Essentials: How to Build, Maintain & Repair Gut Health | Dr. Justin Sonnenburg
Dr. Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格博士：
Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials, where we revisit past episodes for the most potent and actionable science-based tools for mental health, physical health, and performance.
欢迎来到 Huberman Lab Essentials，在这里我们回顾过去的剧集，寻找针对心理健康、身体健康和表现的最有效、最可操作的基于科学的工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Justin Sonnenburg.
现在我与 Justin Sonnenburg 博士进行讨论。
Justin, thanks so much for being here.
贾斯汀，非常感谢您来到这里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great to be here.
很高兴来到这里。
Dr. Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格博士：
I am a true novice when it comes to the microbiome.
在微生物组方面，我是一个真正的新手。
So I'd like to start off with a really basic question, which is, what is the microbiome?
所以我想从一个非常基本的问题开始，那就是微生物组是什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think, just to start off with clarifying terminology, microbiome and microbiota quite often are used to refer to our microbial community interchangeably, and I'll probably switch between those two terms today.
我认为，首先要澄清术语，微生物组和微生物群经常被用来互换地指代我们的微生物群落，今天我可能会在这两个术语之间切换。
The other important thing to realize is that these microbes are not just in our gut, but they're all over our body.
另一件需要意识到的重要事情是，这些微生物不仅存在于我们的肠道中，而且遍布我们的全身。
They're in our nose, they're in our mouths, they're on our skin.
它们在我们的鼻子里、我们的嘴里、我们的皮肤上。
Basically anywhere that the environment can get to in our body, which includes inside our digestive tract, of course, is colonized with microbes.
基本上，环境可以到达我们体内的任何地方，当然包括我们的消化道内部，都被微生物定殖。
And the vast majority of these are in our distal gut and in our colon.
其中绝大多数位于我们的远端肠道和结肠中。
And so this is the gut microbiota or gut microbiome.
这就是肠道微生物群或肠道微生物组。
And the density of this community is astounding.
这个社区的密度令人震惊。
You start off with a zoomed-out view, and you see something that looks like fecal material, the digesta inside the gut, and you zoom in, and you start to get to the microscopic level and see the microbes.
你从缩小的视图开始，你会看到一些看起来像粪便的东西，肠道内的食糜，然后你放大，你开始达到微观水平并看到微生物。
They are just packed side to side, end to end.
它们只是并排、首尾相连。
It's a super dense bacterial community, almost like a biofilm.
这是一个超级密集的细菌群落，几乎就像生物膜一样。
To the point where it's thought that around 30% of fecal matter is microbes, 30% to 50%.
人们认为粪便中大约 30% 是微生物，即 30% 到 50%。
So it's an incredibly dense microbial community.
所以这是一个极其密集的微生物群落。
We're talking of trillions of microbial cells, and all those microbial cells, if you start to get to know them and see who they are, break out in the gut, probably to hundreds to a thousand species.
我们谈论的是数万亿个微生物细胞，所有这些微生物细胞，如果你开始了解它们并了解它们是谁，就会在肠道中爆发，可能有数百到一千个物种。
Most of these are bacteria, but there are a lot of other life forms there.
其中大部分是细菌，但也有很多其他生命形式。
There are archaea, which are little microbes that are bacteria-like, but they're different.
有古细菌，它们是类似细菌的小微生物，但它们是不同的。
There are eukaryotes.
有真核生物。
So we commonly think of eukaryotes in the gut as something like a parasite, but there are eukaryotes, there are fungi, there are also little viruses.
所以我们通常认为肠道中的真核生物就像寄生虫一样，但有真核生物，有真菌，也有很少的病毒。
There are these bacteriophages that infect bacterial cells.
这些噬菌体会感染细菌细胞。
And those actually outnumber the bacteria like 10 to one.
事实上，这些细菌的数量与细菌的数量之比约为 10 比 1。
So they're just everywhere there.
所以它们无处不在。
They kill bacteria.
它们杀死细菌。
And so there's these really interesting predator-prey interactions.
因此，捕食者与被捕食者之间的互动非常有趣。
But overall, it's just this really dense, complex, dynamic ecosystem.
但总的来说，这就是一个非常密集、复杂、动态的生态系统。
Dr. Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格博士：
Are microbiota seen in newborns?
新生儿中是否存在微生物群？
In other words, where do they come from?
换句话说，它们从哪里来？
And dare I ask, what direction do they enter the body?
我敢问，它们从哪个方向进入身体？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There have been some studies that have looked at whether there are microbes in the womb and microbes colonizing the fetus, and there's some debate about this, but overall, it looks like that's not a big part of the equation of microbial colonization.
已经有一些研究探讨了子宫内是否存在微生物以及微生物在胎儿中定植，对此存在一些争议，但总的来说，这似乎并不是微生物定植方程的重要组成部分。
And so each time an infant is born, it's this new ecosystem.
因此，每次婴儿出生时，都会出现这个新的生态系统。
It's like an island rising up out of the ocean that has no species on it, and suddenly there's this land rush for this open territory.
这就像一座从海洋中升起的岛屿，上面没有任何物种，突然间，陆地热潮涌向这片开放的领土。
There also are a lot of different trajectories that developmental process can take because our microbiota is so malleable and so plastic, and those trajectories can be affected by all sorts of factors in early life.
发育过程也可以采取很多不同的轨迹，因为我们的微生物群具有很强的可塑性和可塑性，而这些轨迹可能会受到生命早期各种因素的影响。
So an example is whether an infant is born by C-section or born vaginally.
举个例子，婴儿是剖腹产还是顺产。
Infants that are born by C-section actually have a gut microbiota that looks more like human skin than it does like either the birth canal, the vagina microbiota, or the mother's stool microbiota.
剖腹产婴儿的肠道微生物群实际上看起来更像人类皮肤，而不是产道、阴道微生物群或母亲粪便微生物群。
Compound on top of that, whether you're breastfed or formula fed, whether your family has a pet or doesn't have a pet, whether you're exposed to antibiotics, there are all these factors that really can change that developmental process and really change your microbial identity eventually in life.
最重要的是，无论您是母乳喂养还是配方奶喂养，无论您的家人是否养宠物，无论您是否接触抗生素，所有这些因素都确实可以改变发育过程，并最终真正改变您生活中的微生物特性。
We know from animal studies that depending upon the microbes that you get early in life, you can send the immune system or metabolism of an organism or other parts of their biology in totally different developmental trajectories.
我们从动物研究中得知，根据生命早期获得的微生物，您可以使生物体的免疫系统或新陈代谢或其生物学的其他部分进入完全不同的发育轨迹。
So what microbes you're colonized with early in life can really change your biology.
因此，您在生命早期定植的微生物确实可以改变您的生物学特性。
Dr. Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格博士：
How do I know if my microbiome is healthy or unhealthy?
我如何知道我的微生物群是健康还是不健康？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Context matters a lot.
背景很重要。
What's healthy for one person or one population may not be healthy for another person or population.
对一个人或一个群体健康的东西可能对另一个人或群体不健康。
And I will say that there's no single answer to this, but there are some really important considerations.
我想说，这个问题没有单一的答案，但有一些非常重要的考虑因素。
Perhaps the best way to start talking about this is to go back to the inception of the Human Microbiome Project, which was this program that NIH started.
