Essentials: Breathing for Mental & Physical Health & Performance | Dr. Jack Feldman
Andrew Huberman: Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials, where we revisit past episodes for the most potent and actionable science-based tools for mental health, physical health, and performance.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：欢迎来到胡伯曼实验室要点，在这里我们回顾过去的剧集，寻找针对心理健康、身体健康和表现的最有效、最可操作的基于科学的工具。
Andrew Huberman: I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，我是斯坦福大学医学院的神经生物学和眼科教授。
And now for my conversation with Dr. Jack Feldman.
现在是我与杰克·费尔德曼博士的对话。
Andrew Huberman: Thanks for joining me today.
安德鲁·休伯曼：感谢您今天加入我的行列。
Jack Feldman: Pleasure to be here, Andrew.
杰克·费尔德曼：很高兴来到这里，安德鲁。
Andrew Huberman: You're my go-to source for all things respiration and how the brain and breathing interact.
Andrew Huberman：你是我了解呼吸以及大脑和呼吸如何相互作用的所有知识的首选来源。
You're the person I call.
你就是我打电话的那个人。
Why don't we start off by just talking about what's involved in generating breath?
为什么我们不首先讨论产生呼吸的过程呢？
Jack Feldman: So on the mechanical side, which is obvious to everyone, we want to have air flow in, inhale, and we need to have air flow out.
杰克·费尔德曼：所以在机械方面，这对每个人来说都是显而易见的，我们希望有空气流入、吸气，并且我们需要有空气流出。
And the reason we need to do this is because for body metabolism, we need oxygen, and when oxygen is utilized through the aerobic metabolic process, we produce carbon dioxide.
我们需要这样做的原因是，为了身体的新陈代谢，我们需要氧气，而当氧气通过有氧代谢过程被利用时，我们会产生二氧化碳。
Jack Feldman: And so we have to get rid of the carbon dioxide that we produce, in particular, because the carbon dioxide affects the acid-base balance of the blood, the pH, and all living cells are very sensitive to what the pH value is.
杰克·费尔德曼：所以我们必须除去我们产生的二氧化碳，特别是因为二氧化碳会影响血液的酸碱平衡、pH 值，而所有活细胞对 pH 值都非常敏感。
So your body is very interested in regulating that pH.
所以您的身体对调节 pH 值非常感兴趣。
So how do we generate this airflow?
那么我们如何产生这种气流呢？
We have to expand the lungs, and as the lungs expand, basically, it's like a balloon that you would pull apart.
我们必须扩张肺部，当肺部扩张时，基本上，它就像一个你可以拉开的气球。
Jack Feldman: The pressure inside that balloon drops, and air will flow into the balloon.
杰克·费尔德曼：气球内部的压力下降，空气将流入气球。
That lowers the pressure in the air sacs, called alveoli, and air will flow in because pressure outside the body is higher than pressure inside the body when you're doing this expansion, when you're inhaling.
这会降低气囊（称为肺泡）中的压力，空气会流入，因为当您吸气时进行这种膨胀时，体外压力高于体内压力。
What produces that?
是什么产生的？
Well, the principal muscle is the diaphragm, which is sitting inside the body just below the lung.
主要的肌肉是横膈膜，它位于体内肺下方。
Jack Feldman: And when you want to inhale, you basically contract the diaphragm, and it pulls it down, and as it pulls it down, it's inserting pressure forces on the lung.
杰克·费尔德曼：当你想要吸气时，你基本上会收缩隔膜，并将其向下拉，当它向下拉时，就会在肺部施加压力。
The lung wants to expand.
肺部想要扩张。
At the same time, the rib cage is going to rotate up and out and therefore expand the cavity, the thoracic cavity.
同时，胸腔将向上和向外旋转，从而扩大空腔，即胸腔。
At the end of inspiration, under normal conditions, when you're at rest, you just relax, and it's like pulling on a spring.
吸气结束时，在正常情况下，当你休息时，你只是放松，就像拉动弹簧一样。
Jack Feldman: You pull down a spring, and you let go, and it relaxes.
杰克·费尔德曼：你拉下弹簧，然后松开，它就会放松。
Where does that activity originate?
该活动源自何处？
The region in the brainstem.
脑干区域。
That's once again this region sort of above the spinal cord, which was critical for generating this rhythm.
这又是位于脊髓上方的区域，这对于产生这种节律至关重要。
It's called the Pre-Bötzinger complex.
它被称为 Pre-Bötzinger 复合体。
Jack Feldman: This small site, which contains, in humans, a few thousand neurons, is located on either side and works in tandem.
杰克·费尔德曼：这个小部位在人类中包含数千个神经元，位于两侧并协同工作。
And every breath begins with neurons in this region beginning to be active.
每次呼吸都始于该区域的神经元开始活跃。
And those neurons then connect ultimately to these motor neurons going to the diaphragm and to the external intercostals, causing them to be active and causing this inspiratory effort.
然后这些神经元最终连接到这些运动神经元，到达膈肌和外部肋间肌，使它们活跃并引起吸气努力。
Jack Feldman: When the neurons in the Pre-Bötzinger complex finish their burst of activity, then inspiration stops, and then you begin to exhale because of this passive recall of the lung and rib cage.
杰克·费尔德曼：当前博辛格复合体中的神经元完成其爆发性活动时，吸气就会停止，然后由于肺和胸腔的被动回忆，你开始呼气。
Andrew Huberman: Is there anything known about the activation of the diaphragm and the intercostal muscles between the ribs as it relates to nose versus mouth breathing?
Andrew Huberman：对于横膈膜和肋骨之间的肋间肌的激活与鼻子呼吸和口呼吸的关系，是否有任何了解？
Jack Feldman: I don't think we fully have the answer to that.
杰克·费尔德曼：我认为我们还没有完全找到答案。
Clearly, there are differences between nasal and mouth breathing.
显然，鼻呼吸和口呼吸之间存在差异。
At rest, the tendency is to do nasal breathing because the airflows that are necessary for normal breathing are as easily managed by passing through the nasal cavities.
休息时，人们倾向于用鼻呼吸，因为正常呼吸所需的气流很容易通过鼻腔来控制。
However, when your ventilation needs to increase, like during exercise, you need to move more air.
但是，当您需要增加通风时（例如运动期间），您需要移动更多空气。
Jack Feldman: You do that through your mouth because the airways are much larger than, and therefore, you can move much more air.
杰克·费尔德曼：你通过嘴来做到这一点，因为气道要大得多，因此，你可以移动更多的空气。
But at the level of the intercostals and the diaphragm, their contraction is almost agnostic to whether or not the nose and mouth are open.
但在肋间肌和横膈膜的水平上，它们的收缩几乎与鼻子和嘴巴是否张开无关。
Andrew Huberman: Maybe you could march us through the brain centers that you've discovered and others have worked on as well that control breathing, Pre-Bötzinger, as well as related structures.
Andrew Huberman：也许你可以带领我们了解你发现的以及其他人也研究过的控制呼吸的大脑中心、Pre-Bötzinger 以及相关结构。
Jack Feldman: So when we discovered the pre-Bötzinger, we thought that it was the primary source of all rhythmic respiratory movements, both inspiration and expiration.
Jack Feldman：所以当我们发现前 Bötzinger 时，我们认为它是所有有节奏的呼吸运动（吸气和呼气）的主要来源。
And then in a series of experiments, we discovered that there was a second oscillator and that oscillator is involved in generating what we call active expiration.
然后在一系列实验中，我们发现存在第二个振荡器，并且该振荡器参与生成我们所谓的主动过期。
That is this active...
就是这个主动...
Andrew Huberman: They're like a, "Shh!"
安德鲁·休伯曼：他们就像是“嘘！”
Jack Feldman: Yeah...
杰克·费尔德曼：是的……
Jack Feldman: Or when you begin to exercise, you have to go...
杰克·费尔德曼：或者当你开始锻炼时，你必须......
and actually move that air out.
并实际将空气排出。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Jack Feldman: This group of cells, which is silent at rest, suddenly becomes active to drive those muscles, and it appears that it's an independent oscillator in a region around the facial nucleus.
杰克·费尔德曼：这组细胞在休息时保持沉默，突然变得活跃以驱动这些肌肉，而且它似乎是面部核周围区域的独立振荡器。
When this region was initially identified, we thought it was involved in sensing carbon dioxide.
当这个区域最初被发现时，我们认为它参与了二氧化碳的感知。
Jack Feldman: It was what we call a central chemoreceptor.
杰克·费尔德曼：这就是我们所说的中央化学感受器。
That is, we want to keep carbon dioxide levels, particularly in the brain, at a relatively stable level because the brain is extraordinarily sensitive to changes in pH.
