that you're coming up with novel solutions, but really they're just novel.
但大多数时候，睡眠不足、任何形式的中毒都会给人一种你正在想出新奇解决方案的印象，但实际上它们只是新奇。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
That data is very clear that there was this misnomer that if I sort of go through the night and work sort of through into the morning, I'm just much more creative when I'm sleep-deprived, and it's been tested and it's the opposite.
这些数据非常清楚地表明，存在这样的用词不当：如果我整晚都工作到早上，那么当我睡眠不足时，我就会更有创造力，而且经过测试，结果恰恰相反。
Quite the opposite, in fact.
事实上恰恰相反。
What I also find interesting, though, about this sleep and creativity log, it was always there in the literature that there are innumerable anecdotes of people having sleep-inspired insight.
不过，关于睡眠和创造力日志，我也觉得有趣的是，文献中总是有无数的轶事讲述人们从睡眠中获得灵感的洞察力。
It's almost as though when you wake up the next morning, having had that revised set of web connections in your brain, you can divine solutions to previously impenetrable problems.
就好像当你第二天早上醒来时，大脑中已经有了修改后的网络连接集，你就可以找到以前难以解决的问题的解决方案。
And there's a great example, I think, Dmitri Mendeleev, who at the time was trying to answer one of the most epic questions in human history.
我认为，有一个很好的例子，德米特里·门捷列夫（Dmitri Mendeleev），他当时正试图回答人类历史上最史诗般的问题之一。
How do all of the known elements in the universe fit together in some logical order?
宇宙中所有已知的元素如何以某种逻辑顺序组合在一起？
And he was failing.
但他失败了。
He just could not.
他就是做不到。
And he was so obsessed with this problem, he created playing cards with all of the different elements of the universe and their atomic weights and their electron.
他对这个问题非常着迷，他用宇宙中所有不同的元素及其原子量和电子制作了扑克牌。
And he would go on these long train rides, and he would just shuffle the cards, and he would deal the cards on the table because he was just desperate to try to see what the pattern was.
他会继续乘坐长途火车，他只是洗牌，他会发桌上的牌，因为他只是不顾一切地想看看模式是什么。
He was shuffling and shuffling and shuffling.
他拖着脚步、拖着脚步、拖着脚步。
And then the story goes, and it's written that one night he fell asleep and he dreamt, and he could start to see all of the cards just dancing around in front of his eyes, and then they snap together in this logical grid based on the atomic weight and the different electron properties.
然后故事就这样开始了，据说有一天晚上他睡着了，他做了一个梦，他开始看到所有的卡片在他眼前跳舞，然后它们根据原子量和不同的电子特性在这个逻辑网格中组合在一起。
And he wrote it down on the back of an envelope, which still exists to this date.
他把这句话写在一个信封的背面，至今该信封仍然存在。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And you can see it.
你可以看到它。
And that was the initial basis for what we call the periodic table of elements.
这就是我们所说的元素周期表的最初基础。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing.
太棒了。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
And it revolutionized human history.
它彻底改变了人类历史。
And it's not just in science.
这不仅仅是在科学领域。
There's great scientific people who have won Nobel Prizes for understanding neural transmission, Otto Loewi.
奥托·洛维 (Otto Loewi) 是一位伟大的科学家，他们因理解神经传递而获得了诺贝尔奖。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, and maybe it's worth rattling off a few brief examples because they're so spectacular.
好吧，也许值得列举几个简短的例子，因为它们是如此引人注目。
Einstein was known for taking naps in the middle of the day, multiple times throughout the day in order to come up with novel solutions.
爱因斯坦因在中午小睡而闻名，一天中会多次小睡，以便想出新颖的解决方案。
I think the discovery of some of the organic-
我认为一些有机物的发现
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
The benzene ring?
苯环？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The benzene ring came to, I'm forgetting his name now.
苯环出现了，我现在忘记他的名字了。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
August Kekulé.
奥古斯特·凯库勒。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In a dream.
在梦中。
Thank you.
谢谢。
There are numerous examples of fundamental scientific discoveries, that is creative insights That were anchored to real-world experiments and theory, pure theory as well, that came to people in their dreams.
