Essentials: Therapy, Treating Trauma & Other Life Challenges | Dr. Paul Conti
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials, where we revisit past episodes for the most potent and actionable science-based tools for mental health, physical health, and performance.
欢迎来到 Huberman Lab Essentials，在这里我们回顾过去的剧集，寻找针对心理健康、身体健康和表现的最有效、最可操作的基于科学的工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Paul Conti.
现在我与保罗·康迪博士进行讨论。
Paul, thank you so much for being here today.
保罗，非常感谢你今天来到这里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, thank you so much for having me.
嗯，非常感谢你邀请我。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
If we could just start off very basic and just get everyone oriented, how should we define trauma?
如果我们可以从非常基本的开始并让每个人都以导向为导向，那么我们应该如何定义创伤？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think we have to look at trauma as not anything negative that happens to us, but something that overwhelms our coping skills and then leaves us different as we move forward.
我认为我们必须将创伤视为发生在我们身上的任何负面事件，而不是那些压倒我们应对技能的东西，然后让我们在前进时变得不同。
So it changes the way that our brains function, and then that change is evident in us as we move forward through life.
因此，它改变了我们大脑的运作方式，并且随着我们在生活中前进，这种变化在我们身上是显而易见的。
We can see it in mood, anxiety, behavior, sleep, physical health.
我们可以在情绪、焦虑、行为、睡眠、身体健康等方面看到它。
So we can identify it, and we can also see it in brain changes.
所以我们可以识别它，我们也可以从大脑的变化中看到它。
If trauma rises to the level of changing the functioning of our brains, then there's almost always a reflex of guilt and shame around the trauma that can lead us, and often leads us to bury it, to avoid it, which is exactly the opposite of what needs to be done.
如果创伤上升到改变我们大脑功能的程度，那么围绕创伤几乎总是会产生内疚和羞耻的反射，这会导致我们，并且常常导致我们埋葬它，避免它，这与需要做的事情恰恰相反。
We need to communicate and put words to what's gone on inside of us.
我们需要沟通并表达我们内心的想法。
And very often, a person knows, but they're not admitting it to themselves because they're afraid of it.
很多时候，一个人知道，但他们不会向自己承认，因为他们害怕。
They don't know what to do.
他们不知道该怎么办。
But if they start talking, then they'll talk about the event or the situation, could be something acute or it could be something chronic, that really has been harmful to them.
但如果他们开始说话，那么他们就会谈论事件或情况，可能是急性的，也可能是慢性的，这确实对他们有害。
And then they feel different afterwards.
然后他们感觉不一样了。
But that doesn't always happen.
但这种情况并不总是发生。
Sometimes it's a process of exploration through dialogue, whether it's written or whether it's spoken, of the person sort of exploring the changes inside of themselves, maybe changes to their self-talk inside, changes to their thoughts about the world, and whether they can navigate safely and readily in it.
有时这是一个通过对话进行探索的过程，无论是书面的还是口头的，人们在某种程度上探索自己内心的变化，也许是他们内心自言自语的变化，他们对世界的想法的变化，以及他们是否能够安全、轻松地在其中航行。
And it anchors as I talk about this, the example I'll use at times is the example of my own life, where when I was much younger, in my early 20s, my younger brother took his life by suicide.
当我谈论这个问题时，我有时会用我自己生活中的例子，当我年轻得多，20岁出头时，我的弟弟自杀了。
And the response of guilt and shame and hiding all of it inside of me was very dramatic, but I wasn't acknowledging it, because I didn't know what to do about it, and I felt guilty, and I felt responsible, and I felt ashamed.
内疚和羞耻以及将所有这些隐藏在我内心的反应非常戏剧性，但我没有承认它，因为我不知道该怎么办，我感到内疚，我感到有责任，我感到羞耻。
So there was an avoidance inside of me.
所以我内心有一种逃避。
So I didn't see that the change was in me, but I was taking care of myself poorly.
所以我没有看到我身上发生了变化，但我照顾不好自己。
There was enough going on that was unhealthy that I couldn't avoid the realization that like, "Hey, I'm different now," and in these ways that are automatic.
有足够多的不健康的事情发生，我无法避免这样的认识：“嘿，我现在不同了，”并且以这些方式，这是自动的。
My reflex to, can I make my way in the world?
我的反应是，我能在这个世界上找到自己的出路吗？
Can I have a good life?
我能过上美好的生活吗？
Can I be happy?
我能幸福吗？
Well, my reflexes to that were all different, and they were coming through the lens of heightened anxiety, heightened vigilance, a sense of guilt, a sense of shame, and a sense of non-belonging in the world.
嗯，我对此的反应各不相同，它们来自高度焦虑、高度警惕、内疚感、羞耻感和不属于这个世界的感觉。
And it was ultimately good and helpful people around me, and my own realization that, hey, things are not going well, that led me to then get some help and to be able to talk about it and realize like, oh my gosh, I need to face these things that are going on inside of me.
最终是我周围的好人和乐于助人的人，以及我自己的认识，嘿，事情进展不顺利，这让我得到了一些帮助，能够谈论它，并意识到，天哪，我需要面对我内心发生的这些事情。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Why do you think that when we experience trauma, these things that we call guilt and shame surface?
你认为为什么当我们经历创伤时，这些我们称之为内疚和羞耻的东西就会浮现出来？
Those emotions must exist in us for some reason.
由于某种原因，这些情绪一定存在于我们身上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
But in this case, it seems like they don't serve us well.
但在这种情况下，他们似乎并没有很好地为我们服务。
So why is it that we seem to be reflexively wired to feel guilty and feel ashamed when that's the exact opposite of what we need to do in the case of trauma?
那么，为什么我们似乎会本能地感到内疚和羞愧，而这与我们在遭受创伤时需要做的恰恰相反呢？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's something adaptive that has happened in us through evolution that now becomes maladaptive in the way we live in the modern world.
通过进化，我们身上发生了一些适应性的事情，但现在却变得不适应我们在现代世界的生活方式。
So if you think of through most of human development, people weren't living that long.
因此，如果你考虑一下人类发展的大部分时间，人们的寿命并没有那么长。
And the idea was to survive and reproduce.
这个想法是为了生存和繁殖。
So traumatic things that happened to us, it would make sense for them to stay with us.
发生在我们身上的创伤如此之大，让他们留在我们身边是有意义的。
So if you ate a new food and got really, really sick, it's like, you better remember that, right?
所以，如果你吃了一种新食物，然后真的病了，你最好记住这一点，对吧？
If you see someone from the group of people a couple miles away, and one of those people attacks you, it's like, you better remember that.
如果你看到几英里外人群中的某个人，其中一个人攻击你，你最好记住这一点。
So the traumatic things that are sort of emblazoned in our brain are built to last.
因此，铭刻在我们大脑中的创伤性事物注定会持续存在。
Things that are positive will generate some emotion inside of us, but things that are profoundly negative are much more likely to stay with us.
积极的事情会在我们内心产生一些情绪，但极度消极的事情更有可能留在我们身边。
And I think that that was adaptive, when all of that was about survival.
我认为这是适应性的，因为这一切都是为了生存。
And I think the same thing is true with, say, shame.
我认为同样的事情也适用于羞耻感。
The limbic system, the system often is called the emotion system in our brains, has actually, of course, varying function.
当然，边缘系统，通常被称为我们大脑中的情感系统，实际上具有不同的功能。
And one aspect is affect.
一方面是影响。
So affect is aroused in us.
这样我们的情感就被激发起来了。
It's created in us without our choice.
