Esther Perel: How to Find, Build & Maintain Healthy Romantic Relationships

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

My guest today is Esther Perel.

今天我的客人是埃丝特·佩雷尔。

Esther Perel is a psychotherapist and one of the world's foremost experts on romantic relationships.

埃丝特·佩雷尔（Esther Perel）是一位心理治疗师，也是世界上最重要的浪漫关系专家之一。

She's also the author of best-selling books such as "Mating in Captivity" and "The State of Affairs." Today's discussion focuses on what it means to be in a truly functional romantic relationship.

她还是《圈养交配》和《事态》等畅销书的作者。今天的讨论重点是建立真正功能性的浪漫关系意味着什么。

We discuss this from the standpoint of identity.

我们从身份的角度来讨论这个问题。

That is, how people both try to hold onto and evolve their identities within a relationship, and how a truly functional romantic relationship indeed evolves over time from a standpoint of curiosity and adventure, but also one in which people need to hold on to certain components of themselves.

也就是说，人们如何在一段关系中试图保持和发展自己的身份，以及一种真正功能性的浪漫关系如何从好奇和冒险的角度随着时间的推移而不断发展，但同时人们也需要保持自己的某些组成部分。

We explore what conflict in relationships looks like and the dynamics that underlie those conflicts, so focusing less on specific scenarios, but rather the dynamics that exist in conflicts in romantic relationship across all different situations and different combinations of people.

我们探索关系中的冲突是什么样的，以及这些冲突背后的动态，因此较少关注特定场景，而是关注所有不同情况和不同人群组合中浪漫关系冲突中存在的动态。

And of course, we also talk about what healthy conflict resolution looks like, what a truly effective apology looks and sounds like, and we explore the erotic aspects of relationships, comparing and contrasting, for instance, love and desire, how sometimes those things run in parallel in the same direction, how sometimes those run in opposite directions, and how people can explore their own notions, their own models of love and desire in order to have more effective romantic relationships.

当然，我们也讨论健康的冲突解决方式是什么样子，真正有效的道歉看起来和听起来是什么样子，我们探索关系的色情方面，比较和对比，例如，爱和欲望，有时这些东西如何在同一个方向上平行运行，有时这些东西如何在相反的方向上运行，以及人们如何探索自己的观念，自己的爱和欲望模式，以便拥有更有效的浪漫关系。

By the end of today's episode, you will learn from the world's foremost expert on romantic relationships how to find, build, and revive romantic relationships that feel most satisfying to all partners involved.

在今天的节目结束时，您将向世界上最重要的浪漫关系专家学习如何寻找、建立和恢复让所有相关伴侣感到最满意的浪漫关系。

I'm also pleased to announce that Esther Perel has just released a new course on intimacy.

我还很高兴地宣布埃丝特·佩雷尔刚刚发布了有关亲密关系的新课程。

You can find a link to that course in the show note captions, as well as links to her books, her podcast, and other resources about romantic relationships.

您可以在节目笔记标题中找到该课程的链接，以及她的书籍、播客和其他有关浪漫关系的资源的链接。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。

Our first sponsor is David.

我们的第一位赞助商是大卫。

David makes a protein bar unlike any other.

大卫制作的蛋白质棒与众不同。

It has 28 grams of protein, only 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar.

它含有 28 克蛋白质，仅 150 卡路里，零克糖。

That's right, 28 grams of protein and 75% of its calories come from protein.

没错，28克蛋白质，其75%的热量都来自于蛋白质。

This is 50% higher than the next closest protein bar.

这比第二接近的蛋白质棒高出 50%。

These bars from David also taste incredible.

大卫的这些巧克力棒味道也令人难以置信。

My favorite bar is the cake flavored one, but then again, I also like the chocolate flavored one and I like the berry flavored one.

我最喜欢的巧克力棒是蛋糕味的，但话又说回来，我也喜欢巧克力味的，而且我喜欢浆果味的。

Basically, I like all the flavors.

基本上所有的口味我都喜欢。

They're all incredibly delicious.

它们都非常美味。

Now, for me personally, I try to get most of my calories from whole foods.

现在，就我个人而言，我尝试从天然食品中获取大部分卡路里。

However, when I'm in a rush or I'm away from home, or I'm just looking for a quick afternoon snack, I often find that I'm looking for a high-quality protein source.

然而，当我很赶时间或者我不在家，或者我只是想吃点下午茶时，我经常发现我正在寻找高质量的蛋白质来源。

And with David, I'm able to get 28 grams of high-quality protein with the calories of a snack, which makes it very easy to hit my protein goals of one gram of protein per pound of body weight, and it allows me to do so without taking on an excess of calories.

有了 David，我就能用一份零食的热量获得 28 克优质蛋白质，这使得我很容易达到每磅体重 1 克蛋白质的蛋白质目标，而且我可以在不摄入过多热量的情况下实现这一目标。

Again, I focus on getting most of my food from whole food sources throughout the day.

同样，我全天专注于从天然食物来源获取大部分食物。

But I typically eat a David bar in the late afternoon when I get hungry between lunch and dinner, sometimes also mid-morning if I get hungry then, and sometimes I'll use it as a meal replacement, although not a complete meal replacement, it can get me to the next meal.

但我通常会在下午晚些时候吃大卫棒，当我在午餐和晚餐之间感到饥饿时，有时如果我饿了，也会在上午中旬吃大卫棒，有时我会用它作为代餐，虽然不是完全的代餐，但它可以让我到下一顿饭。

So if I need to eat in a couple of hours, but I'm really hungry, I'll eat a David bar.

因此，如果我需要在几个小时内吃东西，但我真的很饿，我会吃一块大卫棒。

As I mentioned before, they are incredibly delicious.

正如我之前提到的，它们非常美味。

In fact, they're surprisingly delicious.

事实上，它们出奇的美味。

Even the consistency is great.

即使一致性也很棒。

It's more like a cookie consistency, kind of a chewy cookie consistency, which is unlike other bars, which I tend to kind of saturate on.

它更像是饼干的稠度，有点耐嚼的饼干稠度，这与我倾向于饱和的其他巧克力棒不同。

I was never a big fan of bars until I discovered David bars.

在我发现大卫酒吧之前，我从来都不是酒吧的忠实粉丝。

If you give them a try, you'll know what I mean.

如果你尝试一下，你就会明白我的意思。

So if you'd like to try David, you can go to davidprotein.com/huberman.

因此，如果您想尝试 David，可以访问 david Protein.com/huberman。

Again, the link is davidprotein.com/huberman.

同样，链接是 david Protein.com/huberman。

Today's episode is also brought to us by LMNT.

今天的节目也是LMNT给我们带来的。

LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.

LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。

That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, but no sugar.

这意味着电解质、钠、镁和钾，但没有糖。

Proper hydration is critical for optimal brain and bodily function.

适当的水分对于最佳的大脑和身体功能至关重要。

In fact, even a slight degree of dehydration is known to diminish cognitive and physical performance.

事实上，即使是轻微程度的脱水也会降低认知和身体表现。

It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes in order to stay hydrated.

获得足够的电解质以保持水分也很重要。

The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium are vital for the functioning of all cells in your body, especially your neurons or nerve cells.

电解质、钠、镁和钾对于体内所有细胞（尤其是神经元或神经细胞）的功能至关重要。

Drinking LMNT dissolved in water makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate amounts of hydration and electrolytes.

饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT 可以很容易地确保您获得足够的水合作用和电解质。

So to make sure that I'm getting proper amounts of both, I dissolve one packet of LMNT in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I first wake up in the morning.

因此，为了确保我摄入适量的两者，当我早上第一次醒来时，我将一包 LMNT 溶解在大约 16 至 32 盎司的水中。

I drink that basically over the first half hour or so that I'm awake, and I'll tend to also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and I'm losing water and electrolytes.

我基本上在前半个小时左右就喝了，这样我就醒了，而且在进行任何形式的体育锻炼时，我也会倾向于喝溶解在水中的LMNT，尤其是在炎热的日子里，当我出汗很多并且失去水和电解质时。

If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman.

如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman。

Again, that's drinklmnt, spelled L-M-N-T .com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with the purchase of any LMNT drink mix.

再次强调，这是 Drinklmnt，拼写为 L-M-N-T .com/huberman，购买任何 LMNT 混合饮料即可获得免费 LMNT 样品包。

Again, drinklmnt.com/huberman.

再次，drinklmnt.com/huberman。

Today's episode is also brought to us by Helix Sleep.

今天的节目也是由 Helix Sleep 为我们带来的。

Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep needs.

Helix Sleep 生产根据您独特的睡眠需求定制的床垫和枕头。

I've spoken many times before on this and other podcasts about the fact that getting a great night's sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance.

我之前曾多次在这个播客和其他播客中谈到这样一个事实：睡个好觉是心理健康、身体健康和表现的基础。

Now, the mattress we sleep on makes an enormous difference in terms of the quality of sleep that we get each night.

现在，我们睡觉的床垫对我们每晚的睡眠质量有着巨大的影响。

We need a mattress that is matched to our unique sleep needs, one that is neither too soft nor too hard for you, one that breathes well and that won't be too warm or too cold for you.

我们需要一款符合我们独特睡眠需求的床垫，一张对您来说既不太软也不太硬、透气良好、不会太热或太冷的床垫。

If you go to the Helix website, you can take a brief two-minute quiz, and it asks you questions such as, do you sleep on your back, your side, or your stomach?

如果你访问 Helix 网站，你可以做一个两分钟的简短测验，它会问你一些问题，比如你是仰卧、侧卧还是俯卧？

Do you tend to run hot or cold during the night?

你晚上容易感到热还是冷？

Things of that sort.

诸如此类的事情。

Maybe you know the answers to those questions, maybe you don't.

也许您知道这些问题的答案，也许您不知道。

Either way, Helix will match you to the ideal mattress for you.

无论哪种方式，Helix 都会为您匹配理想的床垫。

For me, that turned out to be the Dusk mattress, D-U-S-K.

对我来说，这就是 Dusk 床垫，D-U-S-K。

I've been sleeping on a Dusk mattress for, gosh, now more than four years, and the sleep that I've been getting is absolutely phenomenal.

我一直睡在 Dusk 床垫上，天哪，现在已经四年多了，而且我睡得绝对是惊人的。

If you'd like to try Helix, you can go to helixsleep.com/huberman, take that brief two-minute sleep quiz, and Helix will match you to a mattress that is customized to your unique sleep needs.

如果您想尝试 Helix，可以访问 helixsleep.com/huberman，进行两分钟的简短睡眠测验，Helix 将为您匹配根据您独特的睡眠需求定制的床垫。

Right now, Helix is giving up to 25% off mattresses and two free pillows.

目前，Helix 提供高达 25% 的床垫折扣和两个免费枕头。

Again, that's helixsleep.com/huberman to get 25% off and two free pillows.

再次强调，helixsleep.com/huberman 提供 25% 折扣和两个免费枕头。

And now for my discussion with Esther Perel.

现在我与埃丝特·佩雷尔进行讨论。

Esther Perel, welcome.

埃丝特·佩雷尔，欢迎。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Thank you.

谢谢你。

It's a pleasure to be here.

很高兴来到这里。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There are so many questions and curiosities and puzzles and challenges around the topic of romantic relationships.

围绕浪漫关系这个话题有很多问题、好奇心、困惑和挑战。

But what I really want to know is, to what extent is the decision to even think about being in a relationship of the romantic type, an extension of our identity, or is it really a willingness to potentially embrace a new identity?

但我真正想知道的是，考虑建立浪漫型关系的决定在多大程度上是我们身份的延伸，还是真的愿意接受新的身份？

And I ask this somewhat abstract question for a very specific reason, and the reason is the following.

我问这个有点抽象的问题是有一个非常具体的原因，原因如下。

I think everyone who's been in a romantic relationship, or even who just wants one, is familiar with the kind of yearning or interest or curiosity, and then also with the fact that, just like the development of our physical body, it has an arc across the lifespan, that a relationship has a sort of developmental arc.

我认为每个经历过恋爱关系的人，甚至只是想要一段恋爱关系的人，都熟悉那种渴望、兴趣或好奇，而且也熟悉这样一个事实，就像我们身体的发育一样，它在整个生命周期中都有一个弧线，一段关系也有一种发展弧线。

There's the first meeting, the first week, the first month, et cetera.

有第一次会议、第一周、第一个月等等。

And so much of what I've seen in your work and in the discussion about relationships in the public sphere seems to be trying to understand how we change in terms of what we want and what we ask for, what we feel willing to ask for, et cetera, across this arc of the relationship.

我在你的工作和关于公共领域关系的讨论中看到的很多内容似乎都在试图理解我们如何在我们想要什么、我们要求什么、我们愿意要求什么等等方面改变，跨越这条关系弧。

But what I want to know is, is the decision to enter a romantic relationship a willingness, conscious or unconscious, to actually change who we are?

但我想知道的是，进入恋爱关系的决定是否是有意识或无意识地愿意真正改变我们是谁？

In other words, are we entering a relationship to just be ourselves and find someone-

换句话说，我们进入一段关系是为了做我们自己并找到某人——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

I got it

我明白了

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

with whom we go lock and key?

我们和谁一起上锁？

Or are we really saying, "Hey," even whether or not we realize it or not, if we're pursuing a relationship, are we really basically saying, "I'm willing to become a different person by virtue of being in a relationship?"

或者我们是否真的在说，“嘿”，无论我们是否意识到，如果我们在追求一段关系，我们实际上基本上是在说，“我愿意因为一段关系而成为一个不同的人吗？”

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

I think it is both.

我认为两者都是。

Completely both.

完全是两者兼而有之。

We meet an other in order to find ourselves, and we meet an other and want to be surprised by the self we haven't known.

我们遇见另一个人是为了找到自己，我们遇见另一个人是为了让我们不认识的自己感到惊讶。

I think that all of us come into this world with a fundamental set of dual needs.

我认为我们所有人来到这个世界上时都带着一套基本的双重需求。

We need security, and we need freedom and adventure.

我们需要安全，我们需要自由和冒险。

And we need togetherness, and we need separateness.

我们需要团结，也需要分离。

So in the relationship, you come in order to create that identification, but also that differentiation.

因此，在这段关系中，你的到来是为了创造这种认同，但也是为了创造这种差异化。

It's a dialectic all the time.

这始终是一个辩证法。

But what's interesting is, even if I choose you because you represent sometimes the parts of me that are more challenging or that I disavow or that I prefer to outsource, so I don't have to be too vulnerable about them, what draws me to you in the beginning, because it is different, that I think may expand me and make me change, is also the very thing that becomes the source of conflict later, because we want to change, but up to a point.

但有趣的是，即使我选择你，因为你有时代表了我身上更具挑战性的部分，或者我否认的部分，或者我更喜欢外包的部分，所以我不必对它们太脆弱，一开始吸引我到你身边的是什么，因为它是不同的，我认为这可能会扩展我并让我改变，这也是后来成为冲突的根源，因为我们想要改变，但在某种程度上。

Not too much, and not on your terms.

不能太多，也不符合你的条件。

So we want change, but we sometimes are afraid of change, and so we let the other person represent the part of us that would want to change, but then we disconnect from it.

所以我们想要改变，但有时我们害怕改变，所以我们让另一个人代表我们想要改变的部分，但随后我们就与它脱节。

So you become the representative of that.

所以你就成为了这方面的代表。

I am drawn to the fact that you are stable, grounded, structured, solid, reliable, on time, you name it.

我被你稳定、踏实、有条理、踏实、可靠、准时等事实所吸引。

I know that this is something that I would like to be more of, and just a very simple example, but then I start to think of you as rigid because I get a little more than what I bargained for.

我知道这是我想要更多的东西，只是一个非常简单的例子，但后来我开始认为你很僵化，因为我得到的比我讨价还价的多一点。

And now I start to argue with your rigidity, and my desire to actually become more structured and solid and punctual and reliable has somehow disappeared.

现在我开始与你的僵化争论，而我实际上变得更加结构化、扎实、准时和可靠的愿望已经不知何故消失了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So if I understand correctly, we seek out others in order to try and initiate the process of change that we want.

因此，如果我理解正确的话，我们会寻找其他人来尝试启动我们想要的改变过程。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But then when we hit the friction point, meaning the point-

但当我们遇到摩擦点时，也就是说——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

That's right

没错

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

where it challenges where we are-

它挑战我们所处的位置-

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

That's right

没错

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

then there's a form of resent or frustration.

然后就会出现某种形式的怨恨或沮丧。

The reason I-

原因是我——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Defensiveness.

防御性。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Defensiveness.

防御性。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Yes.

是的。

You know what it is?

你知道那是什么吗？

Every system straddles stability and change, and then grapples for homeostasis.

每个系统都跨越稳定性和变化，然后努力实现稳态。

Every relationship goes through that, every system in nature goes through that.

每一种关系都会经历这样的过程，自然界中的每一个系统都会经历这样的过程。

But the same thing is true inside an individual.

但在个人内部也是如此。

We want change, and we need stability.

我们需要改变，我们需要稳定。

And then these things sometimes are compensating each other, and they are complementary, and at times they butt heads.

然后这些东西有时是相互补偿的，它们是互补的，有时又是相反的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So a very practical question-

那么一个非常实际的问题——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

then.

那么。

What are the necessary but not sufficient elements that somebody should have in themselves before they go seeking a romantic relationship?

在寻求浪漫关系之前，一个人应该具备哪些必要但不充分的要素？

Meaning, what is necessary in order to be able to embark on the process with any chance of success, barring extreme pathology, right?

意思是，为了能够以任何成功的机会开始这个过程，除非出现极端的病态，需要什么，对吧？

Assuming that both people entering the relationship have the best of intentions to make the relationship work, in quotes.

假设进入关系的双方都有让关系发挥作用的最佳意图（用引号引起来）。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is it both a sense of one's own identity as well as what specifically they would like to change, or is it some other constellation of factors?

这既是对自己身份的认识，也是他们具体想要改变的事情，还是其他一些因素？

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Different ways to answer this.

不同的方式来回答这个问题。

I think sometimes people say, "I want to be with you because you help me become the best version of myself."

我想有时人们会说，“我想和你在一起，因为你帮助我成为最好的自己。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, you hear that a lot.

是的，你经常听到这样的说法。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

And so what is that version?

那么那个版本是什么？

Who is it that I want to see that I think you will help me become?

我想看到你会帮助我成为谁？

When you talk about these romantic relationships, first of all, I think there's a different answer if we're talking about cornerstone relationships or capstone relationships.

当你谈论这些浪漫关系时，首先，我认为如果我们谈论基石关系或顶点关系，会有不同的答案。

Do you know the concept?

你知道这个概念吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

If you don't mind defining those for the audience-

如果你不介意为观众定义这些-

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Right.

对。

So the cornerstone-

所以基石是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

then great.

那太好了。

Yeah

是啊

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

...

...

relationship is when we used to meet in our early 20s and together we build The foundation of our relationship, we grew together, we saved our first monies together, we got our first places together, et cetera.

关系是我们在20岁出头时相遇的时候，我们一起建立了我们关系的基础，我们一起成长，我们一起存下了我们的第一笔钱，我们一起获得了我们的第一个位置，等等。

It was very much foundational.

这是非常基础的。

Capstone is the foundation has already been established because we tend to meet at this point 10, 12 years later.

顶点是已经建立的基础，因为我们往往会在 10、12 年后的这个时候见面。

So during those 12 years, I've already actually worked, so to speak, on my identity.

所以，在这12年里，可以说，我实际上已经在为我的身份而努力了。

I have defined myself, my values, my aspirations, my constructs, how I want to see my life.

我已经定义了我自己，我的价值观，我的愿望，我的结构，我想要如何看待我的生活。

And when I meet you, you're a confirmation for all of this.

当我遇见你时，你就证实了这一切。

You're a confirmation of what I've already built, and I am putting you and me as the capstone, which we put on top of what we've already created.

你是对我已经建立的东西的确认，我把你和我作为顶石，我们把它放在我们已经创建的东西之上。

You and me, you've done the same thing.

你和我，都做过同样的事。

So I am looking for someone who recognizes my identity, not for someone who helps me develop my identity from a much earlier age.

因此，我正在寻找一个认可我身份的人，而不是寻找一个从小就帮助我发展自己身份的人。

So there's a developmental arc that changes the mandate.

因此，存在一个改变任务的发展弧线。

I said it's both, but the priority of if it's the building of identity or the expansion of that identity, what you call change, differs if you meet somebody when you're young and if you meet somebody when you're in your 30s.

我说两者兼而有之，但是如果你在年轻时遇到某人，或者在你30多岁时遇到某人，那么你所谓的改变，无论是建立身份还是扩展身份，其优先顺序是不同的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What happens when people are mismatched in terms of age?

当人们年龄不匹配时会发生什么？

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

There is big age differences a lot of the time, and in gay relationships, you have often a major, age difference that means something else, but it creates differentiation.

很多时候存在很大的年龄差异，在同性恋关系中，通常存在重大的年龄差异，这意味着其他事情，但它创造了差异。

In straight relationships, you often have men who are a lot older than the women, very much rooted in evolutionary biology, I think, and fertility.