也许开始谈论这个问题的最佳方式是回到人类微生物组计划的开始，该计划是 NIH 启动的。
They invested a lot of money in 2008, 2009 for really propelling the field of gut microbiome research.
他们在2008年、2009年投入了大量资金，真正推动了肠道微生物组研究领域的发展。
It was becoming evident at that point that this was not just a curiosity of human biology, that it was probably really important for our health.
那时我们越来越清楚，这不仅仅是人类生物学的好奇心，它可能对我们的健康非常重要。
Through those studies, we really started to get the image that there is this tremendous individuality in the gut microbiome.
通过这些研究，我们真正开始认识到肠道微生物组具有巨大的个性。
And so it's really hard to start drawing conclusions after an initial pass of that project of what is a healthy microbiome.
因此，在什么是健康微生物组的项目初步通过后，真的很难开始得出结论。
But the other thing that we started to realize at the same time, there were studies going on documenting the gut microbiome of traditional populations of humans, hunter-gatherers, rural agricultural populations.
但我们同时开始意识到的另一件事是，有研究记录了传统人类、狩猎采集者、农村农业人口的肠道微生物组。
And those studies were really mind-blowing from the perspective of all these people are healthy, they're living very different lifestyles And their microbiome doesn't look anything like a healthy American microbiome.
从所有这些人都很健康的角度来看，这些研究确实令人兴奋，他们过着截然不同的生活方式，而且他们的微生物组看起来一点也不像健康的美国微生物组。
And so one possibility is that in the industrialized world, we have a different microbiome from traditional populations, and that microbiome is well-adapted to our current lifestyle, and therefore healthy in the context of an industrialized society, and there probably are elements of that that are true.
因此，一种可能性是，在工业化世界中，我们拥有与传统人群不同的微生物组，并且该微生物组很好地适应了我们当前的生活方式，因此在工业化社会的背景下是健康的，并且其中可能存在一些真实的因素。
But another possibility is that this is a microbiome that's gone off the rails, that it is deteriorating in the face of antibiotic use and all the problems associated with a industrialized diet, Western diet.
但另一种可能性是，这是一个脱离正常轨道的微生物组，面对抗生素的使用以及与工业化饮食、西方饮食相关的所有问题，它正在恶化。
And that even though the Human Microbiome Project documented the microbiome of healthy people, healthy Americans, that what they really may have been documenting there is a perturbed microbiota that's really predisposing people to a variety of inflammatory and metabolic diseases.
尽管人类微生物组项目记录了健康人、健康美国人的微生物组，但他们真正记录的可能是一个受到干扰的微生物群，它确实使人们容易患上各种炎症和代谢疾病。
Dr. Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格博士：
By now, I'm sure that many of you have heard me say that I've been taking AG1 for more than a decade, and indeed, that's true.
到现在为止，我相信你们很多人都听我说过我服用 AG1 已有十多年了，确实如此。
The reason I started taking AG1 way back in 2012, and the reason why I still continue to take it every single day, is because AG1 is, to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market.
我早在 2012 年就开始服用 AG1，并且至今仍然每天服用，因为据我所知，AG1 是市场上质量最高、最全面的基础营养补充剂。
What that means is that it contains not just vitamins and minerals, but also probiotics, prebiotics, and adaptogens to cover any gaps that you might have in your diet while also providing support for a demanding life.
这意味着它不仅含有维生素和矿物质，还含有益生菌、益生元和适应原，可以弥补您饮食中可能存在的任何空白，同时也为高要求的生活提供支持。
Given the probiotics and prebiotics in AG1, it also helps support a healthy gut microbiome.
鉴于 AG1 中的益生菌和益生元，它还有助于支持健康的肠道微生物组。
The gut microbiome consists of trillions of little microorganisms that line your digestive tract and impact things such as your immune status, your metabolic health, your hormone health, and much more.
肠道微生物组由数万亿个小微生物组成，它们排列在您的消化道中，并影响您的免疫状态、代谢健康、激素健康等。
Taking AG1 consistently helps my digestion, keeps my immune system strong, and it ensures that my mood and mental focus are always at their best.
持续服用 AG1 有助于我的消化，保持我的免疫系统强大，并确保我的情绪和精神焦点始终处于最佳状态。
AG1 is now available in three new flavors, berry, citrus, and tropical.
AG1 现已推出三种新口味：浆果味、柑橘味和热带味。
And while I've always loved the AG1 original flavor, especially with a bit of lemon juice added, I'm really enjoying the new berry flavor in particular.
虽然我一直很喜欢 AG1 原味，尤其是添加了一点柠檬汁，但我真的特别喜欢新的浆果味。
It tastes great, but then again, I do love all the flavors.
味道很棒，但话又说回来，我确实喜欢所有的口味。
If you'd like to try AG1 and try these new flavors, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1 并尝试这些新口味，您可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。
Just go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get started.
只需访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 即可开始。
If my gut microbiome was dysbiotic, it was off early in life, can I rescue that through proper conditions and exercise, or is there some sort of fixed pattern that's going to be hard for me to escape from?
如果我的肠道微生物群失调，它在生命早期就消失了，我可以通过适当的条件和锻炼来挽救它吗？或者是否存在某种我难以摆脱的固定模式？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
There's a big field that's emerging now that we refer to as kind of reprogramming the gut microbiome.
现在正在出现一个很大的领域，我们称之为肠道微生物组的重新编程。
And the issue that I think we're seeing in the field is that microbiomes quite often, whether they're diseased or healthy, exist in stable states.
我认为我们在该领域看到的问题是微生物组经常以稳定状态存在，无论它们是患病的还是健康的。
They kind of tend towards this well that has gravity to it, in a way, biological gravity, where it's really hard to dislodge that community from that state.
他们倾向于这口有重力的井，在某种程度上，生物重力，在那里很难将该社区从该状态中驱逐出去。
So even individuals, for instance, that get antibiotics, you take oral antibiotics, the community takes this huge hit.
因此，即使是个人，例如，服用抗生素，服用口服抗生素，社区也会受到巨大的打击。
We know that a bunch of microbes die, the composition changes, and that represents a period of vulnerability where pathogens can come in and take over and cause disease.
我们知道，一群微生物死亡，成分发生变化，这代表了一段脆弱时期，病原体可以进入并接管并导致疾病。
But if that doesn't happen, the microbiota kind of works its way back to something that is not exactly like, but similar to, the pre-antibiotic treatment.
但如果这种情况没有发生，微生物群就会回到与抗生素前治疗不完全相同但相似的状态。
We know with dietary perturbations, quite often you'll see a really rapid change to the gut microbiome, and then it's almost like a memory where it snaps back to something that's very similar to the original state, even though the diet remains different.
我们知道，随着饮食的干扰，你经常会看到肠道微生物组发生非常快速的变化，然后它几乎就像一种记忆，它会迅速恢复到与原始状态非常相似的东西，尽管饮食仍然不同。
And so there's this incredible, what we refer to as resilience of the gut microbiome and resistance to change or at least resistance to establishing a new stable state.
因此，这令人难以置信，我们称之为肠道微生物组的恢复力和对变化的抵抗力，或者至少是对建立新的稳定状态的抵抗力。
So that doesn't mean it's hopeless to change an unhealthy microbiome to a healthy microbiome, but it does mean that we need to think carefully about restructuring these communities in ways where we can achieve a new stable state that will resist the microbial community getting pulled back to that original state.
