Guest Series | Dr. Matt Walker: How to Structure Your Sleep, Use Naps & Time Caffeine
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab Guest Series, where I and an expert guest discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到胡伯曼实验室嘉宾系列，我和一位专家嘉宾讨论了日常生活中的科学和基于科学的工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
Today marks the third episode in our six-episode series all about sleep, with expert guest Dr. Matthew Walker.
今天是我们关于睡眠的六集系列节目的第三集，由专家嘉宾马修·沃克博士主持。
During today's episode, we discuss how to structure your sleep for optimal mental health, physical health, and performance.
在今天的节目中，我们将讨论如何安排睡眠以实现最佳的心理健康、身体健康和表现。
We discuss monophasic sleep schedules, which are the more typical sleep schedule where you go to sleep at night and then wake up in the morning, so sleeping in one bout, as opposed to polyphasic sleep schedules, which are when you sleep in two or more bouts, either at night or perhaps a shorter bout of sleep at night and another bout of sleep during the day.
我们讨论单相睡眠时间表，这是更典型的睡眠时间表，你晚上睡觉，然后早上醒来，所以睡一个回合，而不是多相睡眠时间表，多相睡眠时间表是你睡两次或两次以上，要么在晚上，要么可能是晚上较短的睡眠时间和白天的另一次睡眠时间。
We also discuss naps, including how to nap, how long your nap should be, whether or not naps are good or bad, in particular, whether or not they're good or bad for you.
我们还会讨论小睡，包括如何小睡、小睡应该持续多长时间、小睡是好是坏，特别是小睡对你来说是好是坏。
It turns out this varies according to individual.
事实证明，这因人而异。
We also discuss how your needs for sleep and naps vary across the lifespan.
我们还讨论了您在一生中对睡眠和小睡的需求如何变化。
And we discuss body position during sleep, which might seem excessively detailed, but it turns out that body position during sleep is critical for ensuring that the sleep you get is optimally restorative.
我们还讨论了睡眠期间的身体姿势，这可能看起来过于详细，但事实证明，睡眠期间的身体姿势对于确保您获得最佳的恢复性睡眠至关重要。
As with the first two episodes of this six-episode series, today's third episode is filled with both science, that is the biology of sleep and napping and body position and how those relate to one another, as well as practical tools that you can use to vastly improve your sleep.
与这个六集系列的前两集一样，今天的第三集充满了科学，即睡眠、小睡和身体姿势的生物学以及它们之间的相互关系，以及可用来极大改善睡眠的实用工具。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。
Our first sponsor is BetterHelp.
我们的第一个赞助商是 BetterHelp。
BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out online.
BetterHelp 提供由持证治疗师在线进行的专业治疗。
Now, I've been doing therapy for well over 30 years.
现在，我从事治疗已经超过 30 年了。
Initially, I had to do therapy against my will, but of course, I continued to do it voluntarily over time because I really believe that doing regular therapy with a quality therapist is one of the best things that we can do for our mental health.
最初，我不得不违背自己的意愿进行治疗，但当然，随着时间的推移，我继续自愿这样做，因为我真的相信，与优质治疗师一起进行定期治疗是我们可以为心理健康做的最好的事情之一。
Indeed, for many people, it's as beneficial as getting regular physical exercise.
事实上，对于许多人来说，这与定期进行体育锻炼一样有益。
The great thing about BetterHelp is that it makes it very easy to find a therapist that's optimal for your needs.
BetterHelp 的伟大之处在于，它可以让您轻松找到最适合您需求的治疗师。
And I think it's fair to say that we can define a great therapist as somebody with whom you have excellent rapport, somebody with whom you can talk about a variety of different issues, and who can provide you not just support, but also insight.
我认为可以公平地说，我们可以将优秀的治疗师定义为与您关系融洽、可以与您谈论各种不同问题、不仅可以为您提供支持，还可以为您提供见解的人。
And with BetterHelp, they make it extremely convenient so that it's matched to your schedule and other aspects of your life.
通过 BetterHelp，他们使其变得极其方便，以便与您的日程安排和生活的其他方面相匹配。
If you'd like to try BetterHelp, you can go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month.
如果您想尝试 BetterHelp，可以访问 betterhelp.com/huberman，第一个月可享受 10% 的折扣。
Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman.
再说一次，这是 betterhelp.com/huberman。
Today's episode is also brought to us by LMNT.
今天的节目也是LMNT给我们带来的。
LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.
LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。
That means plenty of the electrolytes, magnesium, potassium, and sodium, and no sugar.
这意味着需要大量的电解质、镁、钾和钠，并且不含糖。
As I've mentioned before on this podcast, I'm a big fan of salt.
正如我之前在这个播客中提到的，我是盐的忠实粉丝。
Now, I want to be clear.
现在，我想澄清一下。
People who already consume a lot of salt or who have high blood pressure or who happen to consume a lot of processed foods that typically contain salt need to control their salt intake.
已经摄入大量盐或患有高血压或恰好食用大量通常含有盐的加工食品的人需要控制盐的摄入量。
However, if you're somebody who eats pretty clean, and you're somebody who exercises, and you're drinking a lot of water, there's a decent chance that you could benefit from ingesting more electrolytes with your liquids.
然而，如果您饮食非常干净，并且经常锻炼，并且喝大量的水，那么您很有可能通过液体摄入更多的电解质而受益。
The reason for that is that all the cells in our body, including the nerve cells, the neurons, require the electrolytes in order to function properly.
原因是我们体内的所有细胞，包括神经细胞、神经元，都需要电解质才能正常运作。
So we don't just want to be hydrated.
所以我们不只是想补充水分。
We want to be hydrated with proper electrolyte levels.
我们希望通过适当的电解质水平补充水分。
With LMNT, that's very easy to do.
有了 LMNT，这很容易做到。
What I do is when I wake up in the morning, I consume about 16 to 32 ounces of water, and I'll dissolve a packet of LMNT in that water.
我所做的是，当我早上醒来时，我会喝大约 16 到 32 盎司的水，然后将一包 LMNT 溶解在水中。
I'll also do the same when I exercise, especially if it's on a hot day and I'm sweating a lot, and sometimes I'll even have a third LMNT packet dissolved in water if I'm exercising really hard or sweating a lot, or if I just notice that I'm not consuming enough salt with my food.
当我锻炼时，我也会做同样的事情，特别是在大热天，出汗很多的时候，有时，如果我锻炼得很辛苦或出汗很多，或者如果我只是注意到我在食物中没有摄入足够的盐，我什至会把第三包 LMNT 溶解在水中。
If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt, spelled L-M-N-T, .com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with your purchase.
如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt（拼写为 L-M-N-T，.com/huberman），在购买时索取免费的 LMNT 样品包。
Again, that's drinklmnt, L-M-N-T, .com/huberman.
再说一遍，这是 Drinklmnt，L-M-N-T，.com/huberman。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Waking Up.
今天的节目也是由Wakeing Up为我们带来的。
Waking Up is a meditation app that has hundreds of different meditations, as well as scripts for yoga nidra and non-sleep deep rest, or NSDR protocols.
Waking Up 是一款冥想应用程序，拥有数百种不同的冥想，以及瑜伽休息术和非睡眠深度休息（NSDR 协议）的脚本。
By now, there's an abundance of data showing that even short daily meditations can greatly improve our mood, reduce anxiety, improve our ability to focus, and can improve our memory.
到目前为止，有大量数据表明，即使是每天短暂的冥想也可以极大地改善我们的情绪，减少焦虑，提高我们的注意力，并可以提高我们的记忆力。
And while there are many different forms of meditation, most people find it difficult to find and stick to a meditation practice in a way that is most beneficial for them.
虽然冥想有许多不同的形式，但大多数人发现很难找到并坚持对他们最有益的冥想练习。
The Waking Up app makes it extremely easy to learn how to meditate and to carry out your daily meditation practice in a way that's going to be most effective and efficient for you.
Wake Up 应用程序让您可以非常轻松地学习如何冥想，并以对您来说最有效和高效的方式进行日常冥想练习。
It includes a variety of different types of meditations of different duration, as well as things like yoga nidra, which place the brain and body into a sort of pseudo-sleep that allows you to emerge feeling incredibly mentally refreshed.
它包括各种不同类型、不同持续时间的冥想，以及瑜伽休息术等，它可以让大脑和身体进入一种假睡眠状态，让你在醒来时感觉精神焕发。
In fact, the science around yoga nidra is really impressive, showing that after a yoga nidra session, levels of dopamine in certain areas of the brain are enhanced by up to 60%, which places the brain and body into a state of enhanced readiness for mental work and for physical work.
事实上，有关瑜伽休息术的科学确实令人印象深刻，表明在瑜伽休息术之后，大脑某些区域的多巴胺水平提高了 60%，这使大脑和身体进入一种为脑力工作和体力工作做好准备的状态。
Another thing I really like about the Waking Up app is that it provides a 30-day introduction course.
我真正喜欢 Waking Up 应用程序的另一件事是它提供了 30 天的入门课程。
So for those of you that have not meditated before or are getting back to a meditation practice, that's fantastic.
因此，对于那些以前没有冥想过或正在重新进行冥想练习的人来说，这真是太棒了。
Or if you're somebody who's already a skilled and regular meditator, Waking Up has more advanced meditations and yoga nidra sessions for you as well.
或者，如果您已经是一名熟练且定期的冥想者，Wake Up 也为您提供更高级的冥想和瑜伽休息课程。
If you'd like to try the Waking Up app, you can go to wakingup.com/huberman and access a free 30-day trial.
如果您想尝试 Waking Up 应用程序，可以访问 wakingup.com/huberman 并获得 30 天的免费试用。
Again, that's wakingup.com/huberman.
再说一遍，那就是 wakingup.com/huberman。
And now for my conversation with Dr. Matthew Walker.
现在是我与马修·沃克博士的对话。
Dr. Walker, welcome back.
沃克博士，欢迎回来。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Dr. Huberman, an absolute pleasure.
胡伯曼博士，绝对是我的荣幸。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's talk about the different types of sleep, because I think most people think of sleep as just one thing.
让我们来谈谈不同类型的睡眠，因为我认为大多数人认为睡眠只是一件事。
Most people sleep at night.
大多数人晚上睡觉。
Some people also nap, a topic we'll also discuss today.
有些人也会打瞌睡，这也是我们今天要讨论的话题。
But turns out there are a lot of different types of sleep.
但事实证明，睡眠有很多不同类型。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What are the different types of sleep, and what do they do for us?
有哪些不同类型的睡眠，它们对我们有什么作用？
And I guess everyone's probably wondering already.
我想每个人可能都想知道。
I certainly am What types of sleep are we already engaging in?
我当然是 我们已经在进行什么类型的睡眠？
Meaning, am I involved in or having multiple types of sleep each night?
意思是，我每晚是否参与或有多种类型的睡眠？
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
This is a fascinating question, and it comes back to something we've discussed in a previous episode.
这是一个有趣的问题，它又回到了我们在上一集中讨论过的问题。
The different stages of sleep and how they unfold, we've described that.
我们已经描述了睡眠的不同阶段及其如何展开。
Fascinating stuff.
令人着迷的东西。
What you're really asking, though, is an incredibly sort of subtle but relevant question.
不过，您真正要问的是一个令人难以置信的微妙但相关的问题。
How should I be sleeping in terms of the phases of sleep?
从睡眠阶段来看，我应该怎样睡觉？
Should I have one phase?
我应该只有一个阶段吗？
Should I have two phases of sleep, or should I have many phases of sleep?
我应该有两个阶段的睡眠，还是应该有多个阶段的睡眠？
In some ways, you can answer that question on the basis of the lifespan, because how it is that we sleep in terms of those chunking sessions changes as we develop.
在某些方面，你可以根据寿命来回答这个问题，因为我们的睡眠方式随着我们的发育而改变。
To be clear in nomenclature, I'm saying monophasic, biphasic, polyphasic.
为了清楚地命名，我说的是单相、双相、多相。
Unpack that.
打开包装。
Monophasic obviously just simply means a single phase, monophasic.
单相显然只是简单地表示单相、单相。
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And when you say phase, you mean one bout of sleep.
当你说阶段时，你指的是一轮睡眠。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
So that would be within a 24-hour period, you are having a single bout of sleep.
也就是说，在 24 小时内，您只睡了一次睡眠。
Biphasic then means that within that 24-hour phase, you are having two bouts of sleep.
双相意味着在 24 小时阶段内，您有两次睡眠。
And we'll speak about how those bouts are split up.
我们将讨论这些回合是如何划分的。
Are they split up between two halves in the middle of the night, or are they split up in terms of longer at night and siesta-like nap in the afternoon?
他们是在半夜分成两半，还是在晚上更长的时间和下午像午睡一样的小睡方面分开？
And then we can speak about polyphasic sleep.
然后我们可以谈谈多相睡眠。
Polyphasic sleep, we in sleep science have been using for many years in the context of infancy, because there, as any new parents will know, infants do not just simply have a nice single bout of sleep.
多相睡眠，我们睡眠科学界多年来一直在婴儿期使用，因为正如任何新父母都知道的那样，婴儿不仅仅只是有一次良好的睡眠。
They're up, they're down, they're up, they're down, and they have many bouts of sleep within that 24-hour period, and that's polyphasic sleep.
他们起来，他们下来，他们起来，他们下来，他们在 24 小时内有很多次睡眠，这就是多相睡眠。
The other term or the other application of that term, polyphasic sleep, has been used more so in the sort of interesting biohacker movement, and we'll come back to that perhaps later on.
另一个术语或该术语的其他应用，多相睡眠，在某种有趣的生物黑客运动中被更多地使用，我们也许稍后会回到这个问题。
So how do these different phases of sleep change across the lifespan?
那么，这些不同的睡眠阶段在一生中是如何变化的呢？
Well, we've already said that when you're an infant and you're first born, within the first year of life, you are incredibly polyphasic, and you are probably going through wake-sleep phases every two hours.
好吧，我们已经说过，当你还是个婴儿时，在你出生的第一年里，你的身体处于令人难以置信的多相状态，你可能每两个小时就会经历一次清醒睡眠阶段。
Why do you do that?
你为什么这么做？
Why can't you just simply be born and sleep in a monophasic way?
为什么你不能简单地以单相方式出生和睡眠呢？
It's for at least two reasons.
至少有两个原因。
First, an infant needs to feed every two hours, so their energy needs and their food intake requirements dictate that you can't sleep for very long because you need to be awake to feed, and then you go back to sleep.
首先，婴儿需要每两个小时喂一次奶，因此他们的能量需求和食物摄入量要求决定了你不能睡太久，因为你需要醒着喂奶，然后再回去睡觉。
Within probably the first six months, things will start to change a little bit, but the second reason that you are highly polyphasic when you are first born is because your suprachiasmatic nucleus, and in another episode, we spoke about this central master 24-hour clock that beats out your circadian rhythm, the rise and the fall, the wake and the sleep.
可能在前六个月内，事情会开始发生一些变化，但你出生时高度多相的第二个原因是你的视交叉上核，在另一集中，我们谈到了这个中央主24小时时钟，它控制着你的昼夜节律、起落、醒来和睡眠。
That has not yet developed.
那还没有发展起来。
It hasn't been glued into place into the brain, this 24-hour clock.
这个 24 小时时钟还没有被粘在大脑中。
So the infant seemingly knows nothing about when it's light or when it's dark outside.
所以婴儿似乎对外面什么时候天亮什么时候天黑一无所知。
They're just awake or asleep, awake or asleep.
他们只是醒着或睡着，醒着或睡着。
So that's the second reason.
这是第二个原因。
Energy feeding needs is the first, and then an absence of yet a fully developed 24-hour clock in the brain to beat out that beautiful dictated rhythm.
首先是能量供给需求，其次是大脑中尚未发育完全的 24 小时时钟的缺失，无法敲出美妙的指定节奏。
By about age one, that number of phases of sleep are starting to decrease, but it's still highly polyphasic.
到一岁左右，睡眠阶段的数量开始减少，但仍然是高度多相的。
It's not until you get to probably age two or three that now you're starting to see this consolidation of sleep.
直到你大概两三岁的时候，你才开始看到这种睡眠的巩固。
What do I mean by that?
我这么说是什么意思？
Sleep is now happening more dominantly in the night phase of the 24-hour cycle, and there are fewer bouts of sleep during the daytime.
现在，睡眠更多地发生在 24 小时周期的夜间阶段，白天的睡眠次数较少。
Then perhaps by the time you're in kindergarten, you may be down to just two sleeps.
然后，也许到你上幼儿园的时候，你的睡眠时间可能会减少到只有两次。
So now we've switched from polyphasic sleep as infants to biphasic sleep as kindergarten.
所以现在我们已经从婴儿时期的多相睡眠转变为幼儿园时的双相睡眠。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could you describe those biphasic patterns?
您能描述一下这些双相模式吗？
I recall in kindergarten having nap time in the afternoon.
我记得在幼儿园，下午有午睡时间。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They'd put out these little mats-
他们会铺上这些小垫子-
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Mats
垫子
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and every kid would just kind of like roll up.
每个孩子都会喜欢卷起来。
It actually sounds really nice.
实际上听起来真的很好。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
And we'll speak about how some adults do this, too, but almost every kindergarten system that I've inquired about around the world, different nations, they all have this nap time.
我们也会讨论一些成年人是如何做到这一点的，但我在世界各地、不同国家询问过的几乎每个幼儿园系统，他们都有午睡时间。
And any teacher will tell you if one of those children does not nap during that period of time, they are the loose cannon.
任何老师都会告诉你，如果其中一个孩子在那段时间没有小睡，他们就是松散的大炮。
They are the live wire.
它们是带电电线。
And in subsequent episodes, we'll speak about exactly how sleep harnesses and improves our emotional and mental health and how it falls apart when we don't.
在接下来的几集中，我们将详细讨论睡眠如何利用和改善我们的情绪和心理健康，以及当我们不这样做时，它是如何崩溃的。
So that's how it certainly is emerging biologically, and that's how we as a society respect that and accommodate that.
这就是它在生物学上的出现方式，这就是我们作为一个社会尊重和适应这一点的方式。
And then probably by the age of starting school, so sort of five or six, now we're starting to see fully monophasic sleep, children sleeping long bouts at night and then being able to sustain wakefulness during the day.
然后可能到了开始上学的年龄，大约五六岁，现在我们开始看到完全的单相睡眠，孩子们在晚上睡很长时间，然后能够在白天保持清醒。
At that point, you have locked in your monophasic pattern, and that will continue throughout adulthood and into old age, with a few caveats that we'll speak about.
那时，你已经锁定了你的单相模式，并且这种模式将持续整个成年期直至老年，但有一些我们将要讨论的注意事项。
So that's how sleep unfolds in the monophasic, biphasic, polyphasic sleep across the lifespan.
这就是整个生命周期中睡眠如何以单相、双相、多相睡眠的方式展开。
It doesn't quite tell you, however, how those different stages of sleep change across the lifespan.
然而，它并没有完全告诉您这些不同的睡眠阶段在整个生命周期中如何变化。
So I've shown you the view of sleep across the lifespan through one lens of the microscope.
因此，我通过显微镜的一个镜头向您展示了整个生命周期中的睡眠视图。
If we click down one lens and focus more deeply on the different stages of sleep, there we see a fascinating story In utero, for the most part, you are in a sleep-like state as a fetus once you get to a certain point of development.
如果我们按下一个镜头，更深入地关注睡眠的不同阶段，我们就会看到一个引人入胜的故事：在子宫内，在大多数情况下，一旦达到某个发育阶段，胎儿就处于类似睡眠的状态。
In utero, that sleep-like state seems to be more so something that looks like REM sleep.
在子宫内，这种类似睡眠的状态似乎更像是快速眼动睡眠。
Now, it's not fully-fledged, full-fat REM sleep yet, but it seems to be something very much like REM sleep.
现在，它还不是成熟的、全脂的快速眼动睡眠，但它似乎非常像快速眼动睡眠。
I say this because in the first episode, I told you as we go into REM sleep and we start to, as adults, dream, the brain paralyzes the body so that the mind can dream safely.
我这么说是因为在第一集中，我告诉过你，当我们进入快速眼动睡眠时，作为成年人，我们开始做梦，大脑会麻痹身体，以便心灵可以安全地做梦。
Those kicks and those punches and those elbows that a mother will feel from the fetus seem to be during this dream state often, and I don't want to shatter any illusions of you start singing or you're cooing, and you get these bumps and these elbows and these legs kicking, and it's beautiful.
母亲从胎儿那里感受到的那些踢、那些拳头和那些肘部似乎经常出现在这种梦境状态中，我不想粉碎你开始唱歌或咕咕叫的任何幻想，你会看到这些颠簸、这些肘部和这些腿踢，这很美丽。
It is beautiful, but it turns out that it's probably the REM sleep state, but the muscle sort of paralysis has not yet developed.
很漂亮，但事实证明，这可能是快速眼动睡眠状态，但肌肉那种麻痹状态还没有发展起来。
So you're getting these electrical bursts, this frenetic activity of REM sleep that we described, but you're not getting any of the blockade of the motor output.
所以你会得到这些电流爆发，即我们所描述的快速眼动睡眠的疯狂活动，但你不会受到任何电机输出的封锁。
And so it expresses itself as these kicks and these bumps.
所以它表现为这些踢和这些颠簸。
And then during the first six months of life, and at that point in the first six months, those infants are sleeping anywhere between 14 to 17 hours a day.
然后在生命的前 6 个月，以及在前 6 个月的那个时间点，这些婴儿每天的睡眠时间在 14 到 17 小时之间。
It's immense, isn't it?
这是巨大的，不是吗？
It's right up there.
它就在那里。
If you look across phylogeny, and you ask, which is by the way, a fascinating topic.
如果你纵观系统发育史，你会问，顺便说一句，这是一个令人着迷的话题。
At some point, we should do a separate podcast on sleep across different species because I know, like me, you love the whole variety of species.
在某些时候，我们应该制作一个关于不同物种睡眠的单独播客，因为我知道，像我一样，你喜欢所有物种。
But you've got elephants who will sleep as little as four hours, and then you've got the little brown bat, who is the rockstar of sleep.
但大象的睡眠时间只有四个小时，还有小棕色蝙蝠，它是睡眠界的摇滚明星。
And it will sleep almost 17 to 18 hours a day.
而且它每天会睡差不多17到18个小时。
It nudges out the sloth in that sense.
从这个意义上说，它把树懒赶走了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Can I ask you a question about that little brown bat?
我可以问你一个关于那只小棕色蝙蝠的问题吗？
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Does it sleep hanging upside down?
睡觉的时候是倒立着的吗？
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
It does.
确实如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it can't have sleep paralysis in its little claws.
所以它的小爪子不可能有睡眠麻痹症。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
So it will not have that paralysis, but it goes through the stages of sleep very quickly, and this happens with birds as well.
所以它不会出现瘫痪，但它很快就会进入睡眠阶段，鸟类也会发生这种情况。
So birds that flock on a branch, they will sleep, and they sleep in some fascinating ways, sometimes with one half of the brain, sometimes with both halves.
因此，聚集在树枝上的鸟儿会睡觉，而且它们以一些令人着迷的方式睡觉，有时用半脑，有时用半脑。
But then you say, well, if I'm on a branch and there's this wonderful force called gravity underneath me, and I go into REM sleep, and I have that muscle paralysis, which they do, how does that work?
但你会说，好吧，如果我在一根树枝上，我下面有一种叫做重力的奇妙力量，我进入快速眼动睡眠，我就会出现肌肉麻痹，就像他们所做的那样，这是如何运作的？
Well, they only have very brief REM sleep periods that last just for a few seconds, and then they regain their muscle tone.
嗯，他们只有非常短暂的快速眼动睡眠期，只持续几秒钟，然后他们就会恢复肌肉张力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
Couldn't help but ask.
忍不住问道。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
It's genius, isn't it?
这是天才，不是吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The flora and the fauna of life-
生命中的植物群和动物群——
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Oh, look, don't get me started with that
哦，听着，别让我开始说这个
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but especially the fauna enchant me that much.
但尤其是动物群让我着迷。
So I don't want to draw us off course.
所以我不想让我们偏离路线。
But now we know that's why the bats don't fall.
但现在我们知道这就是蝙蝠不会摔倒的原因。
That's why the birds don't fall.
这就是为什么鸟儿不会掉下来。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So when you are then as an infant sleeping 14 to 17 hours, what's happening with those different stages of sleep, non-REM and REM?
那么，当您还是婴儿时，睡眠时间为 14 至 17 小时，那么不同的睡眠阶段（非快速眼动睡眠阶段和快速眼动睡眠阶段）会发生什么情况？
At that point, we can't really define and separate the different stages of non-REM because it's not yet fully formed.
到那时，我们无法真正定义和区分非快速眼动睡眠的不同阶段，因为它尚未完全形成。
But we have what looks like a REM sleep active state and a deep non-REM sleep passive state.