在异性恋中，男性通常比女性年长很多，我认为，这在很大程度上源于进化生物学和生育能力。

But, and now we have more and more a new phenomenon of older women with younger men, but that's actually been very rare in most cultures.

但是，现在我们越来越多地出现老年女性与年轻男性的新现象，但这实际上在大多数文化中都非常罕见。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So that's shifting now towards, more often people are observing older women with younger men?

那么现在这种情况正在转变，人们更频繁地观察年长女性与年轻男性的关系？

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

When you have four movies at this moment that are talking about this, then you begin to see the crescent of a new cultural phenomenon.

当你现在有四部电影谈论这个时，你就会开始看到一种新文化现象的新月。

I think the fact that it appears in the arts and in the culture usually announces something.

我认为它出现在艺术和文化中的事实通常预示着一些事情。

I wouldn't make it yet a phenomenon.

我还不会让它成为一种现象。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

But you asked me a question before about what are the things people need.

但你之前问过我一个问题，关于人们需要什么东西。

When you embark any relationship, again, I tend to think as both and on a lot of things.

当你开始一段关系时，我倾向于同时考虑很多事情。

I come to you with a certain self-awareness.

我带着一定的自我意识来找你。

How much self-awareness?

自我意识有多少？

The more there is, the better.

越多越好。

And that self-awareness, I think as it's best translates in a sense of, I think a good vow to say at the time of your wedding is, "I'll fuck up on a regular basis, and on occasion, I'll acknowledge it." It means that self-awareness comes with self-knowledge about your limitations, and your ability to take responsibility for it without blame and shame, and basically accountability.

我认为这种自我意识最好的翻译是，我认为在婚礼时说的一个很好的誓言是：“我会经常搞砸，有时，我会承认这一点。”这意味着自我意识来自于对自己局限性的自我了解，以及你在不责备和羞耻的情况下承担责任的能力，以及基本的责任感。

I think accountability is an enormous component of relationship.

我认为责任是关系的重要组成部分。

It's okay.

没关系。

We all do things.

我们都做事。

We all have our wounds, and our frustrations, and our expectations, and our unexpressed needs, and our unfulfilled longings, et cetera.

我们都有自己的伤口、挫折、期望、未表达的需求、未实现的渴望等等。

But it's a good thing to know it and to admit it, and to not pretend that it's not me, but it's you.

但了解这一点并承认这一点是件好事，不要假装那不是我，而是你。

I often say that couples therapy, I am a practicing couples therapist for almost 40 years, and couples often come to therapy thinking that you're a drop-off center.

我经常说夫妻治疗，我是一名执业夫妻治疗师近 40 年，夫妻经常来接受治疗，认为你是一个下车中心。

They come to deliver their problem, and their problem is their partner, and you're going to fix it.

他们来解决他们的问题，他们的问题是他们的合作伙伴，你要解决它。

And they're going to help you because they're an expert on what's wrong with the partner.

他们会帮助你，因为他们是了解伴侣问题的专家。

And it's an amazing thing how people have tremendous insight on all the shortcomings of the other person and do not see themselves as part of a system.

令人惊奇的是，人们对他人的所有缺点有着深刻的洞察力，而不将自己视为系统的一部分。

A relationship is a breathing, living system of interdependent parts.

关系是一个由相互依存的部分组成的会呼吸的生命系统。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Do you think that's perhaps one reason why people who are in these cornerstone relationships, of whom I've known many, even family members of mine, met in university, met their significant other, and then had their first jobs, moved in together, all the things you described, that there's this-

你认为这也许是为什么那些处于这些基石关系中的人，我认识很多人，甚至是我的家人，在大学里认识，遇到他们的另一半，然后找到第一份工作，搬到一起住的原因之一，所有你所描述的事情，就是这样——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

They grow up together.

他们一起长大。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, and I think it probably happens at a stage of life when there's still a lot more neuroplasticity, frankly.

是的，坦率地说，我认为这可能发生在神经可塑性仍然很高的人生阶段。

Everything I know about neuroplasticity is that it exists across the lifespan, but that it tapers off significantly in one's late 20s.

我对神经可塑性的了解是，它存在于人的一生中，但在 20 多岁的时候会显着减弱。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And fortunately, it's still available, but the notion of being set in our ways is a neuroplasticity phenomenon, right?

幸运的是，它仍然可用，但是按照我们的方式设置的概念是一种神经可塑性现象，对吗？

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Yes.

是的。

It's the closing of the prefrontal cortex.

这是前额皮质的关闭。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Pretty much.

差不多了。

Yeah.

是的。

Pretty much.

差不多了。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

The fontanel is still...

囟门还是...

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Exactly.

正是如此。

It takes a lot more to open that plasticity later than it does earlier, certainly.

当然，晚点打开这种可塑性要比早点花更多的时间。

And yet it's inversely related to this self-awareness, right?

然而它与这种自我意识成反比，对吧？

The younger we are, the less self-aware we are about our patterns because we just have less data over time.

我们越年轻，对自己模式的自我意识就越少，因为随着时间的推移，我们拥有的数据越来越少。

So I could see how it'd be more difficult for somebody in their 20s to say, "Hey, listen, I think I have a good many virtues, but I have this severe issue with something," or, "This particularly frustrates me," or, "Here's my laundry list of issues," right?

所以我可以想象，对于 20 多岁的人来说，说“嘿，听着，我认为我有很多优点，但我对某事有一个严重的问题”，或者“这让我特别沮丧”，或者“这是我的问题清单”会更困难，对吗？

Whereas somebody in their 40s or 50s, or older, if pressed, could probably make that list if they were really being honest with themselves.

而 40 多岁、50 多岁或更老的人，如果他们真的对自己诚实的话，如果有压力的话，可能会列出这个名单。

So it seems like the-

所以看起来就像是——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

I think that's a good point.

我认为这是一个很好的观点。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So it seems that maybe there's a sweet spot, but that these earlier relationships, I've always been impressed by them and kind of romanticized them in my mind, because that wasn't the trajectory that I took.

所以看起来也许有一个甜蜜点，但这些早期的关系，我一直对它们印象深刻，并在我的脑海中将它们浪漫化，因为那不是我所采取的轨迹。

But-

但是——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

But they have a challenge.

但他们面临着挑战。

You see, when you grow up together, you often put a lot of energy into the building of the unit.

你看，你们一起长大的时候，常常会为单位的建设投入大量的精力。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

And that unit then is supposed to become your base, your scaffolding, from which two individuals can begin to grow and to define themselves.

然后这个单位应该成为你的基础，你的脚手架，两个人可以从中开始成长并定义自己。

When you meet later, you are already two individuals that have defined themselves who now have to find a way to create the energy to come together.

当你们稍后见面时，你们已经是两个已经定义了自己的人，现在必须找到一种方法来创造走到一起的能量。

So it's a different movement.

所以这是一个不同的运动。

It's a different choreography.

这是一个不同的编舞。

I think that the challenge for young couples today who meet early in college and have known often only themselves and a few people in their teenage years, et cetera, or none, is what happens when they begin to change individually.

我认为，对于今天的年轻夫妇来说，他们面临的挑战是，他们在大学早期认识，在青少年时期往往只认识自己和少数人，等等，或者根本不认识，当他们开始个人改变时会发生什么。

Can the relationship expand enough to broaden the envelope to let these two people emerge individually, or is the jacket too tight?

两人的关系能否扩大到足够大的范围，让这两个人单独出现，还是夹克太紧了？

Is the vest too tight?

背心是不是太紧了？

And often, it becomes a bit of a crisis.

通常，它会变成一场危机。

Because they grew together on the basis of this togetherness.

因为他们就是在这种团结的基础上共同成长的。

And sometimes they can, and sometimes it just feels like, that in order to become adults, it may need to happen with a different partner.

有时他们可以，有时只是感觉，为了成为成年人，可能需要与不同的伴侣一起发生。

And that's why I always said, I think this moment, we have two or three relationships or marriages in our adult lives in the West.

这就是为什么我总是说，我认为此时此刻，我们在西方的成年生活中有两到三段关系或婚姻。

And some of us will do it with the same person, but the relationship has to change.

我们中的一些人会和同一个人这样做，但关系必须改变。

It's like the person changes the relationship, but the relationship makes room for the person to change.

就像是人改变了关系，但关系却为人提供了改变的空间。

This is dynamic.

这是动态的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That just feels like such a true statement to me because, in my professional life as a developmental neurobiologist, there's a saying, people always think of development and then adulthood, but all of life is one big developmental arc.

对我来说，这感觉像是一个真实的陈述，因为在我作为一名发育神经生物学家的职业生涯中，有句话说，人们总是想到发育，然后是成年，但整个生命都是一个大的发育弧线。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

That's absolutely correct.

这是绝对正确的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And the great psychologist Erikson spoke about the different sort of challenges that people face from birth all the way until death, which, nowadays, hopefully will extend into people's 80s, 90s, or even beyond.

伟大的心理学家埃里克森谈到了人们从出生到死亡所面临的各种挑战，如今，这些挑战有望延续到人们的80多岁、90多岁，甚至更久远。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Well, his last stage is the generative stage.

嗯，他的最后一个阶段是生成阶段。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

It's actually an amazing...

这实际上是一个奇妙的...

He's the most articulate theoretician of stages of life.

他是生命各个阶段最清晰的理论家。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I agree.

我同意。

If people haven't seen those stages, we'll put a link to them in the show note captions.

如果人们还没有看过这些舞台，我们会在演出说明文字中添加指向它们的链接。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Yeah.

是的。

So glad you mentioned him.

很高兴你提到他。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But the idea is that you're basically grappling with some basic struggle that you either reconcile or you don't at every stage.

但这个想法是，你基本上是在努力应对一些基本的斗争，在每个阶段你要么调和要么不调和。

So you could imagine that, let's say these three marriages, let's imagine a couple that meets in their 20s and does three marriages, which implies a couple divorces in between-

所以你可以想象一下，假设这三段婚姻，让我们想象一对在20多岁的时候相识并结了三段婚姻的夫妇，这意味着中间有一对夫妇离婚了——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

maybe not legal divorces, across their lifespan.

也许在他们的一生中都不是合法离婚。

They really are, according to the Erikson theory of development or any neurobiological examination of brain development, different people in their 20s versus 40s versus 60s, 70s, 80s.

根据埃里克森发育理论或任何大脑发育的神经生物学检查，他们在 20 多岁、40 多岁、60 多岁、70 多岁、80 多岁之间确实是不同的人。

So this notion of three different marriages, to me, seems both logical and very grounded in what we know about the biology of the brain and the self.

因此，对我来说，三种不同婚姻的概念似乎既合乎逻辑，又非常扎根于我们对大脑和自我生物学的了解。

So, and yet-

所以，然而——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

A good metaphor is rooted in science.

一个好的比喻植根于科学。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And yet it's also kind of a radical idea when one hears it for the first time.

然而，当人们第一次听到它时，这也是一个激进的想法。

Framed in the context of with the same person, it sounds kind of lovely and romantic.

放在同一个人的背景下，听起来有点可爱又浪漫。

Okay, they meet, it's lovely, they have their first marriage.

好吧，他们见面了，很可爱，他们有了第一次婚姻。

Then there's some challenge they overcome, they do a second marriage.

然后他们克服了一些挑战，开始了第二次婚姻。

Then some challenge, and a third marriage, and maybe there's even grandchildren you imagine, maybe even great-grandchildren.

然后是一些挑战，第三次婚姻，甚至可能还有你想象的孙子，甚至可能是曾孙。

There's all this kind of romantic notions built up around it.

围绕它建立了所有这种浪漫的观念。

But then there's also the reality that for many people, more than half, there's a fracture of the first marriage, and they either remain single or marry again.

但现实是，对于许多人来说，超过一半的人第一次婚姻破裂了，他们要么保持单身，要么再次结婚。

And so what do you think dictates whether or not a person can go through these series of evolutions and actually find and create love again and again and again, either with the same person or with someone new, or in some cases, I guess, three different partners?

那么，你认为是什么决定了一个人是否能够经历这一系列的演变，并一次又一次地真正找到并创造爱，无论是与同一个人还是与新的人，或者在某些情况下，我猜是与三个不同的伴侣？

What is the sort of requirement?

是什么样的要求？

Is it a willingness to accept this model and understand that who they are at 50 is going to be very different than who they were in their 20s?

是否愿意接受这种模式并了解自己在 50 岁时将与 20 岁时有很大不同？

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

A good question is a question that has many answers.

一个好问题是一个有很多答案的问题。

There's different ways to answer this.

有不同的方法可以回答这个问题。

I think that more than thinking about it as they were able to overcome crises, it's really the ability to redefine oneself and to redefine a relationship.

我认为，不仅仅是思考他们能够克服危机，这实际上是重新定义自己和重新定义关系的能力。

It's much more creative than problem-solving.

它比解决问题更具创造性。

You can overcome a crisis and put it aside and stay the same.

你可以克服危机并将其放在一边并保持不变。

This is much more of a generative experience.

这更像是一种生成性的体验。

It's a creative experience, is that you actually become a different unit.

这是一种创造性的体验，是你实际上变成了一个不同的单位。

The power dynamic is different.

权力动态是不同的。

The interdependence is different.

相互依存关系不同。

The erotic charge is different.

色情费用是不同的。

The connection to the outside world is different.

与外界的联系是不同的。

It's enlivening.

它很活跃。

I think everybody understands the difference between a relationship that is not dead and a relationship that is alive.

我想每个人都明白未死的关系和活着的关系之间的区别。

I am not there to help people survive.

我不是来帮助人们生存的。

My work is about more than that.

我的工作远不止于此。

It's about helping people to feel alive.

这是为了帮助人们感受到活着的感觉。

And the redefinition of having the same relationship with the same person, it has to be alive, not just not dead.

而与同一个人有同样关系的重新定义，它必须是活着的，而不仅仅是没有死。

And if sometimes that alive means recreating a new, going to a new person, a new country, a new city, a new social circle, a new profession, a new a lot of things that we today have access to change, things that people did once.

如果有时候，活着意味着重新创造一个新的，去一个新的人，一个新的国家，一个新的城市，一个新的社交圈，一个新的职业，一个新的很多我们今天可以改变的事情，人们曾经做过的事情。

When I ask an audience, "If your grandparents grew up in the same neighborhood or in the same town and worked in the same company," most people raise their hands.

当我问观众“如果你们的祖父母在同一个社区或同一个城镇长大并在同一家公司工作”时，大多数人都会举手。

And then I go down the generations, and then now it's like, "How many of you have had three jobs in the last five years?" So this notion that we can Create new things for ourselves is actually one of the greatest things that has happened in the realm of relationships.

然后我一代又一代地往下走，然后现在就像是，“过去五年里，你们中有多少人做过三份工作？”因此，我们可以为自己创造新事物的想法实际上是关系领域中发生的最伟大的事情之一。

We can have kids much later.

我们可以晚点生孩子。

We can join somebody who has already had those children.

我们可以加入那些已经有了这些孩子的人的行列。

We can marry in our 60s for the first time.

我们可以在 60 多岁的时候第一次结婚。

We can live in a threesome.

我们可以三人行住。

There's a plasticity, if you want to use a word, to the world of relationship today that is extremely rich and expansive, but demands a set of skills to negotiate, to understand the uncertainty that comes from having to make so many decisions.

如果你想用一个词来形容，当今的关系世界极其丰富和广阔，但需要一套谈判技巧，以理解必须做出如此多决定所带来的不确定性。

At the time, in the past, none of us made decisions about most of these things.

在过去，我们没有人对大多数事情做出决定。

They were handed down to us.

它们被传给了我们。

So that level of freedom is utterly rich but comes with a tremendous amount of anxiety and demands maturity.

因此，这种程度的自由是非常丰富的，但也伴随着巨大的焦虑，并且需要成熟。

And sometimes couples have become so entrenched and so locked in their story, and confusing their story with the truth, and feeling that they're living next to someone who has a completely different version of the story that they cannot talk to.

有时，夫妻们变得如此根深蒂固，如此锁定他们的故事，将他们的故事与事实混淆，并感觉他们生活在一个有着完全不同故事版本的人旁边，他们无法与之交谈。

There is no greater polarization sometimes than a couple that once agreed on a lot of things, that you just think, "There's no way change can enter this system."

有时，最严重的两极分化莫过于一对曾经在很多事情上达成一致的夫妇，你只是想，“改变不可能进入这个系统。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay, so when I hear your answer, what comes to mind is that, again, as a neurobiologist, I think the human brain has this amazing capacity to focus on past, present, or future.

好吧，当我听到你的回答时，我想到的是，作为一名神经生物学家，我再次认为人类大脑具有关注过去、现在或未来的惊人能力。

And sometimes two of those three things.

有时这三件事中的两件事。

It's kind of hard to think about all three at once.

同时考虑这三个问题有点困难。

But it sounds to me as if one of the more functional attributes that somebody can have if they want to navigate relationship in a healthy way is to be able to at least temporarily discard with one's story about one's past, and even their past identity.

但在我看来，如果一个人想要以健康的方式处理关系，那么他们可以拥有的更实用的属性之一就是能够至少暂时放弃一个人关于自己过去的故事，甚至他们过去的身份。

And the word that was coming up over and over again in my mind, as you answered, was this word you used earlier, which was curiosity.

当你回答时，我脑海中一遍又一遍地浮现的词就是你之前用过的词，那就是好奇心。

And I'm wondering if what you're referring to is a curiosity on the part of, hopefully, both people in the relationship as to what the relationship could become and who oneself could become.

我想知道你所指的是否是关系中的双方都对这段关系会变成什么样以及自己会成为谁的好奇心。

And my definition of curiosity is an interest in finding out, but without an emotional attachment to what the outcome is.

我对好奇心的定义是对发现的兴趣，但对结果没有情感依恋。

This is what we train scientists to do.

这就是我们训练科学家要做的事情。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You want to get the answers, but you can't get emotionally attached to the answer being A or B.

你想要得到答案，但你不能对答案 A 或 B 产生感情。

That's anti-curiosity.

这就是反好奇心。

Real, genuine curiosity is about the process, the verb action of wanting to figure out something, but not being attached to a particular outcome.

真正的、真正的好奇心是关于这个过程，是想要弄清楚某件事的动词动作，但不执着于特定的结果。

And as you were describing sort of functional trajectory of relationship, I was thinking, okay, so if one could approach relationship with a willingness to discard stories about one's past and maybe even a sense of one's identity of past, be willing to let go of that a little bit, and just be curious about where could this go if I let the relationship guide my evolution of identity a bit?

当你描述某种关系的功能轨迹时，我在想，好吧，所以如果一个人能够在处理关系时愿意放弃有关自己过去的故事，甚至可能放弃自己过去的身份感，愿意稍微放弃这一点，并且好奇如果我让这种关系稍微引导我的身份演变，这种关系会走向何方？

And that takes, as you said, some boldness, because it's kind of scary, right?

正如你所说，这需要一些勇气，因为这有点可怕，对吧？

Not knowing who one is going to become if they let the other person maybe lead for a while, or if they were to lead for a while.

不知道如果他们让另一个人领导一段时间，或者如果他们自己领导一段时间，一个人会成为谁。

Are these the sorts of dynamics that you're referring to?

这些是您所指的动态吗？

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

I think you almost articulated one of the most important pieces of my work.

我认为你几乎阐明了我作品中最重要的部分之一。

Curiosity is one of the top words for me, because it stands in opposition to reactivity.

对我来说，好奇心是最重要的词之一，因为它与反应相反。

Reactivity reinforces the cycle.

反应性加强了循环。

It just creates narrow repetition, rapid cycles of escalation.

它只会造成狭隘的重复和快速升级的循环。

It usually involves defense and attack, and blame, et cetera.

通常涉及防御、攻击、指责等。

Curiosity is an active engagement with the unknown.

好奇心是对未知事物的积极参与。

And I like when you say without the attachment to the outcome or the emotional investment.

我喜欢你说的“不执着于结果或情感投入”。

I think that's absolutely accurate.

我认为这是绝对正确的。

And much of what I do is try to have people switch from reactive to curious.

我所做的大部分工作就是试图让人们从被动转变为好奇。

But that curiosity means that they're willing to enter empathically and respectfully into the realm of another person whose narrative is completely different.

但这种好奇心意味着他们愿意以同理心和尊重的方式进入另一个叙述完全不同的人的领域。

I'm very invested and familiar with the neurosciences and the whole work on the brain in relationships, but I am very interested in narrative.

我非常投入并熟悉神经科学以及人际关系中大脑的整个工作，但我对叙事非常感兴趣。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Because I believe that the story shapes the experience.

因为我相信故事塑造了体验。

And when people hold on to the story and they don't think it's a story, they think it's fact.

当人们坚持这个故事并且他们不认为这是一个故事时，他们认为这是事实。

"This is what happened last night.

“这就是昨晚发生的事情。

I'll tell you what you did.

我会告诉你你做了什么。

I'll tell you what happened.

