Essentials: How to Exercise for Strength Gains & Hormone Optimization | Dr. Duncan French
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials, where we revisit past episodes for the most potent and actionable science-based tools for mental health, physical health, and performance.
欢迎来到 Huberman Lab Essentials，在这里我们回顾过去的剧集，寻找针对心理健康、身体健康和表现的最有效、最可操作的基于科学的工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
And now, my conversation with Dr. Duncan French.
现在，我与邓肯·弗伦奇博士的对话。
Duncan French, great to see you again.
邓肯·弗伦奇，很高兴再次见到你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Likewise.
同样。
Thank you.
谢谢。
I don't often have many Stanford professors in the Performance Institute, so I'm really excited.
我在表演学院的斯坦福大学教授并不多，所以我真的很兴奋。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
Oh, well, this place is amazing, and you have a huge role in making it what it is.
哦，好吧，这个地方太棒了，你在让它成为现在这个样子的过程中发挥着巨大的作用。
I found dozens of papers on how weight training impacts hormones, and your name's on all of them.
我找到了几十篇关于重量训练如何影响荷尔蒙的论文，所有这些论文上都有你的名字。
What is it about engaging motor neurons under heavy loads sends a signal to the endocrine system, "Hey, release testosterone"?
在重负荷下参与运动神经元会向内分泌系统发送信号“嘿，释放睾酮”，这是什么意思？
I've never actually been able to find that in a textbook.
我实际上从未在教科书中找到过这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I think it's the stress response, right?
是的，我认为这是压力反应，对吗？
It's mechanical stress and it's metabolic stress.
这是机械压力和代谢压力。
And these are the downstream regulation of testosterone release at the gonads comes from many different areas.
这些是性腺睾酮释放的下游调节来自许多不同的区域。
My work primarily looked at catecholamines and sympathetic arousal.
我的工作主要关注儿茶酚胺和交感神经的兴奋。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
So things like epinephrine, adrenaline.
比如肾上腺素、肾上腺素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Correct.
正确。
Yeah.
是的。
Epinephrine, adrenaline, and noradrenaline.
肾上腺素、肾上腺素和去甲肾上腺素。
How they were signaling, that signaling cascade using the HPA axis, releasing cortisol, and then looking at how that also influenced the adrenal medulla to release androgens, and then signaling that at the gonads.
他们如何发出信号，即使用 HPA 轴进行信号级联，释放皮质醇，然后观察这如何影响肾上腺髓质释放雄激素，然后向性腺发出信号。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
That raises an interesting question.
这就提出了一个有趣的问题。
So presumably weight training in women, people who don't have testes, also it increases testosterone.
因此，对于没有睾丸的女性来说，举重训练可能也会增加睾丸激素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes.
是的。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
And is that purely through the adrenals?
这纯粹是通过肾上腺吗？
When women lift weights, their adrenal glands release testosterone?
当女性举重时，她们的肾上腺会释放睾酮？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
That is the only area of testosterone release for females.
这是女性睾丸激素释放的唯一区域。
And yes, it's the same downstream cascade.
是的，这是相同的下游级联。
Obviously, the extent to which it happens is significantly less in females, but there's good data out there that shows females can increase their anabolic environment, their internal anabolic milieu, using resistance training as a stressor.
显然，这种情况在女性中发生的程度要低得多，但有充分的数据表明，女性可以使用阻力训练作为压力源来增加她们的合成代谢环境，即她们的内部合成代谢环境。
And then they get the consequent muscle tissue growth, whether it's tendon, ligament adaptations, the beneficial consequences of resistance training, which is driven by anabolic stimuli.
然后他们得到随之而来的肌肉组织生长，无论是肌腱、韧带适应，还是由合成代谢刺激驱动的阻力训练的有益结果。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I have two questions about that.
我对此有两个问题。
The first one is something that you mentioned, which is that the androgens, the testosterone comes from the adrenals under resistance loads in women.
第一个是你提到的，雄激素、睾酮来自女性在抵抗负荷下的肾上腺。
Is the same true in men?
男性也是如此吗？
We hear that the testes produce testosterone when we weight train, but do we know whether or not it's the adrenals or the testes in men that are increasing testosterone-
我们听说当我们举重训练时睾丸会产生睾酮，但我们是否知道男性的肾上腺或睾丸是否会增加睾酮？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I think that-
是的，我认为——
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
...
...
more of both, a little bit from each?
两者都多一点，各取一点？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The field is divided presently, in as much as understanding the acute adrenergic response in terms of anabolic response to exercise in an acute phase and the exposure to a stimulus that is stress-driven, which might be partly from the adrenal glands, partly from the gonads, versus a longitudinal exposure to anabolic environments, which is primarily driven by, obviously, the gonads and the release of the endocrine environment from testosterone release at the gonads.
目前，该领域存在分歧，即理解急性肾上腺素能反应，即急性期对运动的合成代谢反应和暴露于压力驱动的刺激，这可能部分来自肾上腺，部分来自性腺，而纵向暴露于合成代谢环境，显然，合成代谢环境主要由性腺和性腺释放的睾酮释放内分泌环境驱动。
So the field is split in terms of how exercise is promoting hypertrophy, muscle tissue growth, and whether that is very much an adrenal stimuli or if that's significant enough in these acute responses versus the longitudinal exposure to just elevated basal levels of anabolic testosterone habitual levels.
因此，这个领域在运动如何促进肥大、肌肉组织生长以及这是否很大程度上是一种肾上腺刺激，或者是否在这些急性反应中与纵向暴露于仅升高的合成代谢睾酮习惯水平的基础水平相比是否足够显着方面存在分歧。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
And then you mentioned that testosterone can have enhancing effects or growth effects on tendon and ligament also.
然后你提到睾酮也可以对肌腱和韧带产生增强作用或生长作用。
You don't often hear about that.
你不常听说这个。
People always think testosterone, muscle.
人们总是想到睾酮、肌肉。
But testosterone has a lot of effects on other tissues that are important for performance, it sounds like.
但听起来睾酮对其他对表现很重要的组织有很多影响。
Now, what's the story there?
现在，那里有什么故事？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
Listen, there's androgen receptors on neural tissue, on neural axons.
听着，神经组织、神经轴突上有雄激素受体。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
It's pretty much everywhere.
它几乎无处不在。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the binding capacity of testosterone and influence in different tissues within the body.
因此睾酮的结合能力及其在体内不同组织的影响。
I touched on muscle tissue, but the ligaments, the tendons, even bone, to some extent, testosterone has potential to influence that in terms of removing osteopenic kind of characteristics, et cetera.
我谈到了肌肉组织，但韧带、肌腱，甚至骨骼，在某种程度上，睾酮有可能在消除骨质减少的特征等方面产生影响。
So yeah, it's a magic hormone, let's say, with many end impacts in terms of adaptation.
所以，是的，它是一种神奇的激素，可以说，在适应方面具有许多最终影响。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
Could you say that there are some general principles of training that favor testosterone production, that somebody who's not an elite athlete could use, who's trying to use weight training to build or maintain muscle-
你能否说，有一些有利于睾丸激素产生的一般训练原则，对于非精英运动员、试图通过重量训练来增强或维持肌肉的人来说可以使用？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
...
...
lose body fat, so body recomposition, and/or stay strong and healthy for sport of a different kind?
减少体内脂肪，从而使身体重组，和/或保持强壮和健康以进行不同类型的运动？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Testosterone is really stimulated by an intensity factor, and also a volume factor.
睾丸激素实际上是由强度因素和体积因素刺激的。
Now, growth hormone is a little bit different.
现在，生长激素有点不同。
That's largely driven by an intensity factor alone.
这很大程度上是由强度因素驱动的。
If you look at many of the exercise interventions that we use to try and investigate and interrogate testosterone, it was usually a six by ten protocol.
