How to Expand Your Consciousness | Dr. Christof Koch
Andrew Huberman: Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
Andrew Huberman：欢迎来到 Huberman 实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
Andrew Huberman: I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，我是斯坦福大学医学院的神经生物学和眼科教授。
Andrew Huberman: My guest today is Dr. Christof Koch.
安德鲁·休伯曼：今天我的客人是克里斯托夫·科赫博士。
Dr. Christof Koch is a neuroscientist and investigator at the Allen Institute for Brain Science and the chief scientist at the Tiny Blue Dot Foundation.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士是艾伦脑科学研究所的神经科学家和研究员，也是小蓝点基金会的首席科学家。
He is considered one of the great pioneers and luminaries of modern neuroscience.
他被认为是现代神经科学的伟大先驱和杰出人物之一。
Christof's research has spanned how we perceive the world around us, how different states of mind arise and shape our experience of life, and, most notably, consciousness.
克里斯托夫的研究涵盖了我们如何感知周围的世界，不同的心态如何产生并塑造我们的生活体验，尤其是意识。
I joined the field of neuroscience way back in the 1990s, and even way back then, Christof's name and his work were considered seminal for our understanding of the brain and human experience.
我早在 20 世纪 90 年代就加入了神经科学领域，早在那时，克里斯托夫的名字和他的工作就被认为对我们理解大脑和人类经验具有影响力。
And over the subsequent 30 years, he has continued to do incredible, groundbreaking work.
在随后的 30 年里，他继续做出令人难以置信的开创性工作。
Andrew Huberman: Today, we discuss consciousness, what it is, literally, at the level of quantifiable brain mechanisms, and how understanding consciousness at that level can help you experience life more richly and allow you to place deeper meaning on everything from a typical morning to grief and loss to your greatest and most awe-inspiring moments.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：今天，我们在可量化的大脑机制层面上讨论意识，字面意思是什么，以及在这个层面上理解意识如何帮助你更丰富地体验生活，让你对一切事物赋予更深刻的意义，从一个典型的早晨到悲伤和失落，再到你最伟大和最令人敬畏的时刻。
Christof also explains how our individual experiences and memories place us each into a unique, what he calls, 'perception box,' which is what shapes your outlook on life, and in many cases, your quality of life, including your mental and physical health.
克里斯托夫还解释了我们的个人经历和记忆如何将我们每个人置于一个独特的、他所说的“感知盒子”中，它塑造了你的人生观，在许多情况下，塑造了你的生活质量，包括你的身心健康。
And he explains how you can change your perception box through what we call neuroplasticity, which is the modification of brain circuits.
他解释了如何通过我们所说的神经可塑性（即大脑回路的修改）来改变你的感知盒。
Andrew Huberman: We also discuss what flow states, psychedelics such as DMT and other psychedelics, meditation, sleep, and dreaming tell you about how your mind works and the nature of consciousness.
Andrew Huberman：我们还讨论了哪些心流状态、DMT 等迷幻药和其他迷幻药、冥想、睡眠和做梦可以告诉您您的思维如何运作以及意识的本质。
And we don't just discuss consciousness at the level of individuals.
我们不仅仅在个人层面上讨论意识。
We discuss the collective consciousness of humankind.
我们讨论人类的集体意识。
So, if you're somebody that's interested in the brain and mind, what it means to be human, how to evolve and improve your mind, today's discussion will address all of that.
因此，如果您对大脑和心智、人类意味着什么、如何进化和改善心智感兴趣，今天的讨论将解决所有这些问题。
Oh, and we also discuss dogs, cats, Jennifer Aniston, and the meaning of life.
哦，我们还讨论了狗、猫、詹妮弗·安妮斯顿和生命的意义。
Andrew Huberman: So get ready.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以做好准备吧。
This is a very special episode of the Huberman Lab podcast that I'm certain, by the time it finishes, will have you thinking differently about your life, and dare I say, with a bit more optimism.
这是休伯曼实验室播客中非常特别的一集，我确信，当它结束时，会让你对自己的生活有不同的思考，而且我敢说，会更加乐观。
Andrew Huberman: Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
Andrew Huberman：在我们开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Christof Koch.
现在我与克里斯托夫·科赫博士进行讨论。
Andrew Huberman: Dr. Christof Koch, welcome.
安德鲁·休伯曼：克里斯托夫·科赫博士，欢迎光临。
Christof Koch: Thank you for having me, Andrew.
克里斯托夫·科赫：谢谢你邀请我，安德鲁。
It's been a pleasure.
很高兴。
It's been more than a decade, 12 years since we last interacted.
距离我们上次互动已经十多年了，十二年了。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I've always enjoyed our interactions, and one of the reasons is that you're always into something super interesting, big, big questions and evolving fast all the time, all at once.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：是的，我一直很喜欢我们的互动，原因之一是你总是对一些超级有趣的、大的、大的问题感兴趣，并且一直在快速发展。
So, I think most people have heard the word consciousness.
所以，我想大多数人都听说过意识这个词。
They perhaps have pondered consciousness, but at least to my mind, it's not a very well-defined word.
他们也许思考过意识，但至少在我看来，这不是一个定义非常明确的词。
So when you talk about wanting to understand consciousness, or about having consciousness or being in a moment of consciousness versus say, a rock, which I'm presuming doesn't have consciousness, what are we talking about?
因此，当你谈论想要理解意识，或者谈论拥有意识或处于有意识的时刻，而不是比如说一块岩石（我假设它没有意识）时，我们在谈论什么？
And here we could be using biological language, psychological language, or philosophical language.
在这里我们可以使用生物语言、心理学语言或哲学语言。
Please include all of it because-
请包括所有内容，因为 -
Christof Koch: Much simpler.
克里斯托夫·科赫：简单得多。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
Christof Koch: Do you hear me?
克里斯托夫·科赫：你听到我说话了吗？
Andrew Huberman: Hmm?
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯？
Christof Koch: Do you hear me?
克里斯托夫·科赫：你听到我说话了吗？
Andrew Huberman: Yes.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Christof Koch: Do you see me?
克里斯托夫·科赫：你看到我了吗？
Andrew Huberman: Yes.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Christof Koch: The fact that you hear, not that you respond to my sound by moving your hand.
克里斯托夫·科赫：事实上，你听到了，而不是你通过移动你的手来回应我的声音。
The fact that you see, not the fact that you can navigate around this room, but you actually have a picture in your head.
你看到的事实，不是你可以在这个房间里导航的事实，而是你脑子里实际上有一张图片。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: The fact that you love, the fact that you hate, the fact that you dream, that you imagine, that you dread.
克里斯托夫·科赫：你爱的事实，你恨的事实，你梦想的事实，你想象的事实，你恐惧的事实。
Those are all conscious experiences.
这些都是有意识的体验。
It's the stuff of life, literally.
从字面上看，这是生活的内容。
If I give you a billion dollars, okay, that even for you is probably a meaningful amount of money, but let's say-
如果我给你十亿美元，好吧，即使对你来说这也可能是一笔有意义的钱，但是让我们说——
Andrew Huberman: Well, it certainly is, yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯，确实如此，是的。
Christof Koch: Okay, but there's a slight, you know, thing that I'm going to remove all your conscious experiences, so you would still love and hate and drive cars and do everything else you do right now, but there would be no light.
克里斯托夫·科赫：好吧，但是有一点，你知道，我会消除你所有的意识体验，所以你仍然会喜欢和讨厌开车，做你现在做的所有其他事情，但不会有光。
There wouldn't be any Andrew.
不会有安德鲁。
Would you take that wager?
你愿意接受这个赌注吗？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hm..
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯..
Andrew Huberman: No.
安德鲁·休伯曼：不。
Christof Koch: Well, the difference between those two states is consciousness.
克里斯托夫·科赫：嗯，这两种状态之间的区别在于意识。
So without it, you don't exist for yourself.
所以没有它，你就不是为自己而存在。
In fact, tonight you're going to go to bed, in particular in the early stages of the night, you go into non-REM delta wave sleep, right, and you do not exist for yourself.
事实上，今晚你要上床睡觉了，特别是在晚上的早期阶段，你会进入非快速眼动δ波睡眠，对吧，你并不为自己而存在。
If I wake you up, I said, "Andrew, Andrew, something's happening," and I ask you, "Well, where did you come from?" You say, "I came from nowhere," which is different, of course, later stage in the night, right, when you have a dream, which is another conscious experience, but when you sleep, you do not exist for yourself.
如果我叫醒你，我会说：“安德鲁，安德鲁，出事了，”我会问你，“那么，你从哪里来？”你说，“我不知从何而来”，这当然是不同的，在晚上的后期，对，当你做梦时，这是另一种有意识的体验，但当你睡觉时，你并不为自己而存在。
When you're under anesthesia, you do not exist for yourself.
当你处于麻醉状态时，你不再为自己而存在。
So you only exist for yourself because you are a conscious being.
所以你只为自己而存在，因为你是一个有意识的存在。
So in some sense, it's very simple to define.
所以从某种意义上来说，定义起来非常简单。
Andrew Huberman: Historically, has it been defined as a simple just presence of self and perception of the outside world, the way you're describing it?
安德鲁·休伯曼：从历史上看，它是否被定义为自我的简单存在和对外部世界的感知，就像你所描述的那样？
I feel like consciousness has been twisted and turned, and, you know, weaved into balloon animal form over so many hundreds of years that people tend to argue about consciousness.
我觉得意识已经被扭曲和转变，并且，你知道，在数百年的时间里，意识被编织成气球动物的形式，以至于人们倾向于争论意识。
And then they start getting into discussions about free will versus no free will, but why, given the simplicity and the clarity of your explanation, have people struggled with this definition of consciousness so much?
然后他们开始讨论自由意志与无自由意志，但是，鉴于你的解释简单明了，为什么人们对意识的定义如此挣扎？
Christof Koch: The study of consciousness is really a modern phenomenon.
克里斯托夫·科赫：意识研究确实是一种现代现象。
It's really René Descartes.
这确实是勒内·笛卡尔。
So, you know, Aristotle and Plato, much as they are the foundational fathers of philosophy, they didn't really have a position on the mind or on consciousness.
所以，你知道，亚里士多德和柏拉图，尽管他们是哲学的奠基之父，但他们在思想或意识上并没有真正的立场。
That's a modern thing.
那是现代的事情。
Where we have struggled is trying to put it in objective form.
我们一直在努力将其以客观的形式呈现出来。
So, you don't access my consciousness, and I don't access your consciousness.
所以，你无法进入我的意识，我也无法进入你的意识。
And this makes it different from anything else that we study, different from a black hole, from a virus, from a brain.
这使得它不同于我们研究的任何其他东西，不同于黑洞、病毒、大脑。
Because all those I can study with what philosophers call 'third-person properties,' right?
因为所有这些我都可以用哲学家所说的“第三人称属性”来研究，对吗？
You can stick them in a magnet.
您可以将它们粘在磁铁上。
You can point a telescope at it.
你可以用望远镜对着它。
We can agree on what's the wavelength, what's the weight, what's the mass, what's the molecular constituency.
我们可以就波长、重量、质量、分子成分达成一致。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: We can't do that with consciousness.
克里斯托夫·科赫：我们无法用意识做到这一点。
I believe you're conscious.
我相信你是有意识的。
In fact, I ask you, "How are you feeling today?" You tell me, "Well, I'm a little bit depressed because of what happened." Well, so I'm trying to get at your state of consciousness, but ultimately it's always an inference, whether it's you, or whether it's a baby, or whether it's an animal that can't directly talk because language is another way to infer.
事实上，我问你：“你今天感觉怎么样？”你告诉我，“嗯，因为发生的事情我有点沮丧。”好吧，所以我试图了解你的意识状态，但最终它总是一个推断，无论是你，还是婴儿，或者是不能直接说话的动物，因为语言是另一种推断方式。
So that makes it more difficult, and the other part is that people confound consciousness with consciousness of self.
这使得事情变得更加困难，另一方面，人们将意识与自我意识混为一谈。
So most people, if you ask them, "What's consciousness?" they say, "Oh, it's to know that I'm a man and I will die one day and I know what I had for breakfast." Those are all conscious experiences, but they really pertain to self-consciousness.
所以，如果你问大多数人，“什么是意识？”他们说，“哦，这是为了知道我是一个男人，我有一天会死，我知道我早餐吃什么。”这些都是有意识的体验，但它们确实属于自我意识。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: But that's just one aspect.
克里斯托夫·科赫：但这只是一方面。
You can lose self-consciousness...
你可能会失去自我意识...
Like, I know you had Alex Honnold here, and I know from reading and listening to some of what he says, he says when you're really climbing at an expert level, you flow over the rock.
就像，我知道亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）在这里，我从阅读和聆听他的一些言论中知道，他说当你真正达到专家水平时，你就会越过岩石。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: You're sort of high, you totally lose a sense of self, that inner voice, that critic that constantly speaks to you is gone during those moments.
克里斯托夫·科赫：你有点兴奋，你完全失去了自我意识，那种内心的声音，那个不断对你说话的批评家在那些时刻消失了。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: There's this blessed silence, but you're highly conscious because you're highly conscious of where you are and what's the next place you need to go to.
克里斯托夫·科赫：这是一种幸福的沉默，但你非常清醒，因为你非常清楚自己在哪里以及下一个需要去的地方是什么。
And of course, during psychedelic experience, during states of flow, during states of meditation, you can lose yourself, but you're still conscious.
当然，在迷幻体验中、在心流状态中、在冥想状态中，你可能会迷失自己，但你仍然是有意识的。
So let's not confound self-consciousness, which is one aspect, a big aspect, particularly in adult people, literally highly educated people, with consciousness that took over.
因此，我们不要将自我意识与接管意识混为一谈，自我意识是一个方面，一个重要的方面，特别是对于成年人，实际上是受过高等教育的人。
That's really a much broader set of...
这确实是一个更广泛的集合......
The fact that you can feel your limbs, right?
事实上你能感觉到你的四肢，对吗？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: That may not even relate to you, just feel something there without assigning it, "Well, that's my body." That is, again, it's another conscious experience.
克里斯托夫·科赫：这甚至可能与你无关，只是感觉那里有什么东西而不分配它，“好吧，那是我的身体。”也就是说，这又是另一种有意识的体验。
Andrew Huberman: The liminal states between sleep and awake, in both directions, falling asleep and waking up...
Andrew Huberman：睡眠和清醒之间的阈值状态，双向，入睡和醒来......
Do you think they offer any windows into this deeper understanding of consciousness, or does one even need a deeper understanding of consciousness?
你认为它们是否为更深入地理解意识提供了任何窗口，或者人们是否需要更深入地理解意识？
For instance, I'm a big fan of yoga nidra, which I've described as non-sleep deep rest.
例如，我是瑜伽休息术的忠实粉丝，我将其描述为非睡眠深度休息。
You deliberately lie down, do long exhale breathing to slow your heart rate down, bring down your levels of autonomic activation, more parasympathetic, et cetera.
你故意躺下，做长时间的呼气，以减慢你的心率，降低你的自主神经激活水平，更多的副交感神经，等等。
And the idea is you stay awake while deeply relaxing your body, a very atypical waking state that is more similar to rapid eye movement sleep, when the brain is very active, the body is paralyzed, as you know.
这个想法是你保持清醒，同时深度放松你的身体，这是一种非常非典型的清醒状态，更类似于快速眼动睡眠，当大脑非常活跃时，身体就会瘫痪，正如你所知。
Christof Koch: Lucid dreaming?
克里斯托夫·科赫：清醒梦？
Andrew Huberman: It's a state of mind where...
安德鲁·休伯曼：这是一种心态……
The instruction in the classic yoga nidra scripts, and this goes back thousands of years, is to move your mind from thinking and doing to being and feeling.
经典的瑜伽休息术脚本中的指导可以追溯到数千年前，就是将你的思想从思考和行动转移到存在和感觉。
You're supposed to be in pure sensation.
你应该处于纯粹的感觉中。
This is the idea.
这就是想法。
And as one does that, 10, 20, 30 minutes, and you do it repeatedly over your life, as many days as you do.
当一个人这样做时，10分钟、20分钟、30分钟，你一生都会重复这样做，就像你做的天数一样。
I've been doing it since 2017.
我从2017年就开始这么做了。
I can feel my-
我能感觉到我的——
Christof Koch: You do this every day?
克里斯托夫·科赫：你每天都这样做吗？
Andrew Huberman: Every day for 30 minutes.
Andrew Huberman：每天 30 分钟。
Yeah.
是的。
I can feel myself falling asleep, but not quite falling asleep.
我能感觉到自己睡着了，但还没有完全睡着。
So it's a little bit like lucid dreaming, but then as you remind yourself to bring your perception to your body surface or your heartbeat, your breathing, whatever it is, and stop making plans, you lose past and future, and you become hyper-present.
所以这有点像清醒梦，但当你提醒自己将感知带到你的身体表面或你的心跳、你的呼吸，无论是什么，并停止制定计划时，你就会失去过去和未来，你会变得超现实。
But something about your sensation and perception merges with thinking, and it's like you-
但你的感觉和知觉中的某些东西与思考融为一体，就像你——
Christof Koch: But Andrew, is Andrew still there?
克里斯托夫·科赫：但是安德鲁，安德鲁还在吗？
Andrew Huberman: Yes, I'm definitely still there.
Andrew Huberman：是的，我肯定还在那里。
I'm definitely still there.
我肯定还在那里。
You're not out of the body.
你还没有脱离身体。
Christof Koch: But you don't mind-wander in the past or in the future?
克里斯托夫·科赫：但是你不会走神于过去或未来吗？
Andrew Huberman: No. No, and it becomes very easy to do this, so you actually feel as if you're falling a little bit.
Andrew Huberman：不，不，而且做到这一点变得非常容易，所以你实际上感觉好像有一点下降。
Like the vestibular system probably shuts off a little bit as you're going into this, and you feel as if you're falling into it.
就像当你进入这个状态时，前庭系统可能会关闭一点，你会感觉自己好像陷入了其中。
And the classic definition, and I've tried to translate this to physiology, but they talk about once you eliminate thinking and doing, and you are more in a being/feeling state, what they called 'the energy body,' is more accessible.
经典的定义，我试图将其转化为生理学，但他们谈论一旦你消除了思考和行动，并且你更多地处于存在/感觉状态，他们所谓的“能量体”就更容易理解。
It's almost like you're feeling things within your body, and it's looping back on itself.
这几乎就像你在感受身体内的东西，并且它会自行循环。
Now, this all sounds very mystical, but what we're really talking about is more interoception, feeling, you know, you're moving your perceptual awareness, as you know, to things from skin inward.
现在，这一切听起来非常神秘，但我们真正谈论的是更多的内感受，感觉，你知道，你正在将你的感知意识从皮肤向内转移到事物上。
It's a very unusual state, but yes, I'm still there in yoga nidra.
这是一种非常不寻常的状态，但是，是的，我仍然处于瑜伽休息状态。
I'm not someplace else.
我不在别的地方。
I'm actually more in my body than in any other state.
事实上，我比其他任何状态都更专注于自己的身体。
Christof Koch: Well, you could also be simply not there at all.
克里斯托夫·科赫：嗯，你也可能根本不在那里。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: Where Andrew isn't there, the self, the one that carries your traits and your personality, your memories, but you're still conscious.
克里斯托夫·科赫：安德鲁不在的地方，是自我，承载着你的特质、你的个性、你的记忆，但你仍然有意识。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: That's interesting because it is very relaxing to emerge from this.
Andrew Huberman：这很有趣，因为从这个过程中走出来是非常放松的。
It's a great tool for replenishing physical and mental energy, and I've tracked sleep while in this, and there are some really nice brain imaging studies now of people doing yoga nidra, also called 'non-sleep deep rest,' and pockets of the brain go into regional sleep as opposed to what we normally see during sleep.
它是补充身体和精神能量的一个很好的工具，我在这期间跟踪了睡眠，现在有一些非常好的大脑成像研究，研究人们进行瑜伽休息术，也称为“非睡眠深度休息”，大脑的某些区域进入局部睡眠，而不是我们通常在睡眠期间看到的情况。
Christof Koch: Anon-
克里斯托夫·科赫：匿名-
Christof Koch: Whole brain.
克里斯托夫·科赫：整个大脑。
Andrew Huberman: So it's an interesting state.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以这是一个有趣的状态。
I'll send you a script to maybe give it a try and see if it means anything to you.
我会向您发送一个脚本，也许您可以尝试一下，看看它对您是否有意义。
Christof Koch: I would be...
克里斯托夫·科赫：我会...
I'm interested in all these different states of consciousness because it's all...
我对所有这些不同的意识状态感兴趣，因为它们都是......
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Christof Koch: I mean, it's dominated by everyday waking consciousness.
克里斯托夫·科赫：我的意思是，它是由日常清醒意识主导的。
But as you said, that's all about doing, right?
但正如你所说，这就是行动，对吗？
You walk, you run, you shop, you look around, you talk to people, but there are all these other states that don't involve the William James time streams of consciousness, but they are all conscious experiences.
你走路、跑步、购物、环顾四周、与人交谈，但还有所有这些其他状态不涉及威廉·詹姆斯时间意识流，但它们都是有意识的体验。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: And so, the more we know about them and the physiological basis, the better we can describe and delimit what consciousness is and what it is not.
克里斯托夫·科赫：因此，我们对它们和生理基础了解得越多，我们就能更好地描述和界定意识是什么和不是什么。
So, for instance, to your point, consciousness is not primarily doing.
因此，举例来说，就你的观点而言，意识并不是主要的行动。
Of course, we can do things, right?
当然，我们可以做一些事情，对吗？
We do it all the time.
我们一直这样做。
That's how we make a living.
这就是我们谋生的方式。
But consciousness is really more about being.
但意识实际上更多的是关于存在。
It's a state of being.
这是一种存在状态。
And by the way, that's also why computers, they can do everything we can do, but they can't be what we are...
顺便说一句，这也是为什么计算机，它们可以做我们能做的一切，但它们不能成为我们的样子......
Conscious.
有意识的。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: But that's-
克里斯托夫·科赫：但那是-
Andrew Huberman: Please elaborate on that.
安德鲁·休伯曼：请详细说明这一点。
Christof Koch: We confound consciousness and behavior because we talk.
克里斯托夫·科赫：我们因为说话而混淆了意识和行为。
We're speaking apes, right?
我们说的是猿类，对吧？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: But if you take that away, you are still highly conscious.
克里斯托夫·科赫：但如果你把它拿走，你仍然具有高度意识。
If you don't move, if you meditate or sleep or you have a mystical experience, you're sitting...
如果你不动，如果你冥想或睡觉，或者你有一种神秘的体验，你就是坐着......
Or a psychedelic experience, you're sitting or lying, you're not moving any body, hardly any overt movement, yet you're highly conscious, right?
或者是一种迷幻的体验，你坐着或躺着，你没有移动任何身体，几乎没有任何明显的动作，但你的意识很强，对吗？
So, behavior is not required for consciousness, and consciousness, of course, is not required for behavior.
因此，行为并不是意识所必需的，而意识当然也不是行为所必需的。
There are all sorts of unconscious behaviors.
存在各种各样的无意识行为。
And so, we shouldn't confound the two.
因此，我们不应该混淆两者。
And this relates in an interesting way to the confounding between intelligence and consciousness when people talk about artificial consciousness and artificial intelligence.
当人们谈论人工意识和人工智能时，这以一种有趣的方式与智能和意识之间的混淆相关。
Intelligence ultimately is about planning to do something, about behavior in the short term or in the long term, while consciousness is a state of being.
智力最终是关于计划做某事，关于短期或长期的行为，而意识是一种存在状态。
Being happy, being sad, being full of dread, or seeing something which is really different.
快乐、悲伤、充满恐惧，或者看到一些真正不同的东西。
Andrew Huberman: I'd like to take a quick break and thank one of our sponsors, BetterHelp.
Andrew Huberman：我想稍微休息一下，并感谢我们的赞助商之一 BetterHelp。
BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online.
BetterHelp 提供由持证治疗师完全在线进行的专业治疗。
I've been doing weekly therapy for well over 30 years, and I've found it to be a very important component to my overall health.
30 多年来，我每周进行一次治疗，我发现它对我的整体健康非常重要。
Andrew Huberman: There are essentially three things that great therapy provides.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：伟大的治疗本质上可以提供三件事。
First of all, great therapy provides good rapport with somebody that you can really trust and discuss any issues with.
首先，良好的治疗可以与您真正信任的人建立良好的融洽关系并与之讨论任何问题。
Second of all, it can provide support in the form of emotional guidance or directed guidance toward specific actions you want to take in your life.
其次，它可以以情感指导或针对您想要在生活中采取的具体行动的定向指导的形式提供支持。
And third, expert therapy can provide you with useful insights, insights that can allow you to make changes to improve your life, not just at the emotional level, but also your relationship life, your professional life, and on and on.
第三，专家治疗可以为您提供有用的见解，这些见解可以让您做出改变以改善您的生活，不仅是在情感层面，还包括您的人际关系生活、职业生活等等。
Andrew Huberman: With BetterHelp, they make it very easy to find an expert therapist that can help provide these benefits that come through expert therapy, and it's carried out entirely online, so it's extremely convenient.
Andrew Huberman：通过 BetterHelp，他们可以很容易地找到一位专家治疗师，可以帮助提供通过专家治疗带来的这些好处，并且完全在线进行，因此非常方便。
No driving to the therapist's office, no looking for parking, et cetera.
无需开车前往治疗师办公室，无需寻找停车位等等。
If you'd like to try BetterHelp, you can go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month.
如果您想尝试 BetterHelp，可以访问 betterhelp.com/huberman，第一个月可享受 10% 的折扣。
Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman.
再说一次，这是 betterhelp.com/huberman。
Andrew Huberman: Today's episode is also brought to us by Our Place.
Andrew Huberman：今天的节目也是由 Our Place 为我们带来的。
Our Place makes my favorite pots, pans, and other cookware.
我们的地方生产我最喜欢的锅、平底锅和其他炊具。
Surprisingly, toxic compounds such as PFAS or forever chemicals are still found in 80% of nonstick pans as well as utensils, appliances, and countless other kitchen products.
令人惊讶的是，80% 的不粘锅以及餐具、电器和无数其他厨房产品中仍然含有 PFAS 或永久化学物质等有毒化合物。
As I've discussed before in this podcast, these PFAS or forever chemicals like Teflon have been linked to major health issues such as hormone disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems, so it's really important to try and avoid them.
正如我之前在本播客中讨论过的那样，这些 PFAS 或特氟龙等永久性化学物质与荷尔蒙破坏、肠道微生物组破坏、生育问题和许多其他健康问题等重大健康问题有关，因此尝试避免它们非常重要。
Andrew Huberman: This is why I'm a huge fan of Our Place.
Andrew Huberman：这就是为什么我是 Our Place 的超级粉丝。
Our Place products are made with the highest quality materials and are all completely PFAS and toxin-free.
我们的 Place 产品采用最优质的材料制成，完全不含 PFAS 和毒素。
I especially love their Titanium Always Pan Pro.
我特别喜欢他们的 Titanium Always Pan Pro。
It's the first nonstick pan made with zero chemicals and zero coating.
这是第一个采用零化学品和零涂层制成的不粘锅。
Instead, it uses pure titanium.
相反，它使用纯钛。
This means it has no harmful forever chemicals and does not degrade or lose its nonstick effect over time.
这意味着它不含永久有害的化学物质，并且不会随着时间的推移而降解或失去其不粘效果。
It's also beautiful to look at.
看起来也很漂亮。
I cook eggs in my Titanium Always Pan Pro almost every morning.
我几乎每天早上都会用 Titanium Always Pan Pro 煮鸡蛋。
The design allows for the eggs to cook perfectly without sticking to the pan.
该设计使鸡蛋能够完美烹饪而不会粘在锅上。
I also cook burgers and steaks in it, and it puts a really nice sear on the meat.
我还用它来做汉堡和牛排，它给肉带来了非常好的烤焦效果。
But again, nothing sticks to it, so it's really easy to clean, and it's even dishwasher-safe.
但同样，没有任何东西粘在上面，所以它非常容易清洁，甚至可以用洗碗机清洗。
I love it, and I basically use it constantly.
我很喜欢它，而且我基本上一直在使用它。
Andrew Huberman: Our Place now has a full line of Titanium Pro cookware that uses its first-of-its-kind Titanium nonstick technology.
Andrew Huberman：我们的地方现在拥有全系列的 Titanium Pro 炊具，采用其首创的钛不粘技术。
So if you're looking for non-toxic, long-lasting pots and pans, go to fromourplace.com/huberman and use the code HUBERMAN at checkout.
因此，如果您正在寻找无毒、耐用的锅碗瓢盆，请访问 fromourplace.com/huberman 并在结帐时使用代码 HUBERMAN。
With 100-day risk-free trial, free shipping, and free returns, you can experience this terrific cookware with zero risk.
通过 100 天无风险试用、免费送货和免费退货，您可以零风险体验这款出色的炊具。
Andrew Huberman: I'm curious about the stability of self-representation.
Andrew Huberman：我对自我表征的稳定性很好奇。
As you know, there are many conditions related to brain lesions, strokes, injuries, et cetera where people will lose their memories of the past, or the inability to form new memories emerges.
