Guest Series | Dr. Matt Walker: The Science of Dreams, Nightmares & Lucid Dreaming

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Welcome to the Huberman Lab Guest Series, where I and an expert guest discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

欢迎来到胡伯曼实验室嘉宾系列，我和一位专家嘉宾讨论了日常生活中的科学和基于科学的工具。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

Today marks the sixth episode in our six-episode series all about sleep, with expert guest Dr. Matthew Walker.

今天是我们关于睡眠的六集系列节目的第六集，由专家嘉宾马修·沃克博士主持。

Today's episode focuses on sleep and dreaming, as well as lucid dreaming.

今天的节目重点关注睡眠和做梦，以及清醒梦。

We talk about what's happening in your brain when you dream, both mundane dreams as well as heavily emotionally laden dreams, and we discuss how to think about and perhaps even interpret the content of your dreams.

我们谈论做梦时大脑中发生的事情，包括平凡的梦和充满情感的梦，我们讨论如何思考甚至解释你的梦的内容。

And we talk about lucid dreaming, which are dreams that occur while in sleep, of course, in which you are aware that you are dreaming.

我们谈论清醒梦，当然，这是在睡眠时发生的梦，在梦中你意识到自己在做梦。

And because unfortunately they are relatively common, we also talk about nightmares and both what to do about nightmares as well as how to think about nightmares.

不幸的是，由于它们相对常见，因此我们也讨论噩梦以及如何应对噩梦以及如何思考噩梦。

This being the final episode in the six-episode series all about sleep, I put the call out on my social media handles for any and all questions about sleep that I could direct to Dr. Matthew Walker.

这是关于睡眠的六集系列剧的最后一集，我在我的社交媒体上发出了关于睡眠的任何和所有问题的呼吁，我可以直接向马修·沃克博士提问。

So as today's episode closes, I ask him those questions, focusing specifically on the questions that were most frequently asked by you, the audience, and he answers them in rapid succession.

因此，当今天的节目结束时，我问他这些问题，特别关注您（观众）最常问的问题，他快速连续地回答了这些问题。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。

Our first sponsor is BetterHelp.

我们的第一个赞助商是 BetterHelp。

BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out online.

BetterHelp 提供由持证治疗师在线进行的专业治疗。

Now, I've been doing therapy for well over 30 years.

现在，我从事治疗已经超过 30 年了。

Initially, I had to do therapy against my will, but of course, I continued to do it voluntarily over time because I really believe that doing regular therapy with a quality therapist is one of the best things that we can do for our mental health.

最初，我不得不违背自己的意愿进行治疗，但当然，随着时间的推移，我继续自愿这样做，因为我真的相信，与优质治疗师一起进行定期治疗是我们可以为心理健康做的最好的事情之一。

Indeed, for many people, it's as beneficial as getting regular physical exercise.

事实上，对于许多人来说，这与定期进行体育锻炼一样有益。

The great thing about BetterHelp is that it makes it very easy to find a therapist that's optimal for your needs.

BetterHelp 的伟大之处在于，它可以让您轻松找到最适合您需求的治疗师。

And I think it's fair to say that we can define a great therapist as somebody with whom you have excellent rapport, somebody with whom you can talk about a variety of different issues, and who can provide you not just support, but also insight.

我认为可以公平地说，我们可以将优秀的治疗师定义为与您关系融洽、可以与您谈论各种不同问题、不仅可以为您提供支持，还可以为您提供见解的人。

And with BetterHelp, they make it extremely convenient so that it's matched to your schedule and other aspects of your life.

通过 BetterHelp，他们使其变得极其方便，以便与您的日程安排和生活的其他方面相匹配。

If you'd like to try BetterHelp, you can go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month.

如果您想尝试 BetterHelp，可以访问 betterhelp.com/huberman，第一个月可享受 10% 的折扣。

Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman.

再说一次，这是 betterhelp.com/huberman。

Today's episode is also brought to us by LMNT.

今天的节目也是LMNT给我们带来的。

LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.

LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。

That means plenty of the electrolytes, magnesium, potassium, and sodium, and no sugar.

这意味着需要大量的电解质、镁、钾和钠，并且不含糖。

As I've mentioned before on this podcast, I'm a big fan of salt.

正如我之前在这个播客中提到的，我是盐的忠实粉丝。

Now, I want to be clear.

现在，我想澄清一下。

People who already consume a lot of salt or who have high blood pressure or who happen to consume a lot of processed foods that typically contain salt need to control their salt intake.

已经摄入大量盐或患有高血压或恰好食用大量通常含有盐的加工食品的人需要控制盐的摄入量。

However, if you're somebody who eats pretty clean and you're somebody who exercises and you're drinking a lot of water, there's a decent chance that you could benefit from ingesting more electrolytes with your liquids.

然而，如果您饮食非常干净，并且经常锻炼并且喝大量的水，那么您很有可能通过液体摄入更多的电解质而受益。

The reason for that is that all the cells in our body, including the nerve cells, the neurons, require the electrolytes in order to function properly.

原因是我们体内的所有细胞，包括神经细胞、神经元，都需要电解质才能正常运作。

So we don't just want to be hydrated.

所以我们不只是想补充水分。

We want to be hydrated with proper electrolyte levels.

我们希望通过适当的电解质水平补充水分。

With LMNT, that's very easy to do.

有了 LMNT，这很容易做到。

What I do is when I wake up in the morning, I consume about 16 to 32 ounces of water, and I'll dissolve a packet of LMNT in that water.

我所做的是，当我早上醒来时，我会喝大约 16 到 32 盎司的水，然后将一包 LMNT 溶解在水中。

I'll also do the same when I exercise, especially if it's on a hot day and I'm sweating a lot, and sometimes I'll even have a third LMNT packet dissolved in water if I'm exercising really hard or sweating a lot, or if I just notice that I'm not consuming enough salt with my food.

当我锻炼时，我也会做同样的事情，特别是在大热天，出汗很多的时候，有时，如果我锻炼得很辛苦或出汗很多，或者如果我只是注意到我在食物中没有摄入足够的盐，我什至会把第三包 LMNT 溶解在水中。

If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt, spelled L-M-N-T, .com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with your purchase.

如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt（拼写为 L-M-N-T，.com/huberman），在购买时索取免费的 LMNT 样品包。

Again, that's drinklmnt, L-M-N-T, .com/huberman.

再说一遍，这是 Drinklmnt，L-M-N-T，.com/huberman。

Today's episode is also brought to us by Helix Sleep.

今天的节目也是由 Helix Sleep 为我们带来的。

Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep needs.

Helix Sleep 生产根据您独特的睡眠需求定制的床垫和枕头。

It's abundantly clear that sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance.

显而易见，睡眠是心理健康、身体健康和表现的基础。

When we're getting enough quality sleep, everything in life goes so much better, and when we are not getting enough quality sleep, everything in life is that much more challenging.

当我们获得足够的优质睡眠时，生活中的一切都会变得更好，而当我们没有获得足够的优质睡眠时，生活中的一切都会变得更具挑战性。

Now, one of the key things to getting a great night's sleep is to have the appropriate mattress.

现在，获得良好睡眠的关键之一是拥有合适的床垫。

Everyone, however, has slightly different needs in terms of what would be the optimal mattress for them.

然而，每个人对于最适合自己的床垫的需求略有不同。

Helix understands that people have unique sleep needs, and they've designed a brief two-minute quiz that asks you questions like, "Do you sleep on your back, your side, or your stomach?

Helix 了解人们有独特的睡眠需求，他们设计了一个两分钟的简短测验，询问您以下问题：“您是仰睡、侧睡还是俯睡？

Do you tend to run hot or cold during the night?" Or maybe you don't know the answers to those questions.

你晚上容易发热还是怕冷？”或者也许您不知道这些问题的答案。

If you go to the Helix site and take that brief quiz, they'll match you to a mattress that's optimal for you.

如果您访问 Helix 网站并参加简短的测验，他们将为您匹配最适合您的床垫。

For me, it turned out to be the Dusk, D-U-S-K, mattress.

对我来说，结果是 Dusk、D-U-S-K 床垫。

It's not too hard, not too soft, and I sleep so much better on my Helix mattress than on any other type of mattress I've used before.

它不太硬，也不太软，而且我在 Helix 床垫上睡得比我以前用过的任何其他类型的床垫都要好得多。

So if you're interested in upgrading your mattress, go to helixsleep.com/huberman, take their brief two-minute sleep quiz, and they'll match you to a customized mattress for you.

因此，如果您有兴趣升级床垫，请访问 helixsleep.com/huberman，参加他们的两分钟简短睡眠测验，他们将为您匹配定制床垫。

And for this month only, May 2024, you can get up to 30% off all mattresses and two free pillows.

仅在 2024 年 5 月这个月，您可以享受所有床垫高达 30% 的折扣和两个免费枕头。

Again, that's helixsleep.com/huberman to get 30% off and two free pillows.

再次强调，helixsleep.com/huberman 提供 30% 折扣和两个免费枕头。

And now for my conversation with Dr. Matthew Walker.

现在是我与马修·沃克博士的对话。

Dr. Walker.

沃克博士。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

My dear, good fellow, Dr. Huberman.

我亲爱的好朋友，休伯曼博士。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Today is the sixth and final episode in the six-episode series that we've been recording on sleep.

今天是我们录制的有关睡眠的六集系列节目中的第六集，也是最后一集。

During episode one, you told us about the biology of sleep and some actionable items to get the basics of sleep well worked out for each of us, and it's highly particular to our individual needs, and you explained how to define those needs.

在第一集中，您向我们介绍了睡眠的生物学原理以及一些可操作的项目，以便为我们每个人很好地了解睡眠的基础知识，并且它非常适合我们的个人需求，并且您解释了如何定义这些需求。

Then you beautifully described in-depth protocols for, let's call it optimizing one's sleep.

然后，您精美地描述了深度协议，我们称之为优化睡眠。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And then a third episode focused on caffeine, napping, and also food intake and its impact on sleep.

第三集重点讨论咖啡因、午睡以及食物摄入及其对睡眠的影响。

We talked about the relationship between sleep and learning and memory and creativity.

我们讨论了睡眠与学习、记忆力和创造力之间的关系。

And then, of course, in the fifth episode, just prior to this one, you beautifully described the literature and actionable tools for connecting sleep to emotional health and mental health, as well as the relationship between lack of sleep and certain mental health challenges or conditions.

当然，在第五集中，就在这一集之前，您精美地描述了将睡眠与情绪健康和心理健康联系起来的文献和可行的工具，以及睡眠不足与某些心理健康挑战或状况之间的关系。

Today, we are going to dive into a truly exciting and fascinating topic, which is dreaming.

今天，我们将深入探讨一个真正令人兴奋和迷人的话题，那就是梦想。

I can think of fewer topics more intriguing than dreams.

我能想到的比梦更有趣的话题很少了。

I know there's a lot of interest in lucid dreaming, that is, when dreaming while being aware that one is dreaming.

我知道人们对清醒梦很感兴趣，也就是说，当做梦时意识到自己正在做梦。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You'll tell us more about that.

您会告诉我们更多相关信息。

But I think dreams just intrigue and fascinate us for so many reasons, but not the least of which is that at some point we all seem to have them, and they seem to have a relevance for our lives.

但我认为梦想之所以让我们着迷、着迷有很多原因，但最重要的是，在某些时候我们似乎都拥有梦想，而且它们似乎与我们的生活息息相关。

They're not just epiphenomena, as we say.

正如我们所说，它们不仅仅是附带现象。

So today, I know you're going to explain what they do and do not provide for us, and I'm really excited to dive into this topic, as it's something that I've been fascinated by and I know many people are fascinated by.

所以今天，我知道你要解释他们为我们提供了什么和不提供什么，我真的很高兴深入探讨这个话题，因为这是我一直着迷的东西，我知道很多人都着迷。

So just to kick things off, how do we define dreaming?

首先，我们如何定义梦？

What is a dream?

什么是梦想？

What is a dream state?

什么是梦境状态？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

You would think it's fairly simple because when people say, "Oh, I had the strangest dream last night," everyone seems to know what's a dream.

你可能会认为这相当简单，因为当人们说“哦，我昨晚做了一个最奇怪的梦”时，每个人似乎都知道什么是梦。

And by the way, dreaming is, we take it for granted.

顺便说一句，梦想是我们认为理所当然的。

We say, "Oh, I had a strange dream last night." Just think about it, though.

我们说：“哦，我昨晚做了一个奇怪的梦。”不过，想想看。

Last night, both you and I, and everyone listening, as long as they slept, we all became flagrantly psychotic.

昨晚，你我，还有听着的所有人，只要睡着了，我们都变得明目张胆的精神病。

Now, before you reject my diagnosis of your nightly psychosis, I'll give you five good reasons.

现在，在你拒绝我对你夜间精神病的诊断之前，我会给你五个充分的理由。

First, when we start to dream, we see things which are not there, so we hallucinate.

首先，当我们开始做梦时，我们会看到不存在的东西，因此我们会产生幻觉。

Second, we believe things that could not possibly be true, so we're delusional.

其次，我们相信一些不可能是真的事情，所以我们产生了妄想。

Third, we get confused about time, place, and person, so we're suffering from disorientation.

第三，我们对时间、地点、人物感到困惑，因此迷失了方向。

Fourth, we have these wildly fluctuating emotions, something that psychiatrists call being affectively labile.

第四，我们的情绪波动很大，精神病学家称之为情感不稳定。

And then how wonderful, you woke up this morning, and you forgot most, if not all of that dream experience.

然后多么美妙，你今天早上醒来，你忘记了大部分（如果不是全部）梦境经历。

So you are suffering from amnesia.

所以你患有健忘症。

If you were to experience any one of those five symptoms while you're awake, we'd probably be seeking psychological or psychiatric treatment.

如果您在清醒时出现这五种症状中的任何一种，我们可能会寻求心理或精神治疗。

But for reasons that we still don't fully understand, that seems to be a normal biological and psychological, and in fact, and I'll describe the data, absolutely necessary life support perhaps, necessary set of experiences to go through.

但由于我们仍然不完全理解的原因，这似乎是正常的生物和心理现象，事实上，我将描述数据，也许绝对必要的生命支持，必要的一系列经历。

So that's the peculiarity of dreaming.

这就是梦的特殊之处。

But how do we define it?

但我们如何定义它呢？

One of the loose definitions that we often use in sleep science is that a dream is any report of mental activity upon awakening.

我们在睡眠科学中经常使用的宽松定义之一是，梦是醒来时心理活动的任何报告。

So I'll come into the laboratory, and I'll wake you up, and I'll say, "What was going through your mind?" And if you just say, "Nothing, really," then we note that down as no dream report.

所以我会走进实验室，叫醒你，然后我会说，“你脑子里在想什么？”如果你只是说“没什么，真的”，那么我们会将其记录为非梦想报告。

But if you were to say, "Well, do you know what?

但如果你说：“好吧，你知道吗？

I was actually just thinking about the next time you're going to come in and wake me up." Then we would report that as a dream.

其实我只是在想下次你要进来叫醒我。”然后我们会将其报告为一个梦。

But that's not really what most people mean when they say, "I had this strange dream." What they're referring to is dreaming that takes place during the stage of sleep called rapid eye movement sleep or REM sleep.

但大多数人说“我做了这个奇怪的梦”时，并不是真正的意思。他们指的是发生在睡眠阶段的梦，称为快速眼动睡眠或快速眼动睡眠。

And during REM sleep, there we have these bizarre hallucinogenic, these vivid, these narrative, these emotion-filled story experiences.

在快速眼动睡眠期间，我们有这些奇怪的致幻、这些生动、这些叙事、这些充满情感的故事体验。

Those are the types of reports that we get principally from REM sleep.

这些是我们主要从快速眼动睡眠中获得的报告类型。

So if I were to go back to episode one and say, think about those different stages of sleep, light non-REM sleep, deep non-REM sleep, and REM sleep.

因此，如果我回到第一集并说，想想睡眠的不同阶段：浅度非快速眼动睡眠、深度非快速眼动睡眠和快速眼动睡眠。

When does dreaming occur?

梦什么时候发生？

Well, if I wake you up during stage two non-REM sleep, that's one of the lighter forms of non-REM, early in the night, but especially later in the night, you typically will report a dream, maybe about 50% probability.

好吧，如果我在非快速眼动睡眠的第二阶段叫醒你，这是一种较轻的非快速眼动睡眠形式，在深夜，但尤其是在深夜，你通常会报告做梦，概率约为 50%。

50% of the time I wake you up out of that stage, no report.

50%的时间我把你从那个阶段叫醒，没有任何报告。

The other half, yes.

另一半，是的。

If I wake you up out of deep non-REM sleep, stages three and four, we're down to a 0 to 20% chance that you'll report a dream, so very, very unlikely.

如果我把你从深度非快速眼动睡眠（第三阶段和第四阶段）中叫醒，你报告做梦的可能性就会降低到 0 到 20%，所以可能性非常非常小。

If I wake you up out of REM sleep, somewhere between 80 to 90% probability that you are going to report a dream.

如果我把你从快速眼动睡眠中叫醒，你有 80% 到 90% 的可能性会报告做了一个梦。

There's nuance in that REM sleep story, by the way.

顺便说一下，快速眼动睡眠的故事有细微差别。

Rapid eye movement sleep is defined by those rapid eye movements.

快速眼动睡眠是由快速眼动定义的。

But when you're in that stage of sleep, you're not always having the eye movements.

但当您处于睡眠阶段时，您并不总是有眼球运动。

They come in these strange phases.

他们处于这些奇怪的阶段。

So though you will be in REM sleep, and we can define that with lots of different sensors on your brain and your body, but then there will be times when your eyes are darting back and forth and times when your eyes are not.

因此，虽然你将处于快速眼动睡眠状态，我们可以通过你的大脑和身体上的许多不同的传感器来定义它，但有时你的眼睛会来回移动，有时你的眼睛不会来回移动。

And when those eyes are moving during REM sleep, we call that phasic REM sleep.

当眼睛在快速眼动睡眠期间移动时，我们称之为阶段性快速眼动睡眠。

And when they're not, we call it tonic REM sleep.

当它们不存在时，我们称之为补品快速眼动睡眠。

Don't worry about the terminology.

不用担心术语。

When I wake you up out of tonic REM sleep, when the eyes aren't moving, I'm around that 80% probability.

当我把你从快速眼动睡眠中叫醒时，当眼睛不动时，我的可能性就在 80% 左右。

If I wake you up out of REM sleep when your eyes are darting back and forth, there is 95 to 100% probability that you're going to report a dream.

如果我在你的眼睛来回转动时将你从快速眼动睡眠中叫醒，那么你有 95% 到 100% 的可能性会报告做梦。

Some people theories in the past have said, well, if that's the case, then presumably those eye movements are tracking something in the dream.

过去有些人的理论说，好吧，如果是这样的话，那么这些眼球运动可能是在追踪梦中的某些东西。

If you do careful analyses, that just does not seem to hold up.

如果你仔细分析一下，就会发现这似乎站不住脚。

There is some evidence that that may be the case, but your eyes are moving back and forth.

有一些证据表明情况可能如此，但你的眼睛会来回移动。

It seems that these are impulses that are going to your eyes that don't have a strong correlation with what it is that you're dreaming visually in the scene.

这些似乎是进入你眼睛的冲动，与你在场景中视觉上做梦的内容没有很强的相关性。

That's not the case.

事实并非如此。

But That's a little bit of a definition of what dreaming is, and also when dreaming occurs.

但这只是对梦是什么以及梦何时发生的一个定义。

I should probably note, by the way, that we human beings seem to be special in our REM sleep dreaming amounts.

顺便说一句，我可能应该指出，我们人类在快速眼动睡眠中做梦的时间似乎很特殊。

Now, I've just done a little bit of a sleight of hand.

现在，我只是做了一点小伎俩。

When I say REM sleep, I'm going to infer that it's dreaming.

当我说快速眼动睡眠时，我会推断它是在做梦。

But Charles Nunn, a wonderful scientist, has looked at the proportion of REM sleep across different mammals, and what he found was that we human beings are a complete anomaly when it comes to our relative amounts of REM sleep.

但查尔斯·纳恩（Charles Nunn）是一位出色的科学家，他研究了不同哺乳动物的快速眼动睡眠比例，他发现，就快速眼动睡眠的相对时间而言，我们人类是完全异常的。

In other words, our dream sleep.

换句话说，就是我们的梦中睡眠。

He found that across most other primates, REM sleep was usually averaging about 9% of the sleep period.

他发现，在大多数其他灵长类动物中，快速眼动睡眠通常平均占睡眠时间的 9% 左右。

However, we human beings, on average, including when we're young, will have a REM sleep proportion of about 20%.

然而我们人类，平均而言，包括年轻时，快速眼动睡眠的比例会在20%左右。

So if you plot the amount of REM sleep of primates in a graph, they're all sort of clustered around this mean, and then all of a sudden on the far right-hand side, you've got this one single data point that sticks out.

因此，如果你在图表中绘制灵长类动物的快速眼动睡眠时间，它们都聚集在这个平均值附近，然后突然在最右边，你就得到了一个突出的数据点。

That's us, human beings.

这就是我们，人类。

And we don't fully understand why it is that we have such exceptional amounts of REM sleep.

我们并不完全理解为什么我们的快速眼动睡眠时间如此之多。

Now I've done a lot of hand-waving and written some theories about why that is, but it's still very unclear.

现在我已经做了很多挥手并写了一些关于为什么会这样的理论，但仍然非常不清楚。

The other thing, and I can go very philosophical about the functions of REM sleep and how it changed as we made the transition as a species from tree to ground.

另一件事，我可以非常哲学地探讨快速眼动睡眠的功能，以及当我们作为一个物种从树到地面的转变时它是如何变化的。

Because don't forget, as we mentioned in one of our episodes, when you're hanging like a bird on a tree, or you're resting on a branch as a primate up in the trees, and you go into REM sleep, you lose muscle tone.

因为不要忘记，正如我们在其中一集中提到的，当你像鸟一样挂在树上，或者像灵长类动物一样在树枝上休息，然后你进入快速眼动睡眠，你就会失去肌肉张力。

So it's quite a fragile state when you're 30 foot up in the air and you've got gravity desperately wanting to bring you and your limbs down to the ground.

因此，当您在 30 英尺高的空中并且重力拼命想将您和您的四肢拉向地面时，这是一种非常脆弱的状态。

But when we made the transition down from tree to ground, we no longer had to worry about that.

但当我们从树上过渡到地面时，我们就不再需要担心这个问题了。

Did that open up the opportunity for more REM sleep to occur, and that explains why we human beings have that?

这是否为更多的快速眼动睡眠提供了机会，并解释了为什么我们人类有这样的睡眠？

We don't know.

我们不知道。

REM sleep, however, does seem to be quite fundamental, and fundamental from a life necessary perspective.

然而，快速眼动睡眠似乎确实非常重要，而且从生命必需的角度来看也是非常重要的。

There were some studies done back in the 1980s, and they're studies that have not really been replicated, and I think I agree as to why, because ethically, they're right in that gray zone.

早在 20 世纪 80 年代就进行了一些研究，但这些研究尚未真正被复制，我想我同意为什么，因为从伦理上讲，它们正处于灰色地带。

In fact, for me, I find them quite uncomfortable when I speak about them or even teach them in class.

事实上，对我来说，当我谈论他们甚至在课堂上教他们时，我发现他们很不舒服。

They took rats, and they deprived them of sleep totally.

他们抓了老鼠，并完全剥夺它们的睡眠。

And what they found was that rats, on average, will die somewhere between about 13 to 17 days after total sleep deprivation.

他们发现，平均而言，老鼠在完全剥夺睡眠后大约 13 至 17 天就会死亡。

In other words, rats will die almost as quickly from sleep deprivation as they will from food deprivation.

换句话说，老鼠因睡眠不足而死亡的速度几乎与因食物不足而死亡的速度一样快。

It's that essential.

这是非常重要的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Brutal.

残酷。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

But then they did something different.

但后来他们做了一些不同的事情。

They said, "Well, what about the different stages of sleep?" So they selectively deprived them of either non-REM sleep and REM sleep.

他们说：“那么，睡眠的不同阶段又如何呢？”因此，他们选择性地剥夺了他们的非快速眼动睡眠和快速眼动睡眠。

The hypothesis was perhaps that non-REM sleep is, from an evolutionary perspective, a much older form of sleep.

该假设可能是，从进化的角度来看，非快速眼动睡眠是一种更古老的睡眠形式。

The first stage of sleep that came into being was non-REM sleep.

睡眠的第一个阶段是非快速眼动睡眠。

And the way we answer that is we look across phylogeny and these sort of different branches, and what we find is that in insects and in reptiles, amphibians, and fish, they all seem to have non-REM sleep.

我们回答这个问题的方式是，我们纵观系统发育和这些不同的分支，我们发现，在昆虫、爬行动物、两栖动物和鱼类中，它们似乎都有非快速眼动睡眠。

But for the most part, with a few exceptions, they don't seem to have REM sleep.

但在大多数情况下，除了少数例外，他们似乎没有快速眼动睡眠。

But if you look at birds and mammals, they do have REM sleep.

但如果你观察一下鸟类和哺乳动物，就会发现它们确实有快速眼动睡眠。

And in fact, it seems as though REM sleep evolved twice independently, once in birds, once in mammals, which tells us probably that it's essential if it's been forced through the evolutionary pipe twice independently.

事实上，快速眼动睡眠似乎独立进化了两次，一次在鸟类中，一次在哺乳动物中，这可能告诉我们，如果它被迫独立地经历两次进化管道，那么它是至关重要的。

So you would argue, well, if I selectively deprived you of non-REM, the older stage of sleep, presumably that's more life support necessary, and REM sleep.

所以你会说，好吧，如果我选择性地剥夺你的非快速眼动睡眠，即较早阶段的睡眠，大概这是更需要生命支持的，以及快速眼动睡眠。

REM sleep is the new kid on the block evolutionarily.

快速眼动睡眠（REM sleep）是进化过程中的新生事物。

They found the opposite.

他们发现了相反的情况。

They found that if they selectively deprive rats just of non-REM sleep, they did die, but it took them longer.

他们发现，如果他们选择性地剥夺老鼠的非快速眼动睡眠，它们确实会死亡，但需要更长的时间。

They died after about 60 days.

大约 60 天后他们就去世了。

If you deprive them of REM sleep, dream sleep, they died after 40 days versus 60 days.

如果你剥夺他们的快速眼动睡眠（做梦睡眠），他们会在 40 天和 60 天后死亡。

In other words, this new type of sleep, REM sleep, seems to be, on that basis, maybe even more important to supporting life than non-REM sleep.

换句话说，这种新型睡眠，即快速眼动睡眠，在维持生命方面似乎比非快速眼动睡眠更重要。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's super interesting.

超级有趣。

And as I recall from graduate school, there are certain patterns of brain activity that occur during rapid eye movement sleep.

正如我在研究生院回忆的那样，快速眼动睡眠期间会出现某些大脑活动模式。

Maybe we could go a little bit deeper into those patterns of activity.

也许我们可以更深入地研究这些活动模式。

I know you touched on some of these patterns in the first episode.

我知道你在第一集中谈到了其中一些模式。

The thing that comes to mind here is PGO waves, pons, geniculate, occipital.

这里我想到的是 PGO 波、脑桥、膝状体、枕骨。

Pons being an area of the brain stem that is chock-a-block full of different neurons involved in basic functions, rhythmic breathing, eye movements, and basic reflexive functions that preserve the well-being and life of the animal.

脑桥是脑干的一个区域，充满了不同的神经元，这些神经元涉及基本功能、有节奏的呼吸、眼球运动和维持动物健康和生命的基本反射功能。

And that the neurons there then do indeed connect to the thalamus.

