Essentials: The Biology of Taste Perception & Sugar Craving | Dr. Charles Zuker
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials, where we revisit past episodes for the most potent and actionable science-based tools for mental health, physical health, and performance.
欢迎来到 Huberman Lab Essentials，在这里我们回顾过去的剧集，寻找针对心理健康、身体健康和表现的最有效、最可操作的基于科学的工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Charles Zuker.
现在我与查尔斯·祖克博士进行讨论。
Charles, thank you so much for joining me today.
查尔斯，非常感谢你今天加入我的行列。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My pleasure.
我很高兴。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
I want to ask you about many things related to taste and gustatory perception, but maybe to start off, and because you've worked on a number of different topics in neuroscience, not just taste, how should the world and people think about perception, how it's different from sensation, and what leads to our experience of life in terms of vision, hearing, taste, et cetera?
我想问您有关味觉和味觉知觉的许多问题，但也许首先，因为您研究了神经科学中的许多不同主题，而不仅仅是味觉，世界和人们应该如何思考知觉，它与感觉有何不同，以及是什么导致了我们在视觉、听觉、味觉等方面的生活体验？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The world is made of real things.
世界是由真实的事物组成的。
This here is a glass, and this is a cord, and this is a microphone.
这是一个玻璃杯，这是一根绳子，这是一个麦克风。
But the brain is only made of neurons that only understand electrical signals.
但大脑仅由只能理解电信号的神经元组成。
So how do you transform that reality into nothing that electrical signals that now need to represent the world?
那么，如何将现实转变为现在需要代表世界的电信号呢？
And that process is what we can operationally define as perception.
这个过程我们可以在操作上定义为感知。
In the senses, let's say olfactory, odor, taste, vision, we can very straightforwardly separate detection from perception.
在感官方面，比如说嗅觉、气味、味觉、视觉，我们可以非常直接地将检测与感知分开。
Detection is what happens when you take a sugar molecule, you put it in your tongue, and then a set of specific cells now sense that sugar molecule.
检测是当您取出一个糖分子，将其放入舌头中时发生的事情，然后一组特定的细胞就会感知到该糖分子。
That's detection.
这就是检测。
You haven't perceived anything yet.
你还没有察觉到任何事情。
That is just your cells in your tongue interacting with this chemical.
这只是舌头中的细胞与这种化学物质相互作用。
But now that cell gets activated and sends a signal to the brain, and now detection gets transformed into perception.
但现在细胞被激活并向大脑发送信号，现在检测转化为感知。
And it's trying to understand how that happens.
它正在试图了解这是如何发生的。
That's been the maniacal drive of my entire career in neuroscience.
这是我整个神经科学职业生涯的疯狂动力。
How does the brain ultimately transform detection into perception so that it can guide actions and behaviors?
大脑最终如何将检测转化为感知，从而指导行动和行为？
So if I want to begin to explore all of these things that the brain does, I felt I have to choose a sensory system that affords some degree of simplicity in the way that the input-output relationships are put together, and in a way that still can be used to ask every one of these problems that the brain has to ultimately compute, encode, and decode.
因此，如果我想开始探索大脑所做的所有这些事情，我觉得我必须选择一种感觉系统，该系统在输入输出关系组合在一起的方式上提供一定程度的简单性，并且仍然可以用来询问大脑最终必须计算、编码和解码的每一个问题。
And what was remarkable about the taste system at the time that I began working on this is that nothing was known about the molecular basis of taste.
当我开始研究味觉系统时，人们对味觉的分子基础一无所知。
We knew that we could taste what has been usually defined as the five basic taste qualities, sweet, sour, bitter, salty, and umami.
我们知道我们可以品尝到通常定义的五种基本味觉品质：甜、酸、苦、咸和鲜。
Umami is a Japanese word that means yummy, delicious, and that's in nearly every animal species, the taste of amino acids.
鲜味是一个日语单词，意思是美味、可口，几乎所有动物物种都有氨基酸的味道。
And in humans, it's mostly associated with the taste of MSG, monosodium glutamate, one amino acid in particular.
对于人类来说，它主要与味精、味精、尤其是一种氨基酸的味道有关。
And so the beautiful thing of the system is that the lines of input are limited to five, and each of them has a predetermined meaning.
因此，该系统的美妙之处在于，输入的行数被限制为五行，并且每一行都有预定的含义。
You're born with that specific valence value for each taste.
你生来就具有每种口味的特定价值。
Sweet, umami, and low salt are attractive taste qualities.
甜、鲜味和低盐是有吸引力的口味品质。
They evoke appetitive responses.
它们会引起食欲反应。
I want to consume them.
我想吃掉它们。
And bitter and sour are innately predetermined to be aversive.
而苦味和酸味天生就让人厌恶。
In the case of bitter, it's very easy to actually look at, see them happening in animals, because the first thing you do is you stop licking, then you put a unhappy face, then you squint your eyes, and then you start gagging.
就苦味而言，很容易实际观察，看到它们发生在动物身上，因为你做的第一件事就是停止舔，然后你摆出一张不高兴的脸，然后你眯起眼睛，然后你开始作呕。
And that entire thing happens by the activation of a bitter molecule in a bitter sensing cell in your tongue.
整个过程是通过激活舌头苦味感受细胞中的苦味分子而发生的。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
It's incredible.
太不可思议了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's again, the magic of the brain, how it's able to encode and decode these extraordinary actions and behaviors in response of nothing but a simple, very unique sensory stimuli.
这又是大脑的魔力，它如何能够编码和解码这些非凡的动作和行为，只对简单、非常独特的感官刺激做出反应。
This palate of five basic tastes accommodates all the dietary needs of the organism.
