Essentials: Using Hypnosis to Enhance Mental & Physical Health & Performance | Dr. David Spiegel
Andrew Huberman: Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials, where we revisit past episodes for the most potent and actionable science-based tools for mental health, physical health, and performance.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：欢迎来到胡伯曼实验室要点，在这里我们回顾过去的剧集，寻找针对心理健康、身体健康和表现的最有效、最可操作的基于科学的工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
And now, for my discussion with Dr. David Spiegel.
现在，我与大卫·斯皮格尔博士进行了讨论。
David, thank you so much for being here.
大卫，非常感谢你来到这里。
David Spiegel: Andrew, my pleasure.
大卫·斯皮格尔：安德鲁，我很高兴。
Andrew Huberman: Can you tell us what is hypnosis?
安德鲁·休伯曼：你能告诉我们什么是催眠吗？
David Spiegel: Hypnosis is a state of highly focused attention.
大卫·斯皮格尔：催眠是一种高度集中注意力的状态。
It's something like looking through the telephoto lens of a camera in consciousness.
这有点像在意识中通过相机的长焦镜头观看。
What you see, you see with great detail, but devoid of context.
你所看到的，你看到的非常详细，但缺乏上下文。
If you've had the experience of getting so caught up in a good movie that you forget you're watching a movie and enter the imagined world, you're part of the movie, not part of the audience, you're experiencing it, you're not evaluating it, that's a hypnotic-like experience that many people have in their everyday lives.
如果你有过这样的经历：沉浸在一部好电影中，以至于你忘记了自己正在看一部电影，进入了想象的世界，你是电影的一部分，而不是观众的一部分，你是在体验它，你不是在评价它，这是很多人在日常生活中都有过的催眠般的体验。
Andrew Huberman: If I'm watching a sports game, and I'm really wrapped up in the game, but I'm also in touch with how it makes me feel in my body, kind of registering the excitement or the anticipation, is that a state of hypnosis also?
安德鲁·胡伯曼：如果我正在观看一场体育比赛，我真的很沉浸在比赛中，但我也能体会到比赛让我在身体中感受到的感觉，记录下兴奋或期待，这也是一种催眠状态吗？
David Spiegel: To the extent that your somatic, your body experience is a part of the sport event that you're engaged with, I'd say that is a self-altering hypnotic experience.
大卫·斯皮格尔：就你的躯体体验而言，你的身体体验是你参与的体育赛事的一部分，我想说这是一种自我改变的催眠体验。
If your physical reactions are distracting you, or make you think about something else, that's when it's less hypnotic-like and more just one of a series of experiences.
如果你的身体反应分散了你的注意力，或者让你思考其他事情，那么它就不那么像催眠了，而更像是一系列体验中的一个。
Andrew Huberman: I think, for most people, when they hear hypnosis, or they think about hypnosis, they think of stage hypnosis.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为，对于大多数人来说，当他们听到催眠，或者想到催眠时，他们会想到舞台催眠。
David Spiegel: Right.
大卫·斯皮格尔：对。
Andrew Huberman: They think of somebody with a pendant going back and forth.
安德鲁·休伯曼：他们想到的是一个带着吊坠来回走动的人。
Could you contrast the sort of hypnosis that you do in the clinical setting with the sort of hypnosis that a stage hypnotist does?
您能否将您在临床环境中进行的催眠与舞台催眠师进行的催眠进行对比？
David Spiegel: I don't like stage hypnosis.
大卫·斯皮格尔：我不喜欢舞台催眠。
You're making fools out of people, and you're using the fact...
你在愚弄人们，而且你在利用事实......
And that's what scares people about hypnosis.
这就是人们对催眠感到恐惧的原因。
They think you're losing control.
他们认为你正在失去控制。
You're gaining control.
你正在获得控制权。
Self-hypnosis is a way of enhancing your control over your mind and your body.
自我催眠是增强对自己的思想和身体的控制的一种方法。
It can work very well, but because it gives you a kind of cognitive flexibility, you're able to shift sets very easily, to give up judging and evaluating the way you usually do, and see something from a different point of view.
它可以很好地发挥作用，但因为它给了你一种认知灵活性，你可以很容易地改变设置，放弃你通常做的判断和评估方式，并从不同的角度看待事物。
That's a great therapeutic opportunity.
这是一个很好的治疗机会。
But if misused, it could be a danger, too, and that's what scares people about it.
但如果滥用，它也可能带来危险，这就是人们对此感到恐惧的原因。
It is that very ability to suspend critical judgment, and just have an experience, and see what happens.
这就是暂停批判性判断，只是体验一下，看看会发生什么的能力。
It's an ability that, if people learn to recognize and understand it, can be a tremendous therapeutic tool.
如果人们学会认识和理解这种能力，它可以成为一种巨大的治疗工具。
Andrew Huberman: Do we know what sorts of brain areas are active during the induction, let's call it the deep-hypnosis, and then, what's shutting off or changing as people exit hypnosis?
安德鲁·休伯曼：我们是否知道在诱导过程中哪些大脑区域处于活跃状态，我们称之为深度催眠，然后，当人们退出催眠时，哪些大脑区域会关闭或发生变化？
David Spiegel: The first is turning down activity in the dorsal anterior cingulate cortex (dACC).
David Spiegel：第一个是降低背侧前扣带皮层 (dACC) 的活动。
So, the dACC is in the central front-middle part of the brain, as you well know, and it's part of what we call the salience network.
所以，众所周知，dACC 位于大脑的中前部，它是我们所说的显着网络的一部分。
It's a conflict detector.
这是一个冲突检测器。
So, if you're engaged in work, and you hear a loud noise that you think might be a gunshot, that's your anterior cingulate cortex saying, "Hey, wait a minute.
所以，如果你正在工作，并且听到一声巨响，你认为可能是枪声，那么你的前扣带皮层就会说：“嘿，等一下。
There's some potential danger over there.
那里有一些潜在的危险。
You better pay attention to it." So, it compares what you're doing with what else is going on, and helps you decide what to do.
你最好注意一下。”因此，它将您正在做的事情与其他正在发生的事情进行比较，并帮助您决定要做什么。
And as you can imagine, turning down activity in that region makes it less likely that you'll be distracted and pulled out of whatever you're in.
正如您可以想象的那样，拒绝该区域的活动可以使您不太可能分心并脱离您所在的任何地方。
So, two other things happen when people are hypnotized.
因此，当人们被催眠时，还会发生两件事。
One is that that DLPFC has higher functional connectivity with the insula, another part of the salience network, it's a part of the mind-body control system, sensitive to what's happening in the body.
一是 DLPFC 与岛叶具有更高的功能连接，岛叶是显着网络的另一部分，它是身心控制系统的一部分，对体内发生的事情敏感。
It's part of the pain network as well.
它也是疼痛网络的一部分。
But it's also a region of the brain where you can control things in your body that you wouldn't think you could.
但它也是大脑的一个区域，在这里你可以控制你身体中你认为你无法做到的事情。
For example, we did a study years ago where we took people who are highly hypnotizable, hypnotized them, and told them to...
例如，我们几年前做了一项研究，我们找了一些高度容易催眠的人，对他们进行催眠，然后告诉他们……
We went on an imaginary culinary tour.
我们进行了一次想象中的美食之旅。
So, they would eat their favorite foods, and we found that they increased their gastric acid secretion by 87%.
所以，他们会吃自己喜欢的食物，我们发现他们的胃酸分泌量增加了87%。
So, their stomach was acting as though it was about to get...
所以，他们的胃表现得好像即将……
I mean, there was one woman, it was so vivid for her that halfway through she said, "Let's stop.
我的意思是，有一个女人，这对她来说是如此生动，以至于中途她说：“我们停下来吧。
I'm full." You know, eating these imaginary...
