Essentials: Diet & Nutrition for Mental Health | Dr. Chris Palmer
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials, where we revisit past episodes for the most potent and actionable science-based tools for mental health, physical health, and performance.
欢迎来到 Huberman Lab Essentials，在这里我们回顾过去的剧集，寻找针对心理健康、身体健康和表现的最有效、最可操作的基于科学的工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Chris Palmer.
现在我与克里斯·帕尔默博士进行了讨论。
Chris, Dr. Palmer, thank you for being here.
克里斯，帕尔默博士，谢谢你们来到这里。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Thank you, Andrew, for having me.
谢谢你，安德鲁，邀请我。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have a lot of questions for you, and I'm really excited about this topic because I think most people know what mental illness is, or they have some idea what that is.
我有很多问题要问你，我对这个话题感到非常兴奋，因为我认为大多数人都知道什么是精神疾病，或者他们知道那是什么。
Most people have some idea what nutrition is.
大多数人都知道什么是营养。
Fewer people certainly know how closely those things can interact.
当然，很少有人知道这些事物之间的相互作用有多密切。
I think everybody is familiar with the feeling of a food or the ingestion of a food making them feel good in the short term.
我想每个人都熟悉食物的感觉或摄入食物让他们在短期内感觉良好。
But I believe that very few people understand or are familiar with the fact that nutrition and our mental health interact in this very intimate, maybe even causal way.
但我相信很少有人理解或熟悉这样一个事实：营养和我们的心理健康以这种非常密切、甚至可能是因果关系的方式相互作用。
And that is something that occurs over long periods of time.
这是在很长一段时间内发生的事情。
Meaning what I ate yesterday, the day before, maybe even 10 years ago, could be impacting the way that my brain and body are making me feel now.
这意味着我昨天、前天、甚至十年前吃的东西可能会影响我的大脑和身体现在的感觉。
So if you would, I'd love for you to just tell us about a little bit of the history, in particular, your history with exploring the relationship between nutrition and mental health, and then we can dive into some of the more particulars of ketogenic diets versus other diets and some of the truly miraculous findings that you and others are coming up with based on real patients and real experiences of people who suffer and then find relief by altering their nutrition.
因此，如果您愿意，我希望您能告诉我们一些历史，特别是您探索营养与心理健康之间关系的历史，然后我们可以深入了解生酮饮食与其他饮食的一些更多细节，以及您和其他人根据真实患者和遭受痛苦的人的真实经历得出的一些真正神奇的发现，然后通过改变营养来找到缓解。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Sure.
当然。
This story really starts with my own personal story.
这个故事实际上是从我自己的个人故事开始的。
I don't need to go into great detail, but to set the stage, when I was a kid, I definitely had mental illness.
我不需要讲太多细节，但先说一下，当我还是个孩子的时候，我肯定患有精神疾病。
Started with OCD.
从强迫症开始。
I went on to have subsequent depression, suicidality, all sorts of things.
随后我出现了抑郁症、自杀倾向以及各种各样的症状。
But somehow or another, I pulled myself together and got through medical school, actually did quite well in medical school, and then was doing my internship and residency at Harvard.
但不知何故，我振作起来并完成了医学院的学业，实际上在医学院的表现相当好，然后在哈佛进行实习和住院医师实习。
And at that point in time, I was diagnosed with metabolic syndrome.
就在那时，我被诊断出患有代谢综合症。
So I had high blood pressure, horrible lipids, and prediabetes.
所以我患有高血压、可怕的血脂和糖尿病前期。
And I was doing everything right, supposedly.
据推测，我所做的一切都是正确的。
I was on a low-fat diet, and I was exercising regularly.
我实行低脂饮食，并且经常锻炼身体。
And year after year, my doctor kept telling me diet and exercise.
年复一年，我的医生不断告诉我饮食和锻炼。
I was doing everything he kept telling me to do.
我正在做他一直告诉我做的一切。
Everything was getting worse.
一切都变得更糟了。
My blood pressure kept going higher.
我的血压持续升高。
And at some point, he said, "You're going to have to go on medication for your prediabetes, something for your cholesterol, and something for your blood pressure." So three pills.
他说，到了某个时候，“你将不得不继续服用治疗前驱糖尿病的药物、治疗胆固醇的药物以及治疗血压的药物。”故三丸。
Basically, you're screwed.
基本上，你完蛋了。
It's your genes.
这是你的基因。
You're just going to have to bite the bullet and take meds.
你只能硬着头皮吃药。
As a physician, I knew what that meant.
作为一名医生，我知道这意味着什么。
I knew that I'm in my 20s.
我知道我已经20多岁了。
If I'm already on three meds for metabolic syndrome, I'm going to be screwed by the time I'm 40 or 50, and I'm probably going to be having heart attacks.
如果我已经在服用三种治疗代谢综合征的药物，那么到 40 岁或 50 岁的时候我就会陷入困境，而且我可能会心脏病发作。
I'd heard through the rumor mill that the Atkins diet could somehow help people improve their cholesterol and prediabetes.
我通过谣言听说阿特金斯饮食可以以某种方式帮助人们改善胆固醇和糖尿病前期。
I was highly skeptical, and I believed everything I was taught in medical school.
我非常怀疑，我相信我在医学院学到的一切。
Why would my professors lie to me?
为什么我的教授要对我撒谎？
That they knew what they were talking about.
他们知道自己在说什么。
Low-fat diet was the thing to do.
低脂饮食是要做的事情。
And the Atkins diet was clearly dangerous and reckless.
阿特金斯饮食法显然是危险且鲁莽的。
And I had been trying the medical dogma for years, and it wasn't working for me.
多年来我一直在尝试医学教条，但它对我不起作用。
And so for whatever reason, I decided this is going to be my last attempt at something different, and then I'll just bite the bullet and go on meds.
所以无论出于什么原因，我决定这将是我最后一次尝试不同的东西，然后我会硬着头皮继续吃药。
So I tried the Atkins diet.
所以我尝试了阿特金斯饮食法。
Within three months, my metabolic syndrome was completely gone.
三个月内，我的代谢综合症完全消失了。
I probably lost about 10 pounds through this process, but everything got normal.
通过这个过程我可能减掉了大约10磅，但一切都恢复正常了。
And when I went back to my doctor, he was shocked.
当我回到医生那里时，他很震惊。
The thing that was the most striking to me after doing the diet for three months was not the fact that my metabolic syndrome was gone.
节食三个月后，最让我震惊的并不是我的代谢综合症消失了。
That was my goal, and it was a seemingly miraculous achievement because I got rid of everything with one dietary change.
这就是我的目标，这似乎是一个奇迹般的成就，因为我通过一次饮食改变就摆脱了一切。
But the thing that I noticed was dramatic improvement in my mood, energy, concentration, and sleep.
但我注意到我的情绪、精力、注意力和睡眠都得到了显着改善。
For the first time in my life, I started waking up before my alarm went off and feeling rested.
这是我一生中第一次，在闹钟响之前我就醒了，并感到休息了。
That never happened to me before.
