Essentials: Psychedelics for Treating Mental Disorders | Dr. Matthew Johnson
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials, where we revisit past episodes for the most potent and actionable science-based tools for mental health, physical health, and performance.
欢迎来到 Huberman Lab Essentials，在这里我们回顾过去的剧集，寻找针对心理健康、身体健康和表现的最有效、最可操作的基于科学的工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
And now, my conversation with Dr. Matthew Johnson.
现在，我与马修·约翰逊博士的对话。
Well, Matthew, I've been looking forward to this for a long time.
嗯，马修，我期待这件事很久了。
I'm a huge fan of your scientific work, and I'm eager to learn from you.
我是你的科学工作的超级粉丝，我渴望向你学习。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Likewise.
同样。
Big fan and happy to do this with you.
超级粉丝，很高兴和你一起做这件事。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Great.
太棒了。
Well, thank you.
嗯，谢谢。
My first question is a very basic one, which is what qualifies a substance as a psychedelic?
我的第一个问题是一个非常基本的问题，即什么物质符合迷幻剂的资格？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Nomenclature is a real challenge in this area of psychedelics.
命名法是迷幻药领域的一个真正的挑战。
So starting with the word psychedelic, if you're a pharmacologist, it's not very satisfying because that term really spans different pharmacological classes.
因此，如果您是一名药理学家，从迷幻这个词开始，这并不是很令人满意，因为该术语实际上涵盖了不同的药理学类别。
In other words, if you're really concerned about receptor effects and the basic effects of a compound, it spans several classes of compounds.
换句话说，如果您确实关心受体效应和化合物的基本效应，那么它涵盖了几类化合物。
But overall, so it's really more of a cultural term or it does have a relationship to drug effects, but it's at a very high level.
但总的来说，它实际上更多的是一个文化术语，或者它确实与药物作用有关，但它处于非常高的水平。
So all of the so-called psychedelics across these distinct classes that I can talk more about, the way I put it is they all have the ability to profoundly alter one's sense of reality, and that can mean many things.
因此，我可以更多地谈论这些不同类别的所有所谓迷幻药，我的说法是，它们都有能力深刻地改变一个人的现实感，这可能意味着很多事情。
Part of that is profoundly altering the sense of self acutely, so when someone's on the psychedelic.
其中一部分是深刻地改变自我意识，当某人处于迷幻状态时也是如此。
So the different classes, the specific pharmacological classes that can be called a psychedelic are, one, what are called the classic psychedelics.
因此，可以称为迷幻药的不同类别、特定药理学类别，其一是所谓的经典迷幻药。
So in the literature, you'll see that term, and hallucinogen and psychedelic have traditionally been used synonymously.
所以在文献中，你会看到这个术语，致幻剂和致幻剂传统上被用作同义词。
I think there was a little of a tendency to stay away from psychedelic because of the baggage, but there's been a return to that in the last several years.
我认为由于包袱的原因，人们有一点远离迷幻剂的倾向，但在过去几年里又出现了这种情况。
But the classic psychedelics or classic hallucinogens are things like LSD, psilocybin, which is in so-called magic mushrooms.
但经典的致幻剂或经典的致幻剂是LSD、裸盖菇素之类的东西，它存在于所谓的迷幻蘑菇中。
It's in over 200 species that we know of so far of mushrooms.
迄今为止，我们所知道的蘑菇有 200 多种。
Dimethyltryptamine or DMT, which is in dozens and dozens of plants.
二甲基色胺（DMT）存在于数十种植物中。
Mescaline, which is in the peyote cacti and some other cacti like San Pedro.
麦斯卡林，存在于佩奥特仙人掌和其他一些仙人掌（如圣佩德罗）中。
And even amongst these classic psychedelics, there are two structural classes.
即使在这些经典迷幻药中，也有两个结构类别。
So that's the chemistry.
这就是化学反应。
There's the tryptamine-based compounds like psilocybin and DMT, and then there's the phenethylamine-based compounds.
有基于色胺的化合物，如裸盖菇素和 DMT，还有基于苯乙胺的化合物。
So these are the two basic building blocks that you're starting from, either a tryptamine structure or a phenethylamine structure.
因此，这是您开始的两个基本构建块，色胺结构或苯乙胺结构。
But that's just the chemistry.
但这只是化学反应。
What's more important, or at least to someone like me, are the receptor effects, and then ultimately, that's going to have a relationship to the behavioral and subjective effects.
更重要的是，或者至少对像我这样的人来说，是受体效应，最终，这将与行为和主观效应有关。
So all of these classic psychedelics serve as agonists or partial agonists at the serotonin 2A receptor, so subtype of serotonin receptor.
因此，所有这些经典迷幻药都是血清素 2A 受体（血清素受体的亚型）的激动剂或部分激动剂。
Then you have these other classes of compounds that you could call a psychedelic.
然后还有其他类别的化合物，您可以将其称为迷幻剂。
Another big one would be the NMDA antagonist, so this would include ketamine, PCP, and dextromethorphan, something I've done some research with, which folks might recognize from robo-tripping, guzzling cough syrup.
另一个重要的药物是 NMDA 拮抗剂，所以这包括氯胺酮、五氯苯酚和右美沙芬，我对此进行了一些研究，人们可能会从机器人绊倒、狂饮止咳糖浆中认出它们。
A large overlap in the types of subjective effects that you get from those compounds compared to the 2A agonist classic psychedelics.
与 2A 激动剂经典致幻剂相比，这些化合物产生的主观效果类型有很大重叠。
But then you have another big one, MDMA, which really stands in a class by itself.
但还有另一种大药物，MDMA，它确实独树一帜。
So it's been called an entactogen and-
所以它被称为诱生剂并且-
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
What does that mean?
这意味着什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It means touching within.
意思是触及内心。
It sort of alludes the idea that it can really put someone in touch with their emotions.
它有点暗示这样的想法：它确实可以让某人接触到他们的情感。
It's also been called an empathogen, meaning it can afford empathy.
它也被称为同理心，这意味着它可以产生同理心。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
So I get the impression that this psychedelic space is a enormous cloud of partially overlapping compounds.
所以我的印象是，这个迷幻空间是一个由部分重叠的化合物组成的巨大云。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Meaning some are impacting the serotonin system more than the dopamine system.
这意味着有些物质对血清素系统的影响大于对多巴胺系统的影响。
Others are impacting the dopamine system more than the serotonin system.
其他因素对多巴胺系统的影响大于对血清素系统的影响。
Given that the definition of a psychedelic is that it profoundly alters sense of self, at least that's included as a partial definition.
鉴于迷幻剂的定义是它深刻地改变了自我意识，至少这是一个部分定义。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
I think of these psychedelics as profoundly altering models.
我认为这些迷幻药是深刻改变模型的。
We're prediction machines, and so much of that is top-down, and psychedelics have a good way of, loosely speaking, dissolving those models.
我们是预测机器，其中很多都是自上而下的，而迷幻剂有一种很好的方法，宽泛地说，可以溶解这些模型。
And one of the reality-
而现实之一是——
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Can you give us an example of a model?
您能给我们举一个模型的例子吗？
I know that when I throw a ball in the air, it falls down, not up.
