Essentials: Timing Light for Better Sleep, Energy & Mood | Dr. Samer Hattar
Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials, where we revisit past episodes for the most potent and actionable science-based tools for mental health, physical health, and performance.
欢迎来到 Huberman Lab Essentials，在这里我们回顾过去的剧集，寻找针对心理健康、身体健康和表现的最有效、最可操作的基于科学的工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
Today, I have the pleasure of introducing Dr. Samer Hattar as my guest on the Huberman Lab Podcast.
今天，我很荣幸地介绍 Samer Hattar 博士作为我的 Huberman 实验室播客的嘉宾。
And now, my conversation with Dr. Samer Hattar.
现在，我与萨默·哈塔尔博士的对话。
Samer, thanks for sitting down with me.
Samer，感谢您坐下来与我交谈。
My pleasure.
我的荣幸。
You are best known in scientific circles for your work on how light impacts mood, learning, feeding, hunger, sleep, and these sorts of topics.
您在科学界最出名的作品是关于光如何影响情绪、学习、进食、饥饿、睡眠等主题的研究。
So, maybe you could just wade us into what the relationship is between light and these things like mood and hunger, et cetera.
所以，也许你可以让我们了解光与情绪和饥饿等事物之间的关系。
Sure.
当然。
So, I mean, you do appreciate the effect of light for vision.
所以，我的意思是，您确实欣赏光对视觉的影响。
So, when you wake up in a beautiful area, beautiful ocean, light is essential.
所以，当你在一个美丽的地方、美丽的海洋中醒来时，光线是必不可少的。
The sunrise, the sunset.
日出，日落。
So, that's your conscious perception of light.
所以，这就是你对光的有意识的感知。
But light has a completely different aspect that is independent of conscious vision, and that's how it regulates many important functions in your body.
但光有一个完全不同的方面，它独立于意识视觉，这就是它调节身体许多重要功能的方式。
I think the best that is well studied and well known is your circadian clock.
我认为经过充分研究和众所周知的最好的就是您的生物钟。
And the word "circadian" comes from the word "circa," which is approximate, and "dien" is day, so it's an approximate day.
“昼夜节律”这个词来自“circa”这个词，它是近似的，而“dien”是一天，所以它是一个近似的日期。
Why is it an approximate day?
为什么是近似日？
Because if I put you or any other human being who have a normal circadian clock in a constant conditions, with no information about feeding time, about sleep time, about what time it is outside, you still have a daily rhythm, but it's not exactly 24 hours.
因为如果我把你或任何其他有正常生物钟的人置于恒定的条件下，没有关于进食时间、睡眠时间、外面时间的信息，你仍然有每日节律，但不完全是 24 小时。
So, it will shift out of the solar day because it's not exactly 24 hours, and hence the name "circadian".
因此，它会移出太阳日，因为它不完全是 24 小时，因此得名“昼夜节律”。
How does that rhythm show up in the tissues of our body?
这种节律如何在我们身体的组织中表现出来？
It shows up at every level that we know and we studied.
它出现在我们所知道和研究的各个层面。
It shows up at the level of the cell, it shows up at the level of the tissue, and it shows up at your behavior.
它出现在细胞水平、组织水平以及你的行为中。
The most obvious for you is your sleep-wake cycle.
对您来说最明显的是您的睡眠-觉醒周期。
You sleep and, uh, you're awake and sleep at the 24-hour rhythms.
你睡觉，呃，你醒着，按照 24 小时的节奏睡觉。
The period length of the sleep rhythm on average is 24.2 hours, so you'll be drifting .2 hours every day out of the solar day if you don't get the sunlight.
睡眠节律的平均周期长度为 24.2 小时，因此，如果您没有晒到阳光，每天就会偏离太阳日 0.2 小时。
Huh.
呵呵。
So, this, the sunlight adjusts that approximate day to an exact day, so now your behavior is adjusted to the light-dark environment or the solar day.
所以，阳光将近似的一天调整为精确的一天，所以现在你的行为适应了明暗环境或太阳日。
It's part of the brain that is not consciously driven, so you actually do not know when it happens or when it doesn't happen.
它是大脑中不受意识驱动的部分，因此您实际上不知道它何时发生或何时不发生。
And that what we'll get into when I tell you why light affects your mood and why sometimes people don't know how to deal with light to improve their mood, for example.
例如，当我告诉你为什么光会影响你的情绪以及为什么有时人们不知道如何处理光来改善他们的情绪时，我们将讨论这个问题。
What's the relevance?
有什么相关性？
I mean, why should we care about that short difference?
我的意思是，我们为什么要关心这个短暂的差异？
So, let's do the math.
那么，让我们算一下。
If you shift out .2 hours a day, in five days, you're shifting out one hour.
如果您每天换班 0.2 小时，那么五天后，您将换班一小时。
So, you're literally one hour off in your social behavior in five days.
所以，五天内你的社交行为实际上就减少了一小时。
In 10 days, you're two hours off.
10天后，你就可以休息两个小时了。
And if you're an organism that is living in the wild, shifting out of the right phase of the cycle, you could either miss food or you could become food.
如果你是一个生活在野外的有机体，脱离了周期的正确阶段，你可能会错过食物，或者你可能会成为食物。
So, it's really essential for survival.
所以，这对于生存来说确实至关重要。
I think it's one of the strongest aspect of survival for animals to have the anticipation and the adjustment to the solar cycle.
我认为对动物来说，对太阳周期的预期和调整是生存最强大的方面之一。
What is the, the machinery that allows that to happen?
允许这种情况发生的机制是什么？
And w- how does that machinery work?
那-那台机器是如何工作的？
Yeah.
是的。
So, we know, we knew that in mammals, including us, we are mammals, humans, that the eyes are required for this function.
所以，我们知道，我们知道，在哺乳动物中，包括我们，我们是哺乳动物，人类，眼睛是这项功能所必需的。
So, if humans are born without eyes or the optic nerves are damaged, humans are not able to adjust to the solar cycle.
因此，如果人类天生没有眼睛或视神经受损，人类就无法适应太阳周期。
So, we know that the eyes are required.
所以，我们知道眼睛是需要的。
In the human retinas, there are two types of photoreceptors.
在人类视网膜中，有两种类型的感光器。
They are called rods and cones because of their shapes.
由于它们的形状，它们被称为杆和锥。
And these rods and cones simply take the photon energy, which light is made of, and they change it in a way to an electrical signal that allow us to build the image of the environment in our cortices.
这些视杆细胞和视锥细胞只是获取构成光的光子能量，并将其转变为电信号，使我们能够在皮质中构建环境图像。
However, people have found, including me with the work of David Berson and Ignacio Provencio, that there's a subset of ganglion cells.
然而，包括我在内的人们发现，有一个神经节细胞的子集。
The ganglion cells are the cells that leave the retina, their axon leave the retina, and project to the brain.
