Eating for Better Sleep & Foods that Improve Metabolic Health | Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
What was it that they ate that day that impacted how they slept that night?
他们那天吃的什么影响了他们当晚的睡眠？
And we found that higher intakes of fiber were associated with more deep sleep, higher intakes of saturated fat, less deep sleep, and then more refined carbohydrates, simple sugars, more arousals.
我们发现，纤维摄入量越高，深度睡眠越深，饱和脂肪摄入量越高，深度睡眠越少，然后是精制碳水化合物、单糖越多，兴奋程度越高。
You're not getting deep slow-wave sleep, REM sleep, as much as you would otherwise.
你不会像其他方式那样获得深度慢波睡眠、快速眼动睡眠。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge, a professor of nutritional medicine at the Institute of Human Nutrition at Columbia University School of Medicine.
今天我的嘉宾是哥伦比亚大学医学院人类营养研究所的营养医学教授 Marie-Pierre St-Onge 博士。
Today, we discuss how you eat impacts your sleep and how you sleep impacts what you eat, as well as how your body utilizes food depending on how you slept.
今天，我们讨论饮食如何影响睡眠、睡眠如何影响饮食，以及身体如何根据睡眠方式利用食物。
Now, we've talked about food and we've talked about sleep many times before on this podcast, but Dr. St-Onge's work is unique because she runs one of the few laboratories in the world to look at the bidirectional relationship between sleep and food.
现在，我们已经在这个播客中多次讨论过食物和睡眠，但 St-Onge 博士的工作是独一无二的，因为她经营着世界上为数不多的几个研究睡眠和食物之间双向关系的实验室之一。
For instance, you'll learn how even modest sleep deprivation increases hunger, but differently in men and women.
例如，您将了解即使是轻微的睡眠不足也会增加饥饿感，但男性和女性的情况有所不同。
In men, it happens to increase the hormones that drive the desire to eat, whereas in women, it reduces naturally made peptides such as GLP, which suppress hunger.
对于男性来说，它会增加驱动食欲的激素，而对于女性来说，它会减少天然产生的肽，例如抑制饥饿的 GLP。
Today's discussion gets into the specific actionable items that you can do to improve your sleep and the way that your body handles food and hunger.
今天的讨论涉及改善睡眠以及身体处理食物和饥饿的方式可以采取的具体可行措施。
We talk about the role of sleep in regulating blood sugar, cortisol levels, overall metabolism, and cardiometabolic health.
我们讨论睡眠在调节血糖、皮质醇水平、整体代谢和心脏代谢健康方面的作用。
Now, because Dr. St-Onge's research focuses on sleep and nutrition, but she's also spent a significant amount of time studying how specific nutrients impact overall health and not just sleep, we also talk about that.
现在，由于 St-Onge 博士的研究重点是睡眠和营养，但她也花费了大量时间研究特定营养素如何影响整体健康而不仅仅是睡眠，因此我们也讨论了这一点。
I'm certain that you'll come away from today's episode with a lot of new information you haven't heard elsewhere, as well as with the intention to make small or perhaps even large changes in behavior and nutritional choices that the science tell us can significantly improve your sleep, your metabolism, and overall health.
我确信，看完今天的节目后，您会获得许多在其他地方没有听说过的新信息，并打算在行为和营养选择上做出微小甚至可能较大的改变，科学告诉我们，这些改变可以显着改善您的睡眠、新陈代谢和整体健康。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge.
现在我与 Marie-Pierre St-Onge 博士进行了讨论。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge, welcome.
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士，欢迎光临。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Thank you for having me.
谢谢你有我。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sleep impacts how and what we eat, and how and what we eat impacts sleep.
睡眠影响我们的饮食方式和饮食，而我们的饮食方式和饮食也会影响睡眠。
That's a different perspective than I think most people take.
这与我认为大多数人所持的观点不同。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think most people are familiar, however, with not getting the best night's sleep, maybe feeling like their impulsivity to eat "bad foods" is a little higher, and then also hopefully familiar with having a great night's sleep and feeling like we're just kind of in control in a different way.
然而，我认为大多数人都熟悉没有获得最好的夜间睡眠，也许感觉自己吃“坏食物”的冲动有点高，然后也希望熟悉拥有良好的夜间睡眠并感觉我们只是以不同的方式进行控制。
Maybe you could just share for us what's really going on beneath that experience and when subtle or not so subtle chronic sleep loss, so not an all-nighter necessarily, but 45 minutes less here, 90 minutes less there, et cetera.
也许你可以为我们分享一下这种经历背后到底发生了什么，以及微妙或不那么微妙的慢性睡眠不足，所以不一定是通宵，但这里少45分钟，那里少90分钟，等等。
How that plays out in terms of our nutrition, and then we'll go in from the nutrition side to sleep.
这对我们的营养有何影响，然后我们将从营养方面进入睡眠。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Sure.
当然。
So there's a couple of questions that you have in there actually about the extent of sleep loss and how that influences your food intake, what we see in the general population versus what we do in a lab to address causality.
因此，您实际上有几个问题，关于睡眠不足的程度以及它如何影响您的食物摄入量，我们在普通人群中看到的情况与我们在实验室中为解决因果关系所做的事情。
So let me start with the population-based studies.
让我从基于人群的研究开始。
So when I started being interested in sleep, it was coming from an obesity angle.
所以当我开始对睡眠感兴趣时，是从肥胖的角度出发的。
My PhD is in nutrition.
我的博士学位是营养学。
I trained as a postdoc in body composition, obesity research, and we were getting a lot of information from population-based studies that people who sleep too little have a higher body mass index than people who get adequate amount of sleep.
我接受了身体成分、肥胖研究方面的博士后培训，我们从基于人群的研究中获得了大量信息，即睡眠过少的人比睡眠充足的人具有更高的体重指数。
Then it became there's a higher prevalence of people with obesity in this short sleep group.
然后，在这个睡眠时间短的群体中，肥胖人群的患病率更高。
Then studies evaluating changes over time, seeing that people who don't sleep enough tend to gain more weight.
然后研究评估随时间的变化，发现睡眠不足的人往往会增加更多体重。
There was a famous nurses' health study that I really like to cite when I give talks.
我在演讲时非常喜欢引用一项著名的护士健康研究。
It was published in 2006, where they tracked nurses over 14 years, and those nurses that reported sleeping five, six hours had much higher rate of weight gain over that 14, 15-year period than the nurses who had reported sleeping seven or eight hours per night.
该报告发表于 2006 年，他们对护士进行了超过 14 年的跟踪调查，发现那些报告每晚睡 5、6 小时的护士在这 14、15 年期间的体重增加率比报告每晚睡 7、8 小时的护士要高得多。
So those are observations that we get from large-scale population studies, cohorts.
这些是我们从大规模人群研究、队列中得到的观察结果。
But what those studies tell us is that things are happening at a point in time or may influence something that's happening over time, but not necessarily that one causes the other, right?
但这些研究告诉我们的是，事情在某个时间点发生，或者可能影响随着时间的推移发生的事情，但不一定是其中一个导致另一个，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
So I started my work in this field trying to uncover whether sleeping too little actually causes weight gain.
因此，我开始了这一领域的工作，试图揭示睡眠过少是否真的会导致体重增加。
And so in my opinion, because I was coming from a lab where I trained in the measurement of energy balance, so how much energy you eat versus how much energy you burn, I was like, well, if sleep leads to obesity, leads to weight gain, it has to impact this energy balance regulation.
所以在我看来，因为我来自一个接受能量平衡测量培训的实验室，所以你吃多少能量与你燃烧多少能量，我想，好吧，如果睡眠导致肥胖，导致体重增加，它必须影响这种能量平衡调节。
So it's either that we eat more than we should or that we exercise less.
因此，要么我们吃得过多，要么我们锻炼得较少。
We burn less or we eat more, or maybe it's a combination of the two.
我们燃烧得更少，或者我们吃得更多，或者可能是两者的结合。
Let's try this out and see.
让我们尝试一下看看。
So my first study, my first NIH grant, the big R01s, was To look exactly at this.
所以我的第一项研究，我的第一笔 NIH 资助，大 R01s，就是为了准确地观察这一点。
So we had people who had adequate sleep, and we brought them in the lab, and we asked them in a crossover design, so half of the participants started out sleeping adequately, so then we gave them a nine-hour time in bed opportunity, or we asked them to sleep too little, so they had a four-hour time in bed opportunity, very short.
所以我们有睡眠充足的人，我们把他们带到实验室，我们以交叉设计的方式要求他们，所以一半的参与者开始睡眠充足，所以然后我们给他们一个九小时的床上时间的机会，或者我们要求他们睡得太少，所以他们有四个小时的床上时间的机会，非常短。
But we did this for five nights.
但我们这样做了五个晚上。
And then we took all sorts of measurements in a controlled feeding condition.
然后我们在受控的喂养条件下进行了各种测量。
So for the first three days, we had our participants eat the exact same thing, regardless of how much time in bed they slept, they got at night.
因此，在前三天，我们让参与者吃完全相同的东西，无论他们晚上在床上睡了多少时间。
And then we measured appetite-regulating hormones.
然后我们测量了食欲调节激素。
We did neuroimaging to really get at isolating the impact of sleep duration on appetite-regulating hormones and neuronal responses to foods.
我们进行了神经影像学检查，以真正了解睡眠时间对食欲调节激素和神经元对食物反应的影响。
And then on the last day, we let them self-select their food intake, and we measured that in the lab.
然后在最后一天，我们让他们自行选择食物摄入量，并在实验室进行测量。
From that study, we showed that in men specifically, we saw an increase in ghrelin in response to the short sleep, so this hormone that triggers food intake.
从这项研究中，我们发现，特别是在男性中，我们发现饥饿素会因睡眠不足而增加，因此这种激素会触发食物摄入。
In women, we saw a reduction in GLP-1, interestingly enough.
有趣的是，我们在女性中发现 GLP-1 减少。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Glucagon-like peptide 1.
胰高血糖素样肽1.
So the satiety hormone was reduced as a result of short sleep in women.
因此，女性睡眠不足会导致饱腹感激素减少。
And then when we measured their food intake in the lab, they ate 300 calories more in the short sleep condition than when they got their regular adequate sleep of at least seven and a half hours, a little more than that per night.
然后，当我们在实验室测量他们的食物摄入量时，他们在短睡眠条件下摄入的热量比正常睡眠至少七个半小时时多摄入了 300 卡路里，比每晚多一点。
Then you were asking about brain responses.
然后你问的是大脑的反应。
We looked at neuronal responses to food stimuli.
我们观察了神经元对食物刺激的反应。
We found upregulation in reward centers of the brain in the context of sleep restriction compared to the context of adequate sleep.
我们发现，与睡眠充足的情况相比，睡眠限制的情况下大脑奖励中心的调节上调。
So altogether, really building a case that when you don't sleep enough at night, you have both physiological signals to eat more for men or not stop eating in women that lead to greater food intake that also could be impacted by just pleasurable centers that are activated to a greater extent as a result of insufficient sleep.
总而言之，真正建立一个案例，当你晚上睡眠不足时，你会产生男性多吃或女性不停止进食的生理信号，从而导致更多的食物摄入量，这也可能受到由于睡眠不足而更大程度激活的愉悦中心的影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing.
太棒了。
This sex-specific split in the data, if I have it correctly, that when men are sleep deprived, so getting four hours per night-
如果我没记错的话，数据中的性别差异表明，当男性睡眠不足时，每晚睡眠四个小时——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the signals that drive appetitive desire to eat are higher.
激发食欲的信号更高。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In women, it's more that the brake on eating, on satiety, is reduced.
对于女性来说，更多的是减少了对进食和饱腹感的抑制。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
As far as I know, the GLP pathways are not divergent by sex, but of course, I'm not deeply versed in that literature.
据我所知，GLP 途径并没有因性别而有所不同，但当然，我并不精通该文献。
Is there any evidence that GLPs are functioning different in men and women, circadian-wise or anything like that?
是否有任何证据表明 GLP 在男性和女性中的功能存在差异（昼夜节律或类似情况）？
Or this was just a fortuitous outcome-
或者这只是一个偶然的结果——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or I should say, a incidental outcome?
或者我应该说，这是一个偶然的结果？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
This was an incidental outcome.
这是一个偶然的结果。
We really didn't know what to expect.
我们真的不知道会发生什么。
We didn't really know at all that we'd see sex differences.
我们根本不知道我们会看到性别差异。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Because there had been prior studies, and prior studies had shown that ghrelin was increased as a result of sleep restriction.
因为之前有研究表明，睡眠限制会导致胃饥饿素增加。
They also showed that leptin was reduced as a result of sleep restriction.
他们还表明，睡眠限制导致瘦素减少。
And when we got our data, we analyzed our data with all of our participants together.
当我们获得数据时，我们与所有参与者一起分析了我们的数据。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
And there was no effect.
而且没有任何效果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
And that was surprising, and people would say, "Don't you know?
这令人惊讶，人们会说：“你不知道吗？
Don't you know?
你不知道吗？
Sleep restriction increases ghrelin." It's like, well, I guess I don't know, because in our study, it doesn't.
睡眠限制会增加胃饥饿素。”就像，嗯，我想我不知道，因为在我们的研究中，它不知道。
But then we saw these sex-specific differences, and it made sense then that in the full sample, when we had an equal number of men and women, we saw no effect on ghrelin because there was no effect in women, but there was an effect in men, which was reproducing what others had found because all the prior studies had been done in men only.
但后来我们看到了这些性别特异性的差异，这是有道理的，在完整的样本中，当我们有相同数量的男性和女性时，我们没有看到胃饥饿素有影响，因为对女性没有影响，但对男性有影响，这再现了其他人的发现，因为所有先前的研究都只在男性中进行。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break to acknowledge one of our sponsors, David.
我想稍微休息一下，向我们的赞助商之一大卫表示感谢。
David makes protein bars unlike any other.
大卫制作的蛋白质棒与众不同。
Their newest bar, the Bronze Bar, has 20 grams of protein, only 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar.
他们最新的 Bronze Bar 含有 20 克蛋白质，仅 150 卡路里，零克糖。
I have to say, these are the best-tasting protein bars I've ever had, and I've tried a lot of protein bars over the years.
我不得不说，这些是我吃过的味道最好的蛋白质棒，这些年来我尝试过很多蛋白质棒。
These new David bars have a marshmallow base, and they're covered in chocolate coating, and they're absolutely incredible.
这些新的大卫巧克力棒有一个棉花糖底座，上面覆盖着巧克力涂层，它们绝对令人难以置信。
I, of course, eat regular whole foods.
当然，我经常吃天然食品。
I eat meat, chicken, fish, eggs, fruits, vegetables, et cetera.
我吃肉、鸡肉、鱼、鸡蛋、水果、蔬菜等等。
But I also make it a point to eat one or two David bars per day as a snack, which makes it easy to hit my protein goal of one gram of protein per pound of body weight.
但我也强调每天吃一两块大卫棒作为零食，这样很容易达到我每磅体重一克蛋白质的蛋白质目标。
And that allows me to take in the protein I need without consuming excess calories.
这使我能够摄入所需的蛋白质，而不会消耗过多的热量。
I love all the David Bronze Bar flavors, including Cookie Dough, Caramel Chocolate, Double Chocolate, Peanut Butter Chocolate.
我喜欢大卫青铜棒的所有口味，包括饼干面团、焦糖巧克力、双重巧克力、花生酱巧克力。
They all actually taste like candy bars.
它们实际上尝起来都像棒棒糖。
Again, they're amazing.
再说一次，他们太棒了。
But again, they have no sugar, and they have 20 grams of protein with just 150 calories.
但同样，它们不含糖，并且含有 20 克蛋白质，只有 150 卡路里热量。
If you'd like to try David, you can go to davidprotein.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 David，可以访问 david Protein.com/huberman。
Right now, David is offering a deal where if you buy four cartons, you get the fifth carton for free.
现在，大卫正在提供一项优惠，如果您购买四箱，您可以免费获得第五箱。
You can also find David on Amazon or in stores such as Target, Walmart, and Kroger.
您还可以在亚马逊或 Target、沃尔玛和克罗格等商店找到 David。
Again, to get the fifth carton for free, go to davidprotein.com/huberman.
同样，要免费获得第五箱，请访问 david Protein.com/huberman。
Today's episode is also brought to us by BetterHelp.
今天的节目也是由 BetterHelp 为我们带来的。
BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online.
BetterHelp 提供由持证治疗师完全在线进行的专业治疗。
Now, I've been doing therapy for a very long time, and I can tell you that it's a lot like physical workouts.
现在，我已经进行治疗很长时间了，我可以告诉你，这很像体育锻炼。
There are days when I want to do it, and there are days when I don't want to do it.
有想做的日子，也有不想做的日子。
But when I finish a therapy session, every single time, I come away feeling better and knowing that the time was well spent.
但当我完成一次治疗后，每一次，我都会感觉好多了，并且知道我的时间花得很值。
There's just so many benefits that come through effective therapy.
通过有效的治疗可以带来很多好处。
Now, with BetterHelp, they make it very easy to find an expert therapist who can help provide the benefits that come from effective therapy.
现在，通过 BetterHelp，他们可以轻松找到可以帮助提供有效治疗带来的好处的专家治疗师。
You fill out a short questionnaire to match you to a therapist, and while BetterHelp has an industry-leading match rate, if you aren't happy with your match, you can switch to a different therapist at any time.
您填写一份简短的调查问卷来为您匹配治疗师，虽然 BetterHelp 拥有行业领先的匹配率，但如果您对匹配不满意，您可以随时更换为其他治疗师。
And it works.
它有效。
BetterHelp has an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for its live sessions based on over 1.7 million client reviews.
根据超过 170 万条客户评论，BetterHelp 的现场会议平均评分为 4.9 分（满分 5 分）。
If you would like to try BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month.
如果您想尝试 BetterHelp，请访问 betterhelp.com/huberman，第一个月可享受 10% 的折扣。
Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman.
再说一次，这是 betterhelp.com/huberman。
Whenever I'm sleep deprived, four or five hours of sleep, I consider sleep deprived.
每当我睡眠不足时，睡四五个小时，我就认为睡眠不足。
I used to pull all-nighters years ago.
几年前我曾经熬夜。
Now I avoid them at all costs.
现在我不惜一切代价避开它们。
But whenever I have that experience, I feel like my whole body, to some extent, is in a low level of pain.
但每当我有这种经历时，我就感觉我的整个身体在某种程度上处于轻微的疼痛状态。
So it's like central ache.
所以这就像中枢性疼痛。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I wonder extent to which people eat to overcome, to quell the pain of sleep deprivation.
我想知道人们在多大程度上通过饮食来克服、平息睡眠不足带来的痛苦。
Maybe people react differently to sleep deprivation.
也许人们对睡眠不足的反应不同。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe their subjective experience of it is very different.
也许他们的主观体验是非常不同的。
But what do you think is happening in that relatively short amount of sleep that's missing?
但你认为在相对较短的睡眠时间中会发生什么？
What is getting reset?
什么正在重置？
Is it neural?
是神经病吗？
Is it endocrine?
是内分泌的吗？
It's obviously all those things, but what do you think is the switch that allows people to enter a day in a much more healthy fashion or essentially in a slightly sick fashion?
显然是所有这些事情，但你认为让人们以更健康的方式或本质上以轻微生病的方式进入新的一天的转变是什么？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
In our study, it was actually a 50% reduction in sleep, because when they had nine hours sleep opportunity, they slept around seven and a half.
在我们的研究中，这实际上是睡眠时间减少了 50%，因为当他们有九个小时的睡眠机会时，他们睡了大约七个半小时。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
They were all people who we had screened to sleep at least seven, measured by actigraphy.
我们对他们进行了筛查，通过体动记录仪对他们进行了至少七次睡眠的筛查。
And on average, they get seven and a half.
平均而言，他们得到七个半。
And in the sleep restricted condition, they got on average about three hours and 50 minutes.
在睡眠受限的情况下，他们的平均睡眠时间约为 3 小时 50 分钟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So that's like staying up late working on a deadline, then trying to catch an early flight.
这就像在最后期限前熬夜工作，然后试图赶早班飞机一样。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's pretty brutal.
这是相当残酷的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
It's pretty brutal.
这是相当残酷的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
And that was maintained.
这一点得到了维持。
They had five nights of that.
他们这样度过了五个晚上。
So that-
那么——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Five nights of that.
就这样过了五个晚上。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
But-
但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Were they coming unglued mentally, too?
他们在精神上也脱节了吗？
I think I would feel terrible after that kind of stretch.
我想在那样的伸展之后我会感觉很糟糕。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
At the end, they were done.
最后，他们完成了。
There was no way anyone would want to keep coming for that.
没有人愿意继续为此而来。
But they were in the lab.
但他们在实验室里。
They were under supervision the whole time.
他们自始至终都受到监视。
We didn't let them go out on their own.
我们没有让他们单独出去。
So they were well supervised, made sure that nothing would happen to them.
所以他们受到很好的监督，确保他们不会发生任何事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No naps?
没有小睡吗？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
No naps.
没有小睡。
No. But so what happens is, I think there's some subconscious need to eat more when you're sleep deprived.
不。但实际情况是，我认为当你睡眠不足时，你的潜意识里会需要吃更多东西。
There's a thermic effect of food, right?
食物有热效应，对吗？
So it gives you a jolt of energy to eat something.
所以吃东西会给你带来能量。
So people know that.
所以人们都知道这一点。
You eat, it wakes you up in a way.
你吃东西，它会以某种方式唤醒你。
Neuronal signaling that enhances pleasurable and reward centers of the brain, where when also fatigue sets in and now it's like, do you really want to have this conversation with yourself about what to choose at the buffet table?
神经元信号可以增强大脑的愉悦和奖励中心，当疲劳出现时，你真的想在自助餐桌上与自己进行对话吗？
There's fatigue.
有疲劳。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
And others have shown also that sleepiness tends to correlate with all of this.
