Essentials: Use Sleep to Enhance Learning, Memory & Emotional State | Dr. Gina Poe
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials, where we revisit past episodes for the most potent and actionable science-based tools for mental health, physical health, and performance.
欢迎来到 Huberman Lab Essentials，在这里我们回顾过去的剧集，寻找针对心理健康、身体健康和表现的最有效、最可操作的基于科学的工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Gina Poe.
现在我与吉娜·坡博士进行讨论。
Dr. Gina Poe, welcome.
吉娜·坡博士，欢迎光临。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
I've really been looking forward to this conversation.
我真的很期待这次谈话。
I know that many people are going to be excited to learn about your work as it relates to sleep, as it relates to problem-solving, creativity, and a number of other important topics.
我知道很多人会很高兴了解你的工作，因为它与睡眠有关，因为它与解决问题、创造力和许多其他重要主题有关。
To start things off, I would love for you to educate us a bit about this thing that we are all familiar with and yet very few of us understand, which is sleep.
首先，我希望您能向我们介绍一下这个我们都很熟悉但很少有人理解的东西，那就是睡眠。
Could you describe the various phases of sleep that exist, what distinguish them, and perhaps frame this within the context of what would a perfect night's sleep look like?
您能否描述一下存在的各个睡眠阶段，它们的区别是什么，也许可以在完美的夜间睡眠是什么样子的背景下对此进行阐述？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All right.
好吧。
So sleep is really different from wakefulness and, in fact, can't be replaced by any state of wakefulness that we've been able to come up with so far.
因此，睡眠与清醒确实不同，事实上，睡眠不能被我们迄今为止所能想到的任何清醒状态所取代。
Our brain chemistry is completely different, and in the different stages of sleep, which there are non-REM and REM, are the two major states of sleep.
我们的大脑化学物质完全不同，在睡眠的不同阶段，有非快速眼动和快速眼动，是睡眠的两种主要状态。
Those two states are entirely different from one another, too, and even within non-REM, there are three states.
这两种状态也完全不同，即使在非快速眼动睡眠中，也存在三种状态。
Stage one, which is what you slip into when you're first falling asleep.
第一阶段，这是您第一次入睡时进入的阶段。
It's dozing.
正在打瞌睡。
There's kind of an interesting rhythm that goes on in the brain.
大脑中有一种有趣的节奏。
It's kind of a fast gamma rhythm.
这是一种快速的伽玛节奏。
And then there's stage two, which is a really cool state.
然后是第二阶段，这是一个非常酷的状态。
We sort of used to ignore, sleep researchers, because it was a transient state between wakefulness and the deep stage three slow-wave sleep, which is the most impressively different, which is when big slow waves sweep through our brain, and now we realize that it cleans our brain.
我们过去常常忽视睡眠研究人员，因为它是清醒和深度第三阶段慢波睡眠之间的短暂状态，这是最令人印象深刻的不同，即当大的慢波席卷我们的大脑时，现在我们意识到它可以清洁我们的大脑。
One of the things that those big slow waves do is cleans our brain and does other really important things to restore us from a day of wakefulness.
这些大的慢波的作用之一是清洁我们的大脑，并做其他真正重要的事情，让我们从一天的清醒中恢复过来。
And then REM sleep, which is the most popular because that's where we have the most active dreams.
然后是最受欢迎的快速眼动睡眠，因为这是我们做梦最活跃的阶段。
When you wake up someone out of REM sleep, they'll almost always report having dreamed something really bizarre.
当你把某人从快速眼动睡眠中叫醒时，他们几乎总是会说梦到了一些非常奇怪的东西。
That's called REM sleep, rapid eye movement sleep.
这就是所谓的快速眼动睡眠，即快速眼动睡眠。
So those are the four states of sleep, of human sleep, and we cycle through them every 90 minutes or so.
这就是人类睡眠的四种睡眠状态，我们每 90 分钟左右就会循环一次。
And then we start over again, and we have about five of those per night for a perfect night's sleep.
然后我们重新开始，每晚我们大约有五个这样的睡眠，以获得完美的睡眠。
Four or five, something like that.
四五个，类似的东西。
So a perfect night's sleep is seven and a half, eight hours.
因此，一个完美的睡眠时间是七个半小时、八个小时。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
And what about the sleep where we are lightly asleep-
那么我们浅睡时的睡眠呢——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
...
...
and we might have a dream that has us somehow thinking about movement or that we jolt ourselves awake.
我们可能会做一个梦，让我们以某种方式思考运动，或者让我们把自己惊醒。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
That often happens early in the night, right?
这种事经常发生在深夜，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
That's the first stage, stage one and stage two of sleep, and stage two sleep is really cool because that has something called sleep spindles and K complexes.
这是睡眠的第一阶段，第一阶段和第二阶段，第二阶段睡眠真的很酷，因为它有一种叫做睡眠纺锤波和 K 复合体的东西。
And what sleep spindles are, are a little brr of activity that's 10 to 15 hertz in frequency.
睡眠纺锤波是指频率为 10 到 15 赫兹的少量活动。
It's a conversation between the thalamus and the cortex.
这是丘脑和皮质之间的对话。
The thalamus is the gateway to consciousness, and the neocortex processes all our cognition.
丘脑是通往意识的门户，新皮质处理我们所有的认知。
And if you wake up out of that state, you will often report a dream, like a hallucination-style dream.
如果你从这种状态中醒来，你经常会报告一个梦，就像一个幻觉式的梦。
It won't be a long dream report, like you have out of REM sleep, but it will be some hallucination state.
这不会是一个很长的梦报告，就像你从快速眼动睡眠中醒来一样，但它会是某种幻觉状态。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
Are they quite different than the patterns of sleep and dreaming that occur later in the night or toward morning?
它们与深夜或早晨发生的睡眠和做梦的模式有很大不同吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There is some evidence that the first four hours of sleep are very important for memory processing.
有证据表明，前四个小时的睡眠对于记忆处理非常重要。
And in fact, if you've learned something new that day or have experienced a new sensorimotor experience, then your early sleep dreams will incorporate that experience much more than the later sleep dreams.
事实上，如果你那天学到了新的东西或者经历了新的感觉运动体验，那么你早期的睡眠梦将比后来的睡眠梦更多地融入这种体验。
Later, as that memory gets consolidated from the early structures, which are the hippocampus deep in the temporal lobe to the cortex in a distributed fashion, that memory seems to move from that hippocampus to the cortex, and also the dreams that incorporate that memory also move later in the night.
后来，随着该记忆从早期结构（即颞叶深处的海马体）以分布式方式巩固到皮层，该记忆似乎从海马体转移到皮层，并且包含该记忆的梦也在晚上晚些时候转移。
So there was a great study by Sidarta Ribeiro, who studied the consolidation of memories from the hippocampus to the cortex in a rat across the period of a full day's sleep, because rats sleep in the daytime.