我知道当我把球扔到空中时，它会向下落，而不是向上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This might sound extreme, but there are these cases, it was overblown in sort of the propaganda of the late '60s, early '70s, but there are credible cases of people, and it's very atypical, of sounds like they really thought they could fly and jump out of a window.
这可能听起来很极端，但有这些案例，它在 60 年代末、70 年代初的宣传中被夸大了，但也有可信的案例，人们的声音非常非典型，听起来他们真的认为自己可以飞翔并跳出窗户。
Now, far more people every year fall.
现在，每年跌倒的人都要多得多。
I mean, who knows?
我的意思是，谁知道呢？
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They fall and die from height because they're drunk.
他们因喝醉而从高处坠落身亡。
So this is extremely rare.
所以这种情况是极其罕见的。
But there are some pretty convincing cases.
但也有一些相当有说服力的案例。
There was one research volunteer in our studies, in one of our studies, she looked like she was trying to dive through a painting on the wall.
我们的研究中有一位研究志愿者，在我们的一项研究中，她看起来像是试图潜入墙上的一幅画。
She was fine, but she Reviewing the video, it looked like she really thought that she was going to go through that painting and-
她很好，但她回顾视频，看起来她真的以为她会浏览那幅画，然后——
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Who knows?
谁知道？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
So she was-
所以她是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Into the other dimension.
进入另一个维度。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So they're violating these predictions.
所以他们违反了这些预测。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, David.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一大卫。
David makes a protein bar unlike any other.
大卫制作的蛋白质棒与众不同。
It has 28 grams of protein, only 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar.
它含有 28 克蛋白质，仅 150 卡路里，零克糖。
That's right, 28 grams of protein and 75% of its calories come from protein.
没错，28克蛋白质，其75%的热量都来自于蛋白质。
This is 50% higher than the next closest protein bar.
这比第二接近的蛋白质棒高出 50%。
David protein bars also taste amazing.
大卫蛋白棒的味道也很棒。
Even the texture is amazing.
就连质感也令人惊叹。
My favorite bar is the chocolate chip cookie dough, but then again, I also like the new chocolate peanut butter flavor and the chocolate brownie flavor.
我最喜欢的巧克力棒是巧克力饼干面团，但话又说回来，我也喜欢新的巧克力花生酱口味和巧克力布朗尼口味。
Basically, I like all the flavors a lot.
基本上，所有的口味我都很喜欢。
They're all incredibly delicious.
它们都非常美味。
In fact, the toughest challenge is knowing which ones to eat on which days and how many times per day.
事实上，最艰巨的挑战是知道哪一天吃哪些食物以及每天吃多少次。
I limit myself to two per day, but I absolutely love them.
我限制自己每天只能吃两个，但我绝对喜欢它们。
With David, I'm able to get 28 grams of protein in the calories of a snack, which makes it easy to hit my protein goals of one gram of protein per pound of body weight per day, and it allows me to do so without ingesting too many calories.
有了 David，我就能在一份零食的卡路里中获得 28 克蛋白质，这让我很容易达到每天每磅体重 1 克蛋白质的蛋白质目标，而且我可以在不摄入太多卡路里的情况下实现这一目标。
I'll eat a David protein bar most afternoons as a snack, and I always keep one with me when I'm out of the house or traveling.
大多数下午我都会吃大卫蛋白棒作为零食，当我出门或旅行时，我总是随身携带一根。
They're incredibly delicious, and given that they have 28 grams of protein, they're really satisfying for having just 150 calories.
它们非常美味，而且含有 28 克蛋白质，仅含 150 卡路里热量就已经很令人满意了。
If you'd like to try David, you can go to davidprotein.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 David，可以访问 david Protein.com/huberman。
Again, that's davidprotein.com/huberman.
同样，这是 david Protein.com/huberman。
Given the enormous cloud of different substances and given the range of previous experiences that people show up to a psychedelic experience with, I feel like the ability to extract some universal themes is useful.
考虑到不同物质的巨大云彩，以及人们表现出迷幻体验的先前经历的范围，我觉得提取一些普遍主题的能力是有用的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Especially for people who haven't done them before, right?
尤其是对于那些以前没有做过的人来说，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Who might not have an understanding of what their effects are like.
谁可能不了解它们的效果。
Can we just briefly touch on the serotonin system?
我们可以简单地谈谈血清素系统吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
So compounds like LSD, lysergic acid diethylamide, and psilocybin, my understanding is that they primarily target the serotonin system.
因此，LSD、麦角酸二乙酰胺和裸盖菇素等化合物，我的理解是它们主要针对血清素系统。
How do they do that at a kind of general level, and why would increasing the activity of a particular serotonin receptor or batch of serotonin receptors lead to these profoundly different experiences that we're calling model challenges, challenging preexisting models and traditions?
他们如何在一般水平上做到这一点？为什么增加特定血清素受体或一批血清素受体的活性会导致这些截然不同的体验，我们称之为模型挑战，挑战预先存在的模型和传统？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
At the end of the day, it's a chemical, and these receptors are scattered around the brain with billions of other receptors.
归根结底，它是一种化学物质，这些受体与数十亿其他受体一起分散在大脑周围。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
What do we think is going on in a general sense?
我们认为一般意义上正在发生什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And this is really the area of active exploration, and we don't have great answers.
这确实是一个正在积极探索的领域，但我们还没有很好的答案。
We know a good amount about the receptor-level pharmacology, some things about post-receptor signaling pathways.
我们对受体水平药理学以及受体后信号传导途径了解很多。
In other words, just fitting into the receptor.
换句话说，只是适应受体。
Clearly, serotonin itself is not psychedelic or else we'd be tripping, all of us, all the time.
显然，血清素本身并不具有迷幻作用，否则我们所有人都会一直迷迷糊糊。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Because when I eat a bagel, I get serotonin release, right?
因为当我吃百吉饼时，我会释放血清素，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
I mean, there's-
我的意思是，有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's very different than LSD
它与 LSD 有很大不同
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
...
...
or turkey.
或火鸡。
I mean, there's tryptophan.
我的意思是，有色氨酸。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
My understanding of serotonin is that in very broad strokes, that it generally leads to a state of being fairly-- It pushes the mind and body towards a state of contentment-
我对血清素的理解是，从广义上讲，它通常会导致一种公平的状态——它推动身心走向满足的状态——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
...
...
within the immediate experience.
在直接的体验范围内。
Whereas the dopamine system really places us into an external view of what's out there in the world and what's possible.
而多巴胺系统确实让我们以外部视角看待世界上的事物和可能性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Is that fair to say?
这么说公平吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Need to do something.
需要做点什么。
That's consistent with my understanding.
这和我的理解是一致的。
And I'll certainly not in terms of I don't primarily identify as a neuroscientist, definitely tell the viewers that we're far more in your domain here than mine, but in terms of how psychedelics and other drugs interface at the neuroscience level.
我当然不会因为我主要不是神经科学家而告诉观众，我们在这里比我更属于你们的领域，而是就致幻剂和其他药物在神经科学层面上的相互作用而言。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Well, feel free to explain it at the experiential level.
好吧，请随意从经验层面进行解释。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Let's say I were to come to one of your clinical trials, because these are clinical trials, right?