但我们有看起来像是快速眼动睡眠主动状态和深度非快速眼动睡眠被动状态。
Almost 50% of the time that an infant, a newborn is asleep is spent in REM sleep.
婴儿、新生儿睡眠中几乎 50% 的时间都处于快速眼动睡眠中。
Why do I say that with some kind of wonder in my voice?
为什么我这么说的时候语气里带着某种惊奇呢？
Because as adults, we're perhaps down to maybe 20% of our time spent asleep is in REM sleep.
因为作为成年人，我们睡眠时间的 20% 可能是在快速眼动睡眠中。
But 50% of the time when an infant is asleep, they are in REM.
但婴儿睡眠时 50% 的时间都处于快速眼动睡眠状态。
Why would this be the case?
为什么会出现这样的情况呢？
And across all species that have REM and non-REM, the time when we see REM sleep in highest volume amount is always after birth.
在所有具有快速眼动睡眠和非快速眼动睡眠的物种中，我们看到快速眼动睡眠量最高的时间总是在出生后。
There is something special about REM sleep and its function during that early period, and we now start to understand why.
快速眼动睡眠及其在早期的功能有一些特殊之处，我们现在开始理解其中的原因。
When you are first born, you are still going through a huge amount of brain maturation, and the recipe for the day there, unlike when we are teenagers, is exploding the brain with synapses, all of these connections throughout the brain.
当你刚出生时，你的大脑仍在经历大量的成熟过程，与我们十几岁的时候不同，这一天的秘诀是用突触爆炸大脑，所有这些连接遍布大脑。
What we've discovered is that REM sleep acts as an electrical fertilizer to stimulate the growth of these connections within the brain.
我们发现，快速眼动睡眠就像一种电肥料，刺激大脑内这些连接的生长。
It's almost as though you could think about an internet service provider with this huge new neighborhood, and the first call of business is to go in and wire up each one of those homes with these fiber optic cables.
这几乎就像你可以想象一个互联网服务提供商拥有这个巨大的新社区，而第一个业务电话就是走进这些家庭并用这些光纤电缆连接每一个家庭。
That's what REM sleep is doing.
这就是快速眼动睡眠的作用。
And if you start to deprive, and these were studies, gosh, done many years ago by Howard Roffwarg and others, if you deprive animals of REM sleep, you stunt the developmental growth of the brain.
如果你开始剥夺动物的快速眼动睡眠，天哪，这些是霍华德·罗夫瓦格和其他人多年前所做的研究，如果你剥夺动物的快速眼动睡眠，你就会阻碍大脑的发育。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And presumably the whole animal.
大概是整个动物。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah, as a consequence.
是的，作为一个结果。
If you look at its social behavior, even just that, it's profoundly abnormal because you don't have that REM sleep-developed brain.
如果你观察它的社会行为，即使只是这样，它也是非常不正常的，因为你没有快速眼动睡眠发育的大脑。
I mention this not because there is any causal evidence, but we have seen REM sleep impairments in certain developmental disorders, such as autism as well as ADHD.
我提到这一点并不是因为有任何因果证据，而是我们在某些发育障碍（例如自闭症和多动症）中发现了快速眼动睡眠障碍。
I don't think there is any supportive evidence yet to come out with a claim that part of the trajectory underlying those conditions is abnormalities of REM sleep, but it's a very active area of research.
我认为目前还没有任何支持性证据表明这些情况的部分轨迹是快速眼动睡眠异常，但这是一个非常活跃的研究领域。
So it's a fascinating time, though, during infancy, when you get these huge amounts of REM sleep.
所以，在婴儿期，当你获得大量的快速眼动睡眠时，这是一个令人着迷的时期。
Why?
为什么？
Because of what we call synaptogenesis, which is simply the creation of synapses, genesis.
因为我们所说的突触发生，就是突触的产生，起源。
Then as you move from six months Across the next 18 months, something odd happens.
然后，当你从 6 个月过渡到接下来的 18 个月时，一些奇怪的事情发生了。
Total sleep time starts to decrease, REM sleep starts to decrease, but non-REM sleep actually increases even though total sleep time is decreasing.
总睡眠时间开始减少，快速眼动睡眠开始减少，但尽管总睡眠时间减少，非快速眼动睡眠实际上却增加了。
And there's a strange peak in lighter stage non-REM, what we call stage two non-REM, and those sleep spindles that I was describing in the first episode, these bursts of electrical activity.
在较轻的非快速眼动阶段，即我们所说的第二阶段非快速眼动阶段，以及我在第一集中描述的睡眠纺锤波中，有一个奇怪的峰值，即这些电活动的爆发。
We will speak about the role of those sleep spindles in improving motor skill learning, and we've done many, many years of work in this area.
我们将讨论这些睡眠纺锤波在改善运动技能学习中的作用，我们在这一领域已经做了很多很多年的工作。
Why is that relevant to this phase of life?
为什么这与人生的这个阶段相关？
That's right around the time when infants start to coordinate their limbs in a skilled way and begin to walk.
这正是婴儿开始熟练地协调四肢并开始行走的时间。
And we believe that it is part of the process of the development of the motor system enabling walking to begin.
我们相信这是运动系统发育过程的一部分，使行走得以开始。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing.
太棒了。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
So then things will change further.
那么事情将会进一步发生变化。
Sleep time continues to decrease, and by about age five or six, now the cocktail blend of non-REM and REM is down to a stable ratio that will remain throughout the lifespan, which is a 4:1 ratio.
睡眠时间持续减少，到了大约五六岁时，非快速眼动睡眠和快速眼动睡眠的混合比例已降至稳定的比例，并在整个生命周期中保持不变，即 4:1 的比例。
So about 20% of the time that you're asleep will be REM sleep, and the remaining time will be 80% of the time will be non-REM sleep.
因此，大约 20% 的睡眠时间是快速眼动睡眠，其余 80% 的时间是非快速眼动睡眠。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Provided one is getting sufficient total amounts of sleep.
前提是获得足够的总睡眠量。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Correct, and getting it at the right moments in time that we described in the first episode, getting that sort of appropriate chronotype match to the 24-hour clock.
正确，并且在我们在第一集中描述的正确时刻得到它，得到与 24 小时时钟适当的计时类型匹配。
That will certainly alter those things too.
这肯定也会改变这些事情。
So that's how sleep unfolds both at the first level of the lens, monophasic, biphasic, polyphasic, and then double-clicking how the different stages of sleep unfold and what the reasons are behind that.
这就是睡眠在镜片第一层的展开方式，单相、双相、多相，然后双击睡眠的不同阶段如何展开以及背后的原因是什么。
I then said once we're adults, we become monophasic.
然后我说一旦我们成年，我们就会变成单相。
Yes, to a degree, but there is some contention about the way that we sleep in modernity, that we may not be sleeping in the way that we were designed to sleep, which brings us back to biphasic sleep.
是的，在某种程度上，但对于现代人的睡眠方式存在一些争议，我们可能没有按照设计的睡眠方式睡觉，这让我们回到了双相睡眠。
In the first episode, we spoke about this strange afternoon dip in our alertness that happens called the postprandial dip, and it happens somewhere between the 1:00 to 4:00 PM region, and it's measurable, and it seems to be biologically wired into us.
在第一集中，我们谈到了这种奇怪的下午警觉性下降，这种现象被称为餐后下降，它发生在下午 1:00 到 4:00 之间的某个区域，而且是可以测量的，而且它似乎与我们的生物机制有关。
If you look at certain cultures that are not touched by modernity, so we and others have studied hunter-gatherer tribes, they don't quite sleep the way that we do, and they don't sleep the way that we do for at least two reasons.
如果你观察某些未受现代性影响的文化，我们和其他人研究了狩猎采集部落，就会发现他们的睡眠方式与我们不同，而且他们的睡眠方式与我们不同，至少有两个原因。
The first is that they will often have a siesta-like pattern of behavior, where especially in the hot, dry season, they will take a nap in the afternoon.
首先，他们经常会有类似午睡的行为模式，尤其是在炎热干燥的季节，他们会在下午小睡。
In the wet, cooler season, that may not be the case, but they certainly have more of a biphasic pattern where they'll sleep longer at night and then have a short nap, siesta-like.
在潮湿、凉爽的季节，情况可能并非如此，但他们肯定有更多的双相模式，他们会在晚上睡更长的时间，然后小睡一会儿，就像午睡一样。
And then, of course, there are Latin and Mediterranean cultures, and they have this practice of the siesta-like behavior.
当然，还有拉丁文化和地中海文化，他们也有这种午睡行为的做法。
Coming back to the hunter-gatherer tribes, the way that they also do not sleep in a similar manner to that which we do is their timing of sleep.
回到狩猎采集部落，他们的睡眠方式与我们不同，那就是他们的睡眠时间。
They don't go to sleep as the sun goes down.
太阳下山时他们不会睡觉。
They will usually, on average, as a group, they will usually go to sleep about two hours after sundown, and then they will wake up not with the rising of the sun.
平均而言，作为一个群体，他们通常会在日落后大约两个小时入睡，然后他们不会随着太阳的升起而醒来。
They wake up just before that, and you think, how are they predictive of the light?
他们在那之前醒来，你想，他们是如何预测光的？
No. The thing that changes first before the sun truly rises is temperature, and temperature is a very strong predictor that forces them awake.
不。在太阳真正升起之前首先改变的是温度，而温度是迫使他们醒来的一个非常强大的预测因素。
So when you think about how they're sleeping then, consider the term midnight.
因此，当您考虑他们当时的睡眠情况时，请考虑“午夜”这个词。
Most of us never really think about what the term means.
我们大多数人从来没有真正思考过这个词的含义。
Midnight refers to the fact that it is the middle of the night.
午夜指的是现在是半夜。
But for most of us in the modern world, that's the time when we're thinking about sending our last email or posting to social media.
但对于现代世界的大多数人来说，这就是我们考虑发送最后一封电子邮件或在社交媒体上发布内容的时候。
Midnight is no longer midnight for society, but it is for them.
午夜不再是社会的午夜，而是他们的午夜。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So should we be thinking about midnight as the middle of the night in the context of the extreme early person, morning person who presumably likes to go to bed around 8:00 PM, wake up around 4:00 AM?
那么，对于那些喜欢在晚上 8:00 左右上床睡觉、在凌晨 4:00 左右起床的极早起床的人来说，我们是否应该将午夜视为半夜呢？
Most people hear 4:00 AM, and they go, "Oh, goodness-
大多数人听到凌晨 4:00 时都会说：“哦，天哪 -
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that's early." Sort of like the mighty Jocko Willink is famous for posting images of his-
还早呢。”有点像强大的乔科·威林克（Jocko Willink）因发布他的照片而闻名——
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
He is, yeah
他是，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of his digital watch.
他的数字手表。
Usually, I think it's 4:30 AM wake up, and that's when he starts his workout.
通常，我认为是凌晨 4:30 起床，那时他就开始锻炼。
So his Twitter, I guess they call it X now, feed and Instagram is replete with images of his watch, 4:30, and people think, "Goodness, that's early."
所以他的 Twitter，我想他们现在称之为 X，动态和 Instagram 上充斥着他的手表的图片，4:30，人们会想，“天哪，太早了。”
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But he was a guest on this podcast, spoken to him before, but he goes to bed pretty early-
但他是这个播客的嘉宾，之前和他谈过，但他睡得很早——
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
That's right
没错
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
most nights.
大多数夜晚。
So in some sense, midnight for him or for somebody with a similar schedule is truly middle of the night.
因此，从某种意义上说，午夜对于他或具有类似时间表的人来说确实是半夜。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But for the other chronotypes, for people that prefer to go to sleep or who naturally get sleepy around 10 or 11 PM or even later, how should they think about this biphasic, polyphasic business?
但对于其他时间型，对于那些喜欢睡觉或在晚上 10 点或 11 点甚至更晚的时候自然困倦的人来说，他们应该如何看待这种双相、多相的事情呢？
Because-
因为——
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
at some level, we all have to reconcile our sleep schedule with the demands of work and family and so on.
在某种程度上，我们都必须协调我们的睡眠时间表与工作和家庭等的需求。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
That's right.
没错。
So I was very specific when I said the hunter-gatherer tribes, on average, that's the way that they will sleep.
因此，当我说狩猎采集部落平均而言，这就是他们的睡眠方式时，我非常具体。
But like the rest of society, there's a huge distribution, and there will be some proportion of them who are a little bit like Jocko, who will be on the early side of that, on the very early side of that.
但就像社会上的其他人一样，有一个巨大的分布，其中会有一定比例的人有点像乔科，他将处于早期阶段，处于非常早期的阶段。
But then there are other people who are clear night owls, and they may not be going to bed until 10 or 11 and waking up later.
但也有一些人是明显的夜猫子，他们可能要到十点或十一点才睡觉，然后醒来。
So there is a distribution there.
所以那里有一个分布。
You don't have to worry that my statement of midnight, on average, that does seem to be when we are dislocated from all of the trappings of modernity, how a group of representative humans on average will sleep.
你不必担心我对午夜的陈述，平均而言，那似乎是当我们摆脱现代性的所有陷阱时，一群有代表性的人类平均将如何睡觉。
But there is huge, as I said, differences from one individual to the next.
但正如我所说，人与人之间存在着巨大的差异。
By the way, you can ask the question, why do we have these things called chronotypes?
顺便说一句，你可以问一个问题，为什么我们有这些称为“计时类型”的东西？
Why is there such variability in how people have a preference for when they sleep?
为什么人们对睡眠时间的偏好存在如此大的差异？
Wouldn't it just be easier if biology designed us all to be asleep at the same time?
如果生物学设计我们所有人同时睡觉不是更容易吗？
Not so.
并非如此。
We mentioned in the first episode that sleep is truly idiotic in the sense that you're not protecting yourself or the people that you care about.
我们在第一集中提到，睡眠确实是愚蠢的，因为你没有保护自己或你关心的人。
And if everyone slept at the same moment in time, you as a collective and as an individual would be vulnerable for an eight-hour period, seven to nine-hour period.
如果每个人都在同一时间睡觉，那么作为一个集体和个人，你将在八小时、七到九小时内变得脆弱。
But by way of this wonderful injection of variability as to preferences for when people sleep, maybe there are some people who are going to bed at 8:00 PM, and there are other people, and they're waking up at 4:00 AM.
但是，通过这种关于人们睡眠时间偏好的美妙变化，也许有些人会在晚上 8:00 上床睡觉，而另一些人则会在凌晨 4:00 起床。
There are other people who go to bed at midnight and wake up at 8:00 AM.
还有一些人半夜睡觉，早上 8:00 起床。
So then think about that.
那么请考虑一下。
At some point, what you've done is that there will always be someone or a collection of people awake until midnight, and there will always be a collection of people who are awake starting at 4:00 AM.
在某些时候，您所做的就是总会有一个人或一群人一直醒到午夜，而且总会有一群人从凌晨 4:00 开始就醒着。
So as an individual, everyone gets their eight-hour opportunity, but as a collective, as a clan, you've reduced your vulnerability down by 50% because Mother Nature injected the variability by way of genetics of chronotype to distribute that and lessen the burden.
因此，作为个人，每个人都有八小时的机会，但作为一个集体，作为一个部落，你已经将你的脆弱性降低了 50%，因为大自然通过睡眠类型的遗传学注入了变异性，以分配这种变异性并减轻负担。
Does that make any sense?
这有什么意义吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It does, and it reminds me of how the circadian rhythm, which we discussed in episode one, is about 24 hours, not exactly 24 hours.
确实如此，它让我想起我们在第一集中讨论的昼夜节律大约是 24 小时，而不是精确的 24 小时。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The rhythm of the suprachiasmatic nucleus neurons that generate the circadian rhythm, as I recall, is rarely exactly 24 hours.
我记得，产生昼夜节律的视交叉上核神经元的节律很少是正好 24 小时。
It's 24.2 or 24.4, and the idea in mind, the just so story, is that that variation allows for entrainment, matching to the outside light-dark cycle, which changes across the year.
它是 24.2 或 24.4，而我们心中的想法，也就是这个故事，是这种变化允许夹带，与全年变化的外部明暗周期相匹配。
So you don't want it rigidly 24 hours.
所以你不希望它严格24小时。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because if there's any variation in light dark, which of course there is, even at the equator across the year, there's subtle variations, but certainly as you move away from the equator.
因为如果明暗有任何变化，当然是存在的，即使在一年中的赤道上，也会有微妙的变化，但当你远离赤道时，肯定会出现这种变化。
And so these variations in your circadian rhythm clock, SCN, suprachiasmatic nucleus, might be 24.2.
因此，您的昼夜节律时钟、SCN、视交叉上核的这些变化可能是 24.2。
Mine might be 24.6, someone else 24.1, and in that sense allows some malleability to-
我的可能是 24.6，其他人是 24.1，从这个意义上说，允许一定的可塑性-
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
matching the circadian rhythm to outside light dark rhythms.
将昼夜节律与外界的明暗节律相匹配。
Is that a decent parallel for what we're talking about here?
这与我们在这里讨论的内容是一个很好的相似之处吗？
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
It is.
是的。
It's a beautiful demonstration that there is always some, it's almost wiggle room in how biology is programmed, because some degree of sort of noise, almost stochastic noise, can be very beneficial, and it's much more predictive of the way in which the world works, and it's much more adaptive for a species to enact and to embrace that kind of variability.
这是一个很好的证明，在生物学的编程方式中，总会有一些回旋余地，因为某种程度的噪音，几乎是随机的噪音，可能是非常有益的，而且它更能预测世界的运作方式，而且对于一个物种来说，它更能适应并接受这种变化。
And yours was a beautiful example that it's about 24 hours, but it's certainly responsive to changes in light duration across the year.
你的例子是一个很好的例子，它大约是 24 小时，但它肯定会响应全年光照持续时间的变化。
And it has to be because we need to buckle ourselves to the light-dark cycle for optimal survival.
这一定是因为我们需要让自己屈服于光暗循环才能获得最佳生存。
And here is another demonstration of where it's not about the circadian rhythm, but it's about the chronotype distribution, not within an individual across the year, but across individuals at any one moment in time, and that variability, once again, provides a biological benefit.
这是另一个证明，它与昼夜节律无关，而是与时间型分布有关，不是一年中个体内部的分布，而是每个时刻个体之间的分布，而这种变异性再次提供了生物学益处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In the first episode, and again now, you were discussing chronotypes, and one thing that I've been meaning to ask is you said that chronotype is genetically determined, but does that necessarily mean it is directly inherited from mom and/or dad?
在第一集中，现在又讨论了时间型，我一直想问的一件事是，你说时间型是由基因决定的，但这是否一定意味着它是直接从妈妈和/或爸爸那里继承的？
Meaning if your parents are both extreme early morning types, will you grow up to be an extreme early morning type?
这意味着如果你的父母都是极端早起类型，那么你长大后也会成为极端早起类型吗？
You already established that during infancy and development, adolescence, et cetera, that our chronotype is somewhat masked by some of the developmental-
您已经确定，在婴儿期、发育期、青春期等期间，我们的时间型在某种程度上被一些发育性因素所掩盖——
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
necessities.
必需品。
But once we reach young adulthood and our chronotype has been established, can we look to our parents to determine whether or not we are more likely to be a morning person or late shifted?
但是，一旦我们进入了成年早期并且我们的生物钟类型已经确定，我们是否可以依靠父母来确定我们是否更有可能成为早起的人或晚班的人？
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
It's very unlikely to find anyone whose parents were both extreme morning types who is a neutral or an evening type, and vice versa.
很难找到父母都是极端早起类型的人，而同时又是中性或晚间类型的人，反之亦然。
So my guess is that people with, if they know of their biological parents and they know of their rhythms, it's highly likely that you will at some point acquiesce in your lifetime to being very similar to them.
所以我的猜测是，如果人们知道他们的亲生父母并且知道他们的节律，那么你很可能会在你的一生中的某个时刻默许与他们非常相似。
Now, there are certain life conditions and contexts where you can fight that.
现在，在某些生活条件和环境下，你可以与之抗争。
If you're someone who is in punk rock band and you're touring all the time, even though your mom and dad may be morning types and you may be a morning type, you're on the road, you're playing gigs, there's no chance.
如果你是朋克摇滚乐队的成员，并且一直在巡回演出，即使你的父母可能是早起类型，你也可能是早起类型，但你在路上，你在演出，就没有机会。
But at some point, let's say you retire and you give yourself the opportunity to express your natural rhythm, you will go back to that.
但到了某个时候，假设你退休了，你给自己机会表达你的自然节奏，你就会回到那个状态。
So yes, it's highly genetic.
所以是的，它具有高度遗传性。
It's not entirely genetic.
这并不完全是遗传的。
There is some degree of modification that happens on the basis of context, and I've just given you a good example of context, and also your exposure to light.
根据上下文会发生一定程度的修改，我刚刚给了您一个很好的上下文示例，以及您暴露在光线下的情况。
You can be someone who is, let's say, a neutral like me, but if you're constantly invaded by electric light at night, you're drinking too much caffeine, and you're on your laptop and your computer and your phone, and you're always activated by social media, it's very easy for someone like me to drift and become a 1:00 a.m.
你可以是像我这样的中立人，但如果你在晚上不断地受到电灯的侵袭，你喝了太多的咖啡因，你在你的笔记本电脑、电脑和手机上，你总是被社交媒体激活，那么像我这样的人很容易就会随波逐流，成为凌晨 1:00 的人。
to 9:00 a.m.
至上午 9:00
person.
人。
That's not my natural type, but context and the environment have shifted me.
这不是我的自然类型，但背景和环境改变了我。
But for the most part, yes to your question.
但在大多数情况下，你的问题是肯定的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。
AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also contains adaptogens and is designed to meet all of your foundational nutritional needs.
AG1 是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮料，还含有适应原，旨在满足您的所有基本营养需求。
By now, I'm sure you've all heard me say that I've been taking AG1 since 2012, and indeed, that is true.
到现在为止，我相信你们都听我说过，我从 2012 年就开始服用 AG1，确实如此。
Now, of course, I do consume regular whole foods every day.
当然，现在我每天都会定期食用天然食品。
I strive to get those foods mostly from unprocessed or minimally processed sources.
我努力从未加工或最低限度加工的来源获取这些食物。
However, I do find it hard to get enough servings of fruits and vegetables each day.
然而，我确实发现每天很难获得足够的水果和蔬菜。
So with AG1, I ensure that I get enough of the vitamins, minerals, prebiotic fiber, and other things typically found in fruits or vegetables, and of course, I still make sure to eat fruits and vegetables, and in that way, provide a sort of insurance that I'm getting enough of what I need.
因此，通过 AG1，我确保获得足够的维生素、矿物质、益生元纤维以及水果或蔬菜中常见的其他物质，当然，我仍然确保吃水果和蔬菜，这样就提供了一种保证，确保我获得了足够的所需物质。
In addition, the adaptogens and other micronutrients in AG1 really help buffer against stress and ensure that the cells, organs, and tissues of my body are getting the things they need.
此外，AG1 中的适应原和其他微量营养素确实有助于缓冲压力，并确保我身体的细胞、器官和组织得到它们所需的东西。
People often ask me that if they were going to take just one supplement, what that supplement should be, and I always answer AG1.
人们经常问我，如果他们只服用一种补充剂，该补充剂应该是什么，我总是回答 AG1。
If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。
You'll get five free travel packs plus a year's supply of vitamin D3 K2.
您将获得五个免费旅行包以及一年的维生素 D3 K2 供应。
Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman.
再说一遍，这是 Drinkag1.com/huberman。
Okay, so getting back to these different phase opportunities for sleep.
好的，让我们回到这些不同阶段的睡眠机会。
Clearly, I'm getting the language wrong here, but-
显然，我在这里用错了语言，但是-
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
No, it's lovely vernacular
不，这是可爱的普通话
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
monophasic, biphasic, and polyphasic.
单相、双相和多相。
Could you give us a few more examples of different types of biphasic and polyphasic sleep?
您能给我们举几个不同类型的双相和多相睡眠的更多例子吗？
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
So coming back to biphasic sleep, I described one version once we are adults, which is the siesta-like notion, one long bout at night, short bout during the day.
因此，回到双相睡眠，我在成年后描述了一种版本，这是类似午睡的概念，晚上长时睡眠，白天短时睡眠。
And that bout during the day is usually matching that drop in alertness that we described.
白天的那次发作通常与我们描述的警觉性下降相匹配。
It sort of hits that sweet spot right there, and it's quite easy for some people to fall asleep in that period.
它就在那里达到了最佳点，并且对于某些人来说很容易在那个时期入睡。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Somewhere between 1:00 and 4:00 p.m.
下午 1:00 到 4:00 之间的某个时间
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
One to 4:00, yeah.
一到 4:00，是的。
And I know it's a large window, but that just allows us to sort of know, okay, if you're someone like yourself who's a morning type, you would probably start to want to nap a little bit earlier if you were biphasic.
我知道这是一个很大的窗口，但这只是让我们知道，好吧，如果你是像你一样早起的人，如果你是双相性的，你可能会开始想早点小睡。
Someone like me, a neutral, probably an hour and a half, two hours later still.