因此，西达塔·里贝罗（Sidarta Ribeiro）进行了一项伟大的研究，他研究了老鼠在一整天睡眠期间从海马体到皮质的记忆巩固情况，因为老鼠在白天睡觉。
And he found that each subsequent REM sleep period moved that memory from the hippocampus to the first area that projects to it, and then the second area, and then the third area, and you can see the memory moving throughout the sleep.
他发现，随后的每个快速眼动睡眠周期都会将记忆从海马体转移到投射到它的第一个区域，然后是第二个区域，然后是第三个区域，你可以看到记忆在整个睡眠过程中移动。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
There's a number of different hormones associated with the different stages of sleep.
有许多不同的激素与不同的睡眠阶段相关。
We know that melatonin is a hormone that-
我们知道褪黑激素是一种激素——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Of nighttime
夜间的
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
...
...
of nighttime that makes us sleepy.
夜晚让我们昏昏欲睡。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
What about growth hormone release?
生长激素释放情况如何？
When does that occur during sleep?
睡眠时什么时候会出现这种情况？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So growth hormone release happens all day long and all night long, but the deep slow-wave sleep that you get the very first sleep cycle is when you get a big bolus of growth hormone release, and in men and women equally.
因此，生长激素的释放全天整夜都会发生，但第一个睡眠周期的深度慢波睡眠是在您获得大量生长激素释放时进行的，男性和女性的情况相同。
And if you miss that first deep slow-wave sleep period, you also miss that big bolus of growth hormone release.
如果你错过了第一个深度慢波睡眠期，你也会错过大量生长激素的释放。
And you might get ultimately, across the day, just as much overall growth hormone release, but endocrinologists will tell you that big boluses do different things than a little bit eked out over time.
最终，您可能会在一天内释放出同样多的生长激素，但内分泌学家会告诉您，随着时间的推移，大剂量注射与少量注射会产生不同的效果。
There's also a big push to synthesize proteins.
蛋白质的合成也得到了大力推动。
So that's when the protein synthesis part that builds memories, for example, in our brain, happens in that first cycle of sleep.
因此，这就是在我们的大脑中建立记忆的蛋白质合成部分发生在第一个睡眠周期中的时候。
So you don't want to miss that, especially if you've learned something really big and needs more synaptic space to encode it.
所以你不想错过这一点，特别是如果你已经学到了一些非常大的东西并且需要更多的突触空间来编码它。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
How would somebody miss that first 90 minutes?
有人怎么会错过前 90 分钟呢？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sleep depriving themselves.
剥夺自己的睡眠。
Yeah, so you can-
是的，所以你可以-
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
So let's say I normally go to sleep at 10:00 PM.
假设我通常在晚上 10:00 睡觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
And then from 10:00 to 11:30 would be this first phase of sleep, and that's when the big bolus of growth hormone would be released.
然后从 10:00 到 11:30 将是睡眠的第一阶段，此时会释放大量生长激素。
Does that mean that if I go to sleep instead at 11:30 or midnight, that I miss that first phase of sleep?
这是否意味着如果我在 11:30 或午夜睡觉，我就会错过第一阶段的睡眠？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
Why is it not the case that I get that first phase of sleep Just simply starting later.
为什么我没有得到第一阶段的睡眠只是稍后开始。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Every cell in our body has a clock, and all those circadian clocks are synchronized, and so our cells are ready to respond to that growth hormone release at a particular time.
我们体内的每个细胞都有一个时钟，所有这些生物钟都是同步的，因此我们的细胞已准备好对特定时间释放的生长激素做出反应。
And if we miss it, and it's a time in relation to melatonin also, so if you miss it, yeah, you might get some growth hormone release, but it's occurring at a time when your clock has already moved to the next phase.
如果我们错过了，这也是与褪黑激素有关的时间，所以如果你错过了，是的，你可能会释放一些生长激素，但它发生在你的生物钟已经进入下一阶段的时候。
And so it's just a clock thing.
所以这只是一个时钟的事情。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
So what this means is that we should have fairly consistent bedtimes-
所以这意味着我们应该有相当一致的就寝时间-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes
是的
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
...
...
in addition to fairly consistent wake times.
除了相当一致的唤醒时间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes.
是的。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Exactly.
正是如此。
And in fact, one of the best markers of good neurological health when we get older is consistent bedtimes.
事实上，当我们变老时，神经系统健康的最佳标志之一就是保持一致的就寝时间。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, LMNT.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 LMNT。
LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.
LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。
That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium in the correct amounts, but no sugar.
这意味着电解质、钠、镁和钾的含量正确，但不含糖。
Proper hydration is critical for optimal brain and body function.
适当的水合作用对于大脑和身体的最佳功能至关重要。
Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish cognitive and physical performance.
即使是轻微程度的脱水也会降低认知和身体表现。
It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes.
获得充足的电解质也很重要。
The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are vital for functioning of all the cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells.
电解质（钠、镁和钾）对于体内所有细胞（尤其是神经元或神经细胞）的功能至关重要。
Drinking LMNT dissolved in water makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes.
饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT 可以很容易地确保您获得足够的水分和电解质。
To make sure that I'm getting proper amounts of hydration and electrolytes, I dissolve one packet of LMNT in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I first wake up in the morning, and I drink that basically first thing in the morning.
为了确保我获得适量的水合作用和电解质，当我早上第一次醒来时，我将一包 LMNT 溶解在大约 16 至 32 盎司的水中，并且我基本上早上第一件事就是喝它。
I'll also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes.
我还会在进行任何体育锻炼时饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT，尤其是在炎热的日子里，当我大量出汗并失去水和电解质时。
LMNT has a bunch of great-tasting flavors.
LMNT 有很多美味的口味。
I love the raspberry.
我喜欢覆盆子。
I love the citrus flavor.
我喜欢柑橘味。
Right now, LMNT has a limited edition lemonade flavor that is absolutely delicious.
现在LMNT推出了限量版柠檬水口味，绝对美味。
I hate to say that I love one more than all the others, but this lemonade flavor is right up there with my favorite other one, which is raspberry or watermelon.
我不想说我比其他所有口味都更喜欢其中一种，但这种柠檬水口味与我最喜欢的另一种口味（覆盆子或西瓜）不相上下。
Again, I can't pick just one flavor.
再说一次，我不能只选择一种口味。
I love them all.
我爱他们所有人。
If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman, spelled drinklmnt.com/huberman, to claim a free LMNT sample pack with a purchase of any LMNT drink mix.
如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman（拼写为 Drinklmnt.com/huberman），购买任意 LMNT 混合饮料即可领取免费 LMNT 样品包。
Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.
再次强调，请访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman 索取免费样品包。
What other things inhibit growth hormone release or other components of this first stage of sleep?
还有哪些因素会抑制生长激素的释放或第一阶段睡眠的其他成分？
Are there things that I perhaps do in the preceding hours or the preceding day, like ingest caffeine or alcohol, that can make that first stage of sleep less effective, even if I'm going to sleep at the same time?