它是在我们体内创造出来的，无需我们的选择。
So if we're walking down the road and someone jumps in front of us or pushes us, then there's a response of fear, anger.
因此，如果我们走在路上，有人跳到我们前面或推我们，那么我们就会产生恐惧、愤怒的反应。
Heart starts beating faster, more blood to the muscles.
心脏开始跳动得更快，更多的血液流向肌肉。
We're getting ready to fight or run.
我们正准备战斗或逃跑。
And then we become aware of it.
然后我们就会意识到这一点。
So the aroused affect in us is also about survival, and it has a very deep impact upon us, and shame is an aroused affect.
所以我们内心的唤起感也是关乎生存的，它对我们的影响非常深，而羞耻感就是一种唤起感。
So it can be raised in us without our choice, and it's very powerful, which if you think about that, is an extremely strong deterrent.
所以它可以在我们不经选择的情况下在我们体内产生，而且它非常强大，如果你想一想，这是一个极其强大的威慑力。
Imagine a tribe or group of people that are sheltered together, and someone eats half the food at night or something.
想象一下，一个部落或一群人被庇护在一起，有人在晚上吃掉一半的食物或其他什么。
And there's a very negative response.
并且有非常负面的回应。
And that person feels shame because shame is so powerful to control behavior.
这个人会感到羞耻，因为羞耻对于控制行为有如此强大的力量。
So the way that trauma can change our brains and stay with us in a way that says, "Be more vigilant.
因此，创伤可以改变我们的大脑，并以一种“更加警惕”的方式陪伴我们。
Look at the world in a different way.
以不同的方式看待世界。
Act more defensively." And how that links to shame and to guilt.
采取更加防御性的行动。”以及这与羞耻和内疚有何联系。
And then guilt becomes what gets called feeling, technically, where we relate the aroused affect to ourselves Right?
然后内疚就变成了所谓的感觉，从技术上讲，我们将所唤起的情感与我们自己联系起来，对吗？
So shame, the aroused affect, and guilt, the next step, when the shame gets related to self, are such profound behavioral interventions and deterrents that you can see, I think, how evolutionarily, kind of all makes sense.
因此，当羞耻与自我相关时，羞耻，被激发的情感，以及下一步的内疚，都是如此深刻的行为干预和威慑，我认为，你可以看到，从进化的角度来看，这一切都是有道理的。
If we're fighting for survival, and we're an elder statesman if we make it to 20, this makes sense.
如果我们是在为生存而战，而且如果我们能活到 20 岁，我们就是一位元老政治家，这是有道理的。
But it doesn't make sense in a world where we live much longer, we navigate in all sorts of different ways, and there's so much coming at us that can be traumatizing.
但在一个我们寿命更长、以各种不同方式航行、有太多事情向我们袭来、可能造成创伤的世界里，这是没有意义的。
Our brains are built to change from trauma, but not in the way we experience trauma and not in the way that we live life in terms of the nature of living life and the duration of life in the modern world, where these traumas that happen to us are often so bad for us because they change how our brain is functioning, and then our entire orientation to the world is different, and that could be for years and years.
我们的大脑是为了从创伤中改变而生的，但不是以我们经历创伤的方式，也不是以现代世界生命的本质和寿命的方式来改变我们的生活方式，在现代世界中，发生在我们身上的这些创伤往往对我们来说非常糟糕，因为它们改变了我们大脑的运作方式，然后我们对世界的整个方向就不同了，而且这种情况可能会持续很多年。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。
Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.
去年，在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我成为了 Function 成员。
Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health.
Function 提供 100 多项高级实验室测试，为您提供整个身体健康状况的关键快照。
This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more.
此快照为您提供有关心脏健康、激素健康、免疫功能、营养水平等方面的见解。
Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas.
Function 不仅提供对您的身心健康至关重要的 100 多种生物标记物的测试，而且还分析这些结果并提供相关领域专家的顶级医生的见解。
For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood.
例如，在我第一次使用 Function 进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量升高。
Function not only helped me detect that but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification.
功能不仅帮助我发现了这一点，还提供了如何最好地降低汞含量的见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼消费，我一直在吃大量金枪鱼，同时还努力多吃绿叶蔬菜并补充 NAC、N-乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒。
And I should say, by taking a second Function test, that approach worked.
我应该说，通过进行第二次功能测试，这种方法奏效了。
Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important.
全面的血液检测至关重要。
There are so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test.
有很多与您的心理和身体健康相关的事情只能通过血液检查来检测。
The problem is blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated.
问题是血液检测一直非常昂贵且复杂。
In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost.
相比之下，Function 的简单性和成本水平给我留下了深刻的印象。
It is very affordable.
这是非常实惠的。
As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.
因此，我决定加入他们的科学顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。
If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Function，可以访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。
Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman Podcast listeners.
Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等候名单，但他们正在为 Huberman 播客听众提供早期访问服务。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.
同样，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。
This idea that I've heard about before, I think it was a Freudian concept of a repetition compulsion.
我以前听说过这个想法，我认为这是弗洛伊德的强迫性重复概念。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes.
是的。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
My understanding of this concept of the repetition compulsion is that we all want to solve our traumas-
我对强迫性重复这个概念的理解是，我们都想解决我们的创伤——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes
是的
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
...
...
and it allows us to put ourselves into micro or, again, macro versions of that over and over again.
它使我们能够一次又一次地将自己置于微观或宏观版本中。
We get to run the experiment again and again-
我们要一次又一次地进行实验-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
...
...
in an attempt to solve it.
试图解决它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Why is it that somebody who is in an abusive relationship goes on to have a second and third or fourth-
为什么处于虐待关系中的人会继续经历第二次、第三次或第四次——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes
是的
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
...
...
verbally or physically abusive relationship?
言语或身体上的虐待关系？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We see that over and over.
我们一遍又一遍地看到这一点。
It's not necessarily in everyone, but boy, it is in a lot of people who have suffered trauma.
不一定每个人都有这种情况，但是很多遭受过创伤的人都会有这种情况。
On the surface of it, it makes no sense.
从表面上看，这没有任何意义。
But then if we think, well, how does our brains actually function, right?
但如果我们想一想，我们的大脑实际上是如何运作的，对吗？
We're sort of trained, at least in Western society, I think, to think of ourselves as logical creatures, right?
我认为，至少在西方社会，我们接受过训练，认为自己是有逻辑的生物，对吗？
That like, oh, we're logical, and ultimately everything in us can just boil down to logic, which is completely not true.
就像，哦，我们是有逻辑的，最终我们身上的一切都可以归结为逻辑，这是完全不正确的。
The limbic system, the emotion system, so to speak, inside of us always trumps logic, right?
可以说，我们内心的边缘系统、情感系统总是胜过逻辑，对吧？
If you think about, does it ever make sense to run into a burning building?
如果你想一想，冲进一座着火的大楼还有意义吗？
Logic says no, right?
逻辑说不，对吗？
But if someone you love is in the burning building, people run right in, right?
但如果你爱的人在着火的大楼里，人们就会跑进去，对吗？
Because the limbic system says yes.
因为边缘系统说是。
So when logic and emotion come head to head, emotion wins all the time.
因此，当逻辑和情感正面交锋时，情感总是获胜。
And the limbic system does not care about the clock or the calendar.
而且边缘系统并不关心时钟或日历。
So how I would relate that to the repetition compulsion is when people are repeating, what they're trying to do is to make things right.
所以我将其与重复强迫联系起来的是，当人们重复时，他们试图做的就是把事情做好。
With the idea that if we can repeat the situation and make it right, it will fix everything.
