Essentials: The Science & Practice of Perfecting Your Sleep
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials, where we revisit past episodes for the most potent and actionable science-based tools for mental health, physical health, and performance.
欢迎来到 Huberman Lab Essentials，在这里我们回顾过去的剧集，寻找针对心理健康、身体健康和表现的最有效、最可操作的基于科学的工具。
And now, my discussion with Dr. Matt Walker.
现在，我与马特·沃克博士进行了讨论。
Let's start off very basic.
让我们从非常基础的开始。
What is sleep?
什么是睡眠？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sleep is probably the single most effective thing you can do to reset your brain and body health.
睡眠可能是重置大脑和身体健康最有效的方法。
Sleep as a process, though, is an incredibly complex physiological ballet.
然而，睡眠作为一个过程，是一场极其复杂的生理芭蕾。
Sleep is broadly separated into these two main types, and we've got non-rapid eye movement sleep on the one hand, and then we've got rapid eye movement sleep on the other.
睡眠大致分为这两种主要类型，一方面是非快速眼动睡眠，另一方面是快速眼动睡眠。
When you go into REM sleep, you are completely paralyzed.
当您进入快速眼动睡眠时，您会完全瘫痪。
You are locked into a physical incarceration of your own body.
你被锁在自己身体的物理监禁中。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Amazing.
太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The brain paralyzes the body so that the mind can dream safely.
大脑使身体瘫痪，以便心灵可以安全地做梦。
Because think about how quickly we would've all been popped out of the gene pool.
因为想想我们多久就会从基因库中消失。
If I think I'm one of the best skydivers who can just simply fly, and I get up on my apartment window, and I leap out-
如果我认为我是最好的跳伞运动员之一，我可以简单地飞翔，然后我站在我公寓的窗户上，然后我跳了出去-
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
You're done
你完成了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you're done.
你完成了。
Now, of course, the involuntary muscles, thankfully, aren't paralyzed, so you keep breathing, your heart keeps beating.
当然，现在，谢天谢地，不随意肌没有瘫痪，所以你继续呼吸，你的心脏继续跳动。
You go through these bizarre, what we call autonomic storms.
你会经历这些奇怪的事情，我们称之为自主风暴。
There are only two voluntary muscle groups that are spared from the paralysis.
只有两个随意肌群不会瘫痪。
Bizarre.
奇怪的。
One, your extraocular muscles-
一，你的眼外肌——
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because if they were paralyzed, you wouldn't be able to have rapid eye movements.
因为如果它们瘫痪了，你就无法进行快速的眼球运动。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the other that we later discovered was the inner ear muscle.
我们后来发现的另一个是内耳肌肉。
Some people have argued that the reason the eyeballs are spared from the paralysis is because if your eyeballs are left for long periods of time inactive, you may get things such as oxygen sort of issues in the aqueous or vitreous humor, and so the eyeballs have to keep moving in some way.
有些人认为，眼球之所以不会瘫痪，是因为如果眼球长时间不活动，房水或玻璃体中可能会出现氧气等问题，因此眼球必须以某种方式保持运动。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah, the drainage systems of the anterior eye require movement.
是的，前眼的排水系统需要运动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Exactly, yeah.
没错，是的。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
People with glaucoma have deficits in drainage through the anterior chamber.
青光眼患者的前房引流功能存在缺陷。
So maybe take me through the arc of a night.
所以也许可以带我度过一个夜晚。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When I first fall asleep, I'll go into the light stages of non-REM sleep, stages one and two of non-REM, and then I'll start to descend down into the deeper stages of non-REM sleep.
当我第一次入睡时，我将进入非快速眼动睡眠的浅阶段、非快速眼动睡眠的第一阶段和第二阶段，然后我将开始下降到非快速眼动睡眠的更深阶段。
So after about maybe 20 minutes, I'm starting to head down into stage three non-REM, and then into stage four non-REM sleep.
因此，大约 20 分钟后，我开始进入第三阶段非快速眼动睡眠，然后进入第四阶段非快速眼动睡眠。
And as I'm starting to fall asleep, as I've cast off from the, usually with me, murky waters of wakefulness, and I'm in the shallows of sleep, stages one and two, my heart rate starts to drop a little bit, and then my brainwave pattern activity starts to slow down.
当我开始入睡时，当我摆脱通常伴随着我的清醒的浑水时，我处于睡眠的浅水阶段，第一阶段和第二阶段，我的心率开始稍微下降，然后我的脑电波模式活动开始减慢。
Normally, when I'm awake, it's going up and down maybe 20, 30, 40, 50 times a second.
通常，当我醒着的时候，它每秒可能会上下 20、30、40、50 次。
As I'm going into light non-REM sleep, it will slow down to maybe 15, 20, and then really starts to slow down, down to about 10 or eight cycles per second.
当我进入轻度非快速眼动睡眠时，它会减慢到大约 15、20 个周期，然后真正开始减慢，降低到每秒大约 10 或 8 个周期。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Eight waves per second.
每秒八波。
Then, as I'm starting to move into stages three and four non-REM sleep, several remarkable things happen.
然后，当我开始进入第三和第四阶段非快速眼动睡眠时，发生了几件值得注意的事情。
All of a sudden, my heart rate really does start to drop.
突然之间，我的心率确实开始下降。
Hundreds of thousands of cells in my cortex all decide to fire together, and then they all go silent together.
我的皮质中数十万个细胞决定一起放电，然后又一起沉默。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's this remarkable physiological coordination of the likes that we just don't see during any other brain state.
这种非凡的生理协调是我们在任何其他大脑状态下都看不到的。
I will then stay there for about another 20 or 30 minutes, so now I'm maybe 60 or 70 minutes into my first sleep cycle, and then I'll start to rise back up into stage two non-REM sleep.
然后我会再呆在那里大约 20 或 30 分钟，所以现在我可能已经进入第一个睡眠周期 60 或 70 分钟，然后我将开始重新进入第二阶段非快速眼动睡眠。
And then after about 80 or so minutes, I'll pop up and I'll have a short REM sleep period.
然后大约 80 分钟后，我会突然醒来，进入短暂的快速眼动睡眠期。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then back down I go again, down into non-REM, up into REM.
然后再往下走，向下进入非快速眼动睡眠，向上进入快速眼动睡眠。
And you do that reliably, repeatedly, and I will be doing that every 90 minutes.
你要可靠地、反复地这样做，而我将每 90 分钟这样做一次。
At least that's the average for most adults.
至少这是大多数成年人的平均水平。
In the first half of the night, the majority of those 90-minute cycles are comprised of lots of deep non-REM sleep.
在前半夜，90 分钟的周期中的大部分都是由大量的深度非快速眼动睡眠组成。
That's when I get my stage three and four of deep non-REM sleep.
那时我就进入了深度非快速眼动睡眠的第三阶段和第四阶段。
Once I push through to the second half of the night, now that seesaw balance changes, and instead, the majority of those 90-minute cycles are comprised either of this lighter form of non-REM sleep, stage two non-REM sleep, and much more, and increasingly more rapid eye movement sleep.
一旦我熬到了后半夜，跷跷板平衡就会发生变化，相反，90 分钟的周期中的大部分都是由这种较轻的非快速眼动睡眠、第二阶段非快速眼动睡眠等等组成，并且越来越快的眼动睡眠。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
And who suffers more?
而谁受的苦更多呢？
Those that lack the early phase, or those that lack the later phase of the night?
那些缺乏前期的，还是那些缺乏夜间后期的？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Depends on what the outcome measure is.
取决于结果衡量标准是什么。
For example, during deep non-REM sleep, that's where we get this, it's almost a form of natural blood pressure medication.
例如，在深度非快速眼动睡眠期间，这就是我们得到的，它几乎是一种天然的血压药物。
And so when I take that away from you, the next day, we're usually going to see autonomic dysfunction, we're usually going to see abnormalities in heart rate, blood pressure.
因此，当我把它从你身边拿走时，第二天，我们通常会看到自主神经功能障碍，我们通常会看到心率、血压异常。
We also know that it's during deep non-REM sleep that there is a certain control of specific hormones.
我们还知道，在深度非快速眼动睡眠期间，特定激素受到一定的控制。
For example, we know that the insulin regulation of metabolism, meaning how will you look from a regulated blood sugar perspective versus dysregulated pre-diabetic look of profile, that's where deep sleep seems to matter.
