Essentials: The Science of Eating for Health, Fat Loss & Lean Muscle | Dr. Layne Norton
Dr. Layne Norton:
莱恩·诺顿博士：
Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials, where we revisit past episodes for the most potent and actionable science-based tools for mental health, physical health, and performance.
欢迎来到 Huberman Lab Essentials，在这里我们回顾过去的剧集，寻找针对心理健康、身体健康和表现的最有效、最可操作的基于科学的工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Layne Norton.
现在我与莱恩·诺顿博士进行讨论。
Dr. Norton, thank you so much for being here.
诺顿博士，非常感谢您来到这里。
This is a long time coming, and I have to say, as a fellow PhD scientist, I feel a great kinship with you.
这是一个很长的时间，我不得不说，作为一名博士科学家，我对你有一种非常亲近的感觉。
I know you have tremendous experience in fitness and nutrition, a number of areas.
我知道您在健身和营养等多个领域拥有丰富的经验。
I'd like to start with something that's rather basic and yet can be pretty complex, and that's this issue of energy balance and energy utilization.
我想从一些相当基本但又可能相当复杂的问题开始，这就是能量平衡和能量利用的问题。
What happens when we eat food of any kind, and how is that actually converted into energy as a way of framing up the discussion around weight loss, weight maintenance, weight gain, and body composition?
当我们吃任何种类的食物时会发生什么？这些食物实际上是如何转化为能量的，以此来构建有关减肥、体重维持、体重增加和身体成分的讨论？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a great question, and like you said, this is one of those things where people use the term calories in, calories out, and they say, "Well, that's way too simplistic." And I'm like, if you look at what actually makes up calories in, calories out, it's actually very complicated.
这是一个很好的问题，就像你说的，这是人们使用“卡路里摄入”、“卡路里消耗”这个术语的事情之一，他们说，“嗯，这太简单了。”我想，如果你看看实际上是什么构成了摄入的卡路里和消耗的卡路里，你会发现它实际上非常复杂。
So a calorie just refers to a unit of energy, of heat specifically.
因此，卡路里只是指能量单位，特别是热量单位。
Really what you're talking about is the potential chemical energy that is in the bonds of the macronutrients of food.
实际上，您所说的是食物中大量营养素键中的潜在化学能。
Right?
正确的？
And by digesting, assimilating, and metabolizing those nutrients, we are able to create energy.
通过消化、同化和代谢这些营养物质，我们能够产生能量。
The end product of that mostly is ATP, adenosine triphosphate, which is your body's energy currency.
最终产物主要是 ATP（三磷酸腺苷），它是人体的能量货币。
So a lot of metabolism is simply creating ATP.
所以大量的新陈代谢只是产生 ATP。
Protein's a little bit different because protein gets converted to amino acids, which can be used for muscle protein synthesis or protein synthesis in other tissues.
蛋白质有点不同，因为蛋白质会转化为氨基酸，可用于肌肉蛋白质合成或其他组织中的蛋白质合成。
But it also can be converted through gluconeogenesis to glucose, and there also are some ketogenic amino acids as well.
但它也可以通过糖异生转化为葡萄糖，还有一些生酮氨基酸。
Then you have fatty acids, which are able to create energy through what's called beta oxidation, where essentially you're taking these fatty acids and you're lopping them off two carbons at a time to produce acetyl-CoA, which again can go into the Krebs cycle, produce those hydrogen ions that can then power the production of ATP.
然后是脂肪酸，它能够通过所谓的β氧化产生能量，本质上是你获取这些脂肪酸，然后一次将它们去掉两个碳以产生乙酰辅酶A，乙酰辅酶A又可以进入克雷布斯循环，产生那些氢离子，然后为ATP的产生提供动力。
So that's kind of like at the cellular level of how this stuff works.
这有点像在细胞水平上这些东西的工作原理。
But stepping back and taking it back out, like what does that have to do with weight loss or weight gain, right?
但退后一步，把它拿出来，就像这与减肥或体重增加有什么关系，对吧？
When you think about the balance of energy in versus energy out, sounds very simple.
当你考虑能量输入与能量输出的平衡时，听起来很简单。
But let's look at what actually makes up energy in versus energy out.
但让我们看看实际上是什么构成了能量输入和能量输出。
First of all, you've got to realize that the energy in side of the equation is more difficult to track than people think.
首先，你必须意识到方程一侧的能量比人们想象的更难追踪。
So one, food labels, which we like to think as being from upon high, can have up to a 20% error in them.
因此，我们喜欢认为食品标签是从高处来的，但其中的错误可能高达 20%。
Dr. Layne Norton:
莱恩·诺顿博士：
Really?
真的吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
The second aspect is there's what's called your energy, but then there's also metabolizable energy.
第二个方面是所谓的能量，但也有可代谢的能量。
So if you have foodstuff with, say, a lot of insoluble fiber, typically insoluble fiber is not really digestible, and so you could have quite a bit of carbohydrate, but if you can't extract the energy from it, and typically this is because insoluble fiber from plant material, the carbohydrate or even some of the protein is bound up in the plant structure, which makes it inaccessible to digestive enzymes.
因此，如果你吃的食物含有大量不溶性纤维，通常不溶性纤维实际上并不容易消化，因此你可能含有相当多的碳水化合物，但如果你无法从中提取能量，通常这是因为植物材料中的不溶性纤维、碳水化合物甚至一些蛋白质被束缚在植物结构中，这使得消化酶无法接触到它们。
And so this is what adds bulk to your stool and whatnot.
这就是增加粪便体积的原因。
But again, reduces the metabolizable energy in there.
但同样，减少了那里的代谢能。
And there's some evidence that based on people's individual gut microbiome, that some people may actually be better at extracting energy out of fiber compared to other people.
有一些证据表明，根据人们的个体肠道微生物组，有些人实际上可能比其他人更擅长从纤维中提取能量。
So just starting off right there, okay, there's quite a bit of play in the energy in side of things.
所以从这里开始，好吧，事情的能量方面有相当多的发挥。
Now, one of the things people will say is, "Well, see, that's why you shouldn't worry about tracking calories, because if the food labels can be 20% off." And what I'll say is, okay, I understand where you're coming from, but typically if it's off, it's going to be consistently off.
现在，人们会说的一件事是，“好吧，看，这就是为什么你不应该担心跟踪卡路里，因为如果食品标签可以有 20% 的折扣。”我要说的是，好吧，我明白你的想法，但通常情况下，如果它关闭了，它就会一直关闭。
And if you're consistent with how you track it, eventually you'll be able to know kind of what you're taking in.
如果你坚持跟踪它的方式，最终你将能够知道你正在接受什么。
So now let's look at the energy out side of the equation, which is actually way more complicated.
现在让我们看看方程之外的能量，它实际上要复杂得多。
And so your energy out is a few different buckets.
所以你的能量消耗有几个不同的部分。
The first one and the biggest one is your resting metabolic rate, so your RMR.
第一个也是最大的一个是您的静息代谢率，即您的 RMR。
That for most people is anywhere from 50% to 70% of your total daily energy expenditure.
对于大多数人来说，这占每日总能量消耗的 50% 到 70%。
Sedentary people will be on the higher end of that, so it'll be a bigger proportion, whereas people who are more active, it'll be a little bit lower, not because their metabolic rate is lower, but because they're expending a greater percentage of their calories from physical activity.
久坐的人会处于较高的水平，所以比例会更大，而活跃的人会稍微低一点，不是因为他们的新陈代谢率较低，而是因为他们从体力活动中消耗了更大比例的卡路里。
Then you have something called the thermic effect of food, which is a relatively small percentage of your total daily energy expenditure.
然后还有一种叫做食物热效应的东西，它只占你每日总能量消耗的相对较小的比例。
It's about 5% to 10%.
大约是5%到10%。
Very difficult to measure, and usually what researchers do when they're kind of looking at this stuff is they just kind of make an assumption about it.
很难测量，通常研究人员在研究这些东西时所做的只是对其做出假设。
They use a constant.
他们使用一个常数。
And that refers to the amount of energy it takes to extract the energy out of food.
这指的是从食物中提取能量所需的能量。
You can't just eat food and then it just appears in your cells and you start doing stuff.
你不能只吃食物，然后它就出现在你的细胞中，然后你就开始做事情。
It has to be systematically broken down and put into forms that can actually produce energy.
