Guest Series | Dr. Matt Walker: Improve Sleep to Boost Mood & Emotional Regulation

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Welcome to the Huberman Lab Guest Series, where I and an expert guest discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

欢迎来到胡伯曼实验室嘉宾系列，我和一位专家嘉宾讨论了日常生活中的科学和基于科学的工具。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

Today marks the fifth episode in our six-episode series all about sleep, with expert guest Dr. Matthew Walker.

今天是我们关于睡眠的六集系列节目的第五集，由专家嘉宾马修·沃克博士主持。

Today's episode focuses on the inextricable link between sleep and our mental health.

今天的节目重点讨论睡眠与我们的心理健康之间密不可分的联系。

For instance, a specific stage of sleep called rapid eye movement, or REM sleep, is critical for removing the emotional content of our previous day's memories, and in doing so, provides a sort of therapy within sleep that allows us to feel emotionally restored when we wake the next morning.

例如，一个称为快速眼动睡眠（REM sleep）的特定睡眠阶段对于消除前一天记忆中的情绪内容至关重要，并且这样做可以在睡眠中提供一种治疗，让我们在第二天早上醒来时感觉情绪恢复了。

We discuss what happens when you are deprived of REM sleep to a small or greater degree, and we discuss how to improve the quality and quantity of your REM sleep in order to ensure mental health.

我们讨论当您在较小或较大程度上剥夺快速眼动睡眠时会发生什么，并讨论如何提高快速眼动睡眠的质量和数量以确保心理健康。

We also discuss science-based protocols for reducing rumination and negative thoughts before sleep.

我们还讨论了基于科学的方案，以减少睡前的沉思和消极想法。

The information shared by Dr. Walker in today's episode is sure to be critical for anyone that is either struggling with mental health issues or who simply wants to bolster their overall mental health.

沃克博士在今天的节目中分享的信息对于那些正在与心理健康问题作斗争或只是想增强整体心理健康的人来说肯定是至关重要的。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是将有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息带给公众。

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。

Our first sponsor is Eight Sleep.

我们的第一个赞助商是八睡。

Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity.

August Sleep 生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。

Many times on this podcast, we discuss how in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually needs to drop by about one to three degrees.

在这个播客中，我们多次讨论为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的体温实际上需要下降约一到三度。

And in order to wake up feeling maximally refreshed and energized, your body temperature needs to heat up by about one to three degrees.

为了在醒来时感到最大程度的神清气爽和精力充沛，您的体温需要升高约一到三度。

Eight Sleep makes it very easy to control the temperature of your sleeping environment so that it's easy to fall and stay asleep and wake up feeling refreshed.

八睡眠让您可以轻松控制睡眠环境的温度，从而轻松入睡并保持睡眠状态，醒来时感觉神清气爽。

I started sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover several years ago, and it has completely and positively transformed my sleep.

几年前，我开始睡在八睡床罩上，它彻底、积极地改变了我的睡眠。

So much so that when I travel to hotels or Airbnbs, I really miss my Eight Sleep.

以至于当我去酒店或 Airbnb 旅行时，我真的很怀念我的八觉睡眠。

I've even shipped my Eight Sleep out to hotels that I've been staying in because it improves my sleep that much.

我什至把我的八睡眠送到我一直住过的酒店，因为它极大地改善了我的睡眠。

If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, you can go to eightsleep.com/huberman to save $150 off their Pod 3 cover.

如果您想尝试八睡眠，您可以访问八睡眠.com/huberman，在其 Pod 3 封面上可节省 150 美元。

Eight Sleep currently ships to the USA, Canada, UK, select countries in the EU, and Australia.

八睡眠目前运往美国、加拿大、英国、欧盟部分国家和澳大利亚。

Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman.

再说一遍，这是八睡眠.com/huberman。

Today's episode is also brought to us by LMNT.

今天的节目也是LMNT给我们带来的。

LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.

LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。

That means plenty of the electrolytes, magnesium, potassium, and sodium, and no sugar.

这意味着需要大量的电解质、镁、钾和钠，并且不含糖。

As I've mentioned before on this podcast, I'm a big fan of salt.

正如我之前在这个播客中提到的，我是盐的忠实粉丝。

Now, I want to be clear.

现在，我想澄清一下。

People who already consume a lot of salt or who have high blood pressure or who happen to consume a lot of processed foods that typically contain salt need to control their salt intake.

已经摄入大量盐或患有高血压或恰好食用大量通常含有盐的加工食品的人需要控制盐的摄入量。

However, if you're somebody who eats pretty clean and you're somebody who exercises and you're drinking a lot of water, there's a decent chance that you could benefit from ingesting more electrolytes with your liquids.

然而，如果您饮食非常干净，并且经常锻炼并且喝大量的水，那么您很有可能通过液体摄入更多的电解质而受益。

The reason for that is that all the cells in our body, including the nerve cells, the neurons, require the electrolytes in order to function properly.

原因是我们体内的所有细胞，包括神经细胞、神经元，都需要电解质才能正常运作。

So we don't just want to be hydrated, we want to be hydrated with proper electrolyte levels.

因此，我们不仅要补充水分，还希望补充适当的电解质水平。

With LMNT, that's very easy to do.

有了 LMNT，这很容易做到。

What I do is when I wake up in the morning, I consume about 16 to 32 ounces of water, and I'll dissolve a packet of LMNT in that water.

我所做的是，当我早上醒来时，我会喝大约 16 到 32 盎司的水，然后将一包 LMNT 溶解在水中。

I'll also do the same when I exercise, especially if it's on a hot day and I'm sweating a lot.

当我锻炼时我也会这样做，特别是在大热天而且我出汗很多的时候。

And sometimes I'll even have a third LMNT packet dissolved in water if I'm exercising really hard or sweating a lot, or if I just notice that I'm not consuming enough salt with my food.

有时，如果我锻炼得很辛苦或出汗很多，或者我只是注意到我在食物中没有摄入足够的盐，我什至会将第三包 LMNT 溶解在水中。

If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt, spelled L-M-N-T, .com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with your purchase.

如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt（拼写为 L-M-N-T，.com/huberman），在购买时索取免费的 LMNT 样品包。

Again, that's drinklmnt, L-M-N-T, .com/huberman.

再说一遍，这是 Drinklmnt，L-M-N-T，.com/huberman。

Today's episode is also brought to us by BetterHelp.

今天的节目也是由 BetterHelp 为我们带来的。

BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online.

BetterHelp 提供由持证治疗师完全在线进行的专业治疗。

I've been doing therapy for over 30 years.

我从事治疗已有 30 多年了。

Initially, it was a requirement for being let back in school, but I decided to keep up with that therapy because provided the therapy has three essential components, which are excellent rapport with the therapist, support from the therapist, and valuable insights from the therapist that we wouldn't otherwise be able to arrive at, well then it's a terrific way to improve our mental landscape, both our emotional state and our behaviors.

最初，这是让我重返学校的必要条件，但我决定继续接受这种治疗，因为如果这种治疗具有三个基本组成部分，即与治疗师的良好融洽关系、治疗师的支持以及治疗师提供的宝贵见解（否则我们无法获得这些见解），那么这是改善我们的心理景观、情绪状态和行为的绝佳方法。

BetterHelp allows you to find a therapist with whom you have those three key components, and it also makes it very easy to schedule.

BetterHelp 可以让您找到一位具备这三个关键要素的治疗师，而且还可以轻松安排时间。

Again, the sessions are carried out entirely online, and even if you're extremely busy or traveling a lot or have a lot of family and business obligations, BetterHelp allows you to access those therapy sessions regularly so that you can constantly improve.

同样，这些课程完全在线进行，即使您非常忙碌或经常出差或有很多家庭和商业义务，BetterHelp 也可以让您定期访问这些治疗课程，以便您不断进步。

There's just, oh, so much data supporting that quality therapy can improve our mental health and the overall landscape of our lives.

哦，有太多数据支持优质治疗可以改善我们的心理健康和我们生活的整体状况。

In fact, I view quality therapy as important as physical exercise, and I know many others do as well.

事实上，我认为优质治疗与体育锻炼一样重要，而且我知道许多其他人也这么认为。

They certainly aren't a replacement for one another, but if you're doing physical exercise, meaning resistance training and cardiovascular training, and you're doing regular quality therapy of the sort that BetterHelp can provide, well then you're essentially doing as much as anyone possibly can to improve your mental health and physical health.

它们当然不能相互替代，但如果您正在进行体育锻炼，即阻力训练和心血管训练，并且您正在进行 BetterHelp 可以提供的定期优质治疗，那么您实际上正在尽一切努力来改善您的心理健康和身体健康。

If you'd like to try BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month.

如果您想尝试 BetterHelp，请访问 betterhelp.com/huberman，第一个月可享受 10% 的折扣。

Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman.

再说一次，这是 betterhelp.com/huberman。

And now for my conversation with Dr. Matthew Walker.

现在是我与马修·沃克博士的对话。

Dr. Matthew Walker, welcome back.

马修·沃克博士，欢迎回来。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Dr. Andrew Huberman, delight to be back.

安德鲁·胡伯曼博士，很高兴回来。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

During the course of this series, we've of course been talking about sleep, and you've talked about the biology of sleep, ways to improve, maybe even optimize one's sleep.

在本系列的课程中，我们当然一直在谈论睡眠，而您也谈论了睡眠的生物学、改善甚至优化睡眠的方法。

You defined what optimizing one's sleep actually is.

您定义了优化睡眠的实际含义。

Talked about learning and memory, creativity, caffeine, naps, food, exercise, and so much more.

谈论学习和记忆、创造力、咖啡因、小睡、食物、锻炼等等。

Today, I'm excited that you're going to teach us about the relationship between sleep and emotion regulation, but also mental health challenges.

今天，我很高兴您将教我们有关睡眠和情绪调节之间的关系，以及心理健康挑战。

But I sometimes like to remind people that mental health includes the word health.

但我有时想提醒人们，心理健康包括健康这个词。

It's not all about mental illness.

这不仅仅与精神疾病有关。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's also about how to improve one's health, as well as ways to combat certain forms of mental illness or challenges.

它还涉及如何改善个人健康，以及对抗某些形式的精神疾病或挑战的方法。

So to start things off Maybe you could just give us the basics of the relationship between sleep and emotional states, or one's ability to regulate their own emotions.

首先，也许你可以向我们介绍睡眠和情绪状态之间关系的基础知识，或者一个人调节自己情绪的能力。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

This is an area of work that we've been interested in and doing a lot of research on for about 20 or so years now.

这是我们大约 20 年来一直感兴趣并进行了大量研究的工作领域。

And I would say that probably the most striking statement I can offer up front is the following: in that 20 years of research, we have not been able to discover a single psychiatric condition in which sleep is normal.

我想说的是，我能首先提出的最引人注目的陈述可能是：在这 20 年的研究中，我们未能发现任何一种睡眠正常的精神疾病。

And to me, it has taught me everything that I need to know about this very intimate, bi-directional relationship between your sleep health and your mental health.

对我来说，它教会了我关于睡眠健康和心理健康之间非常亲密的双向关系所需了解的一切。

And you're right to emphasize that notion of mental health, because we're not just going to speak about some of the sort of challenging aspects of sleep and psychiatric disorders, but we'll speak about some of the benefits that sleep can provide when you get it to turn the tables, and we move in the direction not of mental illness, but we move in the direction of mental wellness.

你强调心理健康的概念是正确的，因为我们不仅要谈论睡眠和精神疾病的一些具有挑战性的方面，而且我们还会谈论睡眠在扭转局面时可以提供的一些好处，我们不是朝着精神疾病的方向前进，而是朝着精神健康的方向前进。

So I'm excited to sort of make sure that I don't fall prey to that.

所以我很高兴能确保我不会成为这种情况的牺牲品。

Stepping back still, though, what about this relationship between just sleep and our basic emotional regulation and our emotional stability?

不过，退一步来说，睡眠与我们的基本情绪调节和情绪稳定性之间的关系又如何呢？

I'm sure everyone has seen the example or had the example as a parent of that parent holding a child, and the child is crying, and they look at you and they say, "Well, they just didn't sleep well last night." As if there's some miraculous parental knowledge that bad sleep the night before equals bad mood and emotional reactivity and regulation the next day.

我相信每个人都看过这个例子，或者有过这样的例子：父母抱着孩子，孩子在哭，他们看着你说，“好吧，他们只是昨晚没睡好。”好像有一些神奇的父母知识，前一天晚上睡不好就等于第二天心情不好、情绪反应和调节不好。

And some years ago now, we were fascinated by this, but we couldn't really unearth basic science that would help us explain what was going on and why that was so clearly the case.

几年前，我们对此很着迷，但我们无法真正挖掘基础科学来帮助我们解释正在发生的事情以及为什么情况如此明显。

So we did an initial study where we took a group of healthy people, no signs of psychiatric illness or emotional instability, and we gave them a full night of sleep, or we sleep deprived them.

因此，我们做了一项初步研究，选取了一群健康的人，没有精神疾病或情绪不稳定的迹象，我们让他们睡一整晚，或者剥夺他们的睡眠。

And then the next day, we put them inside of a brain scanner.

第二天，我们将它们放入脑部扫描仪中。

And we showed them a whole range of emotional visual images, ranging from very neutral all the way up to quite unpleasant and negative.

我们向他们展示了一系列情感视觉图像，从非常中性一直到非常不愉快和消极。

And we were looking at how the brain was reacting to those emotional experiences with versus without sleep.

我们正在研究大脑在睡眠和不睡眠的情况下对这些情绪体验的反应。

And the structure that we'd initially focused on was a structure that you've spoken about before called the amygdala, and you actually have one on the left and the right side of your brain.

我们最初关注的结构是你之前提到过的一种叫做杏仁核的结构，实际上你大脑的左右两侧都有一个结构。

And the amygdala is the centerpiece region for the generation of emotional reactions, both positive and negative.

杏仁核是产生积极和消极情绪反应的核心区域。

But here, we're focusing on that aversive, that negative aspect.

但在这里，我们关注的是令人厌恶的、消极的方面。

And when we looked at that structure in people who are sleep deprived, what we saw relative to the people who'd had a full night of sleep was a 60%, 6-0, a 60% increase in amygdala responsivity under conditions of sleep deprivation.

当我们观察睡眠不足的人的这种结构时，我们发现，与睡了一整夜的人相比，在睡眠不足的情况下，杏仁核的反应性增加了 60%、6-0、60%。

That is quite a striking amplification.

这是一个相当惊人的放大。

In fact, we, to that date with all of our studies on sleep and sleep loss, had not quite seen an effect size within the brain that was that big.

事实上，迄今为止，我们对睡眠和睡眠不足的所有研究都还没有看到大脑内的影响有那么大。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Sorry to interrupt, but just to make sure that everyone's on the same page.

抱歉打扰，但只是为了确保每个人都在同一页面上。

So people are being shown images with varying degrees of emotionality, including images that are known to evoke negative, averse emotions, as we call them in the laboratory.

因此，人们会看到带有不同程度情绪的图像，包括已知会引起负面、厌恶情绪的图像，正如我们在实验室中所说的那样。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

That's correct.

这是正确的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Could be feelings of fear, anger, disgust, revulsion, whatever.

可能是恐惧、愤怒、厌恶、反感等感觉。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Negative valence.

负价。

Was it the case that sleep deprivation increased the activity in the amygdala to such images by 60% only for the aversive images or for, let's say, a neutral image presented to somebody who has had plenty of quality sleep?

睡眠不足是否会导致杏仁核的活动增加 60%，仅针对令人厌恶的图像，还是针对呈现给睡眠充足的人的中性图像？

Let's say it is, I'm making up the units here, gives us two out of 10 units of amygdala activation.

假设是这样，我在这里组成单位，为我们提供十分之二的杏仁核激活单位。

This isn't the way neuroscience is done, but for sake of discussion, is it the case then that that neutral image would provide a six out of 10 level of activation, or was it only for aversive images?

这不是神经科学的工作方式，但为了讨论，中性图像是否会提供十分之六的激活水平，或者仅适用于厌恶图像？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

So the way we did the analysis first was we used almost a correlation approach.

因此，我们首先进行分析的方式几乎是使用相关方法。

So we sort of told the brain imaging analysis to say, "Look, here are the ratings of these pictures, and they go from very neutral to increasingly negative and aversive, and show me what in the brain is reacting to that curve, that gradient curve." And sure enough, you've got the magnitude overall was 60%.

所以我们告诉大脑成像分析说，“看，这是这些图片的评级，它们从非常中立到越来越消极和厌恶，并向我展示大脑对那条曲线、那条梯度曲线的反应。”果然，总体震级为 60%。

But it's a very interesting point that you make, because where the amygdala started to respond and that responsivity started to hook up in the activation and the sort of aggravation direction was much earlier in the curve of emotionality.

但这是你提出的一个非常有趣的观点，因为杏仁核开始做出反应的地方，并且反应性开始与激活挂钩，并且这种恶化方向在情绪曲线中要早得多。

In other words, things that previously, when you've had a good night of sleep, do not feel particularly emotional, started to become rather emotional when you are not getting sufficient sleep.

换句话说，以前当你睡了一晚好觉时，不会感到特别情绪化的事情，当你睡眠不足时，就会开始变得相当情绪化。

So it heightened the sensitivity of the initial triggering of the emotional response, and then the more emotional it became, the more separate those two sort of reactivity curves became from the amygdala when you had sleep versus when you had not sleep, or had not slept, I should say.

因此，它提高了最初触发情绪反应的敏感性，然后它变得越情绪化，我应该说，当你睡觉时与当你没有睡觉或没有睡觉时，这两种反应曲线与杏仁核的分离程度就越大。

To us then, the question became, well, why?

对我们来说，问题变成了，为什么？

Why is the amygdala so reactive and uncontrolled when you are absent sleep?

当你睡眠不足时，为什么杏仁核会如此反应且不受控制？

And we did another analysis, and what we found was that there was a structure in your frontal lobe, and the frontal lobe just sits directly, sort of if you think about your eyes and you go directly up, you're in your frontal lobe.

我们做了另一项分析，我们发现你的额叶中有一个结构，额叶直接位于，如果你想到你的眼睛并且直接向上，你就在你的额叶中。

And it was a particular part of the frontal lobe, the middle part that sits right between your eyes, something that we call the medial prefrontal cortex.

它是额叶的一个特殊部分，位于眼睛之间的中间部分，我们称之为内侧前额叶皮层。

And what we found was that with a night of sleep, the medial prefrontal cortex was strongly connected to the amygdala.

我们发现，经过一晚的睡眠，内侧前额叶皮层与杏仁核紧密相连。

Why is that important?

为什么这很重要？

It's because that part of your frontal lobe is very good at acting like a control, rational mechanism on your deep, it's not Neanderthal, but your deep emotional brain centers.

这是因为你额叶的那部分非常擅长充当你内心深处的控制、理性机制，它不是尼安德特人，而是你深层的情感大脑中心。

But without sleep, we found out that connection had been severed.

但还没睡，我们就发现联系被切断了。

And so it was almost as though without sleep, you become all emotional gas pedal and too little regulatory control break.

因此，几乎就好像没有睡眠，你就会变得情绪化，监管控制也太少。

And so you couldn't modulate those emotions anywhere near as effectively.

所以你无法有效地调节这些情绪。

Now, some people may say, "Well, hang on a second, Hugh.

现在，有些人可能会说：“好吧，等一下，休。

That was a total night of sleep deprivation, and that's not really relevant for me because I don't sleep enough." I know that from all of the previous episodes that I've gone through here, hopefully, if you've listened to them.

那是一个彻夜睡眠不足的夜晚，这对我来说并不重要，因为我睡眠不足。”我希望从我之前听过的所有剧集中知道这一点，如果你听过的话。

But I'm usually maybe getting five or six hours of sleep.

但我通常会睡五六个小时。

Is this really relevant?

这真的相关吗？

So we started doing that study.

所以我们开始做这项研究。

We wanted to say, let's do what we call an ecological study, a more of a real-world sleep restriction rather than total deprivation.

我们想说，让我们进行所谓的生态研究，更多的是现实世界的睡眠限制，而不是完全剥夺。

And we were about halfway through that study when a wonderful Japanese research group essentially published the study that we were doing.

当我们的研究进行到一半时，一个出色的日本研究小组基本上发表了我们正在进行的研究。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And what was great is that they did it even in a more rigorous way.

很棒的是他们甚至以更严格的方式做到了这一点。

And essentially what they were able to do is replicate exactly what we'd found, but now by putting people on less than six hours of sleep for five nights.

本质上，他们能够做的就是完全复制我们的发现，但现在让人们五个晚上的睡眠时间少于六个小时。

And sure enough, you got the same response.

果然，你得到了同样的回应。

So that was very clear to us that there is some sensitivity, there's a reason why you become so unbuckled emotionally when you are not getting sufficient sleep.

因此，我们非常清楚，存在一定的敏感性，当您睡眠不足时，您会在情绪上变得如此放肆，这是有原因的。

It's the reason that you have almost this sort of erratic, pendulum-like sort of responsivity when you're not getting sufficient sleep.

这就是为什么当你睡眠不足时，你的反应会变得不稳定、像钟摆一样。

That notion of, I just snapped, dot, dot, dot.

我只是突然意识到，点，点，点。

Or you apologize and you say, "Look, I am so sorry I just bit your head off.

或者你道歉并说：“听着，我很抱歉我刚刚咬掉了你的头。

I just haven't been getting enough sleep." And so we could start to understand what in the brain was happening when you didn't get sleep.

我只是没有睡够。”这样我们就可以开始了解当你不睡觉时大脑中发生了什么。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's such an important finding for a couple of reasons that maybe we can explore.

这是一个如此重要的发现，有几个原因也许我们可以探讨一下。

Previously on the podcast, we had a guest doctor, he's a neurosurgeon, Matt MacDougall.

之前在播客上，我们有一位客座医生，他是一位神经外科医生，马特·麦克杜格尔。

He's the lead neurosurgeon at Neuralink.

他是 Neuralink 的首席神经外科医生。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

He came up through Stanford, works on deep brain stimulation, et cetera.

他毕业于斯坦福大学，从事深部脑刺激等研究。

And I love his description of what the prefrontal cortex does.

我喜欢他对前额皮质功能的描述。

It jibes perfectly with the way you describe it, which is he said the main function of the prefrontal cortex is to say, "Shh" to specific brain areas under specific contexts.

这与你描述的方式完全吻合，他说前额叶皮层的主要功能是在特定情况下对特定大脑区域说“嘘”。

So, the shh, of course, is his way of describing neural inhibition, so quieting of neural activity in certain brain circuits under certain conditions.

因此，“嘘”当然是他描述神经抑制的方式，即在某些条件下某些大脑回路中的神经活动安静下来。

Because there are conditions under which you want your amygdala activation to be very robust, fast, and there's time for protecting oneself, maybe even certain situations for swift violent action to protect your family, et cetera.

因为在某些情况下，您希望杏仁核激活非常强劲、快速，并且有时间保护自己，甚至可能在某些情况下采取迅速的暴力行动来保护您的家人，等等。

But the prefrontal cortex seems to be able to hold it in mind, so to speak, what the context is under which that would be appropriate-

但前额叶皮层似乎能够牢记这一点，可以说，在什么背景下才合适——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

versus when it would be inappropriate.

与不合适的情况相比。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And a great example of that people can think of, if all of a sudden a gun is pointed in your face, you would want your amygdala to react if it's in the real world.

人们可以想到一个很好的例子，如果突然有一把枪指着你的脸，你会希望你的杏仁核做出反应，如果它是在现实世界中的话。

But if you're at the movie theaters and you see a gun pointed in your face, your amygdala doesn't really react as much.

但如果你在电影院，看到一把枪指着你的脸，你的杏仁核就不会真正做出反应。

Why?

为什么？

Because your prefrontal cortex understood the word that you described, which is context.