那里的神经元确实与丘脑相连。

This is an egg-like shape structure in the middle of the brain where you have something called the geniculate, which there's an auditory geniculate and a visual geniculate, but that projects to this relay station for vision mainly, and hearing.

这是大脑中部的一个鸡蛋状结构，其中有一个叫做膝状体的东西，其中有一个听觉膝状体和一个视觉膝状体，但投射到这个中继站主要是为了视觉和听觉。

And then it goes up to the occipital lobe, the area in the back of our brain that, in sighted people, is responsible for conscious perception of images.

然后它上升到枕叶，即我们大脑后部的区域，对于视力正常的人来说，负责有意识地感知图像。

And I was taught, and I don't know if this is still true That based on the work of people like Mercy Steriad and folks like that, that these pons geniculate occipital waves of activity that were ongoing during sleep, I think during REM sleep, were essential for resetting something essential about brain function and wakefulness, so that you needed these PGO waves, and that maybe even the activation of the visual pathway was part of the reasons why we often experience such robust visual hallucinations during dreams.

我被教导，我不知道这是否仍然正确。基于 Mercy Steriad 等人的工作，我认为在快速眼动睡眠期间，这些脑桥使睡眠期间持续的枕叶活动波膝状化，对于重置大脑功能和觉醒的一些基本功能至关重要，因此你需要这些 PGO 波，甚至可能视觉通路的激活也是我们在梦中经常经历如此强烈的幻视的部分原因。

What is thought about PGO waves?

对 PGO 波有何看法？

Are they related to rapid eye movement sleep?

它们与快速动眼睡眠有关吗？

And are they somehow the reset that we need and indeed is essential for life?

它们是否是我们所需要的、并且确实对生活至关重要的重置？

Because, as you pointed out, in the absence of rapid eye movement sleep, we die.

因为，正如您所指出的，如果没有快速眼动睡眠，我们就会死亡。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

It's a great demonstration of the uniqueness of your brain.

这很好地展示了你大脑的独特性。

Essentially what we're asking is, this is your brain on dreams explain.

本质上我们要问的是，这是你的大脑对梦的解释。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And REM sleep has many different brain features to it.

快速眼动睡眠具有许多不同的大脑特征。

The first of which is, as we spoke in the first episode, your electrical brainwave activity at the top of the brain, the cortex, looks almost identical to that which you have when you're awake, which is stunning, because you're not conscious, you're lying completely still, no presence of muscle tone whatsoever, yet your brain seems to be just as on fire with electrical activity as it is when you're awake.

第一个是，正如我们在第一集中谈到的，你大脑顶部（皮质）的脑电波活动看起来几乎与你清醒时的相同，这是令人震惊的，因为你没有意识，你完全静止地躺着，没有任何肌肉张力，但你的大脑似乎就像你清醒时一样充满电活动。

Coming down a step, though, there are these unique pulses of electrical, almost like lightning bursts, that come up from the brain stem up to this sensory relay center in your brain called the thalamus, and then they were initially recorded out in the back of the brain in the visual cortex, hence this PGO waves describes the three sites that I've just mentioned.

然而，再往下走，就会有这些独特的电脉冲，几乎就像闪电一样，从脑干上升到大脑中称为丘脑的感觉中继中心，然后它们最初被记录在大脑后部的视觉皮层中，因此这个 PGO 波描述了我刚才提到的三个部位。

It goes from the brain stem, the pons, up to the thalamus, a part of it called the geniculate, and then out to the back of the brain called the occipital cortex, PGO.

它从脑干、脑桥，一直到丘脑（丘脑的一部分称为膝状体），然后到达大脑后部，称为枕叶皮层 (PGO)。

What they found was that those bursts of PGO wave activity were very much linked to these rapid eye movements.

他们发现 PGO 波活动的爆发与这些快速眼球运动密切相关。

So once you got this burst of a PGO wave, this sort of brain stem up into the brain burst, then you got one of these rapid eye movements.

所以一旦你得到了 PGO 波的爆发，这种脑干进入脑爆发，然后你就会得到这些快速的眼球运动之一。

So it was linking something there with the eye movements, and I told you that when you're having these eye movements, that's a state where there's a high probability of dreaming.

所以它把那里的某些东西与眼球运动联系起来，我告诉过你，当你有这些眼球运动时，那就是一种很有可能做梦的状态。

And is it a surprise then that the final destination of that lightning bolt where it sort of strikes is at the back of the brain in the visual cortex?

那么，闪电击中的最终目的地是大脑后部的视觉皮层，这是否令人惊讶？

Probably not.

可能不会。

There's also been some links with those PGO waves and learning.

这些 PGO 浪潮和学习也有一些联系。

Not so much that those PGO waves seem to consolidate memories.

与其说那些 PGO 波浪似乎巩固了记忆。

In other words, they may not be critical for sleep after learning, but they seem to be related almost to sleep and initial learning.

换句话说，它们可能对学习后的睡眠并不重要，但它们似乎与睡眠和初始学习几乎相关。

And the more that animals learn, the greater the amount of PGO wave activity they have when they go to sleep.

动物学得越多，它们入睡时的 PGO 波活动就越多。

So PGO waves are unique.

所以PGO波是独一无二的。

PGO waves don't simply just hit the back of your brain, that we've now measured them in all sorts of different cortical areas, and they seem to light up, the lightning splits, as it were, and it strikes all sorts of cortical areas.

PGO 波不仅仅击中你的大脑后部，我们现在已经在各种不同的皮质区域中测量了它们，它们似乎亮了起来，闪电分裂了，它击中了各种皮质区域。

So then the question was, well, let's take humans and let's put them inside of brain scanners.

那么问题是，好吧，让我们把人类放入脑部扫描仪中。

Let's allow them to fall into REM sleep, and then we'll start scanning the brain.

让我们让他们进入快速眼动睡眠，然后我们将开始扫描大脑。

What did we find?

我们发现了什么？

It was very interesting.

这很有趣。

When you look at the brain during REM sleep compared to, let's say, non-REM sleep, you see motor regions of the brain lighting up, you see visual regions of the brain lighting up, just as we described, you see memory-related structures lighting up, like the hippocampus, and you see emotional related structures, like the amygdala and something called the anterior cortex, the anterior singular cortex, I should say.

当你在快速眼动睡眠期间观察大脑，与非快速眼动睡眠相比，你会看到大脑的运动区域变亮，你会看到大脑的视觉区域变亮，正如我们所描述的，你会看到与记忆相关的结构变亮，比如海马体，你会看到与情绪相关的结构，比如杏仁核和一种叫做前皮质的东西，我应该说是前奇异皮质。

So if I were to just show you, an expert, a brain imaging map with memory centers related, in terms of their activity, emotion centers, visual centers, motoric centers, and I were to say to you, "Andrew, this is a scan that we got from an individual.

因此，如果我向专家展示一张大脑成像图，其中包含与记忆中心相关的活动、情感中心、视觉中心、运动中心，我会对你说，“安德鲁，这是我们从个人那里得到的扫描结果。

Just describe the type of experience that you think this person was having in the scanner," you would probably look at it and say, "Well, they were probably recollecting things from their past, memory structures.

只要描述一下你认为这个人在扫描仪中所经历的类型，”你可能会看着它并说，“嗯，他们可能正在回忆过去的记忆结构中的事情。

They seem to be having a visual experience, but there was also probably movement involved in that brain scanning experiment.

他们似乎有视觉体验，但大脑扫描实验中也可能涉及运动。

And also, there seems to be some degree of emotionality to it." That sounds strikingly similar to what we know dreams are like.

而且，这似乎还带有某种程度的情感色彩。”这听起来与我们所知的梦境惊人相似。

With one exception, though.

不过，有一个例外。

Another part of the brain bucked the trend of increased activation during REM sleep.

大脑的另一部分与快速眼动睡眠期间激活增加的趋势相反。

That part of the brain were the far left and right sides of your frontal lobe, something that we call the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex.

大脑的这一部分是额叶的最左侧和右侧，我们称之为背外侧前额叶皮层。

Terrible mouthful word salad.

可怕的满口词沙拉。

Essentially, it just means the far left and right sides of your prefrontal cortex.

本质上，它只是指前额皮质的最左侧和右侧。

Those are very important for logical, rational thinking, and decision-making.

这些对于逻辑、理性思维和决策非常重要。

Those parts of the brain went down in their activity, almost as though they were suppressed during REM sleep dreaming.

大脑的这些部分的活动下降，几乎就像在快速眼动睡眠做梦期间受到抑制一样。

So now let's go back to our map.

现在让我们回到我们的地图。

You're having a visual experience.

你正在享受视觉体验。

It's filled with movement and memories and emotions, but it's utterly bizarre, completely illogical, and totally irrational.

它充满了动作、记忆和情感，但却完全怪异、完全不合逻辑、完全不合理。

If that's not a perfect neural definition of this thing called dreaming, I don't know what is.

如果这还不是对“做梦”这个东西的完美神经定义，那么我不知道什么才是。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

It's so interesting we think of dreams, or at least I think of dreams as a fragmented Representation of real-world experiences from our recent past, maybe even the previous day, sort of meshed with our distant past experience.

我们想到梦是很有趣的，或者至少我认为梦是我们最近的过去，甚至可能是前一天的现实世界经历的碎片化代表，与我们遥远的过去的经历有点吻合。

And then, of course, our brain is also a very good anticipatory machine.

当然，我们的大脑也是一个非常好的预测机器。

And somehow, puts that into a movie that, for all purposes, when we're in it, we feel as if it's happening in real-time.

不知何故，将其放入一部电影中，无论出于何种目的，当我们身处其中时，我们感觉好像它是实时发生的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And then, of course, we try and untangle what the meaning of all that is.

然后，当然，我们会尝试弄清楚这一切的含义是什么。

I think people are really intrigued by dreams, because they just feel so real to us, and yet we know they're not of the same real that is our waking experience.

我认为人们真的对梦很感兴趣，因为它们对我们来说是如此真实，但我们知道它们与我们清醒时的经历并不相同。

And throughout history, people have alluded to the idea or have been convinced of the idea that dreams are meaningful, and something we're going to get into.

纵观历史，人们都曾提到或相信梦想是有意义的，也是我们将要进入​​的东西。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And I should mention, by the way, that your dreams based on those brain scans still remained your own.

顺便说一句，我应该提到，基于这些脑部扫描的你的梦想仍然是你自己的。

You were the only person privy to the experience of the dream itself.

你是唯一了解梦境本身的人。

I could stick you in a scanner and I could say, "Were you having a visual dream, and was it filled with motor activity and emotions and memories?" That tells me how you're dreaming.

我可以把你放入扫描仪中，然后我可以说，“你是否有一个视觉梦，它是否充满了运动活动、情感和记忆？”这告诉我你是如何做梦的。

It doesn't tell me what you're dreaming.

它没有告诉我你在做什么梦。

So at that point, you still had this degree of security and privacy.

所以到那时，你仍然拥有这种程度的安全和隐私。

No longer, it seems.

看来不再是了。

There was a great study done by a Japanese group using very advanced brain imaging technology and techniques such as multi-voxel pattern analysis.

一个日本小组使用非常先进的大脑成像技术和多体素模式分析等技术进行了一项伟大的研究。

Again, word salad, but it's a very clever technique, and they were able to start to understand exactly what you, Andrew Huberman, were dreaming, and they would know what you were dreaming even before you woke up and told us what you were dreaming.

再说一次，词沙拉，但这是一个非常聪明的技术，他们能够开始准确地理解你，安德鲁·胡伯曼，在做梦，他们甚至在你醒来并告诉我们你在做梦之前就知道你在做梦。

And they did a two-part experiment.

他们做了一个分为两部分的实验。

First, they showed you lots of very specific images, images of cars, of women, of houses, of men, of dogs, of cats, of just a whole category of different visual elements.

首先，他们向你展示了许多非常具体的图像，汽车、女人、房子、男人、狗、猫的图像，只是一整类不同视觉元素的图像。

And your brain was being scanned as you're awake, watching each of these.

当你醒着的时候，你的大脑会被扫描，观察每一个。

And then using this clever analysis, they were able to build up this very specific pattern, this very specific template of activity that, for you, Andrew Huberman, said, "He is now looking specifically at a set of keys," or, "He was looking at a car," or, "He was looking at a woman, or a man, or a house." And we knew ground truth in terms of what your brain looks like when it is seeing these different categories.

然后使用这种巧妙的分析，他们能够建立这个非常具体的模式，这个非常具体的活动模板，对你来说，安德鲁·胡伯曼，说，“他现在正在专门看一组钥匙”，或者“他在看一辆车”，或者“他在看一个女人，一个男人，或者一栋房子。”我们知道你的大脑在看到这些不同类别时的样子。

And then they did something clever.

然后他们做了一些聪明的事情。

Then they let those individuals sleep and go into REM sleep, and then they started waking them up and getting dream reports.

然后他们让这些人睡觉并进入快速眼动睡眠，然后他们开始叫醒他们并获取梦境报告。

But once they got the dream reports, the analysis team remained blind to those reports.

但一旦他们得到了梦想报告，分析团队仍然对这些报告视而不见。

What they did was almost like a forensic team that goes hunting for DNA at a crime scene.

他们所做的几乎就像一个法医小组在犯罪现场寻找 DNA。

They had the DNA, and they started going around and searching to see if they could find a DNA match.

他们有了 DNA，开始四处寻找，看看是否能找到 DNA 匹配项。

But here, they weren't using the DNA.

但在这里，他们没有使用 DNA。

They were using these templates of a woman's face or a car or a house, and they would search through this electrical, or this brain activity static of your dreams at night, and find these matches.

他们使用女人的脸、汽车或房子的这些模板，他们会搜索你夜间梦中的这种电或大脑活动静态，并找到这些匹配。

And then we could wake you up, get the dream report, and see how well did our brain performing a sort of algorithm match with your actual subjective report when you came out.

然后我们可以叫醒你，得到梦境报告，看看我们的大脑执行某种算法与你出来时的实际主观报告的匹配程度如何。

And it was stunning how close.

距离如此之近令人震惊。

So I could tell you were dreaming, but you were also dreaming about a house and a car.

所以我可以看出你在做梦，但你也梦想着房子和汽车。

You were dreaming about a woman, it turns out.

事实证明，你梦见了一个女人。

And we started to, once your dreams, as I said, were your own, but now no longer, because science can start to reveal those.

正如我所说，曾经你的梦想是你自己的，但现在不再是这样，因为科学可以开始揭示这些。

What we can't yet do is understand which specific woman in which specific house.

我们还不能做的是了解哪个特定的女人在哪个特定的房子里。

So what you would probably see my brain, based on my own proclivities, lighting up is, it would just be full of cars, probably.

所以你可能会看到我的大脑，根据我自己的倾向，点亮的是，它可能只是充满了汽车。

Sports cars, and then maybe another special individual woman.

跑车，然后也许还有另一个特别有个性的女人。

Those two things would be dominant, but you wouldn't know that I'm dreaming about the new Porsche 911 GT2 RS.

这两件事将占据主导地位，但你不会知道我正在梦想着新款保时捷 911 GT2 RS。

You can't tell that.

你不能这么说。

You can just simply tell me, "He was dreaming about a car." So there is still some distance to go.

你可以简单地告诉我，“他梦想着拥有一辆汽车。”所以还有一段距离要走。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I can't help but ask, based on what you just described, when people say things in their dreams, when they sleep-talk, how faithfully does that report what's in the dream?

我不禁要问，根据你刚才的描述，人在梦中说话的时候，梦话的时候，到底有多忠实地报道了梦里的事情呢？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

It doesn't at all.

根本没有。

And the reason is because when you're sleep talking or sleepwalking or even sleep eating, you're not dreaming because you're not in dream sleep.

原因是因为当你说梦话、梦游甚至吃东西时，你并不是在做梦，因为你没有处于梦中睡眠。

This is one of the fallacies that sleepwalking or sleep talking, stop dreaming, wake up, you're dreaming.

这是梦游或说梦话的谬论之一，停止做梦，醒来，你在做梦。

You're waking someone out of the very depths of deep non-REM sleep.

您正在将某人从深度非快速眼动睡眠中唤醒。

And these different things, sleepwalking, sleep talking, sleep eating, there's sleep-associated sex behavior, all of these things are what we call parasomnias.

这些不同的事情，梦游、梦话、梦中饮食、与睡眠相关的性行为，所有这些都是我们所说的异态睡眠。

Para meaning sort of around, somnia, obviously sleep.

Para 的意思是“周围”、“睡眠”、“显然是睡觉”。

So these are things that happen around sleep, but they're not quite in sleep.

这些都是在睡眠期间发生的事情，但它们并不是完全处于睡眠状态。

Because when you have those, you are launched from deep non-REM sleep up to wakefulness, but you don't make it all the way to wakefulness.

因为当你有这些时，你会从深度非快速眼动睡眠进入清醒状态，但你不会一直清醒。

And so you act out these very rote, routine, reflexive behaviors.

所以你就会表现出这些非常死记硬背、例行公事、条件反射的行为。

You just repeat certain words.

你只需重复某些单词即可。

You lift a cup to your mouth, go over to the refrigerator.

你把杯子举到嘴边，走向冰箱。

So They are not faithful to the dream, because if I were to gently wake you as you're sleep talking and say what was going through your head, you'll say nothing at all, and you don't report a dream.

所以他们对梦不忠实，因为如果我在你梦话时轻轻地叫醒你，说出你脑子里在想什么，你什么也不会说，而且你也不会报告你做了一个梦。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。

AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also contains adaptogens and is designed to meet all of your foundational nutritional needs.

AG1 是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮料，还含有适应原，旨在满足您的所有基本营养需求。

By now, I'm sure you've all heard me say that I've been taking AG1 since 2012, and indeed, that is true.

到现在为止，我相信你们都听我说过，我从 2012 年就开始服用 AG1，确实如此。

Now, of course, I do consume regular whole foods every day.

当然，现在我每天都会定期食用天然食品。

I strive to get those foods mostly from unprocessed or minimally processed sources.

我努力从未加工或最低限度加工的来源获取这些食物。

However, I do find it hard to get enough servings of fruits and vegetables each day.

然而，我确实发现每天很难获得足够的水果和蔬菜。

So with AG1, I ensure that I get enough of the vitamins, minerals, prebiotic fiber, and other things typically found in fruits or vegetables, and of course, I still make sure to eat fruits and vegetables, and in that way, provide a sort of insurance that I'm getting enough of what I need.

因此，通过 AG1，我确保获得足够的维生素、矿物质、益生元纤维以及水果或蔬菜中常见的其他物质，当然，我仍然确保吃水果和蔬菜，这样就提供了一种保证，确保我获得了足够的所需物质。

In addition, the adaptogens and other micronutrients in AG1 really help buffer against stress and ensure that the cells and organs and tissues of my body are getting the things they need.

此外，AG1 中的适应原和其他微量营养素确实有助于缓冲压力，并确保我身体的细胞、器官和组织得到它们所需的东西。

People often ask me that if they were going to take just one supplement, what that supplement should be, and I always answer AG1.

人们经常问我，如果他们只服用一种补充剂，该补充剂应该是什么，我总是回答 AG1。

If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.

如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。

You'll get five free travel packs plus a year's supply of vitamin D3K2.

您将获得五个免费旅行包以及一年的维生素 D3K2 供应。

Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman.

再说一遍，这是 Drinkag1.com/huberman。

Earlier in this series, you described beautiful experiments by Matt Wilson and others at MIT who explored neural activity within the brain, within the hippocampus in particular, an area associated with memory formation, in which the neurons in the hippocampus fire in the same sequence as they did during a particular daytime activity that preceded that night's sleep, but they do so at a much more rapid rate.

在本系列的前面，您描述了马特·威尔逊（Matt Wilson）和麻省理工学院的其他人进行的精彩实验，他们探索了大脑内的神经活动，特别是海马体内的神经活动，海马体是与记忆形成相关的区域，其中海马体中的神经元以与当晚睡眠前的特定白天活动相同的顺序放电，但它们的放电速度要快得多。

Sometimes they play in reverse, et cetera.

有时他们会反过来玩，等等。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This raises the question of, first of all, is that sort of neural replay of events from the prior day, is that also associated with dreaming?

这就提出了一个问题：首先，这种对前一天事件的神经重播是否也与梦有关？

Or more specifically, is that dreaming, or is dreaming that?

或者更具体地说，那是在做梦，还是在做梦？

And that's really to raise the larger question, which is, what is dreaming for?

这确实提出了一个更大的问题，那就是，梦想是为了什么？

What is the function of dreaming?

做梦有什么作用？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

So what we know is that Matt Wilson's data during non-rapid eye movement sleep, the brain was replaying those memories 10 to 20 times faster.

所以我们知道，马特·威尔逊 (Matt Wilson) 的数据显示，在非快速眼动睡眠期间，大脑重播这些记忆的速度要快 10 到 20 倍。

So but when you go into REM sleep, it's down to 0.5 times.

所以当你进入快速眼动睡眠时，它会下降到 0.5 倍。

So listening to this podcast now, and you hit that speed button, and you drop it down to 0.5, that seems to be the replay speed during REM sleep.

现在听这个播客，你按下速度按钮，然后将其降低到 0.5，这似乎是 REM 睡眠期间的重播速度。

We've not yet been able to confirm that in human beings, but if we did, does that mean we can explain the time differences that seem to happen in the dream state, that time is longer in the dream world than it is in the waking world?

我们还无法在人类身上证实这一点，但如果我们做到了，这是否意味着我们可以解释梦境中似乎发生的时间差异，即梦境世界中的时间比清醒世界中的时间更长？

I think that's fascinating.

我认为这很有趣。

But you're right, it does point us more towards the question, though, of what are the functions of this state called dreaming.

但你是对的，它确实向我们提出了更多的问题，即这种称为做梦的状态的功能是什么。

And we can get onto whether or not dreaming is a very faithful recapitulation of our waking experiences.

我们可以了解梦是否是我们清醒时经历的忠实再现。

And I'll give you a spoiler now, no, but I'll give you the data in a second.

我现在会给你剧透，不，但我会在一秒钟内给你数据。

But the functions of dreaming come back to some of the functions of REM sleep that we described in an earlier episode.

但做梦的功能又回到了我们在前一集中描述的快速眼动睡眠的一些功能。

Those two related functions in the episode on learning and memory was that one function of REM sleep seems to be creativity, associating memories together so that you can come up with these wonderfully divine solutions to problems you couldn't answer when you were awake.

在学习和记忆这一集中，这两个相关的功能是，快速眼动睡眠的一个功能似乎是创造力，它将记忆联系在一起，这样你就可以想出这些奇妙的神圣解决方案来解决你醒着时无法回答的问题。

The second came in our last episode about emotional and mental wellness, and we spoke about this theory that we put forward that REM sleep is a form of overnight therapy, and we described the evidence supporting that therapy.

第二个是在我们关于情绪和心理健康的最后一集中，我们谈到了我们提出的快速眼动睡眠是夜间治疗的一种形式的理论，并且我们描述了支持该疗法的证据。

So I would say that those are the two leading theories of REM sleep and associated dreaming.

所以我想说，这是快速眼动睡眠和相关梦境的两个主要理论。

But I perhaps didn't give you the full story there.

但我可能没有给你完整的故事。

There is a twist in both of those stories.

这两个故事都有一个转折。

I told you that when you are in REM sleep and you're dreaming, the next day, you are better able to assimilate and associate memories and come up with these creative insight solutions.

我告诉过你，当你处于快速眼动睡眠并且做梦时，第二天，你能够更好地吸收和关联记忆，并提出这些创造性的洞察解决方案。

It turns out that sleep is necessary for that, and not just sleep, but dream-related sleep, REM sleep is necessary for that, but it's not sufficient.

事实证明，睡眠对此是必要的，不仅仅是睡眠，还包括与梦有关的睡眠，快速眼动睡眠对此是必要的，但还不够。

You not only have to be asleep and dreaming to get those benefits, you also have to be dreaming of the very things that you are trying to solve the next day.

你不仅必须在睡觉和做梦时才能获得这些好处，而且还必须梦见你第二天想要解决的事情。

There's a great study by a scientist called Robert Stickgold at Harvard, and he had a whole group of individuals learn a virtual maze, and they were dropped down in different locations of the maze, and they had to try to get out of the maze.

哈佛大学的一位名叫罗伯特·斯蒂克戈尔德的科学家进行了一项伟大的研究，他让一群人学习了一个虚拟迷宫，他们被落在迷宫的不同位置，他们必须尝试走出迷宫。

And gradually, when you're dropped down in different locations, you do that enough times, you start to build up this mental map of the maze.

渐渐地，当你掉到不同的位置时，你这样做了足够多的次数，你就开始构建这张迷宫的心理地图。

And then he let one half of those participants take a 90-minute nap, and the other half remained awake.

然后他让其中一半的参与者小睡 90 分钟，而另一半则保持清醒。

And then some hours later, they tested them on the maze, and they measured how quickly were you able to navigate and get out of the maze.

几个小时后，他们在迷宫中对它们进行了测试，并测量了你能够导航并走出迷宫的速度。

That was the outcome measure.

这就是结果衡量标准。

And sure enough, just as we described, those people who slept versus those who didn't, they were better able to navigate the maze after they had slept versus those who remained awake.

果然，正如我们所描述的，那些睡觉的人与那些没有睡觉的人相比，他们在睡着后比那些保持清醒的人更能在迷宫中行走。

But then they went back, and they separated those individuals who were napping into two classes, because as they were napping, they were waking them up intermittently and getting dream reports from them.

但随后他们回去，把那些正在打盹的人分成两类，因为当他们打盹的时候，他们会间歇性地叫醒他们，并从他们那里得到梦境报告。

And what they found was that those people who slept And still had dream reports, but those dreams were not related to the maze.

他们发现，那些睡着了的人仍然有梦的报告，但那些梦与迷宫无关。

They didn't show an improvement.

他们没有表现出任何改善。

But those individuals who slept and who dreamt, but also dreamt of the specific maze elements themselves, they were the only subset of people, of participants, who showed the benefit.

但那些睡觉、做梦的人，也梦到了特定的迷宫元素本身，他们是唯一显示出这种好处的人、参与者的子集。

And that's a beautiful demonstration that, yes, you need to sleep to get creative benefits, and in fact, seemingly have dream sleep, but you also need to be dreaming about specific things.

这是一个很好的证明，是的，你需要睡眠才能获得创造性的好处，事实上，看似有梦的睡眠，但你也需要梦想特定的事情。

Is that rule true for the second function of REM sleep dreaming, this overnight therapy benefit?

对于快速眼动睡眠做梦的第二个功能（即过夜治疗的好处）来说，这条规则是否正确？

Yes, it does seem to be true.

是的，这似乎是真的。

There were some great studies by a scientist who has sadly passed away now, Rosalind Cartwright, and she was looking at different patient populations who had undergone really painful, difficult emotional experiences.

一位现已不幸去世的科学家罗莎琳德·卡特赖特（Rosalind Cartwright）进行了一些伟大的研究，她正在研究经历过真正痛苦、困难的情感经历的不同患者群体。

For example, a very bitter, painful divorce.

例如，非常痛苦的离婚。

And she would, at the time that those individuals were going through this difficult challenge, she would be recording their sleep, looking at their different stages of sleep, and she was collecting dream reports from them.

当这些人正在经历这个困难的挑战时，她会记录他们的睡眠，观察他们不同的睡眠阶段，并收集他们的梦境报告。

And then she would track them and their progression clinically over the next year.

然后她会在接下来的一年里跟踪他们和他们的临床进展。

And what she found was that some of those participants, about 50% of them, ended up getting clinical remission from their depression that was instigated by the painful experience they'd gone through.

她发现，其中一些参与者（大约 50%）最终从他们所经历的痛苦经历引发的抑郁症中获得了临床缓解。

The other half did not get clinical remission from their depression.

另一半的抑郁症并未得到临床缓解。

They remained depressed.

