Essentials: How Your Brain Functions & Interprets the World | Dr. David Berson
Andrew Huberman: Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials, where we revisit past episodes for the most potent and actionable science-based tools for mental health, physical health, and performance.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：欢迎来到胡伯曼实验室要点，在这里我们回顾过去的剧集，寻找针对心理健康、身体健康和表现的最有效、最可操作的基于科学的工具。
Andrew Huberman: I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，我是斯坦福大学医学院的神经生物学和眼科教授。
Andrew Huberman: And now for my discussion with Dr. David Berson.
Andrew Huberman：现在我与 David Berson 博士进行讨论。
Andrew Huberman: For more than 20 years, you've been my go-to source for all things nervous system, how it works, how it's structured, so today I want to ask you some questions about that.
Andrew Huberman：20 多年来，您一直是我了解神经系统、神经系统如何工作、结构如何的所有知识的首选来源，所以今天我想问您一些相关问题。
I think people would gain a lot of insight into this machine that makes them think and feel and see, et cetera.
我认为人们会对这台机器有更多的了解，这让他们思考、感觉和看到等等。
If you would, could you tell us how we see?
如果愿意的话，您能告诉我们我们是如何看待的吗？
A photon of light enters the eye.
光的光子进入眼睛。
What happens?
会发生什么？
Dr. David Berson: Right.
大卫·伯森博士：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I mean, how is it that I look outside, I see a truck drive by, or I look on the wall, I see a photo of my dog?
安德鲁·休伯曼：我的意思是，当我看到外面有一辆卡车驶过时，或者我在墙上看到一张我的狗的照片时，情况如何？
How does that work?
这是如何运作的？
Dr. David Berson: Right.
大卫·伯森博士：是的。
So, this is an old question, obviously.
所以，显然这是一个老问题。
And clearly, in the end, the reason you have a visual experience is that your brain has got some pattern of activity that it associates with the input from the periphery.
显然，最终，您拥有视觉体验的原因是您的大脑具有某种与外围输入相关联的活动模式。
But you can have a visual experience with no input from the periphery as well.
但您也可以在没有外围输入的情况下获得视觉体验。
When you're dreaming, you're seeing things that aren't coming through your eyes.
当你做梦时，你会看到一些不是通过你的眼睛看到的东西。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Are those memories?
安德鲁·休伯曼：那些是记忆吗？
Dr. David Berson: I would say in a sense, they may reflect your visual experience.
David Berson 博士：我想说，从某种意义上说，它们可能反映了你的视觉体验。
They're not necessarily specific visual memories, but of course they can be.
它们不一定是特定的视觉记忆，但它们当然可以是。
But the point is that the experience of seeing is actually a brain phenomenon.
但重点是，视觉的体验实际上是一种大脑现象。
But of course, under normal circumstances, we see the world because we're looking at it, and we're using our eyes to look at it.
但当然，在正常情况下，我们看到世界是因为我们正在看它，我们正在用我们的眼睛来观察它。
And fundamentally, when we're looking at the exterior world, it's what the retina is telling the brain that matters.
从根本上说，当我们观察外部世界时，视网膜告诉大脑的信息才是最重要的。
Dr. David Berson: So, there are cells called ganglion cells, these are neurons that are the key cells for communicating between eye and brain.
David Berson 博士：所以，有一种细胞叫做神经节细胞，这些神经元是眼睛和大脑之间交流的关键细胞。
The eye is like the camera.
眼睛就像相机。
It's detecting the initial image, doing some initial processing, and then that signal gets sent back to the brain proper, and of course, it's there at the level of the cortex that we have this conscious visual experience.
它检测初始图像，进行一些初始处理，然后该信号被发送回大脑本身，当然，正是在皮质层，我们才有了这种有意识的视觉体验。
There are many other places in the brain that get visual input as well, doing other things with that kind of information.
大脑中还有许多其他地方也可以获得视觉输入，并利用此类信息做其他事情。
Andrew Huberman: So, I get a lot of questions about color vision.
Andrew Huberman：所以，我收到了很多关于色觉的问题。
If you would, could you explain how is it that we can perceive reds, and greens, and blues, and things of that sort?
如果你愿意，你能解释一下我们是如何感知红色、绿色、蓝色以及诸如此类的东西的吗？
Dr. David Berson: Right.
大卫·伯森博士：是的。
So, the first thing to understand about light is that it's just a form of electromagnetic radiation.
因此，关于光，首先要了解的是它只是电磁辐射的一种形式。
It's vibrating.
它在振动。
It's oscillating.
它正在振荡。
But...
但是...
Andrew Huberman: When you say it's vibrating, it's oscillating, you mean that photons are actually moving?
安德鲁·休伯曼：当你说它在振动、振荡时，你的意思是光子实际上在移动？
Dr. David Berson: Well, in a sense, photons are certainly moving through space.
大卫·伯森博士：嗯，从某种意义上说，光子确实在空间中移动。
We think about photons as particles, and that's one way of thinking about light.
我们将光子视为粒子，这是思考光的一种方式。
But we can also think of it as a wave, like a radio wave.
但我们也可以将其视为一种波，就像无线电波一样。
Either way is acceptable.
无论哪种方式都是可以接受的。
And the radio waves have frequencies, like the frequencies on your radio dial, and certain frequencies in the electromagnetic spectrum can be detected by neurons in the retina.
无线电波具有频率，就像无线电拨号盘上的频率一样，电磁频谱中的某些频率可以被视网膜中的神经元检测到。
Those are the things we see.
这些就是我们所看到的。
Dr. David Berson: But there are still different wavelengths within the light that can be seen by the eye.
David Berson 博士：但是肉眼可见的光中仍然存在不同的波长。
And those different wavelengths are unpacked, in a sense, or decoded by the nervous system to lead to our experience of color.
从某种意义上说，这些不同的波长被神经系统解压或解码，从而产生我们对颜色的体验。
Essentially, different wavelengths give us the sensation of different colors through the auspices of different neurons that are tuned to different wavelengths of light.
从本质上讲，不同的波长通过调节不同波长的光的不同神经元的支持，给我们带来不同颜色的感觉。
Andrew Huberman: So, when a photon...
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，当光子......
So, when a little bit of light hits my eye, it goes in, the photoreceptors convert that into an electrical signal.
因此，当一点点光照射到我的眼睛时，它就会进入，感光器将其转换为电信号。
Dr. David Berson: Right.
大卫·伯森博士：是的。
Dr. David Berson: Right.
大卫·伯森博士：是的。
Andrew Huberman: How is it that a given photon of light gives me the perception, eventually leads to the perception of red versus green versus blue?
Andrew Huberman：给定的光光子如何给我感知，最终导致红色、绿色和蓝色的感知？
Dr. David Berson: Right.
大卫·伯森博士：是的。
So, if you imagine that in the first layer of the retina where this transformation occurs from electromagnetic radiation into neural signals, that you have different kinds of sensitive cells that are expressing, they're making different molecules within themselves for this express purpose of absorbing photons, which is the first step in the process of seeing.
因此，如果你想象一下，在视网膜的第一层，从电磁辐射到神经信号的转变发生，你有不同种类的敏感细胞在表达，它们在自身内部制造不同的分子，以达到吸收光子的明确目的，这是视觉过程的第一步。
Dr. David Berson: Now, it turns out that altogether, there are about five proteins like this that we need to think about in the typical retina.
David Berson 博士：现在，事实证明，在典型的视网膜中，我们需要考虑总共大约有五种这样的蛋白质。
But for seeing color, really, it's three of them.
但要看到颜色，实际上，需要三个。
So, there are three different proteins.
因此，存在三种不同的蛋白质。
Each absorbs light with a different preferred frequency, and then the nervous system keeps track of those signals, compares and contrasts them to extract some understanding of the wavelength composition of light.