其他人也表明，困倦往往与所有这些相关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
That there's these triggers for more pleasurable food consumption with the sleep restriction.
在睡眠限制的情况下，有这些触发因素可以让我们更愉快地进食。
And it's been reproduced.
并且已经被转载了。
There's been so many studies.
已经有很多研究了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
And they all agree to the extent of overeating.
他们都同意暴饮暴食的程度。
A meta-analysis showed 250 to 400 calories of overeating.
一项荟萃分析显示，暴饮暴食会导致 250 至 400 卡路里的热量摄入。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which might not sound like much, but when you start layering that in day after day, and you think 3,500 excess calories, more or less, for a pound of body weight, and when people accumulate that over time-
这听起来可能不多，但是当你开始日复一日地分层时，你会想到每磅体重或多或少有 3,500 卡路里的多余热量，并且随着时间的推移，人们会积累这些热量——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
if they're in a night shift condition, or new parents, or tending to a sick relative, or just final exams, it's a real thing.
如果他们正在上夜班，或者刚为人父母，或者照顾生病的亲戚，或者只是期末考试，那么这都是真实存在的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
It's a real thing.
这是真实的事情。
Neema Kovesan in 2022 published a paper where they had sleep restriction about five hours per night versus seven and a half hours per night for two weeks, and participants gained half a kilo in a two-week period.
Neema Kovesan 于 2022 年发表了一篇论文，其中他们在两周内每晚限制睡眠约 5 小时，而每晚睡眠限制为 7 个半小时，参与者在两周内体重增加了半公斤。
So you do nothing, and you just sleep less and gain almost a pound in two weeks.
所以你什么都不做，只是睡得更少，两周内体重几乎增加了一磅。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It strikes me that for a long time in the stress research, the idea was when people are stressed, they reach for "comfort foods."
让我印象深刻的是，长期以来，在压力研究中，人们的想法是，当人们有压力时，他们会寻求“安慰食物”。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Carbohydrate, and typically starch, fat, starch, fat, sugar combination foods to comfort them, and the just so story was always that, okay, well, cortisol's main role is to deploy glucose, and so people are doing this as a way to bring excess energy, and it all kind of fits together.
碳水化合物，通常是淀粉、脂肪、淀粉、脂肪、糖的组合食物来安慰他们，故事总是这样的，好吧，皮质醇的主要作用是利用葡萄糖，所以人们这样做是为了带来多余的能量，而且这一切都是相互契合的。
What is the relationship between these forms of sleep deprivation that you work on and stress?
您所处理的这些睡眠剥夺形式与压力之间有什么关系？
Is it really a way of, I'm not saying just inducing stress, because I think sleep is its own thing-
这真的是一种方式吗，我并不是说只是引发压力，因为我认为睡眠本身就是一种方式——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but it's stressful just to be less than adequately rested, independent of the things coming at you in life.
但如果没有得到充分的休息，不顾生活中发生的事情，就会带来压力。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Is what you're studying stress?
你研究的是压力吗？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
So if you're thinking about physiological stress measured by cortisol levels, in that study, actually, cortisol wasn't changed.
因此，如果您正在考虑通过皮质醇水平测量的生理压力，那么实际上，在那项研究中，皮质醇并未发生变化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In the short sleep?
在短暂的睡眠中？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
In the short sleep.
在短暂的睡眠中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Tell me more about that.
告诉我更多相关信息。
I'm fascinated by circadian rhythms and cortisol.
我对昼夜节律和皮质醇着迷。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what does that mean?
那么这意味着什么呢？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
There was no difference between the two conditions, adequate sleep or short sleep on cortisol levels in our-
在我们的皮质醇水平上，充足睡眠或短时间睡眠这两种情况之间没有差异。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For five days of sleep restriction-
五天的睡眠限制-
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
For five days
五天
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
at basically four hours a night.
基本上每晚四个小时。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So cortisol's still peaking in the morning-
所以皮质醇在早上仍然达到峰值-
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
still dropping in the evening.
晚上还在下降。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
That's very surprising to me.
这让我非常惊讶。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't know if it's the context of being in a lab where everything's safe, taken care of for them.
我不知道这是否是在实验室里的环境，那里一切都很安全，都得到了照顾。
There's nothing outside to aggravate this.
外面没有什么可以加剧这种情况。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
So I don't know.
所以我不知道。
Maybe when you're in the context of sleep restriction, but also dealing with Your daily life-
也许当你在睡眠受限的情况下，还要处理你的日常生活时——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
you're needing to take care of your kids, needing to get to work, needing to do all the activities of daily living, maybe then that becomes the added stressful event.
你需要照顾你的孩子，需要去工作，需要做所有的日常生活活动，也许这会成为额外的压力事件。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the message is, if you suffer less than adequate sleep, get someone to take care of everything else.
因此，我们要传达的信息是，如果您睡眠不足，请找人来处理其他事情。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
You better be in a spa .
你最好去水疗中心。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You better be in a spa.
你最好去水疗中心。
Exactly.
确切地。
No, and I'm not challenging the result, I just find it really interesting.
不，我并不是在挑战这个结果，我只是觉得它真的很有趣。
I would've thought that basal cortisol levels would go awry.
我本以为基础皮质醇水平会出现问题。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Well, in that study also, we didn't see any effect on glucose or insulin.
嗯，在那项研究中，我们也没有看到对葡萄糖或胰岛素有任何影响。
Nothing.
没有什么。
The curves were superimposable.
曲线是可叠加的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wild.
狂野。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
They were eating the exact same food at the exact same time, exact same quantity.
他们在完全相同的时间、完全相同的数量吃完全相同的食物。
The only thing we changed was the amount of sleep opportunity they got at night.
我们唯一改变的是他们晚上的睡眠机会。
So to me, this means that it's a combination of different things that causes the metabolic abnormalities that we notice in free-living populations.
所以对我来说，这意味着它是不同因素的结合，导致了我们在自由生活的人群中注意到的代谢异常。
People aren't isolated.
人们并不孤立。
They're not in a box where they're not sleeping enough and they're choosing to eat higher fat, higher sugar, higher salt, poorer diet.
他们不会被关在睡眠不足的盒子里，而是选择吃更高脂肪、更高糖、更高盐、更差的饮食。
That then triggers a worsening and may be compounded by the lack of sleep, even worsening of those cardiometabolic outcomes.
然后，这会引发病情恶化，并可能因睡眠不足而加剧，甚至导致心脏代谢结果恶化。
Because we did a follow-up study to this severe sleep restriction study.
因为我们对这项严格的睡眠限制研究进行了后续研究。
So the reason why we did that was because exactly for this reason, because we did not find any adverse impact on glucose or insulin or lipid profile.
所以我们这样做的原因正是因为这个原因，因为我们没有发现对葡萄糖或胰岛素或脂质谱有任何不利影响。
And we're like, "Well, so what is it then?
我们会说，“那么，那又是什么呢？
Why is it that in population-based studies, we find that people who sleep too little have higher risk of cardiovascular disease, higher risk of hypertension, higher blood pressure, higher risk of type 2 diabetes?" So because we had seen that food choices were different, that they ate a diet that was higher in calories, higher in fat and saturated fat, we thought maybe if you're in a free-living situation, that's when you start to see those cardiometabolic outcomes because it's compounded by maybe more sedentary behavior and alterations in food choices and diet.
为什么在基于人群的研究中，我们发现睡眠过少的人患心血管疾病的风险更高，患高血压的风险更高，血压更高，患 2 型糖尿病的风险更高？”因此，因为我们发现食物选择不同，他们的饮食热量、脂肪和饱和脂肪含量更高，所以我们想，也许如果你处于自由生活的情况下，那就是你开始看到这些心脏代谢结果的时候，因为它可能是由更多的久坐行为和食物选择和饮食的改变。
So the follow-up study then was to recruit good sleepers, people who sleep at least seven hours per night, verified by actigraphy, who answer on questionnaires that their sleep quality is good, and then to take these people and say, "Okay, now you're either going to continue your excellent sleep, or you're going to now go to bed an hour and a half later so that you get an hour and a half reduction in sleep." Because when we screen people to sleep at least seven hours per night, they sleep about seven and a half, and reducing by an hour and a half gets to six hours, which is short sleep, insufficient, on average what people who don't get enough sleep get.
因此，后续研究是招募睡眠质量好的人，即每晚至少睡七个小时的人，通过体动记录仪进行验证，并在问卷中回答他们的睡眠质量良好，然后对这些人说：“好吧，现在你要么继续保持良好的睡眠，要么晚一个半小时上床睡觉，这样你的睡眠时间就会减少一个半小时。”因为当我们筛选人们每晚至少睡七个小时时，他们的睡眠时间约为七个半小时，减少一个半小时就达到六个小时，这是睡眠时间短、睡眠不足的睡眠不足的人的平均睡眠时间。
And-
还有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're missing a full sleep cycle.
他们错过了一个完整的睡眠周期。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Pretty much.
差不多了。
And they can sustain that for prolonged periods because that's what people report in population-based studies.
他们可以长时间维持这种情况，因为这是人们在基于人群的研究中报告的结果。
And now when we did that, we saw that insulin resistance was increased after six weeks of sleep restriction compared to adequate sleep.
现在，当我们这样做时，我们发现与充足的睡眠相比，六周的睡眠限制后胰岛素抵抗会增加。
We saw insulin sensitivity was reduced.
我们看到胰岛素敏感性降低。
It was worse actually in post-menopausal women compared to pre-menopausal women.
与绝经前女性相比，绝经后女性的情况实际上更糟。
We saw blood pressure was increased.
我们看到血压升高。
So those cardiometabolic outcomes were adversely impacted in free-living, mild, sustained sleep restriction for six weeks.
因此，在六周的自由生活、轻度、持续睡眠限制中，这些心脏代谢结果受到了不利影响。
Six weeks was something else also.
六周也是另一回事。
It was tough.
这很艰难。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I can only imagine.
我只能想象。
Wow, okay.
哇，好吧。
Because my mind always goes to, all right, well, we wake up in the morning because of an increase in cortisol.
因为我的脑子总是想，好吧，好吧，我们早上醒来是因为皮质醇的增加。
That's circadian.
这就是昼夜节律。
It's not related to sleep per se.
这与睡眠本身无关。
It just kind of overlaps with the end of the night's sleep.
它只是与夜间睡眠结束时重叠。
If that's independent of sleep and cortisol drives glucose release, we know this.
如果这与睡眠无关并且皮质醇驱动葡萄糖释放，我们就知道这一点。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
At least in the first study you described, glucose levels weren't altered.
至少在您描述的第一项研究中，血糖水平没有改变。
You said it was isocaloric, so people were-
你说它是等热量的，所以人们-
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's not like they're eating more.
这并不是说他们吃得更多。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The hormones that are driving the desire to eat more are elevated.
促使多吃的欲望的荷尔蒙升高。
The hor-
霍-
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
But we didn't let them eat more.
但我们没有让他们多吃。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But you didn't let them.
但你没有让他们这么做。
I think that's a key thing that you pointed out before, but I think we want to underscore.
我认为这是您之前指出的一个关键问题，但我认为我们想强调这一点。
And then, of course, the GLP levels in women being reduced.
当然，女性的 GLP 水平也会降低。
It's not that then they were able to eat, as we say, ad libitum, and then they happen to eat more.
并不是说他们能够像我们所说的那样随意吃东西，然后他们碰巧吃得更多。
But they gained weight.
但他们的体重却增加了。
So what's the action end of things that causes them to gain weight if they're basically in an isocaloric diet?
那么，如果他们基本上采用等热量饮食，那么导致他们体重增加的原因是什么？
And I have an idea what it might be, but I'm curious what the answer is.
我知道它可能是什么，但我很好奇答案是什么。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yes, I think they're more sedentary.
是的，我认为他们更久坐。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
During the day.
白天。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
During the day.
白天。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Less spontaneous activity.
自发活动较少。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Right.
对。
Less spontaneous activity.
自发活动较少。
Because we also did a study to look at energy expenditure.
因为我们还做了一项研究来了解能量消耗。
That's really difficult, actually, to measure, in my opinion, energy expenditure.
在我看来，实际上测量能量消耗确实很困难。
There's multiple components to energy expenditure.
能量消耗有多个组成部分。
But we did a study where, this was a small study, we enrolled only women for that, and we have a metabolic chamber at Columbia that we were able to use for this.
但我们做了一项研究，这是一项小型研究，我们只招募了女性，而且我们在哥伦比亚有一个代谢室，我们可以用它来进行这项研究。
So this small room in which we keep people, and we measure minute-by-minute oxygen consumption and carbon dioxide production.
所以我们把人关在这个小房间里，我们测量每分钟的氧气消耗量和二氧化碳产生量。
And we were able to show that energy expenditure is actually increased in the context of sleep restriction in the metabolic chamber because it's more costly energetically to remain awake than to fall asleep.
我们能够证明，在代谢室睡眠限制的情况下，能量消耗实际上会增加，因为保持清醒比入睡需要消耗更多的能量。
So energy expenditure when participants were awake was identical In both conditions, regardless of how much sleep they got the night before
因此，无论参与者前一天晚上睡了多少，在这两种情况下，参与者清醒时的能量消耗都是相同的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's fidgeting, movement, because we've talked before on this podcast about the non-exercise induced-
所以这是坐立不安、运动，因为我们之前在这个播客上讨论过非运动引起的——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
thermogenesis.
生热作用。
And it's a big number.
这是一个很大的数字。
People who fidget a lot bounce their knee a lot.
经常坐立不安的人膝盖会经常弹动。
Sometimes these people are burning 1,500 calories more per day, and everyone goes, "Oh my god, how could that possibly be?" But-
有时这些人每天多燃烧 1,500 卡路里，每个人都会说：“天啊，这怎么可能？”但是——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
It's a lot
很多
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that's a lot.
就这么多了。
That's at the extreme.
这是极端的情况。
But it is kind of interesting to observe people out in the world.
但观察世界上的人们是很有趣的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you sometimes see that people who are very, very lean, very, let's just say thin and lean, nowadays who knows because of the GLPs, et cetera, but they tend to have a lot of spontaneous movement.
有时你会看到那些非常非常瘦的人，非常，我们就说瘦瘦的，现在谁知道是因为 GLP 等等，但他们往往有很多自发的运动。
They tend to stand up quickly.
他们往往会很快站起来。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They tend to walk quickly.
他们往往走得很快。
Well, you're from New York, so everyone there walks- ...
好吧，你来自纽约，所以那里的每个人都步行-...
faster than out here.
比这里还快。
But it's a real thing.
但这是真实的事情。
Whereas some people, like me, are kind of more middle of the curve.
而有些人，比如我，则处于曲线的中间位置。
I sit-
我坐着——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a bit more still, unless I'm very caffeinated.
再多一点，除非我咖啡因太多。
These things add up over-
这些东西加起来超过——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
time in ways that I think most people underestimate.
我认为大多数人都低估了时间。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
So for us, it was about 5% of energy increased.
所以对我们来说，大约增加了 5% 的能量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
And it ended up being about 90 calories, nowhere close to the 300 calories-
最终它的热量约为 90 卡路里，远低于 300 卡路里——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
that more of intake-
更多的摄入量-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
they had got over a day in the prior study.
他们在之前的研究中花了一天多的时间。
So it's still an imbalance towards a positive energy balance when we do the math, but there is an increase in energy expenditure, again, in the confines of a metabolic chamber, which for most people is equivalent of the size of their bathroom.
因此，当我们进行数学计算时，它仍然是朝着正能量平衡的不平衡，但是在代谢室的范围内，能量消耗再次增加，对于大多数人来说，这相当于他们浴室的大小。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Right?
对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Where you have a bed, a table, and a sink.
那里有一张床、一张桌子和一个水槽。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
A toilet.
一个厕所。
That's it.
就是这样。
So you can't do much in there.
所以你不能在那里做太多事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But you can do studies, quote unquote, "out in the wild" with actometry or what or-
但你可以做研究，引用不引用，“在野外”用测力法或什么或-
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Actigraphy, W = water.
体动记录仪，W = 水。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Actigraphy, excuse me.
体动记录仪，对不起。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A little while ago, I saw a study that said that if you are one night sleep deprived, like you get one or two hours less sleep than normally you would get to feel rested, that it's actually advantageous to exercise because it offsets some of the increase in inflammation.
不久前，我看到一项研究说，如果你一晚睡眠不足，比如你比平常少睡一两个小时，你就会感到休息好，运动实际上是有利的，因为它可以抵消一些炎症的增加。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But then if you're going multiple nights that way, exercising on a regular basis when sleep deprived, it just sets up a susceptibility to illness, susceptibility to injury, and so forth.
但如果你连续几个晚上都这样，在睡眠不足的情况下定期锻炼，只会让你更容易生病、受伤等等。
How much of what you observe under the conditions of sleep deprivation do you think are downstream or upstream of this thing that we just call inflammation?
您认为在睡眠不足的情况下观察到的有多少是我们称之为炎症的下游或上游？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because it's just like a body-wide response, and there are a bunch of things that have gone awry, and so a bunch of systems are dysregulated.
因为这就像全身反应一样，有很多事情出了问题，所以很多系统都失调了。
Or can we pinpoint, okay, when you're sleep deprived, this is what's happening?
或者我们可以确定，好吧，当你睡眠不足时，这就是发生的情况？
Because I think if women knew that their GLPs were down-
因为我认为如果女性知道她们的 GLP 下降了——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
when they're down on sleep, so that they should expect that they would feel less satiety.
当他们睡眠不足时，他们应该会感到不那么饱足。
If men knew that their ghrelin levels were elevated when they're down on sleep, that they're going to feel hungrier.
如果男性知道他们的生长素释放肽水平在睡眠不足时会升高，那么他们就会感到更饥饿。
We have a pretty big prefrontal cortex-
我们有一个相当大的前额皮质——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
most people anyway, and we can intervene simply on the basis of knowledge.
无论如何，大多数人，我们可以简单地根据知识进行干预。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
I think that's what's empowering.
我认为这就是赋予力量的原因。
And I think about this sometimes too when I'm thinking about my diet at times, right?
当我有时考虑我的饮食时，我有时也会想到这一点，对吧？
I'm like, "Do I really want to eat this, or is it because I really didn't sleep last night?" Right?
我想，“我真的想吃这个，还是因为我昨晚真的没睡？”对吗？
So you can ask yourself these questions.
所以你可以问自己这些问题。
Take a pause and say, "Okay.
停顿一下然后说：“好吧。
Do I really want dessert, or is it just that I'm tired and I'm fine.
我真的想要甜点吗，还是只是因为我累了，我很好。
I don't need it."
我不需要它。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
So if you step back and think that maybe part of it is because you didn't sleep well the night before, then you can make the appropriate choices, right?
所以，如果你退一步想想，也许部分原因是因为你前一天晚上没睡好，那么你就可以做出适当的选择，对吧？
Say, "Okay.
说：“好吧。
I probably don't need the extra calories right now." Or maybe you say, "You know what?
我现在可能不需要额外的卡路里。”或者你可能会说，“你知道吗？
I had a really bad night last night, and those extra calories, I don't really care, because they're going to make me feel good, and I need some pick-me-up." But you know.
昨晚我度过了一个非常糟糕的夜晚，而那些额外的卡路里，我真的不在乎，因为它们会让我感觉良好，我需要一些提神剂。”但你知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
That's all the choice is to make, right?
这就是所有的选择，对吗？
Because mood comes into play as well, so.
因为情绪也会发挥作用，所以。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, ultimately, that brings us to the other direction of the equation, right?
好吧，最终，这将我们带到了等式的另一个方向，对吗？
How does what we eat impact our sleep?
我们吃的东西如何影响我们的睡眠？
This is something that I think most people have heard about in the context of try not to eat too close to bedtime.
我想大多数人都听说过这一点，即尽量不要在睡前吃东西。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is an active debate in many households, actually.
实际上，这是许多家庭中的一个激烈争论。
Some people seem to be fine eating close to bedtime and sleeping, and even if they track their sleep.
有些人似乎在接近就寝时间时进食和睡觉时表现得很好，即使他们记录了自己的睡眠情况。
Other people, it really disrupts their sleep.
其他人，这确实扰乱了他们的睡眠。
I'm interested in both the timing of food intake relative to sleep, but also the content of the food and how it impacts sleep.
我对相对于睡眠的食物摄入时间以及食物的含量及其对睡眠的影响感兴趣。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's known about that, either from your work or from other work?
从您的工作或其他工作中对此了解多少？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
When we started this conversation, I was telling you about these population-based studies, cross-sectional data where two things happen at the same time, and you don't really know causality.
当我们开始这次对话时，我告诉你这些基于人群的研究，两件事同时发生的横截面数据，而你并不真正了解因果关系。
They happen at the same time.
它们同时发生。
And I think early on in this field, we started thinking about sleep as the promoter of food intake or as sleep causing changes in diet, exercise, but didn't really think that maybe it's the other way around, or maybe the other way around is just as plausible.
我认为在这个领域的早期，我们开始将睡眠视为食物摄入的促进剂或睡眠导致饮食、锻炼的变化，但并没有真正认为也许是相反的方式，或者也许相反的方式同样合理。
So I started thinking about that and said, "Well, what if we took the other approach?
所以我开始思考这个问题并说：“好吧，如果我们采取另一种方法呢？
What if we looked at diet and examined how diet influenced future sleep?" And my first paper in this field was using data from the Multi-Ethnic Study of Atherosclerosis.
如果我们观察饮食并检查饮食如何影响未来的睡眠会怎么样？”我在该领域的第一篇论文使用了来自动脉粥样硬化多种族研究的数据。
It's actually kind of hard to find good cohorts that have good nutrition data, good sleep data, and data over years, right?
实际上很难找到拥有良好营养数据、良好睡眠数据和多年数据的优秀队列，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
So MESA, Multi-Ethnic Study of Atherosclerosis, is one of those great cohorts that we have here in the US that has all of the above.