因为你的前额叶皮层理解你所描述的词，即上下文。

But in some ways, it seems as though you become almost regressed to this more basic, fundamental, elemental emotional brain, and the red mist descends, and you really can't see much more because your prefrontal cortex seems to be absent.

但在某些方面，你似乎几乎回归到这个更基本、更根本、更基本的情感大脑，红色的迷雾降临，你真的看不到更多东西，因为你的前额叶皮层似乎不存在了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

You become very reflex driven.

你会变得非常反射驱动。

And we don't want to go out too far a tangent on prefrontal cortex, but one of the most beautiful descriptions of prefrontal cortex I ever heard was also from a colleague, Eric Knudsen, at Stanford, who's now retired, but does beautiful work on neuroplasticity.

我们不想在前额叶皮层上走得太远，但我听过的对前额叶皮层最美丽的描述之一也是来自斯坦福大学的同事埃里克·克努森（Eric Knudsen），他现已退休，但在神经可塑性方面做出了出色的工作。

And he described how when people or animals have lesions to certain regions of the prefrontal cortex, they become stimulus-driven machines, such that if you go like this to a puppy or to baby, they'll look to the snapping finger.

他描述了当人或动物的前额皮质某些区域受到损伤时，他们会变成刺激驱动的机器，这样如果你像这样对待小狗或婴儿，他们就会看着打响指的声音。

But at some point, we all learn that there must be a reason for us to follow the snapping of the fingers in different locations in space.

但在某些时候，我们都知道，我们必须有一个理由去跟随空间中不同位置的打响指。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Uh-huh.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But with prefrontal damage, people and animals just become like machines.

但由于前额叶受损，人和动物就变得像机器一样。

Whatever stimulus is there, they orient to, and this has implications for ADHD, et cetera.

无论有什么刺激，他们都会倾向于，这对多动症等有影响。

One of the things that I wanted to ask about to take us back to the specific relationship between sleep, reduced medial prefrontal activity, and emotionality, is this feeling when we're sleep deprived that certain things just grate on us a bit more.

为了让我们回到睡眠、内侧前额叶活动减少和情绪之间的具体关系，我想问的一件事是，当我们睡眠不足时，某些事情只会让我们更加烦恼。

I had this experience recently.

我最近就有这样的经历。

Unfortunately, there was a night where I didn't get much sleep at all, and then the next day I was on a phone call, and the person I was talking to I'm quite fond of, but they had a lot of energy, and they were talking, they were kind of coming at me with a bunch of stuff that they wanted to-- And it just felt like it was grating on my system.

不幸的是，有一个晚上我根本没睡多少觉，然后第二天我接到电话，和我谈话的那个人是我很喜欢的，但他们精力充沛，他们在说话，他们好像带着一堆他们想要的东西来找我——感觉就像是我的系统感到刺耳。

And I knew, because I was sleep deprived, that they were entirely well-meaning, and so you just kind of resist.

我知道，因为我睡眠不足，他们完全是善意的，所以你只是抗拒。

But it's incredible how cold water, loud noises, requests of our time, things like that become very irritating and they grate on us-

但令人难以置信的是，冰冷的水、巨大的噪音、我们时代的要求，诸如此类的事情变得非常令人恼火，它们让我们感到恼火——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

when we're sleep deprived.

当我们睡眠不足时。

Whereas when we're rested, it's like, oh yeah, okay, they're talking kind of fast or kind of loud.

而当我们休息时，就像，哦，是的，好吧，他们说话有点快或有点响亮。

Okay, somebody is requesting something else, I'll put it in my list, or maybe I'll defer to later.

好吧，有人要求别的东西，我会把它放在我的列表中，或者也许我会推迟到以后。

Or the cold shower that feels like, ugh, got to get over this threshold to get into.

或者冷水淋浴，感觉就像，呃，必须跨过这个门槛才能进入。

When you're rested, you're like, all right, let's do this.

当你休息的时候，你会想，好吧，让我们开始吧。

Right?

正确的？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Maybe even, let's go.

也许甚至，我们走吧。

I'm excited for it.

我对此感到兴奋。

But when you're tired, oof, it is as if the brain is fighting for any sense of peace it can possibly get, and that peace is interrupted by almost anything and everything.

但当你累了的时候，噢，大脑似乎正在为它可能获得的任何平静感而战，而这种平静几乎会被任何事情打断。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

It is a grim situation, and we've certainly heard that from patients and individuals.

这是一个严峻的形势，我们当然从患者和个人那里听到了这样的说法。

It's almost as though the world that they are experiencing, they look at and they say, "You know what?

这几乎就像他们正在经历的世界，他们看着并说，“你知道吗？

You're in at 11, and I need you at a seven right now." It is just too much.

你 11 点钟到，我现在 7 点钟需要你。”实在是太多了。

And this comes back to that result that we described, that when the amygdala crosses the threshold and says, "Okay, things are getting emotional, things are getting unpleasant.

这又回到了我们所描述的结果，即当杏仁核跨过阈值并说：“好吧，事情变得情绪化，事情变得不愉快。

I'm going to be responding negatively in an angry way or a fearful way," that starts much earlier.

我会以愤怒或恐惧的方式做出消极反应，”这很早就开始了。

So the threshold for triggering your emotional aversive reaction is much lower, and that's why the person's voice when you hear it, at first normally if you had a great night of sleep, you'd say, "Gosh, you know what?

因此，触发你的情绪厌恶反应的阈值要低得多，这就是为什么当你听到这个人的声音时，通常情况下，如果你睡了一晚好觉，你会说，“天哪，你知道吗？

Today I really love your energy.

今天我真的很喜欢你的能量。

It's so infectious." Versus a day when you're not sleeping, you just think, "I'm lifting my earbuds out of my ears because I don't know if I can take this much longer." And so that was where we were able to manipulate sleep one way, which is to say I dial sleep down, and then I look at the emotional brain, and you can see this ramping up of the emotional reactivity in these basic kind of guttural centers.

它太有感染力了。”而当你不睡觉的时候，你只是想，“我把耳塞从耳朵里拿出来，因为我不知道我是否可以花这么长时间。”因此，这就是我们能够以一种方式操纵睡眠的地方，也就是说，我降低睡眠时间，然后我观察情绪大脑，你可以看到这些基本类型的喉音中心的情绪反应性不断增强。

But then we wanted to do the inverse.

但后来我们想做相反的事情。

We wanted to instead see if we could insert sleep back in, in other words, manipulate sleep and dial it back up.

相反，我们想看看是否可以重新插入睡眠，换句话说，操纵睡眠并将其重新调回。

Could you get a dissipation in the emotional reaction?

你的情绪反应能得到消散吗？

And here we decided to throw a second ingredient into the equation, not just simply looking at your emotional reactivity, but we wanted to look at emotional memory.

在这里，我们决定在方程式中加入第二个因素，不仅仅是简单地观察你的情绪反应，而且我们想观察情绪记忆。

Now, in a previous episode, we've spoken a lot about sleep and memory, but there we were speaking about really quite neutral memory, textbook-like memory, fact-based memory.

现在，在上一集中，我们谈论了很多关于睡眠和记忆的内容，但我们谈论的是非常中性的记忆，教科书般的记忆，基于事实的记忆。

Emotional memory is very different.

情感记忆是非常不同的。

And if I were to ask you, Andrew, cast your mind back to some of your earliest childhood memories or your teen memories, and if anyone listening were to do that, my guess is that almost all of the memories that you recall are memories of an emotional nature, positive or negative.

如果我问你，安德鲁，让你的思绪回到你最早的童年记忆或青少年时期的记忆，如果有人听着这样做，我猜你回忆起的几乎所有记忆都是情感性质的记忆，无论是积极的还是消极的。

Why is that?

这是为什么呢？

It's because one of the functions of emotions when it comes to memory is to red flag and prioritize that experience, that memory, as being salient because it's emotional, and that instructs the brain that this information in particular is very relevant to us as an organism.

这是因为，当涉及到记忆时，情绪的功能之一就是对这种经历、记忆进行危险标记并优先考虑，因为它是情绪性的，所以它是显着的，并且指示大脑这些信息特别与我们作为一个有机体非常相关。

Why?

为什么？

Because the rest of the brain is shouting at me, this is emotional.

因为大脑的其余部分正在对我大喊大叫，这是情绪化的。

So there is something very privileged and very special about an emotional memory, like a red flag that tags it for priority in the brain.

因此，情感记忆有一些非常特权和非常特殊的东西，就像一个红旗，在大脑中标记它为优先级。

But something I started to notice when I would read the data, both the neural data and the subjective data on emotional memory, led me to get very interested in what happens with emotional memories over time.

但当我阅读数据时，我开始注意到一些事情，包括神经数据和情绪记忆的主观数据，这让我对情绪记忆随着时间的推移会发生什么非常感兴趣。

Because what you will hear is that if I were to ask you, recall an emotional memory, just try to remember it, my guess is that now at the time of recollection, much later on, you are not having the same regurgitation of the same visceral emotional reaction that you had at the time of the experience.

因为你会听到的是，如果我问你，回忆一段情感记忆，试着记住它，我的猜测是，现在在回忆的时候，很久以后，你不会再像经历时那样反省同样的本能情感反应。

What that sort of turned a light bulb moment on for me was that somewhere between the initial experience and the later recollection of that emotional memory, the brain has done a very clever trick.

这让我灵光一现，在最初的经历和后来回忆起的情感记忆之间，大脑做了一个非常聪明的把戏。

It has divorced the emotion from the memory.

它把情感与记忆分开了。

So now when you come to recollect that emotional memory, let's say days later or even months later, in some ways, it is a memory of an emotional event, but it is no longer as powerfully emotional itself as it was at the time of the experience.

所以现在当你回忆起这段情感记忆时，比如说几天后甚至几个月后，在某些方面，它是一个情感事件的记忆，但它本身不再像经历时那样具有强烈的情感性。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And I started to wonder, is that time, or is that time asleep?

我开始想，是那个时间，还是那个时间睡着了？

So we did a study, and we had people experience these emotional memories, sort of essentially make emotional memories, and they were doing it inside of a scanner.

所以我们做了一项研究，让人们体验这些情感记忆，本质上是产生情感记忆，他们是在扫描仪内进行的。

And then we gave them a night of sleep or even a nap, and then we brought them back, or we just had them learn those emotional memories in the morning and then bring them back after an identical amount of time to try to soften those emotional memories, but without sleep.

然后我们让他们睡一晚，甚至小睡一会儿，然后我们把他们带回来，或者我们只是让他们在早上学习那些情感记忆，然后在相同的时间后把它们带回来，试图软化这些情感记忆，但不睡觉。

And we put them back in the scanner, and we were able to look to see when you come back later in that second session, and you recollect those experiences and you relive them, is the emotional reactivity at that second session any different to the first session, and is that different if that time elapsed has contained a full night of sleep versus you've just been awake?

我们把它们放回扫描仪中，我们能够观察当你在第二次会议稍后回来时，你会回忆起这些经历并重温它们，第二次会议的情绪反应与第一次会议有什么不同，如果经过一整夜的睡眠与你刚刚醒来的时间相比，这会有所不同吗？

And what we found is that in those people who remained awake across the day, having had those emotional memories essentially implanted, implanted sounds a little bit sort of Big Brother, I don't mean it that way, but they'd learned them The amygdala was just still as responsive as they were recalling and reliving and re-experiencing those emotional memories.

我们发现，在那些整天保持清醒的人身上，这些情感记忆基本上被植入了，植入的声音有点像老大哥，我不是那个意思，但他们知道，杏仁核仍然像他们回忆、重温和重新体验那些情感记忆一样反应灵敏。

But in those people who had the same amount of time to process the memories but had had a full night of sleep, we saw this incredible emotional amygdala depotentiation.

但在那些有相同时间处理记忆但睡了一整夜的人身上，我们看到了令人难以置信的杏仁核情感衰退。

And what that taught me was that the sleeping brain was able to almost detox the emotional memory.

这告诉我，睡眠中的大脑几乎能够排毒情绪记忆。

Think about it like an informational orange, that the emotional memory has this bitter emotional rind around it, and then you've got the informational orange in the middle.

把它想象成一个信息橙子，情感记忆的周围有一层苦涩的情感外皮，然后你就在中间得到了信息橙子。

And what sleep was doing was stripping the bitter emotional rind off the informational orange, so that then when you came back the next day, again, it is now a memory of an emotional event, but it's no longer triggering that strong visceral reaction.

睡眠所做的就是剥去信息橙子上苦涩的情感外皮，这样当你第二天回来时，它现在再次成为一个情感事件的记忆，但它不再触发强烈的内脏反应。

In other words, and we describe this theory as something called overnight forgetting, which is that when it comes to an emotional memory, you both sleep to forget and sleep to remember, respectively, which is that you sleep to remember the information, the memory of the experience, but it is no longer emotional itself.

换句话说，我们把这个理论描述为所谓的一夜遗忘，也就是说，当涉及到情感记忆时，你睡觉是为了忘记，睡觉是为了记住，也就是说，你睡觉是为了记住信息，记忆经历，但它不再是情感本身。

And from there, we built a biological model of exactly how this works, because when we looked at the sleep group who'd had that full eight-hour opportunity, we asked the question, because we'd measured their sleep, what is it about that sleep that seems to provide this form of, it's almost overnight therapy?

从那时起，我们建立了一个生物学模型来准确说明其工作原理，因为当我们观察有完整八小时机会的睡眠组时，我们问了一个问题，因为我们测量了他们的睡眠，那么睡眠似乎提供了这种形式的睡眠，这几乎是一整夜的治疗？

How is it doing that?

它是怎么做到的？

What stage of sleep is doing that?

睡眠的哪个阶段会出现这种情况？

And sure enough, what we found was that it was REM sleep, rapid eye movement sleep associated with dreaming, and the greater the amount of REM sleep, the greater the amount of emotional depotentiation, the greater the amount of sort of emotional detox that you got the next day.

果然，我们发现这是快速眼动睡眠，即与做梦相关的快速眼动睡眠，快速眼动睡眠的时间越长，情绪衰退的程度就越大，第二天你获得的情绪排毒的程度也就越多。

And one of the fascinating things that we didn't quite mention in the episode where we described what is sleep, and we described the different stages, including REM, and we spoke about the brain changes.

在这一集中，我们没有完全提到一件令人着迷的事情，我们描述了什么是睡眠，我们描述了不同的阶段，包括快速眼动，我们还谈到了大脑的变化。

Something utterly unique happens during REM sleep.

快速眼动睡眠期间会发生一些完全独特的事情。

Levels of a brain chemical called noradrenaline are completely shut off.

大脑中一种叫做去甲肾上腺素的化学物质的水平完全关闭。

It is the only time during the 24-hour period when you see the complete cessation of noradrenaline in the brain.

这是 24 小时内唯一一次您看到大脑中去甲肾上腺素完全停止的情况。

And of course, noradrenaline is associated with many different functions.

当然，去甲肾上腺素与许多不同的功能相关。

You've elegantly described them.

你已经优雅地描述了它们。

One of the functions is that it's associated with emotional responsivity and the focus and that sort of strong sort of emotional energy.

其中一个功能是它与情绪反应、焦点以及那种强烈的情绪能量相关。

And people will know we speak about, it has two names, noradrenaline or norepinephrine, same thing, US, UK, but people, of course, are familiar with the sister chemical in the body called adrenaline.

人们会知道我们所说的，它有两个名字，去甲肾上腺素或去甲肾上腺素，同样的东西，美国，英国，但人们当然熟悉体内称为肾上腺素的姊妹化学物质。

Upstairs in the brain, we can think about noradrenaline.

在大脑的上层，我们可以想到去甲肾上腺素。

And during REM sleep, noradrenaline is completely shut off, this stress-associated neurochemical.

在快速眼动睡眠期间，去甲肾上腺素完全关闭，这种与压力相关的神经化学物质。

It's not only associated with stress, but it's associated with lots of things, but stress included.

它不仅与压力有关，而且与很多事情有关，但也包括压力。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Isn't noradrenaline shut off in the brain and body during rapid eye movement sleep?

在快速动眼睡眠期间，大脑和身体中的去甲肾上腺素是否会被关闭？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

No, it's not.

不，不是。

It seems to be specifically within the brain that there is this blockade of noradrenaline, and serotonin goes down, too, whereas another chemical called acetylcholine, which is another neurotransmitter, that ramps up in the brain.

似乎特别是在大脑中，去甲肾上腺素受到这种阻断，血清素也会下降，而另一种称为乙酰胆碱的化学物质（另一种神经递质）在大脑中会增加。

So if there is a brain chemical that seems to be underlying REM sleep or dream sleep, it seems to be acetylcholine.

因此，如果有一种大脑化学物质似乎是快速眼动睡眠或梦睡眠的基础，那么它似乎就是乙酰胆碱。

And in fact, in some parts of the brain, you can see almost a 30% greater amount of acetylcholine in some brain regions than when we're awake.

事实上，在大脑的某些部分，您可以看到某些大脑区域的乙酰胆碱含量比我们清醒时高出近 30%。

Yet, on the other hand, when we think about noradrenaline and serotonin, they are both shut off.

然而，另一方面，当我们想到去甲肾上腺素和血清素时，它们都被关闭了。

So the stress-related chemical within the brain is switched off during REM sleep.

因此，在快速眼动睡眠期间，大脑内与压力相关的化学物质会被关闭。

However, if you look at other parts of the brain, the memory-related centers of the brain, such as the hippocampus that we've spoken about before, and the amygdala that I just mentioned, too, those are very active during REM sleep.

然而，如果你观察大脑的其他部分，大脑中与记忆相关的中心，比如我们之前谈到的海马体，以及我刚才提到的杏仁核，它们在快速眼动睡眠期间非常活跃。

So we laid out this biological model that is almost beautiful, that REM sleep is this perfect condition for emotional overnight therapy, where you can reactivate and sort of experience and reprocess those emotional memories, but you're doing it in a neurochemically, quote-unquote, safe environment that allows you to strip away the emotion from the memory.

所以我们提出了这个近乎美丽的生物模型，快速眼动睡眠是情绪夜间治疗的完美条件，你可以重新激活、体验并重新处理那些情绪记忆，但你是在一个神经化学的、不言而喻的、安全的环境中进行的，可以让你从记忆中剥离情绪。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。

AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also contains adaptogens and is designed to meet all of your foundational nutritional needs.

AG1 是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮料，还含有适应原，旨在满足您的所有基本营养需求。

By now, I'm sure you've all heard me say that I've been taking AG1 since 2012, and indeed, that is true.

到现在为止，我相信你们都听我说过，我从 2012 年就开始服用 AG1，确实如此。

Now, of course, I do consume regular whole foods every day.

当然，现在我每天都会定期食用天然食品。

I strive to get those foods mostly from unprocessed or minimally processed sources.

我努力从未加工或最低限度加工的来源获取这些食物。

However, I do find it hard to get enough servings of fruits and vegetables each day.

然而，我确实发现每天很难获得足够的水果和蔬菜。

So with AG1, I ensure that I get enough of the vitamins, minerals, prebiotic fiber, and other things typically found in fruits or vegetables, and of course, I still make sure to eat fruits and vegetables, and in that way, provide a sort of insurance that I'm getting enough of what I need.

因此，通过 AG1，我确保获得足够的维生素、矿物质、益生元纤维以及水果或蔬菜中常见的其他物质，当然，我仍然确保吃水果和蔬菜，这样就提供了一种保证，确保我获得了足够的所需物质。

In addition, the adaptogens and other micronutrients in AG1 really help buffer against stress and ensure that the cells and organs and tissues of my body are getting the things they need.

此外，AG1 中的适应原和其他微量营养素确实有助于缓冲压力，并确保我身体的细胞、器官和组织得到它们所需的东西。

People often ask me that if they were going to take just one supplement, what that supplement should be, and I always answer AG1.

人们经常问我，如果他们只服用一种补充剂，该补充剂应该是什么，我总是回答 AG1。

If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.

如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。

You'll get five free travel packs plus a year's supply of vitamin D3 K2.

您将获得五个免费旅行包以及一年的维生素 D3 K2 供应。

Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman.

再说一遍，这是 Drinkag1.com/huberman。

In some ways, it does resemble behavioral desensitization therapy, whereby under the care of a qualified psychiatrist or psychologist, somebody will be encouraged to recall, in a great degree of detail, some very difficult, maybe even traumatic event.

在某些方面，它确实类似于行为脱敏疗法，在合格的精神病学家或心理学家的护理下，将鼓励某人详细回忆一些非常困难的，甚至可能是创伤性的事件。

And through repetition, and of course, through the knowledge that there's support in the immediate environment that will allow them to safely move through that experience, should their heart rate go up, they're sweating profusely, having trouble getting the words out.

通过重复，当然，通过知道周围环境中有支持，可以让他们安全地度过这种经历，如果他们的心率上升，他们就会大汗淋漓，难以说出话来。

Those are very unfortunately common features of trauma and negative memories.

不幸的是，这些都是创伤和负面记忆的常见特征。

But the idea, as I understand, is to repeat the recall many times often in that safe environment, such that eventually what was initially a really terrible event remains a terrible event, but the emotional load of that event is removed from the person's neural understanding of the event.

但据我了解，这个想法是在安全的环境中多次重复回忆，这样最终最初的真正可怕的事件仍然是可怕的事件，但该事件的情感负荷从人们对该事件的神经理解中消除。

The way I've heard it described is what starts as a tragic, traumatic story eventually becomes a kind of a sad, boring story.

我听到的描述方式是，一开始是一个悲剧性的、创伤性的故事，最终变成了一个悲伤、无聊的故事。

Boring to the person who's saying it, meaning it doesn't evoke as much autonomic arousal.

对于说这句话的人来说很无聊，这意味着它不会引起那么多的自主唤醒。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Exactly.

正是如此。

And in some ways, that's the perfect description of this overnight therapy process, that it becomes a memory that is no longer triggering an emotional reaction.

从某些方面来说，这是对这一过夜治疗过程的完美描述，它变成了一种不再引发情绪反应的记忆。

And in some ways, that's what you want.

在某些方面，这就是您想要的。

If you go back to my description from an evolutionary perspective, I told you that one of the functions of emotions is to red flag and prioritize the memory at the time of learning to say that it's important.

如果你从进化的角度回到我的描述，我告诉过你，情绪的功能之一是在学习说它很重要时发出警告并优先考虑记忆。

That's a very adaptive process.

这是一个非常适应性的过程。

It helps us prioritize which things we really should be focusing on and remembering.

它帮助我们优先考虑哪些事情是我们真正应该关注和记住的。

But it's not adaptive for you to hold onto that emotion long term once you've stored it.

但一旦你储存了这种情绪，你就不适合长期保留它。

And there has been some suggestion in the literature before we were doing this work that maybe one thing you can do with trauma and trauma memories is sleep deprive individuals the very first night after the trauma, because we knew at the time sleep is important for memory.

在我们进行这项工作之前，文献中已经有一些建议，也许你可以对创伤和创伤记忆做的一件事是在创伤后的第一个晚上剥夺个人的睡眠，因为我们当时知道睡眠对记忆很重要。

And what you would like to do, and it's very similar to that movie, "Sunshine Spotless Mind." I always forget the-

而你想做的事情，和那部电影《阳光一尘不染》很相似。我总是忘记——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

"Eternals"

《永恒者》

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

...

"Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind." Thank you.

“一尘不染的心灵的永恒阳光。”谢谢你。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I didn't see the movie, but I hear it's good.

我没看过这部电影，但听说很好看。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

And what they try to do is target in the brain these difficult, painful experiences and just excise them from the brain.

他们试图做的就是在大脑中瞄准这些困难、痛苦的经历，然后将它们从大脑中切除。

And that was the suggestion, could you pop those memories out of the biography of that individual and save them the trauma?

这就是建议，你能把那些记忆从那个人的传记中剔除出来，让他们免受创伤吗？

I would argue that's not really what you want to do, because let's say that I have a trauma experience where I was walking home at night from the sleep laboratory late at night, and I was coming down kind of an alley to take a shortcut, and someone sticks me up with a gun, maybe some violence.