我会告诉你发生了什么事。

That's not the case." And they don't see this as a subjective rendering.

事实并非如此。”他们并不认为这是主观渲染。

It's totally valid, but it's valid as your experience.

这是完全有效的，但作为你的经验也是有效的。

And much of couples conversations is pseudo-factual talk, but it is actually subjective.

而且很多夫妻谈话都是伪事实谈话，但实际上是主观的。

Once you get that, you can become curious.

一旦你明白了这一点，你就会变得好奇。

Once you are curious, you open up.

一旦你好奇了，你就会敞开心扉。

But it is very challenging when people are hurt, wounded, defensive, holding tight, to invite that curiosity.

但当人们受伤、受伤、防御、紧紧抓住时，激发好奇心是非常具有挑战性的。

What's happening in their bodies is about shutdown and defense, and self-protection.

他们体内发生的事情是关于关闭、防御和自我保护。

And I'm doing this physically to you because this is where the brain and the neurobiology in that moment is going against what actually is in their best interest, psychologically and existentially

我在身体上对你这样做是因为这就是大脑和神经生物学在那个时刻与他们的最佳利益、心理和存在背道而驰的地方

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。

AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens.

AG1 是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮料，还包含益生元和适应原。

AG1 is designed to cover all of your foundational nutritional needs, and it tastes great.

AG1 旨在满足您所有的基本营养需求，而且味道极佳。

Now, I've been drinking AG1 since 2012, and I started doing that at a time when my budget for supplements was really limited.

现在，我从 2012 年开始饮用 AG1，当时我的补充剂预算非常有限。

In fact, I only had enough money back then to purchase one supplement, and I'm so glad that I made that supplement AG1.

事实上，当时我的钱只够购买一种补充剂，我很高兴我制作了这款补充剂 AG1。

The reason for that is even though I strive to eat most of my foods from whole foods and minimally processed foods, it's very difficult for me to get enough fruits, vegetables, vitamins and minerals, micronutrients, and adaptogens from food alone.

原因是，尽管我努力吃天然食品和最低限度加工食品中的大部分食物，但我很难仅从食物中获取足够的水果、蔬菜、维生素和矿物质、微量营养素和适应原。

And I need to do that in order to ensure that I have enough energy throughout the day, I sleep well at night, and keep my immune system strong.

我需要这样做，以确保我全天有足够的能量，晚上睡得好，并保持我的免疫系统强大。

But when I take AG1 daily, I find that all aspects of my health, my physical health, my mental health, and my performance, both cognitive and physical, are better.

但是当我每天服用 AG1 时，我发现我的健康各方面，我的身体健康，我的心理健康，以及我的认知和身体表现都更好了。

I know that because I've had lapses when I didn't take AG1, and I certainly felt the difference.

我知道这一点，因为我在不参加 AG1 的时候也曾犯过错误，而且我确实感受到了其中的不同。

I also notice, and this makes perfect sense given the relationship between the gut microbiome and the brain, that when I regularly take AG1, which for me means a serving in the morning or mid-morning and again later in the afternoon or evening, that I have more mental clarity and more mental energy.

我还注意到，考虑到肠道微生物组和大脑之间的关系，这是完全合理的，当我定期服用 AG1（对我来说意味着早上或上午服用一次，下午或晚上再次服用）时，我的思维更加清晰，精力更加充沛。

If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.

如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。

Right now, they're giving away five free travel packs and a year's supply of vitamin D3 K2.

目前，他们正在赠送五个免费旅行包和一年的维生素 D3 K2。

Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman to claim that special offer.

再次强调，您可以通过 Drinkag1.com/huberman 领取特别优惠。

I am a firm believer that when we are in a stress response, that we become locked in a time domain.

我坚信，当我们处于压力反应中时，我们就会被锁定在一个时间域中。

And not to spin off into a tangent about this, but-

并不是要岔开话题，但是——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Yes.

是的。

No, no, it's not a tangent

不，不，这不是切线

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

but put differently, when we are relaxed, we can think about time and our life and other things happening around us and others in a far more dynamic way.

但换句话来说，当我们放松时，我们可以以更加动态的方式思考时间、我们的生活以及我们和他人周围发生的其他事情。

The stress response is about solving for the feeling now.

压力反应是为了解决现在的感觉。

It has no sense about, or it doesn't allow us a window into the cognition or emotions that are related to what could be, even though we desperately want out of there.

它没有任何意义，或者它不允许我们了解与可能发生的事情相关的认知或情感，即使我们非常想离开那里。

And there's all sorts of evolutionary reasons why this would be the case.

出现这种情况有各种各样的进化原因。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Of course.

当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But, I feel like a statement that you made, which is that a curiosity and a willing to discard with one's own narratives, and in particular what you said about that people perceive their own experience as fact, when in actuality-

但是，我感觉就像你所做的一个声明，那就是一种好奇心和一种愿意抛弃自己的叙述的意愿，特别是你所说的人们将自己的经历视为事实，而实际上——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Often, yeah

经常，是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

it's just two different stories.

这只是两个不同的故事。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

But sometimes it is.

但有时确实如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Neither person is correct, or one person...

没有一个人是正确的，或者一个人...

But people have these stories which are almost confabulation at some point, but they feel so true to all of us when we experience them.

但人们的这些故事在某些时候几乎是虚构的，但当我们经历它们时，它们对我们所有人来说都是如此真实。

I also feel like that's a lot of what's happening in culture at large.

我也觉得这就是整个文化中正在发生的很多事情。

Diametrically opposed camps really believe that the same thing is a reflection of two completely different series of facts, and it seems almost unsolvable at the level of culture.

截然对立的阵营确实认为同一件事是两个完全不同系列事实的反映，在文化层面上似乎几乎无法解决。

There's just too many people.

人太多了。

But at the level of two individuals, I feel like it ought to be- ...

但在两个人的层面上，我觉得应该是……

tractable.

易于处理。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

I have gone to a lot of meetings in the last year on issues of polarization on societal levels, and I often think, like, "What is a psychologist or a couples therapist doing in those meetings?

去年我参加了很多关于社会层面两极分化问题的会议，我经常想，“心理学家或夫妻治疗师在这些会议上做什么？

Why am I invited here?" And then I think, "You know what?

为什么会邀请我来这里？”然后我想：“你知道吗？

You actually have a lot of experience with polarizations." Sitting for a long time with couples who once actually thought in the presence of the other I discover myself, now can be so at odds.

事实上，你在极化方面有很多经验。”与曾经真正在对方面前思考的夫妇一起坐了很长时间，我发现自己现在可能如此矛盾。

They're sitting in the same room.

他们坐在同一个房间。

They're listening to the same session.

他们正在听同一场会议。

They have a complete different interpretation of what I said and what it meant, and they leave and you wonder, "Did it happen in the same room?" And the same thing is about what they describe about the night before.

他们对我所说的话和意思有完全不同的解释，然后他们离开，你会想，“这是在同一个房间里发生的吗？”他们对前一天晚上的描述也是如此。

And if you didn't see them together and you saw them each alone, you would be completely mistaken, because it's like Swiss cheese.

如果你没有看到他们在一起，而是单独看到他们，那你就完全错了，因为这就像瑞士奶酪。

Everything that one has left out is where the other one starts.

一个人遗漏的一切都是另一个人开始的地方。

So, we learn a lot from doing couples work around the process of polarization, around the process of intractable conflict, around the sense that you are my enemy and there is nothing in what you say that I can recognize or be empathic towards or understanding.

因此，我们从夫妻工作中学到了很多东西，围绕着两极分化的过程，围绕着棘手的冲突的过程，围绕着你是我的敌人，而你所说的话我无法识别或同情或理解的感觉。

I think on a societal level, the people who have studied intractable conflict basically have a method of how you bring two opposing parties, factions, tribes who have been in conflict and at war for a long time, and how you bring them together.

我认为在社会层面上，研究棘手冲突的人基本上都有一个方法，如何将两个长期处于冲突和战争状态的对立政党、派系、部落拉在一起，以及如何将他们聚集在一起。

There's actually a method, a process.

其实是有方法、有过程的。

It's not written in stone, but you certainly don't start by talking about the things that drive you completely apart and unable to talk to each other.

这不是一成不变的，但你肯定不会从谈论那些让你们完全分开、无法互相交谈的事情开始。

You start by finding some elements of your shared humanity.

你首先要找到你们共同的人性的一些元素。

In a couple, because that is the space we talk about now, in a couple, it's an incredible thing how people can literally think that the other person wants their demise.

在情侣中，因为这就是我们现在谈论的空间，在情侣中，人们真的认为对方想要他们的死亡，这是一件令人难以置信的事情。

You live day in, day out with someone who you really think wants to hurt you, is your enemy.

你日复一日地与一个你真正认为想要伤害你的人生活在一起，他是你的敌人。

And sometimes there is evil.

有时也有邪恶。

There's people who don't have good intentions.

总有一些人不怀好意。

But in many situations, it's also a projection.

但在很多情况下，它也是一种投影。

It's also experiences that you've had in the past.

这也是您过去的经历。

And this is where what's interesting is that the narrative, the conscious narrative, lives here, and what you call the brain that can only locate itself in three temporal...

有趣的是，叙事、有意识的叙事就存在于此，而你所说的大脑只能在三个时间中定位自己……

And the brain and the physiology are in a different time.

大脑和生理机能处于不同的时间。

Implicit memory is completely influencing explicit narrative

内隐记忆完全影响显性叙事

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yep.

是的。

People are incredibly prone to confabulation based on these unconscious things going on.

人们非常容易根据这些无意识的事情进行闲聊。

And it's kind of a scary thought.

这是一个有点可怕的想法。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

If I feel it, this is what's happening.

如果我感觉到了，那就是正在发生的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's right.

没错。

Right.

正确的。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

And because we are creatures of meaning, we need to reconcile those things, and we need coherence in our narratives.

因为我们是有意义的生物，所以我们需要协调这些事情，并且我们的叙述需要连贯性。

And that coherence is what is so difficult for when you work with people, what is it that they're holding on to?

当你与人们一起工作时，这种一致性是非常困难的，他们坚持的是什么？

One of the classic examples is, someone says, "I'm really sorry, I didn't mean to," and the other one says, "That's not the case." If someone tells you, "I didn't mean to hurt you," you would think that someone would say, "Ah, that's reassuring.

一个典型的例子是，有人说：“我真的很抱歉，我不是故意的”，而另一个人则说：“事实并非如此。”如果有人告诉你，“我不是故意伤害你的”，你会认为有人会说，“啊，这让人放心。

I like to hear that.

我喜欢听这个。

I hope that's true.

我希望这是真的。

Makes me feel a lot better," rather than proving to you that that's not true.

让我感觉好多了”，而不是向你证明那不是真的。

You wanted to step on my toes.

你想踩我的脚趾。

You intentionally put those heels on, or those shoes or those fists to step on me.

你故意穿上高跟鞋、鞋子或拳头来踩我。

And that coherence of maintaining the idea that if I feel that you hurt me, you must have been wanting to hurt me, rather than I can be hurt, and that doesn't mean you intentionally were trying to do anything.

保持这样一个想法的连贯性：如果我觉得你伤害了我，那么你一定是想伤害我，而不是我会受到伤害，这并不意味着你故意试图做任何事情。

It's as if I need to justify my being hurt by the intention of what you did, and to just make sure, sometimes that's the case.

就好像我需要证明我因你所做的事情的意图而受到伤害是合理的，并且只是为了确定，有时情况确实如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

It's not that there are not people who intentionally want to hurt some people.

并不是说没有人故意想要伤害一些人。

But at other times, what I'm highlighting is that the coherence to make sense of why I'm feeling this way demands that I also define what you are trying to do to me.

但在其他时候，我要强调的是，为了理解为什么我有这种感觉，我还需要定义你想对我做什么。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And in reality, most people are terrible at understanding how they themselves feel, let alone someone else's intentions.

事实上，大多数人都很难理解自己的感受，更不用说别人的意图了。

If somebody apologizes and says, "Listen, I'm truly sorry.

如果有人道歉并说：“听着，我真的很抱歉。

I screwed up," and the other person says, "I don't believe you," I think what they're really saying, you can tell me if I'm wrong, is, "I don't feel better as a consequence of your apology."

我搞砸了，”另一个人说，“我不相信你，”我想他们真正想说的是，“你的道歉并没有让我感觉好一些，你可以告诉我，如果我错了。”

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

That's because your apology, "I screwed up," is incomplete.

那是因为你的道歉“我搞砸了”是不完整的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Most of the time, people say that, "I made a mistake.

大多数时候，人们会说：“我犯了一个错误。

I'm sorry," but it doesn't acknowledge what the other person felt in response to what we did.

我很抱歉”，但它并没有承认对方对我们所做的事情的感受。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So let's say that the apology also includes that, "I really messed up.

因此，假设道歉还包括：“我真的搞砸了。

It makes total sense that you would be upset.

你会感到不安是完全有道理的。

We had an agreement that we would meet at 7:00, and I didn't get home until 9:00, and I didn't notify you until 8:00.

我们约好7：00见面，我9：00才到家，8：00才通知你。

I would be upset, too.

我也会很难过。

That's totally justified.

这是完全有道理的。

That sucks.

太糟糕了。

That's got to really suck." At that point, if the other person still feels like it's still frustrating, presumably it's because either this is a pattern.

这真的很糟糕。”到那时，如果对方仍然觉得这仍然令人沮丧，大概是因为这只是一种模式。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So this one apology doesn't encapsulate-

所以这一道歉并没有概括——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

That's right

没错

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

all the other-

所有其他的——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

That's right

没错

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

the sort of litany of other things that relate to this, of feeling unseen or unappreciated or-

与此相关的一连串其他事情，感觉被忽视或不被欣赏，或者——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

there's often a lot more behind this-

这背后往往还有更多的事情——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Yep

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

the event.

事件。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

You've apologized many times.

你已经道歉很多次了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Or yeah, it could be a pattern of apologies that don't equate to change, or it could be a pattern of an apology that doesn't encapsulate all the other things that weren't voiced.

或者，是的，这可能是一种不等于改变的道歉模式，或者它可能是一种不包含所有其他未表达的内容的道歉模式。

Because sometimes people won't voice their grievances, for whatever reason, but there's a lot of resentment that's built up, right?

因为有时人们不会表达他们的不满，无论出于什么原因，但有很多怨恨已经积累起来，对吗？

So in that moment when somebody tells another that they are not convinced, emotionally convinced, what are the tools that you give each in order to be able to navigate that sticking point?

因此，当有人告诉另一个人他们不相信、情感上不相信时，你为每个人提供了什么工具，以便能够解决这个症结？

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

I think apology is an amazing topic in the realm of relationship.

我认为道歉是关系领域中一个令人惊奇的话题。

It's a huge piece.

这是一个巨大的块。

Apology, forgiveness, ownership, responsibility, accountability, that whole range of things.

道歉、宽恕、所有权、责任、责任，诸如此类的事情。

I think if you give that apology, many times, and it's not that you're doing this every Tuesday, the person will probably just say, "Thank you." If you have someone who can't receive an apology, and the apology is sincere, that's the first and foremost thing that accompanies an apology, then you begin to ask, "Why is this person struggling to receive this?" Because it is the thing that you should be getting.

我认为，如果你多次道歉，而且不是每个星期二都这样做，那么对方可能只会说：“谢谢。”如果你有一个人无法接受道歉，而道歉是真诚的，这是伴随道歉而来的首要事情，那么你就会开始问：“为什么这个人很难接受这个道歉？”因为这是你应该得到的东西。

And then you start to ask yourself, "Is it because if I accept your apology, it's as if I agree that what you did wasn't so bad?

然后你开始问自己：“是不是因为如果我接受你的道歉，就好像我同意你所做的事情并没有那么糟糕？

It is repairable.

它是可以修复的。

And in order to really make clear that a grievance is big, I cannot receive your apology." That's one of the-

为了真正表明冤屈很大，我不能接受你的道歉。”这是其中之一——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

...

...

dynamics that often occurs in that moment.

那一刻经常发生的动态。

And so you ask sometimes.

所以你有时会问。

You sit and you see.

你坐下来看看。

You see somebody who pretends to say, "I'm sorry." You see somebody who just says, "Come on, what's the big deal?" And then you see people who really are sincere.

你会看到有人假装说：“对不起。”你会看到有人只是说：“得了吧，有什么大不了的？”然后你就会看到那些真正真诚的人。

And then you watch what's happening to the other person.

然后你观察另一个人发生了什么。

Are they relieved?

他们放心了吗？

Are they suspicious?

他们可疑吗？

Are they feeling like they would dissolve a certain element of their identity if they don't hold on to this?

他们是否觉得如果不坚持这一点，他们就会溶解自己身份的某些元素？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Is it as if they're saying, "You can get away with it.

他们是不是在说：“你可以逃脱惩罚。

It's not as bad," because accepting the apology is to minimize the issue?

没那么糟糕”，因为接受道歉就是为了将问题最小化？

And then you switch the burden on the other side.

然后你把负担转移到另一边。

In Judaism, you apologize three times, and if after the third time, and you've done a real reckoning apology, if after the three time the other person does not accept it, the burden passes over to the other person.

在犹太教中，你道歉三次，如果在第三次之后，你已经做了真正的道歉，如果三次之后对方不接受，负担就转移到对方身上。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Interesting

有趣

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

This is my money desk, and I think it's an incredibly interesting idea, that at some point, the person has made the amends, when they have.

这是我的收款台，我认为这是一个非常有趣的想法，在某些时候，这个人已经做出了弥补，当他们有的时候。

And when you cannot receive it, then now the burden passes on you.

当你无法接受它时，那么现在这个负担就转移到你身上了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm just going to hover there for a second because I agree that apology is such an interesting and important concept, and you mentioned that accepting somebody's apology at an emotional level, not just saying, "Thank you, I accept your apology," but really internalizing that, and allowing space for it to shift your experience of the thing that hurt.

我只想在那里徘徊一秒钟，因为我同意道歉是一个如此有趣和重要的概念，你提到在情感层面上接受某人的道歉，不仅仅是说，“谢谢你，我接受你的道歉”，而是真正将其内化，并为其留出空间来改变你对伤害事物的体验。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

And by the way, accepting the apology doesn't yet mean that you forgive.

顺便说一句，接受道歉并不意味着你原谅了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Forgive is your freedom.

宽恕是你的自由。

You decide at what point you do it, and you may do it alone.

你决定在什么时候做这件事，而且你可以单独做。

It's not always a dyadic experience.

这并不总是一种二元体验。

Apology is a dyadic experience.

道歉是一种二元体验。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

But forgiveness is freedom.

但宽恕就是自由。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

I appreciate that distinction, now that you've given it.

既然你已经给予了这种区别，我很感激。

I appreciate you giving that distinction.

我感谢您给予这种区别。

I did not make that distinction before.

我以前没有做过这样的区分。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

I love this topic because-

我喜欢这个话题，因为——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

...

...

it's really so many things happen underneath.

下面真的发生了很多事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

There's issues of shame around apology.

道歉存在羞耻感的问题。

What's the difference between shame and responsibility?

羞耻感和责任感有什么区别？

What is the capacity of a person to have real distress rather than empathic distress?

一个人有什么能力承受真正的痛苦而不是共情的痛苦？

Real empathy rather than empathic distress.

真正的同理心而不是同理心的困扰。

So it's a portal into a lot of things.

所以它是了解很多事情的门户。

There are people who can never apologize.

有些人永远无法道歉。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because to do so would what for them?

因为这样做对他们来说意味着什么？

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Shame.

耻辱。

I think a lot of it that piece is around shame.

我认为那篇文章很多内容都是关于羞耻的。

Because self-esteem, as my friend Terry Real says, is your ability to see yourself as a flawed individual and still hold yourself in high regard.

因为正如我的朋友特里·雷尔（Terry Real）所说，自尊是你将自己视为有缺陷的人并仍然高度重视自己的能力。

When you admit your flaw, it means there's something wrong with you, then it's very hard to say, "I'm sorry." This is the essence.

当你承认自己的缺点时，就意味着你有问题，那么就很难说“对不起”。这就是本质。

How do you see yourself as imperfect, flawed, but you still respect yourself, and you hold yourself in high regard?

你如何看待自己不完美、有缺陷，但仍然尊重自己、高度重视自己？

If you can do those two things, you can apologize very easily.

如果你能做到这两点，你就可以很容易地道歉。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, I find that so much of being an adult, again, in quotes-

好吧，我发现作为一个成年人的很多内容，再次用引号括起来——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Yes.

是的。

You would hope.

你会希望的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

involves, the disambiguating two things.

涉及消除两件事的歧义。

One is we're taught to really trust our own experience to some extent, to stand our ground when we know A is true and B is false, but then also part of being an adult is admitting when we're wrong.

一是我们被教导要在某种程度上真正相信自己的经验，当我们知道A是真的、B是假的时候要坚持自己的立场，但作为成年人的一部分就是承认我们错了。

And there's no real-time rulebook for that, especially given that people have different versions of the same thing often.