我吃饱了。”你知道，吃这些想象中的...
Andrew Huberman: Having never eaten any actual food.
Andrew Huberman：从未吃过任何真正的食物。
David Spiegel: Having never eaten anything.
大卫·斯皮格尔：从来没有吃过任何东西。
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman: Incredible.
安德鲁·休伯曼：难以置信。
David Spiegel: And then, we got them to relax and think of anything but food or drink.
大卫·斯皮格尔：然后，我们让他们放松并思考除了食物或饮料之外的任何事情。
And we got a 40% decrease in gastric acid secretion.
我们的胃酸分泌减少了 40%。
And that was DLPFC, through the insula, telling the stomach, "You're getting food" or "You're not getting food." And even when we injected them with pentagastrin, which triggers gastric acid release, and even then, in the hypnosis condition, they had a 19% reduction in gastric acid.
这就是 DLPFC，通过脑岛告诉胃，“你正在获取食物”或“你没有获取食物”。即使我们给它们注射五肽胃泌素，它会引发胃酸释放，即使如此，在催眠状态下，它们的胃酸也减少了 19%。
So, the brain has this amazing ability to control what's going on in the body in ways that we don't think we have the ability to control.
因此，大脑具有这种惊人的能力，可以以我们认为自己无法控制的方式控制体内发生的事情。
That's just one example.
这只是一个例子。
So, that's the DLPFC-insula connection.
这就是 DLPFC-岛叶连接。
The third thing that happens is you have inverse functional connectivity between the DLPFC and the posterior cingulate cortex.
第三件事是 DLPFC 和后扣带皮层之间存在反向功能连接。
The posterior cingulate is part of the default mode network.
后扣带回是默认模式网络的一部分。
It's in the back of the brain.
它位于大脑后部。
And it's an area whose activity goes down, for example, in meditators.
这是一个活动下降的区域，例如冥想者。
And in meditation, you're supposed to be selfless.
在冥想中，你应该是无私的。
The self is an illusion.
自我是一种幻觉。
You're supposed to let it dissolve and just experience things.
你应该让它消失并只是体验事物。
And when you're doing that, the posterior cingulate is decreasing in activity.
当你这样做时，后扣带回的活动就会减少。
The inverse connection is, "I'm doing something, but I'm not thinking about what it means for me.
反向联系是，“我正在做某事，但我没有考虑这对我意味着什么。
I may not even remember much of it.
我什至可能不记得其中的大部分内容。
If I do, I don't care that much about it." And so, that is part of the dissociation that occurs with hypnosis.
如果是的话，我也不会那么在意。”所以，这是催眠中发生的分离的一部分。
So, it's how you put things outside of conscious awareness and don't worry about what it means.
所以，这就是你如何将事情置于意识之外，而不用担心它意味着什么。
It also adds to cognitive flexibility.
它还增加了认知灵活性。
You know, if you're thinking, "Well, people like me don't usually do this," that may inhibit you from enacting a new form of psychotherapy, for example, that you've never done before.
你知道，如果你在想，“好吧，像我这样的人通常不会这样做”，这可能会阻止你实施一种新的心理治疗形式，例如，你以前从未做过的。
But if you're having this decreased activity in the part of your brain that reflects on what it means, you're more likely to be cognitively flexible and willing to give it a try.
但如果你大脑中反映其含义的部分活动减少，你的认知就更有可能变得灵活并愿意尝试。
And that's one of the therapeutic advantages of hypnosis as well.
这也是催眠的治疗优势之一。
Andrew Huberman: Do people with ADHD display disruptions in elements of these networks?
Andrew Huberman：患有多动症的人是否会表现出这些网络元素的破坏？
And has hypnosis ever been used to enhance people's ability to focus and hold attention, because that's such a built-in component of the hypnotic state?
催眠是否曾经被用来增强人们集中注意力和保持注意力的能力，因为这是催眠状态的一个固有组成部分？
David Spiegel: There's sort of two ways to think about it.
大卫·斯皮格尔：有两种方式来思考这个问题。
In terms of enhancing focus, yes, it has been very helpful in teaching people to just prepare your mind to narrow in and focus on something.
就增强注意力而言，是的，这对于教导人们准备好缩小范围并专注于某件事非常有帮助。
And when you're really engaged in reading something, or you're writing a...
当你真正专注于阅读某些东西，或者你正在写...
Sometimes I'm thinking, "Oh, God, I have to do this for another hour." Other times, an hour will go by, and I'll think, "Hey, great," because when you're in it, it feels game-like to you.
有时我会想，“天哪，我还得再做一个小时。”其他时候，一个小时过去了，我会想，“嘿，太棒了”，因为当你身处其中时，感觉就像游戏一样。
You know, you're just assembling the parts of the puzzle and putting them together.
你知道，你只是将拼图的各个部分组装起来并将它们组合在一起。
It's fun.
很有趣。
You just get absorbed.
你就会全神贯注。
For me, that's a hypnotic-like experience.
对我来说，这是一种催眠般的体验。
When I'm having trouble, when I'm struggling, sometimes doing things like self-hypnosis can help.
当我遇到麻烦时，当我挣扎时，有时自我催眠之类的事情会有所帮助。
It's possible that for some people with that disorder, training in self-hypnosis might help.
对于一些患有这种疾病的人来说，自我催眠训练可能会有所帮助。
But we'd have to see how hypnotizable they were and take it from there.
但我们必须看看他们有多容易被催眠，然后从那里开始。
Andrew Huberman: What sorts of things have you used hypnosis successfully for, or have others used clinical hypnosis for?
安德鲁·胡伯曼：你成功地使用催眠做了什么事情，或者其他人使用了临床催眠做了什么？
And are there any particular areas of psychiatric challenges or illnesses, I guess they're called, that are particularly amenable to hypnotic treatment?
是否有任何特定的精神挑战或疾病（我猜他们被称为这些疾病）特别适合催眠治疗？
David Spiegel: Mm-hmm.
大卫·斯皮格尔：嗯嗯。
Yes, there are.
是的，有。
We found it very helpful for stress reduction.
我们发现它对于减轻压力非常有帮助。
That mind-body connection is very helpful because part of the problem with stress is your perception.
这种身心联系非常有帮助，因为压力问题的部分原因在于你的感知。
You mentioned it earlier in a sort of good sense.
您之前提到过这一点，从某种意义上来说是好的。
You're at a football game or something, and you feel the physical reaction.
当你在观看一场足球比赛或其他比赛时，你会感受到身体的反应。
That can be a reinforcing thing.
这可能是一个强化的事情。
"Wow, this is exciting.
“哇，这太令人兴奋了。
Let's do it." It can also be very distracting.
让我们开始吧。”它也可能非常分散注意力。
You notice it in your body.
你会在你的身体里注意到它。
Your body tenses up.
你的身体紧张起来。
You start to sweat.
你开始出汗。
The sympathetic nervous system goes.
交感神经系统运转。
Your heart rate goes up.
你的心率会上升。
When you notice that, you think, "Oh, God, this is really bad." And then you feel worse, so it's like a snowball rolling downhill.
当你注意到这一点时，你会想：“哦，上帝，这真的很糟糕。”然后你感觉更糟，就像雪球滚下山一样。
Hypnosis can be very helpful in dissociating somatic reaction from psychological reaction.
催眠对于区分躯体反应和心理反应非常有帮助。
So, we teach people to imagine their body floating somewhere safe and comfortable, like a bath, a lake, a hot tub, or floating in space.
因此，我们教人们想象他们的身体漂浮在安全舒适的地方，比如浴缸、湖泊、热水浴缸，或者漂浮在太空中。
And then picture the problem that's stressing them on an imaginary screen, with the rule that no matter what you see on the screen, you keep your body comfortable.
