Enhance Your Learning Speed & Health Using Neuroscience Based Protocols | Dr. Poppy Crum

Andrew Huberman: Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science, and science-based tools for everyday life.

Andrew Huberman：欢迎来到 Huberman 实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学以及基于科学的日常生活工具。

Andrew Huberman: I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，我是斯坦福大学医学院的神经生物学和眼科教授。

My guest today is Dr. Poppy Crum.

今天我的客人是 Poppy Crum 博士。

Dr. Poppy Crum is a neuroscientist, a professor at Stanford, and the former chief scientist at Dolby Laboratories.

Poppy Crum 博士是一位神经科学家、斯坦福大学教授、杜比实验室前首席科学家。

Her work focuses on how technology can accelerate neuroplasticity and learning, and generally enrich our life experience.

她的工作重点是技术如何加速神经可塑性和学习，并普遍丰富我们的生活经历。

Andrew Huberman: You've no doubt heard about, and perhaps use, wearables and sleep technologies that can monitor your sleep, tell you how much slow wave sleep you're getting, how much REM sleep, and technologies that can control the temperature of your sleep environment and your room environment.

Andrew Huberman：您无疑听说过，也许也使用过可穿戴设备和睡眠技术，它们可以监测您的睡眠，告诉您慢波睡眠时间、快速眼动睡眠时间，以及可以控制睡眠环境和房间环境温度的技术。

Well, you can soon expect wearables and hearable technologies to be part of your life.

那么，您很快就会期望可穿戴设备和可听设备技术成为您生活的一部分。

Hearable technologies are, as the name suggests, technologies that can hear your voice and the voice of other people, and deduce what is going to be best for your immediate health and your states of mind.

顾名思义，可听技术是可以听到您和其他人的声音，并推断出什么对您的直接健康和精神状态最有利的技术。

Andrew Huberman: Believe it or not, these technologies will understand your brain states, your goals, and it will make changes to your home and working and other environments so that you can focus better, relax more thoroughly, and connect with other people on a deeper level.

Andrew Huberman：不管你信不信，这些技术将了解你的大脑状态、你的目标，并且它将改变你的家庭、工作和其他环境，以便你可以更好地集中注意力，更彻底地放松，并与其他人进行更深层次的联系。

As Poppy explains, all of this might seem kind of space-age and maybe even a little aversive or scary now, but she explains how it will vastly improve life for both kids and adults, and indeed, increase human-human empathy.

正如 Poppy 所解释的那样，所有这一切可能看起来有点太空时代的感觉，甚至可能有点令人厌恶或害怕，但她解释了这将如何极大地改善儿童和成人的生活，并且实际上会增加人与人之间的同理心。

During today's episode, you'll realize that Poppy is a true out-of-the-box thinker and scientist.

在今天的节目中，您会意识到 Poppy 是一位真正的开箱即用的思想家和科学家。

Andrew Huberman: She has a really unique story, she discovered she has perfect pitch at a young age, she explains what that is, and how that shaped her worldview and her work.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：她有一个非常独特的故事，她发现自己在年轻时就有完美的音调，她解释了那是什么，以及这如何塑造了她的世界观和工作。

Poppy also graciously built a zero-cost step-by-step protocol for all of you.

Poppy 还慷慨地为大家构建了一个零成本的分步协议。

It allows you to build a custom AI tool to improve at any skill you want, and to build better health protocols and routines.

它允许您构建自定义人工智能工具来提高您想要的任何技能，并建立更好的健康协议和例程。

I should point out that you don't need to know how to program in order to use this tool that she's built.

我应该指出，您不需要知道如何编程就可以使用她构建的这个工具。

Anyone can use it, and as you'll see, it's extremely useful.

任何人都可以使用它，正如您将看到的，它非常有用。

We provide a link to it in the show note captions.

我们在节目注释标题中提供了指向它的链接。

Andrew Huberman: Today's conversation is unlike any that we've previously had on the podcast.

Andrew Huberman：今天的对话与我们之前在播客上进行的对话不同。

It's a true glimpse into the future, and it also points you to new tools that you can use now to improve your life.

这是对未来的真实一瞥，它还为您指明了现在可以使用的新工具来改善您的生活。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。

In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.

为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。

And now for my conversation with Dr. Poppy Crum.

现在是我与 Poppy Crum 博士的对话。

Andrew Huberman: Dr. Poppy Crum, welcome.

Andrew Huberman：Poppy Crum 博士，欢迎光临。

Poppy Crum: Thanks, Andy.

罂粟花：谢谢，安迪。

It's great to be here.

很高兴来到这里。

Andrew Huberman: Great to see you again.

安德鲁·休伯曼：很高兴再次见到你。

We should let people know now, we were graduate students together.

我们现在应该让人们知道，我们一起是研究生。

But that's not why you're here.

但这不是你来这里的原因。

You're here because you do incredibly original work, you've worked in so many different domains of technology, neuroscience, et cetera.

你来到这里是因为你做了令人难以置信的原创工作，你在技术、神经科学等许多不同领域工作过。

Today, I want to talk about a lot of things, but I want to start off by talking about neuroplasticity, this incredible ability of our nervous systems to change in response to experience.

今天，我想谈论很多事情，但我想从神经可塑性开始，神经可塑性是我们的神经系统根据经验而改变的不可思议的能力。

I know how I think about neuroplasticity, but I want to know how you think about neuroplasticity.

我知道我如何看待神经可塑性，但我想知道你如何看待神经可塑性。

Andrew Huberman: In particular, I want to know, do you think our brains are much more plastic than most of us believe?

安德鲁·休伯曼：我特别想知道，你认为我们的大脑比我们大多数人想象的更具可塑性吗？

Can we change much more than we think, and we just haven't accessed the ways to do that?

我们是否可以做出比我们想象的更多的改变，而我们只是还没有找到实现这一目标的方法？

Or, do you think that our brains are pretty fixed, and in order to make progress as a species, we're going to have to, I don't know, create robots or something to do the work that we're not able to do because our brains are fixed?

或者，你是否认为我们的大脑是相当固定的，为了作为一个物种取得进步，我们将不得不，我不知道，创造机器人或其他东西来完成我们无法完成的工作，因为我们的大脑是固定的？

Andrew Huberman: But let's start off by just getting your take on what neuroplasticity is, and what you think the limits on it are.

Andrew Huberman：但是，让我们首先了解一下什么是神经可塑性，以及您认为它的限制是什么。

Poppy Crum: I do think we're much more plastic than we talk about or we realize in our daily lives.

Poppy Crum：我确实认为我们比我们在日常生活中谈论或意识到的更具塑料性。

And, just to your point about creating robots, the more we create robots, there's neuroplasticity that comes with using robots as humans, when we use them in partnerships or as tools to accelerate our capabilities.

而且，就你关于创造机器人的观点而言，我们创造的机器人越多，当我们将机器人用作伙伴关系或作为加速我们能力的工具时，就会将机器人用作人类，从而带来神经可塑性。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: So, neuroplasticity, the way that I resonate with it a lot is trying to understand, and this is what I've done a lot of in my career, is thinking about building and developing technologies, but with an understanding of how they shape our brain.

Poppy Crum：所以，神经可塑性，我与之产生很多共鸣的方式是试图理解，这就是我在职业生涯中所做的很多事情，就是思考构建和开发技术，但要了解它们如何塑造我们的大脑。

Poppy Crum: Everything we engage with in our daily lives, whether it's the statistics of our environments and our context, or the technologies we use on a daily basis, are shaping our brains through neuroplasticity.

Poppy Crum：我们日常生活中涉及的一切，无论是环境和背景的统计数据，还是我们日常使用的技术，都在通过神经可塑性塑造我们的大脑。

Some more than others.

有些比其他更多。

Some we know as we age are very dependent on how attentive and engaged we are, as opposed to passively just consuming and changing.

我们知道，有些人随着年龄的增长，很大程度上取决于我们的专注程度和投入程度，而不是被动地消费和改变。

Poppy Crum: But, we are in a place where everyone, I believe, needs to be thinking more about how the technologies they're using, especially in the age of AI and immersive technologies, how they are shaping or architecting our brains as we move forward.

Poppy Crum：但是，我相信，我们现在所处的位置，每个人都需要更多地思考他们正在使用的技术，尤其是在人工智能和沉浸式技术时代，随着我们的前进，它们如何塑造或构建我们的大脑。

You go to any neuroscience 101 medical school textbook, and there's something, you'll see a few pages on something called the homunculus.

你翻阅任何一本神经科学 101 医学院教科书，你会看到有几页内容是关于一种叫做“小人”的东西。

Now, what is the homunculus?

现在，人造人是什么？

Poppy Crum: It's a data representation, but it'll be this sort of funny-looking creature when you see it.

Poppy Crum：这是一种数据表示，但当你看到它时，它会是一种看起来很有趣的生物。

But that picture of this sort of distorted human that you're looking at is really just a data representation of how many cells in your brain are helping, coding, and representing information for your sense of touch, right?

但是你所看到的这种扭曲的人类的图片实际上只是你大脑中有多少细胞正在为你的触觉提供帮助、编码和表示信息的数据表示，对吗？

Poppy Crum: And that image though, and this is where things get kind of funny, that image comes from Wilder Penfield back in the '40s.

Poppy Crum：不过那张图片，这就是事情变得有点有趣的地方，这张图片来自 40 年代的 Wilder Penfield。

He recorded the somatosensory cells of patients just before they were to have surgery for epilepsy and such.

他记录了患者在接受癫痫等手术之前的体感细胞。

And since we don't have pain receptors in our cortex, you could have this awake human and be able to touch different parts of their brain and ask them to report what sensation they felt on their bodies.

由于我们的皮质中没有疼痛感受器，因此您可以让这个清醒的人触摸他们大脑的不同部分，并要求他们报告他们在身体上感受到的感觉。

Poppy Crum: And so, he mapped that part of their cortex, and then that's how we ended up with the homunculus.

Poppy Crum：所以，他绘制了他们皮质的那部分地图，然后这就是我们最终得到小人的方式。

And you'll see, it'll have bigger lips, it'll have smaller parts of your back, and the areas where you just don't have the same sensitivities.

你会发现，它的嘴唇会更大，你背部的部分会更小，而你的敏感度则不同。

Well, fast-forward to today.

好吧，快进到今天。

When you look at that homunculus, one of the things I always will ask people to think about is, "What's wrong with this image?" This is an image from 1940 that is still in every textbook.

当你看到那个小人时，我总是会要求人们思考的一件事是，“这个图像有什么问题？”这是 1940 年的一幅图像，至今仍出现在每本教科书中。

Poppy Crum: And, any Stanford student will look at it, and they'll immediately say, "Well, the thumb should be bigger," because we do this all day long, and "I've got more sensitivity in my fingers because I'm always typing on my mobile device." Which is absolutely true.

Poppy Crum：而且，任何斯坦福大学的学生都会看到它，他们会立即说，“嗯，拇指应该更大，”因为我们整天都这样做，并且“我的手指更加敏感，因为我总是在移动设备上打字。”这是绝对正确的。

Or, maybe they'll say something like, "Well, the ankles are the same size, and we drive cars now a lot more than we did in the '40s." Or maybe if I live different part of the world, I drive on one side versus the other.

或者，也许他们会说，“好吧，脚踝的尺寸是一样的，而且我们现在比 40 年代开车的次数多得多。”或者，如果我住在世界的不同地方，我会偏向一边开车，而不是偏向另一边。

Poppy Crum: And in a few years, we probably won't be driving, and those resources get optimized elsewhere.

Poppy Crum：几年后，我们可能不会开车，这些资源会在其他地方得到优化。

So, what the homunculus is, is it's a representation of how our brain has allocated resources to help us be successful, and those resources are the limited cells we have that support whatever we need to flourish in our world.

所以，小人是什么，它代表了我们的大脑如何分配资源来帮助我们取得成功，而这些资源是我们拥有的有限细胞，支持我们在世界上蓬勃发展所需的一切。

Poppy Crum: And the beauty of that is, when you develop expertise, you develop more support, more resources go to helping you do that thing, but they also get more specific.

Poppy Crum：这样做的美妙之处在于，当你发展专业知识时，你会获得更多支持，更多资源来帮助你做那件事，但它们也会变得更加具体。

Poppy Crum: They develop more specificity so that, I might have suddenly a lot more cells in my brain devoted to helping me.

Poppy Crum：它们发展出更多的特异性，这样，我的大脑中可能会突然有更多的细胞致力于帮助我。

You know, I'm a violinist, and well, my left hand, my right hemisphere, and on my somatosensory cortex, I'm going to have a lot more cells that are helping me feel with my fingers, and the tips of everything so that I can be fluid and more virtuosic.

你知道，我是一名小提琴手，我的左手，我的右半球，在我的体感皮层上，我将有更多的细胞帮助我用手指和一切的尖端来感觉，这样我就可以变得流畅和更加精湛。

But that means I have more cells, but they're more specified.

但这意味着我有更多的单元格，但它们更具体。

Poppy Crum: They're giving me more sensitivity, they're giving me more data that's differentiated.

Poppy Crum：他们给了我更多的敏感性，他们给了我更多差异化的数据。

And that's what my brain needs and that's what my brain's responding to.

这就是我的大脑所需要的，这就是我的大脑所做出的反应。

And so, when we think about that, my practice as a musician versus my practice playing video games, all of these things influence our brain, and influence our plasticity.

因此，当我们思考这一点时，我作为音乐家的练习与我玩电子游戏的练习，所有这些都会影响我们的大脑，并影响我们的可塑性。

Poppy Crum: Now, where things get kind of interesting to me and sort of my obsession on that side is, every time we engage with the technology, it's going to shape our brain, right?

Poppy Crum：现在，事情对我来说变得有点有趣，而我在这方面的痴迷是，每次我们接触技术时，它都会塑造我们的大脑，对吗？

It's both our environments, but our environments are changing.

这都是我们的环境，但我们的环境正在发生变化。

Those are shaping who we are.

这些正在塑造我们。

I think you can look at people's hearing thresholds and predict what city they live in.

我认为你可以通过观察人们的听力阈值来预测他们居住在哪个城市。

Andrew Huberman: Really?

安德鲁·休伯曼：真的吗？

Poppy Crum: Absolutely, yes.

Poppy Crum：当然，是的。

Andrew Huberman: Can you just briefly explain hearing thresholds and why that would be?

Andrew Huberman：您能简单解释一下听力阈值以及为什么会这样吗？

Poppy Crum: Why that would be?

Poppy Crum：为什么会这样呢？

Andrew Huberman: I was visiting the city of Chicago a couple years ago.

安德鲁·休伯曼：几年前我访问了芝加哥市。

Beautiful city, amazing food, love the people, very loud city, wide downtown streets, not a ton of trees compared to what I'm used to, and I was like, "Wow, it's really loud here."

美丽的城市，美味的食物，热爱这里的人们，非常吵闹的城市，宽阔的市中心街道，与我习惯的相比没有很多树木，我当时想，“哇，这里真的很吵。”

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Poppy Crum: Mm-hmm.

Poppy Crum：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: And I grew up in the suburbs, got out as quickly as I could, don't like the suburbs.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我在郊区长大，尽可能快地离开，不喜欢郊区。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Sorry, suburb dwellers, not for me.

Andrew Huberman：对不起，郊区居民，不适合我。

I like the wilderness, and I like cities.

我喜欢荒野，也喜欢城市。

But you're telling me that you can actually predict people's hearing thresholds for loudness simply based on where they were raised or where they currently live?

但你告诉我，你实际上可以仅仅根据人们的出生地或目前居住地来预测他们的响度听力阈值？

Poppy Crum: In part, it can be both, right?

Poppy Crum：在某种程度上，两者都可以，对吧？

Because cities have sonic imprints, types of noise, things that are very loud cities, but also what's creating that noise, right?

因为城市有声音印记、噪音类型，城市噪音很大，但也有产生噪音的原因，对吗？

That's often unique.

这往往是独一无二的。

The inputs, the types of vehicles, the types of density, people, and even the construction in those environments.

这些环境中的投入、车辆类型、密度类型、人员，甚至建筑。

It is changing what noise exists.

它正在改变噪音的存在。

That's shaping people's hearing thresholds.

这正在塑造人们的听力阈值。

Poppy Crum: At the lowest level, it's also shaping their sensitivities.

Poppy Crum：在最低层面上，这也塑造了他们的敏感性。

If you're used to hearing certain animals in your environment and they come with, you know, you should be heightened to a certain response in that, you're going to develop increased sensitivity to that, right?

如果你习惯于在你的环境中听到某些动物的声音，并且它们伴随而来，你知道，你应该提高对某种反应的反应，你会对此产生更高的敏感性，对吗？

Whereas if it's really abnormal to...

但如果真的不正常的话...

I hear chickens.

我听到鸡叫声

I have a neighbor who has chickens in the city.

我有一个邻居在城里养鸡。

Andrew Huberman: Roosters too?

安德鲁·休伯曼：还有公鸡吗？

Poppy Crum: Yes.

罂粟花粉：是的。

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman: Okay.

安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。

I grew up near a rooster.

我是在公鸡附近长大的。

Poppy Crum: In San Francisco.

Poppy Crum：在旧金山。

Poppy Crum: There you go.

Poppy Crum：给你。

Andrew Huberman: I can still hear that rooster.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我仍然能听到那只公鸡的声音。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Those sounds are embedded deeply in my mind.

Andrew Huberman：这些声音深深地印在我的脑海中。

Poppy Crum: There's the semantic context and then just the sort of spectrum, right?

Poppy Crum：有语义上下文，然后就是频谱，对吧？

And the intensity of that spectrum, meaning, when I say spectrum, I mean the different frequency amplitudes, and what that shaping's like.

频谱的强度，意思是，当我说频谱时，我指的是不同的频率幅度，以及形状是什么样的。

Andrew Huberman: High pitch, low pitch, this kind of thing.

Andrew Huberman：高音、低音，诸如此类。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

And that affects how your neural system is changing, even at the lowest level of what your ear, your brain, your cochlea is getting exposed to, but then also that would be the lower level, what sort of noise damage might exist, what exposures, but then also then there's the amplification of coming from your higher level areas that are helping you know that these frequencies are more important in your context, in your environment.

这会影响你的神经系统如何变化，即使是在你的耳朵、你的大脑、你的耳蜗所接触到的最低水平上，但也会是较低的水平，可能存在什么样的噪音损害，什么暴露，而且还有来自你更高水平区域的放大，帮助你知道这些频率在你的背景、你的环境中更重要。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: There's a funny, like this is kind of funny, there was a film called, I think it's "The Sound of Silence," and I love Peter Sarsgaard, he was one of the actors in it, and it was sort of meant to be a bit fantastical, or is that word?

Poppy Crum：有一个有趣的事情，就像这有点有趣，有一部电影叫《沉默之声》，我喜欢彼得·萨斯加德，他是其中的演员之一，这有点奇怪，或者是这个词吗？

Is that the right word?

这个词用得对吗？

But in fact, to me...

但事实上，对我来说...

So, the filmmakers had talked to me a lot, and to inform this sort of main character and the way he behaved, because I have absolute pitch, and there were certain things that they were trying to emulate in this film.

所以，电影制片人和我谈了很多，并告诉我这种主角和他的行为方式，因为我有绝对的音调，而且他们试图在这部电影中模仿某些东西。

Poppy Crum: He ends up being this person who tunes people's lives.

Poppy Crum：他最终成为了调节人们生活的人。

He'll walk into their environments and be like, "Oh, things are going badly at work or your relationships because you've got this tritone.

他会走进他们的环境，然后说：“哦，工作或人际关系进展得很糟糕，因为你有这种三全音。

Your water heater is making this pitch, and your teapot is at this, and you have to."

你的热水器正在这样做，你的茶壶也正在这样做，你必须这么做。”

Andrew Huberman: Oh my god, this would go over so well in LA.

Andrew Huberman：天哪，这在洛杉矶会很受欢迎。

People would pay millions of dollars in Los Angeles.

在洛杉矶，人们愿意支付数百万美元。

Poppy Crum: It's totally funny.

Poppy Crum：这真是太有趣了。

Andrew Huberman: Do you do this for people?

安德鲁·休伯曼：你这样做是为了人们吗？

Poppy Crum: No.

罂粟花粉：没有。

Andrew Huberman: Okay, okay.

安德鲁·休伯曼：好的，好的。

Poppy Crum: But I will tell you, I will walk into hotel rooms and immediately if I hear something, I'm moved.

Poppy Crum：但我会告诉你，我会走进酒店房间，如果我听到什么，我就会立即感动。

And so, that is...

那么，那就是...

Andrew Huberman: Because you have perfect pitch.

Andrew Huberman：因为你有完美的音调。

Could you define perfect pitch?

你能定义完美音高吗？

Does that mean that you can always hit a note perfectly with your voice?

这是否意味着您总能用自己的声音完美地击中一个音符？

Poppy Crum: There is no such thing as perfect pitch.

Poppy Crum：没有完美的音调。

There's absolute pitch.

有绝对的音高。

And so the thing, only because, the idea of...

所以这件事，只是因为，这个想法......

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: So, like, "Ah." That would be A equal 440 hertz, right?

Poppy Crum：所以，就像“啊”。 A 等于 440 赫兹，对吧？

But that's a standard that we use in modern time, and the different...

但这是我们现代使用的标准，而不同的......

What A is has actually changed throughout our lives, with aesthetic, with what people liked, with the tools we used to create music, and in the Baroque era, A was 415 hertz, and that...

A 的含义在我们的一生中实际上已经发生了变化，随着审美的变化，随着人们的喜好，随着我们用来创作音乐的工具的变化，在巴洛克时代，A 是 415 赫兹，而且......

Andrew Huberman: Can you hit that?

安德鲁·休伯曼：你能打到吗？

Poppy Crum: "Ah"

罂粟花：“啊”

Andrew Huberman: Awesome.

安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。

Poppy Crum: And, in any case...

Poppy Crum：而且，无论如何……

So that's why it's absolute, because guess what?

这就是为什么它是绝对的，因为你猜怎么着？

As my basilar membrane gets more rigid as my age or my temporal processing slows down, my brain's going to still think I'm singing 440 hertz, but it might not be.

当我的基底膜随着我的年龄或我的时间处理速度减慢而变得更加僵硬时，我的大脑仍然会认为我在唱歌 440 赫兹，但事实可能并非如此。

Andrew Huberman: Basilar membrane is a portion of the internal ear that convert sound waves into electrical signals, right?

Andrew Huberman：基底膜是内耳的一部分，可将声波转换为电信号，对吗？

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Okay, fair enough?

安德鲁·休伯曼：好吧，够公平吗？

Poppy Crum: Well, mechanically.

Poppy Crum：嗯，机械地。

It moves the hair cells that help...

它移动毛细胞，帮助...

Andrew Huberman: I'm talking to an auditory physiologist here.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我正在和一位听觉生理学家交谈。

Andrew Huberman: Right, right, right.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：对，对，对。

Poppy Crum: Yeah, yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的，是的。

Andrew Huberman: I teach auditory physiology, but I want to just make sure, because I'm sitting across from an expert.

Andrew Huberman：我教听觉生理学，但我只想确定一下，因为我坐在一位专家对面。

Andrew Huberman: I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, David.

Andrew Huberman：我想稍微休息一下，并向我们的赞助商之一 David 表示感谢。

David makes a protein bar unlike any other.

大卫制作的蛋白质棒与众不同。

It has 28 grams of protein, only 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar.

它含有 28 克蛋白质，仅 150 卡路里，零克糖。

That's right, 28 grams of protein and 75% of its calories come from protein.

没错，28克蛋白质，其75%的热量都来自于蛋白质。

This is 50% higher than the next-closest protein bar.

这比第二接近的蛋白质棒高出 50%。

David protein bars also taste amazing.

大卫蛋白棒的味道也很棒。

Even the texture is amazing.

就连质感也令人惊叹。

Andrew Huberman: My favorite bar is the chocolate chip cookie dough, but then again, I also like the new chocolate peanut butter flavor and the chocolate brownie flavor.

Andrew Huberman：我最喜欢的巧克力棒是巧克力饼干面团，但话又说回来，我也喜欢新的巧克力花生酱口味和巧克力布朗尼口味。

Basically, I like all the flavors a lot.

基本上，所有的口味我都很喜欢。

They're all incredibly delicious.

它们都非常美味。

In fact, the toughest challenge is knowing which ones to eat on which days and how many times per day.

事实上，最艰巨的挑战是知道哪一天吃哪些食物以及每天吃多少次。

I limit myself to two per day, but I absolutely love them.

我限制自己每天只能吃两个，但我绝对喜欢它们。

Andrew Huberman: With David, I'm able to get 28 grams of protein in the calories of a snack, which makes it easy to hit my protein goals of one gram of protein per pound of body weight per day, and it allows me to do so without ingesting too many calories.

Andrew Huberman：有了 David，我可以在一份零食的卡路里中获得 28 克蛋白质，这让我很容易达到每天每磅体重 1 克蛋白质的蛋白质目标，而且我可以在不摄入太多卡路里的情况下做到这一点。

I'll eat a David protein bar most afternoons as a snack, and I always keep one with me when I'm out of the house or traveling.

大多数下午我都会吃大卫蛋白棒作为零食，当我出门或旅行时，我总是随身携带一根。

They're incredibly delicious, and given that they have 28 grams of protein, they're really satisfying for having just 150 calories.

它们非常美味，而且含有 28 克蛋白质，仅含 150 卡路里热量就已经很令人满意了。

Andrew Huberman: If you'd like to try David, you can go to davidprotein.com/huberman.

Andrew Huberman：如果您想尝试 David，可以访问 david Protein.com/huberman。

Again, that's davidprotein.com/huberman.

同样，这是 david Protein.com/huberman。

Andrew Huberman: Today's episode is also brought to us by Helix Sleep.

Andrew Huberman：今天的节目也是由 Helix Sleep 为我们带来的。

Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep needs.

Helix Sleep 生产根据您独特的睡眠需求定制的床垫和枕头。

Now, I've spoken many times before on this and other podcasts about the fact that getting a great night's sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance.

现在，我之前已经在这个播客和其他播客中多次谈到这样一个事实：睡个好觉是心理健康、身体健康和表现的基础。

Now, the mattress you sleep on makes a huge difference in the quality of sleep that you get each night.

现在，您所睡的床垫会对您每晚的睡眠质量产生巨大影响。

Andrew Huberman: How soft it is or how firm it is all play into your comfort and need to be tailored to your unique sleep needs.

Andrew Huberman：它的柔软程度或硬度都会影响您的舒适度，并且需要根据您独特的睡眠需求进行定制。

If you go to the Helix website, you can take a brief two-minute quiz, and it will ask you questions such as, "Do you sleep on your back, your side, or your stomach?

如果你访问 Helix 网站，你可以做一个两分钟的简短测验，它会问你一些问题，比如“你睡的是仰卧、侧卧还是俯卧？

Do you tend to run hot or cold during the night?" Things of that sort.

你晚上容易发热还是怕冷？”诸如此类的事情。

Maybe you know the answers to those questions, maybe you don't.

也许您知道这些问题的答案，也许您不知道。

Either way, Helix will match you to the ideal mattress for you.

无论哪种方式，Helix 都会为您匹配理想的床垫。

For me, that turned out to be the Dusk mattress.

对我来说，那是黄昏床垫。

I started sleeping on a Dusk mattress about three and a half years ago, and it's been far and away the best sleep that I've ever had.

大约三年半前，我开始睡在 Dusk 床垫上，这无疑是我睡过的最好的睡眠。

Andrew Huberman: If you'd like to try Helix Sleep, you can go to helixsleep.com/huberman, take that two-minute sleep quiz, and Helix will match you to a mattress that's customized to you.

Andrew Huberman：如果您想尝试 Helix Sleep，您可以访问 helixsleep.com/huberman，参加两分钟的睡眠测验，Helix 将为您匹配一张为您定制的床垫。

Right now, Helix is giving up to 27% off all mattress orders.

目前，Helix 为所有床垫订单提供高达 27% 的折扣。

Again, that's helixsleep.com/huberman to get up to 27% off.

再次强调，helixsleep.com/huberman 提供高达 27% 的折扣。

Andrew Huberman: Okay, so our brains are customized to our experience.

Andrew Huberman：好的，我们的大脑是根据我们的经历定制的。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Especially our childhood experience, but also our adult experience.

安德鲁·休伯曼：尤其是我们的童年经历，也是我们成年的经历。

Poppy Crum: Yes.

罂粟花粉：是的。

Andrew Huberman: You mentioned the homunculus.

安德鲁·休伯曼：你提到了侏儒。

Poppy Crum: Yes.

罂粟花粉：是的。

Andrew Huberman: The representation of the body surface, and you said something that I just have to pick up on and ask some questions about, which is that this hypothetical Stanford student, could be any student anywhere, says, "Wait, nowadays, we spend a lot of time writing with our thumbs and thinking as we write with our thumbs."

安德鲁·休伯曼：身体表面的表示，你说了一些我必须接受并提出一些问题的事情，那就是这个假设的斯坦福大学学生，可以是任何地方的任何学生，他说，“等等，现在，我们花了很多时间用拇指写字，并在用拇指写字时思考。”

Poppy Crum: Mm-hmm.

Poppy Crum：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: Mm-hmm.

Poppy Crum：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: And emoting, right?

Andrew Huberman：还有情绪化，对吧？

When we text with our thumbs, we're sometimes involved in an emotional exchange.

当我们用拇指发短信时，我们有时会参与情感交流。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: My question is this.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我的问题是这样的。

The last 15 years or so have represented an unprecedented time of new technology integration, right?

过去 15 年左右的时间是新技术整合史无前例的时期，对吧？

I mean, the smartphone.

我的意思是，智能手机。

Poppy Crum: Mm-hmm.

Poppy Crum：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Texting.

安德鲁·休伯曼：发短信。

And when I text, I realized that I'm hearing a voice in my head as I text, which is my voice, because if I'm texting outward, I'm sending a text.

当我发短信时，我意识到我在发短信时听到脑子里有一个声音，这是我的声音，因为如果我向外发短信，我就是在发送短信。

But then, I'm also internalizing the voice of the person writing to me if I know them.

但是，如果我认识给我写信的人，我也会内化他们的声音。

Poppy Crum: Mm-hmm.

Poppy Crum：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: But it's coming through filtered by my brain, right?

Andrew Huberman：但它是经过我的大脑过滤的，对吧？

So, it's like...

所以，就像...

I'm not trying to micro-dissect something here for the sake of micro-dissection, but the conversation that we have by text, it's all happening in our own head.

我并不是为了微观解剖而试图对某些东西进行微观解剖，而是我们通过文本进行的对话，这一切都发生在我们自己的脑海中。

But there are two or more players.

但有两个或更多玩家。

Group texts was too complicated to even consider right now.

群组短信太复杂了，现在甚至无法考虑。

But what is that transformation really about?

但这种转变到底是为了什么呢？

Previously, I would write you a letter, I would send you a letter, or I'd write you an email, I'd send you an email.

以前，我会给你写一封信，我会给你发一封信，或者我会给你写一封电子邮件，我会给你发一封电子邮件。

Andrew Huberman: And so, the process was really slowed.

Andrew Huberman：因此，这个过程确实变慢了。

Now, you can be in a conversation with somebody that's really fast back and forth.

现在，您可以与某人进行非常快速的来回对话。

Poppy Crum: Mm-hmm.

Poppy Crum：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Right?

安德鲁·休伯曼：对吗？

Some people can type fast, and even email fast, but nothing like what you can do with text, right?

有些人可以快速打字，甚至可以快速发送电子邮件，但没有什么比你可以用文本做的，对吧？

I can even know when you're thinking because it's dot, dot, dot, or you're writing, right?

我什至可以知道你什么时候在思考，因为它是点，点，点，或者你正在写作，对吗？

And so, is it possible that we've now allocated an entire region of the homunculus, or of some other region of cortex brain to conversation that prior to 2010 or so, the brain just was not involved in conversations of any sort?

那么，我们现在是否有可能将小人的整个区域或大脑皮层的其他区域分配给对话，而在 2010 年左右之前，大脑并没有参与任何类型的对话？

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: In other words, we now have the integration of writing with thumbs, that's new, hearing our own voice, hearing the hypothetical voice of the other person at the other end, and doing that all at rapid speed.

Andrew Huberman：换句话说，我们现在已经集成了用拇指书写，这是新的，听到我们自己的声音，听到另一端另一个人的假设声音，并以快速的速度完成这一切。

Poppy Crum: Mm-hmm.

Poppy Crum：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Are we talking about like a new brain area, or are we talking about using old brain areas and just trying to find and push the overlap in the Venn diagram?

