Essentials: The Neuroscience of Speech, Language & Music | Dr. Erich Jarvis
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials, where we revisit past episodes for the most potent and actionable science-based tools for mental health, physical health, and performance.
欢迎来到 Huberman Lab Essentials，在这里我们回顾过去的剧集，寻找针对心理健康、身体健康和表现的最有效、最可操作的基于科学的工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Erich Jarvis.
现在我与埃里希·贾维斯博士进行了讨论。
Erich, so great to have you here.
埃里希，很高兴你能来到这里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Very interested in learning from you about speech and language.
非常有兴趣向您学习言语和语言。
In terms of the study of speech and language and thinking about how the brain organizes speech and language, what are the similarities?
在言语和语言的研究以及思考大脑如何组织言语和语言方面，有哪些相似之处？
What are the differences?
有什么区别？
How should we think about speech and language?
我们应该如何思考言语和语言？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There really isn't such a sharp distinction.
其实并没有那么明显的区别。
Now, let me tell you how some people think of it now, that there's a separate language module in the brain that has all the algorithms and computations that influence the speech pathway on how to produce sound, and the auditory pathway on how to perceive and interpret it for speech or for sound that we call speech.
现在，让我告诉你现在有些人是怎么想的，大脑中有一个独立的语言模块，它拥有影响语音通路如何产生声音的所有算法和计算，以及影响听觉通路如何感知和解释语音或我们称之为语音的声音的所有算法和计算。
I don't think there is any good evidence for a separate language module.
我认为没有任何好的证据表明有单独的语言模块。
Instead, there is a speech production pathway that's controlling our larynx, controlling our jaw muscles, that has built within it all the complex algorithms for spoken language.
相反，有一条语音产生路径控制着我们的喉部，控制着我们的下巴肌肉，它内置了所有复杂的口语算法。
And there's the auditory pathway that has built within it all the complex algorithms for understanding speech, not separate from a language module.
还有听觉通路，它内置了所有用于理解语音的复杂算法，而不是与语言模块分开。
And this speech production pathway is specialized to humans and parrots and songbirds, whereas this auditory perception pathway is more ubiquitous amongst the animal kingdom, and this is why dogs can understand sit, , come here boy, get the ball, and so forth.
这种言语产生途径专门针对人类、鹦鹉和鸣禽，而这种听觉感知途径在动物王国中更为普遍，这就是为什么狗可以理解“坐下”、“来这里男孩”、“拿球”等等。
Dogs can understand several hundred human speech words.
狗可以理解数百个人类语言单词。
Great apes, you can teach them for several thousand, but they can't say a word.
大猿，你可以教他们几千，他们却一句话也说不出来。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
What do we understand about modes of communication that are like language but might not be what would classically be called language?
对于类似于语言但可能不是传统意义上的语言的交流模式，我们有何理解？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes.
是的。
Right.
正确的。
So next to the brain regions that are controlling spoken language are the brain regions for gesturing with the hands.
因此，除了控制口语的大脑区域之外，还有负责用手打手势的大脑区域。
And that hand parallel pathway has also complex algorithms that we can utilize.
手并行路径也有我们可以利用的复杂算法。
And some species are more advanced in these circuits, whether it's sound or gesturing with hands, and some are less advanced.
有些物种的这些电路更加先进，无论是声音还是手势，而有些物种则不太先进。
Humans are the most advanced at spoken language, but not necessarily as big a difference at gestural language compared to some other species.
人类在口语方面是最先进的，但与其他一些物种相比，在手势语言方面的差异不一定那么大。
So as you and I are talking here today, and people who are listening but can't see us, we're actually gesturing with our hands as we talk without knowing it or doing it unconsciously.
因此，当你和我今天在这里讲话时，那些正在听但看不到我们的人，我们在讲话时实际上是在做手势，但我们不知道或无意识地这样做。
And if we were talking on a telephone, I would have one hand here, and I would be gesturing with the other hand- ...
如果我们通过电话交谈，我会用一只手放在这里，而我会用另一只手做手势-...
without even you seeing me.
连你都没有看到我。
Right?
正确的？
And so why is that?
那么这是为什么呢？
Some have argued, and I would agree based upon what we've seen, is that there's an evolutionary relationship between the brain pathways that control speech production and gesturing.
有些人认为，根据我们所看到的情况，我同意，控制言语产生和手势的大脑通路之间存在进化关系。
And the brain regions I mentioned are directly adjacent to each other.
我提到的大脑区域是直接相邻的。
And why is that?
这是为什么呢？
I think that the brain pathways that control speech evolved out of the brain pathways that control body movement.
我认为控制言语的大脑通路是从控制身体运动的大脑通路进化而来的。
All right?
好的？
And that when you talk about Italian, French, English, and so forth, each one of those languages come with a learned set of gestures that you can communicate with.
当你谈论意大利语、法语、英语等时，每一种语言都带有一套习得的手势，你可以用它们进行交流。
Now, how is that related to other animals?
现在，这与其他动物有何关系？
Well, Coco, a gorilla who was raised with humans for 39 years or more, learned how to do gesture communication, learned how to sign language, so to speak.
嗯，可可，一只与人类一起长大了 39 年或更长时间的大猩猩，学会了如何进行手势交流，学会了如何手语，可以这么说。
Right?
正确的？
But Coco couldn't produce those sounds.
但可可无法发出这些声音。
Coco could understand them as well by seeing somebody sign or hearing somebody produce speech, but Coco couldn't produce it with her voice.
可可也可以通过看到某人的手语或听到某人的讲话来理解它们，但可可无法用她的声音来表达。
And so what's going on there is that a number of species, not all of them, a number of species have motor pathways in the brain where you can do learned gesturing, rudimentary language, if you want, say, with your limbs, even if it's not as advanced as humans, but they don't have this extra brain pathway for the sound, so they can't gesture with their voice in the way that they gesture with their hands.
所以那里发生的事情是，许多物种，不是全部，许多物种在大脑中都有运动通路，你可以在其中学习手势、基本语言，如果你愿意的话，比如说，用你的四肢，即使它不像人类那么先进，但它们没有这种额外的大脑通路来处理声音，所以它们不能像用手做手势那样用声音做手势。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Function.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 Function。
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此快照可深入了解您的心脏健康、激素健康、自身免疫功能、营养水平等。
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他们最近还增加了先进的 MRI 和 CT 扫描的访问权限。
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For example, in a recent test with Function, I learned that some of my blood lipids were slightly out of range.
例如，在最近的一次 Function 测试中，我发现我的一些血脂稍微超出了范围。
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因此，我决定开始补充纳豆激酶，它自然可以帮助降低低密度脂蛋白胆固醇，而且确实如此。
In a follow-up test, I could confirm that this strategy worked.
在后续测试中，我可以确认这个策略是有效的。
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我的血脂现在回到了我想要的范围内。
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Function 提供的那种全面的实验室测试对健康非常重要，虽然我已经这样做了很多年，但它总是过于复杂和昂贵。
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但现在有了 Function，它变得非常简单且经济实惠。
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One thing that I've wondered about for a very long time is whether or not primitive emotions and primitive sounds are the early substrate of language.