我们的想法是，如果我们能够重复这种情况并改正，一切都会解决。
Which makes perfect sense if we think, well, where is that concept coming from?
如果我们思考这个概念从何而来，那就完全有道理了？
It's coming from the emotional part of the brain that wants relief from suffering of the trauma and does not understand the clock or the calendar.
它来自大脑的情感部分，它想要摆脱创伤的痛苦，但不了解时钟或日历。
So if I can solve something now, I will also solve something in the past.
所以如果我现在能解决一些问题，我也会解决过去的一些问题。
Which is why I can't tell you how many times I've sat with someone, and say we're starting to do therapy, right?
这就是为什么我无法告诉你有多少次我和某人坐在一起，并说我们开始进行治疗，对吗？
And a person will say, "My last seven relationships have been abusive." And I'll say back something sometimes like, "Well, look, if you tell me that you've had seven relationships that have been abusive in different ways, I'll agree with you." I only say that because that's never what someone says.
有人会说：“我最近七段感情都是虐待行为。”有时我会这样回答：“好吧，听着，如果你告诉我你有过七段以不同方式虐待的关系，我会同意你的观点。”我这么说只是因为从来没有人这么说过。
But I think what you're going to tell me is you've kind of had the same relationship seven times.
但我想你要告诉我的是，你已经有过七次同样的关系了。
So for me, the light bulb that goes off, like I have not had seven different abusive relationships.
所以对我来说，灯泡熄灭了，就像我没有经历过七种不同的虐待关系一样。
I have had one that I have repeated seven times.
我已经重复了七次了。
And now we start getting to what's really going on and what needs to happen.
现在我们开始了解到底发生了什么以及需要发生什么。
That person needs to face what happened in that original abusive relationship, and it always comes down to the same sort of concepts of the person feeling terrified while the abuse was going on, feeling guilty, feeling ashamed, feeling like, oh, they brought it on themselves.
这个人需要面对在最初的虐待关系中发生的事情，而这总是归结为同样的概念，即当虐待发生时，这个人感到害怕，感到内疚，感到羞耻，感觉就像，哦，这是他们自己造成的。
They deserve it.
他们应得的。
They don't deserve anything better.
他们不值得更好的东西。
Because the brain is trying to make sense of it.
因为大脑正在试图理解它。
Or I thought I could make that okay, but I couldn't.
或者我以为我可以做到这一点，但我做不到。
And then there's more guilt and more shame, and if that's stuck inside of someone, like that's bundled up inside of someone, like a medical abscess inside a person, a walled-off infection inside the body, this is the same concept in the brain, then of course the limbic system is going to want to fix that, and it fixes it by trying to, let's recreate that situation and make it right this time.
然后会有更多的内疚和更多的羞耻感，如果它被困在某人的内心，就像被捆绑在某人的内心，就像一个人体内的医疗脓肿，体内的封闭感染，这在大脑中是相同的概念，那么边缘系统当然会想要修复它，它会通过尝试来修复它，让我们重现这种情况并这次纠正它。
I see that play out clinically over and over again.
我在临床上一次又一次地看到这种情况的发生。
And why do things get better?
为什么事情会变得更好？
Because we go to the trauma, and we unlock it.
因为我们触及创伤，并解锁它。
It's not hidden inside where it can control things.
它并不隐藏在它可以控制事物的地方。
We bring it to the surface, and then we can take away its power.
我们把它带到地面，然后我们就可以夺走它的力量。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
The thought about the thing, the event-
关于事物、事件的想法——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
...
...
or events, plural, evokes this arousal, this internal state, makes some people feel sleepy and exhausted, other people feel really anxious, other people feel angry.
或事件，复数，唤起这种唤醒，这种内部状态，使一些人感到困倦和疲惫，另一些人感到真正焦虑，另一些人感到愤怒。
I mean, that arousal has all these different dimensions-
我的意思是，这种唤醒有所有这些不同的维度——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes
是的
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
...
...
as you know.
如你所知。
It's clear we need to confront these things, and so how do we deal with arousal?
显然我们需要面对这些事情，那么我们如何应对觉醒呢？
How does one take what they feel inside about something shameful, what do you do with it in a moment?
人们如何看待他们内心对可耻的事情的感受？你立刻会如何处理它？
And does that have to be done in the presence of a skilled trained therapist?
这是否必须在训练有素的治疗师在场的情况下进行？
How do we deal with that internal arousal?
我们如何应对这种内在的唤醒？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We so often try and change the trauma of the past in order to control the future.
我们常常试图改变过去的创伤，以控制未来。
And what that really adds up to is the trauma of the past dominates our present.
真正加起来的是过去的创伤主宰着我们的现在。
And then we're not really living in the present, right?
那么我们并没有真正活在当下，对吧？
As we're trying to control the future.
当我们试图控制未来时。
We're not going to do a great job of controlling our future if we're not really living in the present.
如果我们没有真正活在当下，我们就无法很好地掌控自己的未来。
And so the way to come at that, again, in the moment, if we're saying, okay, in the moment, if I need to fall asleep, right?
所以，如果我们说，好吧，就在那一刻，如果我需要睡觉，对吧？
I might say, okay, let me try and put that out of my mind.
我可能会说，好吧，让我试着把它忘掉。
Let me try and thought redirect.
让我尝试一下思维重定向。
So, there's short-term strategies that can let us be functional in the context of these changes.
因此，短期策略可以让我们在这些变化的背景下发挥作用。
But the answer is to go look directly at that thing.
但答案是直接去看那个东西。
Look at that trauma, explore that trauma.
看看那个创伤，探索那个创伤。
And sure, that can be done with a professional, and sometimes that's what makes sense, but not always, right?
当然，这可以由专业人士来完成，有时这是有意义的，但并非总是如此，对吗？
Sometimes it can be done by talking to another person, right?
有时可以通过与另一个人交谈来完成，对吧？
Writing it down, right?
写下来吧？
Looking at what's going on inside of me that my mind is so stuck to this.
看看我内心发生的事情，我的思想是如此执着于此。
Let's explore that.
让我们来探讨一下。
We're so afraid so often of looking at the trauma that has changed us, that we'll look anywhere but at that.
我们如此频繁地害怕看到改变我们的创伤，以至于我们会看任何地方而不是那个。
What ends up happening is when the person puts words to it, right?
当这个人说出话来时，最终会发生什么，对吧？
It could be in writing, it could be talking to a trusted other or with a therapist, right?
可以是书面形式，也可以是与值得信赖的其他人或治疗师交谈，对吗？
Things start to change.
事情开始发生变化。
I mean, just the fact that you can talk about it, you can put words to it, and other people don't recoil.
我的意思是，事实上，你可以谈论它，你可以用言语表达它，而其他人不会退缩。
That example of the person who says, "Okay, I was abused by a coach when I was a child." And once they start talking about it, then they start talking about how they were just innocent kids, right?
那个人说：“好吧，我小时候被教练虐待过。”一旦他们开始谈论这件事，他们就会开始谈论他们只是无辜的孩子，对吗？
And they didn't know, and they really wanted to be on the team, where this coach was treating them as special and now they can look at themselves from the outside, right?
他们不知道，他们真的很想加入球队，教练对他们很特别，现在他们可以从外面审视自己，对吗？
They can look at themselves like they would look at someone else.
他们可以像看待别人一样看待自己。
Do you think it's so easy for us to see what's real and true if it's someone else, right?
你认为如果是别人的话，我们很容易就能看出什么是真实的，对吗？
If you ask someone, "What do you think of someone who's 10, 11 years old, who's abused and manipulated and abused by an adult?" They say, "Oh, my goodness, I feel compassion for that person," right?