Andrew Huberman：我们是在谈论新的大脑区域，还是在谈论使用旧的大脑区域，只是试图找到并推动维恩图中的重叠部分？

Because I remember all of this happening very quickly and very seamlessly.

因为我记得所有这一切都发生得非常快而且非常无缝。

I remember texting showed up, and it was all right, well, it's a little slow, a little clunky.

我记得出现了短信，一切都很好，嗯，有点慢，有点笨拙。

Andrew Huberman: Pretty soon, it was autofill.

Andrew Huberman：很快，它就变成了自动填充。

Pretty soon, it was learning us.

很快，它就开始学习我们了。

Now, we can do voice recognition, and people pick this up very fast.

现在，我们可以进行语音识别，人们很快就能掌握这一点。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: So, the question is, are we taking old brain areas and combining them in new ways?

安德鲁·胡伯曼：所以，问题是，我们是否正在利用旧的大脑区域并以新的方式将它们组合起来？

Or is it possible that we're actually changing the way that our brain works fundamentally in order to be able to carry out something as, what seems to be nowadays trivial, but as basic to everyday life as texting?

或者，我们是否有可能实际上正在从根本上改变大脑的工作方式，以便能够执行一些现在看来微不足道，但像发短信一样对日常生活至关重要的事情？

Poppy Crum: Mm-hmm.

Poppy Crum：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: What's going on in our brain?

安德鲁·休伯曼：我们的大脑在发生什么？

Poppy Crum: We aren't developing new resources.

Poppy Crum：我们没有开发新资源。

We've got the same cells that are...

我们有相同的细胞...

Or, I mean, there's neurogenesis, of course, but it's how those are getting allocated, and just one quick comment from what we said before when we talk about the homunculus.

或者，我的意思是，当然有神经发生，但这就是神经发生的分配方式，这只是我们之前谈论小人时所说的一个简短评论。

Poppy Crum: The homunculus is an example of a map in the brain, a cortical map, and maps are important in the brain because they allow cells that need to interact to give us specificity, to make us fast, to have tight reaction times, and things, because you got shorter distance, and things that belong together.

Poppy Crum：小矮人是大脑中的地图的一个例子，皮质地图，地图在大脑中很重要，因为它们允许需要相互作用的细胞为我们提供特异性，使我们更快，反应时间更短等等，因为你的距离更短，并且东西属于在一起。

Also, there's a lot of motility in terms of what those cells respond to, potentially dependent on our input.

此外，这些细胞的反应也有很大的变化，可能取决于我们的输入。

So, the homunculus might be one map, but there are maps all over our brain, and those maps still have a lot of cross-input.

所以，小人可能是一张地图，但我们的大脑里到处都有地图，而且这些地图仍然有很多交叉输入。

Poppy Crum: So, what you're talking about is, are you having areas where we didn't use to allocate and differentiate in the specificity of what those cells were doing that are now quite related to the different ways my brain is having to interpret a text message?

Poppy Crum：所以，你说的是，你是否有一些区域，我们没有用来分配和区分这些细胞所做的事情的特异性，而这些区域现在与我的大脑解释短信的不同方式非常相关？

Poppy Crum: And the subtlety and the nuance of that, that actually now I get faster at, I have faster reaction times, I also have faster interpretations, so am I allocating cells that used to do something else to allow me to have that?

Poppy Crum：其中的微妙之处和细微差别，实际上现在我变得更快了，我有更快的反应时间，我也有更快的解释，所以我是否分配了过去用来做其他事情的单元格来让我拥有它？

Probably, but I'm also building where...

可能吧，但我也在建设......

Think about me as a multi-sensory object that I have to integrate information across sight, sound, smell, to form a holistic object experience.

把我想象成一个多感官的物体，我必须整合视觉、声音、气味等信息，形成一个整体的物体体验。

Poppy Crum: That same sort of integration and pattern is happening now when we communicate in ways that it didn't use to.

Poppy Crum：当我们以以前不曾使用过的方式进行交流时，同样的集成和模式正在发生。

So, what does that mean?

那么，这意味着什么呢？

It means there's a lot more repeatability, a lot faster pattern matching, a lot more integration that is allowing us to go faster.

这意味着有更多的可重复性、更快的模式匹配、更多的集成，使我们能够更快地前进。

Andrew Huberman: I completely agree.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我完全同意。

I feel like there's an entire generation of people who grew up with smartphones, for which it's just part of life.

我觉得整整一代人都是伴随着智能手机长大的，智能手机只是生活的一部分。

Poppy Crum: Mm-hmm.

Poppy Crum：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: I think one of the most impactful statements I ever heard in this general domain was, I gave a talk down at Santa Clara University one evening to some students, and I made a comment about putting the phone away and how much easier it is to focus when you put the phone away, and how much better life is when you take space from your smartphone, and all of this kind of thing.

Andrew Huberman：我认为我在这个领域听到过的最有影响力的说法之一是，有一天晚上我在圣克拉拉大学向一些学生发表了演讲，我发表了关于把手机收起来的评论，当你把手机收起来时集中注意力会变得多么容易，当你从智能手机上腾出空间时，生活会变得多么美好，等等。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: And afterwards, this young guy came up to me, he was probably in his early 20s, and he said, "Listen, you don't get it at all." I said, "What do you mean?" He said, "You adopted this technology into your life and after your brain had developed." He said, "When..." He's speaking for himself, he said, "When my phone runs out of charge, I feel the life drain out of my body, and it is unbearable, or nearly unbearable until that phone pops back on, and then I feel life return to my body, and it's because I can communicate with my friends again.

安德鲁·休伯曼：后来，这个年轻人向我走来，他可能只有 20 岁出头，他说，“听着，你根本不明白。”我说：“你什么意思？”他说：“在你的大脑发育之后，你就将这项技术应用到了你的生活中。”他说，“当……”他是在为自己说话，他说，“当我的手机没电时，我感觉生命从我的身体里流失，这是难以忍受的，或者几乎难以忍受，直到手机重新开机，然后我感觉生命又回到了我的身体，因为我可以再次和我的朋友们交流。”

I don't feel alone.

我并不感到孤独。

I don't feel cut off from the rest of the world."

我不觉得与世界其他地方隔绝。”

Andrew Huberman: And I was thinking to myself, "Wow." His statements really stuck with me, because I realized that his brain, as he was pointing out, is indeed fundamentally different than mine in terms of social context, communication, feelings of safety, and on and on.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我心里想，“哇。”他的说法确实让我印象深刻，因为我意识到，正如他指出的那样，他的大脑在社会背景、沟通、安全感等等方面确实与我的大脑有根本的不同。

Poppy Crum: Mm-hmm.

Poppy Crum：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: And I don't think he's alone.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为他并不孤单。

I think for some people, it might not be quite as extreme?

我想对于某些人来说，可能没有那么极端？

Poppy Crum: Mm.

罂粟花粉：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: But for many of us, to see that dot, dot, dot in the midst of a conversation where we really want the answer to something, or it's an emotionally charged conversation, can be a very intense human experience.

安德鲁·休伯曼：但对于我们许多人来说，在我们真正想要得到某件事答案的对话中看到那个点，点，点，或者这是一次充满情感的对话，可能是一种非常强烈的人类体验。

Poppy Crum: That's interesting, yeah.

Poppy Crum：这很有趣，是的。

Andrew Huberman: So, we've sped up the rate that we transfer information between one another, but even about trivial things.

Andrew Huberman：所以，我们加快了彼此之间传输信息的速度，甚至是一些琐碎的事情。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: It doesn't have to be an argument or a stage four cancer, or is it benign, right?

Andrew Huberman：不一定是争论或第四期癌症，或者是良性的，对吧？

Those are extreme conditions, right?

这些都是极端条件，对吗？

Are they alive or are they dead?

他们是活着还是死了？

Did they find him or her, or did they not?

他们找到他或她了吗？

Those are extreme cases, but there's just the everyday life of...

这些都是极端的例子，但这只是日常生活......

And I notice this, if I go up the coast sometimes, or I'll go to Big Sur, and I will intentionally have time away from my phone.

我注意到这一点，如果我有时去海岸，或者去大苏尔，我会故意有时间远离手机。

Andrew Huberman: It takes about an hour or two or maybe even a half day to really drop into the local environment where you're not looking for stimulation coming in through the smartphone, and I don't think I'm unusual in that regard either.

Andrew Huberman：大约需要一两个小时甚至半天的时间才能真正融入当地环境，在那里你不会通过智能手机寻找刺激，我认为我在这方面也并不罕见。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: So, I guess the question is, do you think that the technology is good, bad, neutral, or are you agnostic as to how the technologies are shaping our brain?

Andrew Huberman：所以，我想问题是，你认为这项技术是好的、坏的、中立的，还是你对这些技术如何塑造我们的大脑持不可知论？

Poppy Crum: It goes in lots of different directions.

Poppy Crum：它有很多不同的方向。

Poppy Crum: One thing I did want to say, though, with smartphones specifically and sort of everything, in audio, our ability to carry our lifetime of music and content with us has been because of huge advances in the last 25, 30 years, and maybe even slightly more, around compression algorithms that have enabled us to have really effective what we call perceptual compression, lossy perceptual algorithms, and things like MP3, and my past work with companies like Dolby.

Poppy Crum：不过，我确实想说一件事，特别是智能手机和音频领域的所有东西，我们能够随身携带一生中的音乐和内容，是因为过去 25 年、30 年甚至可能更多的是压缩算法方面的巨大进步，这些进步使我们能够真正有效地进行所谓的感知压缩、有损感知算法和 MP3 等技术，以及我过去与杜比等公司的合作。

But whenever you're talking about what's the goal of content, compression algorithms, it's to translate the entirety of the experience, the entirety of a signal with a lot of the information removed, right?

但每当你谈论内容和压缩算法的目标是什么时，它都是为了翻译整个体验，即删除大量信息的整个信号，对吧？

But in intelligent ways.

但以聪明的方式。

Poppy Crum: When you look at the way someone is communicating with acronyms and the shorthand that the next generations use to communicate, it is such a rich communication, even though they might just say, "LOL." I mean, it's like...

Poppy Crum：当你看到某人使用缩写词和下一代人用来交流的速记方式进行交流时，你会发现这是一种非常丰富的交流，即使他们可能只是说“哈哈”。我的意思是，这就像...

Or they might...

或者他们可能...

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: It's actually a lossy compression that's triggering a huge cognitive experience, right?

Poppy Crum：这实际上是一种有损压缩，会引发巨大的认知体验，对吧？

Andrew Huberman: Can you explain lossy for people who might not be familiar with it?

Andrew Huberman：您能为不熟悉有损的人解释一下有损吗？

Poppy Crum: Lossy means that in your encoding and decoding of that information, there is actually information that's lost when you decode it.

Poppy Crum：有损意味着在对该信息进行编码和解码时，实际上在解码时会丢失一些信息。

But hopefully, that information is not impacting the perceptual experience.

但希望这些信息不会影响感知体验。

Imagine I have a song and I want to represent that song.

想象一下我有一首歌，我想代表这首歌。

To make my file smaller, I could take out every other 500 milliseconds of that, and it would sound really horrible, right?

为了让我的文件更小，我可以每隔 500 毫秒删除一次，这听起来真的很糟糕，对吧？

Poppy Crum: Or, I could be a lot more intelligent, and instead, basically, if you look at early models like MP3, they're kind of like computational models of the brain.

Poppy Crum：或者，我可以更聪明，相反，基本上，如果你看看像 MP3 这样的早期模型，它们有点像大脑的计算模型。

They might stop at the auditory nerve, but they're trying to put a model of how our brain would deal with sound, what we would hear, what we wouldn't.

他们可能会停留在听觉神经上，但他们试图建立一个模型来说明我们的大脑如何处理声音，我们会听到什么，不会听到什么。

If this sound's present, and it's present at the same time as this sound, then this sound wouldn't be heard, but this sound would be, so we don't need to spend any of our bits coding this sound.

如果这个声音存在，并且它与这个声音同时存在，那么这个声音就不会被听到，但是这个声音会被听到，所以我们不需要花费任何比特来编码这个声音。

Instead, we just need to code this one.

相反，我们只需要编写这个代码即可。

Poppy Crum: And so, it becomes an intelligent way for the model and the algorithm of deciding what information needs to be represented, and what doesn't, to create the best perceptual experience, which perceptual meaning what we get to take home.

Poppy Crum：因此，它成为模型和算法决定哪些信息需要表示、哪些不需要表示的智能方式，以创造最佳的感知体验，这种感知意味着我们能带回家什么。

Poppy Crum: I think one of the things that's important then, why I think, whenever I used to have to teach some of what it means to represent a rich experience with minimal data, you think with minimal information, some of the acronyms that exist in mobile texting, they've taken on a very rich life in internal life.

Poppy Crum：我认为重要的一件事是，为什么我认为，每当我过去必须教授一些用最少的数据代表丰富体验的含义时，你会认为用最少的信息，移动短信中存在的一些首字母缩略词，它们在内心生活中呈现出非常丰富的生活。

Andrew Huberman: LOL.

安德鲁·休伯曼：哈哈。

Andrew Huberman: OMG.

安德鲁·休伯曼：天啊。

Poppy Crum: Yeah, well those are simplistic ones.

Poppy Crum：是的，这些都是简单化的。

Andrew Huberman: Right.

安德鲁·休伯曼：对。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

Poppy Crum: But I think people can have communication now that we can't understand entirely.

Poppy Crum：但我认为人们现在可以进行交流，但我们不能完全理解。

Andrew Huberman: Is this because you have a 10-year-old daughter?

Andrew Huberman：这是因为你有一个 10 岁的女儿吗？

Does she have communication by acronym that, to you, is cryptic?

她是否通过缩写词进行交流，这对你来说是神秘的？

Poppy Crum: Yes.

罂粟花粉：是的。

Poppy Crum: Sometimes.

Poppy Crum：有时。

But I have to figure it out then.

但那时我必须弄清楚。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: But, yes.

Poppy Crum：但是，是的。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: But the point is, that is an example of a lossy compression algorithm that actually has a much richer perceptual experience, right?

Poppy Crum：但重点是，这是有损压缩算法的一个例子，实际上具有更丰富的感知体验，对吧？

And it often needs context, but it's still, you're using few bits of information to try to represent a much richer feeling and a much richer state, right?

它通常需要上下文，但仍然是，您使用少量信息来尝试表示更丰富的感觉和更丰富的状态，对吧？

And if you look at different people, they're going to have bigger physiological experience dependent on how they've grown up with that kind of context.

如果你观察不同的人，他们将会有更大的生理经验，这取决于他们是如何在这种背景下长大的。

Andrew Huberman: It sounds to me, I don't want to project here, but it sounds to me like you see the great opportunity of data compression.

Andrew Huberman：在我看来，我不想在这里进行投影，但在我看来，您看到了数据压缩的巨大机会。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Let's just stay with the use of acronyms in texting.

Andrew Huberman：让我们继续讨论短信中缩写词的使用。

Poppy Crum: Mm-hmm.

Poppy Crum：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: That's a vast data compression compared to the kind of speech and direct exchange that people engaged in 30 years ago.

Andrew Huberman：与 30 年前人们进行的语音和直接交流相比，这是一个巨大的数据压缩。

So, there's less data being exchanged, but the experience is just as rich, if not more rich, is what you're saying, which implies to me that you look at it as generally neutral to benevolent.

因此，交换的数据较少，但体验同样丰富，甚至更丰富，就像你所说的那样，这对我来说意味着你认为它通常是中立到仁慈的。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: It's good.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 很好。

Poppy Crum: It's just different.

Poppy Crum：只是不同而已。

Andrew Huberman: I'm coming up on 50 in a couple months, and as opposed to somebody saying, "Well, you know, when I was younger, we'd write our boyfriend or girlfriend a letter."

Andrew Huberman：几个月后我就将年满 50 岁，而不是有人说：“好吧，你知道，当我年轻的时候，我们会给我们的男朋友或女朋友写一封信。”

Poppy Crum: Yes.

罂粟花粉：是的。

Andrew Huberman: "I would actually write out a birthday card.

安德鲁·休伯曼：“我实际上会写一张生日贺卡。

I would go...

我会去...

You'd have a face-to-face conversation," and you've got this younger generation that are saying, "Yeah, whatever," this is what we heard about, "I used to trudge to school in the snow," kind of thing.

你们会进行面对面的交谈，”而年轻一代会说，“是的，无论如何，”这就是我们听到的，“我曾经在雪地里艰难地去学校”之类的事情。

Andrew Huberman: It's like, "Well, we have heated school buses now, and we've got driverless cars."

安德鲁·胡伯曼：就像，“好吧，我们现在有了加热校车，而且我们有了无人驾驶汽车。”

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: So, I think this is important and useful for people of all ages to hear, that the richness of an experience can be maintained even though there are data or some elements of the exchange are being completely removed.

Andrew Huberman：所以，我认为这对于所有年龄段的人来说都是重要且有用的，即使数据或交换的某些元素被完全删除，体验的丰富性仍然可以保持。

Poppy Crum: Absolutely.

罂粟花：当然。

But it's maintained because of the neural connections that are built in those individuals, right?

但它之所以得以维持，是因为这些人体内建立了神经连接，对吗？

And that generation.

还有那一代人。

Andrew Huberman: I always think of, okay, and the nervous system likes to code, along a continuum, but yum, yuck, or meh.

Andrew Huberman：我总是想到，好吧，神经系统喜欢沿着连续体编码，但是嗯，恶心，或者嗯。

Do you think that technology is kind of neutral?

您认为技术是中立的吗？

Yeah, you lose some things, you gain some things.

是的，你失去了一些东西，你也得到了一些东西。

Or, do you think, this is bad?

或者，您认为这很糟糕吗？

These days, we hear a lot of AI fear.

如今，我们听到了很多关于人工智能的恐惧。

We'll talk about that.

我们会讨论这个。

Or you hear also people who are super excited about what AI can do, what smartphones can do.

或者你也会听到人们对人工智能和智能手机的功能感到非常兴奋。

Andrew Huberman: I mean, some people, like my sister and her daughter, love smartphones because they can communicate, it gives a feeling of safety at a distance.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：我的意思是，有些人，比如我的姐姐和她的女儿，喜欢智能手机，因为它们可以沟通，它给人一种远距离的安全感。

Quick communications are easier, it's hard to sit down and write a letter.

快速沟通更容易，坐下来写一封信很难。

She's going off to college soon, so the question is like, "How often will you be in touch?" It raises expectations about frequency of contact, but it reduces expectations of depth.

她很快就要上大学了，所以问题是，“你多久联系一次？”它提高了对接触频率的期望，但降低了对深度的期望。

Poppy Crum: Mm.

罂粟花粉：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Because you can do like a, "Hey, was thinking about you this morning," and that can feel like a lot.

安德鲁·休伯曼：因为你可以这样做，“嘿，今天早上在想你”，这感觉可能很多。

But a letter, if I sent a letter home, during college to my mom, like, "Hey, was thinking about you this morning.

但是一封信，如果我在大学期间给我妈妈寄一封信，比如，“嘿，今天早上在想你。

Love, Andrew." It'd be like, "Okay." I don't know how that would be.

爱你，安德鲁。”就像，“好吧”。我不知道那会怎样。

They'd be, "Well, that didn't take long," right?

他们会说，“好吧，这并没有花很长时间，”对吧？

Andrew Huberman: So, I think that there's a...

安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，我认为有......

It's a see-saw, you know?

这是一个跷跷板，你知道吗？

Poppy Crum: You can get more frequency.

Poppy Crum：你可以获得更多的频率。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: And then it comes with different levels of expectation on those.

Poppy Crum：随之而来的是对这些的不同程度的期望。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: And my daughter's at camp right now, and we are only allowed to write letters for two weeks.

Poppy Crum：我女儿现在在营地，我们只允许在两周内写信。

Andrew Huberman: Handwritten letters?

安德鲁·胡伯曼：手写的信件？

Poppy Crum: Handwritten letters.

Poppy Crum：手写的信件。

Andrew Huberman: How did that get over?

安德鲁·休伯曼：那是怎么过去的？

Poppy Crum: It's happening.

Poppy Crum：它正在发生。

I mean, I'd lost another home in a flood years ago.

我的意思是，几年前我在一场洪水中失去了另一个家。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: And one of the only things I saved out of the flood, which is this...

Poppy Crum：我从洪水中救出的唯一东西之一，就是这个......

And I just brought these back because I got them from my brother, is they're this communication between one of my ancestors during the Civil War, like, they were courting, and that was all saved, these letters back and forth between the woman.

我只是把这些带回来，因为我从我兄弟那里得到了它们，它们是内战期间我的一位祖先之间的通信，就像，他们在求爱，而这一切都被保存了，这些女人之间来回的信件。

Andrew Huberman: Wow.

安德鲁·休伯曼：哇。

Poppy Crum: And it's with these, it's like 1865, and...

Poppy Crum：有了这些，就像 1865 年一样，而且......

Andrew Huberman: You have those letters?

安德鲁·休伯曼：你有那些信吗？

Poppy Crum: I do.

罂粟克拉姆：我愿意。

I do.

我愿意。

Andrew Huberman: Wow.

安德鲁·休伯曼：哇。

Poppy Crum: I had them in my computer bag until I flew up here.

Poppy Crum：在我飞到这里之前，我一直把它们放在我的电脑包里。

Andrew Huberman: Wow.

安德鲁·休伯曼：哇。

Poppy Crum: But they were on parchment, and even though they went through a flood, they didn't run.

Poppy Crum：但是他们在羊皮纸上，即使他们经历了洪水，他们也没有逃跑。

And it's this very different era of communication, and it's wonderful to have that preserved because that doesn't translate, right, through, and without that history.

这是一个非常不同的交流时代，能够保留下来真是太棒了，因为它不会翻译，正确的，穿越的，没有那段历史。

Poppy Crum: In any case, I am a huge advocate for the integration of technology, but for me, the world is data.

Poppy Crum：无论如何，我是技术集成的大力倡导者，但对我来说，世界就是数据。

And I do think that way.

我确实是这么认为的。

And I look at the way my daughter behaves, I'm like, "Okay, well, what data's coming in?" And that's like, you know...

我看着我女儿的行为方式，我想，“好吧，有什么数据进来？”这就像，你知道...

"And why did she respond that way?" And there's an example I can give, but you think...

“那她为什么这样反应呢？”我可以举一个例子，但你认为......

We were talking about neuroplasticity.

我们正在谈论神经可塑性。

It's like we are the creatures of sort of three things.

就好像我们是三种事物的生物。

Poppy Crum: One is our sensory systems, how they've evolved, and be it by the intrinsic noise that is degrading our sensory receptors, or the...

Poppy Crum：一是我们的感觉系统，它们是如何进化的，是通过降低我们的感觉受体的内在噪音，还是......

You know, my brain is going to have access to about the same amount of information as someone with hearing loss if I'm in a very noisy environment.

你知道，如果我处于非常嘈杂的环境中，我的大脑将获得与听力损失者相同数量的信息。

And so, suddenly, you've induced...

所以，突然之间，你诱导了...

You know, you've compromised the data I have access to.

你知道，你已经泄露了我有权访问的数据。

And then, also, our sort of experientially established priors, right?

然后，还有我们那种根据经验建立的先验，对吧？

Poppy Crum: Our priors being, if you think about the brain as sort of a Bayesian model, things aren't always deterministic for us like they are for some creatures.

Poppy Crum：我们的先验是，如果你将大脑视为贝叶斯模型，那么事情对我们来说并不总是像对某些生物那样是确定性的。

Our brain's having to take data and make decisions about it and respond to it.

我们的大脑必须获取数据并做出决策并做出反应。

Andrew Huberman: Which is Bayesian.

Andrew Huberman：这是贝叶斯。

We should just explain it for people.

我们应该向人们解释一下。

Poppy Crum: Yes.

罂粟花粉：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Deterministic would be input A leads to output B.

Andrew Huberman：确定性是输入 A 导致输出 B。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Bayesian is, it depends on the statistics of what's happening externally and internally.

Andrew Huberman：贝叶斯是，它取决于外部和内部发生的统计数据。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: These are probabilistic models.

Andrew Huberman：这些是概率模型。

Poppy Crum: Yes.

罂粟花粉：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Like, there's a likelihood of A becoming B, or there's a likelihood of A driving B, but there's also a probability that A will drive C, D, or F.

Andrew Huberman：比如，A 有可能成为 B，或者 A 有可能驱动 B，但 A 也有可能驱动 C、D 或 F。

Poppy Crum: Absolutely.

罂粟花：当然。

And we should get into, I mean, some of the things that make us the most effective in our environments, and just in interacting in the world is how fast and effective we are with dealing with those probabilistic situations.

我的意思是，我们应该研究一些使我们在我们的环境中最有效的事情，而在与世界的互动中，我们处理这些概率情况的速度和效率如何。

Those things where your brain...

那些你的大脑...

It's like probabilistic inference is a great indicator of success in an environment.

这就像概率推理是环境中成功的一个重要指标。

And be it a work environment, be it just walking down the street.

无论是工作环境，还是走在街上。

Poppy Crum: And that's how we deal with this, like, data that doesn't just tell us we have to go right or left, but there's a lot of different inputs.

Poppy Crum：这就是我们处理这个问题的方式，比如，数据不仅告诉我们必须向右或向左走，而且还有很多不同的输入。

And it's our sort of situational intelligence in the world, and we can break that down into a lot of different ways.

这是我们在世界上的情境情报，我们可以将其分解为很多不同的方式。

Poppy Crum: In any case, we are the products of our sensory systems, our priors, which are the statistics and data we've had up until that moment that our brain is using to weight how it's going to behave and the decisions it makes, but also then our expectations, the context that have shaped where we are.

Poppy Crum：无论如何，我们都是我们的感觉系统、我们的先验的产物，这些统计数据和数据是我们在那一刻之前所拥有的统计数据和数据，我们的大脑用来权衡它将如何行为和做出的决定，但也是我们的期望，塑造我们所处位置的背景。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: And so, there's this funny story.

Poppy Crum：所以，就有了这个有趣的故事。

Like, my daughter, when she was two and a half, we were in the planetarium at the Smithsonian, and we were watching, I think, a typical film you might watch in a planetarium.

就像我女儿两岁半的时候，我们在史密森尼的天文馆里，我想，我们正在看一部你可能在天文馆里看的典型电影。

We started in LA, zoom out on our way to the sun, and we passed that sort of quintessential NASA image of the Earth, and it's totally dark and silent, and my daughter, as loud as she possibly could, yells, "Minions." And I'm like, "What?"

我们从洛杉矶出发，在前往太阳的途中缩小视野，我们经过了那种典型的美国宇航局地球图像，周围一片漆黑，一片寂静，我的女儿尽可能大声地喊道：“小黄人”。我想，“什么？”

Poppy Crum: And I'm like, "Oh, yes, of course." Her experientially established prior of that image is coming from the Universal logo.

Poppy Crum：我想，“哦，是的，当然。”她之前根据经验建立的该图像来自环球标志。

And she never...

而她从来不...

You know, that says Universal.

你知道，那是环球影业说的。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

No, I love it.

不，我喜欢它。

Poppy Crum: It was totally valid, but it was this very honest and true part of what it is to be human.

Poppy Crum：这是完全正确的，但这是人类的诚实和真实的一部分。

Like, each of us is experiencing very different...

就像，我们每个人都在经历着非常不同的……

You know, having very different experiences of the same physical information, and we need to recognize that.

你知道，对相同的物理信息有截然不同的体验，我们需要认识到这一点。

But it is driven by our exposures, and our priors, and our sensory systems, it's sort of that trifecta, and our expectations of the moment.

但它是由我们的暴露、我们的先验和我们的感觉系统驱动的，这有点像三连胜，以及我们对当下的期望。

Poppy Crum: And once you unpack that, you really start to understand and appreciate the influence of technology.

Poppy Crum：一旦你解开它，你就会真正开始理解和欣赏技术的影响。

Now, I am a huge advocate for technology improving us as humans but also improving the data we have to make better decisions and the sort of insights that drive us.

现在，我是技术的大力倡导者，技术不仅可以改善人类的生活，而且还可以改善我们做出更好决策所需的数据以及推动我们前进的洞察力。

Poppy Crum: At the same time, I think sometimes we're penny-wise, pound-foolish with how we use technology, and the quick things that make us faster can also make us dumber and take away our cognitive capabilities.

Poppy Crum：与此同时，我认为有时我们在使用技术方面是小聪明，大笨蛋，而那些让我们更快的快速事物也可能让我们变得更笨，并剥夺我们的认知能力。

Poppy Crum: And where you'll end up with those that are using the technologies might be to write papers all the time, or maybe...

Poppy Crum：最终，那些使用这些技术的人可能会一直写论文，或者也许......

Well, and we can talk about that more, are putting themselves in a place where they are going to be compromised trying to do anything without that technology, and also in terms of their learning of that data, that information.

好吧，我们可以更多地谈论这一点，他们将自己置于一个在没有该技术的情况下尝试做任何事情时都会受到损害的地方，而且在他们对数据、信息的学习方面也是如此。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: And so, you start even ending up with bigger differentiations in cognitive capabilities by how you use a tool, a technology tool, to make you better or faster, or not.

Poppy Crum：因此，通过如何使用工具、技术工具来让你变得更好或更快，你甚至会开始在认知能力上产生更大的差异。

One of my sorts of things I've always done is teach at Stanford.

我一直做的事情之一就是在斯坦福大学教书。

We also have that in common.

我们也有这个共同点。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

I need to sit in on one of your lectures.

我需要旁听您的一场讲座。

Poppy Crum: You know, but my class there is called "Neuroplasticity and Video Gaming." And I'm a neurophysiologist, but I'm really a technologist.

Poppy Crum：你知道，但我的课程叫做“神经可塑性和视频游戏”。我是一名神经生理学家，但我实际上是一名技术专家。

I like building.

我喜欢建筑。

I like innovation across many domains.

我喜欢跨多个领域的创新。

And while that class says video gaming, it's really more a...

虽然这门课说的是视频游戏，但它实际上更多的是......

Well, video games are powerful in the sense that there's this sort of closed-loop environment.

嗯，视频游戏的强大之处在于存在这种闭环环境。

You get feedback, you get data on your performance, but you get to control that and know what you randomize, how you build.

你会得到反馈，你会得到关于你的表现的数据，但你可以控制它并知道你随机化什么，你如何构建。

Poppy Crum: And what our aim is in that class is to build technology and games with an understanding of the neural circuits you're impacting and how you want to...

Poppy Crum：我们在该课程中的目标是构建技术和游戏，了解您正在影响的神经回路以及您想要如何......

What you want to train?

你想训练什么？

I'll have students that are musicians, I'll have students that are computer scientists, I'll have students that are some of Stanford's top athletes.

我将有音乐家的学生，我将有计算机科学家的学生，我将有斯坦福大学顶尖运动员的学生。

I've had a number of their top athletes go through my course.

他们的许多顶尖运动员都参加过我的课程。

Poppy Crum: And it's always focused on, okay, there's some aspect of human performance I want to dissect and I want to really amplify the sensitivity or the access to that type of learning in a closed-loop way.

Poppy Crum：它总是专注于，好吧，我想剖析人类表现的某些方面，我想真正增强敏感性或以闭环方式进行此类学习的机会。

Poppy Crum: Just for anyone that isn't familiar with the role or the history of gaming in the neuroscience space, there's been some great papers in the past.

Poppy Crum：对于那些不熟悉游戏在神经科学领域的作用或历史的人来说，过去有一些很棒的论文。

Take a gamer versus a non-gamer, just to start with, someone self-identified.

以游戏玩家与非游戏玩家为例，首先是一个自我认同的人。

Poppy Crum: A typical gamer actually has what we would call more sensitive...

Poppy Crum：一个典型的游戏玩家实际上有我们所说的更敏感的东西......

And this is your domain, so you can counter me on this anytime, but contrast sensitivity functions.

这是你的领域，所以你可以随时反驳我，但对比敏感度起作用。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: And like, a contrast sensitivity function is the ability to see edges and differentiation in a visual landscape, okay?

Poppy Crum：对比敏感度功能是在视觉景观中看到边缘和差异的能力，好吗？

Poppy Crum: They can see faster, and they're more sensitive to that sort of differentiation than someone who says, "I'm not a video game player," or self-identifies that way.

Poppy Crum：他们看得更快，而且比那些说“我不是电子游戏玩家”或以这种方式自我认同的人对这种差异更敏感。

Andrew Huberman: Because they've trained it.

Andrew Huberman：因为他们已经训练过它。

Poppy Crum: Yeah, they've trained it.

Poppy Crum：是的，他们已经训练过了。

Andrew Huberman: Right?

安德鲁·休伯曼：对吗？

Like, a first-person shooter game, which I've played occasionally, in an arcade or something like that.