假设我要参加你们的一项临床试验，因为这些都是临床试验，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
At your lab at Hopkins.
在你在霍普金斯大学的实验室。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
And would I need to be depressed, or could I just be somebody who wanted to explore psychedelics?
我是否需要感到沮丧，或者我可以只是想探索迷幻药吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We've had studies for all of these.
我们对所有这些都进行了研究。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And a number of other disorders.
以及许多其他疾病。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So healthy, normal studies.
如此健康、正常的学习。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The code for not a problem to fix, but we're all here.
代码不是一个需要解决的问题，但我们都在这里。
That's what's amazing about psychedelics, though, because if you administer them under this model, and you develop a relationship and give a high dose of psychedelic, you can be healthy, normal without a diagnosable issue.
然而，这就是迷幻药的神奇之处，因为如果你在这种模式下使用它们，并且建立起一种关系并给予高剂量的迷幻药，你就可以保持健康、正常，而不会出现可诊断的问题。
But man, we're all human, and the issues seem to come to the surface.
但是，我们都是人，问题似乎都会浮出水面。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Sure.
当然。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But we've done work with smoking cessation, so people trying to quit tobacco and haven't been successful.
但我们已经做了戒烟工作，所以人们试图戒烟但没有成功。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
So a variety of reasons.
所以各种原因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
So maybe I'll just ask some very simple questions that would kind of step us through the process.
因此，也许我只会问一些非常简单的问题，以引导我们完成整个过程。
So let's say I were to sign up for one of these trials, and I qualified for one of these trials.
假设我要报名参加其中一项试验，并且我有资格参加其中一项试验。
I'd show up.
我会出现的。
You said I would do several hours in advance of getting to know the team that would-
你说我会提前几个小时去了解这个团队，他们会-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
...
...
be present during this psychedelic journey.
参与这段迷幻之旅。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
First, there's screening, so it's kind of like a couple of days of both structured psychiatric interviews about your whole past and symptoms across the DSM, the psychiatric bible, to see if you might have various disorders that could disqualify you.
首先是筛查，所以这有点像几天的结构化精神病学访谈，内容涉及您的整个过去和 DSM（精神病学圣经）中的症状，看看您是否可能患有各种可能使您失去资格的疾病。
The main ones being the psychotic disorders, schizophrenia, and also including bipolar.
主要是精神障碍、精神分裂症，也包括双相情感障碍。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the manic side of bipolar.
所以双相情感障碍的狂躁的一面。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And also cardiovascular screening, heart disease.
还有心血管检查、心脏病。
After that screening, then the preparation where you develop a therapeutic rapport with the people who are going to be in the room with you, your guides.
筛选之后，然后是准备工作，您与将要与您一起在房间里的人（您的指导）建立治疗关系。
But you're also then didactically sort of explained about what the psychedelic could be like, and that's kind of a laundry list because they're more known by their variability.
但你也会以说教的方式解释迷幻剂可能是什么样的，这是一份详细清单，因为它们因其可变性而更为人所知。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You could have the most beautiful experience of your life or the most terrifying experience of your life.
你可能会经历一生中最美好的经历，也可能经历一生中最可怕的经历。
So it's this kind of laundry list of the things that could happen, so there are no surprises.
所以这就是可能发生的事情的清单，所以没有什么意外。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
I think it's so important for people to hear because you really can't predict how somebody is going to react internally.
我认为人们听到这一点非常重要，因为你真的无法预测某人的内心反应。
Let's say that somebody passes all the prerequisites and And it's the day.
假设有人通过了所有先决条件，并且今天就是这样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Comes the day that they're going to have this experience.
他们将有这样的经历的那一天到来了。
Are they eating mushrooms like you hear about, or are they taking it in capsule form, and how do they get it into their body?
他们是像你听说的那样吃蘑菇，还是以胶囊的形式服用蘑菇，他们是如何将其摄入体内的？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So they receive pure psilocybin.
所以他们接受纯裸盖菇素。
Most of our studies are looking at where we want a psychedelic effect are in the 20 to 30 milligram range.
我们的大多数研究都着眼于我们想要的迷幻效果在 20 至 30 毫克范围内。
The session day itself, for most of our studies, is not full of tasks.
对于我们的大部分学习来说，会议日本身并不充满任务。
We really want to look at the therapeutic response.
我们真的想看看治疗反应。
Obviously, if it's a therapeutic study, we want it to be a meaningful experience, and research has found, not surprisingly, that you get a less meaningful experience when you're in an fMRI-
显然，如果这是一项治疗性研究，我们希望它成为一次有意义的体验，研究发现，毫不奇怪，当你进行功能磁共振成像时，你会得到一种不太有意义的体验——
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or when you're doing a lot of cognitive tasks.
或者当您正在执行大量认知任务时。
So our typical therapeutic model, which again, isn't just limited necessarily to the therapeutic studies where we're trying to treat a specific disorder, is to have that preparation so the person feels very comfortable with their guides.
因此，我们典型的治疗模式不仅限于我们试图治疗特定疾病的治疗研究，而是做好准备，让患者对他们的指导感到非常舒服。
Ultimately, what I tell people is any emotional response, it's all welcome.
最终，我告诉人们的是任何情绪反应，都是受欢迎的。
You could be crying like a baby hysterically.
你可能会像婴儿一样歇斯底里地哭泣。
That's what you should be doing if that's what you feel like.
如果你有这样的感觉，那就应该这么做。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
You're doing therapy for people.
你正在为人们做治疗。
It's not just about the experience.
这不仅仅是体验的问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right, and the experience itself is very much shaped by that container, by the environment, and the degree to which one allows it to happen.
是的，体验本身在很大程度上是由容器、环境以及允许体验发生的程度决定的。
One should let go of control.
人应该放弃控制。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
The letting go of control is an interesting feature, actually, because one of the common themes of good psychoanalysis or psychotherapy of any kind is that there's a trust built between the patient and the analyst, and that relationship becomes a template for trust more generally and trust in oneself.
实际上，放弃控制是一个有趣的特征，因为良好的精神分析或任何类型的心理治疗的共同主题之一是患者和分析师之间建立了信任，并且这种关系成为更广泛的信任和对自己的信任的模板。
How do you convince people to go further and further down that path?
你如何说服人们沿着这条路走得越来越远？
What do you think allows them to do that?
您认为是什么允许他们这样做？
Because I think that, to me, is one of the more unusual aspects to psychedelics, is that normally, the social pressure, but also just our internal pressure from our own brain is, pay attention to many things at once-
因为我认为，对我来说，迷幻药最不寻常的方面之一是，通常情况下，社会压力，但也只是我们大脑的内部压力，同时注意很多事情——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
...
...
not just one.
不只是一个。
Is that-
难道是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Especially these days.
尤其是现在。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Multitask.
多任务。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Right.
对。
Multitask, and the more that we focus on one thing, the more bizarre that thing actually can appear to us, right?
多任务处理，我们越专注于一件事，那件事实际上对我们来说就越奇怪，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Even if it's the tip of your finger and you're not taking any psychedelics, you spend long enough looking at the tip of your finger, you will notice-
即使是你的指尖，而且你没有服用任何迷幻药，你花足够长的时间看着你的指尖，你会注意到——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it is weird
是的，这很奇怪
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
...