也就是说，我们希望将二氧化碳水平（尤其是大脑中的二氧化碳水平）保持在相对稳定的水平，因为大脑对 pH 值的变化极其敏感。
If there's a big shift in carbon dioxide, there'll be a big shift in brain pH, and that'll throw your brain, if I can use the technical term, out of whack.
如果二氧化碳发生重大变化，大脑 pH 值也会发生重大变化，如果我可以使用专业术语的话，这会让你的大脑变得不正常。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jack Feldman: And so you want to regulate that.
杰克·费尔德曼：所以你想对此进行监管。
And the way to regulate something in the brain is to have a sensor in the brain, and others basically identified that the ventral surface of the brainstem, that is, the part of the brainstem that's on this side, was critical for that.
调节大脑某些东西的方法是在大脑中安装一个传感器，其他人基本上发现脑干的腹侧表面，即脑干位于这一侧的部分，对此至关重要。
Jack Feldman: And then we identified a structure near the trapezoid nucleus.
杰克·费尔德曼：然后我们在梯形核附近发现了一个结构。
It was not named in any of these neuroanatomical atlases, so we just picked the name out of the hat, and we called it the retrotrapezoid nucleus.
它在任何神经解剖学地图集中都没有被命名，所以我们只是随意取了个名字，我们称之为后梯形核。
Jack Feldman: If you go back in an evolutionary sense, and a lot of things that are hard to figure out begin to make sense when you look at the evolution of the nervous system and the control of facial muscles, going back to more primitive creatures, because they had to take things in their mouths for eating, so we call that the face sort of developed.
杰克·费尔德曼：如果你从进化的角度回顾，当你观察神经系统的进化和面部肌肉的控制时，很多很难弄清楚的事情开始变得有意义，回到更原始的生物，因为他们必须把东西放进嘴里吃，所以我们称之为面部的发展。
The eyes were there, the mouth is there.
眼睛在那儿，嘴在那儿。
Jack Feldman: These nuclei that contain the motor neurons, a lot of the control systems for them developed in the immediate vicinity.
杰克·费尔德曼：这些细胞核含有运动神经元，它们的许多控制系统是在附近发育的。
So if you think about the face, there's a lot of subnuclei around there that had various roles at various different times in evolution.
因此，如果你考虑一下脸部，就会发现周围有很多亚核，它们在进化的不同时期扮演着不同的角色。
And at one point in evolution, the facial muscles were probably very important in moving fluid in and out of the mouth and moving air in and out of the mouth.
在进化的某一时刻，面部肌肉对于将液体进出口腔以及将空气进出口腔可能非常重要。
Jack Feldman: And so part of that, of these many different subnuclei, now seems to be in mammals to be involved in the control of expiratory muscles.
杰克·费尔德曼：在哺乳动物中，这些不同的亚核的一部分现在似乎参与了呼气肌的控制。
But we have to remember that mammals are very special when it comes to breathing because we're the only class of vertebrates that have a diaphragm.
但我们必须记住，哺乳动物在呼吸方面非常特殊，因为我们是唯一有隔膜的脊椎动物。
Jack Feldman: If you look at amphibians and reptiles, they don't have a diaphragm, and the way they breathe is not by actively inspiring and passively expiring.
杰克·费尔德曼：如果你观察两栖动物和爬行动物，你会发现它们没有隔膜，它们的呼吸方式也不是主动吸气和被动呼气。
They breathe by actively expiring and passively inspiring because they don't have a powerful inspiratory muscle.
他们通过主动呼气和被动吸气来呼吸，因为他们没有强大的吸气肌。
And somewhere along the line, the diaphragm developed.
沿着这条线的某个地方，横膈膜发育了。
Jack Feldman: The amazing thing about the diaphragm is that it's mechanically extremely efficient.
Jack Feldman：隔膜的神奇之处在于它的机械效率极高。
If you look at how oxygen gets from outside the body into the bloodstream, the critical passage is across the membrane in the lungs.
如果你观察氧气如何从体外进入血液，就会发现关键的通道是穿过肺膜。
It's called the alveolar-capillary membrane.
它被称为肺泡毛细血管膜。
Jack Feldman: The alveolus is part of the lung, and the blood runs through capillaries, which are the smallest tubes in the circulatory system, and at that point, oxygen can go from the air-filled alveolus into the blood.
杰克·费尔德曼：肺泡是肺的一部分，血液流经毛细血管，毛细血管是循环系统中最小的管道，此时，氧气可以从充满空气的肺泡进入血液。
The key element is the surface area.
关键因素是表面积。
The bigger the surface area, the more oxygen that can pass through.
表面积越大，可以通过的氧气就越多。
It's entirely a passive process.
这完全是一个被动的过程。
There's no magic about making oxygen go in.
让氧气进入并没有什么神奇之处。
Jack Feldman: Now, how do you get a pack, a large surface area in a small chest?
杰克·费尔德曼：现在，如何在小箱子中获得大表面积的背包？
Well, you start out with one tube, which is the trachea.
好吧，你从一根管子开始，这就是气管。
The trachea expands.
气管扩张。
Now you have two tubes, then you have four tubes, and it keeps branching.
现在你有两个管子，然后你有四个管子，并且它不断分支。
At some point, at the end of those branches, you put a little sphere, which is an alveolus, and that determines what the surface area is going to be.
在某些时候，在这些分支的末端，你会放一个小球体，它是一个小泡，它决定了表面积是多少。
Jack Feldman: Now, you then have a mechanical problem.
杰克·费尔德曼：现在，你遇到了机械问题。
You have this surface area, you have to be able to pull it apart.
你有这个表面积，你必须能够把它拉开。
So imagine you have a little square of elastic membrane.
想象一下你有一小块方形的弹性膜。
It doesn't take a lot of force to pull it apart, but now, if you increase it by 50 times, you need a lot more force to pull it apart.
拉开并不需要很大的力，但现在，如果增加50倍，就需要更多的力才能拉开。
Jack Feldman: So amphibians who were breathing, not by compressing the lungs and then just passively expanding it, weren't able to generate a lot of force.
杰克·费尔德曼：因此，两栖动物的呼吸方式不是通过压缩肺部然后被动地扩张肺部来进行的，因此无法产生很大的力量。
So they have relatively few branches.
所以他们的分行相对较少。
So if you look at the surface area that they pack in their lungs relative to their body size, it's not very impressive.
因此，如果你看看它们肺部的表面积相对于它们的身体大小，就会发现，这并不是很令人印象深刻。
Jack Feldman: Whereas when you get to mammals, the amount of branching that you have is you have 400 to 500 million alveoli.
Jack Feldman：而对于哺乳动物来说，分支的数量是 400 到 5 亿个肺泡。
So you have a membrane inside of you, a third the size of a tennis court, that you actually have to expand every breath, and you do that without exerting much of a...
所以你体内有一层薄膜，有网球场三分之一大小，实际上你每次呼吸都必须扩张，而你不需要付出太多的努力就能做到这一点......
Jack Feldman: You don't feel it, and that's because you have this amazing muscle, the diaphragm, which, because of its positioning, just by moving two-thirds of an inch down, is able to expand that membrane enough to move air into the lungs.
杰克·费尔德曼：你感觉不到它，那是因为你有这种令人惊奇的肌肉，即隔膜，由于它的位置，只需向下移动三分之二英寸，就能使隔膜扩张到足以将空气移入肺部。
At rest, the volume of air in your lungs is about two and a half liters.
休息时，肺部的空气量约为两升半。
When you take a breath, you're taking another 500 milliliters or half a liter.
当你吸气时，你又吸入了 500 毫升或半升。
That's the size, maybe of my fist.
这就是我的拳头大小。
Jack Feldman: So, you're increasing the volume by 20%, but you're doing that by pulling on this 70-square-meter membrane.
Jack Feldman：所以，你将体积增加了 20%，但你是通过拉动这个 70 平方米的膜来实现的。
But that's enough to bring enough fresh air into the lung to mix in with the air that's already there that the oxygen levels in your bloodstream goes from a partial pressure of oxygen, which is 40 mmHg to 100 mmHg.
但这足以将足够的新鲜空气带入肺部，与已有的空气混合，从而使血液中的氧含量从氧分压（40 毫米汞柱）变为 100 毫米汞柱。
Jack Feldman: So we have this amazing mechanical advantage by having a diaphragm.
Jack Feldman：所以我们通过隔膜获得了惊人的机械优势。
Andrew Huberman: Do you think that our brains are larger than that of other mammals, in part because of the amount of oxygen that we have been able to bring into our system?