因此，这并不意味着将不健康的微生物组改变为健康的微生物组是没有希望的，但这确实意味着我们需要仔细考虑如何重组这些群落，以实现新的稳定状态，从而抵抗微生物群落被拉回原始状态。
And one of the kind of simplest and nicest examples of this is an experiment that we performed with mice where we're feeding mice a normal mouse diet, a lot of nutrients there for the gut microbiota, things like dietary fiber, and we switch those mice, half the mice, to a low-fiber diet.
最简单、最好的例子之一是我们用小鼠进行的一项实验，我们给小鼠喂食正常的小鼠饮食，为肠道微生物群提供大量营养物质，例如膳食纤维，然后我们将这些小鼠（一半的小鼠）改为低纤维饮食。
And we are basically asking the question that if you switch to kind of a Western-like diet, a low fiber, higher fat diet, what happens to the gut microbiota?
我们基本上要问的问题是，如果你改用西方饮食方式，即低纤维、高脂肪饮食，肠道微生物群会发生什么变化？
And we saw the microbiota change.
我们看到了微生物群的变化。
It lost diversity.
它失去了多样性。
It was very similar to what we see in the difference between industrialized and traditional populations.
这与我们在工业化人口和传统人口之间的差异非常相似。
But when we brought back a healthy diet, a lot of the microbes returned.
但当我们恢复健康饮食时，许多微生物又回来了。
There was this kind of memory where it went back to very similar to its original state.
有这样一种记忆，它回到了和原来非常相似的状态。
The difference is that when we put the mice on a low fiber, high fat diet and then kept them on that for multiple generations, we saw this progressive deterioration over the course of generations, where by the fourth generation, the gut microbiome was a fraction of what it originally was.
不同之处在于，当我们让小鼠接受低纤维、高脂肪饮食，然后让它们持续多代时，我们看到这种情况在几代人的过程中逐渐恶化，到了第四代，肠道微生物组已经只剩下原来的一小部分了。
Let's say 30% of the species only remained.
假设该物种仅剩下 30%。
Something like 70% of the species had gone extinct, or appeared to have gone extinct.
大约 70% 的物种已经灭绝，或者似乎已经灭绝。
We then put those mice back onto a high fiber diet, and we didn't see recovery.
然后我们让这些小鼠重新接受高纤维饮食，但我们没有看到恢复。
Dr. Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So in that case, it's a situation where a new stable state has been achieved.
所以在这种情况下，这是一种已经实现了新的稳定状态的情况。
In that case, it's probably because those mice don't actually have access to the microbes that they've lost, and we actually know that we did the control experiment of mice on a high fiber diet for four generations.
在这种情况下，可能是因为这些小鼠实际上无法接触到它们失去的微生物，而且我们实际上知道我们对四代高纤维饮食的小鼠进行了对照实验。
They maintain all their microbes.
他们保留了所有的微生物。
If we take Those fourth-generation mice with all the diversity and do a fecal transplant into the mice that had lost their microbes but had been returned to a high-fiber diet, all of the diversity was reconstituted.
如果我们将具有所有多样性的第四代小鼠进行粪便移植到失去微生物但恢复高纤维饮食的小鼠中，所有多样性都会被重建。
So your question of like, how do we establish new stable states?
那么你的问题是，我们如何建立新的稳定状态？
How do we get back to a healthy microbiota if we have taken a lot of antibiotics or have a deteriorated microbiota?
如果我们服用了大量抗生素或微生物群恶化，我们如何恢复健康的微生物群？
It's probably a combination of having access to the right microbes, and we can talk about what that access looks like.
这可能是获得正确微生物的组合，我们可以讨论这种访问是什么样的。
It may look like therapeutics in the future.
未来它可能看起来像是一种疗法。
There are a lot of companies working on creating cocktails of healthy microbes.
有很多公司致力于创造健康微生物的鸡尾酒。
But it'll be a combination of access to the right microbes and nourishing those microbes with the proper diet.
但这需要获得正确的微生物并通过适当的饮食滋养这些微生物。
Dr. Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格博士：
What's the idea about cleanses and fasting as it relates to the health or the dysbiosis of the microbiota?
净化和禁食与健康或微生物群失调有何关系？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
We know that in studies that are being done now to reprogram the gut microbiota to install a completely new microbial community, the first step is to wash away the resident microbial community that's there.
我们知道，在目前正在进行的重新编程肠道微生物群以建立全新微生物群落的研究中，第一步是冲走那里的常驻微生物群落。
So if you're in the process of acquiring a really good microbiota and you know how to do that, then the flushing everything out is great.
因此，如果您正在获取非常好的微生物群并且您知道如何做到这一点，那么将所有东西冲掉就很棒了。
Otherwise, what is happening is you're kind of leaving rebuilding of the community to chance.
否则，所发生的事情就是让社区的重建只能靠运气。
Like what is it?
比如它是什么？
And so, what microbes are going to colonize?
那么，哪些微生物将会定居呢？
Who's going to take up space after you do this flush or cleanse and, I think it's a little bit like playing Russian roulette.
在你进行同花或清理之后谁将占据空间，我认为这有点像玩俄罗斯轮盘赌。
You may end up with a good microbial community in there afterwards, you may not.
之后你可能会在那里得到一个良好的微生物群落，也可能不会。
You certainly want to pay close attention to what you're eating while you're doing the reconstitution of the community after you do something like that.
在做完类似的事情后，当你重建社区时，你当然要密切注意你吃的东西。
Dr. Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格博士：
It sounds to me that avoiding processed foods is a good idea.
在我看来，避免加工食品是个好主意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格博士：
Or heavily processed foods in general.
或一般的深加工食品。
Not that the occasional consumption is necessarily bad, but consuming processed foods is just bad for the microbiome.
并不是说偶尔食用一定不好，而是食用加工食品对微生物组有害。
Can we say that categorically?
我们可以断然地说吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For sure.
当然。
Dr. Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
You're exactly right.
你说得完全正确。
And we can break down-- There's a lot of data of why different components of processed food are so bad for us and so bad for our microbiome, and I can talk about a few examples of that.
我们可以分解——有很多数据可以说明为什么加工食品的不同成分对我们如此有害，对我们的微生物组如此有害，我可以谈谈其中的几个例子。
But the flip side of this, the plant-based diet, if you're eating a bunch of complex fibers that feed your gut microbiota, your gut microbiota produces these substances called short-chain fatty acids, things like butyrate.
但另一方面，以植物为基础的饮食，如果你吃一堆复杂的纤维来喂养你的肠道微生物群，你的肠道微生物群就会产生这些称为短链脂肪酸的物质，比如丁酸盐。
And it's known that these short-chain fatty acids play really essential components, both in terms of fueling colonocytes, enforcing the barrier, keeping inflammation low, regulating the immune system, regulating metabolism.
众所周知，这些短链脂肪酸在为结肠细胞提供能量、强化屏障、保持低炎症、调节免疫系统和调节新陈代谢方面发挥着非常重要的作用。
Your gut microbiota is just producing this vast array of fermentation end products that then get absorbed into our bloodstream and have all of these tremendous cascading effects that appear to be largely beneficial on our biology.