然后在想象的屏幕上想象给他们带来压力的问题，规则是无论你在屏幕上看到什么，你都要保持身体舒适。
So, at this point, you still can't control the stress, but you can control your physical reaction to it.
所以，此时，你仍然无法控制压力，但你可以控制你对它的身体反应。
And that starts you feeling more in control.
这会让你感觉更有掌控力。
"At least there's one thing I can manage." And then you can use it to think through or visualize through, one thing you might do about that stressor.
“至少有一件事我能做到。”然后你可以用它来思考或想象，你可以对压力源做的一件事。
So, hypnosis is very helpful in controlling mind-body interaction in relation to stress.
因此，催眠对于控制与压力相关的身心互动非常有帮助。
It's very helpful for people to get to sleep.
对于人们的睡眠有很大的帮助。
I'm getting emails from people who said, "You know, I haven't slept right in 15 years, and now for the first time, you know, I'm listening to your app, and I can sleep at night."
我收到一些人发来的电子邮件，他们说：“你知道，我已经 15 年没有睡过好觉了，现在第一次，你知道，我在听你的应用程序，我晚上可以睡觉了。”
Andrew Huberman: I've been using the self-hypnosis for sleep for a long time, and now the Reveri app.
Andrew Huberman：我长期以来一直使用自我催眠来睡眠，现在使用 Reveri 应用程序。
And we'll talk about our relationship to the Reveri app and its uses.
我们将讨论我们与 Reveri 应用程序的关系及其用途。
I find it incredibly useful.
我发现它非常有用。
David Spiegel: Right.
大卫·斯皮格尔：对。
Andrew Huberman: It's kind of a training up of these networks, right?
Andrew Huberman：这是对这些网络的培训，对吧？
David Spiegel: That's right.
大卫·斯皮格尔：没错。
Andrew Huberman: So, with repeated use of self-hypnosis, one could imagine that these networks are getting stronger.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：因此，通过反复使用自我催眠，人们可以想象这些网络正在变得越来越强大。
David Spiegel: I would think so.
大卫·斯皮格尔：我想是的。
We don't have evidence of that yet.
我们还没有证据证明这一点。
But long-term potentiation provides a pathway, and you've described them on your program a number of times, that allow for repeated activation of a network to actually build new connections that work.
但是长期增强提供了一条途径，并且您已经在程序中多次描述了它们，它允许重复激活网络以实际建立有效的新连接。
And at the least, even from a learning and memory point of view, if you start to acquire memories about a problem...
至少，即使从学习和记忆的角度来看，如果你开始获得有关问题的记忆......
So, one thing we use hypnosis for is treating phobias, for example.
例如，我们使用催眠的一件事就是治疗恐惧症。
And the problem with people who have phobias, like airplane phobias or crossing a bridge, or being up high, is that the more they avoid it, the more the only source of associations and memories is their fear.
对于患有飞机恐惧症、过桥恐惧症或高处恐惧症等恐惧症的人来说，问题在于，他们越是回避这些恐惧症，联想和记忆的唯一来源就越是他们的恐惧。
They don't have any good experiences with it, because they avoid it.
他们对此没有任何好的经验，因为他们回避它。
You know, it's like get back on the horse after you fall off kind of thing.
你知道，这就像摔倒后重新骑上马一样。
And with hypnosis, if you can start people, able to manage their anxiety enough that they can have a wider array of experiences, they start to have a network of associations that isn't so negative and may even be positive.
通过催眠，如果你能让人们能够足够地控制他们的焦虑，使他们能够拥有更广泛的经历，他们就会开始拥有一个不那么消极、甚至可能是积极的联想网络。
Andrew Huberman: In therapy, the narrative is a huge component.
安德鲁·休伯曼：在治疗中，叙事是一个重要的组成部分。
David Spiegel: Right.
大卫·斯皮格尔：对。
Andrew Huberman: And in hypnosis, narrative is a huge component.
安德鲁·休伯曼：在催眠中，叙事是一个重要的组成部分。
David Spiegel: Right.
大卫·斯皮格尔：对。
Andrew Huberman: So, it must be that the brain state is what is really different.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，大脑状态一定是真正不同的。
Because I think people who have trauma or phobias certainly could have a conversation about it.
因为我认为有创伤或恐惧症的人当然可以谈论它。
Some of them might freeze up, some of them might lose their articulation, and so forth.
其中一些可能会冻结，一些可能会失去清晰度，等等。
But what is different about that state that combines with narrative, you think, to allow these underlying neural networks to engage or to change?
但是，您认为，与叙事相结合以允许这些底层神经网络参与或改变的状态有什么不同？
David Spiegel: I think of this as unsystematic desensitization, because you're changing mental states.
大卫·斯皮格尔：我认为这是非系统性的脱敏，因为你正在改变精神状态。
And I think there's more and more evidence that mental state change itself has therapeutic potential.
我认为越来越多的证据表明精神状态改变本身具有治疗潜力。
We're seeing that with ketamine treating depression, a dissociogenic drug.
我们在治疗抑郁症的氯胺酮（一种解离药物）中看到了这一点。
We know it, every morning when we wake up, that problem.
每天早上我们醒来时，我们都知道这个问题。
You know, you made the mistake of reading a nasty email at 11:00 PM.
您知道，您犯了一个错误，在晚上 11:00 阅读了一封令人讨厌的电子邮件。
You didn't know what to do.
你不知道该怎么办。
You wake up in the morning thinking, "Oh, that idiot.
你早上醒来时会想：“哦，那个白痴。
Yeah, here's what I'm going to do." You know?
是的，这就是我要做的。”你知道？
So, just changing the mental state itself has therapeutic potential.
因此，仅仅改变精神状态本身就具有治疗潜力。
And I think we underestimate our ability to regulate and change responses, to be cognitively, emotionally, and somatically flexible.
我认为我们低估了自己调节和改变反应的能力，以及在认知、情感和身体上保持灵活性的能力。
And so, we do things, you're right, that follow similar principles of facing a problem, seeing it from a different point of view.
所以，我们做事，你是对的，遵循类似的原则来面对问题，从不同的角度看待问题。
And then, find some way to reconnect to it, to substitute something that can make you feel good rather than bad, so that you activate other centers of the brain, like the mesolimbic reward system.
然后，找到某种方法来重新连接它，用一些能让你感觉良好而不是糟糕的东西来替代，这样你就可以激活大脑的其他中心，比如中脑边缘奖励系统。
And so, I do that with hypnosis, and you can do it much faster.
所以，我用催眠来做到这一点，你可以做得更快。
People don't think they can, but they can.
人们不认为他们可以，但他们可以。
If you're having, right now, that physical experience, "I'm thinking about this, but I'm not feeling as bad as I used to," that can be a powerful thing.
如果你现在有那种身体体验，“我正在考虑这个，但我感觉不像以前那么糟糕了”，这可能是一件很强大的事情。
And you can do it with hypnosis.
你可以通过催眠来做到这一点。
So, a woman came to see me, who had suffered an attempted rape.
于是，一位遭受强奸未遂的女士来找我。
It was getting dark.
天快黑了。
She was coming back from the grocery store, and this guy grabs her and wants to get her up into her apartment.
她从杂货店回来，这个家伙抓住了她，想把她带进公寓。
It's outside her apartment.
这是她的公寓外面。
And she starts fighting with him, and she winds up with a basilar skull fracture.
她开始与他打斗，最终导致颅底骨折。
He runs away.
他逃跑了。
The cops come.
警察来了。
Since she hadn't been raped, they left.
由于她没有被强奸，他们就离开了。
They weren't interested.
他们不感兴趣。
And she wanted to use hypnosis to get a better image of what this guy looked like, which is a painful, upsetting thing.
她想通过催眠来更好地了解这个家伙的样子，这是一件痛苦、令人不安的事情。
So, she was quite hypnotizable.