我认为这并不是你真正想做的事，因为假设我有一次创伤经历，当时我深夜从睡眠实验室步行回家，我正沿着一条小巷走近路，有人用枪指着我，也许是一些暴力。

I don't want to remove that memory.

我不想删除那段记忆。

I would like to remove the trauma response associated with that memory.

我想消除与该记忆相关的创伤反应。

But I would argue for me as an organism, it's still very important for me to remember that that alley was associated with a bad experience, and I should forego going down that very same route again.

但我会为我作为一个有机体辩护，记住那条小巷与一次糟糕的经历有关，对我来说仍然非常重要，我应该放弃再次走那条同样的路线。

I want to hold onto the memory, the information.

我想保留记忆、信息。

I want to let go of the emotion.

我想放下感情。

I want to sleep to remember, and I want to sleep to forget.

我想睡觉来记住，我想睡觉来忘记。

And I'll come onto why I think that's relevant to PTSD when we perhaps speak about that condition, and it's very relevant.

当我们谈论创伤后应激障碍时，我会解释为什么我认为这与创伤后应激障碍有关，而且它非常相关。

But coming back to REM sleep, we looked back in the literature to see if we could find signs that REM sleep had this relationship with even just your basic emotional reactivity, and there was some wonderful work by a gentleman that you will know from Stanford, probably one of the founding fathers of modern-day sleep research, a gentleman called William Dement.

但回到快速眼动睡眠，我们回顾了文献，看看我们是否能找到迹象表明快速眼动睡眠甚至与你的基本情绪反应也有这种关系，你会知道斯坦福大学的一位绅士做了一些精彩的工作，他可能是现代睡眠研究的创始人之一，一位名叫威廉·德门特的绅士。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, who passed away a few years ago.

是啊，几年前就去世了。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

He did.

他做到了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Might've been one of the people who coined the term rapid eye movement sleep, but I don't think he was the one who discovered it, correct?

可能是创造快速眼动睡眠一词的人之一，但我不认为他是发现它的人，对吗？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

He was not, but he was well up there in terms of understanding both sort of what its term was and also what its function was.

他不是，但他在理解它的术语是什么以及它的功能是什么方面都处于领先地位。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

He, legend as he was, very early on, this was probably in the '60s, he would take individuals, because we didn't really have the first published report of these two types of sleep, of REM and non-REM, until they collected the data or found the data in 1953.

尽管他是个传奇人物，但很早的时候，这可能是在 60 年代，他会以个人为对象，因为我们并没有真正发表关于这两种类型的睡眠（快速眼动睡眠和非快速眼动睡眠）的第一份报告，直到他们在 1953 年收集数据或发现数据。

It was published in 1954.

该书于 1954 年出版。

So in other words, we discovered that even up to then, prior to then, we just thought sleep was sleep.

换句话说，我们发现，即使在那之前，在那之前，我们也只是认为睡眠就是睡眠。

We didn't have any knowledge that there were these different stages.

我们不知道有这些不同的阶段。

So in the same year that Francis Crick unveiled this incredible helical structure that was called a DNA strand, we also discovered the different stages of sleep.

因此，在弗朗西斯·克里克 (Francis Crick) 揭示了这种令人难以置信的螺旋结构（称为 DNA 链）的同一年，我们还发现了睡眠的不同阶段。

But in the '60s then, William Dement, knowing that there were these two types of sleep and knowing that there was something that was going on with REM sleep where people were dreaming, and he would be waking people up from these different stages and found that it's far more likely for people to report a dream.

但在 20 世纪 60 年代，威廉·德门特（William Dement）知道存在这两种类型的睡眠，并且知道在快速眼动睡眠中人们做梦时会发生一些事情，他会将人们从这些不同的阶段叫醒，并发现人们更有可能报告做梦。

He wondered what the consequence would be if you selectively deprive people of this stage of sleep, of dream sleep.

他想知道如果你有选择地剥夺人们这个阶段的睡眠，也就是做梦的睡眠，会产生什么后果。

So he brought individuals into his laboratory, and every time they would go into REM sleep, they would go into the room, they would wake them up, have them do some mathematical problems for two or three minutes, and then put them back asleep, and they'd go back into non-REM.

所以他把人们带进他的实验室，每次他们进入快速眼动睡眠时，他们都会进入房间，把他们叫醒，让他们做一些数学问题两三分钟，然后让他们重新入睡，然后他们就会回到非快速眼动睡眠。

And then as soon as they went back into REM, they would wake them up again.

然后，一旦他们回到快速眼动睡眠状态，他们就会再次醒来。

And the first night, they would have to go into the room maybe six or seven times.

第一晚，他们可能要进房间六七次。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Still brutal for the-

仍然残酷地——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Brutal

残酷

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

for the person in the experiment.

对于实验中的人来说。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

It's not too much fun.

这不太有趣。

But by the end of The five days or six days, I think they were going back into the room something like 17, 18 times.

但到五天或六天结束时，我认为他们会回到房间大约 17、18 次。

Why?

为什么？

Because the people were building up this growing REM sleep debt, and the brain had such a hunger for it that by night five of no REM sleep, all it wanted to do was rocket into this thing called REM sleep and start devouring it with high volume.

因为人们正在积累这种不断增长的快速眼动睡眠债务，而大脑对此非常渴望，以至于到了第五个没有快速眼动睡眠的晚上，它想做的就是迅速进入这种称为快速眼动睡眠的状态，并开始大量吞噬它。

But that wasn't the interesting part.

但这不是有趣的部分。

The interesting part was the consequence to these subjects.

有趣的部分是这些主题的后果。

They were all well-adjusted, perfectly normal individuals.

他们都是适应良好、完全正常的人。

By about day three of selective REM sleep deprivation, they started to show signs of paranoia.

大约在选择性快速眼动睡眠剥夺的第三天，他们开始表现出偏执的迹象。

They started to believe people were out after them.

他们开始相信有人在追杀他们。

They started to have hallucinations and delusions.

他们开始产生幻觉和妄想。

And by day five, they were bordering on having aspects of quite severe psychosis.

到了第五天，他们已经接近出现相当严重的精神病。

And so what all of this research has taught us in some ways is that it's almost as though REM sleep, and again, it's hyperbolic, is the difference between sanity versus insanity.

因此，所有这些研究在某种程度上告诉我们，快速眼动睡眠几乎就像快速眼动睡眠一样，而且它是双曲线的，是理智与精神错乱之间的区别。

It's the thing that separates those two.

这是将两者分开的东西。

And there's a wonderful quote from an American entrepreneur called E.

一位名叫 E 的美国企业家曾说过一句精彩的话。

Joseph Cossman.

约瑟夫·科斯曼.

And for all of the years of work that we've been doing in this field, and I've spilled so much ink over this, including in the book, he summarized it in a single sentence.

对于我们多年来在这个领域所做的工作，我在这方面投入了很多笔墨，包括在书中，他用一句话总结了这一点。

"The best bridge between despair and hope is a good night of sleep." And that's exactly what the data is demonstrating in terms of basic emotional brain function.

“绝望与希望之间最好的桥梁就是睡个好觉。”这正是数据在基本情绪大脑功能方面所展示的内容。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Such a powerful link there, and I think it's appropriate therefore, if we explore a little bit about what the link actually consists of in a way that will provide people a kind of a compass for when they're feeling a little bit less emotionally regulated or if they would like to improve their levels of emotion regulation.

那里有如此强大的联系，因此，我认为如果我们稍微探讨一下这种联系的实际组成，当人们感觉情绪调节能力较差或希望提高情绪调节水平时，为人们提供一种指南针，我认为这是适当的。

This is going to be a little bit of an exploration, but you may recall this is an exploration that you and I had some years ago when we were talking about the relationship between rapid eye movement sleep and emotionality.

这将是一个小小的探索，但你可能还记得这是几年前你和我在讨论快速眼动睡眠和情绪之间的关系时进行的一次探索。

And here you've described that the medial prefrontal cortex normally plays this kind of shh role, this suppressive role over the amygdala under conditions where there is something to consider, is it averse?

在这里，你描述了内侧前额叶皮层通常扮演着这种“嘘”的角色，在需要考虑某些事情的情况下，这种对杏仁核的抑制作用，是不是令人厌恶？

Is it not averse?

不是很反感吗？

How averse is it, right?

这是多么的厌恶，对吧？

But in terms of what we know about stress and emotion, the autonomic nervous system, this incredible system that balances sympathetic, meaning alertness, arousal, sometimes called the fight or flight system, and parasympathetic activation, sometimes called the rest and digest system.

但就我们对压力和情绪的了解而言，自主神经系统是平衡交感神经（即警觉性）、唤醒（有时称为战斗或逃跑系统）和副交感神经激活（有时称为休息和消化系统）的令人难以置信的系统。

It's the balance of the two that dictates one's emotional state and alertness, level of stress, et cetera.

两者的平衡决定了一个人的情绪状态、警觉性、压力水平等。

And I've always imagined the autonomic nervous system, the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system, as sort of a seesaw.

我一直把自主神经系统、交感神经系统和副交感神经系统想象成一种跷跷板。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But on this seesaw sits us, right?

但我们坐在这个跷跷板上，对吗？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And we can move back and forth across this seesaw, but there's a component of the seesaw that in my mental model, which is the hinge, how tight the seesaw is, meaning how easily or how challenging it is to tilt the seesaw to one or the other side.

我们可以在这个跷跷板上来回移动，但在我的心智模型中，跷跷板有一个组成部分，那就是铰链，跷跷板的紧程度，意味着将跷跷板向一侧或另一侧倾斜有多容易或有多大挑战性。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I don't know if the mechanism has been discovered, but I feel like what happens under conditions of REM deprivation or sleep deprivation, that is sleep deprivation, but you've beautifully described how it's REM deprivation in particular that can do this, that the hinge becomes loose.

我不知道这个机制是否已经被发现，但我觉得在快速眼动剥夺或睡眠剥夺的情况下会发生什么，那就是睡眠剥夺，但你已经很好地描述了快速眼动剥夺是如何做到这一点的，尤其是铰链变得松动。

But the hinge doesn't become loose toward us becoming more parasympathetic and relaxed.

但铰链并不会因为我们变得更加副交感神经和放松而松动。

There's an asymmetry there.

那里存在不对称性。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's as if the seesaw now wants to flop to sympathetic activation until we're so exhausted that we just disappear into sleep.

就好像跷跷板现在想要翻转到交感神经激活，直到我们精疲力尽，以至于我们消失在睡眠中。

So the question is this, and maybe all we have here is opportunity for speculation, but is there any understanding of what the hinge might be and how sleep would adjust the tightness of that hinge?

所以问题是这样的，也许我们在这里所拥有的只是猜测的机会，但是对于铰链可能是什么以及睡眠如何调节铰链的松紧度是否有任何了解？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And if people are following this, what we're really trying to get to is, you described a neural circuit mechanism within the brain, but is this, for instance, the gating of the release of epinephrine, adrenaline, and cortisol?

如果人们遵循这一点，我们真正想要了解的是，你描述了大脑内的神经回路机制，但这是否是肾上腺素、肾上腺素和皮质醇释放的门控？

I could imagine that's regulated by the brain, but when we're deprived of REM sleep, that process becomes less poorly gated, and then we just will punch out a bunch of adrenaline in response to a phone call from a close friend that you adore, but as their voice is just a little bit loud, and you're like, "Ugh, this is rough."

我可以想象这是由大脑调节的，但是当我们被剥夺了快速眼动睡眠时，这个过程的门控就会变得不那么糟糕，然后我们就会在接到你喜欢的密友的电话时释放出大量的肾上腺素，但因为他们的声音有点低d，你会说，“呃，这太粗糙了。”

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Et cetera.

等等。

Do we understand the nature of the hinge?

我们了解铰链的本质吗？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

We do a little bit, and it's something that we started off trying to test with one specific belief, and then we were beautifully course-corrected by the data.

我们做了一点点，我们开始尝试用一个特定的信念来测试它，然后我们通过数据完美地纠正了方向。

We thought that the hinge was going to be once you were sleep-deprived, and you started to slide down into that fight or flight branch, the more sympathetic and away from the parasympathetic, that the hinge would get ever tighter the further into that sympathetic stress-related fight or flight dip that you had, and there you would stay.

我们认为，一旦你睡眠不足，铰链就会变得越来越紧，你开始滑入战斗或逃跑分支，交感神经越多，越远离副交感神经，铰链就会变得越来越紧，你所经历的交感压力相关的战斗或逃跑下降越深，你就会留在那里。

It wasn't quite that simple.

事情没那么简单。

What we found was that when I challenge you or put you either under a very simple cardiovascular challenge, let's say I'm just having you grip a bar for a long period of time, or we have you under some other, maybe even if it's an exercise regiment.

我们发现，当我挑战你或让你接受非常简单的心血管挑战时，假设我只是让你长时间握住杠铃，或者我们让你接受其他挑战，即使是一个锻炼团。

When you are in a sleep-deprived state, and you are largely inert and not interacting with the world, you actually are in a more strong parasympathetic state.

当你处于睡眠不足的状态，并且你基本上没有活力并且不与世界互动时，你实际上处于更强烈的副交感神经状态。

It's almost as though you do not want to interact with the world per se, and this comes onto motivation.

就好像你不想与世界本身互动，这就会产生动机。

We and others have found that one of the earliest and strongest effects of a lack of sleep is just absence of motivation.

我们和其他人发现，睡眠不足最早也是最严重的影响之一就是缺乏动力。

I don't want to interact with the world.

我不想和这个世界交往。

I don't want to be social.

我不想社交。

I don't want to learn.

我不想学习。

I don't want to exert effort.

我不想费力气。

I don't want to exercise.

我不想运动。

I just don't want to do much of anything.

我只是不想做太多事情。

However, when you provoke me and you force me to interact, or there is a very strong emotional event that I experience, I go all the way over into the strongly sympathetic.

然而，当你激怒我并强迫我互动时，或者我经历了非常强烈的情感事件时，我就会完全陷入强烈的同情心。

So it's almost as though we had the prediction that it was going to be a very tight hinge, and the screw was tightening the more sympathetic you became.

因此，就好像我们预测这将是一个非常紧的铰链，而且你变得越有同情心，螺丝就会越紧。

It was much more that you were in this sort of parasympathetic state, this sort of non-motivational state.

更重要的是你处于这种副交感神经状态，这种非动机状态。

And the hinge was so loose, however, that even just the tiniest flick of a challenge, whoosh, you went straight over to the sympathetic.

然而，铰链太松了，即使是最微小的挑战，嗖嗖地，你也会直接走向同情。

There was no sweet spot of a tightening where you were nicely balancing between those two states.

没有收紧的最佳点，可以很好地平衡这两种状态。

And this comes back to something else that we found.

这又回到了我们发现的其他事情。

That's you switching, flip-flopping back and forth between parasympathetic and sympathetic.

这就是你在副交感神经和交感神经之间来回切换。

I spoke about the emotional reactivity to negative aversive events, but that's only one half of what we call the affective valence domain.

我谈到了对负面厌恶事件的情绪反应，但这只是我们所说的情感效价域的一半。

It's not just that you can have negative emotional reactions.

这不仅仅是你会产生负面情绪反应。

Of course, you can have positive emotional reactions.

当然，你可以有积极的情绪反应。

So we did a sister study to that amygdala study, and we asked, rather than showing you increasingly negative images and how your amygdala would respond much more strongly to those as we provoked it, we then started to show you much more positive, rewarding images.

因此，我们对杏仁核研究进行了一项姊妹研究，我们要求，我们不再向您展示越来越负面的图像以及当我们激发它时您的杏仁核如何对这些图像做出更强烈的反应，而是开始向您展示更加积极、有益的图像。

And because one hypothesis would be that you just simply slide down the scale and you move towards more negative and away from more reward-based reactivity.

因为一种假设是，你只是简单地降低等级，你就会变得更加消极，远离更多基于奖励的反应。

Or you could imagine that it's both, that when you are sleep deprived, you are equally excessively reactive to both of those domains.

或者你可以想象两者都是，当你睡眠不足时，你对这两个领域同样过度反应。

And what we found was that it was the latter, that you were very abnormally reactive, overreactive to negative events, but you were equally hypersensitive to very reward-based stimuli, and this fits beautifully with what we know from sleep deprivation.

我们发现是后者，你对负面事件反应非常异常、过度反应，但你对基于奖励的刺激同样高度敏感，这与我们从睡眠剥夺中了解到的情况非常吻合。

You are much more impulsive.

你比较冲动。

You are much more reward seeking.

你更加寻求回报。

You are much greater in terms of your sensation seeking.

就感觉寻求而言，你要强大得多。

And your addiction potential when you are not getting sufficient sleep is significantly higher.

当你睡眠不足时，你的成瘾潜力会明显更高。

And sure enough, when we looked in the brain, many of these dopamine-related circuits that you've described before were overactive when you are underslept.

果然，当我们观察大脑时，您之前描述的许多与多巴胺相关的回路在您睡眠不足时都会过度活跃。

And so I bring this back because it relates to your seesaw sort of analogy.

所以我把这个带回来，因为它与你的跷跷板类比有关。

Yes, you can think about the seesaw with sleep deprivation from a sympathetic, parasympathetic.

是的，你可以从交感神经、副交感神经的角度思考睡眠剥夺的跷跷板。

You can also think about it from a positive versus negative valence.

您还可以从正价与负价的角度来思考它。

And once again, our hypothesis was that you're just going to slide down into the negative, and you're just going to be less responsive to the rewarding positive.

再一次，我们的假设是，你只会陷入消极的状态，而且你只会对积极的回报反应减弱。

It was the opposite.

事实恰恰相反。

You were abnormally and excessively sensitive to both of those domains, which you could argue is perhaps the very worst of all adaptive responses.

你对这两个领域都异常且过度敏感，你可以说这可能是所有适应性反应中最糟糕的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

As an organism, you don't want to be non-reactive.

作为一个有机体，您不想不做出反应。

Emotions are powerful, and we've spoken about the benefits.

情绪是强大的，我们已经谈到了它的好处。

You need to have emotions to be a functioning human being or organism in the world.

你需要有情感才能成为世界上一个正常运作的人类或有机体。

They are designed to adaptively help us survive, but you can't go to the extremes.

它们旨在适应性地帮助我们生存，但你不能走极端。

That's maladaptive rather than adaptive, but that's where you go when you are sleep deprived.

这是适应不良而不是适应性，但这就是当你睡眠不足时你会去的地方。

It's this loose hinge, and you become very, very erratically and extremely reactive from a neural perspective.

正是这个松动的铰链，从神经的角度来看，你变得非常非常不稳定且极其敏感。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Yeah, my understanding is that sleep deprivation definitely increases impulsivity and addictive potential.

是的，我的理解是，睡眠不足肯定会增加冲动和成瘾的可能性。

Yeah, so worst of both worlds in this case.

是的，在这种情况下，两全其美。

And given that, now would probably be an appropriate time to just cue people to some of the things that they can do to improve or maximize their rapid eye movement sleep.

鉴于此，现在可能是一个适当的时机来提示人们可以做一些事情来改善或最大化他们的快速眼动睡眠。

This was covered in detail in episodes one and two, and to some extent in episodes three and four as well but they're in reference to other things, learning, memory, creativity, the role of naps, et cetera.

第一集和第二集详细介绍了这一点，第三集和第四集在某种程度上也详细介绍了这一点，但它们涉及其他事物，例如学习、记忆、创造力、小睡的作用等等。

And I'll refer people back to this beautiful formula, QQRT, that it's not just about getting enough sleep, it's about the quantity indeed, but also the quality, QQ, regularity, and timing of sleep.

我会让人们回顾一下这个美丽的公式，QQRT，它不仅仅是关于获得足够的睡眠，它确实与数量有关，而且还与睡眠的质量、QQ、规律性和时间有关。

And knowing one's chronotype, that is, the best time to go to bed and the best time to wake up in the morning for them is going to be critical here.

了解一个人的生物钟，即上床睡觉的最佳时间和早上起床的最佳时间，对于他们来说至关重要。

And I can raise my hand, I'll raise both hands in fact metaphorically, and say that when I've gone to sleep early and woken up early, so for me, 8:39 p.m.

我可以举手，事实上我会举起双手，比喻说，当我早睡早起时，所以对我来说，晚上 8:39。

and then waking up at 4:35 a.m., which for me matches my chronotype, it has served as a powerful antidepressant effect.

然后在凌晨 4:35 醒来，这对我来说符合我的生物钟类型，它具有强大的抗抑郁作用。

And when I've gotten an equal amount of sleep but going to bed too late for me, that is, midnight, 1:00 a.m.

当我获得同等睡眠量但上床睡觉对我来说太晚时，即午夜，凌晨 1:00。

and sleeping in until 8:00 or 9:00 a.m., I always carry a low level of depression.

而且睡到早上 8:00 或 9:00 时，我的抑郁程度总是较低。

Fortunately, not something that needed to be medicated, but it's a striking effect.

幸运的是，这不是需要药物治疗的东西，但效果却很惊人。

In the positive direction when Obeying QQRT and in the negative direction when not.

遵守QQRT时为正方向，不遵守QQRT时为负方向。

So maybe because we can provide some links to those segments in the show note captions, but maybe just for people that are here now, if we were going to list out two or three things that one can do to try and maximize the quality and quantity of REM sleep, without going on too much of a tangent, but at the same time, we do want to highlight that addressing that QQRT formula for ourselves is going to be critical.

所以也许是因为我们可以在节目说明文字中提供一些指向这些部分的链接，但也许只是为了现在在这里的人们，如果我们要列出两三件事，以尝试最大限度地提高快速眼动睡眠的质量和数量，而不需要太多的离题，但同时，我们确实想强调，为我们自己解决 QQRT 公式将是至关重要的。

So maybe for REM sleep-

所以也许对于快速眼动睡眠来说——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

in the domain of exercise, temperature, et cetera, are there any kind of quick bullet points that we can refer people to?

在运动、温度等领域，是否有任何类型的快速要点可供我们参考？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

I would say, just to keep it high level and brief, the single best way, cheapest, non-pharmacological way that you can enhance your REM sleep is to just sleep an extra 15 or 20 minutes later into the morning.

我想说的是，为了保持高水平和简短，增强快速眼动睡眠的最好、最便宜、非药物的方法就是早上多睡 15 或 20 分钟。

By the way, this is about the quantity, your sleep opportunity.

顺便说一下，这与数量、睡眠机会有关。

Don't try to add that 30 minutes or 20 minutes if your goal is to increase REM sleep at the start of the night, at the front end.

如果您的目标是在晚上开始时增加快速眼动睡眠，请不要尝试增加 30 分钟或 20 分钟。

Instead, take that desire that I've offered you of adding just 20 minutes or 25 minutes of extra sleep now to the last part of your night.

相反，请接受我向您提出的愿望，即在您晚上的最后一段时间里增加 20 分钟或 25 分钟的额外睡眠。

Wake up that much later, 20, 25 minutes later.

很晚才醒来，二十、二十五分钟后。

That's the REM sleep rich phase.

这就是快速眼动睡眠丰富的阶段。

So if people go back and listen to episode one, we'll describe to you exactly how the different stages of sleep unfold across the night, and they're not evenly distributed.

因此，如果人们回去听第一集，我们将向您准确描述睡眠的不同阶段是如何在整个晚上展开的，而且它们的分布并不均匀。

It's not as though you get just as much REM sleep as well as deep non-REM sleep in the first half of the night as you do in the second.

前半夜的快速眼动睡眠和深度非快速眼动睡眠并不像后半夜一样多。

You get most of your deep sleep in the first half, and you get most of your REM sleep in the second half, and particularly in the last quarter of the night.