例如，我们知道胰岛素对新陈代谢的调节，即从血糖调节的角度与糖尿病前期失调的外观来看，您的外观如何，这就是深度睡眠似乎很重要的地方。
If we selectively deprive you of that, we can see-
如果我们有选择地剥夺你的权利，我们可以看到——
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Growth hormone?
生长激素？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Growth hormone is different, actually.
事实上，生长激素是不同的。
So that's a beautiful demonstration where growth hormone seems to be more REM sleep dependent, and that's why we can come onto the effects of alcohol, and there's some really impressive, frightening data on alcohol and its disruption of sleep.
这是一个很好的证明，生长激素似乎更依赖于快速眼动睡眠，这就是为什么我们可以了解酒精的影响，并且有一些关于酒精及其对睡眠的干扰的令人印象深刻、令人恐惧的数据。
But then we also know testosterone.
但我们也知道睾酮。
Peak levels of testosterone happen during REM sleep.
睾丸激素的峰值水平发生在快速眼动睡眠期间。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
So the second half of the night, essentially.
所以基本上是后半夜。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's the second half of the night.
已经是后半夜了。
So it really just means that the Your profile of mental and physical dysfunction will be different under both of those conditions.
所以这实际上只是意味着在这两种情况下，您的精神和身体功能障碍的情况会有所不同。
Which one would you prefer?
您更喜欢哪一个？
I would prefer neither of them, and it really depends on what you're trying to optimize for.
我不喜欢它们，这实际上取决于您想要优化的内容。
So it's just so complex.
所以事情就这么复杂。
Sleep is just so profoundly detrimental to us if you were to take it at face value.
如果你从表面上看，睡眠对我们来说是非常有害的。
You're not finding a mate, you're not reproducing, you're not foraging for food, you're not caring for your young, and worst of all, you're vulnerable to predation.
你找不到伴侣，你没有繁殖，你没有觅食，你没有照顾你的孩子，最糟糕的是，你很容易受到捕食。
On any one of those grounds, sleep probably should have been selected against, but it wasn't.
无论出于何种原因，睡眠可能都应该被排除在外，但事实并非如此。
Sleep has fought its way through heroically, every step along the evolutionary path.
睡眠在进化道路上的每一步都英勇地奋勇前进。
And therefore, every sleep stage has also survived as best we can tell.
因此，据我们所知，每个睡眠阶段都得以幸存。
What that means is that those are non-negotiable.
这意味着这些都是不容谈判的。
If Mother Nature had found a way to even just sort of thin slice some of that sleep from us, there would have been vast, I'm sure, evolutionary benefits.
如果大自然找到了一种方法，哪怕只是从我们身上切掉一些睡眠，我相信，这会对进化带来巨大的好处。
But it looks as though she hasn't, and I'm usually in favor of her wisdom after 3.6 million years.
但看起来她并没有这么做，而且我通常会在 360 万年后赞成她的智慧。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Eight Sleep.
我想稍微休息一下，并向我们的赞助商“八睡”表示感谢。
Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity.
August Sleep 生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。
One of the best ways to ensure a great night's sleep is to make sure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct, and that's because in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees.
确保一夜好眠的最佳方法之一是确保睡眠环境的温度正确，这是因为为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的体温实际上必须下降约一到三度。
And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees.
为了醒来时感觉神清气爽、精力充沛，您的体温实际上必须升高约一到三度。
Eight Sleep automatically regulates the temperature of your bed throughout the night according to your unique needs.
八睡眠会根据您的独特需求自动调节整个晚上的床温。
Eight Sleep has just launched their latest model, the Pod 5, and the Pod 5 has several new important features.
八睡眠刚刚推出了他们的最新型号 Pod 5，Pod 5 有几个新的重要功能。
One of these new features is called Autopilot.
这些新功能之一称为自动驾驶仪。
Autopilot is an AI engine that learns your sleep patterns to adjust the temperature of your sleeping environment across different sleep stages.
Autopilot 是一款人工智能引擎，可以学习您的睡眠模式，以调整不同睡眠阶段的睡眠环境温度。
It also elevates your head if you're snoring, and it makes other shifts to optimize your sleep.
如果您打鼾，它还会抬高您的头部，并进行其他转换以优化您的睡眠。
The base on the Pod 5 also has an integrated speaker that syncs to the Eight Sleep app and can play audio to support relaxation and recovery.
Pod 5 的底座还配有一个集成扬声器，可与八睡眠应用程序同步，并可以播放音频以支持放松和恢复。
The audio catalog includes several NSDR, Non-Sleep Deep Rest, scripts that I worked on with Eight Sleep to record.
音频目录包括几个 NSDR、非睡眠深度休息以及我与“八睡眠”一起录制的脚本。
If you're not familiar, NSDR involves listening to an audio script that walks you through a deep body relaxation combined with some very simple breathing exercises.
如果您不熟悉，NSDR 涉及聆听音频脚本，该音频脚本将引导您进行深度身体放松，并结合一些非常简单的呼吸练习。
NSDR can help offset some of the negative effects of slight sleep deprivation, and NSDR gets you better at falling back asleep should you wake up in the middle of the night.
NSDR 可以帮助抵消轻微睡眠不足的一些负面影响，并且 NSDR 可以让您在半夜醒来时更好地重新入睡。
It's an extremely powerful tool that anyone can benefit from the first time and every time.
这是一个极其强大的工具，任何人第一次和每次都可以从中受益。
If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, go to eightsleep.com/huberman to get up to $350 off the new Pod 5.
如果您想尝试八睡眠，请访问八睡眠.com/huberman，新款 Pod 5 最高可享受 350 美元优惠。
Eight Sleep ships to many countries worldwide, including Mexico and the UAE.
八号睡眠船运往世界各地的许多国家，包括墨西哥和阿联酋。
Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $350.
同样，访问八睡眠.com/huberman 最多可节省 350 美元。
So in this arc of the night, slow-wave sleep predominates early in the night, and then REM sleep.
因此，在夜间的这段弧线中，慢波睡眠在夜里早些时候占主导地位，然后是快速眼动睡眠。
There's a scenario that many people, including myself, experience on a regular basis, which is they go to sleep, sleeping just fine, three, four hours into it, they wake up.
很多人，包括我自己，都会经常经历这样一种情况，那就是他们去睡觉，睡得很好，睡了三、四个小时，他们就醒了。
They wake up for whatever reason.
无论出于何种原因，他们都会醒来。
Maybe there was a noise, maybe the temperature isn't right.
也许有噪音，也许温度不合适。
We will certainly talk about sleep hygiene, et cetera.
我们当然会谈论睡眠卫生等等。
They get up, they go to the restroom.
他们起身，去洗手间。
They might flip on the lights, they might not.
他们可能会打开灯，也可能不会。
They go back to sleep.
他们回去睡觉了。
Let's say after about 10, 15 minutes, they're able to fall back asleep.
假设大约 10、15 分钟后，他们就能重新入睡。
How detrimental is that wake-up episode or event in terms of longevity, learning, et cetera?
就寿命、学习等而言，唤醒事件或事件有多大危害？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It is perfectly natural and normal, particularly as we progress with age.
这是完全自然和正常的，尤其是随着年龄的增长。
At the end of our REM sleep period of the 90-minute cycle, almost everybody wakes up and we make a postural movement.
在 90 分钟周期的快速眼动睡眠期结束时，几乎每个人都会醒来，我们会做一个姿势运动。
We turn over because we've been paralyzed for so long and the body will also like to shift.
我们翻身是因为我们瘫痪太久了，身体也会喜欢转动。
For the most part, I think we can be more relaxed about that.
在大多数情况下，我认为我们对此可以更加放松。
Where we have to be a bit more attentive, though, is if you are spending long periods of time not being able to get back to sleep, and usually we define that by saying if it's been 20, 25 minutes.
不过，我们必须更加注意的地方是，如果您花了很长时间无法重新入睡，通常我们会通过说是否已经过了 20 分钟或 25 分钟来定义这一点。
The other thing is if it's happening very frequently.