基础科学发现的例子有很多，即基于现实世界的实验和理论的创造性见解，也有纯粹的理论，这些发现出现在人们的梦想中。
So what's interesting, though, is that there seems to be some sort of hydraulic pressure created by the waking or within wakefulness attempt to figure something out.
有趣的是，清醒时或清醒时试图弄清楚某些事情时似乎会产生某种液压。
So all of these people, to be very clear, didn't just sleep to come up with solutions.
因此，非常清楚的是，所有这些人不仅仅是睡觉来想出解决方案。
They put a lot of hydraulic pressure-
他们施加了很大的液压-
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
feeding a lot of information, thinking about a problem in a structured or unstructured way, taking walks, focusing on their other demands of the day.
提供大量信息，以结构化或非结构化方式思考问题，散步，专注于当天的其他需求。
But then when they went to sleep, clearly that information was still being worked with-
但当他们入睡时，显然这些信息仍在处理中——
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in important ways.
以重要的方式。
And then you were going to mention some examples from the arts, I think.
我想，然后你会提到一些艺术方面的例子。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah, there's some great...
是的，有一些很棒的...
I was born and raised in Liverpool, in England, and of course, famous for The Beatles and for Liverpool Football Club, and Everton as well, but I'm a Liverpool supporter.
我在英国利物浦出生和长大，当然，我以披头士乐队、利物浦足球俱乐部和埃弗顿而闻名，但我是利物浦的支持者。
However, Paul McCartney has gone on record very clearly to say that two songs that were probably some of the most successful songs, "Yesterday" and "Let It Be," both came to him by way of dream-inspired insight.
然而，保罗·麦卡特尼非常明确地表示，《Yesterday》和《Let It Be》这两首歌可能是最成功的歌曲之一，这两首歌都是他通过梦想启发的洞察力获得的。
There's a lovely description, I think, in his biography.
我认为，他的传记中有一个可爱的描述。
He was filming, it was either "Help!" or "A Hard Day's Night" down in London with the rest of The Beatles, and he was staying in a rental in Wimpole Street in London, and he was staying on the third floor.
他正在拍摄，要么是“救命！”或者在伦敦与披头士乐队的其他成员一起进行“艰难的一天之夜”，他住在伦敦温波尔街的一间出租屋里，住在三楼。
And in his bedroom, fortunately, there was a piano on the opposite side of the room.
而在他的卧室里，幸运的是，房间的对面有一架钢琴。
And he describes how he woke up one morning with this beautiful melody by way of it was a string quartet that was playing it, and it was the melody for "Yesterday." And he went straight over to the piano, and he started playing it.
他描述了一天早上他是如何在这首优美的旋律中醒来的，因为这是一个弦乐四重奏在演奏，这就是“昨天”的旋律。他径直走向钢琴，开始弹奏。
And he said it was just so sumptuous, and he couldn't remember where he had heard it.
他说那真是太奢侈了，他不记得他在哪里听到过。
And then after a while, he remembered, "I haven't heard it anywhere before.
过了一会儿，他想起来：“我以前没在任何地方听过。
It came to me by way of sleep." Same thing with "Let It Be." Obviously, Mother Mary comes to me singing songs or singing words of wisdom, let it be.
它是通过睡眠而来的。”与“顺其自然”也是一样。显然，圣母玛利亚向我唱着歌曲或唱着智慧的话语，随它去吧。
And there's often been a suggestion that that has religious overtones in terms of Mother Mary.
经常有人认为，圣母玛利亚带有宗教色彩。
It actually is not.
事实上并非如此。
It's his mother, Mary McCartney .
这是他的母亲，玛丽·麦卡特尼。
And he was having a hard time struggling with the fame of The Beatles at that moment.
那时他正在与披头士乐队的名声作斗争。
And one night he slept, and his mother, Mary, came to him and just said, "Relax.
一天晚上，他睡着了，他的母亲玛丽走过来对他说：“放松点。
It's going to be okay.
一切都会好起来的。
Stay true to yourself.
忠于自己。
Continue doing what you're doing.
继续做你正在做的事情。
Just let it be." And he woke up, and he wrote the song.
就这样吧。”他醒了，他写了这首歌。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love that story.
我喜欢那个故事。
And there's some actionable takeaways here that if I may, I just wanted to mention.