他们仍然很沮丧。

And then she used those two classes to go back and have a look at the sleep and the dream reports, and what she found was some differences in REM sleep.

然后她用这两个课程回去查看睡眠和梦境报告，她发现快速眼动睡眠存在一些差异。

But more interestingly were the differences in their dreams.

但更有趣的是他们的梦想的差异。

Both of those sets of individuals were dreaming at the time of going through those difficult emotional experiences.

这两群人在经历那些困难的情感经历时都在做梦。

Some of them, however, were dreaming of that challenging experience.

然而，他们中的一些人梦想着这种具有挑战性的经历。

Others were not.

其他人则不然。

Those who dreamt but also dreamt of the problematic experience were the ones who went on to get clinical resolution from their depression.

那些梦见但也梦见了有问题的经历的人是那些继续从抑郁症中得到临床解决的人。

Those who dreamt but did not dream of those events seemed to be the ones who did not get clinical remission from their depression.

那些梦到但没有梦到这些事件的人似乎是那些抑郁症没有得到临床缓解的人。

In other words, here once again is this new rule, that when it comes to dreaming, it's not just about sleep, and it's not just about dreaming, it's about dreaming of the specific things that you're trying to get the functional benefit from, whether that's creativity and insight or whether it's emotional resolution and overnight therapy.

换句话说，这又是一条新规则，当谈到做梦时，它不仅仅是关于睡眠，也不仅仅是关于做梦，它是关于梦到你想要从中获得功能性益处的特定事物，无论是创造力和洞察力，还是情感解决和夜间治疗。

Both of them seem to depend very much on the expression of dreaming of specific things itself, and we'll come on to why that's maybe relevant when we speak about lucidity too.

它们似乎都非常依赖于对特定事物本身的梦想的表达，当我们谈论清醒时，我们也会明白为什么这可能是相关的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What you just said is very reassuring, at least to me, because when I'm going through a challenging phase, which somehow seems to happen periodically in my life at a frequency that, let's just say keeps me dreaming- ...

你刚才所说的非常令人放心，至少对我来说是这样，因为当我正在经历一个充满挑战的阶段时，这似乎在我的生活中周期性地发生，其频率让我只能说让我一直在做梦......

about things.

关于事情。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

You're not alone, by the way.

顺便说一句，你并不孤单。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No, I'm sure I'm not, which is why-

不，我确定我不是，这就是为什么-

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

No, I didn't mean that.

不，我不是那个意思。

I just mean that there are lots of people who can resonate with that, so thank you for being vulnerable and sharing.

我只是想说，有很多人能对此产生共鸣，所以感谢你们的脆弱和分享。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

It's one of these things where I put my head down on the pillow, fall asleep, and assuming I can get good sleep amidst those real-life events, which is something that sometimes is the case, sometimes it's not.

其中之一是，我把头放在枕头上，睡着了，并假设我可以在这些现实生活中的事件中睡个好觉，但有时是这样，有时却不是。

I always dream about things related to those events or those events in particular, and I'm a longtime practitioner of writing down my dreams when I wake up from them, or as we discussed in an earlier episode, my phone is on airplane mode at night.

我总是梦到与这些事件或特别是那些事件相关的事情，而且我是一个长期实践者，当我从梦中醒来时，或者正如我们在前一集中讨论的那样，我的手机在晚上处于飞行模式。

Typically, I'll grab my phone, and I'll hit the voice memo button-

通常，我会拿起手机，然后按下语音备忘录按钮 -

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

or function rather, and I'll just, in my groggy state with my eyes closed so I'm not getting any light in my eyes, I'll describe what I can recall of the dream.

或者更确切地说，我只是在昏昏沉沉的状态下闭上眼睛，这样我的眼睛里就没有任何光线，我将描述我对梦的记忆。

Then I'll sometimes go back and listen to those recordings.

然后我有时会回去听那些录音。

And they've provided me insight, and in some cases, a path to solutions.

他们为我提供了见解，在某些情况下，还为我提供了解决方案的途径。

So I'm 100% on board the fact that our dreams can help us resolve challenges in our waking day.

所以我百分百相信我们的梦想可以帮助我们解决现实生活中的挑战。

What's always fascinating to me, though, is how the dreams are not a one-for-one representation of what happened during the day.

然而，令我着迷的是，梦并不是白天发生的事情的一一再现。

I think symbolism is a hallmark feature of dreams, and that's something I know we're going to talk about, in terms of dream interpretation, and much has been made of this throughout history.

我认为象征主义是梦的一个标志性特征，我知道我们将在梦的解释方面讨论这一点，并且在整个历史上对此做了很多工作。

So it seems that when we're asking what are the functions of dreaming, one of them is to resolve challenges from our daytime experience.

因此，当我们问梦的功能是什么时，其中之一就是解决我们白天经历的挑战。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

It's emotional first aid.

这是情感急救。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Yeah.

是的。

That's beautifully put.

说得很漂亮。

And in an earlier episode on learning memory and creativity, you described how specific sleep stages and perhaps dreams themselves are involved in the consolidation of memories from daytime experiences or things that we're trying to learn from daytime experiences.

在前面关于学习记忆和创造力的一集中，您描述了特定的睡眠阶段以及可能的梦本身如何参与巩固来自白天经历的记忆或我们试图从白天经历中学习的事物。

And then in the episode on sleep and emotions, it was made very clear that rapid eye movement sleep is a time in which we get a sort of therapy that is a disentangling of the emotional load of a given experience from the experience.

然后，在关于睡眠和情绪的章节中，我们非常清楚地表明，快速眼动睡眠是我们获得一种治疗的时间，这种治疗可以将特定经历的情绪负荷从经历中解脱出来。

So to me, it just seems so clear, dreams are critical.

所以对我来说，梦想至关重要。

Sleep is critical.

睡眠至关重要。

But I think one question that still remains unresolved, at least for me, is are dreams really there to just be a replay of our waking lives with some distortion because when the conscious mind is asleep, the unconscious mind can kind of throw things up to the surface in ways that don't seem so obvious?

但我认为，至少对我来说，仍然有一个悬而未决的问题是，梦真的只是我们清醒生活的重演，但有一些扭曲，因为当有意识的头脑睡着时，无意识的头脑可能会以一种看起来不那么明显的方式把事情抛到表面？

Symbolism, analogy, some of us are more visual than others.

象征主义、类比，我们中的一些人比其他人更注重视觉。

Are there any rules about the way that dreams convert our waking experiences into dream content?

关于梦将我们清醒的经历转化为梦内容的方式有什么规则吗？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

There are, and the short answer to your question, do we simply go into sleep, start dreaming, and then rewind the videotape and replay, in a faithful recapitulation, the waking day in our dreaming night?

对你的问题有一个简短的回答，我们是否只是简单地进入睡眠，开始做梦，然后倒回录像带并重放，忠实地重演我们做梦的夜晚中醒来的一天？

And the answer is no. And here again, the scientist I mentioned before, Robert Stickgold, with Roelofosse, they looked at this question, and it was a very difficult study to do.

答案是否定的。我之前提到的科学家罗伯特·斯蒂克戈尔德（Robert Stickgold）和鲁洛福斯（Roelofosse）一起研究了这个问题，这是一项非常困难的研究。

They did what we call experience sampling during the day, and they would give you a little beeper, and they would set it to go off multiple times throughout the day, and then you would write down what it is that you were experiencing right in that moment.

他们在白天进行了我们所说的体验采样，他们会给你一个小蜂鸣器，他们会将其设置为在一天中多次响起，然后你会写下你在那一刻经历的事情。

And again, they were trying to build up this sort of time-lapse photography, as it were, of your waking day experience.

再一次，他们试图建立这种延时摄影，可以说是你清醒的一天的经历。

And then they would bring people in, and they would start to record their dreams at night.

然后他们会把人们带进来，他们会开始记录他们晚上的梦。

And then they would match those two and ask, what is the degree of overlap?

然后他们会将这两者进行匹配并询问，重叠程度是多少？

What is the Venn diagram proportional percentage of those two things aligning?

这两件事对齐的维恩图比例百分比是多少？

And what they found was that there was really only about 2% of your dreaming life that was a very faithful replay and reiteration of your waking life.

他们发现，你的梦境生活中实际上只有大约 2% 是你清醒生活的非常忠实的重播和重复。

However, what they did find was something even more interesting to me, which comes back to this idea of overnight therapy.

然而，他们确实发现了一些对我来说更有趣的东西，这又回到了过夜治疗的想法。

They found that there is something that runs through like a red thread narrative from your waking life into your dreaming life.

他们发现有一些东西像红线叙事一样从你的清醒生活贯穿到你的梦境生活。

That is emotional concerns and people of significance.

那是情感上的关注和重要的人。

If there is anything in terms of an algorithm that seems to overlap and predict where those two Venn diagrams sort of collide, it really is in the emotional, personal significance space, once again pointing us to perhaps a reaffirmation that a key function of dreaming is about dealing with our waking experiences, and particularly the things that are salient to us.

如果算法方面有什么东西似乎重叠并预测这两个维恩图在哪里发生冲突，那么它确实是在情感、个人意义空间中，这再次向我们指出，也许梦的一个关键功能是处理我们清醒的经历，特别是对我们来说很重要的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay, so clearly there's a functionality to dreaming.

好吧，很明显，做梦有其功能。

But what should we make of the specific content of our dreams, really?

但我们到底应该如何看待梦的具体内容呢？

Meaning, should we interpret our dreams, or should we allow anyone else to interpret our dreams?

意思是，我们应该解释我们的梦想，还是应该允许其他人解释我们的梦想？

There are scores of books out there, websites, programs.

那里有大量的书籍、网站、程序。

There's a long history of this in classic psychoanalysis.

这在经典精神分析中有着悠久的历史。

What about this dream interpretation business?

这个解梦生意怎么样？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

It really started, you have to give credit in some ways to Freud.

它真的开始了，你必须在某些方面归功于弗洛伊德。

Although, if you look back at very ancient cultures, so much of their artwork, so much of their left imprint on the world suggests that they were fascinated by dreams, and used dreams, and gods of dreams.

尽管如此，如果你回顾一下非常古老的文化，他们的很多艺术品，他们在世界上留下的很多印记都表明他们对梦着迷，并使用梦和梦之神。

So we've always been thinking about what are these things called dreams, and can we interpret them?

那么我们一直在思考，这些叫做梦的东西到底是什么，我们可以解释它们吗？

But it was really Freud who put his seminal works together in 1899 and then published it in 1901, called "The Interpretation of Dreams," and it's probably one of his, if not his most famous text.

但真正是弗洛伊德于 1899 年将他的开创性著作整理出来，并于 1901 年出版，名为《梦的解析》，这可能是他最著名的著作之一。

And you can unfairly sum it up as if it's not one thing, it's your mother, when it comes to Freud.

当谈到弗洛伊德时，你可以不公平地总结它，就好像这不是一件事，而是你的母亲。

But in some ways, Freud, with his interpretation attempt, in my mind, was 50% right and 100% wrong.

但在某些方面，弗洛伊德的解释尝试，在我看来，50%正确，100%错误。

Because until the moment that Freud came along, we left the interpretation and the instigation of our dreams to things outside of us.

因为直到弗洛伊德出现之前，我们把梦的解释和激发留给了我们之外的事物。

Maybe there were comments that it was due to our soul, or it was from the gods on high, that they would descend down these dream manifestos to us.

也许有人评论说，这是由于我们的灵魂，或者是来自高处的诸神，他们才会将这些梦想宣言降临到我们身上。

But Freud, full credit, was the first person to put dreams front and center into this thing called the brain, the mind.

但是弗洛伊德，完全值得称赞的是，他是第一个将梦放在大脑和心智这个东西的中心位置的人。

So in some ways, Freud shifted dream science from really more of a spiritual, philosophical condition to very much a neuroscience.

因此，在某些方面，弗洛伊德将梦科学从更多的精神、哲学状况转变为神经科学。

It was of the mind, and therefore, of the brain.

它是心灵的，因此也是大脑的。

And earlier, he would try to describe the neural patterns, and he had these beautiful drawings of neuronal circuits that could try to explain what was going on.

早些时候，他尝试描述神经模式，他画了这些漂亮的神经元回路图，可以尝试解释正在发生的事情。

But neuroscience was so anemic at the time in terms of its knowledge, he had no chance to do what we can do now.

但当时神经科学的知识非常贫乏，他没有机会做我们现在能做的事情。

So in some ways, it's very unfair of me to criticize him as his theory being non-scientific.

所以从某些方面来说，我批评他的理论不科学是非常不公平的。

It is also non-scientific in the very strict sense of the word.

从严格意义上来说，它也是不科学的。

When we create a scientific theory, just as though he created his interpretation of dreams theory, we allow that theory to be testable, which is to say that a scientific theory is only a scientific theory if it can be falsified or supported.

当我们创造一种科学理论时，就像他创造了他对梦的解释理论一样，我们允许该理论是可检验的，也就是说，科学理论只有在可以被证伪或支持的情况下才是科学理论。

But Freud's theory was not a scientific theory.

但弗洛伊德的理论并不是科学理论。

It was not something that you could test, and therefore, it was not able to be falsified or affirmed.

它不是你可以测试的东西，因此它无法被证伪或肯定。

And in some ways, it was Freud's simultaneous downfall and his utter genius.

从某些方面来说，弗洛伊德的垮台和他的天才同时存在。

It's the reason that Freud remains to this day, because we can't put him in a box and say we've disproven him, but we equally will never be able to prove him.

这就是弗洛伊德至今仍然存在的原因，因为我们不能把他放在一个盒子里并说我们已经反驳了他，但我们同样永远无法证明他。

And therefore, he's been, in some ways, let go in hard science as being representative.

因此，在某种程度上，他在硬科学领域的代表性被放弃了。

His theory, which we don't need to get into, which was called disguised censorship, was really a very interesting proposition, which was that there was something about our dreams that was veiled and masked, and Freud believed that he understood the decryption code to our dreams.

他的理论，我们不需要深究，被称为伪装审查制度，确实是一个非常有趣的命题，那就是我们的梦中有一些东西被掩盖和掩盖了，弗洛伊德相信他理解我们梦的解密密码。

And if you tell him your dream, he has this special filter that he can pull that dream through the filter, and magically out on the other side is the true meaning of that dream.

如果你告诉他你的梦想，他有一个特殊的过滤器，他可以将那个梦想拉过过滤器，并神奇地在另一边看到那个梦想的真正含义。

There are several problems with that theory, not least of which, I think, at the time if you look at his writings, it seemed that Freud was probably doing enough cocaine to kill a small horse at the time, but we'll put that aside for a second.

这个理论有几个问题，其中最重要的是，我认为，如果你看看弗洛伊德的著作，你会发现当时弗洛伊德吸食的可卡因似乎足以杀死一匹小马，但我们先把它放在一边。

The issue there is that it's not very replicable as an analysis method.

问题在于它作为一种分析方法的可复制性不太好。

And there's a fascinating study that was, I remember from a conference, I should check to see if it's been fully published.

我记得在一次会议上有一项令人着迷的研究，我应该检查它是否已完全发表。

And they did something clever.

他们做了一些聪明的事情。

They took the Freudian method, and they took a single dream from one individual, and they had three Freudian psychoanalysts analyze that dream.

他们采用了弗洛伊德的方法，他们从一个人身上提取了一个梦，然后让三名弗洛伊德的精神分析师分析了这个梦。

So it was the same dream, but three different analysts.

所以这是同一个梦，但三个不同的分析师。

Now, in a scientific protocol, if it's a scientifically rigorous assessment tool, you would get back the very same answer from that measurement technique all three times, or very similar.

现在，在科学协议中，如果它是科学上严格的评估工具，您将从该测量技术中得到三次相同的答案，或者非常相似。

So for example, a carbon dating machine.

例如，碳测年仪。

If I were to take a fossil and put it in a carbon dating machine, and then another one and another one, for the most part, they're probably going to return something that's much more similar than different in terms of the carbon date of that fossil.

如果我把一块化石放入碳测年仪中，然后再一个又一个，在大多数情况下，他们可能会返回一些在该化石的碳测年方面更相似而不是不同的东西。

Why?

为什么？

Because it's been very well validated and replicated.

因为它已经得到了很好的验证和复制。

That's what you want from a scientific method and tool.

这就是您想要从科学方法和工具中获得的效果。

But when they gave the single dream, the fossil as it were, to these three different interpreters, the three different carbon dating machines, as it were, they all came up with completely different interpretations.

但是，当他们将同一个梦（即化石）交给这三个不同的解释者、三个不同的碳测年仪时，他们都得出了完全不同的解释。

And so that's not necessarily a reliable, valid method.

所以这不一定是可靠、有效的方法。

So in that sense, we've abandoned and let go of Freud as being relevant or meaningful.

因此，从这个意义上说，我们已经放弃并放弃了弗洛伊德的相关性或意义。

However, I personally, and I think if you look at the data, I don't mean that to suggest that you should not try to think about and quote unquote, interpret your dreams.

然而，就我个人而言，我认为如果你查看这些数据，我并不是说建议你不要尝试思考和引用，解释你的梦想。

And the term interpret when it comes to dreams is so loaded, so I would just simply say, see if you can really deconstruct some of your dreams.

当谈到梦想时，“解释”这个词是如此的沉重，所以我只想简单地说，看看你是否真的可以解构你的一些梦想。

I think dreaming, just as we've spoken about, is a very solid window into the things that you should be concerned about from your waking life.

我认为，正如我们所说，梦是一扇非常可靠的窗口，让你了解清醒生活中应该关心的事情。

It's very obvious that whatever it is that we typically dream are the things that our brain is telling us, the human being, this is the stuff that's essential.

很明显，无论我们通常梦到什么，我们的大脑都会告诉我们，人类，这是必不可少的东西。

This is the stuff you need to work through.

这是你需要解决的问题。

This is please pay attention to me.

这是请关注我。

And any amount of journaling or deliberation, digestion, cogitation of that specific dream is going to be beneficial to you.

任何数量的日记或深思熟虑、消化、思考这个特定的梦想都会对你有益。

Because in my mind, a life unexamined is not a life well lived.

因为在我看来，未经审视的生活不是美好的生活。

And that isn't just applicable to your waking life.

这不仅仅适用于你的清醒生活。

It's especially applicable to your dreaming life.

它特别适用于您的梦想生活。

Now, does that mean I'm suggesting that everyone should race out and start cataloging and interpreting their dreams?

现在，这是否意味着我建议每个人都应该竞相开始记录和解释他们的梦想？

Not necessarily.

未必。

But I am saying that if you wish to do that, I as a scientist, based on the data, am not telling you that that's hooey and non-scientific.

但我想说的是，如果你想这样做，我作为一名科学家，根据数据，我不会告诉你这是胡言乱语和不科学的。

I think it's very valid.

我认为这是非常有效的。

It's just that some of the Freudian principles, I think, we've been able to dislocate ourselves from.

我认为，只是我们已经能够摆脱弗洛伊德的一些原则。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I wholeheartedly agree with what you just said.

我完全同意你刚才所说的。

And I've spoken about dreams and their possible relevance to clinicians, psychiatrists such as Paul Conti and others.

我已经谈到了梦以及它们与临床医生、精神病学家（如保罗·康蒂）和其他人可能的相关性。

Some who have more of a psychoanalytic training than others, but certainly folks like Paul know a ton of neuroscience.

有些人比其他人接受过更多的精神分析训练，但像保罗这样的人肯定了解大量的神经科学。

They understand pharmacology.

他们了解药理学。

They understand family systems models, dialectical therapy, and so many other-

他们了解家庭系统模型、辩证疗法以及许多其他-

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

That man is, he's extraordinary.

这个人，很了不起。

He's not extraordinary, he's extraordinary.

他不是非凡的，他是非凡的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

He is extraordinary, and in part because he can synthesize across all these different domains of psychiatry, psychology, neuroscience, et cetera, as opposed to just existing in one silo like psychoanalysis or psychopharmacology.

他是非凡的，部分原因是他可以综合精神病学、心理学、神经科学等所有不同领域，而不是像精神分析或精神药理学那样只存在于一个孤岛中。

So, and there are others although few as extraordinary as Paul, which is why we hosted him on the series here.

所以，还有其他人，尽管很少有人像保罗一样非凡，这就是我们在这里招待他参加该系列节目的原因。

And one of the things that has come up in the discussions with Paul and others with similar training about dreams is that dreams seem to present us with emotional states and scenarios for which there's a lot of swapping in and out of identity.

在与保罗和其他接受过类似梦训练的人的讨论中出现的一件事是，梦似乎向我们呈现了情绪状态和场景，其中有很多身份的进出。

So for instance, the notion of symbols within dreams is a longstanding conversation.

例如，梦中象征的概念是一个长期存在的话题。

And I think one of the mistakes, as I understand it, is to assume that every time there's an animal in your dream that it represents children, or that every time it's a particular kind of animal, it represents your boss or something.

我认为，据我了解，其中一个错误是假设每当你的梦中出现一只动物时，它就代表孩子，或者每当它是一种特定类型的动物时，它就代表你的老板或其他什么。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Right.

对。

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

有时雪茄只是雪茄。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

On the other hand, it's very clear that within our dreams, there's rarely a completely linear one-for-one relationship with what happened in the daytime of real experience.

另一方面，很明显，在我们的梦中，与白天真实经历中发生的事情很少有完全线性的一对一关系。

So there seems to be a swapping in and out.

因此，似乎存在交换。

And there I just sort of zoom out, and forgive me for going long here, but I think this would be a good fodder for exploring this a bit more deeply.

在那里，我只是缩小了范围，请原谅我在这里说得太长了，但我认为这将是更深入地探索这个问题的一个很好的素材。

One of the best descriptions of brain function that I've ever heard is from the Nobel Prize-winning neuroscientist Richard Axel at Columbia, who often talks about the brain Creating abstractions of the outside world.

我听过的对大脑功能最好的描述之一来自哥伦比亚大学的诺贝尔奖获得者神经科学家理查德·阿克塞尔，他经常谈论大脑创造外部世界的抽象。

So if I were to take a photo of your face, for instance, and then show you that photograph, you'd say, "Yeah, that's me." But if I were a painter, I might swap some of the positions of components of your face and show it to you, and you might say, "Well, that doesn't look like me." And I'd say, "But that's my abstraction of your face." So to me, it makes sense because I understand the rules by which I made those swaps and moves.

例如，如果我给你的脸拍一张照片，然后给你看那张照片，你会说，“是的，那就是我。”但如果我是一个画家，我可能会交换你脸上的一些组成部分的位置并把它展示给你，你可能会说，“嗯，那看起来不像我。”我会说，“但这就是我对你脸的抽象。”所以对我来说，这是有道理的，因为我了解我进行这些交换和移动的规则。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There are some algorithms or rules that are known to me, so there's a sort of preservation of real world to the abstraction.

有一些我所知道的算法或规则，因此在某种程度上保留了现实世界的抽象。

And that's really what our brain does all the time.

这确实是我们的大脑一直在做的事情。

It attempts to faithfully represent the world around us, but it is indeed an abstraction.

它试图忠实地代表我们周围的世界，但它确实是一种抽象。

And when it comes to the colors of things or the position of objects, it's as one for one as our brain is capable of.

当涉及到事物的颜色或物体的位置时，我们的大脑能够做到一一对应。

But when it comes to ideas, to feelings, to our relationships to other people, the brain abstracts those in its own little neural symphony of-

但当涉及到想法、感受、我们与他人的关系时，大脑会在它自己的小神经交响乐中抽象出这些——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

this is the relationship to my dog, this is the relationship to my friend and colleague, Matt Walker.

这是与我的狗的关系，这是与我的朋友兼同事马特·沃克的关系。

So it makes sense that in dreams, those algorithms could be different.

因此，在梦中，这些算法可能会有所不同，这是有道理的。

They could be faster or slower, but they could also be entirely different, and I don't think we yet know what the algorithms of transformation of real-world experience to dream experience are.

它们可能更快或更慢，但也可能完全不同，而且我认为我们还不知道将现实世界经验转换为梦想经验的算法是什么。

And once we do, and I think someday we will understand those through electrical recordings and MRI-type experiments, and some of the experiments you talked about earlier point to this.

一旦我们做到了，我想有一天我们会通过电子记录和核磁共振类型的实验来理解这些，你之前谈到的一些实验也指出了这一点。

And so I think it's entirely reasonable to assume that we each have our own unique abstraction algorithms, so that indeed we can have consistent representation of real-world experiences and symbols, but that it's not going to be the same for everybody.

因此，我认为假设我们每个人都有自己独特的抽象算法是完全合理的，因此我们确实可以对现实世界的经验和符号有一致的表示，但每个人的情况都不会相同。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Correct.

正确。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right?

对吗？

Your way of abstracting your real life to your dream life could be entirely unique to you, and mine could be entirely unique to me, making it very difficult for a third party to come in and say, "Okay, Matt, here's what your dream means." But you can know what your dream means if you explore your dreams over time-

你将现实生活抽象为梦想生活的方式可能对你来说是完全独特的，而我的方式对我来说也可能是完全独特的，这使得第三方很难进来说：“好吧，马特，这就是你的梦想的含义。”但如果你随着时间的推移探索你的梦想，你就会知道你的梦想意味着什么——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

not just that one dream.

不仅仅是那个梦想。

Does that make sense?

这有道理吗？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

It makes total sense because in some ways, there is no one who knows your own autobiography, by definition, than you, than yourself.

这是完全有道理的，因为从某些方面来说，没有人比你自己更了解你自己的自传。

Now, I'm not suggesting that having that interpretation guided by someone who also understands the emotional problems that you're having and also sees your blind spots, which is what a really good therapist can do, can then help with that interpretation.

现在，我并不是建议由一个也了解你所遇到的情感问题并且也能看到你的盲点的人来指导你的解释，这才是真正优秀的治疗师可以做的，然后可以帮助你进行解释。

But you're right because my representation of information in the brain is going to be very biased by also what I've experienced in the past and how that past experience augments and modulates the current representation of that information, and thus the meaning of it for me, the unique individual.

但你是对的，因为我在大脑中对信息的表征也会因我过去经历过的事情以及过去的经历如何增强和调节该信息的当前表征而产生很大的偏差，从而影响它对我这个独特的个体的意义。

And you're also right to say that it's almost as though you're squinting your eyes when you're in dream sleep, in terms of the true vision of things.

你说的也对，就事物的真实视觉而言，当你在梦中时，几乎就像是眯着眼睛一样。

Things get a little bit wacky and distorted, this bizarre nature.

事情变得有点古怪和扭曲，这种奇怪的性质。

There is some very interesting data, and it comes back to what we described earlier, the neurochemistry of the REM sleep state.

有一些非常有趣的数据，这又回到了我们之前描述的，快速眼动睡眠状态的神经化学。

I told you that during REM sleep, levels of noradrenaline are at floor levels.

我告诉过你，在快速眼动睡眠期间，去甲肾上腺素的水平处于最低水平。

Noradrenaline is shut off.

去甲肾上腺素被关闭。

One of the things if you sort of drop noradrenaline onto neural circuits, it will very much increase what we call the signal-to-noise.

其中一件事是，如果你将去甲肾上腺素滴入神经回路，它会大大增加我们所说的信噪比。

And this is why noradrenaline, when it's released or if you administer it to an animal, you can become almost more directed.

这就是为什么当去甲肾上腺素被释放或给动物服用时，你几乎可以变得更有针对性。

You're much more divergent.

你就比较分歧了。

You're focused in attending, and it's really there.

你专注于参加，而且它确实在那里。

You're very blinkered.

你太狭隘了。

You're very focused.

你非常专注。

But when that goes away, the neural circuits become a little bit more loosey-goosey.

但当这种情况消失时，神经回路就会变得更加松散。

And I also told you that the other chemical, if there is a neurochemical that defines REM sleep dreaming, it's this thing called acetylcholine.