...
some very weird things.
一些非常奇怪的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Right?
对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think of that as the classic psychedelic effect, or one classic effect, and one I've used many times of this example of why people shouldn't necessarily-- One should be judicious in putting themselves in these circumstances.
我认为这是一种经典的迷幻效果，或者一种经典的效果，我在这个例子中多次使用过这种效果，说明为什么人们不一定应该——一个人应该明智地将自己置于这些环境中。
Someone could be having a very strong psilocybin experience, and they're trying to navigate their way in Manhattan, crossing the street, and they might be staring into their hand and realize their hand is the most amazing miracle.
有人可能有非常强烈的裸盖菇素体验，他们正试图在曼哈顿导航，过马路，他们可能会盯着自己的手，意识到自己的手是最惊人的奇迹。
The entire universe has essentially conspired to come to this one point to make this absolutely breathtaking.
整个宇宙基本上已经共同走到了这一步，使得这绝对是令人惊叹的。
It's almost like, I think, of the simplest form of, well, we know the simplest form of learning is habituation.
我认为，这几乎就像是最简单的形式，嗯，我们知道最简单的学习形式是习惯化。
Simply keep applying stimuli, and there's less response.
只要继续施加刺激，反应就会减少。
This is what organisms do.
这就是生物体所做的事情。
This is what we have to do, and it's like there's this dishabituation component that-
这就是我们必须做的，就像有一个去习惯的成分——
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Dishabituation.
不习惯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes.
是的。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We wouldn't be able to get through life, and we wouldn't be able to cross that street if we were like, "Hold, this is a miracle."
如果我们说“等等，这是一个奇迹”，我们就无法度过一生，也无法穿过那条街。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
It sounds like on psychedelics, one of the primary goals therapeutically is to really drill into one of these perceptual bubbles and expand that bubble, and the safety-
听起来就像迷幻药一样，治疗的主要目标之一是真正钻入这些感知泡沫之一并扩大该泡沫，以及安全性-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
...
...
it seems is the safety, it's sort of like a permission to do that without worrying that something's going to happen.
这似乎是安全的，有点像允许这样做而不用担心会发生什么事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Because I've had people there on the couch.
因为我已经有人坐在沙发上了。
Yeah, I remember one lady said, this is probably 13, 14 years ago, said, "Matt, tell me again I can't die.
是的，我记得一位女士说，这可能是 13、14 年前，她说：“马特，再告诉我一次，我不能死。
I feel like my heart is going to rip through my chest." She was feeling her-- And I should say, typically, cardiovascular response is modest.
我感觉我的心要撕裂我的胸腔了。”她感觉到她——我应该说，通常情况下，心血管反应是温和的。
The pulse and blood pressure go up.
脉搏和血压上升。
Then if it goes over a certain level, we have a protocol, and we've had to do this only a few times, but the physician comes in, gives them a little nitroglycerin under the tongue, and knocks the blood pressure down a little bit.
然后，如果血压超过一定水平，我们有一个方案，我们只需要这样做几次，但医生会进来，给他们舌下一点硝酸甘油，然后将血压稍微降低一点。
Doesn't affect the experience.
不影响体验。
So we have it all in place, even though they'd probably be fine out of an abundance of caution.
所以我们已经把一切都准备好了，尽管出于高度的谨慎他们可能会没事。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But someone can feel that, "My God, I'm going to die.
但有人可以感觉到，“天啊，我快要死了。
I have never felt my heart beat like this before."
我以前从来没有感觉到我的心跳像这样。”
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
So there's an expansion of a particular, fairly narrow percept.
因此，一种特定的、相当狭隘的观念得到了扩展。
It could be sound-
可能是声音——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
...
...
could be an emotion, could be sadness, could be a historical event or a fear of the future.
可能是一种情绪，可能是悲伤，可能是历史事件或对未来的恐惧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes.
是的。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
And you've mentioned before that there's something to be learned in that experience.
您之前提到过，从这次经历中可以学到一些东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
There's something about going into that experience in an undeterred way that allows somebody to bring something back into more standard reality.
以一种不受阻碍的方式进入这种体验，可以让某人将某些东西带回到更标准的现实中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Given the huge variety of experiences that people have on psychedelics, given the huge variety of humans that are out there, but what are now very clear therapeutic effects in the realm of depression, what do you think is the value of going into this fairly restricted perceptual bubble, what we are calling letting go or giving up control?
考虑到人们对迷幻药的体验多种多样，考虑到人类的种类繁多，但现在在抑郁症领域有非常明显的治疗效果，你认为进入这个相当有限的知觉泡沫（我们所说的放手或放弃控制）的价值是什么？
Because if the experiences are many, but the value of what one exports from that experience is kind of similar across individuals-
因为如果经历很多，但从这些经历中输出的价值在不同个体之间是相似的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
...
...
that raises all sorts of interesting questions, and this is not a philosophy discussion.
这提出了各种有趣的问题，这不是哲学讨论。
We're talking about biology and psychology here.
我们在这里谈论生物学和心理学。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
So what are your thoughts on that?
那么你对此有何看法？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is in the terrain we're figuring out.
这是我们正在研究的地形。
So educated speculation is the best I can provide, but I- I think the common denominator are persisting changes in self-representation.
因此，有根据的猜测是我能提供的最好的，但我-我认为共同点是自我表现的持续变化。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Okay.
好的。
Tell me more about self-representation.
告诉我更多关于自我代表的信息。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's the way one holds the sense of self, the fundamental relationship of a person in the world.
这就是一个人持有自我意识的方式，也是一个人与世界的基本关系。
I mentioned earlier that these experiences seem to alter the models we hold of reality, and I think that the self is the biggest model.
我之前提到，这些经历似乎改变了我们对现实的模型，我认为自我是最大的模型。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That I am a thing that's separate from other things, and I have a certain personality, and I'm a smoker that's having a hard time quitting, or I'm a depressed person that views myself as a failure, and all of these things.
我是一个与其他事物分开的东西，我有一定的个性，我是一个很难戒烟的烟民，或者我是一个抑郁的人，认为自己是一个失败者，等等。
Those are models, too.
这些也是模型。
And like-
就像——
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
So this is this expansion of the perceptual bubble, a narrow percept that then grows within the confines of that narrow percept.
这就是知觉泡沫的扩张，一种狭隘的知觉，然后在狭隘知觉的范围内成长。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
So sense of self is a very interesting phenomenon, and if we could dissect it a little bit.
所以自我意识是一个非常有趣的现象，如果我们能稍微剖析一下它的话。
There's the somatic sense of self, so the ability to literally feel the self, this process we call interoception.
存在自我的躯体感觉，因此能够真正感受到自我，这个过程我们称之为内感受。
And then there's the title of the self, the I am blank.
然后是自我的标题，“我是空白的”。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
And I notice you said that several times, and it's intriguing to me how one defines themselves internally, not just to other people.
我注意到你说过好几次了，我很感兴趣一个人如何在内部定义自己，而不仅仅是对其他人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
But how one psychologically and by default defines themselves, I think, is very powerful.