神经节细胞是离开视网膜的细胞，它们的轴突离开视网膜，投射到大脑。
So, these were thought to only relay rod and cone information from the light environment to the brain.
因此，这些被认为只能将视杆细胞和视锥细胞信息从光环境传递到大脑。
We found that a small subset of these ganglion cells are themselves photoreceptors that were completely missed in the retina.
我们发现这些神经节细胞的一小部分本身就是视网膜中完全缺失的光感受器。
And these are the photoreceptors that relay light environment subconsciously to the areas in the brain that have and house the circadian clock or the circadian pacemaker which adjust all the clocks in our bodies to the central brain clock that allows them to entrain to the 24-hour light-dark cycle.
这些光感受器会下意识地将光环境传递到大脑中拥有并容纳生物钟或节律起搏器的区域，这些区域将我们体内的所有生物钟调整到中枢大脑生物钟，使它们能够进入 24 小时的明暗周期。
So, these are cells that connect the eye and the brain that behave like photoreceptors, essentially.
因此，这些连接眼睛和大脑的细胞本质上就像光感受器一样。
Right.
正确的。
I think, um, it's worth mentioning now that, uh, people who are pattern vision blind, so people who cannot see but have eyes, many of them still have these cells, these melanopsin intrinsically photosensitive cells, and can, uh, essentially match or entrain, as we say, onto the, uh, light-dark cycle.
我认为，嗯，现在值得一提的是，呃，模式视觉失明的人，所以那些看不见但有眼睛的人，他们中的许多人仍然拥有这些细胞，这些黑视蛋白本质上感光细胞，并且可以，呃，本质上匹配或夹带，正如我们所说的，进入，呃，明暗循环。
In fact, they possibly have no problems in circadian photoentrainment.
事实上，它们在昼夜节律光诱导方面可能没有问题。
They'll have normal sleep-wake cycle.
他们将有正常的睡眠-觉醒周期。
But they're totally blind?
但他们完全是瞎子吗？
But they are totally image blind.
但他们完全是图像盲。
And what's really interesting is that...
真正有趣的是......
And this story I heard from Chuck Czeisler, so I'll give him credit.
这个故事是我从 Chuck Czeisler 那里听到的，所以我相信他。
That some of these people who are image blind, usually they get dry eyes and they give them a lot of pain.
其中一些图像盲的人通常会出现眼睛干涩的情况，这给他们带来了很多痛苦。
And doctors used to think, "Oh, since they are image blind and they're getting dry eye, why don't you just remove their eyes?
医生们过去常想，“哦，既然他们是图像盲，并且患有干眼症，为什么不摘掉他们的眼睛呢？
They're not using them anymore." And the minute they would remove their eyes, they start having cyclical sleep problems, indicating that now they are not entraining to the light-dark cycle and are having cyclical jet lags when their clock shifts through the light-dark cycle.
他们不再使用它们了。”当他们移开眼睛的那一刻，他们就开始出现周期性睡眠问题，这表明他们现在没有进入明暗循环，并且当他们的时钟在明暗循环中移动时，他们会出现周期性时差反应。
That's really interesting, and, uh, I hear from a number of blind people.
这真的很有趣，而且，呃，我听到了一些盲人的意见。
A lot of them have issues with sleep, I think, in part because they don't realize that they too need to see light at particular times of day or night in order to match their-
我认为，他们中的很多人都有睡眠问题，部分原因是他们没有意识到他们也需要在白天或晚上的特定时间看到光，以适应他们的——
Absolutely
绝对
...
...
their schedule.
他们的日程安排。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
What is the proper way to interact with light in the first......
首先与光交互的正确方式是什么......
part of the day.
一天的一部分。
Honestly, I think the easiest thing is waking up.
老实说，我认为最简单的事情就是醒来。
Get as much light as you can.
获得尽可能多的光线。
Into your eyes?
进入你的眼睛？
Yeah, it's really nice.
是的，这真的很好。
Your system is primed.
您的系统已准备就绪。
If you're entrained, it's primed to get light.
如果你被夹带，它就准备好迎接光。
The sun should be out.
太阳应该出来了。
Even when it's cloudy, you're going to get enough intensity to help you adjust your cycle to the day night cycle.
即使是多云的时候，您也会获得足够的强度来帮助您将周期调整为昼夜周期。
These are general rules of thumb, but-
这些是一般经验法则，但是-
Absolutely
绝对
...
...
how long do you recommend people go outside?
您建议人们外出多长时间？
So, if you do it daily, I would say 15 minutes.
所以，如果你每天都这样做，我会说 15 分钟。
If you don't do it daily, you may want to increase it.
如果您不是每天都这样做，您可能需要增加它。
You do it more, it doesn't hurt.
你多做一点，就不会痛了。
And I'll tell you, if you're sensitive, don't- you don't even have to go in the sun.
我会告诉你，如果你很敏感，就不要——你甚至不必去晒太阳。
You could be in the shade.
你可能在树荫下。
There's going to be so many photons out there in the shade.
阴影中将会有很多光子。
It's going to be perfect.
一切都会很完美。
Okay.
好的。
And if, um, for some reason one finds themself very far north and it's very, very dense, uh, cloud cover, how long and at what point should somebody consider using an artificial light source to mimic the sunlight?
如果，嗯，由于某种原因，人们发现自己在很远的北方，而且非常非常浓密，呃，云层覆盖，那么人们应该考虑使用人造光源来模仿阳光多长时间以及在什么时候？
Yeah.
是的。
Honestly, this is where we don't have a lot of information still, because this is where we're going to discuss this maybe in more detail, that if you put humans in artificial conditions, the circadian system is very sensitive to light.
老实说，这是我们仍然没有很多信息的地方，因为这是我们将要更详细地讨论的地方，如果将人类置于人工条件下，昼夜节律系统对光非常敏感。
But in reality, in the real environment, light also is affecting other aspects that are independent of the setting of the circadian pacemaker.
但实际上，在真实环境中，光还会影响与昼夜节律起搏器设置无关的其他方面。
Okay.
好的。
And these which we call the direct effect of light on mood, for example.
例如，我们称之为光对情绪的直接影响。
So, that is very hard to figure out what intensity you need to use.
所以，很难弄清楚你需要使用什么强度。
And we haven't done enough experiments, because the system has been discovered just recently.
我们还没有做足够的实验，因为这个系统最近才被发现。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
But yeah, I mean, if you're...
但是，是的，我的意思是，如果你...
Honestly, if you're that far north and you're in the winter and you want to get- make sure you don't...
老实说，如果你在那么远的北方，而且你正值冬天，而你想要——确保你不……
Use these light boxes.
使用这些灯箱。
I, I would suggest that, personally.
我个人建议这样做。
Okay, so I think we've, um, have nailed down that first part of the day.
