Dr. Stuart McGill: Build a Strong, Pain-Proof Back
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. Stuart McGill.
今天我的客人是斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士。
Dr. Stuart McGill is a distinguished professor of spine biomechanics at the University of Waterloo.
Stuart McGill 博士是滑铁卢大学脊柱生物力学的杰出教授。
As a professor for more than three decades, Dr. McGill has analyzed the spines of injured people as well as healthy people and developed methods to treat spine injuries and pain, as well as to improve spine biomechanics in any body.
作为三十多年的教授，麦吉尔博士分析了受伤者和健康人的脊柱，并开发了治疗脊柱损伤和疼痛的方法，以及改善任何身体的脊柱生物力学。
He has authored more than 250 peer-reviewed research articles on these topics, making him a true world expert.
他就这些主题撰写了 250 多篇经过同行评审的研究文章，使他成为真正的世界专家。
During today's episode, we discuss spine anatomy as well as the common sources of back pain, and we discuss some of the controversies as to the origins and different treatments for back pain.
在今天的节目中，我们讨论脊柱解剖学以及背痛的常见来源，并讨论有关背痛的起源和不同治疗方法的一些争议。
As you'll quickly learn, there is no one specific source of back pain, nor is there one specific solution to back pain.
您很快就会了解到，背痛没有一种特定的来源，也没有一种背痛的特定解决方案。
But as Dr. McGill spells out very clearly, there are things that anyone and everyone can do in order to strengthen their back and to reduce the amount of pain they may be experiencing.
但正如麦吉尔博士非常清楚地阐明的那样，任何人和每个人都可以做一些事情来增强他们的背部并减少他们可能经历的疼痛。
He explains some specific ways to self-diagnose your back pain, which of course, is critical for understanding what specific things to do as well as to avoid in dealing with any pain, and as it relates to applying in sport and in everyday life.
他解释了一些自我诊断背痛的具体方法，这当然对于理解在处理任何疼痛时应该做什么以及避免什么具体事情至关重要，因为它与运动和日常生活中的应用有关。
Dr. McGill and I also discuss several of the avid controversies within the field of back pain and the treatments for back pain.
麦吉尔博士和我还讨论了背痛和背痛治疗领域的一些激烈争议。
We talk about the so-called biopsychosocial model of pain, which points to the various sources that pain can arise from.
我们谈论所谓的疼痛生物心理社会模型，它指出了疼痛可能产生的各种来源。
Everything from emotional to lack of sleep, to specific locations in the spine and brain and elsewhere in the body, and the ways those mesh together to give us what we call pain, as well as to direct us towards specific treatments for pain that tend to be especially effective.
从情绪激动到睡眠不足，到脊柱、大脑和身体其他部位的特定位置，以及这些位置结合在一起给我们带来所谓的疼痛的方式，以及指导我们采取特别有效的特定疼痛治疗方法。
Dr. McGill is a true encyclopedia on the topics of back physiology and anatomy, sources of back pain, and treatments for back pain.
麦吉尔博士是一本真正的百科全书，涉及背部生理学和解剖学、背部疼痛的根源以及背部疼痛的治疗方法。
So it's truly a special opportunity to be able to learn from him in such immense detail and in such a clear and actionable way.
因此，能够以如此清晰和可操作的方式向他学习如此详尽的细节，这确实是一个特殊的机会。
By the end of today's episode, you will have a quite thorough understanding about the anatomy and physiology of the back as it relates to a healthy back, to back pain, and of course, you'll have various remedies for dealing with back pain, preventing back pain, and for strengthening your back for all sorts of different kinds of movement, not just for exercise and sport, but also to move through your daily activities pain-free and with ease and mobility at any age.
在今天的节目结束时，您将对背部的解剖学和生理学有一个相当透彻的了解，因为它与健康的背部和背痛有关，当然，您还将有各种治疗方法来处理背痛，预防背痛，并加强您的背部以进行各种不同类型的运动，不仅用于锻炼和运动，而且还可以在任何年龄段轻松无痛地进行日常活动。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。
Our first sponsor is Helix Sleep.
我们的第一个赞助商是 Helix Sleep。
Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep needs.
Helix Sleep 生产根据您独特的睡眠需求定制的床垫和枕头。
Now, I've spoken many times before on this and other podcasts about the fact that getting a great night's sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance.
现在，我之前已经在这个播客和其他播客中多次谈到这样一个事实：睡个好觉是心理健康、身体健康和表现的基础。
Now, one of the keys to getting a great night's sleep is to make sure that your mattress is suited to your unique sleep needs.
现在，获得良好睡眠的关键之一是确保您的床垫适合您独特的睡眠需求。
What does that mean?
这意味着什么？
Well, if you go to the Helix website, you can take a brief two-minute quiz, and it asks you questions such as, do you sleep on your back, your side, or your stomach?
好吧，如果你访问 Helix 网站，你可以做一个两分钟的简短测验，它会问你一些问题，比如你是仰卧、侧卧还是俯卧？
Do you tend to run hot or cold during the night?
你晚上容易感到热还是冷？
Things of that sort.
诸如此类的事情。
Maybe you know the answers to those questions, maybe you don't.
也许您知道这些问题的答案，也许您不知道。
Either way, Helix will match you to the ideal mattress for you.
无论哪种方式，Helix 都会为您匹配理想的床垫。
For me, that turned out to be the Dusk mattress made by Helix.
对我来说，这就是 Helix 制造的 Dusk 床垫。
I started sleeping on a Dusk mattress about three and a half years ago, and it's been far and away the best sleep that I've ever had.
大约三年半前，我开始睡在 Dusk 床垫上，这无疑是我睡过的最好的睡眠。
So if you'd like to sleep better by sleeping on a mattress that's customized to your unique sleep needs, go to helixsleep.com/huberman, take that brief two-minute sleep quiz, and Helix will match you to a mattress that's ideal for you.
因此，如果您想睡在根据您独特的睡眠需求定制的床垫上睡得更好，请访问 helixsleep.com/huberman，参加简短的两分钟睡眠测验，Helix 将为您匹配最适合您的床垫。
Right now, Helix is giving up to 30% off mattresses and two free pillows.
目前，Helix 提供高达 30% 的床垫折扣和两个免费枕头。
Again, that's helixsleep.com/huberman to get 30% off and two free pillows.
再次强调，helixsleep.com/huberman 提供 30% 折扣和两个免费枕头。
Today's episode is also brought to us by BetterHelp.
今天的节目也是由 BetterHelp 为我们带来的。
BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online.
BetterHelp 提供由持证治疗师完全在线进行的专业治疗。
I've been doing weekly therapy for well over 30 years.
三十多年来我每周进行一次治疗。
Initially, I didn't have a choice.
最初，我别无选择。
It was a condition of being allowed to stay in school.
这是被允许留在学校的一个条件。
But pretty soon, I realized that therapy is an extremely important component to overall health.
但很快，我意识到治疗对于整体健康来说是极其重要的组成部分。
There are essentially three things that great therapy provides.
伟大的治疗本质上可以提供三件事。
First of all, great therapy consists of having good rapport with somebody that you can really trust and talk to about the issues that you're dealing with.
首先，良好的治疗包括与您真正信任的人建立良好的融洽关系并谈论您正在处理的问题。
Second of all, that therapist should provide support in the form of emotional support or directed guidance.
其次，治疗师应该以情感支持或定向指导的形式提供支持。
And third, expert therapy should provide useful insights, insights that allow you to better understand not just your emotional life and your relationship life, but of course, also your relationship to yourself and to career goals and school goals, meaning excellent therapy should also inspire positive action.
第三，专家治疗应该提供有用的见解，这些见解不仅可以让您更好地了解您的情感生活和人际关系生活，当然还有您与自己的关系以及与职业目标和学校目标的关系，这意味着优秀的治疗还应该激发积极的行动。
BetterHelp makes it very easy for you to find an expert therapist with whom you really resonate with and that can provide the benefits that I just described.
BetterHelp 让您可以轻松找到与您真正产生共鸣的专家治疗师，并且可以提供我刚才描述的好处。
If you'd like to try BetterHelp, you can go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month.
如果您想尝试 BetterHelp，可以访问 betterhelp.com/huberman，第一个月可享受 10% 的折扣。
Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman.
再说一次，这是 betterhelp.com/huberman。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Waking Up.
今天的节目也是由Wakeing Up为我们带来的。
Waking Up is a meditation app that offers hundreds of guided meditation programs, mindfulness trainings, yoga nidra sessions, and more.
Waking Up 是一款冥想应用程序，提供数百个引导冥想计划、正念训练、瑜伽休息课程等。
I started practicing meditation when I was about 15 years old, and it made a profound impact on my life.
我大约15岁的时候开始练习冥想，它对我的生活产生了深远的影响。
In recent years, I started using the Waking Up app for my meditations because I find it to be a terrific resource for allowing me to really be consistent with my meditation practice.
近年来，我开始使用“Waking Up”应用程序进行冥想，因为我发现它是一个很棒的资源，可以让我真正坚持我的冥想练习。
What I and so many other people love about the Waking Up app is that it has a lot of different meditations to choose from, and those meditations are of different durations.
我和许多其他人喜欢“醒来”应用程序的原因是它有很多不同的冥想可供选择，而且这些冥想的持续时间也不同。
So it makes it very easy to keep up with your meditation practice, both from the perspective of novelty, you never get tired of those meditations.
所以它让你很容易跟上你的冥想练习，无论是从新奇的角度来看，你永远不会厌倦这些冥想。
There's always something new to explore and to learn about yourself.
总有一些新的东西值得探索和了解自己。
And you can always fit meditation into your schedule, even if you only have two or three minutes per day in which to meditate.
即使您每天只有两到三分钟的时间进行冥想，您也可以随时将冥想纳入您的日程安排中。
I also really like doing yoga nidra or what is sometimes called non-sleep deep rest for about 10 or 20 minutes because it is a great way to restore mental and physical vigor without the tiredness that some people experience when they wake up from a conventional nap.
我也非常喜欢做瑜伽放松术，或者有时被称为非睡眠深度休息的大约 10 或 20 分钟，因为这是恢复精神和身体活力的好方法，而且不会像某些人从传统午睡中醒来时所经历的那样感到疲劳。
If you'd like to try the Waking Up app, please go to wakingup.com/huberman, where you can access a free 30-day trial.
如果您想尝试 Waking Up 应用程序，请访问 wakingup.com/huberman，在这里您可以免费试用 30 天。
Again, that's wakingup.com/huberman to access a free 30-day trial.
同样，访问 wakingup.com/huberman 即可获得 30 天免费试用。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Stuart McGill Dr. Stuart McGill, welcome.
现在我将与斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士进行讨论。欢迎斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Thank you, sir.
谢谢您，先生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great to have you here.
很高兴你来到这里。
I'm a big fan of your work.
我非常喜欢你的工作。
I've watched a lot of your other content, read your books, and I'm excited to discuss today what makes for a really strong, resilient back, what causes back pain, and how to relieve it.
我看过你的很多其他内容，读过你的书，我很高兴今天能讨论什么使背部真正强壮、有弹性，什么导致背部疼痛，以及如何缓解背部疼痛。
And perhaps the bigger issue is what all of that allows for in terms of mobility and functionality, not just in sport, but in everyday life.
也许更大的问题是所有这些在移动性和功能性方面所带来的影响，不仅在运动中，而且在日常生活中。
So to kick things off, I'd like to ask a question that I think is on a lot of people's minds.
首先，我想问一个我认为很多人都在想的问题。
Most people aren't thinking about their back unless they have pain.
大多数人不会想到自己的背部，除非他们感到疼痛。
So what causes back pain?
那么是什么原因导致腰痛呢？
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
You start with the easy questions.
你从简单的问题开始。
Let me give context before I define it as tightly as I can for you.
在我尽可能严格地为您定义它之前，让我先给出背景信息。
Back pain is a symptom.
背痛是一种症状。
So let's just change the topic for a moment and talk about leg pain.
那么我们暂时换个话题，谈谈腿痛吧。
Can you imagine asking someone, "Well, could you give me an exercise or a prevention strategy for leg pain?" Okay, so that sets the stage a little bit.
你能想象一下问某人：“那么，你能给我一个练习或预防腿部疼痛的策略吗？”好的，这就奠定了一些基础。
We're talking about a symptom for which there's 100 or more different pathways and mechanisms there.
我们谈论的是一种有 100 种或更多不同途径和机制的症状。
So we've got to have a fairly comprehensive assessment now and understanding to focus on the type of back pain and then matching an appropriate intervention.
因此，我们现在必须进行相当全面的评估，并了解重点关注背痛的类型，然后匹配适当的干预措施。
I was listening to your new podcast with Andy Galpin this morning.
今天早上我正在听安迪·加尔平的新播客。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The Perform Podcast.
表演播客。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
The Perform Podcast, yeah.
表演播客，是的。
And he said, "I'm going to try and follow the three I's." And it was, I think, gather information, interpret the information, and then intervene.
他说：“我会努力遵循三个我的想法。”我认为，它是收集信息，解释信息，然后进行干预。
So it's the same kind of deal here.
所以这里也是同样的交易。
And of course, that's pan medical condition, shall we say.
当然，我们可以说，这是泛医学状况。
So with that context, I'm going to answer it like this.
因此，在这样的背景下，我将这样回答。
What causes back pain?
背痛的原因是什么？
Genetics loads the gun, exposure pulls the trigger, and then the psychosocial milieu around the individual influences how they respond to the pain.
遗传学给枪上膛，暴露扣动扳机，然后个体周围的心理社会环境影响他们对疼痛的反应。
So there's a start.
所以有一个开始。
We can break it down in those three categories if you wish.
如果您愿意，我们可以将其分为这三类。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
So when you say genetics loads the gun, what comes to mind, because it's my experience, is that I have a right shoulder that sits a little bit lower than my left shoulder, unless I'm mindful of that.
因此，当你说基因决定了这一点时，我会想到，因为这是我的经验，我的右肩比左肩略低，除非我注意到这一点。
My dad has the same thing.
我爸爸也有同样的情况。
And I can put an ankle on my other knee a bit more easily on one side versus the other.
与另一侧相比，我可以更轻松地将一侧脚踝放在另一侧膝盖上。
I tend to pronate one foot a little bit more than the other when I run.
当我跑步时，我倾向于一只脚比另一只脚内旋多一些。
These are subtle things.
这些都是微妙的事情。
They don't necessarily result in back pain.
它们不一定会导致背痛。
But I'm guessing that a lot of that is either developmental overuse, particular sport.
但我猜想其中很多要么是发育过度使用，特别是运动。
I'm regular footed.
我是正常脚。
I skateboarded a bunch.
我玩过很多次滑板。
So I push with my right foot.
所以我用右脚推动。
I kick a soccer ball with my right foot, those sorts of things.
我用右脚踢足球之类的。
But let's assume that genetics played some role, created some bias.
但我们假设遗传学发挥了一些作用，产生了一些偏见。
If I were to tell you that, which I just did, would then you immediately think to a particular intervention if I told you, "Okay, I have a little bit of lower right side pain," which I occasionally do.
如果我告诉你这一点，就像我刚才所做的那样，如果我告诉你，“好吧，我右下侧有一点疼痛”，你会立即想到某种特定的干预措施吗？我偶尔会这样做。
I know I've got this imbalance that was loaded by genetics and presumably experience as well.
我知道我的这种不平衡是由遗传和经验造成的。
And would your mind immediately go to a particular origin of that pain, or perhaps even more importantly, a particular remedy to that pain, or do we need to drill a little bit deeper and really understand more about what I do, what I don't do, if I'm more thin set or heavily set at the level of bone structure?
你的思绪是否会立即想到那种疼痛的特定根源，或者更重要的是，一种针对这种疼痛的特殊疗法，或者我们是否需要更深入地研究，真正了解更多关于我做什么、不做什么，如果我在骨骼结构水平上更瘦或更重？
What are some of the other questions one would ask in the investigate category?
在调查类别中人们还会问哪些其他问题？
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
My thought would not go to one or the other, but it would go to both.
我的想法不会转向其中之一，而是会转向两者。
And I'd start that conversation with this analogy.
我会用这个类比来开始谈话。
Let's talk about breeds of dogs.
我们来谈谈狗的品种。
We both love dogs.
我们都喜欢狗。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
If I said to you, we're going to take two dogs and we're going to train them for the greyhound track.
如果我对你说，我们要带两只狗，并训练它们参加灰狗比赛。
One's a greyhound and one's a Saint Bernard.
一个是灰狗，一个是圣伯纳犬。
How do you think you're going to make out the Saint Bernard, no matter how you train it or condition it, will never make it to the performing on a greyhound track.
你认为你如何才能认出圣伯纳犬，无论你如何训练或调节它，都永远无法在灰狗赛场上表演。
You're going to end up with a broken Saint Bernard.
你最终会得到一只破碎的圣伯纳犬。
So there's a little bit of a start from a big perspective.
所以从大的角度来看，这是一个小小的开始。
But now let's drill down and talk about spines.
但现在让我们深入讨论一下脊柱。
It's interesting when you look at the basic anatomical structure of an individual.
当你观察一个人的基本解剖结构时，这很有趣。
We just did that with dogs.
我们刚刚对狗这样做了。
Imagine if I took a thin willow branch.
想象一下，如果我拿一根细柳枝。
I could bend that willow branch back and forth over and over, and it wouldn't accumulate stress.
我可以一遍又一遍地来回弯曲那根柳枝，它不会积累压力。
But if I took that same willow branch and loaded it top to bottom like an I-beam, it would just bend and break.
但如果我把同一根柳树枝像工字梁一样从上到下加载，它就会弯曲和断裂。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
So it supports bending cycles, but it doesn't support compression.
因此它支持弯曲循环，但不支持压缩。
Now I'm going to change that willow branch into a thicker stick, and I bend the stick once, and it shatters.
现在我要把那根柳枝换成一根更粗的棍子，我把棍子一弯，它就碎了。
In other words, the thickness and radial diameter being larger means the stress is bigger in bending.
换句话说，厚度和径向直径越大，意味着弯曲时的应力越大。
However, let's compress the same stick.
但是，让我们压缩同一根棍子。
It can bear tremendous compression.
它可以承受巨大的压力。
So there's a very fast example on spines.
这是一个关于脊柱的非常快速的例子。
There's a fellow who has the world record in consecutive sit-ups, thousands of them.
有一个人保持了连续仰卧起坐的世界纪录，几千个。
Given what I've just said, what's your prediction?
鉴于我刚才所说的，你的预测是什么？
Do you think he has a big, strong fellow with a thick spine, or do you think he's a very slender man with a willowy, thin spine?
你认为他是一个高大强壮、脊椎粗壮的男人，还是你认为他是一个非常苗条、脊椎纤细的男人？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He's a willowy, bendy guy who can just keep bending up and down off the ground.
他是一个身材苗条、身体弯曲的人，可以在地面上不断地上下弯曲。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Bingo.
宾果游戏。
Bingo.
宾果游戏。
He has to be.
他必须是。
There's no option.
没有选择。
So there's a start on the genetics.
所以我们从遗传学开始。
Not everybody can play offensive tackle, and not everybody can be a gymnast, or not everybody can simply tolerate sitting in a chair being a computer operator.
不是每个人都能打进攻截锋，不是每个人都能成为体操运动员，也不是每个人都能忍受坐在椅子上当电脑操作员。
There's a very mundane example for you.
这里有一个非常平凡的例子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could I ask you a question about the willow versus thicker trunk example?
我可以问你一个关于柳树与较粗树干的例子的问题吗？
Can we look to torso thickness or wrist thickness or ankle circumference as a way to assess ourselves as to whether or not we are likely to be more willowy or redwood-like?
我们能否通过躯干厚度、手腕厚度或脚踝周长来评估自己是否可能更苗条或更像红杉？
It should be obvious just by looking at ourselves, knowing ourselves, but for instance, I have a short torso.
只要看看我们自己、了解我们自己就应该很明显，但比如说，我的躯干很短。
I'm thick through the torso front to back.
我的躯干从前到后都很粗。
I always have been since I was a kid.
我从小就是这样。
And my wrist circumference isn't small, but isn't huge.
我的手腕围不算小，但也不算大。
I had a bulldog mastiff, and he would often look at me, and I knew in his mind he was thinking my wrists are really thick compared to yours, Andrew.
我有一只斗牛犬，他经常看着我，我知道他心里认为我的手腕比你的手腕粗，安德鲁。
I knew that's what he was thinking.
我知道他就是这么想的。
He had forearms like a longshoreman.
他的前臂像码头工人一样。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And, of course, he had never done any work whatsoever.
当然，他从来没有做过任何工作。
Actually, a primary goal of the bulldog is to do as little work as possible in life.
实际上，斗牛犬的主要目标是在生活中尽可能少做工作。
But I have friends who have thick knees.
但我有一些膝盖粗的朋友。
Some have smaller joints, smaller ankles.
有些人的关节较小，脚踝较小。
Can we make some general assessment about our spine without imaging it by looking at some of these peripheral markers?
我们是否可以通过查看这些外围标记来对脊柱进行一些一般性评估，而无需对其进行成像？
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Yeah.
是的。
So the knee width, the bi-ilio crystal width, which is the width of your iliac crests, hip width, are all surrogates to indicate general heaviness of the skeleton.
因此，膝盖宽度、双髂骨宽度（即髂嵴宽度）、臀部宽度都是表示骨骼总体重量的替代指标。
So yes, that's one good marker.
所以是的，这是一个很好的标记。
But there's more to the story for genetics and how bendy a spine can be.
但还有更多关于遗传学和脊柱弯曲程度的故事。
The shape of the disc matters.
光盘的形状很重要。
So if you take, on average, a group of top golfers, you'll notice that the disc shape, if we were to cut through, which is a transverse scan on an MRI, the discs are more ovoid.
因此，如果你平均观察一组顶级高尔夫球手，你会注意到，如果我们进行 MRI 横向扫描，椎间盘的形状会更呈卵形。
If you take someone who can bear a lot of compressive load, the discs look more like a lima bean, and that's called a limacon-shaped disc.
如果你拿一个能承受很大压缩载荷的人来说，椎间盘看起来更像利马豆，这就是所谓的利马孔形椎间盘。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And of course, the discs are in repeating fashion throughout the spine, top to bottom.
当然，椎间盘在整个脊柱中从上到下重复出现。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the discs are the soft tissue that allow for mobility of the vertebrae, the bony segments.
椎间盘是允许椎骨（骨节）活动的软组织。
Is that-
难道是——
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
They are the joints.
它们是关节。
But they're not a ball-and-socket joint.
但它们不是球窝接头。
They're actually a fabric of layer upon layer of collagen fibers, and we can talk about that as well.
它们实际上是一层又一层胶原纤维的织物，我们也可以谈论这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What a beautiful adaptation, right?
多么美妙的改编啊，对吧？
Take a bunch of bony-- If you want to be able to bend a bone, you need to break it up into segments, kind of like beads on a necklace.
拿一堆骨头——如果你想弯曲一根骨头，你需要把它分成几段，有点像项链上的珠子。
And then in between those beads, you put some pliable yet I guess a tissue that you can still compress.
然后在这些珠子之间放一些柔韧的但我猜你仍然可以压缩的纸巾。
So it's both pliable, and it can squeeze down and become more narrow in the vertical direction, and it can also squeeze down on one side or the other to some degree.
所以它既是柔韧的，又可以在垂直方向上向下挤压并变得更窄，也可以在一定程度上向一侧或另一侧挤压。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
We evolved discs, and there really is no other better architecture.
我们进化出了光盘，确实没有其他更好的架构了。
People say, "Well, why don't we have ball-and-socket joints in our spine?" And the reason is this.
人们会说：“那么，为什么我们的脊柱上没有球窝关节呢？”原因是这样的。
Can you imagine stacking five oranges, one on top of the other, and then you could make them mobile by putting a ball-and-socket joint in between them?
您能想象将五个橙子堆叠在一起，然后通过在它们之间放置球窝接头来使它们移动吗？
The amount of control that you would need on every single orange.
您需要对每个橙子进行控制的程度。
You move one orange, you have to control all the others.
你移动了一个橙子，你就必须控制所有其他橙子。
It's mission impossible.
这是不可能的任务。
I would do an experiment with students in my lectures.
我会在讲座中与学生一起做一个实验。
I would take four coffee cans and put a tennis ball between each coffee can, and then I would put a rope at the front and the back of each coffee can and then one on the side.
我会拿四个咖啡罐，在每个咖啡罐之间放一个网球，然后在每个咖啡罐的前面和后面放一根绳子，然后在侧面放一根绳子。
And I had four students take those four ropes.
我让四个学生拿那四根绳子。
And then I took another four students who had the ropes on the next coffee can and then on the next coffee can.
然后我又带了四个学生，他们把绳子绑在下一个咖啡罐上，然后又绑在下一个咖啡罐上。
And then I'd say, "Okay, group, flex the spine forward." So the students on the front would pull a little bit, but the guy on top had to pull more than the next coffee can, and then the next coffee can a little bit less.
然后我会说：“好吧，大家一起，向前弯曲脊柱。”所以前面的学生会拉一点点，但上面的人必须比下一个咖啡罐拉得更多，然后下一个咖啡罐拉得少一点。
Vice versa, the people on the other side had to pay out the rope in sequence.
反之亦然，另一边的人必须按顺序放出绳子。
And then I would say, "Okay, now let's twist a little bit." Anyway, you could imagine it was impossible to control.
然后我会说：“好吧，现在让我们稍微扭转一下。”无论如何，你可以想象这是不可能控制的。
And then I took out the tennis balls, and I put in what was a disc, a big, round, cylindrical piece of foam rubber.
然后我拿出网球，放入一个圆盘，一块大的圆形圆柱形泡沫橡胶。
All of a sudden, that added stiffness.
突然之间，这增加了僵硬。
Because the body uses stiffness as the control parameter.
因为身体使用刚度作为控制参数。
Now we've added control in that the foam rubber would create a buffer, and as the deviation in motion occurred, the foam rubber would add more resistance.
现在我们添加了控制，泡沫橡胶会产生缓冲，并且当运动发生偏差时，泡沫橡胶会增加更多阻力。
So it was an automatic control, and that's what a shock absorber does on a car.
所以它是一种自动控制，这就是减震器在汽车上的作用。
It has an elastic element plus the damper, but it's the elastic element, and we're going to talk about stiffness and stability, I hope, that really creates the control.
它有一个弹性元件加上阻尼器，但它是弹性元件，我们将讨论刚度和稳定性，我希望，这真正创造了控制。
So that's why we have evolved discs.
这就是我们进化出光盘的原因。
It's highly efficient.
效率很高。
I can bend the spine to tie my shoe, but if I have to carry home, these days, heavy shopping bags, I need stiffness of that flexible rod so it doesn't collapse.
我可以弯曲脊柱来系鞋带，但如果我现在必须拎着沉重的购物袋回家，我需要那个柔性杆的硬度，这样它就不会塌陷。
Or years ago, I might have been carrying home an animal for dinner, and I needed those discs to provide the stiffness in a very economical way And in a way that didn't create stress concentrations the way ball and socket joints would.
或者几年前，我可能会带一只动物回家吃晚饭，我需要这些圆盘以一种非常经济的方式提供刚度，并且不会像球窝接头那样产生应力集中。
So that's an evolutionary necessity.
所以这是进化的必然。
Also, when we look at spines, there are the column of vertebra with the intervening discs, but behind them, there's two more joints, and those are called facet joints, and they guide motion.
另外，当我们观察脊柱时，有椎骨柱和中间的椎间盘，但在椎骨后面，还有两个关节，这些关节称为小关节，它们引导运动。
Those facet joints have a variety of angles.
这些小面关节具有多种角度。
They can have open angles, which allow you to twist.
它们可以有开放的角度，这样你就可以扭转。
So if you took a group of golfers, could you imagine if they had facet angles like this, you can't twist.
因此，如果你有一群高尔夫球手，你能想象如果他们有这样的小面角度，你就无法扭转。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So facet angles that are too close together, basically.
所以基本上来说，刻面角度太接近了。
It's a small angle.
这是一个小角度。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
If the angle is orientated fore and aft, you can't twist.
如果角度是前后方向的，则无法扭转。
And if you're dealing with a group of professional golfers, you'll find they all have open facet joints.
如果您正在与一群职业高尔夫球手打交道，您会发现他们都有开放的小面关节。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that genetic?
这是遗传吗？
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
It's absolutely 100% genetic.
这绝对是100%遗传的。
Now, interestingly enough, when you arch back, when the facet joints are orientated open as I'm describing, when you arch back, one pushes hard on the other like shingles on a roof.
现在，有趣的是，当你向后拱起时，当小面关节像我所描述的那样打开时，当你向后拱起时，一个会像屋顶上的木瓦一样用力推另一个。
That stresses a bone called the pars bone, and gymnasts, for example, get a very typical fracture pattern called a spondylolisthesis, which is a fracture of that bone, and then the spine shifts a little bit at that joint.
这会对称为腰骨的骨头施加压力，例如，体操运动员会出现一种非常典型的骨折模式，称为脊椎滑脱，这是该骨头的骨折，然后脊柱在该关节处稍微移动。
I'm just finishing rehabbing a pro tennis player who had the same thing after they tried to have too much range of motion in their serve.
我刚刚完成了一位职业网球运动员的康复训练，他在发球时尝试过大的运动范围后也出现了同样的情况。
The coach gave them excessive extension to try and put more miles an hour on the ball, but it didn't suit the spine, and they ended up having a stress fracture.
教练让他们过度伸展，试图每小时跑更多英里，但这不适合脊柱，最终导致应力性骨折。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is it fair to say that if we are naturally flexible, for instance, like my sister, her fingers can bend back really easily.