您的肠道微生物群正在产生大量的发酵最终产物，然后这些最终产物被吸收到我们的血液中，并产生所有这些巨大的级联效应，这些效应似乎对我们的生物学非常有益。
Now, processed foods, I think, is this other dimension where you have all of these weird chemicals, artificial sweeteners, weird fats, a lot of refined simple nutrients.
现在，我认为加工食品是另一个维度，其中有所有这些奇怪的化学物质、人造甜味剂、奇怪的脂肪、大量精制的简单营养素。
The simple nutrients we've talked about, but we know that, for instance, artificial sweeteners can have a massive negative impact on the gut microbiome and can lead us towards metabolic syndrome, actually.
我们已经讨论过简单的营养素，但我们知道，例如，人工甜味剂会对肠道微生物组产生巨大的负面影响，实际上可能导致我们患上代谢综合征。
There's been beautiful work out of the Weizmann Institute on this.
魏茨曼研究所在这方面做了很多出色的工作。
And then emulsifiers, these compounds that are put in processed foods to help them maintain shelf stability so things don't separate, and so all the moisture content is retained appropriately.
然后是乳化剂，这些化合物被添加到加工食品中，帮助它们保持货架稳定性，这样东西就不会分离，因此所有水分含量都得到适当保留。
Many of these are known to disrupt the mucus layer, and as soon as you start disrupting that barrier, that can lead you in the direction of inflammation.
众所周知，其中许多都会破坏粘液层，一旦您开始破坏该屏障，就会导致炎症。
And in animal models, we know that can lead towards metabolic syndrome as well.
在动物模型中，我们知道这也会导致代谢综合征。
So there's components of processed food that are, when studied in isolation, known to have a direct negative impact on gut biology and the microbiota.
因此，当单独研究时，我们知道加工食品中的某些成分会对肠道生物学和微生物群产生直接的负面影响。
Dr. Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格博士：
I do want to make sure that we distinguish artificial sweeteners from non-caloric plant-based sweeteners.
我确实想确保我们区分人工甜味剂和无热量植物甜味剂。
Do we know anything about plant-based non-caloric sweeteners or low-caloric sweeteners?
我们对植物性无热量甜味剂或低热量甜味剂了解吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very little.
很少。
A lot of those have a lot more bang for the buck.
其中很多都物有所值。
They're incredibly sweet, so it takes a really small amount for them to trigger a huge amount of sweetness.
它们非常甜，所以只需要很少的量就能引发大量的甜味。
And so it's depending upon the mechanism of action by which these sweeteners that are not sugar are impacting our biology.
因此，这取决于这些非糖甜味剂影响我们生物学的作用机制。
It may be that those are actually less negative or more healthy than the ones that are artificial, just because it requires less of them in the food for us to perceive that sweet taste.
也许这些实际上比人造的负面影响更少或更健康，只是因为食物中需要更少的它们才能让我们感受到甜味。
Historically, there are, I think, traditional populations that use these, for instance, to sweeten different foods, that our bodies just kind of know how to deal with those compounds better than the ones that are synthetic.
我认为，从历史上看，有一些传统人群使用这些化合物来使不同的食物变甜，我们的身体只是知道如何比合成化合物更好地处理这些化合物。
But I think the studies still need to be done.
但我认为研究仍然需要完成。
Dr. Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格博士：
Do you actively avoid artificial sweeteners, sucralose, aspartame, saccharin?
您是否积极避免人工甜味剂、三氯蔗糖、阿斯巴甜、糖精？
You personally.
你个人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I do.
是的，我愿意。
I avoid them, but I think that just doing things in moderation makes it a lot easier, and doing things slowly makes it a lot easier.
我会避开它们，但我认为适度做事会让事情变得容易得多，而慢慢地做事会让事情变得容易得多。
And so there are very few rules that I have that are hard and fast.
因此，我的规则很少是硬性的。
I'm a pretty flexible eater.
我的饮食非常灵活。
I don't believe that having a Diet Coke will somehow cascade into some terrible disease or something like that.
我不相信喝健怡可乐会以某种方式引发某种可怕的疾病或类似的事情。
Dr. Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格博士：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Joovv.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 Joovv。
Joovv makes medical-grade red light therapy devices.
Joovv 生产医疗级红光治疗设备。
Now, if there's one thing that I've consistently emphasized on this podcast, it is the incredible impact that light can have on our biology and our health.
现在，如果我在这个播客中一直强调一件事，那就是光对我们的生物学和健康产生的令人难以置信的影响。
Red light and infrared light have been shown to have remarkable effects on cellular and organ health, including improved mitochondrial function, improved skin health and appearance, reduced pain and inflammation, and even for improving vision itself.
红光和红外光已被证明对细胞和器官健康具有显着影响，包括改善线粒体功能、改善皮肤健康和外观、减轻疼痛和炎症，甚至改善视力本身。
Recent research shows that even relatively brief exposure to red and infrared light can meaningfully improve your metabolism and blood sugar regulation.
最近的研究表明，即使相对短暂地暴露在红光和红外光下也可以有意义地改善您的新陈代谢和血糖调节。
Now, there are a lot of different red light therapy devices out there, but what sets Joovv lights apart and why they're my preferred red light therapy device is that they use clinically proven wavelengths, meaning specific wavelengths of red light, near-infrared, and infrared light in exactly the right ratios to trigger the cellular adaptations for health.
现在，市面上有很多不同的红光治疗设备，但 Joovv 灯的与众不同之处以及它们成为我首选红光治疗设备的原因在于它们使用经过临床验证的波长，这意味着特定波长的红光、近红外光和红外光以完全正确的比例来触发细胞适应健康。
Personally, I use the Joovv whole body panel about three to four times per week for about five to 10 minutes per session, and I use the Joovv handheld light both at home and when I travel.
就我个人而言，我每周使用 Joovv 全身面板约三到四次，每次约 5 到 10 分钟，并且我在家中和旅行时都使用 Joovv 手持灯。
If you'd like to try Joovv, you can go to Joovv, spelled J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Joovv，可以访问 Joovv，拼写为 J-O-O-V-V，.com/huberman。
Right now, Joovv is offering a special holiday discount of up to $600 off select Joovv products.
目前，Joovv 正在为部分 Joovv 产品提供高达 600 美元的特别假期折扣。
Again, that's Joovv, J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman to get up to $600 off.
同样，Joovv、J-O-O-V-V、.com/huberman 可享受高达 600 美元的折扣。
I'd love to talk about fiber and fermented foods because you and Chris had a, what I think is a really interesting and exciting paper comparing inflammatory markers of people who ate a certain amount of fiber or a certain amount of these fermented foods.
我很想谈谈纤维和发酵食品，因为你和克里斯有一篇，我认为这是一篇非常有趣和令人兴奋的论文，比较了吃了一定量纤维或一定量这些发酵食品的人的炎症标志物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Before I dive into that study, let me take a step back because I think the reason that we did this study goes back to this kind of epiphany that we had while studying the gut microbiome.
在深入研究这项研究之前，让我退后一步，因为我认为我们进行这项研究的原因可以追溯到我们在研究肠道微生物组时的这种顿悟。
Because I think when we started studying it at Stanford, we were thinking about it as this kind of newly appreciated aspect of our biology, almost like finding an organ that we didn't know was there and starting to think about all the drug targets that were there.
