Essentials: Genes & the Inheritance of Memories Across Generations | Dr. Oded Rechavi
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials, where we revisit past episodes for the most potent and actionable science-based tools for mental health, physical health, and performance.
欢迎来到 Huberman Lab Essentials，在这里我们回顾过去的剧集，寻找针对心理健康、身体健康和表现的最有效、最可操作的基于科学的工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Oded Rechavi.
现在我与 Oded Rechavi 博士进行讨论。
Oded, thank you so much for being here.
奥德，非常感谢你来到这里。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Totally, my pleasure.
完全是我的荣幸。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Today, what I mainly want to talk about is the incredible questions that you probe in your lab, which are incredibly significant for each and all of our lives.
今天，我主要想谈论的是你们在实验室中探索的令人难以置信的问题，这些问题对我们每个人的生活都非常重要。
I think most people have a general understanding of what genes are, what RNA is, and so on, but maybe you could explain to people in very basic terms.
我想大多数人对什么是基因、什么是RNA等等都有一个大致的了解，但也许你可以用非常基本的术语向人们解释一下。
And I'll just preface all this by saying that I think most people understand that if they have two blue-eyed parents, that there's a higher probability that their offspring will have blue eyes than brown eyes.
我想在这一切的序言中说，我认为大多数人都明白，如果他们有两个蓝眼睛的父母，那么他们的后代拥有蓝眼睛的可能性比棕色眼睛的可能性更高。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But most people generally understand and accept that if they spend part of their life, let's say, studying architecture, that if they have children, that there's no real genetic reason, we assume, that their children would somehow be better at architecture because they contain the knowledge through the DNA of their parents.
但大多数人普遍理解并接受，如果他们花一部分时间学习建筑，如果他们有孩子，那么没有真正的遗传原因，我们认为他们的孩子会在某种程度上更擅长建筑，因为他们通过父母的 DNA 包含了知识。
They might be exposed to it in the home, so-called nature nurture-
他们可能会在家里接触到它，所谓的自然养育-
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
so nurture in that case, but that they wouldn't inherit knowledge.
所以在这种情况下要培养，但他们不会继承知识。
Today, I'm hoping you can explain to us why eye color, but not knowledge, is thought to be inherited, and the huge landscape of interesting questions that this opens up, including some evidence that, contrary to what we might think, certain types of knowledge at the level of cells and systems can be inherited.
今天，我希望你能向我们解释为什么眼睛的颜色而不是知识被认为是可以遗传的，以及由此引发的一系列有趣的问题，包括一些证据表明，与我们可能认为的相反，细胞和系统层面的某些类型的知识是可以遗传的。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
So DNA is the material, the genetic instructions that is contained in every one of our cells.
因此，DNA 是一种物质，是我们每个细胞中所包含的遗传指令。
We have the set of genes.
我们有一套基因。
The entire set is called the genome, and this is present in every cell of our body, the same set of instructions.
整套指令称为基因组，它存在于我们身体的每个细胞中，是同一组指令。
Genes are made of DNA and chromosomes.
基因由DNA和染色体组成。
They are contained in chromosomes.
它们包含在染色体中。
Chromosomes is the DNA and the proteins that condense the DNA because we have a huge amount of DNA in every cell that you need to condense it to.
染色体是 DNA 和浓缩 DNA 的蛋白质，因为我们的每个细胞中都有大量的 DNA，需要将其浓缩到其中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sort of like thread on a spool.
有点像线轴上的线。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
Huge amounts that you have to condense.
您必须压缩大量的量。
And we have the same genome, the same DNA in every cell in our body.
我们体内的每个细胞都有相同的基因组、相同的 DNA。
It's good to have an analogy to understand how it works.
最好通过类比来理解它是如何工作的。
This is like the IKEA book that you have in every cell in your body, the instructions to make everything that you need in your house, the chairs, the kitchen, the pictures.
这就像你身体每个细胞里都有的宜家书，里面有制作你家里所需的一切的说明，包括椅子、厨房和图片。
But in every room, you want something else.
但在每个房间里，你都想要别的东西。
So in the kitchen, you want things that fit the kitchen, and in the toilet, you want things that fit the toilet.
因此，在厨房里，您想要适合厨房的东西，在厕所里，您想要适合厕所的东西。
So you only remove one particular page of instructions, which is the instruction of how to build a chair.
因此，您只需删除特定的一页说明，即如何制作一把椅子的说明。
And this you place in the living room, okay?
你把这个放在客厅，好吗？
And the toilet, you put it in the toilet.
还有厕所，你把它放在厕所里。
So the genome is the instruction to make everything.
所以基因组是制造一切的指令。
This is the IKEA book.
这是宜家的书。
And in every cell, we take just the instructions for make one particular furniture, and this is the RNA.
在每个牢房中，我们只接受制作一件特定家具的说明，这就是 RNA。
And then at the end, you'll build a chair.
最后，你将建造一把椅子。
The chair is the protein.
椅子就是蛋白质。
This is true for one particular type of RNA, which is messenger RNA, and in fact, this is just a small percent of the RNA in the cell.
对于一种特定类型的 RNA（即信使 RNA）来说确实如此，事实上，这只是细胞中 RNA 的一小部分。
So we have a very big genome and less than 2% of it encodes for this messenger RNA.
所以我们有一个非常大的基因组，其中只有不到 2% 编码这种信使 RNA。
However, a lot of the genome is transcribed to make RNA that does other things.
然而，许多基因组被转录以产生做其他事情的RNA。
Some of these RNAs we understand, and many of them we don't.
其中一些 RNA 我们可以理解，但也有很多我们不能理解。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think it's a beautiful description, and IKEA is not a sponsor of the podcast, so it's totally fair game to use the IKEA catalog as the analogy for DNA.
我认为这是一个美丽的描述，而且宜家不是播客的赞助商，因此使用宜家目录作为 DNA 的类比是完全公平的。
The specific instructions for specific pieces of furniture is the RNA, and the furniture pieces being the proteins that are essentially made from RNA using messenger RNA.
特定家具的具体指令是RNA，而家具部件本质上是由RNA利用信使RNA制成的蛋白质。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Despite the fact that the same genes are contained in all the cells of the body, is it fair to say that there is basically one very important exception, which is somatic cells versus germ cells?
尽管身体的所有细胞中都含有相同的基因，但可以公平地说，基本上有一个非常重要的例外，即体细胞与生殖细胞吗？
And would you mind sharing with us what that distinction is?
您介意与我们分享一下其中的区别吗？
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
So yes, every cell type is different.
所以是的，每种细胞类型都是不同的。
We have cells in the legs, we have cells in the brain.
我们的腿有细胞，我们的大脑有细胞。
In the brain, we have cells that produce dopamine, cells that produce serotonin, and so on.
在大脑中，我们有产生多巴胺的细胞，产生血清素的细胞等等。
But we can make one very important distinction between the somatic cells and the germ cells.