像我这样的人，一个中立的人，可能一个半小时，两个小时之后。
But there is a different version of biphasic sleep for adults that has been described in the literature, and it's fascinating, but I don't think it's biological.
但是文献中描述了一种不同版本的成人双相睡眠，它很有趣，但我不认为它是生物学的。
It's the notion that some people will have heard called first sleep, second sleep, and now you are splitting your sleep into two phases, but they're split across the night.
有些人可能听说过这个概念，称为第一次睡眠、第二次睡眠，现在你将睡眠分为两个阶段，但它们是在整个晚上分开的。
So the idea is that you fall asleep, and you'll maybe have four-ish hours, and then you wake up, and you then are awake for several hours, and then you go back to sleep for another three or four hours.
所以这个想法是，你睡着了，你可能会有四个小时左右的时间，然后你醒来，然后你醒了几个小时，然后你又睡了三四个小时。
If you look in history, in the record of human history, it's very clear that there were some cultures doing this, particularly if you look at some of the European cultures, Great Britain in particular.
如果你看看历史，在人类历史的记录中，很明显有一些文化在这样做，特别是如果你看看一些欧洲文化，尤其是英国。
There is good evidence that somewhere between about the 15th to 19th century, seems to have ended during the kind of Dickensian era, people were describing this behavior, and they would wake up in the middle of the night after about four hours.
有充分的证据表明，大约在15世纪到19世纪之间，似乎已经结束了那种狄更斯时代，人们正在描述这种行为，他们会在大约四个小时后在半夜醒来。
They would make food, they would play music, they would write, they would make love.
他们会做饭，他们会演奏音乐，他们会写作，他们会做爱。
It was a real thing, and I'm not suggesting that it did not happen.
这是真实的事情，我并不是说它没有发生。
It clearly did, and there's a great book that outlines this.
显然确实如此，并且有一本很棒的书概述了这一点。
But is it the way that we were designed to sleep biphasically versus the siesta-like?
但这是我们生来设计的双相睡眠和午睡式睡眠的方式吗？
And I don't think it is.
我不认为是这样。
There is no good collection of evidence, if you look at the biology of our human rhythms, that argues that there is this magical period of a huge spike in our circadian rhythm that happens right in the middle of the night that should force us awake.
如果你看看我们人类节律的生物学，没有很好的证据表明，我们的昼夜节律有一个神奇的时期，在半夜发生巨大的峰值，这应该迫使我们醒来。
There is one paper that's often cited for this, and in truth, that paper, if you read it, says nothing about first sleep, second sleep, doesn't speak about biphasic sleep at all.
有一篇论文经常被引用，事实上，如果你读过那篇论文，它没有提到第一次睡眠、第二次睡眠，根本没有提到双相睡眠。
And that paper, I think, is unfairly used as a justification of first sleep and second sleep.
我认为那篇论文被不公平地用作第一次睡眠和第二次睡眠的理由。
And the paper, to me, it's a great paper.
对我来说，这篇论文是一篇很棒的论文。
There's no problem with the paper and its hypothesis.
这篇论文及其假设没有问题。
But its use as justification for first sleep, second sleep has three problems.
但将其用作第一次睡眠、第二次睡眠的理由存在三个问题。
The first is the artificial nature of the study.
首先是研究的人为性质。
They weren't designing it to test the hypothesis, but they had individuals in bed for 14 hours straight relative to a standard eight-hour period.
他们设计这个实验的目的并不是为了检验这一假设，而是让受试者连续躺在床上 14 个小时（相对于标准的 8 个小时）。
And sure enough, what they found was that when you force people night after night to be in bed for 14 hours, somewhere after about six or seven hours, they wake up And then you can't get out of bed in the study, so you just lie awake, and then at some point, I don't know if it's through boredom, you drift back off into sleep.
果然，他们发现，当你强迫人们一夜又一夜地躺在床上14个小时，大约六、七个小时后，他们就会醒来，然后你就无法在书房里起床，所以你只能醒着躺着，然后在某个时刻，我不知道是不是因为无聊，你又重新睡着了。
And that was argued as a clear demonstration of this split sleep.
这被认为是这种睡眠分裂的明显表现。
But as I said, they're awake usually for about six and a half, seven hours.
但正如我所说，他们通常醒着大约六个半到七个小时。
Also, there was no magical awakening period.
而且，也没有魔法觉醒期。
It's a probability distribution, and what that means is if you look at the data, it's just more likely that people will wake up after about six or seven hours, and they're more likely that they will go back down into sleep.
这是一个概率分布，这意味着如果你查看数据，人们更有可能在大约六到七小时后醒来，并且更有可能重新进入睡眠状态。
It wasn't as though the whole experiment demonstrated a very clear termination of sleep that everyone had at that moment in time.
整个实验并没有表明每个人在那一刻都有一个非常明显的睡眠终止。
So that's the first issue.
这是第一个问题。
And the second issue, which is first issue, it's kind of an abnormal thing, 14 hours forced in bed.
第二期，也就是第一期，有点不正常，14小时被迫躺在床上。
The second is it wasn't a clear separation.
第二是分离不明确。
It's just simply higher probability.
只是概率比较高而已。
The final issue is that it was a study done in only seven individuals, healthy males, and so I have yet to see it scaled up.
最后一个问题是，这项研究仅针对七名健康男性，因此我还没有看到它扩大规模。
Did it happen, first sleep, second sleep?
有没有发生过，第一次睡觉，第二次睡觉？
Yes, it did.
是的，确实如此。
Is there any strong evidence that's how we naturally were designed and have evolved to sleep?
有没有强有力的证据表明我们是如何自然而然地被设计和进化成睡眠的？
In truth, I don't think so.
事实上，我不这么认为。
At least I don't see good evidence right now supporting that, but remain open to it.
至少我现在没有看到很好的证据支持这一点，但对此保持开放态度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In episode one, we talked a little bit about body position during sleep, and how different degrees of incline or decline might impact some of the features of sleep.
在第一集中，我们讨论了睡眠期间的身体姿势，以及不同程度的倾斜或下降可能如何影响睡眠的某些特征。
And I can't help but ask now, as you describe this biphasic pattern for people that were essentially experimentally restricted to the bed.
我现在忍不住要问，因为你描述了这种双相模式，适用于那些基本上在实验上仅限于床上的人。
Is there something about being horizontal that makes us sleepy?
水平放置是否会导致我们昏昏欲睡？
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
There is, and it's perhaps not for the reasons that you would think, which is, okay, I'm just preprogrammed when I lie down, and my head hits the pillow.
是有的，而且可能不是出于你想象的原因，那就是，好吧，我只是在躺下时被预先编程，我的头撞到枕头上。
It turns out that it seems to be temperature.
原来，似乎是温度。
That when your body is recumbent, lying flat, horizontal, the distribution of how your body is able to move blood around the different regions and decrease your core body temperature, meaning it can push warm blood out of the core of your body to these surface areas.
当你的身体躺着、平躺、水平时，你的身体如何在不同区域移动血液并降低你的核心体温，这意味着它可以将温暖的血液从你身体的核心推到这些表面区域。
And when you push it out to the surface areas, you release that heat.
当你把它推到表面区域时，你就会释放热量。
It's this huge thermal dissipation that happens when we move blood out of the core to the surface.
当我们将血液从核心移至表面时，就会发生这种巨大的热耗散。
You emit that heat, and your core body temperature plummets.
你散发出热量，你的核心体温就会直线下降。
When your core body temperature decreases, you have a higher likelihood of sleepiness.
当你的核心体温降低时，你就更有可能感到困倦。
In fact, it's very difficult for you to fall asleep if your core body temperature does not drop.
事实上，如果你的核心体温不下降，你就很难入睡。
And by lying down, the body's, what we call vasoactive ability to distribute that blood in a way that is permissive for thermal dissipation of core body temperature is superior, and that's the reason why we find it easier to fall asleep lying down than, let's say, semi-recumbent or certainly propped all the way up.
通过躺下，身体的血管活性能力会以一种允许核心体温散热的方式分配血液，这就是为什么我们发现躺着比半躺着或完全支撑起来更容易入睡的原因。
And it's probably the reason, naturally, we evolved just to lie down on the floor.
这可能就是我们自然进化成躺在地板上的原因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very interesting.
非常有趣。
Maybe now's a good time to talk about biphasic sleep in the context of a bout of sleep at night and the afternoon nap.
也许现在是讨论夜间睡眠和午睡的双相睡眠的好时机。
You've mentioned this postprandial dip that most people experience between 1:00 and 4:00 PM, that many people try and combat with caffeine.
您提到过大多数人在下午 1:00 到 4:00 之间都会经历这种餐后情绪低落，许多人尝试用咖啡因来对抗这种情况。
We will also talk about caffeine this episode.
本集我们还将讨论咖啡因。
Such an interesting substance.
如此有趣的物质。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think the most commonly used drug, because it is a drug after all, worldwide.
而且我认为最常用的药物，因为它毕竟是一种药物，全世界范围内。
I think more than 90% of adults worldwide consume caffeine on a daily basis.
我认为全世界 90% 以上的成年人每天都会摄入咖啡因。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
That's correct.
这是正确的。
And I believe it is after oil, it may be perhaps the second or at least the third most traded commodity on this planet.
我相信它可能是继石油之后，这个星球上第二或至少第三大贸易商品。
And it is what we call a psychoactive stimulant.
这就是我们所说的精神兴奋剂。
It is a stimulant.
它是一种兴奋剂。
And it's probably one of the only stimulants that we will readily give to our children and not be too concerned about it.
它可能是我们愿意给孩子的唯一兴奋剂之一，而不必太担心。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We'll get to caffeine in depth a little bit later in this episode, but I can't help but just mention that someone, I think it was Michael Pollan, said that caffeine is one of the few drugs that almost everybody takes just to, quote-unquote, "feel normal."
我们将在本集中稍后深入讨论咖啡因，但我忍不住要提一下，有人，我认为是迈克尔·波伦，说咖啡因是几乎每个人服用的少数药物之一，引用不引用，“感觉正常”。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Exactly.
确切地。
I think sometimes sleep deprivation is simply just the absence of caffeine.
我认为有时睡眠不足只是因为缺乏咖啡因。
And so it's a very interesting chemical, which I have, in truth, changed my mind on, and I'm happy to speak about why I've changed my mind, but also some guardrails, too.
所以这是一种非常有趣的化学物质，事实上，我已经改变了主意，我很高兴谈论为什么我改变了主意，但也有一些护栏。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
We'll go there.
我们会去那里。
Meanwhile, I'll take a sip of my triple espresso here as we discuss- ...
与此同时，当我们讨论时，我会在这里喝一口三重浓缩咖啡——......
as we discuss naps.
当我们讨论小睡时。
Are naps good for us?
午睡对我们有好处吗？
Should we nap?
我们应该小睡一下吗？
What if we don't like naps?
如果我们不喜欢午睡怎么办？
Why do we wake up from naps groggy sometimes, and other times we feel refreshed?
为什么我们有时会从午睡中醒来，昏昏沉沉，有时却感到神清气爽？
Tell us about napping.
告诉我们关于午睡的事情。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Naps are both good and bad, depending on the situation.
午睡有好有坏，视具体情况而定。
Naps can be a double-edged sword, in other words.
换句话说，小睡是一把双刃剑。
We and others have done lots of studies on naps, and the benefits are fascinating and stunning.
我们和其他人对小睡进行了大量研究，其好处令人着迷且令人惊叹。
I'll tell you about one study we did.
我会告诉你我们所做的一项研究。
We had participants assigned to one of two groups, and at midday, they all learned a whole list of new facts, so it was a study about learning and memory.
我们将参与者分配到两组中的一组，在中午，他们都学到了一整套新事实，所以这是一项关于学习和记忆的研究。
And then one group took a 90-minute sleep opportunity, sort of focused right around that drop in alertness.
然后一组人获得了 90 分钟的睡眠机会，注意力集中在警觉性下降的情况上。
The other just remained awake, lying on a bed, and they just watched a nature documentary.
另一个则保持清醒，躺在床上，正在观看一部自然纪录片。
And then Five hours later, we had them do another learning session.
五小时后，我们让他们进行另一次学习课程。
And so they've woken up after the 90-minute nap.
所以他们在 90 分钟的小睡后醒来了。
They've got through that sort of initial lull that we'll discuss what that is after you wake up.
他们已经度过了最初的平静期，我们将在你醒来后讨论那是什么。
Everyone's now back to operating temperature.
现在每个人都回到了工作温度。
So in other words, I've had you try to cram in a whole list of facts at midday, and then a whole list of new facts again at 5:00 PM.
换句话说，我让你在中午尝试塞入一整套事实，然后在下午 5:00 再次塞入一整套新事实。
And I can ask, what is the learning capacity of your brain at midday and at 5:00 PM, and is there any difference in your learning ability when you have had a nap in between versus not?
我可以问一下，你的大脑在中午和下午 5:00 的学习能力是多少？在你午睡和不午睡的情况下，你的学习能力有什么区别吗？
And sure enough, what happened in the group that did not nap, their learning capacity gradually declined across the day.
果然，不午睡的那组人的学习能力在一整天中逐渐下降。
The nap group, they were able to sustain their learning, and in fact, if anything, improve it.
午睡组的人能够维持学习，事实上，如果有的话，还能提高学习水平。
And the difference between those two groups at 5:00 PM was about 20%.
下午 5:00 时，这两组之间的差异约为 20%。
So that's certainly non-trivial in terms of if you were to say, "Here's a new compound that can boost your learning capacity by 20%, would you take it?" I suspect it would probably make some money.
因此，如果您说“这是一种可以将您的学习能力提高 20% 的新化合物，您会接受吗？”，这绝对是不平凡的。我怀疑它可能会赚一些钱。
So that's a demonstration of learning and memory.
这就是学习和记忆的表现。
We did another study very much like that in terms of its design, but we looked at your emotional brain, and we were showing people different types of emotional expressions and having them rate them.
我们做了另一项在设计上非常相似的研究，但我们观察了你的情绪大脑，我们向人们展示了不同类型的情绪表达并让他们对它们进行评分。
And we did that firstly before a nap and then after a nap versus that same time in sort of midday versus 5:00 PM, and another group did not nap.
我们首先在午睡前和午睡后进行此操作，然后在中午和下午 5:00 的同一时间进行此操作，而另一组则没有午睡。
And sure enough, the group that did not nap, by about 5:00 PM, they were starting to rate fearful faces and angry faces as much more fearful and much more angry.
果然，到下午 5:00 左右，没有小睡的那组人开始认为恐惧的面孔和愤怒的面孔更加恐惧和愤怒。
But if you looked at the group that napped, it was different.
但如果你看看那群打瞌睡的人，情况就不一样了。
They actually lessened the response to fear, and they blunted the normal increase in anger sensitivity across the day, and the nap seemed to boost how positively you rated happy faces.
它们实际上减轻了对恐惧的反应，并减弱了一天中愤怒敏感性的正常增加，而小睡似乎提高了你对快乐面孔的积极评价。
So a nap there had the ability to reset the magnetic north of your emotional compass, and there was a beneficial, almost added rose tint to your worldview glasses after you'd napped.
因此，小睡可以重置你情绪指南针的磁北，小睡后，你的世界观眼镜会变得有益，几乎增添了玫瑰色。
What was also interesting in those two studies, two different types of sleep were transacting those benefits.
这两项研究中有趣的一点是，两种不同类型的睡眠都具有这些益处。
In the nap group that was doing the learning, the learning benefit that they got wasn't just about them napping and sleeping.
在进行学习的小睡组中，他们获得的学习益处不仅仅是小睡和睡觉。
It was about them having these sleep spindles.
这是关于他们拥有这些睡眠纺锤波。
The more of those sleep spindles that you had, the greater the restoration of your learning capacity when you wake up.
您拥有的睡眠纺锤波越多，您醒来时学习能力的恢复就越大。
For the emotional recalibration that I described in the nap, that had nothing to do with sleep spindles or even non-REM sleep.
对于我在小睡中描述的情绪重新校准，这与睡眠纺锤波甚至非快速眼动睡眠无关。
It required REM sleep to produce that benefit.
它需要快速眼动睡眠才能产生这种好处。
So there are certainly many benefits, and we've looked downstairs in the body, blood pressure, cardiovascular measures, immune health.
所以肯定有很多好处，我们已经在身体、血压、心血管措施、免疫健康等方面进行了研究。
They all seem to benefit.
他们似乎都受益了。
So at that point, everyone may be thinking, "Of course, this sounds good." Not to mention the basics, which is your attention, your concentration, your focus, and your energy all improve by way of naps.
所以到那时，每个人可能都会想，“当然，这听起来不错。”更不用说基础知识了，你的注意力、集中力、集中力和精力都可以通过小睡来提高。
Even your decision-making.
甚至你的决策。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You said decision-making?
你说决策？
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Even your decision-making is improved.
甚至你的决策能力也会得到改善。
So your capacity to make the correct decisional outcomes based on this weight of evidence that you're facing, that's also improved.
因此，您根据所面临的大量证据做出正确决策结果的能力也得到了提高。
So almost all areas of cognition that we've looked at and many areas of your emotional and mood health we've looked at seem to benefit by way of a nap.
因此，我们研究过的几乎所有认知领域以及我们研究过的情绪和情绪健康的许多领域似乎都可以通过小睡受益。
At that point, you're thinking, so then what's the problem?
这时候你就会想，那么问题出在哪里呢？
The problem is that when you nap, you release some of that sleep pressure that's been building up.
问题是，当你小睡时，你会释放一些已经积累起来的睡眠压力。
So in the first episode, we spoke about a chemical called adenosine, and the longer that you're awake, the more adenosine that builds up.
所以在第一集中，我们谈到了一种叫做腺苷的化学物质，你清醒的时间越长，积累的腺苷就越多。
The more adenosine that builds up, the sleepier you will feel.
腺苷积累得越多，您就会感到越困。
And after about 16 hours of being awake, you should have lots of healthy sleepiness of adenosine in your brain to put you asleep and keep you asleep.
清醒约 16 小时后，您的大脑中应该有大量健康的睡意腺苷，可以让您入睡并让您保持睡眠状态。
And when we sleep, we are able to clear that adenosine from the brain, so we wake up after seven to nine hours, and if it's been good quality sleep, we're refreshed because we've cleansed the brain in part of that adenosine.
当我们睡觉时，我们能够清除大脑中的腺苷，因此我们会在七到九小时后醒来，如果睡眠质量良好，我们会感到神清气爽，因为我们已经清除了大脑中的部分腺苷。
When you take a nap, like a pressure valve on a steam cooker, you just release some of that healthy sleepiness that you've been building up.
当你小睡时，就像蒸汽锅上的压力阀一样，你只是释放了一些你一直在积累的健康睡意。
So the dark side of napping is if you are struggling with sleep and you suffer from insomnia, the advice is do not nap during the day because you're setting yourself up for an even higher probability of failure at night.
因此，小睡的负面影响是，如果您难以入睡并且患有失眠症，建议您不要在白天小睡，因为您晚上失败的可能性会更高。
Why?
为什么？
Because when you nap, you release some of that good sleepiness that we need to build up for you as someone who is struggling with sleep to give you the greatest chance of a weight of sleepiness on your shoulders.
因为当你小睡时，你会释放出一些良好的睡意，而我们需要为你这个睡眠困难的人积累这些睡意，以便让你有最大的机会承受睡意的重担。
So if you are not struggling with sleep and you can nap regularly, I would say naps are just fine, and we can unpack what is an optimal nap and the protocol for what napping should be.
因此，如果您没有睡眠困难并且可以定期小睡，我认为小睡就可以了，我们可以了解什么是最佳小睡以及小睡应该是什么样的方案。
I would say that's great.
我想说那太好了。
The only caveat is make sure that you're not napping too late into the day, and this is one of the components of the protocol of how to nap.
唯一需要注意的是，确保您没有睡得太晚，这是如何小睡的协议的组成部分之一。
Because napping late in the day is too close to sleep, and you can think of it almost like snacking before your main meal.
因为一天中较晚的小睡离睡眠太近了，你可以把它想象成在主餐前吃零食。
A nap late in the day just takes the appetite edge off your sleepiness so that when it comes time for sleep, you're not as hungry anymore.
一天中晚些时候的小睡只会减少你的困倦中的食欲，这样当到了睡觉的时候，你就不会再那么饿了。
So just keep that in mind.
所以请记住这一点。
But we can unpack perhaps the optimal way to nap if you are going to nap and exactly the dos and the don'ts of that if that sounds of somewhat interest.
但是，如果您要小睡的话，我们也许可以解开最佳的小睡方式，以及具体的注意事项（如果这听起来有点有趣的话）。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
That Is of immense interest to me and I know many other people.
我对此非常感兴趣，而且我认识很多其他人。
I'm a huge believer in naps.
我非常相信小睡。
I've always enjoyed short naps of about 10 to 30 minutes, unless I'm somehow sleep deprived, in which case I will sleep for an hour or even a little bit more.
我总是喜欢小睡约 10 到 30 分钟，除非我睡眠不足，在这种情况下我会睡一个小时甚至更长一点。
But I make sure I set an alarm, really based on advice that you gave me, which was to first of all decide whether or not a nap is beneficial for me or for whoever is considering that.
但我确保我设置了一个闹钟，实际上是根据你给我的建议，首先决定小睡是否对我或任何考虑小睡的人有益。
But then to make sure that however long that nap is, zero to 90 minutes, that it not be longer than 90 minutes, because the real goal is to not disrupt nighttime sleep.
但随后要确保午睡的时间有多长，0 到 90 分钟，并且不超过 90 分钟，因为真正的目标是不扰乱夜间睡眠。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is essentially just a more long-winded way of saying what you just said.
这本质上只是用一种更冗长的方式表达你刚才所说的话。
So how does one determine the optimal duration of nap?
那么如何确定最佳的午睡时间呢？
And in particular, to avoid the problem of disrupting nighttime sleep by napping, but also this rather common phenomenon of waking up and feeling kind of groggy or even-
特别是，为了避免小睡扰乱夜间睡眠的问题，以及这种相当常见的醒来后感觉昏昏沉沉甚至-
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
kind of grumpy.
有点脾气暴躁。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The post-nap face.
午睡后的脸。
Or we should call it the post-nap expression, right?
或者我们应该称之为午睡后表情，对吧？
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
We need to trademark that.
我们需要对其进行商标注册。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
PNE.
PN。
Right, the PNE.
对了，PNE。
What's your PNE?
你的 PNE 是什么？
For morning, too, some people wake up and they're like, "Ugh," that face.
早上也一样，有些人醒来时会看到那张脸，“呃”。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then there's the like, "Good morning." And I think people that wake up with the good morning are particularly delightful, unless you're of the post-nap expression that is kind of the crumpled face, and then you don't want to be around those people, right?
然后就是“早上好”之类的话。我认为那些早上醒来的人特别令人愉快，除非你是午睡后的表情，比如皱巴巴的脸，然后你不想和那些人在一起，对吧？
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
No, absolutely.
不，绝对是。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
This probably relates-
这大概与——
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
The PNE
个人网络教育
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to spirit animals and things like that.
给动物和类似的东西注入灵性。
Some people wake up like a cheerful chipmunk and other people seem to wake up like my bulldog, Costello, where it's jowls still in contact with the floor.
有些人醒来时像一只快乐的花栗鼠，而另一些人则像我的斗牛犬科斯特洛一样醒来，它的下巴仍然与地板接触。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So PNE, I'm trying to hold it together and not absolutely just fall apart.
因此，PNE，我正在努力将其保持在一起，而不是完全崩溃。
It's brilliant.
太棒了。
Please trademark it.
请为其注册商标。
So firstly to your question, how to optimally nap.
首先回答你的问题，如何最佳地小睡。
The word optimal is interesting because when people say, "How long should I nap?
“最佳”这个词很有趣，因为当人们说“我应该小睡多长时间？
What's the optimal nap duration?" The question I have back to them is, what are you trying to optimize?
最佳的午睡时间是多长？”我问他们的问题是，你们想优化什么？
Because once I understand what you're trying to optimize, I can give you a better prescription, non-medical I'm talking about here, a better sort of protocol piece of advice for how to nap.
因为一旦我了解了你想要优化的内容，我就可以给你一个更好的处方，我在这里谈论的是非医疗的，一个更好的关于如何小睡的协议建议。
I mentioned the study about emotional faces, in part for a specific reason, because I told you there the benefit came by way not of non-REM sleep, but REM sleep.
我提到了关于情绪面孔的研究，部分原因是因为我告诉过你，好处不是来自非快速眼动睡眠，而是快速眼动睡眠。
And in our first episode, we said that when you go through these on average 90-minute cycles, you get most of your non-REM sleep first, and then you'll have this bout of REM sleep at the end.
在我们的第一集中，我们说过，当您经历这些平均 90 分钟的周期时，您首先会获得大部分非快速眼动睡眠，然后您将在最后获得这一轮快速眼动睡眠。
And it always seems to go that way when you are a healthy, normal person.