我以前从未发生过这种情况。
I was meticulous about planning when my alarm went off and how many times I could push the snooze button in order to be on time for wherever I needed to be, whether it was school or the hospital or whatever.
我仔细地计划了闹钟何时响起，以及我可以按下小睡按钮多少次，以便准时到达我需要去的任何地方，无论是学校还是医院还是其他什么地方。
Prior to the diet, I always felt like there are two types of people in the world.
在节食之前，我总觉得世界上有两种人。
There are these happy, peppy people who just are so positive, and they've got energy, and they have this saying, they like to work hard and play hard.
这些快乐、精力充沛的人非常积极，他们充满活力，他们有句话说，他们喜欢努力工作，努力玩耍。
But I never understood who the hell wants to play hard.
但我一直不明白谁到底想玩得努力。
Who's got energy for that?
谁有精力这么做？
Aren't you tired from working so hard?
你这么辛苦工作不累吗？
I assumed that they were just lucky and privileged.
我认为他们只是幸运和特权。
They either had good genetics or maybe they had good childhoods or good parents or something, something that I didn't have.
他们要么有良好的基因，要么有美好的童年，或者好的父母，或者其他一些我没有的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What was the journey forward into the work that you're doing now?
您现在所做的工作进展如何？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
So within a few years, I'm an attending physician.
几年之内，我就成为了一名主治医生。
I've got all these patients in my clinical practice with treatment-resistant mental illness.
在我的临床实践中，所有这些患者都患有难治性精神疾病。
I'm in a tertiary care hospital, so I almost never get somebody off the street with their first episode of depression.
我在一家三级护理医院，所以我几乎从来没有让第一次抑郁症发作的人离开街道。
Out of the gate, as part of my career, I get treatment-resistant mental disorders.
作为我职业生涯的一部分，我一开始就患有难治性精神障碍。
So I get people who've already been to six-plus psychiatrists, therapists.
所以我找的人已经看过六位以上的精神科医生、治疗师。
They've usually tried dozens of different medications.
他们通常尝试了数十种不同的药物。
They've been in decades of psychotherapy.
他们已经接受了几十年的心理治疗。
They've often had ECT and other things, and nothing's working And I'm thinking, well, we're kind of out of options for these other people, and this diet is having this really powerful antidepressant effect.
他们经常接受电休克疗法和其他治疗，但没有任何效果。我在想，好吧，我们对这些其他人来说已经别无选择，而这种饮食确实具有强大的抗抑郁作用。
I think I'm going to try it and just see if any of my patients are game to try it to see if it might help them.
我想我会尝试一下，看看我的病人是否愿意尝试一下，看看是否对他们有帮助。
Sure enough, it did.
果然，确实如此。
Didn't help everyone, and not everybody was interested and/or able to do it, but some of the ones who were able to do it ended up having a remarkable and powerful antidepressant effect.
并没有帮助每个人，也不是每个人都有兴趣和/或能够做到这一点，但一些能够做到这一点的人最终产生了显着而强大的抗抑郁效果。
One woman actually became hypomanic within a month, and she had been depressed pretty much nonstop for over five years, chronically depressed, suicidal, in and out of hospitals, and I saw her become hypomanic, and I'm thinking, wow, this really is a powerful antidepressant effect.
一个女人实际上在一个月内变得轻躁狂，她已经抑郁了五年多，长期抑郁，有自杀倾向，进出医院，我看到她变得轻躁狂，我在想，哇，这确实是一种强大的抗抑郁作用。
This is amazing.
这太棒了。
This is like a medication, but better because it actually is working for her.
这就像一种药物，但更好，因为它确实对她有效。
At that point, we didn't have many clinical trials of the safety or efficacy of the Atkins diet for even weight loss or diabetes, let alone any mental disorders.
那时，我们还没有进行很多关于阿特金斯饮食的安全性或有效性的临床试验，甚至没有对减肥或糖尿病进行临床试验，更不用说任何精神障碍了。
And so I really actually felt like I'm on the fringe here, and this is not going to be met with praise by anyone.
所以我真的感觉自己处于边缘，不会得到任何人的赞扬。
So I'm just going to lay low.
所以我要保持低调。
I'm going to offer it to patients.
我要把它提供给病人。
And I went along that way up until 2016.
我就这样一直走下去，直到 2016 年。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Eight Sleep.
我想稍微休息一下，并向我们的赞助商“八睡”表示感谢。
Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity.
August Sleep 生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。
One of the best ways to ensure you get a great night's sleep is to make sure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct.
确保您睡个好觉的最佳方法之一是确保睡眠环境的温度正确。
And that's because in order to fall asleep and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees.
这是因为为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的体温实际上必须下降约一到三度。
And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees.
为了醒来时感觉神清气爽、精力充沛，您的体温实际上必须升高约一到三度。
Eight Sleep automatically regulates the temperature of your bed throughout the night according to your unique needs.
八睡眠会根据您的独特需求自动调节整个晚上的床温。
I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for nearly five years now, and it has completely transformed and improved the quality of my sleep.
我已经睡在八睡眠床垫罩上近五年了，它彻底改变并改善了我的睡眠质量。
The latest Eight Sleep model is the Pod 5.
最新的八睡眠型号是 Pod 5。
This is what I'm now sleeping on, and I absolutely love it.
这就是我现在睡觉的地方，我非常喜欢它。
It has so many incredible features.
它有很多令人难以置信的功能。
For instance, the Pod 5 has a feature called Autopilot, which is an AI engine that learns your sleep patterns and then adjusts the temperature of your sleeping environment across different sleep stages.
例如，Pod 5有一个名为Autopilot的功能，这是一个人工智能引擎，可以学习你的睡眠模式，然后在不同的睡眠阶段调整你的睡眠环境温度。
It'll even elevate your head if you're snoring, and it makes other shifts to optimize your sleep.
如果您打鼾，它甚至会抬高您的头部，并进行其他转换以优化您的睡眠。
If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, go to eightsleep.com/huberman to get up to $350 off the new Pod 5.
如果您想尝试八睡眠，请访问八睡眠.com/huberman，新款 Pod 5 最高可享受 350 美元优惠。
Eight Sleep ships to many countries worldwide, including Mexico and the UAE.
八号睡眠船运往世界各地的许多国家，包括墨西哥和阿联酋。
Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $350.
同样，访问八睡眠.com/huberman 最多可节省 350 美元。
So low carbohydrate diet, certainly low sugar.
所以低碳水化合物饮食，肯定是低糖。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm assuming you're not a nutritionist, so how did you prescribe a nutrition plan for your patients?
我假设您不是营养师，那么您是如何为患者制定营养计划的呢？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
The first few patients, it was try this Atkins diet.
最初的几个病人，正是尝试了这种阿特金斯饮食法。
I want to see ketosis.
我想看看酮症。
So I was strongly recommending that patients achieve urinary ketosis.
所以我强烈建议患者实现尿酮症。
And the interesting thing is I noticed a pattern that when they were trying the diet and not getting ketones, they often did not get a clinical benefit.
有趣的是，我注意到一种模式，当他们尝试饮食而不摄入酮时，他们通常没有获得临床益处。
It was once they got into ketosis that I began to notice the clinical benefit.