就像我偶尔在街机或类似的地方玩过的第一人称射击游戏。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: I didn't play a lot of video games growing up.

Andrew Huberman：我成长过程中并没有玩很多电子游戏。

I don't these days either.

这些天我也没有。

But, yeah, a lot of it is based on contrast sensitivity, knowing if that is a friend or foe.

但是，是的，很多都是基于对比敏感度，知道那是朋友还是敌人。

Poppy Crum: Absolutely.

罂粟花：当然。

Andrew Huberman: Are you supposed to shoot them or not?

安德鲁·胡伯曼：你到底该不该开枪射杀他们？

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: You have to make these decisions very fast.

Andrew Huberman：你必须非常快地做出这些决定。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Like, right on the threshold of what you would call, like, reflexive.

Andrew Huberman：就像，就在你所谓的反射的门槛上。

Poppy Crum: Yes.

罂粟花粉：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Like, no thinking involved.

Andrew Huberman：就像，不涉及任何思考。

But it's just rapid iteration and decision-making.

但这只是快速迭代和决策。

And then the rules will switch.

然后规则就会改变。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Right?

安德鲁·休伯曼：对吗？

Like, suddenly you're supposed to turn other things into targets and other things into friends.

就像，突然间你应该把其他东西变成目标，把其他东西变成朋友。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Poppy Crum: Well, you're spot on, because then you take someone who self-identified as a non-gamer, make them play 40 hours of Call of Duty, and now their contrast sensitivity looks like a video game player's.

Poppy Crum：嗯，你说得对，因为你让一个自认为非游戏玩家的人玩了 40 个小时的《使命召唤》，现在他们的对比敏感度看起来就像视频游戏玩家一样。

And it persists.

而且它持续存在。

You know, go back, measure them a year later.

你知道，一年后回去测量它们。

But 40 hours of playing Call of Duty, and I see the world differently, not just in my video game.

但玩了 40 个小时的《使命召唤》后，我对世界的看法发生了变化，而不仅仅是在我的电子游戏中。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: I actually have foundational shifts in how I experience the world that give me greater sensitivity to my situational awareness, my situational intelligence.

Poppy Crum：实际上，我体验世界的方式发生了根本性的转变，这让我对态势感知、态势智能更加敏感。

Andrew Huberman: In real life.

安德鲁·休伯曼：在现实生活中。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

Poppy Crum: Yeah, because that's a low-level processing capability, and I love intersecting those when you can.

Poppy Crum：是的，因为这是一种低级处理能力，我喜欢在可能的情况下将它们交叉。

But what's even, I think, more interesting is you also...

但我认为更有趣的是你也......

And these were some...

这些是一些...

This was a great study by Alex Paget and Daphne Bavelier, where it's not just the contrast sensitivity.

这是 Alex Paget 和 Daphne Bavelier 的一项伟大研究，其中不仅仅是对比敏感度。

Let's go to that next level where we were talking about Bayesian, like, probabilistic decisions where things aren't deterministic.

让我们进入下一个层次，我们正在讨论贝叶斯，比如事情不是确定性的概率决策。

Poppy Crum: And for a video game player, and I can train this, they're going to make the same decisions as a non-video game player in those probabilistic inferential situations, but they're going to do it a lot faster.

Poppy Crum：对于视频游戏玩家来说，我可以训练这一点，他们将在概率推理情况下做出与非视频游戏玩家相同的决定，但他们会做得更快。

Poppy Crum: And so, that edge, that ability to get access to that information, is phenomenal, I think.

Poppy Crum：所以，我认为这种优势，即获取信息的能力是惊人的。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: And when you can tap into that, that becomes a very powerful thing.

Poppy Crum：当你能够利用它时，它就会变得非常强大。

So, like, probabilistic inference goes up when I've played 40 hours of Call of Duty, but then what I like to do is take it and say, "Okay, here's a training environment."

所以，当我玩了 40 个小时的《使命召唤》时，概率推理就会上升，但我喜欢做的就是接受它并说：“好吧，这是一个训练环境。”

Poppy Crum: You know, I had a couple of Stanford's top soccer players in my course this year, and our focus was, okay, what data do you not have, and how can we build a closed-loop environment and make it something so that you're gaining better neurological access to your performance based on data like my acceleration, my velocity, not at the end of my two-hour practice, but in real time, and getting auditory feedback so that I am actually tapping into more neural training?

Poppy Crum：你知道，今年我的课程中有几位斯坦福大学的顶级足球运动员，我们的重点是，好吧，你没有什么数据，以及我们如何构建一个闭环环境并使其成为某种东西，以便你能够根据我的加速度、速度等数据，而不是在我的两小时练习结束时，而是实时地获得更好的神经学了解你的表现，并获得听觉反馈，以便我实际上正在利用更多的神经训练？

Poppy Crum: So, we had sensors, like, on their calves that were measuring acceleration velocity and able to give us feedback in real time as they were doing a sort of somewhat gamified training.

Poppy Crum：所以，我们在他们的小腿上安装了传感器，可以测量加速度，并能够在他们进行某种游戏化训练时实时向我们提供反馈。

I don't want to use the word gamified.

我不想使用游戏化这个词。

It's so overused, but let's say it felt like a fun environment.

它被过度使用了，但可以说它感觉像是一个有趣的环境。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: But it's also based on computation of that acceleration data and what their targets were.

Poppy Crum：但这也是基于对加速度数据及其目标的计算。

It's feeding them different sonic cues so that they're building that resolution.

它为他们提供不同的声音提示，以便他们建立解决方案。

When I say resolution, what I mean is, especially as a novice, I can't tell the difference between whether I've accelerated successfully or not, but if you give me more gradation in the feedback that I get with that sort of closed-loop behavior, I start to...

当我说分辨率时，我的意思是，尤其是作为一个新手，我无法区分我是否成功加速了，但如果你在我通过这种闭环行为获得的反馈中给我更多的分级，我开始......

My neural representation of that is going to start differentiating more.

我对此的神经表征将开始更加区分。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: So, with that, that's where the auditory feedback.

Poppy Crum：所以，这就是听觉反馈的地方。

So, they're getting that in real time, and you build that kind of closed-loop environment that helps build that, creating greater resolution in the brain and greater sensitivity to differentiation.

因此，他们可以实时获取这些信息，并且您可以构建有助于构建这种信息的闭环环境，从而在大脑中产生更高的分辨率和对分化的更高敏感性。

Andrew Huberman: I'd love for you to share the story about your daughter improving her swimming stroke, right?

安德鲁·休伯曼：我很想让你分享你女儿提高游泳泳姿的故事，对吧？

Because she's not a D1 athlete yet.

因为她还不是D1运动员。

Maybe she will be someday.

也许有一天她会这样。

But she's a swimmer, right?

但她是游泳运动员，对吧？

Poppy Crum: Yes.

罂粟花粉：是的。

Andrew Huberman: And in the past, if you wanted to get better at swimming, you needed a swimming coach.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：过去，如果你想提高游泳水平，你需要一名游泳教练。

And if you wanted to get really good at swimming, you'd have to find a really good swimming coach, and you'd have to work with them repeatedly.

如果你想真正擅长游泳，你就必须找到一个非常好的游泳教练，并且你必须反复与他们合作。

You took a slightly different direction that really points to just how beneficial and inexpensive this technology can potentially be, or relatively inexpensive.

你采取了稍微不同的方向，这确实表明了这项技术可能是多么有益和廉价，或者相对便宜。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Poppy Crum: Well, first I'll say this.

Poppy Crum：嗯，首先我要说的是。

Number one is having good swimming coaches.

第一是拥有优秀的游泳教练。

Andrew Huberman: Okay.

安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。

Sure, I'm not trying to do away with swimming coaches.

当然，我并不是想废除游泳教练。

Poppy Crum: Parents who are data-centric and really like building technologies are sometimes, maybe, can be red herring distractions, but hopefully not.

Poppy Crum：以数据为中心并且真正喜欢构建技术的父母有时可能会分散注意力，但希望不会。

Andrew Huberman: Okay.

安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。

All right.

好的。

Well, yes.

嗯，是的。

Poppy Crum: That's one of them.

Poppy Crum：这就是其中之一。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

Poppy Crum: But, no.

Poppy Crum：但是，不。

Andrew Huberman: Let's keep the swimming coaches happy.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：让我们让游泳教练高兴吧。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

So, for example, like, you go and train with elite athletes, and if you go to a lot of swimming camps where you're, you know...

所以，举例来说，你去和精英运动员一起训练，如果你去你所在的很多游泳营，你知道......

Or training programs, it's always about work with cameras.

或者培训计划，总是与使用相机有关。

And they're recording you, they're assessing your strokes, but the point is...

他们正在记录你，他们正在评估你的击球，但重点是......

I mean, you can use...

我的意思是，你可以使用...

And I did this knowing the things that the coaches...

我做到了这一点，知道教练们的事情......

You know, or frankly, you can go online and learn some of those things that matter to different strokes.

你知道，或者坦率地说，你可以上网学习一些对不同击球方式重要的东西。

You can use Perplexity Labs, use some of these...

你可以使用 Perplexity Labs，使用其中的一些......

Andrew Huberman: These are online resources?

Andrew Huberman：这些是在线资源吗？

Poppy Crum: Yeah, yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的，是的。

And you can build, quickly build, a computer vision app that is giving you data analytics on your strokes and in real time.

您可以构建（快速构建）一个计算机视觉应用程序，为您提供实时击球数据分析。

Andrew Huberman: So, how does that work?

安德鲁·休伯曼：那么，这是如何运作的呢？

You're taking the phone underwater, analyzing the stroke?

你要把手机放在水下分析中风吗？

Poppy Crum: In this case, I'm using a mobile phone, so I'm doing everything above.

Poppy Crum：在这种情况下，我使用的是手机，所以我正在执行上述所有操作。

Andrew Huberman: Okay, so you're filming...

安德鲁·休伯曼：好的，所以你正在拍摄......

If you could walk us through this.

如果你能引导我们完成这个。

So, you film your daughter doing the freestyle stroke for, you know...

所以，你拍摄你女儿做自由泳的动作，你知道……

Poppy Crum: Right, right.

罂粟花：对，对。

Poppy Crum: Or breaststroke or butterfly.

Poppy Crum：或蛙泳或蝶泳。

Andrew Huberman: Sure.

安德鲁·休伯曼：当然。

Poppy Crum: There's a lot of core things that maybe you want to care about in backstroke and freestyle.

Poppy Crum：仰泳和自由泳中有很多核心问题是你想要关心的。

What's their-- You know, and I am not a...

他们是什么——你知道，我不是……

We used to run.

我们曾经跑步。

Like, I know you're a good runner, but I am a runner, I'm a rock climber, less so a swimmer.

就像，我知道你是一个很好的跑步者，但我是一个跑步者，我是一个攀岩者，而不是一个游泳者。

But things like the roll, or how high they're coming above the water.

但像滚动，或者它们离水面有多高之类的东西。

What's your velocity on a...

你的速度是多少...

You know, you can get actually very sophisticated once you have the data, right?

您知道，一旦掌握了数据，您实际上就可以变得非常复杂，对吗？

Poppy Crum: And what's your velocity on entrance?

Poppy Crum：你入口时的速度是多少？

You know, how far in front of your head is your arm coming in?

你知道，你的手臂距离你的头有多远？

You know, what is...

你知道，什么是...

Again, maybe there are things that, you know, are obvious, which is you want to know how consistent your strokes and your cadence are across the pool.

再说一遍，也许有些事情是显而易见的，那就是您想知道您的划水和节奏在泳池中的一致性。

So, you don't just have your speed, you suddenly have access to what I would call, and you'll hear me use this a lot, a better resolution, but also a lot more analytics that can give you insight.

所以，你不仅有你的速度，你突然可以访问我所说的，你会听到我经常使用它，更好的分辨率，而且还有更多的分析可以给你洞察力。

Poppy Crum: Now, the important thing here is my 10-year-old is not going to...

Poppy Crum：现在，重要的是我 10 岁的孩子不会……

I'm not going to go tell my 10-year-old that she needs to change her velocity on this head or stroke.

我不会去告诉我 10 岁的孩子，她需要改变头部或划水的速度。

But it gives me information that I can at least understand and help her know how something is going and how consistent she is on certain things that her coaches have told her to do.

但这给了我一些信息，我至少可以理解并帮助她知道事情进展如何，以及她在教练告诉她做的某些事情上的一致性如何。

Poppy Crum: And what I love about the idea is, look, this isn't just for...

Poppy Crum：我喜欢这个想法的是，看，这不仅仅是为了......

The ease of getting access to the type of data and information that would previously...

轻松访问以前需要的数据和信息类型......

And I mean, I do code in a lot of areas, but you don't have to do that anymore to build these apps.

我的意思是，我在很多领域进行编码，但您不必再这样做来构建这些应用程序。

In fact, you shouldn't.

事实上，你不应该。

You should leverage AI for the development of these types of tools.

您应该利用人工智能来开发这些类型的工具。

Andrew Huberman: You tell AI to write a code so that it would analyze trajectory, jumping into the pool, how that could be improved if the goal is to swim faster.

Andrew Huberman：你告诉人工智能编写一段代码，以便它分析跳入泳池的轨迹，如果目标是游得更快，那么如何改进。

Poppy Crum: You'd use AI to build an app that would allow you to do that so that you would have then access to that, whatever the data is that you want to do.

Poppy Crum：你可以使用人工智能构建一个应用程序，让你能够做到这一点，这样你就可以访问它，无论你想要做什么数据。

Yeah, so in that case, you're trying to do better stroke analytics and understand things as you move forward.

是的，所以在这种情况下，您会尝试进行更好的中风分析并在前进时了解事情。

You could do the same thing for running, for gait.

你可以对跑步、步态做同样的事情。

You know, in a work environment you can understand a lot more about where vulnerabilities are, where weaknesses are.

你知道，在工作环境中你可以更多地了解漏洞在哪里、弱点在哪里。

Poppy Crum: There are sort of two different places where I see this type of AI acceleration and tool building really having a major impact.

Poppy Crum：我在两个不同的地方看到这种类型的人工智能加速和工具构建确实产生了重大影响。

It's on sort of democratizing data analytics and information that would normally be reserved for the elite to everyone that's really engaged.

这是一种民主化的数据分析和信息，通常是为精英人士和所有真正参与其中的人保留的。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: And that has a huge impact on improving performance, because that kind of data is really useful in understanding learning.

Poppy Crum：这对提高性能有着巨大的影响，因为这种数据对于理解学习非常有用。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: It also has applications for when you're in a work environment and you're trying to better understand success in that environment, in some process or skill of what you're doing.

Poppy Crum：当您在工作环境中并且您试图更好地了解该环境中的成功、您正在做的某些流程或技能时，它也有一些应用程序。

You can gain different analytics than you otherwise would in ways that become much more successful but also give you new data to think about with regard to what I would call a digital twin.

您可以获得与其他方式不同的分析，从而变得更加成功，同时也为您提供新的数据来思考我所说的数字孪生。

Poppy Crum: And when I use the word "digital twin," the goal of a digital twin is not to digitize and represent a physical system in its entirety.

Poppy Crum：当我使用“数字孪生”这个词时，数字孪生的目标不是数字化并代表整个物理系统。

It's to use different interoperable, meaning datasets coming from different sources to gain insights into digitized data of a physical system, or a physical environment, or the physical world, be it a hospital, be it airplanes, be it my body, or be it my fish tank, to give me insights that are continuous and in real time that I otherwise wouldn't be able to gain access to.

它是使用不同的可互操作性，即来自不同来源的数据集来深入了解物理系统、物理环境或物理世界的数字化数据，无论是医院、飞机、我的身体还是我的鱼缸，为我提供连续、实时的见解，否则我将无法获得这些见解。

Andrew Huberman: We've known for a long time that there are things that we can do to improve our sleep, and that includes things that we can take, things like magnesium threonate, theanine, chamomile extract, and glycine, along with lesser-known things like saffron and valerian root.

Andrew Huberman：我们很早就知道我们可以采取一些措施来改善睡眠，其中包括我们可以服用的东西，例如苏糖酸镁、茶氨酸、洋甘菊提取物和甘氨酸，以及一些不太为人所知的东西，例如藏红花和缬草根。

These are all clinically supported ingredients that can help you fall asleep, stay asleep, and wake up feeling more refreshed.

这些都是经过临床支持的成分，可以帮助您入睡、保持睡眠状态，并且醒来时感觉更加神清气爽。

I'm excited to share that our longtime sponsor, AG1, just created a new product called AGZ, a nightly drink designed to help you get better sleep and have you wake up feeling super refreshed.

我很高兴与大家分享，我们的长期赞助商 AG1 刚刚创造了一款名为 AGZ 的新产品，这是一种夜间饮料，旨在帮助您获得更好的睡眠，让您醒来时感觉神清气爽。

Andrew Huberman: Over the past few years, I've worked with the team at AG1 to help create this new AGZ formula.

Andrew Huberman：在过去的几年里，我与 AG1 的团队合作，帮助创建了这个新的 AGZ 公式。

It has the best sleep-supporting compounds in exactly the right ratios in one easy-to-drink mix.

它在一种易于饮用的混合物中以完全正确的比例含有最好的睡眠支持化合物。

This removes all the complexity of trying to forage the vast landscape of supplements focused on sleep and figuring out the right dosages and which ones to take for you.

这消除了尝试寻找大量针对睡眠的补充剂以及确定正确剂量和适合您服用的补充剂的所有复杂性。

AGZ is, to my knowledge, the most comprehensive sleep supplement on the market.

据我所知，AGZ 是市场上最全面的睡眠补充剂。

I take it 30 to 60 minutes before sleep.

我在睡前 30 到 60 分钟服用。

It's delicious, by the way.

顺便说一句，它很好吃。

Andrew Huberman: And it dramatically increases both the quality and the depth of my sleep.

Andrew Huberman：它极大地提高了我的睡眠质量和深度。

I know that both from my subjective experience of my sleep and because I track my sleep.

我知道这一点，既来自我对睡眠的主观体验，也因为我跟踪了我的睡眠。

I'm excited for everyone to try this new AGZ formulation and to enjoy the benefits of better sleep.

我很高兴每个人都能尝试这种新的 AGZ 配方并享受更好睡眠的好处。

Andrew Huberman: AGZ is available in chocolate, chocolate mint, and mixed berry flavors.

Andrew Huberman：AGZ 有巧克力、巧克力薄荷和混合浆果口味。

And as I mentioned before, they're all extremely delicious.

正如我之前提到的，它们都非常美味。

My favorite of the three has to be, I think, chocolate mint, but I really like them all.

我认为这三者中我最喜欢的是巧克力薄荷，但我真的很喜欢它们。

Andrew Huberman: If you would like to try AGZ, go to drinkagz.com/huberman to get a special offer.

Andrew Huberman：如果您想尝试 AGZ，请访问 Drinkagz.com/huberman 以获得特别优惠。

Again, that's drinkagz.com/huberman.

再说一遍，这是 Drinkagz.com/huberman。

Andrew Huberman: Today's episode is also brought to us by Rorra.

Andrew Huberman：今天的节目也是由 Rorra 为我们带来的。

Rorra makes what I believe are the best water filters on the market.

我认为 Rorra 制造的是市场上最好的滤水器。

It's an unfortunate reality, but tap water often contains contaminants that negatively impact our health.

这是一个不幸的现实，但自来水通常含有对我们的健康产生负面影响的污染物。

In fact, a 2020 study by the Environmental Working Group estimated that more than 200 million Americans are exposed to PFAS chemicals, also known as forever chemicals, through drinking of tap water.

事实上，环境工作组 2020 年的一项研究估计，超过 2 亿美国人通过饮用自来水接触到 PFAS 化学物质（也称为永久化学物质）。

Andrew Huberman: These forever chemicals are linked to serious health issues, such as hormone disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems.

Andrew Huberman：这些永久性化学物质与严重的健康问题有关，例如激素紊乱、肠道微生物组破坏、生育问题和许多其他健康问题。

The Environmental Working Group has also shown that over 122 million Americans drink tap water with high levels of chemicals known to cause cancer.

环境工作组还表明，超过 1.22 亿美国人饮用的自来水含有大量已知致癌化学物质。

It's for all these reasons that I'm thrilled to have Rorra as a sponsor of this podcast.

出于所有这些原因，我很高兴 Rorra 作为这个播客的赞助商。

Rorra makes what I believe are the best water filters on the market.

我认为 Rorra 制造的是市场上最好的滤水器。

I've been using the Rorra Countertop System for almost a year now.

我使用 Rorra 台面系统已经快一年了。

Andrew Huberman: Rorra's filtration technology removes harmful substances, including endocrine disruptors and disinfection byproducts, while preserving beneficial minerals like magnesium and calcium.

Andrew Huberman：Rorra 的过滤技术可以去除有害物质，包括内分泌干扰物和消毒副产物，同时保留镁和钙等有益矿物质。

It requires no installation or plumbing, it's built from medical-grade stainless steel, and its sleek design fits beautifully on your countertop.

它不需要安装或管道，由医用级不锈钢制成，其时尚的设计非常适合您的台面。

In fact, I consider it a welcome addition to my kitchen.

事实上，我认为它对我的厨房来说是一个受欢迎的补充。

It looks great, and the water is delicious.

看起来很棒，水也很美味。

Andrew Huberman: If you'd like to try Rorra, you can go to rorra.com/huberman and get an exclusive discount.

Andrew Huberman：如果您想尝试 Rorra，您可以访问 rorra.com/huberman 并获得独家折扣。

Again, that's Rorra, R-O-R-R-A dot com slash huberman.

再说一次，那是 Rorra，R-O-R-R-A . com 斜线休伯曼。

Andrew Huberman: We will definitely talk more about digital twins, but what I'm hearing is that it can be very, and this is nerd speak, but domain specific.

Andrew Huberman：我们肯定会更多地谈论数字孪生，但我听到的是，它可能非常，这是书呆子的说法，但特定于领域。

Poppy Crum: Yeah, yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的，是的。

Andrew Huberman: I mean, like, the lowest-level example I can think of, which would actually be very useful to me, would be a digital twin of my refrigerator that would place an order for the things that I need, not for the things I don't need, eliminate the need for a shopping list.

Andrew Huberman：我的意思是，我能想到的最底层的例子实际上对我来说非常有用，它是我的冰箱的数字孪生，它可以订购我需要的东西，而不是我不需要的东西，从而消除了对购物清单的需要。

Andrew Huberman: It would just keep track of, like, "Hey, you usually run out of strawberries on this day and this day." And it would just keep track of it in the background, and then stuff would just arrive, and it would just be there and, like, eliminate what seemed like, "Well, gosh, isn't going to the store nice?" Yeah, this morning I walked to the corner store, bought some produce.

Andrew Huberman：它只会记录，比如，“嘿，你通常在这一天和这一天都没有草莓了。”它只会在后台跟踪它，然后东西就会到达，它就在那里，就像消除那些看起来像“好吧，天哪，去商店不是很好吗？”的东西。是的，今天早上我走到街角的商店，买了一些农产品。

I had the time to do that, the eight minutes to do that.

我有时间这样做，八分钟的时间。

But really, I would like the fridge to be stocked with the things that I like and need.

但实际上，我希望冰箱里装满我喜欢和需要的东西。

And I could hire someone to do that, but that's expensive.

我可以雇人来做这件事，但这很昂贵。

This could be done trivially, and probably will be done trivially soon, and I don't necessarily need to even build an app into my phone.

这可以简单地完成，并且可能很快就会完成，而且我什至不一定需要在我的手机中构建一个应用程序。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: So, I like to think in terms of the kind of lowest-level but highly useful and easily available now type of technologies.

Andrew Huberman：所以，我喜欢考虑最低级别但非常有用且易于使用的技术类型。

Poppy Crum: Mm-hmm.

Poppy Crum：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: There are a couple of areas, like, when it comes to students learning information, we've heard that AI...

Andrew Huberman：有几个领域，例如，当涉及到学生学习信息时，我们听说人工智能......

We've heard of AI generally as this really bad thing.

我们普遍听说人工智能是一件非常糟糕的事情。

Like, "Oh, they're just going to use AI to write essays and things like that." But there's a use of AI for learning.

就像，“哦，他们只是要使用人工智能来写论文之类的东西。”但人工智能可以用于学习。

I know this because I'm still learning.

我知道这一点，因为我还在学习。

I teach and learn all the time for the podcast, which is-- I've been using AI to take large volumes of text from papers.

我一直在为播客教学和学习，也就是说，我一直在使用人工智能从论文中获取大量文本。

So, this isn't AI hallucinating.

所以，这不是人工智能的幻觉。

Just take large volumes of text verbatim from papers.

只需从论文中逐字获取大量文本即可。

Poppy Crum: Yes.

罂粟花粉：是的。

Andrew Huberman: I've read those papers.

Andrew Huberman：我读过那些论文。

Literally printed them out, taken notes, et cetera, and then I've been using AI to design tests for me of what's in those papers, because I learned, you know, about eight months ago when researching a podcast on how to study and learn best, the data all point to the fact that when we self-test, especially when we self-test away from the material, like when we're being...

从字面上把它们打印出来，做笔记等等，然后我一直在使用人工智能为我设计这些论文中的内容的测试，因为我了解到，你知道，大约八个月前，当我研究一个关于如何最好地学习和学习的播客时，数据都表明了这样一个事实：当我们自我测试时，尤其是当我们远离材料进行自我测试时，就像当我们......

When we're thinking, "Oh, yeah, like, what is the cascade of hormones driving the cortisol negative feedback loop?"

当我们思考“哦，是的，就像，驱动皮质醇负反馈循环的激素级联是什么？”

Poppy Crum: Yes.

罂粟花粉：是的。

Andrew Huberman: When I have to think about that on a walk, as opposed to just looking it up, it's the self-testing that is really most impactful for memory, because most of memory is anti-forgetting.

Andrew Huberman：当我必须在散步时思考这个问题时，而不是仅仅查找，自我测试对记忆力影响最大，因为大多数记忆都是反遗忘的。

Poppy Crum: Yes.

罂粟花粉：是的。

Andrew Huberman: This is kind of one way to think about it.

Andrew Huberman：这是一种思考方式。

So, what I've been doing is having AI build tests for me and having it ask me questions, like, you know, "What is the signal between the pituitary and the adrenals that drives the release of cortisol, and what layer of the adrenals does cortisol come from?"

所以，我一直在做的就是让人工智能为我构建测试，并让它问我一些问题，比如，“垂体和肾上腺之间驱动皮质醇释放的信号是什么，皮质醇来自肾上腺的哪一层？”

Poppy Crum: And I love that.

Poppy Crum：我喜欢这个。

Andrew Huberman: You know?

安德鲁·休伯曼：你知道吗？

And so, I'm sure that the information it's drawing from is accurate, at least to the best of science and medicine's knowledge now.

因此，我确信它所获取的信息是准确的，至少就目前科学和医学的知识而言是准确的。

Poppy Crum: Yes.

罂粟花粉：是的。

Andrew Huberman: And it's just testing me, and it's learning...

Andrew Huberman：这只是在测试我，并且在学习......

This is what's so incredible about AI, and I don't consider myself extreme on AI technology at all.

这就是人工智能的不可思议之处，我并不认为自己对人工智能技术持极端态度。

It's learning where I'm weak and where I'm strong at remembering things, because I'm asking it, "Where am I weak, and where am I strong?"

它正在学习我在记忆方面的弱点和强项，因为我在问它：“我在哪里弱，在哪里强？”

Andrew Huberman: And it'll say, "Oh, like, naming and this," and like, "Third-order conceptual links here need a little bit of work."

Andrew Huberman：它会说，“哦，比如，命名和这个”，比如“这里的三阶概念链接需要一些工作。”

Poppy Crum: Mm-hmm.

Poppy Crum：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: And I go, "Test me on it," and it starts testing me on it.

Andrew Huberman：我说，“测试我，”然后它开始测试我。

It's amazing.

太棒了。

Like, I'm blown away that the technology can do this.

就像，我对这项技术可以做到这一点感到震惊。

And I'm not building apps with AI or anything.

我不会用人工智能或其他东西来构建应用程序。

I'm just using it to try and learn better.

我只是用它来尝试更好地学习。

Poppy Crum: Whether you're building apps or you're building a tool, you're using it as a tool that's helping you optimize your cognition and find your weaknesses but also give you feedback on your performance and accelerate your learning in this, right?

Poppy Crum：无论您是在构建应用程序还是在构建工具，您都将其用作帮助您优化认知并发现弱点的工具，同时也为您的表现提供反馈并加速您的学习，对吗？

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: Because it's...

Poppy Crum：因为它是...

Andrew Huberman: Well, that's the goal.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯，这就是目标。

Poppy Crum: But you're still putting in the effort to learn.

Poppy Crum：但你仍在努力学习。

And I think even the ways that I'm using it to...

我认为即使是我使用它的方式......

You know, computer vision with mobile devices, AI is a huge opportunity and tool.

要知道，计算机视觉与移动设备、人工智能是一个巨大的机会和工具。

Like using the cameras and the data that you've collected to have much more sophisticated input is huge.

就像使用相机一样，您收集的数据可以进行更复杂的输入，这是巨大的。

But in both of those cases, you're shaping cognition.

但在这两种情况下，你都在塑造认知。

You're using data to enrich what you can know.

您正在使用数据来丰富您的知识。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: And AI is just incredibly powerful and a great opportunity in those spaces.

Poppy Crum：人工智能非常强大，在这些领域是一个很好的机会。

You know, the place where I think it is...

你知道，我认为那是一个地方...

And I sort of separate it into literally just two categories.

我实际上将其分为两类。

Maybe that's too simplistic.

也许这太简单了。

It's, am I using...

就是，我用的是...

And this is true for any tool, not just AI, but am I using the tool?

这对于任何工具都是如此，不仅仅是人工智能，但我是否在使用该工具？

Am I using the technology in a way to make me smarter about it and let me have more information and make me more effective, but also cognitively more effective, gain different insights?

我使用这项技术的方式是否让我变得更聪明，让我获得更多信息，让我更有效，而且在认知上更有效，获得不同的见解？

Or am I using it to replace a cognitive skill I've done before to be faster?

或者我是否用它来取代我之前做过的认知技能，以提高速度？

And it doesn't mean you don't want to do those things.

这并不意味着您不想做这些事情。

Poppy Crum: I mean, GPS in our car is a perfect example of a place where we're replacing a cognitive tool to make me faster and more effective.

Poppy Crum：我的意思是，我们汽车中的 GPS 就是一个完美的例子，我们正在取代认知工具，让我更快、更高效。

And frankly, you take away your GPS in a city you drive around in, and we're not very good, and...

坦率地说，你在一个你开车去的城市里拿走你的 GPS，我们就不是很好，而且……

Andrew Huberman: I remember paper maps.

Andrew Huberman：我记得纸质地图。

I remember the early studies of the hippocampus were based on London taxi drivers that had mental maps of the city.

我记得早期对海马体的研究是基于伦敦出租车司机的，他们心里有这座城市的地图。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Poppy Crum: Absolutely.

罂粟花：当然。

Andrew Huberman: You know, with all due respect to London taxi drivers, up until GPS, like, those mental maps are not necessary anymore.

Andrew Huberman：恕我直言，伦敦出租车司机在 GPS 出现之前，那些心理地图就不再需要了。

Poppy Crum: No. And I mean, they had more gray matter in their hippocampus, and we know that, and you look at them today and they don't have to have that,  because the people in their back seats have more data, have more information, have eyes from the sky.

Poppy Crum：不。我的意思是，他们的海马体中有更多的灰质，我们知道这一点，但你今天看看他们，他们不一定有这样的灰质，因为坐在后座的人有更多的数据，有更多的信息，有来自天空的眼睛。

I mean, satellite data is so huge in our success in the future, and it can anticipate the things that locally you can't.

我的意思是，卫星数据对我们未来的成功至关重要，它可以预测本地无法预测的事情。

And so, it's been replaced.

所以，它被替换了。

But it still means when you lose that data, you don't expect yourself to have the same spatial navigation of that environment without it, right?

但这仍然意味着当您丢失这些数据时，您不会期望自己在没有它的情况下拥有相同的空间导航，对吧？

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: I love your two batches, right?

安德鲁·休伯曼：我喜欢你的两批，对吧？

You're either using it to make you cognitively better, or you're using it to speed you up, but you have to be...

你要么用它来提高你的认知能力，要么用它来加速你的速度，但你必须……

Here's where I think people...

这就是我认为人们...

Poppy Crum: Cognitively or physically.

Poppy Crum：认知上或身体上。

Andrew Huberman: Cognitively or physically.

Andrew Huberman：认知上或身体上。

Poppy Crum: But you're still trying to gain insight and data and information that's making me a more effective human.