好吧，我想我们已经，嗯，已经确定了今天的第一部分。
Basically, it's get 10 to 30 minutes, depending on how bright it is, and try and do that as r- as often as possible to give the system a regular s-
基本上，它需要 10 到 30 分钟，具体取决于它的亮度，并尝试尽可能频繁地执行此操作，以便为系统提供常规的 s-
Daily is the best.
日常是最好的。
This system is really about...
这个系统实际上是关于...
And, and you'll see that even for the effect on depression, it's about multiple days is this...
而且，你会发现，即使是对抑郁症的影响，也需要好几天……
So, you don't have to worry if you missed it one day.
所以，如果有一天你错过了，你也不用担心。
You know, stay longer if you want.
你知道，如果你愿意的话，可以呆得更久。
But if you're in a hurry and you want to do other stuff, that's a great recommendation.
但如果您赶时间并且想做其他事情，这是一个很好的建议。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
So, you might want to compensate with some extra time if you miss a day or two.
因此，如果您错过了一两天，您可能需要一些额外的时间来弥补。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
I've heard you say before, it's entirely possible to get severely jet lagged without traveling.
我以前听你说过，如果不旅行的话，完全有可能出现严重的时差反应。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Simply by staying in, being on your phone too much-
只需待在家里，过多地使用手机-
Absolutely
绝对
...
...
not getting the sunlight.
得不到阳光。
And you saw this during the pandemic.
你在大流行期间看到了这一点。
Right.
正确的。
A lot of people mentioned that their sleep wake cycles suffered a lot.
很多人提到他们的睡眠觉醒周期受到很大影响。
Uh, because if you're not going out and if you're staying at home and you don't have big windows and you're waking late, waking up late, and then you're using very bright light 'til late at night, your body's gonna shift.
呃，因为如果你不出去，呆在家里，没有大窗户，你起得很晚，起得很晚，然后你使用非常明亮的光线直到深夜，你的身体就会发生变化。
And now, your day is gonna start, instead of like really when the sun comes up, let's say, at 6 o'clock in the morning, it's gonna...
现在，你的一天就要开始了，而不是像真正的太阳升起时那样，比方说，早上 6 点，它会......
So, your day is gonna start at 11 o'clock in the morning.
所以，你的一天将从上午 11 点开始。
That's what your body's gonna think is the beginning of the day.
这就是你的身体认为的一天的开始。
So, then you're not going to be able to sleep at 10 o'clock at night, because now that's really...
所以，那么你晚上十点就睡不着了，因为现在真的......
For y- for your body, it's completely different timing.
对于你的身体来说，这是完全不同的时间。
There is this idea of chronotypes.
有这种时间类型的想法。
That we all each intrinsically have a, a best rhythm of either being a morning person, uh, you called yourself an early person, or a night owl, or more of a kind of standard, you know, to bed around 10:30, up around 7:00 type, um, thing.
我们每个人本质上都有一个最好的节奏，要么是早起的人，呃，你称自己为早起的人，要么是夜猫子，或者更多的是一种标准，你知道，10:30 左右睡觉，7:00 左右起床，嗯，事情。
And the f- and I think there are now good data, correct me if I'm wrong, from the National Institutes of Mental Health and elsewhere showing that the more we deviate from that intrinsic rhythm, the more mental health issues and physical health issues start to crop up.
我认为现在有来自美国国立心理健康研究所和其他地方的良好数据，如果我错了请纠正我，表明我们越偏离这种内在节奏，就越多的心理健康问题和身体健康问题开始出现。
So, there is great data on this, and there is couple of things that complicate this.
因此，这方面有大量的数据，但有一些事情使这个问题变得复杂。
The first is, the people who usually are late-
首先是那些经常迟到的人——
What, what do you mean?
什么，你什么意思？
That means-
这意味着——
People that wake up late and go to sleep late?
那些起得晚、睡得晚的人？
Go to sleep late and wake up late, they u- they have an overwhelmingly higher level of depression, because human notice that people who go to sleep early and wake up early, they do better in life.
晚睡晚起，他们的抑郁程度明显更高，因为人们注意到早睡早起的人生活得更好。
They noticed that.
他们注意到了这一点。
They just perform better.
他们只是表现得更好。
They perform...
他们表演...
But the question is, is, is that intrinsic to the system or is that society?
但问题是，这是体制固有的还是社会固有的？
Because societies start things usually early or late.
因为社会通常很早或很晚开始做事。
That's a hard question to answer.
这是一个很难回答的问题。
We discriminate against late risers.
我们歧视晚起的人。
We...
我们...
In a way, we discriminate.
在某种程度上，我们存在歧视。
And I'm not so sure that the circadian system is that variable in the human population.
我不太确定昼夜节律系统是否是人类中的变量。
I mean, clearly there are maybe some genetic factors that make a small percentage of like everything with a bell shape.
我的意思是，很明显，可能有一些遗传因素导致一小部分人具有钟形形状。
But I think most of the time, the light environment may play a role.
但我认为大多数时候，光环境可能会发挥作用。
And once, as we've- as we've talked about, this is a long-term effect of light.
正如我们所讨论的，这是光的长期影响。
Once you get into a rhythm, it's hard to break out of that rhythm, because if you start sleeping late and waking up late, you're not getting the morning sunlight.
一旦你进入一种节奏，就很难打破这种节奏，因为如果你开始晚睡晚起，你就无法享受到早晨的阳光。
Right.
正确的。
And so, you, you're just gonna be late.
所以，你，你就会迟到了。
It seems to me is the case is that the only way to really know if you're meant to be an early bird, as they call it, an early person or a late person, or somewhere in between, is to get morning sunlight and figure out whether or not that makes you feel better.
在我看来，真正了解自己是否注定要成为早起的鸟儿（他们称之为早起者或迟到者，或介于两者之间）的唯一方法就是获得早晨的阳光，并弄清楚这是否会让您感觉更好。
So, what should people do in the a- afternoon/evening time, in terms of their light viewing behavior?
那么，人们在下午/晚上的时间里，在光观看行为方面应该做什么呢？
I mean, the best thing to do is to let the natural light creep in, into darkness, right?
我的意思是，最好的办法就是让自然光渗入黑暗，对吗？
That would be the best.
那是最好的。
But clearly, that would be inefficient.
但显然，这样做效率很低。
You, you wanna go home, you wanna read, you wanna talk to your kids, you wanna talk to your family.
你，你想回家，你想读书，你想和你的孩子说话，你想和你的家人说话。
So, I think, you know, it's nice to extend the day.
所以，我认为，延长一天的时间是件好事。
I don't think that's wrong, if you somehow can block that light from affecting your circadian clock.
如果你能以某种方式阻止光线影响你的生物钟，我认为这没有错。
You do keep your home quite dim to dark at night.
晚上你确实把家里保持得很暗。
Yeah.
是的。
I am an extreme, but I measured it for myself and I asked Reju, my wife, if she's okay with it.
我是一个极端的人，但我自己衡量了一下，然后问我的妻子 Reju，她是否同意。
She also liked the dimness.