如您所知，有许多与脑损伤、中风、受伤等相关的情况，人们会失去过去的记忆，或者无法形成新的记忆。
But one of the things that seems so rigid is one's notion of self.
但似乎如此僵化的事情之一就是一个人的自我观念。
Like a baby coming into the world very quickly learns that they have a name, they have a self, that self interacts with other things, and I'm not aware of any clinical conditions where people lose themselves completely for long periods of time.
就像一个来到这个世界上的婴儿很快就知道他们有一个名字，他们有一个自我，自我与其他事物相互作用，我不知道有任何临床情况会让人们在很长一段时间内完全迷失自己。
Christof Koch: Derealization.
克里斯托夫·科赫：现实解体。
Andrew Huberman: Derealization.
安德鲁·休伯曼：现实解体。
Christof Koch: Well, derealization is one where you feel...
克里斯托夫·科赫：嗯，现实解体是一种你感觉……
So, A, you're perfectly right.
所以，A，你说得完全正确。
The self is the basic kernel of our operating system.
self 是我们操作系统的基本内核。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: Okay?
克里斯托夫·科赫：好吗？
And it's very difficult for us to lose because if we lose it, we would not be, from an evolutionary point of view, in a good shape, right?
对我们来说，失去它是非常困难的，因为如果我们失去它，从进化的角度来看，我们就不会处于良好的状态，对吗？
But then there are conditions where you feel...
但在某些情况下你会觉得...
So, for instance, in derealization, a psychiatric condition, which can, by the way, happen during psychedelics, you feel not you anymore, and you feel there's something off with the world.
因此，举例来说，在现实解体中，一种精神疾病，顺便说一下，这种情况可能发生在迷幻药期间，你感觉不再是你了，你感觉世界有些不对劲。
This is not the real world.
这不是真实的世界。
There's something funny.
有件事很有趣。
The world...
世界...
They still see and hear fine, but they all believe that this isn't the real world, and they try to wake up.
他们的视力和听力仍然很好，但他们都相信这不是现实世界，他们试图醒来。
In fact, you probably remember a year and a half ago, there was a spectacular case of the Alaska Airlines pilot who asked to go onto the jump seat on a flight from Everett in Washington to, I think, Oregon or San Francisco.
事实上，你可能还记得一年半前，有一个引人注目的案例，阿拉斯加航空公司的飞行员要求坐在从华盛顿埃弗里特飞往俄勒冈州或旧金山的航班上的折叠座椅上。
Andrew Huberman: I've flown that from Everett.
Andrew Huberman：我从埃弗里特飞来的。
Tiny airport.
小机场。
Christof Koch: Yes.
克里斯托夫·科赫：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Christof Koch: And then they said, "Of course." He's a colleague.
克里斯托夫·科赫：然后他们说，“当然。”他是一位同事。
He was a pilot in good standing.
他是一名信誉良好的飞行员。
Into the flight, he stood up and tried to pull the two switches that would kill the fuel to the two engines.
进入飞机后，他站起来，试图拉动两个开关，以切断两台发动机的燃油。
The pilots fought him and kicked him out of the cabin, and he was arrested.
飞行员与他发生冲突，并将他踢出了机舱，他随后被捕。
In fact, the trial was three days ago.
事实上，审判已经是三天前的事了。
What happened was that for the first time ever, he took psychedelics three days earlier at a wake for his best friend, and then he went into this episode of derealization where he thought, "Okay, this is not the real world.
发生的事情是，三天前，他第一次在为他最好的朋友守灵时服用了迷幻药，然后他进入了这段现实失落的时期，他想：“好吧，这不是现实世界。
This is a dream.
这是一个梦。
I need to wake up.
我需要醒来。
And if in my dream, if I crash the plane, then I will finally wake up in the real world."
如果在梦中，如果我飞机坠毁，那么我最终会在现实世界中醒来。”
Andrew Huberman: Whoa.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哇哦。
Christof Koch: So, yes, it is very robust but of course...
Christof Koch：所以，是的，它非常强大，但是当然......
So I call it, we always live in the gravitational field of planet ego.
所以我称之为，我们总是生活在自我星球的引力场中。
It is always about me.
它总是关于我。
It is always about me, me, me.
它总是关于我，我，我。
And even if I don't think explicitly, there are things that are, you know, there are processes monitoring my consciousness to make sure that it's always important for me.
即使我没有明确地思考，有些事情，你知道，有一些过程监视着我的意识，以确保它对我来说总是很重要。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: And it's very rare, but of course, the self can also be highly dysfunctional, right?
克里斯托夫·科赫：这种情况非常罕见，但当然，自我也可能高度失调，对吧？
You can catastrophize, you can be highly anxious, you can think people are insulting you, or they say bad things about you, while in fact they don't at all.
你可能会陷入灾难，你可能会非常焦虑，你可能会认为人们在侮辱你，或者他们说你的坏话，但事实上他们根本没有。
And so there are rare conditions of selflessness when, just like an astronaut that can become weightless, you can become selfless.
因此，存在着罕见的无私条件，就像宇航员可以变得失重一样，你可以变得无私。
Andrew Huberman: Hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Interesting.
有趣的。
Christof Koch: So during episodes when you are experiencing a state of flow...
克里斯托夫·科赫：所以在剧集中，当你经历心流状态时......
I used to have this when I wrote computer code, when I was way younger.
当我年轻的时候，当我编写计算机代码时，我曾经有过这个。
You can totally get absorbed by it, right?
你完全可以被它吸引，对吧？
Or you read a book, or you read an engaging movie, or you play some sports or something, or you're Alex Honnold and climb, right?
或者你读了一本书，或者你读了一部引人入胜的电影，或者你参加了一些运动或其他什么，或者你是亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）并攀登，对吧？
And partly these states are so addictive because it's such...
部分这些状态是如此令人上瘾，因为它是如此......
You've just realized you spent the last 20 minutes in this heavenly state doing something, but again, the critic is gone.
你刚刚意识到你花了最后 20 分钟在这个天堂般的状态中做了一些事情，但同样，批评者已经消失了。
And of course, during high, sometimes heroic doses of psychedelics, you can also totally lose yourself, the sense of self, and you realize how profound, beautiful the world is without you.
当然，在服用高剂量、有时甚至是英雄剂量的迷幻剂时，你也可能完全迷失自己，失去自我意识，你会意识到没有你的世界是多么深刻、美丽。
You know, the self being there and constantly interfering and relating it to, "What does it mean for me?
你知道，自我就在那里，不断地干扰并将其与“这对我意味着什么？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: What does this give me?"
克里斯托夫·科赫：这给了我什么？”
Andrew Huberman: It's incredible.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：这太不可思议了。
We're definitely going to talk about psychedelics, and I've experienced some of this loss of self in psychedelics before.
我们肯定会谈论迷幻药，我以前也经历过迷幻药迷失自我的经历。
I'm also interested in more subtle shifts in self that are nonetheless still profound.
我也对自我的更微妙的转变感兴趣，尽管如此，这些转变仍然是深刻的。
Perhaps the most dramatic shift in self I've ever experienced that was pervasive after the kind of incident, was I have a colleague at Stanford, Jeremy Bailenson, he's a real pioneer in the VR space.
也许在此类事件发生后，我经历过的最戏剧性的自我转变是我在斯坦福大学的一位同事杰里米·拜伦森 (Jeremy Bailenson)，他是 VR 领域真正的先驱。
Very early on, he started using VR, and there's an experience you can have in his laboratory if you go there, which is you put on the VR goggles...
他很早就开始使用VR，你去他的实验室有一个体验，就是戴上VR眼镜……
He had a big room for VR with padded walls so no one runs into the walls, and it's called, I think, 'Walk of 1,000 Cuts.'
他有一个很大的 VR 房间，墙壁上有软垫，这样就不会有人撞到墙壁，我想这就是所谓的“1000 次剪辑行走”。
Andrew Huberman: It's very interesting.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这非常有趣。
So, obviously, I'm white, you're white, so I don't know what it is to experience racism.
所以，显然，我是白人，你也是白人，所以我不知道经历种族主义是什么感觉。
I've never actually experienced racism just by virtue of when I grew up, where I grew up, and I'm white, and I'm living in the United States.
我从来没有真正经历过种族主义，仅仅因为我长大的时间、我长大的地方、我是白人、我住在美国。
I'm sure there would be those that would argue that there are white people who have experienced racism, I haven't, and I certainly hadn't at the time of this VR experience.
我确信有人会争辩说有些白人经历过种族主义，但我没有，而且在体验 VR 时我当然也没有经历过。
So in this experience, you put on the VR glasses, and if you're white, you look into a mirror in the VR, and you see your face slowly contort to somebody who's black.
因此，在这种体验中，你戴上 VR 眼镜，如果你是白人，你看着 VR 中的镜子，你会看到你的脸慢慢扭曲成黑人。
Okay?
好的？
And it's still you, but you're black.
仍然是你，但你是黑人。
And then you go into the world in the VR space, and you go to a job interview, and you walk down the street, and it's very interesting.
然后你进入 VR 空间的世界，去参加工作面试，然后走在街上，这非常有趣。
Andrew Huberman: Now, the stimuli are designed to evoke a certain response.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：现在，刺激的目的是引起某种反应。
But as you walk down the street, for instance, you notice that white people look at you in a certain glance.
但例如，当你走在街上时，你会注意到白人用某种眼神看着你。
And they actually control pupil size in these other subjects very well, very carefully.
事实上，他们在其他科目中控制瞳孔大小的方式非常、非常仔细。
And then you go to the job interview, and there's this experience where at the end of the job interview, there's someone else there, and they shake the hand of the other person, who is also not white but isn't black.
然后你去参加工作面试，有这样的经历，在工作面试结束时，还有其他人在那里，他们与另一个人握手，这个人也不是白人，但也不是黑人。
And so, there's a number of subtle experiences, and then you catch onto what's happening, right?
所以，有很多微妙的经历，然后你就会明白正在发生什么，对吗？
Andrew Huberman: You go, okay, these are these little not-so-micro experiences that have an emotional load.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好吧，这些都是带有情感负担的不那么微观的小经历。
You come out of that VR experience.
你从 VR 体验中走出来。
It's very interesting.
这很有趣。
And then you go back into life, back on campus, and go and do it.
然后你回到生活，回到校园，开始做这件事。
You never forget it.
你永远不会忘记它。
It's so interesting, like, never have I forgotten the experience.
这太有趣了，我永远不会忘记这次经历。
So when you walk down the street, now I notice when people don't glance my way, if they glance my way, how they glance.
所以，当你走在街上时，现在我会注意到，当人们不朝我这边看时，如果他们朝我这边看，他们会怎么看。
And so, I can't say what it is to be black.
所以，我不能说黑人是什么。
I've only ever lived in this body.
我一直只活在这个身体里。
Andrew Huberman: I can't say what it is to be anything except myself, but in a very brief, maybe 10-minute VR experience, completely transformed my understanding of what it is to be a different self, which I think is pretty interesting.
Andrew Huberman：除了我自己之外，我无法说出什么是成为任何人，但在一个非常简短的，也许10分钟的VR体验中，完全改变了我对成为不同的自我的理解，我认为这非常有趣。
I don't think I've ever had a movie experience, or a play, or hearing a song that had quite as profound a shift internally, so clearly there was plasticity there.
我想我从来没有经历过一场电影、一场戏剧、或者听过一首歌曲能在内心产生如此深刻的转变，所以很明显那里有可塑性。
I just would love your thoughts on the self as a modifiable entity, not just losing self, but like, how much can we actually change who we are at the level of perception and consciousness?
我只是喜欢你对自我作为一个可修改实体的想法，不仅仅是失去自我，而是，我们在感知和意识层面上实际上可以改变我们是谁？
Christof Koch: So I would call it the transformative experience.
克里斯托夫·科赫：所以我将其称为变革性体验。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: Right?
克里斯托夫·科赫：对吗？
We all know changing behavior is very difficult, but there you're telling me within 10 minutes, because of this 10 or 15 minute VR experience, you're now much more hyper-aware of this.
我们都知道改变行为非常困难，但你在 10 分钟内告诉我，由于这 10 或 15 分钟的 VR 体验，你现在对此更加高度意识到。
So that's a rare experience, and I think it would be useful for all of us to have those.
所以这是一次难得的经历，我认为拥有这些经历对我们所有人来说都是有用的。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: So I work with somebody here in Santa Monica, Elizabeth R.
Christof Koch：所以我和圣莫尼卡的一个人一起工作，Elizabeth R.
Koch...
科赫...
We're not related, although we share the last name, and she has this really interesting idea of what she calls 'perception box,' that we all run around with our own view of reality.
尽管我们同姓，但我们没有血缘关系，而且她有一个非常有趣的想法，她称之为“感知盒”，我们都带着自己对现实的看法。
You'll see how this relates, including, most importantly, my notion of self.
你会看到这之间的关系，最重要的是，包括我的自我概念。
And it's not objective, it's all subjective.
这不是客观的，这都是主观的。
It's just like a Bayesian thing, you know, the modern language would be Bayesian priors.
这就像贝叶斯的事情，你知道，现代语言将是贝叶斯先验。
I have various Bayesian priors of how I expect myself to be, and how I expect other people to respond to me.
我有各种贝叶斯先验，关于我期望自己如何，以及我期望其他人如何回应我。
Andrew Huberman: Do you want to explain Bayesian for people just briefly?
Andrew Huberman：您想简单地向人们解释一下贝叶斯吗？
Christof Koch: Okay.
克里斯托夫·科赫：好的。
So Bayesian is a view of uncertainty in the world that was sort of...
所以贝叶斯是一种关于世界不确定性的观点，有点......
There's this famous British vicar, Thomas Bayes, in the 17th century who started this, so this is called Bayesian, whereby I look at something and I try to infer, well, what's the underlying reason for it, and I update my...
17 世纪，一位著名的英国牧师托马斯·贝叶斯 (Thomas Bayes) 开创了这个领域，所以这被称为贝叶斯主义，我通过观察某些东西，尝试推断其根本原因是什么，然后我更新我的……
Based on certain observations that I make, I continuously have this running estimate of what I think is really going on, and this also includes my base assumption about the world, including political assumptions, including assumptions of how people will react, or what's the true motive of people.
根据我所做的某些观察，我不断地对我认为真正发生的事情进行不断的估计，这也包括我对世界的基本假设，包括政治假设，包括人们将如何反应的假设，或者人们的真正动机是什么。
Christof Koch: So the point that she's trying to make with this perception box, it includes everything.
克里斯托夫·科赫：所以她试图用这个感知盒表达的观点，它包括一切。
So a benign, funny example is, do you remember what we call '#TheDress'?
一个善意且有趣的例子是，你还记得我们所说的“#TheDress”吗？
Andrew Huberman: Oh, yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哦，是的。
Christof Koch: Okay?
克里斯托夫·科赫：好吗？
So remember, this was the dress that went viral in 2015, where it was a wedding dress, where if you looked at it, half of the...
所以请记住，这是 2015 年风靡一时的裙子，它是一件婚纱，如果你看它，一半......
Roughly, I can't remember the exact percentages, but half the people saw it unambiguously as gold and white.
粗略地说，我记不清确切的百分比，但有一半的人明确地将其视为金色和白色。
That's how I see it.
我就是这么看的。
There's no question.
毫无疑问。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Same.
相同的。
Yeah.
是的。
Christof Koch: Okay, same.
克里斯托夫·科赫：好的，一样。
But half of the other people see it as blue and black.
但其他一半人认为它是蓝色和黑色的。
And again, they don't...
再说一次，他们不...
It's not something, guessing is it maybe one or the other?
这不是什么，猜猜可能是其中之一？
They just see it blue and black, or...
他们只看到它蓝色和黑色，或者......
Okay, so then people ask, "Well, is there anything real?
好吧，那么人们就会问：“那么，有什么真实的东西吗？
What is the real color?" Often, people get asked.
真正的颜色是什么？”人们经常被问到。
No, there is no real color.
不，没有真正的颜色。
Christof Koch: What there is are photons from the sun that strike the two-dimensional surface of the dress that get absorbed by my photoreceptors, that then get processed, and they get evaluated in one way in our brain, so we see it as white and gold, and get valued differently in a different brain because we all have different priors.
克里斯托夫·科赫：来自太阳的光子撞击到衣服的二维表面，被我的光感受器吸收，然后进行处理，并在我们的大脑中以一种方式进行评估，所以我们将其视为白色和金色，并且在不同的大脑中得到不同的评估，因为我们都有不同的先验。
This has to do with whether we are evening persons or morning persons.
这与我们是晚上的人还是早起的人有关。
Christof Koch: But this also applies to things like 9/11 and October 7th.
Christof Koch：但这也适用于 9/11 和 10 月 7 日之类的事情。
If I tell you this, 9/11, what do you think about it?
如果我告诉你这个，9/11，你怎么看？
Or October 7th, depending on whether you are an Israeli or a Palestinian, you have profoundly different views of it, right?
或者10月7日，取决于你是以色列人还是巴勒斯坦人，你对它的看法截然不同，对吗？
Christof Koch: So you look at a fact that's supposedly objective, but depending on what priors you bring to it, what your perception box construct is, in what culture you grew up, you have radically different interpretation, and this also includes your sense of self.
克里斯托夫·科赫：所以你看到一个被认为是客观的事实，但根据你带来的先验、你的感知框结构是什么、你在什么文化中长大，你会有完全不同的解释，这也包括你的自我意识。
So I would say what you had was this transformative experience.
所以我想说你所经历的是这种变革性的经历。
You expanded your perception box, that your perception of reality to now includes the notion, "Huh, I get it now that other people, depending on their skin of their colors, will be treated differently from me."
你扩大了你的感知范围，你对现实的感知现在包括这样的概念：“嗯，我现在明白了，其他人，根据他们的肤色和肤色，会受到与我不同的对待。”
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: That's invaluable.
克里斯托夫·科赫：这是无价的。
And I wish we all had that.
我希望我们都能拥有这样的东西。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, and I got to experience a sliver of what the emotional experience is like because it was an emotional response in Andrew, right?
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，我体验到了一点情感体验，因为这是安德鲁的情感反应，对吧？
And in many ways, it was far more informative than any documentary I've ever seen or any movie, which had a profound effect on me while I watched them, but didn't change the way that I think about how I interact with others on a moment-to-moment basis.
从很多方面来说，它比我看过的任何纪录片或电影都提供了更多的信息，在我观看它们时对我产生了深远的影响，但并没有改变我时时刻刻与他人互动的方式。
Because I don't consider myself racist, and I didn't then.
因为我不认为自己是种族主义者，当时也不是。
And you notice in this VR experience the way that the...
你会注意到在这个 VR 体验中......
I have a friend who's a psychologist who says, "You know, the subtle informs the gross." The way these little things change the way that you feel, and then the way that you interact, and then it starts to feed back on what the expectations of you are, whether or not you live into or combat those expectations.
我有一位心理学家朋友，他说：“你知道，微妙之处揭示粗俗。”这些小事情改变了你的感受方式，然后改变了你互动的方式，然后它开始反馈你的期望是什么，无论你是否生活在这些期望中或与这些期望作斗争。
And what I realized is it's a hell of a lot of work.
我意识到这是一项艰巨的工作。
There's like a burden of mental load that was not familiar to me before.
这就像一种我以前不熟悉的精神负担。
And the-
还有-
Christof Koch: Implicit and explicit.
克里斯托夫·科赫：隐式和显式。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: Yeah, so you have to think about it.
克里斯托夫·科赫：是的，所以你必须考虑一下。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Christof Koch: What does it mean?
克里斯托夫·科赫：这是什么意思？
What does it mean for my behavior?
这对我的行为意味着什么？
What does it mean for other people's behavior?
这对其他人的行为意味着什么？
Yeah, so you can call it...
是的，所以你可以称之为...
In psychedelics, this is called the integration period.
在迷幻药中，这被称为整合期。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Christof Koch: So I would submit you had a transformative experience.
克里斯托夫·科赫：所以我认为你有一次变革性的经历。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: You had what philosophers call 'direct acquaintance,' now with some form of racism, right?
克里斯托夫·科赫：你有哲学家所说的“直接认识”，现在又接触到了某种形式的种族主义，对吧？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: Subtle racism, right, in this VR, and now you're doing the explicit work of reformulating everything.
Christof Koch：在这个 VR 中存在着微妙的种族主义，对吧，现在你正在做重新制定一切的明确工作。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: You're changing, literally, your Bayesian priors.
Christof Koch：从字面上看，你正在改变你的贝叶斯先验。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: So I imagine you're top-down, you know, from, let's say, prefrontal cortex back into whatever theory of mind, for instance, areas, right?
克里斯托夫·科赫：所以我想你是自上而下的，你知道，从前额叶皮层回到任何心理理论，例如区域，对吗？
You are changing your priors.
你正在改变你的先验。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: It was really striking given how short the experience was, and how first-person it was, right?
Andrew Huberman：考虑到体验如此短暂，而且是第一人称视角，这确实令人震惊，对吧？
Obviously, with VR, it's not like watching a movie.
显然，使用 VR，它不像看电影。
You are the movie.
你就是电影。
You're in the movie.
你在电影里。
You're the first-person actor in the movie.
你是电影中的第一人称演员。
Christof Koch: So I think there are two ways to achieve a transformative effect.
Christof Koch：所以我认为有两种方法可以实现变革性的效果。
One is the slow one, by educating yourself, by reading books, by watching movies.
一种是缓慢的，通过自学、读书、看电影。
But as you said, very often it doesn't really bite until you have a direct experience.
但正如你所说，很多时候只有你有直接的体验，它才会真正起作用。
You directly have acquaintance with this.
您直接熟悉了这一点。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: Then suddenly you say, "Now I get it." And this is the character of any transformative experiences, including mystical experiences.
克里斯托夫·科赫：然后你突然说：“现在我明白了。”这就是任何变革性体验的特征，包括神秘体验。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Recently, I was at Esalen, this beautiful place on the Big Sur coast that-
Andrew Huberman：最近，我在 Esalen，这是大苏尔海岸的一个美丽的地方——
Christof Koch: Yeah.
克里斯托夫·科赫：是的。
Christof Koch: I mean, it's just up here, right?
Christof Koch：我的意思是，它就在这里，对吧？
Around 200 miles or 300 miles up the coast.
距海岸约 200 英里或 300 英里。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, although they've shut it down.
Andrew Huberman：是的，尽管他们已经关闭了。
The freeway fell out some years ago south of Esalen, so you have to go up and around now from Southern California, where we are now.
几年前，伊莎兰以南的高速公路塌陷了，所以你现在必须从我们现在所在的南加州上去绕一圈。
Christof Koch: Oh.
克里斯托夫·科赫：哦。
Andrew Huberman: Still an incredible place that's been very seminal in the mindfulness movement, and just a gorgeous place to visit for many reasons.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：仍然是一个令人难以置信的地方，在正念运动中具有非常重要的影响力，而且出于多种原因，它也是一个值得参观的美丽地方。
But while I was there, I had an incredible experience that involved you, although you didn't realize it, and it wasn't a psychedelic experience, nor was it a dream.
但当我在那里时，我经历了一次令人难以置信的经历，让你参与其中，尽管你没有意识到，这不是迷幻的经历，也不是梦。
I went into the bookstore, and I found a book of one of my favorite humans that I unfortunately never met, which is Dr. Oliver Sacks, who's now deceased, right?
我走进书店，发现一本我最喜欢的人的书，不幸的是我从未见过，他就是奥利弗·萨克斯博士，他现在已经去世了，对吧？
Great neurologist, writer.
伟大的神经学家、作家。
And it's a book of all his letters, and there are a couple of letters in there to you.
这是一本包含他所有信件的书，其中有几封写给你的信。
Christof Koch: Oh, that's how it is.
克里斯托夫·科赫：哦，事情就是这样。
Andrew Huberman: And I have a very close relationship with all things Oliver Sacks.
Andrew Huberman：我与 Oliver Sacks 的一切事物都有着非常密切的关系。
I'm a collector of many of his things.
我是他的许多东西的收藏家。
So, one of the most interesting things about him and one of the things that he wrote to you about in this book, I don't know if you've seen this book, is he describes his efforts to understand consciousness and the human brain better by literally taking some time, presumably without psychedelics, and imagine what it is to be a bat, to be...
所以，关于他的最有趣的事情之一，也是他在这本书中写给你的事情之一，我不知道你是否看过这本书，是他描述了他为更好地理解意识和人类大脑所做的努力，他花了一些时间，大概没有迷幻剂，想象一下成为一只蝙蝠是什么感觉，成为……
Christof Koch: I have.
克里斯托夫·科赫：我有。
Andrew Huberman: We know bats aren't completely blind, but to essentially navigate and sense the world without vision as the dominant sense, to experience through sonar, and he would spend time thinking about being a bat up in the corner of the room, or a cephalopod like an octopus, or a cat.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我们知道蝙蝠并不是完全失明，但本质上是在没有视觉作为主导感觉的情况下导航和感知世界，通过声纳进行体验，他会花时间思考成为房间角落里的蝙蝠，或者像章鱼或猫一样的头足类动物。
And, you know, you read this and you go, "Okay, this guy's crazy," right?
而且，你知道，当你读到这篇文章时，你会说，“好吧，这家伙疯了，”对吧？
"This guy must be crazy." But I realize now, based on everything you've said so far, that he was very far from crazy.
“这家伙一定是疯了。”但我现在意识到，根据你到目前为止所说的一切，他还远未发疯。
He was hyper-sane in this regard, because as difficult as it is to lose oneself, and to go into the mind of another human, the VR experience that I had clearly demonstrates to me that it's possible, and yet we have a very hard time imagining what it is like to be non-human.
在这方面他非常理智，因为尽管失去自我、进入另一个人的思想是很困难的，但我的 VR 体验清楚地向我表明这是可能的，但我们很难想象作为非人类会是什么样子。
Andrew Huberman: And nowadays, with the emergence of AI and fear about, you know, merging of humans and machines, I think it's going to be ever more important that we understand what kind of flexibility we have in moving from human consciousness to non-human consciousness.
Andrew Huberman：如今，随着人工智能的出现以及对人类与机器融合的恐惧，我认为我们了解从人类意识转向非人类意识的灵活性将变得更加重要。
So, I would love your thoughts or any stories you have about Oliver.
所以，我很想听听你的想法或任何关于奥利弗的故事。
I simply adore him through the writings I've consumed.
我只是通过我所阅读的著作来崇拜他。
But I think this practice of pretending or trying to shift one's consciousness to that of another animal is just profound, and I like to think it also can bring us closer to the animals that we curate as pets.
但我认为这种假装或试图将一个人的意识转移到另一种动物的意识的做法是意义深远的，而且我认为它也可以让我们更接近我们作为宠物饲养的动物。
Dogs in particular.
尤其是狗。
So, I'd love your thoughts about this, or Oliver, or all of the above.
所以，我很想听听您对此、奥利弗或以上所有问题的想法。
Christof Koch: Yeah, he was a great friend.
克里斯托夫·科赫：是的，他是一位好朋友。
I visited him many times.
我多次拜访过他。
I met him through Francis Crick, and we had this shared interest in the brain and in consciousness, and he was incredible.
我通过弗朗西斯·克里克认识了他，我们对大脑和意识有着共同的兴趣，他非常棒。
I mean, what made him so singular, also in his interaction with patients, was his empathy.
我的意思是，让他如此独特的原因是他的同理心，在他与患者的互动中也是如此。
So he could have deep empathy with patients and try to imagine himself, you know, these strange otherworldly conditions, right?
这样他就可以对病人产生深刻的同情，并尝试想象自己，你知道，这些奇怪的超凡脱俗的情况，对吗？
Like the patient from Mars, or these other patients that he described who had very specific pathologies that were totally explainable as arising out of brain lesions.
就像来自火星的病人，或者他描述的其他病人，他们有非常特殊的病理，完全可以解释为脑部病变引起的。
Yeah, he was better at that than most other people.
是的，他比大多数其他人更擅长这一点。
Trying to imagine what is it, for example, to live in the eternal present, right?
例如，尝试想象生活在永恒的当下是什么，对吧？
He had one patient who had this profound amnesia, but he could still...
他有一位患有严重失忆症的病人，但他仍然可以……
He always lived back in the...
他总是住在...
I can't remember now.
我现在记不起来了。
Christof Koch: 20 years earlier, and his entire world, his entire memory stopped 20 years earlier, and that's how he lived.
克里斯托夫·科赫：20年前，他的整个世界、他的全部记忆都在20年前停止了，这就是他的生活方式。
And it looks crazy, but once you understand that, it makes perfect sense how he responded.
这看起来很疯狂，但一旦你明白了这一点，他的反应就完全合理了。
So we each have a bespoke reality, right?
所以我们每个人都有一个定制的现实，对吗？
So you have slightly different receptors, you may have different color receptors, you may have different taste receptors.
所以你的感受器略有不同，你可能有不同的颜色感受器，你可能有不同的味觉感受器。
You have a certainly different experience from me, right?
你的经历肯定和我不同，对吧？
You grew up in a different environment.
你在不同的环境中长大。
So, it's not easy to get into someone else's head, although some people can do it.