每个吸收具有不同首选频率的光，然后神经系统跟踪这些信号，对它们进行比较和对比，以提取对光的波长组成的一些理解。
Dr. David Berson: So, you can see just by looking at a landscape, "Oh, it must be late in the day because things are looking golden." That's all a function of our absorbing the light that's coming from the world and interpreting that with our brain, because of the different composition of the light that's reaching our eyes.
大卫·伯森博士：所以，你只要看风景就可以知道，“哦，现在一定是天很晚了，因为一切看起来都是金色的。”这都是我们吸收来自世界的光并用我们的大脑解释它的功能，因为到达我们眼睛的光的成分不同。
Andrew Huberman: Is it fair to assume that my perception of red is the same as your perception of red?
Andrew Huberman：假设我对红色的感知与你对红色的感知相同，这公平吗？
Dr. David Berson: Well, that's a great question.
David Berson 博士：嗯，这是一个很好的问题。
Andrew Huberman: And that mine is better?
Andrew Huberman：那我的更好？
I'm just kidding.
我只是在开玩笑。
Dr. David Berson: It's a great question.
David Berson 博士：这是一个很好的问题。
It's a deep philosophical question.
这是一个深刻的哲学问题。
It's a question that really, probably can't even ultimately be answered by the usual empirical scientific processes, because it's really about an individual's experience.
这个问题实际上可能甚至最终无法通过通常的经验科学过程来回答，因为它实际上与个人的经历有关。
Dr. David Berson: What we can say is that the biological mechanisms that we think are important for seeing color, for example, seem to be very highly similar from one individual to the next, whether it be human beings or other animals.
大卫·伯森博士：我们可以说的是，我们认为对看到颜色很重要的生物机制，例如，个体之间似乎非常相似，无论是人类还是其他动物。
And so, we think that the physiological process looks very similar on the front end.
因此，我们认为生理过程在前端看起来非常相似。
Dr. David Berson: But, once you're at the level of perception or understanding or experience, that's something that's a little bit tougher to nail down with the sorts of scientific approaches that we approach biological vision with, let's say.
大卫·伯森博士：但是，一旦你达到了感知、理解或体验的水平，就很难用我们处理生物视觉的科学方法来确定这一点了。
Andrew Huberman: You mentioned that there are five different cone types, essentially, cones being the cells that absorb light of different wavelengths.
Andrew Huberman：您提到有五种不同的视锥细胞类型，本质上，视锥细胞是吸收不同波长的光的细胞。
Dr. David Berson: It's not really five types of cones.
David Berson 博士：这并不是真正的五种视锥细胞。
There are really three types of cones.
实际上存在三种类型的锥体。
And if you look at the way that color vision is thought to work, you can sort of see that there has to be three different signals.
如果你看看色觉的工作方式，你就会发现必须存在三种不同的信号。
There are a couple of other types of pigments.
还有其他几种类型的颜料。
One is really mostly for dim-light vision, when you're walking around on a moonless night, and you're seeing things with very low light.
一种实际上主要用于昏暗的光线视觉，当您在无月的夜晚四处走动时，您会在光线非常暗的情况下看到事物。
That's the rod cell, and that uses its own pigment.
这就是杆状细胞，它使用自己的色素。
And then there's another class of pigments we'll probably talk about a little bit later, this melanopsin pigment.
然后，我们稍后可能会讨论另一类色素，即黑视蛋白色素。
Andrew Huberman: I thought you were referring to ultraviolet and infrared, and things of that sort.
Andrew Huberman：我以为你指的是紫外线和红外线，以及类似的东西。
Dr. David Berson: Right.
大卫·伯森博士：是的。
Dr. David Berson: Right.
大卫·伯森博士：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
Dr. David Berson: So, in the case of a typical...
大卫·博森博士：所以，在典型的情况下......
Well, let's put it this way, in human beings, most of us have three cone types, and we can see colors that stem from that.
好吧，让我们这样说吧，在人类中，我们大多数人都有三种视锥细胞类型，我们可以看到由此产生的颜色。
In most mammals, including your dog or your cat, there really are only two cone types.
在大多数哺乳动物中，包括你的狗或你的猫，实际上只有两种视锥细胞类型。
And that limits the kind of vision that they can have in the domain of wavelength or color, as we'd say.
正如我们所说，这限制了它们在波长或颜色领域的视觉类型。
Andrew Huberman: Let's talk about that odd photopigment.
Andrew Huberman：我们来谈谈那个奇怪的感光颜料。
Dr. David Berson: Yeah, so this last pigment is a really peculiar one.
大卫·伯森博士：是的，最后一种颜料是一种非常奇特的颜料。
One can think about it as, really, the initial sensitive element in a system that's designed to tell your brain about how bright things are in your world.
人们实际上可以将其视为系统中的第一个敏感元件，该系统旨在告诉您的大脑世界上的事物有多明亮。
And the thing that's really peculiar about this pigment is that it's in the wrong place, in a sense.
从某种意义上说，这种颜料的真正奇特之处在于它出现在错误的位置。
When you think about the structure of the retina, you think about a layer cake, essentially.
当你想到视网膜的结构时，本质上你会想到一层蛋糕。
You've got this thin membrane at the back of your eye, but it's actually a stack of thin layers, and the outermost of those layers is where these photoreceptors, you were talking about earlier, are sitting.
你的眼睛后面有一层薄膜，但它实际上是一堆薄层，而这些层的最外层就是你之前提到的这些光感受器所在的位置。
That's where the film of your camera is, essentially.
本质上，这就是相机胶卷所在的位置。
That's where the photons do their magic with the photopigments and turn it into a neural signal.
这就是光子对感光色素发挥作用并将其转化为神经信号的地方。
Andrew Huberman: I like that.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我喜欢这样。
I've never really thought of the photoreceptors as the film of the camera, but that makes sense.
我从来没有真正将感光器视为相机的胶片，但这是有道理的。
Dr. David Berson: It's the surface on which the light pattern is imaged by the optics of the eye.
David Berson 博士：它是眼睛光学系统在其上成像光图案的表面。
And now, you've got an array of sensors that's capturing that information and creating a bitmap, essentially.
现在，您已经有了一组传感器，它们基本上可以捕获该信息并创建位图。
But now it's in neural signals distributed across the surface of the retina.
但现在它是分布在视网膜表面的神经信号中。
But it turns out that this last photopigment is in the other end of the retina, the innermost part of the retina, and that's where the so-called ganglion cells are.
但事实证明，最后的感光色素位于视网膜的另一端，即视网膜的最内部，也就是所谓的神经节细胞所在的地方。
Those are the cells that talk to the brain, the ones that actually can communicate directly what information comes to them from the photoreceptors.
这些是与大脑对话的细胞，实际上可以直接传达从光感受器传来的信息。
Dr. David Berson: And here, you've got a case where actually, some of the output neurons that we didn't think had any business being directly sensitive to light, were actually making this photopigment, absorbing light, and converting that to neural signals and sending it to the brain.
大卫·伯森博士：在这里，你有一个例子，实际上，一些我们认为与光直接敏感无关的输出神经元实际上正在制造这种感光色素，吸收光，并将其转换为神经信号并将其发送到大脑。
That's your circadian system.
这就是你的昼夜节律系统。
It's keeping time, and it's all built into our biology.
它保持时间，这一切都内置于我们的生物学中。
And this is actually one of the things that blind patients often complain about, if they've got retinal blindness, is insomnia, and/or sleep and disturbing the brain.
这实际上是盲人患者经常抱怨的事情之一，如果他们患有视网膜失明，那就是失眠和/或睡眠和干扰大脑。
Andrew Huberman: Because their brain's awake in the middle of the night.
Andrew Huberman：因为他们的大脑在半夜是醒着的。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. David Berson: Exactly, they're not synchronized.
David Berson 博士：确实，它们不同步。
Their clock is there, but they're drifting out of phase because their clock's only good to 24.2 hours or 23.8 hours.