但我认为，一个人在心理上和默认情况下如何定义自己是非常强大的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
And depressed people, as well as happy people, seem to define themselves in terms of these categories of emotional states.
抑郁的人和快乐的人似乎都是根据这些情绪状态类别来定义自己的。
So I think it's so interesting that letting go and going into this perceptual bubble, which is facilitated by, obviously, a really wonderful team of therapists, but also the serotonergic agent-
所以我认为放手并进入这个知觉泡沫是非常有趣的，这显然是由一个非常出色的治疗师团队以及血清素剂促进的 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
...
...
allows us to potentially reshape the perception of self.
使我们有可能重塑自我认知。
That's a tremendous feat of neuroplasticity.
这是神经可塑性的一项伟大壮举。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
I think there's something about this change in sense of self.
我认为这种自我意识的变化是有一定影响的。
There seems to be something on the identity level, both with, I think, of the work we did with cancer patients who had substantial depression, anxiety because of their cancer, and also our work with people trying to quit cigarette smoking.
我认为，在身份层面上似乎存在一些问题，无论是我们对因癌症而患有严重抑郁、焦虑的癌症患者所做的工作，还是对试图戒烟的人所做的工作。
There seems to be, when it really works, this change in how people view themselves.
当它真正起作用时，人们看待自己的方式似乎会发生这种变化。
Like with smoking-
就像吸烟一样——
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
really stepping out of this model.
真正走出这个模式。
Like, "I'm a smoker.
就像，“我是一个吸烟者。
It's tough to quit smoking cigarettes.
戒烟很难。
I can't do it.
我做不到。
I failed a bunch of times." I remember one participant during the session, but he held onto this afterwards, said, "My God, it's like I can really just decide," like flicking off a butt, "I can decide not to smoke." And I call these duh experiences with psychedelics because people often, like in the cancer study, you say, "I'm causing most of my own suffering.
我失败了很多次。”我记得会议期间有一位参与者，但他后来坚持了下来，说，“天啊，这就像我真的可以决定”，就像弹掉屁股一样，“我可以决定不吸烟。”我称这些为迷幻剂的经历是因为人们经常，就像在癌症研究中一样，你会说，“我造成了我自己的大部分痛苦。
I can follow my appointments.
我可以遵守我的预约。
I can do everything, but I can still plan for the vaca- I'm not getting outside in the sunshine.
我可以做一切事情，但我仍然可以为假期做好计划——我不会出去晒太阳。
I'm not playing with my grandkids.
我不和我的孙子们一起玩。
I'm choosing to do that." And it's like they told themselves that before, and the smoker has told themselves a million times.
我选择这样做。”就像他们以前告诉自己一样，吸烟者已经告诉自己一百万次了。
When it comes out of their mouths, folks will say, this is part of the ineffability of a psychedelic experience, folks are like, "I know this sounds like bullshit, and this sounds like...
当它从他们嘴里说出来时，人们会说，这是迷幻体验中不可言喻的一部分，人们会说，“我知道这听起来像废话，这听起来像......
But my God, I could just decide." They're feeling this gravity of agency that seems to be, at times, fundamentally supercharged from a psychedelic experience.
但天哪，我可以决定。”他们感受到了这种力量的重力，有时，这种力量似乎从根本上从迷幻的经历中得到了增强。
This idea like, I'm just going to make a decision.
这个想法就像，我要做一个决定。
Normally, you tell a depressed person, "Don't think of yourself that way.
通常，你会告诉抑郁的人：“不要那样想自己。
You're not a failure.
你不是一个失败者。
Look at all the-"
看看这一切——”
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
They can't do it.
他们做不到。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But you can actually, in one of these states, have an experience where you realize like, my God.
但实际上，在其中一种状态下，你可以有一种体验，让你意识到，我的上帝。
Just like using MDMA to treat PTSD, and we're going to be starting work with psilocybin to treat PTSD, someone could really reprocess their trauma in a way that has lasting effects, and clearly, there's probably something, reconsolidation of those memories.
就像使用摇头丸来治疗创伤后应激障碍一样，我们将开始使用裸盖菇素来治疗创伤后应激障碍，有人真的可以以一种具有持久影响的方式重新处理他们的创伤，显然，可能有一些东西，这些记忆的重新巩固。
They are altered, very consistent with our understanding of the way memory works.
它们被改变了，非常符合我们对记忆运作方式的理解。
So the whole idea, people can actually, in a few hours, have such a profound experience that they decide to make these changes in who they are, and it sticks.
所以整个想法，人们实际上可以在几个小时内获得如此深刻的体验，以至于他们决定对自己做出这些改变，并且它会持续下去。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。
AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens.
AG1 是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮料，还包含益生元和适应原。
As somebody who's been involved in research science for almost three decades and in health and fitness for equally as long, I'm constantly looking for the best tools to improve my mental health, physical health, and performance.
作为一个从事科学研究近三十年以及同样长期从事健康和健身工作的人，我一直在寻找最好的工具来改善我的心理健康、身体健康和表现。
I discovered AG1 back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since.
我早在 2012 年就发现了 AG1，那时我还没有播客，从那时起我就每天都在服用它。
I find it improves all aspects of my health, my energy, my focus, and I simply feel much better when I take it.
我发现它改善了我的健康、精力、注意力的各个方面，而且服用它后我感觉好多了。
AG1 uses the highest quality ingredients in the right combinations, and they're constantly improving their formulas without increasing the cost.
AG1 使用最优质的成分进行正确的组合，并且在不增加成本的情况下不断改进其配方。
In fact, AG1 just launched their latest formula upgrade.
事实上，AG1刚刚推出了他们最新的配方升级。
This next-gen formula is based on exciting new research on the effects of probiotics on the gut microbiome, and it now includes several clinically studied probiotic strains shown to support both digestive health and immune system health, as well as to improve bowel regularity and to reduce bloating.
这种下一代配方基于关于益生菌对肠道微生物组影响的令人兴奋的新研究，它现在包含几种经过临床研究的益生菌菌株，这些益生菌菌株显示出支持消化健康和免疫系统健康，以及改善肠道规律性和减少腹胀。
Whenever I'm asked if I could take just one supplement, what that supplement would be, I always say AG1.
每当我被问到是否可以只服用一种补充剂时，我总是说 AG1。
If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman。
For a limited time, AG1 is giving away a free one-month supply of omega-3 fish oil, along with a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2.
AG1 限时免费赠送一个月的 omega-3 鱼油，以及一瓶维生素 D3 加 K2。
As I've highlighted before on this podcast, omega-3 fish oil and vitamin D3 K2 have been shown to help with everything from mood and brain health, to heart health, to healthy hormone status, and much more.
正如我之前在此播客中强调的那样，omega-3 鱼油和维生素 D3 K2 已被证明对改善情绪和大脑健康、心脏健康、健康激素状态等各个方面都有帮助。
Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman to get a free one-month supply of omega-3 fish oil, plus a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2 with your subscription.
再次强调，您可以通过 Drinkag1.com/huberman 获得一个月的免费 omega-3 鱼油，以及一瓶维生素 D3 和 K2。
Today's episode is also brought to us by BetterHelp.
今天的节目也是由 BetterHelp 为我们带来的。
BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online.