如果你看一下我们用来尝试调查和询问睾酮激素的许多运动干预措施，你会发现它通常是六乘十的方案。
So six sets of ten repetitions, 60 repetitions is quite a large volume for a single exercise, and that was usually pitched at about 80% of a one repetition max intensity.
因此，六组，每组 10 次重复，对于单次练习来说，60 次重复是相当大的训练量，通常是单次重复最大强度的 80% 左右。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
Okay, so 80% of the one rep max, six sets of 10 reps separated by rest of like-
好的，所以 80% 的 1 次重复最多，六组，每组 10 次，其余的类似 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Two minutes
两分钟
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
...
...
two minutes.
两分钟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
Which is actually pretty fast.
这实际上相当快。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes.
是的。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
At least to me.
至少对我来说。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It is when you're-
就是当你——
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
Anytime you see these two to three minutes, when you're actually watching the clock-
每当你看到这两到三分钟，当你真正看着时钟时——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
...
...
those two-minute rest periods go by pretty fast.
两分钟的休息时间过得很快。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
By the third, fourth set, you're dying for more.
到了第三、第四盘，你会渴望更多。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We formulated that kind of exercise protocol to really target the release of testosterone and try and drive up these anabolic environments to study the endocrine consequences.
我们制定了这种锻炼方案，真正针对睾酮的释放，并尝试推动这些合成代谢环境以研究内分泌后果。
But I think that's the type of protocol that is most advantageous for driving anabolic environments.
但我认为这是最有利于驱动合成代谢环境的协议类型。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
And that was it for the workout?
这就是锻炼的目的吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
That was it.
就是这样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We would do that in a back squat.
我们会通过后蹲来做到这一点。
So again, a multi-joint, challenging exercise, multi-muscle, multi-joint, 80% load of your one repetition max, and then six by 10.
再说一次，这是一项多关节、具有挑战性的运动，多肌肉、多关节，一次重复次数最大负荷的 80%，然后是 6×10。
We did play around with your classic German volume type, 10 by 10 kind of protocols, but they were just unsustainable at that 80%.
我们确实尝试过经典的德国卷类型，即 10 x 10 种协议，但它们在 80% 的情况下是不可持续的。
The key to what we also did was we always adjusted the loads to make sure that it was 10 repetitions that were sustained.
我们所做的事情的关键是我们总是调整负载以确保能够持续 10 次重复。
So if the load was too high and an athlete or a participant had to drop the weights on the sixth repetition, we would unload the bar and make sure they completed the 10 repetitions.
因此，如果负荷太高，运动员或参与者必须在第六次重复时放下重量，我们就会卸下杠铃并确保他们完成 10 次重复。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
I see.
我明白了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Bringing me back to the point of it's an intensity and a volume derivative that is going to be most advantageous for testosterone release.
让我回到一点，强度和体积导数对于睾酮释放最有利。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
So that sort of hints at the possibility that the thresholds for going from a workout that increases testosterone to a workout that diminishes testosterone is actually a pretty narrow margin.
因此，这暗示着从增加睾酮激素的锻炼到减少睾酮激素的锻炼的阈值实际上是相当窄的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, and I think it comes back to that intensity factor then.
是的，我认为这又回到了强度因素。
What we saw, that 10 by 10 protocol really sees pretty significant drop-offs in the load.
我们看到，10 x 10 协议的负载确实出现了相当显着的下降。
And again, we're trying to stimulate with intensity, with mechanical strain through intensity, as well as metabolic strain through volume.
再次，我们试图通过强度、通过强度的机械应变以及通过体积的代谢应变来刺激。
And I think that's the paradigm that you've got to look at, is that the mechanical load has to come from the actual weight on the bar, and the volume is the metabolic stimulus.
我认为这是你必须考虑的范式，机械负荷必须来自杠铃上的实际重量，而体积是代谢刺激。
How much are we driving lactate?
我们的乳酸驾驶量是多少？
How much are we driving glycogenolysis in terms of that type of energy system for executing a 10 by 10 protocol?
就执行 10 x 10 协议的此类能量系统而言，我们在多大程度上驱动糖原分解？
And what we often saw was just a significant reduction in the intensity capabilities of an athlete to sustain that.
我们经常看到的是运动员维持这种强度的能力显着下降。
So we shortened the volume to try and maintain the intensity.
因此我们缩短了音量以尝试保持强度。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
Is there any evidence that training slowly can offset some of the negative effects of doing a lot of volume?
有没有证据表明缓慢训练可以抵消大量训练带来的一些负面影响？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The rest is often the consideration that's overlooked out there in general population and in many sporting environments.
其余的往往是普通人群和许多体育环境中被忽视的考虑因素。
The rest is as important a programming variable as the load and the intensity, the load, the volume, et cetera.
其余的都是与负荷和强度、负荷、体积等一样重要的编程变量。
If you extend the duration of your rest periods, what you're ultimately doing is influencing that metabolic stimulus again.
如果你延长休息时间，你最终所做的就是再次影响新陈代谢刺激。
You're allowing the flushing of the body, the removal of waste products, lactate to be removed from the body, and then the metabolic environment is reduced.
你可以让身体冲洗，排除废物，乳酸从体内排出，然后代谢环境就会减少。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
So if I understand correctly, you want to create a metabolic stress.
所以如果我理解正确的话，你想要产生代谢压力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
So I could, in theory, do a 45 or 60-minute session where I pack in more work per unit time.
因此，从理论上讲，我可以进行 45 或 60 分钟的课程，在单位时间内我可以完成更多的工作。
I'm not going to be able to, quote-unquote, perform as well.
我也将无法，引用-取消引用，执行同样的操作。
I won't be able to lift as much.
我将无法举起那么多东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
I'm going to have to un-weight the bar between sets or maybe even during sets if I have someone who could do that.
如果我有人可以做到这一点，我将不得不在组间或什至在组中减轻杠铃的重量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In-
在-
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
But it sounds like that's the way to go.
但听起来这就是要走的路。
So the old adage of high intensity, short duration is probably the way to go.
因此，高强度、短持续时间的古老格言可能是正确的选择。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Correct.
正确。
And in layman's terms, if the same objective, the same training goal is just muscle tissue growth, and we're not talking about maximal strength or any of those type of parameters, we're just talking about growing muscle.
通俗地说，如果相同的目标、相同的训练目标只是肌肉组织生长，我们不是在谈论最大力量或任何此类参数，我们只是在谈论肌肉增长。
If there's an athlete A and they do six sets of 10 with two minutes rest, and there's athlete B that does six sets of 10 with three minutes rest, athlete A will likely see the highest muscle gains.
如果运动员 A 做 6 组，每组 10 次，休息 2 分钟，而运动员 B 做 6 组，每组 10 次，休息 3 分钟，那么运动员 A 可能会获得最高的肌肉增益。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because of the metabolic stimulus that they're driving with the shorter rest periods.
因为他们在较短的休息时间下驾驶会产生新陈代谢刺激。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。
Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.
去年，在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我成为了 Function 成员。
Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health.
Function 提供 100 多项高级实验室测试，为您提供整个身体健康状况的关键快照。
This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more.
此快照为您提供有关心脏健康、激素健康、免疫功能、营养水平等方面的见解。
Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas.
Function 不仅提供对您的身心健康至关重要的 100 多种生物标记物的测试，而且还分析这些结果并提供相关领域专家的顶级医生的见解。
For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood.
例如，在我第一次使用 Function 进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量升高。
Function not only helped me detect that but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification.
功能不仅帮助我发现了这一点，还提供了如何最好地降低汞含量的见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼消费，我一直在吃大量金枪鱼，同时还努力多吃绿叶蔬菜并补充 NAC、N-乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒。
And I should say, by taking a second Function test, that approach worked.