当你是一个健康、正常的人时，情况似乎总是如此。
You go into non-REM sleep, and then you go into REM sleep.
您进入非快速眼动睡眠，然后进入快速眼动睡眠。
It's very rare that you ever go directly into REM sleep.
直接进入快速眼动睡眠的情况非常罕见。
There are only two reasons when that seems to happen.
出现这种情况的原因只有两个。
The first is a clinical condition called narcolepsy, where you can have sleep onset REM sleep, and it's very rare.
第一种是称为发作性睡病的临床病症，您可以在入睡时进行快速眼动睡眠，但这种情况非常罕见。
The second is if you are horrifically deprived of REM sleep night after night after night, and I let you sleep then, at that point, the pressure for REM sleep has been built to the point of being almost just insatiable and your brain goes straight into REM sleep.
第二种情况是，如果你一夜又一夜地被严重剥夺了快速眼动睡眠，而我让你睡觉，那么，在这一点上，快速眼动睡眠的压力已经达到了几乎无法满足的程度，你的大脑会直接进入快速眼动睡眠。
But with those two things aside, you go into non-REM sleep first.
但抛开这两件事不谈，你首先会进入非快速眼动睡眠。
So I brought up the emotional study of resetting your sort of mood compass because to get that REM sleep, you had to nap for a longer period of time because you had to get through the non-REM sleep first before you get the REM sleep.
所以我提出了重置你的情绪罗盘的情感研究，因为为了获得快速眼动睡眠，你必须小睡更长的时间，因为你必须先经历非快速眼动睡眠，然后才能进入快速眼动睡眠。
But let's come back to then assuming optimal is for most people when they speak about naps, I just want the quick reboot.
但让我们回到假设大多数人在谈论小睡时的最佳状态，我只想快速重新启动。
I want my alertness and concentration, which are failing because I'm staring at the screen, or I just can't concentrate on the work that I'm doing.
我想要我的警觉性和注意力，但由于我盯着屏幕，或者我无法专注于我正在做的工作，所以这些都失败了。
I want my alertness and my concentration to be improved.
我希望提高我的警觉性和注意力。
I want that sort of slight boost in brain energy where I know I can sustain myself for now a longer period of time, and I've got the motivation, which is really, in some ways, how I like to think about energy as well.
我想要大脑能量得到轻微的提升，我知道我现在可以维持自己更长的时间，而且我有动力，在某些方面，这也是我对能量的看法。
I've got the motivation, the drive to keep going, which is just starting to fail me.
我有动力，有继续前进的动力，但这只是开始让我失望。
To get those basic things, which is what most people nap for, aim for a 20-minute nap.
为了得到这些基本的东西，这是大多数人小睡的目的，目标是小睡 20 分钟。
Why 20 minutes?
为什么是20分钟？
If I thin slice the nap duration, and those studies have been done, where we look at essentially what's called a dose-response curve.
如果我将午睡时间切成薄片，并且这些研究已经完成，我们基本上会观察所谓的剂量反应曲线。
I give you 5 minutes of a nap, 10 minutes of a nap, 15 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes, 45 minutes, 90 minutes.
我给你小睡5分钟，小睡10分钟，15分钟，20分钟，30分钟，45分钟，90分钟。
After 5 or 10 minutes, you don't really get very much.
5 或 10 分钟后，你并没有真正得到太多。
You will wake up and you'll have some degree of improved alertness, and your basic reaction time may be a little bit quicker, but that fades very quickly, and you don't sustain that benefit.
你会醒来，你的警觉性会得到一定程度的提高，你的基本反应时间可能会更快一点，但这种情况很快就会消失，而且你不会维持这种好处。
Once you get past about 15 to 17 minutes, now things start to look different.
一旦过了大约 15 到 17 分钟，事情就开始看起来不同了。
You get these nice benefits for concentration and alertness and motivation, and those things sustain.
你会得到这些对集中注意力、警觉性和积极性的好处，并且这些东西能够持续下去。
So once you wake up out of that, probably really, I would say 20-minute nap.
因此，一旦你从这种状态中醒来，我可能真的会说小睡 20 分钟。
At that point, you've got some good wind in your concentration and energy sails for the brain, and that will sustain you throughout the rest of the afternoon and into the evening.
那时，你的注意力就会得到一些良好的提升，能量会驶向大脑，这将支撑你度过整个下午剩下的时间直到晚上。
The benefit of the 20-minute nap is that you don't get the PNE .
小睡 20 分钟的好处是你不会打瞌睡。
Trademark Andrew Huberman.
商标安德鲁·胡伯曼。
You don't get that almost sleep hangover.
你不会有那种近乎睡眠的宿醉。
So some people will say, "It's strange, I nap.
所以有些人会说，“这很奇怪，我打瞌睡。
Maybe I'll nap 45 minutes, 50 minutes, and I wake up, and to be honest, Matt, I almost feel worse after the nap than I did before, and I don't understand it." It's something called sleep inertia, and An extreme version of this is in the first two hours of your night of sleep, you get a phone call or an alarm goes off and you wake up and you are just kind of lost in the ocean.
也许我会小睡 45 分钟、50 分钟，然后我醒来，说实话，马特，小睡后我感觉比以前更糟糕，我不明白。”这就是所谓的睡眠惯性，这种情况的一个极端版本是在你晚上睡觉的前两个小时，你接到一个电话或闹钟响起，然后你醒来，你就像迷失在海洋中一样。
You're looking around at your surroundings.
你正在环顾四周。
You're just in this groggy state.
你只是处于这种昏昏沉沉的状态。
You're half awake, half asleep, and you can respond and you can do things, but boy, does it feel miserable.
你半醒半睡，你可以做出反应，你可以做事，但是男孩，这感觉很痛苦吗？
And it's almost as though you're going from the ground floor right up to the penthouse suite, but you get stuck somewhere in between floor 13, and it's this rough state.
就好像您从一楼一直到顶层套房，但您却被困在 13 楼之间的某个地方，这就是这种粗糙的状态。
If you go out into sleep, light stage one non-REM, then stage two non-REM, and just before you get into the very deepest stages of non-REM, three and four, that starts to happen around 30 to 40 minutes for most people.
如果你进入睡眠状态，先进入浅度第一阶段非快速眼动睡眠，然后进入第二阶段非快速眼动睡眠，然后再进入最深的非快速眼动睡眠阶段（第三阶段和第四阶段），对于大多数人来说，这种情况会在 30 到 40 分钟左右开始发生。
But by cutting your nap off at 20 minutes, you still get these nice benefits from a good chunk of healthy non-REM sleep, but you're not going so far into the cycle, so deep into your non-REM, that when you wake up after 20 minutes, you're not in that what we call sleep inertia phase, that sleep grogginess, that sleep hangover phase.
但是，通过在 20 分钟停止小睡，你仍然可以从大量健康的非快速眼动睡眠中获得这些好处，但你不会进入循环太深，进入非快速眼动睡眠，以至于当你在 20 分钟后醒来时，你不会处于我们所说的睡眠惯性阶段、睡眠昏昏欲睡阶段、睡眠宿醉阶段。
So it's a nice benefit that you get all of these improvements in your brain, but you wake up and very quickly you're back up to operating temperature, and you don't suffer that inertia.
因此，您的大脑获得所有这些改进是一个很好的好处，但您醒来后很快就会恢复到工作温度，并且不会遭受这种惯性。
Now that's not to say that when you sleep or you nap longer, you don't start to get more benefits.
这并不是说，当您睡觉或小睡时间更长时，您不会开始获得更多好处。
You do, and those benefits are both greater in their magnitude and sustain for a longer period of time.
你确实这么做了，而且这些好处的幅度更大，而且持续时间更长。
They do.
他们确实这么做了。
It's just that you have to understand the trade-off that you will suffer, which is I will get more bang for my buck and I will get more benefits, but I will, in the first sort of hour or so, have to understand that at that point, I may even be functioning worse than that which I did before I even started napping.
只是你必须明白你将遭受的权衡，即我会得到更多的钱，我会得到更多的好处，但在最初的一个小时左右，我必须明白，在那一点上，我的功能甚至可能比我开始小睡之前更糟糕。
But if you're patient and you go through it, the rewards on the other side are significantly better still.
但如果你有耐心并坚持下去，另一边的回报会明显更好。
So that's the first piece of advice.
这是第一个建议。
And when it comes to how to nap, I would say the dose and the timing make the poison, and poison is hyperbole in here.
当谈到如何小睡时，我会说剂量和时间决定了毒药，毒药在这里是夸张的。
It's simply just the poison being how much sleep inertia you're going to suffer.
这只是你将遭受多少睡眠惯性的毒药。
So aim for about 20 minutes.
所以目标是20分钟左右。
That's the dose.
这就是剂量。
The timing comes back to that which we described before.
时间又回到了我们之前描述的时间。
Do not nap too late into the day.
不要小睡太晚。
So what's the rule of thumb here for a protocol?
那么协议的经验法则是什么？
On average, for the average adult, I would say don't nap after about 3:00 PM.
平均而言，对于一般成年人来说，我建议不要在下午 3:00 左右小睡。
20-minute naps sometime between 3:00 PM, and if you're struggling with sleep, don't do this at all.
下午 3:00 之间小睡 20 分钟，如果您睡眠困难，请不要这样做。
If you're not, and you're able to get to sleep fine, this seems to be a good ingredient for the basic return on your investment.
如果你没有，而且你能够睡个好觉，这似乎是你获得基本投资回报的一个很好的因素。
Again, if you tell me what's the optimal nap duration, we need to have a conversation to understand what is it that you're going after here?
再说一次，如果你告诉我最佳的午睡时间是多长，我们需要进行一次对话以了解你在这里追求的是什么？
What are the benefits?
有什么好处？
And then I can sort of create a finger buffet kaleidoscope match to what you need, and we can think about the nap duration as a consequence.
然后我可以根据您的需要创建一个手指自助万花筒，然后我们就可以考虑午睡的持续时间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
That's very informative.
这是非常有用的。
I have a colleague at Stanford who's a Howard Hughes Investigator, which for those that don't know, is a rather elite club of academic researcher.
我在斯坦福大学有一位同事，他是霍华德休斯研究员，对于那些不知道的人来说，这是一个相当精英的学术研究人员俱乐部。
They have to essentially try out for it.
他们基本上必须尝试一下。
Every five years, they go up for renewal.
每五年，它们就会更新一次。
It's a lot of money, which gives them a greater capacity to take on greater risk work, higher risk work.
这是很多钱，这使他们有更大的能力承担更大风险的工作。
And he's also a member of the National Academy, and he was one of these people that graduated high school at 15 years of age, one of these phenoms.
他也是国家学院的成员，他是这些 15 岁高中毕业的人之一，这些杰出人物之一。
And he is so religious about his napping such that when he travels to give seminars at other schools, he insists that they schedule a nap time for him after lunch.
他非常注重午睡，以至于当他前往其他学校举办研讨会时，他坚持要求他们在午餐后为他安排午睡时间。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
I love it.
我喜欢它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And in his office between 12:30 and 1:00 PM, he's napping.
中午 12:30 到 1:00 期间，他在办公室小睡。
Everyone knows this.
每个人都知道这一点。
And I mention this because I think that oftentimes people think of the nappers as the lazy ones, but his output is near superhuman, and he attributes much of that output to the nap.
我提到这一点是因为我认为人们常常认为小睡者是懒惰的人，但他的产出接近超人，他将大部分产出归因于小睡。
Not just the post-nap work that he's able to perform, but his ability to just kind of manage so many ideas.
不仅仅是他能够完成午睡后的工作，还有他管理如此多想法的能力。
He has an enormous laboratory.
他有一个巨大的实验室。
And that's just one example.
这只是一个例子。
I think there are examples from sport of sprinters taking naps on the side of the-
我认为短跑运动员在运动中有一些在旁边小睡的例子——
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the track field.
田径场。
So it seems that a capacity to nap is also something worth considering because I think many people listening to this are thinking, "Well, I can't nap.
因此，小睡的能力似乎也是值得考虑的事情，因为我认为很多人听到这个都会想，“好吧，我不能小睡。
Should I nap?"
我该打瞌睡吗？”
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And can one teach themselves to nap?
一个人可以自学午睡吗？
So that's the question, if one would want to explore napping.
这就是问题，是否有人想探索小睡。
And is that something that one should even consider doing?
这是人们应该考虑做的事情吗？
If you don't have a propensity to nap, should you avoid it?
如果你没有午睡的习惯，你应该避免午睡吗？
If you want to try naps, how could one teach oneself to nap?
如果你想尝试小睡，如何自学小睡呢？
You just mentioned earlier lying down relates to body temperature, body temperature relates to sleepiness.
你刚才提到躺着和体温有关，体温和睡意有关。
And then as a third question, I promise I'll repeat these if we need to.
作为第三个问题，我保证如果需要的话我会重复这些内容。
As a third question, I'd like to have a little bit of a discussion about some of the pseudo nap states that I certainly am intrigued by.
作为第三个问题，我想就一些我确实感兴趣的伪小睡状态进行一些讨论。
For instance, just lying down and I'm doing a progressive bodily relaxation, things like Yoga Nidra, Non-Sleep Deep Rest, which is an acronym I coined simply to make it clear what I was talking about, but it's very similar to Yoga Nidra, things of that sort.
例如，只是躺下来，我正在做渐进的身体放松，比如瑜伽休息术、非睡眠深度休息，这是我创造的一个缩写词，只是为了弄清楚我在说什么，但它与瑜伽休息术非常相似，诸如此类。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In other words, put simply, should everyone think about having an early to mid-afternoon protocol to reset their cognition and their body?
换句话说，简单地说，每个人都应该考虑制定一个早到下午的方案来重置他们的认知和身体吗？
We call it a nap, but does it have to be a nap?
我们称之为小睡，但它一定是小睡吗？
And if we're not good nappers, should we try?
如果我们不善于午睡，我们应该尝试吗？
And if so, how should we go about it?
如果是这样，我们应该怎样做呢？
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah, so to your three questions, firstly, if you're not a natural napper, should you start doing it?
是的，所以对于你的三个问题，首先，如果你不是一个天生的小睡者，你应该开始这样做吗？
If you want to start doing it, how should you do it?
如果你想开始做的话，应该怎么做呢？
And then the third is, is this some kind of Substitute for a like kind, which would be these, I love the phraseology that you used, these liminal states.
第三个是，这是某种类似类型的替代品吗？就是这些，我喜欢你使用的措辞，这些阈值状态。
Do they mimic that?
他们会模仿吗？
Are they different to that?
他们与此不同吗？
How should we think about those?
我们应该如何思考这些？
The first thing I would say to point number one, if you are not a natural napper, don't necessarily force yourself to be.
我要说的第一件事是，如果你不是一个天生的小睡者，那就不必强迫自己成为这样的人。
As long as you're getting the sleep that you feel you need at night, and you feel refreshed and restored during the day, and you don't have that sort of postprandial drop to the point of thinking, "I almost need to nap during the day." There is no pressure based on anything I've been telling you for you to start napping, nor should there be any reason that you do start napping.
只要你晚上得到了你认为需要的睡眠，白天你感到神清气爽、精力充沛，而且你不会有那种餐后下降到想“我白天几乎需要小睡”的地步。我告诉你的任何事情都没有让你开始小睡的压力，也不应该有任何理由让你开始小睡。
But let's say that you want to try.
但假设您想尝试一下。
What would be the right protocol to improve and increase the likelihood?
改善和增加可能性的正确方案是什么？
The best way you can do this is to mimic nighttime as best you can.
做到这一点的最好方法就是尽可能模仿夜间。
So wherever you are, if you can, shut off the lights, make sure that you can block out, curtains, blinds.
因此，无论你身在何处，如果可以的话，请关掉灯，确保可以遮挡住窗帘、百叶窗。
If you can't do that fully, and many people won't be able to, develop an eye mask procedure.
如果你不能完全做到这一点，而且很多人也做不到，那就开发一个眼罩程序。
So put an eye mask on.
所以戴上眼罩。
Make sure you block out noise.
确保隔绝噪音。
Earplugs.
耳塞。
You can use a sound machine if you want, and we can speak about sound machines and whether or not they're good or bad on sleep.
如果您愿意，您可以使用声音机器，我们可以讨论声音机器以及它们对睡眠的好处还是坏处。
And then you can lie down.
然后你就可以躺下了。
Make sure that you try to take your shoes off and get under some kind of a blanket, because we're so contextually cued by having something wrapped around us called a blanket or a duvet, that to do it without that, if you are not a natural napper, can help you.
确保你尝试脱掉鞋子，盖上某种毯子，因为我们很容易被一些叫做毯子或羽绒被的东西包裹在我们身上，如果你不是一个天生的小睡者，那么不穿这些东西就能帮助你。
Again, some people will say, "I can just kick my feet up on my desk, sit back in my reclining chair in the office, and I can fall asleep." That's great.
再次，有些人会说：“我可以把脚放在桌子上，坐在办公室的躺椅上，然后就可以睡着了。”那太棒了。
But if you're not a natural person, I'm just trying to tell you things that increase the probability of that.
但如果你不是一个自然人，我只是想告诉你一些增加这种可能性的事情。
And then set the alarm.
然后设置闹钟。
I like your idea of making sure that if you do fall asleep, you don't accidentally go too long and then just feel miserable.
我喜欢你的想法，确保如果你真的睡着了，你不会意外地睡太久然后感到痛苦。
So mimic the conditions that you're trying to get that you would normally get at night.
因此，请模仿您通常在晚上遇到的情况。
That will increase the probability.
这样概率就会增加。
Mask out noise, mask out light, kick your shoes off, have some kind of a blanket wrapping around you.
掩盖噪音，掩盖光线，脱掉鞋子，用某种毯子裹住你。
That's probably the best.
这可能是最好的了。
And then time it based on this sort of postprandial drop.
然后根据这种餐后下降来计时。
You will know yourself.
你会认识你自己。
Everyone has fallen prey to it.
每个人都成为了它的牺牲品。
You know, "Wow, it's usually around about 3:00, 4:00 PM that I do start to feel this decline," or, "It's around 1:00 PM." Try to match it in accordance with that.
您知道，“哇，通常在下午 3:00、4:00 左右我开始感觉到这种下降”，或者“在下午 1:00 左右。”尝试按照此进行匹配。
So those are the first, I think, two questions.
我认为这是第一个问题。
Should you?
你应该吗？
Not necessarily.
未必。
If you would like to and are not normally doing it, how can you do it?
如果您愿意但通常不这样做，您该如何做？
The final point I think is fascinating, which is these alternate states of conscious brain activity.
我认为最后一点很有趣，那就是有意识的大脑活动的这些交替状态。
The most obvious is when we're awake and when we're asleep.
最明显的是我们醒着和睡着的时候。
Those are the two most dramatic changes in consciousness that we experience on a daily basis short of anesthesia.
这是我们在没有麻醉的情况下每天经历的两个最戏剧性的意识变化。
I've become, like you, very fascinated by these sort of both meditative states or these liminal states.
我和你一样，对这些冥想状态或阈限状态非常着迷。
I think at some point, you and I should collaborate, and we should do some work and really unpack this.
我认为在某些时候，你和我应该合作，我们应该做一些工作并真正解开这个问题。
But the reason I find this interesting is because I'm going to guess you are having sleep-like states, but you are not fully asleep.
但我觉得这很有趣的原因是因为我猜测你正在处于类似睡眠的状态，但你并没有完全睡着。
How would I define a sleep-like state?
我如何定义类似睡眠的状态？
What we've learned is that your brain, the way it sleeps, isn't en masse.
我们了解到，你的大脑和它睡眠的方式并不是一个整体。
It's not as though your entire brain sleeps.
这并不是说你的整个大脑都在睡觉。
Different territories of your brain can sleep in different ways.
大脑的不同区域可以以不同的方式睡眠。
And what we've also known, and there's some argument, even individual brain cells seem to have a period where they go into sleep.
我们也知道，并且有一些争论，即使是单个脑细胞似乎也有一个进入睡眠的时期。
And these individual neurons will start to show what look like these beautiful, big, powerful, deep, slow waves in terms of their firing rate, at least in terms of those neurons firing away.
这些单独的神经元将开始显示出这些美丽的、大的、强大的、深的、慢的波的放电率，至少是那些神经元的放电率。
I bring this up because if that means that your brain can have local sleep rather than global sleep, if you are in global sleep, you're out like a light.
我提出这个问题是因为，如果这意味着你的大脑可以进行局部睡眠而不是全局睡眠，那么如果你处于全局睡眠中，你就会像一盏灯一样消失。
You are asleep.
你睡着了。
But perhaps these liminal states, the reason that they give these benefits is because you are still awake, not global sleep, so if you're in global sleep, you're asleep.
但也许这些阈值状态，它们提供这些好处的原因是因为你仍然醒着，而不是全局睡眠，所以如果你处于全局睡眠中，你就睡着了。
But you're awake, so you're not in global sleep.
但你是醒着的，所以你没有处于全局睡眠状态。
But you may be having local sleep.
但你可能正在局部睡眠。
Now, using special setups in my laboratory, we can apply tens, maybe hundreds of electrodes all over your head, and we can map the different places where your brain is having sleep in much higher resolution.
现在，使用我实验室中的特殊设置，我们可以在您的头上应用数十个甚至数百个电极，并且我们可以以更高的分辨率绘制您大脑睡眠的不同位置。
So rather than a 480 DPI movie on YouTube, I'm now in 4K resolution.
因此，我现在使用的是 4K 分辨率，而不是 YouTube 上的 480 DPI 电影。
I can really dismantle what's going on analytically in your brain.
我真的可以分析你大脑中正在发生的事情。
I'm going to guess that when you're going into these states and you report coming out of those states, and I ask you, "On a scale of one to 10, how would you rate that as an experience based on your common experience?" The greater the intensity of the liminal benefit and state that you experienced, I'm going to predict it's directly related to the extent of this local deep non-REM slow wave sleep that's happening.
我猜当你进入这些州并报告离开这些州时，我问你，“根据你的共同经历，你会如何评价这种经历？”您所经历的阈值益处和状态的强度越大，我预测它与正在发生的局部深度非快速眼动慢波睡眠的程度直接相关。
You're still awake, but some parts of your brain, for maybe seconds of time or maybe even tens of seconds of time, I'm going to bet, will be oscillating in what look like slow wave sleep, deep sleep states.
你仍然醒着，但我敢打赌，你大脑的某些部分可能会在几秒钟甚至几十秒的时间里，在看起来像慢波睡眠、深度睡眠的状态下振荡。
And if all I would be able to look at is that one part of your brain and that small cluster of electrodes and someone said to me "Is this person awake or asleep?" I would say, "Oh, they're asleep.
如果我能看到的只是你大脑的一部分和一小群电极，有人对我说“这个人是醒着还是睡着了？”我会说：“哦，他们睡着了。
They're in deep sleep." But then if you slowly reveal and back out and show me the rest of the brain and what it's doing, I would say, "Oh my goodness.
他们正处于深度睡眠状态。”但如果你慢慢地揭示并退出并向我展示大脑的其余部分以及它在做什么，我会说，“哦，天哪。
No, this person must be awake." But that local territory, that district up there in their brain, they were having slow-wave sleep.
不，这个人一定是醒着的。”但在他们大脑中的那个局部区域，他们正在进行慢波睡眠。
I think that's what we could find, and that may predict some of the benefits that you get, some of the productivity energy benefits.
我认为这就是我们可以找到的，并且可以预测您获得的一些好处，一些生产力能源效益。
By the way, I should note that with all of this nap racket, NASA figured this out back in the 1980s.
顺便说一句，我应该指出，随着所有这些午睡的喧闹，美国宇航局 (NASA) 在 20 世纪 80 年代就发现了这一点。
They were looking at ways to optimize their astronauts because when you are up in orbit, depending on what orbit you're in, you are rotating around the planet maybe 10, 20 times per 24 hours.
他们正在寻找优化宇航员的方法，因为当你在轨道上时，根据你所处的轨道，你可能每 24 小时绕地球旋转 10 到 20 次。
So you're seeing 10 to 20 sunsets and sunrises.
所以你会看到 10 到 20 次日落和日出。
So your sleep is a total mess.
所以你的睡眠一团糟。
And you can safety check almost everything in terms of technology, but the one weak link in a space mission is this thing called the human being.
你可以对几乎所有技术进行安全检查，但太空任务中的一个薄弱环节就是人类。
That's where errors typically happen.
这就是错误通常发生的地方。
So how do you de-risk a human error up in space?
那么如何降低太空中人为错误的风险呢？
Because if you make an error up there, on the ground not great, up there, kind of catastrophic.
因为如果你在那里犯了一个错误，在地面上情况不太好，但在上面，那就是灾难性的。
You can try to optimize their ability to sleep and their ability to maintain focus, concentration, alertness, and productivity.