当他们进入酮症时，我开始注意到临床益处。
The thing that completely upended everything that I knew as a psychiatrist, though, was when I helped a patient in 2016, 33-year-old man with schizoaffective disorder.
然而，完全颠覆了我作为一名精神科医生所知道的一切的是，2016 年我帮助了一位患有分裂情感障碍的 33 岁患者。
He had been my patient for eight years now.
他已经是我的病人八年了。
He had daily auditory hallucinations.
他每天都会出现幻听。
He had paranoid delusions.
他有偏执妄想。
He could not go out in public without being terrified.
他每次出门都会感到害怕。
This man was tormented by his illness.
这个人饱受病痛的折磨。
It ruined his life.
这毁了他的生活。
He had already tried 17 different medications, and none of them stopped his symptoms.
他已经尝试了 17 种不同的药物，但没有一种能缓解他的症状。
He weighs 340 pounds, and for whatever reason, he gets it in his head, "I'm never going to get a girlfriend if I don't lose some weight." He also recognizes, "I'm never going to get a girlfriend because I'm a loser.
他体重 340 磅，不管出于什么原因，他脑子里一直在想：“如果我不减肥，我永远找不到女朋友。”他还承认，“我永远不会找到女朋友，因为我是一个失败者。
I'm schizophrenic.
我是精神分裂症患者。
I live with my father.
我和父亲住在一起。
I have nothing going for me." For a variety of reasons, we ended up deciding to try the ketogenic diet.
我没有什么适合我的。”由于种种原因，我们最终决定尝试生酮饮食。
He decides to give it a try.
他决定尝试一下。
Within two weeks, not only does he start losing weight, but I begin to notice this dramatic antidepressant effect.
两周之内，他不仅开始减肥，而且我开始注意到这种戏剧性的抗抑郁效果。
He's making better eye contact.
他的目光接触变得更好了。
He's smiling more.
他笑得更开心了
He's talking a lot more.
他话很多。
I'm thinking, like, "What's gotten into you?
我在想，“你怎么了？
You're coming to life.
你即将复活。
I've never heard you talk this much.
我从来没有听你说过这么多话。
I've never seen you so excited or present or alive." And I haven't changed his meds at all.
我从来没有见过你如此兴奋、如此活跃、如此活跃。”我根本没有改变他的药物。
The thing that upended everything that I knew as a psychiatrist was six to eight weeks in, he spontaneously starts reporting, "You know those voices that I hear all the time?
六到八周后，这件事颠覆了我作为一名精神科医生的认知，他自发地开始报告：“你知道我经常听到的那些声音吗？
They're going away." And he says, "You know how I always thought that there were all these families who were controlling my thoughts and out to get me, and they had targeted me?" And I'm thinking, oh, yeah, we've been talking about that for eight years.
他们要走了。”他说：“你知道我一直认为所有这些家庭都在控制我的思想并出手抓捕我，他们瞄准了我吗？”我在想，哦，是的，我们已经讨论这个问题八年了。
We could talk about that again.
我们可以再讨论一下这个问题。
He says, "Now that I think about it, I don't think that's true.
他说：“现在我想起来，我认为那不是真的。
And now that I say it, it sounds kind of crazy.
现在我这么说，听起来有点疯狂。
It probably never was.
可能从来都不是。
I've probably had schizophrenia all along like everybody's been trying to tell me, and I think it's going away." He's now lost 160 pounds and kept it off to this day.
我可能一直患有精神分裂症，就像每个人都试图告诉我的那样，我认为它会消失。”现在他已经减掉了 160 磅，并且一直保持到今天。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
He was able to do things he had not been able to do since the time of his diagnosis.
他能够做自诊断以来他无法做的事情。
He was able to complete a certificate program.
他能够完成证书课程。
He was able to go out in public and not be paranoid.
他能够在公共场合外出而不会偏执。
He performed improv in front of a live audience.
他在现场观众面前即兴表演。
At one point, he was able to move out of his father's home and live independently.
有一次，他能够搬出父亲的家，独立生活。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Did he stay on any kind of antipsychotic or other medication?
他是否继续服用任何抗精神病药物或其他药物？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
We have slowly but surely tried to taper him off his meds.
我们缓慢但坚定地尝试逐渐减少他的药物用量。
He has been on meds for decades.
他已经服药数十年了。
He started medications when he was a young child.
当他还是个小孩子的时候，他就开始接受药物治疗。
His brain is developed in response to all sorts of psychiatric medications, and it has not been easy to try to get him off.
他的大脑是对各种精神药物做出反应的，想要让他摆脱这种药物并不容易。
And I just want to say for any listeners, getting off your meds is very difficult and dangerous, and you need to do it with supervision with a mental health professional or a prescriber
我只想对所有听众说，戒掉药物是非常困难和危险的，你需要在心理健康专业人士或处方医生的监督下进行
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
To stay in ketosis, what sort of blood levels of ketones do you like to see in your patients?
为了保持酮症，您希望患者的血液酮水平达到什么水平？
What is the range that you think most people could aspire to?
您认为大多数人能够追求的范围是多少？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
So it really depends on the patient and what I'm treating, quite honestly.
所以说实话，这实际上取决于患者和我正在治疗的内容。
And I don't think every patient needs the ketogenic diet.
我不认为每个患者都需要生酮饮食。
For some patients, simply getting rid of junk food can make a huge difference in a mood disorder, for instance.
例如，对于一些患者来说，仅仅戒掉垃圾食品就能对情绪障碍产生巨大的影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So junk food meaning highly processed food, food that could last on the shelf a very long time.
因此，垃圾食品是指经过高度加工的食品，可以在货架上保存很长时间的食品。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Highly processed foods that are usually high in both sugar, carbohydrate, and carbs and fats.
高度加工食品通常富含糖、碳水化合物、碳水化合物和脂肪。
Those seem to be the worst foods.
这些似乎是最糟糕的食物。
That combination, high sugar, high fat, seems to be the worst combination for metabolic health.
高糖、高脂肪的组合似乎是对代谢健康最糟糕的组合。
And lo and behold, we've got emerging data that strongly suggests it's also bad for mental health.
你瞧，我们得到的新数据强烈表明，这对心理健康也有害。
So to step back from that.
因此，退一步来说。
So for some patients, I might just want to decrease glucose and insulin levels, and I can do that by getting rid of sweets.
因此，对于某些患者来说，我可能只想降低血糖和胰岛素水平，我可以通过戒掉甜食来做到这一点。
For other patients, like patients with schizoaffective disorder or schizophrenia or bipolar disorder, especially if it's chronic, if I'm using it as a brain treatment, then I do want a ketogenic diet, and I usually want reasonably high levels of blood ketones.
对于其他患者，例如患有精神分裂症或精神分裂症或双相情感障碍的患者，尤其是慢性患者，如果我将其用作大脑治疗，那么我确实需要生酮饮食，并且通常需要相当高的血酮水平。
For depression, I want to see at least greater than probably 0.8 millimole.