安德鲁·休伯曼：你认为我们的大脑比其他哺乳动物的大脑更大，部分原因是我们能够带入系统的氧气量？
Jack Feldman: I would say a key step in the ability to develop a large brain that has a continuous demand for oxygen is the diaphragm.
杰克·费尔德曼：我想说，要发展出对氧气有持续需求的大大脑，关键的一步是隔膜。
Without a diaphragm, you're an amphibian.
没有隔膜，你就是两栖动物。
Andrew Huberman: You know, over the years, whether it be for yoga class or a breathwork thing, or you hear online that we should be breathing with our diaphragm, that rather than lifting our rib cage when we breathe and our chest, it is healthier, in air quotes, or better somehow to have the belly expand when we inhale.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你知道，多年来，无论是瑜伽课还是呼吸练习，或者你在网上听到我们应该用隔膜呼吸，而不是在呼吸时抬起胸腔和胸部，用空气引语来说，或者以某种方式在吸气时让腹部膨胀更健康。
I'm not aware of any particular studies that have really examined the direct health benefits of diaphragmatic versus non-diaphragmatic breathing.
我不知道有任何具体研究真正检验了膈式呼吸与非膈式呼吸的直接健康益处。
Andrew Huberman: But if you don't mind commenting on anything you're aware of as it relates to diaphragmatic versus non-diaphragmatic breathing, that would be, I think, interesting to a number of people.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：但是，如果你不介意评论你所知道的任何与横膈膜呼吸和非横膈膜呼吸有关的事情，我认为这对很多人来说都会很有趣。
Jack Feldman: In the context of things like breath practice, I'm a bit agnostic about the effects of some of the different patterns of breathing.
杰克·费尔德曼：在呼吸练习等方面，我对某些不同呼吸模式的影响有点不可知。
Clearly, some are going to work through different mechanisms, and we can talk about that.
显然，有些将通过不同的机制发挥作用，我们可以讨论这一点。
But at a certain level, for example, whether it's primarily diaphragm or you move your abdomen or not, I am agnostic about it.
但在某种程度上，例如，无论主要是膈肌还是你是否移动腹部，我对此都是不可知的。
Jack Feldman: I think that the changes that breathing induces in emotion and cognition, I have different ideas about what the influence is, and I don't see that primarily as which particular muscles you're choosing, but that just could be my own prejudice.
杰克·费尔德曼：我认为呼吸会引起情绪和认知的变化，我对影响是什么有不同的看法，我不认为这主要是你选择的特定肌肉，但这可能是我自己的偏见。
Andrew Huberman: Could you tell us about physiological sighs?
Andrew Huberman：你能告诉我们关于生理叹息的事吗？
What's known about them, what your particular interest in them is, and what they're good for?
对它们了解多少，您对它们特别感兴趣，以及它们有什么用处？
Jack Feldman: It turns out we sigh about every five minutes, and I would encourage anyone who finds that to be an unbelievable fact to lie down in a quiet room and just breathe normally.
杰克·费尔德曼：事实证明，我们大约每五分钟就会叹息一次，我会鼓励任何发现这是一个令人难以置信的事实的人躺在一个安静的房间里，正常呼吸。
Just relax, just let go, and just pay attention to your breathing, and you'll find that every couple of minutes, you're...
只要放松，放手，注意你的呼吸，你会发现每隔几分钟，你就......
taking a deep breath, and you can't stop it.
深吸一口气，你无法停止。
Jack Feldman: You know, it just happens.
杰克·费尔德曼：你知道，事情就是这样发生的。
Now, why?
现在，为什么？
Well, we have to go back to the lung again.
好吧，我们必须再次回到肺部。
The lung has these 500 million alveoli, and they're very tiny.
肺部有 5 亿个肺泡，而且它们非常小。
They're 200 microns across, so they're really, really tiny.
它们的直径为 200 微米，所以它们非常非常小。
And you can think of them as fluid-filled.
你可以把它们想象成充满液体的。
They're fluid-lined, and the reason they're fluid-lined has to do with the esoterica of the mechanics of that.
它们是流体衬里的，而它们衬里流体的原因与其深奥的机械原理有关。
Jack Feldman: It makes it a little easier to stretch them with this fluid line, which is called surfactant.
杰克·费尔德曼（Jack Feldman）：使用这种称为表面活性剂的流体线可以更容易地拉伸它们。
Your alveoli have a tendency to collapse.
您的肺泡有塌陷的倾向。
There's 500 million of them.
其中有 5 亿。
They're not collapsing at a very high rate, but it's a slow rate that's not trivial.
它们崩溃的速度不是很高，但速度很慢，这并不是微不足道的。
And when an alveolus collapses, it no longer can receive oxygen or take carbon dioxide out.
当肺泡塌陷时，它就无法再接收氧气或排出二氧化碳。
It's sort of taken out of the equation.
它有点被排除在等式之外。
Jack Feldman: Now, if you have 500 million of them and you lose 10, no big deal.
杰克·费尔德曼：现在，如果你有 5 亿个，而你失去了 10 个，也没什么大不了的。
But if they keep collapsing, you can lose a significant part of the surface area of your lung.
但如果它们继续塌陷，您可能会损失肺部表面积的很大一部分。
Now, a normal breath is not enough to pop them open, but if you take...
现在，正常的呼吸不足以将它们打开，但如果你...
a deep breath.
深吸一口气。
Andrew Huberman: Through nose or mouth?
Andrew Huberman：通过鼻子还是嘴巴？
Jack Feldman: Doesn't matter.
杰克·费尔德曼：没关系。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
Jack Feldman: Doesn't matter.
杰克·费尔德曼：没关系。
But it's just increased that lung volume, because you're just pulling on the lungs, they'll pop open about every five minutes.
但它只是增加了肺容量，因为你只是拉动肺部，它们大约每五分钟就会突然张开。
And so we're doing it every five minutes in order to maintain the health of our lungs.
因此，我们每五分钟做一次，以保持肺部健康。
Jack Feldman: In the early days of mechanical ventilation, which was used to treat polio victims who had weakness of their respiratory muscles, they'd be put in these big steel tubes, and the way they would work is that the pressure outside the body would drop.
杰克·费尔德曼：在机械通气的早期，用于治疗呼吸肌无力的脊髓灰质炎患者，他们会被放入这些大钢管中，它们的工作方式是体外压力下降。
That would put expansion pressure on the lungs-- Excuse me, on the ribcage.
这会对肺部施加膨胀压力——对不起，是对胸腔施加膨胀压力。
Jack Feldman: The ribcage would expand, and then the lung would expand, and then the pressure would go back to normal, and the lung and ribcage would go back to normal.
杰克·费尔德曼：胸腔会扩张，然后肺部会扩张，然后压力会恢复正常，肺部和胸腔也会恢复正常。
But there was a relatively high mortality rate.
但死亡率相对较高。
It was a bit of a mystery, and one solution was to just give bigger breaths.
这有点神秘，解决办法之一就是加大呼吸量。
They gave bigger breaths, and the mortality rate dropped.
他们呼吸更大，死亡率下降。
And it wasn't until, I think it was the 50s, where they realized that they didn't have to increase every breath to be big.
直到 20 世纪 50 年代，他们才意识到不必增加每次呼吸就能变得更大。
Jack Feldman: What they needed to do is, every so often, they'd have one big breath.
杰克·费尔德曼：他们需要做的是，时不时地深吸一口气。
So you have a couple of minutes of normal breaths, and then one big breath, just mimicking the physiological sighs, and then the mortality rate dropped significantly.
所以你有几分钟的正常呼吸，然后是一大口呼吸，只是模仿生理叹息，然后死亡率显着下降。
And if you see someone on a ventilator in the hospital, if you watch, every couple of minutes, that you see the membrane move up and down, every couple of minutes, there'll be a super breath, and that pops it open.
如果你在医院里看到有人使用呼吸机，如果你每隔几分钟观察，你就会看到薄膜上下移动，每隔几分钟，就会有一次超级呼吸，然后它就会打开。
Jack Feldman: So there are these mechanisms for these physiological sighs.
杰克·费尔德曼：所以这些生理叹息有这些机制。
So, just like with the collapse of the lungs, where you need a big pressure to pop it open, it's the same thing with the alveoli.
因此，就像肺部塌陷一样，需要很大的压力才能将其打开，肺泡也是如此。
You need a bigger pressure, and a normal breath is not enough, so you have to take a big inhale...
你需要更大的压力，正常的呼吸是不够的，所以你必须大吸一口气……
Jack Feldman: And what nature has done is, instead of requiring us to remember to do it, it does it automatically, and it does it about every five minutes.