我在前几个小时或前一天所做的事情（例如摄入咖啡因或酒精）是否会降低第一阶段睡眠的效果，即使我要在同一时间睡觉？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Alcohol definitely will do that because alcohol is a REM sleep suppressant, and it even suppresses some of that stage two transition to REM with those sleep spindles.
酒精肯定会做到这一点，因为酒精是一种快速眼动睡眠抑制剂，它甚至会抑制睡眠纺锤波向快速眼动睡眠第二阶段的过渡。
And those sleep spindles, we didn't talk about their function yet, but they're really important for moving memories to our cortex.
至于那些睡眠纺锤波，我们还没有讨论它们的功能，但它们对于将记忆转移到我们的皮质非常重要。
It's a unique time when our hippocampus, the sort of like the RAM of our brains, writes it to a hard disk, which is the cortex, and it's a unique time when they're connected.
这是一个独特的时刻，我们的海马体（有点像我们大脑的 RAM）将其写入硬盘（即皮质），这是它们连接的独特时刻。
So if you don't want to miss that, you don't want to miss REM sleep, which is also a part of the consolidation process, and alcohol before we go to sleep will do that.
所以，如果你不想错过这个，你也不想错过快速眼动睡眠，这也是巩固过程的一部分，而我们睡觉前喝点酒就能做到这一点。
Until we've metabolized alcohol and put it out of our bodies, it will affect our sleep badly.
在我们代谢掉酒精并将其排出体外之前，它会严重影响我们的睡眠。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
What about the second and third 90-minute blocks of sleep?
那么第二个和第三个 90 分钟的睡眠时间呢？
Is there anything that makes those unique?
有什么东西让它们独一无二吗？
What is their signature, besides the fact that they come second and third-
除了他们名列第二和第三之外，他们的标志是什么——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
...
...
in the night?
在晚上？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's more and more REM sleep the later the night we get.
晚上越晚，快速眼动睡眠就越多。
There's also a change in hormones.
荷尔蒙也有变化。
The growth hormone and melatonin levels are starting to decline, but other hormones are picking up.
生长激素和褪黑激素水平开始下降，但其他激素水平正在上升。
So it is a really different stage that you also don't want to shortchange yourself on.
所以这是一个非常不同的阶段，你也不想在这个阶段上亏待自己。
And I think that's the stage many studies are showing that those are the times in sleep when the most creativity can happen.
我认为许多研究都表明，在这个阶段，睡眠中最能发挥创造力。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's when our dreams can incorporate and put together old and new things together into a new way, and our schema are built during that time.
那时我们的梦想可以将新旧事物融合在一起，以一种新的方式组合在一起，我们的模式就是在那时建立的。
So that's when your computer of your brain is opening folders and comparing documents, seeing if is there anything the same.
因此，此时您的大脑计算机会打开文件夹并比较文档，看看是否有相同的内容。
These two documents look very much the same, but there's a little bit of difference, and it can link those conceptually.
这两个文档看起来非常相似，但有一点区别，它可以在概念上将它们联系起来。
So that that's probably one of the origins of creativity is finding things that are related, maybe just linked a little bit, and you can find that link and strengthen it if it-
所以这可能是创造力的起源之一，就是寻找相关的东西，也许只是有一点联系，你可以找到这种联系并加强它，如果它-
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
makes your schema interesting and different.
使您的模式变得有趣且与众不同。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
Many people, including myself, tend to wake up maybe once during the middle of the night to use the restroom.
许多人，包括我自己，往往会在半夜醒来一次去洗手间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
I've tried to drink less fluid before going to sleep.
我尝试在睡觉前少喝水。
I've heard also the impulse to urinate is also dictated by how quickly you drink fluid-
我还听说排尿的冲动也取决于你喝水的速度 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
...
...
not just the total volume.
不仅仅是总体积。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
So I've switched to sipping fluids more slowly for my last-
所以我最后一次喝得更慢——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
...
...
beverage of the day-
当日饮品——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
...
...
which seems to help.
这似乎有帮助。
Is there any known detriment to this middle-of-the-night waking?
半夜醒来有什么已知的危害吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No.
不。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
Or should we consider it a normal feature for some people's sleep architecture?
或者我们应该将其视为某些人睡眠结构的正常特征？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I think we shouldn't worry about it, actually.
我认为实际上我们不应该担心这个问题。
Sleep is really incredibly well homeostatically regulated.
睡眠的体内平衡调节确实非常好。
And so really don't worry about how much you're sleeping, as long as you're not intentionally depriving yourself of sleep by doing something really rewarding and exciting, because even that is stressful to your body and deprives you of a lot of the things we're talking about.
所以，只要你不是因为做一些真正有意义和令人兴奋的事情而故意剥夺自己的睡眠，就真的不用担心你睡了多少，因为即使这样也会给你的身体带来压力，并剥夺你做我们正在谈论的很多事情的机会。
It's absolutely normal to wake up at least once in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom, and as long as you can get back to sleep in a reasonable amount of time, or even if it takes you an hour, don't worry about it, as long as you have a lifestyle that allows you to then make up that sleep, either the next morning or the next night, or going to bed a little earlier.
半夜至少醒来一次去卫生间是绝对正常的，只要您能在合理的时间内重新入睡，或者即使需要一个小时，也不必担心，只要您的生活方式允许您在第二天早上或第二天晚上补觉，或者早一点睡觉。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
What is unique, perhaps, about the architecture of dreams and sleep in the, let's say, the last third of the night-
也许，关于梦和睡眠的结构的独特之处，比如说，晚上的最后三分之一——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
...
...
or the second half of the night?
还是后半夜？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
In the second half of the night, we have longer REM sleep periods, and those are considered the deepest sleep, even though slow-wave sleep Big slow wave is considered deep.
在后半夜，我们有更长的快速眼动睡眠期，这些睡眠期被认为是最深度的睡眠，尽管慢波睡眠大慢波被认为是深度睡眠。
It is deep, but actually-
虽然很深奥，但实际上——
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
Yeah, they call slow wave sleep deep sleep-
是的，他们称之为慢波睡眠深度睡眠-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
...
...
and REM sleep rapid eye movement, but now you're telling me that REM sleep is actually the deeper sleep.
快速眼动睡眠是快速眼动睡眠，但现在你告诉我，快速眼动睡眠实际上是更深的睡眠。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The deepest.
最深的。
The reason why you call slow wave sleep deep sleep is because it's difficult to arouse people out of that state, and when you do arouse them out of that state, they are most often confused and just want to go back into sleep and can go back pretty easily.
你之所以将慢波睡眠称为深度睡眠，是因为很难将人们从这种状态中唤醒，而当你确实将他们从这种状态中唤醒时，他们通常会感到困惑，只想重新进入睡眠状态，并且可以很容易地返回。
If you arouse someone out of REM sleep, they're more likely to report something that was really kind of almost like wakefulness.
如果你把某人从快速眼动睡眠中唤醒，他们更有可能报告一些类似于清醒的事情。
It was so vivid.