这种五种基本口味的口味可以满足有机体的所有饮食需求。
Sweet, to ensure that we get the right amount of energy.
甜蜜，确保我们获得适量的能量。
Umami, to ensure that we get proteins, another essential nutrient.
鲜味，确保我们获得另一种必需营养素蛋白质。
Salt, the three appetitive ones, to ensure that we maintain our electrolyte balance.
盐，三种食欲盐，确保我们维持电解质平衡。
Bitter, to prevent the ingestion of toxic, nauseous chemicals.
苦，防止摄入有毒、令人作呕的化学物质。
Nearly all bitter-tasting things out in the wild are bad for you.
野外几乎所有苦味的东西都对你有害。
And sour, most likely to prevent the ingestion of spoiled acid, fermented foods.
而酸味，最有可能防止摄入变质的酸、发酵食品。
And that's it.
就是这样。
That is the palate that we deal with.
这就是我们要处理的味觉。
Now, of course, there's a difference between basic taste and flavor.
当然，基本味道和风味之间是有区别的。
Flavor is the whole experience.
味道就是整个体验。
Flavor is the combination of multiple tastes coming together Together with smell, with texture, with temperature, with the look of it, that gives you what you and I would call the full sensory experience.
风味是多种味道的结合，包括气味、质地、温度和外观，给您带来你我所说的完整的感官体验。
But we scientists need to reduce the problem into its basic elements so we can begin to break it apart before we put it back together.
但我们科学家需要将问题简化为其基本要素，以便我们可以在将其重新组合在一起之前开始将其分解。
So when we think about the sense of taste and we try to figure out how these lines of information go from your tongue to your brain and how they signal and how they get integrated and how they trigger all these different behaviors, we look at them as individual qualities.
因此，当我们思考味觉并试图弄清楚这些信息线如何从舌头传递到大脑、它们如何发出信号、如何整合以及如何触发所有这些不同的行为时，我们将它们视为个体品质。
So we give the animal sweet, or we give them a bitter, we give them sour.
所以我们给动物甜的，或者我们给他们苦的，我们给他们酸的。
We avoid mixes.
我们避免混合。
Think of it as lines of information.
将其视为信息线。
Separate lines.
分开的线。
Like the keys of a piano.
就像钢琴的琴键一样。
Sweet, sour, bitter, salty, umami.
甜、酸、苦、咸、鲜。
You play the key and you activate that one chord, and that one chord, in the case of a piano, leads to a note, a tune, and in the case of taste, leads to an action and a behavior.
你弹奏琴键，激活一个和弦，对于钢琴来说，这个和弦会产生一个音符、一首曲子，而对于品味来说，这个和弦会导致一种动作和行为。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
If you're a regular listener of the Huberman Lab podcast, you've no doubt heard me talk about the vitamin mineral probiotic drink AG1.
如果您是 Huberman Lab 播客的常客，您无疑听过我谈论过维生素矿物质益生菌饮料 AG1。
And if you've been on the fence about it, now's an awesome time to give it a try.
如果您一直对此持观望态度，那么现在正是尝试的好时机。
For the next few weeks, AG1 is giving away a full supplement package with your first subscription to AG1.
在接下来的几周内，AG1 将在您首次订阅 AG1 时赠送完整的补充包。
They're giving away a free bottle of vitamin D3+K2, a bottle of omega-3 fish oil capsules, and a sample pack of the new sleep formula, AGZ, which, by the way, is now the only sleep supplement I take.
他们免费赠送一瓶维生素 D3+K2、一瓶 omega-3 鱼油胶囊和新睡眠配方 AGZ 样品包，顺便说一下，它是我现在唯一服用的睡眠补充剂。
It's fantastic.
太棒了。
My sleep on AGZ is out of this world good.
我在 AGZ 的睡眠质量非常好。
AGZ is a drink, so it eliminates the need to take a lot of pills.
AGZ 是一种饮料，因此无需服用大量药片。
It tastes great, and like I said, it has me sleeping incredibly well, waking up more refreshed than ever.
它味道好极了，就像我说的，它让我睡得非常好，醒来时比以往任何时候都精神焕发。
I absolutely love it.
我非常喜欢它。
Again, this is a limited time offer, so make sure to go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get started today.
再次强调，这是限时优惠，因此请务必立即访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 开始。
If you would, describe the sequence of neural events leading to a perceptual event of taste.
如果愿意的话，请描述导致味觉感知事件的神经事件序列。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We have taste buds distributed in various parts of the tongue.
我们的味蕾分布在舌头的各个部位。
So there is a map on the distribution of taste buds.
所以就有了味蕾分布图。
But each taste bud has around 100 taste receptor cells, and those taste receptor cells can be of five types: sweet, sour, bitter, salty, or umami.
但每个味蕾大约有 100 个味觉感受器细胞，这些味觉感受器细胞可以有五种类型：甜、酸、苦、咸或鲜。
And for the most part, all taste buds have the representation of all five taste qualities.
在大多数情况下，所有味蕾都代表所有五种味觉品质。
Now, there is no question that there is a slight bias for some tastes.
现在，毫无疑问，某些口味存在轻微的偏见。
Like bitter is particularly enrich at the very back of your tongue, and there is a teleological basis for that, actually a biological basis for that.
就像苦味在你舌头的后部特别丰富一样，这是有目的论基础的，实际上是有生物学基础的。
That's the last line of defense before you swallow something bad.