但我们可以在体细胞和生殖细胞之间做出一个非常重要的区别。
The germ cells are supposed to be the only cells that contribute to the next generation, that out of which the next generation will be made.
生殖细胞被认为是唯一对下一代做出贡献的细胞，下一代将由这些细胞产生。
So each of us is made just from a combination of a sperm and an egg.
所以我们每个人都是由精子和卵子结合而成的。
These are two types of germ cells.
这是两种类型的生殖细胞。
And then they fuse, and you get one fertilized egg.
然后它们融合，你就得到了一个受精卵。
And out of this one cell, all the rest of the body will develop.
身体的所有其他部分都会从这一个细胞中发育出来。
And what happens in the soma, which are all the cells that are not the germ cells, should stay in the soma, should not be able to contribute to the next generation.
体细胞中发生的事情，即所有非生殖细胞的细胞，应该留在体细胞中，不应该能够为下一代做出贡献。
This is very important, and it's thought to be one of the main barriers for the inheritance of acquired traits, the inheritance of memory, and so on because, for example, like the example that you gave with learning architecture.
这非常重要，它被认为是后天性状遗传、记忆遗传等的主要障碍之一，因为，例如，就像您在学习建筑方面给出的例子一样。
If I learn about architecture, the information is encoded in my brain, and since my brain cells can't transfer information to the sperm and the egg because the information is supposed to reside in synaptic connections between different neurons, in particular circuits that developed.
如果我学习建筑学，信息就会被编码在我的大脑中，并且由于我的脑细胞无法将信息传递给精子和卵子，因为信息应该驻留在不同神经元之间的突触连接中，特别是发育的电路中。
So what happens in the brain shouldn't be able to transfer to the next generation.
所以大脑中发生的事情不应该能够转移到下一代。
Even a simpler example, if you go to the gym and you build up muscles, you know that your kids will have to work out on their own.
甚至更简单的例子，如果你去健身房锻炼肌肉，你就知道你的孩子必须自己锻炼。
This shortcut won't happen.
这条捷径不会发生。
This is something that we know intuitively, even if we don't have any background in biology.
即使我们没有任何生物学背景，我们也可以凭直觉知道这一点。
This is connected to the fact that, as we said at the beginning, every cell in the body has its own genome, and the next generation will only form from the combination of the genomes in the sperm and the egg.
这与我们一开始所说的那样，体内的每个细胞都有自己的基因组，下一代只能由精子和卵子中的基因组结合形成。
Even if you somehow acquire the mutation or a change in your DNA in one of particular brain cells, it wouldn't matter because this mutation, there's no way to transfer it to the DNA of the germ cells that will contribute to the next generation.
即使你以某种方式在某个特定脑细胞中获得了 DNA 突变或变化，也没关系，因为这种突变无法将其转移到生殖细胞的 DNA 中，从而为下一代做出贡献。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Eight Sleep.
我想稍微休息一下，并向我们的赞助商“八睡”表示感谢。
Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep-tracking capacity.
八睡眠公司生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。
One of the best ways to ensure you get a great night's sleep is to make sure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct.
确保您睡个好觉的最佳方法之一是确保睡眠环境的温度正确。
And that's because in order to fall asleep and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees.
这是因为为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的体温实际上必须下降约一到三度。
And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees.
为了醒来时感觉神清气爽、精力充沛，您的体温实际上必须升高约一到三度。
Eight Sleep automatically regulates the temperature of your bed throughout the night according to your unique needs.
八睡眠会根据您的独特需求自动调节整个晚上的床温。
I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for nearly five years now, and it has completely transformed and improved the quality of my sleep.
我已经睡在八睡眠床垫罩上近五年了，它彻底改变并改善了我的睡眠质量。
The latest Eight Sleep model is the Pod 5.
最新的八睡眠型号是 Pod 5。
This is what I'm now sleeping on, and I absolutely love it.
这就是我现在睡觉的地方，我非常喜欢它。
It has so many incredible features.
它有很多令人难以置信的功能。
For instance, the Pod 5 has a feature called Autopilot, which is an AI engine that learns your sleep patterns and then adjusts the temperature of your sleeping environment across different sleep stages.
例如，Pod 5有一个名为Autopilot的功能，这是一个人工智能引擎，可以学习你的睡眠模式，然后在不同的睡眠阶段调整你的睡眠环境温度。
It'll even elevate your head if you're snoring, and it makes other shifts to optimize your sleep.
如果您打鼾，它甚至会抬高您的头部，并进行其他转换以优化您的睡眠。
If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, go to eightsleep.com/huberman to get up to $350 off the new Pod 5.
如果您想尝试八睡眠，请访问八睡眠.com/huberman，新款 Pod 5 最高可享受 350 美元优惠。
Eight Sleep ships to many countries worldwide, including Mexico and the UAE.
八号睡眠船运往世界各地的许多国家，包括墨西哥和阿联酋。
Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $350.
同样，访问八睡眠.com/huberman 最多可节省 350 美元。
There is this idea, and I'll say it so that you don't have to, that dates back to Lamarck and Lamarckian evolution, very controversial, right?
有一个想法，我会这么说，这样你就不必说了，它可以追溯到拉马克和拉马克进化论，非常有争议，对吗？
And maybe not even controversial.
也许甚至没有争议。
I think it's very offensive even to certain people, this idea of inheritance of acquired traits, the idea that one could change themselves through some activity.
我认为这种继承后天特质的想法，以及人们可以通过某些活动改变自己的想法，甚至对某些人来说也是非常冒犯的。
Use the example of going to the gym.
以去健身房为例。
We could also use the example of somebody who becomes an endurance runner, then decides to have children with another endurance runner and has in mind the idea that because they did all this running, and not just because they were biased towards running in the first place-
我们还可以用这样的例子：某人成为一名耐力跑运动员，然后决定与另一位耐力跑运动员生孩子，并想到因为他们做了所有这些跑步，而不仅仅是因为他们一开始就偏向于跑步——
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but because of the distance they actually ran, that their offspring somehow would be fabulous runners.
但由于他们实际跑的距离，他们的后代在某种程度上会成为出色的跑步者。
This Lamarckian concept is, we believe, wrong.
我们认为，拉马克的这一概念是错误的。
So how do we talk about inheritance of acquired traits?
那么我们如何谈论后天性状的遗传呢？
What's the proper language for us to frame this discussion?
我们应该用什么语言来进行这次讨论？
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Lamarck, this is what he believed, and he thought this is how evolution progresses.
拉马克，这就是他所相信的，他认为这就是进化的进展方式。
And later, Darwin showed that it's really natural selection.
后来，达尔文证明这确实是自然选择。
The selecting of the organisms that already contain the particular qualities are selected based on whether they survive or not in particular environments, and therefore, their evolution progresses.
对已经具有特定品质的生物体的选择是根据它们是否在特定环境中生存来选择的，因此它们的进化不断进行。
They become more common and take over.
它们变得更加普遍并占据主导地位。
This is very different.