公平地说，如果我们天生柔韧，例如像我姐姐一样，她的手指很容易向后弯曲。
Her shoulder extension, which I guess for people that aren't familiar with shoulder extension, let's say you're leaning up against a railing with your back to the railing.
她的肩部伸展，我想对于那些不熟悉肩部伸展的人来说，假设你靠在栏杆上，背对着栏杆。
The railing, let's just say is just above lower back height, and you can put both hands on it parallel so your arms are close together, very close to the torso.
栏杆的高度就在下背部的上方，你可以将双手平行放在栏杆上，这样你的手臂就靠在一起，非常靠近躯干。
And people don't do this quickly because you can tear something or injure something.
人们不会很快这样做，因为你可能会撕裂或伤害某些东西。
But then with feet about, I don't know, a foot or two away from that bar, you can do a knee bend, and basically, the arms go back behind you.
但是，然后用脚，我不知道，距离那个酒吧一两英尺，你可以做膝盖弯曲，基本上，手臂回到你身后。
I happen to have a fair degree of just natural shoulder extension ability.
我碰巧有相当程度的自然肩部伸展能力。
I'm not particularly "flexible," quote-unquote, but that's just how I'm structured.
诚然，我并不是特别“灵活”，但这就是我的结构。
I have some friends that can't do that to save their life.
我有一些朋友无法这样做来挽救他们的生命。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I wouldn't consider myself hyperflexible.
但我不认为自己过于灵活。
My sister is a bit more flexible.
我姐姐比较灵活一点。
We're related, obviously.
显然我们有关系。
So would people like her or people that tend to be pretty flexible naturally, would they be wise to avoid certain activities if their goal is to remain pain-free?
那么，像她这样的人或者天生就很灵活的人，如果他们的目标是保持无痛，那么避免某些活动是否明智？
You talk about the Saint Bernard running on the greyhound track.
你谈到了在灰狗赛道上奔跑的圣伯纳犬。
We all can enjoy things recreationally, but of course, we don't want to injure ourselves.
我们都可以享受娱乐，但当然，我们不想伤害自己。
So as somebody who's naturally flexible, should they avoid certain sports and activities?
那么，作为一个天生柔韧的人，他们应该避免某些运动和活动吗？
And conversely, if somebody is naturally stiffer, thicker spine, thicker joints, should they avoid certain activities?
相反，如果某人天生比较僵硬、脊柱较粗、关节较粗，他们是否应该避免某些活动？
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
That's a huge question, and there's many more variables to consider.
这是一个很大的问题，而且还有更多的变量需要考虑。
But I will say that when we are rehabilitating a athlete or just a person to get back to work, they're an occupational athlete, we take all of this into consideration.
但我要说的是，当我们让运动员康复或只是让一个人重返工作岗位时，他们是职业运动员，我们会考虑所有这些。
So as you were describing your sister arching back, A, I know she has plump discs, discs that are full of fluid to allow the mobility to take place in the discs.
因此，当您描述您的妹妹弓背时，A，我知道她有丰满的椎间盘，椎间盘充满了液体，可以让椎间盘发生活动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
I also know that if we looked at an X-ray from the side, you know the posterior spinous processes.
我还知道，如果我们从侧面看 X 光片，就会知道后棘突。
If you run your thumb down the midline of a person's back, you will feel the bumps of bone up the middle of the spine.
如果你用拇指沿着一个人的背部中线滑动，你会感觉到脊柱中部的骨头凸起。
Those are the posterior spines.
这些是后棘。
She will have a large space between each one when she's standing upright.
当她直立时，每个人之间都会有很大的空间。
So when she extends back, those spaces will come together, and eventually, the spines, what we call it kissing spines.
因此，当她向后延伸时，这些空间将聚集在一起，最终形成刺，我们称之为接吻刺。
And it takes me back to some of the old Russian techniques for bench press.
这让我想起了一些古老的俄罗斯卧推技术。
They would bench press with a huge arch in their back.
他们会在背部形成巨大的弓形的情况下进行卧推。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
And then other people would say, "Oh, well, I'm going to try and mimic that particular bench press technique," because it allows you to get much more force out of latissimus dorsi, a stiffer back, and you get a different force vector and actually more effective force on the bar.
然后其他人会说，“哦，好吧，我要尝试模仿那种特殊的卧推技术”，因为它可以让你从背阔肌、更僵硬的背部获得更多的力量，并且你会得到不同的力矢量，实际上在杠铃上得到更有效的力量。
They didn't realize that when we work with a person who has a huge arch, they have big spaces between those spinous processes.
他们没有意识到，当我们与一个有巨大足弓的人一起工作时，他们的棘突之间有很大的空间。
And if you don't have those big spaces, you are going to crush the interspinous ligaments, which naturally are between those spaces, and you will now fire off a whole set of new problems.
如果你没有那些大的空间，你就会压碎棘间韧带，而棘间韧带自然位于这些空间之间，你现在就会引发一系列新问题。
So what is a mechanical advantage for one person is a mechanical disadvantage for another.
因此，对一个人来说机械上的优势对另一个人来说就是机械上的劣势。
Do you follow?
你跟随吗？
So all of this matters.
所以所有这些都很重要。
Going back to the disc being a fabric of layer upon layer of collagen strands.
回到椎间盘，它是一层又一层的胶原蛋白丝的织物。
Typically, the disc is about 80% type I collagen.
通常，椎间盘约 80% 是 I 型胶原蛋白。
That is the stiff strength collagen.
那就是坚韧的胶原蛋白。
About another 20% is elastic collagen, type II.
另外大约 20% 是 II 型弹性胶原蛋白。
But there's types three through 10 that bind those collagen fibers together.
但有 3 到 10 种类型可以将这些胶原纤维粘合在一起。
That's where there's a much greater degree of genetic variability.
这就是遗传变异程度更大的地方。
So there are some people who can get away with doing many sit-ups.
所以有些人可以做很多仰卧起坐。
They have a slender spine, and they have the type of binding collagen that holds all those fibers together.
它们有细长的脊柱，并且具有将所有这些纤维粘合在一起的粘合胶原蛋白类型。
But if I wanted to work these fibers of my shirt apart, get them to delaminate, I would create repeated stress strain reversals.
但如果我想将衬衫的这些纤维分开，让它们分层，我会产生重复的应力应变反转。
The resistance of that fabric depends on the stuff holding the fibers together.
该织物的阻力取决于将纤维固定在一起的物质。
So there will be binding fibers there.
所以那里会有结合纤维。
That's where the genetic variance lies in many people.
这就是许多人的遗传差异所在。
So even there, the person's resilience to repeatedly doing a bending drill is determined by your parents to some degree, both in the size, the collagen type three through 10 makeups.
因此，即使在那里，一个人对反复进行弯曲钻的适应能力在某种程度上也是由你的父母决定的，包括尺寸、胶原蛋白类型 3 到 10 的化妆。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 for more than 10 years now, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring this podcast.
你们很多人都知道，我服用 AG1 已有 10 多年了，所以我很高兴他们赞助这个播客。
To be clear, I don't take AG1 because they're a sponsor.
需要明确的是，我选择 AG1 并不是因为他们是赞助商。
Rather, they are a sponsor because I take AG1.
相反，他们是赞助商，因为我选择了 AG1。
In fact, I take AG1 once and often twice every single day, and I've done that since starting way back in 2012.
事实上，我每天服用一次 AG1，经常服用两次，早在 2012 年我就开始这样做了。
There is so much conflicting information out there nowadays about what proper nutrition is.
关于什么是适当的营养，现在有很多相互矛盾的信息。
But here's what there seems to be a general consensus on.
但这似乎是一个普遍共识。
Whether you're an omnivore, a carnivore, a vegetarian, or a vegan, I think it's generally agreed that you should get most of your food from unprocessed or minimally processed sources, which allows you to eat enough but not overeat, get plenty of vitamins and minerals, probiotics, and micronutrients that we all need for physical and mental health.
无论你是杂食动物、肉食动物、素食主义者还是纯素食主义者，我认为人们普遍认为你应该从未经加工或最低限度加工的来源获取大部分食物，这样你就可以吃得足够但不过量，获得充足的维生素和矿物质、益生菌和微量营养素，这些都是我们身心健康所需的。
Now, I personally am an omnivore, and I strive to get most of my food from unprocessed or minimally processed sources.
现在，我个人是杂食动物，我努力从未加工或最低限度加工的来源获取大部分食物。
But the reason I still take AG1 once and often twice every day is that it ensures I get all of those vitamins, minerals, probiotics, et cetera, but it also has adaptogens to help me cope with stress.
但我仍然每天服用一次 AG1（通常是两次）的原因是它可以确保我获得所有维生素、矿物质、益生菌等，而且它还含有适应原来帮助我应对压力。
It's basically a nutritional insurance policy meant to augment, not replace quality food.
它基本上是一项营养保险政策，旨在增强而不是取代优质食品。
So by drinking a serving of AG1 in the morning and again in the afternoon or evening, I cover all of my foundational nutritional needs.
因此，通过早上喝一份 AG1，然后在下午或晚上再喝一次，我就可以满足我所有的基本营养需求。
And I, like so many other people that take AG1, report feeling much better in a number of important ways, such as energy levels, digestion, sleep, and more.
和许多其他服用 AG1 的人一样，我报告在许多重要方面感觉好多了，例如能量水平、消化、睡眠等。
So while many supplements out there are really directed towards obtaining one specific outcome, AG1 is foundational nutrition designed to support all aspects of wellbeing related to mental health and physical health.
因此，虽然许多补充剂实际上是为了获得一种特定的结果，但 AG1 是基础营养，旨在支持与心理健康和身体健康相关的各个方面的福祉。
If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。
They'll give you five free travel packs with your order, plus a year's supply of vitamin D3K2.
您订购后，他们将赠送 5 个免费旅行套装，以及一年的维生素 D3K2。
Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman.
再说一遍，这是 Drinkag1.com/huberman。
Unless somebody is seeking to be a world-class athlete in something, in which case they should probably pay attention to their genetics and see whether or not it lines up well with a given sport.
除非有人想成为某方面的世界级运动员，在这种情况下，他们可能应该关注自己的基因，看看它是否与特定的运动相匹配。
Although there have been exceptions where people who are incredibly genetically, let's just say biased toward not being able to perform well in a sport have nonetheless succeeded in performing at a world-class level.
尽管也有例外，那些基因极其出色的人，我们可以说，那些在一项运动中表现不佳的人，仍然成功地达到了世界级的水平。
But those are exceedingly rare exceptions.
但这些都是极其罕见的例外。
For most people who want to do things recreationally, like the heavier set person with a thicker spine who wants to golf or do ballet perhaps.
对于大多数想要休闲活动的人来说，比如体格较重、脊柱较粗、可能想打高尔夫球或跳芭蕾的人。
Or the thinner, willowy person who wants to get into power lifting, for instance.
例如，或者是那些瘦弱、苗条、想要从事举重运动的人。
Are there certain things that they should each consider and embrace as activities in order to make themselves more resilient, more pain resilient, and more apt to have higher performance?
他们是否应该考虑某些事情并将其作为活动来接受，以使自己更有弹性，更有弹性，更能承受痛苦，并且更容易获得更高的绩效？
For instance, would the willowy person, so to speak, do well to build up some of the musculature around the spine to compensate for the thinness of that spine?
例如，可以说，身材苗条的人是否可以在脊柱周围增加一些肌肉组织来弥补脊柱的薄弱？
And would the person with the heavier or thicker spine do well to try and encourage more pliability of their discs somehow?
脊柱较重或较厚的人是否会尝试以某种方式增强椎间盘的柔韧性？
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
The answer is yes, but it's a very limited yes.
答案是肯定的，但这是非常有限的。
So if I can set the stage and give some context here.
因此，我是否可以在此做好准备并提供一些背景信息。
Every system in the body requires stress for optimal health.
身体的每个系统都需要压力才能达到最佳健康状态。
Think of the cardiovascular system, the musculoskeletal system, the endocrine system, even the psychological system.
想想心血管系统、肌肉骨骼系统、内分泌系统，甚至心理系统。
It needs stress to create adaptation for robustness.
它需要压力来创造适应性以实现稳健性。
But you cannot cross what's known as the tipping point, because if you do, you start building cumulative trauma of some form, whether it's emotional trauma psychologically or it's cumulative stress at the tissue level, at the level of the cell.
但你不能跨越所谓的临界点，因为如果你这样做了，你就会开始积累某种形式的累积创伤，无论是心理上的情感创伤，还是组织水平、细胞水平的累积压力。
So we have to talk about those tipping points.
所以我们必须谈谈这些临界点。
We've got to define where they are, try and expand them, adapt them, but don't cross them.
我们必须定义它们的位置，尝试扩展它们，适应它们，但不要跨越它们。
So with that context now, we can talk about a person's suitability for the stresses on different parts of their body associated with different sports.
因此，现在有了这样的背景，我们就可以讨论一个人是否适合与不同运动相关的身体不同部位的压力。
We can talk about the rate at which the adaptation occurs, the amount of deloads and rest that are required.
我们可以讨论适应发生的速度、所需的减负和休息量。
All of these things are genetically influenced.
所有这些都受到遗传的影响。
The way that they perform the movement is going to move the stress concentration.
他们执行运动的方式将转移应力集中。
Here's an interesting demonstration for you.
这是为您提供的一个有趣的演示。
If you go to the Olympics and look at the podium winners of a javelin thrower, they look identical.
如果你去奥运会看看标枪运动员的领奖台获胜者，他们看起来都是一样的。
Do you think the swimmers look like the javelin throwers?
你认为游泳运动员看起来像标枪运动员吗？
No, they don't.
不，他们没有。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But they look like each other.
但他们看起来很像。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
But they look like each other.
但他们看起来很像。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
The people on the podium look very similar in structure.
讲台上的人看上去结构很相似。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Let me just give another very poignant example of that.
让我再举一个非常深刻的例子。
Consider a sport that has three very separate demands of the athlete.
考虑一项对运动员有三个截然不同的要求的运动。
Consider a triathlete.
考虑一位铁人三项运动员。
The triathlete has to swim a certain distance, then they bike a certain distance, and then they run a certain distance.
铁人三项运动员必须游泳一定的距离，然后骑自行车一定的距离，然后跑一定的距离。
Have you ever known a person who comes out of the lake or the pool, whatever it is, first, winning the triathlon?
你是否认识一个从湖里或泳池里出来的人，无论是什么，首先赢得了铁人三项比赛？
Doesn't work that way.
那样不行。
What suited them to be a fish, fast in water, they have to be somewhat floppy in the ankles because they're creating a fish's fin, longer in the torso.
它们之所以适合鱼，在水中速度很快，但它们的脚踝必须有些松软，因为它们形成了鱼的鳍，而躯干则更长。
Consider a power lifter performing a butterfly stroke.
考虑一名举重运动员进行蝶泳。
It wouldn't look very pretty.
它看起来不会很漂亮。
Then they get on the bike where they have to stiffen the core.
然后他们骑上自行车，必须加强核心肌群。
I don't know if you know bike design well.
我不知道你是否了解自行车设计。
I'm sure you do.
我相信你会的。
You're paying for stiffness of the frame.
您正在为框架的刚度付出代价。
That's what a really elite-
这才是真正的精英——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I did not know that.
我不知道。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So when a person pushes on the pedal, the frame doesn't flex because that would be an energy leak.
因此，当人踩踏板时，框架不会弯曲，因为这会导致能量泄漏。
You pay for a very stiff frame, so every ounce of force that you apply to the crank handle to propel you forward propels you forward instead of being wasted and bending the frame.
您购买的是非常坚硬的框架，因此您施加到曲柄手柄上以推动您前进的每一盎司的力都会推动您前进，而不是浪费并弯曲框架。
The same way the cyclist will lock in on the bike.
就像骑自行车的人锁定自行车一样。
They'll squeeze the saddle between their legs, lock into the bars, lock their core down, so that when they create power through the hips and through the legs, it's transferred to the power.
他们会挤压双腿之间的马鞍，锁定杆，锁定他们的核心，这样当他们通过臀部和腿部产生力量时，它就会转化为力量。
It isn't transferred to bending their willowy body.
它不会转移到弯曲他们柔软的身体。
That is very different from the neurology and the mechanics of a swimmer.
这与游泳运动员的神经学和力学有很大不同。
Now let's run.
现在我们跑吧。
To run, the most efficient runners store and recover elastic energy in tuned springs.
为了跑步，最高效的跑步者会在调谐弹簧中存储和恢复弹性能量。
A wonderful book to read is "The Lost Art of Running" by Shane Benzie, who studied the Kenyan runners and how they store and recover elastic energy with each stride, almost the same way as a kangaroo would.
肖恩·本齐（Shane Benzie）的《失落的跑步艺术》是一本值得一读的好书，他研究了肯尼亚跑步者以及他们如何在每一步中存储和恢复弹性能量，几乎与袋鼠一样。
A kangaroo is more efficient when it hops versus plodding along using eccentric concentric muscle contraction.
袋鼠跳跃时比使用偏心同心肌肉收缩缓慢前进时效率更高。
So again, the polar opposite of a swimmer.
再说一次，这与游泳运动员截然相反。
It's a very tuned stiffness.
这是一个非常协调的刚度。
The most efficient runners for the third leg of the triathlon pre-stiffen.
铁人三项赛第三赛段最高效的跑步者进行预强化。
They have a pre-contraction of the muscle, so when the foot hits the ground, they're already storing the elastic elements, and they get that back for free.
它们的肌肉有预收缩功能，因此当脚接触地面时，它们已经储存了弹性元件，并且可以免费恢复。
But if the springs were not tuned and they'd stretched away their muscles just to be passive elements, which serves them very well in the swimming element.
但如果弹簧没有调整好，他们就会伸展肌肉，成为被动元素，这对他们在游泳元素中非常有用。
Think of doing a pogo jump.
想想做一个单高跷跳。
So you're just pogoing through the ankles now.
所以你现在只是在脚踝处弹跳。
If you had no tone in the legs, you would just flop into the ground, and you would have to use concentric eccentric muscle contraction.
如果你的腿没有张力，你就会摔倒在地，并且你必须使用同心偏心肌肉收缩。
But if you stiffened too much, you're now a piece of iron, and you won't be able to jump either.
但如果你太僵硬了，你现在就是一块铁，你也跳不了。
But you'll get a beautiful resonance, a beautiful pogo, when you have the tuning just right.
但是，当你调音得当时，你会得到美妙的共鸣，美妙的单高跷。
So when a muscle contracts, it creates force.
因此，当肌肉收缩时，它会产生力。
We all know this.
我们都知道这一点。
But people don't appreciate you're also tuning the stiffness.
但人们不明白你也在调整刚度。
If I maximally contract my muscles, I can't move.
如果我最大限度地收缩肌肉，我就无法移动。
So athletes have to tune muscle if they're impacting athletes, but they also have to pulse and relax.
因此，如果运动员对运动员产生影响，就必须调整肌肉，但他们也必须脉动和放松。
Pulse.
脉冲。
We were talking about Mike Tyson before the podcast today and the mechanics of how he pulses, and then he's got to relax to get closing velocity of the fist to the opponent.
我们在今天的播客之前谈论了迈克·泰森以及他的脉动机制，然后他必须放松以获得拳头接近对手的速度。
And then when his fist hits the opponent, he turns to granite, and it is just such an awesome experience to feel that a little bit.
然后，当他的拳头击中对手时，他会变成花岗岩，感受到一点点真是太棒了。
It's one of the joys of my life, working with elite athletes, to feel their athleticism, but then dissect it down as to how they do it.
与精英运动员一起工作，感受他们的运动能力，然后剖析他们是如何做到的，这是我一生的乐趣之一。
So there's a lot in that, but that lesson from the triathlete really shows us how you can't be good at everything.
这其中有很多内容，但铁人三项运动员的教训确实告诉我们，你不可能样样都擅长。
There's always a trade-off with athleticism and the genetic part, and then, of course, in the appropriate training to optimize and express that genetic gift
运动能力和遗传部分总是需要权衡，然后，当然，通过适当的训练来优化和表达遗传天赋
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
...
...
through technique.
通过技术。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Through technique.
通过技术。
So some athletes are very loose, some athletes are very tight.
所以有些运动员很松，有些运动员很紧。
Some are very elastic.
有些非常有弹性。
You won't hit a golf ball 330 yards if you're not an elastic athlete.
如果您不是一个有弹性的运动员，您就不会将高尔夫球击出 330 码。
You'll notice if you measure a golfer who can hit 330 yards, they don't test very strong.
您会注意到，如果您测量可以打 330 码的高尔夫球手，他们的测试强度并不高。
They have a beautiful, tuned, elastic body.
他们拥有美丽、协调、富有弹性的身体。
You can almost see it if you've worked with enough of them.
如果您与足够多的人一起工作过，您几乎可以看到它。
There's a smoothness to the muscle.
肌肉有一种光滑感。
So underneath the skin is a fascial net.
所以皮肤下面有一张筋膜网。
Someone who can throw a baseball 110, 115, 120 miles an hour will be the same, but now you have a very asymmetric elastic effect.
能以每小时 110、115、120 英里的速度投掷棒球的人也是一样的，但现在你有一个非常不对称的弹性效应。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I know that you loathe and avoid generalizations, with good reason.
所以我知道你厌恶并避免一概而论，这是有充分理由的。
But given that most people listening to or watching this are probably not aiming to become elite athletes, I know I'm certainly not can we safely make at least one or two generalizations about what we each and all can do to try and avoid ...
但考虑到大多数听或看这个节目的人可能并不打算成为精英运动员，我知道我当然不会，我们可以安全地对我们每个人和所有人可以做什么来尝试避免做至少一两个概括......
let's say back pain and injury, by either diversifying our training or avoiding certain types of training.
比如说背痛和受伤，通过多样化我们的训练或避免某些类型的训练。
For instance, let's take the three major phenotypes.
例如，让我们以三种主要表型为例。
And this is obviously not how the world works, but the classic ectomorphic phenotype, very thin, very willowy, small joints, long and lithe.
这显然不是世界运作的方式，而是典型的外胚型表型，非常瘦，非常柔韧，关节小，长而柔软。
The mesomorph, thicker, more muscular, and then the so-called endomorph, the more heavier set, maybe even carrying some extra body fat, et cetera.
中胚型，更厚，肌肉更发达，然后是所谓的内胚型，更重，甚至可能携带一些额外的身体脂肪，等等。
You don't really know what's under there.
你根本不知道下面有什么。
They could fall into either of the other two phenotypes.
他们可能属于其他两种表型中的任何一种。
I could imagine, based on everything that you're saying, that a good rule of thumb would be avoid the types of activities that are outside of your natural genetic propensity based on body type, at least in the extremes.
根据你所说的一切，我可以想象，一个好的经验法则是避免超出你基于体型的自然遗传倾向的活动类型，至少在极端情况下是这样。
If you're not very bendy, don't do seven days a week of yoga.
如果你的身体柔韧性不太好，就不要每周做 7 天瑜伽。
Okay?
好的？
But I could also imagine the opposite, which is if you're not very bendy, do seven days of yoga because that's going to allow you to become more bendy.
但我也可以想象相反的情况，如果你的身体柔韧性不是很好，那就练习 7 天的瑜伽，因为这会让你变得更加柔韧。
Or the person that is naturally shaped more like a shot putter, let's say the mesomorph or endomorph, and you could say, well, they'd be great powerlifter.
或者天生体形更像铅球运动员的人，比如说中胚型或内胚型，你可以说，好吧，他们会是伟大的举重运动员。
I knew kids like this in high school, PE class, they're like, "Okay, weight training today." None of us had done weight training, and then the kid lies down and pushes 315, and you're like, "Oh, goodness.
我在高中体育课上就认识这样的孩子，他们会说，“好吧，今天进行举重训练。”我们都没有做过重量训练，然后那个孩子躺下来推 315，你会说，“哦，天哪。
That's wild." But maybe they shouldn't be weight training.
那太疯狂了。”但也许他们不应该进行重量训练。
If their goal is to be all around fit, which I think is the goal of most people, to be able to carry some luggage at the airport without having to stop every once in a while and suck for air, to be able to lean down and grab something out of a cabinet, pick up a kid, do some hard labor in the yard, move some logs and things like that.
如果他们的目标是全身健康，我认为这是大多数人的目标，能够在机场搬运一些行李，而不必每隔一段时间停下来呼吸空气，能够弯下腰从柜子里拿东西，抱起孩子，在院子里做一些苦力劳动，搬一些木头之类的东西。
Just be able to do stuff without getting injured and without being so sore in the following days that you feel like you need extensive rehabilitation.
只要能够在不受伤的情况下做事，并且在接下来的几天里不会感到如此疼痛，以至于您觉得自己需要广泛的康复。
So again, I know you like to avoid generalizations, but should we make it a point to train against our predisposition in order to offset the imbalances that would otherwise occur, or would we be wise to lean into our strengths and just not touch stuff that taps into our weaknesses?
再说一次，我知道你喜欢避免一概而论，但我们是否应该重点针对我们的倾向进行训练，以抵消否则可能发生的不平衡，或者我们是否明智地依靠我们的优势而不是触及我们的弱点？
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
I understand the question.
我明白这个问题。
The answer is I don't know, but I know people will say, "Oh, well, this professor, he's avoiding the question." And I'm not going to do that.
答案是我不知道，但我知道人们会说，“哦，好吧，这位教授，他在回避这个问题。”我不会那样做。
So I'm going to tell you how I find the answer, and it's through assessment.
所以我将告诉你我如何找到答案，这是通过评估。
And I'm glad we're getting back to back pain, by the way, because it's the cornerstone of my expertise.
顺便说一句，我很高兴我们又回到了背痛问题，因为这是我专业知识的基石。
Our assessment is very comprehensive.
我们的评估非常全面。
It starts out by me simply asking the person, "Tell me your story." And some people never tell me about their pain when I ask them to tell me their story.
一开始我只是简单地问那个人：“告诉我你的故事。”当我要求有些人告诉我他们的故事时，他们从未告诉我他们的痛苦。
They will be telling me about their family life and the pressures that they have to still go to work because they have two kids in school or four kids in school, or they might tell me about the passions that they have, or they might tell me about their goals.
他们会告诉我他们的家庭生活以及他们仍然必须去工作的压力，因为他们有两个孩子在学校或四个孩子在学校，或者他们可能会告诉我他们的热情，或者他们可能会告诉我他们的目标。
So the goals are the beginning of answering your question, Andrew.
所以目标是回答你的问题的开始，安德鲁。
We all know people who aren't suited for a certain occupation, or they aren't suited-- I'll take myself, for example.
我们都知道有些人不适合某种职业，或者他们不适合——以我自己为例。
I had a high school careers counselor tell my father, "Well, McGill, he's not really suited academically.
我有一位高中职业顾问告诉我父亲，“嗯，麦吉尔，他在学业上不太适合。
He should go to trade school." And so I registered-
他应该去贸易学校。”于是我就注册了——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oops
哎呀
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
...
...
for plumbing school.
对于管道学校。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I just went, "Oops," because clearly that's not the way you went.
不，我只是说，“哎呀”，因为显然那不是你走的路。
Not that going to plumbing school-
不是去管道学校-
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
would be a bad decision for some, but in your case, you went a very different direction.
对某些人来说这将是一个糟糕的决定，但就你而言，你走了一个非常不同的方向。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Well, I think I would've been okay as a plumber.
嗯，我想我当水管工应该没问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
But anyway, my point in that is, what are the goals?
但无论如何，我的观点是，目标是什么？
Then the assessment, I'm paying attention to the person's learning style, how are we going to coach them, and then we get down to the details of their pain.
然后是评估，我关注这个人的学习风格，我们将如何指导他们，然后我们深入了解他们痛苦的细节。
What's the nature of the pain?
疼痛的性质是什么？
Is it when they get out of bed in the morning?
是他们早上起床的时候吗？
Is it associated with a certain activity?
它与某种活动有关吗？
Is it associated with certain motions, postures, or loads?
它与某些运动、姿势或负荷有关吗？
Does the pain change?
疼痛有变化吗？
Does it start out on one side of the back, and then later in the day, it's in the left glute?
它是否从背部的一侧开始，然后在当天晚些时候，它在左侧臀部？
Or does it go down to your right toes?
或者它会延伸到你的右脚趾吗？
All of these things are telling me about the stability of the pain.
所有这些都告诉我疼痛的稳定性。
It's giving me clues on what I'm going to assess.
它为我提供了有关我要评估的内容的线索。
Then we go and assess them, and it begins with what we call provocative testing.
然后我们去评估它们，并从我们所谓的挑衅性测试开始。
I'm purposefully provoking their pain.
我是故意激起他们的痛苦。
If I can provoke their pain, I've nailed the mechanic.
如果我能激起他们的痛苦，我就成功了。
If I can't provoke it, it's not mechanical.
如果我不能激怒它，它就不是机械的。
Okay, well, that tells me something now.
好吧，现在这告诉了我一些事情。
So now I'm starting to see, I know what their job is.
所以现在我开始明白，我知道他们的工作是什么。
I know what sport it is they want to do.
我知道他们想做什么运动。
I know enough about that job and sport that I know the physical demands.
我对这项工作和运动足够了解，我知道对身体的要求。
I know the psychological demands.
我知道心理需求。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Do they have what's required of the job or sport?
他们具备工作或运动所需的条件吗？
And then I test that.
然后我测试一下。
If it triggers their pain, we have a problem.
如果这引发了他们的痛苦，我们就有麻烦了。
So now we have to focus the training very specifically because people do not have infinite training capacity.
所以现在我们必须非常有针对性地进行培训，因为人们没有无限的培训能力。
They only have so much, and when you're hurt, you have even less.
他们拥有的只有这么多，而当你受伤时，你拥有的就更少了。
So we try and focus on things that are going to make a difference to enable them to have the ability to meet those specific demands that we've identified.