并且没有实时的规则手册，特别是考虑到人们经常对同一事物有不同的版本。

But it seems to me that one of the great challenges, not just in romantic relationship, but in relationships of all kinds, is to really be able to slow down and enter the state of mind and body that allows us to do the kind of processing you're talking about.

但在我看来，巨大的挑战之一，不仅是在浪漫关系中，而且在所有类型的关系中，都是真正能够放慢速度，进入让我们能够进行你所说的那种处理的身心状态。

So at a very practical level, I'm curious, let's say a couple comes into your office, and they're dealing with either a single-

所以在非常实际的层面上，我很好奇，假设一对夫妇来到你的办公室，他们正在处理一个单身——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Conflict

冲突

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

hurt or a litany of hurts or something like that.

受伤或一连串的伤害或类似的事情。

Do you believe it's important for them to shift out of their emotional state to be able to process differently?

您认为他们摆脱情绪状态以进行不同的处理很重要吗？

At the beginning of a session, do you have them do a couple deep breaths together?

在课程开始时，你会让他们一起做几次深呼吸吗？

Do you have them recall a time when they felt particularly bonded?

你是否让他们回忆起他们感到特别亲密的时刻？

Is there an effort to shift their somatic state in order to bring their mind to a place of-

是否有努力改变他们的躯体状态，以便将他们的思想带到一个地方——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

more curiosity?

更多好奇心？

Or is going straight to the issue often the best way in?

或者直接讨论问题通常是最好的方法吗？

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

First of all, I like it's interesting we're going from apology to conflict.

首先，我觉得我们从道歉到冲突很有趣。

It makes total sense.

这是完全有道理的。

I spent last year creating a whole course on conflict, and how do you turn conflict into connection?

我去年花了一整套关于冲突的课程，如何将冲突转化为联系？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Beautiful.

美丽。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

What is good conflict?

什么是好的冲突？

I think conflict is inherent to relationships.

我认为冲突是关系中固有的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

And then what are problematic ways to deal with conflict?

那么处理冲突的有问题的方法是什么？

Yes, on some level, there is very little you can hear if you are in a state of hyperarousal.

是的，在某种程度上，如果您处于过度兴奋的状态，您几乎听不到任何声音。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

If you are in a position of self-protection, all these stressful places, all these cortisol levels going up, et cetera, are not going to help you.

如果你处于自我保护的位置，所有这些有压力的地方、所有这些皮质醇水平上升等等，都不会帮助你。

But at the same time, you can't, in the moment that someone is completely agitated, talk with them about trusting.

但与此同时，你不能在某人完全焦躁的那一刻与他们谈论信任。

It's just like the physiology is not corresponding.

就好像生理上不对应一样。

So it's a real dance.

所以这是一场真正的舞蹈。

I don't do the breath often, sometimes.

有时我不经常呼吸。

I actually don't do anything all the time.

其实我一直什么都不做。

I'm working like a tailor.

我像裁缝一样工作。

I do fittings.

我是做配件的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

I think the richness of therapy is in its art on some level.

我认为治疗的丰富性在某种程度上在于它的艺术。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

But sometimes I just say, "I think you need to stand up and move, and just listen to what your partner has to say, but don't sit." Sometimes I say, "Don't look at each other." Sometimes I say, "Turn to each other." Some things are better done face-to-face, and some things are better done side by side.

但有时我只是说，“我认为你需要站起来走动，听听你的伴侣说的话，但不要坐着。”有时我会说：“不要互相看对方。”有时我会说：“转向彼此。”有些事情最好面对面做，有些事情最好并肩做。

Parallel play.

并行游戏。

Fishing.

钓鱼。

There's a lot of, like driving.

有很多，比如开车。

Every parent who's ever had a kid in the back knows this.

每个养过孩子的父母都知道这一点。

You have both.

你两者都有。

You have moments when you need to be able to look into each other, and then there are moments where you just need to do...

有些时候，你们需要能够互相审视，然后有些时候，你们只需要做……

There's something about the side by side.

并排有一些东西。

Then it's also the limits of words.

那么这也是文字的限制。

When is it important to talk?

什么时候说话很重要？

And when we're talking because we are Homo sapiens, but in fact, if we were animals, we would be just making noises.

当我们说话时，因为我们是智人，但事实上，如果我们是动物，我们只会发出声音。

We're not really making sense.

我们真的没有道理。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

So stop talking.

所以别再说了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

So what I try very hard to do is To not let people show the worst side of themselves.

所以我非常努力做的就是不让人们展现出自己最坏的一面。

They can do that at home.

他们可以在家做。

They don't need to come and shame themselves in my office.

他们不需要来我的办公室羞辱自己。

And I do know that certain situations will draw the worst out of people, but that doesn't mean that that's who they are.

我确实知道某些情况会让人们变得最糟糕，但这并不意味着他们就是这样。

And that's one of the big things as a therapist is to not fall for that.

作为一名治疗师，最重要的事情之一就是不要上当。

Because if you met these people alone, they would be charming.

因为如果你单独见到这些人，他们会很有魅力。

And if you had met them maybe two years before, they would've been charming, too.

如果你在两年前认识他们，他们也会很迷人。

So something's happening between them that is making them act and react from places of deep hurt, and fear, and attack, and all of that, and aggression.

因此，他们之间发生了一些事情，使他们从深深的伤害、恐惧、攻击以及所有这些和侵略的地方采取行动和做出反应。

And sometimes I see them alone.

有时我单独看到他们。

I don't think that you are capable of having this conversation at this moment, because you're not willing to take any responsibility when you're sitting next to your partner.

我认为你现在没有能力进行这样的谈话，因为当你坐在你的伴侣旁边时，你不愿意承担任何责任。

You're in a blame fest, and we're not going to do that.

你陷入了一场责怪盛宴，我们不会这样做。

So I'm going to talk with you alone, and then I'm going to prepare you to come to your partner with at least one or two things that you can own.

所以我要单独和你谈谈，然后我会让你准备好带着至少一两件你可以拥有的东西来见你的伴侣。

What am I doing to contribute to this mess?

我做了什么才导致这个混乱？

Or what am I doing to make things better?

或者我正在做些什么来让事情变得更好？

I like to start a session by asking, and if I'm dealing with a kind of chronic conflict, low intensity warfare or bigger, it depends, there's different kinds of con...

我喜欢通过询问来开始会议，如果我正在处理一种长期冲突、低强度战争或更大规模的冲突，这取决于，有不同类型的冲突......

But I like to ask, "What have you done this week to make things better?"

但我想问，“这周你做了什么让事情变得更好？”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What a great question.

多么好的问题啊。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

What have you done to make your partner feel that they matter?

你做了什么让你的伴侣觉得他们很重要？

Rather than, "What happened this week?" I kind of have a sense.

而不是“这周发生了什么？”我有点感觉。

Please do not tell me the last unraveling.

请不要告诉我最后的真相。

I got it.

我得到了它。

It goes from zero to 60 in no time, and none of this.

它很快就从 0 变成了 60，而且这一切都没有。

I don't need the details of the story.

我不需要故事的细节。

I need to know what you're doing to each other and what feelings you're instigating in each other.

我需要知道你们对彼此做了什么，以及你们在彼此身上激起了什么样的感受。

I don't need the plot.

我不需要剧情。

There's only three dances.

只有三支舞。

This, aiming at each other, withdrawing from each other, or one person withdrawing and one person pursuing.

这，互相瞄准，互相退出，或者一个人退出，一个人追求。

These are three types of major choreographies of conflict.

这是冲突的三种主要编排。

Nyah or psst, quiet silence, or one goes after the other who is closing the doors, and they follow them through the house.

Nyah 或 psst，安静的沉默，或者一个人追赶另一个关门的人，然后他们跟着他们穿过房子。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Which is following them to a lot of other things.

这跟随他们做了很多其他事情。

And from that place on, you decide, okay, who is doing what to whom?

从那时起，你就可以决定，谁对谁做了什么？

Who is feeling what at the hands of whom?

谁在谁的手中感受什么？

What is influencing this?

是什么在影响这一点？

This person is once again feeling that when this one didn't talk to them, they were being given the silent treatment that they used to feel when they grow up.

这个人再一次感觉到，当这个人不与他们说话时，他们正在接受他们长大后所感受到的沉默对待。

And this feeling of neglect and dismissal is just crushing them because they suddenly feel like they've been rejected completely.

这种被忽视和被忽视的感觉正在压垮他们，因为他们突然觉得自己被彻底拒绝了。

And this one is feeling like they're once again being attacked and invaded by this other person who keeps following them and wants to talk when they have not again.

这个人感觉他们再次受到另一个人的攻击和入侵，这个人一直跟踪他们，并想在他们不再说话时说话。

And is remembering when they were living in the place where they grew up, where they couldn't wait to get out because they were feeling completely flooded and overwhelmed by the shit show of their house.

还记得当他们住在他们长大的地方时，他们迫不及待地想离开那里，因为他们感觉完全被家里的狗屎表演淹没和不知所措。

And these two stories are now dictating what's happening between these two people.

这两个故事现在正在决定这两个人之间发生的事情。

These two people are no longer adults in the room.

房间里的这两个人已经不再是成年人了。

Their younger selves have completely taken over.

他们年轻的自己已经完全占据了主导地位。

Their amygdala is completely flooded.

他们的杏仁核完全被淹没了。

And then it matters.

然后这很重要。

It depends.

这取决于。

Sometimes, because I'm a little bit narrative driven, I may make the mistake to actually go to the story when in fact, sometimes I sit for 10 minutes quiet.

有时，因为我有点受叙事驱动，所以我可能会错误地去真正去看故事，而事实上，有时我会安静地坐 10 分钟。

I say, "We're going to just wait for our systems to regulate," because even I get agitated.

我说，“我们将等待我们的系统进行调节”，因为连我都会感到焦躁。

It's not like I don't absorb it.

我又不是不吸收。

I say, "I think we need some sitting here." Sometimes I put music.

我说：“我想我们需要一些人坐在这里。”有时我会放音乐。

I love music, so I put music.

我喜欢音乐，所以我放音乐。

I just say, "I don't think a single word is going to help here." And sometimes I say, "I think we should stop the session." It depends.

我只是说：“我认为任何一个词都没有帮助。”有时我会说，“我认为我们应该停止会议。”这取决于。

If you think there's something that can be gained, if you start to feel like it's just going to make it worse.

如果你认为有什么可以得到的，如果你开始觉得这只会让事情变得更糟。

And sometimes, in the middle of the session may say, "When's the last time you made him a cup of tea?" And the fact that you can still make a cup of tea to someone who you would like to strangle is really special.

有时，在会议中间可能会说，“你最后一次给他泡杯茶是什么时候？”事实上，你仍然可以为你想勒死的人泡一杯茶，这真的很特别。

It's amazing how we can inhabit two completely contradictory feelings at the same time.

令人惊奇的是，我们竟然能同时拥有两种完全矛盾的感觉。

I can't stand you, get me the hell out of here, and I can't imagine my life without you.

我受不了你，带我离开这里，我无法想象没有你的生活。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Those things coexist, love and hate, side by side.

这些东西并存，爱与恨并存。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a quick break and thank one of our sponsors, Function.

我想稍微休息一下，并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。

I recently became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.

在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我最近成为了 Function 成员。

While I've long been a fan of blood testing, I really wanted to find a more in-depth program for analyzing blood, urine, and saliva to get a full picture of my heart health, my hormone status, my immune system regulation, my metabolic function, my vitamin and mineral status, and other critical areas of my overall health and vitality.

虽然我长期以来一直热衷于血液检测，但我真的很想找到一个更深入的程序来分析血液、尿液和唾液，以全面了解我的心脏健康状况、我的激素状态、我的免疫系统调节、我的代谢功能、我的维生素和矿物质状态以及我整体健康和活力的其他关键领域。

Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors on your results.

Function 不仅提供对身心健康至关重要的 100 多种生物标志物的测试，还分析这些结果并提供顶级医生对结果的见解。

For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had too high levels of mercury in my blood.

例如，在我第一次使用 Function 进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量过高。

This was totally surprising to me.

这让我完全惊讶。

I had no idea prior to taking the test.

参加考试之前我不知道。

Function not only helped me detect this, but offered medical doctor-informed insights on how to best reduce those mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, because I had been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification and worked to reduce my mercury levels.

功能不仅帮助我发现了这一点，而且还为我提供了如何最好地降低汞含量的医生知情见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼消费，因为我一直在吃大量金枪鱼​​，同时还努力多吃绿叶蔬菜并补充 NAC、N-乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒，并有助于降低我的汞含量。

Comprehensive lab testing like this is so important for health, and while I've been doing it for years I've always found it to be overly complicated and expensive.

像这样的综合实验室测试对健康非常重要，虽然我已经做了很多年，但我总是发现它过于复杂和昂贵。

I've been so impressed by Function, both at the level of ease of use, that is, getting the test done, as well as how comprehensive and how actionable the tests are, that I recently joined their advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.

Function 给我留下了深刻的印象，无论是在易用性方面，即完成测试，还是在测试的全面性和可操作性方面，我最近加入了他们的顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。

If you'd like to try Function, go to functionhealth.com/huberman.

如果您想尝试 Function，请访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。

Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman Lab listeners.

Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等待名单，但他们正在为 Huberman Lab 听众提供早期访问机会。

Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.

同样，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。

There's something that I really want to revisit that you said.

你说的有件事我真的很想重温一下。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You said it incredibly clearly, but I have never heard this described, and I think it's so very important for people to hear and internalize, including me, that I'm going to ask us to visit it again.

你说得非常清楚，但我从来没有听过这样的描述，我认为这对于人们（包括我）来说，听到和内化非常重要，所以我会要求我们再次访问它。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Uh-huh.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But not because you weren't clear, but just because I think it-

但不是因为你不清楚，而是因为我认为——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

No, I'm curious, what is it?

不，我很好奇，这是什么？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So as a biologist, when we teach biology, the good biologists, good teachers, we emphasize names only because people need to know them.

因此，作为一名生物学家，当我们教授生物学时，优秀的生物学家、优秀的老师，我们强调名字只是因为人们需要了解它们。

This is called that, this is called that.

这叫那，这叫那。

But it's all about verbs.

但这都是关于动词的。

It's all about processes and dynamics.

这都是关于流程和动态的。

And what you just described as the three verb states of conflict-

你刚才描述的冲突的三种动词状态——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

I think I've never heard articulated that way.

我想我从来没有听过这样的表述。

So you described, if I understand it correctly-

所以你描述了，如果我理解正确的话-

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Pursuer, pursuer

追击者，追击者

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

Right.

对。

Either one person pursuing another.

要么一个人追求另一个人。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

No. Pursuer, pursuer is both people-

不，追求者，追求者都是人——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, pursuer, pursuer is-

哦，追击者，追击者是——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

...

...

go at each other

互相攻击

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

loggerheads.

互相争执。

Okay.

好的。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Those are escalations.

这些都是升级。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Two arrows pointing at one another.

两个箭头互相指向。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Two arrows, yes.

两个箭头，是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And not in a good way.

而且不是以一种好的方式。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

No.

不。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

In conflict, it's usually not at a good way.

在冲突中，通常不是一个好的方式。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

There's a whole interpretation of an attachment style that underlies why two people in the situation of threat go on the attack.

对依恋风格有一个完整的解释，它是两个人在受到威胁的情况下进行攻击的原因。

You have two people fighting.

你们有两个人在战斗。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

You have two people flighting-

你有两个人在飞行-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

...

...

fleeing-

逃跑——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

...

...

and you have one person who flees and one person who fights.

一个人逃跑，一个人战斗。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

That's another language for pursuer, pursuer, distancer, distancer, pursuer, distancer.

这是另一种表达追求者、追求者、距离者、距离者、追求者、距离者的语言。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

And in each of those cases, it seems that the first step to getting to a more functional dynamic to try and sort this out, whatever the conflict is, is to somehow change one's mindset from talking about the story of what led there, or stories of what led there, to really starting to parse the feeling states of ourselves and hopefully empathy for the feeling state of the other.

在每一种情况下，无论冲突是什么，要达到更实用的动态，尝试解决这个问题，第一步似乎是以某种方式改变一个人的心态，从谈论导致那里的故事，或导致那里的故事，真正开始解析我们自己的感受状态，并希望能够同情他人的感受状态。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

It's feeling states and physiological states.

这是感觉状态和生理状态。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

It's two different things.

这是两件不同的事情。

The physiology is more primitive, more basic.

生理学更原始、更基础。

It's physiology, senses, feelings, thoughts, is the way I would...

这是生理、感官、感觉、思想，这就是我想要的方式……

But because I say it, because we are Homo sapiens and we think, this thing about coherence and thinking that what we say has meaning is extremely powerful to the point sometimes of delusional.

但因为我这么说，因为我们是智人，我们认为，这种关于连贯性和认为我们所说的有意义的事情非常强大，有时甚至达到了妄想的程度。

Because I have to believe this, because there would be too much dissonance if what I feel and what I think and what therefore happened didn't all have a coherence to themselves.

因为我必须相信这一点，因为如果我的感受、我的想法以及因此发生的事情本身不具有连贯性，就会有太多的不和谐。

And sometimes when you see it in the room, you kind of say, "They never said that."

有时当你在房间里看到它时，你会说，“他们从来没有这么说过。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

It's almost like a psychosis of sorts.

这几乎就像某种精神病。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

It's an internal-

这是一个内部的——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm not calling either person psychotic, but-

我并不是说任何一个人都是精神病，但是——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Well, it's psychotic because it's a disconnection from reality.

嗯，这是精神病，因为它与现实脱节。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

I would say it's such an inhabiting of an internal reality-

我想说这是一种内在现实的栖息——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

...

...

that it is disconnected from the possibility, and this is where curiosity comes in.

它与可能性脱节，而这就是好奇心发挥作用的地方。

It's the possibility that what you are experiencing is completely real in its experience, but that doesn't mean it is factual, or it is real in reality.

你所经历的事情有可能是完全真实的，但这并不意味着它是事实，或者在现实中是真实的。

When I'm hurt and when I am thinking that you want to harm me, it's very difficult for me in that moment to be willing to be empathic towards you.

当我受伤时，当我认为你想伤害我时，那一刻我很难愿意对你产生同理心。

And there are relationships where this is the truth.

在某些关系中，这是事实。

I want to constantly come back to that, because not everything is imagined.

我想不断地回到这一点，因为并不是一切都是想象的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Sure.

当然。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

But there are many other relationships where why would he want...

但还有许多其他关系，他为什么要……

Maybe he stepped away because he just thought that whatever was going to come out of his mouth, he would regret.

也许他走开了，因为他只是觉得无论从他嘴里说出什么，他都会后悔。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

It is not because he doesn't care about you.

这并不是因为他不关心你。

In factually, it's the opposite.

事实上，恰恰相反。

And he knows what he can sometimes say.

他知道有时他可以说什么。

He, they, she, doesn't matter.

他、他们、她，都不重要。

But not because he wanted to just throw you to the wolves.

但并不是因为他想把你扔进狼群。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's almost like we lose our theory of mind, our ability to-

这几乎就像我们失去了我们的心智理论，我们的能力——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

place ourselves in the mind of another in a healthy way when we're in these stress states.

当我们处于压力状态时，以健康的方式将自己置于他人的思想中。

I'm curious, as-

我很好奇，因为——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

It's funny you call it stress states, because stress to me is so physiological that it doesn't include the relational component.

有趣的是你称之为压力状态，因为对我来说压力是如此生理性的，以至于它不包括关系成分。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Sure.

当然。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

There needs to be a word for stress that involves the emotional reality, and that emotional reality that now may be somewhat imagined, and this is why it's complicated, was once true.

需要有一个词来描述涉及情感现实的压力，而现在可能有点想象的情感现实曾经是真实的，这就是它复杂的原因。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

What now is an internal truth once was what really happened.

现在成为内部事实的事情曾经是真正发生过的事情。

And that's why we imagine, and this is how we interpret the dynamic.

这就是我们想象的原因，这就是我们解释动态的方式。

It's very important to add that.

补充这一点非常重要。

So the past was real.

所以过去是真实的。

There was someone in the past who actually did this to me.

过去确实有人对我做过这样的事。

But when you do this, I think of them, I bring those two things together.

但当你这样做时，我会想到它们，我会将这两件事结合在一起。

I collapse the past and the present, and that's why I'm convinced this is what you're doing to me, too.

我瓦解了过去和现在，这就是为什么我确信这也是你对我做的事情。

And so how do you take somebody out of their physical and mental and emotional past to be grounding themselves into the present so that they can consider that this person that is next to them is not doing to them what once was done to them?

那么，你如何才能让一个人从他们的身体、精神和情感的过去中解脱出来，让自己扎根于现在，这样他们就可以认为，旁边的这个人并没有对他们做曾经对他们做过的事呢？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

And my mind immediately goes to what you just described as a shift from focusing mainly on the past and how it's making us feel in the present, to how we're feeling in the present, acknowledging and understanding something did happen, that was real, as you said, and yet with this curious eye toward the future-

我的思绪立即转向你刚才所描述的转变，从主要关注过去以及它让我们现在的感受，转向我们现在的感受，承认并理解确实发生了一些事情，正如你所说，那是真实的，但带着对未来的好奇眼光——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

of what could unfold.