这是非常不同的。
Two different explanations.
两种不同的解释。
The most common way this is contrasted is the neck of the giraffes.
最常见的对比方式是长颈鹿的脖子。
This is the classic example.
这是一个经典的例子。
According to Lamarck, the giraffes had to stretch their necks towards the trees to eat when the trees were high, and because of that, they transmitted these traits, long necks, to their children, who also had long necks.
根据拉马克的说法，当树高的时候，长颈鹿必须把脖子伸向树才能吃东西，正因为如此，它们把长脖子的这些特征遗传给了它们的孩子，而它们的孩子也有长脖子。
And according to Darwin, just a giraffe that happened to be born with a long neck survived because it ate, so its heritable material, didn't know about genetics, but take over, and the rest of the giraffes that have different heritable materials just die.
根据达尔文的说法，只有一只出生时脖子很长的长颈鹿才幸存下来，因为它吃东西，所以它的遗传物质不知道遗传学，而是接管，而其余具有不同遗传物质的长颈鹿就死了。
So this is natural selection versus inheritance of acquired traits.
所以这是自然选择与后天性状遗传的对比。
And then we go back to these studies about the inheritance of acquired traits.
然后我们回到这些关于后天性状遗传的研究。
There were also theoretical problems of why this can't happen, barriers that have to be breached for this to happen, and you can narrow it down to two main barriers.
还有一些理论上的问题，即为什么这种情况不会发生，必须突破的障碍才能发生，您可以将其范围缩小到两个主要障碍。
First barrier, we mentioned it.
第一个障碍，我们提到过。
This is the separation of the soma from the germline.
这是体细胞与种系的分离。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right, the somatic cells, they can change in response to experience.
是的，体细胞，它们可以根据经验而改变。
The sperm and the egg, the so-called germ cells, cannot.
精子和卵子，即所谓的生殖细胞，不能。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
They are-
他们是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's the idea
这就是这个想法
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
...
...
or they are isolated from what happens in the soma.
或者它们与躯体中发生的事情隔离。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Okay?
好吧？
The man who first thought about this barrier is called Weismann, August Weismann.
第一个想到这个屏障的人叫韦斯曼，奥古斯特·韦斯曼。
This was in the 19th century.
那是在19世纪。
So it is called today the Weismann barrier.
所以今天它被称为魏斯曼势垒。
Separation of the soma from the germline, only the germline transmitting information to the next generation.
体细胞与种系分离，只有种系将信息传递给下一代。
And this is also called the second law of biology.
这也被称为生物学第二定律。
So this is very, very fundamental.
所以这是非常非常基本的。
So natural selection is the first one.
所以自然选择是第一个。
This is the second one because it's so important to how our bodies work.
这是第二个，因为它对我们的身体运作非常重要。
The other main barrier, it's called epigenetic reprogramming, which is that we acquired our cells.
另一个主要障碍称为表观遗传重编程，即我们获得了我们的细胞。
The genetic material in our cells acquires all kinds of chemical changes, but these modifications are largely erased in the transition between generations.
我们细胞中的遗传物质会发生各种化学变化，但这些变化在代际过渡中大部分被消除。
So in the germline, in the sperm and the egg, and also in the early embryo, most of the modifications are removed, so we can start a blank slate based on the genetic instructions.
因此，在种系中，在精子和卵子中，以及在早期胚胎中，大部分修饰都被删除了，因此我们可以根据遗传指令开始一张白纸。
And this is crucial.
这一点至关重要。
Otherwise, according to the theory, it's not clear that it's actually true, because in some organisms, it doesn't really happen.
否则，根据该理论，尚不清楚它是否真的如此，因为在某些生物体中，它并没有真正发生。
We will not develop according to the species' typical genetic instructions.
我们不会按照物种典型的遗传指令发展。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
So to preserve this, we erase all these modifications and start anew.
因此，为了保留这一点，我们删除所有这些修改并重新开始。
And this is in mammals and in humans, this is largely true.
对于哺乳动物和人类来说，这在很大程度上是正确的。
Most of the modifications in the sperm and in the egg are removed, so about 90% of them.
精子和卵子中的大部分修饰都被去除，因此大约有 90% 的修饰被去除。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the idea, if I understand correctly, is that there's some advantage to wiping the slate clean and returning to the original plan.
所以，如果我理解正确的话，这个想法是，把石板擦干净并回到原来的计划有一些好处。
In the context of the IKEA furniture analogy, the instruction book-
在宜家家具类比的背景下，说明书-
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is the one that's issued to everybody, okay, or every cell, right?
是发给每个人的，好吧，还是发给每个细胞的，对吗？
Only certain instructions are used for certain cells, say a skin cell or a neuron or a liver cell or any other cell for that matter.
仅对某些细胞使用某些指令，例如皮肤细胞、神经元、肝细胞或任何其他细胞。
Through the course of the lifespan of the organism, those specific instructions are adjusted somewhat.
在有机体的生命周期中，这些具体指令会有所调整。
Okay, so maybe the idea is to take the instruction book, go through, and erase all the pen and pencil marks, erase all those additional little modifications that the owner used or introduced to it, and return to the original instruction book.
好吧，所以也许这个想法是拿起说明书，浏览并擦除所有钢笔和铅笔标记，擦除所有者使用或引入的所有额外的小修改，然后返回到原始说明书。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right, because if you want to bring back the instruction book, you want it to have all the potential to make all the furniture.
是的，因为如果你想带回说明书，你希望它具有制造所有家具的所有潜力。
You don't want it to be restricted to the ones that you made in a particular room.
您不希望它仅限于您在特定房间中制作的内容。
So part of the resistance to the idea is based on theoretical grounds because of these barriers.
因此，由于这些障碍，对该想法的部分抵制是基于理论依据的。
And because of the controversies.
并且因为争议。
On the other hand, people really want to believe it because it sort of gives your life meaning.
另一方面，人们真的想相信它，因为它给你的生活带来了意义。
If you can change your biology of your kids through changing your biology.
如果你可以通过改变你的生物学来改变你孩子的生物学。
So psychologically, I can understand why many people want this to happen.
所以从心理上来说，我可以理解为什么很多人希望这种情况发生。
Even Schrödinger, the famous physicist, wrote a very important book in '44, and he talked about the heritable material and also talks about evolution, and he said, "Well, inheritance of acquired trait is untenable.
甚至著名物理学家薛定谔在44年写了一本非常重要的书，他谈到了可遗传的物质，也谈到了进化，他说：“嗯，后天性状的遗传是站不住脚的。
It doesn't happen." And he writes, this is very sad or unfortunate because unlike Darwinism or natural selection, which is gloomy, it doesn't matter what you do, the next generation will be born based on the instruction in the sperm and the egg.
这不会发生。”他写道，这是非常悲伤或不幸的，因为与令人沮丧的达尔文主义或自然选择不同，无论你做什么，下一代都会根据精子和卵子的指令诞生。
You can't influence it.