我长期以来一直想知道的一件事是，原始情感和原始声音是否是语言的早期基础。
When I smell something delicious, I typically inhale more.
当我闻到美味的东西时，我通常会吸入更多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
And I might say, "Mm." Or something like that.
我可能会说：“嗯。”或者类似的东西。
Whereas if I smell something putrid, I typically turn away, I wince, and I will exhale, trying to not ingest those molecules or inhale those molecules.
然而，如果我闻到腐臭的味道，我通常会转过身去，皱起眉头，然后呼气，试图不摄入或吸入这些分子。
I could imagine that these are the basic dark and light contrasts of the language system.
我可以想象这些是语言系统的基本明暗对比。
This kind of primitive to more sophisticated pyramid of sound to language.
这种从原始到更复杂的声音到语言的金字塔。
Is this a crazy idea?
这是一个疯狂的想法吗？
Do we have any evidence this is the way it works?
我们有任何证据证明这就是它的运作方式吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, it's not a crazy idea, and in fact, you hit upon one of the key distinctions in the field of research that I had started out in, which is vocal learning research.
不，这不是一个疯狂的想法，事实上，你偶然发现了我开始研究领域的一个关键区别，那就是声乐学习研究。
Most vertebrate species vocalize, but most of them are producing innate sounds that they're born with.
大多数脊椎动物都会发声，但它们中的大多数都会发出与生俱来的声音。
That is, babies crying, for example, or dogs barking.
也就是说，例如婴儿的哭泣或狗的吠叫。
And only a few species have learned vocal communication, the ability to imitate sounds, and that is what makes spoken language special.
只有少数物种学会了声音交流，即模仿声音的能力，这就是口语的特殊之处。
When people think of what's special about language, it's the learned vocalizations.
当人们想到语言的特别之处时，那就是习得的发声。
That is what's rare.
这才是罕见的。
So all the things you talked about, the breathing, the grunting, and so forth, a lot of that is handled by the brain stem circuits, right around the level of your neck and below.
所以你谈论的所有事情，呼吸，咕噜声等等，很多都是由脑干回路处理的，就在你脖子的水平及其以下。
Like a reflex kind of thing.
就像反射之类的东西。
Or even some emotional aspects of your behavior in the hypothalamus and so forth.
甚至是你下丘脑行为的一些情感方面等等。
But for a learned behavior, learning how to speak, learning how to play the piano, teaching a dog to learn how to do tricks, is using the forebrain circuits.
但对于后天习得的行为，学习如何说话、学习如何弹钢琴、教狗学习如何表演技巧，都是在使用前脑回路。
And what has happened is that there's a lot of forebrain circuits that are controlling learning how to move body parts in these species, but not for the vocalizations.
所发生的情况是，在这些物种中，有很多前脑回路正在控制学习如何移动身体部位，但不是为了发声。
But in humans, and in parrots, and some other species, somehow, we acquired circuits where the forebrain has taken over the brain stem, and now using that brain stem not only to produce the innate behaviors or vocal behaviors, but the learned ones as well.
但在人类、鹦鹉和其他一些物种中，不知何故，我们获得了前脑接管脑干的回路，现在利用脑干不仅产生先天的行为或声音行为，还产生后天习得的行为。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Do we have any sense of when modern or sophisticated language evolved?
我们是否知道现代或复杂的语言何时演变？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amongst the primates, which we humans belong to, we are the only ones that have this advanced vocal learning ability.
在我们人类所属的灵长类动物中，我们是唯一拥有这种高级发声学习能力的动物。
It was assumed that it was only Homo sapiens.
人们认为这只是智人。
Then you can go back in time now, based upon genomic data, not only of us living humans, but of the fossils that have been found for Homo sapiens, of Neanderthals, of Denisovan individuals, and discover that our ancestor, our human ancestors, supposedly hybridized with these other hominid species.
然后你现在可以根据基因组数据回到过去，不仅是我们活着的人类，而且是已发现的智人、尼安德特人、丹尼索瓦人的化石，并发现我们的祖先，我们的人类祖先，据说与这些其他原始人类物种杂交。
And it was assumed that these other hominid species don't learn how to imitate sounds.
人们认为这些其他原始人类物种不学习如何模仿声音。
I don't know of any species today that's a vocal learner that can have children with a non-vocal learning species.
我不知道今天有哪个物种能够与非声音学习物种生下孩子。
I don't see it.
我没看到。
Doesn't mean it didn't exist.
并不意味着它不存在。
And when we look at the genetic data from these ancestral hominids, where we can look at genes that are involved in learned vocal communication, they have the same sequence as we humans do, for genes that function in speech circuits.
当我们查看这些原始人类祖先的遗传数据时，我们可以查看与学习的声音交流有关的基因，它们与我们人类具有相同的序列，即在语音回路中发挥作用的基因。
So I think Neanderthals had spoken language.
所以我认为尼安德特人有口语。
I'm not going to say it's as advanced as what it is in humans.
我不会说它和人类一样先进。
I don't know.
我不知道。
But I think it's been there for at least between 500,000 to a million years.
但我认为它已经存在了至少 50 万到 100 万年。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Maybe we could talk a little bit more about the overlap between brain circuits that control language and speech in humans and other animals.
也许我们可以更多地讨论人类和其他动物控制语言和言语的大脑回路之间的重叠。
I was weaned in the neuroscience era where bird song and the ability of birds to learn their tutor song was, and still is, a prominent field-
我是在神经科学时代断奶的，在那个时代，鸟鸣和鸟类学习导师鸣叫的能力过去是、现在仍然是一个突出的领域——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
...
...
subfield of neuroscience, and this notion of a critical period.
神经科学的子领域，以及关键时期的概念。
A time in which language is learned more easily than it is later in life.
在这个时代，学习语言比晚年更容易。
And the names of the different brain areas were quite different.
而且不同脑区的名称也大不相同。
If one opens the textbooks, we hear Wernickes and Brocas for the humans, and you look at the bird stuff, I remember-
如果有人打开教科书，我们会听到韦尼克斯和布罗卡斯代表人类，而你看看鸟类的东西，我记得——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
HVC
高压气相色谱
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
...
...
yeah, robust archstratum-
是的，强大的架构-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's right
没错
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
...
...
area X.
X 区。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's right.
没错。
Yes.
是的。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
How similar or different are the brain areas controlling speech and language in, say, a songbird and a young human child?
例如，鸣禽和人类儿童控制言语和语言的大脑区域有何相似或不同？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So going back to the 1950s or, and even a little earlier, and Peter Marler and others who got involved in neuroethology, the study of neurobiology of behavior in a natural way.
回到 20 世纪 50 年代，甚至更早一点，彼得·马勒 (Peter Marler) 和其他参与神经行为学的人，以自然的方式研究行为的神经生物学。
They started to find that behaviorally, there are these species of birds, like songbirds and parrots, and now we also know hummingbirds, just three of them, out of the 40-something bird groups out there on the planet, orders, that they can imitate sounds like we do.