真是太生动了。
And maybe one of the reasons why REM sleep is deeper is, especially in adults and older people, that deep slow wave sleep goes away, so it's not as deep, it's not as big.
也许快速眼动睡眠更深的原因之一是，尤其是成年人和老年人，深度慢波睡眠消失了，所以它没有那么深，没有那么大。
The slow waves aren't as large, which is probably problematic, but we are not sure.
慢波没有那么大，这可能是有问题的，但我们不确定。
And so then REM sleep becomes the deepest stage.
所以快速眼动睡眠就变成了最深的阶段。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
We are paralyzed during REM sleep-
我们在快速眼动睡眠期间处于瘫痪状态-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
...
...
correct?
对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes.
是的。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Normally, you're paralyzed, and that's really good because that's the time when we're actively dreaming storyline dreams, and we could hurt ourselves.
通常情况下，你会瘫痪，这真的很好，因为那是我们积极梦想故事情节梦想的时候，我们可能会伤害自己。
We're actually really cut off from the outside world in terms of responding to, say, this table or a window or a door.
实际上，在对这张桌子、一扇窗户或一扇门做出反应方面，我们确实与外界隔绝了。
And so different from sleepwalking, which is out of slow wave sleep.
这与梦游不同，梦游是慢波睡眠的结果。
And out of slow wave sleep, that sleepwalking is a mixture between sleep and wakefulness.
在慢波睡眠中，梦游是睡眠和清醒的混合体。
You can cook a full meal, drive your car while you're in deep slow wave sleep.
您可以在深度慢波睡眠中做饭、开车。
It's scary because you never know what you're going to do.
这很可怕，因为你永远不知道自己要做什么。
You don't have voluntary control over it.
你无法自愿控制它。
You have no conscious control over it, but you can actually safely navigate some situations in sleepwalking and actually have a conversation, although it may not make much sense when you're sleep talking.
你无法有意识地控制它，但实际上你可以在梦游中安全地应对某些情况并进行真正的对话，尽管当你梦话时这可能没有多大意义。
In REM sleep, you're not processing the outside world, and instead, when you're acting out your dreams, you could be doing things like walking through a plate-glass window or falling down the stairs, things like that.
在快速眼动睡眠中，你不会处理外部世界，相反，当你在实现你的梦想时，你可能会做一些事情，比如穿过平板玻璃窗或从楼梯上摔下来，诸如此类的事情。
So you really want your muscles to be inactivated during REM sleep.
所以你确实希望你的肌肉在快速眼动睡眠期间不活动。
Otherwise, you will act out those dreams and really hurt yourself or your bed partner.
否则，你就会将这些梦想付诸实践，从而真正伤害自己或你的伴侣。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
So as people start to approach morning or the time when they normally would wake up-
因此，当人们开始接近早晨或他们通常起床的时间时——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
...
...
I've heard that it's important to, if possible, complete one of these 90-minute cycles prior to waking up.
我听说，如果可能的话，在起床前完成其中一个 90 分钟的循环非常重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
That is, if you set your alarm for halfway through one of these 90-minute cycles that come late-
也就是说，如果您将闹钟设置为迟到的 90 分钟周期之一的中途——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
...
...
in the night of sleep, that it can lead to rather groggy patterns of waking.
在夜间睡眠时，它会导致醒来时变得相当昏昏沉沉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
It's called sleep inertia when we wake up out of the wrong state.
当我们从错误的状态中醒来时，这被称为睡眠惯性。
I liken it to a washing machine cycle.
我把它比作洗衣机循环。
This 90-minute cycle is like a washing machine cycle, and the first part is to add water, right?
这90分钟的循环就像洗衣机的循环一样，第一部分就是加水，对吗？
Then your clothes are soaking wet, and you don't want to open the washing machine and try and function, put them on, and wear them around while they're soaking wet and full of soap.
然后你的衣服就湿透了，你不想打开洗衣机并尝试运行，穿上它们，然后在它们湿透并充满肥皂时穿着它们。
So you have to wait until the cycle is through before you can-- well, actually, let's put it in the dryer, too-
所以你必须等到循环结束才能——好吧，实际上，我们也把它放进烘干机里——
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
before you want to wear them.
在你想戴之前。
So you can function.
这样你就可以发挥作用了。
It just takes a little while for that brain to dry out so you can actually function well.
只需要一段时间，大脑就会变干，这样你就可以真正正常运作。
But it's better to wait through the whole cycle is complete.
但最好等待整个周期完成。
So that's why you want to set that 90-minute alarm clock.
这就是为什么你要设置 90 分钟的闹钟。
And again, that's around 90 minutes because the first stage of sleep, the first cycle of sleep, is actually a little longer, more like 105, 110 minutes.
再说一次，这个时间大约是 90 分钟，因为睡眠的第一阶段，即第一个睡眠周期，实际上要长一些，更像是 105、110 分钟。
But then the second ones and third ones, they get sort of shorter and shorter as the night goes on.
但随着夜幕降临，第二个和第三个它们变得越来越短。
And in the last few cycles, you're just doing the N2 REM sleep cycle, which takes less time.
在最后几个周期中，您只是进行 N2 REM 睡眠周期，这需要更少的时间。
And if you wake up out of REM sleep, there's usually no problem cognitively.
如果您从快速眼动睡眠中醒来，通常不会出现认知问题。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
Are you a fan of sleep trackers?
您是睡眠追踪器的粉丝吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Do you use one?
你用一个吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have one on.
我有一件。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't live my life by them because the best ones right now are about 70% effective at-
我不靠它们生活，因为现在最好的那些大约有 70% 的效果是——
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
staging your sleep.
安排你的睡眠。
So 70% is okay.
所以70%就可以了。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's okay, but take it with a grain of salt is what I'm saying.
没关系，但我要说的是要持保留态度。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
Tell us a little bit more about the washout that occurs in the brain during sleep, and perhaps if there are any ways to ensure that it happens or to ensure that it doesn't happen.
告诉我们更多关于睡眠期间大脑中发生的冲刷的信息，也许有什么方法可以确保它发生或确保它不会发生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
And obviously, we want this to happen.
显然，我们希望这一切发生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
We talked about the circadian clock and how certain things happen at certain times.
我们讨论了生物钟以及某些事情如何在特定时间发生。
Well, one of the things that happens when we're awake and talking to each other is that there's a lot of plasticity.
嗯，当我们醒着并互相交谈时发生的事情之一是，有很多可塑性。
There's something that I'm learning from you today, and you're learning from me, and that changes our synapses, and it changes the way our proteins are going to be folded and changed during sleep.
今天我向你学习了一些东西，你也向我学习了一些东西，它改变了我们的突触，它改变了我们的蛋白质在睡眠期间折叠和改变的方式。
This process actually uses a lot of ATP, the power structure, the fuel of the brain.
这个过程实际上使用了大量的ATP，能量结构，大脑的燃料。
It unfolds also proteins while we're doing this, while we're using them.