你无法影响它。
Of course, you can give your kids money and education, but you can't biologically influence it.
当然，你可以给你的孩子金钱和教育，但你不能从生物学上影响它。
However, there's one additional thing to mention, which is there are also other mechanisms that might transmit information, including transmission between generations of RNA.
然而，还有一件事要提，那就是还有其他可能传递信息的机制，包括各代 RNA 之间的传递。
And there are different types of RNA, not just messenger RNA, which encodes the information for making proteins, but also other RNAs that regulate gene expression.
RNA 有不同类型，不仅是编码制造蛋白质信息的信使 RNA，还包括调节基因表达的其他 RNA。
And I think that in recent years, also in the mammalian field, RNA as the molecule that has the potential to transmit information between generation took center stage.
我认为近年来，同样在哺乳动物领域，RNA 作为具有在代际间传递信息潜力的分子占据了中心舞台。
So I think this is the cutting edge.
所以我认为这是最前沿的。
A lot more to understand and know, but RNA has a lot of potential for doing that, as we'll explain soon, but we have to go to worms first.
还有很多东西需要理解和了解，但 RNA 在这方面有很大的潜力，我们很快就会解释，但我们必须首先了解蠕虫。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Many, if not most of our listeners, are focused on humans and human biology and health, et cetera.
许多（如果不是大多数）听众都关注人类、人类生物学和健康等等。
But I cannot emphasize enough the importance of model organisms and the incredible degree to which they've informed us about human health, especially when it comes to very basic functions in cells.
但我无法充分强调模式生物的重要性，以及它们对我们了解人类健康的令人难以置信的程度，特别是当涉及到细胞中非常基本的功能时。
Before we start to go into the description about worms per se, could you just explain to a general audience what a model organism is and why you've selected or elected to work on a particular type of worm to study these fascinating topics that there's zero question also take place in humans at some level.
在我们开始对蠕虫本身进行描述之前，您能否向一般观众解释一下什么是模式生物，以及为什么您选择或选择研究特定类型的蠕虫来研究这些令人着迷的主题，即在某种程度上，人类身上也存在零问题。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Model organisms mean that it's an organism.
模式生物意味着它是一个有机体。
There's a huge community of researchers that combine forces to create all the resources and the tools and understanding that accumulates.
有一个庞大的研究人员社区，他们联合起来创造所有的资源、工具和积累的理解。
We learned about every aspect of biology through them, including many important diseases.
我们通过他们了解了生物学的各个方面，包括许多重要的疾病。
And the reason that we can learn a lot also about humans by studying these animals is that we all evolved from the same ancestor.
我们之所以可以通过研究这些动物来了解更多关于人类的信息，是因为我们都是从同一个祖先进化而来的。
We share a lot of our functions with them and also a lot of our genes.
我们与它们共享许多功能，也共享许多基因。
They sometimes have things that are much more apparent in them that we can study.
有时他们身上有一些更明显的东西可供我们研究。
Another important reason to study them, of course, is you can actually experiment on them.
当然，研究它们的另一个重要原因是您可以实际对它们进行实验。
We can't do this to humans, the things that we do to these animals, and we can change their genes, do all kinds of things to them.
我们不能对人类这样做，对这些动物做的事情，我们可以改变他们的基因，对他们做各种各样的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The community of people that study C.
研究 C 的人们的社区。
elegans has literally numbered and named each neuron so that two laboratories on opposite sides of the world can publish papers on the same neuron, knowing that it's the same neuron-
线虫对每个神经元进行了字面上的编号和命名，这样世界两端的两个实验室就可以发表关于同一个神经元的论文，因为他们知道这是同一个神经元——
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Absolutely
绝对
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the two different laboratories, something that is extremely hard to do in any mammalian model-
在两个不同的实验室中，这在任何哺乳动物模型中都很难做到——
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a mouse, or certainly in humans, and has posed huge challenges that give great advantages to studies of things like C.
小鼠，或者当然是人类，也带来了巨大的挑战，这为像 C. 等生物的研究提供了巨大的优势。
elegans.
线虫。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
A C.
A C.
elegans nematode always has 959 cells, out of which 302 are neurons.
线虫共有 959 个细胞，其中 302 个是神经元。
We have a connectome since the '80s, like a subway map that tells us which neuron talks with which other neurons, and it is the same.
自 80 年代以来，我们就有了连接组，就像地铁地图一样，它告诉我们哪个神经元与哪些其他神经元对话，而且它是一样的。
Not only that, the worms are transparent, so we can actually see the neurons fire using particular tools, and we can activate genes and silent genes using optogenetics.
不仅如此，蠕虫是透明的，因此我们实际上可以使用特定工具看到神经元放电，并且我们可以使用光遗传学激活基因和沉默基因。
On top of that, we have great understanding of the genetics of the worm, of the genome.
最重要的是，我们对线虫的遗传学和基因组有深入的了解。
C.
C.
elegans is the first animal to have its genome sequenced before humans.
线虫是第一个在人类之前完成基因组测序的动物。
And we know that each mother produces about 250 babies, which are almost genetically identical, and we know where we grow them.
我们知道，每位母亲会生育大约 250 个婴儿，这些婴儿的基因几乎完全相同，而且我们也知道在哪里培育它们。
The environment is very controlled, so we grow them in the plate with just bacteria.
环境受到严格控制，因此我们将它们培养在仅含有细菌的盘子中。
So we can easily separate between nature and nurture.
所以我们可以很容易地区分先天和后天。
The generation time in C.
C中的生成时间
elegans is three days.
线虫是三天。
Three days.
三天。
So you can do hundreds of worm generations in one PhD.
因此，您可以在一个博士学位内完成数百个蠕虫世代。
This is very important.
这非常重要。
Not only that, every worm will produce hundreds of progeny that are genetically identical, so you will have great statistics for your experiments.
不仅如此，每条蠕虫都会产生数百个基因相同的后代，因此您将为您的实验提供大量统计数据。
In the worm, we now have very obvious and clear-cut proof that there is inheritance of acquired traits.
在蠕虫中，我们现在有非常明显和明确的证据证明后天性状的遗传。
So much so that I don't think that anyone pretty much in the epigenetic field argues against it.
如此之多以至于我认为表观遗传学领域几乎没有人反对它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。
AG1 just launched their newest formulation called AG1 Pro, and right now you can get an extra 20% off your first subscription.
AG1 刚刚推出了名为 AG1 Pro 的最新配方，现在您首次订阅可享受 20% 的额外折扣。
AG1 takes the clinically backed AG1 formula, which is a blend of vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and adaptogens, and adds three important new ingredients, creatine monohydrate, calcium HMB, and zinc carnosine.
AG1 采用经过临床支持的 AG1 配方，该配方混合了维生素、矿物质、益生菌和适应原，并添加了三种重要的新成分：一水肌酸、HMB 钙和肌肽锌。
It has five grams of creatine monohydrate to support muscle strength and performance, along with brain health, calcium HMB to support muscle recovery and reduce muscle breakdown, and zinc carnosine to support and improve the lining of your gut.