他们开始发现，在行为上，有这些鸟类，比如鸣禽和鹦鹉，现在我们也知道了蜂鸟，在地球上 40 多种鸟类中，只有蜂鸟中的三种，它们可以像我们一样模仿声音。
And so that was a similarity.
这就是相似之处。
In other words, they had this kind of behavior that's more similar to us than chimpanzees have with us or than chickens have with them.
换句话说，它们的这种行为与我们的行为比黑猩猩与我们或鸡与它们的行为更为相似。
They're closer relatives.
他们是更近的亲戚。
And then they discovered even more similarities, these critical periods.
然后他们发现了更多相似之处，即这些关键时期。
That if you remove a child, this unfortunately happens where a child is feral, and is not raised with human, and goes through their puberty phase of growth, it becomes hard for them to learn a language as an adult.
如果你把一个孩子移走，不幸的是，这种情况会发生在一个孩子是野性的、没有与人类一起抚养的地方，并且经历了青春期的成长阶段，他们成年后很难学习语言。
So there's this critical period where you learn best.
所以这是你学得最好的关键时期。
And even later on, when you're in regular society, it's hard to learn.
甚至后来，当你进入正常社会时，也很难学习。
Well, the birds undergo the same thing.
嗯，鸟类也会经历同样的事情。
And then it was discovered that if they become deaf, we humans become deaf, our speech starts to deteriorate without any kind of therapy.
然后人们发现，如果他们聋了，我们人类也会聋，在没有任何治疗的情况下，我们的语言能力就会开始恶化。
If a non-human primate or let's say a chicken becomes deaf, their vocalizations don't deteriorate.
如果非人类灵长类动物或者比方说一只鸡聋了，它们的发声能力不会恶化。
Very little, at least.
至少很少。
Well, this happens in the vocal learning birds.
嗯，这种情况发生在学习发声的鸟类身上。
So there were all these behavioral parallels that came along in a package, and then people looked into the brain, Fernando Nottebohm, my former PhD advisor, and began to discover the area X you talked about, the robust nucleus of the archipallium.
因此，所有这些行为上的相似之处都集中在一起，然后人们研究了我的前博士生导师 Fernando Nottebohm 的大脑，并开始发现你谈到的 X 区域，即群岛的强大核。
And And these brain pathways were not found in the species who couldn't imitate.
而且这些大脑通路在无法模仿的物种中并没有被发现。
So there was a parallel here.
所以这里有一个相似之处。
And then, jumping many years later, I started to dig down into these brain circuits to discover that these brain circuits have parallel functions with the brain circuits for humans, even though they're by a different name like Broca's and laryngeal motor cortex.
然后，多年后，我开始深入研究这些大脑回路，发现这些大脑回路与人类的大脑回路具有平行的功能，尽管它们的名称不同，如布罗卡和喉部运动皮层。
And most recently, we discovered not only the actual circuitry and the connectivity are similar, but the underlying genes that are expressed in these brain regions, in a specialized way different from the rest of the brain, are also similar between humans and songbirds and parrots.
最近，我们发现，人类与鸣禽和鹦鹉之间不仅实际电路和连接相似，而且这些大脑区域以不同于大脑其他部分的特殊方式表达的潜在基因也相似。
So all the way down to the genes, and now we're finding the specific mutations are also similar, not always identical, but similar, which indicates remarkable convergence for a so-called complex behavior in species separated by 300 million years from a common ancestor.
所以一直到基因，现在我们发现特定的突变也相似，并不总是相同，但相似，这表明与共同祖先相隔 3 亿年的物种的所谓复杂行为显着趋同。
And not only that, we are discovering that mutations in these genes that cause speech deficits in humans, like in FOXP2, if you put those same mutations or similar type of deficits in these vocal learning birds, you get similar deficits.
不仅如此，我们发现这些基因的突变会导致人类语言缺陷，就像 FOXP2 中的那样，如果你在这些声音学习鸟类中放置相同的突变或类似类型的缺陷，你会得到类似的缺陷。
So convergence of the behavior is associated with similar genetic disorders of the behavior.
因此，行为的趋同与类似的行为遗传疾病有关。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Do hummingbirds sing or do they hum?
蜂鸟会唱歌还是嗡嗡声？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hummingbirds hum with their wings and sing with their syrinx.
蜂鸟用翅膀嗡嗡作响，用鸣管歌唱。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
In a coordinated way?
以协调的方式？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In a coordinated way.
以协调的方式。
There are some species of hummingbirds that actually will, Doug Ashler showed this, that will flap their wings and create a slapping sound with their wings that's in unison with their song.
道格·阿什勒（Doug Ashler）表示，有些种类的蜂鸟实际上会拍打翅膀，并用翅膀发出与它们的歌声一致的拍打声。
And you would not know it, but it sounds like a particular syllable in their songs, even though it's their wings and their voice at the same time.
你不会知道，但这听起来像是他们歌曲中的一个特定音节，尽管它同时是他们的翅膀和声音。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Hummingbirds are clapping to their song.
蜂鸟正随着它们的歌声拍手。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Clapping, they're snapping their wings together, in unison with a song to make it like, if I'm going and I banged on the table.
它们拍手，拍打翅膀，与一首歌齐声，就像我要走时拍桌子一样。
Except they make it almost sound like their voice with their wings.
只是它们听起来几乎就像是用翅膀发出的声音。
What's amazing about hummingbirds, and I'm going to say vocal learning species in general, is that for whatever reason, they seem to evolve multiple complex traits.
蜂鸟（我想说的是一般的声音学习物种）的惊人之处在于，无论出于何种原因，它们似乎进化出了多种复杂的特征。
This idea that evolving language, spoken language in particular, comes along with a set of specializations.
这种观点认为，不断发展的语言，特别是口语，伴随着一系列专业化。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
When I was coming up in neuroscience, I learned that, I think it was the work of Peter Marler, that young birds, songbirds, learn their tutor's song, and learn it quite well, but that they could learn the song of another tutor.
当我进入神经科学领域时，我了解到，我认为这是彼得·马勒的工作，幼鸟、鸣禽学习他们导师的歌曲，并且学得很好，但他们也可以学习另一位导师的歌曲。
In other words, they could learn a different, and for the listeners, I'm doing air quotes here, a different language, a different bird song.
换句话说，他们可以学习不同的，对于听众来说，我在这里做空中引语，一种不同的语言，一种不同的鸟鸣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Different than their own species' song.
与自己物种的歌曲不同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
But never as well as they could learn their own natural, genetically linked song.
但他们却永远无法很好地学习自己自然的、与基因相关的歌曲。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes.
是的。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Genetically linked, meaning that it would be like me being raised in a different culture, and that I would learn the other language, but not as well as I would have learned English.
基因相关，这意味着就像我在不同的文化中长大一样，我会学习另一种语言，但不如我学英语那么好。
This is the idea.
这就是想法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes.