我还告诉过你，另一种化学物质，如果有一种神经化学物质可以定义快速眼动睡眠做梦，那就是乙酰胆碱。

And acetylcholine seems to do the opposite.

而乙酰胆碱似乎起到相反的作用。

It seems to inject a little bit more noise relative to the signal.

相对于信号来说，它似乎注入了更多的噪声。

So in other words, your brain circuits are neurochemically modulated when you dream to inject almost what we would think of as fuzzy logic.

换句话说，当你梦想注入我们所认为的模糊逻辑时，你的大脑回路就会受到神经化学调节。

And this is why I think the analogy that we spoke about in a previous episode holds, that when you are awake and you're given some information, you produce the most obvious links and obvious associations because you're very much blinkered and you have noradrenaline on board.

这就是为什么我认为我们在上一集中谈到的类比是成立的，即当你醒来并获得一些信息时，你会产生最明显的链接和明显的关联，因为你非常狭隘并且你体内有去甲肾上腺素。

But when you go into dream sleep, it's almost like the Google search.

但当你进入梦境时，它几乎就像谷歌搜索一样。

When you're awake, go straight to page one and it's very related.

当你醒来时，直接翻到第一页，它是非常相关的。

But do that same search when you're in the dream state and you go straight to page 35, and it's an utterly bizarre page, and you think, "Hang on a second.

但当你在梦境中进行同样的搜索时，你会直接跳到第 35 页，这是一个完全奇怪的页面，你会想：“等一下。

This has got nothing to do with the search term." When you read it, you think, "Well, if I squint my eyes, it kind of does." It's very distant, very non-obvious, but that's a very smart connection that as a waking brain, I never would have put together.

这与搜索词无关。”当你读到它时，你会想：“好吧，如果我眯起眼睛，那就是这样。”它非常遥远，非常不明显，但这是一种非常聪明的联系，作为一个清醒的大脑，我永远不会把它放在一起。

So I think neurochemically, we can start to understand it, but I think this is a very good, important point where you could almost say the very best person to interpret your dreams is probably you.

所以我认为从神经化学角度来说，我们可以开始理解它，但我认为这是一个非常好的、重要的观点，你几乎可以说解释你的梦的最好的人可能就是你。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I want to take a brief break and acknowledge our sponsor, Whoop.

我想短暂休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 Whoop。

Whoop is a fitness wearable device that tracks your daily activity and sleep, but also goes beyond that by providing real-time feedback on how to adjust your training and sleep schedule to perform better.

Whoop 是一款健身可穿戴设备，不仅可以跟踪您的日常活动和睡眠，还可以提供有关如何调整训练和睡眠时间表以提高表现的实时反馈。

As a Whoop user, I've experienced the health benefits of their technology firsthand for sleep tracking, for monitoring other features of my physiology, and for giving me a lot of feedback about metrics within my brain and body that tell me how hard I should train or not train, and basically point to the things that I'm doing correctly and incorrectly in my daily life that I can adjust using protocols, some of which are actually within the Whoop app.

作为 Whoop 用户，我亲身体验了他们的技术对健康的好处，包括睡眠跟踪、监测我的生理机能的其他功能，以及为我提供大量有关我的大脑和身体指标的反馈，这些反馈告诉我应该训练或不训练，并且基本上指出了我在日常生活中正确和不正确的事情，我可以使用协议进行调整，其中一些实际上是在 Whoop 应用程序中。

Given that many of us have goals such as improving our sleep, building better habits, or just focusing more on our overall health, Whoop is one of the tools that can really help you get personalized data, recommendations, and coaching toward your overall health.

鉴于我们许多人都有改善睡眠、养成更好的习惯或只是更多地关注整体健康等目标，Whoop 是真正可以帮助您获得个性化数据、建议和整体健康指导的工具之一。

In addition to being one of the most accurate sleep trackers in the world, Whoop allows you to recover more quickly and fully from physical exercise and other kinds of stress, and thereby to train more effectively and sleep better.

Whoop 除了是世界上最准确的睡眠追踪器之一之外，还可以让您从体育锻炼和其他压力中更快、更充分地恢复，从而更有效地训练和睡得更好。

If you're interested in trying Whoop, you can go to join.whoop.com/huberman today to get your first month free.

如果您有兴趣尝试 Whoop，您可以立即访问 join.whoop.com/huberman，享受第一个月的免费服务。

Again, that's join.whoop.com/huberman.

同样，这是 join.whoop.com/huberman。

Some dreams we'd rather not have.

有些梦想我们宁愿没有。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Hmm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Here, I'm specifically referring to nightmares.

在这里，我特意提到噩梦。

I've had one nightmare countless times throughout my life.

我一生中无数次做过一场噩梦。

I won't share what it is.

我不会分享它是什么。

It's not a real-world experience, or at least it's not a one-for-one real-world experience, but I've had this nightmare since I was a kid.

这不是真实世界的体验，或者至少不是一对一的真实世界体验，但我从小就做过这个噩梦。

I have it seldom these days, but every time it starts again, I'm like, "Oh, no." And there's a bit of lucidity to it, where I'm like, "Here I am again." Been working on this one a while, as you can imagine.

这些天我很少有这种情况，但每次它再次开始时，我都会说，“哦，不。”我心里有一点清醒，“我又来了。”正如你可以想象的那样，我们已经在这个问题上工作了一段时间了。

But given what we understand about the relationship between real-world experiences and dreams, what should we make of the fact that we have nightmares?

但鉴于我们对现实世界经历和梦境之间关系的了解，我们应该如何看待我们做噩梦的事实呢？

So let's just start there, the phenomenon of nightmares.

那么让我们从噩梦现象开始吧。

Does it represent something that troubled us in the daytime and that we're trying to work out in our sleep?

它是否代表了一些在白天困扰我们并且我们在睡眠中试图解决的问题？

And then maybe we can get into some of the specifics around why, regardless of whether or not the answer to that question is yes or no, that we would have this thing called nightmares.

然后也许我们可以了解一些细节，无论这个问题的答案是肯定还是否定，为什么我们会做噩梦。

Especially given that there's all this machinery to make sure that we don't move and the noradrenaline is low in the brain while we're dreaming.

特别是考虑到所有这些机制都可以确保我们在做梦时不会移动，并且大脑中的去甲肾上腺素水平较低。

Seems like there's all sorts of mechanisms to try and ensure that our dreams are very pleasant or at least neutral.

似乎有各种各样的机制可以尝试确保我们的梦非常愉快或至少是中性的。

But nightmares suck.

但噩梦很糟糕。

Get me that T-shirt, please.

请给我那件 T 恤。

So I'd love to know that they serve some utility.

所以我很想知道它们是否有一些实用性。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

So nightmares, how do we define a nightmare in science, clinically?

那么噩梦，我们如何在科学和临床上定义噩梦？

It's a little bit tricky, but usually the way we define it is, it's a strongly unpleasant dream that causes some time of daytime displeasure.

这有点棘手，但通常我们定义它的方式是，这是一个非常不愉快的梦，会在白天的某个时间引起不快。

So in other words, some type of daytime dysfunction or distress.

换句话说，是某种类型的白天功能障碍或痛苦。

So everyone can have a bad dream, but when you go up into your waking life and about your waking day, it doesn't seem to bother you too much, and maybe we'll just say that's a bad dream.

所以每个人都可能会做恶梦，但是当你进入你的清醒生活和你清醒的一天时，它似乎并不会太困扰你，也许我们只会说这是一个恶梦。

When it really becomes a nightmare is when, I almost think of it as though you wake up and that blanket of strong nightmare emotion is still wrapped around you, and you can feel it.

当它真正变成一场噩梦的时候，我几乎会想到，就好像你醒来了，那层强烈的噩梦情绪仍然包裹着你，你能感觉到它。

You can just know, my emotional state is still heavy, and I know exactly where it came from, and it was from that nightmare.

你可以知道，我的情绪仍然很沉重，我很清楚它来自哪里，来自那个噩梦。

And throughout the day, you don't seem to be able to derobe yourself from that cloaked affect of the nightmare.

一整天，你似乎都无法摆脱噩梦的影响。

It drenches you almost.

它几乎把你淋湿了。

That's where it really starts to become unpleasant.

这就是事情真正开始变得不愉快的地方。

And we actually do have a clinical category.

我们实际上确实有一个临床类别。

It's called nightmare disorder, and the way we typically define that is the same thing, as I said, a very unpleasant dream that causes some type of daytime distress, and it's happening at least once a week.

这被称为噩梦障碍，我们通常定义它的方式是一样的，正如我所说，一个非常不愉快的梦，会导致某种类型的白天痛苦，而且它每周至少发生一次。

At that point, we start to move it into this category of nightmare disorder.

那时，我们开始将其归入噩梦障碍的类别。

What are nightmares doing, if anything at all?

噩梦在做什么（如果有的话）？

There are at least two theories.

至少有两种理论。

One is that it's simply the system failing, the system gone wrong, and we're not processing, we're not moving through things, and therefore, nightmares are maladaptive.

一是这只是系统故障，系统出了问题，我们没有处理事情，我们没有经历事情，因此，噩梦是适应不良的。

They're not warranted.

他们没有保证。

They're not normative.

它们不规范。

The other is that no, they are adaptive, and they are meaningful, and it's us really trying to go to a very specific pain point, and we continue to process it over and over, perhaps to the point where we get resolution.

另一个是不，它们是适应性的，它们是有意义的，我们真的试图去解决一个非常具体的痛点，并且我们继续一遍又一遍地处理它，也许直到我们得到解决方案。

But sometimes we just don't, so it keeps cropping up.

但有时我们就是不这样做，所以它不断出现。

We don't have good data to disambiguate those two right now, so I think it still remains open, or at least I don't know of any data that tells me, are they functional or are they maladaptive?

我们现在没有好的数据来消除这两者的歧义，所以我认为它仍然保持开放，或者至少我不知道任何数据可以告诉我，它们是功能性的还是适应不良的？

Even when we get that answer, in some ways, it doesn't change the fact that it still leaves a patient with nightmares, with recurring nightmares.

即使我们得到了这个答案，在某些方面，它也无法改变这样一个事实：它仍然会让患者做噩梦，而且会反复做噩梦。

So then what do you do about that?

那么你对此做什么呢？

Is there any treatment for people out there if they're under this distress?

如果人们处于这种痛苦之中，有什么治疗方法吗？

Is there hope?

有希望吗？

And for a long time, there really wasn't very much hope at all.

在很长一段时间里，确实没有太多希望。

You just had to go through it.

你只需要经历它。

But recently, there was a method that was developed, and it's very effective, and it is called IRT, which stands for image rehearsal therapy.

但最近，有一种方法被开发出来，而且非常有效，它被称为IRT，代表图像排练疗法。

And its basis comes back to something that, in fact, we, I think, hopefully published the first evidence in humans of some years ago now, called memory reconsolidation.

事实上，我认为，它的基础可以追溯到几年前我们希望在人类身上发表的第一个证据，称为记忆再巩固。

So in our episode on learning and memory, we said that there is at least two main steps of memory.

所以在我们关于学习和记忆的一集中，我们说记忆至少有两个主要步骤。

First, you have to imprint and learn the memory, lay down that memory trace, but then that memory is very fragile and vulnerable to being overwritten by competing information, knocked out of place.

首先，你必须刻印和学习记忆，留下记忆痕迹，但记忆非常脆弱，很容易被竞争信息覆盖，被打乱。

And for you to hold onto that memory, you have to go through a second step called memory consolidation, a very slow process.

为了保持这种记忆，你必须经历第二步，称为记忆巩固，这是一个非常缓慢的过程。

It's like a very slow pressing of the Save button because it's biological.

这就像非常缓慢地按下“保存”按钮，因为它是生物性的。

It requires protein synthesis and all of that good stuff.

它需要蛋白质合成和所有这些好东西。

But that always struck me as a strange model because it's the equivalent of opening up a Word document.

但我总觉得这是一个奇怪的模型，因为它相当于打开一个 Word 文档。

You type out all of the information into it, and then you hit the Save button.

您将所有信息输入其中，然后单击“保存”按钮。

So I've encoded, imprinted the information, then I've hit Save and saved it, and then I close that file.

因此，我对信息进行了编码、压印，然后单击“保存”并保存它，然后关闭该文件。

And then the next day I come back, or some days later, and I double-click on that file again because I want to edit it.

然后第二天我回来，或者几天后，我再次双击该文件，因为我想编辑它。

I either want to add to it, or I want to revise it and change it.

我要么想添加它，要么我想修改它并改变它。

But according to that model, it's been locked in place, and you could never edit that Word document.

但根据该模型，它已被锁定，您永远无法编辑该 Word 文档。

That seems like a profoundly useless way to store information.

这似乎是一种毫无用处的存储信息的方式。

And what we learned is that every time in subsequent days when you reactivate, which is to say, when you recollect the memory that has been consolidated, it opens that memory file back up to once again being plastic and malleable, so you can go in and update the information in that memory store, and then the next night you consolidate it again.

我们了解到的是，每次在接下来的几天里，当你重新激活时，也就是说，当你重新回忆起已经被巩固的记忆时，它会打开该记忆文件，使其再次具有可塑性和可塑性，这样你就可以进去并更新该记忆存储中的信息，然后第二天晚上你再次巩固它。

In other words, you reconsolidate it.

换句话说，你重新巩固它。

So it's memory updating, and there is a very clear mechanism in the human brain that allows us to do this memory updating iteratively time and time again.

所以这就是记忆更新，人脑中有一个非常清晰的机制，可以让我们一次又一次迭代地进行这种记忆更新。

This comes back to nightmare disorders.

这又回到了噩梦症。

This therapy, image rehearsal therapy, or IRT, will have you sit down with a therapist, and at first you'll describe the nightmare that you're going through, and you'll write that narrative down.

这种疗法，即形象排练疗法（IRT），会让你和治疗师坐下来，首先你会描述你正在经历的噩梦，然后你会把这个叙述写下来。

And then working with a therapist, you will agree to think about a more neutral ending to that nightmare.

然后与治疗师合作，您将同意为这场噩梦考虑一个更中立的结局。

So let's say that I was involved in a very difficult car crash.

假设我遭遇了一场非常严重的车祸。

It was just horrific.

这太可怕了。

And every night since, I'd say at least once a week, I just continue to have the nightmare of the car crash.

从那以后的每个晚上，我会说至少每周一次，我都会继续做车祸的噩梦。

I know that I'm traveling towards the junction.

我知道我正朝路口行驶。

I apply the brakes.

我踩刹车。

The brakes have failed.

刹车失灵了。

I am just looking around, I'm trying to maneuver, but nothing is going to change this.

我只是环顾四周，试图操纵，但没有什么能改变这一点。

I go through the red light, and someone sideswipes me, and that's the end.

我闯红灯，有人从侧面擦我，然后就结束了。

And I relive that time and time again, and it's awful.

我一次又一次地重温那段经历，这太可怕了。

So you with the therapist, or I with a therapist, would then start to say, "Well, what about the alternative scenario?" I depress the brake, and the brakes don't work.

所以你和治疗师，或者我和治疗师，然后会开始说，“那么，另一种情况怎么样？”我踩下刹车，但刹车不起作用。

But gradually I think, well, I'm just going to reach over to the handbrake, and I'm going to gradually apply the handbrake, and that slowly is going to bring the car to a nice safe stop.

但渐渐地，我想，好吧，我只要伸手刹，我就会逐渐拉上手刹，慢慢地，车就会安全地停下来。

And then I'm going to call the emergency services, and the car is going to get towed.

然后我要打电话给紧急服务部门，车就会被拖走。

I don't go through the junction.

我不经过路口。

I survive.

我活下来了。

Everything's fine.

一切都很好。

So you rehearse this alternate ending, and you keep going through that, rehearsing that.

所以你排练这个替代结局，然后你不断地经历那个、排练那个。

And then you go to sleep the next night, and you'll probably have a high chance of that nightmare again.

然后第二天晚上你去睡觉时，你很可能会再次做那个噩梦。

But if you keep doing that, once you've got that alternative ending, essentially what you're trying to do is every time you reactivate the memory of the trauma car crash, and then you rehearse this alternate ending, it's like me going into the Word document and editing the section that was really horrific and bad and replacing it with something that's neutral or even positive.

但如果你继续这样做，一旦你有了那个替代结局，本质上你要做的就是每次重新激活创伤车祸的记忆，然后你排练这个替代结局，就像我进入Word文档并编辑真正可怕和糟糕的部分，然后用中性甚至积极的东西替换它。

And over time, then I sleep, and I will consolidate that memory, and I'll come back the next day, and I'll do some more editing and more updating.

随着时间的推移，我会睡觉，我会巩固记忆，第二天我会回来，我会做更多的编辑和更新。

And time after time after time, gradually you dissipate the narrative that is fixed inside of the brain, and the nightmare frequency decreases in proportion.

而一次又一次，你逐渐消散了脑内固定的叙事，噩梦的频率也成比例减少。

Now, it's not effective for 100% of patients.

现在，它并不是对100%的患者有效。

If you look at the data, on average, it's about two out of every three people.

如果你看一下数据，平均来说，大约是三分之二的人。

So about 66% of people will benefit, which, if you look at some medical treatments, that's a great treatment.

所以大约 66% 的人会受益，如果你看看一些医学治疗方法，那就是一个很好的治疗方法。

That's still very effective.

这还是非常有效的。

There was a very recent study from Sophie Schwartz and her colleagues at the University of Geneva that did an even more ingenious study, and they were able to nudge the effectiveness of that treatment from 66% up to 92%.

日内瓦大学的索菲·施瓦茨 (Sophie Schwartz) 和她的同事最近进行了一项更为巧妙的研究，他们能够将这种治疗的有效性从 66% 提高到 92%。

And they used an additional memory-related research tool we've come up with in sleep science, and it's called TMR or targeted memory reactivation.

他们使用了我们在睡眠科学中提出的另一种与记忆相关的研究工具，它被称为 TMR 或目标记忆重新激活。

And here's how it goes.

事情是这样的。

I'm going to have you learn a set of associations.

我将让你学习一组关联。

Have you ever played that card game, I think in America it's called Memory which is very apt, where you get a deck of cards, and it has two of the same item, two houses, two cars, two fire engines, two kettles.

你玩过那种纸牌游戏吗？我想在美国它被称为“记忆”，非常贴切，你得到一副纸牌，里面有两个相同的物品，两栋房子，两辆车，两辆消防车，两个水壶。

And you shuffle the cards, and then you put them face down in a big square, in a big matrix.

然后你洗牌，然后将它们面朝下放在一个大正方形中，放在一个大矩阵中。

And over time, you have to turn over one card, and it's a kettle.

而久而久之，你就要翻出一张牌，那就是水壶。

And then I'm just going to randomly pick another card-

然后我会随机选择另一张卡-

Speaker 3:

演讲者3：

Oh, yeah

哦，是的

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

...

and it's a fire engine.

这是一辆消防车。

Eh, okay.

呃，好吧。

But gradually you start to learn where each one of the pairs are located.

但渐渐地，你开始了解每一对的位置。

So what's clever about that is we would do that type of what's called a paired association memory test.

因此，聪明之处在于我们会进行所谓的配对联想记忆测试。

You learn these paired associates, and then we test you after a night of sleep, and you're better.

你学习这些配对的伙伴，然后我们在一夜睡眠后测试你，你会更好。

However, if as you're turning those items over, I play a congruent sound.

然而，如果当你翻转这些物品时，我会发出一致的声音。

So let's say you turn over the fire engine, and then when you turn over the other fire engine, I'm going to start playing a fire engine noise in the background.

假设您翻转消防车，然后当您翻转另一辆消防车时，我将开始在背景中播放消防车噪音。

So I'm bonding the association of the memory card pairs with this tone, with this congruent sound.

所以我将存储卡对与这种音调、这种一致的声音联系起来。

And then a kettle, I turn over a kettle, I turn over the other kettle, and it's whistling.

然后是一个水壶，我把一个水壶翻过来，我把另一个水壶翻过来，它就发出呼啸声。

And then when you let people sleep at night, if you start replaying those same tones at a sub-awakening threshold so you're not waking people up, and you bring them back, and let's say that you only do those sound cue reactivations for half of the memories that you've done, and the other half you leave untouched.

然后，当你让人们在晚上睡觉时，如果你开始在亚觉醒阈值重播相同的音调，这样你就不会吵醒人们，然后你把他们带回来，假设你只对你已经做过的一半记忆进行这些声音提示重新激活，而另一半则保持不变。

So within an individual, you have a unique within-individual control.

因此，在个人内部，你拥有独特的个人内部控制权。

You test them on the things that you didn't reactivate at night and those that you did.

您可以对晚上未重新激活的事物和已重新激活的事物进行测试。

It's almost like creating a bespoke playlist at night where you say, "Look, I learned all of this information during the day," or, "Wouldn't this be wonderful?

这几乎就像在晚上创建一个定制的播放列表，你可以说，“看，我在白天学到了所有这些信息”，或者“这不是很棒吗？

And then here's the stuff that I really think, personally, to me, I want to remember." Well, it turns out I'd been tagging that with particular music, and then at night, I replay that music, and the next day, it turns out that those things I reactivated are much more strongly consolidated by way of sleep than those things I didn't.

接下来是我个人认为我真正想要记住的事情。”好吧，事实证明我一直在用特定的音乐来标记它，然后在晚上，我重播该音乐，第二天，事实证明，我重新激活的那些东西比我没有激活的那些东西通过睡眠得到了更强烈的巩固。

So that's the basic method of what we call TMR, targeted memory reactivation.

这就是我们所说的TMR（定向记忆重新激活）的基本方法。

What they did was something very clever.

他们所做的是非常聪明的事情。

They had them go through this process of the image rehearsal therapy.

他们让他们经历了形象排练治疗的过程。

They were rehearsing the alternate ending, but about every 10 seconds, they were playing them this very pleasing piano chord in the background.

他们正在排练另一个结局，但大约每隔 10 秒，他们就会在背景中弹奏一段非常令人愉悦的钢琴和弦。

And they were just bonding the association of the new outcome ending to the nightmare with this pleasant piano chord.

他们只是将新的结局与噩梦的结局与这令人愉悦的钢琴和弦联系起来。

And then sure enough, in the subsequent weeks afterwards, not only was that person day after day doing the diligent therapy practice of rehearsing the memory whilst the piano tone was playing, but then at night, they would wait until they went into REM sleep, which is the state we think the emotional therapy begins, and they would start to replay that same piano chord over and over again.

果然，在接下来的几周里，那个人不仅日复一日地在弹奏钢琴音的同时进行勤奋的治疗练习，排练记忆，而且在晚上，他们会等到进入快速眼动睡眠，我们认为这是情绪治疗开始的状态，他们会开始一遍又一遍地重奏同一个钢琴和弦。

And sure enough, those people who had image rehearsal therapy standard, they improved by about 60% in their nightmare frequency reduction.

果然，那些进行了图像排练治疗标准的人，他们的噩梦频率减少了大约60%。

Those people who did that, plus the memory reactivation at night, it drove it from 66% all the way up to 92%.

那些这样做的人，加上晚上的记忆重新激活，将记忆力从 66% 一路提升到了 92%。

So now modern-day neuroscience, with its techniques, is starting to overlap with classical clinical psychology, and we're developing these next forefront of methods that really harness and fine-tune the brain's ability to undergo effective therapy.

因此，现在现代神经科学及其技术开始与经典临床心理学重叠，我们正在开发这些真正利用和微调大脑接受有效治疗的能力的下一个前沿方法。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's incredible.

太不可思议了。

I think that we've known about classical conditioning for a long time, and the case of Pavlov's dogs is the most- ...

我认为我们已经了解经典条件反射很长时间了，而巴甫洛夫的狗的例子是最......

known of those.

已知的那些。

Am I right in recalling that this paired association way of bringing about certain memories or strengthening certain memories in sleep can also be accomplished with odors?

我是否正确地记得，这种在睡眠中产生某些记忆或加强某些记忆的配对联想方式也可以通过气味来实现？

That it's not just the playing of tones during specific experiences, but also, for instance, if one were to pair a particular odor with a certain novel memory event in the daytime or attempt to learn something new, that if that odor is then infused into the room of the sleeping person later that night, that somehow the memories would be strengthened.

这不仅仅是在特定经历中播放音调，而且，例如，如果一个人将一种特定的气味与白天的某种新奇的记忆事件配对，或者尝试学习一些新的东西，那么如果当晚晚些时候将该气味注入到熟睡的人的房间里，那么记忆就会以某种方式得到加强。

Do I have that correct?

我说的对吗？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

There's nothing wrong.

没有什么问题。

I've said it before, I'll say it again, nothing wrong with your memory.

我已经说过了，我再说一遍，你的记忆没有问题。

That was one of the seminal papers that started this whole movement, and what they did was they had them learn this kind of paired-associate card test.

这是引发整个运动的开创性论文之一，他们所做的就是让他们学习这种配对关联卡测试。

But they were wearing this mask, almost looks like a fighter pilot mask.

但他们戴着这个面具，看起来几乎就像战斗机飞行员的面具。

And they were either puffing up inert air that didn't smell at all, or they were perfusing this very pleasant rose scent.

它们要么喷出一点味道都没有的惰性空气，要么散发出令人愉悦的玫瑰香味。

Because smell in particular has a very unique relationship with our memory, in part because we emerged from animals that would principally use smell as their navigational tool.

因为气味与我们的记忆有着非常独特的关系，部分原因是我们来自主要使用气味作为导航工具的动物。

I think everyone has had this experience where you bond a certain cologne or a certain perfume with a particular individual.

我想每个人都有过这样的经历，将某种古龙水或某种香水与某个特定的人联系在一起。

So they were puffing the rose perfume up the nose of these participants, and then when they went into sleep, they started to reperfuse that rose odor.

因此，他们将玫瑰香水喷到这些参与者的鼻子里，然后当他们入睡时，他们开始重新注入玫瑰气味。

Now, what was clever also about the experiment, you could say, well, look, just any time you get something that smells puffed up your nose, your memory is going to be better.

现在，这个实验的巧妙之处在于，你可以说，好吧，看，只要你鼻子里闻到某种气味，你的记忆力就会更好。

Now, the initial experiment had them learning the information when they're awake with the rose scent getting pushed up the nose, and then when they slept, they had the rose odor again.

现在，最初的实验让他们在清醒时学习信息，玫瑰气味被推到鼻子上，然后当他们睡觉时，他们再次闻到玫瑰气味。

Another group had learning, but they had no rose smell pushed up their nose to bond with the information at the time of learning when they were awake.

另一组进行了学习，但当他们醒着时，他们的鼻子里没有玫瑰气味来与学习时的信息联系起来。

And then when they slept, they also had rose odor stuffed up their nose, and they showed no additional benefit.

然后当他们睡觉的时候，他们的鼻子里也充满了玫瑰的气味，而且没有表现出额外的好处。

So it's not just enough to have rose odor at night.

所以仅仅晚上有玫瑰香味是不够的。

You need to have made the initial bonded familiar connection with the novel information that you're learning to get the subsequent targeted memory reactivation benefit.

您需要与正在学习的新信息建立起最初的熟悉联系，才能获得随后有针对性的记忆重新激活的好处。

And you could then think, well, practical tools, what should I do?

然后你可以想，嗯，实用的工具，我应该做什么？

Maybe when I'm learning for studying for a test, I should blaze up my most preferred incense.

也许当我学习备考的时候，我应该点燃我最喜欢的香。

And I have a particular proclivity to green tea incense, it turns out.

事实证明，我对绿茶香有一种特殊的倾向。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Hmm.

嗯。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And maybe then before I go to bed at night, I get a couple of sticks and I blaze them back up, put my head on the pillow, turn the light out.