我应该说，通过进行第二次功能测试，这种方法奏效了。
Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important.
全面的血液检测至关重要。
There are so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test.
有很多与您的心理和身体健康相关的事情只能通过血液检查来检测。
The problem is blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated.
问题是血液检测一直非常昂贵且复杂。
In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost.
相比之下，Function 的简单性和成本水平给我留下了深刻的印象。
It is very affordable.
这是非常实惠的。
As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.
因此，我决定加入他们的科学顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。
If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Function，可以访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。
Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman podcast listeners.
Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等待名单，但他们正在为 Huberman 播客听众提供早期访问服务。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.
同样，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。
What about day-to-day recovery?
日常恢复怎么样？
The workout that you described is intense but short.
您所描述的锻炼强度大但时间短。
How many days a week can the typical person do that and sustain progress?
一般人每周可以有多少天做到这一点并保持进步？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I think that comes back to your training age and your training history.
是的，我认为这又回到了你的训练年龄和你的训练历史。
Obviously, there's a resilience and a robustness with an incremental training age.
显然，随着训练年龄的增长，会产生弹性和稳健性。
So a protocol like that, we would look at two times a week, something that's pretty intensive like that.
因此，像这样的协议，我们每周会看两次，这是相当密集的事情。
Because, again, it comes back to the point you make, is that you really need to be, for want of a better term, suffering a little bit through that type of protocol, both in terms of the challenge of the load, but also being able to tolerate the metabolic stress that you're exposed to.
因为，这又回到了你提出的观点，那就是，为了找到一个更好的术语，你确实需要通过这种类型的方案来承受一点痛苦，无论是在负荷的挑战方面，还是在能够忍受你所面临的代谢压力方面。
It's a- It's a bit of a sicko feeling, right?
这是--有点恶心的感觉，对吧？
Because of the lactate that you're driving up.
因为你的乳酸升高了。
So I wouldn't promote an athlete doing that type of modality multiple times unless you're from the realms of bodybuilding, and then that's the sole purpose of what you're trying to achieve.
因此，我不会提倡运动员多次进行这种类型的训练，除非您来自健美领域，而这就是您想要实现的唯一目的。
If it's just somebody, a weekend warrior that wants to keep in shape and look good, I would say, two times a week for a really challenging workout like that, and then flex the other types of workouts within the week to have more of a volume emphasis, where you reduce the intensity and you might just look at larger rep ranges from 12 to 15 to 20.
如果只是一个人，一个周末战士想要保持身材和看起来不错，我会说，每周两次进行像这样真正具有挑战性的锻炼，然后在一周内调整其他类型的锻炼以更加强调训练量，在这种情况下，你降低强度，你可能只需要考虑更大的次数范围，从 12 到 15 到 20。
Another workout where you're looking at reducing the volume but increasing the intensity and really trying to drive different stimulus to give you more endpoints of success.
另一种锻炼方法是减少训练量，但增加强度，并真正尝试驱动不同的刺激，为您带来更多成功的终点。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Last time I was here at the UFC Performance Institute, we had a brief conversation, and I want to make sure I got the details right.
上次我在 UFC 表演学院时，我们进行了一次简短的交谈，我想确保我的细节是正确的。
That in the short term, and a big increase in stress hormone can lead to an increase in testosterone, like a parachute jump.
从短期来看，压力荷尔蒙的大幅增加会导致睾丸激素的增加，就像跳伞一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Correct.
正确。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
But so stress can promote the release of testosterone.
但因此压力可以促进睾丸激素的释放。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
That was news to me.
这对我来说是新闻。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
We always hear about stress suppressing testosterone, stress suppressing the immune system, all these terrible things.
我们总是听说压力会抑制睾丸激素，压力会抑制免疫系统，所有这些可怕的事情。
But in the short term, you're saying it can actually increase the release of testosterone.
但从短期来看，你说它实际上可以增加睾酮的释放。
So I have that right?
那我有这个权利吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Correct.
正确。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
And so then the second question is, does my cognitive interpretation of the stressor make a difference?
那么第二个问题是，我对压力源的认知解释会产生影响吗？
In other words, if I voluntarily jump out of a plane with a parachute, does it have a different effect on my testosterone than if you shove me out of the plane against my will?
换句话说，如果我自愿带着降落伞从飞机上跳下来，这对我的睾丸激素的影响是否与你违背我的意愿将我推出飞机的效果不同？
Well, presumably with a parachute-
嗯，大概是带着降落伞——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
...
...
too.
也是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So this was what all my PhD work was looking at, was the exposure to a stressor and the pre-arousal of how your body essentially prepares for that stressor, and then how it manages it throughout the exposure to the stress.
所以这就是我所有的博士工作所关注的，是暴露于压力源以及你的身体如何为该压力源做好准备的预唤醒，以及在整个暴露于压力源的过程中如何管理它。
We use a resistance training protocol that these athletes knew was going to be very challenging.
我们使用阻力训练方案，这些运动员知道这将是非常具有挑战性的。
There's going to have some anxiety to doing it.
这样做会产生一些焦虑。
They knew there were going to be some physical distress from doing it.
他们知道这样做会给身体带来一些痛苦。
And therefore, their mindset of how they were going to approach that was already set.
因此，他们对于如何实现这一目标的心态已经确定。
So what we saw 15 minutes prior to the start of an exposure to the workout, the epinephrine, the noradrenaline, the adrenaline was already starting to prepare the body sympathetically, to go into what it knew was going to be a very challenging workout.
因此，我们在锻炼开始前 15 分钟看到，肾上腺素、去甲肾上腺素、肾上腺素已经开始让身体做好准备，进入它知道将是一项非常具有挑战性的锻炼。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
So what was the takeaway there?
那么那里的外卖是什么？
Is the stress good for performance, or is it harmful?
压力对表现有好处还是有害？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a great question.
这是一个很好的问题。
From my data, certainly, the greater the arousal, the higher the performance was from a physical exertion perspective.
从我的数据来看，当然，从体力消耗的角度来看，唤醒程度越高，表现就越高。
There's definitely an individual biokinetics to some of these hormonal kind of releases.
其中一些激素的释放肯定存在个体的生物动力学。
In as much as those guys that had the highest adrenergic response in terms of epinephrine release, norepinephrine release, also sustained force output for a longer period of the workout than those that didn't.
那些在肾上腺素释放、去甲肾上腺素释放方面具有最高肾上腺素反应的人，也比那些没有的人在训练中维持更长时间的力量输出。
So the individuals that had a lower stimulus of the sympathetic arousal, let's say, certainly didn't perform as well throughout the workout.
因此，可以说，交感神经兴奋刺激较低的人在整个锻炼过程中肯定表现不佳。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
There's another side to this that I want to ask about, which is the use of cold.
我想问的是这个问题的另一面，那就是冷的使用。
In particular, things like ice baths, cold showers.
特别是冰浴、冷水淋浴等。
In theory, that's stress also.
从理论上讲，这也是压力。
It's epinephrine.
这是肾上腺素。
And so, how should one think about the use of cold for recovery?
那么，人们应该如何看待利用寒冷来恢复呢？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Throwing your body into a cold tub, an ice bath, or whatever it may be, certainly is going to have a physiological stress response.
将你的身体扔进冷水浴缸、冰浴或其他任何东西中，肯定会产生生理应激反应。
Now, people are using that for different end goals.
现在，人们将其用于不同的最终目标。
And again, I think that's where the narrative has to be explained.
再说一次，我认为这就是必须解释叙述的地方。
If you are using the stress specifically to manage the mindset, to use it as a specific stress stimulus, that's the same as me doing six by 10, 80%.
如果你专门使用压力来管理心态，将其用作特定的压力刺激，那就和我做 6 x 10、80% 一样。
You're just trying to find something to disrupt the system to do something that's very, for want of a better term, painful, discomfort, whatever.