对于抑郁症，我希望看到至少大于 0.8 毫摩尔。
For psychotic disorders and bipolar disorder, I usually want to see levels greater than 1.5.
对于精神障碍和双相情感障碍，我通常希望看到大于 1.5 的水平。
That's what I'm shooting for, if at all possible.
如果可能的话，这就是我拍摄的目的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think that for a lot of listeners and people out there who are familiar with how changing your diet or changing your exercise can positively impact sleep and weight and all these things, and it cascades into feeling better, that makes perfect sense.
我认为，对于很多听众和熟悉改变饮食或改变锻炼方式如何对睡眠和体重以及所有这些因素产生积极影响的人来说，这会带来更好的感觉，这是完全有道理的。
But for a lot of the world still, the idea that changing or using nutrition as a dissection tool or as a treatment tool to understand and treat mental illness is still a kind of heretical idea.
但对于世界上许多人来说，改变或使用营养作为解剖工具或治疗工具来理解和治疗精神疾病的想法仍然是一种异端思想。
That to them, it kind of falls in the, okay, well, that's like a woo science or something like that.
对他们来说，这有点像求爱科学或类似的东西。
They immediately think, "Didn't Atkins die of a heart attack?" I hear that a lot, which I do think is throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but it's an interesting thing nonetheless.
他们立即想：“阿特金斯不是死于心脏病吗？”我经常听到这样的说法，我确实认为这是把婴儿和洗澡水一起倒掉，但这仍然是一件有趣的事情。
And then I think that the majority of people sit in the middle and just want to see science and medicine come up with treatments that work.
然后我认为大多数人都坐在中间，只是想看到科学和医学提出有效的治疗方法。
And I have to say, I'm very relieved to hear what you said earlier, which was you never said that people should come off their medication and just go on a ketogenic diet and everything will be cured.
我不得不说，听到你之前所说的话，我感到非常欣慰，你从来没有说过人们应该停止用药，只进行生酮饮食，一切都会治愈。
You're certainly not saying that.
你当然不是这么说的。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And rather you're saying, if I understand correctly, that nutrition needs to be considered one of the major tools in the landscape of effective tools, and that it can be very effective.
相反，你是说，如果我理解正确的话，营养需要被视为有效工具领域中的主要工具之一，而且它可以非常有效。
Let's talk about epilepsy and how the ketogenic diet is not just used for epilepsy, but is one of the oldest, if not the oldest, examples of the use of nutrition to treat a condition of the nervous system that can be incredibly debilitating, even deadly.
让我们来谈谈癫痫症，以及生酮饮食如何不仅用于治疗癫痫症，而且是利用营养来治疗神经系统疾病的最古老（如果不是最古老的）例子之一，这种疾病可能会令人难以置信地衰弱，甚至致命。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Yeah.
是的。
The reality is that this literature and this clinical history and all of the research we have was the godsend that I needed to do the work that I'm doing.
现实是，这些文献、这些临床病史以及我们所做的所有研究都是天赐之物，我需要做我正在做的工作。
Otherwise, I would have been discredited on day one.
否则，我第一天就会名誉扫地。
The ketogenic diet, unbeknownst to most people, was actually developed 100 years ago, 1921, by a physician for one and only one purpose, to treat epilepsy.
大多数人不知道的生酮饮食实际上是 100 年前（即 1921 年）由一位医生开发的，其目的只有一个：治疗癫痫。
It wasn't developed as a weight loss diet.
它并不是作为减肥饮食而开发的。
It wasn't developed as the diet that all human beings should follow.
它并不是作为所有人都应该遵循的饮食而开发的。
And the reason it was developed is because of this long-standing observation, since the time of Hippocrates, that fasting can stop seizures.
它之所以被开发出来，是因为自希波克拉底时代以来的长期观察，禁食可以阻止癫痫发作。
Most people think going without food is bad, and they equate it with starvation.
大多数人认为没有食物是不好的，他们将其等同于饥饿。
But in fact, when we go without food, it causes tremendous shifts in metabolism, both brain and body metabolism.
但事实上，当我们不吃东西时，它会导致新陈代谢（大脑和身体新陈代谢）发生巨大变化。
And it puts the body into a mode of autophagy and conservation of resources and all sorts of things that are beneficial to human health.
它使人体进入自噬模式，节约资源和各种有益于人体健康的事情。
And this is why fasting has been used as a therapeutic intervention in almost every culture and almost every religion for millennia.
这就是为什么几千年来禁食在几乎所有文化和几乎所有宗教中都被用作治疗干预措施。
But for the most part, that was all thought to be religious folklore.
但在大多数情况下，这都被认为是宗教民间传说。
In 1921, one physician used intermittent fasting on a child with seizures and found that, oh, lo and behold, this religious folklore stuff has something to it.
1921 年，一位医生对一名癫痫发作的儿童进行了间歇性禁食，他发现，哦，你瞧，这种宗教民间传说确实有其道理。
It actually worked.
它确实有效。
The problem with fasting is that you can only fast for so long before you starve to death, and that's not a very effective treatment.
禁食的问题在于，你只能禁食一段时间，然后才会饿死，而这并不是一种非常有效的治疗方法。
As soon as people start eating a normal diet again, their seizures usually come right back, oftentimes with a vengeance.
一旦人们再次开始正常饮食，他们的癫痫发作通常会立即复发，而且往往会很严重。
And so it can be a good short-term intervention.
因此，这可能是一个很好的短期干预措施。
The fasting can take a few days because it can take a few days to get ketosis, and then you can get some relief from chronic seizures.
禁食可能需要几天的时间，因为可能需要几天的时间才能出现酮症，然后您可以从慢性癫痫发作中得到一些缓解。
But it's not a good long-term treatment because, again, people will starve to death.
但这并不是一个好的长期治疗方法，因为人们会再次饿死。
As soon as they start eating, seizures come back.
一旦他们开始进食，癫痫就会再次发作。
So it was actually Dr. Russell Wilder at the Mayo Clinic who developed the ketogenic diet with one and only one purpose.
所以实际上是梅奥诊所的拉塞尔·怀尔德博士开发了生酮饮食，其目的只有一个。
He wanted to see, can we mimic the fasting state using this special diet to see if it might stop seizures long term?
他想看看，我们能否使用这种特殊饮食来模仿禁食状态，看看是否可以长期阻止癫痫发作？
And lo and behold, it worked.
你瞧，它成功了。
Early results were extraordinarily positive.
早期结果非常积极。
50% of patients who used the ketogenic diet became seizure-free, and another 35% had a 50% or greater reduction in their seizure frequency.
使用生酮饮食的患者中有 50% 不再出现癫痫发作，另外 35% 的患者癫痫发作频率减少了 50% 或更多。
So about 85% efficacy rate.
所以有效率85%左右。
By the 1950s, pharmaceuticals were coming out, and we had many more anticonvulsant treatments.
到了 20 世纪 50 年代，药物问世，我们有了更多的抗惊厥治疗方法。
And there's no question they work for a lot of people.
毫无疑问，它们对很多人都有效。
That's great.
那太棒了。
And taking a pill is so much easier than doing this diet.