因此，MESA（动脉粥样硬化多种族研究）是我们在美国拥有的拥有上述所有特征的优秀研究团队之一。
So I paired up with a colleague of mine, Susan Redline in Boston, and she's the principal investigator on their sleep ancillary study And we asked the question of diet quality and its impact on sleep duration, insomnia symptoms.
所以我和波士顿的一位同事苏珊·雷德莱恩（Susan Redline）配对，她是他们睡眠辅助研究的首席研究员。我们询问了饮食质量及其对睡眠持续时间和失眠症状的影响的问题。
And we found that having a diet that more closely aligns with the Mediterranean diet was associated with better probability of having adequate sleep and reduced insomnia symptoms in this cohort.
我们发现，在该人群中，饮食与地中海饮食更接近，与获得充足睡眠和减少失眠症状的可能性更大有关。
So then it launched a whole field of study, really, to keep looking at this, and we've looked at this in different studies and different cohorts.
因此，它启动了一个完整的研究领域，确实是为了继续研究这个问题，我们在不同的研究和不同的群体中研究了这个问题。
Actually, earlier this year, we published data from the Women's Health Initiative, another large cohort with good diet data and sleep information.
事实上，今年早些时候，我们发布了女性健康倡议的数据，这是另一个拥有良好饮食数据和睡眠信息的大型群体。
We took a really nice approach in this longitudinal analysis.
我们在纵向分析中采取了非常好的方法。
I don't know, usually when we do longitudinal studies, we exclude people who have the condition at baseline.
我不知道，通常当我们进行纵向研究时，我们会排除基线时患有这种疾病的人。
Right?
对吗？
So if you're trying to see this factor at baseline, how does it influence hypertension 10 years later, you usually exclude people who have hypertension at baseline because you want to see the development of hypertension.
因此，如果您想在基线时了解这个因素，它如何影响 10 年后的高血压，您通常会排除在基线时患有高血压的人，因为您想了解高血压的发展情况。
In this case, we were looking at insomnia symptoms, but insomnia is one of those conditions that's not necessarily static.
在本例中，我们研究的是失眠症状，但失眠是不一定是静态的症状之一。
It resolves, right?
就解决了，对吧？
So you can have insomnia and then a few years later not have insomnia, or you can not have insomnia now and develop insomnia.
所以你可以有失眠，几年后就不再失眠，或者你现在没有失眠，又发展成失眠。
So what we did is we broke down our participants into two groups, the people who had no insomnia at baseline and at three years follow-up.
因此，我们所做的是将参与者分为两组，即在基线和三年随访时没有失眠的人。
Participants who had insomnia at baseline but not at three years follow-up.
基线时有失眠症但三年随访后没有失眠的参与者。
So they were in the healthful sleep, improving sleep.
所以他们处于健康的睡眠中，改善睡眠。
And then the other group was all those women who had insomnia at baseline and at three years and no insomnia at baseline, but insomnia at three years.
另一组是所有在基线和三年时失眠以及基线时没有失眠但三年时失眠的女性。
So they were the persistent insomnia progressing towards poor sleep group.
所以他们是持续性失眠向睡眠不良进展的群体。
And we found that the women who had a diet that was more closely aligned to the Mediterranean diet, but we also looked at an American type of diet profile called the DASH diet, the Dietary Approaches to Stop Hypertension.
我们发现这些女性的饮食更接近地中海饮食，但我们也研究了一种称为 DASH 饮食的美国饮食方案，即控制高血压的饮食方法。
Women who had a dietary profile closer to those two types of diets, healthful diets, were less likely to have insomnia at three years.
饮食结构接近这两种饮食（健康饮食）的女性三年后失眠的可能性较小。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the DASH diet is what?
而DASH饮食又是什么？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Dietary Approaches to Stop Hypertension was developed to prevent hypertension and reduce blood pressure in people by increasing intakes of fruits and vegetables, nuts and seeds, consuming low-fat dairy, more plant-based types of diet, and has been tested in a low salt or regular salt profile.
预防高血压的饮食方法旨在通过增加水果和蔬菜、坚果和种子的摄入量、食用低脂乳制品、更多植物性饮食来预防高血压和降低血压，并已在低盐或常规盐含量下进行了测试。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How did those work out?
这些结果如何？
I'm just curious.
我只是好奇。
Do you recall if the low salt, high salt condition-
你还记得低盐、高盐的情况吗——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
There is salt sensitivity, so there are some people who are very sensitive to salt, and so having a reduced salt diet will really improve their blood pressure.
有盐敏感性，所以有一些人对盐非常敏感，所以减少盐饮食确实会改善他们的血压。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Others, not so much.
其他人则没有那么多。
But the DASH diet, regardless of its salt content, did better than the equivalent non-DASH.
但无论盐含量如何，DASH 饮食的效果都比同等的非 DASH 饮食要好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Which would be your average American diet.
这就是你的美国人的平均饮食习惯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Whatever that is.
不管那是什么。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah, higher in saturated fat and sugars and-
是的，饱和脂肪和糖含量更高，而且-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which seems to be changing now because of the GLPs.
由于 GLP，这种情况现在似乎正在改变。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I feel like maybe that's a skewed perspective, but I feel like the typical American diet is it might not be changing so much in content, but in volume, it seems like people are eating less.
我觉得这可能是一个倾斜的观点，但我觉得典型的美国饮食在内容上可能没有太大变化，但在数量上，人们似乎吃得更少了。
Certainly, the snack food companies, from what I understand, are struggling.
当然，据我了解，休闲食品公司正在苦苦挣扎。
Alcohol companies, that's a different issue, but they certainly have sales are way, way down.
酒精公司，这是一个不同的问题，但他们的销售额肯定大幅下降。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it just seems like people's appetites are down.
但人们的胃口似乎下降了。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Well, GLP-1s will do that, right?
那么，GLP-1 就能做到这一点，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we were talking about this the other day here, how many Americans have tried a GLP?
前几天我们在这里讨论过这个问题，有多少美国人尝试过 GLP？
The estimates are anywhere from one in seven.
估计值是七分之一左右。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Oh, wow.
哦，哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some people say it's more.
有人说多了。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is pretty incredible.
这真是令人难以置信。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah, it's pretty high.
是的，相当高。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But this is interesting.
但这很有趣。
So how people eat impacts their sleep.
因此，人们的饮食方式会影响他们的睡眠。
I'm sure the listeners and I also am thinking, okay, but people who are eating a Mediterranean diet, right, olive oils, fish, fruits, vegetables, they are probably more apt to walk more, exercise more, socialize more.
我相信听众和我也在想，好吧，但是吃地中海饮食的人，对吧，橄榄油，鱼，水果，蔬菜，他们可能更倾向于多走路，多锻炼，多社交。
How do you separate out the variables in a study like that?
如何在这样的研究中分离出变量？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Well, so in population-based studies, we adjust for a bunch of covariates, right?
那么，在基于人群的研究中，我们会调整一堆协变量，对吧？
We have all these questionnaires that are given out to people asking them about their race, occupation, sociodemographic, socioeconomic status, and then we adjust for different illnesses that they may have, depression, physical activity level.
我们向人们发放了所有这些调查问卷，询问他们的种族、职业、社会人口统计、社会经济地位，然后我们根据他们可能患有的不同疾病、抑郁症、体力活动水平进行调整。
So we try to take all this into consideration.
所以我们尝试考虑所有这些。
Obviously, there's always unmeasured factors that you can't control for.
显然，总有一些无法衡量的因素是您无法控制的。
Social interactions like you-
像你这样的社交互动 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
you mentioned, it's usually not captured very well.
你提到的，它通常没有被很好地捕捉到。
It's not something that we can adjust for.
这不是我们可以调整的。
But one thing that we did in my lab, going back to that original study, was to look at how diet influenced sleep at night in the participants in our inpatient study.
但我们在实验室做的一件事，回到最初的研究，是观察饮食如何影响住院研究参与者的夜间睡眠。
So we took the nine-hour time in bed opportunity phase, only that one.
所以我们只选择了九个小时的床上机会阶段。
In the four-hour time in bed opportunity, participants were very efficient.
在四个小时的床上时间里，参与者的效率非常高。
There was not much variability in sleep duration in that phase.
该阶段的睡眠持续时间没有太大变化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
They slept as much as they could in that four-hour opportunity.
在那四个小时的时间里，他们尽可能多地睡觉。
But in the nine hours, there was variability there.
但在这九个小时里，情况发生了变化。
Some people got more or less.
有些人得到的或多或少。
So we wanted to see if food intake was related to their sleep at night.
所以我们想看看食物摄入量是否与他们晚上的睡眠有关。
That study, we had polysomnography assessments of sleep every single night.
在那项研究中，我们每晚都对睡眠进行多导睡眠图评估。
Like I mentioned, we had a controlled diet initially, and then we let them self-select their food intake.
就像我提到的，我们最初控制饮食，然后让他们自行选择食物摄入量。
So we took a very systematic approach to evaluating how diet could influence sleep in that study.
因此，我们在该研究中采取了非常系统的方法来评估饮食如何影响睡眠。
We said, first of all, was the diet that they chose different than the diet that we gave them?
我们说，首先，他们选择的饮食与我们给他们的饮食不同吗？
First step, right?
第一步，对吗？
It was.
是的。
So they ate almost 450 calories more, they ate 33% more saturated fat, a little less protein, I believe, a little more carbohydrates.
所以他们多吃了近 450 卡路里，多吃了 33% 的饱和脂肪，我相信蛋白质少了一点，碳水化合物多了一点。
Not much, but it was different.
不多，但有所不同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
So like okay, so there's difference between the diets.
好吧，饮食之间存在差异。
Okay now, was their sleep at night different when they were eating the diet that we fed them compared to what they self-selected?
好吧，现在，当他们吃我们喂养的饮食和他们自己选择的饮食时，他们晚上的睡眠是否有所不同？
And it was different.
但情况有所不同。
It wasn't different in terms of duration, but it was different in time it took them to fall asleep, which was over 70% longer to fall asleep when they self-selected their diet.
持续时间没有什么不同，但他们入睡所需的时间不同，当他们自行选择饮食时，入睡时间要长 70% 以上。
And their slow-wave sleep, so deep sleep, was shorter.
他们的慢波睡眠，即深度睡眠，也更短。
I think it was about 23, 20% shorter, when they self-selected their diet compared to what we had given them.
我认为，当他们自行选择饮食时，与我们给他们的饮食相比，时间缩短了 23% 至 20%。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Was timing of food intake impacted?
进食时间是否受到影响？
Because when I think of what impacts, what reduces slow-wave deep sleep, it's eating too close to bedtime.
因为当我想到什么会影响、什么会减少慢波深度睡眠时，我会想到是在睡前吃东西太近。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
So we did not take that into consideration in that study.
所以我们在那项研究中没有考虑到这一点。
We didn't look at that.
我们没有看那个。
We had their food intake profile and didn't specifically look in that phase, when was their last eating period.
我们了解了他们的食物摄入量，但没有特别关注那个阶段，即他们最后一次进食的时间。
But it could've been different than in the controlled feeding condition because in the controlled feeding condition, they had set meals at specific times, but they all went to bed at 10:00 P.M.
但这可能与控制喂养条件下有所不同，因为在控制喂养条件下，他们在特定时间定了餐，但他们都在晚上 10:00 上床睡觉。
Then the other question was, okay, what was it that they ate that day that impacted how they slept that night?
那么另一个问题是，好吧，他们那天吃的是什么影响了他们当晚的睡眠？
And we found that higher intakes of fiber were associated with more deep sleep, higher intakes of saturated fat, less deep sleep, and then more refined carbohydrates, simple sugars, more arousals.
我们发现，纤维摄入量越高，深度睡眠越深，饱和脂肪摄入量越高，深度睡眠越少，然后是精制碳水化合物、单糖越多，兴奋程度越高。
So when we talk about arousals in the context of polysomnography, it doesn't necessarily mean full on waking up or awakening.
因此，当我们在多导睡眠图的背景下谈论唤醒时，它并不一定意味着完全醒来或觉醒。
It really means going from a deeper to a lighter stage of sleep, so you may still be asleep throughout the night, but you're not getting deep, slow-wave sleep, REM sleep as much as you would otherwise.
这实际上意味着从较深的睡眠阶段进入较浅的睡眠阶段，因此您可能整夜仍在睡觉，但您不会像其他情况那样获得深度、慢波睡眠、快速眼动睡眠。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you create a buffer between your last bite of food and the time you go to sleep, you personally?
就你个人而言，你是否在最后一口食物和睡觉之间建立了一个缓冲期？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Me personally?
我个人？
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is it an hour, two hours, three hours?
是一个小时、两个小时还是三个小时？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
I personally like to eat my last meal at least three hours before going to bed.
我个人喜欢在睡觉前至少三个小时吃最后一顿饭。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
And I know there's variability there.
我知道那里存在变化。
Different people have different tolerance.
不同的人有不同的耐受力。
You mentioned right before that-
你之前提到过——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
you know, some people may be later chronotypes.
你知道，有些人可能是较晚的时间型。
But what we know is that eating earlier is better overall.
但我们知道，总体而言，早吃效果更好。
For cardiometabolic health, eating earlier is better.
为了心脏代谢健康，早点吃饭更好。
Me personally, I feel better by eating earlier.
就我个人而言，早点吃饭我感觉更好。
If I eat too close to bedtime, I get hot.
如果我吃东西太靠近睡觉时间，我会感到很热。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
It's the-
这是——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
I'm not sleeping
我没有睡觉
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
thermic effect of food.
食物的热效应。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
It's the thermic effect of food.
这是食物的热效应。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we want to be cooling off when we go to sleep.
当我们入睡时，我们想要冷静下来。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Exactly.
确切地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。
AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens.
AG1 是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮料，还包含益生元和适应原。
I discovered AG1 way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since.
我早在 2012 年就发现了 AG1，那时我还没有播客，从那时起我就每天都在服用它。
The reason I started taking AG1, and the reason I still take it every day, is because AG1 is, to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market.
我开始服用 AG1 的原因，以及我仍然每天服用的原因，是因为据我所知，AG1 是市场上质量最高、最全面的基础营养补充剂。
AG1 is designed to support things like gut health, immune health, and overall energy.
AG1 旨在支持肠道健康、免疫健康和整体能量等。
And it does so by helping to fill any gaps that you might have in your daily nutrition.
它通过帮助填补您日常营养中可能存在的任何缺口来实现这一目标。
I get asked pretty much all the time, "If I could only take one supplement, what should that supplement be?" And my answer is always AG1.
我经常被问到，“如果我只能服用一种补充剂，那么该补充剂应该是什么？”我的答案始终是AG1。
It has just been so helpful for supporting all aspects of physical health, mental health, and performance.
它对于支持身体健康、心理健康和表现的各个方面都非常有帮助。
If you would like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 以获得特别优惠。
For a limited time, AG1 is giving away a free bottle of their new omega-3 coenzyme Q10 product.
AG1 限时免费赠送一瓶新的 omega-3 辅酶 Q10 产品。
Omega-3 and coenzyme Q10 are known to support cardiovascular health, cellular health and energy generally, brain health, and much more.
众所周知，Omega-3 和辅酶 Q10 可支持心血管健康、细胞健康和能量、大脑健康等。
I personally take them both every day.
我个人每天都会服用它们。
Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a free bottle of the new omega-3 coenzyme Q10 with your first AG1 subscription.
同样，请访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman，首次订阅 AG1 即可免费获得一瓶新型 omega-3 辅酶 Q10。
There seems to be something asymmetric about sleep requirements, in my experience, and I don't think I'm alone in this, whereby if I go to bed at 10:00 P.M., I get into bed at 9:30, fall asleep at 10:00, I need about six and a half, maybe seven hours to feel completely rested.
根据我的经验，睡眠要求似乎有些不对称，而且我不认为我是唯一这样做的人，如果我晚上 10:00 上床睡觉，我会在 9:30 上床睡觉，在 10:00 入睡，我需要大约六个半小时，也许七个小时才能感到完全休息。
That's how long I'll sleep, wake up without an alarm feeling great.
这就是我能睡多久，醒来时没有闹钟，感觉很棒。
If I go to bed at midnight, I find I could sleep till 9:00 and still not feel completely rested.
如果我半夜睡觉，我发现我可以睡到9:00，但仍然感觉没有完全休息。
So there's some weird sleep inertia stuff going on there, et cetera.
所以那里发生了一些奇怪的睡眠惯性，等等。
The old adage is every hour before midnight is worth two after.
古老的格言是午夜之前的每一个小时都抵得上午夜之后的两个小时。
But is there any real data to support that, or is this just all subjective and conjecture?
但这是否有任何真实数据支持，或者这只是主观和猜测？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
I'm not sure there's data to support that.
我不确定是否有数据支持这一点。
I haven't seen anything.
我什么也没看到。
But what I can say from what you're saying is that if you usually go to bed at 9:30, 10 o'clock, and then all of a sudden you go to bed at midnight, now you're kind of out of line with your personal circadian system, right?
但从你的说法中我可以说的是，如果你通常在9:30、10点睡觉，然后突然在半夜睡觉，那么你现在有点不符合你的个人昼夜节律系统，对吧？
And it's always harder to get a good night's sleep if you're not going with your internal ...
如果你不顺应你的内心，那么你就很难睡个好觉......
clock or your internal circadian preference.
时钟或您的内部昼夜节律偏好。
This is what happens with shift workers, right?
这就是轮班工人的情况，对吗？
For example, they're not sleeping at night.
例如，他们晚上不睡觉。
They're trying to sleep during the day.
他们白天想睡觉。
They're trying to sleep during the day where their melatonin's low or it should be when it's high.
他们试图在白天褪黑激素水平低的时候睡觉，或者在褪黑激素水平高的时候睡觉。
So they're fighting their circadian system.
所以他们正在与自己的昼夜节律系统作斗争。
So yes, they should be getting seven hours, but they're not getting seven hours because their body's not designed to be sleeping during the daytime hours.
所以，是的，他们应该睡七个小时，但他们没有睡七个小时，因为他们的身体不适合在白天睡觉。
Plus, then you have everything else, right?
另外，那么你还有其他一切，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
The light, the stress.
光，压力。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
The lights, the noise, the kids-
灯光、噪音、孩子们——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
the whatever life that-
无论什么生活——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
that happens during the daytime when everybody else is awake and you're trying to sleep.
这种情况发生在白天，当时其他人都醒着，而你正想睡觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, the only thing I can think of that's an advantage to being nocturnal is the quiet.
是的，我能想到夜间活动的唯一优势就是安静。
I used to sometimes shift to a nocturnal schedule during holidays in graduate school when everyone would go home because my parents lived relatively close to where I went to graduate school.
我有时会在研究生放假期间改成夜间活动，那时每个人都会回家，因为我父母住的地方离我读研究生的地方相对较近。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I could afford to just go home for Christmas, right?
这样我就可以回家过圣诞节了，对吗？
Just that day.
就在那天。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or the couple of days, and everyone else had to travel, so I could invert my schedule.
或者有几天，其他人都必须旅行，所以我可以颠倒我的日程安排。
It just kind of drifted that way.
它只是有点这样漂移。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I promise that's the only advantage of going to bed at 4:00 AM and sleeping until 3:00 PM, at least for typical people.
我保证这是凌晨 4:00 上床睡觉并睡到下午 3:00 的唯一优势，至少对于一般人来说是这样。
Your brain gets into a weird space-
你的大脑进入了一个奇怪的空间——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
when you're inverted from the rest of the world.
当你与世界其他地方相反时。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, the things you do when you're a grad student.
嗯，就是你作为研究生时所做的事情。
I would do the opposite, right?
我会做相反的事，对吗？
I'd wake up at 4:00 AM and then study because I felt like all of the hours of studying before the sun rose were extras.
我会在凌晨 4:00 起床然后学习，因为我觉得太阳升起之前的所有学习时间都是额外的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Extra time for me.
给我额外的时间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, it was definitely extra.
嗯，这绝对是额外的。
But you felt like you were extra sharp at those hours?
但你觉得自己在那些时间里特别敏锐？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Extra sharp.
格外锋利。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
I could study and then-
我可以学习然后-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm impressed
我印象深刻
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
I got that time done, and then breakfast, but then I crash later in the afternoon.
我完成了那个时间，然后吃早餐，但下午晚些时候我崩溃了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's the problem, the 1:00, 2:00 PM crash.
这就是问题所在，下午 1:00、2:00 崩溃。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Has your work explored napping at all?
你的作品有探索过午睡吗？
I'm a believer in naps and non-sleep deep rest, yoga nidra type things-
我相信小睡和非睡眠深度休息、瑜伽休息术之类的东西——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
meditation.
冥想。
Do naps factor into this diet, nutrition, hunger equation?
午睡会影响饮食、营养和饥饿等式吗？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
So we haven't done research on napping per se.
所以我们还没有对小睡本身进行研究。
For me, there's a lot going on with napping.
对我来说，小睡有很多事情。
I don't think we have very good data to be able to say what's appropriate about napping.
我认为我们没有很好的数据来说明什么是适当的小睡。
What we do know is that you don't want to nap too close to bedtime because you want to build sleep pressure throughout the day, and if you're dissipating this sleep pressure, this sleep need too close to bedtime, then you're not going to be able to fall asleep when time comes to go to bed at your usual hour.
我们所知道的是，你不想在太接近就寝时间的时候小睡，因为你想在一天中建立睡眠压力，如果你要消除这种睡眠压力，这种睡眠需要太接近就寝时间，那么当你在通常的时间上床睡觉时，你将无法入睡。
And then you get into this vicious cycle and it's not helpful.
然后你就陷入了这个恶性循环，这没有任何帮助。
But there are some studies that say, well, what should you do if you can't sleep enough at night and you're feeling tired?
但有一些研究表明，如果您晚上睡眠不足并且感到疲倦，该怎么办？
Should you sleep?