它含有 5 克一水肌酸，可支持肌肉力量和性能，促进大脑健康；HMB 钙可支持肌肉恢复并减少肌肉分解；肌肽锌可支持和改善肠道内壁。
Some of these ingredients I personally was already taking separate from the AG1 formula, so it's great to see all three of them now in the new AG1 Pro.
其中一些成分我个人已经从 AG1 配方中分离出来，所以很高兴看到这三种成分现在都出现在新的 AG1 Pro 中。
As you may know, I've been taking AG1 every single day for about 14 years now.
如您所知，我每天服用 AG1 已有大约 14 年了。
That means I discovered it and started taking it daily long before I even knew what a podcast was.
这意味着我早在知道播客是什么之前就发现了它并开始每天服用它。
I continue to take it and back it here on the podcast because it is an excellent formula, and it's now even better with the AG1 Pro formula.
我继续在播客上使用它并返回它，因为它是一个出色的公式，而且现在使用 AG1 Pro 公式甚至更好。
For a limited time, you can get an extra 20% off your first subscription to AG1 Pro by going to drinkag1.com/huberman and using the code BACK2ROUTINE.
在有限的时间内，您可以通过访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 并使用代码 BACK2ROUTINE 来获得首次订阅 AG1 Pro 的额外 20% 折扣。
So that's with a numeral two, BACK, numeral two, ROUTINE.
这就是数字二，“BACK”，数字二，“ROUTINE”。
Just go to drinkag1.com/huberman.
只需访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman。
What was the first experiment that you did on C.
你在 C 上做的第一个实验是什么？
elegans that confirmed for you that inheritance of acquired traits is real?
线虫为你证实了后天性状的遗传是真实的？
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
We set to test whether worms can produce transgenerational resistance to viruses.
我们开始测试蠕虫是否能够对病毒产生跨代抵抗力。
These worms don't have dedicated immune cells like we do.
这些蠕虫不像我们一样有专门的免疫细胞。
They don't have T cells or B cells.
他们没有 T 细胞或 B 细胞。
They defend themselves from viruses using RNA that destroy viruses, and these are called small RNAs.
它们使用可消灭病毒的 RNA 来保护自己免受病毒侵害，这些 RNA 称为小 RNA。
2006, two researchers that were studying C.
2006 年，两名正在研究 C.
elegans, Andrew Fire and Craig Mello, got the Nobel Prize for showing that there is a mechanism that regulates genes that happens through small RNAs.
线虫安德鲁·法尔 (Andrew Fire) 和克雷格·梅洛 (Craig Mello) 因证明存在一种通过小 RNA 调节基因的机制而获得诺贝尔奖。
What they've shown is that if you inject the worms with RNA molecules, which are double-stranded, they shut off the genes that match in sequence to this RNA.
他们的研究表明，如果你给蠕虫注射双链RNA分子，它们就会关闭与该RNA序列匹配的基因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So sort of like taking the specific instructions for the coffee table from your IKEA handbook, and you insert a copy of that into the book, and in doing so, you sort of erase the original page.
这有点像从宜家手册中获取咖啡桌的具体说明，然后将其副本插入书中，这样做就相当于擦除了原始页面。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Perfect explanation.
完美的解释。
They found that double-strand RNA, RNA that has two strands, is what starts the response, leading to the production of small RNA molecules, which are the ones that actually find the messenger RNA and leads to its destruction, silence it, so you don't get proteins in the end.
他们发现双链RNA，即具有两条链的RNA，是启动反应的物质，导致小RNA分子的产生，这些小RNA分子实际上找到了信使RNA并导致其破坏，使其沉默，所以最终不会得到蛋白质。
For that, they got the Nobel Prize after people found that this is conserved in many organisms, including humans.
为此，当人们发现这一点在包括人类在内的许多生物体中是保守的后，他们获得了诺贝尔奖。
And now there are now drugs, this was only in 2006, the Nobel Prize, the paper was published in '98.
现在现在有了药物，这只是2006年的诺贝尔奖，论文是98年发表的。
There are now drugs that use this mechanism.
现在已有药物利用这种机制。
It is called RNA interference.
这称为RNA干扰。
RNA interferes in the expression of a gene in the end, in the function of a gene.
RNA最终会干扰基因的表达，干扰基因的功能。
And it's also called gene silencing because these RNAs enforce the silencing of genes.
它也被称为基因沉默，因为这些 RNA 强制基因沉默。
Instead of the genes being expressed, they are silenced, and you don't manifest their function.
基因没有被表达，而是被沉默了，你也没有表现出它们的功能。
They've shown two very important things.
他们展示了两件非常重要的事情。
You don't only see the action in the cell that you injected or in the tissue that you injected, but you see it all over the worm's body.
您不仅可以看到注射的细胞或组织中的作用，还可以看到蠕虫全身的作用。
It spreads.
它蔓延开来。
This includes also the germ cells.
这还包括生殖细胞。
So if you inject the double-strand RNA just to somatic cells, even to the head, you will get also the effect in the germ cells and in the next generation.
因此，如果你只将双链RNA注射到体细胞，甚至头部，你也会在生殖细胞和下一代中得到效果。
Later, they've shown that you can just take worms and feed them on bacteria that produce this double-strand RNA, and that the double-strand and the silencing would move from the site of ingestion from the gut, where the bacteria are eaten, to the rest of the body and also to the next generation.
后来，他们证明，你可以用产生这种双链 RNA 的细菌来喂线虫，然后双链和沉默就会从细菌被吃掉的肠道摄入部位转移到身体的其他部位，甚至转移到下一代。
And this is not controversial at all.
这根本没有争议。
This is being done routinely every day by any C.
这是任何 C 每天都会例行公事地做的事情。
elegans biologist in the world.
世界线虫生物学家。
Okay, so this has been replicated a million times.
好的，这已经被复制了一百万次。
When I started my work, I wanted to see whether, in addition to artificial double-strand RNA, some natural traits can also transmit across generations because of RNA, because of small RNAs.
当我开始工作时，我想看看除了人工双链RNA之外，一些自然特征是否也可以因为RNA、因为小RNA而代代相传。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Because injecting RNAi or short interfering RNAs, that is, or putting worms into an environment with an abundance of inhibitory RNAs as an experiment is very different than worms experiencing something and then passing on that acquired trait to their offspring.
因为注射 RNAi 或短干扰 RNA，也就是说，将线虫放入含有丰富抑制性 RNA 的环境中作为实验，与线虫经历某些事情然后将获得的特征传递给后代有很大不同。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
It's just-
这只是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a world apart, in my opinion-
在我看来，这是一个不同的世界——
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
It's just much more-
这只是更多 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because one is an extreme manipulation that illustrates an underlying principle.
因为这是一种极端的操纵，说明了一个基本原则。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The other is something that, in theory, occurs in the passage of generations just naturally.