它必须被系统地分解并转化为真正可以产生能量的形式。
A lot of times people will say something like, "Well, not all calories are created equal." That's not true because calories are just a unit of measurement.
很多时候人们会说，“嗯，并不是所有的卡路里都是一样的。”这是不正确的，因为卡路里只是一个测量单位。
That would be like saying not all seconds on a clock are created equal.
这就像说时钟上的秒数并非都是一样的。
Yes, they are.
是的，他们是。
All sources of calories may have differential effects on energy expenditure and appetite.
所有热量来源都可能对能量消耗和食欲产生不同的影响。
So if we look at something like fat, for example, the TEF of fat is about 0% to 3%, meaning if you eat 100 calories from fat, your net will be about 97 to 100.
例如，如果我们观察脂肪之类的东西，脂肪的 TEF 约为 0% 到 3%，这意味着如果您从脂肪中摄入 100 卡路里，您的净热量将约为 97 到 100。
Dr. Layne Norton:
莱恩·诺顿博士：
So the process of breaking down that fat essentially subtracts some of the calories away because you used it in creating energy-
因此，分解脂肪的过程本质上是减去了一些卡路里，因为你用它来产生能量——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Correct
正确
Dr. Layne Norton:
莱恩·诺顿博士：
...
...
by breaking those chemical bonds to create ATP.
通过破坏这些化学键来产生 ATP。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Correct.
正确。
Dr. Layne Norton:
莱恩·诺顿博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Correct.
正确。
Fat is actually the easiest thing to convert into energy.
脂肪实际上是最容易转化为能量的物质。
Then you have carbohydrate, which has a TEF of like 5% to 10%, so you eat 100 calories from carbohydrate, and obviously, the fiber content makes a big difference on this.
然后是碳水化合物，其 TEF 约为 5% 到 10%，因此您从碳水化合物中摄入 100 卡路里热量，显然，纤维含量对此有很大影响。
But if you eat 100 calories, you'll net 90 to 95.
但如果你吃 100 卡路里，你就会净摄入 90 到 95 卡路里。
Protein is about a 20% to 30% TEF.
蛋白质约为 TEF 的 20% 至 30%。
So if you had 100 calories from protein, you're only netting 70 to 80.
因此，如果您从蛋白质中获取 100 卡路里热量，那么您仅获得 70 到 80 卡路里。
Now you're still net.
现在你还是网。
People say, "Well, you can't eat too much protein." Well, people will ask, "Well, can protein be stored as fat?" The carbons from protein, it's unlikely it's going to wind up in adipose tissue, but if you're eating a lot of protein overall as part of a lot of calories, it has to be oxidized, and it can provide a calorie cushion for other things to be stored in fat.
人们说：“嗯，蛋白质不能吃太多。”那么，人们会问，“那么，蛋白质可以作为脂肪储存吗？”蛋白质中的碳不太可能最终进入脂肪组织，但如果您总体上摄入大量蛋白质作为大量卡路里的一部分，那么它必须被氧化，并且它可以为其他物质储存在脂肪中提供卡路里缓冲。
But protein itself does provide a net positive for calories, but less so than carbohydrate or fat, and tends to be more satiating.
但蛋白质本身确实提供了热量的净正值，但不如碳水化合物或脂肪，而且往往更容易产生饱腹感。
So again, when people talk about, are all calories created equal?
那么，当人们谈论时，所有卡路里都是平等的吗？
Yes, but all sources of calories may have differential effects on energy expenditure and appetite.
是的，但所有热量来源都可能对能量消耗和食欲产生不同的影响。
So that's the TEF bucket and the BMR bucket.
这就是 TEF 存储桶和 BMR 存储桶。
Then we go to physical activity, and physical activity is essentially two parts.
然后我们进入身体活动，身体活动本质上是两个部分。
There's exercise, which is kind of your purposeful movements, like you go out for a walk, you do a training session, whatever.
有锻炼，这是一种有目的的运动，比如出去散步、参加训练等等。
Any purposeful activity.
任何有目的的活动。
And then you have what's called NEAT, which is non-exercise activity thermogenesis.
然后就是所谓的 NEAT，即非运动活动产热。
So for example, when I'm talking, if I'm waving around my hands, if I'm tapping my feet, if I'm whatever, that's NEAT.
举例来说，当我说话时，如果我在挥手，如果我在轻拍脚，如果我是什么，那都是整洁的。
Dr. Layne Norton:
莱恩·诺顿博士：
The calorie burn from NEAT is actually pretty significant.
NEAT 消耗的卡路里实际上相当可观。
We're not talking about 100 calories or 200 calories per day.
我们说的不是每天 100 卡路里或 200 卡路里。
We're talking about, in some cases, hundreds to maybe even close to 1,000 calories per day.
在某些情况下，我们每天谈论的是数百甚至接近 1,000 卡路里的热量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And what's very interesting about NEAT is that seems to be the most modifiable of BMR, TEF, and NEAT.
NEAT 非常有趣的是，它似乎是 BMR、TEF 和 NEAT 中最容易修改的。
NEAT seems to be far more modifiable.
NEAT 似乎更具可修改性。
The next thing is a lot of people weigh very sporadically, and I'll tell people, if you're going to make intentional weight loss a goal, and again, this can be different for different people, but typically I tell people, weigh in first thing in the morning right after you go to the bathroom, do it every day, and take the average of that for the week.
接下来的事情是很多人的体重非常零散，我会告诉人们，如果你要把有意减肥作为一个目标，同样，这对于不同的人来说可能是不同的，但通常我会告诉人们，早上上完厕所后第一件事就是称重，每天都称重，然后取一周的平均值。
And then compare that to the next week's average.
然后将其与下周的平均值进行比较。
As somebody who weighs themselves pretty regularly, my weight will fluctuate five, six pounds and not seemingly changing much.
作为一个经常称体重的人，我的体重会波动五、六磅，而且看起来变化不大。
And those short-term changes are fluid.
这些短期变化是不稳定的。
So if you're somebody who just randomly is weighing in and you're eating in a calorie deficit, and you just weigh in one day where you've just, whatever reason, holding some more fluid, then you, "Oh, see, this isn't working." When in reality, your average might be dropping.
因此，如果你是一个随机称重的人，而且你的饮食摄入热量不足，而你只是在某一天称重，无论出于什么原因，你多喝了一些液体，那么你会说，“哦，看，这不起作用。”事实上，你的平均水平可能会下降。
Weight fluctuations are actually identified as a major reason why people get discouraged from weight loss.
体重波动实际上被认为是人们不愿减肥的主要原因。
It kind of stops the buy-in-
这有点阻止买入-
Dr. Layne Norton:
莱恩·诺顿博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
when they have a fluctuation up.
当它们有波动时。
So that's one of the reasons-
这就是原因之一——
Dr. Layne Norton:
莱恩·诺顿博士：
Great point
很棒的一点
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
one of the reasons early on that low carb diets tend to work really well is because people lose a lot of water weight really quickly, and they get that buy-in.
早期低碳水化合物饮食往往效果很好的原因之一是人们很快就减掉了很多水分，而且他们得到了认可。
So, "Oh, this is working." People think about, "I am going to do a diet and I'm going to lose this weight," and they do not give any thought to what happens afterwards.
所以，“哦，这有效。”人们会想，“我要节食，我要减掉这个体重”，但他们不会考虑之后会发生什么。
Think about if you have some kind of chronic disease or a diabetic.
想想您是否患有某种慢性病或糖尿病。
You can't just take insulin once and that's it.
你不能只服用一次胰岛素，仅此而已。
You got to take it continuously, otherwise you're going to have problems.
一定要坚持下去，不然就会出问题。
You can't create a new version of yourself while dragging your old habits and behaviors behind you.
当你把旧的习惯和行为抛在身后时，你无法创造一个新的自己。
So what I'll tell people is, because people say, "Well, I'm doing a carnivore diet," or, "I'm doing this diet or that diet." And I'll say, "That's fine.
所以我要告诉人们的是，因为人们会说，“嗯，我正在实行肉食饮食，”或者，“我正在实行这种饮食或那种饮食。”我会说：“那很好。
Do you see yourself doing that for the rest of your life?" And if the answer is no, you probably need to rethink what your approach is going to be.
你认为你的余生都会这样做吗？”如果答案是否定的，您可能需要重新考虑您的方法。
Dr. Layne Norton:
莱恩·诺顿博士：
Hey, everyone.