BetterHelp 提供由持证治疗师完全在线进行的专业治疗。
I've been doing weekly therapy for well over 30 years.
三十多年来我每周进行一次治疗。
Initially, I didn't have a choice.
最初，我别无选择。
It was a condition of being allowed to stay in school.
这是被允许留在学校的一个条件。
But pretty soon, I realized that therapy is an extremely important component to overall health.
但很快，我意识到治疗对于整体健康来说是极其重要的组成部分。
In fact, I consider doing regular therapy just as important as getting regular exercise, including cardiovascular exercise and resistance training, which of course, I also do every week.
事实上，我认为定期治疗与定期锻炼一样重要，包括心血管锻炼和阻力训练，当然，我每周也会进行这些锻炼。
There are essentially three things that great therapy provides.
伟大的治疗本质上可以提供三件事。
First of all, it provides a good rapport with somebody that you can trust and talk to about all issues that you're concerned about.
首先，它与您可以信任的人建立了良好的融洽关系，并可以与您谈论您关心的所有问题。
Second of all, it can provide support in the form of emotional support or directed guidance.
其次，它可以以情感支持或定向指导的形式提供支持。
And third, expert therapy can provide useful insights.
第三，专家治疗可以提供有用的见解。
With BetterHelp, they make it very easy to find an expert therapist with whom you resonate with and can provide those benefits that come through effective therapy.
通过 BetterHelp，他们可以很容易地找到与您产生共鸣的专家治疗师，并可以通过有效的治疗提供这些好处。
Also, because BetterHelp allows therapy to be done entirely online, it's very time efficient.
此外，由于 BetterHelp 允许治疗完全在线完成，因此非常省时。
It's easy to fit into a busy schedule.
很容易适应繁忙的日程。
There's no commuting to a therapist's office or sitting in a waiting room or anything like that.
无需通勤到治疗师办公室或坐在候诊室或类似的地方。
You simply go online and hold your appointment.
您只需上网并预约即可。
If you would like to try BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month.
如果您想尝试 BetterHelp，请访问 betterhelp.com/huberman，第一个月可享受 10% 的折扣。
Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman.
再说一次，这是 betterhelp.com/huberman。
I'm fascinated by this idea that a somatic and a perceptual experience, but a real experience of the sort that you're describing-
我对这种身体和感知体验很着迷，但你所描述的那种真实体验-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
...
...
is what allows us to reshape our neural circuitry and to feel differently about ourselves.
正是它让我们能够重塑我们的神经回路并对自己有不同的感觉。
And I know there's been really tremendous success in many individuals of alleviating depression-
我知道许多人在缓解抑郁症方面确实取得了巨大的成功——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
...
...
of treating trauma with these different compounds.
用这些不同的化合物治疗创伤。
If we could, I'd like to just ask about some of the more dopaminergic compounds.
如果可以的话，我想问一下一些更具多巴胺能的化合物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
In particular, MDMA.
特别是摇头丸。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
And my understanding is that MDMA leads to very robust increases in both dopamine and serotonin simultaneously.
我的理解是，MDMA 会同时导致多巴胺和血清素的强劲增加。
So why would it be that having this increased dopamine and increased serotonin would provide an experience that is beneficial, and to the extent that you can describe it, how do you think that experience differs from the sorts of experiences that people have on psilocybin or more serotonergic agents?
那么，为什么增加多巴胺和增加血清素会提供一种有益的体验，并且在您可以描述的范围内，您认为这种体验与人们服用裸盖菇素或更多血清素药物的体验有何不同？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Speculating, but it may be that MDMA, for a broader number of people, is better for trauma because the chances of having an extremely challenging experience, what I call the bad trip, really freaking out, is much lower with MDMA.
推测，但对于更广泛的人来说，摇头丸可能更适合治疗创伤，因为使用摇头丸后，经历极具挑战性的经历（我称之为糟糕的旅行，真的吓坏了）的机会要低得多。
People can have bad trips, but they're of a different nature.
人们可能会经历糟糕的旅行，但他们的性质不同。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Well, what is the-
嗯，那是什么——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not sort of freaking out because all of reality is sort of shattering, and it's less of this, it can take so many forms with the classic psychedelics, but typically, you'll hear something like, "I didn't know it was going to be like this." No matter how hard you tried to prepare them that like, "This is like, get me off this ride."
这并不是一种惊慌，因为所有的现实都在破碎，而且它不是这样的，它可以采用经典迷幻剂的多种形式，但通常情况下，你会听到这样的话，“我不知道它会是这样的。”无论你多么努力地让他们做好准备，“这就像，让我离开这趟旅程。”
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
You're talking about LSD or psilocybin?
你是在谈论LSD还是裸盖菇素？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
LSD, psilocybin, ayahuasca.
LSD、裸盖菇素、死藤水。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Bad trip.
糟糕的旅行。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And just this sense of like, "I'm going insane.
就是这种感觉，“我快要疯了。
This is so far beyond anything I've ever experienced, and it's scaring the shit out of me."
这远远超出了我经历过的任何事情，它把我吓坏了。”
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
How often does that happen?
这种情况多久发生一次？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"I don't have a toehold on anything-
“我在任何事情上都没有立足点——
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
even that I exist as an entity." And that can be really-- I think, frankly, experientially, that's kind of the gateway to both the transcendental mystical experiences, the sense of unity with all things, which we know our data suggests is related to long-term positive outcomes.
甚至我作为一个实体而存在。”坦率地说，从经验上来说，这确实是通向超验神秘体验和与万物统一的感觉的门户，我们知道我们的数据表明这与长期的积极成果有关。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Wait, I want to make sure I understand.
等等，我想确认一下我是否理解。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I'll-
但我会-
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
So you're saying the bad trip can be related to the transcendental experience?
所以你是说糟糕的旅行可能与超然的经历有关？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
I think those are both speculating, but you have to pass through this sort of reality shattering, including your sense of self, and one can handle that in one of two ways.
我认为这些都是猜测，但你必须经历这种现实的破碎，包括你的自我意识，人们可以通过以下两种方式之一来处理它。
You can either completely surrender to it, or you can try to hang on, and if you try to hang on, it's going to be more like a bad trip.
你要么完全屈服于它，要么你可以尝试坚持下去，如果你试图坚持下去，那将更像是一次糟糕的旅行。
So again, I wish there was more, and hopefully there will be more experimentation.
所以，我再次希望有更多，并希望能有更多的实验。
There's a lot going on here in the black box in terms of the operant behavior of how you are within yourself choosing to handle, like letting go.
黑匣子里发生了很多关于你内心如何选择处理的操作行为，比如放手。
And eventually, we'll be able to see this in real-time with brain imaging.
最终，我们将能够通过大脑成像实时看到这一点。
"There they are surrendering to the psychedelic experience.
“在那里，他们屈服于迷幻体验。
Here they are trying to hold on." But we're not there yet.
他们正在努力坚持下去。”但我们还没有到那一步。
But I think through clinical observation, it seems pretty clear that something like that is going on.
但我认为通过临床观察，很明显类似的事情正在发生。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
There has been an attempt at creating this movement toward openness about psychedelics and their positive effects.
人们一直在尝试发起一场关于迷幻药及其积极作用的开放运动。
This has happened before.
