Dr. Susanna Søberg: How to Use Cold & Heat Exposure to Improve Your Health

Her research has focused on how deliberate cold exposure and deliberate heat exposure can be used to enhance human metabolism.

她的研究重点是如何利用有意的冷暴露和热暴露来增强人体新陈代谢。

She is the first author of a seminal study which discovered the minimum thresholds for deliberate heat and deliberate cold exposure for increasing brown fat thermogenesis, which is essentially a mode of increasing heat production and metabolism in the body, and for establishing actionable protocols that can be used outside of the laboratory to improve metabolism and human health.

她是一项开创性研究的第一作者，该研究发现了故意加热和故意冷暴露以增加棕色脂肪生热作用的最低阈值，这本质上是增加体内产热和新陈代谢的一种模式，并建立了可在实验室外使用的可操作方案，以改善新陈代谢和人类健康。

Dr. Søberg's research was published in the journal, Cell Reports Metabolism, in 2021, adding to a long and important history of research focusing on the role of cold and the role of heat in altering various aspects of the body's physiology, including hormone health, metabolism, and changes in neurotransmitters, such as dopamine and epinephrine.

Søberg 博士的研究于 2021 年发表在《Cell Reports Metabolism》杂志上，为长期重要的研究历史增添了新的内容，该研究重点关注冷和热在改变身体生理学各个方面的作用，包括激素健康、新陈代谢以及多巴胺和肾上腺素等神经递质的变化。

In fact, today's discussion with Dr. Søberg focuses on the role of deliberate heat and deliberate cold exposure on metabolism, but it also includes discussion of the effects of cold and heat on things like neurotransmitter production, namely dopamine, and epinephrine, and norepinephrine, the so-called catecholamines, which strongly impact mood and metabolism.

事实上，今天与 Søberg 博士的讨论重点是故意热和故意冷暴露对新陈代谢的作用，但也包括冷和热对神经递质产生的影响的讨论，即多巴胺、肾上腺素和去甲肾上腺素，即所谓的儿茶酚胺，它们强烈影响情绪和新陈代谢。

In addition, Dr. Søberg answers many common questions about deliberate cold and deliberate heat exposure, including, for instance, the difference between cold showers versus cold immersion up to the neck versus total body cold immersion, including whether or not going back and forth between heat and cold changes fundamentally the way that heat and cold impact the metabolism, hormones, and neurotransmitter production.

此外，Søberg 博士还回答了许多有关故意冷和热暴露的常见问题，包括冷水淋浴、颈部冷水浸泡与全身冷水浸泡之间的区别，包括在热和冷之间来回是否会从根本上改变热和冷影响新陈代谢、激素和神经递质产生的方式。

And we talk about almost every single nuance and variation on deliberate cold and deliberate heat exposure protocols as it relates to the underlying science.

我们讨论了与基础科学相关的刻意冷和刻意热暴露方案的几乎每一个细微差别和变化。

In particular, how cold receptors at the level of the skin are impacted versus cold reception and perception at the level of the brain and how all of that impacts systems of the brain and body, relating to mental health, physical health, and performance.

特别是，皮肤层面的冷感受器与大脑层面的冷接收和感知如何受到影响，以及所有这些如何影响与心理健康、身体健康和表现相关的大脑和身体系统。

Based on her scientific research and academic training, as well as her understanding and use of deliberate heat and deliberate cold exposure protocols, Dr. Søberg is considered one of the world's leading experts on these topics.

基于她的科学研究和学术培训，以及她对故意加热和故意冷暴露方案的理解和使用，Søberg 博士被认为是这些主题的世界领先专家之一。

In fact, she is the author of a recent book entitled "Winter Swimming," which is, I have to say, a terrific book because it breaks down chapter by chapter the different aspects of deliberate heat and deliberate cold into its various constituent parts, including cold acclimatization, the cold shock response, dangers and safeties of cold water, the impact of cold and impact of heat on various aspects of human health, as well as specifics relating to sauna, versus ice, versus cold swimming, showers, et cetera.

事实上，她最近写了一本题为《冬泳》的书，我不得不说，这是一本很棒的书，因为它逐章地将刻意加热和刻意寒冷的不同方面分解为各个组成部分，包括冷适应、冷休克反应、冷水的危险和安全、冷和热对人类健康各个方面的影响，以及与桑拿、冰敷、冷水游泳、淋浴等有关的细节。等等。

It's a very thorough read and a very easy and accessible read that if you're interested in deliberate cold or deliberate heat exposure or both, will allow you to embrace those protocols with the greatest degree of confidence that you're going to obtain the specific endpoints that you're interested in and to do so safely.

这是一本非常彻底的读物，也是一本非常简单易懂的读物，如果您对故意的寒冷或故意的热暴露或两者感兴趣，它将让您以最大程度的信心接受这些协议，您将获得您感兴趣的特定终点并安全地这样做。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is however part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。

Our first sponsor is Plunge.

我们的第一个赞助商是 Plunge。

Plunge makes what I believe is the most versatile at home self-cooling cold plunge for deliberate cold exposure.

Plunge 是我认为最通用的家用自冷却冷浸设备，可用于有意的寒冷暴露。

I've talked numerous times on this podcast about the many benefits of deliberate cold exposure.

我在这个播客中多次谈到了故意暴露在寒冷环境中的许多好处。

And indeed, today's episode is focused entirely on the benefits and the science of deliberate cold exposure.

事实上，今天的节目完全集中在故意冷暴露的好处和科学上。

Plunge uses a powerful cooling filtration and sanitation unit to give you access to deliberate cold exposure in clean water whenever you want.

Plunge 使用强大的冷却过滤和卫生装置，让您可以随时在干净的水中享受冷的环境。

As we will discuss during today's episode with Dr. Susanna Søberg, deliberate cold exposure, especially deliberate cold exposure done up to the neck in water, can be used to achieve a number of important endpoints related to mental health, physical health, and performance.

正如我们将在今天的节目中与 Susanna Søberg 博士讨论的那样，故意冷暴露，尤其是在水中进行故意冷暴露至颈部，可用于实现与心理健康、身体健康和表现相关的许多重要终点。

I've been using a plunge for more than two years now.

我已经使用跳水器两年多了。

I can tell you that it makes it very easy to get your deliberate cold exposure at home.

我可以告诉你，这让你很容易在家里故意暴露在寒冷中。

It doesn't require much cleaning.

它不需要太多清洁。

In fact, it's very easy to keep clean, which is essential.

事实上，保持清洁非常容易，这一点至关重要。

You don't want bacteria and other things growing in your cold plunge.

您不希望细菌和其他东西在冷水中生长。

Basically, everything about the plunge is made easy, so that anyone, including myself, can gather deliberate cold exposure on a regular basis at home.

基本上，关于跳水的一切都很容易，这样任何人，包括我自己，都可以在家里定期进行有意识的寒冷暴露。

If you're interested in getting a plunge, you can go to plunge.com/huberman and get $150 off your cold plunge.

如果您有兴趣尝试一下，您可以访问plunging.com/huberman，并可享受 150 美元的冷跳优惠。

Again, that's plunge.com/huberman for $150 off.

同样，在plum.com/huberman 上可享受 150 美元折扣。

Today's episode is also brought to us by Maui Nui Venison, which I can confidently say is the most nutrient dense and delicious red meat available.

今天的节目也是由茂宜岛鹿肉给我们带来的，我可以自信地说，它是目前营养最丰富、最美味的红肉。

Maui Nui spent nearly a decade building a USDA-certified wild harvesting system to help balance deer populations on the island of Maui.

毛伊努伊岛花了近十年的时间建立了美国农业部认证的野生捕猎系统，以帮助平衡毛伊岛上的鹿群。

The solution they built turns to the proliferation of an invasive species into a wide range of nutrients dense products, from butcher cuts and organ meats, to bone broth and jerky.

他们构建的解决方案将入侵物种的繁殖转化为各种营养丰富的产品，从屠宰肉和内脏肉，到骨头汤和肉干。

Their bone broth has an unmatched 25 grams of protein per 100 calories.

他们的骨头汤每 100 卡路里含有无与伦比的 25 克蛋白质。

Several guests on this podcast who are experts in nutrition have pointed to the value of getting at least 1 gram of quality protein per pound of body weight each day.

该播客中的几位营养专家嘉宾指出，每天每磅体重至少摄入 1 克优质蛋白质的价值。

With Maui Nui, that's very easy to do while eating delicious meals and getting it from a sustainable source.

在 Maui Nui，这很容易做到，同时吃美味的饭菜并从可持续的来源获取食物。

If you would like to try Maui Nui Venison, go to mauinuivenison.com/huberman and get 20% off your first order.

如果您想尝试 Maui Nui 鹿肉，请访问 mauinuivenison.com/huberman，首单可享受 20% 折扣。

Again, that's mauinuivenison.com/huberman to get 20% off.

再次强调，mauinuivenison.com/huberman 可以获得 20% 的折扣。

Today's episode is also brought to us by Thesis.

今天的节目也是Thesis给我们带来的。

Thesis makes custom nootropics, and nootropics is not a word that I like because it means smart drugs, and the brain doesn't have neural circuits for being smart, rather has neural circuits for focus, neural circuits for task switching, neural circuits for creativity, and on and on.

论文制作了定制的促智药，而促智药不是我喜欢的词，因为它意味着智能药物，而大脑没有用于变得聪明的神经回路，而是具有用于集中注意力的神经回路，用于任务切换的神经回路，用于创造力的神经回路，等等。

Thesis understands this and designs custom nootropics designed to get your brain and body into a specific state in order to do the mental and/or physical work that's important to you, such as creativity, or focus, or clarity.

论文了解这一点，并设计了定制的促智药，旨在让您的大脑和身体进入特定状态，以便进行对您重要的精神和/或体力工作，例如创造力、注意力或清晰度。

If you'd like to try Thesis nootropics, you simply go to their website.

如果您想尝试 Thesis nootropics，您只需访问他们的网站即可。

You fill out a brief quiz, and they will design a custom starter pack, so that you can assess which things work for you more or less well.

您填写一个简短的测验，他们将设计一个定制的入门包，以便您可以评估哪些东西或多或少适合您。

And then they'll iterate with you over the course of the next few weeks or months to come up with the ideal nootropic kit for your needs.

然后他们将在接下来的几周或几个月内与您一起迭代，找出满足您需求的理想促智套件。

To get your own personalized nootropic starter kit, go online to takethesis.com/huberman.

要获取您自己的个性化促智入门套件，请上网访问 takethesis.com/huberman。

You can take that 3-minute quiz.

您可以参加 3 分钟的测验。

And they'll send you four different formulas to try in your first month.

他们会向您发送四种不同的配方，供您在第一个月内尝试。

Again, that's takethesis.com/huberman and use the code Huberman at checkout to get 10% off your first box.

同样，访问 takethesis.com/huberman，在结账时使用代码 Huberman 即可获得第一个盒子 10% 的折扣。

I'm pleased to announce that I will be hosting two live events in September of 2023.

我很高兴地宣布，我将于 2023 年 9 月主持两场现场活动。

The first live event will take place in Toronto on September 12th.

首场现场活动将于 9 月 12 日在多伦多举行。

The second live event will take place in Chicago on September 28.

第二场现场活动将于 9 月 28 日在芝加哥举行。

Both live events we'll include a lecture and a question-and-answer period and are entitled The Brain-Body Contract, during which I will discuss tools and science related to mental health, physical health, and performance.

这两场现场活动我们都将包括讲座和问答环节，题为《大脑与身体的契约》，在此期间我将讨论与心理健康、身体健康和表现相关的工具和科学。

I should mention that a lot of that content will have absolutely no overlap with content covered previously on the Huberman Lab podcast or elsewhere.

我应该提到的是，其中很多内容与 Huberman 实验室播客或其他地方之前介绍的内容绝对没有重叠。

If you're interested in attending either or both of these events, please go to hubermanlab.com/tour and enter the code Huberman to get early access to tickets.

如果您有兴趣参加其中一项或两项活动，请访问 hubermanlab.com/tour 并输入代码 Huberman 以提前获取门票。

Once again, that's hubermanlab.com/tour and use the code Huberman to access tickets.

再次访问 hubermanlab.com/tour，并使用代码 Huberman 获取门票。

I hope to see you there.

我希望在那里见到你。

And now, for my discussion with Dr. Susanna Søberg.

现在，我与 Susanna Søberg 博士进行了讨论。

Dr. Susanna Søberg, welcome.

苏珊娜·索伯格博士，欢迎光临。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Thank you.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 谢谢。

So, for a long time, I'd been interested in this area.

所以，很长一段时间以来，我一直对这个领域感兴趣。

But there's been a real lack of new, let's say, high profile, quality scientific information in terms of how, for instance, cold plunges and sauna, how that impacts human physiology.

但确实缺乏新的、高调的、高质量的科学信息，例如冷水浴和桑拿，以及它们如何影响人体生理学。

I know there's been some information out there, but it's been sort of scattered.

我知道那里有一些信息，但它们有点分散。

And then a little over a year ago, I see this paper in Cell Reports Medicine and was immediately struck.

一年多前，我在 Cell Reports Medicine 上看到这篇论文，立即被震惊了。

First of all, the fact that it was in Cell Reports Medicine.

首先，它是在《细胞报告医学》中的事实。

I've been on the Cell Press editorial board for a long time now.

我已经在 Cell Press 编辑委员会任职很长时间了。

So, press journals are, of course, phenomenal journals.

因此，新闻期刊当然是非凡的期刊。

And the title and the content of the paper was directly in line with the sorts of practices that people are very curious about and then are starting to emerge.

论文的标题和内容与人们非常好奇并开始出现的各种实践直接吻合。

Things like sauna, cold plunges, and there was your name first on the author list.

比如桑拿、冷水浴，以及作者名单上你的名字排在第一位。

And I reached out to you through social media.

我通过社交媒体联系了你。

And we've done a little bit of live content there together.

我们一起做了一些现场内容。

And I've been tracking what you've been doing in the world in terms of your book, and talking about the results in your manuscript, and talking about the science and impact of deliberate cold exposure and sauna.

我一直在跟踪您在书中所做的事情，并在您的手稿中讨论了结果，并讨论了故意冷暴露和桑拿的科学和影响。

And I have to say that it's been a wonderful and remarkable thing to see, and you're bringing so much quality information about this area that for a long time I think was kind of niche and is now becoming more and more mainstream.

我不得不说，这是一件美妙而非凡的事情，你们带来了很多关于这个领域的高质量信息，在很长一段时间里，我认为这是一个小众领域，现在正变得越来越主流。

So, I'm going to start off with a thank you for being here and a thank you for the work that you've done.

因此，我首先要感谢您来到这里，并感谢您所做的工作。

And I'm looking forward to talking to you about it today.

我期待着今天与您谈论这个问题。

So, my first question, to get things started, is what is happening when we get into an uncomfortably cold environment?

所以，首先，我的第一个问题是，当我们进入一个不舒服的寒冷环境时会发生什么？

So, for instance, if I'm really hot on a hot day, jumping into a cold pool feels really good.

所以，举例来说，如果我在大热天真的很热，跳进冷水池感觉真的很好。

But if I'm already kind of at room temperature, I'm a little bit chilly, getting into that same temperature of water doesn't feel so good, right?

但如果我已经处于室温下，我会有点冷，进入同样温度的水感觉不太好，对吧？

There's a shock there.

那里有一种震惊。

So, if you could just walk us through what happens when we get into uncomfortably cold water, whether or not it's by way of shower or cold plunge at the level of our physiology, and if you'd like, our psychology.

所以，如果你能告诉我们当我们进入不舒服的冷水中时会发生什么，无论是在我们的生理层面上淋浴还是冷水浸入，如果你愿意的话，在我们的心理层面上也是如此。

I think that's a good place for us to start because I think it will orient people to their own experience if they do that.

我认为这对我们来说是一个很好的起点，因为我认为如果人们这样做，就会引导他们了解自己的经历。

And for those that haven't done it, it might start to peel back some of the layers as to what the underlying mechanisms of cold are.

对于那些还没有这样做的人来说，它可能会开始揭开一些关于寒冷的潜在机制的层面。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

Thank you for that question.

谢谢你提出这个问题。

It's really good to just address what actually happens in our physiology when we get cold, and you can get cold in many ways.

解决我们感冒时生理学中实际发生的情况确实很好，而且感冒可以通过多种方式发生。

So, you can just head out for the one that gives you the most potent stressor, which is submerging into cold water.

所以，你可以直接去寻找给你带来最大压力的地方，那就是浸入冷水中。

But you could also go in outside in the cold wind.

但你也可以在冷风中到外面去。

That's also going to activate your sympathetic nervous system.

这也会激活你的交感神经系统。

So, get all these neurotransmitters going in your body and so your catecholamines.

因此，让所有这些神经递质以及儿茶酚胺进入您的体内。

Let's just address that we are taking a cold plunge, for example.

例如，让我们简单说明一下我们正在经历一场冷战。

So, if you are very hot, for example, before you go into the cold water.

因此，例如，如果您很热，请在进入冷水之前。

It's going to feel less stressful.

感觉压力会小一些。

But the temperature difference from your skin to the cold is definitely going to give you a shock, but your core temperature is warmer, and that's going to feel a little bit better.

但是你的皮肤和寒冷之间的温差肯定会让你感到震惊，但你的核心温度会变暖，感觉会好一点。

So that's why when people go into a sauna, for example, and go out and into the cold water, they can do it easily, easier than if they were cold beforehand.

这就是为什么当人们进入桑拿房，然后出去进入冷水时，他们可以轻松地做到这一点，比之前感到寒冷更容易。

And then you mentioned the catecholamines, which are dopamine, epinephrine, and norepinephrine.

然后你提到了儿茶酚胺，即多巴胺、肾上腺素和去甲肾上腺素。

So maybe a little bit later, we'll talk about those individual neurotransmitters.

所以也许稍后我们会讨论那些单独的神经递质。

But you raise a really important point, which is something I get asked about a lot for people that are curious about using deliberate cold exposure, which is how cold should the water be.

但你提出了一个非常重要的观点，对于那些对故意冷暴露感到好奇的人来说，这是很多人问我的问题，即水应该有多冷。

And I know it's very hard to give a straight prescription for that because I think it boils down to what you just said, which is it's really the difference between your current temperature and really the temperature at the surface of your skin and the temperature of the water.

我知道很难给出一个直接的处方，因为我认为这可以归结为你刚才所说的，这实际上是你当前的温度与皮肤表面的温度和水温之间的差异。

So, if you're very warm, getting into cold feels good.

所以，如果你很温暖，那么寒冷的感觉也会很好。

If you're already cold, getting into more cold feels stressful.

如果你已经很冷了，再变得更冷会让人感到压力。

Is there any way that we can start to gauge what is the best way to approach a deliberate cold exposure protocol?

有没有什么方法可以让我们开始衡量什么是进行有意的冷暴露方案的最佳方法？

I mean, should it feel uncomfortable?

我的意思是，应该感到不舒服吗？

And that leads into the question of how do we balance the discomfort with the amount of time that we spend in?

这就引出了一个问题：我们如何平衡不适感与我们花费的时间？

So, for instance, if it's just a little bit uncomfortable, will spending more time in the cold get us the same benefit as getting into very uncomfortably cold water for a very short period of time?

那么，举例来说，如果只是有点不舒服，那么在寒冷的环境中呆更长的时间是否会与短时间进入非常不舒服的冷水中获得相同的好处？

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

It's a really good question.

这是一个非常好的问题。

And I definitely think that this could be a future study on this as well to really unravel what kind of protocols are the best way or also for which outcomes, of course.

我绝对认为这也可能是未来的一项研究，以真正阐明哪种协议是最好的方法，或者当然也可以得出哪些结果。

So, if the temperature sure is very cold and you also feel very cold, then you should stay in the water a little bit longer.

所以，如果气温确实很冷，而你也感觉很冷，那么你应该在水里呆久一点。

So, I think you should get uncomfortable cold.

所以，我认为你应该感到寒冷不舒服。

So as long as you get uncomfortable cold, it's cold enough, and you get this what we call the cold shock.

因此，只要你感到寒冷不舒服，那就足够冷了，你就会得到我们所说的冷休克。

So, the cold shock is activation of your sympathetic nervous system and these activation of the catecholamines, which you just mentioned before.

所以，冷休克是你的交感神经系统的激活以及你之前提到的儿茶酚胺的激活。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

You can say so because that's kind of like how we define it.

你可以这么说，因为这有点像我们定义它的方式。

So, you hyperventilate.

所以，你换气过度。

So, you have a faster breathing rate.

所以，你的呼吸频率更快。

So that increases also because you activate your gasping reflex if you are new to this.

因此，如果您对此不熟悉，那么也会增加，因为您会激活喘息反射。

But if you are adapted, it kind of subsides with time with adaptation.

但如果你适应了，它会随着适应时间的推移而消退。

So, what you can do is that you can train this cold exposure, and you can get adapted to it, so you don't have this hyperventilating response every time you go out in the cold water.

所以，你能做的就是，你可以训练这种寒冷的暴露，你可以适应它，这样你就不会每次出去冷水时都有这种换气过度的反应。

So, this is like building up your resilience, building up your adaptation.

所以，这就像增强你的韧性，增强你的适应能力。

It's going to make this shock like subside a bit.

这会让这种震惊稍微平息一些。

So, it's always harder in the beginning, but you should do hard things, right?

所以，一开始总是很难，但你应该做困难的事情，对吗？

It's not something that we-- you shouldn't think about cold water and cold-water immersion as something that is comfortable.

这不是我们——你不应该认为冷水和冷水浸泡是舒服的事情。

It should be hard because that's the point of it, right?

这应该很难，因为这就是重点，对吧？

If you enjoy it, then yeah, then I'm thinking something is wrong, is not right.

如果你喜欢它，那么是的，那么我认为有些事情是错误的，是不对的。

You should not enjoy it.

你不应该享受它。

With deliberate cold exposure, I suppose you can be sort of halfway in halfway out of the water or partially underneath the cold shower, but it's very hard to titrate and adjust the level.

通过故意的冷暴露，我想你可以半在水中或部分在冷水淋浴下，但滴定和调​​整水平非常困难。

It's kind of all or none.

这有点全有或全无。

And I've seen-- actually, I can tell this by anecdote I've done some work with military special operations.

我已经看到——实际上，我可以通过我在军事特种作战方面做过一些工作的轶事来说明这一点。

I won't say which country.

哪个国家我就不说了。

This was outside the US.

这是在美国境外。

And these are very tough individuals.

这些人都是非常坚强的人。

They're used to going without sleep and doing hard, high consequence, high risk kind of work.

他们习惯于不睡觉，做艰苦、高后果、高风险的工作。

And they were asked to do some cold-water exposure training, and I was there that day, and it was remarkable.

他们被要求进行一些冷水暴露训练，那天我也在场，这非常了不起。

About a third of them just went straight in and just kind of grinded through it.

大约三分之一的人直接进去，然后就磨过去了。

They looked stoic anyway to me.

无论如何，在我看来，他们看起来很坚忍。

There were a few whimpers, no cries.

有几声呜咽，没有哭声。

About a third talked a lot, and you could tell that they were agitated and anxious, but they made it through.

大约三分之一的人说了很多话，你可以看出他们很激动和焦虑，但他们还是挺过来了。

And then about a third of them just simply would not get in past their knees or thighs.

然后，大约三分之一的人根本无法超过膝盖或大腿。

It seemed like they were just dreading the whole experience.

看起来他们只是害怕整个经历。

Some actually didn't actually go in completely.

有些实际上并没有完全进去。

Which was really surprising to me in that you couldn't tell based on their physical appearance or anything else about them, they're all high performers, as to who would have this response.