您可以尝试优化他们的睡眠能力以及保持注意力、注意力、警觉性和生产力的能力。
And what they found was that these naps produced almost a 20% boost in short naps, 20% boost in their alertness, and almost a 50% boost in their task productivity.
他们发现，这些小睡使短小睡的时间提高了近 20%，警觉性提高了 20%，工作效率提高了近 50%。
And it was so powerful that it translated to the terrestrial employees of NASA on the ground, and it became what was known as the NASA Nap Culture.
它的影响力如此之大，甚至影响到了美国宇航局地面员工，形成了所谓的“美国宇航局午睡文化”。
And from there on, we had what were called power naps.
从那时起，我们就开始了所谓的小睡。
Power naps, by the way, why are they called power naps?
顺便问一下，为什么叫小睡呢？
And you think, well, just because it powers me up.
你想，好吧，只是因为它给了我力量。
It's a good idea, but it's wrong.
这是个好主意，但却是错误的。
It has a very specific story, a fascinating one.
它有一个非常具体、引人入胜的故事。
Two legends in my field, David Dinges, and Mark Rosekind, they were looking at how to instigate risk mitigation, not in astronauts, but in pilots who are doing long-haul flights.
我所在领域的两位传奇人物，大卫·丁格斯（David Dinges）和马克·罗斯金德（Mark Rosekind），他们正在研究如何降低风险，不是针对宇航员，而是针对进行长途飞行的飞行员。
Because the most dangerous aspect of a long-haul flight is when it is coming down to land, and that's when they can sometimes have these things called a catastrophic hull loss, which is a euphemistic phrase for a terrible plane crash.
因为长途飞行最危险的方面是降落时，有时会发生所谓的灾难性机身损失，这是可怕的飞机失事的委婉说法。
And they were trying to say, how could you use naps strategically to de-risk that and improve their alertness?
他们试图说，如何策略性地利用小睡来降低风险并提高他们的警觉性？
And they asked a very interesting question.
他们问了一个非常有趣的问题。
If they can nap for only a certain period of time because they have to be at work on the plane for the rest of it, when should you place that nap?
如果他们只能小睡一段时间，因为其余时间他们必须在飞机上工作，那么您应该什么时候小睡？
Should you do it at the start of the long-haul flight, in the middle, or towards the end?
您应该在长途飞行开始时、中间还是快结束时进行此操作？
And most people would bet, like they, I think, did, it's best to place it at the end when you're really starting to struggle, get that boost, and then you wake up, you're not in sleep inertia because it's been brief, and then you're energized for landing.
大多数人都会打赌，就像他们一样，我想，最好把它放在最后，当你真正开始挣扎时，得到那种推动，然后你醒来，你不会陷入睡眠惯性，因为它很短暂，然后你就会充满能量地着陆。
They didn't find that.
他们没有发现这一点。
They found that the most optimal time to nap was early on in that long-haul flight, and it sustained them throughout the rest of the flight.
他们发现，最佳的小睡时间是在长途飞行的早期，并且可以在整个飞行过程中维持小睡。
Now, they took their findings to the FAA, who are funding the work, and the Federal Aviation Authority here in the United States, and they said, "We've got some great findings, and we think we should implement this, and we would like to use a term to help pilots understand this, and it's called prophylactic napping." And of course, there were many chuckles throughout the room, perhaps inappropriate, and they just said, "Look, you've got to understand, our pilots, they're kind of alpha male guys, and if you're starting to say you need to prophylactically nap, it's not going to be adopted.
现在，他们将研究结果提交给了资助这项工作的美国联邦航空管理局和美国联邦航空管理局，他们说：“我们有一些很棒的发现，我们认为我们应该实施这一点，我们想用一个术语来帮助飞行员理解这一点，这就是所谓的预防性小睡。”当然，整个房间里有很多笑声，也许不合适，他们只是说，“听着，你必须明白，我们的飞行员，他们是雄性领袖，如果你开始说你需要预防性小睡，它不会被采纳。
That's a no-go." So they looked around the room because it's an alpha male culture, it's a mostly masculine culture at that time.
那是不行的。”所以他们环顾房间，因为这是一种阿尔法男性文化，当时主要是男性文化。
They said, "What could we..." And there's a lot of beard stroking, and they said, "I've got it.
他们说，“我们能做什么……”然后抚摸着很多胡子，他们说，“我明白了。
Power naps.
电源小睡。
It's got to be about power." And so that is where if you've ever wondered where the term power naps come from, it's not because it reboosts your power, which it does, and boosts it back up.
这一定与权力有关。”所以，如果你想知道“小睡”这个词的由来，那并不是因为它会重新增强你的力量，而它确实会增强你的力量，并重新增强它。
It's because there was chuckles at the term prophylactic napping.
这是因为“预防性小睡”这个词引起了人们的笑声。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge our sponsor, Eight Sleep.
我想短暂休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商“八睡”。
Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity.
August Sleep 生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。
Many times on this podcast, we discuss how in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually needs to drop by about one to three degrees.
在这个播客中，我们多次讨论为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的体温实际上需要下降约一到三度。
And in order to wake up feeling maximally refreshed and energized, your body temperature needs to heat up by about one to three degrees.
为了在醒来时感到最大程度的神清气爽和精力充沛，您的体温需要升高约一到三度。
Eight Sleep makes it very easy to control the temperature of your sleeping environment so that it's easy to fall and stay asleep and wake up feeling refreshed.
八睡眠让您可以轻松控制睡眠环境的温度，从而轻松入睡并保持睡眠状态，醒来时感觉神清气爽。
I started sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover several years ago, and it has completely and positively transformed my sleep.
几年前，我开始睡在八睡床罩上，它彻底、积极地改变了我的睡眠。
So much so that when I travel to hotels or Airbnbs, I really miss my Eight Sleep.
以至于当我去酒店或 Airbnb 旅行时，我真的很怀念我的八觉睡眠。
I've even shipped my Eight Sleep out to hotels that I've been staying in because it improves my sleep that much.
我什至把我的八睡眠送到我一直住过的酒店，因为它极大地改善了我的睡眠。
If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, you can go to eightsleep.com/huberman to save $150 off their Pod 3 cover.
如果您想尝试八睡眠，您可以访问八睡眠.com/huberman，在其 Pod 3 封面上可节省 150 美元。
Eight Sleep currently ships to the USA, Canada, UK, select countries in the EU, and Australia.
八睡眠目前运往美国、加拿大、英国、欧盟部分国家和澳大利亚。
Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman.
再说一遍，这是八睡眠.com/huberman。
The naming of things fascinates me, especially in the landscape of health and wellbeing also.
事物的命名让我着迷，尤其是在健康和福祉方面。
And that's one reason why having become a real fan and practitioner of yoga nidra, which I think translates to yoga sleep, which is this process of lying down for a period of 30 to 60 minutes Progressive relaxation.
这就是为什么我成为瑜伽休息术真正的粉丝和练习者的原因之一，我认为这可以翻译为瑜伽睡眠，即躺下 30 至 60 分钟渐进式放松的过程。
These are scripts that are readily available as this is an age-old practice in India that is meant to restore mental and physical vigor-
这些脚本很容易获得，因为这是印度一种古老的做法，旨在恢复精神和身体活力。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
by placing one into one of these liminal states.
将一个人置于这些阈限状态之一。
And I have great respect for the Nidra tradition, but sometimes the names are a separator.
我非常尊重尼德拉的传统，但有时名字是一个分隔符。
So people who hear yoga Nidra and they think, "Oh, it must be yoga movement," and that's of course not true, or they think that there must be some mystical component to it, which is not necessarily true.
因此，听到瑜伽休息术的人会想，“哦，这一定是瑜伽运动”，这当然不是真的，或者他们认为它一定有一些神秘的成分，但这不一定是真的。
Sometimes they include intentions and things like that, but often not.
有时它们包括意图和类似的东西，但通常不是。
So that's why I coined this phrase a non-sleep deep rest, which essentially maintains the critical components of yoga Nidra, but doesn't include intentions and has these shorter 10 or 20-minute protocols.
这就是为什么我创造了“非睡眠深度休息”这个短语，它本质上保留了瑜伽休息术的关键组成部分，但不包括意图，并且有这些较短的 10 或 20 分钟的方案。
So it'd be great fun and I think very interesting for us to do that project to explore what are the brain's activation states or deactivation states, as the case may be-
所以这会很有趣，我认为我们做这个项目来探索大脑的激活状态或失活状态（视情况而定）非常有趣 -
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in these non-traditional or liminal state practices.
在这些非传统或有限的国家实践中。
Now, along the lines of power napping, specifically in the naming of power napping, I think it's more than just an anecdote because I think it is very important for people to understand that these protocols, these tools that NASA and that laboratories have developed oftentimes are for other purposes, but they translate to a kind of broader significance.
现在，沿着能量小睡的思路，特别是在能量小睡的命名中，我认为这不仅仅是一个轶事，因为我认为让人们了解这些协议、这些美国宇航局和实验室经常开发的工具是为了其他目的，但它们转化为一种更广泛的意义是非常重要的。
And what I'm hearing and what I'm starting to integrate as we have today's conversation is that it seems that there is pretty good reason to at least explore biphasic sleep, right?
我所听到的以及我在今天的谈话中开始整合的内容是，似乎有充分的理由至少探索双相睡眠，对吗？
That for the non-nappers to really think about whether or not they would like to explore napping.
对于不午睡的人来说，要真正考虑他们是否愿意探索午睡。
As you mentioned, they don't have to.
正如您提到的，他们不必这样做。
And then for people who are already napping, to really think about the placement of that nap within the day and the duration of that nap.
然后，对于已经在小睡的人来说，要真正考虑一下小睡在一天中的安排以及小睡的持续时间。
What you told us a few moments ago suggests that I should be doing, or anyone that's doing naps or entering these liminal states like NSDR, might want to shift them a little bit earlier than the period in which they first become sleepy to take that nap.
你刚才告诉我们的内容表明我应该这样做，或者任何正在小睡或进入像 NSDR 这样的阈值状态的人，可能希望将它们转移到比他们第一次感到困倦小睡的时间段早一点的位置。
Is that right?
是这样吗？
So for instance, should I do as my colleague and finish lunch and lie down for 10, 15 minutes rather than wait until 2:00 or 3:00 PM?
例如，我应该像我的同事一样，吃完午餐并躺下 10、15 分钟，而不是等到下午 2:00 或 3:00？
Is that something that could make a meaningful difference?
这能带来有意义的改变吗？
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
I think it could, and I think it really, again, depends on how much of a struggle sleep becomes in the evening for you.
我认为这可能，而且我认为这确实取决于您晚上的睡眠困难程度。
If it is becoming the later that you nap, if your sleep becomes either A, more difficult to initiate in the evening, or maybe you don't have any problems falling asleep, but for some reason when I look back, I'm now starting to wake up more throughout the night.
如果你小睡的时间越来越晚，如果你的睡眠变得A，晚上更难开始，或者也许你入睡没有任何问题，但出于某种原因，当我回想起来时，我现在开始整夜醒来的次数更多。
That in part, again, it's not just that if you nap late in the day, you struggle to fall asleep.
在某种程度上，这不仅仅是因为如果你在一天中睡得很晚，你就很难入睡。
You may not.
你可能不会。
The other consequence that can happen, which is non-mutually exclusive, is that you then stay in not as deep a sleep, and your sleep is more fragile in that sense.
可能发生的另一个结果（非互斥的）是，您的睡眠深度不那么深，从这个意义上说，您的睡眠更加脆弱。
So the probability that you will wake up because you had the nap so late in the day is higher in the middle of the night.
因此，你在半夜因为睡得太晚而醒来的可能性更高。
And then when you wake up, like many of us do, and you go to the restroom, it's perfectly natural, but the speed with which you can then fall back asleep is compromised.
然后，当您像我们许多人一样醒来并去洗手间时，这是完全自然的，但您重新入睡的速度会受到影响。
Why?
为什么？
Because you've jettisoned some of that sleepiness by way of the nap, and there isn't as much to take you back down into sleep after you've woken up.
因为你通过小睡已经摆脱了一些睡意，醒来后就没有那么多的东西可以让你重新入睡。
So I would just say that if you are seeing that pattern, the later napping that you're doing, if you're doing that, and again, there's no reason that you need to nap, only if you choose to nap.
所以我只想说，如果你看到这种模式，你正在做的稍后小睡，如果你正在这样做，那么，只有当你选择小睡时，你没有理由需要小睡。
If that's the case, then consider not necessarily obviating the nap.
如果是这样的话，那么就考虑不一定要避免小睡。
That may not be required.
这可能不是必需的。
Just bring it back earlier, take it after lunch, see how things work out.
早点带回来，午饭后拿，看看效果如何。
Do the experiment.
做实验。
And when you do the experiment, make sure that you do what I would describe as the on-off-on experiment, which is where you're napping as you normally do, and you've noticed perhaps some problems with your sleep.
当你做实验时，确保你做了我所说的开关实验，即你像平常一样小睡，并且你已经注意到你的睡眠可能存在一些问题。
So that's sort of the on-off-on phase.
这就是一个开关阶段。
So then change your nap protocol and move it earlier.
因此，改变你的午睡方案并提前进行。
So now you've switched off your standard protocol, and you've moved on to something different.
现在您已经关闭了标准协议，并转向了不同的协议。
So you're on your standard protocol, and then you come off it, and when you come off it, meaning you go to an earlier nap, and you say, "Gosh, things do seem to be better.
所以你遵循你的标准协议，然后你就停止它，当你停止它时，这意味着你早点小睡，然后你说，“天哪，事情似乎确实好多了。
Maybe he had something there, and it just seemed to improve." Good, but I don't trust that because maybe it's just a placebo effect that you hear some dulcet British tones, and you get convinced that maybe that would work.
也许他有一些东西，而且似乎只是有所改善。”很好，但我不相信这一点，因为也许这只是一种安慰剂效应，你听到一些悦耳的英国音调，然后你确信这可能会起作用。
Now, instead, after about two weeks of doing that and things have improved, go back to your original schedule.
现在，在这样做大约两周之后，情况有所改善，然后回到原来的日程安排。
Go back on to your original protocol.
返回到原来的协议。
I'm not as interested about the fact that things got better when we changed it.
我对我们改变它后事情变得更好这一事实不那么感兴趣。
I'm interested in the question, do things get worse when we stop it?
我对这个问题感兴趣，当我们停止它时，事情会变得更糟吗？
And so when we stop the intervention, if things got worse again, now I'm believing it a lot more.
因此，当我们停止干预时，如果情况再次变得更糟，现在我更加相信这一点。
So just as a tip, if you are a self-tinkerer, you don't have to do that, but if you're idiotic like me and a scientist, and you want to do it with this silly rigor, that's the way I would suggest doing it.
所以，作为一个提示，如果你是一个自我修修补补的人，你不必这样做，但如果你像我和科学家一样白痴，并且你想以这种愚蠢的严谨来做，那就是我建议这样做的方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't think it's idiotic at all.
我认为这根本不是愚蠢的。
I think it's systematic, and what you just described is both a negative control and a positive control experiment.
我认为这是系统性的，你刚才描述的既是阴性对照又是阳性对照实验。
So you're-
所以你是——
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Thank you
谢谢你
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you are a scientist-
你是一名科学家-
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
To add the terms
添加条款
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
through and through.
通过和通过。
Are there any individuals that should absolutely avoid napping?
有哪些人绝对应该避免午睡？
I've heard lore of elderly folks, folks with certain conditions, I can't imagine which, but I'm sure you'll tell us, for whom napping is harmful to their health.
我听说过一些关于老年人、患有某些病症的人的传说，我无法想象是哪些人，但我相信你会告诉我们，对于他们来说，午睡对他们的健康有害。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
It's a very I think interesting question, because the strongest evidence comes back to that which we've mentioned before, which is insomnia, and really the recommendation there is just avoid naps.
我认为这是一个非常有趣的问题，因为最有力的证据可以追溯到我们之前提到的失眠，而且实际上的建议是避免小睡。
And what's problematic about insomnia, when you are having such tough times with sleep at night and you are just dragging through the day, it is miserable.
失眠的问题在于，当你晚上睡不着觉，而你只是拖着一天的时间，那是很痛苦的。
And I am very protective of my sleep.
我非常保护自己的睡眠。
For the most part, I sleep pretty well, but I'm not immune to the vagaries of sleep.
在大多数情况下，我睡得很好，但我也不能幸免于睡眠的变幻莫测。
I've had two bouts of insomnia throughout my life.
我一生中经历过两次失眠。
Both have been what we call reactive insomnia, reactive to an event or something happening.
两者都是我们所说的反应性失眠，即对事件或正在发生的事情做出反应。
And I know how just desperate and hungry you are for sleep, and if it's happening week after week, month after month, I'll just do anything to get sleep when I can.
我知道你对睡眠是多么的渴望和渴望，如果这种情况一周又一周、一月又一月地发生，我会尽一切努力让自己入睡。
And the temptation, therefore, to nap when you are suffering from insomnia is that much higher, and therefore the advice is that much harder to adopt.
因此，当你患有失眠症时，小睡的诱惑就更大，因此建议更难采纳。
But trust me, that is one of the components that we have in the psychological treatment bucket that we use for insomnia, which is called cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia, or CBT-I for short.
但请相信我，这是我们用于治疗失眠的心理治疗的组成部分之一，称为失眠认知行为疗法，简称 CBT-I。
And you can just look it up, or on my own podcast, I've done a six-part series on insomnia.
你可以查一下，或者在我自己的播客上，我做了一个关于失眠的六部分系列。
So I would say try to back away in that circumstance.
所以我会说在这种情况下尝试后退。
But you brought up another example, which is in aging.
但你提到了另一个例子，那就是衰老。
There, I think the evidence is a little less causal, so you have to be more cautious about recommending the absence, as I was with insomnia, of abstaining from naps.
在那里，我认为证据的因果关系要弱一些，所以你必须更加谨慎地建议不要小睡，就像我在失眠时所做的那样。
But the data has now become quite strong that when you get past about 65 years old and you look at napping behavior in large epidemiological studies, and you say, "Is there a positive benefit in aging for napping, or is there no benefit at all?" And they looked at that because they thought, well, that perhaps based on the work in healthy adults that I've described, that would be good for older adults.
但现在的数据已经变得相当有力，当你过了 65 岁左右，你在大型流行病学研究中观察午睡行为时，你会说，“随着年龄的增长，午睡是否有积极的好处，还是根本没有好处？”他们之所以关注这一点，是因为他们认为，也许基于我所描述的对健康成年人的研究，这对老年人有好处。
Not only did they find that it wasn't good, they found that it was deleterious, that napping in older adults was predictive of worse health outcomes, and it also seemed to predict a higher likelihood of early mortality.
他们发现这不仅不好，而且有害，老年人的午睡预示着健康状况会更差，而且似乎还预示着早期死亡的可能性更高。
So at this point, we're thinking, well, how does that fit with everything you've been telling us?
所以在这一点上，我们在想，这与您告诉我们的一切是否相符？
It comes back to this notion of bad sleep at night.
这又回到了晚上睡眠不好的概念。
It's probably not necessarily that napping during the day is bad for older adults.
白天小睡可能并不一定对老年人有害。
It's that the naps reflect a problem with the night of sleep for older adults.
小睡反映了老年人夜间睡眠的问题。
And as we get older, something I didn't mention during development was that, yes, we get this sort of stable ratio of four to one, of one part REM sleep, four parts non-REM in our seven to nine hours.
随着年龄的增长，我在开发过程中没有提到的是，是的，我们在七到九个小时内得到了这种稳定的四比一的比例，一部分是快速眼动睡眠，四部分是非快速眼动睡眠。
And I described these changes in REM early in development.
我在 REM 发育早期描述了这些变化。
I didn't mention two things about non-REM slow-wave activity.
我没有提到关于非快速眼动慢波活动的两件事。
First, as we go into our teenage years and we shift our sort of timing of sleep, where we want to go to bed later and wake up later, that's biologically determined.
首先，当我们进入青少年时期时，我们会改变睡眠时间，晚睡晚起，这是由生物学决定的。
It's not teenagers' fault.
这不是青少年的错。
Something happens with their deep sleep, however.
然而，他们的深度睡眠会发生一些事情。
Their deep sleep starts to do a different action to the brain that REM sleep was doing as an infant.
他们的深度睡眠开始对大脑产生与婴儿时期的快速眼动睡眠不同的作用。
I said that during infancy, we have huge amounts of REM sleep, and we're growing synapses, synaptogenesis, and we're wiring up all of those new territories, all of these new neighborhoods with fiber optic cable.
我说过，在婴儿期，我们有大量的快速眼动睡眠，我们正在生长突触、突触发生，我们正在用光纤电缆连接所有这些新领域、所有这些新社区。
But let's say that you've now run the experiment across many years through until teenagehood of those neighborhoods, and you've been measuring the bandwidth consumption of each individual house.
但是，假设您现在已经对这些社区进行了多年的实验，一直到青少年时期，并且您一直在测量每个家庭的带宽消耗。
And you've started to realize, well, I wanted to create a big spread across the brain, and then I'm just going to let experience over the next years, time tell me which parts of the brain seem to enjoy that high bandwidth and which parts don't seem to use it very much.
你已经开始意识到，我想在大脑中创建一个大的分布，然后我会让未来几年的经验、时间告诉我大脑的哪些部分似乎喜欢高带宽，哪些部分似乎不太使用它。
And as we go through into our teenage years, we go through something called synaptic pruning, where the brain actually culls and takes away synapses from certain parts of the brain.
当我们进入青少年时期时，我们会经历一种叫做突触修剪的过程，即大脑实际上从大脑的某些部分剔除并去除突触。
It seems to be that this change in slow-wave sleep that happens around these adolescent years is performing the act of final cortical maturation, that it's downscaling the synapses and fine-tuning the brain.
青少年时期发生的慢波睡眠的这种变化似乎正在执行最终皮质成熟的作用，它正在缩小突触的规模并微调大脑。
So you've got this beautiful efficiency, and now you've throttled back some of the bandwidth from some of those neighborhoods because they just don't use it very much.
所以你已经获得了如此出色的效率，现在你已经限制了其中一些社区的一些带宽，因为他们只是不经常使用它。
And you can move it over into the territories that are demanding more bandwidth.
您可以将其转移到需要更多带宽的地区。
And net net, the brain is downscaled, but it's improved its efficiency in the sense that those regions that need it and are working hard based on what we think this organism has been doing over the past 13 years, that's where we need to now place our bets.
大脑的规模缩小了，但它提高了效率，因为那些需要它的区域正在努力工作，基于我们认为这个有机体在过去 13 年里一直在做的事情，这就是我们现在需要下注的地方。
But as we get through into our older years, and this will come back to this issue of napping, don't worry.
但当我们步入老年时，这又会回到小睡的问题上，别担心。
Stick with me here, folks.
伙计们，和我在一起吧。
The reason is that as we're getting older, our sleep declines.
原因是随着年龄的增长，我们的睡眠质量下降。
But it's not just all sleep declines.
但这不仅仅是睡眠下降。
Deep sleep declines most dramatically.
深度睡眠下降最为显着。
And we all think of aging from brain perspective as cognitive decline, that our learning and memory abilities begin to fade and decline, and they do.
从大脑的角度来看，我们都认为衰老是认知能力下降，我们的学习和记忆能力开始衰退和下降，事实确实如此。
But I would argue that a physiological signature of aging is that your sleep gets worse, and particularly your deep sleep What's perhaps concerning for people listening to this right now is that that decline in deep sleep doesn't start happening in your 60s or your 50s or even your 40s.
但我认为，衰老的一个生理特征是你的睡眠变得更糟，尤其是你的深度睡眠。现在听这个的人可能担心的是，深度睡眠的下降并不会在你 60 多岁、50 多岁甚至 40 多岁时开始发生。
We can start to pick up that great sleep decline beginning in your mid to late 30s, and then it just decreases.
我们可以从 30 多岁中后期开始发现睡眠大幅下降，然后就开始下降。
And by age 50, you are down to about 50% of the deep non-REM sleep that you were having when you were 17 or 18.
到 50 岁时，您的深度非快速眼动睡眠时间仅为 17 或 18 岁时的 50% 左右。
By age 65 and over, or certainly by age 75, you are down to about just 5% of the deep sleep that you had when you were 17 or 18, which is a stunning decline.
到 65 岁及以上，或者当然到 75 岁时，您的深度睡眠时间仅为 17 或 18 岁时的 5% 左右，这是一个惊人的下降。
What that means comes back to the first episode.
这意味着什么，回到第一集。
We spoke about the four macros of good sleep: quantity, quality, timing, and regularity.
我们讨论了良好睡眠的四个宏观因素：数量、质量、时间和规律。
One of the measures of quality that I described to you was this electrical quality of deep sleep.
我向您描述的质量衡量标准之一是深度睡眠的电质量。
The other measure of quality sleep I spoke about was how consolidated and consistent your sleep is versus how fragmented your sleep is.
我谈到的衡量睡眠质量的另一个指标是睡眠的巩固性和一致性与睡眠的碎片化程度。
The measure of sleep quality is markedly compromised as we get older.