所以，进入别人的头脑并不容易，尽管有些人可以做到。
Actors, for example, can try to do it, right?
比如说演员，可以尝试一下，对吧？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: The method acting, right?
克里斯托夫·科赫：表演的方法，对吧？
Where you totally try to adopt the point of view of the character you're trying to play.
你完全尝试采用你要扮演的角色的观点。
But of course, that's much more difficult for other animals that share or we may share a close evolutionary history, like with all mammals, but that have very different...
但当然，对于其他动物来说，这要困难得多，因为它们与所有哺乳动物一样，或者我们可能共享相似的进化历史，但它们有很大不同......
You know, that may have infrared sensors, or they have a much more potent sense of smell, and how do we...
你知道，它们可能有红外传感器，或者它们有更强大的嗅觉，我们如何......
That have a different motor system, that hangs from the ceiling, right?
它有一个不同的电机系统，悬挂在天花板上，对吗？
Christof Koch: So how do we imagine doing that?
克里斯托夫·科赫：那么我们如何想象这样做呢？
But I think it is possible.
但我认为这是可能的。
It's challenging of...
这是具有挑战性的...
And of course, it's this classical essay by Thomas Nagel, "What Is It Like to Be a Bat?" right?
当然，这是托马斯·内格尔的这篇经典文章“成为一只蝙蝠是什么感觉？”正确的？
And his position, this American philosopher says, "Well, we can never truly know what it is like to be a bat, but I think we can approximate it." I can't really ever know what is it like to be Andrew Huberman, right?
这位美国哲学家说，他的立场是：“好吧，我们永远无法真正知道作为一只蝙蝠是什么样子，但我认为我们可以近似它。”我真的永远不知道成为安德鲁·胡伯曼是什么感觉，对吧？
But I can try to imagine it.
但我可以试着想象一下。
And you know, this is what empathy is, right?
你知道，这就是同理心，对吗？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: Trying to feel like you, and trying to realize that we're all conscious beings, we all are bookended between two eternities.
克里斯托夫·科赫：试图感觉像你一样，并试图意识到我们都是有意识的存在，我们都被限制在两个永恒之间。
And so, in some sense, we're very, very similar, and the thing that divide us are really tiny subsets of all the things that we share, including with cats and dogs and elephants and squids, and everything else on the tree of life.
因此，从某种意义上说，我们非常非常相似，而我们之间的区别实际上是我们共有的所有事物的微小子集，包括猫、狗、大象和鱿鱼，以及生命树上的其他一切。
Andrew Huberman: Before we talk about your experience with DMT and psychedelics more generally, I wonder to what extent, you know, changing our consciousness is possible in a very directed way.
Andrew Huberman：在我们更广泛地谈论您对 DMT 和致幻剂的体验之前，我想知道在多大程度上可以以非常直接的方式改变我们的意识。
So, what I'm referring to here is, for instance, a lot of therapies, whether or not it's a cognitive behavioral therapy, or it's MDMA-assisted psychotherapy for PTSD, or whether or not it's just really trying to get more REM sleep each night so that you can unload the emotional weight of previous day experiences, which seems to be a hallmark of REM sleep...
所以，我在这里指的是，例如，很多疗法，无论是认知行为疗法，还是针对 PTSD 的 MDMA 辅助心理疗法，或者是否只是真的试图每晚获得更多的快速眼动睡眠，以便你可以卸下前一天经历的情绪负担，这似乎是快速眼动睡眠的标志……
Many people accumulate experiences that they feel either define them or burden them; this is very common, in fact, and they would like to live the remaining portion of their life, however long, without the emotional load.
许多人积累了一些经验，他们觉得这些经验要么定义了他们，要么给他们带来了负担。事实上，这种情况很常见，他们希望在没有情感负担的情况下度过余生，无论时间有多长。
Andrew Huberman: They don't necessarily want to forget the experience, but they want to remove the emotional load.
安德鲁·休伯曼：他们不一定想忘记这段经历，但他们想消除情感负担。
And it seems like, in pathogens like MDMA, in proper clinical settings, can help do that.
在适当的临床环境下，像 MDMA 这样的病原体似乎可以帮助做到这一点。
That proper cognitive behavioral therapy can help people really talk through and work through, maybe have a cathartic experience, but unload the emotional component of the experience.
正确的认知行为疗法可以帮助人们真正地交谈和解决问题，也许有一种宣泄的体验，但卸下体验中的情感成分。
So what I'm referring to here are things bad.
所以我这里指的是不好的事情。
But it could be positive things like the day that your child was born, or something where you're trying to update your conscious experience of life going forward and in the present by way of very deliberate tailoring of your memories.
但它也可能是积极的事情，比如你孩子出生的那一天，或者你试图通过非常刻意地定制你的记忆来更新你未来和现在生活的有意识体验的事情。
Do you think this is possible?
你认为这可能吗？
Christof Koch: Of course, yeah.
克里斯托夫·科赫：当然，是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Christof Koch: And you just gave me an example.
克里斯托夫·科赫：你刚刚给了我一个例子。
Your experience of VR and realizing what it is to have a Black skin compared to a white skin, right?
您对 VR 的体验并意识到黑皮肤与白皮肤相比是什么感觉，对吗？
This was clearly a beneficial experience that enables you to be more emphatic with other people, right?
这显然是一次有益的经历，它使你能够更加强调与他人的关系，对吧？
And try to better understand what they mean when they talk about 'explicit' or 'implicit' racism, right?
当他们谈论“明显”或“隐性”种族主义时，尝试更好地理解他们的意思，对吧？
And it changed you profoundly, and you're telling me this happened when?
它深刻地改变了你，你告诉我这发生在什么时候？
2000 and...
2000 年和...
Andrew Huberman: This was probably 2017.
Andrew Huberman：这可能是 2017 年。
Christof Koch: All right.
克里斯托夫·科赫：好的。
So, you know, that's eight years ago, right?
所以，你知道，那是八年前的事了，对吧？
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: So clearly, it lasted.
克里斯托夫·科赫：很明显，它持续了。
Christof Koch: So, I think for most conditions, we can certainly improve them.
Christof Koch：所以，我认为对于大多数情况，我们当然可以改进它们。
You have to believe that you can change, right?
你必须相信你可以改变，对吗？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: So if you're being told all the stories, "It's all the system.
克里斯托夫·科赫：所以如果你被告知所有的故事，“这都是系统的问题。
There's nothing you can do.
你无能为力。
It's just hopeless.
简直是无望了。
You can just, you know, take this pill and suffer through to the end of your days."
你知道，你只需服用这颗药丸，就可以忍受到生命的最后一刻。”
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: That, I think, is highly counterproductive.
克里斯托夫·科赫：我认为，这会适得其反。
No, you have to believe, "I'm an active agent of my own mind.
不，你必须相信，“我是我自己思想的积极推动者。
I can shape my reality," I would call it my perception box, with various ways, either talk therapy or psychedelic therapy, or some other therapy.
我可以塑造我的现实，”我将其称为我的感知盒，可以通过多种方式进行，无论是谈话疗法还是迷幻疗法，或者其他疗法。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: It requires a lot of work.
克里斯托夫·科赫：这需要做很多工作。
It doesn't come sort of for free, right?
它不是免费的，对吧？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: At the end of the day, I'm still left, let's say, with my traumatic memory, but now I can realize, 'Okay, I had this bad experience, but it doesn't have to define me.
克里斯托夫·科赫：归根结底，我仍然留下了创伤记忆，但现在我可以意识到，‘好吧，我有过这段糟糕的经历，但它不必定义我。
I can go on past it.' And there are various ways we can talk about that this can be achieved.
我可以继续过去。我们可以通过多种方式来讨论实现这一目标。
Absolutely.
绝对的。
I do believe in the malleability of the human mind, even in older people.
我确实相信人类思想的可塑性，即使是老年人。
In almost every condition, you can, but maybe except for the most extreme, you can change your outlook on life if you really want to.
几乎在所有情况下，你都可以，但也许除了最极端的情况外，如果你真的愿意，你可以改变你的人生观。
That's one issue, right?
这是一个问题，对吧？
Christof Koch: It's a little bit of trying to convince somebody who's an alcoholic that they should stop drinking until they have the realization, "Okay, I don't want to land in the gutter anymore.
克里斯托夫·科赫：这有点像试图说服酗酒者应该停止饮酒，直到他们意识到，“好吧，我不想再陷入困境了。
I don't wanna wake up at, you know, 8:00 AM in the morning, drunk outside my house.
我不想早上 8:00 醒来，在屋外喝得醉醺醺的。
I wanna change." Then you can change.
我想改变。”然后你就可以改变。
And, you know, 2,000 years of therapies, of all sorts of things...
而且，你知道，2000 年来的各种疗法......
Take Alcoholics Anonymous, right?
以戒酒互诫协会为例，对吧？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: The first thing you do, you have to recognize that, "I am an alcoholic."
克里斯托夫·科赫：你做的第一件事，你必须认识到，“我是一个酒鬼。”
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: And then I can begin...
克里斯托夫·科赫：然后我就可以开始了……
Before I do that, there isn't really a hope, but once I do that, I can change.
在我这样做之前，我真的没有什么希望，但一旦我这样做了，我就可以改变。
It may be difficult, it may be arduous, but you can change.
这可能很困难，可能很艰辛，但你可以改变。
Andrew Huberman: We've known for a long time that there are things that we can do to improve our sleep, and that includes things that we can take, things like magnesium threonate, theanine, chamomile extract, and glycine, along with lesser-known things like saffron and valerian root.
Andrew Huberman：我们很早就知道我们可以采取一些措施来改善睡眠，其中包括我们可以服用的东西，例如苏糖酸镁、茶氨酸、洋甘菊提取物和甘氨酸，以及一些不太为人所知的东西，例如藏红花和缬草根。
These are all clinically supported ingredients that can help you fall asleep, stay asleep, and wake up feeling more refreshed.
这些都是经过临床支持的成分，可以帮助您入睡、保持睡眠状态，并且醒来时感觉更加神清气爽。
I'm excited to share that our longtime sponsor AG1 just created a new product called AGZ, a nightly drink designed to help you get better sleep and have you wake up feeling super refreshed.
我很高兴与大家分享，我们的长期赞助商 AG1 刚刚推出了一款名为 AGZ 的新产品，这是一种夜间饮料，旨在帮助您获得更好的睡眠，让您醒来时感觉神清气爽。
Over the past few years, I've worked with the team at AG1 to help create this new AGZ formula.
在过去的几年里，我与 AG1 的团队合作，帮助创建了这个新的 AGZ 公式。
It has the best sleep-supporting compounds in exactly the right ratios in one easy-to-drink mix.
它在一种易于饮用的混合物中以完全正确的比例含有最好的睡眠支持化合物。
This removes all the complexity of trying to forge the vast landscape of supplements focused on sleep, and figuring out the right dosages and which ones to take for you.
这消除了尝试打造专注于睡眠的补充剂的广阔前景以及确定正确剂量和适合您服用哪些补充剂的所有复杂性。
AGZ is, to my knowledge, the most comprehensive sleep supplement on the market.
据我所知，AGZ 是市场上最全面的睡眠补充剂。
Andrew Huberman: I take it 30 to 60 minutes before sleep, it's delicious by the way, and it dramatically increases both the quality and the depth of my sleep.
Andrew Huberman：我在睡前 30 到 60 分钟服用它，顺便说一句，它很美味，而且它极大地提高了我的睡眠质量和深度。
I know that both from my subjective experience of my sleep and because I track my sleep.
我知道这一点，既来自我对睡眠的主观体验，也因为我跟踪了我的睡眠。
I'm excited for everyone to try this new AGZ formulation and to enjoy the benefits of better sleep.
我很高兴每个人都能尝试这种新的 AGZ 配方并享受更好睡眠的好处。
AGZ is available in chocolate, chocolate mint, and mixed berry flavors, and as I mentioned before, they're all extremely delicious.
AGZ 有巧克力、巧克力薄荷和混合浆果口味，正如我之前提到的，它们都非常美味。
My favorite of the three has to be, I think, chocolate mint, but I really like them all.
我认为这三者中我最喜欢的是巧克力薄荷，但我真的很喜欢它们。
If you'd like to try AGZ, go to drinkagz.com/huberman to get a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AGZ，请访问 Drinkagz.com/huberman 以获得特别优惠。
Again, that's drinkagz.com/huberman.
再说一遍，这是 Drinkagz.com/huberman。
Andrew Huberman: Today's episode is also brought to us by Helix Sleep.
Andrew Huberman：今天的节目也是由 Helix Sleep 为我们带来的。
Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep needs.
Helix Sleep 生产根据您独特的睡眠需求定制的床垫和枕头。
Now, I've spoken many times before on this and other podcasts about the fact that getting a great night's sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance.
现在，我之前已经在这个播客和其他播客中多次谈到这样一个事实：睡个好觉是心理健康、身体健康和表现的基础。
Now, the mattress you sleep on makes a huge difference in the quality of sleep that you get each night.
现在，您所睡的床垫会对您每晚的睡眠质量产生巨大影响。
Andrew Huberman: How soft it is or how firm it is all play into your comfort, and need to be tailored to your unique sleep needs.
Andrew Huberman：它的柔软度或硬度都会影响您的舒适度，并且需要根据您独特的睡眠需求进行定制。
If you go to the Helix website, you can take a brief two-minute quiz, and it will ask you questions such as, "Do you sleep on your back, your side, or your stomach?
如果你访问 Helix 网站，你可以做一个两分钟的简短测验，它会问你一些问题，比如“你睡的是仰卧、侧卧还是俯卧？
Do you tend to run hot or cold during the night?" Things of that sort.
你晚上会感到热还是冷？”之类的事情。
Maybe you know the answers to those questions, maybe you don't.
也许您知道这些问题的答案，也许您不知道。
Either way, Helix will match you to the ideal mattress for you.
无论哪种方式，Helix 都会为您匹配理想的床垫。
Andrew Huberman: For me, that turned out to be the Dusk mattress.
Andrew Huberman：对我来说，这就是 Dusk 床垫。
I started sleeping on a Dusk mattress about three and a half years ago, and it's been far and away the best sleep that I've ever had.
大约三年半前，我开始睡在 Dusk 床垫上，这无疑是我睡过的最好的睡眠。
If you'd like to try Helix Sleep, you can go to helixsleep.com/huberman, take that two-minute sleep quiz, and Helix will match you to a mattress that's customized to you.
如果您想尝试 Helix Sleep，可以访问 helixsleep.com/huberman，参加两分钟的睡眠测验，Helix 将为您匹配适合您的床垫。
Right now, Helix is giving up to 27% off all mattress orders.
目前，Helix 为所有床垫订单提供高达 27% 的折扣。
Again, that's helixsleep.com/huberman to get up to 27% off.
再次强调，helixsleep.com/huberman 提供高达 27% 的折扣。
Andrew Huberman: It's interesting that you bring up 12-step and AA in particular because the next step, besides acknowledging the problem, at least in AA, is to acknowledge an inability to solve it oneself, and a giving over of some of the process of eliminating alcohol to another, what they refer to as 'higher power.' Some people call this 'God,' some people call it 'Jesus,' some people, you know...
Andrew Huberman：有趣的是，你特别提出了 12 步骤和 AA，因为下一步，除了承认问题之外，至少在 AA 中，是承认自己无法解决问题，并将一些消除酒精的过程交给另一个人，他们称之为“更高的权力”。有些人称其为“上帝”，有些人称其为“耶稣”，有些人，你知道......
Andrew Huberman: But it's more or less a requirement of AA that you agree that you can't do it alone, and you can't do it just with other humans, but you need other humans.
Andrew Huberman：但这或多或少是 AA 的一个要求，你同意你不能独自完成这件事，你不能只与其他人一起完成这件事，但你需要其他人。
They're necessary, but not sufficient.
它们是必要的，但还不够。
The recognition of the problem, other humans, and community are necessary but not sufficient, but this kind of externalization, like you need help from outside the self, that's not from humans.
对问题、其他人类和社区的认识是必要的，但还不够，但这种外在化，就像你需要来自自我之外的帮助，那不是来自人类。
Very interesting.
非常有趣。
Andrew Huberman: They don't say, "You need to go get a dog." They don't say, "You need to commune with nature." They say, "You need to embrace a higher power." It's very interesting given the effectiveness of AA.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：他们不会说，“你需要去养一只狗。”他们不会说：“你需要与自然交流。”他们说：“你需要拥抱更高的力量。”考虑到 AA 的有效性，这非常有趣。
It's one of the most successful ways for people to continually avoid alcohol.
这是人们持续戒酒的最成功的方法之一。
Christof Koch: It's true.
克里斯托夫·科赫：确实如此。
I acknowledge that.
我承认这一点。
I personally wouldn't say it requires divine intervention because I'm not sure there is such a divine entity that could intervene in this.
我个人不会说这需要神圣的干预，因为我不确定是否有这样一个神圣的实体可以干预这件事。
But acknowledging and also acknowledging that it's, "I can't do it by myself.
但承认并承认这一点，“我自己做不到。
I would say at least I would need community.
我想说至少我需要社区。
I would need help from others." Again, you have to acknowledge that.
我需要别人的帮助。”你必须再次承认这一点。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Well, maybe it's the opening up of space that-
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯，也许是空间的开放——
Christof Koch: The willingness.
克里斯托夫·科赫：意愿。
The willingness.
意愿。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
And maybe it's, "I couldn't do it by myself until now." And in order for there to be a different future visualized, maybe there is a sort of creating of space.
也许是，“直到现在我自己都做不到。”为了想象一个不同的未来，也许需要创造一种空间。
I mean, this is actually probably a good opportunity for us to talk a little bit about the neurobiology underlying consciousness, and then we'll get back to plasticity.
我的意思是，这实际上可能是我们讨论一下意识背后的神经生物学的好机会，然后我们将回到可塑性。
Andrew Huberman: You know, we're both neuroscientists.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你知道，我们都是神经科学家。
And for many years, '80s and '90s and even prior, the emphasis was on brain areas.
多年来，80 年代、90 年代甚至更早的时期，重点都是大脑区域。
Amygdala, fear.
杏仁核，恐惧。
Hippocampus, memory.
海马体，记忆。
Prefrontal cortex, decision-making.
前额皮质，决策。
This kind of thing.
这种事。
And of course, there's been this beautiful transition to a focus more on circuitry, areas and networks, activated more or less over time.
当然，随着时间的推移，这种美好的转变或多或少地被激活，更多地关注电路、区域和网络。
Can we look to particular networks or network phenomena, circuit activation patterns, and say, "That's the origin of consciousness"?
我们能否研究特定的网络或网络现象、电路激活模式，并说“这就是意识的起源”？
Or is that no longer a meaningful pursuit?
或者这不再是一个有意义的追求？
Christof Koch: Yes.
克里斯托夫·科赫：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Why did I have a feeling you were going to answer that way?
Andrew Huberman：为什么我感觉你会这样回答？
Yeah.
是的。
Christof Koch: So, A, there are certain enabling conditions, okay?
Christof Koch：所以，A，有一定的有利条件，好吗？
One enabling condition, your heart has to beat because if your heart doesn't beat, it doesn't supply oxygen to your brain, and you will "lose consciousness" within eight to 10 seconds, okay?
一个有利条件是，你的心脏必须跳动，因为如果你的心脏不跳动，它就无法为你的大脑提供氧气，你就会在八到十秒内“失去知觉”，好吗？
Same thing in the brainstem.
脑干也有同样的情况。
Your brainstem has to be active to perfuse the rest of the forebrain with noradrenaline and dopamine, all of that.
你的脑干必须活跃才能向前脑的其余部分灌注去甲肾上腺素和多巴胺，所有这些。
But those don't provide the content.
但那些不提供内容。
You don't love or you hate or see with your brainstem, with your locus coeruleus, for instance, okay?
你不会用你的脑干，比如你的蓝斑来爱、恨或看，好吗？
Christof Koch: So the circuits that convey experience in us, I'm not saying it's the same in other species, particularly non-mammals, but in us that grew up with a normal brain.
克里斯托夫·科赫：所以，我并不是说我们身上传递经验的回路在其他物种中也一样，特别是非哺乳动物，而是说我们在成长过程中拥有正常的大脑。
Again, I'm not talking about people who never...
再说一次，我不是在谈论那些从未...
You know, anencephalic individuals.
你知道，无脑儿。
That's very different.
那是非常不同的。
Christof Koch: So, for most of us, we grew up with a normal brain, and I think the relevant circuits are the corticothalamic circuits.
克里斯托夫·科赫：所以，对于我们大多数人来说，我们在成长过程中拥有正常的大脑，我认为相关的回路是皮质丘脑回路。
And in fact, we can exploit this knowledge now to test whether someone is conscious, because in principle...
事实上，我们现在可以利用这些知识来测试某人是否有意识，因为原则上......
So, what you can do, you can knock the brain using a technique called 'transcranial magnetic stimulation,' right?
那么，你能做什么，你可以使用一种叫做“经颅磁刺激”的技术来敲击大脑，对吗？
And then you listen to its echo using a high-density EEG net, okay?
然后你用高密度脑电图网络听它的回声，好吗？
And you can see if you knock here or here, depending on where exactly you knock, you get these up and down states.
你可以看到，如果你敲这里或这里，根据你敲的具体位置，你会得到这些上下状态。
And if they last for, let's say, 200, 300, 400 milliseconds, and they occur at different places, you can formally compute what's called 'brain complexity' using Lempel-Ziv complexity.
如果它们持续 200、300、400 毫秒，并且它们发生在不同的地方，那么您可以使用 Lempel-Ziv 复杂性正式计算所谓的“大脑复杂性”。
Christof Koch: And you can show when everyone who's either awake like us, or we're asleep in a dream state, or we're on ketamine, where we're dissociated...
克里斯托夫·科赫：你可以展示当每个像我们一样醒着的人，或者我们在梦中睡着的时候，或者我们在服用氯胺酮时，我们是分离的......
In all those cases, the brain complexity's high.
在所有这些情况下，大脑的复杂性都很高。
It's above a threshold.
它高于阈值。
However, when you're in a non-REM sleep, when you're in a state of deep sleep, or you're anesthetized, or, of course, in the most extreme case, you're brain dead, then the brain complexity is very low.
然而，当你处于非快速眼动睡眠时，当你处于深度睡眠状态，或者你处于麻醉状态，或者当然，在最极端的情况下，你脑死亡时，那么大脑的复杂性就非常低了。
Christof Koch: And in animals, we've even done at the Allen Institute, this experiment where we can systematically manipulate the corticothalamic cortical circuits to show that it is this circuit that is really the one that's critically involved in consciousness.
克里斯托夫·科赫：在动物身上，我们甚至在艾伦研究所进行了这项实验，我们可以系统地操纵皮质丘脑皮层回路，以表明正是这个回路确实与意识密切相关。
In fact, so what we discovered over the last 10 years, there's this very abrupt threshold in brain complexity defined using this technique where...
事实上，我们在过去 10 年中发现，使用这种技术定义的大脑复杂性存在一个非常突然的阈值，其中......
So, there's a thing called 'Perturbational Complexity Index.'
所以，有一种叫做“扰动复杂性指数”的东西。
Christof Koch: It's a single number, PCI between zero and one.
Christof Koch：这是一个数字，PCI 介于 0 和 1 之间。
Zero means there's no complexity.
零意味着没有复杂性。
It's flat like in a dead brain, flat line.
它像死脑一样扁平，扁平的线。
One means every electrode is totally independent from anyone else.
一意味着每个电极完全独立于其他电极。
Never happens in a real brain.
在真实的大脑中永远不会发生。
In a real brain, typically a wake brain, you get things between 0.65 and 0.8, let's say.
比方说，在真实的大脑（通常是清醒的大脑）中，您得到的值在 0.65 到 0.8 之间。
There's a sharp threshold at 0.31.
0.31 处有一个尖锐的阈值。
Anyone that we've had...
我们曾经有过的任何人...
No, no, there are 300 people, both patients and normal people, that have been measured...
不不，测量了300人，有病人，也有正常人……
If you're above the threshold of 0.31, you're conscious.
如果您的值高于 0.31 的阈值，则您是有意识的。
If you're below this threshold, you're unconscious.
如果你低于这个阈值，你就会失去知觉。
Andrew Huberman: Hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Christof Koch: That probably means there's this non-linear...
克里斯托夫·科赫：这可能意味着存在这种非线性......
Just like Hodgkin-Huxley, there's probably a non-linear circuit mechanism that, once the circuit is intact, it's sufficient to support consciousness.
就像霍奇金-赫胥黎一样，可能存在一种非线性电路机制，一旦电路完好无损，就足以支持意识。
Christof Koch: Now you can ask, "Well, this is all very nice.
克里斯托夫·科赫：现在你可以问，“嗯，这一切都很好。
Why is this relevant?" Well, it is relevant in the following case, something that could happen to any of us.
为什么这是相关的？”嗯，它与以下情况相关，这种情况可能发生在我们任何人身上。
I step out here onto the Pacific Coast Highway.
我走出这里，踏上太平洋海岸高速公路。
I get hit by a car, okay?
我被车撞了好吗？
I'm now unconscious.
我现在已经失去知觉了。
I get to the ICU, whether that's a traumatic brain injury, or cardiac arrest, or hemorrhage.
我会去重症监护室，无论是脑外伤、心脏骤停还是出血。
I'm unconscious.
我失去知觉了。
I'm like this...
我就是这样的...
I might be aroused, so you know, my eyes are open.
我可能会被唤醒，所以你知道，我的眼睛是睁开的。
I'm now what used to be called 'vegetative state,' what's now more often called 'behavioral unresponsive state.' Okay?
我现在处于过去被称为“植物人状态”的状态，现在更常被称为“行为无反应状态”。好吧？
And there are thousands of these people worldwide, because with proper care, with proper nursing care, you can stay in this state for weeks or months, or in the case of Terri Schiavo, 14 years.
全世界有成千上万这样的人，因为只要有适当的护理和护理，你可以保持这种状态数周或数月，或者以 Terri Schiavo 为例，可以保持 14 年。
Okay?
好吧？
Christof Koch: Furthermore what happens, typically, in most cases, after four to five days, the doctors will talk with their loved ones, "Is this what he would have wanted?"
克里斯托夫·科赫：此外，在大多数情况下，通常情况下，四到五天后，医生会与他们的亲人交谈，“这是他想要的吗？”
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: And 70% to 90% of the time, they decide no, this is not what you wanted, and you withdraw life-sustaining therapy.
Christof Koch：70% 到 90% 的情况下，他们会决定不，这不是你想要的，然后你就撤回维持生命的治疗。
But we now know that 25% of these patients have what's called 'covert consciousness.' They're there.
但我们现在知道，这些患者中有 25% 具有所谓的“隐性意识”。他们就在那里。
We know this because, for example, some of these patients you can...
我们知道这一点是因为，例如，其中一些患者可以......
There was a big study last year in the "New England Journal of Medicine," made a front page of "The New York Times," where you can show that 25% of these patients can still voluntarily up and down regulate their motor cortex in response to a command.
去年《新英格兰医学杂志》上有一项大型研究，登上了《纽约时报》的头版，研究表明，其中 25% 的患者仍然可以根据命令自主地上下调节运动皮层。
Clench your fist for 30 seconds, relax it, clench your fist for 30 seconds, relax it.
握拳30秒，放松，握拳30秒，放松。
So these people that, otherwise, when you ask them, "Sir, can you hear me?
所以这些人，否则，当你问他们：“先生，你能听到我说话吗？
Can you track my finger?"
你能追踪我的手指吗？”
Christof Koch: Can you pinch them very hard to see do they do a withdraw of limb reflex, they don't do any of that.
克里斯托夫·科赫：你能用力捏一下他们，看看他们是否会进行肢体反射，他们什么都不做。
So they have what's called a Glasgow Coma Scale, or a very low GSCR Scale, but they still seem to be conscious.
所以他们有所谓的格拉斯哥昏迷量表，或者非常低的 GSCR 量表，但他们似乎仍然有意识。
They either have high brain complexity, or they can modulate their brain.
他们要么具有高度的大脑复杂性，要么可以调节他们的大脑。
So, this is now the first time ever that we have a practical way in people that cannot respond, that clinically, behaviorally are considered unresponsive, first to convince the family that although their loved one doesn't respond, doesn't mean that they're unconscious, and then try to see, "Well, okay, so this person is conscious, can we now give particular treatments to enable them to recover?"
所以，这是我们第一次对那些无法做出反应的人采取一种实用的方法，即临床上、行为上被认为是无反应的人，首先要说服家人，虽然他们的亲人没有反应，但这并不意味着他们失去了知觉，然后试着看看，“好吧，那么这个人是有意识的，我们现在可以给予特殊的治疗来使他们康复吗？”
Christof Koch: We also have some pilot data to show that those patients that are conscious, compared to the patient that are truly unconscious in this behavioral wakefulness state, that they have a better chance of recovery.
克里斯托夫·科赫：我们还有一些试点数据表明，与在这种行为清醒状态下真正失去意识的患者相比，那些有意识的患者有更好的康复机会。
Andrew Huberman: Incredible.
安德鲁·休伯曼：难以置信。
This 0.31 you said is the threshold?