她也喜欢这种昏暗的感觉。
Both of us can see well in, in dim conditions.
在昏暗的条件下，我们俩都能看得很清楚。
But I think you have to measure it for yourself.
但我认为你必须自己衡量一下。
You really have to do...
你真的必须做...
It's a very simple experiment.
这是一个非常简单的实验。
Just try to dim the light as much as you can.
只要尝试尽可能调暗灯光即可。
I, I call it the minimum amount of light you require to see comfortably.
我，我称之为舒适观看所需的最低光量。
You know, use red light that is very dim if you want to keep the room for sleeping.
你知道，如果你想保持房间睡觉，就使用非常暗的红灯。
R- red light that is very dim has very small effect on, on, on circadian clock.
R- 非常暗淡的红光对生物钟的影响非常小。
And below 10 lux of red light literally doesn't affect sleep at all.
低于 10 勒克斯的红光根本不会影响睡眠。
So, there are ways to do it.
所以，有一些方法可以做到这一点。
I've seen you check your phone after dark-
我见过你在天黑后查看手机-
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
...
...
once or twice.
一次或两次。
Um, and you did it by sort of......
嗯，你是通过某种......
pointing your phone away from you, right?
将手机远离您，对吗？
Exactly.
确切地。
Yeah.
是的。
It actually makes sense that, you know, if you shine a flashlight in your eye, it's much brighter than if you shine a flashlight on the ground.
这实际上是有道理的，你知道，如果你用手电筒照射你的眼睛，它会比你用手电筒照在地面上要亮得多。
Light only go in direct line, so if you just look on the side, most of the light is going to go this way and you're only seeing this.
光线只能沿直线传播，所以如果您只看侧面，大部分光线都会朝这边传播，而您只能看到这一点。
Yeah.
是的。
And, and even when I check sometimes, I check it so fast and switch it off so fast.
而且，即使我有时检查，我也会很快地检查并关闭它。
So ideally I should not check iPhones and iPads.
所以理想情况下我不应该检查 iPhone 和 iPad。
I don't use iPad at night because it's hard to lower it enough 'cause it's, uh, huge.
我晚上不使用 iPad，因为很难将其降低到足够低的高度，因为它太大了。
But even my iPhone, I try not to use it at night.
但即使是我的 iPhone，我也尽量不在晚上使用它。
You had a, what I consider absolutely landmark beautiful paper published in Nature a few years ago, showing that if you disrupt the exposure to light or the timing of the exposure to light, that there are dramatic effects on the stress system and on the learning and memory system.
几年前，您在《自然》杂志上发表了一篇我认为绝对具有里程碑意义的美丽论文，表明如果您破坏光线照射或照射光线的时间，会对压力系统以及学习和记忆系统产生巨大影响。
So, if I interpret that correctly, that could mean that when we view light and how much light could make us feel happier or less happy or even depressed, stressed, learning, et cetera.
所以，如果我解释正确的话，这可能意味着当我们看到光时，以及光的多少可以让我们感到更快乐或不那么快乐，甚至感到沮丧、压力、学习等等。
Bingo.
宾果游戏。
Independent-
独立-
Even if we're sleeping and waking up at the appropriate times.
即使我们在适当的时间睡觉和醒来。
Bingo.
宾果游戏。
I mean, eventually, because we're talking about the whole system, eventually when you start having the other problems, you also develop sleep problems.
我的意思是，最终，因为我们正在谈论整个系统，最终当你开始遇到其他问题时，你也会出现睡眠问题。
But you're absolutely right.
但你是绝对正确的。
And in fact now research from Diego Fernandez in the lab ha- have found that now we know that they actually require different brain regions.
事实上，迭戈·费尔南德斯实验室的研究发现，现在我们知道它们实际上需要不同的大脑区域。
So, we don't only have a theory, we don't only have a light environment that show they can be dissociated, we know that they use completely different brain regions.
所以，我们不仅有一个理论，我们不仅有一个表明它们可以分离的光环境，我们知道它们使用完全不同的大脑区域。
So, the SCN that I told you about earlier, the place where the central pacemaker is, the one that receives direct input from the retina through the ipRCGs to adjust your circadian clock is not the area that receives the light input for mood regulation.
所以，我之前告诉你的 SCN，即中央起搏器所在的地方，通过 ipRCG 接收来自视网膜的直接输入以调整生物钟的区域，并不是接收用于情绪调节的光输入的区域。
It's a completely different brain region.
这是一个完全不同的大脑区域。
And what's really amazing, this region also receives direct input from the ipRCGs but projects to areas in the brain that are known to regulate mood, including the ventral medial prefrontal c- prefrontal cortex, which has been studied for many years to be impacted in a human depression.
真正令人惊奇的是，该区域也接收来自 ipRCG 的直接输入，但投射到大脑中已知调节情绪的区域，包括腹侧内侧前额叶 c-前额叶皮层，多年来一直在研究该区域在人类抑郁症中受到的影响。
So just by, by this amazing serendipity to find that a region that is so deep in the advanced brain, like the me- the prefrontal cortex is your executive brain, one of the most elaborated in humans, to see that they receive input from these ancient photoreceptor was stunning to us.
因此，通过这个令人惊奇的偶然发现，在高级大脑中如此深处的一个区域，就像我一样，前额叶皮层是你的执行大脑，是人类最复杂的大脑之一，看到它们从这些古老的感光器接收输入，这对我们来说是令人震惊的。
How does that finding inform daily protocols for you or for other people?
这一发现如何为您或其他人的日常习惯提供指导？
So that's why we came up with the tripartite model because as a circadian biologist, I only thought of light through the circadian clock affecting behavior.
这就是我们提出三方模型的原因，因为作为一名昼夜节律生物学家，我只认为光通过昼夜节律钟影响行为。
As a sleep biologist, they only thought of the homeostatic drive affecting sleep, affecting behavior.
作为睡眠生物学家，他们只想到稳态驱动会影响睡眠、影响行为。
And for people who study light for vision and other, um, they thought only of the environmental input.
对于那些为了视觉和其他目的而研究光的人来说，嗯，他们只考虑了环境输入。
But now if you put them all together, you get with this tripartite model where it's really mind-boggling and it makes so much sense.
但现在如果你把它们放在一起，你就会得到这个三方模型，它真的令人难以置信，而且非常有意义。
The organism doesn't want to depend on a single component, but if you could incorporate these three together, you could have a beautiful system that is well-adapted.
有机体不想依赖于单个组件，但如果您可以将这三个组件整合在一起，您就可以拥有一个适应性强的美丽系统。
So, let me tell you the sleep-wake cycle, right?
那么，让我告诉你睡眠-觉醒周期，对吧？
So, we know there is a homeostatic drive to affect sleep.
因此，我们知道存在影响睡眠的稳态驱动力。
You've had beautiful talks about that.