随着年龄的增长，睡眠质量的衡量标准明显下降。
We're waking up many more times, our sleep is much more fragmented, and therefore our sleep efficiency is worse, and we've got this huge decline in our deep non-REM sleep.
我们醒来的次数更多，我们的睡眠更加碎片化，因此我们的睡眠效率更差，我们的深度非快速眼动睡眠也大幅下降。
So no wonder then, when you are awake during the day as an older adult, your sleep quality is so compromised at that stage, you perhaps try to compensate by way of napping.
因此，难怪当您作为老年人白天醒着时，您的睡眠质量在那个阶段会受到很大影响，您可能会尝试通过小睡来弥补。
But that compromised quality of sleep that you're having at night is probably the reason that you start to get sick more, that you have a higher probability of illness and disease, and why also you probably have a higher risk of premature mortality.
但是，夜间睡眠质量下降可能是您开始生病的原因，您患病的可能性更高，而且您过早死亡的风险也可能更高。
So in other words, it's the bad quality of sleep at night that leads to this behavior that we call daytime napping in older adults.
换句话说，正是晚上睡眠质量差导致了老年人出现这种我们称之为白天小睡的行为。
That seems to indirectly suggest, oh my goodness, it's daytime napping that's bad and that causes these problems, when in fact it's that daytime napping is a proxy for the bad sleep that's happening at night, and it's really the bad sleep that's happening at night that is more directly related to the health and mortality concerns in older adults.
这似乎间接表明，天哪，白天小睡是不好的，会导致这些问题，而事实上，白天小睡是晚上睡眠质量不好的一个代表，而晚上睡眠质量不好，与老年人的健康和死亡率问题更直接相关。
So that's why I think right now as a field, I'm still open to evidence that napping, for some reason that we just do not understand right now, is problematic and does causally predict worse health and a shorter lifespan in older adults.
因此，这就是为什么我认为目前作为一个领域，我仍然愿意接受证据表明，出于某种我们现在还不明白的原因，小睡是有问题的，并且确实会导致老年人的健康状况恶化和寿命缩短。
I think the best evidence that we have right now is that it's actually the bad quality of sleep at night, and thus we should not be necessarily jumping to recommendations that all older adults should stop napping.
我认为我们现在掌握的最好证据是，这实际上是晚上睡眠质量差，因此我们不一定会急于建议所有老年人都应该停止打盹。
I think we need more evidence, and I'm open to both sides of that.
我认为我们需要更多证据，我对双方都持开放态度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's talk about caffeine.
我们来谈谈咖啡因。
I've heard the term, is it nappuccino?
我听说过这个词，是纳布奇诺吗？
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think it refers to a practice of drinking some caffeine, then laying down for a nap, and then supposedly waking up feeling more refreshed.
我认为它指的是喝一些咖啡因，然后躺下小睡，然后醒来感觉更精神焕发的做法。
My understanding, and you'll tell us more, of course, is that caffeine is effectively an adenosine antagonist, although it's a competitive agonist, and you'll explain-
当然，我的理解是，咖啡因实际上是一种腺苷拮抗剂，尽管它是一种竞争性激动剂，你会解释-
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I'm sure.
我确定。
And napping, as you mentioned before, removes some of the sleep pressure, AKA wipes away some of that adenosine that's accumulated.
正如您之前提到的，小睡可以消除一些睡眠压力，也就是消除一些积累的腺苷。
Both of which sound great, but as you mentioned earlier, there's a warning there as well.
两者听起来都很棒，但正如您之前提到的，那里也有一个警告。
The warning label on both those things should be that having sufficient adenosine built up in your brain is one of the ways in which you feel sleepy at night and fall asleep and stay asleep.
这两件事的警告标签应该是，大脑中积聚足够的腺苷是您晚上感到困倦、入睡并保持睡眠的方式之一。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what's the story with caffeine?
那么咖啡因的故事是什么呢？
How does it work to make us feel more alert?
它是如何让我们感觉更加警觉的？
And what is the rationale for the nappuccino?
纳布奇诺的理由是什么？
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
The nappuccino, also known as the caffeine nap.
纳布奇诺，也称为咖啡因小睡。
Caffeine is a very interesting compound in relationship to sleep and wake.
咖啡因是一种与睡眠和清醒有关的非常有趣的化合物。
Obviously, everyone knows that caffeine can help you stay awake.
显然，每个人都知道咖啡因可以帮助你保持清醒。
It's no coincidence that those two words that you've used about these chemical compounds, caffeine and adenosine, sound the same.
您所使用的关于这些化合物的两个词“咖啡因”和“腺苷”听起来相同，这并非巧合。
It's because the receptor systems that caffeine targets in your brain are the adenosine receptors.
这是因为咖啡因在大脑中针对的受体系统是腺苷受体。
And you think, well, Matt was telling me that the more adenosine that builds up, in other words, the more adenosine that's latching onto those adenosine receptors in your brain, the sleepier that you feel.
你认为，马特告诉我，积累的腺苷越多，换句话说，锁定大脑中腺苷受体的腺苷就越多，你就会感到越困。
And I'm telling you that caffeine works on those same receptors.
我告诉你咖啡因对这些相同的受体起作用。
That doesn't make sense.
这没有道理。
Caffeine, if it's working on those same receptors, should increase your sleepiness.
咖啡因如果作用于这些相同的受体，应该会增加你的睡意。
It doesn't because when it binds onto those adenosine receptors, those welcome sites in the brain, it simply blocks them.
事实并非如此，因为当它与那些腺苷受体（大脑中那些受欢迎的部位）结合时，它只会阻止它们。
It doesn't deactivate them, nor does it activate them.
它不会停用它们，也不会激活它们。
It simply blocks them.
它只是阻止了他们。
So think about it almost a little bit like a room that's full of chairs.
因此，可以将其想象为一个充满椅子的房间。
And at some point, these adenosine, which is one collection of people with the name badges of adenosine, they would normally like to come in and start sitting down on those seats, which are the adenosine receptors.
在某些时候，这些腺苷，这是一群带有腺苷名牌的人，他们通常会进来并开始坐在那些座位上，这些座位是腺苷受体。
And as they sit down on those seats, you're building up this signal of sleepiness.
当他们坐在这些座位上时，你就会产生这种困倦的信号。
Well, caffeine, which is another group of people with caffeine badges, they race into the room and they start to hijack the seats and they start to sit down on them.
好吧，咖啡因，这是另一群带有咖啡因徽章的人，他们冲进房间，开始劫持座位，并开始坐在上面。
And all of a sudden, adenosine can't find any seats to sit on So your brain is still flooding that room with adenosine.
突然之间，腺苷找不到任何座位，所以你的大脑仍然在那个房间里充满腺苷。
So the adenosine is still building up, but the reason that you don't feel sleepy anymore when you've had a shot of caffeine is because caffeine has raced in, it's latched onto the receptors, and it has essentially hit the mute button on your sleepiness.
所以腺苷仍在积累，但是当你喝了一杯咖啡后你不再感到困倦的原因是因为咖啡因已经快速进入，它被锁定在受体上，并且它基本上按下了你的困倦的静音按钮。
So now your brain was thinking, "Gosh, I've been awake for about 13 or 14 hours.
所以现在你的大脑在想，“天哪，我已经醒了大约 13 或 14 个小时了。
I'm starting to feel it.
我开始感觉到了。
I'm just going to take a quick espresso shot." And you get that.
我只是要快速喝一杯浓缩咖啡。”你明白了。
You think, "Well, hang on a second, 20, 30 minutes later, I don't feel as tired anymore." Why?
你会想，“好吧，等一下，20、30 分钟后，我不再感到那么累了。”为什么？
It's not because caffeine came in and removed the adenosine.
这并不是因为咖啡因进入并去除了腺苷。
It didn't.
事实并非如此。
Caffeine has come in, blocked the sites, but the adenosine is still building up.
咖啡因已经进入，堵塞了这些部位，但腺苷仍在积聚。
And then at some point, the caffeine wears off, and therefore, not only do you go back to the same level of adenosine that you did two hours ago, it's that plus the additional two hours of adenosine that has been building up, and what you experience is something called a caffeine crash.
然后在某个时刻，咖啡因逐渐消失，因此，你不仅会回到两小时前的腺苷水平，而且还会增加另外两个小时内积累的腺苷，你所经历的就是所谓的“咖啡因崩溃”。
And now you need even more caffeine, not just to get you back to where you were, but to recover the crash that you've had and go further.
现在你需要更多的咖啡因，不仅仅是为了让你回到原来的状态，而是为了恢复你所遭受的崩溃并走得更远。
Caffeine in relationship to the caffeine nap, though, the nappuccino, is relevant because of its timing.
然而，咖啡因与咖啡因小睡（纳布奇诺）的关系因其时间而相关。
Caffeine has an instigating action of around 12, 14 to 17 minutes.
咖啡因的刺激作用持续约 12、14 至 17 分钟。
So when you come through in the morning and you grab your first cup of coffee, and within the first four or five minutes, you say, "Oh, I just feel better.
因此，当你早上过来喝第一杯咖啡时，在最初的四五分钟内，你会说：“哦，我感觉好多了。
I've just had a couple of sips.
我刚刚喝了几口。
I've had half a cup of coffee, and I already feel better.
我喝了半杯咖啡，感觉好多了。
I just needed that." If it's within the first five minutes that you're experiencing that, it's got nothing to do with the caffeine, because the peak plasma concentration of your caffeine is not going to arrive with you until about 12 to 17 minutes.
我只是需要那个。”如果您在最初 5 分钟内出现这种情况，则与咖啡因无关，因为您的咖啡因血浆浓度要到大约 12 至 17 分钟才会达到峰值。
So why do you feel better?
那为什么你感觉好多了？
Some of it is placebo because you're smelling the coffee and you associate it with alertness.
其中一些是安慰剂，因为你闻到咖啡的味道并将其与警觉性联系起来。
It's really not that, though.
但事实并非如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or when you say placebo, I also wonder whether or not it's possibly a conditioned effect.
或者当你说安慰剂时，我也想知道这是否可能是一种条件效应。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like a Pavlovian thing, because the smell of the coffee, the taste of the coffee, the-
就像巴甫洛夫的事情，因为咖啡的气味，咖啡的味道，那——
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
The ritual of doing it, yeah
这样做的仪式，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the hum of the machine, or the walking into the cafe and ordering it from the barista also creates an anticipatory arousal.
机器的嗡嗡声，或者走进咖啡馆并向咖啡师点菜也会产生预期的唤醒。
Like the alertness is coming, and in that anticipation, there's its own form of alertness, right?
就像警觉性即将到来一样，在那种期待中，有它自己的警觉性，对吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
I think that's certainly a big component of it.
我认为这肯定是其中的一个重要组成部分。
The other component, however, if you look at the data, is that it's got nothing to do with the caffeine in that moment.
然而，如果你查看数据，另一个组成部分是，它与当时的咖啡因无关。
It's the temperature.
这是温度。
That most people take their caffeine warm.
大多数人都会将咖啡因加热。
Either it's tea or it's coffee, or it's perhaps something else that Andrew Huberman would drink, but many people-
要么是茶，要么是咖啡，或者安德鲁·休伯曼可能会喝其他东西，但很多人——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yerba mate.
耶巴伙伴。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Since I was five years old.
从我五岁起。
I don't know if I should've been drinking caffeinated yerba mate so young.
我不知道我这么年轻是否应该喝含咖啡因的马黛茶。
Maybe even four years old.
甚至可能只有四岁。
There's a photo of me on my grandfather's lap drinking out of the mate gourd.
有一张我坐在祖父腿上用马黛茶葫芦喝酒的照片。
Half my family is Argentine.
我的家人有一半是阿根廷人。
And so I was caffeinated from a young age.
所以我从小就喝咖啡。
This brain developed in a caffeinated milieu.
这个大脑是在含咖啡因的环境中发育的。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
This explains so much- ...
这解释了很多——...
about what I've known of you over these years.
关于这些年来我对你的了解。
No, I'm kidding you.
不，我在开玩笑。
But we need to speak later.
但我们需要稍后再说。
No. So what's interesting about that is it's the temperature, and I told you in the first episode that we need to cool down to stay asleep, but we need to initially warm up to fall asleep because warming up at that moment, I was telling you, is warming up at the periphery.
不。所以有趣的是温度，我在第一集中告诉过你，我们需要冷静下来才能入睡，但我们需要首先热身才能入睡，因为我告诉你，那一刻的热身正在外围热身。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Warm up to cool down to fall asleep.
热身、降温、入睡。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
So you need to warm up to cool down to fall asleep, then you need to stay cool to stay asleep, and then you need to warm up to wake up.
所以你需要先热身降温才能入睡，然后你需要保持凉爽才能睡着，然后你需要热身才能醒来。
The warming up to cool down to fall asleep is not warming up in the middle deep core of your body.
从放松到入睡的热身并不是在你身体的中深层热身。
It's about warming up the hands and the feet and the head to dissipate the heat, hence warm up the outer surfaces to cool down the inner core to fall asleep.
就是让手脚和头部暖起来，以散热，从而使外表面暖起来，让内核降温，从而入睡。
But then I told you, you have to warm up to wake up.
但后来我告诉你，你必须热身才能醒来。
And when we take a hot drink in the morning, usually caffeinated, the change in your core body temperature can happen within a handful of minutes.
当我们早上喝一杯热饮（通常含有咖啡因）时，核心体温会在几分钟内发生变化。
So the initial benefit that you get from the hot cup of coffee in the morning or hot tea is from the temperature rise, and then you get this beautiful second kick from the caffeine itself, and that caffeine can then sustain for a longer period of time.
因此，你早上喝一杯热咖啡或热茶的最初好处是温度升高，然后你会从咖啡因本身获得美妙的第二次刺激，然后咖啡因可以维持更长的时间。
So we mentioned this problem with napping that even at sort of 25 or 30 minutes of a nap, you wake up with that kind of grogginess, that sleep inertia.
所以我们提到了小睡的问题，即使小睡了 25 或 30 分钟，你也会带着那种昏昏沉沉、睡眠惯性醒来。
And what, however, if I could give you the benefits of a nap and have you come out of the nap with zero sleep inertia?
然而，如果我能让你享受小睡的好处，并且让你在小睡后以零睡眠惯性醒来，又会怎样呢？
And that's what some folks started to cleverly think about.
这就是一些人开始巧妙地思考的问题。
What if I could look at the timing of the optimal nap, maybe 20 minutes, and think about the timing of when peak plasma concentration of caffeine emerges?
如果我可以查看最佳小睡的时间（也许是 20 分钟），并考虑一下咖啡因血浆浓度峰值出现的时间，会怎么样？
And I told you it really starts to kick into gear around 17 minutes, and it's in full swing by 20.
我告诉过你，它在 17 分钟左右就开始发挥作用，到 20 分钟就达到了全速运转。
What if I was creative, I'm going to withhold from saying idiotic enough, but creative enough to get into bed just before I turn the light out for my nap in the afternoon, I swig a quick espresso, light goes off, I close my eyes, eye mask, earplugs, and I'm going to drift off fine because The caffeine is not going to kick in for another 17, 20 minutes, perhaps at its full threshold.
如果我有创意的话，我不会说够白痴，但有足够的创意，在下午关灯小睡之前就上床睡觉，我快速喝了一口浓缩咖啡，灯灭了，我闭上眼睛，戴上眼罩、耳塞，然后我就会睡着了，因为咖啡因在接下来的 17、20 分钟内不会发挥作用，也许是在其完全阈值。
So now you've fallen to sleep and you're going down into sleep, and if you perhaps don't make it too large in terms of its serving, the temperature change is not going to affect you in a negative way.
所以现在你已经睡着了，而且你正在进入睡眠状态，如果你的份量没有做得太大，温度变化不会对你产生负面影响。
And then just as your alarm clock is about to go off after 20 minutes, you're on the beautiful ascending swing of upward plasma concentration of caffeine, and you get ejected out the other side with both the benefits of the nap together with the benefits of the caffeine.
然后，就在 20 分钟后你的闹钟即将响起时，你的血浆咖啡因浓度正处于美丽的上升趋势中，你会被从另一边弹出，同时享受小睡和咖啡因的好处。
So you get your cake and you can eat it too.
所以你得到了你的蛋糕，你也可以吃它。
You get the nap absent the sleep inertia, and hence this created what we call the caffeine nap.
你会在没有睡眠惯性的情况下小睡，因此这就产生了我们所说的咖啡因小睡。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love it.
我喜欢它。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Or the nappuccino.
或者纳布奇诺。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The nappuccino.
纳布奇诺。
Maybe I'll give it a try.
也许我会尝试一下。
This is the first time I've ever heard the rationale and the fine structure of the nappuccino, but it makes sense at a logical and mechanistic level.
这是我第一次听说纳布奇诺的基本原理和精细结构，但它在逻辑和机械层面上是有道理的。
I have to ask, is there anything besides caffeine and sleep that can clear adenosine?
我想问，除了咖啡因和睡眠，还有什么东西可以清除腺苷吗？
Can exercise clear adenosine?
运动可以清除腺苷吗？
Can a cold shower clear adenosine?
洗冷水澡可以清除腺苷吗？
And I understand that there are a bunch of competing mechanisms in the body, like presumably a spike in norepinephrine or adrenaline, or both, is going to impact the adenosine system.
我知道体内有很多相互竞争的机制，比如去甲肾上腺素或肾上腺素或两者的激增，可能会影响腺苷系统。
I once heard a great quote from a former member of the National Academy of Sciences, a brilliant guy.
我曾经听过一位美国国家科学院前院士的一句精彩的话，他是一位才华横溢的人。
He said, "A drug is a substance that when injected into an animal or a human produces a scientific publication." Meaning it is rare to find a paper that doesn't see some effect of some drug, especially on sleep, I'm told.
他说：“药物是一种注射到动物或人类体内时产生科学出版物的物质。”有人告诉我，这意味着很少有一篇论文没有看到某些药物的某些影响，尤其是对睡眠的影响。
As I recall, if you put aspirin REM sleep into PubMed, you're going to see some effect on REM sleep from people who take aspirin.
我记得，如果你把阿司匹林的快速眼动睡眠纳入 PubMed，你会发现服用阿司匹林的人对快速眼动睡眠有一些影响。
Pretty much any substance that one takes is going to alter some feature of sleep or of wakeful states if one is looking with a fine enough instrument.
如果一个人用足够好的仪器观察的话，几乎任何物质都会改变睡眠或清醒状态的某些特征。
Or is that an overstatement?
或者说这是夸大其辞？
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
No, I don't think it is an overstatement, and it comes back to the first episode where we described the complexity, this incredible, beautiful physiological ballet.
不，我不认为这是夸大其词，这又回到了第一集，我们描述了这部令人难以置信的、美丽的生理芭蕾的复杂性。
Certainly, one of the recommendations when people say, "I get this afternoon, this postprandial drop in my alertness.
当然，当人们说“我今天下午餐后警觉性下降”时，建议之一就是这样。
What can I do?" I can say you could nap.
我能做什么？”我可以说你可以小睡一下。
But another way is just get outside and walk around, be physically active.
但另一种方法是到外面走动，锻炼身体。
Some of that has to do with the fact that you'll probably get some daylight, and daylight can be a stimulator of alertness as long you've told us and educated us on.
其中一些与以下事实有关：您可能会得到一些日光，只要您告诉我们并教育了我们，日光就可以刺激我们的警觉性。
We also know that physical activity by itself can increase the amount of endorphins and dynorphins, and those are wake promoting.
我们还知道，体力活动本身可以增加内啡肽和强啡肽的含量，而这些都可以促进清醒。
But none of those are really necessarily going to be altering adenosine.
但这些都不一定会改变腺苷。
They're simply overriding the adenosine that is still building up.
它们只是超越了仍在积累的腺苷。
It really does seem to be, for the most part, at least as all that I know, it's only sleep, and particularly non-REM sleep, that has the capacity to or give the brain the chance to remove that adenosine.
在大多数情况下，至少据我所知，似乎只有睡眠，特别是非快速眼动睡眠，才有能力或给大脑机会去除腺苷。
Now, what could be interesting, I think, is two circumstances.
现在，我认为有趣的是两种情况。
One is where your brain becomes less metabolically active for another reason.
其中之一是您的大脑由于其他原因而代谢不活跃。
And I told you that it's not as though during deep non-REM sleep that there is some special pulsing, cleansing mechanism for adenosine.
我告诉过你，在深度非快速眼动睡眠期间，腺苷并不存在某种特殊的脉冲、清洁机制。
There is a cleansing system called the glymphatic system, which removes the toxic metabolic byproducts of the waking day.
有一种称为类淋巴系统的清洁系统，可以清除清醒时的有毒代谢副产品。
Wakefulness in some ways is biochemically low-level brain damage, and sleep is sanitary salvation in that regard.
在某些方面，清醒在生物化学上是低水平的脑损伤，而睡眠在这方面是卫生的拯救。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I knew it.
我知道。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Which is, again, it's hubristic and it's going too far, but it makes a point.
这又是一种傲慢和过分的说法，但它确实有道理。
The idea here, however, is that it's not that there is a special system that is removing the adenosine during deep non-REM sleep.
然而，这里的想法是，并不是有一个特殊的系统可以在深度非快速眼动睡眠期间去除腺苷。
It's just that your brain is less metabolically active, and therefore it's not producing as much adenosine.
只是您的大脑代谢活性较低，因此不会产生那么多的腺苷。
So the natural mechanisms that are always occurring in the background to be clearing adenosine and degrading it simply get the chance to do that just as effectively as they have, but you're no longer working against the opposite tide that is growing the adenosine.
因此，总是在后台发生的清除腺苷并降解它的自然机制只是有机会像它们一样有效地做到这一点，但你不再与腺苷生长的相反趋势相反。
Now, the adenosine increase has dissipated because you're no longer metabolically active during deep sleep, and you get the chance to cleanse it.
现在，腺苷的增加已经消失，因为您在深度睡眠期间不再处于代谢活跃状态，并且您有机会净化它。
All of which is to say, therefore, that anything that would mimic that, such as, for example, anesthesia, my guess is that you probably do jettison some sleep pressure when you are in anesthesia.
因此，所有这些都是说，任何模仿这种情况的东西，例如麻醉，我的猜测是，当你处于麻醉状态时，你可能会放弃一些睡眠压力。
I also think that these liminal states, non-sleep deep rest could be a fascinating territory there, because at that point, I'm going to guess and we'll be able to see with the EEG, and we may also be able to do some imaging depending on how you and I design the study to look at what changes in the brain in terms of its activation state.
我还认为，这些阈值状态，非睡眠深度休息可能是一个令人着迷的领域，因为在这一点上，我将猜测，我们将能够通过脑电图看到，我们也可能能够进行一些成像，具体取决于你和我如何设计研究，以观察大脑在激活状态方面的变化。
My guess is that if it does put you into something like slow wave activity patterns, that means that those territories of the brain are metabolically less active, and that allows the brain to dissipate the adenosine.
我的猜测是，如果它确实让你进入慢波活动模式，那就意味着大脑的这些区域在新陈代谢上不太活跃，这使得大脑能够耗散腺苷。
So to your point, I don't think things like necessarily exercise or light change adenosine levels.
所以就你的观点而言，我认为运动或光照不一定会改变腺苷水平。
They do give a nice alertness benefit for other reasons.
由于其他原因，它们确实能带来很好的警觉性好处。
But is there an alternative way of dissipating adenosine?
但有没有其他方法可以消除腺苷呢？
Yes, I think anything that mimics a non or a less metabolically active brain could produce these beautiful adenosine benefits.
是的，我认为任何模仿代谢不活跃或代谢不活跃的大脑的东西都可以产生这些美丽的腺苷益处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for that.
谢谢你。
This brings me to a question about the period immediately after waking From the nightly bout of sleep.
这让我想到了一个关于从夜间睡眠中醒来后的那段时间的问题。
I've been touting the benefits of delaying one's caffeine intake by 90 to 120 minutes after waking.
我一直在宣扬起床后推迟 90 到 120 分钟摄入咖啡因的好处。
There's a little bit of a misconception out there.
那里有一点误解。
I think people ran with the ball assuming that I was mandating this or suggesting that everyone should do this, and that's simply not the case.
我认为人们会认为我是在强制这样做或建议每个人都应该这样做，但事实并非如此。
I actually wake up and I'll hydrate and drink caffeine very close to waking if I'm going to exercise soon after.
事实上，我醒来后，如果我很快就要锻炼的话，我会在醒来前补充水分并喝咖啡因。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which I often do.
我经常这样做。
But I've experienced, and I know others have experienced, if they are not going to exercise immediately or they don't need caffeine to exercise for whatever reason.
但我经历过，而且我知道其他人也经历过，如果他们不打算立即锻炼，或者出于某种原因不需要咖啡因来锻炼。
I've heard these people exist.
我听说过这些人的存在。
I'm no such mutant.