你应该睡觉吗？
Recommendations are that you should make it a short nap, 30 minutes, no more than an hour, early enough in the day if possible, so that you can have sufficient time to rebuild that sleep pressure to be able to fall back asleep well when time comes.
建议您小睡一会儿，30 分钟，不超过 1 小时，如果可能的话，在当天尽早进行，这样您就有足够的时间重建睡眠压力，以便在时间到来时能够很好地重新入睡。
But then there's also this whole question about what's a nap for, right?
但还有一个问题就是小睡是为了什么，对吧？
Why are you sleepy?
你为什么困？
Of course, if you've pulled an all-nighter, it's easy to know.
当然，如果你熬夜了，就很容易知道。
But if you had sufficient sleep or sufficient opportunity for sleep at night and you're waking up and you're not feeling refreshed, you're not feeling like you had good quality sleep, and then you're not able to maintain alertness throughout the day and you need a nap, I think you should check to see what's going on at night.
但如果你晚上有充足的睡眠或有足够的睡眠机会，而你醒来时感觉不精神，你感觉睡眠质量不佳，然后你无法全天保持警觉，需要小睡一下，我认为你应该检查一下晚上发生了什么。
Why are you not getting that good enough sleep?
为什么你睡眠质量不够好？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm chuckling because my postdoc advisor sparked this huge debate.
我笑了，因为我的博士后导师引发了这场巨大的争论。
It was a big lab, and we had a couple of people in the lab who liked to nap at their desk.
那是一个很大的实验室，实验室里有几个人喜欢在办公桌前打盹。
These were people that could just put their head down and nap at their desk in the afternoon.
这些人下午可以低下头在办公桌上打盹。
You'd walk in, they'd be napping, and then they'd wake up and keep working.
你走进去，他们会小睡，然后他们就会醒来并继续工作。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Everyone was working very hard, and he had this theory that if you're napping, it's because you're sleep deprived, that napping is unhealthy.
每个人都非常努力地工作，他有这样的理论：如果你在打瞌睡，那是因为你睡眠不足，打瞌睡是不健康的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it sparked a big debate, and people, because we're a bunch of nerds, people bring data in, like, "No, the sleep lab at Stanford says that naps can be healthy." And I think what you just described summarizes, I think, the takeaway.
这引发了一场大辩论，人们，因为我们是一群书呆子，人们带来数据，比如，“不，斯坦福大学的睡眠实验室说小睡可以是健康的。”我认为你刚才的描述总结了要点。
I'm a believer in the short nap, but I'm one of these people that can sleep anywhere, anytime, which may be reflective of sleep deprivation.
我是短小睡的信徒，但我是随时随地都可以睡觉的人之一，这可能反映了睡眠不足。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
It may be, yeah.
可能是的，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you find that when you're going to design a study or when you're going to really work, like this 4:00 AM time, that it's a time of calm or are you a late-- Do you feel like your mind is moving fast or you're in this flow zone or whatever you want to call it?
你是否发现，当你要设计一项研究或当你要真正工作时，比如凌晨 4:00 的时间，这是一个平静的时间，还是你迟到了——你是否感觉你的思维正在快速运转，或者你处于这个流动区域或任何你想称之为的地方？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
I'm very focused.
我非常专注。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Very efficient.
非常高效。
So I try to be really attentive at my task.
所以我尝试真正专注于我的任务。
I try to take breaks once in a while, but most of the time it's very efficient, get to the task-
我偶尔会尝试休息一下，但大多数时候效率很高，开始工作吧——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
and get it done.
并完成它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Earlier you were talking about biking into work.
早些时候你谈到骑自行车上班。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You strike me as somebody who I always think of people who I'm always impressed by colleagues like this, that their life is like a step function.
你给我的印象是，我总是对这样的同事印象深刻，他们的生活就像一个阶梯函数。
They wake up and it's like , and they're into the day.
他们醒来后，就像是，他们进入了新的一天。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Pretty much.
差不多了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then it's down, right?
然后就下来了，对吧？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
I think some of us are more like this.
我认为我们中的一些人更像这样。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
But I think it's important to have a little bit of both, though.
但我认为两者兼而有之很重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
I think it's important to have downtime, speed time-
我认为有休息时间、加快时间很重要-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yep
是的
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
to not just be go, go, go, go, go.
不只是去，去，去，去，去。
You were asking about my personal actions, and at one point I was running a lot for exercise, and I felt like my whole life was just running all the time.
你问的是我个人的行为，有一次我为了锻炼而经常跑步，我感觉我的一生都在跑步。
Run-
奔跑-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Your brain too?
你的脑子也是吗？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊。
Run to get my kids to school, run to work, get work done, run to then run for fun.
跑步送我的孩子上学，跑去上班，完成工作，跑去然后跑去玩乐。
Run, run, run, and then I thought, "Okay, I need to .
跑，跑，跑，然后我想，“好吧，我需要......
I think I need a breather." And so I started incorporating yoga into my My exercise routine.
我想我需要喘口气。”因此，我开始将瑜伽纳入我的日常锻炼中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How is that?
怎么样？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
I think that's good.
我认为这很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah?
是吗？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Actually, when I was a grad student, I thought yoga was stressful- ...
事实上，当我还是一名研究生时，我认为瑜伽压力很大——......
because I couldn't stand in those poses.
因为我无法站立那些姿势。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
But I think yoga evolved.
但我认为瑜伽是进化而来的。
I think the yoga I do now, it's not as static-
我认为我现在做的瑜伽，它不是那么静态-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
as the yoga I was doing when I was a grad student.
就像我研究生时做的瑜伽一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
I think it evolved to be a little more active than-
我认为它进化得比-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
back then.
那时。
I see the benefit to having yeah, the both types of exercise.
我看到了两种运动的好处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thanks for being willing- ...
谢谢你愿意——...
to explore that.
去探索那个。
I'm not an Ayurvedic practitioner, but the Ayurvedic folks, they'll talk about people like more fire, more water, more earth, you know, and I think it's just a different lens and nomenclature on there's a kind of array of-
我不是阿育吠陀实践者，但阿育吠陀人，他们会谈论人们喜欢更多的火，更多的水，更多的土，你知道，我认为这只是一个不同的镜头和术语，有一系列-
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
phenotypes.
表型。
But when we talk about this thing sleep, it becomes very prescriptive, right?
但是当我们谈论睡眠这件事时，它就变得非常规范了，对吧？
It's like we all need six to eight hours.
就好像我们都需要六到八个小时。
I mean, actually, from what you're saying today, six sounds like insufficient is what I'm hearing.
我的意思是，实际上，从你今天所说的来看，我听到的六个听起来不够。
I'm probably a little sleep deprived is what-
我可能有点睡眠不足——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I'm kind of hearing.
我有点听懂了
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
So you know, a colleague of mine just published a paper in Nature about the biological clocks and aging in different organs, and the sweet spot really was six and a half to about seven and a half, eight hours for optimal aging.
所以你知道，我的一位同事刚刚在《自然》杂志上发表了一篇关于生物钟和不同器官衰老的论文，最佳衰老时间实际上是六个半到大约七个半，八个小时。
Once you get to below that, it's basically U-shaped, right?
一旦低于这个值，它基本上就是 U 形的，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
So too much of one thing is not good, too little is not good.
所以一件事情太多不好，太少也不好。
You want to be in the sweet spot.
你想要处于最佳状态。
Most organs for optimal aging was in the six and a half to 7.8.
大多数器官的最佳衰老年龄是六岁半到7.8岁。
And it differed a little bit by men and women, depending on which organs he was looking at.
男性和女性的情况略有不同，具体取决于他所观察的器官。
A little longer for women.
女性的时间要长一点。
Some of the curves were different where, some are more pronounced U-shapes in men than women in different organs, so a very interesting paper.
有些曲线是不同的，有些在不同器官中男性比女性更明显的 U 形，所以这是一篇非常有趣的论文。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Came out last week or two weeks ago.
上周或两周前发布。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'll have to check it out.
我得去检查一下。
What other sex differences are known to exist in sleep requirements, sleep dynamics, from your work or from other work?
您的工作或其他工作在睡眠要求、睡眠动态方面还存在哪些已知的性别差异？
This is not something we've really covered on the podcast.
这不是我们在播客中真正涵盖的内容。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
No?
没有？
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I mean, well, not in-
不，我的意思是，好吧，不是在-
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in any sufficient amount of detail.
任何足够的细节。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
So women tend to sleep a little longer than men across lifespan.
因此，在一生中，女性的睡眠时间往往比男性长一些。
Although, if you ask women about their sleep, they don't rate their sleep as very good.
不过，如果你询问女性的睡眠情况，她们并不认为自己的睡眠质量很好。
More women than men report having difficulties with sleep.
报告睡眠困难的女性多于男性。
Insomnia, for example, insomnia symptoms, more women than men say they have difficulty falling asleep, difficulty maintaining sleep, across the adult lifespan.
失眠，例如失眠症状，女性多于男性表示她们在整个成年寿命中难以入睡、难以维持睡眠。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Why do you think that is?
你认为这是为什么？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
There could be some physiological effects, right?
可能会有一些生理影响，对吧？
Some hormonal effects.
一些荷尔蒙效应。
Women don't sleep the same across a menstrual cycle.
女性在整个月经周期的睡眠时间并不相同。
There's discomfort at different times, and there's different responsibilities, different social roles that come into play that may influence women differently than men.
不同的时间会出现不适，不同的责任、不同的社会角色也会对女性产生与男性不同的影响。
But we're working on a review paper actually about hypertension and sleep and sex differences, and women are more sensitive to the impact of poor sleep on different metabolic outcomes than men.
但我们正在撰写一篇实际上是关于高血压、睡眠和性别差异的评论论文，女性比男性对睡眠不良对不同代谢结果的影响更敏感。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
So for blood pressure, at lower sleep apnea, for example, at lower thresholds of sleep apnea, their blood pressure would be higher than men.
所以对于血压来说，在睡眠呼吸暂停较低的情况下，例如在睡眠呼吸暂停阈值较低的情况下，他们的血压会高于男性。
So I think that there needs to be, for sure, a lot more research in this area to be able to uncover these differences, and then knowing that there are these differences, to start probing women about their sleep.
因此，我认为，在这一领域肯定需要进行更多的研究，才能发现这些差异，然后了解这些差异的存在，从而开始调查女性的睡眠情况。
Last year, we published a scientific statement for the American Heart Association about multidimensional sleep health, and we concluded by recommending clinicians that they actually ask their patients about sleep.
去年，我们为美国心脏协会发表了一份关于多维睡眠健康的科学声明，最后我们建议临床医生向患者询问有关睡眠的问题。
And not ask a targeted question, just ask their patients, "How's your sleep?" Because if you start asking about, "Oh, how much sleep do you usually get at night?" Then you tell the person that the only thing that matters is how many hours of sleep you got at night.
不要问有针对性的问题，只需问患者“你的睡眠怎么样？”因为如果你开始问“哦，你通常晚上睡多少觉？”然后你告诉对方，唯一重要的是你晚上睡了多少小时。
That's not all sleep is about, right?
这并不是睡眠的全部意义，对吧？
Sleep is not just about the number of hours that you got, but it's also about the regularity, the quality, your satisfaction with it.
睡眠不仅仅与您获得的小时数有关，还与睡眠的规律性、质量以及您对睡眠的满意度有关。
There's nighttime experiences, there's daytime experiences from sleep.
有夜间体验，也有白天睡眠体验。
When you wake up from sleep, are you feeling refreshed?
当你从睡梦中醒来时，你是否感觉神清气爽？
Are you satisfied with the sleep you got the night before?
您对前一天晚上的睡眠满意吗？
During the day, are you staying alert?
白天，你保持警惕吗？
Are you vigilant during the daytime hours from your past sleep experience?
根据您过去的睡眠经历，您在白天是否保持警惕？
So having this open-ended question, maybe clinicians won't have time for the answer, but it allows their patient to actually tell them what's bothering them about their sleep.
因此，提出这个开放式问题，也许临床医生没有时间回答，但它可以让患者真正告诉他们是什么困扰了他们的睡眠。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Then you can get to something like, "My spouse keeps kicking me because I'm snoring too loud." Then, "Oh, well, maybe we should test you for sleep apnea."
然后你可以说，“我的配偶一直踢我，因为我打鼾太大声了。”然后，“哦，好吧，也许我们应该测试一下你是否患有睡眠呼吸暂停。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Does apnea always include snoring?
呼吸暂停总是包括打鼾吗？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So are there some people who don't snore who have apnea?
那么是否有一些不打鼾的人患有呼吸暂停呢？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
I don't think so.
我不这么认为。
You stop breathing, and then there's this gasping sound that people make when they awaken from that or they get aroused from this breathing interruption.
你停止呼吸，然后人们从呼吸中断中醒来或因呼吸中断而被唤醒时会发出喘息声。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I feel like so many people have apnea and don't realize it.
我觉得很多人都患有呼吸暂停但没有意识到这一点。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not because I'm sneaking into their rooms at night and listening to if they snore, but it is just remarkable how many people I speak to who say, "Yeah, I found out I had apnea because I saw that I was snoring," because they started monitoring their sleep-
不是因为我晚上偷偷溜进他们的房间，听他们是否打鼾，而是值得注意的是，有很多人在我交谈过的时候说，“是的，我发现我有呼吸暂停，因为我看到我在打鼾，”因为他们开始监测自己的睡眠——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and there's generally a snoring index on these.
这些通常都有一个打鼾指数。
Or now-
或者现在——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
there are free apps that can just record you while-
有一些免费的应用程序可以记录您的情况-
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you sleep.
你睡觉。
So I know a lot of people are...
所以我知道很多人都...
I don't mouth tape-
我不用嘴贴胶带-
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
when I sleep, but I do sometimes use one of these nose strips that kind of pulls the nostrils out a bit.
当我睡觉时，但有时我确实会使用其中一个鼻带，将鼻孔拉出一点。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That certainly it's reduced the amount of snoring for me.
这确实减少了我的打鼾次数。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
That will reduce the amount of snoring, but the sleep apnea is from the throat, right?
这样会减少打鼾的量，但睡眠呼吸暂停是从喉咙发出的，对吗？
So this-
所以这个——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
closure in the throat that obstructs the trachea, and that's what then prompts the awakening and breathing and then the sound that comes from there.
喉咙的闭合阻塞了气管，这就是促使觉醒和呼吸的原因，然后是从那里发出的声音。
Actually, weight loss is typically the first ...
事实上，减肥通常是第一个...
line treatment if someone has excess weight to start losing weight, that might help with sleep apnea.
如果有人体重超重并开始减肥，则进行一线治疗，这可能有助于缓解睡眠呼吸暂停。
Then there's CPAP, which, yes, people don't like, but if they are at a lower weight where the apnea is milder, the pressure may be so not as high, so that might be helpful for comfort.
然后是 CPAP，是的，人们不喜欢它，但如果他们体重较轻，呼吸暂停较轻微，压力可能不会那么高，因此这可能有助于舒适度。
I have a colleague of mine who does sleep apnea surgeries, so implantables are also-
我有一位同事做睡眠呼吸暂停手术，所以植入式设备也是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh.
哦。
If people think they might have apnea, is it just get a CPAP, pop that thing on?
如果人们认为自己可能患有呼吸暂停，是否只需接受 CPAP，打开那个东西就可以了？
Is that the best line of entry?
这是最好的进入线吗？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
I think they should get tested.
我认为他们应该接受测试。
They should-
他们应该——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So how does one do that?
那么如何做到这一点呢？
Because that's the problem
因为这就是问题所在
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
so yeah.
所以是的。
If you're suspecting that you may have sleep apnea because you've been told that you snore, because you wake up and you're not feeling refreshed and you're feeling sleepy during the day, I think you should talk to your doctor about this.
如果您怀疑自己可能患有睡眠呼吸暂停，因为有人告诉您您打鼾，因为您醒来后感觉不清醒并且白天感到困倦，我认为您应该与您的医生讨论这一点。
And definitely we have polysonography is the first line, is what we use to detect sleep apnea.
当然，我们的第一线是多超声检查，我们用它来检测睡眠呼吸暂停。
But there is in-home sleep testing that can be done, so you don't have to stay overnight in a lab to get tested for this, and your doctor can prescribe that test very easily.
但是可以进行家庭睡眠测试，因此您不必在实验室过夜来进行测试，并且您的医生可以很容易地开出该测试。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How come we can't just go buy a CPAP on Amazon?
为什么我们不能直接去亚马逊购买 CPAP 呼吸机？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Because you need to have the pressure determined for you, right?
因为你需要为你确定压力，对吗？
So you need to know what kind of pressure to apply and how to set it up.
因此，您需要知道施加什么样的压力以及如何设置压力。
It's not as simple as just-
这并不只是那么简单——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay
好的
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
you know.
你知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All right.
好吧。
Fair.
公平的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
It needs to have the proper settings-
它需要有正确的设置 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
and someone needs to tell you which setting to use-
并且需要有人告诉您使用哪种设置 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
because then that's where you run into the trouble of having the wrong settings and not being effective.
因为这样你就会遇到设置错误且效率低下的麻烦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I just know from having done this podcast a while that if people think, "Okay, I got to go to my doctor.
我只是通过做这个播客一段时间才知道，如果人们想，“好吧，我得去看医生。
I got to find out or convince them that I have apnea," then they have to write me a script for a CPAP, then I got to buy a CPAP, which I'm guessing is not cheap.
我必须找出或说服他们我患有呼吸暂停，”然后他们必须给我写一个 CPAP 呼吸机的脚本，然后我必须购买 CPAP 呼吸机，我猜这并不便宜。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
I'm not sure.
我不确定。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't think they're very inexpensive.
我不认为它们很便宜。
The price might have come down.
价格可能已经降下来了。
And I got to sleep with this thing on my face, looking like Darth Vader-
我睡觉的时候脸上都放着这个东西，看起来像达斯·维达——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
so I don't sound like Darth Vader.
所以我听起来不像达斯维达。
I just think very few people are going to do it.
我只是觉得很少有人会这么做。
So somebody out there should come up with an at-home solution to this.
因此，应该有人想出一个家庭解决方案来解决这个问题。
Something like apnea seems important enough to-
像呼吸暂停这样的事情似乎很重要——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
daytime wakefulness, cognitive function, longevity, metabolic.
白天清醒度、认知功能、长寿、新陈代谢。
It wicks out to so many things-
它会影响很多事情——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that I feel like it-
我觉得这样-
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
If you use it-
如果你使用它——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it deserves like a public health messaging.
它值得像公共卫生信息一样。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
If you use-
如果你使用-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
it well and you feel better during the day, that's reinforcing, right?
效果很好，你白天感觉更好，这就是强化，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
To keep using it-
要继续使用它-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
and get treated for it.
并接受治疗。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's talk about food-
我们来谈谈食物吧——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and nutrients.
和营养素。
You've done a substantial amount of work here in this area, and I have a bunch of questions.
您在这个领域已经做了大量的工作，而我有很多问题。
But first I want to talk about kefir.
但首先我想谈谈开菲尔。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love Bulgarian full-fat plain yogurt, but it's right next to the kefir.
我喜欢保加利亚全脂原味酸奶，但它就在开菲尔旁边。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm always like, "Do I get the kefir?" Well, I don't know.
我总是问，“我要开菲尔吗？”嗯，我不知道。
I love the Bulgarian full-fat plain yogurt.
我喜欢保加利亚全脂原味酸奶。
So I haven't tried the kefir yet.
所以我还没有尝试过开菲尔。
What's special about kefir and why did you study kefir?
开菲尔有什么特别之处？您为什么研究开菲尔？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Kefir we studied because it was a fermented dairy product, probiotics.
我们研究开菲尔是因为它是一种发酵乳制品，益生菌。
We figured maybe it will improve cholesterol synthesis based on its impact on short-chain fatty acids.
基于其对短链脂肪酸的影响，我们认为它可能会改善胆固醇的合成。
So that was the subject of my master's thesis.
这就是我硕士论文的主题。
And for that study, that was when I was at McGill, we recruited men that had mildly elevated cholesterol levels.
对于这项研究，当时我在麦吉尔大学，我们招募了胆固醇水平轻度升高的男性。
We gave them two cups per day versus just regular milk for a month.
我们每天给他们两杯牛奶，而不是一个月的普通牛奶。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So two cups, like two mugs like this?
那么两个杯子，就像这样的两个马克杯？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Two cups like-
两个杯子就像——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like-
就像-
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
the measuring cup.
量杯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Like 500 mls.
比如500毫升。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
And we measured the amount of cholesterol they produced at baseline, endpoint in both phases, and there was no effect.
我们测量了它们在基线和终点两个阶段产生的胆固醇量，结果没有任何影响。
It was a null study.
这是一项无效研究。
It was one of those.
这是其中之一。
It was hard to get published.
出版很难。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Kept at it, and we got it published, but yeah.
坚持下去，我们就把它出版了，但是是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So these fermented yogurts and things, they don't do anything for cholesterol levels.
所以这些发酵酸奶之类的东西对胆固醇水平没有任何作用。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
At least in our study-
至少在我们的研究中——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
in this population at this level with this comparison-
在这个水平的人口中进行比较-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
didn't have any effect.
没有任何效果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's your general thought about low-sugar fermented foods?
您对低糖发酵食品的总体看法如何？
I don't know if kefir qualifies as low sugar, but based on Justin Sonnenburg's work at Stanford-
我不知道开菲尔是否符合低糖标准，但根据贾斯汀·索南伯格在斯坦福大学的研究——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and others, I've been really bullish on this idea of sauerkraut, kimchi, full-fat Bulgarian yogurt.
和其他人一样，我非常看好酸菜、泡菜、全脂保加利亚酸奶的想法。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fermented foods are interesting.
发酵食品很有趣。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are you a proponent in general?
您总体上是支持者吗？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
I'm a proponent.
我是支持者。
Yeah, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
I think it's important to feed your gut.
我认为养活你的肠胃很重要。
I think that the gut microbiome is getting a lot of attention for all sorts of health benefits, so I think that that's something that's as important.