从理论上讲，另一种情况是在世代相传中自然发生的。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
We're going from the less artificial to the more artificial.
我们正在从不那么人工化走向更加人工化。
The advantage is, just like with model organisms, that the more artificial it is, the easy it is to you know exactly what you did.
优点是，就像模型生物一样，它越人工，你就越容易确切地知道你做了什么。
Just now, introduce one factor, and you can follow the result.
刚才引入一个因素，你就可以得出结果。
So this is always the trade.
所以这始终是交易。
In fact, this is probably the reason that these small RNAs evolved in the first place, to get rid of viruses and other parasitic genomic elements, and this is a mechanism to fight them.
事实上，这可能是这些小RNA最初进化的原因，为了摆脱病毒和其他寄生基因组元件，这是一种对抗它们的机制。
We demonstrated this very clearly using a fluorescent virus.
我们使用荧光病毒非常清楚地证明了这一点。
If the virus replicates successfully, the worm just turns green, and if the virus is destroyed, the worm stays black.
如果病毒复制成功，蠕虫就会变成绿色，如果病毒被破坏，蠕虫就会保持黑色。
Okay?
好的？
This is very simple.
这很简单。
It's a clear cutoff.
这是一个明确的界限。
We took worms, we infect them with a fluorescent virus, they destroy it.
我们捕获蠕虫，用荧光病毒感染它们，然后它们消灭它。
This also has been done in the past.
过去也曾这样做过。
But then what we did is we neutralized the machinery that makes small RNAs in the descendants of the worms, so they cannot make small RNAs from the start on their own because they just don't have the genes that you need to make these small RNAs.
但我们所做的是中和线虫后代中制造小RNA的机制，因此它们无法从一开始就自己制造小RNA，因为它们不具备制造这些小RNA所需的基因。
And then we ask, what will happen when we'll infect these worms with a virus?
然后我们问，当我们用病毒感染这些蠕虫时会发生什么？
Will they be green or black?
它们会是绿色还是黑色？
They can't make their own small RNAs, so they can't protect themselves on their own.
它们无法制造自己的小RNA，因此无法自行保护自己。
The only way for them to stay black, for them not having the virus replicate, is if they inherit the small RNAs from their parents, and this is exactly what happens.
对于他们来说，保持黑人身份、不让病毒复制的唯一方法是从父母那里继承小RNA，而这正是发生的情况。
All the worms' progeny, although they don't have the gene that is needed for making the small RNAs, are black.
所有蠕虫的后代，尽管不具有制造小 RNA 所需的基因，但都是黑色的。
They silence the virus, and this also continues for additional generations, okay?
他们让病毒沉默，这也会持续几代人，好吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the parent worms effectively put something into the genetic instructions of the offspring that would afford them, let's call it an advantage in this case.
因此，亲代蠕虫有效地将一些东西放入后代的遗传指令中，以供养它们，在这种情况下，我们称其为优势。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But afford them an advantage if they were to be confronted with the same thing that the parents were.
但如果他们面临与父母同样的事情，那就给他们一个优势。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
And we know exactly what this advantage is.
我们确切地知道这个优势是什么。
The advantage is our small RNAs that match the viral genome, then just chop up the virus in the next generation, and we can identify these small RNAs, the inhibitory RNAs in the descendants, although they don't have the machinery to make it, just because they inherit it.
优点是我们的小RNA与病毒基因组相匹配，然后只需在下一代中切碎病毒，我们就可以识别这些小RNA，即后代中的抑制性RNA，尽管它们没有制造它的机制，只是因为它们继承了它。
We can identify them by sequencing, RNA sequencing, which is like DNA sequencing.
我们可以通过测序来识别它们，RNA测序，就像DNA测序一样。
You actually get the actual sequence of the RNA molecules, and we can see that they correspond to the virus, and they inherit these small RNAs only if their parents were infected with them.
你实际上得到了RNA分子的实际序列，我们可以看到它们与病毒相对应，并且只有当它们的父母感染了它们时，它们才会继承这些小RNA。
It is true that also in mammals, RNAs and small RNAs are a leading candidate for something that could mediate the transmission of stress protection or also of harmful effects that transmit between generations.
确实，在哺乳动物中，RNA 和小 RNA 是介导压力保护传递或代际传递有害影响的主要候选者。
Perhaps RNA do it.
或许RNA可以做到这一点。
And it's very interesting to think about it when we talk about inheritance of memories.
当我们谈论记忆的继承时，想想这个问题就很有趣。
Can brain activity of some sort transmit, at least in these worms?
至少在这些蠕虫中，某种大脑活动可以传播吗？
I said this disclaimer multiple times.
我多次说过这个免责声明。
In mammals, we don't know.
对于哺乳动物，我们不知道。
Times will tell.
时间会证明一切。
In worms, we know a lot.
对于蠕虫，我们了解很多。
So can worms transmit brain activity?
那么蠕虫可以传递大脑活动吗？
Do they have the specificity to do it?
他们有专门的能力去做这件事吗？
I think that any tissues that transmit RNA to the next generation and affect the next generation is interesting.
我认为任何将RNA传递给下一代并影响下一代的组织都是有趣的。
The gut, muscles, everything.
肠道、肌肉，一切。
But the brain can synthesize information about the environment and about internal state and can also think ahead.
但大脑可以综合有关环境和内部状态的信息，并且还可以提前思考。
And the most provocative thing you can say is that you could plan somehow the fate of your next generation using your brain, after taking many things into the code.
你能说的最具有挑衅性的事情是，在将许多东西写入代码之后，你可以用你的大脑以某种方式计划下一代的命运。
This is-
这是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Without talking to them.
没有和他们说话。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
Without talking.
不说话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Again, we go back to this instruction manual.
我们再次回到本使用手册。
It's like writing something into the instruction manual based on your own experience.
这就像根据自己的经验将一些内容写入使用手册一样。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Right.
对。
We have to understand that the brain uses a different language than the language of inheritance.
我们必须明白，大脑使用的语言与遗传语言不同。
It keeps information in synapses, in the connections between different neurons.
它将信息保存在突触中，保存在不同神经元之间的连接中。
When you learn something, you make some connections stronger and other connections weaker, and you wire the nervous system in a different way.
当你学习一些东西时，你会加强一些联系，而另一些联系则更弱，并且你会以不同的方式连接神经系统。
On the other hand, heritable information of any sort has to go through a bottleneck of one cell, the fertilized egg, because we all start from just one cell.
另一方面，任何类型的遗传信息都必须经过一个细胞（受精卵）的瓶颈，因为我们都是从一个细胞开始的。
So the question is, can you or do you translate the information, this 3D structure information of synapses and the connection between brains in the architecture of the brain, can you somehow translate it to heritable information to a molecular form?
所以问题是，你能不能将这些信息，即突触的 3D 结构信息以及大脑结构中大脑之间的连接，以某种方式将其转化为分子形式的可遗传信息？
You can teach worms.
你可以教蠕虫。
Even though they have just 302 neurons, you can teach them simple things about the world.