另一件事是它是否经常发生。
So even if you're not awake for 25-minute stretches, but you're finding yourself waking up and being consciously aware that you've woken up for maybe six, seven, or eight times throughout the night and your sleep is very, what we call, fragmented.
因此，即使您没有连续 25 分钟保持清醒，但您会发现自己醒来并有意识地意识到自己整个晚上可能醒了六次、七次或八次，而且您的睡眠非常（我们所说的）碎片化。
The great science of sleep in the past five or 10 years has been, yes, quantity is important, but quality is just as important, and you can't have one without the other in terms of a good, beneficial next day outcome.
过去五年或十年间关于睡眠的伟大科学一直是，是的，数量很重要，但质量也同样重要，而且要保证第二天的良好、有益的结果，缺一不可。
You can't just get four hours of sleep, but brilliant quality of sleep and be unimpaired, nor can you get eight hours of sleep but have very poor quality of sleep and be unimpaired the next day.
你不可能只睡四个小时，但睡眠质量很好，而且不受影响；也不可能只睡八小时，但睡眠质量很差，第二天也不受影响。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
I'm a big proponent of people getting some sunlight, ideally sunlight, but other forms of bright light into their eyes early in the day and when they want to be awake.
我非常支持人们在早上和想醒来的时候接受一些阳光照射，最好是阳光，但也可以让其他形式的明亮光线进入眼睛。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yep.
是的。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Essentially during the phase of their 24-hour circadian cycle when temperature is rising, and then starting to get less light in their eyes as our temperature is going down later in the day and in the evening.
基本上是在 24 小时昼夜节律周期的阶段，当温度升高时，然后随着我们的体温在白天晚些时候和晚上下降，进入眼睛的光线开始减少。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think that's exactly what we recommend right now, which is try to get at least 30 to 40 minutes of exposure to some kind of natural daylight.
我认为这正是我们现在建议的，那就是尝试至少 30 到 40 分钟暴露在某种自然光下。
There was some great work recently coming out in the occupational health domain where they moved workers from offices that were just facing walls and didn't have any exposure to natural daylight, and then they did a time period during that study where they actually were in front of a window and working And they measured their sleep, and their sleep time and their sleep efficiency increased quite dramatically.
最近在职业健康领域出现了一些伟大的工作，他们将员工从只面向墙壁且没有任何自然光照射的办公室转移出来，然后他们在研究期间做了一段时间，让他们实际上在窗户前工作，他们测量了他们的睡眠，他们的睡眠时间和睡眠效率显着增加。
I think the increase in total sleep time was well over 30 minutes, and the improvement in sleep efficiency was 5% to 10%.
我认为总睡眠时间的增加远超过30分钟，睡眠效率的提高为5%至10%。
And if you're batting an 80% sleep efficiency average, we're a bit concerned about that.
如果您的平均睡眠效率为 80%，我们会对此感到有点担心。
But add 10% to that, now you're in a great echelon of healthy sleepers.
但再加上 10%，现在您就属于健康睡眠者的梯队了。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
These portals are the only way to convey to the rest of the brain and body about the time of day and wakefulness.
这些门户是向大脑和身体的其他部分传达一天中的时间和清醒状态的唯一方式。
I have a number of questions about caffeine.
我有很多关于咖啡因的问题。
Does the timing in which we ingest caffeine play an important role in whether or not it works for us or against us?
我们摄入咖啡因的时间对于它是否有益或有害有重要作用吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The dose and the timing makes the poison.
剂量和时间决定了毒药。
Caffeine has a half-life, and it's metabolized.
咖啡因有半衰期，并且会被代谢。
The half-life is somewhere between five to six hours, and the quarter life, therefore, is somewhere between 10 to 12 hours.
半衰期约为 5 至 6 小时，因此四分之一寿命约为 10 至 12 小时。
It's variable.
它是可变的。
Different people have different durations of its action, but for the average adult, five to six hours.
不同的人其作用持续时间不同，但一般成年人为五到六个小时。
So let's say that I've been awake for 12 hours now, and it's 8:00 PM, and I'm feeling a bit tired, but I want to push through, and I want to keep working for another couple of hours, so I have a cup of coffee.
假设我已经醒了 12 个小时，现在是晚上 8:00，我感觉有点累，但我想坚持下去，我想继续工作几个小时，所以我喝了一杯咖啡。
All of a sudden, I was feeling tired, but I don't feel like I've been awake for 12 hours anymore.
突然间，我感觉很累，但我感觉自己已经12个小时没有睡觉了。
Then after a few hours and the caffeine is starting to come out of my system, not only am I hit with the same levels of adenosine that I had before I'd had the cup of coffee several hours ago, it's that plus all of the adenosine that's been building up during the time that the caffeine has been in my system.
几个小时后，咖啡因开始从我的系统中排出，我不仅体内的腺苷水平与几个小时前喝咖啡之前的水平相同，而且还加上咖啡因进入我的系统期间积累的所有腺苷。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
So sort of an avalanche of-
有点像雪崩——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It is a tsunami wave, yeah.
这是海啸，是的。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I have a caffeine crash.
我有咖啡因崩溃。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Given somebody who typically gets into bed around 10:00, 10:30 and falls asleep around 11:00, 11:30-
假设有人通常在 10:00、10:30 左右上床睡觉，并在 11:00、11:30 左右入睡-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
...
...
when would you recommend they halt caffeine intake?
你什么时候建议他们停止摄入咖啡因？
And these are not strict prescriptives, but I think people do benefit from having some fairly clear guidelines of what-
这些并不是严格的规定，但我认为人们确实可以从一些相当明确的指导方针中受益——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
...
...
might work for them.
可能对他们有用。
Would you say cut off caffeine by what time of the day?
你会说在一天中的什么时间停止摄入咖啡因吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I would usually say take your typical bedtime and count back 10 hours or eight hours of time.
我通常会说，按照你通常的就寝时间倒数 10 小时或 8 小时。
That's the time when you should really stop using caffeine, is the suggestion.
建议您在此时真正停止使用咖啡因。
And the reason is because for those people who even just keep drinking up until into the evening, you're right that they can fall asleep fine.
原因是因为对于那些一直喝酒到晚上的人来说，你说得对，他们可以睡得很好。
Maybe they stay asleep, but the depth of their deep sleep is not as deep anymore.
也许他们还在睡觉，但他们的深度睡眠深度不再那么深了。
And so there are two consequences.
所以有两个后果。
The first is that for me, and it can be up to by 30%, and for me to drop your deep sleep by 30%, I'd have to age you by between 10 to 12 years, or you can just do it every night to yourself with a couple of espressos.
第一个是对我来说，最多可以减少 30%，如果我要让你的深度睡眠减少 30%，我就必须让你衰老 10 到 12 岁，或者你可以每天晚上自己喝几杯浓缩咖啡。
The second is that you then wake up the next morning and you think, "Well, I didn't have problems falling asleep and I didn't have problems staying asleep, but I don't feel particularly restored by my sleep." So now I'm reaching for three or four cups of coffee the next morning, rather than just two or three cups of coffee.
第二个是，第二天早上醒来时，你会想：“嗯，我入睡没有问题，保持睡眠也没有问题，但我感觉睡眠并没有特别恢复。”所以现在我第二天早上会喝三四杯咖啡，而不仅仅是两三杯咖啡。
And so goes this dependency cycle that you then need your uppers to wake you up in the morning, and then sometimes people will use alcohol in the evening to bring them down because they're overly caffeinated.
这样就形成了这样的依赖循环：早上你需要你的上半身来叫醒你，然后有时人们会在晚上用酒精来让你清醒，因为他们摄入了过多的咖啡因。
And alcohol, and we can speak about that too, also has very deleterious impacts on your sleep as well.
我们也可以谈论酒精，它也会对您的睡眠产生非常有害的影响。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Caffeine and alcohol represent the kind of two opposite ends of the spectrum.
咖啡因和酒精代表了光谱的两端。
What happens when somebody has a glass-- We always hear a glass or two of wine in the evening or a cocktail after dinner.
当有人喝一杯时会发生什么——我们总是听到晚上喝一两杯酒或晚餐后喝鸡尾酒。
How does that impact their sleep?
这对他们的睡眠有何影响？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So alcohol, if we're thinking about classes of drugs, they're in a class of drugs that we call the sedatives.