如果可以的话，我只想提一下这里有一些可行的要点。
A previous guest on this episode, in fact, he's been on the podcast twice, is the great Rick Rubin, right?
本集的前一位嘉宾，事实上，他已经参加过两次播客，是伟大的 Rick Rubin，对吧？
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Oh, I've listened to those.
哦，我听过那些。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
One of the most-
最重要的之一——
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Absolute gem
绝对的宝石
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
legendary music producers of all time.
有史以来的传奇音乐制作人。
And the second episode that we did with Rick, he gets heavily into some of his protocols, for lack of a better way to describe them.
在我们与瑞克合作的第二集中，他深入研究了他的一些协议，因为缺乏更好的方式来描述它们。
And one of the things that Rick does is when he wakes up in the morning, he makes it a point to, he takes walks, he gets sunshine, he hydrates, he does all of those things, but to try and make the transition between sleep and wakefulness to be rather gradual.
瑞克所做的一件事就是，当他早上醒来时，他会强调，他散步，他晒太阳，他补充水分，他做了所有这些事情，但试图让睡眠和清醒之间的过渡变得相当渐进。
Almost to allow some of the components of sleep to kind of bleed into the morning and then allow wakefulness to come about.
几乎是让睡眠的某些成分渗透到早晨，然后让我们醒来。
And in his case, he's able to push some of the more linear processing and procedural things to later in the day.
就他而言，他能够将一些更线性的处理和程序性的事情推迟到当天晚些时候。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I've spent a lot of time with Rick.
我和瑞克一起度过了很多时间。
I'm fortunate to be close friends with Rick, and I can tell you that he also spends a fair amount of time sitting or lying down, typically very still with his eyes closed, just thinking or allowing thoughts to emerge as part of his creative process.
我很幸运能与 Rick 成为亲密的朋友，我可以告诉你，他也花了相当多的时间坐着或躺着，通常闭着眼睛一动不动，只是思考或让想法浮现，作为他创作过程的一部分。
Now, he's certainly not the only one to do this, but he's a notable example.
现在，他当然不是唯一一个这样做的人，但他是一个值得注意的例子。
But what's the takeaway here?
但这里的要点是什么？
Should everyone be lying with their eyes closed when they first wake up?
每个人刚醒来的时候都应该闭着眼睛躺着吗？
Perhaps, but there's some potential dos.
也许吧，但也有一些潜在的危险。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I think there's a really strong don't.
但我认为有一个非常强烈的“不”。
If one subscribes to the idea that during sleep, there is substantial reorganization of neural circuitry, AKA learning, but also expansion of creative opportunity, as you've clearly pointed out, and there are data to support that statement, then it stands to reason that upon waking, there's a key opportunity to capture some of that information that is now in your mind that was created the night before.
如果一个人同意这样一种观点，即在睡眠期间，神经回路会发生实质性的重组，也就是学习，而且创造力的机会也会扩大，正如你已经明确指出的那样，并且有数据支持这一说法，那么按理说，在醒来时，有一个关键的机会来捕捉你脑海中前一天晚上创建的一些信息。
But that if you immediately look at your phone, that you eclipse that process with sensory input from somebody else's ideas- ...
但是，如果你立即查看你的手机，你会发现别人的想法的感官输入使这个过程黯然失色——......
and what's going on in the world.
以及世界上正在发生的事情。
And it's not to say that looking at your phone first thing in the morning is a cardinal sin or a violation of any kind of neural circuit requirement.
这并不是说早上第一件事就是看手机是大罪或违反任何神经回路要求。
But I, in an attempt to try and capture some of the learning and creativity that occurs during sleep, have tried for a while now to not look at my phone for at least the first 30 minutes after waking.
但为了尝试捕捉睡眠期间发生的一些学习和创造力，我已经尝试了一段时间，至少在醒来后的前 30 分钟内不看手机。
It's very challenging to do-
这是非常有挑战性的——
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
It is, yeah
是的，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for most everybody.
对于大多数人来说。
But rather to let some of the ideas from sleep percolate up, and I will often go be making a morning cup of tea or something, and then go running to my office to write something down that suddenly springs to mind.
相反，为了让睡眠中的一些想法渗透进来，我经常会去泡一杯早茶什么的，然后跑到我的办公室写下突然想到的东西。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then I'll remember that this was something that came to me in a dream the night before.