嘿，大家。
All right.
好的。
My book is finally ready for release.
我的书终于准备出版了。
"Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body" is coming out in three months.
《协议：人体操作手册》将在三个月内出版。
It's my first book and I've been working on it for many years now, and it's really a reflection of decades of research and experience that came even prior to starting the book.
这是我的第一本书，我已经为此工作了很多年，它确实反映了在开始本书之前数十年的研究和经验。
My goal for this book is that it serves as an easy-to-use manual for dealing with any number of different pain points or performance goals that you might have in terms of mental health, physical health, and performance.
我写这本书的目标是，它可以作为一本易于使用的手册，用于处理您在心理健康、身体健康和绩效方面可能存在的各种不同的痛点或绩效目标。
It covers the science and most effective protocols for sleep, nutrition, exercise, focused learning and neuroplasticity, stress management, and much more.
它涵盖了睡眠、营养、锻炼、专注学习和神经可塑性、压力管理等方面的科学和最有效的方案。
I'm super excited to share it with all of you.
我非常高兴与大家分享。
The launch date is September 15th.
发布日期为 9 月 15 日。
You can learn more about it or pre-order by going to protocolsbook.com.
您可以访问protocolbook.com 了解更多信息或进行预订。
It's also available on amazon.com and I'm super excited that "Protocols" is finally ready for release.
它也可以在 amazon.com 上找到，我非常兴奋“Protocols”终于准备好发布了。
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Carbon.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Carbon。
Carbon is a diet coaching app built by nutrition expert Dr. Layne Norton.
Carbon 是一款由营养专家 Layne Norton 博士开发的饮食指导应用程序。
Now, I've used Carbon for more than three years now, and I have to say, having been interested in fitness and in my nutrition for more than three decades, it's among the most powerful tools for nutrition coaching and effective weight management that I've ever encountered, especially if your goal is like mine, which is to maintain or build muscle while also losing fat.
现在，我已经使用 Carbon 三年多了，我不得不说，三十多年来我一直对健身和营养感兴趣，它是我遇到过的最强大的营养指导和有效体重管理工具之一，特别是如果您的目标和我一样，即保持或增强肌肉，同时减少脂肪。
I've been raving about the Carbon app to friends and to family and to members of my Huberman Lab team over the last few years, and everyone who's joined me in using it has found it to be tremendously useful.
在过去的几年里，我一直对朋友、家人以及我的 Huberman 实验室团队的成员非常喜欢 Carbon 应用程序，每个和我一起使用它的人都发现它非常有用。
Now, there are a lot of apps out there that are focused on fitness and nutrition.
现在，有很多专注于健身和营养的应用程序。
But what makes Carbon different is that it doesn't just hand you a one-size-fits-all plan.
但 Carbon 的不同之处在于，它不仅仅为您提供一刀切的计划。
It actually learns your metabolism over time and it adapts your program based on your results.
它实际上会随着时间的推移了解您的新陈代谢，并根据您的结果调整您的计划。
So if you're looking to take a smarter, more personalized approach to your nutrition, I can't recommend the Carbon app enough.
因此，如果您希望采取更智能、更个性化的营养方法，我强烈推荐 Carbon 应用程序。
To try Carbon, you can go to joincarbon.com/huberman.
要尝试 Carbon，您可以访问 joincarbon.com/huberman。
While Carbon does not typically offer trials or promotions, they've agreed to give a free seven-day trial to all Huberman Podcast listeners.
虽然 Carbon 通常不提供试用或促销，但他们同意向所有 Huberman 播客听众提供为期 7 天的免费试用。
Again, that's joincarbon.com/huberman to get a seven-day free trial.
再次强调，请访问 joincarbon.com/huberman 以获得 7 天免费试用。
Could you briefly talk about how macronutrients, including protein, impact satiety from the standpoint of somebody who, for instance, would like to, quote-unquote, "lose a few pounds?" Probably would be happy to gain a little bit of lean body mass, provided it was in a particular location on their body.
您能否从某些人（例如想要“减掉几磅”）的角度简要谈谈宏量营养素（包括蛋白质）如何影响饱腹感？可能会很高兴获得一点瘦体重，只要它是在他们身体的特定位置。
That seems to be a thing now, directed hypertrophy, if you will.
如果你愿意的话，这似乎是现在的事情，定向肥大。
And how much they should focus on protein as a core component of creating this diet.
以及他们应该在多大程度上关注蛋白质作为创造这种饮食的核心成分。
And are animal sources of protein indeed more bioavailable?
动物来源的蛋白质确实具有更高的生物利用度吗？
That's a tricky word.
这是一个棘手的词。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Layne Norton:
莱恩·诺顿博士：
For sake of muscle building, but also for sake of somebody who just would like to lose body fat.
为了增强肌肉，也为了那些只想减掉体内脂肪的人。
They don't want to lose muscle and they'd like to bring their weight down a few pounds.
他们不想失去肌肉，并且想减轻体重几磅。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Of the macronutrients, protein is definitely the biggest lever that you can pull because even if it doesn't take a ton of protein to get a lot of the muscle building benefits.
在常量营养素中，蛋白质绝对是您可以拉动的最大杠杆，因为即使不需要大量蛋白质即可获得大量肌肉锻炼的好处。
I think the benefits really start to plateau out around 1.6 grams per kilogram of body weight.
我认为每公斤体重 1.6 克左右的好处确实开始稳定下来。
There's some evidence that maybe even up to like 2.4 or 2.8 grams per kilo may give a little bit more benefit.
有一些证据表明，甚至每公斤 2.4 或 2.8 克的摄入量可能会带来更多的好处。
I think it probably looks something like an asymptote in terms of a curve where As you put more into the system, you always get a little bit more, but it just gets to the point where it's so infinitesimally small benefit that it's, for all intensive purposes, no benefit.
我认为它可能看起来像一条曲线的渐近线，当你在系统中投入更多时，你总是会得到更多一点，但它只是达到了如此无限小的好处，以至于对于所有密集的目的来说，它没有任何好处。
There doesn't seem to be really downsides to it, even up to very high levels of protein.
即使蛋白质含量非常高，它似乎也没有真正的缺点。
Jose Antonio did a study that was a year-long randomized control trial.
何塞·安东尼奥做了一项为期一年的随机对照试验。
And again, it's just one year, but they were looking at all sorts of different biomarkers, and basically even up to four grams per kilogram of protein, they couldn't really find any negative health outcomes from it, other than people were just so satiated, they ended up eating less calories.
再说一遍，这只是一年，但他们正在研究各种不同的生物标志物，基本上甚至每公斤蛋白质含量高达四克，他们并没有真正从中发现任何负面的健康结果，除了人们太饱了，他们最终摄入的卡路里更少了。
So protein is a big lever because one, it has a higher thermic effect of food.
所以蛋白质是一个很大的杠杆，因为它具有比食物更高的热效应。
So you're getting a little bit more calorie burn per day, even though it's not a ton, because TEF is a pretty small percentage of your overall energy expenditure, but still a benefit.
因此，您每天燃烧的卡路里会多一点，尽管不是很多，因为 TEF 只占您总能量消耗的一小部分，但仍然是一个好处。
You're getting the effects on lean body mass.
您正在获得对去脂体重的影响。
If you're in a diet, it's going to help preserve lean body mass.
如果您正在节食，这将有助于保持去脂体重。
If you're at maintenance, it's going to help build or preserve lean body mass.
如果您处于维持状态，它将有助于建立或保持瘦体重。
And if you're in a surplus, it's going to help build or preserve lean body mass.
如果您有盈余，它将有助于建立或保持去脂体重。
Dr. Layne Norton:
莱恩·诺顿博士：
If I'm going to eat, let's say, two grams per kilogram of body weight protein, and I'm not eating multiple meals per...
比方说，如果我要吃每公斤体重两克的蛋白质，而且我不会每顿吃多顿饭……
Maybe I'm eating two or three meals per day.
也许我每天吃两顿或三顿饭。
I'm certainly going to be eating more than the 30-gram threshold that was thrown around for a long time that we can only assimilate 30 grams of protein per meal.
我肯定会吃超过 30 克的阈值，这个阈值长期以来一直被认为是我们每餐只能吸收 30 克的蛋白质。
Should I just not worry about that?