这是你吞下坏东西之前的最后一道防线。
And so let's make sure that the very back of your tongue has plenty of these bad news receptors, so that if they get activated, you can trigger a gagging reflex and get rid of this that otherwise may kill you.
因此，让我们确保你的舌头后部有大量的坏消息受体，这样，如果它们被激活，你就可以触发呕吐反射，并摆脱它，否则可能会杀死你。
The important thing is that after the receptors for these five, the detectors, the molecules that sense sweet, sour, bitter, salt, umami, these are receptors, proteins found on the surface of taste receptor cells that interact with these chemicals.
重要的是，在这五种受体之后，检测器，即感知甜、酸、苦、盐、鲜味的分子，这些是受体，是在味觉受体细胞表面发现的与这些化学物质相互作用的蛋白质。
And once they interact, then they trigger the cascade of events, biochemical events inside the cell that now sends an electrical signal that says, "There is sweet here," or, "There is salt here." Let's compare and contrast sweet and bitter as we follow their lines from the tongue to the brain.
一旦它们相互作用，就会触发一连串的事件，细胞内的生化事件现在会发出一个电信号，说“这里有甜的”或“这里有盐”。让我们沿着从舌头到大脑的路线来比较和对比甜味和苦味。
So the first thing is that the two evoke diametrically opposed behaviors.
所以首先，两者会引发截然相反的行为。
If we have to come up with two sensory experience that represent polar opposites, it will be sweet and bitter.
如果我们必须拿出两种代表截然相反的感官体验，那就是甜与苦。
So then the signals, if we follow now these two lines, they're really like two separate keys at the two ends of this keyboard.
那么信号，如果我们现在遵循这两行，它们实际上就像键盘两端的两个单独的键。
And you press one key and you activate this chord, so you activate the sweet cells throughout your oral cavity, and they all converge into a group of sweet neurons in the next station, which is still outside the brain, is one of the taste ganglia.
你按下一个键，你就激活了这个和弦，这样你就激活了整个口腔的甜味细胞，它们都汇聚成下一站的一组甜味神经元，这个神经元仍然在大脑之外，是味觉神经节之一。
These are the neurons that innervate your tongue and the oral cavity.
这些是支配舌头和口腔的神经元。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Where do they sit approximately?
他们大约坐在哪里？
Are they-
他们是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Around there.
在那儿附近。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Right here around the lymph nodes, more or less.
或多或少就在淋巴结周围。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You got it.
你明白了。
And there are two main ganglia that innervate the vast majority of all taste buds in the oral cavity.
有两个主要的神经节支配着口腔中绝大多数的味蕾。
And then from there, that sweet signal goes onto the brain stem.
然后从那里，甜蜜的信号进入脑干。
The brain stem is the entry of the body into the brain, and there are different areas of the brain stem, and there are different groups of neurons in the brain stem, and there's this unique area in a unique topographically defined location in the rostral side of the brain stem that receives all of the taste input.
脑干是身体进入大脑的入口，脑干有不同的区域，脑干中有不同的神经元组，在脑干的嘴侧一个独特的地形定义位置有一个独特的区域，它接收所有的味觉输入。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
A very dense area of the brain.
大脑中非常密集的区域。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A very rich area of the brain, exactly.
确切地说，是大脑中非常丰富的区域。
And from there, the sweet signal goes to this other area higher up on the brain stem, and then it goes through a number of stations where that sweet signal goes from sweet neuron to sweet neuron to sweet neuron to eventually get to your cortex.
从那里，甜蜜信号到达脑干较高的另一个区域，然后它经过许多站点，在那里甜蜜信号从甜蜜神经元到甜蜜神经元，最终到达你的皮层。
And once it gets to your taste cortex, that's where meaning is imposed into that signal.
一旦它到达你的味觉皮层，信号就被赋予了意义。
It's then, this is what the data suggests, that now you can identify this as a sweet stimuli.
然后，这就是数据所表明的，现在你可以将其识别为甜蜜的刺激。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
And how quickly does that all happen?
这一切发生的速度有多快？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The timescale of the nervous system, it's Fast, yeah?
神经系统的时间尺度，很快，是吗？
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Within less than a second.
不到一秒的时间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And in fact, we can demonstrate this because we can stick electrodes at each of these stations.
事实上，我们可以证明这一点，因为我们可以在每个站点上粘贴电极。
You deliver the stimuli, and within a fraction of a second, you see now the response in these following stations.
您发出刺激后，不到一秒的时间，您就会看到以下站点的响应。
Now it gets to the cortex.
现在它到达了皮质。
And now in there, you impose meaning to that taste.
现在在那里，你给那种味道赋予了意义。
There is an area of your brain that represents the taste of sweet in taste cortex, and a different area that represents the taste of bitter.
大脑的味觉皮层中有一个区域代表甜味，而另一个区域则代表苦味。
In a sense, there is a topographic map of these taste qualities inside your brain.
从某种意义上说，你的大脑中有一张这些味觉品质的地形图。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
How much plasticity do you think there is there, and in particular across the lifespan?
您认为可塑性有多大，特别是在整个生命周期中？
Because I think one of the most salient examples of this is that kids don't seem to like certain vegetables, but they all are hardwired to like sweet tastes.
因为我认为最明显的例子之一是孩子们似乎不喜欢某些蔬菜，但他们都天生喜欢甜味。
And yet you could also imagine that one of the reasons why they may eventually grow to incorporate vegetables is because of some knowledge that vegetables might be-
然而你也可以想象，它们最终可能种植蔬菜的原因之一是因为一些知识表明蔬菜可能是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Good for you
对你有好处
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
...
...
better for them.