当我们这样做时，当我们使用蛋白质时，它也会展开蛋白质。
And so during that first part of the night, when we first fall asleep, in the first 20 minutes or so, we're building that adenosine back into ATP, and that's probably why power naps are called power naps, because we're actually rebuilding the power.
因此，在晚上的第一部分，当我们第一次入睡时，在最初的 20 分钟左右，我们将腺苷重新构建成 ATP，这可能就是为什么小睡被称为小睡的原因，因为我们实际上是在重建能量。
And then we're also, through the deep slow waves of slow wave sleep, we're cleaning out all those misfolded proteins, unfolded proteins, and other things that get broken down and need to be rebuilt when we're asleep because of its use during wakefulness.
然后，通过慢波睡眠的深层慢波，我们正在清除所有那些错误折叠的蛋白质、未折叠的蛋白质以及其他在我们睡着时分解并需要重建的东西，因为它们在清醒时使用。
So I liken that to having a big party during wakefulness, and you need all those partygoers to leave in order to do the cleanup.
所以我把这比作在清醒时举办一场大型聚会，你需要所有参加聚会的人离开才能进行清理工作。
What happens when a neuron is firing is that it expands.
当神经元放电时会发生什么，它会扩张。
The membrane expands a little bit.
膜稍微膨胀。
It becomes more translucent.
它变得更加半透明。
That's one of the ways we know that neurons expand when they fire.
这是我们知道神经元放电时扩张的方式之一。
And so every action potential, the membrane expands a little bit as sodium brings water into the cell.
因此，当钠将水带入细胞时，每个动作电位都会使膜稍微膨胀。
And then when they're silent, they contract.
然后当他们沉默时，他们就会收缩。
And so during slow waves, the cool thing is that the reason why you can measure them is that all the neurons at the same time, not all of them, but a good portion of them, are firing at the same time and silent at the same time.
因此，在慢波期间，最酷的事情是，您可以测量它们的原因是所有神经元（不是全部，而是其中很大一部分）同时放电并同时保持沉默。
And so you think about that as contracting and expanding all at the same time.
所以你认为这是同时收缩和扩张的。
It's kind of like a bilge pump of the brain.
它有点像大脑的舱底泵。
So that can pump out.
这样就可以抽出来了。
Glia are also really important for this in terms of cleaning up debris and transferring it to where it needs to go.
胶质细胞在清理碎片并将其转移到需要去的地方方面也非常重要。
So I think of it actually as a bilge pump cleaning out our brain.
所以我认为它实际上是一个清理我们大脑的舱底泵。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
Here you're talking about literally an expansion and a contraction of the neurons in unison-
这里你谈论的是神经元的同步扩张和收缩——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
...
...
and pushing the fluid through-
并将流体推过-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
...
...
cleaning out any misfolded proteins or-
清除任何错误折叠的蛋白质或-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
...
...
debris that might occur-
可能出现的碎片——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
...
...
on the basis of these metabolic pathways.
在这些代谢途径的基础上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
And the consequence of that is to what?
其后果是什么？
To leave the brain in a state of more pristine action for the next day?
让大脑在第二天保持更原始的活动状态？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
You think of it, again, like a party, and if you don't clean up after that party and you try and hold another one the next day, it's going to get more clogged.
你再把它想象成一个聚会，如果聚会结束后你不清理干净，第二天又想再举办一次聚会，聚会就会变得更加堵塞。
People have a harder time moving around and enjoying themselves.
人们很难四处走动并享受生活。
And if that builds up day after day, it's going to be cognition, that would be the partygoers moving around, becomes hard.
如果这种情况日复一日地累积，那么对于那些四处走动的聚会常客的认知就会变得困难。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
And so this bilge pump that you describe-
所以你描述的这个舱底泵-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
...
...
is associated with the big slow waves-
与大慢波有关-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
...
...
of slow-wave sleep.
的慢波睡眠。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
So this is going to occur more or less in the first third of the night.
所以这或多或少会在晚上的前三分之一发生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yep.
是的。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's right.
没错。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
And is this similar to the case with growth hormone, where if you go to sleep later than you would normally-
这是否类似于生长激素的情况，如果你比平时睡得晚——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's right
没错
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
...
...
you miss the washout?
你想念冲洗吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You just miss it, yeah.
你只是想念它，是的。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
You don't delay it.
你别耽误了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No.
不。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
You miss the washout.
你错过了冲洗。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's right.
没错。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
Oh, boy.
哦，男孩。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So if you go to sleep at 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning, your sleep is still going to be dominated by N2 and REM sleep, not by slow-wave sleep.
因此，如果您在凌晨 1:00 或 2:00 睡觉，您的睡眠仍然会以 N2 和 REM 睡眠为主，而不是慢波睡眠。
So you need to get that first bit of sleep.
所以你需要先睡一觉。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
Would a caveat to that be if somebody normally goes to sleep at 1:00 or 2:00 a.m.
需要注意的是，如果有人通常在凌晨 1:00 或 2:00 睡觉。
and wakes up at 10:00 a.m.-
并于上午 10:00 起床-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
...
...
if that's their normal sleep cycle?
这是他们正常的睡眠周期吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It should be okay.
应该没问题。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Somebody would want to do a sleep study with people who do that normally and see if also the melatonin release is later and the corticosterone rise that happens normally in the morning also happens later.
有人想要对那些正常睡眠的人进行睡眠研究，看看褪黑激素的释放是否也较晚，以及早晨正常发生的皮质酮升高是否也发生较晚。
So if everything's shifted, good.
所以如果一切都改变了，那很好。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Eight Sleep.
我想稍微休息一下，并向我们的赞助商“八睡”表示感谢。
Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity.
August Sleep 生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。
One of the best ways to ensure you get a great night's sleep is to make sure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct.
确保您睡个好觉的最佳方法之一是确保睡眠环境的温度正确。
And that's because in order to fall asleep and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees.
这是因为为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的体温实际上必须下降约一到三度。
And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees.
为了醒来时感觉神清气爽、精力充沛，您的体温实际上必须升高约一到三度。
Eight Sleep automatically regulates the temperature of your bed throughout the night according to your unique needs.
八睡眠会根据您的独特需求自动调节整个晚上的床温。
I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for nearly five years now, and it has completely transformed and improved the quality of my sleep.
我已经睡在八睡眠床垫罩上近五年了，它彻底改变并改善了我的睡眠质量。
The latest Eight Sleep model is the Pod 5.
最新的八睡眠型号是 Pod 5。
This is what I'm now sleeping on, and I absolutely love it.
这就是我现在睡觉的地方，我非常喜欢它。
It has so many incredible features.
它有很多令人难以置信的功能。
For instance, the Pod 5 has a feature called Autopilot, which is an AI engine that learns your sleep patterns and then adjusts the temperature of your sleeping environment across different sleep stages.