他们的时钟在那里，但他们正在偏离相位，因为他们的时钟只适合 24.2 小时或 23.8 小时。
Little by little, they're drifting.
渐渐地，他们在漂流。
So, you need a synchronization signal, because otherwise, you have nothing to actually confirm when the rising and the setting of the sun is.
因此，您需要一个同步信号，因为否则，您无法实际确认太阳何时升起和落下。
That's what you're trying to synchronize yourself to.
这就是你试图使自己同步的目标。
Andrew Huberman: I'm fascinated by the circadian clock and the fact that all the cells of our body have essentially a 24-hour-ish clock in them.
Andrew Huberman：我对生物钟很着迷，我们身体的所有细胞本质上都有一个 24 小时制的时钟。
Dr. David Berson: Right.
大卫·伯森博士：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I've never really heard it described how the clock itself works, and how the clock signals to all the rest of the body when the liver should be doing one thing and when the stomach should be doing another.
Andrew Huberman：我从来没有真正听到它描述过时钟本身是如何工作的，以及时钟如何向身体的其他部分发出信号，什么时候肝脏应该做一件事，什么时候胃应该做另一件事。
If you would just, maybe, briefly describe where the clock is, what it does, and some of the top contour of how it tells the cells of the body what to do.
如果您只是简单地描述一下时钟在哪里，它做什么，以及它如何告诉身体细胞做什么的一些顶部轮廓。
Dr. David Berson: Right.
大卫·伯森博士：是的。
So, the first thing to say is that, as you said, the clock is all over the place.
所以，首先要说的是，正如你所说，时钟无处不在。
Most of the tissues in your body have clocks.
你体内的大部分组织都有时钟。
The role of the central pacemaker, for the circadian system, is to coordinate all of these.
对于昼夜节律系统来说，中央起搏器的作用是协调所有这些。
There's a little nucleus, a little collection of nerve cells in your brain that's called the suprachiasmatic nucleus, the SCN.
大脑中有一个小核，一个神经细胞的小集合，称为视交叉上核（SCN）。
And it is sitting in a funny place for the rest of the structures in the nervous system that get direct retinal input.
对于神经系统中获得直接视网膜输入的其他结构来说，它处于一个有趣的位置。
It's sitting in the hypothalamus, which you can think about as sort of the great coordinator of drives and...
它位于下丘脑，你可以将其视为驱动力和……的伟大协调者。
Andrew Huberman: The source of all our pleasures and all our problems.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我们所有快乐和所有问题的根源。
Dr. David Berson: Right.
大卫·伯森博士：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Or most our problems.
Andrew Huberman：或者说我们的大多数问题。
Dr. David Berson: Yes, it really is.
大卫·伯森博士：是的，确实如此。
But it's sort of deep in your brain, things that drive you to do things.
但它在你的大脑深处，是驱使你去做事情的东西。
If you're freezing cold, you put on a coat, you shiver.
如果你冷得要命，你就穿上外套，你会瑟瑟发抖。
All these things are coordinated by the hypothalamus.
所有这些事情都是由下丘脑协调的。
Dr. David Berson: So, this pathway that we're talking about from the retina and from these peculiar cells that are encoding light intensity, are sending signals directly into a center that's surrounded by all of these centers that control the autonomic nervous system and your hormonal systems.
大卫·伯森博士：所以，我们正在谈论的这条来自视网膜和这些编码光强度的特殊细胞的通路，将信号直接发送到一个中心，该中心被控制自主神经系统和荷尔蒙系统的所有这些中心包围。
The hypothalamus uses everything to control the rest of the body, and that's true of the suprachiasmatic nucleus, this circadian center as well.
下丘脑利用一切来控制身体的其他部分，视交叉上核也是如此，这个昼夜节律中心也是如此。
Dr. David Berson: It can get its fingers into the autonomic nervous system, the humoral system, and, of course, up to the centers of the brain that organize coordinated rational behavior.
大卫·博森博士：它可以进入自主神经系统、体液系统，当然还有组织协调理性行为的大脑中心。
Andrew Huberman: So, if I understand correctly, we have this group of cells, the suprachiasmatic nucleus, it's got a 24-hour rhythm.
Andrew Huberman：所以，如果我理解正确的话，我们有这组细胞，即视交叉上核，它有 24 小时的节律。
Andrew Huberman: That rhythm is more or less matched to what's going on in our external world by the specialized set of neurons in our eye.
Andrew Huberman：这种节奏或多或少与我们眼睛中专门的神经元组在外部世界发生的事情相匹配。
But then, the master clock itself, the SCN, releases things in the blood, humoral signals, that go out various places in the body, and they send to the autonomic system, which is regulating more or less how alert or calm we are, as well as our thinking and our cognition.
但是，主时钟本身，即视交叉上核，会在血液中释放出体液信号，这些信号会从身体的各个部位发出，然后发送到自主系统，该系统或多或少地调节着我们的警觉或平静程度，以及我们的思维和认知。
Dr. David Berson: Sure.
大卫·伯森博士：当然。
Andrew Huberman: Then the SCN, the suprachiasmatic nucleus, can impact the melatonin system via the pineal.
Andrew Huberman：那么视交叉上核（SCN）可以通过松果体影响褪黑激素系统。
Dr. David Berson: Right.
大卫·伯森博士：是的。
Dr. David Berson: Right.
大卫·伯森博士：是的。
The way this is seen is that if you were to measure your melatonin level, over the course of the day, if you could do this hour by hour, you'd see that it's really low during the day, very high at night.
看到这一点的方式是，如果你要在一天中测量你的褪黑激素水平，如果你能每小时这样做，你会发现它在白天非常低，在晚上非常高。
But if you get up in the middle of the night and go to the bathroom and turn on the bright fluorescent light, your melatonin level is slammed to the floor.
但如果你半夜起床去洗手间并打开明亮的荧光灯，你的褪黑激素水平就会急剧下降。
Light is directly impacting your hormonal levels through this mechanism that we described.
光通过我们描述的这种机制直接影响您的荷尔蒙水平。
Dr. David Berson: So, this is one of the routes by which light can act on your hormonal status through pathways that are completely beyond what you normally would think about, right?
大卫·博森博士：所以，这是光影响荷尔蒙状态的途径之一，其途径完全超出了您通常的想象，对吧？
You're thinking about the things in the bathroom, "Oh, there's the toothbrush."
你在想浴室里的东西，“哦，有牙刷。”
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Dr. David Berson: "There's the tube of toothpaste." But meanwhile, this other system is just counting photons and saying, "Oh, wow, there's a lot of photons right now, let's shut down melatonin release."
大卫·伯森博士：“这是一管牙膏。”但与此同时，另一个系统只是计算光子并说：“哦，哇，现在有很多光子，让我们关闭褪黑激素的释放。”
Andrew Huberman: I want to ask you about a different aspect of the visual system now, which is the one that relates to our sense of balance.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我现在想问你关于视觉系统的另一个方面，这与我们的平衡感有关。
Maybe just walk in at the simplest layers of vision, vestibular, so-called balance system, and then maybe we can piece this system together for people so that they can understand.
也许只是走进最简单的视觉层、前庭层、所谓的平衡系统，然后也许我们可以把这个系统拼凑起来，让人们能够理解。
And then also, we should give them some tools for adjusting their nausea when their vestibular system is out of whack.
然后，我们还应该给他们一些工具，以在他们的前庭系统出现问题时调节恶心。
Dr. David Berson: Cool.
大卫·博森博士：酷。
So, yeah, I mean, the first thing to think about is that the vestibular system is designed to allow you to sense how you're moving in the world, through the world.
所以，是的，我的意思是，首先要考虑的是前庭系统的设计目的是让你感知你如何在这个世界上移动，通过这个世界。
Basically, the idea is that if we're just sitting in a car, in the passenger seat, and the driver hits the accelerator and you start moving forward, you sense that.
基本上，这个想法是，如果我们只是坐在车里，坐在乘客座位上，司机踩油门，你开始向前行驶，你就会感觉到。
If your eyes were closed, you'd sense it.