Poppy Crum：但是你仍然在努力获得洞察力、数据和信息，这使我成为一个更高效的人。

Andrew Huberman: Right.

安德鲁·休伯曼：对。

Andrew Huberman: Right.

安德鲁·休伯曼：对。

And I think that the place where people are concerned, including myself, is when we use these technologies that eliminate steps, make things faster, but we fill in the additional time or mental space with things that are neutral to detrimental.

我认为，包括我自己在内的人们所关心的地方是，当我们使用这些技术来消除步骤、使事情变得更快时，我们却用中性甚至有害的东西来填充额外的时间或心理空间。

Poppy Crum: Yes.

罂粟花粉：是的。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: It's sort of like saying, "Okay, I can get all the nutrients I need from a drink that's eight ounces." This is not true, but then the question is, like, how do I make up the rest of my calories, right?

Andrew Huberman：这有点像在说：“好吧，我可以从八盎司的饮料中获取所需的所有营养。”这不是真的，但问题是，我该如何补充剩余的卡路里，对吗？

Am I making it up with also nutritious food?

我是否也用营养食品来弥补？

Right?

正确的？

Let's just say that it keeps me at a neutral health status.

这么说吧，它让我保持中立的健康状态。

Andrew Huberman: Or am I eating stuff that, because I need calories, that I'm not necessarily gaining weight, but I'm bringing in a bunch of bad stuff with those calories?

安德鲁·休伯曼：或者我吃的东西是因为我需要卡路里，所以我不一定会增加体重，但我会用这些卡路里带来一堆不好的东西？

And so, in the mental version of this, things are sped up, but people are filling the space with things that are making them dumber, in some cases.

因此，在心理版本中，事情的速度加快了，但在某些情况下，人们用一些让他们变得更愚蠢的东西来填充这个空间。

Poppy Crum: There was a recent paper from MIT that I actually...

Poppy Crum：麻省理工学院最近发表了一篇论文，我实际上......

It was very much what I spend a lot of my time talking about and thinking about, but...

这是我花了很多时间谈论和思考的问题，但是......

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, could you describe that study?

Andrew Huberman：是的，你能描述一下这项研究吗？

Poppy Crum: The upshot of the paper, first, was that people...

Poppy Crum：这篇论文的结果首先是人们......

There's a lot less mental process or cognitive process that goes on for people when they use LLMs to write papers, and they don't have the same transfer, and they don't really learn the information.

当人们使用法学硕士撰写论文时，他们所进行的心理过程或认知过程要少得多，而且他们没有相同的转移，并且他们没有真正学习信息。

Surprise, surprise.

惊喜，惊喜。

Andrew Huberman: So, just to briefly describe the study, even though it got a lot of popular press, it's, you know, MIT students writing papers using AI, versus writing papers the old-fashioned way, where you think and write.

Andrew Huberman：所以，简单地描述一下这项研究，尽管它得到了很多大众媒体的关注，但你知道，麻省理工学院的学生使用人工智能来写论文，而不是用传统的方式写论文，即你思考和写作。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Poppy Crum: So, there were three different categories.

Poppy Crum：所以，分为三个不同的类别。

People who had to write the papers just using their brain only.

那些只能用脑子写论文的人。

And that would be case one.

这就是第一种情况。

Case two would be I get to use search engines, which would be sort of a middle ground.

第二种情况是我使用搜索引擎，这将是一种中间立场。

Again, these are rough categories.

同样，这些都是粗略的类别。

And then a third would be I use LLMs to write my paper.

第三个是我使用法学硕士来写我的论文。

And they're looking at sort of what kind of transfer happened, what kind of...

他们正在研究发生了什么样的转移，什么样的......

Poppy Crum: They were measuring neural response, so they were using EEG to look at neural patterns across the brain to understand how much neural engagement happened during the writing of the papers and during the whole process, and then what they could do with that and what they knew about that information down the road.

Poppy Crum：他们正在测量神经反应，因此他们使用脑电图来观察整个大脑的神经模式，以了解在论文写作期间和整个过程中发生了多少神经参与，然后他们可以利用这些信息做什么以及他们对这些信息的了解。

It's a really nice paper so I don't want to diminish it in any way by summarizing it.

这是一篇非常好的论文，所以我不想通过总结来以任何方式削弱它。

Poppy Crum: But what I think is a really important upshot of that paper, and also just how we talk about it, that I liked was they...

Poppy Crum：但我认为那篇论文的一个非常重要的结果，以及我们谈论它的方式，我喜欢的是他们......

I talk a lot about cognitive load always, and you can measure cognitive load in the diameter of your pupil, and body posture, and how people are thinking.

我总是谈论很多关于认知负荷的问题，你可以通过瞳孔直径、身体姿势以及人们的思维方式来衡量认知负荷。

It's really, how hard is my brain working right now to solve a problem or just in my context?

事实上，我的大脑现在为解决问题或仅在我的环境中工作有多努力？

And there are a lot of different cues we give off as humans that tell us when we're under states of different load, cognitively, and whether we are aware of it or not.

作为人类，我们会发出很多不同的线索，告诉我们何时处于不同的认知负荷状态，以及我们是否意识到这一点。

Poppy Crum: And there's something called cognitive load theory that breaks down sort of what happens when our brains are under states of load.

Poppy Crum：有一种叫做认知负荷理论的东西可以解释当我们的大脑处于负荷状态时会发生什么。

And that load can come from sort of three different places.

该负载可能来自三个不同的地方。

It might be coming from what you would call intrinsic information, which is what...

它可能来自你所谓的内在信息，这就是......

And this is all during learning.

而这一切都是在学习过程中发生的。

Poppy Crum: The intrinsic load, or cognitive load, would be from the difficulty of the material I'm trying to understand.

Poppy Crum：内在负荷或认知负荷将来自我试图理解的材料的难度。

You know, really some things are easy to learn, some things are a lot harder, and that's intrinsic load.

你知道，确实有些东西很容易学，有些东西则要困难得多，这就是内在的负担。

Extraneous load would be the load that comes from how the information's presented.

无关负载是来自信息呈现方式的负载。

Is it poorly taught?

是不是教得不好？

Is it poorly organized?

是不是组织得不好？

Or also even the environment.

或者甚至是环境。

If I'm trying to learn something auditorily and it's noisy, that's introducing extraneous cognitive load, right?

如果我试图通过听觉来学习一些东西，但它很吵，那就会引入额外的认知负荷，对吧？

It's not the information itself, but it's because of everything else happening with that data.

这不是信息本身，而是因为该数据发生的其他一切。

Poppy Crum: And then the third is germane cognitive load, and that's the load that is used in my brain to build mental schemas, to organize that information, to really develop a representation of what that information is that I'm taking in.

Poppy Crum：第三个是密切相关的认知负荷，这是我大脑中用来构建心理模式、组织信息、真正形成我正在接受的信息的表示的负荷。

And that germane cognitive load, that's the work, right?

密切相关的认知负荷，这就是工作，对吧？

And if you don't have germane cognitive load, you don't have learning, really.

如果你没有相关的认知负荷，你就没有学习的机会，真的。

Poppy Crum: And what they found is basically the germane cognitive load is what gets impacted most by using LLMs, which is, I mean, it's a very obvious thing.

Poppy Crum：他们发现，使用法学硕士对相关认知负荷的影响最大，我的意思是，这是一件非常明显的事情。

Like, that's...

就像，那是...

Andrew Huberman: Meaning you don't engage quite as high levels of germane cognitive load.

Andrew Huberman：这意味着你没有承担那么高水平的相关认知负荷。

Poppy Crum: Using LLMs, you're not engaging the mental effort to build cognitive schema, to build neural schemas and sort of the mental representation of the information so that you can interact with it later, and you have access to it later.

Poppy Crum：使用法学硕士，你不需要花精力去构建认知模式、神经模式和对信息的心理表征进行排序，以便你以后可以与它交互，并且以后你可以访问它。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: And this is really important, because without that, you won't be as intelligent on that topic down the road, that's for sure.

Poppy Crum：这非常重要，因为如果没有这一点，你以后在这个话题上就不会那么聪明，这是肯定的。

Let me give two examples.

让我举两个例子。

I have a doctor, I have a lawyer, and both of them use LLMs extensively for searches, say, or for building information.

我有一位医生，我有一位律师，他们都广泛使用法学硕士来进行搜索或构建信息。

Poppy Crum: In one case it's for aggregation of patient data.

Poppy Crum：在一种情况下，它用于聚合患者数据。

In another case it's for the history of case files, and that is the GPS that's happening in those spaces, because those are the tools that are quickly adopted.

在另一种情况下，它用于案件档案的历史记录，即在这些空间中发生的 GPS，因为这些是很快被采用的工具。

Where you have someone that maybe came from a different world, has learned that information, has gone and worked with data in a different way, their representation of that information is going to be better at extrapolation, it's going to be better at generalization, it's going to be better at seeing patterns that would exist.

如果有人可能来自不同的世界，已经了解了信息，并以不同的方式处理了数据，他们对信息的表示将更好地进行推断，将更好地概括，将更好地看到可能存在的模式。

Poppy Crum: The brain that has done everything through LLMs is going to be in a place where they will get the answer for that relevant task or using the tools they have, but you're not at the same level of richness and depth of information, or generalization, or extrapolation for those topics as someone that has learned in a different way.

Poppy Crum：通过法学硕士完成所有工作的大脑将在一个地方，他们将获得相关任务的答案或使用他们拥有的工具，但你在信息的丰富性和深度上，或者对这些主题的概括或推断方面，与以不同方式学习的人不同。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: There's a generational difference in understanding, not because they don't have the same information, but there is an acknowledgement that there's a gap, even though we're getting to the same place as fast.

Poppy Crum：理解上存在代际差异，不是因为他们没有相同的信息，而是因为我们承认存在差距，即使我们以同样快的速度达到相同的目标。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: And that's because of the learning that's happened.

Poppy Crum：这是因为所发生的学习。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

The germane cognitive load.

密切相关的认知负荷。

Poppy Crum: Absolutely.

罂粟花：当然。

The cognitive load.

认知负荷。

Like, you've got to do the work.

就像，你必须完成这项工作。

Your brain has to...

你的大脑必须...

And what was beautiful about your descriptions, Andy, is when you were talking about how you were using it, which I love to test yourself and find your vulnerabilities is...

安迪，你的描述的美妙之处在于当你谈论你如何使用它时，我喜欢测试自己并发现你的漏洞是......

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: You know, and actually in the paper at MIT, which I think, again, these are things that are somewhat obvious, but we just have to...

Poppy Crum：你知道，实际上在麻省理工学院的论文中，我再次认为这些都是显而易见的事情，但我们必须......

I think we have to talk about them more, as people with higher competency on the topic use the tools in ways that still engage more germane cognitive load but help to accelerate their learning.

我认为我们必须更多地讨论它们，因为在该主题上具有较高能力的人使用这些工具的方式仍然会产生更多相关的认知负荷，但有助于加速他们的学习。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: You know, where is the biggest vulnerability and gap?

Poppy Crum：你知道最大的漏洞和差距在哪里吗？

It's when it's especially in areas and topics where you're trying to learn a new domain fast, or you're under pressure and you're not putting in the germane effort, or you're not using the tools that you have access to that AI can enable.

尤其是当你试图快速学习新领域的领域和主题，或者你面临压力并且你没有投入相关的努力，或者你没有使用你有权访问人工智能可以启用的工具时。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: You're not using them to amplify your cognitive gain but instead to deliver something faster, more rapid and then walking away from it.

Poppy Crum：你不是用它们来增强你的认知增益，而是为了更快、更迅速地提供一些东西，然后离开它。

Andrew Huberman: I'm going to try and present two parallel scenarios in order to go further into this question of how to use AI to our best advantage, to enrich our brains as opposed to diminish our brains.

Andrew Huberman：我将尝试呈现两个平行的场景，以便进一步探讨如何利用人工智能来发挥我们的最大优势，丰富我们的大脑，而不是削弱我们的大脑。

Poppy Crum: Mm-hmm.

Poppy Crum：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: Mm-hmm.

Poppy Crum：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: So, I could imagine a world, because we already live in it, where there's this notion of slow food.

安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，我可以想象一个世界，因为我们已经生活在其中，那里有慢食的概念。

Like, you cook your food, you get great ingredients from the farmer's market, like a peach that, quote unquote, "really tastes like a peach," this kind of thing.

就像，你做饭，你从农贸市场得到很好的原料，比如桃子，引用不加引用的话，“真的尝起来像桃子”之类的东西。

You make your own food, you cook it, and you taste it, and it's just delicious.

你自己做食物，你煮它，你尝尝它，它真的很美味。

And I can also imagine a world where you order a peach pie online, and it shows up, and you take a slice, and you eat it.

我还可以想象一个世界，你在网上订购了一个桃子派，它出现了，你拿了一片，然后吃了它。

Andrew Huberman: And you could take two different generations of people, maybe people that are currently now 50 or older, and people that are 15 or younger, and the older generation would say, "Oh, isn't the peach pie that you made so much better?

Andrew Huberman：你可以拿两代不同的人来说，也许现在 50 岁或以上的人，以及 15 岁或以下的人，老一代人会说，“哦，你做的桃子派不是更好吗？

Like, these peaches are amazing." And I could imagine a real scenario where the younger person, 15 to 30 let's say, would say, like, "I don't know, I actually really like the other pie.

就像，这些桃子太棒了。”我可以想象一个真实的场景，年轻人，比如说 15 到 30 岁，会说，“我不知道，我实际上真的很喜欢另一个馅饼。

I like it just as well."

我也喜欢它。”

Andrew Huberman: And the older generation is like, "What are you talking about?" Like, "This is how it's done." What's different?

安德鲁·休伯曼：老一代人会问，“你在说什么？”就像，“事情就是这样完成的。”有什么不同？

Well, sure, experience is different, et cetera, but from a neural standpoint, from a neuroscience standpoint, it very well could be that it tastes equally good to the two of them, just differs based on their experience.

嗯，当然，经验是不同的，等等，但从神经的角度来看，从神经科学的角度来看，很可能它的味道对他们两个来说同样好，只是根据他们的经验而有所不同。

Meaning that the person isn't lying.

意思是这个人没有说谎。

It's not like this kid, you know, isn't as fine-tuned to taste, it's that their neurons acclimated to, like, what sweetness is and what contrast between sweet and saltiness is, and what a peach should taste like.

你知道，这并不是说这个孩子对味道的适应能力不强，而是他们的神经元已经适应了甜味是什么、甜味和咸味之间的对比是什么，以及桃子应该是什么味道。

Because damn it, they had peach gummies and that tastes like a peach, you know?

因为该死的，他们有桃子软糖，尝起来像桃子，你知道吗？

And so we can be disparaging of the kind of what we would call the lower level or diminished sensory input, but it depends a lot on what those neural circuits were weaned on.

因此，我们可以贬低所谓的较低水平或减少的感觉输入，但这在很大程度上取决于这些神经回路的基础。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Poppy Crum: Couple of comments.

Poppy Crum：一些评论。

I love the peach pie example.

我喜欢桃子派的例子。

Making bread is another example of that, and in the '90s, everyone I knew when they graduated from high school got a bread maker that was shaped like a box and, you know, created this, like, loaf of bread with a giant, you know, rod through it, and it was just the graduation gift for many years.

制作面包是另一个例子，在 90 年代，我认识的每个人在高中毕业时都得到了一个形状像盒子的面包机，你知道，用一个巨大的杆穿过它，制作出这样的面包，你知道，它只是多年来的毕业礼物。

Andrew Huberman: I remember this.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我记得这一点。

Yep.

是的。

Poppy Crum: And, you know, you don't see those anymore.

Poppy Crum：而且，你知道，你再也看不到那些了。

And, yeah, if you even look at what happened with, like, the millennial generation in the last five years, especially during the pandemic, suddenly bread-making and sourdough, that became a thing.

是的，如果你看看过去五年里千禧一代发生的事情，特别是在大流行期间，突然制作面包和酵母，这就成了一件事。

What's the difference, you know?

有什么区别，你知道吗？

Poppy Crum: You've got bread, it's warm, you know, with the bread maker.

Poppy Crum：你已经有了面包，用面包机做的，面包是热的。

It's fresh, and it is not at all desired relative to bread that takes a long period of time and is tactile in the process and the making of it, and, you know, is clearly much more onerous than the other in its process of development.

它是新鲜的，相对于面包来说，它根本不受欢迎，因为面包需要很长的时间，而且在制作过程和制作过程中是有触觉的，而且，你知道，在它的开发过程中显然比其他面包繁重得多。

Poppy Crum: I think the key part is, in the appreciation of the bread, the process is part of it, and that process is development of sort of the germane knowledge and the commitment and connection to that humanness of development, but also the tactile commitment.

Poppy Crum：我认为关键部分是，在欣赏面包时，过程是其中的一部分，这个过程是相关知识的发展以及对发展的人性的承诺和联系，也是触觉的承诺。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: The work that went into it is really appreciated in the same way that that peach pie, for one, comes with that whole time series of data that wasn't just about my taste, but was also smell, also physical, also visual, and saw the process evolve and build a different prior going into that experience.

Poppy Crum：我们非常欣赏其中的工作，就像桃子派带来的整个时间序列的数据不仅与我的口味有关，而且还与气味、物理、视觉有关，并且看到了过程的演变并建立了不同的先验体验。

And that is, I think, part of richness of human experience.

我认为，这就是人类丰富经验的一部分。

Poppy Crum: Will it be part of the richness of how humans interact with AI?

Poppy Crum：它会成为人类与人工智能互动的丰富方式的一部分吗？

Absolutely.

绝对地。

Or interact with robots?

或者与机器人互动？

Absolutely.

绝对地。

So it's what are the relationships we're building, and how integrated are these tools, these, you know, companions, whatever they may be, in our existence will shape us in different ways.

所以，这就是我们正在建立的关系是什么，以及这些工具、这些伙伴的整合程度如何，无论它们是什么，在我们的存在中都会以不同的方式塑造我们。

Poppy Crum: What I am particularly, I guess, bullish on and excited for is the robot that optimizes my health, my comfort, my intent in my environment, you know, be it in the cabin of a car, be it in my rooms, my spaces.

Poppy Crum：我想，我特别看好和兴奋的是机器人，它可以优化我的健康、我的舒适度、我对环境的意图，你知道，无论是在车舱里，还是在我的房间、我的空间里。

Andrew Huberman: So what would that look like?

安德鲁·休伯曼：那会是什么样子呢？

Could you give me the lowest level example?

你能给我一个最低级别的例子吗？

Like, would it be an assistant that helps you travel today when you head back to the Bay Area?

比如，当您今天返回湾区时，它会是一个帮助您旅行的助手吗？

What is this nonphysical robot?

这个非实体机器人是什么？

Poppy Crum: And I think we already have some of these.

Poppy Crum：我认为我们已经有了其中一些。

Like, it's the point where HVAC systems actually get sexy, right?

就像，这就是暖通空调系统真正变得性感的地方，对吧？

Not sexy in that sense, but they're actually really interesting because they are the heart of, you know-

从这个意义上来说并不性感，但它们实际上非常有趣，因为它们是，你知道的核心——

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: HVAC systems?

Andrew Huberman：暖通空调系统？

Poppy Crum: Heating, ventilation, you know, AC.

Poppy Crum：供暖、通风，你知道，空调。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

Poppy Crum: But you think about a thermostat, you know, a thermostat right now is optimizing for, you know, an AI thermostat, optimizing for my behavior, but it's trying to save me resources, trying to save me money, but doesn't know if I'm hot or cold.

Poppy Crum：但是你想想恒温器，你知道，现在的恒温器正在针对人工智能恒温器进行优化，优化我的行为，但它试图节省我的资源，试图节省我的钱，但不知道我是热还是冷。

It doesn't know, to your point, my intent, what I'm trying to do at that moment, and this, you know, speaks more to a lot of the things you've studied in the past.

就你而言，它不知道我的意图，我当时想做什么，而这，你知道，更多地说明了你过去研究过的很多事情。

You know, it doesn't know what my optimal state is for my goal in that moment in time.

你知道，它不知道我在那一刻实现目标的最佳状态是什么。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: But it can very easily, frankly, you know, it can talk to me, but it can also know my state of my body right now and what is going...

Poppy Crum：但它可以很容易地，坦率地说，你知道，它可以和我说话，但它也可以知道我现在的身体状态以及正在发生的事情......

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: You know, if it's 1:00 AM and I really need to work on a paper, you know, my house should not get cold, but it also should be very...

Poppy Crum：你知道，如果现在是凌晨 1:00，我真的需要写论文，你知道，我的房子不应该变冷，但也应该非常......

For me, it shouldn't, I know.

对我来说，不应该，我知道。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: For some people it should.

Poppy Crum：对于某些人来说应该如此。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, my Eight Sleep mattress, which I love, love, love, love, and yes, they're a podcast sponsor, but I would use one anyway, it knows what temperature adjustments need to be made across the course of the night.

Andrew Huberman：是的，我的八睡眠床垫，我爱，爱，爱，爱，是的，他们是播客赞助商，但无论如何我都会使用一个，它知道整个晚上需要进行哪些温度调整。

Poppy Crum: Mm-hmm.

Poppy Crum：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: Right.

罂粟花粉：对。

Andrew Huberman: I put in what I think is best, but it's updating all the time now because it has updating sensors, like dynamically updating sensors.

Andrew Huberman：我输入了我认为最好的内容，但它现在一直在更新，因为它有更新的传感器，比如动态更新传感器。

I'm getting close to two hours of REM sleep a night, which is outrageously good for me.

我每晚的快速眼动睡眠时间接近两个小时，这对我来说非常好。

Poppy Crum: Mm-hmm.

Poppy Crum：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Much more deep sleep.

Andrew Huberman：更多的深度睡眠。

And that's a little micro environment.

这就是一个小微观环境。

You're talking about integrating that into an entire home environment.

您正在谈论将其集成到整个家庭环境中。

Poppy Crum: Home, vehicle, yes, because it needs to treat me as a dynamic time series, it needs to understand the context of everything that's driving my state internally, there's everything that's driving my state in my local environment, meaning my home or my car, and then there's what's driving my state externally, from, you know, my external environment.

Poppy Crum：家，车辆，是的，因为它需要将我视为一个动态时间序列，它需要了解在内部驱动我的状态的所有内容的背景，在我的本地环境中驱动我的状态的所有内容，意味着我的家或我的汽车，然后还有在外部驱动我的状态的内容，来自我的外部环境。

And we're in a place where those things are rarely treated, you know, interacting together for the optimization and the dynamic interactions that happen.

我们处于一个很少处理这些事情的地方，你知道，为了优化和发生的动态交互而相互作用。

But we can know these things.

但我们可以知道这些事情。

We can know so much about the human state from non-contact sensors.

我们可以通过非接触式传感器了解很多关于人类状态的信息。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, and we're right at the point where the sensors can start to feed information to AI to be able to deliver what effectively...

Andrew Huberman：是的，我们正处于传感器可以开始向人工智能提供信息的阶段，以便能够有效地提供信息......

Again, a lower level example would be, like, the dynamically cooling mattress, or dynamically heating mattress.

同样，较低级别的示例是动态冷却床垫或动态加热床垫。

Like, I discovered through the AI that my mattress was applying, and I was told, that heating your sleep environment toward the end of the night increases your REM sleep dramatically, whereas cooling at the beginning of the night increases your deep sleep.

比如，我通过人工智能发现我的床垫正在使用，并且我被告知，在晚上结束时加热你的睡眠环境会显着增加你的快速眼动睡眠，而在晚上开始时冷却会增加你的深度睡眠。

Poppy Crum: Yes.

罂粟花粉：是的。

Poppy Crum: Yes.

罂粟花粉：是的。

Andrew Huberman: It has been immensely beneficial for me to be able to shorten my total sleep need, which is something that for me is, like, awesome.

Andrew Huberman：能够缩短我的总睡眠需求对我来说非常有益，这对我来说是非常棒的。

Because I like sleep a lot, but I don't want to need to sleep so much in order to feel great.

因为我很喜欢睡觉，但我不想需要睡太多才能感觉良好。

Poppy Crum: Mm-hmm.

Poppy Crum：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: Well, you want to have your own choice about how you sleep, given that it's helping you have that.

Poppy Crum：嗯，你想要自己选择自己的睡眠方式，因为它可以帮助你做到这一点。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Right.

安德鲁·休伯曼：对。

Andrew Huberman: Sometimes I have six hours, sometimes I have eight hours, this kind of thing.

Andrew Huberman：有时我有六个小时，有时我有八个小时，诸如此类。

Here's where I get stuck, and I've been wanting to have a conversation about this with someone, ideally a neuroscientist who's interested in building technologies, for a very long time.

这就是我陷入困境的地方，很长一段时间以来我一直想与某人讨论这个问题，最好是对构建技术感兴趣的神经科学家。

So I feel like this moment is a moment I've been waiting for for a very long time, which is the following.

所以我觉得这一刻是我等待了很长时间的时刻，如下。

I'm hoping you can solve this for all of us, Poppy.

我希望你能为我们所有人解决这个问题，Poppy。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: We're talking about sleep, and we know a lot about sleep.

Andrew Huberman：我们谈论的是睡眠，我们对睡眠了解很多。

You've got slow wave sleep, deep sleep, growth hormone release at the beginning of the night, you have less metabolic need then, then you have rapid eye movement sleep, which consolidates learning from the previous day, it removes the emotional load of previous day experiences, we can make temperature adjustments, we do all these things, avoid caffeine too late in the day.

你有慢波睡眠，深度睡眠，生长激素在夜晚开始释放，那时你的新陈代谢需求较少，然后你有快速眼动睡眠，这巩固了前一天的学习，它消除了前一天经历的情绪负担，我们可以调整温度，我们做所有这些事情，避免在一天中太晚喝咖啡。

Lots of things to optimize these known states that occupy this thing that we call sleep.

有很多东西可以优化这些已知的状态，这些状态占据了我们称之为睡眠的东西。

Andrew Huberman: And AI and technology, I would say, is doing a really great job, as is pharmacology, to try and enhance sleep.

Andrew Huberman：我想说，人工智能和技术在改善睡眠方面做得非常出色，药理学也是如此。

Sleep's getting better.

睡眠越来越好了

We're getting better at sleeping, despite more forces potentially disrupting our sleep, like smartphones and noise and city noise, et cetera.

尽管有更多的力量可能扰乱我们的睡眠，例如智能手机、噪音和城市噪音等，但我们的睡眠质量正在变得更好。

Poppy Crum: Mm-hmm.

Poppy Crum：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Okay.

安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。

Here's the big problem in my mind, is that we have very little understanding or even names for different awake states.

我认为最大的问题是，我们对不同的清醒状态知之甚少，甚至没有什么名称。

Poppy Crum: Mm.

罂粟花粉：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: We have names for the goal, like, "I want to be able to work." Okay, what's work?

Andrew Huberman：我们为目标命名，例如“我希望能够工作”。好吧，工作是什么？

What kind of work?

什么样的工作？

"I want to write a chapter of a book." What kind of book?

“我想写一本书的一个章节。”什么样的书？

"A non-fiction book." Based on what?

“一本非小说类书籍。”基于什么？

But, like, we talk about alpha, beta waves, theta waves, but I feel like as neuroscientists, we have done a pretty poor job, as a field, of defining different states of wakefulness.

但是，就像我们谈论阿尔法波、贝塔波、西塔波一样，但我觉得作为神经科学家，我们作为一个领域在定义不同的清醒状态方面做得相当糟糕。

Andrew Huberman: And so the technology, AI and other technologies don't really have...

Andrew Huberman：所以技术、人工智能和其他技术并没有真正......

They don't know what to shoot for.

他们不知道该拍什么。

They don't know what to help us optimize for, whereas with slow wave sleep and REM sleep, like, we've got it.

他们不知道如何帮助我们优化，而通过慢波睡眠和快速眼动睡眠，我们已经做到了。

I ask questions of myself all the time, like, "Is my brain and what it requires in the first three hours of the day anything like what my brain requires in the last three hours of the day, if I want to work in each one of those three-hour compartments?"

我总是问自己一些问题，比如，“如果我想在这三个小时的每一个时间段里工作，我的大脑及其在一天的前三个小时的需求是否与我的大脑在一天的最后三个小时的需求一样？”

Andrew Huberman: And so I think, like, we don't really understand what to try and adjust to.

安德鲁·休伯曼：所以我认为，我们并不真正了解要尝试和适应什么。

So here's my question.

这是我的问题。

Do you think AI could help us understand the different states that our brain and body go through during the daytime?

您认为人工智能可以帮助我们了解白天大脑和身体经历的不同状态吗？

Give us some understanding of what those are in terms of body temperature, focus ability, et cetera, and then help us optimize for those the same way that we optimize for sleep?

让我们对体温、专注能力等方面有一些了解，然后帮助我们像优化睡眠一样优化这些？

Andrew Huberman: Because whether it's a conversation with your therapist, whether or not it's a podcast, whether or not it's playing with your kids, whether or not it's Netflix and chill, whatever it is, the goal, and what people have spent so much time, energy, money, et cetera on, whether or not they're drinking alcohol, caffeine, taking Ritalin or Adderall, or running, humans have spent their entire existence trying to build technologies to get better at doing the things that they need to do, and yet we still don't really understand waking states.

Andrew Huberman：因为无论是与治疗师的对话，无论是不是播客，无论是不是和孩子一起玩，无论是不是 Netflix 和 chill，无论它是什么，目标是什么，以及人们花费了如此多的时间、精力、金钱等的东西，无论他们是否喝酒、咖啡因、服用利他林或阿得拉，还是跑步，人类一生都在努力构建技术，以更好地做到这一点他们需要做的事情，但我们仍然不真正了解清醒状态。

So can AI teach it to us?

那么人工智能可以教我们吗？

Can AI teach us a goal that we don't even know we have?

人工智能能否教给我们一个我们甚至不知道自己拥有的目标？

Poppy Crum: Can AI teach it to us?

Poppy Crum：人工智能可以教我们吗？

I would say AI is part of the story, but before we get AI, we need better, more data.

我想说人工智能是故事的一部分，但在我们获得人工智能之前，我们需要更好、更多的数据。

Not just me, right?

不只是我，对吧？

So maybe I am very focused right now, but without, my belief, and this is my perspective is, imagine I am very focused right now.

所以也许我现在非常专注，但是如果没有我的信念，这就是我的观点，想象一下我现在非常专注。

I need to know the context of my environment that's driving that.

我需要了解推动这一趋势的环境背景。

Like, what's in that environment?

比如，那个环境里有什么？

Is it internal focus that's gotten me there?

是内心的专注让我到达了那里吗？

What is my environment?

我的环境是什么？

Poppy Crum: What is that external environment?

Poppy Crum：外部环境是什么？

So understanding my awake state, for me, is very dependent on the data and interactions that happen from these different environments.

因此，对我来说，理解我的清醒状态非常依赖于这些不同环境中发生的数据和交互。

Let me give an example.

让我举个例子。

Like, if I'm in my home, or say I'm in a vehicle, all right?

就像，如果我在家里，或者说我在车里，好吗？

And you are measuring information about me, and you know I'm under stress, or you know I'm experiencing joy or heightened attention right now.

你正在测量有关我的信息，你知道我正处于压力之下，或者你知道我现在正在经历快乐或高度关注。

Poppy Crum: Some different states you may want to have my home or my system react to mitigate.

Poppy Crum：您可能想让我的家或我的系统做出反应以缓解某些不同的状态。

Andrew Huberman: Well, like, if you get sleepy in a smart vehicle, it will make adjustments.

Andrew Huberman：嗯，就像，如果你在智能汽车里犯困了，它会做出调整。

Poppy Crum: Mm-hmm.

Poppy Crum：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: Potentially it will make adjustments, but not necessarily right for you.

Poppy Crum：它可能会做出调整，但不一定适合你。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: That's an important part, is optimizing for personalization and how a system responds.

Poppy Crum：这是一个重要的部分，正在优化个性化以及系统的响应方式。

And, you know, it can make any home, an HVAC system or the internal state of a vehicle is going to adjust, you know, sound, background sound, music, it's going to adjust whatever whether it can, haptic feedback, temperature, lighting, you know, any number of, you know, position of your chair, dynamics of what's in your space.

而且，你知道，它可以使任何家庭、暖通空调系统或车辆的内部状态进行调整，你知道，声音、背景声音、音乐，它会调整任何可能的东西，触觉反馈、温度、照明，你知道，任何数量的、你知道的、你的椅子的位置、你的空间中的动态。

All of these different systems in my home or my other, you know...

我家里或其他地方的所有这些不同的系统，你知道......

My vehicle, if it...

我的车，如果...