如果你问某人：“你对一个 10 岁、11 岁的人被成年人虐待、操纵和虐待的人有何看法？”他们说，“哦，天哪，我对那个人感到同情，”对吗？
But if it's us, right?
但如果是我们，对吗？
Then, oh, no, it's guilt and shame, and we have to hide it away.
然后，哦，不，这是内疚和羞耻，我们必须把它藏起来。
And when the person starts looking at it, they can sort of see it from the outside, and it starts to take the energy out of it.
当人们开始观察它时，他们可以从外部看到它，并且它开始从其中吸收能量。
All the guilt and shame inside the person gets juxtaposed to like what really happened there?
人内心所有的内疚和羞耻感都与那里真正发生的事情并列在一起吗？
And then they say, "Right, I was a terrified child, right?
然后他们说：“对，我是一个害怕的孩子，对吗？
I didn't understand at all." And they can come to a place of compassion, and now we are working against the guilt and shame.
我根本不明白。”他们可以达到同情的地步，现在我们正在努力消除内疚和羞耻。
And if the person cries about it, then that's great, right?
如果这个人为此哭泣，那就太好了，对吧？
I mean, crying is one of the best coping mechanisms we have.
我的意思是，哭泣是我们最好的应对机制之一。
It doesn't hurt us, and it lets us grieve things.
它不会伤害我们，而且会让我们感到悲伤。
We can't grieve if there's guilt and shame inside of us.
如果我们内心有愧疚和羞耻，我们就不会悲伤。
It just blocks grief, right?
它只是阻止悲伤，对吗？
It has to be a clean slate, in a sense, in order to feel sadness.
从某种意义上说，它必须是一个干净的石板，才能感受到悲伤。
And then you see that it shifts from anxiety, anger, and frustration, usually directed towards the self, guilt and shame, towards being able to process it and being able to bring to bear some compassion and being able to direct the negative emotions, so to speak, where they're warranted.
然后你会发现，它从通常针对自我、内疚和羞耻的焦虑、愤怒和沮丧转变为能够处理它，能够承担一些同情心，并能够将负面情绪引导到需要的地方。
And my goodness, the changes.
我的天啊，变化。
It's remarkable how just getting it out there and having one hour of talking like that, like what we're talking about now, can leave a person feeling immensely better.
值得注意的是，只要把它说出来并进行一个小时的谈话，就像我们现在正在谈论的那样，就能让一个人感觉好多了。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
How do we do that in a way that isn't re-traumatizing ourself in a major way or in a minor way?
我们怎样才能做到这一点，而不会对自己造成重大或轻微的伤害呢？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It starts with real introspection.
它从真正的内省开始。
When things are bouncing around in our minds, often it's very non-productive, right?
当事情在我们的脑海中跳来跳去时，通常是非常没有生产力的，对吧？
It's the same thing over and over again, and that's not helpful for us, right?
一遍又一遍地做同样的事情，这对我们没有帮助，对吗？
So if we're just thinking about it and we're thinking in the same way we sort of, in a sense, always think about it, then all we're doing is reinforcing the trauma, right?
因此，如果我们只是思考它，并且我们以某种方式思考，从某种意义上说，我们总是思考它，那么我们所做的一切都是在加剧创伤，对吗？
But if we can distance enough, then we can think in ways that allow us to have new thoughts, right?
但如果我们能够保持足够的距离，那么我们就能以允许我们产生新想法的方式思考，对吧？
That we weren't having.
我们没有。
It's not just bouncing around in our minds.
它不只是在我们的脑海中跳来跳去。
And if we speak or write, there are even more mechanisms that come online in our brains, right?
如果我们说话或写字，我们的大脑中就会出现更多的机制，对吧？
That are then sort of monitoring mechanisms.
这就是某种监督机制。
We think in a different way if we're using words, right?
如果我们使用文字，我们的思考方式就会不同，对吗？
And we are better able, often, to bring in that observing ego of like, "What's going on inside of me?" So it can be very helpful to think, it can be helpful to talk to someone, to a trusted other, friend, family, clergy, to write.
通常，我们能够更好地引入观察性的自我，比如“我内心发生了什么？”因此，思考是非常有帮助的，与某人、与值得信赖的人、朋友、家人、神职人员交谈、写作也很有帮助。
I mean, these are things that can be done without expending any resources.
我的意思是，这些事情不需要花费任何资源就可以完成。
And sometimes if the symptoms are significant enough, we really do need to talk to somebody professional who can help us get to the root of the trauma.
有时，如果症状足够严重，我们确实需要与专业人士交谈，他们可以帮助我们找到创伤的根源。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, LMNT.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 LMNT。
LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.
LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。
That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium in the correct amounts, but no sugar.
这意味着电解质、钠、镁和钾的含量正确，但不含糖。
Proper hydration is critical for optimal brain and body function.
适当的水合作用对于大脑和身体的最佳功能至关重要。
Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish cognitive and physical performance.
即使是轻微程度的脱水也会降低认知和身体表现。
It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes.
获得充足的电解质也很重要。
The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are vital for functioning of all the cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells.
电解质（钠、镁和钾）对于体内所有细胞（尤其是神经元或神经细胞）的功能至关重要。
Drinking LMNT dissolved in water makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes.
饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT 可以很容易地确保您获得足够的水分和电解质。
To make sure that I'm getting proper amounts of hydration and electrolytes, I dissolve one packet of LMNT in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I first wake up in the morning, and I drink that basically first thing in the morning.
为了确保我获得适量的水合作用和电解质，当我早上第一次醒来时，我将一包 LMNT 溶解在大约 16 至 32 盎司的水中，并且我基本上早上第一件事就是喝它。
I'll also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes.
我还会在进行任何体育锻炼时饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT，尤其是在炎热的日子里，当我大量出汗并失去水和电解质时。
LMNT has a bunch of great-tasting flavors.
LMNT 有很多美味的口味。
I love the raspberry, I love the citrus flavor.
我喜欢覆盆子，我喜欢柑橘味。
Right now, LMNT has a limited edition lemonade flavor that is absolutely delicious.
现在LMNT推出了限量版柠檬水口味，绝对美味。
I hate to say that I love one more than all the others, but this lemonade flavor is right up there with my favorite other one, which is raspberry or watermelon.
我不想说我比其他所有口味都更喜欢其中一种，但这种柠檬水口味与我最喜欢的另一种口味（覆盆子或西瓜）不相上下。
Again, I can't pick just one flavor.
再说一次，我不能只选择一种口味。
I love them all.
我爱他们所有人。
If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman, spelled drink L-M-N-T .com/huberman, to claim a free LMNT sample pack with a purchase of any LMNT drink mix.
如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman（拼写为 Drink L-M-N-T .com/huberman），购买任意 LMNT 混合饮料即可领取免费 LMNT 样品包。
Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.
再次强调，请访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman 索取免费样品包。
But what are some of the characteristics that one should look for in looking for a therapist?
但是，在寻找治疗师时应该寻找哪些特征呢？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you look at what are the top 10 important factors to find in a therapist, just repeat rapport 10 times.
如果你看看治疗师最重要的 10 个因素是什么，只需重复 10 次“融洽关系”即可。
It's trust, it's a back and forth.
这是信任，这是一个来回。
It's like, yeah, even though I'm doing something difficult, I'm doing it with someone who's really helping me, someone who's in it with me, right?
就像，是的，即使我正在做一些困难的事情，但我是和一个真正帮助我的人一起做的，一个和我一起做的人，对吧？
Someone who's really paying attention, wants me to be better.