也许晚上睡觉前，我会拿几根棍子，然后把它们点燃，把头放在枕头上，关掉灯。

However, do not do that because it's probably a desperate fire hazard.

但是，请勿这样做，因为这可能会引发严重的火灾。

So do not listen to me, but you could think about doing something along those lines, perhaps.

所以不要听我的，但你也许可以考虑按照这些思路做一些事情。

Anyway, so that's targeted memory reactivation.

无论如何，这就是有针对性的记忆重新激活。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

It's a perfect segue for what I wanted to talk about next, which is lucid dreaming.

这是我接下来要谈论的“清醒梦”的完美延续。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But before we move to lucid dreaming, I'm wondering whether or not there's an opportunity here to construct an experiment, maybe even a protocol of sorts, to uncouple the negative experience of nightmares to our daily experience.

但在我们转向清醒梦之前，我想知道是否有机会构建一个实验，甚至可能是某种协议，将噩梦的负面体验与我们的日常体验分开。

So for instance, we're talking about paired association based on odors or sounds replayed in sleep to sort of nudge or conjure particular daytime memories to the surface in the form of dream sleep.

例如，我们谈论的是基于睡眠中重播的气味或声音的配对关联，以某种形式推动或召唤特定的白天记忆，以梦境睡眠的形式浮现出来。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But we also know that one can uncouple associations.

但我们也知道，人们可以解除关联。

So for instance, if one experienced something negative, and maybe this is being attempted in the realm of trauma therapy, and that experience was paired with a particular odor, it'd be hard to do with visual cues in sleep, or sound.

举例来说，如果一个人经历了一些负面的事情，也许这是在创伤治疗领域中尝试的，并且这种经历与一种特定的气味配对，那么就很难用睡眠中的视觉线索或声音来处理。

Could one attempt to introduce a sort of a competing sound, set up a sort of a collision-

是否可以尝试引入一种竞争性的声音，建立一种碰撞——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

stimulus so that in sleep, the dream would no longer contain the scary content, or it would be less scary.

刺激，这样在睡眠中，梦就不再包含可怕的内容，或者不那么可怕了。

Or is this exactly the wrong approach?

或者这完全是错误的做法？

Because if we believe that the nightmares are serving some functional purpose, allowing us to work through and-

因为如果我们相信噩梦有某种功能性的目的，让我们能够解决问题并且——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

What you really don't want to do.

你真的不想做的事。

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Okay, great.

好的，太好了。

Then we answered the question.

然后我们回答了问题。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Well, no.

嗯，不。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

I think it's unclear right now, but you're on the right line because there is something that we have in learning and memory called fear extinction.

我认为现在还不清楚，但你是对的，因为我们在学习和记忆中存在一种叫做恐惧消退的东西。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And let's say that I were to sort of classic Pavlovian learning, Pavlov's dogs.

假设我要学习经典的巴甫洛夫学问，巴甫洛夫的狗。

Let's say I show you a specific image on the screen, and then you hear a specific tone, and then you get an electric shock.

假设我在屏幕上向您展示特定图像，然后您听到特定的音调，然后您就会受到电击。

I show you the stimulus on the screen, you hear the specific tone, and then you get an electrical shock.

我向你展示屏幕上的刺激，你听到特定的音调，然后你就会受到电击。

Then I don't show you the stimulus on the screen, but you do still hear the tone, and then what happens is that you have a braced response to the electrical shock.

然后我不会在屏幕上向你显示刺激，但你仍然听到声音，然后发生的事情是你对电击有一个稳定的反应。

And there's all sorts of combinations in between of that.

这之间还有各种各样的组合。

But essentially, I condition you to learn that these things seem to be associated with a negative outcome.

但本质上，我要求你知道这些事情似乎与负面结果有关。

The inverse being the Pavlovian dog, which is that you ring a bell, you show the dog some food, and it salivates.

相反的是巴甫洛夫狗，就是你摇响铃，给狗一些食物，它就会流口水。

You ring the bell, show the dog some food, and it salivates.

你按响铃，给狗一些食物，它就会流口水。

And then you ring the bell, you don't give it some food, and it still salivates because it knows that the bell precedes the meat being shown.

然后你按响铃，你不给它一些食物，它仍然流口水，因为它知道铃声先于肉被展示。

And I actually mixed my order around there in my own experiment to begin with.

事实上，我一开始就在自己的实验中混合了我的订单。

But then there's something different that you can do.

但你还可以做一些不同的事情。

You can start to perhaps change the sound or the bonded connection, and then you don't start getting the shock anymore.

您可以开始改变声音或粘合连接，然后您就不会再感到震惊了。

So that same ringing of the bell now is no longer consistently associated with the food, and gradually, you decondition the dog such that after some time, it learns, "Oh, I started to learn that the bell predicted food, but now it no longer does." And it takes some time to remove that, and that's what we call extinction.

因此，同样的铃声现在不再始终与食物相关联，逐渐地，你会解除狗的状态，这样过了一段时间，它就会学会，“哦，我开始了解到铃声可以预测食物，但现在它不再能预测食物了。”消除它需要一些时间，这就是我们所说的灭绝。

You've induced an association, and then you gradually extinguish it by way of that alternate training method.

你已经诱发了一种关联，然后你通过另一种训练方法逐渐消除它。

So the question then became, could we use that type of method, but during sleep?

那么问题就变成了，我们可以在睡眠期间使用这种方法吗？

Could we train you up on a fear memory and then just begin the early signs of extinguishing, of deconditioning you?

我们可以训练你的恐惧记忆，然后开始消除你的恐惧记忆，让你失去适应的早期迹象吗？

But then we don't do that very much.

但我们并不经常这样做。

We wait until sleep, and we continue the deconditioning protocol.

我们等到睡觉，然后继续去调理方案。

And sure enough, sleep seems to be as if not more effective at extinguishing those fear memories than when you enact the protocol during wakefulness.

果然，睡眠在消除这些恐惧记忆方面似乎并不比在清醒时执行该协议更有效。

So here is a very good example of where you can use this sleep-dependent memory processing tapestry, this opportunity to harness, not just to strengthen memories that you wish to keep, but start to extinguish memories you wish to remove.

因此，这是一个很好的例子，说明您可以在哪里使用这种依赖于睡眠的记忆处理挂毯，利用这个机会，不仅可以加强您希望保留的记忆，还可以开始消除您希望删除的记忆。

And so I think it's very exciting.

所以我认为这非常令人兴奋。

It's right on the cusp of what we're starting to do right now, but...

这正是我们现在开始做的事情的风口浪尖，但是......

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love it because I think some people would like to experience certain dreams, and other people would like to not experience certain nightmares, which reminds me of a tool that Rick Rubin taught me.

我喜欢它，因为我认为有些人喜欢经历某些梦，而另一些人则不想经历某些噩梦，这让我想起了 Rick Rubin 教我的一个工具。

I don't know of any experiments that support this directly, but I've tried this, and it certainly has worked first time and every time, which is Rick said if you wake up from a dream and you want to remember your dream and/or you found it pleasant or interesting, lay there completely still with your eyes closed, and it will come to you.

我不知道有什么实验可以直接支持这一点，但我已经尝试过了，而且它确实第一次和每次都有效，这是里克说的，如果你从梦中醒来，你想记住你的梦和/或你发现它愉快或有趣，闭上眼睛完全静止地躺在那里，它就会来到你身边。

Whereas if you wake up from a nightmare, which many people do, and in a state of anxiety, and you have a hard time kind of shaking the disturbing affect associated with that nightmare, to move your body.

然而，如果你从噩梦中醒来（很多人都会这样做），并且处于焦虑状态，并且你很难摆脱与噩梦相关的令人不安的影响，也很难移动你的身体。

Get up and move your body and maybe even flip some lights on, something that normally I don't suggest in the middle of the night.

站起来活动一下身体，甚至打开一些灯，通常我不建议在半夜这样做。

But waking up from a nightmare can be quite disturbing, and it can be disturbing enough that it makes it difficult to fall back asleep.

但从噩梦中醒来可能会非常令人不安，而且可能会令人难以入睡。

So-

所以——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And by the way, he's right.

顺便说一句，他是对的。

I don't know if he's read the science or it's he's just-- Knowing Rick, he's probably just because he's so Yoda-like, he's probably intuited-

我不知道他是否读过科学，或者他只是——了解瑞克，他可能只是因为他太像尤达了，他可能有直觉——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, his supernatural levels of insight

是的，他超自然的洞察力

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

...

tens of thousands of scientific articles.

数以万计的科学文章。

But he's absolutely right.

但他是绝对正确的。

One of the ways, if you really wish to remember your dreams, is not just jump up out of bed and start trying to write them down.

如果你真的想记住你的梦，方法之一不仅仅是从床上跳起来并开始尝试把它们写下来。

Don't.

不。

Lie in bed, keep your eyes closed, and gradually rehearse that dream over and over in your mind, almost as though you're scoring it into the etched surface of your memory trace more and more.

躺在床上，闭上眼睛，逐渐在脑海中一遍又一遍地演练那个梦，就好像你正在将它越来越多地刻在记忆痕迹的蚀刻表面上。

And gradually, when you've re sort of capitulated and pieced back the jigsaw puzzle, then gradually open your eyes, start to dictate, start to write down.

逐渐地，当你重新投降并拼凑拼图时，然后逐渐睁开你的眼睛，开始听写，开始写下来。

But don't do it immediately, because as soon as you start doing it, it begins to float away.

但不要立即这样做，因为一旦你开始这样做，它就开始飘走。

It begins to dissolve in a way that's you're running and you're trying to reach your hand out-

当你奔跑并试图伸出你的手时，它开始消失——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's like vapors

就像水蒸气一样

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

...

to grab them.

抓住他们。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's like fog.

就像雾一样。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Exactly.

正是如此。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This is why I use the voice memos.

这就是我使用语音备忘录的原因。

Last night I woke up in the middle of the night from a dream, and I decided to turn on voice memos, and I remember thinking, "I'll remember this in the morning." And I remember you never remember this in the morning.

昨晚我半夜从梦中醒来，我决定打开语音备忘录，我记得我在想，“我早上会记住这一点。”我记得你早上从来不记得这件事。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Au contra.

反对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That is a perfect segue for lucid dreaming, which is- ...

这是清醒梦的完美延续，那就是——……

the awareness that we are dreaming while in a dream.

在梦中意识到我们正在做梦。

Is lucid dreaming real?

清醒梦是真的吗？

Can we train ourselves to lucid dream?

我们可以训练自己进入清醒梦吗？

And what is the value of lucid dreaming?

清醒梦的价值是什么？

Is it just a fun game we can play?

这只是我们可以玩的一个有趣的游戏吗？

Is there any reason we should attempt to lucid dream if we don't already, or encourage more lucid dreaming?

如果我们还没有尝试做清醒梦，或者鼓励更多的清醒梦，我们有什么理由应该尝试做清醒梦呢？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Or even any reason we shouldn't perhaps.

或者甚至是我们不应该这样做的任何原因。

Lucid dreaming, you beautifully gave the definition.

清醒梦，你完美地给出了定义。

Loosely defined, lucid dreaming is that you simply know that you're dreaming whilst you are dreaming.

松散定义的清醒梦是指当你在做梦的时候你就知道你在做梦。

So, in other words, as the dream is unfolding, you gain awareness of, "Ah, this is a dream, but I'm still dreaming." At that moment, by science definition, you are in a state of lucidity.

所以，换句话说，当梦展开时，你会意识到，“啊，这是一个梦，但我仍在做梦。”在那一刻，根据科学的定义，你处于清醒状态。

But most people don't really mean that when they say, "Oh, I'm a lucid dreamer." They mean, "Yes, I become aware that I'm dreaming as I am dreaming, and then I take over the reins of control," and then starting to decide exactly what it is you dream and how you dream.

但大多数人在说“哦，我是一个清醒梦者”时，并不是真的这么想。他们的意思是，“是的，我意识到我在做梦，就像我在做梦一样，然后我接管了控制权，”然后开始准确地决定你的梦想是什么以及你如何做梦。

So now I'm on the ground and I'm walking through a park, and I decide that I just want to take off and I want to fly over the river, or I want to fly out over San Francisco Bay and take a tour.

所以现在我在地面上，正在穿过一个公园，我决定只是想起飞，飞过河流，或者我想飞过旧金山湾并进行游览。

So I decide to start flying.

所以我决定开始飞行。

That is what most people think of as lucid dreaming.

这就是大多数人认为的清醒梦。

If you were to think about it, this thing called dreaming, as we've described, is utterly absurd as a state, based on its psychotic kind of nature and characteristics.

如果你想一想，正如我们所描述的，这种称为梦的东西作为一种状态是完全荒谬的，基于其精神病的性质和特征。

To then start to say, it's that idiotic and strange and bizarre, but PS, I can also take control of it and decide what I want to do with it, injects a whole dose of disbelief into a process that's already unbelievable by itself.

然后开始说，这是那么愚蠢、奇怪和怪异，但是 PS，我也可以控制它并决定我想用它做什么，将一剂怀疑注入到一个本身就已经令人难以置信的过程中。

So science for a while just thought, this is charlatan-type stuff, that these people claim that they can control their dreams.

所以科学界一度认为，这是骗子式的东西，这些人声称他们可以控制自己的梦想。

How can you ever prove that?

你怎么能证明这一点呢？

Because don't forget, when you go into REM sleep and you dream, you are paralyzed.

因为不要忘记，当您进入快速眼动睡眠并做梦时，您就会瘫痪。

So I can't just wake up and say, "I was lucid dreaming." That's not proof.

所以我不能只是醒来后说：“我做了清醒梦。”那不是证据。

I have to, in some ways, be able to demonstrate that I'm lucid dreaming as I begin to become lucid, but I can't, because I can't communicate with you as the scientist.

在某些方面，当我开始变得清醒时，我必须能够证明我正在进行清醒梦，但我不能，因为我无法作为科学家与你交流。

Well, it turns out that you can.

好吧，事实证明你可以。

One of the things we spoke about in the first episode is that, yes, you get these rapid eye movements, but think about what that means.

我们在第一集中谈到的一件事是，是的，你会看到这些快速的眼球运动，但想想这意味着什么。

I told you that when you dream, your brain paralyzes all of your voluntary muscles so that you can dream and dream safely, and you don't act out your dreams.

我告诉过你，当你做梦的时候，你的大脑会麻痹你所有的随意肌，这样你才能安全地做梦、做梦，而不会把你的梦付诸行动。

With the exception that at least two muscle groups, your extraocular muscles that move your eyes and your inner ear muscles, for some reason, they are spared from the paralysis, so you can still move.

除了至少两个肌肉群，即移动眼睛的眼外肌和内耳肌肉，由于某种原因，它们没有瘫痪，所以你仍然可以移动。

Otherwise, you could never have rapid eye movements.

否则，你永远不可能有快速的眼球运动。

So the eyes all of a sudden, because we have electrodes up top and below, and left and right sides, we can measure what you're doing with your eyes during sleep.

所以突然间眼睛，因为我们在顶部和底部以及左侧和右侧都有电极，我们可以测量您在睡眠期间用眼睛所做的事情。

In fact, we have to do this to determine, are you awake or are you in REM sleep?

事实上，我们必须这样做才能确定，您是清醒的还是处于快速眼动睡眠状态？

The brain activity by itself doesn't tell us that.

大脑活动本身并没有告诉我们这一点。

We measure your muscle activity, and if you lose muscle activity and your brain is very active, and the eye channels that we're recording start to show these darting back-and-forth signals, we know you're in REM sleep.

我们测量您的肌肉活动，如果您失去肌肉活动而您的大脑非常活跃，并且我们记录的眼部通道开始显示这些来回的信号，我们就知道您处于快速眼动睡眠中。

That's how we define it.

这就是我们定义它的方式。

So that then suggested to us we can use the eye movements to create a form of Morse code signaling from the participant to the experimenter.

因此，这向我们建议我们可以使用眼球运动来创建一种从参与者到实验者的莫尔斯电码信号形式。

And so let's say that with this claimed lucid dreamer who comes to my sleep center, we'll create a very specific agreed-upon code, which is that as you start dreaming, I can see that, and when you become lucid in that dream, firstly, give me three leftward flicks of your eyes.

因此，假设这个声称是清醒梦的人来到我的睡眠中心，我们将创建一个非常具体的商定代码，即当你开始做梦时，我可以看到这一点，当你在那个梦中变得清醒时，首先，给我你的眼睛向左眨三下。

We never see that in dreaming.

我们在梦中从来没有看到过这一点。

It's a very deliberative act.

这是一个非常深思熟虑的行为。

And then when you say, "Okay, I've started the lucid dreaming," and you've agreed with the experimenter that you're then going to start moving your hands.

然后当你说，“好吧，我已经开始了清醒梦”，并且你同意实验者的观点，然后你将开始移动你的手。

You're going to start to move your right hand.

你将开始移动你的右手。

Well, when you start to move your right hand, give me four flicks to the right, and when you're moving your left hand in the dream, give me four flicks to the left.

好吧，当你开始移动你的右手时，给我向右弹四下，当你在梦中移动你的左手时，给我向左弹四下。

And so there we create this very specific instigational code.

因此，我们创建了这个非常具体的煽动代码。

But then how does that help us?

但这对我们有什么帮助呢？

Well, we can have you sleeping in a brain scanner, and before the brain scanning session when you sleep, I have you just go into the brain scanner awake, and I say, "Move your left hand," and your right motor cortex is going to be lighting up.

好吧，我们可以让你在大脑扫描仪中睡觉，在你睡觉时进行大脑扫描之前，我让你清醒地进入大脑扫描仪，然后我说，“移动你的左手”，你的右运动皮层就会亮起来。

And then I'm going to say, "Move your right hand," and your left motor cortex is going to be lighting up.

然后我会说，“移动你的右手”，你的左运动皮层就会亮起来。

And for you and me, I build up a very unique map of your left hand motor memory representation and your right hand motor memory representation.

对于你和我，我为你的左手运动记忆表示和右手运动记忆表示建立了一个非常独特的地图。

And if it's the left hand, as I said, it's the right side of the brain.

正如我所说，如果是左手，那就是大脑的右侧。

If it's the right hand, it's the left side of the brain.

如果是右手，那就是左脑。

So now I've got ground truth as to where your hand representation is on your motor cortex in my brain scanner.

所以现在我已经在我的大脑扫描仪中得到了关于你的手代表在你的运动皮层上的位置的基本事实。

And then I'm going to put you back in the brain scanner, let you go into sleep, let you start dreaming.

然后我会把你放回大脑扫描仪中，让你进入睡眠状态，让你开始做梦。

Then you give me three left flicks.

然后你给我左击三下。

Good.

好的。

This person has now become lucid.

这个人现在已经清醒了。

And now he's doing four rightward flicks, which means he's clasping his right hand over and over again.

现在他向右轻弹了四次，这意味着他一次又一次地紧握右手。

And then he gives me four leftward flicks, which means he switched over.

然后他向左轻弹了四下，这意味着他换了位置。

He's now using his left hand in his dream.

他现在在梦中使用左手。

By the way, I'm looking at the participant inside of the brain scanner through the glass, and of course, they're not moving their hand.

顺便说一句，我透过玻璃观察大脑扫描仪内部的参与者，当然，他们的手没有移动。

Why?

为什么？

Because they're paralyzed But in the dream, they are claiming, based on their eye movements, that they are moving their hands.

因为他们瘫痪了，但在梦中，他们声称，根据他们的眼球运动，他们正在移动他们的手。

We bring them back out of the brain scanner, and we analyze their brain scans during the period when they said, "I'm moving my right hand.

我们将他们从脑部扫描仪中带出来，并在他们说“我正在移动我的右手”期间分析他们的脑部扫描。

I'm moving my left hand." What did we see?

我要动动我的左手。”我们看到了什么？

Sure enough, we saw the same, and we being the royal we, it's a great study by a German group.

果然，我们看到了同样的情况，而且我们是皇室成员，这是德国团体的一项伟大研究。

Sure enough, you see exactly the same pattern.

果然，您看到了完全相同的模式。

It was scientific ground truth evidence that when a lucid dreamer claims they are doing something in the dream, the brain scans that we received confirmed that indeed, that's exactly what was happening.

这是科学的事实证据，表明当清醒梦者声称他们在梦中做某事时，我们收到的大脑扫描证实，这确实是正在发生的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's just that none of the signal is being sent out to the periphery, to the limbs, because there's that-

只是没有任何信号被发送到外围、四肢，因为——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Cuts off at the spinal cord

切断脊髓

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

that descending inhibition.

那种下降的抑制作用。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

At the level of the alpha motor neurons of your spinal cord.

在脊髓的α运动神经元水平。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Incredible.

难以置信。

So here we are talking about lucid dreaming, which is a kind of mixed level of consciousness.

所以这里我们谈论的是清醒梦，这是一种混合的意识层次。

Dreaming, of course, but also lucidity, that is an awareness that one is dreaming.

当然，做梦还包括清醒，即意识到自己正在做梦。

Now, in just about every one of the five episodes leading up to this sixth episode in this series, you emphasize the key importance of deep sleep and rapid eye movement sleep, and in many ways, some of the problems that arise from waking up in the middle of the night too many times or being in shallow sleep as opposed to deep sleep.

现在，在本系列第六集之前的五集中，您几乎每一集都强调了深度睡眠和快速动眼睡眠的重要性，并且在很多方面强调了由于半夜醒来次数过多或处于浅睡眠而不是深度睡眠而产生的一些问题。

Lucid dreaming, it seems, is a kind of a case of light sleep because of one's awareness, or is it?

清醒梦似乎是一种由于人的意识而进入浅睡眠的情况，是吗？

So that's the first question, and then just very quickly, an anecdote.

这是第一个问题，然后很快就是一个轶事。

When I was a kid, I used to read these Boy's Life magazines and those kind of things.

当我还是个孩子的时候，我经常读《男孩的生活》杂志之类的东西。

I forget what they're called, but in the back, they would have these ads for products like X-ray glasses or-

我忘记它们叫什么了，但在后面，他们会有这些产品的广告，例如 X 射线眼镜或-

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

or sea monkeys, which turned out to be brine shrimp.

或海猴，原来是丰年虾。

What a disappointment that was.

那是多么令人失望啊。

And I thought they were monkeys.

我以为他们是猴子。

On the package, they were little monkeys, but they were brine shrimp.

包装上写的是小猴子，其实是丰年虾。

There was a product advertised that I, in fact, purchased, which was an eye mask that had a little blinking red light in one corner, and it said, "Learn to lucid dream." And the idea was that you would put this thing on and look at the red light just prior to going to sleep, and then you'd go to sleep with this thing on, and then at some point in your sleep, you would see or think that you saw the red light flashing, and the idea was that because you were in the eye mask, you were in enough of a dream that you would be able to link the waking state recognition of the light, et cetera.

事实上，我购买了一种广告产品，它是一种眼罩，在一个角落里有一点闪烁的红灯，上面写着“学习清醒梦”。这个想法是，你会在睡觉前戴上这个东西并看着红灯，然后你会带着这个东西入睡，然后在你睡眠中的某个时刻，你会看到或认为你看到红灯闪烁，这个想法是因为你在眼罩中，你处于足够的梦境中，你将能够链接到清醒状态下对光的识别，等等。

It's okay.

没关系。

People get it.

人们明白了。

I purchased that product.

我购买了该产品。

I used it.

我用过。

I thought perhaps there was an "effect" where I could lucid dream, but I wouldn't consider myself an avid lucid dreamer, although sometimes I am aware that I'm dreaming, and usually it's in pleasant dreams, in which case I'm usually like, "Yeah, let's keep this going."

我想也许有一种“效果”让我可以做清醒梦，但我不认为自己是一个狂热的清醒梦者，尽管有时我意识到我在做梦，而且通常是在愉快的梦中，在这种情况下我通常会说，“是的，让我们继续做下去。”

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Things like flying and being particularly talented in a sport that in my waking life I have-

比如飞行，以及在我醒着的生活中在一项运动中特别有天赋——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Best at my best

尽我所能做到最好

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

minimal talent.

最少的天赋。

Things like that.

诸如此类的事情。

Okay, so is lucid dreaming a case of shallow sleep and therefore something to avoid, or is lucid dreaming something quite different, and is there any advantage to learning to lucid dream or enhancing one's amount of lucid dreaming, and if so, how should one go about that?

好吧，那么清醒梦是一种浅度睡眠的情况，因此需要避免，或者清醒梦是一种完全不同的东西，学习清醒梦或提高清醒梦的数量有什么好处吗？如果有的话，人们应该如何做呢？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

So I'll take the question, should you be lucid dreaming?

那么我就问一个问题，你应该做清醒梦吗？

And I think I can argue it both sides right now, and we don't have a very clear answer yet.

我想我现在可以对双方进行争论，但我们还没有一个非常明确的答案。

The first side is if you take a step back and ask from an evolutionary perspective, let's assume for want of a better word, that lucid dreaming is helpful, it's meaningful, and that we should engage in it.

第一个方面是，如果你退后一步，从进化的角度来问，让我们假设没有更好的词，清醒梦是有帮助的，它是有意义的，我们应该参与它。

If that's the case, that it confers some type of evolutionary benefit, then you would expect that a lot of people would be doing it.

如果是这样的话，它会带来某种类型的进化益处，那么你会期望很多人会这样做。

But if you look at the statistics, somewhere between maybe just 10 to 20% of the population are natural lucid dreamers.

但如果你看一下统计数据，可能只有 10% 到 20% 的人是天生的清醒梦者。

And so from an evolutionary perspective, I could say, well, if it was so powerful, it was so meaningful, because we know everyone sleeps, and for the most part, we can say that almost everyone dreams.

因此，从进化的角度来看，我可以说，如果它如此强大，那就太有意义了，因为我们知道每个人都会睡觉，而且在大多数情况下，我们可以说几乎每个人都会做梦。

If that's the case, then those must clearly serve a purpose.

如果是这样的话，那么这些肯定是有目的的。

But the fact that very few people are lucid dreamers, doesn't that tell us that it isn't necessarily beneficial?

但事实上，很少有人是清醒梦者，这难道不告诉我们，这不一定有益吗？

So from that perspective, I can play those numbers.

所以从这个角度来看，我可以玩这些数字。

There is an inherent flaw in my argument there, however, because that assumes, based on the argument I've just given you, that we have stopped evolving, and of course, we have not.

然而，我的论点存在一个固有的缺陷，因为根据我刚才给你的论点，它假设我们已经停止进化，当然，我们没有。

And so perhaps that 10 to 20% of the population who are natural lucid dreamers are at the forefront of hominid evolution, and they're the next super race.

因此，也许 10% 到 20% 的人口天生具有清醒梦，处于原始人类进化的最前沿，他们是下一个超级种族。

We shouldn't be worried about AI.

我们不应该担心人工智能。

We should be worried about the lucid dreamers because they're going to come and take over the world.

我们应该担心清醒梦者，因为他们会来接管世界。

So I can argue it from that perspective, which is just a philosophical argument.

所以我可以从这个角度来论证，这只是一个哲学论证。

It doesn't have weighted data to it.

它没有加权数据。

But there is some data.

但有一些数据。

Some individuals have asked the question, is there any changes to your sleep or even the benefits of sleep when you are a lucid dreamer versus not?

有些人问过这样的问题，当你是清醒梦者时，你的睡眠是否有任何变化，甚至睡眠有什么好处？

And what's interesting is that for some papers that have been published, after nights when people report lucid dreaming, they wake up, and they don't feel as restored.

有趣的是，对于一些已发表的论文来说，在人们报告清醒梦的夜晚之后，他们醒来后，感觉并没有恢复。

They don't feel as refreshed by their sleep in the morning, suggesting just as you sort of hinted at there, that the lucid dreaming state is associated with perhaps a less deep or more shallow form of REM sleep, or a more active state of REM sleep, perhaps too active, so that it's fatiguing and depleting, and upon awakening, you don't get that memory and that brain and body reset.