我应该不担心这个吗？
Some of it is going to go towards the thermic effect of food.
其中一些将用于食物的热效应。
Some of that might be converted into glucose, of all things, through gluconeogenesis.
其中一些可能会通过糖异生转化为葡萄糖。
So should I worry about this 30-gram cutoff?
那么我应该担心这个 30 克的界限吗？
Because I think balancing the 1.6 gram per kilogram body weight threshold with number of meals, with the need to exercise and work and live my life and sleep, et cetera, pretty soon you run into bottlenecks.
因为我认为平衡每公斤体重 1.6 克的阈值与进餐次数、锻炼、工作、生活和睡眠的需要等等，很快就会遇到瓶颈。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Layne Norton:
莱恩·诺顿博士：
Where you just can't do it all.
你就是无法完成这一切。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Layne Norton:
莱恩·诺顿博士：
Or you're spending so much time trying to focus on it all.
或者你花了很多时间试图专注于这一切。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can't optimize all the things at the same time.
您无法同时优化所有事情。
Dr. Layne Norton:
莱恩·诺顿博士：
You'd lose your mind and your body.
你会失去你的思想和你的身体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Most Americans get about 65% to 70% of their protein at dinner, right?
大多数美国人在晚餐中获取大约 65% 到 70% 的蛋白质，对吧？
Breakfast tends to be pretty minimal protein.
早餐的蛋白质含量往往非常低。
So to answer your question, I do think that timing and frequency matters a little, not so much frequency, but distribution more so.
因此，为了回答你的问题，我确实认为时间和频率有点重要，不是频率那么重要，而是分布更重要。
But it's a much smaller lever than just getting enough total protein in.
但这比仅仅摄入足够的总蛋白质要小得多。
And then as far as like animal versus plant, I used to be in the camp of there's no way somebody can build as much muscle on a plant-based diet.
然后，就动物与植物的比较而言，我曾经站在这样的立场上：靠植物性饮食不可能锻炼出那么多的肌肉。
And now I think I've come back to you can, it just requires a little bit more planning.
现在我想我已经回到了你可以的状态，只是需要多一点计划。
And I don't want to say always, but it's very difficult to do without an isolated source of protein.
我不想总是这么说，但如果没有分离的蛋白质来源，这是很难做到的。
So unless you're going to supplement with an isolated plant source of protein, it's very difficult to get enough without going over on total calories because you can figure that, especially like take somebody who may be calorically restricted, trying to get enough protein from whole intact plant sources.
因此，除非你要补充分离的植物来源的蛋白质，否则很难在不超过总热量的情况下获得足够的蛋白质，因为你可以想象，尤其是对于热量可能受到限制的人来说，试图从完整的植物来源中获取足够的蛋白质。
So you've got a few different things working against you.
因此，有一些不同的因素对你不利。
One, the sources of protein you're consuming also have carbohydrate and/or fat.
第一，您消耗的蛋白质来源还含有碳水化合物和/或脂肪。
Two, it's a less bioavailable form of protein.
第二，它是一种生物利用度较低的蛋白质形式。
And three, it's a lower quality of protein in terms of it has typically less leucine, less branched amino acids, and less essential amino acids.
第三，它的蛋白质质量较低，因为它通常含有较少的亮氨酸、较少的支链氨基酸和较少的必需氨基酸。
Dr. Layne Norton:
莱恩·诺顿博士：
You answered the question that I almost interrupted you to ask, which was does it boil down to the leucine content?
你回答了我差点打断你问的问题，它归结为亮氨酸含量吗？
And it sounds like that is one of the components and that a lot of the vegan and vegetarian sources of excellent protein, that excellent protein vegetarian or vegan source is co-packaged with calories from carbohydrates and/or fat that make it hard to stay under the caloric threshold.
听起来这是其中的一个组成部分，许多素食和素食来源都含有优质蛋白质，优质蛋白质素食或素食来源与来自碳水化合物和/或脂肪的热量共同包装，这使得很难保持在热量阈值以下。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which if you're-
如果你是-
Dr. Layne Norton:
莱恩·诺顿博士：
Whereas a steak is, and obviously people might want to avoid that for ethical reasons.
而牛排却是，显然出于道德原因人们可能想避免吃牛排。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Layne Norton:
莱恩·诺顿博士：
But that's a different matter entirely.
但这完全是另一回事。
But a steak or a piece of chicken or an egg is, well, an egg has a yolk, which there's fat there, but is almost a pure protein fat source.
但是一块牛排、一块鸡肉或一个鸡蛋，嗯，鸡蛋有一个蛋黄，里面有脂肪，但几乎是纯蛋白质脂肪来源。
There's no carbohydrate along for the ride.
旅途中没有碳水化合物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can do it.
你可以做到的。
It takes a little more planning, and you're almost always, if you're a vegan especially, you're going to be better off supplementing with some isolated form of protein or vegan form of protein.
这需要更多的计划，而且你几乎总是，特别是如果你是素食主义者，你最好补充一些分离形式的蛋白质或素食形式的蛋白质。
Now, this is where it gets into people say, "Well, what about the limiting amino acids and those sorts of things?" It's a consideration.
现在，这就是人们说的：“那么，限制氨基酸之类的东西呢？”这是一个考虑。
Some of the better forms of vegan protein in terms of amino acid content are like soy.
就氨基酸含量而言，一些更好的纯素蛋白质形式例如大豆。
Now, I hear everybody screaming online about their testosterone levels.
现在，我听到每个人都在网上尖叫着他们的睾丸激素水平。
In terms of actual outcomes and looking at testosterone, there was a recent meta-analysis looking at soy, and I think if it's your only source of protein, then maybe the dosage is high enough to cause some weird effects.
就实际结果和睾丸激素而言，最近有一项针对大豆的荟萃分析，我认为如果它是您唯一的蛋白质来源，那么剂量可能足够高，足以引起一些奇怪的效果。
But if you're just using it like once or twice a day, doesn't seem to have an effect on testosterone or estrogen.
但如果您每天只使用一两次，似乎对睾酮或雌激素没有影响。
So that can be a decent source of protein because it is a complete protein source.
所以这可能是一个不错的蛋白质来源，因为它是完整的蛋白质来源。
It does have a PDCAAS of 1, which PDCAAS is basically a measure of protein quality based on does it provide enough of all the amino acids so that none are limiting?
它的 PDCAAS 确实为 1，PDCAAS 基本上是蛋白质质量的衡量标准，基于它是否提供了足够的所有氨基酸，因此没有限制？
And so soy is one of the only vegan sources that does that.
因此，大豆是唯一能做到这一点的纯素来源之一。
Interestingly, potato protein isolate actually has a similar essential amino acid content to whey, so isolated potato protein.
有趣的是，马铃薯分离蛋白实际上具有与乳清相似的必需氨基酸含量，因此是分离的马铃薯蛋白。
It's just really hard to find.
真的很难找到。
Another reason using an isolated protein can be helpful is because it's more bioavailable as well when it's been isolated out.
使用分离蛋白质有用的另一个原因是，当它被分离出来时，其生物利用度也更高。
When it's the protein bound up in the actual plant material, it tends to be less bioavailable.
当它是结合在实际植物材料中的蛋白质时，它的生物利用度往往较低。
Now, cooking can help increase the bioavailability because it breaks some of those bonds and whatnot.
现在，烹饪可以帮助提高生物利用度，因为它打破了其中一些键等等。
The other thing to consider with the vegan sources of protein is the leucine content.
纯素食蛋白质来源需要考虑的另一件事是亮氨酸含量。
So one of the studies we did was we looked at wheat, soy, egg, and whey.
因此，我们所做的一项研究是研究小麦、大豆、鸡蛋和乳清。
Isonitrogenous, meaning we equated protein between the groups.
等氮，意味着我们将各组之间的蛋白质等同。
Isocaloric, we equated calories, and we looked at muscle protein synthesis.
等热量，我们将卡路里等同起来，并且我们研究了肌肉蛋白质的合成。
And I think this was the meals were 15% of total energy from protein, so like your food guide pyramid level of protein.
我认为这顿饭的总能量的 15% 来自蛋白质，所以就像你的食物指南中的蛋白质金字塔水平一样。
And we saw that in the wheat and soy group, they did not increase muscle protein synthesis, but the egg and whey group increased muscle protein synthesis.