Or, some other system can react, right?

或者，其他一些系统可以做出反应，对吗？

But the important thing is how you react is going to shift me, and the goal is to not measure me, but to actually intersect with my state and move it in some direction, right?

但重要的是你的反应将改变我，目标不是衡量我，而是真正与我的状态相交并将其朝某个方向移动，对吗？

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: Some...

罂粟花粉：一些……

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I always think of devices as good at measurement or modification.

Andrew Huberman：是的，我一直认为设备擅长测量或修改。

Poppy Crum: Right.

罂粟花粉：对。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: Measurement or modification.

Poppy Crum：测量或修改。

Measurement is critical, and that's...

测量至关重要，那就是……

Yeah.

是的。

But measurement not just of me, but also of my environment and understanding of the external environment.

但衡量的不仅仅是我自己，还有我的环境以及对外部环境的理解。

And this is where things like Earth observation and understanding, you know, we're getting to a place where we're getting, you know, really good image quality data from the satellites that are going in the sky at much lower distances so that you now have, you know, faster reaction times between technologies and the information they have to understand and be dynamic with them, right?

这就是地球观测和理解之类的事情，你知道，我们正在达到这样一个地步：我们从天空中距离更近的卫星获得非常好的图像质量数据，这样你现在就可以在技术和他们必须理解的信息之间做出更快的反应时间，并与它们保持动态，对吗？

Andrew Huberman: Can you give me an example where that impacts everyday life?

Andrew Huberman：你能给我举一个影响日常生活的例子吗？

Are we talking about, like, weather analysis?

我们是在谈论天气分析之类的吗？

Poppy Crum: Sure.

罂粟克拉姆：当然。

Weather predictions, car environment...

天气预报、汽车环境...

You know, things happening.

你知道，事情正在发生。

Andrew Huberman: Uh-huh.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 嗯。

Andrew Huberman: And what about traffic?

安德鲁·休伯曼：那么交通呢？

Why haven't they solved traffic yet given all the knowledge of object flow and how to optimize for object flow?

为什么他们还没有解决流量问题，还没有给出对象流的所有知识以及如何优化对象流？

And we've got satellites that can basically look at traffic, I mean, and open up roads dynamically, like change number of lanes.

我的意思是，我们的卫星基本上可以观察交通状况，并动态地开辟道路，例如改变车道数量。

Why isn't that happening?

为什么没有发生这种情况？

Poppy Crum: The traffic problem gets resolved when you have autonomous vehicles in ways that don't have, like, the human side of things.

Poppy Crum：当你拥有自动驾驶汽车时，交通问题就会得到解决，而自动驾驶汽车却没有人性化的一面。

Andrew Huberman: That gets resolved?

Andrew Huberman：这个问题得到解决了吗？

Poppy Crum: It does.

Poppy Crum：确实如此。

Like-

就像-

Andrew Huberman: Autonomous vehicles can solve traffic?

Andrew Huberman：自动驾驶汽车可以解决交通问题吗？

Poppy Crum: Fully autonomous vehicles.

Poppy Crum：全自动驾驶汽车。

You don't have traffic in the ways that you do with, you know, human behavior.

你知道，你的交通方式与人类行为不同。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman: My goodness, that's reason alone.

Andrew Huberman：天哪，这就是原因。

That's reason alone to shift to autonomous vehicles.

这就是转向自动驾驶汽车的唯一原因。

Poppy Crum: It is that injection from the human system that, you know, is interrupting all the models.

Poppy Crum：您知道，来自人体系统的注入正在中断所有模型。

I think the world right now, we think about wearables a lot.

我认为现在的世界，我们对可穿戴设备的思考很多。

Wearables track us.

可穿戴设备跟踪我们。

You have smart mattresses, which are wonderful for understanding.

你有智能床垫，非常有助于理解。

There's so much you learn, you know, from a smart mattress and ways of also both measuring as well as intervening to optimize your sleep, which is the beauty, and it's this nice, incredible period of time where you can measure so many things.

您知道，您可以从智能床垫中学到很多东西，以及测量和干预以优化睡眠的方法，这就是美妙之处，在这段美好而令人难以置信的时期，您可以测量这么多东西。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: But, you know, in our home...

Poppy Crum：但是，你知道，在我们家里......

I used the example of a thermostat, right?

我用了恒温器的例子，对吧？

It's pretty, you know, frankly dumb about what my goals are or what I'm trying to do at that moment in time, but it doesn't have to be.

你知道，坦率地说，关于我的目标是什么或我当时想要做什么，这很愚蠢，但事实并非如此。

You know, there's a company, PassiveLogic.

你知道，有一家公司，PassiveLogic。

I love them.

我爱他们。

Poppy Crum: They actually have, I think, some of the smartest digital twin HVAC systems but, you know, their sensors measure things like sound.

Poppy Crum：我认为，他们实际上拥有一些最智能的数字孪生暖通空调系统，但是，你知道，他们的传感器可以测量声音等东西。

They measure carbon dioxide, your CO2 levels.

他们测量二氧化碳，即您的二氧化碳水平。

Like, when we breathe, we give off CO2, you know.

就像，当我们呼吸时，我们会释放二氧化碳，你知道。

So imagine, there's a dynamic mixture of acetone, isoprene, and carbon dioxide that's constantly exchanging when I get stressed or when I'm feeling, you know, happiness or suspense in my state.

所以想象一下，当我感到压力或当我感到幸福或悬念时，丙酮、异戊二烯和二氧化碳的动态混合物会不断交换。

And that dynamic sort of cocktail mixture that's in my breath is both an indicator of my state, but it's also something that, you know...

我呼吸中那种充满活力的鸡尾酒混合物既是我状态的一个指标，但它也是，你知道的......

It's just the spaces around me have more information to contribute about how I'm feeling, and can also be part of that solution in ways that I don't have to have things on my body, right?

只是我周围的空间可以提供更多关于我的感受的信息，并且也可以成为该解决方案的一部分，而我不必在身上携带任何东西，对吗？

Poppy Crum: So, I have sensors now that can measure CO2.

Poppy Crum：所以，我现在有了可以测量二氧化碳的传感器。

You can watch my TED Talk.

你可以观看我的 TED 演讲。

I have given examples.

我已经举了例子。

We brought people in when I was at Dolby and had them watching "Free Solo," you know, the Alex Honnold movie where they're climbing El Cap.

当我在杜比工作时，我们带人进来，让他们观看“Free Solo”，你知道，亚历克斯·霍诺德 (Alex Honnold) 的电影，他们正在攀登 El Cap。

Andrew Huberman: Stressful.

安德鲁·休伯曼：压力很大。

Poppy Crum: So, carbon dioxide's heavier than air, so we could measure carbon dioxide from, you know, just tubes on the ground, and you could get the real-time differential of CO2 in there, and-

Poppy Crum：所以，二氧化碳比空气重，所以我们可以从地面上的管道中测量二氧化碳，你可以得到那里二氧化碳的实时差异，并且-

Andrew Huberman: Were they scared throughout?

Andrew Huberman：他们自始至终都感到害怕吗？

Poppy Crum: No. Well, but I mean, I like to say we broadcast how we're feeling, right?

Poppy Crum：不。好吧，但我的意思是，我想说我们会广播我们的感受，对吧？

And we do that wherever we are.

无论我们身在何处，我们都会这样做。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: And in this, you could look at the time series of carbon dioxide levels and be able to know what was happening in the film or in the movie without actually having it annotated.

Poppy Crum：在这个中，你可以查看二氧化碳水平的时间序列，并且能够知道电影中或电影中发生了什么，而无需实际注释。

You could tell where he summited, where he had to abandon his climb, where he hurt his ankle.

你可以看出他在哪里登顶，在哪里不得不放弃攀爬，在哪里伤到了脚踝。

Andrew Huberman: Really?

安德鲁·休伯曼：真的吗？

Poppy Crum: Absolutely.

罂粟花：当然。

There's another study, I forget who the authors are, and you know, they've got different audiences watching "Hunger Games," and different days, different people.

还有另一项研究，我忘了作者是谁，你知道，他们有不同的观众观看《饥饿游戏》，在不同的日子，不同的人。

You can tell exactly where Katniss's dress catches on fire.

你可以准确地判断出凯特尼斯的裙子着火的地方。

And it's like we really are sort of...

就好像我们真的有点......

You know, it's like digital exhaust of how we're feeling.

你知道，这就像我们感受的数字耗尽。

And our thermals, we radiate the things we're feeling.

我们的热气流会散发出我们所感受到的东西。

I'm very bullish on the power of, you know, our eye in representing our cognitive load, our stressors-

我非常看好我们的眼睛代表我们的认知负荷和压力源的力量——

Andrew Huberman: RI?

安德鲁·休伯曼：RI？

Poppy Crum: Our eye, yes.

Poppy Crum：我们的眼睛，是的。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: Like, the diameter-

Poppy Crum：就像，直径-

Andrew Huberman: Oh, our eye.

安德鲁·休伯曼：哦，我们的眼睛。

Poppy Crum: Our...

罂粟花粉：我们的...

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, our eye.

Andrew Huberman：是的，我们的眼睛。

Sorry, literally our eyes.

对不起，字面上是我们的眼睛。

Poppy Crum: Yes.

罂粟花粉：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Our pupil size.

Andrew Huberman：我们的瞳孔大小。

Poppy Crum: Yes, yes, yes.

Poppy Crum：是的，是的，是的。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，是的。

Poppy Crum: You know, back when I was a physiologist, I always...

Poppy Crum：你知道，当我还是一名生理学家时，我总是......

You know, where I've worked with a lot of species in understanding information processing internally in cells, but also then I would very often use pupillometry as an indicator of, you know, a perceptual engagement and experience.

你知道，我曾与许多物种一起了解细胞内部的信息处理，但我也经常使用瞳孔测量作为感知参与和体验的指标。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, bigger pupils mean more arousal, higher levels of alertness.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，更大的瞳孔意味着更多的兴奋和更高的警觉性。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: And we should know this.

Andrew Huberman：我们应该知道这一点。

Poppy Crum: More arousal, cognitive load, or, you know, obviously lighting changes.

Poppy Crum：更多的唤醒、认知负荷，或者，你知道，明显的灯光变化。

But the thing that's changing from, you know, 20 years ago, 15 years ago, it was very expensive to track the kind of resolution and data to leverage all of those autonomic nervous system, deterministic responses.

但情况正在发生变化，你知道，20 年前、15 年前，跟踪分辨率和数据以利用所有这些自主神经系统和确定性反应的成本非常昂贵。

Because those ones are deterministic and not probabilistic, right?

因为这些是确定性的而不是概率性的，对吗？

Those are the ones that it's like the body's reacting even if the brain doesn't say anything about it.

这些就是身体的反应，即使大脑对此没有任何反应。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Below conscious detection.

Andrew Huberman：低于意识检测。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

Poppy Crum: But today we can do that with a...

Poppy Crum：但今天我们可以通过......来做到这一点

I mean, well, we can do it right now with a, you know, open source software on our laptops or our mobile devices, right?

我的意思是，我们现在就可以在笔记本电脑或移动设备上使用开源软件来做到这一点，对吧？

And every pair of smart glasses will be tracking this information when we wear them.

当我们佩戴每副智能眼镜时，它们都会跟踪这些信息。

So it becomes a channel of data.

所以它成为一个数据的通道。

And it may be an ambiguous signature in the sense that there are changes in lighting, am I aroused or am I, you know-

这可能是一个模棱两可的签名，因为光线发生了变化，我是被唤醒了还是我，你知道——

Andrew Huberman: But those can be adjusted for, right?

Andrew Huberman：但是这些是可以调整的，对吗？

Like, you can literally take a measurement, wear eyeglasses that are measuring pupil size.

就像，你可以直接进行测量，戴上测量瞳孔大小的眼镜。

Poppy Crum: Mm-hmm.

Poppy Crum：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: The eyeglasses could have a sensor that detects levels of illumination in the room at the level of my eyes.

Andrew Huberman：眼镜可以有一个传感器，可以检测房间内我眼睛水平的照明水平。

Poppy Crum: Mm-hmm.

Poppy Crum：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: Mm-hmm.

Poppy Crum：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: It could measure how dynamic that is, and we can just make that the denominator in a fraction, right?

Andrew Huberman：它可以衡量动态程度，我们可以将其作为分数的分母，对吧？

And then we can just look at changes in pupil size as the numerator in that fraction, right?

然后我们可以将瞳孔大小的变化视为该分数的分子，对吗？

Poppy Crum: Yep.

罂粟花粉：是的。

Andrew Huberman: More or less.

安德鲁·休伯曼：或多或少。

Poppy Crum: You just have to have other sensors.

Poppy Crum：你只需要有其他传感器即可。

Andrew Huberman: And then, all you need to do is cancel...

Andrew Huberman：然后，您所需要做的就是取消......

So as you walk from a shadowed area to a brighter area, sure, the pupil size changes, but then you can adjust for that change, right?

因此，当您从阴影区域走到较亮区域时，瞳孔大小当然会发生变化，但您可以根据这种变化进行调整，对吗？

Andrew Huberman: You just, like, normalize for that, and you end up with an index of arousal.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：你只是，喜欢，正常化，你最终会得到一个唤醒指数。

Poppy Crum: Yep.

罂粟花粉：是的。

Poppy Crum: Right.

罂粟花粉：对。

Andrew Huberman: Which is amazing.

安德鲁·休伯曼：这太棒了。

You could also use the index of illumination as a useful measure of, like, are you getting, compared to your vitamin D levels, to your levels of...

您还可以使用照度指数作为有用的衡量标准，例如，与您的维生素 D 水平相比，您是否获得了……的水平。

Maybe you need more illumination in order to get more arousal.

也许您需要更多的照明才能获得更多的兴奋。

Like, it could tell you all of this.

就像，它可以告诉你所有这些。

It could literally say, "Hey, take a five-minute walk outside to the left after work, and you will get your photon requirement for the day." You know, this kind of thing, not just measuring steps.

它实际上可以说，“嘿，下班后向左步行五分钟，你就会得到当天的光子需求。”要知道，这种事情，不仅仅是测量步数那么简单。

Poppy Crum: Mm-hmm.

Poppy Crum：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: All this stuff is possible now.

Andrew Huberman：现在所有这些都是可能的。

Poppy Crum: Mm-hmm.

Poppy Crum：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: I just don't know why it's not being integrated into single devices more quickly.

Andrew Huberman：我只是不知道为什么它没有更快地集成到单个设备中。

Because you'd love to also know that person's blood sugar instead of, like, drawing their blood, taking it down to the lab.

因为你也想知道那个人的血糖，而不是抽血，带到实验室。

Like, you think about...

比如，你想...

With the resident that's been up for 13 hours because that's the standard in the field, and they're making mistakes on a chart.

住院医生已经熬夜了 13 个小时，因为这是现场的标准，但他们在图表上犯了错误。

It's like, I think at some point, we're just going to go, "I can't believe we used to do it that way.

就像，我想在某个时候，我们会说，“我不敢相信我们曾经这样做过。

It's crazy."

这太疯狂了。”

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

No, and a lot of the consumer devices and just computation, we can do from, you know, whether it's cameras or exhalant or, you know, other data in our environments that tell us about our physical state.

不，我们可以通过许多消费设备和计算来完成，无论是相机还是呼气，或者是我们环境中的其他数据，这些数据可以告诉我们我们的身体状态。

And some of these situations that you're talking about, I mean, why isn't it happening?

我的意思是，你所谈论的一些情况为什么没有发生？

A lot of the reasons are simply the regulatory process is antiquated and not up to keeping up with the acceleration of innovation that's happening.

很多原因只是监管流程过时，跟不上正在发生的创新的加速。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: You know, getting things through the FDA, even if they're deemed in the same ballpark and supposed to move fast, with the regulatory costs and processes, is really high.

Poppy Crum：你知道，通过 FDA 获得批准，即使它们被认为处于同一范围并且应该快速行动，但监管成本和流程确实很高。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: You know, you end up many years down the road from when the capability and the data and technology actually should've arisen to be used in a hospital or to be used in a place where you actually have that kind of appreciation for the data and use.

Poppy Crum：你知道，距离能力、数据和技术实际上应该出现在医院或在你真正对数据和使用有这种欣赏的地方使用的时候，你最终会经历很多年。

The consumer-grade devices for tracking of data of our biological processes are on par, and in many cases, surpassed the medical-grade devices.

用于跟踪我们生物过程数据的消费级设备与医疗级设备相当，并且在许多情况下超过了医疗级设备。

Poppy Crum: And that's because they just have, but then they will have to bill what they do and what they're tracking in some way that is consumer, you know, is not making the medical claims to allow them to be able to continue to move forward in those spaces.

Poppy Crum：那是因为他们只是这样做了，但是他们将不得不对他们所做的事情以及他们以某种方式跟踪的事情进行计费，你知道，消费者并没有做出医疗声明，让他们能够继续在这些领域前进。

But there's no question that that's a big part of what holds back the availability of a lot of these devices and capabilities.

但毫无疑问，这是阻碍许多此类设备和功能可用性的一个重要原因。

Andrew Huberman: I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function.

Andrew Huberman：我想稍微休息一下，并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。

Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.

去年，在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我成为了 Function 成员。

Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health.

Function 提供 100 多项高级实验室测试，为您提供整个身体健康状况的关键快照。

This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more.

此快照为您提供有关心脏健康、激素健康、免疫功能、营养水平等方面的见解。

Andrew Huberman: They've also recently added tests for toxins such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics and tests for PFASs or forever chemicals.

Andrew Huberman：他们最近还增加了毒素测试，例如有害塑料中的 BPA 暴露以及 PFAS 或永久化学物质的测试。

Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas.

Function 不仅提供对您的身心健康至关重要的 100 多种生物标记物的测试，而且还分析这些结果并提供相关领域专家的顶级医生的见解。

For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood.

例如，在我第一次使用 Function 进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量升高。

Andrew Huberman: Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification.

Andrew Huberman：功能不仅帮助我发现了这一点，而且还提供了如何最好地降低汞含量的见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼摄入量，我一直在吃大量金枪鱼​​，同时还努力多吃绿叶蔬菜并补充 NAC、N-乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒。

And I should say, by taking a second Function test, that approach worked.

我应该说，通过进行第二次功能测试，这种方法奏效了。

Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important.

全面的血液检测至关重要。

There are so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test.

有很多与您的心理和身体健康相关的事情只能通过血液检查来检测。

Andrew Huberman: The problem is, blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated.

Andrew Huberman：问题是，血液检测一直非常昂贵且复杂。

In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost.

相比之下，Function 的简单性和成本水平给我留下了深刻的印象。

It is very affordable.

这是非常实惠的。

As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.

因此，我决定加入他们的科学顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。

If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman.

如果您想尝试 Function，可以访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。

Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman podcast listeners.

Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等待名单，但他们正在为 Huberman 播客听众提供早期访问服务。

Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.

同样，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。

Andrew Huberman: Okay, so I agree that we need more data and that there are a lot of different sensors out there that can measure blood glucose and sleep and temperature and breathing and all sorts of things, which raises the question of, are we going to need tons of sensors?

Andrew Huberman：好的，我同意我们需要更多的数据，并且有很多不同的传感器可以测量血糖、睡眠、体温、呼吸以及各种各样的东西，这就提出了一个问题，我们是否需要大量的传感器？

I mean, are we going to be just wrapped in sensors as clothing?

我的意思是，我们会像衣服一样包裹在传感器中吗？

Are we going to be wearing 12 watches?

我们要戴12块手表吗？

What's this going to look like?

这会是什么样子？

Poppy Crum: I'm an advocate for fewer things on, you know, not having all this stuff on our bodies.

Poppy Crum：我主张少穿一些东西，你知道，不要把所有这些东西穿在我们身上。

There's so much we can get out of the computer vision side, you know, the cameras in our spaces and how they're supporting us in our rooms, the sensors in our...

我们可以从计算机视觉方面获得很多东西，你知道，我们空间中的摄像头以及它们如何在我们的房间中支持我们，我们的传感器......

You know, I brought up HVAC systems earlier.

你知道，我之前提到过暖通空调系统。

So, now you've got effectively a digital twin and sensors that are tracking my metabolic rates just in my space.

所以，现在你已经有效地拥有了一个数字双胞胎和传感器，可以在我的空间中跟踪我的新陈代谢率。

Poppy Crum: They're tracking carbon dioxide.

Poppy Crum：他们正在追踪二氧化碳。

They're tracking sound.

他们正在追踪声音。

You're getting context because of that.

因此你得到了上下文。

You're getting intelligence, and now you're able to start having more information from, you know, what's happening in my environment.

你正在获得情报，现在你可以开始从我的环境中发生的事情中获得更多信息。

The same is true in my vehicle.

我的车也是如此。

You can tell whether I'm stressed or how I'm feeling just by the posture I have sitting in my car.

您可以通过我坐在车里的姿势判断我是否有压力或感觉如何。

Right?

正确的？

And you need AI.

你需要人工智能。

This is AI interpretation of data.

这是人工智能对数据的解释。

Poppy Crum: But what's driving that posture might be coming from also an understanding of what else is happening in that environment.

Poppy Crum：但是推动这种姿势的原因可能还在于对该环境中发生的其他事情的了解。

So it's suddenly, with contextual intelligence, AI-driven understanding of what's happening in that space that's driving, you know, the state of me, and how do I...

所以突然之间，有了情境智能，人工智能驱动的对那个空间中发生的事情的理解，驱动着我的状态，以及我如何......

I keep leaning to the side because I'm thinking about the way I move and sit.

我一直向一侧倾斜，因为我在思考自己移动和坐下的方式。

You know, it's a proxy for what's actually happening inside me.

你知道，它代表了我内心实际发生的事情。

And then you've also got data around me coming from my environment.

然后你还可以获得来自我的环境的我周围的数据。

Poppy Crum: What's happening, you know, if I'm driving a car, or what's happening in my home, in the weather, and not just threats that might be outside, and noise that's happening not inside the space, but things that give context to have more intelligence with the systems we have.

Poppy Crum：你知道，如果我正在开车，或者家里发生了什么事，天气情况，不仅仅是外部可能发生的威胁，以及不在空间内发生的噪音，而是为我们拥有的系统提供更多智能的背景信息。

Poppy Crum: So I'm a huge believer in we aren't anywhere until we have integration of those systems between the body, the local environment, and the external environment.

Poppy Crum：所以我坚信，除非我们将身体、局部环境和外部环境之间的这些系统整合起来，否则我们就没有任何进展。

And we're finally at a place where AI can help us start integrating that data.

我们终于到达了人工智能可以帮助我们开始整合这些数据的阶段。

In terms of wearables, though, so obviously some of the big companies.

不过，就可穿戴设备而言，显然是一些大公司。

The watch we have on our hand has a lot of information that is very relevant to our bodies.

我们手上的手表有很多与我们身体非常相关的信息。

Poppy Crum: The devices we put in our ears, you may not realize but, you know, a dime-sized patch in your concha, we can know heart rate, blood oxygen level, because the electrical signature that your eye produces when it moves back and forth.

Poppy Crum：你可能没有意识到，我们放在耳朵里的设备，但是，你知道，你的外耳中有一毛钱大小的贴片，我们可以知道心率、血氧水平，因为你的眼睛来回移动时产生的电信号。

We can know what you're looking at just from measuring a signature, measuring your electrooculogram in your ear.

我们只需通过测量特征、测量您耳中的眼电图就可以知道您在看什么。

Poppy Crum: We can measure EEG, electroencephalograms.

Poppy Crum：我们可以测量脑电图、脑电图。

You can also get, you know, eye movements out of electroencephalograms, but you can get attention, you can know what people are attending to based on signatures in their ear.

你也可以从脑电图中获得眼球运动，但你可以引起注意，你可以根据人们耳朵里的特征知道他们在注意什么。

So our earbuds, you know, that become sort of a window to our state.

所以我们的耳塞，你知道，成为了解我们状态的窗口。

And you've got a number of companies working on that right now.

现在有很多公司正在致力于此。

You know, so do we need to wear lots of different sensors?

你知道，我们需要佩戴很多不同的传感器吗？

No.

不。

Poppy Crum: Do we need to have the sensors, the data we have, whether it's on our bodies or off our bodies, be able to work together and not be proprietary to just one company, but to be able to integrate with other companies?

Poppy Crum：我们是否需要拥有传感器、我们拥有的数据，无论是在我们身上还是在我们身体之外，能够协同工作，而不是只属于一家公司专有，而是能够与其他公司集成？

That becomes really important.

这变得非常重要。

You need integrative systems so that the data they have can interact with the systems that surround you, or surround my spaces, or the mattress I'm sleeping on.

您需要集成系统，以便它们拥有的数据可以与您周围、我的空间或我睡觉的床垫周围的系统进行交互。

Right?

正确的？

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: Because you've had a lot of specialty of design come from different developers, and that's partly been a product of, again, the FDA and the regulatory pathways because of the cost of development.

Poppy Crum：因为有很多来自不同开发商的专业设计，而且由于开发成本的原因，这部分是 FDA 和监管途径的产物。

It tends to move companies towards specialization unless they're very large.

它往往会促使公司走向专业化，除非它们非常大。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: But where we're at today is we're getting to a point where you're going to start seeing a lot of this data get integrated, I think.

Poppy Crum：但我认为，我们今天所处的阶段是，您将开始看到大量数据得到整合。

And by all means, hopefully we're not going to be wearing a lot of things on our bodies.

无论如何，希望我们不会在身上穿太多东西。

I sure as heck won't.

我肯定不会。

You know, the more we put on our bodies, it affects our gait, it has ramifications in so many different ways.

你知道，我们穿得越多，它就会影响我们的步态，它会以多种不同的方式产生影响。

When I got here, I was talking to some of the people that work with you, and they were like, "Well, what wearables do you wear?" And I actually don't wear many at all.

当我到达这里时，我正在与一些与你一起工作的人交谈，他们说，“那么，你穿什么可穿戴设备？”事实上我根本不穿很多衣服。

And, you know, I have worn rings, I've worn watches at different times.

而且，你知道，我戴过戒指，在不同的时间戴过手表。

Poppy Crum: But for me, the importance is the point at which I get insights that...

Poppy Crum：但对我来说，重要的是我获得的见解......

You know, I am a big believer in as little on my body as possible when it comes to wearables.

你知道，当谈到可穿戴设备时，我坚信身体上的东西越少越好。

One interesting company that I think is worth mentioning is Pison.

我认为值得一提的一家有趣的公司是 Pison。

And Pison, you know, again, they've got a form factor that's like a Timex watch, they're partnered with Timex, but they're measuring...

Pison，你知道，再一次，他们有一个类似于 Timex 手表的外形，他们与 Timex 合作，但他们正在测量......

Are you familiar with Pison?

你熟悉皮松吗？

Andrew Huberman: No.

安德鲁·休伯曼：不。

Poppy Crum: Okay.

罂粟花粉：好的。

So they're measuring psychomotor vigilance.

所以他们正在测量精神运动警惕性。

So, you know, really trying to understand, it's like a ENG, electroneuromodulation, and they're trying to understand fatigue and neural attentiveness in a way that is continuous and useful for, say, high-risk operations or training, you know, whether it be in sport.

所以，你知道，真正试图理解，就像 ENG，电子神经调节，他们试图以一种连续且有用的方式来理解疲劳和神经注意力，例如，高风险操作或训练，你知道，无论是在运动中。

Poppy Crum: But what I like about it is, it's actually trying to get at a higher level cognitive state from the biometrics that you're measuring.

Poppy Crum：但我喜欢它的是，它实际上试图从您正在测量的生物识别中获得更高水平的认知状态。

And that, to me, is a really exciting direction, is when you're actually doing something that you could make a decision about how I engage in my work, or how I engage in my training or my life based on that data about my cognitive state and how effective I'm going to be.

对我来说，这是一个非常令人兴奋的方向，就是当你真正做某事时，你可以根据有关我的认知状态的数据以及我的效率来决定我如何参与我的工作，或者我如何参与我的培训或我的生活。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: And then I can start associating that data with the other data to have better decisions, better insights at a certain point in time.

Poppy Crum：然后我可以开始将该数据与其他数据关联起来，以便在某个时间点做出更好的决策、更好的见解。

And that's really your digital twin.

这确实是您的数字孪生。

Andrew Huberman: It's interesting, earlier you said you don't like the word gamification.

Andrew Huberman：很有趣，之前你说过你不喜欢游戏化这个词。

Poppy Crum: Mmm.

罂粟花：嗯。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman: But, one thing that I think has really been effective in the sleep space has been this notion of a sleep score, where people aspire to get a high sleep score.

Andrew Huberman：但是，我认为在睡眠领域真正有效的一件事是睡眠分数的概念，人们渴望获得高睡眠分数。

Poppy Crum: Mm-hmm.

Poppy Crum：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: And if they don't, they don't see that as a disparagement of them, but rather that they need to adjust their behavior.

安德鲁·休伯曼：如果他们不这样做，他们不会认为这是对他们的贬低，而是认为他们需要调整自己的行为。

So, it's not like, "Oh, I'm a terrible sleeper and I'll never be a good sleeper." It gives them something to aspire to on a night by night basis.

所以，这并不是说，“哦，我睡得很糟糕，而且我永远不会睡个好觉。”它给了他们每晚都渴望的东西。

Poppy Crum: Yes.

罂粟花粉：是的。

Andrew Huberman: And I feel like that's been pretty effective.

Andrew Huberman：我觉得这非常有效。

When I say gamification, I don't necessarily mean competitive with others, but I mean encouraging of oneself, right?

当我说游戏化时，我不一定是指与他人竞争，而是指对自己的鼓励，对吧？

So, I could imagine this showing up in other domains too, for wakeful states.

所以，我可以想象这也会出现在其他领域，对于清醒状态。

Like, I had very few highly distracted work bouts or something like that.

就像，我很少有高度分心的工作或类似的事情。

Like I'd love to know at the end of my day, I had three really solid work bouts of an hour each at least.

就像我很想在一天结束时知道的那样，我至少进行了三轮真正扎实的训练，每次一小时。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: That would feel good.

安德鲁·休伯曼：那感觉很好。

It was like, oh, that was a day well spent, even if I didn't accomplish what I wanted to in its entirety.

就好像，哦，这一天过得很值，即使我没有完全完成我想要的事情。

I put in some really good solid work.

我做了一些非常扎实的工作。

Right now, it's all very subjective.

现在，这一切都是非常主观的。

We know that gamification of steps was very effective as a public messaging.

我们知道，步骤游戏化作为公共信息传递非常有效。

You know, 10,000 steps a day, we now know you want to get somewhere exceeding 7,000 as the threshold.

您知道，每天 10,000 步，我们现在知道您想要达到超过 7,000 步的阈值。

But if you think about it, we could've just as easily said, "Hey, you want to walk at a reasonable pace for you for 30 minutes per day."

但如果你仔细想想，我们也可以轻松地说：“嘿，你想每天以适合自己的合理配速步行 30 分钟。”

Poppy Crum: Mm-hmm.

Poppy Crum：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: But somehow, the "counting steps" thing was more effective because people I know who are not fanatic about exercise at all will tell me, "I make sure I get my 11,000 steps per day." Like, people tell me this.

Andrew Huberman：但不知何故，“计算步数”的方法更有效，因为我认识的那些对锻炼一点也不热衷的人会告诉我，“我确保每天走 11,000 步。”就像，人们告诉我这个。

I'm like, "Oh, okay." So, apparently it's a meaningful thing for people.

我说：“哦，好吧。”所以，显然这对人们来说是一件有意义的事情。

So, I think quantification of performance creates this aspirational state.

所以，我认为绩效的量化创造了这种理想的状态。

Poppy Crum: Mm-hmm.

Poppy Crum：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: So, I think that can be very useful.

Andrew Huberman：所以，我认为这非常有用。

Poppy Crum: Data and understanding the quantification that you're working towards is really important.

Poppy Crum：数据和理解您正在努力实现的量化非常重要。

Those are summary statistics effectively that maybe they're good on some level to aim for if it means that people move more.

这些是有效的汇总统计数据，如果这意味着人们移动得更多，那么它们在某种程度上可能是很好的目标。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: All for it, right?

Poppy Crum：一切都是为了它，对吧？

And it's something that if I didn't move as much before, and I didn't get up, and I didn't do something and this is making me do it, that's awesome or that's great.

如果我以前没有那么频繁地活动，没有站起来，没有做某事，而这促使我去做，那就太棒了，或者说太棒了。

Poppy Crum: But it's also great when now through like a computer vision app, I can understand it's not just 10,000 steps, but maybe there's a small battery of things I'm trying to perform against that are helping shape me neurally with the feedback, and the targets that I'm getting so that there's a little more nuance towards achieving the goal I'm aiming for, which is what I'm all about from a neuroplasticity perspective.