您的大部分深度睡眠是在前半段，而您的大部分快速眼动睡眠是在后半段，特别是在晚上的最后一刻。

And this leads us to understand that the later into the morning hours that we go, the greater the hunger preference and the taste desire there is of your brain to start sampling from the finger buffet of all of those different stages, this thing called REM sleep.

这让我们明白，早上越晚，你的大脑就越有饥饿偏好和味觉欲望，开始从所有这些不同阶段的手指自助餐中取样，这就是所谓的快速眼动睡眠。

And the later that you sleep into the morning, the more of that REM sleep that you will have.

你睡到早上的时间越晚，你的快速眼动睡眠就越多。

And many people will have experienced this at the weekend, where they have this pattern that we don't recommend based on the QQRT.

很多人都会在周末经历过这种情况，他们有这种我们根据 QQRT 不推荐的模式。

QQR, regularity, go to bed at the same time, wake up at the same time.

QQR，有规律，同一时间睡觉，同一时间起床。

What we see often in society is something what we call social jet lag, where you're short sleeping during the week, and then at the weekend, you're out with friends, or you're out sort of on the town.

我们在社会上经常看到的是所谓的社交时差，即你在一周内睡眠不足，然后在周末，你和朋友出去，或者你在城里。

You go to bed late, and you wake up late.

你睡得很晚，起床也很晚。

And maybe you're doing that by two hours.

也许你会在两个小时前完成这件事。

Maybe you're normally in bed by 10:00 PM during the week, but now at the weekends, you're going to sleep maybe 12:00, 12:30, and you're waking up two, three hours later on a Saturday and Sunday.

也许您通常在工作日晚上 10:00 就上床睡觉，但现在到了周末，您可能会在 12:00、12:30 睡觉，而在周六和周日，您会晚两、三个小时醒来。

And then the problem with that, parenthetically, is on Sunday evening, you've now got to go back to work the next day, so you have to push yourself back to 10:30 or 10:00, whereas you were going to bed, let's say, at 1:00 AM on Friday and Saturday night.

顺便说一句，问题是在周日晚上，你现在必须在第二天回去工作，所以你必须把自己推回到 10:30 或 10:00，而你本打算在周五和周六晚上的凌晨 1:00 睡觉。

That's a three-hour time shift, and people are doing that very frequently.

这是一个三个小时的时间轮班，人们非常频繁地这样做。

That's the equivalent of you and I flying back and forth from Los Angeles to New York every single weekend in terms of our circadian rhythm, and it's brutal on it.

就我们的昼夜节律而言，这相当于你和我每个周末从洛杉矶到纽约来回飞行，这对我们来说是残酷的。

But this is separate from this notion of your timing, the final part of the QQRT.

但这与您的计时概念（QQRT 的最后部分）是分开的。

And by pushing your timing a little bit later into the morning when you wake up, you will experience more REM sleep.

通过将起床时间推迟到早上，您将体验到更多的快速眼动睡眠。

And as I said, when people sleep later, they go to bed later at night, and they wake up much later in the morning at the weekend, I strongly suspect that if they paid attention, they would say, "At weekends, I always dream more.

正如我所说，当人们睡得晚、晚上睡得晚、周末早上起得晚得多时，我强烈怀疑，如果他们注意的话，他们会说，“在周末，我总是做更多梦。

I can remember my dreams, and they're more intense." It's not because there's something magical about how your memory recollection of dreams operates on Saturdays and Sundays.

我能记得我的梦，而且它们更加强烈。”这并不是因为周六和周日你对梦的记忆有什么神奇的运作方式。

It's because you've slept in later, you've gone into that REM sleep rich preferential phase in the morning, and therefore, you've increased your REM sleep.

这是因为你睡得比较晚，早上进入了快速眼动睡眠丰富的优先阶段，因此，你增加了快速眼动睡眠。

So I would say that that's probably the easiest way that you can start to modulate REM sleep.

所以我想说，这可能是开始调节快速眼动睡眠的最简单方法。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So that's a terrific do, and I think we can probably summarize the top don't as don't drink alcohol because it abolishes REM sleep.

所以这是一个了不起的做法，我想我们可以将最不该做的事情总结为不要喝酒，因为它会破坏快速眼动睡眠。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Alcohol and THC are both very potent ways that will remove or obliterate your REM sleep, and we spoke about this in the episode on THC when we discussed this.

酒精和 THC 都是消除或消除快速眼动睡眠的非常有效的方法，我们在 THC 的剧集中讨论这一点时谈到了这一点。

I think just yesterday, I got a very long email, and I'm sure you get lots of emails from delightful people in the public, and a gentleman just saying, "I was using cannabis for probably about seven years, and then I watched or listened to some of your content, and I stopped, and I just had this explosion of dreams.

我想就在昨天，我收到了一封很长的电子邮件，我相信你会收到很多来自公众中令人愉快的人的电子邮件，一位绅士只是说，“我使用大麻可能有七年了，然后我看了或听了你的一些内容，然后我停了下来，我刚刚有了这个梦想的爆发。

And I was never recollecting any of my dreams before, but now they came back, and goodness, were they vivid.

我以前从来不记得我做过的任何梦，但现在它们又回来了，天哪，它们是那么生动。

They were rich.

他们很富有。

And I could not believe it."

我简直不敢相信。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And that's REM sleep.

这就是快速眼动睡眠。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And that's because during the cannabis use, by way of the THC, not the CBD, you've been blocking that REM sleep.

这是因为在使用大麻期间，通过 THC（而不是 CBD），您一直在阻碍快速眼动睡眠。

You've built up that pressure, just as we described in the demand studies.

正如我们在需求研究中所描述的那样，您已经积累了这种压力。

And then when you finally do take away the agent that is blocking the generation of REM sleep, the THC, all of a sudden your brain doesn't just go back to having its standard amount of REM sleep and dreaming.

然后，当你最终去掉阻碍快速眼动睡眠生成的物质 THC 时，突然之间，你的大脑不再恢复正常的快速眼动睡眠和做梦状态。

It has that, plus it tries to get back as much of it as it possibly can by Having what we call a REM sleep rebound, and that's why people when they stop using, they end up having this intense REM sleep.

它具有这一点，而且它试图通过我们所说的快速眼动睡眠反弹来尽可能多地恢复它，这就是为什么人们在停止使用时，最终会经历这种强烈的快速眼动睡眠。

By the way, to your point about reward and addiction sensitivity with sleep deprivation, one of the things that we did in a collaboration, gosh, this was years ago when I was at Harvard with Carl Hart, who I don't know if you-

顺便说一句，关于你关于奖励和成瘾敏感性与睡眠剥夺的观点，这是我们合作所做的事情之一，天哪，这是几年前我和卡尔·哈特一起在哈佛的时候，我不知道你是否-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

At Columbia, yeah.

在哥伦比亚，是的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah, at Columbia.

是的，在哥伦比亚。

You know him.

你认识他。

Yeah, he's a fantastic researcher, a very interesting man, too.

是的，他是一位出色的研究员，也是一位非常有趣的人。

And what we found was that a lack of sleep was not only predictive of your addiction potential, but when you went into a clinic to abstain and trying to come off some of those, and here we were looking at cocaine addiction, a lack of sleep was a strong predictor of your abstinence and you falling off the wagon and going back to your...

我们发现，睡眠不足不仅预示着你的成瘾潜力，而且当你去诊所戒毒并试图摆脱其中的一些时，这里我们正在研究可卡因成瘾，缺乏睡眠是你戒毒的强烈预测因素，你会从马车上掉下来并回到你的……

So sleep is so critical, not just for maintaining or pushing you away from that addiction potential, but once you are addicted and you're trying to abstain, it gives you that lift of altitude to try to resist falling off the wagon.

因此，睡眠非常重要，不仅可以维持或促使您摆脱成瘾的可能性，而且一旦您上瘾并试图戒掉，它就会给您带来高度的提升，以试图抵制从马车上摔下来。

And when sleep gets short, that's when you become vulnerable again, probably because your reward circuitry becomes enhanced, and all of a sudden you just cannot resist the temptation anymore.

当睡眠时间变短时，你就会再次变得脆弱，可能是因为你的奖励回路增强了，突然之间你就再也无法抗拒诱惑了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I want to take a brief break and acknowledge our sponsor, InsideTracker.

我想短暂休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 InsideTracker。

InsideTracker is a personalized nutrition platform that analyzes data from your blood and DNA to help you better understand your body and help you reach your health goals.

InsideTracker 是一个个性化营养平台，可分析您的血液和 DNA 数据，帮助您更好地了解您的身体并帮助您实现健康目标。

Now, I've long been a believer in getting regular blood work done for the simple reason that many of the factors that impact your immediate and long-term health can only be analyzed from a quality blood test.

现在，我长期以来一直相信定期进行血液检查，原因很简单，影响您当前和长期健康的许多因素只能通过高质量的血液测试来分析。

The problem with a lot of blood tests out there, however, is that you get information back about metabolic factors, hormones, et cetera, but you don't know what to do with that information.

然而，大量血液测试的问题在于，您得到有关代谢因素、激素等的信息，但您不知道如何处理这些信息。

With InsideTracker, they make it very easy to understand your results, and they also point you to specific directives that you can follow in the realm of nutrition, exercise, supplementation, even prescription drugs that can help bring the levels back into the ranges that are optimal for you.

借助 InsideTracker，您可以轻松了解您的结果，并且还为您提供在营养、锻炼、补充剂甚至处方药领域可以遵循的具体指示，以帮助将水平恢复到最适合您的范围。

InsideTracker also offers InsideTracker Pro, which enables coaches and health professionals to provide premium and personalized services by leveraging InsideTracker's analysis and recommendations with their clients.

InsideTracker 还提供 InsideTracker Pro，使教练和健康专业人员能够利用 InsideTracker 的分析和向客户提供的建议来提供优质和个性化的服务。

If you'd like to try InsideTracker, you can go to insidetracker.com/huberman to get 20% off any of InsideTracker's plans.

如果您想尝试 InsideTracker，您可以访问 insidetracker.com/huberman，享受任何 InsideTracker 计划 20% 的折扣。

Again, that's insidetracker.com/huberman.

同样，这是 insidetracker.com/huberman。

I think the takeaway is very clear.

我认为要点非常明确。

In order to be your best emotional self, that is, in order to be able to access positive emotions to their full amplitude, motivation, learning, as we also covered in a previous episode, but also to stay out of those irritable emotional traps of life, and to be a regulated person, calm and joyful person, it stands to reason to minimize alcohol and cannabis use unless there's some, I don't know, medical reason why someone should do otherwise.

为了成为你最好的情感自我，也就是说，为了能够充分发挥积极的情绪、动力、学习，正如我们在上一集中也介绍过的那样，而且为了远离生活中那些烦躁的情绪陷阱，并成为一个有规律的人、冷静和快乐的人，有理由尽量减少酒精和大麻的使用，除非有一些我不知道的医学原因为什么有人应该这样做。

But the real take-home message here is get as much rapid eye movement sleep as possible, and don't do anything to inhibit it.

但这里真正重要的信息是尽可能多地进行快速眼动睡眠，并且不要做任何事情来抑制它。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah, get as much sleep.

是的，尽量多睡觉。

So focus on all of those four macros of sleep: quantity, quality, regularity, and timing.

因此，请关注睡眠的四个宏观因素：数量、质量、规律性和时间。

And notice that if you want to try to optimize some of that emotional reactivity and balance, you may want to slightly over-index on your REM sleep in that regard, and one easy, cheap way of doing that, if you can, lifestyle permitting, and again, of course, I understand everyone has a life to live and pressures, but that's the way that if you were to ask me, can you do it and do it simply?

请注意，如果你想尝试优化一些情绪反应和平衡，你可能需要在这方面稍微过度调整你的快速眼动睡眠，如果可以的话，在生活方式允许的情况下，有一种简单、便宜的方法可以做到这一点，当然，我理解每个人都有自己的生活和压力，但这就是如果你问我，你能做到吗？

Yes, you probably can.

是的，你可能可以。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Great.

太棒了。

You touched on trauma a little bit already, but now would be the appropriate time, I think, to talk about PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder.

您已经稍微谈到了创伤，但我认为现在是谈论 PTSD（创伤后应激障碍）的合适时机。

Which I think we can use the definition of PTSD and trauma that the great Paul Conti, a former guest on this podcast who also did an expert series-

我认为我们可以使用伟大的保罗·康蒂（Paul Conti）对创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）和创伤的定义，他是这个播客的前嘉宾，他也做了一个专家系列——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

What a wonderful, epic man.

多么美妙、史诗般的男人啊。

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, an incredible man.

是的，一个不可思议的人。

What a mind on him, and what a generosity of sharing information in clear ways about mental health, as he did in the four-episode series on mental health here, and he's been on other podcasts as well.

他是多么有想法，多么慷慨地以明确的方式分享有关心理健康的信息，就像他在这里的四集心理健康系列节目中所做的那样，而且他也在其他播客上做过。

Wrote a marvelous book on trauma.

写了一本关于创伤的精彩书。

Paul defined trauma as some event that is aversive, that changes the way that our nervous system works such that we function less well in the future.

保罗将创伤定义为一些令人厌恶的事件，它改变了我们神经系统的工作方式，使我们在未来的功能变得不太好。

It's not that every negative event, every negative emotion, associated memory is trauma.

并不是每一个负面事件、每一个负面情绪、相关记忆都是创伤。

I think that's a misconception.

我认为这是一个误解。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But there are things that happen to people or that they observe happening to other people.

但有些事情发生在人们身上，或者他们观察到发生在其他人身上。

So there's first-person trauma, third-person observational trauma, et cetera.

所以有第一人称创伤、第三人称观察创伤等等。

And these can be single events, multiple events.

这些可以是单个事件，也可以是多个事件。

Sadly, this stuff happens.

可悲的是，这样的事情发生了。

It can be neglect, so sometimes it's the absence of an event, right?

这可能是疏忽，所以有时是因为没有发生某件事，对吗？

Which becomes the traumatic event, that fundamentally rewire some component of neural circuitry such that we don't function as well in terms of relationship to anything, work, food, sex, sleep, relationships, baseline levels of emotionality, and on and on.

这成为了创伤性事件，从根本上重新连接了神经回路的某些组成部分，使我们在与任何事物的关系、工作、食物、性、睡眠、人际关系、情绪基线水平等等方面都无法正常运作。

So what is the relationship between sleep and post-traumatic stress disorder specifically?

那么睡眠和创伤后应激障碍之间具体有什么关系呢？

I think some of what we've covered already certainly touches on this.

我认为我们已经讨论过的一些内容肯定涉及到这一点。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But PTSD seems to me that it might be its own unique case.

但在我看来，创伤后应激障碍可能是其独特的案例。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

It is, because if you look at the diagnostic criteria for PTSD, firstly, you see sleep disturbance.

这是因为，如果你查看 PTSD 的诊断标准，首先你会看到睡眠障碍。

And as I said right at the top of this episode, there is no major psychiatric disorder where there isn't some mention of sleep problems in its diagnostic criteria.

正如我在本集开头所说的那样，没有一种重大精神疾病的诊断标准中没有提及睡眠问题。

But something else was intriguing about PTSD that compelled me to think about it and then create a theory around it.

但创伤后应激障碍还有其他一些有趣的地方，迫使我思考它，然后围绕它创建一个理论。

It's not just sleep problems, it's also nightmares And specifically repetitive nightmares.

这不仅仅是睡眠问题，还有噩梦，特别是重复的噩梦。

In fact, repetitive nightmares form part of the diagnostic criteria for you to receive a diagnosis of PTSD.

事实上，重复做噩梦是诊断 PTSD 的诊断标准的一部分。

That's how reliable they are.

这就是他们的可靠性。

And as I thought more about this model of overnight therapy, this notion that sleep, and particularly REM sleep, provides a form of emotional first aid, PTSD stood out to me as something that I had to return to, to explain.

当我更多地思考这种夜间治疗模式，这种睡眠，特别是快速眼动睡眠，提供了一种情感急救的方式时，创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）对我来说是一个我必须回到并解释的东西。

Why?

为什么？

Because if you think about PTSD and a veteran, it is the perfect example of the process that I described of emotional depotentiation failing.

因为如果你想想创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）和退伍军人，这就是我所描述的情绪衰弱失败过程的完美例子。

Because what I started to realize is that in PTSD, there is this trauma experience, and then perhaps what's happening is that sleep, the brain goes back to sleep that night and says, "Okay, please do your elegant trick of stripping away the emotion from the memory," and it fails.

因为我开始意识到，在创伤后应激障碍中，有这种创伤经历，然后也许发生的事情是睡眠，大脑在那天晚上重新入睡并说，“好吧，请做你优雅的把戏，从记忆中剥离情绪”，但它失败了。

So then what happens the next night?

那么第二天晚上会发生什么呢？

The brain comes back and says, "I'm sorry, but I still got this very emotionally charged memory.

大脑回过头来说：“对不起，但我仍然保留着这段充满情感的记忆。

Please do your elegant dissipation, depotentiation of the emotion from the memory," and it fails again.

请优雅地消散，从记忆中消除情感”，但它再次失败了。

Almost like this broken record that was so indicative of these repetitive nightmares.

几乎就像这张破纪录一样，它表明了这些重复的噩梦。

And then when you looked at PTSD, I told you that REM sleep is a time of this remarkable decrease in noradrenaline.

然后，当您查看 PTSD 时，我告诉您，快速眼动睡眠是去甲肾上腺素显着下降的时期。

But if you look at PTSD patients, they actually have heightened levels of noradrenaline, and also in the body adrenaline as well.

但如果你观察创伤后应激障碍患者，你会发现他们的去甲肾上腺素水平实际上很高，体内的肾上腺素水平也很高。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In sleep?

在睡觉吗？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

In sleep, and also when you look just as a basal state as well.

在睡眠中，以及当你看起来就像是基本状态时一样。

So there's something not quite right with the noradrenaline story in REM sleep in PTSD patients.

因此，创伤后应激障碍 (PTSD) 患者快速眼动睡眠中去甲肾上腺素的情况并不完全正确。

So I had just published this paper, and I was up at a conference in, I think it was Portland, and I presented the theory that all the data that we had on healthy people, and I put forward this theory of PTSD.

所以我刚刚发表了这篇论文，我参加了波特兰的一个会议，我提出了我们拥有的关于健康人的所有数据的理论，我提出了创伤后应激障碍的理论。

And then later that afternoon, a psychiatrist came on the stage called Murray Raskin, and he was working a lot with PTSD vets.

那天下午晚些时候，一位名叫穆雷·拉斯金 (Murray Raskin) 的精神科医生登上了舞台，他与创伤后应激障碍 (PTSD) 兽医进行了大量工作。

And he described data which I couldn't believe.

他描述的数据令我难以置信。

It's one of those moments, Andrew, where you're at a scientific conference, and I think it happens maybe once in a career if you're lucky.

安德鲁，这就是你参加科学会议的时刻之一，我想如果你幸运的话，这种情况在你的职业生涯中可能会发生一次。

All of the hairs on the back of my neck stood on sharp end because he was saying, "We've got this data and we don't quite understand it.

我脖子后面的汗毛都竖起来了，因为他说：“我们已经得到了这些数据，但我们不太理解它。

We've been treating our veterans for blood pressure, for hypertension, using a generic drug called prazosin." And prazosin blocks the adrenergic response in the body because you're trying to sort of tamp down that sympathetic-

我们一直在使用一种叫做哌唑嗪的仿制药来治疗退伍军人的血压。”哌唑嗪会阻断体内的肾上腺素反应，因为你试图抑制交感神经——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

...

activation in the body-

体内激活——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So it's a beta blocker?

那么它是一种β受体阻滞剂吗？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

So it's an alpha-adrenergic-

所以它是一种α-肾上腺素能-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay

好的

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

...

antagonist.

对手。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Not a beta blocker.

不是β受体阻滞剂。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

So it's not a beta blocker-

所以它不是β受体阻滞剂-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay

好的

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

...

but it's blocking the adrenergic system.

但它会阻断肾上腺素能系统。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And it's a generic, pretty cheap drug, but it turns out that it crosses the blood-brain barrier.

它是一种非常便宜的通用药物，但事实证明它可以穿过血脑屏障。

So it doesn't just stay within the body, it goes up into the brain.

所以它不仅仅停留在体内，还会进入大脑。

And he said, "We don't really understand it because I've been giving patients this medication, and it works to a degree, but something else happens.

他说：“我们并不真正理解它，因为我一直在给患者服用这种药物，它在一定程度上有效，但会发生其他情况。

They come into the clinic and they say, 'Doc, I'm not having those nightmares anymore.

他们走进诊所说，‘医生，我不再做那些噩梦了。

They seem to have gone away.' And these patients seem to start to show signs of resolution." So all of a sudden, I had had a model, a clinical model that was in search of data, and he had data that was in search of a theoretical model.

他们似乎已经走了。这些患者似乎开始表现出好转的迹象。”所以突然之间，我有了一个模型，一个正在寻找数据的临床模型，而他有一个正在寻找理论模型的数据。

I couldn't believe it because it's exactly what I would predict, which is that if noradrenaline is too high in PTSD, you're not processing and stripping the emotion from the memory, so it keeps coming back over and over like this repetitive nightmare.

我简直不敢相信，因为这正是我所预测的，那就是，如果创伤后应激障碍中的去甲肾上腺素太高，你就不会处理和从记忆中剥离情绪，所以它会像这个重复的噩梦一样一遍又一遍地出现。

But then if you block and help bring back down that level of noradrenaline to that which would be seen in a normal, healthy person, in other words, completely blocking it, all of a sudden, the emotional memory gets the chance to be processed, and you finally start to get symptom resolution.

但是，如果你阻止并帮助将去甲肾上腺素水平降低到正常健康人的水平，换句话说，完全阻止它，突然之间，情绪记忆就有机会得到处理，你最终开始得到症状解决。

So we couldn't believe it.

所以我们简直不敢相信。

He flew down to Berkeley.

他飞往伯克利。

We spent several days together.

我们一起度过了几天。

We went out to dinner.

我们出去吃晚饭。

We just could not stop talking.

我们就是无法停止说话。

He subsequently did some incredible work in this area, and prazosin went on to become an FDA-approved medication for PTSD and repetitive nightmares that was approved by the Veterans Administration.

随后他在这一领域做了一些令人难以置信的工作，哌唑嗪后来成为 FDA 批准的治疗 PTSD 和重复性噩梦的药物，并得到了退伍军人管理局的批准。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Bravo.

太棒了。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And so no, it's not me, it's all of his work.

所以不，这不是我的，这是他的全部工作。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No. You can't...

不，你不能...

No, this to me is the scientific collaborative, conceptual equivalent of the old Reese's Peanut Butter Cup commercials.

不，对我来说，这就是科学协作、概念上的等同于旧里斯花生酱杯广告。

For those of us old enough to remember, it's two people running toward one another on the beach- ...

对于我们这些年纪足够大的人来说，这是两个人在海滩上互相奔跑——......

one with a jar of peanut butter, one with a bar of chocolate, and then they crash into one another, and then they both share in the delight of the- ...

一个拿着一罐花生酱，一个拿着一块巧克力，然后他们互相撞在一起，然后他们都分享了——……

the chocolate peanut butter combination, which is an amazing combination.

巧克力花生酱组合，这是一个令人惊奇的组合。

But here, a far more important example, because it's led to clinical relief in patients with PTSD.

但这里有一个更重要的例子，因为它使创伤后应激障碍患者的临床症状得到缓解。

So I'm not making light of that at all, but this is one of the reasons to go to scientific meetings.

所以我根本没有轻视这一点，但这是参加科学会议的原因之一。

Seriously, this is one of the reasons-

说实话，这也是原因之一——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

why scientists need to talk.

为什么科学家需要说话。

This is one of the reasons to do podcasts, is it fosters hybridization of ideas, which is central to new discoveries, and in this case, a clinical discovery.

这是做播客的原因之一，因为它促进了思想的混合，这是新发现的核心，在这种情况下，是临床发现。

I have a question about this notion of blocking norepinephrine in the brain and body.