你只是想找到一些东西来扰乱系统，去做一些非常痛苦、不舒服的事情，因为缺乏更好的术语。
You're just finding a stressor and then being able to manage the mindset.
你只是找到一个压力源，然后能够管理心态。
But if you're using cold, specifically from a physiological perspective to promote redistribution of vascularity, of blood flow, to different vascular areas of muscle that you feel have gone through a workout that are damaged or whatever it may be, I think we've got to understand what that stress mechanism is.
但如果你使用寒冷，特别是从生理角度来看，促进血管、血流、肌肉不同血管区域的重新分配，而你觉得这些区域在训练中受到了损伤或可能是什么，我认为我们必须了解压力机制是什么。
And the data, the literature is certainly still out there with respect to cryotherapy and cold baths and some of these cold exposures in terms of what they do at the level of the muscle tissue.
关于冷冻疗法和冷水浴以及其中一些冷暴露在肌肉组织水平上的作用，数据、文献肯定仍然存在。
If that's the target, if you're trying to promote a flushing mechanism, or you're trying to promote redistribution of the blood flow, what you've got to understand is that cold is going to clamp down every part of the vascular system.
如果这是目标，如果你试图促进冲洗机制，或者你试图促进血流的重新分配，你必须明白寒冷会抑制血管系统的每个部分。
And we've really got to understand how the muscle would be redistributed to areas of interest.
我们确实必须了解肌肉如何重新分配到感兴趣的区域。
So, I think the stress response is a real thing with respect to cold exposure.
所以，我认为对于寒冷暴露而言，压力反应是真实存在的。
But I think the narrative around what are you using the cold for has to precede the conversation.
但我认为围绕你用感冒做什么的叙述必须在谈话之前进行。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
And cold, I've heard, can actually prevent some of the beneficial effects of training.
我听说，寒冷实际上会阻碍训练的一些有益效果。
That it can actually get in the way of muscle growth, et cetera.
它实际上会妨碍肌肉生长等等。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, there's some pretty robust data out there now showing that it definitely has an influence on performance variables like strength and power in particular, but absolutely in terms of muscle hypertrophy.
是的，现在有一些相当可靠的数据表明，它肯定会对力量和爆发力等性能变量产生影响，但绝对是在肌肉肥大方面。
And there's a big kind of theme in the world of athletic performance right now in terms of periodization of cold exposure as a recovery modality.
目前，运动表现界有一个很大的主题，即将寒冷暴露作为一种恢复方式进行分期。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
Interesting.
有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When do you use cold?
什么时候用冷气？
Should you be using cold for recovery in periods of high training load when you're actually pursuing maybe general preparatory work, where you're actually trying to pursue muscle growth?
当你实际上在进行一般的准备工作、实际上是在努力追求肌肉增长时，你是否应该在高训练负荷期间使用寒冷来恢复？
Well, that's usually where you get the most sore.
嗯，这通常是你最痛苦的地方。
It's usually where you feel the most fatigued, but it's probably not the most beneficial approach to use an ice bath in that scenario because you're dampening, you're dulling the mTOR pathway and the hypertrophic signaling pathway.
这通常是您感到最疲劳的地方，但在这种情况下使用冰浴可能不是最有益的方法，因为您会抑制、减弱 mTOR 通路和肥大信号通路。
Whereas in a competition phase, where actually quality of exercise and quality of execution of skill and technical work has to be maintained, you want to throw the kitchen sink of recovery capabilities and recovery interventions in that scenario because now the muscle-building activity should be in the bank.
然而在比赛阶段，实际上必须保持锻炼的质量以及技能和技术工作的执行质量，在这种情况下，你想把恢复能力和恢复干预措施扔到厨房水槽，因为现在肌肉锻炼活动应该放在银行里。
That should've been done in the general preparatory work, and now you're focusing on technical execution.
一般的准备工作应该已经完成了，现在你要专注于技术执行。
So you're absolutely right.
所以你是完全正确的。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
That's interesting.
这很有趣。
So if I understand correctly, if I want to maximize muscle growth or power or improvements and adaptations, then the inflammation response, the delayed onset muscle soreness, all the stuff that's uncomfortable and that we hear is so terrible, is actually the stimulus for adaptation.
所以，如果我理解正确的话，如果我想最大化肌肉生长或力量或改善和适应，那么炎症反应、延迟发生的肌肉酸痛、所有不舒服的东西以及我们听到的如此可怕的东西实际上都是适应的刺激物。
And so using cold in that situation might short-circuit my progress.
因此在这种情况下使用寒冷可能会缩短我的进度。
But if I'm, I don't know that I'll ever do this, but if I were to do an Ironman or something or run a marathon, under those conditions, I'm basically coming to the race, so to speak, with all the power and strength I'm going to have.
但如果我是，我不知道我会这样做，但如果我要参加铁人三项赛或其他什么或跑马拉松，在这些条件下，我基本上会参加比赛，可以这么说，带着我将拥有的所有力量和力量。
And so there, reducing inflammation is good because it's going to allow me to perform more work, essentially.
因此，减少炎症是有好处的，因为它本质上可以让我完成更多的工作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Yeah.
是的。
You have to be strategic about when you use some of these interventions.
当你使用其中一些干预措施时，你必须有策略。
And the time when you're preparing for a competition is the appropriate time when you want to drive recovery and make sure that your body is optimized.
当您准备比赛时，正是您想要促进恢复并确保您的身体处于最佳状态的适当时间。
When you're far away from a competition date or out of season or whatever it may be, and you're really trying to just tear up the body a little bit to allow its natural healing and adaptation processes to take place, well, you don't want to negate that.
当你远离比赛日期或淡季或其他任何可能的情况时，你真的想稍微撕裂身体以使其自然愈合和适应过程发生，那么，你不想否认这一点。
You want the body to optimize its internal recovery, and that's how muscle growth is going to happen.
你希望身体优化其内部恢复，这就是肌肉生长的方式。
So-
所以——
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
So interesting
太有趣了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
there's a time kind of consideration that you need to make with these interventions, for sure.
当然，您需要对这些干预措施进行时间考虑。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
At the UFC Performance Center, are the fighters periodizing their cold exposure, or are they just doing cold at will?
在UFC表演中心，拳手们是在周期性地进行寒冷暴露，还是只是随意地进行寒冷暴露？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, it's not just the UFC, and again, I talk about my personal experiences with different sports.
嗯，不仅仅是UFC，我再次谈论我在不同运动中的个人经历。
I think just education around where science is at and our understanding of concepts like the use of cold exposure for recovery, ice bath.
我认为只是围绕科学的所在以及我们对概念的理解进行教育，例如使用冷暴露来恢复、冰浴。
Everyone wants to jump in an ice bath.
每个人都想跳进冰浴里。
But I think as we've stepped back and scientists have started to figure out and look at some of the data, we're now more intuitive about, well, actually, that might not be the best or the most optimal approach, and I think that's any given sport.
但我认为，随着我们退后一步，科学家们开始弄清楚并查看一些数据，我们现在更加直观地认识到，事实上，这可能不是最好或最优化的方法，我认为任何特定的运动都是如此。
So yes, certainly here at the UFC, we're trying to educate our athletes around appropriate timing, and it's the same with nutrition.
所以，是的，当然在 UFC，我们正在努力在适当的时机教育我们的运动员，营养方面也是如此。
It's the same with an ice bath intervention.
冰浴干预也是如此。
It's the same with lifting weights.
举重也是如此。
It's the same with going for a run or working out on the bike.
跑步或骑自行车锻炼是一样的。
There's tactics to when you do things and when you don't do things, and I think stress and cold exposure, we have to have a consideration around that as well.