因为我认为当我们开始在斯坦福大学研究它时，我们将其视为我们生物学的这种新认识的方面，几乎就像找到一个我们不知道在那里的器官并开始思考那里的所有药物靶点一样。
Can we go in with small molecule drugs and think of ways to manipulate this community to ameliorate disease?
我们可以使用小分子药物并想出操纵这个群体来改善疾病的方法吗？
And this is largely the mindset of Western medicine and largely born out of the era of infectious disease.
这在很大程度上是西方医学的思维方式，并且很大程度上诞生于传染病时代。
You wait for an infection to start, a bacterial infection, you treat with antibiotics, and that's the way medicine is practiced.
你等待感染开始，细菌感染，你用抗生素治疗，这就是医学的实践方式。
And that's become less successful over time as we've moved into this era of inflammatory Western diseases and largely moved out of the era of infectious diseases, at least infectious bacterial diseases, that this paradigm of waiting for diseases to appear and come into the clinic is not really very effective in the context of inflammatory Western diseases, autoimmune diseases, metabolic syndrome, heart diseases, and inflammatory disease.
随着时间的推移，随着我们进入西方炎症性疾病时代，并在很大程度上摆脱了传染病，至少是细菌性传染性疾病时代，这种等待疾病出现并进入临床的模式在西方炎症性疾病、自身免疫性疾病、代谢综合征、心脏病和炎症性疾病的背景下并不是非常有效。
The list goes on and on.
这样的例子不胜枚举。
And so we started to think a lot about how can we get out in front of this?
所以我们开始思考如何才能摆脱困境？
How can we think about preventative ways of dealing with this crisis of metabolic and inflammatory diseases?
我们如何思考应对代谢和炎症疾病危机的预防方法？
And this tremendous, beautiful body of literature started to come forward in the field that showed that the gut microbiome is absolutely critical to modulating our immune status.
大量精美的文献开始在该领域出现，表明肠道微生物组对于调节我们的免疫状态绝对至关重要。
So if you change the microbiome, you can fundamentally change how the immune system operates.
因此，如果改变微生物组，就可以从根本上改变免疫系统的运作方式。
And we know that the immune system is at the basis of a lot of these diseases, inflammatory chronic diseases.
我们知道，免疫系统是许多此类疾病（炎症性慢性疾病）的基础。
And so it brought up this possibility that maybe the fact that we're not nourishing this community well enough, maybe the fact that it's deteriorated over time due to all of the things that go along with an industrialized lifestyle, antibiotics, and so forth.
因此它提出了这种可能性，也许是因为我们没有足够好地滋养这个社区，也许是因为随着时间的推移，由于工业化生活方式、抗生素等带来的所有因素，它正在恶化。
Maybe we have a microbiome right now in the industrialized world that is setting our immune system at a set point, simmering inflammation that's driving us towards these inflammatory diseases.
也许我们现在在工业化世界中有一个微生物组，它正在将我们的免疫系统设定在一个设定点，引发炎症，从而驱使我们患上这些炎症性疾病。
And wouldn't it be wonderful if we could figure out how to use diet specifically, but just kind of learn the rules of how to reconfigure both the composition and function of our gut microbiome so that inflammation was different in our bodies so that each one of us was less likely to go on and to develop an inflammatory disease.
如果我们能够弄清楚如何具体使用饮食，但只是学习如何重新配置肠道微生物组的组成和功能的规则，从而使我们体内的炎症不同，从而使我们每个人都不太可能继续发展炎症性疾病，那不是很棒吗？
Our flagship study, we wanted to understand if we put people on a high-fiber diet, how would that affect their microbiome and immune system?
我们的旗舰研究，我们想了解如果我们让人们食用高纤维饮食，这会如何影响他们的微生物组和免疫系统？
And if we put them on a high-fermented food diet, a diet rich in live microbes and all the metabolites that are present from fermentation in foods, how would that change microbiome and immune system?
如果我们让他们吃高发酵食品，富含活微生物和食物发酵产生的所有代谢物，这会如何改变微生物组和免疫系统？
The idea was, in the case of the high-fiber diet, just increasing plant-based fiber.
这个想法是，就高纤维饮食而言，只是增加植物性纤维。
So can you eat more whole grains, more legumes, more vegetables, nuts, get the fiber up in the range of from 15 to 20 grams per day up to over 40 grams per day.
因此，您可以多吃全谷物、豆类、蔬菜、坚果，将纤维摄入量提高到每天 15 至 20 克，最多每天 40 克以上。
So can you kind of double or more the amount of fiber that you eat per day?
那么你可以将每天吃的纤维量增加一倍或更多吗？
The people that were eating the high-fermented food diet, they were instructed to basically eat foods that you could buy at a grocery store that were naturally fermented and contained live microbes.
那些吃高发酵食物的人被要求基本上吃你可以在杂货店买到的自然发酵且含有活微生物的食物。
Yogurt, kefir, sauerkraut, kimchi.
酸奶，开菲尔，酸菜，泡菜。
We instructed people to eat non-sweetened yogurts.
我们指导人们吃不加糖的酸奶。
A huge pitfall in this area is you can have a yogurt loaded with bacteria, kind of the base of what's healthy, and then a ton of artificial flavoring and sugar loaded on top of that.
这方面的一个巨大陷阱是，你可以喝一种富含细菌的酸奶，这是健康食品的基础，然后在上面添加大量的人工香料和糖。
Manufacturers put a ton of sugar in after the fact to kind of mask the sour taste of fermented foods, which is hard for some people to become accustomed to.
制造商在事后加入大量糖，以掩盖发酵食品的酸味，这对一些人来说很难习惯。
Getting used to that sour flavor is difficult, but people really should try to stay away from those fermented foods that are loaded with sugar, and that's what we instructed people in this study.
习惯这种酸味很困难，但人们确实应该尽量远离那些富含糖的发酵食品，这就是我们在这项研究中指导人们的内容。
Dr. Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格博士：
A lot of people shy away from the high-quality fermented foods because they can be quite costly.
许多人回避高质量的发酵食品，因为它们可能非常昂贵。
I'll just refer people to a resource in Tim Ferriss' book, "The 4-Hour Chef." He actually gives an excellent recipe for making your own sauerkraut, which basically involves cabbage and water and salt.
我只会向人们推荐蒂姆·费里斯 (Tim Ferriss) 的书《4 小时厨师》中的资源。他实际上给出了一个制作自己酸菜的绝佳食谱，其中基本上包括卷心菜、水和盐。
But you have to do it properly because you can grow some, not necessarily lethal, but somewhat dangerous bacteria if you don't scrape off the top layer properly.
但你必须做得正确，因为如果你不正确地刮掉顶层，你可能会生长一些不一定致命但有些危险的细菌。
But he gives beautiful instructions for how to do this in vats.
但他给出了如何在桶中进行此操作的精美说明。
So you can make large amounts of truly fermented sauerkraut just from cabbage, water, and salt if you're willing to follow the protocol.
因此，如果您愿意遵循该协议，您可以仅用卷心菜、水和盐来制作大量真正发酵的酸菜。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you can get your hands on a SCOBY, kombucha is another one that's super simple.
如果你能买到 SCOBY，康普茶是另一种超级简单的。
It's like-
这就像——
Dr. Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格博士：
You can grow your own.
你可以自己种植。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can just make your own, and it's super easy to do.