我对阻断大脑和身体去甲肾上腺素的概念有疑问。

On the one hand, it seems that during rapid eye movement sleep We know we're paralyzed, or we are paralyzed.

一方面，似乎在快速动眼睡眠期间我们知道自己瘫痪了，或者说我们已经瘫痪了。

That's a fact of rapid eye movement sleep.

这就是快速动眼睡眠的事实。

The brain is recalling memories often in great detail, sometimes through symbolic representation.

大脑通常会非常详细地回忆记忆，有时是通过符号表示。

Space-time is disrupted.

时空被打乱。

It's either faster or slower, because you're dreaming.

它要么更快或更慢，因为你在做梦。

And it seems that there's something powerful about being able to replay the memories, and yet divorce them from certain neurochemical release in the brain and body to essentially uncouple them.

能够重放这些记忆，同时又将它们与大脑和身体中某些神经化学物质的释放分开，从根本上将它们分开，似乎有一种强大的力量。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And then to me, it makes perfect sense why taking a drug that would reduce the amount of sympathetic arousal in sleep would help, especially with PTSD, because you said with PTSD, sort of an invasion of the noradrenaline response into rapid eye movement sleep that is inappropriate.

然后对我来说，为什么服用一种可以减少睡眠中交感神经兴奋程度的药物会有帮助，特别是对于创伤后应激障碍（PTSD），这是完全有道理的，因为你说对于创伤后应激障碍（PTSD），去甲肾上腺素反应会侵入快速眼动睡眠，这是不合适的。

So does that mean that rapid eye movement sleep in people with PTSD is not truly rapid eye movement sleep?

那么这是否意味着 PTSD 患者的快速眼动睡眠并不是真正的快速眼动睡眠呢？

It's as if it's been abolished and replaced with something that's kind of pseudo waking stress invaded.

就好像它被废除了，取而代之的是某种伪清醒压力入侵的东西。

It's like a zombie REM, and it's not good.

就像僵尸快速眼动，而且不好。

Is that correct?

这是正确的吗？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

It seems to be, and you can look at this in terms of the electrical activity of REM sleep, the electrical brainwaves of REM sleep in these patients, and you're right, it doesn't seem to be of the same electrical quality.

似乎是这样，你可以从快速眼动睡眠的电活动、这些患者快速眼动睡眠的脑电波的角度来看，你是对的，它似乎不具有相同的电质量。

But what was interesting in Murray Raskin's studies, when he started to treat patients with the prazosin and tamp down that noradrenaline, one of the other things that returned back to normality was not just that their symptoms dissipated, their REM sleep started to return-

但默里·拉斯金的研究中有趣的是，当他开始用哌唑嗪治疗患者并抑制去甲肾上腺素时，恢复正常的其他事情之一不仅仅是他们的症状消失，他们的快速眼动睡眠开始恢复——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm

毫米

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

...

with a greater amount.

数量更大。

And so I think it fits very well with this notion that whatever REM sleep that was going on may not necessarily have been electrically or neurochemically identical to normative REM sleep.

所以我认为这非常符合这个概念，即无论发生什么快速眼动睡眠，在电学或神经化学上都不一定与正常的快速眼动睡眠相同。

But when you assisted the system with a chemical to bring it back into normality, REM sleep was gifted back to the brain and emotional resolution started to unfold.

但当你用化学物质帮助系统恢复正常时，快速眼动睡眠就会重新回到大脑，情绪开始得到解决。

Now, I should note that there have been a number of studies that have replicated the finding.

现在，我应该指出，已经有许多研究重复了这一发现。

Some studies have not, though, and so we still need to understand exactly why this is the case.

但有些研究并没有做到这一点，因此我们仍然需要确切地了解为什么会出现这种情况。

And there are other therapies that we'll probably discuss in a later episode on dreaming that are as, if not more effective than that drug therapy for repetitive nightmares, that is a psychological intervention rather than a pharmacological intervention.

我们可能会在后面关于做梦的一集中讨论其他疗法，这些疗法即使不比针对重复噩梦的药物疗法更有效，也是一种心理干预，而不是药物干预。

And that seems to be very effective, too.

这似乎也非常有效。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In 2017, as my laboratory was starting to explore some studies on humans on fear and trauma, I visited a trauma addiction center on the East Coast.

2017年，当我的实验室开始探索一些关于人类恐惧和创伤的研究时，我参观了东海岸的一个创伤成瘾中心。

The guy who runs it will be a guest on this podcast in the future, an amazingly talented trauma and addiction therapist by the name of Ryan Suave.

该播客的运营者将来将成为该播客的嘉宾，他是一位才华横溢的创伤和成瘾治疗师，名叫 Ryan Suave。

And there it was that I learned about yoga nidra, non-sleep deep rest.

在那里我学到了瑜伽休息术，即非睡眠深度休息。

And here's why.

原因如下。

They were taking heroin addicts, gambling addicts, sex addicts, alcoholics, people with what they call behavioral process addictions and substance abuse addictions.

他们带走了海洛因成瘾者、赌博成瘾者、性成瘾者、酗酒者，以及所谓的行为过程成瘾和药物滥用成瘾的人。

And every morning after they woke up, the first thing that they would do was one hour of non-sleep deep rest, placing people into this liminal state.

而每天早上醒来后，他们做的第一件事就是一个小时的非睡眠深度休息，让人进入这种阈限状态。

And I asked why, and Ryan said, this is especially important to do with addicts when they arrive in inpatient recovery in the first week, and even more so in the first three days, because typically, they are badly sleep-deprived.

我问为什么，瑞安说，这对于成瘾者在第一周到达住院康复中心时尤其重要，在前三天更是如此，因为通常情况下，他们严重缺乏睡眠。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And in addition to that, many of them are just not good at getting and staying asleep at night without the use of pharmacology-

除此之外，他们中的许多人在不使用药物的情况下，晚上就无法入睡和保持睡眠——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

or in some cases, their behavioral addictions, depending on what it was.

或者在某些情况下，他们的行为成瘾，这取决于它是什么。

And so it was a kind of a self-directed relaxation training of sorts first thing in the morning that in addition perhaps could compensate partially for some of the sleep deprivation that they no doubt were experiencing when they arrived.

因此，这是一种早上第一件事就是自我导向的放松训练，此外也许可以部分补偿他们到达时无疑正在经历的一些睡眠不足。

It's also a novel environment, and-

这也是一个新奇的环境，而且——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

sleeping in novel environments can be challenging.

在陌生的环境中睡觉可能会很有挑战性。

So there is, as far as I know, no randomized control trials of this practice yet.

据我所知，目前还没有针对这种做法的随机对照试验。

But there are a good number of clinics and treatment centers that are now employing non-sleep deep rest, AKA yoga nidra, for 30 minutes to an hour first thing upon waking as one of the core components of treatment for helping people get and stay sober.

但现在有很多诊所和治疗中心采用非睡眠深度休息（又称瑜伽休息法），即醒来后第一时间进行 30 分钟到一个小时，作为帮助人们获得并保持清醒的治疗的核心组成部分之一。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

I think it's absolutely fascinating because that morning time period as well can be for those who are struggling with sleep, especially difficult.

我认为这绝对令人着迷，因为对于那些睡眠困难的人来说，早上的时间也可能是特别困难的。

And you and I have spoken on this podcast series about sort of awakening at night or later in the morning when you really want to be asleep, and it's just a struggle to get back.

你和我在这个播客系列中谈到过，当你真的想睡觉时，在晚上或早上晚些时候醒来，但很难醒来。

And as you noted there, he was saying they often come in underslept, and my suspicion is that they're probably getting sleep at the front end, in part because they're heavily medicated, but self-medicating in terms of helping their sleep.

正如你在那里指出的，他说他们经常睡眠不足，我怀疑他们可能会提前入睡，部分原因是他们接受了大量药物治疗，但在帮助睡眠方面进行了自我治疗。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

But then, of course, because they are asleep, they can't continue to medicate.

但当然，因为他们睡着了，所以他们不能继续服药。

So which part of sleep is fragile?

那么睡眠的哪一部分是脆弱的呢？

It's those morning hours, and therefore, if you have something that is a compensatory tool, that is not going to be the trigger of saying, "Just get back into bed, get under those sheets, and sleep." Sleep doesn't work like that.

现在是早上的时间，因此，如果你有某种补偿工具，它就不会成为你说“只要回到床上，钻到床单下睡觉就可以了”的触发因素。睡眠不是这样的。

Sleep is not something that we do.

睡眠不是我们做的事情。

Sleep is something that arrives to us, with us, and if it's not, you can't force it.

睡眠是我们自然而然的事情，如果没有，你就无法强迫它。

And it's a little bit like someone's name, in fact, quite the opposite, that the harder you try to remember, the further you push sleep away, and when you stop, it all of a sudden comes back.

这有点像某人的名字，事实上，恰恰相反，你越努力记住，你就越远离睡眠，当你停下来时，它会突然回来。

But I love this idea of inserting something like that as a compensatory tool, and that's why I think you and I have discussed openly here, in fact, on this series, at some point, we're going to collaborate, and we're going to look to see exactly what is happening electrically at high-fidelity mapping Inside of the brain when we are going through these liminal states, and what is the benefit of that?

但我喜欢插入类似的东西作为补偿工具的想法，这就是为什么我认为你和我在这里公开讨论，事实上，在这个系列中，在某个时候，我们将进行合作，我们将看看当我们经历这些阈值状态时，在大脑内部的高保真映射中究竟发生了什么，以及这样做的好处是什么？

Is it a very similar benefit for sleep?

这对睡眠有非常相似的好处吗？

And it's fascinating because it's possible that what we find at the level of the brain is that it's not sleep-like, it's something else-like.

这很有趣，因为我们在大脑层面发现的可能不是睡眠，而是其他类似的东西。

Maybe it's just a liminal state-like.

也许这只是一种阈限状态。

And what's also interesting is that it provides seemingly many of the benefits of sleep, but it's not sleep.

同样有趣的是，它看似提供了睡眠的许多好处，但它不是睡眠。

In other words, you can arrive at the same destination of mental and physical health through two different routes, one thing called sleep, one thing called these liminal states.

换句话说，你可以通过两种不同的途径到达精神和身体健康的同一个目的地，一种称为睡眠，一种称为阈值状态。

Or they both operate on the same highway in terms of mechanistic transaction benefits.

或者就机械交易利益而言，它们都在同一条高速公路上运营。

So much that we need.

我们需要的就这么多。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Well, I-

嗯，我——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

We could stay here all night and all day.

我们可以在这里待一整夜或一整天。

Hopefully not all night.

希望不是整个晚上。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, we will absolutely do those studies and, because I think that people are in desperate need of zero-cost tools to try and access the replenishment and recovery that comes from sleep.

好吧，我们绝对会做这些研究，因为我认为人们迫切需要零成本的工具来尝试从睡眠中获得补充和恢复。

And when sleep is available to us, when we can access it, that's going to be the best option, there's no question.

当我们能够获得睡眠时，当我们能够获得睡眠时，这将是最好的选择，毫无疑问。

But then some of these tools, in theory and in practice, provide a portal to get better at sleeping as well.

但其中一些工具在理论上和实践上也提供了改善睡眠的门户。

So that's a-

所以这是一个-

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah, I was going to say, one of the other things I'd be fascinated for us to do is not just look at that model of what happens in the morning, but can we use that for people who have the opposite insomnia problem, which is that I can't fall asleep.

是的，我想说，我感兴趣的另一件事是我们要做的不仅仅是看看早上发生的事情的模型，而且我们可以将它用于那些有相反失眠问题的人，那就是我无法入睡。

And we spoke about this in a previous episode, of tools and techniques and methods to help you fall asleep.

我们在上一集中谈到了帮助您入睡的工具、技术和方法。

Could this be one of them, where you just start to help move yourself into this liminal state?

这可能是其中之一，你刚刚开始帮助自己进入这种阈限状态吗？

You take the stress off.

你可以减轻压力。

One of the things I hear so much at the center when people come in and they say, "I've just, I always struggle to sleep." And you go into depth and it's because their mind starts to Rolodex through that anxiety of what I need to do and what I should do.

当人们走进中心时，我经常听到这样的话：“我只是，我总是难以入睡。”当你深入了解时，这是因为他们的思想开始通过我需要做什么和应该做什么的焦虑来记名片。

But also, then the later it gets and the absent their sleep becomes, the more stressed they get, not just about the next day, the more stressed that they get about this thing called not being able to fall asleep.

而且，时间越晚，他们的睡眠变得越缺乏，他们的压力就越大，不仅仅是第二天，他们对“无法入睡”这件事的压力就越大。

And if there's something, a practice that you've taught someone that says, "That's okay.

如果有什么东西，你教给别人的一种做法，会说：“没关系。

I know this place and I know this situation, and there's a tool I have, and it's called this a liminal state." And if you were to train people on that method, is it a way that they finally can then cast themselves off and it's the bridge, not necessarily just between despair and hope, but the bridge between wakefulness and sleep.

我了解这个地方，我了解这种情况，而且我有一个工具，这就是所谓的阈限状态。”如果你要训练人们采用这种方法，这是一种他们最终可以摆脱自己的方式吗？它是一座桥梁，不一定只是绝望与希望之间的桥梁，而是清醒与睡眠之间的桥梁。

So put it at the back end, at the end of the day, rather than the front end.

所以把它放在后端，一天结束时，而不是前端。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

A lot for us to discover there and at risk of being hyperbolic, what would be more useful than a zero-cost, non-pharmacologic tool for people to get the rest and restoration they need, and to get better at getting the ultimate form of restoration, which is sleep.

我们有很多发现，尽管存在夸张的风险，但对于人们获得所需的休息和恢复，以及更好地获得最终形式的恢复（即睡眠）来说，还有什么比零成本、非药物工具更有用的呢？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah, and I love the paradox of it, that non-sleep deep rest allows you to go into sleep deep rest.

是的，我喜欢它的悖论，非睡眠深度休息可以让你进入睡眠深度休息。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

It is, after all, a transition or liminal state.

毕竟，这是一种过渡或阈限状态。

Maybe this will become the stage before stage one of sleep.

也许这将成为睡眠第一阶段之前的阶段。

Who knows?

谁知道？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Who knows?

谁知道？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Redefine our staging criteria.

重新定义我们的分期标准。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's right.

没错。

Okay, so speaking of challenges sleeping because of one's concern, AKA anxiety about the importance of sleep, what about the relationship between sleep and anxiety?

好吧，说到因为一个人的担忧而对睡眠造成的挑战，也就是对睡眠重要性的焦虑，那么睡眠和焦虑之间的关系又如何呢？

Meaning-

意思是——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

many people in the world experience low-level anxiety or have a low threshold to what could be a full-blown anxiety or panic attack, but more often than not is this feeling of being tired and wired or having a quick pre-pulse startle, as we call it in our business-

世界上许多人都经历过低水平的焦虑，或者对全面焦虑或惊恐发作的阈值较低，但这种感觉通常是疲倦和紧张的感觉，或者是快速的脉冲前惊吓，正如我们在业务中所说的那样——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

a nerd speak for kind of a reactive to input anxiety.

书呆子指的是对输入焦虑的反应。

And I don't think there's any clean definition between anxiety, stress, and PTSD.

我认为焦虑、压力和创伤后应激障碍之间没有任何明确的定义。

These run along a continuum, and they braid together.

它们沿着一个连续体延伸，并且编织在一起。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Right.

对。

PTSD is an anxiety disorder.

PTSD 是一种焦虑症。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

It's one of many.

这是众多之一。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

These things braid together in a way that it would be a waste of our time to try and disentangle those.

这些东西以某种方式交织在一起，如果我们试图将它们解开，那就是浪费时间。

But many people have anxiety that is anywhere from minor to debilitating, but that is separate from PTSD, although people with PTSD can have anxiety.

但许多人的焦虑程度从轻微到使人衰弱不等，但这与创伤后应激障碍是分开的，尽管患有创伤后应激障碍的人也可能有焦虑。

So what do we know about the relationship between sleep and anxiety?

那么我们对睡眠和焦虑之间的关系了解多少呢？

And perhaps we could frame this in the context of the QQRT.

也许我们可以在 QQRT 的背景下构建这个框架。

I'll just toss out a question that perhaps highlights what I mean.

我只是抛出一个问题，也许可以突出我的意思。

Is it possible that somebody's getting eight hours of sleep a night, which for them meets their quantity requirement, and the quality is relatively high, but it's not as high as it could be because the regularity and timing of their sleep isn't great.

有没有可能有人每晚睡八个小时，对于他来说，满足了他的数量要求，而且质量也比较高，但是却没有那么高，因为他的睡眠规律性和时间性都不太好。

Is that person going to be more prone to anxiety than somebody who's really matched to their chronotype and is still getting enough sleep?

这个人是否会比那些真正符合自己的生物钟类型且睡眠充足的人更容易焦虑？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

No one's done the head-to-head comparison where you kind of do the, how am I going to do it, the Coke, Pepsi, Dr. Pepper, Sprite, QQRT-

没有人做过头对头的比较，你可以做，我该怎么做，可口可乐，百事可乐，胡椒博士，雪碧，QQRT-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Uh-huh

嗯嗯

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

...

challenge between all of those.

所有这些之间的挑战。

What we do know is that if you look at each one independently, QQRT, quantity, quality, regularity, timing, if any one of those is off, it's very difficult not to see a coexisting anxiety disorder or increase in anxiety or a mood disorder.

我们所知道的是，如果你独立地观察每一项，QQRT、数量、质量、规律性、时间安排，如果其中任何一项出现问题，就很难不看到共存的焦虑症或焦虑或情绪障碍的增加。

And I think, to me, anxiety is part of that class, of a broader class that I would call mood disorders.

我认为，对我来说，焦虑是这个类别的一部分，属于一个更广泛的类别，我称之为情绪障碍。

It's relevant that we make that distinction, at least in my eyes, and I know some people may disagree, because mood and anxiety are different than emotions, and many of us clump them together.

我们做出这种区分是相关的，至少在我看来，而且我知道有些人可能不同意，因为情绪和焦虑与情绪不同，我们中的许多人将它们混为一谈。

The way I think about the difference is the following Time scale.

我思考差异的方式是以下时间尺度。

Emotions are short, punctate events that usually last anywhere from seconds to many minutes.

情绪是短暂的、有斑点的事件，通常持续几秒到几分钟。

Mood states, however, like anxiety or depression, those operate on a slightly different time scale, from minutes to hours, to months, to years.

然而，情绪状态，如焦虑或抑郁，其运作的时间尺度略有不同，从几分钟到几小时，到几个月，到几年。

And so it's very unlikely that we can experience an emotional reaction that from a chronometry point of view, lasts for two years.

因此，从计时学的角度来看，我们不太可能经历持续两年的情绪反应。

But you can certainly see someone who has a mood state abnormality of depression that lasts for several years, or who has been chronically anxious for several years.

但你肯定会看到有人患有持续数年的抑郁情绪状态异常，或者多年来一直处于长期焦虑状态。

And I'll come back to why I think that distinction is relevant for a second.

我会回过头来谈谈为什么我认为这种区别是相关的。

To your point, though, about the relationship with sleep, here again, it's a very strong bidirectional relationship.

不过，就你的观点而言，关于与睡眠的关系，这又是一种非常强烈的双向关系。

And I would say that probably in the last eight or nine years, we've been doing a considerable amount of work in sleep and anxiety rather than just sleep and basic emotional reactivity.

我想说，可能在过去的八、九年里，我们在睡眠和焦虑方面做了相当多的工作，而不仅仅是睡眠和基本的情绪反应。

What we found is it's very strongly bidirectional, that if you have anxiety, it's very difficult to sleep.

我们发现它是非常强烈的双向性，如果你有焦虑，就很难入睡。

And if you are having difficulty sleeping, it's very likely that you will increase your anxiety.

如果你睡眠困难，很可能会增加你的焦虑。

But before we really unpacked that, we started with a very basic study similar to those we've described.

但在我们真正解开这个谜团之前，我们首先进行了一项与我们所描述的类似的非常基础的研究。

We took a group of people, and we were very careful to make sure that they had completely normative levels of anxiety.

我们带了一群人，我们非常小心地确保他们的焦虑水平完全正常。

They showed no signs of an anxiety-related disorder.

他们没有表现出与焦虑相关的疾病的迹象。

And by the way, anxiety disorders are, it seems, one of, if not the most common of all psychiatric conditions, just to put it in context for people listening.

顺便说一句，焦虑症似乎是所有精神疾病中最常见的一种（即使不是最常见的），只是为了让人们听一下它的背景。

And these individuals, no signs of anxiety disorders whatsoever.

这些人没有任何焦虑症的迹象。

They were normative.

它们是规范的。

And then we had them go through a full night of sleep, or we then sleep deprived them.

然后我们让他们睡一整晚，或者我们剥夺他们的睡眠。

And the next day, we were measuring their anxiety.

第二天，我们测量了他们的焦虑程度。

And in those people who were sleep deprived, we were actually measuring the level of anxiety every hour.

对于那些睡眠不足的人，我们实际上每小时测量一次焦虑程度。

So we could almost get this time-lapse photography of what happened to their anxiety state as it unfolded across the sleep deprivation period.

因此，我们几乎可以用延时摄影来拍摄他们在睡眠不足期间的焦虑状态。

It wasn't a linear response, that the more and more hours that you were awake beyond 16, the more exponential that rise in anxiety became.

这并不是一个线性反应，16 点以后你醒着的时间越长，焦虑感就会呈指数级增长。

So it wasn't simply a linear dose response curve.

所以这不仅仅是一条线性剂量反应曲线。

It was exponential, meaning that there was this hockey shape swing up.

它是指数级的，这意味着曲棍球形状呈上升趋势。

And in fact, by the next morning, compared to when you'd had a full night of sleep, those individuals were so anxious that almost 50% of the participants in that group who had no signs of anxiety before had a level of anxiety that was so strong that they would reach the diagnostic threshold for having an anxiety disorder.

事实上，到了第二天早上，与你睡了一整夜的时候相比，这些人变得非常焦虑，以至于该组中几乎 50% 之前没有焦虑迹象的参与者的焦虑程度非常严重，以至于他们达到了患有焦虑症的诊断阈值。

And that was simply by way of the absence of sleep.

这仅仅是因为缺乏睡眠。

But again, that brought me back to this notion of this is a good experimental tool for us scientists to understand what is the benefit of sleep when it's present and the absence of sleep when it's not, by taking sleep completely out of the equation by way of total deprivation.

但这又让我回到了这个概念，这是一个很好的实验工具，可以让我们科学家了解睡眠存在时的好处和睡眠不存在时的好处，通过完全剥夺睡眠的方式将睡眠完全排除在外。

But of course, that's not real life.

但当然，这不是现实生活。

So we did a slightly different study.

所以我们做了一个稍微不同的研究。

Here, what we did was we tracked individuals essentially in the wild, as it were, just going about their daily lives, and we had different sleep tracking monitoring equipment on them.

在这里，我们所做的是基本上在野外追踪个体，可以说，只是追踪他们的日常生活，并且我们在他们身上配备了不同的睡眠追踪监测设备。

So we were tracking their sleep from one night to the next, to the next, to the next, and from one day to the next, to the next.

所以我们从一个晚上到下一个晚上、到下一个晚上、到下一个晚上、从一天到下一天、到下一天跟踪他们的睡眠。

We were tracking their level of anxiety.

我们正在追踪他们的焦虑程度。

And what we found here was that even small perturbations in their sleep from one night to the next, to the next accurately predicted their increase or decrease in their anxiety from one day to the next, to the next.

我们在这里发现，即使是从一个晚上到下一个晚上的睡眠中的微小扰动，也能准确地预测他们从这一天到下一天的焦虑程度的增加或减少。

What was the critical ingredient here?