真正关注我的人希望我变得更好。
That's indispensable.
这是不可或缺的。
I think that good therapists are not pigeonholed by a certain modality.
我认为优秀的治疗师不会被某种模式所束缚。
They may come at the world largely through a psychodynamic or a CBT or a DBT lens.
他们可能主要通过心理动力学、CBT 或 DBT 视角来看待这个世界。
There's lots of different ways to do therapy.
有很多不同的治疗方法。
But when you really talk to those people, really good, experienced therapists, it's all coming through the vehicle of the rapport, but they're practically shifting to what the person needs.
但是，当你真正与那些真正优秀、经验丰富的治疗师交谈时，一切都是通过融洽的媒介来实现的，但他们实际上正在转向人们需要的东西。
If you have that, you've got a winning combination.
如果你具备了这一点，那么你就拥有了一个获胜的组合。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
So people should perhaps try a few therapists and maybe have a session or two or three to see if the rapport feels like it's taking root.
因此，人们也许应该尝试几位治疗师，也许进行一两次或三次治疗，看看这种融洽的关系是否正在扎根。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, and I think that's why word of mouth is important, right?
是的，我认为这就是为什么口碑很重要，对吧？
If someone you trust tells you, "Hey, this is a good person," that says a lot, right?
如果你信任的人告诉你，“嘿，这是一个好人”，这说明了很多，对吧？
It already makes the pretest probability quite high.
这已经使得预测概率相当高了。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
How does one gauge how much therapy they ought to be doing, and should it always be on the therapist to decide that?
一个人如何衡量他们应该进行多少治疗？是否应该始终由治疗师来决定？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes, I think a lot of times it would be the therapist to say, "More intensive work can make a difference." But I think the person also needs to take ownership of their own therapy and say, "If I don't feel helped enough, well, I have to think about that, right?
是的，我想很多时候治疗师会说，“更深入的工作可以带来改变。”但我认为这个人也需要对自己的治疗负责，并说：“如果我觉得没有得到足够的帮助，那么我必须考虑一下，对吗？
And talk to the therapist about that, because maybe that therapist isn't a match." People can get into a rhythm of therapy where it's really not helping them, right?
并与治疗师讨论此事，因为也许那位治疗师不适合。”人们可能会进入一种治疗节奏，但实际上这对他们没有帮助，对吧？
But they either feel sort of nihilistic about it, like, "Oh, I'm no better and I'm going to therapy." Do we really need to look at ourselves?
但他们要么对此感到有点虚无主义，比如，“哦，我也没有好转，我要去接受治疗。”我们真的需要审视自己吗？
And this is where the insurance systems often are very difficult, because it's hard sometimes for a person to say, "Well, I need more therapy," because that may not be possible.
这就是保险系统通常非常困难的地方，因为有时一个人很难说：“好吧，我需要更多治疗”，因为这可能是不可能的。
So there are sort of negative factors in the world around us.
所以我们周围的世界存在一些负面因素。
But ultimately, I think the answer to the question comes down to observing ourselves and taking ownership of what's going on in us and how we're feeling, and then feeling that commitment to self or to self-care to say, "I need to go change this."
但最终，我认为这个问题的答案归结为观察我们自己，掌控我们内心发生的事情和我们的感受，然后感受到对自我或自我照顾的承诺，说：“我需要改变这一点。”
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Now I'd like to talk a little bit about chemistry.
现在我想谈谈化学。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes.
是的。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Drugs.
毒品。
How do you think about prescription drugs in the context of treating trauma and other conditions?
您如何看待处方药在治疗创伤和其他疾病方面的作用？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
I think that we tend to over-utilize medicines in this country because we have a healthcare system that's so based on throughput that we want to polish the hood when there's a problem in the engine, right?
我认为我们在这个国家倾向于过度使用药物，因为我们的医疗保健系统非常基于吞吐量，因此当发动机出现问题时我们希望擦亮引擎盖，对吧？
So we over-utilize medicines often as an endpoint, right?
所以我们经常过度使用药物作为终点，对吗？
Oh, we're going to make that person's depression better with an antidepressant.
哦，我们要用抗抑郁药来改善那个人的抑郁症。
Most of the time, for the person's depression to really get better and stay better, they need to unravel what's driving the depression.
大多数时候，为了使患者的抑郁症真正好转并保持好转，他们需要弄清楚导致抑郁症的原因。
So the first kind of branch point can be, what is the diagnosis?
那么第一种分支点可以是，诊断是什么？
What is the level of severity, right?
严重程度是多少，对吗？
And I think that's very, very important.
我认为这非常非常重要。
In the vast majority of people who are helped by antidepressants, they don't have clinically severe depression, right?
绝大多数接受抗抑郁药帮助的人，他们并没有临床上严重的抑郁症，对吗？
Those medicines create more distress tolerance in us.
这些药物可以增强我们对痛苦的耐受力。
If you can improve someone's distress tolerance, and you can use medicines that take away what clinically is rumination, right?
如果你可以提高某人的痛苦耐受力，并且你可以使用药物来消除临床上的沉思，对吗？
Not the standard meaning of that word, but the clinical meaning of it, where there are distress centers in our brain that are overactive, and then we get stuck in these maladaptive negative pathways where we think about something over and over and over again with no real chance of solving it, because that's not what's going on inside of us.
不是这个词的标准含义，而是它的临床含义，我们大脑中的痛苦中心过度活跃，然后我们陷入这些适应不良的消极路径中，我们一遍又一遍地思考某件事，却没有真正的机会解决它，因为这不是我们内心正在发生的事情。
So medicines can help that, but we have to have some flexibility around their conception and the modern medical system of 15-minute visits to a psychiatrist that are weeks apart.
因此，药物可以对此有所帮助，但我们必须对其概念和现代医疗系统有一定的灵活性，即每隔几周就去看一次精神科医生，每次 15 分钟。
I don't understand how that goes well.
我不明白这怎么进展顺利。
We use, I think, approximately five times as much medicine, I think, across the board as, say, the Dutch population.
我认为，我们使用的药物大约是荷兰人口的五倍。
They have a healthcare system and a cultural system that, to the best of my understanding, is more rooted in taking responsibility for oneself.
据我所知，他们拥有医疗保健系统和文化系统，这些系统和文化系统更加植根于对自己负责。
So if a person comes in and cholesterol is high, right, the first order of business is, hey, you could take better care of yourself, right?
因此，如果一个人进来时胆固醇很高，对吧，首要任务是，嘿，你可以更好地照顾自己，对吗？
This person really needs to lose some weight, exercise more.
这个人确实需要减肥，多运动。
They're not just jumping to, like, "Let me give you a medicine, and shift you through the healthcare system and out the other side of the door." So I think medicines get overused in large part for systemic reasons, and also for some of these categorization reasons.
他们不仅仅是跳到“让我给你开药，然后让你通过医疗保健系统，然后走出门的另一边”。因此，我认为药物被过度使用很大程度上是由于系统原因，以及其中一些分类原因。
Oh, that person meets some technical criteria for depression.
哦，那个人符合抑郁症的一些技术标准。
We got to give them this medicine.
我们必须给他们这种药。
Instead of really thinking, wait, what's going on in this person?
与其真正思考，等等，这个人到底怎么了？
And I see this over and over again.
我一遍又一遍地看到这一点。
I see someone who's on seven medicines, and they're on seven medicines to treat seven different symptoms.
我看到有人服用七种药物，他们服用七种药物来治疗七种不同的症状。
And now they have side effects from all those seven medicines.