Poppy Crum：但是现在通过像计算机视觉应用程序一样，我可以理解它不仅仅是 10,000 个步骤，但也许我正在尝试执行的一小部分东西正在帮助我通过反馈和目标来塑造我的神经，这样在实现我所设定的目标时会有更多的细微差别，这就是从神经可塑性角度来看我所关心的。

So, I just don't like the word gamification.

所以，我只是不喜欢游戏化这个词。

I believe everything should be fun.

我相信一切都应该很有趣。

Or training can be fun and gamified in some ways.

或者训练在某些方面可以很有趣并且可以游戏化。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: Again, my life has been predominantly in industry but I love teaching and I've always been at Stanford to really...

Poppy Crum：再说一次，我的生活主要是在工业界，但我喜欢教学，而且我一直在斯坦福大学真正......

There I try to...

在那里我尝试...

It's how do I use technology and merge it with the human system in a way that does help optimize learning in and training in a way that is from a sort of neural circuit first perspective.

这就是我如何使用技术并将其与人类系统融合，从而以某种方式从神经回路第一的角度帮助优化学习和训练。

How do we think about the neural system and use this more enjoyable understandable target to engage with it.

我们如何思考神经系统并使用这个更有趣、更容易理解的目标来与之互动。

Poppy Crum: One of my favorite examples, though, is there was a period, it was right around 2018, 2020, and from 2018 to 2020, and into the pandemic where...

Poppy Crum：不过，我最喜欢的例子之一是，有一个时期，就在 2018 年、2020 年左右，从 2018 年到 2020 年，进入大流行期间……

The students, I noticed had a much more...

我注意到学生们有更多...

There were a lot of projects.

有很多项目。

Their final project they can build whatever they want.

他们的最终项目可以建造任何他们想要的东西。

And you know, they've had to do projects where they build neuro brain computer interfaces.

你知道，他们必须做一些构建神经脑计算机接口的项目。

They've had to build projects in VR.

他们必须在 VR 中构建项目。

They've had to build AR projects.

他们必须构建 AR 项目。

Poppy Crum: They've had to build projects that use any sort of input device.

Poppy Crum：他们必须构建使用任何类型输入设备的项目。

They have to use different sensor driven input devices, and that's all part of what they develop.

他们必须使用不同的传感器驱动输入设备，这就是他们开发的全部内容。

And around 2018, 2020, I started to see almost every project had a wellness component to it, which I loved.

2018 年、2020 年左右，我开始发现几乎每个项目都有健康成分，我很喜欢这一点。

Andrew Huberman: Mm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。

Poppy Crum: I thought that was...

Poppy Crum：我以为那是……

Andrew Huberman: Interesting.

安德鲁·休伯曼：有趣。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: And it was a very notable shift in like the student body, and maybe you've seen that too.

Poppy Crum：这是一个非常显着的转变，就像学生团体一样，也许你也看到了。

But I still got these, like one of my favorite games to date was this VR game where I'm in a morgue, I wake up, I've got to solve an escape room.

但我仍然拥有这些，就像迄今为止我最喜欢的游戏之一是这款 VR 游戏，我在太平间里，我醒来，我必须解决密室逃脱的问题。

I've got zombies that are coming out of me and they're climbing out of the morgue, and they're getting closer and there's people breathing down my neck and they're like, "Ah," you know, and everything.

我身上有僵尸从我体内出来，它们从太平间爬出来，它们越来越近，有人在我脖子上呼吸，他们就像，“啊，”你知道，等等。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: And it's a wellness app.

Poppy Crum：这是一款健康应用程序。

Go figure.

去算算吧。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: It was their idea of look, this is what I feel like.

Poppy Crum：这是他们对外观的想法，这就是我的感觉。

I've got to...

我必须...

Because I'm also measuring my breath and heart rate, and I've got to keep those biological signatures.

因为我还要测量我的呼吸和心率，并且我必须保留这些生物特征。

Like, everything about how the zombies in solving my escape room problems, they're going to get closer to me if my breath rate goes up, if my heart rate goes up.

就像，关于僵尸如何解决我的逃生室问题的一切，如果我的呼吸频率上升，如果我的心率上升，他们就会离我更近。

I've got to keep...

我必须保持...

Andrew Huberman: So, it was about stress control, basically.

Andrew Huberman：所以，基本上是关于压力控制。

Poppy Crum: Exactly, yes.

Poppy Crum：没错，是的。

But it was in that environment, and it was, you know, realized for them how they felt.

但正是在那种环境下，你知道，他们意识到了自己的感受。

But yeah, and you can do it in much simpler ways, but at least I'm a huge fan of how do we use the right quantification to develop the right habits, the right skills, the right acuity or resolution in a domain we might not...

但是，是的，你可以用更简单的方式做到这一点，但至少我非常喜欢我们如何使用正确的量化来培养正确的习惯、正确的技能、正确的敏锐度或分辨率，在我们可能不熟悉的领域......

Or an area where we might not be able to break it into the pieces we need, but it's going to help us get there, because my brain actually needs to now learn to understand that different, that sophistication.

或者是一个我们可能无法将其分解成我们需要的部分的领域，但它将帮助我们到达那里，因为我的大脑现在实际上需要学会理解那种不同的、那种复杂性。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, it's clear to me that in the health space giving people information that scares them is great for getting them to not do things.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：是的，我很清楚，在健康领域，向人们提供让他们害怕的信息对于让他们不做事很有帮助。

Poppy Crum: Mm-hmm.

Poppy Crum：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: But it's very difficult to scare people into doing the right things.

Andrew Huberman：但是要吓唬人们去做正确的事情是非常困难的。

You need to incentivize people to do the right things by making it engaging, and fun, and quantifiable, and I like the example of the zombie game.

你需要通过使其具有吸引力、有趣且可量化来激励人们做正确的事情，我喜欢僵尸游戏的例子。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Okay.

安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。

So, fortunately, we won't have to wear dozens of sensors.

因此，幸运的是，我们不必佩戴数十个传感器。

They'll be more integrated over time.

随着时间的推移，它们将更加一体化。

Poppy Crum: I'm happy to walk through a cheat sheet later, after...

Poppy Crum：我很高兴稍后能浏览一下备忘单，之后......

You know, for building out a computer vision app for quantifying some of these more personalized domain-related things that people might want to do, if that's useful.

你知道，构建一个计算机视觉应用程序来量化人们可能想做的一些更个性化的与领域相关的事情（如果有用的话）。

Andrew Huberman: That would be awesome.

安德鲁·休伯曼：那真是太棒了。

Yeah, and then we can post a link to it in the show note captions.

是的，然后我们可以在节目注释标题中发布指向它的链接。

Because I think that the example you gave of creating an app that can analyze swimming performance, running gait, focused work bouts, I think that's really intriguing to a lot of people.

因为我认为你给出的创建一个可以分析游泳表现、跑步步态、专注训练的应用程序的例子，我认为这对很多人来说真的很有趣。

Poppy Crum: Sounds good.

Poppy Crum：听起来不错。

Poppy Crum: Mm.

罂粟花粉：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: But I think there's a...

安德鲁·休伯曼：但我认为有一个......

At least for me, there's a gap there between hearing about it, thinking it's really cool, and how to implement.

至少对我来说，听到它、认为它真的很酷以及如何实施之间存在着差距。

So, I'd certainly appreciate it.

所以，我当然会很感激。

I know the audience would too.

我知道观众也会。

Poppy Crum: I mean, just in...

Poppy Crum：我的意思是，就在……

Andrew Huberman: And that's very generous of you.

Andrew Huberman：你真是太慷慨了。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Poppy Crum: Yes, absolutely.

Poppy Crum：是的，绝对如此。

And we're in an era where everyone...

而我们正处在一个每个人都...

All you hear about is AI and AI tools, and there are tools that absolutely accelerate our capabilities as humans.

你所听到的都是人工智能和人工智能工具，有些工具绝对可以提高我们人类的能力。

But, we gave the examples of talking about some of the LLMs.

但是，我们给出了谈论一些法学硕士的例子。

Of course, we went to Cal.

当然，我们去了加州。

I was at a film premiere, and I was sitting there.

我当时正在参加电影首映式，我就坐在那里。

I was sitting next to a few students who happened to be from Berkeley, and they said to me...

我坐在几个恰好来自伯克利的学生旁边，他们对我说……

You know, they were computer science students and double engineering.

你知道，他们是计算机科学专业的学生，也是双工科学生。

And one of them, when he knew what I talk about or care about, he's like, "You know, I'm really worried, my peer group...

其中之一，当他知道我谈论或关心什么时，他会说，“你知道，我真的很担心，我的同龄人......

Like, my peers can't start a paper without ChatGPT." And, it was a truth, but it was also a concern.

就像，如果没有 ChatGPT，我的同事就无法开始发表论文。”而且，这是事实，但也是令人担忧的。

So, they understand the implications of what's happening.

因此，他们了解正在发生的事情的含义。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: And that's on one level.

Poppy Crum：这是一个层面上的。

We're in an era of agents everywhere, and I think we said that there's...

我们正处于一个无处不在的代理时代，我想我们说过……

A number of people have said, "We'll be using AI agents for everything at work in the next five years."

许多人表示，“未来五年我们将在工作中的所有事情上使用人工智能代理。”

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: And some of those things we need to use.

Poppy Crum：其中一些我们需要使用的东西。

Agents will accelerate it...

代理商会加速...

They will accelerate capability, they will accelerate short-term revenue, but they also will diminish work first, you know, cognitive skill.

他们将提高能力，他们将增加短期收入，但他们也会首先削弱工作，你知道，认知技能。

And as a user of agents in any environment, as an owner of companies employing agents, you have to think hard about what the near-term and long-term ramifications.

作为任何环境中代理的用户，作为雇用代理的公司的所有者，您必须认真考虑近期和长期的影响。

Poppy Crum: Doesn't mean you don't use your agents in places where you need to, but without the germane cognitive load, there is a different dependence now that you have to have down the road, but also, you have to think about how do you engage with the right competence to keep your humans that are engaged with developing their cognitive skills, and their mental schemas to be able to support your systems down the road.

Poppy Crum：并不意味着你不在需要的地方使用你的代理，但如果没有相关的认知负荷，现在你必须拥有不同的依赖，而且，你必须考虑如何以正确的能力参与，以保持你的人类致力于发展他们的认知技能和他们的心理模式，以便能够支持你的系统。

Andrew Huberman: Let's talk more about digital twins.

Andrew Huberman：让我们更多地讨论数字孪生。

Poppy Crum: Sure.

罂粟克拉姆：当然。

Andrew Huberman: I don't think this concept has really landed squarely in people's minds as a specific thing.

Andrew Huberman：我认为这个概念并没有真正作为一个具体的事物直接进入人们的头脑。

I think people hear AI, they know what AI is, more or less.

我认为人们听到人工智能，他们或多或少知道人工智能是什么。

They hear about a smartphone, they obviously know what a smartphone is.

他们听说过智能手机，他们显然知道智能手机是什么。

Everyone uses one, it seems.

似乎每个人都使用一个。

But, what is a digital twin?

但是，什么是数字孪生？

I think when people hear the word twin, they think it's a twin of us.

我认为当人们听到双胞胎这个词时，他们会认为这是我们的双胞胎。

Earlier, you pointed out that's not necessarily the case.

早些时候，您指出情况不一定如此。

It can be a useful tool for some area of our life, but it's not a replica of us, correct?

它可以成为我们生活某些领域的有用工具，但它不是我们的复制品，对吗？

Poppy Crum: Not at all, in the ways that I think are most relevant.

Poppy Crum：一点也不，以我认为最相关的方式来看。

Maybe, you know, there are some side cases that think about that.

也许，你知道，有一些附带的案例会考虑到这一点。

And so, first, two things to think about.

因此，首先需要考虑两件事。

One, when I talk about digital twins to companies and such, I like to frame it on how it's being used, how...

第一，当我向公司谈论数字孪生等时，我喜欢将其描述为如何使用它，如何......

The immediacy of the data from the digital twin.

数字孪生数据的即时性。

So, let's go back 50 years.

那么，让我们回到50年前。

An example of a digital twin that we still use, air traffic controllers.

我们仍在使用的数字孪生的一个例子是空中交通管制员。

Poppy Crum: When an air traffic controller sits down and looks at a screen, they're not looking at a spreadsheet.

Poppy Crum：当空中交通管制员坐下来看着屏幕时，他们并不是在看电子表格。

They're looking at a digitization of information about physical objects that is meant to give them fast reaction times, make them understand the landscape as effectively as possible.

他们正在研究有关物理对象的信息的数字化，这旨在使他们能够快速反应，使他们尽可能有效地了解景观。

We would call that situational awareness.

我们称之为态势感知。

I've got to take in data about the environment around me, and I've got to be able to action on it as rapidly, as quickly as possible, to make the right decisions that mitigate any potential, things that are determined to be problems or risks, right?

我必须获取有关我周围环境的数据，并且我必须能够尽快、尽可能快地对其采取行动，以做出正确的决策，以减轻任何潜在的问题或风险，对吗？

Poppy Crum: And so, that's what you're trying to engage, a human system.

Poppy Crum：所以，这就是你想要参与的，一个人类系统。

The visualization of that data is important, or it doesn't have to be visualization, the interpretation of it, right?

数据的可视化很重要，或者它不一定是可视化、对数据的解释，对吗？

And it's not the raw data.

而且这不是原始数据。

It's, again, how is that data represented?

再说一遍，这些数据是如何表示的？

You want the key information in a way that the salient, most important information, in this case, about planes, is able to be acted on by that human or even autonomous system, right?

您希望以某种方式获取关键信息，使人类甚至自治系统能够对最重要的信息（在本例中为有关飞机）采取行动，对吗？

Andrew Huberman: Could you give me an example in a more typical home environment?

Andrew Huberman：您能给我举一个更典型的家庭环境的例子吗？

Poppy Crum: We're both into reefing, and I built a aqua-cultured reef in my kitchen partly because I have a child, and I wanted her to understand.

Poppy Crum：我们都喜欢养礁石，我在厨房里建了一个水产养殖礁石，部分原因是我有一个孩子，我希望她能理解。

I love it myself, so don't get that wrong.

我自己也很喜欢，所以不要误会。

It wasn't just all...

这不仅仅是所有...

But to understand sort of the fragility of the ecosystems that happen in the ocean, and things we need to worry about, care about, and all.

但要了解海洋生态系统的脆弱性，以及我们需要担心、关心的事情。

And initially, when I started, and maybe this is not something you encountered, but when you build a reef or a reef tank and do saltwater fish, a couple of things.

最初，当我开始时，也许这不是你遇到的事情，但是当你建造一个珊瑚礁或一个珊瑚缸并养咸水鱼时，有几件事。

You're doing chemical measurements by hand usually, weekly, biweekly.

您通常每周、每两周手工进行一次化学测量。

There's a whole, like, 10 different chemicals that you're measuring, and I would have my daughter doing that so that she would do the science part of it, and you're trying to...

你正在测量一整套，比如 10 种不同的化学物质，我会让我女儿这样做，这样她就会做其中的科学部分，而你正在尝试......

Poppy Crum: You know the ranges, the tolerances you have, and you're also observing this ecosystem and looking for problems.

Poppy Crum：你知道范围，你的容忍度，你也在观察这个生态系统并寻找问题。

And by the time you see a problem, you're reacting to that problem.

当您发现问题时，您就会对该问题做出反应。

And I can tell you, it was very unsuccessful.

我可以告诉你，这是非常不成功的。

I mean, there's lots of error and noise in human measurements.

我的意思是，人类测量存在很多误差和噪音。

You don't have the right resolution of measurements.

您没有正确的测量分辨率。

And by resolution, I mean, every few days is not enough to track a problem.

我所说的解决方案是指，每隔几天不足以跟踪问题。

You also have the issue of, you know, you're reactive instead of being proactive.

您还存在一个问题，您知道，您是被动的而不是主动的。

It's just, you're not sensing things that where you're...

只是，你没有感觉到你所在的地方的东西......

The point at which it's visible to you, it's probably too late to do anything about it.

当您看到它时，可能已经太晚了，无法采取任何措施。

Poppy Crum: So, if you look at my fish tank right now, or my reef tank right now, I have a number of digital sensors in it.

Poppy Crum：所以，如果你现在看看我的鱼缸，或者我现在的珊瑚缸，我里面有很多数字传感器。

I have dashboards.

我有仪表板。

I can track a huge chemical assay that is tracked in real time, so that I can go back and look at the data.

我可以跟踪实时跟踪的大量化学测定，以便我可以返回并查看数据。

I can understand, I can see, oh, there was a water change there, or oh, the RO/DI tank...

我能理解，我能看到，哦，那里换水了，或者哦，RO/DI 水箱……

I can tell what's happening by looking at the data.

我可以通过查看数据来判断发生了什么。

Poppy Crum: And you know this, you've got the spectrum of your lights is on a cycle of effect that's representative of the environment that the corals you're aqua-culturing would...

Poppy Crum：你知道这一点，你的灯光光谱处于一个效果循环中，代表了你水产养殖的珊瑚会......

You know, that their systems, their deterministic systems are looking for, right?

你知道，他们的系统，他们的确定性系统正在寻找，对吧？

And so, you've built this ecosystem that when I look at my dashboards, I have a digital twin of that system.

因此，您已经构建了这个生态系统，当我查看仪表板时，我就有了该系统的数字孪生。

And my tank is very stable.

而且我的坦克非常稳定。

My tank knows what's wrong, what's happening.

我的坦克知道出了什么问题，发生了什么。

I can look at the data and understand that an event happened somewhere that could have been mitigated, or I can understand that something's wrong quickly before it even shows up.

我可以查看数据并了解某个事件发生在本来可以缓解的地方，或者我可以在问题出现之前很快就了解到问题。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

It's amazing.

太棒了。

I mean, I think for people who aren't into reefing, they might ask, like, I know people that are...

我的意思是，我认为对于那些不喜欢珊瑚礁的人来说，他们可能会问，比如，我知道有人......

I know multiple people in my life are soon to have kids, most everybody nowadays has a camera on the sleeping environment of their kids, so that if their kid wakes up in the middle of the night, they can see it, they can hear it.

我知道我生命中的很多人很快就要生孩子了，现在大多数人都在孩子的睡眠环境上安装了摄像头，这样如果他们的孩子在半夜醒来，他们就能看到、听到。

Poppy Crum: Yes.

罂粟花粉：是的。

Andrew Huberman: So, camera and microphone.

安德鲁·休伯曼：那么，相机和麦克风。

Do you think we either have now or soon will have AI tools that will help us better understand the health status of infants?

您认为我们现在或很快就会有人工智能工具来帮助我们更好地了解婴儿的健康状况吗？

Like, parents learn intuitively over time based on diaper changes, based on all sorts of things, cries, frequency of illnesses, et cetera, in their kids, how well their kids are doing before kids can communicate that.

就像，随着时间的推移，父母会根据孩子的尿布更换、孩子的各种事情、哭声、疾病频率等直观地了解孩子的表现，然后孩子才能传达这些信息。

Do you think AI can help parents be better parents by giving real-time feedback on the health information of their kids?

您认为人工智能可以通过实时反馈孩子的健康信息来帮助父母成为更好的父母吗？

Andrew Huberman: Not just if they're awake or asleep or if they're in some sort of trouble, but really help us adjust our care of our young?

安德鲁·胡伯曼：不仅仅是他们醒着或睡着或者遇到某种麻烦，而是真的帮助我们调整对孩子的照顾？

What's more important for our species than supporting the growth of our next generation?

对于我们这个物种来说，还有什么比支持下一代的成长更重要的呢？

Poppy Crum: No, absolutely.

Poppy Crum：不，绝对不。

But I'd even...

但我什至愿意...

More on the biological side.

更多的是生物学方面的。

So, think about digital twins.

因此，考虑一下数字孪生。

And I'll get to babies in a moment, but if you've ever bought a plane ticket, which any of us have today, that's a very sophisticated digital twin.

我稍后会谈到婴儿，但如果你曾经购买过我们今天拥有的机票，那就是一个非常复杂的数字双胞胎。

Not the air traffic controllers looking at planes, but the pricing models for what data is going into driving that price in real time, right?

不是空中交通管制员查看飞机，而是实时驱动价格的数据的定价模型，对吗？

Poppy Crum: You might be trying to buy a ticket, and you go back an hour later or half hour later, and it's like double or maybe it's gone up in...

Poppy Crum：你可能想买票，一个小时或半小时后回去，票价好像是双倍的，或者可能涨价了……

And that's because it's using constant data from environments, from things happening in the world, from geopolitical issues, from things happening in the...

这是因为它使用来自环境、世界上发生的事情、地缘政治问题、世界上发生的事情的持续数据。

That's driving that price.

这推动了这个价格。

And that is very much an AI-driven digital twin that's driving the sort of value of that ticket.

这在很大程度上是人工智能驱动的数字孪生，推动了这张票的价值。

Poppy Crum: And so, there are places where we use digital twins.

Poppy Crum：因此，我们在某些地方使用数字孪生。

So, that would be sort of the example of something that's affecting our lives, but we don't think about it as a digital twin, but it is a digital twin.

所以，这就是影响我们生活的例子，但我们并不认为它是数字孪生，但它确实是数字孪生。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: And then you think about a different example where you've got a whole sandbox model.

Poppy Crum：然后你会想到一个不同的例子，其中你有一个完整的沙盒模型。

The NFL might have a digital twin of every player that's in the NFL, right?

NFL 可能拥有 NFL 每位球员的数字双胞胎，对吧？

They know the data.

他们知道数据。

They're tracking that information.

他们正在追踪这些信息。

They know how people are going to perform many times.

他们多次知道人们会如何表现。

What do they care about?

他们关心什么？

They want to anticipate if someone might be at high risk for an injury, so that they can mitigate it, or...

他们想要预测某人是否有受伤的高风险，以便他们可以减轻伤害，或者......

Andrew Huberman: They're using those kind of data?

Andrew Huberman：他们正在使用这类数据？

Poppy Crum: Absolutely, yeah.

Poppy Crum：当然，是的。

Andrew Huberman: Interesting.

安德鲁·休伯曼：有趣。

I think the word twin is the misleading part.

我认为“双胞胎”这个词是有误导性的。

I feel like digital twin, I feel like soon that nomenclature needs to be replaced, because people hear twin, they think a duplicate of yourself.

我觉得就像数字孪生，我觉得很快就需要更换术语，因为人们听到孪生，他们认为是你自己的复制品。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Poppy Crum: Yes.

罂粟花粉：是的。

Andrew Huberman: I feel like these are...

安德鲁·休伯曼：我觉得这些是......

Poppy Crum: Well, it's a duplicate of relevant data and information about yourself, but not just trying to...

Poppy Crum：嗯，这是有关您自己的相关数据和信息的副本，但不仅仅是试图......

What's the purpose in emulating myself?

模仿自己的目的是什么？

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: It's to emulate key...

Poppy Crum：这是为了模仿钥匙......

So, imagine me as a physical system.

所以，把我想象成一个物理系统。

I'm going to digitize some of that data, right?

我要把其中一些数据数字化，对吧？

And whatever data I have, it's how that data, I interact with it to make intelligent insights and feedback loops in the digital environment, about how that physical system is going to behave, right?

无论我拥有什么数据，这就是我如何与数据交互，以在数字环境中做出智能洞察和反馈循环，了解物理系统将如何表现，对吗？

Andrew Huberman: Okay, so it's a digital representative more than a digital twin.

Andrew Huberman：好的，它是一个数字代表，而不是数字孪生。

Poppy Crum: Yes.

罂粟花粉：是的。

Poppy Crum: Yes.

罂粟花粉：是的。

Andrew Huberman: I think...

安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为……

I'm not trying to split it.

我并不是想把它分开。

Poppy Crum: There are many digital twins in any digital twin.

Poppy Crum：任何数字孪生中都有许多数字孪生。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

Poppy Crum: So like, even you've got data, you live with lots of digital...

Poppy Crum：所以，即使你有数据，你也生活在大量的数字......

I think the world would...

我想世界会...

The digital twin, whatever nomenclature would say is a digital twin, but I like a digital representative.

数字孪生，无论用什么术语来说都是数字孪生，但我喜欢数字代表。

Poppy Crum: And it's informing some aspect of decision-making, and it's many feedback.

Poppy Crum：它为决策的某些方面提供信息，并且有很多反馈。

So, I'm digitizing different things.

所以，我正在将不同的东西数字化。

And in that situational awareness model, like, just can I give a quick example?

在态势感知模型中，我可以举一个简单的例子吗？

So, imagine, so I can digitize an environment, right?

那么，想象一下，我可以将环境数字化，对吗？

Poppy Crum: I can digitize or let the space we're in right now.

Poppy Crum：我可以数字化或出租我们现在所处的空间。

And would that be a digital twin?

那会是数字孪生吗？

So, first, in situational awareness, there's the state of, okay, so what's the sort of sensor limitations, the acuity of the data I've actually brought in?

所以，首先，在态势感知方面，存在这样的状态，好吧，那么传感器的限制是什么，我实际引入的数据的敏锐度是什么？

Okay?

好的？

So, that's like perception, and same with our sensory systems.

所以，这就像感知，与我们的感觉系统相同。

And then there's comprehension.

然后是理解。

So, comprehension would be like, okay, that's a table.

所以，理解就像，好吧，那是一张桌子。

That's a chair.

那是一把椅子。

That's a person.

那是一个人。

Poppy Crum: Now, I'm in those sort of semantic units of relevance that the digitization takes.

Poppy Crum：现在，我处于数字化所采用的相关语义单元中。

Then there's the insight.

然后是洞察力。

So, what's happening in that environment?

那么，在那个环境中发生了什么？

What do I do with that?

我该怎么办？

And that's where things get interesting, and that's where a lot of...

这就是事情变得有趣的地方，这就是很多......

I think the future of AI products is, because then it's the feedback loops of what's happening with that input and that data.

我认为人工智能产品的未来是，因为那时它是输入和数据所发生情况的反馈循环。

And it becomes interesting and important when you start having multiple layers of relevant data that are interacting, that can give you the right insights about what's happening, what to anticipate in that space.

当您开始拥有交互的多层相关数据时，它会变得有趣且重要，这可以为您提供有关该领域正在发生的事情以及预期的内容的正确见解。

But that's all about our situational awareness and intelligence in that environment.

但这就是我们在该环境中的态势感知和情报。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

I can see where these technologies could take us.

我可以看到这些技术可以带我们去往何处。

I think for the general public right now, AI is super scary because we hear most about AI developing its own forms of intelligence that turn on us.

我认为对于现在的普通公众来说，人工智能是非常可怕的，因为我们听到最多的是人工智能正在开发自己的智能形式，而这些智能形式会激怒我们。

Poppy Crum: Mm-hmm.

Poppy Crum：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: I think people are gradually getting on board the idea that AI can be very useful.

Andrew Huberman：我认为人们正在逐渐接受人工智能非常有用的想法。

We have digital representatives already out there for us in these different domains.

我们在这些不同领域已经有数字代表。

Poppy Crum: Yes, absolutely.

Poppy Crum：是的，绝对如此。

Andrew Huberman: I think being able to customize them for our unique challenges and our unique goals is really what's most exciting to me.

Andrew Huberman：我认为能够针对我们独特的挑战和我们独特的目标定制它们对我来说确实是最令人兴奋的。

Poppy Crum: I love that, because I think what I was trying to say is exactly what you said.

Poppy Crum：我喜欢这个，因为我认为我想说的正是你所说的。

Look, they are out there and these are effectively digital twins.

看，它们就在那里，它们实际上是数字孪生。

Every company that's...

每个公司都是...

You're interacting with social media has effectively a digital twin of you in some place.

你与社交媒体的互动实际上是你在某个地方的数字孪生。

It's not to emulate your body, but it's to emulate your behaviors in those spaces, or you're using tools that have digital twins for things you do in your daily life.

它不是模仿你的身体，而是模仿你在这些空间中的行为，或者你正在使用具有数字孪生的工具来处理你在日常生活中所做的事情。

So, the question is, how do we harness that for our success, for individual success, for understanding an agency of what that can mean for you?

所以，问题是，我们如何利用这一点来实现我们的成功、个人的成功，以及了解代理机构的这对您意味着什么？

Poppy Crum: If the NFL is using it for a player, you can use it as an athlete, meaning as an athlete at any level, right?

Poppy Crum：如果 NFL 将其用于球员，那么您也可以将其用作运动员，意味着任何级别的运动员，对吧？

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: And it's that digitization of information that can feed you.

Poppy Crum：信息的数字化可以为你提供食物。

For my baby, you can better understand a great deal about how they're successful or what isn't successful about them.

对于我的宝宝，您可以更好地了解他们如何成功或不成功。

And not...

而且不...

Your baby's always successful.

你的宝宝总是成功的。

I don't want to say, but what is maybe not working well for them.

我不想说，但可能对他们来说不太好。

The things that...

那些事...

But I would tend to say, the exciting places about digital twins come in really once you start integrating the data from different places that tell us about the success of our systems, and those are anchored with actual successes, right?

但我想说，一旦你开始整合来自不同地方的数据，这些数据告诉我们我们的系统是否成功，并且这些数据都以实际的成功为基础，那么数字孪生的令人兴奋的地方就真的出现了，对吗？

I think you used an example of your mattress and sleep, and one I liked was I had three good, very focused work sessions.

我想你举了一个关于你的床垫和睡眠的例子，我喜欢的一个例子是我进行了三场很好的、非常专注的工作。

Poppy Crum: You may have used different words, Andy, but the idea is, okay, you've had those, but it's when you can correlate it with other systems and other outputs that it becomes powerful.

Poppy Crum：安迪，你可能使用了不同的词语，但我们的想法是，好吧，你已经有了这些，但只有当你可以将它与其他系统和其他输出关联起来时，它才会变得强大。

That's the way a digital representative or a digital twin becomes more useful, is thinking about not the resolution of the data, where the data source, where the data's coming from, meaning whether is it biometric data, is it environmental data?

这就是数字代表或数字孪生变得更有用的方式，而不是考虑数据的分辨率，数据源在哪里，数据来自哪里，意味着是否是生物识别数据，是否是环境数据？

Poppy Crum: Is it the context of the state of what else was happening during those work sessions, and how is that something that I don't have to think about, but AI can help me understand where I'm successful and what else drove that success or what drove that state?

Poppy Crum：这是否是这些工作会议期间发生的其他事情的背景？我不必考虑这一点，但人工智能可以帮助我了解我在哪里取得了成功，以及还有哪些因素推动了这种成功或推动了这种状态？

Because it's not just my success, it's intelligence.

因为这不仅仅是我的成功，更是我的智慧。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: I like to call it situational intelligence, as sort of the overarching goal that we want to have, and that involves my body and systems having situational awareness, but it's really, you know, a lot of integration of data that AI is very powerful for thinking about how does it optimize and give us the insights.

Poppy Crum：我喜欢将其称为情境智能，作为我们想要实现的总体目标，这涉及我的身体和系统具有情境意识，但实际上，你知道，人工智能非常强大，可以思考如何优化并为我们提供见解。

It doesn't have to just have systems behave, but it can give us the insights of how effectively we can act in those environments.

它不必只是让系统表现出来，但它可以让我们了解我们在这些环境中如何有效地采取行动。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

I think of AI as being able to see what we can't see.

我认为人工智能能够看到我们看不到的东西。

Poppy Crum: Yes.

罂粟花粉：是的。

Andrew Huberman: So, for instance, if I had some sort of AI representative that paid attention to my work environment and to my ability to focus as I'm trying to do focused work, and it turned out...

Andrew Huberman：所以，举例来说，如果我有某种人工智能代表关注我的工作环境以及我在尝试专注工作时的专注能力，结果......

Obviously, I'm making this up, but it turned out that every time my air conditioner clicked over to silent or back to on, that it would break my focus for the next 10 minutes.

显然，这是我编造的，但事实证明，每次我的空调切换到静音或重新打开时，我的注意力都会在接下来的 10 分钟内分散。

Poppy Crum: Mm-hmm.

Poppy Crum：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: Yes.

罂粟花粉：是的。

Andrew Huberman: And I wasn't aware of that.

Andrew Huberman：我不知道这一点。

And by the way, for people listening, this is entirely plausible because so many of our states of mind are triggered by cues that we're just fundamentally unaware of.

顺便说一句，对于倾听的人来说，这是完全合理的，因为我们的许多心态都是由我们根本没有意识到的线索触发的。

Poppy Crum: Mm-hmm.

Poppy Crum：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Or that it's always at the 35-minute mark that my eyes start to have to re-read words or lines, because somehow my attention is drifting, or that it's paragraphs of longer than a certain length.