所以酒精，如果我们考虑药物类别，它们属于我们称之为镇静剂的一类药物。
It's sedating your cortex.
它可以镇静你的皮质。
And sedation is not sleep.
镇静并不是睡眠。
But when we have a couple of drinks in the evening, when we have a couple of night caps, we mistake sedation for sleep, saying, "Well, I always, when I have a couple of whiskeys or a couple of cocktails, it always helps me fall asleep faster." In truth, what's happening is that you're losing consciousness quicker, but you're not necessarily falling naturalistically asleep any quicker.
但是，当我们晚上喝了几杯酒，喝了几杯睡前饮料时，我们会误认为镇静剂是睡眠，我们会说：“嗯，我总是，当我喝几杯威士忌或几杯鸡尾酒时，它总是能帮助我更快入睡。”事实上，发生的情况是你失去意识的速度更快，但你不一定更快地自然入睡。
So that's one of the first sort of things just to keep in mind.
所以这是首先要记住的事情之一。
The second thing with alcohol is that it fragments your sleep, and we spoke about the quality of your sleep being just as important as the quantity.
酒精的第二件事是它会破坏你的睡眠，我们谈到睡眠质量和睡眠数量一样重要。
And alcohol, through a variety of mechanisms, some of which are activation of that autonomic nervous system, that fight or flight branch of the nervous system, alcohol will actually have you waking up many more times throughout the night, so your sleep is far less continuous.
而酒精，通过多种机制，其中一些是激活自主神经系统，即神经系统的战斗或逃跑分支，酒精实际上会让你在整个晚上醒来更多次，所以你的睡眠会变得不那么连续。
Now, some of those awakenings will be of conscious recollection the next day.
现在，其中一些觉醒将在第二天有意识地回忆起来。
You'll just remember waking up.
你只会记得醒来。
Many of them won't be.
他们中的许多人不会。
But yet your sleep will be littered with these sort of punctured awakenings throughout the night, and again, when you wake up the next morning, you don't feel restored by your sleep.
但整晚你的睡眠都会被这种被刺破的觉醒所充斥，而且，当你第二天早上醒来时，你也不会感觉自己因睡眠而恢复了。
The third part of alcohol in terms of an equation is that it's quite potent at blocking your REM sleep, your rapid eye movement sleep.
从方程式来看，酒精的第三部分是它非常有效地阻止您的快速眼动睡眠，即快速眼动睡眠。
And REM sleep is critical for a variety of cognitive functions, some aspects of learning and memory.
快速眼动睡眠对于多种认知功能、学习和记忆的某些方面至关重要。
It seems to be critical for aspects of emotional and mental health.
这似乎对情绪和心理健康方面至关重要。
It's overnight therapy.
这是过夜疗法。
What we've discovered over the past 20 years here at the Sleep Center is that there is no major psychiatric disorder that we can find in which sleep is normal.
过去 20 年来，我们在睡眠中心发现，没有一种重大精神疾病的睡眠是正常的。
And so I think that firstly told us there is a very intimate association between your emotional mental health and your sleep health.
因此，我认为这首先告诉我们，您的情绪心理健康与睡眠健康之间存在非常密切的关联。
I don't want to be puritanical here.
我不想在这里变得清教徒。
I'm just a scientist, and I'm not here to tell anyone how to live.
我只是一名科学家，我不是来告诉任何人如何生活的。
All I'm trying to do is empower people with some of the scientific literature regarding sleep, and then you can make whatever informed choices that you want.
我想做的就是向人们提供一些有关睡眠的科学文献，然后你就可以做出你想要的任何明智的选择。
My job is not to tell people a prescription for life.
我的工作不是告诉人们生活的处方。
It's just to offer some scientific information.
只是为了提供一些科学信息。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
I would like to ask about marijuana.
我想问一下大麻的事。
In many places, not all, medical marijuana is approved or is legal.
在许多地方，并非所有地方，医用大麻都获得批准或合法。
Does marijuana disrupt sleep?
大麻会扰乱睡眠吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
THC seems to speed up the time with which you fall asleep.
THC 似乎可以加快您入睡的时间。
But again, if you look at the electrical brainwave signature of your falling asleep with and without that THC, it's not going to be an ideal fit.
但同样，如果你观察有或没有 THC 入睡时的脑电波特征，你会发现这并不是一个理想的选择。
So you could argue it's non-natural.
所以你可以说这是不自然的。
It too, but through different mechanisms, seems to block REM sleep.
它也似乎通过不同的机制阻碍快速眼动睡眠。
And that's why a lot of people when they're using will tell me, "Look, I definitely was dreaming.
这就是为什么很多人在使用时会告诉我，“看，我绝对是在做梦。
I don't remember many of my dreams." And then when they stop using THC, they'll say, "I was having just crazy dreams." And the reason is because there is a rebound mechanism.
我不记得很多梦了。”然后当他们停止使用 THC 时，他们会说，“我只是做了疯狂的梦。”而原因就是因为有反弹机制。
REM sleep is very clever, and alcohol is the same way in this sense.
快速眼动睡眠非常聪明，从这个意义上来说，酒精也是如此。
It's the same homeostatic mechanism.
这是相同的稳态机制。
Some people will tell me, "Look, if I have a bit of a wild Friday night with some alcohol, maybe I'll sleep late into the next morning, and I'll just have these really intense dreams.
有些人会告诉我，“听着，如果我周五晚上喝点酒度过一个疯狂的夜晚，也许我会睡到第二天早上，然后我就会做这些非常强烈的梦。
And I thought I wasn't having any REM sleep." Well, the way it works is that it's during in the middle of the night, really, when alcohol blocks your REM sleep.
我以为我没有进行快速眼动睡眠。”嗯，它的工作原理是在半夜，实际上，酒精会阻碍你的快速眼动睡眠。
And your brain is smart.
而且你的大脑很聪明。
It understands how much REM sleep you should have had, how much REM sleep you have not because the alcohol's been in the system.
它了解您应该有多少快速眼动睡眠，以及由于酒精进入系统而导致您没有多少快速眼动睡眠。
And finally, in those early morning hours when you're getting through to 6:00, 7:00, 8:00 a.m.-
最后，在凌晨 6:00、7:00、8:00 时-
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
REM light, crazy
REM 轻，疯狂
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
all of a sudden, your brain not only goes back to having the same amount of REM it would've had, it does that, plus it tries to get back all of the REM sleep that it's lost.
突然之间，你的大脑不仅恢复到原来的快速眼动睡眠时间，而且它还试图恢复所有失去的快速眼动睡眠。
Does it get back all of the REM sleep?
它能恢复所有的快速眼动睡眠吗？
No, it doesn't.
不，事实并非如此。
It never gets back all of the REM sleep, but it tries.
它永远不会恢复所有的快速眼动睡眠，但它会尝试。
And so you have these really intense periods of REM sleep, hence you have really intense, bizarre dreams.
所以你会有非常强烈的快速眼动睡眠期，因此你会做非常强烈、奇怪的梦。
And that's what happens also with THC.
THC 也会发生这种情况。
You build up this pressure for REM sleep, this debt for REM sleep.
你为快速眼动睡眠积累了这种压力，为快速眼动睡眠建立了这种债务。
Will you ever pay it back?
你会还钱吗？
Doesn't seem as though you get back everything that you lost.
似乎你失去的一切都没有回来。
But will you get back some of it?
但你会拿回一些吗？
Yes.
是的。
The brain will start to devour more because it's been starved of REM sleep for so long.
大脑会开始吃更多的东西，因为它已经长期缺乏快速眼动睡眠了。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
I'd like to take a quick break and thank one of our sponsors, ROKA.
我想稍微休息一下，并感谢我们的赞助商之一 ROKA。
ROKA makes eyeglasses and sunglasses that are the absolute highest quality.
ROKA 生产绝对最高品质的眼镜和太阳镜。
I've been wearing ROKA readers and sunglasses for years now, and I absolutely love them.
我多年来一直佩戴 ROKA 阅读器和太阳镜，我非常喜欢它们。
They're lightweight, they have superb optics, and they have lots of frames to choose from.
它们重量轻，具有出色的光学性能，并且有多种镜框可供选择。
ROKA and I recently teamed up to create a new pair of red lens glasses.