他们在早上的睡眠中感觉不那么神清气爽，这表明正如你在那里暗示的那样，清醒梦状态可能与较浅或较浅的快速眼动睡眠形式有关，或者与较活跃的快速眼动睡眠状态有关，可能过于活跃，因此会感到疲劳和耗尽，醒来后，你不会获得那种记忆，大脑和身体也不会重置。

There are, however, a few papers that have not found that result.

然而，有一些论文没有发现这个结果。

So I think right now we don't truly know if the lucid state is associated with unrefreshing sleep and unrestorative sleep.

所以我认为现在我们并不真正知道清醒状态是否与无法恢复活力的睡眠和无法恢复活力的睡眠有关。

But if that proves true, then I think that that's one argument.

但如果这被证明是正确的，那么我认为这就是一个论点。

The other argument I would put forward against it from that perspective would be, think about what we've said regarding the functions of dreaming, memory processing, but particularly emotional therapy to gift us mental health.

我从这个角度提出反对它的另一个论点是，想想我们所说的关于梦、记忆处理的功能，特别是情感治疗，以赋予我们心理健康。

If we then come along and say presumably, nature through millions of years of evolution has come up with this blueprint manifesto of exactly what should be served up on the dream menu this evening.

如果我们随后说，大概大自然经过数百万年的进化已经想出了这份蓝图宣言，准确说明今晚梦想菜单上应该提供什么。

There's a reason for that, and that reason has been sculpted over millions of years to become wonderfully optimal for us and our emotional mental health.

这是有原因的，这个原因已经经过数百万年的塑造，变得非常适合我们和我们的情感心理健康。

And then we come along in the space of a lifetime, and perhaps you could argue a little bit humoristically, we think, "Eh, I perhaps know a little bit better than a couple of million years of evolution.

然后我们在一生的时间里出现，也许你可以幽默地争论一下，我们想，“呃，我可能比几百万年的进化更了解一点。

I'm going to push those things off the rank ordering chart of what gets served up into my dreams, and I'm going to supersede that and decide what I would prefer to be dreaming about." And again, I think that there's no good evidence that you could argue that that isn't true, but equally that it is true.

我将把这些东西从我梦想中的排名顺序表中剔除，然后我将取代它并决定我更喜欢梦想什么。”再说一遍，我认为没有充分的证据表明你可以说这不是真的，但同样也可以说这是真的。

We just don't know yet.

我们只是还不知道。

If that is the case that lucid dreaming does produce unrestorative sleep, in some ways it also begs the question, well, what is happening in your brain during lucid dreaming?

如果清醒梦确实会导致无法恢复的睡眠，那么在某些方面它也引出了一个问题，那么，在清醒梦期间你的大脑中发生了什么？

Is there anything in your brain that would explain why you don't feel refreshed?

你的大脑中有什么东西可以解释为什么你感觉不精神焕发吗？

And early studies looking at lucid dreamers when we put them inside of a brain scanner, I told you at the start of this episode, dream sleep has a unique brain signature.

当我们将清醒梦者放入大脑扫描仪中时，早期研究会观察他们，我在本集开始时告诉过你，梦境睡眠具有独特的大脑特征。

Memory regions, emotion regions, motor regions, and visual regions, they're all lighting up.

记忆区域、情感区域、运动区域和视觉区域，它们都亮起来了。

But then there's this one part of your brain that does the opposite, which is the lateral left and right sides of your prefrontal cortex, the logical, rational, thinking, controlling regions of your brain.

但大脑中的一部分却起着相反的作用，即前额叶皮层的左侧和右侧，是大脑的逻辑、理性、思考和控制区域。

Those go offline.

那些都离线了。

But early studies demonstrated that the activity, including the electrical activity over those frontal regions, would be down as you were in non-lucid dreaming.

但早期研究表明，当你处于非清醒梦中时，这些活动，包括额叶区域的电活动，会下降。

But then when people rise back up and said, "Now I'm lucid dreaming with those leftward flicks," that activity was brought back online, which makes a lot of mechanistic sense, which is all of a sudden, the part of your brain that prevented you from having rational, logical control has been reengaged, and as a consequence, you yourself can reengage in volitional dictation of the outcome of what you're dreaming.

但当人们站起来说，“现在我在做那些向左轻弹的清醒梦”时，这种活动又重新回到网上，这具有很大的机械意义，突然之间，你大脑中阻止你进行理性、逻辑控制的部分被重新启动，结果，你自己可以重新以意志方式决定你梦到的结果。

Some studies, however, have not replicated that finding because when they looked at it and they took out some sort of what we call these covariates or these confounding factors, and I can bore you with what that principally is, it removed that result, and all of a sudden, the prefrontal cortex went back to seemingly being non-active.

然而，一些研究并没有重复这一发现，因为当他们观察它时，他们取出了某种我们所说的协变量或混杂因素，我可以告诉你主要是什么，它消除了结果，突然间，前额叶皮层又回到了看似不活跃的状态。

They did find an alternate result.

他们确实找到了替代结果。

What they found is that the electrical activity of the brain when you go into a lucid dreaming state seems to be a bit more frenetic, a bit more active versus non-lucid dreaming states of electrical brain activity.

他们发现，当你进入清醒梦状态时，大脑的电活动似乎比非清醒梦状态的大脑电活动更加疯狂、更加活跃。

And if that's the case, if the cortex, which is already active, is forced to become even more frenetically active when you are in this lucid dream state, is that part of the reason that when you wake up from the lucid dreaming and you go about your day, your brain just doesn't seem to be at the same operating ability because it's been fatigued above and beyond?

如果是这样的话，当你处于清醒梦状态时，如果已经活跃的皮质被迫变得更加疯狂，这是否是当你从清醒梦中醒来并开始新的一天时，你的大脑似乎没有处于相同的运作能力的部分原因，因为它已经过度疲劳了？

It's like saying I do a standard workout, and I always go to one or two reps before failure.

这就像说我进行了标准锻炼，并且在失败之前我总是会进行一到两次重复。

But now as I'm lucid dreaming, I am constantly going to complete muscle failure.

但现在当我在清醒梦中时，我会不断地出现肌肉完全衰竭的情况。

And then the next few days, if you go and do a workout, and I've been listening, you and I have been trading workouts, I don't want to do an Andrew Huberman workout, trust me.

然后接下来的几天，如果你去锻炼，我一直在听，你和我一直在交换锻炼，我不想做安德鲁·胡伯曼的锻炼，相信我。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, they are not-

哦，他们不是——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

This man is-

这个男人是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mine are short and sweet.

我的又短又甜。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Well, we'll work out at some point together, but it's almost as though then no big surprise that after you do a legs day, if I were to wake you up the next day and say, "You're back doing legs," you'd say, "I can't do that."

好吧，我们会在某个时候一起锻炼，但在你做了一天的腿部训练后，如果我第二天叫醒你并说“你回来做腿部训练”，你会说“我不能那样做”，这几乎就不足为奇了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, not the next day.

是的，不是第二天。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

I'm toast.

我是吐司。

I'm hosed.

我被浇灭了。

My legs are done.

我的腿完成了。

And that's what we think could perhaps explain why you get that fatigue.

我们认为这或许可以解释为什么你会感到疲劳。

Does that make-

这是否使得——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

...

some sense?

有道理吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Makes very good sense.

很有道理。

And in the absence of better language to put to it, I've long thought that one of the best things about sleep is that we are not engaging our frontal cortex that much in sleep.

由于缺乏更好的语言来表达，我一直认为睡眠最好的事情之一就是我们在睡眠中不会过多地使用额叶皮层。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And as we talked about in an earlier episode, the frontal cortex during waking is responsible for things such as the suppression of reflexes.

正如我们在前一集中谈到的，清醒时的额叶皮层负责抑制反射等事情。

It has to do that according to context of a situation.

它必须根据情况的上下文来做到这一点。

It's a lot of work.

这是很多工作。

And the frontal cortex does a great number of other things as well.

额叶皮层还做很多其他事情。

But I think one of the most wonderful things about sleep is that we get release and a break from all of that analysis of duration, path, and outcome.

但我认为睡眠最美妙的事情之一就是我们可以从对持续时间、路径和结果的所有分析中得到释放和休息。

How long is something going to take?

某件事需要多长时间？

What path do I need to take in order to get there?

我需要走什么路才能到达那里？

What's the outcome going to be?

结果会怎样呢？

All that analysis of things past, present, and future, it's work.

所有对过去、现在和未来事物的分析都是工作。

It's mental work.

这是脑力劳动。

And I think that if you tell me, and I think you just did, that lucid dreaming involves any kind of encroachment of ...

我认为，如果你告诉我，我认为你刚刚这样做了，那么清醒梦就会涉及到任何形式的侵犯......

duration, path, outcome type of analysis into my sleep.

对我的睡眠进行持续时间、路径、结果类型的分析。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

My personal preference is going to be to not lucid dream.

我个人的偏好是不做清醒梦。

I'd rather just have very robust, perhaps, dreams of different kinds and try and make sense of them once I wake up.

我宁愿做一些非常强烈的、也许是不同类型的梦，并在醒来后尝试理解它们。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

It's so tempting though, isn't it?

不过，这太诱人了，不是吗？

Because like you, I've had those experiences.

因为和你一样，我也有过这些经历。

I remember an amazing dream where I was snowboarding, and I am a below average snowboarder, and all of a sudden I was just taking jumps, and I was doing all sorts of X Game-

我记得一个奇妙的梦，我在滑雪，我是一个低于平均水平的滑雪板运动员，突然之间我就开始跳跃，我正在做各种 X 游戏 -

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You're Shaun White.

你是肖恩·怀特。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

I was Shaun-

我是肖恩-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah

是啊

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

...

It was unbelievable.

这太令人难以置信了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And I felt so-- And I was so happy in the moment.

我感觉如此——那一刻我非常高兴。

And I remember waking up and just thinking, firstly, I'm sad I'm waking up.

我记得醒来后就想，首先，我很伤心我醒来了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And second, that was sublime.

其次，那是崇高的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And all I want to do tomorrow night is go back, and now I'm going to switch my snowboard out for a dirt bike, and I'm going to do the dirt bike X Games version of it.

明天晚上我想做的就是回去，现在我要把我的滑雪板换成越野车，我要做它的越野车 X Games 版本。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Ugh.

呃。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

I'm going to be doing all sorts of-

我会做各种各样的事——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Ugh

呃

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

...

Superman poses.

超人摆出姿势。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Can't get greedy with Mother Nature.

不能对大自然贪婪。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

I know, I know.

我知道，我知道。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

She body slams you.

她的身体猛烈地撞击你。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

So I get it.

所以我明白了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You know?

你知道吗？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

I know if people out there are enjoying it or wanting to do that.

我知道人们是否喜欢或想要这样做。

And by the way, I didn't answer, I'm so sorry, your red light question, which is, if you wanted to do it, how can you do it if you're not doing it already?

顺便说一句，我很抱歉，我没有回答你的红灯问题，也就是说，如果你想做，如果你还没有这样做，你怎么能做呢？

There are, in fact, two scientific methods that have been developed.

事实上，已经开发出两种科学方法。

One of them actually has a vague whiff of relationship to the light device, although that's one of those things where if a friend sent it to me or a random person said, "Oh, Dr. Walker, I've seen this in the back of a magazine.

其中一个实际上与发光装置有一种模糊的关系，尽管这是一个如果朋友把它寄给我或随机的人说，“哦，沃克博士，我在杂志背面看到这个的事情之一。

Do you think it works?" I would just say, "Please go and spend your $199 on something that is going to be-

你觉得有效吗？”我只想说，“请花你的 199 美元买一些东西——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, I think it was about 11 or 12 years old.

是的，我想大约是11或12岁的时候。

I think it cost something like, I don't know, $10.99 or something, which at the time for me was a lot of money.

我想它的价格大概是，我不知道，10.99 美元之类的，这对当时的我来说是很多钱。

But I had-

但我有——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah, it's like $200 for-

是的，大概是 200 美元——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

a paper route.

一条送纸路线。

I had a paper route back then, and I had a little bit of dispensable income.

那时我有一份送报纸的路，还有一点可支配的收入。

But it was cool because it was probably one of my first experiments.

但这很酷，因为这可能是我的第一个实验。

I've been running experiments since-

从那时起我就一直在进行实验-

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

I was a kid.

我还是个孩子。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But I think self-experimentation can be fun-

但我认为自我实验可以很有趣-

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Oh, it's great

哦，太棒了

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

provided it's safe.

前提是它是安全的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And you can see that.

你可以看到这一点。

But sorry, coming back to your red light.

但抱歉，又回到你的红灯了。

The two methods, one of them is something called the MILD technique, which stands for the Mnemonic Induction of Lucid Dreaming, M-I-L-D.

这两种方法，其中之一是所谓的 MILD 技术，它代表清醒梦的助记归纳法，M-I-L-D。

Mnemonic just meaning a memory-based technique.

助记符只是指一种基于记忆的技术。

Induction, obviously what we're trying to induce something.

归纳，显然我们正在尝试归纳一些东西。

And what is it?

那是什么？

We're trying to induce lucid dreaming.

我们正在尝试诱发清醒梦。

And it's a very simple technique, which is that you consistently rehearse before bed this notion that, "I will remember my dreams, and I will instigate control in my dreams." And you do this.

这是一个非常简单的技巧，就是你在睡觉前不断排练这个概念：“我会记住我的梦，我会在梦中进行控制。”你就这样做。

And it sounds just so hokey and non-scientific.

这听起来很做作而且不科学。

Sure enough, you do this over and over again, the probability that you will lucid dream increases.

果然，你一遍又一遍地这样做，你做清醒梦的概率就会增加。

I think the better one, the maybe the more effective one, is called the reality testing method, and it was probably made famous in a brilliant movie.

我认为更好的，也许更有效的，叫做现实测试方法，它可能在一部精彩的电影中出名。

If you haven't seen it, everyone should watch it.

如果你还没有看过，大家都应该看一下。

It's called Waking Life, and it is an amazing Richard Linklater, the director.

这部电影的名字叫《醒着的生活》，导演是理查德·林克莱特（Richard Linklater）。

Just for the philosophy alone in it, it will blow your mind.

仅仅因为其中的哲学，它就会让你大吃一惊。

It's exceptional.

这很特别。

But it's a beautiful treatise on dreaming and lucid dreaming.

但这是一篇关于梦和清醒梦的精彩论文。

And in that they describe a method where during the waking day, you are constantly, perhaps you can set an alarm, and you're constantly reminded to go over to, let's say, the wall and flip the light switch on and off, on and off, on and off.

他们描述了一种方法，在醒着的日子里，你不断地，也许你可以设置一个闹钟，并且不断地提醒你走到墙上，比如说，打开和关闭电灯开关，打开和关闭，打开和关闭。

And sure enough, what happens?

果然，会发生什么？

The lights go on and off.

灯亮又灭。

Why?

为什么？

Because it's the real world, and it complies, and it's complicit with the laws of physics.

因为这是真实的世界，它符合物理定律。

So you do this time and time again, and you start to train yourself that at unique moments throughout your waking experience, you always go over, and you test some version of reality.

所以你一次又一次地这样做，你开始训练自己，在你清醒的经历中的独特时刻，你总是会过去，并测试现实的某些版本。

Or it could just be, I'm going to press my hand into something solid, and this table is resisting my hand right now as I'm pressing it.

或者也可能是，我要把我的手按到某个坚固的东西上，而当我按下它时，这张桌子正在抵抗我的手。

And I just keep doing that.

我就一直这样做。

And then at some point it becomes routine enough that you start to do that same thing when you are dreaming.

然后在某个时刻，它变得足够平常，以至于你在做梦时开始做同样的事情。

But now when I press my hand against the table or press my hand against the wall, my hand goes straight through the wall.

但现在当我把手按在桌子上或把手按在墙上时，我的手会直接穿过墙。

Or I flip the light switch on and off, and the lights do nothing.

或者我打开和关闭电灯开关，灯却什么也不做。

And all of a sudden, that's my cue to say, "I'm not awake, am I?

突然之间，这是我要说的暗示：“我还没醒，不是吗？

I'm dreaming." And therefore, at that point, I gain lucidity, and it increases the probability.

我在做梦。”因此，在那一点上，我获得了清醒，并且增加了可能性。

So those are the two methods that people have used.

这就是人们使用的两种方法。

And statistically, scientifically, they do seem to have some degree of success.

从统计和科学角度来看，他们似乎确实取得了一定程度的成功。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love it.

我喜欢它。

I personally am going to opt to not encourage lucid dreaming in myself because I'm working on getting my sleep deeper and longer through the night with fewer waking episodes.

我个人会选择不鼓励自己做清醒梦，因为我正在努力让我的睡眠更深、更长，同时减少醒来的次数。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

We will get there.

我们会到达那里。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We will get there.

我们会到达那里。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Do not worry.

别担心。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Using the tools described in the previous and this episode of the series that we're doing here.

使用我们在这里所做的本系列的上一集和本集中描述的工具。

My sleep's been excellent at times, pretty good at other times, and lousy at others, which I think makes me well-qualified to talk about tools for sleep because I feel like I've come at it from every level of performance.

我的睡眠有时很好，有时很好，有时很糟糕，我认为这使我有资格谈论睡眠工具，因为我觉得我已经从各个表现水平上做到了这一点。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Very much.

非常喜欢。

And by the way, shield and sword in hand, I'm right there by your side.

顺便说一句，我手握盾牌和剑，就在你身边。

We'll make it happen, don't worry.

我们会做到的，别担心。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, thank you, truly.

嗯，真的谢谢你。

Okay, so sadly, we are nearing the end of this six-episode series, and here we are in the sixth episode.

好吧，很遗憾，我们即将结束这个六集系列，现在是第六集。

However, last night before leaving the studio, I decided to put out a word on social media, on X, AKA Twitter, and on Instagram, asking people what questions they have about sleep.

然而，昨晚离开工作室之前，我决定在社交媒体、X（又称为 Twitter）和 Instagram 上发表言论，询问人们对睡眠有什么疑问。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I made it very broadband.

我把它做得非常宽带。

I said, "Ask anything you want about sleep.

我说：“关于睡眠你想问什么就问吧。

Matt Walker will Will do his best to answer.

马特·沃克将尽力回答。

And of course, we had thousands and thousands and thousands of questions.

当然，我们有成千上万的问题。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

You did great.

你做得很好。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And we're grateful for-

我们很感激——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Let's push on through till dawn.

让我们一起坚持到天亮吧。

Which completely violates-

这完全违反了——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Sure

当然可以

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

...

every one of the six episodes.

六集的每一集。

No, I'm kidding.

不，我在开玩笑。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They'll benefit.

他们会受益。

We'll struggle.

我们会奋斗。

However, we were able to bin those responses into most frequently asked, most frequently liked, et cetera.

然而，我们能够将这些回复分为最常问的、最常喜欢的等。

And so while we can't ask every question of you, what I thought would be fun and very informative for the listeners is to ask 10 of the most popular questions.

因此，虽然我们无法询问您的每一个问题，但我认为问 10 个最常见的问题对听众来说会很有趣且信息丰富。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Ooh.

哦。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And-

还有——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Fingers on buzzers, no conferring.

手指放在蜂鸣器上，没有商量。

Here we go.

我们开始吧。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And these are questions for which I think there are practical answers.

我认为这些问题都有实际的答案。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And so we'll do this not in rapid-fire Q&A, but in, let's just say, abridged format, and then perhaps we have you back another time to answer more of the questions.

因此，我们不会以快速问答的方式进行，而是以删节的形式进行，然后也许我们会再次邀请您回答更多问题。

Before we get into these questions, I will say that many of the questions that were asked by the audience in those comments were in fact answered in the earlier five episodes of this podcast series with Matt Walker-

在我们讨论这些问题之前，我要说的是，观众在这些评论中提出的许多问题实际上已经在马特·沃克的播客系列的前五集中得到了回答——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Oh, that's great

哦，那太好了

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

as well as the one that we held today on dreams and lucid dreaming.

以及我们今天举行的关于梦和清醒梦的会议。

So if you don't hear the answer to your question here, and you have a burning question, chances are your question was answered in a previous episode, and all of those episodes are timestamped in a lot of detail, so people can navigate quickly to the topics most of interest to them.

因此，如果您在这里没有听到问题的答案，并且您有一个紧迫的问题，那么您的问题很可能在上一集中得到了解答，并且所有这些剧集都带有详细的时间戳，因此人们可以快速导航到他们最感兴趣的主题。

So without further ado, questions from the audience.

那么废话不多说，请观众提问。

First question is about best practices for managing rumination and negative thoughts when trying to fall asleep, meaning if somebody is ruminating and they're having negative thoughts when they're trying to fall asleep, what should they do in order to get past that and fall asleep?

第一个问题是关于在试图入睡时管理沉思和消极想法的最佳实践，这意味着如果有人在沉思并且在试图入睡时出现消极想法，他们应该怎么做才能克服这种想法并入睡？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Short-circuit.

短路。

You need to short-circuit that situation, and the way that you can do that is through a variety of methods.

你需要避免这种情况，而你可以通过多种方法来做到这一点。

There are multiple methods for short-circuiting rumination.

短路思考的方法有多种。

The first I would recommend, and it's something I practice, meditation.

第一个是我推荐的，也是我练习的东西，冥想。

But really all of these that I'll describe are about getting your mind off itself.

但实际上，我将描述的所有这些都是为了让你摆脱思绪本身。

That's the biggest problem regarding anxiety and sleep onset insomnia, which is what I think this person is describing.

这是关于焦虑和入睡失眠的最大问题，我认为这个人正在描述这一点。

So meditation allows you, it's either guided and you're speaking about what you should be doing with your breathing or relaxation, guided meditations.

所以冥想可以让你，它要么是有指导的，你是在谈论你应该如何呼吸或放松，有指导的冥想。

All of those stop your mind from being able to play on itself and go through that Rolodex of anxiety.

所有这些都会阻止你的大脑自行发挥作用并经历焦虑的名片盒。

You can do breathing techniques.

你可以练习呼吸技巧。

You can listen to sleep stories.

您可以听睡眠故事。

You can do your own type of body scan.

您可以进行自己类型的身体扫描。

Anything that you can do, and something we described, which seems to be a quite effective method, is taking yourself on a mental walk.

你能做的任何事情，以及我们所描述的，似乎是一种非常有效的方法，都是让你自己进行一次精神行走。

Close your eyes and a walk that you know intensely well with vivid 4K detail, replicate that to the letter.

闭上眼睛，用生动的 4K 细节进行您非常熟悉的散步，将其复制到字母中。

Left foot on the first step, down the steps, take a right at the driveway, up I go, walk up the hill, look to the left, the bay is out there.

左脚踩第一个台阶，下台阶，在车道上右转，向上走，走上山，向左看，海湾就在那里。

It's 5:00 PM.

现在是下午 5:00。

The sun is starting to set.

太阳开始落山了。

That level of detail, and usually when you do any one of these things, the next thing that you remember is that you're waking up in the morning because you were able to short-circuit.

这种程度的细节，通常当你做其中任何一件事时，你记得的下一件事就是你在早上醒来，因为你能够短路。

That would be the best advice.

这将是最好的建议。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Terrific.

太棒了。

And I must say, the other night, I woke up in the middle of the night and was having a little bit of trouble falling back asleep, and I used this mental walk approach and it worked-

我必须说，那天晚上，我在半夜醒来，很难再入睡，我使用了这种心理行走方法，它起作用了——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Oh, great.

哦，太好了。

Oh, wonderful

哦，太棒了

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

very, very well.

非常非常好。

So thank you.

所以谢谢你。

The next question is, what is the best position to sleep in?

接下来的问题是，什么姿势睡觉最好？

Best body position.

最佳身体姿势。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Best body position is probably the absence of the worst.

最好的身体姿势可能就是没有最差的身体姿势。

That would be your back.

那将是你的背影。

And it's ill-advised mostly for people who snore.

对于打鼾的人来说，这是不明智的。

When you are on your back, the likelihood of you snoring and that airway collapsing entirely, and you having what's called a hypoxic event, where you stop breathing entirely, is significantly higher than if you sleep on your side or on your front.

当您仰卧时，您打鼾、气道完全塌陷以及发生所谓的缺氧事件（完全停止呼吸）的可能性明显高于侧睡或俯睡的情况。

So I would say that for most people, if you know that you don't snore, if your partner says, "I don't hear you snoring," that's partial confirmation that you do not snore.

所以我想说，对于大多数人来说，如果你知道自己不打鼾，如果你的伴侣说：“我没有听到你打鼾”，那就部分确认了你不打鼾。

If you are curious, and everyone should be, everyone should be curious as to whether they snore, I would say download an app, and we can link to it.

如果你好奇，每个人都应该好奇，每个人都应该好奇他们是否打鼾，我会说下载一个应用程序，我们可以链接到它。

I have no affiliation with whatsoever.

我与任何人都没有任何关系。

I pay my money.

我付我的钱。

I think it's pennies on the dollar.

我认为这是一美元的一分钱。

I think it's $2 a month or something, and it is called Snore Lab.

我想每个月 2 美元左右，它的名字叫 Snore Lab。

So the word snore, and then L-A-B.

所以打鼾这个词，然后是 L-A-B。

And you download it, and it's an app, and it is something that you install on your phone, and then you say, "Start recording," and you place your phone face down, and it listens to you all night, and it records your breathing.

你下载它，它是一个应用程序，它是你安装在手机上的东西，然后你说，“开始录音”，然后你把手机面朝下，它会整晚听你说话，记录你的呼吸。

Nothing more.

仅此而已。

Can't know what you're doing or saying.

无法知道你在做什么或在说什么。

Don't worry.

别担心。

There's privacy.

有隐私。

But it assesses your breathing, and then it will show you a distribution of your snoring throughout the night, and it categorizes that snoring from quiet, no snoring, to mild snoring, to moderate, to epic.

但它会评估您的呼吸，然后向您显示整个晚上打鼾的分布情况，并将打鼾分类为从安静、不打鼾、轻度打鼾、中度打鼾到严重打鼾。

And it literally is like a Richter shock, and you will see very clearly if you are snoring or not.

它实际上就像里氏震动，如果你打鼾或不打鼾，你会看得很清楚。

Worse still, and impactful most, is that you can go to those spikes when you are snoring, and you can replay it, and it is quite frightening to hear yourself struggling for breath.

更糟糕的是，影响最大的是，当你打鼾时，你可以去那些尖刺处，你可以重播它，听到自己呼吸困难的声音是相当可怕的。

If you see a confirmation of snoring by way of that Snore Lab, go and see your doctor.

如果您通过打鼾实验室看到打鼾的确认，请去看医生。

That is the best advice.

这是最好的建议。

80% of people who have sleep apnea or snoring or cessation of breathing are undiagnosed right now, and it will take years off your life.

80% 患有睡眠呼吸暂停、打鼾或呼吸停止的人目前尚未确诊，这将导致您的寿命缩短数年。

And when you get treated, it is transformational.

当你接受治疗时，它会发生转变。

Patient once told me, "When I got treated with- With my sleep app device, I felt like I was 10 years younger.

患者曾经告诉我，“当我使用我的睡眠应用设备进行治疗时，我感觉自己年轻了 10 岁。

It was almost as though, and I'll remember it to the day I die, it was almost as though someone came along and wiped a fogged glass clear, and I could finally see.

就好像，我直到死的那一天都会记得，就好像有人走过来，把雾蒙蒙的玻璃擦干净，我终于能看见了。

That was the transformation.

这就是转变。

So my advice is, if you think you are snoring, stay away from back sleeping.

所以我的建议是，如果你认为自己在打鼾，就不要仰睡。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

From sleeping on your back.

从仰睡开始。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

From sleeping on your back.

从仰睡开始。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And even if you don't suspect you are a snorer, just download this app.