您可以自己制作，而且非常容易做到。
I make it.
我做到了。
I constantly have a batch of kombucha going at home.
我家里经常有一批康普茶。
And it's just a SCOBY, a symbiotic community of bacteria and yeast that you brew tea, you add sugar to it, and you put the SCOBY in, and you wait a week or two, depending upon the temperature, and then you just move the SCOBY over to a new batch, and what the SCOBY was in is kombucha, and it's wonderful.
它只是一个SCOBY，一个细菌和酵母的共生群落，你泡茶，往里面加糖，然后把SCOBY放进去，等一两周，具体取决于温度，然后你把SCOBY移到新一批，SCOBY里面的是康普茶，这太棒了。
Dr. Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格博士：
How much fermented food were they consuming in servings, ounces?
他们每份消耗了多少发酵食品（盎司）？
How many times a day?
一天几次？
Early day, late day?
早点，晚点？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The general instructions were for people to eat as much fermented foods as possible.
一般指示是让人们尽可能多地吃发酵食品。
More is better.
越多越好。
People during the height of the intervention phase were up over six servings on average per day of fermented foods, so two servings at each meal.
在干预的高峰期，人们平均每天摄入超过六份发酵食品，因此每餐摄入两份。
And the ounces or weight or size, it really depended on what the fermented food was, and we just told them to stick to what was a recommended dose on the package that they were buying.
盎司、重量或大小，实际上取决于发酵食品是什么，我们只是告诉他们坚持购买包装上的推荐剂量。
For a kombucha, it'd be a six- to eight-ounce glass, sauerkraut a half cup or something like that, and the same with yogurt.
对于康普茶，它是六到八盎司的玻璃杯，酸菜是半杯或类似的东西，酸奶也是如此。
The big signal really was in the fermented food group.
最大的信号确实是发酵食品组。
We saw all the things that you would hope to see in a Western microbiota and Western human.
我们看到了你希望在西方微生物群和西方人类身上看到的所有东西。
We saw this increase in microbiota diversity over the course of the six weeks while they were consuming the fermented foods.
在他们食用发酵食品的六周内，我们看到微生物群多样性的增加。
We can't always say that higher diversity is better when it comes to our microbial communities.
对于我们的微生物群落来说，我们不能总是说多样性越高越好。
We know there are cases, for instance, bacterial vaginosis, where higher diversity is actually indicative of a disease state.
我们知道，在某些情况下，例如细菌性阴道病，较高的多样性实际上表明了疾病状态。
But we know in the context of the gut and for people living in the industrialized world, higher diversity is generally better.
但我们知道，对于生活在工业化世界的人们来说，肠道的多样性通常越高越好。
We know that there's a spectrum of diversity.
我们知道存在一系列多样性。
People with higher diversity generally are healthier.
具有较高多样性的人通常更健康。
If you can push your diversity higher, you're in better shape.
如果你能提高你的多样性，你就会处于更好的状态。
And so we saw that increase in diversity, and then the major question is what happened to the immune system as these people were increasing their gut microbiota diversity through the fermented foods?
所以我们看到了多样性的增加，然后主要的问题是，当这些人通过发酵食品增加肠道微生物群多样性时，免疫系统发生了什么？
So we did this massive immune profiling, and we see a couple dozen immune markers, inflammatory markers decrease over the course of the study.
因此，我们进行了大规模的免疫分析，我们看到几十种免疫标记物、炎症标记物在研究过程中减少了。
So we measure these at multiple time points throughout the course of the study, and there's this stepwise reduction in things like interleukin-6 and interleukin-12, a variety of famous inflammatory mediators.
因此，我们在整个研究过程中的多个时间点对这些进行了测量，并且白细胞介素 6 和白细胞介素 12（多种著名的炎症介质）等物质逐步减少。
And then even if you go into the immune cells and you start looking at their signaling cascades, we see that those signaling cascades are less activated at the end of the study compared to the beginning of the study, indicating an attenuation of inflammation.
然后，即使你进入免疫细胞并开始观察它们的信号级联，我们也会发现与研究开始时相比，这些信号级联在研究结束时的激活程度较低，这表明炎症减弱。
So exactly what we would hypothesize would lead to less propensity for inflammatory disease over time.
因此，我们的假设是随着时间的推移，炎症性疾病的可能性会降低。
That's a huge extension of a very short study.
这是一项非常简短的研究的巨大延伸。
Dr. Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格博士：
But did people say they were feeling better in any way?
但人们有没有说他们感觉好多了？
And if so, what did you observe?
如果是这样，你观察到了什么？
And again, we're highlighting these as anecdata.
我们再次强调这些作为轶事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Tons of people say they have more energy, they think more clearly, they sleep better.
很多人说他们有更多的精力，他们的思维更清晰，他们的睡眠更好。
And it's really hard to uncouple like, is this because these people have taken charge now of what they're eating and just feel better in general for being in control of what they're doing?
确实很难分开，这是因为这些人现在已经掌控了自己吃的东西，并且总体上感觉更好，因为可以控制自己正在做的事情吗？
Or is there this cascading set of effects that are actually emanating from the gut-brain axis?
或者是否存在实际上源自肠脑轴的一系列级联效应？
And I should say, the list of this goes on and on.
我应该说，这样的例子不胜枚举。
There are people who claim that their complexion improves and that their allergies, and there's probably all sorts of ripple effects.
有些人声称他们的肤色得到了改善，过敏也得到了改善，这可能会产生各种各样的连锁反应。
If you can affect your inflammation, we know that you can affect your cognition.
如果您可以影响您的炎症，我们知道您可以影响您的认知。
We know that you can affect your skin and inflammation that's occurring on your skin.
我们知道您会影响您的皮肤和皮肤上发生的炎症。
So I really think that there is a basis for a lot of those anecdotes.
所以我真的认为很多这样的轶事都是有根据的。
It may just be hard to see in a short study and in a small cohort of people over a short period of time.
在短期研究和短时间内的一小群人中可能很难看到这一点。
We also have a standardized stool measure that people use, and there was less constipation, better bowel movements over the course of both of these interventions.
我们还有一个供人们使用的标准化粪便测量方法，在这两种干预措施的过程中，便秘减少了，排便也改善了。
So it did seem like bowel habits improved, which a lot of times can lead to better moods.
所以看起来排便习惯确实得到了改善，很多时候这可以带来更好的情绪。
But that we weren't able to measure that.
但我们无法衡量这一点。
Dr. Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格博士：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。
Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.
去年，在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我成为了 Function 成员。
Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health.
Function 提供 100 多项高级实验室测试，为您提供整个身体健康状况的关键快照。
This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more.
此快照为您提供有关心脏健康、激素健康、免疫功能、营养水平等方面的见解。
Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas.
Function 不仅提供对您的身心健康至关重要的 100 多种生物标记物的测试，而且还分析这些结果并提供相关领域专家的顶级医生的见解。
For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood.
例如，在我第一次使用 Function 进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量升高。
Function not only helped me detect that but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification.
功能不仅帮助我发现了这一点，还提供了如何最好地降低汞含量的见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼消费，我一直在吃大量金枪鱼，同时还努力多吃绿叶蔬菜并补充 NAC、N-乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒。
And I should say, by taking a second Function test, that approach worked.