当你做事和当你不做事时有策略，我认为压力和寒冷暴露，我们也必须对此进行考虑。
But it's not just MMA fighters.
但这不仅仅是综合格斗选手。
That's any athlete.
那是任何运动员。
And I think the best professionals, the most successful professionals, do that really well.
我认为最好的专业人士、最成功的专业人士在这方面做得非常好。
They listen, number one, they educate themselves, and then they build structure.
第一，他们倾听，他们自我教育，然后他们建立结构。
And I think at the most elite level, we always talk about it here at the UFC, but the most elite level, you're not necessarily training harder than anybody else.
我认为在最精英级别，我们总是在 UFC 谈论它，但在最精英级别，你不一定比其他人更努力地训练。
Everybody in the UFC trains hard.
UFC 的每个人都刻苦训练。
Everyone is training super hard.
每个人都在非常努力地训练。
But the best athletes, the true elite levels, are the ones that can do it again and again and again on a daily basis and sustain a technical output for skill development.
但最好的运动员，真正的精英水平，是那些能够每天一次又一次地做到这一点并维持技能发展的技术输出的人。
Therefore, their skills can improve, or physical development, their physical attributes can improve.
因此，他们的技能可以提高，或者身体发育，他们的身体属性可以提高。
So that ability to reproduce on a day-to-day basis falls into a recovery conversation.
因此，日常繁殖的能力属于恢复对话。
Now, when is the right time to use something like an ice bath and when isn't is part of the high-performance conversation, for sure.
现在，什么时候适合使用冰浴之类的东西，什么时候不适合，这当然是高性能对话的一部分。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Eight Sleep.
我想稍微休息一下，并向我们的赞助商“八睡”表示感谢。
Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity.
August Sleep 生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。
One of the best ways to ensure a great night's sleep is to make sure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct, and that's because in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees.
确保一夜好眠的最佳方法之一是确保睡眠环境的温度正确，这是因为为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的体温实际上必须下降约一到三度。
And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees.
为了醒来时感觉神清气爽、精力充沛，您的体温实际上必须升高约一到三度。
Eight Sleep automatically regulates the temperature of your bed throughout the night according to your unique needs.
八睡眠会根据您的独特需求自动调节整个晚上的床温。
I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for over four years now, and it has completely transformed and improved the quality of my sleep.
我已经睡在八睡眠床垫罩上四年多了，它彻底改变并改善了我的睡眠质量。
Eight Sleep has just launched their latest model, the Pod 5, and the Pod 5 has several new important features.
八睡眠刚刚推出了他们的最新型号 Pod 5，Pod 5 有几个新的重要功能。
One of these new features is called Autopilot.
这些新功能之一称为自动驾驶仪。
Autopilot is an AI engine that learns your sleep patterns to adjust the temperature of your sleeping environment across different sleep stages.
Autopilot 是一款人工智能引擎，可以学习您的睡眠模式，以调整不同睡眠阶段的睡眠环境温度。
It also elevates your head if you're snoring, and it makes other shifts to optimize your sleep.
如果您打鼾，它还会抬高您的头部，并进行其他转换以优化您的睡眠。
The base on the Pod 5 also has an integrated speaker that syncs to the Eight Sleep app and can play audio to support relaxation and recovery.
Pod 5 的底座还配有一个集成扬声器，可与八睡眠应用程序同步，并可以播放音频以支持放松和恢复。
The audio catalog includes several NSDR, Non-Sleep Deep Rest, scripts that I worked on with Eight Sleep to record.
音频目录包括几个 NSDR、非睡眠深度休息以及我与“八睡眠”一起录制的脚本。
NSDR can help offset some of the negative effects of slight sleep deprivation, and NSDR gets you better at falling back asleep should you wake up in the middle of the night.
NSDR 可以帮助抵消轻微睡眠不足的一些负面影响，并且 NSDR 可以让您在半夜醒来时更好地重新入睡。
It's an extremely powerful tool that anyone can benefit from the first time and every time.
这是一个极其强大的工具，任何人第一次和每次都可以从中受益。
If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, go to eightsleep.com/huberman to get up to $350 off the new Pod 5.
如果您想尝试八睡眠，请访问八睡眠.com/huberman，新款 Pod 5 最高可享受 350 美元优惠。
Eight Sleep ships to many countries worldwide, including Mexico and the UAE.
八号睡眠船运往世界各地的许多国家，包括墨西哥和阿联酋。
Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $350.
同样，访问八睡眠.com/huberman 最多可节省 350 美元。
For somebody that wants to get better at sport, do you recommend a particularly long or short training session?
对于想要在运动方面取得更好成绩的人，您会推荐特别长还是特别短的训练课程吗？
Does intensity matter, or is it just reps?
强度重要吗，还是只是次数？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, it's not a volume-driven exercise.
不，这不是一个以训练量为导向的练习。
It's a quality-driven exercise.
这是一项以质量为导向的练习。
It is about rehearsal of accurate movement, accurate movement mechanics.
这是关于准确动作、准确动作力学的排练。
And as soon as that becomes impacted by fatigue or inaccurate movement, you're now losing the motor learning.
一旦受到疲劳或不准确运动的影响，你就会失去运动学习能力。
You're losing the accuracy of the skill that people can call it muscle memory or whatever they want, right?
你正在失去人们可以称之为肌肉记忆或任何他们想要的东西的技能的准确性，对吗？
But essentially, you're grooving neural axons to create movement patterns, and they're situational throughout sport, right?
但本质上，你正在刻划神经轴突来创建运动模式，并且它们在整个运动中都是情境性的，对吗？
Whether it's a Cruyff turn in soccer or a jump shot in basketball or a forehand down the line, you can carve out that particular posture and position and skill, and you can isolate it, and you can drill it again and again and again.
无论是足球中的克鲁伊夫转身、篮球中的跳投还是底线正手击球，你都可以塑造出特定的姿势、位置和技巧，你可以将它孤立起来，你可以一次又一次地练习它。
Now, as soon as fatigue is influencing that repetition, it's time to stop, and the best coaches understand that.
现在，一旦疲劳影响了重复，就该停止了，最好的教练都明白这一点。
It's shorter sessions that are very high quality, and I think the best athletes, in my experience, are the ones that consciously and cognitively Are aware of it at every moment of the training session.
这是较短的训练，但质量非常高，根据我的经验，我认为最好的运动员是那些在训练的每时每刻都有意识和认知地意识到这一点的人。
A three-hour session versus a 90-minute session, we'll take the 90-minute session any day when it comes to skill acquisition, because that's going to be driven by quality over quantity.
三小时的课程与 90 分钟的课程相比，在技能获取方面，我们每天都会选择 90 分钟的课程，因为这将由质量而非数量驱动。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Training and skill learning is incredibly mentally fatiguing.
培训和技能学习令人难以置信的精神疲劳。
You hit a really hard workout or run early in the day.
您进行了非常艰苦的锻炼或在一天的早些时候跑步。
What leads to the mental fatigue after physical performance?
是什么原因导致体育锻炼后精神疲劳？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you have an amazing coach who is setting up training in a particular way, it's challenging.
如果你有一位出色的教练，他以特定的方式安排训练，那就很有挑战性。
There's a strain related to it, and I'm not talking physical strain, I'm talking figuring things out, figuring out the skill.
有一种与之相关的压力，我不是在谈论身体压力，我是在谈论弄清楚事情，弄清楚技能。
And I think that can be stressful.
我认为这可能会带来压力。
If they hit the right technique, that reward center in the brain, that dopamine shot is going to fly up there, and there's only so many times that we can get that before that becomes dampened.
如果他们击中了正确的技巧，即大脑中的奖励中心，多巴胺就会飞到那里，而在它被抑制之前，我们只能得到这么多次。
And I think there's an energetic piece to it.