我认为肠道微生物组因其各种健康益处而受到广泛关注，所以我认为这同样重要。
So also, it's important to also consider that for that study, right, our main outcome was cholesterol synthesis, but there's so many other things we could have looked at that we didn't look at, right?
因此，重要的是要考虑到，对于这项研究，我们的主要结果是胆固醇合成，但还有很多其他我们可以考虑但我们没有考虑的事情，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
And maybe it didn't have any impact for cholesterol synthesis, but maybe glycemic control might be better-
也许它对胆固醇合成没有任何影响，但也许血糖控制可能会更好-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
or for gut inflammation, it would be better.
或者对于肠道炎症，效果会更好。
But you pick your outcomes, right?
但你选择你的结果，对吗？
You study something, that's-
你研究一些东西，那就是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is the challenge-
这就是挑战——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
that's how it is
就是这样
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with doing controlled science.
进行受控科学。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Sort of the opposite end of the X, what used to be called Twitter science, where people just report anecdotes, but-
有点像 X 的另一端，过去被称为 Twitter 科学，人们只是报告轶事，但是——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
actually anecdotes of that sort have become very powerful now in the public health space, for better or worse.
实际上，无论好坏，这类轶事现在在公共卫生领域已经变得非常强大。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People, because we can look at any study and say, "Well, that's a very artificial circumstance." You say, "Well, intentionally because we're trying to isolate variables." You know?
人们，因为我们可以在看到任何研究后说：“嗯，这是一个非常人为的情况。”你说，“嗯，故意的，因为我们试图隔离变量。”你知道？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Right, right, right.
对，对，对。
Exactly.
确切地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People get frustrated.
人们会感到沮丧。
"Oh, that's an observational study." Well, I'm going to continue to eat low-sugar fermented foods every day.
“哦，这是一项观察性研究。”嗯，我打算继续每天吃低糖发酵食品。
I do think in a study like the one you described, occasionally there's...
我确实认为在像你所描述的那样的研究中，偶尔会有......
Let me state this differently.
让我以不同的方式表述这一点。
Historically, in science, there's been a lot of interesting discoveries that have come from Researchers designing a study look at one thing and then kind of noticing, oh, like all the subjects feel better or sleep better, or their skin.
从历史上看，在科学领域，研究人员设计了一项研究来观察一件事，然后注意到，哦，就像所有受试者都感觉更好或睡眠更好，或者他们的皮肤一样，有很多有趣的发现。
They're reporting things that then lead to another-
他们报告的事情随后会导致另一件事——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
another line of inquiry.
另一条询问线。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But you moved on from kefir.
但你已经放弃了开菲尔。
Tell me about this paper.
告诉我关于这篇论文的事。
I was intrigued by this when I looked over your CV.
当我查看你的简历时，我对此很感兴趣。
"A weight loss diet that includes a coffee beverage enriched in," let me try this, "mannooligosaccharides."
“一种减肥饮食，其中包括富含“甘露寡糖”的咖啡饮料，让我尝试一下。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that okay?
可以吗？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, long word.
好吧，长话短说。
"Leads to a greater loss of adipose fat tissue than placebo beverage in overweight men."
“对于超重男性来说，与安慰剂饮料相比，它会导致更多的脂肪组织损失。”
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Tell me about this study and what these manooligosaccharides are.
告诉我有关这项研究的信息以及这些甘露寡糖是什么。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And if somebody wants to lose weight, should they be including this in their coffee?
如果有人想减肥，他们应该在咖啡中加入这个吗？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
So this was industry-sponsored research that I did.
这是我所做的由行业赞助的研究。
They wanted to replicate a study that had been done in a different country because they wanted to replicate the findings.
他们想要重复在不同国家进行的一项研究，因为他们想要重复研究结果。
So we did the study.
所以我们做了研究。
It was basically a placebo-controlled study.
这基本上是一项安慰剂对照研究。
We were provided, coffee manooligosaccharides.
我们得到了咖啡甘露寡糖。
So these are extracted from spent coffee grounds.
所以这些是从用过的咖啡渣中提取的。
So it was basically sachets, right?
所以它基本上是小袋，对吧？
So a white packet, one had the coffee manooligosaccharides, the other one didn't.
一个白色的小包里，一个含有咖啡甘露寡糖，另一个则没有。
We gave it to our study participants.
我们把它给了我们的研究参与者。
We measured their body composition.
我们测量了他们的身体成分。
We found an effect on body composition in men, not in women.
我们发现它对男性的身体成分有影响，但对女性没有影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
And so that was the end of that product.
这就是该产品的终结。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They wouldn't market it just because it only had an effect in men?
他们不会仅仅因为它只对男性有效而推销它？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
They're like-
他们就像——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I assure you there are many men who would love to drink a coffee drink- ...
我向你保证有很多男人喜欢喝咖啡饮料 - ...
and lose more weight as a consequence.
并因此减轻更多体重。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
No, it's not going to be our market.
不，这不会是我们的市场。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But do we know what the ingredients were?
但我们知道它的成分是什么吗？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
It was manooligosaccharides.
它是甘露寡糖。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that the-- There's only one-
那是——只有一个——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Just the extracted-
只是提取出来的-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So it was just basically a product that tasted like coffee, strong coffee, but it didn't have the caffeine or anything like that.
所以它基本上只是一种尝起来像咖啡、浓咖啡的产品，但它不含咖啡因或类似的东西。
It just had this manooligosaccharide that was extracted from coffee.
它只是含有从咖啡中提取的甘露寡糖。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So this substance comes from coffee ordinarily.
所以这种物质通常来自咖啡。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But coffee is very low calorie on its own.
但咖啡本身的热量非常低。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Right.
对。
But it's from the spent grounds, so no one really consumes this, really, because-
但它来自废弃的土地，所以没有人真正消耗它，真的，因为-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
when you brew your coffee, you're-
当你煮咖啡时，你——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
you're not getting it.
你不明白。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're not consuming it.
你没有消费它。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can you buy it?
你能买吗？
Can people get it?
人们能得到它吗？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
I don't think so.
我不这么认为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what-
那又怎样——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
I'm not sure.
我不确定。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, first of all, how much weight did they lose relative to the-
所以，首先，他们相对于-减少了多少体重
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
It was statistically significant.
这是有统计学意义的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Okay.
好的。
I was intrigued by it because I thought there's something that...
我对此很感兴趣，因为我认为有一些东西......
It's interesting you study kefir, manooligosaccharides from coffee.
您研究开菲尔（咖啡中的甘露寡糖）很有趣。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And now I'm going to ask you about ginger.
现在我要问你关于姜的事。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
When I was a graduate student, I was interested in functional foods.
当我还是一名研究生时，我对功能性食品很感兴趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
And I was interested in those foods that provide health benefits beyond their nutritional value.
我对那些提供超出其营养价值的健康益处的食物感兴趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Right.
对。
So kefir is a fermented dairy product.
所以开菲尔是一种发酵乳制品。
We were studying it for its functional benefit on cholesterol synthesis.
我们正在研究它对胆固醇合成的功能益处。
That's not a function of dairy, right?
这不是乳制品的功能，对吗？
Dairy is, you consume it for bone health, right?
乳制品是为了骨骼健康而食用的，对吧？
So it's basically when we talk about different claims that foods have.
所以基本上当我们谈论食物的不同主张时。
There's those structure function claims, like consuming dairy contains calcium that's good for your bones.
有一些结构功能声称，比如食用乳制品中含有对骨骼有益的钙。
And then there's functional claims.
然后是功能性声明。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Those functional claims or health claims, we call them, that say, okay, well, health claim.
我们称这些功能声明或健康声明为健康声明。
There's a health claim for oats, for example, right?
例如，燕麦有健康声明，对吗？
So consuming fiber from oats reduces cholesterol levels.
因此，食用燕麦纤维可以降低胆固醇水平。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's been demonstrated?
这已经被证明了？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
So that's a health claim.
所以这是一个健康声明。
That's an approved health claim.
这是经批准的健康声明。
That's why you see the hearts on some boxes of cereal.
这就是为什么你会在一些麦片盒上看到心形图案。
But that's different than fiber is good for maintaining regularity, right?
但这与纤维有利于保持规律性不同，对吗？
So anyways, I was interested in functional foods for health benefits beyond their nutritional content.
所以无论如何，我对功能性食品感兴趣，因为它除了营养成分之外还具有健康益处。
And so, we studied kefir for my master's degree, and then for my PhD, studied medium chain triglycerides.
因此，我们为我的硕士学位研究了开菲尔，然后为我的博士学位研究了中链甘油三酯。
And then ginger, that was something that I offered to a grad student at Columbia.
然后是姜汁，这是我向哥伦比亚大学的一名研究生提供的东西。
It was interesting because the McCormick company had an advertisement in one of the nutrition journals, and they were going to donate spices for research.
这很有趣，因为味好美公司在一本营养杂志上刊登了一则广告，他们将捐赠香料用于研究。
I was like, "Oh, good." They had a list of different herbs and spices that they were going to donate for research.
我当时想，“哦，很好。”他们有一份不同的草药和香料的清单，他们将捐赠这些草药和香料用于研究。
And I had a grad student, and I said, "Take a look at this list.
我有一个研究生，我说，“看看这个清单。
Come back to me.
回到我身边吧。
Say if there's something in there that we should test in the lab based on the things that I do.
说一下里面是否有一些东西我们应该根据我所做的事情在实验室进行测试。
Don't come to me with something that I don't study, but..." And then he did some research, and he came back and he said, "I think we should study ginger." And we were like, "Okay.
不要带着我不研究的东西来找我，但是……”然后他做了一些研究，然后他回来说，“我认为我们应该研究生姜。”我们就像，“好吧。
To do what?" "I think for energy expenditure, looking at thermic effect of food." I was like, "Okay." So we did this study.
做什么？” “我认为对于能量消耗，要考虑食物的热效应。”我当时想，“好吧。”所以我们做了这项研究。
I had some funds that I could use for him to do that and-
我有一些资金可以帮助他做到这一点并且-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What did the study look like?
这项研究是什么样的？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
A study where we looked at the thermic effect of food.
我们研究了食物的热效应。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So people ate ginger root-
所以人们吃姜根——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with a spice in their food.
他们的食物里有香料。
What was the-
那是什么——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
We dissolved ginger powder in warm water.
我们将姜粉溶解在温水中。
And so that was one beverage.
这就是一种饮料。
And then, in the crossover, again, crossover design.
然后，在交叉方面，再次是交叉设计。
So the next time when they came, it was just hot water.
所以下次他们来的时候，就只有热水了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And how many times a day are they drinking it?
他们一天喝几次？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
This was a one-time consumption period, and we looked at the thermic effect of food over a six-hour period.
这是一次性消费期，我们观察了六小时内食物的热效应。
So again, they're under this, we call it a metabolic hood, right?
再说一次，他们在这个之下，我们称之为代谢罩，对吧？
So a little bubble.
所以有一点泡沫。
And we measure their oxygen consumption, carbon dioxide production for, I think it was four or five hours.
我们测量了它们的耗氧量和二氧化碳产生量，我认为这是四五个小时。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's significantly elevated-
而且显着升高了——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with ginger?
用姜？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
With ginger.
用姜。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
So we think through the capsaicin receptor, there's an increase in the thermic effect of food.
所以我们认为通过辣椒素受体，食物的热效应会增加。
So yeah.
所以是的。
So I was interested to see, are there little things that we could do, little changes we can make to our diet to boost energy expenditure relative to intake, just to tip the scale.
所以我很想知道，我们是否可以做一些小事情，对我们的饮食做一些小改变，以增加相对于摄入量的能量消耗，只是为了扩大规模。
Because- Many adults over the course of their lifetime gain weight, and it's not a big imbalance in calories on a daily basis that leads to 10 pounds of weight gain over 10, 15 years.
因为-许多成年人在一生中体重都会增加，而且每天的卡路里摄入不平衡并不会导致 10 到 15 年内体重增加 10 磅。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or more.
或者更多。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Or more.
或者更多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now again, the GLPs are coming in and adjusting.
现在，GLP 再次介入并进行调整。
But yeah, I'm very interested also in foods that have impact beyond their known-
但是，是的，我对那些影响超出其已知范围的食物也很感兴趣——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
known roles.
已知的角色。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The problem is in this area, in the functional foods area, not the problems with your work, but is that there are a lot of wild claims that go unchecked.
问题出在这个领域，在功能性食品领域，不是你工作的问题，而是有很多未经检查的疯狂主张。
Like, "Oh, walnuts are shaped like a brain, and therefore, they're good for your brain."
就像，“哦，核桃的形状像大脑，因此，它们对你的大脑有好处。”
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is, they have certain things in them which are brain beneficial, but it's not related to the shape of the food.
也就是说，它们含有某些对大脑有益的物质，但这与食物的形状无关。
So that area, I feel, of nutrition has been marginalized on the basis of the kind of quackery associated with it.
因此，我认为，营养领域由于与之相关的江湖骗术而被边缘化。
But of course, there are interesting things-
但当然，还有一些有趣的事情——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in different foods.
在不同的食物中。
I do think that the Sonnenburg and colleagues' work on low-sugar fermented foods has been very informative for lowering the inflammatome even more than fiber.
我确实认为，Sonnenburg 及其同事在低糖发酵食品方面的研究对于降低炎症的作用甚至比纤维还要丰富。
Actually, in that study, even Justin will kind of downplay this a little bit.
事实上，在那项研究中，即使是贾斯汀也会稍微淡化这一点。
He's a colleague, so I can say.
他是同事，所以我可以这么说。
In the fiber group, when they compared to low-sugar fermented foods, and then they measured the inflammatome, they did a crossover design also.
在纤维组中，当他们与低糖发酵食品进行比较，然后测量炎症组时，他们也做了交叉设计。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Within the fiber group, there was a fair number of people who their inflammation went way up when they consumed more fiber.
在纤维组中，有相当多的人在摄入更多纤维时炎症会加剧。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But in the low-sugar fermented group, or when they were in that group, it was always on average reduced.
但在低糖发酵组中，或者当他们处于该组中时，它总是平均减少。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some people who increase their fiber intake, their inflammatome decreases.
有些人增加纤维摄入量后，炎症会减少。
For a lot of people, it increases.
对于很多人来说，它会增加。
Which is not to say that fiber is bad, but I think now we're starting to think about different types of fibers.
这并不是说纤维不好，但我认为现在我们开始考虑不同类型的纤维。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Well, I was going to ask.
嗯，我正想问。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They didn't control for that.
他们没有控制这一点。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They just said increase the number of servings each day.
他们只是说增加每天的份数。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I know a lot of people don't like to eat fibrous foods because they don't feel good after they eat them.
我知道很多人不喜欢吃纤维食物，因为吃后感觉不舒服。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not that they don't taste good, and I think there's this whole histamine story that needs exploration.
并不是说它们味道不好，而且我认为整个组胺的故事需要探索。
I think foods and the healthy foods needs better parsing-
我认为食物和健康食品需要更好的解析-
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in my opinion.
在我看来。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
There was also habituation.
还有习惯。
You don't go from consuming six grams of fiber per day-
你不会放弃每天摄入六克纤维——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
to 25.
到 25。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They ramped them up, but I have to say they ramped them up pretty high.
他们提高了它们，但我不得不说，他们把它们提高得相当高。
Like even the low-sugar fermented foods, I think they got them up to like four servings per day.
就像低糖发酵食品一样，我认为他们每天吃四份。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a lot of kimchi.
这是很多泡菜。
If you're not familiar with it, it can be a little-
如果你不熟悉它，它可能有点 -
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
hard on the gut.
对肠道很困难。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I actually take an enzyme, I think it's called DAO.
我实际上服用了一种酶，我想它叫做 DAO。
Very inexpensive.
非常便宜。
It's like a tiny pill for digesting histamines.
它就像一颗用于消化组胺的小药丸。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because I noticed after I had whey protein or I had broccoli, I would get kind of sleepy.
因为我注意到吃了乳清蛋白或西兰花后，我会有点困。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I was like, "What is this?" And a colleague at Stanford, Sean Mackey, he's the head of our pain center, said that he had gut pain at one point.
我当时想，“这是什么？”斯坦福大学的一位同事肖恩·麦基（Sean Mackey）是我们疼痛中心的负责人，他说他曾一度感到肠道疼痛。
He's a pain doctor.
他是一名疼痛医生。
He directs the pain center.
他指挥疼痛中心。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And he figured out by elimination and trial and error that it was onions and other histamine-containing foods.
通过排除和反复试验，他发现是洋葱和其他含组胺的食物。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So he avoids histamine-containing foods.
所以他避免吃含有组胺的食物。
I'm not about to give up the things I just described.
我不打算放弃我刚才描述的事情。
Onions I can do without, but- So I think that foods have real effect.
洋葱我可以不用，但是-所以我认为食物有真正的作用。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So kefir, these menoligosaccharides, I have to confess, I'm a little disappointed because here it looks like it has a cool effect, but now we can't get them.
所以开菲尔，这些低聚糖，我不得不承认，我有点失望，因为在这里它看起来有很酷的效果，但现在我们买不到它们。
I'm not going to eat coffee grounds.
我不会吃咖啡渣。
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Helix Sleep.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 Helix Sleep。
Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep needs.
Helix Sleep 生产根据您独特的睡眠需求定制的床垫和枕头。
Now, I've spoken many times before on this and on other podcasts about the fact that getting a great night's sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance.
现在，我之前曾多次在这个播客和其他播客上谈到这样一个事实：睡个好觉是心理健康、身体健康和表现的基础。
When we aren't getting great sleep on a consistent basis, everything suffers.
当我们不能持续获得良好的睡眠时，一切都会受到影响。
And when we are sleeping well and enough, our mental health, physical health, and performance in all endeavors improve markedly.
当我们睡眠充足且良好时，我们的心理健康、身体健康和所有努力的表现都会显着改善。
Now, the mattress you sleep on makes a huge difference in the quality of sleep that you get each night.
现在，您所睡的床垫会对您每晚的睡眠质量产生巨大影响。
How soft it is or how firm it is all play into your comfort and need to be tailored to your unique sleep needs.
它的柔软度或硬度都会影响您的舒适度，并且需要根据您独特的睡眠需求进行定制。
If you go to the Helix website, you can take a brief two-minute quiz, and it will ask you questions such as, do you sleep on your back, your side, or your stomach?
如果你访问 Helix 网站，你可以做一个两分钟的简短测验，它会问你一些问题，比如你是仰卧、侧卧还是俯卧？
Maybe you know, maybe you don't.
也许你知道，也许你不知道。
Do you tend to run hot or cold during the night?
你晚上容易感到热还是冷？
Things of that sort.
诸如此类的事情。
You answer those questions, and Helix will match you to the ideal mattress for you.
您回答这些问题，Helix 将为您匹配理想的床垫。
For me, that turned out to be the Dusk, D-U-S-K, mattress.
对我来说，这就是 Dusk、D-U-S-K 床垫。
I've been sleeping on a Dusk mattress for more than four years now, and it's been far and away the best sleep that I've ever had.
我已经在 Dusk 床垫上睡了四年多了，这无疑是我睡过的最好的睡眠。
If you'd like to try Helix, you can go to helixsleep.com/huberman, take that two-minute sleep quiz, and Helix will match you to a mattress that's customized for you.
如果您想尝试 Helix，可以访问 helixsleep.com/huberman，参加两分钟的睡眠测验，Helix 将为您匹配专为您定制的床垫。
Right now, Helix is giving up to 27% off their entire site.
目前，Helix 整个网站提供高达 27% 的折扣。
Helix has also teamed up with TrueMed, which allows you to use your HSA, FSA dollars to shop Helix's award-winning mattresses.
Helix 还与 TrueMed 合作，允许您使用 HSA、FSA 美元购买 Helix 屡获殊荣的床垫。
Again, that's helixsleep.com/huberman to get up to 27% off.
再次强调，helixsleep.com/huberman 提供高达 27% 的折扣。
In your work or in your observation or in your curiosity, what other foods are kind of intriguing to you?
在您的工作、观察或好奇心中，还有哪些其他食物对您来说很有趣？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Someone had a really great question for me at the Obesity Society meeting a couple of years ago.
几年前，在肥胖协会会议上，有人向我提出了一个非常好的问题。
I was showing data that we had just obtained in the lab that showed that if you eat foods later in the day, your fat oxidation is reduced.
我展示了我们刚刚在实验室获得的数据，这些数据表明，如果您在当天晚些时候吃东西，您的脂肪氧化就会减少。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
So this is a study that we're doing.
这是我们正在进行的一项研究。
We had participants on a controlled diet, and they started eating one hour after waking up, and they had a 10-hour eating window.
我们让参与者控制饮食，他们在醒来一小时后开始进食，并且有 10 小时的进食窗口。
Or they started eating five hours after waking up, so four-hour delay-
或者他们在起床五个小时后开始进食，所以延迟了四个小时——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
relative to the other condition.
相对于其他条件。
Again, same thing for a 10-hour window.
同样，对于 10 小时的窗口也是如此。
We gave our participants the exact same foods.
我们给参与者提供了完全相同的食物。
Same foods, same quantity, same timing between meals.
相同的食物、相同的数量、相同的两餐时间。
And this was done in a metabolic chamber.
这是在代谢室中完成的。
And the meals, especially the meals later in the day that were consumed late relative to the earlier version of those meals, led to less fat oxidation.
而这些膳食，尤其是当天晚些时候的膳食，相对于较早的膳食而言，吃得晚的膳食会导致脂肪氧化减少。
And someone in the audience Stood up and said, "So would you then recommend that people eat medium-chain triglycerides in their evening meal as opposed to a different type of fat?" And my eyes just went like this because my time studying medium-chain triglycerides was 15 to 20 years ago.