现在这七种药物都有副作用。
Maybe two of them are to treat the side effects from the other five, right?
也许其中两个是为了治疗其他五个的副作用吧？
And that's bad.
这很糟糕。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
I'd love to talk about psychedelics with the preface that-
我很想谈谈迷幻药，序言是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes
是的
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
...
...
we're talking about this in a legal, clinical setting.
我们是在法律、临床环境中谈论这个问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes.
是的。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
What are your thoughts on these drugs for therapeutic potential, also potential hazards, et cetera?
您对这些药物的治疗潜力、潜在危险等有何看法？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The data coming from the labs and the academic centers is so powerfully positive.
来自实验室和学术中心的数据非常积极。
These are used in professional hands and with the right kind of guidance, are extremely powerful tools, but used in the right way.
这些由专业人士使用并在正确的指导下使用，是非常强大的工具，但要以正确的方式使用。
What happens is we see less communication or less chatter in the outer parts of the brain, right?
发生的情况是我们看到大脑外部的交流或闲聊减少了，对吗？
In the outer parts of the cortex.
在皮质的外部。
That's where language is, that's where vision is, that's where executive function is.
这就是语言所在，这就是愿景所在，这就是执行功能所在。
So planning and task execution.
所以计划和任务执行。
So, so much of that is about making our way in the world around us, and I think when we take the neurotransmission out of those places, right, and we set it in a part of the brain, in say, the insular cortex, right?
所以，这很大程度上是为了在我们周围的世界中找到出路，我想当我们把神经传递从这些地方取出来时，对吧，我们把它放在大脑的一部分，比如岛状皮层，对吗？
The parts of the brain that are sort of in the middle, right?
大脑的部分位于中间，对吧？
Which I think, I believe, is where our humanness really is.
我认为，我相信，这才是我们人性的真正所在。
So the psychedelics make there be less chatter, communication in these other parts of the brain, and then we become seated in the part of the brain that I believe is most about our experience of true humanness.
因此，迷幻药可以减少大脑其他部分的喋喋不休和交流，然后我们就坐在大脑中我认为最能体验真正人性的部分。
It's why people can sort of see with clarity that, oh, that trauma That thing is not my fault.
这就是为什么人们可以清楚地看到，哦，那个创伤那件事不是我的错。
We feel a sense of compassion for ourselves.
我们对自己有一种同情心。
We relieve ourselves, release ourselves from guilt.
我们释放自己，从罪恶感中解脱出来。
And you say, "Why is this so helpful to people?" And I think it's because it can do what we are trying to get at in good therapy, but it can really catalyze that by just putting a person in that part of the brain that can see it for what it is without all that chatter in the cortex about, "You've got to think it's your fault or you won't avoid it again." And that makes the repetition compulsion.
你会说：“为什么这对人们如此有帮助？”我认为这是因为它可以做到我们在良好的治疗中试图达到的目标，但它确实可以催化这一点，只需将一个人放在大脑的那个部分，可以看到它的本来面目，而无需皮层中的所有喋喋不休，“你必须认为这是你的错，否则你将不会再避免它。”这使得重复成为一种强迫。
How do I think ahead to the next thing that might happen and what else bad might happen?
我如何提前考虑下一件可能发生的事情以及可能发生的其他坏事？
We don't get anywhere doing that.
我们没有任何进展。
These psychedelics, the medicinal value, I believe, is putting us in that part of the brain where a person can really find truth.
我相信，这些致幻剂和药用价值使我们进入了大脑中能够真正找到真理的部分。
And that's why I think that it's come so far in these few years, because I think that is very clinically evident, and I think we're going to see more and more of the value of that and how what the psychedelics do can become, I believe, a heuristic for understanding, like wait, how are our brains really functioning and what are the parts that really matter to our experience of being human?
这就是为什么我认为它在这几年里取得了如此大的进步，因为我认为这在临床上是非常明显的，我认为我们将看到越来越多的价值，以及我相信迷幻药的作用如何成为理解的启发式方法，比如等等，我们的大脑到底是如何运作的，以及哪些部分对我们作为人类的经历真正重要？
It's those parts of the brain, the deep parts of the brain, the insular cortex, and the areas around it that say, light up when a person has an experience of spiritual ecstasy or an experience of connection with another person.
当一个人体验到精神上的狂喜或体验到与另一个人的联系时，大脑的这些部分、大脑的深层、岛叶皮质及其周围的区域就会被点亮。
So we kind of have these telltale markers that something is going on there that's very important and very special.
所以我们有一些明显的标记，表明那里正在发生一些非常重要和非常特别的事情。
And then when they come, in a sense, back online in a normal cognitive way, they realize like, "Wow, now I'm applying all those mechanisms of trying to understand truth and to that, and what I see is that it's true," and "Wow, it's true." I mean, we hear that all the time, which tells me, hey, something different is going on there.
然后，当他们在某种意义上以正常的认知方式回到网上时，他们意识到，“哇，现在我正在应用所有这些机制来尝试理解真相，并且我看到的是这是真的，”和“哇，这是真的。”我的意思是，我们一直听到这样的说法，这告诉我，嘿，那里正在发生一些不同的事情。
And of course, these are powerful tools, so misused, very bad things can happen.
当然，这些都是强大的工具，因此误用可能会发生非常糟糕的事情。
But you think about the clinical utility and what does it mean that so many people change for the healthier or even change their lives?
但你想想临床效用，这么多人变得更健康，甚至改变他们的生活，这意味着什么？
I think we're likely to see that they are powerful anti-trauma mechanisms, again, used clinically in the right hands.
我认为我们很可能会看到它们是强大的抗创伤机制，再次在临床上被正确使用。
And I think that we're also going to see that they're a heuristic for understanding our brain that goes against what I see as some of the reflexive hubris of, well, the outer parts must be the best because that's what makes us human, and other animals don't have it, and we're better because we're human.
我认为我们也会看到它们是理解我们大脑的启发式方法，它与我所认为的一些本能的傲慢背道而驰，即外部部分必须是最好的，因为这就是我们成为人类的原因，而其他动物没有它，而我们更好，因为我们是人类。
I mean, it makes no sense.
我的意思是，这没有意义。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
We've known for a long time that there are things that we can do to improve our sleep, and that includes things that we can take, things like magnesium threonate, theanine, chamomile extract, and glycine, along with lesser-known things like saffron and valerian root.
我们很早就知道，我们可以采取一些措施来改善睡眠，其中包括我们可以服用的东西，例如苏糖酸镁、茶氨酸、洋甘菊提取物和甘氨酸，以及一些不太为人所知的物质，例如藏红花和缬草根。
These are all clinically supported ingredients that can help you fall asleep, stay asleep, and wake up feeling more refreshed.
这些都是经过临床支持的成分，可以帮助您入睡、保持睡眠状态，并且醒来时感觉更加神清气爽。
I'm excited to share that our longtime sponsor, AG1, just created a new product called AGZ, a nightly drink designed to help you get better sleep and have you wake up feeling super refreshed.
我很高兴与大家分享，我们的长期赞助商 AG1 刚刚创造了一款名为 AGZ 的新产品，这是一种夜间饮料，旨在帮助您获得更好的睡眠，让您醒来时感觉神清气爽。
Over the past few years, I've worked with the team at AG1 to help create this new AGZ formula.
在过去的几年里，我与 AG1 的团队合作，帮助创建了这个新的 AGZ 公式。
It has the best sleep-supporting compounds in exactly the right ratios in one easy-to-drink mix.