这让我感到非常惊讶，因为你无法根据他们的外表或其他任何信息来判断他们都是高绩效者，至于谁会有这种反应。

So, it seems like people vary tremendously in terms of their ability to embrace the discomfort of the cold.

因此，人们接受寒冷不适的能力似乎存在巨大差异。

From your studies, is that your experience as well, or are there these weird mutants who seem to just love going into the cold for the first time?

从你的研究来看，这也是你的经历吗？还是有这些奇怪的变种人似乎只是喜欢第一次进入寒冷的地方？

SUSANNA SØBERG: So, some people just feel better in the cold, and some people dread the cold even more.

SUSANNA SØBERG：所以，有些人只是在寒冷中感觉更好，而有些人则更害怕寒冷。

And you can say the more people are pushing the cold away, they might feel the cold pain even more.

可以说，越是驱散寒冷的人，可能就越会感受到冷痛。

So, they would definitely-- people who are, maybe the soldiers you just talked about, some of them might be already adapted to the cold.

所以，他们肯定会——可能是你刚才谈到的士兵，他们中的一些人可能已经适应了寒冷。

So, if they are not scared of the cold, they go out, and they embrace the cold in a better way.

所以，如果他们不害怕寒冷，他们就出去，以更好的方式拥抱寒冷。

It could also be that some people have a more sensitive nervous system.

也可能有些人的神经系统更敏感。

And when you are a bit sensitive to the cold, you will, of course, try to get away from it, right?

当你对寒冷有点敏感时，你当然会试图远离它，对吗？

And you also feel the pain more if you avoid it.

如果你避免它，你也会感受到更多的痛苦。

So, the more you avoid the cold, the more pain painful it will feel when you go into it.

所以，越是躲避寒冷，一进去就会越痛苦。

SUSANNA SØBERG: So, there are different outcomes because they are very different exposures of the cold to your cold receptors in your skin.

SUSANNA SØBERG：所以，会有不同的结果，因为皮肤中的冷感受器所受到的寒冷程度非常不同。

So, the more you can say you cover your body in the cold, which you would do in cold water because they're, of course, covered totally and the molecules are closer to your skin, you will have a more potent activation of all your cold receptors in the skin.

因此，你越多地用冷水覆盖你的身体（你会在冷水中这样做，因为它们当然被完全覆盖并且分子更接近你的皮肤），你将更有效地激活皮肤中的所有冷感受器。

So that one will definitely activate your autonomic nervous system more and rapid, compared to going out in a t-shirt in the cold wind, just go for a walk.

这样肯定会更快速地激活你的自主神经系统，而不是在寒风中穿着T恤出去散步。

But that is also something that's going to activate your sympathetic nervous system.

但这也会激活你的交感神经系统。

Meaning that you will have an increase in norepinephrine, and you will activate something called the brown fat.

这意味着你的去甲肾上腺素会增加，并且你会激活一种叫做棕色脂肪的东西。

So, this is a healthy kind of fat tissue that we have in our body.

所以，这是我们体内的一种健康的脂肪组织。

And when you activate that, that's going to increase your metabolism.

当你激活它时，你的新陈代谢就会增加。

SUSANNA SØBERG: If we had more studies on cold showers, we would learn more about how does that activate our metabolism, how does that increase our neurotransmitters in the brain, which could also have an impact on our mental balance.

SUSANNA SØBERG：如果我们对冷水淋浴进行更多研究，我们就会更多地了解冷水淋浴如何激活我们的新陈代谢，如何增加大脑中的神经递质，这也可能对我们的心理平衡产生影响。

So, I think that would be interesting for the future.

所以，我认为这对未来来说会很有趣。

But what we do know is from activating brown fat both from rodent studies but also in humans, is that as soon as we get cold on our skin, we will activate our brown fat.

但我们确实知道，通过啮齿动物研究和人类研究激活棕色脂肪，一旦我们的皮肤变冷，我们就会激活我们的棕色脂肪。

So, it is kind of like our first responder in the body to keep our temperature up.

所以，它有点像我们体内保持体温的第一反应者。

So, our muscles is like the second tissue in our body.

所以，我们的肌肉就像我们身体的第二组织。

We have two tissues, which can increase our thermogenesis.

我们有两种组织，可以增加我们的生热作用。

So, the brown fat, which is always like temperature regulating our body.

所以，棕色脂肪就像调节我们身体的温度一样。

And then we have the muscles, which will secondarily start to shiver, and that's going to increase our temperature in the body.

然后我们的肌肉就会开始颤抖，这会增加我们体内的温度。

But as soon as you go into a cold shower, you will activate your brown fat also immediately.

但一旦你洗冷水澡，你的棕色脂肪也会立即被激活。

So, it could be good also for increasing metabolism in theory because we haven't really any studies showing how much does it actually activate the brown fat.

因此，从理论上讲，它也可能有利于提高新陈代谢，因为我们还没有任何研究表明它实际上能激活多少棕色脂肪。

So, if someone out there wants to do a study on that, that would be great.

因此，如果有人想对此进行研究，那就太好了。

Also, I think for-- you and I are both research scientists.

另外，我认为你和我都是研究科学家。

There's a little bit of a methodological challenge that might seem silly to people, but it's a real one, which is if people are in a cold shower also, the water is going to be-- I'm kind of pushing their clothing against their skin.

有一点方法上的挑战，对人们来说可能看起来很愚蠢，但这是真实的，如果人们也洗冷水澡，水就会——我有点把他们的衣服推到他们的皮肤上。

There's a certain vulnerability and for most people coming to a laboratory in the first place, let alone being observed while they shower.

对于大多数来到实验室的人来说，存在一定的脆弱性，更不用说在洗澡时被观察了。

Whereas when you get into cold immersion, you're getting under the water.

而当你进入冷水浸泡时，你就进入了水下。

And some people might roll their eyes and say, OK, really?

有些人可能会翻白眼说，好吧，真的吗？

Is that the barrier?

这就是障碍吗？

But science exists in these real-world contexts.

但科学存在于这些现实世界的背景中。

And this will vary by culture and things of that sort.

这会因文化和类似事物的不同而有所不同。

But we run human subjects in my lab.

但我们在我的实验室里进行人体实验。

And I'll tell you just the process of getting people to the laboratory and having them park and find the lab.

我将告诉您将人们带到实验室并让他们停车并找到实验室的过程。

And it's a whole new environment with people in lab coats, and people moving around, and where's the restroom?

这是一个全新的环境，人们穿着实验室外套，人们走来走去，洗手间在哪里？

I mean, there's a certain amount of stress just associated with taking part in a study for most human subjects.

我的意思是，参与大多数人类受试者的研究都会带来一定的压力。

So, I totally agree, however, we need more studies of cold showers.

所以，我完全同意，但是，我们需要对冷水淋浴进行更多研究。

It's just a harder environment to control in my mind.

在我看来，这只是一个更难控制的环境。

So, it sounds like any form of cold to the skin that people register as what you call a cold shock or an uncomfortable, like this is kind of jarring, activates the brown fat.

所以，听起来就像任何形式的皮肤寒冷，人们都会将其记录为所谓的冷休克或不舒服，就像这有点刺耳，会激活棕色脂肪。

Do we know what the pathway is from cold receptors on the skin to the brown fat?

我们知道从皮肤上的冷感受器到棕色脂肪的途径是什么吗？

I mean, how does the brown fat know that we're cold?

我的意思是，棕色脂肪怎么知道我们很冷？

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

Really good question.

真是个好问题。

And it seems that I think that, of course, in the future, we will know much more about these pathways.

我认为，当然，将来我们会对这些途径了解更多。

But what we do know is that the cold receptors will send a signal to our temperature regulating center in the brain, so hypothalamus.

但我们所知道的是，冷感受器会向大脑中的温度调节中心（即下丘脑）发送信号。

And that's going to be taking in this message.

这将包含在这个消息中。

And we have so many cold receptors in the skin.

我们的皮肤里有很多冷感受器。

So, it's going to be very fast.

所以，它会非常快。

You can say if you immerse the body into cold water, this is going to be so rapid.

可以说，如果你把身体浸入冷水中，这个速度会很快。

So, it will have a rapid increase in neurotransmitters in the brain.

因此，大脑中的神经递质会迅速增加。

So, noradrenaline, adrenaline, and cortisol, which is not that much, it's but it's still there.

所以，去甲肾上腺素、肾上腺素和皮质醇虽然不多，但仍然存在。

So, you have this increase in noradrenaline, which will then immediately activate the brown fat because you can say the activator is the most potent one, cold and noradrenaline, and that's going to activate the brown fat.

所以，去甲肾上腺素会增加，然后会立即激活棕色脂肪，因为你可以说激活剂是最有效的一种，冷和去甲肾上腺素，这会激活棕色脂肪。

But there is also a direct pathway from the cold receptors in the skin to the brown fat, which really shows that because of these different pathways, it shows that it could be that this tissue to keep us warm or was developed in our evolvement as humans to keep us warm and to save us whenever the temperature on our skin varies just a little bit to keep us in that right homeostatic balance, so we don't get hypothermic, but also so we don't get hypothermic.

但从皮肤中的冷感受器到棕色脂肪也有一条直接的途径，这确实表明，由于这些不同的途径，它表明这种组织可能是为了让我们保持温暖，或者是在人类进化过程中发展起来的，目的是让我们保持温暖，并在我们皮肤温度稍微变化时拯救我们，使我们保持正确的体内平衡，这样我们就不会体温过低，但也不会体温过低。

But because it seems that the brown fat is also activated when we get warm on our skin.

但因为当我们的皮肤变暖时，棕色脂肪似乎也会被激活。

So, it's also maybe a temperature regulator in our body.

所以，它也可能是我们体内的温度调节器。

But the pathway is different.

但途径不同。

I think it's also a third pathway directly from the muscles.

我认为这也是直接来自肌肉的第三条途径。

So, the brown fat is also activated, even though the muscles are starting to shiver.

因此，即使肌肉开始颤抖，棕色脂肪也会被激活。

So, there's an extra pathway, that way to keep our temperature up, so muscles and brown fat are working together to keep us warm, so we don't suffer too much in the cold water.

所以，有一条额外的途径来保持我们的体温，这样肌肉和棕色脂肪就会一起工作来让我们保持温暖，这样我们就不会在冷水中承受太多的痛苦。

And so, it sounds like it's cold on the skin triggers a response in the hypothalamus, which then activates brown fat, cold receptors in the skin directly to the brown fat, and then shivering in the muscle to the brown fat.

因此，听起来皮肤上的寒冷会触发下丘脑的反应，然后激活棕色脂肪，皮肤中的冷感受器直接接触到棕色脂肪，然后在肌肉中颤抖到棕色脂肪。

I want to talk about brown fat in depth and learn from you more about brown fat.

我想深入谈谈棕色脂肪，并向您了解更多关于棕色脂肪的知识。

Before that however, I want to ask about shiver.

不过在此之前，我想问一下关于颤抖的问题。

I've heard that shiver causes the release of succinate, which then activates the brown fat.

我听说颤抖会导致琥珀酸盐的释放，然后琥珀酸盐会激活棕色脂肪。

Is it known whether or not inducing shiver is important?

是否知道引起颤抖是否重要？

And when should people shiver?

人们什么时候应该颤抖？

I mean, I've gotten into cold plunges and shivered while I was in there.

我的意思是，当我在那里的时候，我陷入了寒冷的深渊并且发抖。

And then I've also had the experience of getting into a cold plunge or a cold shower then getting out or even standing outside on a warm day after swimming in a pool and then starting to shiver, so the shiver comes later.

然后我也有过这样的经历，在泳池里游泳后，进入冷水或冷水淋浴，然后出来，甚至在温暖的一天站在外面，然后开始发抖，所以发抖来得较晚。

So how important is shiver, and does it matter when shiver happens?

那么颤抖有多重要，以及颤抖何时发生重要吗？

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

Shivering is good because that increases your metabolism, and that's going to burn some calories in your body.

发抖是有好处的，因为这会增加你的新陈代谢，并且会燃烧你体内的一些卡路里。

You shouldn't be so afraid of shivering I think because the shivering, as long as you don't get too hypothermic, so if you don't sit in the cold water for too long.

我认为你不应该那么害怕发抖，因为只要你的体温不太低，所以如果你不在冷水中坐太久，就会发抖。

And what you just said by shivering after you get up, that is because of the afterdrop.

而你刚才说的起床后瑟瑟发抖，那是因为后遗症的缘故。

Something called the afterdrop is when your core temperature decreases even after you get out of the cold water.

所谓的“后滴”是指即使从冷水中出来后，您的核心温度也会下降。

And it always does that, your body, because as soon as you get into the cold water, all your blood vessels is going to constrict because you need to keep your blood in your core and keep your vital organs warm.

你的身体总是这样，因为一旦你进入冷水，你所有的血管都会收缩，因为你需要保持你的血液在你的核心并保持你的重要器官温暖。

So as soon as you get up, those blood vessels will open again, and the warm blood will flow out and get colder and then flow back again into the core.

所以你一起床，那些血管又会张开，温热的血液就会流出，变冷，然后又流回核心。

And that's going to decrease the temperature in your core, of course.

当然，这会降低你核心的温度。

SUSANNA SØBERG: So that's the drop.

SUSANNA SØBERG： 这就是下降。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Exactly.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 没错。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yes.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

SUSANNA SØBERG: That's why you should end on the cold.

SUSANNA SØBERG： 这就是为什么你应该以感冒结束。

We could get back to that.

我们可以回到那个话题。

So that's wonderful that you can explain that so clearly because I think that shiver is something that a lot of people do avoid.

所以你能这么清楚地解释这一点真是太棒了，因为我认为很多人都避免发抖。

People think, oh, I don't want the chattering of the teeth.

人们会想，哦，我不想牙齿打战。

And it feels like a loss of bodily control, which really, it is.

感觉就像失去了身体控制，确实如此。

It's an autonomic response.

这是一种自主反应。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

But I don't think that people should avoid it that much.

但我认为人们不应该那么回避它。

It's just like seeing shivering as a way of your body, like it's training for all your cells.

这就像将颤抖视为你身体的一种方式，就像它是对你所有细胞的训练一样。

It's training for your muscles.

这是对你肌肉的训练。

It's training of your metabolism.

这是新陈代谢的训练。

And that's going to increase your what's called the insulin sensitivity.

这会增加你所谓的胰岛素敏感性。

So, if you can like in your mind get used to the thought of shivering is just like when you go exercising in the training center and get that feeling of like, oh, this is tough.

所以，如果你能在心里习惯颤抖的想法，就像你在训练中心锻炼时得到那种感觉，哦，这很难。

Now it hurts a little bit.

现在有点痛。

Yeah.

是的。

It's going to hurt because that's what shivering also does.

会很痛，因为颤抖也会造成这种情况。

But it's just a different way of training yourself and your body.

但这只是训练自己和身体的不同方式。

It's going to create what is healthy stress.

它将产生健康的压力。

It's called hormesis in the cells.

这被称为细胞中的毒物兴奋作用。

And the more you expose your muscle cells or your brown fat cells to these kind of healthy stresses, exercise, cold, heat exposure, it's going to make them better at like activating and also keeping you healthy.

你越多地让你的肌肉细胞或棕色脂肪细胞接触这些健康的压力、锻炼、冷、热暴露，它们就会更好地激活并保持你的健康。

So as long as the cells get exposed to this, it's going to keep them on its toes you can say because it becomes more robust and increasing these heat shock proteins and cold shock proteins in the cells to make you more robust for the next time.

因此，只要细胞接触到这种物质，它们就会保持警惕，你可以说，因为它会变得更加强壮，并增加细胞中的热休克蛋白和冷休克蛋白，使你下次变得更加强壮。

And that is also what happens when you go to the training center.

当你去培训中心时也会发生这种情况。

And I keep like drawing that parallel because people today know more about, we know more about exercise and what that is going to do to your muscle cells.

我一直喜欢这样比喻，因为今天的人们更加了解，我们更加了解锻炼以及锻炼对肌肉细胞的影响。

But the same kind of training is also what you do when you go out and into the cold water and submerge into cold water because that is just your cold training center you can say that and also your heat training center going into the sauna because the cells are getting stronger with hormetic stress.

但是，当你出去进入冷水并浸入冷水时，你也会进行同样的训练，因为这只是你的冷训练中心，你可以这么说，也是你的热训练中心进入桑拿房，因为细胞在兴奋压力下变得更强。

So, it's the same process, just different practices.

所以，这是相同的过程，只是不同的做法。

Blood pressure would be high.

血压会很高。

Inflammation is through the roof.

炎症蔓延到屋顶。

But all of that is setting in motion an adaptation or a set of adaptations that allow blood pressure to be lower at rest, that allow inflammation markers to be lower at rest.

但所有这些都在启动一种适应或一系列适应，使静息时血压降低，使炎症标志物在静息时降低。

All the things that everybody is seeking with exercise, in addition to, of course, the aesthetic changes that people are seeking with exercise.

每个人都在通过锻炼寻求的所有东西，当然，除了人们通过锻炼寻求的审美变化。

It sounds like the exact same things are happening with the cold.

听起来寒冷也发生了完全相同的事情。

So, the redundant message here seems to be that the more discomfort, provided it's done safely, just like with exercise, the more shivering, the more cold shock provided, it's not to the extreme and stops somebody's heart.

所以，这里多余的信息似乎是，只要安全地进行，越不舒服，就像锻炼一样，越发抖，越冷的冲击，也不会达到极端，使人的心脏停止跳动。

We can talk about thresholds for that a little bit later.

我们稍后可以讨论阈值。

It sounds like all of that is going to set in motion some long-term changes that will make people feel better and will improve health.

听起来所有这一切都将引发一些长期的变化，让人们感觉更好并改善健康。

Could you just touch on a few of the longer-term changes that are known to occur?

您能否谈谈一些已知正在发生的长期变化？

I mean, I'm well aware of the study showing that, I think it was the European Journal of Physiology showing long lasting increases in catecholamines, dopamine, norepinephrine, and epinephrine, for many hours after deliberate cold exposure.

我的意思是，我很清楚这项研究表明，我认为《欧洲生理学杂志》显示，在故意接触寒冷后的几个小时内，儿茶酚胺、多巴胺、去甲肾上腺素和肾上腺素会长期持续增加。

What are some of the other things that happen at the level of metabolism and brown fat in let's say the hours and day after deliberate cold exposure?

比方说，在故意暴露于寒冷环境后的几小时和一天中，新陈代谢和棕色脂肪水平上还发生了哪些其他事情？

SUSANNA SØBERG: As soon as you go in, of course, there's an activation.

SUSANNA SØBERG： 当然，只要你进去，就会有一个激活。

But it seems like you're asking for the later outcomes, like blood pressure and stuff like that.

但看起来你是在询问后来的结果，比如血压之类的。

Is that what you mean?

你是这个意思吗？

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

So, what happens is that you get adapted a little bit every time you go.

所以，每次去的时候你都会适应一点。

So, you will like exercise, get a little bit stronger.

所以，你会喜欢运动，变得更强一点。

So, every time you go into the cold water, for every time you will be more exposed to it, you will feel more comfortable in the cold.

所以，每次你进入冷水中，你每次接触冷水的次数就会越多，你就会在寒冷中感到更舒服。

So, you're going to build your adaptation, which happens on a metabolic level, which is going to be the brown fat.

所以，你将建立你的适应，这发生在新陈代谢水平上，这将是棕色脂肪。

So, you will have more activation of your brown fat.

因此，您的棕色脂肪将会被更多地激活。

The mitochondria in the brown fat cells, you'll have more of those, and they will be more efficient at heating you up because it expects the body, expects you to do this again, so you are prepared in a way.

棕色脂肪细胞中的线粒体，你会有更多的线粒体，它们会更有效地加热你，因为它期望身体，期望你再次这样做，所以你在某种程度上做好了准备。

The capillaries in your skin will also become better at constricting.

皮肤中的毛细血管也会变得更善于收缩。

So, you will have a better shield of your body to prepare you for the next time.

这样，你的身体就会有更好的保护，为下次做好准备。

So, you will become better at going into the cold water in that way.

所以，通过这种方式，你会变得更擅长进入冷水。

So, the body makes these mechanisms and changes your body in a way, so you can expose yourself to the next time, right?

那么，身体会产生这些机制并以某种方式改变你的身体，这样你就可以在下一次暴露自己，对吗？

And also, your stress response will also subside a bit, so you will have less increase of your catecholamines with time.

而且，你的压力反应也会稍微减弱，因此随着时间的推移，你的儿茶酚胺的增加也会减少。

With time also, because of this activation of your brown fat or your muscles, you will have an increase in your metabolism, which will then make your insulin sensitivity better.

随着时间的推移，由于棕色脂肪或肌肉的激活，您的新陈代谢也会增加，从而使您的胰岛素敏感性更好。

And this is shown in studies.

研究表明了这一点。

For example, there is this interesting study I found just before I started my, which was from Gibas-Dorna et al from 2016, where they measured metabolism not on brown fat, but they measured insulin sensitivity in middle aged men and women during one winter swimming season.

例如，我在开始研究之前发现了一项有趣的研究，该研究来自 2016 年的 Gibas-Dorna 等人，他们测量的不是棕色脂肪的新陈代谢，而是测量了中年男性和女性在一个冬泳季节的胰岛素敏感性。

So, they were not very young like they were in my study, but they were middle aged.

所以，他们不像我研究的那样很年轻，但他们已经是中年人了。

And I think this is very interesting.

我认为这很有趣。

So, during these four, five months they were winter swimming, they saw that they had a lower blood pressure after the season, and they had a lower heart rate.

所以，在他们冬泳的这四、五个月里，他们发现冬泳结束后，他们的血压较低，心率也较低。

And they also saw that they have a better insulin sensitivity.

他们还发现自己有更好的胰岛素敏感性。

And I think that is very interesting because if you can have a better insulin sensitivity, you can prevent lifestyle diseases and will lower blood pressure, which is a very strong outcome also for telling how much inflammation you have in the body.

我认为这非常有趣，因为如果你能有更好的胰岛素敏感性，你就可以预防生活方式疾病并降低血压，这也是一个非常有力的结果，可以告诉你体内有多少炎症。

And because they didn't measure brown fat, I figured that it could be that was the missing link.

因为他们没有测量棕色脂肪，我认为这可能是缺失的环节。

That was one of the explanations to why we see this less inflammation in the body.

这就是为什么我们体内炎症较少的原因之一。

So, the long-term outcomes could be that you lower your blood pressure and have a lower heart rate, you also have a better insulin sensitivity and better glucose balance, but that is shown in my study.

因此，长期结果可能是您的血压降低、心率降低、胰岛素敏感性更好、血糖平衡更好，但我的研究表明了这一点。

The reason I started taking Athletic Greens and the reason I still take Athletic Greens once or usually twice a day is that it gets me the probiotics that I need for gut health.

我开始服用运动绿色食品的原因以及我仍然每天服用一次或通常两次运动绿色食品的原因是它为我提供了肠道健康所需的益生菌。

Our gut is very important.

我们的直觉非常重要。

It's populated by gut microbiota that communicate with the brain, the immune system, and basically all the biological systems of our body to strongly impact our immediate and long-term health.

它充满了肠道微生物群，它们与大脑、免疫系统以及我们身体的所有生物系统进行交流，对我们的近期和长期健康产生强烈影响。

And those probiotics and Athletic Greens are optimal and vital for microbiotic health.

这些益生菌和运动绿色食品对于微生物健康来说是最佳且至关重要的。

In addition, Athletic Greens contains a number of adaptogens, vitamins, and minerals that make sure that all of my foundational nutritional needs are met, and it tastes great.