你说的这个0.31就是阈值？
On the one hand, it seems so reductionist.
一方面，它看起来很还原论。
On the other hand, it makes total sense, right?
另一方面，这完全有道理，对吧？
I mean, you need enough coherent brain activity to be aware of self, be aware of what's going on around you, and respond to it.
我的意思是，你需要足够连贯的大脑活动来认识自我，了解周围发生的事情，并做出反应。
Below that, like in falling asleep or being asleep, you don't have that except in dreams, of course.
在此之下，就像入睡或正在睡觉一样，当然，除了在梦中之外，你不会有这种情况。
And it sounds like a wonderful clinical tool, because this is obviously many people's worst fear, that somebody's in there, you take them off life support, and they would have emerged.
这听起来像是一个很棒的临床工具，因为这显然是许多人最担心的，有人在那里，你把他们的生命维持系统撤掉，他们就会出现。
You mentioned Terri Schiavo was the last...
你提到特丽·夏沃是最后一个……
Christof Koch: Schiavo.
克里斯托夫·科赫：夏沃。
Andrew Huberman: Schiavo.
安德鲁·休伯曼：夏沃。
Christof Koch: Terri Schiavo.
克里斯托夫·科赫：特丽·夏沃。
Andrew Huberman: Can you just remind people what the outcome of that situation was?
安德鲁·胡伯曼：你能提醒人们这种情况的结果是什么吗？
Christof Koch: Yeah, so this was a case back in 1998 or 2000 under President Bush.
克里斯托夫·科赫：是的，这是 1998 年或 2000 年布什总统领导下的一个案例。
She had a cardiac arrest, where the heart was started up again.
她心脏骤停，但心脏又重新跳动起来。
She was in this state for 14 years.
她就处于这种状态一待就是14年。
And then there was this fight between her husband, who said that she didn't want to be in this state, and her parents, that were profoundly devout that said, "No, we want to keep her alive."
然后她的丈夫和她的父母之间发生了争执，丈夫说她不想处于这种状态，她的父母非常虔诚，他们说：“不，我们想让她活下去。”
Andrew Huberman: I see.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我明白了。
Christof Koch: And went back and forth, and finally, the court allowed her a withdrawal of life support.
克里斯托夫·科赫（Christof Koch）：反复讨论，最后，法庭允许她撤回生命维持系统。
So she died after 14 years.
于是14年后她就去世了。
Andrew Huberman: I see.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我明白了。
Christof Koch: And the analysis, the postmortem showed in her case, her brain was totally shrunk.
克里斯托夫·科赫：尸检分析表明，她的大脑完全萎缩了。
So in her case, you know, if we didn't do this procedure, then we didn't have it, but clearly, she was probably one of the 75% of patients that are truly unconscious.
所以在她的例子中，你知道，如果我们不做这个手术，那么我们就没有它，但显然，她可能是 75% 真正失去知觉的患者之一。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: Yeah, so it's important to get this into the ICU.
Christof Koch：是的，所以将其送入重症监护室很重要。
So, in fact, I started a company called Intrinsic Powers because it's the intrinsic powers of the brain that mediate consciousness, and we're now trying...
所以，事实上，我创办了一家名为“内在力量”的公司，因为大脑的内在力量可以调节意识，而我们现在正在尝试......
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: We met with the FDA, and they said, "Well, this is all cool, but you really need to do a clinical trial." So we're trying to fundraise now, so if anyone in the audience here is willing to invest in this, to get this procedure into the ICU so we can tell for sure, is this patient conscious, or they're just non-responsive?
Christof Koch：我们会见了 FDA，他们说：“嗯，这很酷，但你确实需要进行临床试验。”所以我们现在正在努力筹集资金，所以如果这里的观众中有人愿意投资于此，将这个程序放入重症监护室，这样我们就可以确定，这个病人是有意识的，还是只是没有反应？
Because those...
因为那些...
So, it pertains to what we said early on.
所以，这与我们之前所说的有关。
The fact that you don't behave is not the same as the fact that you're unconscious.
你不表现的事实与你失去知觉的事实不同。
Those are two different things.
这是两件不同的事情。
Andrew Huberman: Very, very interesting, and very important work.
Andrew Huberman：非常非常有趣且非常重要的工作。
Has there ever been an example in the reverse direction where somebody was in one of these, what used to be called 'vegetative states,' right, and then emerged after, say, a period of six months or a year, and is living perfectly normally in the world saying, "Thank you so much for not taking me off life support?"
有没有一个相反的例子，有人处于其中一种状态，过去被称为“植物人状态”，对吧，然后在六个月或一年后出现，并且在世界上完全正常地生活，说：“非常感谢你没有让我脱离生命维持系统？”
Christof Koch: Yes.
克里斯托夫·科赫：是的。
So, A, typically people don't...
所以，A，通常人们不会...
When they do recover, they typically don't have explicit memory, because again, memory is something different than actually being, you know, conscious experience, just like most of us don't remember our dreams.
当他们康复时，他们通常没有外显记忆，因为记忆与实际的有意识的体验不同，就像我们大多数人不记得我们的梦一样。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: We're clearly conscious, but we don't remember them.
克里斯托夫·科赫：我们显然是有意识的，但我们不记得它们。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: But they are there.
克里斯托夫·科赫：但他们就在那里。
There's a study now systematically at Harvard that tries to explore that, and some people explicitly say that.
哈佛大学现在有一项系统的研究试图对此进行探索，并且有些人明确表示了这一点。
In fact, there's one really interesting case where the person who then recovered, a young guy.
事实上，有一个非常有趣的案例，后来康复的人是一位年轻人。
First, he was upset that they didn't follow his explicit instruction to terminate life, but then, of course, later on, now he's relatively normal, he was very happy that they saved him.
首先，他因为他们没有按照他明确的指示终止生命而感到不安，但后来，当然，后来，现在他相对正常了，他很高兴他们救了他。
Christof Koch: Yeah, so we can pull back, you know, particularly with modern technology, 9/11, et cetera, rescue helicopters, we can pull back people from the brink of death, but that may not be the same as having them actually conscious.
克里斯托夫·科赫：是的，所以我们可以撤退，你知道，特别是利用现代技术，9/11，等等，救援直升机，我们可以将人们从死亡边缘拉回来，但这可能与让他们真正有意识不同。
So, the medical community is now beginning to recognize this idea of covert consciousness, which is something that was only really realized over the last 10 years.
因此，医学界现在开始认识到隐性意识的想法，这是在过去十年里才真正实现的。
Andrew Huberman: Amazing.
安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。
Well, I turn 50 in two weeks, and I'm working on my will, something I never thought I would do, but here I am doing it.
嗯，两周后我就 50 岁了，我正在按照自己的意愿努力，这是我从未想过我会做的事情，但我现在正在这样做。
So I'm going to include a section on this 0.31 threshold, but also maybe perhaps, pending new technologies.
因此，我将包含一个关于 0.31 阈值的部分，但也可能是悬而未决的新技术。
Christof Koch: Medical directive.
克里斯托夫·科赫：医疗指令。
Christof Koch: Yes, that's the trouble because-
克里斯托夫·科赫：是的，这就是麻烦，因为-
Andrew Huberman: Right, you don't know what'll be available in a few years.
Andrew Huberman：是的，你不知道几年后会出现什么。
Christof Koch: You don't know...
克里斯托夫·科赫：你不知道……
yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Right.
安德鲁·休伯曼：对。
Christof Koch: And the other thing is called this 'disability bias.' So, let's say...
克里斯托夫·科赫：另一件事被称为“残疾偏见”。那么，让我们说...
You look like a person who's highly active, right?
你看起来是一个很活跃的人，对吧？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: So you probably cannot imagine being in a state where you can't move anymore.
克里斯托夫·科赫：所以你可能无法想象处于无法移动的状态。
Andrew Huberman: I mean, I've thought about it, but not in a real way.
Andrew Huberman：我的意思是，我已经考虑过这个问题，但没有真正考虑过。
I mean, I fear it.
我的意思是，我害怕它。
I wouldn't want that.
我不想那样。
I love being able to move and see, among other things, those are probably two of the most important things, movement and vision, right?
我喜欢能够移动和看到，除其他外，这可能是最重要的两件事，运动和视觉，对吧？
Christof Koch: Oh, okay.
克里斯托夫·科赫：哦，好吧。
But now you have to change your prior.
但现在你必须改变你的先验。
You've had this accident or whatever, now you are in this state.
你经历了这次事故或者其他什么，现在你就处于这种状态。
This is a given.
这是给定的。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: You're now in the state where you had a bad, whatever, car accident, and you can't move anymore, or you may not be able to see.
克里斯托夫·科赫：你现在的状态是经历了一场严重的车祸，无论如何，你都不能再动了，或者你可能看不到东西。
Now, what is it you want?
现在，你想要什么？
And to those people that you can communicate with...
对于那些你可以交流的人...
Like, they did a study in Israel with a locked-in patient, right?
比如，他们在以色列对一名被关押的病人进行了一项研究，对吧？
So these are patients that have a stroke at the level of the pons, where there are typically most of their motor commands they can't execute anymore, except, you know, some neck and some vertical eye movements.
这些患者在脑桥水平发生中风，通常他们无法再执行大部分运动命令，除了一些颈部运动和一些垂直眼球运动。
Christof Koch: And they ask them, because they can communicate.
克里斯托夫·科赫：他们会问他们，因为他们可以沟通。
And most of them, except the ones that have chronic pain, most of them want to continue to live.
他们中的大多数人，除了患有慢性疼痛的人外，大多数人都想继续活下去。
Although before, when you would have asked him, he would have said, "No. No way." And so, it's difficult with this medical directive because you don't know until you get there.
尽管以前，当你问他时，他会说：“不。没门。”所以，这个医疗指示很困难，因为直到你到达那里你才知道。
Andrew Huberman: Well, I like the answer you just gave, because it speaks to the durability of the human spirit.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯，我喜欢你刚才给出的答案，因为它说明了人类精神的持久性。
Christof Koch: Yes, the resilience.
克里斯托夫·科赫：是的，韧性。
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, the desire to keep going is pretty spectacular.
Andrew Huberman：是的，继续前进的愿望非常惊人。
Christof Koch: Yes.
克里斯托夫·科赫：是的。
Christof Koch: Yes.
克里斯托夫·科赫：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And there are amazing examples.
Andrew Huberman：有很多令人惊奇的例子。
Like I was introduced some years ago to somebody from the Special Operations community who, unfortunately, stepped on an IED and lost use of his legs.
就像几年前我被介绍给特种作战界的一个人一样，他不幸踩到了简易爆炸装置，失去了双腿的使用能力。
But he's a phenomenal surfer.
但他是一位出色的冲浪者。
Like, he literally drags him-
就像，他真的拖着他——
Christof Koch: Wow.
克里斯托夫·科赫：哇。
Andrew Huberman: And he won't let people carry his stuff down the cliffs.
安德鲁·休伯曼：他不会让人们把他的东西搬下悬崖。
Like he drags himself down to the waves, and he gets down there, and he can get up on...
就像他把自己拖到海浪里，然后他就到了那里，然后他就可以站起来......
He has prosthetics that he can use, but for partial movement on land.
他有可以使用的假肢，但只能在陆地上进行部分活动。
But he basically is on his torso, and he's an athlete.
但他基本上是在他的躯干上，而且他是一名运动员。
Christof Koch: Whoa.
克里斯托夫·科赫：哇哦。
Andrew Huberman: He's a Paralympic athlete, and serious athlete, and super driven.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：他是一名残奥会运动员，而且是认真的运动员，而且动力十足。
And when you first interact with him, you see the pictures of before and after, and this kind of thing, you go, "Oh gosh, that would be so..." But he's living in the moment.
当你第一次与他互动时，你会看到之前和之后的照片，这种事情，你会说，“哦天哪，那真是……”但他活在当下。
I mean, I'm sure he has his struggles, surely, but he's living in the moment of what's possible, and at least in his words, "The desire to persist and to continue to pursue goals is fundamental to not getting lost in the what could have been." He really exists...
我的意思是，我确信他肯定也有挣扎，但他生活在一切皆有可能的时刻，至少用他的话来说，“坚持和继续追求目标的愿望是不迷失在本来可能发生的事情中的根本。”他确实存在……
Of course, he was a former Navy SEAL, et cetera, so it's probably part and parcel with the psychology that got him there.
当然，他曾是一名前海豹突击队员等等，所以这可能是他到达那里的心理因素的重要组成部分。
But he exists in the what's possible, not what's impossible landscape most of the time, it seems.
但大多数时候，他似乎都存在于可能的境地，而不是不可能的境地。
It's pretty spectacular.
非常壮观。
Christof Koch: Yeah.
克里斯托夫·科赫：是的。
Andrew Huberman: The human will to continue to live.
安德鲁·休伯曼：人类有继续生存的意愿。
Christof Koch: The resilience.
克里斯托夫·科赫：韧性。
Andrew Huberman: I'm very struck by this brain area, the anterior mid-cingulate cortex.
Andrew Huberman：我对这个大脑区域——前中扣带皮层——感到非常震惊。
I don't know if you're familiar with it.
不知道你是否熟悉。
Christof Koch: Yes, I am.
克里斯托夫·科赫：是的，我是。
Andrew Huberman: But, right, Joe Parvizi's laboratory.
Andrew Huberman：但是，对了，Joe Parvizi 的实验室。
Christof Koch: Yeah.
克里斯托夫·科赫：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Stimulating it, people feel as if there's a challenge confronting them, and they're going to lean into it.
安德鲁·休伯曼：刺激它，人们会感觉自己面临着挑战，并且他们会倾向于解决它。
We've talked a lot about this on this podcast as a key site for plasticity of all things.
我们在这个播客上对此进行了很多讨论，作为所有事物可塑性的关键网站。
And the friction that's required, but also this element of the will to live, because it turns out the anterior mid-cingulate cortex is larger or more active in people that are the so-called 'SuperAgers' that maintain cognition.
所需要的摩擦力，也是生存意志的要素，因为事实证明，在所谓的“超级老年人”中维持认知的人中，前中扣带皮层更大或更活跃。
So-
所以——
Christof Koch: Well, there's also this phenomenon of akinetic mutism that's also found in lesions, that area where people seem to have completely lost their will to do anything at all.
克里斯托夫·科赫：嗯，在病变中也发现了这种不能动性沉默症的现象，在该区域，人们似乎完全失去了做任何事情的意愿。
They just sit there all day, and they don't say anything.
他们整天就坐在那里，什么也不说。
They've lost essentially their will to do or say anything.
他们基本上已经失去了做任何事或说任何话的意愿。
And if you inject them with dopamine or others, then sometimes they retrieve, and you ask him, "Why was it?" "I just had no desire."
如果你给他们注射多巴胺或其他东西，有时他们会恢复，你问他，“为什么会这样？” “我只是没有欲望。”
Andrew Huberman: And do we know what brain area is involved in this case?
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我们知道这个病例涉及哪个大脑区域吗？
Christof Koch: Yeah.
克里斯托夫·科赫：是的。
It's the cingulate.
这是扣带回。
Andrew Huberman: Uh-huh.
安德鲁·休伯曼： 嗯。
Christof Koch: It's part of the anterior cingulate.
克里斯托夫·科赫：它是前扣带回的一部分。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
So maybe it's the same structure.
所以也许是相同的结构。
I mean, the human will to live and to continue to evolve oneself, I mean-
我的意思是，人类生存并继续自我进化的意愿，我的意思是-
Christof Koch: May also have a physical substrate.
Christof Koch：可能还有物理基质。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
I believe it does.
我相信确实如此。
I mean, I think cingulate cortex seems to be a key hub.
我的意思是，我认为扣带皮层似乎是一个关键枢纽。
Christof Koch: Well, and so based on the study of your colleague Josef Parvizi, right, at Stanford, so we know that if you go a little bit back into the posterior cingulate, that's where you have the sense of self.
克里斯托夫·科赫：嗯，根据你在斯坦福大学的同事约瑟夫·帕尔维兹（Josef Parvizi）的研究，我们知道，如果你稍微回到后扣带回，那就是你有自我意识的地方。
If you stimulate there or in these people who have epileptic seizures in there, right, they have these weird dissociative states, or where they feel themselves floating, or they can hear themselves have a conversation, but observing themself having a conversation.
如果你刺激那里或那些癫痫发作的人那里，对吧，他们有这些奇怪的解离状态，或者他们感觉自己漂浮，或者他们可以听到自己在谈话，但观察自己在谈话。
Christof Koch: So we know some of the sense of self here.
克里斯托夫·科赫：所以我们在这里了解一些自我意识。
And we also know that doing meditation and doing psilocybin, those areas are reduced.
我们还知道，通过冥想和裸盖菇素，这些区域会减少。
So yeah, there is a footprint for everything we experience.
所以，是的，我们经历的一切都有足迹。
There is a footprint in the brain.
脑子里有一个足迹。
That doesn't mean we can reduce it to the brain.
这并不意味着我们可以将其减少到大脑。
Not at all.
一点也不。
But there is a physical neuronal correlate of it.
但它有一个物理神经元相关性。
And Francis Crick and I, of course, used to call this the 'neural correlates of consciousness,' and tried to pursue it.
当然，弗朗西斯·克里克和我曾经称之为“意识的神经关联”，并试图追求它。
Andrew Huberman: I'd like to go back into the perception box, because I'm really intrigued by this.
Andrew Huberman：我想回到感知框，因为我对此非常感兴趣。
Christof Koch: Well, you never left the perception box, because it is your construction of reality.
克里斯托夫·科赫：嗯，你从未离开过感知盒子，因为它是你对现实的构建。
Andrew Huberman: Oh, okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哦，好吧。
Well-
嗯-
Andrew Huberman: I, uh...
安德鲁·休伯曼：我，呃……
People are getting a sense of how your brain works, and I love it.
人们正在了解你的大脑是如何运作的，我喜欢它。
It's been a while since I've seen you, as I forgot how much fun it was.
好久没见到你了，我都忘了当时有多开心了。
Inside the context of the perception box, I'd like to explore something that's very relevant today.
在感知框的背景下，我想探索一些与今天非常相关的东西。
It's 9/11.
现在是 9/11。
Yesterday, Charlie Kirk was killed, assassinated at a discussion on a campus.
昨天，查理·柯克在校园的一次讨论中被暗杀。
And there's a mix of responses to this out there.
对此，人们有各种各样的反应。
Some people are greatly saddened, others less so.
有些人非常悲伤，有些人则不那么悲伤。
There's a lot of discussion about morality, about words versus actions.
关于道德、言语与行动的讨论有很多。
Maybe we use this as a bit of a filter to understand something.
也许我们用它作为一个过滤器来理解某些东西。
Andrew Huberman: Broadly speaking, I can imagine two somewhat extreme ways to go through life.
安德鲁·休伯曼：从广义上讲，我可以想象两种有些极端的生活方式。
One is with the philosophy, you know, "live and let live." As long as somebody is not hurting somebody, let them do what they want.
一是哲学，你知道，“自己生存，也让别人生存”。只要有人不伤害别人，就让他们做他们想做的事。
They want to change genders, let them change genders.
他们想要改变性别，就让他们改变性别吧。
They want to vote Republican, let them vote Republican.
他们想投票给共和党，就让他们投票给共和党吧。
They want to...
他们想要...
You know, as long as they're not harming anybody, right?
你知道，只要他们不伤害任何人，对吗？
Andrew Huberman: So we have laws to protect people's well-being.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：所以我们有法律来保护人们的福祉。
The other extreme would be one of kind of moral judgment.
另一个极端是一种道德判断。
Like, you know, people offended by someone else's choices or even beliefs.
就像，你知道，人们会因为别人的选择甚至信仰而感到冒犯。
And even if they can't point to the exact harm that's being done, they feel as if it's grating on them, right?
即使他们无法指出正在造成的确切伤害，他们也会觉得这让他们很恼火，对吧？
And then, of course, we have a lot of questions about those two different people's histories, whether or not they see, you know, moral judgment in the context of who's getting more or less resources.
当然，我们对这两个不同人的历史有很多疑问，无论他们是否看到，你知道，在谁获得更多或更少资源的背景下进行道德判断。
There's a bunch of evolutionary stuff we could weave in there.
我们可以在那里编织很多进化的东西。
But let's just examine like two perception boxes, one of a "live and let live" type...
但让我们来看看两个感知盒子，其中一个是“活与让活”类型的......
And I'm not trying to politicize this at all.
我根本不想将此事政治化。
It could be right wing, left wing, middle, whatever.
它可以是右翼，左翼，中间翼，等等。
It doesn't matter.
没关系。
Andrew Huberman: Let's be aliens in outer space...
安德鲁·休伯曼：让我们成为外太空的外星人......
A live and let live-dominated perception box versus a moral judgment perception box.
一个以生活和让生活为主的感知盒与道德判断感知盒的对比。
Given the reality of these perception boxes here on Earth now, how is it that one can possibly establish a species cohabitating Earth that's going to go forward in any kind of different way without something fundamentally changing about, A, understanding that there are these perception boxes, B, how to change them?
鉴于现在地球上这些感知盒子的现实，人们怎么可能建立一个与地球共存的物种，它将以任何不同的方式前进，而无需从根本上改变，A，了解这些感知盒子的存在，B，如何改变它们？
And then, as you said before, there has to be a desire to change them.
然后，正如您之前所说，必须有改变它们的愿望。
Andrew Huberman: So, I mean, it feels a little bit like a stalemate, in fact.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，我的意思是，事实上，感觉有点像僵局。
And I'm not trying to be pessimistic.
我并不是想变得悲观。
I think I'm being realistic.
我想我很现实。
As long as you have people are live and let live and others who are in a state of moral judgment, I just don't know how 100 years from now things are going to look that much different.
只要有人活着，也有人活着，还有其他人处于道德判断的状态，我只是不知道 100 年后，事情会看起来有多大的不同。
There'll be different conflicts.
就会产生不同的冲突。
Christof Koch: Oh, they could be worse, of course.
克里斯托夫·科赫：哦，当然，情况可能更糟。
Andrew Huberman: Could be worse, could be worse.
安德鲁·休伯曼：可能会更糟，可能会更糟。
Christof Koch: Could be far worse.
克里斯托夫·科赫：情况可能更糟。
Andrew Huberman: But I can't imagine, like, unless we let dog consciousness play a key role or something-
安德鲁·休伯曼：但我无法想象，除非我们让狗的意识发挥关键作用或其他什么——
Christof Koch: Well, we could also have what some people in the Bayesian community call a 'meta-prior.' So you have your priors, right?
Christof Koch：嗯，我们也可以拥有贝叶斯社区中一些人所说的“元先验”。所以你有你的先验，对吧？
So, the priors are all the assumptions that let you judge, supposedly, a fact.
所以，先验是所有让你判断事实的假设。
So, to stay with yesterday's examples, trying not to politicize it, but you may have read, after the assassination was announced in the House of Representatives, the speaker called for 30 seconds of silence, which was fine.
因此，继续使用昨天的例子，尽量不要将其政治化，但你可能已经读到，在众议院宣布暗杀事件后，议长要求默哀 30 秒，这很好。
And then someone called for prayers out loud, and then all pandemonium broke out.
然后有人大声呼吁祈祷，然后一片混乱爆发了。
Okay?
好的？
So among the representatives, they screamed at each other.
于是代表们之中，纷纷互相叫嚷。
You know, it only took this one thing and then suddenly...
你知道，只发生了这一件事，然后突然……
Because they have radically different priors, they just have...
因为他们有着截然不同的先验，所以他们只是......
They're partly, you know, your two...
你知道，他们部分是你的两个......
The ones that you described.
你所描述的那些。
Christof Koch: But what they should do is sort of have a meta-prior, "Okay, wait a minute.
克里斯托夫·科赫：但他们应该做的是有一个元先验，“好吧，等一下。
We're now screaming at each other.
我们现在互相尖叫。
We all believe that shooting other people," that's what they all said, universally, "This is bad.
我们都相信，向其他人开枪，”他们普遍这么说，“这很糟糕。
This is not good.
这不好。
No matter who did it, for what reason, this is bad and evil." "Maybe we should stop screaming at each other to change our higher order prior, because this isn't going to end well if...
不管是谁干的，出于什么原因，这都是不好的、邪恶的。” “也许我们应该停止互相尖叫以改变我们的更高秩序，因为如果……这不会有好结果。
This just keeps on getting worse.
这只会变得更糟。
And where is it gonna end?
又会在哪里结束呢？
How is it gonna end?" There has to be this insight.
事情会怎样结束呢？”必须有这样的洞察力。
So it's a little bit when we talked before about Alcoholics Anonymous.
所以当我们之前谈论戒酒互诫协会时，就有点这样了。
There has to be this inside weight.
必须有这个内部重量。
"We can't do this." There has to be a realization that there is a problem, and we've got to do things differently.
“我们不能这样做。”必须认识到存在问题，我们必须采取不同的做法。
Andrew Huberman: Well, I think for many, many years, the meta-prior was God and religion.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯，我认为多年来，元先验是上帝和宗教。
People looked to texts that were, at least, people agreed, scripted by non-human actors, so the meta-priors.
人们所关注的文本至少是人们同意的，由非人类演员编写的，因此元先验也是如此。
Christof Koch: Human actors.
克里斯托夫·科赫：人类演员。
Andrew Huberman: Maybe now people will look more to AI, I don't know.
Andrew Huberman：也许现在人们会更多地关注人工智能，我不知道。
But I just feel like humans are not well-positioned to resolve certain kinds of things for ourselves and-
但我只是觉得人类没有能力为自己解决某些事情，而且——
Christof Koch: Yeah.
克里斯托夫·科赫：是的。
We have lost the common...
我们已经失去了共同的...
Christof Koch: If we lost this narrative, yeah.
克里斯托夫·科赫：如果我们失去了这个叙述，是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Christof Koch: So we had more or less...
克里斯托夫·科赫：所以我们或多或少......
I mean, in the '50s and '60s, right, there were three TV channels, and we had a common narrative.
我的意思是，在 50 年代和 60 年代，对吧，有三个电视频道，我们有一个共同的叙述。
I totally agree with you.
我完全同意你的观点。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: And we lost that.
克里斯托夫·科赫：我们失去了这一点。
And we're never going to regain that, right?
我们永远不会再恢复这种状态了，对吗？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: Unless there's extreme political repression, you know, maybe in China, but not here.
克里斯托夫·科赫：除非存在极端的政治镇压，你知道，也许在中国，但不是在这里。
It's not going to happen here, right?
这种事不会发生在这里，对吧？
So what do we do?
那么我们该怎么办呢？
Is this just getting worse every day with more and more violence and other things?
随着越来越多的暴力和其他事情，情况是否每天都在变得更糟？
Or is there going to be some point an awakening, a meta...
或者是否会在某个时刻出现觉醒、元...
You know, a realization that we've got to change our priors here?
你知道吗，意识到我们必须改变我们的先验？
Andrew Huberman: What do you think is the potential role for AI?
Andrew Huberman：您认为人工智能的潜在作用是什么？
I mean, is...
我的意思是，是...
AI, you said machines, you know, they don't do, right?
人工智能，你说机器，你知道，它们不会做，对吧？
They...
他们...
Or they only do, they only do.
或者他们只是这样做，他们只是这样做。
Christof Koch: They do.
克里斯托夫·科赫：确实如此。
Andrew Huberman: Excuse me.
安德鲁·休伯曼：对不起。
They only do.
他们只会这样做。
Like with AA, first comes the acknowledgement that humans are not sufficient to resolve these issues on our own.
与 AA 一样，首先要承认人类不足以独自解决这些问题。
I'm not saying where the answer should come from.
我并不是说答案应该来自哪里。
I have my own ideas about that, but it seems like there needs to be the acknowledgement that we are limited in our ability to resolve this.
我对此有自己的想法，但似乎需要承认我们解决这个问题的能力有限。
History demonstrates that, yesterday demonstrates that, today demonstrates that.
历史证明，昨天证明，今天证明。
I mean, it's naive of anybody who's been alive for more than a few decades to think that in 30 years, suddenly everybody's going to, you know, put down swords for plowshares, right?
我的意思是，对于一个活了几十年的人来说，如果你认为三十年后，突然间每个人都会放下刀剑，改犁头，那就太天真了，对吧？
Christof Koch: Okay, but humanity has bumbled through history for the last, you know, however long, several million years.
克里斯托夫·科赫：好的，但人类在过去的历史中跌跌撞撞，你知道，无论多么漫长，几百万年。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: And modern history, since we can speak and have recorded thought, at least 10,000 years, right?
克里斯托夫·科赫：现代历史，自从我们能够说话并记录思想以来，至少有一万年了，对吧？
So, ultimately, somehow we'll make it through, most likely.
所以，最终，我们很有可能会以某种方式度过难关。
Andrew Huberman: On the whole.
安德鲁·休伯曼：总的来说。
Christof Koch: On the whole.
克里斯托夫·科赫：总体而言。
Andrew Huberman: But it could be much better, right?
Andrew Huberman：但它可能会好得多，对吧？
Christof Koch: Individuals, empires crumble in half.
克里斯托夫·科赫：个人、帝国都会崩溃成两半。
And of course, we're an empire like any other empire.