所以说，她是很容易被催眠的。
I got her floating.
我让她漂浮起来。
I say, "You're safe and comfortable now.
我说：“你现在安全、舒适了。
Nothing can happen that will harm your body.
不会发生任何会伤害您身体的事情。
But on the left side of the screen, I want you to picture this guy, and his approaching and what's happening." And she said, "I really...
但在屏幕的左侧，我希望你想象这个家伙，以及他的接近以及正在发生的事情。”她说：“我真的...
It was getting dark.
天快黑了。
I really can't see much of his facial features, but I do recognize something I hadn't allowed myself to remember.
我确实看不清他的面部特征，但我确实认出了一些我不允许自己记住的东西。
If he gets me upstairs, he doesn't just want to rape me, he's going to kill me." And so, in some ways, what she was seeing was even worse.
如果他把我带到楼上，他不仅想强奸我，他还会杀了我。”因此，在某些方面，她所看到的情况甚至更糟。
So, you're thinking, "Good, Spiegel, you made her even more frightened than she was before." But as you had pointed out in your PTSD stress lecture, you've got to confront the trauma to restructure your understanding of it.
所以，你会想，“很好，斯皮格尔，你让她比以前更害怕了。”但正如您在创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）压力讲座中指出的那样，您必须面对创伤才能重建您对它的理解。
So, on the other side of the screen, I had her picture, "What are you doing to protect yourself?" And everybody in a trauma situation engages in some strategy of self-protection.
所以，在屏幕的另一边，我看到了她的照片，“你在做什么来保护自己？”每个遭受创伤的人都会采取一些自我保护策略。
You know, that's the salience network kicking in.
你知道，这就是显着网络开始发挥作用的地方。
And she said, "You know what?
她说：“你知道吗？
He's surprised that I'm fighting that hard.
他对我如此努力地战斗感到惊讶。
He didn't think I would." And so, she realized, on one hand, that it was even worse than she thought it was, but on the other hand, that she actually probably saved her life.
他认为我不会。”于是，她意识到，一方面，事情比她想象的还要糟糕，但另一方面，她实际上很可能救了自己的命。
And so, it was a way of helping her restructure her experience of the trauma and make it more tolerable.
因此，这是帮助她重建创伤经历并使其更容易忍受的一种方式。
So, that helped with her.
所以，这对她有帮助。
She couldn't identify the guy, but it helped her restructure and understand her experience.
她无法辨认出这个人的身份，但这帮助她重新构建并理解了自己的经历。
And that's something that you can do, in just talking straight out psychotherapy.
这是你可以做的，直接谈论心理治疗。
But sometimes you can do it a hell of a lot faster and more efficiently using hypnosis.
但有时使用催眠可以更快、更有效地做到这一点。
And there is one randomized trial out of Israel that shows that adding hypnosis to PTSD treatment actually improves outcome.
以色列的一项随机试验表明，在 PTSD 治疗中加入催眠实际上可以改善治疗效果。
So, it's a way of accomplishing things that we understand in the broader psychotherapy world, but much more quickly and sometimes effectively.
因此，这是一种我们在更广泛的心理治疗领域所理解的完成任务的方法，但速度更快，有时甚至更有效。
There's one thing I might add, Andrew, and that is, you know, there's a notion...
安德鲁，我可以补充一件事，那就是，你知道，有一个概念......
Andrew Huberman: Please.
安德鲁·休伯曼：拜托。
David Spiegel: The late Gordon Bower, brilliant cognitive psychologist and one of the founders of cognitive psychology at Stanford.
大卫·斯皮格尔：已故的戈登·鲍尔，杰出的认知心理学家，斯坦福大学认知心理学的创始人之一。
Gordon helped establish the concept of state-dependent memory, that when you're in a certain mental state, you enhance your ability to remember things about it.
戈登帮助建立了状态依赖记忆的概念，即当你处于某种精神状态时，你记住该状态的能力就会增强。
And sort of the bad example of that is the drunk who hides the bottle and can't remember where he put it until he gets drunk again, that he's in that same mental state.
一个不好的例子是醉汉把瓶子藏起来，不记得自己把它放在哪里，直到他再次喝醉，他处于同样的精神状态。
People go into dissociative states when they're traumatized.
当人们受到创伤时，他们会进入分离状态。
So, in a way, hypnosis is helping them remember and deal with the memories better, because they're more in the mental state that is more like what happened.
所以，在某种程度上，催眠正在帮助他们更好地记住和处理记忆，因为他们更处于更接近发生的事情的精神状态。
And most rape victims will tell you, "I was floating above my body feeling sorry for the woman being assaulted below." People in traumatic episodes, they just say, "I blank out.
大多数强奸受害者会告诉你，“我漂浮在我的身体上方，为下面被袭击的女人感到难过。”经历创伤事件的人，他们只会说：“我一片空白。
I don't know what's happening.
我不知道发生了什么事。
I'm on autopilot." And that's a kind of self-hypnotic state.
我处于自动驾驶状态。”这就是一种自我催眠状态。
So, when you use hypnosis to help them deal with a traumatic memory, you're making the state they're in, right there in your office, with you, more congruent to the state they were likely in, when the trauma happened.
因此，当你使用催眠来帮助他们处理创伤记忆时，你就让他们在你的办公室里和你一起所处的状态，与创伤发生时他们可能所处的状态更加一致。
And I think that is part of what helps facilitate treatment of trauma-related disorders.
我认为这有助于促进创伤相关疾病的治疗。
In a way, the principle, Andrew, is like you need to re-confront a traumatic situation before you can modulate your associations to it.
在某种程度上，安德鲁，这个原则就像你需要重新面对一个创伤性的情况，然后才能调整你的联想。
And then figure out how you can approach that problem, or how you did approach that problem from a different point of view.
然后弄清楚如何解决该问题，或者如何从不同的角度解决该问题。
And I think what happens is that people are sometimes too good at being able to separate themselves from the recollection.
我认为，人们有时太善于将自己从回忆中分离出来。
So, it's in there somewhere.
所以，它就在那里的某个地方。
It's out of sight, but it's not out of mind.
它是看不见的，但它却不是心不在焉的。
It's having effects on you, but you can't deal with it.
它对你产生影响，但你无法应对。
You can't reprocess it.
你无法重新处理它。
The issue is control.
问题在于控制。
And hypnosis, which has this terrible reputation of taking away control, is actually a superb way of enhancing your control over mind and body.
催眠虽然有着夺走控制的可怕名声，但它实际上是增强你对身心的控制的绝佳方法。
Andrew Huberman: It reminds me that naming is so important.
Andrew Huberman：这提醒我命名是如此重要。
You almost wonder if self-hypnosis and clinical hypnosis had been called something else, that it would have been separated out from stage hypnosis, in a way that would make it less scary, weird, and complicated for people to embrace.
你几乎想知道自我催眠和临床催眠是否被称为其他名称，它是否会与舞台催眠分开，以某种方式使其不那么可怕、奇怪和复杂，让人们接受。
David Spiegel: Yeah.
大卫·斯皮格尔：是的。
Andrew Huberman: You know, the part of the reason for having this discussion is I've had great experiences with hypnosis.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你知道，进行这次讨论的部分原因是我在催眠方面拥有丰富的经验。
I've seen the data.
我看过数据。
We're talking about a lot of clinical examples.
我们正在谈论很多临床例子。
It's incredibly powerful, and it boils right down to neural brain states.
它非常强大，并且可以归结为神经大脑状态。
David Spiegel: Right.
大卫·斯皮格尔：对。
Andrew Huberman: And I think in the years to come, it's going to become more widespread.
Andrew Huberman：我认为在未来几年，它将会变得更加普遍。
You've described some examples of people getting relief very quickly.
您描述了一些人们很快得到缓解的例子。
David Spiegel: Right.