是的。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Is that true?
这是真的吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That is true, yes.
确实如此，是的。
And that's what I learned growing up as well, and talked to Peter Marler himself about before he passed.
这也是我在成长过程中学到的，并在彼得·马勒去世前与他本人谈论过。
He used to call it the innate predisposition to learn.
他过去称之为学习的先天倾向。
All right, so which would be kind of the equivalent in the linguistic community of universal grammar.
好吧，这在普遍语法的语言界中是相当的。
There is something genetically influencing our vocal communication on top of what we learn culturally.
除了我们所学到的文化之外，还有一些基因因素会影响我们的声音交流。
And so there's this balance between the genetic control of speech, or a song in these birds, and the learned cultural control.
因此，这些鸟类的语言或歌曲的遗传控制与习得的文化控制之间存在着这种平衡。
And so, yes, if you were to take, in this case, we actually tried this at Rockefeller later on, take a zebra finch and raise it with a canary, it would sing a song that was sort of like a hybrid in between.
所以，是的，如果你要采取，在这种情况下，我们后来在洛克菲勒尝试过，采取一只斑胸草雀并用金丝雀饲养它，它会唱一首有点像两者之间的混合体的歌曲。
We call it a caninch.
我们称其为caninch。
And vice versa for the canary, because there's something different about their vocal musculature or the circuitry in the brain.
对于金丝雀来说反之亦然，因为它们的声音肌肉组织或大脑回路有所不同。
And with a zebra finch, even with a closely related species, if you would take a zebra finch, a young animal, and in one cage next to it place its own species, adult male.
对于斑胸草雀，即使是密切相关的物种，如果您将一只斑胸草雀（一种幼小的动物）放在它旁边的一个笼子里，则放置它自己的物种（成年雄性）。
And in the other cage, place a Bengalese finch next to it, it would preferably learn the song from its own species neighbor.
在另一个笼子里，在它旁边放一只孟加拉雀，它最好从它自己的物种邻居那里学习这首歌。
But if you remove its neighbor, it would learn that Bengalese finch very well.
但如果你把它的邻居移走，它就会知道孟加拉雀非常好。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Fantastic.
太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, it has something to do with, also, the social bonding with your own species.
所以，它也与你们自己物种的社会联系有关。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
That raises a question that based on something I also heard, but I don't have any scientific, peer-reviewed publication to point to, which is this idea of pidgin, not the bird, but this idea of when multiple cultures and languages converge in a given geographic area, that the children of all the different native languages will come up with their own language.
这就提出了一个问题，基于我也听到的一些事情，但我没有任何科学的、经过同行评审的出版物可以指出，这就是洋泾浜的想法，而不是鸟，而是当多种文化和语言在一个特定的地理区域融合时，所有不同母语的孩子都会想出自己的语言。
I think this was in island culture, maybe in Hawaii, called Pidgin.
我认为这是岛屿文化，也许在夏威夷，称为洋泾浜文化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Which is sort of a hybrid of the various languages that their parents speak at home, and that they themselves speak, and that somehow Pidgin, again, not the bird, but a language called Pidgin for reasons I don't know, harbors certain basic elements of all language.
这是他们父母在家里说的各种语言和他们自己说的各种语言的混合体，而且不知何故，洋泾浜语，不是鸟，而是一种称为洋泾浜语，出于我不知道的原因，包含所有语言的某些基本元素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Is that true?
这是真的吗？
Is that not true?
这不是真的吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What is going on here is cultural evolution remarkably tracks genetic evolution.
这里发生的事情是文化进化显着地追踪基因进化。
So if you bring people from two separate populations together that have been in their separate populations evolutionarily at least, for hundreds of generations, so someone speaking Chinese, someone speaking English, and that child then is learning from both of them.
因此，如果你把来自两个不同种群的人聚集在一起，他们至少在不同的种群中进化了数百代，那么有人说中文，有人说英语，那么那个孩子就会向他们两个学习。
Yes, that child's going to be able to pick up and merge phonemes and words together in a way That an adult wouldn't.
是的，那个孩子将能够以成年人无法做到的方式拾取音素和单词并将其合并在一起。
Because why they're experiencing both languages at the same time during their critical period years in a way that adults would not be able to experience.
因为为什么他们在关键时期以成年人无法体验的方式同时体验两种语言。
And so you get a hybrid, and the lowest common denominator is going to be what they share.
所以你得到了一个混合体，最低的共同点就是它们的共同之处。
And so the phonemes that they've retained in each of their languages is what's going to be, I imagine, used the most.
因此，我想，他们在每种语言中保留的音素将是使用最多的音素。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 for nearly 15 years now.
你们很多人都知道，我服用 AG1 已有近 15 年了。
I discovered it way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since.
我早在 2012 年就发现了它，那时我还没有播客，从那时起我就每天都在听它。
The reason I started taking it, and the reason I still take it, is because AG1 is, to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market.
我开始服用它的原因，以及我仍然服用它的原因，是因为据我所知，AG1是市场上质量最高、最全面的基础营养补充剂。
It combines vitamins, minerals, prebiotics, probiotics, and adaptogens into a single scoop that's easy to drink, and it tastes great.
它将维生素、矿物质、益生元、益生菌和适应原结合到一勺中，易于饮用，味道极佳。
It's designed to support things like gut health, immune health, and overall energy, and it does so by helping to fill any gaps you might have in your daily nutrition.
它旨在支持肠道健康、免疫健康和整体能量等，并通过帮助填补您日常营养中可能存在的任何缺口来实现这一目标。
Now, of course, everyone should strive to eat nutritious whole foods.
当然，现在每个人都应该努力吃有营养的天然食品。
I certainly do that every day.
我当然每天都这样做。
But I'm often asked, if you could take just one supplement, what would that supplement be?
但我经常被问到，如果您只能服用一种补充剂，那么该补充剂会是什么？
And my answer is always AG1, because it has just been so critical to supporting all aspects of my physical health, mental health, and performance.
我的答案始终是 AG1，因为它对于支持我的身体健康、心理健康和表现的各个方面都非常重要。
I know this from my own experience with AG1, and I continually hear this from other people who use AG1 daily.
我从自己使用 AG1 的经验中了解到这一点，并且我不断从其他每天使用 AG1 的人那里听到这一点。
If you would like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 以获得特别优惠。
For a limited time, AG1 is giving away six free travel packs of AG1 and a bottle of vitamin D3 K2 with your subscription.
限时订阅后，AG1 将赠送 6 个免费 AG1 旅行包和一瓶维生素 D3 K2。
Again, that's drinkag1, with the numeral one, .com/huberman to get six free travel packs and a bottle of vitamin D3 K2 with your subscription.
同样，这是 Drinkag1，通过数字 1 .com/huberman 订阅即可获得六个免费旅行包和一瓶维生素 D3 K2。
So we've got brain circuits in songbirds and in humans that, in many ways, are similar, perhaps not in their exact wiring, but in their basic contour of wiring, and genes that are expressed in both sets of neural circuits in very distinct species that are responsible for these phenomena we're calling speech and language.