然后我就会记得这是前一天晚上我在梦中想到的事情。
None of which as significant as the benzene ring or the periodic table or the kind of works that Rick has produced.
其中没有一个比苯环或元素周期表或瑞克创作的作品更重要。
But I think that we need to be cautious about not short-circuiting these creative insights that no doubt can come to us in sleep.
但我认为我们需要谨慎，不要让这些创造性的见解短路，这些见解无疑可以在睡眠中出现。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
I think it's very well worth just even for your own mental health, firstly, not to just wake up and start your reception of the world, but to do some, as we've mentioned, reflection on what you've just experienced by way of sleeping.
我认为，即使是为了你自己的心理健康，这也是非常值得的，首先，不要只是醒来并开始接受世界，而是要像我们提到的那样，反思你刚刚在睡眠中经历的事情。
And it doesn't necessarily have to be that you're trying to recall your dreams.
而且你不一定要努力回忆你的梦。
Just sit with whatever your thoughts are Think about the day ahead, think about the days prior, and there is some benefit.
无论你的想法是什么，只要坐下来想想未来的一天，想想之前的日子，会有一些好处。
And the creative benefit there, you mentioned Einstein.
你提到了爱因斯坦的创造性好处。
Another one that is often mentioned to me is Edison, Thomas Edison, the inventor.
另一位我经常提到的人是爱迪生，发明家托马斯·爱迪生。
And Edison was claimed to be a short sleeper.
据说爱迪生睡眠时间很短。
People will say, "Well, he was a brilliant inventor, but he said that he didn't sleep very much." Turns out that Edison was a habitual napper during the day, and I've got lots of pictures of him napping on his workbench in his studio, him napping in the garden.
人们会说：“嗯，他是一位出色的发明家，但他说他睡得不多。”事实证明，爱迪生白天有打瞌睡的习惯，我有很多他在工作室的工作台上打盹的照片，他在花园里打盹的照片。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love it.
我喜欢它。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
And it's-
这是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I took a 45-minute nap today.
嗯，我今天睡了 45 分钟。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
And it was, he-- And what was-
那是，他——那是什么——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm no Edison-
我不是爱迪生-
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Well, I-
嗯，我——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but I subscribe to his protocols.
但我同意他的协议。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
But he understood the creative brilliance of sleep, to your point about writing things down, and he used it ruthlessly as a tool.
但他理解睡眠的创造性才华，理解将事情写下来的观点，并且他无情地将其用作一种工具。
And here's what he would do.
这就是他要做的。
It's genius.
这是天才。
He would take a pair of steel ball bearings in his right hand, and he would sit in his office on a reclining chair with a rest for his arm, and then he would put a pad of paper and a pen next to him, and then he would gradually start to relax off.
他右手拿着一对钢珠轴承，坐在办公室的躺椅上，手臂休息一下，然后在旁边放上一张纸和一支笔，然后慢慢开始放松。
But what he'd done was he'd used a metal saucepan and turned it upside down and placed it underneath the armrest.
但他所做的是用一个金属平底锅，把它倒过来放在扶手下面。
And as he was drifting off into that state, into that sort of liminal state, so he didn't go too far into sleep, what would happen is that his muscle tone would gradually relax.
当他逐渐进入那种状态，进入那种阈限状态时，所以他并没有睡得太熟，会发生的事情是他的肌肉张力会逐渐放松。
He would release the steel ball bearings.
他将释放钢珠轴承。
They would crash on the saucepan, wake him up, and then he would start to write down all of the ideas that he was having from that liminal state.
它们会撞在平底锅上，叫醒他，然后他会开始写下他在那个阈限状态下产生的所有想法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, you said saucepan.
哦，你说的是平底锅。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Saucepan.
平底锅。
Sorry.
对不起。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's why it w- no, no, that's okay.
这就是为什么它-不，不，没关系。
But very-
但非常-
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Bad accent
口音不好
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
so it made a clanging sound-
于是发出了叮当作响的声音——
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
A crashing.
一声崩溃。
So it was a metal saucepan underneath.
所以下面是一个金属锅。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Or a water pail.
或者水桶。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
...
...
whatever it was, and it would crash there, wake him up, and then he would write down these ideas.