你们对此进行了精彩的谈话。
Which is basically the longer you're awake-
这基本上就是你醒着的时间越长-
The more you're awake, the more you sleep
醒得越多，睡得就越多
...
...
the more you want to be asleep.
你越想睡觉。
Yeah.
是的。
So that's your homeostatic drive.
这就是你的稳态驱动力。
We've talked about the circadian influence of sleep and the fact that light-dark cycle affect the circadian system, which eventually affects sleep.
我们已经讨论了睡眠对昼夜节律的影响，以及明暗周期影响昼夜节律系统的事实，最终影响睡眠。
So these two components are well-understood.
所以这两个组成部分很好理解。
Now, the third factor is your direct light or environmental input.
现在，第三个因素是您的直接光或环境输入。
How much stress, how much light you get from there also can highly impact sleep.
压力的大小、光线的强度也会极大地影响睡眠。
So even if you have a good circadian and homeostatic drive, if you're getting r- light at the wrong time of the day or if you're being stressed and thinking at the...
因此，即使您有良好的昼夜节律和体内平衡驱动力，如果您在一天中错误的时间使用 r-light，或者如果您感到压力并在正确的时间思考...
then your sleep's going to suffer.
那么你的睡眠就会受到影响。
So you have to think of the three together to have a beautiful sleep-wake cycle.
因此，您必须同时考虑这三者，才能拥有一个美丽的睡眠-觉醒周期。
Let's talk about food and eating and appetite.
我们来谈谈食物以及饮食和食欲。
You had yet another, uh, yes, I, I greatly admire your, your success in th- in this way, yet another incredible discovery showing that there are directs of, direct, excuse me, effects of light on appetite and feeding behavior.
你还有另一个，呃，是的，我，我非常钦佩你，你在这方面的成功——以这种方式，又一个令人难以置信的发现，表明光对食欲和进食行为有直接的、直接的影响。
So, for somebody who's interested in affecting their eating behavior, how should they use light in order to adjust their eating behavior?
那么，对于那些有兴趣影响饮食行为的人来说，他们应该如何利用光来调整他们的饮食行为呢？
Right.
正确的。
So now that I've told you about all these interaction between the different inputs to the circadian clock, just you think about it as an engineer, what would be the best thing?
现在我已经告诉您生物钟不同输入之间的所有这些相互作用，您作为一名工程师来思考一下，什么是最好的事情？
The best thing is to know when your food times happen in the day, when should you get light, and where is your circad- when is your circadian clock in your system, right?
最好的事情是知道一天中您的进食时间是什么时候，您什么时候应该接受光照，以及您的生物钟在哪里 - 您的系统中的生物钟是什么时候，对吗？
So, if you eat at very specific times of the day, that's another signal that is telling your body, your clock, "You're in a certain time of the day." So if you're having lunch at the correct time every day and you're getting bright light, now you have two systems that are informing your clock.
所以，如果你在一天中的特定时间吃东西，那就是另一个信号，告诉你的身体、你的生物钟，“你正处于一天中的特定时间。”因此，如果您每天在正确的时间吃午餐并且光线明亮，那么现在您有两个系统可以通知您的时钟。
Your clock is going to be better.
你的时钟会更好。
So regular mealtimes?
那么吃饭时间规律吗？
Regular mealtimes that fit your circadian clock.
适合您生物钟的规律进餐时间。
So, and in fact, if you do that, wh- when I started doing this and it helped me lose weight, is that I'm exposing myself to the right amount of light-dark cycle, I'm eating at regular time, it is amazing.
所以，事实上，如果你这样做，当我开始这样做并且它帮助我减肥时，我让自己暴露在适量的光暗循环中，我按时吃饭，这真是太神奇了。
You will be not hungry.
你不会饿的。
Let's say, let's say you eat at noon.
假设你中午吃饭。
You will not feel any hunger at 11:45, and then all of a sudden the hunger jumps.
11点45分你不会感到任何饥饿，然后突然饥饿感猛增。
This is clearly not an energy issue-
这显然不是能源问题——
Right
右
...
...
because it could not be that drastic.
因为事情不可能那么激烈。
Right.
正确的。
No, the desire to eat is mainly driven by these, uh, these cues, these hormone cues that are very exquisitely timed to-
不，吃东西的欲望主要是由这些，呃，这些线索，这些激素线索驱动的，这些线索的时机非常巧妙——
Exactly
正是如此
...
...
sleep-wake cycle but also to light.
睡眠觉醒周期也要轻。
Exactly.
确切地。
How regular are you, or do you recommend people be about mealtimes?
您的作息规律如何，或者您是否建议人们遵守进餐时间？
Are we talking about down to the minute?
我们谈论的是具体细节吗？
Like, if I-
就像，如果我——
Absolutely not
绝对不是
...
...
all right.
好吧。
Plus or- so, 12 noon is my normal lunch, let's say.
比如说，中午 12 点是我的正常午餐。
Uh, plus or minus?
呃，加还是减？
Half an hour.
半小时。
Okay.
好的。
Yeah.
是的。
So, eat around- between 11:30 and 12:30?
那么，在 11:30 到 12:30 之间吃东西吗？
If, if that's the time.
如果，如果那个时候的话。
And it depends, if you also do multiple meals.
这取决于您是否也多餐。
Remember, three meals, that's decision that somebody came up with, I don't know why.
记住，三顿饭，这是有人做出的决定，我不知道为什么。
Nowadays, people are- fewer people are doing that, I think.
现在，我认为这样做的人越来越少了。
Yeah.
是的。
So-
所以——
Gi- given our friend Satchin Panda's work.
Gi- 送给我们的朋友 Satchin Panda 的作品。
Right.
正确的。
Right.
正确的。
I mean, so you could have two meals, you could have very multiple s- meals that are distributed across your active time.
我的意思是，你可以吃两顿饭，也可以吃很多顿饭，这些饭菜分布在你的活动时间内。
Some people are not hungry early in the day.
有些人一大早就不饿。
They might be-
他们可能是——
Exactly
正是如此
...
...
late shifted people.
晚换班的人。
Exactly.
确切地。
In which case, eating later in the day will, will work well for them.
在这种情况下，当天晚些时候吃东西对他们来说会有很好的效果。
Will work, work as long as they don't eat early in the morning.
只要他们早上不吃饭就会工作，工作。
That's just, you have to work with your schedule, with your active schedule.
只是，你必须按照你的日程安排、你的活动日程安排来工作。
What we're talking about really is finding your ideal sleep schedule.
我们真正讨论的是找到您理想的睡眠时间表。
Exactly.
确切地。
Exactly.
确切地。
And finding your ideal eating schedule.
并找到您理想的饮食计划。
Exactly.
确切地。
And understanding how those two things interact.
并了解这两件事如何相互作用。
And, you know, the nice thing, as you said, finding them out is going to help you to understand how they interact because we know from the tripartite model that they are all interconnected.