如果你闭上眼睛，你就能感觉到。
If your ears were plugged and your eyes were closed, you'd still know it.
如果你堵住耳朵、闭上眼睛，你仍然会知道。
Anything that jostles you out of the current position you're in right now will be detected by the vestibular system, pretty much.
任何将你推离当前位置的事物都会被前庭系统检测到，几乎如此。
Dr. David Berson: It's basically in your inner ear, hairy cells, they got little cilia sticking up off the surfaces, and depending on which way you bend those, the cells will either be inhibited or excited, but then they talk to neurons with a neuron-like process, and off you go.
大卫·伯森博士：它基本上是在你的内耳中，毛状细胞，它们有小纤毛从表面伸出，根据你弯曲这些纤毛的方式，细胞会被抑制或兴奋，但然后它们会通过类似神经元的过程与神经元对话，然后你就可以离开了。
Now you've got an auditory signal if you're sensing things bouncing around in your cochlea, which is sympathetically, the bouncing of your eardrum, which is sympathetically, the sound waves in the world.
现在，如果您感觉到耳蜗中的物体在弹跳，即耳膜的弹跳，即世界上的声波，您就得到了听觉信号。
Andrew Huberman: Sound waves.
安德鲁·休伯曼：声波。
Dr. David Berson: But in the case of the vestibular apparatus, evolution has built a system that detects the motion of, say, fluid going by those hairs.
大卫·伯森博士：但就前庭器官而言，进化已经建立了一个系统，可以检测例如通过这些毛发的液体的运动。
And if you put a sensor like that in a tube that's fluid-filled, now you've got a sensor that will be activated when you rotate that tube around the axis that passes through the middle of it.
如果您将这样的传感器放入充满液体的管子中，那么现在您就拥有了一个传感器，当您围绕穿过其中间的轴旋转该管子时，该传感器将被激活。
Andrew Huberman: I always think of it as three hula hoops.
Andrew Huberman：我一直认为它是三个呼啦圈。
Dr. David Berson: Right, three hula hoops.
David Berson 博士：对，三个呼啦圈。
Andrew Huberman: One standing up, one lying down on the ground.
安德鲁·休伯曼：一个站着，一个躺在地上。
Dr. David Berson: Right.
大卫·伯森博士：是的。
One, the other direction.
一，另一个方向。
Andrew Huberman: And one the other way.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：反之亦然。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. David Berson: Three directions.
David Berson 博士：三个方向。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Dr. David Berson: So, three axes of encoding, just like in the cones of the retina.
David Berson 博士：所以，编码的三个轴，就像视网膜的视锥细胞一样。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, sort of the "Yes," the "No," and then I always say it's the "Puppy Head Tilt."
安德鲁·胡伯曼：是的，有点“是”，“不”，然后我总是说这是“小狗头倾斜”。
Dr. David Berson: "No."
大卫·伯森博士：“不。”
Dr. David Berson: Yeah, the puppy head tilt.
大卫·伯森博士：是的，小狗的头倾斜。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Dr. David Berson: That's the other one.
David Berson 博士：那是另一个。
So, the point is that your brain is eventually going to be able to unpack what these sensors are telling you about how you just rotated your head.
所以，关键是你的大脑最终将能够解开这些传感器告诉你的关于你如何旋转头部的信息。
Now you can tell if you're rotating your head left or right, up or down.
现在您可以判断自己的头部是向左还是向右、向上还是向下旋转。
That's the sensory signal coming back into your brain, confirming that you've just made a movement that you will.
这是返回您大脑的感觉信号，确认您刚刚做出了您想要的动作。
A lot of this is happening under the surface of what you're thinking.
很多事情都发生在你所想的表面之下。
These are reflexes.
这些都是反射。
Dr. David Berson: Maybe the best way to think about how these two systems work together, is to think about what happens when you suddenly rotate your head to the left.
David Berson 博士：也许思考这两个系统如何协同工作的最佳方法是思考当你突然向左旋转头部时会发生什么。
When you suddenly rotate your head to the left, your eyes are actually rotating to the right, automatically.
当你突然将头向左旋转时，你的眼睛实际上会自动向右旋转。
You do this in complete darkness.
您在完全黑暗的情况下进行此操作。
If you had an infrared camera, and watched yourself, in complete darkness, you can't see anything.
如果您有红外摄像机，并在完全黑暗的情况下观察自己，您将看不到任何东西。
Rotating your head to the left, your eyes would rotate to the right.
当你的头向左转动时，你的眼睛就会向右转动。
Dr. David Berson: That's your vestibular system saying, "I'm going to try to compensate for the head rotation, so my eyes are still looking in the same place." So, the brain works really hard to mostly stabilize the image of the world on your retina.
大卫·伯森博士：这是你的前庭系统在说：“我将尝试补偿头部旋转，所以我的眼睛仍然看向同一个地方。”因此，大脑非常努力地工作以基本稳定视网膜上的世界图像。
Now, of course, you're moving through the world, so you can't stabilize everything.
当然，现在你正在世界各地移动，所以你无法稳定一切。
But the more you can stabilize most of the time, the better you can see.
但大多数时候你越稳定，你就能看得越清楚。
And that's why when we're scanning a scene, looking around at things, we're making very rapid eye movements for very short periods of time, and then we just rest.
这就是为什么当我们扫描场景、环顾四周时，我们会在很短的时间内进行非常快速的眼球运动，然后我们就休息。
Dr. David Berson: But we're not the only ones that do that.
David Berson 博士：但我们并不是唯一这样做的人。
If you ever watch a pigeon walking on the sidewalk, it does this funny head bobbing thing.
如果你曾经观察过一只鸽子在人行道上行走，它会做出这种有趣的摇头动作。
But what it's really doing is racking its head back on its neck while its body goes forward, so that the image of the visual world stays static.
但它真正做的事情是，当身体向前移动时，它的头向后仰靠在脖子上，这样视觉世界的图像就保持静止。
Andrew Huberman: Really?
安德鲁·休伯曼：真的吗？
Dr. David Berson: Yes.
大卫·伯森博士：是的。
Dr. David Berson: And you've seen the funny chicken videos on YouTube, right?
David Berson 博士：您在 YouTube 上看过有趣的小鸡视频，对吧？
If you take a chicken, move it up and down, the head stays in one place.
如果你拿一只鸡，上下移动它，头会留在一个地方。
Andrew Huberman: Right.
安德鲁·休伯曼：对。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, the head stays.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，头部保留下来。
Dr. David Berson: It's all the same thing.
David Berson 博士：都是一样的。
All of these animals are trying hard to keep the image of the world stable on their retina, as much of the time as they possibly can.
所有这些动物都尽可能多地努力使视网膜上的世界图像保持稳定。
And then when they've got to move, make it fast, make it quick, and then stabilize again.
然后当他们需要移动时，要快点，快点，然后再次稳定下来。
Andrew Huberman: That's why the pigeons have their head back?
安德鲁·休伯曼：这就是鸽子把头向后仰的原因？
Dr. David Berson: It is, yeah.
David Berson 博士：是的，是的。
Andrew Huberman: Wow.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哇。
Dr. David Berson: Yeah.
大卫·伯森博士：是的。
I mean if you...
我的意思是如果你...
Andrew Huberman: I think I just need to pause there for a second and digest that.
Andrew Huberman：我想我只需要暂停一下并消化一下。
Amazing.
惊人的。
What's going on with the vision and the balance system that causes a kind of nausea?
视力和平衡系统出了什么问题导致恶心？
Dr. David Berson: I think the fundamental problem, typically, when you get motion sick, is what they call visual vestibular conflict.
大卫·伯森博士：我认为，当你晕车时，最根本的问题通常是所谓的视觉前庭冲突。
That is, you have two sensory systems that are talking to your brain about how you're moving through the world, and as long as they agree, you're fine.