大卫·斯皮格尔：对。
Andrew Huberman: How permanent are those changes?
Andrew Huberman：这些变化有多持久？
Is there a need for follow-up?
是否需要跟进？
And then, is it necessary to work with a clinical hypnotist?
那么，是否有必要与临床催眠师合作呢？
And is it better to do that than self-hypnosis, and so on and so forth?
这样做是否比自我催眠等等更好？
David Spiegel: Most people start by coming to see a clinician like me.
大卫·斯皮格尔：大多数人一开始都是来看像我这样的临床医生的。
It's better to see someone who has licensing and training in their professional discipline, somebody who can really assess what your problem is, and make sure that you're not talking someone into reducing their chest pain rather than getting their coronary artery problem...
最好去见一个在其专业领域获得许可并接受过培训的人，一个能够真正评估您的问题所在的人，并确保您不是在说服某人减轻胸痛，而不是让他们患上冠状动脉问题......
Andrew Huberman: Because they could have a real issue there.
Andrew Huberman：因为他们可能会遇到真正的问题。
David Spiegel: They could, right.
大卫·斯皮格尔：他们可以，对吧。
Andrew Huberman: That hypnosis might adjust, but wouldn't deal with the deeper underlying issue.
安德鲁·休伯曼：催眠可能会调整，但无法解决更深层次的根本问题。
David Spiegel: Right.
大卫·斯皮格尔：对。
That's right.
这是正确的。
And typically, when I use it with people, I often only see them once or twice or periodically, but not every week, and certainly not every day, if they have a pain problem.
通常，当我与人们一起使用它时，我通常只会见到他们一两次或定期，但不是每周，当然也不是每天，如果他们有疼痛问题。
And hypnosis is very helpful for pain.
而且催眠对于缓解疼痛很有帮助。
And so, what I'm doing is identifying how hypnotizable they are.
所以，我正在做的是确定他们有多容易被催眠。
I give them a standard brief test of their ability to experience hypnosis, and then going through a self-hypnosis exercise with them, to deal with the problem, seeing how they respond to it, and then teaching them how to do it for themselves.
我给他们一个标准的简短测试，测试他们体验催眠的能力，然后和他们一起进行自我催眠练习，处理问题，看看他们对此有何反应，然后教他们如何自己做。
Now, we've developed an app, Reveri, that can teach people and step them through dealing with pain, stress, focus, insomnia, and help people eat better and stop smoking.
现在，我们开发了一款名为 Reveri 的应用程序，它可以教导人们并引导他们应对疼痛、压力、注意力集中、失眠，并帮助人们吃得更好和戒烟。
But we have elements that take about 15 minutes, and elements that just take one or two minutes, that people can refresh and reinforce.
但我们有一些需要大约 15 分钟的元素，也有一些只需要一两分钟的元素，人们可以刷新和强化这些元素。
Andrew Huberman: Two-minute hypnosis.
安德鲁·休伯曼：两分钟催眠。
Or even one minute.
甚至一分钟。
David Spiegel: Yes, yes.
大卫·斯皮格尔：是的，是的。
And we're finding that two-thirds of the people find that even just the one-minute refresher helps them feel better.
我们发现，三分之二的人发现，即使只是一分钟的复习也能帮助他们感觉更好。
They're reporting they feel better.
他们报告说他们感觉好多了。
So, the nice thing is you will know very quickly whether it's likely to help you or not.
所以，好处是你很快就会知道它是否对你有帮助。
And if it is, you can learn to do it for yourself.
如果是的话，您可以学习自己做。
Andrew Huberman: Is there any evidence that hypnosis or self-hypnosis can be used for dealing with obsessive thoughts?
安德鲁·休伯曼：有没有证据表明催眠或自我催眠可以用来处理强迫性想法？
David Spiegel: Sometimes.
大卫·斯皮格尔：有时。
There are some very obsessional people who just turn out not to be that hypnotizable, yeah, and it's not random.
有一些非常痴迷的人，结果却并不是那么容易被催眠，是的，而且这不是随机的。
They tend to be so over-controlling of thought.
他们往往过度控制思想。
They're all busy evaluating rather than experiencing.
他们都忙于评估而不是体验。
It's kind of a balance we have to hit, and sometimes we get too emotional and too absorbed, and you're not with it enough to sort of see other possibilities.
这是我们必须达到的一种平衡，有时我们会变得过于情绪化、过于专注，而你却没有足够的时间去看到其他的可能性。
That can be a problem.
这可能是个问题。
But on the other hand, sometimes you're too rigid and controlled, and you don't let your emotions guide you to what you need to do to protect yourself or protect others.
但另一方面，有时你过于严格和控制，你不会让你的情绪引导你采取行动来保护自己或保护他人。
So, I would say, in general, that people with OCD are on the less hypnotizable side of the spectrum.
所以，我想说，一般来说，患有强迫症的人属于不太容易被催眠的一方。
They're less likely to allow themselves to engage in any...
他们不太可能允许自己参与任何...
And you know, the typical example is the checking with OCD, for example.
你知道，典型的例子就是强迫症检查。
They don't remember whether they locked the door or turned off the gas in the oven, and they keep going back, and they keep checking.
他们不记得是否锁上了门或关掉了烤箱里的煤气，他们不断地回去，不断地检查。
So, there, the evaluative component of the brain kind of overrides the experiential one.
因此，大脑的评价部分凌驾于经验部分之上。
And sometimes people can get some benefit, but they're not a group that I would select for being the most likely to respond to self-hypnotic approaches.
有时人们可以获得一些好处，但我不会选择他们作为最有可能对自我催眠方法做出反应的群体。
Andrew Huberman: Could you please tell us what hypnotizability is?
Andrew Huberman：您能告诉我们什么是催眠性吗？
How it's evaluated?
是如何评价的？
And what the Spiegel Eye-Roll Test is?
什么是明镜翻白眼测试？
David Spiegel: So, hypnotizability is just a capacity to have hypnotic experiences.
大卫·斯皮格尔：所以，可催眠性只是一种获得催眠体验的能力。
And we have a test called the Hypnotic Induction Profile, where we give a highly structured hypnotic experience.
我们有一个称为催眠诱导模式的测试，我们提供高度结构化的催眠体验。
About a third of adults are just not hypnotizable.
大约三分之一的成年人是无法被催眠的。
Two-thirds are.
三分之二是。
About 15% are extremely hypnotizable.
大约 15% 的人非常容易被催眠。
And we can measure that and give it a number from zero to ten.
我们可以测量它并给它一个从零到十的数字。
And that's very useful.
这非常有用。
People who are low to moderate hypnotizable like explanations about what you're doing, but then they can still get the benefit.
低到中度催眠能力的人喜欢解释你在做什么，但他们仍然可以获得好处。
So, it helps me guide the nature of my treatment with these people.
因此，它可以帮助我指导我对这些人的治疗方式。
Now, the Eye-Roll is...
现在，翻白眼是...
My father used to use an eye fixation induction.
我父亲曾经使用过眼睛注视诱导装置。
He used to say, "Look up at the ceiling."
他常说：“抬头看看天花板。”
Andrew Huberman: So that people who are listening and watching on video.
Andrew Huberman：以便那些正在收听和观看视频的人。
So, the Spiegel Eye-Roll Test involves looking up at the ceiling, so it's tilting the head back.
所以，明镜翻白眼测试涉及抬头看着天花板，所以它会向后倾斜头部。
I'm tilting my chin back and looking up at the ceiling now.
我现在把下巴向后倾斜，抬头看着天花板。
But I'm also directing my eyes upward, and my eyes are open, and then, the eye roll test involves then closing the eyelids while the eyes are open.
但我也将我的眼睛向上，我的眼睛是睁开的，然后，眼球转动测试包括在眼睛睁开时闭上眼睑。
David Spiegel: Right.