这种情况以前也发生过。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
The difference is that now there are people like you inside the walls of the university who are publishing peer-reviewed studies and things of that sort.
不同之处在于，现在大学里有像你这样的人正在发表同行评审的研究和类似的东西。
The question is, to me, what are the valuable exports, right?
问题是，对我来说，有价值的出口是什么，对吧？
And where does the extreme lie?
而极端又在哪里呢？
Clearly, there's a problem with tinkering with reality through pharmacology, and there's a benefit, it sounds like-
显然，通过药理学修补现实是有问题的，但也有好处，听起来像——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
...
...
to tinkering with reality through pharmacology.
通过药理学修补现实。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
And for the average person, right, or for kids that are hearing this, kids that are in their teens, right?
对于普通人来说，或者对于听到这个的孩子，十几岁的孩子，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
I want to talk about what are the dangers of psychedelics?
我想谈谈迷幻药的危害有哪些？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
This is something you don't hear a lot about these days, and it's not because I'm anti-psychedelic at all, but what are the dangers?
这些天你很少听到这种事，这根本不是因为我反对迷幻药，但它有什么危险呢？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So these can be profoundly destabilizing experiences, and ones that ideally are had in a safe container, sort of where someone-- What are the relevant dangers, and what can we do to mitigate those?
因此，这些可能是严重破坏稳定的经历，理想情况下，这些经历应该放在安全的容器中，比如有人——相关的危险是什么，我们可以采取什么措施来减轻这些危险？
So there's two biggies.
所以有两个大人物。
One, and I've already mentioned, it's people with Very severe psychiatric illness, not depression, not anxiety.
一，我已经提到过，这是患有非常严重的精神疾病的人，而不是抑郁症，不是焦虑症。
I'm talking about psychotic disorders like schizophrenia or mania as part of bipolar disorder.
我说的是精神分裂症或躁狂症等精神障碍，属于躁郁症的一部分。
The far more likely danger is the bad trip.
更有可能发生的危险是糟糕的旅程。
Anyone can have this, the most psychologically healthy person in the world, probably.
任何人都可以拥有这个，可能是世界上心理最健康的人。
You jack the dose high enough, and especially in a less than an ideal environment, you can have a bad trip.
如果您将剂量调得足够高，尤其是在不太理想的环境中，您的旅行可能会很糟糕。
You even get it in an ideal environment like ours at a high dose of around 30 milligrams of psilocybin, after the best preparation we can provide.
经过我们所能提供的最佳准备后，您甚至可以在像我们这样的理想环境中以约 30 毫克的高剂量裸盖菇素获得它。
About a third of people will say, essentially, at some point, they have a bad trip.
大约三分之一的人会说，本质上，在某些时候，他们的旅行很糟糕。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
At some point within the entire journey?
在整个旅程的某个时刻？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Now, they could have one of the most beautiful experiences of their life sometimes a couple of minutes later.
现在，有时几分钟后，他们就可以拥有一生中最美好的经历之一。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But at some point, they had a sense of strong anxiety, fear, losing their mind, feeling trapped, something like that.
但在某些时候，他们有一种强烈的焦虑感、恐惧感、失去理智、感觉被困住等等。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
I definitely want to ask you about microdose versus standard or macrodosing psilocybin.
我确实想问您有关微剂量与标准或大剂量裸盖菇素的情况。
I'm micro-cynical if you will, about this term microdose.
如果你愿意的话，我对微剂量这个词持微愤世嫉俗的态度。
Is there any clinical evidence or peer-reviewed published evidence that it works, quote unquote, to make people feel better about anything?
是否有任何临床证据或经过同行评审的已发表证据表明它可以让人们对任何事情感觉更好？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So yeah, the claims are, and there are a number of them, there's two general ones.
是的，这些主张是存在的，而且有很多，其中有两个一般性的。
One is sort of acting in place of the ADHD treating drugs, so the psychomotor stimulants, so like a better version of Adderall.
一种是替代多动症治疗药物，例如精神运动兴奋剂，就像更好版本的阿得拉。
The other claims are essentially a better version of the traditional antidepressants, a better version of Prozac.
其他声称本质上是传统抗抑郁药的更好版本，是百忧解的更好版本。
None of the peer-reviewed studies that have much credibility, none of them have shown a benefit.
没有一项经过同行评审的研究有多大可信度，也没有一项显示出好处。
The handful of studies that have done that have shown they've ranged from finding no effect whatsoever to just a little bit of impairment, like impairing someone's ability to do time estimation and production tasks.
已经进行的少数研究表明，它们的范围从没有发现任何影响到只有一点点损害，例如损害某人完成时间估计和生产任务的能力。
So you want an accurate sense of time, at least if you're navigating in the real world.
因此，您需要准确的时间感，至少在现实世界中航行时是这样。
It's different if you're on the couch on a heroic dose for therapeutic reasons where you're safe, but if you're crossing the street, if you're get--
如果你出于安全的原因而在沙发上服用英雄剂量的药物，情况就不同了，但如果你过马路，如果你——
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
You have to function in the world.
你必须在世界上发挥作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In your work life.
在你的工作生活中。
Yeah, which is the way people are claiming to use it.
是的，这就是人们声称的使用它的方式。
It helps them be a better CEO.
这有助于他们成为更好的首席执行官。
You want an accurate sense of time.
您想要准确的时间感。
So if anything, the data suggests that it makes it a little bit less accurate, and there's evidence that someone feels a little bit impaired, and they feel a little bit high.
因此，如果说有什么不同的话，那就是数据表明，这使得它的准确性有点降低，而且有证据表明，有人感觉有点受损，他们感觉有点兴奋。
So in terms of, you call that abuse liability in research.
因此，就研究而言，您将其称为滥用责任。
So far, no studies have shown an increase in creativity, enhancement of any form of cognition, or a sustained improvement in mood.
到目前为止，还没有研究表明创造力的增加、任何形式认知的增强或情绪的持续改善。
Now, no studies have actually looked at the system of microdosing that the aficionados are claiming.
现在，还没有研究真正研究过狂热者所声称的微剂量系统。
Folks like Paul Stamets and others, they'll have particular formulas.
像保罗·斯塔梅茨和其他人这样的人，他们会有特定的公式。
They're like, "You need to take it one day and then take so many days off and take it every four days." They really say you need to be on it for a while, like a few weeks in, you may start to notice through this pattern of using it, and you're feeling the benefits on those off days, like the three or two days in between your active doses.
他们会说，“你需要一天服用一次，然后休息很多天，每四天服用一次。”他们确实说你需要服用一段时间，比如几周后，你可能会开始注意到这种使用模式，并且你会在休息日感受到它的好处，比如你服用活性剂量之间的三到两天。
So those are the claims.
这些就是主张。
Again, we don't know that there's any truth to that working, but studies have not been done to model that.
再说一次，我们不知道这种做法是否真实，但还没有进行研究来模拟这一点。
So that's a big caveat.
所以这是一个很大的警告。
My bet is, and this is totally based on anecdotes, that I think there is probably a reality to the antidepressant effects.
我敢打赌，这完全是基于轶事，我认为抗抑郁作用可能是现实的。
I find that more intriguing-
我觉得更有趣的是——
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Well, serotonin
嗯，血清素
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because of the suffering with depression.