也就是说，你有两个感觉系统正在与你的大脑谈论你如何在这个世界上移动，只要它们同意，你就没事。
Dr. David Berson: So, if you're driving, your body senses that you're moving forward, your vestibular system is picking up this acceleration of the car, and your visual system is seeing the consequences of forward motion in the sweeping of the scene past you.
大卫·伯森博士：所以，如果你在开车，你的身体会感觉到你正在向前移动，你的前庭系统会接收到汽车的加速度，而你的视觉系统会看到向前运动在扫过你身边的场景中所产生的后果。
Everything is hunky-dory, right?
一切都很顺利，对吧？
No problem.
没问题。
But when you are headed forward, but you're looking at your cellphone, what is your retina seeing?
但是当你向前看时，你正在看手机，你的视网膜看到了什么？
Your retina is seeing the stable image of the screen.
您的视网膜正在看到屏幕的稳定图像。
There's absolutely no motion in that little screen.
那个小屏幕上绝对没有任何动作。
Andrew Huberman: Or some other motion like a movie or, yeah.
Andrew Huberman：或者其他一些动作，比如电影，或者，是的。
Dr. David Berson: Or some other...
David Berson 博士：或者其他一些......
If you're playing a game, or you're watching a video, a football game.
如果您正在玩游戏，或者正在观看视频、足球比赛。
The motion is uncoupled with what's actually happening to your body.
该运动与您身体实际发生的情况无关。
Your brain doesn't like that.
你的大脑不喜欢那样。
Your brain likes everything to be aligned.
你的大脑喜欢一切都保持一致。
And if it's not, it's going to complain to you.
如果不是，它会向你抱怨。
Andrew Huberman: By making me feel nauseous?
Andrew Huberman：让我感到恶心？
Dr. David Berson: By making you feel nauseous, and maybe you'll change your behavior.
大卫·伯森博士：通过让你感到恶心，也许你会改变你的行为。
So, you're getting...
所以，你正在...
Andrew Huberman: I'm getting punished?
Andrew Huberman：我受到惩罚了吗？
Dr. David Berson: Yeah for setting it up so your signals conflict.
David Berson 博士：是的，设置它使您的信号发生冲突。
Andrew Huberman: For looking at my phone?
Andrew Huberman：为了看我的手机？
Dr. David Berson: Right.
大卫·伯森博士：是的。
Andrew Huberman: By the vestibular visuals.
Andrew Huberman：通过前庭视觉。
Dr. David Berson: You'll learn.
David Berson 博士：你会学到的。
Andrew Huberman: Well, maybe marching a little bit further along this pathway, visual input is combined with balance input, where does that occur?
Andrew Huberman：嗯，也许沿着这条路走得更远一点，视觉输入与平衡输入相结合，这发生在哪里？
And maybe you could tell us a little bit about this kind of mysterious little mini-brain that they call the cerebellum.
也许你可以告诉我们一些关于这种神秘的迷你大脑的信息，他们称之为小脑。
Dr. David Berson: Cerebellum, yeah.
David Berson 博士：小脑，是的。
So, the way I try to describe the cerebellum to my students is that it serves, sort of like the air traffic control system functions in air travel.
所以，我试图向我的学生描述小脑的方式是，它的作用有点像空中交通管制系统在航空旅行中的功能。
It's a system that's very complicated, and it's really dependent on great information.
这是一个非常复杂的系统，它确实依赖于大量的信息。
Dr. David Berson: So, it's taking in the information about everything that's happening everywhere, not only through your sensory systems.
大卫·伯森博士：所以，它不仅通过你的感觉系统来吸收各地发生的一切信息。
But it's listening in to all the little centers elsewhere in your brain that are computing what you're going to be doing next, and so forth.
但它正在监听你大脑其他地方的所有小中心，这些中心正在计算你下一步要做什么，等等。
And it really has an important role in coordinating and shaping movements.
它在协调和塑造动作方面确实发挥着重要作用。
Dr. David Berson: But it's not that you would be paralyzed if your cerebellum was gone, because you still have motor neurons, you still have ways to talk to your muscles, you still have reflex centers.
大卫·伯森博士：但如果你的小脑消失了，你也不会瘫痪，因为你仍然有运动神经元，你仍然有办法与你的肌肉对话，你仍然有反射中心。
But you wouldn't be coordinating things so well anymore.
但你不会再那么协调事情了。
The timing between input and output might be off.
输入和输出之间的时序可能关闭。
Dr. David Berson: Or if you were trying to practice a new athletic move, like an overhead serve in tennis, you'd be just terrible at learning all of the sequences of muscle movements, and the feedback from your sensory apparatus that would let you really hit that ball exactly where you want it to after the nth rep, right?
大卫·伯森博士：或者，如果你尝试练习一项新的运动动作，例如网球中的过顶发球，那么你在学习所有肌肉运动序列以及来自感觉器官的反馈方面就会表现得很糟糕，而这些反馈会让你在第 n 次重复后真正将球准确击到你想要的位置，对吗？
And in the thousandth rep or something, you get much better at it.
在第千次重复或类似的情况下，你会变得更好。
Dr. David Berson: So, the cerebellum's all involved in things like motor learning and refining the precisions of movements, so that they get you where you want to go.
大卫·伯森博士：所以，小脑都参与运动学习和提高运动精度等事情，这样它们就能让你到达你想去的地方。
If you reach for a glass of champagne, that you don't knock it over or stop short, you know?
如果你伸手去拿一杯香槟，你不会把它打翻或停下来，你知道吗？
That's what it's good at.
这就是它所擅长的。
Andrew Huberman: Are there people who have selective damage to the cerebellum?
Andrew Huberman：有人的小脑有选择性损伤吗？
Dr. David Berson: Absolutely.
大卫·博森博士：当然。
The typical thing would be a patient who has a cerebellar stroke or a tumor, for example, might not be that steady on their feet.
例如，典型的情况是患有小脑中风或肿瘤的患者可能站不稳。
If the dynamics of the situation, just standing on a streetcar with no pole to hold onto, they might not be as good at adjusting to all of the little movements of the car.
如果情况动态，只是站在有轨电车上，没有杆子可以抓住，他们可能不太善于适应汽车的所有小动作。
Dr. David Berson: There's a kind of tremor that can occur as they're reaching for things, because they reach a little too far, and then they over-correct and come back, things like that.
大卫·伯森博士：当他们伸手去拿东西时，可能会发生一种颤抖，因为他们伸得太远了，然后他们过度纠正并回来了，类似的事情。
So, it's a very common neurological phenomenon, actually.
所以，实际上这是一种非常常见的神经现象。
Cerebellar ataxia is what the neurologists call it, and it can happen not just with cerebellar damage, but damage to the tracts that feed the information into the cerebellum, or by which...
神经学家称之为小脑性共济失调，它不仅可能发生在小脑损伤中，还可能发生在将信息输入小脑的神经束损伤中，或者通过...
Andrew Huberman: Right, you just deprive the structure.
Andrew Huberman：是的，你只是剥夺了结构。
Dr. David Berson: Exactly, or output from the cerebellum.
David Berson 博士：没错，或者是小脑的输出。
Andrew Huberman: And so the cerebellum is where a lot of visual and balance information is combined.
Andrew Huberman：所以小脑是许多视觉和平衡信息结合的地方。
Dr. David Berson: And a very key place in the cerebellum, which really is one of the oldest parts in terms of evolution.
大卫·伯森博士：小脑中非常关键的地方，它确实是进化中最古老的部分之一。
Andrew Huberman: You're talking about the flocculus.
Andrew Huberman：你说的是絮状体。
Dr. David Berson: The flocculus, right.
David Berson 博士：絮状体，对。
It's a critical place in the cerebellum where visual and vestibular information comes together, recording just the kinds of movements we were talking about, this image-stabilizing network.