因此，我们发现鸣禽和人类的大脑回路在很多方面都是相似的，也许不是它们的精确接线，而是它们的基本接线轮廓，以及在非常不同的物种的两组神经回路中表达的基因，这些基因负责我们称之为言语和语言的这些现象。
What are these genes doing?
这些基因在做什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One of the things that differ in the speech pathways of us and these song pathways of birds is some of the connections are fundamentally different than the surrounding circuits, like a direct cortical connection from the areas that control vocalizations in the cortex to the motor neurons that control the larynx in humans, or the syrinx in birds.
我们的言语路径和鸟类的鸣叫路径的不同之处之一是，某些连接与周围的电路有根本的不同，例如从皮层控制发声的区域到控制人类喉部或鸟类鸣管的运动神经元的直接皮层连接。
And so we actually made a prediction that since some of these connections differ, we're going to find genes that control neural connectivity, and that specialize in that function, that differ.
所以我们实际上做出了一个预测，由于其中一些连接不同，我们将找到控制神经连接的基因，并且专门从事该功能的基因，是不同的。
And that's exactly what we found.
这正是我们的发现。
The genes that control what we call axon guidance and form instant connections.
控制我们所说的轴突引导并形成即时连接的基因。
And what was interesting, it was sort of in the opposite direction that we expected.
有趣的是，它的方向与我们预期的相反。
That is, some of these genes, actually, a number of them that control neural connectivity, were turned off in the speech circuit.
也就是说，其中一些基因，实际上是控制神经连接的一些基因，在言语回路中被关闭。
All right.
好的。
And it didn't make sense to us at first until we started to realize the function of these genes are to repel connections from forming.
起初这对我们来说没有意义，直到我们开始意识到这些基因的功能是阻止连接的形成。
So repulsive molecules.
如此排斥的分子。
And so when you turn them off, they allow certain connections to form that normally would have not formed.
因此，当你关闭它们时，它们会允许形成某些通常不会形成的连接。
So by turning it off, you got a gain of function for speech.
因此，通过关闭它，你可以获得言语功能。
Other genes that surprised us were genes involved in calcium buffering, neuroprotection, like a parvalbumin or a heat shock protein.
其他令我们惊讶的基因是涉及钙缓冲、神经保护的基因，如小清蛋白或热休克蛋白。
So when your brain gets hot, these proteins turn on.
因此，当你的大脑变热时，这些蛋白质就会启动。
And we couldn't figure out for a long time why is that the case.
我们很长一段时间都想不通为什么会这样。
And then the idea popped to me one day and said, "Ah," when I heard the larynx is the fastest firing muscles in the body.
然后有一天，当我听说喉部是身体中发射最快的肌肉时，我突然想到了这个想法，并说“啊”。
All right.
好的。
In order to vibrate sound and modulate sound in the way we do, you have to move those muscles three to four to five times faster than just regular walking or running.
为了以我们的方式振动声音和调制声音，您必须以比常规步行或跑步快三到四到五倍的速度移动这些肌肉。
And so when you stick electrodes in the brain areas that control learned vocalizations in these birds, and I think in humans as well, those neurons are firing at a higher rate to control these muscles.
因此，当你将电极插入这些鸟类（我认为人类也如此）控制习得发声的大脑区域时，这些神经元会以更高的速率放电来控制这些肌肉。
And so what is that going to do?
那么那会做什么呢？
You're going to have lots of toxicity in those neurons unless you upregulate molecules that take out the extra load that is needed to control the larynx.
除非你上调分子来消除控制喉部所需的额外负荷，否则这些神经元中将会有很多毒性。
And then finally, a third set of genes that specialize in the speech circuit are involved in neuroplasticity.
最后，专门研究言语回路的第三组基因与神经可塑性有关。
Neuroplasticity meaning allowing the brain circuits to be more flexible, so you can learn better.
神经可塑性意味着让大脑回路更加灵活，这样你就能学得更好。
And why is that?
这是为什么呢？
I think learning how to produce speech is a more complex learning ability than, say, learning how to walk or learning how to do tricks and jumps and so forth that dogs do.
我认为学习如何发出言语是一种比狗学习如何走路或学习如何做技巧和跳跃等更复杂的学习能力。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
In terms of plasticity of speech and the ability to learn multiple languages, but even just one language, what's going on in the so-called critical period?
就言语的可塑性和学习多种语言甚至一种语言的能力而言，在所谓的关键时期发生了什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
And then the second question is, if one can already speak more than one language as a consequence of childhood learning, is it easier to acquire new languages later on?
那么第二个问题是，如果一个人在童年学习的过程中已经能够说一种以上的语言，那么以后学习新语言是否会更容易？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Actually, the entire brain is undergoing a critical period development, not just the speech pathways.
事实上，不仅仅是言语通路，整个大脑都在经历一个关键的发育时期。
And so it's easier to learn how to play a piano.
因此学习弹钢琴会更容易。
It's easier to learn how to ride a bike for the first time, and so forth, as a young child than it is later in life.
在年幼的时候第一次学习如何骑自行车比在以后的生活中更容易。
The brain can only hold so much information, and if you are undergoing rapid learning to acquire new knowledge, you also have to put memory or information in the trash, like in a computer.
大脑只能容纳这么多信息，如果你正在经历快速学习以获取新知识，你还必须将记忆或信息扔进垃圾桶，就像电脑一样。
You only have so many gigabases of memory.
你只有那么多千兆字节的内存。
Plus, also for survival, you don't want to keep forgetting things.
另外，也是为了生存，你不想一直忘记事情。
And so the brain is designed, I believe, to undergo this critical period and solidify the circuits with what you learned as a child, and you use that for the rest of your life.
因此，我相信，大脑的设计就是为了经历这个关键时期，并用你小时候学到的知识来巩固电路，并在你的余生中使用它。
And now, the question you asked about if you learn more languages as a child, is it easier to learn as an adult?
现在，你问的问题是，如果你小时候学的语言越多，长大后学起来会更容易吗？
And that's a common finding out there in the literature.
这是文献中常见的发现。
There are some that argue against it, but for those that support it, the idea there is You are born with a set of innate sounds you can produce, of phonemes, and you narrow that down because not all languages use all of them.
有些人反对它，但对于那些支持它的人来说，这个想法是，你生来就有一组可以发出的固有声音，即音素，你可以缩小范围，因为并非所有语言都使用所有这些声音。
And so you narrow down the ones you use to string the phonemes together into words that you learn, and you maintain those phonemes as an adult.
因此，你缩小了用于将音素串成你所学单词的范围，并在成年后保留这些音素。
And here comes along another language that's using those phonemes or in different combinations you're not used to.
另一种语言正在使用这些音素或以您不习惯的不同组合出现。
And therefore, it's like starting from first principles.
因此，这就像从第一原则开始。
But if you already have them in multiple languages that you're using, then it makes it easier to use them in another third or fourth language.