大卫·斯皮格尔：对。
Are open.
是开放的。
Andrew Huberman: And whether or not the eyes roll back, and as you said it, then you see sclera, the white part.
安德鲁·休伯曼：无论眼睛是否向后翻，正如你所说，你都会看到巩膜，即白色部分。
David Spiegel: You see sclera, the white part.
大卫·斯皮格尔：你看到巩膜，白色的部分。
Andrew Huberman: That means you're very hypnotizable or moderately hypnotizable.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这意味着你非常容易被催眠，或者中等程度容易被催眠。
David Spiegel: Right.
大卫·斯皮格尔：对。
Andrew Huberman: Whereas if the eyes move down and you see iris, the colored part of the eye, as the eyes close, less hypnotizable.
安德鲁·休伯曼：而如果眼睛向下移动，你会看到虹膜，即眼睛的有色部分，当眼睛闭上时，就不那么容易催眠了。
David Spiegel: Right.
大卫·斯皮格尔：对。
Right.
正确的。
You're asking the brain to do something difficult, to keep the eyes up while closing the eyelids.
你要求大脑做一些困难的事情，在闭上眼睑的同时保持眼睛向上。
And eye movements have a lot to do with levels of consciousness.
眼球运动与意识水平有很大关系。
You know, the periaqueductal gray surrounds these cranial nerve nuclei.
你知道，导水管周围的灰色包围着这些颅神经核。
And we close our eyes when we sleep.
当我们睡觉时，我们会闭上眼睛。
We have rapid eye movement when we dream.
当我们做梦时，我们的眼球运动很快。
Most drugs that affect the level of consciousness can affect eyes and eye movements, either the dilation or contraction of the pupils, depending on whether it's a stimulant or an opioid.
大多数影响意识水平的药物都会影响眼睛和眼球运动，即瞳孔扩张或收缩，具体取决于它是兴奋剂还是阿片类药物。
And there's an old Zen practice called "looking at the third eye," where you're looking up inside.
有一种古老的禅宗修行叫做“看第三只眼”，即你向上看向内心。
It's like there's a third eye between the other two in your forehead.
就好像你额头上的另外两只眼睛之间有第三只眼睛。
And I think it's because we're visual creatures.
我认为这是因为我们是视觉动物。
We're pretty pathetic from a physical point of view.
从身体的角度来看，我们非常可怜。
You know, many animals can outrun us, and/or outsmell us, or see...
你知道，许多动物可以跑得比我们快，和/或比我们闻起来，或者看到......
You know, eagles could read newsprint at 100 yards, and we can't.
你知道，老鹰可以在 100 码外阅读新闻纸，而我们不能。
So, our major defensive sensory input is vision.
因此，我们主要的防御性感官输入是视觉。
But the key issue is this, that normally when we close our eyes also, we're going to sleep.
但关键问题是，通常当我们闭上眼睛时，我们就会睡觉。
You're not worried about what's going on in the world anymore.
你不再担心世界上正在发生的事情。
Here, you're maintaining resting alertness.
在这里，您保持休息时的警觉性。
So, you're focusing, but you're turning inward.
所以，你在集中注意力，但你却在转向内心。
Andrew Huberman: Ah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：啊。
David Spiegel: That's an unusual state.
大卫·斯皮格尔：这是一种不寻常的状态。
Normally, we close our eyes periodically.
通常，我们会定期闭上眼睛。
We have to.
我们必须。
But when you close your eyes for some period of time, it's normally to go to sleep.
但当你闭上眼睛一段时间后，通常就是要睡觉了。
And you're not worried about detecting risk or threat.
而且您不必担心检测风险或威胁。
So, it's an interesting state because you're turning inward, basically.
所以，这是一个有趣的状态，因为基本上你正在转向内向。
You're looking up, you're shutting your eyes, and you're allowing whatever happens outside you to happen and focusing on what's going on inward.
你抬起头，闭上眼睛，让外面发生的一切都发生，并专注于内心发生的事情。
So, I think it's a signal to your brain to turn inward.
所以，我认为这是向你的大脑发出的向内转的信号。
Andrew Huberman: Something that's come up a lot is this idea of getting close to the phobia, getting close to the trauma, re-experiencing it as a portal, to then adjusting the response to it, and rewiring something so the troubling thing or the horrible thing is no longer as horrible to us.
安德鲁·休伯曼：经常出现的想法是接近恐惧症，接近创伤，重新体验它作为一个门户，然后调整对它的反应，并重新布线一些东西，这样令人不安的事情或可怕的事情对我们来说不再那么可怕。
I've heard you say before that in terms of therapeutic approaches, it's not just about the state you get into, but whether or not you brought yourself there voluntarily.
我以前听您说过，就治疗方法而言，重要的不仅仅是您进入的状态，而是您是否自愿进入该状态。
David Spiegel: That's exactly right.
大卫·斯皮格尔：完全正确。
Andrew Huberman: So, this element of deliberate self-exposure, deciding, "I'm going to confront the trauma.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：所以，这种刻意的自我暴露的元素，决定，“我要面对创伤。
I'm going to confront the pain.
我要面对痛苦。
I'm going to confront the insomnia.
我要面对失眠。
I'm going to confront the...
我将要面对...
And fill in the blank," and then, readjusting one's emotional response right up next to that troubling thing.
并填补空白，”然后，在那个令人不安的事情旁边重新调整自己的情绪反应。
That seems to be the hallmark of this treatment, and pretty much all treatments for getting over stuff.
这似乎是这种疗法以及几乎所有克服困难的疗法的标志。
How does one start to think about actually dealing with something like this, and avoiding the hazards of just kind of reactivating a lot of painful experiences?
人们如何开始考虑实际处理这样的事情，并避免重新激活许多痛苦经历的危险？
Because a lot of being a functional human being is also going to work each day, interacting with people, and not bringing one's trauma and dumping it out all on the table, or being able to just function, is so crucial.
因为作为一个正常人，每天都要工作，与人互动，不要把自己的创伤全部抛在桌面上，或者能够正常工作，这一点非常重要。
David Spiegel: Right.
大卫·斯皮格尔：对。
Andrew Huberman: So, how do you think about this as a clinician?
Andrew Huberman：那么，作为一名临床医生，您如何看待这个问题？
David Spiegel: You want to find a way to feel in control of the access, and to define what happened on your own terms.
David Spiegel：您想要找到一种方法来控制访问，并按照您自己的方式定义发生的事情。
It's not a matter of "Are you exposed to something that's upsetting," but "How do you handle it?
这不是“你是否遇到过令人不安的事情”的问题，而是“你如何处理它？
What do you make of it?" It's a matter of thinking about a problem in a way that leaves you feeling you understand it better, you're in more control.
你对此有何看法？”这是一个以一种让你感觉你更好地理解它、你更有控制力的方式思考问题的问题。
You can turn it off when you want.
您可以在需要时将其关闭。
You can turn it on when you want.
您可以在需要时将其打开。
And so we have to, in life, deal with stressful things.
因此，在生活中，我们必须处理有压力的事情。
Mere exposure to trauma or stress, it's a part of living anyway.
无论如何，仅仅遭受创伤或压力，这就是生活的一部分。
We can't avoid it, even if we'd like to.
即使我们愿意，我们也无法避免它。
And it's not pleasant, it's not great.
这并不令人愉快，也不是很好。
But it's sometimes things you need to learn about life.
但有时你需要了解生活的一些事情。
And if you can find an algorithm for facing it, putting it into perspective, dealing with it, you become a stronger person, not a weaker person.
如果你能找到一种算法来面对它、正确看待它、处理它，你就会成为一个更强大的人，而不是一个更弱的人。
Andrew Huberman: I can see examples in hypnosis, from your descriptions of hypnosis, where you want to unify the mind-body connection, feel what you're thinking, think what you're feeling, etc. But I could also point to elements within the hypnotic process in which you are actively trying to uncouple those.