这是小脑中视觉和前庭信息汇集的关键位置，记录我们正在谈论的运动类型，这个图像稳定网络。
It's all happening there, and there's learning happening there as well, so that if your vestibular apparatus is a little bit damaged somehow, your visual system is actually talking to your cerebellum, saying, "There's a problem here, there's an error." And your cerebellum is learning to do better by increasing the output of the vestibular system to compensate for whatever that loss was.
这一切都在那里发生，学习也在那里发生，所以如果你的前庭装置有一点损坏，你的视觉系统实际上会和你的小脑对话，说：“这里有问题，有错误。”你的小脑正在学习如何通过增加前庭系统的输出来弥补损失，从而做得更好。
So, it's a little error-correction system that's sort of typical of cerebellar function, and it can happen in many, many different domains.
所以，这是一个小纠错系统，是小脑功能的典型特征，它可以发生在很多很多不同的领域。
This is just one of the domains of sensorimotor integration that takes place there.
这只是那里发生的感觉运动整合的领域之一。
Andrew Huberman: I want to talk about an area of the brain that is rarely discussed, which is the midbrain.
Andrew Huberman：我想谈谈大脑中一个很少被讨论的区域，那就是中脑。
Dr. David Berson: Yeah.
大卫·伯森博士：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And for those that don't know, the midbrain is an area beneath the cortex.
Andrew Huberman：对于那些不知道的人来说，中脑是皮层下方的区域。
I guess we never really defined cortex.
我想我们从来没有真正定义过皮质。
So, it's kind of the outer layers, or are the outer layers of at least the mammalian brain or the human brain.
所以，它是一种外层，或者至少是哺乳动物大脑或人类大脑的外层。
But the midbrain is super interesting because it controls a lot of unconscious stuff, reflexes, et cetera.
但中脑非常有趣，因为它控制着很多无意识的东西、反射等等。
So, could you please tell us about the midbrain, about what it does?
那么，您能告诉我们有关中脑的信息吗？它的作用是什么？
Dr. David Berson: Yeah.
大卫·伯森博士：是的。
So, there's a lot of pieces there.
所以，那里有很多碎片。
I think the first thing to say is if you imagine the nervous system in your mind's eye, you see this big honking brain, and then there's this little thin wand that dangles down into your vertebral column, the spinal cord, and that's kind of your visual impression.
我认为首先要说的是，如果你想象一下你脑海中的神经系统，你会看到这个大而鸣叫的大脑，然后有一根细细的小魔杖垂在你的脊柱、脊髓上，这就是你的视觉印象。
Dr. David Berson: What you have to imagine is starting in the spinal cord, and working your way up into this big, magnificent brain, and what you would do as you enter the skull is get into a little place where the spinal cord kind of thickens out.
大卫·伯森博士：你必须想象的是从脊髓开始，一直进入这个巨大而宏伟的大脑，当你进入头骨时，你要做的就是进入一个脊髓变厚的小地方。
It still has that sort of long, skinny, trunk-like feeling.
它仍然有那种又长又瘦，像树干一样的感觉。
Andrew Huberman: Sort of like a paddle or a spoon shape.
Andrew Huberman：有点像桨或勺子的形状。
Dr. David Berson: Right, it starts to spread out a little bit, and that's because your evolution has packed more interesting goodies in there for processing information and generating movement.
大卫·伯森博士：是的，它开始散开一点，那是因为你们的进化已经包含了更多有趣的东西来处理信息和产生运动。
So, this midbrain you're talking about, is the last bit of this enlarged sort of spinal-cordy thing in your skull, which is really the brain stem is what we call it.
所以，你所说的中脑，是你头骨中这种扩大的脊髓东西的最后一部分，这实际上是我们所说的脑干。
The last bit of that, before you get to this relay up to the cortex, is the midbrain.
在到达皮层之前，最后一点是中脑。
Dr. David Berson: And there's a really important visual center there.
David Berson 博士：那里有一个非常重要的视觉中心。
It's called the superior colliculus.
它被称为上丘。
But this is where most of the action is in terms of interpreting visual input and organizing behavior around that.
但这是大部分行动的地方，即解释视觉输入并围绕其组织行为。
Dr. David Berson: You can sort of think about this region of the brain stem as a reflex center that can reorient the animal's gaze, or body, or maybe even attention to particular regions of space out there around the animal.
大卫·伯森博士：你可以将脑干的这个区域视为反射中心，它可以重新调整动物的目光或身体，甚至可能关注动物周围空间的特定区域。
And that could be for all kinds of reasons.
这可能有各种各样的原因。
I mean, it might be a predator just showed up in one corner of the forest, and you pick that up, and you're trying to avoid it.
我的意思是，它可能是一只掠食者刚刚出现在森林的一个角落，你发现了它，然后你试图避开它。
It might be...
可能是...
Andrew Huberman: Or just any movement.
Andrew Huberman：或者只是任何运动。
Dr. David Berson: Any movement, right?
David Berson 博士：有任何动静吗？
It might be that suddenly something splats on the page when you're reading a novel, and your eye reflexively looks at it.
当你读一本小说时，可能突然有什么东西落在书页上，你的眼睛条件反射地看着它。
You don't have to think about that.
你不必考虑这个。
That's a reflex.
这是一种反射。
But these are centers that emerged early in the evolution of brains like ours, to handle complicated visual events that have significance for the animal, in terms of space, where it is in space.
但这些中心是在像我们这样的大脑进化早期出现的，用于处理复杂的视觉事件，这些事件对动物来说具有重要意义，就空间而言，它在太空中。
And in fact, this same center actually gets input from all kinds of other sensory systems that take information from the external world, from particular locations, and where you might want to either avoid or approach things, according to their significance to you.
事实上，这个中心实际上从各种其他感觉系统获取输入，这些系统从外部世界、特定位置以及你可能想要避免或接近事物的地方获取信息，具体取决于它们对你的重要性。
Dr. David Berson: So, you get input from the touch system, and you get input from the auditory system.
David Berson 博士：所以，你从触摸系统获得输入，从听觉系统获得输入。
I worked for a while in rattlesnakes.
我在响尾蛇工作了一段时间。
They get input from a part of their warm sensors on their face, they're in these little pits.
他们从脸上的一部分温暖传感器获得输入，他们就在这些小坑里。
They have a version of an exteroceptive sensory system, that is, they're looking out into the world using a completely different set of sensors.
他们有一个版本的外感受感觉系统，也就是说，他们使用一组完全不同的传感器来观察世界。
They're using the same sensors that would feel the warmth on your face if you stood in front of a bonfire, except evolution has given them this very nice, specialized system that lets them image where the heat's coming from.
他们使用的传感器与你站在篝火前时会感受到你脸上的温暖的传感器相同，只不过进化给了他们这个非常好的、专门的系统，让他们能够想象热量来自哪里。
You can sort of do that anyway, right?
无论如何你都可以做到这一点，对吧？
If you walk around the fire, you can feel where the fire is from the heat hitting your face.
如果你绕着火走，你就能从脸上的热量感觉到火在哪里。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Is that the primary way in which they detect prey?
安德鲁·休伯曼：这是它们发现猎物的主要方式吗？
Dr. David Berson: They've just...
David Berson 博士：他们刚刚...
Dr. David Berson: It's one of the major ways.
David Berson 博士：这是主要方式之一。
And in fact, they use vision as well, and they bring these two systems together in the same place, in this tectum region, this brain stem.
事实上，他们也使用视觉，并将这两个系统聚集在同一个地方，在这个顶盖区域，这个脑干。
Andrew Huberman: I want to pause here just for one second.
Andrew Huberman：我想在这里暂停一秒钟。
I think what's so interesting about taste receptors, heat sensors, and vision, and all this integration, is that it really speaks to the fact that all these sensory neurons are trying to gather information, and stuff it into a system that can make meaningful decisions and actions.