杰克·费尔德曼：大自然所做的是，它不需要我们记住去做，而是自动做，大约每五分钟做一次。
Andrew Huberman: We hear often that people will overdose on drugs of various kinds because they stop breathing.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我们经常听说人们会因停止呼吸而过量服用各种药物。
So barbiturates, alcohol combined with barbiturates, are a common cause of death for drug users and contraindications of drugs, and these kinds of things.
因此，巴比妥类药物、酒精与巴比妥类药物的结合是吸毒者的常见死因和药物禁忌症等。
You hear all the time about celebrities dying because they combined alcohol with barbiturates.
你总是听说名人因为酒精与巴比妥混合而死亡。
Andrew Huberman: Is there any evidence that the sighs that occur during sleep or during states of deep, deep relaxation and sedation, that sighs recover the brain?
安德鲁·休伯曼：有没有证据表明，在睡眠期间或在深度放松和镇静状态下发生的叹息可以使大脑恢复？
Because you could imagine that if these sighs don't happen as a consequence of some drug impacting these brain centers, that could be one cause of basically asphyxiation and death.
因为你可以想象，如果这些叹息不是由于某种药物影响这些大脑中心而发生的，那可能是基本上窒息和死亡的原因之一。
Jack Feldman: If you look at the progression of any mammal to a death due to, quote, "natural causes," their breathing slows down, will stop, and then they'll gasp.
杰克·费尔德曼：如果你观察任何哺乳动物因“自然原因”而死亡的过程，就会发现它们的呼吸会减慢、停止，然后喘气。
So we have the phrase "dying gasp." Super large breaths.
所以我们就有了“垂死喘息”这个短语。呼吸量超级大。
They're often described as an attempt to auto-resuscitate.
它们通常被描述为自动复苏的尝试。
That is, you take that super deep breath, and maybe it can kickstart the engine again.
也就是说，你深吸一口气，也许它可以再次启动引擎。
Jack Feldman: We do not know the degree to such things as gasps are really sized, that are particularly large.
杰克·费尔德曼：我们不知道诸如喘息之类的事情的真正大小，特别大。
And so, if you suppress the ability to gasp in an individual who is subject to an overdose, then whereas they might have been able to re-arouse their breathing, if that's prevented, they don't get re-aroused.
因此，如果你抑制服药过量的人的喘息能力，那么尽管他们可能能够重新唤醒呼吸，但如果这种情况被阻止，他们就不会重新唤醒。
So that is certainly a possibility.
所以这当然是有可能的。
Andrew Huberman: I'd love to get your thoughts on how breathing interacts with other things in the brain.
Andrew Huberman：我很想听听您对呼吸如何与大脑中其他事物相互作用的想法。
As we know, when we get stressed, our breathing changes.
众所周知，当我们感到压力时，我们的呼吸会发生变化。
When we're happy and relaxed, our breathing changes.
当我们快乐和放松时，我们的呼吸就会改变。
But also, if we change our breathing, we, in some sense, can adjust our internal state.
而且，如果我们改变呼吸，从某种意义上说，我们可以调整我们的内部状态。
What is the relationship between brain state and breathing?
大脑状态和呼吸之间有什么关系？
Jack Feldman: This is a topic which has really intrigued me over the past decade.
杰克·费尔德曼：这是一个在过去十年里一直让我着迷的话题。
I would say before that, I was in my silo, just interested about how the rhythm of breathing is generated, and didn't really pay much attention to this other stuff.
我想说的是，在那之前，我在我的筒仓里，只是对呼吸节奏是如何产生的感兴趣，并没有真正关注其他的东西。
For some reason, I got interested in it.
出于某种原因，我对它产生了兴趣。
I felt maybe I can study this in rodents.
我觉得也许我可以在啮齿动物身上研究这一点。
So we got this idea that we're going to teach rodents to meditate, and that's laughable.
所以我们想到了要教啮齿类动物冥想，这是可笑的。
Jack Feldman: But we said, "But then we can actually study how this happens." So I was able to get a sort of a starter grant, an R21 from NCCIH.
杰克·费尔德曼：但我们说，“但是我们可以实际研究这是如何发生的。”因此，我能够从 NCCIH 获得某种启动补助金，即 R21。
That's the National Complementary Medicine Institute.
那是国家补充医学研究所。
Andrew Huberman: A wonderful institute, I should mention.
Andrew Huberman：我应该提一下，这是一个很棒的研究所。
Jack Feldman: Yeah.
杰克·费尔德曼：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Our government puts major tax dollars toward studies of things like meditation, breathwork, supplements, herbs, and acupuncture.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我们的政府将主要税收用于冥想、呼吸、补充剂、草药和针灸等研究。
This is, I think, not well known, and it's an incredible thing that our government does that, and I think it deserves a nod.
我认为这并不为人所知，我们的政府这样做是一件令人难以置信的事情，我认为它值得认可。
Jack Feldman: I totally agree with you.
杰克·费尔德曼：我完全同意你的观点。
I think that it's the kind of thing that many of us, including many scientists, think is too woo-woo and unsubstantiated, but we're learning more and more.
我认为，我们很多人，包括许多科学家，都认为这种说法过于夸张且未经证实，但我们正在了解越来越多的东西。
You know, we used to laugh at neuroimmunology.
你知道，我们曾经嘲笑神经免疫学。
There are all these things that we're learning that we used to dismiss, and I think there's real nuggets to be learned here.
我们正在学习的所有这些过去被我们忽视的东西，我认为这里有真正值得学习的东西。
So recently, we had a major breakthrough.
最近，我们取得了重大突破。
We found a protocol by which we can get awake mice to breathe slowly.
我们找到了一种可以让清醒的小鼠缓慢呼吸的方案。
Jack Feldman: In other words, whatever their normal breath is, we could slow it down by a factor of 10, and they're fine doing that.
杰克·费尔德曼：换句话说，无论他们的正常呼吸是什么，我们都可以将其速度减慢 10 倍，他们很乐意这样做。
We did that 30 minutes a day for four weeks, okay?
我们每天这样做 30 分钟，持续了四个星期，好吗？
Like a breath practice.
就像呼吸练习一样。
And we had control animals where we did everything the same, except the manipulation we made did not slow down their breathing.
我们有对照动物，我们做的一切都一样，除了我们所做的操作并没有减慢它们的呼吸。
We then put them through a standard fear conditioning, which we did with my colleague, Michael Fanselow, who's one of the real gurus of fear.
然后我们让他们接受标准的恐惧调节，这是我们和我的同事迈克尔·范斯洛一起做的，他是真正的恐惧大师之一。
Jack Feldman: We measured a standard test that put mice in a condition where they're concerned they'll receive a shock, and their response is that they freeze.
杰克·费尔德曼：我们进行了一项标准测试，将小鼠置于担心会受到电击的状态，而它们的反应是冻结。
And the measure of how fearful they are is how long they freeze.
衡量他们有多害怕的标准是他们冻结的时间有多长。
The control mice had a freezing time, which was just the same as that of ordinary mice would have.
对照组小鼠的冻结时间与普通小鼠相同。
The ones that went through our protocol froze much, much less.
那些通过我们协议的人冻结的情况要少得多。
Jack Feldman: The degree to which they showed less freezing was as much as if there was a major manipulation in the amygdala, which is a part of the brain that's important in fear processing.
杰克·费尔德曼：他们表现出的冻结程度减轻了，就好像杏仁核受到了重大操纵一样，杏仁核是大脑中处理恐惧的重要部分。
Andrew Huberman: I'll just pause you for a moment there, because I think that you're talking about a rodent study, but I think the benefits of doing rodent studies are that you can get deep into the mechanism.
Andrew Huberman：我在这里暂停一下，因为我认为您正在谈论啮齿动物研究，但我认为进行啮齿动物研究的好处是您可以深入了解该机制。
And for people that might think, "Well, we've known that meditation has these benefits, why do you need to get mechanistic science?" I think that one thing that's important for people to remember is that, first of all, as many people as one might think are meditating out there or doing breathwork, a far, far, far greater number of people are not, right?
对于那些可能会想的人来说，“好吧，我们已经知道冥想有这些好处，为什么你需要获得机械科学呢？”我认为人们要记住的一件重要的事情是，首先，正如人们想象的那样，有很多人在外面冥想或做呼吸，但实际上没有的人要多得多，对吗？
Andrew Huberman: I mean, the majority of people don't take any time to do dedicated breathwork or meditate.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我的意思是，大多数人不会花任何时间进行专门的呼吸或冥想。
So whatever can incentivize people would be wonderful.