因为抑郁症的痛苦。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It wouldn't be as interesting as I think what we're doing with high-dose psilocybin or psychedelics to treat depression.
这并不像我想象的那样有趣，我们用大剂量裸盖菇素或迷幻药来治疗抑郁症。
If this is developed and there's a reality, it would be more like perhaps a better SSRI, a better Prozac.
如果这一技术得以开发并成为现实，它可能更像是一种更好的 SSRI，一种更好的百忧解。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Which are similar.
哪些是相似的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That being said, we need more tools than fewer tools in the toolbox.
话虽这么说，我们需要工具箱中更多的工具而不是更少的工具。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it shouldn't be that surprise.
这不应该那么令人惊讶。
Even before, going back to the tricyclics and the MAO inhibitors, going back to the '50s, augmenting extracellular serotonin in one way or another, for many people, leads to a reduction in depressive symptoms.
甚至在此之前，回到三环类药物和 MAO 抑制剂，回到 50 年代，对许多人来说，以某种方式增加细胞外血清素可以减轻抑郁症状。
It wouldn't be that crazy for chronically stimulating a subtype of serotonin receptor that you have an antidepressant effect.
长期刺激血清素受体亚型并不会产生抗抑郁作用。
So I think if I had put my bets on it, that if there's anything real, it is in that category.
所以我想，如果我下注的话，如果有什么真实的东西，它就属于这一类。
Although I'm very open to maybe there is something to the creativity, to the improved cognition, which covers many domains in and of itself.
尽管我对创造力和认知能力的提高持非常开放的态度，这本身就涵盖了许多领域。
But my greatest hopes are on the antidepressant effects.
但我最大的希望是抗抑郁作用。
That said, in the big picture, I think all of the most interesting thing about psychedelics are the heroic doses.
也就是说，从大局来看，我认为迷幻药最有趣的地方在于它的英雄剂量。
The idea that you can give something one, two, three times, and you see improvements in depression months later-
你可以给予某样东西一次、两次、三次，几个月后你就会看到抑郁症的改善——
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and in addiction, over a year later, and with these people dealing with potentially terminal illness.
一年多后，他们陷入了毒瘾，并与这些患有潜在绝症的人打交道。
I'm interested in big effects.
我对大效果感兴趣。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Right.
对。
I want to make sure that I ask you about the other really important mission that you're involved in with respect to psychedelics, which is not about depression per se, but is about neurologic injury or head injury.
我想确保我问你的是你参与的与致幻剂有关的另一个非常重要的任务，这与抑郁症本身无关，而是关于神经损伤或头部损伤。
We always think sports, but there are many people who make a living in a way that is, over time, is detrimental to their brain.
我们总是想到运动，但很多人的谋生方式随着时间的推移对他们的大脑有害。
What do you think is the potential for these compounds, particularly psilocybin, but other compounds as well, for the treatment and possible even reversal of neurological injuries?
您认为这些化合物（尤其是裸盖菇素）以及其他化合物在治疗甚至可能逆转神经损伤方面的潜力是什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There are anecdotes of people saying that that psychedelics have helped heal their brain.
有传闻说，迷幻药有助于治愈他们的大脑。
They've been in one of these situations, like in sports, a sport where there's repetitive head impact, and they're claiming that using psychedelics has actually improved their cognitive function, for example, improved their memory.
他们曾经经历过其中一种情况，比如在体育运动中，这是一种重复性头部撞击的运动，他们声称使用迷幻药实际上改善了他们的认知功能，例如，改善了他们的记忆力。
If you take these anecdotes and you combine it way across orders of analysis to the rodent research from several labs like David Olson, Brian Roth, these folks that have shown different forms of neuroplasticity unfolding, those effects may be at play in the psychiatric treatments that we're dealing with.
如果你把这些轶事和大卫·奥尔森（David Olson）、布莱恩·罗斯（Brian Roth）等几个实验室的啮齿动物研究的分析顺序结合起来，这些人已经表现出了不同形式的神经可塑性，那么这些影响可能会在我们正在处理的精神病治疗中发挥作用。
We don't know that.
我们不知道这一点。
It seems like a decent guess, and we're going to be figuring out whether that's the case.
这似乎是一个不错的猜测，我们将弄清楚情况是否如此。
But another potential that sets up is that maybe that's what's going on with these claims of improvements from neurological issues, that there's actually a repair of the brain from injuries underlying situations where there's repetitive head impact.
但另一个潜在的可能性是，也许这就是这些神经系统问题改善的说法所发生的情况，实际上，大脑在重复头部撞击的情况下受到的伤害得到了修复。
Perhaps there's a potential for helping folks recover from stroke and disorders like that.
也许有可能帮助人们从中风和类似疾病中康复。
It is more exploratory, but what I'm hoping to do is some work with retired athletes who have been exposed by the nature of their sport, for example, MMA athletes in the UFC who have been exposed to repetitive head impacts like a lot of sports expose people to, and who are retired from the sport and are suffering from, say, depression, which can in part result from that history of head impact.
这是更具探索性的，但我希望做的是与那些因运动性质而受到影响的退役运动员进行一些工作，例如，UFC 中的 MMA 运动员，他们像许多运动一样遭受过重复的头部撞击，以及从这项运动退役并患有抑郁症的人，这在一定程度上可能是由于头部撞击的历史造成的。
See if we can fix the depression, but then also, as a cherry on top and a more exploratory aim, see if we can have evidence of improvement in cognitive function and associate, like using MRI, see if it affects gray matter over time, these types of things, to see if there are actually some evidence of this more direct repair of the brain.
看看我们是否可以修复抑郁症，但作为一个更进一步的探索性目标，看看我们是否可以有认知功能改善的证据，并结合起来，比如使用核磁共振成像，看看它是否会随着时间的推移影响灰质，这些类型的东西，看看是否确实有一些证据表明这种更直接的大脑修复。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But again, it is very sort of like we've got some rodent data, we've got some human anecdotes.
但同样，这很像我们有一些啮齿动物数据，我们有一些人类轶事。
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
We will acknowledge it's early days, and we look forward to seeing the data.
我们承认现在还处于早期阶段，我们期待看到数据。
I appreciate how cautious you are and tentative you are.
我很欣赏你的谨慎和试探。
You're not drawing any conclusions.
你没有得出任何结论。
Thank you so much for your time-
非常感谢您抽出时间-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you, Andrew
谢谢你，安德鲁
Dr. Matthew Johnson:
马修·约翰逊博士：
...
...
for your knowledge, and I think you put it best earlier, for holding the candle in a very dark time, and then now there's light.
据你所知，我认为你之前说得最好，在非常黑暗的时刻举起蜡烛，然后现在就有了光。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
"I didn't like what you said," Odin pauses, "about the future." This is the love story of real Hinge couple Odin and Edward, written and read by me, Curtis Garner.
“我不喜欢你所说的，”奥丁停顿了一下，“关于未来。”这是真实的铰链夫妇奥丁和爱德华的爱情故事，由我柯蒂斯·加纳撰写和阅读。
Listen to the free audiobook now.
立即收听免费有声读物。