此外，运动绿叶蔬菜还含有多种适应原、维生素和矿物质，可确保满足我所有的基本营养需求，而且味道极佳。

If you'd like to try Athletic Greens, you can go to athleticgreens.com/huberman, and they'll give you five free travel packs that make it really easy to mix up Athletic Greens while you're on the road, in the car, on the plane, et cetera.

如果您想尝试 Athletic Greens，您可以访问 Athletic Greens.com/huberman，他们会为您提供五个免费旅行包，让您在路上、车内、飞机上等场合轻松搭配 Athletic Greens。

And they'll give you a year's supply of vitamin D3 K2.

他们还会为您提供一年的维生素 D3 K2。

Again, that's athleticgreens.com/huberman to get the five free travel packs and the year supply of vitamin D3 K2.

再次强调，您可以访问 sportsgreens.com/huberman 获取 5 个免费旅行包和全年维生素 D3 K2 供应量。

We'll get back to the insulin sensitivity and glucose balance.

我们将回到胰岛素敏感性和葡萄糖平衡。

That's an impressive list of benefits.

这是一个令人印象深刻的好处列表。

Blood pressure.

血压。

Of course, most people are aware of, blood pressure and what it is.

当然，大多数人都知道，血压是什么。

It's what they measure when we go to the doctor.

这是我们去看医生时他们测量的结果。

And it's not very sexy nowadays.

而且现在已经不太性感了。

Blood pressure, people are, oh, blood pressure.

血压，人就是，哦，血压。

People want to hear about the inflammatome and the microbiome, and all of that stuff is really interesting.

人们想了解炎症组和微生物组，所有这些东西都非常有趣。

But I think that blood pressure doesn't get enough attention.

但我认为血压没有得到足够的重视。

And we have spoken to, on this podcast, to Dr. Peter Attia, who is an expert in longevity, and healthspan, and things of that sort.

我们在这个播客上采访了彼得·阿蒂亚博士，他是长寿、健康寿命等方面的专家。

And I was surprised to learn again, I shouldn't have been surprised, that the number one reason people die worldwide is cerebral vascular disease and cardiovascular disease.

我很惊讶地再次得知，我不应该感到惊讶，全世界人们死亡的首要原因是脑血管疾病和心血管疾病。

And there are basically three things on the list of things to address.

清单上基本上有三件事需要解决。

One is not smoking or vaping, by the way.

顺便说一句，人们不吸烟或电子烟。

There are a few other things related to blood markers, ApoB and things of that sort.

还有其他一些与血液标记物、ApoB 等相关的事情。

But then the big one is blood pressure.

但最重要的是血压。

And so, it's interesting because we don't think about blood pressure that much anymore as the kind of people interested in health optimization and health.

所以，这很有趣，因为我们不再像那些对健康优化和健康感兴趣的人那样过多地考虑血压。

But blood pressure is so vital to control.

但控制血压非常重要。

So, it's wonderful to hear that deliberate cold exposure is one way to control blood pressure, I'm guessing in concert with other forms of exercise.

因此，很高兴听到刻意的寒冷暴露是控制血压的一种方法，我猜这与其他形式的锻炼相结合。

Let's talk about brown fat.

我们来谈谈棕色脂肪。

And if you're willing, I'd love to drill into brown fat at a deep level.

如果你愿意的话，我很愿意深入研究棕色脂肪。

Again, my understanding of this is far more elementary than yours obviously.

再说一次，我对此的理解显然比你的要初级得多。

You're the expert.

你是专家。

My understanding about Brown fat is that it's located in specific areas of our body, maybe more widespread than when I learned in school.

我对棕色脂肪的理解是，它位于我们身体的特定区域，可能比我在学校学到的更广泛。

I was taught it was just at the clavicles in the back of the neck and upper back, but who knows?

有人告诉我它就在颈后和上背部的锁骨处，但谁知道呢？

I learned that there's more of it when we're children, maybe more distributed throughout our body, and that it's rich in mitochondria.

我了解到，当我们还是孩子的时候，它的数量更多，可能更多地分布在我们的全身，而且它富含线粒体。

But what is so special about the brown fat?

但棕色脂肪有什么特别之处呢？

Like if we could just go into the biology of brown fat a little bit, what does it look like?

就像我们可以稍微了解一下棕色脂肪的生物学一样，它是什么样子的？

You've measured it in human subjects.

你已经在人类受试者中测量了它。

Where is it distributed really?

它实际上分布在哪里？

Can it expand its distribution?

能否扩大其分布范围？

Can we activate and expand the amount of brown fat as adults?

成年后我们可以激活并增加棕色脂肪的数量吗？

And for those of you that are cringing already thinking we're talking about getting fatter, it's quite the opposite.

对于那些已经认为我们正在谈论变胖而感到畏缩的人来说，事实恰恰相反。

We're talking about not subcutaneous fat, but fat located around the organs.

我们谈论的不是皮下脂肪，而是位于器官周围的脂肪。

But please educate me, tell me where I'm wrong, and expand my knowledge on brown fat.

但请教育我，告诉我哪里错了，并扩展我对棕色脂肪的知识。

SUSANNA SØBERG: OK.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 好的。

Yeah.

是的。

You're not wrong.

你没有错。

But it's true that there are more locations of the brown fat than we previously thought.

但确实，棕色脂肪的位置比我们之前想象的要多。

There's this very nice study from 2017 by Leitner et Al, where they had made these opacities overlays of their subjects, where they could see where in the body do we have brown fat and where can we grow more brown fat so to say.

Leitner 等人在 2017 年进行了一项非常出色的研究，他们对受试者进行了这些不透明的叠加，这样他们就可以看到身体中的哪些部位有棕色脂肪，以及可以说我们在哪里可以生长更多的棕色脂肪。

So, the brown fat is very plastic.

所以，棕色脂肪的可塑性很强。

So, it means that it can grow, and it can decrease.

所以，这意味着它可以增长，也可以减少。

And this is proven in studies where we have seen people with pheochryocytoma, is like a very specific cancer type where from the '70s where we can see that if they have this specific kind of cancer type, they have this tumor on their adrenal gland.

这在研究中得到了证明，我们看到嗜铬细胞瘤患者就像一种非常特殊的癌症类型，从 70 年代开始，我们可以看到，如果他们患有这种特定类型的癌症，他们的肾上腺上就会有这种肿瘤。

So, they have a huge increase in noradrenaline.

因此，他们的去甲肾上腺素大量增加。

And because of that, they have this continuous activation of the brown fat.

正因为如此，它们的棕色脂肪才会持续被激活。

And they have grown a lot of brown fat in whole body, abdomen or where it's located in these six different places, but it is less like very much compared to normal people.

而且他们全身、腹部或者这六个不同的地方都长出了很多棕色脂肪，但是比正常人少了很多。

And what they then see, what we learned from this study is that brown fat can apparently grow if you have an increase in noradrenaline in the body.

然后他们看到，我们从这项研究中了解到，如果体内去甲肾上腺素增加，棕色脂肪显然会生长。

It's not like you want that because when that happens, you have a high blood pressure.

这不是你想要的，因为当这种情况发生时，你就会患上高血压。

You don't want it chronically, right?

你不想长期这样，对吧？

You just want it on like short amount of time.

你只想让它持续很短的时间。

And then it can grow for a bit.

然后它可以增长一点。

But you don't want it chronically, of course not.

但你不希望它长期存在，当然不是。

But because it activates also your sympathetic nervous system, so they also showed they have high blood pressure.

但因为它也会激活你的交感神经系统，所以他们也显示出他们患有高血压。

They lost a lot of weight, of course, because this is activating your metabolism.

当然，他们的体重减轻了很多，因为这正在激活你的新陈代谢。

So, they found luckily that when they removed this benign tumor, that the brown fat decreases again to normal size.

因此，他们幸运地发现，当切除这个良性肿瘤时，棕色脂肪会再次减少到正常大小。

And they gained weight again, and they had normal blood pressure.

他们的体重又增加了，血压也正常了。

So, the story ends well.

所以，故事的结局很好。

But it's kind of like proof of concept of the brown fat can actually grow.

但这有点像棕色脂肪实际上可以生长的概念证明。

So, it's plastic in its way of like it can grow, and it can decrease again.

所以，它是可塑的，它可以增长，也可以再次减少。

So that's very good.

所以这非常好。

Good studies to see what the body is capable of.

很好的研究来看看身体的能力。

But we don't of course want all that brown fat.

但我们当然不想要那么多棕色脂肪。

We just want to keep it actually and keep it activated because what we see in studies is also that after the age of 40, studies have shown that there is an association with having less brown fat but increase obesity.

我们只是想实际保留它并保持它的激活，因为我们在研究中看到的是，40岁之后，研究表明棕色脂肪减少但肥胖增加存在关联。

So of course, we don't know yet whether brown fat decreases with age and therefore we get obese, or we get obese and therefore, we have less brown fat.

当然，我们还不知道棕色脂肪是否会随着年龄的增长而减少，因此我们会变得肥胖，或者我们会变得肥胖，因此我们的棕色脂肪会减少。

But as Brown fat is an insulin-sensitive organ in our body and we get obese, just like the muscles get less insulin sensitive, the brown fat does as well.

但由于棕色脂肪是我们体内对胰岛素敏感的器官，我们会变得肥胖，就像肌肉对胰岛素的敏感性降低一样，棕色脂肪也会变得肥胖。

And therefore, it maybe decreases.

因此，它可能会减少。

It could be a theory that I think could be one of the reasons why we don't see that much Brown fat in elderly people.

我认为这可能是我们在老年人中看不到那么多棕色脂肪的原因之一。

Some have a lot, especially people working outside.

有些人有很多，尤其是在外面工作的人。

There are studies showing this.

有研究表明这一点。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Work outside.

SUSANNA SØBERG： 在外面工作。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

SUSANNA SØBERG: They expose themselves to it.

SUSANNA SØBERG：他们将自己暴露在其中。

So, they will just keep it in that way.

所以，他们只会保持这种方式。

Yeah.

是的。

It's interesting to me.

这对我来说很有趣。

I usually work out at home, but I go to a gym once or twice a week if I can because it's good if I see the outside world.

我通常在家锻炼，但如果可以的话，我每周去健身房一两次，因为如果我能看看外面的世界就很好。

And there are a few individuals at the gym who, they're not particularly large or muscular, but they are incredibly lean, and their posture is great, presumably from the musculoskeletal work.

健身房里有一些人，他们的身材不是特别高大，肌肉也不是特别发达，但他们却非常苗条，而且他们的姿势也很棒，大概是因为肌肉骨骼的锻炼。

And they're in their 70s and 80s.

他们已经70多岁和80多岁了。

I mean, it's remarkable.

我的意思是，这很了不起。

And I know all the telltale signs of hormone augmentation.

我知道荷尔蒙增加的所有明显迹象。

I'm very good at spotting that.

我很擅长发现这一点。

There are a few telltale signs.

有一些明显的迹象。

I've talked about this on other podcast.

我在其他播客上谈到过这个问题。

And that's not why they're fit.

这并不是他们健康的原因。

They're clearly of that look, and you see this outside the gym too, of course.

他们显然就是那种样子，当然，你在健身房外面也能看到这一点。

For people that look like they've done a lot of physical labor their whole life, they're just moving a lot.

对于那些看起来一生做了很多体力劳动的人来说，他们只是经常搬家而已。

They have strong hands and features.

他们有强壮的双手和五官。

And they're not necessarily excessively lean, but you can tell that they've been using their musculoskeletal system.

他们不一定非常瘦，但你可以看出他们一直在使用他们的肌肉骨骼系统。

And I like to talk to these people and ask them like not what are you doing now for your workout, but what did you grow up doing?

我喜欢和这些人交谈，问他们的问题不是你现在在做什么锻炼，而是你从小到大在做什么？

And I would say, and obviously, I haven't run statistics on this.

我想说，显然，我还没有对此进行统计。

But more than 75% of them respond that they grew up on a farm, or that they did some sort of manual labor, or a postman, or a postwoman, or doing something where they moved a lot for their early years and throughout middle age.

但超过 75% 的人回答说，他们在农场长大，或者从事某种体力劳动，或者当邮递员或女邮递员，或者做一些他们在早年和整个中年经常搬家的事情。

And most of them are now in retirement, but some of them are still working, and they all still moving a lot.

他们中的大多数人现在已经退休了，但其中一些人仍在工作，而且他们仍然经常搬家。

So, the relationship between shiver and brown fat makes sense to me.

所以，颤抖和棕色脂肪之间的关系对我来说是有道理的。

But is it the case that as we're just moving around, and I've heard of NEAT, non-exercise induced thermogenesis.

但当我们只是四处走动时，我听说过 NEAT、非运动诱导生热作用。

So, if we're just moving around that we are activating brown fat or does there need to be this stressor?

那么，如果我们只是四处走动，我们就会激活棕色脂肪，或者是否需要这种压力源？

Does there need to be shiver and a cold stimulus or a heat stimulus to activate the brown fat?

是否需要颤抖和冷刺激或热刺激才能激活棕色脂肪？

In other words, is just staying active enough, or do we need to do some sort of temperature, shock type thing like deliberate cold exposure?

换句话说，仅仅保持活跃就足够了，还是我们需要做一些温度、冲击类型的事情，比如故意暴露在寒冷中？

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

I think that is a really good question because how-- also, why do we have this tissue then?

我认为这是一个非常好的问题，因为我们为什么会有这种组织呢？

If it has to be extreme, then you can question what do we need this tissue for?

如果一定要极端，那么你可能会问我们需要这张纸巾做什么？

But it seems that you can activate the brown fat with just a little bit of exposure to cold.

但似乎只要稍微接触一下寒冷就可以激活棕色脂肪。

So cold is the most potent stressor activator of our brown fat because it's our temperature regulating organ in our body.

寒冷是我们棕色脂肪最有效的压力激活剂，因为它是我们体内的温度调节器官。

So, first responder to that.

所以，第一反应者。

So, the muscles will be a little bit too late, and therefore, we have maybe these two kind of tissues.

所以，肌肉会有点太晚了，因此，我们可能有这两种组织。

So actually, just exposing yourself or a hand actually just to cold water.

所以实际上，只需将自己或手暴露在冷水中即可。

So, studies have shown that if you just put your hand in cold water, not that you're going to do that all day, or every day, or anything.

因此，研究表明，如果您只是将手放入冷水中，并不意味着您会整天或每天都这样做。

It's not something you have to do but.

这不是你必须做的事情，但是。

It just shows that you can activate your brown fat just by getting a temperature change on your skin.

它只是表明，只需改变皮肤温度即可激活棕色脂肪。

So, you can go outside in a t-shirt.

所以，你可以穿着T恤出去。

That's why also, we were just talking about, well, people who work outside, or move a lot, or get in and out of, like changing the temperature of their body all the time, they will have more brown fat.

这也是为什么，我们刚才谈论的是，在外面工作的人，或者经常搬家，或者进进出出，比如一直改变身体温度的人，他们会有更多的棕色脂肪。

And activating that is going to keep your metabolism higher and your insulin sensitivity.

激活它将使您的新陈代谢保持较高水平并提高胰岛素敏感性。

Studies have also shown this.

研究也表明了这一点。

So, the Brown fat can be activated as soon as you just change your temperature in the skin.

因此，只要改变皮肤温度，棕色脂肪就会被激活。

So going outside in a t-shirt, wearing cooling vests, also studies have shown this.

因此，研究也表明了这一点，即穿着 T 恤、穿着降温背心外出。

For 10 days, it's going to also grow your brown fat.

在 10 天里，你的棕色脂肪也会增长。

So, you can get more brown fat if you expose yourself to the cold.

因此，如果你暴露在寒冷的环境中，你会获得更多的棕色脂肪。

You don't have to start in a cold shower.

您不必从冷水澡开始。

You don't have to start in a cold plunge if you're not really ready for that yet.

如果你还没有真正准备好，你不必从冷跳开始。

But just exposing yourself to the cold wind has also shown to activate your brown fat.

但事实证明，仅仅让自己暴露在冷风中也会激活你的棕色脂肪。

Or if you don't want to be like in this awake state, then you can also just sleep in the cold.

或者如果你不想像这样清醒的状态，那么你也可以在寒冷中睡觉。

And you won't notice it that much maybe.

也许你不会太注意到它。

But studies have shown that if you sleep in 19 degrees Celsius.

但研究表明，如果你在19摄氏度的环境下睡觉。

Then you will activate your brown fat, and you will grow your brown fat, so you have more of it.

然后你会激活你的棕色脂肪，你会生长你的棕色脂肪，所以你会有更多。

So, this very nice studies from Hansen et al from 2017 showed that a group of subjects who slept in a room at 24 degrees.

因此，Hansen 等人 2017 年的这项非常出色的研究表明，一组受试者睡在温度为 24 度的房间里。

And then they made this PET CT scanning to see how much brown fat do they have from the beginning, so what we call baseline.

然后他们进行了 PET CT 扫描，看看他们从一开始就有多少棕色脂肪，也就是我们所说的基线。

Then they measured again after a month of sleeping in 19 degrees.

然后他们在 19 度的环境下睡了一个月后再次测量。

And they saw, I think it's remarkable, just one month at 19 degrees sleeping there, they had a duvet on.

他们发现，我认为这很了不起，仅仅一个月，他们就在 19 度的温度下睡觉，还盖着羽绒被。

And they still had clothes on when they're sleeping.

而且他们睡觉的时候还穿着衣服。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Under a duvet.

SUSANNA SØBERG： 在羽绒被下。

Yeah.

是的。

The subjects were sleeping at 19 degrees for one month had increased its insulin sensitivity.

受试者在19度的温度下睡眠一个月后其胰岛素敏感性增加。

The next month, they slept at 24 degrees.

接下来的一个月，他们的睡眠温度为 24 度。

They measured this again, and they had decreased actually a little bit.

他们又测量了一遍，结果确实减少了一点。

And then they slept at the 27 degrees.

然后他们在27度的温度下睡觉。

So quite warm room actually for the fourth month.

实际上第四个月的房间相当温暖。

And they saw even less activation of the brown fat and also insulin sensitivity.

他们发现棕色脂肪的激活和胰岛素敏感性甚至更少。

So, it seems that you can expose yourself, and pretty rapidly, the brown fat will respond to this because it's so sensitive to noradrenaline.

所以，看起来你可以暴露自己，很快，棕色脂肪就会对此做出反应，因为它对去甲肾上腺素非常敏感。

So, if you keep exposing yourself to a little bit of cold, you will also get a little bit adapted to it, but that's because the brown fat has grown these more mitochondria in the cells.

所以，如果你继续让自己暴露在一点寒冷中，你也会有点适应它，但那是因为棕色脂肪在细胞中长出了更多的线粒体。

So, these small energy fabrics that's going to activate the cells, and that's going to take up glucose and fat from the fatty acids, from the bloodstream, to keep the thermogenesis up.

因此，这些小型能量织物将激活细胞，并从血液中的脂肪酸中吸收葡萄糖和脂肪，以保持生热作用。

And that's going to clear up some sugar, and it's going to clear up so in the bloodstream and some fat as well.

这会清除一些糖分，也会清除血液中的糖分和一些脂肪。

So, the brown fat can in that way decrease our unhealthy fat, which is the white fat.

因此，棕色脂肪可以通过这种方式减少我们的不健康脂肪，即白色脂肪。

And the white fat is what we don't want too much of, but we still need some, of course.

白色脂肪是我们不需要太多的，但当然我们仍然需要一些。

And it's our energy storage, so it's very important that it's there.

它是我们的能量存储，所以它的存在非常重要。

We just don't need a lot of it.

我们只是不需要太多。

So, on our thighs and also around our inner organs, that's where it's located.

所以，在我们的大腿上以及我们的内脏器官周围，这就是它所在的位置。

So, if we can have activation of the brown fat just by going out in the cold and just by sleeping in a cold room.

所以，如果我们仅仅通过在寒冷的天气里外出和在寒冷的房间里睡觉就能激活棕色脂肪。

Or if you have courage for it, you can go out and expose yourself in a cold plunge.

或者，如果你有勇气，你可以出去，让自己暴露在寒冷的水中。

Cold showers is also going to do the trick.

冷水淋浴也能起到作用。

So, you can do different variations of this.

因此，您可以对此进行不同的变体。

Just exposing yourself to various temperatures is going to activate the brown fat because it was involved to keep us in a perfect homeostatic balance regarding temperature.

只要将自己暴露在不同的温度下就会激活棕色脂肪，因为它可以让我们在温度方面保持完美的稳态平衡。

So, to keep us alive.

所以，为了让我们活下去。

SUSANNA SØBERG: I think so, yeah, because you have so many receptors in your face.

SUSANNA SØBERG： 我想是的，是的，因为你的脸上有很多受体。

Actually, it's enough.

其实，已经足够了。

And I think it corresponds very well with the studies showing that you can activate the brown fat just by putting a hand into a bucket of cold water.

我认为这与研究非常吻合，研究表明只需将手放入一桶冷水中即可激活棕色脂肪。

And I did this experiment myself in my studies just to see how well did they respond to cold water.

我在研究中自己做了这个实验，只是为了看看它们对冷水的反应如何。

So, it was 4 degrees Celsius cold water for 4 minutes.

所以，是4摄氏度的冷水4分钟。

And then I just measured blood pressure and heart rate to see, do they have an activation of this?

然后我测量了血压和心率，看看它们是否激活了这个？

I actually also measured the brown fat during this cold exposure for 4 minutes with an infrared thermography camera to see, can I see that the brown fat is activated?

我其实还用红外热像仪测量了这次冷暴露4分钟的过程中的棕色脂肪，看看我能看到棕色脂肪被激活了吗？

And just to go back to the location of the brown fat.

回到棕色脂肪的位置。

So usually, you cannot really see activation of your brown fat because it's located centrally around your central nervous system.

因此，通常情况下，您无法真正看到棕色脂肪的激活，因为它位于中枢神经系统的中央。

And the biggest depot, as you mentioned before, is up here under the clavicular bones and very close to the skin surface.

正如您之前提到的，最大的仓库位于锁骨下方，非常靠近皮肤表面。

And because it's so close to the skin surface, I could measure it with this very expensive camera.

因为它非常接近皮肤表面，所以我可以用这个非常昂贵的相机来测量它。

And it's not very feasible for people to go home and do this don't because it takes a lot of practice, I can tell.

我可以看出，人们回家做这件事不太可行，因为这需要大量练习。

But we measured the brown fat with this.

但我们用这个测量了棕色脂肪。

And I could see that after a few minutes that the activation was there, an increase in temperature arose from that activation, just 4 minutes.

我可以看到，激活发生几分钟后，激活导致温度升高，仅 4 分钟。

So, it's very rapid and I'm also measured in my study how deep was the Brown fat under your skin.

所以，它的速度非常快，我还在研究中测量了皮肤下棕色脂肪的深度。

So, it's very close to the surface, which also shows that it needs to be there to heat you up and heat your inner organs.

所以，它非常接近表面，这也表明它需要在那里给你加热并加热你的内部器官。

The guy who I worked for at the time, Harry Carlisle was a very accomplished physiologist.

我当时为他工作的哈里·卡莱尔是一位非常有成就的生理学家。

He came from this lineage.

他来自这个血统。

I don't know if this literature is still discussed much, but it's a beautiful literature from Rothwell and Stock.

我不知道这些文献是否仍然被广泛讨论，但这是罗斯韦尔和斯托克的美丽文献。

They were the ones who discovered non-exercise induced thermogenesis.

他们是发现非运动诱导产热的人。

The fact that people who bounce their legs a lot, and move around a lot, and have a lot of stochastic movement burn up to 1,800 calories more per day than people who sit more still.

事实上，经常弹腿、经常走动和进行大量随机运动的人每天比坐着不动的人多燃烧 1,800 卡路里。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Fascinating.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 令人着迷。

And Dr. Carlisle, Harry, said, well, the key is to wear a t-shirt in here for about two or three days, and then you will cold-adapt.