而且，您知道，正如您所说，找到它们将帮助您了解它们如何相互作用，因为我们从三方模型中知道它们都是相互关联的，这是件好事。
And for each person, they're going to be interconnected differently.
对于每个人来说，他们的相互联系都是不同的。
It's striking to me that in all animals besides humans, if they deviate too much from the appropriate exposure to light and light-dark cycle, they essentially don't mate and/or die and/or get killed off.
令我惊讶的是，除了人类之外的所有动物，如果它们过多地偏离适当的光照和光暗循环，它们基本上不会交配和/或死亡和/或被杀死。
But in humans, we are able to override that at least to some extent.
但对于人类来说，我们至少在某种程度上能够克服这一点。
But the ways in which we suffer appear to be things like obesity, metabolic syndromes-
但我们遭受痛苦的方式似乎是肥胖、代谢综合症——
Yeah
是啊
...
...
uh, reproductive syndromes that are accompany the other syndromes, you know, endocrine syndromes, and mood and depressive disorders.
呃，生殖综合症伴随着其他综合症，你知道，内分泌综合症，以及情绪和抑郁症。
Is there any effort at the level of the, the nationally or, or laboratories that you're aware of, to try and use light in order to improve mood and mental health?
据您所知，国家层面或实验室层面是否有努力尝试使用光来改善情绪和心理健康？
I mean, honestly, this is my moonshot.
老实说，我的意思是，这是我的登月计划。
This is the thing that I think people...
这就是我认为人们...
Because it's...
因为它是...
I, I, I say, "Don't take a pill, take a photon." Uh, not...
我，我，我说，“不要吃药，吃光子。”呃，不...
I mean, you take pills.
我的意思是，你吃药。
It's important.
这很重要。
I'm just making it that really we have an opportunity righ- right now with the incredible advances of LED lights, of changing spectral of light, of regulating intensities.
我只是想说，随着 LED 灯、改变光谱和调节强度的令人难以置信的进步，我们现在确实有一个机会。
And just to assu- just for simple changes you could really improve sleep-wake cycle, productivity.
只是为了保证——仅仅通过简单的改变，你就可以真正改善睡眠-觉醒周期和生产力。
And still you could actually get more done because as we've talked about, when you have all these messed up, now you have to sleep more, but your sleep is fragmented.
而且你实际上仍然可以完成更多工作，因为正如我们所讨论的，当你把所有这些搞砸时，现在你必须睡得更多，但你的睡眠是支离破碎的。
It's not very good.
这不太好。
And you can't focus when you're used to that.
当你习惯了之后你就无法集中注意力。
And you can't focus when you don't have alertness when you need the alertness.
当你需要警觉时却没有警觉，你就无法集中注意力。
So, having all these you...
所以，拥有所有这些你...
Could allow you to do even more actually at the end than less.
可以让你在最后实际上做得更多而不是更少。
And that's the, the exciting part of it.
这就是其中令人兴奋的部分。
Let's talk about jet lag.
我们来谈谈时差。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
What are the two or three things that people can do to adjust their schedule quickly?
人们可以做哪两三件事来快速调整自己的日程安排？
Like, let's say fall classes are starting.
比如说，秋季课程即将开始。
You start a new job, or you have a baby or a puppy or whatever.
你开始一份新工作，或者你有了一个孩子或一只小狗或其他什么。
What is the best way to shift the clock quickly?
快速调整时钟的最佳方法是什么？
So, it's very simple, as we've talked yesterday.
正如我们昨天所说，这非常简单。
So, imagine you're in, in the outside with no environmental...
所以，想象一下你在外面，没有环境......
With no industrial light.
没有工业灯。
If you, if your body thinks you're in early evening and you see a bright light, what does this tell you?
如果你，如果你的身体认为你正处于傍晚并且看到明亮的光线，这告诉你什么？
"Oh, wait.
“哦，等等。
This is not early evening yet.
现在还不是傍晚。
It's still early afternoon or late afternoon.
现在还是下午早些时候或傍晚。
So, I have to delay my clock to go back to late afternoon." So, if you get light early in the evening, it delays your clock.
所以，我必须推迟时钟，回到下午晚些时候。”因此，如果您在晚上较早天亮，您的生物钟就会延迟。
So, what does-
那么，什么是——
Meaning that makes you want to go to sleep later?
这意味着你想晚点睡觉吗？
Yes.
是的。
It delays your clock.
它会延迟你的时钟。
So, later in the night, later in your night, and actually just happens that the humans you get a temperature نديه later in the night.
所以，在深夜，在你的深夜，实际上碰巧你在深夜晚些时候测得体温。
Temp- low temperature in your body.
温度 - 体内的低温。
After that, light start advancing your clock.
之后，光线开始推进你的时钟。
If I understand correctly, what you're saying is,
如果我理解正确的话，你的意思是，
if your typical wake-up time is, say, 7:00 AM, then your low point in temperature probably occurs somewhere around 5:00 AM?
如果您的典型起床时间是上午 7:00，那么您的体温最低点可能出现在上午 5:00 左右？
Yeah.
是的。
And if you view light right abou- around then, it's going to essentially advance your clock.
如果你在那时看到光，它会本质上提前你的时钟。
Yeah.
是的。
Because then your, your body thinks, "Oh, it's seven o'clock." So, it advance your clock by one to two hours.
因为那时你的身体会想，“哦，现在是七点了。”因此，它会使您的时钟提前一到两个小时。
But if I were to view light, say, at 3:00 AM, then it would probably delay my clock?
但如果我要在凌晨 3:00 观看光线，那么它可能会延迟我的时钟？
Yeah.
是的。
Okay.
好的。
Yeah.
是的。
So, and then let's say I land in a new schedule.
那么，假设我制定了新的时间表。
I want to adjust to a new schedule.
我想适应新的时间表。
Let's say I didn't manage to do anything with my light viewing before I went and I didn't d- I didn't anticipate the trip.
假设我在去之前没有对光观察做任何事情，而且我没有——我没有预料到这次旅行。
Suddenly, I'm on a new schedule, okay?
突然之间，我有了新的日程安排，好吗？
I was told that one of the ways to help shift the clock and to avoid gastrointestinal issues is to eat on the local schedule.
有人告诉我，帮助改变时钟和避免肠胃问题的方法之一就是按照当地的时间表吃饭。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
To start basically behaving like a local.
开始基本上表现得像当地人一样。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Even though your circadian clock will take a little bit of time to catch up.
即使您的生物钟需要一点时间才能跟上。
Right.
正确的。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
But, you have to remember the light, right?
但是，你必须记住光线，对吗？
So, let's, let's...
那么，让我们，让我们...
Now that we explained it very simply, let's take a very simple example, right?
既然我们已经解释得很简单了，那我们就举一个非常简单的例子吧？
New York to Italy.
纽约飞往意大利。
That's a simple example.
这是一个简单的例子。
New York time, Italy time, six-hour difference, right?