当然，我们是一个像其他帝国一样的帝国。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: And yes, this Western-style liberal democracy, you know, you can be pessimistic about it.
克里斯托夫·科赫：是的，这种西方式的自由民主，你知道，你可以对此持悲观态度。
And, you know, it's not just the US.
而且，你知道，这不仅仅是美国。
Of course, here it's the most because we have all these guns.
当然，这里是最多的，因为我们有所有这些枪。
But if you look at, you know...
但如果你看一下，你就知道...
You look at in Hungary, look at in Germany, look at in France, right?
你看看匈牙利，看看德国，看看法国，对吗？
They now have these countrywide protests against everything.
现在他们在全国范围内抗议一切。
Andrew Huberman: Against everything?
安德鲁·休伯曼：反对一切？
Christof Koch: Yeah.
克里斯托夫·科赫：是的。
And then, of course, England, right?
当然，还有英格兰，对吧？
And so, yeah, so we're certainly...
所以，是的，所以我们当然...
The Western ideal, Western national state's liberalism is certainly in a crisis.
西方理想、西方民族国家的自由主义肯定处于危机之中。
What's going to help?
有什么帮助吗？
And adding AI, of course, just accelerates everything, right?
当然，添加人工智能只会加速一切，对吧？
We're going through this acceleranda, this tremendous acceleranda, right?
我们正在经历这个加速，这个巨大的加速，对吧？
Where AI is getting better literally every day, right?
人工智能确实每天都在进步，对吗？
I'm sure you use it just as much as I do.
我相信你和我一样经常使用它。
It's very powerful.
它非常强大。
It's getting ever more powerful.
它变得越来越强大。
You throw that into the mix.
你把它加入到混合中。
Well, that's probably...
嗯，这可能是...
With unemployment, massive change, right?
随着失业，巨大的变化，对吗？
Most people don't like change, right?
大多数人不喜欢改变，对吗？
So...
所以...
Andrew Huberman: Well, yeah, I guess what I'm trying to get to here is, you're a really smart guy.
Andrew Huberman：嗯，是的，我想我想说的是，你是一个非常聪明的人。
You understand consciousness.
你了解意识。
The perception box, to me, is a wonderful framework for people to understand differences of opinion and outlook that are based on history and perception, et cetera.
对我来说，感知盒是一个很好的框架，可以让人们理解基于历史和感知等的观点和观点差异。
Christof Koch: But if it's all intellectual, it's like what you said when you've really experienced what it is to have Black skin...
克里斯托夫·科赫：但如果这都是知识分子的话，就像你在真正体验过黑皮肤意味着什么时所说的那样......
I mean, not fully, but to experience something of what is it like to walk around being Black, right?
我的意思是，不完全是，而是体验作为黑人四处走动的感觉，对吗？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: You had to...
克里斯托夫·科赫：你必须……
You told me yourself, right, early on that you said, "Well, you can't get that from reading.
你自己告诉我，对，很早就你说过，“嗯，你无法从阅读中得到这一点。
You really have to experience it." So people have to have this moment, this come-to-Jesus moment where they say, "Okay, s***, we can't go on like this anymore, that we have to change our way of doing this."
你真的必须去体验一下。”所以人们必须有这个时刻，这个来到耶稣面前的时刻，他们说：“好吧，操，我们不能再这样下去了，我们必须改变我们做这件事的方式。”
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I agree.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我同意。
Christof Koch: And with social media, you know, all it takes is a small fraction of people that reignite this, right?
克里斯托夫·科赫：通过社交媒体，你知道，只需要一小部分人就能重新点燃这一点，对吗？
That post something nasty and then someone else posts it and then they all pile on and...
那个帖子发布了一些令人讨厌的东西，然后其他人也发布了它，然后他们都堆积起来......
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, we have a billion plus channels of information.
Andrew Huberman：是的，我们有十亿多个信息渠道。
Christof Koch: Yes.
克里斯托夫·科赫：是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: It's amazing to see how quickly the theories about the motives of the shooter evolved into...
安德鲁·休伯曼：令人惊讶的是，关于枪手动机的理论演变得如此之快......
They micro-sliced it into 15 different individuals.
他们将其微切成 15 个不同的个体。
They hadn't even identified a potential suspect yet about why Charlie Kirk was killed.
他们甚至还没有确定查理·柯克被杀的潜在嫌疑人。
And it was incredible to just see how people assign themselves as authorities on these key topics.
看到人们如何将自己定位为这些关键主题的权威，真是令人难以置信。
But I would like to imagine that the possibility resides in human beings understanding enough about their consciousness and their perception boxes to understand that no one individual among us, or even a small group of individuals among us, has all the knowledge that's necessary in order to get to this, you know, meta understanding of what's best.
但我想，这种可能性在于人类对自己的意识和感知盒有足够的了解，从而了解我们当中没有一个人，甚至我们当中的一小群人，拥有获得这种对最好的元理解所需的所有知识。
Christof Koch: Yes.
克里斯托夫·科赫：是的。
Christof Koch: To change.
克里斯托夫·科赫：改变。
Andrew Huberman: And I like to think that AI might play a positive role there.
Andrew Huberman：我认为人工智能可能会在那里发挥积极作用。
But it would require an acknowledgement that we need to hand over some key decision-making to machines, which is very complicated for people.
但这需要承认我们需要将一些关键决策交给机器，这对人类来说非常复杂。
Christof Koch: So which AI?
Christof Koch：那么哪个人工智能呢？
The Chinese AI, or the Open AI, or Claude, or Anthropic, or Grok, or any of the other ones being developed?
中国人工智能、开放人工智能、克劳德人工智能、人类人工智能、格罗克人工智能，还是其他正在开发的人工智能？
Andrew Huberman: Right.
安德鲁·休伯曼：对。
Yeah, this is the problem.
是的，这就是问题所在。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: Once we've agreed on what is the function we're trying to maximize?
Christof Koch：一旦我们就我们要最大化的功能达成一致，我们会做什么？
I mean, do you really believe that it's going to be...
我的意思是，你真的相信这会是......
Because we haven't agreed, of course, on the optimal framework, right?
当然，因为我们还没有就最佳框架达成一致，对吧？
Because there are Marxists, there are liberalists, there are market people oriented, right?
因为有马克思主义者，有自由主义者，有市场人为本，对吗？
They all believe we should maximize different things.
他们都相信我们应该最大化不同的事情。
So, we're just going to give this to the AI, and they're going to figure it out somehow?
那么，我们只需要把这个交给人工智能，他们就会以某种方式解决这个问题？
Or do you think when they'll be our overlords, then they'll figure out, "Well, for the peace of all humanity, this is what we have to impose."
或者你认为当他们成为我们的霸主时，他们就会明白，“好吧，为了全人类的和平，这就是我们必须强加的。”
Andrew Huberman: In the world that I grew up imagining and that I was told about, and that I'd like to participate in creating, humans treated each other with more compassion.
安德鲁·休伯曼：在我从小想象的、别人告诉我的、我想参与创造的世界里，人类以更多的同情心对待彼此。
Christof Koch: Yeah, but look, I mean, I'm more with Steve Pinker here.
克里斯托夫·科赫：是的，但是你看，我的意思是，我更支持史蒂夫·平克。
Over the last several hundred years, the total amount of violence, I mean...
我的意思是，在过去的几百年里，暴力的总量......
So my forefathers, you know, being German here, initiated World War II, right?
所以我的祖先，你知道，作为德国人，发动了第二次世界大战，对吗？
That led to killing in Europe, probably...
这可能导致了欧洲的杀戮......
I mean, 20 million Russians alone.
我的意思是，仅俄罗斯人就有 2000 万。
You know, six million Jews in the Holocaust.
你知道，六百万犹太人遭受了大屠杀。
Many millions more throughout Germany.
德国各地还有数百万人。
So, you know, that's...
所以，你知道，那是...
So, I don't think in absolute terms, just in terms of the number of people killed, it's nothing like in World War I.
所以，我不认为从绝对意义上来说，仅从死亡人数来看，这与第一次世界大战完全不同。
Every day, 10,000 soldiers died.
每天都有一万名士兵死亡。
Every day for four years of the different sides, for essentially having accomplished nothing whatsoever, right?
四年来每天都在不同的方面，基本上什么也没完成，对吧？
For one mile, going back and forth in the trench warfare on the Western front.
一英里，在西线阵地战中来回穿梭。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: So in terms of absolute numbers, it's not about absolute numbers.
克里斯托夫·科赫：所以就绝对数字而言，这与绝对数字无关。
Now, of course, we have nuclear weapons and, you know, we have other nasty things, but in terms of total people killed, it's still a tiny fraction of what might happen and what has happened routinely over the last 100 years.
当然，现在我们拥有核武器，而且，你知道，我们还有其他令人讨厌的事情，但就死亡人数而言，这仍然只是过去 100 年来可能发生的事情和常规发生的事情的一小部分。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Well then, perhaps a more tractable way to approach this in order to get improvement, despite the fact that, yes, there are fewer mass casualties overall, is it possible to put two people with very different perception boxes into an experiment?
安德鲁·休伯曼：那么，也许有一种更容易处理的方法来解决这个问题，以取得改进，尽管事实是，是的，总体伤亡人数较少，但是否有可能将两个具有截然不同感知能力的人放入实验中？
Not unlike the experiment that I described earlier, but let them swap perception boxes for a short while?
和我之前描述的实验没什么不同，但是让他们交换感知盒一段时间？
And, you know, we're scientists, and just like to see what happens.
而且，你知道，我们是科学家，只是想看看会发生什么。
Christof Koch: How do we do that?
克里斯托夫·科赫：我们该怎么做？
Christof Koch: Yeah, so if I know where all your priors are in the brain, if I know the neural substrate of all your basic beliefs, this is what priors are, right?
克里斯托夫·科赫：是的，所以如果我知道你所有的先验在大脑中的位置，如果我知道你所有基本信念的神经基础，这就是先验，对吗？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: It's just a fancy word.
克里斯托夫·科赫：这只是一个奇特的词。
All your beliefs of how you interpret human behavior in the light of culture and history and everything.
你如何根据文化、历史和一切来解释人类行为的所有信念。
If I knew them, yes, and maybe we could swap, and suddenly we would understand each other's point of view much better.
如果我认识他们，是的，也许我们可以交换，突然间我们会更好地理解彼此的观点。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: And maybe we are, you know, of the sort that your experiment has.
克里斯托夫·科赫：也许我们就是你的实验所拥有的那种。
But that's always on, you know...
但这种情况始终存在，你知道...
Does that "scale" in modern Silicon Valley speak?
现代硅谷的“规模”会说话吗？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: Does that scale?
克里斯托夫·科赫：这有规模吗？
Can we do this for eight billion of us?
我们能为八十亿人做到这一点吗？
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, it's interesting.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，这很有趣。
No, I don't think you can scale it very easily or at all.
不，我认为你不能很容易地或根本无法扩展它。
It's interesting that you point out very correctly that far fewer mass casualties than in World War I, World War II, and violence in many places are going down, not up.
有趣的是，您非常正确地指出，大规模伤亡人数比一战、二战时要少得多，许多地方的暴力事件正在下降，而不是上升。
That's not true all over the world, of course.
当然，世界各地的情况并非如此。
But, you know, I have to kind of wonder if, because of social media and the internet, what has profoundly changed now is that things are caught on video.
但是，你知道，我不得不想知道，由于社交媒体和互联网，现在发生的深刻变化是否是通过视频来捕捉事物。
Everything from a couple getting caught cheating at a Coldplay concert, where you have all the elements of drama, like the friend, the humiliation, the this, the that, you know, the shaming, the...
从一对情侣在酷玩乐队音乐会上作弊被抓到的一切，那里有所有戏剧元素，比如朋友、羞辱、这个、那个、你知道、羞辱、……
Okay, you have all of that.
好吧，这些你都有了。
A woman being really brutally murdered on a subway, you know, and the people getting up, not even really realizing or perhaps realizing and just, you know, getting off the light rail anyway.
一个女人在地铁上被残酷地谋杀了，你知道，人们站起来，甚至没有真正意识到，或者可能意识到，只是，你知道，无论如何，都下了轻轨。
Andrew Huberman: Or Charlie Kirk getting shot and seeing it in real time.
安德鲁·休伯曼：或者查理·柯克被枪杀并实时看到它。
I mean, the JFK getting shot video was kind of grainy.
我的意思是，肯尼迪被枪杀的视频有点颗粒感。
There are some elements.
有一些要素。
They're still analyzing that one.
他们仍在分析那个。
I mean, you have thousands of cameras on at the Kirk thing.
我的意思是，柯克事件上有数千台摄像机。
Christof Koch: Yeah.
克里斯托夫·科赫：是的。
So the emotional impact is much, much bigger.
所以情感上的影响要大得多。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
And I wonder where that will lead, if that will lead to more divergence of perception boxes or more convergence of perception boxes.
我想知道这会导致什么结果，是否会导致感知框的更多分歧或感知框的更多收敛。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Obviously, this just happened as well.
显然，这也刚刚发生了。
But this is an ongoing real-life experiment of so much being visible in real time.
但这是一个正在进行的现实生活实验，很多东西都是实时可见的。
Christof Koch: It is.
克里斯托夫·科赫：是的。
Andrew Huberman: It's not a story about...
安德鲁·休伯曼：这不是一个关于……的故事。
You're actually in the story, even if you weren't there.
即使你不在场，你实际上也在故事中。
Christof Koch: And this is totally new in human history.
克里斯托夫·科赫：这在人类历史上是全新的。
So we're going through this rapid period.
所以我们正在经历这个快速时期。
Some people call it 'the acceleranda,' right?
有些人称之为“加速器”，对吧？
This rapid acceleration towards some distant point that may not be that far away, that we don't yet realize.
这种向某个遥远点的快速加速可能并不遥远，但我们尚未意识到。
I doubt it's the singularity of Kurzweil, but...
我怀疑这是库兹韦尔的奇点，但是......
Andrew Huberman: Let's talk about the perception box elements that one is certain one can change, and the potential role of psychedelics in this.
安德鲁·休伯曼：让我们谈谈人们确信可以改变的感知盒元素，以及迷幻药在其中的潜在作用。
I was made aware recently that you took 5-MeO-DMT.
我最近得知您服用了 5-MeO-DMT。
I've never taken 5-MeO-DMT.
我从未服用过 5-MeO-DMT。
I know some people who have.
我认识一些人。
But could you or would you describe that experience and what it revealed to you about the way that your brain and brains work generally with respect to consciousness?
但是你能否或愿意描述一下这段经历，以及它向你揭示的关于你的大脑和大脑在意识方面的一般工作方式的信息？
Christof Koch: Yeah, so it's a serotonergic tryptamine very similar to psilocybin or quite similar to DMT.
Christof Koch：是的，所以它是一种血清素色胺，与裸盖菇素非常相似，或者与 DMT 非常相似。
So chemically, they're all very similar, but each one, of course, binds to slightly different...
因此，从化学角度来看，它们都非常相似，但当然，每一种的结合都略有不同......
You know, there are 14 different serotonin receptors, bind to different cells and different proportions of 5-MeO.
要知道，有14种不同的血清素受体，结合不同的细胞和不同比例的5-MeO。
What's so unique about that is, you inhale it, although they're now trying to deliver something that you can inject into your nose.
其独特之处在于，你吸入它，尽管他们现在试图提供一些可以注射到鼻子里的东西。
But traditionally, you inhale it and literally within three breaths, you do...
但传统上，你吸入它，实际上在三个呼吸之内，你就会……
Christof Koch: And the third one, the visual field starts fracturing into a hexagonal.
克里斯托夫·科赫：第三个，视野开始分裂成六边形。
And I thought to myself, "Holy s***, what have I got myself into?"
我心想：“天啊，我到底把自己惹到了什么坑里了？”
Andrew Huberman: Layer five of visual cortex.
Andrew Huberman：视觉皮层第五层。
That's a neuroscience joke, folks, sorry.
抱歉，这是一个神经科学笑话。
Christof Koch: At that point, you didn't, I wasn't...
克里斯托夫·科赫：那时，你没有，我也没有……
And you think you're going to die.
而你认为你会死。
You said, "S***, this was a mistake.
你说：“S***，这是一个错误。
I'm going to die," and you die.
我要死了，”然后你就死了。
I died.
我死了。
And in a sense that my self was gone, Christof was gone.
从某种意义上说，我的自我消失了，克里斯托夫也消失了。
There was no voice, there was no body.
没有声音，也没有身体。
People who looked at me...
那些看着我的人...
So this was all done in fairly controlled circumstances, people who looked at me all just saw me sort of...
所以这一切都是在相当受控的情况下完成的，看着我的人都只是看到了我……
whining a little bit, and with eyes wide open, huge, expanded pupils.
有点哀鸣，眼睛睁得大大的，瞳孔放大。
But you don't see, you don't hear.
但你看不到，你听不到。
You get totally cut off from the world.
你与世界完全隔绝了。
But when I say "I," it wasn't Christof.
但当我说“我”时，我说的不是克里斯托夫。
It was conscious, there's no question.
这是有意识的，毫无疑问。
I mean, whatever remained was man, woman, child, God, angel, demon, but it didn't experience anything except a point of overwhelming brightness.
我的意思是，剩下的就是男人、女人、孩子、上帝、天使、恶魔，但除了一点压倒性的亮度之外，它什么也没经历过。
Christof Koch: So there wasn't color.
克里斯托夫·科赫：所以没有颜色。
There wasn't left or right because there was no space.
没有左或右，因为没有空间。
Space had collapsed into this point.
空间已经塌陷到了这个地步。
There was no stereo or texture.
没有立体声或纹理。
There was no pain.
没有疼痛。
There was no pleasure.
没有任何乐趣。
There was no sound, no smell, nothing.
没有声音，没有气味，什么也没有。
There was just this point of icy bright light and terror and ecstasy.
只有这一点冰冷的明亮光芒、恐惧和狂喜。
That's it.
就是这样。
Three things: bright light, terror, and ecstasy.
三样东西：明亮的光、恐怖和狂喜。
For time, there was no time.
对于时间，没有时间。
There was no perception of time, right?
没有时间观念，对吗？
Right?
正确的？
And so, it wasn't too long or too short.
所以，它不太长也不太短。
It simply was.
确实如此。
There was no space, as I said.
正如我所说，没有空间。
There was no self.
没有自我。
So all of that was gone except terror, ecstasy, and light.
于是，一切都消失了，只剩下恐惧、狂喜和光明。
And then after this timeless moment, I asked them to put on a piece of music, Arvo Pärt, this minimalist.
在这个永恒的时刻之后，我要求他们演奏一首音乐《Arvo Pärt》，这是一首极简主义音乐。
And so those last nine minutes, and I just heard...
最后九分钟，我刚刚听到……
Christof Koch: The first thing that became apparent was the ending of that two-instrument piece.
克里斯托夫·科赫：首先显而易见的是那首由两件乐器组成的作品的结尾。
And then, you know, it's almost 10 minutes, and then you rapidly come to.
然后，你知道，差不多 10 分钟了，然后你很快就醒过来了。
Then I stripped, I went into fetus, I cried, I had all this other, you know, autonomic reaction.
然后我脱光衣服，进入胎儿状态，我哭了，我有所有这些其他的，你知道的，自主反应。
What's remarkable, you go into the void and you come back, you can speak within an hour.
值得注意的是，你进入虚空然后回来，一个小时内你就可以说话了。
You can speak about it if you want to, right?
如果你愿意的话，你可以谈论它，对吧？
And there's no long-lasting physiolog-- I had my watch on.
没有持久的生理学家——我戴着手表。
It hardly registered a difference.
几乎没有什么区别。
No big increase in blood pressure or, you know, heart rate.
血压或心率没有大幅增加。
So there's still not a single day...
所以还没有一天...
This was in the first week of the pandemic.
这是大流行的第一周。
I think about it every day.
我每天都在想这个问题。
Christof Koch: I had two such experiences.
克里斯托夫·科赫：我有两次这样的经历。
The other one was very different.
另一件则非常不同。
Every day I think about it, and what it taught me was two things.
我每天都会思考它，它教会了我两件事。
So A, as a student of consciousness, it taught me that the mind doesn't depend on space, on time, and on self.
所以A，作为一个意识的学生，它告诉我，心灵不依赖于空间、时间和自我。
And this is really something that, you know, the German idealist philosopher Immanuel Kant taught us, transcendental idealism, that they're all categories.
这确实是德国唯心主义哲学家伊曼纽尔·康德教给我们的东西，先验唯心主义，它们都是范畴。
They're all categories that we need to perceive.
它们都是我们需要感知的类别。
We cannot but put an object in a place.
我们不能不把一个物体放在一个地方。
We cannot but assign a time to an event, and we cannot but have a sense of self.
我们不能不为一件事指定时间，我们不能不有自我意识。
But they're all optional.
但它们都是可选的。
They're there most of the time, but not always, not in this case.
他们大部分时间都在那里，但并非总是如此，在这种情况下并非如此。
And then the other gift I discovered four or six weeks later was that I never thought about death again.
四六周后我发现的另一件礼物是我再也没有想过死亡。
Christof Koch: You know, as you get older, this may happen with you, maybe in a slow way.
克里斯托夫·科赫：你知道，随着年龄的增长，这种情况可能会发生在你身上，也许是缓慢的方式。
That you lie awake at night and you think about beyond death, you know, death, being dead for a long time, for a very long time, for a very, very, very long time.
你晚上睡不着觉，你会思考超越死亡的事情，你知道，死亡，死了很长一段时间，很长一段时间，一段非常、非常、非常长的时间。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: And it's a little bit like stepping into an abyss and looking down into this abyss that's bottomless.
克里斯托夫·科赫：这有点像踏入深渊，俯视这个无底的深渊。
You get this existential vertigo.
你会感到存在主义的眩晕。
Never had that again since then.
从那以后再也没有这样过。
So I don't want to die, but I've lost the fear of that.
所以我不想死，但我已经失去了对死亡的恐惧。
So, both things are reported.
所以，这两件事都被报道了。
I mean, everyone has a slightly different experience.
我的意思是，每个人的经历都略有不同。
In fact, there were two papers recently published about what happens to the brains of these people.
事实上，最近发表了两篇关于这些人的大脑发生了什么的论文。
But very often it's sort of going to the void, having these feelings of terror and ecstasy or awe.
但很多时候，它有点走向虚空，产生恐惧、狂喜或敬畏的感觉。
And if you think about the etymology of the word awful, "full of awe." When you, for example, theologians talk about the mysterium tremendum, for example, this author, the theologian.
如果你考虑一下“可怕”这个词的词源，“充满敬畏”。例如，当你，神学家谈论神秘的巨大时，例如，这位作者，神学家。
Christof Koch: When you're in the presence of God, you have this, "this is awful." The terror and the ecstasy, and this is what you can experience.
克里斯托夫·科赫：当你在上帝面前时，你会说，“这太可怕了。”恐怖和狂喜，这就是你可以体验到的。
So I'm never going to do it again, never ever.
所以我永远不会再这样做了，永远不会。
Andrew Huberman: No?
安德鲁·休伯曼：没有？
You're done?
你完成了吗？
Christof Koch: It's been offered to me.
Christof Koch：有人向我提供了这个机会。
No, it's called the toad because it comes ultimately from the glands of...
不，它被称为蟾蜍，因为它最终来自……的腺体。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: The original stuff comes from the gland of the Sonoran Desert toad.
Christof Koch：最初的物质来自索诺兰沙漠蟾蜍的腺体。
It's given me its gift and I don't ever need to do this again.
它给了我礼物，我再也不需要这样做了。
Andrew Huberman: You got it.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你明白了。
Christof Koch: But it's useful both as a student of consciousness, as well as just being a human.
克里斯托夫·科赫：但这对于意识的学生和作为一个人来说都是有用的。
Andrew Huberman: Incredible.
安德鲁·休伯曼：难以置信。
It's hard for somebody who hasn't done it to conceptualize the statement, "There is no Christof.
对于没有这样做过的人来说，很难概念化这句话：“没有克里斯托夫。
That you're not there, but the mind is still there." And I could understand how perhaps losing sense of one's body...
你不在，但心还在。”我能理解失去身体感觉的可能性......
Like, I have a friend who recently did ketamine-assisted psychotherapy.
比如，我有一个朋友最近做了氯胺酮辅助心理治疗。
And he described himself rising up and floating above his body, turning over and seeing himself from the outside, but then also realizing and seeing a lot of positive aspects of his life that he was unaware of prior to that.
他描述自己上升并漂浮在身体上方，翻身并从外面看到自己，但随后也意识到并看到了自己生活中许多他之前没有意识到的积极方面。
Then returning to his body and keeping those realizations and moving forward with a much greater sense of gratitude, agency, and all the things the therapy was designed to accomplish.
然后回到他的身体，保持这些认识，并带着更大的感恩感、代理感和治疗旨在完成的所有事情继续前进。
Pretty spectacular.
相当壮观。
Andrew Huberman: I realize ketamine carries risks too, but dissociative anesthetic, a perception, okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我意识到氯胺酮也有风险，但是解离麻醉剂，一种感知，好吧。
But the way he described it, he was there the whole time, observing his physical body.
但按照他的描述，他一直都在那里，观察着他的肉身。
You are describing the 5-MeO-DMT experience as no self, just an observation of the mind as an entity that didn't require space, time, Christof, or anything else, which is very hard for someone who hasn't done it to conceptualize.
你将 5-MeO-DMT 体验描述为没有自我，只是对心灵作为一个实体的观察，不需要空间、时间、克里斯托夫或其他任何东西，这对于没有这样做过的人来说很难概念化。
Christof Koch: No self.
克里斯托夫·科赫：没有自我。
Christof Koch: Well, think about dreaming.
克里斯托夫·科赫：嗯，想想梦想。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: When you dream, Andrew, are you directing the show?
克里斯托夫·科赫：安德鲁，当你做梦时，你是在导演这个节目吗？
Andrew Huberman: No, I wish.
安德鲁·休伯曼：不，我希望如此。
I've tried.
我试过了。
Yeah.
是的。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: So things happen to you but you don't have insights.
克里斯托夫·科赫：所以事情发生在你身上，但你没有洞察力。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: It's a little bit like that.
克里斯托夫·科赫：有点像那样。
Things happen to you, you fly, you meet long lost lovers or friends or pets, but you know, the "you" is strangely muted.
事情发生在你身上，你飞翔，你遇到了久违的爱人、朋友或宠物，但你知道，“你”出奇地沉默。
So it's a more extreme version of that.
所以这是一个更极端的版本。
In fact, I think for mystical...
事实上，我认为对于神秘...
This wasn't a mystical experience.
这并不是什么神秘的经历。
For mystical experience, most people report that they go hand-in-hand.
对于神秘体验，大多数人表示他们是齐头并进的。
In fact, I think they're probably necessary but not sufficient.
事实上，我认为它们可能是必要的，但还不够。
You have to lose the sense of self.
你必须失去自我意识。
You have to get off this planet, ego, and become selfless.
你必须摆脱这个星球，摆脱自我，变得无私。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: And then this allows you to experience...
克里斯托夫·科赫：然后这可以让你体验......
Oh, and "The Doors of Perception," right?
哦，还有“感知之门”，对吗？
Foundational text for the 'Age of Aquarius,' '60s and '70s, right?
“水瓶座时代”、60 年代和 70 年代的基础文本，对吗？
Aldous Huxley was here in LA when he, you know...
奥尔德斯·赫胥黎当时在洛杉矶，你知道……
A British intellectual when he took mescaline.
一位英国知识分子服用麦司卡林时。
He also talks about this loss of self.
他还谈到了这种自我的丧失。
So I think it's not untypical for these powerful experiences to lose your sense of self, to realize that, you know, it's fine.
所以我认为，这些强大的经历会让你失去自我意识，意识到，你知道，这很好。
There's still mind there without being your mind.
仍然有头脑在那里，但不是你的头脑。
Andrew Huberman: Did the experience, while it removed essentially your fear of death, did it change anything about your beliefs or ideas about what might happen after you die?
安德鲁·休伯曼：这段经历虽然基本上消除了你对死亡的恐惧，但它是否改变了你对死后可能发生的事情的信念或想法？
Christof Koch: So I had a separate experience two years later, past midnight on a beach in Brazil.
克里斯托夫·科赫：两年后，午夜过后，我在巴西的海滩上有了一次单独的经历。
So that was a more classical mystical experience.
所以那是一种更经典的神秘体验。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: So there, again, loss of Christof, loss of self.
克里斯托夫·科赫：所以，再次失去克里斯托夫，失去自我。
And I don't want to talk about the details.
我不想谈论细节。
It's still too...
这还是太...
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: You know, I still have processing and all every day, but I became...
克里斯托夫·科赫：你知道，我每天仍然有处理过程，但我变得……
Christof Koch: Whatever remained of me became one with the universe.
克里斯托夫·科赫：我剩下的一切都与宇宙合而为一。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: And the title of my last book, "Then I Am Myself," the book, this is what it's...
克里斯托夫·科赫：我的上一本书的标题是《那么我就是我自己》，这本书的标题是这样的……
"Then I Am Myself the World." Suddenly...
“那么我就是世界。”突然...