这里的关键因素是什么？

Well, in the first experiment, I'd essentially manipulated both quantity and quality, the two QQs of the QQRT.

嗯，在第一个实验中，我基本上操纵了数量和质量，即 QQRT 的两个 QQ。

I'd removed the quantity of sleep, and also they had no quality of sleep.

我去掉了睡眠量，但他们的睡眠质量也没有了。

Why?

为什么？

Because they had no quantity of sleep.

因为他们没有充足的睡眠。

But when we looked at that day to day to day, night to night to night study, it wasn't quantity that was the best predictor.

但当我们日复一日、夜复一夜地研究时，我们发现数量并不是最好的预测因素。

It wasn't shortening of quantity that determined next-day increases in anxiety.

决定第二天焦虑增加的并不是数量的减少。

It was quality.

这是质量。

The worse the quality was night to night to night, the worse their anxiety became.

夜复一夜的质量越差，他们的焦虑就越严重。

So that started to lead us to think a lot more about what is it regarding the quality of sleep that seemed to offer when it was present, what I would describe as an anxiolytic benefit.

因此，这开始让我们更多地思考睡眠质量在存在时似乎能提供什么，我将其描述为抗焦虑益处。

In other words, it's lessening anxiety.

换句话说，它可以减轻焦虑。

A lack of sleep is an anxiogenic.

睡眠不足会导致焦虑。

It's going to produce anxiety.

它会产生焦虑。

What in sleep is anxiolytic?

睡眠中什么具有抗焦虑作用？

We started off with a hypothesis that was profoundly incorrect.

我们一开始的假设是完全错误的。

We thought, well, for emotions, which are these short bursts of affective state, it was REM sleep that seemed to be the principal ingredient.

我们认为，对于情绪来说，即情感状态的短暂爆发，快速眼动睡眠似乎是主要成分。

Well, wouldn't that be the case for mood states?

嗯，情绪状态不也是这样吗？

Well, here with anxiety, it wasn't.

好吧，带着焦虑，事实并非如此。

It was deep non-REM sleep, and we couldn't get away from it.

这是深度非快速眼动睡眠，我们无法摆脱它。

And so what we found was that when we looked at the sleep in the laboratory and asked what was predictive from the night before.

所以我们发现，当我们在实验室观察睡眠并询问前一天晚上的预测结果时。

So you measure your anxiety the night before, and then we measure it the next morning, and basically, we calculate a change score.

因此，您在前一天晚上测量您的焦虑程度，然后我们在第二天早上进行测量，基本上，我们计算出变化分数。

Has your anxiety the next morning increased, stayed the same, or decreased?

第二天早上您的焦虑感是增加、保持不变还是减少？

And then we correlate that with the different stages.

然后我们将其与不同阶段联系起来。

And what we found was that the electrical quality of your deep non-REM sleep was very much predictive Of your dissipation of anxiety overnight.

我们发现，深度非快速眼动睡眠的电质量很大程度上可以预测您夜间焦虑的消散。

And this helped me realize, gosh, it's much more complex.

这让我意识到，天哪，事情要复杂得多。

These are beautiful surprises you get from research when you have this hypothesis and you look at, you see REM sleep, no signal of predictive relationship with anxiety.

当你有了这个假设，你会看到快速眼动睡眠，没有与焦虑相关的预测信号，这些都是你从研究中得到的美丽惊喜。

And I say, of course, because I'm idiotic, rerun the analysis.

我说，当然，因为我很白痴，请重新运行分析。

Just go back to raw data and the REM sleep signal was so strong.

只要回到原始数据，快速眼动睡眠信号就非常强。

Rerun the analysis and you get exactly the same result.

重新运行分析，您会得到完全相同的结果。

It's deep non-REM sleep.

这是深度非快速眼动睡眠。

Great.

伟大的。

Okay.

好的。

Then what is that deep non-REM sleep doing to help dissipate the anxiety?

那么深度非快速眼动睡眠是如何帮助消除焦虑的呢？

But here again, was a commonality with emotion.

但这里又存在情感上的共性。

What we found is that the greater the amount of deep non-REM sleep, the greater the re-engagement of your frontal lobe was the next day, and that was predicting the dissipation of your anxiety the next morning.

我们发现，深度非快速眼动睡眠时间越长，第二天额叶的重新参与程度就越高，这预示着第二天早上你的焦虑会消散。

So we really started to understand this sort of critical bidirectional relationship, but it was a very complex one.

所以我们真正开始理解这种关键的双向关系，但它是一个非常复杂的关系。

That yes, anxiety can disrupt your sleep, and yes, a disrupted sleep can predict your next-day anxiety.

是的，焦虑会扰乱你的睡眠，是的，睡眠中断可以预测你第二天的焦虑。

But it wasn't the same stage of sleep that we thought before.

但这与我们之前想象的睡眠阶段不同。

It was the opposite.

事实恰恰相反。

It was deep non-REM sleep.

这是深度非快速眼动睡眠。

What we've come to realize is that deep non-REM sleep, in part, seems to be almost shifting you from that sympathetic state over to the parasympathetic state.

我们逐渐意识到，深度非快速眼动睡眠在某种程度上似乎几乎将你从交感神经状态转变为副交感神经状态。

It seems to engage that nice rest and digest.

它似乎有助于很好的休息和消化。

It seems to reduce your heart rate.

它似乎会降低你的心率。

It seems to drop levels of cortisol.

它似乎会降低皮质醇的水平。

And we think that perhaps is a resetting brain-body, literally an embodied mechanism by way of deep non-REM sleep helping you just relieve that anxiety pressure.

我们认为这可能是一种脑体重置，实际上是一种通过深度非快速眼动睡眠帮助您缓解焦虑压力的具体机制。

So it does come back to your question, which is, yes, quantity if I manipulate it, quality if I manipulate it, regularity or timing, manipulate any one of those, I can change your anxiety.

所以这确实回到了你的问题，那就是，是的，如果我操纵它的数量，如果我操纵它的质量，规律性或时间安排，操纵其中任何一个，我就可以改变你的焦虑。

But the story coming through here, if anything, was that it wasn't quantity, it was quality.

但这里所传达的故事，如果有的话，那就是，重要的不是数量，而是质量。

I told you that from one night to the next, to the next, the quality of your sleep that we were measuring was predictive of your anxiety.

我告诉过你，从一个晚上到下一个晚上，再到下一个晚上，我们测量的你的睡眠质量可以预测你的焦虑程度。

And then when we bring you into the laboratory and we look at the electrical activity of your brain, I also mentioned in that episode, on the first episode, another way we measure quality is not just subjectively what's going on or objectively what is the efficiency of your sleep.

然后，当我们带您进入实验室并观察您大脑的电活动时，我在那一集中也提到了，在第一集中，我们衡量质量的另一种方式不仅仅是主观上发生了什么或客观上您的睡眠效率如何。

Is it filled with lots of awakenings, which was the measure that we used in the day-to-day study and night-to-night study.

是不是充满了很多的觉醒，这是我们日复一日学习、夜夜学习所用的衡量标准。

But we looked at the electrical quality of your sleep.

但我们研究了您睡眠的电质量。

Once again, it was quality that was predicting it.

再一次，是质量决定了这一点。

It's something about getting good, continuous sleep that is replete with this deep non-REM electrical brain activity that provides an anxiolytic benefit to your brain the next day.

这是为了获得良好、持续的睡眠，这种睡眠充满了这种深层的非快速眼动脑电活动，可以在第二天为您的大脑提供抗焦虑益处。

And I think it's strategic because so many of us deal with anxiety, and some of us would prefer not to necessarily be on medication or even look to that.

我认为这是战略性的，因为我们很多人都在应对焦虑，而我们中的一些人宁愿不一定要接受药物治疗，甚至不希望这样做。

Well, here again, as a strategic tool, think about your sleep.

好吧，作为一个战略工具，再次考虑一下你的睡眠。

It really does seem to be a buffer for anxiety.

它似乎确实可以缓解焦虑。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Along those lines, maybe you can just recap a few of the things covered in previous episodes that are known to improve the quality and quantity of deep non-REM sleep.

沿着这些思路，也许您可以回顾一下前几集中介绍的一些已知可以提高深度非快速眼动睡眠质量和数量的内容。

I can think of a couple, but you're the expert here.

我能想到几个，但你是这方面的专家。

So if you-

所以如果你-

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Let's not rush to judgment on that one

我们先不要急于做出判断

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, no, I think it's an established fact, which is why you're here.

嗯，不，我认为这是既定的事实，这就是你来这里的原因。

So let's perhaps list a few of those off in the domains of exercise, temperature, et cetera.

因此，也许让我们列出一些运动、温度等领域的问题。

What would you place in the-- Is there a top three, like three greatest hits for- ...

你会把什么放在——有没有前三名，比如三首最热门的歌曲——……

improving deep non-REM sleep because of its important relationship to anxiety management or reducing anxiety?

改善深度非快速眼动睡眠是因为它与焦虑管理或减少焦虑有重要关系？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

I think there are.

我认为有。

The first thing I would tell you is that regularity is going to be key here.

我要告诉你的第一件事是，规律性将是这里的关键。

When you are giving your brain the signals of regularity, it understands exactly how to instigate that deep sleep.

当你向大脑发出规律性信号时，它就会准确地理解如何引发深度睡眠。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And that's one of the two qualitative measures of sleep that I spoke about.

这是我谈到的两种睡眠质量衡量标准之一。

So QQ, the quality, the second Q I spoke about, it's regarding the continuity of your sleep and the electrical quality of your sleep.

所以QQ，质量，我谈到的第二个问题，它是关于你的睡眠的连续性和睡眠的电质量。

Regularity is probably best for the continuity of your sleep.

有规律可能最有利于睡眠的连续性。

If you're very irregular with the timing of your sleep, your brain almost doesn't know, are we on, are we off?

如果你的睡眠时间非常不规律，你的大脑几乎不知道我们是在睡觉还是在睡觉？

Are we on, are we off?

我们是开还是关？

And your sleep can become quite fragmented because it's confused based on regularity.

而且你的睡眠可能会变得非常碎片化，因为它的规律性很混乱。

When you give it regularity, sleep starts to become more stable.

当你有规律地睡眠时，睡眠就会开始变得更加稳定。

More stable means that it's less likely to be littered with awakenings, meaning that it's better quality of sleep.

更稳定意味着它不太可能被唤醒，这意味着它的睡眠质量更好。

In terms of electrical quality of sleep, we did mention this in a prior episode when we spoke about sort of food and exercise.

就睡眠的电质量而言，我们在前一集中谈到食物和运动时确实提到过这一点。

Exercise seems to be one of those things that's very good at improving the quality of your deep sleep.

锻炼似乎是非常有助于改善深度睡眠质量的方法之一。

And here I'm talking about the electrical quality of your deep sleep.

我在这里谈论的是深度睡眠的电质量。

Try to make sure that you're physically active to a degree, and I think this is a protocol, and I think it's a meaningful protocol, but to go so to the extreme where I were to say, "You need to do at least 32 and a half minutes on a spin bike at this wattage," or we can't prescribe quite at that point, scientific prescription, not medical.

尽量确保你的身体活动达到一定程度，我认为这是一个协议，我认为这是一个有意义的协议，但要走向极端，我要说的是，“你需要在这个瓦数下骑动感单车至少 32 分钟半”，否则我们不能在这一点上开出处方，科学处方，而不是医学处方。

And so I would say exercise is one.

所以我想说运动就是其中之一。

Then we spoke about another, which was temperature.

然后我们谈到了另一个，那就是温度。

And we said that getting your bedroom cool seems to be a way to promote the increase in deep sleep.

我们说过，让卧室凉爽似乎是促进深度睡眠增加的一种方法。

So these are two dos, which is get regular Get cool.

所以这是两个要做的事情，那就是定期变得冷静。

The don'ts we've already spoken a little bit about, too.

我们也已经讨论过一些不该做的事情。

One of the things that I probably didn't mention enough with alcohol, not only does it seem to compromise your rapid eye movement sleep, but it will fragment your sleep.

关于酒精，我可能没有提到足够多的一件事，它不仅似乎会损害您的快速眼动睡眠，而且还会破坏您的睡眠。

It will make your sleep more unstable.

它会让你的睡眠更加不稳定。

And an indirect consequence of that is alcohol is going to be in highest concentrations in your system after drinking in the evening with sleep in the first four to five hours.

其间接后果是，在晚上饮酒并在头四到五个小时内睡觉后，酒精在您的系统中的浓度将达到最高。

Now, that depends on how quickly you metabolize it and how much you've had, but let's assume some degree of standardization.

现在，这取决于你代谢它的速度和你摄入的量，但让我们假设一定程度的标准化。

In other words, I said that alcohol will not just block your REM sleep, it will fragment your sleep.

换句话说，我说酒精不仅会阻碍你的快速眼动睡眠，还会破坏你的睡眠。

It makes your sleep more vulnerable to you waking up.

它使您的睡眠更容易醒来。

Well, you're especially vulnerable in the first four or so hours because that's when alcohol concentration is highest in your system, and therefore the first four hours can also fall prey to the greatest culling of your sleep quality.

嗯，你在前四个小时左右特别容易受到伤害，因为此时你体内的酒精浓度最高，因此前四个小时也可能成为你睡眠质量最大的牺牲品。

And if you're removing or restricting some of that quality in the first four hours, what type of sleep are you principally restricting?

如果您在前四个小时内消除或限制某些睡眠质量，那么您主要限制哪种类型的睡眠？

You're restricting deep sleep because we've said deep sleep comes in the first half, dream sleep, REM sleep in the second half.

你限制深度睡眠是因为我们说过深度睡眠发生在前半部分，做梦睡眠、快速眼动睡眠发生在后半部分。

So don'ts would be try to stay away from excessive alcohol in the evening.

因此，晚上尽量避免过量饮酒。

We also know that alcohol is associated with longer-term chronic anxiety, and the tragedy is that it's often used as a way to blunt the anxiety because alcohol is a sedative, and it can help just alleviate, take the edge off.

我们还知道，酒精与长期的慢性焦虑有关，可悲的是，它经常被用作减轻焦虑的一种方法，因为酒精是一种镇静剂，它只能帮助缓解、消除焦虑。

But it's a short-term, quote-unquote, win for a long-term loss because overall it will increase anxiety levels.

但这是短期的、不言而喻的胜利，却是长期的损失，因为总体而言，这会增加焦虑程度。

So I would say those are some do's and perhaps a don't if you want to try to optimize your sleep quality, including the integrity of your sleep and also the electrical quality of your sleep.

因此，如果您想尝试优化睡眠质量，包括睡眠的完整性和睡眠的电质量，我想说，这些是一些应该做的事情，也许是一些不应该做的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Terrific.

太棒了。

I think because so many people struggle with anxiety ranging from mild to severe anxiety, the tips you just provided are going to be immensely beneficial.

我认为，因为很多人都在与从轻度到重度焦虑不同的焦虑作斗争，所以你刚才提供的建议将会非常有益。

And in addition to that, the previous four episodes that we've recorded for this series, each and all include tools, that is protocols, for improving the QQRT aspects of sleep.

除此之外，我们为本系列录制的前四集，每一集都包含用于改善睡眠的 QQRT 方面的工具，即协议。

So all the more reason for people to- ...

因此，人们更有理由——

dig into those and to glean the gems that you've laid out for people because they really are very actionable.

深入研究这些内容并收集您为人们展示的宝石，因为它们确实非常可行。

And most all, perhaps even all of the tools that we've discussed in those episodes are zero cost.

最重要的是，甚至我们在这些剧集中讨论的所有工具都是零成本的。

They require a little bit of time investment, some thought and consideration, but they're not really that difficult to implement.

它们需要一点时间投入、一些思考和考虑，但实施起来并不是那么困难。

They just require a little bit of being one's own scientist of self.

他们只需要一点点成为自己的科学家。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And be in your own corner when it comes to sleep.

睡觉时要在自己的角落里。

And another low-cost method that we mentioned was not just temperature in terms of keeping your room cool, but warm bath or shower before bed I mentioned improves sleep.

我们提到的另一种低成本方法不仅仅是保持房间凉爽的温度，而是我提到的睡前洗热水澡或淋浴可以改善睡眠。

One of the things it improves most is deep non-REM sleep.

它改善最多的事情之一是深度非快速眼动睡眠。

So there's another technique.

所以还有另一种技术。

Get your room cool to go into, but warm up to cool down to fall asleep, which then keeps you cool so that you stay asleep, and you'll get more deep sleep.

让你的房间在进入时保持凉爽，但在入睡时先热身，然后降温，这样你就可以保持凉爽，这样你就能保持睡眠状态，并且你会获得更深度的睡眠。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Fantastic.

太棒了。

Although it's a terribly unhappy topic, suicide is an important topic for us to cover here.

尽管这是一个非常令人不快的话题，但自杀是我们在这里讨论的一个重要话题。

I can think of few things more tragic than suicide, and yet sadly, it accompanies certain psychiatric conditions.

我能想到没有什么比自杀更悲惨的事情了，但可悲的是，它伴随着某些精神疾病。

I think people with manic bipolar have a 20 to 30 times greater probability of suicide than others.

我认为患有躁郁症的人自杀的可能性是其他人的 20 到 30 倍。

But suicide accompanies major depression, anxiety, PTSD.

但自杀伴随着严重的抑郁、焦虑、创伤后应激障碍。

Again, it's a tough topic to get into, but an important one to get into.

再说一次，这是一个很难进入的话题，但却是一个很重要的话题。

What is the relationship between suicidality and sleep?

自杀和睡眠之间有什么关系？

And I suppose we could look at this from the perspective of to what degree does sleep deprivation correlate with suicide or attempted suicides, and what sort of inoculatory effects does sleep provide towards suicide?

我想我们可以从以下角度来看待这个问题：睡眠不足与自杀或自杀未遂之间的关联程度如何，以及睡眠对自杀有什么样的预防作用？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Unfortunately, we don't know much about the second part of the question, which is how can sleep be used as a risk mitigating tool when you know that there is the risk of suicide in place?

不幸的是，我们对问题的第二部分知之甚少，即当您知道存在自杀风险时，如何将睡眠用作降低风险的工具？

There's been a number of people who are doing this work, including my colleague Alison Harvey, again at the University of California, Berkeley, and Sheri Johnson, who's also there too.

有很多人正在从事这项工作，包括我在加州大学伯克利分校的同事艾莉森·哈维 (Alison Harvey) 和雪莉·约翰逊 (Sheri Johnson)，她也在那里。

I would say, though, that the first question is quite answerable, which is what do we know firstly about how a lack of sleep can impact suicide?

不过，我想说，第一个问题是可以回答的，即我们首先知道睡眠不足如何影响自杀？

Some of the earliest data that we found were associational relationships.

我们发现的一些最早的数据是关联关系。

What we found is that short sleep or poor quality of sleep predicted three things.

我们发现睡眠不足或睡眠质量差预示着三件事。

It predicted suicidal ideation, meaning that you had thoughts of suicide.

它预示着自杀意念，这意味着你有自杀的念头。

Bad sleep seemed to predict suicide attempts.

睡眠不好似乎预示着自杀企图。

And then tragically, more recent data, a lack of sleep predicts suicide completion.

可悲的是，最近的数据表明，睡眠不足预示着自杀的完成。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And what makes me think more causally about it, and we've been trying to get some grants, and we've failed to do so, so far to do more of this work because I'm just so compelled by it.

是什么让我更客观地思考这个问题，我们一直在试图获得一些资助，但我们未能做到这一点，到目前为止，我们还没有做更多的这项工作，因为我只是被它所吸引。

And you're right, it's one of the most tragic situations.

你是对的，这是最悲惨的情况之一。

Those sleep relationships aren't simply happening at the same moment in time.

这些睡眠关系并不是简单地同时发生的。

What I mean is that the sleep disturbance that we see precedes the onset of having suicidal thoughts, it precedes the onset of suicide attempt, and it precedes The suicide completion.

我的意思是，我们看到的睡眠障碍先于自杀念头的出现，先于自杀企图的出现，也先于自杀的完成。

So what this has been teaching me as I've been looking at the data, and we've looked at a little bit of our own data, sleep disruption when it comes to suicide is almost the canary in the coal mine.

因此，当我查看数据时，这告诉我，我们也查看了一些我们自己的数据，当涉及到自杀时，睡眠中断几乎是煤矿里的金丝雀。

It's almost like a tragic crystal ball that when you see that sleep starting to dismantle, it is a foreshadowing sign of a very dark series of events that will unfold.

这几乎就像一个悲剧性的水晶球，当你看到睡眠开始瓦解时，这是一系列非常黑暗的事件即将展开的预兆。

In other words, could we now start to think, and this is one of the things that we want to do, is sleep a biomarker?

换句话说，我们现在是否可以开始思考，这是我们想做的事情之一，睡眠是一种生物标志物吗？

Is sleep disruption, I should say, a biomarker for upcoming suicide risk before it begins?

我应该说，睡眠中断是否是即将到来的自杀风险发生之前的生物标志物？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The idea of finding a biomarker or collection of biomarkers for suicide, I think, is one of the more important missions of neuroscience, AI, and mental health generally.

我认为，寻找自杀的生物标志物或生物标志物集合的想法是神经科学、人工智能和心理健康领域更重要的使命之一。

There's a brilliant young researcher up at the University of Washington named Sam Goldin.

华盛顿大学有一位才华横溢的年轻研究员，名叫萨姆·戈尔丁。

He's spent a lot of his career studying animal models of aggression and rage.

他在职业生涯中花了很多时间研究攻击性和愤怒的动物模型。

And of course, some forms of suicide are thought to be forms of self-directed aggression and rage.

当然，某些形式的自杀被认为是自我攻击和愤怒的形式。

It makes sense.

这是有道理的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Some forms of suicide perhaps are different.

某些自杀形式或许有所不同。

I don't think we quite understand what suicide represents in the brain just yet, and I think having spoken to Paul Conti and others about suicide, it's clear that there are unfortunately many paths to suicide, and there isn't one brain state.

我认为我们还不太了解自杀在大脑中代表什么，而且我认为在与保罗·孔蒂和其他人谈论自杀之后，很明显，不幸的是，自杀有多种途径，并且不存在一种大脑状态。

Nonetheless, Sam's laboratory has been developing tools that help people with suicidal tendencies or people who have had suicidal ideation or plans in the past with these AI-based tools where it detects changes in their voice, in their sleep patterns, and in a few other metrics that I don't recall, that together become very good predictors of later suicidal ideation.

尽管如此，山姆的实验室一直在开发工具，帮助有自杀倾向的人或过去有过自杀意念或计划的人，使用这些基于人工智能的工具检测他们的声音、睡眠模式以及我不记得的其他一些指标的变化，这些变化共同成为后来自杀意念的非常好的预测指标。

So the idea here is that people who are prone to suicide often don't realize that they're drifting that way until it can sadly be too late.

因此，这里的想法是，那些有自杀倾向的人通常不会意识到他们正在朝着这种方向发展，直到遗憾的是为时已晚。

So the point here is, A, biomarkers are key, B, these biomarkers are being developed, C, AI is critical, but that according to Sam, changes in sleep patterns is absolutely central to these algorithms for allowing people to detect their own potential for suicide.

所以这里的要点是，A，生物标记物是关键，B，这些生物标记物正在开发中，C，人工智能至关重要，但根据 Sam 的说法，睡眠模式的变化绝对是这些算法的核心，可以让人们检测自己的自杀潜力。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

I think it's critical, and we thought about this when we started to see these sleep signals that were preemptive, that were almost precognitive in the sense of prediction, occurred to me that we're at the stage of technological evolution that if we get consent and many individuals who become suicidal, they are interested in some degree of support.

我认为这很关键，当我们开始看到这些先发制人的睡眠信号时，我们就想到了这一点，这些信号在预测的意义上几乎是预知的，我想到我们正处于技术进化的阶段，如果我们得到同意，许多有自杀倾向的人会对某种程度的支持感兴趣。

But of course, some people will just recoil and go into themselves, and that's when things can get very problematic as well.