纽约时间，意大利时间，相差六个小时吧？
So, let's say you fly from New York at night.
假设您晚上从纽约起飞。
You reach Italy at eight o'clock in the morning.
您早上八点到达意大利。
What is the time in your New York time?
你的纽约时间是几点？
You...
你...
Although you reach-
虽然你达到了——
Six hours back.
六个小时前。
Six hours back.
六个小时前。
It's 2:00 a.m.
现在是凌晨 2:00。
in the mor-
在明天
It's 2:00 AM.
现在是凌晨 2:00。
So, when you land Italy, you want to avoid light like the plague.
所以，当你登陆意大利时，你要像躲避瘟疫一样避开光线。
Yeah, you could eat, but you really don't want to get a light.
是的，你可以吃东西，但你真的不想点灯。
Right.
正确的。
'Cause otherwise it's going to delay you.
因为不然会耽误你的。
It's going to delay you.
会耽误你的。
It's going to send you to California instead of sending you to Italy.
它将把你送到加利福尼亚而不是把你送到意大利。
Right.
正确的。
What Samer's saying is so crucial.
萨默的话至关重要。
Just because getting bright light in your eyes early in the day is really beneficial when you're at home, when you travel to a new time zone, you have to take into account where your body thinks you are.
因为当您在家时，早上让明亮的光线进入您的眼睛确实有益，所以当您前往一个新的时区时，您必须考虑您的身体认为您所在的位置。
Exactly.
确切地。
And so if you're looking at the Italian sunrise, having just flown from New York to Italy, and you didn't prepare for that trip by waking up a little bit earlier in anticipation.
因此，如果您刚刚从纽约飞往意大利，正在观看意大利日出，并且您没有提前起床来为这次旅行做好准备。
Multiple days, yeah.
好几天了，是的。
And you view light at 2:00 a.m.
您会在凌晨 2:00 看到光线。
excuse me, at s- at 6:00 or 7:00 AM Italian time, beautiful Italian sunrise, you are going to delay your clock.
对不起，意大利时间上午 6:00 或 7:00，美丽的意大利日出，您的时钟要延迟了。
You're going to basically throw yourself back to California, but you are in Italy.
你基本上会把自己扔回加利福尼亚，但你是在意大利。
You're going to throw your biology back to California, and you are going to be up in the middle of the Italian night, and you're going to be uh, uh-
你会把你的生物学扔回加利福尼亚，你会在意大利的半夜起床，你会呃，呃-
Miserable.
惨了。
Uh, miserable.
呃，惨了。
It's very important......
非常重要......
to avoid getting the wrong light information when you're trying to adjust your body, because otherwise it shifts you to the other, to the other cycle.
以避免在您尝试调整身体时获得错误的光信息，否则它会将您转移到另一个、另一个周期。
Absolutely right.
完全正确。
You are one of these people that has such vigor.
你是那些拥有如此活力的人之一。
I think a lot of your ability to work hard and focus and really do so many things at an impressive level is because you think about these issues and you, you think about when you're going to be optimal for focus, when you're going to be optimal for exercise, when...
我认为你努力工作、集中注意力、真正以令人印象深刻的水平做很多事情的能力，是因为你思考这些问题，你思考什么时候你会最集中注意力，什么时候你会最适合锻炼，什么时候......
And the when is the key.
而何时是关键。
It's-
这是——
Right.
对。
And I think a lot of people live in the landscape of feeling like there's something broken inside them.
我认为很多人生活在这样的环境中，感觉自己内心有什么东西破碎了。
I really agree with you that I think part of the reason I'm continuing to be able to do this that I really think about it and I make sure that I keep everything aligned.
我真的同意你的观点，我认为我能够继续做到这一点的部分原因是我认真思考了这一点，并确保我保持一切一致。
And, and that actually helps me a lot.
而且，这实际上对我有很大帮助。
Like, I don't suffer in sleep, I don't suffer in waking up.
就像，我在睡觉时不会感到痛苦，在醒来时也不会感到痛苦。
I never use a timer to wake up.
我从不使用定时器来叫醒。
System is so aligned it works.
系统非常一致，可以正常工作。
A lot of times people will say, "How come I go to sleep, I fall asleep fine, but then I wake up at 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning and can't fall back asleep?" Is it possible that those people were supposed to go to bed at 8:00 PM?
很多时候人们会说：“为什么我睡着了，睡得好好的，但是凌晨3：00、4：00就醒了，就再也睡不着了？”那些人有可能应该在晚上 8:00 睡觉吗？
Yeah.
是的。
I mean, it is possible.
我的意思是，这是可能的。
Uh, or it's possible that their clock is completely misaligned that they are getting maybe enough time at night when they are suppose, and then they possibly feel so sleepy in the day.
呃，或者他们的生物钟可能完全错位，他们在晚上可能有足够的时间，而他们在白天可能会感到很困。
So, there...
那么，有...
All these are possible combinations.
所有这些都是可能的组合。
Well, that's an interesting idea I hadn't considered.
嗯，这是一个有趣的想法，我没有考虑过。
So-
所以——
I mean, I-
我的意思是，我——
That what they think is their sleep, their body is so out of whack with the light-dark cycle-
他们所认为的就是他们的睡眠，他们的身体与明暗循环如此不协调——
Right
右
...
...
that it's actually a nap?
这实际上是小睡吗？
A nap or, or the weaker part of the sleep.
小睡或者睡眠的较弱部分。
I mean, you see this in, in when you travel to different times on before you adjust.
我的意思是，当你在调整之前去不同的时间旅行时，你会看到这一点。
You go to sleep really well, but two hours later, you're fully up.
你睡得很好，但两个小时后，你就完全醒了。
Two hours.
两个小时。
If you were so tired and this is your regular sleep, there's no way you're gonna wake up in two hours.
如果你太累了，而这就是你的常规睡眠，那么你不可能在两个小时内醒来。
Let's talk about seasonality a little bit.
让我们谈谈季节性。
Are there other effects of seasonality on humans that we are aware of?
我们知道季节性对人类还有其他影响吗？
Honestly, you could see it perfectly, I think, in, in Scandinavia.
老实说，我认为在斯堪的纳维亚半岛你可以完美地看到它。
I mean, you could talk to people in, who live in-
我的意思是，你可以和住在-的人交谈
Sure.
当然。
They get seasonal depression.
他们患有季节性抑郁症。
One, seasonal depression is one, but actually when you start asking them questions, they tell you like in the winter, they barely could wake up.
一是季节性抑郁症，但实际上当你开始问他们问题时，他们会告诉你就像在冬天，他们几乎无法醒来。
They barely have the energy.
他们几乎没有精力。
Before even depression, even people who don't get seasonal depression, they'll tell you, "Our energy level is lower.
在抑郁症之前，即使是没有患季节性抑郁症的人，他们也会告诉你，“我们的能量水平较低。
Our ability to go to work is, is not the same." And in the summer, most people actually sleep very little.