I know it sounds terrible woo-woo, but you feel you're one with the universe and that holy maloney...
我知道这听起来很糟糕，但你会觉得你与宇宙合而为一，那神圣的马洛尼......
It shifted my...
它改变了我的...
You know, so at the time I was 65, you believe in what truly exists, what really exists is pretty established, but it completely shifted the tectonic planes of my metaphysics.
你知道，所以在我65岁的时候，你相信真正存在的东西，真正存在的东西是相当确定的，但它完全改变了我形而上学的构造平面。
So I'm now much more of an idealist who believes that ultimately what truly exists, Andrew, is not the physical.
所以我现在更像是一个理想主义者，安德鲁，我相信最终真正存在的不是物质。
There are atoms and matter and energy and information, space and time.
有原子、物质、能量、信息、空间和时间。
They exist in some sense, but they're ultimately the product of something phenomenal, something mental, because I felt I became part of this, call it 'cosmic consciousness,' whatever, for some timeless moment.
它们在某种意义上存在，但它们最终是某种现象、某种精神的产物，因为我觉得我成为了其中的一部分，称之为“宇宙意识”，无论如何，在某个永恒的时刻。
Christof Koch: And so, to directly answer your question, I now believe that when I die, Christof will be gone.
克里斯托夫·科赫：所以，直接回答你的问题，我现在相信，当我死后，克里斯托夫就会消失。
Christof will never come again, right?
克里斯托夫永远不会再来了，对吗？
Christof, I mean, this person looks like this, talks with this funny accent, has these particular traits and behavior, and memories.
克里斯托夫，我的意思是，这个人看起来像这样，用这种有趣的口音说话，有这些特殊的特征、行为和记忆。
That will be gone.
那将会消失。
But my conscious experience will go back to where it came from.
但我的意识体验会回到它的来源。
This is where it came from, this ultimately, this...
这就是它的来源，这最终，这......
And Schopenhauer, the German idealist Schopenhauer has this beautiful piece where he talks about it's like, you know, you're...
叔本华，德国理想主义者叔本华有一篇美丽的文章，他谈到这就像，你知道，你......
There's this ocean and there's this froth, and for a brief moment, you know, this little bubble that's part of this wave believes, "Oh, I'm an individual.
有这片海洋，有这泡沫，有那么一会儿，你知道，这个波浪的一部分的小泡沫相信，“哦，我是一个个体。
I'm supreme." And then, it lives for 60 or 80 years, and then it gets absorbed by the ocean again, becomes part of the overall ocean.
我是至高无上的。”然后，它活了60年或80年，然后又被海洋吸收，成为整个海洋的一部分。
So, I think that's my current belief.
所以，我认为这就是我目前的信念。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Well, and we have strong reason to believe that the matter that is each of us gets reabsorbed into the earth.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯，我们有充分的理由相信我们每个人的物质都会被地球重新吸收。
Christof Koch: Yeah, correct.
克里斯托夫·科赫：是的，正确。
Andrew Huberman: I mean, you don't need any mysticism to accept that we go into the dirt, and then can be reapplied to birds or trees or rocks or mold or whatever, right?
安德鲁·休伯曼：我的意思是，你不需要任何神秘主义就能接受我们进入泥土，然后可以重新应用于鸟类、树木、岩石、霉菌或其他什么，对吗？
Christof Koch: We are recycled.
克里斯托夫·科赫：我们被回收了。
Christof Koch: Into everything, and so this belief in idealism is not totally woo-woo because, once again...
克里斯托夫·科赫：对一切事物都有影响，所以这种对理想主义的信仰并不完全是胡说八道，因为，再一次......
So the standard metaphysical belief of scientists and most philosophers, most people who think hard about it, is not, you know, some sort of belief in a supreme being, but what's known as physicalism, you know?
因此，科学家和大多数哲学家的标准形而上学信仰，大多数认真思考的人，并不是对至高存在的某种信仰，而是所谓的物理主义，你知道吗？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: Used to be called materialism, now known as physicalism.
克里斯托夫·科赫：以前被称为唯物主义，现在被称为物理主义。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: That ultimately, what truly exists is this physical, right?
克里斯托夫·科赫：最终，真正存在的是物质，对吗？
Only physical has causal power, be it, you know, gravitation, electricity, et cetera.
只有物理才有因果力，无论是万有引力、电力等等。
But of course, now if you listen to foundational quantum mechanics people, particularly with entanglement, right?
但是当然，现在如果你听听基础量子力学的人的说法，特别是关于纠缠的说法，对吗？
They're questioning whether it is true that an event truly exists without it being observed.
他们质疑一个事件在没有被观察到的情况下是否真的存在。
Well, so, this is not my grandfather's materialism or physicalism anymore, because before we always believed...
嗯，所以，这不再是我祖父的唯物主义或物理主义了，因为以前我们一直相信……
Take my bike.
骑我的自行车。
I have a bike, okay?
我有一辆自行车，可以吗？
I don't have a car.
我没有车。
I have a bike.
我有一辆自行车。
You don't know what the mass of the bike is, but you believe it has a particular mass.
您不知道自行车的质量是多少，但您相信它有特定的质量。
It weighs, let's say, 20.1 pounds, okay?
比如说，它重 20.1 磅，好吗？
Well, physicists would say, in principle, I cannot make that assertion without there being an observer, because there are no truly independent facts.
嗯，物理学家会说，原则上，如果没有观察者，我就不能做出这样的断言，因为不存在真正独立的事实。
Christof Koch: Well, that gets us much closer to now we have...
克里斯托夫·科赫：嗯，这让我们离现在更近了......
Do we need an observer?
我们需要观察员吗？
Does the observer have to be conscious?
观察者必须有意识吗？
How does consciousness fit into...
意识如何融入...
And in fact, it turns out materialism, AKA physicalism, has always been extremely uncomfortable with the existence of consciousness, to the extent that some of the best known living philo-- No, he passed away two years ago, Daniel Dennett, right?
事实上，事实证明唯物主义，又名物理主义，一直对意识的存在感到非常不舒服，以至于一些最著名的在世哲学家——不，他两年前去世了，丹尼尔·丹尼特，对吗？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: Questions, consciousness doesn't really exist.
克里斯托夫·科赫：问题是，意识并不真正存在。
Qualia, that's all woo-woo.
Qualia，这一切都太棒了。
That's, you know, the trying to gaslight us.
你知道，这就是试图给我们加油。
In fact, a major part of the Anglo-American philosophy establishment is trying to gaslight us into believing that consciousness, "you're just confused about it.
事实上，英美哲学体系的一个主要部分正在试图让我们相信这种意识，“你只是对此感到困惑。
Regular people are just confused about it.
普通人只是对此感到困惑。
It doesn't really exist.
它并不真正存在。
There isn't any such thing as the qualia of pain.
不存在所谓疼痛的感受性这样的东西。
There's behavioral disposition, there's that you chew, you avoid chewing on the other side, you know, if you have a toothache.
有行为倾向，有的是你咀嚼，你避免用另一侧咀嚼，你知道，如果你牙痛。
But the badness, the badness, this godawfulness of a toothache, that doesn't really exist.
但这种糟糕的、糟糕的、可怕的牙痛，其实并不存在。
You're just confused about it." So they try to cancel consciousness, but that hasn't succeeded.
你只是对此感到困惑。”所以他们试图消除意识，但没有成功。
Here we are in 2025, and people still worry about how consciousness fits into the scientific world that has been spectacularly successful at describing the material world.
到了 2025 年，人们仍然担心意识如何融入科学世界，科学世界在描述物质世界方面取得了巨大成功。
Christof Koch: I don't doubt that for one second.
克里斯托夫·科赫：我对此毫不怀疑。
Like you, I'm still a scientist.
和你一样，我仍然是一名科学家。
I practice science every day.
我每天都练习科学。
But there's always been this uneasy relationship between consciousness and sort of classical...
但意识和某种古典之间始终存在着这种不稳定的关系……
I mean, well, let's not call it classical.
我的意思是，好吧，我们不要称之为经典。
And let's say physics and the allied sciences, because all the allied sciences, like physics, chemistry, biology, none of them talk about consciousness, right?
比如说物理学和相关科学，因为所有相关科学，如物理、化学、生物学，都没有谈论意识，对吗？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: No textbook except at the very end, they say, "Well, yeah, people claim they have consciousness," but they don't know how to fit that in with receptors and with atoms and with nuclear energy, because it doesn't seem to fit into there, except we find ourselves in a universe where we're conscious.
克里斯托夫·科赫：没有教科书，除了最后，他们说，“嗯，是的，人们声称他们有意识”，但他们不知道如何将其与受体、原子和核能相适应，因为它似乎不适合那里，除非我们发现自己处于一个有意识的宇宙中。
Sorry, I...
对不起，我...
Andrew Huberman: Please don't apologize.
安德鲁·休伯曼：请不要道歉。
I am-
我是——
Christof Koch: I find this so strange.
克里斯托夫·科赫：我觉得这很奇怪。
Andrew Huberman: I am delighting in what I'm learning from you.
Andrew Huberman：我很高兴从你身上学到东西。
It's the reason you're here.
这就是你来这里的原因。
I mean, I know you hear it a lot, but, you know, you're truly one of the greats of our field of neuroscience and related fields, because you've always been willing to tackle these big problems.
我的意思是，我知道你经常听到这样的说法，但是，你知道，你确实是我们神经科学和相关领域的伟人之一，因为你一直愿意解决这些大问题。
I love and I will never forget the words spoken by you a moment ago, that you know, they're trying to cancel consciousness.
我爱，我永远不会忘记你刚才所说的话，你知道，他们正试图取消意识。
Christof Koch: Yes.
克里斯托夫·科赫：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And I'll just add, so you can't cancel consciousness except maybe briefly on DMT, although you're still in the mind.
Andrew Huberman：我想补充一点，所以你不能取消意识，除非短暂地使用 DMT，尽管你仍然在头脑中。
Christof Koch: Mm-hmm.
克里斯托夫·科赫：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: Oh, no, no, no.
克里斯托夫·科赫：哦，不，不，不。
Andrew Huberman: You can't even cancel conscious-
安德鲁·休伯曼：你甚至无法取消意识-
Christof Koch: That's exactly the point.
克里斯托夫·科赫：这正是重点。
Andrew Huberman: You can't cancel consciousness even on DMT.
Andrew Huberman：即使使用 DMT，你也无法取消意识。
Christof Koch: Well, I mean, you could...
克里斯托夫·科赫：嗯，我的意思是，你可以......
Look, if someone hits me on the head, you cancel consciousness, right?
你看，如果有人打我的头，你就会失去意识，对吗？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: We talked about it before.
克里斯托夫·科赫：我们之前讨论过这个问题。
If you choke me, you know, within eight seconds, I would lose consciousness.
如果你掐住我的脖子，你知道，八秒钟之内我就会失去知觉。
So it's fragile.
所以它很脆弱。
But the point about many of these experiences, they're very, very different, very extraordinary, you know, states of consciousness, but which shows you that the self isn't required.
但关于许多这些经历的要点，它们非常非常不同，非常非凡，你知道，意识状态，但它向你表明自我不是必需的。
And even space and time that we think is so essential, isn't, may not be required, or is not required.
甚至我们认为非常重要的空间和时间，也不是、可能不需要、或者不需要。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, LMNT.
Andrew Huberman：我想稍微休息一下，并向我们的赞助商之一 LMNT 表示感谢。
LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.
LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。
That means the electrolytes sodium, magnesium, and potassium are in the correct amounts, but no sugar.
这意味着钠、镁和钾的电解质含量正确，但不含糖。
Proper hydration is critical for optimal brain and body function.
适当的水合作用对于大脑和身体的最佳功能至关重要。
Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish cognitive and physical performance.
即使是轻微程度的脱水也会降低认知和身体表现。
It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes.
获得充足的电解质也很重要。
The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are vital for the functioning of all the cells in your body, especially your neurons, or your nerve cells.
电解质、钠、镁和钾对于体内所有细胞的功能至关重要，尤其是神经元或神经细胞。
Drinking LMNT dissolved in water makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes.
饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT 可以很容易地确保您获得足够的水分和电解质。
To make sure that I'm getting proper amounts of hydration and electrolytes, I dissolve one packet of LMNT in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I first wake up in the morning, and I drink that basically first thing in the morning.
为了确保我获得适量的水合作用和电解质，当我早上第一次醒来时，我将一包 LMNT 溶解在大约 16 至 32 盎司的水中，并且我基本上早上第一件事就是喝它。
Andrew Huberman: I'll also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes.
Andrew Huberman：我还会在进行任何体育锻炼时饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT，尤其是在炎热的日子里，当我大量出汗并失去水和电解质时。
LMNT has a bunch of great-tasting flavors.
LMNT 有很多美味的口味。
I love the raspberry, I love the citrus flavor.
我喜欢覆盆子，我喜欢柑橘味。
Right now, LMNT has a limited edition lemonade flavor that is absolutely delicious.
现在LMNT推出了限量版柠檬水口味，绝对美味。
I hate to say that I love one more than all the others, but this lemonade flavor is right up there with my favorite other one, which is raspberry or watermelon.
我不想说我比其他所有口味都更喜欢其中一种，但这种柠檬水口味与我最喜欢的另一种口味（覆盆子或西瓜）不相上下。
Again, I can't pick just one flavor.
再说一次，我不能只选择一种口味。
I love them all.
我爱他们所有人。
If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman, spelled drink L-M-N-T, dot com, slash Huberman, to claim a free LMNT sample pack with a purchase of any LMNT drink mix.
如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman、拼写 Drink L-M-N-T、.com、slash Huberman，购买任何 LMNT 混合饮料即可领取免费 LMNT 样品包。
Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.
再次强调，请访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman 索取免费样品包。
Andrew Huberman: Stepping to a slightly more, I guess, intuitive and concrete aspect of consciousness and perception, I'd like to talk for a little bit about meditation and mindfulness.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我想，从意识和知觉的直观和具体方面来说，我想谈谈冥想和正念。
But not as woo concepts or even practices to reduce stress, but rather as I look at meditation as a perceptual exercise to try and access different understandings of one's experience.
但并不是为了寻求概念，甚至是减轻压力的实践，而是因为我将冥想视为一种感知练习，试图获得对一个人的经历的不同理解。
Like, we can remove the word meditation, which sounds like magic carpets, et cetera, and-
就像，我们可以删除“冥想”这个词，它听起来像魔毯等等，并且-
Christof Koch: And so, mindfulness, you mean being in the here and now and nonjudgmental?
克里斯托夫·科赫：所以，正念，你的意思是活在此时此地，不带评判？
Andrew Huberman: Forgive me.
安德鲁·休伯曼：请原谅我。
Let's remove mindfulness, and let's just say meditation.
让我们除去正念，我们只说冥想。
Christof Koch: Okay.
克里斯托夫·科赫：好的。
Andrew Huberman: So, many years ago, I read the book by Jon Kabat-Zinn, "Wherever You Go, There You Are." It's a beautiful book, both physically and in what's written there, that teaches you to sit down, pay attention to your breathing, redirect your focus, eat a single almond, focus on the experiences.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：很多年前，我读了乔恩·卡巴金的书《无论你去哪里，你就在那里》。这是一本美丽的书，无论是在内容上还是在内容上，它教你坐下来，注意你的呼吸，重新调整你的注意力，吃一颗杏仁，专注于体验。
A lot of it is about getting very present to what's happening in your immediate world, in the case of eating the almond or within the confines of your skin, so-called interoception.
其中很大一部分是关于对你眼前的世界发生的事情非常了解，比如吃杏仁或在你的皮肤范围内，即所谓的内感受。
Okay?
好的？
The non-aficionados, exteroception is perception of the outside world, interoception, perception of everything from your skin inward, essentially.
非爱好者，外感受是对外部世界的感知，内感受，本质上是从皮肤向内感知一切。
In 2015 or so, I decided that, for whatever reason, I was old enough and experienced enough with life that I could create my own meditation.
大约在 2015 年，我决定，无论出于什么原因，我已经足够大了，对生活有了足够的经验，我可以创造自己的冥想。
Andrew Huberman: Why not, right?
安德鲁·休伯曼：为什么不呢，对吧？
After all, I was born and raised in Silicon Valley.
毕竟，我是在硅谷出生和长大的。
You're supposed to build things.
你应该建造东西。
Christof Koch: Everything.
克里斯托夫·科赫：一切。
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Some people build unicorn companies.
Andrew Huberman：有些人创建了独角兽公司。
I just wanted to build a meditation that, based on my understanding of neuroscience and perception, might afford me some additional benefits.
我只是想建立一种冥想，基于我对神经科学和感知的理解，它可能会给我带来一些额外的好处。
So I essentially designed, and I'm sure other people have done it, but a meditation that, the name doesn't matter, but that essentially consists of the following.
所以我本质上是设计的，我相信其他人也已经做到了，但是一个冥想，名称并不重要，但本质上由以下内容组成。
I would sit or stand and close my eyes and just focus on everything from my skin inward, my breathing for maybe the three breath cycles, and just really focus on what's right here.
我会坐着或站着，闭上眼睛，专注于一切，从我的皮肤向内，我的呼吸（可能是三个呼吸周期），真正专注于这里的一切。
Then I would open my eyes, I would look at my body from the outside, like look at my hand and focus my attention and look there, and breathe for three cycles, you know, three breaths.
然后我会睁开眼睛，从外面看我的身体，就像看我的手，集中注意力看那里，然后呼吸三个周期，你知道，三个呼吸。
Then I would focus my attention on something maybe eight to 10 feet away and do the same, and then to the most distant point I could.
然后我会把注意力集中在八到十英尺外的某个地方，做同样的事情，然后到我能做到的最远的地方。
Andrew Huberman: And then I would imagine myself, I would kind of go pale blue dot mentality, and I would think, "Oh, I'm right here in my room or on this cliff, and we're on a big rock spinning in space." You know, and then I would go right back into my body.
安德鲁·休伯曼：然后我会想象自己，我会采取淡蓝点心态，我会想，“哦，我就在我的房间里或在这个悬崖上，我们在一块在太空中旋转的大岩石上。”你知道，然后我就会回到我的身体里。
And so, what I was doing was essentially just stepping through the different scales of space and time that one can experience easily.
所以，我所做的本质上只是跨越人们可以轻松体验的不同尺度的空间和时间。
It's very unsophisticated in many ways.
它在很多方面都非常简单。
I called it, for no other reason than I didn't have a better name, "Space-Time Bridging." I was just trying to step through each one.
我把它称为“时空桥接”，没有其他原因，只是因为我没有更好的名字。我只是想逐步完成每一项。
And I did this on purpose because, you know, I've always been bothered by like, bumper stickers and refrigerator magnets and the s*** that people say when like, "Oh, you know, absence makes the heart grow fonder."
我是故意这样做的，因为，你知道，我一直被诸如保险杠贴纸、冰箱贴以及人们所说的诸如“哦，你知道，缺席使心变得更亲近”之类的东西所困扰。
Christof Koch: No.
克里斯托夫·科赫：不。
Andrew Huberman: And you say, "Well, out of sight, out of mind." And then you say, you know, "This too shall pass." And it's like, no, you really need to feel your feelings, you know?
安德鲁·休伯曼：你说，“好吧，眼不见心不烦。”然后你说，你知道，“这也会过去的。”就像，不，你真的需要感受你的感受，你知道吗？
Like, I love the field of psychology, but it's filled with contradictions and the age-old advice, the clichés, and the truisms that are all true.
就像，我喜欢心理学领域，但它充满了矛盾和古老的建议、陈词滥调和都是真理的老生常谈。
The problem is they're all true.
问题是它们都是真的。
And I realized that different clichés, different life truths that are passed down, exist in these different bins.
我意识到，不同的陈词滥调、不同的生活真理被传承下来，存在于这些不同的垃圾箱里。
When we're really in our own experience and we're catharting or we're experiencing something, you don't just tell somebody like, "This too shall pass," unless they need to get outside themselves.
当我们真正处于自己的经历中并且我们正在宣泄或正在经历某些事情时，你不会只是告诉别人“这也会过去”，除非他们需要摆脱困境。
You can't go through life just thinking, "Well, you know, these terrible things happen, but, you know, we're just a bunch of creatures running around on this rock.
你不能在生活中只是想着：“好吧，你知道，这些可怕的事情发生了，但是，你知道，我们只是一群在这块岩石上奔跑的生物。
It's amazing we're even here." You hear this, too, right?
令人惊奇的是我们竟然在这里。”你也听到了，对吧？
"It's amazing we're even here." You wouldn't seek to try and improve your life or the life of others around you if you just kind of go...
“我们竟然在这里真是太棒了。”如果你只是想...
Andrew Huberman: And so, I realized that a lot of what's probably contained in different philosophies, and has been said far more eloquently than I ever could, was really just sort of different perceptual bins, right?
安德鲁·胡伯曼：所以，我意识到很多可能包含在不同哲学中的东西，并且已经比我能说得更雄辩的，实际上只是不同的感知箱，对吗？
And so, I've been thinking about, at some level, a few times throughout our conversation how, you know, solutions to problems seem to come from realizing the problem within the bin it exists, like where they should pray in the house yesterday or the center or wherever.
因此，在我们的谈话中，我在某种程度上一直在思考，问题的解决方案似乎如何来自于认识到问题存在于垃圾箱中，就像他们昨天应该在房子里或中心或任何地方祈祷。
But also, we have to get outside of our own experience.
但同时，我们也必须跳出我们自己的经验。
We really need some outside read of ourselves and of others in order to make well-informed decisions, and that's because the brain has its sort of attractor states.
我们确实需要对自己和他人进行一些外部解读，以便做出明智的决定，这是因为大脑有其吸引子状态。
I think the best way I ever thought about it is kind of like a ball bearing on a flat plate rolling around.
我认为我所想到的最好的方式有点像平板上滚动的滚珠轴承。
Andrew Huberman: It can go anywhere.
Andrew Huberman：它可以去任何地方。
You put a few dimples in there, and it can stop.
你在那里放几个酒窝，它就可以停下来。
You put a groove in it, and you know, there's some brain states where you're a ball bearing down at the bottom of a trench, and you're pissed or you're happy or you're in ecstasy, and then you're the ball bearing back on the flat surface again.
你在里面放了一个凹槽，你知道，有一些大脑状态，你是一个滚在沟槽底部的球，你生气、你高兴或你狂喜，然后你又是滚球回到平坦的表面。
And so, what I realized is that even with the awareness that the brain can adopt these different states, it's easy to drop into these states.
因此，我意识到，即使意识到大脑可以采用这些不同的状态，也很容易陷入这些状态。
So anyway, I'd start doing this practice just as a tool to help me better navigate life.
所以无论如何，我开始做这个练习只是为了帮助我更好地驾驭生活。
Christof Koch: need to do that?
克里斯托夫·科赫：需要这样做吗？
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I think it helps me, not always.
Andrew Huberman：是的，我认为这对我有帮助，但并不总是如此。
I'm human, and so I can't get outside myself super easily if I'm the ball bearing down at the bottom of the trench.
我是人类，所以如果我是战壕底部的滚珠，我就无法轻易摆脱自己。
Christof Koch: No sentient creature can come outside of their perception box, because your reality is always constructed by something.
克里斯托夫·科赫：没有任何有知觉的生物可以走出他们的感知框，因为你的现实总是由某些东西构建的。
Andrew Huberman: Right.
安德鲁·休伯曼：对。
Christof Koch: And computers won't be any different if they ever become sentient.
克里斯托夫·科赫：如果计算机变得有知觉，那么它们也不会有任何不同。
Andrew Huberman: So this is where I was hoping AI would help me.
Andrew Huberman：这就是我希望人工智能能够帮助我的地方。
Like, if I had a digital twin or something in my phone that would have access to something about my brain states and bodily states, that when it saw me becoming the ball bearing in the trench...
就像，如果我的手机中有一个数字双胞胎或其他东西可以访问我的大脑状态和身体状态，那么当它看到我成为战壕中的滚珠轴承时......
And we're not talking about a flow state for work or podcasting or something I enjoy or cycling or swimming, but rather a state that might not be beneficial for me or for others, that it would let me know so I could be mindful of the transition state.
我们不是在谈论工作或播客或我喜欢的东西或骑自行车或游泳的心流状态，而是一种可能对我或其他人没有好处的状态，它会让我知道，这样我就可以注意过渡状态。
Christof Koch: In principle, yeah.
克里斯托夫·科赫：原则上是的。
But of course, today's AI, they reinforce them, right?
但当然，今天的人工智能，他们加强了它们，对吧？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: You know, if you read all these horror stories about people who fall in love with AI, or those people who kill themselves because they reinforce their worst tendencies.
克里斯托夫·科赫：你知道，如果你读过所有这些关于那些爱上人工智能的人的恐怖故事，或者那些因为强化了最坏倾向而自杀的人。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: Yeah, if you have a sufficiently clever AI that, A, accesses your mental state, which right now, the only way you could do it is by you talking to it, right?
Christof Koch：是的，如果你有一个足够聪明的人工智能，A，可以访问你的精神状态，现在，你能做到的唯一方法就是与它交谈，对吗？
That's the only way.
这是唯一的办法。
In the far future, it may be able to directly access your brain, but that's not going to happen in the next 30 years, right, given the slow progression of brain technology.
在遥远的未来，它可能能够直接访问你的大脑，但考虑到大脑技术的缓慢发展，这在未来 30 年内不会发生，对吧。
You have to talk to it.
你必须和它交谈。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: So that limits it, but then in principle, it could, if it knew enough, say, "Wait a minute, do you realize, I know that you're getting in this state of anger again?" Or whatever the case may be.
克里斯托夫·科赫：所以这限制了它，但原则上，如果它知道得足够多，它可以说，“等一下，你意识到吗，我知道你又陷入了这种愤怒的状态？”或者无论如何。
We do know...
我们确实知道...
I mean, what we do know, there's this...
我的意思是，据我们所知，有这个......
So we here at the Tiny Blue Dot Foundation, here in Santa Monica, we have this workshop coming up in two weeks with a whole bunch of experts on mental health and adolescence, right?
所以，我们在圣莫尼卡的小蓝点基金会，我们将在两周内举办这个研讨会，由一大群心理健康和青春期专家参加，对吧？
You probably also know mental health has progressively, particularly in young ones, it's gotten progressively worse over 70 years.
您可能还知道，70 年来，心理健康状况日益恶化，尤其是年轻人。
I mean, this predates social media, gets accelerated by social media, gets accelerated by the pandemic, but it's really bad right now.
我的意思是，这早于社交媒体，被社交媒体加速，被大流行加速，但现在真的很糟糕。
And part of the problem is that they are very uncomfortable in their own body.
部分问题在于他们对自己的身体感到非常不舒服。
They don't have this proper interoception.
他们没有这种适当的内感受。
So, just doing some of these meditation exercises that you...
所以，只要做一些冥想练习，你...
Christof Koch: In fact, there are various therapies based on that where people...
克里斯托夫·科赫：事实上，有多种疗法基于人们......
Anorexia nervosa is the worst...
神经性厌食症是最严重的...
is for some of the more extreme cases, which is one of the most deadliest psychiatric diseases, right?
是针对一些更极端的情况，这是最致命的精神疾病之一，对吧？
Where a significant number of patients kill themselves because they believe erroneously that their body is way too fat, when they're in fact in, you know, they look to us like victims of starvation because they don't live inside their skin in any real way.
大量患者因为错误地认为自己的身体太胖而自杀，而事实上，你知道，他们在我们看来就像饥饿的受害者，因为他们没有以任何真正的方式生活在自己的皮肤里。
They haven't learned to pay attention to the interoceptive signals.
他们还没有学会注意内感受信号。
So, I think just doing a therapy based on being more body aware and realizing what states come up and understanding, yeah, these are connected with certain emotions would really...
所以，我认为只要进行一种基于更多身体意识并意识到会出现什么状态并理解的治疗，是的，这些与某些情绪有关，真的会......
And people are trying to do that, of course.
当然，人们正在努力这样做。
There are all sorts of therapies with young kids in school or out of school where they're trying to do exactly this.
对于在校或校外的幼儿，有各种各样的治疗方法，他们试图做到这一点。
Andrew Huberman: It sounds like a wonderful initiative.
Andrew Huberman：这听起来是一个很棒的举措。
I would definitely want to learn more about this because...
我肯定想了解更多有关此的信息，因为......
And I wasn't aware that adolescent mental health had been declining even prior to the advent of social media.
我并不知道，甚至在社交媒体出现之前，青少年的心理健康状况就已经在下降。
Christof Koch: I mean, there are many causes, and of course, people fight like academics always do.
克里斯托夫·科赫：我的意思是，原因有很多，当然，人们像学者们一样进行斗争。
But one of the big ones is loss of autonomous play.
但其中最大的问题之一是失去自主游戏。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: When is the last time you heard someone say, "Oh yeah, I sent my kid outside.
克里斯托夫·科赫：你最后一次听到有人说：“哦，是的，我把我的孩子送到外面了。
I haven't seen her for three hours, but you know, it's not dinner yet." Well, that's how I grew up, right?
我已经三个小时没见到她了，但你知道，还没到晚饭呢。”嗯，我就是这样长大的，对吗？
You send out the kids and they come back when they...