卡莱尔博士哈利说，好吧，关键是在这里穿一件T恤大约两三天，然后你就会适应寒冷。

I thought, well, wouldn't I want to put on a hoodie and get warm in there, so I was comfortable?

我想，好吧，我难道不想穿上连帽衫并在里面取暖吗，这样我就舒服了？

And he said, no. Actually, what you want to do is get yourself uncomfortably cold, activate your brown fat.

他说，不。事实上，你想做的就是让自己感到不舒服的寒冷，激活你的棕色脂肪。

And indeed, when I did that, I think it was just two days of being in that cold environment.

事实上，当我这样做时，我认为在那个寒冷的环境中只呆了两天。

Then I could come back on the third day and be perfectly comfortable because the brown fat had expanded, or added mitochondria, or both.

然后我可以在第三天回来并感到非常舒适，因为棕色脂肪已经扩大，或者添加了线粒体，或者两者兼而有之。

And I was perfectly comfortable in that environment.

我在那个环境中感到非常舒服。

I also got very, very lean in those days and weeks.

在那几天和几周里，我也变得非常非常瘦。

Now I've never been somebody who's very lean, nor am I somebody who carries a lot of excess adipose tissue.

现在我从来都不是一个非常瘦的人，也不是一个携带大量多余脂肪组织的人。

I'm kind of somewhere in the middle.

我介于两者之间。

I'm sure I could adjust that with feeding if I want to.

我确信如果我愿意的话我可以通过喂食来调整它。

But it was striking what a powerful effect it had on my entire system of thermal regulation.

但令人惊讶的是它对我的整个热调节系统产生了如此强大的影响。

And one of the things that I also delighted in when Cell Reports Medicine published your study is they had an accompanying press release that went out to those of us that receive press releases.

当 Cell Reports Medicine 发表您的研究时，我还感到高兴的一件事是他们附有一份新闻稿，该新闻稿发给了我们这些收到新闻稿的人。

And it described a saying in Scandinavia which is essentially, I'm not going to attempt to speak Danish, even though I have much of my family is in Denmark, believe it or not, from Denmark.

它描述了斯堪的纳维亚半岛的一句话，本质上是，我不会尝试说丹麦语，尽管我的大部分家人都在丹麦，不管你信不信，他们来自丹麦。

We have a lot of Danes in my family.

我们家里有很多丹麦人。

I won't embarrass myself by trying to speak Danish as I did before the microphones were rolling.

我不会像在麦克风响起之前那样尝试说丹麦语，从而让自己感到尴尬。

That there's a saying that I think essentially translates to in the fall, when you're approaching winter, you want to actually wear fewer layers, not bundle up, when you go outside, so that you can prepare yourself for the cold of winter and be able to heat yourself up using your brown fat.

我认为有句话基本上可以翻译为在秋天，当你接近冬天时，当你外出时，你实际上应该少穿几层衣服，而不是裹得严严实实的，这样你就可以为寒冷的冬天做好准备，并能够利用棕色脂肪给自己取暖。

And that in the spring, as the temperatures are warming, rather than removing layers, you want to wear more layers in order to be a little bit uncomfortably warm, so that in the heat of the summer, you're better at cooling your body.

而且在春天，随着气温变暖，你不想脱掉衣服，而是想穿更多的衣服，这样会有点不舒服，这样在炎热的夏天，你可以更好地给身体降温。

Do I have that right?

我有这个权利吗？

And maybe do you know the saying, and would you be willing to share it?

也许你知道这句话，你愿意分享吗？

Only the Swedes and Danes will be able to understand.

只有瑞典人和丹麦人才能理解。

Maybe the Norwegians too.

也许挪威人也是如此。

If you don't know it, that's OK.

如果您不知道，也没关系。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

So, I know the concept of it because we say it.

所以，我知道它的概念，因为我们这么说。

You should wear a less before winter and more before summer.

入冬前应少穿，入夏前应多穿。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

And you're completely right.

你是完全正确的。

And I think this is just something that we know in the Scandinavian countries, I think that we intuitively know this.

我认为这只是我们在斯堪的纳维亚国家所知道的事情，我认为我们直观地知道这一点。

But if we just go back a little bit in history, I think that around the 1950s, the Russian government went out and said, well, we should do something about tuberculosis pandemic or epidemic there was at this time.

但如果我们回顾一下历史，我认为在 20 世纪 50 年代左右，俄罗斯政府出来说，好吧，我们应该对当时出现的结核病大流行或流行病采取一些措施。

So, they wanted to have the people be more resilient to the cold and also increase our immune system.

因此，他们希望人们能够更好地抵御寒冷，并增强我们的免疫系统。

So, in Scandinavia, and actually also in Russia, we put our babies outside to sleep in the prom.

因此，在斯堪的纳维亚半岛，实际上也在俄罗斯，我们把孩子放在外面的舞会上睡觉。

And that is like to also to get more resistant to the cold but also to increase our immune system.

这不仅可以增强我们对寒冷的抵抗力，还可以增强我们的免疫系统。

And we still do that in Denmark.

我们在丹麦仍然这样做。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah, we do.

SUSANNA SØBERG： 是的，我们愿意。

SUSANNA SØBERG: In the snow, in frosty rain, everything.

SUSANNA SØBERG： 在雪中，在霜雨中，一切。

My two boys have been sleeping out in winter, or at least their first many three, four, five years because it's very good for them, and they get a better immune system and get resilient to the cold, so they will have less colds.

我的两个儿子冬天都在外面露宿，或者至少在他们的前三、四年、五年里都在外面露宿，因为这对他们非常有好处，他们的免疫系统会更好，对寒冷的抵抗力也更强，所以他们会更少感冒。

And also, they run around in a t-shirt when it's super cold because they have activated all their brown fat.

而且，当天气非常冷时，他们会穿着T恤到处跑，因为他们已经激活了所有的棕色脂肪。

I didn't understand at that time, I must say.

我必须说，我当时不明白。

But I kind of intuitively also knew because we have inherited this way of doing things with our culture.

但我直觉上也知道，因为我们继承了我们文化中的这种做事方式。

And I have heard people coming from the US saying Danes are crazy.

我听到来自美国的人说丹麦人疯了。

They put their babies outside in proms and leave them there.

他们在舞会上把孩子放在外面，然后把他们留在那里。

And then they go inside and drink coffee on the cafes.

然后他们进去咖啡馆喝咖啡。

But it did strike me that people in Copenhagen are dramatically fitter than they are in the United States.

但令我震惊的是，哥本哈根的人们比美国的人健康得多。

I mean, first of all, everyone's bicycling everywhere.

我的意思是，首先，每个人都骑自行车。

Not many people wearing sunglasses.

戴墨镜的人不多。

So, trying to extract as much photon energy from the sun as possible, which I support.

因此，尝试从太阳中提取尽可能多的光子能量，我对此表示支持。

As everyone knows, I'm a big fan of getting sun.

众所周知，我非常喜欢晒太阳。

But also, when we did see swimmers, they were swimming in this cold water like it was nothing.

而且，当我们确实看到游泳者时，他们在冰冷的水中游泳，就像什么都没有一样。

And the range in age of the swimmers was remarkable.

游泳运动员的年龄差距也很大。

You saw the kind of fit, triathlete-looking types but also young kids, like really young kids.

你看到了那种身体健康、看起来像铁人三项运动员的类​​型，但也看到了小孩子，就像真正的小孩子一样。

And then people probably in their again their 70s, 80s, maybe even 90s.

然后人们可能又回到了 70 多岁、80 多岁，甚至可能是 90 多岁。

Really remarkable.

真的很了不起。

Vastly different than what you she have to go to the ocean here in Los Angeles or elsewhere.

与你去洛杉矶或其他地方的海洋有很大不同。

So yeah, you Scandinavians are on to something with this.

所以，是的，你们斯堪的纳维亚人对此有所了解。

I'd like to take a quick break and thank our sponsor, InsideTracker.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 InsideTracker。

InsideTracker is a personalized nutrition platform that analyzes data from your blood and DNA to help you better understand your body and help you reach your health goals.

InsideTracker 是一个个性化营养平台，可分析您的血液和 DNA 数据，帮助您更好地了解您的身体并帮助您实现健康目标。

I've long been a believer in getting regular blood work done for the simple reason that many of the factors that impact your immediate and long-term health can only be assessed with a quality blood test.

长期以来，我一直坚信定期进行血液检查，原因很简单，影响您当前和长期健康的许多因素只能通过高质量的血液测试来评估。

The problem with a lot of blood and DNA tests out there, however, is that they'll give you information about certain lipid markers or hormone markers but no information about what to do with all of that data.

然而，大量血液和 DNA 测试的问题在于，它们会为您提供有关某些脂质标记或激素标记的信息，但不会提供有关如何处理所有这些数据的信息。

InsideTracker makes it very easy to look at your levels of hormones, metabolic factors, lipids, et cetera.

InsideTracker 让您可以轻松查看您的激素、代谢因子、血脂等水平。

And then to assess what sorts of behavioral, nutritional, supplementation, or perhaps other interventions you might want to use in order to bring those numbers into the ranges that are optimal for your health.

然后评估您可能想要使用哪些类型的行为、营养、补充剂或其他干预措施，以使这些数字达到最适合您健康的范围。

InsideTracker's ultimate plan now includes three new hormone markers that are critical to measure during a woman's reproductive and menopausal years.

InsideTracker 的最终计划现在包括三种新的激素标记物，这些标记物对于女性生育期和更年期的测量至关重要。

These are estradiol, progesterone, and thyroid stimulating hormone.

它们是雌二醇、黄体酮和促甲状腺激素。

If you'd like to try InsideTracker, you can go to insidetracker.com/huberman to get 20% off any of InsideTracker's plans.

如果您想尝试 InsideTracker，您可以访问 insidetracker.com/huberman，享受任何 InsideTracker 计划 20% 的折扣。

Again, that's insidetracker.com/huberman to get 20% off.

同样，在 insidetracker.com/huberman 上可以获得 20% 的折扣。

I'd like to talk about your study.

我想谈谈你的学习。

If you could give us a little bit of the backdrop about what motivated that study.

您能给我们介绍一下这项研究的动机是什么吗？

And then walk us through what you did.

然后向我们介绍您所做的事情。

Who the subjects were, what you had them do, what you measured, in as much detail as you would like to share because I think it's such an important, even fair to say, landmark study because it also explored not just cold but sauna and the co-use of cold and sauna as a way to probe metabolism and brown fat and other markers as well.

受试者是谁，你让他们做了什么，你测量了什么，尽可能详细地分享，因为我认为这是一项非常重要的、甚至可以说是具有里程碑意义的研究，因为它不仅探索了寒冷，还探索了桑拿，以及冷和桑拿的共同使用作为探测新陈代谢、棕色脂肪和其他标记物的一种方式。

And as you do this, I'm hoping at some point that you might tell us some of the observations that you might have made that interested you that perhaps were not in the paper because that's one of the great benefits of sitting across from somebody who did the work in detail.

当你这样做时，我希望你能在某个时候告诉我们一些你可能感兴趣的观察结果，但这些观察结果可能没有出现在论文中，因为这是坐在详细完成这项工作的人对面的最大好处之一。

So yeah, if you could tell us about your study, and what you did, and what you discovered.

是的，如果你能告诉我们你的研究、你做了什么以及你发现了什么。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Thank you for that question, Andrew.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 谢谢你提出这个问题，安德鲁。

I'd love to also explain a little bit what did we do because when people read this kind of paper, they just see the numbers.

我还想解释一下我们做了什么，因为当人们阅读此类论文时，他们只会看到数字。

They don't see what happened before that.

他们看不到之前发生了什么。

And human studies are very different from my study.

人类的研究和我的研究有很大不同。

My studies, you can do a knockout of something, and then everything is like perfectly matched and controlled.

我的研究是，你可以击倒某些东西，然后一切都变得完美匹配和受控。

Doing human studies is very different from that because people are different, even in the groups.

进行人类研究与此有很大不同，因为人是不同的，即使在群体中也是如此。

So yeah.

所以是的。

When I started this research in 2016, I did not really know what the brown fat was.

当我 2016 年开始这项研究时，我并不真正知道棕色脂肪是什么。

So, I started reading up on all this.

所以，我开始阅读所有这些内容。

And I was very interested in preventive medicine.

我对预防医学非常感兴趣。

And also, the studies that I did before, brown fat was also very much in the preventive side, like how can we-- that was about something else, but the sweet tooth, and how can we lower our sweet tooth, and stuff like that.

而且，我之前所做的研究，棕色脂肪也非常具有预防作用，比如我们如何才能——那是关于其他事情，但关于甜食，以及我们如何才能减少我们对甜食的喜爱，诸如此类的东西。

But after that I, wanted to do something new.

但在那之后我想做一些新的事情。

So, I looked into the brown fat, got hired in this fantastic research group, where it's the cell group.

因此，我研究了棕色脂肪，并被这个出色的研究小组聘用，这是细胞小组。

So, they mostly did cell studies, and they didn't have anyone to do a human study yet.

所以，他们主要进行细胞研究，还没有人进行人体研究。

But they really wanted me to do that.

但他们真的希望我这么做。

So, I read up on a lot of research about how does the brown fat get activated?

所以，我读了很多关于棕色脂肪如何被激活的研究？

What have been done already?

已经做了什么？

And I mentioned the paper before with sleeping in the cold.

我之前提到过在寒冷中睡觉的论文。

I found that particular paper very fascinating.

我发现那篇特别的论文非常有趣。

And that was also where at that time, I was like, OK.

那时我也想，好吧。

So cold exposure as an intervention of sleeping in the cold could be a good thing to go out and say, well, people do this.

因此，暴露在寒冷中作为在寒冷中睡觉的一种干预措施可能是一件好事，走出去说，好吧，人们这样做。

But on the other hand, first of all, it was already done.

但另一方面，首先，事情已经完成了。

That was one thing.

那是一回事。

But the other thing was like, well, I wanted to see if we can do some kind of activity.

但另一件事是，好吧，我想看看我们是否可以做某种活动。

So, we can have people move also, go and do something.

所以，我们也可以让人们移动，去做一些事情。

Do something together or whatever.

一起做某事或者其他什么。

And the cold made us think about, well, what about winter swimming?

寒冷让我们思考，冬泳怎么样？

It was kind of like a bit of a joke in the beginning.

一开始这有点像一个笑话。

I was like, winter swimming.

我当时想，冬泳。

Yeah, it's going to activate the brown fat, right?

是的，它会激活棕色脂肪，对吗？

But when we read the literature, we couldn't really find anything about activation of the brown fat with cold water besides hand in a bucket of cold water.

但当我们阅读文献时，除了将手放入一桶冷水中之外，我们确实找不到任何关于用冷水激活棕色脂肪的内容。

That was already there.

那已经在那里了。

So, we were just thinking, OK.

所以，我们只是想，好吧。

So, it should be very potent activation of the brown fat if it's cold water but very different from cold air.

因此，如果是冷水，但与冷空气截然不同，它应该会非常有效地激活棕色脂肪。

So, it was kind of also a new thing we were going into.

所以，这也是我们正在研究的一个新事物。

And we knew that we were going to do more of a proof-of-concept study at the beginning of it because it was like winter swimmers must in theory activate the brown fat, right?

我们知道我们将在开始时进行更多的概念验证研究，因为理论上冬泳者必须激活棕色脂肪，对吗？

But we kind of didn't really was this kind of stressor too much, too little, or what will happen actually?

但我们并没有意识到这种压力太大、太小，或者实际上会发生什么？

But we had this idea about, well, we always say that cold water winter swimming will activate your metabolism.

但我们有这样的想法，我们总是说冷水冬泳会激活你的新陈代谢。

But do we know if it does that?

但我们知道它是否能做到这一点吗？

No, we don't.

不，我们不。

And while this idea was a little bit fun at the beginning, we kind of accepted.

虽然这个想法一开始有点有趣，但我们还是接受了。

It was like, OK, let's just try this out.

就像，好吧，让我们试试这个。

But because we didn't have the funding for it, we was like, OK, let's do a proof-of-concept study.

但因为我们没有资金，所以我们想，好吧，让我们做一个概念验证研究。

Let's go with a small number but enough to see a difference between the groups.

让我们使用少量但足以看出各组之间差异的数字。

So, the power calculation of that study is done on what we know from PET CT scannings of the brown fat.

因此，该研究的功效计算是根据我们从棕色脂肪 PET CT 扫描中了解到的信息进行的。

So that's the main outcome, of course.

当然，这就是主要结果。

And we wanted to go a little bit smaller on the numbers of participants because we wanted to dig a little bit deeper into the different mechanisms and also redo some of the days.

我们希望减少参与者的数量，因为我们想更深入地研究不同的机制，并重做一些日子。

So, I really wanted to do that to see if I can replicate also the findings.

所以，我真的很想这样做，看看我是否也能复制这些发现。

And that's going to take a lot of funding, but it's also going to take a lot of time to do it.

这将需要大量资金，但也需要大量时间来完成。

So, the proof of concept was just going small but looking at different mechanisms.

因此，概念验证只是规模较小，但着眼于不同的机制。

We also took fat biopsies, for example, and looked at the white fat to see if there was any differences between the groups before and after and stuff like that.

例如，我们还进行了脂肪活检，并观察白色脂肪，看看前后组之间是否存在任何差异等。

So that's kind of like how it started.

这有点像事情的开始。

And the first year was like a field study for me.

第一年对我来说就像是一次实地研究。

So, I was not a winter swimmer when I started this.

所以，当我开始这个项目时，我并不是一名冬泳运动员。

SUSANNA SØBERG: No. I wasn't at all.

SUSANNA SØBERG： 不，我根本没有。

And I will say I was a bit afraid of the cold myself.

我会说我自己有点怕冷。

A bit of a cold sissy.

有点高冷娘娘腔。

Always cold, having big socks on and sweaters and stuff like that.

总是很冷，穿着大袜子和毛衣之类的东西。

So, I was like, I am so comfortable.

所以，我想，我很舒服。

I'm just like everybody else.

我和其他人一样。

Very comfortable.

很舒服。

I like being completely temperature neutral.

我喜欢完全保持温度中性。

But I started like playing with this thought, like, well, if this is so healthy, in theory, I should not pack myself up.

但我开始喜欢玩这个想法，就像，好吧，如果这如此健康，理论上，我不应该收拾自己。

I should start not doing that.

我应该开始不这样做。

But the first year, observation of winter swimmers on the jetty.

但第一年，在码头上观察冬泳者。

They kind of joked about it and say, come on, Susanna.

他们开玩笑地说，来吧，苏珊娜。

You need to try this.

你需要尝试一下这个。

You cannot study this unless you have tried it.

除非你尝试过，否则你无法研究它。

And I was like ha, ha.

我当时就觉得哈哈哈。

Very funny.

很搞笑。

Of course, I can do that.

当然，我可以做到。

But I couldn't.

但我不能。

I read the literature.

我读了文献。

I understood in theory what happens when you go into cold water.

我从理论上理解当你进入冷水时会发生什么。

But I completely understood it when I first tried it.

但当我第一次尝试时我就完全理解了。

The first few times, not so funny.

前几次，没那么有趣。

It felt painful.

感觉很痛苦。

It was just like running too long after a long break, and your muscles hurt the day after, right?

就像长时间休息后跑得太久，第二天肌肉就会酸痛一样，对吧？

You completely regret that you took that extra mile.

你完全后悔自己多走了一步。

And I've been doing it for some years now on and off.

我断断续续地这样做已经好几年了。

So just full disclosure, I'm a devotee, and I have family members that hate the cold but have gotten into it and are starting to like it.

所以，完全公开一下，我是一名爱好者，我的家人讨厌寒冷，但已经进入寒冷并开始喜欢它。

And I don't necessarily like the experience in the cold water, but I love the way I feel when I get out.

我不一定喜欢在冷水中的经历，但我喜欢出来时的感觉。

And I'm 100% on that statement about loving it when I get out.

当我出去时，我百分百相信我会喜欢它。

Occasionally, it feels good to be in there.

有时候，呆在里面感觉很好。

It feels invigorating.

感觉很振奋。

And I think I've learned to control the gasp reflex and the hyperventilation, and I just have told myself what we know, which is that the forebrain struggles to engage for the first 20 or 30 seconds.

我想我已经学会了控制喘息反射和过度换气，我只是告诉自己我们所知道的，那就是前脑在最初的 20 或 30 秒内很难投入工作。

But if you can get past that wall, it's far easier to push through.

但如果你能越过那堵墙，突破就会容易得多。

But when you say that it was really uncomfortable, do you mean the experience of getting in, or you also felt lousy afterward?

但你说真的不舒服，是指进去的经历，还是进去后也感觉很糟糕？

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

And very important to clear that out.

弄清楚这一点非常重要。

I only felt very uncomfortable doing it at the moment.

我当时只是觉得这样做很不舒服。

But afterwards, the first time I went with a group, and actually, my husband was there as well because I really wanted someone I knew coming along.

但后来，我第一次跟一群人一起去，实际上，我丈夫也在那里，因为我真的很想要一个我认识的人一起去。

Because it's very normal if you haven't done this before, you feel a little bit anxious about it.

因为如果你以前没有这样做过，你会感到有点焦虑，这是很正常的。

This is shown in studies as well because blood pressure and heart rate goes up in those who are new to this kind of activity.

研究也表明了这一点，因为刚接触这种活动的人血压和心率会升高。

So, I was a little bit anxious about it.

所以，我对此有点着急。

So, it was really uncomfortable just doing it.

所以，仅仅这样做真的很不舒服。

But afterwards, as soon as I got up, I felt fantastic.

但后来，当我起床时，我感觉棒极了。

And we went into the sauna.

我们走进桑拿房。

And I did three rounds because I just loved it.

我玩了三轮，因为我很喜欢它。

I loved the feeling afterwards because you have all these neurotransmitters going in your brain, and you feel more positive.

我喜欢事后的感觉，因为所有这些神经递质都会进入你的大脑，你会感觉更积极。

I feel invigorated.

我感觉精力充沛。

I had so much energy.

我有这么多的精力。

And like I could totally see why people would do this to get energy throughout the day because I definitely had that.

就像我完全可以理解为什么人们会这样做来获得一整天的能量，因为我确实拥有这样的能量。

I didn't have to do three dips to get that.

我不需要做三次浸泡就能得到这个。

I think one would be enough.

我想一个就够了。

And I often do that also now today.

今天我也经常这样做。

I do one dip.

我做一浸。

Sometimes, I do two or three dips in one round, you can say in one day.

有时，我会在一轮中做两到三次浸浴，你可以说一天之内。

But often, it's just one or two times a week.

但通常情况下，每周只有一两次。

For me, that is enough to get that energy and to get that positive feeling.

对我来说，这足以获得能量并获得积极的感觉。

And I think that is also why I put up my study in that way.

我认为这也是我以这种方式进行研究的原因。

I wanted to study the lowest dose, you can say, the lowest amount that we can get away with but still see health benefits.

我想研究最低剂量，你可以说，我们可以逃脱但仍然看到健康益处的最低剂量。

So, what I observed there on the jetty was that some did it a long time.

所以，我在码头上观察到，有些人这样做了很长时间。

They were in the water for a very long time.

他们在水里待了很长时间。

And to me it seemed maybe a bit extreme.

对我来说，这似乎有点极端。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Well, so maybe they were really swimming, and they could be 20 minutes or half an hour.

SUSANNA SØBERG：嗯，所以也许他们真的在游泳，而且可能是 20 分钟或半小时。

SUSANNA SØBERG: That's a long time.

SUSANNA SØBERG： 这已经是很长一段时间了。

And there was like ice.