我认为其中有一个充满活力的部分。
There's the fueling of the brain.
这是大脑的燃料。
There's the carbohydrate fuel in exercise that actually the strategy around how you fuel for learning and fuel for physical training is actually pretty similar.
运动中存在碳水化合物燃料，实际上，为学习提供能量和为体育训练提供能量的策略实际上非常相似。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
Glucose.
葡萄糖。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It's glucose.
这是葡萄糖。
It's sugar at the end of the day, right?
一天结束时它是糖，对吗？
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
Do you think that nutrition that doesn't include a lot of glucose, doesn't include a lot of carbohydrates, is a problem?
您认为不含大量葡萄糖、不含大量碳水化合物的营养有问题吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Again, disclaimer, I'm not a dietician.
再次声明，我不是营养师。
But I think it comes down to metabolic efficiency.
但我认为这取决于新陈代谢效率。
We rarely advocate a high-performance athlete in a high-intensity intermittent sport like MMA being totally ketogenic, because at the end of the day, some of those high-intensity efforts usually require carbohydrate fueling for the energy produced at those high intensities.
我们很少提倡高水平运动员在像综合格斗这样的高强度间歇性运动中完全生酮，因为归根结底，一些高强度运动通常需要碳水化合物来补充高强度产生的能量。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
Can I interrupt you real quick?
我可以很快打断你吗？
What about ketones for people that are ingesting carbohydrates?
对于摄入碳水化合物的人来说，酮怎么样？
This is an interesting area because people always hear ketones and they think, "Oh, I have to be ketogenic to benefit from taking ketones."
这是一个有趣的领域，因为人们总是听到酮，他们就会想，“哦，我必须生酮才能从服用酮中受益。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
But there are a number of athletes, and recreational athletes now as well, taking liquid or powder-based ketones even though they do eat rice and oatmeal and bread and other things.
但现在有许多运动员和休闲运动员服用液体或粉末状酮，尽管他们确实吃米饭、燕麦片、面包和其他东西。
So are there any known benefits of ketones even if one is not in a state of ketosis?
那么，即使一个人没有处于酮症状态，酮是否有任何已知的好处呢？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The use of ketones that I'm primarily aware of in our sport is after the event, in terms of the brain health with athletes that potentially taking trauma to the brain, et cetera, and looking to maintain the fueling and the energy supply to the brain.
我在我们的运动中主要意识到酮的使用是在比赛结束后，就运动员的大脑健康而言，可能会对大脑造成创伤等，并希望维持大脑的燃料和能量供应。
But yes, it's probably a little bit out of my remit, so I don't want to talk on that because I'm not fully familiar with that.
但是，是的，这可能有点超出我的职权范围，所以我不想谈论这个，因为我对此并不完全熟悉。
To come back to your original question, if it's a general population, then yes, I think there's a place to argue that actually being on a ketogenic diet at times, and maybe that's to cycling exercise, I don't mean cycling a bike, I mean cycling ketosis, is beneficial because I think it's going to lead to better metabolic management and metabolic efficiency at those lower intensities where we should be fueling our metabolism with lipids and fats.
回到你原来的问题，如果是一般人群，那么是的，我认为有一个地方可以争论，实际上有时进行生酮饮食，也许这就是骑自行车运动，我不是说骑自行车，我的意思是骑自行车酮症，是有益的，因为我认为这将在那些较低强度下带来更好的代谢管理和代谢效率，我们应该用脂质和脂肪来促进新陈代谢。
Clearly the Western diet and the modern-day diet is heavily driven by processed foods and carbohydrates that people become predisposed to utilization of that fuel source above lipid use, fat use, at intensities that are very low.
显然，西方饮食和现代饮食在很大程度上是由加工食品和碳水化合物驱动的，人们倾向于以非常低的强度利用这种燃料来源，而不是脂质使用、脂肪使用。
So some of our data with the fighters shows that as well.
我们与战斗机的一些数据也表明了这一点。
But I think the challenge for us is that we're working with a clientele that require high-intensity bouts of effort.
但我认为我们面临的挑战是我们正在与需要高强度努力的客户合作。
So fueling appropriately is very important for that.
因此，适当补充能量对此非常重要。
Now, we use tactics here where we essentially have athletes on what you would say is largely a ketogenic diet, but then we will fuel carbohydrates around training sessions.
现在，我们在这里使用的策略是让运动员基本上采用生酮饮食，但随后我们将在训练期间补充碳水化合物。
So we'll do very timed exposure to carbohydrates.
所以我们会非常定时地接触碳水化合物。
So it's not-
所以这不是——
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
Post-training
培训后
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
post-training, immediately pre, during, and then immediately post.
培训后、培训前、培训期间、培训后立即。
And then the rest of their diets, breakfast, lunch, and dinner, are what would look like ketogenic type approaches.
然后他们的其余饮食，早餐、午餐和晚餐，看起来都是生酮类型的方法。
So we're trying to be very tactical in the exposure to maximize the intensity for the training, and then return to a metabolically efficient diet, which is heavily reduced in carbohydrate because we've fueled the sessions that need it.
因此，我们在暴露方面采取非常策略性的做法，以最大限度地提高训练强度，然后恢复代谢高效的饮食，这种饮食中碳水化合物的含量大大减少，因为我们已经为需要的训练提供了能量。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
The way I understand metabolic efficiency is that you teach the body to use fats by maybe doing long bouts of cardio, maybe lowering carbohydrates a bit.
我理解代谢效率的方式是，你可以通过长时间的有氧运动，或者稍微降低碳水化合物来教会身体使用脂肪。
So teaching the body to tap into its fat stores for certain periods of training.
因此，教导身体在某些训练期间利用其脂肪储存。
And then you also teach the body to utilize carbohydrates by supplying carbohydrates immediately after training and before training.
然后，您还可以通过在训练后和训练前立即提供碳水化合物来教会身体利用碳水化合物。
You teach the body to use ketones, and then you use them at the appropriate time, as opposed to just deciding that one of these fuel sources is good and all the others are bad or dispensable.
你教身体使用酮，然后在适当的时间使用它们，而不是仅仅决定这些燃料来源之一是好的，而所有其他的都是坏的或可有可无的。
Do I have that correct?
我说的对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes, you're absolutely right.
是的，你说得完全正确。
At low intensities of exercise or just day-to-day living, we shouldn't be tapping into our carbohydrate fuel sources extensively.
在低强度运动或只是日常生活中，我们不应该广泛利用碳水化合物燃料来源。
That's for higher intensity work or the fight or flight needs of stress.
这是为了更高强度的工作或应对压力的战斗或逃跑的需要。
If athletes or any individual has a high carbohydrate diet, they're going to start to become predisposed to utilizing that fuel source preferentially.
如果运动员或任何人有高碳水化合物饮食，他们将开始倾向于优先利用该燃料来源。
Now, at low intensity, that can be problematic, certainly for an athlete, because if they preferentially use carbohydrate at lower intensities, when the exercise demand goes to a higher intensity, they've already exhausted their fuel stores.
现在，在低强度下，这可能会产生问题，尤其是对于运动员来说，因为如果他们优先使用较低强度的碳水化合物，那么当运动需求达到较高强度时，他们已经耗尽了能量储备。
They can't draw upon fat because the oxidization of that fat is just too slow.
它们无法吸收脂肪，因为脂肪的氧化速度太慢。
So they essentially now become fatigued, because they've already utilized the carbohydrate stores.
所以他们现在基本上变得疲劳了，因为他们已经利用了碳水化合物的储存。
So what we try to do, yes, through diet manipulation and a little bit of exercise manipulation is, as you say, teach the body or train the body to preferentially use a specific fuel source, fat obviously at lower intensities and carbohydrate at high intensities.