你把孩子们送出去，他们就回来了……
Today, that's utterly impossible.
今天，这是完全不可能的。
I mean, you know, there are these cases where parents get arrested because their 12-year-old was walking to the store by themselves.
我的意思是，你知道，在某些情况下，父母会因为 12 岁的孩子独自步行去商店而被捕。
Well, so if you don't give kids, you know, if there's constantly helicopter parents and having around, "Oh my God, don't do this, don't do that." You know, this is not good for you.
好吧，所以如果你不给孩子，你知道，如果不断有直升机父母，周围总是说：“天啊，不要这样做，不要那样做。”你知道，这对你没有好处。
This is a big driver.
这是一个很大的驱动力。
Social media is definitely a big driver, partly because of all these filters.
社交媒体绝对是一个很大的推动力，部分原因是所有这些过滤器。
So, you always compare yourself.
所以，你总是比较自己。
You know that your friends put their pictures on also through filters, but that's very easy to forget.
您知道您的朋友也会通过过滤器放置他们的照片，但这很容易被忘记。
And you see these perfect pictures of everyone else, and you look at yourself, you know, you don't look anything like this.
当你看到其他人的完美照片时，你看看自己，你知道，你看起来一点也不像这样。
Christof Koch: "Oh my God, there's something wrong with my body." And then, of course, the pandemic has made it worse because people had to stay home.
克里斯托夫·科赫：“天哪，我的身体出了问题。”当然，大流行让情况变得更糟，因为人们不得不呆在家里。
It's worldwide...
这是全世界...
I mean, it's certainly worldwide in all the advanced economies.
我的意思是，这肯定是全球所有发达经济体的情况。
So, this is in Europe, in Asia.
所以，这是在欧洲，在亚洲。
The other big driver is, I think, although no one studies this probably for...
我认为，另一个重要的驱动因素是，尽管没有人研究这个可能是为了......
Well, I leave it to you.
好吧，我把它留给你。
Family size.
家庭规模。
It used to be that people had 10 kids.
过去人们有10个孩子。
Okay?
好的？
Well, this doesn't happen anymore.
好吧，这种情况不会再发生了。
And I mean, our generation was more like two to four kids.
我的意思是，我们这一代人更像是两到四个孩子。
Now it's very common.
现在这很常见。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Christof Koch: Many families have no kids or have one child.
克里斯托夫·科赫：许多家庭没有孩子或只有一个孩子。
In China, it's the most extreme.
在中国，这是最极端的。
In China, they had three generations where they had a single child.
在中国，他们已经有三代，只有一个孩子。
That means no siblings, no cousins, no nephews, no uncles, no aunts.
这意味着没有兄弟姐妹，没有表兄弟姐妹，没有侄子，没有叔叔，没有阿姨。
You just know those from books, from abstract representation, but nothing in your experience.
你只是从书本上、从抽象的表征中知道这些，但在你的经验中却一无所知。
So this is the first in human history, and we don't really know what that does.
所以这是人类历史上的第一次，我们真的不知道它的作用。
What does it do when there aren't any siblings around to play or to interact with for good or for bad?
当周围没有兄弟姐妹可以玩耍或互动（无论好坏）时，它会做什么？
Well, what does it do to the human psyche?
那么，它对人类心理有什么作用呢？
No one does that research.
没有人做这项研究。
But I think it's an extremely interesting question.
但我认为这是一个非常有趣的问题。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, as somebody who has a very close relationship to his sibling, I can't even imagine life without a sibling.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，作为一个与兄弟姐妹关系非常密切的人，我什至无法想象没有兄弟姐妹的生活。
It just seems-
只是看起来——
Dr. Christof Koch: Yeah, imagine zero siblings.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：是的，想象一下零个兄弟姐妹。
And that's a fact of life, well, certainly in many of the Asian countries.
这就是生活中的事实，当然，在许多亚洲国家也是如此。
You know, in Korea, their birth rate now is 0.7.
要知道，在韩国，现在的出生率是0.7。
There was this recent New Yorker article where they described going to a school, and there were like three or four kids in this entire immaculate school.
最近《纽约客》有一篇文章，他们描述了去学校的情况，整个完美的学校里大约有三四个孩子。
Andrew Huberman: Wow.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哇。
Is it a cost of living issue that people are not-
这是人们不关心的生活成本问题吗？
Dr. Christof Koch: On the one hand, it's great because women, you know, can decide not to have children, of course, and so it gives them more freedom.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：一方面，这很好，因为女性当然可以决定不生孩子，因此这给了她们更多的自由。
So I think it's an unalloyed good.
所以我认为这是一种纯粹的商品。
But yeah, then healthcare's very expensive.
但是，是的，医疗保健非常昂贵。
The cost of school is very expensive.
学校的费用非常昂贵。
Your career will suffer, right?
你的事业会受到影响，对吗？
It's well known that if a woman has a child, you know, her career will be set back for all those reasons.
众所周知，如果一个女人有了孩子，她的事业就会因为所有这些原因而受挫。
You could say we are eight billion, right?
你可以说我们有八十亿，对吧？
We're not going to die out anytime soon.
我们不会很快消亡。
So I'm not judging as good and bad, I'm just saying this is what it is.
所以我不去评判好与坏，我只是说事情就是这样。
The modern family is much smaller than the family of 100 years ago, and that probably brings with it profound consequences that we are only now being very dimly aware of.
现代家庭比100年前的家庭小得多，这可能会带来我们现在才隐约意识到的深刻后果。
I think it's one of the drivers of the ever-increasing mental health crisis.
我认为这是日益严重的心理健康危机的驱动因素之一。
Dr. Christof Koch: All sorts of studies show this.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：各种研究都表明了这一点。
When you survey first and second year freshmen, some very large fraction, I don't remember the exact number anymore, 40 or 45%, of these freshmen, say they don't interact with a single person a day because it's all virtual.
当你对一年级和二年级新生进行调查时，有很大一部分，我不记得确切的数字了，这些新生中的 40% 或 45% 说，他们每天不会与一个人互动，因为这都是虚拟的。
They don't talk to anyone in person, in the flesh as it were.
他们不会亲自与任何人交谈，可以说是面对面的交谈。
Andrew Huberman: Do they want to talk to other people?
Andrew Huberman：他们想和其他人交谈吗？
Dr. Christof Koch: I don't know.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：我不知道。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Dr. Christof Koch: I don't know.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：我不知道。
Whether they're more comfortable with that?
他们是否对此感到更舒服？
Andrew Huberman: Because as you and I know that-
安德鲁·胡伯曼：因为你我都知道——
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, because as you and I know, there are some innate circuitries in the brain that more or less crave certain types of interactions, but the brain is also shaped along the contour of experience.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，因为正如你和我所知，大脑中有一些天生的电路或多或少地渴望某些类型的互动，但大脑也是沿着经验的轮廓塑造的。
And so, if you make it to 19 or 20 and you've never really gone out on a date or done this autonomous play, the body might not want to do it.
所以，如果你活到了 19 岁或 20 岁，但你从未真正出去约会或做过这种自主游戏，身体可能不想这样做。
I mean, you know, it's sort of like one of the reasons I love dogs, and this is, believe me, a genuine transition here.
我的意思是，你知道，这有点像我喜欢狗的原因之一，相信我，这是一个真正的转变。
Dr. Christof Koch: Ah, dogs.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：啊，狗。
Andrew Huberman: It's because I think they can teach us a lot.
Andrew Huberman：这是因为我认为他们可以教给我们很多东西。
Dr. Christof Koch: Yes.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And I think they can teach us a lot, not just about being friendly and not just about having fun and not being self-conscious, but I love looking at the different breeds of dogs.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我认为它们可以教给我们很多东西，不仅仅是关于友善，不仅仅是关于玩得开心，而且不要自我意识，但我喜欢观察不同品种的狗。
Actually, many years ago, a fellow neuroscientist, my then girlfriend, who I'm still friendly with, who's still a neuroscientist, took me to a dog show.
事实上，很多年前，一位神经科学家同事，我当时的女朋友，我仍然和她很友好，她仍然是一名神经科学家，带我去看了一场狗展。
And she said, "But we're not going to go look at the dogs prancing around in the arena.
她说：“但是我们不会去看那些在竞技场里蹦蹦跳跳的狗。
The real action at the dog show is behind the scenes, where you can go and meet all the different breeds." So we walk back behind the dog show.
狗展的真正表演是在幕后，你可以去那里认识所有不同的品种。”所以我们走回狗展后面。
This was in the Bay Area.
这是在湾区。
It was like a regional leading up to one of the Westminster things, I think, or some AKC thing, and you see the retrievers.
我想，这就像通往威斯敏斯特事件之一的地区，或者是 AKC 事件的一个区域，你会看到寻回犬。
You see the West Highland terriers.
你会看到西部高地梗犬。
You see the Cairn terriers.
你看到凯恩梗。
Andrew Huberman: You see the Burmese Mountain dogs.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你看到缅甸山犬。
You see the English bulldogs, you know, sleeping, like a xylophone, snoring.
你看到英国斗牛犬，你知道，它们正在睡觉，像木琴一样打鼾。
And you realize, as a biologist, but even if you're not a biologist, that each of these lines has been selected for physical and behavioral traits, and that there's some very common kind of physical manifestations of each breed.
你会意识到，作为一名生物学家，但即使你不是生物学家，这些品系中的每一个都是根据身体和行为特征而选择的，并且每个品种都有一些非常常见的身体表现。
For instance, some of the animals, when they're awake, have a lot of spontaneous movement.
例如，有些动物在清醒时会进行大量自发运动。
The bulldog has very little spontaneous movement.
斗牛犬很少有自发运动。
Dr. Christof Koch: Oh.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：哦。
Andrew Huberman: It's very parasympathetic dominant.
Andrew Huberman：副交感神经占主导地位。
I mean, it's a very durable breed.
我的意思是，这是一个非常耐用的品种。
The pain receptors have actually been bred out of its face over the years because they were originally used for bull-baiting, grab onto...
疼痛感受器实际上是多年来从它的脸上培育出来的，因为它们最初是用来诱公牛、抓住......
And they would bite through their own jowls.
他们会咬破自己的下巴。
It's a very cruel breed development.
这是一个非常残酷的品种发展。
But, you know, and it turns out the breeding out of the pain receptors is correlated with a fibronectin mutation, so that's why they're droopy, and they have the short snout, so, you know, they can grab onto the bull, and they won't get shaken off.
但是，你知道，事实证明疼痛受体的繁殖与纤连蛋白突变有关，所以这就是为什么它们下垂，而且它们的鼻子很短，所以，你知道，它们可以抓住公牛，而且不会被甩掉。
And anyway, and you get the Whippets, and the...
不管怎样，你得到了惠比特犬，还有……
And so we could go on, you know, to near infinitum here.
所以我们可以继续，你知道，在这里接近无限。
But the amazing thing is, you leave there and you start looking at people differently.
但令人惊奇的是，你离开那里，你开始以不同的方式看待人们。
You say, "Oh, you know, it's interesting.
你说：“哦，你知道，这很有趣。
In some cultures, people move a lot." I just came from Italy.
在某些文化中，人们经常搬家。”我刚从意大利来。
They're speaking a lot with their hands a lot.
他们经常用手说话。
Other people, you know...
其他人，你知道...
Andrew Huberman: I've been to a lot of scientific meetings in certain parts of Europe, and you know, places not to be named, but you fill in, where people are very...
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：我参加过欧洲某些地区的很多科学会议，你知道，那些地方没有被命名，但你填写一下，那里的人们非常......
You know, postures are perfect, and hands move very little.
要知道，姿势很完美，手的动作却很少。
Other places where people are gesticulating all the time, and so on and on and on.
其他地方人们一直在打手势，等等。
Dr. Christof Koch: But the question is, is that bred or is that because, of course, people outbreed, or is that just cultural variation in that case?
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：但问题是，这是繁殖的还是因为，当然，人们近亲繁殖，或者这只是文化差异？
Andrew Huberman: I think it's both.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为两者都是。
I think it's both, certainly, but what's so interesting to me is that in observing different dogs, you sort of get, in my view, a kind of a portal into different kinds of levels of autonomic, what I think of as kind of like the resting RPM.
我认为两者都是，当然，但对我来说最有趣的是，在观察不同的狗时，在我看来，你有点进入不同种类的自主水平的门户，我认为有点像静止的转速。
Where, you know, it's like when a car is idling at a certain rate.
你知道，这就像汽车以一定的速度空转一样。
Some dogs idle at a certain rate.
有些狗以一定的速度闲置。
Other dogs, like the bulldog, are very idle at a much lower frequency.
其他狗，比如斗牛犬，非常空闲，频率要低得多。
And some people are like this, right?
而有些人就是这样的，对吧？
Some people just have a lot of spontaneous movement.
有些人只是有很多自发的运动。
Some people are very relaxed.
有些人非常放松。
Dr. Christof Koch: And does that correlate with the...
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：这与……相关吗？
Because in the human literature, there's this statistical claim that, you know, longevity relates inversely to resting heart rate in the sense that you have two billion heartbeats, and depending on your rate, there are some statistics.
因为在人类文献中，有这样的统计数据：你知道，寿命与静息心率成反比，因为你有二十亿次心跳，并且根据你的心率，有一些统计数据。
And I know it's true across species, right?
我知道这对于所有物种来说都是如此，对吗？
You have these small animals, like birds or mice, that have a very high resting rate.
这些小动物，如鸟类或老鼠，具有非常高的休息率。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yep.
是的。
Dr. Christof Koch: And then typically, bigger animals have a lower resting rate, and I wonder how that is among dog species.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：通常情况下，体型较大的动物的静息率较低，我想知道狗类的情况如何。
Andrew Huberman: It's very interesting.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这非常有趣。
Dr. Christof Koch: Dog breeds.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：狗的品种。
Andrew Huberman: Certainly, lifespan correlates inversely with body size in dog breeds.
安德鲁·休伯曼：当然，狗品种的寿命与体型成反比。
Largest variation in body size of any species, I believe, yeah, are the Chihuahuas and the Great Danes.
我相信，所有物种中体型差异最大的是吉娃娃狗和大丹狗。
Dr. Christof Koch: Yeah.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I think it's an IGF-1 gene that drives...
Andrew Huberman：我认为 IGF-1 基因驱动......
The dosing of IGF-1 essentially dictates body size in the dogs.
IGF-1 的剂量基本上决定了狗的体型大小。
Dr. Christof Koch: Huh.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: The genes that scale.
Andrew Huberman：可扩展的基因。
There's a beautiful cover of "Science" with a little tiny teacup Chihuahua and the biggest Great Dane that ever existed, and they map it to IGF-1.
《科学》有一个漂亮的封面，上面有一只小茶杯吉娃娃犬和有史以来最大的大丹犬，他们将其映射到 IGF-1。
Dr. Christof Koch: Huh.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: But there's an interesting case of spontaneous movement and longevity that the great choreographer, Twyla Tharp, she was a ballerina, et cetera.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但是有一个关于自发运动和长寿的有趣例子，伟大的编舞家特怀拉·撒普（Twyla Tharp），她是一名芭蕾舞演员，等等。
She claims...
她声称...
I love her.
我爱她。
She has a wonderful book called "The Creative Habit," and she claims that as people get older, one of the reasons that they slow down so much is that...
她有一本很棒的书，名叫《创意习惯》，她声称，随着人们年龄的增长，他们放慢脚步的原因之一是……
And she's not a neuroscientist, but she hypothesizes that they engage in a lot less spontaneous movement.
她不是神经科学家，但她假设他们的自发运动要少得多。
Not just physical exercise, but their bodies aren't as active.
不仅仅是体育锻炼，他们的身体也没有那么活跃。
And her whole career has been made of understanding the relationship between mind and body, and she insists that once you stop moving less, even just about your day, your brain starts shutting down circuitry, and then eventually you die.
她的整个职业生涯都是为了理解身心之间的关系，她坚持认为，一旦你停止减少运动，即使是在一天中，你的大脑就会开始关闭电路，最终你就会死亡。
And she's very vigorous, still in her 80s.
而且她精神抖擞，依然是80多岁的年纪。
Andrew Huberman: It's a theory, but I feel like these things hold together.
Andrew Huberman：这是一个理论，但我觉得这些东西是结合在一起的。
We can learn a lot from animals.
我们可以从动物身上学到很多东西。
This is the point, I suppose.
我想这就是重点。
Dr. Christof Koch: Yeah.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：是的。
For humans, aging is also true for cognitive flexibility.
对于人类来说，衰老对于认知灵活性来说也是如此。
You certainly become less flexible, you become less willing to engage in new things as you age, right?
随着年龄的增长，你肯定会变得越来越不灵活，越来越不愿意接触新事物，对吗？
Andrew Huberman: Your perception box is full.
Andrew Huberman：你的感知箱已满。
Dr. Christof Koch: Well, maybe your motivation, your curiosity becomes less, and your motivation, I think that's a difference, right?
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：嗯，也许你的动机、你的好奇心变少了，我认为你的动机是有区别的，对吗？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Dr. Christof Koch: You say, "Eh, I've done this 100 times, I don't need to do it a 101st time."
Christof Koch 博士：你说，“呃，我已经这样做了 100 次，我不需要做第 101 次。”
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Dr. Christof Koch: "Yeah, I know what he's going to say already ahead of time.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：“是的，我已经提前知道他要说什么了。
I don't need to listen to-"
我不需要听——”
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Cynicism is the death of all people.
犬儒主义是所有人的死亡。
I really believe that cynicism is the thing that shuts us down.
我真的相信愤世嫉俗是让我们封闭的原因。
Like, the worst thing that could happen, truly the very worst thing that could happen as a consequence of what we observed yesterday, would be that people start to just become cynical.
就像，可能发生的最糟糕的事情，确实是我们昨天观察到的结果可能发生的最糟糕的事情，就是人们开始变得愤世嫉俗。
Like, "We'll never make it out of this trap." That would be the worst outcome, right?
就像，“我们永远无法摆脱这个陷阱。”这将是最坏的结果，对吗？
Because we still need people, especially young people.
因为我们还需要人，尤其是年轻人。
We need all people to believe that we can overcome these fundamental aspects of our wiring.
我们需要所有人相信我们可以克服布线的这些基本问题。
Dr. Christof Koch: And we can make a difference.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：我们可以做出改变。
Dr. Christof Koch: And correct.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：正确。
That's essential, also, for any sort of therapy.
对于任何类型的治疗来说，这也是至关重要的。
A willingness to believe that this therapy can make a difference.
愿意相信这种疗法可以有所作为。
Andrew Huberman: So how do we instill that in...
Andrew Huberman：那么我们如何将这一点灌输......
You know?
你知道吗？
Dr. Christof Koch: Well, I mean, in a sense that's a placebo effect, right?
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：嗯，我的意思是，从某种意义上说，这是一种安慰剂效应，对吗？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Dr. Christof Koch: This is what the placebo effect tells us, that if you have someone in a white coat that says, "Dr. So-and-so," that has a stethoscope and that has a particular pill, this has all been studied, right, can make a difference.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：这就是安慰剂效应告诉我们的，如果有人穿着白大褂，上面写着“某某医生”，拿着听诊器，拿着一种特殊的药丸，这一切都已经被研究过了，对吧，可以产生影响。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Dr. Christof Koch: And then you read about it, that this pill, you read about it, or your friends tell me, "Yeah, this pill will work wonders." And so, therefore, it does work wonders, right?
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：然后你读到了这个药丸，你读到了它，或者你的朋友告诉我，“是的，这个药丸会产生奇迹。”因此，它确实能创造奇迹，对吗？
So, that's essentially your belief that finds its substrate somewhere in the brain.
所以，这本质上是你的信念在大脑的某个地方找到了它的底物。
Do you know this interesting study?
你知道这项有趣的研究吗？
Another colleague of yours, Boris Heifets, is a neuro-anesthesiologist at Stanford Med School?
你的另一位同事鲍里斯·海菲茨 (Boris Heifets) 是斯坦福大学医学院的神经麻醉师？
Andrew Huberman: Tell me.
安德鲁·休伯曼：告诉我。
Dr. Christof Koch: It came out a couple of years ago with ketamine.
Christof Koch 博士：几年前它与氯胺酮一起问世。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Dr. Christof Koch: So he looked at the subset of patients that had to go-- This was, I think, "Nature Medicine," that had to go to surgery, but they were depressed.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：所以他研究了必须接受手术的患者子集，我认为这是“自然医学”，他们必须接受手术，但他们很沮丧。
So they went to surgery because of a hernia or whatever the surgery was.
所以他们因为疝气或其他什么手术而接受了手术。
But then he looked over many years, only at people who were depressed on the MADRS scale, you know, the standard scale, how you evaluate, how clinical personnel evaluate depression.
但后来他看了很多年，只关注那些在 MADRS 量表上感到抑郁的人，你知道，标准量表，你如何评估，临床人员如何评估抑郁症。
And then he split them into two groups.
然后他把他们分成两组。
Both would get ketamine therapy, but doing full-level surgical anesthesia that they needed to do their surgery.
两人都将接受氯胺酮治疗，但需要进行手术所需的全面手术麻醉。
Okay?
好的？
That was in addition to...
那是除了...
And so, half the people...
那么，一半的人...
Everyone got the treatment, everyone talked for six hours with therapists and psychotherapists, and with him.
每个人都接受了治疗，每个人都与治疗师和心理治疗师以及他一起交谈了六个小时。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Dr. Christof Koch: He said, "I held the hand of every one of these 40 patients during anesthesia," because I was the attendant.
Christof Koch 医生：他说，“在麻醉过程中，我握住了这 40 名患者中每一位患者的手”，因为我是护理人员。
Dr. Christof Koch: So the good news is the people on the anesthesia who got the ketamine still got the typical drop, you know, that looks like this.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：好消息是接受氯胺酮麻醉的人仍然会出现典型的下降，你知道，看起来像这样。
A quick drop in the first couple of days, and then it stabilizes.
前几天快速下降，然后趋于稳定。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Dr. Christof Koch: The interesting news is, the people on the other arm that didn't get ketamine also had this.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：有趣的消息是，另一只手臂上没有服用氯胺酮的人也有这种情况。
In fact, what predicted how the drop was the extent to which you believed you got the ketamine.
事实上，预测下降程度的是你相信自己服用氯胺酮的程度。
So, it's a beautiful example of if you believe something, it is more likely to lead to therapeutic benefits.
所以，这是一个很好的例子，如果你相信某件事，它就更有可能带来治疗效果。
And so, cynicism works directly against that because if I say, "Ah, whatever, it's just another pill.
因此，愤世嫉俗会直接反对这一点，因为如果我说，“啊，不管怎样，这只是另一种药而已。
It's not going to do anything," then it's much less likely to actually work.
它不会做任何事情”，那么它实际上起作用的可能性就小得多。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Well, incredible.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯，难以置信。
I wasn't aware of that study.
我不知道这项研究。
Dr. Christof Koch: Boris Heifets.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：鲍里斯·海菲茨。
Andrew Huberman: I'll definitely look at the study.
Andrew Huberman：我一定会看看这项研究。
You know, one of the reasons I'm troubled by what I would refer to as kind of the lack of heroes nowadays, even heroes from the past, is that it breeds such cynicism.
你知道，我对当今缺乏英雄（甚至是过去的英雄）感到困扰的原因之一是它滋生了这种犬儒主义。
Dr. Christof Koch: Yup.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：是的。
Andrew Huberman: You know, when I was growing up, I was told that George Washington never told a lie.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你知道，在我成长的过程中，有人告诉我乔治·华盛顿从不说谎。
I was told that Martin Luther King was a flawless human being, or at least his flaws were not made apparent to me.
有人告诉我，马丁·路德·金是一个完美的人，或者至少他的缺点对我来说并不明显。
And so, I focused on what he accomplished well.
因此，我专注于他所取得的出色成就。
I think nowadays there's a tendency to look into the past, the present, and to find flaws in people.
我认为现在有一种倾向，审视过去、现在，并寻找人们的缺点。
And as a consequence, we don't really have true heroes.
结果，我们并没有真正的英雄。
I mean, there are some people who do spectacular things, Alex Honnold being a good example, and lead a very good and honest life, love his wife and kids, et cetera.
我的意思是，有些人做了令人惊叹的事情，亚历克斯·霍诺德就是一个很好的例子，并且过着非常美好和诚实的生活，爱他的妻子和孩子等等。
But those examples are rare, you know?
但这些例子很少见，你知道吗？
Typically, the idea is to either expect perfection or to look for flaws and to puncture whatever else they happen to accomplish.
通常，他们的想法是要么期望完美，要么寻找缺陷并破坏他们碰巧完成的任何其他事情。
Dr. Christof Koch: Look for flaws.
Christof Koch 博士：寻找缺陷。
Andrew Huberman: Now, there are true criminals and people who really screw up, but this notion of embracing human nature as sometimes including flaws has been pretty extreme.
安德鲁·休伯曼：现在，有真正的罪犯和真正搞砸的人，但这种接受人性有时包括缺陷的观念相当极端。
And you know, so much so that even on, I don't know what the situation is at Stanford, but many buildings and statues, et cetera, have been taken down and renamed because there was a darker portion of somebody's history that didn't match with their incredible accomplishments.
你知道，以至于我不知道斯坦福大学的情况如何，但许多建筑物和雕像等已被拆除并重新命名，因为某人历史中存在与他们令人难以置信的成就不相符的黑暗部分。
Dr. Christof Koch: Yes.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：是的。
Andrew Huberman: So, essentially, we've been fertilizing cynicism.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，本质上，我们一直在滋生愤世嫉俗。
And I worry very much about that, because the brain is plastic at every age, especially when people are young, so if you wire cynicism in deeply into these circuits, you go through life as a cynical person.
我非常担心这一点，因为大脑在每个年龄段都是可塑的，尤其是当人们年轻的时候，所以如果你将愤世嫉俗深深地融入到这些回路中，你就会成为一个愤世嫉俗的人。
Dr. Christof Koch: Yes.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：是的。
Andrew Huberman: You become Scrooge.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你变成了守财奴。
Dr. Christof Koch: And I think you're right.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：我认为你是对的。
You're right to worry.
你的担心是对的。
We judge everything by our standards, and of course, the future will judge us for doing atrocious things to animals, to the environment, you know, but we don't worry about that.
我们用自己的标准来评判一切，当然，未来会评判我们对动物、对环境做出的残暴行为，你知道，但我们并不担心这一点。
We just judge people because they said something, or they've written a book, or they advocated for this particular position that now is untenable.
我们只是因为人们说了些什么，或者他们写了一本书，或者他们提倡现在站不住脚的特定立场而评判他们。
Yeah, I agree with you.
是的，我同意你的观点。
It's terrible.
太可怕了。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, or they made mistakes in domains of their life.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，或者他们在生活领域犯了错误。
Dr. Christof Koch: Don't we all?
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：我们都不是吗？
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Christof Koch: Don't we all?
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：我们都不是吗？
But that's never acknowledged.
但这从未得到承认。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Dr. Christof Koch: Current activists are perfect, and they take the right to judge everyone in the past by their criteria.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：现在的活动家是完美的，他们有权用自己的标准来评判过去的每个人。
Yeah.
是的。
It's what you said, this other perception box, this other mindset.
这就是你所说的，另一种感知框，另一种心态。
"If you don't measure up to my moral standards, I'm not going to talk to you."
“如果你达不到我的道德标准，我就不会和你说话。”
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
So we have these two ends of the continuum.
所以我们有连续体的两端。
I would say...
我会说...
You framed it up as curiosity versus cynicism.
你将其描述为好奇心与愤世嫉俗。
Curiosity is pro-plasticity.
好奇心是可塑性的。
You evolve your consciousness.
你进化你的意识。
Dr. Christof Koch: And it's beneficial for you and for the society.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：这对你和社会都有好处。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, and cynicism shuts the perception box.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，愤世嫉俗关闭了感知框。
Dr. Christof Koch: It's the opposite.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：恰恰相反。
Dr. Christof Koch: Yeah.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：是的。
Closes it.
关闭它。
And makes you not believe in the possibility of life, including changing your own faults, because, "Yeah, it's all cynical.
让你不相信生活的可能性，包括改变自己的错误，因为，“是的，这都是愤世嫉俗的。
Nothing works anyhow.
无论如何，什么都行不通。
The doctor's just trying to sell me another therapy so they can make money." Yeah, then it's not going to help you if that's really what you believe.
医生只是想向我推销另一种疗法，这样他们就可以赚钱。”是的，如果你真的这么认为，那么它不会对你有帮助。
Yeah, it's very bad cynicism.
是的，这是非常糟糕的愤世嫉俗。
So in some sense, I agree with you.
所以从某种意义上来说，我同意你的观点。
It's the worst sin to not believe in humans anymore and the possibility of the human spirit to get out of bad situations, like the one we may be currently in.
不再相信人类，以及人类精神摆脱困境的可能性，就像我们目前可能所处的困境，这是最严重的罪过。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I mean, deaths of despair are one of the primary causes of death in people younger than 30.
Andrew Huberman：是的，我的意思是，绝望死亡是 30 岁以下人群死亡的主要原因之一。
Dr. Christof Koch: Yes.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I heard a hearing with the previous NIH director right before the administrations changed, and it was incredible to see all these quite well-meaning, on both sides of the political aisle, but let's be honest, old people talking about...