例如，Pod 5有一个名为Autopilot的功能，这是一个人工智能引擎，可以学习你的睡眠模式，然后在不同的睡眠阶段调整你的睡眠环境温度。
It'll even elevate your head if you're snoring, and it makes other shifts to optimize your sleep.
如果您打鼾，它甚至会抬高您的头部，并进行其他转换以优化您的睡眠。
If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, go to eightsleep.com/huberman to get up to $350 off the new Pod 5.
如果您想尝试八睡眠，请访问八睡眠.com/huberman，新款 Pod 5 最高可享受 350 美元优惠。
Eight Sleep ships to many countries worldwide, including Mexico and the UAE.
八号睡眠船运往世界各地的许多国家，包括墨西哥和阿联酋。
Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $350.
同样，访问八睡眠.com/huberman 最多可节省 350 美元。
I'd love for you to tell us about this incredible structure in the brain, which is the locus coeruleus, and hopefully tell us a little bit about its relationship to epinephrine, AKA adrenaline.
我希望您能告诉我们大脑中这个令人难以置信的结构，即蓝斑，并希望能告诉我们一些它与肾上腺素（又称肾上腺素）的关系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So the locus coeruleus is filled with neurons that have in them norepinephrine, which is the brain's version of epinephrine or adrenaline.
因此，蓝斑充满了含有去甲肾上腺素的神经元，去甲肾上腺素是大脑版本的肾上腺素或肾上腺素。
It's also called noradrenaline.
它也被称为去甲肾上腺素。
And what it does is, just like adrenaline in the rest of our bodies, it helps prime us to respond to our environment.
它的作用是，就像我们身体其他部位的肾上腺素一样，它有助于我们对环境做出反应。
So when locus coeruleus neurons fire, and fire in a burst, we can switch our attention, and they will fire in a burst if, for example, a loud noise happens in the middle of your concentrating on something.
因此，当蓝斑神经元放电，并且突然放电时，我们可以转移我们的注意力，例如，如果您在专注于某件事的过程中发生了巨大的噪音，它们就会突然放电。
It fires, and it helps you switch your attention to that thing, and then learn quickly from it.
它会激发你的注意力，帮助你将注意力转移到那件事上，然后快速从中学习。
So it's really important in a stress response.
所以这对于压力反应来说非常重要。
It helps us do quick one-trial learning.
它可以帮助我们快速进行一次尝试学习。
But just tonic levels are a signature of wakefulness and alertness.
但进补水平才是清醒和警觉的标志。
So too much is panic with a locus coeruleus activity.
因此，蓝斑活动引起的恐慌太多了。
A burst is switching attention.
突发正在转移注意力。
And then tonic levels are sustained constant attention.
然后进补的水平是持续不断的关注。
And then when we go to sleep, the locus coeruleus slows and goes from about, on average, two hertz to about one hertz, one cycle per second, tonically.
然后，当我们入睡时，蓝斑速度减慢，从平均约 2 赫兹变为约 1 赫兹，每秒一个周期，强直。
And then when we go into REM sleep, it's the only time when it shuts off completely.
然后当我们进入快速眼动睡眠时，这是它完全关闭的唯一一次。
And it appears that that complete silence is really, really important for a number of things.
看来完全的沉默对于很多事情来说真的非常重要。
And the main thing that I think it's important for is the ability to erase and break down synapses that are no longer working for us.
我认为最重要的是能够擦除和分解不再为我们工作的突触。
So they encode things that are false now, or they are encoding things that we learned in the novelty encoding pathway of our brain that have now been consolidated to other pathways, and so we need to now erase them from the novelty encoding pathway.
所以它们现在编码的是错误的东西，或者它们正在编码我们在大脑的新颖性编码路径中学到的东西，这些东西现在已经被整合到其他路径中，所以我们现在需要从新颖性编码路径中删除它们。
And that is really, really important for being able to continue to learn things all of our lives.
这对于我们一生能够继续学习东西来说真的非常非常重要。
So like erasing that RAM, or that, I don't know, what do you call those disks that you stick into computers that-
就像擦除 RAM，或者，我不知道，你将那些插入计算机的磁盘称为什么-
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
Little thumb drives
小拇指驱动器
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
thumb drives, yeah.
拇指驱动器，是的。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
Thumb drives.
拇指驱动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Erasing your thumb drive.
擦除您的拇指驱动器。
So that thumb drive is what you carry around all day long.
因此，拇指驱动器就是您整天随身携带的东西。
And then during sleep, you write that thumb drive to the cortex, to the long-term memory structures, and you need to refresh that thumb drive.
然后在睡眠期间，您将拇指驱动器写入皮质、长期记忆结构，并且您需要刷新该拇指驱动器。
And that's what happens during REM sleep when the locus coeruleus is off.
这就是快速眼动睡眠期间蓝斑关闭时发生的情况。
And so if we're not able to do that, we fill up that RAM really quickly, or that thumb drive really quickly, and we're not able to learn new things.
因此，如果我们不能做到这一点，我们的内存就会很快被填满，或者拇指驱动器也会很快被填满，我们就无法学习新东西。
Even memories that are years past, if you're never able to downscale that novelty encoding structure and you purge it from that traumatic memory, it will stay fresh and new, and then become maladaptive.
即使是几年前的记忆，如果你永远无法缩小这种新奇的编码结构，并将其从创伤性记忆中清除，它也会保持新鲜感，然后变得适应不良。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
What approaches are you aware of that can turn down the output of locus coeruleus during these phases of sleep and allow late stages of sleep each night to have their maximum positive effect?
您知道哪些方法可以在这些睡眠阶段降低蓝斑的输出，并让每晚的睡眠后期发挥最大的积极作用？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
Is there anything that I can do besides avoiding serotonergic or noradrenergic compounds?
除了避免使用血清素或去甲肾上腺素能化合物之外，我还能做些什么吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I would also avoid anything just prior to going to sleep that might excite those systems.
嗯，我也会在睡觉前避免做任何可能刺激这些系统的事情。
So a lot of novelty, stress-inducing video games.
所以有很多新奇的、会引起压力的电子游戏。
Try and enter sleep with as much calm as you can.
尝试尽可能平静地进入睡眠。
So maybe deep breathing exercises.
所以也许可以进行深呼吸练习。
That's a beautiful way to calm your sympathetic fight or flight system, is deep breathing.
深呼吸是让你的交感神经战斗或逃跑系统平静下来的好方法。
And if there's a way you can make your sympathetic nervous system calm down before you go to sleep, might be for you meditation or deep breathing exercises.
如果有一种方法可以让你的交感神经系统在入睡前平静下来，可能适合你的冥想或深呼吸练习。
It might be for some a warm bath or a comforting book.
对于某些人来说，这可能是一个热水澡或一本令人安慰的书。
Nothing too exciting, but also nothing too boring, perhaps.
也许没有什么太令人兴奋的，但也没有什么太无聊的。
Just something right in the middle, which makes you feel happy and calm, is what you should do.