吃药比节食要容易得多。
But lo and behold, even to this day, people with epilepsy, about 30% don't respond to the current treatments that we have available.
但你瞧，即使到今天，仍有约 30% 的癫痫患者对我们现有的治疗方法没有反应。
30% will have treatment-resistant epilepsy, which means they continue to have seizures, no matter how many anticonvulsants they're taking, even if they've had brain surgery.
30% 的人患有难治性癫痫，这意味着无论他们服用多少抗惊厥药物，即使他们已经接受过脑部手术，他们仍然会癫痫发作。
It just doesn't stop their seizures.
它只是不能阻止他们的癫痫发作。
And so in the 1970s, the ketogenic diet was resurrected at Johns Hopkins for these treatment-resistant cases.
因此，在 20 世纪 70 年代，约翰·霍普金斯大学针对这些难治性病例重新启用生酮饮食。
And lo and behold, it works.
你瞧，它确实有效。
Not for all of them, but it works.
并不适合所有人，但它确实有效。
And about one-third become seizure-free.
大约三分之一的人不再癫痫发作。
And these are people who've tried everything and nothing's working.
这些人已经尝试了一切，但毫无效果。
So one-third become seizure-free.
因此，三分之一的人不再癫痫发作。
Another third get a clinical benefit, meaning a 50% or greater reduction in their seizure frequency.
另外三分之一获得了临床益处，这意味着癫痫发作频率减少了 50% 或更多。
And the other third, it doesn't seem to work.
另外三分之一，似乎不起作用。
And so the reality, the godsend for me, is that we have decades of neuroscience research on the ketogenic diet and what it is doing to the brain.
因此，现实对我来说是天赐之物，我们对生酮饮食及其对大脑的影响进行了数十年的神经科学研究。
We know that the ketogenic diet is influencing neurotransmitter levels, in particular glutamate, GABA, adenosine.
我们知道生酮饮食会影响神经递质水平，特别是谷氨酸、GABA、腺苷。
It changes calcium channel regulation and calcium levels, which is really important in the function of cells.
它改变钙通道调节和钙水平，这对细胞功能非常重要。
It changes gene expression.
它改变基因表达。
It reduces brain inflammation.
它可以减少大脑炎症。
It changes the gut microbiome, and gut microbiome's a huge topic right now, and there are some researchers who argue that is the primary benefit of the ketogenic diet.
它改变了肠道微生物组，而肠道微生物组现在是一个巨大的话题，一些研究人员认为这是生酮饮食的主要好处。
It's changing the gut microbiome in beneficial ways.
它正在以有益的方式改变肠道微生物组。
So it's doing a lot of things.
所以它做了很多事情。
It obviously improves insulin resistance.
明显改善胰岛素抵抗。
It lowers glucose levels, lowers insulin levels, which improves insulin signaling.
它可以降低血糖水平，降低胰岛素水平，从而改善胰岛素信号传导。
The key for my research that I've outlined, the real magic, is that this diet stimulates two processes that relate to mitochondria.
我所概述的研究的关键，真正的魔力，是这种饮食刺激了与线粒体相关的两个过程。
It stimulates a process called mitophagy, which is getting rid of old and defective mitochondria and replacing them with new ones.
它刺激一种称为线粒体自噬的过程，即去除旧的和有缺陷的线粒体并用新的线粒体取代它们。
And it also stimulates a process called mitochondrial biogenesis, which means that after people have done the ketogenic diet for a while, months or years, many of their cells in their bodies and brains will have more mitochondria, and those mitochondria will be healthier.
它还刺激了一种叫做线粒体生物发生的过程，这意味着人们进行生酮饮食一段时间、几个月或几年后，他们身体和大脑中的许多细胞都会有更多的线粒体，而这些线粒体也会更健康。
And I believe that is the reason the ketogenic diet is such a powerful treatment, not only for epilepsy, but also for people with chronic mental disorders.
我相信这就是生酮饮食如此有效的治疗方法的原因，不仅可以治疗癫痫，还可以治疗慢性精神障碍患者。
If you're looking for randomized controlled trials documenting efficacy in large numbers of patients with these disorders, we don't have them.
如果您正在寻找记录对大量患有这些疾病的患者的疗效的随机对照试验，我们没有。
They're underway now, but we don't have them yet.
他们现在正在进行中，但我们还没有。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, BetterHelp.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 BetterHelp。
BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online.
BetterHelp 提供由持证治疗师完全在线进行的专业治疗。
I've been doing therapy for a long time.
我已经做了很长时间的治疗。
And while it's not always easy, every time I do a therapy session, I come away feeling better and knowing that the time was well spent.
虽然这并不总是那么容易，但每次我进行治疗时，我都会感觉更好，并且知道时间花得很值。
And that's because whenever I finish a therapy session, I come away with a valuable insight or new perspective on something I'm working through, whether that's with work, with relationships in my personal life, or with my relationship to myself.
这是因为每当我完成治疗课程时，我都会对我正在经历的事情产生宝贵的见解或新的视角，无论是工作、个人生活中的关系还是我与自己的关系。
I've just consistently found that there's so much benefit that comes through effective therapy.
我一直发现有效的治疗可以带来很多好处。
With BetterHelp, they make it extremely easy to find an expert therapist who can help provide the benefits that come through effective therapy.
通过 BetterHelp，他们可以非常轻松地找到可以帮助提供有效治疗带来的好处的专家治疗师。
And the data say it works.
数据表明它有效。
BetterHelp has an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for its live sessions based on over 1.7 million client reviews.
根据超过 170 万条客户评论，BetterHelp 的现场会议平均评分为 4.9 分（满分 5 分）。
If you would like to try BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month.
如果您想尝试 BetterHelp，请访问 betterhelp.com/huberman，第一个月可享受 10% 的折扣。
Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman.
再说一次，这是 betterhelp.com/huberman。
Maybe we could just talk about mitochondria for a moment and then talk about these two major effects.
也许我们可以先讨论一下线粒体，然后再讨论这两个主要影响。
What are some of the other things that mitochondria are important for in neurons and maybe other cells of the brain?
线粒体对于神经元甚至大脑的其他细胞还有哪些重要作用？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
If you think of the cell as a computer, a lot of people think of mitochondria as the power cord to that computer because they're providing the power, and they are, in fact, the power cord to that computer.
如果您将细胞视为一台计算机，很多人会将线粒体视为该计算机的电源线，因为它们提供电力，而事实上，它们就是该计算机的电源线。
But actually, their real function is the motherboard of that computer.
但实际上，它们的真正功能是该计算机的主板。
So mitochondria are directing and allocating resources throughout a cell.
因此线粒体正在整个细胞中指导和分配资源。
That is their primary function, and then they happen to be powerhouses as well.
这是它们的主要功能，而且它们也恰好是强者。
To give some clear examples, mitochondria play a direct role in the production and release and regulation of some really key neurotransmitters, including serotonin, dopamine, glutamate, acetylcholine.