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：在政府更迭之前，我听到了前任 NIH 主任的听证会，令人难以置信的是，看到政治双方的所有这些都是善意的，但说实话，老人们在谈论......
Dr. Christof Koch: Oh, those be fighting words.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：哦，这些都是战斗的话。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, well, they're old.
Andrew Huberman：是的，好吧，他们老了。
Andrew Huberman: And they're old, and they were focusing so much on all the incredible benefits that research has provided for the treatment of diseases that people experience as they get older.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：他们已经老了，他们非常关注研究为治疗人们随着年龄增长而经历的疾病所提供的所有令人难以置信的好处。
You know, life spans have gotten longer and quality of life has actually gotten much higher for people in...
你知道，人们的寿命变得更长，生活质量实际上也提高了很多......
I'm in this age bracket now, in the 50 and up bracket.
我现在正处于这个年龄段，50岁以上。
But then the previous director of the NIH, Bertozzi, I think, her last name was...
但国家卫生研究院的前任院长贝尔托齐，我想，她的姓氏是……
Caroline Bertozzi?
卡罗琳·贝尔托齐？
Forgive me if I'm getting the first name wrong.
如果我的名字写错了，请原谅我。
In any case, quite aptly, she said, "We can't forget that for people 40 and younger, they have a lot of potential life ahead of them, but deaths of despair are killing them at rates that are far greater than at any time in history.
无论如何，她非常恰当地说道：“我们不能忘记，对于 40 岁及以下的人来说，他们还有很多潜在的生活等着他们，但绝望的死亡正在以远远高于历史上任何时期的速度杀死他们。
They're very ill despite not being physically ill."
尽管他们没有身体不适，但他们病得很重。”
Andrew Huberman: And, you know, that was a shock to me, and I really appreciated that she stood up and said that because, of course, she's a member of the other cohort.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你知道，这让我感到震惊，我真的很感激她站起来这么说，因为当然，她是另一个群体的成员。
And it made me realize that taking care of that problem is perhaps-
这让我意识到解决这个问题也许是——
Dr. Christof Koch: What's more important because they also last.
Christof Koch 博士：更重要的是因为它们也很耐用。
Andrew Huberman: More important.
安德鲁·休伯曼：更重要的是。
Thank you, yeah.
谢谢你，是的。
Dr. Christof Koch: They are the ones that form, you know, the future society, the future lawyers and politicians and businesspeople, right?
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：你知道，他们是未来社会、未来律师、政治家和商人的组成部分，对吧？
And, of course, they have a much longer portion of life left to live than the old folks.
当然，他们的寿命比老年人要长得多。
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: I think we need to reduce cynicism and increase curiosity.
Andrew Huberman：我认为我们需要减少愤世嫉俗并增加好奇心。
Dr. Christof Koch: Yes.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Dr. Christof Koch: And compassion with everyone.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：对每个人都充满同情心。
Yeah, you were, again, just alluding to the mental health crisis.
是的，你再次提到了心理健康危机。
Yes, a lot of this is mental health.
是的，其中很大一部分是心理健康问题。
They physically are fine, but they are super anxious, lonely.
他们的身体状况很好，但他们非常焦虑、孤独。
You know, people drink less, have less sex.
你知道，人们喝酒更少，性生活也更少。
They live longer with their parents.
他们与父母一起生活的时间更长。
They're much more anxious than any previous generation.
他们比之前的任何一代人都更加焦虑。
Although we are so much richer, we are so much better off than they feel worth.
尽管我们比他们富有得多，但我们的生活却比他们认为的价值要好得多。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Dr. Christof Koch: People say, "Well, isn't it horrible?" Well, how was it in 1918 after World War I, right, after the previous generation had slaughtered itself?
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：人们会说，“这不是很可怕吗？”那么，第一次世界大战后的 1918 年，也就是上一代人自杀之后，情况如何？
How was it growing up under the shadow of nuclear annihilation, right?
是怎样在核毁灭的阴影下成长起来的吧？
Cold War.
冷战。
So today, this isn't a particularly unique point in that, there have always been troubles, there have always been wars, there have always been people that suffered, but what's so different is this cynicism and the belief, "Well, it's part of the system.
所以今天，这并不是一个特别独特的点，因为总是有麻烦，总是有战争，总是有人受苦，但如此不同的是这种愤世嫉俗和信念，“嗯，这是体系的一部分。
There's nothing we can do about it." And so, you wonder where this culture is in its natural evolution.
我们对此无能为力。”因此，您想知道这种文化的自然演变处于什么位置。
Andrew Huberman: Well, I won't suggest that people all run out and do psychedelics, because that would be irresponsible.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：嗯，我不会建议人们都跑出去服用迷幻药，因为那是不负责任的。
People with a predisposition to psychosis or bipolar conditions would put themselves at risk.
患有精神病或躁郁症倾向的人会将自己置于危险之中。
But I am going to put a flag in the ground for trying to encourage curiosity and limit cynicism, especially for the next generation.
但我将在地上竖起一面旗帜，试图鼓励好奇心并限制愤世嫉俗，尤其是对于下一代。
I mean, part of the reason for having this podcast is so that people can access people like you who think about these issues, think about where they've been kind of pigeonholed into a particular way of thinking, and realize, "Wait, I'm a conscious being.
我的意思是，举办这个播客的部分原因是为了让人们能够接触到像你这样思考这些问题的人，思考他们在哪里被归类为某种特定的思维方式，并意识到，“等等，我是一个有意识的存在。
I can actually make choices." It takes work, as you pointed out.
我实际上可以做出选择。”正如您所指出的，这需要工作。
No one can be lazy about this.
任何人都不能在这一点上偷懒。
But I don't actually believe that the younger generation is lazy.
但我其实并不认为年轻一代是懒惰的。
Their anterior mid-cingulate cortices, they're firing like crazy.
他们的前中扣带皮层疯狂地放电。
Dr. Christof Koch: They're not lazy.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：他们并不懒惰。
Andrew Huberman: It's just, they need to know which direction to put it.
Andrew Huberman：只是，他们需要知道该往哪个方向放。
And I feel like growing up, I was told, "Hey, listen, pick a vocation that you like and that maybe you can make a living doing, and just go for it." And it was just all-in.
我觉得自己长大了，有人告诉我，“嘿，听着，选择一个你喜欢的职业，也许你可以以此谋生，然后就去做吧。”这只是全押。
There wasn't this idea of how it might turn out because you kind of understood, well, you work hard, things work out, more or less.
没有关于结果如何的想法，因为你有点理解，嗯，你努力工作，事情或多或少都会成功。
I want to ask you two more questions that are going to seem very at odds with one another, but they're just two independent questions.
我想再问你两个问题，这两个问题看起来彼此非常矛盾，但它们只是两个独立的问题。
The first question is about Jennifer Aniston, and the second question is about the meaning of life.
第一个问题是关于詹妮弗·安妮斯顿的，第二个问题是关于生命的意义的。
So first, we're in Los Angeles.
首先，我们在洛杉矶。
A lot of actors here.
这里有很多演员。
Jennifer Aniston is a very famous actor.
詹妮弗·安妮斯顿是一位非常著名的演员。
And you know a thing or two about Jennifer Aniston and brains and neurons and firing of neurons, so maybe you could share that discovery with us.
你对詹妮弗·安妮斯顿、大脑、神经元和神经元放电略知一二，所以也许你可以与我们分享这一发现。
I think it's a fascinating and important one for people to know about.
我认为这是一件令人着迷且重要的事情，值得人们了解。
Dr. Christof Koch: Yeah, so this was 20 years ago, roughly when I was a professor here at Caltech, and I worked with a group of a neurosurgeon called Itzhak Fried at the UCLA Epileptic Unit.
克里斯托夫·科赫 (Christof Koch) 博士：是的，那是 20 年前的事了，当时我还是加州理工学院的教授，我在加州大学洛杉矶分校癫痫科与一群名叫伊扎克·弗里德 (Itzhak Fried) 的神经外科医生一起工作。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Dr. Christof Koch: So, he had to monitor people's brains for epileptic seizures.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：所以，他必须监测人们的大脑是否有癫痫发作。
And in some of these patients, they put in electrodes to listen to individual neurons, so you can hear the "drrt, drrt, drrt," you know, the staccato sound that neurons make when they communicate with each other using action potentials.
在其中一些患者中，他们放入电极来聆听单个神经元的声音，这样你就可以听到“drrt，drrt，drrt”，你知道，神经元使用动作电位相互交流时发出的断奏声音。
And so this afforded us a very unique window into actually listening to a human brain when humans do what they do on the ward, they watch movies or, you know, they're bored.
因此，这为我们提供了一个非常独特的窗口，让我们能够真正聆听人类大脑的声音，当人们在病房里做事、看电影或者，你知道，他们感到无聊时。
They have to wait.
他们必须等待。
They have to be on a ward in this state where their brain is monitored for a couple of days until they have seizures to help the neurologist pinpoint exactly where the seizure originates.
在这种状态下，他们必须在病房里接受几天的大脑监测，直到他们出现癫痫发作，以帮助神经科医生准确定位癫痫发作的根源。
So, this is done to help these patients.
因此，这样做是为了帮助这些患者。
And so, Rodrigo Quiroga was a postdoc at the time in my lab, and Gabriel Kreiman, who's now at Harvard.
因此，罗德里戈·基罗加（Rodrigo Quiroga）当时是我实验室的博士后，加布里埃尔·克雷曼（Gabriel Kreiman）现在在哈佛大学。
Dr. Christof Koch: He was a student in my lab.
Christof Koch 博士：他是我实验室的学生。
They recorded from these neurons, and when they found these neurons.
他们记录了这些神经元的情况，以及他们何时发现这些神经元的情况。
At first, they had great difficulty believing that they existed.
起初，他们很难相信它们的存在。
So, they showed people...
所以，他们向人们展示了...
So, in a mouse lab or in a monkey lab, we would've shown random dots or something, or bars or a banana.
因此，在小鼠实验室或猴子实验室中，我们会显示随机的点或其他东西，或者条形或香蕉。
Andrew Huberman: Bananas.
安德鲁·休伯曼：香蕉。
Banana.
香蕉。
Dr. Christof Koch: But, you know, humans, particularly in this part of the brain, hippocampus, amygdala, entorhinal cortex, don't much care about that.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：但是，你知道，人类，特别是大脑的这一部分，海马体，杏仁核，内嗅皮层，并不太关心这一点。
So, we showed them things that people care about, buildings, famous buildings, people, and actors.
所以，我们向他们展示了人们关心的东西，建筑物，著名的建筑，人物和演员。
And then we found there was a Bill Clinton cell, and there was famously a Jennifer Aniston cell.
然后我们发现有一个比尔·克林顿细胞，还有一个著名的詹妮弗·安妮斯顿细胞。
So there's a cell that responded prima-- So you only have a limited amount of time.
所以有一个细胞首先做出反应——所以你只有有限的时间。
It's important to note.
值得注意的是。
So, we cannot show them all possible images of all possible actors on an app.
因此，我们无法向他们展示应用程序上所有可能演员的所有可能图像。
It's simply not possible.
这根本不可能。
You show them 100 to 200 images.
你向他们展示 100 到 200 张图像。
For each image, you want to show three or four times, randomly shuffled.
对于每个图像，您希望显示三到四次，并随机打乱。
So, it turned out there were some cells that responded uniquely to specific individuals, like Jennifer Aniston.
因此，事实证明，有些细胞对特定个体有独特的反应，比如詹妮弗·安妮斯顿。
Not interestingly, she was married at the time to...
不足为奇的是，她当时已经结婚了……
Andrew Huberman: Ooh, I don't know this stuff.
Andrew Huberman：哦，我不知道这些。
Dr. Christof Koch: Brad Pitt.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：布拉德·皮特。
Thank you.
谢谢。
So, the neuron didn't fire to Brad Pitt and Jennifer Aniston, but fired specifically to different pictures of Jennifer Aniston.
因此，神经元不会向布拉德·皮特和詹妮弗·安妮斯顿发射信号，而是专门向詹妮弗·安妮斯顿的不同照片发射信号。
Some other cells fired to other people, including sometimes their names.
其他一些细胞向其他人发出信号，有时甚至包括他们的名字。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Dr. Christof Koch: Okay.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：好的。
So it turns out that if you are familiar with people like Donald Trump, okay, our president, for better or worse, we all have neurons.
事实证明，如果你熟悉唐纳德·特朗普这样的人，好吧，我们的总统，无论好坏，我们都有神经元。
That's a claim, ultimately, that there are neurons in the brain that respond relatively specifically when I tell you Donald Trump, when I just mention him, or when you dream of Trump, or imagine him, or see him on a podcast.
归根结底，这是一种说法，即当我告诉你唐纳德·特朗普时，当我刚刚提到他时，或者当你梦见特朗普、想象他或在播客上看到他时，大脑中的神经元会做出相对具体的反应。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Dr. Christof Koch: There will be specific cells because it makes sense.
Christof Koch 博士：会有特定的细胞，因为这是有道理的。
Because these people, like your family, your friends, the people you work with, they're so important.
因为这些人，就像你的家人、朋友、同事一样，非常重要。
Your brain has decided to wire up neurons that respond to these specific images.
你的大脑已决定连接对这些特定图像做出反应的神经元。
And of course, we find something like that in deep neural networks.
当然，我们在深度神经网络中也发现了类似的东西。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Dr. Christof Koch: It's been difficult to find these in other animals, partly because animals don't have this repertoire of knowing, you know, thousands or tens of thousands of different people, right?
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：很难在其他动物身上找到这些特征，部分原因是动物不具备了解成千上万不同人的能力，对吗？
You and I can recognize probably instantaneously 10,000 different people.
你我大概可以瞬间认出一万个不同的人。
It's something unique to the human species.
这是人类独有的东西。
Yeah, so it's now sort of part of textbook knowledge, including the name Jennifer Aniston.
是的，所以它现在已经成为教科书知识的一部分，包括詹妮弗·安妮斯顿这个名字。
What's really funny, I had a postdoc, Liad Mudrik, she's now a professor at Tel Aviv.
真正有趣的是，我有一位博士后，利亚德·穆德里克（Liad Mudrik），她现在是特拉维夫的教授。
Part-time, she interviewed people for a living, and she talked to Jennifer Aniston about this.
她以兼职为生，以采访他人为生，并与詹妮弗·安妮斯顿谈论过此事。
She had no idea, Jennifer Aniston, that these neurons were there.
詹妮弗·安妮斯顿，她不知道这些神经元在那里。
It was very interesting...
这非常有趣...
Andrew Huberman: Very cool.
安德鲁·休伯曼：非常酷。
And as you describe all this, people's Jennifer Aniston cells are firing.
正如你所描述的这一切，人们的詹妮弗·安妮斯顿细胞正在放电。
Dr. Christof Koch: Yes.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：是的。
That's the idea .
就是这个想法。
Andrew Huberman: Specifically.
安德鲁·休伯曼：具体来说。
And Donald Trump cells.
还有唐纳德·特朗普的细胞。
Dr. Christof Koch: Yes, yes, yes.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：是的，是的，是的。
Andrew Huberman: I have to say, I went to the US Open recently, the men's final of the US Open.
Andrew Huberman：我不得不说，我最近去了美国公开赛，美国公开赛的男子决赛。
It was spectacular.
太壮观了。
And Donald Trump was there, so he was some distance away, but I got to see him, and it's very interesting when you see somebody that you've only seen represented on a screen in real life.
唐纳德·特朗普也在场，所以他离我有一段距离，但我还是看到了他，当你看到一个在现实生活中只在屏幕上见过的人时，这是非常有趣的。
He looks exactly the way he does on the screen, mind you, but it was so interesting to just realize that real and virtual worlds collide in those moments, and probably reinforce our maps.
请注意，他看起来和屏幕上的一模一样，但意识到现实世界和虚拟世界在那些时刻发生碰撞，并可能强化我们的地图，真是太有趣了。
Dr. Christof Koch: Yes.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Like, we're bringing all these priors to our understanding of the person.
Andrew Huberman：就像，我们将所有这些先验知识带入我们对这个人的理解中。
The difference in priors was read out in the stadium when his name was read out by either...
当他的名字被读出时，先验的差异在体育场被读出......
It was totally a bipolar distribution.
这完全是一个两极分布。
One group booed, the other group cheered.
一组发出嘘声，另一组欢呼。
It was just like there was nothing in the...
就好像里面什么都没有一样……
There were probably some silent folks, but it was just, like, very...
可能有一些沉默的人，但这只是，就像，非常......
I mean, if you could record from every person like you would record from a bunch of neurons, it was actually a very interesting kind of emergent phenomenon.
我的意思是，如果你可以像记录一堆神经元一样记录每个人的记录，那么这实际上是一种非常有趣的新兴现象。
But anyway, I'm digressing a bit.
但无论如何，我有点离题了。
Jennifer Aniston cells, thank you for the-
詹妮弗·安妮斯顿细胞，谢谢你-
Dr. Christof Koch: So interesting.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：太有趣了。
People had difficulty believing that because it was generally assumed that what's called "the grandmother hypothesis," just a term that the field came up with for various historical reasons...
人们很难相信这一点，因为人们普遍认为所谓的“祖母假说”只是该领域由于各种历史原因而提出的一个术语......
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Dr. Christof Koch: The idea that neurons in your brain that represent your grandmother is obviously ridiculous.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：大脑中的神经元代表你的祖母的想法显然是荒谬的。
But it turned out, no. If your grandmother's an important person for you, you very likely will have neurons that fire in response to grandma.
但事实证明，没有。如果你的祖母对你来说是一个重要的人，你很可能会有对祖母做出反应的神经元。
Andrew Huberman: You're extremely well-read, and you read from different areas of science and philosophy, and et cetera.
安德鲁·休伯曼：您博览群书，阅读了科学和哲学等不同领域的内容。
I know a number of people, including myself, are probably curious to do their own exploration.
我知道很多人，包括我自己，可能都好奇地想要进行自己的探索。
I've never done this before on the podcast, but I'm very curious to know if you had one or two, maybe three books that you think would be very informative for people-
我以前从未在播客上这样做过，但我很想知道您是否有一两本，也许三本您认为对人们来说非常有用的书 -
Dr. Christof Koch: Marcus Aurelius's "Confessions."
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：马库斯·奥勒留的《忏悔录》。
Andrew Huberman: Marcus Aurelius's "Confessions."
安德鲁·休伯曼：马库斯·奥勒留的《忏悔录》。
Dr. Christof Koch: Two thousand years ago, it was written probably for himself, not for posterity, the emperor, you know, a second-century emperor.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：两千多年前，这本书可能是为他自己写的，而不是为后人写的，皇帝，你知道，一个二世纪的皇帝。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Dr. Christof Koch: One of the particular...
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：特别的之一......
In times of crisis.
在危机时刻。
You know, it teaches you about mindfulness in this Roman context, and about being, you know...
你知道，它教你在罗马背景下的正念，以及关于存在，你知道......
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Dr. Christof Koch: But the only thing you can control is how you respond to events.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：但是你唯一可以控制的是你如何应对事件。
Again, sort of, I can control my emotional response to it.
再说一遍，我可以控制自己的情绪反应。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Dr. Christof Koch: Really wonderful book that I've given to my kids, and I give them to friends and to other people.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：这是一本非常棒的书，我送给了我的孩子们，我也把它们送给了朋友和其他人。
"Confessions of Marcus Aurelius."
《马库斯·奥勒留的自白》。
Andrew Huberman: Great.
安德鲁·休伯曼： 太好了。
And we'll direct people to the many books you've written.
我们将引导人们阅读您撰写的许多书籍。
I haven't read the most recent one about mystical experiences, but I absolutely will.
我还没有读过最近一篇关于神秘经历的文章，但我绝对会读的。
Of course, I've read your other books.
当然，我也读过你的其他书。
This is not the Lex Fridman podcast.
这不是莱克斯·弗里德曼的播客。
Lex is a good buddy of mine.
莱克斯是我的好朋友。
But in a kind of Lex Fridman-ish context, I am very curious about how somebody who thinks about consciousness, who is a neuroscientist, who thinks about these related fields, and of course has his own life experience, including psychedelics, thinks about the so-called meaning of life.
但在莱克斯·弗里德曼式的背景下，我很好奇一个思考意识的人，一个思考这些相关领域的神经科学家，当然还有自己的生活经历，包括迷幻剂，如何思考所谓的生命意义。
I can think of two extremes, to just kind of frame this up.
我可以想到两个极端，只是为了概括这一点。
One extreme that some people will embrace is, look, you know, we're here to just collect experiences and make sense of them and try and do our best not to harm anyone along the way and do some good and build some things.
有些人会接受的一个极端是，看，你知道，我们来这里只是为了收集经验并理解它们，并尽力不伤害任何人，并做一些好事并建立一些东西。
Andrew Huberman: The other might be something more aspirational about knowledge and things that are pervasive through time.
安德鲁·休伯曼：另一个可能是关于知识和随时间推移而普遍存在的事物的更令人渴望的东西。
I'm wondering how, for you, you think about your own purpose in being here and what you're doing and what you plan to do next, because clearly you're not slowing at all.
我想知道，对于你来说，你如何思考你自己来这里的目的、你正在做什么以及你下一步打算做什么，因为显然你根本没有放慢速度。
It's remarkable.
这很了不起。
Your vigor has doubled since the last time I saw you.
自从我上次见到你以来，你的活力增加了一倍。
Maybe it's the yellow hoodie.
也许是黄色连帽衫。
Those who are just listening, not watching, Christof has never shied away from making a statement.
对于那些只是听而不是看的人来说，克里斯托夫从不回避发表声明。
Dr. Christof Koch: Bright, bold colors.
Christof Koch 博士：明亮、大胆的色彩。
Andrew Huberman: Bright colors.
安德鲁·休伯曼：明亮的色彩。
He's a bright light.
他是一道明亮的光。
What's your philosophy on how to approach your own life?
您对待自己生活的理念是什么？
And then, if you're willing, maybe give a sliver of advice or suggestion to those who ponder their own meaning of life.
然后，如果你愿意，也许可以给那些思考自己生命意义的人一些忠告或建议。
I think most people do.
我想大多数人都是这样。
I certainly do.
我当然知道。
Dr. Christof Koch: I do, yeah.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：是的，我愿意。
We find ourselves in a universe that's strangely conducive to life and to conscious life.
我们发现自己身处一个奇怪地有利于生命和有意识生命的宇宙。
In fact, you could say we live in a universe that's conducive to consciousness, you know, some version of the entropic principle.
事实上，你可以说我们生活在一个有利于意识的宇宙中，你知道，熵原理的某种版本。
We don't know why.
我们不知道为什么。
We also live in a universe that I think is ultimately fundamentally phenomenal mental.
我们也生活在一个我认为从根本上来说是现象心理的宇宙中。
The mental evolves under its own laws that I don't have access to.
心智按照它自己的法则进化，而我无法接触到。
I'm part of it.
我是其中的一部分。
I will return to this mental.
我会回到这种精神状态。
That's as far as I've gotten.
据我所知。
I don't know, is there some sort of, you know, do you know what's a Christian thinker?
我不知道，是否有某种，你知道，你知道什么是基督教思想家吗？
Teilhard de Chardin.
德日进 (Teilhard de Chardin)。
You know, so he was a Jesuit and a paleontologist, and he had this point omega, this hypothesis of point omega.
你知道，所以他是一名耶稣会士和古生物学家，他有欧米茄点，欧米茄点假说。
The entire universe is evolving.
整个宇宙都在演化。
Dr. Christof Koch: So he was the first to talk about this noosphere, which in turn, he talks about that over the next 100 years, there will spread this sort of conscious type of atmosphere that you can think of like the internet across the planet.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：所以他是第一个谈论这个智域的人，反过来，他也谈到在接下来的 100 年里，这种有意识的氛围将会在全球范围内传播，你可以把它想象成互联网。
And we're all striving, all of creation's striving towards a point of maximal consciousness, which he believes will be in the fullness of time, emerging with God.
我们都在努力，所有的创造物都在努力达到最大意识点，他相信这将在时间成熟时与上帝一起出现。
I'm not sure about that.
我对此不太确定。
All I know is that ultimately what truly exists is this mental, and we are part of that, and we will be going back to that.
我所知道的是，最终真正存在的是这种心理，我们是其中的一部分，我们将回到那个心理。
But I don't claim to understand the inherent laws of this mental.
但我并不声称了解这种心理的内在规律。
But I ponder, like you, I question, I'm curious, and I know I will not find any final answers, and that's okay.
但我思考，像你一样，我提问，我很好奇，我知道我不会找到任何最终答案，但这没关系。
You should just strive.
你应该努力。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Dr. Christof Koch: Never stop striving to try to understand the world and leave the world a better place than you found it.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：永远不要停止努力理解世界，让世界变得比你发现的更美好。
Andrew Huberman: I love it.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我喜欢它。
Well, thank you for that, and thank you for coming here today and sitting down with me.
好吧，谢谢你，也谢谢你今天来到这里和我坐在一起。
It's such a pleasure.
真是太高兴了。
Dr. Christof Koch: That was great fun.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：那很有趣。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, it was great fun to talk to a fellow neuroscientist and one who is as accomplished but also as generous with knowledge as you are.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，与一位神经科学家同事交谈非常有趣，他和你一样有成就，但知识也同样慷慨。
You know, your career...
你知道，你的职业...
And I'll send people to a link about this.
我将向人们发送有关此内容的链接。
It's really a spectacular example of being curiosity-driven and in many cases, very, very brave.
这确实是好奇心驱动的一个惊人例子，而且在很多情况下，非常非常勇敢。
I mean, I could have given an entire podcast about how brave it was to start talking about consciousness, then to move into building things at the Allen Brain Institute, and on and on.
我的意思是，我可以做一个完整的播客来讲述开始谈论意识是多么勇敢，然后进入艾伦大脑研究所的建设，等等。
I knew before we sat down that we were going to have a great conversation because of what you bring.
在我们坐下来之前我就知道我们将会因为你带来的东西而进行一次愉快的交谈。
But I know I share in everybody's thoughts that you've given us a ton of wisdom.
但我知道我和大家一样认为你给了我们很多智慧。
You know, some people when they speak, very little happens, but a lot of words are shared.
你知道，有些人说话的时候，发生的事情很少，但是却分享了很多话。
Andrew Huberman: When you speak, everything really counts and transforms my way of thinking, and I know that the listeners as well.
安德鲁·休伯曼：当你说话时，一切都非常重要并改变了我的思维方式，我知道听众也是如此。
They're going to think really deeply.
他们会进行非常深入的思考。
And hopefully, we can eradicate some of the cynicism and promote more curiosity and expand our perception boxes, because I think mental health depends on it in many ways.
希望我们能够消除一些愤世嫉俗，促进更多的好奇心并扩大我们的认知范围，因为我认为心理健康在很多方面取决于它。
Dr. Christof Koch: Yes.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：是的。
Dr. Christof Koch: And the future of our society.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：以及我们社会的未来。
Andrew Huberman: And the future of our society.
安德鲁·休伯曼：以及我们社会的未来。
And I really appreciate your willingness to throw yourself into these arenas.
我真的很感谢您愿意投入这些领域。
Please come back again and...
请你再回来，然后...
Dr. Christof Koch: Thank you for having me.
克里斯托夫·科赫博士：谢谢您邀请我。
Andrew Huberman: Thank you.
安德鲁·休伯曼：谢谢。
It's been a pleasure.
很高兴。
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Christof Koch.
感谢您参加今天与克里斯托夫·科赫博士的讨论。
To learn more about his work and to find links to his many excellent books, please see the show note captions.
要了解有关他的作品的更多信息并找到他的许多优秀书籍的链接，请参阅节目注释标题。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的关注按钮来关注播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review, and you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您可以给我们留下五星级的评论，现在您可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast, or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comment section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问或对播客有意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑嘉宾或主题，请将这些内容放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
Andrew Huberman: For those of you who haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
安德鲁·休伯曼：对于那些还没有听说过的人，我有一本新书即将出版。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience, and it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这是我花了五年多时间编写的一本书，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验，涵盖了从睡眠、锻炼到压力控制、与注意力和动机相关的各个方面的方案。
And of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
当然，我还为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by pre-sale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There, you can find links to various vendors.
在那里，您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." And if you're not already following me on social media, I am "hubermanlab" on all social media platforms.
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我在所有社交媒体平台上都是“hubermanlab”。
So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
Andrew Huberman: And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlap with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast.
Andrew Huberman：在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与 Huberman 实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与 Huberman 实验室播客上的信息不同。
Again, it's @hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
再说一遍，所有社交媒体平台上都是@hubermanlab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our "Neural Network Newsletter," the "Neural Network Newsletter" is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, and deliberate cold exposure.
如果您还没有订阅我们的“神经网络通讯”，“神经网络通讯”是一份零成本的每月通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺和故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available completely zero cost.
所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to newsletter, and enter your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的菜单选项卡，向下滚动到时事通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件即可。
And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Andrew Huberman: Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Christof Koch.
Andrew Huberman：再次感谢您参加今天与 Christof Koch 博士的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。