那里就像冰一样。

And people who came up-- I mean, I just didn't really feel that this is something that I wanted to go out and recommend to people after my Ph.D.--

那些提出来的人——我的意思是，我只是并不真正觉得这是我想在获得博士学位后向人们推荐的东西——

SUSANNA SØBERG: No. Probably not.

SUSANNA SØBERG： 不，可能不是。

It's going to exhaust your cells and make them age too fast.

它会耗尽你的细胞并使它们老化得太快。

So exactly.

确实如此。

When you pass that hormetic stress, the healthy stress level, that's what is happening.

当你通过毒物兴奋压力，即健康的压力水平时，就会发生这样的情况。

The quite opposite is almost chronic stress actually in the cells.

恰恰相反的是细胞中实际上几乎是慢性压力。

Well, what happened then was that I found out that if I want to have this protocol get through ethical committee, I really needed to go very sleek with the not too long and make sure that they were also very healthy and to get approval, of course, of this study.

嗯，然后发生的事情是，我发现，如果我想让这个协议通过伦理委员会，我真的需要在不太长的时间内非常顺利地进行，并确保它们也非常健康，并获得批准，当然，这项研究。

But what I did was to recruit winter swimmers who already had been swimming for two or three seasons.

但我所做的是招募已经游泳两三个赛季的冬泳运动员。

And I just observed them.

我只是观察他们。

I said I'm not going to do an intervention study yet.

我说我还不打算做干预研究。

I did that after.

我后来就这么做了。

But I wanted to do like a proof of concept where they were already adapted to the cold and then compare them to a matched control group who were matched on, you can say diet.

但我想做一个概念证明，让他们已经适应了寒冷，然后将他们与匹配的对照组进行比较，你可以说饮食。

So were they vegetarian or not.

他们是否是素食主义者也是如此。

And one of them was in each group.

每组都有一个人。

SUSANNA SØBERG: No, no, no. Just one in each group.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 不，不，不。每组只有一个。

Yeah.

是的。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

One in each.

各一。

Yeah.

是的。

OK.

好的。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

But they were matched on different things.

但他们在不同的事情上是匹配的。

So, what we usually match them on is also BMI.

所以，我们通常匹配的也是BMI。

And we chose one gender in this study.

我们在这项研究中选择了一种性别。

And we would always choose both men and women normally.

通常我们总是会选择男性和女性。

But we do see that there are different brown fat levels depending on gender.

但我们确实看到，不同性别的棕色脂肪水平有所不同。

So, women have more brown fat than men.

因此，女性比男性拥有更多的棕色脂肪。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

I think it's interesting.

我认为这很有趣。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

Why, actually?

实际上为什么？

I think it's interesting because women are also smaller in size and mass, right?

我认为这很有趣，因为女性的体型和质量也较小，对吧？

But they also have a lower peripheral temperature, especially on hands and ears.

但它们的外围温度也较低，尤其是手和耳朵。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

SUSANNA SØBERG: No, no. No.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 不，不。不。

SUSANNA SØBERG: That's different.

苏珊娜·索伯格：那是不同的。

Something else.

还有别的事。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

Another time.

下次吧。

So, women are just colder physically.

所以，女性只是身体上比较冷而已。

So, on hands and ears, it's measured on that.

所以，在手和耳朵上，它是根据它来测量的。

And feet as well.

还有脚。

So compared to men.

所以与男性相比。

And men have bigger hearts than women.

而且男人的心比女人更大。

And they can pump out more blood peripheral than in a woman's body.

而且它们可以泵出比女性体内更多的末梢血液。

So that could be an explanation for the colder hands, for example.

例如，这可能是手变冷的一个解释。

Thermocomfortable state is also different between genders.

性别之间的热舒适状态也不同。

So, men are more comfortable at 22 degrees Celsius, and women are thermocomfortable at 24 degrees Celsius.

因此，男性在 22 摄氏度下更舒适，女性在 24 摄氏度下更热舒适。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yes.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Explains a lot about also some arguments in the homes where men are turning down the heater, and women are turning up the heater, and they cannot really-- I'm on both sides here.

苏珊娜·索伯格：解释了很多关于家庭中的一些争论，男人关小暖气，女人打开暖气，但他们不能真的——我站在双方的立场上。

I understand the men.

我理解男人们。

We understand the women, but there is a difference there.

我们理解女性，但还是有区别的。

Which was also one of the reasons why we in this proof-of-concept study chose one gender.

这也是我们在这项概念验证研究中选择一种性别的原因之一。

So, it is not like only because we wanted to study men.

所以，这不仅仅是因为我们想研究男性。

It was just to eliminate all the confounding factors which could have an impact on our results.

这只是为了消除所有可能影响我们结果的混杂因素。

So that was one of the reasons.

这就是原因之一。

But also, because yeah, so women have more brown fat than men.

而且，是的，女性比男性拥有更多的棕色脂肪。

And otherwise, we would have to do four groups or something like that.

否则，我们就必须做四组或类似的事情。

And not having funding yet, we were like, OK, we need to do like just one group, just a control group, and a group who were always the winter swimmers.

由于还没有资金，我们就想，好吧，我们需要做一组，一组是对照组，另一组总是冬泳运动员。

So recruited winter swimmers who have been swimming for two to three seasons because I wanted them to be already adapted.

所以招募了已经游泳两到三个赛季的冬泳运动员，因为我希望他们已经适应了。

But not going too long in the water.

但不要在水里待太久。

So, they told me, I did a lot of screening here, of course, beforehand and interviews to ask them how much do you do and how much do you how long do you stay in the water.

所以，他们告诉我，我在这里做了很多筛选，当然，事先和采访，问他们你做了多少，你做了多少，你在水中待了多长时间。

And I monitored how long did they didn't stay in the water and recruited based on that they only did like two to three times per week.

我监控他们没有在水中呆多久，并根据他们每周只呆两到三次来招募。

It seems reasonable for Denmark at least to do that.

至少丹麦这样做似乎是合理的。

And they stayed only in the water for 1 to 2 minutes.

他们只在水中停留1到2分钟。

So, the cold shock subsides very quickly, and you will get this activation of your rest and digest system, which is your parasympathetic nervous system.

因此，冷休克很快就会消退，您的休息和消化系统（即副交感神经系统）将会被激活。

So, the other branch of your autonomous nervous system.

所以，你的自主神经系统的另一个分支。

And you get that activation because you submerge into cold water.

你会因为浸入冷水中而被激活。

And when you do that, you have an activation of your diving response.

当你这样做时，你的潜水反应就会被激活。

And that's going to slow down you can say the consumption of oxygen also in your body.

这会减慢你体内氧气的消耗。

And that's going to slow down your heart rate.

这会减慢你的心率。

But that the parasympathetic response is activated when we put our face into cold water or go underwater.

但当我们把脸放入冷水或水下时，副交感神经反应就会被激活。

And that's a calming relaxation response.

这是一种平静的放松反应。

So, this brings us back to, I don't want to take us off track from you describing the study, but this brings us back to the first question, which is if I go completely underwater for a moment when I start my cold plunge, does that change the physiological outcome as compared to if I just submerge myself up to the neck?

所以，这让我们回到，我不想让我们偏离你描述这项研究的轨道，但这让我们回到第一个问题，即当我开始冷潜时，如果我完全进入水下一会儿，与我只是将自己淹没到颈部相比，这是否会改变生理结果？

And actually, nowadays, there seems to be a little bit of a movement online of people putting a bowl of ice water on their countertop and submerging their face into it.

事实上，现在网上似乎有一种运动，人们将一碗冰水放在台面上，然后将脸浸入其中。

Did you see this?

你看到这个了吗？

As a start, I've seen more and more posts about this.

首先，我看到越来越多关于此的帖子。

So, could you just touch on what the dive reflex is, and why it perhaps activates the parasympathetic response, this calming response?

那么，您能否简单介绍一下什么是潜水反射，以及为什么它可能会激活副交感神经反应，这种镇静反应？

SUSANNA SØBERG: Well, so the diving reflex is activated when you submerge into cold water.

SUSANNA SØBERG：嗯，当你浸入冷水中时，潜水反射就会被激活。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

SUSANNA SØBERG: I haven't read that.

SUSANNA SØBERG： 我还没读过。

I just seen that you can activate your diving response as soon as you go underwater with your body.

我刚刚看到，只要你的身体进入水下，你就可以激活你的潜水反应。

So, you don't have to do it with your face, as far as I understand.

所以，据我了解，你不必用脸来做到这一点。

I could be wrong.

我可能是错的。

Yeah.

是的。

So, when you activate your diving response, you will slow down your oxygen consumption in your body.

因此，当您激活潜水反应时，您会减慢体内的氧气消耗。

And that is because the body tries to preserve oxygen, so you will not get hypothermic too fast.

这是因为身体会尽力保存氧气，这样你的体温就不会过快降低。

So, it's kind of like a survival system in your body.

所以，它有点像你体内的生存系统。

So, this survival system is very important for us, of course.

所以，这个生存系统对于我们来说当然是非常重要的。

So that would be activated.

这样就可以激活了。

And because of that, you will have to, maybe 1 minute or so.

因此，你必须这样做，也许需要 1 分钟左右。

I can't be precise on that because maybe it also varies a bit in humans.

我无法准确地说明这一点，因为也许人类的情况也有所不同。

So, 1 to 2 minutes, you will have full activation of the sympathetic nervous system but also the parasympathetic nervous system.

因此，1 到 2 分钟后，您的交感神经系统和副交感神经系统都会被完全激活。

And that's going to activate, for example, something like serotonin in your brain, which is also good for mental balance and people feeling in mental balance afterwards after they go up.

例如，这会激活你大脑中的血清素之类的东西，这也有利于心理平衡，让人在上升后感觉心理平衡。

So that is like measured on a questionnaire and also measured like on anecdotes.

这就像通过问卷来衡量，也像通过轶事来衡量。

Of course, people tell all the time that they feel good afterwards.

当然，人们总是会说事后感觉良好。

We need studies on this.

我们需要对此进行研究。

So, if anyone's sitting out there thinking that's interesting, then please do some studies on that to get more out on that.

因此，如果有人认为这很有趣，那么请对此进行一些研究以获取更多信息。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

Climbing.

攀登。

Yeah.

是的。

SUSANNA SØBERG: So, they do this two to three times per week.

SUSANNA SØBERG：所以，他们每周这样做两到三次。

And for each time they go, each day they go, they take three rounds, so three dips and two sauna sessions.

他们每次去，每天都会进行三轮，即三次浸泡和两次桑拿。

So, they start in the cold, and they end in the cold water.

因此，它们在寒冷中开始，在冷水中结束。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

SUSANNA SØBERG: About 80 degrees Celsius.

SUSANNA SØBERG：大约 80 摄氏度。

SUSANNA SØBERG: So, they stayed there for 10 to 15 minutes.

SUSANNA SØBERG：所以，他们在那里呆了 10 到 15 分钟。

So, depending on if they went two times per week or three times per week.

因此，取决于他们每周去两次还是每周三次。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Up to 2 minutes.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 最多 2 分钟。

Yeah.

是的。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Ending on the cold.

SUSANNA SØBERG： 寒冷结束。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Of course.

苏珊娜·索伯格：当然。

So, it's a very uncontrolled environment to do this kind of study.

因此，进行此类研究是一个非常不受控制的环境。

But I wanted to do something that was also very close to something people could do for free, going out in nature and use that, and also have the nature.

但我想做的事情也非常接近人们可以免费做的事情，走进大自然并利用它，同时也拥有大自然。

It's very healthy impact on us.

这对我们来说是非常健康的影响。

It lowers our stress level as well.

它也降低了我们的压力水平。

So, by doing so, I also measured the temperature every time they went.

所以，每次他们去的时候我也测量了体温。

So, I have this graph.

所以，我有这个图表。

And it's actually in the "Winter Swimming" book.

其实是在《冬泳》这本书里。

It shows the temperature in Denmark going like from October to April.

它显示了丹麦从十月到四月的气温。

And it's like that's at 12 degrees.

好像是12度。

I think it's around 12 degrees Celsius, the water.

我认为水温大约是12摄氏度。

And then it goes down to 2 degrees on average in January and then up again.

然后一月份平均气温下降到 2 度，然后又上升。

So, it's within the spectrum of very cold water, I would say, from around 15 degrees Celsius and down.

所以，我想说，它属于极冷水的范围，大约 15 摄氏度或更低。

But it was actually not colder than like two to 4 degrees on average when it was the coldest.

但实际上最冷的时候平均气温也不过两到四度。

So, it doesn't have to be that cold to be good enough and enough to activate our metabolism.

所以，不一定要那么冷才足够好，足以激活我们的新陈代谢。

SUSANNA SØBERG: So, I think they did this throughout the day.

SUSANNA SØBERG：所以，我认为他们一整天都在这样做。

So, I didn't control whether they wanted to go in the morning, in the afternoon, or in the evening.

所以，我没有控制他们是早上去、下午去还是晚上去。

At that time where I set up this study, I was not controlling it in that way.

当我开始这项研究时，我并没有以这种方式控制它。

I wanted them to go whenever they had time.

我希望他们一有时间就去。

And I also think that is the most important message to give to people, is do it when you have time.

我还认为这是要传达给人们的最重要的信息，那就是当你有时间的时候就去做。

If doing it when you get home from work, and it's 6:00 in the evening, and this is the time where you can do it, then try out if it's going to impact your sleep or not.

如果在您下班回家时进行，并且是晚上 6:00，这是您可以进行的时间，那么请尝试一下它是否会影响您的睡眠。

If it doesn't impact your sleep, then fine.

如果不影响睡眠就好了。

But you have to try for yourself and find out what works for you.

但你必须亲自尝试并找出适合你的方法。

It's the same for coffee, for example, right?

例如，咖啡也是如此，对吧？

Some people can drink coffee in the evening and go to bed, and they can sleep.

有的人晚上喝咖啡上床睡觉，就可以睡觉了。

I can't.

我不能。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Or exercise.

SUSANNA SØBERG：或者锻炼。

Exactly.

确切地。

So, I can't do that.

所以，我不能那样做。

And that's because the coffee, exercise, cold water immersion is going to activate your sympathetic nervous system.

那是因为咖啡、运动、冷水浸泡会激活你的交感神经系统。

You have an increase in stress response in your body.

您体内的压力反应有所增加。

And that's going to make it really hard to fall asleep for some people at least.

至少对于某些人来说，这会让他们很难入睡。

Maybe you are super exhausted anyways, and then you will just crash anyways.

也许你已经筋疲力尽了，然后你就会崩溃。

But yeah.

但是是的。

But that's the only thing.

但这是唯一的事情。

So, I just told them to do this if they can during the daytime.

所以，我只是告诉他们如果可以的话在白天这样做。

And that's primarily what they also did.

他们也主要这么做了。

How long did it take before you observed significant increases in brown fat, and was it increased density of brown fat or distribution?

您观察到棕色脂肪显着增加需要多长时间？棕色脂肪的密度或分布是否增加？

Was it showing expansion to different regions throughout the body?

它是否表现出向全身不同区域的扩张？

And maybe you could also touch on some of the changes in insulin sensitivity and metabolism.

也许您还可以谈谈胰岛素敏感性和新陈代谢的一些变化。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

Very good question.

非常好的问题。

And I didn't mention this before.

而且我之前没有提到过这一点。

But besides measuring temperature as an outcome for brown fat activity, we also did PET MRI scanning of the brown fat.

但除了测量温度作为棕色脂肪活动的结果外，我们还对棕色脂肪进行了 PET MRI 扫描。

So, this is like the golden standard for measuring brown fat.

所以，这就像测量棕色脂肪的黄金标准。

And it's not very feasible for normal people to get a CT or PET MRI scanning of the brown fat.

对于普通人来说，对棕色脂肪进行 CT 或 PET MRI 扫描不太可行。

It's super expensive.

超级贵。

So, we had both to see if we could have a continuous measure of brown fat in humans because that was already not out there.

因此，我们用两者来看看是否可以连续测量人类的棕色脂肪，因为这已经不存在了。

So, I wanted to see during both the experimental days but also during day and night what kind of like circadian rhythm do we have in our brown fat activity.

所以，我想看看在实验期间以及白天和晚上我们的棕色脂肪活动有什么样的昼夜节律。

So that's why I wanted to have that as well.

这就是为什么我也想拥有它。

So, the PET CT scanning or the PET MRI scanning was to see upon cold activation stimulation for some hours.

因此，PET CT 扫描或 PET MRI 扫描是在冷激活刺激几个小时后进行观察。

Do we have activation?

我们有激活吗？

Can we see the brown fat in this subject.

我们能看到这个主题中的棕色脂肪吗？

And also, during thermoneutrality or thermocomfortable state, how is that activated in each of the group, of course?

当然，在热中性或热舒适状态下，每个组中的热中性或热舒适状态是如何激活的？

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

So, I also measured that how comfortable are you.

所以，我也测量了你的舒适程度。

I made this scale, like visual analog scale, and asked them, how comfortable do you feel with this temperature?

我做了这个量表，就像视觉模拟量表一样，然后问他们，你对这个温度感觉有多舒服？

And throughout the study days, during cold exposure and thermocomfortable day.

在整个研究期间，在寒冷暴露和热舒适的日子里。

I had a whole day where I just kept them thermocomfortable to see do they activate the brown fat if they are just completely thermocomfortable as good as we could get with that because we were asking people on a scale from 1 to 10, and 5 being thermocomfortable, where are you on this scale?

我花了一整天的时间让它们保持热舒适，看看如果它们完全热舒适的话，它们是否会激活棕色脂肪，因为我们用从 1 到 10 的等级来询问人们，5 表示热舒适，你在这个等级上处于什么位置？

So, 1 would be very cold, and 10 would be super burning hot.

所以，1 会非常冷，10 会非常热。

Yeah.

是的。

And so that was a way to try to figure out how do they actually feel also during this study.

因此，这是一种试图弄清楚他们在这项研究中实际感受如何的方法。

I also measured in electromyography, so of muscles, to see, do they shiver during the cooling day?

我还测量了肌电图，比如肌肉，看看它们在寒冷的日子里会颤抖吗？

Sometimes, people shiver before they know they're really shivering.

有时，人们在意识到自己真的在颤抖之前就开始颤抖。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

Well, if you also get adapted to the cold water, you will have less shivering.

好吧，如果你也适应了冷水，你就会少发抖。

There will be less vigorous.

活力就会减弱。

There will be very small.

会有很小的。

So, you wouldn't probably know that you are shivering because the shivering is so small, and the mitochondria in the muscle cells will be so dense that it doesn't need to shiver maybe that much to get that thermogenesis going, compared to when you're completely new to cold water exposure, and you're not adapted.

所以，你可能不会知道你在颤抖，因为颤抖是如此之小，而且肌肉细胞中的线粒体如此密集，以至于与你完全不接触冷水且不适应时相比，它可能不需要颤抖那么多来产生热量。

Then the body needs to create these mitochondria, these energy fabrics to keep you warm.

然后身体需要产生这些线粒体，这些能量结构来让你保持温暖。

And that's also what the exercise is in the beginning.

这也是练习一开始的内容。

But when we measured this, we did see that the winter swimmers were shivering less or having less vigorous shivering when they said I'm cold.

但当我们对此进行测量时，我们确实发现冬泳者在说我冷时颤抖得较少或颤抖得不那么剧烈。

So even though their perception of the cold was pretty similar in the groups, we could see that the activation of the muscles that we measured on were different and more vigorous in the control group.

因此，尽管各组对寒冷的感知非常相似，但我们可以看到，我们测量的肌肉的激活是不同的，并且在对照组中更加活跃。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Well, they got paid a little bit for it, but not much.

SUSANNA SØBERG：嗯，他们为此得到了一点报酬，但不多。

And that's how we do this study--

这就是我们进行这项研究的方式——

SUSANNA SØBERG: So, what we saw was we had this kind of different measures to see what to try and unravel what's actually going on when they are already adapted to the cold water, compared to a control group who was matched on various parameters.

SUSANNA SØBERG：所以，我们看到的是，我们采取了这种不同的措施，看看要尝试什么，并弄清楚当它们已经适应了冷水时，与匹配各种参数的对照组相比，实际发生了什么。

We did see that the winter swimmers had an increased insulin sensitivity.

我们确实发现冬泳运动员的胰岛素敏感性增加。

They produced less insulin on all the experimental days.

他们在所有实验日中产生的胰岛素都较少。

So besides from just cooling them and measuring the brown fat on each of these cooling days.

因此，除了冷却它们并在每个冷却日测量棕色脂肪之外。

There were two cooling days and one thermocomfortable day.

有两天凉爽日和一天热舒适日。

So, I wanted to measure insulin when they were fasting, meaning that they hadn't eaten in 8 hours before the study day.

因此，我想在他们禁食时测量胰岛素，这意味着他们在研究日前 8 小时内没有进食。

And they were completely lying still, not moving, just in a bed.

他们一动不动地躺在床上，一动不动。

And we measured insulin during the experimental day just to see what level are they on.

我们在实验当天测量了胰岛素，只是为了看看它们处于什么水平。

And we could see that the winter swimmer had lower production of insulin.

我们可以看到冬泳运动员的胰岛素产量较低。

And they also, when they had a glucose drink, so we give them that to test before we enroll them in studies to see if they have diabetes, for example, and not knowing, for example.

当他们喝葡萄糖饮料时，我们也会给他们进行测试，然后再让他们参加研究，看看他们是否患有糖尿病，例如，例如，不知道。

That would ruin maybe the study.

那也许会毁掉这项研究。

So, we test for that and see if they have a normal curve.

因此，我们对此进行测试，看看它们是否具有正常曲线。

So, what we did see in that the winter swimmers had a faster glucose clearance in the bloodstream.

因此，我们确实看到冬泳运动员血液中的葡萄糖清除速度更快。

So, after two hours, we could see that they had a lower level, and the curve went down faster than in the control group.

所以，两个小时后，我们可以看到他们的水平较低，而且曲线下降得比对照组更快。

If you want to kill neurons, you put them in an environment where there's too much sugar.

如果你想杀死神经元，你就把它们置于糖分过多的环境中。

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

Very neurotoxic.

非常神经毒性。

And there are mechanisms like insulin that buffer that, keeping blood glucose in reasonable range, so that doesn't happen.

并且有胰岛素等机制可以缓冲这种情况，将血糖保持在合理的范围内，这样就不会发生这种情况。

I mean, I think that's why people will go into insulinemic shock.

我的意思是，我认为这就是人们会出现胰岛素休克的原因。

Hypoglycemic shock is also possible.

低血糖休克也是可能的。

So that range in which neurons are happy is not a tremendously large range.

因此，神经元感到高兴的范围并不是一个很大的范围。

Incidentally, the range in which neurons are happy and surviving is much greater as one gets colder than when you heat up.

顺便说一句，当一个人变冷时，神经元快乐和存活的范围比当你变热时要大得多。

I mean, you can basically destroy brain cells by getting too hot for too long.

我的意思是，如果你长时间处于太热的状态，基本上会破坏脑细胞。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Oh, yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 哦，是的。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Very interesting.

非常有趣。

So, if I do the math, these subjects are in the cold.

所以，如果我算一下，这些科目都是冷门。

Let's say they're doing three rounds of cold for 1 to 2 minutes, two or three times a week, what were the thresholds that you discovered were important for getting these positive changes, such as reduced blood sugar or clearance of blood sugar being more efficient, reduced insulin, improved brown fat distribution and density.

假设他们每周进行三轮冷敷，每次 1 到 2 分钟，您发现对于获得这些积极变化（例如降低血糖或更有效地清除血糖）、减少胰岛素、改善棕色脂肪分布和密度等重要的阈值是多少。

How much cold exposure do people need, how much heat exposure do people need in order to extract these benefits?