我认为味觉感受器、热传感器和视觉以及所有这些整合的有趣之处在于，它确实说明了这样一个事实：所有这些感觉神经元都在试图收集信息，并将其填充到一个可以做出有意义的决策和行动的系统中。
Dr. David Berson: Right.
大卫·伯森博士：是的。
Dr. David Berson: Right.
大卫·伯森博士：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And that it really doesn't matter whether or not it's coming from eyes, or ears, or nose, or bottoms of feet, because in the end, it's just electricity flowing in.
安德鲁·休伯曼：无论它是来自眼睛、耳朵、鼻子还是脚底，这并不重要，因为最终，它只是电流流入。
Dr. David Berson: Sure.
大卫·伯森博士：当然。
Andrew Huberman: And so, it's placed in different locations on different animals depending on the particular needs of that animal.
Andrew Huberman：因此，根据该动物的特殊需求，它被放置在不同动物的不同位置。
Dr. David Berson: Right.
大卫·伯森博士：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Right.
安德鲁·休伯曼：对。
So maybe I'm feeling some heat on one side of my face, and I also smell something baking in the oven.
所以也许我感觉脸的一侧有些热，而且我还闻到了烤箱里烤的东西的味道。
Dr. David Berson: Right.
大卫·伯森博士：是的。
Andrew Huberman: So, now neither is particularly strong, but as you said, there's some corroboration.
Andrew Huberman：所以，现在两者都不是特别有力，但正如你所说，有一些佐证。
Dr. David Berson: Right.
大卫·伯森博士：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And that corroboration is occurring in the midbrain.
Andrew Huberman：这种佐证正在中脑中发生。
Dr. David Berson: Right.
大卫·伯森博士：是的。
And then, if you throw things into conflict, now the brain is confused, and that may be where your motion sickness comes from.
然后，如果你把事情陷入冲突，那么大脑就会变得混乱，这可能就是你晕车的根源。
So, as a brain, it's great to have as many sources of information as you can have, just like if you're a spy or a journalist, you want as much information as you can get about what's out there.
因此，作为大脑，拥有尽可能多的信息来源是件好事，就像你是间谍或记者一样，你想要尽可能多地了解外面的信息。
But if things conflict, that's problematic, right?
但如果事情发生冲突，那就有问题了，对吧？
Your sources are giving you different information about what's going on.
您的消息来源为您提供了有关正在发生的事情的不同信息。
Now you've got a problem on your hands.
现在你手上有个问题。
What do you publish?
你发布什么？
Andrew Huberman: This is important and a great segue for what I'd like to discuss next, which is the basal ganglia, this really interesting area of the brain that's involved in instructing us to do things and preventing us from doing things.
Andrew Huberman：这很重要，也是我接下来要讨论的一个很好的延续，即基底神经节，这是大脑中非常有趣的区域，涉及指导我们做事和阻止我们做事。
Dr. David Berson: Right.
大卫·伯森博士：是的。
Andrew Huberman: What are the basal ganglia, and what are their primary roles in controlling go-type behavior and no-go-type behavior?
Andrew Huberman：基底神经节是什么？它们在控制“走型”行为和“不走型”行为方面的主要作用是什么？
Dr. David Berson: Yeah, so I mean, the basal ganglia are sitting deep in what you would call the forebrain, so the highest levels of the brain.
大卫·伯森博士：是的，所以我的意思是，基底神经节位于所谓的前脑的深处，也就是大脑的最高层。
And it's deeply intertwined with cortical function.
它与皮质功能紧密相连。
The cortex can't really do what it needs to do without the help of the basal ganglia, and vice versa.
如果没有基底神经节的帮助，皮质就无法真正完成它需要做的事情，反之亦然。
And in a way, you can think about this logically, as saying, "If you have the ability to withhold behavior or to execute it, how do you decide which to do?"
在某种程度上，你可以逻辑地思考这个问题，就像说：“如果你有能力抑制行为或执行它，你如何决定做什么？”
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Dr. David Berson: Well, the cortex is going to have to do that thinking for you.
大卫·博森博士：嗯，大脑皮层必须为你做这样的思考。
You have to be looking at all the contingencies of your situation to decide: Is this a crazy move, or is this a really smart investment right now, or what?
你必须考虑你所处情况的所有意外情况来决定：这是一个疯狂的举动，还是现在这是一个非常明智的投资，还是什么？
Andrew Huberman: Right.
安德鲁·休伯曼：对。
I don't want to go out for a run in the morning, but I'm going to make myself go out for a run, or I'm having a great time out on a run, and I know I need to get back, but I kind of want to go another mile.
我不想早上出去跑步，但我会让自己出去跑步，或者我在跑步中度过了愉快的时光，我知道我需要回来，但我有点想再跑一英里。
Dr. David Berson: I mean, another great example is the marshmallow test for the little kids.
大卫·伯森博士：我的意思是，另一个很好的例子是针对小孩子的棉花糖测试。
They can get two marshmallows if they hold off just 30 seconds, initially.
如果他们最初只坚持 30 秒，就可以获得两个棉花糖。
Andrew Huberman: Oh yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哦，是的。
Dr. David Berson: They can have one right away.
David Berson 博士：他们可以立即拥有一个。
But if they can wait 30 seconds, they get two.
但如果他们能等 30 秒，他们就会得到两个。
So, that's the no-go, because their cortex is saying, "You know, I would really like to have two more than having one." But they're not going to get the two unless they can not reach for the one.
所以，这是不行的，因为他们的大脑皮层在说：“你知道，我真的希望多拥有两个，而不是一个。”但除非他们够不到其中一个，否则他们就不会得到这两个。
So, they've got to hold off the action.
所以，他们必须推迟行动。
Dr. David Berson: And that has to result from a cognitive process, so the cortex is involved in this in a major way.
大卫·伯森博士：这必须是认知过程的结果，因此皮层在很大程度上参与其中。
Andrew Huberman: Why do you think that some people have a harder time running these go/no-go circuits, and other people seem to have very low activation energy, we would say?
Andrew Huberman：我们会说，为什么你认为有些人很难运行这些通过/不通过电路，而其他人似乎具有非常低的激活能？
Dr. David Berson: Right.
大卫·伯森博士：是的。
Andrew Huberman: They have a task, they just lean into the task.
Andrew Huberman：他们有任务，他们只是专注于任务。
Dr. David Berson: Right.
大卫·伯森博士：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Whereas some people getting into task completion or things of that sort is very challenging for them.
Andrew Huberman：然而有些人完成任务或类似的事情对他们来说非常具有挑战性。
Dr. David Berson: I mean, I think it's a special case of a very general phenomenon, which is, brains are complicated, and the brains we have are the result of genetics and experience.
大卫·伯森博士：我的意思是，我认为这是一个非常普遍现象的特例，即大脑是复杂的，我们拥有的大脑是遗传和经验的结果。
And my genes are different from your genes, and my experiences are different from your experiences.
我的基因和你的基因不同，我的经历和你的经历不同。
So, the things that'll be easy or hard for us won't necessarily be aligned.
因此，对我们来说容易或困难的事情不一定是一致的。
They might just happen to be just because they are.
他们可能只是碰巧因为他们就是这样。
Dr. David Berson: But the point is that you're dealt a certain set of cards, you have a certain set of genes, you are handed a brain.
大卫·博森博士：但重点是，你会得到一组特定的牌，你有一组特定的基因，你会被赋予一个大脑。
You don't choose your brain, it's handed to you.
你无法选择你的大脑，它是交给你的。
But then there's all the stuff you can do with it.
但你可以用它做所有的事情。
You can learn to have new skills, or to act differently, or to show more restraint, which is kind of relevant to what we're talking about here.
你可以学习新技能，或者以不同的方式行事，或者表现出更多的克制，这与我们在这里讨论的内容相关。
Andrew Huberman: Right, of course, yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼： 是的，当然，是的。
All the structures that we're discussing are working in parallel.
我们正在讨论的所有结构都是并行工作的。
Dr. David Berson: Right.