不管它是什么，它都会在那里崩溃，唤醒他，然后他会写下这些想法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So interesting.
太有趣了。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
And in fact, if you look at his house, which is preserved, historical, you can walk around, and he had nap cots installed in his house, so he could go into different rooms and take naps in these little cots.
事实上，如果你看看他的房子，它是保存完好的，历史悠久的，你可以四处走动，他的房子里安装了小睡床，所以他可以进入不同的房间，在这些小床上小睡。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, listen, I-
哦，听着，我——
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
For his genius.
为了他的天才。
But it's-
但它是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, sorry
哦，对不起
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
...
...
brilliant, isn't it?
太棒了，不是吗？
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It is brilliant.
太棒了。
Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt, but it was out of enthusiasm.
抱歉，我不是故意打扰的，只是出于热情。
I don't want to give too much detailed information about Rick's working environment, but yeah, let's just say there are a lot of places to lie down-
我不想提供太多有关 Rick 工作环境的详细信息，但是，是的，我们只能说有很多可以躺下的地方——
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and access these states of mind.
并访问这些心态。
And it looks like somebody just lying there with their eyes closed, but there's an extremely active mind in there.
看起来就像一个人闭着眼睛躺在那里，但里面有一个非常活跃的思想。
Obviously, look at the productive output- ...
显然，看看生产产出 - ...
of Rick's career.
瑞克的职业生涯。
It's truly something to behold.
这确实是值得一看的。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
It's a phenomenon.
这是一种现象。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Behold in capital, bold, underlined, highlighted letters.
请注意大写、粗体、下划线、突出显示的字母。
But it's so clear to me, based on all the examples you gave, the ones that we're kind of batting back and forth now, and I think there's a book, the title is something like "Winston Churchill's Nap" or something like that, that my dad is always talking-- My dad's a theoretical physicist, always talks about napping is so key to one's ability to come up with novel solutions.
但我很清楚，根据你给出的所有例子，我们现在正在反复讨论的例子，我认为有一本书，书名是“温斯顿·丘吉尔的午睡”或类似的东西，我父亲总是在谈论——我父亲是一位理论物理学家，总是谈论午睡对于一个人提出新颖解决方案的能力至关重要。
I guess that napping frequently throughout the day perhaps violates some of the tenets that you described in the episode on napping and caffeine, episode three.
我想全天频繁打盹可能违反了您在第三集有关打盹和咖啡因的剧集中描述的一些原则。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
But we put this, I think you were great-
但我们把这个，我认为你很棒-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But we put it in context
但我们把它放在上下文中
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
...
...
because we put in guardrails-
因为我们安装了护栏——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
...
...
and we put in the protocols to say-
我们在协议中写道：
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
...
...
okay, naps under certain circumstances are no bad thing at all.
好吧，在某些情况下小睡一点也不是什么坏事。
And if you're going to do it, here are the suggested guidelines as to exactly how you optimize naps with a protocol.
如果您打算这样做，这里有关于如何通过协议优化小睡的建议指南。
But I think it's very worthwhile to just appreciate exactly how complex sleep is in terms of what it's doing for information processing.
但我认为，准确地理解睡眠在信息处理方面的复杂性是非常值得的。
And if you were to ask me, look, what's the take-home of this final section, I think it's no one has ever told you, "Andrew, you really need to stay awake on a problem." They've told you that you should sleep-
如果你问我，看，最后一节的收获是什么，我想从来没有人告诉过你，“安德鲁，你真的需要对一个问题保持清醒。”他们告诉你你应该睡觉——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, many times
不，很多次
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
...
...
on a problem.
关于一个问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like, go to sleep.
比如，去睡觉吧。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah, sleep on a problem.
是的，睡觉时解决一个问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
And what's interesting is that in every language that I've inquired about to date, from English to Swahili, that phrase, sleeping on a problem, or something like it, very much exists.
有趣的是，在我迄今为止查询过的每种语言中，从英语到斯瓦希里语，“沉睡于问题”或类似的短语都非常存在。
I think the Spanish someone was telling me is, translated is, you have a conversation with your pillow, which I thought was lovely.
我想有人告诉我的西班牙语是，翻译过来就是，你和你的枕头对话，我觉得这很可爱。
What I also was struck by a fellow who was French said, "You in England, you say you sleep on a problem.