安德鲁·休伯曼：从你对催眠的描述中，我可以看到催眠的例子，你想要统一身心联系，感受你在想什么，想你在感受什么，等等。但我也可以指出催眠过程中你积极尝试将这些元素分开的元素。
What do you think is the adaptive way to conceptualize the mind-body?
您认为概念化身心的适应性方式是什么？
David Spiegel: I think that it's a matter not of absolute control, but more control, that we need to think of our brain as a tool, and our body signals as tools as well, to help us understand what's going on in the world, what we need, what matters, what's important, and what isn't.
大卫·斯皮格尔：我认为这不是绝对控制的问题，而是更多控制的问题，我们需要将我们的大脑视为一种工具，将我们的身体信号视为工具，以帮助我们了解世界上正在发生什么，我们需要什么，什么是重要的，什么是重要的，什么是不重要的。
But also something that can be managed, not simply, you know, absorbed.
但也是可以管理的，而不是简单地吸收。
And so, hypnosis, I think, is a kind of limiting case where you can push it about as far as we can push it, in terms of regulating pain.
因此，我认为，催眠是一种极限情况，在调节疼痛方面，你可以尽我们所能地推动它。
Pain is a good example of that.
疼痛就是一个很好的例子。
Obviously, you need to pay attention.
显然，你需要注意。
If you just broke your ankle, you better pay attention to it and get help, or you're having crushing substernal chest pain, you better do something about it.
如果你刚刚扭伤了脚踝，你最好注意并寻求帮助，或者你有剧烈的胸骨后疼痛，你最好采取一些措施。
But our brain is sort of programmed to treat all pain signals as if they were novel pain signals.
但我们的大脑被编程为将所有疼痛信号视为新的疼痛信号。
If it's a sudden new problem that needs to be attended to.
如果这是一个突然出现的新问题需要注意。
I teach people to think of the pain and categorize it.
我教人们思考疼痛并将其分类。
Does the pain mean that if you put weight on this, you're going to re-injure your ankle, for example?
疼痛是否意味着如果你在上面施加重量，你的脚踝就会再次受伤？
Or does it simply mean that your body is healing and the pain is a sign that, gradually, things are getting back to normal?
或者这仅仅意味着您的身体正在康复，而疼痛只是一切逐渐恢复正常的迹象？
And so, you can modify the way you process pain, based on what your brain tells you the pain means.
因此，您可以根据大脑告诉您疼痛的含义来修改处理疼痛的方式。
And that's true for emotional pain as well.
对于情感上的痛苦也是如此。
And particularly, where I think a strategy that really helps is if you think of an interpersonal problem or a threat of something coming as an opportunity to do something to ameliorate the situation.
特别是，我认为真正有帮助的策略是，如果你将人际关系问题或某件事的威胁视为采取行动改善情况的机会。
So, it's not just, it's happening to you, but something that you can influence and do something about.
所以，这不仅发生在你身上，而且是你可以影响并采取行动的事情。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
David Spiegel: So, it's blending the receptive with the active response that I think can make a difference.
大卫·斯皮格尔：所以，我认为将接受性与主动反应相结合可以产生影响。
So, you try and process it in a way that gives you a deeper understanding of what's happening.
因此，你尝试以一种能让你更深入地了解正在发生的事情的方式来处理它。
You face it.
你面对它。
But you also say, "This is an opportunity for me to do something about it." And the minute you realistically enhance...
但你也说：“这是我为此做点什么的机会。”当你真正增强的那一刻......
And this doesn't mean imagine away a heart attack, it means figure out how to rehabilitate from a heart attack, or a broken leg, or something like that, in a way that you get as much control into the situation as you can.
这并不意味着想象远离心脏病发作，而是意味着弄清楚如何从心脏病发作、腿骨折或类似的情况中康复，以一种尽可能多地控制情况的方式。
Andrew Huberman: Can children be safely hypnotized or do self-hypnosis?
Andrew Huberman：儿童可以安全地被催眠或进行自我催眠吗？
David Spiegel: It's sometimes harder for them to do self-hypnosis.
大卫·斯皮格尔：有时自我催眠对他们来说比较困难。
They need more structure to do it.
他们需要更多的结构来做到这一点。
You've got to share your dorsolateral prefrontal cortex with them a little bit.
你必须与他们分享一点你的背外侧前额叶皮层。
But yes, absolutely.
但是，是的，绝对是的。
Children can be very hypnotizable.
孩子们很容易被催眠。
And I know pediatricians who use it wonderfully all the time.
我认识的儿科医生一直都在使用它，效果非常好。
They get them to focus on something else.
他们让他们专注于其他事情。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
David Spiegel: Good dentists can use it to help kids with fear and pain.
大卫·斯皮格尔：好的牙医可以用它来帮助孩子克服恐惧和疼痛。
So yes, it can be very effective for children.
所以是的，它对儿童非常有效。
We did a randomized trial.
我们做了一项随机试验。
I have a publication in pediatrics, and the paper was: "Children having to undergo a voiding cystourethrogram." So, I would meet with them and the mother the week before.
我有一篇儿科出版物，论文是：“儿童必须接受排尿性膀胱尿道造影。”所以，我会在前一周与他们和母亲见面。
We find out from the kids where they like to be, and I'd say, "You're going to play a trick on your doctors.
我们从孩子们那里了解到他们喜欢去哪里，我会说，“你会欺骗你的医生。
Your body's there, you're somewhere else.
你的身体在那里，你在别的地方。
Go visit your friend, go to Disneyland, do something else." And the mother would work on this with me at the head of the table.
去拜访你的朋友，去迪士尼乐园，做点别的事情。”母亲会和我一起做这件事。
And we found that these children were much easier to image.
我们发现这些孩子更容易想象。
Seventeen minutes shorter procedures, and that's a long 17 minutes for a little kid.
手术时间缩短了 17 分钟，但对于一个小孩子来说，这 17 分钟却是漫长的。
So, it can be very effective with children.
因此，它对儿童非常有效。
They're less anxious, they have less pain, and get through these difficult procedures very well.
他们不那么焦虑，更少痛苦，并且能够很好地完成这些困难的手术。
Andrew Huberman: Has hypnosis ever been done for couples, like couples therapy?
安德鲁·休伯曼：有没有像夫妻疗法那样对夫妻进行过催眠？
Are you aware of any coordinated hypnosis?
你知道有协调催眠吗？
David Spiegel: I mean, I've done plenty of it in groups, not with couples.
大卫·斯皮格尔：我的意思是，我在团体中做过很多这样的事情，而不是与情侣一起做。
Andrew Huberman: You can hypnotize large groups at once?
安德鲁·休伯曼：你可以同时催眠一大群人吗？
David Spiegel: Oh, yeah.
大卫·斯皮格尔：哦，是的。
The metastatic breast cancer, and it was a group of 10 women, who would meet once a week, and we would all go into hypnosis together.
转移性乳腺癌，这是一个由 10 名女性组成的小组，每周见面一次，我们都会一起进入催眠状态。
Andrew Huberman: I didn't realize that you were hypnotizing them collectively.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我没有意识到你正在集体催眠他们。
David Spiegel: Yeah.
大卫·斯皮格尔：是的。
Yes, yes.
是的，是的。
Right.
正确的。
Andrew Huberman: Fascinating.
安德鲁·休伯曼：令人着迷。
David Spiegel: You know, if anything, I think it brings out the best in people's abilities, because it's a shared social experience, and they would talk about it afterwards.
大卫·斯皮格尔：你知道，如果有什么不同的话，我认为它可以发挥出人们最好的能力，因为这是一种共享的社交体验，他们会在事后谈论它。
And so, yes, that's absolutely doable.