ROKA 和我最近联手打造了一副新的红色镜片眼镜。
These red lens glasses are meant to be worn in the evening after the sun goes down.
这些红色镜片的眼镜适合在晚上太阳落山后佩戴。
They filter out short wavelength light that comes from screens and from LED lights, which are the most common indoor lighting nowadays.
它们过滤掉来自屏幕和 LED 灯的短波长光，这是当今最常见的室内照明。
I want to emphasize ROKA red lens glasses are not traditional blue blockers.
我想强调的是，ROKA 红色镜片眼镜不是传统的防蓝光眼镜。
They do filter out blue light, but they filter out a lot more than just blue light.
它们确实过滤掉蓝光，但它们过滤的不仅仅是蓝光。
In fact, they filter out the full range of short wavelength light that suppresses the hormone melatonin.
事实上，它们会过滤掉所有抑制褪黑激素的短波长光。
By the way, you want melatonin high in the evening and at night.
顺便说一句，您需要在傍晚和夜间获得高浓度的褪黑激素。
Makes it easy to fall and stay asleep.
让人很容易入睡并保持睡眠状态。
And those short wavelengths trigger increases in cortisol.
这些短波长会引发皮质醇的增加。
Increases in cortisol are great in the early part of the day, but you do not want increases in cortisol in the evening and at night.
一天中的早些时候，皮质醇会大量增加，但您不希望傍晚和晚上皮质醇会增加。
These ROKA red lens glasses ensure normal, healthy increases in melatonin and that your cortisol levels stay low, which is, again, what you want in the evening and at night.
这些 ROKA 红色镜片眼镜可确保褪黑激素正常、健康地增加，并使您的皮质醇水平保持在较低水平，这也是您在晚上和晚上想要的。
In doing so, these ROKA red lens glasses really help you calm down and improve your transition to sleep.
通过这样做，这些 ROKA 红色镜片眼镜确实可以帮助您平静下来并改善您的睡眠过渡。
ROKA red lens glasses also look great.
ROKA 红色镜片眼镜也很好看。
They have a ton of different frames to select from, and you can wear them out to dinner or concerts, and you can still see things.
他们有大量不同的镜框可供选择，你可以戴着它们去参加晚宴或音乐会，但你仍然可以看到东西。
I don't recommend you wear them while driving, just for safety purposes, but if you're out to dinner, you're at a concert, you're at a friend's house, or you're just at home, pop those ROKA red lens glasses on and you'll really notice the difference in terms of your levels of calm and all the sleep stuff I mentioned earlier.
我不建议您在开车时佩戴它们，只是为了安全起见，但如果您出去吃饭、听音乐会、在朋友家，或者只是在家，戴上 ROKA 红色镜片眼镜，您会真正注意到平静程度和我之前提到的所有睡眠方面的差异。
If you'd like to try ROKA, go to roka.com.
如果您想尝试 ROKA，请访问 roka.com。
That's R-O-K-A dot com, and enter the code Huberman to save 20% off your first order.
这是 R-O-K-A dot com，输入代码 Huberman 即可在首次订单时节省 20%。
Again, that's roka.com and enter the code Huberman at checkout.
同样，这是 roka.com，并在结账时输入代码 Huberman。
So I'd love to chat for a moment about the original, I should say, not the granddaddy, but the OG of sleep supplementation, which is melatonin.
所以我想聊聊最初的，我应该说，不是祖父，而是睡眠补充的元老，即褪黑激素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
I was always taught, and I'm assuming it's still true, that the only source of melatonin in the brain and body is the pineal gland.
我总是被教导，并且我认为这仍然是正确的，大脑和身体中褪黑激素的唯一来源是松果体。
Is that still true?
这仍然是真的吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It seems to be from best that we can tell.
据我们所知，这似乎是最好的。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
I have to imagine we have melatonin receptors in the brain and body.
我必须想象我们的大脑和身体里都有褪黑激素受体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's correct.
这是正确的。
Essentially, your brain has a central master 24-hour clock called the suprachiasmatic nucleus that keeps internal time.
从本质上讲，您的大脑有一个称为视交叉上核的 24 小时中央主时钟，负责记录内部时间。
Now, it knows 24-hour time, but it needs to tell the rest of the brain and the body the 24-hour time as well.
现在，它知道 24 小时时间，但它还需要告诉大脑和身体的其他部分 24 小时时间。
And one of the ways that it does this is by communicating a chemical signal of 24-hourness of light and day using this hormone melatonin.
实现这一目标的方法之一是使用褪黑激素来传达 24 小时光和白天的化学信号。
And when it is at low levels or it's nonexistent, it's communicating the message it's daytime.
当它处于低水平或不存在时，它正在传达白天的信息。
And for us, diurnal species, it says it's time to be awake.
对于我们这些白天活动的物种来说，它告诉我们是时候醒来了。
Yet, at nighttime, when dusk approaches and the brake comes off melatonin and we start to release it, then it signals to the rest of the brain and the body, "Look, it's dusk and it's nighttime, and for us, diurnal species, it's time to think about sleep." So melatonin essentially tells the brain and the body when it's day and when it's night, and with that, when it's time to sleep, when it's time to wake, but it doesn't really help with the generation of sleep itself, and this is where we'll come onto what those studies of supplementation have taught us.
然而，到了晚上，当黄昏来临，褪黑激素停止作用，我们开始释放它时，它就会向大脑和身体的其他部分发出信号，“看，黄昏了，现在是夜间了，对于我们这些白天活动的物种来说，是时候考虑睡眠了。”因此，褪黑素本质上告诉大脑和身体什么时候是白天，什么时候是晚上，以及什么时候该睡觉，什么时候该醒来，但它并不能真正帮助睡眠本身的产生，这就是我们将要了解那些补充剂研究所教给我们的地方。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
So it tells the rest of my brain and body it's time to go to sleep.
所以它告诉我的大脑和身体的其他部分是时候睡觉了。
It perhaps even aids with the transition to sleep.
它甚至可能有助于过渡到睡眠。
But it's not going to, for instance, ensure the overall structure of sleep or it's not the conductor that's guiding the sleep orchestra, so to speak, throughout the entire night.
但它不会，例如，确保睡眠的整体结构，或者可以说，整个晚上都不是指挥睡眠管弦乐队的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Melatonin is like the starting official at the 100-meter race in the Olympics.
褪黑素就像奥运会百米赛跑的起跑官员。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
That's a better analogy.
这是一个更好的比喻。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It calls all of the sleep racers to the line, and it begins the great sleep race.
它号召所有的睡眠竞赛者到终点线，并开始了伟大的睡眠竞赛。
But it doesn't participate in the race itself.
但它本身并不参加比赛。
That's a whole different set of brain chemicals and brain regions.
这是一套完全不同的大脑化学物质和大脑区域。
Which then brings us on to perhaps the question of supplementation, which is it helpful for my sleep?
这或许给我们带来了补充的问题，它对我的睡眠有帮助吗？
Will I sleep longer?
我会睡得更久吗？
Will I sleep better?
我会睡得更好吗？
Sadly, the evidence in healthy adults who are not older age suggests that melatonin is not really particularly helpful as a sleep aid.
遗憾的是，针对年龄不较大的健康成年人的证据表明，褪黑激素作为睡眠辅助剂并不是特别有帮助。
I think there was a recent meta-analysis, and what that meta-analysis told us is that melatonin will only increase total amount of sleep by 3.9 minutes on average.
我认为最近有一项荟萃分析，该荟萃分析告诉我们的是，褪黑激素只会使总睡眠时间平均增加 3.9 分钟。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Minutes?
分钟？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Minutes.
分钟。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Not even percent.
连百分比都没有。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, and it will only increase your sleep efficiency by 2.2%.
不会，它只会让你的睡眠效率提高 2.2%。
So the source is not strong, the force is not strong in this one when it comes to a tool that in healthy people who are not of older age, it doesn't seem to be especially beneficial.
因此，当涉及到一种工具时，其来源并不强大，力量也不强，对于年龄不大的健康人来说，它似乎并不是特别有益。
Now, results can vary.
现在，结果可能会有所不同。
Everyone is different, of course.
当然，每个人都不同。
So we're talking about the average, the so-called average human adult here.