所以任何能够激励人们的事情都是很棒的。
But the other thing is that it's never really been clear to me just how much meditation is required for a real effect, meaning a practical effect.
但另一件事是，我从来都不清楚需要多少冥想才能产生真正的效果，即实际效果。
People say 30 minutes a day, 20 minutes a day, once a week, or twice a week, same thing with breathwork.
人们说每天 30 分钟、每天 20 分钟、每周一次或每周两次，这与呼吸练习是一样的。
Andrew Huberman: Finding minimum or effective thresholds for changing neural circuitry is what I think is the holy grail of all these practices.
Andrew Huberman：我认为找到改变神经回路的最小或有效阈值是所有这些实践的圣杯。
And that's only going to be determined by the sorts of mechanistic studies that you described.
这只能由你所描述的各种机制研究来决定。
Jack Feldman: One of the issues, I think, for a lot of people is that there's a placebo effect.
杰克·费尔德曼：我认为，对于很多人来说，问题之一是存在安慰剂效应。
That is, in humans, they can respond to something, even though the mechanism has nothing to do with what the intervention is.
也就是说，在人类中，他们可以对某些事物做出反应，即使该机制与干预内容无关。
And so, it's easy to say that the meditative response has a big component, which is a placebo effect.
因此，很容易说冥想反应有一个很大的组成部分，那就是安慰剂效应。
Jack Feldman: My mice don't believe in the placebo effect, and so if we could show there's a bona fide effect in mice, it is convincing in ways that no matter how many human experiments you did, the control for the placebo effect is extremely difficult in humans.
杰克·费尔德曼：我的老鼠不相信安慰剂效应，因此，如果我们能够证明老鼠确实存在安慰剂效应，那么无论你做了多少人体实验，在人类中控制安慰剂效应都是极其困难的。
In mice, it's a non-issue.
对于小鼠来说，这不是问题。
So I think that in and of itself would be an enormous message to send.
所以我认为这本身就是一个需要传达的巨大信息。
Andrew Huberman: Excellent, and indeed a better point.
Andrew Huberman：非常好，而且确实是一个更好的观点。
A 30-minute-a-day meditation in these mice, if I understand correctly, the meditation, we don't know what they're thinking about-
这些老鼠每天进行 30 分钟的冥想，如果我理解正确的话，冥想，我们不知道它们在想什么——
Jack Feldman: It was breath practice.
杰克·费尔德曼：这是呼吸练习。
Andrew Huberman: Right, so it's breath practice.
Andrew Huberman：对，所以这是呼吸练习。
Jack Feldman: Right.
杰克·费尔德曼：对。
Andrew Huberman: Presumably, they're not thinking about their third eye center, lotus position, levitation, whatever it is.
安德鲁·休伯曼：大概，他们没有考虑他们的第三眼中心、莲花位置、悬浮，无论是什么。
They're not instructed as to what to do, and if they were, they probably wouldn't do it anyway.
他们没有被指示要做什么，即使有，他们也可能不会这样做。
So, 30 minutes a day in which breathing is deliberately slowed or is slowed relative to their normal patterns of breathing.
因此，每天有 30 分钟的呼吸被刻意减慢或相对于正常呼吸模式减慢。
Got it.
知道了。
So the fear centers are altered in some way that creates a shorter fear response to a foot shock.
因此，恐惧中心会以某种方式发生改变，从而缩短对足部震动的恐惧反应。
Jack Feldman: Right.
杰克·费尔德曼：对。
Andrew Huberman: What are some other examples that you are aware of from work in your laboratory or work in other laboratories, for that matter, about interactions between breathing and brain state or emotional state?
Andrew Huberman：就呼吸与大脑状态或情绪状态之间的相互作用而言，您在自己的实验室或其他实验室的工作中还了解到哪些其他例子？
Jack Feldman: I want people to understand that when we're talking about breathing affecting emotional or cognitive state, it's not simply coming from pre-Bötzinger.
杰克·费尔德曼：我希望人们明白，当我们谈论呼吸影响情绪或认知状态时，它不仅仅来自博辛格之前。
There are several other sites.
还有其他几个网站。
I need to sort of go through that.
我需要经历一下。
One is olfaction.
一是嗅觉。
So when you're breathing, normal breathing, you're inhaling and exhaling.
所以当你呼吸时，正常的呼吸，你在吸气和呼气。
Jack Feldman: This is creating signals coming from the nasal mucosa that is going back into the olfactory bulb, that's respiratory modulated.
杰克·费尔德曼：这会产生来自鼻粘膜的信号，这些信号会返回嗅球，从而受到呼吸调节。
And the olfactory bulb has a profound influence and projections through many parts of the brain.
嗅球对大脑的许多部分都有深远的影响和投射。
So there's a signal arising from this rhythmic moving of air in and out of the nose that's going into the brain that has contained in it a respiratory modulation.
因此，空气有节奏地进出鼻子会产生一个信号，该信号进入大脑，其中包含呼吸调节。
Jack Feldman: Another potential source is the vagus nerve.
杰克·费尔德曼：另一个潜在的来源是迷走神经。
The vagus nerve is a major nerve which is containing afferents from all of the viscera.
迷走神经是包含来自所有内脏的传入神经的主要神经。
Andrew Huberman: Afferents just being signals, too.
Andrew Huberman：传入也只是信号。
Jack Feldman: A signal.
杰克·费尔德曼：一个信号。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Jack Feldman: Signals from the viscera.
杰克·费尔德曼：来自内脏的信号。
It also has signals coming from the brain stem down, which are called efferents, but it's getting major signals from the lung, from the gut, and this is going up into the brain stem.
它也有来自脑干向下的信号，称为传出神经，但它从肺部、肠道接收主要信号，然后向上进入脑干。
So it's there.
所以它就在那里。
There are very powerful receptors in the lung.
肺部有非常强大的受体。
They're responding to the expansion and relaxation of the lung.
它们对肺部的扩张和松弛做出反应。
Jack Feldman: And so, if you record from the vagus nerve, you'll see that there's a huge respiratory modulation due to the mechanical changes in the lung.
杰克·费尔德曼：因此，如果您从迷走神经进行记录，您会发现由于肺部的机械变化而产生了巨大的呼吸调节。
Now, why that is of interest is that for some forms of refractory depression, electrical stimulation of the vagus nerve can provide tremendous relief.
现在，令人感兴趣的是，对于某些形式的难治性抑郁症，迷走神经的电刺激可以提供巨大的缓解。
Jack Feldman: Why this is the case still remains to be determined, but it's clear that signals in the vagus nerve, at least the artificial signals in the vagus nerve, can have a positive effect on reducing depression.
杰克·费尔德曼：为什么会出现这种情况仍有待确定，但很明显，迷走神经中的信号，至少是迷走神经中的人工信号，可以对减少抑郁症产生积极作用。
So, it's not a leap to think that under normal circumstances, that that rhythm coming in from the vagus nerve is playing a role in normal processing.
因此，在正常情况下，来自迷走神经的节律在正常处理中发挥着作用，这并不是一个跳跃式的想法。
Okay, let me continue.
好吧，让我继续。
Carbon dioxide and oxygen levels.
二氧化碳和氧气水平。
Jack Feldman: Now, under normal circumstances, your oxygen levels are fine, and unless you go to altitude, they don't really change very much.
杰克·费尔德曼：现在，在正常情况下，你的氧气水平很好，除非你去高海拔地区，否则它们实际上不会发生太大变化。
But your CO2 levels can change quite a bit with even a relatively small change in your overall breathing.
但即使整体呼吸发生相对较小的变化，您的二氧化碳水平也会发生相当大的变化。
That's going to change your pH level.
这会改变你的 pH 值。
Jack Feldman: I have a colleague, Alicia Meuret, who is working with patients who are anxious, and many of them hyperventilate, and as a result of that hyperventilation, their carbon dioxide levels are low.
杰克·费尔德曼（Jack Feldman）：我有一位同事艾丽西亚·莫雷（Alicia Meuret），她正在治疗焦虑的患者，他们中的许多人换气过度，由于换气过度，他们的二氧化碳水平很低。
Jack Feldman: She has developed a therapeutic treatment where she trains these people to breathe slower to restore their CO2 levels back to normal, and she gets relief in their anxiety.
杰克·费尔德曼（Jack Feldman）：她开发了一种治疗方法，训练这些人放慢呼吸速度，使二氧化碳水平恢复正常，她的焦虑得到缓解。
Jack Feldman: So CO2 levels, which are not going to affect brain function on a breath-by-breath level, although it does fluctuate breath by breath, but sort of as a continuous background, can change, and if it's changed chronically, we know that highly elevated levels of CO2 can produce panic attacks.