大卫·伯森博士：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And there's a lot of changing cross-talk.
Andrew Huberman：而且有很多变化的相声。
So, let's talk about the cortex.
那么，我们来谈谈皮质。
We've worked our way up the so-called neuraxis, as the aficionados will know.
正如爱好者们所知，我们已经沿着所谓的神经轴向上发展。
So, we're in the cortex.
所以，我们在皮质中。
This is the seat of our higher consciousness, self-image, planning, and action.
这是我们更高意识、自我形象、计划和行动的所在地。
But as you mentioned, the cortex isn't just about that.
但正如你所提到的，皮质不仅仅如此。
It's got other regions that are involved in other things.
它还有涉及其他事情的其他区域。
So, maybe staying with the vision, let's talk a little bit about visual cortex.
所以，也许我们先谈谈视觉，我们来谈谈视觉皮层。
Andrew Huberman: You told me a story, an amazing story about the visual cortex, and it was somewhat of a sad story, unfortunately, about someone who had a stroke to visual cortex.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：你给我讲了一个故事，一个关于视觉皮层的奇妙故事，不幸的是，这是一个关于视觉皮层中风的人的悲伤故事。
Maybe if you would share that story, because I think it illustrates many important principles about what the cortex does.
也许您愿意分享这个故事，因为我认为它说明了有关皮层功能的许多重要原理。
Dr. David Berson: Sure.
大卫·伯森博士：当然。
So, the point is that all those of us who see have representations of the visual world in our visual cortex.
所以，关键是我们所有看到的人在我们的视觉皮层中都有视觉世界的表征。
What happens to somebody when they become blind because of problems in the eye, the retina, perhaps?
当某人因眼睛（也许是视网膜）问题而失明时，会发生什么？
Dr. David Berson: You have a big chunk of the cortex, this really valuable real estate for neural processing, that has come to expect input from the visual system, and there isn't any anymore.
大卫·伯森博士：你有一大块皮层，这是神经处理的真正宝贵的空间，它已经开始期待来自视觉系统的输入，但现在已经没有了。
So, you might think about that as fallow land, right?
所以，你可能会认为那是休耕地，对吧？
It's just unused by the nervous system, and that would be a pity, but it turns out that it is, in fact, used.
它只是未被神经系统使用，这将是遗憾的，但事实证明它实际上被使用了。
Dr. David Berson: And the case that you're talking about is of a woman who was blind from very early in her life, and who had risen through the ranks to a very high-level executive secretarial position in a major corporation.
大卫·伯森博士：您所谈论的案例是一位女士，她很早就失明了，后来在一家大公司晋升到了非常高级的执行秘书职位。
Dr. David Berson: And she was extremely good at Braille reading, and she had a Braille typewriter, and that's how everything was done.
大卫·伯森博士：她非常擅长阅读盲文，而且她有一台盲文打字机，一切都是这样完成的。
And apparently, she had a stroke and was discovered at work, collapsed, and they brought her to the hospital.
显然，她中风了，在工作中被发现，昏倒了，他们把她带到了医院。
And apparently, the neurologist who saw her when she finally came to said, "I've got good news and bad news.
显然，当她终于苏醒时见到她的神经科医生说：“我有一个好消息和一个坏消息。
Bad news is that you've had a stroke.
坏消息是您中风了。
The good news is that it was in an area of your brain you're not even using.
好消息是它位于你大脑中你甚至没有使用的区域。
It's your visual cortex, and I know you're blind from birth, so there shouldn't be any issue here." The problem was she had lost her ability to read Braille.
这是你的视觉皮层，我知道你生来就失明，所以这里不应该有任何问题。”问题是她失去了阅读盲文的能力。
Dr. David Berson: So, what appears to have been the case, and this has been confirmed, in other ways, by imaging experiments in humans, is that in people who are blind from very early in birth, the visual cortex gets repurposed as a center for processing tactile information.
大卫·伯森博士：所以，事实似乎是这样的，而且这一点已经通过人类成像实验以其他方式得到证实，在出生很早就失明的人中，视觉皮层被重新用作处理触觉信息的中心。
And especially, if you train to be a good Braille reader, you're actually reallocating somehow that real estate to your fingertips.
尤其是，如果您训练成为一名优秀的盲文阅读器，那么您实际上正在以某种方式将这些空间重新分配到您的指尖。
A part of the cortex that should be listening to the eyes.
皮质的一部分应该听眼睛的声音。
Dr. David Berson: So, that's an extreme level of plasticity, but what it shows is the visual cortex is kind of a general-purpose processing machine.
大卫·伯森博士：所以，这是一种极端的可塑性，但它表明视觉皮层是一种通用处理机器。
It's good at spatial information, and the skin of your fingers is just another spatial sense, and deprived of any other input, the brain seems smart enough, if you want to put it that way, to rewire itself to use that real estate for something useful.
它擅长空间信息，而你手指的皮肤只是另一种空间感，并且被剥夺了任何其他输入，大脑似乎足够聪明，如果你想这样说的话，可以重新连接自己以利用该空间来做一些有用的事情。
In this case, reading Braille.
在这种情况下，阅读盲文。
Andrew Huberman: Incredible.
安德鲁·休伯曼：难以置信。
Somewhat tragic, but incredible.
有点悲惨，但却令人难以置信。
At least in that case tragic.
至少在这种情况下是悲剧性的。
Dr. David Berson: Right, very informative.
David Berson 博士：是的，信息非常丰富。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Dr. David Berson: Right, very informative.
David Berson 博士：是的，信息非常丰富。
Andrew Huberman: Very informative.
安德鲁·休伯曼：信息非常丰富。
And of course it can go the other way too.
当然，也可以有相反的情况。
Dr. David Berson: Right.
大卫·伯森博士：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Where people can gain function in particular modalities, like improved hearing or tactile function, in the absence of vision.
Andrew Huberman：人们可以在没有视力的情况下获得特定模式的功能，例如改善听力或触觉功能。
Dr. David Berson: Right.
大卫·伯森博士：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Listen, David, this has been wonderful.
安德鲁·休伯曼：听着，大卫，这太棒了。
Dr. David Berson: It's been a blast.
David Berson 博士：真是太棒了。
Andrew Huberman: We really appreciate you taking the time to do this.
Andrew Huberman：我们非常感谢您抽出时间来做这件事。
As people probably realize by now, you're an incredible wealth of knowledge about the entire nervous system.
人们现在可能已经意识到，您拥有关于整个神经系统的令人难以置信的丰富知识。
Today, we just hit this top contour of a number of different areas to give a flavor of the different ways that the nervous system works and is organized, and how that's put together, how these areas are talking to one another.
今天，我们刚刚触及了许多不同区域的顶部轮廓，以了解神经系统工作和组织的不同方式，以及它们如何组合在一起，以及这些区域如何相互交谈。
Andrew Huberman: What I love about you is that you're such an incredible educator and have taught so many students over the years.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我喜欢你的地方在于，你是一位令人难以置信的教育家，多年来教过很多学生。
But also, for me personally, as friends, but also any time that I want to touch into the beauty of the nervous system, and start thinking about new problems and ways that the nervous system is doing things that I hadn't thought about, I call you.
而且，对我个人而言，作为朋友，而且每当我想要接触神经系统之美，并开始思考新问题以及神经系统做我没有想到的事情的方式时，我都会给你打电话。
So, please forgive me for the calls past, present, and future, unless you change your number, and even if you do, I'll be calling.
所以，请原谅我过去、现在和将来的电话，除非你改变你的号码，即使你改变了，我也会打电话。
Dr. David Berson: It's been such a blast, Andy, and this has been a great session.
David Berson 博士：安迪，这真是太棒了，这是一次很棒的会议。
And it's always fun talking to you.
和你说话总是很有趣。
It always gets my brain racing.
它总是让我的大脑飞速运转。
So, thank you.
所以，谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman: Thank you.
安德鲁·休伯曼：谢谢。