但是，如果您已经拥有正在使用的多种语言版本的它们，那么在其他第三种或第四种语言中使用它们会更容易。
So it's not like your brain has maintained greater plasticity, it's your brain has maintained greater ability to produce different sounds that then allows you to learn another language faster.
因此，并不是说您的大脑保持了更大的可塑性，而是您的大脑保持了产生不同声音的更大能力，从而使您可以更快地学习另一种语言。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
What about modes of speech and language that seem to have a depth of emotionality and meaning, but for which it departs from structured language?
那些似乎具有深厚的情感和意义但又偏离结构化语言的言语和语言模式又如何呢？
I think of musicians like, there's some Bob Dylan songs that to me, I understand the individual words.
我想到音乐家，比如鲍勃·迪伦的一些歌曲，对我来说，我理解其中的每个词。
I like to think there's an emotion associated with it.
我喜欢认为有一种与之相关的情感。
At least I experience some sort of emotion, and I have a guess about what he was experiencing.
至少我感受到了某种情绪，并且我猜到了他正在经历什么。
But if I were to just read it linearly without the music and without him singing it, or somebody singing it like him, it wouldn't hold any meaning.
但如果我只是线性地阅读它，没有音乐，没有他唱歌，或者有人像他一样唱歌，它就没有任何意义。
So in other words, words that seem to have meaning, but not associated with language, but somehow tap into an emotionality.
换句话说，这些词似乎有意义，但与语言无关，但以某种方式激发了情感。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
So, we call this difference semantic communication, communication with meaning, and effective communication, communication that has more of an emotional feeling content to it.
因此，我们将这种差异称为“语义沟通”、“有意义的沟通”和“有效沟通”，即更多包含情感内容的沟通。
I believe, based upon imaging work and work we see in birds, when birds are communicating semantic information in their sounds, which is not too often, but it happens, versus effective communication, sing because I'm trying to attract the mate, my courtship song, or defend my territory.
我相信，根据我们在鸟类身上看到的成像工作和工作，当鸟类在声音中交流语义信息时，这种情况并不常见，但它发生了，而不是有效的交流，唱歌是因为我试图吸引配偶，我的求爱歌曲，或捍卫我的领地。
It's the same brain circuits.
这是相同的大脑回路。
It's the same speech-like or song circuits are being used in different ways.
同样的类似语音或歌曲的电路被以不同的方式使用。
There's several other points here I think it's important for those listening out there to hear, is that when I say also this effective and semantic communication being used by similar brain circuits, it also matters the side of the brain.
这里还有其他几点，我认为对于那些倾听的人来说很重要的是，当我说类似的大脑回路使用这种有效的语义交流时，大脑的一侧也很重要。
In birds and in humans, there's left-right dominance for learned communication, learned sound communication.
对于鸟类和人类来说，习得性交流、习得性声音交流存在左右优势。
So the left in us humans is more dominant for speech, but the right has a more balance for singing or processing musical sounds as opposed to processing speech.
因此，我们人类的左翼在言语方面更占主导地位，但与处理言语相比，右翼在唱歌或处理音乐声音方面更具平衡性。
Both get used for both reasons.
两者都因两个原因而被使用。
And so when people say your right brain is your artistic brain and your left brain is your thinking brain, this is what they're referring to.
因此，当人们说你的右脑是你的艺术脑，你的左脑是你的思考脑时，他们指的就是这个。
And so that's another distinction.
这是另一个区别。
The second thing that's useful to know is that all vocal learning species use their learned sounds for this emotional, effective kind of communication.
第二件有用的事情是，所有学习声音的物种都使用他们学到的声音来进行这种情感上的、有效的交流。
But only a few of them, like humans and some parrots and dolphins, use it for the semantic kind of communication, we're calling speech.
但只有少数动物，比如人类、一些鹦鹉和海豚，将其用于语义交流，我们称之为语音。
And that has led a number of people to hypothesize that the evolution of spoken language, of speech, evolved first for singing, for this more emotional mate attraction, like the Jennifer Lopez, the Ricky Martin kind of songs and so forth.
这导致许多人推测，口语、演讲的进化首先是为了唱歌，为了这种更情感化的伴侣吸引力，比如詹妮弗·洛佩兹、瑞奇·马丁的歌曲等等。
And then later on, it became used for abstract communication like we're doing now.
后来，它被用于抽象通信，就像我们现在所做的那样。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Eight Sleep.
我想稍微休息一下，并向我们的赞助商“八睡”表示感谢。
Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity.
August Sleep 生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。
One of the best ways to ensure you get a great night's sleep is to make sure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct.
确保您睡个好觉的最佳方法之一是确保睡眠环境的温度正确。
And that's because in order to fall asleep and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees.
这是因为为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的体温实际上必须下降约一到三度。
And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees.
为了醒来时感觉神清气爽、精力充沛，您的体温实际上必须升高约一到三度。
Eight Sleep automatically regulates the temperature of your bed throughout the night according to your unique needs.
八睡眠会根据您的独特需求自动调节整个晚上的床温。
I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for nearly five years now, and it has completely transformed and improved the quality of my sleep.
我已经睡在八睡眠床垫罩上近五年了，它彻底改变并改善了我的睡眠质量。
The latest Eight Sleep model is the Pod 5.
最新的八睡眠型号是 Pod 5。
This is what I'm now sleeping on, and I absolutely love it.
这就是我现在睡觉的地方，我非常喜欢它。
It has so many incredible features.
它有很多令人难以置信的功能。
For instance, the Pod 5 has a feature called Autopilot, which is an AI engine that learns your sleep patterns and then adjusts the temperature of your sleeping environment across different sleep stages.
例如，Pod 5有一个名为Autopilot的功能，这是一个人工智能引擎，可以学习你的睡眠模式，然后在不同的睡眠阶段调整你的睡眠环境温度。
It'll even elevate your head if you're snoring, and it makes other shifts to optimize your sleep.
如果您打鼾，它甚至会抬高您的头部，并进行其他转换以优化您的睡眠。
If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, go to eightsleep.com/huberman to get up to $350 off the new Pod 5.
如果您想尝试八睡眠，请访问八睡眠.com/huberman，新款 Pod 5 最高可享受 350 美元优惠。
Eight Sleep ships to many countries worldwide, including Mexico and the UAE.
八号睡眠船运往世界各地的许多国家，包括墨西哥和阿联酋。
Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $350.
同样，访问八睡眠.com/huberman 最多可节省 350 美元。
I'd love to chat a moment about facial expression, many of which are subconscious.
我很想聊聊面部表情，其中很多都是潜意识的。
We are all familiar with the fact that when what somebody says doesn't match some specific feature of their facial expression, that mismatch can cue our attention.
我们都熟悉这样一个事实：当某人所说的话与他们面部表情的某些特定特征不匹配时，这种不匹配会引起我们的注意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
So how does motor circuitry that controls facial expression map onto the brain circuits that control language, speech, and even bodily and hand movements?