为了获得这些好处，人们需要暴露多少冷、多少热？

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

So, when we then calculated the numbers together, we could see that this ended up being 11 minutes in total per week.

因此，当我们一起计算数字时，我们可以看到每周总共 11 分钟。

So not in one session, of course.

当然，这不是一次会议。

But they had two to three visits to the water and the sauna per week.

但他们每周会去水和桑拿浴室两到三次。

So, when we divide that out, it corresponds to being in cold water 1 to 2 minutes at a time.

所以，当我们把它分开时，它相当于每次在冷水中呆 1 到 2 分钟。

But also, in the sauna 10 to 15 minutes at a time.

而且，每次蒸桑拿 10 到 15 分钟。

And I think this is very like also similar to what we see in other studies when we look, for example, to the observational studies from the Finnish cohort study from Laukkanen et al, for example.

我认为这与我们在其他研究中看到的情况非常相似，例如，劳卡宁等人的芬兰队列研究中的观察性研究。

They published this very amazing paper in 2015.

他们在 2015 年发表了这篇非常令人惊奇的论文。

Some results from this long cohort study where they show that up to 30 minutes in the sauna was healthy, and you lower your risk of cardiovascular disease.

这项长期队列研究的一些结果表明，蒸桑拿长达 30 分钟是健康的，并且可以降低患心血管疾病的风险。

And that's like the threshold.

这就像门槛。

And if you go further than that, then there is not more healthy benefits to gain from that.

如果你走得更远，那么就不会从中获得更多的健康益处。

And before that, it's like 90 minutes, then you will have this dose response relationship up to 90 minutes that's really decreasing your risk of cardiovascular diseases.

在此之前，大约 90 分钟，然后您将拥有长达 90 分钟的剂量反应关系，这确实会降低您患心血管疾病的风险。

SUSANNA SØBERG: 90 minutes per session now.

SUSANNA SØBERG：现在每节课 90 分钟。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

Per session.

每个会话。

If we then compare that with my study, which was 10 to 15 minutes per session, then I think it fits very well with what we call the hermetic stress or healthy stress that you expose the cells to this kind of like potent, very stressful situation, where they increase heat shock proteins in the cells.

如果我们将其与我的研究（每次 10 到 15 分钟）进行比较，那么我认为它非常适合我们所说的封闭压力或健康压力，即你将细胞暴露在这种强有力的、非常有压力的情况下，它们会增加细胞中的热休克蛋白。

And that will repair the cells.

这将修复细胞。

But if you then overdo it and you go beyond the maybe 30 minutes in the sauna, this observational study from Finland with more than up to 2,000 sauna bathers where they followed these for 20 years, they see that 30 minutes per session is like enough.

但如果你做得过度，桑拿时间超过了 30 分钟，这项来自芬兰的观察性研究对超过 2,000 名桑拿浴者进行了 20 年的跟踪，他们发现每次 30 分钟就足够了。

And if you go above that, you don't get more health benefits out of it.

如果你超过这个标准，你就不会从中获得更多的健康益处。

So, I think there's a window where we can say the healthy stress corresponds to 10 minutes.

所以，我认为有一个窗口，我们可以说健康压力相当于 10 分钟。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Per session.

SUSANNA SØBERG： 每场会议。

And it's not much actually.

实际上并不多。

So, it shows that you don't have to expose yourself very much to the heat or very much actually to the cold to get this healthy benefits from going into cold, going to heat, and have healthy benefits on your cardiovascular system.

因此，它表明，您不必让自己过多地暴露在炎热或寒冷的环境中，就能从寒冷、炎热中获得健康益处，并对心血管系统产生健康益处。

So, I think this is very important also message to get out that you don't have to go extreme.

所以，我认为这也是非常重要的信息，让我们知道你不必走极端。

You don't have to swim for half an hour in the cold water.

你不必在冷水中游半个小时。

You can go in the water for 1 to 2 minutes per session but go up to 11 minutes per week in total.

每次可以在水中呆 1 到 2 分钟，但每周总共最多 11 分钟。

And for the sauna, my study showed 57 minutes in total per week.

对于桑拿，我的研究显示每周总共 57 分钟。

And if we also then divide it out on these two to three days and two sessions each day, corresponds to 10 to 15 minutes.

如果我们也将其分为两到三天，每天两次，则相当于 10 到 15 分钟。

So, it's a low threshold, but I think it's good to have that too.

所以，它的门槛很低，但我认为拥有它也很好。

Maybe we can aim for that if people need to have something to aim for.

如果人们需要有目标的话，也许我们可以以此为目标。

And I think it's really good to have that because then you don't overdo it.

我认为拥有它真的很好，因为这样你就不会做得太过分。

And if you overdo it, you exhaust the cells.

如果过度，就会耗尽细胞。

And that will increase your risk of cardiovascular disease also.

这也会增加您患心血管疾病的风险。

But I'm sensing a different answer now, which is if I understand correctly, the threshold is 11 minutes total per week of deliberate cold exposure divided into two or three sessions of maybe 1 to 3 minutes, depending on how long somebody stays in.

但我现在感觉到了一个不同的答案，如果我理解正确的话，阈值是每周总共 11 分钟的故意寒冷暴露，分为两到三个疗程，可能为 1 到 3 分钟，具体取决于某人待在里面的时间长短。

And then 57 minutes.

然后是57分钟。

I want to be careful not to round up to an hour but divide it into maybe three 20-minute sessions or so.

我想注意不要四舍五入到一个小时，而是将其分成三个 20 分钟左右的课程。

So, one doesn't have to be perfect as long as you get beyond that threshold.

因此，只要你超越了这一门槛，就不必是完美的。

But I wonder something, which is it the case that if somebody said, oh, you know I'm just going to do one 11-minute session per week.

但我想知道一件事，如果有人说，哦，你知道我每周只会进行一次 11 分钟的训练。

That might actually not be as beneficial as dividing it up because what you told us earlier is that the hermetic response depends on having that cold shock.

这实际上可能不如将其分开那么有益，因为您之前告诉我们的是，密封反应取决于冷休克。

You actually don't want to become too cold-adapted.

你实际上不想变得太冷漠。

I mean, once the blood pressure response drops down, so in minute 4, 5, and 6, you're getting very cold, and you're shivering.

我的意思是，一旦血压反应下降，在第 4 分钟、第 5 分钟和第 6 分钟，你就会变得非常冷，并且会发抖。

But one is not getting the autonomic stimulus that they want.

但人们并没有得到他们想要的自主刺激。

I guess I could liken this to if exercise worked in a way where it was only the first few minutes of exercise that really triggered the adaptation.

我想我可以把这比作运动是否有效，只有运动的前几分钟才真正触发了适应。

Of course, this is not how it works.

当然，事情并不是这样的。

But in fact, probably quite the opposite.

但事实上，可能恰恰相反。

But if that were the case, then it's not simply the total amount of exercise but dividing up the sessions into little bouts where every single time it acts as a stimulus.

但如果是这样的话，那么这不仅仅是运动总量，而是将训练分成小回合，每次都起到刺激作用。

That seems to be the key here.

这似乎是关键。

This is very important because having watched the landscape of this on social media but also in books and generally-- I think you're the first person to really touch on this, that the goal is not to get so cold-adapted that you can sit in for the full 11 minutes in one session, where the goal isn't to be able to do an hour of very hot sauna.

这一点非常重要，因为你在社交媒体上、书本上以及一般情况下都看过这方面的情况——我认为你是第一个真正接触到这一点的人，目标不是让你适应寒冷，以至于你可以在一次训练中坐上整整 11 分钟，而目标不是能够洗一个小时的高温桑拿。

If you want to, I suppose people could do it for other reasons.

如果你愿意，我想人们可以出于其他原因这样做。

But if the goal is to improve these health metrics, then the idea is to keep the stimulus a stimulus.

但如果目标是改善这些健康指标，那么我们的想法就是让刺激保持刺激。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Short.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 简短。

Exactly.

确切地。

Yeah.

是的。

That's very important.

这非常重要。

Were there any other observations that you made that did not make it into the paper or that were kind of in the margin notes in terms of psychological benefits or anything of that sort?

您是否还有其他未在论文中发表的观察结果，或者在页边注释中提到的心理益处或类似内容？

There was this recent study on soldiers that talked about weight loss as sort of a controversial study for a lot of reasons.

最近一项针对士兵的研究将减肥视为一项有争议的研究，原因有很多。

But one of the things they remarked in the paper was that there were a lot of psychological changes.

但他们在论文中评论的一件事是，心理发生了很多变化。

Improved buffering against anxiety.

改善对焦虑的缓冲。

The men and women in that study reported one of the significant effects was significantly improved sexual satisfaction.

该研究中的男性和女性报告说，其中一项显着影响是性满意度显着提高。

They didn't tell us what that meant for these subjects.

他们没有告诉我们这对这些科目意味着什么。

So, we won't go there.

所以，我们不会去那里。

But a number of subjective improvements.

但主观上有一些改进。

Was there anything that you observed or took note of in your study that perhaps didn't make the main abstract but that we should be aware of?

您在研究中观察到或注意到的是否有任何可能没有构成主要摘要但我们应该注意的事情？

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

There were some.

有一些。

And today, I regret that I didn't measure on sleep, for example.

例如，今天，我很遗憾没有测量睡眠。

I frankly didn't really think about that when I designed the study.

坦率地说，当我设计这项研究时，我并没有真正考虑到这一点。

So, we were very much occupied with the metabolism and kind of had the thought maybe this could impact sleep quality.

因此，我们非常关注新陈代谢，并认为这可能会影响睡眠质量。

And I wish I had the thought that why don't you just ask them in a questionnaire?

我希望我有这样的想法：为什么不在调查问卷中询问他们呢？

But I ask them every morning-- or every morning, it was not many mornings.

但我每天早上都会问他们——或者说每天早上，这样的早晨并不多。

Just two mornings actually we measured on.

实际上我们只测量了两个早上。

But the winter swimmers told us before I wrote them that they had a really good sleep quality.

但在我写信之前，冬泳运动员告诉我们，他们的睡眠质量非常好。

The control group also had that.

对照组也有这样的情况。

But they told me on the day where we measured the brown fat on a day and a night.

但他们告诉我，那天我们测量了一天一夜的棕色脂肪。

So, for actually two days and two nights.

所以，实际上是两天两夜。

They told me that they had a good night's sleep, but they also woke up.

他们告诉我，他们睡了一个好觉，但他们也醒了。

So, it's just telling me that they also had a quick wake-up, and then they fell asleep again.

所以，这只是告诉我他们也很快醒来，然后又睡着了。

And the winter swimmers, they have a really good sleep.

而冬泳运动员，他们的睡眠质量非常好。

So, it's like in general, they also say we sleep very well.

所以，总的来说，他们也说我们睡得很好。

I sleep very well.

我睡得很好。

So, it's anecdotally general corresponds to what I heard in my study.

因此，这与我在研究中听到的内容大致相符。

But nothing that I measured on, which could be fun to do in the future, but we didn't measure on sleep quality.

但我没有测量任何东西，这在未来可能会很有趣，但我们没有测量睡眠质量。

That would have been a really good idea to do.

这确实是个好主意。

They also told me that they were very comfortable when they were cold.

他们还告诉我，冷的时候他们很舒服。

They don't mind, winter swimmers, they don't mind going out, for example, in the cold with a t-shirt.

他们不介意，冬泳者，他们不介意外出，例如在寒冷的天气里穿着T恤。

They were also less scared of showing their skin.

他们也不太害怕暴露自己的皮肤。

That was also one observation.

这也是一项观察。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

They were just so comfortable in the lab.

他们在实验室里感到非常舒服。

As you just mentioned before, coats on, and everybody's running around.

正如你刚才提到的，穿上外套，每个人都跑来跑去。

It was very busy.

非常忙碌。

And all the other scientists out in the hallway.

所有其他科学家都在走廊里。

And also, my supervisor had her office down the hallway.

而且，我的主管的办公室就在走廊上。

And one of the winter swimmers one day just got out of bed after had been in the study for 8 hours.

有一天，一名冬泳运动员在书房待了 8 个小时后刚刚起床。

It was a long day, right?

这是漫长的一天，对吧？

He jumped out of the bed and had his clothes in the bathroom, and he went out completely naked.

他从床上跳起来，把衣服放到浴室里，然后就赤身裸体地出去了。

He didn't care.

他不在乎。

He just went out.

他刚出去。

It was like, oh.

就像，哦。

In fact, my laboratory before moving to Stanford was in San Diego at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies.

事实上，在搬到斯坦福大学之前，我的实验室位于圣地亚哥的索尔克生物研究所。

Beautiful building.

美丽的建筑。

Incredible science is done there.

令人难以置信的科学在那里完成。

The beach right below that is called Black's Beach.

正下方的海滩称为布莱克海滩。

And it's a known nude beach.

这是一个著名的裸体海滩。

And so, whenever tourists were heading down the stairway there, I would sort of let them know, especially if they had kids, I'd let them know.

因此，每当游客走下那里的楼梯时，我都会让他们知道，特别是如果他们有孩子，我会让他们知道。

And it's a nude beach of a particular genre.

这是一个特定类型的裸体海滩。

So, I'd give them a little Warning about what they could expect down below.

因此，我会给他们一些关于他们在下面可能发生的事情的警告。

In any event, those beaches are quite rare in the United States maybe compared to Europe, I don't know.

无论如何，这些海滩在美国可能与欧洲相比相当罕见，我不知道。

So, is there anything special about clothed versus clothed exposure?

那么，穿衣服暴露与穿衣服暴露相比有什么特别之处吗？

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

I think in that sense, we are a bit more free with this kind of like-- but remember, we also had this winter swimming culture for hundreds of years in Denmark.

我认为从这个意义上说，我们对这种喜欢更自由一些——但请记住，我们在丹麦也有数百年的冬泳文化。

And the oldest winter swimming clubs that we have, especially the one we have in Copenhagen where did my next study, which we haven't talked about, and it's also not published yet.

我们拥有最古老的冬泳俱乐部，尤其是我们在哥本哈根的冬泳俱乐部，我在那里进行了下一项研究，我们还没有讨论过，也还没有发表。

But in that winter swimming club, it's the oldest one we have, and it's huge.

但在那个冬泳俱乐部里，它是我们最古老的一个，而且很大。

And they swim naked at this facility.

他们在这个设施里裸泳。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Men and women.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 男人和女人。

And they have sauna where they can go in together.

他们还有桑拿房，可以一起去。

And they also have separate saunas.

他们还有独立的桑拿浴室。

But it's very much a Danish thing.

但这在很大程度上是丹麦的事情。

And I think I think it's good if people want that.

我认为如果人们愿意的话那就很好。

And I had it in my book because people want to know if they have to swim with their bathing suit on, or if they can take it off, or what's the difference.

我把它写在我的书中，因为人们想知道他们是否必须穿着泳衣游泳，或者是否可以脱掉泳衣，或者有什么区别。

Is there any difference in this?

这有什么区别吗？

And if you ask me, there is no difference.

如果你问我，没有什么区别。

If you have your little skinny bikini on, it's not going to do any difference to your cold exposure or your adaptation.

如果您穿着紧身比基尼，它不会对您的寒冷暴露或适应能力产生任何影响。

It's not going to do any difference for your benefits, of course.

当然，这不会对您的利益产生任何影响。

But I think that it has something else.

但我认为它还有别的东西。

It has something to do with how you also observe yourself, how you observe your surroundings.

这与你如何观察自己、如何观察周围环境有关。

And there's some sense of freedom in skinny dipping.

裸泳有一定的自由感。

So, I think people in Denmark who does this is they do the winter swimming because they feel free when they do it.

所以，我认为丹麦人这样做是因为他们进行冬泳，因为他们这样做时感到自由。

They come home from work.

他们下班回家。

They go to this club, and they skinny dip, and they feel like in touch with nature.

他们去这个俱乐部，裸泳，感觉就像与大自然接触。

And they have maybe done this their whole life.

他们也许一生都在这样做。

So, this is an old tradition in Denmark in some of the clubs.

所以，这是丹麦一些俱乐部的古老传统。

But the newer clubs that are coming, they don't skinny dip.

但即将到来的新俱乐部，他们并没有瘦身。

So, everyone has bathing suits.

所以，每个人都有泳衣。

I never skinny dip because there are people around.

我从不裸泳，因为周围都有人。

People with phones and taking pictures all the time.

人们一直拿着手机并拍照。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

And also, this old tradition is also fading away because of that.

而且，这个古老的传统也因此而消失。

And then the other banya is Spa 88, which is on Wall Street in New York, is an amazing banya as well.

另外一家巴尼亚是位于纽约华尔街的Spa 88，也是一家很棒的巴尼亚。

And these are starting to crop up in different cities.

这些已经开始在不同的城市出现。

Or maybe they've been there for a long time, and as deliberate cold exposure and sauna gets more popular, more people are using them.

或者也许它们已经存在很长时间了，随着刻意的寒冷暴露和桑拿变得越来越流行，越来越多的人正在使用它们。

The one in New York, that Spa 88 is always closed.

纽约那家 Spa 88 总是关门的。

And it's interesting because people hear naked or skinny dipping, and they might get certain ideas in mind.

这很有趣，因为人们听到裸体或裸泳，他们可能会想到某些想法。

All these places are very well lit, and they all have a tone of health.

所有这些地方都光线很好，而且都有一种健康的基调。

It's about the kind of health and wellness.

这是关于健康和保健的类型。

I guess the point being that there's no requirement to do one thing or the other.

我想重点是没有要求做一件事或另一件事。

Although in the studies that you did obviously, people were clothed.

尽管在你所做的研究中，人们显然是穿着衣服的。

But I did I did pay attention to those pages in your book.

但我确实注意到了你书中的那些页面。

I thought it was interesting that you put some dedicated passages in your book related to this.

我认为您在书中放置了一些与此相关的专门段落很有趣。

SUSANNA SØBERG: My publisher wanted that.

SUSANNA SØBERG： 我的出版商希望如此。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

It was not me.

那不是我。

It was like my publisher really wanted to have a little discussion about that.

就好像我的出版商真的想对此进行一些讨论。

So, I was like, OK.

所以，我想，好吧。

And I just I want to cue that point because there are so many things that are happening right now in biomedical research and medicine.

我只是想指出这一点，因为生物医学研究和医学领域目前正在发生很多事情。

Serious, quality, peer-reviewed studies published in excellent journals like your paper on things like deliberate cold exposure, sauna, the use of particular supplements.

严肃的、高质量的、经过同行评审的研究发表在优秀的期刊上，比如你关于故意寒冷暴露、桑拿、使用特定补充剂等问题的论文。

Natural herbs and supplements.

天然草药和补充剂。

I mean, there's an entire branch of the National Institutes of Health in the United States dedicated just to the study of supplements and behavioral interventions for health, like meditation and breathwork.

我的意思是，美国国立卫生研究院有一个完整的分支机构专门致力于研究健康补充剂和行为干预措施，例如冥想和呼吸。

Really incredible.

真是不可思议。

It's really incredible.

实在是太不可思议了。

And psychedelics, of course, being something that for a long time was part of a certain community and feel and now is being frankly adopted by mainstream medicine, even pharma.

当然，迷幻药长期以来一直是某个社区和感觉的一部分，现在正被主流医学甚至制药业坦率地采用。

So, the times are changing.

所以，时代在变。

And so yes.

所以是的。

I think it's important to know that it's perfectly acceptable and encouraged to wear clothing.

我认为重要的是要知道穿衣服是完全可以接受和鼓励的。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Absolutely absolutely.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 绝对绝对。

Yeah.

是的。

And one other thing that I wanted to mention going back to your questions around if there were any observations in the studies which we really maybe haven't discussed yet, and maybe it's in the back of the paper and not mentioned that much was one of the winter swimmers didn't have any brown fat when we measured him.

我想提到的另一件事是，回到你的问题，研究中是否有任何我们可能还没有讨论过的观察结果，也许它在论文的后面，但没有提到，当我们测量一名冬泳运动员时，他没有任何棕色脂肪。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Zero.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 零。

And we do see this in previous studies as well that some humans don't have any brown fat.

我们在之前的研究中也确实看到，有些人没有任何棕色脂肪。

SUSANNA SØBERG: No. He wasn't.

SUSANNA SØBERG： 不，他不是。

No. He was not obese because he would not have been in the study then.

不。他并不肥胖，因为当时他不会参加这项研究。

SUSANNA SØBERG: No, no. But what I did observe before I knew that he didn't have any brown fat was that during the cooling experiment where I cooled him for 2 hours before they go into the PET CT scanner, he was not able to control his shivering like the winter swimmers could.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 不，不。但在我知道他没有任何棕色脂肪之前，我确实观察到，在冷却实验中，在他们进入 PET CT 扫描仪之前我给他冷却了 2 个小时，他无法像冬泳运动员那样控制自己的颤抖。

So, he got he got very cold very easily compared to the others.

所以，与其他人相比，他很容易感冒。

And I didn't know what was different about him.

而且我不知道他有什么不同。

But all or me and the three others were working on the experiment, we were like, OK, what's going on because we turned down the temperature.

但我和其他三个人都在做实验，我们想，好吧，发生了什么事，因为我们调低了温度。

But he started like shivering and then we had to turn it up again.

但他开始发抖，然后我们不得不再次把音量调大。

And it was just all over the place.

而且它到处都是。

The temperature is not, it wasn't that controlled like the others.

温度不是，它不像其他的那样受到控制。

It was pretty similar protocol.

这是非常相似的协议。

I could just do pretty much the same because they're the same size and also same gender.

我可以做几乎相同的事情，因为它们的大小相同，性别也相同。

So, it was easier to foresee what was going to happen and when will they start shivering.

因此，更容易预见将会发生什么以及他们什么时候会开始发抖。

I quickly learned that.

我很快就了解到了这一点。

But with this subject, with this volunteer, it was just very much different.

但对于这个主题，对于这个志愿者，情况就非常不同了。

And then when we scanned him and didn't find any brown fat, I didn't even think about it.

然后当我们扫描他并没有发现任何棕色脂肪时，我什至没有想到这一点。

So, when we scanned him and we didn't see anything, I told the PET CT people, like, oh, you put up the wrong scanning.

所以，当我们对他进行扫描时，我们没有看到任何东西，我告诉 PET CT 人员，就像，哦，你进行了错误的扫描。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

The technology.

技术。

It was like this scanning look like the thermoneutral day, the thermocomfortable day where we also scanned them to see if they have any brown fat.

就好像这次扫描看起来像热中性日，热舒适日，我们还对它们进行了扫描，看看它们是否有任何棕色脂肪。

So, you have made a mistake I was pretty sure.

所以，我很确定你犯了一个错误。

And the reanalysis analyzed this scanning, and they just concluded, well, the scanning was fine.

重新分析分析了这次扫描，他们得出的结论是，扫描没问题。

The experiment went well.

实验进行得很顺利。

It was just that he didn't have any brown fat.

只是他没有棕色脂肪。

So, he was like what we just in the paper called a brown fat negative.

所以，他就像我们刚刚在论文中所说的棕色脂肪阴性者。

So, he didn't have any.

所以，他什么都没有。

And in my studies, it would be called a knockout.

在我的研究中，这被称为淘汰赛。

So, he didn't have any brown fat.

所以，他没有任何棕色脂肪。

So, what the observation with him and I think that's interesting is that he both shivered very early on and didn't regulate his temperature as well.

所以，我认为对他的观察很有趣的是，他很早就开始发抖，而且也没有调节体温。

He also told me that then he was like a 5 on the scale of how comfortable he felt with the cold.

他还告诉我，当时他对寒冷的感觉就像是 5 分。

SUSANNA SØBERG: So, it was from 1 to 10, and 5 being thermocomfortable, and 10 being very cold, and 1 very hot.