可能发生的事情。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

That's probably the hardest nugget of couples therapy.

这可能是夫妻治疗中最难的部分。

I do individual work too, but if we talk relational therapy, this is one of those nuggets.

我也做个人工作，但如果我们谈论关系治疗，这就是其中之一。

Because people are not aware that they are in their past.

因为人们没有意识到他们已经处于过去。

They are convinced that this is in the present.

他们确信这就是现在。

It's a collapse of time zones-

这是时区的崩溃——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm

毫米

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

...

...

and realities.

和现实。

It's what makes us so rich, it's what makes us so able to be creative and artful, but it's what sometimes makes it very challenging for us, especially in romantic relationships.

它使我们如此富有，它使我们如此富有创造力和艺术性，但它有时使我们变得非常具有挑战性，尤其是在浪漫关系中。

Because you asked, at first, you began with romantic relationships.

因为你问，一开始，你是从恋爱关系开始的。

A lot of what we say here is true for friendships and work relationships, but there is only two relationships that mirror each other.

我们在这里所说的很多内容对于友谊和工作关系都是正确的，但只有两种关系是相互镜像的。

It's the one we had with our first caretakers, mostly our parents, and the ones we have with our romantic partners.

这是我们与我们的第一个照顾者（主要是我们的父母）以及我们与我们的浪漫伴侣的关系。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

People can sit in the office and tell you, "I don't have this with anybody else," and it's true.

人们可以坐在办公室里告诉你，“我没有和其他人发生过这种事”，这是真的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Often.

经常。

You believe them.

你相信他们。

Because nobody gets as close to you and nobody elicits in you those kinds of early yearnings and emotional needs than a romantic partner, and that is very interesting.

因为没有人比浪漫的伴侣更能接近你，也没有人能激发你早期的渴望和情感需求，这非常有趣。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, I don't know if it's a bug or a feature, as the engineers say, but it is remarkable to me that the very same neural machinery that forms the underpinning of infant-primary caretaker relationship is repurposed for romantic relationship.

嗯，我不知道这是一个错误还是一个功能，正如工程师们所说，但对我来说值得注意的是，构成婴儿-初级看护者关系基础的相同神经机制被重新用于浪漫关系。

I marvel at that.

我对此感到惊奇。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Interesting.

有趣。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right?

对吗？

The brain doesn't have like, "Oh, here's your developmental wiring circuits, and then guess what?

大脑不会这样说：“哦，这是你的发育线路，然后你猜怎么着？

You get to hit adolescence and you go through puberty, and then you get this new circuit for forming a romantic attachment."

你会进入青春期，经历青春期，然后你就会获得形成浪漫依恋的新回路。”

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

It's the same one.

这是同一个。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The brain imaging shows us that it's repurposed.

大脑成像显示它已被重新利用。

So it's like if you got a two plus two equals four algorithm in that circuit, let's call that securely attached, although I realize that language is not sufficient, but for just purposes of discussion.

因此，就像如果您在该电路中有一个二加二等于四的算法，我们称其为安全连接，尽管我意识到语言还不够，但只是为了讨论的目的。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Well, then great.

嗯，那就太好了。

Then you get healthy romantic attachments as adults or you as an adult, then perhaps you can navigate in and out of things that are unhealthy more quickly.

然后，当你作为成年人或你作为一个成年人获得健康的浪漫依恋时，也许你可以更快地进出不健康的事物。

However, if you got a two plus two equals five algorithm wired into that circuit, well, then you're forever looking for something that is essentially dysfunctional.

然而，如果您将二加二等于五的算法连接到该电路中，那么您将永远在寻找本质上功能失调的东西。

That's the simplest version of this.

这是最简单的版本。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Tell me more about this repurposing.

告诉我更多关于这次重新调整用途的信息。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

It's really interesting.

这真的很有趣。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

So, beautiful work by Allan Schore and others has-

所以，艾伦·肖尔（Allan Schore）和其他人的精美作品——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

whose work I know you're familiar with, has shown that you image the brain of infant and typically its mother, but they've done other caretakers as well, and you see this incredible mirroring of sure, right brain, left brain activity, more dopaminergic or serotonergic activity.

我知道你很熟悉他的工作，它表明你可以想象婴儿的大脑，通常是婴儿的母亲，但他们也对其他看护者进行了想象，你会看到这种令人难以置信的右脑、左脑活动、更多的多巴胺能或血清素能活动的镜像。

Basically, the takeaway is that you see a lot of coherence.

基本上，要点是你会看到很多一致性。

What's going on in the mother is going on in the child and vice versa, and there's a lot of reciprocity.

母亲身上发生的事情也会发生在孩子身上，反之亦然，并且存在很多互惠关系。

But sometimes in unhealthy caretaker-infant relationships, the so-called anxious, attached, dissociative, or avoidant type scenarios, the ABCD baby type thing, people can look that up if they like, we can provide a link.

但有时在不健康的看护者与婴儿的关系中，所谓的焦虑、依恋、分离或回避型场景，ABCD婴儿型的事情，人们如果愿意的话可以查一下，我们可以提供一个链接。

You see a mismatch in the neurochemistry and the activation of these brain areas.

您会看到这些大脑区域的神经化学和激活不匹配。

In other words, the brain circuitry for attachment is set up so that anxious states are evoked when calm states should've been.

换句话说，大脑的依恋回路被建立起来，以便在本应平静的状态下引发焦虑的状态。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Had there been better parenting-

如果有更好的养育方式——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

All right.

好的。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But then you essentially run the same sorts of studies on romantically attached young adults or older adults, and what you see is it's the same sets of neurons, the same circuits.

但本质上，你对恋爱中的年轻人或老年人进行同样类型的研究，你会看到相同的神经元组、相同的回路。

This is remarkable.

这是非常了不起的。

Nowhere else, to my awareness, nowhere else in the nervous system do we repurpose neural circuitry from early in life.

据我所知，在神经系统的其他任何地方，我们都没有从生命早期就重新利用神经回路。

It's as if there's a neural circuit for sensing thirst and drinking early in life, and then later it's used for sensing how to navigate a city.

就好像生命早期就有一个神经回路来感知口渴和喝水，然后它被用来感知如何在城市中导航。

Okay, now those are two very disparate things.

好吧，现在这是两个截然不同的事情。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But this is-

但这是——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

No, this is very interesting

不，这很有趣

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

outrageous, right?

太离谱了，对吧？

And so I say it's either a feature or a bug, we don't know, but it is the way it is.

所以我说它要么是一个功能，要么是一个错误，我们不知道，但事实就是这样。

Right?

正确的？

I always say I wasn't consulted at the design phase.

我总是说在设计阶段没有征求我的意见。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

What do you think was the evolutionary logic of that?

您认为其进化逻辑是什么？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I like to think, in a kind of romantic way, that some of our most important work in our lifetime is to try and resolve these developmental miswirings-

我喜欢以一种浪漫的方式认为，我们一生中最重要的一些工作就是尝试解决这些发展错误——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

that are the consequence of faulty caretaker-infant relationship, and you can't blame the infant.

这是照顾者与婴儿关系不正确的结果，你不能责怪婴儿。

Now, does that mean we blame our parents to the point of ostracizing them?

那么，这是否意味着我们责怪我们的父母以至于排斥他们？

Well, one would hope not.

好吧，人们希望不会。

Maybe in some cases that's necessary.

也许在某些情况下这是必要的。

But I like to think that what we've observed over the last 10, 20, 30 years, in no small part, seriously, thanks to your work, reflects an evolution of how we are thinking about attachment, that we are actually getting better at understanding the self.

但我喜欢认为，我们在过去 10 年、20 年、30 年中所观察到的情况，在很大程度上，认真地，感谢您的工作，反映了我们对依恋的思考方式的演变，我们实际上在更好地理解自我。

And there's something about the human brain that wants to understand itself.

人类大脑想要了解自身。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Very interesting.

非常有趣。

Very interesting.

非常有趣。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So I like to think that in 100 years, not only will there be more models of relationship as functional, healthy relationships, but there will also be a deeper understanding of what this whole thing of love and attachment really is.

所以我认为，在 100 年内，不仅会出现更多功能性、健康关系的关系模式，而且还会更深入地理解爱和依恋的真正含义。

And the parallel I use is one of biology.

我使用的是生物学的类比之一。

We understand so much more about brain function now than we did just 10 years ago.

与十年前相比，我们现在对大脑功能的了解要多得多。

Addiction, for instance, not just a condition of a failure of willpower-

例如，成瘾不仅仅是意志力失败的一种情况——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Of course

当然

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

but this understanding about dopamine, and other molecules.

但这种对多巴胺和其他分子的了解。

I think we now look at a fentanyl addict or a heroin addict very differently.

我认为我们现在对芬太尼成瘾者或海洛因成瘾者的看法非常不同。

They're caught in a neurochemical algorithm that is not serving them well.

他们陷入了一种不能很好地为他们服务的神经化学算法中。

It doesn't remove their responsibility, but there comes a point where they can't recover themselves, and they need certain supports, and those supports are starting to emerge now.

这并不能免除他们的责任，但到了一定程度，他们就无法恢复自己的状态，他们需要某些支持，而这些支持现在已经开始出现。

So my hope is that this is built into our evolution as some sort of vector toward progress.

所以我希望这能作为某种进步的载体融入到我们的进化中。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

It's interesting because some models of couples work, of couples therapy, will say, "You have recreated with each other patterns of your early life-

这很有趣，因为一些夫妻工作、夫妻治疗的模型会说，“你们已经彼此重新创造了你们早年生活的模式——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

...

...

in order to be able to transcend them."

以便能够超越它们。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

The repetition compulsion.

重复强迫症。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You get the same thing over and over again.

你一遍又一遍地得到同样的东西。

Lord knows I've had that, and some wonderful partners.

天知道我有过这样的经历，还有一些很棒的合作伙伴。

And by the way, as I say that, I'm also taking 50% of the responsibility, or 100% of the responsibility for the choice.

顺便说一句，正如我所说，我也为这个选择承担50%的责任，或者说100%的责任。

As they say, you didn't have six hard relationships, you had one hard relationship six times.

正如他们所说，你没有经历过六次艰难的关系，你经历过六次艰难的关系。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right?

对吗？

I think Paul Conti says it that way.

我认为保罗·孔蒂是这么说的。

But that, yes, that the repetition compulsion is a unconscious attempt to resolve the core conflict that arose during early attachment.

但是，是的，重复强迫是一种无意识的尝试，旨在解决早期依恋期间出现的核心冲突。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Correct.

正确。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Do you subscribe to that view?

你同意这个观点吗？

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

I think it's a very useful idea.

我认为这是一个非常有用的想法。

I was thinking at one point, it's like sometimes when I listen to you and there is an exactness in the things that you describe, often rooted in science and research, et cetera.

我曾经在想，就像有时当我听你说话时，你所描述的事物是准确的，通常植根于科学和研究等。

Couples therapy or psychotherapy, relationship thinking, you don't have an exact answer.

夫妻治疗或心理治疗、关系思考，你没有确切的答案。

First of all, you don't have an exact answer because modern relationships are more complex than ever, and I don't think any relationship expert at this point can have answers.

首先，你没有确切的答案，因为现代关系比以往任何时候都更加复杂，我认为目前任何关系专家都无法给出答案。

You have invitations.

你有邀请函。

You have ways of thinking that are useful, and here is the question: Is it true for me is answered by, do the people, does it resonate for them?

你有有用的思维方式，问题是：对我来说这是真的吗？答案是，人们是否会引起他们的共鸣？

If they buy it, then it's true.

如果他们买了，那就是真的。

It's a framework.

这是一个框架。

I can analyze this tableau in multiple ways.

我可以通过多种方式分析这个画面。

If this is the one that resonates for you, this is what we're going to go with.

如果这引起您的共鸣，这就是我们要选择的。

And that's what makes it true.

这就是它的真实性。

This is a very interesting thing.

这是一件非常有趣的事情。

And to me, it's interesting because there's a whole movement within the world of psychotherapy and psychology that wants to actually become much more normatized with protocols and the same thing for everyone.

对我来说，这很有趣，因为心理治疗和心理学领域有一个整体运动，希望通过协议和对每个人都一样的事情实际上变得更加规范化。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

I think that much of what, at least relationship therapy, which is really the world that I practice in, is existential and it's meaning-making, and there's a lot of ways to do that.

我认为，至少关系治疗（这确实是我所实践的世界）的大部分内容都是存在主义的，它是意义创造的，并且有很多方法可以做到这一点。

So if this interpretation works for you, be my guest.

因此，如果这种解释对您有用，请成为我的客人。

But that's not because it is more true than another.

但这并不是因为它比另一个更真实。

It's the one that was useful for you, and that makes you much more humble.

它对你有用，而且让你更加谦虚。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love that answer.

我喜欢这个答案。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

It's a little bit like when you raise kids.

这有点像抚养孩子。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

I used to think that all these things I had done with my first one is because I had such good ideas.

我曾经认为我第一次做的所有这些事情都是因为我有很好的想法。

Then I had a second one, and none of these things worked with them because it was a different person.

然后我有了第二个，但这些东西都不起作用，因为那是另一个人。

So I realized that the first one, it worked because there was a fit between my method and the person.

所以我意识到第一个方法之所以有效，是因为我的方法和这个人之间存在契合。

And this is the important thing in therapy, is that it's an issue of that fit is what you're looking for.

这是治疗中最重要的一点，那就是你正在寻找的适合的问题。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We hear a lot these days about the different attachment styles or languages of love.

这些天我们听到很多关于不同的依恋风格或爱的语言。

The love languages.

爱的语言。

People will say, "Gifts feel very rewarding," or acts of, what is it?

人们会说，“礼物感觉很有价值”，或者行为是什么？

Words of affirmation, unstructured time, or et cetera.

肯定的话语、无组织的时间等等。

Or people will, I think nowadays, if they look into it a little bit, they'll realize that they are either more avoidant or more anxious.

或者，我认为现在，如果人们稍微研究一下，他们就会意识到自己要么更加回避，要么更加焦虑。

These things can shift.

这些事情可以改变。

I think it's wonderful that people are thinking about these things in the same way that I think it's wonderful that people understand that there's a molecule called dopamine that can do certain things, serotonin, certain things.

我认为人们以同样的方式思考这些事情真是太棒了，我认为人们理解有一种叫做多巴胺的分子可以做某些事情，血清素，某些事情，这是很棒的。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Of course.

当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But I'm curious as to whether or not you feel that the naming of things and the assignment of oneself to a category can sometimes be limiting in terms of one's ability to really embrace this curiosity, and you also used the word invitation, and you are describing couples therapy and healthy relationship as a bit more of an art form than a reductionist protocol-oriented science.

但我很好奇你是否觉得对事物的命名和对自己的分类有时会限制一个人真正拥抱这种好奇心的能力，你也使用了“邀请”这个词，并且你将夫妻治疗和健康关系描述为一种艺术形式，而不是一种还原论的面向协议的科学。

Which I love, because to me, despite being a scientist, some of the great mystery of life and certainly of romantic relationship is, when you find yourself in happy places that you didn't anticipate finding yourself, or in a place of forgiveness and close friendship, when at one point you can recall being, as you said, this person embodies the worst things in your mind.

我喜欢它，因为对我来说，尽管是一名科学家，生活的一些伟大的奥秘，当然还有浪漫关系的奥秘是，当你发现自己处于你没有预料到的快乐的地方，或者处于宽恕和亲密友谊的地方时，当你在某个时刻回忆起，正如你所说，这个人体现了你心中最糟糕的事情。

So I wonder if the processes that you found useful in your clinical work, is it possible to formalize those in a way that people can start to adopt them?

所以我想知道您认为在临床工作中有用的流程是否有可能以人们可以开始采用的方式将其形式化？

In other words, do you think that we can learn to navigate relationship in more healthy ways, not just by saying, "I'm anxiously attached or avoidant or securely attached.

换句话说，你认为我们可以学会以更健康的方式处理关系，而不仅仅是说“我是焦虑型依恋、回避型依恋或安全型依恋。

I'm looking for someone that has that," or, "My love language is this, and they love to do that, and so therefore we're a perfect lock and key." I think people are starting to think about relationship in a more nuanced and sophisticated way, and yet also what I'm hearing is It's a lot more dynamic than that.

我正在寻找拥有这种能力的人，”或者，“我的爱情语言是这样的，他们喜欢这样做，所以我们是一把完美的锁和钥匙。”我认为人们开始以更细致、更复杂的方式思考关系，但我听到的却比这更有活力。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And that some of those categorizations that we assign ourselves can really perhaps be limiting to what could be.

我们给自己分配的一些分类可能确实会限制可能的情况。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

It's a great question, but I have a moment now as if I'm in the session with you where I have five things that are arriving here in front of my brain, and I'm thinking which one am I going to enter?

这是一个很好的问题，但我现在有一个时刻，就好像我正在和你一起进行会议，我的大脑中浮现出五件事，我在想我要进入哪一件？

I'm going to actually start with just the actual question, but then probably is an opportunity to say a little bit about how I approach this thing.

我实际上将从实际问题开始，但这可能是一个机会来谈谈我如何处理这件事。

I think some naming is very useful.

我认为一些命名非常有用。

It frames it.

它把它框起来。

It gives it a foundation, something to hold onto.

它给了它一个基础，一个可以坚持的东西。

Language matters.

语言很重要。

We would not be having a conversation without having a shared language at this moment.

此时此刻，如果没有共同语言，我们就无法进行对话。

But within that, you and I are using the same words and may have very different meanings attached to it.

但在这之中，你和我使用的是相同的词语，并且可能具有非常不同的含义。

So that's the richness of the process is what do you mean when you say invitation, curiosity, conflict, et cetera?

这就是这个过程的丰富性，当你说邀请、好奇心、冲突等等时，你的意思是什么？

For example, when I do the work on conflict, I did provide language.

例如，当我做关于冲突的工作时，我确实提供了语言。

For example, one of the things that happens in conflict is we have confirmation bias.

例如，冲突中发生的事情之一是我们存在确认偏差。

That's a cognitive framework that is often present in situations of emotional conflict, of conflict which involves always an emotional dimension.

这是一种认知框架，通常出现在情感冲突的情况下，冲突总是涉及情感层面。

Could be political, too.

也可能是政治性的。

Confirmation bias means that I am looking for evidence that reinforces my beliefs, and I disregard any evidence that contradicts it.

确认偏见意味着我正在寻找强化我的信念的证据，并且我忽略任何与之相矛盾的证据。

Now, this happens between two people.

现在，这种事发生在两个人之间。

This happens between two parties.

这种情况发生在两方之间。

That's a very important naming.

这是一个非常重要的命名。

It's interesting.

这很有趣。

I've noticed this, this, this, this, but all you mentioned is that.

我注意到了这个，这个，这个，这个，但你提到的只是那个。

Okay, cognitive bias.

好吧，认知偏差。

Another cognitive bias that is very common is fundamental attribution error.

另一种非常常见的认知偏差是基本归因错误。

We have this idea that I am complex, and you are more simple.

我们有这样的想法：我很复杂，你更简单。

If I'm in a bad mood, it's because there was traffic.

如果我心情不好，那是因为交通堵塞。

There's circumstances, there's context.

有环境，有背景。

If you're in a bad mood, it's because you're a cantankerous person.

如果你心情不好，那是因为你是个脾气暴躁的人。

That's just your personality.

这就是你的个性。

We'll categorize and totalize the behavior of others, and we'll have lots of nuance and poetry for our own.

我们会对他人的行为进行分类和汇总，我们自己也会有很多细微差别和诗意。

That's a concept.

这是一个概念。

That concept is very useful.

这个概念非常有用。

It's neutral, it doesn't blame anybody, and it says we all do this.

它是中立的，它不责怪任何人，它说我们都这样做。

I like that kind of naming.

我喜欢这样的命名。

This is very different from the kind of naming that pathologizes people, the kind of naming that locks you into one identity.

这与那种将人们病态化的命名非常不同，这种命名将你锁定在一个身份中。

You may have addiction, and addiction may be really important.

你可能有瘾，而且瘾可能真的很重要。

It may even have destroyed your life, but to just say you're an addict.

它甚至可能毁掉你的生活，但仅仅说你是一个瘾君子。

So I worked in an addiction center for two years, and there were a lot of other things happening in these people's lives, and to just focus on this one thing, it reduces the person, but it also reduces your ability to do something with the person.

所以我在一个成瘾中心工作了两年，这些人的生活中发生了很多其他的事情，而只专注于这一件事，它会削弱这个人，但也会降低你与这个人一起做某事的能力。

It narrows your lens.

它缩小了你的镜头。

So there's always this question about how wide is the lens that you not get overwhelmed.

所以总是有这样一个问题：镜头有多宽才不会被淹没。

So you want to make it smaller, but not that small that you're looking through a keyhole.