我们看到，在小麦和大豆组中，它们没有增加肌肉蛋白质的合成，但鸡蛋和乳清组却增加了肌肉蛋白质的合成。
Now, what's really interesting is we went back, and we took wheat and added free leucine to it to match the leucine content of whey, and the protein synthetic response was identical.
现在，真正有趣的是我们回去，我们用小麦添加游离亮氨酸以匹配乳清的亮氨酸含量，并且蛋白质合成反应是相同的。
Dr. Layne Norton:
莱恩·诺顿博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So again, I don't like to simplify things too much, but leucine appears to really be driving this ship.
再说一遍，我不喜欢过于简化事情，但亮氨酸似乎确实在推动这艘船。
A few different options for the vegan folks out there.
为素食主义者提供了一些不同的选择。
You can use an isolated source of protein.
您可以使用分离的蛋白质来源。
And again, there's going to be good options coming because this plant-based whey is going to be a great option for folks.
再说一次，将会有很好的选择，因为这种植物性乳清对人们来说将是一个不错的选择。
You can add free leucine to it To whatever your source of protein is
无论您的蛋白质来源是什么，您都可以向其中添加游离亮氨酸
Dr. Layne Norton:
莱恩·诺顿博士：
Just buy supplemented leucine powder.
只需购买补充亮氨酸粉即可。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just buy leucine.
买亮氨酸就行了。
Now, it tastes horrible.
现在看来，味道太可怕了。
It's completely non-polar, does not dissolve in anything, and it is gross.
它是完全非极性的，不溶于任何东西，而且很粗糙。
Dr. Layne Norton:
莱恩·诺顿博士：
Can it be put into capsules?
可以装入胶囊吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It can be put into capsules, yeah.
可以装进胶囊里啊
So you could take a capsule.
所以你可以服用胶囊。
For example, if you're eating your normal meal, you could just take a capsule of one gram of leucine.
例如，如果您正常进餐，则只需服用一克亮氨酸胶囊即可。
It's probably going to bump you up enough that you're going to be good to go.
它可能会给你带来足够的动力，让你可以继续前进。
There's options like blends, especially with corn.
有多种选择，例如混合物，尤其是玉米混合物。
Corn is actually very high in leucine as a percentage of its protein.
实际上，玉米的亮氨酸含量在其蛋白质中所占的比例非常高。
Now, you got to remember, you go eat corn on the cob and you're getting two grams of total protein, so it's not that much leucine.
现在，你必须记住，你吃玉米棒子，你会得到两克总蛋白质，所以它并没有那么多亮氨酸。
But if you isolate out the protein, put it into a powder, well, now, when you're getting 80, 90% of the weight is now protein, corn is actually about 12% leucine in terms of the protein.
但如果你分离出蛋白质，把它变成粉末，那么，现在，当你得到 80%、90% 的重量是蛋白质时，玉米实际上含有大约 12% 的亮氨酸。
So, a great source of leucine.
因此，亮氨酸的重要来源。
It is almost frank deficient in some other amino acids, but you can blend it with a few other sources of protein, like you could blend it with a soy, a pea, and you can create these complementary blends that would actually have quite a bit of leucine, but also some of the other essential amino acids.
它几乎缺乏其他一些氨基酸，但你可以将它与其他一些蛋白质来源混合，就像你可以将它与大豆、豌豆混合一样，你可以创建这些互补的混合物，它们实际上含有相当多的亮氨酸，但也含有一些其他必需氨基酸。
So there are options out there for plant-based folks.
因此，对于以植物为基础的人来说，有很多选择。
And we have seen people who are plant-based build impressive amounts of muscle.
我们已经看到以植物为基础的人锻炼出了令人印象深刻的肌肉。
There's quite a few bodybuilders that are plant-based.
有相当多的健美运动员以植物为基础。
Dr. Layne Norton:
莱恩·诺顿博士：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Function.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 Function。
Function provides over 160 advanced lab tests to give you a clear snapshot of your bodily health.
功能提供超过 160 项高级实验室测试，让您清晰了解自己的身体健康状况。
This snapshot gives you insights into your heart health, your hormone health, autoimmune function, nutrient levels, and much more.
通过此快照，您可以深入了解心脏健康状况、激素健康状况、自身免疫功能、营养水平等。
They've also recently added access to advanced MRI and CT scans.
他们最近还增加了先进的 MRI 和 CT 扫描的访问权限。
Function not only provides testing of over 160 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, it also analyzes these results and provides recommendations for improving your health from top doctors.
Function 不仅提供对您身心健康至关重要的 160 多种生物标记物的测试，还分析这些结果并提供顶级医生改善您健康的建议。
For example, in a recent test with Function, I learned that some of my blood lipids were slightly out of range.
例如，在最近的一次 Function 测试中，我发现我的一些血脂稍微超出了范围。
As a result, I decided to start supplementing with nattokinase, which can naturally help reduce LDL cholesterol, and it did.
因此，我决定开始补充纳豆激酶，它自然可以帮助降低低密度脂蛋白胆固醇，而且确实如此。
In a follow-up test, I could confirm that this strategy worked.
在后续测试中，我可以确认这个策略是有效的。
My blood lipids are now back exactly where I want them.
我的血脂现在完全回到了我想要的水平。
Comprehensive lab testing of the sort that Function offers is just so important for health.
Function 提供的全面实验室测试对于健康非常重要。
How else are you going to know what's going on under the hood?
否则你怎么知道幕后发生了什么？
And while I've been doing blood work for years, it used to be time-consuming, complicated, and expensive.
虽然我从事血液检查已有多年，但它过去非常耗时、复杂且昂贵。
In fact, I used to spend thousands of dollars per year trying to get this kind of data, and the data, frankly, were not all that good.
事实上，我曾经每年花费数千美元试图获得此类数据，但坦率地说，这些数据并不那么好。
But now with Function, it's extremely easy and affordable.
但现在有了 Function，它变得非常简单且经济实惠。
A Function membership is only a dollar a day, $365 a year.
Function 会员每天仅需 1 美元，每年 365 美元。
And if you think about the information it provides and the health challenges it helps you avoid and the proactive things that it can do for you to enhance your health, I truly look at it as a savings.
如果您考虑一下它提供的信息、它可以帮助您避免的健康挑战以及它可以为您增强健康所做的积极主动的事情，我确实将其视为一种节省。
To learn more, visit functionhealth.com/huberman and use the code Huberman for a $50 credit towards your membership.
要了解更多信息，请访问 functionhealth.com/huberman 并使用代码 Huberman 获得 50 美元的会员积分。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman.
同样，这是 functionhealth.com/huberman。
Can we come up with a relatively short summary of the following?
我们能否对以下内容进行相对简短的总结？
Tell me if this is correct or not, that most of us should be focused on ingesting non-processed and minimally processed foods.
告诉我这是否正确，我们大多数人应该专注于摄入未加工和最低限度加工的食品。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I would 100% agree with what you said, that trying to focus on minimally processed foods is very important.
我百分百同意你所说的，即努力关注最低限度加工食品非常重要。
The one caveat I would say is I think it's important to understand why.
我要说的一个警告是，我认为理解原因很重要。
Processed food just gets people to spontaneously eat more.
加工食品只会让人们自发地吃得更多。
Kevin Hall showed this in his study.
凯文·霍尔在他的研究中展示了这一点。
He designed some of the most elegant studies in nutrition.
他设计了一些最优雅的营养学研究。
They basically took people from a minimally processed food diet and then gave them access to ultra-processed foods.
他们基本上让人们放弃最低限度加工食品的饮食，然后让他们接触到超加工食品。
Very few instructions, just eat till you feel satisfied, and they spontaneously increased their calorie intake by 500 calories a day.
指令很少，吃到满意为止，他们就自发地每天增加了500卡路里的热量摄入。
That's massive.
那是巨大的。
Now that being said, it depends on the individual and their goals.
话虽这么说，这取决于个人和他们的目标。
If your goal is to, for example, build muscle or maintain a high body weight for a sport, for example, like an NFL offensive lineman or something of that nature, your protein, your fiber, your micronutrients, these are your responsibilities.
如果你的目标是，例如，为某项运动增强肌肉或保持高体重，例如，像 NFL 进攻线卫或类似性质的东西，你的蛋白质、纤维、微量营养素，这些都是你的责任。
But those become much easier to hit when you have higher calories.