所以我们在这里谈论的是平均水平，即所谓的平均成人。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Well, melatonin, in defense of what you're saying, and also I should mention, I have a colleague at Stanford, Jamie Zeitzer, who you know.
好吧，褪黑激素，为了捍卫你的说法，我还应该提一下，我在斯坦福大学有一位同事，杰米·蔡泽尔（Jamie Zeitzer），你认识他。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, wonderful.
哦，太棒了。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Chuck Zeitzer's lab at Harvard Med where he also trained.
查克·蔡策 (Chuck Zeitzer) 在哈佛医学院的实验室也曾在那里接受过培训。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Brilliant.
太棒了。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Terrific sleep researcher, and I asked him about melatonin, and he essentially said the same thing that you just said, which is very little, if any, evidence that it can improve sleep, and yet it's probably the most commonly consumed so-called sleep aid.
很棒的睡眠研究员，我向他询问了褪黑激素，他基本上说了你刚才说的同样的话，这很少（如果有的话）证据表明它可以改善睡眠，但它可能是最常见的所谓睡眠辅助剂。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hundreds of million dollars industry.
数亿美元的产业。
The only population where we typically see some benefit, and it often is prescribed, is in older adults.
我们通常会看到一些益处并且经常被规定的唯一人群是老年人。
Because as we-
因为当我们——
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Older meaning 60 and older?
老年是指60岁以上吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, 60, 65 and older.
是的，60岁、65岁及以上。
Because as we get older, you can typically have what's called calcification of the pineal gland, which means that that gland that's releasing melatonin doesn't work as well anymore.
因为随着年龄的增长，通常会出现所谓的松果体钙化，这意味着释放褪黑激素的腺体不再发挥作用。
That's why older adults can have problems falling asleep or staying asleep.
这就是为什么老年人可能会出现入睡或保持睡眠问题的原因。
It's not the only reason by any stretch of the imagination, but it's one of the reasons, and it's why melatonin supplementation in those cohorts, older adults, especially older adults with insomnia, people have thought about that as maybe an appropriate use case.
无论怎么想，这都不是唯一的原因，但它是原因之一，这就是为什么在这些人群中补充褪黑激素，老年人，尤其是患有失眠的老年人，人们认为这可能是一个合适的用例。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Do we know how much melatonin is typically released into the bloodstream per night?
我们知道每晚通常会释放多少褪黑激素到血液中吗？
And can we use that as a kind of a rule of thumb by which to compare the typical amount that someone would supplement?
我们可以用它作为一种经验法则来比较某人补充的典型金额吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
I mean, typically the supplements for melatonin that I see in the pharmacy and elsewhere and online range anywhere from one milligram to 12 or even 20 milligrams.
我的意思是，我在药房、其他地方和网上看到的褪黑激素补充剂通常含量从 1 毫克到 12 毫克甚至 20 毫克不等。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yep.
是的。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
My guess is that a normal night's release of melatonin, typical for somebody in their 20s, 30s, 40s, would be far lower than that.
我的猜测是，对于 20 多岁、30 多岁、40 多岁的人来说，正常晚上释放的褪黑激素会远远低于这个数字。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's-
这是——
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Am I correct or wrong?
我是对还是错？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it's at many magnitudes lower, and this is one of the problems is that I see that too.
是的，它要低很多，这是问题之一，我也看到了这一点。
I see typical doses are 5 milligrams or 10 milligrams.
我看到典型的剂量是 5 毫克或 10 毫克。
And of course, if you're a supplement company, putting 10 milligrams versus 5 milligrams, if that's what you're actually doing, it's kind of like the Super Gulp size.
当然，如果你是一家补充剂公司，添加 10 毫克与 5 毫克，如果这就是你实际做的，那就有点像 Super Gulp 的尺寸。
Nobody wants to lower price.
没有人愿意降低价格。
They just want you to, "We'll just give you more for the same price, and that's how we'll compete." So it's been this escalating arms race of melatonin concentration, and it really does not look meaningful for sleep in any way.
他们只是希望你，“我们会以同样的价格为你提供更多，这就是我们的竞争方式。”因此，褪黑激素浓度的军备竞赛不断升级，而且它看起来对睡眠确实没有任何意义。
What we've actually found is that the optimal doses for where you do get sleep benefits in the populations that we've looked at are somewhere between 0.1 and 0.3 milligrams of melatonin.
我们实际上发现，在我们研究的人群中，获得睡眠益处的最佳褪黑激素剂量在 0.1 至 0.3 毫克之间。
In other words, the typical doses are usually 10 times, 20 times, maybe more than what your body would naturally expect, and this is what we call a supraphysiological dose.
换句话说，典型的剂量通常是你的身体自然预期的10倍、20倍，甚至更多，这就是我们所说的超生理剂量。
In other words, it's far above what is physiologically normal.
换句话说，它远远高于生理正常值。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
I like to think in terms of manipulating any aspect of our biology, that behavioral tools always are the first line of entry.
我喜欢认为，就操纵我们生物学的任何方面而言，行为工具始终是第一道切入点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Then nutrition, everyone has to eat sooner or later, even if you're fasting.
然后是营养，每个人早晚都要吃东西，即使你是禁食的。
Then perhaps supplementation, then prescription drugs, and then perhaps brain machine interface devices that you use to induce something, and those could be done in combination.
然后也许是补充剂，然后是处方药，然后也许是用来诱导某些东西的脑机接口设备，这些可以结合起来完成。
But what concerns me is when I hear people say, "Well, what should I take?" Without thinking about their behavior, their light viewing behavior, et cetera.
但令我担心的是，当我听到人们说：“好吧，我应该吃什么？”不考虑他们的行为、他们的光观察行为等等。
But of course, these things work in combination.
当然，这些东西是结合在一起发挥作用的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When it comes to sleep, there are many low-hanging fruits that don't necessarily require you to put sort of exogenous molecules, in other words, things like supplements into your body or use different types of drugs to help you get there.
当谈到睡眠时，有许多容易实现的目标，并不一定需要您将某种外源性分子放入您的体内，换句话说，将补充剂之类的东西放入您的体内或使用不同类型的药物来帮助您达到目标。
Now, when it comes to prescription sleep aids, I think I've been, again, a little bit too forthright.
现在，当谈到处方助眠剂时，我想我再次有点过于直率了。
We know in clinical practice that there may be a time and a place for things like sleeping pills.
我们在临床实践中知道，安眠药之类的东西可能有使用的时间和地点。
They are a short-term solution to certain forms of insomnia, but they are not recommended for the long term.
它们是某些形式失眠的短期解决方案，但不建议长期使用。
And we also know that there are lots of other ways that you can get a sleep help, or you can get a sleep curative profile from things like cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia, which is a non-drug approach, a psychological-
我们还知道，还有很多其他方法可以帮助您获得睡眠，或者您可以通过治疗失眠的认知行为疗法等方法获得睡眠疗效，这是一种非药物方法，一种心理治疗方法。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
And quite effective from what I understand.
据我了解，非常有效。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very.
非常。
Just as effective as sleeping pills.
和安眠药一样有效。
Great data.
很棒的数据。
More effective in the long term.
从长远来看更有效。
There was a recent study published that after working with that therapist, some of the benefits lasted almost a decade.
最近发表的一项研究表明，与该治疗师合作后，一些好处持续了近十年。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Amazing.
太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now, if you stop sleeping pills, usually you have rebound insomnia, where your sleep goes back to being just as bad if not worse.
现在，如果您停止服用安眠药，通常您会出现失眠反弹，您的睡眠会再次变得同样糟糕，甚至更糟。
And I think the same is true when we think about supplementation.
我认为当我们考虑补充时也是如此。
There are so many things that are easy to implement when it comes to sleep that don't require venturing out into those waters.
在睡眠方面，有很多事情很容易实现，不需要冒险进入这些水域。
And again, we're not here to tell anyone about whether they should venture or not.
再说一遍，我们并不是来告诉任何人是否应该冒险的。
That's completely your choice.
这完全是你的选择。
All I'm saying is that if you want to think about optimizing your sleep, there are a number of ways that you can do it that don't necessarily require you to swallow anything or inject anything or smoke anything or-
我想说的是，如果你想考虑优化你的睡眠，有很多方法可以做到这一点，不一定需要你吞咽任何东西或注射任何东西或吸烟任何东西或-
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
three ways.