所以，是的，这是绝对可行的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Breathing itself, you've described, is a bridge between conscious and unconscious states.
安德鲁·休伯曼：正如你所描述的，呼吸本身是有意识和无意识状态之间的桥梁。
David Spiegel: Right.
大卫·斯皮格尔：对。
Andrew Huberman: What is the role of respiration in shifting the brain's state during a hypnotic protocol?
Andrew Huberman：在催眠过程中，呼吸在改变大脑状态方面起什么作用？
David Spiegel: There are breathing patterns that may increase sympathetic arousal, or may decrease it...
大卫·斯皮格尔：有些呼吸模式可能会增加或减少交感神经的兴奋......
Cyclic sighing, seems to actually...
循环叹息，似乎真的……
Where you have more time spent exhaling than inhaling.
您呼气的时间多于吸气的时间。
And there's reason to believe that it induces parasympathetic activity, because you're increasing pressure in the chest, and therefore, allowing the heart to slow down because blood is being returned to the atrium more easily.
有理由相信它会引起副交感神经活动，因为你会增加胸部压力，从而使心脏减慢，因为血液更容易返回心房。
I do use it.
我确实用它。
I ask people to take a deep breath as part of the induction, and then slowly exhale.
我要求人们深吸一口气，作为诱导的一部分，然后慢慢呼气。
And partly, as a result of our research together, I'm emphasizing the slow exhale more, to enhance the idea in the induction that this is a period of relaxation, because I think they are inducing that, and perhaps perceiving it as well.
部分地，作为我们共同研究的结果，我更多地强调缓慢呼气，以增强诱导中的想法，即这是一个放松的时期，因为我认为他们正在诱导这一点，也许也感知到它。
So, you're absolutely right that breathing is very interesting, because it's right at the edge of conscious and unconscious control, that it will go on automatically.
所以，你说呼吸非常有趣，这是绝对正确的，因为它处于有意识和无意识控制的边缘，它会自动进行。
But we can control it.
但我们可以控制它。
And so, it's a kind of way for us to demonstrate to ourselves greater ways of modulating our internal state.
因此，这是我们向自己展示调节内部状态的更好方法的一种方式。
So, you can either do it thinking about it the way we do with pain control and hypnosis, or you can do it, to some extent, by taking charge of your breathing and doing things that will produce a change that you want to see happen in your body.
所以，你可以像我们控制疼痛和催眠那样思考，或者在某种程度上，你可以通过控制你的呼吸并做一些你希望看到你的身体发生变化的事情来做到这一点。
Andrew Huberman: Great.
安德鲁·休伯曼： 太好了。
I'm really excited to see where all of this goes.
我真的很高兴看到这一切的发展方向。
David Spiegel: Yes.
大卫·斯皮格尔：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Breathing, vision, bodily states.
Andrew Huberman：呼吸、视觉、身体状态。
Am I missing any other ingredients?
我还缺少其他成分吗？
David Spiegel: Typically, you're in a physically relaxed state.
大卫·斯皮格尔：通常情况下，你处于身体放松的状态。
But frankly, there are people at the peak of performance, including physical, athletic performance, or musical performance, when they're in hypnotic states, too.
但坦率地说，有些人在处于催眠状态时，也处于表现的巅峰，包括身体、运动表现或音乐表现。
You know, I've talked to classical pianists who say, "If I start thinking about what my fingers are doing now, I screw up.
你知道，我和古典钢琴家交谈过，他们说：“如果我开始思考我的手指现在在做什么，我就会搞砸。
I'm floating above the piano thinking about the tone that I want to feel exuding from the instrument." So, that's a hypnotic-like state, too.
我漂浮在钢琴上方，思考着我想要从乐器中散发出来的音色。”所以，这也是一种类似催眠的状态。
And many athletes who are in peak performance are just flowing with it.
许多处于巅峰状态的运动员只是顺其自然。
They're not thinking step by step, "What am I doing?" And that's when you're doing your best.
他们不会一步步思考“我在做什么？”那就是你尽力而为的时候。
Or, you know, when we're working or giving a talk and doing it well, we're in a hypnotic-like state.
或者，你知道，当我们工作或演讲并且做得很好时，我们就处于催眠般的状态。
So, it usually requires, but doesn't necessarily require, physical comfort or quietness.
因此，它通常需要但不一定需要身体舒适或安静。
It can sometimes be an intense activity.
有时它可能是一项激烈的活动。
Andrew Huberman: Where can people learn more about how they can get hypnotized?
安德鲁·休伯曼：人们可以在哪里了解更多关于如何被催眠的信息？
We mentioned Reveri.
我们提到了雷维里。
We will put a link to it.
我们将放置一个链接。
It's R-E-V-E-R-I dot com, it's the way to access that.
这是 R-E-V-E-R-I . com，这是访问它的方式。
David Spiegel: Or it's the Reveri app from the App Store, is the other way.
David Spiegel：或者是 App Store 中的 Reveri 应用程序，是另一种方式。
Download the Reveri app from the App Store.
从 App Store 下载 Reveri 应用程序。
Andrew Huberman: Great.
安德鲁·休伯曼： 太好了。
Is there a centralized resource that people can go to to find really well-trained hypnotists?
是否有一个集中的资源可供人们寻找真正训练有素的催眠师？
David Spiegel: There are two good professional organizations that will help you with that.
大卫·斯皮格尔：有两个很好的专业组织可以帮助你。
One is the Society for Clinical and Experimental Hypnosis, and I think that's sceh.us, and the American Society for Clinical Hypnosis, and they both provide referral services for professionals.
其中之一是临床和实验催眠协会，我认为是 sceh.us 和美国临床催眠协会，他们都为专业人士提供转介服务。
In general, look for someone who is licensed and trained in their primary professional discipline, psychiatry, psychology, medicine, dentistry, and who has training and interest in using hypnosis, is a way to do it.
一般来说，寻找在其主要专业学科、精神病学、心理学、医学、牙科方面获得许可和培训的人，并且对使用催眠术有培训和兴趣的人是一种方法。
Andrew Huberman: Great.
安德鲁·休伯曼： 太好了。
First of all, thank you so much for being here today, for sharing your knowledge.
首先，非常感谢您今天来到这里，分享您的知识。
David Spiegel: You're welcome.
大卫·斯皮格尔：不客气。
Andrew Huberman: I hope we can do it again and again.
Andrew Huberman：我希望我们能够一次又一次地这样做。
David Spiegel: I hope so.
大卫·斯皮格尔：我希望如此。
Andrew Huberman: It's an incredible thing that in this world, where we are discovering so much about how the body works, you know, the mind is still rather mysterious.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：这是一件令人难以置信的事情，在这个世界上，我们对身体如何运作有了如此多的发现，你知道，心灵仍然相当神秘。
David Spiegel: Mm-hmm.
大卫·斯皮格尔：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And people are struggling with a lot of things, but also, I think people are really excited about applying tools like hypnosis to perform better, feel better mentally and physically.
安德鲁·休伯曼：人们正在与很多事情作斗争，而且，我认为人们对应用催眠等工具来表现更好、在精神和身体上感觉更好感到非常兴奋。
And so, you've pointed us to a tremendous amount of resources, and how these tools work, and where they've already been demonstrated to work.
因此，您向我们指出了大量的资源、这些工具的工作原理以及它们已被证明可以发挥作用的地方。
So just, thank you.
就这样吧，谢谢。
I know this is your professional commitment in life, and we all benefit.
我知道这是您一生的职业承诺，我们都会受益。
David Spiegel: Thank you, yeah.
大卫·斯皮格尔：谢谢，是的。
Andrew Huberman: Thank you very much, David.
安德鲁·休伯曼：非常感谢你，大卫。
David Spiegel: You're welcome.
大卫·斯皮格尔：不客气。