我不是这样的变种人。
That delaying their caffeine intake by 90 to 120 minutes, in some cases, can offset the afternoon crash.
在某些情况下，推迟 90 到 120 分钟摄入咖啡因可以抵消下午的崩溃。
Now, I want to be clear, some of that may be offsetting the afternoon consumption of more caffeine, because by delaying your caffeine intake in the morning, then perhaps there's less of an incentive or requirement to drink caffeine in the afternoon, and all of which dominoes to, as we'll talk about more in this series, to better sleep at night because you're not ingesting caffeine close to bedtime.
现在，我想澄清的是，其中一些可能会抵消下午摄入更多的咖啡因，因为通过推迟早上的咖啡因摄入量，那么下午喝咖啡因的动机或要求可能会减少，所有这些多米诺骨牌都会使晚上睡得更好，因为您不会在接近睡觉前摄入咖啡因，正如我们将在本系列中详细讨论的那样。
But at risk of taking a massive tangent, here's what I'd like to know based on what you just told us.
但冒着偏离主题的风险，根据您刚才告诉我们的内容，我想了解以下内容。
If indeed sleep and lower metabolic activity in certain brain regions can help reduce adenosine levels in the brain, one could imagine that upon waking, it is either a step function from, okay, let's say at 5:45 a.m.
如果睡眠和某些大脑区域较低的代谢活动确实有助于降低大脑中的腺苷水平，那么我们可以想象，醒来后，它要么是从凌晨 5:45 开始的阶跃函数，
somebody is asleep and adenosine is still being cleared away because they're asleep, and then they wake up.
有人睡着了，腺苷仍在被清除，因为他们睡着了，然后他们就醒了。
Boom, does adenosine clearance immediately stop?
繁荣，腺苷清除立即停止吗？
Well, for people who have that crumpled face grogginess and they wake up at 5:45, maybe even by way of alarm, although we don't suggest that, right?
好吧，对于那些满脸皱纹、昏昏沉沉的人来说，他们会在 5 点 45 分醒来，甚至可能是通过闹钟的方式醒来，尽管我们不建议这样做，对吗？
And they stagger into the kitchen and ordinarily they'd make their cup of coffee, but they're in a pseudo-sleep state.
他们摇摇晃晃地走进厨房，通常他们会煮一杯咖啡，但他们处于伪睡眠状态。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it stands to reason that they're still clearing adenosine.
所以按理说他们仍在清除腺苷。
Now, if they are to drink caffeine right away, then they're, as you pointed out, going to block those adenosine receptors and there's going to be a continued buildup of adenosine as opposed to a clearance of adenosine.
现在，如果他们立即喝咖啡因，那么正如您所指出的，他们将阻断这些腺苷受体，并且腺苷将持续积累，而不是腺苷被清除。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So this was part, not the entire reason, but part of the rationale for suggesting that people at least explore delaying caffeine slightly.
所以这是部分原因，不是全部原因，但只是建议人们至少尝试稍微推迟摄入咖啡因的部分理由。
And then there are things like the cortisol rise and et cetera.
然后还有皮质醇升高等问题。
But does that kind of framework at least make logical sense?
但这种框架至少具有逻辑意义吗？
That doesn't mean it would hold up in a randomized controlled trial, but given that we're talking about essentially zero-risk protocols here, what are your thoughts on that?
这并不意味着它会在随机对照试验中成立，但考虑到我们在这里讨论的是本质上零风险的方案，您对此有何看法？
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
I think it is good advice for people to test, and it's good advice for two reasons.
我认为这对人们进行测试是一个很好的建议，这个建议有两个原因。
The first is that which you describe.
第一个是你所描述的。
In some ways, by taking caffeine on early and masking that adenosine.
在某些方面，通过尽早摄入咖啡因并掩盖腺苷。
Also, caffeine can make your brain more metabolically active, which means that you're going to build up more adenosine during the day, which means that sleepiness is going to arrive earlier, which means that perhaps that postprandial drop is going to be harsher, and you're going to perhaps then need to self-medicate with more caffeine to, and so goes the vicious cycle.
此外，咖啡因可以使你的大脑代谢更加活跃，这意味着你会在白天产生更多的腺苷，这意味着睡意会更早到来，这意味着餐后的下降可能会更严重，然后你可能需要用更多的咖啡因进行自我治疗，如此恶性循环。
So I think that's one thing to keep in mind.
所以我认为这是需要记住的一件事。
I think that's one hypothesis.
我认为这是一个假设。
I think the second hypothesis for me, or the second reason I would advocate for that is if you've been using caffeine that way for a long period of time, you may also be masking the quality of your sleep.
我认为对我来说第二个假设，或者我主张的第二个原因是，如果你长期以这种方式使用咖啡因，你也可能会掩盖你的睡眠质量。
Because you wake up, you immediately medicate with caffeine, and you are alert, you're awake, and you think, "Well, looking back on my night, I'm awake now after my caffeine." And now is the important part of that sentence.
因为你醒来后，你立即服用咖啡因药物，你很警觉，你醒了，你会想，“嗯，回顾我的夜晚，在喝了咖啡因后我现在醒了。”现在是这句话的重要部分。
I'm awake now, so there's nothing wrong with my sleep.
我现在已经醒了，所以我的睡眠没有任何问题。
Is that true?
这是真的吗？
Maybe it is, maybe it's not.
也许是，也许不是。
Maybe if you abstain from caffeine through, and you have to get through the detox period.
也许如果你戒掉咖啡因，你就必须度过排毒期。
This is not the right test immediately.
这不是立即正确的测试。
But do it for about two weeks, and then at that point, once you're free from the detox and the withdrawal, now you're in a somewhat naive state where you're taking your caffeine on.
但这样做大约两周，然后，一旦你摆脱了排毒和戒断，现在你就处于一种有点天真的状态，你正在服用咖啡因。
I'm not telling you to stop caffeine.
我不是在告诉你停止摄入咖啡因。
You're taking it on at 11:00 after you've woken up at, let's say, 7:00 in the morning.
比方说，早上 7:00 起床后，您将在 11:00 接受它。
At that point, we've now got this nice clear window that has been consistently happening between 7:00 to 11:00 in the morning, and I'm going to ask you now, do you feel rested, restored, and refreshed, and can you operate with cognitive acumen and skill in those first morning hours?
到那时，我们现在就得到了这个在早上 7:00 到 11:00 之间持续发生的清晰窗口，我现在要问你，你是否感到休息、恢复和精神焕发，并且你能在早上的第一个小时内以认知敏锐度和技巧进行操作吗？
Now, don't forget, we've got to get past the natural sleep inertia period in the first 90 minutes.
现在，不要忘记，我们必须克服前 90 分钟的自然睡眠惯性期。
But after the first 90 minutes of waking up, absent of caffeine, let's say by 9:00 a.m.
但在起床后的前 90 分钟内，没有摄入咖啡因，假设在上午 9:00 之前。
in the morning, are you functioning well?
早上起来，你的身体还好吗？
Because if you're not and you still think, "Do you know what?
因为如果你不知道，但你仍然会想，“你知道吗？
I don't feel restored by my sleep.
我感觉睡眠并没有让我恢复元气。
I feel unrefreshed." I want to then start asking you, let's take a look at your sleep and let's see how we can get you to a more refreshed state.
我感觉精神不振。”然后我想开始问你，让我们看看你的睡眠情况，看看如何才能让你进入一个更精神焕发的状态。
And by using caffeine first thing in the morning, you don't give yourself the chance to test whether or not subjectively you sense your sleep is good quality.
如果早上第一件事就是喝咖啡，你就没有机会测试自己主观上是否感觉自己的睡眠质量良好。
Now, you don't need to do this forever.
现在，您不需要永远这样做。
You can just do a test for a month and be asking that question, and if all is clear after you've got through withdrawal and you've got past the first 90 minutes after waking up and you tell me, now in this more caffeine naive state in the first few hours, I feel rest, I feel refreshed, I feel restored by my sleep, then that's great.
你可以做一个月的测试，然后问这个问题，如果在你完成戒断后一切都清楚了，并且你已经过了醒来后的前 90 分钟，你告诉我，现在在最初的几个小时内处于这种更无咖啡因的状态，我感到休息，我感到精神焕发，我感觉通过睡眠恢复了，那就太好了。
We don't need to be concerned about your sleep.
我们不需要担心您的睡眠。
So that's the second reason I like it, because it gives you the opportunity to test out whether or not your sleep is of good quality or not.
这是我喜欢它的第二个原因，因为它让你有机会测试你的睡眠质量是否良好。
I should also note, by the way, that I mentioned I've changed my mind on caffeine and its use, and this comes back to, I just raise it because you had said I made this suggestion, and it wasn't binary, it wasn't dictatorial.
顺便说一句，我还应该指出，我提到我已经改变了对咖啡因及其用途的看法，这又回到了，我只是提出它，因为你说过我提出了这个建议，它不是二元的，它不是独裁的。
You don't have to do it.
你不必这样做。
I wasn't saying that everyone needs to do it.
我并不是说每个人都需要这样做。
And in fact, even I will tweak my schedule.
事实上，即使是我也会调整我的日程安排。
If I'm doing one thing in the morning, I will take on board caffeine fairly soon.
如果我早上做一件事，我很快就会摄入咖啡因。
If I'm not, I will hold off.
如果不是的话，我会推迟。
I came out the gate when I first published a book, and I was very dictatorial about it, and I was very monois.
当我第一次出版一本书时，我对此非常独裁，而且我非常单一。
I was very binary.
我是非常二元的。
It was sleep is absolute, and it has to be this way and no other way.
睡眠是绝对的，必须如此，别无他法。
I was not in favor of caffeine, and I was telling people about the dangers, and there are dangers to your sleep, and we can speak about those, but it was a little bit too heavy-handed.
我不赞成咖啡因，我告诉人们咖啡因的危险，对你的睡眠有危险，我们可以谈论这些，但这有点太严厉了。
I've changed my mind for at least two reasons.
我改变主意至少有两个原因。
First, that's not the way society works or people live.
首先，这不是社会运作或人们生活方式的方式。
So there's no amount, just like technology and saying, "Leave your phone outside of the room for two hours before bed and don't check it for the first four hours." That genie is out of the bottle.
所以没有数量，就像技术一样，说“睡前把手机放在房间外面两个小时，前四个小时不要查看它”。那个精灵已经从瓶子里出来了。
So the reason I have changed my mind on caffeine is because if you look at the data on caffeine, it's stunning for health.
所以我改变对咖啡因的看法的原因是因为如果你看一下咖啡因的数据，你会发现它对健康有惊人的好处。
On almost every metric that we can measure, drinking some degree of caffeine is beneficial.
在我们可以衡量的几乎所有指标中，饮用一定程度的咖啡因都是有益的。
Now, there is a-
现在，有一个——
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
I knew it
我知道
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
...
...
there is a U-shaped function to this, which is once you get past three or four cups of coffee, then you start to go in the downward direction and things aren't so great.
这有一个U形函数，一旦你喝了三四杯咖啡，你就会开始走下坡路，事情就不太好了。
The contradiction, however, was that I was telling people caffeine, not good for your sleep, and sleep, by the way, is wonderful for health.
然而，矛盾的是，我告诉人们咖啡因对睡眠不利，顺便说一句，睡眠对健康非常有益。
It transacts all of these benefits that we have and will discuss in this series.
它具有我们拥有并将在本系列中讨论的所有这些好处。
But then you compare that relative to caffeine, and caffeine transacts many of the same health benefits.
但如果你将其与咖啡因进行比较，就会发现咖啡因具有许多相同的健康益处。
So how can you explain that, Mr. Sleep Scientist?
那么，睡眠科学家先生，您如何解释这一点呢？
Well, if you look, the data is very clear.
嗯，你看一下，数据就很清楚了。
It's not the caffeine that's the benefit.
好处不是咖啡因。
Most people take on board caffeine by way of a cup of coffee.
大多数人通过一杯咖啡摄入咖啡因。
And the coffee bean is packed full not just of caffeine, it contains a whopping dose of antioxidants.
咖啡豆不仅富含咖啡因，还含有大量的抗氧化剂。
And because of our deficient Western diets, we're so absent of these antioxidants that the humble cup of coffee has been asked to carry the Herculean weight of our antioxidant needs on its shoulders.
由于西方饮食的不足，我们非常缺乏这些抗氧化剂，以至于一杯不起眼的咖啡就被要求承担我们抗氧化剂需求的巨大负担。
So no wonder it, by itself, carries such a strong health signal because it's providing you with this wonderful dose of antioxidants in addition to caffeine.
因此，难怪它本身就带有如此强烈的健康信号，因为除了咖啡因之外，它还为您提供了极好的抗氧化剂剂量。
Case in point, if you look at decaffeinated coffee, you still get the antioxidants, but now you don't get the caffeine, and lo and behold, you get many of the same health benefits.
举个例子，如果你看一下不含咖啡因的咖啡，你仍然会得到抗氧化剂，但现在你不会得到咖啡因，你瞧，你会得到许多相同的健康益处。
It's not the caffeine, it's the coffee itself.
这不是咖啡因，而是咖啡本身。
So I think that is a perfectly good reason to justify caffeine.
所以我认为这是证明咖啡因合理性的一个很好的理由。
But again, just like naps, the dose and the timing make the poison.
但同样，就像小睡一样，剂量和时间也会产生毒药。
If you're not someone who's sensitive to caffeine, then having a couple of cups of caffeine and trying to step away from the use of caffeine, I would argue somewhere between 10 to 12 hours before you expect to go to bed, depending on your sensitivity.
如果您不是对咖啡因敏感的人，那么喝几杯咖啡因并尝试停止使用咖啡因，我建议您在睡觉前 10 到 12 小时之间喝几杯咖啡因，具体取决于您的敏感度。
And it is different across people, and we know that it's genetic.
人与人之间的情况是不同的，我们知道这是遗传的。
There is a specific, what we call polymorphism, which just means a variation in a particular gene.
有一种特定的，我们称之为多态性，它只意味着特定基因的变异。
And if you look at variations in that, it will predict whether you are someone who is very sensitive to caffeine or not very sensitive to caffeine.
如果你观察其中的变化，它就会预测你是对咖啡因非常敏感还是对咖啡因不太敏感。
And it comes down to how quickly you can essentially metabolically remove that caffeine from the system.
这取决于你能以多快的速度基本上通过代谢从系统中去除咖啡因。
So if you know that you're a very sensitive person, I would probably argue, try to steer clear maybe 12 to 14 hours.
因此，如果您知道自己是一个非常敏感的人，我可能会认为，请尽量避开 12 到 14 小时。
If you're someone who is not as sensitive, then you could maybe go to eight hours.
如果你不是那么敏感的人，那么你也许可以延长八小时。
The danger is for people who say, "Look, I'm one of those people who is really just not sensitive to caffeine at all, and I can have an espresso with dinner, and I fall asleep fine.
对于那些说“看，我是那些对咖啡因根本不敏感的人之一，我可以在晚餐时喝一杯浓缩咖啡，然后睡得很好”的人来说，这是危险的。
I stay asleep fine.
我睡得很好。
So it's really not a problem for me." I would say that that may be true, but the inherent danger here is that when we've done these studies, if I give you a dose of, let's say, 200, 300, 400 milligrams of caffeine in the hours before bed, which would be a large, strong cup of coffee or two espressos with dinner, some people can fall asleep and some people stay asleep.
所以这对我来说真的不是问题。”我想说这可能是真的，但这里固有的危险是，当我们完成这些研究时，如果我在睡前几个小时给你一剂，比方说，200、300、400毫克咖啡因，这将是一大杯浓咖啡或晚餐时喝两杯浓缩咖啡，有些人可以入睡，有些人可以保持睡眠状态。
But the amount of deep sleep that they have is compromised.
但他们的深度睡眠时间却受到了影响。
In fact, it can drop your deep sleep by up to 20%.
事实上，它会使您的深度睡眠减少高达 20%。
Now, the danger is that you wake up in the morning and there is no signals in your sleep that said you had problematic sleep because you're not aware of how much deep sleep that you had.
现在，危险在于，您早上醒来，睡眠中没有任何信号表明您睡眠有问题，因为您不知道自己睡了多少深度睡眠。
That's the reason that I think sleep trackers can be helpful in some ways.
这就是我认为睡眠追踪器在某些方面有帮助的原因。
But you then wake up, and you don't feel as refreshed and restored, but you don't remember having a hard time falling asleep or staying asleep.
但当你醒来时，你并没有感到神清气爽和恢复活力，但你不记得很难入睡或保持睡眠状态。
But now you find yourself reaching for three cups of coffee to wake up in the morning rather than the standard two, and so goes the vicious cycle.
但现在你发现自己早上起床时喝的是三杯咖啡，而不是标准的两杯，恶性循环就这样开始了。
And also, you see an interesting interrelationship.
而且，你会看到一种有趣的相互关系。
We did a recent study we just published in Wall Street Traders.
我们最近做了一项研究，刚刚发表在《华尔街交易者》杂志上。
It's not just caffeine use, it's also about alcohol use in the evening, that people who overmedicate with caffeine during the day, they then need something to bring them down at night, and the principal depressant agent, and depressant not in the sense of ...
这不仅仅是咖啡因的使用，还与晚上的酒精使用有关，白天过量服用咖啡因的人，他们在晚上需要一些东西来降低他们的情绪，而主要的镇静剂，而不是某种意义上的镇静剂......
psychiatric depression, but in the sense of brain neural activity depression, is alcohol.
精神抑郁症，但从大脑神经活动抑郁的意义上来说，就是酒精。
So you get this classic cycle of uppers and downers.
这样你就得到了这个经典的上部和下部循环。
I need my uppers during the morning, my caffeine, and I need my downers at night to lull me into sleep.
早上我需要鞋面和咖啡因，晚上我需要镇定剂来让我入睡。
And it's this really interesting trade-off, which we saw in these Wall Street traders.
我们在这些华尔街交易员身上看到了这种非常有趣的权衡。
So coming back to the notion of caffeine, though, I am favorable of it in terms of its health benefits.
回到咖啡因的概念，我赞成它对健康的益处。
I think it's very, very clear.
我认为这非常非常清楚。
Just be mindful of the dose and be mindful of the timing.
只要注意剂量并注意时间即可。
Dose, try to not exceed about three cups of coffee.
剂量上，尽量不要超过三杯左右的咖啡。
Timing, understand your sensitivity.
时机，了解你的敏感度。
There are certain genetic tests if you really want to get nerdy that will tell you if you have this sensitivity or not, but you will probably know it, and therefore just say, "Okay, I'm not that sensitive.
如果你真的想变得书呆子，有一些基因测试会告诉你是否有这种敏感性，但你可能会知道它，因此只需说，“好吧，我没那么敏感。
I could probably go eight hours, or as close as eight hours before sleep, or 10 hours." If you're very sensitive, 14, 15 hours, and keep it to one cup.
我可能可以睡八个小时，或者睡前八个小时，或者十个小时。”如果你非常敏感，14、15小时，并保持在一杯。
So those are the ways that I would see moderating caffeine and changing my mind on caffeine, which just comes back to your point where you were saying, "Look, I made this recommendation about caffeine.
所以这些就是我看到的调节咖啡因和改变我对咖啡因的想法的方法，这又回到了你刚才说的观点，“看，我提出了关于咖啡因的建议。
I want to make sure I modify that so people don't get confused." I certainly needed to make a modification to my stance on caffeine.
我想确保我修改了它，这样人们就不会感到困惑。”我当然需要改变我对咖啡因的立场。
So thank you for letting me say that, which is a long-winded way of getting around it, but does that help a little bit?
谢谢你让我这么说，这是一个绕开这个问题的冗长方法，但这有一点帮助吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That does help it very much.
这确实有很大帮助。
Thank you for that addendum to the legislature.
感谢立法机关的补充。
Okay, so you told us about the power nap, and you've told us about the caffeine nap, the so-called nappuccino.
好的，你告诉我们关于能量小睡的事情，你也告诉我们关于咖啡因小睡的事情，即所谓的纳布奇诺。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What are some other types of naps that can be beneficial for sleep-wake cycles and alertness?
还有哪些其他类型的小睡可以有益于睡眠-觉醒周期和警觉性？
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
So you can think about the caffeine nap as trying to amplify it as sort of a nap plus, as it were.
因此，你可以将咖啡因小睡视为试图将其增强，就像小睡一样。
But to your question, the study that comes to mind, there was a brilliant investigation, Herculean in its study design, from a great sleep research group out in Japan.
但对于你的问题，我想到的研究是，日本一个伟大的睡眠研究小组进行了一项出色的研究，其研究设计非常艰巨。
And they asked, "Okay, the nap is good.
他们问道：“好吧，午睡很好。
The caffeine nap may be a little bit better, but can we go further?" And so they designed a series of studies.
咖啡因小睡可能会好一点，但我们能更进一步吗？”因此他们设计了一系列研究。
They had five different experimental groups, and they tried to basically create a stack, a stacking system.
他们有五个不同的实验组，他们试图基本上创建一个堆栈，一个堆栈系统。
They had, across the five groups, there was a no nap group, that's the control, then there was a nap group, then there was a nap plus caffeine group, then there was a nap plus cold face and cold hand washing immediately after you wake up.
他们在五组中，有一个不午睡组，这是对照组，然后是午睡组，然后是午睡加咖啡因组，然后是午睡加上醒来后立即冷脸和冷洗手。
And I'll come back to explain why we think that works.
我会回来解释为什么我们认为这是有效的。
And then the final group was a group that was a nap plus bright light.
然后最后一组是午睡加强光的一组。
And again, thank you, me offering this as the general public to you, Andrew Huberman, for your light revolution.
再次感谢您，我以公众的名义向您，安德鲁·胡伯曼，感谢您的光革命。
So it was bright light at 2,000 lux immediately afterwards.
所以紧接着就出现了 2,000 lux 的明亮光线。
So they had five groups.
所以他们有五个小组。
Again, there was no nap group, nap group, nap plus caffeine, nap plus cold hands and face washing, nap plus immediate bright light.
再次，没有午睡组，午睡组，午睡加咖啡因，午睡加冷手洗脸，午睡加立即强光。
The cold hands and face washing is interesting.
冰冷的手和洗脸很有趣。
I told you before that there was this three-part story to the sleep-wake equation, that you need to warm up to cool down to fall asleep, stay cool to stay asleep, warm up to wake up.
我之前告诉过你，睡眠-觉醒方程式有一个由三部分组成的故事，你需要热身才能冷静下来才能入睡，保持冷静才能保持睡眠状态，热身才能醒来。
And I'm saying warm up to wake up, but use cold water on your face and your hands.
我说的是要热身才能醒来，但要用冷水洗脸和手。
Don't forget that warming up when I say it in the morning is warming up at the central core of your body.
不要忘记，当我早上说的热身是在你身体的中央核心热身。
You reverse engineer what you did in the evening.
你对晚上所做的事情进行逆向工程。
I said warm up to cool down to fall asleep.
我说热身，降温，入睡。
So you warm up the periphery to release the blood from the core, and you cool down.
因此，你会加热外围以释放核心的血液，然后你就会冷却下来。
Well, the reason that they use cold hand and face washing was because that's this vascular surface.
嗯，他们使用冷手和洗脸的原因是因为那是血管表面。
It's the place where we can modulate temperature quite quickly.
这是我们可以快速调节温度的地方。
The cold water on the face and the hands therefore caused vasoconstriction.
因此，脸和手上的冷水会引起血管收缩。
The vessels and the capillaries there , they all scrunched up, and they forced the blood back down into the core of the body, so the core body temperature increased a little bit.
那里的血管、毛细血管，全都皱了起来，迫使血液流回身体核心，所以核心体温就升高了一些。
Now you also get a bit of an adrenaline shot when you're splashing very cold water on your hands and your face, so there's some of that too.
现在，当您将非常冷的水泼在手和脸上时，您也会感受到一点肾上腺素，所以也有一些。
But that's the justification.
但这就是理由。
So what'd they find?
那么他们发现了什么？
Firstly, they were measuring different aspects of your cognition and your mood and your sleepiness.
首先，他们测量您认知、情绪和睡意的不同方面。
Those were the outcome measures to assess how did these five different experimental groups change.
这些是评估这五个不同实验组如何变化的结果指标。
And you can imagine, I don't think I would ever take on a study where I'm doing five nap groups all within one study.
你可以想象，我认为我不会接受一项研究，在一项研究中我要进行五个小睡组。
It's bloody amazing.
真是太神奇了。
So they did the no nap group, and then compared to the no nap group, the nap group got a wonderful benefit, just as we described, and they showed benefits in their alertness, in their cognitive performance, and also they showed a reduction in their sleepiness.
所以他们做了不午睡组，然后与不午睡组相比，午睡组获得了巨大的好处，正如我们所描述的，他们在警觉性和认知表现方面表现出优势，而且他们的困倦也有所减少。
So point number one on the scoreboard for a nap.
因此，记分牌上的第一点是小睡。
Then they did the nap plus the caffeine.
然后他们小睡了一下，还喝了咖啡因。
And sure enough, you got an added benefit to that which you already obtained from the nap.