观众中有人站起来说：“那么您会建议人们在晚餐中吃中链甘油三酯，而不是其他类型的脂肪吗？”我的眼睛就是这样，因为我研究中链甘油三酯的时间是 15 到 20 年前。
I was like, "Wow, this person knows that work that I've done and now is applying it to this work that I'm doing currently." And I thought that was fascinating.
我当时想，“哇，这个人知道我所做的工作，现在正在将其应用到我目前正在做的工作中。”我认为这很有趣。
And I think that timing of intake of different foods and how it influences metabolism is something that's fascinating to me.
我认为摄入不同食物的时间以及它如何影响新陈代谢对我来说很有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I confess, I'm a first bite of food around 11:00 a.m.
我承认，我是在上午 11:00 左右吃第一口食物。
person.
人。
I'm trying to eat breakfast these days and then shift things earlier.
这些天我试着吃早餐，然后把事情提早一些。
All it's really done is added a meal because I take my last bite of food usually around 8:00 p.m.
真正要做的只是添加一顿饭，因为我通常在晚上 8:00 左右吃最后一口食物。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I just can't seem to get much earlier.
我似乎无法早到很多。
But I and many other people have wondered whether it's best to eat more towards early day or whether or not it's just overall caloric load.
但我和许多其他人都想知道，是否最好在清晨吃得更多，或者是否只是总体热量负荷。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're saying that it does indeed make a difference.
你是说这确实有所作为。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
It makes a difference, yeah.
这很重要，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You want to shift most of your caloric intake to the first two-thirds of your waking day?
您想将大部分热量摄入转移到醒来一天的前三分之二吗？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Roughly.
大约。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As opposed to the last two-thirds.
与最后三分之二相反。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So in that study, one hour after waking up, so let's say basically 8:00 a.m.
在那项研究中，起床后一小时，假设基本上是上午 8:00。
to 6:00 p.m.-
至下午 6:00-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
is our eating window.
是我们的饮食窗口。
This is a 10-hour eating window.
这是一个 10 小时的进食窗口。
It's short.
很短。
It's not typical.
这不典型。
So it could be 8:00 a.m.
所以可能是上午 8:00
to 7:00 p.m.
至晚上 7:00
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That seems pretty-
看起来很漂亮-
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
That's reasonable.
这是合理的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Versus 12:00 p.m.
与中午 12:00 相比
to 10:00 p.m.
至晚上 10:00
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The New York schedule.
纽约时间表。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
The New York schedule.
纽约时间表。
Right.
正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I sort of chuckle because when I go to New York, it's like if you go to dinner at 5:30, 6:00, you're alone in the restaurant.
嗯，我有点笑，因为当我去纽约时，就像如果你在 5:30、6:00 去吃晚饭，餐厅里就只有你一个人。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
It's...
这是...
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Depends on time of year.
取决于一年中的时间。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Early bird special.
早鸟特惠。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It depends on time of year.
这取决于一年中的时间。
In California, it's the early shifted.
在加利福尼亚州，这是最早的转变。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But that's just more reflective of culture, I think.
但我认为这更能反映文化。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In Europe, they eat very late often.
在欧洲，他们经常吃得很晚。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Depends on where.
取决于在哪里。
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
I was saying before we started, I was on a Fulbright program last year in Spain, and I would joke with my colleagues there because they eat very late.
在开始之前我就说过，去年我在西班牙参加了富布赖特项目，我会和那里的同事开玩笑，因为他们吃得很晚。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
And even the children eat very late.
就连孩子们也吃得很晚。
And I was like, "Okay, well, you feed me, then you feed the children"
我当时想，“好吧，好吧，你喂我，然后你喂孩子们”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
"Then you have your dinner." Because they could have dinner at-
“那你吃晚饭了。”因为他们可以在——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
10:00, 11:00 p.m., and the children, 8:00, 9:00 p.m., and I'm like...
晚上 10:00、晚上 11:00，还有孩子们，晚上 8:00、晚上 9:00，我就像……
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can't be good.
不可能好。
My dad's from Argentina.
我爸爸来自阿根廷。
If you go to a restaurant in Buenos Aires at 9:00 p.m., you're not going to see many people.
如果您晚上 9:00 去布宜诺斯艾利斯的一家餐馆，您不会看到很多人。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
At 11:00 p.m., you'll see people in their 70s and 80s, and they're up early the next day.
晚上 11:00，你会看到 70 多岁和 80 多岁的人，他们第二天就起得很早。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They nap in the afternoon.
他们下午小睡。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know how healthy they are as a country on average, but haven't looked at the data, but very late shifted culture.
我不知道他们作为一个国家的平均健康状况如何，但没有看过数据，但很晚才转变文化。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Well, there's been studies in Spain that have looked at timing of eating and their impact on weight management.
西班牙有一些研究探讨了进食时间及其对体重管理的影响。
I'm thinking of work by Marta Garaulet, where she showed that in her weight loss program, the participants who have lunch, so their bigger meal is lunch, who have their lunch earlier in the day have better weight loss than those who have their lunch later in the day.
我想到了 Marta Garaulet 的工作，她在她的减肥计划中表明，在她的减肥计划中，那些吃午餐的参与者，所以他们的大餐就是午餐，那些在当天早些时候吃午餐的人比那些在当天晚些时候吃午餐的人有更好的减肥效果。
So, even in those cultures where they tend to-
所以，即使在那些他们倾向于-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
eat late, they still find that eating earlier-
吃晚了，他们还是发现早点吃——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
tends to be better for you.
往往对你来说更好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I was very relieved when Alan Aragon, who I consider one of the best public educators on the topic of protein and nutrition, body recomposition, he's formally trained in this, reassured me that nowadays, there's a lot of interest in getting protein ration.
当艾伦·阿拉贡（Alan Aragon）——我认为他是蛋白质和营养、身体重组方面最好的公共教育家之一，他接受过这方面的正式培训——向我保证，现在人们对获得蛋白质配给很感兴趣时，我感到非常欣慰。
It's probably overdone a little bit, but people are striving to get more high-quality protein.
这可能有点过头了，但人们正在努力获取更多优质蛋白质。
But that except in rare circumstances where people are really trying to optimize every bit of muscle protein synthesis, 95% of the effect of getting enough protein can be accomplished by having two meals.
但除了在极少数情况下，人们确实在努力优化每一点肌肉蛋白质合成之外，95% 的摄入足够蛋白质的效果可以通过吃两顿饭来实现。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe a little snack.
也许是一点零食。
And they can be evenly distributed or unevenly distributed.
它们可以均匀分布，也可以不均匀分布。
I think a lot of people are feeling this protein pressure and like, "Oh, I got to eat another meal late in the day," or, "I have to force myself to eat breakfast," in order to get their protein ration.
我认为很多人都感受到了这种蛋白质压力，并且喜欢，“哦，我必须在当天晚些时候再吃一顿饭”，或者“我必须强迫自己吃早餐”，以便获得蛋白质配给。
It turns out the whole notion that you could only assimilate 30 grams per meal is totally false.
事实证明，每餐只能吸收 30 克的观念是完全错误的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Mm.
毫米。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It turns out you can assimilate up to 100 grams.
事实证明，您最多可以吸收 100 克。
Now, there are conditions that set that up, like exercise, et cetera, but I find that very liberating.
现在，有一些条件可以实现这一点，比如锻炼等等，但我发现这非常解放。
You could have breakfast and an early dinner-
你可以吃早餐和早晚餐-
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with a snack in the middle.
中间有一份小吃。
You could miss breakfast, have lunch, and an early dinner.
你可能会错过早餐、午餐和早晚餐。
What I'm hearing from you, however, is that you really want to avoid the big or just late dinner.
然而，我从你那里听到的是，你确实想避免吃丰盛的晚餐或晚饭。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You just don't want to eat too close to bedtime.
你只是不想在临近睡觉时间吃东西。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What about these MCTs, medium-chain triglycerides?
这些 MCT（中链甘油三酯）怎么样？
These were very popular in the health and biohacking space a few years ago, the whole bulletproof coffee notion.
几年前，这些在健康和生物黑客领域非常流行，整个防弹咖啡概念。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
MCTs, butter coffee, and that's more or less faded away.
MCT、黄油咖啡，这些或多或少已经消失了。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't see a lot of people putting oil in their coffee these days.
现在我没有看到很多人在咖啡里加油。
Or coconut.
或者椰子。
What are some of the known benefits of MCTs?
MCT 有哪些已知的好处？
Where do you find them, and what brought you to them-
你在哪里找到他们，是什么让你找到他们的——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as a research topic?
作为研究课题？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
This was a topic for my PhD dissertation.
这是我的博士论文的主题。
So yeah, my PI got a grant looking at the medium-chain triglycerides.
是的，我的 PI 获得了一笔研究中链甘油三酯的资助。
He had done prior work on this.
他之前已经做过这方面的工作。
But what we did was use purified MCT oil.
但我们所做的是使用纯化的 MCT 油。
So this is only liquid oil that contains 8 carbon and 10 carbon chain fatty acids.
所以这只是含有8个碳和10个碳链脂肪酸的液体油。
Those are not very common in our general food source, so it was purified extracted oil that we then gave our participants.
这些在我们的一般食物来源中并不常见，因此我们将纯化的提取油提供给参与者。
We had created this functional oil that contained flaxseed oil also to be able to get some omega-3 fatty acids in there.
我们创造了这种含有亚麻籽油的功能性油，也能够在其中获取一些 omega-3 脂肪酸。
We had added plant sterols because that was a big focus of my lab at McGill, plant sterols for cholesterol reduction and reduced risk of cardiovascular disease.
我们添加了植物甾醇，因为这是我在麦吉尔实验室的一个重点，植物甾醇可以降低胆固醇并降低心血管疾病的风险。
And, but the idea was to evaluate the impact on energy expenditure because the way we process medium-chain triglycerides is different than how we process long-chain triglycerides, so the 12, 14, 16, and up carbon chains.
而且，我们的想法是评估对能量消耗的影响，因为我们处理中链甘油三酯的方式与处理长链甘油三酯的方式不同，即 12、14、16 及以上碳链。
So the medium-chain triglycerides, they travel directly to the liver.
因此，中链甘油三酯直接进入肝脏。
They get metabolized.
它们会被新陈代谢。
We burn them off more readily than the long-chain triglycerides that travel across in peripheral circulation, get deposited in adipose tissue, and the sort.
我们比在外周循环中移动、沉积在脂肪组织等中的长链甘油三酯更容易燃烧掉它们。
And so what we found, we did two separate studies in men and women.
所以我们发现，我们对男性和女性进行了两项单独的研究。
In both men and women, there was an increase in thermic effect of food, so you burned slightly more calories from the meal that contained medium-chain triglycerides compared to the meal that contained your standard fat.
无论男性还是女性，食物的热效应都会增加，因此与含有标准脂肪的膳食相比，含有中链甘油三酯的膳食燃烧的卡路里略多。
For my PhD, the first study we did, we did in women, and we were trying to match the saturated fat content of the diets because medium-chain fatty acids are by default saturated.
对于我的博士学位，我们所做的第一项研究是在女性中进行的，我们试图匹配饮食中的饱和脂肪含量，因为中链脂肪酸默认是饱和的。
They're eight, zero, 10, zero.
他们是八、零、十、零。
So I said, "Okay, we are going to try to compare that to a saturated fat-matched control comparison," and we used beef tallow.
所以我说，“好吧，我们将尝试将其与饱和脂肪匹配的对照进行比较”，我们使用了牛脂。
It was a lot of beef tallow.
这是很多牛油。
Participants were not happy with that diet.
参与者对这种饮食并不满意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Did you eat it direct, like spoonfuls of beef tallow?
你是直接吃的吗，就像一勺牛脂一样？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Well, we put it onto mashed potatoes.
好吧，我们把它放在土豆泥上。
When you're doing studies like this where you're trying to control the diet and you want to isolate one aspect of it, right?
当你进行这样的研究时，你试图控制饮食，并且想要隔离其中的一个方面，对吗？
When we gave real foods, half of the total fat of the diet came from the medium chain containing, and the beef tallow-
当我们提供真正的食物时，饮食中总脂肪的一半来自含有中链的脂肪，而牛脂-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, my goodness
哦，我的天哪
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
so it's like 20% of your fat from one of the two, so you have to pour it, mask it somehow.
所以你的脂肪的 20% 来自两者之一，所以你必须倒掉它，以某种方式掩盖它。
And-
还有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The MCT?
MCT？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
MCT-
MCT-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's also this issue about laxative effect of MCT oil that-
还有一个关于 MCT 油的通便作用的问题：
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
We had a few participants who initially felt a lot of gargling, like just-
我们有一些参与者最初感到经常漱口，就像-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
gargling from their stomach from consuming MCT because it was a lot early on.
由于食用 MCT 的时间太早，他们会从胃里漱口。
It resolves.
它解决了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
So after a few days, it was fine.
于是过了几天就没事了。
It was a one-week...
那是一个星期...
One month, I mean, four-week study, so after a few days, no one dropped out for-
一个月，我的意思是，四个星期的学习，所以几天后，没有人因为——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
any GI issues.
任何胃肠道问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
That's reassuring.
这让人放心。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
So beef tallow it was initially.
最初是牛油。
Beef tallow, because it has a lot of saturated fat, is solid at room temperature, so as soon as your food started to get a little colder, it would kind of gel on your plate.
牛脂含有大量饱和脂肪，在室温下呈固体状，因此一旦食物开始变冷，它就会在盘子上形成凝胶。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah, it's sort of like if you bring french fries home from a restaurant-
是的，这有点像你从餐馆带炸薯条回家-
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
they use tallow, and then you put it in the fridge because you thought you wanted them as leftovers, and the next day, they're sort of like in this stuck to bottom of container configuration.
他们使用牛脂，然后你把它放进冰箱，因为你认为你想要它们作为剩菜，第二天，它们有点像粘在容器底部的配置。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it's not very appetizing.
是啊，不是很开胃。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Not appealing, no.
没有吸引力，不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No.
不。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
There's like, it's white all underneath it.
好像，下面都是白色的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, that almost always goes into the trash.
是的，几乎总是被扔进垃圾桶。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
For sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
A couple of women felt it gave them headache.
一些妇女觉得这让她们头疼。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Just the smell of it.
只是它的气味。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So with the MCTs, big significant increase in thermic effect of food?
那么，使用 MCT 后，食物的热效应会显着增加吗？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
That was statistically significant, yeah.
这是统计上显着的，是的。
It was about 45 to 50, 60 calories.
大约是45到50、60卡路里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, I thought you were going to say percent increase.
哦，我以为你会说增加百分比。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
No, no, no.
不，不，不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, okay.
哦，好吧。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
So it's a small change.
所以这是一个很小的改变。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
But it was, if you're going to use this versus that-
但如果你要使用这个与那个——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
you're getting a little boost here.
你在这里得到了一点提升。
If you repeat this a few times in a day, because when we measured the thermic effect of food, we measured it only over one meal.
如果你一天重复几次这个，因为当我们测量食物的热效应时，我们只在一顿饭中测量它。
But repeated over three meals per day over a certain period of time, we did find changes in body composition, improvements in weight status with medium chain triglyceride consumption.
但在一段时间内重复每天三餐，我们确实发现身体成分发生变化，体重状况随着中链甘油三酯的消耗而改善。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Lean mass to fat mass ratio.
瘦体重与脂肪质量之比。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Fat mass, yeah.
脂肪量，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
And then we did follow-up study of a weight loss study with medium chain triglyceride.
然后我们对中链甘油三酯的减肥研究进行了后续研究。
This time around, it was just purified MCT oil, not added with other types, versus olive oil, which is much more acceptable, and found greater weight loss with MCT.
这次，它只是纯化的 MCT 油，没有添加其他类型的油，与更容易接受的橄榄油相比，MCT 的减肥效果更好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Based on what you're saying, it's reasonable if somebody wants to improve weight loss.
根据你的说法，如果有人想改善减肥效果，这是合理的。
I'm hearing a sort of a constellation of things.
我听到了一系列的事情。
Shift your meal timing to in the first two thirds or so of your day, which sounds like it will also improve sleep, which will also improve-
将进餐时间改为一天的前三分之二左右，这听起来也会改善睡眠，从而改善-
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Your ability, yeah
你的能力，是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
appetite and food regulation, satiety and hunger-
食欲和食物调节、饱腹感和饥饿感-
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
signals.
信号。
What is it, like a tablespoon or two of MCT per day?
它是什么，比如每天一两汤匙 MCT？
Is that kind of what this looks like for the typical person?
这就是典型人的样子吗？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah, about that.
是的，关于那件事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
In our weight loss studies.
在我们的减肥研究中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In place of some other oil-
代替一些其他油-
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
not in addition.
不另外。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Not in addition, correct.
不是另外，正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Some ginger.
一些生姜。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are they additive?
它们是添加剂吗？
Are they synergistic?
它们有协同作用吗？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
I think they could probably be additive because I think that the impact is through different mechanisms.
我认为它们可能是累加性的，因为我认为影响是通过不同的机制产生的。
Obviously, no one's tested that.
显然，没有人测试过这一点。
It's interesting you bring it up this way because it makes me think of David Jenkins and the portfolio diet.
你这样提出来很有趣，因为这让我想起了大卫·詹金斯和投资组合饮食。
It actually made The New York Times, I think last in December, November.
它实际上登上了《纽约时报》，我想是去年 12 月、11 月。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not familiar with it.
我对此并不熟悉。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
The portfolio diet was a diet he designed for maximal cholesterol reduction.
组合饮食是他为最大限度降低胆固醇而设计的饮食。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
So it was initially designed to have four specific foods.
所以它最初被设计为有四种特定的食物。
So it was high in soy protein, nuts, plant sterols, and soluble fiber.
因此，它富含大豆蛋白、坚果、植物甾醇和可溶性纤维。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it's going to be a tough one to get past most of the American public.
是的，要通过大多数美国公众的考验将是一件困难的事。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
And-
还有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'll tell you as a public health educator, I don't care if it comes out in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal- ...
我会告诉你，作为一名公共卫生教育者，我不在乎它是否出现在《纽约时报》、《华尔街日报》上——......
The New Yorker, and everything in between.
《纽约客》，以及介于两者之间的一切。
People hear soy-
人们听到大豆——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
nuts, they like, but easy to overeat.
他们喜欢坚果，但很容易吃得过多。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They hear plant sterols and like they're someplace else.
他们听到植物甾醇就像在其他地方一样。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
This diet went on a head-to-head comparison with lipid-lowering agent, right?
这个饮食与降脂剂进行了正面对比，对吧？
Like a statin.
就像他汀类药物一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like a statin.
就像他汀类药物一样。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
They had the same cholesterol reduction as a statin.
他们与他汀类药物具有相同的胆固醇降低作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As a statin.
作为他汀类药物。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The portfolio diet.
投资组合饮食。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting name.
有趣的名字。
People are definitely unhealthy in this country, and if they can lower blood lipids-
这个国家的人肯定不健康，如果能降血脂——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
They've expanded it to To be more flexible.
他们将其扩展为更加灵活。
So it's not just soy protein now, it also includes legumes.
所以现在不仅仅是大豆蛋白，还包括豆类。
They've added monounsaturated fats, so olive oil.
他们添加了单不饱和脂肪，即橄榄油。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When I look at a diet like the portfolio diet, which I only know what you just told me about it, or I think about the current food suggestions by the FTA.
当我看到像组合饮食这样的饮食时，我只知道你刚才告诉我的内容，或者我会考虑自由贸易协定当前的食物建议。
We could call it kind of...
我们可以称之为...
It emphasizes unprocessed and minimally processed foods.
它强调未加工和最低限度加工的食品。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I think that's a step in the right direction, certainly.
所以我认为这当然是朝着正确方向迈出的一步。
When you look at these, the issue that always comes up for me is I think, okay, in a more plant-based, grain-heavy nut diet, it's very easy for people to overeat calories based on this whole amino acid protein foraging hypothesis.
当你看到这些时，我总是想到的问题是，我认为，好吧，在更多以植物为基础、以谷物为主的坚果饮食中，基于整个氨基酸蛋白质觅食假说，人们很容易摄入过量卡路里。
This idea that we eat until we get enough of the amino acids we want.
这个想法是我们吃东西直到获得足够我们想要的氨基酸。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like a chicken breast or something, and a couple eggs, or four eggs or something is very satiating.
像一个鸡胸肉什么的，再加上几个鸡蛋，或者四个鸡蛋什么的就很饱了。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Whereas we can eat a lot of grains and nuts before we go, "Okay, that's enough." There seems to be this issue, how do you ensure cardiometabolic health-
虽然我们在出发前可以吃很多谷物和坚果，但“好吧，够了。”好像有这个问题，如何保证心脏代谢健康——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
while quelling hunger?
同时消除饥饿？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We can't have people walking around hungry all the time.
我们不能让人们一直饿着肚子走来走去。
And the GLPs help with that.
GLP 对此有所帮助。
And it does get down to sort of like, do you include animal-based foods or not often.
它确实可以归结为，你是否经常添加动物性食品。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So how do you think, just from a public health perspective, that we can reconcile this?
那么，仅从公共卫生的角度来看，您认为我们如何协调这一问题呢？
Because clearly the highly processed food diet is not going to work.
因为显然，高度加工食品的饮食是行不通的。
The standard American diet-
美国标准饮食——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I think that is fading away.
我认为这种情况正在消失。
But now there's this kind of polarization of like, are we going to go mostly plants, grains, nuts, and I think low saturated fat, blood lipids improving, or are we going to think more protein satiety?
但现在存在这种两极分化，我们是否会主要吃植物、谷物、坚果，我认为低饱和脂肪，血脂会改善，还是我们会考虑更多的蛋白质饱腹感？
Do you see where I'm getting at here?
你明白我的意思了吗？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I feel like this is the contour of things.
我觉得这就是事物的轮廓。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, I think that there's no reason to pit one another against the other, right?
好吧，我认为没有理由互相对抗，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
So like this one-on-one.
就像这样一对一的。
But what's important is that also having a diet that's more plant-based and is higher volume, that's filling.