尽管它们只有 302 个神经元，但您可以教它们关于世界的简单知识。
For example, you can take an odor that the worms like.
例如，您可以闻到蠕虫喜欢的气味。
The worms have thousands of odorant receptors, and they can recognize many, many, many molecules.
这些蠕虫有数千个气味受体，它们可以识别很多很多分子。
They can smell them so they can find food or avoid enemies.
它们可以闻到它们的气味，以便找到食物或躲避敌人。
You can take an odor that the worms like and pair it to something bad, like starvation.
你可以将蠕虫喜欢的气味与一些不好的东西（比如饥饿）配对。
And then the worms will learn to dislike this odor.
然后蠕虫就会学会讨厌这种气味。
We don't know that this learning involves necessarily changing the strength of synapses.
我们不知道这种学习必然涉及改变突触的强度。
It's a possibility, but it doesn't have to be the case.
这是一种可能性，但不一定是这样。
It could be that just the receptor for this particular odor is being removed.
可能只是这种特殊气味的受体被去除了。
And this is how they live.
这就是他们的生活方式。
Now they won't have the receptor, they won't smell, they won't like the odor.
现在他们不再有受体，他们不会闻到，他们不会喜欢这种气味。
This is a possibility.
这是一种可能性。
This type of thing you can perhaps, not that anyone has showed it convincingly, transmit to the next generation because all it would take is an RNA that will control this particular receptor.
这种类型的东西也许可以（虽然没有人令人信服地证明了这一点）传递给下一代，因为它所需要的只是控制这种特定受体的 RNA。
Okay?
好的？
People have shown things like that, not in C.
人们已经展示了类似的东西，但在 C 中没有。
elegans, but people have shown things like this in mammals.
线虫，但人们已经在哺乳动物身上表现出了类似的情况。
They said that you learn a certain thing, and then just in the next generation, that particular receptor would be methylated or would change, and this would transmit the response.
他们说，你学到了某种东西，然后在下一代，特定的受体就会被甲基化或改变，这就会传递反应。
And on the one hand, it could be true.
一方面，这可能是真的。
On the other hand, you need to understand, they'll need to prove, and this wasn't done convincingly enough yet, how exactly does the information transfer from the brain to the germ cells and then in the next generation from the germ cells back to the brain to where the receptor need to operate.
另一方面，你需要理解，他们需要证明，信息到底是如何从大脑转移到生殖细胞，然后在下一代从生殖细胞传回大脑，到达受体需要运作的地方，这还不够令人信服。
And this is a challenge.
这是一个挑战。
This is the current state of the field that this is something that needs to be proven.
这是该领域目前的状况，这是需要证明的事情。
What we did in C.
我们在 C 中做了什么
elegans is we showed that the brain can communicate with the next generations using small RNAs, and that this can change behavior.
在线虫中，我们发现大脑可以使用小 RNA 与下一代进行交流，这可以改变行为。
And it doesn't require any translating between any language.
而且它不需要任何语言之间的任何翻译。
It is very simple.
这很简单。
What we've shown is that if you take a worm and you change the production of small RNAs just in its brain, in the next generations, their behavior will be different, even though you don't mess with their brains.
我们已经证明，如果你改变一条线虫大脑中小RNA的产生，那么在下一代中，即使你没有扰乱它们的大脑，它们的行为也会有所不同。
This is a paper that we published in 2019 in "Cell." We show that you just manipulate the production of endogenous natural RNAs in the worm's brain that are always made, but you change their amount, and this changes the capacity of the worms in the next generation to find food, not only in one generation, but three generations down the road.
这是我们2019年发表在《Cell》上的论文。我们证明，你只需操纵蠕虫大脑中总是产生的内源性天然 RNA 的产生，但你改变了它们的数量，这就会改变下一代蠕虫寻找食物的能力，不仅是一代，而是三代。
And the way that it works is that perturbing the production of these small RNAs in the brain affects, in the end, the expression of a gene in the germline.
它的工作原理是，干扰大脑中这些小 RNA 的产生，最终会影响种系中基因的表达。
One gene is called sage-2.
有一个基因称为 sage-2。
We can do all kinds of controls where we manipulate the activity of the gene and see that this also affects behavior.
我们可以进行各种控制来操纵基因的活动，并发现这也会影响行为。
And this gene works in the germ cells.
这个基因在生殖细胞中发挥作用。
The information needs to go from the brain to the germ cells.
信息需要从大脑传递到生殖细胞。
It doesn't need to go back from the germ cells to the brain to affect behavior.
它不需要从生殖细胞返回大脑来影响行为。
And this depends, we know that this is a true epigenetic effect because it goes on for multiple generations and also because it requires the machinery that transfers RNAs between generations.
这取决于，我们知道这是一种真正的表观遗传效应，因为它会持续多代，也因为它需要在代际之间转移 RNA 的机制。
If you don't have the protein that physically carries the RNA between generation, it doesn't happen.
如果你没有在代际之间物理携带 RNA 的蛋白质，这种情况就不会发生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it has to be RNA.
所以它一定是RNA。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
It has to be RNA.
它必须是RNA。
We can also find the RNAs in the next generation that change.
我们还可以发现下一代发生变化的RNA。
We sequence the actual RNAs that change in the next generation.
我们对下一代发生变化的实际 RNA 进行测序。
So it sounds weird that you change germ cells and it changes behavior, sperm and egg.
因此，改变生殖细胞就会改变精子和卵子的行为，这听起来很奇怪。
But if you think about it, the germ cells affect the soma, including the brain, in many ways by secreting certain chemicals, and also because the other cells develop from the germ cells.
但如果你想一想，生殖细胞通过分泌某些化学物质以多种方式影响包括大脑在内的躯体，而且还因为其他细胞是从生殖细胞发育而来的。
So some information could be transmitted over development, or the course of development could be altered because of changes that occur in the germ cells.
因此，一些信息可能会在发育过程中传递，或者发育过程可能会因为生殖细胞中发生的变化而改变。
And for example, in mammals, one of the explanations for how heritable information transmits is that it just affects something very early on in development.
例如，在哺乳动物中，遗传信息如何传递的解释之一是它只会影响发育早期的某些东西。
I told you that the secret to worms' inheritance is that they have the capacity to amplify these small RNAs all the time.
我告诉过你，蠕虫遗传的秘密是它们有能力一直扩增这些小RNA。
This is what keeps it going and prevents the dilution.
这就是让它继续运行并防止稀释的原因。
In mammals, we don't know of such an amplification mechanism, so you ask, how can a little bit of RNA or something without amplifying affect then the entire organism?
在哺乳动物中，我们不知道有这样的放大机制，所以你会问，一点点RNA或者没有放大作用的东西怎么能影响整个生物体呢？
And it could be that you just perturb something in the very beginning when you just have a few cells, or even if they're in the placenta that develops in pregnancy, and this later throws everything off.