那么，控制面部表情的运动电路如何映射到控制语言、言语甚至身体和手部运动的大脑电路上呢？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
You ask a great question because we both know some colleagues like Winrich Freiwald at Rockefeller University who study facial expression and the neurobiology behind it.
你问了一个很好的问题，因为我们都认识像洛克菲勒大学的 Winrich Freiwald 这样的同事，他们研究面部表情及其背后的神经生物学。
Non-human primates have a lot of diversity in their facial expression like we humans do.
像我们人类一样，非人类灵长类动物的面部表情也有很多多样性。
And what we know about the neurobiology of brain regions controlling those muscles of the face is that these non-human primates and some other species that don't learn how to imitate vocalizations, they have strong connections from the cortical regions to the motor neurons that control facial expressions.
我们对控制面部肌肉的大脑区域的神经生物学了解是，这些非人类灵长类动物和其他一些不学习如何模仿发声的物种，它们从皮质区域到控制面部表情的运动神经元有很强的联系。
And even though it's more diverse in these non-human primates, there was already a preexisting diversity of communication, whether it's intentional or unconscious, through facial expression in our ancestors.
尽管这些非人类灵长类动物的交流更加多样化，但我们的祖先已经通过面部表情进行了预先存在的交流多样性，无论是有意的还是无意识的。
And on top of that, we humans now add the voice, along with those facial expressions.
最重要的是，我们人类现在添加了声音以及面部表情。
So it's like an email, too.
所以它也像一封电子邮件。
You're emailing and someone says something by email.
您正在发送电子邮件，有人通过电子邮件说了一些话。
Someone can interpret that angrily or gently, and it becomes ambiguous.
有人可以愤怒地或温和地解释它，它就会变得模棱两可。
The facial expressions get rid of that ambiguity.
面部表情消除了这种歧义。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
I'm so glad you brought that up, because my next question was, and is about written language.
我很高兴你提出这个问题，因为我的下一个问题是关于书面语言的。
What is the process of going from a thought to language to written word, and what's going on there?
从思想到语言再到书面文字的过程是怎样的？那里发生了什么？
What do we know about the neural circuitry?
我们对神经回路了解多少？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What I think is going on is, to explain what you're asking, is about that I'm going to take it from the perspective of reading something.
我认为正在发生的事情是，为了解释你所问的问题，我将从阅读某些东西的角度来看待它。
You read something on a paper.
你在纸上读到一些东西。
The signal from the paper goes through your eyes.
纸上发出的信号会通过你的眼睛。
It goes to the back of your brain, to your visual cortical regions, eventually.
它最终会到达你的大脑后部，到达你的视觉皮层区域。
That visual signal then goes to your speech pathway in the motor cortex in front here in Broca's area, and you silently speak what you read in your brain without moving your muscles.
然后，该视觉信号进入布罗卡区前方运动皮层的言语通路，您可以默默地说出您在大脑中读到的内容，而无需移动肌肉。
And sometimes, actually, if you put electrodes, EMG electrodes on your laryngeal muscles, even on birds you can do this, you'll see activity there while you're reading or trying to speak silently, even though no sound's coming out.
有时，实际上，如果你把电极、肌电图电极放在你的喉部肌肉上，即使是在鸟类身上，你也可以这样做，当你阅读或试图无声说话时，你会看到那里的活动，即使没有声音发出。
And so your speech pathway is now speaking what you're reading.
所以你的言语路径现在正在说出你正在阅读的内容。
Now, to finish it off, that signal is sent to your auditory pathway so you can hear what you're speaking in your own head.
现在，为了完成它，该信号被发送到您的听觉通路，这样您就可以听到自己在脑海中所说的话。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
That's incredible.
这太不可思议了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this is why it's complicated.
这就是为什么它很复杂。
Oh, and then you got to write.
哦，然后你就得写。
Right?
正确的？
Okay, here comes the fourth one.
好的，第四个来了。
Now, the hand area next to your speech pathway has got to take that auditory signal, or even the adjacent motor signals for speaking, and translate it into a visual signal on paper.
现在，靠近言语通道的手部区域必须接收听觉信号，甚至邻近的说话运动信号，并将其转化为纸上的视觉信号。
So you're using at least four brain circuits, which includes the speech production and the speech perception pathways to write.
所以你至少使用了四个大脑回路，其中包括言语产生和言语感知通路来写作。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Stutter is a particularly interesting case.
口吃是一个特别有趣的例子。
What is the current neurobiological understanding of stutter, and what's being developed in terms of treatments for stutter?
目前对口吃的神经生物学理解是什么？口吃治疗方面正在开发什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So we actually accidentally came across stuttering in songbirds, and we've published several papers on this to try to figure out the neurobiological basis.
所以我们实际上无意中发现了鸣禽的口吃现象，我们已经发表了几篇关于此问题的论文，试图找出其神经生物学基础。
The first study we had was a brain area called the basal ganglia, or the striatum part of the basal ganglia involved in coordinating movements, learning how to make movements.
我们进行的第一项研究是称为基底神经节的大脑区域，或基底神经节的纹状体部分，涉及协调运动，学习如何进行运动。
When it was damaged in a speech-like pathway in these birds, what we found is that they started to stutter as the brain region recovered.
当这些鸟类的类似语言的通路受损时，我们发现，随着大脑区域的恢复，它们开始口吃。
And unlike humans, they actually recovered after three or four months.
与人类不同的是，它们实际上在三四个月后就康复了。
And why is that the case?
为什么会这样呢？
Because bird brains undergoes new neurogenesis in a way that human or mammal brains don't.
因为鸟类的大脑会经历新的神经发生，而人类或哺乳动物的大脑则不会。
And it was the new neurons that were coming in, into the circuit, but not quite with the right proper activity, was resulting in this stuttering in these birds.
正是新的神经元进入了回路，但没有完全发挥正确的活动，导致了这些鸟的口吃。
And after it was repaired, not exactly the old song came back after the repair, but still, it recovered a lot better.
而且修复之后，虽然不完全是老歌修复回来了，但是，还是恢复的好很多了。
And it's now known, they call this neurogenic stuttering in humans, with damage to the basal ganglia or some type of disruption to the basal ganglia at a young age also causes stuttering in humans.
现在人们知道，他们称之为人类神经源性口吃，基底神经节受损或基底神经节在年轻时受到某种类型的破坏也会导致人类口吃。
And even those who are born with stuttering, it's often the basal ganglia that's disrupted than some other brain circuit.
即使是那些天生口吃的人，也常常是基底神经节比其他大脑回路受到了干扰。
And we think the speech part of the basal ganglia.
我们认为言语是基底神经节的一部分。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Can adults who maintain a stutter from childhood repair that stutter?
从小就有口吃的成年人可以修复口吃吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There are ways to overcome the stuttering through behavioral therapy.
有一些方法可以通过行为疗法来克服口吃。
And I think all of the tools out there have something to do with sensory-motor integration.
我认为所有的工具都与感觉运动整合有关。
Controlling what you hear with what you output in a thoughtful, controlled way helps reduce the stuttering.