因此，我们尝试专注于那些能够带来改变的事情，使他们能够满足我们已经确定的特定需求。
So do you see how it's a long-winded answer, but I know how to get there to know how to train them.
所以你明白这是一个冗长的答案吗，但我知道如何到达那里以了解如何训练它们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
So now that we've recognized the very specific nature of their pain pathway And it may be something that's going through the linkage.
现在我们已经认识到他们的疼痛途径的非常特殊的性质，并且它可能是通过联系进行的。
In other words, when they run-- I could give you an example of if we put a group of Canadian hockey players on an elliptical trainer, they don't do very well because typical of the sport, the hockey players tend to get stiffer in the hips.
换句话说，当他们跑步时——我可以给你举个例子，如果我们把一群加拿大曲棍球运动员放在椭圆训练机上，他们的表现不会很好，因为根据这项运动的典型特征，曲棍球运动员的臀部往往会变得更僵硬。
It's the way they are.
他们就是这样。
They skate a little bit flexed, and they carry all the heavy skates and heavy equipment down the legs.
他们滑冰时有点弯曲，他们把所有沉重的溜冰鞋和重型设备都扛在腿上。
They get stiffer in the hips.
他们的臀部变得更加僵硬。
When they go on the elliptical, their hips don't have the range of motion, and their spine and pelvis gyrates with every rotation on the elliptical trainer.
当他们在椭圆机上时，他们的臀部没有活动范围，并且他们的脊柱和骨盆随着椭圆机上的每次旋转而旋转。
The elliptical gives them back pain if they already have motion-triggered back pain.
如果他们已经有运动引发的背痛，椭圆机会让他们背痛。
We take another group who has mobile hips.
我们选择另一组具有活动臀部的人。
They do very well on elliptical trainers.
他们在椭圆机上表现非常好。
The stress doesn't go into their backs.
压力不会传到他们的背上。
So now do you see why I know why one group does well with ellipticals, the other group does not?
现在你明白为什么我知道为什么一组在椭圆机上表现很好而另一组则不然吗？
I know why one group, who I'll give them a lateral shear test, which is basically a bear hug.
我知道为什么一组，我会给他们进行横向剪切测试，这基本上是一个熊抱。
I pull their pelvis towards me as I hook down their shoulder in my armpit.
当我将他们的肩膀钩在我的腋下时，我将他们的骨盆拉向我。
So I'm shearing their spine laterally.
所以我要横向剪切他们的脊柱。
If that triggers their pain, exactly.
如果这确实引发了他们的痛苦。
I had a pro hockey player the other day.
前几天我有一个职业曲棍球运动员。
I gave him the lateral shear test, and he had a right-sided flash of pain going around his right flank.
我给他做了侧向剪切测试，他的右胁周围出现右侧疼痛。
It exactly replicated the pain.
它完全复制了疼痛。
I just found with precision the mechanism.
我刚刚精确地找到了机制。
Okay, what's the antidote?
好吧，有什么解药吗？
I put my fingers into his oblique muscles, and I said, "Push my fingers out." And he did it too hard, and he says, "Oh, no, that hurts even more." "Okay, dial it back a bit.
我把手指放进他的斜肌里，然后说：“把我的手指推出来。”他做得太用力了，他说：“哦，不，那更疼了。” “好吧，稍微调回一点。
Tune what we're trying to achieve here.
调整我们在这里想要实现的目标。
Fight me just a little bit." I repeated the formerly offensive test.
跟我战斗一点点吧。”我重复了之前的进攻性测试。
The symptom was gone.
症状消失了。
So now I'm getting more precision on knowing what I need to do.
所以现在我更加准确地知道我需要做什么。
He was doing the Pallof press.
他正在做帕洛夫出版社。
The Pallof press is a long lever exercise.
帕洛夫推举是一项长杠杆练习。
So you take a load, usually with a cable or a band that's held laterally, and you increase the length of the lever, which you have to resist because it's trying to-
因此，你通常用横向固定的电缆或带子承受负载，然后增加杠杆的长度，你必须抵抗它，因为它试图-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you push it out from the body.
所以你把它从身体里推出来。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It's causing you to twist, but it also creates a tremendous shear load on your spine.
它会导致您扭曲，但也会对您的脊柱产生巨大的剪切负荷。
That was triggering his pain.
这引发了他的痛苦。
So we took out the Pallof press, which for him right now is replicating his symptoms.
所以我们拿出了帕洛夫压力机，对他来说，这台压力机现在正在复制他的症状。
But if you're playing in the NHL, you should be able to do a Pallof press.
但如果你在 NHL 打球，你应该能够进行帕洛夫推举。
You follow?
你跟着吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yep.
是的。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It's a requirement of the rigors of professional hockey.
这是职业曲棍球的严格要求。
But he can't do it now.
但他现在做不到。
So this is informing the programming that we're going to do.
这就是通知我们要进行的编程。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So if somebody has pain in a given movement, say, standing up, after they sit for too long-
因此，如果有人在坐得太久后，在某个特定的动作中感到疼痛，比如站起来——
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a particular style of hip hinge, deadlift or squat, or when they run, for instance, would it be wise for them to think about the exact movement that makes the pain the worst in the moment that they're doing the movement or afterwards?
例如，某种特定类型的髋关节铰链、硬拉或深蹲，或者当他们跑步时，明智的做法是考虑一下在他们做动作时或之后使疼痛最严重的确切动作？
Because oftentimes, pain will arrive after we engage in a certain activity, but during the activity, that pain is shut down.
因为很多时候，疼痛会在我们进行某种活动后出现，但在活动过程中，疼痛就会消失。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which, by the way, is an interesting phenomenon in its own right, and might be worth some mention as to a couple of other reasons why that occurs.
顺便说一句，这本身就是一个有趣的现象，并且可能值得一提的是发生这种情况的其他几个原因。
We always think, "Oh, blood flow, it's warm," but clearly, it's more-
我们总是想，“哦，血液流动，它是温暖的”，但显然，它更多的是——
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
It's much more than that
远不止于此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's much more than that.
远不止于此。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Yeah, for sure.
是的，当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So let's say I've pain in a knee when I run.
假设我跑步时膝盖疼痛。
Should I avoid running in that gait that causes pain and work around it?
我是否应该避免以导致疼痛的步态跑步并解决它？
Seems to me that would be the logical choice.
在我看来，这将是合乎逻辑的选择。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Right.
对。
Every person that comes to us comes with back pain, so initially, we avoid it.
每个来找我们的人都患有背痛，所以一开始我们会避免背痛。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
We can have a neurological discussion if you like.
如果您愿意，我们可以进行神经学讨论。
We can have a biomechanical discussion, or we can have a psychological discussion.
我们可以进行生物力学讨论，也可以进行心理学讨论。
We can take it in the framework of any of those if we like.
如果我们愿意，我们可以将其纳入其中任何一个框架中。
If the pain is causing a sensitization, I'm going to use the example here of stubbing your toe.
如果疼痛导致过敏，我将使用这里的例子，即撞到脚趾。
You stub your toe once, okay, well, it hurts a bit, and the pain goes away fairly quickly.
你绊到脚趾一次，好吧，好吧，有点疼，但疼痛很快就消失了。
But if every day you stubbed your toe, you would increase the sensitivity so that you don't have to stub it anymore.
但如果你每天都撞到脚趾，你就会提高敏感度，这样你就不必再撞到脚趾了。
All you have to do is lightly touch that sensitized toe-
你所要做的就是轻轻触碰敏感的脚趾——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
...
...
and you are going to have a maladaptive, heightened response.
你将会产生适应不良的、强烈的反应。
So if we keep creating pain on that toe, it will never get better.
因此，如果我们继续让脚趾疼痛，情况永远不会好转。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
So we have to start a desensitization wind down, which is tissue based, but it's also neurologically based as well.
所以我们必须开始脱敏，这是基于组织的，但也是基于神经学的。
And so because everyone comes to us with pain, we work very hard to hack our way around it.
因为每个人都带着痛苦来找我们，所以我们非常努力地想办法解决这个问题。
So let's say sitting causes their pain.
假设久坐会引起他们的疼痛。
All right, we'll find out that when we do a sitting test, if they sit slouched, that causes their pain.
好吧，我们会发现，当我们进行坐位测试时，如果他们无精打采地坐着，就会导致他们的疼痛。
When they sit upright, their pain goes away.
当他们坐直时，疼痛就会消失。
So I will give them a lumbar support, which I'm just happening to use now.
所以我会给他们一个腰部支撑，我现在正好使用它。
I had to sit on an airplane for five hours yesterday coming to see you, and this allows me to not get back pain on the airplane while I'm sitting.
昨天我在飞机上坐了五个小时来看你，这让我在飞机上坐着时不会腰痛。
Because if I sit flexed for five hours, I will have a grumpy back, and I won't feel like when I get into the hotel to go for a walk and train a bit because that's what we have to do to create a stress below the tipping point to optimize health.
因为如果我弯曲地坐着五个小时，我的背部就会脾气暴躁，当我进入酒店去散步和锻炼一下时我就不会感觉了，因为这是我们必须做的，以创造低于临界点的压力以优化健康。
So it's the same thing in putting together the program.
因此，将程序组合在一起也是一样的。
First of all know the cause, and try and eliminate it.
首先要了解原因，并设法消除它。
So we'll teach them, we spend a lot of time with spine hygiene.
所以我们会教他们，我们花了很多时间来保持脊柱卫生。
We teach them how to hip hinge or squat.
我们教他们如何髋关节铰链或深蹲。
We teach them how to lunge, how to get to the floor.
我们教他们如何弓步，如何落地。
We teach them how to roll without twisting their spine into pain, but using their ball and socket joints.
我们教他们如何滚动而不使脊柱扭曲而感到疼痛，而是使用他们的球窝关节。
We teach them how to do a baby's crawl, which eliminates the torso twisting, which in their current state will offend the sensitized pain trigger.
我们教他们如何进行婴儿爬行，这消除了躯干扭转，在他们目前的状态下，这会刺激敏感的疼痛触发器。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That must be humbling for adults to get down and do a baby's crawl.
对于成年人来说，趴下做婴儿爬行一定是一件令人羞愧的事。
Hey.
嘿。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
It's so humbling to take a world record-holding athlete and humble them right back.
接受一位世界纪录保持者并让他们再次谦虚是一件非常令人谦卑的事情。
As you know, I've had the current holder of the world's all-time record squat, Brian Carroll, and Brian and I have written a book together, so I can use his name.
如你所知，目前深蹲世界纪录保持者布莱恩·卡罗尔（Brian Carroll），我和布莱恩·卡罗尔一起写了一本书，所以我可以使用他的名字。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's the squat record?
深蹲记录是多少？
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
1,306 pounds, if you can believe that.
1,306 磅，如果你相信的话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow, yeah.
哇，是的。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Down to parallel.
向下平行。
Down to parallel.
向下平行。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
No other human has done that.
没有其他人这样做过。
That was four years ago now.
那是四年前的事了。
No one's replicated it.
没有人复制它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Does he wear one of those elastic lifting suits-
他有没有穿着那种弹性举重服——
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Yeah, he does
是的，他确实
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
when he does it?
他什么时候做？
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So he's putting on an exoskeleton of stiffness.
所以他穿上了坚硬的外骨骼。
But I want to come back-
但我想回来——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
...
...
to how humbling it was to have someone who already held world records in squatting in two different weight categories, and I had to show him how to get off the toilet.
拥有一个已经在两个不同重量级别的深蹲世界纪录保持者是多么令人羞愧，我必须向他展示如何离开厕所。
But that's another story, and we both laugh at this now, but that was what pain had done.
但那是另一个故事了，我们现在都笑了，但这就是痛苦造成的。
Pain had corrupted his movement patterns, and he forgot how to squat, but he held the world record.
疼痛破坏了他的运动模式，他忘记了如何蹲下，但他保持着世界纪录。
That's how corruptive pain is to the neurological engram, and we can talk about inhibition and facilitation and all of the things.
这就是疼痛对神经印迹的破坏作用，我们可以谈论抑制和促进以及所有的事情。
I'd love to have that conversation because I know who I'm sitting with.
我很乐意进行这样的谈话，因为我知道我和谁坐在一起。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
The neural aspects are fascinating.
神经方面很有趣。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When he does that incredible squat poundage, does he take the bar off a standard squat rack and then walk it back, or is it one of those ones where the bar is suspended from two hooks, and then he takes it from there?
当他完成令人难以置信的深蹲重量时，他是否会将杠铃从标准深蹲架上取下，然后将其走回来，或者是将杠铃悬挂在两个钩子上，然后他从那里取出杠铃？
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All right.
好吧。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
So that particular lift was lifted off a monolith where he didn't have to walk it out.
因此，那个特殊的电梯是从一块巨石上升起的，他不需要把它走出去。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So he takes it off, so it's hanging from hooks, then the hooks-
所以他把它脱下来，所以它挂在钩子上，然后钩子——
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Are moved out of the way
被移开
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
are out of the way.
不碍事。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The reason I ask is it sounds like he's optimized for one very specific movement in a couple of planes and nothing else, because walking with 1,000 plus pounds on one's shoulders is also a feat in and of itself.
我问这个问题的原因是，听起来他似乎针对几架飞机上的一个非常具体的动作进行了优化，仅此而已，因为肩负 1,000 多磅的重量行走本身也是一项壮举。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Okay.
好的。
Well-
嗯-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're shuffling backwards, as it were.
可以说，你正在向后拖着脚步。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
All right.
好吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
You're not letting me off the hook, which is fine.
你不让我摆脱困境，这很好。
So I've worked with competitors who compete in Strongman, and they can carry and walk with 1,000 pounds on their shoulders.
因此，我曾与参加大力士比赛的选手合作过，他们可以肩负 1,000 磅的重量并行走。
It's called the Super Yoke.
它被称为超级轭。
Another client of ours who held the world Wilks score in the IPF, International Powerlifting Federation, where they do not lift out of a monolith.
我们的另一位客户在 IPF（国际举重联合会）中保持了世界威尔克斯得分，在那里他们不会从一块巨石上举起。
They take the bar off a squat rack, and they have to step back.
他们把杠铃从深蹲架上取下来，然后他们必须后退一步。
And that is, if you don't have enough lateral strength and control in your torso, that's when you become hurt.
也就是说，如果你的躯干没有足够的横向力量和控制力，那就是你受伤的时候。
Not during the squat, it's during the walkout.
不是在深蹲期间，而是在罢工期间。
So it's a very different feat of strength, so you're very astute to say lifting from a monolith is a different athleticism and strength distribution than an IPF style where they lift off a rack and have to walk it out.
所以这是一种非常不同的力量壮举，所以你可以非常机敏地说，从巨石上举重是一种与 IPF 风格不同的运动能力和力量分布，在 IPF 风格中，他们从架子上举起，必须走出去。
So you're standing on one leg.
所以你是单腿站立的。
So can you imagine 1,000 pounds coming down your axial spine, down your midline?
那么，您能想象 1,000 磅的重量沿着您的中轴脊柱向下传递吗？
It hits your pelvis, and then it has to shear across the pelvis and go down the stance leg as you're stepping back with the right.
它会撞击你的骨盆，然后当你用右手向后退一步时，它必须剪切骨盆并沿着站立腿下降。
So it requires tremendous strength to hold the pelvic platform up on the swing leg side.
因此，需要巨大的力量才能将骨盆平台保持在摆动腿侧。
And so that is a tremendous core strength-
所以这是一个巨大的核心力量——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
...
...
component.
组件。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So best to not be carrying a willow spine for that one.
所以最好不要为那个人携带柳脊。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You want to be like a Muir Woods-
你想像缪尔森林一样-
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a redwood-
一棵红杉——
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Well, you want to be-
好吧，你想成为——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
trunk
树干
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
...
...
built like Blaine Sumner, who's another one of our clients.
像我们的另一位客户布莱恩·萨姆纳 (Blaine Sumner) 一样建造。
I've worked with Blaine for quite a number of years.
我和布莱恩一起工作了很多年。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love the analogy to dog breeds.
我喜欢用狗品种来比喻。
I love going to dog shows.
我喜欢去看狗展。
I've only done it a few times.
我只做过几次。
Not to actually see the prancing around of the dogs.
没有真正看到狗的腾跃。
That doesn't interest me at all.
我对此一点也不感兴趣。
Best part about a really excellent dog show is you go back behind the arena where all the different breeds reside.
一场真正精彩的狗展最精彩的部分是你回到所有不同品种的竞技场后面。
So you can see the lineup of the finest Irish wolfhounds, the finest English bulldogs, et cetera.
因此，您可以看到最优秀的爱尔兰猎狼犬、最优秀的英国斗牛犬等的阵容。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hundreds of different breeds.
数百个不同品种。
And you really get to see these genetic extremes, not just of structure, but of temperament.
你真的可以看到这些基因的极端情况，不仅是结构上的，而且是气质上的。
And you get to see the similarity in temperament of the bulldogs.
你会发现斗牛犬的气质相似。
And of course, there's variation.
当然，也有变化。
Some of them are a bit more jolly, others more stoic.
他们中的一些人比较快乐，另一些人则比较坚忍。
The terriers are magnificent in their own right.
梗类犬本身就非常出色。
And as you pointed out earlier with respect to the podium, more similar to each other within breed than across breeds in terms of temperament, but there's variation within breed.
正如您之前在讲台上指出的那样，就气质而言，品种内的彼此比品种间更相似，但品种内存在差异。
The reason I bring this up, and the reason I bring this up now, is that if you look at the movement of those animals, even just the way they walk, whether or not they enjoy a flexion of the paw as they stride, or whether or not they tend to stride differently.
我提出这个问题的原因，以及我现在提出这个问题的原因是，如果你观察这些动物的运动，甚至只是它们行走的方式，它们在迈步时是否喜欢弯曲爪子，或者它们是否倾向于以不同的方式迈步。
I don't have language for this.
我没有语言来表达这个。
I'm not an expert in this, but I have a visual system that works, and I can see that they may move differently.
我不是这方面的专家，但我有一个有效的视觉系统，我可以看到它们可能会以不同的方式移动。
They actually walk differently, even at the same pace.
事实上，即使步伐相同，他们的行走方式也不同。
And then you look at human beings, shorter, taller, medium, more lithe, more heavy set, and it's amazing that we don't take this into consideration, that we all move very differently even within species, but that we bin into these groups.
然后你看看人类，矮的、高的、中等的、更柔软的、更重的，令人惊讶的是我们没有考虑到这一点，即使在物种内部，我们的移动方式也非常不同，但我们被分为这些群体。
So when someone walks into your laboratory, as it were Your clinic/laboratory, are you paying attention to how they move into the room irrespective of pain?
因此，当有人走进您的实验室时，就像您的诊所/实验室一样，您是否注意到他们如何不顾疼痛地进入房间？
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
100%.
100%。
We time the clients.
我们为客户计时。
I see one in the morning and one in the afternoon, and they're three-hour appointments, so I know when they're coming.
我早上看一场，下午看一场，他们的预约时间是三个小时，所以我知道他们什么时候来。
I watch them get out of the car if I can, and that's when the assessment starts.
如果可以的话，我会看着他们下车，然后评估就开始了。
But just to go back to the dogs, my sister's a vet, her husband's a vet, and her daughter's in vet training, so we have these conversations all the time.
但回到狗身上，我姐姐是一名兽医，她的丈夫是一名兽医，她的女儿正在接受兽医培训，所以我们一直在进行这些对话。
Do you know she's already made an assessment of that dog on how it's going to behave when she injects it or has to do a rectal exam or whatnot on what dog or breed, and even in cats, which ones she's going to muzzle because she's usually right on who's going to get bit.
你知道吗，她已经对那只狗进行了评估，评估了注射时狗的行为，或者必须对什么狗或品种，甚至是猫进行直肠检查或诸如此类的事情，她要给哪些猫戴上口套，因为她通常能准确判断谁会被咬。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And interestingly as well, it's how the dog feeds off the owner.
同样有趣的是，这就是狗以主人为食的方式。
And she can look at the owner and usually determine how the dog is going to behave.
她可以看着主人，通常就能确定狗的行为方式。
So talk about the psychosocial milieu around dog behavior.
因此，谈谈狗行为周围的心理社会环境。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Going back to your question, when a person walks in.
回到你的问题，当一个人走进来时。
So I've had-- Have I had a gold medalist in sprints?
所以我有——我有过短跑金牌得主吗？
Yes, I have, from the Olympics.
是的，我有，来自奥运会。
I've had a silver medalist.
我有一位银牌得主。
I've had just about every athlete that you can, and then a person walks in off the street, all with back pain.
我几乎遇到过所有可以接触到的运动员，然后一个人从街上走进来，全都背痛。
In your mind's eye, conjure up the image of a good sprinter.
在你的脑海中浮现出一名优秀短跑运动员的形象。
Do you think they have a flat lower back, or do you think they have a lot of lordosis, which is an extension hollow in their low back?
你认为他们的下背部平坦，还是有很多前凸，即下背部的延伸凹陷？
A sprinter now, what will they have?
现在是短跑运动员，他们会拥有什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I recall seeing Michael Johnson sprinting very upright.
我记得看到迈克尔·约翰逊非常直立地冲刺。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So when I think upright, I think either flat lower back or a little bit of an arch in the lower back.
所以当我想到直立时，我想到的要么是平坦的下背部，要么是下背部有一点拱形。
This kind of movement.
这样的动作。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
He was 200 meters, wasn't he?
他有200米，不是吗？
200 and 400 meters.
200米和400米。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I think he was 200 and 400.
嗯，我想他是200和400。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
He was.
他是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is unusual, someone that could win-
这很不寻常，一个可以获胜的人——
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
gold in both.
两者皆含金。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Well, I'll think of some of the sprinters now, the 100-meter men and women.
好吧，我现在会想到一些短跑运动员，100 米男子和女子运动员。
You will find they have a lot more lordosis than the-
你会发现他们的脊柱前凸比-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So arch in the back.
所以背部拱起。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Distance runners.
长跑运动员。
Yeah.
是的。
They have a low.
他们有一个低点。
And what that does, I'll just explain the running mechanics here for a minute.
这是做什么的，我将在这里解释一下运行机制。
So if you're running along, you have a center of mass.
所以如果你在跑步，你就有一个重心。
You have to bias the force under your feet behind the center of mass to propel you forward, because if it's in front of the center of mass, you're actually braking, which wouldn't win you a gold medal.
你必须将脚下的力量偏向质心后方才能推动你前进，因为如果它位于质心前方，你实际上是在刹车，这不会为你赢得金牌。
So footfall has to occur behind the center of mass, and then you get a very brief period of time to create an extensor pulse and then recover the leg.
因此脚步必须发生在重心后面，然后你会得到很短的时间来产生伸肌脉冲，然后恢复腿部。
If you can pre-turn the pelvis with a lot of lordosis in the spine, you get much more power development behind the center of mass through the extensor range.
如果你能在脊柱前凸的情况下预先转动骨盆，你就能通过伸肌范围在重心后面获得更多的力量。
If you have a flat back, it's difficult now.
如果你的背部平坦，现在就很难了。
You've just shortened up the range that you can pulse into propulsive force as a sprinter.
作为短跑运动员，您刚刚缩短了可以产生推进力的范围。
It turns into a-
它变成了——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So they bow the body.
于是他们鞠躬。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
But you'll notice it's very difficult for a sprinter to kick high.
但你会注意到，对于短跑运动员来说，踢高是非常困难的。
So I look at these different forms in the combat athletes.
所以我观察了格斗运动员的这些不同形式。
If you look at someone who can kick high in a roundhouse, they will tend to have a flatter back.
如果你观察那些能够在圆屋中踢高的人，他们的背部往往会比较平坦。
So combat athletes tend to have a flatter back.
因此，格斗运动员的背部往往比较平坦。
Going back to the runners, you'll notice that the Michael Johnsons and the runners with more distance have a flatter spine.
回到跑步者，您会发现迈克尔·约翰逊和距离更长的跑步者的脊柱更平坦。
They're more upright, and they're tuning that ability to store and recover elastic energy, where the sprinter out of the blocks, it's horsepower.
它们更加直立，并且正在调整存储和恢复弹性能量的能力，让短跑运动员冲出障碍，这就是马力。
It's concentric and eccentric muscle pulsing.
这是同心和偏心的肌肉脉动。
But anyway, there would be an example since you mentioned it with running, the style of running, the event.
但无论如何，既然你提到了跑步、跑步风格、赛事，就会有一个例子。
Running isn't running.
跑步不是跑步。
Running is very different.
跑步是非常不同的。
And again, look at the podium winners of the sprinters versus the 10,000 meters.
再看一下短跑运动员与 10,000 米运动员的领奖台获得者。
Very different architecture.
非常不同的架构。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a brief break to thank one of our sponsors, LMNT.
我想短暂休息一下，以感谢我们的赞助商之一 LMNT。
LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.
LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。
That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium in the correct ratios, but no sugar.
这意味着电解质、钠、镁和钾的比例正确，但没有糖。
Now, I and others on the podcast have talked a lot about the critical importance of hydration for proper brain and bodily function.
现在，我和播客上的其他人已经谈论了很多关于水合作用对于大脑和身体正常功能的至关重要性。
Research shows that even a slight degree of dehydration can really diminish cognitive and physical performance.
研究表明，即使是轻微程度的脱水也会确实降低认知和身体表现。
It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes in order for your body and brain to function at their best.
获得足够的电解质也很重要，这样您的身体和大脑才能发挥最佳功能。
The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are critical for the functioning of all the cells in your body, especially your neurons or nerve cells.
电解质（钠、镁和钾）对于体内所有细胞（尤其是神经元或神经细胞）的功能至关重要。
To make sure that I'm getting proper amounts of hydration and electrolytes, I dissolve one packet of LMNT in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I wake up in the morning, and I drink that basically first thing in the morning.
为了确保我获得适量的水合作用和电解质，当我早上醒来时，我将一包 LMNT 溶解在大约 16 至 32 盎司的水中，并且我基本上早上第一件事就是喝它。
I also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise I'm doing, especially on hot days if I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes.
我还会在进行任何体育锻炼时饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT，尤其是在炎热的天气里，如果我大量出汗并失去水分和电解质。
If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman, spelled drink L-M-N-T.com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with the purchase of any LMNT drink mix.
如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman（拼写为 Drink L-M-N-T.com/huberman），购买任何 LMNT 混合饮料即可领取免费 LMNT 样品包。
Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.
再次强调，请访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman 索取免费样品包。
I love where this conversation is going because there's tremendous variation in body shape and form out there, and I'm certain that by now everybody listening is starting to think about, oh, am I more likely to have a willowy spine, a thinner spine, or a thicker spine, the kind of pliability or what you called vertical stacking resilience that one spine or the other would have.
我喜欢这场谈话的进展，因为身体形状和体态存在巨大的差异，而且我确信现在每个听的人都开始思考，哦，我是否更有可能拥有柔软的脊柱、更薄的脊柱或更粗的脊柱，一种脊柱或另一种脊柱所具有的柔韧性或所谓的垂直堆叠弹性。
And it brings me back to this question of what can we each and all do to try and create the strongest back as well as limit the propensity for pain, assuming we don't have it yet.
这让我回到了这个问题：假设我们还没有做到这一点，我们每个人都可以做些什么来尝试创造最强壮的背部并限制疼痛的倾向。
Okay, so I would say I'm kind of in the middle.
好吧，我想说我处于中间位置。
I'm neither extremely lithe nor am I shaped like a kettlebell.
我既不是非常柔软，也不像壶铃。
Kind of somewhere in between.
介于两者之间。
So for me, I make it a point across my training week to include three resistance training sessions, three "cardiovascular training sessions", one long, one medium, one short cardiovascular session.
因此，对我来说，我在整个训练周中特别强调了三项阻力训练、三项“心血管训练”、一项长、一项中、一项短的心血管训练。
The lifting sessions are geared toward building or maintaining strength in a balanced way for me.
举重课程旨在以平衡的方式增强或保持力量。
Everyone's going to have different requirements.
每个人都会有不同的要求。
In other words, nothing is skewed toward one particular outcome, like endurance or strength or power.
换句话说，没有任何东西会偏向某一特定结果，例如耐力、力量或力量。
And I think most people probably want something similar because they'd like to be able to meet the various demands of life.
我认为大多数人可能想要类似的东西，因为他们希望能够满足生活的各种需求。
So I frame the question I'm about to ask that way because as people start to assess themselves, the question arises again, should we try and compensate for our weaknesses by emphasizing a certain style of training a little bit more?
所以我以这种方式提出我要问的问题，因为当人们开始评估自己时，问题再次出现，我们是否应该通过更多地强调某种训练方式来尝试弥补我们的弱点？
And if so, what does that look like for the spine?
如果是这样，脊柱是什么样子的？
You said earlier, and I love this quote and I want to make sure I attribute it to you now and going forward, that all systems in the body require stress for better health.
你之前说过，我喜欢这句话，我想确保我现在和未来都将它归功于你，身体的所有系统都需要压力才能更好的健康。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Optimal health.
最佳健康状态。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
For optimal health.
为了最佳的健康。
So assuming that somebody has a thinner stature, they're more bendy, would they be wise to build up the muscles of the core?
因此，假设某人身材较瘦，身体更弯曲，那么锻炼核心肌肉是否明智？
Not just the abdominals, but the obliques and the lower back muscles, all around the spine in order to give it more stability.
不仅是腹部肌肉，还有斜肌和下背部肌肉，都在脊柱周围，以使其更加稳定。
And would the person who has a thicker torso, thicker spine, thicker joints do well to emphasize some additional yoga training, anything that allows them to be more bendy?
对于躯干较粗、脊柱较粗、关节较粗的人来说，是否应该强调一些额外的瑜伽训练，或者任何能让他们变得更加柔韧的训练？
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
I'm going to go back to the fact that they're coming to me with pain.