你应该做的就是介于中间的事情，让你感到快乐和平静。
And if you instead go to sleep while you're anxious or hyped up, then your sleep could become maladaptive.
如果你在焦虑或亢奋时入睡，那么你的睡眠可能会变得不适应。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
I'd love for you to share with us a little bit more about the spindles that have come up a few times.
我希望您能与我们分享更多关于已经出现过几次的主轴的信息。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
The density of our sleep spindles, the number that we produce per minute, is well correlated with our intelligence in the first place, and that no matter what your intelligence is, and no matter what your sleep spindle density is, if you're learning something during the day and increase your sleep spindle density, it's really almost perfectly correlated with our ability to consolidate that information and incorporate it into the schema that we already have in our brains.
我们的睡眠纺锤波密度，即我们每分钟产生的数量，首先与我们的智力密切相关，无论你的智力如何，无论你的睡眠纺锤波密度是多少，如果你在白天学习一些东西并增加睡眠纺锤波密度，它实际上与我们巩固这些信息并将其纳入我们大脑中已有模式的能力几乎完全相关。
So if you try and learn something new, even if your sleep spindle density at baseline is great, if you don't increase your sleep spindles that night, you're not going to use sleep to really incorporate it.
因此，如果你尝试学习新东西，即使你的基线睡眠纺锤波密度很好，如果你那天晚上不增加睡眠纺锤波，你就不会利用睡眠来真正融入它。
One of the things we now know through some great studies by Julie Seep and Anita Luthi is that sleep spindles are accompanied by an incredible plasticity out in the distal dendrites, the listening branches of our neurons that listen to other cortical areas.
我们现在通过 Julie Seep 和 Anita Luthi 的一些伟大研究了解到的一件事是，睡眠纺锤波伴随着远端树突令人难以置信的可塑性，远端树突是我们神经元的聆听分支，负责聆听其他皮质区域。
So there are proximal dendrites in our neurons that listen to the external world and are conducted through the thalamus, and then there are distal dendrites which listen to an internal kind of conversation that's happening in our brains.
因此，我们的神经元中有近端树突，它们监听外部世界并通过丘脑进行传导，然后远端树突监听我们大脑中发生的内部对话。
It's kind of our internal state, really.
这确实是我们的内部状态。
And during sleep spindles, that's when those distal dendrites are able to best learn from other cortical areas and from the hippocampus.
在睡眠纺锤波期间，远端树突能够最好地从其他皮质区域和海马体学习。
It is during sleep spindles that the hippocampus and the cortex are best connected and when that incredible plasticity can happen.
在睡眠纺锤波期间，海马体和皮质连接得最好，此时令人难以置信的可塑性就会发生。
So when I talk about schema, that's a cortical thing.
所以当我谈论模式时，这是一个皮质的东西。
There's big surges of calcium into those distal dendrites, and where plasticity happens in just huge amounts.
远端树突中的钙大量涌入，而可塑性也发生在这些地方。
During that sleep spindle stage of sleep, which is N2 stage, there's another excitatory event that comes all the way from the brain stem and projects everywhere in our cortex, which is called PGO waves, which we should generalize to P waves because they come from the pons and go to the thalamus, and then the cortex.
在睡眠的睡眠纺锤阶段，即 N2 阶段，还有另一个兴奋事件，它从脑干一路传来，投射到我们皮质的各处，称为 PGO 波，我们应该将其概括为 P 波，因为它们来自脑桥，到达丘脑，然后到达皮质。
Happens all over the brain, and that is where glutamate, which is a major excitatory neurotransmitter involved in learning and plasticity, is being released in big amounts also in those distal dendrites.
整个大脑都发生这种情况，谷氨酸是参与学习和可塑性的主要兴奋性神经递质，在远端树突中也大量释放。
So P waves and spindles work together to cause plasticity and sew our schema together, which could be the origins for insight and creativity.
因此，P 波和主轴共同作用，产生可塑性，并将我们的图式缝合在一起，这可能是洞察力和创造力的起源。
Now, when P waves were first discovered, it was thought to be random because this small area that generates P waves all over the brain projects all over the thalamus and causes P waves all over.
现在，当P波首次被发现时，人们认为它是随机的，因为在整个大脑中产生P波的这个小区域投射到整个丘脑并在各处产生P波。
And you don't measure P waves all over the brain at the same time.
而且您不会同时测量整个大脑的 P 波。
In fact, it just seems sporadic and random.
事实上，它看起来只是零星的和随机的。
And P waves are also happening even more during REM sleep, rapid eye movement sleep.
P 波在快速眼动睡眠（快速动眼睡眠）期间也发生得更多。
So that's why people think that REM dreams are so random, is because these P waves are random, and they could generate dreams because they're an internal source of excitation that kind of replaces the outside world during our dream state.
这就是为什么人们认为 REM 梦是如此随机，因为这些 P 波是随机的，它们可以产生梦，因为它们是一种内部兴奋源，在我们的梦状态期间取代了外部世界。
And so these P waves, if they are random, could be the underlying reason why creativity can happen there, is because we're randomly co-activating different things in our brain that we can then sew together.
因此，这些 P 波，如果它们是随机的，可能是创造力能够发生的根本原因，因为我们随机地共同激活大脑中的不同事物，然后我们可以将它们缝合在一起。
But it might not be as random as we think.
但它可能并不像我们想象的那么随机。
So that's a caveat there.
所以这是一个警告。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。
AG1 just launched their newest formulation called AG1 Pro, and right now you can get an extra 20% off your first subscription.
AG1 刚刚推出了名为 AG1 Pro 的最新配方，现在您首次订阅可享受 20% 的额外折扣。
AG1 takes the clinically backed AG1 formula, which is a blend of vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and adaptogens, and adds three important new ingredients: creatine monohydrate, calcium HMB, and zinc carnosine.
AG1 采用临床支持的 AG1 配方，该配方是维生素、矿物质、益生菌和适应原的混合物，并添加了三种重要的新成分：一水肌酸、HMB 钙和肌肽锌。
It has five grams of creatine monohydrate to support muscle strength and performance, along with brain health.
它含有 5 克一水肌酸，可支持肌肉力量和性能以及大脑健康。
Calcium HMB to support muscle recovery and reduce muscle breakdown, and zinc carnosine to support and improve the lining of your gut.
HMB 钙可支持肌肉恢复并减少肌肉分解，肌肽锌可支持和改善肠道内壁。
Some of these ingredients I personally was already taking separate from the AG1 formula, so it's great to see all three of them now in the new AG1 Pro.
其中一些成分我个人已经从 AG1 配方中分离出来，所以很高兴看到这三种成分现在都出现在新的 AG1 Pro 中。
As you may know, I've been taking AG1 every single day for about 14 years now.
如您所知，我每天服用 AG1 已有大约 14 年了。
That means I discovered it and started taking it daily long before I even knew what a podcast was.
这意味着我早在知道播客是什么之前就发现了它并开始每天服用它。
I continue to take it and back it here on the podcast because it is an excellent formula, and it's now even better with the AG1 Pro formula.