对他们更好。
Is there a change in the receptors that can explain the transition from wanting to avoid vegetables to being willing to eat vegetables, simply in childhood to early development?
受体的变化是否可以解释从想要避免蔬菜到愿意吃蔬菜的转变，从童年到早期发育？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So taste, we just told you that's predetermined hardwire.
所以品味，我们只是告诉你这是预定的硬线。
But predetermined hardwire doesn't mean that it's not modulated by learning or experience.
但预定的硬连线并不意味着它不受学习或经验的调节。
It only means that you are born liking sweet and disliking bitter.
这只说明你生来喜甜不喜苦。
And we have many examples of plasticity.
我们有很多可塑性的例子。
Coffee, it has an associated gain to the system, and that gain to the system, that positive valance that emerges out of that negative signal, is sufficient to create that positive association.
咖啡，它对系统有相关的增益，而对系统的增益，即从负面信号中产生的正价，足以创造这种积极的关联。
In the case of coffee, of course, it's caffeine activating a whole group of neurotransmitter systems that give you that high associated with coffee.
当然，就咖啡而言，咖啡因会激活一整组神经递质系统，使您与咖啡产生高度关联。
So yes, this taste system is changeable, it's malleable, and is subjected to learning and experience.
所以，是的，这种品味系统是可变的、可塑的，并且需要学习和经验。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Can you imagine a sort of system by which people could leverage that?
你能想象一种人们可以利用它的系统吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Where does this desensitizing happens, that's the term that we use.
这种脱敏发生在哪里，这就是我们使用的术语。
I think it happening at multiple stations.
我认为这发生在多个车站。
It's happening at the receptor level, i.e., the cells in your tongue that are sensing that sugar.
它发生在受体水平，即舌头中感知糖的细胞。
As you activate this receptor, and it's triggering activity after activity after activity, eventually you exhaust the receptor.
当你激活这个受体时，它会一次又一次地触发活动，最终你会耗尽受体。
Again, I'm using terms which are extraordinarily loose.
再次强调，我使用的术语非常宽松。
The receptor gets to a point where it undergoes a set of changes, chemical changes, where it now signals far less efficiently, or it even gets removed from the surface of the cell.
受体到达一定程度后会经历一系列变化、化学变化，此时它发出信号的效率要低得多，或者甚至会从细胞表面被移除。
And that is a huge site of this modulation.
这是这种调制的一个巨大场所。
And then the next, I believe, is the integrated, again, loss of signaling that happens by continuous activation of the circuit at each of these different neural stations, from the tongue to the ganglia, from the ganglia to the first station in the brain stem, a second station in the brain stem, to the thalamus, then to the cortex.
然后，我相信，接下来是信号的整合，再次丢失，这是通过连续激活每个不同神经站的电路而发生的，从舌头到神经节，从神经节到脑干的第一个站，脑干的第二个站，到丘脑，然后到皮质。
So there are multiple steps that this signal is traveling.
因此，该信号的传输过程有多个步骤。
Now, you might say, "If this is a labeled line, why do you need to have so many stations?" And that's because the taste system is so important to ensure that you get what you need to survive, that it has to be subjected to modulation by the internal state.
现在，您可能会说，“如果这是一条标记线路，为什么需要有这么多车站？”这是因为味觉系统对于确保你获得生存所需的东西非常重要，因此它必须受到内部状态的调节。
And each of these nodes provides a new site to give it plasticity and modulation.
这些节点中的每一个都提供了一个新的站点，以赋予其可塑性和调制性。
I'm going to give you one example of how the internal state changes the way the taste system works.
我将给你举一个例子，说明内部状态如何改变味觉系统的工作方式。
Salt is very appetitive at low concentrations, and that's because we need it.
盐在低浓度下非常有食欲，那是因为我们需要它。
Our electrolyte balance requires salt.
我们的电解质平衡需要盐。
Every one of the neurons uses salt as the most important of the ions, with potassium to ensure that you can transfer these electrical signals within and between neurons.
每个神经元都使用盐作为最重要的离子，并使用钾来确保可以在神经元内部和神经元之间传递这些电信号。
But at high concentrations, let's say ocean water, is incredibly aversive.
但在高浓度下，比如说海水，是令人难以置信的令人厌恶。
And we all know this because we've gone to the ocean, and then when you get it in your mouth, it's not that great.
我们都知道这一点，因为我们已经去了大海，然后当你把它放进嘴里时，它就没那么好了。
However, if I salt deprive you, now this incredibly high concentration of salt, one molar sodium chloride, becomes amazingly appetitive and attractive.
然而，如果我剥夺了你的盐，现在这种令人难以置信的高浓度盐，一摩尔氯化钠，会变得令人惊讶的食欲和吸引力。
What's going on in here?
这里发生了什么事？
Your tongue is telling you, "This is horrible," but your brain is telling you, "You need it." And this is what we call the modulation of the taste system by the internal state.
你的舌头告诉你，“这太可怕了”，但你的大脑告诉你，“你需要它。”这就是我们所说的内部状态对味觉系统的调节。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, LMNT.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 LMNT。
LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.
LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。
That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium in the correct amounts, but no sugar.
这意味着电解质、钠、镁和钾的含量正确，但不含糖。
Proper hydration is critical for optimal brain and body function.
适当的水合作用对于大脑和身体的最佳功能至关重要。
Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish cognitive and physical performance.
即使是轻微程度的脱水也会降低认知和身体表现。
It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes.
获得充足的电解质也很重要。
The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are vital for functioning of all the cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells.
电解质（钠、镁和钾）对于体内所有细胞（尤其是神经元或神经细胞）的功能至关重要。
Drinking LMNT dissolved in water makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes.
饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT 可以很容易地确保您获得足够的水分和电解质。
To make sure that I'm getting proper amounts of hydration and electrolytes, I dissolve one packet of LMNT in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I first wake up in the morning, and I drink that basically first thing in the morning.
为了确保我获得适量的水合作用和电解质，当我早上第一次醒来时，我将一包 LMNT 溶解在大约 16 至 32 盎司的水中，并且我基本上早上第一件事就是喝它。
I'll also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes.
我还会在进行任何体育锻炼时饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT，尤其是在炎热的日子里，当我大量出汗并失去水和电解质时。
LMNT has a bunch of great-tasting flavors.
LMNT 有很多美味的口味。
I love the raspberry.
我喜欢覆盆子。
I love the citrus flavor.
我喜欢柑橘味。
Right now, LMNT has a limited edition lemonade flavor that is absolutely delicious.
现在LMNT推出了限量版柠檬水口味，绝对美味。
I hate to say that I love one more than all the others, but this lemonade flavor is right up there with my favorite other one, which is raspberry or watermelon.
我不想说我比其他所有口味都更喜欢其中一种，但这种柠檬水口味与我最喜欢的另一种口味（覆盆子或西瓜）不相上下。
Again, I can't pick just one flavor.
再说一次，我不能只选择一种口味。
I love them all.
我爱他们所有人。
If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman, spelled drinklmnt.com/huberman, to claim a free LMNT sample pack with a purchase of any LMNT drink mix.
如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman（拼写为 Drinklmnt.com/huberman），购买任意 LMNT 混合饮料即可领取免费 LMNT 样品包。
Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.
再次强调，请访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman 索取免费样品包。
I'd love for you to talk about the aspects of gut-brain signaling that drive or change our perceptions and behaviors that are completely beneath our awareness.
我很想让你谈谈肠脑信号传导的各个方面，这些信号驱动或改变我们完全意识不到的感知和行为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes.
是的。
The brain needs to monitor the state of every one of our organs.
大脑需要监控我们每一个器官的状态。
It has to do it.
它必须这样做。
This is the only way that the brain can ensure that every one of those organs are working together in a way that we have healthy physiology.
这是大脑确保每个器官以健康的生理机能方式协同工作的唯一方法。
This is a two-way highway, where the brain is not only monitoring, but is now modulating back what the body needs to do.
这是一条双向高速公路，大脑不仅在监控，而且在调节身体需要做什么。
And that includes all the way from monitoring the frequency of heartbeats and the way that inspiration and aspirations in the breathing cycle operate, to what happens when you ingest sugar and fat.
这包括从监测心跳频率、呼吸周期中吸气和呼气的运作方式，到摄入糖和脂肪时会发生什么。
Let me give you an example.
让我举个例子。
So Pavlov, in his classical experiments in associative conditioning, he would take a bell, he would ring the bell every time he was going to feed the dog.
所以巴甫洛夫，在他的联想条件反射的经典实验中，他会拿一个铃，每次他要喂狗的时候他都会按响铃。
Eventually, the dog learned to associate the ringing of the bell with food coming.
最终，狗学会了将铃声的响起与食物的到来联系起来。
The dog now, in the presence of the bell alone, will start to salivate.
现在，只要有铃声，狗就会开始流口水。
And we will call that, neurologically speaking, an anticipatory response.
从神经学的角度来说，我们将其称为预期反应。
Neurons in the brain that form that association now represent food is coming, and they're sending a signal to motor neurons to go into your salivary glands to squeeze them so you release saliva because you know food is coming.
大脑中形成这种联系的神经元现在代表食物即将到来，它们向运动神经元发送信号，进入你的唾液腺挤压它们，这样你就会释放唾液，因为你知道食物即将到来。
But what's even more remarkable is that those animals are also releasing insulin in response to a bell.
但更值得注意的是，这些动物也会随着铃声的反应而释放胰岛素。
Somehow, the brain created these associations, and there are neurons in your brain now that know food is coming, and send a signal somehow all the way down to your pancreas, that now it says release insulin because sugar is coming down.
不知何故，大脑创造了这些关联，现在你大脑中的神经元知道食物即将到来，并以某种方式一路向下发送信号到你的胰腺，现在它说释放胰岛素，因为糖分下降了。
Now, the main highway that is communicating the state of the body with the brain is a specific bundle of nerves which emerge from the vagal ganglia, the nodose ganglia.
现在，与大脑沟通身体状态的主要高速公路是从迷走神经节（结状神经节）发出的特定神经束。
And so it's the vagus nerve that it's innervating the majority of the organs in your body.
因此，迷走神经支配着身体的大部分器官。
It's monitoring their function, sending a signal to the brain, and now the brain going back down and saying, "This is going all right, do this," or "This is not going so well, do that."
它监视它们的功能，向大脑发送信号，然后大脑回过头来说，“一切顺利，做这个”，或者“进展不太顺利，做那个”。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
And I should point out, as you well know, every organ, spleen, pancreas, lungs-
我应该指出，正如你所知，每个器官，脾脏，胰腺，肺——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They all must be monitored.
他们都必须受到监控。
I have no doubt that diseases that we have normally associated with metabolism, physiology, and even immunity are likely to emerge as diseases, conditions, states of the brain.
我毫不怀疑，我们通常认为与新陈代谢、生理学甚至免疫有关的疾病很可能会以大脑的疾病、状况和状态的形式出现。
I don't think obesity is a disease of metabolism.
我不认为肥胖是一种新陈代谢疾病。
I believe obesity is a disease of brain circuits.