Andrew Huberman：或者总是在 35 分钟的时候我的眼睛开始不得不重新阅读单词或台词，因为不知何故我的注意力在漂移，或者它的段落长度超过了一定的长度。

It's a near infinite space for us to explore on our own, but for AI to explore it, it's straightforward.

对于我们自己来说，这是一个近乎无限的空间，但对于人工智能来说，探索它却很简单。

Poppy Crum: Right.

罂粟花粉：对。

Poppy Crum: Right.

罂粟花粉：对。

Andrew Huberman: And so, it can see through our cognitive blind spots, and our functional blind spots.

Andrew Huberman：因此，它可以看穿我们的认知盲点和功能盲点。

And I think of where people pay a lot of money right now to get information, to get around their blind spots are things like, when you have a pain, and you don't know what it is, you go to this thing called the doctor.

我想到人们现在花很多钱来获取信息，绕过他们的盲点，比如，当你感到疼痛，而你不知道那是什么时，你就会去看医生。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Or when you have a problem and you don't know how to sort it out, you might talk to a therapist, right?

Andrew Huberman：或者当你遇到问题并且不知道如何解决时，你可能会去找治疗师，对吗？

People pay a lot of money for that.

人们为此付出了很多钱。

I'm not saying AI should replace all of that, but I do think AI can see things that we can't see.

我并不是说人工智能应该取代所有这些，但我确实认为人工智能可以看到我们看不到的东西。

Poppy Crum: Two examples to your point, which I love.

Poppy Crum：有两个例子可以说明你的观点，我很喜欢。

The reading, potentially, there's a point at which you're experiencing fatigue and you want to...

阅读时，可能会在某个时刻您感到疲劳，并且想要……

Ideally, much like the fish tank, you want to be not reactive, you want to be proactive.

理想情况下，就像鱼缸一样，你不想被动，你想要主动。

You want to mitigate it, stop, or you could have...

你想减轻它，停止，或者你可以......

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: Your devices can have that integration of data, and respond to give you feedback when either your mental acuity, your vigilance, or your just effectiveness has waned, right?

Poppy Crum：您的设备可以整合数据，并在您的精神敏锐度、警惕性或公正有效性减弱时做出响应并提供反馈，对吗？

But also, on the level of health, we know AI is huge for identifying a lot of different pathologies out of data that as humans we're just not that good at discerning.

而且，在健康层面上，我们知道人工智能对于从数据中识别许多不同的疾病有着巨大的作用，而作为人类，我们只是不擅长辨别。

You know, our voice.

你知道，我们的声音。

In the last 10 years, we've become much more aware of the different pathologies that can be discerned from AI assessments of our speech and not what we say, but how we say it.

在过去的十年里，我们越来越意识到人工智能对我们言论的评估可以识别出不同的病态，而不是我们所说的内容，而是我们说话的方式。

Right?

正确的？

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

There's a lab up at University of Washington, I think it's Sam Golden's lab, working on some really impressive algorithms to analyze speech patterns as a way to predict suicidality.

华盛顿大学有一个实验室，我认为是 Sam Golden 的实验室，正在研究一些非常令人印象深刻的算法来分析语音模式，以此作为预测自杀的一种方法。

Poppy Crum: Oh, interesting.

Poppy Crum：哦，有趣。

Andrew Huberman: And to great success.

Andrew Huberman：并且取得了巨大的成功。

Where people don't realize that they're drifting in that direction.

人们没有意识到他们正朝着那个方向漂移。

Poppy Crum: Mm-hmm.

Poppy Crum：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: And phones can potentially warn people.

Andrew Huberman：手机可能会警告人们。

Poppy Crum: Yes.

罂粟花粉：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Warn themselves, right, that they're drifting in a particular direction.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：警告自己，对吧，他们正在朝着特定的方向漂移。

People who have cycles of depression or mania can know whether or not they're drifting into that.

患有抑郁症或躁狂症的人可以知道自己是否正在陷入这种状态。

It can be extremely useful.

它非常有用。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: They can discern who else gets that information.

Andrew Huberman：他们可以辨别还有谁获得了该信息。

And it's all based on tonality at different times of day.

这一切都基于一天中不同时间的音调。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Stuff that even in a close relationship with a therapist over many years, they might not be able to detect, if the person becomes reclusive or something of that sort.

安德鲁·休伯曼：即使与治疗师保持多年的密切关系，他们也可能无法察觉，如果这个人变得隐居或类似的事情。

Poppy Crum: Absolutely.

罂粟花：当然。

Neural degeneration, it shows up and, short assessment of how people speak, they've definitely been able to show potential likelihood of psychosis.

神经退化，它出现了，并且，对人们如何说话的简短评估，他们肯定能够表现出精神病的潜在可能性。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: And that's with syntactic completion and how people read paragraphs.

Poppy Crum：这就是句法补全以及人们阅读段落的方式。

Neural degeneration though, things like Alzheimer's, show up in speech because of the linguistic cues control but, sometimes 10 years before a typical clinical symptom would show up that would be identified.

然而，像阿尔茨海默氏症这样的神经退行性疾病，由于语言线索的控制，会出现在言语中，但有时会在典型的临床症状出现之前 10 年才能被识别出来。

And what I think is important for people to realize is it's not someone saying, "I don't remember." It's nothing like that.

我认为重要的是人们要认识到，并不是有人说“我不记得了”。根本不是那样的。

It's not those cues that you think are actually relevant.

您认为真正相关的并不是那些线索。

It's more like an individual says something, something like that, what I just did, which was I purposely stuttered.

更像是一个人说了些什么，类似这样的话，我刚才做了什么，这是我故意结巴的。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: I started a word again, right?

Poppy Crum：我又开始说话了，对吧？

And it's what we might call a stutter in how we're speaking, sometimes duration of spaces between starting one sentence to the next.

这就是我们所说的说话时的口吃，有时是从一个句子开始到下一个句子之间的间隔时间。

These are things that as humans we've adapted to not pick up on because it makes us ineffective in communication or...

作为人类，我们已经习惯了不去理会这些事情，因为它使我们的沟通效率低下，或者……

But an algorithm can do so very well.

但算法可以很好地做到这一点。

Diabetes, heart disease, both show up in voice.

糖尿病、心脏病，都会通过声音表现出来。

Poppy Crum: Diabetes shows up because you can pick up on dehydration in the voice.

Poppy Crum：糖尿病的出现是因为你可以从声音中发现脱水的情况。

Again, I'm a sound person in my heart and my past, and if you look at the spectrum of sound, you're going to see changes that show up, there are very consistent things in a voice that show up with dehydration in the spectral salience.

再说一遍，我的内心和过去都是一个健全的人，如果你观察声音的频谱，你会看到出现的变化，声音中存在非常一致的东西，这些东西在频谱显着性中表现出脱水。

As well as with heart disease, you get sort of flutter that shows up.

与心脏病一样，您也会出现心悸。

It's a proxy for things happening inside your body, you know, with problems, cardiovascular issues.

它代表了你体内发生的事情，比如心血管问题。

But you're going to see them as certain, like, modulatory fluctuations in certain frequency bands.

但你会看到它们是确定的，比如某些频段的调制波动。

And again, we don't walk around as a partner or a spouse or a child care-taking our parents and listening for like, the four kilohertz modulation, but an algorithm can.

再说一次，我们不会像伴侣、配偶或孩子那样四处走动，照顾我们的父母，聆听四千赫兹的调制，但算法可以。

Poppy Crum: And all of these are places where you can identify something that is potentially...

Poppy Crum：所有这些都是你可以识别出潜在的东西的地方......

Mitigate something proactively before there's a problem.

在出现问题之前主动缓解问题。

And especially with neural degeneration, we're really just getting to a place where there's pharmacological opportunities to slow something down, and you want to find that as quick as possible.

尤其是对于神经退行性变，我们实际上正处于一个有药物机会减缓某些事情的阶段，而你希望尽快找到它。

So, you want to have that input so that you can do something about it.

因此，您希望获得该输入，以便您可以采取一些措施。

Poppy Crum: You asked me about the babies, like, the type of coughs we have tell us a lot about different pathologies.

Poppy Crum：你问了我关于婴儿的情况，比如我们咳嗽的类型，这告诉了我们很多关于不同疾病的信息。

So, for a baby, their cry, if I'm thinking...

所以，对于一个婴儿来说，他们的哭声，如果我在想……

You asked me about a digital twin, where would I be most interested in using that information if I had children or...

您问我有关数字孪生的问题，如果我有孩子或……，我最有兴趣在哪里使用这些信息？

I mean, I do have a child.

我的意思是，我确实有一个孩子。

But in the sort of lowest touch, most opportunity, it's to identify potential pathologies or issues early based on the natural sounds and the natural utterances that are happening to understand if there is something that, you know, there's a way it could be helped, you could proactively make something much better.

但在最低接触、最多机会的情况下，它是根据正在发生的自然声音和自然话语来尽早识别潜在的病症或问题，以了解是否有什么事情可以帮助，你可以主动把事情做得更好。

Andrew Huberman: Let's talk about you.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我们来谈谈你吧。

Poppy Crum: Oh, boy.

Poppy Crum：噢，孩子。

Andrew Huberman: And how you got into all of this stuff, because you're highly unusual in the neuroscience space.

Andrew Huberman：以及你是如何进入所有这些领域的，因为你在神经科学领域非常不寻常。

I recall when we were graduate students, when you were working on auditory perception and physiology, and then years later, now you're involved with AI, neuroplasticity, you were at Dolby.

我记得当我们还是研究生时，当你研究听觉感知和生理学时，几年后，现在你涉足人工智能、神经可塑性，你在杜比。

What is, to you, the most interesting question that's driving all of this?

对您来说，推动这一切的最有趣的问题是什么？

What guides your choices about what to work on?

是什么指导你选择做什么工作？

Poppy Crum: Human technology intersection and perception is my core, right?

Poppy Crum：人类技术的交集和感知是我的核心，对吧？

I say perception, but the world is data, and how our brains take in the data that we consume to optimize how we experience the world is what I care about across all of what I've spent my time doing.

我说的是感知，但世界就是数据，我们的大脑如何吸收我们消耗的数据来优化我们体验世界的方式，这是我花时间做的所有事情中所关心的。

And for me, technology is such a huge part of that.

对我来说，技术是其中非常重要的一部分。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: That it is...

Poppy Crum：那是……

I like to innovate, I like to build things, but I also like to think about, how do we improve human performance?

我喜欢创新，喜欢建造东西，但我也喜欢思考，我们如何提高人类绩效？

Core to improving human performance is understanding how we're different, not just how we're similar, but, you know, the nuances of how our brains are shaped and how they're influenced, and thus why I care...

提高人类表现的核心是了解我们的不同之处，而不仅仅是我们的相似之处，而且，你知道，我们的大脑如何形成以及它们如何受到影响的细微差别，这就是为什么我关心......

I've spent so much time in neuroplasticity, and it is at the intersection of everything.

我在神经可塑性上花了很多时间，它处于一切的交叉点。

It's how are we changing and how do we harness that?

问题在于我们如何改变以及我们如何利用它？

Poppy Crum: How do we make it something that we have agency over, whether it's from the technologies we build and we innovate, to the point of, I want to feel better, I want to be successful, I don't want that to be something left to surprise me, right?

Poppy Crum：我们如何让它成为我们拥有代理权的东西，无论是我们构建和创新的技术，还是我想要感觉更好，我想要成功，我不希望这成为让我感到惊讶的东西，对吧？

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: So, you asked me, how did I get there?

Poppy Crum：所以，你问我，我是怎么到达那里的？

One thing that...

有一件事是...

So, I was a violinist back in the day.

所以，我当时是一名小提琴手。

I'm still a violinist and music is a part of my life, but I was studying Music and Engineering when I was an undergrad.

我仍然是一名小提琴手，音乐是我生活的一部分，但我在本科时学习了音乐和工程。

And I think we alluded to the fact I have absolute pitch, and absolute pitch is, for anyone that doesn't know, it's not anything that means I always sing in tune.

我想我们提到了我有绝对音高这一事实，对于任何不知道的人来说，绝对音高并不意味着我总是唱得准。

Poppy Crum: What it means is, I hear the world like...

Poppy Crum：这意味着，我听到这个世界就像......

I hear sound like people see color.

我听到的声音就像人们看到颜色一样。

Okay.

好的。

And I can't turn it off, really.

我真的无法将其关闭。

I can kind of push it back.

我可以把它推回来。

Andrew Huberman: Wait, sorry, don't we all hear sound like we see...

Andrew Huberman：等等，抱歉，我们听到的声音难道不像我们看到的那样吗？

I mean, I hear sounds, and I see colors.

我的意思是，我听到声音，看到颜色。

Could you clarify what you mean?

你能澄清一下你的意思吗？

Poppy Crum: Okay, so when you walk down the street, your brain is going, "Oh, that's red, that's black, that's blue, that's green." My brain's going, "That's an A, that's a B, that's a G, that's an F," right?

Poppy Crum：好吧，当你走在街上时，你的大脑会说，“哦，那是红色，那是黑色，那是蓝色，那是绿色。”我的大脑会想，“那是 A，那是 B，那是 G，那是 F，”对吧？

Andrew Huberman: I see.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我明白了。

You're categorizing.

你在分类。

Poppy Crum: There's a categorical perception about it, and because of the nature of I think my exposure to sound in my life, I also know what frequency it is, right?

Poppy Crum：对此有一个明确的看法，并且由于我认为我在生活中接触声音的性质，我也知道它的频率是什么，对吧？

So, I can say that's 350 hertz, or that's 400 hertz, or that's 442 hertz, and it has different applications.

所以，我可以说这是 350 赫兹，或者是 400 赫兹，或者是 442 赫兹，它有不同的应用。

I mean, I can transcribe a jazz solo when I listen to it.

我的意思是，当我听爵士乐独奏时，我可以转录它。

That's a great party trick.

这是一个很棒的派对技巧。

But it doesn't mean that...

但这并不意味着...

It's not necessarily a good thing for a musician, right?

对于音乐家来说这不一定是一件好事，对吧？

Poppy Crum: You know, as well as I do that categorical perception is we all have different forms of it, usually for speech and language, like units of vowels or phonetic units, especially vowels, that you can hear many different versions of an E and still hear it as an E.

Poppy Crum：你知道，和我一样，分类感知是我们都有不同的形式，通常对于语音和语言来说，比如元音单位或语音单位，尤其是元音，你可以听到 E 的许多不同版本，但仍然听到它是 E。

And that's what we would call categorical perception.

这就是我们所说的绝对感知。

And my brain does the same thing for a set of frequencies, to hear it as an A.

我的大脑对一组频率做了同样的事情，把它听成 A。

Poppy Crum: And that can be good at times.

Poppy Crum：有时这可能是件好事。

But when you're actually a musician, there's a lot more subtlety that goes into how you play with other people, and what key you're in, or the details.

但当你实际上是一名音乐家时，你如何与其他人一起演奏、你所处的调或细节有很多微妙之处。

Like, if you ask me to sing "Happy Birthday," I'm always going to sing it in the key of G if I am left to my own devices, and I will get you there somehow if we start somewhere else.

就像，如果你让我唱“生日快乐”，如果我自己听，我总是会用 G 调唱，如果我们从其他地方开始，我会以某种方式让你到达那里。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: So, what happened to me when I was in music school, when I was in conservatory and also engineering school is I was taking...

Poppy Crum：所以，当我在音乐学校、音乐学院和工程学校时，我发生了什么事……

Two things happened.

发生了两件事。

I knew that I had to override my brain, because it was not allowing me the subtlety I wanted to play my Shostakovich or play my chamber music in the ways that were...

我知道我必须超越我的大脑，因为它不允许我以微妙的方式演奏我的肖斯塔科维奇或演奏我的室内乐......

I was having to work too hard to override these sort of categories of sounds I was hearing.

我必须非常努力地工作才能忽略我听到的这些声音类别。

Poppy Crum: So, I started playing early music, Baroque music.

Poppy Crum：所以，我开始演奏早期音乐，巴洛克音乐。

For anyone, I think I said earlier, A is a social construct.

对于任何人来说，我想我之前说过，A 是一种社会建构。

Today, typically, as a set, as a standard, A is 440 hertz.

如今，通常作为一组、作为标准，A 为 440 赫兹。

If you go back to the 1700s, A was 415 hertz in the Baroque era.

如果你回到 1700 年代，巴洛克时代的 A 是 415 赫兹。

And 415 hertz is effectively a G sharp.

415 赫兹实际上是升 G 音。

So, it's the difference between "ah" and "ah." Okay?

所以，这就是“啊”和“啊”之间的区别。好的？

Poppy Crum: And what would happen to me when I was trying to override this is I was playing in an early music ensemble, and I would tune my violin up, and I would see A on the page, and I'd hear G sharp in my brain.

Poppy Crum：当我试图克服这一点时，会发生在我身上的事情是，我正在一个早期的音乐合奏团中演奏，我会调好我的小提琴，我会在页面上看到 A，我会在我的大脑中听到 G 升音。

And it was completely...

而且这完全是...

I was terrible.

我很糟糕。

I was, like, always...

我曾经，就像，总是……

It was really hard for my brain to override.

我的大脑真的很难克服。

Poppy Crum: And I mean, brass and wind players do this all the time.

Poppy Crum：我的意思是，铜管乐器和管乐器演奏者一直这样做。

It's like transposition, and they modulate to the key that they're in, and they...

这就像变调，他们调制到他们所在的调，他们......

Their brains have evolved through their training in neuroplasticity to be able to not have the same sort of experience I had.

他们的大脑通过神经可塑性训练而进化，无法拥有与我相同的经历。

Poppy Crum: Anyhow, long story long, I was also taking a neuroscience course.

Poppy Crum：总之，长话短说，我还参加了神经科学课程。

In this neuroscience course, we were reading papers about sort of different map-making and neuroplasticity.

在这门神经科学课程中，我们正在阅读有关不同的地图制作和神经可塑性的论文。

And I read this paper by a professor at Stanford named Eric Knudsen.

我读到了斯坦福大学教授埃里克·克努森 (Eric Knudsen) 的这篇论文。

And Eric Knudsen did these amazing...

埃里克·克努森做了这些令人惊奇的事情......

Well, he did a lot of seminal work for how we understand the auditory pathways, as well as how we form multi-sensory objects, and the way the brain integrates cells' data across our modalities, meaning sight and sound.

嗯，他为我们如何理解听觉通路、我们如何形成多感官物体，以及大脑如何整合我们的模式（即视觉和声音）中的细胞数据的方式做了很多开创性的工作。

Poppy Crum: But, in this paper, what he was doing was he had identified cells in the brain that optimally responded, their receptive fields, you know, receptive field being that sort of in all of that giant data set of the world, it's the set of data that optimally causes that cell to respond.

Poppy Crum：但是，在这篇论文中，他所做的是确定了大脑中做出最佳反应的细胞，它们的感受野，你知道，感受野就是世界上所有巨大数据集中的那种，它是导致细胞做出最佳反应的数据集。

Poppy Crum: And for these cells, they cared about a particular location in auditory and visual space, which, frankly, for mammals, we don't have the same sort of cells because we can move our eyes back and forth in our sockets, unlike owls, and he studied owls.

Poppy Crum：对于这些细胞来说，它们关心的是听觉和视觉空间中的特定位置，坦率地说，对于哺乳动物来说，我们没有相同类型的细胞，因为我们可以在眼窝中来回移动眼睛，这与猫头鹰不同，他研究了猫头鹰。

And owls have a very hard-wired map of auditory-visual space.

猫头鹰有一个非常硬连线的听觉-视觉空间地图。

Andrew Huberman: On the other hand, if I hear a click off to my right, I turn my head to the right.

Andrew Huberman：另一方面，如果我听到右侧发出咔哒声，我就会将头转向右侧。

Poppy Crum: You turn your head, it triggers a different vestibular ocular response that moves, yeah, all of that, yes.

Poppy Crum：你转动头部，它会触发不同的前庭眼部反应，移动，是的，所有这些，是的。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: But in this case, he had these beautiful hard-wired maps of auditory-visual space, and then he would rear and raise these owls with prism glasses, that effectively shifted their visual system by 15-degrees.

Poppy Crum：但在这种情况下，他拥有这些美丽的听觉-视觉空间硬连线地图，然后他会用棱镜眼镜饲养和饲养这些猫头鹰，这有效地将它们的视觉系统改变了 15 度。

Poppy Crum: And then, he would put them, key to developing neuroplasticity, he would put them in high, important...

Poppy Crum：然后，他会把它们放在发展神经可塑性的关键位置，他会把它们放在高度、重要的位置……

High, not stress, but let's say, situations where they had to do something critical to their survival or their well-being, and so they would hunt, and they would feed and do things like that with this 15-degree shift.

高，不是压力，而是说，在这种情况下，他们必须做一些对他们的生存或福祉至关重要的事情，所以他们会狩猎，他们会在这个 15 度的转变下进食和做类似的事情。

Poppy Crum: And consequently, he saw the cells, the auditory neurons, he saw their dendrites realign to the now 15-degree visually shifted cells.

Poppy Crum：因此，他看到了细胞、听觉神经元，他看到它们的树突与现在视觉上发生 15 度偏移的细胞重新对齐。

And it was this realization that they developed a secondary map that was now aligned with the 15-degree shift of the prism glasses, as well as their original map, was super interesting for understanding how our brains integrate data and the feedback in neuroplasticity.

正是意识到这一点，他们开发了一个辅助地图，现在与棱镜眼镜的 15 度偏移对齐，以及他们的原始地图，对于理解我们的大脑如何整合数据和神经可塑性反馈非常有趣。

Poppy Crum: So, I go back to my baroque violin, where I'm always out of tune, and I'm tuning up my baroque violin, and I realize I had developed absolute pitch at A415.

Poppy Crum：所以，我回到我的巴洛克小提琴，在那里我总是跑调，我正在调音我的巴洛克小提琴，我意识到我已经在 A415 发展了绝对音高。

So, I developed a secondary absolute pitch map.

因此，我开发了第二个绝对音高图。

And then I would go play Shostakovich right after at A440, and I had that map, and I had nothing in between, but I could modulate between the two.

然后我会在 A440 之后立即去玩肖斯塔科维奇，我有那张地图，中间没有任何东西，但我可以在两者之间进行调整。

Poppy Crum: And that's the point at which I said, "I think I just...

Poppy Crum：就在那时我说，“我想我只是......

My brain is a little weird, and I just did something that I need to go better understand." So, that's how I ended up here as a neuroscientist.

我的大脑有点奇怪，我只是做了一些我需要更好理解的事情。”所以，这就是我作为一名神经科学家来到这里的原因。

Andrew Huberman: I know Eric's work really well.

Andrew Huberman：我非常了解 Eric 的工作。

Our labs were next door.

我们的实验室就在隔壁。

Poppy Crum: Yes, he's wonderful.

Poppy Crum：是的，他很棒。

Andrew Huberman: Our offices were next door.

Andrew Huberman：我们的办公室就在隔壁。

Andrew Huberman: He's retired now.

安德鲁·休伯曼：他现在退休了。

Poppy Crum: I know.

罂粟花：我知道。

Poppy Crum: He knows, I've told him this story.

Poppy Crum：他知道，​​我已经告诉他这个故事了。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

Andrew Huberman: He's wonderful.

安德鲁·休伯曼：他很棒。

I think one of my favorite things about those studies, that I think people will find interesting, is that if an animal, human, or owl, has a displacement in the world, something's different, something changes, and you need to adjust to it, it could be new information coming to you that you need to learn in order to perform your sport correctly, or to perform well in class, or an emotionally challenging situation that you need to adjust to, all of that can happen, but it happens much, much faster if your life depends on it.

我认为这些研究中我最喜欢的一件事，我认为人们会觉得有趣的是，如果动物、人类或猫头鹰在世界上发生了位移，有些东西不同了，有些东西发生了变化，你需要适应它，它可能是你需要学习的新信息，你需要学习才能正确地进行你的运动，或者在课堂上表现良好，或者你需要适应一种情绪上具有挑战性的情况，所有这些都可能发生，但如果你的生活依赖它，它会发生得更快。

Poppy Crum: Mm-hmm.

Poppy Crum：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: Yes.

罂粟花粉：是的。

Andrew Huberman: And we kind of intuitively know this, but one of my favorite things about his work is where he said, "Okay, well, yeah, these owls can adjust to the prism shift.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：我们凭直觉就知道这一点，但我最喜欢他的作品之一是他说：“好吧，好吧，是的，这些猫头鹰可以适应棱镜移动。

Their maps in the brain can change, but they sure as heck form much faster if you say, 'Hey, in order to eat,' in other words, 'in order to survive, these maps have to change.'" You know?

它们在大脑中的地图可以改变，但如果你说，‘嘿，为了吃饭’，换句话说，‘为了生存，这些地图必须改变’，它们的形成速度肯定要快得多。”你知道吗？

Poppy Crum: Yes.

罂粟花粉：是的。

Andrew Huberman: And I like that study so much because we hear all the time it takes 29 days to form a new habit, or it takes 50 days to form a new habit, or whatever it is.

Andrew Huberman：我非常喜欢这项研究，因为我们总是听说需要 29 天才能形成一个新习惯，或者需要 50 天才能形成一个新习惯，或者其他什么。

Actually, you can form a new habit as quickly as is necessary to form that new habit.

事实上，你可以尽快养成新习惯。

And so the limits on neuroplasticity are really set by how critical it is.

因此，神经可塑性的限制实际上取决于它的重要性。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: And, you know, of course, if you put a gun to my head right now and you said, "Okay, remap your auditory world," I mean, there are limits at the other end too.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：当然，你知道，如果你现在用枪指着我的头，然后说，“好吧，重新映射你的听觉世界”，我的意思是，另一端也有限制。

I mean, I can't do it that quickly.

我的意思是，我做不到那么快。

But I think it's a reminder to me anyway...

但我想这对我来说还是一个提醒……

And thank you for bringing up Eric's work.

感谢您提出埃里克的工作。

It's a reminder to me that neuroplasticity is always in reach.

这提醒我，神经可塑性总是触手可及的。

If the incentives are high enough, we can do it.

如果激励足够高，我们就能做到。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: And, so I think with AI, it's going to be very interesting, or with technology generally, you know, our ability to form these new maps of experience, at least with smartphones, has been pretty gradual.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：所以我认为人工智能会非常有趣，或者就一般技术而言，你知道，我们形成这些新的体验地图的能力，至少在智能手机上，是相当渐进的。

I really see 2010 as kind of the beginning of the smartphone and then now by 2025, we're in a place where almost everyone, young and old, has integrated this new technology.

我确实认为 2010 年是智能手机的开端，而现在到 2025 年，几乎每个人，无论年轻还是年老，都已经集成了这项新技术。

Poppy Crum: Mm-hmm.

Poppy Crum：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: I think AI is coming at us very fast, and it's unclear what form it's coming at us and where, and as you said, it's already here, and I think we will adapt, for sure.

Andrew Huberman：我认为人工智能正以非常快的速度向我们袭来，目前还不清楚它以什么形式、在哪里向我们袭来，正如你所说，它已经在这里了，我认为我们肯定会适应。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: We'll form the necessary maps.

Andrew Huberman：我们将绘制必要的地图。

I think being very conscious of which maps are changing is so key.

我认为非常清楚哪些地图正在发生变化非常关键。

I mean, I think we're still doing a lot of cleanup of the detrimental aspects of smartphones.

我的意思是，我认为我们仍在对智能手机的有害方面进行大量清理工作。

Short wavelength light late at night.

深夜的短波长光。

Poppy Crum: Absolutely.

罂粟花：当然。

Andrew Huberman: You know, being in contact with so many people all the time, maybe not so good.

安德鲁·休伯曼：你知道，一直与这么多人接触，也许不太好。

I mean, I think what scares people, certainly me, is the idea that, you know, we're going to be doing a lot of error correction over the next 30 years, because we're going so fast with technology, because maps can change really, really fast.

我的意思是，我认为让人们（当然是我）感到害怕的是，你知道，我们将在未来 30 年里进行大量的纠错，因为我们的技术进步如此之快，因为地图可以改变得非常非常快。

Poppy Crum: Well, they do change.

Poppy Crum：嗯，他们确实改变了。

Sam Altman had a...

萨姆·奥特曼有一个...

I saw him say this, and I actually thought it was a really good description.

我看到他这么说，我觉得这个描述非常好。

It's like Gen X, you know, there's a group that is using AI as a tool that's sort of novel, interesting.

就像 X 世代，你知道，有一群人正在使用人工智能作为一种新颖、有趣的工具。

Then you've got different Millennials are using it as a search algorithm, and maybe that's even Gen X, but, you know, it's a little more deeply integrated.

然后，不同的千禧一代正在使用它作为搜索算法，甚至可能是 X 一代，但是，你知道，它的集成程度更深一些。

But then you go back to younger generations, and it's an operating system, and it already is.

但当你回到年轻一代时，它已经是一个操作系统了。

And that has major changes in neural structure for not just maps, but also neural processes, for how we deal with information, and how we learn.

这不仅对地图的神经结构产生了重大变化，而且对我们如何处理信息和如何学习的神经过程也产生了重大变化。

Poppy Crum: The idea that we are very plastic under pressure, absolutely.

Poppy Crum：我们在压力下具有很强的可塑性，这是绝对的。

And that's where it gets interesting to talk about different species, too.

这就是谈论不同物种也变得有趣的地方。

I mean, we're talking about owls, and that was under pressure, but what is successful human performance and training and all of these things?

我的意思是，我们谈论的是猫头鹰，它面临着压力，但是成功的人类表现和训练以及所有这些事情是什么？

It's to make those probabilistic situations more deterministic, right?

这是为了让那些概率情况更具确定性，对吗？

That's when you are...

那时你就...

If you're training as an athlete, you're really trying to not have to think and to have the fastest reaction time to very complex behaviors, given complex stimuli, complex situations, and contexts.

如果你作为一名运动员进行训练，你真的会努力在复杂的刺激、复杂的情况和环境下，不去思考，并对非常复杂的行为做出最快的反应。

Poppy Crum: But that situational awareness or physical behavior in those environments, you want that as fast as possible with as little cognitive load as possible.

Poppy Crum：但是在这些环境中的态势感知或身体行为，你希望尽可能快地认知负荷尽可能少。

And, it's like, that execution is critical.

而且，执行力是至关重要的。

You love looking across species.

你喜欢跨物种观察。

So do I.

我也一样。

And looking for these ways where we are...

并寻找我们所在的这些方式......

Poppy Crum: A brain is changing, or you've got a species that can do something that is absolutely not what you would predict, or it's incredible in its...

Poppy Crum：大脑正在发生变化，或者你有一个物种可以做一些绝对不是你预测的事情，或者它的......

How it can evade a predator, how it can find a target, find a mate.

它如何躲避捕食者，如何找到目标，找到伴侣。

And it's doing things that are critical to it being able to survive, much as you said.

正如你所说，它正在做对其生存至关重要的事情。

Like, if I make it something that is absolutely necessary for success, it's going to do it, you know?

就像，如果我让它成为成功所必需的东西，它就会做到，你知道吗？

Poppy Crum: One of my favorite examples is a particular moth that bats predate on, echolocating bats.

Poppy Crum：我最喜欢的例子之一是一种特殊的飞蛾，它以回声定位蝙蝠为食。

And frankly, echolocating bats are sort of nature's engineered, amazing predatory species.

坦率地说，回声定位蝙蝠是大自然精心设计的、令人惊叹的掠食性物种。

Their brains, when you look at them, are just incredible.

当你观察他们的大脑时，你会发现他们的大脑令人难以置信。

They have huge amounts of their brain just dedicated to what's called an FM constant frequency, FM sort of sweep.

他们有大量的大脑专门用于所谓的 FM 恒定频率，即 FM 扫描。

Some of the bats elicit a call that's sort of like, "ooh, ooh," but really high.

有些蝙蝠会发出类似“哦，哦”的叫声，但声音很大。

Andrew Huberman: So we can't hear it.

Andrew Huberman：所以我们听不到。

Yeah.

是的。

Poppy Crum: Yes.

罂粟花粉：是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman: What does that do for them?

安德鲁·休伯曼：这对他们有什么作用？

Poppy Crum: It's doing two things.

Poppy Crum：它做了两件事。

One, that the constant frequency portion is allowing them to sort of track the Doppler in a moving object.

第一，恒定频率部分允许他们跟踪移动物体中的多普勒。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: And they're even so...

Poppy Crum：他们甚至是这样......

I mean, it's such clever and sophisticated.

我的意思是，它是如此聪明和复杂。

They're not changing...

他们没有改变...

They're changing subtly, what frequencies they elicit the call at, so that it always comes back in the same frequency range, because that's where their heightened sensitivity is.