举一些明确的例子，线粒体在一些真正关键的神经递质的产生、释放和调节中发挥着直接作用，包括血清素、多巴胺、谷氨酸、乙酰胆碱。
Those are pretty powerful neurotransmitters.
这些是非常强大的神经递质。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I would consider those the, I know you listed more than three, but the sort of primary colors of neurotransmission.
我会考虑这些，我知道你列出了不止三种，但都是神经传递的原色。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Any one of those in excess or deficiency is going to have profound negative effects on a nervous system.
其中任何一种过量或不足都会对神经系统产生深远的负面影响。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Mitochondria are providing both some of the building blocks, if you will, for some of those molecules.
如果你愿意的话，线粒体为其中一些分子提供了一些构建模块。
They're part of the Krebs citric acid cycle.
它们是克雷布斯柠檬酸循环的一部分。
Some of the intermediate products actually go into making those neurotransmitters.
一些中间产品实际上用于制造这些神经递质。
Much more importantly, mitochondria provide the energy for the production of those neurotransmitters.
更重要的是，线粒体为这些神经递质的产生提供能量。
And fascinatingly, mitochondria are directly related to the release of neurotransmitters.
令人着迷的是，线粒体与神经递质的释放直接相关。
ATP alone is not enough.
仅 ATP 是不够的。
There have been some research studies that have actually found that mitochondria move along the membrane of the synapse to release batches of vesicles of neurotransmitters, and that if the mitochondria are removed from the synapse and researchers flood that cell with ATP, neurotransmitters usually are not getting released.
一些研究实际上发现，线粒体沿着突触膜移动，释放出一批批神经递质囊泡，如果将线粒体从突触中移除，并且研究人员向该细胞注入 ATP，神经递质通常不会被释放。
Mitochondria are doing other things.
线粒体正在做其他事情。
We don't entirely even understand what all they're doing or how they're doing it, but they're doing other things than just providing the power.
我们甚至不完全了解他们在做什么或他们是如何做的，但他们正在做其他事情而不仅仅是提供电力。
Mitochondria at least play a role in all of the aspects of the human stress response.
线粒体至少在人类应激反应的所有方面都发挥着作用。
So when humans are stressed, either physically or psychologically, there are several things that happen: increased cortisol, increased adrenaline, noradrenaline, inflammation, and gene expression, in particular in the hippocampus, occur with the stress response.
因此，当人类在身体或心理上受到压力时，会发生一些事情：皮质醇增加、肾上腺素、去甲肾上腺素增加、炎症和基因表达，特别是在海马体中，与压力反应一起发生。
And one group of researchers actually genetically modified mitochondria in four different ways and found that all those four buckets of stress response were impacted in one way or another, implying that mitochondria are somehow playing a role in those.
一组研究人员实际上以四种不同的方式对线粒体进行了基因改造，并发现所有这四种压力反应都受到了这样或那样的影响，这意味着线粒体在某种程度上发挥了作用。
In terms of their role in cortisol, we know that mitochondria actually have the enzyme required for the synthesis of steroid hormones.
就其在皮质醇中的作用而言，我们知道线粒体实际上具有合成类固醇激素所需的酶。
So that includes cortisol, estrogen, testosterone, and progesterone.
其中包括皮质醇、雌激素、睾酮和黄体酮。
Some names that maybe everybody's heard of.
一些名字也许每个人都听说过。
So that means that if mitochondria are in short supply or dysfunctional, the production of those hormones may become dysregulated.
因此，这意味着如果线粒体供应短缺或功能失调，这些激素的产生可能会失调。
Mitochondria play a direct role in inflammation, and they turn the inflammatory system both on, or they at least play a role in turning the inflammatory system both on and off.
线粒体在炎症中发挥直接作用，它们可以打开炎症系统，或者至少在打开和关闭炎症系统中发挥作用。
One paper in Cell actually identified mitochondria as the key regulator in turning certain inflammatory cells off, and that when you inhibit mitochondrial function, those cells don't turn off, that mitochondrial levels of reactive oxygen species are a key signaling process to turn the inflammatory cell process off.
《细胞》杂志上的一篇论文实际上确定线粒体是关闭某些炎症细胞的关键调节因子，当抑制线粒体功能时，这些细胞不会关闭，线粒体活性氧水平是关闭炎症细胞过程的关键信号传导过程。
Another study found that macrophages, so macrophages are an important immune cell that play a role in healing, so if you cut yourself, your body will send inflammation that way and send immune cells that way to try to heal your skin.
另一项研究发现巨噬细胞，所以巨噬细胞是一种重要的免疫细胞，在愈合中发挥作用，所以如果你割伤了自己，你的身体会以这种方式发送炎症，并以这种方式发送免疫细胞来尝试治愈你的皮肤。
And macrophages play an important role in that healing.
巨噬细胞在愈合过程中发挥着重要作用。
One group of researchers tried to figure out, how do macrophages know to switch between the different phases of wound healing?
一组研究人员试图弄清楚，巨噬细胞如何知道在伤口愈合的不同阶段之间进行切换？
Because the macrophages do different things in the different phases of wound healing.
因为巨噬细胞在伤口愈合的不同阶段会做不同的事情。
And the conclusion of all of their research was that it's mitochondria.
他们所有研究的结论是线粒体。
Mitochondria are sending the essential signals that change the state of the macrophages to induce these different phases of wound healing.
线粒体正在发送改变巨噬细胞状态的重要信号，以诱导伤口愈合的不同阶段。
So I've just talked about neurotransmitters, hormones, epigenetic expression, inflammation.
我刚才谈到了神经递质、激素、表观遗传表达、炎症。
For anybody familiar with the mental health field, they know these are some of the key variables that researchers have been struggling with for decades, trying to figure out how do these fit together.
对于任何熟悉心理健康领域的人来说，他们都知道这些是研究人员几十年来一直在努力解决的一些关键变量，试图弄清楚它们如何结合在一起。
We know that all of those buckets can be disrupted in people with mental disorders.
我们知道，精神障碍患者的所有这些能力都可能被打乱。
And our field has struggled to understand, but how do they fit together?
我们的领域一直很难理解，但它们如何结合在一起？
How can we make sense of this disruption?
我们如何理解这种破坏？
I believe once you understand the science of mitochondria, you can actually connect all of the dots of the mental illness puzzle.
我相信，一旦您了解了线粒体科学，您实际上就可以将精神疾病难题的所有点联系起来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What I'm hearing is that mitochondria, in addition to being important sources of energy production and output in cells, which of course they are, probably have other roles and that maybe someday what we call mitochondria will actually be two or three different little subcellular organelle.
我听到的是，线粒体除了是细胞中能量产生和输出的重要来源（当然它们确实是）之外，可能还有其他作用，也许有一天我们所说的线粒体实际上将是两个或三个不同的小亚细胞器。
In the landscape of science education, oftentimes people think, okay, energy production, there'll be a picture or a cartoon of mitochondria flexing its muscles.
在科学教育领域，人们常常认为，好吧，能量生产，会有一张线粒体展示肌肉的图片或漫画。
People go, okay, energy, mitochondria, mighty mitochondria, and then they'll think, oh, they're just sort of like a dumb jock portion of the cell.