我认为肥胖是一种脑回路疾病。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
I do as well.
我也一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And so this view that we have been working on for the longest time because the molecules that we're dealing with are in the body, not in the head, led us to view, of course, these issues and problems as being one of metabolism, physiology, and so forth.
因此，我们长期以来一直在研究的这种观点是因为我们正在处理的分子位于体内，而不是头部，当然，这使我们将这些问题视为新陈代谢、生理学等问题之一。
They remain to be the carriers of the ultimate signal, but the brain ultimately appears to be the conductor of this orchestra of physiology and metabolism.
它们仍然是最终信号的载体，但大脑最终似乎是这个生理和新陈代谢管弦乐队的指挥。
Now, let's go to the gut-brain and sugar.
现在，让我们来看看肠脑和糖。
The vagus nerve is made out of many thousands of fibers that make this gigantic bundle, and it's likely, as we're speaking, that each of these fibers, they carry meaning that's associated with their specific task.
迷走神经是由成千上万的纤维组成的，这些纤维构成了这个巨大的神经束，正如我们所说，这些纤维中的每一个很可能都携带着与其特定任务相关的意义。
This group of fibers is telling the brain about the state of your heart.
这组纤维告诉大脑您的心脏状态。
This group of fiber is telling the brain about the state of your gut.
这组纤维告诉大脑肠道的状态。
This is telling your brain about its nutritional state.
这是在告诉您的大脑其营养状况。
They are, again, to make the same simple example, the keys of this piano.
他们再次举同样简单的例子，这架钢琴的琴键。
Now, the reason this is relevant, because the magic of this gut-brain axis is the fact that you have these thousands of fibers really doing different functions.
现在，这是相关的，因为肠-脑轴的神奇之处在于，你拥有这数千条纤维，它们确实发挥着不同的功能。
Okay, let me tell you about the gut-brain axis and our insatiable appetite for sugar.
好吧，让我告诉你肠脑轴和我们对糖的贪得无厌的胃口。
This is work of my own laboratory that began long ago when we discovered the sweet receptors.
这是我自己实验室的工作，很久以前我们发现甜味受体时就开始了。
You can now engineer mice that lack these receptors.
您现在可以改造缺乏这些受体的小鼠。
So in essence, these animals will be unable to taste sweet.
所以从本质上讲，这些动物将无法尝到甜味。
And if you give a normal mouse a bottle containing sweet, and we're going to put either sugar or an artificial sweetener.
如果你给一只普通的老鼠一个装有甜食的瓶子，我们就会放糖或人造甜味剂。
All right?
好的？
They both are sweet.
他们俩都很甜蜜。
They have slightly different tastes, but that's simply because artificial sweeteners have some off tastes.
它们的味道略有不同，但这只是因为人造甜味剂有一些异味。
But as far as the sweet receptor is concerned, they both activate the same receptor, trigger the same signal.
但就甜味受体而言，它们都激活相同的受体，触发相同的信号。
And if you give an animal an option of a bottle containing sugar or a sweetener versus water, this animal will drink 10 to one from the bottle containing sweet.
如果你给动物一个选择，是含糖或甜味剂的瓶子还是水，那么该动物会以 10 比 1 的比例喝含糖或甜味剂的瓶子。
That's the taste system.
这就是味觉系统。
Animal goes, samples each one, licks a couple of licks, and then says, "Uh-uh, that's the one I want because it's appetitive and because I love it." Now, we're going to take the mice and we're going to genetically engineer it to remove the sweet receptors.
动物走过去，尝了尝，舔了几口，然后说：“呃呃，这就是我想要的，因为它很有食欲，而且我喜欢它。”现在，我们要对小鼠进行基因改造，去除甜味受体。
So these mice no longer have in their oral cavity any sensors that can detect sweetness, be that sugar molecule, be it an artificial sweetener, be it anything else that tastes sweet.
因此，这些小鼠的口腔中不再有任何可以检测甜味的传感器，无论是糖分子，还是人造甜味剂，无论是其他尝起来甜的东西。
And if you give these mice an option between Sweet versus water, it will drink equally well from both because it cannot tell them apart, because it doesn't have the receptors for sweet, so that sweet bottle tastes just like water.
如果你让这些老鼠在甜水和水之间做出选择，它们会同样好地喝这两种饮料，因为它无法区分它们，因为它没有甜味受体，所以甜瓶子的味道就像水一样。
But if I keep the mouse in that cage for the next 48 hours, something extraordinary happens when I come 48 hours later.
但如果我在接下来的 48 小时内将老鼠关在笼子里，48 小时后我来时会发生一些不寻常的事情。
That mouse is drinking almost exclusively from the sugar bottle.
那只老鼠几乎只喝糖瓶里的水。
During those 48 hours, the mouse learn that there is something in that bottle that makes me feel good, and that is the bottle I want to consume.
在这 48 小时内，老鼠得知瓶子里有某种东西让我感觉良好，那就是我想喝的瓶子。
And that is the fundamental basis of our unquenchable desire and our craving for sugar, and is mediated by the gut-brain axis.
这是我们无法抑制的欲望和对糖的渴望的根本基础，并且是由肠脑轴介导的。
So we reason if this is true and it's the gut-brain axis that's driving sugar preference, then there should be a group of neurons in the brain that are responding to post-ingestive sugar.
因此，我们推断，如果这是真的，并且是肠脑轴驱动了对糖的偏好，那么大脑中应该有一组神经元对摄入后的糖做出反应。
And lo and behold, we identify a group of neurons in the brain that does this, and these neurons receive their input directly from the gut-brain axis.