所以你想让它变小，但不要小到你通过钥匙孔看到的程度。

A person is more complex than a keyhole.

人比钥匙孔还要复杂。

We don't just treat symptoms.

我们不只是治疗症状。

We work with lives.

我们用生命来工作。

That's the difference, for me anyway, in the work that we do.

无论如何，对我来说，这就是我们所做工作的不同之处。

And then when you begin to think about lives, then you start to think about culture.

然后当你开始思考生活时，你就会开始思考文化。

What is happening in the world of relationships today?

当今的人际关系世界正在发生什么？

It's such an incredible thing that is going on, and if you don't put that in the broader context...

这是一件令人难以置信的事情正在发生，如果你不把它放在更广泛的背景下......

I'm trained as a systemically oriented family therapist, and that means that you're looking at the interaction of different systems.

我接受过以系统为导向的家庭治疗师的培训，这意味着您正在研究不同系统的相互作用。

And I think that a lot of what happens is a hyper-individualization of these things, and the naming is useful when it expands your understanding.

我认为，发生的很多事情都是这些事物的超个性化，而命名在扩展你的理解时很有用。

The naming is not useful when it locks you into a symptom, a reductionistic thing that gives false certainty to prophets.

当命名将你锁定在一种症状中时，它是没有用的，这是一种简化的东西，给先知带来了错误的确定性。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I-

我-

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Now you got a piece of my mind.

现在你明白了我的想法。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

can't agree more, that naming that expands one's understanding and maybe even lends itself to a hint of curiosity-

完全同意，命名可以扩展一个人的理解，甚至可能引发一丝好奇心——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

stands a chance of having some rehabilitative quality to it.

有机会获得一些康复质量。

I feel that nowadays there's such an overuse of psychological terms, like narcissist-

我觉得现在心理学术语用得太多了，比如自恋者——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Yeah, therapy terms

是的，治疗术语

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

gaslighting, therapy terms.

煤气灯操纵，治疗术语。

It's almost the way that if people were to talk about neurobiology as neurosurgeons, right?

如果人们以神经外科医生的身份谈论神经生物学，这几乎就是这样，对吗？

I'm not a neurosurgeon, but I have friends who are, and neurosurgery is something people train for many years for, just as being a-

我不是神经外科医生，但我有朋友是神经外科医生，神经外科是人们训练多年的目标，就像成为——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

clinical psychologist, people train for many years for and have a ton of in-office experience, real-world experience.

临床心理学家，人们经过多年的培训并拥有大量的办公室经验和现实世界的经验。

Nowadays, the naming and the attachment of names to particular top contour features of people out there seems to be largely for the purpose of closing off possibility as opposed to increasing possibility.

如今，对人们的特定顶部轮廓特征进行命名和附加名称似乎主要是为了消除可能性，而不是增加可能性。

However-

然而——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

It's both.

两者都是。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Because on the one hand, more than many other forms of medicine or healthcare or care, psychotherapy, psychology, but certainly psychotherapy, was always stigmatized and still is in many parts of the world.

因为一方面，与许多其他形式的医学或医疗保健或护理相比，心理治疗、心理学，当然还有心理治疗，总是受到污名化，而且在世界许多地方仍然如此。

It's for the crazies.

这是给疯子的。

There must be something fundamentally wrong.

一定有什么根本性的错误。

It's something that nobody went around talking about the fact that they are in therapy.

没有人到处谈论他们正在接受治疗的事实。

You went to see a therapist.

你去看了治疗师。

Now you're putting it on your dating app.

现在您将其放入您的约会应用程序中。

It's a status symbol.

这是一种身份的象征。

So there is a destigmatizing that is very important.

所以去污名化是非常重要的。

But there is also words that are weaponized, and they are not useful And they are separating people.

但也有一些词语被武器化了，它们没有用，而且它们正在分裂人们。

And we have enough separation at this moment in our societies in the West.

此时此刻，在西方社会中，我们已经有足够的分离了。

We don't need more efforts to pull people apart.

我们不需要更多的努力来分裂人们。

We need efforts to bring back the collective, the community, the shared experience, because we are too far apart.

我们需要努力恢复集体、社区、共享经验，因为我们相隔太远。

And that's why I think that some naming is useful and some naming is not always that useful.

这就是为什么我认为有些命名是有用的，而有些命名并不总是那么有用。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, amen to bringing people together more.

好吧，阿门，让人们更多地聚集在一起。

Like, yeah, such an important mission right now.

就像，是的，现在有一个如此重要的任务。

I'd like to explore the possibility of something that I've heard, but I don't know if it's true.

我想探索一下我所听到的事情的可能性，但我不知道它是否属实。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That sex, which of course doesn't just include intercourse, but the things that lead into and out of sexual intercourse, but that sex is a microcosm for the relationship at large.

性，当然不仅仅包括性交，还包括导致性交和性交之外的事情，但性是整个关系的一个缩影。

Meaning that the dynamics that show up in intimate interactions are somehow reflective of a larger working out or dynamic in the relationship.

这意味着亲密互动中出现的动态在某种程度上反映了关系中更大的锻炼或动态。

To what extent do you think that's true?

您认为这在多大程度上是正确的？

It's a concept that I've heard.

这是我听说过的一个概念。

It sounds interesting, and any discussion about sex tends to get people's ears pricked up because- ...

这听起来很有趣，任何关于性的讨论都会让人们竖起耳朵，因为——……

depending on where you live in the world, it's either something that people talk about casually, openly, or with a lot of electricity around it.

取决于你生活在世界的哪个地方，它要么是人们随意、公开谈论的话题，要么是充满电的话题。

But I always like to say, as a biologist, we can all agree on one thing, which is that we're all here because sperm met egg, if not in human, in dish, and then eventually in human.

但我总是想说，作为一名生物学家，我们都可以在一件事上达成一致，那就是我们之所以来到这里，是因为精子遇到了卵子，如果不是在人类中，在培养皿中，然后最终在人类中。

So we're still at that point in human evolution.

所以我们仍然处于人类进化的那个阶段。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So, what are your views about intimacy and sex as a reflection of the relationship?

那么，您对亲密关系和性作为关系的反映有何看法？

And here, what I'm thinking of again are these, when you described conflict, you described these three different positioning of arrows towards one another, away from one another, one chasing the other.

在这里，我再次想到的是这些，当你描述冲突时，你描述了这三种不同的箭头朝向彼此，远离彼此，一个追逐另一个。

Is there a parallel for healthy relationship that we can offer up-

我们可以提供类似的健康关系吗？

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Sexually?

性方面？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Before talking about this question of whether or not sex is a microcosm of the larger relationship, the health of the relationship.

在讨论性是否是更大的关系（关系的健康程度）的缩影这个问题之前。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Let me start like this.

让我这样开始吧。

I've studied sexuality for quite a few decades now in relationships, but I think maybe because of what you said around the world, love and desire are universal experiences, but the way that they are constructed are highly culturally contextual.

我在人际关系中研究性行为已经有几十年了，但我想也许是因为你在世界各地所说的，爱和欲望是普遍的体验，但它们的构建方式具有高度的文化背景。

And so the most archaic, rooted, traditional aspects of a culture or a society are lodged around its beliefs and attitudes and behaviors towards sexuality and relationships, especially the sexuality of women.

因此，一种文化或一个社会最古老、最根深蒂固、传统的方面是围绕其对性和关系的信仰、态度和行为，尤其是女性的性。

American elections, case in point.

美国大选就是一个很好的例子。

But the most radical progressive changes that take place in a society also occur around sexuality and relationships, sexuality of women in particular.

但社会中发生的最根本的进步变化也发生在性和关系方面，特别是女性的性。

So sexuality is a window into a society.

因此，性是了解社会的一个窗口。

Sexuality is also a window into a relationship and into a person that invites deep listening.

性也是了解一段关系和一个人的窗口，需要深入倾听。

One of the big challenges is that modern sexuality has been...

最大的挑战之一是现代性已经......

Traditional sexuality was identified with procreation.

传统的性行为被认为与生育有关。

Modern sexuality is identified with performance and outcome.

现代性行为被认为是表现和结果。

Sex is something you do.

性是你要做的事情。

To which I say, let's drop the performance and outcome for a moment, and let's think of it as an experience.

对此我想说的是，让我们暂时放下性能和结果，而将其视为一种体验。

So now you're going to start to see the choreography I draw.

所以现在你要开始看我画的舞蹈了。

When I think of sexuality as an experience, and I say sex isn't just something that you do, sex is a place you go.

当我将性视为一种体验时，我说性不仅仅是你所做的事情，性是你去的地方。

So my question to you is, where do you go in sex, inside yourself and with another or others?

所以我问你的问题是，在性方面，你会去哪里，在你自己的内心还是与另一个人或其他人？

Do you go to seek deep spiritual union, a deep intimate connection, transcendence?

你去寻求深层的精神结合、深层的亲密联系、超越吗？

Do you go to a place for vulnerability, a place to surrender, a place to be taken care of, a place to be safely powerful, a place to be naughty, a place to have just plain fun, a place to abdicate your responsibilities of good citizenship because sexual desire is quite politically incorrect?

你是否会去一个脆弱的地方、一个投降的地方、一个需要照顾的地方、一个安全强大的地方、一个顽皮的地方、一个纯粹享受乐趣的地方、一个因为性欲在政治上相当不正确而放弃良好公民责任的地方？

Where do you go in sex?

在性方面你会去哪里？

What parts of yourself do you try to connect with?

您尝试与自己的哪些部分建立联系？

What is it that you're expressing there?

你在那里表达的是什么呢？

Sexuality is a coded language for our deepest emotional needs, our wounds, our fears, our aspirations, our longings.

性是我们最深层次的情感需求、我们的创伤、我们的恐惧、我们的渴望、我们的渴望的编码语言。

It's that.

就是这样。

Sex is never just sex, even when it's hit and run.

性永远不仅仅是性，即使是肇事逃逸。

And then it becomes really interesting.

然后它就变得非常有趣。

So one of the assumptions that existed very much at the heart of my field and that I challenged or questioned, was that sexual problems are by definition, the consequence of relationship problems.

因此，我所在领域的核心假设之一是性问题从定义上来说是关系问题的结果，而我对此提出了挑战或质疑。

So you fix the relationship, and the sex will follow.

所以你修复了关系，性就会随之而来。

And I, together with many colleagues, have helped a lot of relationships get along better, fight less, laugh more, enjoy each other, and it changed nothing in the bedroom.

我和许多同事一起帮助很多人际关系相处得更好，少了争吵，多了欢笑，彼此享受，但这并没有改变卧室里的一切。

Because, in fact, maybe sexuality is not a metaphor of the relationship.

因为，事实上，也许性并不是关系的隐喻。

Maybe sexuality is a parallel narrative to the relationship.

也许性是与关系平行的叙述。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

And that, in fact, when you change the sexuality in a couple, you change the whole relationship But not necessarily in the other direction.

事实上，当你改变一对夫妇的性取向时，你就改变了整个关系，但不一定是朝另一个方向改变。

So that was one of the foundational ideas for "Mating in Captivity," my first book, because I have been trained to think like this.

这就是我的第一本书《圈养交配》的基本思想之一，因为我接受过这样的思考训练。

And then I began to think love and desire, they relate, but they also conflict.

然后我开始思考爱和欲望，它们是相关的，但它们也是冲突的。

They're not one and the same, and they don't need the same things.

他们不是同一个人，也不需要相同的东西。

They don't thrive on the same elements.

它们并不依靠相同的元素而茁壮成长。

And modern relationships, romantic relationships, have wanted to reconcile those two fundamental sets of human needs into one relationship.

现代关系，浪漫的关系，希望将人类的这两种基本需求调和成一种关系。

That is the grand experiment of modern love.

这就是现代爱情的伟大实验。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And am I correct in interpreting what you just said as that love and desire are fundamentally separate, that they can exist in parallel, but that any goal of society, much less a couple, to try and unify those as one thing is not going to succeed?

我对你刚才所说的解释是否正确，因为爱和欲望从根本上是分开的，它们可以并行存在，但社会的任何目标，更不用说一对夫妇，试图将它们统一为一件事是不会成功的？

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

No. Not at all.

不，一点也不。

It actually has been remarkably successful.

它实际上非常成功。

The romantic ideal is tenacious.

浪漫的理想是顽强的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Many other philosophies and ideologies of the end of the 19th century have all gone.

19世纪末的许多其他哲学和意识形态都已经消失了。

This one has survived many others, so-

这个已经比其他许多人幸存下来了，所以——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm relieved to hear you say that.

听到你这么说我就放心了。

Yeah

是啊

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

...

...

the romantic...

浪漫的...

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Maybe I grew up on too many, I don't know how many romantic comedies I saw, but I grew up in a home where love, sex, and romance were discussed in very almost ethereal terms.

也许我是看太多的，我不知道我看过多少浪漫喜剧，但我是在一个用几乎空灵的术语讨论爱、性和浪漫的家庭中长大的。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Yeah.

是的。

No, I think that it's a, but it is an experiment.

不，我认为这是一个，但它是一个实验。

It's not something that we have tried throughout history, in human history.

这不是我们在人类历史上尝试过的事情。

So I think that if you ask, an exercise I like to do sometimes, I say divide your page with this line in the middle, up from top to bottom.

所以我认为，如果你问，这是我有时喜欢做的一个练习，我会说用中间的这条线从上到下划分你的页面。

And on the top left, you write, "When I think of love, I think of..." Then go to the other side, and, "When I think of sexuality, I think of..." And then you go back, and you say, "And when I am loved, I feel..." "And when I am desired, I feel..." When I'm wanted.

在左上角，你写下，“当我想到爱时，我想到......”然后走到另一边，“当我想到性时，我想到......”然后你回去，你说，“当我被爱时，我感觉......”“当我被渴望时，我感觉......”当我被需要时。

"And when I love, I feel..." "And when I want or I desire, I feel..." "And when I think about the love between me and my partner," if there is a couple, "And when I think about the sexuality between me and my partner." And then you let people free associate about this.

“当我爱时，我感觉……”“当我想要或渴望时，我感觉……”“当我想到我和我的伴侣之间的爱时，”如果有一对，“当我想到我和我的伴侣之间的性行为时。”然后你让人们自由联想这一点。

And there are words that you find back and forth, and then there are words which just never appear in the other column.

有些单词是你反复找到的，有些单词从来没有出现在另一列中。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Do you recommend that couples exchange these documents?

您建议夫妻交换这些文件吗？

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Yeah, they do it at the same time.

是的，他们同时做。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Then they read it out loud in front of each other.

然后他们在彼此面前大声朗读。

I do it in groups, huge audiences as well.

我以小组的形式进行，也有大量的观众。

But what I'm asking people to see is, when you look at what you responded in both categories, create a line between those two.

但我要求人们看到的是，当你查看你在这两个类别中的回答时，在这两者之间建立一条界限。

Is it a thick line, like what happens in love is completely separate from me than what happens in desire?

这是一条粗线，就像在爱情中发生的事情与在欲望中发生的事情完全分开一样？

I need a complete different set of things.

我需要一套完全不同的东西。

I express myself differently, I interact differently.

我以不同的方式表达自己，以不同的方式互动。

Or is it very much that when this exists, it completely ignites that?

或者当它存在时，它会完全点燃它吗？

They are interrelated, interdependent, one feeds on each other, one reinforces the other.

它们相互关联、相互依存，一者相互促进，一者相互促进。

There is a degree of variety about that.

这方面存在一定程度的差异。

For some people, love and desire are inseparable.

对于有些人来说，爱和欲望是密不可分的。

And for some people, they are often irretrievably disconnected.

对于某些人来说，他们常常无法挽回地脱节。

And I think the model wants them to be really together, and for a lot of people, it's exactly what they aspire to.

我认为这个模特希望他们真正在一起，对于很多人来说，这正是他们所渴望的。

For other people, it's more challenging.

对于其他人来说，这更具挑战性。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because somehow in them, there's a split between these two things.

因为不知何故，在他们身上，这两件事之间存在着分歧。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Because some people experience love in such a way that it sometimes becomes challenging for them to make love to the person they love.

因为有些人体验爱情的方式有时让他们很难与所爱的人做爱。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

What I mean by that is that love comes with a sense of responsibility, worry, care about the well-being of the other person.

我的意思是，爱伴随着责任感、担忧、关心对方的福祉。

And some of us sometimes have learned to love in a way that comes with extra worry, extra responsibility, extra burden.

我们中的一些人有时学会了以一种伴随额外担忧、额外责任、额外负担的方式去爱。

We were the parents of our parents.

我们曾是父母的父母。

We took care of our depressed parent.

我们照顾沮丧的父母。

We took care of our alcoholic parent.

我们照顾酗酒的父母。

We learn to love with a sense that is not free, that is not curious or playful, because curiosity cannot happen in a state of stress, as you so well said.

我们学会用一种不自由、不好奇或好玩的感觉去爱，因为好奇心不可能在压力状态下发生，正如你说得很好的那样。

When we experience love with that extra sense of burden, it is difficult to be with someone that you feel close to, and at the same time go inside yourself and completely chill and relax in pleasure land.

当我们带着额外的负担感体验爱情时，很难与一个你感觉亲近的人在一起，同时又进入自己的内心，在快乐的土地上完全冷静和放松。

That's one of the scenarios.

这是其中一种情况。

There's many others, but this is one of the more common ones, Michael Bader's work, that makes it difficult for some people to experience love and desire at the same time.

还有很多其他的作品，但这是最常见的作品之一，迈克尔·巴德的作品，它让一些人很难同时体验爱和欲望。

The more they love, the more challenging the desire becomes for them, because desire is to own the wanting.

他们爱得越多，欲望对他们来说就越具有挑战性，因为欲望就是拥有想要的东西。

You can't make someone want.

你不能让别人想要。

You can make someone have sex, but you can never make them want.

你可以让某人发生性行为，但你永远无法让他们想要。

Want is your sovereignty, your autonomy, your freedom.

想要的是你的主权、你的自主权、你的自由。

And for some people, that wanting cannot exist when they are with someone that they feel so responsible and worried and anxious about.

对于某些人来说，当他们和一个让他们感到非常负责、担心和焦虑的人在一起时，这种渴望就不可能存在。

And that's the attachment piece that you're talking about.

这就是您所说的附件。

So this is how the attachment style often manifests in the way that you then organize your sexual self.

因此，这就是依恋风格通常在你组织性自我的方式中体现出来的方式。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What percentage of infidelity do you think reflects somebody's inability to integrate this love component from desire component, such that they find that they only experience desire or strong desire outside their-

你认为不忠的比例有多大反映了某人无法将爱的成分与欲望的成分整合起来，以至于他们发现自己只能体验到自己之外的欲望或强烈的欲望——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

committed relationship.

承诺的关系。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Look, I wrote an entire book about-

看，我写了一整本书——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

...

...

infidelity, as in what happens when desire goes looking elsewhere.

不忠，就像当欲望转向别处时会发生的情况。

I think that some people go outside as a response to a lot of discontents in the relationship.

我认为有些人外出是为了回应人际关系中的许多不满。

Loneliness being the first one.

孤独是第一位的。

Neglect, indifference, conflict, rejection, sexual rejection in particular.

忽视、冷漠、冲突、拒绝，尤其是性拒绝。

But some people go outside, and it has very little to do with the relationship.

但有些人出去了，和关系就没有多大关系了。

It sometimes has to do with how they organize themselves in the relationship to the degree that in order to feel a certain freedom or ability to think about themselves, they need to be outside.

有时，这与他们在关系中如何组织自己有关，以至于为了感受到一定的自由或思考自己的能力，他们需要置身事外。

And I used to say, I have seen a lot of infidelity in happy relationships.

我曾经说过，我在幸福的关系中看到过很多不忠的情况。

It's not always a symptom of a flawed relationship, by no means.

这并不总是关系有缺陷的症状。

And that in those situations, people tell me, "It's not that I wanted to find another person, it's that I wanted to find another self or to reconnect with lost parts of myself." And I don't say this to promote or to condone or anything, but I just listened across the globe.

在这种情况下，人们告诉我，“这并不是我想找到另一个人，而是我想找到另一个自我或与自己失去的部分重新建立联系。”我这么说并不是为了宣传或纵容什么，但我只是在全球范围内倾听。

One word, "It's not that I wanted to find another partner, it's that I wanted to find something else inside of me, and I don't know how to do that in the relationship that I'm in.

一句话，“并不是我想找到另一个伴侣，而是我想找到我内心的其他东西，但我不知道在我所处的关系中如何做到这一点。

And that's not because of the person I'm with, that's because of what I do to myself in the context of intimate connection." And the word that you hear all over the globe when you interview people who are in affairs, is that they feel alive.

这并不是因为和我在一起的人，而是因为我在亲密关系中对自己所做的事情。”当你采访那些有外遇的人时，你在世界各地听到的一句话是，他们感觉自己还活着。

It's kind of the erotic as an antidote to deadness.

这有点像色情作为死亡的解药。

They feel that aliveness, and often that doesn't necessarily involve sex.

他们感受到活力，而且往往并不一定涉及性。

It's about something.