我要回到他们带着痛苦来找我的事实。
We are going to figure out through the thorough assessment what triggers their pain.
我们将通过彻底的评估找出引发他们痛苦的原因。
Most people, it's true, don't want ultimate performance.
确实，大多数人并不想要终极性能。
They're not being paid $10 million to be able to throw a fastball or something like that.
他们并没有获得 1000 万美元的报酬才能投出快球或类似的东西。
They want to enjoy life.
他们想要享受生活。
Let's say they love golf.
假设他们喜欢高尔夫。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
My job is to get them sufficiently robust and out of pain to go and play recreational golf.
我的工作是让他们足够强壮并摆脱疼痛去打休闲高尔夫。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
So it becomes a moot point now whether they have a willowy spine or not.
因此，它们是否有弯曲的脊椎现在成为一个有争议的问题。
I will look at their basic golf swing.
我会看看他们的基本高尔夫挥杆动作。
If I can divide that up, just binary.
如果我能把它分开，那就是二进制。
Some people are what we call twisters.
有些人就是我们所说的扭曲者。
They don't have a lot of hip mobility, and they twist their spine.
他们的髋关节活动度不够，而且脊柱会扭曲。
So it's called the X factor in golf.
所以它被称为高尔夫中的X因素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
And they store and recover elastic energy.
它们储存和恢复弹性能量。
Again, it is an elastic athleticism.
再次强调，这是一种富有弹性的运动能力。
But the next person isn't so much a twister, they're a turner.
但下一个人并不是一个扭曲者，而是一个旋转者。
They have what we call quick hips, so their hips turn, and their spines don't sustain as much twist.
他们有我们所说的快速臀部，所以他们的臀部转动，他们的脊柱不会承受那么多的扭曲。
And then we measure, well, when they impact the ball, if they have 100% violent lateral crunch, and then we measure them and assess them, and that turns out to be their pain trigger, what we do is we don't allow them to go to 100% in lateral crunch at impact.
然后我们测量，当他们击球时，他们是否有 100% 剧烈的侧向紧缩，然后我们测量并评估他们，结果证明这是他们的疼痛触发因素，我们所做的就是不允许他们在击球时达到 100% 的侧向紧缩。
They go to 95%, and that just moved them off the tipping point.
他们达到了 95%，这让他们脱离了临界点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
So they're not stubbing their toe or slamming into the pain sensitizer.
所以他们不会撞到脚趾或撞到疼痛敏化剂。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
They just stay off the desensitizer now.
他们现在只是远离脱敏剂。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So backtracking a little bit, but making sure that I'm doing that with purpose, you need to know what generates the pain in order to-
所以稍微回溯一下，但要确保我这样做是有目的的，你需要知道是什么产生了痛苦，以便-
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Exactly
正是如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
try and localize the pain.
尝试定位疼痛。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
It all comes back to the assessment.
这一切都回到了评估。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But then the goal is not to repeat whatever creates the pain.
但目标不是重复造成痛苦的事情。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Perhaps, what I'm hearing, the goal is to get near the proximity of the pain, but not go there, not generate the movement that recreates the pain, but take the movement as far as one can without creating the pain, and then think about where the instability or weakness or biomechanical failure is contributing to the pain.
也许，我所听到的，目标是接近疼痛，但不是去那里，不是产生重现疼痛的运动，而是在不产生疼痛的情况下尽可能地进行运动，然后思考不稳定、虚弱或生物力学故障在哪里导致疼痛。
Okay, so now I understand why.
好吧，现在我明白为什么了。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
If I can just add one, I don't want to interrupt, but this is-
如果我可以添加一个，我不想打断，但这是-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, please
不，请
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
...
...
a good juncture, Andrew.
这是一个好时机，安德鲁。
Then we get into the volume of exposure.
然后我们进入曝光量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
So remember the tipping point.
所以请记住临界点。
We can have somewhat of an offense to their former pain, but if we do it sparingly, that's another key.
我们可能会对他们以前的痛苦有所冒犯，但如果我们谨慎行事，那就是另一个关键。
So it isn't a matter of selecting the exercise sometimes as much as it is controlling the volume and then having a period of time off or a deload or whatnot.
因此，有时候，问题不在于选择运动，而在于控制运动量，然后休息一段时间或减负等等。
So it may simply be, I've got an athlete that comes to mind right now.
所以可能只是，我现在想到了一位运动员。
In fact, I got an email.
事实上，我收到了一封电子邮件。
It wasn't an email, it was a WhatsApp message.
这不是一封电子邮件，而是一条 WhatsApp 消息。
"Oh, I just won." So she's at an international tournament today, and they play every day.
“哦，我刚刚赢了。”她今天参加了一场国际锦标赛，他们每天都参加比赛。
But in getting her back, it was a matter of we have to do these things that were former pain triggers, but control the volume.
但为了让她回来，我们必须做这些以前会引发疼痛的事情，但要控制音量。
You can think of, again, combat athletes.
你可以再次想到格斗运动员。
Jujitsu requires a lot of spine mobility, and typically jujitsu athletes get pain when they use too much spine mobility.
柔术需要大量的脊柱活动度，通常柔术运动员在使用过多的脊柱活动度时会感到疼痛。
What we do is we limit their training.
我们所做的就是限制他们的训练。
In other words, they have the skill of jujitsu, but they don't need to push the end range every day, because if they do, they're in so much pain they can't train.
换句话说，他们有柔术的技巧，但他们不需要每天都达到极限，因为如果这样做，他们会很痛苦，无法训练。
So we back off the volume.
所以我们降低音量。
And I could tell you stories about professional football players.
我可以告诉你关于职业足球运动员的故事。
They were their strongest when they were in college.
他们在大学的时候是最强的。
Their bodies can't take the heavy strength training once they get into the NFL.
一旦进入NFL，他们的身体就无法承受高强度的力量训练。
They don't squat and deadlift what they used to.
他们不像以前那样深蹲和硬拉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
They're limiting the depth.
他们限制了深度。
They're pulling off blocks.
他们正在拆除街区。
The game changes, and it's not what people think.
游戏发生了变化，而且并不是人们想象的那样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, and there's some wisdom to not pushing into pain and extremes all the time if the goal is to have a long arc of fitness or athletic career.
好吧，如果目标是拥有较长的健身或运动生涯，那么不要一直陷入痛苦和极端，是有一些智慧的。
A good friend of mine, who's very accomplished in the fitness community, he says one of the best ways to get and stay in excellent shape your entire life is to train consistently, train reasonably hard, and we can talk about what his recommendation is, I'd love your thoughts, but as best as one can to not get hurt.
我的一位好朋友在健身界非常有成就，他说一生中获得并保持良好体形的最佳方法之一就是持续训练，相当刻苦地训练，我们可以谈谈他的建议，我喜欢你的想法，但要尽可能不受伤。
We forget about this.
我们忘记了这一点。
We hear so much about training consistently and pushing hard, but the not getting hurt part is key as well.
我们听说过很多关于持续训练和努力训练的说法，但不受伤也是关键。
Here's his recommendation on intensity.
这是他对强度的建议。
Can I share it with you and just get your thoughts?
我可以与您分享并了解您的想法吗？
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Okay.
好的。
I have a short attention span.
我的注意力持续时间很短。
Can I just put add-
我可以添加-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure
当然可以
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
...
...
added value to that-
附加值-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Please
请
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
...
...
don't get hurt?
不受伤吗？
Getting hurt is tremendously asymmetric.
受伤是极其不对称的。
Do you know the book by Taleb Nassim?
你知道塔勒布·纳西姆写的书吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, Nassim Taleb.
哦，纳西姆·塔勒布。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Nassim Taleb.
纳西姆·塔勒布。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, the "Antifragile."
是的，“反脆弱”。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Oh, in "Antifragile," he quotes our work, he quotes my "Low Back Disorders" book as an example of antifragile medicine.
哦，在《反脆弱》中，他引用了我们的工作，他引用了我的《腰部疾病》一书作为反脆弱医学的例子。
Interesting.
有趣的。
Anyway, when you talk to Taleb, in an economic sense, if I gave you $100 to invest, if you had a 50% gain, you'd end up with 150 bucks.
不管怎样，当你和塔勒布交谈时，从经济意义上来说，如果我给你 100 美元来投资，如果你有 50% 的收益，你最终会得到 150 美元。
If you had a 50% loss, you'd end up with 50.
如果你损失了 50%，那么你最终会损失 50%。
It's much more hurtful to lose 50 than the relative jolly you would get of gaining 50.
失去 50 分比获得 50 分所带来的相对快乐要痛苦得多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, there's some neuroscience, certainly some psychology-
是的，有一些神经科学，当然还有一些心理学——
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but certainly some neuroscience to support that-
但肯定有一些神经科学来支持这一点——
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in terms of how we reset our reinforcement threshold.
就我们如何重置强化阈值而言。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
And so it is so asymmetric with injury.
所以受伤的情况是不对称的。
Training, if you push, is taking a risk.
如果你坚持训练，那就是在冒险。
You might gain a little bit in short-term resilience or short-term performance, but you have a chance of really screwing things up, and an injury is really asymmetrically harmful.
你可能会在短期恢复能力或短期表现方面获得一些提升，但你有可能真的把事情搞砸，而且受伤确实是不对称的伤害。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
So when we work with people and athletes, we really try and avoid injury because of the asymmetry of the consequence.
因此，当我们与人和运动员合作时，我们确实会尽力避免受伤，因为后果是不对称的。
Injury's bad.
伤势不好啊
That's the first part that I wanted to say.
这是我想说的第一部分。
The second part is people train hard, and they feel the muscle burn and they talk about muscle, but they don't talk about their joints.
第二部分是人们努力训练，他们感到肌肉燃烧，他们谈论肌肉，但他们不谈论他们的关节。
And the key to long life is don't mess up your joints.
长寿的关键是不要弄乱你的关节。
You can train hard and build muscle, but muscle is adaptive and resilient.
你可以努力训练并锻炼肌肉，但肌肉具有适应性和弹性。
Joints are not so much.
关节没那么多。
And if you start messing those up when you're younger by training too hard, you'll find that, oh, I was training at this intensity because I wanted to be strong when I'm 70 and 80.
如果你在年轻的时候开始因为训练太刻苦而把这些搞砸了，你会发现，哦，我训练的强度是因为我想在 70 岁和 80 岁的时候变得强壮。
They'll find that no, their knees ache.
他们会发现不，他们的膝盖疼痛。
They can't get down on their knees anymore.
他们不能再跪下。
They have to crawl up a chair or a wall.
他们必须爬上椅子或墙壁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very sad picture.
非常悲伤的画面。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
It is.
是的。
Don't mess up your joints.
别弄乱你的关节。
So that's an overarching principle-
所以这是一个总体原则——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
...
...
of which the spine is one, obviously.
显然，脊柱就是其中之一。
But that's some wisdom with training intensely when you're young.
但这是年轻时进行高强度训练的一些智慧。
Don't base the outcome on muscle.
不要将结果基于肌肉。
Think about the joints.
想想关节。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, it's excellent recommendations for everyone.
不，这对每个人来说都是极好的建议。
His suggestion, and by the way, this is not for competitive athletes, this is just for exercisers, if you will, is to make 85% of one's workouts across the year at about 85% of maximal intensity and output.
顺便说一句，他的建议不是针对竞技运动员，而是针对锻炼者（如果您愿意），即全年 85% 的锻炼以最大强度和输出的 85% 左右进行。
So still constraining the total length of a session to whatever the goal of that session is, whether it's resistance training or cardiovascular training.
因此，无论是阻力训练还是心血管训练，仍然将训练的总长度限制在训练的目标范围内。
But to not go all out, to go at 85% of one's subjective understanding of what all out on that day would be, on that day.
但不要全力以赴，要以自己主观理解的 85% 去全力以赴，那一天会是什么样子。
To make 10% of one's workouts across the year at somewhere between 90 to 95% intensity of what one could generate that day.
全年 10% 的锻炼强度为当天的 90% 到 95% 之间。
Again, 100% all out being subjective for that day.
再说一次，那天的一切都是 100% 主观的。
And then 5% or even less of their workouts all out.
然后他们的训练中只有 5% 甚至更少的人会全力以赴。
Everything you could possibly give, quote unquote, leaving it all on the mat, whatever phrase one prefers.
你所能提供的一切，都一一引用，把它们全部留在垫子上，无论人们喜欢什么短语。
And I like that recommendation because it keeps things in check, and it also creates an awareness of how intense one is training, and it allows us to not let the great night's sleep or the extra cup of coffee that we had or the great song that happens to be playing or the competitive spirit that's arising because someone joined you that day or asked you to join a workout to take you into the domain of harming yourself.
我喜欢这个建议，因为它可以让事情得到控制，它还能让我们意识到训练的强度，它让我们不会让一夜好眠、多喝一杯咖啡、恰好播放的好听歌曲、或者因为那天有人加入你或要求你参加锻炼而导致你陷入伤害自己的境地而产生竞争精神。
In fact, I can look to the times when I've been injured training, and almost always it's because somebody invited me to join their workout, and we got into a little bit of a competitive spirit.
事实上，我可以回顾一下我在训练中受伤的时候，几乎总是因为有人邀请我参加他们的训练，我们陷入了一点竞争精神。
And I'm not an ultra-competitive person, but you push yourself to 100% on that day, and two weeks later, you've got something you're dealing with, or two days later, you've got something and you go, "God, was that really worth it?" And I think unless one is a competitive athlete and that's competition day, it's probably not worth it.
我不是一个超级好胜的人，但是那天你把自己逼到了100%，两周后，你就得到了你正在处理的事情，或者两天后，你得到了一些东西，然后你会想，“上帝，这真的值得吗？”我认为除非一个人是一名竞技运动员并且那天是比赛日，否则可能不值得。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Right.
对。
Well, I'm very sympathetic to the overall sentiment of what you just described, but I think it's much more individual than that.
嗯，我非常同情你刚才描述的整体情绪，但我认为它比这更个人化。
You can take a younger person and drive them quite hard As some trainers do, and they have success.
你可以像一些培训师那样，带一个年轻人并努力地激励他们，他们会取得成功。
A young person responds, they recover faster, et cetera.
年轻人有反应，他们恢复得更快等等。
You try doing that to a 65-year-old, and you'll find that they don't recover as quickly.
你尝试对 65 岁的老人这样做，你会发现他们恢复得没那么快。
They need many more deload and rest days.
他们需要更多的减负和休息日。
So if you go to 85%, you just committed to a five-day rest.
因此，如果您达到 85%，您只需休息 5 天即可。
Well, maybe that's not wise.
嗯，也许这并不明智。
If you went to 50%, you only need one day of rest between.
如果你达到了 50%，那么你只需要休息一天。
So do you see how you play and you optimize this?
那么您了解自己的玩法并对此进行优化吗？
And it's like what we call tapering down an athlete.
这就像我们所说的运动员逐渐减量。
Or, in my life, I have seasons.
或者，在我的生命中，我有季节。
Up until two years ago, I rode snowmobiles hard in the winter.
直到两年前，我还在冬天艰难地骑着雪地摩托。
Two years ago, I hit a rock at 100 miles an hour on a lake.
两年前，我在湖上以每小时 100 英里的速度撞到了一块岩石。
I fractured my spine.
我的脊椎骨骨折了。
You can spot the professor.
你可以认出教授。
So that was my passion.
这就是我的热情所在。
So my training would start in August.
所以我的训练将于八月开始。
Every year, I'd get into shape to ride sleds fairly aggressively.
每年，我都会锻炼身体，积极地骑雪橇。
I couldn't do it all year, Andrew.
我一整年都做不到，安德鲁。
I'd become injured.
我会受伤。
So I would have a cycle of three months getting ready and then really have some fun.
所以我会有三个月的准备周期，然后真正享受一些乐趣。
But obviously, I don't do that anymore.
但显然，我不再这样做了。
But my point in telling that story is, I need much more information than just, okay, 85%.
但我讲述这个故事的目的是，我需要更多的信息，而不仅仅是 85%。
You may get away with that when you're 20 to 25.
当你20到25岁的时候，你可能会摆脱这种情况。
I don't think you're going to get away with that when you're 50, as an example.
举个例子，我认为当你 50 岁的时候，你就不会再这么做了。
As we optimize performance in our clients, sometimes you got to leave a lot of gas in the tank because you want to train every other day.
当我们优化客户的表现时，有时您必须在油箱中留下大量汽油，因为您想每隔一天训练一次。
Certainly, if you do two days in a row, 85%, there's no way.
当然，如果你连续两天做，85%，那是没办法的。
So do you see what I mean?
那么你明白我的意思了吗？
It depends on their age, their injury history, their genetics and their body type and all the rest of it.
这取决于他们的年龄、受伤史、遗传、体型等等。
What are we actually pushing to 85%?
我们实际上要推动什么达到 85%？
Is it a distance on a run?
是跑步时的距离吗？
Is it a deadlift weight?
这是硬拉重量吗？
That's pretty heavy.
那相当重。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, here I'm thinking about intensity, meaning well, for resistance training, let's say that one could complete six repetitions at a given weight, but if they had a gun to their head, they could complete nine.
是的，我在这里考虑的是强度，意思是，对于阻力训练，假设一个人可以在给定的重量下完成六次重复，但如果他们用枪指着他们的头，他们可以完成九次。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Right.
对。
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, then you're doing six.
好吧，那你就做六个。
Again, this is crude calculations, right?
再说一次，这是粗略的计算，对吧？
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But six, maybe seven, maybe cheating a little bit on that seventh repetition.
但是六次，也许七次，也许在第七次重复时有点作弊。
If it's a run, and for me on Sundays, typically, there's a long, slow jog.
如果是跑步，对我来说，周日通常会进行长距离、缓慢的慢跑。
But the slow in that component is a little bit subjective.
但该组件的缓慢有点主观。
So am I pushing a little bit harder than I'm comfortable, or am I hitting kind of a cruising pace?
那么，我是否比自己感到舒适的情况下更加用力了，或者我是否达到了巡航速度？
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so 85% of max intensity for me would be staying at cruising pace and occasionally bumping up the speed a little bit.
好吧，所以对我来说 85% 的最大强度是保持巡航速度，偶尔稍微提高速度。
But on all-out day, if it happens to be one, then it's long, quote-unquote, slow distance, but I'm trying to increase the speed of what I'm referring to as slow.
但在全力以赴的日子里，如果碰巧是一个，那么它是很长的，引用不引用的，缓慢的距离，但我正在努力提高我所说的缓慢的速度。
So again, this is all very subjective.
再说一次，这都是非常主观的。
But we know on a given day whether or not we're pushing past our comfort zone or not.
但我们知道在某一天我们是否超出了我们的舒适区。
And I'm not somebody who relies heavily on heart rate monitors and things like that.
我不是一个严重依赖心率监测器之类的人。
What I rely on is my consistency.
我依靠的是我的一致性。
This is the way that I've decided to stay in all-around shape for more than three decades.
这就是我决定在三十多年来保持全面体形的方式。
I feel like I'm in decent shape.
我觉得我的身材还不错。
I'm not a great athlete.
我不是一个伟大的运动员。
I'll never be the strongest person in the room or have the best endurance or the most speed or explosiveness, but I'm pretty sure I can keep up with most things pretty well, and I don't have pain, and I feel very grateful to not have pain, and I think it's because I've adopted a stance of, I don't want to call it moderation, but of modulation.
我永远不会成为房间里最强壮的人，也不会拥有最好的耐力或最快的速度或爆发力，但我很确定我可以很好地跟上大多数事情，而且我没有痛苦，我很感激没有痛苦，我认为这是因为我采取了一种立场，我不想称之为节制，而是调整。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Well, I appreciate all what you've said.
嗯，我很欣赏你所说的一切。
In my world, everyone has a back pain history.
在我的世界里，每个人都有背痛史。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
It's the information-
这是信息——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting
有趣
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
...
...
that we gather from the assessment that guides our decision on how we're going to, A, get them out of pain, build some base resilience, which is tuning their body, strategic mobility, strategic stability.
我们从评估中收集到的信息，指导我们如何做出决定，A，让他们摆脱痛苦，建立一些基础的弹性，即调整他们的身体、战略机动性、战略稳定性。
Now, one thing we haven't talked about is various types of pain and how yet that impacts on how we're going to approach their programming for life.
现在，我们还没有谈论的一件事是各种类型的痛苦，以及这如何影响我们如何对待他们的生活编程。
You did a podcast with somebody, I can't remember what their name was.
你和某人做了一个播客，我不记得他们的名字了。
But it was a pain podcast, and you were developing this idea that if the mechanism of their pain was really part of the changed engram, they were traumatized at the time of the event, or maybe it was a history of sexual abuse or whatever.
但这是一个疼痛播客，你正在发展这样的想法，如果他们的疼痛机制确实是改变的印迹的一部分，那么他们在事件发生时受到了创伤，或者可能是性虐待的历史或其他什么。
But I can detect that person almost always.
但我几乎总能察觉到那个人。
I'll start to put my hands on them to feel, oh, is there any intel here?
我会开始把手放在它们上，感受一下，哦，这里有什么情报吗？
And they recoil, "Ugh."
他们退缩了，“呃。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
That's an abused person.
那是一个被虐待的人。
That's a very characteristic response.
这是一个非常有特色的回应。
So you start putting together some of these reactions, and you know that there's something deeper than an injury to a part of their spine.
因此，您开始将其中一些反应放在一起，并且您知道还有比脊柱部分受伤更深层的原因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah, we had Dr. Sean Mackey.
是的，我们有肖恩·麦基博士。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
That was it.
就是这样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Sean Mackey is our head of essentially the pain division at Stanford-
肖恩·麦基博士是斯坦福大学疼痛科的负责人——
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
School of Medicine.
医学院。
He's an MD and PhD, and he's a big proponent of the biopsychosocial model of pain, which probably makes sense for us to discuss now.
他是医学博士和博士，也是疼痛生物心理社会模型的大力支持者，我们现在讨论这个模型可能是有意义的。
As the name suggests, it incorporates psychological elements.
顾名思义，它融入了心理元素。
It incorporates, of course, physiological elements, and it points to, as I recall, seven or more sort of paths to dealing with pain, some of which include thoughts about one's emotional state Stress level, sleep.
当然，它包含了生理因素，据我记得，它指出了七种或更多类型的处理疼痛的途径，其中一些包括对一个人的情绪状态、压力水平、睡眠的思考。
All of these things clearly play a role in pain and rehabilitation from pain.
所有这些显然都在疼痛和疼痛康复中发挥着作用。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Right.
对。
I love that podcast, by the way, because it's so consistent with what we've found and what we do.
顺便说一句，我喜欢那个播客，因为它与我们的发现和所做的事情非常一致。
If a person has-- It was just a mechanical exceeding of their tipping point, and they now have some tissue damage.
如果一个人——这只是机械地超过了他们的临界点，他们现在有一些组织损伤。
We address that by creating a strategy that they don't move or load in a way to stress that, and we allow the injury to heal if we can.
我们通过制定一项策略来解决这个问题，即他们不会移动或加载，以强调这一点，并且如果可以的话，我们会允许伤口愈合。
And we should talk about whether the disc adapts or you have to manage it.
我们应该讨论光盘是否适应或者您必须管理它。
But that's another very interesting topic to get into.
但这是另一个非常有趣的话题。
But nonetheless, we are tuning their body with strategic mobility and stability, giving them core exercise, unleashing their hips and shoulders, et cetera.
但尽管如此，我们正在通过战略性的灵活性和稳定性来调整他们的身体，给予他们核心锻炼，释放他们的臀部和肩膀等等。
And we will have a reasonable level of success.
我们将取得一定程度的成功。
And we know, by the way, what our success is, because uniquely, we follow up with every patient we see to know if we were successful or not.
顺便说一句，我们知道我们的成功是什么，因为我们独特地跟踪我们见到的每一位患者，以了解我们是否成功。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
But now we have that person, and I can think of many examples just to give a spectrum.
但现在我们有了那个人，我可以想到很多例子来给出一个范围。
Perhaps the person was in a car accident.
也许这个人出了车祸。
They survived, but the person beside them, who might have been their mother, died.
他们活了下来，但他们身边的人，可能是他们的母亲，死了。
So now they're carrying a hell of a lot of emotional trauma, guilt trauma.
所以现在他们承受着巨大的情感创伤、内疚创伤。
Maybe they nodded off at the time of the accident, they were driving.
也许事故发生时他们正在打瞌睡，他们正在开车。
Tremendous psychological stress.
巨大的心理压力。
Maybe they were sexually abused or whatever.
也许他们受到了性虐待或其他什么。
That rewires their brain.
这会重新连接他们的大脑。
So now they come in, and the pain pattern doesn't fit.
所以现在他们进来了，疼痛模式不适合。
We do physical stressing of their various tissues, and the reactions, they change.
我们对他们的各种组织施加物理压力，他们的反应就会发生变化。
They're variable.
它们是可变的。
They're not what they should be.
他们不是他们应该的样子。
The way that their brain perceives the pain has been rewired.
他们的大脑感知疼痛的方式已经被重新连接。
If we give them the traditional approach of giving them more fitness and ability, it won't work.
如果我们用传统的方法来提高他们的体质和能力，那是行不通的。
We can't break through that maladaptive response.
我们无法突破这种适应不良的反应。
We completely change.
我们彻底改变了。
Now it might be just to desensitize them.
现在可能只是让他们变得不敏感。
You'll laugh at this.
你会笑这个。
We might get a feather and brush it over their back, and they'll say, "Oh, yeah, that triggers my pain." "Really?" "Yes.
我们可能会拿一根羽毛，刷在他们的背上，他们会说，“哦，是的，这会引发我的疼痛。” “真的吗？” “是的。
Oh, now I'm getting a headache." Okay.
哦，我现在头疼了。”好的。
So we have to come up with what can they do without triggering that maladaptive response.
因此，我们必须想出他们能做什么而不引发适应不良反应。
And it might be that.
可能就是这样。
Simply, the most simple of movements, where the afferent and efferents, all the information going into that engram, which is formerly triggering pain, we now figure out what it is that doesn't trigger pain and then slowly desensitize it with repetition, never triggering pain, and then we expand that repertoire.
简单地说，最简单的运动，传入和传出，所有信息进入印迹，以前会引发疼痛，我们现在找出什么不会引发疼痛，然后通过重复慢慢使其不敏感，永远不会引发疼痛，然后我们扩展该曲目。
So you've heard of fibromyalgia, which is a little bit of a catch-all term, but a flashing light, surprising someone.
所以你听说过纤维肌痛，这是一个有点包罗万象的术语，但却是一个闪烁的光芒，让某些人感到惊讶。
They're walking down the street, and someone comes out of a shop and surprises them somehow, and that triggers off this massive pain response.
他们走在街上，有人从商店里走出来，不知何故让他们感到惊讶，这引发了这种巨大的疼痛反应。
We do that with very gentle love, doing the things that doesn't cause pain and try and slowly expand that engram into a pain-free one.
我们怀着非常温柔的爱来做到这一点，做那些不会引起痛苦的事情，并尝试慢慢地将那个印记扩展成一个无痛的印记。
There are those in what's called work hardening.
有一些所谓的加工硬化。
It's usually funded by insurance companies.
它通常由保险公司提供资金。
So if you have intransigent back pain, we are now going to get you to do your job.
因此，如果您有顽固的背痛，我们现在将让您完成您的工作。
We start out with an hour a day.
我们从每天一小时开始。
You're a bricklayer, you're going to lay bricks for an hour.
你是一名瓦工，你要砌一个小时的砖。
Tomorrow, you're going to lay for an hour and a half.
明天，你要躺一个半小时。
And occasionally, they have some success, or they have some really miserable failures.
有时，他们会取得一些成功，或者会经历一些非常悲惨的失败。
And the person says, "I cannot do another day of bricklaying for four hours, even though it's only a portion of my job." And so now they get kicked out of the program because they're called a non-compliant.
这个人说：“我不能再花四个小时砌砖，尽管这只是我工作的一部分。”现在他们被踢出了该计划，因为他们被称为不合规者。
In other words, there's something psychological wrong with them, and they're shattered.
换句话说，他们的心理出了问题，他们崩溃了。
Those are the people we see.
这些就是我们看到的人。
Talk about the biopsychosocial approach.
谈论生物心理社会方法。
I know I get labeled sometimes as the biomechanist, and I ignore all the psychosocial, but these are people who've never read our work, and they don't know it.
我知道我有时会被贴上生物力学专家的标签，而我忽略了所有的心理社会因素，但这些人从未读过我们的作品，他们也不知道。
So I really appreciate you bringing this because I'm not often asked this perspective.
所以我真的很感谢你带来这个，因为我很少被问到这个观点。
But again, I know with your background, you'll appreciate all of this.
但同样，我知道以你的背景，你会欣赏这一切。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Surely, the nervous system is involved in generating movement and feedback from the muscles and proprioception.
当然，神经系统参与产生肌肉和本体感觉的运动和反馈。
And as you're describing, the nervous system creates our sense of pain.
正如你所描述的，神经系统创造了我们的疼痛感。
There's an emotional component to it, as Dr. Mackey pointed out and as you're reinforcing.
正如麦基博士所指出的，正如你所强调的那样，其中有情感因素。
And the neural circuits that control "pain" or give rise to pain involve the confluence of all of these things at some level.
控制“疼痛”或引起疼痛的神经回路在某种程度上涉及所有这些事物的汇合。
And I appreciate that you're willing to go into this biopsychosocial model of pain and acknowledge it because I think all too often in this space of biomechanics and pain, and back pain in particular, people, you in some cases, get labeled as Only subscribing to one particular pattern of remedy or one particular framework, and that's simply not true.