三种方式。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
And for which the margins of safety are quite wide.
而且安全边际相当大。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Let's talk about naps I love naps.
我们来谈谈小睡吧，我喜欢小睡。
I come from a long history of nappers.
我有着悠久的午睡历史。
What are the data on naps, and what are your thoughts about keeping naps short, meaning 20 to 30 minutes versus getting out past 90 minutes, two hours?
关于小睡的数据有哪些？您对缩短小睡时间（即 20 到 30 分钟）与超过 90 分钟、两个小时的小睡有何看法？
Yay, nay, or meh?
是的，不，还是嗯？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Naps can have some really great benefits.
午睡确实有一些很大的好处。
We found benefits for cardiovascular health, blood pressure, for example.
我们发现它对心血管健康、血压等都有好处。
We found benefits for levels of cortisol.
我们发现皮质醇水平的好处。
We found benefits for learning and memory, and also emotional regulation.
我们发现它对学习和记忆以及情绪调节都有好处。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
How long are the naps typically in those studies?
这些研究中小睡的时间通常是多长？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Anywhere between 20 minutes to 90 minutes.
20 分钟到 90 分钟之间的任意时间。
Sometimes we like to use a 90-minute window so that the participant can have a full cycle of sleep, and therefore they get both non-REM and REM sleep within that time period.
有时我们喜欢使用 90 分钟的窗口，以便参与者可以拥有完整的睡眠周期，因此他们在该时间段内同时获得非快速眼动睡眠和快速眼动睡眠。
And then we correlate how much benefit did you get from the nap, and how much of that benefit was explained by what REM sleep you got, what deep sleep you got, what light sleep you got.
然后我们将您从小睡中获得的益处与您从小睡中获得的益处相关联，以及其中有多少益处是通过您的快速眼动睡眠、深度睡眠和浅度睡眠来解释的。
What we've also found is that naps of as little as 17 minutes can have some quite potent effects on, for example, learning.
我们还发现，短至 17 分钟的小睡就能对学习等方面产生相当显着的影响。
None of this is novel.
这些都不是什么新鲜事。
NASA pioneered this back in the 1990s.
NASA 在 20 世纪 90 年代率先采用了这一技术。
And during the missions, they were experimenting with naps for their astronauts.
在任务期间，他们正在尝试让宇航员小睡。
And what they found was that naps of little as 26 minutes improved mission performance by 34% and improved daytime alertness by 50%.
他们发现，只要小睡 26 分钟，任务表现就能提高 34%，白天的警觉性提高 50%。
And it birthed what was then called the NASA Nap Culture throughout all terrestrial NASA staff during that time period.
在那段时期，它在所有地面 NASA 工作人员中诞生了当时所谓的 NASA 午睡文化。
So it's long been known that naps can have a benefit.
因此，人们早就知道小睡有好处。
Naps, however, can have a double-edged sword.
然而，小睡也是一把双刃剑。
There is a dark side to naps.
小睡也有不好的一面。
When you nap, you are essentially opening the valve on the pressure cooker of sleep pressure, and some of that sleepiness is lost by way of the nap.
当你小睡时，你实际上是在打开睡眠压力高压锅上的阀门，而一些睡意会通过小睡而消失。
Some people, however, if they are struggling with sleep at night and they nap during the day, it makes their sleep problems even worse.
然而，有些人如果晚上睡眠困难，而白天打瞌睡，就会使他们的睡眠问题变得更加严重。
So for people with insomnia, we typically advise against napping.
因此，对于失眠的人，我们通常建议不要小睡。
And the advice is, if you can nap regularly and you don't struggle with sleep at night, then naps are just fine.
我们的建议是，如果你能定期小睡，并且晚上不难入睡，那么小睡就可以了。
But if you do struggle with sleep, stay away from naps.
但如果您确实难以入睡，请远离小睡。
If you are going to nap, try to limit your naps, try to cut them off a bit like sort of caffeine, maybe eight to 12 hours, maybe not that far off, maybe seven to six hours is a good rule of thumb.
如果你要小睡，试着限制你的小睡，试着像咖啡因一样停止小睡，也许八到十二小时，也许不是那么远，也许七到六个小时是一个很好的经验法则。
Try not to nap essentially late in the afternoon.
尽量不要在下午晚些时候小睡。
And if you do take a nap and you don't want to have that grogginess hangover that can happen after a full night of sleep for the first hour, try to limit it to about 20, 25 minutes, and that way you don't go down into the very deepest stages of sleep, which if I wrench you out of with an alarm, you almost feel worse.
如果你确实要小睡一下，并且不想在睡了一整夜的第一个小时后出现那种昏昏沉沉的宿醉状态，请尝试将其限制在 20、25 分钟左右，这样你就不会进入最深的睡眠阶段，如果我用闹钟把你从睡眠中拉出来，你几乎会感觉更糟。
No one should feel guilty about getting the sleep that they need.
没有人应该因为获得所需的睡眠而感到内疚。
And I think that's been one of the big problems in society.
我认为这是社会的大问题之一。
Society has stigmatized sleep with these labels of being slothful or lazy, and we're almost embarrassed to tell colleagues that we take a nap.
社会给睡眠贴上了懒惰或懒惰的标签，我们几乎不好意思告诉同事我们在小睡。
I think sleep is a right of human beings, and I therefore think that sleep is a civil right of all human beings, and no one should make you feel unproud of getting the sleep that you need.
我认为睡眠是人类的一项权利，因此我认为睡眠是全人类的一项公民权利，任何人都不应该让你为获得所需的睡眠而感到不自豪。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。
AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens.
AG1 是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮料，还包含益生元和适应原。
As somebody who's been involved in research science for almost three decades and in health and fitness for equally as long, I'm constantly looking for the best tools to improve my mental health, physical health, and performance.
作为一个从事科学研究近三十年以及同样长期从事健康和健身工作的人，我一直在寻找最好的工具来改善我的心理健康、身体健康和表现。
I discovered AG1 back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since.
我早在 2012 年就发现了 AG1，那时我还没有播客，从那时起我就每天都在服用它。
I find it improves all aspects of my health, my energy, my focus, and I simply feel much better when I take it.
我发现它改善了我的健康、精力、注意力的各个方面，而且服用它后我感觉好多了。
AG1 uses the highest quality ingredients in the right combinations, and they're constantly improving their formulas without increasing the cost.
AG1 使用最优质的成分进行正确的组合，并且在不增加成本的情况下不断改进其配方。
In fact, AG1 just launched their latest formula upgrade.
事实上，AG1刚刚推出了他们最新的配方升级。
This next gen formula is based on exciting new research on the effects of probiotics on the gut microbiome, and it now includes several clinically studied probiotic strains shown to support both digestive health and immune system health, as well as to improve bowel regularity and to reduce bloating.
这种下一代配方基于关于益生菌对肠道微生物组影响的令人兴奋的新研究，它现在包含几种经过临床研究的益生菌菌株，这些菌株显示出支持消化健康和免疫系统健康，以及改善肠道规律性和减少腹胀。
Whenever I'm asked if I could take just one supplement, what that supplement would be, I always say AG1.
每当我被问到是否可以只服用一种补充剂时，我总是说 AG1。
If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman。
For a limited time, AG1 is giving away a free one-month supply of omega-3 fish oil, along with a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2.
AG1 限时免费赠送一个月的 omega-3 鱼油，以及一瓶维生素 D3 加 K2。
As I've highlighted before on this podcast, omega-3 fish oil and vitamin D3 K2 have been shown to help with everything from mood and brain health, to heart health, to healthy hormone status, and much more.
正如我之前在此播客中强调的那样，omega-3 鱼油和维生素 D3 K2 已被证明对改善情绪和大脑健康、心脏健康、健康激素状态等各个方面都有帮助。
Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman to get a free one-month supply of omega-3 fish oil, plus a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2 with your subscription.
再次强调，您可以通过 Drinkag1.com/huberman 获得一个月的免费 omega-3 鱼油，以及一瓶维生素 D3 和 K2。
Are there any unconventional sleep tips, the what if kind of things that what if it turns out that, and here I've got a blank there for you to fill in.
有没有什么非常规的睡眠技巧，如果事实证明是这样的话会怎样，这里我有一个空白供您填写。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The first one, which is unconventional along the lines of naps, if you've had a bad night of sleep, do nothing.