但当然，有些人会退缩并陷入困境，这时事情也会变得非常有问题。

But it would require some degree of consenting that if you have a history of suicide ideation in the past, what if you were to be able to consent and say, "I would like to risk mitigate," and you have a wearable, like a watch, and that watch is connected to your phone, and there is a signal that can come from your watch that dials a series of phone numbers in order of preference.

但这需要一定程度的同意，如果你过去有自杀意念的历史，如果你能够同意并说：“我想减轻风险”，并且你有一个可穿戴设备，比如手表，并且该手表连接到你的手机，并且可以从你的手表发出信号，按偏好顺序拨打一系列电话号码，该怎么办？

And when your watch starts to detect that your sleep has this, and one of the things we really want to understand is what is the specific signature of sleep abnormalities?

当你的手表开始检测到你的睡眠有这种情况时，我们真正想了解的一件事是睡眠异常的具体特征是什么？

It's not just that your sleep gets short, but is it that your sleep gets long and then short, and then long and then short, but it constantly has poor quality of sleep, and the regularity is all over the place, but the chronotype timing is still in place.

不只是你的睡眠变短了，而是你的睡眠时长时短，时长时短，但睡眠质量一直很差，规律性到处都是，但睡眠时间型还是到位的。

What sort of specific pattern of those things is the hallmark that is most predictive of suicide?

这些事情的哪种具体模式是最能预测自杀的标志？

Let's say that I can come up with that algorithm finally, and then we can implement it into a watch or a tracking device of some sort.

假设我最终可以想出该算法，然后我们可以将其实现到手表或某种跟踪设备中。

And when it starts to see that pattern, it's constantly pattern matching, and it starts to see that across whatever number of days we say, if you see this across six nights or across 13 nights, this is serious.

当它开始看到这种模式时，它会不断地进行模式匹配，并且它开始看到，无论我们说多少天，如果你在 6 个晚上或 13 个晚上看到这种情况，那就很严重了。

It then triggers that phone to send a message to those individuals who are the designated support carers, and those people then reach out and start to say, "How are you doing?

然后它会触发电话向那些指定的支持护理人员发送消息，然后这些人伸出手来开始说：“你好吗？

Would you like to have a phone call?

您想打个电话吗？

Can I come over?

我可以过来吗？

Can I make you some food?

我可以给你做点吃的吗？

And I'd love to have a chat with you." Can you find a way to bootstrap a condition where you constantly then otherwise become asocial or antisocial and lose all support network?

我很想和你聊天。”你能找到一种方法来引导你不断变得不合群或反社会并失去所有支持网络的状况吗？

So that would be the sort of the grandiose idea.

所以这将是一个宏伟的想法。

The other thing that's very interesting is that we could measure their activity and their wakefulness at night.

另一件非常有趣的事情是我们可以测量他们的活动和夜间的清醒程度。

And the reason I bring this up is some great work by Michael Perlis and Michael Grandner, who've looked at suicide, both attempts and suicide completion across the 24-hour period.

我提出这个问题的原因是 Michael Perlis 和 Michael Grandner 的一些出色的工作，他们研究了 24 小时内的自杀、自杀企图和自杀完成情况。

It's not constant.

它不是恒定的。

It's not that you see suicide ideation and suicide attempts and completion in a distributed manner equally across the 24-hour period.

这并不是说您在 24 小时内以均匀分布的方式看到自杀意念、自杀企图和完成。

When do they principally occur?

它们主要发生在什么时候？

They occur in the late middle of the night, and there's this almost a four to five-hour period somewhere on average, and again it's just an average, somewhere between, let's say, 1:00 AM and 4:00 AM Which turns out to be right at the lowest dip of your circadian rhythm, and it could be circadian rhythm.

它们发生在深夜，平均大约有四到五个小时的时间段，而且这也只是平均时间，比如说，凌晨 1:00 到凌晨 4:00 之间的某个时间，事实证明，这正是您昼夜节律的最低谷，这可能是昼夜节律。

But I also think that there is something about, of course, the nighttime-ness when no one else is around and it is just you, bad point number one.

但我也认为，当然，当周围没有其他人、只有你的夜晚时，有一些东西，这是第一大坏点。

Second, as we've spoken about before on this episode, negative thoughts are 10 times worse in the darkness of night than they are in the light of day.

其次，正如我们之前在本集中谈到的，负面想法在黑暗中比在白天严重十倍。

And third, at that point, if you're awake, you're not asleep, and we know sleep is providing this ballast to your mental health.

第三，在这一点上，如果你醒着，你就没有睡着，我们知道睡眠为你的心理健康提供了稳定的保障。

So on all three of those counts, you see this very strong spike in suicide ideation, suicide attempt, and also suicide completion in this bewitching hour in the middle of the night.

因此，在所有这三个方面，你会看到在半夜这个令人着迷的时刻，自杀意念、自杀企图以及自杀完成率都出现了非常强烈的激增。

There is a final piece in this suicide story, though, that is only just emerging.

不过，这个自杀故事的最后一部分才刚刚浮现。

If you are not getting sufficient sleep, you are somewhere between two to three times more likely to go into that suicidal state, which is a very significant number.

如果你睡眠不足，你陷入自杀状态的可能性会增加两到三倍，这是一个非常重要的数字。

However, when people started to measure another factor of sleep, and particularly dream sleep, which was the dream content itself, it became even more predictive.

然而，当人们开始测量睡眠的另一个因素，特别是梦的睡眠，即梦的内容本身时，它变得更具预测性。

And we've not really seen this very much in psychiatric conditions.

我们在精神疾病方面还没有真正看到过这种情况。

But what they found was that instead of using your sleep disruption or your lack of sleep as a predictor of your suicide risk, we use nightmares as a predictor of your suicide risk.

但他们发现，我们不是使用睡眠中断或睡眠不足作为自杀风险的预测指标，而是使用噩梦作为自杀风险的预测指标。

That predictive value, that risk, went from about two to three times more likely to somewhere between five to eight times more likely.

这种预测价值，即风险，从可能性的两到三倍增加到五到八倍。

There is something special going on with bad dreams, and specifically nightmares, that is even more predictive than this physiological thing that we call sleep itself.

噩梦，特别是噩梦，会发生一些特殊的事情，它比我们称之为睡眠本身的生理现象更具预测性。

And we'll probably come on to maybe some of the reasons why dreaming, and particularly nightmares, in the next episode on dreaming, could explain exactly why that is.

在下一集关于做梦的内容中，我们可能会探讨做梦，尤其是噩梦的一些原因，可以准确地解释其原因。

But it's a new finding.

但这是一个新发现。

I don't think we can say much more about it now, but it is one of the most, I think, novel findings in this psychiatric sleep story that now dreams have come above and beyond simply sleep itself as a predictor of mental illness, and specifically a form that will take your life tragically very quickly.

我认为我们现在不能对此说太多，但我认为这是这个精神病学睡眠故事中最新颖的发现之一，现在梦已经超越了简单的睡眠本身作为精神疾病的预测因素，特别是一种很快就会夺走你悲惨生命的形式。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

When I think about depression, I immediately associate that with excessive amounts of sleep.

当我想到抑郁症时，我立即将其与睡眠过多联系起来。

After all, it's called depression.

毕竟，这就是所谓的抑郁症。

But what is the real link between major depression, which is the classical signs of malaise, one of the hallmark features also being a lack of optimism about the future and/or ability to sense into the future.

但重度抑郁症是不适的典型症状，其标志特征之一也是对未来缺乏乐观和/或感知未来的能力，两者之间的真正联系是什么。

It's not the only criteria.

这不是唯一的标准。

When Dr. Carl Dycerf, the great neuroscientist that he is, was on this podcast, and of course, he's also a practicing clinical psychiatrist, when we were talking about depression, he mentioned that another hallmark of major depression is people waking up at 2:00 or 3:00 a.m.

当 Carl Dycerf 博士（伟大的神经科学家）在这个播客中时，当然，他也是一名执业临床精神病学家，当我们谈论抑郁症时，他提到重度抑郁症的另一个标志是人们在凌晨 2:00 或 3:00 醒来。

and not being able to fall back asleep.

并且无法再入睡。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This just seems like a recipe for disaster all around, that the very condition that you're trying to perhaps ameliorate with additional sleep is preventing you from sleeping.

这似乎是一场灾难的根源，你试图通过额外的睡眠来改善的状况却让你无法入睡。

I can't imagine-

我无法想象-

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

It's very cruel, isn't it?

这非常残酷，不是吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

there's a whole lot of things more diabolical-

还有很多更邪恶的事情——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

in terms of the sleep science.

就睡眠科学而言。

So what's the relationship between sleep and depression, and how should one untangle that seemingly Gordian knot?

那么睡眠和抑郁之间有什么关系，人们应该如何解开这个看似棘手的结呢？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

It is, like the other conditions, bidirectional, that depression can disrupt sleep very much, and disrupted sleep can trigger depression.

与其他情况一样，抑郁症是双向的，它会极大地扰乱睡眠，而睡眠扰乱又会引发抑郁症。

Depression is interesting, by the way.

顺便说一句，抑郁症很有趣。

Some people have conceptualized it as being different to anxiety based, in some ways, on memory.

有些人将其概念化为在某种程度上与基于记忆的焦虑不同。

Which is that when you think about anxiety, people consider anxiety a disorder of the future, that you are constantly worried about what's coming up in the future.

也就是说，当你想到焦虑时，人们会认为焦虑是一种未来的疾病，你会不断担心未来会发生什么。

I didn't do this today, so I need to do that tomorrow, and then I've got that other thing next week.

我今天没有做这件事，所以我明天需要做那件事，然后下周我还有另一件事。

Or I'm fearful of going out to see them tomorrow.

或者我害怕明天出去见他们。

I'm fearful of taking that flight tomorrow.

我害怕明天乘坐那趟航班。

It seems to be so much about prospective future.

这似乎与未来的前景息息相关。

Whereas other people have suggested depression is the opposite.

而其他人则认为抑郁症恰恰相反。

It's about rumination of the past.

这是关于对过去的反思。

I went through this event.

我经历了这个事件。

I had this bereavement.

我有过这种丧亲之痛。

I had this painful divorce.

我经历了痛苦的离婚。

I just can't get over my past.

我就是无法忘记我的过去。

Now, I don't necessarily know if that's entirely true, but it is interesting in the sense that both of those abnormal prospection, worry of the future, and abnormal retrospection, sort of ruminating on the past, seem to disrupt sleep.

现在，我不一定知道这是否完全正确，但有趣的是，这些不正常的展望、对未来的担忧和不正常的回顾，有点对过去的反思，似乎都会扰乱睡眠。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Before you continue, I just wanted to drill into that idea just a little bit, because I think it's a really interesting one worth exploring.

在继续之前，我只是想稍微深入探讨一下这个想法，因为我认为这是一个非常有趣的值得探索的想法。

Again, I'm no psychiatrist, but I have heard and I've experienced, I've had a depression.

再说一遍，我不是精神科医生，但我听说过并且经历过，我患有抑郁症。

My understanding is it's normal for people to experience a major depressive episode at some point in their lives.

我的理解是，人们在生命中的某个时刻经历严重的抑郁发作是正常的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Could be situationally triggered or not.

可能会根据情况触发，也可能不会。

But that for others, unfortunately, they have repeating major depressive episodes.

但不幸的是，对于其他人来说，他们会反复出现重度抑郁症。

And hopefully, some people go through life never having had a depressive episode.

希望有些人一生中从未经历过抑郁症。

But as I recall, one of the more salient ...

但据我记得，其中一个更突出的......

thought patterns was that I used to have something that somehow was lost, and I couldn't quite figure out what it was.

我的思维模式是，我曾经有过一些不知何故丢失的东西，而且我不太清楚它是什么。

It was this recurring feeling of like things were on track and then they got off track, but not being able to tack the progression from on track to off track to one particular event.

这是一种反复出现的感觉，好像事情已经步入正轨，然后又偏离了轨道，但无法将从正轨到偏离正轨的进展跟踪到一个特定的事件。

It was this sort of sense that I had something that then was lost.

正是这种感觉，让我拥有了一些东西，然后又失去了。

Now fortunately for me, it eventually lifted, and it didn't get dangerously bad.

现在对我来说幸运的是，它最终解除了，并且没有变得危险的糟糕。

But I've had some close friends who've gone through individual or several major depressions, and I hear this.

但我有一些亲密的朋友经历过个人或几次严重的抑郁症，我听到了这一点。

This idea that they had it, or they think something was there that then they lost.

他们认为他们拥有它，或者他们认为那里有一些东西然后他们失去了。

So I think I agree with your assessment.

所以我想我同意你的评估。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

It fits very well if you think about the word that you just used.

如果你想想你刚才使用的这个词，它非常合适。

Had is about-

曾经是关于——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right

右

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

...

...

it's the past.

这是过去的事了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

It's past tense.

已经是过去式了

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

And then if we apply the criteria that is indeed part of the criteria for determining if somebody has major depression, which is a lack of optimistic outlook on the future, one can see how one could be very much stuck in the present and focused on the past and just stuck in that spin cycle.

然后，如果我们应用确实是确定某人是否患有重度抑郁症的标准的一部分（即对未来缺乏乐观前景）的标准，人们就会看到一个人如何会陷入当前并专注于过去，并陷入这种旋转循环。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Anyway, we're not here to decide what depression is or isn't in every case, but given that it's-

无论如何，我们并不是来决定每种情况下什么是抑郁症，什么不是抑郁症，但考虑到它是——

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah, I'm not a psychiatrist either, so please don't.

是的，我也不是精神科医生，所以请不要这样做。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

But I think this distinction between anxiety being about the future in a way that disrupts one's present and depression being about often the past in a way that disrupts one's sense of the present and the future makes a lot of sense.

但我认为，焦虑症是对未来的焦虑，会破坏一个人的现在，而抑郁症是对过去的事情，会破坏一个人对现在和未来的感觉，这两者之间的区别是很有意义的。

It's just a nice...

这只是一个美好的...

Not nice, it's unfortunate, but it's a-

不好，很不幸，但这是-

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

I think it can be a useful conceptualization

我认为这可能是一个有用的概念化

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

it's a useful contextualization, yeah.

这是一个有用的情境化，是的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Thank you.

谢谢你。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And to your question, though, about sleep, it's been a little bit interesting with depression.

不过，对于你关于睡眠的问题，抑郁症有点有趣。

Firstly, what we know is that depression will disrupt your sleep and make your sleep shorter, and it comes back to your comment from Carl Diceorf.

首先，我们知道抑郁症会扰乱你的睡眠并使你的睡眠时间变短，这又回到了卡尔·迪塞夫的评论。

We often see that patients will have problems staying asleep.

我们经常看到患者在睡眠方面存在问题。

They wake up in the middle of the night.

他们在半夜醒来。

They can't get back to sleep.

他们无法再入睡。

It's problematic, and therefore their sleep duration and their sleep quality decrease.

这是有问题的，因此他们的睡眠时间和睡眠质量都会下降。

However, on the other hand, there is an interesting question, by the way, of can you get too much sleep, which I should probably come back because there's a whole episode to do on that probably.

然而，另一方面，还有一个有趣的问题，顺便说一句，你会睡太多吗？我可能应该回来，因为可能有一整集要做。

But one of the places where we see, quote unquote, too much sleep is in the depression literature, and it's a condition that we call hypersomnia.

但我们在抑郁症文献中看到，睡眠过多，这种情况我们称之为嗜睡症。

In other words, increased or excessive degrees of sleep, hypersomnia.

换句话说，睡眠程度增加或过度，即嗜睡。

But a great PhD student at Berkeley looked at the data.

但伯克利大学的一位优秀博士生研究了这些数据。

Kate Kaplan, who's a fantastic cognitive behavioral therapist now and a clinical psychologist, looked a little bit at the data, and others have looked at this too.

凯特·卡普兰（Kate Kaplan）现在是一位出色的认知行为治疗师和临床心理学家，她研究了一些数据，其他人也研究了这一点。

When you examine what people were asking those patients, where there is this conclusion that patients with depression can sleep too long, really what they were asking in those studies was, what time do you go to bed, and what time do you wake up?

当你检查人们向这些患者提出的问题时，其中有抑郁症患者可以睡太长时间的结论，他们在这些研究中实际上问的是，你什么时候睡觉，什么时候起床？

And there, what you clearly find is that people with depression will be in bed for significantly longer periods of time.

在那里，你可以清楚地发现，抑郁症患者卧床的时间会明显更长。

And the inference there, and you could argue almost the conflation, is that if you're in bed for longer, then you're sleeping for longer, and therefore depression is a condition of hypersomnia.

那里的推论，你几乎可以争论合并，是，如果你在床上的时间更长，那么你睡的时间更长，因此抑郁症是嗜睡症的一种病症。

But when people looked at this a little bit more in a nuanced way and asked a different question, what time did you go to sleep and what time did you wake up, that hypersomnia phenomenon is nowhere near as strong as you would have been led to believe otherwise from the what time did you go to bed and what time did you wake up.

但当人们以更细致的方式看待这个问题并问一个不同的问题时，你什么时候睡觉，什么时间起床，这种嗜睡现象远没有你从你什么时间上床睡觉和什么时间起床所认为的那么强烈。

And I think part of the reason comes back to depression as a condition.

我认为部分原因可以归结为抑郁症。

When you think about depression, one of the aspects, one of the features is that you're depressed to the point where you just don't want to interact with the world.

当你想到抑郁症时，其中一个方面、一个特征就是你抑郁到不想与世界互动的程度。

And what better place to spend, if that's your mentality, than this thing called bed?

如果你的心态是这样的话，还有什么地方比床这个东西更好的地方呢？

I just don't want to get out of bed.

我只是不想起床。

I'm just going to stay here and lie in bed.

我只想留在这里躺在床上。

I'm awake.

我醒了。

I'm not asleep.

我没有睡着。

And so we don't quite know yet if depression is a condition that is associated with long sleep.

因此，我们还不太清楚抑郁症是否与长时间睡眠有关。

We certainly know it's associated with short sleep and disrupted sleep, or that is masquerading as this thing called hypersomnia, but when you really look at the data, it's not quite so clear.

我们当然知道它与睡眠不足和睡眠中断有关，或者伪装成睡眠过度，但当你真正查看数据时，情况并不那么清楚。

That was the first peculiarity in depression, that there could be this paradox of, yes, long sleep, but also not enough sleep, too short sleep.

这是抑郁症的第一个特点，可能存在这样的悖论：是的，睡眠时间长，但睡眠不足，睡眠时间太短。

One of the earliest findings in depression and sleep, and has been quite well replicated, is a change in REM sleep.

抑郁症和睡眠的最早发现之一是快速眼动睡眠的变化，并且已经得到很好的复制。

But now it wasn't necessarily that individuals who had depression slept or had excessive amounts of REM sleep.

但现在，患有抑郁症的人不一定会睡眠或有过多的快速眼动睡眠。

They had a little bit more.

他们还有一点点。

What was interesting is that when that REM sleep emerged during the night was much earlier.

有趣的是，夜间快速眼动睡眠出现的时间要早​​得多。

And in the first episode, I was telling you that when your head hits the pillow, you go down to the light stages of non-REM, then into the deeper stages, and then maybe after about 50, 60, 70, 80 minutes, you'll pop up and you'll have your short REM sleep period.

在第一集中，我告诉你，当你的头碰到枕头时，你会进入非快速眼动睡眠的浅阶段，然后进入更深的阶段，然后也许在大约 50、60、70、80 分钟后，你会突然出现，进入短暂的快速眼动睡眠期。

But that first REM sleep period in people with depression seemed to have been called up by the brain, abnormally or not, much earlier.

但抑郁症患者的第一个快速眼动睡眠期似乎是由大脑提前唤起的，无论是否异常。

So it's what we call REM sleep latency.

这就是我们所说的快速眼动睡眠潜伏期。

From the moment that you fell asleep, what is the time, what is the latency of the first arrival of REM sleep?

从你入睡的那一刻起，快速眼动睡眠第一次到来的时间是多少？

And that REM sleep latency was significantly shorter in those people with depression.

抑郁症患者的快速眼动睡眠潜伏期显着缩短。

REM sleep was arriving earlier.

快速眼动睡眠提前到来。

Now it's hard because you can argue, and these are the most dangerous hypotheses, you can argue both sides of it.

现在很难，因为你可以争论，而这些是最危险的假设，你可以争论它的双方。

You can say, well, perhaps that's because, Matt, you also spoke to me that REM sleep may be important for some aspects of the emotional brain And when you are depressed, the brain knows that REM sleep is required, and it calls it up on the menu of the series of dishes that you're going to be served earlier on in the night because it's needed more significantly.

你可以说，好吧，也许这是因为，马特，你也跟我说过，快速眼动睡眠可能对情绪大脑的某些方面很重要。当你抑郁时，大脑知道需要快速眼动睡眠，它会在晚上早些时候为你提供的一系列菜肴的菜单上调出它，因为它更需要。

And that's the adaptive theory.

这就是适应性理论。

The other is the maladaptive theory, which is that arriving with your REM sleep too early does not do your brain good things, and therefore it's some abnormality of emotional processing.

另一种是适应不良理论，即过早进入快速眼动睡眠对大脑没有好处，因此这是情绪处理的一些异常。

The data that's interesting there is that if you look at some antidepressants, many of them will either delay the onset of REM sleep or they will reduce it significantly.

有趣的数据是，如果你观察一些抗抑郁药，就会发现其中许多药物要么会延迟快速眼动睡眠的开始，要么会显着减少快速眼动睡眠。

Now, there's a huge debate about the efficacy and the utility of antidepressants, and I don't have a horse in that race, and I don't know enough about that literature to comment.

现在，关于抗抑郁药的功效和实用性存在着巨大的争论，而我在那场比赛中没有一匹马，而且我对这些文献的了解也不够多，无法发表评论。

I would simply say, though, that it's at least intriguing to me that some medications that are commonly prescribed as antidepressants will alter specifically REM sleep and push it later or try to reduce it down.

不过，我只想说，至少让我感兴趣的是，一些通常作为抗抑郁药开出的药物会专门改变快速眼动睡眠，并将其推迟或试图减少。

And that would fit with the maladaptive hypothesis that this arrival of REM sleep so early in depression and perhaps having a little too much REM sleep isn't optimal.

这符合适应不良的假设，即在抑郁症中如此早地出现快速眼动睡眠，并且可能有太多的快速眼动睡眠并不是最佳的。

And when you push back against that with pharmacology, i.e. antidepressants, you seem to get some degree of resolution or reduction in the depression symptomatology.

当你用药理学（即抗抑郁药）来对抗这一点时，抑郁症症状似乎得到了一定程度的解决或减轻。

Again, I don't think we clearly understand that.

再说一次，我认为我们还没有清楚地理解这一点。

Another strange thing that has been often cited to me many times about sleep and depression is a literature that suggests that if you deprive people of sleep, which time and again in this episode we've said leads to bad outcomes for mental health, it does exactly the opposite in depression.

关于睡眠和抑郁症，我经常被引用的另一件奇怪的事情是，有文献表明，如果你剥夺人们的睡眠，我们在这一集中多次说过这会导致心理健康的不良后果，那么它对抑郁症的作用恰恰相反。

That if you sleep-deprive a depressed patient, you get a resolution of the depression, and that is the claim that's often made to me.

如果你剥夺抑郁症患者的睡眠，你的抑郁症就会得到缓解，这就是我经常听到的说法。

Now, it is a very clear set of data in the literature, but there are two potential concerns with it.

现在，这是文献中一组非常清晰的数据，但它存在两个潜在的问题。

The first concern is that not all patients respond to sleep deprivation.

首先要担心的是，并非所有患者都对睡眠剥夺有反应。

In fact, if you look at the data, it's somewhere between 30% to 55% of patients will be responders to sleep deprivation.