你瞧，我们在大脑中识别出了一组执行此操作的神经元，这些神经元直接从肠脑轴接收输入。
And so what's happening is that sugar is recognized normally by the tongue, activates an appetitive response.
所以发生的情况是，舌头正常地识别糖，激活食欲反应。
Now you ingest it, and now it activates a selective group of cells in your intestines that now send a signal to the brain via the vagal ganglia that says, "I got what I need." The tongue doesn't know that you got what you need.
现在你摄入它，它会激活你肠道中的一组选择性细胞，这些细胞现在通过迷走神经节向大脑发送信号，说：“我得到了我需要的东西。”舌头不知道你得到了你需要的东西。
It only knows that you tasted it.
它只知道你尝过它的味道。
This knows that it got to the point that it's going to be used, which is the gut.
这个知道到了要用的地步，这就是肠道。
And now it sends the signal to now reinforce the consumption of this thing because this is the one that I needed, sugar, source of energy.
现在它发出了信号，要求加强对这个东西的消耗，因为这是我需要的，糖，能量来源。
So these are gut cells that recognize the sugar molecule-
所以这些是识别糖分子的肠道细胞-
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
I see
我明白了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
send a signal, and that signal is received by the vagal neuron directly.
发送信号，该信号直接被迷走神经元接收。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Got it.
明白了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this sends a signal through the gut-brain axis to the cell bodies of these neurons in the vagal ganglia, and from there to the brain stem to now trigger the preference for sugar.
这会通过肠脑轴向迷走神经节中这些神经元的细胞体发送信号，并从那里到脑干，从而触发对糖的偏好。
You see, you want the brain to know that you had successful ingestion and breakdown of whatever you consume into the building blocks of life.
你看，你希望大脑知道你已经成功摄入并分解了你摄入的任何东西，形成了生命的组成部分。
And glucose, amino acids, fat.
还有葡萄糖、氨基酸、脂肪。
And so you want to make sure that once they are in the form that intestines can now absorb them is where you get the signal back saying, "This is what I want." Okay?
因此，您要确保一旦它们形成肠道可以吸收它们的形式，您就可以收到信号说：“这就是我想要的。”好的？
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。
Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.
去年，在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我成为了 Function 成员。
Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health.
Function 提供 100 多项高级实验室测试，为您提供整个身体健康状况的关键快照。
This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more.
此快照为您提供有关心脏健康、激素健康、免疫功能、营养水平等方面的见解。
Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas.
Function 不仅提供对您的身心健康至关重要的 100 多种生物标记物的测试，而且还分析这些结果并提供相关领域专家的顶级医生的见解。
For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood.
例如，在我第一次使用 Function 进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量升高。
Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification.
功能不仅帮助我发现了这一点，还为我提供了如何最好地降低汞含量的见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼摄入量，我一直在吃大量金枪鱼，同时还努力多吃绿叶蔬菜并补充 NAC、N-乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒。
And I should say, by taking a second Function test, that approach worked.
我应该说，通过进行第二次功能测试，这种方法奏效了。
Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important.
全面的血液检测至关重要。
There are so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test.
有很多与您的心理和身体健康相关的事情只能通过血液检查来检测。
The problem is blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated.
问题是血液检测一直非常昂贵且复杂。
In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost.
相比之下，Function 的简单性和成本水平给我留下了深刻的印象。
It is very affordable.
这是非常实惠的。
As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.
因此，我决定加入他们的科学顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。
If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Function，可以访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。
Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman Podcast listeners.
Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等候名单，但他们正在为 Huberman 播客听众提供早期访问服务。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.
同样，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now, let me just take it one step further.
现在，让我更进一步。
This now sugar molecules activates this unique gut-brain circuit that now drives the development of our preference for sugar.
这种糖分子激活了这种独特的肠脑回路，从而推动了我们对糖的偏好的发展。
A key element of this circuit is that the sensors in the gut that recognize the sugar do not recognize artificial sweeteners.
该电路的一个关键要素是肠道中识别糖的传感器无法识别人造甜味剂。
It's a completely different molecule that only recognizes the glucose molecule, not artificial sweeteners.
这是一种完全不同的分子，只识别葡萄糖分子，而不识别人造甜味剂。
This has a profound impact on the effect of ultimately artificial sweeteners in curbing our appetite, our craving, our insatiable desire for sugar.
这对最终人造甜味剂抑制我们的食欲、渴望和对糖的贪得无厌的欲望产生了深远的影响。
Since they don't activate the gut-brain axis, they'll never satisfy the craving for sugar like sugar does.
由于它们不会激活肠脑轴，因此它们永远不会像糖那样满足对糖的渴望。
We have a mega problem with overconsumption of sugar and fat.
我们面临糖和脂肪过度消耗的大问题。
We're facing a unique time in our evolution where diseases of malnutrition are due to overnutrition.
我们正面临着进化过程中的一个独特时期，营养不良疾病是由于营养过剩造成的。
Historically, diseases of malnutritions have always been linked to undernutrition.
从历史上看，营养不良疾病一直与营养不良有关。
But I want to just go back to the notion of these brain centers that are ultimately the ones that are being activated by these essential nutrients.
但我想回到这些大脑中心的概念，这些大脑中心最终是被这些必需营养素激活的。
So sugar, fat, and amino acids are building blocks Of our diets.
因此，糖、脂肪和氨基酸是我们饮食的组成部分。
And this is across all animal species.
这适用于所有动物物种。
So it's not unreasonable then to assume that dedicated brain circuits would have evolved to ensure their recognition, their ingestion, and the reinforcement that that is what I need.