它在一种易于饮用的混合物中以完全正确的比例含有最好的睡眠支持化合物。
This removes all the complexity of trying to forage the vast landscape of supplements focused on sleep and figuring out the right dosages and which ones to take for you.
这消除了尝试寻找大量针对睡眠的补充剂以及确定正确剂量和适合您服用的补充剂的所有复杂性。
AGZ is, to my knowledge, the most comprehensive sleep supplement on the market.
据我所知，AGZ 是市场上最全面的睡眠补充剂。
I take it 30 to 60 minutes before sleep.
我在睡前 30 到 60 分钟服用。
It's delicious, by the way, and it dramatically increases both the quality and the depth of my sleep.
顺便说一句，它很美味，而且它极大地提高了我的睡眠质量和深度。
I know that both from my subjective experience of my sleep and because I track my sleep.
我知道这一点，既来自我对睡眠的主观体验，也因为我跟踪了我的睡眠。
I'm excited for everyone to try this new AGZ formulation and to enjoy the benefits of better sleep.
我很高兴每个人都能尝试这种新的 AGZ 配方并享受更好睡眠的好处。
AGZ is available in chocolate, chocolate mint, and mixed berry flavors.
AGZ 有巧克力、巧克力薄荷和混合浆果口味。
And as I mentioned before, they're all extremely delicious.
正如我之前提到的，它们都非常美味。
My favorite of the three has to be, I think, chocolate mint, but I really like them all.
我认为这三者中我最喜欢的是巧克力薄荷，但我真的很喜欢它们。
If you'd like to try AGZ, go to drinkagz.com/huberman to get a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AGZ，请访问 Drinkagz.com/huberman 以获得特别优惠。
Again, that's drinkagz.com/huberman.
再说一遍，这是 Drinkagz.com/huberman。
I'd like to talk about MDMA.
我想谈谈摇头丸。
What sorts of states do you think MDMA is creating-
您认为摇头丸正在创造什么样的状态-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
...
...
that can explain why it's a useful therapeutic tool in some cases, and what sorts of cases those might be?
这可以解释为什么它在某些情况下是一种有用的治疗工具，以及这些情况可能是什么类型？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is very different than the psychedelics, which are seeding our consciousness in these deep centers of the brain.
这与迷幻药有很大不同，迷幻药将我们的意识播种到大脑的这些深处中心。
Whereas what MDMA is doing is sort of flooding with positive neurotransmitters in certain parts of the brain.
而 MDMA 的作用是在大脑的某些部位充满积极的神经递质。
And I think what that creates is a greater permissiveness inside to entertain or approach different things.
我认为这会创造出一种更大的包容性来娱乐或处理不同的事情。
And when these systems are flooded with these neurotransmitters, it's more permissive to sort of think about that, and to think about that without, again, all the chatter of, "That's your fault" or "You're never going to get anywhere because of that," or "You know what that means." They can kind of go away, and then we can think about it in a way that isn't through the lens of fear.
当这些系统充满了这些神经递质时，人们会更容易思考这一点，并且不会再有“那是你的错”或“因此你永远不会有任何进展”或“你知道这意味着什么”的喋喋不休。它们可能会消失，然后我们就可以不通过恐惧的角度来思考它。
And I think that's the power there is that it's permissive of approaching something, contemplating something, a novelty, as we talk about a de novo approach.
我认为这就是力量，当我们谈论从头开始的方法时，它允许接近某事、思考某事、新奇事物。
And I think that's also why the experience can vary, because you could also see how if you're not thinking about something, so there's not a clinical guidance to it, you could be in a state where like, I just feel good.
我认为这也是为什么体验会有所不同，因为你也可以看到，如果你没有考虑某件事，所以没有临床指导，你可能会处于一种状态，就像，我只是感觉良好。
But that's not necessarily problem-solving.
但这并不一定能解决问题。
So the clinical guidance says, hey, let's take that state and do something with it.
所以临床指导说，嘿，让我们采取这种状态并用它做点什么。
Now that you're in this state, let's make hay while the sun is shining.
既然你已经处于这种状态，那就趁着太阳晒干草吧。
You're in a state where we can look at things that are traumatic.
你处于一种我们可以看到创伤性事物的状态。
We can approach them from a de novo perspective, and we're coming to understand that they have immense potential to be helpful to us.
我们可以从头开始接触它们，并且我们逐渐认识到它们具有为我们提供帮助的巨大潜力。
But I think and hope that that only also increases our respect for those modalities and what negative can happen if we're not respectful.
但我认为并希望这只会增加我们对这些模式的尊重，以及如果我们不尊重就会产生负面影响。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
I have a question about language.
我有一个关于语言的问题。
In your book, you talk about how we need to be careful about the use of language around trauma.
在您的书中，您谈到了我们需要如何谨慎使用有关创伤的语言。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes.
是的。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
And maybe problem-solving and problem describing in general.
也许还有一般性的问题解决和问题描述。
How should we think about language in parsing trauma?
在解析创伤时我们应该如何思考语言？
And in your book, you give some cautionary notes about talking about depression, trauma, and PTSD in terms that might diminish their real severity in some cases.
在你的书中，你对谈论抑郁、创伤和创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）给出了一些警告，在某些情况下，这些术语可能会削弱它们的真正严重性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
And I was really struck by that.
我对此感到非常震惊。
So maybe just touch on how should we talk about these things in a way that doesn't diminish them for ourselves or for other people?
那么，也许我们应该如何以一种不影响我们自己或他人的方式来谈论这些事情？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
And at the same time, honors the fact that there's a lot of trauma out there.
与此同时，我们也承认存在很多创伤的事实。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
And there's a lot of depression out there, and we need to talk about it.
那里有很多抑郁症，我们需要谈论它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We just have to be very careful what we're saying and what we're communicating.
我们只需要非常小心我们所说的话和我们所交流的内容。
And I think this doesn't mean, because there's a sort of phenomenon now where people are trying to control language, I think, too much.
我认为这并不意味着，因为现在有一种现象，人们试图过度控制语言。
You can't say anything that someone else might find hurtful.
你不能说任何可能会伤害别人的话。
You have to refer to people in ways they choose to be referred to, even if those are ways that others don't understand, or ways they themselves have decided, or ways that might be psychologically or clinically unhelpful.
你必须以人们选择的方式来提及他们，即使这些方式是其他人不理解的方式，或者是他们自己决定的方式，或者可能在心理或临床上无益的方式。
So I think the overcontrol of language is not good.
所以我认为过度控制语言是不好的。
But I think the specificity of language, of what are we trying to say, how are we defining it, or even the word trauma, right?
但我认为语言的特殊性，我们想说的是什么，我们如何定义它，甚至创伤这个词，对吧？
We're talking about trauma, so we want to define what that means, right?
我们正在谈论创伤，所以我们想定义这意味着什么，对吧？
It doesn't just mean anything kind of negative, right?
它不仅仅意味着任何负面的东西，对吧？
Because then that dilutes it down to meaning nothing, right?
因为那样的话它就变得毫无意义了，对吧？
It also doesn't just mean injury in combat, right?
这也不仅仅意味着战斗中受伤，对吧？
We have to talk about what that is.
我们必须谈谈那是什么。
So I think anchoring it to something that rises to the magnitude of overwhelming our coping skills and changing us, then at least I define it that way, and I can communicate that to you, and we can understand what we're talking about.
因此，我认为将其锚定在一些能够压倒我们的应对技巧并改变我们的事物上，那么至少我是这样定义它的，我可以将其传达给你，我们可以理解我们在谈论什么。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
I'd like to talk about a concept of taking care of oneself.