事实上，如果你看一下数据，就会发现 30% 到 55% 的患者会对睡眠剥夺做出反应。

The other proportion of those patients don't respond, or if anything, get worse when you sleep deprive them.

另一部分患者则没有反应，或者如果睡眠不足的话，情况会变得更糟。

And then the question is, well, how would you know?

然后问题是，你怎么知道？

And right now-- and there have been some brain imaging studies, some PET studies done way back at UC Irvine and other locations where they were trying to say, is there something about the metabolic activity of your brain that can predict if you're a responder or not to sleep deprivation?

现在，已经有一些脑成像研究、一些 PET 研究早在加州大学欧文分校和其他地方进行，他们试图说，大脑的代谢活动是否可以预测你是否对睡眠剥夺有反应？

Because at least then we would know who should we push through this, quote-unquote, treatment and who should we not, because it's going to be bad for them.

因为至少那时我们会知道我们应该对谁进行这种治疗，以及我们不应该对谁进行这种治疗，因为这对他们不利。

That's the first issue, and we don't have a clear understanding.

这是第一个问题，我们还没有一个清晰的认识。

The second issue is that as soon as those patients with depression sleep after the deprivation, the antidepressant benefit goes away, and they go right back to being depressed again.

第二个问题是，一旦那些抑郁症患者在剥夺睡眠后入睡，抗抑郁药的效果就会消失，他们会再次陷入抑郁状态。

So yes, it's a mechanistically interesting process.

所以，是的，这是一个机械上有趣的过程。

What is it about sleep deprivation that could alleviate depression?

睡眠不足可以缓解抑郁症吗？

And I'll explain why I think it can.

我将解释为什么我认为可以。

But it's not a sustainable one.

但这不是可持续的。

It's not a clinically viable one.

这不是一种临床上可行的方法。

Why would it have that effect if it does?

如果有的话为什么会有这样的效果呢？

Well, you and I discussed earlier in this episode that when you are sleep deprived, not only does your emotional brain become much more responsive to negative things, it also becomes much more responsive to rewarding positive things.

好吧，你和我在本集前面讨论过，当你睡眠不足时，你的情绪大脑不仅对消极事物变得更加敏感，而且对奖励积极事物也变得更加敏感。

Speaker 3:

演讲者3：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And one of the interesting things that I think people mistake about depression, they just think that when I'm depressed, I have sad mood, I have negative mood.

我认为人们对抑郁症的误解之一是，他们只是认为当我抑郁时，我有悲伤的情绪，我有消极的情绪。

That's not entirely true.

这并不完全正确。

One of the principal features of depression is something that we call anhedonia, which is an absence of having the ability to have hedonic responses.

抑郁症的主要特征之一就是我们所说的快感缺失，即缺乏享乐反应的能力。

In other words, you can't get pleasure from normally pleasurable things.

换句话说，你无法从通常令人愉快的事情中获得快乐。

It's not an issue about sliding down to the negative.

这不是滑向负面的问题。

It's the absence of being able to experience the positive that puts you on a track towards depression.

正是因为无法体验到积极的一面，你才会陷入抑郁。

And what you and I discussed earlier in this episode is some of the work that we've been doing where when you sleep deprive individuals, but you show them very rewarding-based stimuli, they become much more reward-sensitive.

你和我在本集前面讨论的是我们一直在做的一些工作，当你剥夺个人的睡眠时，但你向他们展示非常基于奖励的刺激，他们就会变得对奖励更加敏感。

And perhaps this is why patients will respond to sleep deprivation with depression, because they're too far away from that positive end of the spectrum.

也许这就是为什么患者会因睡眠不足而出现抑郁症，因为他们离积极的一端太远了。

They're not reward-sensitive enough.

他们对奖励不够敏感。

They don't get a positive good feeling.

他们没有得到积极的良好感觉。

Now, if you're someone who is healthy and you're sleep deprived, you go too far in the reward direction, and you become vulnerable to reward and sensation-seeking.

现在，如果你是一个健康的人，但睡眠不足，你就会在奖励方向上走得太远，并且你会变得容易受到奖励和寻求感觉的影响。

But if you're depressed and you're shifted to sort of away from that, and sleep deprivation brings you back closer to a normative reward-based reactivity, maybe that's the reason why you get this antidepressant benefit and why when you start sleeping again, you take away that enhanced reward sensitivity, and you lose the antidepressant benefit.

但如果你感到抑郁，并且你的情绪有所偏离，而睡眠不足会让你更接近基于奖励的规范反应，也许这就是你获得这种抗抑郁益处的原因，也是为什么当你再次开始睡眠时，你会失去增强的奖励敏感性，并失去抗抑郁益处。

So I think we still don't know enough about depression and sleep yet.

所以我认为我们对抑郁症和睡眠的了解还不够。

If you were to ask me of the four, quantity, quality, regularity, and timing, which would be ideal, I would say all four are definitely players, but timing may have some of the best evidence, because it's not just about sleep when it comes to depression.

如果你问我，数量、质量、规律性和时机这四个因素中哪一个是理想的，我会说这四个因素绝对都是玩家，但时机可能有一些最好的证据，因为当谈到抑郁症时，这不仅仅是睡眠的问题。

It's also about your circadian rhythm, that if you are not aligned with your natural chronotype, your natural 24-hour rhythm, circadian misalignment when you fall out of synchrony with your natural chronotype Is a strong predictor of depression.

它还与您的昼夜节律有关，如果您与自然生物钟类型不一致，您的自然 24 小时节律、当您与自然生物钟类型不同步时的昼夜节律失调是抑郁症的强烈预测因素。

So if there is an actionable item first, it would be to say from a big-picture perspective, understand that sleep is one of the least painful available options for you as a no cost to try to stabilize your mental health.

因此，如果首先有一个可操作的项目，那就是从大局的角度来看，要明白睡眠是对你来说痛苦最小的选择之一，因为它可以免费稳定你的心理健康。

Now, I'm not suggesting that all psychiatric conditions are sleep disorders.

现在，我并不是说所有的精神疾病都是睡眠障碍。

That's not true.

那不是真的。

And I'm not suggesting that you should stop simply at the place of getting your sleep straight to help with your mental conditions.

我并不是建议你仅仅停止睡觉就能帮助改善你的精神状况。

Not at all.

一点也不。

I am saying, however, that if you do get your sleep straight, it's only going to help and may help quite a significant amount based on the data.

然而，我要说的是，如果你确实睡好了觉，那只会有帮助，而且根据数据，可能会有相当大的帮助。

But when it comes to depression, I would say of those four, QQRT, there's very strong emerging data that circadian misalignment, not matching your chronotype to the time when you are sleeping and the time you are awake, is one of the strongest factors.

但说到抑郁症，我想说，在这四个因素中，QQRT，有非常有力的新兴数据表明，昼夜节律失调，即你的生物钟类型与你睡觉的时间和清醒的时间不匹配，是最重要的因素之一。

So if you want to say, "I can't do all of them, Matt.

所以如果你想说，“我不能做所有这些，马特。

I can't do all of this QQRT nonsense.

我不能做所有这些 QQRT 废话。

Just tell me one of them to start with." I would say, don't worry.

请先告诉我其中一个。”我会说，别担心。

We'll get to the three others.

我们会去找另外三个人。

Let's just start with getting your timing right.

让我们从正确的时机开始吧。

Let's understand what type you are.

让我们了解一下您属于哪种类型。

Go online and you can take one of these tests, the MEQ, the Morningness Eveningness Questionnaire.

上网，您可以参加其中一项测试，MEQ，即早晚问卷。

You can just Google it and it's free.

你可以用谷歌搜索它，而且它是免费的。

You can do it.

你可以做到的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We'll provide a link to it in the show note captions.

我们将在节目注释标题中提供指向它的链接。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

That's great.

太好了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Understand what type you are and then try to understand based on what time I'm currently awake and asleep, is it matched?

了解你是什么类型，然后尝试根据我目前醒着和睡着的时间来了解，是否匹配？

Is it mismatched?

是不是不匹配了？

And if it's mismatched, try to see what you can do with your lifestyle, accommodating, of course, to match that.

如果不匹配，请尝试看看您可以如何调整自己的生活方式，当然，要适应它。

Things will more than likely start there getting better.

事情很可能会从那里开始变得更好。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Along those lines, and if I may, I'd like to just mention a recent study that I think dovetails with what you just said beautifully and seems highly actionable to me.

沿着这些思路，如果可以的话，我想提一下最近的一项研究，我认为该研究与您刚才所说的精彩内容相吻合，并且对我来说似乎非常可行。

This was a study published in Nature Mental Health, which is a relatively new journal.

这是发表在《自然心理健康》杂志上的一项研究，这是一本相对较新的杂志。

But it involved exploring the light exposure and dark exposure patterns of I believe it was more than 80,000 individuals.

但它涉及探索光照和黑暗暴露模式，我相信有超过 80,000 个人。

I'll have to go back and check that.

我得回去检查一下。

But what was interesting is that when they looked at light exposure, in particular sunlight exposure, and they looked at darkness exposure across the 24-hour schedule, what they concluded was that there was a near linear relationship between the amount of light that one gets in the morning and throughout the day, and reduction in mental health challenges in terms of depression, PTSD.

但有趣的是，当他们观察 24 小时内的光照情况，特别是阳光照射情况，以及黑暗情况情况时，他们得出的结论是，早上和全天接受的光照量与抑郁症、创伤后应激障碍 (PTSD) 等心理健康挑战的减少之间存在近乎线性的关系。

There were a few others.

还有其他几个人。

Some of the effects were less robust for certain psychiatric conditions than they were for, say, depression.

其中一些对某些精神疾病的影响不如对抑郁症等疾病的影响大。

What was equally interesting is that darkness, the absence of light, turned out to be as important a variable as light during the day.

同样有趣的是，黑暗，即没有光，在白天被证明是与光一样重要的变量。

Made simple, if people tended to be in dim or dark light at night, they experienced reductions in their suicidal, depressive, anxiety, and PTSD symptoms independent of how much light they were getting during the day.

简单来说，如果人们在晚上倾向于处于昏暗或黑暗的光线下，他们的自杀、抑郁、焦虑和创伤后应激障碍症状就会减少，而与白天接受的光线多少无关。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So what this says is get as much light as one can possibly and safely get in their eyes, by the way, in the morning and throughout the day, and then do one's very best to be in very dim or dark environments at night.

因此，顺便说一句，在早上和全天，让尽可能多的光线安全地进入眼睛，然后在晚上尽最大努力处于非常昏暗或黑暗的环境中。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It even goes so far as to say that if you didn't get sunlight during the day, then you would be especially well off being in a very dark environment at night.

甚至可以说，如果你白天没有阳光，那么晚上你就会处于非常黑暗的环境中。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And it's independent, so don't worry.

而且它是独立的，所以不用担心。

Yes, it's always good to get that daylight, but what that paper also teaches us is that because those things can be independent, you can still get some benefit even if though you've not made a good on your daylight during the day.

是的，获得日光总是好的，但那篇论文还告诉我们，因为这些东西可以是独立的，所以即使你在白天没有充分利用日光，你仍然可以获得一些好处。

Getting that darkness at night is still going to be beneficial.

晚上的黑暗仍然是有益的。

And I should probably resolve what some people may think of as confusing.

我或许应该解决一些人可能认为令人困惑的问题。

We spoke about, for example, suicide risk and it being highest in the depths of the darkness at night.

例如，我们谈到了自杀风险，在夜间的黑暗深处自杀风险最高。

I think what's clear from that paper comes onto one of the fundamental conventional tips that we spoke about in how to optimize your sleep, not just an unconventional, but the conventional, which was I told you we are a dark-deprived society, and we need darkness at night to help keep our sleep regular, so the sort of the R in the QQRT.

我认为这篇论文清楚地表明了我们谈到的如何优化睡眠的基本传统技巧之一，不仅仅是非常规的，而是传统的，我告诉过你我们是一个黑暗剥夺的社会，我们需要晚上的黑暗来帮助我们保持睡眠规律，所以就是 QQRT 中的 R。

And I think there in that paper, the inference, of course, is that if you're getting dark at night, it's going to give you a nice sleep onset signal so that you are asleep at night in the darkness, and that sleep at night in the darkness provides this beneficial sort of not immunization, but at least palliative help to certain psychiatric conditions.

我认为在那篇论文中，当然，推论是，如果你在晚上变黑，它会给你一个很好的睡眠开始信号，这样你就可以在黑暗中入睡，而晚上在黑暗中睡眠提供的这种有益的不是免疫，而是至少对某些精神疾病有姑息帮助。

We're not suggesting that darkness at night if you're awake at night, however, is beneficial.

然而，我们并不是说，如果您晚上醒着，晚上的黑暗是有益的。

That seems to be not beneficial.

这似乎并没有什么好处。

But it was such a great paper and very elegant in how it dissected the independent nature of these things, which fits very well with, I think, your mission in part in life, both as a scientist and as an educator, which is how can I curate information, gather it together, and give you some type of actionable boots-on-the-ground, feet-in-the-trenches advice as to what to do.

但这是一篇很棒的论文，非常优雅地剖析了这些事物的独立本质，我认为这非常符合你作为一名科学家和教育家的人生使命，即我如何整理信息，将其收集在一起，并为你提供一些切实可行的、脚踏实地的建议，告诉你该做什么。

It was a great paper, so thank you for bringing it up.

这是一篇很棒的论文，所以感谢您提出它。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

I only wish I'd done that study, but I'm so glad that others did.

我只希望我能完成这项研究，但我很高兴其他人也这样做了。

One thing that's been helpful to me to encourage more darkness and dim light at night for myself and my home environment is to think about Artificial photons coming from artificial sources are sort of empty calories at night.

对我来说，鼓励自己和我的家庭环境在晚上有更多黑暗和昏暗光线的一件事是有帮助的，那就是考虑来自人造源的人造光子在夜间是一种空卡路里。

And how sunlight, provided one isn't getting a burn, and people debate how best to do that.

如果阳光不被灼伤，人们会争论如何最好地做到这一点。

Physical barrier, everyone agrees on.

物理屏障，大​​家都同意。

Certain sunscreens are safer than others.

某些防晒霜比其他防晒霜更安全。

Some are very safe, some are perhaps less safe.

有些非常安全，有些可能不太安全。

In any event, the point is that trying to make one's home environment dark at night is, in my mind now, akin to trying to avoid eating sugary non-nutritious calories at night as well.

无论如何，重点是，在我看来，试图在晚上让自己的家庭环境变暗，类似于试图避免在晚上吃含糖的非营养卡路里。

It just lends itself to just overall feelings of well-being, improved sleep, and of course, improved daytime wakefulness.

它只会带来整体的幸福感、改善睡眠，当然还有改善白天的清醒度。

And then getting sunlight, even through cloud cover, in one's eyes early in the day and as much as is safely possible throughout the day.

然后在一天的早些时候，并在全天尽可能安全的情况下，让阳光照射到眼睛里，即使是透过云层。

And if one can't get sunlight, getting light from bright artificial sources seems to be the best alternative.

如果无法获得阳光，从明亮的人造光源获取光线似乎是最好的选择。

But I think there's this asymmetry of light-dark requirement in the same way that I think most everyone agrees that eating during one's active hours of the day is going to be the best way to go, as opposed to eating during the less active hours of the late night and certainly prior to sleep.

但我认为存在这种明暗要求的不对称性，就像我认为大多数人都同意在一天中活跃的时间进食将是最好的方法，而不是在深夜不太活跃的时间以及当然在睡觉前进食。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Such a good point.

这是一个很好的观点。

And since it's only you and I here, and no one else watching and witnessing this, I am thoroughly going to steal that phrase of junk light.

由于这里只有你和我，没有其他人在观看和见证这一切，所以我彻底要窃取垃圾光的那句话。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

And help educate people, because that's a perfect description.

并帮助教育人们，因为这是一个完美的描述。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's like empty photons.

就像空的光子一样。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Yeah, you've all heard of junk food.

是的，你们都听说过垃圾食品。

Well, there's something called junk light, and if you get your whole foods during the day, just like you get your whole kind of encompassed light during the day, that's great.

嗯，有一种叫做垃圾光的东西，如果你在白天吃全食物，就像你在白天吃全包围的光一样，那就太好了。

But then if you start binging on junk light at night, it's profoundly deleterious to your sleep and everything that sleep depends on.

但如果你在晚上开始大量使用垃圾灯，它会对你的睡眠和睡眠所依赖的一切产生极大的危害。

It's lovely.

很可爱。

So when people hear me in future public spheres talking about junk light, you know where it came from.

因此，当人们在未来的公共领域听到我谈论垃圾灯时，你就知道它来自哪里。

I will give you full credit.

我会给你充分的信任。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No, no need.

不，不需要。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

It's a delightful statement.

这是一个令人愉快的声明。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No need, because I may have lifted it from somebody else inadvertently.

不需要，因为我可能无意中从别人那里拿走了它。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

We all stand on the shoulders of other giants.

我们都站在其他巨人的肩膀上。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's right, or other Twitter accounts or something like that.

没错，或者其他 Twitter 帐户或类似的东西。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Well, I place myself firmly underneath a pedestal, but yes, we all try to stand on those shoulders of giants.

好吧，我把自己牢牢地置于基座之下，但是，是的，我们都试图站在巨人的肩膀上。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, wherever you place yourself, the information that emerges from you and that emerged today is absolutely spectacular.

好吧，无论你身处何处，从你身上以及今天出现的信息绝对是惊人的。

I can't think of topics more interesting and important than emotion regulation, anxiety, PTSD, suicide, sadly, depression.

我想不出比情绪调节、焦虑、创伤后应激障碍、自杀、可悲的抑郁症更有趣、更重要的话题了。

All of these things are tragic challenges, but they are a real part of life.

所有这些都是悲惨的挑战，但它们是生活的真实组成部分。

Some argue even more so nowadays, perhaps even because of the advent of so much artificial light and smartphone use in the middle of the night.

如今，有些人甚至更是如此，甚至可能是因为人造光和半夜使用智能手机的出现。

Who knows?

谁知道？

I think it's reasonable to assume it's at least one variable.

我认为假设它至少是一个变量是合理的。

Today, you've provided a ton of depth of understanding about why sleep and these mental health and emotional states are linked.

今天，您已经深入了解了睡眠与这些心理健康和情绪状态之间的关联。

Just a really clear logical framework for both the non-REM sleep and REM sleep and how it impacts mood and reactivity during the daytime.

对于非快速眼动睡眠和快速眼动睡眠以及它如何影响白天的情绪和反应性，这是一个非常清晰的逻辑框架。

And also some really actionable tools to improve one's mental health and emotionality.

还有一些真正可行的工具来改善一个人的心理健康和情绪。

Excuse me.

打扰一下。

And in addition to that, we'll refer people back to episodes one, two, three, and four, all of which include tools to improve every aspect of sleep and to really nail down the QQRT, that quality-- Do you put quality first or quantity?

除此之外，我们将让人们回顾第一集、第二集、第三集和第四集，所有这些都包括改善睡眠各个方面的工具，并真正确定 QQRT，即质量——你把质量放在第一位还是数量放在第一位？

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Quantity.

数量。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Quantity, I'm just making sure.

数量，我只是确认一下。

That QQRT, to really nail down the quantity, quality, regularity, and timing of sleep.

QQRT，真正确定睡眠的数量、质量、规律和时间。

We can no longer consider sleep just a six to eight hours, or get your nine hours or get your seven hours.

我们不能再认为睡眠只有六到八个小时，或者九个小时或七个小时。

Clearly, there are other variables involved, and you've made those variables very clear to us, and you've given us the roadmap to plug in the best variables for ourselves.

显然，还涉及其他变量，您已经让我们非常清楚地了解了这些变量，并且为我们提供了为我们自己插入最佳变量的路线图。

So thank you, Matt, ever so much.

非常感谢你，马特。

Dr. Matthew Walker:

马修·沃克博士：

Thank you for allowing me to both voice and narrate the important story of sleep and mental health.

感谢您让我说出并讲述睡眠和心理健康的重要故事。

It's something I'm immensely passionate about, both from a personal perspective, but also from a professional research perspective.

无论是从个人角度还是从专业研究角度来看，这是我非常热衷的事情。

Thank you for this opportunity.

感谢您给我这个机会。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, again, thank you, Matt, and I'm very much looking forward to the sixth installment in this series on sleep, which is about a topic that everybody is fascinated with, which is dreaming.

好吧，再次感谢你，马特，我非常期待这个关于睡眠的系列的第六部分，这是一个每个人都着迷的话题，那就是做梦。

I know you're going to tell us about dreams and what they mean, perhaps what they don't mean.

我知道你会告诉我们关于梦以及它们的含义，也许它们并不意味着什么。

We'll get into dream interpretation of all things, lucid dreaming, and much, much more.

我们将深入了解所有事物的梦境解释、清醒梦等等。

So I really look forward to that discussion in episode six.

所以我真的很期待第六集的讨论。

Thank you for joining me for today's episode with Dr. Matthew Walker.

感谢您接受我今天与马修·沃克博士的节目。

To learn more about Dr. Walker's research and to learn more about his book and his social media handles, please see the links in our show note captions.

要了解有关沃克博士的研究的更多信息以及有关他的书和社交媒体处理的更多信息，请参阅我们的节目注释标题中的链接。

If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.

如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。

That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.

这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。

In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify and Apple.

此外，请在 Spotify 和 Apple 上订阅该播客。

And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.

在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。

Please also check out the sponsors at the beginning and throughout today's episode.

还请在今天的节目开始和整个节目中查看赞助商。

That's the best way to support this podcast.

这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。

If you have any questions for me or comments about the podcast or topics or guests that you'd like me to feature on the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.

如果您对我有任何疑问或对您希望我在 Huberman Lab 播客上介绍的播客或主题或嘉宾有任何意见，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。

I do read all the comments.

我确实阅读了所有评论。

On many episodes of the Huberman Lab podcast, we discuss supplements.

在休伯曼实验室播客的许多剧集中，我们讨论了补充剂。

While supplements aren't necessary for everybody, many people derive tremendous benefit from them, for things like improving sleep, for hormone support, and for focus.

虽然补充剂并不是每个人都需要的，但许多人都从它们中获得了巨大的好处，例如改善睡眠、支持激素和集中注意力。

To learn more about the supplements discussed on the Huberman Lab podcast, go to Live Momentous, spelled O-U-S.

要了解有关 Huberman Lab 播客上讨论的补充剂的更多信息，请访问 Live Momentous（拼写为 O-U-S）。

That's livemomentous.com/huberman.

这是 livemomentous.com/huberman。

If you're not already following me on social media, I'm hubermanlab on all social media platforms, so that's Instagram, X, LinkedIn, Facebook, and Threads.

如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我在所有社交媒体平台上都是 hubermanlab，包括 Instagram、X、LinkedIn、Facebook 和 Threads。

And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content covered on the Huberman Lab podcast.

在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和科学相关工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客涵盖的内容不同。

So again, it's hubermanlab on all social media platforms.

再说一遍，所有社交媒体平台上都是 hubermanlab。

If you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, our Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost newsletter that provides podcast summaries as well as protocols in the form of brief one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from neuroplasticity and learning, to sleep, to deliberate cold exposure and deliberate heat exposure.

如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，我们的神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的时事通讯，它提供播客摘要以及简短的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从神经可塑性和学习、睡眠、刻意冷暴露和刻意热暴露等各个方面。

We have a foundational fitness protocol and much more, all of which, again, is completely zero cost.

我们有一个基本的健身协议等等，所有这些都是完全零成本的。

You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab, scroll down to Newsletter, and by supplying your email, you can subscribe.

您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到菜单选项卡，向下滚动到时事通讯，然后提供您的电子邮件即可订阅。

I want to point out that we do not share your email with anybody.

我想指出的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。

Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion all about sleep with Dr. Matthew Walker.

再次感谢您今天与马修·沃克博士一起参与有关睡眠的讨论。

And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。