我很欣赏你愿意进入这种疼痛的生物心理社会模型并承认它，因为我认为在生物力学和疼痛，特别是背痛这个领域，人们，在某些情况下，你经常被贴上“只接受一种特定的治疗模式或一种特定的框架”的标签，而这根本不是真的。
It's just not true.
这不是真的。
In fact, I'll go so far as to say that that's actually a reflection of other people placing a singular lens on you and your work as opposed to your work having a singular lens.
事实上，我什至可以说，这实际上反映了其他人对你和你的作品使用单一的视角，而不是你的作品有单一的视角。
I know that you look at things through the rather complex prism that is back pain and back rehabilitation.
我知道您会通过相当复杂的棱镜来看待事物，即背痛和背部康复。
So thank you for touching into the biopsychosocial model, and we'll put a link in the show note captions to that episode with Dr. Mackey, because he went into this in some depth, and so it is the case that we've covered that model in pretty extensive detail.
因此，感谢您接触生物心理社会模型，我们将在麦基博士的那一集的节目注释标题中放置一个链接，因为他对此进行了一定的深入研究，因此我们已经非常详细地介绍了该模型。
There's something that you said to me once that I really want to make sure we highlight, which is that people who embark on a particular style of training, not just sport selection, but style of training, like resistance training with heavier weights versus endurance training, running longer distances or swimming longer distances, will sometimes cultivate a certain, should we call it personality style or reactivity style that is probably independent of who they started off as.
你曾经对我说过一些话，我真的想确保我们强调，那就是，那些开始某种特定训练风格的人，不仅仅是运动选择，还有训练风格，比如大重量的阻力训练与耐力训练、长距离跑步或游泳更长的距离，有时会培养出某种可能与他们一开始的身份无关的个性风格或反应风格。
You can never separate these things completely.
你永远无法将这些东西完全分开。
We could argue people who have a lot of mental endurance pick endurance sports, or people that are rather ballistic in their personality, here I'm playing psychologist, pick sports with a lot of speed and ballistic motion involved.
我们可以说，那些有很强的心理耐力的人会选择耐力运动，或者性格上比较暴躁的人，在这里我扮演心理学家，选择涉及大量速度和弹道运动的运动。
But perhaps the reverse is also true, that the more we engage in activities for which the nervous system is required to generate a particular pattern of movement, like ballistic movement or endurance or strength, that we exacerbate certain aspects of our mental self, our emotional self as well.
但也许反过来也是如此，我们参与的活动越多，需要神经系统产生特定的运动模式，比如弹道运动、耐力或力量，我们的精神自我和情感自我的某些方面就会加剧。
I realize this is not the stuff of detailed peer-reviewed studies necessarily, or at least I'm not aware of them.
我意识到这不一定是详细的同行评审研究的内容，或者至少我不知道它们。
But in your experience, working with a variety of different people from the general population who engage in different activities as well as athletes who engage in very different activities.
但根据您的经验，与从事不同活动的普通人群以及从事截然不同活动的运动员一起工作。
And let's keep in mind the discussion we had earlier about dog breeds.
让我们记住我们之前关于狗品种的讨论。
They are selected for not just based on physical phenotype and movement, but also personality type, temperament.
他们的选择不仅基于身体表型和动作，还基于性格类型、气质。
What sort of broad correlations have you observed in, say, endurance runners?
例如，您在耐力跑运动员身上观察到了哪些广泛的相关性？
Do they have more mental endurance for other activities versus, say, strength athletes or sprinters?
与力量运动员或短跑运动员相比，他们对其他活动的心理承受能力是否更强？
Do they tend to have less but tend to excel in other domains of their mental life?
他们是否往往拥有的东西较少，但在精神生活的其他领域却表现出色？
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
You're right in that I haven't seen good science to back up this whole issue.
你是对的，我还没有看到好的科学来支持整个问题。
But after working with people for 40 years and seeing the extremes of the phenotype, I do have some opinions on this, and it comes from coaching.
但在与人们一起工作了 40 年并看到了表型的极端之后，我对此确实有一些看法，而这些看法来自于辅导。
So if you take an athlete who has, by nature, they're very explosive neurologically.
因此，如果你选择一位天生具有神经爆发力的运动员。
They're quick, they're explosive, but they can't do it for very long.
他们速度快，爆发力强，但他们不能坚持很长时间。
It's almost, and I hate using this label, but it's just a way to describe it.
差不多了，我讨厌用这个标签，但这只是描述它的一种方式。
They have attention deficit.
他们有注意力缺陷。
Now, I've been told I have this.
现在，有人告诉我我有这个。
Every high school teacher would have told you, "Yeah, McGill, he's attention deficit is..." Now, maybe it was just I wasn't interested in what they were talking about.
每个高中老师都会告诉你，“是的，麦吉尔，他的注意力缺陷是……”现在，也许只是我对他们谈论的内容不感兴趣。
My brain was thinking about something else.
我的大脑正在思考别的事情。
But I think I do have a certain degree of attention deficits.
但我认为我确实存在一定程度的注意力缺陷。
If someone's not holding my attention, I'm thinking of something that's more important.
如果有人没有引起我的注意，我就会想到更重要的事情。
The more explosive the athlete is, the shorter the time you have to coach them, that they're present with you.
运动员的爆发力越强，你指导他们的时间就越短，他们在你身边的时间就越短。
The less explosive they are, the more time you have to coach them.
他们的爆发力越小，你指导他们的时间就越多。
So I will say that.
所以我会这么说。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I find that really interesting.
我觉得这真的很有趣。
And I can think of a number of self-experiments that I'd like to embark on of including more endurance training at particular times of year and seeing how that correlates with mental focus and endurance for, say, writing or preparing podcasts, things of that sort.
我可以想到一些我想要开始的自我实验，包括在一年中的特定时间进行更多的耐力训练，看看这与精神集中和耐力有何关系，例如，写作或准备播客之类的事情。
But of course, now that I have some sense of what the answer could be, I'd be biasing the outcomes.
但当然，既然我对答案可能是什么有了一定的了解，我就会对结果产生偏见。
But if it's a self-experiment and the goal is simply to shift one's mental life or behavior, then I don't know that it matters that much.
但如果这是一个自我实验，目标只是改变一个人的精神生活或行为，那么我不知道它有那么重要。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Can I go with a little anecdote there that-
我可以讲一个小轶事吗——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Please
请
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
...
...
you may appreciate?
你可能会欣赏吗？
I'll get a call from a coach, say, an NBA coach, and it'll be with their medical staff, and they'll say, "We have this player.
我会接到教练的电话，比如 NBA 教练，他们的医务人员会打来电话，他们会说：“我们有这名球员。
They play 18 minutes a game.
他们每场比赛打18分钟。
And they have a back pain history.
他们有背痛史。
Could you help us to get them to play 27 minutes a game?" And then I'll investigate and understand the player.
你能帮助我们让他们每场比赛打27分钟吗？”然后我会调查并了解玩家。
And then I may ask a question to the coach, "What puts paying bums in the seats in the stadium?" And they'll say, "Well, what do you mean?" And I said, "Well, it's that player that we're talking about.
然后我可能会问教练一个问题：“是什么让付费流浪汉坐在体育场的座位上？”他们会说：“好吧，你是什么意思？”我说：“好吧，我们正在谈论的就是那个球员。
That player is magical for the 18 minutes that they play because they're sparky, they're explosive.
这名球员在 18 分钟的比赛中非常神奇，因为他们充满活力，充满爆发力。
If we train them, and they have a plastic physiology and neurology that we can train so that they can last 27 minutes, you realize that you're trading off the explosiveness.
如果我们训练它们，并且我们可以训练它们的可塑性生理学和神经学，使它们能够持续 27 分钟，你就会意识到你正在权衡爆发力。
You cannot have a really high VO2 max and be maximally explosive.
你不可能拥有非常高的最大摄氧量并具有最大的爆发力。
They're competing mechanisms.
它们是竞争机制。
One's a fast twitch mechanism for speed and explosiveness, and the other one is an endurable physiology, and you trade one for the other.
一种是速度和爆发力的快速抽动机制，另一种是持久的生理机制，你可以用一种来交换另一种。
So do you really want to compromise that explosiveness And you see this when you're on a team getting a combat athlete ready.
那么你真的想牺牲爆发力吗？当你在一个团队中为格斗运动员做好准备时，你就会看到这一点。
If they are neurologically explosive, you design the fight and the training that they pretty much have to win in the first round.
如果他们的神经系统爆炸，你就可以设计他们必须在第一轮获胜的战斗和训练。
And if they don't win in the first round, they're going to gas out.
如果他们在第一轮没有获胜，他们就会精疲力尽。
And the person who is preparing to compete against them is training to survive the first round and then come on in the second.
准备与他们竞争的人正在训练以度过第一轮，然后在第二轮上场。
So they're training endurance.
所以他们正在训练耐力。
To compare those two different athletes from a psychological point of view, and if you do it enough, I think you'll come to agree with me, and you will notice that there is how you coach them.
从心理学的角度来比较这两位不同的运动员，如果你做得足够多，我想你会同意我的观点，你会注意到你是如何指导他们的。
It has to be in short, consumable bites.
它必须是简短的、消耗性的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
And it's not that they're any more or less intelligent.
这并不是说他们更聪明或更不聪明。
They get it.
他们明白了。
But you have to be on cue and choose your words, be efficient.
但你必须听从提示并选择你的措辞，保持高效。
Do you see what I mean?
你明白我的意思吗？
The coaching style changes quite a bit.
教练风格发生了很大变化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you think that if somebody has pain, that they should have the capacity both to lean into and push into the pain, not exacerbate it, but to sit with it and feel it as opposed to just avoiding it?
你是否认为如果一个人有疼痛，他们应该有能力去面对和推动疼痛，而不是加剧疼痛，而是坐下来感受它，而不是仅仅避免它？
How should people think about their own pain and how to work with it?
人们应该如何思考自己的痛苦以及如何应对它？
That's the reason I'm asking.
这就是我问的原因。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Right.
对。
It depends.
这取决于。
And it's a dance.
这是一场舞蹈。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
So I can give you some examples.
所以我可以给你一些例子。
One chapter in my "Back Mechanic" book is called, well, it's about surgery and should you have surgery.
我的《背部机械师》一书中有一章叫做，嗯，这是关于手术以及你是否应该接受手术的内容。
We did this because, as you know, in our experimental clinic at the university, we followed up with every patient we ever saw.
我们这样做是因为，如您所知，在我们大学的实验诊所中，我们对见过的每一位患者进行了随访。
We would assess them, and then we would sub-categorize them into different bins.
我们会对它们进行评估，然后将它们细分到不同的类别中。
If a person was told, "You've tried everything.
如果一个人被告知：“你已经尝试了一切。
You've been to the chiropractor, you've been to the physical therapist, the osteopath, you've had a surgical consult, you've been to the psychologist, et cetera, and you failed every single one of them." So basically, you've been conditioned to fail.
你看过脊椎按摩师、物理治疗师、整骨医生、外科咨询、心理学家等等，但你都失败了。”所以基本上，你已经习惯了失败。
We tried a process called virtual surgery.
我们尝试了一种称为虚拟手术的过程。
So I'm defining the group now.
所以我现在正在定义该组。
You've tried everything and you've been told the last thing for you is surgery.
你已经尝试了一切，但你被告知最后一件事就是手术。
That's the subcategory of people that we're now going to talk about.
这就是我们现在要讨论的人的子类别。
And I'll say, "Fine, you can go and roll the dice and have surgery." Most of them don't want it, obviously.
我会说，“好吧，你可以去掷骰子做手术了。”显然，他们中的大多数人不想要它。
And I'll say, "But what we're going to do is try virtual surgery." And I make a bit of a production out of it.
我会说，“但我们要做的是尝试虚拟手术。”我用它做了一些制作。
I anoint them like a knight.
我像骑士一样膏抹他们。
I touch them on the shoulder and I say, "That's your surgery." And I'm looking into their eyes, and now I give them one of these.
我触碰他们的肩膀，说道：“这就是你的手术。”我看着他们的眼睛，现在我给了他们其中的一只。
We're looking into each other's soul now.
我们现在正在审视彼此的灵魂。
You've had surgery.
你已经做过手术了。
You're going to behave like you've had surgery.
你会表现得像刚做过手术一样。
Tomorrow, your first post-surgical recovery day, you're going to lay in bed, relax, get up for a pee every two or three hours, have short little shuffles.
明天，手术后恢复的第一天，您将躺在床上，放松，每两三个小时起床小便一次，进行短暂的小洗牌。
The next day, we'll add a little bit more, et cetera.
第二天，我们将添加更多内容，等等。
We give you a post-surgical recovery program, a really good one.
我们为您提供一个非常好的术后恢复计划。
And then we start tuning the body strategically, stability, mobility, eventually adding a little bit of endurance long before strength, and then getting the movement patterns, et cetera.
然后我们开始战略性地调整身体、稳定性、灵活性，最终在力量之前增加一点耐力，然后获得运动模式，等等。
If the person was an exercise addict as well, so you can imagine the person who has the personality that you're describing.
如果这个人也是一个运动成瘾者，那么你可以想象这个人具有你所描述的性格。
They tell me in the interview, "You know, I have to ride the elliptical for 40 minutes every day, because if I don't, I'm going to murder my kids and my husband because that's my stress relief."
他们在采访中告诉我，“你知道，我每天必须骑 40 分钟椭圆机，因为如果我不这样做，我就会谋杀我的孩子和我的丈夫，因为这是我缓解压力的方法。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, my goodness.
哦，天哪。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Not literally, but that's what-
不是字面上的意思，但就是这样——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure
当然可以
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
...
...
they'll say as painting the picture.
他们会说“画画”。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Give that person a treadmill.
给那个人一台跑步机。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Or exercise bike.
或者健身自行车。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Okay.
好的。
So they've won that negotiation with every previous clinician.
所以他们赢得了与之前所有临床医生的谈判。
Well, they're not going to win it with me because all I care about is outcome.
好吧，他们不会和我一起赢得比赛，因为我只关心结果。
My job is to get them better by whatever means.
我的工作是通过任何方式让他们变得更好。
So I have to tame that.
所以我必须驯服它。
Surgery works in a lot of cases because it's forced rest.
手术在很多情况下都有效，因为它是强制休息。
Surgery for that exercise addict forced them to have rest and allowed them to desensitize.
那个运动成瘾者的手术迫使他们休息并让他们脱敏。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
So we fake it and we do it.
所以我们假装它并做到了。
Now for the evidence.
现在来看证据。
We followed up with every patient, and in a two-year follow-up, 95% of those people who avoided surgery but did the virtual surgery were glad that they did.
我们对每位患者进行了随访，在两年的随访中，95% 避免手术但进行虚拟手术的患者很高兴自己做了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, that answers the question.
是的，这回答了问题。
It's follow the advice of the clinician.
这是遵循临床医生的建议。
And it gets back to this issue of predisposition to move a certain way to therefore avoid other forms of movement, to engage in certain activities but not other activities.
这又回到了倾向以某种方式移动以避免其他形式的移动、从事某些活动而不是其他活动的问题。
I realize that I'll get in trouble if I say 70% of the training that we do should be in line with our predisposition and 30% should be-
我意识到，如果我说我们所做的训练中 70% 应该符合我们的倾向，而 30% 应该是——
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
counter current to that.
与此相反。
But I'm kind of veering towards numbers more or less like that, right?
但我或多或少倾向于类似的数字，对吧？
We know, for instance, in the machine learning algorithms that relate to learning in the nervous system, that a rough, this is a rough estimate of difficulty, should be about 15% of questions or challenges, so these could be cognitive challenges or physical challenges, should lead to failures, non-injurious failures, right?
例如，我们知道，在与神经系统学习相关的机器学习算法中，粗略地（这是对难度的粗略估计）应该占问题或挑战的 15％ 左右，因此这些可能是认知挑战或身体挑战，应该导致失败，非伤害性失败，对吗？
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Getting the answer wrong about 15% of the time tends to optimize learning across a number of different domains.
大约 15% 的情况下回答错误往往会优化多个不同领域的学习。
Okay.
好的。
Is that true for everything?
一切都是如此吗？
Is it true for language, math, dance?
语言、数学、舞蹈也是如此吗？
No, but it's true for a lot of things.
不，但对于很多事情来说都是如此。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
That's an argument that's used a lot.
这是一个经常使用的论点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
However As I said, I've done the work and I've done the follow-up, and I have an opinion for a reason.
然而，正如我所说，我已经完成了工作并完成了后续工作，我有一个意见是有原因的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
We start out by giving them the tools to not have pain.
我们首先为他们提供摆脱痛苦的工具。
From a physical point of view, that's really important.
从物理角度来看，这非常重要。
From a psychological point of view, we've just empowered that person.
从心理学的角度来看，我们只是赋予了那个人权力。
They are now in control because they never had the tools.
他们现在掌握了控制权，因为他们从来没有工具。
A, they didn't understand what the real mechanism of pain was, so they had no strategy to down-regulate it, if I'm a neuroscientist, or to desensitize it.
答，他们不明白疼痛的真正机制是什么，所以他们没有策略来下调疼痛（如果我是神经科学家的话）或使其脱敏。
But now they know with some precision what the moves, the loads, the activities are that cause their pain.
但现在他们已经相当精确地知道是什么运动、负荷、活动导致了他们的疼痛。
They know the counterpoints, what actually are beneficial for their pain.
他们知道对立点，知道什么实际上对他们的痛苦有益。
And they begin this life of having as little pain as possible.
他们开始了尽可能少痛苦的生活。
Now, I go back to the tipping point, and all systems need stress.
现在，我回到临界点，所有系统都需要压力。
But in the beginning, we cannot cross the tipping point.
但一开始，我们无法跨越临界点。
And that's really the essence of your question.
这确实是你问题的本质。
When do we start pushing them now to allow a little bit of pain?
我们什么时候开始推动它们以允许一点点疼痛？
Some people start it way too early.
有些人开始得太早了。
We do not.
我们没有。
We know where that tipping point is, and we keep building the training capacity of being pain-free until we have a margin of safety.
我们知道那个临界点在哪里，并且我们不断建立无痛训练能力，直到我们有安全边际。
Now, it's that margin of safety that we start to play with.
现在，我们开始考虑的是安全边际。
Can we expand the volume of training and get them ready to go back to work, or to go back to their sport?
我们能否扩大训练量，让他们为重返工作岗位或重返运动做好准备？
Or maybe they just want to play recreational golf.
或者也许他们只是想打休闲高尔夫。
We've talked about that.
我们已经讨论过了。
Eventually, we're going to go to the point where we're butting up against the tipping point now.
最终，我们将到达现在面临的临界点。
Now we have another conversation.
现在我们再进行一次对话。
Remember what the goal is.
记住目标是什么。
How important is it for you to set a personal best in deadlift or to play 18 holes of golf five days a week?
创造硬拉个人最佳成绩或每周 5 天打 18 洞高尔夫球对您来说有多重要？
Would you settle for three?
你愿意接受三个吗？
And now they've had a year of no pain.
现在他们已经度过了没有痛苦的一年。
Their life has changed.
他们的生活改变了。
They're mentally in a different place.
他们在精神上处于不同的位置。
They have their answer, and they converged on it themselves.
他们有自己的答案，而且他们自己也集中在这个答案上。
"I'm not 18.
“我还不到18岁。
I'm 55 years of age.
我今年 55 岁。
I've got two young grandkids.
我有两个年幼的孙子。
I'm looking forward to playing golf with them when I'm 75." So do you see how when we bring them through that way, accepting a certain amount of pain, that's more of a younger person's outlook.
我期待着 75 岁的时候能和他们一起打高尔夫球。”所以你看到了吗，当我们带着他们走这条路，接受一定程度的痛苦时，这更像是年轻人的观点。
There's still some warriors left.
还剩下一些战士。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
A lot of us soften up as we get older.
随着年龄的增长，我们很多人都会变得软化。
But I just think of my own journey.
但我只想到我自己的旅程。
I trained heavy as a kid, and I remember my dad saying, "Well, why are you doing this?
我小时候训练得很重，我记得我爸爸说：“好吧，你为什么要这样做？
You're really shortening your athletic career." Not that I had one.
你确实缩短了你的运动生涯。”并不是说我有这样的经历。
And he was right.
他是对的。
And now my training has totally changed.
现在我的训练完全改变了。
But as you know, I have no pain.
但如你所知，我没有痛苦。
I'm still fairly physical.
我的身体素质还是不错的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, you're in great shape at 67.
是的，你67岁了，身体状况很好。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just remarkable shape.
只是形状非凡。
For those listening and not watching, I encourage you to take a look at the top card or the YouTube video.
对于那些听而不看的人，我鼓励您看一下顶部的卡片或 YouTube 视频。
Stu moves around great and- ...
斯图到处走动，而且-...
well, your posture's great, and you're in awesome shape for any age, much less 67.
嗯，你的姿势很好，而且对于任何年龄的人来说，你的身材都很棒，更不用说 67 岁了。
So that's a testament to your methods.
这证明了你的方法。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Well, the point was, it's okay to push when you're younger.
嗯，重点是，年轻的时候努力一点是可以的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
You don't have the capacity to push now.
你现在没有能力去推动。
If I go into pain, I'm in pain for a few days.
如果我感到疼痛，我会疼痛几天。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Not an hour.
不到一个小时。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you're cautious.
所以你很谨慎。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And older people will get to that point.
老年人会达到这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to ask you about McGill's Big Three.
我想问你关于麦吉尔三巨头的事。
I know that, again, you loathe to impart generalizations on people.
我再次知道，您讨厌对人们进行概括。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But at some point, you realized that people need something to do, to work with, in order to try and quote, unquote, "pain-proof their back or reinforce their back." So we did a video that included the Big Three.
但在某些时候，你意识到人们需要一些事情来做，一起工作，以便尝试引用或取消引用“防止他们的背部疼痛或加固他们的背部”。所以我们制作了一个包含三巨头的视频。
We'll provide a link to those in the show note captions, where I perform the Big Three, probably not perfectly, admittedly.
我们将提供一个链接到演出笔记标题中的链接，我在那里表演三巨头，诚然，可能并不完美。
I should've invited you to critique my form, and we can always shoot another one of those.
我应该邀请你批评我的表现，我们随时可以再拍一张。
But I think it captures the Big Three well enough.
但我认为它很好地捕捉了三巨头的情况。
The bird dog, the roll-up, and the side plank.
鸟狗式、卷起式和侧板式。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Designed to build strength and stability around the spine and to stave off back pain, or in some cases, rehabilitate back pain.
旨在增强脊柱周围的力量和稳定性，并避免背部疼痛，或者在某些情况下，恢复背部疼痛。
An enormous number of people wrote to us and commented how much the Big Three have helped them.
很多人写信给我们并评论了三巨头对他们的帮助。
So I just want to make sure that it's clear that despite the fact that you are appropriately reluctant to say that the Big Three is the solution to everything, in terms of back pain for everyone, they have helped a large, large number of people avoid, and in some cases, rehabilitate back pain.
所以我只是想确保清楚的是，尽管你不太愿意说三巨头是解决一切问题的方法，但就每个人的背痛而言，他们已经帮助大量的人避免了背痛，在某些情况下还帮助他们康复。
If you were to add a fourth exercise to the Big Three, what would it be?
如果你要在三巨头中添加第四个练习，它会是什么？
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
It depends on the assessment.
这取决于评估。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's say somebody has a willowy spine and they want more spine stability.
假设某人的脊柱柔弱，他们想要脊柱更加稳定。
They want to be able to generate more spine rigidity, for whatever purpose.
无论出于什么目的，他们都希望能够产生更多的脊柱刚度。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
What are their pain triggers?
他们的疼痛触发因素是什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They have a lower back pain that's unilateral, and when they sit too long and then stand up, it feels like that side is locked up and there's some pain shooting down the leg.
他们的腰部疼痛是单侧的，当他们坐得太久然后站起来时，感觉那一侧被锁住了，腿部会感到一些疼痛。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Okay, so they've got mechanical back pain.
好吧，所以他们有机械性背痛。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
They've got neurological involvement if it's shooting down the leg.
如果是从腿上射下来的话，他们就会受到神经系统的影响。
How old are they?
他们几岁了？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Early 50s, maybe in their 40s, or older.
50岁出头，也许40多岁，或更老。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a big range.
这是一个很大的范围。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
So they will have some discogenic disorder.
所以他们会有一些椎间盘源性疾病。
There's a disorder of the joint, and it will be causing the nerve to react-
关节有毛病，会导致神经反应——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
...
...
in such a way.
以这样的方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And when they walk a bit, 10, 15 minutes, they tend to feel better.
当他们步行一点（10、15 分钟）时，他们往往会感觉更好。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Ah, okay.
啊，好吧。
So they have a younger spine because discogenic disorders are more common among younger people, and sitting is the causative pathway going for a walk is the relieving pathway, but that will switch over when they get older.
所以他们的脊柱更年轻，因为椎间盘源性疾病在年轻人中更常见，久坐是致病途径，散步是缓解途径，但随着年龄的增长，这种情况就会发生转变。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Sitting becomes the relief and walking then becomes the exacerbator of their pain.
坐着可以缓解疼痛，而行走则加剧疼痛。
Well, again, I need to know with some precision what the pathway is.
好吧，再说一次，我需要精确地知道这条路是什么。
But if they have neurological parts, I need to know why, what makes them worse.
但如果他们有神经系统的部分，我需要知道为什么，是什么让他们变得更糟。
So I might have them sit upright in a chair, grab the seat pan of the chair, and pull up.
所以我可能会让他们直立坐在椅子上，抓住椅子的座盘，然后拉起来。
I'm adding compression.
我正在添加压缩。
Does that cause more nerve radiation?
这会导致更多的神经辐射吗？
If it does, they've got a little bit of compression intolerance.
如果是这样，他们就有一点压缩不耐受性。
Okay, so now I have to choose an exercise that is not compressive by nature.
好吧，现在我必须选择一种本质上不具有压缩性的练习。
If I move the nerve, so if I extend their leg, at the same time, I ask them to look up.
如果我动了神经，如果我伸展他们的腿，同时我会要求他们抬头。
It releases the whole spinal cord and all the nerve roots from above, and it pulls it from below.
它从上方释放整个脊髓和所有神经根，并从下方拉动它。
In other words, it flosses it through.
换句话说，它会用牙线将其清除。
If that causes pain as they're doing it, they've got nerve friction.
如果他们这样做时引起疼痛，则说明他们的神经受到了摩擦。
If they do it and it's tensile tension, then it's nerve tension.
如果他们这样做并且是紧张，那么就是神经紧张。
So these are very different-
所以这些是非常不同的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
...
...
mechanisms of their pain, and they require different approaches.
他们的疼痛机制，他们需要不同的方法。
So do you see why I'm still hedging on-
所以你明白为什么我还在对冲-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
...
...
that next exercise?
下一个练习？
It might be mobilizing the nerve.
这可能会调动神经。
It might be giving them more thoracic spine extension through a thoracic.
这可能会让他们的胸椎通过胸椎得到更多的伸展。
And now they've taken the load off when they sit and stand.
现在，当他们坐着或站着时，他们已经减轻了负担。
So you can imagine standing, you can palpate your erector spinae muscles, and they might be relaxed.
所以你可以想象站立时，你可以触诊你的竖脊肌，它们可能会放松。
You poke your chin, and those muscles come on.
你戳一下下巴，那些肌肉就会活动起来。
But the cramp was on one side, and if it was muscular, that's probably not related to this.
但抽筋是在一侧，如果是肌肉发达，那可能与此无关。
That's still a very discogenic sign.
这仍然是一个非常令人不安的迹象。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
There's a bulge or there's something off that's mechanical that we will determine.
是否有凸起或者有什么机械性的东西脱落，我们将确定。
I might just say, "Walk more."
我可能会说：“多走走。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
But not in a single dose.
但不是单剂量。
And again, I've described all of this in "Back Mechanic." Instead of walking an hour in one dose, have three 20-minute walks.
再说一次，我在“背部机械师”中描述了所有这些。不要一次性步行一小时，而是进行 3 次 20 分钟的步行。
Walking for an hour increase the risk of getting pain.
步行一小时会增加疼痛的风险。
Walking for 20 minutes, guaranteed you have no pain.
步行20分钟，保证您无痛。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
So do it in three doses, you've just guaranteed success.
所以分三剂就可以保证成功。
So I might add another exercise, but I might program it very strategically as well.
所以我可能会添加另一个练习，但我也可能会非常有策略地对其进行编程。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What are your thoughts on inversion tables and anti-gravity boots, and things to deload the spine?
您对倒立台、反重力靴以及减轻脊柱负担的东西有何看法？
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Right.
对。
Well, again, if you follow our work, we do deloading of the spine through traction.
好吧，再说一次，如果你关注我们的工作，我们会通过牵引来减轻脊柱的负荷。
It's usually applied by one of our trained clinicians.
它通常由我们训练有素的临床医生之一应用。
And the reason for that is, let's take that younger person again, as you just described, maybe laying on their tummy.
原因是，让我们再次以那个年轻人为例，正如您刚才所描述的，也许是趴着的。
As they exhale, they allow the low back to sink into the table, increasing the lordosis, which is, we measured this in the lab, if they have a posterior disc bulge with an open fissure, which is probably one of the more common ones, that maneuver vacuums in the disc bulge.
当他们呼气时，他们会让腰部下沉到桌子上，增加脊柱前凸，也就是说，我们在实验室中测量了这一点，如果他们有一个带有开放裂隙的后椎间盘突出，这可能是更常见的裂隙之一，在椎间盘突出处操纵真空。
If that immediately reduces the pain down their leg, I would say lay prone and have someone pull on your legs along the plane of the table, five or six pounds per leg.
如果这立即减轻了他们腿部的疼痛，我会说躺下并让人沿着桌子平面拉动你的腿，每条腿五到六磅。
Now, the next person comes in and say, "Oh, that hurts." Well, now we play what we call jazz.