杰克·费尔德曼：因此，二氧化碳水平不会在每次呼吸的水平上影响大脑功能，尽管它确实会随着呼吸而波动，但作为一个连续的背景，它可能会发生变化，如果它长期变化，我们知道高度升高的二氧化碳水平会产生恐慌发作。
Jack Feldman: Your body is so sensitive, the control of breathing, like how much you breathe per minute, is determined in a very sensitive way by the CO2 level.
杰克·费尔德曼：你的身体非常敏感，呼吸的控制，比如你每分钟呼吸多少，是由二氧化碳水平以非常敏感的方式决定的。
So even a small change in your CO2 will have a significant effect on your ventilation.
因此，即使二氧化碳的微小变化也会对通气产生重大影响。
So this is another thing that not only changes your ventilation but affects your brain state.
因此，这是另一件事，不仅会改变您的通风，还会影响您的大脑状态。
Jack Feldman: Now, another thing, how breathing practice can affect your emotional state is simply the descending command.
杰克·费尔德曼：现在，另一件事是，呼吸练习如何影响你的情绪状态只是下降的命令。
Because breathing practice involves volitional control of your breathing, and therefore, there's a signal that's originating somewhere in your motor cortex.
因为呼吸练习涉及对呼吸的意志控制，因此，运动皮层的某个地方会发出信号。
Of course, that's going to go down to pre-Bötzinger, but it's also going to send off collaterals to other places.
当然，这将追溯到博辛格之前，但它也会将抵押品发送到其他地方。
Jack Feldman: Those collaterals could obviously influence your emotional state.
杰克·费尔德曼：这些附属品显然会影响你的情绪状态。
So we have quite a few different potential sources, none of them that are exclusive.
因此，我们有很多不同的潜在来源，但没有一个是排他性的。
Andrew Huberman: What are some of the other features of our brain and body, be it blinking or eye movements or ability to encode sounds, or any features of the way that we function, move, and perceive things that are coordinated with breathing in some interesting way?
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我们的大脑和身体还有哪些其他特征，无论是眨眼、眼球运动还是编码声音的能力，还是我们以某种有趣的方式与呼吸协调运作、移动和感知事物的方式的任何特征？
Jack Feldman: Almost everything.
杰克·费尔德曼：几乎一切。
So we have, for example, on the autonomic side, we have respiratory sinus arrhythmia.
例如，在自主神经方面，我们有呼吸性窦性心律失常。
That is, during expiration, the heart slows down.
也就是说，在呼气期间，心脏减慢。
Your pupils oscillate with the respiratory cycle, your fear response.
你的瞳孔随着呼吸周期、你的恐惧反应而振荡。
Let's take something like depression.
让我们以抑郁症为例。
Jack Feldman: You can envision depression as activity sort of going around in a circuit.
杰克·费尔德曼：你可以将抑郁症想象成一种循环活动。
And because it's continuous, in the nervous system, as signals keep repeating, they tend to get stronger, and they can get so strong you can't break them.
而且因为它是连续的，在神经系统中，随着信号不断重复，它们往往会变得更强，而且它们可以变得如此强大，以至于你无法打破它们。
And, I mean, all of us get depressed at some point, but if it's not continuous, it's not long-lasting, we're able to break it.
而且，我的意思是，我们所有人都会在某个时刻感到沮丧，但如果它不是持续的，也不是持久的，我们就能够打破它。
Well, there are extreme measures to break it.
好吧，有一些极端的措施可以打破它。
We could do electroconvulsive shock.
我们可以进行电休克。
Jack Feldman: We shock the whole brain.
杰克·费尔德曼：我们震惊了整个大脑。
That's disrupting activity in the whole brain, and when the circuit starts to get back together again, it's been disruptive.
这会扰乱整个大脑的活动，当电路开始再次恢复正常时，就会产生破坏性的情况。
And we know that the brain, when signals get disrupted a little bit, we can weaken the connections.
我们知道，当大脑信号受到一点干扰时，我们就可以削弱连接。
And weakening the connections, if it's set in the circuit involved in depression, we may get some relief.
并削弱连接，如果它设置在涉及抑郁症的电路中，我们可能会得到一些缓解。
And electroconvulsive shock does work for relieving many kinds of depression.
电休克确实可以缓解多种抑郁症。
Jack Feldman: Focal deep-brain stimulation does the same thing, but more localized, or transcranial stimulation.
杰克·费尔德曼（Jack Feldman）：局灶性深部脑刺激也能起到同样的作用，但更加局部化，或者说是经颅刺激。
You're disrupting a network, and while it's getting back together, it may weaken some of the connections.
您正在破坏网络，当它恢复正常时，它可能会削弱某些连接。
Jack Feldman: If breathing is playing some role in this circuit, and now, instead of doing like a one-second shock, I do 30 minutes of disruption by doing slow breathing or other breathing practice, those circuits begin to break down a little bit, and I get some relief.
杰克·费尔德曼：如果呼吸在这个回路中发挥了一定作用，那么现在，我不再像一秒钟的电击那样进行，而是通过缓慢呼吸或其他呼吸练习来进行 30 分钟的干扰，这些回路开始稍微崩溃，我会得到一些缓解。
And if I continue to do it before the circuit can then build back up again, I gradually can wear that circuit down.
如果我在电路再次恢复之前继续这样做，我会逐渐磨损该电路。
Jack Feldman: I sort of liken this...
杰克·费尔德曼：我有点像这个......
I tell people it's like walking around on a dirt path.
我告诉人们这就像在土路上走来走去。
You build a rut.
你建立了一个车辙。
The rut gets so deep you can't get out of it, and what breathing is doing is sort of filling in the rut bit by bit, to the point that you can climb out of that rut.
车辙太深了，你无法摆脱它，而呼吸所做的就是一点一点地填补车辙，直到你可以爬出车辙。
And that is because the breathing signal is playing some role in this way the circuit works, and then when you disrupt it, the circuit gets a little thrown off-kilter.
这是因为呼吸信号在电路的工作方式中发挥了一定的作用，然后当你破坏它时，电路就会有点失衡。
Jack Feldman: And as you know, when circuits get thrown off, the nervous system tries to adjust in some way or another.
杰克·费尔德曼：正如你所知，当电路发生故障时，神经系统会尝试以某种方式进行调整。
And it turns out, at least for breathing, for some evolutionary reason or just by happenstance, it seems to improve our emotional function and our cognitive function.
事实证明，至少对于呼吸来说，出于某种进化原因或只是偶然，它似乎改善了我们的情绪功能和认知功能。
And we're very fortunate that that's the case.
我们很幸运，情况就是如此。
Andrew Huberman: What do you do with all this knowledge in terms of a breathing practice?
Andrew Huberman：您如何利用所有这些知识来进行呼吸练习？
Jack Feldman: I find I get tremendous benefit by relatively short periods, between 5 and maybe 20 minutes, of doing box breathing.
Jack Feldman：我发现相对较短的时间（5 到 20 分钟）进行箱式呼吸可以获得巨大的好处。
It's very simple to do.
做起来非常简单。
I'm now trying this Tummo because I'm just curious and exploring it, because it may be acting through a different way, and I want to see if I respond differently.
我现在正在尝试这个 Tummo，因为我只是好奇并探索它，因为它可能通过不同的方式发挥作用，我想看看我是否有不同的反应。
Jack Feldman: I have friends and colleagues who are into particular styles like Wim Hof, and I think what he's doing is great in getting people who are interested.
Jack Feldman：我有朋友和同事都喜欢像 Wim Hof 这样的特定风格，我认为他所做的事情对于吸引人们感兴趣非常有用。
Jack Feldman: I think the notion is that I would like to see more people exploring this, and to some degree, as you point out, 30 minutes a day, some of the breath patterns that some of these stars, like Wim Hof, are a little intimidating to newbies.
杰克·费尔德曼：我认为我希望看到更多的人探索这个问题，在某种程度上，正如你所指出的，每天 30 分钟，其中一些明星的一些呼吸模式，比如 Wim Hof，对新手来说有点吓人。
And so I would like to see something very simple.
所以我想看到一些非常简单的东西。
What I tell my friends is, "Look, just try it, 5 or 10 minutes.
我告诉我的朋友们，“看，试试看，5 到 10 分钟。
See if you feel better.
看看你是否感觉好点了。
Do it for a few days.
做几天。
If you don't like it, stop it.
如果你不喜欢它，就停止它。
It doesn't cost anything."
这不需要任何费用。”
Jack Feldman: And invariably, they find that it's helpful.
杰克·费尔德曼：他们总是发现这很有帮助。
I will often interrupt my day to take 5 or 10 minutes, like if I find that I'm lagging.