第一个是非常规的小睡，如果你昨晚睡得不好，那就什么也不做。
What I mean by that is don't wake up any later, don't sleep in the following day to try and make up for it, don't nap during the day, don't consume extra caffeine to wake you up to try to get you through the day, and don't go to bed any earlier to think that you're going to compensate.
我的意思是，不要起得晚，不要在第二天睡觉来试图弥补，不要在白天小睡，不要摄入额外的咖啡因来叫醒你，试图让你度过这一天，也不要提前上床睡觉，以为你会补偿。
If you wake up later, you're not going to be sleepy until later the evening, so you're going to go to bed at your normal time, and you won't be sleeping.
如果你起得较晚，那么直到晚上晚些时候你才会感到困倦，所以你会在正常时间上床睡觉，而且你不会睡觉。
You'll think, "Well, I just came off a bad night of sleep, and now I can't even get to sleep, and it's my normal time." It's because you slept in later than you would otherwise, and you reduce the window of adenosine accumulation before your normal bedtime.
你会想，“好吧，我刚刚睡了一个糟糕的夜晚，现在我什至无法入睡，而这是我的正常时间。”这是因为您比平时睡得晚，并且在正常就寝时间之前减少了腺苷积累的时间。
So don't wake up any later Don't use more caffeine for the reasons that are obvious, because that's only going to crank you and keep you awake the following night or decrease the probability of a good following night of recovery sleep.
所以不要再晚起床 不要因为显而易见的原因摄入更多的咖啡因，因为这只会让你在第二天晚上保持清醒，或者降低第二天晚上恢复良好睡眠的可能性。
And then finally, don't go to bed any earlier.
最后，不要太早睡觉。
Resist and resist and go to bed at your normal time.
抵制再抵制，按正常时间上床睡觉。
What I want to try and do is prevent you from thinking, "Well, I had such a bad night last night, and I normally go to bed at 10:30.
我想要尝试做的是防止你这样想：“好吧，我昨晚度过了一个糟糕的夜晚，我通常在 10:30 上床睡觉。
I'm just going to get into bed at nine o'clock." My body's not ready to sleep at nine o'clock, but I'm worried because I had a bad night of sleep last night, so I get into bed and now I'm tossing and turning for the first hour and a half because it's not my natural sleep window, but I just thought it was a good idea.
我九点钟就上床睡觉了。”我的身体还没准备好在九点睡觉，但我很担心，因为我昨晚睡得不好，所以我上床睡觉，现在我在前一个半小时里翻来覆去，因为这不是我的自然睡眠时间，但我只是觉得这是个好主意。
I think the second tip I would offer in terms of unconventional is have a wind-down routine.
我认为我要提供的第二个非常规建议是制定一个放松程序。
Many of us think of sleep as if it's like a light switch, that we just jump into bed, and when we turn the light out, sleep should arrive in that same way.
我们中的许多人认为睡眠就像一个电灯开关，我们只要跳上床，当我们关掉灯时，睡眠也应该以同样的方式到来。
Sleep is a physiological process.
睡眠是一个生理过程。
It's much more like landing a plane.
这更像是降落飞机。
It takes time to gradually descend down onto the terra firma of what we call good, solid sleep at night.
需要一段时间才能逐渐进入我们所谓的良好、稳定的夜间睡眠状态。
Find out whatever works for you, and it could be light stretching.
找出对你有用的方法，它可能是轻微的伸展运动。
I usually meditate for about 10 or 15 minutes before bed.
我通常在睡前冥想大约10或15分钟。
Some people like reading.
有些人喜欢读书。
Try not to watch television in bed.
尽量不要在床上看电视。
That's something they advise against.
他们不建议这样做。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
It does emit too much light to your eyes.
它确实向您的眼睛发出了太多的光。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Too much light, too activating.
光线太多，太活跃。
You wouldn't race into your garage and come to a screeching halt from 60 miles an hour.
你不会冲进车库，然后以 60 英里的时速急刹车。
You typically downshift your gears, and you slow down as you come into the garage.
您通常会降档，并在进入车库时放慢速度。
There's the same thing with sleep, too.
睡眠也有同样的情况。
The other thing about that idea of shifting focus away from your mind itself, get your mind off itself is a good piece of advice.
关于将注意力从你的思想本身转移开的想法的另一件事是，让你的思想远离本身，这是一个很好的建议。
Catharsis.
导泻。
You can try to write down all of the concerns that you have.
您可以尝试写下您所担心的所有问题。
And do this not right before bed, but usually an hour or two before bed.
并且不要在睡觉前进行此操作，而通常是在睡觉前一两个小时进行。
Some people call it a worry journal.
有些人称之为忧虑日记。
And to me, it's a little bit like closing down all of the emotional tabs on my browser because if I shut the computer down and all of those tabs are still open, I'm going to come back in the morning and the computer's red hot, the fan's going because it didn't go to sleep because it couldn't, because there were too many tabs active and open.
对我来说，这有点像关闭浏览器上所有的情感选项卡，因为如果我关闭计算机而所有这些选项卡仍然打开，那么我早上回来时计算机会变得很热，风扇会转动，因为它没有进入睡眠状态，因为它不能进入睡眠状态，因为有太多的选项卡处于活动状态和打开状态。
I at first thought, this just sounds like hooey.
我一开始觉得这听起来很胡言乱语。
It sounds very Berkeley.
听起来很伯克利。
It's kind of kumbaya, we all hold hands and walk home at the end of the day.
这有点像kumbaya，一天结束时我们都手牵着手走回家。
But then the data started coming out, really good studies from good people, and they found that keeping one of those journals decreased the time it takes you to fall asleep by 50%, five zero.
但随后数据开始出现，来自优秀人士的非常好的研究，他们发现保留其中一本日记可以使你入睡的时间减少 50%（五个零）。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Amazing.
太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's well on par with any pharmaceutical agent.
它与任何药剂都相当。
I think the fourth little tip I would give that's unconventional is remove all clock faces from your bedroom.
我想我要给出的第四个非常规小建议是移除卧室中的所有钟面。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Including your phone.
包括你的手机。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Including your phone, because if you are having a tough night, knowing that it's 3:22 in the morning or it's 4:48 in the morning does not help you in the slightest, and it's only going to make matters worse than better.
包括你的手机，因为如果你度过了一个艰难的夜晚，知道现在是凌晨 3:22 或凌晨 4:48 对你没有任何帮助，而且只会让事情变得更糟而不是更好。
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
Matt, this has been an amazing deep dive on sleep.
马特，这是一次关于睡眠的令人惊叹的深入研究。
It is chock-a-block full of valuable takeaways.
它充满了有价值的外卖。
It's been tremendously fun for me to dissect out this incredible aspect of our lives that we call sleep with a fellow scientist and a fellow public educator.
与一位科学家同事和一位公共教育家同事一起剖析我们生活中这个令人难以置信的方面，我们称之为睡眠，对我来说是非常有趣的。
And we don't just want to hear more from Matt Walker, I speak for many people, we need to.
我们不只是想听到马特·沃克的更多信息，我代表很多人，我们需要这样做。
The work you're doing is both influential, but more importantly, it is important work.
你所做的工作既具有影响力，但更重要的是，它是重要的工作。
It has the impact that's needed, especially in this day and age where science and medicine, public health, and the issues of the world, et cetera, are really converging.
它具有所需的影响，特别是在当今科学和医学、公共卫生以及世界问题等真正融合的时代。
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Matthew Walker:
马修·沃克博士：
...
...
I know I speak on behalf of a tremendous number of people when I just say thank you for doing the work you do and for being you.
我知道，当我对你们所做的工作和所做的事情表示感谢时，我代表了很多人。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
"I don't think I can be your friend," Isabella said.
“我想我不能成为你的朋友，”伊莎贝拉说。
Rebecca's stomach flipped.
丽贝卡的胃翻腾起来。
This is the love story of real Hinge couple Isabella and Rebecca, written and read by me, Tembi Denton-Hurst.
这是真实的铰链夫妇伊莎贝拉和丽贝卡的爱情故事，由我 Tembi Denton-Hurst 撰写和阅读。
Listen to the free audiobook now.
立即收听免费有声读物。