所以我们试图做的，是的，通过饮食控制和一点运动控制，正如你所说，教导身体或训练身体优先使用特定的燃料来源，明显在较低强度时使用脂肪，在高强度时使用碳水化合物。
And we look at specifically the crossover point between the two tells a lot in terms of how an athlete is ultimately, how their metabolism is working.
我们特别关注两者之间的交叉点，这可以说明运动员最终的表现以及他们的新陈代谢如何运作。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
I think most people are looking for that one pattern of eating, that one pattern of exercising that's going to be best for them or sustain them, and they often look back to the time when they felt so much better switching from one thing to the next.
我认为大多数人都在寻找一种最适合他们或维持他们的饮食模式、锻炼模式，他们经常回顾从一件事切换到另一件事时感觉好多了的时光。
But the adaptation process itself is also key, right?
但适应过程本身也很关键，对吧？
Teaching the body.
教导身体。
So if we were to just riff on this just a little bit further, if somebody is eating in a particular way and they want to try this kind of periodization of nutrition, could one say, "Okay, for a few weeks, I'm going to do more high-intensity interval training and weight training, and I'm going to eat a bit more carbohydrate because I'm depleting more glycogen"?
因此，如果我们再进一步讨论这个问题，如果有人以某种特定的方式饮食，并且他们想尝试这种营养周期化，有人会说，“好吧，几周内，我将进行更多的高强度间歇训练和重量训练，并且我将吃更多的碳水化合物，因为我会消耗更多的糖原”？
Then if I switch to a phase of my training where I'm doing some longer runs, maybe I'm training less, maybe I'm just working at my desk a little bit more, then I might switch to a lower carbohydrate diet.
然后，如果我切换到训练的一个阶段，进行更长距离的跑步，也许我训练较少，也许我只是在办公桌前工作多一点，那么我可能会切换到低碳水化合物饮食。
Do I have that right?
我有这个权利吗？
And then if I'm going to enter a competition of some sort, certainly not UFC-
然后如果我要参加某种比赛，当然不是 UFC-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
...
...
or MMA of any kind, to be clear.
或任何类型的综合格斗（MMA），需要明确的是。
Not because it isn't a wonderful sport, but because that wouldn't be good for my other profession.
并不是因为它不是一项精彩的运动，而是因为这对我的其他职业不利。
But if I were going to do that, then I would think about stacking carbohydrates, ketones, and fats.
但如果我要这样做，那么我会考虑堆积碳水化合物、酮和脂肪。
Do I have that more or less right?
我或多或少有这样的权利吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You said it eloquently.
你说得很有道理。
At the end of the day, you're consciously understanding what the exposure to physical exertion is, and you're flexing your diet accordingly.
一天结束时，您会有意识地了解体力消耗的情况，并相应地调整饮食。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
We've known for a long time that there are things that we can do to improve our sleep, and that includes things that we can take, things like magnesium threonate, theanine, chamomile extract, and glycine, along with lesser-known things like saffron and valerian root.
我们很早就知道，我们可以采取一些措施来改善睡眠，其中包括我们可以服用的东西，例如苏糖酸镁、茶氨酸、洋甘菊提取物和甘氨酸，以及一些不太为人所知的物质，例如藏红花和缬草根。
These are all clinically supported ingredients that can help you fall asleep, stay asleep, and wake up feeling more refreshed.
这些都是经过临床支持的成分，可以帮助您入睡、保持睡眠状态，并且醒来时感觉更加神清气爽。
I'm excited to share that our longtime sponsor, AG1, just created a new product called AGZ, a nightly drink designed to help you get better sleep and have you wake up feeling super refreshed.
我很高兴与大家分享，我们的长期赞助商 AG1 刚刚创造了一款名为 AGZ 的新产品，这是一种夜间饮料，旨在帮助您获得更好的睡眠，让您醒来时感觉神清气爽。
Over the past few years, I've worked with the team at AG1 to help create this new AGZ formula.
在过去的几年里，我与 AG1 的团队合作，帮助创建了这个新的 AGZ 公式。
It has the best sleep-supporting compounds in exactly the right ratios in one easy-to-drink mix.
它在一种易于饮用的混合物中以完全正确的比例含有最好的睡眠支持化合物。
This removes all the complexity of trying to forage the vast landscape of supplements focused on sleep and figuring out the right dosages and which ones to take for you.
这消除了尝试寻找大量针对睡眠的补充剂以及确定正确剂量和适合您服用的补充剂的所有复杂性。
AGZ is, to my knowledge, the most comprehensive sleep supplement on the market.
据我所知，AGZ 是市场上最全面的睡眠补充剂。
I take it 30 to 60 minutes before sleep.
我在睡前 30 到 60 分钟服用。
It's delicious, by the way, and it dramatically increases both the quality and the depth of my sleep.
顺便说一句，它很美味，而且它极大地提高了我的睡眠质量和深度。
I know that both from my subjective experience of my sleep and because I track my sleep.
我知道这一点，既来自我对睡眠的主观体验，也因为我跟踪了我的睡眠。
I'm excited for everyone to try this new AGZ formulation and to enjoy the benefits of better sleep.
我很高兴每个人都能尝试这种新的 AGZ 配方并享受更好睡眠的好处。
AGZ is available in chocolate, chocolate mint, and mixed berry flavors, and as I mentioned before, they're all extremely delicious.
AGZ 有巧克力、巧克力薄荷和混合浆果口味，正如我之前提到的，它们都非常美味。
My favorite of the three has to be, I think, chocolate mint, but I really like them all.
我认为这三者中我最喜欢的是巧克力薄荷，但我真的很喜欢它们。
If you'd like to try AGZ, go to drinkagz.com/huberman to get a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AGZ，请访问 Drinkagz.com/huberman 以获得特别优惠。
Again, that's drinkagz.com/huberman.
再说一遍，这是 Drinkagz.com/huberman。
A couple more questions.
还有几个问题。
I can't help myself.
我无法自拔。
I know we talked about temperature earlier.
我知道我们之前讨论过温度。
I have to ask you about heat.
我得问你关于热度的事。
One of the reasons to deliberately expose oneself to heat is for things like growth hormone release, et cetera.
故意将自己暴露在高温下的原因之一是为了释放生长激素等。
We can talk about this, but how does one get better at heat adaptation?
我们可以讨论这个问题，但是如何才能更好地适应热呢？
Or at least what are you doing with the fighters to get them better at dealing with heat?
或者至少你正在对战士们做些什么来让他们更好地应对高温？
Barring hyperthermia and death, obviously you heat up the brain too much, people will-
除非体温过高和死亡，显然你会让大脑过度升温，人们会——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
...
...
have seizures and die.
癫痫发作并死亡。
You lose neurons.
你会失去神经元。
But what's the right way to acclimate heat?
但是适应热量的正确方法是什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So we normally start with about 15 minutes of exposure.
所以我们通常从大约 15 分钟的曝光开始。
Now, if someone's really lacking acclimation to heat, you can do that in three five-minute efforts.
现在，如果有人真的不适应高温，你可以通过三个五分钟的努力来做到这一点。
Do you know what I mean?
你知道我的意思吗？
And actually take some-
实际上采取一些-
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
This is hot sauna?
这是热桑拿吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, hot sauna.
是的，热桑拿。
Take time to step out.
花点时间走出去。
And it-
还有它——
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
200 degrees or something-
200度什么的-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Correct
正确
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
...
...
Fahrenheit.
华氏度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
200 Fahrenheit, yes.
200 华氏度，是的。
We try to work up to 30 to 40 minutes to 45 minutes in the sauna continuous.
我们尝试在桑拿房中连续工作 30 至 40 分钟至 45 分钟。
Now, we have to understand what's the advantage of heat acclimation for our athletes.