我经常会打断一天的时间，花 5 到 10 分钟，就像我发现自己落后了一样。
I think there's some pretty good data that your performance after lunch declines.
我认为有一些很好的数据表明你午餐后的表现会下降。
And so very often, what I'll do after lunch is take 5 or 10 minutes and just sort of breath practice.
通常，午餐后我会花 5 到 10 分钟进行呼吸练习。
Andrew Huberman: And lately, what does that breath practice look like?
Andrew Huberman：最近，呼吸练习是什么样的？
Jack Feldman: It's just box breathing for 5 or 10 minutes.
杰克·费尔德曼：只需进行 5 到 10 分钟的箱式呼吸即可。
Andrew Huberman: So five seconds inhale, five-second hold, five-second exhale, five-second hold.
Andrew Huberman：所以五秒吸气，五秒保持，五秒呼气，五秒保持。
Jack Feldman: Yeah.
杰克·费尔德曼：是的。
And sometimes I'll do doubles.
有时我会做双打。
I'll do 10 seconds just because I get bored.
我会因为无聊而做10秒。
I feel like doing it.
我感觉很想做。
And it's very helpful.
这非常有帮助。
Andrew Huberman: Now, you're one of the few colleagues I have who openly admits to exploring supplementation.
Andrew Huberman：现在，你是我少数公开承认探索补充剂的同事之一。
I'm a longtime supplement fan.
我是长期的补充剂粉丝。
I think there's power in compounds, both prescription, non-prescription, natural, and synthesized.
我认为化合物具有力量，无论是处方药、非处方药、天然的还是合成的。
I don't use these haphazardly, but I think there's certainly power in them.
我不会随意使用它们，但我认为它们确实有力量。
Andrew Huberman: And one of the places where you and I converge in terms of our interest in the nervous system and supplementation is vis-à-vis magnesium.
Andrew Huberman：就我们对神经系统和补充剂的兴趣而言，你和我的共同点之一就是镁。
Now, I've talked endlessly on the podcast and elsewhere about magnesium for the sake of sleep and improving transitions to sleep, and so forth.
现在，我在播客和其他地方无休止地谈论镁对于睡眠和改善睡眠过渡等的影响。
But you have a somewhat different interest in magnesium, as it relates to cognitive function and the durability of cognitive function.
但您对镁的兴趣有些不同，因为它与认知功能和认知功能的持久性有关。
Andrew Huberman: Would you mind just sharing with us a little bit about what that interest is, where it stems from?
Andrew Huberman：您介意与我们分享一下这种兴趣是什么，它源自哪里吗？
And because it's the Huberman Lab podcast, and we often talk about supplementation, what you do with that information?
因为这是 Huberman 实验室的播客，我们经常谈论补充，你用这些信息做什么？
Jack Feldman: Okay.
杰克·费尔德曼：好的。
So I need to disclose that I am a scientific advisor to a company called Neurocentria, which my graduate student, Guosong Liu, is CEO.
所以我需要透露一下，我是一家名为 Neurocentria 的公司的科学顾问，我的研究生刘国松担任该公司的首席执行官。
So, that said, I can give you some background.
所以，话虽如此，我可以给你一些背景知识。
Guosong, although when he was in my lab, worked on breathing, had a deep interest in learning and memory.
国松虽然在我实验室的时候主要研究的是呼吸，但他对学习和记忆有着很深的兴趣。
And when he left my lab, he went to work for it with a renowned learning and memory guy at Stanford, Dick Tsien.
当他离开我的实验室后，他和斯坦福大学著名的学习和记忆专家迪克·钱(Dick Tsien)一起工作。
Jack Feldman: And when he finished there, he was hired by Susumu Tonegawa at MIT.
杰克·费尔德曼：当他完成学业后，他被麻省理工学院的利根川进聘用。
Andrew Huberman: Who also knows a thing or two about memory.
Andrew Huberman：谁也对记忆略知一二。
I'm teasing.
我在开玩笑。
Susumu has a Nobel for his work on immunoglobulins, but then is a world-class memory researcher.
苏苏穆因其在免疫球蛋白方面的研究而获得诺贝尔奖，但他同时也是一位世界级的记忆研究员。
Jack Feldman: Yeah, and more.
杰克·费尔德曼：是的，还有更多。
Andrew Huberman: He's many things.
安德鲁·休伯曼：他有很多东西。
Jack Feldman: And Guosong, a very curious, very bright guy.
杰克·费尔德曼：还有国松，一个非常好奇、非常聪明的人。
And he was interested in how signals between neurons get strengthened, which is called long-term potentiation, or LTP.
他对神经元之间的信号如何增强很感兴趣，这被称为长时程增强（LTP）。
Jack Feldman: And one of the questions that arose was, if I have inputs to a neuron and I get LTP, is the LTP bigger if the signal is bigger or the noise is less?
Jack Feldman：出现的问题之一是，如果我有一个神经元的输入并且我得到了 LTP，那么如果信号较大或噪声较小，LTP 是否会更大？
So we can imagine that when we're listening to something, if it's louder, we can hear it better, or if there's less noise, we can hear it better.
所以我们可以想象，当我们听某件事时，如果声音更大，我们就能听得更好，或者如果噪音更小，我们就能听得更好。
And he wanted to investigate this.
他想调查此事。
Jack Feldman: So he did this in tissue culture of hippocampal neurons, and what he found was that if he lowered the background activity in all of the neurons, that the LTP he elicited got stronger.
Jack Feldman：所以他在海马神经元的组织培养中做了这个，他发现如果他降低所有神经元的背景活动，他引发的 LTP 就会更强。
And the way he did that was increasing the level of magnesium in the bathing solution.
他这样做的方法是增加沐浴液中镁的含量。
Jack Feldman: So, he played around with the magnesium, and he found out that when the magnesium was elevated, there was more LTP.
Jack Feldman：所以，他研究了镁，发现当镁含量升高时，LTP 就会增加。
All right, that's an observation in a tissue culture.
好吧，这是组织培养中的观察结果。
Andrew Huberman: Right.
安德鲁·休伯曼：对。
And I should just mention that more LTP essentially translates to more neuroplasticity, more rewiring of connections, in essence.
我只想提一下，更多的 LTP 本质上会转化为更多的神经可塑性，本质上更多的连接重新布线。
Jack Feldman: Okay.
杰克·费尔德曼：好的。
So he tested this in mice, and basically, he offered them a...
所以他在老鼠身上进行了测试，基本上，他为它们提供了......
He had control mice, which got a normal diet, and one that was enriched with magnesium.
他有对照组小鼠，其中一只小鼠饮食正常，另一只小鼠富含镁。
And the ones that lived enriched with magnesium had higher cognitive function, lived longer, everything you'd want in some magic pill, those mice did that, excuse me, rats.
那些富含镁的老鼠有更高的认知功能，寿命更长，拥有你想要的神奇药丸中的一切，那些老鼠做到了，对不起，老鼠。
Jack Feldman: The problem was that you couldn't imagine taking this into humans because most magnesium salts don't passively get from the gut into the bloodstream, into the brain.
杰克·费尔德曼：问题是你无法想象将其应用到人类身上，因为大多数镁盐不会被动地从肠道进入血液、进入大脑。
They pass via what's called a transporter.
他们通过所谓的运输机通过。
A transporter is something in a membrane that grabs a magnesium molecule or atom and pulls it into the other side.
转运蛋白是膜中的某种东西，它抓住镁分子或原子并将其拉到另一侧。
Jack Feldman: So if you imagine you have magnesium in your gut, you have transporters that pull the magnesium in the gut into the bloodstream.
杰克·费尔德曼：所以，如果你想象你的肠道里有镁，你就会有转运蛋白将肠道中的镁拉入血液中。
Well, if you had taken normal magnesium supplement that you can buy at the pharmacy, it doesn't cross the gut very easily.
好吧，如果您服用了在药房购买的普通镁补充剂，它就不会轻易穿过肠道。
And if you would take enough of it to get it in your bloodstream, you start getting diarrhea.
如果你摄入足够的它进入你的血液，你就会开始腹泻。
So it's not a good way to go.
所以这不是一个好方法。
Andrew Huberman: Well, it is a good way to go.
Andrew Huberman：嗯，这是一个很好的方法。
Jack Feldman: Oh.
杰克·费尔德曼：哦。
Andrew Huberman: Sorry, couldn't help myself.
Andrew Huberman：抱歉，我无法控制自己。
Jack Feldman: Well said.
杰克·费尔德曼：说得好。
So he worked with this brilliant chemist, Fei Mao, and Fei looked at a whole range of magnesium compounds, and he found that magnesium threonate was much more effective in crossing the gut-blood barrier.