令我震惊的是，一位法国人说：“你在英国，你说你在一个问题上睡觉。
Well, the French translation is much closer to you sleep with a problem." And I thought that says-
嗯，法语翻译更接近于你带着问题入睡。”我认为这说的是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How French.
多么法国啊。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
...
...
so much about the romantic difference between-
关于浪漫之间的差异就这么多了——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes
是的
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
...
...
the beautiful French and the English.
美丽的法语和英语。
You sleep on a problem versus you sleep with a problem.
你带着问题入睡，还是带着问题入睡。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes, I agree.
是的，我同意。
I think not only does it have more romantic notions, but I like it because there's a symbiotic aspect to sleeping with the problem.
我认为它不仅有更多浪漫的想法，而且我喜欢它，因为与问题一起睡觉有一个共生的方面。
There's kind of a meshing with the challenge in a way that isn't as combative.
以一种不那么好斗的方式来应对挑战。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like this thing that's weighing on you, you go to sleep, but then you're supposed to wake up and feel like you've solved it, like eureka, right?
就像这件压在你身上的事情一样，你去睡觉，但随后你应该醒来并感觉你已经解决了它，就像尤里卡一样，对吧？
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah, you push down on it rather than it's a collaboration with sleep rather than a demand-
是的，你强迫它而不是与睡眠合作而不是需求-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
...
...
from it.
从它。
But I also think it's, I make that notion about language translation and maybe a slight joke, but what it also tells me is this, that that phenomenon of sleep-dependent creativity transcends cultural boundaries.
但我也认为，我提出了关于语言翻译的概念，也许是一个小小的玩笑，但它也告诉我的是，依赖睡眠的创造力的现象超越了文化界限。
It is common across the globe.
这在全球范围内都很常见。
It's a universal phenomenon.
这是一个普遍现象。
Why?
为什么？
Well, because sleep is a universal phenomenon, not just even in humans, but in almost every species that we've studied carefully to date.
嗯，因为睡眠是一种普遍现象，不仅存在于人类中，而且存在于迄今为止我们仔细研究过的几乎所有物种中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
As you described the French ...
正如你所描述的法国人......
notion of sleeping with a problem, I think the image that comes to mind is that perhaps the idea is if you're going to sleep with a problem, that you should be the big spoon and they should be the little spoon.
带着问题入睡的概念，我想你脑海中浮现的形象可能是，如果你要带着问题入睡，你应该是大勺子，他们应该是小勺子。
As opposed to the problem being the big spoon and you're kind of wrapped in the problem.
与问题相反的是大勺子，你有点被问题所困扰。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe the problem needs to mesh with you, but maybe I'm taking this imagery-
也许这个问题需要与你融合，但也许我正在拍摄这个图像-
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
No, I love it
不，我喜欢它
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a little too far.
有点太远了。
Before we close out this discussion about sleep and creativity, I can't help but bring up a set of questions around a different non-sleep protocol that in many ways seems to mimic sleep in that for some individuals throughout history, in particular the great physicist Richard Feynman-
在我们结束关于睡眠和创造力的讨论之前，我忍不住提出了一系列围绕不同的非睡眠方案的问题，该方案在许多方面似乎模仿了历史上某些人的睡眠，特别是伟大的物理学家理查德·费曼——
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
another habitual napper-
另一个习惯性打瞌睡的人——
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
by the way.
顺便说一句。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
An absolute idol of mine.
我绝对的偶像。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wrote about and spoke about his fondness for these flotation tanks that contain a temperature of water that is fairly neutral, so one doesn't recognize the difference between body temperature and the surrounding water.
写到并谈到了他对这些浮选罐的喜爱，这些浮选罐的水温相当中性，因此人们无法意识到体温与周围水温之间的差异。
And there's a certain amount of salt, salinity in the water that allows one to float at a kind of a depth within the water that one loses their sense of proprioceptive awareness, as you described-
水中含有一定量的盐，盐度可以使人漂浮在水中的某种深度，使人失去本体感觉，正如你所描述的-
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
earlier in this series, a key component of falling asleep.