也可能是，当你一开始只有几个细胞时，或者即使它们位于怀孕期间发育的胎盘中，你只是扰乱了某些东西，然后这一切都会消失。
And because of that, you have many problems, metabolisms and so on.
正因为如此，你会遇到很多问题，比如新陈代谢等等。
And this is called the idea of the developmental origin of health and disease, that many of the functions occur early on in development.
这被称为健康和疾病的发育起源的观点，即许多功能在发育早期就出现了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, LMNT.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 LMNT。
LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.
LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。
That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium in the correct amounts, but no sugar.
这意味着电解质、钠、镁和钾的含量正确，但不含糖。
Proper hydration is critical for optimal brain and body function.
适当的水合作用对于大脑和身体的最佳功能至关重要。
Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish cognitive and physical performance.
即使是轻微程度的脱水也会降低认知和身体表现。
It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes.
获得充足的电解质也很重要。
The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are vital for functioning of all the cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells.
电解质（钠、镁和钾）对于体内所有细胞（尤其是神经元或神经细胞）的功能至关重要。
Drinking LMNT dissolved in water makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes.
饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT 可以很容易地确保您获得足够的水分和电解质。
To make sure that I'm getting proper amounts of hydration and electrolytes, I dissolve one packet of LMNT in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I first wake up in the morning, and I drink that basically first thing in the morning.
为了确保我获得适量的水合作用和电解质，当我早上第一次醒来时，我将一包 LMNT 溶解在大约 16 至 32 盎司的水中，并且我基本上早上第一件事就是喝它。
I'll also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes.
我还会在进行任何体育锻炼时饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT，尤其是在炎热的日子里，当我大量出汗并失去水和电解质时。
LMNT has a bunch of great-tasting flavors.
LMNT 有很多美味的口味。
I love the raspberry.
我喜欢覆盆子。
I love the citrus flavor.
我喜欢柑橘味。
Right now, LMNT has a limited edition lemonade flavor that is absolutely delicious.
现在LMNT推出了限量版柠檬水口味，绝对美味。
I hate to say that I love one more than all the others, but this lemonade flavor is right up there with my favorite other one, which is raspberry or watermelon.
我不想说我比其他所有口味都更喜欢其中一种，但这种柠檬水口味与我最喜欢的另一种口味（覆盆子或西瓜）不相上下。
Again, I can't pick just one flavor.
再说一次，我不能只选择一种口味。
I love them all.
我爱他们所有人。
If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman, spelled drinkL-M-N-T.com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with a purchase of any LMNT drink mix.
如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman（拼写为 DrinkL-M-N-T.com/huberman），购买任意 LMNT 混合饮料即可领取免费 LMNT 样品包。
Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.
再次强调，请访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman 索取免费样品包。
In terms of the work in either C.
就 C 中的工作而言。
elegans or in other model organisms, but in particular in C.
线虫或其他模式生物，但特别是线虫。
elegans, where do you see this going next?
线虫，你认为接下来会发生什么？
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
So assuming that we will discover similar things in humans, which we don't know that this is the case, but let's say we find it.
因此，假设我们会在人类身上发现类似的东西，我们不知道情况是否如此，但假设我们找到了它。
I think there are many things you can do before you change it.
我认为在改变之前你可以做很多事情。
You could also change aberrant inheritance by having the parent exercise, for example.
例如，您还可以通过让父项练习来更改异常继承。
And some things like this have been done.
类似这样的事情已经做过了。
For example, there are experiments in rodents where they show that overfeeding the rodents creates problems for the next generations, for the children.
例如，对啮齿动物进行的实验表明，过度喂食啮齿动物会给下一代和孩子们带来问题。
However, if you let the rodent exercise, then it corrects the aberrant inheritance.
然而，如果你让啮齿动物锻炼身体，那么它就会纠正异常的遗传。
So this is one possibility, and you can also manipulate it at the source.
所以这是一种可能，你也可以从源头上操纵它。
You can change if it's RNAs, let's say you could in the future, perhaps if we understand how it works, actually change the composition of the heritable RNAs.
如果是RNA，你就可以改变，假设你将来可以，也许如果我们了解它是如何工作的，实际上可以改变可遗传RNA的组成。
If you do IVF, if you do in vitro fertilization, you can perhaps change the composition of the RNAs in the stuff that you introduce.
如果你做 IVF，如果你做体外受精，你也许可以改变你引入的东西中 RNA 的组成。
But way before that, what you could do, perhaps even in the not so far future, is use this for diagnostics, DNA-based diagnostics for every couple that wants to have a kid.
但在那之前，你能做的，也许甚至在不久的将来，就是用它来诊断，为每对想要孩子的夫妇进行基于 DNA 的诊断。
In Israel, this is done for most couples.
在以色列，大多数夫妇都会这样做。
You can look at the DNA and look for genetic disease, but no one is looking at the RNA at the moment.
你可以通过观察 DNA 来寻找遗传疾病，但目前没有人会观察 RNA。
If we understand how it works better, we'll have another level, a whole new world to look at, and perhaps there will be some RNAs that correlate with disease.
如果我们更好地理解它是如何发挥作用的，我们就会有另一个层面，一个全新的世界可供观察，也许还会有一些与疾病相关的RNA。
The beauty is that this, unlike DNA, it's plastic.
美妙之处在于，与 DNA 不同，它是塑料的。
So with DNA, this is your DNA, perhaps we can choose another embryo.
所以有了DNA，这是你的DNA，也许我们可以选择另一个胚胎。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
But here you could say perhaps, or again, in the future, this is science fiction, doesn't happen now, but if we understand this and it's true, we can say maybe you should run on the treadmill a little bit.
但在这里你可能会说，或者再说一次，在未来，这是科幻小说，现在不会发生，但如果我们理解这一点并且这是真的，我们可以说也许你应该在跑步机上跑一点。
This will change the profile of your RNAs, and then we will use it for IVF.
这将改变您的 RNA 的概况，然后我们将其用于 IVF。
This seems more because just it correlates with healthy profiles of RNAs.
这似乎更多是因为它与健康的 RNA 谱相关。
This is a level that no one looks at now and holds great potential.
这是一个现在没人看的水平，潜力巨大。
Again, with a disclaimer that we don't know how it works in humans at all.
再次声明，我们根本不知道它在人类身上是如何发挥作用的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yet.
然而。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Yes.
是的。
But of course, this is why it's so interesting.
当然，这就是它如此有趣的原因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Today, you've taken us on an amazing journey through the genome, RNA, in particular, the work in your laboratory, which is just incredible, and also this introduction of model organisms.
今天，您带领我们踏上了基因组、RNA 的奇妙旅程，特别是您实验室的工作，这真是令人难以置信，还有模式生物的介绍。
So thank you so much.
非常感谢。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Thanks a lot.
非常感谢。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's been a real pleasure.
这真是一种乐趣。
Dr. Oded Rechavi:
奥德·雷查维博士：
Pleasure was all mine.
快乐全是我的。
Thanks a lot.
多谢。