我们上班的能力是不一样的。”在夏天，大多数人实际上睡得很少。
They tell you, "We, we really can...
他们告诉你，“我们，我们真的可以......
We, we feel like we're manic.
我们，我们感觉自己很狂躁。
We have all this energy." And not in a negative way, in a funny way, right?
我们拥有所有这些能量。”而且不是以一种消极的方式，以一种有趣的方式，对吧？
I mean, but if you want to sleep, we have to put this curtain.
我的意思是，但是如果你想睡觉，我们就必须拉上窗帘。
I think in these situations, you could really appreciate the seasonality of humans.
我认为在这些情况下，你可以真正体会到人类的季节性。
I think we kind of destroyed our seasonality because we don't get exposed to s- that much natural light.
我认为我们有点破坏了季节性，因为我们没有接触到那么多的自然光。
We have all this artificial light.
我们拥有所有这些人造光。
But I think, honestly, one of the thing that is going to happen if they follow your recommendation, this is going to cause them to also experience some changes across the season.
但老实说，我认为，如果他们遵循你的建议，将会发生的一件事是，这将使他们在整个赛季中经历一些变化。
Because now, they going to see the sun differently.
因为现在，他们会以不同的方式看待太阳。
If you're going to go out in the morning, in the summer, you're going to get a much bright...
如果你在夏天早上出去，你会感到很明亮......
That's why I don't like the change in time.
这就是为什么我不喜欢时间上的改变。
I know people think, "Oh, because you're biased, you..." Because I think-
我知道人们会想，“哦，因为你有偏见，你……”因为我认为——
Wait, wait, wait, wait.
等等，等等，等等，等等。
Sorry, the change in time, you're talking about daylight savings?
抱歉，时间改变了，您是在谈论夏令时吗？
Daylight saving.
夏令时。
It's such a bad idea because it disrupts that rhythm that you're having, 'cause I think your body, if you keep that rhythm, you will see the whole seasonality.
这是一个糟糕的主意，因为它扰乱了你的节奏，因为我认为你的身体，如果你保持这种节奏，你就会看到整个季节性。
And I look at it from a different aspect than other people.
我从与其他人不同的角度来看待它。
If you think about it, Andrew, there is a situation where you're getting light perfectly well, and then all of a sudden they delay it by one hour because...
安德鲁，如果你想一想，有一种情况，你的光线非常好，然后突然他们推迟了一个小时，因为......
And then even though it's the summer, your body now if you're still not adjusting, think, "Oh, wait, what happened?
然后，即使现在是夏天，如果你的身体现在仍未适应，你会想，“哦，等等，发生了什么事？
What kind of happened?"
到底发生了什么事？”
Well, I'm glad you're bringing this up because I always thought, you know, what's the big deal?
嗯，我很高兴你提出这个问题，因为我一直在想，你知道，有什么大不了的？
One hour, right?
一小时吧？
One hour shift.
一小时轮班。
You know, spring forward, fall back.
你知道，向前弹，向后退。
It's so hard to adjust to one hour act.
适应一小时的表演非常困难。
But the, but this goes back to the beginning of our discussion.
但是，但是这又回到了我们讨论的开始。
It's not just one hour.
这不仅仅是一小时。
Right.
正确的。
Because it's one hour across that one day.
因为这一天只有一小时。
Right.
正确的。
But there's this cumulative effect on the clock and these, uh, three elements of your-
但是对时钟有这种累积效应，呃，你的三个元素——
Yeah
是啊
...
...
tripartite model.
三方模型。
Exactly.
确切地。
Like, the homeostatic, sleep, and the light-
比如，体内平衡、睡眠和光线——
Exactly
正是如此
...
...
direct effects on mood.
直接影响心情。
And, and when it's so close, it's sometimes hard to figure out how to adjust it perfectly because, you know, we're already sleep-deprived in our society.
而且，当它如此接近时，有时很难弄清楚如何完美地调整它，因为，你知道，我们的社会已经睡眠不足了。
And then you shift it by...
然后你把它转移...
You know?
你知道吗？
So, it, it just, it all accumulates, and it has no benefit.
所以,它,它只是,这一切都是累积起来的,并没有什么好处。
I just don't understand why they do this.
我只是不明白他们为什么这样做。
It makes no sense.
这毫无意义。
Well, I think that the reason they do it is because they don't understand the biology.
嗯，我认为他们这样做的原因是因为他们不了解生物学。
Exactly.
确切地。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Because one hour seems trivial unless you-
因为一小时似乎微不足道，除非你——
It's not
这不是
...
...
understand the, the repercussions of that one-hour shift.
了解一小时轮班的影响。
Because what's also clear now based on what you're saying is that that one-hour shift is taking you out of alignment with the natural light-dark cycle in exactly the wrong direction.
因为根据你所说的，现在也很清楚的是，一小时的轮班会让你偏离自然的明暗周期，朝着完全错误的方向发展。
It's pushing people to get even later-
它促使人们变得更晚——
Yeah
是啊
...
...
in the summer when light is going to push you later anyway.
在夏天，无论如何，光线都会把你推得更晚。
It's really compounding the problem that already exists.
这确实使已经存在的问题变得更加复杂。
Exactly.
确切地。
Samer, this has been, um, an amazing march through the importance of light.
萨默，嗯，这是一次关于光重要性的惊人的进步。
I'm certain that people are going to start thinking about how to change their relationship with light as a way to anchor everything that they do and that's important to their health.
我确信人们会开始思考如何改变他们与光的关系，以此来锚定他们所做的一切，这对他们的健康很重要。
Let's talk a little bit about where people can find you.
让我们谈谈人们可以在哪里找到您。
Your laboratory is at the National Institutes of Mental Health.
您的实验室位于美国国立心理健康研究所。
He is head of the chronobiology unit, all these things that I've mentioned earlier.
他是时间生物学部门的负责人，所有这些都是我之前提到的。
But, um, you are active on Twitter and Instagram.
但是，嗯，你在 Twitter 和 Instagram 上很活跃。
Right.
正确的。
So, what is your, uh, Twitter handle?
那么，你的 Twitter 用户名是什么？
It's @samerhattar and I think the same for Instagram.
这是@samerhattar，我认为 Instagram 也是如此。
Definitely give him a follow there and on, and on Twitter.
一定要在 Twitter 上关注他。
And, um, and I'm sure that he'll be happy to answer questions-
而且，嗯，我相信他会很乐意回答问题-
Absolutely
绝对
...
...
uh, and ent- entertain any and all discussions about chronobiology.
呃，ent-接受有关时间生物学的所有讨论。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Yep, and light.
是的，还有光。
Yeah.
是的。
Great.
伟大的。
Thank you, Samer.
谢谢你，萨默。
Awesome.
惊人的。
Thank you, Andrew.
谢谢你，安德鲁。