在本系列的前面部分，我们介绍了入睡的关键组成部分。
And he talked about how under those conditions in the flotation tank, there was a kind of an untethering of one's notions of space and time that were very sleep-like, and that that was one of his go-tos for creative solutions.
他谈到了在浮选罐的这种条件下，人们对空间和时间的概念有一种放松的感觉，非常像睡眠，这是他寻求创造性解决方案的首选之一。
People talked about walks as a go-to for creative solutions.
人们谈论步行作为创造性解决方案的首选。
In the shower, people seem to come up with creative solutions.
在淋浴时，人们似乎想出了创造性的解决方案。
States of mind and activities where it's only somewhat goal-directed.
仅在一定程度上具有目标导向的心态和活动。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But basically, the idea is to just lose track of one's body positioning and let the mind go, so to speak.
但基本上，可以这么说，这个想法就是忘记一个人的身体定位并让思想走开。
And for that matter, psychedelics have on occasion been attributed as at least one of the sources of creative solutions.
就此而言，迷幻药有时被认为至少是创造性解决方案的来源之一。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I raise these ideas understanding that each one of those could be a podcast unto itself.
我提出这些想法是因为我理解其中每一个都可以成为一个播客。
But it seems to me that sleep, and in particular dream sleep, is nature's way of creating-
但在我看来，睡眠，尤其是梦中睡眠，是大自然创造的方式——
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
these states of untethering our rigid, linear understanding of what relates to what, and it provides this near magical mixing of things learned the day before, and that's the essence of creativity.
这些状态打破了我们对事物之间的僵化、线性理解，它提供了前一天学到的东西的近乎神奇的混合，这就是创造力的本质。
And humans have been trying to tap into the creative process through all these other portals for a long time with expensive technologies.
长期以来，人类一直试图利用昂贵的技术通过所有这些其他门户来进入创造过程。
But it's becoming very clear to me that the technology already exists.
但我越来越清楚这项技术已经存在。
And that it costs absolutely nothing, and that it has tremendous health benefits in addition to its benefits for creativity, and that technology is this brilliant technology of sleep.
而且它绝对不需要任何成本，除了对创造力的好处之外，它还对健康有巨大的好处，而这项技术就是这种出色的睡眠技术。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah, and dreaming.
是的，还有梦想。
It's a stunning state.
这是一个令人惊叹的状态。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Matt, thank you so much for today's discussion about sleep, memory, learning, and creativity.
马特，非常感谢您今天关于睡眠、记忆、学习和创造力的讨论。
We are now four episodes into this series on sleep.
这个关于睡眠的系列现在已经播出四集了。
First episode we discussed, rather you taught us about sleep and the biology of sleep, as well as some actionable takeaways.
我们讨论的第一集，您教给我们有关睡眠和睡眠生物学的知识，以及一些可行的要点。
So actually, I would say some important guidelines for getting one's sleep correct.
所以实际上，我想说一些正确睡眠的重要指南。
And then in the second episode, you went much further into protocols, both basic and advanced, for getting one's sleep right, maybe even optimized.
然后在第二集中，您进一步深入了解了基本和高级的协议，以确保睡眠正常，甚至可能进行优化。
And in the third episode, you taught us about naps and caffeine.
在第三集中，您教我们有关小睡和咖啡因的知识。
And today you've taken us on a beautiful exploration of the relationship between sleep and learning.
今天，您带我们对睡眠和学习之间的关系进行了精彩的探索。
What's more interesting than neuroplasticity and learning?
还有什么比神经可塑性和学习更有趣的呢？
After all, humans are unique in our ability to learn so many things throughout the lifespan.
毕竟，人类在一生中学习很多东西的能力是独一无二的。
It's one of the things that distinguishes us from the other species on the planet, the very, very long window, perhaps lifelong window for the opportunity to learn, and of course, creativity and novel solutions to challenging problems in the world, but also great works of art and music, et cetera.
这是我们与地球上其他物种的区别之一，非常非常长的学习机会，也许是终生的学习机会，当然还有针对世界上挑战性问题的创造力和新颖的解决方案，还有伟大的艺术和音乐作品等等。
I think we can fairly say, based on what you've taught us today, that sleep has been not only the bedrock of mental health, physical health, and performance since the beginning of time and still now, but also has been one of the fundamental drivers of human evolution because of all the creative insights that have occurred and all the learning that's occurred in sleep that's then been transformed into real-world technologies.