但重要的是，饮食以植物为主、摄入量更大，这样才能有饱腹感。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
It's hard to eat a lot of food.
吃很多食物是很困难的。
So if your food volume is high but does not provide as much calories, you'll get that satiety from the food volume, and then you put in some nuts.
因此，如果你的食物量很大，但不能提供那么多的热量，你会从食物量中获得饱腹感，然后再加入一些坚果。
Helps to prolong the satiety because then you get some protein, some healthful fats.
有助于延长饱腹感，因为这样你就可以获得一些蛋白质和一些健康的脂肪。
And so I think that's important.
所以我认为这很重要。
I'm not saying animal products are bad.
我并不是说动物产品不好。
I think they're important for a diet.
我认为它们对于饮食很重要。
I think they're important for health.
我认为它们对健康很重要。
It's just a matter of portion size and making sure that there's not overemphasis on animal products over plant-based products because we know that plant-based products are so much healthier in terms of heart health, reduction of type 2 diabetes, cancer risk, and other metabolic diseases.
这只是份量大小的问题，并确保不要过分强调动物产品而不是植物产品，因为我们知道植物产品在心脏健康、减少 2 型糖尿病、癌症风险和其他代谢疾病方面更加健康。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, I'm right there with you.
嗯，我就在你身边。
I love fruits and vegetables.
我喜欢水果和蔬菜。
I'm a huge fan of...
我是...的超级粉丝
I do eat meat, half Argentine, and chicken, and I'm not a big fan of fish.
我确实吃肉，一半是阿根廷肉，还有鸡肉，但我不太喜欢吃鱼。
I keep working on this, but can't seem to quite get there.
我一直在努力解决这个问题，但似乎还不能完全实现。
But I don't eat them in excess.
但我不会吃过量。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The things that I feel are very, very easy for people to overeat are starch-fat or starch-sugar-fat combinations.
我觉得人们非常非常容易吃得过多的是淀粉-脂肪或淀粉-糖-脂肪的组合。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's just like the brain and gut respond with signals that scream "more."
就像大脑和肠道会发出尖叫“更多”的信号一样。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's very hard for people to do like a slice of pizza.
人们很难做到像一片披萨那样。
I love pizza.
我喜欢披萨。
It can be done, but it's just very hard for people to do.
这是可以做到的，但是对于人们来说很难做到。
It's like the stop signals just-
就像停止信号一样——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
are all pushed down and the-
都被推倒了——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
go signals are all go.
go 信号全部 go。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
So reducing white foods as much as possible is what I-
所以尽可能减少白色食物就是我-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
White foods?
白色食物？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So the white flour, white rice, white pasta, things that are-
所以白面粉、白米、白面食，这些东西——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
not as colorful.
没有那么丰富多彩。
If you're eating a slice of bread and it just dissolves in your mouth, then-
如果你正在吃一片面包，它就在你嘴里溶解了，那么——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's sugar.
这是糖。
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
not so good.
不太好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is more of an editorial reflection again, but it's also I was looking at the history of nutrition in this country.
这更多的是一次社论反思，但这也是我在研究这个国家的营养史。
You're Canadian by birth-
你出生时就是加拿大人-
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
right?
对吗？
I detected that.
我发现了这一点。
And I don't know what the sort of traditional fare is in Canada, but if you look at the history of food in the United States, it's never been particularly healthy.
我不知道加拿大的传统食物是什么，但如果你看看美国的食物历史，就会发现它从来都不是特别健康。
The foods that we consider American foods, like hamburgers, hot dogs, french fries-
我们认为美国食品的食品，如汉堡包、热狗、炸薯条——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
corn dogs, fried chicken, donuts.
玉米热狗、炸鸡、甜甜圈。
We've never been healthy about food.
我们从来没有对食物保持健康。
People probably just moved a lot, ate less, smoked a lot more, which is an appetite suppressant but gives you cancer, kills you.
人们可能只是经常运动，吃得更少，抽烟更多，这是一种食欲抑制剂，但却会导致癌症，甚至致命。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We've never been that healthy with respect to food.
我们在食物方面从未如此健康。
Maybe food volume was more in check, but if you look at traditional food in Europe, probably in Canada, are the foods nourishing and healthy?
也许食物的数量受到了更多的控制，但如果你看看欧洲（可能是加拿大）的传统食物，这些食物是否营养和健康？
I think we're sort of in this delusion that we were once healthy about food in this country.
我认为我们有一种错觉，以为这个国家的食物曾经是健康的。
We were never healthy about food.
我们对食物从来都不健康。
The food was always pretty weak in terms of nutritional status, except for fruits, vegetables, and some animal products.
除了水果、蔬菜和一些动物产品外，食物的营养状况一直很差。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I think portion size has a lot to do with it, too.
我认为份量大小也有很大关系。
So I know, moving from Canada to the US, go to a restaurant and the portion sizes are so big.
所以我知道，从加拿大搬到美国，去一家餐馆，份量很大。
It would never have occurred to me to take home a doggie bag at a restaurant, ever.
我从来没有想过在餐馆里带一个打包袋回家。
And then here, it's like you kind of have to or else you're throwing away half your plate, unless you're finishing the whole thing.
然后在这里，就像你必须这样做，否则你就会扔掉一半的盘子，除非你把整个盘子吃完。
So portion size I think is a big one.
所以我认为份量很大。
And also, the foods are different in a way.
而且，食物在某种程度上也有所不同。
We were talking about yogurt.
我们正在谈论酸奶。
So there are two things.
所以有两件事。
When I moved to the US, the first thing the dietician at my work told me was, "Do not buy bagged bread." I was like, "Okay.
当我搬到美国时，我工作的营养师告诉我的第一句话就是“不要买袋装面包”。我当时想，“好吧。
What does that mean, don't buy bagged bread?
不要买袋装面包是什么意思？
That's what I always do." "No," she says, "You go to the grocery store, you go to the bakery section, they'll cut it up for you.
这就是我一直做的事情。” “不，”她说，“你去杂货店，你去面包店，他们会帮你切的。
You ask what you want.
你问你想要什么。
Don't buy bagged bread." Like, "Okay, I'm not going to buy bagged bread." So apparently, she was talking about too many additives, too much sugar, whatever.
不要买袋装面包。”就像，“好吧，我不会买袋装面包。”显然，她说的是太多的添加剂，太多的糖，等等。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Okay.
好的。
We're talking about the bread that just melts in your mouth.
我们谈论的是在嘴里融化的面包。
And then the other thing was yogurt.
然后另一件事是酸奶。
I eat yogurt quite a bit And then the yogurt here in the US tasted sweeter to me.
我经常吃酸奶，然后美国的酸奶对我来说更甜。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
The same thing, the same yogurt.
同样的东西，同样的酸奶。
Canada, here, the same name, the same everything.
加拿大，在这里，同样的名字，同样的一切。
It was sweeter, and I didn't know why, but then it occurred to me that foods are formulated in different ways in different countries to appeal to the population of that country.
它更甜，我不知道为什么，但后来我想到，不同国家的食物以不同的方式配制，以吸引该国的人口。
So yogurt was one where it's a little less sweet in Canada than in the US, and it was less sweet even in Europe than Canada and the US.
因此，加拿大的酸奶比美国的酸奶甜度要低一些，甚至在欧洲的酸奶也比加拿大和美国的甜度低。
So there's things like that that don't necessarily help.
所以类似的事情不一定有帮助。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
We love our sugars and fats in the United States, and I think we paid a substantial health debt as a consequence.
在美国，我们热爱糖和脂肪，我认为我们因此付出了巨大的健康债务。
Now, again, I don't have the numbers on this, but with retatrutide and the other GLPs, I've never tried them, but a lot of people are finding it much easier, if not easy, to lose weight that they-
现在，再说一次，我没有这方面的数据，但对于瑞他鲁肽和其他 GLP，我从未尝试过它们，但很多人发现减肥更容易，即使不容易，因为他们-
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
just couldn't before.
只是以前不能。
They just could not control their appetite.
他们就是无法控制自己的食欲。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they're just not as interested in these foods.
他们只是对这些食物不那么感兴趣。
There's this argument that maybe they're not as interested in everything in life, and that's a important question that needs to be resolved.
有人认为，也许他们对生活中的一切都不那么感兴趣，这是一个需要解决的重要问题。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
But I do think that things are changing.
但我确实认为事情正在发生变化。
I think we're finding a lot more, for example, the yogurt, right?
我想我们还发现了更多东西，例如酸奶，对吧？
There is a lot more plain yogurt options than there were-
原味酸奶的选择比以前多得多-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
when I first moved to the US.
当我第一次搬到美国时。
So there's things.
所以有一些事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Things are changing.
事情正在发生变化。
There's been a lot of resistance, and I think that the resistance has been sociological in the sense that there's been a resistance to people being healthy.
有很多阻力，我认为这种阻力是社会学的，因为人们对健康存在阻力。
There really has.
确实有。
There's this idea that if you're eating clean, you have an eating disorder.
有一种观点认为，如果你吃得干净，你就会患有饮食失调症。
I did an episode about eating disorders.
我做了一个关于饮食失调的剧集。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I talked to a lot of experts on this, including the group at Columbia Med that works on eating disorders.
我就此问题与很多专家进行了交谈，其中包括哥伦比亚医学中心研究饮食失调的小组。
The frequency of anorexia, the most deadly psychiatric illness of all the psychiatric illnesses, hadn't realized that, is not-
厌食症是所有精神疾病中最致命的精神疾病，但人们并没有意识到，厌食症的发病率并不是——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
increasing as a function of social media or magazines or anything.
随着社交媒体或杂志或其他任何东西的功能而增加。
It's been very steady for maybe hundreds of years.
也许几百年来它一直非常稳定。
It's a real neurological issue.
这是一个真正的神经问题。
There's obviously social pressures and things like that, but what I discovered in talking to experts like Joanna Steinberg at Columbia and others, is that there is this...
显然存在社会压力和类似的事情，但我在与哥伦比亚大学的乔安娜斯坦伯格等专家交谈时发现，有这样的......
So that was about the anorexia, but what I'm about to say is separate.
这是关于厌食症的，但我要说的是另外的事情。
There's this notion that if you're going to be thoughtful about what you eat, or maybe you're not going to eat too late, or you're going to skip dessert, or until a few years ago, if you're not going to drink alcohol, there's something wrong with you.
有一种观念认为，如果你要仔细考虑自己吃的东西，或者你不会吃得太晚，或者你打算不吃甜点，或者直到几年前你才不喝酒，那么你就有问题了。
That you're being restrictive somehow.
你在某种程度上受到限制。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think, again, it's the parallels to Europe are interesting, or the contrast to Europe are interesting, where there's a lot of social convention built up around food that was healthy.
我再次认为，与欧洲的相似之处很有趣，或者与欧洲的对比很有趣，欧洲有很多围绕健康食品建立的社会习俗。
And I think in the United States, the social conventions built up around food and alcohol were pretty unhealthy.
我认为在美国，围绕食物和酒精建立的社会习俗是相当不健康的。
It was like, "Everyone does this.
就像是，“每个人都这样做。
Everyone eats hot dogs at the game." And hot dogs at a baseball game are a great thing.
比赛时每个人都吃热狗。”棒球比赛中的热狗是一件很棒的事情。
It's like nothing as American as that, except maybe apple pie, right?
除了苹果派之外，没有什么比这更美国的了，对吧？
But when people start making choices in the direction of their health, it was, and to some extent it still is, there's this quieter undercurrent of, well, are you being restrictive?
但是，当人们开始朝着健康的方向做出选择时，过去是这样，在某种程度上现在仍然是这样，有一种更安静的暗流，嗯，你有限制吗？
Are you really going to live like that?
你真的要这样生活吗？
But then you look at the health outcomes.
但接下来你会看到健康结果。
And culturally, until a few years ago, it was considered very not okay to say that obesity was a health risk.
从文化上来说，直到几年前，说肥胖是一种健康风险还被认为是非常不合适的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And now the open discussion about obesity and metabolic health as a real health risk-
现在，关于肥胖和代谢健康作为真正的健康风险的公开讨论-
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I think now we're in the actual discussion that for a long time it was like, eh.
我想现在我们正在进行实际的讨论，很长一段时间都是这样，呃。
Speaking of which, and things outside the box, there's a paper on your CV that I could not help but ask about.
说到这里，以及一些不寻常的事情，你的简历上有一篇论文，我忍不住要问一下。
Snack chips fried- ...
油炸零食薯条——...
in corn oil alleviate-
玉米油可缓解-
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
cardiovascular risk factors when substituted for low-fat and high-fat snacks.
替代低脂和高脂零食时的心血管危险因素。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What?
什么？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What?
什么？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Tell me the data.
告诉我数据。
I believe you, I'm just like, this is wild.
我相信你，我只是想，这太疯狂了。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
This was funded by Frito-Lay.
该项目由菲多利 (Frito-Lay) 资助。
At that time, they had changed the oil that they were using to fry their corn chips.
当时他们炸玉米片的油已经换了。
So this was Doritos, Fritos, Cheetos, and just Titos.
这就是多力多滋、炸薯条、奇多，还有铁多滋。
It was all the tos.
这就是所有的条款。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Itos.
伊托斯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All the itos.
所有的伊托斯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
All the itos.
所有的伊托斯。
And so they had changed to corn oil.
所以他们改用玉米油。
They're like, "This is an oil that's higher in polyunsaturated fats than what we usually have."
他们就像是，“这种油的多不饱和脂肪含量比我们通常拥有的要高。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What were they using before?
他们之前用的是什么？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
I'm not sure.
我不确定。
I forget.
我忘记了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it wasn't tallow?
但这不是牛脂吗？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
I don't think so.
我不这么认为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
They're like, "Does it make a difference?
他们会说，“这有什么不同吗？
Is it going to improve health if people choose those snacks compared to other snacks?" So we had three arms in that study.
与其他零食相比，如果人们选择这些零食会改善健康吗？”所以我们在那项研究中分了三个组。
Each person went through each of the three arms.
每个人都经历了三个手臂中的每一个。
It was for 25 days.
已经持续了25天。
The question was, okay, let's say you have a choice for a snack today, and you're going to go to the vending machine, and you have your option to eat a low-fat, high carbohydrate snack, a high fat, high saturated snack, or those chips.
问题是，好吧，假设你今天可以选择一种零食，你要去自动售货机，你可以选择吃低脂肪、高碳水化合物的零食、高脂肪、高饱和的零食，或者那些薯片。
So you just pick one, and that's that.
所以你只需选择一个，就这样。
So I think we gave, it was two snacks a day for 25 days.
所以我认为我们每天提供两份零食，持续 25 天。
It was a rotation, so they had four different chips.
这是一个轮换，所以他们有四种不同的筹码。
So it was two one day, two the next day, like that for 25 days, and then the controls.
所以一天两次，第二天两次，这样持续 25 天，然后是对照。
And yeah, the better lipid profile was the one from the corn chips.
是的，更好的脂质分布是来自玉米片的脂质分布。
They had the better lipid.
他们有更好的脂质。
Yeah.
是的。
And they had less lipoprotein little a, which is another factor.
而且他们的脂蛋白小a较少，这是另一个因素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Cardio metabolic risk factor.
心脏代谢危险因素。
But yeah.
但是是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Data are data.
数据就是数据。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Data are data.
数据就是数据。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I know that in the head-to-head comparison of seed oils, of which corn is, right?
好吧，我知道在种子油的头对头比较中，玉米属于哪一种，对吧？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
With saturated fat-
含有饱和脂肪-
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
this is where the contention starts to erupt.
这就是争论开始爆发的地方。
Where there are many studies now, I think, showing that when you substitute saturated fat with seed oils, that cardiometabolic ...
我认为，现在有很多研究表明，当你用种子油替代饱和脂肪时，心脏代谢......
risk factors go down, and this is true, right?
风险因素下降，这是真的，对吗？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, by the way, I'm just going to say, I avoid seed oils actively because I like olive oil and butter.
好吧，顺便说一句，我只想说，我积极避免使用种子油，因为我喜欢橄榄油和黄油。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mostly olive oil.
主要是橄榄油。
I avoid seed oils.
我避免使用种子油。
I don't like the way they taste.
我不喜欢他们的味道。
I love olive oil.
我喜欢橄榄油。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there's some health effects of olive oil.
橄榄油对健康有一些影响。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I eat small amounts of butter.
我吃少量的黄油。
And, so I just duck the whole controversy, right?
而且，所以我只是回避整个争议，对吧？
And you have to make sure you're getting real olive oil, but that can be done.
你必须确保你得到的是真正的橄榄油，但这是可以做到的。
When you look at the studies that compare saturated fat to seed oils, you do see better outcomes for seed oils.
当您查看将饱和脂肪与种子油进行比较的研究时，您确实会发现种子油的效果更好。
But then there's this crowd that comes in and says, "But that's on a backdrop of reasonably high carbohydrate intake." When you start replacing some of those carbohydrates with lower carbohydrate diet, increasing protein intake, so not keto, but kind of like lower-ish-
但随后就有一群人进来说：“但这是在碳水化合物摄入量相当高的背景下发生的。”当你开始用低碳水化合物饮食代替一些碳水化合物时，增加蛋白质摄入量，所以不是酮，而是有点像低碳水化合物-
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
starch and sugar, then maybe that balances out okay.
淀粉和糖，那么也许就可以平衡了。
But the big contention seems to be around the processing of these seed oils, this idea that when, especially when you make things like chips, that when you take fats and you combine them with carbohydrate and you heat them up a lot, that you create factors that are not good for the body.
但最大的争论似乎是围绕这些种子油的加工，这种想法是，当你制作薯片之类的东西时，当你将脂肪与碳水化合物结合起来并大量加热时，你就会产生对身体不利的因素。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What is the evidence for or against that?
支持或反对这一点的证据是什么？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Well, so different oils have different smoke points, right?
嗯，不同的油有不同的烟点，对吗？
So each oil should be used for its appropriate usage, right?
那么每种油都应该用于其适当的用途，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
So cooking process.
所以烹饪过程。
So I think that's where people think that they should be using one type of oil for everything that they do.
所以我认为这就是人们认为他们应该使用一种油来完成他们所做的一切的地方。
But you wouldn't put flaxseed oil, for example, and heat it up to a very high temperature.
但是，例如，您不会放入亚麻籽油，并将其加热到非常高的温度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are you a fan of flaxseed oil?
您是亚麻籽油的粉丝吗？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
I'm a fan of every liquid oil.
我是每一种液体油的粉丝。
I have no personal-
我没有个人-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You seem very healthy
你看起来很健康
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
restriction on the
的限制
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Uh-huh
嗯嗯
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
on the types of oils.
关于油的类型。
I think that oils that remain liquid at room temperature, that should be your barometer for what's better to use.
我认为在室温下保持液态的油应该是您更好使用的晴雨表。
I'm also not saying that people should avoid butter like the plague, right?
我也不是说人们应该像躲避瘟疫一样避开黄油，对吧？
So all in moderation is okay.
所以凡事适度就好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is there any reason to...
有什么理由...
I just can't find the argument for why anyone would replace olive oil with a seed oil.
我只是找不到为什么有人会用种子油代替橄榄油的论据。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Olive oil has a lower smoke point than other seed oils.
橄榄油的烟点比其他种子油低。
So peanut oil, for example, has a higher smoke point, so you can fry in peanut oil.
所以比如说花生油，它的烟点比较高，所以可以用花生油来煎炸。
You wouldn't fry anything in olive oil.
你不会用橄榄油煎炸任何东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I wouldn't eat anything fried.
我不会吃任何油炸的东西。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Well.
好吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
So that's
所以那就是
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
That's a different question.
这是一个不同的问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I value my life.
我珍惜我的生命。
No, I love it.
不，我喜欢它。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
So depending on how you want to use your oil.
所以这取决于你想如何使用你的油。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Then, also some people find olive oil in baked goods might impart stronger taste, so depending on the type.
然后，也有人发现烘焙食品中的橄榄油可能会带来更强烈的味道，因此取决于类型。
So some of them are more flavorful, right?
那么其中一些更美味，对吗？
And so they're more fragile, let's say.
所以可以说，它们更加脆弱。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
And they'll impart flavors to different foods where they're not supposed to be.
它们还会给不同的食物带来不该有的味道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you're not seed oil averse, nor are you pro seed oil, is what I'm hearing.
所以我听说你既不反对种子油，也不支持种子油。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Personally?
就个人而言？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because I think that the seed oil debate has been very contaminated by the issues that I mentioned before, but also because many, many processed foods contain seed oil.
因为我认为关于种子油的争论已经被我之前提到的问题严重污染了，而且还因为很多很多加工食品都含有种子油。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're much less expensive than using grass-fed butter or olive oil, or even just ordinary butter.
它们比使用草饲黄油或橄榄油，甚至普通黄油要便宜得多。
So.
所以。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
It's important to be nutrition facts literate, so when you're talking about processed foods, so as much as possible, cooking at home, but that's something that a lot of people don't really know how to do, feel they don't have the time for.
了解营养成分很重要，所以当你谈论加工食品时，尽可能在家做饭，但很多人并不真正知道该怎么做，觉得他们没有时间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People aren't going to start doing that.
人们不会开始这样做。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
And then-
然后——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'll tell you, they're not going to start doing that.
我告诉你，他们不会开始这样做。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
And then I think-
然后我想——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I wish they would, but they're not going to.
我希望他们会这么做，但他们不会这么做。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
At the grocery store, to look at the nutrition facts panel and being like, "Okay, what's in here?
在杂货店，看着营养成分表，就会想，“好吧，这里有什么？
What's in there?" And comparing products to one another, right?
里面有什么？”并将产品相互比较，对吗？
And also, what's more important for your own health.
而且，什么对您自己的健康更重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Right?
对吗？
What's relevant for my health may not be what's relevant for your health.
与我的健康相关的内容可能与您的健康无关。
Some people are...
有些人是...