现在，下一个人进来说：“哦，那很痛。”好吧，现在我们演奏所谓的爵士乐。
This is the art of therapy.
这就是治疗的艺术。
I'm playing with how we're going to apply a twisting torque to their feet.
我正在考虑如何向他们的脚施加扭转扭矩。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
No decompression table does all of this.
没有减压表可以完成这一切。
It doesn't have the art.
它没有艺术。
It's more of a brutal hammer.
它更像是一把残酷的锤子。
And to really get difficult people, because remember, no one has back pain and says, "Oh, I think I'll go see McGill." It doesn't work that way.
要真正找到难相处的人，因为记住，没有人会因为背痛而说：“哦，我想我要去看看麦吉尔。”事实并非如此。
We only get the ones who've failed 10 previous attempts.
我们只收集之前 10 次尝试失败的人。
The difficult ones.
那些困难的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Gone and tried every other-
走了并尝试了其他所有 -
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
every other treatment.
所有其他治疗。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
No. Well, we've got to have some skills here.
不，好吧，我们必须有一些技能。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I started doing the big three on the basis of your book, and it certainly has helped my lower right-side back pain that occasionally flares up.
嗯，我根据你的书开始做三大动作，它确实帮助了我偶尔发作的右下背部疼痛。
I also notice I've gotten stronger in various lifts, but the most salient consequence has been when I run, I feel like my torso can stay more upright as I can cycle my legs underneath me, like I'm pedaling on a bike, and I feel like I have endurance for days.
我还注意到我在各种举重中变得更强壮，但最显着的结果是当我跑步时，我觉得我的躯干可以保持更直立，因为我可以在我下面骑自行车，就像我在骑自行车一样，而且我感觉我有几天的耐力。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
That's exactly what you should feel.
这正是你应该感受到的。
So you've improved the cylinder.
所以你改进了气缸。
So the diaphragm pumps up and down inside the cylinder to allow you to lung ventilate.
因此，隔膜在气缸内上下泵送，让您进行肺部换气。
If you don't have that athletic diaphragm, you're in training your abdominal muscles, the oblique muscles, to the breathing effort while you're running.
如果你没有运动隔膜，那么你就需要在跑步时训练腹部肌肉、腹斜肌和呼吸努力。
It wears you out.
它会让你疲惫不堪。
It also compromises your spine.
它还会损害您的脊柱。
So you need those muscles to form a girdle and hold it all together.
所以你需要这些肌肉来形成腰带并将其固定在一起。
Now, I know enough of your history that I suspect you will have a little bit of a disc bulge now.
现在，我对你的病史了解得够多了，我怀疑你现在椎间盘有点凸出。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I do, yeah.
我愿意，是的。
I had a whole-body scan-
我做了全身扫描——
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for fun.
为了好玩。
I guess this is the sort of thing I do for fun.
我想这就是我为了好玩而做的事情。
And indeed, there's, I think it's like an L3, L4 bulge on one side, which is fully consistent with the pattern of pain that I've had.
事实上，我认为一侧有 L3、L4 隆起，这与我所经历的疼痛模式完全一致。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I've managed to avoid for a number of years now, doing cobra type pose.
多年来我一直设法避免做眼镜蛇式姿势。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
These kinds of things.
诸如此类的事情。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
The cobra doesn't work for everybody, but it is a powerful vacuuming in of certain types of disc bulges.
眼镜蛇并不适合所有人，但它可以有效吸除某些类型的椎间盘突出。
So I'm glad it works for you, and you found it.
所以我很高兴它对你有用，而且你找到了它。
And it will work for some others, or it will make the pain worse in some others.
它会对其他一些人有效，或者会让其他一些人的痛苦变得更严重。
And there's tests for figuring that out.
并且有测试可以解决这个问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I notice if I travel and it forces me to sit for long periods of time, and then the next day, I train with any kind of hip hinge movement, it flares up again.
我注意到，如果我旅行，它会迫使我长时间坐着，然后第二天，我进行任何类型的髋关节铰链运动训练时，它会再次爆发。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Right.
对。
Don't forget to use your Lumbar on the airplane.
不要忘记在飞机上使用您的腰椎。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right, yes.
对，是的。
Dr. McGill gave me this little pillow called Lumbar that inflates.
麦吉尔医生给了我一个叫做 Lumbar 的小枕头，它可以充气。
You put it in your lower back, and it's a wonderful tool.
你把它放在你的下背部，它是一个很棒的工具。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Right.
对。
That gives you resilience for travel.
这使您能够适应旅行。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If one didn't have access to that, then they could just roll up a towel and put it in their lower back.
如果一个人无法接触到它，那么他们可以卷起一条毛巾并将其放在下背部。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Yeah, or sitting in a lecture.
是的，或者坐在讲座中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
If they're a student, travel with it.
如果他们是学生，就带着它去旅行。
Sitting in a restaurant, people who go and say, "Oh, my back's killing me," after sitting in that booth in the restaurant.
坐在餐厅里，人们在坐在餐厅的那个摊位后会说：“哦，我的背痛死了我。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You might get some funny looks, but you'll be the person still mobile and not complaining about your pain when everyone else is grunting and-
你可能会得到一些有趣的表情，但你会是那个仍然活动的人，当其他人都在咕哝时，你不会抱怨你的痛苦，而且——
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Oh, I'm past the funny looks.
哦，我已经不再看那些滑稽的表情了。
I'm okay with that.
我对此表示同意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's an advanced neuroplasticity trick that comes with age.
这是随着年龄的增长而出现的高级神经可塑性技巧。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm right there with you.
我就在你身边。
I have a question about walking.
我有一个关于步行的问题。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
These days, we're hearing more and more about benefits of walking after meals and walking several times per day, blood sugar regulation.
如今，我们越来越多地听到关于饭后步行和每天步行几次以及调节血糖的好处。
I think it's all wonderful.
我认为这一切都很棒。
Anything that gets people moving in healthy ways, I think is terrific.
我认为任何能让人们以健康的方式运动的事情都是很棒的。
When it comes to walking, none of us want to be the person paying careful attention to our gait, especially when we're not in pain and things of that sort.
当谈到走路时，我们谁都不想成为那个仔细注意自己步态的人，尤其是当我们没有疼痛或类似的情况时。
But if you were going to recommend a daily walk, is there a duration and speed that you think could be beneficial in terms of staving off back pain, just general posture, things of that sort?
但是，如果您建议每天散步，您认为步行的持续时间和速度是否有助于避免背痛，只是一般姿势之类的？
Are we talking about a brisk five-minute walk or a brisk 20-minute walk, this kind of thing?
我们是在谈论快走 5 分钟还是快走 20 分钟之类的事情？
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
I'm with you 100% with the notion that walking is one of the most healthy things you can do.
我百分百同意您的观点：步行是您可以做的最健康的事情之一。
I get stuck a little bit when you want me to give numbers in a generic broad application.
当你想让我在通用的广泛应用程序中给出数字时，我有点陷入困境。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Ranges are fine.
范围很好。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
If I saw the person and they have a back pain history, I would know, A, should I just leave walking alone and tell them to walk?
如果我看到这个人并且他们有背痛史，我就会知道，A，我应该让他们独自行走并告诉他们走路吗？
It's quite fine.
很好。
That's not your problem.
那不是你的问题。
But we still want you to walk three or four times a day.
但我们仍然希望您每天步行三到四次。
But I know what the question is, and you want some general rules on all of this.
但我知道问题是什么，并且您需要一些关于所有这些的一般规则。
Don't walk to pain.
不要走路去疼痛。
So if your tipping point is 40 minutes, you can't go in for a 40-minute walk.
因此，如果你的临界点是 40 分钟，你就不能进行 40 分钟的步行。
You've just guaranteed that you will be unsuccessful in having a pain-free day.
你刚刚保证你不会成功地度过没有痛苦的一天。
But can you walk 20 minutes?
但是你能步行20分钟吗？
Good.
好的。
Walk 20 minutes, three times a day.
步行20分钟，每日3次。
Now you've got a full hour of pain-free walking guaranteed.
现在您可以保证一小时的无痛行走。
So it was the exposure and how you dosed it throughout the day.
所以关键在于暴露程度以及你一天中的剂量。
If the person has discogenic back pain, they will find that they don't like to stand in one position for very long, sit in one position for very long, or do any single activity for a long period of time.
如果患者患有椎间盘源性背痛，他们会发现自己不喜欢长时间以一种姿势站立、长时间以一种姿势坐着，或长时间进行任何一项活动。
So the key for their daily regimen is to keep changing posture.
所以他们日常养生的关键就是不断改变姿势。
So something like a sit-stand desk at work would be a really good idea.
因此，像工作中的坐站两用办公桌这样的东西将是一个非常好的主意。
But now the magic comes if they could sit for 20 minutes, stand for 30 minutes, and walk for 10.
但现在，如果他们能坐 20 分钟、站 30 分钟、步行 10 分钟，奇迹就来了。
Now that was the magic of the dosing that allows them to do their job as a computer programmer or whatever it is, where they're a slave to the computer.
这就是剂量的魔力，让他们能够作为计算机程序员或其他什么工作，成为计算机的奴隶。
There's no option.
没有选择。
So there's an idea there.
所以有一个想法。
In my own life, it's a habit.
在我自己的生活中，这是一种习惯。
I walk after every meal.
我每次饭后都会散步。
I walk before I go to bed, and that's my time with my wife and my dog, and it's our routine.
我在睡觉前散步，这是我与妻子和狗在一起的时间，这是我们的例行公事。
And even when we travel in the winter, we drive south, we break up the drive, and we do our walks, and it keeps us pain-free.
即使我们在冬天旅行，我们开车向南，我们中断开车，我们散步，这让我们没有痛苦。
It doesn't matter who you are.
你是谁并不重要。
If you sit all day, chances are you will cause pain.
如果你整天坐着，很可能会引起疼痛。
I can talk about damage, which is interesting.
我可以谈论伤害，这很有趣。
We've probably loaded more spines than any other laboratory in the world.
我们装载的书脊可能比世界上任何其他实验室都多。
I think that's a fair thing to say.
我认为这是公平的说法。
If we put a cadaveric spine, that is what we call a virgin spine.
如果我们放置尸体脊柱，那就是我们所说的处女脊柱。
In other words, it came from a young donor.
换句话说，它来自一位年轻的捐赠者。
It wasn't traumatized, so there's no preexisting cumulative damage to it.
它没有受到创伤，因此没有预先存在的累积损伤。
If you put it in a sitting posture, you cannot create new injury.
如果你把它放在坐姿上，就不会造成新的伤害。
So if a person has never had back pain, and I can give you an example.
所以如果一个人从来没有背痛过，我可以给你举个例子。
You know the person that they're probably overweight, and all they do is sit.
你知道那些人可能超重，但他们所做的就是坐着。
It's so unfair.
这太不公平了。
They don't have any back pain.
他们没有任何背痛。
And then their colleague is much more fit.
然后他们的同事就健康多了。
They go to the gym every day.
他们每天都去健身房。
They have back pain, and they think this is so unfair.
他们有背痛，他们认为这太不公平了。
But what they didn't realize is they are not training wisely at the gym.
但他们没有意识到，他们并没有在健身房进行明智的训练。
They are probably going far too hard in a short period of time with too much intensity, and they're creating a little bit of microtrauma.
他们可能在短时间内太过用力、强度太大，并且造成了一些微创伤。
So now they just made sitting painful.
所以现在他们只是让坐着变得痛苦。
So do you see what I mean?
那么你明白我的意思了吗？
You can't injure the spine sitting if you have no preexisting injury.
如果您之前没有受伤，那么坐着时就不会伤害脊柱。
But if you have preexisting delamination of the collagen, an old disc bulge, sitting for a long time will then make it painful.
但如果您已有胶原蛋白分层、旧椎间盘突出，那么长时间坐着就会感到疼痛。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If ever there were two exercises that bring to mind notions of back strengthening and potentially back pain, it's the deadlift and the squat.
如果有两种练习让人想起背部强化和潜在的背部疼痛，那就是硬拉和深蹲。
What are your thoughts on deadlifts and squats as a function of one's age, one's perhaps phenotype, ecto, endo, or mesomorph, or any other factors that would lead you to say, "Yes, Deadlift and or squat?
你对硬拉和深蹲的看法如何，取决于一个人的年龄、一个人的表型、外型、内型或中胚型，或者任何其他会让你说“是的，硬拉和/或深蹲？”的因素。
No, don't deadlift and or squat, or maybe you should deadlift and or squat.
不，不要硬拉和/或深蹲，或者也许你应该硬拉和/或深蹲。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Okay.
好的。
Those who know me know it could be any of those three options.
认识我的人都知道这可能是这三种选择中的任何一种。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
At the highest level, every exercise is a tool, and it's a tool to reach a specific goal.
在最高层面上，每项练习都是一种工具，而且是实现特定目标的工具。
So in our world of limited capacity, when a person is fresh coming out of back pain, or they're training to really achieve something physically, have they defined the goal, and have they chosen the best tool to keep as much capacity as they can for training other things that really matter?
因此，在我们能力有限的世界中，当一个人刚从背痛中恢复过来，或者他们正在训练以真正实现身体目标时，他们是否定义了目标，并且他们是否选择了最好的工具来保持尽可能多的能力来训练其他真正重要的事情？
The deadlift is an extraordinary exercise.
硬拉是一项非凡的运动。
And as you know, I don't know of anyone who's been involved with more world-class deadlifters than myself through the back pain relationship.
如你所知，我不知道有谁比我因背痛关系而参与过更多的世界级硬拉运动员。
So, on one hand, I can say, "Well, I love the deadlift," and on another hand, I can say, "I hate the deadlift." I can tell you, Andrew, that if you take the clients who ask for consults now and they're under 30 years of age, I will say half of them will say in their interview with me, "It started with a deadlift." So I would say that is getting on to the category of an epidemic.
所以，一方面，我可以说，“嗯，我喜欢硬拉”，另一方面，我可以说，“我讨厌硬拉。”安德鲁，我可以告诉你，如果你拿现在寻求咨询的客户来说，他们的年龄都在 30 岁以下，我会说他们中有一半人会在接受我采访时说，“这是从硬拉开始的。”所以我想说，这已经进入了流行病的范畴。
And yet I will still tell you I love the deadlift.
但我仍然会告诉你我喜欢硬拉。
So there's a lot of variables here, a lot of moving parts.
所以这里有很多变量，很多变化的部分。
The deadlift is a tremendously neurologically dense exercise, whether you're lifting a light weight or a heavy weight.
无论你举的是轻重量还是大重量，硬拉都是一项神经系统极其密集的运动。
I love these bodybuilding charts that say, "Oh, well, to do a deadlift, it lights up the erector spine, the glutes, and the quads, perhaps." Every single muscle of the body should be involved at a deadlift.
我喜欢这些健美图表，上面写着：“哦，好吧，做硬拉，它可能会照亮竖脊肌、臀肌和股四头肌。”硬拉时身体的每一块肌肉都应该参与进来。
Every single muscle.
每一块肌肉。
There are no agonists and antagonists.
不存在激动剂和拮抗剂。
Every muscle, the full fascial complex, will be tightened up to take the slack out to pull a bar from the ground.
每块肌肉，整个筋膜复合体，都会被收紧，以消除松弛，将杠铃从地面上拉出来。
That's a good deadlift.
这是一个很好的硬拉。
That's what minimizes the risk of injury.
这就是最大程度地减少受伤风险的原因。
And as you know, competitive deadlifters will actually put on an exoskeleton of even more fascial stiffness.
如您所知，竞技硬拉运动员实际上会穿上筋膜更加僵硬的外骨骼。
It's called a lifting suit.
它被称为举重服。
But not everybody, obviously, is in that category.
但显然，并不是所有人都属于这一类。
Now, I'm going to talk about one of the most potent pathways to disc herniation.
现在，我要谈谈治疗椎间盘突出症最有效的途径之一。
So we have the disc.
这样我们就有了光盘。
From an anatomical point of view, it's a gel core wrapped with layer upon layer, concentric layers of collagen fibers that in order to get a disc bulge or a disc herniation, they needed to delaminate, and the gel nucleus, when it's pressurized under a heavy bend, will seek the weak spot between these fibers, work through the delamination, and create a disc bulge.
从解剖学的角度来看，它是一个凝胶核心，包裹着一层又一层同心的胶原纤维，为了获得椎间盘突出或椎间盘突出，它们需要分层，而凝胶核在剧烈弯曲下受压时，会寻找这些纤维之间的薄弱点，通过分层，形成椎间盘突出。
There's been several recent studies now that have done assays, investigations of the harvested nucleus in a disc surgery.
最近有几项研究对椎间盘手术中收获的髓核进行了分析和研究。
More than half the time, that harvested nucleus contained fragments of broken end plate.
超过一半的时间，收获的细胞核含有破碎的终板碎片。
Broken end plate comes from excessive compression.
端板断裂是由于过度压缩造成的。
And then you go into the history of the person.
然后你进入这个人的历史。
Oh, well, maybe they fell on ice, and they pile drived their back.
哦，好吧，也许他们掉在冰上，然后他们的背部被撞倒了。
There's a candidate mechanism to create small fractured bits of end plate.
有一种候选机制可以产生端板的小碎片。
But then they will say, "No, this whole disc herniation story, it started with a deadlift two years ago.
但随后他们会说，“不，这整个椎间盘突出的故事，是从两年前的一次硬拉开始的。
My back got a bit tweaky after that.
之后我的背部有点酸痛。
I kept deadlifting and whatnot." And then they find the fragments of bone.
我一直在硬拉什么的。”然后他们发现了骨头碎片。
So more than half of that harvested nucleus shows evidence of an overloading compression.
因此，超过一半的收获细胞核显示出超载压缩的证据。
When you put that together with the history, and again, it's not the fault of the deadlift, it's the fault of the progression.
当你把它与历史放在一起时，你会发现这不是硬拉的错，而是进展的错。
There are some trainers who will take a person from an unfit state through to lifting in a deadlift twice their body weight in half a year.
有些训练师会在半年内将一个人从不健康状态带到举起两倍于体重的硬拉。
When you look at the stimulus to bone growth, it takes a lot longer than half a year.
如果你看看对骨骼生长的刺激，你会发现这需要比半年更长的时间。
And when you look at the characteristics of really successful deadlifters, they're not young men and women.
当你观察真正成功的硬拉运动员的特征时，你会发现他们并不是年轻的男女。
They are people who've trained their body over many years to get that density of bone, because that really is the weakest link in a deadlift as far as back injury goes.
他们多年来一直在训练自己的身体以获得这样的骨骼密度，因为就背部损伤而言，这确实是硬拉中最薄弱的环节。
So there's something to consider, first of all.
因此，首先有一些事情需要考虑。
Let's go back to the back pained person now, and there are some people who do not perform an assessment, and they say, "Oh, if you've got back pain, the symptom of back pain, do deadlifts." Well, hold on a second.
现在让我们回到背痛的人，有些人没有进行评估，他们说，“哦，如果你有背痛，背痛的症状，就做硬拉。”好吧，请稍等。
One of the first things we do after we've assessed them is to try and get rid of the cause.
评估后我们要做的第一件事就是尝试消除原因。
That almost always involves teaching them how to bend at the hips and not stressing and creating concentrations in the spine.
这几乎总是涉及教他们如何弯曲臀部，而不是对脊柱施加压力和集中注意力。
It's called a hip hinge.
它被称为髋关节铰链。
Then we may put a load in their hands, and then we have to assess their hips to determine whether the hips have shallow sockets or deep sockets.
然后我们可能会在他们的手上放一个重物，然后我们必须评估他们的臀部以确定臀部是浅窝还是深窝。
In other words, what's the hip range of motion that will allow you to pick a bar off the ground?
换句话说，臀部的运动范围是多少才能让您从地上拿起一根杠铃？
There are many people who shouldn't be picking heavy bars off the ground.
有很多人不应该从地上捡起沉重的铁条。
When you look at the size of an Olympic, I call them cookies, but a 45-pound plate, I suppose That was arbitrarily chosen.
当你看到奥运会的大小时，我称它们为饼干，但 45 磅重的盘子，我想那是任意选择的。
In fact, it was actually chosen that if someone dropped the bar on the ground, your head could fit between the bar and the ground.
事实上，它实际上是选择的，如果有人将杠铃掉在地上，你的头可以放在杠铃和地面之间。
That was where that original size of the cookie came from, is my understanding of it.
我对它的理解是，这就是饼干原始大小的来源。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are people lifting alone quite often?
人们经常独自举重吗？
Is that why?
是因为这个吗？
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Well, there's lots of YouTubes of those injuries, but anyway.
嗯，YouTube 上有很多关于这些伤害的视频，但无论如何。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, that's something that I both encourage and discourage people from searching for because it can scare you appropriately, but it also can be traumatizing to see.
是的，这是我既鼓励又不鼓励人们寻找的东西，因为它可能会适当地吓到你，但看到它也可能会造成创伤。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Right.
对。
So now we've put together the idea of what anatomy do they have in the hips, and where's the tipping point in picking something off the ground?
现在我们已经整理出了它们臀部的解剖结构的想法，以及从地上捡起东西的临界点在哪里？
We may start to progress the hip hinge into a loaded situation if the person doesn't have compressive load triggers to their back pain pattern.
如果该人没有导致背部疼痛模式的压缩负荷触发因素，我们可能会开始将髋部铰链推进到负荷状态。
I doubt we'll be pulling a bar off the ground, though.
不过，我怀疑我们能否成功。
We will elevate the bar and put it on blocks.
我们将升高酒吧并将其放在块上。
So if you come to Back Fit Pro and you look at our rack that has 1,300 pounds there available to lift if you wish, they pull off pins.
因此，如果您来到 Back Fit Pro，看到我们的架子上有 1,300 磅的重物，如果您愿意，可以举起，它们会拔掉别针。
In other words, we're matching the height of the pull to their biomechanical optimum in the beginning.
换句话说，我们一开始就将拉力的高度与最佳生物力学相匹配。
And then we have to decide, is the deadlift the best tool to get them to their goal?
然后我们必须决定，硬拉是帮助他们实现目标的最佳工具吗？
I did the podcast with Peter Attia, and Peter had a little section on the deadlift, and he asked me the same question.
我和彼得·阿蒂亚一起做了播客，彼得有一小部分是关于硬拉的，他问了我同样的问题。
But he just told me his personal story of conflict and whether he should be deadlifting.
但他只是告诉我他个人的冲突故事以及他是否应该进行硬拉。
He's had a couple of spine surgeries as a younger man when none of us knew better in those days, I suppose.
我想，他年轻时曾做过几次脊柱手术，当时我们谁也不知道。
And my answer was to him, and a lot of people took it, and we got a lot of blowback on this, that it was a generic answer for deadlifts.
我的回答是给他的，很多人都接受了，我们对此提出了很多反对意见，认为这是硬拉的通用答案。
And it wasn't.
但事实并非如此。
It was an answer for him where I started to talk about, "Well, maybe for yourself, why don't we walk backwards up a hill in a monster walk style and you will feel the quads burning?
这是对他的回答，我开始谈论，“好吧，也许对你自己来说，为什么我们不以怪物行走的方式向后走上山，你会感觉到股四头肌在燃烧？
How many squats and deadlifts do you really need to do?" And then neurology comes into this.
你真正需要做多少次深蹲和硬拉？”然后神经病学就涉及到这个问题。
You walk backwards up a hill, say it's about 50 yards.
你倒着走上一座山，假设大约有 50 码。
Your quads are burning.
你的股四头肌正在燃烧。
Then walk down to the bottom of the hill and walk forwards up the hill.
然后一直走到山脚下，再往前走上山。
The brain says, "I'm perceiving exhausted quads.
大脑说：“我感觉到股四头肌筋疲力尽。
Let's go get the next in the hierarchy, your glutes." It's a fabulous stimulator to glutes.
让我们去锻炼下一个，你的臀肌。”这是对臀肌的极好的刺激器。
So there you go.
所以就这样吧。
I've just found a better tool for a person who has limited capacity.
我刚刚为能力有限的人找到了一个更好的工具。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Deadlift was not the way to go.
硬拉不是正确的选择。
They're going to walk backwards up a hill, and then they're going to walk forward and really feel tremendous exhaustion if that's how they get their jollies, and if that's what we need in the athleticism to keep them going and building robustness.
他们会倒着走上山，然后他们会向前走，如果这就是他们获得快乐的方式，如果这就是我们需要的运动精神来让他们继续前进并建立稳健性，他们真的会感到巨大的疲惫。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What are your thoughts on glute ham raises?
您对臀肌火腿抬高有何看法？
I'm a big fan of Nordic curls and glute ham raises for the posterior chain.
我是北欧弯举和后链臀腿举高的忠实粉丝。
To me, a glute ham raise, folks can look it up, is basically a deadlift into a leg curl, into a hamstring leg curl, except that your feet are, instead of being on the floor for the deadlift part, you've rotated yourself 90 degrees so that the feet are effectively at the wall, right?
对我来说，臀腿举腿，大家可以查一下，基本上就是从硬拉到腿弯举，到腿筋腿弯举，只不过你的脚不是在硬拉部分放在地板上，而是将自己旋转了 90 度，这样脚就有效地贴在墙上，对吧？
And from the bottom position up to the parallel to floor position, that's more or less a deadlift, right?
从底部位置到平行于地板的位置，这或多或少是硬拉，对吧？
Stiff-legged or partially stiff-legged deadlift, and then the rest of the way is the Nordic curl or the leg curl.
直腿或部分直腿硬拉，然后剩下的方式就是北欧弯举或腿弯举。
To me, that seems like almost the perfect exercise for the posterior chain, hamstrings, and glutes, which is why I do them regularly.
对我来说，这几乎是对后链、腿筋和臀肌的完美锻炼，这就是我经常这样做的原因。
What are your thoughts about them for back strengthening and for people that are trying to avoid back pain, both in the present and in the future?
对于现在和将来的背部强化和试图避免背部疼痛的人们来说，您对它们有何看法？
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
It's exactly the same answer that I gave you for deadlifts.
这和我给你的硬拉答案一模一样。
A, it depends, and B, is it the best tool to reach the goal?
A，这要看情况，B，它是实现目标的最佳工具吗？
That is an auxiliary exercise.
这是一个辅助练习。
It's not a deadlift.
这不是硬拉。
It's just challenging a part of the chain involved in the full chain that's required for a deadlift.
它只是挑战硬拉所需的整个链条中涉及的一部分链条。
If I go back to some of the criticism after that original deadlift statement, there was a lot of older fellows who were saying, "You know, I love the deadlift.
如果我回到最初的硬拉声明之后的一些批评，有很多年长的人说，“你知道，我喜欢硬拉。
When I stop deadlifting, my back pain actually increases, and deadlifting keeps the bogeyman away." I get it.
当我停止硬拉时，我的背部疼痛实际上会加剧，而硬拉可以让怪物远离我。”我明白了。
Okay, that was the right tool for them, but I can tell you about the characteristic of those people.
好吧，这对他们来说是正确的工具，但我可以告诉你这些人的特征。
They will be somewhat unidimensional in their athleticism.
他们的运动能力有些单一。
I will bet you dollars to donuts.
我会用美元和甜甜圈打赌。
Actually, donuts are getting more expensive now, so that's a poor analogy.
事实上，甜甜圈现在变得越来越贵，所以这是一个糟糕的类比。
That worked when I was a kid.
当我还是个孩子的时候，这很有效。
But anyway, ask them to throw a football, ask them to swing a golf club.
但无论如何，让他们扔一个足球，让他们挥动高尔夫球杆。
I'll bet you the ones who say deadlifts are good for their back pain won't do well in either of those activities.
我敢打赌，那些说硬拉对背痛有好处的人在这两项活动中都不会做得很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
So it's a very unidimensional problem.
所以这是一个非常单维的问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because they can't generate that kind of twist and snap with the throwing a football, for instance.
因为他们无法通过投掷足球等方式产生那种扭曲和折断。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like the stiffening up of the body at precisely the right moment.
就像身体在恰当的时刻僵硬一样。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the relaxing of the arm-
还有手臂的放松——
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Yeah, it's a pulsing strength
是的，这是一种脉动的力量
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
kind of the flicking and spiral.
那种轻弹和螺旋的感觉。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Yeah, a deadlift is not a pulsing strength.
是的，硬拉不是脉动力量。
It's a grinding strength.
这是一种研磨强度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
And again, if you want neurology to adapt, to create...
再说一次，如果你想让神经学适应、创造……
Again, I know people don't like when I do this, but I like athletic examples, and I learn so much because it's like a car mechanic working on a McLaren, and then a dump truck, which carries heavy load, and then a Baja racer, which is incredibly endurable, because it shows you, in terms of engineering and automotive technology, what is possible.
再说一次，我知道人们不喜欢我这样做，但我喜欢运动的例子，而且我学到了很多东西，因为这就像一个汽车修理工在一辆迈凯轮上工作，然后是一辆载重的自卸卡车，然后是一辆非常耐用的巴哈赛车，因为它向你展示了，在工程和汽车技术方面，什么是可能的。
So when you work with a great athlete, you learn what is humanly possible.
因此，当你与一位伟大的运动员一起工作时，你就会了解到人类的可能性。
So something like a deadlift, it teaches the nerves to carry electricity.
像硬拉这样的动作，它可以教会神经传导电流。
When you measure a very good deadlift, it is an exhausting But think of it.
当你测量一个非常好的硬拉时，这是一种筋疲力尽的感觉，但是想一想。
What is strength?
什么是实力？
Strength starts with this thought, and now you have to densify that thought.
力量始于这个想法，现在你必须强化这个想法。
Then you have to densify the pulse train down through the nerves, and you've got to teach the nerves to carry that amount of electrical pulse, then you've got to teach the muscles to utilize it.