人们会想，好吧，能量，线粒体，强大的线粒体，然后他们会想，哦，它们有点像细胞中愚蠢的运动员部分。
Right?
正确的？
They're not doing anything sophisticated.
他们没有做任何复杂的事情。
And everything you listed off is that they are doing many sophisticated, intricate things within cells.
你列出的一切都是它们在细胞内做许多复杂的事情。
So now that everyone is well aware that mitochondria are doing a large number of very important things in a very regulated way, let's talk about mitophagy, which I have to presume is the intentional or not gobbling up of mitochondria, presumably to replace them with newer, healthier mitochondria.
既然现在每个人都清楚线粒体正在以一种非常受监管的方式做大量非常重要的事情，那么让我们谈谈线粒体自噬，我必须推测这是有意或无意地吞噬线粒体，大概是用更新、更健康的线粒体取代它们。
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
It is.
是的。
So in many ways, mitophagy is a subset of autophagy, but it's got its own name because it is specific to mitochondria.
因此，从很多方面来说，线粒体自噬是自噬的一个子集，但它有自己的名字，因为它是线粒体特有的。
There do appear to be some unique regulators of mitophagy compared to autophagy more broadly.
与更广泛的自噬相比，线粒体自噬似乎确实存在一些独特的调节因子。
Mitochondria actually are playing a role in autophagy itself.
线粒体实际上在自噬本身中发挥着作用。
And this makes sense because so the global picture of autophagy is stimulated by fasting states or fasting mimicking states.
这是有道理的，因为自噬的整体情况是由禁食状态或模仿禁食状态刺激的。
So when your body senses that you don't have enough food, it actually hunkers down and starts to recycle dead old parts in this kind of carefully orchestrated way, and it takes them to lysosomes, they get degraded, and then those degradation products get used for either energy or to build new things.
因此，当你的身体感觉到你没有足够的食物时，它实际上会蹲下并开始以这种精心策划的方式回收死亡的旧部分，并将它们带到溶酶体，它们被降解，然后这些降解产物被用于能量或构建新的东西。
Autophagy is always occurring at a low level, but you can really hyper-stimulate the process through fasting, calorie restriction, fasting mimicking diets, other things.
自噬总是以较低水平发生，但你可以通过禁食、限制热量、模仿禁食饮食或其他方式真正过度刺激该过程。
And this is why fasting and calorie restriction is such hot topics in the medical field now is because they've been shown to induce longevity, and we think it's probably through that process that you're stimulating the body to Become lean and conservative in terms of its allocation of resources.
这就是为什么禁食和热量限制现在在医学领域如此热门的话题，因为它们已被证明可以延长寿命，而且我们认为，通过这个过程，你可能会刺激身体在资源分配方面变得苗条和保守。
And the body doesn't just destroy the healthiest tissue along with the old dead stuff.
身体不仅会破坏最健康的组织以及旧的死亡物质。
It has these processes that identify the old and defective parts first, and they go first, and that's what's beautiful about the whole thing, and that's why fasting is so important.
它有这些过程，首先识别旧的和有缺陷的部分，然后它们先行，这就是整个事情的美妙之处，这就是为什么禁食如此重要。
So mitophagy, we know plays a really important role because there's this term called mitochondrial dysfunction, which some researchers are actually wanting to get rid of and move away from because, as you just said, mitochondria do so many different things, and different mitochondria, even within the same cell, may very well be specializing in different tasks.
因此，我们知道线粒体自噬起着非常重要的作用，因为有一个叫做线粒体功能障碍的术语，一些研究人员实际上希望摆脱并远离它，因为正如你刚才所说，线粒体会做很多不同的事情，而不同的线粒体，即使在同一细胞内，也很可能专门从事不同的任务。
And mitochondria from one cell to another are sometimes doing very different things.
线粒体从一个细胞到另一个细胞有时会做非常不同的事情。
Not all mitochondria can produce cortisol.
并非所有线粒体都能产生皮质醇。
That's specific to specific cells where those genes are getting turned on.
这是特定于那些基因被打开的特定细胞的。
So it's not like all mitochondria are producing cortisol.
所以并不是所有的线粒体都会产生皮质醇。
Just the ones in your adrenal gland, for instance, are producing cortisol.
例如，只有肾上腺中的细胞才会产生皮质醇。
And it has long been known for decades that mitochondrial dysfunction is associated with everything that ails us essentially.
几十年来，人们早已知道线粒体功能障碍与我们本质上的一切疾病有关。
So David Sinclair published a paper in one of the "Cell" journals, I think, saying that, "Oh, mitochondria are actually the unifying link of everything that we know about aging." Defective mitochondria or defective mitochondrial function, mitochondrial dysfunction, is possibly the unifying cause of aging and all of the aging-related disorders.
因此，大卫·辛克莱在《细胞》杂志上发表了一篇论文，我认为，他说：“哦，线粒体实际上是我们所知道的有关衰老的一切的统一纽带。”线粒体缺陷或线粒体功能缺陷、线粒体功能障碍可能是衰老和所有与衰老相关的疾病的统一原因。
So mitophagy is trying to address all that, is trying to say, "Okay, this is bad.
所以线粒体自噬试图解决所有这些问题，试图说：“好吧，这很糟糕。
We don't want defective mitochondria, and how can we get rid of old ones or defective ones and replace them with new ones?" And I think the most powerful signal and tool that we have right now is, in fact, related to diet.
我们不想要有缺陷的线粒体，我们怎样才能摆脱旧的或有缺陷的线粒体并用新的线粒体替代它们呢？”我认为我们现在拥有的最有力的信号和工具实际上与饮食有关。
It's calorie restriction that is the oldest, truest, best proven way to prevent aging in a wide variety of animal species.
限制热量摄入是多种动物预防衰老的最古老、最真实、最经过验证的方法。
Fasting and intermittent fasting, and again, you can only do those things for so long, and then fasting-mimicking diets can also stimulate this process of mitophagy.
禁食和间歇性禁食，同样，你只能做这些事情这么长时间，然后模仿禁食的饮食也可以刺激这种线粒体自噬过程。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。
I'm excited to share that AG1 has just launched their newest formulation, AG1 Pro.
我很高兴与大家分享，AG1 刚刚推出了他们的最新配方 AG1 Pro。
AG1 Pro takes the clinically backed AG1 formula, which is a blend of vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and adaptogens, and adds three important new ingredients, creatine monohydrate, calcium HMB, and zinc carnosine.
AG1 Pro 采用经过临床支持的 AG1 配方，该配方是维生素、矿物质、益生菌和适应原的混合物，并添加了三种重要的新成分：一水肌酸、HMB 钙和肌肽锌。
Each serving has five grams of creatine monohydrate to support muscle strength and performance, as well as brain health, calcium HMB to support muscle recovery and reduce muscle breakdown, and zinc carnosine to support and improve the lining of your gut.
每份含有 5 克一水肌酸，可支持肌肉力量和性能，以及大脑健康；HMB 钙可支持肌肉恢复并减少肌肉分解；肌肽锌可支持和改善肠道内壁。
All three of these ingredients have compelling science to support them, and therefore, I love seeing them added to the existing AG1 formula.