因此，假设专用的大脑回路会进化来确保它们的识别、摄取以及我所需要的强化，这并不是没有道理的。
And indeed, animals evolve these two systems.
事实上，动物进化出了这两个系统。
One is the taste system that allows you to recognize them and trigger these predetermined, hardwired, immediate responses.
其中之一是味觉系统，它可以让你识别它们并触发这些预先确定的、固有的、即时的反应。
Yes?
是的？
"Oh my God, this is so delicious.
“天哪，这太好吃了。
It's fatty." Or umami recognizing amino acids.
是胖了。”或鲜味识别氨基酸。
So that's the liking pathway.
这就是喜欢的途径。
But in the wisdom of evolution, that's good but doesn't quite do it.
但从进化的智慧来看，这很好，但还不够。
You want to make sure that these things get to the place where they're needed.
您要确保这些东西到达需要它们的地方。
They are needed in your intestines, where they are going to be absorbed as the nutrients that will support life.
您的肠道需要它们，它们将作为维持生命的营养物质被吸收。
And the brain wants to know this.
大脑想知道这一点。
Highly processed foods are hijacking, co-opting these circuits in a way that it would have never happened in nature.
高度加工的食品正在以一种在自然界中从未发生过的方式劫持和利用这些回路。
And then we not only find these things appetitive and palatable, but in addition, we are continuously reinforcing the wanting in a way that, "Oh my God, this is so great.
然后，我们不仅发现这些东西令人胃口大开、可口，而且，我们不断地强化这种渴望，“天哪，这太棒了。
What do I feel like eating?
我想吃什么？
Let me have more of this."
让我再多吃点这个吧。”
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Well, this is why I think a lot of data are now starting to support the idea that while indeed the laws of thermodynamics apply, calories ingested versus calories burned is a very real thing, right?
好吧，这就是为什么我认为现在很多数据开始支持这样一个观点：虽然热力学定律确实适用，但摄入的卡路里与燃烧的卡路里是一个非常真实的事情，对吧？
The appetite for certain foods and the wanting and the liking are phenomena of the nervous system, brain and gut, as you've beautifully described, and that that changes over time depending on how we are receiving these nutrients.
正如您所描述的那样，对某些食物的食欲以及想要和喜欢是神经系统、大脑和肠道的现象，并且随着时间的推移而变化，具体取决于我们如何接收这些营养物质。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Understanding these circuits is giving us important insights on how, ultimately and hopefully, we can improve human health and make a meaningful difference.
了解这些回路可以为我们提供重要的见解，让我们最终了解如何改善人类健康并做出有意义的改变。
Now, it's very easy to try to connect the dots A to B, B to C, C to D, and I think there's a lot more complexity to it.
现在，尝试将 A 到 B、B 到 C、C 到 D 点连接起来非常容易，但我认为这要复杂得多。
But I do think that the lessons that are emerging out of understanding how these circuits operate can ultimately inform how we deal with our diets in a way that we avoid what we're facing now as a society.
但我确实认为，从理解这些回路如何运作中得到的教训最终可以告诉我们如何处理我们的饮食，从而避免我们现在作为一个社会所面临的问题。
It's nuts that overnutrition happens to be such a prevalent problem.
营养过剩竟然成为如此普遍的问题，真是太疯狂了。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And I also think the training of people who are thinking about metabolic science and metabolic disease is largely divorced from the training of the neuroscientist, and vice versa.
我还认为，对思考代谢科学和代谢疾病的人的培训在很大程度上与神经科学家的培训脱节，反之亦然。
No one field is to blame.
任何一个领域都不应受到指责。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
But I fully agree that the brain is the key, or the nervous system, to be more accurate-
但我完全同意大脑是关键，或者更准确地说是神经系统——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, yeah
哦，是的
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
...
...
is one of the key overlooked features.
是被忽视的关键功能之一。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's the arbiter.
这是仲裁者。
Ultimately, it's the arbiter of many of these pathways.
最终，它是许多途径的仲裁者。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
On behalf of myself, and certainly on behalf of all the listeners, I want to thank you first of all, for the incredible work that you've been doing now for decades in vision, in taste, and in this bigger issue of how we perceive and experience life.
我首先代表我自己，当然也代表所有听众，感谢你们几十年来在视野、品味以及我们如何感知和体验生活这一更大问题上所做的令人难以置信的工作。
It's truly pioneering and incredible work, and I feel quite lucky to have been on the sidelines seeing this over the years and hearing the talks and reading the countless beautiful papers, but also for your time today to come down here and talk to us about what drives you and the discoveries you've made.
这是真正的开创性和令人难以置信的工作，我感到非常幸运，多年来我一直在场边看到这一点，听到演讲，阅读无数精彩的论文，也很幸运您今天能来到这里与我们谈论是什么驱动您以及您所取得的发现。
Thank you ever so much.
非常感谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was great fun.
非常有趣。
Thank you for having me.
谢谢你有我。
Dr. Charles Zuker:
查尔斯·祖克博士：
We'll do it again.
我们会再做一次。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I wish all.
我祝愿一切。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
You want to impress them on a first date, but also play it cool.
你想在第一次约会时给他们留下深刻的印象，但也要表现得冷静。
So what do you do?
那么你做什么呢？
I'm Ruthie Thorpe, and I wrote and read a real love story about a Hinge couple that navigated exactly that.
我是露丝·索普（Ruthie Thorpe），我写过并读过一个关于一对铰链夫妇的真实爱情故事，正是这样的故事。
Listen to the free audiobook now
立即收听免费有声读物