但当你的卡路里含量较高时，这些就会变得更容易实现。
If you're eating 4,000 calories a day for whatever goal you have, you're probably going to have some left over, and good luck eating 4,000 calories from minimally processed foods.
无论您的目标是什么，如果您每天摄入 4,000 卡路里的热量，那么您可能会剩下一些，祝您好运，从最低限度加工的食品中摄入 4,000 卡路里的热量。
Quite frankly, you'll be miserable because you're going to have such gut fill that you're going to feel like you can't even move.
坦率地说，你会很痛苦，因为你的肠子会被填满，感觉自己甚至无法动弹。
And so that's why I'm so pedantic and a stickler about saying, okay, yes, it's a good idea to eat minimally processed food and try to avoid processed foods.
这就是为什么我如此迂腐和坚持说，好吧，是的，吃最低限度加工的食品并尽量避免加工食品是个好主意。
But not because processed foods are bad per se, but what the outcome tends to be from a lot of processed food consumption, which is over-consuming calories, and then therefore energy toxicity negatively contributing to your health.
但这并不是因为加工食品本身不好，而是因为大量食用加工食品往往会导致过度消耗卡路里，从而产生能量毒性，从而对您的健康产生负面影响。
Dr. Layne Norton:
莱恩·诺顿博士：
This, I think, is a perfect segue for something that first brought us together.
我认为，对于最初让我们走到一起的事情来说，这是一个完美的延续。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know what's coming.
我知道接下来会发生什么。
Dr. Layne Norton:
莱恩·诺顿博士：
Which was this thing about artificial sweeteners.
这就是关于人工甜味剂的事情。
Artificial sweeteners are many things.
人造甜味剂有很多种。
So I'd like to talk about their effects on blood sugar in the acute sense, and then the gut microbiome data I think are interesting enough to discuss.
所以我想谈谈它们对血糖的急性影响，然后我认为肠道微生物组数据很有趣，值得讨论。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Layne Norton:
莱恩·诺顿博士：
I have changed my view on artificial sweeteners based on what you've taught me.
根据你教给我的内容，我改变了对人造甜味剂的看法。
So this is a case where I've completely changed my view, which is that I don't have any problem with them whatsoever based on the current data.
所以在这个案例中我完全改变了我的看法，那就是根据当前的数据，我对它们没有任何问题。
Which is not to say that I'm gulping down cupfuls of sucralose.
这并不是说我正在吞下一杯三氯蔗糖。
But I feel okay ingesting some stevia and some aspartame, and I'm not too worried about it.
但摄入一些甜叶菊和一些阿斯巴甜我感觉还不错，而且我不太担心。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We have to think about, again, the hierarchy of importance, right?
我们必须再次考虑重要性的层次结构，对吗？
And what are you replacing with?
你用什么来代替？
There is no situation where it is not a net positive to take somebody who drinks sugar-sweetened beverages and have them drink an artificially sweetened beverage.
在任何情况下，让喝含糖饮料的人喝人工加糖饮料都不会产生净积极影响。
In the meta-analysis, there was actually a recent network meta-analysis looking at markers of adiposity, HbA1c, a bunch of different health markers, and when you substitute, we'll call it non-nutritive sweeteners, since stevia is not artificial.
在荟萃分析中，实际上最近有一个网络荟萃分析着眼于肥胖标志物、糖化血红蛋白（HbA1c）和一系列不同的健康标志物，当你替代时，我们将其称为非营养性甜味剂，因为甜叶菊不是人造的。
But so when you substitute NNS for the sugar-sweetened beverages, you see improvements in a lot of different things.
但是，当您用 NNS 替代含糖饮料时，您会看到许多不同方面的改进。
And whenever I post about non-nutritive sweeteners, in the comments, there's always one or two or three people who say All I did was cut out soda, and I drank diet soda instead, and I lost 50 pounds, or I lost 75 pounds.
每当我发布有关非营养性甜味剂的帖子时，评论中总是有一两三个人说我所做的就是戒掉汽水，而是喝无糖汽水，然后我减掉了 50 磅，或者减掉了 75 磅。
I even have one person, I lost 100 pounds.
我什至有一个人，我瘦了100磅。
That's the only thing I did.
这是我唯一做的事。
Dr. Layne Norton:
莱恩·诺顿博士：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a pretty massive lever to pull.
这是一个相当大的杠杆。
If you consider somebody who might be having five or six Cokes a day, we're talking a serious amount of calories.
如果您认为某人可能每天喝五六杯可乐，那么我们谈论的是大量的卡路里。
Is that obese person who lost 100 pounds by doing that, do I really care about maybe a small alteration to their gut microbiome?
那个通过这样做减掉 100 磅的肥胖者，我真的关心他们肠道微生物群的微小改变吗？
No, because their gut microbiome is actually much more healthy now by them having lost all that excess adipose tissue.
不，因为他们的肠道微生物组现在实际上更加健康，因为他们已经失去了所有多余的脂肪组织。
So I think it's one of those things that, again, it depends on the situation, right?
所以我认为这也是取决于具体情况的事情之一，对吧？
If somebody's obese and they said, "Well, this is going to help me eliminate sugar-sweetened beverage." Why would you want to take that tool away from them?
如果有人肥胖，他们会说：“好吧，这将帮助我戒掉含糖饮料。”你为什么要从他们手中夺走这个工具？
That's a great lever to pull.
这是一个很好的杠杆。
If somebody can lose literally 100 pounds from just one change in lifestyle, that's not even really that inconvenient of a change, that is powerful.
如果一个人仅仅通过生活方式的一次改变就可以减掉 100 磅，这甚至不是一个真正不方便的改变，而是一个强大的改变。
But again, is it the most healthy thing they could do?
但话又说回来，这是他们能做的最健康的事情吗？
And I think that's what tends to get asked.
我认为这就是人们常问的问题。
We don't know.
我们不知道。
Is it healthier than water?
它比水更健康吗？
Probably not.
可能不会。
Maybe as healthy as it, who knows?
也许和它一样健康，谁知道呢？
But I really make all those caveats because you don't want to have people who could use this as a tool think, "Well, no, I can't do this because it's actually bad for me."
但我确实提出了所有这些警告，因为你不想让可以将此作为工具的人认为，“好吧，不，我不能这样做，因为这实际上对我不利。”
Dr. Layne Norton:
莱恩·诺顿博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If it helps you lose 50 pounds or 75 pounds or whatever it is, trust me, it's not bad for you.
如果它可以帮助您减掉 50 磅或 75 磅或其他体重，请相信我，这对您来说还不错。
Dr. Layne Norton:
莱恩·诺顿博士：
Seed oils.
种子油。
There are a number of folks out there who are arguing that seed oils are the source of the obesity epidemic-
有很多人认为种子油是肥胖流行的根源——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Everything
一切
Dr. Layne Norton:
莱恩·诺顿博士：
...
...
everything.
一切。
And then there are those that would argue just the opposite, that meat is the source of all problems, et cetera.
还有一些人则持相反的观点，认为肉类是所有问题的根源，等等。
And I think we've appropriately framed things that it's never that black and white.
我认为我们已经适当地构建了事物，它从来不是那么黑白分明。
It's simply not.
根本不是。
Are there any data on seed oils?
有关于种子油的数据吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The first thing I'll say is seed oils have negatively contributed to our overall health because people in the last 20, 30 years, what they have tended to add into their diet that has increased the overall calorie load is oil, mostly from seed oils.
我要说的第一件事是，种子油对我们的整体健康产生了负面影响，因为在过去的 20、30 年里，人们倾向于在饮食中添加油，从而增加总体热量负荷，而油大部分来自种子油。
But when we look at one-to-one replacement with other fats.
但当我们考虑用其他脂肪进行一对一替代时。
And so if you look at the epidemiology, you can find some epidemiology showing people who consume more seed oil have more negative health outcomes.
因此，如果你研究一下流行病学，你会发现一些流行病学表明，食用更多种子油的人对健康的负面影响更大。
Problem is, again, tied up with a multitude of other behaviors.
问题再次与许多其他行为联系在一起。
And then you can find mechanisms, and the idea is, well, they're polyunsaturated, which means in the fatty acid chain, there's multiple double bonds, which those double bonds can be oxidized when they're exposed to heat and some other things.