SUSANNA SØBERG：所以，从 1 到 10，5 表示热舒适，10 表示非常冷，1 表示非常热。

So, on this like scale up and down.

所以，在这方面就像放大和缩小。

And he was like more up and down on this scale than any of the others.

在这个尺度上，他比其他任何人都更加上下。

It was an observation that I did.

这是我的观察。

But we did see in his blood samples also that his blood samples looked a bit more like the control group.

但我们确实在他的血液样本中看到，他的血液样本看起来更像对照组。

And also, his insulin levels were like the control group.

而且，他的胰岛素水平与对照组相似。

So, a little bit higher than the other winter swimmers.

所以，比其他冬泳运动员要高一点。

And his blood glucose clearance was not as fast as the other winter swimmers.

而且他的血糖清除速度也不如其他冬泳运动员。

So, he was like an outlier what we call it.

所以，他就像我们所说的异类。

And in the analysis, we also had to take him out of the analysis because he was an outlier.

在分析中，我们也不得不将他排除在分析之外，因为他是一个异常值。

So, the results showing that the brown fat is more efficiently activated in the winter swimmers is without having him in that group.

因此，研究结果表明，冬泳运动员的棕色脂肪被更有效地激活，而冬泳运动员并不属于该组。

But it didn't ruin the study if I tried to put him in as well, and it didn't ruin the results or anything.

但如果我试图把他也放进去，并不会破坏这项研究，也不会破坏结果或任何东西。

But just to keep it more clear, we took him out of the analysis.

但为了更清楚地说明这一点，我们将他排除在分析之外。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Or you haven't adapted to the cold.

SUSANNA SØBERG： 或者你还没有适应寒冷。

So, you should build that up.

所以，你应该建立它。

Yeah.

是的。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

So, we looked at inflammation.

因此，我们研究了炎症。

Of course, we measure the outcome of blood pressure and so on.

当然，我们测量血压等结果。

But we also measured the IL-6 in this study, just to see also inflammatory and inflammatory markers.

但我们在这项研究中还测量了 IL-6，只是为了观察炎症和炎症标志物。

So, IL-6 went up, and it also follows with the IL-10.

因此，IL-6 上升，IL-10 也随之上升。

So that is like also very known in the literature.

这在文献中也是众所周知的。

So, we measured that and I think it's very important to think about the cold exposure and the heat exposure as something that then lowers the inflammation in the body.

因此，我们对此进行了测量，我认为将冷暴露和热暴露视为降低体内炎症的方法非常重要。

And if we can do that, we will have an open door for preventing lifestyle diseases, right?

如果我们能做到这一点，我们就为预防生活方式疾病敞开了大门，对吗？

So, for type 2 diabetes but actually also for some mental diseases as well.

因此，对于 2 型糖尿病，实际上也适用于某些精神疾病。

So as known as depression and anxiety and also Alzheimer's disease, which are all associated in research, also newer research showing that inflammation increases the risk of depression, anxiety, and Alzheimer's disease, neurological diseases.

因此，所谓的抑郁症和焦虑症以及阿尔茨海默病，这些都与研究有关，而且最新的研究表明，炎症会增加患抑郁症、焦虑症和阿尔茨海默病等神经系统疾病的风险。

So, if we can decrease inflammation in the body, we will decrease our modern lifestyle diseases, but also these increasing mental diseases that we see in these modern lifestyle times.

因此，如果我们能够减少体内的炎症，我们就能减少现代生活方式疾病，同时也减少我们在现代生活方式时代看到的日益增加的精神疾病。

So, I think it's very interesting that we can go out in nature, and we can use these natural stressors.

所以，我认为我们可以到大自然中去，我们可以利用这些自然压力源，这是非常有趣的。

And I don't want to have it sound very romantic or anything.

我不想让它听起来很浪漫什么的。

It's just exposure to temperature actually, just to cold or to heat, that is going to trick our body into a natural state again and reset it where the homeostasis, the balance is lost a bit.

实际上，只要暴露在温度下，无论是冷还是热，就会让我们的身体再次进入自然状态，并在体内平衡、平衡稍微失去的地方重置它。

So, the body is going to repair itself in that way.

所以，身体会以这种方式自我修复。

And I think it's beautiful that we can do that just by changing the temperature of our body.

我认为我们只需改变身体的温度就能做到这一点，这真是太好了。

And although people are very scared of doing this because in our times, we have been away from cold, away from heat temperature for decades now since we isolated our houses better, and we are more sedentary.

尽管人们非常害怕这样做，因为在我们这个时代，自从我们更好地隔离我们的房子以来，我们已经远离寒冷、远离高温几十年了，而且我们更加久坐。

We also sit more indoor.

我们也更多地坐在室内。

We don't move as much.

我们没有那么频繁地移动。

So, this very modern sedentary lifestyle has made us more temperature comfortable or just neutral.

因此，这种非常现代的久坐生活方式使我们的温度变得更加舒适或只是中性。

So, no wonder, I mean, that obesity is increasing.

所以，我的意思是，肥胖人数不断增加也就不足为奇了。

We don't expose ourselves to the natural stresses that we did earlier on in our environment but up until maybe the 70s the 60s, where we started having more like comfortable lifestyles, right?

我们不会像早期那样将自己暴露在自然压力下，但直到 70 年代和 60 年代，我们开始拥有更舒适的生活方式，对吗？

And obesity increases in the 80s.

八十年代肥胖症有所增加。

We can see that from statistics.

我们可以从统计数据中看到这一点。

So, I think that if we can take in cold and heat, and you mentioned other things also before.

所以，我认为如果我们能够吸收冷和热，你之前也提到过其他事情。

But of course, exercise is very important here.

但当然，锻炼在这里非常重要。

And also, a bit of fasting actually because it all increases the hermetic stress in the body.

而且，实际上禁食一点，因为这都会增加体内的密封压力。

So, it doesn't have to be other than natural stresses to the body, which then could keep us in that natural balance again.

因此，它不一定是对身体的自然压力，这可以使我们再次保持自然平衡。

And the Søberg principle says end on cold, as I understand it, in order to force your body to heat itself back up and thereby increase metabolism further still.

据我所知，索伯格原则说的是停止寒冷，以迫使你的身体重新加热，从而进一步提高新陈代谢。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yes.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

So, when you end on the cold, you force your body to heat up by itself.

所以，当你结束寒冷时，你会强迫你的身体自行升温。

And that will require that you keep your brown fat activated and also your muscles, which is a good thing.

这需要你保持棕色脂肪和肌肉的活性，这是一件好事。

It's a good collaboration to keep your thermogenesis up.

这是一个很好的合作，可以保持你的生热作用。

And that's like an exercise, even when you go home.

这就像一次练习，即使你回家了也是如此。

So, in that way, you don't have to think about your cold exposure or dipping in your plunge or open sea or what it is as just an exercise that you do for 1 to 2 minutes, and then it's over.

因此，这样一来，您就不必考虑暴露在寒冷中或浸入水中或公海中，或者只是进行 1 到 2 分钟的锻炼，然后就结束了。

If you end on the cold, you have an exercise for your body going on for hours afterwards.

如果你因感冒而结束，那么接下来的几个小时你都会对身体进行锻炼。

And that's not only on your metabolism, but it's also going to keep your neurotransmitters activated as well and increase that because your body is still cold.

这不仅会影响你的新陈代谢，还会使你的神经递质保持激活状态，并会因为你的身体仍然寒冷而增加激活状态。

So, you need those neurotransmitters to activate the brown fat as well.

因此，您还需要这些神经递质来激活棕色脂肪。

So that's going to make your brown fat cells more efficient and also your muscle cells more efficient.

因此，这将使您的棕色脂肪细胞和肌肉细胞更加高效。

So increasing mitochondria in the cells, which will then generate heat very fast.

因此增加细胞中的线粒体，然后它会非常快地产生热量。

So, if you have done this for a few times, so maybe three, four, or five times, being new to this but have tried it a few times, you will notice a switch where you like feel that you get easily warmer, and you can keep yourself warmer.

所以，如果你已经这样做了几次，也许三、四或五次，虽然是新手，但已经尝试过几次，你会注意到一个转变，你喜欢感觉自己很容易变得温暖，并且可以让自己保持温暖。

And that is also what was shown in my study, is that the winter swimmers were physically warmer on the skin compared to the control group.

我的研究也表明，与对照组相比，冬泳者的皮肤温度更高。

SUSANNA SØBERG: When they are out of the cold.

SUSANNA SØBERG：当他们不再寒冷时。

Just relaxing.

只是放松。

And we tested this in on the days where they were sleeping in the lab.

我们在他们在实验室睡觉的时候对此进行了测试。

So, we could see that they had a more activation of the brown fat, higher temperature.

所以，我们可以看到它们的棕色脂肪活化程度更高，温度更高。

So probably because they also lose heat, they have a higher heat loss to the body compared to the control group because they have a more vascular skin because of the contrast of cold and heat.

因此，可能是因为它们也会失去热量，与对照组相比，它们对身体的热量损失更高，因为由于冷热对比，它们的皮肤血管更多。

So, they lose heat faster from the body during the day but is that a bad thing.

因此，它们在白天更快地从体内散失热量，但这是一件坏事。

No. Probably not because that's going to keep your brown fat and your muscles a little bit activated.

不会。可能不会，因为这会让你的棕色脂肪和肌肉保持一点活跃。

So, it has to work to keep you warm.

所以，它必须能够让你保持温暖。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yes.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

Basically, it sounds like what we want is to be a very efficient heating and cooling system.

基本上，听起来我们想要的是一个非常高效的加热和冷却系统。

That it's not about being cold or being hot.

这与冷或热无关。

It's really about keeping the system tuned well.

这实际上是为了保持系统的良好调整。

Keeping the oil in the candle, this brown fat, functioning.

让蜡烛中的油（这种棕色脂肪）发挥作用。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Away from the cold.

SUSANNA SØBERG：远离寒冷。

Yeah.

是的。

But I also tested glucose on the days on the cold.

但我也在寒冷的日子里测试了血糖。

So, we measured that as well on the cooling days.

因此，我们也在凉爽的日子里进行了测量。

Specifically, on fasting and fat, I don't know.

具体来说，关于禁食和脂肪，我不知道。

I don't think that I have seen studies specifically on this.

我认为我没有看到专门针对此的研究。

So, she left to go to the bathroom and warm up her hands in the warm water.

于是，她起身去卫生间，用温水暖手。

And I was left standing there at the dance.

舞会上我就站在那里。

And people came up to me and asked you why I was there and who I was there with.

人们走过来问我为什么在那里以及我和谁在那里。

And I kept telling them who I was with.

我一直告诉他们我和谁在一起。

And they didn't believe me because they couldn't believe that she would be with me.

他们不相信我，因为他们不相信她会和我在一起。

It made total sense if you knew me at the time.

如果你当时认识我的话，这是完全有道理的。

I was way out of my league with her at the time.

那时我和她格格不入。

I like to think eventually, I caught up.

我喜欢想，最终我赶上了。

But in any case, she was in the bathroom for about an hour.

但无论如何，她在浴室里呆了大约一个小时。

So, at one point, I did consider the possibility that she had just left.

所以，有一次，我确实考虑过她刚刚离开的可能性。

But indeed, she hadn't.

但事实上，她没有。

She warmed her hands back up.

她又暖了暖手。

But people with Raynaud's suffer from this thing of very, very cold extremities.

但患有雷诺氏症的人会遭受四肢非常非常寒冷的困扰。

Their fingertips will even turn blue as if they were starting to get frostbitten.

他们的指尖甚至会变成蓝色，就像开始冻伤一样。

It's quite dramatic.

这是相当戏剧性的。

And that question gets asked whether or not there's any use of cold to try and increase the elasticity, the plasticity of the small capillaries and vessels.

有人问这个问题是否可以使用冷来尝试增加小毛细血管和血管的弹性和可塑性。

But everything you've described up until now, it seems like that would be a logical thing to do.

但到目前为止您所描述的一切似乎都是合乎逻辑的。

And in addition to that, whether or not people with autoimmune, conditions people with any other types of conditions are known to benefit from deliberate cold exposure.

除此之外，无论是否患有自身免疫性疾病，患有任何其他类型疾病的人都会从故意的寒冷暴露中受益。

I'm not aware of any studies, but I get asked about this a lot, and there were a lot of questions about this for you in the Twitter feed.

我不知道有任何研究，但我经常被问到这个问题，并且 Twitter 上也有很多关于这个问题的问题。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

Thank you for those questions, and I get them as well on social media.

感谢您提出这些问题，我也在社交媒体上得到了这些问题。

And I have to say that I haven't seen any studies directed on this outcome in measuring Raynaud's syndrome.

我不得不说，我还没有看到任何针对测量雷诺综合症结果的研究。

I do know that it's not that rare actually a problem.

我确实知道这实际上并不是一个罕见的问题。

And I know that many women or more women than men suffer from this.

我知道很多女性或者比男性更多的女性都患有这种疾病。

But logically, it would help them if they exposed their hands to cold and also heat to make the vessel more vascular.

但从逻辑上讲，如果他们将手暴露在寒冷和高温下以使血管血管更加丰富，这会对他们有所帮助。

And I have heard from people saying that it had helped them but also hurt for some others saying it didn't help them.

我听人们说这对他们有帮助，但也伤害了其他一些人，说这对他们没有帮助。

So, studies are needed on this specific topic, I think.

因此，我认为需要对这个特定主题进行研究。

I hurt my hands when I go into the cold, and I don't have this syndrome at all.

我一入冷手就受伤了，我根本就没有这个综合症。

But I keep my hands above the water.

但我的手保持在水面之上。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

And I do that.

我就是这样做的。

Often, I take a little bit of a swim.

我经常游一会儿泳。

And then of course, I have to have my hands in the water.

当然，我必须把手伸进水里。

But it helps me when I then get back to the jetty and then take my hands up because then I can stand there for a little bit and get my 1 to 2 minutes exposure.

但当我回到码头并举起双手时，这对我很有帮助，因为这样我就可以在那里站一会儿，进行 1 到 2 分钟的曝光。

And then I can go up because then otherwise, that would stop me from being in the water enough time as long as I would like to.

然后我就可以上去，否则的话，我就无法在水中待足够长的时间。

So, if people suffer from having this pain in the fingers, and it can be very intense.

因此，如果人们的手指出现这种疼痛，而且疼痛可能会非常剧烈。

So just take the hands up a bit from the water.

因此，只需将手从水中稍微抬起一点即可。

And that's going to help you.

这会对你有所帮助。

Also boots, neoprene boots.

还有靴子，氯丁橡胶靴子。

It's going to help on the feet.

这会对脚有帮助。

Some people feel the pain in the feet and in the ankles.

有些人感到脚和脚踝疼痛。

And that's going to help them also a little bit.

这也会对他们有一点帮助。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

Because you do get the exposure.

因为你确实得到了曝光。

But of course, hands and feet are very potent places in your body to get a fast activation of your nervous system, of course.

当然，手和脚是您身体中非常有效的地方，可以快速激活您的神经系统。

But you can also just dip them and then take them off.

但您也可以将它们浸入水中然后将其取下。

It's still going to activate that.

它仍然会激活它。

But your full body is covered in the cold receptors.

但你的全身都被冷感受器覆盖。

You have a full activation anyways.

无论如何，您已经完全激活了。

Although these days, I've been dunking all the way in and then coming out and then dunking once more with my head under before I get out after the plunge.

虽然这些天我一直在扣篮，然后出来，然后再低头扣篮，然后在跳水后出来。

That raises a different question.

这就提出了一个不同的问题。

Now we're getting into the practicalities of deliberate cold exposure, which I think are important.

现在我们正在讨论故意暴露在寒冷环境中的实用性，我认为这很重要。

Sometimes, I'll experience, and I hear from a lot of people that they'll get a kind of back of the head headache at the interface of the water when they're in doing cold immersion to the neck.

有时，我会经历，而且我听很多人说，当他们对颈部进行冷浸时，他们会在水的界面处感到后脑勺头痛。

I assume this has to do with blood flow, that there's vasoconstriction right up until the neck and in the region surrounding it, but that maybe there's still blood flow to the head.

我认为这与血流有关，直到颈部及其周围区域都有血管收缩，但也许仍然有血液流向头部。

But do we know what the origin of these headaches is?

但我们知道这些头痛的根源是什么吗？

And again, this doesn't happen for everybody, but some people do experience them.

再说一次，这种情况并不是每个人都会发生，但有些人确实经历过。

SUSANNA SØBERG: OK.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 好的。

Yeah.

是的。

I haven't really heard about that one specifically.

我还没有具体听说过这个。

But I would say that there are different reasons for maybe keeping your head out of the water, but it seems like maybe for some, that could be a reason for like just getting like a quick head dunk to--

但我想说的是，可能有不同的原因让你的头露出水面，但似乎对某些人来说，这可能是一个像快速将头浸入水中的原因——

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

Well, it comes from different reasons.

嗯，它来自不同的原因。

So, let's talk about some of the physiological reasons.

那么，我们来谈谈一些生理原因。

So, when you submerge in cold water up to the neck, studies have shown, and this is from Denmark studies from Bispebjerg Hospital that when you submerge into cold water up to the neck at 0 degrees, so 0 degrees Celsius, very cold, you have a decreased blood flow to the brain by around 30% to 40%.

因此，研究表明，当你浸入到颈部的冷水中时，这是来自丹麦 Bispebjerg 医院的研究表明，当你浸入 0 度（即 0 摄氏度，非常冷）的冷水中时，流向大脑的血流量会减少约 30% 至 40%。

And makes sense because you activate the sympathetic nervous system.

这是有道理的，因为你激活了交感神经系统。

And therefore, you will have a less blood flow to the brain.

因此，流向大脑的血液将会减少。

Makes you maybe a little bit dizzier.

让你可能有点头晕。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

Well, the muscles and your vital organs need to-- you have to be able to run away from that tiger, right?

嗯，肌肉和你的重要器官需要——你必须能够逃离那只老虎，对吗？

SUSANNA SØBERG: But yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 但是是的。

So, one of the reasons being that you should keep your head out of the water is that you could decrease in blood flow to the brain further if you dunked the head.

因此，您应该将头保持在水面之外的原因之一是，如果您将头浸入水中，流向大脑的血液可能会进一步减少。

So, there's this very nice paper from a research group in Canada, where they have collectively looked at different papers where they compared heat loss in a group in the papers where they dunked the head and compared it to heat loss submerging up to the neck to see how much extra heat do we lose from our core when we dunk the head.

加拿大的一个研究小组发表了一篇非常好的论文，他们集体研究了不同的论文，比较了论文中一组人将头部浸入水中的热量损失，并将其与淹没到颈部的热量损失进行比较，看看当我们将头部浸入水中时，我们的核心会损失多少额外的热量。

And I think it's very interesting that if you submerge up to the neck, you have a heat loss of 11% from the body core.

我认为非常有趣的是，如果你淹没到颈部，你的身体核心就会损失 11% 的热量。

And when you then also dunk the head, you increase that heat loss rate by 36%.

当你将头部也浸入水中时，热量损失率会增加 36%。

I'm not here to say what is right and what is wrong.

我来这里并不是要说什么是对的，什么是错的。

I just think that people should know the information, so they can for themselves evaluate what is best for them.

我只是认为人们应该了解这些信息，这样他们就可以自己评估什么对他们来说是最好的。

But if you increase your heat loss rate by 36% from your core, that's going to increase your afterdrop, which we touched upon a little bit earlier, even further.

但如果你将你的核心热量损失率增加 36%，这就会增加你的余热损失，我们之前提到过，甚至会进一步增加。

So that's meaning that you are closer to hypothermia than you are if you just submerge up to the neck.

所以这意味着你比仅仅淹没到颈部的情况更接近体温过低的情况。

So, you should really think about whether this is like something that you want to do or if it's just better for you not to get that cold in your core.

所以，你应该认真考虑一下这是否是你想做的事情，或者是否对你来说不要让你的内心变得那么冷漠更好。

The beanie is also because I have a little bit of sensitive ears.

戴无檐小便帽也是因为我的耳朵有点敏感。

So, meaning that if there's wind, and because we swim in the open sea in Denmark, we have a lot of wind.

所以，这意味着如果有风，并且因为我们在丹麦的公海游泳，所以风很大。

Our conditions are just very rainy, very windy.

我们的情况就是雨很大，风很大。

And when the temperature is also freezing, you could get this-- what is that called?

当温度也很冷时，你会得到这个——那叫什么？

So very cold and lightheaded just from wind.

非常冷，光是风就让人头晕。

So, if you also submerge into cold water and you then get up, you would get a brain freeze immediately.

所以，如果你也浸入冷水中然后再站起来，你的大脑会立即冻结。

So, it is enough to just go up to the neck wear a beanie to just not get dizzy also because the heat loss is increased of course, but also, the blood flow to the brain has decreased.

因此，戴一顶无檐小便帽就足够了，这样就不会头晕，因为热量流失当然会增加，而且流向大脑的血液也会减少。

So, the beanie will keep you a little bit warmer, so you can stay for 1 to 2 minutes.

因此，无檐小便帽会让您保持温暖，这样您就可以停留 1 到 2 分钟。

So, it's just a way of getting around some of the conditions also.

因此，这也只是解决某些条件的一种方法。

So, people can choose that if they feel that, but it's quite normal to do in Scandinavia, wear a beanie.

所以，如果人们有这种感觉，可以选择戴无檐小便帽，但在斯堪的纳维亚半岛，戴无檐小便帽是很正常的。

Along the lines of covering the head, there's this seemingly paradoxical thing of people going into hot saunas and wearing wool caps.

沿着遮盖头部的路线，人们进入热桑拿浴室并戴着羊毛帽，这似乎是自相矛盾的事情。

If you go to a banya or you go to a sauna, and there are people who are, well, from Eastern Europe typically, or Finland, or Russia, or Ukraine, or elsewhere.

如果你去桑拿浴室，或者去桑拿浴室，那里的人通常来自东欧，或者芬兰，或者俄罗斯，或者乌克兰，或者其他地方。

What you'll see is that many of them are wearing wool caps in the sauna, which many people think is to make it hotter, but it's actually not the case.

你会看到很多人在桑拿房里都戴着羊毛帽，很多人认为这是为了让温度更热，但事实并非如此。

It actually insulates you from the heat environment.

它实际上使您与热环境隔离。

The sense of urgency to get out of the hot sauna is a brain-driven mechanism.

摆脱热桑拿的紧迫感是一种大脑驱动的机制。

And so, the reason that people wear wool hats in the sauna is it actually lets you stay in the sauna longer because it takes a lot of heat to the skin before you feel that you, quote unquote, have to get out.

因此，人们在桑拿浴室戴羊毛帽子的原因是，它实际上可以让您在桑拿浴室中停留更长时间，因为在您感觉必须离开之前，皮肤需要大量热量。

Whereas so when you insulate the brain, you don't get that signal.

然而，当你隔离大脑时，你就不会收到该信号。

It's pretty interesting.

这很有趣。

I've tried this before just by putting a towel over my head in the sauna, and you can stay in there much more easily and for much longer.

我以前曾尝试过，只需在桑拿浴室中将毛巾放在头上，您就可以更轻松地呆在那里，并且呆得更久。

As we talk about these different stimuli for the hermetic response, the adaptation to stress, it occurs to me that the big ones in our evolutionary history have been light.

当我们谈论这些不同的刺激来实现封闭反应、适应压力时，我突然想到，我们进化史上最重要的刺激是光。

I mean, you were talking about seasonal changes.

我的意思是，你在谈论季节变化。

We know, especially as you go up to Nordic countries, there are seasonal changes in the amount of light by time of year.