即使您不怀疑自己打鼾，也只需下载此应用程序即可。

You get a couple of nights for free.

您可以免费入住几晚。

Just do it for a couple of nights consistently, and then ask.

只需连续几个晚上这样做，然后询问即可。

Also, by the way, if you take onboard alcohol and you have mild snoring, it is very clear, I would be highly surprised if on the nights that you drink, you don't get a significant increase in your score of snoring.

另外，顺便说一句，如果你在飞机上喝酒并且有轻微的打鼾，那么很明显，如果在你喝酒的晚上，你的打鼾分数没有显着增加，我会感到非常惊讶。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Terrific.

太棒了。

The next question is, why does my body wake up at 3:30 a.m., and I'm presuming their mind as well, no matter what time I go to sleep?

下一个问题是，为什么我的身体会在凌晨 3:30 醒来，而且无论我什么时候睡觉，我也会猜测他们的想法？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

So to that question, and we will have spoken about this before, my first response is, how do you know it's 3:30?

对于这个问题，我们之前已经讨论过，我的第一反应是，你怎么知道现在是 3:30？

And their response is, "Because I look at the clock." That's the first problem.

他们的回答是：“因为我看时钟。”这是第一个问题。

Take all clock faces away from your sight when you are sleeping.

当您睡觉时，将所有钟面移开您的视线。

It is only going to reinforce it.

它只会强化它。

The second is that 3:30 can sometimes, or if it's a consistent time, there's no sort of special thing about 3:30, it's just for this person.

第二个是3:30有时可以，或者如果是一致的时间，3:30没有什么特别的，只是针对这个人的。

People wake up at very specific times quite reliably so.

人们非常可靠地在非常特定的时间醒来。

Part of that is because they're going through very reliably timed sleep cycles, and every time we finish a REM sleep period, we wake up, but it's normally very brief, and the reason is because we've been in paralysis and the body needs to move.

部分原因是因为他们正在经历非常可靠的定时睡眠周期，每次我们完成快速眼动睡眠期时，我们就会醒来，但通常很短暂，原因是我们一直处于瘫痪状态，身体需要移动。

So we wake up, we make a postural shift, we move in our bed just slightly, and then we go back to sleep.

所以我们醒来，改变姿势，在床上稍微移动一下，然后再回去睡觉。

It happens to us all.

这发生在我们所有人身上。

For some of us, we will wake up, and then we will stay awake, and that's why it seems to be so religiously timed to certain specific moments in our night.

对于我们中的一些人来说，我们会醒来，然后我们会保持清醒，这就是为什么它似乎如此虔诚地定时在我们晚上的某些特定时刻。

But this other sort of individual mentioned, "No matter what time I go to bed, I seem to always wake up there." That, to me, smells of a suggestion of reinforced learning, that you've woken up a couple of times, you've checked the clock, and now you have taught your brain very quickly that I always wake up at 3:30 in the morning.

但另一类人提到，“无论我什么时候上床睡觉，我似乎总是在那里醒来。”对我来说，这有点强化学习的味道，你已经醒了几次，你已经检查过时钟，现在你很快就教会了你的大脑，我总是在凌晨 3:30 起床。

And lo and behold, what happens is that you start to do that more frequently.

你瞧，你会开始更频繁地这样做。

The more frequently it happens, the more times that you check, the stronger that memory association becomes, the more likely it is to happen.

它发生的频率越高，检查的次数越多，记忆关联就越强，发生的可能性就越大。

Remove the clock face from the bedroom.

将钟面从卧室移走。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Terrific.

太棒了。

Can we bank sleep or catch up on lost sleep?

我们可以储存睡眠或弥补失去的睡眠吗？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

It's a great question.

这是一个很好的问题。

You can and you cannot bank sleep, and it is directional.

你可以但不能储存睡眠，而且它是有方向性的。

So what we found is that for certain things, such as, let's say, an immune vaccination or learning and memory, if you are sleep deprived, let's say the night after learning a specific task, and lots of people have done this.

所以我们发现，对于某些事情，比如免疫疫苗或学习和记忆，如果你睡眠不足，比如在学习一项特定任务后的晚上，很多人都这样做了。

So you are deprived the first night after learning, and that first night we know is critical for consolidating and saving those memories.

所以你在学习后的第一个晚上就被剥夺了，而我们知道第一个晚上对于巩固和保存这些记忆至关重要。

But then the next day, I don't test you in the way I would normally do.

但第二天，我不会像平常那样测试你。

Instead, I give you a full recovery night of sleep, or maybe I give you two full recovery nights of sleep, and then I test you.

相反，我会给你一个完全恢复的睡眠之夜，或者也许我会给你两个完全恢复的睡眠之夜，然后我测试你。

Do you show any evidence of a memory consolidation benefit?

你有任何证据表明记忆巩固有好处吗？

And the answer is no, you don't.

答案是否定的，你不需要。

In other words, if you don't sleep the first night after learning, you lose the chance to consolidate those memories.

换句话说，如果你在学习后的第一个晚上不睡觉，你就失去了巩固这些记忆的机会。

So there, sleep, in that sense, is an all or nothing phenomenon.

因此，从这个意义上说，睡眠是一种全有或全无的现象。

If you don't snooze, you lose in that regard.

如果你不打瞌睡，那么你就输了。

And there are other examples of that downstairs in the body.

楼下还有其他例子。

That is what happens when you go into a debt and then you try to pay it back with later credit and it fails.

这就是当你负债累累，然后你试图用以后的信贷偿还它但失败时会发生的情况。

You can't seem to do that with sleep.

睡眠似乎无法做到这一点。

So in that sense, sleep is not like the bank in that direction.

所以从这个意义上说，睡眠在这个方向上不像银行。

You can't accumulate a debt, and then let's say at the weekend after short sleeping during the week, see if you can pay off that debt at some later point in time.

你无法积累债务，然后假设在一周短暂睡眠后的周末，看看你是否可以在稍后的某个时间点还清债务。

It doesn't work like that.

它不是那样工作的。

So for example, if I deprive you, Andrew Huberman, of sleep tonight, let's say it's an eight-hour opportunity, and then tomorrow I give you all of the recovery sleep that you want, and then on a second night, third night, fourth night, do you sleep longer those subsequent nights?

举例来说，如果我今晚剥夺你，安德鲁·休伯曼，假设这是一个八小时的机会，然后明天我给你提供你想要的所有恢复睡眠，然后在第二个晚上，第三个晚上，第四个晚上，你在接下来的晚上睡得更长吗？

Yes, you do.

是的，你知道。

But you only sleep back about 50%, about four extra hours.

但你只睡了大约 50%，大约多睡了四个小时。

In fact, if you look at the data, it's usually less.

事实上，如果你看一下数据，通常会更少。

It's usually around two, so only about 25% of the eight hours that you lost.

通常是 2 个小时左右，因此您只损失了 8 个小时的 25% 左右。

So you are always running a debt.

所以你总是负债累累。

And if that's the case, if you can't truly pay back your sleep debt and you're constantly running that short sleep cycle, it's like compounding interest on a loan.

如果是这样的话，如果你无法真正偿还你的睡眠债，并且你不断地运行着较短的睡眠周期，那就就像贷款的复利一样。

It just escalates dramatically.

它只是急剧升级。

And that's why I think we see that short sleep really does predict ill health outcomes and early mortality the later and later in life that you go.

这就是为什么我认为我们看到，睡眠不足确实可以预测您生命中越来越晚的健康状况不佳和过早死亡。

However, there is a different form of sleep banking.

然而，睡眠银行还有另一种形式。

I told you that here you're going into a debt and you're trying to pay it off with credit later.

我告诉过你，在这里你将陷入债务，并且稍后你会尝试用信用来偿还债务。

What if you had the inverse?

如果你有相反的情况怎么办？

Let's say that you are a doctor or a nurse or you are working in the emergency services and you know that you have two nights where you're on nights and you're going to be probably very busy, and you're not going to be sleeping well for the next two nights, and that's going to be next Monday and Tuesday, and I'm currently on Wednesday in the week prior.

假设您是一名医生或护士，或者您在紧急服务部门工作，您知道您有两个晚上需要值夜，您可能会非常忙碌，并且您在接下来的两个晚上不会睡得很好，这将是下周一和周二，而我目前是前一周的周三。

There is something that has been demonstrated called sleep banking, which is where I know I'm going to go into debt, so I sleep longer and I create credit to begin with, and then I spend that credit as I go into debt, and it seems to lessen the impact of that debt.

有一种东西已经被证明叫做“睡眠银行”，我知道自己会负债，所以我睡得更久，一开始就创造信用，然后我在负债时花掉这些信用，这似乎减轻了债务的影响。

It doesn't remove the impact entirely, but it does lessen it.

它并不能完全消除影响，但确实减轻了影响。

So here it's the inverse.

所以这里是相反的。

I'm not going into debt and then trying to pay it off later.

我不会负债累累，然后再想办法还清。

I build up credit and then I can spend that credit with debt.

我建立了信用，然后我可以用债务来偿还信用。

So there is a form of sleep banking that seems to be present, but it's not the sleep banking that most people think about.

因此，似乎存在一种睡眠银行形式，但这并不是大多数人想到的睡眠银行。

I know it's very confusing-

我知道这很令人困惑-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah

是啊

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

...

but I tried to be clear about it.

但我试图澄清这一点。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No, I think you made it very clear that you can buffer some of the sleep loss that you anticipate, but there's no retroactive saving of what you lost.

不，我认为您说得很清楚，您可以缓冲一些预期的睡眠损失，但无法追溯保存您失去的睡眠。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

That's right.

没错。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What are some of the best practices for getting back to sleep after waking up in the middle of the night?

半夜醒来后重新入睡的最佳做法有哪些？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

There, I would say there are several things.

在那里，我想说有几件事。

First, don't try too hard, because trying to get back to sleep and become frustrated is very much like trying to remember someone's name.

首先，不要太努力，因为试图重新入睡并变得沮丧就像试图记住某人的名字一样。

Sleep is just like this, that the harder you try, the further you push it away.

睡眠就是这样，你越努力，就越把它推得远远的。

And as soon as you stop, all of a sudden, that name just pops back into your head.

一旦你停下来，那个名字就会突然出现在你的脑海中。

And it's the same way with sleep.

睡眠也是如此。

Now, previously I've said you don't want to spend a lot of time awake in bed because you learn the association that your bed is the place of wakefulness, and every time you come in at night, you're always wide awake and you don't know why, despite having fallen asleep watching television just 20 minutes earlier.

现在，我之前说过，你不想在床上花很多时间醒着，因为你知道你的床是清醒的地方，每次你晚上睡觉时，你总是完全清醒，你不知道为什么，尽管你刚刚在 20 分钟前看电视就睡着了。

The other suggestion, however, is most people don't want to get out of bed.

然而，另一个建议是大多数人不想起床。

It's dark.

天黑了。

It's cold.

是冷的。

I get it.

我得到它。

I understand it.

我明白了。

The other thing to do in this situation is enjoy the concept of rest.

在这种情况下要做的另一件事是享受休息的概念。

So wouldn't it be wonderful if in the middle of your working day, someone said, "Look, just come away from your desk now, and here is a beautiful, calm bedroom.

因此，如果在你工作日的中间，有人说：“看，现在离开你的办公桌，这里有一间美丽、平静的卧室，那不是很棒吗？

It smells very nice.

闻起来很香。

Nice dim light.

昏暗的灯光很好。

I would like you to lie down.

我想让你躺下。

No need to fall asleep.

无需入睡。

Don't fall asleep.

别睡着了。

Just lie down on the bed or on the couch and just rest.

只需躺在床上或沙发上休息即可。

For the next 30 or 40 minutes, just have a wonderful, good old rest." That sounds lovely.

在接下来的 30 或 40 分钟里，好好休息一下吧。”听起来很可爱。

And if you are struggling to fall back asleep and you've listened to me and the idiocy of what I've been describing over the past six episodes, you could start to get very stressed and say, "Gosh, well, sleep is doing this and this and this, and I'm now, and it's been 20 minutes, and I can't fall back." You just get more and more stressed.

如果你正在努力重新入睡，并且你听了我的讲话以及我在过去六集里所描述的愚蠢的事情，你可能会开始感到非常有压力，并说：“天哪，好吧，睡眠就是做这个、这个、这个，而我现在，已经过去了 20 分钟，我不能再睡着了。”你只会变得越来越有压力。

Instead, take a different approach at that point.

相反，此时采取不同的方法。

Instead of if all the techniques that we've spoken about, getting your mind off itself, and we listed them just now, and we've listed them in a previous episode, if none of those are working and you just can't catch it, don't worry.

如果我们刚才谈到的所有技巧都没有让你分心，我们刚才列出了它们，我们在上一集中也列出了它们，如果这些都不起作用并且你只是无法理解它，请不要担心。

Just say to yourself, "You know what?

只要对自己说：“你知道吗？

Tonight is not my night, and he told me it's okay." And it really is.

今晚不是我的夜晚，他告诉我没关系。”确实如此。

It's fine.

没关系。

Tomorrow night is going to be a better night.

明天晚上将会是一个更好的夜晚。

Tonight instead, rather than trying to force myself to sleep, I'm just going to lie here, maybe with my eyes open.

今晚，我不会强迫自己睡觉，而是躺在这里，也许睁着眼睛。

I'm just going to rest.

我要去休息了。

I'm just going to enjoy and not stress.

我只会享受而不是有压力。

I'm just going to enjoy a good old rest in my bed.

我只想在床上好好休息一下。

And once again, the next thing that happens is that the sun has emerged.

接下来发生的事情又是太阳出现了。

It's bright in your room despite the blackout curtains, and your alarm is going off because as soon as you relaxed out of the state of trying, sleep came back in a resplendent way.

尽管拉着遮光窗帘，你的房间里还是很明亮，你的闹钟也响了，因为一旦你从尝试的状态中放松下来，睡眠就会以一种灿烂的方式回来。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Terrific.

太棒了。

Someone asks, quote, "I used to be a great sleeper, but as I've gotten older," and then they mention that they're 65 currently, "I find that I wake up much earlier than I did previously, and it's difficult for me to get more than six hours of sleep." What do you think is going on, and what are some remedies?

有人问，引述，“我曾经是一个很好的睡眠者，但随着年龄的增长，”然后他们提到自己现在已经 65 岁了，“我发现我比以前醒得早得多，而且我很难睡超过六个小时。”您认为这是怎么回事？有什么补救措施？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

The first question I would want to ask is, how do you feel on six hours of sleep?

我想问的第一个问题是，六个小时的睡眠感觉如何？

And we can go from there.

我们可以从那里开始。

If you are impaired and you're struggling during the day, and this person sounds as though they are unhappy with that six hours, then we can start to have a conversation.

如果您身体有障碍并且白天很挣扎，而这个人听起来似乎对这六个小时不满意，那么我们可以开始交谈。

What would that conversation sound like?

那段对话听起来会是什么样子？

I want to understand perhaps the reason that you can't get back asleep, and we'll begin these techniques that we've spoken about for trying to get back to sleep.

我想了解您无法重新入睡的原因，我们将开始使用我们已经讨论过的尝试重新入睡的技巧。

Let's say that you've gone to bed at 10:00, and you normally would like to wake up at 6:00, but you're always waking up at 4:00, and there's just nothing you can do.

假设您在 10:00 上床睡觉，通常您希望在 6:00 起床，但您总是在 4:00 起床，而您却无能为力。

At that stage, you just don't feel the sleepiness over you weighing you down, and there's no amount of these methods are going to help you.

到了这个阶段，你就不会感到困意压垮你，而且这些方法也无济于事。

You just have to get up.

你只需要站起来。

We see this a lot in older adults.

我们在老年人身上经常看到这种情况。

Sleep late in the night is very fragile, much greater probability of them waking up in the second half of the night and the last quarter.

深夜的睡眠非常脆弱，在后半夜和最后一刻醒来的可能性更大。

It's also miserable because most older adults, their circadian rhythm shifts earlier.

这也很痛苦，因为大多数老年人的昼夜节律变化得更早。

I told you that as we go through our teen years, our circadian rhythm shifts.

我告诉过你，随着我们进入青少年时期，我们的昼夜节律会发生变化。

It gets sort of pushed into the future, and we like to go to bed much later and wake up much later.

它有点被推到了未来，我们喜欢晚睡晚起。

And then into older adult, sort of into, well, adulthood, it drags back a little bit, and we find our sweet spot.

然后进入老年，进入成年期，它会向后退一点，然后我们找到了我们的最佳点。

But then as we get older, it starts to regress back to what happened when we were children.

但随着年龄的增长，它开始回归到我们小时候发生的事情。

We want to stay up late, but we can't.

我们想熬夜，但我们不能。

We go to bed so early, and we wake up early.

我们很早就睡觉，也很早起床。

Some regression happens as we get older.

随着年龄的增长，一些退化现象会发生。

By the way, it's the reason that there is the, quote-unquote, early bird special in Florida, where a lot of people retire.

顺便说一句，这就是佛罗里达州有很多人退休的早鸟特惠的原因。

It's the early bird special because most people are to bed by 9:00 PM, and they want to be eating, starting to eat at 4:00 PM.

这是早鸟优惠，因为大多数人在晚上 9:00 之前睡觉，并且他们想吃饭，所以在下午 4:00 开始吃饭。

So how do you deal with that?

那么你如何处理这个问题呢？

One way is you can use one of the four methods, the four sort of macros of good sleep that we spoke about, QQRT, quantity, quality, regularity, timing.

一种方法是你可以使用四种方法之一，我们谈到的四种良好睡眠宏，QQRT、数量、质量、规律性、时机。

Here I would say, see if you can delay your bedtime as best you can.

在这里我想说，看看你能不能尽量推迟睡觉时间。

If your bedtime is 10:00 and you're normally waking up at 6:00 but you're consistently waking up at 4:00, start trying to go to bed at 11:00 PM.

如果您的就寝时间是 10:00，并且您通常在 6:00 起床，但您始终在 4:00 起床，请开始尝试在晚上 11:00 睡觉。

Push, push, push as hard as you can until you are so sleepy, you sleep.

尽你最大的努力推，推，推，直到你很困，睡着了。

And then it will take a couple of days to build up that sort of remembering from your brain and the debt that to begin with, you'll go to bed now at 11:00, and you'll wake up at 4:00 again, and things are even worse.

然后你需要几天的时间才能从你的大脑中建立起这种记忆，以及一开始你会在 11:00 上床睡觉，然后在 4:00 再次醒来，事情会更糟。

But after a while, you're building up this pressure to sleep, and all of a sudden, you're going to bed again at 11:00, but your brain thinks, "I have had four nights of now just five hours of sleep.

但过了一段时间，你的睡眠压力就会增加，突然间，你要在 11:00 再次上床睡觉，但你的大脑会想：“我已经有四个晚上只睡了 5 个小时。

I'm not doing this anymore.

我不再这样做了。

I'm going to sleep through until 5:00." And you can keep moving your schedule later.

我要睡到5:00。”您可以稍后继续调整您的日程安排。

Because when older adults are waking up at 4:00 a.m., they can't get back.

因为当老年人凌晨 4:00 醒来时，他们就回不来了。

It's also miserable because the rest of the world is asleep And the people they want to engage with, have a social life, call the kids, speak with their grandkids, they can't do any of that.

这也很悲惨，因为世界其他地方都在睡觉，而他们想要交往的人，有社交生活，给孩子们打电话，和他们的孙子们说话，他们什么都做不到。

So it's a very difficult situation.

所以这是一个非常困难的情况。

If those things don't work, you can also speak to a board-certified sleep medicine clinician.

如果这些方法不起作用，您还可以咨询经过委员会认证的睡眠医学临床医生。

CBT-I, cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia, which we've spoken about in this episode, is also effective for older adults to help them stay asleep.

我们在本集中谈到的 CBT-I（针对失眠的认知行为疗法）对于帮助老年人保持睡眠也很有效。

If that doesn't work and you don't like to think about a psychological treatment, there are some medications.

如果这不起作用并且您不想考虑心理治疗，可以使用一些药物。

People think I'm probably a bit anti-medication because I've been very vocal about classic sleeping pills, but there are some sleeping medications that I think do show promise.

人们认为我可能有点反对药物治疗，因为我一直对经典安眠药直言不讳，但我认为有些安眠药确实有希望。

I'm not anti-pharmacology by any means.

无论如何，我并不反对药物。

One of them that's been shown to be effective for older adults is something called doxepin.

其中一种被证明对老年人有效的药物是多虑平。

And trazodone too, although there is some sort of pushback a little bit by the community against trazodone, and there's a new class of drugs that we've spoken about in a previous episode called the DORAs, the dual orexin receptor antagonists, D-O-R-A-S.

还有曲唑酮，尽管社区对曲唑酮有一些抵制，而且我们在上一集中谈到了一种新的药物，称为 DORA，双重食欲素受体拮抗剂，D-O-R-A-S。

So I've spoken about three there, trazodone, doxepin, the DORAs.

我谈到了其中的三种药物：曲唑酮、多塞平、DORA。

By the way, I'm a scientist, not a medical doctor.

顺便说一句，我是一名科学家，而不是一名医生。

This is scientifically descriptive, not medically prescriptive.

这是科学描述，而不是医学规定。

Trazodone has perhaps been used more so, if anything, to help people who struggle to fall asleep.

如果有的话，曲唑酮可能更多地被用来帮助难以入睡的人。

Doxepin, if you look at the data, is a medication that's much more helpful for keeping people asleep, and including, and especially it seems, for older adults.

如果你看一下数据，就会发现多虑平是一种对保持人们睡眠更有帮助的药物，尤其是对老年人来说。

And there it's lower dose doxepin.

这是较低剂量的多虑平。

I think if you look at the data, three milligrams and six-milligram doses have been effective.

我想如果你看数据的话，三毫克和六毫克的剂量是有效的。

You can get it in pill form, although usually not in those doses, and you have to end up cutting pills in half because it comes in 12 milligrams.

你可以以药丸的形式购买它，尽管通常剂量不是这样的，而且你最终必须把药丸减半，因为它有 12 毫克。

There is a liquid solution that is provided, and there, I think the standard dose starts at around half a milliliter.

提供了一种液体溶液，我认为标准剂量从半毫升左右开始。

So you get a little syringe, and it's a one-millimeter syringe, and you suck up that half a milliliter, and then you just put it in a drink in the last half an hour before bed.

所以你拿一个小注射器，它是一个一毫米的注射器，你吸出半毫升，然后在睡前的最后半小时将其放入饮料中。

It's tasteless and it helps you stay asleep.

它无味，但可以帮助你入睡。

So there are a variety of different things you can do.

因此，您可以做多种不同的事情。

Just go try for rest and just give yourself the chance.

去尝试休息，给自己一个机会。

Push your bed to a later time point.

把你的床推到稍后的时间点。

You can also try cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia, and you can speak with your physician about some sleep medications.

您还可以尝试治疗失眠的认知行为疗法，并且可以与您的医生讨论一些睡眠药物。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Terrific.

太棒了。

There were a good number of people that asked about sleep and menopause.

有很多人询问睡眠和更年期的问题。

One question was, quote, "Since entering menopause, I have not gotten a good night's sleep in years." I think this question dovetails with the previous question.

其中一个问题是，“自从进入更年期以来，我已经好几年没有睡过一个好觉了。”我认为这个问题与上一个问题吻合。

It could be age-related, right?

这可能与年龄有关，对吗？

Could be directly related to menopause.

可能与更年期有直接关系。

So are you aware of any specific treatments that you haven't covered in the course of this Q&A that are unique to menopause?

那么，您是否知道本问答过程中未提及的更年期特有的任何具体治疗方法？

I think the answer you just gave to whomever asked the question about how to get more sleep or better sleep as one has gotten older should probably handle the answer to this question, but what of the menopause-specific requirements for getting better sleep?

我认为你刚才给那些问到随着年龄的增长如何获得更多睡眠或更好睡眠的问题的人可能应该回答这个问题，但是更年期获得更好睡眠的具体要求是什么？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

It is a huge problem in premenopausal and perimenopausal women, and of course, women going through menopause.

对于绝经前和围绝经期女性，当然还有正在经历更年期的女性来说，这是一个巨大的问题。

It's principally because of what we call the vasomotor symptoms of menopause, which is to say these hot flashes where you just get, really for the body at least, quite extreme increases in temperature.

这主要是因为我们所说的更年期血管舒缩症状，也就是说，你刚刚出现的潮热，至少对身体来说，温度相当极端地升高。

You get so hot, and don't forget in our episode two, we spoke about how you need to regulate temperature, and there's a very beautiful and complex relationship between temperature and sleep.

你会变得很热，不要忘记在我们的第二集中，我们谈到了你需要如何调节温度，并且温度和睡眠之间存在着非常美丽而复杂的关系。

And we said you need to stay cool to stay asleep.

我们说过你需要保持冷静才能入睡。

But here is a situation where when you're asleep, you're not staying cool, you're doing the opposite, you're getting warm.

但在这种情况下，当你睡着时，你不会保持凉爽，你会做相反的事情，你会变得温暖。

And that is the adversarial thermal situation for staying asleep.

这就是保持睡眠的不利热环境。

And so individuals wake up and then they struggle to get back to sleep.

因此，人们醒来后就很难再入睡。

I would say, and we know the reasons why too, some of the other issues with sleep are problematic.

我想说的是，我们也知道其中的原因，其他一些睡眠问题也是有问题的。

It has to do with some of the sex hormone changes, and I think I myself have released a podcast on this specific issue, and I won't go into the mechanisms as to why.

这与一些性激素的变化有关，我想我自己已经发布了一个关于这个具体问题的播客，我不会深入探讨为什么。

I'll speak about the treatments.

我来谈谈治疗方法。

One treatment which is non-medication based is trying to make your bedroom cool, but also using these smart mattresses.

一种非药物治疗方法是尝试让您的卧室凉爽，但也使用这些智能床垫。

Now, I've spoken to Matteo, the CEO of Eight Sleep, another fantastic product, and he has had a huge amount of feedback from menopausal women saying that that cooling mattress has been very helpful for their vasomotor symptoms.

现在，我已经与另一款出色产品“Eight Sleep”的首席执行官 Matteo 进行了交谈，他从更年期女性那里得到了大量反馈，称冷却床垫对她们的血管舒缩症状非常有帮助。

So that's one method you can go down.

所以这是你可以继续下去的一种方法。

The other is a medication method, and here I need to be very careful.

另外一个是药物治疗的方法，这里需要非常小心。

I'm going to speak about bioidentical hormone replacement therapy for menopause.

我要谈谈针对更年期的生物同质激素替代疗法。

Now, there is a lot of controversy.

现在，有很多争议。

Again, I don't have a horse in the race.

再说一遍，我没有马参加比赛。

I would simply say if you want to think about this, you have done a fantastic podcast on female health and female reproductive health.

我只想说，如果你想考虑这个问题，你已经做了一个关于女性健康和女性生殖健康的精彩播客。

I know our friend Peter Attia has got a very clear stance on female hormone replacement therapy and the absence of fear one has to have around the risk of breast cancer.

我知道我们的朋友彼得·阿提亚（Peter Attia）对女性荷尔蒙替代疗法有着非常明确的立场，并且人们不必担心乳腺癌的风险。

And if you listen to him, he will excise, or at least he has disabused, I think, many people of the belief that that is a concern.

如果你听他的，他会消除，或者至少我认为，他已经消除了许多人的这种担忧。

But it's a very personal choice.

但这是一个非常个人的选择。

It's a woman's choice.

这是女人的选择。

No one but a woman can decide.

除了女人之外没有人可以决定。

But I would say that when women have gone into bioidentical hormone replacement therapy, one of the things that benefits is also sleep because it brings back under control some of these symptoms.