这是关于某件事的。

Aliveness is the erotic, not the sexual.

活力是情欲的，而不是性的。

And the erotic is the quality of aliveness, vibrancy, vitality, hopefulness, curiosity, imagination, playfulness.

情欲是一种活力、活力、活力、希望、好奇、想象力、俏皮的品质。

It's those elements that often people lose for a host of reasons.

人们常常因为多种原因而失去这些元素。

Life, work, children, dying parents, illness, economic hardship, you name it.

生活、工作、孩子、垂死的父母、疾病、经济困难，凡是你能想到的。

And there's a sense that they need to go elsewhere to find that.

他们有一种感觉，他们需要去其他地方才能找到这一点。

And some people would say bullshit justification, and some people understand that at the heart of affairs, there is betrayal and duplicity and lying and all of that, but there is also longing and loss on an existential level.

有些人会说胡说八道，有些人明白事情的核心是背叛、口是心非、谎言等等，但也有存在层面上的渴望和失落。

That's a very different lens into this.

这是一个非常不同的视角。

So the people for whom that reconciliation that you talk about is more challenging are often people who are often more likely to compartmentalize.

因此，对于你所说的和解更具挑战性的人来说，往往是那些更容易分裂的人。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What you just said brings me back to this idea that we were exploring at the very beginning of this conversation, that it seems that so much of navigating a relationship in healthy versus unhealthy ways depends on this internal dynamic within ourselves of an ability to be in close intimate relationship with another, and yet hold on to enough of our own identity-

你刚才所说的让我回到了我们在谈话一开始就探讨的这个想法，似乎以健康与不健康的方式处理一段关系很大程度上取决于我们内部的这种内在动力，即与他人保持密切的亲密关系的能力，但同时又坚持足够的我们自己的身份——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and evolve that identity within the relationship to the other.

并在与他人的关系中发展这种身份。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

That is the definition of intimacy, or a definition of intimacy.

这就是亲密的定义，或者说是亲密的定义。

And it is probably the number one task of every relationship, romantic relationships, is how do I get close to you without losing me?

这可能是每一段关系，浪漫关系中的首要任务，就是我如何靠近你而不失去我？

And how do I hold on to me without losing you?

而我怎样才能在不失去你的情况下坚持我自己呢？

Now, I said to you in the beginning that we grow up, and we have both needs, togetherness and separateness.

现在，我一开始就对你说过，我们长大了，我们都有需要，有团聚，也有分离。

And then we come out of our childhoods, and some of us need more space, freedom, separateness, and some of us need more protection, connection, togetherness.

然后我们走出童年，我们中的一些人需要更多的空间、自由、独立，而我们中的一些人需要更多的保护、联系和团结。

Of course, we tend to meet somebody whose proclivities match our vulnerabilities.

当然，我们往往会遇到一些与我们的弱点相匹配的人。

And so you find that in many relationships, you have one person who is more afraid of losing the other, and one person who is more afraid of losing themselves.

于是你发现，在很多关系中，有一个人更害怕失去对方，也有一个人更害怕失去自己。

One person more afraid with the fear of abandonment, and one person more afraid with the fear of suffocation.

一个人更害怕被抛弃，一个人更害怕窒息。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This is a recurring dynamic that you see.

这是您所看到的反复出现的动态。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And does it swap back and forth across couples, male, female?

它会在夫妻、男性、女性之间来回交换吗？

I'm assuming in that example, heterosexual relationship.

我假设在这个例子中是异性关系。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

No, all relationships.

不，所有的关系。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But even homosexual relationships, you'll see it switch back and forth, or it tends to be a pretty stable feature, meaning one person in the couple tends to be afraid of abandonment by the other, the other person more deeply afraid of abandonment of themselves.

但即使是同性恋关系，你也会看到它来回切换，或者它往往是一个相当稳定的特征，这意味着夫妻中的一个人往往害怕被另一个人抛弃，另一个人更害怕被自己抛弃。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Right.

对。

It doesn't switch back and forth.

它不会来回切换。

It switches by relationship, but not within one relationship.

它根据关系而切换，但不在一种关系内切换。

You may have been in different roles with different partners.

您可能与不同的合作伙伴一起担任不同的角色。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Indeed, I have.

确实，我有。

So interesting.

太有趣了。

Again, not because you weren't clear, you were incredibly clear and concise about this, but I think this is such an important concept.

再说一次，不是因为你不清楚，你对此非常清晰和简洁，但我认为这是一个非常重要的概念。

Maybe you'd repeat it for us again just so that people can really drive it into their consciousness and maybe ask themselves the question, are they more afraid of abandonment by the other or abandonment of themselves?

也许你会再为我们重复一遍，这样人们才能真正将其带入自己的意识中，也许会问自己一个问题：他们更害怕被他人抛弃还是被自己抛弃？

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

One of the ways that you sometimes can see this is that In the tour this week, one woman stood up and basically said, "I have recently divorced.

有时你可以看到这一点的方式之一是，在本周的巡演中，一位女士站起来基本上说：“我最近离婚了。

I would like to be able to enter another relationship again." And I said, "Is the issue an issue of trust?

我希望能够再次进入另一种关系。”我说：“这个问题是信任问题吗？

Or is the issue, was there betrayal?

或者问题在于，是否存在背叛？

What's led...

是什么导致了...

" She says, "How do I allow somebody to enter into my life without losing myself?"

”她说，“我怎样才能让别人进入我的生活而不迷失自己？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

So it's in the language.

所以它是在语言中。

It's one person, but this could...

这是一个人，但这可能...

And really, I think it's very important for me, many of these things are not gender specific, nor orientation particular.

事实上，我认为这对我来说非常重要，其中许多事情并不特定于性别，也不特定于取向。

This is human.

这是人类。

But then I answered a little bit with some of this and other things.

但后来我回答了一些这个和其他的事情。

And so then the next question is, how often do you not say what you really think because you want to please, or you want to harmonize, or you want to avoid conflict?

那么下一个问题是，你有多少次因为想要取悦、想要和谐、或者想要避免冲突而不说出你的真实想法？

How often did you then resent the partner who actually stood for their ground?

你有多少次怨恨那些真正坚持自己立场的伙伴？

Because if you're afraid to lose yourself, you're often more the one who stands for your ground.

因为如果你害怕迷失自己，那么你往往更能坚持自己的立场。

You don't give in.

你不屈服。

And if it's rigid, you don't give in at all because you think that every time, even the language, agreeing is giving in, and giving in is losing a part of myself.

如果它是僵化的，你根本不会屈服，因为你认为每一次，即使是语言，同意都是屈服，而屈服就是失去自己的一部分。

It's built in.

它是内置的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

It starts here, and it continues all the way.

它从这里开始，一直持续下去。

Do you know what I'm saying?

你知道我在说什么吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

It's a sequence of things.

这是一系列事情。

You break apart in small, granular pieces, how does it play out for you when you lose yourself?

你会分裂成细小的碎片，当你迷失自我时，你会怎样？

What are the things you do not do that facilitate this dissolution?

你不做哪些事情会促进这种溶解？

And to the other person, when you're afraid, sorry, of losing the other, and when you're afraid of losing yourself, where's your rigidity?

而对于另一个人来说，当你害怕、抱歉、失去对方，当你害怕失去自己时，你的僵化在哪里？

Where is your totalistic thinking?

你的整体思维在哪里？

Where is this lack of flexibility?

哪里缺乏灵活性？

And that may manifest in, "I don't travel to those places." The sentence that indicates that we're dealing with this bigger issue is something sometimes very anodyne.

这可能体现在“我不去那些地方旅行”。表明我们正在处理这个更大问题的句子有时非常镇痛。

"I don't go to those kind of restaurants.

“我不去那种餐馆。

Why shall I go to those kind of places?" And you kind of go on and say, "Why is there such intensity about the restaurant?

我为什么要去那种地方？”你会继续说：“为什么这家餐厅如此紧张？

What are you fighting against, and what are you fighting for, and why are you even fighting?

你在反对什么，你在为什么而战，你为什么而战？

We're talking about going out, supposedly meant to be fun." Now you start rewinding.

我们正在谈论出去，据说是为了好玩。”现在你开始倒带。

What is this statement connected to, that we are going to have...

这个声明与什么有关，我们将......

So now you have conflict meeting identity, meeting connection to another person.

因此，现在您与另一个人的会议身份、会议联系存在冲突。

And it is sleuth work.

这是侦探工作。

It's fantastically engaging and exciting.

这是非常有吸引力和令人兴奋的。

I'm sure when you do scientific research, it's that sleuth work that you say, "This thing doesn't fit at all.

我确信当你进行科学研究时，你会说“这东西根本不合适。

Why do you want me to wear blue shoes?

你为什么要我穿蓝色的鞋子？

Why do you make such a big deal out of the blue shoes?

你为什么对蓝色鞋子这么重视呢？

What are blue shoes for you?" Don't start talking about the shoes, please.

你穿什么蓝色的鞋子？”请不要开始谈论鞋子。

Talk about boundaries.

谈论界限。

But boundaries today is a concept that has become so elused almost.

但如今，边界这个概念几乎已经变得难以捉摸。

So talk about how the preservation of the self now involves not wearing blue shoes.

那么现在谈谈如何保护自我涉及不穿蓝色鞋子。

You get what I'm-

你明白我的意思了——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I do, and my mind keeps flitting back to this parallel construction of these circuits were built in infancy and childhood and adolescence, and what flashed to mind is when we are adolescents and teenagers, there's this fundamental question that we ask that rarely do we ask again later in life.

我确实这么做了，我的思绪不断地回到婴儿期、儿童期和青少年期建立的这些电路的平行结构，而脑海中闪现的是，当我们处于青少年和青少年时期时，我们会问这个基本问题，但在以后的生活中我们很少会再问。

Maybe people do, but the question is, "Who am I?" Teenagers try on a lot of different identities often, and how they dress is one of the ways in which they self-identify.

也许人们会这样做，但问题是“我是谁？”青少年经常尝试许多不同的身份，他们的着装是他们自我认同的方式之一。

Their music.

他们的音乐。

The music we listen to when we're teenagers and young adults is forever stamped into us as some core part of our identity.

我们在青少年和年轻人时听的音乐作为我们身份的核心部分永远烙印在我们身上。

It has an emotional weight that-

它的情感分量是——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Oh, you bet

哦，你打赌

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

music that we arrive to later doesn't, unless it resonates with that early music or recapitulates that rather.

我们后来听到的音乐则不然，除非它与早期的音乐产生共鸣或者重述了这一点。

So in my mind, I'm thinking, I wonder if these circuits that are struggling with holding onto self versus a kind of a playful, curious exploration of new things-

所以在我看来，我在想，我想知道这些正在努力保持自我的回路是否是一种对新事物的有趣、好奇的探索——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

novelty, which is so fundamental to relationship, and they're, as we say as neurobiologists, are really antagonistic, that they're really in a push-pull.

新颖性对于关系来说至关重要，正如我们神经生物学家所说，它们实际上是对立的，它们确实处于推拉状态。

There's so many things that we're discussing today that really feel as if these are circuits that can't be co-active easily, that we're in this internal grappling match.

我们今天讨论的事情太多了，感觉就像这些电路不能轻易地协同工作，我们正处于这场内部的缠斗比赛中。

And what keeps coming to mind-

我脑海中不断浮现出什么——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

But they also need each other.

但他们也需要彼此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

I mean, they-

我的意思是，他们——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

It's like the front axle and the back axle of a vehicle.

就像车辆的前轴和后轴一样。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

You know-

你知道-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You can't exist without both

两者缺一不可

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

...

...

you just made me think of something, because you asked before the thing about the sexuality, and I like the concept of erotic blueprints.

你只是让我想到了一些事情，因为你之前问过有关性的问题，而我喜欢色情蓝图的概念。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Which I work with a lot, and I try to really distill it in this desire bundle course that I'm releasing, because I thought, how can people ask themselves a set of questions?

我经常使用它，我尝试在我发布的欲望捆绑课程中真正提炼它，因为我想，人们如何能问自己一系列问题？

A lot of my work is about finding the good questions that will-

我的很多工作都是寻找好的问题，这些问题将-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

...

...

a good question, just like a portal, right?

这是个好问题，就像门户网站一样，对吧？

And the line on top, which is the answer to your question, is, tell me how you were loved, and I will tell you how you make love.

上面的那一行就是你问题的答案，告诉我你是如何被爱的，我会告诉你你如何做爱。

Not just how you love, but how you make love, meaning that your emotional history is inscribed in the physicality of sex, and it's all about what you asked me in the beginning, identity and change, holding onto oneself, connecting with the other.

不仅是你如何爱，还有你如何做爱，这意味着你的情感历史被铭刻在性的肉体中，这一切都与你一开始问我的问题有关，身份和改变，坚持自己，与他人联系。

Sexuality is the place where this occurs at the most fundamental level.

性是这种情况在最基本层面上发生的地方。

It's to be inside oneself and inside the other at the same time, their universe, not their orifices.

是在自己的内心，同时也在他人的内心，他们的宇宙，而不是他们的孔洞。

That is what is the experience, that temporary oneness that then again opens up as two people.

这就是体验，那种暂时的合一，然后又像两个人一样开放。

So people who struggle with that emotionally, how do I stay connected to me and then to you without these polarities, experience that in sex.

因此，那些在情感上挣扎的人们，如何在没有这些极性的情况下与我保持联系，然后与你保持联系，在性中体验这一点。

And then you ask a set of questions.

然后你问一系列问题。

How did you learn to love and with whom?

你是如何学会去爱以及和谁一起去爱的？

Were you protected by those people who took care of you, or did you have to flee for protection?

你受到那些照顾你的人的保护，还是你必须逃离以寻求保护？

Did they take care of you, or did you take care of them?

是他们照顾你，还是你照顾他们？

Did they hold you, rock you, cuddle you, or did they harm you, or violate you, or shake you?

他们是否抱住你、摇晃你、拥抱你，或者伤害你、侵犯你、摇晃你？

Was it okay to laugh and to cry?

笑和哭都可以吗？

Was it okay to experience pleasure?

体验快乐可以吗？

Was it safe?

安全吗？

A set of questions like that, and this is where people enter their erotic blueprint and get to see that their emotional challenges are directly...

诸如此类的一系列问题，这就是人们进入他们的色情蓝图并看到他们的情感挑战直接......

If you film them, if you watch them making love, you'll understand their emotional challenges.

如果你拍摄他们，如果你观看他们做爱，你就会理解他们的情感挑战。

But then comes the next level, and if you then study their fantasy lives, then you'll understand the depth of their emotional needs-

但接下来就是下一个层次，如果你研究他们的幻想生活，那么你就会了解他们情感需求的深度——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm

毫米

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

...

...

which are brought into their sexuality.

这些都被带入了他们的性欲中。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Fascinating.

令人着迷。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

You get it?

你明白了吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I get it.

我明白了。

I get it.

我得到它。

And it makes me think that this earlier discussion we were having, is sex a microcosm for the larger relationship?

这让我想起我们之前的讨论，性是更大关系的缩影吗？

It sounds to me like the answer is yes, but especially-

在我看来，答案是肯定的，但尤其是——

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

But as a coded language

但作为一种编码语言

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

the relationship to self.

与自我的关系。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There's a lot of information in one's desire template or blueprint about how one was cared for or not cared for.

一个人的愿望模板或蓝图中有很多关于一个人如何被照顾或不被照顾的信息。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Your sexual preferences, your sexual fantasies, are a translation of your deepest emotional needs.

你的性偏好、性幻想是你最深层情感需求的体现。

Not sexual needs, emotional needs.

不是性的需要，是情感的需要。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

My mother used to say, "Tell me about your friends, and I'll tell you who you are." And then I said, "You tell me about you sexually, and I will know a heck of a lot about who you are." But you have to translate.

我妈妈常说：“告诉我你的朋友，我就会告诉你你是谁。”然后我说，“你告诉我关于你的性方面的事情，我就会知道很多关于你是谁的信息。”但你必须翻译。

The problem of sexuality in modern society is the literalness with which we approach it, and in our pornographic society ever more so, to our detriment.

现代社会中性的问题在于我们对待它的字面意义，在我们的色情社会中更是如此，这对我们造成了损害。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

I couldn't agree more.

我完全同意。

And I think that there also seems to be this attempt to directly translate from, well, if somebody had issues with their mother, then they're going to have issues with women as an adult, or if they had issues with their father, they're going to have issues with men as an adult.

我认为似乎也有人试图直接翻译，如果有人与他们的母亲有问题，那么他们成年后就会与女性发生问题，或者如果他们与父亲有问题，他们成年后就会与男性发生问题。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

That's confirmation bias.

这就是确认偏差。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

But in reality, it's the algorithm.

但实际上，这是算法。

No, I mean it's not.

不，我的意思是不是。

It's the algorithm, that these algorithms that are laid down in our neural circuitry earlier, they don't care about male femaleness.

这是算法，这些算法是早些时候在我们的神经回路中制定的，它们不关心男性和女性。

It doesn't change whether or not people are heterosexual or homosexual.

人们是异性恋还是同性恋都不会改变。

That's innate to them, I believe.

我相信这是他们与生俱来的。

I think these are, frankly, biologically driven.

坦率地说，我认为这些都是由生物学驱动的。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But the idea is that our ways of being don't translate directly that way, that these are deeper processes.

但我们的想法是，我们的存在方式不会直接转化为这种方式，这些是更深层次的过程。

So if one had issues, for instance, who's male and heterosexual, but they had issues with their father, they could have the same issues with women as an adult.

因此，如果一个人有问题，例如，谁是男性和异性恋，但他们与父亲有问题，那么作为成年人，他们可能会对女性有同样的问题。

That it could translate, that it's not always mapping male to male, female to female.

它可以翻译，它并不总是将男性映射到男性，将女性映射到女性。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

I have a segment of my podcast, "Where Should We Begin?" that opens the tour, where basically, they talk about how they met, and then they fight about everything all the time.

我的播客中有一个片段，“我们应该从哪里开始？”巡演开始了，基本上，他们谈论他们是如何相遇的，然后他们一直在为所有事情争吵。

And they think that they're fighting.

他们认为他们正在战斗。

This is the line of the show.

这是节目的台词。

They think they're fighting about the closet, the cat litter, and the cat.

他们认为他们是在为衣柜、猫砂和猫而争吵。

What I think they're fighting about is that when she says, "Why didn't you close the closet?" He instantly thinks of his dad, who was this military guy, who told him, and he is basically in a fight saying to her, "You ain't telling me what to do.

我认为他们吵架的原因是当她说：“你为什么不关上衣柜？”他立刻想起了他的父亲，他是一位军人，他告诉了他，他基本上是在战斗中对她说：“你没有告诉我该怎么做。

You ain't the boss of me." So she can never make a request for which he doesn't feel like she's controlling him, and he answers with this fight, and that throws her into the she grew up all alone, took care of her two siblings, mother was gone, et cetera.

你不是我的老板。”所以她永远不能提出他不觉得她在控制他的要求，而他以这场斗争来回应，这让她陷入了她独自长大、照顾她的两个兄弟姐妹、母亲去世等等的境地。

And she hoped her whole life she would finally meet a partner, and she wouldn't feel alone, and there would be somebody to support her.

而她一生都希望自己能最终遇到一个伴侣，这样她就不会感到孤单，有人可以支持她。

And every time he says to her, "You ain't the boss of me.

每次他对她说：“你不是我的老板。

Don't tell me what to do," she says, "Oh, I'm going to be alone for the rest of my life.

不要告诉我该怎么做，”她说，“哦，我将独自度过余生。

Here I am in the worst place that I always wanted to avoid." This is what they're fighting about.

我现在正处于我一直想避免的最糟糕的地方。”这就是他们吵架的原因。

But they're talking about, "Why did you leave the cat closet open?" It's just a metaphor.

但他们谈论的是，“你为什么把猫柜开着？”这只是一个比喻。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Beautiful example.

美丽的例子。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

You know?

你知道吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Beautiful example.

美丽的例子。

It cuts across our preconceived notions that if somebody had a good relationship with their mother, they will have good relationship with women, if they had good relationship with father, with men.

它打破了我们先入为主的观念，即如果一个人与母亲有良好的关系，那么他们就会与女性有良好的关系，如果他们与父亲、男人有良好的关系。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

It's a little bit more subtle and-

这有点微妙，而且——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

...

...

complicated, nuanced than that.

比这更复杂、更微妙。

I think the frameworks are useful, but they are frameworks.

我认为框架很有用，但它们只是框架。

And they're models that help us to think and make sense of things.

它们是帮助我们思考和理解事物的模型。

But it's a little bit like in science, the truth of today is the joke of tomorrow.

但这有点像科学，今天的真相就是明天的笑话。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I hadn't heard that, but that one's going up on X.

我没听说过，但是 X 上有那个。

Repair work is something that is so fundamental to healthy relationships.

修复工作对于健康的人际关系至关重要。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

It connects to what we discussed about apology.

它与我们讨论的道歉有关。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What is your recommendation for how couples think about repair work?