We're talking about salt sensitivity.
我们正在谈论盐敏感性。
Some people are very salt sensitive.
有些人对盐非常敏感。
Some people are very active and need to replace salt, and so salt is not an issue for them.
有些人非常活跃，需要补充盐，所以盐对他们来说不是问题。
But, so being able to know what to pay attention to because otherwise it just gets overwhelming.
但是，因此能够知道要注意什么，否则就会变得不知所措。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
You mentioned the study was paid for by a company.
你提到这项研究是由一家公司支付的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And earlier you mentioned companies.
之前您提到过公司。
I think this is an important issue that we've never really directly-
我认为这是一个我们从未真正直接讨论过的重要问题-
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
addressed on this podcast.
在此播客上发表了讲话。
Anytime I've covered a paper in a...
每当我用...覆盖纸张时
Sometimes I do these solo episodes.
有时我会做这些独奏剧集。
I'll get back to them soon.
我会尽快回复他们。
I used to do a lot more of them.
我曾经做过很多这样的事情。
But I would always look, like are there financial conflicts of interest?
但我总是会想，是否存在经济利益冲突？
What's the difference between a company funding a study and a financial conflict of interest, if any?
资助研究的公司和财务利益冲突（如果有）之间有什么区别？
To me, a financial conflict of interest is if the investigators, the scientists running the study, have stakes in, they have shares in the company, or they're being paid to do the study, obviously.
对我来说，财务利益冲突是指研究人员、进行这项研究的科学家是否拥有该公司的股份、股份，或者显然他们是因为进行这项研究而获得报酬。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But when a company funds research on this, the snack chips study-
但当一家公司资助这方面的研究时，零食薯片就会研究——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that you did, I think everyone would like to assume that they don't have any, you're not feeling any, there's no explicit nor implicit pressure for a particular outcome.
你所做的，我想每个人都愿意假设他们没有任何压力，你没有任何感觉，对于特定的结果没有明确或隐含的压力。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could you...
你能不能...
How does this stuff come about?
这个东西是怎么来的？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
So I'm glad you're asking that question because that's something that people often have this knee-jerk reaction to industry-sponsored studies, and I know there are people who are very vocal against industry-sponsored research.
所以我很高兴你问这个问题，因为人们经常对行业资助的研究产生下意识的反应，而且我知道有些人非常直言不讳地反对行业资助的研究。
But as scientists, we do research, we do research to the best of our abilities, and we provide, we draft the research question, you get the data, you analyze it, you publish it.
但作为科学家，我们进行研究，我们尽我们最大的能力进行研究，我们提供，我们起草研究问题，你获取数据，你分析它，你发布它。
Some of the studies that I haven't been able to publish have been funded by industry that have had null results.
我未能发表的一些研究是由工业界资助的，但结果却是无效的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Null results.
空结果。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Null results.
空结果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
So we did a study.
所以我们做了一项研究。
It was sponsored by industry.
它是由工业界赞助的。
We didn't find any significant effect of the test product compared to the control.
与对照品相比，我们没有发现测试产品有任何显着效果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you can't publish it.
而且你不能发布它。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
We wrote the paper.
我们写了这篇论文。
We wrote the report.
我们写了报告。
We provided it to our sponsor just out of courtesy.
我们出于礼貌将其提供给赞助商。
Said, "This is the paper.
说：“这就是报纸。
We're going to submit it for publication." Do what you need to do
我们将提交它以供出版。”做你需要做的事
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So they've given you the green light to submit-
所以他们已经给你开了绿灯来提交-
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Absolutely
绝对
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
so the companies aren't short-circuiting this?
那么公司并没有对此进行短路吗？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Never.
绝不。
That's in the contract, right?
合同里有这个吧？
Your-
你的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
right to publish.
发表权。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Because otherwise, why'd you do research?
否则的话，你为什么要进行研究呢？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
There's no point doing research if you're not going to be able to publish your research.
如果您无法发表您的研究，那么进行研究就没有意义。
So, basically it's courtesy to show the paper that you're going to be submitting for publication.
因此，基本上，向您展示您将要提交发表的论文是有礼貌的。
That one paper that I'm referring to, I must have tried five different journals.
我所指的那篇论文，我一定尝试过五种不同的期刊。
But the findings are not exciting.
但研究结果并不令人兴奋。
They're showing that there's no effect on our outcomes.
他们表明这对我们的结果没有影响。
And it got rejected, rejected, rejected, rejected.
它被拒绝，拒绝，拒绝，拒绝。
And I'm pretty persistent.
而且我还蛮坚持的。
I ran out of steam.
我已经筋疲力尽了。
So if I run out of steam, I can imagine so many other people-
所以如果我精疲力尽，我可以想象还有很多其他人——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
other scientists who have null results have ran out of steam much quicker than me.
其他没有结果的科学家比我更快地失去动力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So that's a null result issue.
所以这是一个空结果问题。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
That's a null result issue.
这是一个空结果问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not necessarily unique to industry-funded studies.
这不一定是行业资助的研究所独有的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
That's not unique.
这并不独特。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
So industry sponsored studies, I often also say we get NIH reports of scientific misconduct.
因此，对于行业赞助的研究，我也经常说我们收到了美国国立卫生研究院关于科学不端行为的报告。
So reports of scientific misconduct can be found from NIH sponsored studies where they find that the principal investigator falsified data that have been published in a specific paper.
因此，科学不端行为的报告可以从 NIH 资助的研究中找到，这些研究发现主要研究者伪造了特定论文中已发表的数据。
So to me, if you're not an honest scientist, obviously I don't think it matters who's sponsoring your research because the NIH finds misconduct.
所以对我来说，如果你不是一个诚实的科学家，显然我认为谁赞助你的研究并不重要，因为国家卫生研究院发现了不当行为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Doing science for any other reason than trying to find real answers is just insane.
除了试图找到真正的答案之外，出于任何其他原因进行科学研究都是疯狂的。
These people who do this are legitimately sick.
这些这样做的人确实有病。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
It's a lot of work.
这是很多工作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
It's a lot of work.
这是很多工作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, do they really think they discovered something if they made it up?
好吧，如果他们编造的话，他们真的认为他们发现了一些东西吗？
It doesn't-
它不-
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Where is that going to go?
那要去哪里？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It doesn't compute.
它不会计算。
Well, it never ends well.
好吧，事情永远不会有好结果。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we could spend hours talking about the cases.
我们可以花几个小时讨论这些案例。
It always comes out in the wash.
它总是在洗涤中显现出来。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I'm hearing that negative outcomes are hard to publish.
所以我听说负面结果很难公布。
When you take on funding from a company to address a particular question about a product that they sell, it sounds to me, I want to be careful I'm not leading the witness here-
当你从一家公司获得资金来解决有关他们销售的产品的特定问题时，在我看来，我要小心，我不会在这里引导证人-
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that it doesn't sound like you feel any pressure to give them a particular answer.
听起来你并没有感到有任何压力要给他们一个特定的答案。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what's their interest in doing this?
那么他们这样做的兴趣是什么？
Why are they funding studies?
他们为什么资助研究？
Companies are selfish and they should be.
公司是自私的，他们也应该如此。
They have shareholders and some of them are public companies, and so the shareholders are the public.
他们有股东，其中一些是上市公司，所以股东就是公众。
And so why are they funding research?
那么他们为什么要资助研究呢？
Plenty of people eat chips.
很多人都吃薯条。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Why are they funding research?
他们为什么资助研究？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
They wanted to know if it had a health benefit.
他们想知道它是否对健康有益。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So they could market a health benefit.
这样他们就可以推销健康益处。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Probably.
可能吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Market a health benefit at some point.
在某个时候推销健康益处。
That could be.
可能是这样。
And then if they don't find a health benefit, maybe they could switch it to something else, right?
然后，如果他们找不到健康益处，也许他们可以换成其他东西，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
I don't know.
我不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm very sympathetic to the reality that there isn't a lot of research funding coming through NIH and NSF these days, but always it's been-
我非常同情这样一个现实：现在美国国立卫生研究院和国家科学基金会没有提供大量研究经费，但始终是——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
low.
低。
I know because I sat on study sections which dole out grants.
我知道，因为我坐在发放补助金的研究部分。
I got grants.
我得到了补助金。
But it's very competitive.
但它的竞争非常激烈。
Are you taking money from companies to do this work because it's a great way to fund studies?
您是否从公司那里拿钱来做这项工作，因为这是资助研究的好方法？
In other words, if NIH had more money to study nutrition-
换句话说，如果 NIH 有更多的钱来研究营养——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I could imagine a world where you would just take money from NIH to do it.
我可以想象一个你只需从 NIH 拿钱就能做到的世界。
You wouldn't need the money from companies.
你不需要公司的钱。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah, because the budgets are better-
是的，因为预算更好-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
from NIH funding-
来自 NIH 的资助-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
than from industry funding for nutrition research.
比来自营养研究的行业资助。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
But if you could get an NIH grant, that's the ultimate goal, right?
但如果你能获得 NIH 资助，那就是最终目标，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Or USDA or-
或美国农业部或-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
other government grant.
其他政府补助。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
That's the goal.
这就是目标。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
But sometimes also there's specific foods, specific products that would be kind of hard to study without industry support, because you need to get access to the specific food-
但有时也有特定的食物、特定的产品，如果没有行业的支持，就很难研究，因为你需要获得特定的食物——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
or product.
或产品。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I don't know what the status of it is right now, but my fairly frequent check-in on what the at least stated goals of the now being revised NIH-
好吧，我不知道它现在的状态是什么，但我相当频繁地检查现在正在修订的 NIH 至少规定的目标是什么-
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
are, include creating a forum, even some incentive for publishing negative results, or null results-
是，包括创建一个论坛，甚至对发布负面结果或无效结果进行一些激励-
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I should say.
我应该说。
Jay Bhattacharya, who's been on this podcast, has put that out publicly.
参与该播客的杰伊·巴塔查亚 (Jay Bhattacharya) 已将这一点公开发表。
We need those results.
我们需要这些结果。
They're important.
它们很重要。
They steer people away from certain things that need to be steered away from.
它们引导人们远离某些需要远离的事物。
And also, it seems, at least from the whole food pyramid revision, et cetera, that there seems to be more and more interest in nutrition-
而且，至少从整个食物金字塔的修订等等来看，人们似乎对营养越来越感兴趣——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as a research topic and something to really understand.
作为一个研究课题和需要真正理解的东西。
So obviously it's really important.
显然这非常重要。
People are eating every day.
人们每天都在吃饭。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're making these choices, so there should be more federal funding for these things.
他们正在做出这些选择，因此应该为这些事情提供更多的联邦资金。
And then there's no chance of bias.
然后就没有偏见的机会了。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Yeah, I think that people assume that if industry funded a study, especially on food-
是的，我认为人们认为如果工业界资助一项研究，特别是在食品方面——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that something's not to be trusted in there.
那里有一些不值得信任的东西。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
I don't know why for food in particular, right?
我不知道为什么特别是食物，对吧？
So if you think about it, there-
所以如果你想一想，就会发现——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Food and drugs.
食物和药品。
Food and drug companies.
食品和药品公司。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
But drug companies, they do research on their own products all the time.
但制药公司一直在研究自己的产品。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Most of the R&D for drug companies is definitely done in-house.
制药公司的大部分研发肯定是在内部完成的。
That's also part of the scary part about it.
这也是它的可怕之处。
We don't see the null results.
我们看不到空结果。
I actually would prefer if it took on a different shape.
实际上我更喜欢它采用不同的形状。
I don't know exactly what it would look like.
我不知道它到底会是什么样子。
We don't see a lot of the negative outcomes that might exist.
我们没有看到很多可能存在的负面结果。
So I don't think there's a lot of-
所以我不认为有很多-
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Because probably they just die out before they make it to-
因为很可能他们在到达之前就已经死了——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
next step.
下一步。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I think outright scientific fraud, people making stuff up, is pretty rare.
我认为彻底的科学欺诈、人们编造的东西是很少见的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Very rare.
非常罕见。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I do think there's a lot of questions about people because of the incentives to need to publish.
但我确实认为，由于需要发表的动机，人们存在很多问题。
As you described, it's hard to publish null results.
正如您所描述的，很难发布空结果。
We will never know, and this is when you run a lab, as you know, you want to create a culture where graduate students and post-docs feel very comfortable saying, "There's nothing here."
我们永远不会知道，正如你所知，当你经营一个实验室时，你想要创造一种文化，让研究生和博士后感到很舒服地说，“这里什么都没有。”
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because the stuff that didn't work out You always, it's just a question-
因为那些不成功的事情你总是，这只是一个问题-
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that you always have.
你总是拥有的。
Like what stuff do we never hear about?
比如哪些东西是我们从未听说过的？
Because the negative results-
因为负面的结果——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
like they say, "Well, that mouse was sick," or this or-- there's a lot of...
就像他们说的，“好吧，那只老鼠病了”，或者这个或者——有很多......
The brain is a crazy-
大脑是个疯狂的——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
thing.
事。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
That's why you need to teach the students well, right?
所以你要好好教学生，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
You have a student who comes to you and says, "Hey, this is lower, this is better than this," and you look at the numbers, and you say, "Well, it's 25 versus 27, and the standard deviation is 10." Like no, 25 is the same as 27, right?
你有一个学生来找你说，“嘿，这个更低，这个比这个更好，”你看着数字，然后说，“嗯，这是 25 比 27，标准差是 10。”就像不，25 和 27 一样，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
So you have to make sure you teach well-
所以你必须确保你教得好——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
to know that even numerically different effects may not be statistically significantly different, and that's just part of the curve, right?
要知道，即使数字上不同的效果也可能在统计上没有显着差异，而这只是曲线的一部分，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, the ideal situation is when the student or postdoc doesn't believe their own results.
是的，理想的情况是学生或博士后不相信自己的结果。
They're like, "It's not real," and then you have to convince them.
他们会说，“这不是真的”，然后你必须说服他们。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"Actually, you have something interesting." That's a good situation.
“其实，你有一些有趣的事情。”这是一个很好的情况。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah, that's a good situation.
是的，这是一个很好的情况。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a good situation.
这是一个很好的情况。
And then eventually they're like, "Oh, okay," you know?
最后他们会说，“哦，好吧，”你知道吗？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's the ideal situation.
这是理想的情况。
But I think this whole field of nutrition is contentious, for some of the right reasons.
但我认为，由于某些正确的原因，整个营养领域都存在争议。
It's so very important, and I think it's contentious also for a lot of unfortunate and unnecessary reasons.
它非常重要，而且我认为由于许多不幸和不必要的原因，它也存在争议。
Among the students and postdocs and general public when you interact, what are people most interested in with respect to nutrition?
当您与学生、博士后和公众互动时，人们对营养方面最感兴趣的是什么？
Like when people ask you, is it like, "What should I eat?
就像当人们问你“我应该吃什么？
What shouldn't I eat?" What are your antennae picking up when you're out there?
我不应该吃什么？”当你在外面时，你的天线会接收到什么？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
I think, "What should I eat?" Or, "Have you heard about XYZ fad?" That's also one.
我想：“我应该吃什么？”或者，“你听说过 XYZ 时尚吗？”那也是之一。
"Have you heard that whatever product cures everything in the world?"
“你听说过什么产品包治百病吗？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
"No, I haven't heard that."
“不，我没听说过。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
I'm surprised.
我很惊讶。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Peptides.
肽。
Are they very peptide?
它们很肽吗？
Right now, peptides are really big.
现在，肽真的很大。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
It's always something else.
总是有别的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's very specific to a product.
所以它对于产品来说是非常具体的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah, often very specific to a product, yeah.
是的，通常是针对某个产品的，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You won't be held responsible for your answer, but, do you supplement your diet with minerals like magnesium or anything like that, or are you just completely careful food choices?
您不会对您的答案负责，但是，您是否在饮食中补充了镁等矿物质或类似的东西，或者您只是完全谨慎地选择食物？
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
I prefer careful food choices.
我更喜欢仔细选择食物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
I think it's more pleasurable to eat a complete food diet.
我认为吃完整的食物饮食会更令人愉快。
That said, I think that there are some people who may need to supplement their diets, but I think people should strive to get their nutrients from whole foods.
也就是说，我认为有些人可能需要补充饮食，但我认为人们应该努力从天然食物中获取营养。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fiber recommendations are really growing.
纤维推荐确实在增加。
I looked into this and many people's doctors are now telling them, "You should take a little bit of psyllium husk." I always thought-
我对此进行了调查，许多人的医生现在告诉他们，“你应该服用一点车前子壳。”我一直以为——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
by the way, psyllium husk was like the husks, like you had to, they're like, you're going to eat the seed husks.
顺便说一句，车前子壳就像外壳一样，就像你必须的那样，它们就像，你要吃种子壳。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's actually ground into a powder or something like that.
它实际上被磨成粉末或类似的东西。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm still afraid to take it, but-
我仍然害怕接受它，但是-
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Uh-huh
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I should take a little bit of it.
我应该拿一点。
But doctors now are prescribing supplemental fiber.
但医生现在正在开补充纤维的处方。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In a pretty high rate, from what I understand.
据我了解，比率相当高。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Oh, that's interesting.
哦，这很有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People don't want to eat their fruits and vegetables.
人们不想吃水果和蔬菜。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
But they bring so much more, right?
但他们带来了更多，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
So yes, there's fiber in fruits and vegetables, but there's also all sorts of polyphenols, right?
是的，水果和蔬菜中含有纤维，但也含有各种多酚，对吗？
All sorts of non-nutrient components that themselves may have benefits for health that we don't fully understand yet, that feed your gut, that are maybe just as relevant, that may enhance fiber's impact on health.
各种非营养成分本身可能对健康有好处，但我们尚未完全了解，这些成分可以滋养您的肠道，这些成分可能同样重要，可以增强纤维对健康的影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Listen, I'm-
听着，我是——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
So you know.
所以你知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
preaching to the choir.
向唱诗班布道。
I love fruits and vegetables.
我喜欢水果和蔬菜。
Well, thank you so much for taking time out of your schedule.
好的，非常感谢您在百忙之中抽出时间。
You have a very unique research program.
你们有一个非常独特的研究计划。
I have to say, very few people can work on as many different things and find their points of intersection, and so I'm grateful that you're exploring these things.
我不得不说，很少有人能够从事如此多不同的事情并找到他们的交集，所以我很感激你正在探索这些事情。
I appreciate your openness about industry-funded research.
我感谢您对行业资助研究的开放态度。
This is something that I think people need to know about.
我认为这是人们需要了解的事情。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I certainly learned about that from you today.
我今天确实从你那里了解到了这一点。
And based on your work, I think it's fair to say that we shouldn't just be encouraging people to get great sleep.
根据您的工作，我认为可以公平地说，我们不应该只是鼓励人们获得良好的睡眠。
We should be encouraging people to eat at times and foods that allow them to get great sleep, which will allow them to make better food choices-
我们应该鼓励人们有时吃一些能让他们获得良好睡眠的食物，这将使他们能够做出更好的食物选择——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and so forth.
等等。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
So I talk often about a vicious cycle where you don't sleep well, you don't eat well-
所以我经常谈论一个恶性循环，你睡不好，吃得不好-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
...
...
then that makes you not sleep so well.
那会让你睡得不好。
And really hoping for people to get into a healthful cycle, right, where you get good sleep, where you can make good food choices, that then helps you get better sleep to keep propelling this cycle of better health.
真的希望人们进入一个健康的循环，对吧，在那里你可以得到良好的睡眠，在那里你可以做出良好的食物选择，然后帮助你获得更好的睡眠，以继续推动这个更好的健康循环。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love it.
我喜欢它。
It's a true integrative medicine-
这是真正的综合医学——
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and science.
和科学。
I also can attest that, when you sleep well, you make better food choices.
我还可以证明，当你睡得好时，你会做出更好的食物选择。
When you eat well, you sleep better.
当你吃得好时，你就会睡得更好。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So thank you so much for coming, for taking time out of your schedule.
非常感谢您在百忙之中抽出时间来参加。
Really appreciate it, and I've learned a ton.
真的很感激，我学到了很多。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge:
玛丽·皮埃尔·圣翁格博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge.
感谢您参加今天与 Marie-Pierre St-Onge 博士的讨论。
To learn more about her laboratory's research and to find a link to her book, "Eat Better, Sleep Better," please see the links in the show note captions.
要了解有关她实验室研究的更多信息并找到她的书《吃得更好，睡得更好》的链接，请参阅节目注释标题中的链接。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的关注按钮来关注播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。
And you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.
您现在可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab Podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客、嘉宾或您希望我考虑在 Huberman 实验室播客中讨论的主题有意见，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这本书是我花了五年多时间编写的，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验。
And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
它涵盖了从睡眠到运动再到压力控制的所有协议，以及与注意力和动机相关的协议，当然，我为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." And if you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。
So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。
Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
同样，所有社交媒体平台上都是 Huberman Lab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries, as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要，以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available completely zero cost.
所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件即可。
And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Marie-Pierre St-Onge.
再次感谢您参加今天与 Marie-Pierre St-Onge 博士的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
Saying how you feel out loud is terrifying, but that's what Hinge's new free audiobook, "No Ordinary Love," is all about.
大声说出你的感受是很可怕的，但这就是 Hinge 的新免费有声读物“No Ordinary Love”的全部内容。
It's a collection of real love stories about five couples that met on Hinge.
这是一本关于五对在 Hinge 上相识的情侣的真实爱情故事的合集。
The stories are written and read by Tembi Locklear, Nicola Dinan, Curtis Garner, Raven Smith, and Rufi Thorpe.
这些故事由坦比·洛克利尔、尼古拉·迪南、柯蒂斯·加纳、雷文·史密斯和鲁菲·索普撰写和朗读。
I, Hunter Harris, wrote and read the forward.
我，亨特·哈里斯，撰写并阅读了这篇前言。
The audiobook's out now.
有声读物现在已经出来了。
Give it a listen.
听一下。