现在，我们必须了解热适应对我们的运动员有什么好处。
Ultimately, their ability to sweat and to lose body fluids is going to be advantageous to their weight cut process, their ability to make weight.
最终，他们出汗和流失体液的能力将有利于他们的减肥过程和增重能力。
It is a technique that some of these guys adopt.
这是其中一些人采用的一种技术。
So if you don't have high sweat rates, it means you're going to have to sit in the sauna for longer and longer and longer to get the same delta in sweat release.
因此，如果您的出汗率不高，则意味着您必须在桑拿房中坐的时间越来越长，才能获得相同的出汗量。
So the more acclimated you are, the more your body is thermogenically adapted, the more sweat glands you have.
因此，您越适应环境，您的身体就越能适应产热，您的汗腺就越多。
So, we start with 15 minutes, and then we just try to add on and add on across a time.
所以，我们从 15 分钟开始，然后我们尝试在一段时间内不断地增加。
And now for us, we kind of found about 14 sauna exposures starts to really then drive the adaptations that we're looking for.
现在对我们来说，我们发现大约 14 次桑拿浴开始真正推动我们正在寻找的适应。
So it's not a quick fix.
所以这不是一个快速解决方案。
A heat acclimation strategy has to happen long before fight week or long before the fights.
热适应策略必须在比赛周前或比赛前很久进行。
This is a process that has to begin eight to 10 weeks before the fight so that we can actually get that adaptation and that tolerance to the stressor, to the exposure of heat.
这个过程必须在比赛前八到十周开始，这样我们才能真正适应并耐受压力源和高温。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
This is interesting.
这很有趣。
Until today, when we were talking about this earlier and again now, I didn't realize, but it makes perfect sense now that I hear it, that heat adaptation is possible, that you basically can train the body to become better at cooling itself-
直到今天，当我们早些时候一次又一次地谈论这个问题时，我还没有意识到，但现在我听到它是完全有道理的，热适应是可能的，你基本上可以训练身体变得更好地自我冷却-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
...
...
which is what sweating is.
这就是出汗。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The body as an organism, as an organic system, it's hugely adaptable.
身体作为一个有机体，作为一个有机系统，它的适应性非常强。
It's hugely plastic.
它是巨大的塑料。
But I think the skill is understanding the whens, the whys, and the whereofs in terms of changing the overload, changing the stimulus to drive specific adaptation.
但我认为这项技能是理解改变超载、改变刺激以驱动特定适应的时间、原因和原因。
And philosophically, that's how we go about our work here.
从哲学上讲，这就是我们在这里开展工作的方式。
We talk about adaptation-led programming.
我们谈论以适应为主导的编程。
Now, adaptation-led programming fits into every single category, not just lifting weights or running track.
现在，以适应为主导的编程适合每个类别，而不仅仅是举重或跑步。
It fits into nutrition.
它适合营养。
It fits into sitting in the sauna.
它适合坐在桑拿房里。
It fits into being in a cold bath or not.
它适合是否洗冷水澡。
It fits into so many different things because we're driven by scientific insights, and that's how we really want to go about our business.
它适用于许多不同的事物，因为我们受到科学见解的驱动，这就是我们真正想要开展业务的方式。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
If someone wanted to experiment with heat adaptation or experiment with cold adaptation or change up their training regimen or diet and look at metabolic efficiency, do you think 12 weeks is a good period of time to really give something a thorough go and gain an understanding of how well or how poorly something works for oneself, or would you say eight is enough, or three?
如果有人想尝试热适应或冷适应，或者改变他们的训练方案或饮食并观察代谢效率，你认为 12 周是真正彻底尝试某件事并了解某件事对自己的效果有多好或有多差的好时期，或者你认为 8 周就足够了，还是 3 周就足够了？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For 99% of things that change within the body that physiologically adapt to a training stimulus or an overload stimulus, you're going to start to see either regression or progression, beneficial or detrimental effects within three months.
对于在生理上适应训练刺激或超负荷刺激的体内 99% 的变化，您将在三个月内开始看到退化或进展、有益或有害的影响。
Absolutely, I would say.
我想说，绝对是。
And I think, the individual interpretation always has to be considered.
我认为，始终必须考虑个人的解释。
And I think that's where it comes back to, to be a thinking man's athlete or be a thinking man's trainer, like someone that's going through exercise.
我认为这就是回归的意义，成为一个有思想的人的运动员或一个有思想的人的教练，就像一个正在锻炼的人一样。
You have to consciously understand where your body's at any moment in time.
您必须随时有意识地了解自己的身体在哪里。
You've got to be real with yourself.
你必须对自己诚实。
You create a journal, create a log of your training, create a log of your feelings, your subjective feedback of how you felt, your mood, your sleep.
你创建一本日记，创建你的训练日志，创建你的感受日志，你对你的感受、你的情绪、你的睡眠的主观反馈。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
Do your athletes do that?
你们的运动员这样做吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
We try to promote that because, again, that's part of this process.
我们试图推广这一点，因为这也是这个过程的一部分。
Maybe 12 weeks for you, but I might get the same responses in eight weeks.
对你来说可能需要 12 周，但我可能会在 8 周内得到相同的答复。
We could put 15 guys on the mat and give them the same workout, and there's going to be 15 different responses to that same workout, because the human organism is so complex and in nature that it's going to adapt differently.
我们可以让 15 个人坐在垫子上，对他们进行相同的锻炼，对于相同的锻炼会有 15 种不同的反应，因为人体有机体非常复杂，本质上它会以不同的方式适应。
Some people will tolerate it, some people are going to be challenged by it.
有些人会容忍它，有些人会受到它的挑战。
Some people have got a metabolic makeup that's going to promote it.
有些人的新陈代谢结构会促进这种情况。
Some people are metabolically challenged by it.
有些人的新陈代谢因此受到挑战。
There's just so many different things that we have to consider, and that's what we try to do here.
我们必须考虑很多不同的事情，这就是我们在这里尝试做的事情。
It's the cross we bear, is that we try to understand on an individual level how to optimize athletic performance.
这是我们承受的十字架，是我们试图在个人层面上理解如何优化运动表现。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
Duncan, when you speak, I learn so much.
邓肯，当你说话时，我学到了很多东西。
I'm going to take the protocols that I've heard about today.
我将采用我今天听说的协议。
I'm going to think about how I'm training and how I could train differently and better, how I'm eating, how I could eat differently and better for sake of performance and just in general.
我会考虑我如何训练，如何以不同的方式更好地训练，我如何饮食，如何为了表现和总体表现而以不同的方式更好地饮食。
Thank you so much for your time, your scientific expertise, the stuff you're doing in the practical realm.
非常感谢您的宝贵时间、您的科学专业知识以及您在实践领域所做的事情。
It's immense.
这是巨大的。
So, hopefully, we can do it again.
所以，希望我们能够再次做到这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes.
是的。
Thank you.
谢谢。
This has been a blast.
这真是太棒了。
I appreciate it.
我很感激。
And, yeah, keep doing what you're doing because I know there's a lot of people out there that love the platform.
是的，继续做你正在做的事情，因为我知道有很多人喜欢这个平台。
So, thanks for the invite.
所以，谢谢你的邀请。
It's been awesome.
太棒了。
Dr. Duncan French:
邓肯·法兰西博士：
Oh, thank you.
哦，谢谢。
Thanks so much.
非常感谢。
All right.
好的。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
"I didn't like what you said," Odin pauses, "about the future." This is the love story of real Hinge couple Odin and Edward, written and read by me, Curtis Garner.
“我不喜欢你所说的，”奥丁停顿了一下，“关于未来。”这是真实的铰链夫妇奥丁和爱德华的爱情故事，由我柯蒂斯·加纳撰写和阅读。
Listen to the free audiobook now.
立即收听免费有声读物。