我们知道，尤其是当您前往北欧国家时，一年中不同时间的光量会发生季节性变化。

Dramatic ones, in fact.

事实上，戏剧性的。

Less so at the equator, of course.

当然，在赤道则不然。

Light, temperature, food, movement.

光、温度、食物、运动。

And it's sort of interesting.

这很有趣。

And at the same time, perhaps it should have been obvious to us that there are stimuli that our bodies have evolved to adapt to in very powerful ways.

与此同时，也许我们应该很清楚，我们的身体已经进化到能够以非常强大的方式适应某些刺激。

And so, the idea that temperature, heat and cold, could evoke these tremendous physiological changes that are beneficial for us probably shouldn't surprise us at all.

因此，温度、热和冷能够引起这些对我们有益的巨大生理变化的想法可能根本不应该让我们感到惊讶。

I mean, these are not esoteric mechanisms.

我的意思是，这些并不是深奥的机制。

They're actually the foundational mechanisms by which our body and the bodies of other animals adapt.

它们实际上是我们的身体和其他动物的身体适应的基本机制。

So, I do have a question about the different ways that people could approach deliberate cold exposure.

所以，我确实有一个问题，关于人们可以采取哪些不同的方式来应对故意的寒冷暴露。

So, for instance, children.

比如说，孩子们。

I've been to banyas where there are kids 6 or 7 years old with their parents at the banya.

我去过桑拿浴室，那里有六七岁的孩子和他们的父母一起在桑拿浴室。

And so, they're in hot sauna.

所以，他们在热桑拿里。

I'm not suggesting people do this if they're not adapted to it.

如果人们不适应的话，我并不是建议他们这样做。

And talk to your parents, kids.

并与你的父母、孩子交谈。

And talk to your kids, parents.

并与您的孩子、父母交谈。

Talk to your doctors.

和你的医生谈谈。

But it is remarkable.

但这是了不起的。

I mean, children doing sauna from a young age or deliberate cold exposure.

我的意思是，孩子们从小就洗桑拿或故意暴露在寒冷中。

Are there any data on this, and is it safe assuming that, obviously, that they can swim or they're doing this in a tub or shower?

是否有这方面的任何数据？显然，假设他们可以游泳或者他们在浴缸或淋浴中游泳是否安全？

And then I'd also like to ask you about are there any additional male-female differences?

然后我还想问一下，男女之间是否还有其他差异？

I know your study focused on men.

我知道你的研究重点是男性。

But other studies have focused on both.

但其他研究也集中在这两方面。

And you, of course, are a woman and can attest to your own experience with this.

当然，你是一名女性，可以证明你自己的经历。

So, children, men, women, differences there in terms of protocols?

那么，儿童、男性、女性在协议方面存在差异吗？

Is there anything that people should build into the structure of their deliberate cold exposure that's unique to that?

人们应该在故意寒冷暴露的结构中建立一些独特的东西吗？

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

So, this was on cold exposure.

所以，这是在冷暴露下。

So yeah.

所以是的。

I think that starting with the question about children.

我认为首先要从关于孩子的问题开始。

I think that it's important to think about as children are smaller than adults, so we cannot really completely transfer all the information and the benefits and also protocols for how long and stuff like that to children.

我认为考虑这一点很重要，因为儿童比成人小，所以我们不能真正完全将所有信息和好处以及持续时间和类似内容的协议转移给儿童。

We cannot do that because they are just smaller in mass.

我们不能这样做，因为它们的质量较小。

And one study that actually proves this is a study where they have compared heat loss in children, boys who were 12 years old, compared to adults, men, and looked at heat loss of the core temperature.

一项研究实际上证明了这一点，他们将儿童、12 岁男孩的热量损失与成人、男性进行了比较，并观察了核心温度的热量损失。

And exposed them to a 1- or 2-minutes cold exposure.

并将它们置于冷环境中 1 或 2 分钟。

So, immersion up to the neck.

所以，浸没到颈部。

And what they saw was that the boys in this study could actually defend their core temperature in the same way as the adults could, but they had to use their muscles way faster.

他们发现，这项研究中的男孩实际上可以像成年人一样保护自己的核心体温，但他们必须更快地使用肌肉。

So, it means that they couldn't stay for as long, and they use more energy to defend their core temperature compared to the adults.

因此，这意味着它们不能停留那么长时间，并且与成年人相比，它们需要使用更多的能量来维持核心温度。

But for 1 minute, it seems that they could actually, but they will be colder when they then come out because they are smaller in their mass to their ratio, right?

但是一分钟，看起来它们实际上可以，但是当它们出来时它们会更冷，因为它们的质量比它们的比例更小，对吗？

So, it means that if the surface is so large on children and their mass and muscles being smaller to that ratio, it means that they can be in the water less time before they get hypothermic.

因此，这意味着，如果儿童的水面如此之大，而他们的质量和肌肉小于该比例，则意味着他们在体温过低之前可以在水中停留的时间较短。

So just think about that.

所以想想吧。

They are just smaller.

它们只是更小。

They can't defend their temperature for a very long time.

他们无法长时间保持体温。

But in this study, they saw that for up to, I think it was a minute or so.

但在这项研究中，他们发现这一时间长达一分钟左右。

SUSANNA SØBERG: 1 minute.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 1 分钟。

Yeah.

是的。

And he got hypothermic.

他体温过低。

And he's an excellent swimmer.

他是一位出色的游泳运动员。

And he didn't report feeling overly cold.

他也没有报告感觉太冷。

But fortunately, we got him to shore and heated him up again.

但幸运的是，我们把他救到岸上并再次给他加热。

So, he lived.

所以，他活了下来。

I don't think his mother is going to ever let him go swimming with us again.

我认为他妈妈不会再让他和我们一起去游泳了。

He's thriving in the world.

他在这个世界上蓬勃发展。

He's a university student now.

他现在是一名大学生。

And he recalls that swim.

他还记得那次游泳。

I mean, this is why you always want to ocean swim with a buddy, with people.

我的意思是，这就是为什么你总是想和朋友、和人们一起去海洋游泳。

Yeah.

是的。

He became hypothermic.

他变得体温过低。

His teeth turned yellow.

他的牙齿变黄了。

He was slurring his words.

他言语含糊不清。

He wasn't making sense.

他没有讲道理。

We got him on to shore, and he was kind of drooling and a little bit semi-euphoric.

我们把他救上岸，他有点流口水，有点欣喜若狂。

Hypothermia is no joke.

体温过低可不是开玩笑。

SUSANNA SØBERG: It's no joke.

SUSANNA SØBERG： 这不是玩笑。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah, exactly.

SUSANNA SØBERG： 是的，完全正确。

And drowning.

和溺水。

Yeah.

是的。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

And we also just talked about the difference in temperature in men and women.

而且我们刚才也谈到了男女的体温差异。

So, it means that if we replicated my study in women, it could be that they would have enough, you can say, cold exposure with just 9 minutes per week.

因此，这意味着，如果我们在女性身上重复我的研究，她们可能每周只需 9 分钟就可以接受足够的冷暴露。

It could be because they apparently are also just colder, and they have increased metabolism, and their brown fat is just they have more brown fat.

这可能是因为他们显然也只是更冷，而且他们的新陈代谢增加了，他们的棕色脂肪只是他们有更多的棕色脂肪。

It could be, but this is just something that I frankly don't know.

可能是这样，但这只是我坦率地不知道的事情。

But women also do cold exposure, winter swimming with the 11 minutes protocol.

但女性也可以进行寒冷暴露、按照 11 分钟方案进行冬泳。

I do it myself and feel good about it.

我自己做并且感觉很好。

So, I would say that women, also regarding activation of the brown fat, it should be the same in theory.

所以，我想说，女性，对于棕色脂肪的激活，理论上应该是一样的。

But I don't know if women actually do need to have another protocol when it comes to this rapid cold exposure.

但我不知道女性在面对这种快速的寒冷暴露时是否真的需要采取另一种方案。

I think that it's another question if we are talking about ice swimming when it comes to how far can you be in the cold water without getting hypothermic.

我认为，如果我们谈论冰泳，当谈到你能在冷水中呆多远而不会体温过低时，这是另一个问题。

Then there will be differences in men and female.

那么男性和女性就会有差异。

But if you do this cold exposure for a very brief amount of time, which is what I try to talk about, what we call also microstressing the body to increase the hermetic stress, the healthy stress.

但是，如果你在很短的时间内进行这种寒冷暴露，这就是我试图谈论的，我们也称之为对身体施加微压力，以增加密封压力，即健康压力。

Then this is such a short amount of exposure that it's fairly the same.

那么曝光量如此之短，就相当相同了。

I think women can look at this as a fairly good protocol for them as well.

我认为女性也可以将这视为对她们来说相当好的协议。

For people that are perfectly comfortable in the cold, it's harder to get an adaptation response.

对于在寒冷中完全舒适的人来说，很难获得适应反应。

The same way that if somebody is very strong and they can lift a very heavy weight, that that very heavy weight is unlikely to evoke the same kind of or same degree of adaptive responses if somebody is not quite as strong.

同样，如果一个人非常强壮并且可以举起非常重的重量，那么如果某人不那么强壮，那么这个非常重的重量就不太可能引起相同类型或相同程度的适应性反应。

So, another reason to keep these exposures relatively short and more frequent than to do longer duration exposures frequently.

因此，与经常进行较长时间的暴露相比，保持这些暴露相对较短和更频繁的另一个原因是。

However, let's say somebody only had two days a week to do deliberate cold exposure.

然而，假设有人每周只有两天的时间进行故意的寒冷暴露。

Maybe they don't have access to a sauna.

也许他们无法使用桑拿浴室。

Maybe they do.

也许他们会。

Would you suggest that they get in for 1 or 2 minutes, then get out, then get back in for another couple of minutes, then get out, and call that for 4.5 minutes to try and get to that 11 minutes total per week, as opposed to getting in for a full 5 minutes, and then getting out, and coming back a second time that week?

您是否会建议他们进入 1 或 2 分钟，然后退出，然后再回来几分钟，然后退出，并调用 4.5 分钟，以尝试达到每周总计 11 分钟，而不是进入整整 5 分钟，然后退出，然后该周第二次回来？

I know this is getting down into the weeds, but these are the sorts of things that I think people really want to know because a lot of people either don't live close to a body of water or don't have a cold plunge that they can do this with, although cold shower apparently works too.

我知道这已经深入人心，但我认为人们真正想知道的是这些事情，因为很多人要么住得离水不近，要么没有可以做到这一点的冷水浴，尽管冷水淋浴显然也有用。

So, most people live close to a shower.

所以，大多数人住在靠近淋浴的地方。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

Definitely.

确实。

I think the changes in temperature is what is strengthening your cells in the body.

我认为温度的变化可以增强体内的细胞。

So, if you can do the short amount of exposure and then get out and get back in, that is going to, you can say, strengthen your cells because you are challenging them to adapt to changing temperatures.

因此，如果你能进行短时间的暴露，然后出去再回来，你可以说，这会增强你的细胞，因为你正在挑战它们适应不断变化的温度。

So, during one session, you can change this, right?

那么，在一次会话期间，您可以更改此设置，对吧？

You can do it if you are able to go to cold water but also a sauna.

如果您可以喝冷水，但也可以洗桑拿，那么您就可以做到这一点。

Then you just do that automatically, and you will have a change in temperature.

然后你会自动执行此操作，温度就会发生变化。

But you could also do it while variating the temperature.

但你也可以在改变温度的同时进行。

In your cold plunge if you have a plunge, or if you have an open sea, or you have seasons even.

在你的寒冷潜水中，如果你有潜水，或者如果你有一个公海，或者你甚至有季节。

We have that in Denmark.

我们在丹麦就有这样的设施。

So, we have four seasons.

所以，我们有四个季节。

And the temperature is going to vary with that.

温度也会随之变化。

So, we have nature who can just change this for us, and we don't have to think about it.

所以，我们的大自然可以为我们改变这一点，而我们不需要考虑它。

But if you have a cold plunge, well, then I would say that changing the temperature is what is going to create this hermetic stress and also keep your cells on its toes, you can say, because right the body will still be stressed to try to adapt to the new temperature as it's seen as something actually toxic to the body, right?

但是，如果你经历了一次寒冷的暴跌，那么我想说，改变温度会产生这种密封压力，并使你的细胞保持警惕，你可以说，因为身体仍然会承受压力，试图适应新的温度，因为它被视为对身体实际上有毒的东西，对吗？

It's a small piece of toxicity that you are exposing yourself to.

这是你让自己接触到的一小部分毒性。

You don't have to swallow it, but it's enough that you touch it actually.

你不必吞下它，但实际触摸它就足够了。

So, I could imagine that doing deliberate cold exposure at different times just by way of convenience or by way of intention could be very beneficial because my body temperature is going to be quite a bit warmer at one time of day versus another.

因此，我可以想象，出于方便或有意的目的，在不同时间故意进行冷暴露可能会非常有益，因为我的体温在一天中的某个时间会比其他时间要高一些。

And in that way, keeping the system tuned.

通过这种方式，保持系统的调整。

And that's really what I keep hearing coming through as you explain these data and all these beautiful studies, yours and others, is that it's not really about getting cold.

当你解释这些数据和所有这些精彩的研究（你的和其他人的）时，我一直听到的确实是，这并不是真的与感冒有关。

It's about going from warm to cold and from cold to warm.

这是从温暖到寒冷，从寒冷到温暖的过程。

And I love this idea because I probably said this 100 times on my podcast and a million times in my life, and I'll continue to, which is that biology is not an event.

我喜欢这个想法，因为我可能在我的播客上说过这句话 100 次，在我的一生中说过一百万次，而且我会继续这样说，那就是生物学不是一个事件。

It's a process.

这是一个过程。

Like these metabolic and thermoregulatory processes are indeed like the turning of a knob.

就像这些代谢和体温调节过程确实就像转动旋钮一样。

It's a verb as opposed to a noun.

它是一个动词，而不是一个名词。

And so, I think if people can internalize that idea, that they're going to have a lot more flexibility, a lot more fun, and get a lot more benefit as opposed to thinking, OK, I need to get into x degrees of water for x amount of time on x number of days in a very rigid way.

所以，我认为，如果人们能够内化这个想法，他们就会有更多的灵活性，更多的乐趣，并获得更多的好处，而不是想，好吧，我需要以一种非常严格的方式在 x 天的 x 时间里进入 x 度的水。

SUSANNA SØBERG: I get this question all the time.

SUSANNA SØBERG： 我一直收到这个问题。

How much and how cold?

多少度和有多冷？

And I mean, it's just like, well, because we also don't have studies showing exactly if you just keep 5 degrees in your water and you do that for a month, then what happens?

我的意思是，这就像，好吧，因为我们也没有研究确切地表明，如果你把水保持在 5 度，并保持一个月，那么会发生什么？

Maybe in the future, we will know much more about this, and I'm sure it's going to come, and I really hope so.

也许将来我们会对此了解更多，我确信它会到来，我真的希望如此。

But I just think by logically changing that temperature up and down, up and down, and you also do that in your water, it's not that important what temperature you will have your water then.

但我只是认为，通过逻辑地上下改变温度，并且你也在你的水中这样做，那么你的水的温度并不那么重要。

They'll just keep changing, going up and down.

他们只会不断变化，上下波动。

It could be all up to 12 degrees Celsius.

气温可能高达 12 摄氏度。

You're going to activate your brown fat anyways.

无论如何，你都会激活你的棕色脂肪。

I mean, 12, 19 degrees cold air is enough to activate your brown fat.

我的意思是，12、19 度的冷空气足以激活你的棕色脂肪。

So maybe we don't have to go as cold as I think many people think and putting ice even all the time.

所以也许我们不需要像很多人想象的那样冷，甚至不需要一直加冰。

You don't have to.

你不必这样做。

I don't think it's necessary to expose yourself to that cold temperature all the time but vary it a bit.

我认为没有必要一直将自己暴露在寒冷的温度下，但可以稍微改变一下。

SUSANNA SØBERG: Yeah.

苏珊娜·索伯格： 是的。

So, we haven't analyzed all the data yet, and I know from the study that we did publish that we would need to look more at the data.

因此，我们还没有分析所有数据，而且我从我们确实发布的研究中知道，我们需要更多地查看数据。

So, I don't really have any results yet that I can share because we are still in very preliminary analysis of this.

所以，我还没有任何可以分享的结果，因为我们仍在对此进行非常初步的分析。

So, I wouldn't know yet what to exactly say about it.

所以，我还不知道该怎么说。

But what we looked at was both men and women.

但我们看到的是男性和女性。

So that's coming.

所以这就来了。

Because frankly, there just haven't been that many high resolution detailed modern studies of this.

因为坦率地说，对此还没有那么多高分辨率详细的现代研究。

There have been studies of sauna.

已有人对桑拿进行了研究。

There have been some studies of cold.

已经有一些关于寒冷的研究。

There are a lot of groups in physiology that work on hypothermia and very cold exposure.

生理学中有很多研究小组致力于研究低温和极冷环境。

But most of the temperatures used in those days just aren't practical.

但当时使用的大多数温度都是不切实际的。

So first of all, I just want to thank you for viewing the work that you've done and for the work that you continue to do.

首先，我想感谢您查看您已经完成的工作以及您继续所做的工作。

I'm waiting with bated breath as I say to hear the results of this study that's ongoing on both men and women.

我正在屏息以待，等待听到这项针对男性和女性正在进行的研究的结果。

So, we'll have to have you back to inform us about that soon.

因此，我们需要您尽快回来通知我们此事。

And I want to thank you for the incredible public education efforts that you've been doing on social media with respect to your book.

我要感谢您在社交媒体上为您的书所做的令人难以置信的公共教育工作。

And we, of course, will put links to all of those things in the show note captions, so people can learn from you and can continue to learn from you.

当然，我们会在节目注释标题中放置所有这些内容的链接，以便人们可以向您学习，并可以继续向您学习。

We certainly need more scientists who are both experienced with doing hard core research, as it's called, and who also do the practices.

我们当然需要更多的科学家，他们既要有进行硬核研究的经验，又要进行实践。

I think that's a wonderful additional asset.

我认为这是一项很棒的额外资产。

You're not just behind a lab coat or bundled up in a down feather jacket as everyone else is getting into the cold.

当其他人都在寒冷中时，您不仅仅穿着实验室外套或裹在羽绒服中。

You do these things.

你做这些事。

And that you are so open and generous in the way that you share knowledge, which includes coming here today to share knowledge with me and our audience.

你们分享知识的方式是如此开放和慷慨，包括今天来到这里与我和我们的观众分享知识。

So, thank you ever so much.

所以，非常感谢你。

SUSANNA SØBERG: You're very welcome.

SUSANNA SØBERG： 非常不客气。

I am so pleased to be here.

我很高兴来到这里。

And thank you so much for inviting me.

非常感谢你邀请我。

And I could explain my study, and I can share some of my insights from doing that.

我可以解释我的研究，并且可以分享我的一些见解。

So, I'm very grateful for being here.

所以，我非常感谢来到这里。

Thank you for joining me for today's discussion all about deliberate cold and deliberate heat exposure science and protocols with Dr. Susanna Søberg.

感谢您今天与 Susanna Søberg 博士一起参与有关故意冷和故意热暴露科学和协议的讨论。

If you'd like to learn more about Dr. Søberg's research or you would like to learn about the research of her institute, the Søberg Institute, please see the links in the show note caption.

如果您想了解有关 Søberg 博士的研究的更多信息，或者您想了解她的研究所（Søberg Institute）的研究，请参阅节目注释标题中的链接。

Also, in the show note caption, you can find a link to Dr. Søberg's excellent book, "Winter Swimming." If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.

此外，在节目注释标题中，您还可以找到 Søberg 博士的优秀著作《冬泳》的链接。如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。

That's a terrific zero cost way to support us.

这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。

In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on Spotify and Apple.

此外，请订阅 Spotify 和 Apple 上的播客。

And in addition, on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.

此外，在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们留下五星级的评价。

If you have questions for me or topics, you'd like me to cover on the Huberman Lab podcast or guests that you'd like me to consider inviting on the Huberman Lab podcast, please put that in the comments on YouTube.

如果您对我有疑问或有话题，希望我在 Huberman Lab 播客上进行报道，或者您希望我考虑邀请嘉宾参加 Huberman Lab 播客，请在 YouTube 上发表评论。

I do read all the comments.

我确实阅读了所有评论。

In addition, please check out the sponsors mentioned that beginning and throughout today's episode.

此外，请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。

That's the best way to support this podcast.

这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。

Not so much on today's episode, but on various previous episodes of the Huberman Lab podcast, we discuss supplements.

今天的节目不多，但在 Huberman 实验室播客的前几集中，我们讨论了补充剂。

While supplements aren't necessary for everybody, many people derive tremendous benefit from them for things like enhancing sleep, focus, and hormone support.

虽然补充剂并不是每个人都需要的，但许多人从它们中获得了巨大的好处，例如增强睡眠、注意力和激素支持。

The Huberman Lab podcast is proud to have partnered with Momentous Supplements.

Huberman Lab 播客很荣幸与 Momentous Supplements 合作。

If you'd like to hear more about the supplements discussed on the Huberman Lab podcast, please go to livemomentous, spelled ous, dot com slash Huberman.

如果您想了解有关 Huberman Lab 播客上讨论的补充剂的更多信息，请访问 livemomentous、spelled ous、.comlash Huberman。

Again, that's livemomentous.com/huberman.

再说一遍，这是 livemomentous.com/huberman。

If you're not already following the Huberman Lab podcast on social media, we are hubermanlab on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn.

如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注 Huberman Lab 播客，请关注我们在 Instagram、Twitter、Facebook 和 LinkedIn 上的 hubermanlab。

And on all those places, I focus on material that somewhat overlaps with content from the Huberman Lab podcast but often is distinct from the content covered on the Huberman Lab podcast.

在所有这些地方，我关注的材料与 Huberman Lab 播客的内容有些重叠，但通常与 Huberman Lab 播客中涵盖的内容不同。

So again, it's hubermanlab on all social media channels.

再说一次，所有社交媒体渠道上都是 hubermanlab。

For those of you that haven't already subscribed to our so-called Neural Network newsletter, this is a completely zero cost monthly newsletter that has summaries of podcast episodes and so-called toolkits.

对于那些还没有订阅我们所谓的神经网络时事通讯的人来说，这是一份完全零成本的每月时事通讯，其中包含播客剧集和所谓的工具包的摘要。

Toolkits are lists of about a page to two pages long that give the critical tools, for instance, for optimizing sleep, or for neuroplasticity, or deliberate cold exposure, or deliberate heat exposure, or optimizing dopamine.

工具包是大约一页到两页长的列表，提供了关键工具，例如，用于优化睡眠、或神经可塑性、或有意冷暴露、或有意热暴露、或优化多巴胺。

Again, all available to you at zero cost.

同样，所有这些都可以零成本提供给您。

You simply go to hubermanlab.com.

您只需访问 hubermanlab.com 即可。

Go to the Menu tab in the corner.

转到角落的“菜单”选项卡。

Scroll down to Newsletter.

向下滚动到新闻通讯。

You provide us your email.

您向我们提供您的电子邮件。

We do not share your email with anybody.

我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。

And in addition to that, there are samples of toolkits on the hubermanlab.com website, again, under Newsletter.

除此之外，hubermanlab.com 网站上的新闻通讯下也有工具包示例。

And you don't even have to sign up to access those.

您甚至无需注册即可访问这些内容。

But I think most people do end up signing up for the newsletter because it's rich with useful information and again, completely zero cost.

但我认为大多数人最终都会订阅时事通讯，因为它充满了有用的信息，而且完全是零成本。

Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Susanna Søberg.

再次感谢您参加今天与 Susanna Søberg 博士的讨论。

And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。