然后你必须使穿过神经的脉冲序列变得密集，你必须教神经携带一定量的电脉冲，然后你必须教肌肉利用它。
So in terms of grinding strength capacity, a deadlift is pretty good, but does that have to do with most people with back pain?
因此，就磨练力量能力而言，硬拉相当不错，但这与大多数背痛的人有关吗？
A few years ago, the professional golf community, led by a few personalities, got into heavier lifting.
几年前，职业高尔夫界在一些名人的带领下开始从事更重的运动。
Now, this was rather odd.
现在，这很奇怪。
If you go back to the old days of Jack Nicklaus and Gary Player and Arnold Palmer, do you think they lifted heavy weights?
如果你回到杰克·尼克劳斯、加里·普莱尔和阿诺德·帕尔默的旧时代，你认为他们举起重物吗？
And I think Arnold Palmer is still playing.
我认为阿诺·帕尔默仍在打球。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some of those guys back when were known for having a few alcohol-
其中一些人以前因酗酒而闻名——
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
drinks plus smoking cigarettes on-
喝酒加抽烟——
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
on the course.
在课程上。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
But my point is, the more you deadlift, the less you will be able to throw a football and play golf.
但我的观点是，你硬拉得越多，你就越不能踢足球和打高尔夫球。
So if your goal in life is to be generally able to enjoy a really diverse array of activities, be careful on the tools that you choose.
因此，如果您的人生目标是能够享受各种各样的活动，请谨慎选择工具。
So going back to the pro golfers of, say, 15 years ago, when a few of them got into Olympic lifting, which is heavy hip mobility down to the deep squat for the snatch, and tremendous shoulder mobility, and deadlifts.
回想一下 15 年前的职业高尔夫球手，当时他们中的一些人参加了奥林匹克举重比赛，即从臀部的大灵活性到抓举的深蹲，以及巨大的肩部灵活性和硬拉。
Not one of them, to my knowledge, and I know some of them intimately well, hit the ball further.
据我所知，他们中没有一个人能将球击得更远，而且我对他们中的一些人非常了解。
But they ended up with sore knees and disc bulges.
但他们最终都出现了膝盖酸痛和椎间盘突出的情况。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Essentially, really heavily compromising their careers.
从本质上讲，这确实严重损害了他们的职业生涯。
And then a few of them, and I've worked with quite a number of them, have now backed off that heavy lifting, and they have less pain, far more resilience, and I think they're going to be playing a lot longer for it.
然后他们中的一些人，我和他们中的很多人一起工作过，现在已经放弃了繁重的工作，他们的痛苦更少，恢复力更强，我认为他们会为此工作更长时间。
So I know that's going to create some controversy, but so be it.
所以我知道这会引起一些争议，但就这样吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, that's okay.
好吧，没关系。
I've gone on record saying that I'll do, and genuinely do, heavy hack squats, hack machine squats-
我已经公开表示我会做，而且是真心实意地做，大重量哈克深蹲、哈克机器深蹲——
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
leg extensions, those kinds of things.
腿部伸展，诸如此类的事情。
Alternatives that, for me, have just led to progressively more of what I'm looking for-
对我来说，替代方案逐渐导致了我正在寻找的更多东西-
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in training legs, and back, of course, lower back.
在训练腿部，还有背部，当然还有下背部。
And I do glute ham raises.
我也做臀腿抬高。
And I can do all of those without pain.
我可以毫无痛苦地完成所有这些。
I don't know the last time I ever did a deadlift.
我不知道我上次做硬拉是什么时候了。
I was never particularly strong in the deadlift.
我在硬拉方面从来都不是特别强壮。
But if you're telling me that avoiding deadlifts as I get older, heavy deadlifts that is, is going to help me avoid back and hip pain, then I'm all for avoiding heavy deadlifts.
但如果你告诉我，随着年龄的增长，避免硬拉，也就是说，大重量硬拉将帮助我避免背部和臀部疼痛，那么我完全赞成避免大重量硬拉。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Well, it depends.
嗯，这取决于。
First of all, I don't put you in the category of high risk for osteoporosis, which is mineral loss from your bones through genetics and way under the tipping point in terms of load stimulation.
首先，我不会将您归入骨质疏松症的高风险类别，骨质疏松症是由于遗传因素导致骨骼矿物质流失，并且在负荷刺激方面处于临界点以下。
So I'm not worried about that for you.
所以我不为你担心这个。
So if I was, that would justify a heavier loading regimen for now.
所以如果我是的话，那就证明现在更重的负荷方案是合理的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
But as alternatives, a rear leg elevated split squat.
但作为替代方案，后腿抬高分腿深蹲。
You can do it just with body weight, or consider this, interlace your fingers, put them behind your head, become a peacock.
你可以只用体重来做，或者考虑一下，十指交叉，放在脑后，变成一只孔雀。
Lift your chest up.
挺起胸膛。
Now do the split leg rear elevated squats.
现在进行分腿后高位深蹲。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Like lunge squats.
比如弓箭步深蹲。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
And you're potentiating the erector spinae and the whole stabilizing mechanism by pushing up and resisting.
通过向上推和抵抗，你可以增强竖脊肌和整个稳定机制。
Do you see how-
你看到了吗-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do I need to flare my elbows back?
我需要将肘部向后张开吗？
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
You can do, yeah.
你可以做，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Now, do you see how that just stimulated your whole upper body?
现在，你看到这如何刺激了你的整个上半身吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
And the more you push, and the more you-
你越推动，你就越——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The middle traps, everything light up.
中间陷阱，一切都亮了。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
And you just lit up your whole erector spinae.
你刚刚点亮了整个竖脊肌。
We did all of that without a heavy bar.
我们在没有沉重的杠铃的情况下完成了所有这一切。
You could do a goblet squat, hold it in front.
你可以做高脚杯深蹲，把它举在前面。
Now the whole body takes a more upright attitude.
现在整个身体的姿态更加端正了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
It's more knee load if you want more knee load and less back and hip load, or a back squat.
如果你想要更多的膝盖负荷和更少的背部和臀部负荷，那么可以增加膝盖负荷，或者进行后蹲。
You add more hip and low back load, and you take some off the knees.
你增加了更多的臀部和腰部负荷，并减轻了一些膝盖负荷。
So you can band the knees.
这样你就可以绑住膝盖了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
We can really play jazz on this to optimize the best variant to get optimal reward with minimal risk, and that will change as you recover from the back injury.
我们真的可以在这方面发挥爵士乐来优化最佳变体，以最小的风险获得最佳回报，并且随着您从背部受伤中恢复，这种情况将会改变。
It will change with age.
它会随着年龄的增长而改变。
It will change with other comorbidities.
它会随着其他合并症而改变。
"Oh, my neck's a bit sore." You've dinged up your shoulder, whatever the case may be.
“哦，我脖子有点酸。”不管怎样，你的肩膀已经受伤了。
Single leg step-ups would be another example.
单腿上台阶是另一个例子。
Now you've added a balance challenge.
现在您已经添加了平衡挑战。
As you get older, your risk will not be mitigated by deadlifts, because the biggest risk as you get older is falling.
随着年龄的增长，硬拉不会降低你的风险，因为随着年龄的增长，最大的风险是跌倒。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
That will really change your life, as it does in many people.
这将真正改变你的生活，就像许多人一样。
Do you have the agility and neural dexterity that when you stumble, can you get your foot out ahead of the center of mass, which is now ahead of the base of support, so you're going to fall.
当你绊倒时，你是否具有敏捷性和神经灵巧性，能够将脚伸出到重心之前，而重心现在位于支撑底座之前，因此你会摔倒。
You got to get that quick.
你必须快点。
So it's hip power, quick.
所以它是臀部力量，快速。
Arrest the fall, and really mitigate against catastrophe, which is that fall.
阻止坠落，真正减轻灾难，那就是坠落。
So do you see how that changed?
那么你看到情况发生了怎样的变化吗？
But can I just finish off with one thing?
但我可以只完成一件事吗？
And I want to talk about deadlifts and capacity as well.
我还想谈谈硬拉和容量。
And again, it's a lesson that we learn from elite athletes.
再说一遍，这是我们从精英运动员身上学到的教训。
When we have an athlete whose goal it is to set a world record, be it in deadlifting or squatting or whatever, they can't train maximum deadlifts and squats two or three times a week.
当我们有一名运动员的目标是创造世界纪录时，无论是硬拉还是深蹲还是其他什么，他们都无法每周训练两到三次最大硬拉和深蹲。
It is just too exhausting, and the recovery period required between training sessions becomes so long, they actually lose the peak of the training progress.
实在是太累了，而且训练之间的恢复时间又太长，实际上已经失去了训练进度的巅峰状态。
So, we do it through auxiliary exercise.
所以，我们通过辅助练习来做到这一点。
So, when I think of someone like Brian Carroll, again, this is all sort of content validity types of arguments.
所以，当我再次想到像布莱恩·卡罗尔这样的人时，这就是各种内容有效性类型的论点。
I get it, but until someone produces a few more winners, I'm going to stick with the way our science has shown to go.
我明白了，但在有人产生更多获胜者之前，我将坚持我们的科学已经表明的方式。
If you train and really push, you're talking about training at 85%.
如果你训练并真正推动，你所说的训练率是 85%。
Well, are you going to set the world record if you only train at 85%?
那么，如果你只训练85%，你就能创造世界纪录吗？
Probably not.
可能不会。
But if you go to 100%, you've got to take a couple of weeks off.
但如果你达到 100%，你就必须休息几周。
So instead, you do some auxiliaries.
因此，您可以做一些辅助工作。
Like Brian used heavily the belt squat machine, which you can really train hips, legs, et cetera.
就像布莱恩大量使用腰带深蹲机一样，你可以真正训练臀部、腿部等。
Tremendous power, but it doesn't take or exhaust the whole upper body and back system.
力量巨大，但并不会消耗或耗尽整个上半身和背部系统。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Where you're not loading the spine or compressing the spine.
您没有对脊柱施加负载或压缩脊柱的地方。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Because you just can't do it.
因为你就是做不到。
So do you see why it's very difficult for me, without knowing the person, knowing what the goals are, knowing what their future risks are, is it a bone mineral density issue, or is it their knees are getting a bit cranky now, or whatever?
所以你明白为什么这对我来说非常困难吗？不了解这个人，不知道目标是什么，不知道他们未来的风险是什么，这是骨矿物质密度问题，还是他们的膝盖现在变得有点暴躁，或者其他什么？
I have to choose the most efficient tools.
我必须选择最有效的工具。
Occasionally, it's a deadlift, but I also told you that right now, there's too many young people influenced by social media who are trying to set, "Oh, I'm going to set a personal best in deadlift," not really knowing how to densify the neural drive, take out all the slack, so when they grip the bar, the final squeeze of the bar actually gets the bar moving.
偶尔，这是硬拉，但我也告诉过你，现在有太多的年轻人受到社交媒体的影响，他们试图设定“哦，我要在硬拉中设定个人最好成绩”，但他们并不真正知道如何强化神经驱动，消除所有的松弛，所以当他们握住杠铃时，杠铃的最后挤压实际上使杠铃移动。
They're breaking it from the floor.
他们正在把它从地板上摔下来。
They're so stiff throughout their body, and they don't know this yet.
他们全身僵硬，而他们还不知道这一点。
And they end up with a back injury, and those are long-lasting.
他们最终会受到背部伤害，而且这种伤害是持久的。
They're hard to recover from.
他们很难从中恢复过来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You've talked about the so-called biblical training week.
你谈到了所谓的圣经培训周。
I love this.
我喜欢这个。
It's something that I plan to adopt for myself.
这是我打算为自己采用的东西。
It's not too far off from what I do now, but it's distinctly different enough that I'm excited because it's going to require some psychological adaptation, physical adaptation.
这与我现在所做的并不算太远，但它明显不同，足以让我感到兴奋，因为它需要一些心理适应、身体适应。
Tell me, what is the biblical training week, and why is it so useful?
告诉我，什么是圣经训练周，为什么它如此有用？
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
It is the underlying philosophy of how I train now.
这是我现在训练的基本理念。
It wouldn't have appealed to me when I was in my 20s and 30s.
当我20多岁和30多岁的时候，它对我没有吸引力。
In those days, it was all about strength, power, looking good, impressive, et cetera.
在那些日子里，一切都是关于力量、力量、好看、令人印象深刻等等。
But my joints aren't what they used to be.
但我的关节已经不像以前那样了。
My training has evolved with my age.
我的训练随着我的年龄而变化。
So the name Biblical Training Week came from the idea that every major religion has a Sabbath day, a day off.
因此，圣经训练周这个名字来源于这样的想法：每个主要宗教都有安息日，即休息日。
And when I was a kid and working with my dad, you didn't do any work on Sunday, and that was his day of allowing all the cumulative work during the week to adapt and settle out.
当我还是个孩子的时候，和我爸爸一起工作时，周日你不做任何工作，而那是他让一周中所有累积的工作适应和解决的日子。
So it's a very wise thing to do.
所以这是一件非常明智的事情。
There's six days to train.
还有六天的训练时间。
In its basic form, two days a week, I strength train.
在基本形式中，我每周两天进行力量训练。
Two days a week, I work on the things that are a bit sticky and not moving very well because I'm getting older, and I have a few injuries.
每周有两天，我会做一些有点粘的事情，而且移动得不太好，因为我年纪大了，而且我也受了一些伤。
So those are the mobility days.
所以那些是流动性的日子。
Two days a week, I work on my ticker, cardiovascular system, things to challenge my heart, et cetera.
每周有两天，我会研究我的股票、心血管系统、挑战我心脏的事情等等。
There's more caveats to all of this.
所有这一切还有更多警告。
So I live in a rural setting most of the time.
所以我大部分时间都住在农村。
We heat our cabin, I live in most of the days of the week, by wood, so I have to split firewood.
我们为我们的小屋取暖，一周中的大部分时间我都靠木头生活，所以我必须劈柴。
If I split firewood, I've checked all the boxes.
如果我劈柴，我就检查了所有的方框。
It's cardiovascular training, it's mobility training, and it's strength training, so it's also a lot of power.
这是心血管训练，是灵活性训练，也是力量训练，所以也有很大的力量。
So I've done my training for that particular day, but I wouldn't split wood two days in a row.
所以我已经完成了那一天的训练，但我不会连续两天劈木头。
I wouldn't strength train two days in a row.
我不会连续两天进行力量训练。
I wouldn't mobility train two days in a row.
我不会连续两天进行机动性训练。
So that's another caveat.
这是另一个警告。
Don't do the same thing two days in a row and allow the soreness to really develop into something.
不要连续两天做同样的事情，以免疼痛真正发展下去。
Another thing that suits me well is routine.
另一件很适合我的事情是例行公事。
I try and go to bed at the same time, get up at the same time.
我尝试同时睡觉，同时起床。
So those are the basic tenets of the biblical training week.
这些就是圣经训练周的基本原则。
The components of each, I've had some neck trauma, some shoulder trauma.
每个的组成部分，我有一些颈部创伤，一些肩部创伤。
I broke my hip.
我摔断了臀部。
I'm hip replaced.
我髋关节置换了
These are the things that I focus on for strategic mobility.
这些是我在战略流动性方面关注的重点。
The strength training is a little bit of bodybuilding, a little bit of strength in patternings.
力量训练是一点健美，一点力量的模式。
So patterns of a squat, a lift, a lunge, a push, a pull, et cetera.
因此，有深蹲、举起、弓步、推、拉等模式。
And so I don't run because of my hips, but in the summertime, I will swim, kayak, canoe, but I'll put a bit of beef into it, a bit of effort.
所以我不会跑步，因为我的臀部，但在夏天，我会游泳，划皮划艇，独木舟，但我会投入一点牛肉，一点努力。
I ride my bike.
我骑自行车。
In the winter, I cross-country ski, shovel snow is a big part where I live, et cetera.
冬天的时候，我越野滑雪、铲雪等等都是我生活的很大一部分。
So those are the-- oh, by the way, I do the big three, six days out of seven, and I didn't really discuss that of why they're essential.
所以这些是——哦，顺便说一句，我做这三件事，七天中的六天，我并没有真正讨论为什么它们是必不可少的。
We didn't invent those exercises, but we measured.
我们没有发明这些练习，但我们进行了测量。
We were one of the few groups in the world who actually measured spine stability in a quantitative way.
我们是世界上少数几个真正以定量方式测量脊柱稳定性的小组之一。
Doing the big three was the most efficient way to guarantee spine stability but spare the spine while you're doing it.
做大三动作是保证脊柱稳定性的最有效方法，但在做的时候要保护脊柱。
Well, some people will say, "Well, why are you sparing your spine?" It allows me to have capacity, the limited capacity, to do other things.
好吧，有些人会说：“那你为什么要保护你的脊椎呢？”它让我有能力，有限的能力，去做其他事情。
So why would I waste them all on core training?
那么为什么我要把它们全部浪费在核心训练上呢？
The other thing is we live in a linkage, so the spine is a flexible rod.
另一件事是我们生活在连杆中，所以脊柱是一根灵活的杆。
There's no coincidence that either end of your core is a ball and socket joint, the shoulder and the hips.
核心的两端都是球窝关节、肩膀和臀部，这并非巧合。
If I wanted to push you or an object, a heavy door perhaps at the university or at a shopping mall, say I could bench press 300 pounds.
如果我想推你或一个物体，一扇沉重的门，也许是在大学或购物中心，比如说我可以卧推 300 磅。
Well, I can't anymore, but say I could.
好吧，我不能再这样了，但我可以说我可以。
The bench press muscle is the pec major.
卧推肌是胸大肌。
Let's look at the architecture of the pec major.
我们来看看pec专业的架构。
The pec major crosses the shoulder joint, distal to the shoulder joint to where it connects on the upper arm bone, the humerus.
胸大肌穿过肩关节，在肩关节的远端到达它与上臂骨、肱骨的连接处。
The muscle contracts and creates the desired push.
肌肉收缩并产生所需的推力。
But proximal, it connects to my rib cage.
但在近端，它连接到我的胸腔。
Look what it does.
看看它有什么作用。
It collapses my torso into my shoulder, which is an energy leak.
它使我的躯干塌陷到肩膀上，这是能量泄漏。
That is anti-push.
这就是反推。
But if I can use core control and core stiffness and lock down proximally, 100% of that muscle activity now goes distally to the athleticism.
但如果我可以利用核心控制和核心刚度并锁定近端，那么现在 100% 的肌肉活动都会转向远端的运动能力。
So you may have heard the expression, a stronger core makes you stronger throughout your body.
所以你可能听过这样一句话：更强的核心让你的整个身体更强大。
Well, how does that work?
嗯，那是如何运作的呢？
I've just explained to you that when you create proximal control and stiffness, it directs the athleticism distally.
我刚刚向你解释过，当你创造近端控制和僵硬时，它会引导远端的运动能力。
If you want to wiggle your finger quickly, you had to stiffen your wrist.
如果你想快速摆动手指，就必须绷紧手腕。
If you want to wiggle your arm quickly, you had to stiffen your upper arm, et cetera.
如果你想快速摆动你的手臂，你必须绷紧你的上臂，等等。
So the mother of all proximal stability is your core.
因此，所有近端稳定性之母是你的核心。
In exactly the same way a heavy equipment operator using a backhoe, the first thing they do is they put down the stabilizers, which are posts that go into the ground and lift the tires off the ground to stabilize the tractor, so that now the arm can be the athlete pulling earth.
与使用反铲的重型设备操作员完全相同，他们做的第一件事就是放下稳定器，稳定器是进入地面并将轮胎抬离地面以稳定拖拉机的柱子，这样现在手臂就可以成为拉土的运动员。
Failure to stabilize, you're just pulling the tractor around.
如果无法稳定下来，你就只能拖拉机到处乱跑。
So core stability is essential for ability and performance.
因此，核心稳定性对于能力和表现至关重要。
It's arresting all little micro-movements.
它阻止了所有微小的运动。
We're all shrinking.
我们都在萎缩。
You will notice this probably over the next decade.
您可能会在未来十年内注意到这一点。
The disc height is now shrinking, and there's going to be a little bit more micro movement in the discs.
圆盘高度现在正在缩小，并且圆盘中会有更多的微移动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is there anything that can be done to offset the shrinking?
有什么办法可以抵消萎缩的影响吗？
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Not that I know of.
据我所知没有。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People will ask whether or not hanging or anti-gravity boots, that kind of thing.
人们会问是否有悬挂或反重力靴子之类的东西。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Oh, well, I've measured that.
哦，好吧，我已经测量过了。
Yes.
是的。
It will increase disc height for 15 minutes, and then gravity and the hydrostatic pressures will cause the fluid flow.
它将增加椎间盘高度 15 分钟，然后重力和静水压力将导致流体流动。
And the fluid flow, there's a little bit laterally through the disc, but most of it comes through the end plates, so from the vertebral body into the nucleus of the disc.
流体流动，有一点横向穿过椎间盘，但大部分来自终板，因此从椎体进入椎间盘的核。
And you can draw fluid in under tension.
您可以在张力下吸入液体。
But the hydrostatic pressure overrides the osmotic pressure in gravity, and then the discs lose all the fluid.
但静水压力超过了重力渗透压，然后椎间盘失去了所有液体。
So it's a 15-minute effect.
所以这是15分钟的效果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I feel like every tissue in the body has been the target of an attempt to either restore its more youthful state or somehow augment its, I don't know, resilience over time.
我觉得身体的每个组织都成为了尝试的目标，要么恢复其更年轻的状态，要么以某种方式增强其（我不知道）随着时间的推移的恢复力。
So these days, we hear a lot about FDA-approved treatments using so-called platelet-rich plasma.
因此，如今，我们听到很多关于 FDA 批准的使用所谓富含血小板血浆的治疗方法。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
PRP injected into the knee or PRP injected into an ovary or PRP injected into whatever tissue it is that people are attempting to restore youthful state to.
将 PRP 注射到膝盖或将 PRP 注射到卵巢或将 PRP 注射到人们试图恢复年轻状态的任何组织中。
Is there any evidence for any compounds or injectable drugs that can restore the tensile strength and thickness to the discs?
是否有任何证据表明任何化合物或注射药物可以恢复椎间盘的拉伸强度和厚度？
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
I haven't seen any evidence of PRP doing so.
我还没有看到任何 PRP 这样做的证据。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Now, I didn't condemn PRP throughout the body.
现在，我并没有全身心谴责PRP。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
I swear by it for stubborn muscle tears.
我发誓它可以治疗顽固的肌肉撕裂。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
In one example.
在一个例子中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Ball and socket articular joints.
球窝关节。
There's no question.
毫无疑问。
Not all the time, but it can make a measurable difference, but not injected into the disc.
并非总是如此，但它可以产生可测量的差异，但不会注入椎间盘中。
So I just need to give a little bit of a context to this now.
所以我现在只需要提供一些背景信息。
If we take someone's disc who's never been traumatized, so they're a young person, they can expose their spine to mobility, be it yoga or ballet or whatever, and they will probably increase the range of motion and mobility.
如果我们拿一个从未受过外伤的人的椎间盘来说，那么他们是一个年轻人，他们可以让他们的脊柱暴露在活动中，无论是瑜伽还是芭蕾舞或其他什么，他们可能会增加运动范围和活动能力。
They can strength train and toughen the collagen and the end plate and build some bone.
它们可以进行力量训练，使胶原蛋白和终板变得坚韧，并构建一些骨骼。
And in other words, they can do both, Andrew.
换句话说，他们可以两者兼得，安德鲁。
They can increase the constituent strength of the various parts, and they can create mobility.
它们可以增加各部分的构成强度，并且可以创造机动性。
But once you have an injury to the disc and you lose a little bit of disc height, the world changes.
但是一旦你的椎间盘受伤并且你的椎间盘高度下降了一点，世界就会改变。
It's not so easy to adapt those full range of athletic abilities anymore.
适应这些全方位的运动能力不再那么容易了。
So now you're forced to make a compromise.
所以现在你被迫做出妥协。
Most people, we can get them to do one or the other.
对于大多数人，我们可以让他们做其中之一。
They can maintain mobility to play golf After a disc injury, or they wanna pop up on a surfboard.
他们可以在椎间盘受伤后保持活动能力去打高尔夫球，或者他们想在冲浪板上跳起来。
That's their thing in life.
这就是他们生活中的事情。
They just want to be able to surf.
他们只是想能够冲浪。
I'll say, "Good.
我会说：“很好。
We can manage.
我们可以管理。
It's no longer adapting.
已经不适应了。
We can manage you to achieve that, but you're going to have to back off the deadlifts and some of the strength exposures, because they will just further compromise the disc height of a damaged disc." And we can do the opposite.
我们可以帮助你实现这一目标，但你必须放弃硬拉和一些力量训练，因为它们只会进一步损害受损椎间盘的高度。”我们可以反其道而行之。
If you want to strength train and bear a load, you're going to have to give up the mobility.
如果你想进行力量训练并承受负重，你就必须放弃灵活性。
So that game, that dance with the devil, that comes after the back injury.
所以那场比赛，那场与魔鬼共舞的比赛，是在背部受伤之后发生的。
So I think the question was a little bit about adaptation.
所以我认为这个问题有点关于适应。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
If you haven't experienced disc damage yet, you have a lot more leeway to adapt your spine.
如果您还没有经历过椎间盘损伤，那么您就有更多的余地来适应您的脊柱。
After that, it becomes a game of management and encouraging an athletic ability.
之后，它就变成了管理和激发运动能力的游戏。
You become a little bit more unidimensional.
你变得更加单一维度。
And if you want a little bit of everything, okay, but you have to be very modest.
如果你什么都想要一点，也可以，但你必须非常谦虚。
You just have to try and achieve sufficient mobility, sufficient strength to do whatever, just to get through life.
你只需要努力获得足够的活动能力、足够的力量去做任何事情，就可以度过一生。
And it's a bit of a dance.
这有点像舞蹈。
So I don't know if that gives a bit of a context.
所以我不知道这是否提供了一些背景信息。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's perfect.
那就完美了。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Could you walk us through your biblical weak training with some examples of what one could select from the buffet of training options?
您能否向我们介绍一下您的圣经薄弱训练，并举例说明人们可以从众多训练选项中选择哪些内容？
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think-
我认为——
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Okay.
好的。
So let's say today I'm going into our clinic gym, and I will start with doing the big three.
假设今天我要进入我们的诊所健身房，我将从做三大动作开始。
So I will do bird dogs, and I'm going to work on good form, and then I'm going to put some dynamicism into it.
所以我会做鸟狗，我会以良好的形式进行工作，然后我会在其中加入一些动态主义。
I don't lift the leg so much, I push the heel away, and it really causes you to lock the core to create the proximal stability, and then pushing the heel away really engages the glutes and hamstrings.
我不会把腿抬得太高，而是将脚后跟推开，这确实会导致你锁定核心以创造近端稳定性，然后将脚后跟推开真正会刺激臀肌和腿筋。
Then I draw small squares.
然后我画小方块。
I square out with the hand and foot, down towards the midline, and up.
我用手和脚摆成方形，向下朝中线，然后向上。
So now I'm creating a little bit of a disassociation through the ball and socket joints with I want, which is what I want, with the core control.
所以现在我通过球窝关节与我想要的核心控制产生一点分离。
So that is translatable.
所以这是可以翻译的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
We did an experiment with the Pensacola Fire Department, by the way, where those firefighters who were trained with a coach who explained why they were insisting on certain exercise forms.
顺便说一句，我们在彭萨科拉消防局做了一个实验，那些消防员接受了教练的培训，教练解释了为什么他们坚持某些锻炼形式。
We measured them doing fire ground tasks before the training sessions.
我们在训练课程之前测量了他们执行火场任务的情况。
In other words, we measured them putting up a fire ladder, advancing a loaded fire hose, which is a tremendous reactive push, as you know.
换句话说，我们测量了他们架起消防梯、推进装载的消防水龙带，如你所知，这是一个巨大的反应性推动。
Piking open an elevator door, chopping a hole in a burning roof.
用长矛打开电梯门，在燃烧的屋顶上凿出一个洞。
Then half the group trained with this attention to exercise form, and we explained the principles to them.
然后一半的人以这种注重锻炼的方式进行训练，我们向他们解释了原理。
And then the other half of the firefighters had trainers who were more like cheerleaders, trying to get them to do more reps and encouraging them.
然后另一半消防员的教练更像啦啦队员，试图让他们做更多的动作并鼓励他们。
Both groups got fit, and then we measured them all again out on the fire ground.
两组人都恢复健康，然后我们在火场上再次对他们进行了测量。
Remember now, we never trained them how to do the fire ground tasks.
请记住，我们从未训练过他们如何完成火场任务。
They went back to the fire ground.
他们又回到了火场。
Those who trained with the cheerleader types of, "Oh, just do more reps," had more known injury markers.
那些接受拉拉队长式训练的人，“哦，多做几次”，有更多已知的损伤标记。
Do you know valgus collapse of the knee is a very strong predictor of future risk of ACL injury being one of them?
您是否知道膝盖外翻塌陷是未来 ACL 损伤风险的有力预测因素之一？
So there would be an example of that.
所以会有一个这样的例子。
Sagittal plane spine motion under load.
负载下的矢状面脊柱运动。
Every study that surveils groups who have to bend down through their spine and pick up more load has a much higher incidence.
每一项对那些必须弯腰并承担更多负荷的人群进行调查的研究，其发生率都要高得多。
Bill Marris' study showed 10 times the risk factor to having a disc injury if you do that.
比尔·马里斯 (Bill Marris) 的研究表明，如果这样做，椎间盘受伤的风险会增加 10 倍。
So I will then do side planks, rolling side planks.
所以我会做侧平板支撑，滚动侧平板支撑。
I will do a variety of abdominal exercises, the modified abdominal curl that you're familiar with, and I'll do some glute bridges.