我应该说，通过进行第二次功能测试，这种方法奏效了。
Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important.
全面的血液检测至关重要。
There are so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test.
有很多与您的心理和身体健康相关的事情只能通过血液检查来检测。
The problem is blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated.
问题是血液检测一直非常昂贵且复杂。
In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost.
相比之下，Function 的简单性和成本水平给我留下了深刻的印象。
It is very affordable.
这是非常实惠的。
As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.
因此，我决定加入他们的科学顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。
If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Function，可以访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。
Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman Podcast listeners.
Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等候名单，但他们正在为 Huberman 播客听众提供早期访问服务。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.
同样，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。
What sorts of interesting things did you observe in the fiber group?
您在纤维组中观察到哪些有趣的事情？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Data seem to be telling us that if you start off with a diverse microbiota, maybe one that's better equipped to degrade a wide variety of dietary fiber, you're more likely to respond positively to it.
数据似乎告诉我们，如果您一开始就拥有多样化的微生物群，也许能够更好地降解多种膳食纤维，那么您更有可能对其做出积极反应。
If you have a very depleted gut microbiome, you're not as likely to be able to respond to it.
如果您的肠道微生物群非常匮乏，您就不太可能对其做出反应。
And thinking back to that experiment that we talked about before with the multi-generational loss of fiber-fermenting microbes in mice that were fed a Western diet, it may be that Many of us in the industrialized world have a microbiome that's so depleted now that even if we consume a high-fiber diet, at least for a short period of time, we don't have the right microbes in our gut to degrade that fiber.
回想一下我们之前讨论过的实验，即在喂食西方饮食的小鼠中，纤维发酵微生物的多代丧失，可能是我们工业化世界中的许多人的微生物组现在都已经耗尽，即使我们食用高纤维饮食，至少在短时间内，我们的肠道中也没有合适的微生物来降解纤维。
And this has actually been observed by other groups.
其他团体实际上也观察到了这一点。
Beautiful study out of University of Minnesota, looking at immigrants coming to the United States.
明尼苏达大学的一项精彩研究，着眼于来到美国的移民。
And within nine months, but certainly over the course of years, immigrants that come here lose a lot of the diversity in their gut microbiome, but a lot of the fiber-degrading capacity in their gut microbiome, too.
在九个月内，但肯定是在几年的时间里，来到这里的移民失去了肠道微生物组的大量多样性，但肠道微生物组中也失去了很多纤维降解能力。
So it could be that over time, this becomes a one-way street, and it's hard for us to recover the microbes that actually can degrade the fiber.
因此，随着时间的推移，这可能会变成一条单行道，我们很难回收实际上可以降解纤维的微生物。
And I think that this probably intersects with sanitation in our environment and the fact that we don't have access to new microbes that might help us degrade the fiber, that we actually have lost these microbes, and they're in some ways irrecoverable without deliberate reintroduction of fiber-degrading microbes.
我认为这可能与我们环境中的卫生设施以及我们无法获得可能帮助我们降解纤维的新微生物这一事实相交叉，我们实际上已经失去了这些微生物，并且如果不故意重新引入纤维降解微生物，它们在某种程度上是无法恢复的。
Dr. Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格博士：
Well, you have children.
嗯，你有孩子了。
Do you encourage them to interact with pets and dirt and-
你是否鼓励他们与宠物和泥土互动以及-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格博士：
...
...
stuff in the environment, provided that stuff wasn't immediately toxic?
环境中的物质，前提是这些物质不会立即有毒？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Certainly, just with infectious diseases in general, it's really important to be aware of the possibility for compromising your health through the spread of germs.
当然，就一般传染病而言，意识到细菌传播可能损害您的健康非常重要。
And so that is just hand washing is important, and we have to be careful with the spread of germs.
因此，洗手很重要，我们必须小心细菌的传播。
But I do think that the sanitization of our environment has gone overboard with the various things being impregnated with antibiotics, shopping carts and things like that, and toothbrushes.
但我确实认为我们的环境消毒已经过度了，各种东西都充满了抗生素，购物车之类的东西，还有牙刷。
It's like antibiotics and things for killing microbes are everywhere.
就像抗生素和杀死微生物的东西无处不在。
And when our daughters were young and we were making these decisions, the calculations that we would make were really, one, how likely are they to encounter a disease-causing microbe?
当我们的女儿还小的时候，我们在做出这些决定时，我们所做的计算实际上是，一，她们遇到致病微生物的可能性有多大？
If we've been out on a hike or in our garden, just kind of working in the dirt or whatever, maybe it's not as important to wash your hands before you have lunch, even if there's a little bit of dirt on them.
如果我们出去远足或在花园里，只是在泥土中工作或其他什么，也许在吃午饭之前洗手并不那么重要，即使手上有一点污垢。
If they've been in a public playground where maybe there's other kids with germs or maybe even chemicals like pesticides and herbicides that are being used, maybe it's more important then to wash your hands.
如果他们去过公共游乐场，那里可能还有其他带有细菌的孩子，甚至可能正在使用杀虫剂和除草剂等化学物质，也许洗手比洗手更重要。
Certainly, if you've been in the grocery store or on the subway, probably a good idea to wash your hands.
当然，如果您去过杂货店或地铁，洗手可能是个好主意。
So I think you really need to think about the context of it, and exposure to microbes from the environment is likely an important part of educating our immune system and keeping the proper balance in our immune system, and it's just a matter of figuring out the right way to do that safely.
所以我认为你真的需要考虑它的背景，接触环境中的微生物可能是教育我们的免疫系统和保持免疫系统适当平衡的重要组成部分，这只是找出安全地做到这一点的正确方法的问题。
Dr. Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格博士：
What's the thought about probiotics for the typical person that's not recovering from a round of antibiotics-
对于那些没有从一轮抗生素中恢复过来的普通人来说，益生菌的想法是什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格博士：
...
...
or that has been prescribed them?
或者他们已经规定了？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I think the first thing to say is buyer beware because it's a supplement market, it's largely unregulated, and that means that there are a lot of bad products out there and a lot of products that, even though they're not intended to be bad, just don't have great quality control.
因此，我认为首先要说的是买家要小心，因为这是一个补充剂市场，很大程度上不受监管，这意味着那里有很多劣质产品，而且很多产品虽然无意劣质，但没有很好的质量控制。
There have been several studies that have taken over-the-counter, just off-the-shelf probiotics, surveyed what's in there based on sequencing, and shown that what is in there does not match what's on the label.
有几项研究采用了非处方、现成的益生菌，根据测序调查了其中的成分，结果表明其中的成分与标签上的成分不符。
So there are places that probiotic companies can send their product to have it independently validated, so you want to look for that sort of validation on a product.
因此，益生菌公司可以将其产品发送到某些地方进行独立验证，因此您需要在产品上寻找此类验证。
There also are names that are just very well-known, and their reputations are on the line, so they probably invest a little bit more in quality control than maybe some of the other lesser-known names.
还有一些品牌非常知名，他们的声誉岌岌可危，因此他们可能比其他一些不太知名的品牌在质量控制方面投入更多。
Because there's such a huge range of products and because each person is their own little caper when it comes to the microbiome, it's really hard to know whether there are great products for a given indication.