然后你可以找到机制，这个想法是，嗯，它们是多不饱和的，这意味着在脂肪酸链中，有多个双键，这些双键在暴露于热和其他东西时可以被氧化。
And so the idea is when you cook with these things and they may get oxidized, and that's going to cause inflammation in your body.
所以当你用这些东西做饭时，它们可能会被氧化，这会导致你的身体发炎。
That's a plausible mechanism.
这是一个看似合理的机制。
So as always, I defer to the human randomized control trials.
因此，一如既往，我尊重人体随机对照试验。
What you tend to find when you substitute saturated fats for polyunsaturated fats, inflammation is basically neutral.
当您用饱和脂肪代替多不饱和脂肪时，您往往会发现，炎症基本上是中性的。
There's some studies that show a positive effect of doing polyunsaturated fats, but it probably depends on the individual polyunsaturated fat.
有一些研究表明多不饱和脂肪具有积极作用，但这可能取决于个体多不饱和脂肪。
And that's the other thing, is difficult because you're categorizing everything in this one bucket, and there are some differences between individual fatty acids.
这是另一件事，很困难，因为你要对这个桶中的所有东西进行分类，并且各个脂肪酸之间存在一些差异。
Even with saturated fat, for example, stearic acid doesn't tend to raise LDL cholesterol, whereas saturated fat as a whole tends to raise LDL cholesterol, but there are some saturated fats that don't.
例如，即使是饱和脂肪，硬脂酸也不会提高低密度脂蛋白胆固醇，而饱和脂肪作为一个整体往往会提高低密度脂蛋白胆固醇，但有些饱和脂肪却不会。
So again, it's like we're putting things in buckets, and it's a little more nuanced than that.
再说一次，这就像我们把东西放进桶里，而且比这更微妙一些。
Then if you look at the effects of polyunsaturated fats on markers of cardiovascular disease, again, tends to either be a neutral or positive effect when you substitute saturated fat for polyunsaturated fat.
然后，如果您观察多不饱和脂肪对心血管疾病标志物的影响，那么当您用饱和脂肪代替多不饱和脂肪时，往往会产生中性或积极的影响。
Now, if you want to get into monounsaturated versus polyunsaturated, there's quite a bit of disagreement between the studies.
现在，如果你想了解单不饱和与多不饱和，这些研究之间存在相当大的分歧。
What I would say, based on the human randomized control trials, is that you're probably better off consuming monounsaturated and polyunsaturated in place of saturated fat.
我想说的是，根据人体随机对照试验，您可能最好食用单不饱和脂肪和多不饱和脂肪来代替饱和脂肪。
But again, if the idea is, well, that means polyunsaturated are good for me, so I'm just going to dump a bunch of oil on everything, and now you're upping your calories.
但同样，如果这个想法是，那么，这意味着多不饱和对我有好处，所以我只是要在所有东西上倒一些油，现在你正在增加你的卡路里。
Well, that's a negative now.
好吧，现在这是负面的。
Because you have to deal with the bigger problem of overall energy toxicity.
因为你必须处理更大的整体能量毒性问题。
So I'm not somebody who likes to demonize individual nutrients.
所以我不是喜欢妖魔化个别营养素的人。
I just haven't seen really compelling evidence that seed oils are the root cause of the problems that are being suggested.
我只是还没有看到真正令人信服的证据表明种子油是所提出问题的根本原因。
And I think this is a good example of whenever there's something that pops up in the fitness industry, there's always the opposite thing that pops up, and it's like the reactionary, extreme reaction to whatever this thing was over here.
我认为这是一个很好的例子，每当健身行业出现某种情况时，总会出现相反的情况，就像对这里发生的任何事情的反动、极端反应一样。
And I think that's what we're seeing with some of the seed oil stuff.
我认为这就是我们在一些种子油中看到的情况。
It's mostly people who are trying to expose the virtues of saturated fat.
大多数人都在试图揭露饱和脂肪的优点。
I think it's fine to consume some saturated fat, but I think limiting it to 7 to 10% of your daily calorie intake is probably wise.
我认为摄入一些饱和脂肪是可以的，但我认为将其限制在每日卡路里摄入量的 7% 到 10% 可能是明智的。
Again, based on the consensus of the evidence I've seen.
再次，基于我所看到的证据的共识。
And so once again, we're struggling with this.
因此，我们再次陷入困境。
Okay, we've got this epidemiology and these mechanisms that sound good, but then what actually happens when we do some human randomized control trials, and so far, I just haven't seen the evidence to suggest that seed oils are independently bad for you, independent of the calories they contain.
好吧，我们已经掌握了流行病学和这些听起来不错的机制，但是当我们进行一些人体随机对照试验时实际会发生什么，到目前为止，我还没有看到证据表明种子油对你独立有害，与它们所含的卡路里无关。
I think we all have this idea that there's this one iconic diet out there that is going to be the best diet for building muscle and burning fat and preventing cancer and heart disease.
我想我们都有这样的想法，即有一种标志性饮食将成为增强肌肉、燃烧脂肪以及预防癌症和心脏病的最佳饮食。
And the reality is there's overall healthy dietary patterns that we see that are good for those things.
事实上，我们发现整体健康的饮食模式对这些事情都有好处。
But when we get down into the weeds, there's probably some push and pull here as well.
但当我们深入到杂草中时，这里可能也会出现一些推拉。
Dr. Layne Norton:
莱恩·诺顿博士：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。
AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens.
AG1 是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮料，还包含益生元和适应原。
I discovered AG1 way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since.
我早在 2012 年就发现了 AG1，那时我还没有播客，从那时起我就每天都在服用它。
The reason I started taking AG1, and the reason I still take it every day, is because AG1 is, to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market.
我开始服用 AG1 的原因，以及我仍然每天服用的原因，是因为据我所知，AG1 是市场上质量最高、最全面的基础营养补充剂。
AG1 is designed to support things like gut health, immune health, and overall energy, and it does so by helping to fill any gaps that you might have in your daily nutrition.
AG1 旨在支持肠道健康、免疫健康和整体能量等方面，它通过帮助填补您日常营养中可能存在的任何缺口来实现这一目标。
I get asked pretty much all the time, "If I could only take one supplement, what should that supplement be?" And my answer is always AG1.
我经常被问到，“如果我只能服用一种补充剂，那么该补充剂应该是什么？”我的答案始终是AG1。
It has just been so helpful for supporting all aspects of physical health, mental health, and performance.
它对于支持身体健康、心理健康和表现的各个方面都非常有帮助。
If you would like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 以获得特别优惠。
For a limited time, AG1 is giving away a free bottle of their new omega-3 coenzyme Q10 product.
AG1 限时免费赠送一瓶新的 omega-3 辅酶 Q10 产品。
Omega-3 and coenzyme Q10 are known to support cardiovascular health, cellular health, and energy generally, brain health, and much more.
众所周知，Omega-3 和辅酶 Q10 可支持心血管健康、细胞健康、能量、大脑健康等。
I personally take them both every day.
我个人每天都会服用它们。
Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a free bottle of the new omega-3 coenzyme Q10 with your first AG1 subscription.
同样，请访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman，首次订阅 AG1 即可免费获得一瓶新型 omega-3 辅酶 Q10。
I'd like to ask you about supplements for a moment.
我想问一下有关补充剂的问题。
One that I'm very familiar with, which is creatine monohydrate, not just for muscle building, but maybe any other purposes for it.
我非常熟悉的一种是一水肌酸，它不仅用于肌肉锻炼，还可能有其他用途。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It is the most tested, safe, and effective sports supplement we have.
它是我们拥有的经过最严格测试、安全且有效的运动补充剂。
There are thousands of studies on creatine monohydrate now.
现在有数千项关于一水肌酸的研究。
I would say very clearly, too, if you're using any other form of creatine, I think you're wasting your money.
我还要非常明确地说，如果您使用任何其他形式的肌酸，我认为您是在浪费钱。
Creatine hydrochloride has some hype around it.
盐酸肌酸有一些炒作。
Apparently, it's a little more soluble.
显然，它更容易溶解一些。
The claim is that you need less, but there's only a couple of studies on it, and it's more expensive.
声称你需要的更少，但只有几项研究，而且它更昂贵。
So I tell people, just take creatine monohydrate.
所以我告诉人们，只服用一水肌酸。
It is tried and true.
这是经过验证的。
It's been shown to saturate the muscle cells 100% with phosphocreatine, and that's what you want.