我会做各种腹部练习，你熟悉的改良腹部卷曲，我还会做一些臀桥。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Then I'll do them one-legged, and then I'll get the arm involved and cross-body.
然后我会单腿练习，然后我会使用手臂并交叉身体。
I may put a kettlebell on my belly and do some hip thrusts that way, but a very mindful way.
我可能会在腹部放一个壶铃，然后做一些臀部推力，但这是一种非常谨慎的方式。
I'm focused my brain on squeezing the glutes, pushing the feet away, et cetera.
我的大脑集中在挤压臀肌、推开脚等等上。
Then I will probably stand up and do the strength patterns.
然后我可能会站起来做力量模式。
So I'll go over and do pushes.
所以我会过去做推力。
Now, consider a pushup, which rather than me load heavy with a bench press or something like that, I'll do pushups.
现在，考虑一下俯卧撑，我会做俯卧撑，而不是用卧推或类似的东西来负重。
You know the clapping pushup, where you dynamically explode up, clap, and go down.
您知道拍手俯卧撑，您可以动态地向上爆炸，拍手，然后下降。
I'll do a variety of those very dynamic power generating pushes.
我会做各种非常动态的发电推动动作。
Then I'll do some pulls.
然后我会做一些拉力动作。
I probably won't do a row with a barbell, but I'll do an inverted row pulling on a TRX, pronated grip, pulling into hammer grip, power breathing, and exploding.
我可能不会用杠铃划船，但我会做倒立划船，拉 TRX、旋前握把、拉成锤式握把、力量呼吸和爆发。
Really trying to get some power into it.
真的很想获得一些力量。
Then I will go to probably a split lunge, rear elevated foot squat.
然后我可能会进行分步弓步、后抬脚深蹲。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Lunge squat with the techniques that I showed you.
使用我向你展示的技巧进行弓步深蹲。
Hands interlaced behind my head, peacocking high, pushing back, pulling forward, and now doing the lunge squat.
双手交叉放在脑后，高高地翘起，向后推，向前拉，现在做弓箭步深蹲。
So that's challenging my balance, the whole extensor chain strength, et cetera.
所以这挑战了我的平衡、整个伸肌链的力量等等。
I might do some bilateral squats with my hips.
我可能会用臀部做一些双边深蹲。
I've broken my ankle.
我的脚踝骨折了。
I do heel elevated squats, usually with a banded knee, and sometimes I just use my brain and try and spread the floor.
我做脚后跟抬高深蹲，通常是膝盖绑带，有时我只是用我的大脑，尝试铺开地板。
Then I get into the auxiliaries.
然后我进入辅助。
So I broke C4.
所以我打破了C4。
I have to...
我必须...
Yeah, not a good thing.
是的，不是什么好事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Playing football?
踢足球？
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Hockey.
曲棍球。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hockey.
曲棍球。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Head down into the boards.
低头进入木板。
Classic.
经典的。
Anyway, I can't really do shearing exercises where I push against resistance.
无论如何，我无法真正进行对抗阻力的剪切练习。
That will get my neck a bit cranky, so I take out the shear.
这会让我的脖子有点暴躁，所以我拿出剪刀。
I get tall, I push my tongue hard to the roof of the mouth-
我变高了，我用力把舌头顶到上颚——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
...
...
and I grimace.
我做了个鬼脸。
So now I've activated all the flexors, and I put my hands underneath, and I just push up isometrically.
所以现在我已经激活了所有的屈肌，我将双手放在下面，然后等长地向上推。
And I control that.
我控制着它。
So there's no shear anymore, but I've really started to build the flexor family.
所以不再有剪切力了，但我真的开始建立屈肌家族了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Keep your neck strong.
保持颈部强壮。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
It's important for me.
这对我来说很重要。
Yep.
是的。
Now, your chin poking.
现在，你的下巴戳起来了。
Retract.
缩回。
Now, push up.
现在，向上推。
You got it.
你明白了。
That's it.
就是这样。
Push your tongue.
推动你的舌头。
Yeah.
是的。
Don't go crazy.
别发疯。
And add a little bit of endurance to that.
并为此添加一点耐力。
I appreciate the neck work that you do, though, which I-
不过，我很欣赏你所做的颈部工作，我-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have a four-way neck machine, but I don't require one.
我有一台四向颈部机器，但我不需要。
I've actually found that taking a plate, and wrapping it in a towel, lying on one side, making sure to hook my foot under the wrench, and stabilize with my other hand on the ground, and then just gently-
事实上，我发现拿一个盘子，用毛巾包裹它，躺在一侧，确保将我的脚钩在扳手下，并用另一只手稳定在地面上，然后轻轻地-
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
doing repetitions.
做重复。
Jeff Cavaliere from Athlete X has a great set of videos on this-
来自 Athlete X 的 Jeff Cavaliere 有一组很棒的视频 -
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
where he really spells out the dangers of things like neck bridges.
他确实阐明了颈桥之类的危险。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They can be done-
他们可以做到——
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but there's a risk there that probably outweighs the potential benefits for most people.
但对于大多数人来说，存在的风险可能大于潜在的好处。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But every once in a while, I can't help myself, and I do some bridges-
但每隔一段时间，我就会控制不住自己，我会做一些桥梁——
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because I really enjoy them.
因为我真的很喜欢它们。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
If you're a wrestler at University of Iowa
如果您是爱荷华大学的摔跤手
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're doing bridges
你在做桥梁
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
...
...
you've been doing it for a good while.
你已经这样做有一段时间了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
You're probably okay doing neck bridges.
你做颈桥可能没问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I get teased for saying this too often, but the value of having a strong neck is just hard to overstate.
我因为经常说这句话而被嘲笑，但拥有坚强脖子的价值是怎么强调都不为过的。
You don't have to have a big neck, but a strong neck, for sake of stabilizing the whole shoulder girdle during pressing and pulling lifts, for posture, for feeling like your head is stably placed on your body.
你不必有一个大脖子，但要有一个强壮的脖子，以便在推举和拉举时稳定整个肩带，为了姿势，为了感觉你的头稳定地放在身体上。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Think of every pulling motion.
想想每一个拉动动作。
Where does it start?
从哪里开始？
The trapezius originates off the neck.
斜方肌起源于颈部。
Stack that flagpole and really get those muscles ready to pull.
堆叠旗杆，真正让肌肉做好拉动的准备。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
It requires a stiff, strong neck.
它需要一个僵硬、强壮的脖子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
So every strong puller-
所以每一位强力拉手——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
...
...
has that.
有那个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When my bulldog was alive, he had the larger neck in the house.
当我的斗牛犬还活着的时候，他在家里有较大的脖子。
But again, it's not about building size into the neck.
但同样，这并不是为了增加颈部的尺寸。
It's really that strength and stability-
真的就是那种力量和稳定——
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that I just think translates to so many things that are valuable.
我认为这可以转化为很多有价值的东西。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Anyway, I'll finish out my strength routine with some more auxiliaries.
不管怎样，我会用更多的辅助手段来完成我的力量训练。
People laugh at this.
人们对此大笑。
I call it swordplay.
我称之为剑术。
The amount of athletic gain that we've achieved with swordplay.
我们通过剑术获得的运动收益。
I take an iron bar, like the old Weider dumbbell weight.
我拿了一根铁棒，就像老韦德哑铃一样。
It'll be-
将会是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
...
...
an iron bar about that long, and I'll put maybe a two-pound weight on the end.
一根大约那么长的铁棒，我会在末端放一个两磅重的重物。
And then I grab it, and I do figure eights over here, over here, over here, around there.
然后我抓住它，我在这儿、这儿、这儿、那儿画出八字形。
You wouldn't believe I have professional hockey players in the NHL who say, "Wow, those figure eight swordplays, my wrist shot, my slap shot have..." Tour tennis players, "I've never had such power and finesse off the racket because of that swordplay exercise."
你不会相信 NHL 中的职业曲棍球运动员会说：“哇，那些 8 字形剑术，我的手腕击球，我的拍打击球......”巡回赛网球运动员，“因为剑术练习，我从来没有在球拍下拥有如此强大的力量和技巧。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
This is interesting.
这很有趣。
I love older exercise books, and recently I came across one called "Heavy Hands." This must be from the '70s.
我喜欢旧的练习本，最近我发现了一本叫做“重手”的练习本。这一定是上世纪70年代的事了。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the entire book was centered around people being encouraged to carry some dumbbells during exercise, not all the time, and doing some lunges or walking uphill and getting the weights out from their body.
整本书的中心内容是鼓励人们在锻炼时携带一些哑铃，而不是一直携带，并做一些弓步或上坡行走，以减轻身体的重量。
And I was kind of chuckling about it on the one hand, pun intended.
一方面我对此有点好笑，这是双关语。
But at the same time, we know based on a number of really good studies using neuroimaging and functional scoring of neural system function as one ages, that the innervation of some of the distal muscles and the fine control of the digits, the fingers and toes and toe spreading and things like that, even calf size and atrophy, are fairly reliable markers of the extent to which there's been degeneration of the upper motor neuron pathways, other brain areas, or not.
但与此同时，根据大量使用神经影像学和神经系统功能评分的非常好的研究，我们知道，一些远端肌肉的神经支配和手指、手指、脚趾和脚趾伸展等的精细控制，甚至小腿的大小和萎缩，是上运动神经元通路、其他大脑区域退化程度的相当可靠的标志。
So the idea of keeping the nervous system and neuromuscular connectivity youthful by "heavy hands" or maybe ankle weights, provided they're not going to induce injury, makes a lot of sense.
因此，通过“重拳”或脚踝负重来保持神经系统和神经肌肉连接年轻的想法是很有意义的，前提是它们不会引起伤害。
Weighting the most distal portion of our body in order to generate adaptations, I think is going to be something that returns to the kind of modern sphere of fitness and longevity.
我认为，对我们身体最远端的部分进行加权以产生适应，这将回归现代的健身和长寿领域。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
May I give you a couple of comments?
我可以给你一些评论吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Please.
请。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
That was fabulous.
那太棒了。
It's so much fun when I see someone getting out of their car and walking up to the clinic door, and I can see the muscle wasting on their calf, and they'll say, "Oh, I have to get out my EMG nerve conduction velocity scores here." I said, "Are you kidding me?
当我看到有人下车走到诊所门口时，我可以看到他们小腿上的肌肉萎缩，他们会说：“哦，我必须在这里拿出我的肌电图神经传导速度分数。”这是非常有趣的。我说：“你在开玩笑吧？
You telling me the doc needed to do an EMG conduction velocity and all they had to do was look at your leg?"
你告诉我医生需要做肌电图传导速度检查，而他们所要做的就是看你的腿？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
We know exactly the nerve roots that are deficit because I know exactly what serves those muscles that have wasted.
我们确切地知道有缺陷的神经根，因为我确切地知道什么服务于那些已经浪费的肌肉。
I mean, it's crazy how technology has made so many people oblivious to the signs that we all show.
我的意思是，技术让这么多人忽视了我们所表现出的迹象，这真是太疯狂了。
That was my first comment.
这是我的第一条评论。
But the second one was going back to the old-time books.
但第二个是回到旧时代的书籍。
I collect a lot of those, actually.
事实上，我收集了很多这样的东西。
I have quite a library of the old-time strength books, some from the 1800s.
我有一个相当多的图书馆，里面有很多旧时代的力量书籍，其中一些是 1800 年代的。
The old-
旧的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, wow
哦，哇
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
...
...
Inge book of strength, and oh, they're fabulous.
英格的力量之书，哦，它们太棒了。
Indian clubs.
印度俱乐部。
Are you familiar with Indian clubs?
你熟悉印度俱乐部吗？
So it's a wooden club that looks like a bowling pin, basically.
所以它基本上是一个看起来像保龄球瓶的木棍。
But some of the old style Indian clubs were this long.
但一些老式的印度球杆却有这么长。
Well, there's a great manual strength athlete that not too many people have heard of, John Brookfield.
嗯，有一位伟大的体力运动员，但没有多少人听说过，约翰·布鲁克菲尔德。
He lives in North Carolina.
他住在北卡罗来纳州。
Pinehurst, North Carolina.
北卡罗来纳州派恩赫斯特。
In Pinehurst, there's a sculpture of very heavy steel that John bent with his bare hands to make this sculpture with.
在派恩赫斯特，有一座非常重的钢制雕塑，是约翰徒手弯曲而成的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Goodness.
善良。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Yeah, he'll take heavy rebar and bend it and put on strength shows with his hands.
是的，他会拿起沉重的钢筋并将其弯曲，然后用手进行力量表演。
He's a fabulous fella, too, by the way.
顺便说一句，他也是一个很棒的人。
He's got a set of Indian clubs.
他有一套印度球杆。
I can hardly pick one up, but he just picks up this Indian club, and it was from some famous guy from the 1800s, and somehow he got the Indian clubs, and they're about this long, but he can just get them and play swordplay with very heavy Indian clubs.
我几乎无法拿起一根，但他只是拿起了这个印度球杆，它来自 1800 年代的某个著名人物，不知何故他得到了印度球杆，它们大约这么长，但他可以拿到它们并用非常重的印度球杆打剑。
There's actually a good friend of mine, he's an Australian fellow, Andrew Lock.
其实我有一个好朋友，他是澳大利亚人，Andrew Lock。
I don't know if you've ever heard of Andrew Lock.
我不知道你是否听说过安德鲁·洛克。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sounds familiar.
听起来很熟悉。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
And Andrew has collected kettlebells and Indian clubs from the old-timers.
安德鲁从老前辈那里收集了壶铃和印度球杆。
He's got quite a lovely collection in Melbourne, where he's from in Australia.
他来自澳大利亚，在墨尔本有很多可爱的收藏。
But they're wonderful exercises.
但它们是很棒的练习。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And none of these things require fancy equipment.
这些事情都不需要花哨的设备。
One could imagine just grabbing a hold of some other-
人们可以想象只是抓住其他人——
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Well, an iron bar.
嗯，一根铁棒。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, an iron bar.
是的，一根铁棒。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I really think there's something to this loading of the distal limbs cautiously, properly, but there's something there in terms of keeping the neural pathways healthy and alive, because we know they atrophy with age, and that explains in part the calf muscle atrophy, which, as you point out, is a well-known clinical marker for neurodegeneration.
我确实认为，谨慎、正确地对远端肢体施加负荷是有一定作用的，但在保持神经通路健康和活力方面也有一定作用，因为我们知道它们会随着年龄的增长而萎缩，这在一定程度上解释了小腿肌肉萎缩，正如你所指出的，这是神经退行性疾病的一个众所周知的临床标志。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, simply things, and you can certainly comment about this, I try and do things with my opposite hand.
嗯，简单的事情，你当然可以对此发表评论，我尝试用我的另一只手做事。
So today, I'm just going to brush my teeth, comb my hair with my opposite hand.
所以今天，我只是用另一只手刷牙、梳头。
Now, don't ask me to throw a ball because I'm a moron.
现在，不要因为我是个白痴而要求我扔球。
But if I'm splitting firewood, okay, it's 10 reps this way, 10 reps that way.
但如果我劈柴，好吧，这样重复 10 次，那样重复 10 次。
And that's all in an attempt to keep my brain as movement competent and dexterous as possible.
这一切都是为了让我的大脑尽可能保持运动能力和灵巧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, certainly when I resistance train, if I'm doing anything standing, I make it a point to stagger my stance.
嗯，当然，当我进行阻力训练时，如果我站着做任何事情，我都会注意错开我的立场。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And at the same time, to make sure that my belly button is pointing forward so that I generate some anti-rotation effort, so that most of my abdominal work can be placed within the workout for other things.
同时，确保我的肚脐指向前方，这样我就可以产生一些反旋转的力量，这样我的大部分腹部工作就可以放在其他事情的锻炼中。
I do some pikes and some direct abdominal work as well, and the roll-up and things of that sort that you've recommended.
我也做一些屈体训练和一些直接的腹部训练，以及你推荐的卷起和类似的动作。
But I find that from a coordination standpoint, and especially from balancing the musculature and the strength on both sides of the body, this is extremely important.
但我发现从协调的角度来看，特别是从平衡身体两侧的肌肉组织和力量来看，这是极其重要的。
And I know this because after years of skateboarding, where you push with one leg, that was when I was younger, boxing, where I'm traditional stance as opposed to southpaw, you start getting into all these imbalances.
我知道这一点，因为经过多年的滑板运动，你用单腿推动，那是我年轻的时候，拳击，我采用传统的立场而不是左撇子，你开始陷入所有这些不平衡。
That, and it goes way beyond anything aesthetic.
那，它远远超出了任何审美的范围。
The aesthetic stuff might concern certain people, but it was more the feeling that I could turn to my right very easily without pain.
某些人可能会关心美学问题，但更多的是我可以轻松地向右转而不会感到疼痛的感觉。
Turning to my left, I felt stiff, and it was just an imbalance in some of the muscles controlling anti-rotation.
向左转，我感到僵硬，这只是一些控制反旋转的肌肉不平衡。
So, I think that weaving asymmetric stance, weaving the requirement for symmetric balancing of the musculature on both sides of the midline just makes all the sense in the world to me, especially if one is going to be a regular exerciser, which hopefully people are.
因此，我认为编织不对称的姿势，编织中线两侧肌肉组织对称平衡的要求对我来说非常有意义，特别是如果一个人要成为一名经常锻炼的人，希望人们都是这样。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Well, if I can convince you to consider the Biblical training week, all of that fits into your mobility days.
好吧，如果我能说服您考虑圣经培训周，那么所有这些都适合您的流动日。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah, let's talk about those, because you talked about the strength days.
是的，我们来谈谈那些，因为你谈到了力量的日子。
What about the two days of mobility?
这两天的流动性怎么样？
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Well, given my history, I do thoracic spine extension.
嗯，考虑到我的病史，我会做胸椎伸展运动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
I do a little bit of neck work, hip mobility, but again, I have a certain capacity there that I can't overdrive.
我做了一些颈部工作、髋部活动，但同样，我有一定的能力，我不能超速。
And then once I've done the targeted ones, I just go through the motion of every joint-
然后一旦我完成了目标任务，我就完成每个关节的动作——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
...
...
and don't add load.
并且不增加负载。
And then I will do the footwork.
然后我会做步法。
So, with my background, I'll do a little bit of shadow boxing.
因此，根据我的背景，我会练习一点太极拳。
I'll play traditional southpaw, et cetera.
我会玩传统的左撇子等等。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you could just repeat the cardiovascular days, since in your-
如果你能重复心血管日，因为在你的-
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
It depends on the time of year.
这取决于一年中的时间。
I really like to be outside.
我真的很喜欢呆在外面。
So, if it's wintertime, and I, for some reason, couldn't go for a cross-country ski that day or whatnot, I will ride a stationary bike in the clinic.
所以，如果是冬天，而我由于某种原因不能去越野滑雪或其他什么的，我会在诊所骑固定自行车。
I'd prefer not to, but I will.
我宁愿不这样做，但我会的。
If it's summertime, I'm riding outside.
如果是夏天，我会在外面骑车。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
And I could kayak, swim, canoe, just go to the hills and walk with Tico, my dog, hard.
我可以划皮划艇、游泳、划独木舟，只是去山上和我的狗蒂科一起努力散步。
And that might be my cardiovascular that day.
那可能就是我那天的心血管。
And going back to the genetics, which is how we started this podcast, have you ever had your athletic panel done from a genetic base?
回到遗传学，这就是我们开始这个播客的方式，你是否曾经根据遗传基础完成过你的运动小组？
In other words, they look at your genes and determine what you're genetically good at and what you're genetically horrible at.
换句话说，他们会观察你的基因，并确定你在基因上擅长什么，在基因上不擅长什么。
Do you know that?
你知道吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know a few things that I'm horrible at.
我知道一些我不擅长的事情。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
But you haven't had it tested genetically?
但你还没有进行基因测试吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No.
不。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Okay.
好的。
I have.
我有。
And they gave me a panel of 10 athleticisms.
他们给了我一个由 10 项运动能力组成的小组。
Now, interestingly enough, if I didn't have my athletic panel, and you just asked me to check, am I good at this, or am I bad at it, and check somewhere in between, I would've got every single one 100% right.
现在，有趣的是，如果我没有我的运动小组，而你只是让我检查一下，我是否擅长于此，或者我是否不擅长，并检查介于两者之间的某个位置，我会得到每一个 100% 正确的结果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So, I know my abilities, and it aligns 100%.
所以，我知道自己的能力，而且百分百一致。
In other words, I'm ultra, which is the highest for grip strength.
换句话说，我是ultra，即握力最高的。
I always knew that they're a pair of hands, but if I got my hands on you in football, you weren't getting...
我一直都知道他们是一双手，但如果我在足球场上把手放在你身上，你就不会……
You know what I mean.
你知道我的意思。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
I've always had a very good grip strength.
我一直有很好的握力。
So genetically, that came through as ultra.
所以从基因上来说，这就是超级的。
And the other thing I was ultra at was I can be quick for the first 35 milliseconds.
我最擅长的另一件事是我可以在前 35 毫秒内保持快速。
Boom.
繁荣。
If you want something done like that, I can usually pop it.
如果你想要做那样的事情，我通常可以弹出它。
When I was playing hockey, typically it's a 45, 50 second anaerobic blast, and you sit down for three minutes, there's two more shifts, and then the coach taps you on the helmet, and I'm still breathing heavily.
当我打曲棍球时，通常是45、50秒的无氧爆发，你坐下三分钟，然后还有两个轮班，然后教练轻拍你的头盔，我仍然喘着粗气。
And my two line mates, they're ready to go again.
我的两个队友，他们已经准备好再次出发了。
I was terrible at recovering from an athletic anaerobic blast.
我在从运动无氧爆发中恢复的能力很差。
Guess what I'm the worst possible genetic category for?
猜猜我的基因类别最差可能是什么？
Recovery of heart rate.
心率恢复。
And I've worked with some of the best heart rate recovery people, and I'm hopeless at it.
我曾与一些最好的心率恢复人员一起工作过，但我对此感到绝望。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
I have a feeling I'm naturally inclined to do endurance work, because once I start running distance, I can just run and run, and then eventually it just feels like the stopping comes from, I don't know, some nagging little injury or something like that.
我有一种感觉，我天生倾向于进行耐力训练，因为一旦我开始跑步，我就可以一直跑啊跑，然后最终感觉停止是因为，我不知道，一些令人烦恼的小伤或类似的事情。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or pain.
或疼痛。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As opposed to anything stopping me from continuing to run.
而不是任何阻止我继续奔跑的事情。
Which is unfortunate because I tend to like the shorter workout type stuff.
这很不幸，因为我倾向于喜欢较短的锻炼类型。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it brings us back to what we were talking about earlier, trying to do a balance of those, and everything in between.
但这让我们回到了之前讨论的话题，试图在这些以及介于两者之间的一切之间取得平衡。
I love the biblical training week.
我喜欢圣经训练周。
And given that currently I've been doing three days of resistance training, total per week, and three days of cardiovascular training, all it requires is shifting one, each of those days toward mobility training, still taking the full day off each week, so.
考虑到目前我每周总共进行了三天的阻力训练，以及三天的心血管训练，所需要的只是将每一天转移到活动训练上，每周仍然休息一整天，所以。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Make sure you take that day off.
确保你那天休息。
You will be less painful with your joints, I predict.
我预测你的关节疼痛会减轻。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
When you're going into your 60s and 70s and, knock on wood, having a blast when you're 80.
当你进入 60 岁和 70 岁的时候，当你 80 岁的时候，敲敲木头，玩得很开心。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's the plan.
这就是计划。
Well, I've certainly had a blast today, Dr. McGill.
嗯，我今天玩得很开心，麦吉尔博士。
This has been amazing.
这真是太棒了。
You've given us such a wealth of knowledge about the back, its anatomy, neurology, the sources of pain for those that have back pain, avenues to relieve back pain, avenues for people to stave off back pain, including the big three, but not limited to the big three.
您为我们提供了有关背部的丰富知识，包括其解剖学、神经病学、背痛患者的疼痛来源、缓解背痛的途径、人们避免背痛的途径，包括三大知识，但不限于三大。
You also gave us a wonderful window into the precision with which you approach assessment.
您还为我们提供了一个了解您进行评估的精确度的绝佳窗口。
And during the introduction and also in the show note captions, I mention and link to the many clinicians that you've trained all over the world, so that if people want to try and access direct coaching and rehabilitation, they can do that.
在介绍和节目注释标题中，我提到并链接到您在世界各地接受过培训的许多临床医生，这样，如果人们想尝试获得直接指导和康复，他们就可以做到。
I also really appreciate the books you've written, and we linked to that as well, "Back Mechanic." And I really just appreciate your devotion to public education through your own channels, through your students, the many, many, many peer-reviewed papers that you've published.
我也非常感谢你写的书，我们也链接到了《背部机械师》。我真的很感谢您通过自己的渠道、通过您的学生以及您发表的许多、许多、许多同行评审论文对公共教育的奉献。
I can't overemphasize this enough.
我怎么强调都不为过。
You have a vast number of high-quality, peer-reviewed publications in these areas.
你们在这些领域拥有大量经过同行评审的高质量出版物。
And it's just wonderful to sit across from somebody who's devoted their professional life to this really important area that so many people confront, whether or not they be athletes or conventional exercisers, or just people who are experiencing some pain or want to get in shape, or all of the above.
坐在一个将自己的职业生涯奉献给这个很多人都面临的非常重要领域的人对面真是太棒了，无论他们是运动员还是传统锻炼者，或者只是正在经历一些疼痛或想要保持身材的人，或者以上所有的人。
So on behalf of myself and everyone listening and watching, I just want to extend a really deep, heartfelt, and genuine thank you.
因此，我谨代表我自己以及所有聆听和观看的人，致以深深、衷心和真诚的感谢。
Thank you so much.
太感谢了。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
Well, thank you, Professor Huberman.
嗯，谢谢你，胡伯曼教授。
You know this, but I'm going to mention this for the listeners.
你知道这一点，但我要向听众提及这一点。
You have done a great deed in changing the behavior of many people, myself included, and my family.
你做了一件伟大的事，改变了许多人的行为，包括我自己和我的家人。
It's not the easiest thing to do because there's always the critics, but you have done a tremendous service, and I thank you for that as well.
这不是最容易做的事情，因为总是有批评者，但你们做了巨大的服务，我也为此感谢你们。
And I thank you personally because you've improved my life, and hopefully I'll have a few more years to enjoy it, but thank you.
我个人感谢你，因为你改善了我的生活，希望我还能再享受几年，但谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, thank you for those words.
嗯，谢谢你的这些话。
It's a labor of love for me, and that's extremely gratifying to hear.
这对我来说是一种爱的劳动，听到这个消息我感到非常高兴。
And God willing, I'll be in your kind of shape at your age.
上帝保佑，我在你这个年纪也会有你这样的身材。
Let's do this again.
让我们再做一次。
Dr. Stuart McGill:
斯图尔特·麦吉尔博士：
I would love it.
我会喜欢它。
Thanks.
谢谢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Stuart McGill.
感谢您参加今天与 Stuart McGill 博士的讨论。
To learn more about his work, as well as to find a link to his excellent book, "Back Mechanic: The Step-by-Step McGill Method to Fix Back Pain," please see the show note caption.
要了解有关他的工作的更多信息，以及找到他的优秀书籍“背部机械师：解决背部疼痛的逐步麦吉尔方法”的链接，请参阅节目注释标题。
Also in the caption, you'll find a link to backfitpro.com, which is Dr. McGill's website, where he has links to specific practitioners you can work with if you're experiencing back pain.
另外，在标题中，您还可以找到 backfitpro.com 的链接，这是 McGill 博士的网站，其中提供了特定医生的链接，如果您遇到背痛，可以与您合作。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
Please also subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify and Apple.
另请在 Spotify 和 Apple 上订阅该播客。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。
Please also check out the sponsors that I mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看我在今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast, or topics or guests you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab Podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问或对播客有意见，或者您希望我在胡伯曼实验室播客中考虑的主题或嘉宾，请将这些内容放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这本书是我花了五年多时间编写的，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验。
And it covers protocols for everything from sleep, to exercise, to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
它涵盖了从睡眠、锻炼、压力控制、与注意力和动机相关的各个方面的协议，当然，我还为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." If you're not already following me on social media, I am hubermanlab on all social media channels.
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体渠道上的 hubermanlab。
So that's Instagram, X, formerly known as Twitter, Threads, LinkedIn, and Facebook.
这就是 Instagram、X，以前称为 Twitter、Threads、LinkedIn 和 Facebook。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlap with the contents of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the contents of the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容不同。
Again, that's hubermanlab on all social media channels.
同样，这是所有社交媒体渠道上的 hubermanlab。
If you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, our Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries, as well as protocols in the form of brief PDFs of one to three pages, where I spell out the specific dos and in some cases do nots, but mostly dos related to things like how to optimize your sleep, how to regulate your dopamine levels.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，我们的神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及一到三页的简短 PDF 形式的协议，其中我会详细说明具体的注意事项和在某些情况下不应该注意的事项，但主要与如何优化睡眠、如何调节多巴胺水平等事项相关。
There's a protocol for neuroplasticity and learning, as well as protocols for fitness, which we call the Foundational Fitness Protocol, includes everything, sets, reps, cardiovascular training.
有神经可塑性和学习的协议，以及健身协议，我们称之为基础健身协议，包括所有内容、组数、次数、心血管训练。
Again, all available completely zero cost.
再次强调，所有这些都是完全零成本的。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab, scroll down to Newsletter, and provide us your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到菜单选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后向我们提供您的电子邮件。
But I should point out, we do not share your email with anybody.
但我应该指出，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Stuart McGill.
再次感谢您参加今天与 Stuart McGill 博士的讨论。
And last, but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但同样重要的是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。