因为产品种类繁多，而且每个人在微生物组方面都有自己的小问题，所以很难知道是否有适合特定适应症的优质产品。
The really good advice that I've heard is try to find a study that supports in a really well-designed study, and this is very hard for people who aren't scientists to evaluate.
我听到的真正好的建议是尝试找到一项支持设计良好的研究的研究，这对于非科学家来说很难评估。
But if you're experiencing a medical problem or want to consult a doctor, that might be helpful.
但如果您遇到健康问题或想咨询医生，这可能会有所帮助。
But finding a study where a specific probiotic has successfully done whatever it is you're looking for and then sticking with that probiotic is really the best recipe as a place to start in this space, I think.
但我认为，找到一项研究，其中某种特定的益生菌成功地完成了您正在寻找的任何事情，然后坚持使用该益生菌，这确实是这个领域最好的起点。
Dr. Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格博士：
And what about prebiotics?
那么益生元呢？
Because there are a number of reasons why I can imagine that prebiotics would be beneficial.
因为有很多原因可以解释为什么我可以想象益生元是有益的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The studies that have been done on prebiotics, it's really kind of a mixed bag of results.
关于益生元的研究结果确实是好坏参半。
There have been studies done with purified fibers where you actually see microbiota diversity plummet over the course of the study because you get a very specific bloom in a small number of bacteria that are good at using that one type of fiber, and that's at the expense of all the other microbes that are in the gut.
已经有一些关于纯化纤维的研究，在研究过程中，你实际上会看到微生物群多样性直线下降，因为你会在少数擅长使用这种纤维的细菌中得到非常特定的繁殖，而这是以肠道中所有其他微生物为代价的。
And so it's really hard to replicate with purified fiber what you'd get, for instance, at a salad bar in terms of the array of complex carbohydrates that you would be exposing your microbiota to.
因此，用纯化纤维很难复制你在沙拉吧得到的东西，因为你的微生物群会接触到一系列复杂的碳水化合物。
And I think the kind of broad view of this in the field is that consuming a broad variety of plants and all the diverse fiber that comes with that is probably better in fostering diversity in your microbiota than purified fibers.
我认为该领域的广泛观点是，食用多种植物和随之而来的所有不同纤维可能比纯化纤维更能促进微生物群的多样性。
Now, there are, again, a lot of people who benefit from purified fibers, either for GI motility or for other aspects of GI health problems that they've been experiencing.
现在，很多人再次受益于纯化纤维，无论是对于胃肠动力还是对于他们所经历的胃肠道健康问题的其他方面。
Again, I think it's the type of thing where you have to try to find the thing that's right for you.
再说一次，我认为这是一种你必须尝试找到适合你的事情。
But there also are studies that suggest that if you layer rapidly fermentable fibers on top of a Western diet, you actually can result in weird metabolism happening in your liver because you have this incredibly rapid fermentation of fiber along with a lot of fat coming into the system.
但也有研究表明，如果在西方饮食中加入快速发酵的纤维，实际上会导致肝脏中发生奇怪的新陈代谢，因为纤维的发酵速度非常快，同时大量的脂肪进入系统。
At least that's the theory.
至少理论上是这样。
And in a mouse study that was published a few years ago, they actually see that a subset of the mice develop hepatocellular carcinoma when they're fed a high-dose prebiotic-
在几年前发表的一项小鼠研究中，他们实际上发现，当给小鼠喂食高剂量益生元时，一部分小鼠会患上肝细胞癌——
Dr. Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格博士：
Liver cancer
肝癌
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
liver cancer-
肝癌-
Dr. Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
on top of a Western diet.
在西方饮食之上。
So whether that's representative of human biology, we don't know.
所以我们不知道这是否代表人类生物学。
But purified fibers are definitely very different, both in terms of the diversity of structures, but also in terms of how rapidly they're fermented in the gut.
但纯化纤维肯定有很大不同，无论是在结构的多样性方面，还是在它们在肠道中发酵的速度方面。
Because if you are eating plants, the complex structures there really slow the microbes down in terms of fermentation, and you end up with a slow rate of fermentation over the length of your colon, as opposed to this big burst of fermentation that can happen if you eat something that is highly soluble and easily accessed by the microbes.
因为如果你吃植物，那里的复杂结构确实会减慢微生物的发酵速度，最终你的整个结肠的发酵速度会很慢，而如果你吃的是高度可溶且容易被微生物接触的东西，就会发生巨大的发酵。
Dr. Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格博士：
So you've covered a tremendous amount of information, and I'm incredibly grateful.
所以你已经涵盖了大量的信息，我非常感激。
Where can people find out more about the work that you're doing?
人们可以在哪里找到有关您正在从事的工作的更多信息？
We can certainly provide links, and you have a book on this topic.
我们当然可以提供链接，并且您有一本关于此主题的书。
So could you tell us about the book, where we can learn more about the Sonnenburg lab and the work that you're doing?
那么您能否向我们介绍一下这本书，我们可以在其中了解有关 Sonnenburg 实验室和您正在做的工作的更多信息？
Maybe people will even try and enroll in some of these studies.
也许人们甚至会尝试参加其中一些研究。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So Erica, my wife, and I wrote a book called "The Good Gut", and that really was a response to how we were changing our lives in response to being in the field, being very familiar with the research, seeing that a lot of our friends that weren't studying the gut microbiome but were very well-informed, many of them scientists, were not doing the same things we were doing.
因此，我和我的妻子艾丽卡（Erica）写了一本名为《好肠道》的书，这确实是对我们如何改变生活的回应，因为我们身处该领域，非常熟悉这项研究，看到我们的许多朋友虽然没有研究肠道微生物组，但消息灵通，其中许多是科学家，但他们并没有做我们正在做的同样的事情。
And it was very clear that it was just the lack of information funneling out of the field to other people, and so we wanted to make that accessible to people who are not microbiome scientists.
很明显，这只是缺乏从该领域向其他人输送的信息，因此我们希望让非微生物组科学家的人也能获得这些信息。
And then, in terms of kind of connecting with our research, certainly there's the Center for Human Microbiome Studies at Stanford, which is kind of our home base for doing a lot of these dietary interventions.
然后，就与我们的研究的联系而言，当然有斯坦福大学人类微生物组研究中心，它是我们进行许多饮食干预的基地。
We list the studies there, give more information on what we're doing, and then we have a lab website too that people can go to and read more about our research, and we're always looking for participants for our studies.
我们在那里列出了研究，提供了有关我们正在做的事情的更多信息，然后我们也有一个实验室网站，人们可以访问并阅读有关我们研究的更多信息，并且我们一直在寻找研究参与者。
Dr. Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格博士：
Thank you so much for your time and for the work you do, and I hope we can do it again.
非常感谢您的宝贵时间和所做的工作，我希望我们能再次这样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thanks, Andrew.
谢谢，安德鲁。
This was a great conversation.
这是一次很棒的谈话。
Dr. Justin Sonnenburg:
贾斯汀·索南伯格博士：
Terrific.
太棒了。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
"I didn't like what you said," Odin pauses, "about the future." This is the love story of real Hinge couple Odin and Edward, written and read by me, Curtis Garner.
“我不喜欢你所说的，”奥丁停顿了一下，“关于未来。”这是真实的铰链夫妇奥丁和爱德华的爱情故事，由我柯蒂斯·加纳撰写和阅读。
Listen to the free audiobook now.
立即收听免费有声读物。