我想谈谈一个照顾自己的概念。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
We hear about this concept of taking care of oneself, and I think at a surface level, it can sound a little bit light.
我们听说过照顾自己的概念，我认为从表面上看，它听起来有点轻松。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
"Oh, take care.
“哦，保重。
Take good care."
好好照顾。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
But to me, it's a deep and powerful concept.
但对我来说，这是一个深刻而有力的概念。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes.
是的。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
And I was very happy to see it in your book and also to learn a lot of-
我很高兴在你的书中看到它，也学到了很多东西——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you
谢谢你
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
...
...
of ideas about what that really looks like.
关于它到底是什么样子的想法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
How should we think about taking care of oneself?
我们应该如何考虑照顾自己？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see here what I think is a very fascinating dichotomy, right?
我在这里看到了我认为非常有趣的二分法，对吗？
That in some ways, think about how complex our brains are, right?
从某些方面来说，想想我们的大脑有多复杂，对吧？
How complex our psyches, our unconscious minds are.
我们的心理、我们的潜意识是多么复杂。
There's so much complexity there.
那里有太多的复杂性。
But, on the other hand, psychological concepts that are consistent with health are often very simple, right?
但是，另一方面，与健康相符的心理学概念往往很简单，对吗？
By which I don't mean light, right?
我指的不是光，对吧？
But simple, straightforward, right?
但简单、直接，对吗？
And I think self-care is absolutely one of them.
我认为自我保健绝对是其中之一。
How much is talked about how to take care of oneself that just skips over the basics that are necessary as a building block for all else.
人们谈论了多少如何照顾自己，却忽略了作为其他一切构建模块所必需的基础知识。
So it doesn't matter how many chefs or vacations or whatever a person has, if the basics of self-care aren't squared away.
因此，如果一个人的基本自我保健能力没有得到满足，那么一个人有多少厨师、有多少假期或拥有什么都没有关系。
And it's not a light concept to say, "Look, are you sleeping enough?" Right?
说“看，你睡够了吗？”这并不是一个简单的概念。正确的？
"Are you eating well?
“你吃得好吗？
Are you getting natural light?
你有自然光吗？
Are you interacting with people who are good to interact with?" Right?
你正在和那些善于交往的人交往吗？”正确的？
"Are you accepting negative interactions in your life?
“你接受生活中的负面互动吗？
Are you living in circumstances that make you feel okay or not?" They're very, very basic premises, but so often we're not looking at them at all.
你生活的环境让你感觉还好还是不舒服？”它们是非常非常基本的前提，但我们常常根本不关注它们。
Right?
正确的？
We're not looking at them at all because we tend to skip over them, and we tend to skip over them either because, again, in some automatic way that sometimes is trauma driven, and we're not going to look at that, right?
我们根本不看它们，因为我们倾向于跳过它们，我们倾向于跳过它们，或者是因为，有时是由创伤驱动的某种自动方式，我们不会看它们，对吗？
And often not taking care of ourselves can have the punishment, distraction, right?
不照顾自己常常会受到惩罚、分心，对吗？
There's so much that can come into that.
其中有很多内容。
Or our sense of power is tied to not taking care of ourselves.
或者我们的权力感与不照顾自己有关。
I'll give you an example is I tend to, for whatever reason, do reasonably well with very poor self-care, right?
我给你举个例子，无论出于什么原因，我倾向于在自我保健很差的情况下做得相当好，对吗？
And that was very adaptive when I was in medical training, right?
当我接受医学培训时，这非常具有适应性，对吧？
And I'm like, "Okay, I can eat a lot today.
我说：“好吧，我今天可以吃很多东西。
I can not eat." Right?
我不能吃东西。”正确的？
"I can sleep two hours.
“我可以睡两个小时。
I can sleep eight." Right?
我可以睡八点。”正确的？
Overall, that's not good, and it hasn't been good for me as I've aged.
总的来说，这并不好，而且随着我年龄的增长，这对我来说也不是好事。
But then I realized at some point, look, I'm doing all these things to make myself healthier, but what?
但后来我在某个时刻意识到，看，我做所有这些事情都是为了让自己更健康，但是什么呢？
I ignore that?
我忽略这个？
Right?
正确的？
And why am I ignoring it?
为什么我忽略它？
That was a key question.
这是一个关键问题。
Why am I ignoring it?
为什么我忽略它？
Because somewhere inside of me is, it was, and still to some extent is, this idea that my ability to be really functional, right, to generate success in the world around me is tied to my ability to do that.
因为我内心的某个地方过去、现在、在某种程度上仍然存在这样的想法：我真正发挥作用、在周围的世界中取得成功的能力与我做到这一点的能力息息相关。
Right?
正确的？
That, oh, but if I stop doing that and now I'm eating and sleeping regularly, then I'm going to lose some edge.
那，哦，但是如果我停止这样做并且现在我有规律地吃饭和睡觉，那么我就会失去一些优势。
And so even I think about this all the time, but I may realize, hey, I'm not doing it inside.
所以即使我一直在想这个，但我可能会意识到，嘿，我不是在里面做的。
And I think it's really grounding to the basics that really help us of what are the basics of what I'm doing and not doing in my life, diet, exercise, sleep, people, circumstances, leisure activities, sunlight.
我认为它确实扎根于基础知识，真正帮助我们了解我在生活中正在做什么和不做什么的基础知识，饮食，锻炼，睡眠，人，环境，休闲活动，阳光。
I think immensely important and dramatically undervalued.
我认为非常重要但被严重低估。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
I want to thank you for today's discussion.
我要感谢大家今天的讨论。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
I found it to be incredibly informative, and I know our-
我发现它的信息量非常大，而且我知道我们的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you
谢谢你
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
...
...
listeners will also.
听众也会。
I also want to thank you for the work you do.
我还要感谢你所做的工作。
I've done a wide and deep search for people in these areas, and there are so few who have the background in medical training and physiology in the psychoanalytic and psychiatric realm and also have a grounding toward the future, of what's coming.
我对这些领域的人进行了广泛而深入的搜索，很少有人拥有精神分析和精神病学领域的医学培训和生理学背景，并且对未来和即将发生的事情有基础。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
And who can encapsulate so many different orientations and bring them together into a coherent piece.
谁能概括这么多不同的方向并将它们组合成一个连贯的部分。
And for your book, which is incredible, I will go on record saying I think this is the definitive book on trauma.
对于你的书，这是令人难以置信的，我将公开表示，我认为这是一本关于创伤的权威书。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
And I really encourage people to read it and will continue to encourage people to read it.
我真的鼓励人们阅读它，并将继续鼓励人们阅读它。
It's so many valuable takeaways and insights and tools there.
其中有很多有价值的收获、见解和工具。
So, on behalf of the listeners and myself, thank you so much for joining us today.
因此，我谨代表听众和我本人，非常感谢您今天加入我们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're very welcome, and I take that to heart and I'm very appreciative of being here.
非常欢迎您，我将这一点牢记在心，并且非常感激来到这里。
So you're very welcome, and thank you as well.
所以非常欢迎你，也谢谢你。
Dr. Paul Conti:
保罗·康蒂博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
"I didn't like what you said," Odin pauses, "about the future." This is the love story of real Hinge couple Odin and Edward, written and read by me, Curtis Garner.
“我不喜欢你所说的，”奥丁停顿了一下，“关于未来。”这是真实的铰链夫妇奥丁和爱德华的爱情故事，由我柯蒂斯·加纳撰写和阅读。
Listen to the free audiobook now.
立即收听免费有声读物。