我继续在播客上使用它并返回它，因为它是一个出色的公式，而且现在使用 AG1 Pro 公式甚至更好。
For a limited time, you can get an extra 20% off your first subscription to AG1 Pro by going to drinkag1.com/huberman and using the code BACK2ROUTINE.
在有限的时间内，您可以通过访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 并使用代码 BACK2ROUTINE 来获得首次订阅 AG1 Pro 的额外 20% 折扣。
So that's with a numeral two, BACK2ROUTINE.
这就是数字 2，BACK2ROUTINE。
Just go to drinkag1.com/huberman.
只需访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman。
So locus coeruleus is suppressed-
所以蓝斑被抑制了——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
...
...
so we can't release norepinephrine.
所以我们不能释放去甲肾上腺素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
We can't act out our dreams.
我们无法实现我们的梦想。
This almost starts to sound like a little bit of a built-in while sleeping trauma therapy.
这听起来有点像是一种内置的睡眠创伤疗法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
So please, if there's anything about locus coeruleus and dreams that can help people basically extinguish traumas or traumatic features to real-life events.
所以，请问有什么关于蓝斑和梦的东西可以帮助人们从根本上消除现实生活事件的创伤或创伤特征。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
And we definitely want to know about them.
我们肯定想了解他们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, I think one of the things that people thought might help after a trauma, like a school shooting or whatever, car accident, is to talk about it.
嗯，我认为人们认为在遭受创伤（例如学校枪击事件或其他车祸）后可能有帮助的事情之一就是谈论它。
But in fact, that ended up being counterproductive.
但事实上，这最终适得其反。
And I think one of the reasons why it was counterproductive is because it didn't take them back down.
我认为它适得其反的原因之一是因为它没有让他们退缩。
It brought them up and continued to reactivate the emotions of it, but then didn't emphasize the safety, the fact that it's over, or help them work through how they might avoid it again in the future to calm the sympathetic nervous system down again before they went to sleep.
它把他们带了出来，并继续重新激活它的情绪，但随后没有强调安全性，即它已经结束的事实，或帮助他们研究如何在未来再次避免它，以便在他们入睡前再次使交感神经系统平静下来。
And none of these studies has sleep ever been considered.
这些研究都没有考虑过睡眠。
But to me, that's the key part, is bringing down your sympathetic nervous system before you go to sleep so that your sleep can be adaptive, your locus coeruleus can shut off like it normally does or should do, and then able to erase the novelty of it.
但对我来说，这是关键部分，就是在你入睡前关闭你的交感神经系统，这样你的睡眠就可以适应，你的蓝斑可以像平常一样或应该关闭，然后能够消除它的新鲜感。
The other thing that I just mentioned a minute ago was that the emotional system is highly activated in REM sleep, and that's definitely true.
我刚才提到的另一件事是，情绪系统在快速眼动睡眠中高度激活，这绝对是事实。
And that might seem counterproductive in terms of the nightmares and how to help REM sleep be a therapeutic thing rather than reinforcing the emotionality of the trauma.
就噩梦以及如何帮助快速眼动睡眠成为一种治疗手段而不是强化创伤的情绪而言，这似乎会适得其反。
And I think the key to that, again, is the absence of norepinephrine.
我认为关键在于缺乏去甲肾上腺素。
So even though the emotional system is in high gear, without norepinephrine, you can actually divorce those highly activated emotions from the cognitive parts of the memory that you have just written out in that N2 stage of sleep, when the sleep spindles are going.
因此，即使情绪系统处于高速运转，没有去甲肾上腺素，你实际上可以将那些高度激活的情绪与你刚刚在睡眠的 N2 阶段（当睡眠纺锤波开始运转时）写下的记忆的认知部分分开。
So you've just now consolidated the information that you'll need to survive and to make that adaptive, and now you need to divorce from that schema and from that semantic parts of memory, the emotional part.
因此，您刚刚整合了生存所需的信息并使其具有适应性，现在您需要脱离该模式以及记忆的语义部分（情感部分）。
Because whenever you remember something, it's fine if you remember being emotional at the time, but you don't want to bring back and sew into that memory all of the same emotional systems.
因为每当你记起某件事时，如果你记得当时的情绪是很好的，但你不想将所有相同的情绪系统带回并缝入记忆中。
You don't want to bring back the heart rate changes and the sweating and all of that.
您不想恢复心率变化和出汗等所有情况。
You want to be able to remember all the parts of it and even remember that you were traumatized and that you did cry and that you did have your heart was racing.
你希望能够记住它的所有部分，甚至记得你受到了创伤，你确实哭过，你确实心跳加速。
But when you're talking about it years later, you don't want to have to relive all that.
但多年后当你谈论这件事时，你不想重温这一切。
Otherwise, who would ever want to recall a traumatic memory?
否则，谁会愿意回忆起创伤性的记忆呢？
Because you're basically putting yourself through the same trauma, which is what people with PTSD have.
因为你基本上让自己经历了同样的创伤，这就是患有创伤后应激障碍的人所经历的。
They don't want to recall this traumatic memory because it's reliving it like it's just happening again.
他们不想回忆起这段痛苦的记忆，因为它正在重温它，就像它刚刚再次发生一样。
So that's what we're thinking is that the emotional parts are not able to be divorced because the norepinephrine system is not down-scaled during REM sleep.
所以我们的想法是，情绪部分无法分离，因为去甲肾上腺素系统在快速眼动睡眠期间没有缩小规模。
And so that REM sleep serves to instead reinforce and, in fact, amplify the emotions because your emotional system is up, locus coeruleus is high, re-sewing in every night the emotionality of those memories in with the memory itself.
因此，快速眼动睡眠反而会强化甚至放大情绪，因为你的情绪系统处于上升状态，蓝斑处于高位，每天晚上都会将这些记忆的情绪与记忆本身重新缝合在一起。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
I must say, you've taught us a tremendous amount in a relatively short amount of time about the architecture of sleep, the different phases.
我必须说，您在相对较短的时间内教会了我们大量有关睡眠结构和不同阶段的知识。
Such a wealth of information and much of it that's actionable for people.
如此丰富的信息，其中大部分对人们来说都是可行的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Gina Poe:
吉娜·坡博士：
So I want to say thank you for taking the time to sit down and have this conversation that so many people are sure to benefit from.
所以我想说感谢您抽出时间坐下来进行这次对话，很多人一定会从中受益。
I know I speak for everybody when I say thank you so much.
我知道当我说非常感谢时，我代表了所有人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you so much.
非常感谢。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
You matched on Hinge.
您在铰链上匹配。
You're vibing.
你很有活力。
Then her energy completely changes.
然后她的能量就彻底改变了。
What do you do?
你做什么工作？
I'm Raven Smith, and I wrote and read a real love story about this exact sitch.
我是雷文·史密斯，我写过并读过一个关于这个故事的真实爱情故事。
Listen to the free audiobook now
立即收听免费有声读物