对于夫妻如何看待维修工作，您有何建议？

Let's assume that they're still together, and there's some, at least a hint of a hope to recover the relationship.

让我们假设他们仍然在一起，并且有一些，至少是有迹象表明恢复关系的希望。

Should repair work be framed as in a particular way to facilitate it?

维修工作是否应该以特定的方式进行设计以促进维修工作？

How does one begin?

一个人如何开始？

We've been doing a lot of threes today, so I can imagine mistakes Misunderstandings, and betrayals.

今天我们打了很多三分球，所以我可以想象错误、误解和背叛。

There are mistakes like I accidentally step on somebody's toes, there's misunderstandings, two people thought the same thing, and then there are outright betrayals.

有一些错误，比如我不小心踩到了别人的脚趾，有误会，两个人有同样的想法，然后还有彻底的背叛。

And my understanding from your work is that you've seen many couples, indeed helped many couples, recover from all three of those categories, to the point where they are quite satisfied with their relationship.

我从你的工作中了解到，你已经看到许多夫妇，确实帮助了许多夫妇，从所有这三个类别中恢复过来，直到他们对自己的关系非常满意。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

There's a sequence to this, and it's true in intimate relationships, it's true in friendships.

这是有先后顺序的，在亲密关系中是这样，在友谊中也是如此。

I'm very interested in friendships these days and in friendship therapy, and I do co-founders work.

这些天我对友谊和友谊治疗非常感兴趣，而且我做联合创始人的工作。

There's other dyads that I'm very interested in beyond the romantic unit.

除了浪漫的组合之外，我还对其他二人组合非常感兴趣。

But you said something before that I thought I may come back to, when you said it's about acknowledging that you were wrong.

但你之前说过一些我想我可能会回来的事情，当时你说这是关于承认你错了。

Sometimes you may not have been wrong, but you were hurtful.

有时候，你或许没有错，但你却伤人了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

And rather than get all, "I didn't do anything, I didn't do anything," it doesn't matter.

而不是得到全部，“我什么都没做，我什么都没做”，这并不重要。

What you did, even if you don't think it was anything terrible, seemed to have really upset your partner.

你所做的事情，即使你不认为有什么可怕的，似乎确实让你的伴侣感到不安。

Do you care about that?

你关心这个吗？

Or you want to just kind of stand...

或者你只是想站着...

So, I think the first piece in repair work, and I think, by the way, that repair is not the end of the story.

所以，我认为修复工作的第一部分，顺便说一句，我认为修复并不是故事的结束。

The revival is the end of the story.

复兴是故事的结局。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Much better word.

更好的词。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

The erotic recovery.

性欲恢复。

Erotic in my definition of the word.

我对这个词的定义是色情。

So that's when I say it's not enough to survive.

所以这就是我说生存还不够的时候。

I'm a child of survivors.

我是幸存者的孩子。

I wanted to see people who, how do they continue to live?

我想看看人们如何继续生活？

Not just how do they stay alive.

不仅仅是他们如何生存。

And I think that's a fundamental difference in our lives and in our relationships.

我认为这是我们生活和人际关系中的根本区别。

It's a huge piece of...

这是一块巨大的...

It's really at the heart of my work and of my life.

这确实是我工作和生活的核心。

So every trauma process of nations or of individuals demands the acknowledgment of what happened.

因此，国家或个人的每一次创伤过程都需要承认所发生的事情。

And that acknowledgment involves remorse and guilt for the hurt and the harm that it caused.

这种承认意味着对所造成的伤害及其造成的伤害感到悔恨和内疚。

Even if you don't feel guilty for the act itself and you think the act is justified.

即使您对行为本身并不感到内疚并且您认为该行为是合理的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

The consequences of the act on the other person is where the guilt and the remorse must take place.

该行为对他人造成的后果是必须产生内疚和悔恨的地方。

Without that, there is very little option for repair.

如果没有它，修复的选择就很少。

If I don't feel that you even know what you did to me, you my dad, you my boss, you my political enemy, it's really at the root.

如果我不觉得你甚至不知道你对我做了什么，你是我的父亲，你是我的老板，你是我的政治敌人，那么这真的是根源。

So after you do the remorse and the guilt, the next part is to be really careful that you don't sink into the self, now I'm going back to relationships, into the shame.

因此，在你感到悔恨和内疚之后，下一步就是要非常小心，不要陷入自我，现在我要回到人际关系，陷入羞耻。

"I'm such a terrible person, how could I do something like this?

“我这个人真是太糟糕了，怎么能做出这样的事呢？

So I feel so bad about myself that I still can't feel bad about you." Now, that's narcissism.

所以我对自己感觉很糟糕，但我仍然不能对你感到难过。”现在，这就是自恋。

That's a different story.

那是一个不同的故事。

The point is not for you to still think that you're at the center.

重点不在于你仍然认为自己处于中心位置。

You were at the center when you hurt, and now you're at the center of your own wound.

当你受伤时，你就在中心，而现在，你就在自己伤口的中心。

It's really a process of reckoning with the other person.

这其实就是一个和对方算账的过程。

And it's slow, challenging for some, and it's immediate for others.

对于某些人来说，这是缓慢的、具有挑战性的，而对于另一些人来说，这是立竿见影的。

And then I think the next piece in a relationship is not just to apologize and to show your remorse, but it's actually to show that you value the other person.

然后我认为关系中的下一步不仅仅是道歉和表达你的悔恨，而是实际上表明你重视对方。

Because hurting a person, and especially when it's betrayal and careless, is a devaluation of the other person.

因为伤害一个人，尤其是在背叛和粗心的情况下，是对另一个人的贬低。

You didn't matter.

你没有关系。

Me mattered more than you.

我比你更重要。

For whatever the reasons, it was still selfish, and I devalued you.

不管出于什么原因，这仍然是自私的，我贬低了你。

And to become the vigilante of a relationship is that you become the person who protects the relationship by showing that the other person really matters.

成为一段关系的维护者，就是你成为保护这段关系的人，表明对方确实很重要。

And in detail, that sometimes means, "How are you today?

详细来说，有时这意味着，“你今天怎么样？

Is there anything you want to talk about?

您有什么想谈的吗？

Do you still think about it?

你还在想吗？

This is a big one to carry every day.

这是一个每天都要携带的大东西。

Are you able to go to see this movie?" Just without being so afraid that every time you ask, you're going to get blamed again, or you're going to feel so bad about yourself.

你能去看这部电影吗？”只是不要害怕每次你问的时候，你都会再次受到责备，或者你会对自己感觉很糟糕。

It's a little bit step out of yourself and just reach out and just check in.

您只需走出自己一步，伸出手来登记即可。

Half the time when you say, "How are you and do you want to talk?" The person says, "No, I don't, but I just wanted to know that you are prepared to, if case I needed to." Set the conditions.

有一半的时间你会说：“你好吗？想谈谈吗？”那个人说：“不，我不知道，但我只是想知道，如果我需要的话，你是否做好了准备。”设定条件。

Make me feel that you value me and our relationship, which you have just trashed.

让我觉得你重视我和我们的关系，而你刚刚毁掉了我们的关系。

And then the third thing is what I call the erotic recovery.

第三件事就是我所说的性欲恢复。

It's the regeneration or the generation of new cells.

这是新细胞的再生或产生。

And I need a new skin to come over the scab.

我需要一块新皮来覆盖痂。

Repair is not yet healing.

修复尚未愈合。

The healing is, I know I hurt myself somewhere.

治愈的方法是，我知道我在某个地方伤害了自己。

It's here.

就在这里。

I can feel it when I touch it, but I don't feel it the whole time.

当我触摸它时我能感觉到它，但我一直感觉不到它。

It's not front and center every moment of my obsessive rumination.

它并不是我沉思的每时每刻的首要和中心。

But when I touch it, it's tender, it's wounded.

但当我触摸它时，它很嫩，很受伤。

It's a place that I need to make sure not to hit again, and don't hurt me again, and don't do this to me again.

这是一个我需要确保不要再击中、不要再伤害我、不要再这样对我的地方。

I can't recover from that twice.

两次我都无法恢复过来。

It's that vulnerable.

就是这么脆弱。

And then it says, "Let's go do new things." Erotic recovery is not about comfortable and familiar and a return to the status quo.

然后它说：“让我们去做新的事情吧。”性欲恢复并不是舒适和熟悉以及回到现状。

Erotic recovery is about new, risky, curious, playful, unknown imagination outside of the comfort zone, so that we can see ourselves anew.

性欲恢复是关于舒适区之外的新的、冒险的、好奇的、有趣的、未知的想象，这样我们才能重新看到自己。

As who we are and who we are together.

正如我们是谁以及我们在一起的样子。

And I think that's where the revival takes place.

我认为这就是复兴发生的地方。

It's hopeful, it's possibility, it's adventure.

这是希望，这是可能性，这是冒险。

It's got that energy.

它有这样的能量。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Beautiful, aspirational, and realistic too.

美丽，有抱负，也很现实。

This notion of, not notion, forgive me, this act of truly getting outside of oneself to be present to the way the other person feels, irrespective of who was right or who was wrong, if it was a misunderstanding, betrayal, but especially in cases of betrayal.

这种观念，而不是观念，请原谅我，这种真正走出自我去感受他人感受的行为，无论谁对谁错，如果这是误解、背叛，但尤其是在背叛的情况下。

The exiting of, as you said, either a stance of not wanting to look at it for oneself or of self-flagellation.

正如你所说，退出的要么是不想亲自审视它的立场，要么是自虐的立场。

Both are self-centered.

两者都是以自我为中心的。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So really getting into genuine care for, if not caretaking, or the offer of care for the other person.

因此，要真正真正地关心他人，即使不是照顾他人，或者为他人提供照顾。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

I can't believe I hurt you that bad.

我不敢相信我伤害了你那么深。

One of the big things is people are often shocked at the hurt of the, "I thought you wouldn't care about," or, "I thought," or, "I didn't think about it.

其中一件大事是，人们常常对“我以为你不会关心”、“我以为”或“我没想到”所受到的伤害感到震惊。

I just didn't..." Because there is a dissociation that takes place when you take off.

我只是没有……”因为当你起飞时就会发生分离。

And so when people are faced with the raw hurt, wound, suffering, collapse, fracture of the other person, they find it very hard to tolerate.

因此，当人们面对对方的原始伤害、伤口、痛苦、崩溃、骨折时，他们会发现很难容忍。

And this has to happen.

这必须发生。

You have to be able to know the consequences of your action.

你必须能够知道你的行为的后果。

If you want freedom in the existentialist Sartrean terms involve the ability to take responsibility for the consequence of your actions.

如果你想要存在主义萨特式的自由，就需要有能力为自己的行为后果承担责任。

This is it.

就是这样。

I'll help you face that.

我会帮你面对这个。

That doesn't mean that you become the worst creature on the planet, but you have to face that.

这并不意味着你成为地球上最糟糕的生物，但你必须面对这一点。

And that is something very hard for us because sometimes we meant it, sometimes we thought we deserve it, and sometimes we didn't think that that was going to be the case.

这对我们来说非常困难，因为有时我们是认真的，有时我们认为我们应得的，有时我们认为情况并非如此。

And so it's sometimes easier to stand in front of someone else's anger than someone else's hurt.

因此，有时，面对别人的愤怒比面对别人的伤害更容易。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, absolutely.

是的，绝对是。

And what you're describing also perhaps at least partially explains why sometimes, not always, apologies are insufficient, necessary, but not sufficient, because there are certain modes of apology that don't show us that the person who's apologizing is really outside themselves.

你所描述的也许至少部分解释了为什么有时（并非总是）道歉是不充分的、必要的，但又不够充分，因为某些道歉模式并没有向我们表明道歉的人真的是在他们自己之外。

They're in their own guilt, they're in their own shame, and therefore they're not really present to how we feel.

他们处于自己的内疚之中，处于自己的羞耻之中，因此他们并没有真正感受到我们的感受。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

No, no. There's a beautiful book by Harriet Lerner about apology that I often recommend in these situations because she really analyzes.

不，不。哈里特·勒纳（Harriet Lerner）写了一本关于道歉的好书，我经常在这些情况下推荐这本书，因为她确实进行了分析。

If you ever do apology, this concept of sincerity of the apology that actually shows that I care about you and not just about restoring my dignity and my pride and all of that.

如果你道歉，这种道歉诚意的概念实际上表明我关心你，而不仅仅是恢复我的尊严和骄傲等等。

The maneuvers that are about self-preservation versus the maneuvers that are really about restorative justice.

与自我保护有关的策略与真正与恢复性正义有关的策略。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Who is ready for relationship?

谁准备好建立关系？

And for people who are not in relationship or who are, what sorts of questions should they be asking themselves?

对于没有恋爱关系或已经恋爱的人来说，他们应该问自己什么样的问题？

What sorts of things should we all be doing?

我们都应该做哪些事情？

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

You know what's a question that I ask people often, almost in the first session?

你知道我经常问人们的问题是什么吗？几乎是在第一次会议时？

Knowing yourself as well as you do, what do you think makes it hard to live with you?

你很了解你自己，你认为是什么让你很难和你一起生活？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Great question.

很好的问题。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

It's a question.

这是一个问题。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

My answer's far too long to give here.

我的答案太长了，无法在这里给出。

Everyone will be relieved.

大家都会松一口气。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

But that will give you some of the material about who...

但这会给你一些关于谁的材料......

Nobody's ready, as in, "I'm prepared, I'm perfect, I'm fully baked." I say to every person, everyone has relationship issues they're going to have to address at some point in their life.

没有人准备好，就像“我准备好了，我很完美，我已经完全成熟了”。我对每个人说，每个人都有他们在生命中的某个时刻必须解决的人际关系问题。

The only question is with whom.

唯一的问题是和谁一起。

Not if, just with whom.

不在于是否，而在于与谁。

Who's the one that you're going to do the work with?

你要和谁一起做这项工作？

We're all works in progress.

我们的工作都在进行中。

We are notoriously imperfect, rather unpredictable.

众所周知，我们是不完美的，而且难以预测。

And many relationship problems are not problems that you solve.

而且很多人际关系问题并不是你能解决的。

They're paradoxes that you have to learn to manage.

它们是你必须学会​​管理的悖论。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, I want to make clear that, before what I say next, that if I had my way, we would continue this conversation for many hours, if not days.

好吧，我想澄清的是，在我接下来说之前，如果我按照自己的方式行事，我们将继续这个对话几个小时，甚至几天。

Perhaps there's an opportunity for that in the future.

也许未来有这样的机会。

But I was told, and not surprisingly, that you're in tremendous demand.

但我被告知，毫不奇怪，你的需求量很大。

You're on a live tour now.

您现在正在进行现场巡演。

I can't wait to see this.

我等不及要看这个了。

It's all sold out, so I'll have to wait like everyone else.

都卖完了，所以我得像其他人一样等待。

But it sounds like an incredible experience indeed.

但这听起来确实是一次令人难以置信的经历。

I know some people, and I've spoken directly to them, who attended one of your lives recently, and they sound like a completely immersive and experience like no other.

我认识一些人，我直接和他们交谈过，他们最近参加了你们的一场生活，他们听起来像是一种完全身临其境的体验，与众不同。

So I'm very excited about that.

所以我对此感到非常兴奋。

My only regret about your tour is that we have to halt this conversation in the next couple of minutes.

我对你的旅行唯一的遗憾是我们必须在接下来的几分钟内停止这次谈话。

And there are a couple of things I just want to reflect back to you that are all from a place of real deep appreciation.

我只想向你们反映一些事情，这些事情都是出于真正的深深的感激之情。

First of all, for bringing forward what you've brought today.

首先，感谢您提出今天带来的内容。

You're one of these exceedingly rare people with whom, when they speak, gems just fall out of them.

你是极其罕见的人之一，当他们与你交谈时，宝石就会从他们身上掉下来。

And I know I'm not alone in this sentiment.

我知道我并不是唯一有这种想法的人。

Just in today's conversation, you've transformed the way that I think about relationship, self, identity, neurobiology, love, sex, so many key topics.

就在今天的谈话中，你改变了我对关系、自我、身份、神经生物学、爱情、性以及许多关键话题的思考方式。

And in a much larger way, as you pointed out, and I completely agree, the themes that you're talking about are not just fundamental for us to resolve as individuals.

从更大的角度来看，正如您所指出的，我完全同意，您所谈论的主题不仅仅是我们作为个人需要解决的根本问题。

They are not just fundamental for us to resolve in couples or whatever relationship configuration people happen to be in.

它们不仅仅是我们在夫妻或人们碰巧处于的任何关系配置中解决的基础。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

They're societal.

他们是社会性的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They're societal.

他们是社会性的。

That we can look at anything, an election, two countries battling one another, political groups, whatever.

我们可以看待任何事情，一次选举，两个相互争斗的国家，政治团体，等等。

At every level, this is what it means to be human, built up from the same fundamental circuit, same fundamental dynamics, and I really see you as Not just a pioneer, but the pioneer of this parting of the veil from what has, I think until this point in human history, been a lot of descriptions of things of what's right, what's wrong, this and that, and some of that might be true.

在每一个层面上，这就是人类的意义，建立在相同的基本回路、相同的基本动力之上，我真的认为你不仅是一个先驱，而且是揭开面纱的先驱，我认为直到人类历史的这一点，一直有很多关于什么是对的、什么是错的、这个和那个的描述，其中一些可能是真的。

I don't know.

我不知道。

I'm not qualified to know.

我没有资格知道。

But that you represent a real parting of the veil into the next evolution of what it means for humans to interact in more healthy ways and with curiosity and sense of invitation toward more love, connection, and peace.

但你代表着面纱的真正揭开，进入了下一个演变，这意味着人类以更健康的方式、带着好奇心和邀请感进行互动，获得更多的爱、联系与和平。

So, there really aren't words to express how enthusiastic and appreciative I am of what you brought here today and what you're doing, and so I just want to say a deep, heartfelt thanks.

所以，我真的无法用语言来表达我对你们今天带来的东西和你们所做的事情是多么的热情和感激，所以我只想说一声深深的、衷心的感谢。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Thank you.

谢谢你。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I know I speak for many, many people.

我知道我代表很多很多人。

Esther Perel:

埃丝特·佩雷尔：

Thank you so much.

非常感谢。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Thank you for joining me for today's discussion about romantic relationships with Esther Perel.

感谢您今天与我一起讨论与埃丝特·佩雷尔的浪漫关系。

To find links to Esther's new course on intimacy, as well as links to her books, her podcast, and other resources, please see the show note captions.

要查找 Esther 关于亲密关系的新课程的链接，以及她的书籍、播客和其他资源的链接，请参阅节目注释标题。

If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.

如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。

That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.

这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。

In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify and Apple, and on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.

另外，请在 Spotify 和 Apple 上订阅该播客，在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们留下五星级的评论。

Please check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.

请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。

That's the best way to support this podcast.

这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。

If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast, or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab Podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.

如果您对我有疑问或对播客有意见，或者您希望我在胡伯曼实验室播客中考虑嘉宾或主题，请将这些内容放入 YouTube 的评论部分。

I do read all the comments.

我确实阅读了所有评论。

For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.

对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。

It's my very first book.

这是我的第一本书。

It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.

它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这本书是我花了五年多时间编写的，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验。

And it covers protocols for everything from sleep, to exercise, to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.

它涵盖了从睡眠、锻炼、压力控制、与注意力和动机相关的各个方面的协议，当然，我还为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。

The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.

该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。

There you can find links to various vendors.

在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。

You can pick the one that you like best.

您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。

Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." If you're not already following me on social media, I am hubermanlab on all social media platforms.

同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 hubermanlab。

So that's Instagram, X formerly known as Twitter, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.

这就是 Instagram、X（以前称为 Twitter、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn）。

And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab Podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content on the Huberman Lab Podcast.

在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容不同。

Again, that's hubermanlab on all social media channels.

同样，这是所有社交媒体渠道上的 hubermanlab。

If you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, our Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as protocols in the form of brief one- to three-page PDFs.

如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络新闻通讯，我们的神经网络新闻通讯是一份零成本的每月新闻通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及简短的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议。

Those protocol PDFs are on things like neuroplasticity and learning, optimizing dopamine, improving your sleep, deliberate cold exposure, deliberate heat exposure.

这些 PDF 协议涉及神经可塑性和学习、优化多巴胺、改善睡眠、刻意冷暴露、刻意热暴露等内容。

We have a foundational fitness protocol that describes a template routine that includes cardiovascular training and resistance training with sets and reps, all backed by science, and all of which, again, is completely zero cost.

我们有一个基本的健身协议，描述了一个模板程序，其中包括心血管训练和阻力训练（包括组数和次数），所有这些都有科学支持，而且所有这些都是完全零成本的。

To subscribe, simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu tab up in the upper right corner, scroll down to newsletter, and provide your email, and I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.

要订阅，只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的菜单选项卡，向下滚动到时事通讯，然后提供您的电子邮件，我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。

Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Esther Perel.

再次感谢您参加今天与 Esther Perel 的讨论。

And last, but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

最后但同样重要的是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。