我认为，根据您今天所教给我们的内容，我们可以公平地说，睡眠不仅从古至今一直是心理健康、身体健康和表现的基石，而且一直是人类进化的基本驱动力之一，因为所有在睡眠中发生的创造性见解和学习都被转化为现实世界的技术。
Indeed, it's much of the way that we have the blessing of being right here right now.
事实上，这在很大程度上是我们现在有幸来到这里的原因。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
If that's the flag that you're raising, I will salute it.
如果那是你升起的旗帜，我会向它致敬。
Five ways till Tuesday.
到周二还有五种方式。
Very much, yes.
非常喜欢，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I'll salute that flag right with you, and also point to the exciting fact that the next episode, episode five in this series, you're going to teach us about the really tight relationship between sleep and emotional processing and emotionality, and I can't think of a more interesting topic to get into, especially at this point in the series, and I look forward to that discussion with emotional enthusiasm.
好吧，我会和你一起向那面旗帜致敬，并指出一个令人兴奋的事实，即下一集，本系列的第五集，你将教我们睡眠与情绪处理和情绪之间的紧密关系，我想不出更有趣的话题可以进入，特别是在本系列的这一点上，我满怀热情地期待着这一讨论。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
I can't wait.
我等不及了。
If folks are interested in trying to modulate their mental health, I think that next discussion should be very helpful with regard to sleep.
如果人们有兴趣尝试调节他们的心理健康，我认为接下来关于睡眠的讨论应该非常有帮助。
I hope so at least.
至少我希望如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me for today's episode with Dr. Matthew Walker.
感谢您接受我今天与马修·沃克博士的节目。
To learn more about Dr. Walker's research and to learn more about his book and his social media handles, please see the links in our show note captions.
要了解有关沃克博士的研究的更多信息以及有关他的书和社交媒体处理的更多信息，请参阅我们的节目注释标题中的链接。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请在 Spotify 和 Apple 上订阅该播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。
Please also check out the sponsors at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
还请在今天的节目开始和整个节目中查看赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have any questions for me or comments about the podcast or topics or guests that you'd like me to feature on the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有任何疑问或对您希望我在 Huberman Lab 播客上介绍的播客或主题或嘉宾有任何意见，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
On many episodes of the Huberman Lab podcast, we discuss supplements.
在休伯曼实验室播客的许多剧集中，我们讨论了补充剂。
While supplements aren't necessary for everybody, many people derive tremendous benefit from them for things like improving sleep, for hormone support, and for focus.
虽然补充剂并不是每个人都需要的，但许多人从它们中获得了巨大的好处，例如改善睡眠、激素支持和注意力集中。
To learn more about the supplements discussed on the Huberman Lab podcast, go to Live Momentous, spelled O-U-S.
要了解有关 Huberman Lab 播客上讨论的补充剂的更多信息，请访问 Live Momentous（拼写为 O-U-S）。
That's livemomentous.com/huberman.
这是 livemomentous.com/huberman。
If you're not already following me on social media, I'm hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 hubermanlab。
So that's Instagram, X, LinkedIn, Facebook, and Threads.
这就是 Instagram、X、LinkedIn、Facebook 和 Threads。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content covered on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和科学相关工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客涵盖的内容不同。
So again, it's hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
再说一遍，所有社交媒体平台上都是 hubermanlab。
If you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, our Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost newsletter that provides podcast summaries as well as protocols in the form of brief one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from neuroplasticity and learning to sleep, to deliberate cold exposure and deliberate heat exposure.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，我们的神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的时事通讯，它提供播客摘要以及简短的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从神经可塑性和学习到睡眠，到有意冷暴露和有意热暴露的所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol and much more, all of which, again, is completely zero cost.
我们有一个基本的健身协议等等，所有这些都是完全零成本的。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab, scroll down to Newsletter, and by supplying your email, you can subscribe.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到菜单选项卡，向下滚动到时事通讯，然后提供您的电子邮件即可订阅。
I want to point out that we do not share your email with anybody.
我想指出的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion all about sleep with Dr. Matthew Walker.
再次感谢您今天与马修·沃克博士一起参与有关睡眠的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。