但我想说，当女性接受生物同质激素替代疗法时，好处之一就是睡眠，因为它可以控制其中一些症状。

It reinstigates some of the renormalization of aspects of reproductive hormones, and those are things that can promote sleep, which when they become absent through menopause, are causing sleep disruption.

它使生殖激素的某些方面重新正常化，而这些激素可以促进睡眠，当它们在更年期消失时，就会导致睡眠中断。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Great.

太棒了。

Someone asks: What does it mean if I can remember my dreams?

有人问：如果我能记住自己的梦，这意味着什么？

Conversely, what does it mean if I cannot remember my dreams?

相反，如果我不记得自己的梦，这意味着什么？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Does this have any reflection on my sleep quality?

这对我的睡眠质量有什么影响吗？

Well, some of this was addressed during today's episode, but maybe just to give a short recap response, how would you respond to this?

嗯，其中一些问题在今天的节目中得到了解决，但也许只是为了做一个简短的回顾，您对此有何回应？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

So I would say that just because you remember your dreams or you don't remember your-- Let's say you don't remember your dreams.

所以我会这么说，只是因为你记得你的梦想，或者你不记得你的——假设你不记得你的梦想。

Many people will ask me then, does that mean that I don't get REM sleep or I don't get enough REM sleep?

很多人会问我，这是否意味着我没有获得快速眼动睡眠，或者我没有获得足够的快速眼动睡眠？

No. Absolutely it doesn't.

不，绝对不是。

There seems to be no correlation between how much REM sleep that you're getting and whether or not you remember your dreams.

您的快速眼动睡眠时间与您是否记得自己的梦之间似乎没有相关性。

That's I think point number one.

我认为这是第一点。

Point number two is that there doesn't seem to be a strong correlation between you remembering your dreams and the quality of the waking day that ensues as a consequence of that dream-remembered sleep from the night before versus dream non-remembered.

第二点是，你记住自己的梦和醒来时的质量之间似乎没有很强的相关性，而清醒的一天的质量是由于前一天晚上记住的梦与不记得的梦而导致的。

The only time that we've got a little bit of data comes on to what we've spoken about today, which is lucidity, which is a different sort of one-up level of dreaming.

我们唯一一次获得一点数据是关于我们今天所讨论的，即清醒度，这是一种不同类型的单一水平的梦想。

There, maybe there's some unrestorative sleep argument.

那里，也许有一些令人无法恢复活力的睡眠争论。

But for the most part, I would say do not worry if you're not remembering your dreams.

但在大多数情况下，我想说，如果您不记得自己的梦，请不要担心。

It doesn't mean that you are not dreaming.

这并不意味着你没有在做梦。

By the way, I've got a wacky theory.

顺便说一句，我有一个古怪的理论。

It doesn't mean that you are also not storing those dreams and being influenced by them.

这并不意味着你也没有存储这些梦想并受到它们的影响。

There is something called implicit memory, and it was long sort of held, these versions of you go into a movie theater and for very brief milliseconds of periods of time you're shown images of Pepsi cans or Coke cans, and then during the intermission you track people's purchasing of soda.

有一种叫做内隐记忆的东西，它会被长期保留，这些版本的你走进电影院，在非常短暂的几毫秒的时间内，你会看到百事可乐罐或可口可乐罐的图像，然后在中场休息时你会跟踪人们购买苏打水的情况。

And sure enough, they will buy more Pepsi if they get flashed sort of...

果然，如果百事可乐被炫耀的话，他们会购买更多的……

So we can actually embed implicit information into people, and it changes their behavior.

因此，我们实际上可以将隐性信息嵌入人们体内，从而改变他们的行为。

They have no recollection of the memory, but it's clearly there, and it's clearly influencing the behavior.

他们不记得这段记忆，但它显然在那里，而且它显然影响着他们的行为。

What does this have to do with dreaming?

这和做梦有什么关系？

I have a theory of dreaming where people, and I told you, most of us forget most of our dreams, and we think when we forget, those dreams have gone.

我有一个关于梦想的理论，我告诉过你，我们大多数人都会忘记我们的大部分梦想，我们认为当我们忘记时，那些梦想就消失了。

They've evaporated from our brain.

它们已经从我们的大脑中消失了。

What if it's not the case?

如果不是这样怎么办？

Have you ever had that experience where you are waking up, and you know you are dreaming, and you just cannot capture it?

你是否有过这样的经历：当你醒来时，你知道自己在做梦，但你却无法捕捉到它？

And you think it's gone.

而你却认为它已经消失了。

That's it.

就是这样。

I've forgotten it.

我已经忘记了。

And then two days later, you're in the shower, you're looking at the shampoo bottle, and the label all of a sudden just unlocks the memory of that dream, and it comes flooding back.

两天后，你在洗澡时，看着洗发水瓶子，标签突然解锁了那个梦想的记忆，它又涌了上来。

As a neuroscientist, that tells me an important thing.

作为一名神经科学家，这告诉我一件重要的事情。

That memory is in existence, but previously it was unavailable.

该记忆确实存在，但之前不可用。

This is the difference between availability versus accessibility.

这就是可用性与可访问性之间的区别。

The memory was available, but you'd lost the IP address to go and retrieve it.

内存可用，但您丢失了无法检索它的 IP 地址。

Available, not accessible.

可用，不可访问。

Now, if most of our dreams are still always, quote-unquote, implicitly remembered, but we always fail to have accessibility, those memories arguably, according to my theory, are always available.

现在，如果我们的大多数梦想仍然总是被隐含地记住，但我们总是无法访问，那么根据我的理论，这些记忆可以说总是可用的。

They're always in our brains.

它们永远存在于我们的大脑中。

We just don't have conscious accessibility to them.

我们只是没有意识地接触它们。

That doesn't change the fact that our dreams may shape a huge amount of our behavior implicitly.

但这并没有改变这样一个事实：我们的梦可能会隐含地影响我们的大量行为。

And to me, that's a wild, crazy theory, and someday when I retire, I'll do the study and try and disprove it.

对我来说，这是一个疯狂的理论，有一天当我退休时，我会进行研究并尝试反驳它。

Anyway.

反正。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Love it.

喜欢它。

What are the key supplements for sleep?

睡眠的主要补充有哪些？

And I just have to say, that's a huge topic that's an entire episode into itself.

我只想说，这是一个很大的话题，它本身就是一整集。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah, you and I should probably do intellectual jazz on that at some point.

是的，你和我也许应该在某个时候对此进行智力爵士乐。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, we should do that.

是的，我们应该这样做。

But let's constrain the question a bit for sake of time.

但为了时间起见，让我们稍微限制一下这个问题。

What, if any, supplements do you personally take or recommend to people?

您个人服用或向人们推荐哪些补充剂（如果有）？

With the understanding that many people perhaps do not need supplements.

据了解，许多人可能不需要补充剂。

All right?

好的？

We never want to give the impression that that's the first lined approach to dealing with sleep issues.

我们不想给人留下这样的印象：这是处理睡眠问题的首要方法。

Get your sunlight, get your darkness, get your QQRT right, all of that.

获得阳光，获得黑暗，获得正确的 QQRT，所有这些。

If it's mysterious to you, all of that is in the previous episodes of this podcast series.

如果您觉得很神秘，所有这些都在这个播客系列的前几集中。

But assuming that someone wants to explore the supplement space, what do you recommend or what do you take?

但假设有人想探索补充空间，你会推荐什么或采取什么？

And please here, I'm going to encourage you to not take into consideration at all what I've ever said about supplements for sleep-

请在这里，我鼓励您完全不要考虑我所说的有关睡眠补充剂的内容 -

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

No. Well, I would-

不，好吧，我会-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

because I think it's actually most useful if people get a tapestry of opinions.

因为我认为如果人们能得到一系列的意见，这实际上是最有用的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Please, I'm just going to say that outright.

拜托，我只是要直截了当地说出来。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

No, I think we will-

不，我想我们会-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I don't-- Yeah.

我不——是的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Maybe you could say a little bit more about those that you would recommend, and I think they're going to probably overlap because I already sort of-

也许你可以多说一些你会推荐的内容，我认为它们可能会重叠，因为我已经有点-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Sure

当然可以

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

...

know some of them, but.

认识其中一些，但是。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Sure.

当然。

I recommend, again, I just want to say that never take anything or remove anything from your regimen without talking to your doctor first, and always make sure that you're doing all the behaviors correctly first.

我再次建议，我只是想说，在未先咨询医生的情况下，切勿服用任何药物或从您的治疗方案中删除任何药物，并且始终确保您首先正确执行所有行为。

And there are so many of them.

而且有很多。

Don't eat too close to bedtime.

不要在临近睡觉时间吃东西。

Get your morning sunlight.

享受早晨的阳光。

On and on.

不断地。

But the supplements that I recommend when people ask for supplement recommendations specifically are magnesium threonate.

但当人们专门询问补充剂建议时，我推荐的补充剂是苏糖酸镁。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's more or less interchangeable with magnesium bisglycinate.

它或多或少可以与双甘氨酸镁互换。

It has a slight sedative property.

它具有轻微的镇静作用。

A lot of people are deficient in magnesium anyway, and this is magnesium taken about 30 to 60 minutes before bedtime.

无论如何，很多人都缺乏镁，这是睡前 30 至 60 分钟服用的镁。

The other one is apigenin, which is essentially a derivative of chamomile.

另一种是芹菜素，它本质上是洋甘菊的衍生物。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And then the third is theanine, which is known to have a mild anti-anxiety component to it.

第三种是茶氨酸，已知它具有温和的抗焦虑成分。

The one caveat is that theanine can be problematic for people that have very vivid dreams.

需要注意的是，茶氨酸对于那些有非常生动的梦的人来说可能是个问题。

People say that it makes their dreams even more vivid.

人们说这让他们的梦想更加生动。

And so if you suffer from that or it's waking you up, then I suggest leaving out the theanine.

因此，如果您患有此病或它使您醒来，那么我建议不要添加茶氨酸。

I actually recommend people start with just one thing and then see how it affects them-

我实际上建议人们从一件事开始，然后看看它如何影响他们 -

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and then bring more in.

然后再带更多进来。

I'll put a link in the show note captions to the dosages that were contained within a zero-cost newsletter about sleep rather than list off dosages here-

我将在节目注释标题中添加一个链接，指向有关睡眠的零成本时事通讯中包含的剂量，而不是在此处列出剂量 -

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and then people can link to that in the show note captions.

然后人们可以链接到节目注释标题中的内容。

Those are the main three, and then there's one other which And I use those, by the way, most every night before sleep, and it has improved my sleep dramatically.

这是主要的三个，还有另外一个，顺便说一句，我每天晚上睡觉前都会使用这些，它极大地改善了我的睡眠。

The other thing that I sometimes use is 900 milligrams of inositol-

我有时使用的另一种东西是 900 毫克肌醇 -

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

which, for whatever reason, I find, again, this is anecdata, makes it easier for me to fall back asleep when I wake up in the middle of the night, especially if I haven't eaten very many starchy carbohydrates in the days preceding.

不管出于什么原因，我再次发现，这是轶事，让我在半夜醒来时更容易重新入睡，特别是如果我在前几天没有吃太多淀粉类碳水化合物的话。

I try and eat some starches after hard training and things of that sort.

我尝试在艰苦训练后吃一些淀粉类食物。

But sometimes, if I'm on a lower carbohydrate regimen, then I find it extra difficult to sleep, so I'll throw in some inositol.

但有时，如果我采用较低碳水化合物的养生法，那么我会发现很难入睡，所以我会添加一些肌醇。

I will say there have been nights where I forget my supplements and just fall asleep.

我会说，有些晚上我忘记了补充品，然后就睡着了。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And so it's tough to say exactly what each of those is doing and in what combinations.

因此，很难确切地说出它们各自在做什么以及以什么组合进行。

You always need to think about how much disposable income somebody has.

你总是需要考虑一个人有多少可支配收入。

Again, get your behaviors right.

再次强调，行为要端正。

Get the dos and don'ts that Matt described during the course of this podcast series right, and then consider supplementation.

正确掌握马特在本播客系列课程中描述的注意事项，然后考虑补充。

But yeah, that's pretty much what I rely on.

但是，是的，这就是我所依赖的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah, I like what you're saying, both the philosophy of it too, because the things that we've spoken about, the QQRT and all of the different methods, they are a log order magnitude greater in terms of how they will course correct your sleep than probably any supplement effect that I know of.

是的，我喜欢你所说的，也包括它的哲学，因为我们所说的 QQRT 和所有不同的方法，就如何纠正你的睡眠而言，它们比我所知道的任何补充剂效果都要大一个数量级。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

But to go back to your MagT, Mag 308-

但回到你的 MagT，Mag 308-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

...

I think there is some evidence, definitely interesting evidence.

我认为有一些证据，绝对有趣的证据。

It was more so in older adults, and they were able to show increases in the total amount of deep sleep.

对于老年人来说更是如此，他们的深度睡眠总量有所增加。

I think it was somewhere around about 15% to 20%, although that's the relative percent difference.

我认为大约是 15% 到 20% 左右，尽管这是相对百分比差异。

If you look, I think it was only about six or seven minutes of total deep sleep.

如果你看的话，我认为总共只有大约六到七分钟的深度睡眠。

But there is some evidence there.

但那里有一些证据。

The evidence, by way of you've heard the story of that magnesium is good for sleep, it's principally derived from evidence of people who are magnesium deficient, and when you make them magnesium normative, they start sleeping better.

证据，你听说过镁有益于睡眠的故事，它主要来自于缺镁人群的证据，当你让他们的镁处于正常状态时，他们就会开始睡得更好。

That's a very different question than saying, "I am magnesium normative.

这是一个与说“我是镁标准者”截然不同的问题。

I am in normal ranges," and then I add to it, do I expect any greater benefit?

我在正常范围内”，然后我补充道，我是否期望有更大的好处？

That's like me saying, you're at an oxygen saturation of 99.9, and I'm going to give you pure oxygen.

就像我说的，你的氧饱和度是99.9，我会给你纯氧。

It's not going to move you above 100.

它不会让你超过 100。

You're already at ceiling.

你已经到了天花板了。

Whereas if you are at 85% and I give you oxygen, you're going to get a lovely benefit from that.

而如果你处于 85% 的状态，而我给你提供氧气，你会从中得到很大的好处。

But I like Mag 308 because it is, based on the evidence, the only one that does cross the blood-brain barrier.

但我喜欢 Mag 308，因为根据证据，它是唯一能穿过血脑屏障的药物。

People have said, well, then why do I get a benefit from things like the other one that I would speak about is probably Slow Mag because it can be tough on some people's tummy, and it's a coated form of magnesium.

人们说，好吧，那么为什么我能从像我要谈论的另一种可能是慢速镁的东西中受益，因为它对某些人的胃来说可能很困难，而且它是一种镁的涂层形式。

That doesn't necessarily cross the blood-brain barrier.

这不一定能穿过血脑屏障。

But magnesium, I would say if you want to focus on, would maybe be magnesium chloride.

但我想说，如果你想关注的话，镁可能是氯化镁。

Maybe Pete Attia has released a podcast on this, too.

也许皮特·阿提亚（Pete Attia）也就此发布了一个播客。

That seems to be, I think, an effective one for bioavailability.

我认为这似乎是一种有效的生物利用度方法。

But if it doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier, how can it be affecting sleep?

但如果它不能穿过血脑屏障，怎么会影响睡眠呢？

Because sleep is of the brain, by the brain, and for the brain.

因为睡眠属于大脑、由大脑控制、为大脑服务。

One of the reasons is because of muscle relaxation.

原因之一是因为肌肉松弛。

So if you're too tense in your body, it feeds signals of stress to your brain.

因此，如果你的身体过于紧张，它就会向你的大脑发送压力信号。

And if you're stressed, as we've spoken about, you're not going to sleep well.

正如我们所说，如果你有压力，你就睡不好。

So I think there could be indirect effects of forms of magnesium that do not cross the blood-brain barrier.

因此，我认为不穿过血脑屏障的镁形式可能会产生间接影响。

Again, assuming that you are magnesium deficient.

再次假设您缺乏镁。

I think Apogenin chamomile has some good evidence.

我认为 Apogenin 洋甘菊有一些很好的证据。

Valerian root, unfortunately, if you look at the data, it doesn't seem to hold up in terms of any sleep benefit whatsoever.

不幸的是，如果你看一下数据，缬草根似乎并没有任何睡眠益处。

Probably two that I would add to that list.

我可能会添加到该列表中的两个。

The first is glycine, and here we're talking about doses of maybe 1.5 to 2 grams of glycine, has quite a reliable, robust literature.

第一个是甘氨酸，这里我们讨论的剂量可能是 1.5 到 2 克甘氨酸，有相当可靠、可靠的文献。

Now, it's not randomized controlled trials of a level of a drug because these are supplements.

现在，这不是某种药物水平的随机对照试验，因为这些是补充剂。

You don't get those studies.

你没有得到这些研究。

But it does seem to have quite a reliable benefit based on what I've seen in the literature.

但根据我在文献中看到的内容，它似乎确实具有相当可靠的好处。

The final one I would say, which has very good data to support its action, is something called phosphatidylserine.

我要说的最后一种物质是磷脂酰丝氨酸，它有很好的数据支持其作用。

Phosphatidylserine.

磷脂酰丝氨酸。

And again, I've got no association with any supplement company whatsoever, but this has been reliably demonstrated to tamp down the cortisol response.

再说一遍，我与任何补充剂公司都没有任何关系，但它已被可靠地证明可以抑制皮质醇反应。

Now, that data you've got to be careful.

现在，你必须小心这些数据。

If you look at it and read the studies, which I have, it's principally in athletes, and they use an athletic performance intervention to brute force cortisol to go up, and then they use this medication and it brings it back down.

如果你看一下我的研究，你会发现它主要是针对运动员的，他们使用运动表现干预来强力提高皮质醇，然后他们使用这种药物，使其回落。

But it is reliable.

但它是可靠的。

I bring this up because we spoke about in one of our episodes, insomnia patients as they're trying to fall asleep, cortisol is coming down just like it is in all healthy people, and it drops low just as we're about to fall asleep.

我提出这个问题是因为我们在其中一集中谈到，失眠患者在试图入睡时，皮质醇会像所有健康人一样下降，并且在我们即将入睡时下降得很低。

But in insomnia patients, it spikes back up again, and then it does in the middle of the night.

但在失眠患者中，它会再次飙升，然后在半夜再次出现。

So here is a medication that one could try to try to tamp down that cortisol specifically as you're going into sleep, and that may be of help, too.

因此，这里有一种药物可以在你入睡时尝试抑制皮质醇，这也可能有帮助。

So those are the only two that I would give with the same caveat that get everything else straight.

因此，这是我唯一愿意给出的两个相同的警告，以使其他一切都变得简单。

Stop worrying about buying supplements and thinking it's going to be a quick fix.

不要再担心购买补充剂并认为这会是一个快速解决方案。

Get the basics in place, and then we can think about fine-tuning you for the final couple of percent optimization that you get from supplements.

掌握了基础知识，然后我们就可以考虑对您进行微调，以实现您从补充剂中获得的最后几个百分点的优化。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Terrific answer.

很棒的答案。

The final question-

最后一个问题——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Hmm

嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

of this sixth and final episode of this podcast series on sleep with Dr. Matthew Walker.

这是马修·沃克博士关于睡眠的播客系列的第六集也是最后一集的内容。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

I'm so sad.

我很伤心。

I don't want to leave.

我不想离开。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I know.

我知道。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

I don't want to stop speaking about sleep.

我不想停止谈论睡眠。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, we can always do another.

好吧，我们总是可以做另一个。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

I would love to.

我很乐意。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

If the literature changes, it evolves, we can do another and another.

如果文献发生变化、不断发展，我们就可以做一个又一个。

Is the following.

是以下。

If you could give just one tip for getting better sleep, what would that be?

如果您只能提供一个获得更好睡眠的秘诀，那会是什么？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Regularity.

规律性。

Just keep things regular.

只要保持规律就可以了。

If you get regular sleep, a lot of things will start to take care of themselves.

如果你有规律的睡眠，很多事情就会开始自行解决。

And after that, if they don't We'll have another conversation, and we'll go back to the other three keys, the other three of the four macros of sleep, quantity, quality, and regularity, as I've spoken about, and timing, and then all of the other protocols that we've mentioned.

之后，如果他们不这样做，我们将进行另一次对话，然后我们将回到其他三个关键，睡眠、数量、质量和规律性四个宏中的其他三个，正如我所说的，以及时间安排，然后是我们提到的所有其他协议。

But start with regularity.

但要从规律开始。

Get that straight, and I would also say your timing, too, the R and the T of QQRT.

说清楚，我也会说你的时机，QQRT 的 R 和 T。

Figure out your chronotype, get good with your chronotype as best you can, and then get regular.

弄清楚你的生物钟类型，尽可能地适应你的生物钟类型，然后变得规律。

If you do those two things, sleep in synchrony with your chronotype rather than against it, and you are being regular weekdays and weekends, you will get a long way to getting better sleep.

如果你做到这两件事，与你的生物钟同步而不是违背它，并且你在工作日和周末保持规律的睡眠，那么你将有很长的路要走，才能获得更好的睡眠。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Fantastic.

太棒了。

Well, I'll put one in.

嗯，我就放一张进去。

If you could give just one tip for getting better sleep, what would it be?

如果您只能提供一个改善睡眠的秘诀，您会推荐什么？

I suggest you listen to all six episodes of the Huberman Lab podcast guest series with Dr. Matthew Walker about sleep and ways to improve sleep, because episode one covers the biology and the basics of how to get better sleep and what sleep is.

我建议您收听 Matthew Walker 博士主持的 Huberman Lab 播客客座系列节目的全部六集，内容涉及睡眠和改善睡眠的方法，因为第一集涵盖了生物学以及如何获得更好睡眠以及睡眠是什么的基础知识。

Episode two gets into the more advanced tools, although I know they are tools that everyone can and should consider.

第二集介绍了更高级的工具，尽管我知道它们是每个人都可以而且应该考虑的工具。

Episode three gets into the power of naps, caffeine, food, and the timing of those.

第三集探讨了小睡、咖啡因、食物以及这些小睡的时间的力量。

Oh, so powerful.

哦，太强大了。

Episode four gets into the role of sleep in learning, memory, and creativity.

第四集探讨了睡眠在学习、记忆和创造力中的作用。

What's more interesting than that?

还有什么比这更有趣的呢？

Episode five, we discussed sleep and its impact on emotional health and mental health, and today we were discussing dreaming and lucid dreaming.

第五集，我们讨论了睡眠及其对情绪健康和心理健康的影响，今天我们讨论了做梦和清醒梦。

And here is where I get to say, Dr. Matthew Walker, thank you oh, so much for giving us a absolutely world-class grand tour of this incredible aspect of our lives that we call sleep, and in doing so, also making it extremely clear, extremely actionable at every step, and very, very thorough in a way that really honors the interest and intellect and just real sincere interest in this topic on the part of the audience.

在这里，我要说的是，马修·沃克博士，非常感谢你，哦，非常感谢你为我们带来了一次绝对世界级的盛大之旅，让我们了解了我们生活中这个令人难以置信的方面，我们称之为睡眠，并且在这样做的过程中，也使其变得非常清晰，每一步都非常可操作，而且非常非常彻底，以一种真正尊重观众对这个话题的兴趣和智慧以及真正真诚的兴趣的方式。

So I could not think of a single better person for this series than you, alive or dead.

所以我想不出比你更适合这个系列的人了，无论你活着还是死了。

Fortunately, you're alive.

幸运的是，你还活着。

And I just want to say on behalf of myself, everyone else here at the Huberman Lab podcast, and the many, many millions of people listening to or watching this series, thank you ever so much.

我只想代表我自己、胡伯曼实验室播客的其他人以及数以百万计收听或观看本系列节目的人说，非常感谢你们。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

For having me on, for giving me this opportunity, firstly, thank you, but also for the generosity of your heart, your intellect, and your willing to disseminate knowledge to millions of people, myself included.

首先感谢你们邀请我参加，给我这个机会，同时也感谢你们的慷慨之心、你们的智慧以及你们愿意向包括我在内的数百万人传播知识。

It is my privilege to sit next to you, across from you, and I've received so much wisdom and knowledge from you, as so many others have.

我很荣幸能坐在你的对面，我从你那里得到了很多智慧和知识，就像许多其他人一样。

You are an international treasure.

你是国际珍宝。

Thank you, Andrew.

谢谢你，安德鲁。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Wow.

哇。

Thank you.

谢谢。

I'll try and take that in.

我会尝试接受这一点。

I'm grateful for you being a colleague and a friend.

我很感激你成为我的同事和朋友。

And my favorite sign-off with people I love is more soon.

我最喜欢和我爱的人结束的时候会很快。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Take care.

保重。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Thank you for joining me for today's episode with Dr. Matthew Walker.

感谢您接受我今天与马修·沃克博士的节目。

To learn more about Dr. Walker's research and to learn more about his book and his social media handles, please see the links in our show note captions.

要了解有关沃克博士的研究的更多信息以及有关他的书和社交媒体处理的更多信息，请参阅我们的节目注释标题中的链接。

If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.

如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。

That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.

这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。

In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify and Apple.

此外，请在 Spotify 和 Apple 上订阅该播客。

And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.

在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。

Please also check out the sponsors at the beginning and throughout today's episode.

还请在今天的节目开始和整个节目中查看赞助商。

That's the best way to support this podcast.

这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。

If you have any questions for me or comments about the podcast or topics or guests that you'd like me to feature on the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.

如果您对我有任何疑问或对您希望我在 Huberman Lab 播客上介绍的播客或主题或嘉宾有任何意见，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。

I do read all the comments.

我确实阅读了所有评论。

On many episodes of the Huberman Lab podcast, we discuss supplements.

在休伯曼实验室播客的许多剧集中，我们讨论了补充剂。

While supplements aren't necessary for everybody, many people derive tremendous benefit from them, for things like improving sleep, for hormone support, and for focus.

虽然补充剂并不是每个人都需要的，但许多人都从它们中获得了巨大的好处，例如改善睡眠、支持激素和集中注意力。

To learn more about the supplements discussed on the Huberman Lab podcast, go to Live Momentous, spelled O-U-S.

要了解有关 Huberman Lab 播客上讨论的补充剂的更多信息，请访问 Live Momentous（拼写为 O-U-S）。

That's livemomentous.com/huberman.

这是 livemomentous.com/huberman。

If you're not already following me on social media, I'm hubermanlab on all social media platforms, so that's Instagram, X, LinkedIn, Facebook, and Threads.

如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我在所有社交媒体平台上都是 hubermanlab，包括 Instagram、X、LinkedIn、Facebook 和 Threads。

And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content covered on the Huberman Lab podcast.

在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和科学相关工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客涵盖的内容不同。

So again, it's hubermanlab on all social media platforms.

再说一遍，所有社交媒体平台上都是 hubermanlab。

If you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, our Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost newsletter that provides podcast summaries, as well as protocols in the form of brief one- to three-page PDFs that cover everything from neuroplasticity and learning to sleep, to deliberate cold exposure and deliberate heat exposure.

如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，我们的神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本时事通讯，提供播客摘要以及一到三页 PDF 形式的简要协议，涵盖从神经可塑性和学习到睡眠，到有意冷暴露和有意热暴露等各个方面。

We have a foundational fitness protocol and much more.

我们有一个基本的健身协议等等。

All of which, again, is completely zero cost.

再次强调，所有这些都是完全零成本的。

You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu tab, scroll down to newsletter, and by supplying your email, you can subscribe.

您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到菜单选项卡，向下滚动到时事通讯，然后提供您的电子邮件即可订阅。

I want to point out that we do not share your email with anybody.

我想指出的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。

Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion all about sleep with Dr. Matthew Walker.

再次感谢您今天与马修·沃克博士一起参与有关睡眠的讨论。

And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。