所有这三种成分都有令人信服的科学支持，因此，我喜欢看到它们添加到现有的 AG1 配方中。
As most of you know, I've been taking AG1 every day for nearly 14 years now.
正如你们大多数人所知，我每天服用 AG1 已有近 14 年了。
I started taking it long before I even knew what a podcast was.
早在我知道什么是播客之前我就开始服用它了。
It's a great product, and it's now made even better with the new AG1 Pro formula.
这是一款很棒的产品，现在新的 AG1 Pro 配方让它变得更好。
If you would like to try AG1 Pro, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1 Pro，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 获取特别优惠。
AG1 is giving away a free bottle of omega-3 coenzyme Q10 with your first subscription.
AG1 首次订阅即可免费赠送一瓶 omega-3 辅酶 Q10。
Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a free bottle of omega-3 coenzyme Q10 with your first AG1 subscription.
同样，请访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman，首次订阅 AG1 即可免费获得一瓶 omega-3 辅酶 Q10。
So what about the typical person who's an omnivore eating some rice, some pasta?
那么，对于典型的杂食动物来说，吃一些米饭、一些面食呢？
Do you think that those people might feel far better or even a little bit better if they were in a lower glucose state?
您认为如果这些人处于较低的血糖状态，他们可能会感觉好得多甚至好一点吗？
I ask this because I think there are a lot of people out there who suffer from full-blown depression, but there are also a lot of people who suffer from moodiness and feeling not so great.
我问这个问题是因为我认为有很多人患有全面的抑郁症，但也有很多人患有情绪低落和感觉不太好。
Subclinical depression.
亚临床抑郁症。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Yes.
是的。
Burnout is what I would call it.
我称之为倦怠。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, and just feeling like some days are great, and then other days they feel lousy for reasons they don't understand.
是的，只是感觉有些日子很棒，而另一些日子则因为他们不明白的原因而感到糟糕。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
I kind of break this field, and I'm probably getting too nerdy right now, but I kind of break this field into cause, what's the actual root cause, and what are effective treatments?
我有点打破这个领域，我现在可能变得太书呆子了，但我有点打破这个领域的原因，真正的根本原因是什么，有效的治疗方法是什么？
And I really see them as two separate things.
我确实将它们视为两个独立的事物。
Calorie restriction, ketogenic diet, carbohydrate restriction, are inducing metabolic changes in the brain and body.
热量限制、生酮饮食、碳水化合物限制正在引起大脑和身体的代谢变化。
And regardless of what the person was eating, they are inducing metabolic changes that can be really beneficial to brain health.
无论人们吃什么，它们都会引起代谢变化，这对大脑健康确实有益。
So going to your broader question about adults modern day, if it's an average person who is not currently under psychiatric care, not taking prescription medicines, but is saying, "I'm burned out.
因此，关于现代成年人的更广泛的问题，如果是一个普通人，目前没有接受精神科护理，没有服用处方药，但会说：“我精疲力竭了。
I'm exhausted.
我累坏了。
I want some of that brain energy that Andrew Huberman's talking about.
我想要一些安德鲁·休伯曼所说的大脑能量。
He talks about feeling good.
他谈到感觉良好。
I want some of that." I'm probably actually going to recommend, let's see if we can just carb restrict for a while and see if that produces clinical benefit.
我想要一些。”我实际上可能会建议，让我们看看是否可以限制碳水化合物一段时间，看看是否会产生临床益处。
I have one, he's not even a patient, just somebody who read my book.
我有一个，他甚至不是病人，只是读过我的书的人。
He had chronic anxiety, was trying meditation, was trying all sorts of things.
他患有慢性焦虑症，正在尝试冥想，正在尝试各种各样的事情。
He was ready to go on prescription medicine.
他准备继续服用处方药。
He read an early copy of the book.
他读过这本书的早期版本。
He took it upon himself without consulting with me to restrict carbohydrates alone.
他在没有与我协商的情况下自行决定单独限制碳水化合物的摄入。
He did not go ketogenic.
他没有生酮。
He is a vegetarian.
他是素食主义者。
He restricted carbs.
他限制碳水化合物。
Within three weeks said, "I don't need prescription medicine.
三周内他说：“我不需要处方药。
I can't believe how much better I feel, and all I did was cut out some of the high-carb foods in my diet." So I think for some people, it can be that simple.
我不敢相信我感觉好多了，我所做的就是减少饮食中的一些高碳水化合物食物。”所以我认为对于某些人来说，事情可能就是这么简单。
For people with serious mental disorders, if they are chronically depressed, if they're on lots of prescription meds, if they're disabled by their symptoms, and certainly if you're bipolar or have schizophrenia or something, those are the people I really do want them to work with a medical professional because meds may need to be adjusted.
对于患有严重精神障碍的人来说，如果他们长期抑郁，如果他们服用大量处方药，如果他们因症状而残疾，当然如果你患有双相情感障碍或患有精神分裂症或其他什么疾病，我真的希望他们与医疗专业人员一起工作，因为药物可能需要调整。
They need a real shot at this diet.
他们需要真正尝试一下这种饮食。
It's not like weight loss.
这不像减肥。
Weight loss, everybody wings it, and either you're successful or you aren't.
减肥，每个人都想成功，但要么成功，要么失败。
You look on the internet or you read a book and seeing whether it works or not.
你上网看看或者读一本书，看看它是否有效。
But if you're using it to treat a serious disorder, I think you need serious help.
但如果你用它来治疗严重的疾病，我认为你需要认真的帮助。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
On behalf of myself and the listeners and certainly just on behalf of everybody out there, because everyone does need to be concerned about mental health issues, whether or not they have them in their family, themselves, or otherwise because they impact everybody.
我代表我自己和听众，当然也代表所有人，因为每个人都需要关心心理健康问题，无论他们的家人、自己或其他人是否有心理健康问题，因为它们影响着每个人。
Just really want to thank you for doing the work that you're doing.
只是真的想感谢您所做的工作。
You've given us a lot of hints into the underlying mechanisms that suggest as to why it would work, and you've given us examples as to how it has worked in patients that you've worked with.
您向我们提供了很多关于其潜在机制的提示，说明了它为何有效，并且您还向我们提供了一些示例，说明它如何在您治疗过的患者中发挥作用。
So thank you for being brave and for taking this on and doing it in such a structured way and for communicating it here today and with the general public through your book and your online presence.
因此，感谢您勇敢地承担起这件事并以如此结构化的方式进行，并感谢您今天在这里通过您的书和在线形象与公众进行交流。
We will certainly point people in the direction of those valuable resources.
我们一定会为人们指明这些宝贵资源的方向。
Thanks so much.
非常感谢。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Yeah, no.
是的，不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We really appreciate it.
我们真的很感激。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Thank you, Andrew, for being brave and having me on your show and-
谢谢你，安德鲁，你很勇敢，让我参加你的节目，而且——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's been a pleasure
很高兴
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
...
...
and for a great conversation.
并进行一次愉快的交谈。