因此，他与这位才华横溢的化学家费茂合作，费茂研究了一系列镁化合物，他发现苏糖酸镁在穿越肠血屏障方面更有效。
Jack Feldman: Now, they didn't realize at the time, but threonate is a metabolite of vitamin C, and there's a lot of threonate in your body.
Jack Feldman：现在，他们当时没有意识到，苏糖酸盐是维生素 C 的代谢产物，而且你的体内有大量的苏糖酸盐。
So magnesium threonate would appear to be safe, and maybe a part of the role, or now, they believe it's part of the role of the threonate, is that it supercharges the transporter to get the magnesium in.
因此，苏糖酸镁似乎是安全的，也许是其作用的一部分，或者现在，他们认为这是苏糖酸镁的作用的一部分，它可以增强转运蛋白以吸收镁。
And remember, you need a transporter at the gut into the brain and into cells.
请记住，您需要肠道内的转运蛋白进入大脑和细胞。
Jack Feldman: They did a study in humans.
杰克·费尔德曼：他们对人类进行了一项研究。
They hired a company to do a test.
他们聘请了一家公司来做测试。
It was a hands-off test.
这是一次不干涉的测试。
It's one of these companies that gets hired by the big pharma to do their tests for them.
这是大型制药公司聘请为他们进行测试的公司之一。
And they got patients who were diagnosed as mild cognitive decline.
他们的病人被诊断为轻度认知能力下降。
These are people who had a cognitive disorder, which was age-inappropriate.
这些人患有与年龄不相称的认知障碍。
Jack Feldman: And the metric that they use for determining how far off they were is Spearman's g factor, which is a generalized measure of intelligence that most psychologists accept.
杰克·费尔德曼：他们用来确定自己离目标有多远的指标是斯皮尔曼的 g 因子，这是大多数心理学家接受的智力的通用衡量标准。
Jack Feldman: And the biological age of the subjects was, I think, 51, and the cognitive age was 61, based on Spearman's g test.
Jack Feldman：根据 Spearman 的 g 检验，我认为受试者的生物学年龄是 51 岁，认知年龄是 61 岁。
Oh, I should say, the Spearman g factor starts at a particular level in the population at age 20 and declines about 1% a year.
哦，我应该说，Spearman g 因子在 20 岁人群中开始处于特定水平，并且每年下降约 1%。
So, sorry to say, we're not 20-year-olds anymore.
所以，很抱歉，我们不再是20岁的人了。
Jack Feldman: But when you get a number from that, you can put it on the curve and see whether it's about your age or not.
杰克·费尔德曼：但是当你从中得到一个数字时，你可以把它放在曲线上，看看它是否与你的年龄有关。
These people were about 10 years older, according to that metric.
根据这一指标，这些人大约年长 10 岁。
And long story short, after three months...
长话短说，三个月后......
This is a placebo-controlled, double-blind study.
这是一项安慰剂对照、双盲研究。
The people who were in the placebo arm improved two years, which is common for human studies because of the placebo effect.
安慰剂组的受试者病情改善了两年，由于安慰剂效应，这在人类研究中很常见。
Jack Feldman: The people who got the compound improved eight years on average, and some improved more than eight years.
杰克·费尔德曼：服用该化合物的人平均改善了八年，有些人改善了八年以上。
They didn't do any further diagnosis as to what caused the mild cognitive decline, but it was extraordinarily impressive.
他们没有对导致轻度认知能力下降的原因进行任何进一步的诊断，但这令人印象深刻。
Andrew Huberman: So it moved their cognition closer to their biological age.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以这使他们的认知更接近他们的生物年龄。
Jack Feldman: Biological age.
杰克·费尔德曼：生物年龄。
Andrew Huberman: Do you recall what the dose is of magnesium threonate?
Andrew Huberman：您还记得苏糖酸镁的剂量是多少吗？
Jack Feldman: It's in the paper, and it's basically what they have in the compound, which is sold commercially.
杰克·费尔德曼：报纸上有，基本上就是他们在院子里有的东西，可以商业销售。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Jack Feldman: So the compound, which is sold commercially, is handled by a nutraceutical wholesaler who sells it to the retailers, and they make whatever formulation they want.
杰克·费尔德曼：因此，这种在商业上销售的化合物由营养保健品批发商处理，然后将其出售给零售商，他们可以制作他们想要的任何配方。
But it's a dosage which, to my understanding, is rarely tolerable.
但据我了解，这个剂量是很难让人忍受的。
I take half a dose.
我服用半剂。
Jack Feldman: The reason I take half a dose is that I had my blood magnesium measured, and it was low-normal for my age.
杰克·费尔德曼：我服用一半剂量的原因是我测量了血镁，对于我的年龄来说，它是低正常值。
I took half a dose, and it became high-normal.
我吃了半剂，就恢复正常了。
And I feel comfortable staying in the normal range.
我觉得保持在正常范围内很舒服。
But a lot of people are taking the full dose.
但很多人正在服用全剂量。
Jack Feldman: At my age, I'm not looking to get smarter.
杰克·费尔德曼：在我这个年纪，我不希望变得更聪明。
I'm looking to decline more slowly.
我希望下降得更慢。
And it's hard for me to tell you whether or not it's effective or not.
我很难告诉你它是否有效。
Jack Feldman: When I've recommended it to my friends, academics who are not by nature skeptical, if not cynical, and I insist that they try it, they usually don't report a major change in their cognitive function, although sometimes they do report, "Well, I feel a little bit more alert, and my physical movements are better," but many of them report they sleep better.
杰克·费尔德曼：当我向我的朋友们、学者们推荐它时，他们本质上不是怀疑论者，甚至是愤世嫉俗的人，我坚持让他们尝试一下，他们通常不会报告他们的认知功能发生重大变化，尽管有时他们确实报告说，“嗯，我感觉更警觉了一点，我的身体运动更好了”，但他们中的许多人报告说他们睡得更好。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, and that makes sense.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，这是有道理的。
I think there's good evidence that threonate can accelerate the transition into sleep and maybe even access to deeper modes of sleep.
我认为有充分的证据表明苏糖酸盐可以加速进入睡眠的过渡，甚至可能进入更深的睡眠模式。
But that's very interesting, because until you and I had the discussion about threonate, I wasn't aware of the cognitive-enhancing effects.
但这非常有趣，因为在你和我讨论苏糖酸盐之前，我并没有意识到它的认知增强作用。
Andrew Huberman: But the story makes sense from a mechanistic perspective, and it brings it around to a bigger and more important statement, which is that I so appreciate your attention to mechanism.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但是从机械论的角度来看，这个故事是有道理的，它带来了一个更大、更重要的声明，那就是我非常感谢你对机制的关注。
I guess this stems from your early training as a physicist and the desire to get numbers and to really parse things at a fine level.
我想这源于您作为物理学家的早期训练以及获得数字并真正精细解析事物的愿望。
We've covered a lot today.
今天我们已经讨论了很多内容。
I know there's much more that we could cover.
我知道我们还可以涵盖更多内容。
Andrew Huberman: I'm going to insist on a part two at some point.
Andrew Huberman：我会坚持在某个时候推出第二部分。
But I really want to speak on behalf of a huge number of people and just thank you, not just for your time and energy and attention to detail and accuracy and clarity around this topic today, but also, what I should have said at the beginning, which is that you really are a pioneer in this field of studying respiration and the mechanisms underlying respiration with modern tools now for many decades.
但我真的想代表很多人发言，感谢你们，不仅感谢你们投入的时间和精力，感谢你们对今天这个主题的细节、准确性和清晰度的关注，而且，我在一开始就应该说的话，你们确实是几十年来使用现代工具研究呼吸和呼吸机制这一领域的先驱。
Andrew Huberman: I really want to extend a sincere thanks.
Andrew Huberman：我真的想表达诚挚的谢意。
It means a lot to me, and I know to the audience of this podcast, that someone with your depth and rigor in this area is both a scientist and a practitioner, and that you would share this with us.
这对我来说意义重大，我也知道这个播客的观众，像你这样在这个领域有深度和严谨的人既是科学家又是实践者，你会与我们分享这一点。
So thank you.
所以谢谢你。
Jack Feldman: I appreciate the opportunity, and I would be delighted to come back at any time.
杰克·费尔德曼：我很高兴有这个机会，我很高兴随时回来。
Andrew Huberman: Wonderful.
安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。
We will absolutely do it.
我们绝对会做到。
Thanks again, Jack.
再次感谢，杰克。
Jack Feldman: Bye now.
杰克·费尔德曼：再见。