果然，除了小睡之外，你还得到了额外的好处。
Now, it was nowhere near as sizable as the benefit from the nap, so the addition of caffeine does give you some nice benefits, and I've used this before when I've worked with sort of professional athletes.
现在，它远没有小睡带来的好处那么大，所以添加咖啡因确实会给你带来一些好处，我以前在与一些职业运动员一起工作时就使用过它。
We do instigate these caffeine naps when needed.
我们确实会在需要时鼓励这些咖啡因小睡。
So it did give a nice benefit.
所以它确实带来了很好的好处。
But then when they looked at the nap plus cold hand and face washing and the nap plus the bright light, those also added something to the nap benefit.
但当他们看到小睡加上冷手和洗脸以及小睡加上明亮的光线时，这些也增加了小睡的好处。
Now, they didn't do the sixth group, which is really what I'm going to do some hand-waving about, which is the full stack, full fat method, where they said, "Okay, you're going to do nap plus caffeine, plus cold hand and face washing, plus bright light." But if you were to put those together, my thought is that they're probably additive rather than simply just ...
现在，他们没有做第六组，这确实是我要做的，这是全堆栈、全脂肪方法，他们说，“好吧，你要小睡加咖啡因，加上冷手和洗脸，再加上强光。”但如果你把它们放在一起，我的想法是它们可能是相加的，而不仅仅是......
netting each other out, which means that if you really want to not just do a nap or a nap plus, which would be the caffeine nap, but the nap plus plus version, you can lean into this study, and the protocol there would be you get into bed, you have your espresso shot before you turn the light, you swig it, go down, set your alarm for 20 minutes.
这意味着，如果你真的想要不只是小睡或小睡加，也就是咖啡因小睡，而是小睡加加版本，你可以深入研究这项研究，那里的协议是你上床睡觉，在开灯之前喝一杯浓缩咖啡，喝下它，下楼，将闹钟设置 20 分钟。
You wake up, the caffeine is kicking in, you get over the inertia, you go straight out, cold hands, cold face by way of cold water, and then you get immediate daylight for five to 10 minutes outside, and at that point, you're really in a supercharged state.
你醒来，咖啡因开始发挥作用，你克服了惯性，径直出去，手冰凉，脸被冷水冰凉，然后你立即在外面享受五到十分钟的日光，此时，你真的处于一种充满活力的状态。
So that's just because I know there's probably going to be some audience members who are willing to give this a try or who really want to optimize, don't give me what is good, give me the extreme very best.
所以这只是因为我知道可能会有一些观众愿意尝试一下或者真的想要优化，不要给我什么是好的，给我最好的。
That's the only suggestion I would have based on that data.
这是我根据该数据提出的唯一建议。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love it.
我喜欢它。
And actually, what you just described could easily be translocated to the period after waking from the nightly bout of sleep.
事实上，你刚才所描述的情况很容易转移到从夜间睡眠中醒来后的时期。
Although one wouldn't ingest caffeine- ...
虽然人不会摄入咖啡因——...
prior to waking up for obvious reasons.
在出于明显原因醒来之前。
But it would make good sense to me to wake up, obviously get sunlight in one's eyes, splash some cold water on one's face or hands, or get cold shower, cold plunge, caffeine or delay caffeine.
但对我来说，醒来，让阳光照进眼睛，在脸上或手上泼一些冷水，或者洗冷水澡、冷水浴、咖啡因或延迟咖啡因是很有意义的。
It's essentially the same set of tools, and I think it really points to the fact that circadian rhythm, clearance of adenosine, temperature modulation, and of course the way in which these interact, are really the levers and knobs to modulate wakefulness.
它本质上是同一组工具，我认为它确实指出了这样一个事实：昼夜节律、腺苷清除、温度调节，当然还有它们相互作用的方式，实际上是调节觉醒的杠杆和旋钮。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I think we've gone over this notion of naps, but there are ways that you can try to manipulate the nap system still, and there are ways that you can manipulate it even further.
我认为我们已经讨论了小睡的概念，但是您仍然可以尝试操纵小睡系统，并且还有一些方法可以进一步操纵它。
But I like what you're saying because it just comes back to the fundamentals.
但我喜欢你所说的，因为它回到了基本原理。
Let's forego the nap conversation, just go back to the morning routine.
让我们放弃午睡的谈话，回到早上的例行公事吧。
You're absolutely right.
你是绝对正确的。
And think about the cold water and warm water.
并考虑冷水和温水。
My guess is that very few people when they go to bed, they wash their face and their hands maybe.
我的猜测是，很少有人在睡觉时会洗脸和洗手。
They're probably not washing it with cold water before they go to bed.
他们睡觉前可能不会用冷水清洗。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Correct.
正确。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
They're going to be washing it with warm water.
他们会用温水清洗它。
Why don't they do that and they just say, "Well, why would I splash cold water on my face?
为什么他们不这样做，他们只是说：“好吧，我为什么要往脸上泼冷水呢？
It probably wakes me up." Have you ever thought about why it wakes you up?
也许它能叫醒我。”你有没有想过为什么它会叫醒你？
Part of it is the shot of activation, but the other part is thermoregulation, and the opposite is what you want to do.
一部分是激活的镜头，另一部分是体温调节，而相反的就是你想做的事情。
If anything, you want to be warming your hands and your feet, and that's exactly what you've always done.
如果有的话，你想温暖你的手和脚，而这正是你一直在做的。
You've always medicated your sleep onset by using warm water on your face and your hands.
您总是通过用温水洗脸和手来治疗入睡。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Several times during today's discussion, we talked about polyphasic sleep.
在今天的讨论中，我们多次谈到多相睡眠。
And the different types of polyphasic sleep that we covered are, I wouldn't say conventional, but they're conventional-ish.
我们所讨论的不同类型的多相睡眠，我不会说是传统的，但它们是传统的。
What are some of the more esoteric, or let's call them high-performance polyphasic strategies for sleep?
有哪些更深奥的，或者我们称之为高性能多相睡眠策略？
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
So we've spoken about polyphasic sleep in the natural way it occurs, which is during infancy, and sleeping like a baby means that you're sleeping in a highly polyphasic way.
因此，我们已经讨论过多相睡眠的自然发生方式，即婴儿期，而像婴儿一样睡觉意味着您正在以高度多相的方式睡眠。
But probably around about the late 1990s, 2000s, with the emergence of the biohacker movement and the quantified self-movement, there started to become a lot of chatter online about this notion of polyphasic sleep, and here, no longer are we infants, we're now adults, but we're engaging in a pattern that is highly polyphasic.
但大概在 90 年代末、2000 年代左右，随着生物黑客运动和量化自我运动的出现，网上开始有很多关于多相睡眠概念的讨论，在这里，我们不再是婴儿，我们现在是成年人，但我们正在陷入一种高度多相的模式。
Polyphasic sleep, simply by definition again, means that you're having multiple phases of sleep within a 24-hour period, and there are different strategies.
多相睡眠，简单来说，就是指您在 24 小时内经历多个睡眠阶段，并且有不同的策略。
So the way polyphasic sleep in adults works is that you take the 24-hour period and you think about it like a pie chart, and then you start to slice that pie up into these quadrants.
因此，成人多相睡眠的运作方式是，你以 24 小时为周期，将其视为饼图，然后开始将饼分成这些象限。
When it comes to polyphasic sleep, the goal is to put insert multiple phases of sleep around the 24-hour clock rather than one single phase, but the thinness of those slices of the pie are very thin, leaving large, thick slices of wakefulness in between.
当谈到多相睡眠时，我们的目标是在 24 小时内插入多个睡眠阶段，而不是一个单一阶段，但这些部分的厚度非常薄，在中间留下了大而厚的清醒部分。
The notion being that if you were to sort of just intersperse little soupçons of sleep in terms of these little thin slices of sleep, you can increase the amount of time that you're awake, and you can increase all of the benefits of wake.
这个想法是，如果你只是在这些小片睡眠中散布一些小汤，你就可以增加你清醒的时间，并且可以增加清醒的所有好处。
There is a website, I think it's called The Polyphasic Society, and there it's not a scientific society like the psychological, the American Association for Psychology or American Medical Association or British Medical.
有一个网站，我想它叫多相学会，那里不是像心理学会、美国心理学会、美国医学会或英国医学会那样的科学学会。
It's not one of those ratified, certified, scientific or medical, it's just a society that lives online, which is great.
它不是那些被批准、认证、科学或医学的社会之一，它只是一个在线生活的社会，这很棒。
And they make claims to suggest that polyphasic sleep can improve aspects of your mood, it can improve aspects of your productivity, it can maybe even improve aspects of health.
他们声称多相睡眠可以改善您情绪的各个方面，可以提高您的工作效率，甚至可以改善健康的各个方面。
I think sometimes there are claims that it can help with lifespan.
我认为有时有人声称它可以帮助延长寿命。
And there are a number of different schedules that they will describe to you and that you can find out there of polyphasic sleep.
他们会向您描述许多不同的时间表，您可以在那里找到多相睡眠。
The first one that probably people have heard of is called the Uberman schedule, and by the way, there is no H at the start of that, it is simply U.
人们可能听说过的第一个计划称为“Uberman 计划”，顺便说一句，它的开头没有 H，而是简单的 U。
I know it's not this man sitting across from me who has anything to do with this schedule, and after we discuss the data, he will reassert that very same fact.
我知道坐在我对面的这个人与这个时间表没有任何关系，在我们讨论数据之后，他会重申同样的事实。
Then there's something called the Everyman schedule, and then there is the triphasic schedule, and there's lots of different other flavors of this.
然后有一种叫做“普通人时间表”的东西，然后是三相时间表，还有很多不同的其他风格。
The differences between them are in how you split up that pie chart and how much you assign to little thin slices of sleep versus longer periods of wake, and how many of those you insert, but they all follow the same pattern.
它们之间的区别在于您如何分割饼图，以及您分配给小片睡眠与较长时间醒来的比例，以及您插入的数量，但它们都遵循相同的模式。
If you look at the literature, however, it didn't begin with the biohacker movement.
然而，如果你看一下文献，就会发现它并不是从生物黑客运动开始的。
The first description I can find in the human record comes from Time Magazine, an issue in 1943, and they describe the protocol of, at the time, a fantastic, very interesting designer, a guy called Buckminster Fuller.
我在人类记录中找到的第一个描述来自 1943 年的《时代》杂志，其中描述了当时一位出色的、非常有趣的设计师的协议，他是一个名叫巴克敏斯特·富勒的人。
And he created a design principle, and that design principle was called the Dymaxion principle.
他创造了一个设计原则，这个设计原则被称为 Dymaxion 原则。
The Dymaxion principle was principally used initially to build unique building structures, and it uses this notion of different sort of almost spokes that interconnect in a central hub that create a self-supporting structure.
Dymaxion 原理最初主要用于建造独特的建筑结构，它使用了不同类型的几乎辐条的概念，这些辐条在中心枢纽中互连，从而创建了自支撑结构。
The most obvious, have you ever been to one of those geodesic domes?
最明显的是，您去过那些测地圆顶之一吗？
And inside you go in, and it's like a botanical garden, and it's all tropical despite you being in, let's say, being in England and London, and it's beautifully tropical inside of there.
你走进去，它就像一个植物园，尽管你在英格兰和伦敦，但它都是热带的，而且里面充满了美丽的热带风情。
That structure, that sort of lattice structure, that comes in part from his design.
那种结构，那种格子结构，部分来自他的设计。
This was the Dymaxion principle, and he scaled it to different things.
这就是 Dymaxion 原则，他将其扩展到不同的事物。
The Dymaxion car, the Dymaxion house, the Dymaxion dome.
Dymaxion 汽车、Dymaxion 房屋、Dymaxion 圆顶。
Fascinating, but he was no fan of sleep, and he saw sleep as a rather significant waste of time when, just like the rest of his Dymaxion principle, he could be harnessing more efficiency out of the system with less structure, and here less sleep structure inserted into his 24-hour period.
令人着迷，但他并不喜欢睡眠，他认为睡眠是一种相当严重的时间浪费，就像他的 Dymaxion 原则的其余部分一样，他可以通过更少的结构来利用系统的更高效率，在这里，在他的 24 小时周期中插入更少的睡眠结构。
So he was the first one to describe his schedule, and it was called the Dymaxion schedule of polyphasic sleep.
所以他是第一个描述他的时间表的人，它被称为多相睡眠的 Dymaxion 时间表。
So it may have been a practice earlier in the record, but that's the earliest one I can find.
所以这可能是记录中较早的一种做法，但这是我能找到的最早的一种做法。
So let's come back to the claims of polyphasic sleep, that it could improve, let's say, your mood or your cognition or your productivity or your health.
那么，让我们回到多相睡眠的主张上来，它可以改善你的情绪、你的认知、你的生产力或你的健康。
A group of scientists at Harvard, some of my old colleagues from Harvard, they looked at all of the literature on all of the studies that were polyphasic-like or testing this claim.
哈佛大学的一群科学家，我在哈佛大学的一些老同事，他们查阅了所有有关多相性或测试这一主张的研究的所有文献。
And the first thing that they found was to their claims of improved cognition, productivity, mood, as well as health, they found no supportive evidence that polyphasic sleep was helpful.
他们发现的第一件事是，对于他们声称的改善认知、生产力、情绪和健康的说法，他们没有发现任何支持性证据表明多相睡眠有帮助。
Then they turned the tables, and they said, "Well, could it be hurtful?" And in fact, that's exactly what they found.
然后他们扭转了局面，他们说：“嗯，这会造成伤害吗？”事实上，这正是他们的发现。
Firstly, the total amount of sleep that you get on any one of those schedules is decreased significantly.
首先，您在任何一个时间表中获得的睡眠总量都会显着减少。
Now, of course, that's the goal.
当然，现在这就是目标。
The quality of sleep that you get, though, is miserable.
然而，你的睡眠质量却很糟糕。
Your sleep efficiency, even when you're having these short periods of time, especially during the waking hours, is very poor.
即使您的睡眠时间很短，尤其是在醒着的时候，您的睡眠效率也很差。
It's not a type of even short sleep that you would wish for.
这不是您所希望的一种甚至短暂的睡眠。
Third, they found that it would reduce your REM sleep amount.
第三，他们发现这会减少你的快速眼动睡眠时间。
So that was the first set of findings.
这就是第一组发现。
Your sleep is no better.
你的睡眠也好不到哪儿去。
If anything, it's significantly worse.
如果说有什么不同的话，那就是情况更糟了。
And then they started to find that there were significant impairments in many of those things, impairments in cognition, in judgment-making and decision-making, impairments in mood, and some aspects of impairments in metabolic health, particularly glucose regulation.
然后他们开始发现其中许多方面都存在显着的损害，认知、判断和决策的损害，情绪的损害，以及代谢健康的某些方面的损害，特别是葡萄糖调节。
So when it comes to polyphasic sleep, sleeping like a baby if you're an adult seems to be a rather unwise piece of advice.
因此，当谈到多相睡眠时，如果你是成年人，像婴儿一样睡觉似乎是一个相当不明智的建议。
Now-
现在——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it probably goes along with eating baby food, drinking breast milk, and having somebody else clothe and change you as an adult.
是的，这可能与吃婴儿食品、喝母乳、让别人给你穿衣服和换衣服等成年后的生活有关。
It's probably not advisable.
这可能是不可取的。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
It doesn't seem to be at least supported by the data.
看来至少没有数据支持。
And again, I want to be so careful here, and you're very careful, too.
再说一次，我想在这里非常小心，你也非常小心。
I'm not here to necessarily tell anyone absolutely how to live their life.
我来这里并不是为了绝对告诉任何人如何生活。
I'm just a scientist, and all I can do is give you the information, just as you do, and then it's up to you to make the best decisions that you wish to make.
我只是一名科学家，我所能做的就是向你提供信息，就像你一样，然后由你做出你想要做出的最佳决定。
All I would say is that I would hope that as long as you're not hurting yourself and harming your health, and you're not hurting other people, and it makes you happy, then I say whatever it is in life, good luck.
我想说的是，我希望只要你不伤害自己，不损害你的健康，也不伤害别人，并且这会让你快乐，那么我说，无论生活中发生什么，祝你好运。
I embrace it.
我拥抱它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I always say, do as you wish, but know what you're doing.
我总是说，做你想做的事，但要知道你在做什么。
And don't hurt yourself or anybody else.
并且不要伤害自己或其他人。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Can you get me that T-shirt, and I will wear it five days through Tuesday?
你能给我那件 T 恤吗？我会穿它直到星期二五天？
So here in this regard, though, I would say the evidence would suggest that maybe you're compromising your health and your wellness, but that's your choice, and I understand it.
因此，在这方面，我想说，有证据表明，也许你正在损害你的健康和福祉，但这是你的选择，我理解。
So again, no judgment.
再说一次，没有判断力。
To the question, however, of as long as you're not hurting other people, here, I would say that there is a pause for caution because what we know is that when you're not getting sufficient sleep, I described all of the health consequences in the first episode.
然而，对于这个问题，只要你不伤害其他人，在这里，我想说的是，请暂停一下以保持谨慎，因为我们知道，当你睡眠不足时，我在第一集中描述了所有的健康后果。
There's another danger here, which is road traffic accidents, and we describe these microsleeps that happen and why car accidents that are caused by sleepiness can be so catastrophic.
这里还有另一个危险，那就是道路交通事故，我们描述了这些发生的微睡眠，以及为什么由困倦引起的车祸可能会造成如此灾难性的后果。
There's a very interesting study that was done where they looked at people getting less than six hours of sleep for several nights, and they put them into a driving simulator, and they asked, "What is the probability that you have a crash or an off-road event?" And sleeping less than six hours a night resulted in a 30% increase in you getting into a car crash.
有一项非常有趣的研究，他们观察了连续几个晚上睡眠时间少于六个小时的人，然后将他们放入驾驶模拟器中，然后问：“发生车祸或越野事件的概率是多少？”每晚睡眠不足 6 小时会导致发生车祸的几率增加 30%。
Now, the AAA released some data showing that when you get down to five hours of sleep, there is, I think it's something like two to three times higher likelihood of an accident based on real data.
现在，美国汽车协会发布的一些数据显示，根据真实数据，当你的睡眠时间减少到五个小时时，我认为发生事故的可能性会增加两到三倍。
And then when you are on four hours of sleep, it was close to a 10 times greater risk.
而当你睡四个小时时，风险会增加近 10 倍。
So in other words, the less and less sleep that you get, it's not a linear increase in your risk of a car accident.
换句话说，睡眠时间越少，发生车祸的风险并不是线性增加的。
It's an exponential increase.
这是一个指数级的增长。
So I bring this back to polyphasic sleep because I don't know-- Think about that 30% study.
所以我把这个问题带回多相睡眠，因为我不知道——想想那个 30% 的研究。
Let's not go to the extreme, just less than six hours of sleep.
我们不要走极端，睡眠不足六个小时就可以了。
If this evening you called a taxi, and it turns out two taxis turned up, and outside of your door I said, "Look, one of these two-- You can choose either one of them, but I'll just tell you that one of these taxis has a 30% higher likelihood of getting in a crash relative to the other, and it's this one on the right.
如果今天晚上你叫了一辆出租车，结果出现了两辆出租车，我在你门外说：“看，这两辆出租车中的一辆——你可以选择其中一辆，但我只是告诉你，其中一辆出租车发生车祸的可能性比另一辆高出 30%，而且就是右边的这辆。
Which would you like to pick?
您想选择哪个？
Or which would you like to put your wife and children in to send?" It's very obvious.
或者你想把你的妻子和孩子放进去送什么？”这是非常明显的。
So I raise that question just to be mindful.
所以我提出这个问题只是为了留心。
No one would wish to cause harm on someone else.
没有人愿意伤害别人。
To carry the harm of someone else by way of your own doing on your shoulders for the rest of your life is not one I would wish for, and it's not one that you would wish for.
把自己的所作所为给别人带来的伤害扛在肩上一辈子，不是我所希望的，也不是你所希望的。
That's the only cautionary note.
这是唯一的警告。
But other than that, I would say live life to the full.
但除此之外，我想说的是要充实地生活。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, that brings us to the conclusion of yet another incredible voyage into the landscape of sleep, most notably on the different phases, monophasic, biphasic, and polyphasic sleep, and naps and caffeine, and all of their interactions.
好吧，这给我们带来了又一次令人难以置信的睡眠之旅的结论，最引人注目的是不同的阶段，单相、双相和多相睡眠，小睡和咖啡因，以及它们所有的相互作用。
These are such important topics at the level of concepts, at the level of mechanisms, and as you've also beautifully described, at the level of protocols.
这些都是概念层面、机制层面以及协议层面的重要主题，正如您所描述的那样。
That is actionable tools that people can apply.
这是人们可以应用的可行工具。
So thank you ever so much, Matt, for taking us even further along this voyage.
所以非常感谢你，马特，让我们在这次航行中走得更远。
I'll just remind people that episodes one and two of this series that Matt is so generously providing information about sleep for us are out, and those can be accessed through links in the show note captions.
我只是提醒人们，马特如此慷慨地为我们提供有关睡眠的信息的本系列的第一集和第二集已经出版，可以通过节目注释标题中的链接访问这些内容。
Those fill in yet other mechanisms and aspects of sleep, and I'm also particularly excited for the fourth installment in this series coming up about the relationship between sleep, memory, and creativity.
这些内容填补了睡眠的其他机制和方面，我也对本系列中关于睡眠、记忆和创造力之间关系的第四部分感到特别兴奋。
So just incredibly important topics relevant to everybody.
所以这是与每个人都相关的非常重要的话题。
I also just want to make note that I really appreciate you highlighting some of the developmental shifts that occur with sleep.
我还想指出，我真的很感谢您强调睡眠中发生的一些发育变化。
I often get questions about sleep in children and babies and elderly adults, as well as all the ages in between, and you've just built this incredible tapestry of information for people to think about and act upon should they choose.
我经常收到有关儿童、婴儿和老年人以及其间所有年龄段睡眠的问题，而您刚刚构建了这个令人难以置信的信息挂毯，供人们思考并根据他们的选择采取行动。
So thank you, Matt, ever so much, and I look forward to episode four.
非常感谢你，马特，我期待第四集。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Andrew, thank you.
安德鲁，谢谢你。
It is such a privilege, and it remains just my absolute delight to be here with you.
这是一种荣幸，我非常高兴能和你们在一起。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me for today's episode with Dr. Matthew Walker.
感谢您接受我今天与马修·沃克博士的节目。
To learn more about Dr. Walker's research and to learn more about his book and his social media handles, please see the links in our show note captions.
要了解有关沃克博士的研究的更多信息以及有关他的书和社交媒体处理的更多信息，请参阅我们的节目注释标题中的链接。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请在 Spotify 和 Apple 上订阅该播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。
Please also check out the sponsors at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
还请在今天的节目开始和整个节目中查看赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have any questions for me or comments about the podcast or topics or guests that you'd like me to feature on the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有任何疑问或对您希望我在 Huberman Lab 播客上介绍的播客或主题或嘉宾有任何意见，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
On many episodes of the Huberman Lab podcast, we discuss supplements.
在休伯曼实验室播客的许多剧集中，我们讨论了补充剂。
While supplements aren't necessary for everybody, many people derive tremendous benefit from them, for things like improving sleep, for hormone support, and for focus.
虽然补充剂并不是每个人都需要的，但许多人都从它们中获得了巨大的好处，例如改善睡眠、支持激素和集中注意力。
To learn more about the supplements discussed on the Huberman Lab podcast, go to Live Momentous, spelled O-U-S.
要了解有关 Huberman Lab 播客上讨论的补充剂的更多信息，请访问 Live Momentous（拼写为 O-U-S）。
That's livemomentous.com/huberman.
这是 livemomentous.com/huberman。
If you're not already following me on social media, I'm hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 hubermanlab。
So that's Instagram, X, LinkedIn, Facebook, and Threads.
这就是 Instagram、X、LinkedIn、Facebook 和 Threads。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content covered on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和科学相关工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客涵盖的内容不同。
So again, it's hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
再说一遍，所有社交媒体平台上都是 hubermanlab。
If you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, our Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost newsletter that provides podcast summaries as well as protocols in the form of brief one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from neuroplasticity and learning to sleep, to deliberate cold exposure and deliberate heat exposure.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，我们的神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的时事通讯，它提供播客摘要以及简短的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从神经可塑性和学习到睡眠，到有意冷暴露和有意热暴露的所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol and much more.
我们有一个基本的健身协议等等。
All of which, again, is completely zero cost.
再次强调，所有这些都是完全零成本的。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab, scroll down to Newsletter, and by supplying your email, you can subscribe.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到菜单选项卡，向下滚动到时事通讯，然后提供您的电子邮件即可订阅。
I want to point out that we do not share your email with anybody.
我想指出的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion all about sleep with Dr. Matthew Walker.
再次感谢您今天与马修·沃克博士一起参与有关睡眠的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。