他们正在巧妙地改变引发呼叫的频率，以便呼叫总是在相同的频率范围内返回，因为这就是他们高度敏感的地方。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: So, otherwise, they're modifying their vocal cords to make sure that the call comes back in the same range, and then they're tracking how much they've had to modify their call.

Poppy Crum：所以，否则，他们会修改声带以确保呼叫返回到相同的范围内，然后他们会跟踪他们必须修改多少呼叫。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Just so that people are on board, yeah, bats echolocate.

安德鲁·休伯曼：为了让人们参与进来，是的，蝙蝠有回声定位功能。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Like, that they're sending out sound, and they can measure distance, and they can essentially see in their mind's eye.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：就像，他们发出声音，他们可以测量距离，他们基本上可以用他们的心灵之眼看到。

They can sense distance, they can sense speed of objects, they can sense the shape of objects by virtue of sounds being sent out and coming back.

它们可以感知距离，可以感知物体的速度，可以通过发出和返回的声音来感知物体的形状。

Poppy Crum: Correct.

罂粟花粉：正确。

Poppy Crum: Absolutely.

罂粟花：当然。

Andrew Huberman: And they're shaping the sounds going out differently, so that they can look at multiple objects simultaneously?

Andrew Huberman：他们正在以不同的方式发出声音，以便他们可以同时观察多个物体？

Poppy Crum: But also, they're shaping the sounds they send out so that whatever comes back is in their optimal neural range, so that they don't have to go through more neuroplasticity that they already have, like circuits that are really dedicated to these certain frequency ranges.

Poppy Crum：而且，他们正在塑造自己发出的声音，以便无论返回什么都在他们的最佳神经范围内，这样他们就不必经历更多已经拥有的神经可塑性，就像真正专用于这些特定频率范围的电路一样。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: And so, they send it out, and then they're keeping track of the deltas.

Poppy Crum：所以，他们将其发送出去，然后他们跟踪三角洲。

They're keeping track of how much they've had to change it.

他们正在记录需要改变多少。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: And that's what tells them the speed.

Poppy Crum：这就是告诉他们速度的。

So, that constant frequency is a lot like the ambulance sound going by.

所以，这个恒定的频率很像救护车经过的声音。

That's the compression of sound waves that you hear as a "whoo" when things move past you at speed.

这是声波的压缩，当物体高速从你身边经过时，你会听到“呼呼”的声音。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Right.

安德鲁·休伯曼：对。

Poppy Crum: That's the Doppler effect.

Poppy Crum：这就是多普勒效应。

And then they're also...

然后他们也...

It has, usually, a really fast FM frequency modulated sweep, and that lets me take kind of an imprint of...

通常，它具有非常快的 FM 调频扫描，这让我留下了某种印记……

So, one's telling me the speed of the object, another one's telling me sort of what the surface structure looks like, right?

所以，一个告诉我物体的速度，另一个告诉我表面结构是什么样的，对吧？

That FM sweep lets me get a sonic imprint of what's there, so I can tell topography, I can tell if there's a moth on a hard surface, right?

FM 扫描让我能够获得那里的声音印记，这样我就可以辨别地形，我可以辨别坚硬表面上是否有飞蛾，对吗？

Poppy Crum: So, what's beautiful about other species is you've got a little moth, and you've got nature's predatory marvel.

Poppy Crum：所以，其他物种的美妙之处在于你有一只小飞蛾，并且你有大自然的掠夺奇迹。

And 80% of the time, about, that moth gets away.

大约 80% 的情况下，这只飞蛾都会逃跑。

Andrew Huberman: How?

安德鲁·休伯曼：怎么办？

Poppy Crum: Multiple things.

Poppy Crum：多种事情。

I call it almost an acoustic arms race that's happening between the two, and there's a lot of acoustic subterfuge between the moth.

我称这几乎是两者之间发生的声学军备竞赛，飞蛾之间有很多声学诡计。

You know, but there's also beautiful deterministic responses that they have.

你知道，但他们也有漂亮的确定性响应。

And so, first, deterministic behaviors, again, be it an athlete, be it effectiveness, being fast, quick in making good decisions that get you the right answer, are always important.

因此，首先，确定性行为，无论是对于一名运动员，还是有效性，快速做出正确的决定以获得正确的答案，总是很重要的。

Poppy Crum: So, moths have just a few neurons.

Poppy Crum：所以，飞蛾只有几个神经元。

When that echolocating bat is flying at a certain point, when those neurons start firing, they will start flying in more of a random pattern.

当回声定位蝙蝠在某个点飞行时，当这些神经元开始放电时，它们将开始以更加随机的模式飞行。

You'll see the same thing with seals when there are great white sharks around, right?

当周围有大白鲨时，你会在海豹身上看到同样的情况，对吧？

It's decreasing the probability that it's easy for them to continue to track you.

这降低了他们继续跟踪您的可能性。

Poppy Crum: So, they'll fly in a random pattern, and then when their neurons saturate, when it gets, those calls get close enough, the moth will drop to the ground with the idea that...

Poppy Crum：所以，它们会以随机模式飞行，然后当它们的神经元饱和时，当这些叫声足够接近时，飞蛾就会掉到地上，并认为......

Assuming we don't live in cities, in a natural world, the ground is, you know, wheat, grass.

假设我们不住在城市里，在自然世界里，地面就是小麦、草。

It's a difficult environment for an echolocating bat to locate you, right?

对于回声定位蝙蝠来说，这是一个很难找到你的环境，对吧？

So, that is just a deterministic behavior that will happen regardless.

所以，这只是一种无论如何都会发生的确定性行为。

Poppy Crum: But then, the interesting part is, their body is reflecting, meta-reflectors, effectively, so that the bat may put out its call, and it deflects the energy of the call away from its body.

Poppy Crum：但是，有趣的是，它们的身体正在有效地反射，元反射器，这样蝙蝠就可以发出它的叫声，并将叫声的能量从它的身体上转移开。

So, you're deflecting it away from critical areas.

所以，你正在将它从关键区域转移开。

Poppy Crum: And, you know, this is all happening, and the changes in the physical body are interesting, but then it's the behavioral differences that are really key.

Poppy Crum：而且，你知道，这一切都在发生，身体的变化很有趣，但真正关键的是行为差异。

Right?

正确的？

It's how fast does that moth react if it has to question, or if it were cognitively responsive instead of being deterministic in its behavior, it wouldn't escape, right?

问题在于，如果这只飞蛾必须提出疑问，它的反应有多快，或者如果它是认知响应而不是确定性行为，它就不会逃跑，对吗？

But it gets away.

但它却消失了。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I've never thought about bats and moths.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，我从来没有想过蝙蝠和飞蛾。

I never got the insect...

我从来没有遇到过这种虫子...

I was about to say, I never got the insect bug.

我正想说，我从来没有感染过这种昆虫。

But, no pun intended.

但是，没有双关语的意思。

I never got the insect bug because I don't think of things in the auditory domain.

我从来没有患过昆虫病，因为我不考虑听觉领域的事情。

I think of things in the visual domain.

我思考视觉领域的事物。

And some insects are very visual, but it's good for me to think about that, you know, one of my favorite people, although I never met him, was Oliver Sacks, the neurologist and writer, and he claimed to have spent a lot of time just sitting in chair and trying to imagine what life would be like as a bat, as a way to enhance his clinical abilities with patients suffering from different neurologic disorders.

有些昆虫非常直观，但对我来说，想想这一点是有好处的，你知道，我最喜欢的人之一，虽然我从未见过他，是奥利弗·萨克斯，神经学家和作家，他声称花了很多时间坐在椅子上，试图想象作为蝙蝠的生活会是什么样子，以此来提高他对患有不同神经系统疾病的患者的临床能力。

Poppy Crum: Huh.

罂粟花：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: So, when he would interact with somebody with Parkinson's, or with severe autism, or with locked-in syndrome, or any number of different deficits of the nervous system, he would...

安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，当他与患有帕金森症、严重自闭症、闭锁综合症或任何不同神经系统缺陷的人互动时，他会……

He felt that he could go into their mind a bit to understand what their experience was like.

他觉得自己可以稍微走进他们的内心，了解他们的经历是什么样的。

He could empathize with them, and that would make him more effective at treating them.

他可以同情他们，这会让他更有效地治疗他们。

Andrew Huberman: And he certainly was very effective at storying out their experience in ways that brought about a lot of compassion and understanding.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：他确实非常有效地讲述了他们的经历，从而带来了很多同情和理解。

Like, he never presented a neural condition in a way that made you feel sorry for the person.

就像，他从来没有以一种让你为这个人感到难过的方式呈现出神经状况。

Poppy Crum: Mm-hmm.

Poppy Crum：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: It was always the opposite.

安德鲁·休伯曼：情况总是相反的。

Poppy Crum: Mm-hmm.

Poppy Crum：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: And I should point out, I'm not trying to be politically correct here, but when I say autistic, I meant the patients he worked with were severely autistic to the point of never being able to take care of themselves.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我应该指出，我并不是想在政治上正确，但当我说自闭症时，我的意思是他所治疗的患者患有严重自闭症，以至于永远无法照顾自己。

We're not talking about along the spectrum.

我们不是在谈论整个范围。

We're talking about the far end of the spectrum of needing assisted living their entire lives and being sensory, from a sensory standpoint, extremely sensitive, couldn't go out in public, that kind of thing.

我们谈论的是极端的情况，即一生都需要辅助生活，并且是感官的，从感官的角度来看，极其敏感，不能在公共场合外出，诸如此类的事情。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: We're not talking about people that are functioning with autism.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我们不是在谈论患有自闭症的人。

Andrew Huberman: So, apparently, thinking in the auditory domain was useful for him, so I should probably do that.

安德鲁·休伯曼：显然，在听觉领域思考对他很有用，所以我应该这样做。

So, I have one final question for you, which is...

所以，我有最后一个问题要问你，那就是……

Well, it's really two questions.

嗯，这确实是两个问题。

Andrew Huberman: First question: Why did you sing to spiders?

安德鲁·休伯曼：第一个问题：你为什么要对蜘蛛唱歌？

And second: What does that tell us about spiderwebs?

第二：关于蜘蛛网，这告诉我们什么？

Because I confess I know the answers to these questions, but I was absolutely blown away to learn what spiderwebs are actually for, and you singing to spiders reveals what they're for.

因为我承认我知道这些问题的答案，但当我了解蜘蛛网的实际用途时，我绝对感到震惊，而你对蜘蛛唱歌揭示了它们的用途。

So, why did you sing to spiders?

那么，你为什么要对蜘蛛唱歌呢？

Poppy Crum: Two things, and you can watch me sing to a spider on a TED Talk I gave a few years ago.

Poppy Crum：有两件事，你可以在几年前的 TED 演讲中看到我对蜘蛛唱歌。

Andrew Huberman: We'll put a link to it.

Andrew Huberman：我们会放一个链接。

Poppy Crum: Years back.

Poppy Crum：几年前。

Okay.

好的。

And so, just maybe this comes back to I have absolute pitch, so I know what frequencies I'm singing.

所以，也许这又回到了我有绝对音高，所以我知道我在唱歌的频率。

But I also recognize, by having absolute pitch, I know my brain is just a little different.

但我也认识到，通过绝对音高，我知道我的大脑有点不同。

Again, you asked me what threads drive me.

你再一次问我是什么线程驱动我。

Poppy Crum: It's always been...

Poppy Crum：一直都是……

We do experience the world differently, and I believe that our success, everyone's success, and the success of our growth as humans is partly dependent on how we use technology to help improve and optimize each of us, with the different variables we need, right?

我们确实以不同的方式体验世界，我相信我们的成功、每个人的成功以及我们作为人类成长的成功部分取决于我们如何使用技术来帮助改进和优化我们每个人，以及我们需要的不同变量，对吗？

So, different species and how they respond to sound is very interesting to me.

因此，不同的物种以及它们对声音的反应对我来说非常有趣。

And as much as you...

而且只要你...

Poppy Crum: I know, Andy, you look at how different species respond to color and to information in their world, be it cuttlefish or such.

Poppy Crum：我知道，安迪，你看看不同的物种如何对它们的世界中的颜色和信息做出反应，无论是墨鱼还是其他物种。

I have jellyfish too, and I can see how their pulsing rates change with their photoreceptors when they...

我也有水母，当它们……时，我可以看到它们的脉冲率如何随着光感受器的变化而变化。

With different light colors.

具有不同的光色。

Andrew Huberman: Oh, cool.

安德鲁·休伯曼：哦，酷。

Poppy Crum: It's very obvious that some clearly make...

Poppy Crum：很明显，有些人明显......

When they're under stress versus when they're in a more calming state.

当他们处于压力之下时与当他们处于更平静的状态时。

And so, it's like understanding the stimuli in our world that shape us.

因此，这就像了解世界上塑造我们的刺激因素一样。

Those changes are a huge part of being human, in my perspective.

在我看来，这些变化是人类的重要组成部分。

Poppy Crum: In this case, this happens to be an orb spider, the one I sing to, and when I hit about 880 hertz, you will see the spider kind of dances.

Poppy Crum：在这种情况下，这恰好是一只圆球蜘蛛，我唱歌的对象，当我达到大约 880 赫兹时，你会看到蜘蛛的舞蹈。

But, what this particular species, and not all spiders will do this, is predated it on by echolocating bats and birds, which makes sense that, then it tunes its web effectively.

但是，这个特定的物种（而不是所有的蜘蛛）都会通过回声定位蝙蝠和鸟类来做到这一点，这是有道理的，然后它会有效地调整它的网。

And orb weavers are all over California.

球体编织者遍布加州。

They show up a lot around Thanksgiving, if you are...

他们在感恩节前后经常出现，如果你...

October, November, for anyone that's out here on the West Coast.

十月、十一月，对于任何在西海岸的人来说。

Poppy Crum: They're not bad spiders.

Poppy Crum：它们不是坏蜘蛛。

They are not spiders you need to get rid of.

它们不是您需要消灭的蜘蛛。

They're totally happy spiders.

他们是非常快乐的蜘蛛。

There are some that maybe you should worry about more.

有些事情也许你应该更加担心。

Anyhow, they tune their webs to resonate like a violin, and when...

不管怎样，它们会调整自己的网，使其像小提琴一样产生共鸣，而当……

Yeah, you'll see it.

是的，你会看到的。

As I hit a certain frequency, it'll effectively tell me to go away.

当我达到某个频率时，它会有效地告诉我离开。

And it's a pretty interesting sort of deterministic response.

这是一种非常有趣的确定性响应。

Other insects do different things.

其他昆虫做不同的事情。

Poppy Crum: The one kind of funny for that was when my daughter was...

Poppy Crum：其中一种有趣的是当我女儿......

I think at the time she was about two and a half or three, and she kind of adopted asking me when we would see spiders, if it was the kind we should sing to or the kind we shouldn't touch.

我想当时她大约两岁半或三岁，她有点问我我们什么时候会看到蜘蛛，是我们应该唱歌的蜘蛛还是我们不应该碰的蜘蛛。

And so, those were the two classes.

所以，这就是两个班级。

Andrew Huberman: So amazing.

安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。

So, if I understand correctly, these orb spiders use their web more or less as an instrument to detect certain sound frequencies in their environment so that they can respond appropriately.

所以，如果我理解正确的话，这些圆球蜘蛛或多或少地使用它们的网作为一种工具来检测环境中的某些声音频率，以便它们能够做出适当的反应。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Poppy Crum: Yes.

罂粟花粉：是的。

Poppy Crum: Resonances, absolutely.

Poppy Crum：绝对是共鸣。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Either by raising their legs to protect themselves or to attack or whatever it is.

Andrew Huberman：要么抬起腿来保护自己，要么进行攻击，或者无论什么。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: The spider web is a functional thing, not just for catching prey.

Andrew Huberman：蜘蛛网是一种功能性的东西，不仅仅是为了捕捉猎物。

It's a detection device also.

这也是一个检测装置。

And we know that because when prey are caught in a spider web, they wiggle, and then the spider goes over to it and wraps it and eats it.

我们知道这一点，因为当猎物被蜘蛛网捕获时，它们会蠕动，然后蜘蛛会走到猎物面前，将其包裹并吃掉。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: But the idea that it would be tuned to particular frequencies is really wild.

Andrew Huberman：但是将其调谐到特定频率的想法确实很疯狂。

Poppy Crum: Yeah, not just by any vibration, right?

Poppy Crum：是的，不仅仅是通过任何振动，对吧？

You know, there's the idea that there's any vibration, I know I've got food somewhere, I should go to that food source.

你知道，有一种想法是，有任何振动，我知道我在某处有食物，我应该去那个食物源。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: But instead, it's something that if I experience a threat or something, I'm going to behave, and that is a more selective response that I've tuned it towards.

Poppy Crum：但相反，如果我遇到威胁或其他什么事情，我就会采取行动，这是我调整的更具选择性的反应。

Andrew Huberman: It's so interesting because if I just transfer it to the visual domain, it's like, yeah, of course, like if an animal, including us, sees something, like a looming object coming at us closer to dark, our immediate response is to either freeze or flee.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：这很有趣，因为如果我把它转移到视觉领域，就像，是的，当然，就像如果包括我们在内的动物看到什么东西，比如一个隐约出现的物体接近黑暗，我们的第一反应是要么冻结或逃跑。

Poppy Crum: Mm-hmm.

Poppy Crum：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Like, that's just what we do.

Andrew Huberman：就像，这就是我们所做的。

The looming response is one of the most fundamental responses.

迫在眉睫的反应是最基本的反应之一。

Poppy Crum: Mm-hmm.

Poppy Crum：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: But that's in the visual domain.

Andrew Huberman：但那是在视觉领域。

So, the fact that there would be auditory cues that would bring about what you said, sort of deterministic responses, seems very real.

因此，听觉线索会带来你所说的某种确定性反应，这一事实似乎非常真实。

I feel like that the wail of somebody in pain evokes a certain response.

我觉得一个痛苦的人的哭声会引起某种反应。

Poppy Crum: Yes.

罂粟花粉：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Yesterday, there was a lot of noise outside my window at night, and there was a moment where I couldn't tell were these shouts of glee or shouts of fear.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：昨天晚上，我的窗外有很多噪音，有一刻我分不清这些是欢乐的呼喊还是恐惧的呼喊。

Poppy Crum: Hmm.

罂粟花粉：嗯。

Andrew Huberman: And I kind of tuned in, and then I heard this kind of high-pitched fluttering that came after the scream, and I realized these were kids playing in the alley outside of my house.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我稍微调整了一下，然后我听到尖叫声后传来这种高亢的颤动声，我意识到这些是孩子们在我家外面的小巷里玩耍。

Poppy Crum: Oh.

罂粟花粉：哦。

Andrew Huberman: And I went and looked, and I was like, "Oh, yeah, they're definitely playing." But I knew even before I went and looked, based on kind of the flutter of sound that came after the shriek.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：我去看了看，然后我就想，“哦，是的，他们肯定在玩。”但在我去看之前，根据尖叫声后传来的颤动声，我就知道了。

It was like, "Ah!" And then it was, "Rrr." It was like, I can't reproduce the sound at that high frequency.

就好像“啊！”然后就是“呃”。就像，我无法再现那么高频率的声音。

Poppy Crum: No, no. But that's, that's super...

罂粟花粉：不，不。但就是这样，那真是太棒了……

Andrew Huberman: But, so the idea that this would be true all the time is super interesting.

安德鲁·休伯曼：但是，这种情况始终如此的想法非常有趣。

We just don't tend to focus just on our hearing unless, of course, somebody's blind, in which case they have to rely on it much more.

我们只是不倾向于只关注我们的听力，当然，除非某人是盲人，在这种情况下他们必须更加依赖它。

Poppy Crum: So, two interesting things to go with that.

Poppy Crum：那么，有两件有趣的事情与之相伴。

So, like, crickets, for example.

例如，蟋蟀。

Crickets have bimodal neurons that have sort of peaks in two different frequency ranges for the same neuron, and each frequency range will elicit a completely different behavior to when...

蟋蟀具有双峰神经元，同一神经元在两个不同的频率范围内有某种峰值，每个频率范围都会引发完全不同的行为......

So, you've got a peak at 6K, and you've got a peak at 40K.

因此，在 6K 处有一个峰值，在 40K 处也有一个峰值。

And a cricket...

还有一只蟋蟀...

And this is the same neuron, a cricket hears 40K from a speaker, run over to it because that's got to be my mate or someone that...

这是同一个神经元，一只蟋蟀从扬声器中听到 40K 的声音，跑向它，因为那一定是我的伴侣或某个......

And they hear 40K, and they run away.

他们听到 40K 的声音，就逃跑了。

Poppy Crum: And it's a very predictive behavior.

Poppy Crum：这是一种非常具有预测性的行为。

I spent a lot of...

我花了很多...

Well, I spent a good period of time working with a non-primate, non-human primate species, marmosets.

嗯，我花了很长时间与非灵长类、非人类灵长类物种狨猴一起工作。

Marmosets are very interesting when you get to a more sophisticated neural system.

当你了解更复杂的神经系统时，狨猴会非常有趣。

But marmosets are very social, you know, it's critical to their happiness.

但狨猴非常善于社交，这对它们的幸福至关重要。

If you ever see a single marmoset in the zoo or something, that's a very unhappy animal.

如果你在动物园或其他地方看到一只狨猴，那是一种非常不高兴的动物。

Poppy Crum: But they're native to the Amazon, New World monkeys, native to Brazil and the Amazon, but they're arboreal.

Poppy Crum：但它们原产于亚马逊，新世界猴，原产于巴西和亚马逊，但它们是树栖的。

They live in trees.

他们住在树上。

And they're very social.

而且他们非常社交。

So, that kind of can be in conflict with each other because you're in dense foliage, but yet you need to communicate.

因此，这种情况可能会相互冲突，因为你身处茂密的树叶中，但你仍然需要沟通。

Poppy Crum: So, they've evolved very interesting systems to be able to achieve what they needed to, which, one, if you ever see marmosets, they're very stoic, unlike macaque monkeys that often have a lot of visual expression of how they're feeling.

Poppy Crum：所以，它们进化出了非常有趣的系统，能够实现它们所需要的，其中之一，如果你见过狨猴，它们非常坚忍，不像猕猴，猕猴通常有很多视觉表达它们的感受。

Marmosets always look about the same.

狨猴看起来总是差不多。

But their vocalizations are almost like bird song, and they're very rich in the information that they're communicating.

但它们的声音几乎就像鸟儿的歌声，而且它们所传达的信息非常丰富。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: They also have a pheromonal system.

Poppy Crum：它们也有信息素系统。

Like, you know, that you can have a dominant female in the colony who may not be...

就像，你知道，你可以在群体中拥有一个占主导地位的雌性，但她可能不是......

Because you have to have ways of...

因为你必须有办法...

When one sense is compromised, the other senses sort of rise up to help assure that the success of what that species or system needs is going to thrive.

当一种感官受到损害时，另一种感官就会崛起，以帮助确保该物种或系统所需的成功将会蓬勃发展。

Poppy Crum: And in the case of marmosets, you can have the dominant female effectively causes the ovulation of...

Poppy Crum：对于狨猴来说，你可以让占主导地位的雌性有效地导致......的排卵。

Like, the biology to change of all the other females.

就像，所有其他女性的生物学改变一样。

And you can have a female that you put just in the same proximity, but now as part of a different group, and her biology will change.

你可以把一只雌性放在同样的位置，但现在作为不同群体的一部分，她的生物学会发生变化。

I mean, it's very powerful, the pheromonal interactions that happen in the...

我的意思是，它非常强大，发生在……中的信息素相互作用。

Because those are things that can travel even when I can't see you.

因为即使我看不到你，那些东西也能旅行。

Poppy Crum: One thing, when I was working with them, that I thought was...

Poppy Crum：当我和他们一起工作时，我认为有一件事......

And I never...

而我从来不...

I like writing patents more than publishing papers.

比起发表论文，我更喜欢撰写专利。

But these things are real, because I was studying pupillometry, is understanding the power of their saccades.

但这些东西都是真实的，因为我正在研究瞳孔测量，正在了解它们眼跳的力量。

I could know what they were hearing based on their eye movements.

我可以根据他们的眼球运动知道他们听到了什么。

Right?

正确的？

So, if I play...

那么，如果我玩...

Marmosets have...

狨猴有...

Some of their calls are really antiphonal.

他们的一些通话确实是对歌的。

They're to see, "Hey, are you out there?

他们会看到，“嘿，你在外面吗？

Am I alone?

我一个人吗？

Who else is around?"

周围还有谁？”

Andrew Huberman: It's like texting for humans.

Andrew Huberman：这就像人类发短信一样。

Poppy Crum: Yeah.

罂粟花克拉姆：是的。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

Poppy Crum: Yeah, and sometimes it's light or sometimes it might be like, "Oh," you know, from, "Be careful.

Poppy Crum：是的，有时很轻，有时可能会像“哦”，你知道，“小心点。

There's somebody around that we got to watch out for." Maybe there's a leopard on the ground or something, right?

周围有人，我们必须提防。”也许地上有一只豹子之类的，对吧？

And then sometimes it's like, "You're in my face.

有时就像是，“你就在我面前。

Get out of here now." Right?

现在就离开这里。”正确的？

And those are three different things, and I can play that to you, and I can tell you without hearing it, and I know exactly what's being heard.

这是三种不同的东西，我可以向你播放它，我可以在不听的情况下告诉你，我确切地知道听到的是什么。

In the case of the antiphonal, "Hey, are you out there?" You see, the eye will just start scanning back and forth, right?

在对歌的情况下，“嘿，你在外面吗？”你看，眼睛会开始来回扫描，对吗？

Because that's the right movement.

因为那是正确的动作。

I'm looking for, where's this coming from?

我正在寻找，这是从哪里来的？

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, they paired the right eye movement with the right sound.

Andrew Huberman：是的，他们将右眼运动与正确的声音配对。

Poppy Crum: Exactly.

罂粟花：没错。

In the case of, look, there's something to be scared, you know, threatened of, you're going to see dilation, and you're also going to see some scanning, but it's not as slow.

在这种情况下，看，有一些东西值得害怕，你知道，受到威胁，你会看到扩张，你也会看到一些扫描，但速度没那么慢。

It's a lot faster because there's a threat to me.

速度快了很多，因为我受到了威胁。

My autonomic system and my cognitive system are reacting differently.

我的自主系统和认知系统的反应不同。

And in the case of "You're in my face," it's going to be without even...

在“你在我面前”的情况下，它甚至不会......

So, without seeing you, if I hear another sort of aggressive sound, I'm going to react.

所以，在没有看到你的情况下，如果我听到另一种攻击性的声音，我就会做出反应。

I'm going to be...

我将会...

I'm not scanning anywhere, but my dilation is going to be fast, and I'm also going to be much more on top of things.

我不会扫描任何地方，但我的扩张会很快，而且我也会更加关注事物。

But we do this as humans, too, right?

但我们作为人类也会这样做，对吗？

Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.

安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Poppy Crum: And it's like, you can walk into a business meeting, walk into a conference room, and it's these subtle cues that are...

Poppy Crum：就像，你可以走进商务会议，走进会议室，这些微妙的线索......

You know, we don't always suppress them.

你知道，我们并不总是压制他们。

We show them whether we think we do or we don't.

我们向他们展示我们是否认为我们这样做了。

But, when you look at species like that, it's very much like, okay, there's a lot of sophistication in how their bodies are helping them be successful even in a world or an environment that has a lot of things that could maybe come after them.

但是，当你观察这样的物种时，你会发现，好吧，即使在一个可能会发生很多事情的世界或环境中，他们的身体如何帮助他们取得成功，也有很多复杂的技巧。

Andrew Huberman: So interesting to think about that in terms of our own human behavior and what we're optimizing for, especially as all these technologies come on board, and are sure to come on board even more quickly.

Andrew Huberman：从我们自己的人类行为以及我们正在优化的内容角度思考这一点非常有趣，特别是当所有这些技术都出现时，并且肯定会更快地出现。

Andrew Huberman: Poppy, thank you so much for coming here today to educate us about what you've done, what's here now, what's to come.

Andrew Huberman：Poppy，非常感谢您今天来到这里，向我们介绍您所做的事情、现在的情况以及未来的情况。

We covered a lot of different territories, and I'm glad we did because you have expertise in a lot of areas, and I love that you are constantly thinking about technology development.

我们覆盖了很多不同的领域，我很高兴我们做到了，因为你们在很多领域都有专业知识，而且我喜欢你们不断思考技术开发。

And I drew a little diagram for myself that I'll just describe for people, because if I understood correctly, one of the reasons you got into neuroscience and research at all is about this interface between inputs and us.

我为自己画了一个小图表，我将向人们描述它，因为如果我理解正确的话，你进入神经科学和研究的原因之一就是关于输入和我们之间的这种界面。

Andrew Huberman: And what sits in between those two things is this incredible feature of our nervous systems which is neuroplasticity, or what I sometimes like to refer to as self-directed plasticity, because unlike other species, we can decide what we want to change and make the effort to adopt a second map of the auditory world, or visual world, or take on a new set of learnings in any domain.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：介于这两件事之间的是我们的神经系统令人难以置信的特征，即神经可塑性，或者我有时喜欢称之为自我导向可塑性，因为与其他物种不同，我们可以决定我们想要改变什么，并努力采用听觉世界或视觉世界的第二张地图，或者在任何领域进行一套新的学习。

And we can do it.

我们可以做到。

If we put our mind to it, if the incentives are high enough, we can do it.

如果我们下定决心，如果激励足够高，我们就能做到。

Andrew Huberman: And at the same time, neuroplasticity is always occurring based on the things we're bombarded with, new technology, so we have to be aware of how we are changing, and we need to intervene at times and leverage those things for our health.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：与此同时，神经可塑性总是基于我们受到的新技术轰炸而发生，所以我们必须意识到我们正在如何变化，我们需要时常进行干预并利用这些东西来促进我们的健康。

So, thank you so much for doing the work that you do.

所以，非常感谢您所做的工作。

Thank you for coming here to educate us on them and keep us posted.

感谢您来到这里向我们介绍这些内容并随时向我们通报情况。

We'll provide links to you singing to spiders and all the rest.

我们将为您提供向蜘蛛和其他人唱歌的链接。

My mind's blown.

我的心被震撼了。

Thank you so much.

太感谢了。

Poppy Crum: Thank you, Andy.

Poppy Crum：谢谢你，安迪。

Great to be here.

很高兴来到这里。

Andrew Huberman: Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Poppy Crum.

Andrew Huberman：感谢您参加今天与 Poppy Crum 博士的讨论。

To learn more about her work and to find links to the various resources we discussed, please see the show note captions.

要了解有关她的工作的更多信息并查找我们讨论的各种资源的链接，请参阅节目注释标题。

If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.

如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。

That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.

这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。

In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple.

此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的关注按钮来关注播客。

And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review, and you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.

在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您可以给我们留下五星级的评论，现在您可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。

Andrew Huberman: Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.

Andrew Huberman：另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。

That's the best way to support this podcast.

这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。

If you have questions for me, or comments about the podcast, or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comment section on YouTube.

如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客有意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑嘉宾或主题，请将这些内容放在 YouTube 的评论部分。

I do read all the comments.

我确实阅读了所有评论。

Andrew Huberman: For those of you who haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.

安德鲁·休伯曼：对于那些还没有听说过的人，我有一本新书即将出版。

It's my very first book.

这是我的第一本书。

It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience, and it covers protocols for everything from sleep, to exercise, to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and, of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.

它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这是我花了五年多时间编写的一本书，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验，涵盖了从睡眠、锻炼、压力控制、与注意力和动机相关的各个方面的方案，当然，我还为所包含的方案提供了科学依据。

Andrew Huberman: The book is now available by pre-sale at protocolsbook.com.

Andrew Huberman：这本书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。

There, you can find links to various vendors.

在那里，您可以找到各个供应商的链接。

You can pick the one that you like best.

您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。

Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body."

同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。

Andrew Huberman: And if you're not already following me on social media, I am hubermanlab on all social media platforms.

Andrew Huberman：如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 hubermanlab。

So, that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.

这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。

And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast.

在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。

Again, it's hubermanlab on all social media platforms.

再说一遍，所有社交媒体平台上都是 hubermanlab。

Andrew Huberman: And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, and deliberate cold exposure.

Andrew Huberman：如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺和故意冷暴露等所有内容。

We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.

我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。

All of that is available completely zero-cost.

所有这些都是完全零成本的。

Andrew Huberman: You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to newsletter, and enter your email.

Andrew Huberman：您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的菜单选项卡，向下滚动到时事通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件即可。

And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.

我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。

Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Poppy Crum.

再次感谢您参加今天与 Poppy Crum 博士的讨论。

And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。