它已被证明可以使肌肉细胞 100% 充满磷酸肌酸，而这正是您想要的。
So creatine works through a few different methodologies.
因此，肌酸通过几种不同的方法发挥作用。
One, through increasing phosphocreatine content, which helps improve exercise performance, and appears to improve recovery.
一，通过增加磷酸肌酸含量，这有助于提高运动表现，并且似乎可以改善恢复。
And it increases lean mass, a lot of which is through bringing water into the muscle cells.
它会增加瘦体重，其中很大一部分是通过将水带入肌肉细胞来实现的。
Muscle cells are mostly water, so when people say, "Well, it's just water," that's what muscle cells mostly are.
肌肉细胞主要是水，所以当人们说，“好吧，这只是水”，这就是肌肉细胞的主要成分。
And it also increases strength and some other metrics.
它还可以增加力量和其他一些指标。
Now, it also has been shown in studies that people tend to get a decrease in body fat percentage.
现在，研究还表明，人们的体脂百分比往往会降低。
Now, that's probably because they're getting an increase in lean mass, and so the relative is a decrease in body fat percentage.
现在，这可能是因为他们的去脂体重增加了，所以相对的就是体脂百分比下降了。
But there are a few studies that show a decrease in fat mass as well.
但有一些研究表明脂肪量也有所减少。
I don't think that creatine is a fat burner.
我不认为肌酸是脂肪燃烧剂。
I think that people are able to train harder, build more lean tissue, and so that's probably having an effect on fat mass.
我认为人们能够更加努力地训练，建立更多的瘦肉组织，因此这可能会对脂肪量产生影响。
Then they've actually shown more recently some cognitive benefits to creatine, which I find really interesting as well.
然后他们最近实际上显示了肌酸的一些认知益处，我觉得这也很有趣。
But the only knock on creatine that anybody's been able to come up with, because they've debunked the kidney stuff, they've debunked the liver stuff, there's no evidence that it harms healthy kidney or liver, is hair loss.
但是，任何人都能够提出的唯一对肌酸的打击，因为他们已经揭穿了肾脏的东西，他们已经揭穿了肝脏的东西，没有证据表明它会损害健康的肾脏或肝脏，就是脱发。
So what about hair loss?
那么脱发怎么办呢？
Because there was one study in 2009 that showed that creatine increased DHT.
因为2009年有一项研究表明肌酸会增加DHT。
But they didn't really show an effect on any other sex hormone, so it's kind of strange.
但它们并没有真正表现出对任何其他性激素的影响，所以这有点奇怪。
You would think if there was an increase in DHT, there would be something else that changes as well.
你可能会认为，如果 DHT 增加，其他东西也会发生变化。
And it's only one study, and again, didn't directly measure hair loss, measured DHT, which we know is involved in the loss of the follicle.
这只是一项研究，而且，并没有直接测量脱发，而是测量了 DHT，我们知道 DHT 与毛囊的丢失有关。
So what I would say is that I am not convinced.
所以我想说的是我不相信。
It's only one study, never been replicated to my knowledge, and it was looking at a mechanism rather than an outcome.
这只是一项研究，据我所知从未被复制过，而且它着眼于一种机制而不是结果。
Dr. Layne Norton:
莱恩·诺顿博士：
Do you emphasize the classic loading of creatine, taking it a bunch of times per day and then backing off, or just taking it consistently at the, I think five grams per day is kind of the typical dose that people take.
您是否强调肌酸的经典负荷，每天服用多次然后减少，或者只是持续服用，我认为每天五克是人们服用的典型剂量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, again, no solutions, only trade-offs.
所以，再次强调，没有解决方案，只有权衡。
You can load it and you will saturate your phosphocreatine stores faster, like usually within a week.
您可以加载它，您的磷酸肌酸储备会更快地饱和，通常在一周内。
If you just take five grams per day, it'll take two, three, four weeks.
如果每天只服用五克，则需要两、三、四个星期。
But you will get to the same place, and you're probably going to have a much lower risk of GI issues.
但你会到达同一个地方，而且你出现胃肠道问题的风险可能会低得多。
Creatine can be a gut irritant.
肌酸可能会刺激肠道。
If it is for some folks, I would recommend splitting it into multiple doses, so maybe multiple one or two-gram doses per day, and definitely don't load it if you're somebody who has GI issues from it.
如果是针对某些人，我建议将其分成多次剂量，因此可能每天多次服用一克或两克剂量，如果您是患有胃肠道问题的人，绝对不要服用它。
The more into the weeds people tend to get, and again, this is just my own anecdote and observation, the more in the weeds they tend to get, the less hard I see them train.
人们越容易接触杂草，再说一次，这只是我自己的轶事和观察，他们越容易接触杂草，我看到他们训练就越不努力。
And so one of the things I really like that Mike Israetel said, who's got a PhD and is a bodybuilder himself, he said, "You can't out science hard training." If you're looking to build muscle and you're looking to improve your body composition, the main thing is just doing the work over time.
因此，我非常喜欢迈克·伊斯雷特尔（Mike Israetel）所说的一件事，他拥有博士学位并且自己也是一名健美运动员，他说，“你无法摆脱科学的艰苦训练。”如果您想增强肌肉并改善身体成分，那么最重要的是随着时间的推移进行锻炼。
And I think a lot of that is getting the confidence of doing something hard that there's a payoff at the end.
我认为这很大程度上是因为有信心去做一些努力的事情，最终会有回报。
I get asked a lot in my Q&As, "How do I get more confident?
在我的问答中，我经常被问到：“我如何变得更加自信？
How do I become more confident?" And I'll tell people, you have to do.
我怎样才能变得更加自信？”我会告诉人们，你必须这样做。
There's no hack.
没有黑客。
You can't read about it.
你无法阅读它。
You got to get in the arena.
你必须进入竞技场。
And I don't mean compete in sports necessarily, but doing a PhD or doing just something hard where you're putting yourself out there and you're saying, "This is my goal and I'm going to go for it." You just learn so much by doing that about yourself.
我的意思并不是一定要参加体育比赛，而是攻读博士学位或做一些艰苦的事情，让自己投入其中，然后说：“这是我的目标，我会为之奋斗。”通过对自己做这些事，你会学到很多东西。
Dr. Layne Norton:
莱恩·诺顿博士：
I must say, this conversation for me has been tremendously rewarding.
我必须说，这次谈话对我来说是非常有益的。
The amount of knowledge that you contain inside you is astonishing.
你内心所蕴含的知识量是惊人的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's a lot of stuff rattling around up there .
上面有很多东西在嘎嘎作响。
Dr. Layne Norton:
莱恩·诺顿博士：
Well, and we all benefit because your ability to pull from the mechanistic side, again, I think not limited to, but related to your background in biochemistry, all the way through to the impact in humans, animal studies, being able to understand where those sit relative to one another.
好吧，我们都受益，因为你从机械方面出发的能力，我认为不限于，但与你在生物化学方面的背景有关，一直到对人类、动物研究的影响，能够理解它们之间的相对位置。
And then you're obviously a practitioner.
那么你显然是一个实践者。
You practice what you preach, and what you talk about pertains to men, to women, younger people, older people, people who are vegan, keto, carnivore.
你言出必行，你所谈论的内容适用于男人、女人、年轻人、老年人、素食主义者、酮类动物、肉食动物。
You really are able to net a tremendous number of ideas while staying really nuanced and data-driven.
你确实能够收集大量的想法，同时保持真正的细致入微和数据驱动。
And so I just want to say for myself and on behalf of the listeners, really appreciate you coming in here today and sharing with us your knowledge.
因此，我只想代表我自己和听众说，非常感谢您今天来到这里并与我们分享您的知识。
So thank you so much for your time.
非常感谢您抽出宝贵的时间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, thank you.
哦，谢谢。
I appreciate the opportunity.
我很感激这个机会。
I really enjoyed it.
我真的很喜欢它。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
"I want to date with rules," Carty says.
“我想按规则约会，”卡蒂说。
"Rules?" Roka asks.
“规则？”罗卡问道。
This is the love story of real Hinge couple, Carty and Roka.
这是真实的铰链夫妇卡蒂和罗卡的爱情故事。
Written and read by me, Nicola Dinan.
由我 Nicola Dinan 撰写和阅读。
Listen to the free audiobook now.
立即收听免费有声读物。