以深思熟虑、可控的方式控制你听到的内容和你输出的内容有助于减少口吃。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Texting is a very, very interesting evolution of language.
短信是一种非常非常有趣的语言演变。
I wonder sometimes whether or not we are getting less proficient at speech because we are not required to write and think in complete sentences.
有时我想知道我们是否在言语方面变得不那么熟练，因为我们不需要用完整的句子来写作和思考。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
What do you think is happening to language?
您认为语言正在发生什么变化？
Are we getting better at speaking?
我们的说话能力有进步吗？
Worse at speaking?
说话能力更差？
And what do you think the role of things like texting and tweeting and shorthand communication, hashtagging, what's that doing to the way that our brains work?
你认为短信、推特、速记通讯、主题标签等事物的作用是什么？它们对我们大脑的工作方式有何影响？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Texting actually has allowed for more rapid communication amongst people.
短信实际上使人与人之间的沟通更加快捷。
It's more like a use it or lose it kind of a thing with the brain.
这更像是一种使用或失去大脑的事情。
The more you use a particular brain region or circuit, the more enhanced.
您使用特定大脑区域或回路的次数越多，增强的效果就越多。
It's like a muscle.
它就像一块肌肉。
The more you exercise it, the more healthier it is, the bigger it becomes, and the more space it takes, and the more you lose something else.
你锻炼得越多，它就越健康，它就变得越大，占用的空间就越大，你失去的东西就越多。
So I think texting is not decreasing the speech prowess or the intellectual prowess of speech.
所以我认为发短信并不会降低演讲能力或演讲的智力能力。
It's converting it and using it a lot in a different way, in a way that may not be as rich in regular writing, because you can only communicate so much nuance in short-term writing.
它正在以不同的方式转换和使用它，这种方式在常规写作中可能不那么丰富，因为你只能在短期写作中传达如此多的细微差别。
But whatever is being done, you got people texting hours and hours and hours on the phone, so your thumb circuit is going to get pretty big, actually.
但无论做什么，人们都会花好几个小时打电话发短信，所以实际上，你的拇指电路会变得相当大。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
For those listening who are interested in getting better at speaking and understanding languages, are there any tools that you recommend?
对于那些有兴趣提高口语和理解语言能力的听众，您有推荐的工具吗？
Should kids learn how to read hard books and simple books.
孩子们应该学习如何阅读困难的书和简单的书吗？
What do you recommend?
你有什么建议吗？
Should adults learn how to do that too?
成年人也应该学习如何做到这一点吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Everyone wants to know how to keep their brain working better, so to speak.
可以这么说，每个人都想知道如何让大脑更好地运转。
But also, I think people want to be able to speak well, and people want to be able to understand well.
而且，我认为人们希望能够说得好，人们希望能够很好地理解。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
What I've discovered personally is that when I switched from pursuing a career in science from a career in dance, I thought one day I would stop dancing.
我个人发现，当我从舞蹈事业转向科学事业时，我以为有一天我会停止跳舞。
But I haven't, because I find it fulfilling for me.
但我没有，因为我发现这对我来说很充实。
And there have been periods of time, like during the pandemic, where I slowed down on dancing and so forth.
有一段时间，比如在大流行期间，我放慢了跳舞的速度等等。
And when you do that, you realize, okay, there are parts of your body where your muscle tone decreases a little bit and somewhat, or you could start to gain weight, or I somehow don't gain weight that easily, and I think it's related to my dance, if that's meaningful to your audience.
当你这样做时，你会意识到，好吧，你身体的某些部位的肌肉张力会稍微下降，或者你可能会开始增加体重，或者我不知何故不会那么容易增加体重，我认为这与我的舞蹈有关，如果这对你的观众有意义的话。
But what I found is, in science, we like to think of a separation between movement and action and cognition.
但我发现，在科学中，我们喜欢将运动、行动和认知分开。
And there is a separation between perception and production.
感知和生产之间存在分离。
Cognition being perception, production being movement.
认知是感知，生产是运动。
But if the speech pathways is next to the movement pathways, what I discover is by dancing, it is helping me think.
但如果言语通路与运动通路相邻，我发现通过跳舞，它可以帮助我思考。
It is helping keeping my brain fresh.
它有助于让我的大脑保持新鲜。
It's not just moving my muscles.
这不仅仅是移动我的肌肉。
I'm moving or using the circuitry in my brain to control a whole big body.
我正在移动或使用大脑中的电路来控制整个大身体。
You need a lot of brain tissue to do that.
你需要大量的脑组织才能做到这一点。
And so I argue, if you want to stay cognitively intact into your old age, you better be moving, and you better be doing it consistently, whether it's dancing, walking, running, and also practicing speech, oratory speech and so forth, or singing, is controlling the brain circuits that are moving your facial musculature, and it's going to keep your cognitive circuits also in tune.
所以我认为，如果你想在晚年保持认知完整，你最好多运动，而且最好坚持不懈地做，无论是跳舞、散步、跑步，还是练习演讲、演讲等，或者唱歌，都在控制移动你的面部肌肉组织的大脑回路，它也会让你的认知回路保持协调。
And I'm convinced of that from my own personal experience.
我从自己的个人经历中确信这一点。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
This has been an incredible conversation and opportunity for me to learn.
这对我来说是一次令人难以置信的对话和学习机会。
I know I speak for a tremendous number of people when I just really want to say thank you for joining us today.
我知道我代表了很多人，我真的很想说谢谢你们今天加入我们。
You are incredibly busy.
你非常忙。
It's clear from your description of your science and your knowledge base that you are involved in a huge number of things.
从您对您的科学和知识库的描述中可以清楚地看出您参与了大量的事情。
Very busy, so thank you for taking the time to speak to all of us.
非常忙碌，所以感谢您抽出时间与我们所有人交谈。
Thank you for the work that you're doing.
感谢您所做的工作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for inviting me here to get the word out to the community of what's going on in the science world.
感谢您邀请我来到这里，向社区介绍科学界正在发生的事情。
Dr. Erich Jarvis:
埃里希·贾维斯博士：
Well, we're honored and very grateful too, Eric.
嗯，我们很荣幸，也非常感激，埃里克。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're welcome.
不客气。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
Saying how you feel out loud is terrifying, but that's what Hinge's new free audiobook, "No Ordinary Love," is all about.
大声说出你的感受是很可怕的，但这就是 Hinge 的新免费有声读物“No Ordinary Love”的全部内容。
It's a collection of real love stories about five couples that met on Hinge.
这是一本关于五对在 Hinge 上相识的情侣的真实爱情故事的合集。
The stories are written and read by Tembi Locklear, Nicola Dinan, Curtis Garner, Raven Smith, and Ruthie Thorpe.
这些故事由坦比·洛克利尔、尼古拉·迪南、柯蒂斯·加纳、雷文·史密斯和露丝·索普撰写和朗读。
I, Hunter Harris, wrote and read the foreword.
我，亨特·哈里斯，撰写并阅读了前言。
The audiobook's out now.
有声读物现在已经出来了。
Give it a listen.
听一下。